diff options
Diffstat (limited to '1681.txt')
| -rw-r--r-- | 1681.txt | 1240 |
1 files changed, 1240 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/1681.txt b/1681.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..616cbac --- /dev/null +++ b/1681.txt @@ -0,0 +1,1240 @@ +The Project Gutenberg EBook of Eryxias, by An Imitator of Plato + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: Eryxias + +Author: An Imitator of Plato + +Translator: Benjamin Jowett + +Posting Date: November 6, 2008 [EBook #1681] +Release Date: March, 1999 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ERYXIAS *** + + + + +Produced by Sue Asscher + + + + + +ERYXIAS + +By a Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II) + + + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + + + +APPENDIX II. + +The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not +mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim +to be ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be +assigned probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when +his writings were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit +considerable originality, and are remarkable for containing several +thoughts of the sort which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient, +and which therefore have a peculiar interest for us. The Second +Alcibiades shows that the difficulties about prayer which have perplexed +Christian theologians were not unknown among the followers of Plato. +The Eryxias was doubted by the ancients themselves: yet it may claim the +distinction of being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one which +anticipates in the most striking manner the modern science of political +economy and gives an abstract form to some of its principal doctrines. + +For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend +and secretary, Mr. Knight. + +That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a +genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, +and was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is +poor and weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and +there is a certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which +is very un-Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the +poets:--the remark that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is +uncommonly difficult to understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of +Homer, are entirely in the spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). +The characters are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and +preaches too much, while Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There +are traces of Stoic influence in the general tone and phraseology of the +Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): +and the writer seems to have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato +(compare Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather clumsily +introduced, and two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. +The reference to the death of Archelaus as having occurred 'quite +lately' is only a fiction, probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the +story of Archelaus is told, and a similar phrase occurs;--ta gar echthes +kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages which +are either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed. But there is a modern +interest in the subject of the dialogue; and it is a good example of +a short spurious work, which may be attributed to the second or third +century before Christ. + + + + +INTRODUCTION. + +Much cannot be said in praise of the style or conception of the Eryxias. +It is frequently obscure; like the exercise of a student, it is full +of small imitations of Plato:--Phaeax returning from an expedition to +Sicily (compare Socrates in the Charmides from the army at Potidaea), +the figure of the game at draughts, borrowed from the Republic, etc. It +has also in many passages the ring of sophistry. On the other hand, the +rather unhandsome treatment which is exhibited towards Prodicus is quite +unlike the urbanity of Plato. + +Yet there are some points in the argument which are deserving of +attention. (1) That wealth depends upon the need of it or demand for +it, is the first anticipation in an abstract form of one of the great +principles of modern political economy, and the nearest approach to it +to be found in an ancient writer. (2) The resolution of wealth into +its simplest implements going on to infinity is a subtle and refined +thought. (3) That wealth is relative to circumstances is a sound +conception. (4) That the arts and sciences which receive payment are +likewise to be comprehended under the notion of wealth, also touches a +question of modern political economy. (5) The distinction of post hoc +and propter hoc, often lost sight of in modern as well as in ancient +times. These metaphysical conceptions and distinctions show considerable +power of thought in the writer, whatever we may think of his merits as +an imitator of Plato. + + + + +ERYXIAS + + +PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Eryxias, Erasistratus, Critias. + +SCENE: The portico of a temple of Zeus. + + +It happened by chance that Eryxias the Steirian was walking with me in +the Portico of Zeus the Deliverer, when there came up to us Critias +and Erasistratus, the latter the son of Phaeax, who was the nephew of +Erasistratus. Now Erasistratus had just arrived from Sicily and that +part of the world. As they approached, he said, Hail, Socrates! + +SOCRATES: The same to you, I said; have you any good news from Sicily to +tell us? + +ERASISTRATUS: Most excellent. But, if you please, let us first sit down; +for I am tired with my yesterday's journey from Megara. + +SOCRATES: Gladly, if that is your desire. + +ERASISTRATUS: What would you wish to hear first? he said. What the +Sicilians are doing, or how they are disposed towards our city? To my +mind, they are very like wasps: so long as you only cause them a little +annoyance they are quite unmanageable; you must destroy their nests +if you wish to get the better of them. And in a similar way, the +Syracusans, unless we set to work in earnest, and go against them with +a great expedition, will never submit to our rule. The petty injuries +which we at present inflict merely irritate them enough to make them +utterly intractable. And now they have sent ambassadors to Athens, and +intend, I suspect, to play us some trick.