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+The Project Gutenberg EBook of Eryxias, by An Imitator of Plato
+
+This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with
+almost no restrictions whatsoever.  You may copy it, give it away or
+re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included
+with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org
+
+
+Title: Eryxias
+
+Author: An Imitator of Plato
+
+Translator: Benjamin Jowett
+
+Posting Date: November 6, 2008 [EBook #1681]
+Release Date: March, 1999
+
+Language: English
+
+Character set encoding: ASCII
+
+*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK ERYXIAS ***
+
+
+
+
+Produced by Sue Asscher
+
+
+
+
+
+ERYXIAS
+
+By a Platonic Imitator (see Appendix II)
+
+
+
+Translated by Benjamin Jowett
+
+
+
+
+APPENDIX II.
+
+The two dialogues which are translated in the second appendix are not
+mentioned by Aristotle, or by any early authority, and have no claim
+to be ascribed to Plato. They are examples of Platonic dialogues to be
+assigned probably to the second or third generation after Plato, when
+his writings were well known at Athens and Alexandria. They exhibit
+considerable originality, and are remarkable for containing several
+thoughts of the sort which we suppose to be modern rather than ancient,
+and which therefore have a peculiar interest for us. The Second
+Alcibiades shows that the difficulties about prayer which have perplexed
+Christian theologians were not unknown among the followers of Plato.
+The Eryxias was doubted by the ancients themselves: yet it may claim the
+distinction of being, among all Greek or Roman writings, the one which
+anticipates in the most striking manner the modern science of political
+economy and gives an abstract form to some of its principal doctrines.
+
+For the translation of these two dialogues I am indebted to my friend
+and secretary, Mr. Knight.
+
+That the Dialogue which goes by the name of the Second Alcibiades is a
+genuine writing of Plato will not be maintained by any modern critic,
+and was hardly believed by the ancients themselves. The dialectic is
+poor and weak. There is no power over language, or beauty of style; and
+there is a certain abruptness and agroikia in the conversation, which
+is very un-Platonic. The best passage is probably that about the
+poets:--the remark that the poet, who is of a reserved disposition, is
+uncommonly difficult to understand, and the ridiculous interpretation of
+Homer, are entirely in the spirit of Plato (compare Protag; Ion; Apol.).
+The characters are ill-drawn. Socrates assumes the 'superior person' and
+preaches too much, while Alcibiades is stupid and heavy-in-hand. There
+are traces of Stoic influence in the general tone and phraseology of the
+Dialogue (compare opos melesei tis...kaka: oti pas aphron mainetai):
+and the writer seems to have been acquainted with the 'Laws' of Plato
+(compare Laws). An incident from the Symposium is rather clumsily
+introduced, and two somewhat hackneyed quotations (Symp., Gorg.) recur.
+The reference to the death of Archelaus as having occurred 'quite
+lately' is only a fiction, probably suggested by the Gorgias, where the
+story of Archelaus is told, and a similar phrase occurs;--ta gar echthes
+kai proen gegonota tauta, k.t.l. There are several passages which
+are either corrupt or extremely ill-expressed. But there is a modern
+interest in the subject of the dialogue; and it is a good example of
+a short spurious work, which may be attributed to the second or third
+century before Christ.
+
+
+
+
+INTRODUCTION.
+
+Much cannot be said in praise of the style or conception of the Eryxias.
+It is frequently obscure; like the exercise of a student, it is full
+of small imitations of Plato:--Phaeax returning from an expedition to
+Sicily (compare Socrates in the Charmides from the army at Potidaea),
+the figure of the game at draughts, borrowed from the Republic, etc. It
+has also in many passages the ring of sophistry. On the other hand, the
+rather unhandsome treatment which is exhibited towards Prodicus is quite
+unlike the urbanity of Plato.
+
+Yet there are some points in the argument which are deserving of
+attention. (1) That wealth depends upon the need of it or demand for
+it, is the first anticipation in an abstract form of one of the great
+principles of modern political economy, and the nearest approach to it
+to be found in an ancient writer. (2) The resolution of wealth into
+its simplest implements going on to infinity is a subtle and refined
+thought. (3) That wealth is relative to circumstances is a sound
+conception. (4) That the arts and sciences which receive payment are
+likewise to be comprehended under the notion of wealth, also touches a
+question of modern political economy. (5) The distinction of post hoc
+and propter hoc, often lost sight of in modern as well as in ancient
+times. These metaphysical conceptions and distinctions show considerable
+power of thought in the writer, whatever we may think of his merits as
+an imitator of Plato.
