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diff --git a/.gitattributes b/.gitattributes new file mode 100644 index 0000000..6833f05 --- /dev/null +++ b/.gitattributes @@ -0,0 +1,3 @@ +* text=auto +*.txt text +*.md text diff --git a/7080-8.txt b/7080-8.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..342cca7 --- /dev/null +++ b/7080-8.txt @@ -0,0 +1,16454 @@ +The Project Gutenberg EBook of Speeches on Questions of Public Policy, +Volume 1, by John Bright + +Copyright laws are changing all over the world. Be sure to check the +copyright laws for your country before downloading or redistributing +this or any other Project Gutenberg eBook. + +This header should be the first thing seen when viewing this Project +Gutenberg file. Please do not remove it. Do not change or edit the +header without written permission. + +Please read the "legal small print," and other information about the +eBook and Project Gutenberg at the bottom of this file. Included is +important information about your specific rights and restrictions in +how the file may be used. You can also find out about how to make a +donation to Project Gutenberg, and how to get involved. + + +**Welcome To The World of Free Plain Vanilla Electronic Texts** + +**eBooks Readable By Both Humans and By Computers, Since 1971** + +*****These eBooks Were Prepared By Thousands of Volunteers!***** + + +Title: Speeches on Questions of Public Policy, Volume 1 + +Author: John Bright + +Release Date: December, 2004 [EBook #7080] +[Yes, we are more than one year ahead of schedule] +[This file was first posted on March 7, 2003] + +Edition: 10 + +Language: English + +Character set encoding: Latin-1 + +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK SPEECHES ON PUBLIC POLICY *** + + + + +This eBook was produced by Blain Nelson, Charles Franks +and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team + + + + +SPEECHES + +_ON QUESTIONS OF PUBLIC POLICY_ + +BY +JOHN BRIGHT, M.P. + +EDITED BY +JAMES E. THOROLD ROGERS + +IN TWO VOLUMES + +VOL. I. + +'BE JUST AND FEAR NOT' + +SECOND EDITION + + * * * * * + +PREFACE. + +The speeches which have been selected for publication in these volumes +possess a value, as examples of the art of public speaking, which no +person will be likely to underrate. Those who may differ from Mr. +Bright's theory of the public good will have no difficulty in +acknowledging the clearness of his diction, the skill with which he +arranges his arguments, the vigour of his style, the persuasiveness of +his reasoning, and above all, the perfect candour and sincerity with +which he expresses his political convictions. + +It seems likely that the course of events in this country will lead +those, who may desire to possess influence in the conduct of public +affairs, to study the art of public speaking. If so, nothing which can +be found in English literature will aid the aspirant after this great +faculty more than the careful and reiterated perusal of the speeches +contained in these volumes. Tried indeed by the effect produced upon any +audience by their easy flow and perfect clearness, or analysed by any of +those systems of criticism which under the name of 'rhetoric' have been +saved to us from the learning of the ancient world, these speeches would +be admitted to satisfy either process. + +This is not the occasion on which to point out the causes which confer +so great an artistic value on these compositions; which give them now, +and will give them hereafter, so high a place in English literature. At +the present time nearly a hundred millions of the earth's inhabitants +speak the English tongue. A century hence, and it will probably be the +speech of nearly half the inhabitants of the globe. I think that no +master of that language will occupy a loftier position than Mr. Bright; +that no speaker will teach with greater exactness the noblest and rarest +of the social arts, the art of clear and persuasive exposition. But +before this art can be attained (so said the greatest critic that the +world has known), it is necessary that the speaker should secure the +sympathies of his audience, should convince them of his statesmanship, +should show that he is free from any taint of self-interest or +dissimulation. These conditions of public trust still form, as +heretofore, in every country of free thought and free speech, the +foundation of a good reputation and of personal influence. It is with +the fact that such are the characteristics of my friend's eloquence, +that I have been strongly impressed in collecting and editing the +materials of these volumes. + +Since the days of those men of renown who lived through the first half +of the seventeenth century, when the liveliest religious feeling was +joined to the loftiest patriotism, and men laboured for their conscience +and their country, England has witnessed no political career like that +of Cobden and Bright. Cobden's death was a great loss to his country, +for it occurred at a time when England could ill spare a conscientious +statesman. Nations, however, cannot be saved by the virtues, nor need +they be lost by the vices, of their public men. But Cobden's death was +an irreparable loss to his friends--most of all to the friend who had +been, in an incessant struggle for public duty and truth, of one heart +and of one purpose with him. + +Those who have been familiar with Cobden's mind know how wide was his +knowledge, how true was his judgment of political events. The vast +majority of those who followed his public career had but a scanty +acquaintance with the resources of his sagacity and foresight. He spoke +to the people on a few subjects only. The wisdom of Free Trade; the +necessity of Parliamentary Reform; the dangerous tendency of those laws +which favour the accumulation of land in few hands; the urgent need for +a system of national education; the mischief of the mere military +spirit; the prudence of uniting communities by the multiplication of +international interests; the abandonment of the policy of diplomatic and +military intermeddling; the advocacy, in short, of the common good in +place of a spurious patriotism, of selfish, local, or class aims, formed +the subject of Cobden's public utterances. But his intimate friends, and +in particular his regular correspondents, were aware that his political +criticism was as general as it was accurate. The loss then of his wise +and lucid counsel was the greatest to the survivor of a personal and a +political friendship which was continued uninterruptedly through so long +and so active a career. + +At the commencement of Mr. Bright's public life, the shortsighted +selfishness of a landlords' parliament was afflicting the United Kingdom +with a continuous dearth. Labour was starved, and capital was made +unproductive by the Corn-laws. The country was tied to a system by which +Great Britain and her Colonies deliberately chose the dearest market for +their purchases. In the same spirit, the price of freights was wilfully +heightened by the Navigation-laws. Important branches of home industry +were crippled by prying, vexatious, and wasteful excises. And this +system was conceived to be the highest wisdom; or at any rate, to be so +invincible a necessity that it could not be avoided or altered without +danger. The country, if it were to make its way, could make it only +because other nations were servile imitators of our commercial policy, +and, in the vain hope of retaliation, were hindering their own progress. + +The foreign policy of Great Britain was suspicious and irritating, for +it was secret, busy, and meddling, insolent to the weak, conciliatory, +even truckling, to the strong. The very name of diplomacy is and has +been odious to English Liberals, for by means of it a reactionary +Government could check domestic reforms, and hinder the community of +nations indefinitely. The policy of the Foreign Office was constantly +directed towards embittering, if not embroiling, the relations between +this and other countries. It is difficult to account for these +intrigues, except on the ground that successive Governments were anxious +to maintain political and social anomalies at home, while they were +affecting to support 'the balance of power' abroad. The abandonment of +intervention in foreign politics was the beginning of agitation for +domestic reforms. + +Perhaps no part of the public administration was worse than that of +India. The great Company had lost its monopoly of trade in the Eastern +seas, but retained its administrative powers over the subject races and +dependent princes of India. Its system of finance was wasteful and +oppressive. Its policy was that of aggression and annexation. In +practice, the Government was irresponsible. Nobody listened to Indian +affairs in Parliament, except on rare occasions, or for party purposes. +The Governor-General did as he pleased. The President of the Board of +Control did as he pleased. If the reader wishes to see how the former +acted, Mr. Cobden's pamphlet, 'How Wars are got up in India' will +enlighten him. If it be necessary to inquire what the policy of the +latter might be, the disastrous and disgraceful Affghan War is an +illustration. Never perhaps was a war commenced more recklessly. It is +certain that when loss and dishonour fell on the English arms, the +statesmen who recommended and insisted on the war tried to screen +themselves from just blame by the basest arts. + +The internal resources of India were utterly neglected. The Company +collected part of its revenue from a land-tax, levied in the worst +shape. In order to secure an income through a monopoly, it constrained +the cultivation of certain drugs for which there was a foreign demand; +and neglected to encourage the cultivation of cotton, for which the home +demand was wellnigh boundless, and to which the Indian supply might be +made to correspond. The Company constructed neither road nor canal. It +did nothing towards maintaining the means of communication which even +the native governments had adopted. It suffered the ancient roads and +tanks to fall into decay. It neglected to educate the native gentry, +much more the people. In brief, the policy of the Company in dealing +with India was the policy of Old Spain with her Transatlantic +possessions, only that it was more jealous and illiberal. + +Against these social and political evils, and many others which might be +enumerated, a very small body of true and resolute statesmen arrayed +themselves. Among these statesmen the most eminent were the two chiefs +of the Anti-Corn-law agitation. Never did men lead a hope which seemed +more forlorn. They had as opponents nearly the whole Upper House of +Parliament, a powerful and compact party in the Lower. The Established +Church was, of course, against them. The London newspapers, at that time +almost the only political power in the press, were against them. The +'educated' classes were against them. Many of the working people were +unfriendly to them, for the Chartists believed that the repeal of the +Corn-laws would lower the price of labour. After a long struggle they +gained the day; for an accident, the Irish famine, rendered a change in +the Corn-laws inevitable. But had it not been for the organization of +the League, the accident would have had no effect; for it is a rule in +the philosophy of politics that an accident is valuable only when the +machinery for making use of the accident is at hand. Calamities never +teach wisdom to fools, they render it possible that the wise should +avail themselves of the emergency. + +A similar calamity, long foreseen by prudent men, caused the political +extinction of the East India Company. The joint action of the Board of +Control and the Directors led to the Indian mutiny. The suppression of +the Indian mutiny led to the suppression of the Leadenhall Street Divan. +Another calamity, also foreseen by statesmen, the outbreak of the +American Civil War, gave India commercial hope, and retrieved the +finances which the Company's rule had thrown into hopeless disorder. + +I have selected the speeches contained in these two volumes, with a view +to supplying the public with the evidence on which Mr. Bright's friends +assert his right to a place in the front rank of English statesmen. I +suppose that there is no better evidence of statesmanship than +prescience; that no fuller confirmation of this evidence can be found +than in the popular acceptance of those principles which were once +unpopular and discredited. A short time since, Lord Derby said that Mr. +Bright was the real leader of the Opposition. It is true that he has +given great aid to that opposition which Lord Derby and his friends have +often encountered, and by which, to their great discredit, but to their +great advantage, they have been constantly defeated. If Lord Derby is in +the right, Mr. Bright is the leader of the People, while his Lordship +represents a party which is reckless because it is desperate. The policy +which Mr. Bright has advocated in these pages, and throughout a quarter +of a century, a policy from which he has never swerved, has at last been +accepted by the nation, despite the constant resistance of Lord Derby +and his friends. It embodies the national will, because it has attacked, +and in many cases vanquished, institutions and laws which have become +unpopular, because they have been manifestly mischievous and +destructive. No one knows better how conservative and tolerant is public +opinion in England towards traditional institutions, than Mr. Bright +does; or how indifferent the nation is to attacks on an untenable +practice and a bad law, until it awakens to the fact that the law or the +practice is ruinous. + +Mr. Bright's political opinions have not been adopted because they were +popular. He was skilfully, and for a time successfully, maligned by Lord +Palmerston, on account of his persevering resistance to the policy of +the Russian War. But it is probable that the views he entertained at +that time will find more enduring acceptance than those which Lord +Palmerston and Lord Palmerston's colleagues promulgated, and that he has +done more to deface that Moloch, 'the balance of power,' than any other +man living. Shortly after the beginning of the Planters' War, almost all +the upper, and many of the middle classes, sympathized with the Slave- +owners' conspiracy. Everybody knows which side Mr. Bright took, and how +judicious and far-sighted he was in taking it. But everybody should +remember also how, when Mr. Bright pointed out the consequences likely +to ensue from the cruise of the _Alabama_, he was insulted by Mr. +Laird in the House of Commons; the Mr. Laird who launched the +_Alabama_, who has been the means of creating bitter enmity between +the people of this country and of the United States, and has contrived +to invest the unlawful speculation of a shipbuilder with the dignity of +an international difficulty, to make it the material for an unsettled +diplomatic question. + +There are many social and political reforms, destined, it may be hoped, +to become matter of debate and action in a Reformed Parliament, towards +the accomplishment of which Mr. Bright has powerfully contributed. There +is that without which Reform is a fraud, the redistribution of seats; +that without which it is a sham, the ballot; that without which it is +possibly a danger, a system of national education, which should be, if +not compulsory, so cogently expedient that it cannot be rejected. There +is the great question of the distribution of land, its occupancy, and +its relief from that pestilent system of game preserving which robs the +farmer of his profit and the people of their home supplies. There is the +pacification of Ireland. The only consolation which can be gathered from +the condition of that unhappy country is, that reforms, which are highly +expedient in Great Britain, are vital in Ireland, and that they +therefore become familiar to the public mind. There is the development +of international amity and good-will, first between ourselves and the +people of our own race, next between all nations. There is the +recognition of public duty to inferior or subject races, a duty which +was grievously transgressed before and after the Indian mutiny, and has +been still more atrociously outraged in the Jamaica massacre. Upon these +and similar matters, no man who wishes to deserve the reputation of a +just and wise statesman,--in other words, to fulfil the highest and +greatest functions which man can render to man,--can find a worthier +study than the public career of an Englishman whose guiding principle +throughout his whole life has been his favourite motto, 'Be just and +fear not.' + +I have divided the speeches contained in these volumes into groups. The +materials for selection are so abundant, that I have been constrained to +omit many a speech which is worthy of careful perusal. I have naturally +given prominence to those subjects with which Mr. Bright has been +especially identified, as, for example, India, America, Ireland, and +Parliamentary Reform. But nearly every topic of great public interest on +which Mr. Bright has spoken is represented in these volumes. + +A statement of the views entertained by an eminent politician, who +wields a vast influence in the country, is always valuable. It is more +valuable when the utterances are profound, consistent, candid. It is +most valuable at a crisis when the people of these islands are invited +to take part in a contest where the broad principles of truth, honour, +and justice are arrayed on one side, and their victory is threatened by +those false cries, those reckless calumnies, those impudent evasions +which form the party weapons of desperate and unscrupulous men. + +All the speeches in these volumes have been revised by Mr. Bright. The +Editor is responsible for their selection, for this Preface, and for the +Index at the close of the second volume. + +JAMES E. THOROLD ROGERS. + +OXFORD, _June_ 30, 1868. + + * * * * * + +The Second Edition of these volumes is an exact reprint of the first, +certain obvious errors of the press only having been corrected. + +OXFORD, _Dec_. 21, 1868. + + * * * * * + +CONTENTS OF VOL. I. + +INDIA. + + +I. House of Commons, June 3, 1853 + +II. House of Commons, June 24, 1858 + +III. House of Commons, May 20, 1858 + +IV. House of Commons, August 1, 1859 + +V. House of Commons, March 19, 1861 + +CANADA. + +I. House of Commons, March 13, 1865 + +II. _The Canadian Fortifications_. House of Commons, + March 23, 1865 + +III. _The Canadian Confederation Scheme_. House of + Commons, February 28, 1867 + +AMERICA. + + +I. The _'Trent' Affair_. Rochdale, December 4, 1861 + +II. _The War and the Supply of Cotton_. Birmingham, + December 18, 1862 + +III. _Slavery and Secession_. Rochdale, February 3, + 1863 + +IV. _The Struggle in America_. St. James's Hall, + March 26, 1863 + +V. London, June 16, 1863 + +VI. _Mr. Roebuck's Motion for Recognition of the + Southern Confederacy_. House of Commons, + June 30, 1863 + +VII. London, June 29, 1867 + +IRELAND. + +I. _Maynooth Grand_. House of Commons, April 16, + 1845 + +II. _Crime and Outrage Bill_. House of Commons, + December 13, 1847 + +III. _Employment of the Poor_. House of Commons, + August 25, 1848 + +IV. _Rate in Aid_. House of Commons, April 2, + 1849 + +V. _Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill_. House of Commons, + February 17, 1866 + +VI. Dublin, October 30, 1866 + +VII. Dublin, November 2, 1866 + +VIII. House of Commons, March 14, 1868 + +IX. House of Commons, April 1, 1868 + +RUSSIA. + +I. _War with Russia--The Queen's Message_. House + of Commons, March 31, 1854 + +II. _Enlistment of Foreigners' Bill_. House of Commons, + December 22, 1854 + +III. _Negotiations at Vienna_. House of Commons, + February 23, 1855 + +IV. _On the Prosecution of the Russian War_. House + of Commons, June 7, 1855 + +Letter of John Bright to Absalom Watkin on the Russian War + + * * * * * + +INDIA + +I + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 3, 1853. + +_From Hansard_. + +[The ministerial measure for the government of India was introduced by +Sir Charles Wood on June 3, 1853. The particulars of the Bill were as +follows: The Government proposed that for the future the relations +between the Directors and the Board of Control should be unchanged, but +that the constitution of the former should be altered and its patronage +curtailed. It reduced the number of the Members of the Court from +twenty-four to eighteen, of whom twelve were to be elected as before, +and six nominated by the Crown from Indian servants who had been ten +years in the service of the Crown or the Company. One-third of this +number was to go out every second year, but to be re-eligible. +Nominations by favour were to be abolished. The governorship of Bengal +was to be separated from the office of Governor-General. The legislative +council was to be improved and enlarged, the number to be twelve. The +Bill passed the House of Lords on June 13.] + +I feel a considerable disadvantage in rising to address the House after +having listened for upwards of five hours to the speech of the right +hon. Gentleman. But the question is one, as the right hon. Gentleman has +said, of first-rate importance; and as I happen from a variety of +circumstances to have paid some attention to it, and to have formed some +strong opinions in regard to it, I am unwilling even that the Bill +should be brought in, or that this opportunity should pass, without +saying something, which will be partly in reply to the speech of the +right hon. Gentleman, and partly by way of comment on the plan which he +has submitted to the House. There is, as it appears to me, great +inconsistency between the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, and that +which he proposes should be done; because, really, if we take his speech +as a true and faithful statement of the condition of India, and of the +past proceedings of the Government in that country, our conviction must +be that the right hon. Gentleman will be greatly to be blamed in making +any alteration in that Government. At the same time, if it be not a +faithful portraiture of the Government, and of its transactions in +India, then what the right hon. Gentleman proposes to do in regard to +the home administration of that country is altogether insufficient for +the occasion. I cannot on the present occasion go into many of the +details on which the right hon. Gentleman has touched; but the +observations which I have to make will refer to matters of government, +and those will be confined chiefly to the organisation of the home +administration. I am not much surprised that the Government should have +taken what I will call a very unsatisfactory course with regard to the +measure they have propounded, because they evidently did not seem +exactly to know what they ought to do from the very first moment that +this question was brought before them. I do not allude to the whole of +the Treasury bench, but I refer particularly to the noble Lord (Lord J. +Russell), because he was at the head of the Government when this +question was first brought before them. Lord Broughton, then Sir John +Hobhouse, was at that time the President of the Board of Control, and he +was not in favour of a Committee to inquire into the past government and +present condition of India. Shortly afterwards, however, it was +considered by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) that it would be +desirable to have such a Committee appointed. A Committee was appointed, +and it sat. + +But at the commencement of the present Session the noble Lord intimated +very distinctly, in answer to a question which I put to him, and which +seemed to make the noble Lord unnecessarily angry, that it was the +intention of the Government to legislate, and in such a way as to leave +the Indian Government almost entirely the same as it had hitherto been. +['No, no!'] Well, I thought that the noble Lord said so, and in +corroboration of that I may mention that the noble Lord quoted--and I +believe that it was the noble Lord's only authority--the opinion of the +right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford (Mr. Herries), who +considered that no material change was required in the constitution of +the home Indian Government. Well, when the noble Lord made that +announcement, considerable dissatisfaction was manifested on both sides +of the House, some hon. Members speaking in favour of a delay of one, +two, or three years, or declaring themselves strongly against the +present constitution of the Indian Government. However, from that time +to this, various rumours were afloat, and everybody was confident one +week that there would be no legislation, or only a postponement; in +another week it was thought that there was to be a very sweeping measure +(which last report, I must say, I never believed); and the week after +that people were again led to the conclusion that there would be a +measure introduced such as the one this night submitted to the House. +Again, it was understood so lately as last Saturday that there would be +no legislation on the subject, excepting a mere temporary measure for a +postponement. I confess that I was myself taken in by that announcement. +On Monday the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Danby Seymour) gave notice of a +question on the same subject, and he was requested not to ask it till +Tuesday. On Tuesday there was a Cabinet Council, and whether there was a +change of opinion then I know not, but I presume that there was. The +opinion that was confidently expressed on Saturday gave way to a new +opinion, and the noble Lord announced that legislation would be +proceeded with immediately. All this indicates that there was a good +deal of vacillation on the part of the Government. At last, however, has +come the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board +of Control. There were some good things in it, no doubt. I do not +suppose that any man could stand up, and go on speaking for five hours, +without saying something that was useful. But as to the main question on +which this matter rests, I do not believe that the plan which the +Government proposes to substitute will be one particle better than that +which exists at the present moment. + +With regard to the question of patronage, I admit, so far as that goes, +that the plan proposed by the right hon. Gentleman will be an +improvement on the present system. But I do not understand that the +particular arrangement of the covenanted service is to be broken up at +all. That is a very important matter, because, although he might throw +open the nominations to the Indian service to the free competition of +all persons in this country, yet if, when these persons get out to +India, they are to become a covenanted service, as that service now is +constituted, and are to go on from beginning to end in a system of +promotion by seniority--and they are to be under pretty much the same +arrangement as at present--a great deal of the evil now existing will +remain; and the continuance of such a body as that will form a great bar +to what I am very anxious to see, namely, a very much wider employment +of the most intelligent and able men amongst the native population. + +The right hon. Gentleman has, in fact, made a long speech wholly in +defence of the Indian Government; and I cannot avoid making some remarks +upon what he has stated because I wholly dissent from a large portion of +the observations which he has made. But the right hon. Gentleman, above +all things, dreads that this matter should be delayed. Now I will just +touch upon that point. The right hon. Gentleman has said that he has not +met any one who does not consider it highly desirable that the House +should legislate upon the subject of the Government of India this year; +and that it will be a great evil if such legislation is postponed. In +support of this view he produces a private letter from Lord Dalhousie +upon the subject. Now I do not consider such evidence as by any means +conclusive, because the House knows that Lord Dalhousie has been +connected with the system that now exists. That noble Earl is also +surrounded by persons who are themselves interested in maintaining the +present system. From his elevated position also in India--I do not mean +his location at Simlah--but from his being by his station removed from +the mass of the European population, and still more removed from the +native population, I do not think it at all likely that Lord Dalhousie +will be able to form a sounder opinion upon this question than persons +who have never been in India. In my opinion, no evil can possibly arise +from creating in the minds of the population of India a feeling that the +question of Indian Government is considered by the House of Commons to +be a grave and solemn question; and I solemnly believe that if the +decision on the question be delayed for two years, so as to enable +Parliament to make due inquiries as to the means of establishing a +better form of government in India, it will create in the minds of all +the intelligent natives of India a feeling of confidence and hope, and +that whatever may be done by them in the way of agitation will be rather +for the purpose of offering information in the most friendly and +generous spirit, than of creating opposition to any Government +legislation. However, the question of delay is one which the House in +all probability will be called upon to decide on another occasion. + +But passing from that subject, I now come to the principle upon which +the right hon. Gentleman founded his Motion. The speech of I he right +hon. Gentleman was throughout that of an advocate of the Indian +Government, as at present constituted; and, if Mr. Melville had said +everything that could possibly be dragged into the case, he could not +have made it more clearly appear than the right hon. Gentleman has done +that the Government of India has been uniformly worthy of the confidence +of the country. My view of this matter, after a good deal of +observation, is, that the Indian Government, composed of two branches, +which the right hon. Gentleman does not propose to amalgamate into one, +is a Government of secrecy and irresponsibility to a degree that should +not be tolerated in a country like this, where we have a constitutional +and Parliamentary Government, I have not the least idea in any +observations which I may make either in this House or elsewhere of +bringing a charge against the East India Company--that is to say, +against any individual member of the Board of Directors, as if they were +anxious to misgovern India. I never had any such suspicion. I believe +that the twenty-four gentlemen who constitute the Board of Directors +would act just about as well as any other twenty-four persons elected by +the same process, acting under the same influences, and surrounded by +the same difficulties--having to act with another and independent body-- +the Board of Control. Neither am I hostile to the Board of Control, +because I think that the duty imposed upon it is greater than any such +body can properly perform. The right hon. Gentleman, the enormous +labours of whose office could not be accomplished by any one man, coming +into office in December, and having to propose a new Government for +India in the month of May or June, must have found it extremely +difficult to make himself master of the question. But beyond this the +House should bear in mind, that during the last thirty years there has +been a new President of the Board of Control every two years. Nay, in +the course of last year there were no less than three Presidents of the +Board of Control. Thus that Board seems framed in such a manner as to +make it altogether impossible that any one man should be able to conduct +it in the way which it ought to be conducted. Beyond this, the President +of that Board has to act in conjunction with the Court of Directors. +Without saying anything which would impute blame to any party, it must +be obvious that two such bodies combined can never carry on the +government of India wisely, and in accordance with those principles +which have been found necessary in the government of this country. The +right hon. Gentleman has been obliged to admit that the theory of the +old Government of India was one which could not be defended, and that +everybody considers it ridiculous and childish. I am not at all certain +that the one that is going to be established is in any degree better. It +was in 1784 that this form of government was established, amid the fight +of factions. In 1813 it was continued for twenty-years longer, during a +time when the country was involved in desperate hostilities with France. +In 1833 another Bill, continuing that form of government, passed through +Parliament immediately after the hurricane which carried the Reform +Bill. All these circumstances rendered it difficult for the Government, +however honestly disposed, to pass the best measure for the government +of India. But all the difficulties which then existed appear to me +wholly to have vanished. Never has any question come before Parliament +more entirely free from a complication of that nature, or one which the +House has the opportunity of more quietly and calmly considering, than +the question now before them. + +I should have been pleased if the right hon. Gentleman had given the +House the testimony of some two or three persons on his own side of the +question. But, as he has not done so, I will trouble the House by +referring to some authorities in support of my own views. I will first +refer to the work of Mr. Campbell, which has already been quoted by the +right hon. Gentleman. It is a very interesting book, and gives a great +deal of information. That writer says-- + + 'The division of authority between the Board of Control and the + Court of Directors, the large number of directors, and the + peculiar system by which measures are originated in the Court, + sent for approval to the Board, then back again to the Court, and + so on, render all deliverances very slow and difficult; and when + a measure is discussed in India, the announcement that it has + been referred to the Court of Directors is often regarded as an + indefinite postponement. In fact, it is evident that (able and + experienced as are many of the individual directors) twenty-four + directors in one place, and a Board of Control in another, are + not likely very speedily to unite in one opinion upon any + doubtful point.' + +That, I think, is likely to be the opinion of any man on the Government +of India. There is another authority to which I will refer, Mr. Kaye, +who has also written a very good book. It was actually distributed by +the Court of Directors; I have therefore a right to consider it a fair +representation of their views of what was done, especially as the +Chairman of the Court has given me a copy of the book. Mr. Kaye, in +referring to the double Government which existed in Bengal in 1772, +makes use of these expressions. When I first read them, I thought they +were a quotation from my own speeches:-- + + 'But enlightened as were the instructions thus issued to the + supervisors, the supervision was wholly inadequate to the + requirements of the case. The double Government, as I have shown, + did not work well. It was altogether a sham and an imposture. It + was soon to be demolished at a blow.... The double Government + had, by this time, fulfilled its mission. It had introduced an + incredible amount of disorder and corruption into the State, and + of poverty and wretchedness among the people; it had embarrassed + our finances, and soiled our character, and was now to be openly + recognised as a failure.' + +This is only as to Bengal. The following are the words he uses in +respect to the double Government at home:-- + + 'In respect of all transactions with foreign Powers--all matters + bearing upon questions of peace and war--the President of the + Board of Control has authority to originate such measures as he + and his colleagues in the Ministry may consider expedient. In + such cases he acts presumedly in concert with the Secret + Committee of the Court of Directors--a body composed of the + chairman, deputy-chairman, and senior member of the Court. The + Secret Committee sign the despatches which emanate from the + Board, but they have no power to withhold or to alter them. They + have not even the power to record their dissent. In fact, the + functions of the Committee are only those which, to use the words + of a distinguished member of the Court (the late Mr. Tucker), who + deplored the mystery and the mockery of a system which obscures + responsibility and deludes public opinion, could as well be + performed "by a secretary and a seal."' + +Further on he says-- + + 'In judging of responsibility, we should remember that the whole + foreign policy of the East India Company is regulated by the + Board of Control; that in the solution of the most vital + questions--questions of peace and war--affecting the finances of + the country, and, therefore, the means of internal improvement, + the Court of Directors have no more power than the mayor and + aldermen of any corporate town. India depends less on the will of + the twenty-four than on one man's caprice--here to-day and gone + to-morrow--knocked over by a gust of Parliamentary uncertainty-- + the mistaken tactics of a leader, or negligence of a whipper-in. + The past history of India is a history of revenue wasted and + domestic improvement obstructed by war.' + +This is very much what I complain of. I admit the right of the East +India Company to complain of many things done by the Board of Control; +and I am of opinion, that if the House left the two bodies to combat one +another, they would at last come to an accurate perception of what they +both are. The East India Company accused the Board of Control of making +wars and squandering the revenue which the Company collected. But Mr. +Kaye said that Mr. Tucker deplored the mystery and the mockery of a +system which obscured responsibility and deluded public opinion. It is +because of this concealment, of this delusion practised upon public +opinion, of this evasion of public responsibility and Parliamentary +control, that you have a state of things in India which the hon. Member +for Guildford (Mr. Mangles) has described, when he says that the Company +manages the revenues, collects the taxes, and gets from +20,000,000_l_. to 30,000,000_l_. a-year, and nobody knows how +much more. But, whatever it is, such is the system of foreign policy +pursued by the Board of Control--that is to say, by the gentlemen who +drop down there for six or eight or