--While we were talking, the +Syracusan envoys chanced to go by, and Erasistratus, pointing to one of +them, said to me, That, Socrates, is the richest man in all Italy and +Sicily. For who has larger estates or more land at his disposal to +cultivate if he please? And they are of a quality, too, finer than any +other land in Hellas. Moreover, he has all the things which go to make +up wealth, slaves and horses innumerable, gold and silver without end. + +I saw that he was inclined to expatiate on the riches of the man; so I +asked him, Well, Erasistratus, and what sort of character does he bear +in Sicily? + +ERASISTRATUS: He is esteemed to be, and really is, the wickedest of +all the Sicilians and Italians, and even more wicked than he is rich; +indeed, if you were to ask any Sicilian whom he thought to be the worst +and the richest of mankind, you would never hear any one else named. + +I reflected that we were speaking, not of trivial matters, but about +wealth and virtue, which are deemed to be of the greatest moment, and +I asked Erasistratus whom he considered the wealthier,--he who was the +possessor of a talent of silver or he who had a field worth two talents? + +ERASISTRATUS: The owner of the field. + +SOCRATES: And on the same principle he who had robes and bedding and +such things which are of greater value to him than to a stranger would +be richer than the stranger? + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: And if any one gave you a choice, which of these would you +prefer? + +ERASISTRATUS: That which was most valuable. + +SOCRATES: In which way do you think you would be the richer? + +ERASISTRATUS: By choosing as I said. + +SOCRATES: And he appears to you to be the richest who has goods of the +greatest value? + +ERASISTRATUS: He does. + +SOCRATES: And are not the healthy richer than the sick, since health is +a possession more valuable than riches to the sick? Surely there is no +one who would not prefer to be poor and well, rather than to have all +the King of Persia's wealth and to be ill. And this proves that men set +health above wealth, else they would never choose the one in preference +to the other. + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: And if anything appeared to be more valuable than health, he +would be the richest who possessed it? + +ERASISTRATUS: He would. + +SOCRATES: Suppose that some one came to us at this moment and were to +ask, Well, Socrates and Eryxias and Erasistratus, can you tell me what +is of the greatest value to men? Is it not that of which the possession +will best enable a man to advise how his own and his friend's affairs +should be administered?--What will be our reply? + +ERASISTRATUS: I should say, Socrates, that happiness was the most +precious of human possessions. + +SOCRATES: Not a bad answer. But do we not deem those men who are most +prosperous to be the happiest? + +ERASISTRATUS: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: And are they not most prosperous who commit the fewest errors +in respect either of themselves or of other men? + +ERASISTRATUS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And they who know what is evil and what is good; what should +be done and what should be left undone;--these behave the most wisely +and make the fewest mistakes? + +Erasistratus agreed to this. + +SOCRATES: Then the wisest and those who do best and the most fortunate +and the richest would appear to be all one and the same, if wisdom is +really the most valuable of our possessions? + +Yes, said Eryxias, interposing, but what use would it be if a man had +the wisdom of Nestor and wanted the necessaries of life, food and drink +and clothes and the like? Where would be the advantage of wisdom then? +Or how could he be the richest of men who might even have to go begging, +because he had not wherewithal to live? + +I thought that what Eryxias was saying had some weight, and I +replied, Would the wise man really suffer in this way, if he were so +ill-provided; whereas if he had the house of Polytion, and the house +were full of gold and silver, he would lack nothing? + +ERYXIAS: Yes; for then he might dispose of his property and obtain in +exchange what he needed, or he might sell it for money with which he +could supply his wants and in a moment procure abundance of everything. + +SOCRATES: True, if he could find some one who preferred such a house to +the wisdom of Nestor. But if there are persons who set great store by +wisdom like Nestor's and the advantages accruing from it, to sell these, +if he were so disposed, would be easier still. Or is a house a most +useful and necessary possession, and does it make a great difference in +the comfort of life to have a mansion like Polytion's instead of living +in a shabby little cottage, whereas wisdom is of small use and it is +of no importance whether a man is wise or ignorant about the highest +matters? Or is wisdom despised of men and can find no buyers, although +cypress wood and marble of Pentelicus are eagerly bought by numerous +purchasers? Surely the prudent pilot or the skilful physician, or the +artist of any kind who is proficient in his art, is more worth than the +things which are especially reckoned among riches; and he who can advise +well and prudently for himself and others is able also to sell the +product of his art, if he so desire. + +Eryxias looked askance, as if he had received some unfair treatment, and +said, I believe, Socrates, that if you were forced to speak the +truth, you would declare that you were richer than Callias the son of +Hipponicus. And yet, although you claimed to be wiser about things of +real importance, you would not any the more be richer than he. + +I dare say, Eryxias, I said, that you may regard these arguments of ours +as a kind of game; you think that they have no relation to facts, but +are like the pieces in the game of draughts which the player can move +in such a way that his opponents are unable to make any countermove. +(Compare Republic.) And perhaps, too, as regards riches you are of +opinion that while facts remain the same, there are arguments, no matter +whether true or false, which enable the user of them to prove that the +wisest and the richest are one and the same, although he is in the wrong +and his opponents are in the right. There would be nothing strange in +this; it would be as if two persons were to dispute about letters, one +declaring that the word Socrates began with an S, the other that it +began with an A, and the latter could gain the victory over the former. + +Eryxias glanced at the audience, laughing and blushing at once, as if +he had had nothing to do with what had just been said, and replied,--No, +indeed, Socrates, I never supposed that our arguments should be of a +kind which would never convince any one of those here present or be of +advantage to them. For what man of sense could ever be persuaded that +the wisest and the richest are the same? The truth is that we are +discussing the subject of riches, and my notion is that we should +argue respecting the honest and dishonest means of acquiring them, and, +generally, whether they are a good thing or a bad. + +Very good, I said, and I am obliged to you for the hint: in future we +will be more careful. But why do not you yourself, as you introduced the +argument, and do not think that the former discussion touched the point +at issue, tell us whether you consider riches to be a good or an evil? + +I am of opinion, he said, that they are a good. He was about to add +something more, when Critias interrupted him:--Do you really suppose so, +Eryxias? + +Certainly, replied Eryxias; I should be mad if I did not: and I do not +fancy that you would find any one else of a contrary opinion. + +And I, retorted Critias, should say that there is no one whom I could +not compel to admit that riches are bad for some men. But surely, if +they were a good, they could not appear bad for any one? + +Here I interposed and said to them: If you two were having an argument +about equitation and what was the best way of riding, supposing that I +knew the art myself, I should try to bring you to an agreement. For +I should be ashamed if I were present and did not do what I could +to prevent your difference. And I should do the same if you were +quarrelling about any other art and were likely, unless you agreed on +the point in dispute, to