+
+
+
+
+ERYXIAS
+
+
+PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Eryxias, Erasistratus, Critias.
+
+SCENE: The portico of a temple of Zeus.
+
+
+It happened by chance that Eryxias the Steirian was walking with me in
+the Portico of Zeus the Deliverer, when there came up to us Critias
+and Erasistratus, the latter the son of Phaeax, who was the nephew of
+Erasistratus. Now Erasistratus had just arrived from Sicily and that
+part of the world. As they approached, he said, Hail, Socrates!
+
+SOCRATES: The same to you, I said; have you any good news from Sicily to
+tell us?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: Most excellent. But, if you please, let us first sit down;
+for I am tired with my yesterday's journey from Megara.
+
+SOCRATES: Gladly, if that is your desire.
+
+ERASISTRATUS: What would you wish to hear first? he said. What the
+Sicilians are doing, or how they are disposed towards our city? To my
+mind, they are very like wasps: so long as you only cause them a little
+annoyance they are quite unmanageable; you must destroy their nests
+if you wish to get the better of them. And in a similar way, the
+Syracusans, unless we set to work in earnest, and go against them with
+a great expedition, will never submit to our rule. The petty injuries
+which we at present inflict merely irritate them enough to make them
+utterly intractable. And now they have sent ambassadors to Athens, and
+intend, I suspect, to play us some trick.--While we were talking, the
+Syracusan envoys chanced to go by, and Erasistratus, pointing to one of
+them, said to me, That, Socrates, is the richest man in all Italy and
+Sicily. For who has larger estates or more land at his disposal to
+cultivate if he please? And they are of a quality, too, finer than any
+other land in Hellas. Moreover, he has all the things which go to make
+up wealth, slaves and horses innumerable, gold and silver without end.
+
+I saw that he was inclined to expatiate on the riches of the man; so I
+asked him, Well, Erasistratus, and what sort of character does he bear
+in Sicily?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: He is esteemed to be, and really is, the wickedest of
+all the Sicilians and Italians, and even more wicked than he is rich;
+indeed, if you were to ask any Sicilian whom he thought to be the worst
+and the richest of mankind, you would never hear any one else named.
+
+I reflected that we were speaking, not of trivial matters, but about
+wealth and virtue, which are deemed to be of the greatest moment, and
+I asked Erasistratus whom he considered the wealthier,--he who was the
+possessor of a talent of silver or he who had a field worth two talents?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: The owner of the field.
+
+SOCRATES: And on the same principle he who had robes and bedding and
+such things which are of greater value to him than to a stranger would
+be richer than the stranger?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: True.
+
+SOCRATES: And if any one gave you a choice, which of these would you
+prefer?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: That which was most valuable.
+
+SOCRATES: In which way do you think you would be the richer?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: By choosing as I said.
+
+SOCRATES: And he appears to you to be the richest who has goods of the
+greatest value?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: He does.
+
+SOCRATES: And are not the healthy richer than the sick, since health is
+a possession more valuable than riches to the sick? Surely there is no
+one who would not prefer to be poor and well, rather than to have all
+the King of Persia's wealth and to be ill. And this proves that men set
+health above wealth, else they would never choose the one in preference
+to the other.
+
+ERASISTRATUS: True.
+
+SOCRATES: And if anything appeared to be more valuable than health, he
+would be the richest who possessed it?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: He would.
+
+SOCRATES: Suppose that some one came to us at this moment and were to
+ask, Well, Socrates and Eryxias and Erasistratus, can you tell me what
+is of the greatest value to men? Is it not that of which the possession
+will best enable a man to advise how his own and his friend's affairs
+should be administered?--What will be our reply?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: I should say, Socrates, that happiness was the most
+precious of human possessions.
+
+SOCRATES: Not a bad answer. But do we not deem those men who are most
+prosperous to be the happiest?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: That is my opinion.
+
+SOCRATES: And are they not most prosperous who commit the fewest errors
+in respect either of themselves or of other men?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: And they who know what is evil and what is good; what should
+be done and what should be left undone;--these behave the most wisely
+and make the fewest mistakes?
+
+Erasistratus agreed to this.
+
+SOCRATES: Then the wisest and those who do best and the most fortunate
+and the richest would appear to be all one and the same, if wisdom is
+really the most valuable of our possessions?