twelve months, never beyond two +years--that, whatever revenues are collected, they are squandered on +unnecessary and ruinous wars, till the country is brought to a state of +embarrassment and threatened bankruptcy. That is the real point which +the House will have to consider. + +With regard to some of the details of the Government plan, we should no +doubt all agree: but this question of divided responsibility, of +concealed responsibility, and of no responsibility whatever, that is the +real pith of the matter. The House should take care not to be diverted +from that question. [Mr. Mangles: 'Produce your own plan.'] An hon. +Gentleman has asked me to produce my plan. I will not comply with that +request, but will follow the example of a right hon. Gentleman, a great +authority in this House, who once said, when similarly challenged, that +he should produce his plan when he was called in. I believe that the +plan before the House to-night was concocted by the Board of Control and +the hon. Member for Guildford and his Colleagues I shall, therefore, +confine myself at present to the discussion of that plan. Some persons +are disposed very much (at least I am afraid so) to undervalue the +particular point which I am endeavouring to bring before the House; and +they seem to fancy that it does not much matter what shall be the form +of government in India, since the population of that country will always +be in a condition of great impoverishment and much suffering; and that +whatever is done must be done there, and that after all--after having +conquered 100,000,000 of people--it is not in our power to interfere for +the improvement of their condition. Mr. Kaye, in his book, commences the +first chapters with a very depreciating account of the character of the +Mogul Princes, with a view to show that the condition of the people of +India was at least as unfavourable under them as under British rule. I +will cite one or two cases from witnesses for whose testimony the right +hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood) must have respect. Mr. Marshman is a +gentleman who is well known as possessing a considerable amount of +information on Indian affairs, and has, I presume, come over on purpose +to give his evidence on the subject. He was editor of a newspaper which +was generally considered throughout India to be the organ of the +Government; in that newspaper, the _Friend of India_, bearing the +date 1st April, 1852, the following statement appears:-- + + 'No one has ever attempted to contradict the fact that the + condition of the Bengal peasantry is almost as wretched and + degraded as it is possible to conceive--living in the most + miserable hovels, scarcely fit for a dog-kennel, covered with + tattered rags, and unable, in too many instances, to procure more + than a single meal a-day for himself and family. The Bengal ryot + knows nothing of the most ordinary comforts of life. We speak + without exaggeration when we affirm, that if the real condition + of those who raise the harvest, which yields between + 3,000,000_l_. and 4,000,000_l_. a-year, was fully + known, it would make the ears of one who heard thereof tingle.' + +It has been said that in the Bengal Presidency the natives are in a +better condition than in the other Presidencies; and I recollect that +when I served on the Cotton Committee the evidence taken before it being +confined to the Bombay and Madras Presidencies, it was then said that if +evidence had been taken about the Bengal Presidency it would have +appeared that the condition of the natives was better. But I believe +that it is very much the same in all the Presidencies. I must say that +it is my belief that if a country be found possessing a most fertile +soil, and capable of bearing every variety of production, and that, +notwithstanding, the people are in a state of extreme destitution and +suffering, the chances are that there is some fundamental error in the +government of that country. The people of India have been subjected by +us, and how to govern them in an efficient and beneficial manner is one +of the most important points for the consideration of the House. From +the Report of the Indian Cotton Committee it appears that nearly every +witness--and the witnesses were nearly all servants of the Company--gave +evidence as to the state of destitution in which the cultivators of the +soil lived. They were in such an abject condition that they were obliged +to give 40 or 50 per cent, to borrow money to enable them to put seed +into the ground. I can, if it were necessary, bring any amount of +evidence to prove the miserable condition of the cultivators, and that +in many places they have been compelled to part with their personal +ornaments. Gentlemen who have written upon their condition have drawn a +frightful picture, and have represented the persons employed to collect +the revenue as coming upon the unhappy cultivators like locusts, and +devouring everything. With regard to the consumption of salt, looking at +the _Friend of India_, of April 14, 1853, it appears that it is on +the decline. In the year 1849-50, the consumption was 205,517 tons; in +1850-51, 186,410 tons; and in 1851-2, 146,069 tons. Thus, in the short +period of three years, there has been a decrease in the consumption +amounting to 59,448 tons, which will involve a loss to the revenue of +416,136_l_. [Footnote: The _Friend of India_ was incorrect in +this statement the real decline in the consumption of salt was about +12,000 tons.] Salt is one of those articles that people in India will +use as much of as they can afford, and the diminution in the consumption +appears to me to be a decided proof of the declining condition of the +population, and that must affect adversely the revenue of the Indian +Government. Now there is another point to which the right hon. Gentleman +has slightly alluded; it is connected with the administration of +justice, and I will read from the _Friend of India_ a case +illustrative of the efficiency of the police. The statement is so +extraordinary that it would be incredible but for the circumstance of +its having appeared in such a respectable journal:-- + + 'The affair itself is sufficiently uninteresting. A native + Zemindar had, or fancied he had, some paper rights over + certain lands occupied by a European planter, and, as a + necessary consequence, sent a body of armed retainers to + attack his factory. The European resisted in the same + fashion by calling out his retainers. There was a pitched + battle, and several persons were wounded, if not slain; + while the Darogah, the appointed guardian of the peace, sat + on the roof of a neighbouring hut and looked on with an + interest, the keenness of which was probably not diminished + by the fact of his own immunity from the pains and perils of + the conflict. There has been a judicial investigation, and + somebody will probably be punished, if not by actual + sentence, by the necessary disbursement of fees and + douceurs, but the evil will not be thereby suppressed or + even abated. The incident, trifling as it may appear--and + the fact that it is trifling is no slight evidence of a + disorganised state of society--is an epitome in small type + of our Bengal police history. On all sides, and in every + instance, we have the same picture--great offences, the + police indifferent or inefficient, judicial investigations + protracted till the sufferers regret that they did not + patiently endure the injury, and somebody punished, but no + visible abatement of the crime. The fact is, and it is + beginning at last to be acknowledged everywhere, except + perhaps at home, that Bengal does not need so much a + "reform" or reorganisation of the police, as a police, a + body of some kind, specially organised for the preservation + of order. Why the change is so long postponed, no one, not + familiar with the _arcana_ of Leadenhall-street and + Cannon-row, can readily explain.' + +Mr. Marshman uses the expression, 'the incident, trifling as it may +appear;' but I will ask the House if they can conceive a state of +society in a country under the Government of England where a scene of +violence such as has been described could be considered trifling? + +The right hon. Gentleman has, while admitting that the want of roads in +some districts of India is a great evil, endeavoured to show that a +great deal has been done to remedy the deficiency, and that on some +roads the mails travel as fast as ten miles an hour. Now, I believe that +if the speed were taken at five miles an hour, it would be nearer the +truth; and I will beg the House to excuse me if I read another extract +from the _Friend of India_ of April 14, 1853:-- + + 'The Grand Trunk, however, is the only road upon which a + good speed has been attained, remarks being attached to all + of the remainder strongly indicative of the want of improved + means of communication. From Shergotty to Gyah, and Gyah to + Patna, for instance, the pace is four miles and a half an + hour; but then "the road is cutcha, and the slightest shower + of rain renders it puddly and impracticable for speedy + transit." From Patna to Benares the official account is the + same, but the rate increases at one stage to five miles and + a half. The southern roads are, however, in the worst + condition, the mails travelling to Jelazore at three miles + an hour, or less than a groom can walk; and even between + Calcutta and Baraset the rate rises to only four miles and a + half an hour, while everywhere we have such notices as "road + intersected by numerous unbridged rivers and nullahs," "road + has not been repaired for these many years," "road not + repaired for years," the "road in so bad a state, and so + much intersected by rivers and nullahs, that no great + improvement in the speed of the mails can be effected." And + yet the surplus Ferry Funds might, one would think, if + economically administered, be sufficient to pay at least for + the maintenance of the roads already in existence. New + roads, we fear, are hopeless until Parliament fixes a + _minimum_, which must be expended on them; and even + then it may be allowed to accumulate, as the Parliamentary + grant for education has done at Madras.' + +The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the subject of irrigation; and +I hold in my hand an extract from the Report of the Commission which +inquired into the subject. The Report states that-- + + 'The loss of revenue by the famine of 1832-33 is estimated at + least at 1,000,000_l_. sterling; the loss of property at a + far greater amount; of life, at 200,000 or 300,000; and of + cattle, at 200,000 at the lowest, in Guntore alone, besides the + ruin of 70,000 houses. The famine of the Northern Circars in + 1833, and that of the north-western provinces of India at a later + period, prove with irresistible force that irrigation in this + country is properly a question, not of profit, but of existence.' + +The right hon. Gentleman has also quoted from a Report by Colonel Cotton +on the subject of the embankment of the Kistna. Now, the embankment of +the Kistna has been recommended as far back as the year 1792, and from +that time has been repeatedly brought forward. The whole estimate for it +is but 155,000_l_., and it was not until September, 1852, that the +preliminary operations were commenced. I find this officer stating with +respect to the district of Rajamundry, that if a particular improvement +that had been recommended above twenty years ago had been carried out, +it would have saved the lives of upwards of 100,000 persons who perished +in the famine of 1837. I say that such facts as these are a +justification of stronger language than any in which I have indulged in +reference to the neglect of the Indian Government whether in this House +or out of it. The right hon. gentleman candidly informs us that this +very embankment has been recently stopped by order of the Madras +Government, because the money was wanted for other purposes--the Burmese +war, no doubt. In the year 1849 it was reported that Colonel Cotton +wrote a despatch to the Madras Government, in which, after mentioning +facts connected with the famines, he insisted, in strong and indignant +language, that the improvements should go on. I believe that there was +an allusion in the letter to the awkward look these things would have, +pending the discussions on the Government of India, and I understand +that it was agreed that the original letter, which countermanded the +improvements, should be withdrawn, and that then the remonstrance from +Colonel Cotton should also be withdrawn. A gentleman who has been in the +Company's service, and who has for some time been engaged in +improvements, chiefly in irrigation, writes in a private letter as +follows:-- + + 'From my late investigations on this subject, I feel convinced + that the state of our communications is the most important + subject which calls for consideration. I reckon that India now + pays, for want of cheap transit, a sum equal to the whole of the + taxes; so that by reducing its cost to a tenth, which might + easily be done, we should as good as abolish all taxes. I trust + the Committees in England are going on well, in spite of the + unbecoming efforts which have been made to circumscribe and quash + their proceedings. Woe be to India, indeed, if this opportunity + is lost! Much will depend upon you-- + +(the letter was not addressed to myself)-- + + and others now in England, who know India, and have a single eye + to its welfare. It behoves you to do your utmost to improve this + most critical time, and may God in his mercy overrule all the + efforts of man for its good! What abominations, villanies, and + idiotcies there still are in our system! Is there no hope, no + possibility, of infusing a little fresh blood from some purer + source into these bodies? + +(the ruling authorities). + + It is quite clear that no radical improvement can take place till + some influences can be applied to stimulate our rulers to more + healthy, wholesome action; health can never be looked for in a + body constituted as the Court of Directors now is; nothing but + torpid disease can be expected as matters now stand. + +With respect to the administration of justice, I shall not go at any +length into that subject, because I hope it will be taken up by some +other Gentleman much more competent than myself, and I trust that a +sufficient answer will be given to what has been stated by the right +hon. Gentleman. However, as far as I am able to understand, there +appears to be throughout the whole of India, on the part of the European +population, an absolute terror of coming under the Company's Courts for +any object whatever. Within the last fortnight I have had a conversation +with a gentleman who has seen a long period of service in India, and he +declared it was hopeless to expect that Englishmen would ever invest +their property in India under any circumstances which placed their +interests at the disposal of those courts of justice. That is one reason +why there appears no increase in the number of Europeans or Englishmen +who settle in the interior of India for the purpose of investing their +capital there. The right hon. Gentleman endeavoured to make an excuse on +the ground that the Law Commission had done nothing. I was not in the +House when the right hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) brought +forward the Bill of 1833, but I understand it was stated that the Law +Commission was to do wonders; yet now we have the evidence of the right +hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control, that the Report of +the Law Commission has ever since been going backwards and forwards, +like an unsettled spirit, between this country and India. Mr. Cameron, +in his evidence, said (I suppose it is slumbering somewhere on the +shelves in the East India House) that the Court of Directors actually +sneered at the propositions of their officers for enactments of any +kind, and that it was evidently their object to gradually extinguish the +Commission altogether. Yet the evidence of Mr. Cameron went to show the +extraordinary complication and confusion of the law and law +administration over all the British dominions in India. The right hon. +Gentleman the President of the Board of Control also referred to the +statistics laid before the public; but I want to know why Colonel Sykes' +statistical tables are not before the House. They are at the India +House; but a journey to Leadenhall-street seems to be as long as one to +India, and one can as soon get a communication by the overland mail as +any information from the India House. What did Colonel Sykes say, with +respect to a subject referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, who had +given the House to suppose that a great deal had been done in respect to +improvements in India? Colonel Sykes stated that in fifteen years, from +1838 to 1852, the average expenditure throughout the whole of India on +public works, including roads, bridges, tanks, and canals, was +299,732_l_. The north-west appeared to be the pet district; and in +1851 the total expenditure was 334,000_l_., of which the north-west +district had 240,000_l_. In 1852 the estimate was 693,000_l_., +of which the north-west district was to have 492,000_l_., leaving +only 94,000_l_. in 1851, and 201,000_l_. in 1852, for public +works of all kinds in the three Presidencies of Bengal, Madras, and +Bombay, with a population of 70,000,000 souls. The right hon. Gentleman +then referred to the exports from this country, and the increase of +trade with India; and a kindred subject to that was the mode in which +Englishmen settle in India. What I want to show is, that the reason why +so little is done with India by Englishmen is, that there does not exist +in that country the same security for their investments as in almost +every other country in the world. I recollect receiving from Mr. Mackay, +who was sent out by the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, a letter +expressing his amazement on finding that in the interior of India an +Englishman was hardly known, unless he now and then made his appearance +as a tax collector. The following Return shows in what small numbers +Europeans resort to India:-- + + 'British-born subjects in India not in the service of the Queen + or the Company:-- + + Bengal 6,749 + Madras 1,661 + Bombay 1,596 + ------ + 10,006 + + 'In the interior of the country, engaged in agriculture or + manufactures-- + + Bengal 273 + Madras 37 + Bombay 7 + ------ + 317' + +I cannot believe, if the United States had been the possessors of India, +but that where there are tens of Europeans now in that country there +would have been, not hundreds, but thousands of the people of America. +The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the exports to India, and wanted to +show how large they were. Certainly they have increased very much, +because they started from nothing at all. Before the opening of the +trade, the Court of Proprietors, by resolution, declared that it was +quite a delusion to suppose it possible to increase the trade with +India. In 1850 the total exports to India from Great Britain and Ireland +were 8,024,000_l_., of which cotton goods alone amounted to +5,220,000_l_., leaving 2,804,000_l_. for the total exports +from Great Britain and Ireland upon all other branches of industry other +than cotton. Now, let the House make a comparison with another country, +one with which a moderately fair comparison might be made. Brazil has a +population of 7,500,000 souls, half of whom are reckoned to be slaves, +yet the consumption of British goods is greater in Brazil, in proportion +to the population, than in India--the former country, with a population +of 7,500,000, taking British goods to the amount of 2,500,000_l_. +If India took but half the quantity of our exports that Brazil did in +proportion to her population, she would take more than five times what +she now takes. Yet Brazil is a country upon which we have imposed the +payment of exorbitant duties, which we have almost debarred from trading +with us by an absurd monopoly in sugar, while India is a country +entirely under our own government, and which, we are told, is enjoying +the greatest possible blessings under the present administration, +compared with what it enjoyed under its former rulers. Our exports to +India in 1814 were 826,000_l_.; in 1832 they were +3,600,000_l_.; in 1843 they were 6,500,000_l_.; and in 1850 +they were 8,000,000_l_. India consumes our exports at the rate of +1_s_. 3 _d_. per head; whilst in South America, including the +whole of the slave population, the consumption per head is 8 _s_. +8_d_. These are facts which the right hon. Baronet is bound to pay +serious attention to. For myself, representing, as I do, one of our +great seats of manufacturing industry, I feel myself doubly called upon +to lose no opportunity of bringing such facts before the House, +satisfied as I am that there is no Member of this House so obtuse as not +to comprehend how materially the great manufacturing interests of this +country are concerned in the question--what shall be the future +Government of India? + +Another subject requiring close attention on the part of Parliament is +the employment of the natives of India in the service of the Government. +The right hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay), in proposing the +Indian Bill of 1833, had dwelt on one of its clauses, which provided +that neither colour, nor caste, nor religion, nor place of birth, should +be a bar to the employment of persons by the Government; whereas, as +matter of fact, from that time to this, no person in India has been so +employed, who might not have been equally employed before that clause +was enacted; and, from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the +President of the Board of Control, that it is proposed to keep up the +covenanted service system, it is clear that this most objectionable and +most offensive state of things is to continue. Mr. Cameron, a gentleman +thoroughly versed in the subject, as fourth member of Council in India, +President of the Indian Law Commission, and of the Council of Education +for Bengal--what does he say on this point? He says-- + + 'The statute of 1833 made the natives of India eligible to all + offices under the Company. But during the twenty years that have + since elapsed, not one of the natives has been appointed to any + office except such as they were eligible to before the statute. + It is not, however, of this omission that I should feel justified + in complaining, if the Company had shown any disposition to make + the natives fit, by the highest European education, for admission + to their covenanted service. Their disposition, as far as it can + be devised, is of the opposite kind. + + 'When four students (added Mr. Cameron) were sent to London from + the Medical College of Calcutta, under the sanction of Lord + Hardinge, in Council, to complete their professional education, + the Court of Directors expressed their dissatisfaction; and when + a plan for establishing a University at Calcutta, which had been + prepared by the Council of Education, was recommended to their + adoption by Lord Hardinge, in Council, they answered that the + project was premature. As to the Law Commission, I am afraid that + the Court of Directors have been accustomed to think of it only + with the intention of procuring its abolition.' + +Under the Act of 1833 the natives of India were declared to be eligible +to any office under the Company. No native has, in the twenty years +which have since elapsed, been appointed to any office in pursuance of +that clause which he might not have held before the Bill passed, or had +it never passed at all. There might not, perhaps, have been so much +reason to complain of this circumstance, had the Government of India +meanwhile shown a disposition to qualify the natives for the covenanted +service; but the fact is that the Government has, on the contrary, +manifested a disposition of a totally opposite character. The House must +be very cautious not to adopt the glossed and burnished statement of the +right hon. Gentleman as exhibiting the real state of things in India; +for it is essential, in the highest degree, that in the present critical +juncture of things the whole truth should be known. The right hon. +Baronet, towards the close of his speech, has gone into the subject of +education, and not so much into that of ecclesiastical establishments in +India, but somewhat into that of religion. Now, with reference to +education, so far as can be gathered from the Returns before the House-- +I have sought to obtain Returns of a more specific character, but to no +purpose, having received the usual answer in these matters, that there +was no time for preparing them--but from the Returns we have before us I +find that while the Government has overthrown almost entirely that +native education which had subsisted throughout the country so +universally that a schoolmaster was as regular a feature in every +village as the 'potail' or head man, it has done next to nothing to +supply the deficiency which has been created, or to substitute a better +system. Out of a population of 100,000,000 natives we instruct but +25,000 children; out of a gross revenue of 29,000,000_l_. sterling, +extracted from that population, we spend but 66,000_l_. in their +education. In India, let it be borne in mind, the people are not in the +position with regard to providing for their own education which the +people of this country enjoy, and the education which they have provided +themselves with, the Government has taken from them, supplying no +adequate system in its place. The people of India are in a state of +poverty, and of decay, unexampled in the annals of the country under +their native rulers. From their poverty the Government wrings a gross +revenue of more than 29,000,000_l_. sterling, and out of that +29,000,000_l_., return to them 66,000_l_. per annum for the +purposes of education! + +What is our ecclesiastical establishment in India? Three bishops and a +proportionate number of clergy, costing no less than 101,000_l_. a- +year for the sole use of between 50,000 and 60,000 Europeans, nearly +one-half of whom, moreover--taking the army--are Roman Catholics. I +might add, that in India, the Government showed the same discrimination +of which the noble Member for the City of London (Lord J. Russell) +seemed to approve so much the other night, for, although they give to +one Protestant bishop 4,000_l_. a-year, with 1,2OO_l_. a-year +more for expenses and a ship at his disposal, and to two other +Protestant bishops between 2,000_l_. and 3,000_l_. a-year, +they give to the Roman Catholic bishop a paltry sum of about +250_l_. a-year. The East India Company are not, perhaps, herein so +much to blame, seeing that they do but follow the example of what is +going on in this country. + +There is another question--perhaps the most important of all--the +question of Indian finance, which, somehow or other, the right hon. +Baronet has got over in so very lame a manner, in so particularly +confused a style, that had I not known something of the matter +previously, I should have learnt very little from the right hon. +Baronet's statement. A former Director of the East India Company has, on +this subject, issued a book--of course, in defence of the Company. Here +are two or three facts extracted from this book:--From 1835 to 1851-- +sixteen years--the entire net taxation of India has produced +340,756,000_l_.; the expenditure on the Government in the same +period having been 341,676,000_l_.--an amount somewhat in excess of +the revenue. During these sixteen years there has been also expended on +public works of all kinds 5,000,000_l_., and there has been paid, +in dividends, to the proprietors of East India stock, +10,080,000_l_.; making a total expenditure of 356,756,000_l_. +In the same period the Company has contracted loans to the extent of +16,000,000_l_.; every farthing of which has gone to improvements, +the stated extent of which I believe to have been greatly magnified, and +to pay the amiable ladies and gentlemen whose votes return to +Leadenhall-street those immaculate Directors whom the Government seems +so desirous of cherishing. All expenditure for improvements of every +kind, and all dividends to stockholders, have been paid from loans +contracted during the last sixteen years; so that the whole revenue has +been expended, leaving nothing for improvements and nothing for the +Company's dividends. This seems to me a formidable, an alarming state of +things. + +The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the Indian debt coming upon the people +of this country, expressing the opinion that if the Government of India +were transferred to the Crown--which assuredly it ought to be--the debt +ought so to be transferred. The debt is not in the present Budget, +indeed, but it will certainly come before the House. I have already +referred to a memorable speech of the late Sir Robert Peel on this +subject, in 1842, just after he had come into office, and when, finding +the country left by the Whigs with an Exchequer peculiarly discouraging +to a Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was about to propose that temporary +income-tax which has since become permanent. He said, after referring to +the affairs of Canada and China-- + + 'For the purpose of bringing before the House a full and complete + view of our financial position, as I promised to do, I feel it to + be my duty to refer to a subject which has of late occupied + little attention in the House, but which I think might, with + advantage to the public, have attracted more of their regard--I + refer to the state of Indian finance, a subject which formerly + used to be thought not unworthy of the consideration of this + House. I am quite aware that there may appear to be no direct and + immediate connexion between the finances of India and those of + this country; but that would be a superficial view of our + relations with India which should omit the consideration of this + subject. Depend upon it, if the credit of India should become + disordered, if some great exertion should become necessary, then + the credit of England must be brought forward to its support, and + the collateral and indirect effect of disorders in Indian + finances would be felt extensively in this country. Sir, I am + sorry to say that Indian finance offers no consolation for the + state of finance in this country. I hold in my hand an account of + the finances of India, which I have every reason to believe is a + correct one. It is made up one month later than our own accounts-- + to the 5th of May. It states the gross revenue of India, with the + charges on it; the interest of the debt; the surplus revenue, and + the charges paid on it in England; and there are two columns + which contain the net surplus and the net deficit. In the year + ending May, 1836, there was a surplus of 1,520,000_l_. from + the Indian revenue. In the year ending the 5th of May, 1837, + there was a surplus of 1,100,000_l_., which was reduced + rapidly in the year ending May, 1838, to one of 620,000_l_. + In the year ending the 5th of May, 1839, the surplus fell to + 29,000_l_.; in the year ending the 5th of May, 1840, the + balance of the account changed, and so far from there being any + surplus, the deficit on the Indian revenue was 2,414,000_l_. + I am afraid I cannot calculate the deficit for the year ending + May, 1841, though it depends at present partly on estimate, at + much less than 2,334,000_l_. The House, then, will bear in + mind, that in fulfilment of the duty I have undertaken, I present + to them the deficit in this country for the current year to the + amount of 2,350,000_l_., with a certain prospect of a + deficit for the next year to the amount of at least + 2,470,000_l_., independently of the increase to be expected + on account of China and Affghanistan, and that in India, that + great portion of our Empire, I show a deficit on the two last + years which will probably not be less than 4,700,000_l_.'-- + [3 _Hansard_, lxi. 428-9.] + +Now, this deficit has in the period since 1842 been growing every year, +with the exception of two years, when, from accidental and precarious +circumstances, a surplus of between 300,000_l_. and +400,000_l_. was made out. The course of deficit has now, however, +been resumed, and there is probably no one in this House or in the +country but the right hon. President of the Board of Control, who does +not perceive that the Burmese war will materially aggravate the amount +of that deficit. Where is this to end? When the Board of Control was +first established, the debt was 8,000,000_l_.; in 1825 it was +25,000,000_l_.; in 1829 it was 34,000,000_l_.; in 1836, +37,000,000_l_.; in 1843, 36,000,000_l_.; in 1849, +44,000,000_l_.; in 1853, 47,000,000_l_.; and now, including +the bond debt at home and the debt in India, it is about +51,000,000_l_. The military expenditure of India has increased +since the last Charter Act from 8,000,000_l_. a-year to more than +12,000,000_l_. a-year, and now forms no less than 56 per cent. of +the whole expenditure. I believe that if the Indian Government would +endeavour to improve the condition of the people by attending to +economic principles, by establishing better means of communication, by +promoting irrigation, and by affording facilities for education, the +Indian population would at once be convinced that there was a feeling of +sympathy entertained towards them on the part of their rulers and +conquerors, and the idea--which I believe prevails very extensively-- +that we held India more with the object of extorting taxation than of +benefiting the people, would speedily be removed. + +When I come to consider the amount of the revenue, and its pressure upon +the population, I think I can show a state of things existing in India +which cannot be paralleled in any other country in the world. The +evidence of Mr. Davies and Mr. Stewart, collectors in Guzerat, shows +that in that district the actual taxation varies from 60 to 90 per cent. +upon the gross produce of the soil. Mr. Campbell calculates the gross +revenue of India at about 27,000,000_l_.; and Mr. Kaye, a recent +authority, who, I presume, wrote his book at the India House, states +that the gross revenue was 29,000,000_l_. The land revenue is +12,000,000_l_. or 13,000,000_l_.; and although the Government +took, or intended to take, all the rent, it is not half enough for them, +and they are obliged to take as much more from other sources in order to +enable them to maintain their establishments. I mention this fact to +show the enormous expense of the Indian Government, and the +impossibility of avoiding a great and dangerous financial crisis unless +some alteration is made in the present system. Mr. Campbell, speaking of +the Indian revenues under the Mogul Princes, says-- + + 'The value of food, labour, &c., seems to have been much the same + as now--that is, infinitely cheaper than in Europe; and, + certainly, in comparison to the price of labour and all articles + of consumption, the revenue of the Moguls must have been more + effective than that of any modern State--I mean that it enabled + them to command more men and luxuries, and to have a greater + surplus.' + +I would ask the House to imagine that all steam engines, and all +applications of mechanical power, were banished from this country; that +we were utterly dependent upon mere manual labour. What would you think +if the Chancellor of the Exchequer, under such circumstances, +endeavoured to levy the same taxation which is now borne by the country? +From one end of India to the other, with very trifling exceptions, there +is no such thing as a steam engine; but this poor population, without a +steam engine, without anything like first-rate tools, are called upon to +bear, I will venture to say, the very heaviest taxation under which any +people ever suffered with the same means of paying it. Yet the whole of +this money, raised from so poor a population, which would in India buy +four times as much labour, and four times as much of the productions of +the country, as it would obtain in England, is not enough to keep up the +establishments of the Government; for during the last sixteen years the +Indian Government has borrowed 16,000,000_l_. to pay the dividends +to the proprietors in England. + +The opium question has been alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir +C. Wood). I must say I do not know any one connected with China, or at +all acquainted with the subject, who is not of opinion that the opium +revenue is very near its termination. Even the favourite authority of +the President of the Board of Control, Mr. Marshman, declared his +opinion that India was on the verge of a great financial crisis. Whether +the present Chinese Government retains its power, or the insurgents be +successful and a new dynasty be established, the scruple against the +importation of opium into China from India having once been removed, the +transition to the growth of the drug in China is very easy, and there +can scarcely be a doubt that opium will soon be as extensively +cultivated in that country as ever it was in India. This might very soon +produce a loss of 3,000,000_l_. of revenue to the East India Company. +There has already been an annual deficit in the revenues of the East +India Company for the last fifteen years; they have to bear the cost of +a Burmese war; and the annexation of new territory will only bring upon +them an increased charge, for Pegu will probably never repay its +expenses, and yet they have the prospect of losing 3,000,000_l_. of +their revenue within a very few years. Now, what would the Chancellor of +the Exchequer say if the President of the Board of Control came to that +House and proposed to raise a loan upon the credit of this country for +the purpose of maintaining our territory in India? Would it not be +better at once to ascertain whether the principles and policy on which +we have hitherto proceeded have not been faulty? Should we not rather +endeavour to reduce our expenditure, to employ cheaper labour, to +increase the means of communication in India, which would enable us to +dispense with a portion of our troops, and to make it a rule that the +Governor-General should have more honour when he came home, for not +having extended by an acre the territory of our Indian possessions, than +if he had added a province or a kingdom to them? + +The plan proposed by the President of the Board of Control appears to me +very closely to resemble that which exists at present. The result, so +far as regards the real question, about which the public are most +interested, is this, that the twenty-four gentlemen who are directors of +the East India Company are, by a process of self-immolation, to be +reduced to fifteen. I think this reduction will be one of the most +affecting scenes in the history of the Government of India. As the East +India Company keep a writer to record their history, I hope they also +keep an artist to give us an historical painting of this great event. +There we shall see the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles), the hon. +Member for Honiton (Sir J. W. Hogg), one of the hon. Members for the +City of London, and the other directors, meeting together, and looking +much like shipwrecked men in a boat casting lots who should be thrown +overboard. To the fifteen directors who are to remain, three others are +to be added, and the result will be that, instead of having twenty-four +gentlemen sitting in Leadenhall-street, to manage the affairs in India, +there will be eighteen. The present constituency is so bad that nothing +the President of the Board of Control can do can make it worse; but as +that right hon. Gentleman finds it impossible to make it better, he lets +the constituency remain as it was. The right hon. Baronet proposes that +the Crown should appoint six members of the Board who have been at least +ten years in India, so that there may at all events be that number of +gentlemen at the Board lit for the responsible office in which they are +placed. But this is an admission that the remaining twelve members of +the Board are not fit for their office. They have two ingredients--the +one wholesome, the other poisonous; but there are two drops of poison to +one of wholesome nutriment. The right hon. Gentleman mixes them +together, and then wants Parliament and the country to believe that he +has proposed a great measure. + +As regards the right hon. Gentleman's speech, I must say that I have +never heard so great a one--I mean as to length--where the result, so +far as the real thing about which people wish to know, was so little. +The twelve gentlemen appointed by the present constituency are degraded +already by the right hon. Gentleman's declaration, that they are not +elected in a satisfactory manner, and that they are not fit persons for +the government of India. They are, in fact, bankers and brewers, and men +of all sorts, in the City of London, who find it their interest to get +into the Court of Directors--no matter by what channel--because it adds +to the business of their bank, or whatever else may be the undertaking +in which they are engaged; but who have no special qualification for the +government of India. If the Government thinks it right to have six good +directors, let them abolish the twelve bad ones. Then it appears that +the Secret Department is to be retained. Speaking of this, Mr. Kaye, +quoting the authority of Mr. Tucker, a distinguished director, said it +was no more than a secretary and a seal. Next comes a most extraordinary +proposition. Hitherto the directors have undergone all the hardship of +governing India for 300_l_. a-year; but the right hon. Gentleman +now proposes to raise their wages by 4_l_. per week each. I must +say, that if this body is to be salaried at all, and is not to have the +profit of the patronage enjoyed by the present Government, nothing can +be worse economy than this, with a view to obtaining a body which shall +command the respect, and have the amount of influence, requisite for +conducting the Government of India. Sixteen of the directors, receiving +500_l_. a-year each--why, they would have to pay their clerks much +more!