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diff --git a/.gitattributes b/.gitattributes new file mode 100644 index 0000000..6833f05 --- /dev/null +++ b/.gitattributes @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +* text=auto +*.txt text +*.md text diff --git a/1681-h.zip b/1681-h.zip Binary files differnew file mode 100644 index 0000000..8fd3806 --- /dev/null +++ b/1681-h.zip diff --git a/1681-h/1681-h.htm b/1681-h/1681-h.htm new file mode 100644 index 0000000..2aeecd8 --- /dev/null +++ b/1681-h/1681-h.htm @@ -0,0 +1,1502 @@ +<?xml version="1.0" encoding="us-ascii"?> + +<!DOCTYPE html + PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" + "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd" > + +<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en"> + <head> + <title> + Eryxias, by A Platonic Imitator + </title> + <style type="text/css" xml:space="preserve"> + + body { margin:5%; background:#faebd0; text-align:justify} + P { text-indent: 1em; margin-top: .25em; margin-bottom: .25em; } + H1,H2,H3,H4,H5,H6 { text-align: center; margin-left: 15%; margin-right: 15%; } + hr { width: 50%; text-align: center;} + .foot { margin-left: 20%; margin-right: 20%; text-align: justify; text-indent: -3em; font-size: 90%; } + blockquote {font-size: 97%; font-style: italic; margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%;} + .mynote {background-color: #DDE; color: #000; padding: .5em; margin-left: 10%; margin-right: 10%; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 95%;} + .toc { margin-left: 10%; margin-bottom: .75em;} + .toc2 { margin-left: 20%;} + div.fig { display:block; margin:0 auto; text-align:center; } + div.middle { margin-left: 20%; margin-right: 20%; text-align: justify; } + .figleft {float: left; margin-left: 0%; margin-right: 1%;} + .figright {float: right; margin-right: 0%; margin-left: 1%;} + .pagenum {display:inline; font-size: 70%; font-style:normal; + margin: 0; padding: 0; position: absolute; right: 1%; + text-align: right;} + pre { font-style: italic; font-size: 90%; margin-left: 10%;} + +</style> + </head> + <body> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + +The Project Gutenberg EBook of Eryxias, by An Imitator of Plato + +This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with +almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: Eryxias + +Author: An Imitator of Plato + +Translator: Benjamin Jowett + +Release Date: November 6, 2008 [EBook #1681] +Last Updated: January 15, 2013 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ERYXIAS *** + + + + +Produced by Sue Asscher, and David Widger + + + + + +</pre> + <p> + <br /><br /> + </p> + <h1> + ERYXIAS + </h1> + <p> + <br /> + </p> + <h2> + By a Platonic Imitator + </h2> + <p> + <br /><br /> + </p> + <h3> + Translated by Benjamin Jowett + </h3> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <h3> + Contents + </h3> + <table summary="" style="margin-right: auto; margin-left: auto"> + <tr> + <td> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link2H_APPE"> APPENDIX II. </a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link2H_INTR"> INTRODUCTION. </a> + </p> + <p class="toc"> + <a href="#link2H_4_0003"> ERYXIAS </a> + </p> + </td> + </tr> + </table> + <p> + <br /> <br /> + </p> + <hr /> + <p> + <br /> <br /> <a name="link2H_APPE" id="link2H_APPE"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <h2> + APPENDIX II. + </h2> + <p> + The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not + mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim to be + ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be assigned + probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when his writings + were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit considerable + originality, and are remarkable for containing several thoughts of the + sort which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient, and which + therefore have a peculiar interest for us. The Second Alcibiades shows + that the difficulties about prayer which have perplexed Christian + theologians were not unknown among the followers of Plato. The Eryxias was + doubted by the ancients themselves: yet it may claim the distinction of + being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one which anticipates in the + most striking manner the modern science of political economy and gives an + abstract form to some of its principal doctrines. + </p> + <p> + For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend and + secretary, Mr. Knight. + </p> + <p> + That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a + genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, and + was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is poor and + weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and there is a + certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which is very + un-Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the poets:—the + remark that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is uncommonly + difficult to understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of Homer, are + entirely in the spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The + characters are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and + preaches too much, while Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There are + traces of Stoic influence in the general tone and phraseology of the + Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and + the writer seems to have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato (compare + Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather clumsily introduced, and + two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference to + the death of Archelaus as having occurred 'quite lately' is only a + fiction, probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the story of Archelaus + is told, and a similar phrase occurs;—ta gar echthes kai proen + gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages which are either corrupt + or extremely ill-expressed. But there is a modern interest in the subject + of the dialogue; and it is a good example of a short spurious work, which + may be attributed to the second or third century before Christ. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link2H_INTR" id="link2H_INTR"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </div> + <h2> + INTRODUCTION. + </h2> + <p> + Much cannot be said in praise of the style or conception of the Eryxias. + It is frequently obscure; like the exercise of a student, it is full of + small imitations of Plato:—Phaeax returning from an expedition to + Sicily (compare Socrates in the Charmides from the army at Potidaea), the + figure of the game at draughts, borrowed from the Republic, etc. It has + also in many passages the ring of sophistry. On the other hand, the rather + unhandsome treatment which is exhibited towards Prodicus is quite unlike + the urbanity of Plato. + </p> + <p> + Yet there are some points in the argument which are deserving of + attention. (1) That wealth depends upon the need of it or demand for it, + is the first anticipation in an abstract form of one of the great + principles of modern political economy, and the nearest approach to it to + be found in an ancient writer. (2) The resolution of wealth into its + simplest implements going on to infinity is a subtle and refined thought. + (3) That wealth is relative to circumstances is a sound conception. (4) + That the arts and sciences which receive payment are likewise to be + comprehended under the notion of wealth, also touches a question of modern + political economy. (5) The distinction of post hoc and propter hoc, often + lost sight of in modern as well as in ancient times. These metaphysical + conceptions and distinctions show considerable power of thought in the + writer, whatever we may think of his merits as an imitator of Plato. + </p> + <p> + <a name="link2H_4_0003" id="link2H_4_0003"> + <!-- H2 anchor --> </a> + </p> + <div style="height: 4em;"> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </div> + <h2> + ERYXIAS + </h2> + <p> + PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Eryxias, Erasistratus, Critias. + </p> + <p> + SCENE: The portico of a temple of Zeus. + </p> + <p> + It happened by chance that Eryxias the Steirian was walking with me in the + Portico of Zeus the Deliverer, when there came up to us Critias and + Erasistratus, the latter the son of Phaeax, who was the nephew of + Erasistratus. Now Erasistratus had just arrived from Sicily and that part + of the world. As they approached, he said, Hail, Socrates! + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The same to you, I said; have you any good news from Sicily to + tell us? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: Most excellent. But, if you please, let us first sit down; + for I am tired with my yesterday's journey from Megara. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Gladly, if that is your desire. + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: What would you wish to hear first? he said. What the + Sicilians are doing, or how they are disposed towards our city? To my + mind, they are very like wasps: so long as you only cause them a little + annoyance they are quite unmanageable; you must destroy their nests if you + wish to get the better of them. And in a similar way, the Syracusans, + unless we set to work in earnest, and go against them with a great + expedition, will never submit to our rule. The petty injuries which we at + present inflict merely irritate them enough to make them utterly + intractable. And now they have sent ambassadors to Athens, and intend, I + suspect, to play us some trick.—While we were talking, the Syracusan + envoys chanced to go by, and Erasistratus, pointing to one of them, said + to me, That, Socrates, is the richest man in all Italy and Sicily. For who + has larger estates or more land at his disposal to cultivate if he please? + And they are of a quality, too, finer than any other land in Hellas. + Moreover, he has all the things which go to make up wealth, slaves and + horses innumerable, gold and silver without end. + </p> + <p> + I saw that he was inclined to expatiate on the riches of the man; so I + asked him, Well, Erasistratus, and what sort of character does he bear in + Sicily? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: He is esteemed to be, and really is, the wickedest of all + the Sicilians and Italians, and even more wicked than he is rich; indeed, + if you were to ask any Sicilian whom he thought to be the worst and the + richest of mankind, you would never hear any one else named. + </p> + <p> + I reflected that we were speaking, not of trivial matters, but about + wealth and virtue, which are deemed to be of the greatest moment, and I + asked Erasistratus whom he considered the wealthier,—he who was the + possessor of a talent of silver or he who had a field worth two talents? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: The owner of the field. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And on the same principle he who had robes and bedding and such + things which are of greater value to him than to a stranger would be + richer than the stranger? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if any one gave you a choice, which of these would you + prefer? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: That which was most valuable. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: In which way do you think you would be the richer? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: By choosing as I said. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And he appears to you to be the richest who has goods of the + greatest value? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: He does. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And are not the healthy richer than the sick, since health is a + possession more valuable than riches to the sick? Surely there is no one + who would not prefer to be poor and well, rather than to have all the King + of Persia's wealth and to be ill. And this proves that men set health + above wealth, else they would never choose the one in preference to the + other. + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if anything appeared to be more valuable than health, he + would be the richest who possessed it? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: He would. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Suppose that some one came to us at this moment and were to ask, + Well, Socrates and Eryxias and Erasistratus, can you tell me what is of + the greatest value to men? Is it not that of which the possession will + best enable a man to advise how his own and his friend's affairs should be + administered?—What will be our reply? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: I should say, Socrates, that happiness was the most precious + of human possessions. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Not a bad answer. But do we not deem those men who are most + prosperous to be the happiest? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: That is my opinion. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And are they not most prosperous who commit the fewest errors in + respect either of themselves or of other men? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And they who know what is evil and what is good; what should be + done and what should be left undone;—these behave the most wisely + and make the fewest mistakes? + </p> + <p> + Erasistratus agreed to this. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then the wisest and those who do best and the most fortunate and + the richest would appear to be all one and the same, if wisdom is really + the most valuable of our possessions? + </p> + <p> + Yes, said Eryxias, interposing, but what use would it be if a man had the + wisdom of Nestor and wanted the necessaries of life, food and drink and + clothes and the like? Where would be the advantage of wisdom then? Or how + could he be the richest of men who might even have to go begging, because + he had not wherewithal to live? + </p> + <p> + I thought that what Eryxias was saying had some weight, and I replied, + Would the wise man really suffer in this way, if he were so ill-provided; + whereas if he had the house of Polytion, and the house were full of gold + and silver, he would lack nothing? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Yes; for then he might dispose of his property and obtain in + exchange what he needed, or he might sell it for money with which he could + supply his wants and in a moment procure abundance of everything. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: True, if he could find some one who preferred such a house to + the wisdom of Nestor. But if there are persons who set great store by + wisdom like Nestor's and the advantages accruing from it, to sell these, + if he were so disposed, would be easier still. Or is a house a most useful + and necessary possession, and does it make a great difference in the + comfort of life to have a mansion like Polytion's instead of living in a + shabby little cottage, whereas wisdom is of small use and it is of no + importance whether a man is wise or ignorant about the highest matters? Or + is wisdom despised of men and can find no buyers, although cypress wood + and marble of Pentelicus are eagerly bought by numerous purchasers? Surely + the prudent pilot or the skilful physician, or the artist of any kind who + is proficient in his art, is more worth than the things which are + especially reckoned among riches; and he who can advise well and prudently + for himself and others is able also to sell the product of his art, if he + so desire. + </p> + <p> + Eryxias looked askance, as if he had received some unfair treatment, and + said, I believe, Socrates, that if you were forced to speak the truth, you + would declare that you were richer than Callias the son of Hipponicus. And + yet, although you claimed to be wiser about things of real importance, you + would not any the more be richer than he. + </p> + <p> + I dare say, Eryxias, I said, that you may regard these arguments of ours + as a kind of game; you think that they have no relation to facts, but are + like the pieces in the game of draughts which the player can move in such + a way that his opponents are unable to make any countermove. (Compare + Republic.) And perhaps, too, as regards riches you are of opinion that + while facts remain the same, there are arguments, no matter whether true + or false, which enable the user of them to prove that the wisest and the + richest are one and the same, although he is in the wrong and his + opponents are in the right. There would be nothing strange in this; it + would be as if two persons were to dispute about letters, one declaring + that the word Socrates began with an S, the other that it began with an A, + and the latter could gain the victory over the former. + </p> + <p> + Eryxias glanced at the audience, laughing and blushing at once, as if he + had had nothing to do with what had just been said, and replied,—No, + indeed, Socrates, I never supposed that our arguments should be of a kind + which would never convince any one of those here present or be of + advantage to them. For what man of sense could ever be persuaded that the + wisest and the richest are the same? The truth is that we are discussing + the subject of riches, and my notion is that we should argue respecting + the honest and dishonest means of acquiring them, and, generally, whether + they are a good thing or a bad. + </p> + <p> + Very good, I said, and I am obliged to you for the hint: in future we will + be more careful. But why do not you yourself, as you introduced the + argument, and do not think that the former discussion touched the point at + issue, tell us whether you consider riches to be a good or an evil? + </p> + <p> + I am of opinion, he said, that they are a good. He was about to add + something more, when Critias interrupted him:—Do you really suppose + so, Eryxias? + </p> + <p> + Certainly, replied Eryxias; I should be mad if I did not: and I do not + fancy that you would find any one else of a contrary opinion. + </p> + <p> + And I, retorted Critias, should say that there is no one whom I could not + compel to admit that riches are bad for some men. But surely, if they were + a good, they could not appear bad for any one? + </p> + <p> + Here I interposed and said to them: If you two were having an argument + about equitation and what was the best way of riding, supposing that I + knew the art myself, I should try to bring you to an agreement. For I + should be ashamed if I were present and did not do what I could to prevent + your difference. And I should do the same if you were quarrelling about + any other art and were likely, unless you agreed on the point in dispute, + to part as enemies instead of as friends. But now, when we are contending + about a thing of which the usefulness continues during the whole of life, + and it makes an enormous difference whether we are to regard it as + beneficial or not,—a thing, too, which is esteemed of the highest + importance by the Hellenes:—(for parents, as soon as their children + are, as they think, come to years of discretion, urge them to consider how + wealth may be acquired, since by riches the value of a man is judged):—When, + I say, we are thus in earnest, and you, who agree in other respects, fall + to disputing about a matter of such moment, that is, about wealth, and not + merely whether it is black or white, light or heavy, but whether it is a + good or an evil, whereby, although you are now the dearest of friends and + kinsmen, the most bitter hatred may arise betwixt you, I must hinder your + dissension to the best of my power. If I could, I would tell you the + truth, and so put an end to the dispute; but as I cannot do this, and each + of you supposes that you can bring the other to an agreement, I am + prepared, as far as my capacity admits, to help you in solving the + question. Please, therefore, Critias, try to make us accept the doctrines + which you yourself entertain. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: I should like to follow up the argument, and will ask Eryxias + whether he thinks that there are just and unjust men? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Most decidedly. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: And does injustice seem to you an evil or a good? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: An evil. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Do you consider that he who bribes his neighbour's wife and + commits adultery with her, acts justly or unjustly, and this although both + the state and the laws forbid? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Unjustly. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: And if the wicked man has wealth and is willing to spend it, he + will carry out his evil purposes? whereas he who is short of means cannot + do what he fain would, and therefore does not sin? In such a case, surely, + it is better that a person should not be wealthy, if his poverty prevents + the accomplishment of his desires, and his desires are evil? Or, again, + should you call sickness a good or an evil? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: An evil. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Well, and do you think that some men are intemperate? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Then, if it is better for his health that the intemperate man + should refrain from meat and drink and other pleasant things, but he + cannot owing to his intemperance, will it not also be better that he + should be too poor to gratify his lust rather than that he should have a + superabundance of means? For thus he will not be able to sin, although he + desire never so much. + </p> + <p> + Critias appeared to be arguing so admirably that Eryxias, if he had not + been ashamed of the bystanders, would probably have got up and struck him. + For he thought that he had been robbed of a great possession when it + became obvious to him that he had been wrong in his former opinion about + wealth. I observed his vexation, and feared that they would proceed to + abuse and quarrelling: so I said,—I heard that very argument used in + the Lyceum yesterday by a wise man, Prodicus of Ceos; but the audience + thought that he was talking mere nonsense, and no one could be persuaded + that he was speaking the truth. And when at last a certain talkative young + gentleman came in, and, taking his seat, began to laugh and jeer at + Prodicus, tormenting him and demanding an explanation of his argument, he + gained the ear of the audience far more than Prodicus. + </p> + <p> + Can you repeat the discourse to us? Said Erasistratus. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: If I can only remember it, I will. The youth began by asking + Prodicus, In what way did he think that riches were a good and in what an + evil? Prodicus answered, as you did just now, that they were a good to + good men and to those who knew in what way they should be employed, while + to the bad and the ignorant they were an evil. The same is true, he went + on to say, of all other things; men make them to be what they are + themselves. The saying of Archilochus is true:— + </p> + <p> + 'Men's thoughts correspond to the things which they meet with.' + </p> + <p> + Well, then, replied the youth, if any one makes me wise in that wisdom + whereby good men become wise, he must also make everything else good to + me. Not that he concerns himself at all with these other things, but he + has converted my ignorance into wisdom. If, for example, a person teach me + grammar or music, he will at the same time teach me all that relates to + grammar or music, and so when he makes me good, he makes things good to + me. + </p> + <p> + Prodicus did not altogether agree: still he consented to what was said. + </p> + <p> + And do you think, said the youth, that doing good things is like building + a house,—the work of human agency; or do things remain what they + were at first, good or bad, for all time? + </p> + <p> + Prodicus began to suspect, I fancy, the direction which the argument was + likely to take, and did not wish to be put down by a mere stripling before + all those present:—(if they two had been alone, he would not have + minded):—so he answered, cleverly enough: I think that doing good + things is a work of human agency. + </p> + <p> + And is virtue in your opinion, Prodicus, innate or acquired by + instruction? + </p> + <p> + The latter, said Prodicus. + </p> + <p> + Then you would consider him a simpleton who supposed that he could obtain + by praying to the Gods the knowledge of grammar or music or any other art, + which he must either learn from another or find out for himself? + </p> + <p> + Prodicus agreed to this also. + </p> + <p> + And when you pray to the Gods that you may do well and receive good, you + mean by your prayer nothing else than that you desire to become good and + wise:—if, at least, things are good to the good and wise and evil to + the evil. But in that case, if virtue is acquired by instruction, it would + appear that you only pray to be taught what you do not know. + </p> + <p> + Hereupon I said to Prodicus that it was no misfortune to him if he had + been proved to be in error in supposing that the Gods immediately granted + to us whatever we asked:—if, I added, whenever you go up to the + Acropolis you earnestly entreat the Gods to grant you good things, + although you know not whether they can yield your request, it is as though + you went to the doors of the grammarian and begged him, although you had + never made a study of the art, to give you a knowledge of grammar which + would enable you forthwith to do the business of a grammarian. + </p> + <p> + While I was speaking, Prodicus was preparing to retaliate upon his + youthful assailant, intending to employ the argument of which you have + just made use; for he was annoyed to have it supposed that he offered a + vain prayer to the Gods. But the master of the gymnasium came to him and + begged him to leave because he was teaching the youths doctrines which + were unsuited to them, and therefore bad for them. + </p> + <p> + I have told you this because I want you to understand how men are + circumstanced in regard to philosophy. Had Prodicus been present and said + what you have said, the audience would have thought him raving, and he + would have been ejected from the gymnasium. But you have argued so + excellently well that you have not only persuaded your hearers, but have + brought your opponent to an agreement. For just as in the law courts, if + two witnesses testify to the same fact, one of whom seems to be an honest + fellow and the other a rogue, the testimony of the rogue often has the + contrary effect on the judges' minds to what he intended, while the same + evidence if given by the honest man at once strikes them as perfectly + true. And probably the audience have something of the same feeling about + yourself and Prodicus; they think him a Sophist and a braggart, and regard + you as a gentleman of courtesy and worth. For they do not pay attention to + the argument so much as to the character of the speaker. + </p> + <p> + But truly, Socrates, said Erasistratus, though you may be joking, Critias + does seem to me to be saying something which is of weight. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: I am in profound earnest, I assure you. But why, as you have + begun your argument so prettily, do you not go on with the rest? There is + still something lacking, now you have agreed that (wealth) is a good to + some and an evil to others. It remains to enquire what constitutes wealth; + for unless you know this, you cannot possibly come to an understanding as + to whether it is a good or an evil. I am ready to assist you in the + enquiry to the utmost of my power: but first let him who affirms that + riches are a good, tell us what, in his opinion, is wealth. + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: Indeed, Socrates, I have no notion about wealth beyond that + which men commonly have. I suppose that wealth is a quantity of money + (compare Arist. Pol.); and this, I imagine, would also be Critias' + definition. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then now we have to consider, What is money? Or else later on we + shall be found to differ about the question. For instance, the + Carthaginians use money of this sort. Something which is about the size of + a stater is tied up in a small piece of leather: what it is, no one knows + but the makers. A seal is next set upon the leather, which then passes + into circulation, and he who has the largest number of such pieces is + esteemed the richest and best off. And yet if any one among us had a mass + of such coins he would be no wealthier than if he had so many pebbles from + the mountain. At Lacedaemon, again, they use iron by weight which has been + rendered useless: and he who has the greatest mass of such iron is thought + to be the richest, although elsewhere it has no value. In Ethiopia + engraved stones are employed, of which a Lacedaemonian could make no use. + Once more, among the Nomad Scythians a man who owned the house of Polytion + would not be thought richer than one who possessed Mount Lycabettus among + ourselves. And clearly those things cannot all be regarded as possessions; + for in some cases the possessors would appear none the richer thereby: + but, as I was saying, some one of them is thought in one place to be + money, and the possessors of it are the wealthy, whereas in some other + place it is not money, and the ownership of it does not confer wealth; + just as the standard of morals varies, and what is honourable to some men + is dishonourable to others. And if we wish to enquire why a house is + valuable to us but not to the Scythians, or why the Carthaginians value + leather which is worthless to us, or the Lacedaemonians find wealth in + iron and we do not, can we not get an answer in some such way as this: + Would an Athenian, who had a thousand talents weight of the stones which + lie about in the Agora and which we do not employ for any purpose, be + thought to be any the richer? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: He certainly would not appear so to me. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But if he possessed a thousand talents weight of some precious + stone, we should say that he was very rich? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: Of course. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The reason is that the one is useless and the other useful? + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And in the same way among the Scythians a house has no value + because they have no use for a house, nor would a Scythian set so much + store on the finest house in the world as on a leather coat, because he + could use the one and not the other. Or again, the Carthaginian coinage is + not wealth in our eyes, for we could not employ it, as we can silver, to + procure what we need, and therefore it is of no use to us. + </p> + <p> + ERASISTRATUS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: What is useful to us, then, is wealth, and what is useless to us + is not wealth? + </p> + <p> + But how do you mean, Socrates? said Eryxias, interrupting. Do we not + employ in our intercourse with one another speech and violence (?) and + various other things? These are useful and yet they are not wealth. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Clearly we have not yet answered the question, What is wealth? + That wealth must be useful, to be wealth at all,—thus much is + acknowledged by every one. But what particular thing is wealth, if not all + things? Let us pursue the argument in another way; and then we may perhaps + find what we are seeking. What is the use of wealth, and for what purpose + has the possession of riches been invented,—in the sense, I mean, in + which drugs have been discovered for the cure of disease? Perhaps in this + way we may throw some light on the question. It appears to be clear that + whatever constitutes wealth must be useful, and that wealth is one class + of useful things; and now we have to enquire, What is the use of those + useful things which constitute wealth? For all things probably may be said + to be useful which we use in production, just as all things which have + life are animals, but there is a special kind of animal which we call + 'man.' Now if any one were to ask us, What is that of which, if we were + rid, we should not want medicine and the instruments of medicine, we might + reply that this would be the case if disease were absent from our bodies + and either never came to them at all or went away again as soon as it + appeared; and we may therefore conclude that medicine is the science which + is useful for getting rid of disease. But if we are further asked, What is + that from which, if we were free, we should have no need of wealth? can we + give an answer? If we have none, suppose that we restate the question + thus:—If a man could live without food or drink, and yet suffer + neither hunger nor thirst, would he want either money or anything else in + order to supply his needs? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: He would not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And does not this apply in other cases? If we did not want for + the service of the body the things of which we now stand in need, and heat + and cold and the other bodily sensations were unperceived by us, there + would be no use in this so-called wealth, if no one, that is, had any + necessity for those things which now make us wish for wealth in order that + we may satisfy the desires and needs of the body in respect of our various + wants. And therefore if the possession of wealth is useful in ministering + to our bodily wants, and bodily wants were unknown to us, we should not + need wealth, and possibly there would be no such thing as wealth. + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Clearly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then our conclusion is, as would appear, that wealth is what is + useful to this end? + </p> + <p> + Eryxias once more gave his assent, but the small argument considerably + troubled him. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And what is your opinion about another question:—Would you + say that the same thing can be at one time useful and at another useless + for the production of the same result? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: I cannot say more than that if we require the same thing to + produce the same result, then it seems to me to be useful; if not, not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then if without the aid of fire we could make a brazen statue, + we should not want fire for that purpose; and if we did not want it, it + would be useless to us? And the argument applies equally in other cases. + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Clearly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And therefore conditions which are not required for the + existence of a thing are not useful for the production of it? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Of course not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if without gold or silver or anything else which we do not + use directly for the body in the way that we do food and drink and bedding + and houses,—if without these we could satisfy the wants of the body, + they would be of no use to us for that purpose? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: They would not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: They would no longer be regarded as wealth, because they are + useless, whereas that would be wealth which enabled us to obtain what was + useful to us? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: O Socrates, you will never be able to persuade me that gold and + silver and similar things are not wealth. But I am very strongly of + opinion that things which are useless to us are not wealth, and that the + money which is useful for this purpose is of the greatest use; not that + these things are not useful towards life, if by them we can procure + wealth. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And how would you answer another question? There are persons, + are there not, who teach music and grammar and other arts for pay, and + thus procure those things of which they stand in need? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: There are. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And these men by the arts which they profess, and in exchange + for them, obtain the necessities of life just as we do by means of gold + and silver? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then if they procure by this means what they want for the + purposes of life, that art will be useful towards life? For do we not say + that silver is useful because it enables us to supply our bodily needs? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: We do. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then if these arts are reckoned among things useful, the arts + are wealth for the same reason as gold and silver are, for, clearly, the + possession of them gives wealth. Yet a little while ago we found it + difficult to accept the argument which proved that the wisest are the + wealthiest. But now there seems no escape from this conclusion. Suppose + that we are asked, 'Is a horse useful to everybody?' will not our reply + be, 'No, but only to those who know how to use a horse?' + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And so, too, physic is not useful to every one, but only to him + who knows how to use it? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And the same is the case with everything else? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then gold and silver and all the other elements which are + supposed to make up wealth are only useful to the person who knows how to + use them? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Exactly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And were we not saying before that it was the business of a good + man and a gentleman to know where and how anything should be used? + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The good and gentle, therefore will alone have profit from these + things, supposing at least that they know how to use them. But if so, to + them only will they seem to be wealth. It appears, however, that where a + person is ignorant of riding, and has horses which are useless to him, if + some one teaches him that art, he makes him also richer, for what was + before useless has now become useful to him, and in giving him knowledge + he has also conferred riches upon him. + </p> + <p> + ERYXIAS: That is the case. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Yet I dare be sworn that Critias will not be moved a whit by the + argument. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: No, by heaven, I should be a madman if I were. But why do you not + finish the argument which proves that gold and silver and other things + which seem to be wealth are not real wealth? For I have been exceedingly + delighted to hear the discourses which you have just been holding. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: My argument, Critias (I said), appears to have given you the + same kind of pleasure which you might have derived from some rhapsode's + recitation of Homer; for you do not believe a word of what has been said. + But come now, give me an answer to this question. Are not certain things + useful to the builder when he is building a house? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: They are. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And would you say that those things are useful which are + employed in house building,—stones and bricks and beams and the + like, and also the instruments with which the builder built the house, the + beams and stones which they provided, and again the instruments by which + these were obtained? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: It seems to me that they are all useful for building. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And is it not true of every art, that not only the materials but + the instruments by which we procure them and without which the work could + not go on, are useful for that art? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And further, the instruments by which the instruments are + procured, and so on, going back from stage to stage ad infinitum,—are + not all these, in your opinion, necessary in order to carry out the work? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: We may fairly suppose such to be the case. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if a man has food and drink and clothes and the other things + which are useful to the body, would he need gold or silver or any other + means by which he could procure that which he now has? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: I do not think so. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then you consider that a man never wants any of these things for + the use of the body? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Certainly not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And if they appear useless to this end, ought they not always to + appear useless? For we have already laid down the principle that things + cannot be at one time useful and at another time not, in the same process. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: But in that respect your argument and mine are the same. For you + maintain if they are useful to a certain end, they can never become + useless; whereas I say that in order to accomplish some results bad things + are needed, and good for others. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But can a bad thing be used to carry out a good purpose? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: I should say not. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And we call those actions good which a man does for the sake of + virtue? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But can a man learn any kind of knowledge which is imparted by + word of mouth if he is wholly deprived of the sense of hearing? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Certainly not, I think. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And will not hearing be useful for virtue, if virtue is taught + by hearing and we use the sense of hearing in giving instruction? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Yes. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And since medicine frees the sick man from his disease, that art + too may sometimes appear useful in the acquisition of virtue, e.g. when + hearing is procured by the aid of medicine. + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Very likely. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But if, again, we obtain by wealth the aid of medicine, shall we + not regard wealth as useful for virtue? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And also the instruments by which wealth is procured? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then you think that a man may gain wealth by bad and disgraceful + means, and, having obtained the aid of medicine which enables him to + acquire the power of hearing, may use that very faculty for the + acquisition of virtue? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Yes, I do. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But can that which is evil be useful for virtue? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: No. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: It is not therefore necessary that the means by which we obtain + what is useful for a certain object should always be useful for the same + object: for it seems that bad actions may sometimes serve good purposes? + The matter will be still plainer if we look at it in this way:—If + things are useful towards the several ends for which they exist, which + ends would not come into existence without them, how would you regard + them? Can ignorance, for instance, be useful for knowledge, or disease for + health, or vice for virtue? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Never. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And yet we have already agreed—have we not?—that + there can be no knowledge where there has not previously been ignorance, + nor health where there has not been disease, nor virtue where there has + not been vice? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: I think that we have. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But then it would seem that the antecedents without which a + thing cannot exist are not necessarily useful to it. Otherwise ignorance + would appear useful for knowledge, disease for health, and vice for + virtue. + </p> + <p> + Critias still showed great reluctance to accept any argument which went to + prove that all these things were useless. I saw that it was as difficult + to persuade him as (according to the proverb) it is to boil a stone, so I + said: Let us bid 'good-bye' to the discussion, since we cannot agree + whether these things are useful and a part of wealth or not. But what + shall we say to another question: Which is the happier and better man,—he + who requires the greatest quantity of necessaries for body and diet, or he + who requires only the fewest and least? The answer will perhaps become + more obvious if we suppose some one, comparing the man himself at + different times, to consider whether his condition is better when he is + sick or when he is well? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: That is not a question which needs much consideration. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Probably, I said, every one can understand that health is a + better condition than disease. But when have we the greatest and the most + various needs, when we are sick or when we are well? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: When we are sick. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And when we are in the worst state we have the greatest and most + especial need and desire of bodily pleasures? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: True. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And seeing that a man is best off when he is least in need of + such things, does not the same reasoning apply to the case of any two + persons, of whom one has many and great wants and desires, and the other + few and moderate? For instance, some men are gamblers, some drunkards, and + some gluttons: and gambling and the love of drink and greediness are all + desires? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Certainly. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: But desires are only the lack of something: and those who have + the greatest desires are in a worse condition than those who have none or + very slight ones? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: Certainly I consider that those who have such wants are bad, and + that the greater their wants the worse they are. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And do we think it possible that a thing should be useful for a + purpose unless we have need of it for that purpose? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: No. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: Then if these things are useful for supplying the needs of the + body, we must want them for that purpose? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: That is my opinion. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: And he to whom the greatest number of things are useful for his + purpose, will also want the greatest number of means of accomplishing it, + supposing that we necessarily feel the want of all useful things? + </p> + <p> + CRITIAS: It seems so. + </p> + <p> + SOCRATES: The argument proves then that he who has great riches has + likewise need of many things for the supply of the wants of the body; for + wealth appears useful towards that end. And the richest must be in the + worst condition, since they seem to be most in want of such things. + </p> + <p> + <br /><br /><br /><br /> + </p> +<pre xml:space="preserve"> + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Eryxias, by An Imitator of Plato + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ERYXIAS *** + +***** This file should be named 1681-h.htm or 1681-h.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + http://www.gutenberg.org/1/6/8/1681/ + +Produced by Sue Asscher, and David Widger + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. 