+
+Yes, said Eryxias, interposing, but what use would it be if a man had
+the wisdom of Nestor and wanted the necessaries of life, food and drink
+and clothes and the like? Where would be the advantage of wisdom then?
+Or how could he be the richest of men who might even have to go begging,
+because he had not wherewithal to live?
+
+I thought that what Eryxias was saying had some weight, and I
+replied, Would the wise man really suffer in this way, if he were so
+ill-provided; whereas if he had the house of Polytion, and the house
+were full of gold and silver, he would lack nothing?
+
+ERYXIAS: Yes; for then he might dispose of his property and obtain in
+exchange what he needed, or he might sell it for money with which he
+could supply his wants and in a moment procure abundance of everything.
+
+SOCRATES: True, if he could find some one who preferred such a house to
+the wisdom of Nestor. But if there are persons who set great store by
+wisdom like Nestor's and the advantages accruing from it, to sell these,
+if he were so disposed, would be easier still. Or is a house a most
+useful and necessary possession, and does it make a great difference in
+the comfort of life to have a mansion like Polytion's instead of living
+in a shabby little cottage, whereas wisdom is of small use and it is
+of no importance whether a man is wise or ignorant about the highest
+matters? Or is wisdom despised of men and can find no buyers, although
+cypress wood and marble of Pentelicus are eagerly bought by numerous
+purchasers? Surely the prudent pilot or the skilful physician, or the
+artist of any kind who is proficient in his art, is more worth than the
+things which are especially reckoned among riches; and he who can advise
+well and prudently for himself and others is able also to sell the
+product of his art, if he so desire.
+
+Eryxias looked askance, as if he had received some unfair treatment, and
+said, I believe, Socrates, that if you were forced to speak the
+truth, you would declare that you were richer than Callias the son of
+Hipponicus. And yet, although you claimed to be wiser about things of
+real importance, you would not any the more be richer than he.
+
+I dare say, Eryxias, I said, that you may regard these arguments of ours
+as a kind of game; you think that they have no relation to facts, but
+are like the pieces in the game of draughts which the player can move
+in such a way that his opponents are unable to make any countermove.
+(Compare Republic.) And perhaps, too, as regards riches you are of
+opinion that while facts remain the same, there are arguments, no matter
+whether true or false, which enable the user of them to prove that the
+wisest and the richest are one and the same, although he is in the wrong
+and his opponents are in the right. There would be nothing strange in
+this; it would be as if two persons were to dispute about letters, one
+declaring that the word Socrates began with an S, the other that it
+began with an A, and the latter could gain the victory over the former.
+
+Eryxias glanced at the audience, laughing and blushing at once, as if
+he had had nothing to do with what had just been said, and replied,--No,
+indeed, Socrates, I never supposed that our arguments should be of a
+kind which would never convince any one of those here present or be of
+advantage to them. For what man of sense could ever be persuaded that
+the wisest and the richest are the same? The truth is that we are
+discussing the subject of riches, and my notion is that we should
+argue respecting the honest and dishonest means of acquiring them, and,
+generally, whether they are a good thing or a bad.
+
+Very good, I said, and I am obliged to you for the hint: in future we
+will be more careful. But why do not you yourself, as you introduced the
+argument, and do not think that the former discussion touched the point
+at issue, tell us whether you consider riches to be a good or an evil?
+
+I am of opinion, he said, that they are a good. He was about to add
+something more, when Critias interrupted him:--Do you really suppose so,
+Eryxias?
+
+Certainly, replied Eryxias; I should be mad if I did not: and I do not
+fancy that you would find any one else of a contrary opinion.
+
+And I, retorted Critias, should say that there is no one whom I could
+not compel to admit that riches are bad for some men. But surely, if
+they were a good, they could not appear bad for any one?
+
+Here I interposed and said to them: If you two were having an argument
+about equitation and what was the best way of riding, supposing that I
+knew the art myself, I should try to bring you to an agreement. For
+I should be ashamed if I were present and did not do what I could
+to prevent your difference. And I should do the same if you were
+quarrelling about any other art and were likely, unless you agreed on
+the point in dispute, to part as enemies instead of as friends. But now,
+when we are contending about a thing of which the usefulness continues
+during the whole of life, and it makes an enormous difference whether we
+are to regard it as beneficial or not,--a thing, too, which is esteemed
+of the highest importance by the Hellenes:--(for parents, as soon as
+their children are, as they think, come to years of discretion, urge
+them to consider how wealth may be acquired, since by riches the value
+of a man is judged):--When, I say, we are thus in earnest, and you,
+who agree in other respects, fall to disputing about a matter of such
+moment, that is, about wealth, and not merely whether it is black or
+white, light or heavy, but whether it is a good or an evil, whereby,
+although you are now the dearest of friends and kinsmen, the most bitter
+hatred may arise betwixt you, I must hinder your dissension to the best
+of my power. If I could, I would tell you the truth, and so put an end
+to the dispute; but as I cannot do this, and each of you supposes that
+you can bring the other to an agreement, I am prepared, as far as my
+capacity admits, to help you in solving the question. Please, therefore,
+Critias, try to make us accept the doctrines which you yourself
+entertain.