--and the chairman and the deputy-chairman 1,000_l_. a-year +each. The whole of the right hon. Gentleman's scheme seems to bear the +marks of--I am almost afraid to say what; but he seems to have tried to +please every one in framing his great proposition, and at last has +landed the House in a sort of half measure, which neither the East India +Company nor India wants. If I had made a speech such as the right hon. +Gentleman has delivered, and believed what he said, I would leave the +Indian Government as it is; but if I thought it necessary to alter the +Government, I would do so on principle essentially. The right hon. +Gentleman is afraid of bringing the Government of India under the +authority of the Crown. What, I should like to know, would have been +done if India had been conquered by the troops of the Crown? We should +then never have sent some thirty men into a bye-street of London to +distribute patronage and govern a great country. The Government of India +would then have been made a department of the Government, with a Council +and a Minister of State. But it appears that the old system of hocus- +pocus is still to be carried on. + +This is no question of Manchester against Essex--of town against +country--of Church against Nonconformity. It is a question in which we +all have an interest, and in which our children may be more deeply +interested than we are ourselves. Should anything go wrong with the +finances, we must bear the burden; or should the people of India by our +treatment be goaded into insurrection, we must reconquer the country, or +be ignominiously driven out of it. I will not be a party to a state of +things which might lead to the writing of a narrative like this on the +history of our relations with that empire. Let the House utterly +disregard the predictions of mischief likely to result from such a +change in the Government of India as that which I advocate. When the +trade was thrown open, and the Company was deprived of the monopoly of +carrying, they said the Chinese would poison the tea. There is nothing +too outrageous or ridiculous for the Company to say in order to prevent +the Legislature from placing affairs on a more honest footing. I object +to the Bill, because--as the right hon. Gentleman admitted--it +maintains a double Government. In the unstatesmanlike course which the +right hon. Gentleman is pursuing, he will, no doubt, be especially +backed by the noble Lord the Member for London. I only wish that some of +the younger blood in the Cabinet might have had their way upon this +question. Nothing can induce me to believe, after the evidence which is +before the public, that this measure has the approbation of an united +Cabinet. It is not possible that thirteen sensible gentlemen, who have +any pretensions to form a Cabinet, could agree to a measure of this +nature. I am more anxious than I can express that Parliament should +legislate rightly in this matter. Let us act so at this juncture that it +may be said of us hereafter--that whatever crimes England originally +committed in conquering India, she at least made the best of her +position by governing the country as wisely as possible, and left the +records and traces of a humane and liberal sway. + +I recollect having heard the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton +(Viscount Palmerston) deliver in this House one of the best speeches I +ever listened to. On that occasion the noble Lord gloried in the proud +name of England, and, pointing to the security with which an Englishman +might travel abroad, he triumphed in the idea that his countrymen might +exclaim, in the spirit of the ancient Roman, _Civis Romanus sum_. +Let us not resemble the Romans merely in our national privileges and +personal security. The Romans were great conquerors, but where they +conquered, they governed wisely. The nations they conquered were +impressed so indelibly with the intellectual character of their masters, +that, after fourteen centuries of decadence, the traces of civilisation +are still distinguishable. Why should not we act a similar part in +India? There never was a more docile people, never a more tractable +nation. The opportunity is present, and the power is not wanting. Let us +abandon the policy of aggression, and confine ourselves to a territory +ten times the size of France, with a population four times as numerous +as that of the United Kingdom. Surely that is enough to satisfy the most +gluttonous appetite for glory and supremacy. Educate the people of +India, govern them wisely, and gradually the distinctions of caste will +disappear, and they will look upon us rather as benefactors than as +conquerors. And if we desire to see Christianity, in some form, +professed in that country, we shall sooner attain our object by setting +the example of a high-toned Christian morality, than by any other means +we can employ. + + * * * * * + +INDIA + +II. + + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 24, 1858. + +_From Hansard_. +[After the suppression of the Indian mutiny, Lord Palmerston's +Government determined to introduce a Bill the object of which was to +place the possessions of the East India Company under the direct +authority of the Crown. This Bill was introduced by Lord Palmerston on +February 12. But the Government fell a few days afterwards, on the +Conspiracy Bill, and Lord Palmerston's Bill was withdrawn. On March 26 +the new Government introduced their own Bill, which was known as the +India Bill No. 2. The chief peculiarity of this Bill was that five +members in the proposed council of eighteen should be chosen by the +constituencies of the following cities:--London, Manchester, Liverpool, +Glasgow, and Belfast. The scheme was unpopular, and Lord Russell +proposed that it should be withdrawn, and that resolutions should be +passed in a Committee of the whole House, the acceptance of which might +prove a guide to the proceedings of the Government. The suggestion was +accepted by Mr. Disraeli, and in consequence India Bill No. 3 was +brought in, and read a second time on June 24.] + +I do not rise for the purpose of opposing the second reading of this +Bill--on the contrary, if any hon. Member thinks proper to divide the +House upon it, I shall vote with the noble Lord. I must say, however, +that there are many clauses in the Bill to which I entertain serious +objections. Some of them will, I hope, be amended as the Bill passes +through Committee; but if that is not the case, I can only hope that, as +the Bill of 1853 is abandoned in 1858, within the next five years the +House of Commons will take some further steps with regard to this +question, with the view of simplifying the Government of India as +carried on in England. I wish to take this opportunity of making some +observations upon the general question of Indian government, which it +might have been out of place to have made during the discussion of the +various Resolutions which have been agreed to by the House. + +I think it must have struck every hon. Member that, while two +Governments have proposed great changes with regard to the government of +India, no good case has really been made out for such changes in the +speeches of the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman by whom the two +India Bills have been introduced. That opinion, I know, will meet with a +response from two or three hon. Gentlemen on this (the Opposition) side +of the House. It occurred to me when the noble Lord at the head of the +late Government (Viscount Palmerston) introduced his Bill--and I made +the observation when the present Chancellor of the Exchequer brought +forward his measure--that if the House knew no more of the question than +they learned from the speeches of the Ministers, they could not form any +clear notion why it was proposed to overthrow the East India Company. +The hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles) has expressed a similar +opinion several times during the progress of these discussions. The +right hon. Member for Carlisle (Sir James Graham) has also said that the +East India Company was being dealt with in a manner in which animals +intended for sacrifice were treated in Eastern countries and in ancient +times,--they were decked with garlands when they were led out for +immolation. That is true; but it does not therefore follow that the +House is not quite right in the course it is taking. It must be clear +that the moment the House of Commons met this Session there was only one +course which the then Government could adopt with reference to this +question. A feeling existed throughout the country--I believe I may say +it was universal--that for a long time past the government of India had +not been a good government; that grave errors--if not grievous crimes-- +had been committed in that country. I think the conscience of the nation +had been touched on this question, and they came by a leap, as it were-- +by an irrepressible instinct--to the conclusion that the East India +Company must be abolished, and that another and, as the nation hoped, a +better government should be established for that country. There was a +general impression, arising from past discussion in Parliament, that the +industry of the people of India had been grievously neglected; that +there was great reason for complaint with respect to the administration +of justice; and that with regard to the wars entered into by the Indian +Government, there was much of which the people of England had reason to +be ashamed. + +It has been said by some that these faults are to be attributed to the +Board of Control; but I have never defended the Board of Control. I +believe everything the East India Company has said of the Board of +Control--to its discredit; and I believe that everything the Board of +Control has said to the discredit of the East India Company to be +perfectly true. There was also a general impression that the expenditure +of the East India Government was excessive; and that it had been proved +before more than one Committee that the taxes imposed upon the people of +India were onerous to the last degree. These subjects were discussed in +1853, at which time, in my opinion, the change now proposed ought to +have been effected. Subsequently the calamitous events of 1857 and 1858 +occurred; and the nation came at once to the conclusion--a conclusion +which I think no disinterested person could resist--that it was +impossible that India and its vast population could any longer be +retained under the form of government which has existed up to this +period. If, then, a change was inevitable, the question was how it +should be accomplished and what should be done. I think it is quite +clear that the course the noble Lord has pursued is right--namely, that +of insisting that during this present Session, and without delay, the +foundation of all reform in the government of India should be commenced +at home, because we cannot take a single step in the direction of any +real and permanent improvement in the Indian Government until we have +reformed what I may call the basis of that Government by changes to be +effected in this country. + +What, then, is the change which is proposed, and which ought to be made? +For my own part, in considering these questions, I cannot altogether +approve the Bill now before the House. What we want with regard to the +government of India is that which in common conversation is called 'a +little more daylight.' We want more simplicity and more responsibility. +I objected to the scheme originally proposed by the Chancellor of the +Exchequer because it did not provide these requisites; that scheme so +closely resembled the system we were about to overthrow that I could not +bring myself to regard it favourably. In considering the subject before +Parliament met, I asked myself this question:--'Suppose there had never +been an East India Company or any such corporation,--suppose India had +been conquered by the forces of the Crown, commanded by generals acting +under the authority of the Crown,--how should we then have proposed to +govern distant dominions of vast extent, and with a population that +could scarcely be counted?' I believe such a system of government as has +hitherto existed would never have been established; and if such a system +had not existed I am convinced that no Minister would have proposed the +plan now submitted to the House. + +I think the government would have been placed in the hands of a +Secretary of State, with his secretaries, clerks, and staffs of +officers, or of a small Board, so small as to prevent responsibility +from being diffused and divided, if not actually destroyed. I suspect +that the only reason why the Country or Parliament can be disposed to +approve the large Council now proposed is, that they have seen something +like a Council heretofore, formerly of twenty-four, and subsequently of +eighteen members, and I believe there is something like timidity on the +part of the House, and probably on the part of the Government, which +hinders them from making so great a change as I have suggested to the +simple plan which would probably have existed had no such body as the +East India Company ever been established. I am willing to admit candidly +that if the government of India at home should be so greatly simplified +it will be necessary that very important changes should be made in the +government in India. I agree with the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) that the +representatives of the Crown in India must have power as well as +responsibility; that they should be enabled to deal with emergencies, +and to settle the hundred or the thousand questions that must arise +among 100,000,000 of people, without sending 10,000 miles to this +country to ask questions which ought to be settled at once by some +competent authority on the spot. + +There are two modes of governing India, and the hon. Member for +Leominster (Mr. Willoughby), who has been a very distinguished servant +of the East India Company, has publicly expressed his views upon this +question. I have been very much struck with a note attached to the +published report of his speech, referring to the multifarious duties +discharged by the Directors of the East India Company. That note states +that-- + + 'A despatch may be received, containing 60, or 100, or 200 cases; + and the despatch, in itself voluminous, is rendered more so by + collections attached to it, containing copies of all former + correspondence on the subject or subjects, and of all letters + written thereon by various local officers, and all papers + relating thereto. There has not long since been in the Revenue + Department a despatch with 16,263 pages of collections. In 1845 + there was one in the same Department with 46,000 pages, and it + was stated that Mr. Canning, some years since in the House of + Commons, mentioned a military despatch to which were attached + 13,511 pages of collections.' + +The hon. Gentleman did not say in his speech that anybody at the India +House ever read all these things. It was quite dear that if the +Directors were to pretend to go through a waggon-load of documents +coming to Leadenhall-street every year it must be only a pretence, and +if they want to persuade the House that they give attention to only one- +tenth part of these papers they must think the House more credulous than +it is in matters of this kind. That is one mode of governing India. It +is the mode which has been adopted and the mode which has failed. If we +are to have the details settled here, I am perfectly certain we can have +no good government in India. I have alluded on a former occasion to a +matter which occurred in a Committee upstairs. A gentleman who was +examined stated that he had undertaken to brew a wholesome beer, and +quite as good as that exported for the supply of the troops, somewhere +in the Presidency of Madras, for one-sixth of the price paid by +Government for that exported to India from England; that the experiment +was completely successful; that the memorandum or record with regard to +it was sent home, no doubt forming part of the thousands of pages to +which reference has been made; and that it was buried in the heap in +which it came, because for years nothing was heard of a proposition +which would have saved the Government a very large amount annually and +opened a new industry to the population and capital of India. I believe +this system of government is one of delay and disappointment--one, +actually, of impossibility--one which can by no means form a complete +theory of government as held by any persons in the House; and that the +other, the simpler system, which I wish the House to undertake, would be +one of action, progress, and results, with regard to India, such as we +have never yet seen and never can see until there is a complete +simplification of the Indian Government in this country. + +I come now to the question--and it is for this question that I have +wished principally to address the House--if at any time we obtain the +simplicity which I contend for with regard to the government at home, +what changes will it be desirable to make in the government in India? +And I would make one observation at this point, that in all the +statements and arguments which I hope to use, I beg the House to believe +that I use them with the greatest possible deference, with the feeling +that this is a question upon which no man is at all entitled to +dogmatize, that it is a vast question which we all look at as one we are +scarcely capable of handling and determining. I submit my views to the +House because I have considered the subject more or less for many years, +and I believe I am actuated by the simple and honest desire of +contributing something to the information and knowledge of Parliament +with regard to its duty upon this great question. + +What is it we have to complain of in India? What is it that the people +of India, if they spoke by my mouth, have to complain of? They would +tell the House that, as a rule, throughout almost all the Presidencies, +and throughout those Presidencies most which have been longest under +British rule, the cultivators of the soil, the great body of the +population of India, are in a condition of great impoverishment, of +great dejection, and of great suffering. I have, on former occasions, +quoted to the House the report of a Committee which I obtained ten years +ago, upon which sat several members of the Court of Directors; and they +all agreed to report as much as I have now stated to the House--the +Report being confined chiefly to the Presidencies of Bombay and Madras. +If I were now submitting the case of the population of India I would say +that the taxes of India are more onerous and oppressive than the taxes +of any other country in the world. I think I could demonstrate that +proposition to the House. I would show that industry is neglected by the +Government to a greater extent probably than is the case in any other +country in the world which has been for any length of time under what is +termed a civilized and Christian government. I should be able to show +from the notes and memoranda of eminent men in India, of the Governor of +Bengal, Mr. Halliday, for example, that there is not and never has been +in any country pretending to be civilized, a condition of things to be +compared with that which exists under the police administration of the +province of Bengal. With regard to the courts of justice I may say the +same thing. I could quote passages from books written in favour of the +Company with all the bias which the strongest friends of the Company can +have, in which the writers declare that, precisely in proportion as +English courts of justice have extended, have perjury and all the evils +which perjury introduces into the administration of justice prevailed +throughout the Presidencies of India. With regard to public works, if I +were speaking for the Natives of India, I would state this fact, that in +a single English county there are more roads--more travelable roads-- +than are to be found in the whole of India; and I would say also that +the single city of Manchester, in the supply of its inhabitants with the +single article of water, has spent a larger sum of money than the East +India Company has spent in the fourteen years from 1834 to 1848 in +public works of every kind throughout the whole of its vast dominions. I +would say that the real activity of the Indian Government has been an +activity of conquest and annexation--of conquest and annexation which +after a time has led to a fearful catastrophe which has enforced on the +House an attention to the question of India, which but for that +catastrophe I fear the House would not have given it. + +If there were another charge to be made against the past Government of +India, it would be with regard to the state of its finances. Where was +there a bad Government whose finances were in good order? Where was +there a really good Government whose finances were in bad order? Is +there a better test in the long run of the condition of a people and the +merits of a Government than the state of the finances? And yet not in +our own time, but going back through all the pages of Mill or of any +other History of India we find the normal condition of the finances of +India has been that of deficit and bankruptcy. I maintain that if that +be so, the Government is a bad Government. It has cost more to govern +India than the Government has been able to extract from the population +of India. The Government has not been scrupulous as to the amount of +taxes or the mode in which they have been levied; but still, to carry on +the government of India according to the system which has heretofore +prevailed, more has been required than the Government has been able to +extract by any system of taxation known to them from the population over +which they have ruled. It has cost more than 30,000,000_l_. a-year +to govern India, and the gross revenue being somewhere about +30,000,000_l_., and there being a deficit, the deficit has had to +be made up by loans. The Government has obtained all they could from the +population; it is not enough, and they have had to borrow from the +population and from Europeans at a high rate of interest to make up the +sum which has been found to be necessary. They have a debt of +60,000,000_l_.; and it is continually increasing; they always have +a loan open; and while their debt is increasing their credit has been +falling, because they have not treated their creditors very honourably +on one or two occasions, and chiefly, of course, on account of the +calamities which have recently happened in India. There is one point +with regard to taxation which I wish to explain to the House, and I hope +that, in the reforms to which the noble Lord is looking forward, it will +not be overlooked. I have said that the gross revenue is +30,000,000_l_. Exclusive of the opium revenue, which is not, +strictly speaking, and hardly at all, a tax upon the people, I set down +the taxation of the country at something like 25,000,000_l_. Hon. +Gentlemen must not compare 25,000,000_l_. of taxation in India with +60,000,000_l_. of taxation in England. They must bear in mind that +in India they could have twelve days' labour of a man for the same sum +in silver or gold which they have to pay for one day's labour of a man +in England; that if, for example, this _l_.25,000,000 were expended +in purchasing labour, that sum would purchase twelve times as much in +India as in England--that is to say, that the 25,000,000_l_. would +purchase as many days' labour in India as 300,000,000_l_. would +purchase in England. [An Hon. Member: 'How much is the labour worth?'] +That is precisely what I am coming to. If the labour of a man is only +worth 2_d_. a-day, they could not expect as much revenue from him +as if it were 2_s_. a-day. That is just the point to which I wish +the hon. Gentleman would turn his attention. We have in England a +population which, for the sake of argument, I will call 30,000,000. We +have in India a population of 150,000,000. Therefore, the population of +India is five times as great as the population of England. We raise in +India, reckoning by the value of labour, taxation equivalent to +300,000,000_l_., which is five times the English revenue. Some one +may probably say, therefore, that the taxation in India and in England +appears to be about the same, and no great injury is done. But it must +be borne in mind that in England we have an incalculable power of steam, +of machinery, of modes of transit, roads, canals, railways, and +everything which capital and human invention can bring to help the +industry of the people; while in India there is nothing of the kind. In +India there is scarcely a decent road, the rivers are not bridged, there +are comparatively no steam engines, and none of those aids to industry +that meet us at every step in Great Britain and Ireland. Suppose steam- +engines, machinery, and modes of transit abolished in England, how much +revenue would the Chancellor of the Exchequer obtain from the people of +England? Instead of 60,000,000_l_. a-year, would he get +10,000,000_l_.? I doubt it very much. If the House will follow out +the argument, they will come to the conclusion that the taxes of the +people of India are oppressive to the last degree, and that the +Government which has thus taxed them can be tolerated no longer, and +must be put an end to at once and for ever. I wish to say something +about the manner in which these great expenses are incurred. The +extravagance of the East India Government is notorious to all. I believe +there never was any other service under the sun paid at so high a rate +as the exclusive Civil Service of the East India Company. Clergymen and +missionaries can be got to go out to India for a moderate sum--private +soldiers and officers of the army go out for a moderate remuneration-- +merchants are content to live in the cities of India for a percentage or +profit not greatly exceeding the ordinary profits of commerce. But the +Civil Service, because it is bound up with those who were raised by it +and who dispense the patronage of India, receive a rate of payment which +would be incredible if we did not know it to be true, and which, knowing +it to be true, we must admit to be monstrous. The East India Government +scatters salaries about at Bombay, Calcutta, Madras, Agra, Lahore, and +half a dozen other cities, which are up to the mark of those of the +Prime Minister and Secretaries of State in this country. These salaries +are framed upon the theory that India is a mine of inexhaustible wealth, +although no one has found it to be so but the members of the Civil +Service of the East India Company. The policy of the Government is at +the bottom of the constant deficit. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has +twice recently declared that expenditure depends upon policy. That is as +true in India as in England, and it is the policy that has been pursued +there which renders the revenue liable to this constantly recurring +deficit. + +I have come to the conclusion, which many hon. Members probably share +with me, that the edifice we have reared in India is too vast. There are +few men now, and least of all those connected with the East India +Company, who, looking back to the policy that has been pursued, will not +be willing to admit that it has not been judicious but hazardous--that +territories have been annexed that had better have been left +independent, and that wars have been undertaken which were as needless +as they were altogether unjustifiable. The immense empire that has been +conquered is too vast for management, its base is in decay, and during +the last twelve months it has appeared to be tottering to its fall. Who +or what is the instrument--the Cabinet, the Government, or the person-- +by whom this evil policy is carried on? + +The greatest officer in India is the Governor-General. He is the ruler +of about one-fifth--certainly more than one-sixth--of the human race. +The Emperors of France and Russia are but the governors of provinces +compared with the power, the dignity, and the high estate of the +Governor-General of India. Now, over this officer, almost no real +control is exercised. If I were to appeal to the two hon. Gentlemen who +have frequently addressed the House during these debates (Colonel Sykes +and Mr. Willoughby), they would probably admit that the Governor-General +of India is an officer of such high position that scarcely any control +can be exercised over him either in India or in England. Take the case +of the Marquess of Dalhousie for example. I am not about to make an +attack upon him, for the occasion is too solemn for personal +controversies. But the annexation of Sattara, of the Punjab, of Nagpore, +and of Oude occurred under his rule. I will not go into the case of +Sattara; but one of its Princes, and one of the most magnanimous Princes +that India ever produced, suffered and died most unjustly in exile, +either through the mistakes or the crimes of the Government of India. +This, however, was not done under the Government of Lord Dalhousie. As +to the annexation of Nagpore, the House has never heard anything about +it to this hour. There has been no message from the Crown or statement +of the Government relative to that annexation. Hon. Members have indeed +heard from India that the dresses and wardrobes of the ladies of its +Court have been exposed to sale, like a bankrupt's stock, in the +haberdashers' shops of Calcutta--a thing likely to incense and horrify +the people of India who witnessed it. + +Take, again, the case of the Burmese war. The Governor-General entered +into it, and annexed the province of Pegu, and to this day there has +been no treaty with the King of Burmah. If that case had been brought +before the House, it is impossible that the war with Burmah could have +been entered upon. I do not believe that there is one man in England +who, knowing the facts, would say that this war was just or necessary in +any sense. The Governor-General has an army of 300,000 men under his +command; he is a long way from home; he is highly connected with the +governing classes at home; there are certain reasons that make war +palatable to large classes in India; and he is so powerful that he +enters into these great military operations almost uncontrolled by the +opinion of the Parliament and people of England. He may commit any +amount of blunders or crimes against the moral law, and he will still +come home loaded with dignities and in the enjoyment of pensions. Does +it not become the power and character of this House to examine narrowly +the origin of the misfortunes and disgraces of the grave catastrophe +which has just occurred? The place of the Governor-General is too high-- +his power is too great--and I believe that this particular office and +officer are very much responsible--of course under the Government at +home--for the disasters that have taken place. + +Only think of a Governor-General of India writing to an Indian Prince, +the ruler over many millions of men in the heart of India, 'Remember you +are but as the dust under my feet' Passages like these are left out of +despatches, when laid on the table of the House of Commons:--it would +not do for the Parliament or the Crown, or the people of England to know +that their officer addressed language like this to a Native Prince. The +fact is that a Governor-General of India, unless he be such a man as is +not found more than once in a century, is very liable to have his head +turned, and to form ambitious views, which are mainly to be gratified by +successful wars and the annexation of province after province during the +period of his rule. The 'Services' are always ready to help him in these +plans. I am not sure that the President of the Board of Control could +not give evidence on this subject, for I have heard something of what +happened when the noble Lord was in India. When the Burmese war broke +out, the noble Lord could no doubt tell the House that, without +inquiring into the quarrel or its causes, the press of India, which was +devoted to the 'Services', and the 'Services' themselves, united in +universal approbation of the course taken by the Governor-General. +Justice to Pegu and Burmah and the taxes to be raised for the support of +the war were forgotten, and nothing but visions of more territory and +more patronage floated before the eyes of the official English in India. +I contend that the power of the Governor-General is too great and the +office too high to be held by the subject of any power whatsoever, and +especially by any subject of the Queen of England. + +I should propose, if I were in a position to offer a scheme in the shape +of a Bill to the House, as an indispensable preliminary to the wise +government of India in future, such as would be creditable to Parliament +and advantageous to the people of India, that the office of Governor- +General should be abolished. Perhaps some hon. Gentlemen may think this +a very unreasonable proposition. Many people thought it unreasonable in +1853 when it was proposed to abolish the East India Company; but now +Parliament and the country believe it to be highly reasonable and +proper; and I am not sure that I could not bring before the House +reasons to convince them that the abolition of the office of Governor- +General is one of the most sensible and one of the most Conservative +proposals ever brought forward in connection with the Government of +India. I believe the duties of the Governor-General are far greater than +any human being can adequately fulfil. He has a power omnipotent to +crush anything that is good. If he so wishes, he can overbear and +overrule whatever is proposed for the welfare of India, while, as to +doing anything that is good, I could show that with regard to the vast +countries over which he rules, he is really almost powerless to effect +anything that those countries require. The hon. Gentleman behind me +(Colonel Sykes) has told us there are twenty nations in India, and that +there are twenty languages. Has it ever happened before that any one man +governed twenty nations, speaking twenty different languages, and bound +them together in one great and compact empire? [An hon. Member here made +an observation.] My hon. Friend mentions a great Parthian monarch. No +doubt there have been men strong in arm and in head, and of stern +resolution, who have kept great empires together during their lives; but +as soon as they went the way of all flesh, and descended, like the +meanest of their subjects, to the tomb, the provinces they had ruled +were divided into several States, and their great empires vanished. I +might ask the noble Lord below me (Lord John Russell) and the noble Lord +the Member for Tiverton (the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn has +not as yet experience on this point), whether, when they came to appoint +a Governor-General of India, they did not