part as enemies instead of as friends. But now, +when we are contending about a thing of which the usefulness continues +during the whole of life, and it makes an enormous difference whether we +are to regard it as beneficial or not,--a thing, too, which is esteemed +of the highest importance by the Hellenes:--(for parents, as soon as +their children are, as they think, come to years of discretion, urge +them to consider how wealth may be acquired, since by riches the value +of a man is judged):--When, I say, we are thus in earnest, and you, +who agree in other respects, fall to disputing about a matter of such +moment, that is, about wealth, and not merely whether it is black or +white, light or heavy, but whether it is a good or an evil, whereby, +although you are now the dearest of friends and kinsmen, the most bitter +hatred may arise betwixt you, I must hinder your dissension to the best +of my power. If I could, I would tell you the truth, and so put an end +to the dispute; but as I cannot do this, and each of you supposes that +you can bring the other to an agreement, I am prepared, as far as my +capacity admits, to help you in solving the question. Please, therefore, +Critias, try to make us accept the doctrines which you yourself +entertain. + +CRITIAS: I should like to follow up the argument, and will ask Eryxias +whether he thinks that there are just and unjust men? + +ERYXIAS: Most decidedly. + +CRITIAS: And does injustice seem to you an evil or a good? + +ERYXIAS: An evil. + +CRITIAS: Do you consider that he who bribes his neighbour's wife and +commits adultery with her, acts justly or unjustly, and this although +both the state and the laws forbid? + +ERYXIAS: Unjustly. + +CRITIAS: And if the wicked man has wealth and is willing to spend it, +he will carry out his evil purposes? whereas he who is short of means +cannot do what he fain would, and therefore does not sin? In such a +case, surely, it is better that a person should not be wealthy, if his +poverty prevents the accomplishment of his desires, and his desires are +evil? Or, again, should you call sickness a good or an evil? + +ERYXIAS: An evil. + +CRITIAS: Well, and do you think that some men are intemperate? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +CRITIAS: Then, if it is better for his health that the intemperate man +should refrain from meat and drink and other pleasant things, but he +cannot owing to his intemperance, will it not also be better that he +should be too poor to gratify his lust rather than that he should have +a superabundance of means? For thus he will not be able to sin, although +he desire never so much. + +Critias appeared to be arguing so admirably that Eryxias, if he had not +been ashamed of the bystanders, would probably have got up and struck +him. For he thought that he had been robbed of a great possession when +it became obvious to him that he had been wrong in his former opinion +about wealth. I observed his vexation, and feared that they would +proceed to abuse and quarrelling: so I said,--I heard that very argument +used in the Lyceum yesterday by a wise man, Prodicus of Ceos; but the +audience thought that he was talking mere nonsense, and no one could +be persuaded that he was speaking the truth. And when at last a certain +talkative young gentleman came in, and, taking his seat, began to laugh +and jeer at Prodicus, tormenting him and demanding an explanation of his +argument, he gained the ear of the audience far more than Prodicus. + +Can you repeat the discourse to us? Said Erasistratus. + +SOCRATES: If I can only remember it, I will. The youth began by asking +Prodicus, In what way did he think that riches were a good and in what +an evil? Prodicus answered, as you did just now, that they were a good +to good men and to those who knew in what way they should be employed, +while to the bad and the ignorant they were an evil. The same is true, +he went on to say, of all other things; men make them to be what they +are themselves. The saying of Archilochus is true:-- + +'Men's thoughts correspond to the things which they meet with.' + +Well, then, replied the youth, if any one makes me wise in that wisdom +whereby good men become wise, he must also make everything else good to +me. Not that he concerns himself at all with these other things, but he +has converted my ignorance into wisdom. If, for example, a person teach +me grammar or music, he will at the same time teach me all that relates +to grammar or music, and so when he makes me good, he makes things good +to me. + +Prodicus did not altogether agree: still he consented to what was said. + +And do you think, said the youth, that doing good things is like +building a house,--the work of human agency; or do things remain what +they were at first, good or bad, for all time? + +Prodicus began to suspect, I fancy, the direction which the argument +was likely to take, and did not wish to be put down by a mere stripling +before all those present:--(if they two had been alone, he would not +have minded):--so he answered, cleverly enough: I think that doing good +things is a work of human agency. + +And is virtue in your opinion, Prodicus, innate or acquired by +instruction? + +The latter, said Prodicus. + +Then you would consider him a simpleton who supposed that he could +obtain by praying to the Gods the knowledge of grammar or music or +any other art, which he must either learn from another or find out for +himself? + +Prodicus agreed to this also. + +And when you pray to the Gods that you may do well and receive good, you +mean by your prayer nothing else than that you desire to become good and +wise:--if, at least, things are good to the good and wise and evil to +the evil. But in that case, if virtue is acquired by instruction, it +would appear that you only pray to be taught what you do not know. + +Hereupon I said to Prodicus that it was no misfortune to him if he +had been proved to be in error in supposing that the Gods immediately +granted to us whatever we asked:--if, I added, whenever you go up to +the Acropolis you earnestly entreat the Gods to grant you good things, +although you know not whether they can yield your request, it is as +though you went to the doors of the grammarian and begged him, although +you had never made a study of the art, to give you a knowledge of +grammar which would enable you forthwith to do the business of a +grammarian. + +While I was speaking, Prodicus was preparing to retaliate upon his +youthful assailant, intending to employ the argument of which you have +just made use; for he was annoyed to have it supposed that he offered a +vain prayer to the Gods. But the master of the gymnasium came to him and +begged him to leave because he was teaching the youths doctrines which +were unsuited to them, and therefore bad for them. + +I have told you this because I want you to understand how men are +circumstanced in regard to philosophy. Had Prodicus been present and +said what you have said, the audience would have thought him raving, and +he would have been ejected from the gymnasium. But you have argued so +excellently well that you have not only persuaded your hearers, but have +brought your opponent to an agreement. For just as in the law courts, +if two witnesses testify to the same fact, one of whom seems to be an +honest fellow and the other a rogue, the testimony of the rogue often +has the contrary effect on the judges' minds to what he intended, while +the same evidence if given by the honest man at once strikes them as +perfectly true. And probably the audience have something of the same +feeling about yourself and Prodicus; they think him a Sophist and a +braggart, and regard you as a gentleman of courtesy and worth. For they +do not pay attention to the argument so much as to the character of the +speaker. + +But truly, Socrates, said Erasistratus, though you may be joking, +Critias does seem to me to be saying something which is of weight. + +SOCRATES: I am in profound earnest, I assure you. But why, as you have +begun your argument so prettily, do you not go on with the rest? There +is still something lacking, now you have agreed that (wealth) is a good +to some and an evil to others. It remains to enquire what constitutes +wealth; for unless you know this, you cannot possibly come to an +understanding as to whether it is a good or an evil. I am ready to +assist you in the enquiry to the utmost of my power: but first let him +who affirms that riches are a good, tell us what, in his opinion, is +wealth. + +ERASISTRATUS: Indeed, Socrates, I have no notion about wealth beyond +that which men commonly have. I suppose that wealth is a quantity of +money (compare Arist. Pol.); and this, I imagine, would also be Critias' +definition. + +SOCRATES: Then now we have to consider, What is money? Or else later +on we shall be found to differ about the question. For instance, the +Carthaginians use money of this sort. Something which is about the size +of a stater is tied up in a small piece of leather: what it is, no one +knows but the makers. A seal is next set upon the leather, which then +passes into circulation, and he who has the largest number of such +pieces is esteemed the richest and best off. And yet if any one among us +had a mass of such coins he would be no wealthier than if he had so many +pebbles from the mountain. At Lacedaemon, again, they use iron by weight +which has been rendered useless: and he who has the greatest mass of +such iron is thought to be the richest, although elsewhere it has +no value. In Ethiopia engraved stones are employed, of which a +Lacedaemonian could make no use. Once more, among the Nomad Scythians a +man who owned the house of Polytion would not be thought richer than one +who possessed Mount Lycabettus among ourselves. And clearly those things +cannot all be regarded as possessions; for in some cases the possessors +would appear none the richer thereby: but, as I was saying, some one of +them is thought in one place to be money, and the possessors of it +are the wealthy, whereas in some other place it is not money, and the +ownership of it does not confer wealth; just as the standard of morals +varies, and what is honourable to some men is dishonourable to others. +And if we wish to enquire why a house is valuable to us but not to the +Scythians, or why the Carthaginians value leather which is worthless to +us, or the Lacedaemonians find wealth in iron and we do not, can we not +get an answer in some such way as this: Would an Athenian, who had a +thousand talents weight of the stones which lie about in the Agora and +which we do not employ for any purpose, be thought to be any the richer? + +ERASISTRATUS: He certainly would not appear so to me. + +SOCRATES: But if he possessed a thousand talents weight of some precious +stone, we should say that he was very rich? + +ERASISTRATUS: Of course. + +SOCRATES: The reason is that the one is useless and the other useful? + +ERASISTRATUS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And in the same way among the Scythians a house has no value +because they have no use for a house, nor would a Scythian set so much +store on the finest house in the world as on a leather coat, because he +could use the one and not the other. Or again, the Carthaginian coinage +is not wealth in our eyes, for we could not employ it, as we can silver, +to procure what we need, and therefore it is of no use to us. + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: What is useful to us, then, is wealth, and what is useless to +us is not wealth? + +But how do you mean, Socrates? said Eryxias, interrupting. Do we not +employ in our intercourse with one another speech and violence (?) and +various other things? These are useful and yet they are not wealth. + +SOCRATES: Clearly we have not yet answered the question, What is +wealth? That wealth must be useful, to be wealth at all,--thus much is +acknowledged by every one. But what particular thing is wealth, if not +all things? Let us pursue the argument in another way; and then we may +perhaps find what we are seeking. What is the use of wealth, and for +what purpose has the possession of riches been invented,--in the sense, +I mean, in which drugs have been discovered for the cure of disease? +Perhaps in this way we may throw some light on the question. It appears +to be clear that whatever constitutes wealth must be useful, and that +wealth is one class of useful things; and now we have to enquire, What +is the use of those useful things which constitute wealth? For all +things probably may be said to be useful which we use in production, +just as all things which have life are animals, but there is a special +kind of animal which we call 'man.' Now if any one were to ask us, What +is that of which, if we were rid, we should not want medicine and the +instruments of medicine, we might reply that this would be the case if +disease were absent from our bodies and either never came to them at all +or went away again as soon as it appeared; and we may therefore conclude +that medicine is the science which is useful for getting rid of disease. +But if we are further asked, What is that from which, if we were free, +we should have no need of wealth? can we give an answer? If we have +none, suppose that we restate the question thus:--If a man could live +without food or drink, and yet suffer neither hunger nor thirst, would +he want either money or anything else in order to supply his needs? + +ERYXIAS: He would not. + +SOCRATES: And does not this apply in other cases? If we did not want for +the service of the body the things of which we now stand in need, and +heat and cold and the other bodily sensations were unperceived by us, +there would be no use in this so-called wealth, if no one, that is, +had any necessity for those things which now make us wish for wealth in +order that we may satisfy the desires and needs of the body in respect +of our various wants. And therefore if the possession of wealth is +useful in ministering to our bodily wants, and bodily wants were unknown +to us, we should not need wealth, and possibly there would be no such +thing as wealth. + +ERYXIAS: Clearly not. + +SOCRATES: Then our conclusion is, as would appear, that wealth is what +is useful to this end? + +Eryxias once more gave his assent, but the small argument considerably +troubled him. + +SOCRATES: And what is your opinion about another question:--Would you +say that the same thing can be at one time useful and at another useless +for the production of the same result? + +ERYXIAS: I cannot say more than that if we require the same thing to +produce the same result, then it seems to me to be useful; if not, not. + +SOCRATES: Then if without the aid of fire we could make a brazen statue, +we should not want fire for that purpose; and if we did not want it, it +would be useless to us? And the argument applies equally