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You may copy it, give it away or +re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included +with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org + + +Title: Eryxias + +Author: An Imitator of Plato + +Translator: Benjamin Jowett + +Posting Date: November 6, 2008 [EBook #1681] +Release Date: March, 1999 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: ASCII + +*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ERYXIAS *** + + + + +Produced by Sue Asscher + + + + + +ERYXIAS + +By a Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II) + + + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + + + +APPENDIX II. + +The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not +mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim +to be ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be +assigned probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when +his writings were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit +considerable originality, and are remarkable for containing several +thoughts of the sort which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient, +and which therefore have a peculiar interest for us. The Second +Alcibiades shows that the difficulties about prayer which have perplexed +Christian theologians were not unknown among the followers of Plato. +The Eryxias was doubted by the ancients themselves: yet it may claim the +distinction of being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one which +anticipates in the most striking manner the modern science of political +economy and gives an abstract form to some of its principal doctrines. + +For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend +and secretary, Mr. Knight. + +That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a +genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, +and was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is +poor and weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and +there is a certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which +is very un-Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the +poets:--the remark that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is +uncommonly difficult to understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of +Homer, are entirely in the spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). +The characters are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and +preaches too much, while Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There +are traces of Stoic influence in the general tone and phraseology of the +Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): +and the writer seems to have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato +(compare Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather clumsily +introduced, and two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. +The reference to the death of Archelaus as having occurred 'quite +lately' is only a fiction, probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the +story of Archelaus is told, and a similar phrase occurs;--ta gar echthes +kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages which +are either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed. But there is a modern +interest in the subject of the dialogue; and it is a good example of +a short spurious work, which may be attributed to the second or third +century before Christ. + + + + +INTRODUCTION. + +Much cannot be said in praise of the style or conception of the Eryxias. +It is frequently obscure; like the exercise of a student, it is full +of small imitations of Plato:--Phaeax returning from an expedition to +Sicily (compare Socrates in the Charmides from the army at Potidaea), +the figure of the game at draughts, borrowed from the Republic, etc. It +has also in many passages the ring of sophistry. On the other hand, the +rather unhandsome treatment which is exhibited towards Prodicus is quite +unlike the urbanity of Plato. + +Yet there are some points in the argument which are deserving of +attention. (1) That wealth depends upon the need of it or demand for +it, is the first anticipation in an abstract form of one of the great +principles of modern political economy, and the nearest approach to it +to be found in an ancient writer. (2) The resolution of wealth into +its simplest implements going on to infinity is a subtle and refined +thought. (3) That wealth is relative to circumstances is a sound +conception. (4) That the arts and sciences which receive payment are +likewise to be comprehended under the notion of wealth, also touches a +question of modern political economy. (5) The distinction of post hoc +and propter hoc, often lost sight of in modern as well as in ancient +times. These metaphysical conceptions and distinctions show considerable +power of thought in the writer, whatever we may think of his merits as +an imitator of Plato. + + + + +ERYXIAS + + +PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Eryxias, Erasistratus, Critias. + +SCENE: The portico of a temple of Zeus. + + +It happened by chance that Eryxias the Steirian was walking with me in +the Portico of Zeus the Deliverer, when there came up to us Critias +and Erasistratus, the latter the son of Phaeax, who was the nephew of +Erasistratus. Now Erasistratus had just arrived from Sicily and that +part of the world. As they approached, he said, Hail, Socrates! + +SOCRATES: The same to you, I said; have you any good news from Sicily to +tell us? + +ERASISTRATUS: Most excellent. But, if you please, let us first sit down; +for I am tired with my yesterday's journey from Megara. + +SOCRATES: Gladly, if that is your desire. + +ERASISTRATUS: What would you wish to hear first? he said. What the +Sicilians are doing, or how they are disposed towards our city? To my +mind, they are very like wasps: so long as you only cause them a little +annoyance they are quite unmanageable; you must destroy their nests +if you wish to get the better of them. And in a similar way, the +Syracusans, unless we set to work in earnest, and go against them with +a great expedition, will never submit to our rule. The petty injuries +which we at present inflict merely irritate them enough to make them +utterly intractable. And now they have sent ambassadors to Athens, and +intend, I suspect, to play us some trick.--While we were talking, the +Syracusan envoys chanced to go by, and Erasistratus, pointing to one of +them, said to me, That, Socrates, is the richest man in all Italy and +Sicily. For who has larger estates or more land at his disposal to +cultivate if he please? And they are of a quality, too, finer than any +other land in Hellas. Moreover, he has all the things which go to make +up wealth, slaves and horses innumerable, gold and silver without end. + +I saw that he was inclined to expatiate on the riches of the man; so I +asked him, Well, Erasistratus, and what sort of character does he bear +in Sicily? + +ERASISTRATUS: He is esteemed to be, and really is, the wickedest of +all the Sicilians and Italians, and even more wicked than he is rich; +indeed, if you were to ask any Sicilian whom he thought to be the worst +and the richest of mankind, you would never hear any one else named. + +I reflected that we were speaking, not of trivial matters, but about +wealth and virtue, which are deemed to be of the greatest moment, and +I asked Erasistratus whom he considered the wealthier,--he who was the +possessor of a talent of silver or he who had a field worth two talents? + +ERASISTRATUS: The owner of the field. + +SOCRATES: And on the same principle he who had robes and bedding and +such things which are of greater value to him than to a stranger would +be richer than the stranger? + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: And if any one gave you a choice, which of these would you +prefer? + +ERASISTRATUS: That which was most valuable. + +SOCRATES: In which way do you think you would be the richer? + +ERASISTRATUS: By choosing as I said. + +SOCRATES: And he appears to you to be the richest who has goods of the +greatest value? + +ERASISTRATUS: He does. + +SOCRATES: And are not the healthy richer than the sick, since health is +a possession more valuable than riches to the sick? Surely there is no +one who would not prefer to be poor and well, rather than to have all +the King of Persia's wealth and to be ill. And this proves that men set +health above wealth, else they would never choose the one in preference +to the other. + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: And if anything appeared to be more valuable than health, he +would be the richest who possessed it? + +ERASISTRATUS: He would. + +SOCRATES: Suppose that some one came to us at this moment and were to +ask, Well, Socrates and Eryxias and Erasistratus, can you tell me what +is of the greatest value to men? Is it not that of which the possession +will best enable a man to advise how his own and his friend's affairs +should be administered?--What will be our reply? + +ERASISTRATUS: I should say, Socrates, that happiness was the most +precious of human possessions. + +SOCRATES: Not a bad answer. But do we not deem those men who are most +prosperous to be the happiest? + +ERASISTRATUS: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: And are they not most prosperous who commit the fewest errors +in respect either of themselves or of other men? + +ERASISTRATUS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And they who know what is evil and what is good; what should +be done and what should be left undone;--these behave the most wisely +and make the fewest mistakes? + +Erasistratus agreed to this. + +SOCRATES: Then the wisest and those who do best and the most fortunate +and the richest would appear to be all one and the same, if wisdom is +really the most valuable of our possessions? + +Yes, said Eryxias, interposing, but what use would it be if a man had +the wisdom of Nestor and wanted the necessaries of life, food and drink +and clothes and the like? Where would be the advantage of wisdom then? +Or how could he be the richest of men who might even have to go begging, +because he had not wherewithal to live? + +I thought that what Eryxias was saying had some weight, and I +replied, Would the wise man really suffer in this way, if he were so +ill-provided; whereas if he had the house of Polytion, and the house +were full of gold and silver, he would lack nothing? + +ERYXIAS: Yes; for then he might dispose of his property and obtain in +exchange what he needed, or he might sell it for money with which he +could supply his wants and in a moment procure abundance of everything. + +SOCRATES: True, if he could find some one who preferred such a house to +the wisdom of Nestor. But if there are persons who set great store by +wisdom like Nestor's and the advantages accruing from it, to sell these, +if he were so disposed, would be easier still. Or is a house a most +useful and necessary possession, and does it make a great difference in +the comfort of life to have a mansion like Polytion's instead of living +in a shabby little cottage, whereas wisdom is of small use and it is +of no importance whether a man is wise or ignorant about the highest +matters? Or is wisdom despised of men and can find no buyers, although +cypress wood and marble of Pentelicus are eagerly bought by numerous +purchasers? Surely the prudent pilot or the skilful physician, or the +artist of any kind who is proficient in his art, is more worth than the +things which are especially reckoned among riches; and he who can advise +well and prudently for himself and others is able also to sell the +product of his art, if he so desire. + +Eryxias looked askance, as if he had received some unfair treatment, and +said, I believe, Socrates, that if you were forced to speak the +truth, you would declare that you were richer than Callias the son of +Hipponicus. And yet, although you claimed to be wiser about things of +real importance, you would not any the more be richer than he. + +I dare say, Eryxias, I said, that you may regard these arguments of ours +as a kind of game; you think that they have no relation to facts, but +are like the pieces in the game of draughts which the player can move +in such a way that his opponents are unable to make any countermove. +(Compare Republic.) And perhaps, too, as regards riches you are of +opinion that while facts remain the same, there are arguments, no matter +whether true or false, which enable the user of them to prove that the +wisest and the richest are one and the same, although he is in the wrong +and his opponents are in the right. There would be nothing strange in +this; it would be as if two persons were to dispute about letters, one +declaring that the word Socrates began with an S, the other that it +began with an A, and the latter could gain the victory over the former. + +Eryxias glanced at the audience, laughing and blushing at once, as if +he had had nothing to do with what had just been said, and replied,--No, +indeed, Socrates, I never supposed that our arguments should be of a +kind which would never convince any one of those here present or be of +advantage to them. For what man of sense could ever be persuaded that +the wisest and the richest are the same? The truth is that we are +discussing the subject of riches, and my notion is that we should +argue respecting the honest and dishonest means of acquiring them, and, +generally, whether they are a good thing or a bad. + +Very good, I said, and I am obliged to you for the hint: in future we +will be more careful. But why do not you yourself, as you introduced the +argument, and do not think that the former discussion touched the point +at issue, tell us whether you consider riches to be a good or an evil? + +I am of opinion, he said, that they are a good. He was about to add +something more, when Critias interrupted him:--Do you really suppose so, +Eryxias? + +Certainly, replied Eryxias; I should be mad if I did not: and I do not +fancy that you would find any one else of a contrary opinion. + +And I, retorted Critias, should say that there is no one whom I could +not compel to admit that riches are bad for some men. But surely, if +they were a good, they could not appear bad for any one? + +Here I interposed and said to them: If you two were having an argument +about equitation and what was the best way of riding, supposing that I +knew the art myself, I should try to bring you to an agreement. For +I should be ashamed if I were present and did not do what I could +to prevent your difference. And I should do the same if you were +quarrelling about any other art and were likely, unless you agreed on +the point in dispute, to part as enemies instead of as friends. But now, +when we are contending about a thing of which the usefulness continues +during the whole of life, and it makes an enormous difference whether we +are to regard it as beneficial or not,--a thing, too, which is esteemed +of the highest importance by the Hellenes:--(for parents, as soon as +their children are, as they think, come to years of discretion, urge +them to consider how wealth may be acquired, since by riches the value +of a man is judged):--When, I say, we are thus in earnest, and you, +who agree in other respects, fall to disputing about a matter of such +moment, that is, about wealth, and not merely whether it is black or +white, light or heavy, but whether it is a good or an evil, whereby, +although you are now the dearest of friends and kinsmen, the most bitter +hatred may arise betwixt you, I must hinder your dissension to the best +of my power. If I could, I would tell you the truth, and so put an end +to the dispute; but as I cannot do this, and each of you supposes that +you can bring the other to an agreement, I am prepared, as far as my +capacity admits, to help you in solving the question. Please, therefore, +Critias, try to make us accept the doctrines which you yourself +entertain. + +CRITIAS: I should like to follow up the argument, and will ask Eryxias +whether he thinks that there are just and unjust men? + +ERYXIAS: Most decidedly. + +CRITIAS: And does injustice seem to you an evil or a good? + +ERYXIAS: An evil. + +CRITIAS: Do you consider that he who bribes his neighbour's wife and +commits adultery with her, acts justly or unjustly, and this although +both the state and the laws forbid? + +ERYXIAS: Unjustly. + +CRITIAS: And if the wicked man has wealth and is willing to spend it, +he will carry out his evil purposes? whereas he who is short of means +cannot do what he fain would, and therefore does not sin? In such a +case, surely, it is better that a person should not be wealthy, if his +poverty prevents the accomplishment of his desires, and his desires are +evil? Or, again, should you call sickness a good or an evil? + +ERYXIAS: An evil. + +CRITIAS: Well, and do you think that some men are intemperate? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +CRITIAS: Then, if it is better for his health that the intemperate man +should refrain from meat and drink and other pleasant things, but he +cannot owing to his intemperance, will it not also be better that he +should be too poor to gratify his lust rather than that he should have +a superabundance of means? For thus he will not be able to sin, although +he desire never so much. + +Critias appeared to be arguing so admirably that Eryxias, if he had not +been ashamed of the bystanders, would probably have got up and struck +him. For he thought that he had been robbed of a great possession when +it became obvious to him that he had been wrong in his former opinion +about wealth. I observed his vexation, and feared that they would +proceed to abuse and quarrelling: so I said,--I heard that very argument +used in the Lyceum yesterday by a wise man, Prodicus of Ceos; but the +audience thought that he was talking mere nonsense, and no one could +be persuaded that he was speaking the truth. And when at last a certain +talkative young gentleman came in, and, taking his seat, began to laugh +and jeer at Prodicus, tormenting him and demanding an explanation of his +argument, he gained the ear of the audience far more than Prodicus. + +Can you repeat the discourse to us? Said Erasistratus. + +SOCRATES: If I can only remember it, I will. The youth began by asking +Prodicus, In what way did he think that riches were a good and in what +an evil? Prodicus answered, as you did just now, that they were a good +to good men and to those who knew in what way they should be employed, +while to the bad and the ignorant they were an evil. The same is true, +he went on to say, of all other things; men make them to be what they +are themselves. The saying of Archilochus is true:-- + +'Men's thoughts correspond to the things which they meet with.' + +Well, then, replied the youth, if any one makes me wise in that wisdom +whereby good men become wise, he must also make everything else good to +me. Not that he concerns himself at all with these other things, but he +has converted my ignorance into wisdom. If, for example, a person teach +me grammar or music, he will at the same time teach me all that relates +to grammar or music, and so when he makes me good, he makes things good +to me. + +Prodicus did not altogether agree: still he consented to what was said. + +And do you think, said the youth, that doing good things is like +building a house,--the work of human agency; or do things remain what +they were at first, good or bad, for all time? + +Prodicus began to suspect, I fancy, the direction which the argument +was likely to take, and did not wish to be put down by a mere stripling +before all those present:--(if they two had been alone, he would not +have minded):--so he answered, cleverly enough: I think that doing good +things is a work of human agency. + +And is virtue in your opinion, Prodicus, innate or acquired by +instruction? + +The latter, said Prodicus. + +Then you would consider him a simpleton who supposed that he could +obtain by praying to the Gods the knowledge of grammar or music or +any other art, which he must either learn from another or find out for +himself? + +Prodicus agreed to this also. + +And when you pray to the Gods that you may do well and receive good, you +mean by your prayer nothing else than that you desire to become good and +wise:--if, at least, things are good to the good and wise and evil to +the evil. But in that case, if virtue is acquired by instruction, it +would appear that you only pray to be taught what you do not know. + +Hereupon I said to Prodicus that it was no misfortune to him if he +had been proved to be in error in supposing that the Gods immediately +granted to us whatever we asked:--if, I added, whenever you go up to +the Acropolis you earnestly entreat the Gods to grant you good things, +although you know not whether they can yield your request, it is as +though you went to the doors of the grammarian and begged him, although +you had never made a study of the art, to give you a knowledge of +grammar which would enable you forthwith to do the business of a +grammarian. + +While I was speaking, Prodicus was preparing to retaliate upon his +youthful assailant, intending to employ the argument of which you have +just made use; for he was annoyed to have it supposed that he offered a +vain prayer to the Gods. But the master of the gymnasium came to him and +begged him to leave because he was teaching the youths doctrines which +were unsuited to them, and therefore bad for them. + +I have told you this because I want you to understand how men are +circumstanced in regard to philosophy. Had Prodicus been present and +said what you have said, the audience would have thought him raving, and +he would have been ejected from the gymnasium. But you have argued so +excellently well that you have not only persuaded your hearers, but have +brought your opponent to an agreement. For just as in the law courts, +if two witnesses testify to the same fact, one of whom seems to be an +honest fellow and the other a rogue, the testimony of the rogue often +has the contrary effect on the judges' minds to what he intended, while +the same evidence if given by the honest man at once strikes them as +perfectly true. And probably the audience have something of the same +feeling about yourself and Prodicus; they think him a Sophist and a +braggart, and regard you as a gentleman of courtesy and worth. For they +do not pay attention to the argument so much as to the character of the +speaker. + +But truly, Socrates, said Erasistratus, though you may be joking, +Critias does seem to me to be saying something which is of weight. + +SOCRATES: I am in profound earnest, I assure you. But why, as you have +begun your argument so prettily, do you not go on with the rest? There +is still something lacking, now you have agreed that (wealth) is a good +to some and an evil to others. It remains to enquire what constitutes +wealth; for unless you know this, you cannot possibly come to an +understanding as to whether it is a good or an evil. I am ready to +assist you in the enquiry to the utmost of my power: but first let him +who affirms that riches are a good, tell us what, in his opinion, is +wealth. + +ERASISTRATUS: Indeed, Socrates, I have no notion about wealth beyond +that which men commonly have. I suppose that wealth is a quantity of +money (compare Arist. Pol.); and this, I imagine, would also be Critias' +definition. + +SOCRATES: Then now we have to consider, What is money? Or else later +on we shall be found to differ about the question. For instance, the +Carthaginians use money of this sort. Something which is about the size +of a stater is tied up in a small piece of leather: what it is, no one +knows but the makers. A seal is next set upon the leather, which then +passes into circulation, and he who has the largest number of such +pieces is esteemed the richest and best off. And yet if any one among us +had a mass of such coins he would be no wealthier than if he had so many +pebbles from the mountain. At Lacedaemon, again, they use iron by weight +which has been rendered useless: and he who has the greatest mass of +such iron is thought to be the richest, although elsewhere it has +no value. In Ethiopia engraved stones are employed, of which a +Lacedaemonian could make no use. Once more, among the Nomad Scythians a +man who owned the house of Polytion would not be thought richer than one +who possessed Mount Lycabettus among ourselves. And clearly those things +cannot all be regarded as possessions; for in some cases the possessors +would appear none the richer thereby: but, as I was saying, some one of +them is thought in one place to be money, and the possessors of it +are the wealthy, whereas in some other place it is not money, and the +ownership of it does not confer wealth; just as the standard of morals +varies, and what is honourable to some men is dishonourable to others. +And if we wish to enquire why a house is valuable to us but not to the +Scythians, or why the Carthaginians value leather which is worthless to +us, or the Lacedaemonians find wealth in iron and we do not, can we not +get an answer in some such way as this: Would an Athenian, who had a +thousand talents weight of the stones which lie about in the Agora and +which we do not employ for any purpose, be thought to be any the richer? + +ERASISTRATUS: He certainly would not appear so to me. + +SOCRATES: But if he possessed a thousand talents weight of some precious +stone, we should say that he was very rich? + +ERASISTRATUS: Of course. + +SOCRATES: The reason is that the one is useless and the other useful? + +ERASISTRATUS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And in the same way among the Scythians a house has no value +because they have no use for a house, nor would a Scythian set so much +store on the finest house in the world as on a leather coat, because he +could use the one and not the other. Or again, the Carthaginian coinage +is not wealth in our eyes, for we could not employ it, as we can silver, +to procure what we need, and therefore it is of no use to us. + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: What is useful to us, then, is wealth, and what is useless to +us is not wealth? + +But how do you mean, Socrates? said Eryxias, interrupting. Do we not +employ in our intercourse with one another speech and violence (?) and +various other things? These are useful and yet they are not wealth. + +SOCRATES: Clearly we have not yet answered the question, What is +wealth? That wealth must be useful, to be wealth at all,--thus much is +acknowledged by every one. But what particular thing is wealth, if not +all things? Let us pursue the argument in another way; and then we may +perhaps find what we are seeking. What is the use of wealth, and for +what purpose has the possession of riches been invented,--in the sense, +I mean, in which drugs have been discovered for the cure of disease? +Perhaps in this way we may throw some light on the question. It appears +to be clear that whatever constitutes wealth must be useful, and that +wealth is one class of useful things; and now we have to enquire, What +is the use of those useful things which constitute wealth? For all +things probably may be said to be useful which we use in production, +just as all things which have life are animals, but there is a special +kind of animal which we call 'man.' Now if any one were to ask us, What +is that of which, if we were rid, we should not want medicine and the +instruments of medicine, we might reply that this would be the case if +disease were absent from our bodies and either never came to them at all +or went away again as soon as it appeared; and we may therefore conclude +that medicine is the science which is useful for getting rid of disease. +But if we are further asked, What is that from which, if we were free, +we should have no need of wealth? can we give an answer? If we have +none, suppose that we restate the question thus:--If a man could live +without food or drink, and yet suffer neither hunger nor thirst, would +he want either money or anything else in order to supply his needs? + +ERYXIAS: He would not. + +SOCRATES: And does not this apply in other cases? If we did not want for +the service of the body the things of which we now stand in need, and +heat and cold and the other bodily sensations were unperceived by us, +there would be no use in this so-called wealth, if no one, that is, +had any necessity for those things which now make us wish for wealth in +order that we may satisfy the desires and needs of the body in respect +of our various wants. And therefore if the possession of wealth is +useful in ministering to our bodily wants, and bodily wants were unknown +to us, we should not need wealth, and possibly there would be no such +thing as wealth. + +ERYXIAS: Clearly not. + +SOCRATES: Then our conclusion is, as would appear, that wealth is what +is useful to this end? + +Eryxias once more gave his assent, but the small argument considerably +troubled him. + +SOCRATES: And what is your opinion about another question:--Would you +say that the same thing can be at one time useful and at another useless +for the production of the same result? + +ERYXIAS: I cannot say more than that if we require the same thing to +produce the same result, then it seems to me to be useful; if not, not. + +SOCRATES: Then if without the aid of fire we could make a brazen statue, +we should not want fire for that purpose; and if we did not want it, it +would be useless to us? And the argument applies equally in other cases. + +ERYXIAS: Clearly. + +SOCRATES: And therefore conditions which are not required for the +existence of a thing are not useful for the production of it? + +ERYXIAS: Of course not. + +SOCRATES: And if without gold or silver or anything else which we do +not use directly for the body in the way that we do food and drink and +bedding and houses,--if without these we could satisfy the wants of the +body, they would be of no use to us for that purpose? + +ERYXIAS: They would not. + +SOCRATES: They would no longer be regarded as wealth, because they are +useless, whereas that would be wealth which enabled us to obtain what +was useful to us? + +ERYXIAS: O Socrates, you will never be able to persuade me that gold +and silver and similar things are not wealth. But I am very strongly of +opinion that things which are useless to us are not wealth, and that the +money which is useful for this purpose is of the greatest use; not that +these things are not useful towards life, if by them we can procure +wealth. + +SOCRATES: And how would you answer another question? There are persons, +are there not, who teach music and grammar and other arts for pay, and +thus procure those things of which they stand in need? + +ERYXIAS: There are. + +SOCRATES: And these men by the arts which they profess, and in exchange +for them, obtain the necessities of life just as we do by means of gold +and silver? + +ERYXIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: Then if they procure by this means what they want for the +purposes of life, that art will be useful towards life? For do we not +say that silver is useful because it enables us to supply our bodily +needs? + +ERYXIAS: We do. + +SOCRATES: Then if these arts are reckoned among things useful, the arts +are wealth for the same reason as gold and silver are, for, clearly, +the possession of them gives wealth. Yet a little while ago we found it +difficult to accept the argument which proved that the wisest are the +wealthiest. But now there seems no escape from this conclusion. Suppose +that we are asked, 'Is a horse useful to everybody?' will not our reply +be, 'No, but only to those who know how to use a horse?' + +ERYXIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And so, too, physic is not useful to every one, but only to +him who knows how to use it? + +ERYXIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And the same is the case with everything else? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then gold and silver and all the other elements which are +supposed to make up wealth are only useful to the person who knows how +to use them? + +ERYXIAS: Exactly. + +SOCRATES: And were we not saying before that it was the business of a +good man and a gentleman to know where and how anything should be used? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The good and gentle, therefore will alone have profit from +these things, supposing at least that they know how to use them. But if +so, to them only will they seem to be wealth. It appears, however, that +where a person is ignorant of riding, and has horses which are useless +to him, if some one teaches him that art, he makes him also richer, for +what was before useless has now become useful to him, and in giving him +knowledge he has also conferred riches upon him. + +ERYXIAS: That is the case. + +SOCRATES: Yet I dare be sworn that Critias will not be moved a whit by +the argument. + +CRITIAS: No, by heaven, I should be a madman if I were. But why do you +not finish the argument which proves that gold and silver and other +things which seem to be wealth are not real wealth? For I have been +exceedingly delighted to hear the discourses which you have just been +holding. + +SOCRATES: My argument, Critias (I said), appears to have given you the +same kind of pleasure which you might have derived from some rhapsode's +recitation of Homer; for you do not believe a word of what has been +said. But come now, give me an answer to this question. Are not certain +things useful to the builder when he is building a house? + +CRITIAS: They are. + +SOCRATES: And would you say that those things are useful which are +employed in house building,--stones and bricks and beams and the like, +and also the instruments with which the builder built the house, the +beams and stones which they provided, and again the instruments by which +these were obtained? + +CRITIAS: It seems to me that they are all useful for building. + +SOCRATES: And is it not true of every art, that not only the materials +but the instruments by which we procure them and without which the work +could not go on, are useful for that art? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And further, the instruments by which the instruments are +procured, and so on, going back from stage to stage ad infinitum,--are +not all these, in your opinion, necessary in order to carry out the +work? + +CRITIAS: We may fairly suppose such to be the case. + +SOCRATES: And if a man has food and drink and clothes and the other +things which are useful to the body, would he need gold or silver or any +other means by which he could procure that which he now has? + +CRITIAS: I do not think so. + +SOCRATES: Then you consider that a man never wants any of these things +for the use of the body? + +CRITIAS: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And if they appear useless to this end, ought they not always +to appear useless? For we have already laid down the principle that +things cannot be at one time useful and at another time not, in the same +process. + +CRITIAS: But in that respect your argument and mine are the same. For +you maintain if they are useful to a certain end, they can never become +useless; whereas I say that in order to accomplish some results bad +things are needed, and good for others. + +SOCRATES: But can a bad thing be used to carry out a good purpose? + +CRITIAS: I should say not. + +SOCRATES: And we call those actions good which a man does for the sake +of virtue? + +CRITIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: But can a man learn any kind of knowledge which is imparted by +word of mouth if he is wholly deprived of the sense of hearing? + +CRITIAS: Certainly not, I think. + +SOCRATES: And will not hearing be useful for virtue, if virtue is taught +by hearing and we use the sense of hearing in giving instruction? + +CRITIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And since medicine frees the sick man from his disease, that +art too may sometimes appear useful in the acquisition of virtue, e.g. +when hearing is procured by the aid of medicine. + +CRITIAS: Very likely. + +SOCRATES: But if, again, we obtain by wealth the aid of medicine, shall +we not regard wealth as useful for virtue? + +CRITIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And also the instruments by which wealth is procured? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: Then you think that a man may gain wealth by bad and +disgraceful means, and, having obtained the aid of medicine which +enables him to acquire the power of hearing, may use that very faculty +for the acquisition of virtue? + +CRITIAS: Yes, I do. + +SOCRATES: But can that which is evil be useful for virtue? + +CRITIAS: No. + +SOCRATES: It is not therefore necessary that the means by which we +obtain what is useful for a certain object should always be useful for +the same object: for it seems that bad actions may sometimes serve good +purposes? The matter will be still plainer if we look at it in this +way:--If things are useful towards the several ends for which they +exist, which ends would not come into existence without them, how would +you regard them? Can ignorance, for instance, be useful for knowledge, +or disease for health, or vice for virtue? + +CRITIAS: Never. + +SOCRATES: And yet we have already agreed--have we not?--that there +can be no knowledge where there has not previously been ignorance, nor +health where there has not been disease, nor virtue where there has not +been vice? + +CRITIAS: I think that we have. + +SOCRATES: But then it would seem that the antecedents without which a +thing cannot exist are not necessarily useful to it. Otherwise ignorance +would appear useful for knowledge, disease for health, and vice for +virtue. + +Critias still showed great reluctance to accept any argument which +went to prove that all these things were useless. I saw that it was as +difficult to persuade him as (according to the proverb) it is to boil +a stone, so I said: Let us bid 'good-bye' to the discussion, since we +cannot agree whether these things are useful and a part of wealth or +not. But what shall we say to another question: Which is the happier and +better man,--he who requires the greatest quantity of necessaries for +body and diet, or he who requires only the fewest and least? The answer +will perhaps become more obvious if we suppose some one, comparing the +man himself at different times, to consider whether his condition is +better when he is sick or when he is well? + +CRITIAS: That is not a question which needs much consideration. + +SOCRATES: Probably, I said, every one can understand that health is a +better condition than disease. But when have we the greatest and the +most various needs, when we are sick or when we are well? + +CRITIAS: When we are sick. + +SOCRATES: And when we are in the worst state we have the greatest and +most especial need and desire of bodily pleasures? + +CRITIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And seeing that a man is best off when he is least in need of +such things, does not the same reasoning apply to the case of any two +persons, of whom one has many and great wants and desires, and the other +few and moderate? For instance, some men are gamblers, some drunkards, +and some gluttons: and gambling and the love of drink and greediness are +all desires? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: But desires are only the lack of something: and those who have +the greatest desires are in a worse condition than those who have none +or very slight ones? + +CRITIAS: Certainly I consider that those who have such wants are bad, +and that the greater their wants the worse they are. + +SOCRATES: And do we think it possible that a thing should be useful for +a purpose unless we have need of it for that purpose? + +CRITIAS: No. + +SOCRATES: Then if these things are useful for supplying the needs of the +body, we must want them for that purpose? + +CRITIAS: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: And he to whom the greatest number of things are useful +for his purpose, will also want the greatest number of means of +accomplishing it, supposing that we necessarily feel the want of all +useful things? + +CRITIAS: It seems so. + +SOCRATES: The argument proves then that he who has great riches has +likewise need of many things for the supply of the wants of the body; +for wealth appears useful towards that end. And the richest must be in +the worst condition, since they seem to be most in want of such things. + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Eryxias, by An Imitator of Plato + +*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ERYXIAS *** + +***** This file should be named 1681.txt or 1681.zip ***** +This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: + http://www.gutenberg.org/1/6/8/1681/ + +Produced by Sue Asscher + +Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions +will be renamed. + +Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no +one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation +(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without +permission and without paying copyright royalties. Special rules, +set forth in the General Terms of Use part of this license, apply to +copying and distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works to +protect the PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm concept and trademark. 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FOR PUBLIC DOMAIN ETEXTS*Ver.04.29.93*END* + + + + + +This etext was prepared by Sue Asscher <asschers@aia.net.au> + + + + + +ERYXIAS + +by a Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II) + + + + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + + + +APPENDIX II. + +The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not +mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim to be +ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be assigned +probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when his writings +were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit considerable +originality, and are remarkable for containing several thoughts of the sort +which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient, and which therefore have +a peculiar interest for us. The Second Alcibiades shows that the +difficulties about prayer which have perplexed Christian theologians were +not unknown among the followers of Plato. The Eryxias was doubted by the +ancients themselves: yet it may claim the distinction of being, among all +Greek or Roman writings, the one which anticipates in the most striking +manner the modern science of political economy and gives an abstract form +to some of its principal doctrines. + +For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend and +secretary, Mr. Knight. + +That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a +genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic, and +was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is poor and +weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and there is a +certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which is very un- +Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the poets:--the remark +that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is uncommonly difficult to +understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of Homer, are entirely in the +spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.). The characters are ill- +drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and preaches too much, while +Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There are traces of Stoic +influence in the general tone and phraseology of the Dialogue (compare opos +melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai): and the writer seems to +have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato (compare Laws). An incident +from the Symposium is rather clumsily introduced, and two somewhat +hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur. The reference to the death of +Archelaus as having occurred 'quite lately' is only a fiction, probably +suggested by the Gorgias, where the story of Archelaus is told, and a +similar phrase occurs;--ta gar echthes kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. +There are several passages which are either corrupt or extremely ill- +expressed. But there is a modern interest in the subject of the dialogue; +and it is a good example of a short spurious work, which may be attributed +to the second or third century before Christ. + + +ERYXIAS + +by + +Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II above) + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + +INTRODUCTION. + +Much cannot be said in praise of the style or conception of the Eryxias. +It is frequently obscure; like the exercise of a student, it is full of +small imitations of Plato:--Phaeax returning from an expedition to Sicily +(compare Socrates in the Charmides from the army at Potidaea), the figure +of the game at draughts, borrowed from the Republic, etc. It has also in +many passages the ring of sophistry. On the other hand, the rather +unhandsome treatment which is exhibited towards Prodicus is quite unlike +the urbanity of Plato. + +Yet there are some points in the argument which are deserving of attention. +(1) That wealth depends upon the need of it or demand for it, is the first +anticipation in an abstract form of one of the great principles of modern +political economy, and the nearest approach to it to be found in an ancient +writer. (2) The resolution of wealth into its simplest implements going on +to infinity is a subtle and refined thought. (3) That wealth is relative +to circumstances is a sound conception. (4) That the arts and sciences +which receive payment are likewise to be comprehended under the notion of +wealth, also touches a question of modern political economy. (5) The +distinction of post hoc and propter hoc, often lost sight of in modern as +well as in ancient times. These metaphysical conceptions and distinctions +show considerable power of thought in the writer, whatever we may think of +his merits as an imitator of Plato. + + +ERYXIAS + +by + +Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II above) + +Translated by Benjamin Jowett + + +PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Eryxias, Erasistratus, Critias. + +SCENE: The portico of a temple of Zeus. + + +It happened by chance that Eryxias the Steirian was walking with me in the +Portico of Zeus the Deliverer, when there came up to us Critias and +Erasistratus, the latter the son of Phaeax, who was the nephew of +Erasistratus. Now Erasistratus had just arrived from Sicily and that part +of the world. As they approached, he said, Hail, Socrates! + +SOCRATES: The same to you, I said; have you any good news from Sicily to +tell us? + +ERASISTRATUS: Most excellent. But, if you please, let us first sit down; +for I am tired with my yesterday's journey from Megara. + +SOCRATES: Gladly, if that is your desire. + +ERASISTRATUS: What would you wish to hear first? he said. What the +Sicilians are doing, or how they are disposed towards our city? To my +mind, they are very like wasps: so long as you only cause them a little +annoyance they are quite unmanageable; you must destroy their nests if you +wish to get the better of them. And in a similar way, the Syracusans, +unless we set to work in earnest, and go against them with a great +expedition, will never submit to our rule. The petty injuries which we at +present inflict merely irritate them enough to make them utterly +intractable. And now they have sent ambassadors to Athens, and intend, I +suspect, to play us some trick.--While we were talking, the Syracusan +envoys chanced to go by, and Erasistratus, pointing to one of them, said to +me, That, Socrates, is the richest man in all Italy and Sicily. For who +has larger estates or more land at his disposal to cultivate if he please? +And they are of a quality, too, finer than any other land in Hellas. +Moreover, he has all the things which go to make up wealth, slaves and +horses innumerable, gold and silver without end. + +I saw that he was inclined to expatiate on the riches of the man; so I +asked him, Well, Erasistratus, and what sort of character does he bear in +Sicily? + +ERASISTRATUS: He is esteemed to be, and really is, the wickedest of all +the Sicilians and Italians, and even more wicked than he is rich; indeed, +if you were to ask any Sicilian whom he thought to be the worst and the +richest of mankind, you would never hear any one else named. + +I reflected that we were speaking, not of trivial matters, but about wealth +and virtue, which are deemed to be of the greatest moment, and I asked +Erasistratus whom he considered the wealthier,--he who was the possessor of +a talent of silver or he who had a field worth two talents? + +ERASISTRATUS: The owner of the field. + +SOCRATES: And on the same principle he who had robes and bedding and such +things which are of greater value to him than to a stranger would be richer +than the stranger? + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: And if any one gave you a choice, which of these would you +prefer? + +ERASISTRATUS: That which was most valuable. + +SOCRATES: In which way do you think you would be the richer? + +ERASISTRATUS: By choosing as I said. + +SOCRATES: And he appears to you to be the richest who has goods of the +greatest value? + +ERASISTRATUS: He does. + +SOCRATES: And are not the healthy richer than the sick, since health is a +possession more valuable than riches to the sick? Surely there is no one +who would not prefer to be poor and well, rather than to have all the King +of Persia's wealth and to be ill. And this proves that men set health +above wealth, else they would never choose the one in preference to the +other. + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: And if anything appeared to be more valuable than health, he +would be the richest who possessed it? + +ERASISTRATUS: He would. + +SOCRATES: Suppose that some one came to us at this moment and were to ask, +Well, Socrates and Eryxias and Erasistratus, can you tell me what is of the +greatest value to men? Is it not that of which the possession will best +enable a man to advise how his own and his friend's affairs should be +administered?