find it one of the most +serious and difficult duties they could be called on to perform? I do +not know at this moment, and I never have known, a man competent to +govern India; and if any man says he is competent, he sets himself up at +a much higher value than those who are acquainted with him are likely to +set him. Let the House look at the making of the laws for twenty nations +speaking twenty languages. Look at the regulations of the police for +twenty nations speaking twenty languages. Look at the question of public +works as it affects twenty nations speaking twenty languages; where +there is no municipal power and no combinations of any kind, such as +facilitate the construction of public works in this country. Inevitably +all those duties that devolve on every good government must be neglected +by the Governor-General of India, however wise, capable, and honest he +may be in the performance of his duties, because the duties laid upon +him are such as no man now living or who ever lived can or could +properly sustain. + +It may be asked what I would substitute for the Governor-Generalship of +India. Now, I do not propose to abolish the office of Governor-General +of India this Session. I am not proposing any clause in the Bill, and if +I were to propose one to carry out the idea I have expressed, I might be +answered by the argument, that a great part of the population of India +is in a state of anarchy, and that it would be most inconvenient, if not +dangerous, to abolish the office of Governor-General at such a time. I +do not mean to propose such a thing now; but I take this opportunity of +stating my views, in the hope that when we come to 1863, we may perhaps +be able to consider the question more in the light in which I am +endeavouring to present it to the House. I would propose that, instead +of having a Governor-General and an Indian empire, we should have +neither the one nor the other. I would propose that we should have +Presidencies, and not an Empire. If I were a Minister--which the House +will admit is a bold figure of speech--and if the House were to agree +with me--which is also an essential point--I would propose to have at +least five Presidencies in India, and I would have the governments of +those Presidencies perfectly equal in rank and in salary. The capitals +of those Presidencies would probably be Calcutta, Madras, Bombay, Agra, +and Lahore. I will take the Presidency of Madras as an illustration. +Madras has a population of some 20,000,000. We all know its position on +the map, and that it has the advantage of being more compact, +geographically speaking, than the other Presidencies. It has a Governor +and a Council. I would give to it a Governor and a Council still, but +would confine all their duties to the Presidency of Madras, and I would +treat it just as if Madras was the only portion of India connected with +this country. I would have its finance, its taxation, its justice, and +its police departments, as well as its public works and military +departments, precisely the same as if it were a State having no +connection with any other part of India, and recognized only as a +dependency of this country. I would propose that the Government of every +Presidency should correspond with the Secretary for India in England, +and that there should be telegraphic communications between all the +Presidencies in India, as I hope before long to see a telegraphic +communication between the office of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) and +every Presidency over which he presides. I shall no doubt be told that +there are insuperable difficulties in the way of such an arrangement, +and I shall be sure to hear of the military difficulty. Now, I do not +profess to be an authority on military affairs, but I know that military +men often make great mistakes. I would have the army divided, each +Presidency having its own army, just as now, care being taken to have +them kept distinct; and I see no danger of any confusion or +misunderstanding, when an emergency arose, in having them all brought +together to carry out the views of the Government. There is one question +which it is important to bear in mind, and that is with regard to the +Councils in India. I think every Governor of a Presidency should have an +assistant Council, but differently constituted from what they now are. I +would have an open Council. The noble Lord the Member for London used +some expressions the other night which I interpreted to mean that it was +necessary to maintain in all its exclusiveness the system of the Civil +Service in India. In that I entirely differ from the noble Lord. [Lord +J. Russell here indicated dissent.] The noble Lord corrects me in that +statement, and therefore I must have been mistaken. What we want is to +make the Governments of the Presidencies governments for the people of +the Presidencies; not governments for the civil servants of the Crown, +but for the non-official mercantile classes from England who settle +there, and for the 20,000,000 or 30,000,000 of Natives in each +Presidency. + +I should propose to do that which has been done with great advantage in +Ceylon. I have received a letter from an officer who has been in the +service of the East India Company, and who told me a fact which has +gratified me very much. He says-- + + 'At a public dinner at Colombo, in 1835, to the Governor, Sir + Wilmot Horton, at which I was present, the best speech of the + evening was made by a native nobleman of Candy, and a member of + Council. It was remarkable for its appropriate expression, its + sound sense, and the deliberation and ease that marked the + utterance of his feelings. There was no repetition or useless + phraseology or flattery, and it was admitted by all who heard him + to be the soundest and neatest speech of the night.' + +This was in Ceylon. It is not, of course, always the best man who can +make the best speech; but if what I have read could be said of a native +of Ceylon, it could be said of thousands in India. We need not go beyond +the walls of this House to find a head bronzed by an Indian sun equal to +the ablest heads of those who adorn its benches. And in every part of +India we all know that it would be an insult to the people of India to +say that it is not the same. There are thousands of persons in India who +are competent to take any position to which the Government may choose to +advance them. If the Governor of each Presidency were to have in his +Council some of the officials of his Government, some of the non- +official Europeans resident in the Presidency, and two or three at least +of the intelligent Natives of the Presidency in whom the people would +have some confidence, you would have begun that which will be of +inestimable value hereafter--you would have begun to unite the +government with the governed; and unless you do that, no government will +be safe, and any hurricane may overturn it or throw it into confusion. + +Now, suppose the Governor-General gone, the Presidencies established, +the Governors equal in rank and dignity, and their Councils constituted +in the manner I have indicated, is it not reasonable to suppose that the +delay which has hitherto been one of the greatest curses of your Indian +Government would be almost altogether avoided? Instead of a Governor- +General living in Calcutta, or at Simla, never travelling over the whole +of the country, and knowing very little about it, and that little only +through other official eyes, is it not reasonable to suppose that the +action of the Government would be more direct in all its duties and in +every department of its service than has been the case under the system +which has existed until now? Your administration of the law, marked by +so much disgrace, could never have lasted so long as it has done if the +Governors of your Presidencies had been independent Governors. So with +regard to matters of police, education, public works, and everything +that can stimulate industry, and so with regard to your system of +taxation. You would have in every Presidency a constant rivalry for +good. The Governor of Madras, when his term of office expired, would be +delighted to show that the people of that Presidency were contented, +that the whole Presidency was advancing in civilization, that roads and +all manner of useful public works were extending, that industry was +becoming more and more a habit of the people, and that the exports and +imports were constantly increasing. The Governors of Bombay and the rest +of the Presidencies would be animated by the same spirit, and so you +would have all over India, as I have said, a rivalry for good; you would +have placed a check on that malignant spirit of ambition which has +worked so much evil--you would have no Governor so great that you could +not control him, none who might make war when he pleased; war and +annexation would be greatly checked, if not entirely prevented; and I do +in my conscience believe you would have laid the foundation for a better +and more permanent form of government for India than has ever obtained +since it came under the rule of England. + +But how long does England propose to govern India? Nobody answers that +question, and nobody can answer it. Be it 50, or 100, or 500 years, does +any man with the smallest glimmering of common sense believe that so +great a country, with its twenty different nations and its twenty +languages, can ever be bound up and consolidated into one compact and +enduring empire? I believe such a thing to be utterly impossible. We +must fail in the attempt if ever we make it, and we are bound to look +into the future with reference to that point. The Presidency of Madras, +for instance, having its own Government, would in fifty years become one +compact State, and every part of the Presidency would look to the city +of Madras as its capital, and to the Government of Madras as its ruling +power. If that were to go on for a century or more, there would be five +or six Presidencies of India built up into so many compact States; and +if at any future period the sovereignty of England should be withdrawn, +we should leave so many Presidencies built up and firmly compacted +together, each able to support its own independence and its own +Government; and we should be able to say we had not left the country a +prey to that anarchy and discord which I believe to be inevitable if we +insist on holding those vast territories with the idea of building them +up into one great empire. But I am obliged to admit that mere machinery +is not sufficient in this case, either with respect to my own scheme or +to that of the noble lord (Lord Stanley). We want something else than +mere clerks, stationery, despatches, and so forth. We want what I shall +designate as a new feeling in England, and an entirely new policy in +India. We must in future have India governed, not for a handful of +Englishmen, not for that Civil Service whose praises are so constantly +sounded in this House. You may govern India, if you like, for the good +of England, but the good of England must come through the channels of +the good of India. There are but two modes of gaining anything by our +connection with India. The one is by plundering the people of India, and +the other by trading with them. I prefer to do it by trading with them. +But in order that England may become rich by trading with India, India +itself must become rich, and India can only become rich through the +honest administration of justice and through entire security of life and +property. + +Now, as to this new policy, I will tell the House what I think the Prime +Minister should do. He ought, I think, always to choose for his +President of the Board of Control or his Secretary of State for India, a +man who cannot be excelled by any other man in his Cabinet, or in his +party, for capacity, for honesty, for attention to his duties, and for +knowledge adapted to the particular office to which he is appointed. If +any Prime Minister appoint an inefficient man to such an office, he will +be a traitor to the Throne of England. That officer, appointed for the +qualities I have just indicated, should, with equal scrupulousness and +conscientiousness, make the appointments, whether of the Governor- +General, or (should that office be abolished) of the Governors of the +Presidencies of India. Those appointments should not be rewards for old +men simply because such men have done good service when in their prime, +nor should they be rewards for mere party service, but they should be +appointments given under a feeling that interests of the very highest +moment, connected with this country, depend on those great offices in +India being properly filled. The same principles should run throughout +the whole system of government; for, unless there be a very high degree +of virtue in all these appointments, and unless our great object be to +govern India well and to exalt the name of England in the eyes of the +whole Native population, all that we have recourse to in the way of +machinery will be of very little use indeed. + +I admit that this is a great work; I admit, also, that the further I go +into the consideration of this question, the more I feel that it is too +large for me to grapple with, and that every step we take in it should +be taken as if we were men walking in the dark. We have, however, +certain great principles to guide us, and by their light we may make +steps in advance, if not fast, at any rate sure. But we start from an +unfortunate position. We start from a platform of conquest by force of +arms extending over a hundred years. There is nothing in the world worse +than the sort of foundation from which we start. The greatest genius who +has shed lustre on the literature of this country has said, 'There is no +sure foundation set on blood;' and it may be our unhappy fate, in regard +to India, to demonstrate the truth of that saying. We are always +subjugators, and we must be viewed with hatred and suspicion. I say we +must look at the thing as it is, if we are to see our exact position, +what our duty is, and what chance there is of our retaining India and of +governing it for the advantage of its people. Our difficulties have been +enormously increased by the revolt. The people of India have only seen +England in its worst form in that country. They have seen it in its +military power, its exclusive Civil Service, and in the supremacy of a +handful of foreigners. When Natives of India come to this country, they +are delighted with England and with Englishmen. They find themselves +treated with a kindness, a consideration, a respect, to which they were +wholly strangers in their own country; and they cannot understand how it +is that men who are so just, so attentive to them here, sometimes, +indeed too often, appear to them in a different character in India. I +remember that the Hon. Frederic Shaw, who wrote some thirty years since, +stated, in his able and instructive book, that even in his time the +conduct of the English in India towards the Natives was less agreeable, +less kindly, less just than it had been in former years; and in 1853, +before the Committee presided over by the hon. Member for Huntingdon +(Mr. T. Baring), evidence was given that the feeling between the rulers +and the ruled in India was becoming every year less like what could be +desired. It was only the other day there appeared in a letter of _The +Times_' correspondent an anecdote which illustrates what I am saying, +and which I feel it necessary to read to the House. Mr. Russell, of +_The Times_, says:-- + + 'I went off to breakfast in a small mosque, which has been turned + into a _salle à manger_ by some officers stationed here, and + I confess I should have eaten with more satisfaction had I not + seen, as I entered the enclosure of the mosque, a native badly + wounded on a charpoy, by which was sitting a woman in deep + affliction. The explanation given of this scene was, that "---- + [the name of the Englishman was left blank] had been licking two + of his bearers (or servants), and had nearly murdered them." This + was one of the servants, and, without knowing or caring to know + the causes of such chastisement, I cannot but express my disgust + at the severity--to call it by no harsher name--of some of our + fellow-countrymen towards their domestics.' + +The reading of that paragraph gave me extreme pain. People may fancy +that this does not matter much; but I say it matters very much. Under +any system of government you will have Englishmen scattered all over +India, and conduct like that I have just described, in any district, +must create ill feeling towards England, to your rule, to your +supremacy; and when that feeling has become sufficiently extensive, any +little accident may give fire to the train, and you may have calamities +more or less serious, such as we have had during the last twelve months. +You must change all this if you mean to keep India. I do not now make +any comment upon the mode in which this country has been put into +possession of India. I accept that possession as a fact. There we are; +we do not know how to leave it, and therefore let us see if we know how +to govern it. It is a problem such as, perhaps, no other nation has had +to solve. Let us see whether there is enough of intelligence and virtue +in England to solve the difficulty. In the first place, then, I say, let +us abandon all that system of calumny against the Natives of India which +has lately prevailed. Had that people not been docile, the most +governable race in the world, how could you have maintained your power +for 100 years? Are they not industrious, are they not intelligent, are +they not--upon the evidence of the most distinguished men the Indian +Service ever produced--endowed with many qualities which make them +respected by all Englishmen who mix with them? I have heard that from +many men of the widest experience, and have read the same in the works +of some of the best writers upon India. Then let us not have these +constant calumnies against such a people. Even now there are men who go +about the country speaking as if such things had never been +contradicted, and talking of mutilations and atrocities committed in +India. The less we say about atrocities the better. Great political +tumults are, I fear, never brought about or carried on without grievous +acts on both sides deeply to be regretted. At least, we are in the +position of invaders and conquerors--they are in the position of the +invaded and the conquered. Whether I were a native of India, or of +England, or of any other country, I would not the less assert the great +distinction between their position and ours in that country, and I would +not permit any man in my presence, without rebuke, to indulge in the +calumnies and expressions of contempt which I have recently heard poured +forth without measure upon the whole population of India. + +There is one other point to which I wish to address myself before I sit +down, and in touching upon it I address myself especially to the noble +Lord (Lord Stanley) and his colleagues in the Government. If I had the +responsibility of administering the affairs of India, there are certain +things I would do. I would, immediately after this Bill passes, issue a +Proclamation in India which should reach every subject of the British +Crown in that country, and be heard of in the territories of every +Indian Prince or Rajah. I would offer a general amnesty. It is all very +well to talk of issuing an amnesty to all who have done nothing; but who +is there that has done nothing in such a state of affairs as has +prevailed during the past twelve months? If you pursue your vengeance +until you have rooted out and destroyed every one of those soldiers who +have revolted, when will your labour cease? If you are to punish every +non-military Native of India who has given a piece of bread or a cup of +water to a revolted trooper, how many Natives will escape your +punishment and your vengeance? I would have a general amnesty, which +should be put forth as the first great act done directly by the Queen of +England in the exercise of Sovereign power over the territories of +India. In this Proclamation 1 would promise to the Natives of India a +security for their property as complete as we have here at home; and I +would put an end to all those mischievous and irritating inquiries which +have been going on for years in many parts of India as to the title to +landed estates, by which you tell the people of that country that unless +each man can show an unimpeachable title to his property for ninety +years you will dispossess him. What would be the state of things here if +such a regulation were adopted? + +I would also proclaim to the people of India that we would hold sacred +that right of adoption which has prevailed for centuries in that +country. It was only the other day that I had laid before me the case of +a Native Prince who has been most faithful to England during these +latter trials. When he came to the throne at ten years of age he was +made to sign a document, by which he agreed that if he had no children +his territories should be at the disposal of the British Government, or +what was called the paramount power. He has been married; he has had one +son and two or three daughters; but within the last few weeks his only +son has died. There is grief in the palace, and there is consternation +among the people, for the fact of this agreement entered into by the boy +of ten years old is well known to all the inhabitants of the country. +Representations have already been made to this country in the hope that +the Government will cancel that agreement, and allow the people of that +State to know that the right of adoption would not be taken from their +Prince in case he should have no other son. Let the Government do that, +and there is not a corner of India into which that intelligence would +not penetrate with the rapidity of lightning. And would not that calm +the anxieties of many of those independent Princes and Rajahs who are +only afraid that when these troubles are over, the English Government +will recommence that system of annexation out of which I believe all +these troubles have arisen? + +I would tell them also in that Proclamation, that while the people of +England hold that their own, the Christian religion, is true and the +best for mankind, yet that it is consistent with that religion that they +who profess it should hold inviolable the rights of conscience and the +rights of religion in others. I would show, that whatever violent, over- +zealous, and fanatical men may have said in this country, the Parliament +of England, the Ministers of the Queen, and the Queen herself are +resolved that upon this point no kind of wrong should be done to the +millions who profess the religions held to be true in India. I would do +another thing. I would establish a Court of Appeal, the Judges of which +should be Judges of the highest character in India, for the settlement +of those many disputes which have arisen between the Government of India +and its subjects, some Native and some European. I would not suffer +these questions to come upon the floor of this House. I would not forbid +them by statute, but I would establish a Court which should render it +unnecessary for any man in India to cross the ocean to seek for that +justice which he would then be able to get in his own country without +corruption or secret bargain. Then I would carry out the proposition +which the noble Lord has made to-night, and which the right hon. +Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer made when he introduced his +Bill, that a Commission should be issued to inquire into the question of +finance. I would have other commissions, one for each Presidency, and I +would tell the people of India that there should be a searching inquiry +into their grievances, and that it was the interest and the will of the +Queen of England that those grievances should be redressed. + +Now, perhaps I may be told that I am proposing strange things, quite out +of the ordinary routine of government. I admit it. We are in a position +that necessitates something out of the ordinary routine. There are +positions and times in the history of every country, as in the lives of +individuals, when courage and action are absolute salvation; and now the +Crown of England, acting by the advice of the responsible Ministers, +must, in my opinion, have recourse to a great and unusual measure in +order to allay the anxieties which prevail throughout the whole of +India. The people of India do not like us, but they scarcely know where +to turn if we left them. They are sheep literally without a shepherd. +They are people whom you have subdued, and who have the highest and +strongest claims upon you--claims which you cannot forget--claims which, +if you do not act upon, you may rely upon it that, if there be a +judgment for nations--as I believe there is--as for individuals, our +children in no distant generation must pay the penalty which we have +purchased by neglecting our duty to the populations of India. + +I have now stated my views and opinions on this question, not at all in +a manner, I feel, equal to the question itself. I have felt the +difficulty in thinking of it; I feel the difficulty in speaking of it-- +for there is far more in it and about it than any man, however much he +may be accustomed to think upon political questions, and to discuss +them, can comprise at all within the compass of a speech of ordinary +length. I have described the measures which I would at once adopt for +the purpose of soothing the agitation which now disturbs and menaces +every part of India, and of inviting the submission of those who are now +in arms against you. Now I believe--I speak in the most perfect honesty-- +I believe that the announcement of these measures would avail more in +restoring tranquillity than the presence of an additional army, and I +believe that their full and honest adoption would enable you to retain +your power in India. I have sketched the form of government which I +would establish in India and at home, with the view of securing perfect +responsibility and an enlightened administration. I admit that these +things can only be obtained in degree, but I am convinced that a +Government such as that which I have sketched would be free from most of +the errors and the vices that have marked and marred your past career in +India. I have given much study to this great and solemn question. I +entreat the House to study it not only now, during the passing of this +Bill, but after the Session is over, and till we meet again next year, +when in all probability there must be further legislation upon this +great subject; for I believe that upon this question depends very much, +for good or for evil, the future of this country of which we are +citizens, and which we all regard and love so much. You have had enough +of military reputation on Eastern fields; you have gathered large +harvests of that commodity, be it valuable or be it worthless. I invite +you to something better, and higher, and holier than that; I invite you +to a glory not 'fanned by conquest's crimson wing,' but based upon the +solid and lasting benefits which I believe the Parliament of England +can, if it will, confer upon the countless populations of India. + + * * * * * + +INDIA. + +III. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 20, 1858. + +_From Hansard_. + +[A despatch of Lord Ellenborough, the President of the Board of Control, +to Lord Canning, the Governor-General of India, had been laid before the +two Houses. This document severely censured the Governor-General's +policy in dealing with the talookdars of Oude. Immediate advantage was +taken of this document by the Opposition, and on the 10th of May Mr. +Cardwell gave notice in the Commons of a motion condemnatory of Lord +Ellenborough's despatch. Lord Ellenborough retired from the Government. +On May 14, however, Mr. Cardwell brought forward his motion in the House +of Commons, but, after a lengthened debate, consented to withdraw it, at +the earnest entreaty of many from his own side of the House.] + +I am afraid I shall hardly be able to take part in this discussion in a +manner becoming the magnitude of the question before us, and in any +degree in accordance with the long anxiety which I have felt in regard +to Indian affairs, but I happen to have been unfortunately and +accidentally a good deal mixed up with these matters, and my name has +frequently been mentioned in the course of debate, not only in this but +in the other House of Parliament, and I am unwilling, therefore, to vote +without expressing my opinion upon the matter under discussion. First, I +may be allowed to explain that I think almost everything that has been +said and imagined with regard to the part that I have had in bringing on +this discussion has been altogether erroneous, and has no foundation +whatever. There was no arrangement between the hon. Gentleman the +Secretary of the Board of Control and myself with regard to the question +that I thought it my duty to put to him on the subject of Lord Canning's +Proclamation. I had spoken two or three weeks before the date of that +question to the hon. Gentleman, because I had been informed by a +respected friend of mine, Mr. Dickinson, the hon. secretary of the India +Reform Society, who has very great information on Indian affairs, that +he had received communications to the effect that some Proclamation of +this character was in preparation and was about to be issued. I spoke to +the hon. Member with regard to that report; and he told me that he had +received no communication which enabled him to give me any information +on the subject. I then intimated to him that in case there was anything +of the kind I should certainly put a question to the Government +respecting it. This was three weeks before the date of my question. +Well, I read the Proclamation in _The Times_ newspaper, the same +day that every one else read it; and I came down to the House, not +having seen the hon. Gentleman in the meantime. I met my hon. friend the +Member for Stockport (Mr. J. B. Smith) in Westminster Hall, and he told +me that having read the despatch, and knowing my intention with regard +to it, he, having met the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baillie) that evening, +said to him he had no doubt that when I came down to the House I should +put a question respecting it. When I came down I put a question and +received an answer; both question and answer are before the House and +the country. But I confess I did not anticipate that we should lose a +week from the discussion of the Indian Resolutions on account of the +question which I then asked the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the +Board of Control. + +Now, Sir, with respect to the question before the House, I should have +been content to let it end when the hon. and learned Gentleman the +Solicitor-General sat down. I think, Sir, the House might have come to a +vote when the Solicitor-General finished his speech. I could not but +compare that speech with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who +moved the Resolution now before the House. I thought the right hon. +Gentleman raked together a great many small things to make up a great +case. It appeared to me that he spoke as if his manner indicated that he +was not perfectly satisfied with the course he was pursuing. I think he +failed to stimulate himself with the idea that he was performing a great +public duty; for if he had been impressed with that idea I think his +subject would have enabled him to deliver a more lively and impressive +speech than that which he has made. But, Sir, I believe that every one +will admit that the speech of the Solicitor-General was characterised by +the closest logic and the most complete and exhaustive argument. There +is scarcely a Gentleman with whom I have spoken with regard to that +speech who does not admit that the hon. and learned Gentleman has seemed +to have taken up the whole question, and to have given a complete answer +to all serious charges brought against the Government. + +This Motion is an important one in two aspects. First of all as respects +the interests of parties at home--which some people, probably, think the +more important of the interests concerned; and, secondly, as respects +the effect which will be produced in India when this discussion, with +the vote at which we arrive, reaches that country and is read there. The +princes, the rajahs, and intelligent landholders, whether under the +English Government or independent, will know very little about what we +understand by party; and any cabal or political conspiracy here will +have no influence on them. They know little of the persons who conduct +and take a part in the debate in this House; and the 'loud cheers' which +they will read of in our discussions Will be almost nothing to them. The +question to them will be, What is the opinion of the Parliament of +England as to the policy announced to India in the Proclamation? + +Now, Sir, I complain of the right hon. Gentleman, and I think the House +has reason to complain, that in his Resolution he endeavours to evade +the real point of discussion. The noble Lord who has just sat down +(Viscount Goderich) says he will not meet this matter in any such +indirect manner as that proposed by the Amendment of the hon. Member for +Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn); but what can be less direct than the issue +offered by the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for +Oxford? This is proved by the fact that, throughout the course of this +discussion, every serious argument and every serious expression has had +reference to the character of the Proclamation, and not to those little +matters which are mixed up in this Resolution. Nobody, I believe, +defends the Proclamation in the light in which it is viewed by the +Government, and censured by the Government. All that has been done is an +endeavour to show that it is not rightly understood by those who censure +it as announcing a policy of confiscation. In fact, in endeavouring to +defend it, hon. Members insist that it does not mean something which it +says it does mean, and which if any of us understand the English +language it assuredly does mean. The right hon. Gentleman asks us to do +that which I think is an absolute impossibility. He wants us to condemn +the censure, and wishes at the same time--and I give him credit for +this--that we should pronounce no approval of the thing censured. I do +not think the right hon. Gentleman, though unfortunately he has been led +into this movement, wishes the House to pronounce an opinion in favour +of confiscation. I do not believe that any Member of this House asks us +to come to a conclusion in such a way as that our decision shall be an +approval of that which the Government has condemned in the despatch. But +if we affirm the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman, how is it +possible for the people of India to understand our decision in any other +sense than as an approval of the policy of Lord Canning's Proclamation? +With regard to the publication of the Government despatch, it is not a +little remarkable how men turn round and object to what they formerly +were so loud in demanding. On this side of the House it has been the +commonest thing to hear hon. Gentlemen say that all this secrecy on the +part of the Foreign Office and the Board of Control is a cause of the +greatest mischief. Assume for a moment that the publication of this +despatch was injudicious--after all, it was no high crime and +misdemeanour. We on this side of the House, and hon. Gentlemen below the +gangway, ought to look with kindness on this failing, which, if a +failing, leans to virtue's side. Then, Sir, with regard to the language +of the despatch, I do not know of any Government or Minister who would +not be open to censure if we chose to take up every word in a despatch. +A man of firmer texture, of stronger impulse, and more indignant +feelings will, on certain occasions, write in stronger terms than other +men--and I confess I like those men best who write and speak so that you +can really understand them. Now I say that the proposition before the +House is a disingenuous one. It attempts to lead the House into a very +unfortunate dilemma. I think that no judicial mind--seeing that the +result of a decision in favour of this Resolution will be the +establishment of the policy of the Proclamation--will fail to be +convinced that we ought not to arrive at such a decision without great +hesitation, and that we cannot do so without producing a very injurious +effect on the minds of the people of India. + +We now come to what all parties admit to be the real question--the +Proclamation and the policy of confiscation announced in it. There are +certain matters which I understand all sides of the House to be agreed +on. They agree with the Government and the East India Company that the +people of Oude are enemies but that they are not rebels [Cries of 'Yes, +yes!'--'No, no!'] I thought the supporters of the Resolution of the +right lion. Gentleman the Member for Oxford told us that if the +Government had written a judicious despatch like that of the East India +Company, they would have applauded and not censured it. Well, the East +India Directors--and they are likely to know, for they were connected +with the commission of the Act that brought this disturbance in Oude +upon us--say that the people of Oude are not rebels; that they are not +to be treated as rebels; but as enemies. If so, the Government have a +right to treat them according to those rules which are observed by +nations which are at war with each other. Will the House accept that +proposition? ['No, no!'