in other cases. + +ERYXIAS: Clearly. + +SOCRATES: And therefore conditions which are not required for the +existence of a thing are not useful for the production of it? + +ERYXIAS: Of course not. + +SOCRATES: And if without gold or silver or anything else which we do +not use directly for the body in the way that we do food and drink and +bedding and houses,--if without these we could satisfy the wants of the +body, they would be of no use to us for that purpose? + +ERYXIAS: They would not. + +SOCRATES: They would no longer be regarded as wealth, because they are +useless, whereas that would be wealth which enabled us to obtain what +was useful to us? + +ERYXIAS: O Socrates, you will never be able to persuade me that gold +and silver and similar things are not wealth. But I am very strongly of +opinion that things which are useless to us are not wealth, and that the +money which is useful for this purpose is of the greatest use; not that +these things are not useful towards life, if by them we can procure +wealth. + +SOCRATES: And how would you answer another question? There are persons, +are there not, who teach music and grammar and other arts for pay, and +thus procure those things of which they stand in need? + +ERYXIAS: There are. + +SOCRATES: And these men by the arts which they profess, and in exchange +for them, obtain the necessities of life just as we do by means of gold +and silver? + +ERYXIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: Then if they procure by this means what they want for the +purposes of life, that art will be useful towards life? For do we not +say that silver is useful because it enables us to supply our bodily +needs? + +ERYXIAS: We do. + +SOCRATES: Then if these arts are reckoned among things useful, the arts +are wealth for the same reason as gold and silver are, for, clearly, +the possession of them gives wealth. Yet a little while ago we found it +difficult to accept the argument which proved that the wisest are the +wealthiest. But now there seems no escape from this conclusion. Suppose +that we are asked, 'Is a horse useful to everybody?' will not our reply +be, 'No, but only to those who know how to use a horse?' + +ERYXIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And so, too, physic is not useful to every one, but only to +him who knows how to use it? + +ERYXIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And the same is the case with everything else? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then gold and silver and all the other elements which are +supposed to make up wealth are only useful to the person who knows how +to use them? + +ERYXIAS: Exactly. + +SOCRATES: And were we not saying before that it was the business of a +good man and a gentleman to know where and how anything should be used? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The good and gentle, therefore will alone have profit from +these things, supposing at least that they know how to use them. But if +so, to them only will they seem to be wealth. It appears, however, that +where a person is ignorant of riding, and has horses which are useless +to him, if some one teaches him that art, he makes him also richer, for +what was before useless has now become useful to him, and in giving him +knowledge he has also conferred riches upon him. + +ERYXIAS: That is the case. + +SOCRATES: Yet I dare be sworn that Critias will not be moved a whit by +the argument. + +CRITIAS: No, by heaven, I should be a madman if I were. But why do you +not finish the argument which proves that gold and silver and other +things which seem to be wealth are not real wealth? For I have been +exceedingly delighted to hear the discourses which you have just been +holding. + +SOCRATES: My argument, Critias (I said), appears to have given you the +same kind of pleasure which you might have derived from some rhapsode's +recitation of Homer; for you do not believe a word of what has been +said. But come now, give me an answer to this question. Are not certain +things useful to the builder when he is building a house? + +CRITIAS: They are. + +SOCRATES: And would you say that those things are useful which are +employed in house building,--stones and bricks and beams and the like, +and also the instruments with which the builder built the house, the +beams and stones which they provided, and again the instruments by which +these were obtained? + +CRITIAS: It seems to me that they are all useful for building. + +SOCRATES: And is it not true of every art, that not only the materials +but the instruments by which we procure them and without which the work +could not go on, are useful for that art? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And further, the instruments by which the instruments are +procured, and so on, going back from stage to stage ad infinitum,--are +not all these, in your opinion, necessary in order to carry out the +work? + +CRITIAS: We may fairly suppose such to be the case. + +SOCRATES: And if a man has food and drink and clothes and the other +things which are useful to the body, would he need gold or silver or any +other means by which he could procure that which he now has? + +CRITIAS: I do not think so. + +SOCRATES: Then you consider that a man never wants any of these things +for the use of the body? + +CRITIAS: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And if they appear useless to this end, ought they not always +to appear useless? For we have already laid down the principle that +things cannot be at one time useful and at another time not, in the same +process. + +CRITIAS: But in that respect your argument and mine are the same. For +you maintain if they are useful to a certain end, they can never become +useless; whereas I say that in order to accomplish some results bad +things are needed, and good for others. + +SOCRATES: But can a bad thing be used to carry out a good purpose? + +CRITIAS: I should say not. + +SOCRATES: And we call those actions good which a man does for the sake +of virtue? + +CRITIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: But can a man learn any kind of knowledge which is imparted by +word of mouth if he is wholly deprived of the sense of hearing? + +CRITIAS: Certainly not, I think. + +SOCRATES: And will not hearing be useful for virtue, if virtue is taught +by hearing and we use the sense of hearing in giving instruction? + +CRITIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And since medicine frees the sick man from his disease, that +art too may sometimes appear useful in the acquisition of virtue, e.g. +when hearing is procured by the aid of medicine. + +CRITIAS: Very likely. + +SOCRATES: But if, again, we obtain by wealth the aid of medicine, shall +we not regard wealth as useful for virtue? + +CRITIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And also the instruments by which wealth is procured? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: Then you think that a man may gain wealth by bad and +disgraceful means, and, having obtained the aid of medicine which +enables him to acquire the power of hearing, may use that very faculty +for the acquisition of virtue? + +CRITIAS: Yes, I do. + +SOCRATES: But can that which is evil be useful for virtue? + +CRITIAS: No. + +SOCRATES: It is not therefore necessary that the means by which we +obtain what is useful for a certain object should always be useful for +the same object: for it seems that bad actions may sometimes serve good +purposes? The matter will be still plainer if we look at it in this +way:--If things are useful towards the several ends for which they +exist, which ends would not come into existence without them, how would +you regard them? Can ignorance, for instance, be useful for knowledge, +or disease for health, or vice for virtue? + +CRITIAS: Never. + +SOCRATES: And yet we have already agreed--have we not?