--What will be our reply? + +ERASISTRATUS: I should say, Socrates, that happiness was the most precious +of human possessions. + +SOCRATES: Not a bad answer. But do we not deem those men who are most +prosperous to be the happiest? + +ERASISTRATUS: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: And are they not most prosperous who commit the fewest errors in +respect either of themselves or of other men? + +ERASISTRATUS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And they who know what is evil and what is good; what should be +done and what should be left undone;--these behave the most wisely and make +the fewest mistakes? + +Erasistratus agreed to this. + +SOCRATES: Then the wisest and those who do best and the most fortunate and +the richest would appear to be all one and the same, if wisdom is really +the most valuable of our possessions? + +Yes, said Eryxias, interposing, but what use would it be if a man had the +wisdom of Nestor and wanted the necessaries of life, food and drink and +clothes and the like? Where would be the advantage of wisdom then? Or how +could he be the richest of men who might even have to go begging, because +he had not wherewithal to live? + +I thought that what Eryxias was saying had some weight, and I replied, +Would the wise man really suffer in this way, if he were so ill-provided; +whereas if he had the house of Polytion, and the house were full of gold +and silver, he would lack nothing? + +ERYXIAS: Yes; for then he might dispose of his property and obtain in +exchange what he needed, or he might sell it for money with which he could +supply his wants and in a moment procure abundance of everything. + +SOCRATES: True, if he could find some one who preferred such a house to +the wisdom of Nestor. But if there are persons who set great store by +wisdom like Nestor's and the advantages accruing from it, to sell these, if +he were so disposed, would be easier still. Or is a house a most useful +and necessary possession, and does it make a great difference in the +comfort of life to have a mansion like Polytion's instead of living in a +shabby little cottage, whereas wisdom is of small use and it is of no +importance whether a man is wise or ignorant about the highest matters? Or +is wisdom despised of men and can find no buyers, although cypress wood and +marble of Pentelicus are eagerly bought by numerous purchasers? Surely the +prudent pilot or the skilful physician, or the artist of any kind who is +proficient in his art, is more worth than the things which are especially +reckoned among riches; and he who can advise well and prudently for himself +and others is able also to sell the product of his art, if he so desire. + +Eryxias looked askance, as if he had received some unfair treatment, and +said, I believe, Socrates, that if you were forced to speak the truth, you +would declare that you were richer than Callias the son of Hipponicus. And +yet, although you claimed to be wiser about things of real importance, you +would not any the more be richer than he. + +I dare say, Eryxias, I said, that you may regard these arguments of ours as +a kind of game; you think that they have no relation to facts, but are like +the pieces in the game of draughts which the player can move in such a way +that his opponents are unable to make any countermove. (Compare Republic.) +And perhaps, too, as regards riches you are of opinion that while facts +remain the same, there are arguments, no matter whether true or false, +which enable the user of them to prove that the wisest and the richest are +one and the same, although he is in the wrong and his opponents are in the +right. There would be nothing strange in this; it would be as if two +persons were to dispute about letters, one declaring that the word Socrates +began with an S, the other that it began with an A, and the latter could +gain the victory over the former. + +Eryxias glanced at the audience, laughing and blushing at once, as if he +had had nothing to do with what had just been said, and replied,--No, +indeed, Socrates, I never supposed that our arguments should be of a kind +which would never convince any one of those here present or be of advantage +to them. For what man of sense could ever be persuaded that the wisest and +the richest are the same? The truth is that we are discussing the subject +of riches, and my notion is that we should argue respecting the honest and +dishonest means of acquiring them, and, generally, whether they are a good +thing or a bad. + +Very good, I said, and I am obliged to you for the hint: in future we will +be more careful. But why do not you yourself, as you introduced the +argument, and do not think that the former discussion touched the point at +issue, tell us whether you consider riches to be a good or an evil? + +I am of opinion, he said, that they are a good. He was about to add +something more, when Critias interrupted him:--Do you really suppose so, +Eryxias? + +Certainly, replied Eryxias; I should be mad if I did not: and I do not +fancy that you would find any one else of a contrary opinion. + +And I, retorted Critias, should say that there is no one whom I could not +compel to admit that riches are bad for some men. But surely, if they were +a good, they could not appear bad for any one? + +Here I interposed and said to them: If you two were having an argument +about equitation and what was the best way of riding, supposing that I knew +the art myself, I should try to bring you to an agreement. For I should be +ashamed if I were present and did not do what I could to prevent your +difference. And I should do the same if you were quarrelling about any +other art and were likely, unless you agreed on the point in dispute, to +part as enemies instead of as friends. But now, when we are contending +about a thing of which the usefulness continues during the whole of life, +and it makes an enormous difference whether we are to regard it as +beneficial or not,--a thing, too, which is esteemed of the highest +importance by the Hellenes:--(for parents, as soon as their children are, +as they think, come to years of discretion, urge them to consider how +wealth may be acquired, since by riches the value of a man is judged):-- +When, I say, we are thus in earnest, and you, who agree in other respects, +fall to disputing about a matter of such moment, that is, about wealth, and +not merely whether it is black or white, light or heavy, but whether it is +a good or an evil, whereby, although you are now the dearest of friends and +kinsmen, the most bitter hatred may arise betwixt you, I must hinder your +dissension to the best of my power. If I could, I would tell you the +truth, and so put an end to the dispute; but as I cannot do this, and each +of you supposes that you can bring the other to an agreement, I am +prepared, as far as my capacity admits, to help you in solving the +question. Please, therefore, Critias, try to make us accept the doctrines +which you yourself entertain. + +CRITIAS: I should like to follow up the argument, and will ask Eryxias +whether he thinks that there are just and unjust men? + +ERYXIAS: Most decidedly. + +CRITIAS: And does injustice seem to you an evil or a good? + +ERYXIAS: An evil. + +CRITIAS: Do you consider that he who bribes his neighbour's wife and +commits adultery with her, acts justly or unjustly, and this although both +the state and the laws forbid? + +ERYXIAS: Unjustly. + +CRITIAS: And if the wicked man has wealth and is willing to spend it, he +will carry out his evil purposes? whereas he who is short of means cannot +do what he fain would, and therefore does not sin? In such a case, surely, +it is better that a person should not be wealthy, if his poverty prevents +the accomplishment of his desires, and his desires are evil? Or, again, +should you call sickness a good or an evil? + +ERYXIAS: An evil. + +CRITIAS: Well, and do you think that some men are intemperate? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +CRITIAS: Then, if it is better for his health that the intemperate man +should refrain from meat and drink and other pleasant things, but he cannot +owing to his intemperance, will it not also be better that he should be too +poor to gratify his lust rather than that he should have a superabundance +of means? For thus he will not be able to sin, although he desire never so +much. + +Critias appeared to be arguing so admirably that Eryxias, if he had not +been ashamed of the bystanders, would probably have got up and struck him. +For he thought that he had been robbed of a great possession when it became +obvious to him that he had been wrong in his former opinion about wealth. +I observed his vexation, and feared that they would proceed to abuse and +quarrelling: so I said,--I heard that very argument used in the Lyceum +yesterday by a wise man, Prodicus of Ceos; but the audience thought that he +was talking mere nonsense, and no one could be persuaded that he was +speaking the truth. And when at last a certain talkative young gentleman +came in, and, taking his seat, began to laugh and jeer at Prodicus, +tormenting him and demanding an explanation of his argument, he gained the +ear of the audience far more than Prodicus. + +Can you repeat the discourse to us? Said Erasistratus. + +SOCRATES: If I can only remember it, I will. The youth began by asking +Prodicus, In what way did he think that riches were a good and in what an +evil? Prodicus answered, as you did just now, that they were a good to +good men and to those who knew in what way they should be employed, while +to the bad and the ignorant they were an evil. The same is true, he went +on to say, of all other things; men make them to be what they are +themselves. The saying of Archilochus is true:-- + +'Men's thoughts correspond to the things which they meet with.' + +Well, then, replied the youth, if any one makes me wise in that wisdom +whereby good men become wise, he must also make everything else good to me. +Not that he concerns himself at all with these other things, but he has +converted my ignorance into wisdom. If, for example, a person teach me +grammar or music, he will at the same time teach me all that relates to +grammar or music, and so when he makes me good, he makes things good to me. + +Prodicus did not altogether agree: still he consented to what was said. + +And do you think, said the youth, that doing good things is like building a +house,--the work of human agency; or do things remain what they were at +first, good or bad, for all time? + +Prodicus began to suspect, I fancy, the direction which the argument was +likely to take, and did not wish to be put down by a mere stripling before +all those present:--(if they two had been alone, he would not have +minded):--so he answered, cleverly enough: I think that doing good things +is a work of human agency. + +And is virtue in your opinion, Prodicus, innate or acquired by instruction? + +The latter, said Prodicus. + +Then you would consider him a simpleton who supposed that he could obtain +by praying to the Gods the knowledge of grammar or music or any other art, +which he must either learn from another or find out for himself? + +Prodicus agreed to this also. + +And when you pray to the Gods that you may do well and receive good, you +mean by your prayer nothing else than that you desire to become good and +wise:--if, at least, things are good to the good and wise and evil to the +evil. But in that case, if virtue is acquired by instruction, it would +appear that you only pray to be taught what you do not know. + +Hereupon I said to Prodicus that it was no misfortune to him if he had been +proved to be in error in supposing that the Gods immediately granted to us +whatever we asked:--if, I added, whenever you go up to the Acropolis you +earnestly entreat the Gods to grant you good things, although you know not +whether they can yield your request, it is as though you went to the doors +of the grammarian and begged him, although you had never made a study of +the art, to give you a knowledge of grammar which would enable you +forthwith to do the business of a grammarian. + +While I was speaking, Prodicus was preparing to retaliate upon his youthful +assailant, intending to employ the argument of which you have just made +use; for he was annoyed to have it supposed that he offered a vain prayer +to the Gods. But the master of the gymnasium came to him and begged him to +leave because he was teaching the youths doctrines which were unsuited to +them, and therefore bad for them. + +I have told you this because I want you to understand how men are +circumstanced in regard to philosophy. Had Prodicus been present and said +what you have said, the audience would have thought him raving, and he +would have been ejected from the gymnasium. But you have argued so +excellently well that you have not only persuaded your hearers, but have +brought your opponent to an agreement. For just as in the law courts, if +two witnesses testify to the same fact, one of whom seems to be an honest +fellow and the other a rogue, the testimony of the rogue often has the +contrary effect on the judges' minds to what he intended, while the same +evidence if given by the honest man at once strikes them as perfectly true. +And probably the audience have something of the same feeling about yourself +and Prodicus; they think him a Sophist and a braggart, and regard you as a +gentleman of courtesy and worth. For they do not pay attention to the +argument so much as to the character of the speaker. + +But truly, Socrates, said Erasistratus, though you may be joking, Critias +does seem to me to be saying something which is of weight. + +SOCRATES: I am in profound earnest, I assure you. But why, as you have +begun your argument so prettily, do you not go on with the rest? There is +still something lacking, now you have agreed that (wealth) is a good to +some and an evil to others. It remains to enquire what constitutes wealth; +for unless you know this, you cannot possibly come to an understanding as +to whether it is a good or an evil. I am ready to assist you in the +enquiry to the utmost of my power: but first let him who affirms that +riches are a good, tell us what, in his opinion, is wealth. + +ERASISTRATUS: Indeed, Socrates, I have no notion about wealth beyond that +which men commonly have. I suppose that wealth is a quantity of money +(compare Arist. Pol.); and this, I imagine, would also be Critias' +definition. + +SOCRATES: Then now we have to consider, What is money? Or else later on +we shall be found to differ about the question. For instance, the +Carthaginians use money of this sort. Something which is about the size of +a stater is tied up in a small piece of leather: what it is, no one knows +but the makers. A seal is next set upon the leather, which then passes +into circulation, and he who has the largest number of such pieces is +esteemed the richest and best off. And yet if any one among us had a mass +of such coins he would be no wealthier than if he had so many pebbles from +the mountain. At Lacedaemon, again, they use iron by weight which has been +rendered useless: and he who has the greatest mass of such iron is thought +to be the richest, although elsewhere it has no value. In Ethiopia +engraved stones are employed, of which a Lacedaemonian could make no use. +Once