--'Yes, yes!'] Well, if hon. Gentlemen on this +side will not accept it, I hope the noble Lord the Member for the West +Riding (Viscount Goderich) will not include them amongst those who are +in favour of clemency. I am quite sure the people of England will accept +that definition--that civilised Europe will accept it; and that history-- +history which will record our proceedings this night, and our vote on +this Resolution--will accept it. Sir, I do not see how any one claiming +to be an Englishman or a Christian can by any possibility escape from +condemning the policy of this Proclamation. + +I now come--and on that point I will be as brief as possible--to the +question. What is the meaning of confiscating the proprietary rights in +the soil? We have heard from a noble Lord in 'another place' and it has +been stated in the course of the debate here, that this sentence of +confiscation refers only to certain unpleasant persons who are called +talookdars, who are barons and robber chiefs and oppressors of the +people. This is by no means the first time that, after a great wrong has +been committed, the wrongdoer has attempted to injure by calumny those +upon whom the wrong has been inflicted. Lord Shaftesbury, who is a sort +of leader in this great war, has told the world that this Proclamation +refers only to 600 persons in the kingdom of Oude. + +The kingdom of Onde has about five millions of people, or one-sixth of +the population of the United Kingdom. Applied to the United Kingdom in +the same rate of the population it would apply to 3,600 persons. Now, in +both Houses of Parliament there are probably 700 landed proprietors. It +would, therefore, be an edict of confiscation to the landed proprietors +of the United Kingdom equal to five times all the landed proprietors in +both Houses of Parliament. An hon. Gentleman says I am all wrong in my +figures. I shall be glad to hear his figures afterwards. But that is not +the fact; but if it were the fact, it would amount not to a political, +but to an entire social revolution in this country. And surely, when you +live in a country where you have, as in Scotland, a great province under +one Member of the House of Lords, and seventy or eighty miles of +territory under another, and where you have Dukes of Bedford and Dukes +of Devonshire, as in England--surely, I say, we ought to be a little +careful, at any rate, that we do not overturn, without just cause, the +proprietary rights of the great talookdars and landowners in India. It +is a known fact, which anybody may ascertain by referring to books which +have been written, and to witnesses who cannot be mistaken, that this +edict would apply to more than 40,000 landowners in the kingdom of Oude. +And what is it that is meant by these proprietary rights? We must see +what is the general course of the policy of our government in India. If +you sweep away all proprietary rights in the kingdom of Oude you will +have this result--that there will be nobody connected with the land but +the Government of India and the humble cultivator who tills the soil. +And you will have this further result, that the whole produce of the +land of Oude and of the industry of its people will be divided into two +most unequal portions; the larger share will go to the Government in the +shape of tax, and the smaller share, which will be a handful of rice per +day, will go to the cultivator of the soil. Now, this is the Indian +system. It is the grand theory of the civilians, under whose advice, I +very much fear, Lord Canning has unfortunately acted; and you will find +in many parts of India, especially in the Presidency of Madras, that the +population consists entirely of the class of cultivators, and that the +Government stands over them with a screw which is perpetually turned, +leaving the handful of rice per day to the ryot or the cultivator, and +pouring all the rest of the produce of the soil into the Exchequer of +the East India Company. Now, I believe that this Proclamation sanctions +this policy; and I believe further that the Resolution which the right +hon. Gentleman asks the House to adopt, sanctions this Proclamation; +that it will be so read in India, and that whatever may be the +influence, unfortunate as I believe it will be, of the Proclamation +itself, when it is known throughout India that this--the highest court +of appeal--has pronounced in favour of Lord Canning's policy, it will be +one of the most unfortunate declarations that ever went forth from the +Parliament of this country to the people of that empire. + +Let me then for one minute--and it shall be but for one minute--ask the +attention of the House to our pecuniary dealings with Oude. A friend of +mine has extracted from a book on this subject two or three facts which +I should like to state to the House, as we are now considering the +policy of England towards that afflicted country. It is stated that, +under the government of Warren Hastings, to the arrival of Lord +Cornwallis in 1786, the East India Company obtained from the kingdom of +Oude, and therefore from the Exchequer of the people of Oude, the sum of +9,252,000_l_.; under Lord Cornwallis, 4,290,000_l_.; under +Lord Teignmouth, 1,280,000_l_.; under Lord Wellesley, +10,358,000_l_. This includes, I ought to observe, the Doab, taken +in 1801 in lieu of subsidy, the annual revenue of that district being +1,352,000_l_. Coming down to the year 1814, there was a loan of a +million; in 1815 a loan of a million; in 1825 a loan of a million; in +1826 a loan of a million; in 1829 a loan of 625,000_l_.; and in +1838 a loan of 1,700,000_l_. Some of these sums, the House will +observe, are loans, and in one case the loan was repaid by a portion of +territory which the Company, in a very few years, under an excuse which +I should not like to justify, re-annexed to themselves, and therefore +the debt was virtually never repaid. The whole of these sums comes to +31,500,000_l_.; in addition to which Oude has paid vast sums in +salaries, pensions, and emoluments of every kind to servants of the +Company engaged in the service of the Government of Oude. + +I am not going further into detail with regard to that matter; but I say +that the history of our connection with the country, whose interests we +are now discussing, is of a nature that ought to make us pause before we +consent to any measure that shall fill up the cup of injury which we +have offered to the lips of that people. After this, two years ago, we +deposed the Sovereign of Oude. Everything that he had was seized--much +of it was sold. Indignities were offered to his family. Their ruin was +accomplished, though they were the governors of that kingdom. Some hon. +Gentleman, speaking on this side of the House, has tried to persuade the +House that this confiscation policy only intends that we should receive +the taxes of Oude. But that is altogether a delusion. That is a +statement so absurd that I am astonished that any one, even of those who +support the Resolution, should offer it to the House. In 1856, when you +dethroned the King of Oude, you stepped into his place, and became the +recipients of all the legitimate national taxes of the kingdom of Oude; +and now, having seized the 500,000_l_. a year, the revenue of that +country, after a solemn treaty which contained a clause that if there +were a surplus of revenue it should be paid to the credit of the kingdom +of Oude; after having applied that surplus, contrary to that clause of +the treaty, to the general purposes of India; you now step in and you +descend below the King, to every talookdar, to every landowner, large or +small, to every man who has proprietary rights in the soil, to every +man, the smallest and humblest capitalist who cultivates the soil--to +every one of these you say in language that cannot be mistaken--'Come +down from the independence and dignity you have held. As we have done in +other provinces of India we shall do here. Two-thirds of you have not +been mixed up in this war; but in this general confiscation the innocent +must suffer with the guilty, for such is the misfortune of war, and such +is the penalty which we shall inflict upon you.' Sir, if this +Proclamation be not a Proclamation of unheard-of severity, how comes it +that so many persons have protested against it? Does any man believe +that the noble Lord the Member for the West Riding (Viscount Goderich) +understands this Proclamation better than the high military authorities +who have so long known India? Does he suppose that the House of Commons +will take his authority upon a matter of this kind in preference to the +authority of the whole united press of India? ['Oh! oh!'] Well, I dare +say that hon. Members who cry 'Oh!' have not read the newspapers of +India upon the subject. Some of them uphold it because they say that at +one fell swoop it has done that which it took us twenty years to do in +other districts of India, and destroys every man who could influence the +people against the British Government. Others say that it is a +Proclamation of such a character that it must cause 'war to the knife' +against the English, and that the Governor-General who issued such a +Proclamation should have been prepared with a new army at his back that +he might have power to enforce it. + +The learned Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland referred in his +speech the other night to what had been said by the hon. and learned +Member for Devonport (Sir E. Perry) on the occasion of a question that I +had put some two or three weeks ago. Now I call the House to witness +whether when I put the question which brought out this despatch, and +when the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer rose in +his place and gave the answer that with respect to the policy of +confiscation--for that is the only thing there is any dispute about in +the Proclamation--the Government disavowed it in every sense--I call the +House to witness whether every Gentleman present in this part of the +House did not cheer that sentiment. Of course, every man cheered it. +They would not have been men; they would not have been Englishmen; they +would not have been legislators; they would have been men who had never +heard of what was just and right, if every instinct within them, at the +instant they heard the declaration of the Government, did not compel +them to an enthusiastic assent. And it was only when the fatal influence +of party, and the arts which party knows how to employ, were put in +motion, that hon. Gentlemen began to discover that there was something +serious and something dangerous in this memorable despatch. Now, I would +ask the House this question--are we prepared to sanction the policy of +that despatch? + +I am very sorry that I have not done what only occurred to me after this +debate commenced, and after the Amendment was proposed, or I should have +proposed another Amendment to the House that went expressly upon that +point, because--and I speak it without the smallest reference to the +influence which it may have on any party in this House--I think it of +the very highest consequence that, whatever decision we come to, it +should be liable to no misinterpretation when it arrives in India. Then, +Sir, we have been treated to a good deal of eloquence upon the manner of +the despatch; and with regard to that I must say a word or two. The +noble Lord the Member for London, who sits below me, has, I think, +fallen into the error of most of the speakers in favour of the +Resolution; that is, of treating some of the outside circumstances of +the case as if they were the case itself. I do not think, however, that +he stated there was a word in the despatch which was not true, although +he did express what I thought was rather an immoral sentiment for so +eminent a statesman. The noble Lord told us that after a crime had been +committed, men in office were never to let it be known or suspected that +they thought it was a crime. [Lord John Russell: 'The hon. Gentleman is +mistaken; I never said anything of the kind.'] I did not hear it myself, +but I read it, and many of my friends came to the same conclusion. ['Oh! +oh!'] Well, I understand, then, that he did not say it; but what he did +say was, that there was a great deal of sarcasm and invective in the +despatch, and he read a passage to show that such was the case. But the +fact is that a great deal depends upon the reading. I could take a +despatch of the noble Lord himself and read it in a manner that would +perfectly astonish him. He said, if I am not mistaken, that if the House +were to approve of that despatch as a proper despatch, then Lord Canning +was not fit to occupy the meanest political or official situation. +Indian despatches have, to my mind, never been very gentle. I recollect +having read in _Mill's History of British India_, and in other +histories also, despatches that have been sent from the President of the +Board of Control, the Secret Committee, and the Court of Directors, over +and over again; and I have thought that they were written in a tone +rather more authoritative and rather more dictatorial than I should have +been disposed to write, or than I should have been pleased to receive. +It arose from this--that in old times the magnates sitting in +Leadenhall-street were writing, not to Lord Canning and men of that +altitude, but to merchants and agents whom they had sent out, who were +entirely dependent upon them, and to whom they could say just what they +liked; and for 100 years past, as far as I have seen, their despatches +have had a character for severity, and that which men call +'dictatorial,' which I think might be very well dispensed with. But that +is a matter which should certainly be taken into consideration, when a +large portion of this House are disposed not only to censure Lord +Ellenborough, but to overturn the Government, because a despatch is not +written precisely in those gentle terms which some hon. Gentlemen think +to be right when inditing a letter to a Governor-General of India. + +There is one other point which I must notice, and that is the supposed +effect of this despatch upon the feelings of Lord Canning. I am not so +intimate with Lord Canning as many Members of this House, but I have had +the pleasure of his acquaintance, and have always believed that he was +one of the last men who would knowingly do anything that was inhuman or +unjust, and that is my opinion now. I think he is to be commiserated, as +any other man would have been who happened to be in India at such a time +as this; and I think we are bound also to take a lenient view even of +such errors as we may think he has committed. If I had gone to India, or +into any service under the State, I should expect that there would be a +general disposition to give me fair play in the exercise of my office, +and that no strained construction to my injury would be put upon +anything which I did. Well, that is the view which I entertain with +regard to Lord Canning. I have never uttered a syllable against him in +public, although I think that some of his acts have been open to great +objection; and I am not about to say anything against him now. I would +not support a Resolution which was intended to damage Lord Canning; and +I think the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) has not done wrong in +offering to the House the Amendment he has placed before us. But it is +just possible that Lord Canning is in the midst of circumstances which +have rendered it very difficult, perhaps impossible, for him to exercise +his own calm judgment on the great question which forms the subject of +this Proclamation, I see in that Proclamation not so much an emanation +from the humane and just mind of Lord Canning, as the offspring of that +mixture of red tape and ancient tradition which is the foundation of the +policy of the old civilian Council of Calcutta. But, Sir, if it were a +question of hurting Lord Canning's feelings and denouncing this +Proclamation, I could have no hesitation as to the choice which I should +make. A man's private and personal feelings are not a matter of +importance for the House when compared with the vast and permanent +interests involved in the dangerous policy which we are now discussing. +And I do not think the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cardwell), the noble +Lord the Member for the West Riding (Viscount Goderich), and the noble +Lord the Member for London, have any right to throw themselves into +something like a contortion of agony with regard to the manner of this +despatch; because, as was stated to the House the other night by the +learned Attorney-General for Ireland, they did not tell us much about +the feelings of another public servant, acting on behalf of the Crown at +a still greater distance from England, when last year they gave a vote +on the China question which pronounced a most emphatic condemnation on +the conduct of Sir John Bowring. Now, I like fair play. I would treat +Lord Canning as I would treat Sir John Bowring; and I would treat Sir +John Bowring as I would treat Lord Canning. Do not let us have in the +service of the State low-caste men who may be trampled upon at pleasure, +and high-caste men whom nobody dare criticise. + +I said, when I began, that this Resolution is important in reference to +something else besides India; that it is important with reference to the +position of parties in this House. I would ask the attention of the +House for a few moments to that branch of the subject. I am afraid--and +I hope I am not slandering anybody in saying it--that there is quite as +much zeal for what is called 'place' as there is for the good of India +in the proposition brought before us. If that despatch had been +published three months ago, when we were all sitting on that side of the +House, it is very probable that many Gentlemen who now speak against it +would have thought it a noble despatch, containing noble sentiments, +expressed in noble language. But now, Sir, there has been for the last +two months a growing irritation observable, particularly in this part of +the House. There has been a feeling which no ingenuity has been able to +disguise--a fear that if the present Government should, by some means or +other, remain in office over the Session, no small difficulty would be +found in displacing it--lest, like the tree, which, when first planted, +may be easily pulled up, it should by and bye strike its roots downwards +and its branches outwards, and after a year or two no man would be able +to get it out of the ground. Hon. Gentlemen opposite know that I differ +very widely from them on many public questions, and probably at some not +distant day they may find it out in some act of severe hostility; but I +put it to the House, whether, out of doors, the reputation of the +present Government is not, in many respects, better than the last? Take, +for instance, the Gentlemen who come up from the country on various +deputations to the Ministers--the judgment of these deputations, without +an exception, is in favour of the manner in which they have been +received by the present Ministers, and of the way in which their +suggestions and requests have been treated. Now, this may be no great +matter, and I do not say that it is; but I make the observation for the +benefit of the Gentlemen who sit on these benches, because it is just +possible that they may some time have to receive deputations again. Then +take their conduct in this House. 'Oh, yes.' hon. Gentlemen may say, +'but they are a weak Government; they have not a majority, and they are +obliged to be very civil.' But what I maintain is, that every Ministry +ought to be very civil, and what I am prepared to assert is--and I ask +every man on this side of the House if he does not agree with me, for I +have heard dozens of them say it out of the House--that when the late +Government were in office civility was a thing unknown. + +Take another point--for it is worthy of consideration by Gentlemen on +this side of the House, and I ask hon. Gentlemen who sit below the +gangway especially to consider it--look at the heritage of trouble with +regard to our foreign policy which the existing Government found on +their accession to office. Three months of what was going on upon the +Conspiracy Bill would have landed you on the very verge of a war, if not +in a war, with France, and that danger has been avoided certainly by no +concession which is injurious to the honour of England. Take the +question which has agitated the public mind with regard to Naples. I am +not going into any details; but so far as a Government could act, this +Government appears to have acted with judgment. I think the noble Lord +below me (Lord J. Russell) admitted that himself. I did not say that the +noble Lord said anything against them. On the contrary, I rejoice to +have him with me as a witness to what I am stating. With regard, then, +to these questions, seeing the dilemma into which the foreign affairs of +the country were brought under the last Administration, I think it is +but fair, just, and generous that Members on this side of the House, at +least, should take no course which wears the colour of faction, for the +purpose of throwing the present Government out of office. Whenever I +join in a vote to put Gentlemen opposite out of office, it shall be for +something that the country will clearly understand--something that shall +offer a chance of good to some portion of the British empire--something +that shall offer a chance of advancing distinctly the great principles +for which we--if we are a party at all on this side of the House-- +profess to care. + +But there is another reason. Not only is it feared that hon. Gentlemen +opposite will get firm in their seats, but it is also feared that some +hon. Gentlemen near me will get less firm in their alliance with the +right hon. Gentlemen on this side. I have heard of mutinous meetings and +discussions, and of language of the most unpardonable character uttered, +as Gentlemen now say, in the heat of debate. But there was something +more going on, which was traced to a meeting of independent Members +recently held in Committee-room No. 11; and if a stop were not put to +it, the powerful ranks on these benches might be broken up, which, if +united, it was believed, would storm the Treasury benches and replace +the late Government in office. I believe it was intended that a +desperate effort should be made to change the state of things here +before Whitsuntide. That was a resolution which had been come to long +before any one knew anything about Lord Ellenborough's despatch. And the +present seems to be a convenient opportunity, inasmuch as it has this in +its favour, that it appears to be defending an absent servant of the +Crown; that it appears to be teaching a lesson to the Government who +have acted injudiciously in publishing a despatch; altogether it has +that about it which makes it an excellent pretext on which hon. +Gentlemen may ride into office. Now, I do not speak to Whigs in office +or to those Gentlemen who have been in office and expect to be in office +again; but I should like to say what I believe to be true to those +Gentlemen who call themselves independent Members, who come here with no +personal object to serve, not seeking place, patronage, or favour, but +with an honest desire, as far as they are able, to serve their country +as Members of the House of Commons. If this Resolution be carried, it is +supposed that the old Government, or something very like it, will come +back again. Now, there was great discontent with that old Government +before it went out; yet no pledge whatever has been given that its +conduct will be better or different; no new measures have been promised, +no new policy has been avowed, no new men, that I have seen, have been +held forth to the public very distinctly as likely to take high office +in the State. There have been some things which I should think Members +of this House must have felt pain at witnessing. There are newspapers in +the interest of this ex-Treasury bench which have, in the most +unblushing manner, published articles emanating from the pen of somebody +who knew exactly what was wanted to be done. In the case of a gentleman, +for example, who was engaged in Committee-room No. 11--a gentleman whom I +need not mention because the House knows all the circumstances of this +case, but a gentleman who took a most prominent part in the proceedings +in that Committee-room--and no one is probably more indignant at what +has been done than himself--those newspapers have positively fixed upon +and designated him for a certain office, if the present Government go +out and another comes in; another gentleman who seconded a Resolution on +that occasion is also held up for an office; but they do not state +exactly what his precise position is to be; and the glittering bauble of +some place in the incoming Government is hung up before many hon. +Gentlemen who sit around me. It is not said, 'It is for you' and 'It is +for you;' but it is hung up dangling before them all, and every man is +expected to covet that glittering bauble. + +But this is not all. These are not the only arts which are employed. +Members of this House sitting below the gangway, who have been here for +years--Gentlemen of the most independent character--receive flattering +and beautifully engraved cards to great parties at splendid mansions; +and not later than Friday last, of all times, those invitations were +scattered, if not with a more liberal, no doubt with a much more +discriminating hand than they ever were before. [An hon. Member: +'Absurd!'] Of course it is very absurd; there is no doubt about that, and +that is precisely why I am explaining it to the House. Why, Sir, if +those cards of invitation contained a note with them, giving the exact +history of what was really meant, it would say to hon. Gentlemen, 'Sir, +we have measured your head, and we have gauged your soul, and we know or +believe'--for I believe they do not know--'we believe that your +principles which you came into Parliament to support--your character in +the House--your self-respect will go for nothing if you have a miserable +temptation like this held up before you.' Sir, if we could see them +taking a course which is said to be taken by the celebrated horse-tamer, +who appeals, as I am told, to the nobler and more intelligent instincts +of the animal which he tames, then I should not complain. But they +appeal to instincts which every honourable mind repudiates, and to +aspirations which no hon. Gentleman on this side of the House can for a +moment admit. + +Well, then, if they succeed, what sort of a Government shall we have? I +am as anxious for a Liberal Government as any man in this House, but I +cannot believe that, in the present position of things on this side of +the House, a Liberal and solid Government can be formed. We are told, +and the whole country has been in a state of expectation and wonder upon +it, that two eminent statesmen have actually dined together; and I am +very glad to hear that men engaged in the strife of politics can dine +together without personal hostility. I say nothing of the viands that +were eaten. I say nothing of the beverage that was in the 'loving cup' +that went round. One of our oldest and greatest poets has told us that-- + + 'Nepenthe is a drink of soverayne grace.' + +He says that it was devised by the gods to subdue contention, and +subject the passions; but that it was given only to the aged and the +wise, who were prepared by it to take their places with ancient heroes +in a higher sphere. But that could not have been the contents of the +'loving cup' in this instance, for these aged statesmen are still +determined to cling to this world, and to mix, as heretofore, with all +the vigour and the fire of youth in the turmoil and contention of public +life. But does the fact of this dinner point to reconciliation, and to a +firm and liberal administration? I believe that any such Government +would be the worst of all coalitions. I believe that it would be built +upon insincerity, and I suspect it would be of no advantage to the +country. Therefore I am not anxious to see such a Government attempted. + +I ask the House, then, are they prepared to overthrow the existing +Government on the question which the right hon. Gentleman has brought +before us--a question which he has put in such ambiguous terms? Are they +willing in overthrowing that Government to avow the policy of this +Proclamation for India? Are they willing to throw the country into all +the turmoil of a general election--a general election at a moment when +the people are but just slowly recovering from the effects of the most +tremendous commercial panic that this country ever passed through? Are +they willing to delay all legislation for India till next year, and all +legislation on the subject of Parliamentary reform till the year after +that? Are they willing, above all, to take the responsibility which will +attach to them if they avow the policy contained in this Proclamation? + +I confess, Sir, I am terrified for the future of India when I look at +the indiscriminate slaughter which is now going on there. I have seen a +letter, written, I believe, by a missionary, lately inserted in a most +respectable weekly newspaper published in London, in which the writer +estimates that 10,000 men have been put to death by hanging alone. I ask +you, whether you approve of having in India such expressions as these, +which I have taken this day from a Calcutta newspaper, and which +undoubtedly you will be held to approve if you do anything which can be +charged with a confirmation of the tenor of this Proclamation. Here is +an extract from _The Englishman_, which, speaking of the men of the +disarmed regiments, who amount to some 20,000 or 30,000, or even 40,000 +men, says:-- + + 'There is no necessity to bring every Sepoy to a court-martial, + and convict him of mutinous intentions before putting him down as + guilty. We do not advocate extreme or harsh measures, nor are we + of those who would drench the land with blood; but we have no + hesitation in saying, that, were the Government to order the + execution of all these Sepoys, they would be legally and morally + justified in doing so. There would be no injustice done.' + +No injustice would be done! I ask the House to consider that these men +have committed no offence; their military functions were suspended +because it was thought they were likely to be tempted to commit an +offence, and therefore their arms were taken from them; and now an +Englishman--one of your own countrymen--writing in a newspaper published +in Calcutta, utters sentiments so atrocious as those which I have just +read to the House. I believe the whole of India is now trembling under +the action of volcanic fires; and we shall be guilty of the greatest +recklessness, and I will say of great crime against the Monarchy of +England, if we do anything by which we shall own this Proclamation. I am +asked on this question to overturn Her Majesty's Government. The policy +adopted by the Government on this subject is the policy that was cheered +by hon. Members on this side when it was first announced. It is a policy +of mercy and conciliation. False--may I not say?--or blundering leaders +of this party would induce us, contrary to all our associations and all +our principles, to support an opposite policy. I am willing to avow that +I am in favour of justice and conciliation--of the law of justice and of +kindness. Justice and mercy are the supreme attributes of the perfection +which we call Deity, but all men everywhere comprehend them; there is no +speech nor language in which their voice is not heard, and they cannot +be vainly exercised with regard to the docile and intelligent millions +of India. Yon have had the choice. You have tried the sword. It has +broken; it now rests broken in your grasp; and you stand humbled and +rebuked. You stand humbled and rebuked before the eyes of civilized +Europe. You may have another chance. You may, by possibility, have +another opportunity of governing India. If you have, I beseech you to +make the best use of it. Do not let us pursue such a policy as many men +in India, and some in England, have advocated, but which hereafter you +will have to regret, which can end only, as I believe, in something +approaching to the ruin of this country, and which must, if it be +persisted in, involve our name and nation in everlasting disgrace. + + * * * * * + +INDIA. + +IV. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, AUGUST 1, 1859. +_From Hansard._ +[On August 1 Sir Charles Wood made his financial statement on India to +the House of Commons. One of his proposals was that the Government +should be empowered to raise 5,000,000_l_. in the United Kingdom in +order to meet the demands of the present year. The Loan Bill passed +through both Houses.] + +I have so often addressed the House upon the question of India that I +feel some hesitation in asking a portion of the time of the Committee +this evening. But notwithstanding an observation of the right hon. +Gentleman the Secretary for India that he does not see anything gloomy +in the future of India, I confess that to my view the question assumes +yearly a greater magnitude, and I may say a greater peril. I think, +therefore, that having given some attention to this subject in years +past, I may be permitted to bring my share, be its value more or less, +to the attempt which we are now making to confront this great evil. When +we recollect how insufficient are the statements which he has from +India, the right hon. Gentleman has given us as clear an account of the +finances of India as it was possible for him to do, and looking at them +in the most favourable point of view we come to this conclusion:--We +have what we have had for twenty years, only more rapidly accumulating, +deficit on deficit and debt on debt. + +The right hon. Gentleman told the Committee that when he left the +Government of India, I think in 1855, everything was in a most +satisfactory condition. Well, it did happen in that year, perhaps by +some of that kind of management which I have observed occasionally in +Indian finance, that the deficit was brought down to a sum not exceeding +150,000_l_. [Sir C. Wood: 'There was a surplus of 400,000_l_.'] The +deficit, I believe, before the mutiny was 143,000_l_. But, if the right +hon. Gentleman will allow me to take the three years preceding the +mutiny, I think that will give a much fairer idea of the real state of +the case, and it is not the least use shutting our eyes to the real +state of the case, because some day or other it will find us out, or we +shall find it out. The real state of the case in the three years +preceding the mutiny, 1855, 1856 and 1857, ending the 30th of April, is +a deficit of 2,823,000_l_., being an average not very far short of +1,000,000_l_. a-year. That is the state of things immediately after the +right hon. Gentleman left office. I do not in the least find fault with +him. He did not make the deficit, but I merely state this to show that +things are not at the moment in that favourable state which the right +hon. Gentleman would induce the Committee to believe. Keeping our +attention to that period, there is another point of view, which is also +very important. It appears to me that any Government must be an +excessively bad Government which cannot defray its expenses out of the +taxes which it levies on its people. We know, and every one has for +years known, that in India there is a source of revenue, not from taxes +levied on the people, but from opium, and which is very like the revenue +derived by the Peruvian Government from guano. If we turn to those three +years and see what relation the expenditure of the Government had to +taxes levied on the people of India, we shall find, though we may hear +that the taxes are not so much as we imagine, or that the people are +extremely poor, or that the Government is very extravagant--we shall +find that the sum levied for the sale of opium and transit was no less +than 10,500,000_l_., and if we add that to the 2,800,000_l_., we get a +sum of 13,300,000_l_., which is the exact sum which the Government of +India cost in those three years over and above what was raised from the +people by actual taxation. I say that this is a state of things which +ought to cause alarm, because we know, and we find it stated in the last +despatches, that the income derived from opium is of a precarious +character, and from the variation of climate in India, or from a +variation of policy in the Chinese Government, that revenue may +suddenly either be very much impaired or be cut off altogether. + +The right hon. Gentleman brings us to the condition in which we are now, +and it may be stated in the fewest possible words to be this,--that the +debt of India has been constantly rising, and that it amounts now to +100,000,000_l_. sterling. ['No, no!'] The right hon. Gentleman said +95,000,000_l_., but he said there would be 5,000,000_l_. next +year, and I will undertake to say that it is fair to argue on the basis +that the debt of India at this moment is about 100,000,000_l_., +that there is a deficit of 12,000,000_l_. this year, and that there +may be expected to be a deficit of 10,000,000_l_. next year. It is +not to be wondered at that it should be difficult to borrow money on +Indian account. + +I am not surprised at the hon. Member for Kendal (Mr. Glyn) being so +lively in the House to-night, and other hon. Gentlemen connected with +the City, who, I understand, have been impressing on the Secretary of +State the fact that money cannot be had in the City for the purpose for +which he wants it. I do not wonder that it is difficult to raise money +on Indian account. I should think it extraordinary if it could be +borrowed without a high rate of interest. That it can be borrowed at all +can only arise from the fact that England, whatever disasters she gets +into, generally contrives, by the blood of her soldiers or by the +taxation of her people, to scramble through her difficulties, and to +maintain before the world, though by enormous sacrifices, a character +for good faith which is scarcely held by any other country in the world. +With regard to the question of an Imperial guarantee, I take an opposite +view from the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) on that particular point, though +I agree with what he said as to certain expenses thrown on the Indian +Government. + +Last year I referred to the enormous expense of the Affghan war--about +15,000,000_l_.