+
+CRITIAS: I should like to follow up the argument, and will ask Eryxias
+whether he thinks that there are just and unjust men?
+
+ERYXIAS: Most decidedly.
+
+CRITIAS: And does injustice seem to you an evil or a good?
+
+ERYXIAS: An evil.
+
+CRITIAS: Do you consider that he who bribes his neighbour's wife and
+commits adultery with her, acts justly or unjustly, and this although
+both the state and the laws forbid?
+
+ERYXIAS: Unjustly.
+
+CRITIAS: And if the wicked man has wealth and is willing to spend it,
+he will carry out his evil purposes? whereas he who is short of means
+cannot do what he fain would, and therefore does not sin? In such a
+case, surely, it is better that a person should not be wealthy, if his
+poverty prevents the accomplishment of his desires, and his desires are
+evil? Or, again, should you call sickness a good or an evil?
+
+ERYXIAS: An evil.
+
+CRITIAS: Well, and do you think that some men are intemperate?
+
+ERYXIAS: Yes.
+
+CRITIAS: Then, if it is better for his health that the intemperate man
+should refrain from meat and drink and other pleasant things, but he
+cannot owing to his intemperance, will it not also be better that he
+should be too poor to gratify his lust rather than that he should have
+a superabundance of means? For thus he will not be able to sin, although
+he desire never so much.
+
+Critias appeared to be arguing so admirably that Eryxias, if he had not
+been ashamed of the bystanders, would probably have got up and struck
+him. For he thought that he had been robbed of a great possession when
+it became obvious to him that he had been wrong in his former opinion
+about wealth. I observed his vexation, and feared that they would
+proceed to abuse and quarrelling: so I said,--I heard that very argument
+used in the Lyceum yesterday by a wise man, Prodicus of Ceos; but the
+audience thought that he was talking mere nonsense, and no one could
+be persuaded that he was speaking the truth. And when at last a certain
+talkative young gentleman came in, and, taking his seat, began to laugh
+and jeer at Prodicus, tormenting him and demanding an explanation of his
+argument, he gained the ear of the audience far more than Prodicus.
+
+Can you repeat the discourse to us? Said Erasistratus.
+
+SOCRATES: If I can only remember it, I will. The youth began by asking
+Prodicus, In what way did he think that riches were a good and in what
+an evil? Prodicus answered, as you did just now, that they were a good
+to good men and to those who knew in what way they should be employed,
+while to the bad and the ignorant they were an evil. The same is true,
+he went on to say, of all other things; men make them to be what they
+are themselves. The saying of Archilochus is true:--
+
+'Men's thoughts correspond to the things which they meet with.'
+
+Well, then, replied the youth, if any one makes me wise in that wisdom
+whereby good men become wise, he must also make everything else good to
+me. Not that he concerns himself at all with these other things, but he
+has converted my ignorance into wisdom. If, for example, a person teach
+me grammar or music, he will at the same time teach me all that relates
+to grammar or music, and so when he makes me good, he makes things good
+to me.
+
+Prodicus did not altogether agree: still he consented to what was said.
+
+And do you think, said the youth, that doing good things is like
+building a house,--the work of human agency; or do things remain what
+they were at first, good or bad, for all time?
+
+Prodicus began to suspect, I fancy, the direction which the argument
+was likely to take, and did not wish to be put down by a mere stripling
+before all those present:--(if they two had been alone, he would not
+have minded):--so he answered, cleverly enough: I think that doing good
+things is a work of human agency.
+
+And is virtue in your opinion, Prodicus, innate or acquired by
+instruction?
+
+The latter, said Prodicus.
+
+Then you would consider him a simpleton who supposed that he could
+obtain by praying to the Gods the knowledge of grammar or music or
+any other art, which he must either learn from another or find out for
+himself?