more, among the Nomad Scythians a man who owned the house of Polytion +would not be thought richer than one who possessed Mount Lycabettus among +ourselves. And clearly those things cannot all be regarded as possessions; +for in some cases the possessors would appear none the richer thereby: +but, as I was saying, some one of them is thought in one place to be money, +and the possessors of it are the wealthy, whereas in some other place it is +not money, and the ownership of it does not confer wealth; just as the +standard of morals varies, and what is honourable to some men is +dishonourable to others. And if we wish to enquire why a house is valuable +to us but not to the Scythians, or why the Carthaginians value leather +which is worthless to us, or the Lacedaemonians find wealth in iron and we +do not, can we not get an answer in some such way as this: Would an +Athenian, who had a thousand talents weight of the stones which lie about +in the Agora and which we do not employ for any purpose, be thought to be +any the richer? + +ERASISTRATUS: He certainly would not appear so to me. + +SOCRATES: But if he possessed a thousand talents weight of some precious +stone, we should say that he was very rich? + +ERASISTRATUS: Of course. + +SOCRATES: The reason is that the one is useless and the other useful? + +ERASISTRATUS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And in the same way among the Scythians a house has no value +because they have no use for a house, nor would a Scythian set so much +store on the finest house in the world as on a leather coat, because he +could use the one and not the other. Or again, the Carthaginian coinage is +not wealth in our eyes, for we could not employ it, as we can silver, to +procure what we need, and therefore it is of no use to us. + +ERASISTRATUS: True. + +SOCRATES: What is useful to us, then, is wealth, and what is useless to us +is not wealth? + +But how do you mean, Socrates? said Eryxias, interrupting. Do we not +employ in our intercourse with one another speech and violence (?) and +various other things? These are useful and yet they are not wealth. + +SOCRATES: Clearly we have not yet answered the question, What is wealth? +That wealth must be useful, to be wealth at all,--thus much is acknowledged +by every one. But what particular thing is wealth, if not all things? Let +us pursue the argument in another way; and then we may perhaps find what we +are seeking. What is the use of wealth, and for what purpose has the +possession of riches been invented,--in the sense, I mean, in which drugs +have been discovered for the cure of disease? Perhaps in this way we may +throw some light on the question. It appears to be clear that whatever +constitutes wealth must be useful, and that wealth is one class of useful +things; and now we have to enquire, What is the use of those useful things +which constitute wealth? For all things probably may be said to be useful +which we use in production, just as all things which have life are animals, +but there is a special kind of animal which we call 'man.' Now if any one +were to ask us, What is that of which, if we were rid, we should not want +medicine and the instruments of medicine, we might reply that this would be +the case if disease were absent from our bodies and either never came to +them at all or went away again as soon as it appeared; and we may therefore +conclude that medicine is the science which is useful for getting rid of +disease. But if we are further asked, What is that from which, if we were +free, we should have no need of wealth? can we give an answer? If we have +none, suppose that we restate the question thus:--If a man could live +without food or drink, and yet suffer neither hunger nor thirst, would he +want either money or anything else in order to supply his needs? + +ERYXIAS: He would not. + +SOCRATES: And does not this apply in other cases? If we did not want for +the service of the body the things of which we now stand in need, and heat +and cold and the other bodily sensations were unperceived by us, there +would be no use in this so-called wealth, if no one, that is, had any +necessity for those things which now make us wish for wealth in order that +we may satisfy the desires and needs of the body in respect of our various +wants. And therefore if the possession of wealth is useful in ministering +to our bodily wants, and bodily wants were unknown to us, we should not +need wealth, and possibly there would be no such thing as wealth. + +ERYXIAS: Clearly not. + +SOCRATES: Then our conclusion is, as would appear, that wealth is what is +useful to this end? + +Eryxias once more gave his assent, but the small argument considerably +troubled him. + +SOCRATES: And what is your opinion about another question:--Would you say +that the same thing can be at one time useful and at another useless for +the production of the same result? + +ERYXIAS: I cannot say more than that if we require the same thing to +produce the same result, then it seems to me to be useful; if not, not. + +SOCRATES: Then if without the aid of fire we could make a brazen statue, +we should not want fire for that purpose; and if we did not want it, it +would be useless to us? And the argument applies equally in other cases. + +ERYXIAS: Clearly. + +SOCRATES: And therefore conditions which are not required for the +existence of a thing are not useful for the production of it? + +ERYXIAS: Of course not. + +SOCRATES: And if without gold or silver or anything else which we do not +use directly for the body in the way that we do food and drink and bedding +and houses,--if without these we could satisfy the wants of the body, they +would be of no use to us for that purpose? + +ERYXIAS: They would not. + +SOCRATES: They would no longer be regarded as wealth, because they are +useless, whereas that would be wealth which enabled us to obtain what was +useful to us? + +ERYXIAS: O Socrates, you will never be able to persuade me that gold and +silver and similar things are not wealth. But I am very strongly of +opinion that things which are useless to us are not wealth, and that the +money which is useful for this purpose is of the greatest use; not that +these things are not useful towards life, if by them we can procure wealth. + +SOCRATES: And how would you answer another question? There are persons, +are there not, who teach music and grammar and other arts for pay, and thus +procure those things of which they stand in need? + +ERYXIAS: There are. + +SOCRATES: And these men by the arts which they profess, and in exchange +for them, obtain the necessities of life just as we do by means of gold and +silver? + +ERYXIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: Then if they procure by this means what they want for the +purposes of life, that art will be useful towards life? For do we not say +that silver is useful because it enables us to supply our bodily needs? + +ERYXIAS: We do. + +SOCRATES: Then if these arts are reckoned among things useful, the arts +are wealth for the same reason as gold and silver are, for, clearly, the +possession of them gives wealth. Yet a little while ago we found it +difficult to accept the argument which proved that the wisest are the +wealthiest. But now there seems no escape from this conclusion. Suppose +that we are asked, 'Is a horse useful to everybody?' will not our reply be, +'No, but only to those who know how to use a horse?' + +ERYXIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And so, too, physic is not useful to every one, but only to him +who knows how to use it? + +ERYXIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And the same is the case with everything else? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: Then gold and silver and all the other elements which are +supposed to make up wealth are only useful to the person who knows how to +use them? + +ERYXIAS: Exactly. + +SOCRATES: And were we not saying before that it was the business of a good +man and a gentleman to know where and how anything should be used? + +ERYXIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: The good and gentle, therefore will alone have profit from these +things, supposing at least that they know how to use them. But if so, to +them only will they seem to be wealth. It appears, however, that where a +person is ignorant of riding, and has horses which are useless to him, if +some one teaches him that art, he makes him also richer, for what was +before useless has now become useful to him, and in giving him knowledge he +has also conferred riches upon him. + +ERYXIAS: That is the case. + +SOCRATES: Yet I dare be sworn that Critias will not be moved a whit by the +argument. + +CRITIAS: No, by heaven, I should be a madman if I were. But why do you +not finish the argument which proves that gold and silver and other things +which seem to be wealth are not real wealth? For I have been exceedingly +delighted to hear the discourses which you have just been holding. + +SOCRATES: My argument, Critias (I said), appears to have given you the +same kind of pleasure which you might have derived from some rhapsode's +recitation of Homer; for you do not believe a word of what has been said. +But come now, give me an answer to this question. Are not certain things +useful to the builder when he is building a house? + +CRITIAS: They are. + +SOCRATES: And would you say that those things are useful which are +employed in house building,--stones and bricks and beams and the like, and +also the instruments with which the builder built the house, the beams and +stones which they provided, and again the instruments by which these were +obtained? + +CRITIAS: It seems to me that they are all useful for building. + +SOCRATES: And is it not true of every art, that not only the materials but +the instruments by which we procure them and without which the work could +not go on, are useful for that art? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: And further, the instruments by which the instruments are +procured, and so on, going back from stage to stage ad infinitum,--are not +all these, in your opinion, necessary in order to carry out the work? + +CRITIAS: We may fairly suppose such to be the case. + +SOCRATES: And if a man has food and drink and clothes and the other things +which are useful to the body, would he need gold or silver or any other +means by which he could procure that which he now has? + +CRITIAS: I do not think so. + +SOCRATES: Then you consider that a man never wants any of these things for +the use of the body? + +CRITIAS: Certainly not. + +SOCRATES: And if they appear useless to this end, ought they not always to +appear useless? For we have already laid down the principle that things +cannot be at one time useful and at another time not, in the same process. + +CRITIAS: But in that respect your argument and mine are the same. For you +maintain if they are useful to a certain end, they can never become +useless; whereas I say that in order to accomplish some results bad things +are needed, and good for others. + +SOCRATES: But can a bad thing be used to carry out a good purpose? + +CRITIAS: I should say not. + +SOCRATES: And we call those actions good which a man does for the sake of +virtue? + +CRITIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: But can a man learn any kind of knowledge which is imparted by +word of mouth if he is wholly deprived of the sense of hearing? + +CRITIAS: Certainly not, I think. + +SOCRATES: And will not hearing be useful for virtue, if virtue is taught +by hearing and we use the sense of hearing in giving instruction? + +CRITIAS: Yes. + +SOCRATES: And since medicine frees the sick man from his disease, that art +too may sometimes appear useful in the acquisition of virtue, e.g. when +hearing is procured by the aid of medicine. + +CRITIAS: Very likely. + +SOCRATES: But if, again, we obtain by wealth the aid of medicine, shall we +not regard wealth as useful for virtue? + +CRITIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And also the instruments by which wealth is procured? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: Then you think that a man may gain wealth by bad and disgraceful +means, and, having obtained the aid of medicine which enables him to +acquire the power of hearing, may use that very faculty for the acquisition +of virtue? + +CRITIAS: Yes, I do. + +SOCRATES: But can that which is evil be useful for virtue? + +CRITIAS: No. + +SOCRATES: It is not therefore necessary that the means by which we obtain +what is useful for a certain object should always be useful for the same +object: for it seems that bad actions may sometimes serve good purposes? +The matter will be still plainer if we look at it in this way:--If things +are useful towards the several ends for which they exist, which ends would +not come into existence without them, how would you regard them? Can +ignorance, for instance, be useful for knowledge, or disease for health, or +vice for virtue? + +CRITIAS: Never. + +SOCRATES: And yet we have already agreed--have we not?--that there can be +no knowledge where there has not previously been ignorance, nor health +where there has not been disease, nor virtue where there has not been vice? + +CRITIAS: I think that we have. + +SOCRATES: But then it would seem that the antecedents without which a +thing cannot exist are not necessarily useful to it. Otherwise ignorance +would appear useful for knowledge, disease for health, and vice for virtue. + +Critias still showed great reluctance to accept any argument which went to +prove that all these things were useless. I saw that it was as difficult +to persuade him as (according to the proverb) it is to boil a stone, so I +said: Let us bid 'good-bye' to the discussion, since we cannot agree +whether these things are useful and a part of wealth or not. But what +shall we say to another question: Which is the happier and better man,--he +who requires the greatest quantity of necessaries for body and diet, or he +who requires only the fewest and least? The answer will perhaps become +more obvious if we suppose some one, comparing the man himself at different +times, to consider whether his condition is better when he is sick or when +he is well? + +CRITIAS: That is not a question which needs much consideration. + +SOCRATES: Probably, I said, every one can understand that health is a +better condition than disease. But when have we the greatest and the most +various needs, when we are sick or when we are well? + +CRITIAS: When we are sick. + +SOCRATES: And when we are in the worst state we have the greatest and most +especial need and desire of bodily pleasures? + +CRITIAS: True. + +SOCRATES: And seeing that a man is best off when he is least in need of +such things, does not the same reasoning apply to the case of any two +persons, of whom one has many and great wants and desires, and the other +few and moderate? For instance, some men are gamblers, some drunkards, and +some gluttons: and gambling and the love of drink and greediness are all +desires? + +CRITIAS: Certainly. + +SOCRATES: But desires are only the lack of something: and those who have +the greatest desires are in a worse condition than those who have none or +very slight ones? + +CRITIAS: Certainly I consider that those who have such wants are bad, and +that the greater their wants the worse they are. + +SOCRATES: And do we think it possible that a thing should be useful for a +purpose unless we have need of it for that purpose? + +CRITIAS: No. + +SOCRATES: Then if these things are useful for supplying the needs of the +body, we must want them for that purpose? + +CRITIAS: That is my opinion. + +SOCRATES: And he to whom the greatest number of things are useful for his +purpose, will also want the greatest number of means of accomplishing it, +supposing that we necessarily feel the want of all useful things? + +CRITIAS: It seems so. + +SOCRATES: The argument proves then that he who has great riches has +likewise need of many things for the supply of the wants of the body; for +wealth appears useful towards that end. And the richest must be in the +worst condition, since they seem to be most in want of such things. + + + + + +End of this Project Gutenberg Etext of Eryxias, by a Platonic Imitator + diff --git a/old/ryxis10.zip b/old/ryxis10.zip Binary files differnew file mode 100644 index 0000000..aef3a0b --- /dev/null +++ b/old/ryxis10.zip |