--the whole of which ought to have been thrown on the +taxation of the people of England, because it was a war commanded by the +English Cabinet, for objects supposed to be English, but which, in my +opinion, were of no advantage either to England or India. It was most +unjust that this enormous burden should have been thrown upon the +finances of the Indian Government. But I do not oppose an Imperial +guarantee because I particularly sympathize with the English taxpayers +in this matter. I think the English taxpayers have generally neglected +all the affairs of India, and might be left to pay for it. But there was +no justice in imposing on the unfortunate millions of India the burden +of a policy with which they had nothing to do, and which could not bring +any one of them a single handful of rice more--it did bring them rather +less than more--than they would have eaten without it. But I object to +an Imperial guarantee on this ground,--if we let the Services of India, +after exhausting the resources of India, put their hands into the +pockets of the English people, the people of England having no control +over the Indian expenditure, it is impossible to say to what lengths of +unimagined extravagance they would go; and in endeavouring to save India +may we not go far towards ruining England? + +But look at this question of Indian finance from another point of view. +The noble Lord (Lord Stanley) and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary +for India have both referred to the enormous amount of the whole +taxation of India taken by the Military Service. I believe it has been +shown that at this moment almost, if not altogether, the whole of the +net revenue of India is being absorbed by the Military Service of that +empire; that not a farthing is left out of the whole net revenue of +India to pay the expenses of the civil government or the public +creditor. If we leave out the opium duty, perhaps we shall see how far +the Military Service bears on the taxation of India; we shall see that +more than its net amount is absorbed by the Military Service. That is a +state of things that has never existed in any other country or among any +other people, for any considerable period, without bringing that country +to anarchy and ruin. We have been told by the Governor-General that the +great bulk of the revenue of India is not elastic; that with regard to +the land-tax there has been for a long period no increase in it; that, +on the contrary, that large source of income has decreased. He tells us, +further, that the army cannot, at present, be largely reduced with +safety. If so, what is the end to which we must come? Either the +Government of India must come to an end, or England itself must become +tributary to India. Seeing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has +within the last fortnight asked 70,000,000_l_. of the English +taxpayer for the expenses of the English Government, to ask nine or ten +millions more for the government of India would certainly cause great +dissatisfaction in this country. The picture is, to my mind, an alarming +one, notwithstanding the cheerful view taken of it by the Secretary for +India; and it has filled many besides myself with dismay. + +Now, looking round for modes of escape from this position, I believe +they exist, if we had the courage to adopt them. An hon. Friend has +asked me, 'Is there nobody to tell the House of Commons the truth on +this matter?' I might ask why he has not done it himself. I suppose he +is afraid of being thought rash; but his advice is, that the Government +should re-establish the independence of the Punjab, recall the Ameers of +Scinde, restore the Government of the King of Oude, giving to it the +dependency of Nagpore. I confess, whether it be rash or not, that I +think it would be wise to restore the Government of the Punjab and to +give independence to that province which is called Scinde, because as no +revenue is received from that part of the country in excess of the +expense which its retention causes to this country, we should endeavour +to bring our dominions in India within a reasonable and manageable +compass. No policy can be more lunatic than the policy of annexation we +have pursued of late years in India, and the calamity we are now meeting +is the natural and inevitable consequence of the folly we have +committed. It is not easy for great generals and statesmen who have been +made earls and marquesses and had bronze statues put up in their honour +in our public squares--it is not easy for the statesmen who have done +all this to turn round and reverse it all; they have not the moral +courage to do it; it might be an act of peril; it might appear a descent +from the summit of empire and be wrongly construed throughout the world. +But as a question of finance and good government we should, a few years +hence, admit that it was a sound policy. But I will not pursue this +subject, for I may fairly take it for granted that the House of Commons +and the Government of England are not likely to take such a course till +we are reduced to some extremity even greater than that which now meets +us. + +But there is another course that may fairly be recommended. It is to +take India as it is, the empire with all your annexations as it stands, +and to see if it is not possible to do something better with it than you +have done before, and to give it a chance in future years of redeeming +not only the character of the Government but its financial and +legislative position. The noble Lord (Lord Stanley) says there cannot be +any great diminution in the expenditure for the Civil Service of India; +but I do not in the least agree with the Secretary for India when he +says that the gentlemen of the Civil Service in that country are not +overpaid. Every one knows that they are overpaid; except some very high- +salaried bishops of whom we have heard, no men are so grossly overpaid +as the officials of the Civil Service in India. The proof of this may be +found everywhere. Look at the Island of Ceylon; there the duties are as +arduous and the climate as unfavourable as in India; yet the Government +does not pay its officials there more than one-half or two-thirds of the +salaries they are paid in India. There are in India itself many hundreds +of Europeans, the officers of the Indian army, all the Indian clergy, +and missionaries; there are also English merchants, carrying on their +business at rates of profit not much exceeding the profits made in this +country. But the Civil Service of the Indian Government, like everything +privileged and exclusive, is a pampered body; and, notwithstanding it +has produced some few able men who have worthily done their duty, I do +not think the Civil Service of India deserves the loud praise we have so +frequently heard awarded to it by speakers in this House. Now if you +could reduce the expense of the Civil Service by any considerable +amount, the best thing you could do with the money would be to increase +the establishment by sending a greater number of competent persons as +magistrates, collectors, and officials into the distant provinces, and +thereby double the facilities for good government in those districts. If +you could reduce the income of the Civil Service one half, you could for +the same money have a more efficient Service throughout India than at +present. You might not save money, but you would get a more complete +Service for it. + +But the military question the House of Commons will certainly have to +take in hand; though Secretaries for India are afraid to grapple with +it, I am not astonished that they feel some hesitation in doing so, for +from every one connected with the Military Service they would hear the +strongest objections to reducing the number of the troops. But let me +ask the Committee to consider what it has just heard. Before the Revolt +the European troops in India numbered 45,000 and the Native troops +250,000; now the 45,000 European troops are 110,000, and the 250,000 +Native soldiers are raised to 300,000. What was it that we heard during +the Indian mutiny; what was the cause of all the letters that appeared +in the newspapers? Every man said that the great evil was having a +Native army far larger than was required. That has been the source of +peril, and that was the real cause of the mutiny. Now we have even a +larger portion of this most perilous element than we had before. The +authorities of India do not appear to have learnt anything from the +mutiny, or they have learnt that all that was said in this House and in +this country was untrue, because they have 50,000 more Native troops +than they had before the mutiny. Therefore, the mode of argument appears +to be this:--A Native army was the cause of the mutiny, the cause of all +our perils, and now it is necessary to have more of it; and, as that is +the perilous element, of course 45,000 troops are not sufficient to keep +them in check; therefore, you have at present 110,000; and certain +officers who were examined, and the Commissioners who reported, +recommended that you should always have at least 80,000 Europeans there. +If we are only to have one body of troops to watch another, it seems to +me there can be no hope of any diminution of our military force, nor any +real reduction in our expenditure. Why is it that you require all this +army? Let me ask the Committee to look at the matter as sensible men of +business. The Revolt, which has been such a terrible affair, has been +suppressed. It was suppressed mainly by the 45,000 men in India, and not +by the 110,000 you have succeeded in placing there at a later period. +More than that, there is not at the present moment any alarming amount +of dissatisfaction in India, or at least the dissatisfied are +dispirited, and have lost all hope of resisting the power of England, +and must for a long period, I think, remain wholly dispirited. At the +same time, you have disarmed the people over a vast province. There are +millions of people in India, a great number of whom were previously in +possession of arms, who do not now possess a single weapon. I have seen +in the last accounts, only a day or two since, a statement that not less +than 1,400 forts in the kingdom of Oude alone have been destroyed, and +we know that many more have been destroyed in other parts. There is at +this moment no power for combined organized armed resistance against +you, except that which is in the Native army, which the Indian +Government has been building up of late to a greater extent than ever. + +The noble Lord (Lord Stanley) spoke of one point--the great importance +of which I admit--the want of confidence and sympathy that must have +arisen between the two races in consequence of the transactions of the +last two years. The shock of revolt must have created great suspicion +and hatred and fear, and there is nothing out of which panic grows so +easily as out of those conditions. I believe that is the case in India, +and perhaps there are indications of something of the kind at home. +There is a panic, therefore, and neither the Governor-General nor the +Civil Service nor military officers can make up their minds that they +are safe, recollecting the transactions of the past two years, in having +a less military force than we now have in India. But if you ask those +gentlemen they will never say they have enough. There are admirals here, +as we know, who are perfectly wild about ships, with whom arithmetic on +such a question goes for nothing. They would show you in the clearest +possible manner that you have not ships enough. So also, although I am +glad to find not to the same extent, as to troops. Some one said the +other night, in answer to an hon. Gentleman, about an increased force of +a particular kind, 'There is nothing like leather' and it is so. I say +naval officers and military officers are not the men to whom the +Chancellor of the Exchequer should depute the great and solemn duty of +determining what amount shall be expended for military purposes. There +is not a country in the world that would not have been bankrupt long +since, and plunged into irretrievable ruin, if the military authorities +had been allowed to determine the amount of military force to be kept +up, and the amount of revenue to be devoted to that purpose. + +I have another objection to this great army, and I now come to the +question of policy, which, I am sorry to say for India, has not been +touched upon. I do not think this is a question to be merely settled by +a very clever manner of giving the figures of the case. Those figures +depend upon the course you intend to pursue, upon the policy which the +Government intends to adopt, in that country. With this great army two +things are certain--we can have no reform of any kind in the Government +of India, nor an improved conduct on the part of the English in India +towards the Natives of India. With a power like this--110,000 English +troops, with an English regiment within an hour's reach of each civil +servant, you will find that the supremacy of the conquering race will be +displayed in the most offensive manner. + +Everybody connected with India--the hon. Member for Devonport (Sir +Erskine Perry), the hon. Member for Aberdeen (Colonel Sykes)--all who +are connected with India, know well that when the English were feeble in +India, when they had not a great army in the field or a great revenue to +support it, every Englishman treated the Natives by whom he was +surrounded rather with the feeling that he was an intruder in the +country, and that it was not only proper but absolutely necessary to +deal in a conciliatory and just manner with the great body of the +Natives of India; but precisely as our power increased the conduct of +our countrymen changed, and I find in the excellent book of Mr. Shore +that thirty years ago he describes this as the very source of the +growing ill feeling between the races in India. It has grown from that +time to this, until we have an irritation and animosity which in our +time, it may be, we shall see very little removed, and which may perhaps +never be wholly allayed. A Government, then, with this vast army, must +always be in a difficulty. Lord Canning--lord anybody else--cannot turn +his attention to anything but this wearing, exasperating question of how +money is to be got for the next quarter to pay this army. He cannot turn +his attention in any way to reforms, and I am convinced that this House +must insist upon the Government reducing its army, whatever be the risk. +A large army will render it impossible for you to hold the country, for +you will have a constantly increasing debt, and anarchy must inevitably +overwhelm you in the end. A small army, a moderate, conciliatory, and +just Government, with the finances in a prosperous condition;--and I +know not but that this country may possess for generations and centuries +a share, and a large share, in the government of those vast territories +which it has conquered. + +As to measures of reduction, I admit that it is of little use attempting +them unless they are accompanied by other changes. Here I have a charge +to bring against the Indian Government. I did hope when the noble Lord +spoke to-night that he would have told us something which I am sure he +must have known; that there is no such thing as a real Government in +India at all; that there is no responsibility either to a public opinion +there, or to a public opinion at home; and that therefore we cannot +expect a better policy or happier results. Let hon. Gentlemen imagine a +Government like that in India, over which the payers of the taxes have +not the slightest control; for the great body of the people in India +have, as we all know, no control in any way over the Government. Neither +is there any independent English opinion that has any control over the +Government, the only opinions being those of the Government itself, or +those of the Military and Civil Services, and chiefly of the latter. +They are not the payers of taxes; they are the spenders and the enjoyers +of the taxes, and therefore the Government in India is in the most +unfortunate position possible for the fulfilment of the great duties +that must devolve upon every wise and just Government. The Civil +Service, being privileged, is arrogant, and I had almost said tyrannous, +as any one may see who reads the Indian papers, which mainly represent +the opinion of that Service and the Military Service, which, as +everywhere else where it is not checked by the resolution of the +taxpayers and civilians, is clamorous and insatiable for greater +expenditure. The Governor-General himself,--and I do not make any attack +upon Lord Canning, although I could conceive a Governor-General more +suited to his great and difficult position,--he is a creature of these +very Services. + +I now ask the noble Lord to remember a case which happened during the +time he held office, and if the Committee will allow me, for the sake of +illustration, to refer to it, I do not think it will be any waste of +time. Hon. Gentlemen will recollect that during the last year, my hon. +Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. J. B. Smith), who has paid great +attention to Indian subjects, put a question to the noble Lord relating +to the annexation of a small territory called Dhar. What has been the +course of events in relation to that case? The news of the annexation +reached this country on the 20th of March last year. Upon the 23rd the +question was put in this House, when the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. +Baillie), then Under-Secretary, replied, that the Government had just +been informed of it by the Governor-General, and that he was solely +responsible for the act, the Government here having had no previous +communication upon it. Upon the 11th of June the noble Lord (Lord +Stanley) announced to the House, in answer to a question, that he had +disallowed the annexation of Dhar. The despatch disallowing it has since +been laid upon the table. It is dated June 22, and it asks for +information from the Governor-General. In India they assumed this +unfortunate Rajah to be guilty of misdemeanour, because his troops had +revolted, and the noble Lord in his despatch said, as I think very +sensibly, 'If we cannot keep our own troops, what argument is it for +overturning the independence of the territory of Dhar, seeing that the +Rajah himself has been faithful towards us, but his troops have +rebelled?' The noble Lord asked for further information. In the +preceding April the Ranee, the mother or step-mother of the Rajah, a +mere boy of thirteen, sent two memorials to the Governor-General, one by +post, and the other through the local British officer, remonstrating +against the annexation, and proving, as far as she could, that the Rajah +had not been guilty of any wrong against us. This memorial was not +acknowledged until August, when the Secretary for the Government of +India desired the Ranee to forward the memorial through the Governor- +General's agent in Central India. In April these papers were laid upon +the table of the House with one exception. The Ranee's memorial was not +included in those papers. + +Now, when those papers were laid before the House, why was not that +memorial, relating to the annexed territory, sent home and printed with +the other papers, so that hon. Members of this House might have read it? +The letter of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) was dated the 22nd of June, +1858, and to this hour it has never been answered. The noble Lord's +despatch disallowed the annexation; it condemned it, and asked for +information. From the date of that despatch to this present 1st of +August, 1859, there has not come any official information from the +Governor-General as to what he has done, or any answer to the noble +Lord's despatch, although sixteen months have elapsed. I say it is not +fitting that the Secretary of State for India should be treated with +utter disregard, if not with something like contempt, by any great +satrap who happens to be sent out to govern any of the provinces of this +country. This very case shows, that in the midst of the terrible +hurricane of the mutiny, the thirst for annexation was unslaked. At the +very moment, or just before, that the Queen issued her gracious +Proclamation here, the Government in India annexed the territory of this +Rajah, a boy of thirteen years of age, manifesting at the same time an +utter disregard of the Government at home and the just sentiments, if +they could have been ascertained, of the whole body of the people of +this country. And this must be so as long as you have a Government like +that of Calcutta. Procrastination is its very nature. + +The noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) did an excellent thing. He did +honour to himself by appointing a man of a new sort as Governor of +Madras. I have not much acquaintance with Sir C. Trevelyan, but I +believe him to be a very intelligent man and very earnest for the good +of India. But he finds that at Madras he is like a man who is manacled, +as all the Governors are. He is able to do almost nothing. But he has a +spirit above being the passive instrument for doing nothing in the hands +of the Governor-General, and he has been disposed to make several +changes which have looked exceedingly heterodox to those who are +connected with the old Government of India, and which have shocked the +nerves of the fifteen old gentlemen who meet in Leadenhall-street, and +their brethren in India. I find that among the changes endeavoured to be +effected by Sir C. Trevelyan, the following are enumerated:--He has +endeavoured to conciliate the Natives by abolishing certain ceremonial +distinctions which were supposed to degrade them when visiting the +Government House; he has shown that personal courtesy to them which +appears to be too much neglected in India; he has conspicuously rewarded +those who have rendered services to the State; he has made one of the +Natives his aide-de-camp; he has endeavoured to improve the land tenure, +to effect a settlement of the Enam, and to abolish the impress of cattle +and carts. He has also abolished three-fourths, or perhaps more, of the +paper work of the public servants. He also began the great task of +judicial reform, than which none is more urgently pressing. But what is +said of Sir C. Trevelyan for instituting these reforms? He has raised a +hornets' nest about him. Those who surround the Governor-General at +Calcutta say, 'We might as well have the Governors of the Presidencies +independent, if they are to do as they like without consulting the +Governor-General as has been done in past times' The _Friend of +India_ is a journal not particularly scrupulous in supporting the +Calcutta Government, but it has a horror of any Government of India +except that of the Governor-General and the few individuals who surround +him. A writer in the _Friend of India_ says:-- + + 'Sir C. Trevelyan relies doubtless on Lord Stanley, and we do not + dream of denying that the Secretary of State has provocation + enough to excuse the unusual course he seems obliged to pursue. + To send a reform to Calcutta is, at present, simply to lay it + aside. It will probably not even be answered for two years, + certainly not carried in five. Even when sanctioned, it will have + to pass through a crucible through which no plan can escape + entire. That weary waiting for Calcutta, of which all men, from + Lord Stanley to the people of Singapore, now bitterly complain, + may well tempt the Secretary to carry on his plans by the first + mode offered to his hand.' + +Here are only a dozen lines from a long article, and there are other +articles in the same paper to the same purport. I think, then, that I am +justified in condemning any Secretary for India who contents himself +with giving us the figures necessary to show the state of the finances, +which any clerk in the office could have done, and abstains from going +into the questions of the government of India and that policy upon which +alone you can base any solid hope of an improvement in the condition of +that country. + +There is another point I would mention. The Governor-General of India +goes out knowing little or nothing of India. I know exactly what he does +when he is appointed. He shuts himself up to study the first volumes of +Mr. Mill's _History of India_, and he reads through this laborious +work without nearly so much effect in making him a good Governor-General +as a man might ignorantly suppose. He goes to India, a country of twenty +nations, speaking twenty languages. He knows none of those nations, and +he has not a glimmer of the grammar and pronunciation or meaning of +those languages. He is surrounded by half-a-dozen or a dozen gentlemen +who have been from fifteen to forty years in that country, and who have +scrambled from the moderate but sure allowance with which they began in +the Service to the positions they now occupy. He knows nothing of the +country or the people, and they are really unknown to the Government of +India. To this hour the present Governor-General has not travelled +through any considerable portion of the territory of India. If he did, +he would have to pay an increased insurance upon his life for travelling +through a country in which there are very few roads and no bridges at +all. Observe the position, then, in which the Governor-General is +placed. He is surrounded by an official circle, he breathes an official +air, and everything is dim or dark beyond it. You lay duties upon him +which are utterly beyond the mental or bodily strength of any man who +ever existed, and which he cannot therefore adequately perform. + +Turning from the Governor-General to the Civil Service, see how short +the period is in which your servants in that country remain in any +particular office. You are constantly criticising the bad customs of the +United States, where every postmaster and many other officers lose their +situations, and where others are appointed whenever a new President is +elected. You never make blunders like the United States, and you will +therefore be surprised at a statement given in evidence by Mr. +Underbill, the Secretary of the Baptist Missionary Society. He says that +in certain districts in Bengal there are three or four Englishmen to +1,000,000 inhabitants, and that the magistrates are perpetually moving +about. I have here the names of several gentlemen cited. Mr. Henry +Lushington went to India in 1821, and remained till 1842. During these +twenty-one years he filled twenty-one different offices; he went to +Europe twice, being absent from India not less than four and a quarter +years. Upon an average, therefore, he held his twenty-one offices not +more than nine months each. Mr. J. P. Grant was Governor of Bengal. That +was so good a place that he remained stationary in it. But he went to +India in 1828 and remained there until 1841. In those thirteen years he +held twenty-four different situations, being an average of less than six +months for each. Mr. Charles Grant--and I may say that Grant is a name +which for three or four generations has been found everywhere in India,-- +he was in India from 1829 to 1842, and in those thirteen years he +filled seventeen offices, being an average of only eight months for each +office. Mr. Halliday, Governor of Bengal, went to India in 1825, and +remained until 1843. In those eighteen years he held twenty-one offices, +and he did not become stationary until he was accredited to the +lucrative and great office of Governor of Bengal. + +I think these facts show that there is something in the arrangements of +the Indian Government which makes it no Government at all, except for +the purpose of raising money and spending taxes. It is no Government for +watching over the people and conferring upon them those blessings which +we try to silence our consciences by believing the British Government is +established in India to promote. What can a Governor-General do with +such a Council, and with servants who are ever changing in all the +departments? I am not stating my own opinion, but what is proved by the +blue-books. Mr. Halliday stated that the police of Bengal were more +feared than the thieves and dacoits. But how is this Government, so +occupied and so embarrassed, to be expected to put the police on a +satisfactory footing? With regard to justice, I might appeal to any +gentleman who has been in India whether, for the most part, the Judges +in the Company's Courts are not without training, and if they are +without training, whether they will not probably be without law. The +delay is something of which we can have no conception, even with our +experience of the Court of Chancery in this country. Perjury and wrong +are universal wherever the Courts of the Company's Service have been +established in India. Of their taxation we hear enough to-night. It is +clumsy and unscientific. In their finance there is such confusion that +the Government proposes to send out somebody, not to raise revenue, not +to spend it, but somebody who will be able to tell you how it is raised +and spent, for that is what you want to know. They have no system of +book-keeping whatever. The Secretary of State gives us a statement of +revenue and expenditure up to the 30th of April, 1858, sixteen months +back, and even for the year preceding he can only furnish what he calls +an 'estimate.' Would any other Legislative Assembly in the whole world, +except this, tolerate such a state of things? I did try myself several +years ago to get a statement of the accounts up to a later period; but I +found it was of no use. They ought to be brought up to a later period; +the thing is quite within the range of possibility; it is simply not +done because there is no proper system of book-keeping, and no one +responsible for not doing it. + +You have no Government in India; you have no financial statement; you +have no system of book-keeping; no responsibility; and everything goes +to confusion and ruin because there is such a Government, or no +Government, and the English House of Commons has not taken the pains to +reform these things. The Secretary of State to-night points to the +increase in the English trade. In that trade I am myself interested, and +I am delighted to see that increase; but it should be borne in mind that +just now it is not a natural increase, and therefore not certain to be +permanent. If you are spending so many millions in railroads and in +carrying on war--that is, 22,000,000_l_. for your armaments in +India instead of 12,000,000_l_.--is not that likely to make a great +difference in your power to import more largely from this country? Do +not we know that when the Government of the day was pouring English +treasure into the Crimea the trade with the Levant was most materially +increased? And, therefore, I say it will be a delusion for the right +hon. Gentleman to expect that the extraordinary increase which has taken +place within the last three years will go on in future in the same +proportion. + +Now, the point which I wish to bring before the Committee and the +Government is this, because it is on this that I rely mainly--I think I +may say almost entirely--for any improvement in the future of India. It +would be impertinent to take up the time of the Committee by merely +cavilling at what other people have said, and pointing out their errors +and blunders, if I had no hope of being able to suggest any improvement +in the existing state of things. I believe a great improvement may be +made, and by a gradual progress that will dislocate nothing. I dare say +it may disappoint some individuals, but where it will disappoint one man +in India it will please a thousand. What you want is to de-centralize +your Government. I hold it to be manifestly impossible to govern +150,000,000 of persons, composing twenty different nations, speaking as +many different languages, by a man who knows nothing of India, assisted +by half-a-dozen councillors belonging to a privileged order, many of +whom have had very little experience in India, except within narrow +limits, and whose experience never involved the consideration and +settlement of great questions of statesman ship. If you could have an +independent Government in India for every 30,000,000 of its people, I do +not hesitate to say, though we are so many thousand miles away, that +there are Englishmen who, settling down among those 20,000,000 of +people, would be able to conduct the Government of that particular +province on conditions wholly different and immeasurably better than +anything in the way of administration which we have ever seen in India. + +If I were Secretary of State for India,--but as I am not, I will +recommend the right hon. Gentleman to do that which I would do myself, +or I would not hold his office for one month; because, to hold office +and come before the House Session after Session with a gloomy statement, +and with no kind of case to show that you are doing anything for India, +or that you are justified in holding possession of it at all, is nothing +but to receive a salary and to hold a dignity without any adequate +notion of the high responsibility attaching to them. I am not blaming +the right hon. Gentleman in particular; he is only doing what all his +predecessors before him have done. There has been no real improvement +since I have sat in Parliament in the government of India, and I believe +the Bill of last year is not one whit better for purposes of +administration than any that has gone before. But I would suggest to the +right hon. Gentleman, whether it would not be a good thing to bring in a +Bill to extend and define the powers of the Governors of the various +Presidencies in India? I do not ask the right hon. Gentleman to turn out +the fifteen gentlemen who assist him in Leadenhall-street to vegetate on +their pensions, but I ask him to go to India and to take the Presidency +of Madras for an instance. Let arrangements be made by which that +Presidency shall be in a position to correspond directly with him in +this country, and let every one connected with that Government of Madras +feel that, with regard to the interests and the people of that +Presidency, they will be responsible for their protection. At present +there is no sort of tie between the governors and the governed. Why is +it that we should not do for Madras what has been done for the Island of +Ceylon? I am not about to set up the Council of Ceylon as a model +institution--it is far from that; but I will tell you what it is, and +you will see that it would not be a difficult thing to make the change I +propose. The other day I asked a gentleman holding an office in the +Government, and who had lived some years in Ceylon, what was the state +of the Council? He said it was composed of sixteen members, of whom six +were non-official and independent, and the Governor had always a +majority. He added that at the present moment in that Council there was +one gentleman, a pure Cingalese by birth and blood, another a Brahmin, +another a half-caste, whose father was a Dutchman and whose mother was a +Native, and three others who were either English merchants or planters. +The Council has not much _prestige_, and therefore it is not easy +to induce merchants in the interior to be members and to undertake its +moderate duties; but the result is that this Cingalese, this Brahmin, +this half-caste, and these three Englishmen, although they cannot out- +vote Sir H. Ward, the Governor, are able to discuss questions of public +interest in the eye and the ear of the public, and to tell what the +independent population want, and so to form a representation of public +opinion in the Council, which I will undertake to say, although so +inefficient, is yet of high importance in the satisfactory government of +that island. Why is it that we can have nothing like this in the +Councils of Madras or Bombay? It would be an easy thing to do, and I +believe that an Act of Parliament which would do it would lay the +foundation of the greatest reform that has yet taken place in India. At +present all the Governors are in fetters; and I see that blame has been +imputed to Sir Charles Trevelyan for endeavouring to break through those +fetters. No doubt an attempt will be made to have him recalled, but I +hope that the right hon. Gentleman, while he moderates the ardour of the +Governor so far as to prevent a rebellion among the civilians, will +support him honestly and faithfully in all those changes which the right +hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do are essential to the improvement of +the government of that country. + +There is yet another question, and that is, what is to be done with +regard to the people of India on the subject of education, and +especially with reference to the matter of religious instruction? I beg +the right hon. Gentleman to be cautious how he takes the advice of any +gentleman in this country, who may ask him to make changes in the +established order of things there by appearing in the slightest degree +to attempt to overthrow the caste and religion of the Natives of India. +I have here an extract from a letter written by a gentleman who was +present at one of the ceremonies of reading the Queen's Proclamation in +November last. He says:-- + + 'Not less than 7,000 Natives of all ranks and conditions and + religions flocked to the esplanade at Tellicherry, where there + was no show but the parading of a company of Sepoys, who fired a + _feu de joie_ very badly, to hear the Queen's Proclamation + read. All who heard, all who heard not, manifested the deepest + interest in it. The pledged inviolability of their religion and + their lands spread like wildfire through the crowd, and was soon + in every man's mouth. Their satisfaction was unbounded.... I + mentioned that I went to Tellicherry to hear the Queen's + Proclamation read. We have since had it read here (Anjarakandy). + You will see an account of what took place on the occasion in the + accompanying copy of an official report I addressed to the + assistant-magistrate. What I have described understates the + feeling manifested by the people. They were all eyes and ears, + listening breathlessly to what was being read. You will observe + that convening them for any public purpose whatever, except here, + was a thing unknown, and would have been a thing scouted under + the Company's Government. Here I always assemble them, + communicate everything they ought to know and hear, and talk it + over with them. But a Queen's Proclamation is not an every-day + affair, so they came in crowds, and I will venture to say that + there is not another place in the Queen's India where it was so + clearly explained to them or so thoroughly understood. But the + impartial toleration of their religion and caste was the be-all + and end-all of their comments, praise, and individual + satisfaction. One Mafitta said, "They had had scores of + proclamations upon every conceivable subject, but never one so + wise and sensible as this." + +The East India Company was a wonderful Company for writing despatches. +There was nothing so Christian as their doctrine, nothing so unchristian +as their conduct. That Proclamation has in it the basis of all you +should aim at in future in India--a regard to the sacredness of their +property, and the sacredness of their religion, and an extension to them +of as regular and full justice as is shown to your own countrymen. +Depend upon it these Natives of India can comprehend this as well as we +comprehend