+
+Prodicus agreed to this also.
+
+And when you pray to the Gods that you may do well and receive good, you
+mean by your prayer nothing else than that you desire to become good and
+wise:--if, at least, things are good to the good and wise and evil to
+the evil. But in that case, if virtue is acquired by instruction, it
+would appear that you only pray to be taught what you do not know.
+
+Hereupon I said to Prodicus that it was no misfortune to him if he
+had been proved to be in error in supposing that the Gods immediately
+granted to us whatever we asked:--if, I added, whenever you go up to
+the Acropolis you earnestly entreat the Gods to grant you good things,
+although you know not whether they can yield your request, it is as
+though you went to the doors of the grammarian and begged him, although
+you had never made a study of the art, to give you a knowledge of
+grammar which would enable you forthwith to do the business of a
+grammarian.
+
+While I was speaking, Prodicus was preparing to retaliate upon his
+youthful assailant, intending to employ the argument of which you have
+just made use; for he was annoyed to have it supposed that he offered a
+vain prayer to the Gods. But the master of the gymnasium came to him and
+begged him to leave because he was teaching the youths doctrines which
+were unsuited to them, and therefore bad for them.
+
+I have told you this because I want you to understand how men are
+circumstanced in regard to philosophy. Had Prodicus been present and
+said what you have said, the audience would have thought him raving, and
+he would have been ejected from the gymnasium. But you have argued so
+excellently well that you have not only persuaded your hearers, but have
+brought your opponent to an agreement. For just as in the law courts,
+if two witnesses testify to the same fact, one of whom seems to be an
+honest fellow and the other a rogue, the testimony of the rogue often
+has the contrary effect on the judges' minds to what he intended, while
+the same evidence if given by the honest man at once strikes them as
+perfectly true. And probably the audience have something of the same
+feeling about yourself and Prodicus; they think him a Sophist and a
+braggart, and regard you as a gentleman of courtesy and worth. For they
+do not pay attention to the argument so much as to the character of the
+speaker.
+
+But truly, Socrates, said Erasistratus, though you may be joking,
+Critias does seem to me to be saying something which is of weight.
+
+SOCRATES: I am in profound earnest, I assure you. But why, as you have
+begun your argument so prettily, do you not go on with the rest? There
+is still something lacking, now you have agreed that (wealth) is a good
+to some and an evil to others. It remains to enquire what constitutes
+wealth; for unless you know this, you cannot possibly come to an
+understanding as to whether it is a good or an evil. I am ready to
+assist you in the enquiry to the utmost of my power: but first let him
+who affirms that riches are a good, tell us what, in his opinion, is
+wealth.
+
+ERASISTRATUS: Indeed, Socrates, I have no notion about wealth beyond
+that which men commonly have. I suppose that wealth is a quantity of
+money (compare Arist. Pol.); and this, I imagine, would also be Critias'
+definition.
+
+SOCRATES: Then now we have to consider, What is money? Or else later
+on we shall be found to differ about the question. For instance, the
+Carthaginians use money of this sort. Something which is about the size
+of a stater is tied up in a small piece of leather: what it is, no one
+knows but the makers. A seal is next set upon the leather, which then
+passes into circulation, and he who has the largest number of such
+pieces is esteemed the richest and best off. And yet if any one among us
+had a mass of such coins he would be no wealthier than if he had so many
+pebbles from the mountain. At Lacedaemon, again, they use iron by weight
+which has been rendered useless: and he who has the greatest mass of
+such iron is thought to be the richest, although elsewhere it has
+no value. In Ethiopia engraved stones are employed, of which a
+Lacedaemonian could make no use. Once more, among the Nomad Scythians a
+man who owned the house of Polytion would not be thought richer than one
+who possessed Mount Lycabettus among ourselves. And clearly those things
+cannot all be regarded as possessions; for in some cases the possessors
+would appear none the richer thereby: but, as I was saying, some one of
+them is thought in one place to be money, and the possessors of it
+are the wealthy, whereas in some other place it is not money, and the
+ownership of it does not confer wealth; just as the standard of morals
+varies, and what is honourable to some men is dishonourable to others.
+And if we wish to enquire why a house is valuable to us but not to the
+Scythians, or why the Carthaginians value leather which is worthless to
+us, or the Lacedaemonians find wealth in iron and we do not, can we not
+get an answer in some such way as this: Would an Athenian, who had a
+thousand talents weight of the stones which lie about in the Agora and
+which we do not employ for any purpose, be thought to be any the richer?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: He certainly would not appear so to me.