--that there +can be no knowledge where there has not previously been ignorance, nor +health where there has not been disease, nor virtue where there has not +been vice? + +CRITIAS: I think that we have. + +SOCRATES: But then it would seem that the antecedents without which a +thing cannot exist are not necessarily useful to it. Otherwise ignorance +would appear useful for knowledge, disease for health, and vice for +virtue. + +Critias still showed great reluctance to accept any argument which +went to prove that all these things were useless. I saw that it was as +difficult to persuade him as (according to the proverb) it is to boil +a stone, so I said: Let us bid 'good-bye' to the discussion, since we +cannot agree whether these things are useful and a part of wealth or +not. But what shall we say to another question: Which is the happier and +better man,--he who requires the greatest quantity of necessaries for +body and diet, or he who requires only the fewest and least? The answer +will perhaps become more obvious if we suppose some one, comparing the +man himself at different times, to consider whether his condition is +better when he is sick or when he is well? + +CRITIAS: That is not a question which needs much consideration. + +SOCRATES: Probably, I said, every one can understand that health is a +better condition than disease. But when have we the greatest and the +most various needs, when we are sick or when we are well? + +CRITIAS: When we are sick. + +SOCRATES: And when we are in the worst state we have the greatest and +most especial need and desire of bodily pleasures? + +CRITIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And seeing that a man is best off when he is least in need of +such things, does not the same reasoning apply to the case of any two +persons, of whom one has many and great wants and desires, and the other +few and moderate? For instance, some men are gamblers, some drunkards, +and some gluttons: and gambling and the love of drink and greediness are +all desires? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: But desires are only the lack of something: and those who have +the greatest desires are in a worse condition than those who have none +or very slight ones? + +CRITIAS: Certainly I consider that those who have such wants are bad, +and that the greater their wants the worse they are. + +SOCRATES: And do we think it possible that a thing should be useful for +a purpose unless we have need of it for that purpose? + +CRITIAS: No. + +SOCRATES: Then if these things are useful for supplying the needs of the +body, we must want them for that purpose? + +CRITIAS: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: And he to whom the greatest number of things are useful +for his purpose, will also want the greatest number of means of +accomplishing it, supposing that we necessarily feel the want of all +useful things? + +CRITIAS: It seems so. + +SOCRATES: The argument proves then that he who has great riches has +likewise need of many things for the supply of the wants of the body; +for wealth appears useful towards that end. And the richest must be in +the worst condition, since they seem to be most in want of such things. + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Eryxias, by An Imitator of Plato + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ERYXIAS *** + +***** This file should be named 1681.txt or 1681.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + http://www.gutenberg.org/1/6/8/1681/ + +Produced by Sue Asscher + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. Special rules, +set forth in the General Terms of Use part of this license, apply to +copying and distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works to +protect the PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm concept and trademark. Project +Gutenberg is a registered trademark, and may not be used if you +charge for the eBooks, unless you receive specific permission. If you +do not charge anything for copies of this eBook, complying with the +rules is very easy. You may use this eBook for nearly any purpose +such as creation of derivative works, reports, performances and +research. They may be modified and printed and given away--you may do +practically ANYTHING with public domain eBooks. Redistribution is +subject to the trademark license, especially commercial +redistribution. + + + +*** START: FULL LICENSE *** + +THE FULL PROJECT GUTENBERG LICENSE +PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU DISTRIBUTE OR USE THIS WORK + +To protect the Project Gutenberg-tm mission of promoting the free +distribution of electronic works, by using or distributing this work +(or any other work associated in any way with the phrase "Project +Gutenberg"), you agree to comply with all the terms of the Full Project +Gutenberg-tm License (available with this file or online at +http://gutenberg.org/license). + + +Section 1. General Terms of Use and Redistributing Project Gutenberg-tm +electronic works + +1.A. By reading or using any part of this Project Gutenberg-tm +electronic work, you indicate that you have read, understand, agree to +and accept all the terms of this license and intellectual property +(trademark/copyright) agreement. If you do not agree to abide by all +the terms of this agreement, you must cease using and return or destroy +all copies of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works in your possession. +If you paid a fee for obtaining a copy of or access to a Project +Gutenberg-tm electronic work and you do not agree to be bound by the +terms of this agreement, you may obtain a refund from the person or +entity to whom you paid the fee as set forth in paragraph 1.E.8. + +1.B. "Project Gutenberg" is a registered trademark. It may only be +used on or associated in any way with an electronic work by people who +agree to be bound by the terms of this agreement. There are a few +things that you can do with most Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works +even without complying with the full terms of this agreement. See +paragraph 1.C below. There are a lot of things you can do with Project +Gutenberg-tm electronic works if you follow the terms of this agreement +and help preserve free future access to Project Gutenberg-tm electronic +works. See paragraph 1.E below. + +1.C. The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation ("the Foundation" +or PGLAF), owns a compilation copyright in the collection of Project +Gutenberg-tm electronic works. Nearly all the individual works in the +collection are in the public domain in the United States. If an +individual work is in the public domain in the United States and you are +located in the United States, we do not claim a right to prevent you from +copying, distributing, performing, displaying or creating derivative +works based on the work as long as all references to Project Gutenberg +are removed. Of course, we hope that you will support the Project +Gutenberg-tm mission of promoting free access to