it; and, if you treat them as we are treated, and as they +ought to be treated, you will not require 400,000 men to help you to +govern a people who are notoriously among the most industrious and most +peaceable to be found on the face of the earth. There has lately been an +act done by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) to which I must allude. Why he +did it I do not know. I am sure the noble Lord did not mean to do an act +of injustice--though very great injustice has been done. A question was +put the other night about a Native of India who had come to this country +to qualify himself for entering into competition for employment in the +Civil Service of his country. I have seen that young gentleman, and +conversed with him; and when I state his case, it will be seen whether +he has been treated well or wisely, though the regulation under which he +has suffered may have been made without any reference to him +individually. He arrived in this country in June, 1856, and remained +preparing himself for competition for two years and a-half till +December, 1858, when a new regulation came out, which made twenty-two +instead of twenty-three years of age the period for entering the Civil +Service. He might have been ready for competition in July, 1860, but he +could not be ready in July, 1859. Under these circumstances he would be +past the age of twenty-two before he could be able to present himself +for examination. The consequence is, that he has been obliged to turn +himself to another channel for employment. His father is an assistant- +builder in the Government dockyard of Bombay, and has been in England. +There was great interest excited among the Natives when the young man +left India to come to England, and there is great disappointment among +his friends at the result. He has been laughed at for trusting the +Government, and it is said that while Government go on changing their +regulations in this way no faith can be put in them. Now this is the +first case of this kind that has happened. This young gentleman (or his +father) has expended 1,500_l_. in coming here and in endeavouring +to get the best education, solely with a view to be suited for the Civil +Service. If he had entered into that Civil Service a great thing would +have been accomplished. The result would have been that the House and +the Secretary for India would have seen that it was very unjust, while +the son of any one here could pursue his studies at home and enter into +competition for the Civil Service, that the sons of the Natives of India +who wish to enter into the service of their own country must come +thousands of miles at great expense, and live apart from their families +for years, before they are able to accomplish their object, and the +result must have been that you would have established in some city in +India the same mode of examination that you have established here. You +must have been led to do that which would have enabled young men in +India to offer themselves for the Civil Service of their country on as +favourable terms as could be done in England. I am sure the noble Lord +never had the slightest idea of the regulation having reference to this +young man, or of injuring him; yet it has been done, and what has +occurred leads to the conclusion that either somebody very deep in these +matters has been at the bottom of this change, or that some combination +of unfortunate circumstances has been at work, by which that which we +have all so much at heart has been retarded. If the noble Lord had +struck out this regulation, or made a new one, by which this young man +could have had a chance of going home as a servant of the Civil Service, +the fact would have been worth many regiments of soldiers in India. + +In speaking on this subject I have nothing new to offer to the attention +of the House. I have propounded the very same theories and remedies +years ago. They are not my remedies and theories. I am not the inventor +of local government for India; but the more I have considered the +subject--the more I have discussed it with the Members of this House and +with gentlemen connected with India--the more I am convinced that you +will not make a single step towards the improvement of India unless you +change your whole system of government--unless you give to each +Presidency a government with more independent powers than are now +possessed by it. What would be thought if the whole of Europe was under +one governor, who knew only the language of the Feejee Islands, and that +his subordinates were like himself, only more intelligent than the +inhabitants of the Feejee Islands are supposed to be? You set a governor +over 150,000,000 of human beings, in a climate where the European cannot +do the work he has to do so well as here, where neither the moral nor +physical strength of the individual is equal to what it is at home,--and +you do not even always furnish the most powerful men for the office;-- +you seem to think that the atmosphere will be always calm and the sea +always smooth. And so the government of India goes on; there are +promises without number of beneficial changes, but we never heard that +India is much better or worse than before. Now, that is not the way to +do justice to a great empire like India. If there had been a better +government in India, the late disturbances among your own troops would +not have happened; and I own I tremble when I reflect that every post +may bring us, in the present temper of the European troops in India, +some dire intelligence of acts which they may have committed, because +they may think that this is a convenient opportunity for pressing some +great claim of their own. + +I beg the Committee to consider this matter, notwithstanding that the +right hon. Gentleman is not disposed to take a gloomy view of the state +of India. Look at your responsibilities. India is ruled by Englishmen, +but remember that in that unfortunate country you have destroyed every +form of government but your own; that you have cast the thrones of the +Natives to the ground. Princely families, once the rulers of India, are +now either houseless wanderers in the land they once called their own, +or are pensioners on the bounty of those strangers by whom their +fortunes have been overthrown. They who were noble and gentle for ages +are now merged in the common mass of the people. All over those vast +regions there are countless millions, helpless and defenceless, deprived +of their natural leaders and their ancient chiefs, looking with only +some small ray of hope to that omnipresent and irresistible Power by +which they have been subjected. I appeal to you on behalf of that +people. I have besought your mercy and your justice for many a year +past; and if I speak to you earnestly now, it is because the object for +which I plead is dear to my heart. Is it not possible to touch a chord +in the hearts of Englishmen, to raise them to a sense of the miseries +inflicted on that unhappy country by the crimes and the blunders of our +rulers here? If you have steeled your hearts against the Natives, if +nothing can stir you to sympathy with their miseries, at least have pity +upon your own countrymen. Rely upon it the state of things which now +exists in India must, before long, become most serious. I hope that you +will not show to the world that, although your fathers conquered the +country, you have not the ability to govern it. + +You had better disencumber yourselves of the fatal gift of empire than +that the present generation should be punished for the sins of the past. +I speak in condemnatory language, because I believe it to be deserved. I +hope that no future historian will have to say that the arms of England +in India were irresistible, and that an ancient empire fell before their +victorious progress,--yet that finally India was avenged, because the +power of her conqueror was broken by the intolerable burdens and evils +which she cast upon her victim, and that this wrong was accomplished by +a waste of human life and a waste of wealth which England, with all her +power, was unable to bear. + + * * * * * + +INDIA. + +V. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 19, 1861. + +_From Hansard_. + +[Mr. Dunlop brought forward a motion to inquire into the discrepancies +between certain sets of documents, relating to the Afghan war of 1837-8. +It appeared that some passages in the despatches of Sir Alexander Burnes +had been mutilated, in order to make it appear that he advised a policy +which he really condemned. Mr. Dunlop moved for a Committee to inquire +into this alleged mutilation of despatches presented to the House. The +motion was negatived.] + +When the noble Lord rose, I observed, from his countenance and from his +language, that he seemed to be suffering from the passion of anger. +[Viscount Palmerston: 'Not much.'] 'Not much,' the noble Lord says. I +admit that in the course of his speech he calmed down; but he was so far +led from what I think was a fair course as to charge the hon. and +learned Gentleman who introduced this Motion with making a violent and +vituperative speech, and he spoke of 'that vocabulary of abuse of which +the hon. Gentleman appeared to be master.' Now, I will undertake to say +that I am only speaking the opinion of every Gentleman in the House who +heard the speech which introduced this question, when I say that there +has rarely been delivered here on any subject a speech more strictly +logical, more judicially calm, and more admirable than that which we +have heard to-night from the hon. and learned Member for Greenock. But +the fact is the noble Lord felt himself hit. + +The noble Lord is on his trial in this case; and on that account I +expect that at the conclusion of the debate he will not feel himself at +liberty to object to the appointment of this Committee. After a few +sentences the noble Lord touched upon the case of Sir Alexander Burnes, +and he made a very faint denial of the misrepresentations which are +charged against the Government of that day in the case of that +gentleman. But he went on to say that, after all, these things were of +no importance; that what was in, or what was left out, was unimportant. +But I should like to ask the noble Lord what was the object of the +minute and ingenious, and I will say unmatched care which was taken in +mutilating the despatches of a gentleman whose opinions were of no +importance and whose writings could not make the slightest difference +either to the question or to the opinions of any person concerned? The +noble Lord, too, has stooped to conduct which, if I were not in this +House, I might describe in language which I could not possibly use here +without being told that I was transgressing the line usually observed in +discussions in this assembly. The noble Lord has stooped so low as to +heap insult, throughout the whole of his speech, upon the memory of a +man who died in the execution of what he believed to be his public duty-- +a duty which was thrust upon him by the mad and obstinate policy of the +noble Lord; and whilst his blood cries to Heaven against that policy, +the noble Lord, during a three-quarters of an hour's speech in this +House, has scarcely ceased to heap insult on his memory. + +What the noble Lord told us throughout his speech was that Sir Alexander +Burnes was a man of the greatest simplicity of character. I could not, +however complimentary I were disposed to be, retort that upon the noble +Lord. He says that Sir Alexander Burnes--of whom he spoke throughout in +the most contemptuous manner--an eminent political agent at the Court of +Dost Mahommed, was beguiled by the treachery of that Asiatic ruler; that +he took everything for truth which he heard, and that, in point of fact, +he was utterly unfit for the position which he held at Cabul. But +although the noble Lord had these despatches before him, and knew all +the feelings of Sir Alexander Burnes, he still continued Sir Alexander +Burnes there. He was there two years after these despatches were +written, in that most perilous year when not only himself but the whole +army--subjects of the Queen--fell victims to the policy of the noble +Lord. Now, I must tell the noble Lord what my hon. and learned Friend, +the Member for Greenock, did not discuss, and what the Committee is not +to do--because every Member who heard the speech of the hon. and learned +Member for Greenock, and those who listened to the speech of the noble +Lord, must have seen that from the first the noble Lord evaded the whole +question. He endeavoured to lead the House to believe that my hon. and +learned Friend was going into some antiquarian researches about the +policy of the English or the Indian Government twenty years ago, and +that it was proposed to have a Committee to dig up all the particulars +of our supposed peril from the designs of Russia at that time. But the +fact is that my hon. and learned Friend had no such intention; and there +was no man in the House more cognizant of that fact than the noble Lord +when he ingeniously endeavoured to convey a contrary impression to the +House. + +It is not proposed to go into the policy of the war. And there is +another question that it is not proposed to go into. It is not proposed +to inquire whether Sir Alexander Burnes or Lord Auckland was Governor- +General. We know that Lord Auckland was Governor-General; but we know +that a Governor-General who may be many hundreds, or in India, perhaps, +2,000 miles away from the place where particular events are transpiring, +must rely to a considerable extent on the information he receives from +the political agent who is on the spot. If this be so, clearly what Sir +Alexander Burnes thought, and what he said, and what he wrote, is of +some importance. At least, if the House of Commons has any evidence +placed before it, the noble Lord will agree that in a great question +like this--I am not speaking of the present time, but of the time when +these events happened--it is of first-rate importance that the House +should have evidence not on one side only, but on both sides. There is +another thing we do not propose to inquire into, and that is the policy +of Russia at that time. I cannot very well understand the course which +the noble Lord has taken on this point; for I find that about twelve +months after the writing of these very despatches, the mutilation of +which is now complained of, the noble Lord made a reply to the Russian +Minister who had declared that there was nothing whatever hostile to +England in the instructions which were furnished to Vicovich. He says-- + + 'There has not existed the smallest design hostile to the English + Government, nor the smallest idea of endangering the tranquillity + of the British possessions in India.' + +The noble Lord, in reply to that, on the 20th December, 1838, just a +year after the writing of these despatches by Sir Alexander Burnes, +said:-- + + 'Her Majesty's Government accept as entirely satisfactory the + declaration of the Russian Government that it does not harbour + any designs hostile to the interests of Great Britain in India.' + +I may leave that question there, because I can assure the noble Lord +that my hon. and learned Friend has not the smallest intention--I judge +so, at least, from his speech--of bringing anybody before the Committee +to attack or defend the policy of the Government in the war which then +unhappily took place. Nor do I suppose it is intended to arraign anybody +for a policy that sacrificed at least 20,000 human lives--20,000 lives +of the subjects of the Queen of England. Nor is it intended to inquire +how far the loss of more than 15,000,000_l_. sterling by that +policy has affected for all future time the finances and the +circumstances of the Government of India. These are crimes--the whole of +that policy is a crime--of a nature never to be answered for. No man can +accurately measure it. No Committee of this House could adequately +punish those who were the perpetrators of it. No, Sir, my hon. and +learned Friend has not the slightest idea of going back twenty years for +the purpose of bringing the noble Lord, or any one else who may be +guilty of that great crime, to the bar of public opinion by this +Committee. + +But it is worth while that the House should know whether the Government +in whom it placed confidence at that time, and in whom the Queen placed +confidence--whether that Government was worthy of their confidence, and +whether any members of the Government of that day are members of the +Government at this day. It is worth while knowing whether there was and +is a man in high position in the Government here or in India who had so +low a sense of honour and of right that he could offer to this House +mutilated, false, forged despatches and opinions of a public servant, +who lost his life in the public service. Conceive any man at this moment +in India engaged, as many have been during the last three years, in +perilous services--conceive that any man should know that to-morrow, or +next week, or any time this year, he may lay his bones in that distant +land, and that six months afterwards there may be laid on the table of +this House by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, or by the +Secretary of State for India, letters or despatches of his from which +passages have been cut out, and into which passages have been inserted, +in which words have been so twisted as wholly to divert and distort his +meaning, and to give to him a meaning, it may be, utterly the contrary +to that which his original despatch intended to convey. I cannot +conceive any anticipation more painful or more bitter, more likely to +eat into the heart of any man engaged in the service of his country in a +distant land. + +It is admitted, and the noble Lord has not flatly denied it--he cannot +deny it--he knows it as well as the hon. and learned Member for +Greenock--he knows it as well as the very man whose hand did the evil-- +he knows there have been garbling, mutilation, practically and +essentially falsehood and forgery, in these despatches which have been +laid before the House. Why was it refused to give the original +despatches when they were asked for in 1842 by the hon. Member for +Inverness-shire (Mr. H. Baillie), and when they were asked for at a +later period by the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield)? Why was it +that the originals were so consistently withheld? That they have been +given now I suppose is because those who were guilty of the outrage on +the faith of Parliament thought, as twenty years had elapsed, that +nobody would give himself the trouble to go into the question, and that +no man would be so earnest as my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock in +bringing the question before the notice of Parliament. + +My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield) informs me that +it was the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley) who +consented to the production of the original despatches when he was in +office. I was not aware of that fact; but I am free here to tender him +my thanks for the course which he took. I am sure he is the last man +whom any one would suspect of being mixed up in any transaction of this +kind, except with a view to give the House and the country full +information with regard to it. I say, then, avoiding all the long speech +of the noble Lord, that the object of the Committee is to find out who +did this evil thing--who placed upon the table of the House information +which was knowingly false, and despatches that were actually forged-- +because if you add to or detract from, or so change a coin, or note, or +deed, as to make any of them bear a meaning contrary to its original and +intended meaning, of course you are guilty of such an act as I have +described, and that is precisely what somebody has done in the +despatches which we are now discussing. I say an odious offence has been +committed against the House, and against the truth; and what we want to +know is, who did it? + +Now, will the noble Lord be candid enough--he does not think there is +anything wrong--he says there is not much--it is very trifling--that Sir +Alexander Burnes's opinions are not worth much--supposing it to be so-- +for the sake of argument, let me grant it; but if it is a matter of no +importance, will the noble Lord be so candid as to tell us who did it? +When Lord Broughton was examined before the Official Salaries Committee +some years ago, he, as the noble Lord is aware, said that he took upon +himself as President of the Board of Control at the time the entire +responsibility of the Affghan war. The noble Lord now at the head of the +Government was then a member of the India Board, and so I believe was +the noble Lord the Member for the City of London. But the noble Lord at +the head of the Government was also Secretary for Foreign Affairs. Now, +I do not think I am wrong in supposing that this question lies between +the noble Lord the Prime Minister and Lord Broughton, once a Member of +this House. This thing was not done by some subordinate who cannot be +found out. + +My hon. and learned Friend says it has been done with marvellous care, +and even with so much ability that it must have been done by a man of +genius. Of course there are men of genius in very objectionable walks of +life; but we know that the noble Lord at the head of the Government is a +man of genius; if he had not been, he would not have sat on that bench +for the last fifty years. And we know that Lord Broughton is a man of +many and varied accomplishments. And once more I ask the noble Lord to +tell us who did it? He knows who did it. Was it his own right-hand, or +was it Lord Broughton's right-hand, or was it some clever secretary in +the Foreign Office or in the India Office who did this work? I say the +House has a right to know. We want to know that. We want to drag the +delinquent before the public. This we want to know, because we wish to +deter other Ministers from committing the like offence; and we want to +know it for that which most of all is necessary--to vindicate the +character and honour of Parliament. Nothing can sink Parliament to a +lower state of degradation and baseness than that it should permit +Ministers of the Crown to lay upon the table, upon questions involving +the sacrifice of 20,000,000_l_. of money and 20,000 lives, +documents which are not true--which slander our public servants, and +which slander them most basely when they are dead and are not here to +answer. I do not believe that the Gentlemen of England in this House-- +upon that side of the House or upon this--will ever consent to sit down +with a case proved so clearly as this is without directing the +omnipotent power and eye of Parliament into the matter. I say, seeing +the charge, seeing that the noble Lord was at the head of the Foreign +Office at the time, that the policy of the Affghan war was always +considered to be his, that the responsibility of this act must rest +between him and Lord Broughton,--I should not like to hold the opinion, +and I do not hold the opinion, that the noble Lord will object to a +Committee to inquire into a matter in which he is himself so directly +concerned. + + * * * * * + +CANADA. + +I. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 13, 1865. + +_From Hansard_. +[Delivered during the debate on Colonel Jervois' Report on the Defences +of Canada.] + +I am not sure that I should have addressed the House on this occasion +but for the observations which have been made by the noble Lord. I think +he has been perhaps a little more frank in his declarations on this +occasion, and in pointing out the real thing which I suspect is passing +in his mind, and in the minds of very many Members of the House who have +made no statement of their own opinions during this debate. I hope the +debate will be useful, although I am obliged to say, while I admit the +importance of the question that has been brought before us, that I think +it is one of some delicacy. That it is important is clear, because it +refers to the possibility of war between this country and the United +States, and its delicacy arises from this--that it is very difficult to +discuss this question without saying things which tend rather in the +direction of war than in the direction of peace. + +The difficulty which is now before us is this--that there is an +extensive colony or dependency of this country lying adjacent to the +United States, and if there be a war party in the United States--a party +hostile to this country--that circumstance affords to it a very strong +temptation to enter without much hesitation into a war with England, +because it may feel that through Canada it can inflict a great +humiliation upon this country. And at the same time it is perfectly well +known to all intelligent men, especially to the statesmen and public men +of the United States--it is as well known to them as it is to us--that +there is no power whatever in this United Kingdom to defend successfully +the territory of Canada against the power of the United States. Now we +ought to know that, in order to put ourselves right upon this question, +and that we may not talk folly and be called upon hereafter to act +folly. The noble Lord at the head of the Government--or the Government, +at any rate is responsible for having compelled this discussion; because +if a Vote is to be asked for during this Session--and it is only the +beginning of other Votes--it is clearly the duty of the House to bring +the subject under discussion. I think the Vote now is particularly +inopportune for many reasons, but especially as we have heard from the +Governor-General of Canada that they are about, in the North-American +Provinces, to call into existence a new nationality; and I, for one, +shall certainly object to the taxes of this country being heedlessly +expended in behalf of any nationality but our own. + +Now, what I should like to ask the House is this--first of all, will +Canada attack the States? Clearly not. Next, will the States attack +Canada--I am keeping out of view England altogether? Clearly not. There +is not a man in the United States, probably, whose voice or whose +opinion would have the smallest influence in that country, who would +recommend or desire that an attack should be made by the United States +upon Canada with a view to its forcible annexation to the Union. There +have been lately, as we know, dangers on the frontier. The Canadian +people have been no wiser than some Members of this House--or than a +great many men amongst the richer classes in this country. And when the +refugees from the South--I am not speaking now of respectable and +honourable men from the South, many of whom have left that country +during these troubles, and for whom I feel the greatest commiseration, +but I mean the ruffians from the South--who in large numbers have +entered Canada and have employed themselves there in a course of policy +likely to embroil us with the United States--I say that the people of +Canada have treated these men with far too much consideration. They +expressed very openly opinions hostile to the United States, whose power +lay close to them. + +I will not go into a detail of that which we are all sufficiently well +acquainted with--the seizing of American ships on the Lakes, the raid +into the State of Vermont, the robbing of a bank, the killing of a man +in his own shop, the stealing of horses in open day, and another +transaction of which we have very strong proof, that men of this class +actually conspired to set fire to the largest cities of the Union. All +these things have taken place and the Canadian Government made scarcely +any sign. I believe that an application was made to the noble Lord at +the head of the Foreign Office nearly a year ago, that he should +stimulate the Canadian Government to some steps to avoid the dangers +that have since arisen; but with that sort of negligence which has been +so much seen here, nothing was done until the American Government and +people, aroused by the nature of these transactions, showed that they +were no longer about to put up with them. Then the Canadian Government +and people took a little notice. Now, Lord Monck, the Governor-General +of Canada--about whose appointment I have heard some people complain, +saying that he was a mere follower of the noble Lord at the head of the +Government, who lost his election and was therefore sent out to govern a +province--Lord Monck, I am bound to say, from all I have heard from +Canada, has conducted himself in a manner very serviceable to the +colony, and with the greatest possible propriety as representing the +Sovereign there. Lord Monck has been all along favourable to the United +States, and I believe his Cabinet has also. I know that at least the +most important newspaper there has always been favourable to the North. +Still nothing was done; but the moment these troubles arose then +everything was done. Volunteers have been sent to the frontier; the +trial of the raiders has been proceeded with, and possibly they will be +surrendered; and the Canadian Chancellor of the Exchequer has proposed a +vote in their House of Parliament to restore to the persons at St. +Albans, who were robbed by the raiders, the 50,000 dollars that were +taken from them. + +And what is the state of things now? There is the greatest possible calm +on the frontier. The United States have not a word to say against +Canada. The Canadian people have found that they were in the wrong and +have now returned to their right mind. There is not a man in Canada at +this moment, I believe, who has any idea that the United States +Government has the smallest notion of attacking them, now or at any +future time, on account of anything that has transpired between the +United States and Canada during these trials. But if there comes a war +in which Canada shall suffer and be made a victim, it will be a war got +up between the Government of Washington and the Government of London. +And it becomes us to inquire whether that is at all probable. Is there +anybody in this House in favour of such a war? I notice with general +delight--and I was not a false prophet when I said some time ago that +some day it would be so--I say I notice with delight the changed tone +manifested here with regard to these American questions. Even the noble +Lord the Member for Stamford (Lord Robert Cecil) can speak without +anger, and without any of that ill feeling which I am sorry to say on +past occasions he has manifested in discussing these questions. + +Now, I believe there are no men out of Bedlam--or at least who ought to +be out of it--and I suspect there are very few men in Bedlam, who are in +favour of our going to war with the United States. And in taking this +view I am not arguing that it is because we see the vast naval and +military power and apparently inexhaustible resources of that country. I +will not assume that you or my countrymen have come to the conclusion +that it is better for us not to make war with America, because you and +they find her with a strength that you did not even suspect: I will say +that it is upon higher grounds that we are all against a war with the +United States. Our history for the last 200 years, and further back, is +a record of calamitous, and for the most part, unnecessary wars. We have +had enough of whatever a nation can gain by military successes and +military glory. I will not turn to the disasters that might follow to +our commerce nor to the wide-spread ruin that might be occasioned. I +will say that we are a wiser and a better people than we were in these +respects, and that we should regard a war with the United States as even +a greater crime, if needlessly entered into, than war with almost any +other country in the world. + +Looking at our Government, we have preserved, with a good many blunders-- +one or two of which I shall comment upon by-and-by--neutrality during +this great struggle. We have had it stated in this House, and we have +had a Motion in this House, that the blockade was ineffective and ought +to be broken. Men of various classes, some of them agents of the +Richmond conspiracy--persons, it is said, of influence from France--all +these are reported to have brought their influence to bear on the noble +Lord at the head of the Government and his colleagues, with a view of +inducing them to take part in this quarrel, and all this has failed to +break our neutrality. Therefore, I should say, we may clearly come to +the conclusion that England is not in favour of war; and if there should +be any act of war, or any aggression whatever, out of which Canada will +suffer, I believe honestly that it will not come from this country. That +is a matter which gives me great satisfaction, and I believe the House +will agree with me that I am not misstating the case. + +Now let us ask, Is the United States for war? I know the noble Lord the +Member for Stamford (Lord Robert Cecil) has a lurking idea that there is +some danger from that quarter; I am not at all certain that it does not +prevail in other minds, and in many minds not so acute as that with +which the noble Lord is gifted. If we had at the Bar of the House, Lord +Russell as representing the English Government, and Mr. Adams as the +representative of the Government of President Lincoln, and if we were to +ask their opinion, they would tell us that which the Secretary for the +Colonies has this night told us--that the relations between the two +countries, so far as it is possible to discover them, are perfectly +amicable; and I know from the communications between the Minister of the +United States and our Minister for Foreign Affairs that they have been +growing more and more amicable for many months past. Now, I take the +liberty of expressing this opinion--that there has never been an +administration in the United States since the time of the Revolutionary +War, up to this hour, more entirely favourable to peace with all foreign +countries, and more especially favourable to peace with England, than +the Government of which President Lincoln is the head. I will undertake +to say that the most exact investigator of what has taken place will not +be able to point to a single word he--President Lincoln--has said, or a +single line he has written, or a single act he has done, since his first +accession to power, that betrays anger against this country, or any of +that vindictive feeling which some persons here may imagine to inflame +the breasts of the President and his Cabinet. + +Then if Canada is not for war, if England is not for war, and if the +United States are not for war, whence is the war to come? That is what I +should like to ask. I wish the noble Lord the Member for Stamford had +been a little more frank. I should like to ask whence comes the anxiety, +which undoubtedly to some extent prevails? It may be assumed even that +the Government is not wholly free from it; for they have shown it in an +almost ludicrous manner by proposing a vote of 50,000_l_. It is +said the newspapers have got into a sort of panic. They can do that any +night between the hours of six and twelve o'clock, when they write their +articles. They are either very courageous or very panic-stricken. + +It is said that 'the City' joins in this feeling. We know what 'the +City' means--the right hon. Gentleman alluded to it to-night. It means +that the people who deal in shares--though that does not describe the +whole of them--'the moneyed interest' of the City, are alarmed. Well, I +never knew the City to be right. Men who are deep in great monetary +transactions, and who are steeped to the lips sometimes in perilous +speculations, are not able to take broad and dispassionate views of +political questions of this nature. + +As to the newspapers, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for +Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) when, referring to one of them in +particular, he intimated that he thought its course was indicated by a +wish to cover its own confusion. Surely, after four years' uninterrupted +publication of lies with regard to America, I should think it has done +pretty much to destroy its influence on foreign questions for ever. + +But there is a much higher authority--that is the authority of the +Peers. I do not know why we should be so much restricted with regard to +the House of Lords in this House. I think I have observed that in their +place they are not so squeamish as to what they say about us. It +appeared to me that in this debate the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. +Disraeli) felt it necessary to get up and endeavour to defend his chief. +Now, if I were to give advice to the hon. Gentlemen opposite, it would +be this--for while stating that during the last four years many noble +Lords in the other House have said foolish things, I think I should be +uncandid if I did not say that you also have said foolish things--learn +from the example set you by the right hon. Gentleman. He, with a +thoughtfulness and statesmanship which you do not all acknowledge, he +did not say a word from that bench likely to create difficulty with the +United States. I think his chief and his followers might learn something +from his example. + +But I have discovered one reason why in that other place mistakes of +this nature are so often made. Not long ago there was a great panic +raised, very much by what was said in another place about France. Now an +attempt is made there to create a panic upon this question. In the hall +of the Reform Club there is affixed to the wall a paper which gives a +telegraphic account of what is being done in this House every night, and +what is also being done in the other House, and I find almost every +night from the beginning of the Session that the only words that have +appeared on the side which is devoted to a record of the proceedings of +the House of Lords are these, 'Lords adjourned.' The noble Lord at the +head of the Government is responsible for much of this. He has brought +this House into nearly the same condition. We do very little, and they +do absolutely nothing. All of us in our younger days, I am quite sure, +were taught by those who had the care of us a verse which was intended +to inculcate the virtue of industry. One couplet was to this effect-- + + 'Satan still some mischief finds + For idle hands to do.' + +And I do not believe that men, however high in station, are exempt from +that unfortunate effect which arises to all of us from a course of +continued idleness. But I should like to ask this House in a most +serious mood, what is the reason that any man in this country has now +more anxiety with regard to the