+
+SOCRATES: But if he possessed a thousand talents weight of some precious
+stone, we should say that he was very rich?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: Of course.
+
+SOCRATES: The reason is that the one is useless and the other useful?
+
+ERASISTRATUS: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And in the same way among the Scythians a house has no value
+because they have no use for a house, nor would a Scythian set so much
+store on the finest house in the world as on a leather coat, because he
+could use the one and not the other. Or again, the Carthaginian coinage
+is not wealth in our eyes, for we could not employ it, as we can silver,
+to procure what we need, and therefore it is of no use to us.
+
+ERASISTRATUS: True.
+
+SOCRATES: What is useful to us, then, is wealth, and what is useless to
+us is not wealth?
+
+But how do you mean, Socrates? said Eryxias, interrupting. Do we not
+employ in our intercourse with one another speech and violence (?) and
+various other things? These are useful and yet they are not wealth.
+
+SOCRATES: Clearly we have not yet answered the question, What is
+wealth? That wealth must be useful, to be wealth at all,--thus much is
+acknowledged by every one. But what particular thing is wealth, if not
+all things? Let us pursue the argument in another way; and then we may
+perhaps find what we are seeking. What is the use of wealth, and for
+what purpose has the possession of riches been invented,--in the sense,
+I mean, in which drugs have been discovered for the cure of disease?
+Perhaps in this way we may throw some light on the question. It appears
+to be clear that whatever constitutes wealth must be useful, and that
+wealth is one class of useful things; and now we have to enquire, What
+is the use of those useful things which constitute wealth? For all
+things probably may be said to be useful which we use in production,
+just as all things which have life are animals, but there is a special
+kind of animal which we call 'man.' Now if any one were to ask us, What
+is that of which, if we were rid, we should not want medicine and the
+instruments of medicine, we might reply that this would be the case if
+disease were absent from our bodies and either never came to them at all
+or went away again as soon as it appeared; and we may therefore conclude
+that medicine is the science which is useful for getting rid of disease.
+But if we are further asked, What is that from which, if we were free,
+we should have no need of wealth? can we give an answer? If we have
+none, suppose that we restate the question thus:--If a man could live
+without food or drink, and yet suffer neither hunger nor thirst, would
+he want either money or anything else in order to supply his needs?
+
+ERYXIAS: He would not.
+
+SOCRATES: And does not this apply in other cases? If we did not want for
+the service of the body the things of which we now stand in need, and
+heat and cold and the other bodily sensations were unperceived by us,
+there would be no use in this so-called wealth, if no one, that is,
+had any necessity for those things which now make us wish for wealth in
+order that we may satisfy the desires and needs of the body in respect
+of our various wants. And therefore if the possession of wealth is
+useful in ministering to our bodily wants, and bodily wants were unknown
+to us, we should not need wealth, and possibly there would be no such
+thing as wealth.
+
+ERYXIAS: Clearly not.
+
+SOCRATES: Then our conclusion is, as would appear, that wealth is what
+is useful to this end?
+
+Eryxias once more gave his assent, but the small argument considerably
+troubled him.
+
+SOCRATES: And what is your opinion about another question:--Would you
+say that the same thing can be at one time useful and at another useless
+for the production of the same result?
+
+ERYXIAS: I cannot say more than that if we require the same thing to
+produce the same result, then it seems to me to be useful; if not, not.
+
+SOCRATES: Then if without the aid of fire we could make a brazen statue,
+we should not want fire for that purpose; and if we did not want it, it
+would be useless to us? And the argument applies equally in other cases.
+
+ERYXIAS: Clearly.
+
+SOCRATES: And therefore conditions which are not required for the
+existence of a thing are not useful for the production of it?
+
+ERYXIAS: Of course not.
+
+SOCRATES: And if without gold or silver or anything else which we do
+not use directly for the body in the way that we do food and drink and
+bedding and houses,--if without these we could satisfy the wants of the
+body, they would be of no use to us for that purpose?
+
+ERYXIAS: They would not.
+
+SOCRATES: They would no longer be regarded as wealth, because they are
+useless, whereas that would be wealth which enabled us to obtain what
+was useful to us?
+
+ERYXIAS: O Socrates, you will never be able to persuade me that gold
+and silver and similar things are not wealth. But I am very strongly of
+opinion that things which are useless to us are not wealth, and that the
+money which is useful for this purpose is of the greatest use; not that
+these things are not useful towards life, if by them we can procure
+wealth.