electronic works by +freely sharing Project Gutenberg-tm works in compliance with the terms of +this agreement for keeping the Project Gutenberg-tm name associated with +the work. You can easily comply with the terms of this agreement by +keeping this work in the same format with its attached full Project +Gutenberg-tm License when you share it without charge with others. + +1.D. The copyright laws of the place where you are located also govern +what you can do with this work. Copyright laws in most countries are in +a constant state of change. If you are outside the United States, check +the laws of your country in addition to the terms of this agreement +before downloading, copying, displaying, performing, distributing or +creating derivative works based on this work or any other Project +Gutenberg-tm work. The Foundation makes no representations concerning +the copyright status of any work in any country outside the United +States. + +1.E. Unless you have removed all references to Project Gutenberg: + +1.E.1. The following sentence, with active links to, or other immediate +access to, the full Project Gutenberg-tm License must appear prominently +whenever any copy of a Project Gutenberg-tm work (any work on which the +phrase "Project Gutenberg" appears, or with which the phrase "Project +Gutenberg" is associated) is accessed, displayed, performed, viewed, +copied or distributed: + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + +1.E.2. If an individual Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work is derived +from the public domain (does not contain a notice indicating that it is +posted with permission of the copyright holder), the work can be copied +and distributed to anyone in the United States without paying any fees +or charges. If you are redistributing or providing access to a work +with the phrase "Project Gutenberg" associated with or appearing on the +work, you must comply either with the requirements of paragraphs 1.E.1 +through 1.E.7 or obtain permission for the use of the work and the +Project Gutenberg-tm trademark as set forth in paragraphs 1.E.8 or +1.E.9. + +1.E.3. If an individual Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work is posted +with the permission of the copyright holder, your use and distribution +must comply with both paragraphs 1.E.1 through 1.E.7 and any additional +terms imposed by the copyright holder. Additional terms will be linked +to the Project Gutenberg-tm License for all works posted with the +permission of the copyright holder found at the beginning of this work. + +1.E.4. Do not unlink or detach or remove the full Project Gutenberg-tm +License terms from this work, or any files containing a part of this +work or any other work associated with Project Gutenberg-tm. + +1.E.5. Do not copy, display, perform, distribute or redistribute this +electronic work, or any part of this electronic work, without +prominently displaying the sentence set forth in paragraph 1.E.1 with +active links or immediate access to the full terms of the Project +Gutenberg-tm License. + +1.E.6. You may convert to and distribute this work in any binary, +compressed, marked up, nonproprietary or proprietary form, including any +word processing or hypertext form. However, if you provide access to or +distribute copies of a Project Gutenberg-tm work in a format other than +"Plain Vanilla ASCII" or other format used in the official version +posted on the official Project Gutenberg-tm web site (www.gutenberg.org), +you must, at no additional cost, fee or expense to the user, provide a +copy, a means of exporting a copy, or a means of obtaining a copy upon +request, of the work in its original "Plain Vanilla ASCII" or other +form. Any alternate format must include the full Project Gutenberg-tm +License as specified in paragraph 1.E.1. + +1.E.7. Do not charge a fee for access to, viewing, displaying, +performing, copying or distributing any Project Gutenberg-tm works +unless you comply with paragraph 1.E.8 or 1.E.9. + +1.E.8. You may charge a reasonable fee for copies of or providing +access to or distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works provided +that + +- You pay a royalty fee of 20% of the gross profits you derive from + the use of Project Gutenberg-tm works calculated using the method + you already use to calculate your applicable taxes. The fee is + owed to the owner of the Project Gutenberg-tm trademark, but he + has agreed to donate royalties under this paragraph to the + Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation. Royalty payments + must be paid within 60 days following each date on which you + prepare (or are legally required to prepare) your periodic tax + returns. Royalty payments should be clearly marked as such and + sent to the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation at the + address specified in Section 4, "Information about donations to + the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation." + +- You provide a full refund of any money paid by a user who notifies + you in writing (or by e-mail) within 30 days of receipt that s/he + does not agree to the terms of the full Project Gutenberg-tm + License. You must require such a user to return or + destroy all copies of the works possessed in a physical medium + and discontinue all use of and all access to other copies of + Project Gutenberg-tm works. + +- You provide, in accordance with paragraph 1.F.3, a full refund of any + money paid for a work or a replacement copy, if a defect in the + electronic work is discovered and reported to you within 90 days + of receipt of the work. + +- You comply with all other terms of this agreement for free + distribution of Project Gutenberg-tm works. + +1.E.9. If you wish to charge a fee or distribute a Project Gutenberg-tm +electronic work or group of works on different terms than are set +forth in this agreement, you must obtain permission in writing from +both the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation and Michael +Hart, the owner of the Project Gutenberg-tm trademark. Contact the +Foundation as set forth in Section 3 below. + +1.F. + +1.F.1. Project Gutenberg volunteers and employees expend considerable +effort to identify, do copyright research on, transcribe and proofread +public domain works in creating the Project Gutenberg-tm +collection. Despite these efforts, Project Gutenberg-tm electronic +works, and the medium on which they may be stored, may contain +"Defects," such as, but not limited to, incomplete, inaccurate or +corrupt data, transcription errors, a copyright or other intellectual +property infringement, a defective or damaged disk or other medium, a +computer virus, or computer codes that damage or cannot be read by +your equipment. + +1.F.2. LIMITED WARRANTY, DISCLAIMER OF DAMAGES - Except for the "Right +of Replacement or Refund" described in paragraph 1.F.3, the Project +Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation, the owner of the Project +Gutenberg-tm trademark, and any other party distributing a Project +Gutenberg-tm electronic work under this agreement, disclaim all +liability to you for damages, costs and expenses, including legal +fees. YOU AGREE THAT YOU HAVE NO REMEDIES FOR NEGLIGENCE, STRICT +LIABILITY, BREACH OF WARRANTY OR BREACH OF CONTRACT EXCEPT THOSE +PROVIDED IN PARAGRAPH F3. YOU AGREE THAT THE FOUNDATION, THE +TRADEMARK OWNER, AND ANY DISTRIBUTOR UNDER THIS AGREEMENT WILL NOT BE +LIABLE TO YOU FOR ACTUAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE OR +INCIDENTAL DAMAGES EVEN IF YOU GIVE NOTICE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH +DAMAGE. + +1.F.3. LIMITED RIGHT OF REPLACEMENT OR REFUND - If you discover a +defect in this electronic work within 90 days of receiving it, you can +receive a refund of the money (if any) you paid for it by sending a +written explanation to the person you received the work from. If you +received the work on a physical medium, you must return the medium with +your written explanation. The person or entity that provided you with +the defective work may elect to provide a replacement copy in lieu of a +refund. If you received the work electronically, the person or entity +providing it to you may choose to give you a second opportunity to +receive the work electronically in lieu of a refund. If the second copy +is also defective, you may demand a refund in writing without further +opportunities to fix the problem. + +1.F.4. Except for the limited right of replacement or refund set forth +in paragraph 1.F.3, this work is provided to you 'AS-IS' WITH NO OTHER +WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO +WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTIBILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PURPOSE. + +1.F.5. Some states do not allow disclaimers of certain implied +warranties or the exclusion or limitation of certain types of damages. +If any disclaimer or limitation set forth in this agreement violates the +law of the state applicable to this agreement, the agreement shall be +interpreted to make the maximum disclaimer or limitation permitted by +the applicable state law. The invalidity or unenforceability of any +provision of this agreement shall not void the remaining provisions. + +1.F.6. INDEMNITY - You agree to indemnify and hold the Foundation, the +trademark owner, any agent or employee of the Foundation, anyone +providing copies of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works in accordance +with this agreement, and any volunteers associated with the production, +promotion and distribution of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works, +harmless from all liability, costs and expenses, including legal fees, +that arise directly or indirectly from any of the following which you do +or cause to occur: (a) distribution of this or any Project Gutenberg-tm +work, (b) alteration, modification, or additions or deletions to any +Project Gutenberg-tm work, and (c) any Defect you cause. + + +Section 2. Information about the Mission of Project Gutenberg-tm + +Project Gutenberg-tm is synonymous with the free distribution of +electronic works in formats readable by the widest variety of computers +including obsolete, old, middle-aged and new computers. It exists +because of the efforts of hundreds of volunteers and donations from +people in all walks of life. + +Volunteers and financial support to provide volunteers with the +assistance they need, is critical to reaching Project Gutenberg-tm's +goals and ensuring that the Project Gutenberg-tm collection will +remain freely available for generations to come. In 2001, the Project +Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation was created to provide a secure +and permanent future for Project Gutenberg-tm and future generations. +To learn more about the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation +and how your efforts and donations can help, see Sections 3 and 4 +and the Foundation web page at http://www.pglaf.org. + + +Section 3. Information about the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive +Foundation + +The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation is a non profit +501(c)(3) educational corporation organized under the laws of the +state of Mississippi and granted tax exempt status by the Internal +Revenue Service. The Foundation's EIN or federal tax identification +number is 64-6221541. Its 501(c)(3) letter is posted at +http://pglaf.org/fundraising. Contributions to the Project Gutenberg +Literary Archive Foundation are tax deductible to the full extent +permitted by U.S. federal laws and your state's laws. + +The Foundation's principal office is located at 4557 Melan Dr. S. +Fairbanks, AK, 99712., but its volunteers and employees are scattered +throughout numerous locations. Its business office is located at +809 North 1500 West, Salt Lake City, UT 84116, (801) 596-1887, email +business@pglaf.org. Email contact links and up to date contact +information can be found at the Foundation's web site and official +page at http://pglaf.org + +For additional contact information: + Dr. Gregory B. Newby + Chief Executive and Director + gbnewby@pglaf.org + + +Section 4. Information about Donations to the Project Gutenberg +Literary Archive Foundation + +Project Gutenberg-tm depends upon and cannot survive without wide +spread public support and donations to carry out its mission of +increasing the number of public domain and licensed works that can be +freely distributed in machine readable form accessible by the widest +array of equipment including outdated equipment. Many small donations +($1 to $5,000) are particularly important to maintaining tax exempt +status with the IRS. + +The Foundation is committed to complying with the laws regulating +charities and charitable donations in all 50 states of the United +States. Compliance requirements are not uniform and it takes a +considerable effort, much paperwork and many fees to meet and keep up +with these requirements. We do not solicit donations in locations +where we have not received written confirmation of compliance. To +SEND DONATIONS or determine the status of compliance for any +particular state visit http://pglaf.org + +While we cannot and do not solicit contributions from states where we +have not met the solicitation requirements, we know of no prohibition +against accepting unsolicited donations from donors in such states who +approach us with offers to donate. + +International donations are gratefully accepted, but we cannot make +any statements concerning tax treatment of donations received from +outside the United States. U.S. laws alone swamp our small staff. + +Please check the Project Gutenberg Web pages for current donation +methods and addresses. Donations are accepted in a number of other +ways including checks, online payments and credit card donations. +To donate, please visit: http://pglaf.org/donate + + +Section 5. General Information About Project Gutenberg-tm electronic +works. + +Professor Michael S. Hart is the originator of the Project Gutenberg-tm +concept of a library of electronic works that could be freely shared +with anyone. For thirty years, he produced and distributed Project +Gutenberg-tm eBooks with only a loose network of volunteer support. + + +Project Gutenberg-tm eBooks are often created from several printed +editions, all of which are confirmed as Public Domain in the U.S. +unless a copyright notice is included. Thus, we do not necessarily +keep eBooks in compliance with any particular paper edition. + + +Most people start at our Web site which has the main PG search facility: + + http://www.gutenberg.org + +This Web site includes information about Project Gutenberg-tm, +including how to make donations to the Project Gutenberg Literary +Archive Foundation, how to help produce our new eBooks, and how to +subscribe to our email newsletter to hear about new eBooks. |