+
+SOCRATES: And how would you answer another question? There are persons,
+are there not, who teach music and grammar and other arts for pay, and
+thus procure those things of which they stand in need?
+
+ERYXIAS: There are.
+
+SOCRATES: And these men by the arts which they profess, and in exchange
+for them, obtain the necessities of life just as we do by means of gold
+and silver?
+
+ERYXIAS: True.
+
+SOCRATES: Then if they procure by this means what they want for the
+purposes of life, that art will be useful towards life? For do we not
+say that silver is useful because it enables us to supply our bodily
+needs?
+
+ERYXIAS: We do.
+
+SOCRATES: Then if these arts are reckoned among things useful, the arts
+are wealth for the same reason as gold and silver are, for, clearly,
+the possession of them gives wealth. Yet a little while ago we found it
+difficult to accept the argument which proved that the wisest are the
+wealthiest. But now there seems no escape from this conclusion. Suppose
+that we are asked, 'Is a horse useful to everybody?' will not our reply
+be, 'No, but only to those who know how to use a horse?'
+
+ERYXIAS: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: And so, too, physic is not useful to every one, but only to
+him who knows how to use it?
+
+ERYXIAS: True.
+
+SOCRATES: And the same is the case with everything else?
+
+ERYXIAS: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: Then gold and silver and all the other elements which are
+supposed to make up wealth are only useful to the person who knows how
+to use them?
+
+ERYXIAS: Exactly.
+
+SOCRATES: And were we not saying before that it was the business of a
+good man and a gentleman to know where and how anything should be used?
+
+ERYXIAS: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: The good and gentle, therefore will alone have profit from
+these things, supposing at least that they know how to use them. But if
+so, to them only will they seem to be wealth. It appears, however, that
+where a person is ignorant of riding, and has horses which are useless
+to him, if some one teaches him that art, he makes him also richer, for
+what was before useless has now become useful to him, and in giving him
+knowledge he has also conferred riches upon him.
+
+ERYXIAS: That is the case.
+
+SOCRATES: Yet I dare be sworn that Critias will not be moved a whit by
+the argument.
+
+CRITIAS: No, by heaven, I should be a madman if I were. But why do you
+not finish the argument which proves that gold and silver and other
+things which seem to be wealth are not real wealth? For I have been
+exceedingly delighted to hear the discourses which you have just been
+holding.
+
+SOCRATES: My argument, Critias (I said), appears to have given you the
+same kind of pleasure which you might have derived from some rhapsode's
+recitation of Homer; for you do not believe a word of what has been
+said. But come now, give me an answer to this question. Are not certain
+things useful to the builder when he is building a house?
+
+CRITIAS: They are.
+
+SOCRATES: And would you say that those things are useful which are
+employed in house building,--stones and bricks and beams and the like,
+and also the instruments with which the builder built the house, the
+beams and stones which they provided, and again the instruments by which
+these were obtained?
+
+CRITIAS: It seems to me that they are all useful for building.
+
+SOCRATES: And is it not true of every art, that not only the materials
+but the instruments by which we procure them and without which the work
+could not go on, are useful for that art?
+
+CRITIAS: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: And further, the instruments by which the instruments are
+procured, and so on, going back from stage to stage ad infinitum,--are
+not all these, in your opinion, necessary in order to carry out the
+work?
+
+CRITIAS: We may fairly suppose such to be the case.
+
+SOCRATES: And if a man has food and drink and clothes and the other
+things which are useful to the body, would he need gold or silver or any
+other means by which he could procure that which he now has?
+
+CRITIAS: I do not think so.
+
+SOCRATES: Then you consider that a man never wants any of these things
+for the use of the body?
+
+CRITIAS: Certainly not.
+
+SOCRATES: And if they appear useless to this end, ought they not always
+to appear useless? For we have already laid down the principle that
+things cannot be at one time useful and at another time not, in the same
+process.
+
+CRITIAS: But in that respect your argument and mine are the same. For
+you maintain if they are useful to a certain end, they can never become
+useless; whereas I say that in order to accomplish some results bad
+things are needed, and good for others.
+
+SOCRATES: But can a bad thing be used to carry out a good purpose?
+
+CRITIAS: I should say not.
+
+SOCRATES: And we call those actions good which a man does for the sake
+of virtue?
+
+CRITIAS: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: But can a man learn any kind of knowledge which is imparted by
+word of mouth if he is wholly deprived of the sense of hearing?
+
+CRITIAS: Certainly not, I think.
+
+SOCRATES: And will not hearing be useful for virtue, if virtue is taught
+by hearing and we use the sense of hearing in giving instruction?
+
+CRITIAS: Yes.
+
+SOCRATES: And since medicine frees the sick man from his disease, that
+art too may sometimes appear useful in the acquisition of virtue, e.g.
+when hearing is procured by the aid of medicine.
+
+CRITIAS: Very likely.
+
+SOCRATES: But if, again, we obtain by wealth the aid of medicine, shall
+we not regard wealth as useful for virtue?
+
+CRITIAS: True.
+
+SOCRATES: And also the instruments by which wealth is procured?
+
+CRITIAS: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: Then you think that a man may gain wealth by bad and
+disgraceful means, and, having obtained the aid of medicine which
+enables him to acquire the power of hearing, may use that very faculty
+for the acquisition of virtue?
+
+CRITIAS: Yes, I do.
+
+SOCRATES: But can that which is evil be useful for virtue?
+
+CRITIAS: No.
+
+SOCRATES: It is not therefore necessary that the means by which we
+obtain what is useful for a certain object should always be useful for
+the same object: for it seems that bad actions may sometimes serve good
+purposes? The matter will be still plainer if we look at it in this
+way:--If things are useful towards the several ends for which they
+exist, which ends would not come into existence without them, how would
+you regard them? Can ignorance, for instance, be useful for knowledge,
+or disease for health, or vice for virtue?
+
+CRITIAS: Never.
+
+SOCRATES: And yet we have already agreed--have we not?--that there
+can be no knowledge where there has not previously been ignorance, nor
+health where there has not been disease, nor virtue where there has not
+been vice?
+
+CRITIAS: I think that we have.
+
+SOCRATES: But then it would seem that the antecedents without which a
+thing cannot exist are not necessarily useful to it. Otherwise ignorance
+would appear useful for knowledge, disease for health, and vice for
+virtue.
+
+Critias still showed great reluctance to accept any argument which
+went to prove that all these things were useless. I saw that it was as
+difficult to persuade him as (according to the proverb) it is to boil
+a stone, so I said: Let us bid 'good-bye' to the discussion, since we
+cannot agree whether these things are useful and a part of wealth or
+not. But what shall we say to another question: Which is the happier and
+better man,--he who requires the greatest quantity of necessaries for
+body and diet, or he who requires only the fewest and least? The answer
+will perhaps become more obvious if we suppose some one, comparing the
+man himself at different times, to consider whether his condition is
+better when he is sick or when he is well?
+
+CRITIAS: That is not a question which needs much consideration.
+
+SOCRATES: Probably, I said, every one can understand that health is a
+better condition than disease. But when have we the greatest and the
+most various needs, when we are sick or when we are well?
+
+CRITIAS: When we are sick.
+
+SOCRATES: And when we are in the worst state we have the greatest and
+most especial need and desire of bodily pleasures?
+
+CRITIAS: True.
+
+SOCRATES: And seeing that a man is best off when he is least in need of
+such things, does not the same reasoning apply to the case of any two
+persons, of whom one has many and great wants and desires, and the other
+few and moderate? For instance, some men are gamblers, some drunkards,
+and some gluttons: and gambling and the love of drink and greediness are
+all desires?
+
+CRITIAS: Certainly.
+
+SOCRATES: But desires are only the lack of something: and those who have
+the greatest desires are in a worse condition than those who have none
+or very slight ones?
+
+CRITIAS: Certainly I consider that those who have such wants are bad,
+and that the greater their wants the worse they are.
+
+SOCRATES: And do we think it possible that a thing should be useful for
+a purpose unless we have need of it for that purpose?
+
+CRITIAS: No.
+
+SOCRATES: Then if these things are useful for supplying the needs of the
+body, we must want them for that purpose?
+
+CRITIAS: That is my opinion.
+
+SOCRATES: And he to whom the greatest number of things are useful
+for his purpose, will also want the greatest number of means of
+accomplishing it, supposing that we necessarily feel the want of all
+useful things?
+
+CRITIAS: It seems so.
+
+SOCRATES: The argument proves then that he who has great riches has
+likewise need of many things for the supply of the wants of the body;
+for wealth appears useful towards that end. And the richest must be in
+the worst condition, since they seem to be most in want of such things.
+
+
+
+
+
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