preservation of peace with the United +States than he had a few years ago? Is there not a consciousness in our +heart of hearts that we have not during the last five years behaved +generously to our neighbours? Do not we feel in some sort a pricking of +conscience, and are we not sensible that conscience tends to make us +cowards at this particular juncture? + +I shall not review the past transactions with anger, but with feelings +of sorrow; for I maintain, and I think history will bear out what I say, +that there is no generous and high-minded Englishman who can look back +upon the transactions of the last four years without a feeling of sorrow +at the course we have pursued on some important occasions. As I am +wishful to speak with a view to a better state of feeling, both in this +country and in the United States, I shall take the liberty, if the House +will permit me for a few minutes, to refer to two or three of these +transactions, where, I think, though perhaps we were not in the main +greatly wrong, yet in some circumstances we were so far unfortunate as +to have created an irritation which at this moment we wish did not +exist. The hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Seymour Fitzgerald) referred to +the course taken by the Government with regard to the acknowledgment of +the belligerent rights of the South. Now I have never been one to +condemn the Government for acknowledging those belligerent rights, +except upon this ground--I think it might be logically contended that it +might possibly have become necessary to take that step--but I do think +the time and manner in which it was done were most unfortunate, and +could not but produce very evil effects. + +Going back nearly four years, we recollect what occurred when the news +arrived of the first shot having been fired at Fort Sumter. That, I +think, was about the 12th of April. Immediately after that time it was +announced that a new Minister was coming to this country. Mr. Dallas had +intimated to the Government that as he did not represent the new +President he would rather not undertake anything of importance; but that +his successor was on his way and would arrive on such a day. When a man +leaves New York on a given day you can calculate to about twelve hours +when he will be in London. Mr. Adams, I think, arrived in London about +the 13th of May, and when he opened his newspaper next morning he found +the Proclamation of neutrality, acknowledging the belligerent rights of +the South. I say that the proper course to have taken would have been to +have waited till Mr. Adams arrived here, and to have discussed the +matter with him in a friendly manner, explaining the ground upon which +the English Government had felt themselves bound to issue that +Proclamation, and representing that it was not done in any manner as an +unfriendly act towards the United States Government. But no precaution +whatever was taken; it was done with unfriendly haste; and it had this +effect, that it gave comfort and courage to the conspiracy at Montgomery +and at Richmond, and caused great grief and irritation amongst that +portion of the people of America who were most strongly desirous of +maintaining friendly relations between their country and England. + +To illustrate this point allow me to suppose a great revolt had taken +place in Ireland, and that we had sent over within a fortnight of the +occurrence of such an unfortunate event a new Minister to Washington, +and that on the morning after arriving there he had found, that without +consulting him, the Government had taken a hasty step by which the +belligerent rights of the insurgents had been acknowledged, and by which +comfort and support had been given them. I ask any man whether, under +such circumstances, the feeling throughout the whole of Great Britain, +and in the mind of every man anxious to preserve the unity of Great +Britain and Ireland, would not necessarily be one of irritation and +exasperation against the United States? + +I will not argue this matter further--to do so would be simply to +depreciate the intellect of the hon. Gentlemen listening to me. Seven or +eight months afterwards there happened another transaction of a very +different but unfortunate nature--that is the transaction arising out of +the seizure of two Southern envoys on board an English ship--the +_Trent_. I recollect making a speech down at Rochdale about the +time of that occurrence. It was a speech entirely in favour of the +United States Government and people--but I did not then undertake, as I +do not undertake now, in the slightest degree to defend the seizure of +those two envoys. I said that although precedents for such an action +might possibly be found to have occurred in what I will call some of the +evil days in our history, at any rate it was opposed to the maxims and +principles of the United States Government, and was, as I thought, a bad +act--an act which should not have been done. Well, I do not complain of +the demand that those men should be given up; but I do complain of the +manner in which that demand was made, and the menaces by which it was +accompanied. I think it was wrong and unstatesman-like that at the +moment we heard of the seizure, when there was not the least foundation +for supposing that the United States Government were aware of the act, +or had in the slightest degree sanctioned it, as we since well know they +did not, that we should immediately get ships ready, and send off +troops, and incite the organs of the press--who are always too ready to +inflame the passions of the people to frenzy--to prepare their minds for +war. + +But that was not all; because before the United States had heard a word +of the matter from this country their Secretary of State had written to +Mr. Adams a despatch, which was communicated to our Government, and in +which it was stated that the transaction had not been done by any orders +of theirs, and that therefore, as far as they and we were concerned, it +was a pure accident, which they should consider with the most friendly +disposition towards this country. How came it that this despatch was +never published for the information of the people of this country? How +happened it that, during one whole month the flame of war was fanned by +the newspapers, particularly by those supposed to be devoted to the +Government, and that one of those newspapers, supposed to be peculiarly +devoted to the Prime Minister, had the audacity--I do not know whence it +obtained its instructions--to deny that any such despatch had been +received? Now, Sir, I am of opinion that it is not possible to maintain +amicable relations with any great country--I think it is not possible to +do so with any little one--unless Governments will manage these +transactions in what I will call a more courteous and more honourable +manner. I happen to know--for I received a letter from the United +States, from one of the most eminent men in that country, dated only two +days before those men were given up, in which the writer said--that the +real difficulty in the course of the President was that the menaces of +the English Government had made it almost impossible for them to +concede; and that the question they asked themselves was whether the +English Government was intending to seek a cause of quarrel or not. And +I am sure the noble Lord at the head of the Government, if such a demand +had been made upon him with courtesy and fairness, as should be between +friendly nations, would have been more disposed to concede, and would +have found it much more easy to concede, than if the demand had been +accompanied by menaces such as his Government offered to the Government +of the United States. Now the House will observe that I am not +condemning the Government of this country on the main point of what they +did. I am only condemning them because they did not do what they had to +do in that manner which would be most likely to remove difficulties and +preserve a friendly feeling between the two nations. + +Then I come to the last thing I shall mention--to the question of the +ships which have been preying upon the commerce of the United States. I +shall confine myself to that one vessel, the _Alabama_. She was +built in this country; all her munitions of war were from this country; +almost every man on board her was a subject of Her Majesty. She sailed +from one of our chief ports. She is known to have been built by a firm +in which a Member of this House was, and I presume is, interested. Now, +Sir, I do not complain--I know that once, when I referred to this +question two years ago, when my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford +brought it forward in this House, the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. +Laird) was excessively angry--I do not complain that the Member for +Birkenhead has struck up a friendship with Captain Semmes, who may +probably be described, as another sailor once was of similar pursuits, +as being 'the mildest mannered man that ever scuttled ship.' Therefore, +I do not complain of a man who has an acquaintance with that notorious +person, and I do not complain, and did not then, that the Member for +Birkenhead looks admiringly upon the greatest example which men have +ever seen of the greatest crime which men have ever committed. I do not +complain even that he should applaud that which is founded upon a +gigantic traffic in living flesh and blood--a traffic into which no +subject of this realm can enter without being deemed a felon in the eyes +of our law and punished as such. But what I do complain of is this, that +the hon. Gentleman the Member for Birkenhead, a magistrate of a county, +a deputy-lieutenant--whatever that may be--a representative of a +constituency, and having a seat in this ancient and honourable Assembly-- +that he should, as I believe he did, if concerned in the building of +this ship, break the law of his country, by driving us into an +infraction of International Law, and treating with undeserved disrespect +the Proclamation of neutrality of the Queen. + +I have another complaint to make, and in allusion to that hon. Member. +It is within your recollection that when on a former occasion he made +that speech and defended his course, he declared that he would rather be +the builder of a dozen _Alabamas_ than do something which nobody +has done. That language was received with repeated cheering from the +Opposition side of the House. Well, Sir, I undertake to say that that +was at least a most unfortunate circumstance, and I beg to tell the hon. +Gentleman that at the end of last Session, when the great debate took +place on the question of Denmark, there were many men on this side of +the House who had no objection whatever to see the present Government +turned out of office, for they had many grounds of complaint against +them, but they felt it impossible that they should take the +responsibility of bringing into office the right hon. Member for +Buckinghamshire or the party who could utter such cheers on such a +subject as that. + +Turning from the Member for Birkenhead to the noble Lord at the head of +the Foreign Office, he, who in the case of the acknowledgment of +belligerent rights had proceeded with such remarkable celerity, such +undue and unfriendly haste, amply compensated for it when he came to the +question of the _Alabama_, by his slowness of procedure. And this +is a strange circumstance, which even the noble Lord's Colleagues have +never been able to explain, that although he sent orders to Cork to stop +the _Alabama_ if she arrived there, he allowed her afterwards, when +she had gone out of the jurisdiction of the Crown in these islands, to +go into a dozen or a score of ports belonging to this country in +different parts of the world. It seems to me that this is rather a +special instance of that feebleness of purpose and of action on the part +of the noble Lord which I regret to say has on many occasions done much +to mar what would otherwise be a great political career. I will not +detain the House on the question of the rams. The hon. Member for +Birkenhead, or the firm or the family, or whoever the people are at +Birkenhead who do these things, this firm at Birkenhead, after they had +seen the peril into which the country was drifting on account of the +_Alabama_, proceeded most audaciously to build those two rams; and +it was only at the very last moment, when on the eve of a war with the +United States on account of those rams, that the Government happily had +the courage to seize them, and thus the last danger was averted. + +I suppose there are some shipowners here. I know there are many in +London--there are many in Liverpool--what would be the feeling in this +country if they suffered in this way from ships built in the United +States? There is a shipowner in New York, Mr. Lowe, a member of the +Chamber of Commerce of New York. He had three large ships destroyed by +the _Alabama_; and the _George Griswold_, which came to this +country freighted with a heavy cargo of provisions of various kinds for +the suffering people of Lancashire, was destroyed on her return passage, +and the ship that destroyed it may have been, and I believe was, built +by these patriotic shipbuilders of Birkenhead. These are things that +must rankle in the breast of a country which is subjected to such losses +and indignities. Even to-day I see in the newspapers that a vessel that +went out from this country has destroyed ten or eleven ships between the +Cape of Good Hope and Australia. I have thought it unnecessary to bring +continually American questions before the House, as some Gentlemen have +done during the last two or three Sessions. They should have asked a few +questions in regard to these ships; but no, they asked no question upon +these points. They asked questions upon every point on which they +thought they might embarrass the Government and make the great +difficulties of the Government greater in all their transactions with +the United States. + +But the Members of the Government have not been wise. I hope it will not +be thought that I am unnecessarily critical if I say that Governments +are not generally very wise. Two years ago the noble Lord at the head of +the Government and the Attorney-General addressed the House. I asked the +noble Lord--I do not often ask him for anything--to speak, if only for +five minutes, words of generosity and sympathy to the Government and +people of the United States. He did not do it. Perhaps I was foolish to +expect it. The Attorney-General made a most able speech. It was the only +time that I have listened to him, ever since I have known him in this +House, with pain, for I thought his speech was full of bad morals and +bad law. I am quite certain that he even gave an account of the facts of +the case which was not as ingenuous and fair as the House had a right to +expect from him. Next Session the noble Lord and the Attorney-General +turned quite round. They had a different story about the same +transaction, and gradually, as the aspect of things was changed on the +other side of the Atlantic, there has been a gradual return to good +sense and fairness, not only on the part of Members upon the Treasury +Bench, but on that of other Members of the House. + +Now, Sir, I would not willingly say a word that would wound either the +noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office or the Chancellor of the +Exchequer, because I do not know amongst the official statesmen of this +country two men for whom I have greater sympathy or more respect; but I +have to complain of them. I do not know why it is that they both go down +to Newcastle--a town in which I feel a great interest--and there give +forth words of offence and unwisdom. I know that what the noble Lord +said was all very smart, but really it was not true, and I have not much +respect for a thing that is merely smart and is not true. The Chancellor +of the Exchequer made a statement too. The papers made it appear that he +did it with exultation; but that is a mistake. But he made a statement, +and though I do not know what will be in his Budget, I know his wishes +in regard to that statement--namely, that he had never made it. + +Those Gentlemen, bear in mind, sit, as it were, on a hill; they are not +obscure men, making speeches in a public-house or even at a respectable +mechanics' institution; they are men whose voice is heard wherever the +English language is known. And knowing that, and knowing what effect +their speeches will have, especially in Lancashire, where men are in +trade, and where profits and losses are affected by the words of +statesmen, they use the language of which I complain; and beyond this, +for I can conceive some idea of the irritation those statements must +have caused in the United States. I might refer to the indiscriminating +abuse of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Sheffield; and I +may add to that the unsleeping ill-will of the noble Lord the Member for +Stamford. I am not sure that these two Members of the House are in the +least degree converted yet. I think I heard the hon. Member for +Sheffield utter to-night some ejaculation that looked as if he retained +all his old sentiments. [Mr. Roebuck: 'Exactly.'] I am sorry it is so. I +did expect that these things would be regretted and repented of; and I +must express my hope that if any one of you who have been thus +ungenerous shall ever fall into trouble of any kind that you will find +your friends more kind and more just than you have been to your fellow- +countrymen--for I will still call them so--at the other side of the +Atlantic. And as to the press, Sir, I think it is unnecessary to say +much about that, because every night those unfortunate writers are now +endeavouring to back out of everything they have been saying; and I can +only hope that their power for evil in future will be greatly lessened +by the stupendous exhibition of ignorance and folly which they have made +to the world. + +Now, Sir, having made this statement, I suppose the noble Lord the +Member for Stamford, if he were to get up after me, would say: 'Well, if +all this be true--if we have done all these injurious things, if we have +created all this irritation in the United States--will it not be likely +that this irritation will provoke a desire for vengeance, and that the +chances of war are greatly increased by it?' I do not know whether the +chances of war are increased, but I will say that not only is war not +certain, but it is to the last degree improbable. + +But, Sir, there is another side to this question. All England is not +included in the rather general condemnation which I have thought it my +duty to express. There is another side. Looking to our own population, +what have the millions been saying and doing--the millions you are so +much afraid of?--especially the noble Lord the Member for Stamford, who +objects to the transference of power to those millions from those who +now hold it, and, from his position, naturally objects. I beg leave to +tell the House that, taking the counties of Lancashire and Yorkshire-- +your great counties of population--the millions of men there, whose +industry has not only created but sustains the fabric of your national +power, have had no kind of sympathy with the views which I have been +condemning. They have been more generous and more wise; they have shown +that magnanimity and love of freedom are not extinct. And, speaking of +the county from which I come--the county of many sorrows, whose griefs +have hung like a dark cloud over almost every heart during the last +three years--all the attempts which the agents of the Confederacy have +made there by money, by printing, by platform speeches, by agitation, +have utterly failed to get from that population one expression of +sympathy with the American insurrection. And, Sir, if the bond of union +and friendship between England and America shall remain unbroken, we +shall not have to thank the wealthy and the cultivated, but those +laborious millions whom statesmen and histories too frequently take +little account of. They know a little of the United States, which +Gentlemen opposite and some on this side the House do not appear to +know. They know that every man of them would be better off on the +American continent, if he chose to go there, and would be welcome to +every right and privilege that the people there are in possession of. +They know further that every man may have from the United States +Government a free gift of 160 acres of the most fertile land in the +world. [A laugh.] I do not understand that laugh, but the gift, under +the Homestead Act of America, of 160 acres of land is a great deal for a +man who has no land. I can tell you that the Homestead Act and the +liberality of the American Government have had a great effect upon the +population of the North of England, and I can tell you further--that the +labouring population of this country--the artisans and the mechanics-- +will never join heartily in any policy which is intended to estrange the +people of the United States from the people of the United Kingdom. + +But, Sir, we have other securities for peace which are not less than +these, and I find them in the character of the Government and people of +the American Union. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for +Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) referred to what must reasonably be +supposed to happen in case this rebellion should be put down--that when +a nation is exhausted it will not rush rashly into a new struggle. The +loss of life has been great, the loss of treasure enormous. Happily for +them, this life and this treasure have not been sacrificed to keep a +Bourbon on the throne of France, or to keep the Turks in Europe; the +sacrifice was for an object which every man could comprehend, which +every man could examine by the light of his own intelligence and his own +conscience; for if these men have given their lives and their +possessions, it was for the attainment of a great end, the maintenance +of the unity and integrity of a great country. History in future time +must be written in a different spirit from all history in the past, if +it should express any condemnation of that people. Mr. Lincoln, who is +now for the second time President of the United States, was elected +exclusively by what was termed the Republican party. He is now elected +by what may be called the Great Union party of the nation. But Mr. +Lincoln's party has always been for peace. That party in the North has +never carried on any war of aggression, and has never desired one. I +speak of the North only, the Free States. And let the House remember +that in that country landed property, property of all kind, is more +universally distributed than in any other nation, that instruction and +school education are also more widely diffused there than amongst any +other people. I say, they have never carried on hitherto a war for +aggrandizement or for vengeance, and I believe they will not begin one +now. + +Canada, I think the noble Lord will admit, is a very tempting bait, not +indeed for the purpose of annexation, but for the purpose of humiliating +this country. I agree with hon. Gentlemen who have said that it would be +discreditable to England, in the light of her past history, that she +should leave any portion of her Empire which she could defend, +undefended. But still it is admitted--and I think the speech of the +right hon. Gentleman the Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe) produced a great +effect upon those who heard it--the House admitted that in case of war +with the United States, Canada could not be defended by any power on +land or at sea which this country could raise or spare for that purpose. +I am very sorry, not that we cannot defend Canada, but that any portion +of the dominions of the British Crown is in such circumstances as to +tempt evil-disposed people to attack it with the view of humiliating us, +because I believe that transactions which humiliate a Government and a +nation are not only disagreeable, but a great national harm. + +But, now, is there a war party in the United States? I believe there is +such a party. It is that party which was a war party eighty years ago. +It is the party represented by hon. Gentlemen who sit on that bench--the +Irish party. They who are hostile to this country in the United States +are those who were recently malcontent subjects of the right hon. +Gentleman the Member for Tamworth. It is these, and such as these, to +whom the noble Lord at the head of the Government offers only such +consolation as that of telling them that 'the rights of the tenants are +the wrongs of the landlords,' who constitute the only war party in the +United States; and it was the war party there in the days of Lord North. +But the real power of the United States does not rest on that class. +American mobs--and, excepting some portion of the population of New +York, I would not apply the language even to them--for the sake of +forcing their Congress and their Executive to a particular course, are +altogether unknown. The real mob in your sense, is that party of +chivalrous gentlemen in the South, who have received, I am sorry to say, +so much sympathy from some persons in this country and in this House. +But the real power depends upon another class--the landowners throughout +the country, and there are millions of them. In this last election for +President of the United States, I was told by a citizen of New York, who +was most active in the election, that in the State of New York alone +100,000 Irish votes were given, as he expressed it, solidly--that is, in +one mass--for General M'Clellan, and that not more than 2,000 were given +for President Lincoln. You see the preponderance of that party in the +city of New York, and that is the feeling amongst them throughout the +State of New York; but, throughout the whole of the United States, it is +merely a small per-centage, which has no sensible effect upon the +constitution of Congress, or upon legislation or government. + +My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) referred to a +point which I suppose has really been the cause of this debate, and that +is the temper of the United States in making certain demands upon our +Government. I asked a question the other night after the noble Lord had +asked a question upon the subject--I asked whether we had not claims +against them. I understand that claims were made upon us by the United +States amounting to 300,000_l_. or 400,000_l_. I am afraid +that we have claims against them, amounting probably to as much as that. +If any man thinks he has a right to go to law with another, and that +other has an answer to his claim, the case must be heard. And so between +two great nations and two free Governments. If one has claims against +the other, and the other has counter claims, clearly nothing can be more +fair than that those claims should be courteously and honestly +considered. It is quite absurd to suppose that the English Government +and the Government at Washington can have a question about half a +million of money which they cannot amicably settle. The noble Lord, I +believe, thinks it is not a question for arbitration, but that it is a +question of principle. Well, all questions of property almost are +questions of law, and you go to a lawyer and settle them if you can. In +this case it would be surely as easy to have the matter settled by some +impartial person as it was to ask the Senate or other authority at +Hamburg to settle a question between this country and the Empire of +Brazil. Our most perfect security is, that as the war in America draws +to a close--if it should happily soon draw to a close--we shall become +more generous to them, and their Government and people will probably +become less irritated towards us. And when the passions have cooled +down, I am quite sure that Mr. Seward on that side and Earl Russell on +this, Mr. Adams here and Sir Frederick Bruce there, will be able, +without much difficulty, to settle this, which is, after all, an +unimportant matter, as a question of accounts between the two nations. + +I have only one more observation to make, and it is this--I suspect the +root of all the unfortunate circumstances that have occurred is the +feeling of jealousy which we have cherished with regard to the American +nation. It was very much shown at the beginning of this war, when a +Member whom I will not name, for I am sure his wish is that his name +should not be mentioned in connection with it now, spoke of the bursting +of the bubble republic. I recollect that Lord John Russell, as he then +was speaking from that bench, turned round and rebuked him in language +which was worthy of his name, and character, and position. I beg to tell +that Gentleman, and anybody else who talks about a bubble republic, that +I have a strong suspicion he will see that a great many bubbles will +burst before that. Why should we fear a great nation on the American +continent? Some people fear that, should America become a great nation, +she will be arrogant and aggressive. It does not follow that it should +be so. The character of a nation does not depend altogether upon its +size, but upon the instruction, the civilization, and the morals of its +people. You fancy the supremacy of the sea will pass away from you; and +the noble Lord, who has had much experience, and is supposed to be wiser +on the subject than any other man in the House, will say that 'Rule +Britannia' may become obsolete. Well, inasmuch as the supremacy of the +seas means arrogance and the assumption of a dictatorial power on the +part of this country, the sooner that becomes obsolete the better. I do +not believe that it is for the advantage of this country, or of any +country in the world, that any one nation should pride itself upon what +is termed the supremacy of the sea; and I hope the time is coming--I +believe the hour is hastening--when we shall find that law and justice +will guide the councils and will direct the policy of the Christian +nations of the world. Nature will not be baffled because we are jealous +of the United States--the decrees of Providence will not be overthrown +by aught we can do. + +The population of the United States is now not less than 35,000,000. +When the next Parliament of England has lived to the age which this has +lived to, that population will be 40,000,000, and you may calculate the +increase at the rate of rather more than 1,000,000 of persons per year. +Who is to gainsay it? Will constant snarling at a great republic alter +this state of things, or swell us up in these islands to 40,000,000 or +50,000,000, or bring them down to our 30,000,000? Hon. Members and the +country at large should consider these facts, and learn from them that +it is the interest of the nations to be at one--and for us to be in +perfect courtesy and amity with the great English nation on the other +side of the Atlantic. I am sure that the longer that nation exists the +less will our people be disposed to sustain you in any needless +hostility against them or jealousy of them. And I am the more convinced +of this from what I have seen of the conduct of the people in the north +of England during the last four years. I believe, on the other hand, +that the American people, when this excitement is over, will be willing, +so far as aggressive acts against us are concerned, to bury in oblivion +transactions which have given them much pain, and that they will make +the allowance which they may fairly make, that the people of this +country--even those high in rank and distinguished in culture--have had +a very inadequate knowledge of the real state of the events which have +taken place in that country since the beginning of the war. + +It is on record that when the author of _The Decline and Fall of the +Roman Empire_ was about to begin his great work, David Hurne wrote a +letter to him urging him not to employ the French but the English +tongue, 'because' he said, 'our establishments in America promise +superior stability and duration to the English language.' How far that +promise has been in part fulfilled we who are living now can see; but +how far it will be more largely and more completely fulfilled in after +times we must leave after times to tell. I believe that in the centuries +which are to come it will be the greatest pride and the highest renown +of England that from her loins have sprung a hundred millions--it may be +two hundred millions--of men who dwell and prosper on that continent +which the grand old Genoese gave to Europe. Sir, if the sentiments which +I have uttered shall become the sentiments of the Parliament and people +of the United Kingdom--if the moderation which I have described shall +mark the course of the Government and of the people of the United +States--then, notwithstanding some present irritation and some present +distrust--and I have faith both in us and in them--I believe that these +two great commonwealths will march abreast, the parents and the +guardians of freedom and justice, wheresoever their language shall be +spoken and their power shall extend. + + * * * * * + +CANADA. + +II. + +THE CANADIAN FORTIFICATIONS. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 23, 1865. +I shall ask the attention of the House for only a few moments. If the +hon. Member (Mr. Bentinck) divides, I shall go into the same lobby with +him. I am afraid that, in making that announcement, I shall excite some +little alarm in the mind of the hon. Gentleman. I wish therefore to say, +that I shall not in going into the lobby agree with him in many of the +statements he has made. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) said, +that he approached the military question with great diffidence, and I +was very glad to see any signs of diffidence in that quarter. After that +explanation, he asked the House with a triumphant air whether there is +any difficulty in defending a frontier of one thousand or fifteen +hundred miles, and whether the practicability of doing so is a new +doctrine in warfare. But one thousand or fifteen hundred miles of +frontier to defend at the centre of your power, is one thing; but at +three thousand or four thousand miles from the centre, it is an entirely +different thing. I venture to say, that there is not a man in this +House, or a sensible man out of it, who, apart from the consideration of +this vote, or some special circumstances attending it, believes that the +people of this country could attempt a successful defence of the +frontier of Canada against the whole power of the United States. I said +the other night, that I hoped we should not now talk folly, and +hereafter, in the endeavour to be consistent, act folly. We all know +perfectly well that we are talking folly when we say that the Government +of this country would send either ships or men to make an effectual +defence of Canada against the power of the United States, supposing war +to break out. Understand, I am not in the least a believer in the +probability of war, but I will discuss the question for one moment as if +war were possible. I suppose some men in this House think it probable. +But if it be possible or probable, and if you have to look this +difficulty in the face, there is no extrication from it but in the +neutrality or independence of Canada. + +I agree with those Members who say that it is the duty of a great empire +to defend every portion of it. I admit that as a general proposition, +though hon. Gentlemen opposite, and some on this side, do not apply that +rule to the United States. But, admitting that rule, and supposing that +we are at all points unprepared for such a catastrophe, may we not, as +reasonable men, look ahead, and try if it be not possible to escape from +it? [An hon. Member: 'Run away?'] No, not by running away, though there +are many circumstances in which brave men run away; and you may get into +difficulty on this Canadian question, which may make you look back and +wish that you had run away a good time ago. I object to this vote on a +ground which, I believe, has not been raised by any Member in the +present discussion. I am not going to say that the expenditure of fifty +thousand pounds is a matter of great consequence to this country, that +the expenditure of this money in the proposed way will be taken as a +menace by the United States. I do not think that this can be fairly +said; for whether building fortifications at Quebec be useless or not, +such a proceeding is not likely to enable the Canadians to overrun the +State of New York. The United States, I think, will have no right to +complain of this expenditure. The utmost it can do will be to show them +that some persons, and perhaps the Government of this country, have some +little distrust of them, and so far it may do injury. I complain of the +expenditure and the policy announced by the Colonial Secretary, on a +ground which I thought ought to have been urged by the noble Lord the +Member for Wick, who is a sort of half-Canadian. He made a speech which +I listened to with great pleasure, and told the House what some of us, +perhaps, did not know before; but if I had been connected, as he is, +with Canada, I would have addressed the House from a Canadian point of +view. + +What is it that the Member for Oxford says? He states, in reference to +the expenditure for the proposed fortifications, that, though a portion +of the expenditure is to be borne by us, the main portion is to be borne +by Canada; but I venture to tell him, that, if there shall be any +occasion to defend Canada at all, it will not arise from anything Canada +does, but from what England does; and therefore I protest against the +doctrine that the Cabinet in London may get into difficulties, and +ultimately into war, with the Cabinet at Washington; that because Canada +lies adjacent to the United States, and may consequently become a great +battle-field, this United Kingdom has a right to call on Canada for the +main portion of that expenditure. Who has asked you to spend fifty +thousand pounds, and the hundreds of thousands which may be supposed to +follow, but which perhaps Parliament may be indisposed hereafter to +grant? What is the proportion which Canada is to bear? If we are to +spend two hundred thousand pounds at Quebec, is Canada to spend four +hundred thousand pounds at Montreal? If Canada is to spend double +whatever we may spend, is it not obvious that every Canadian will ask +himself--what is the advantage of the connection between Canada and +England? + +Every Canadian knows perfectly well, and nobody better than the noble +Lord the Member for Wick, that there is no more prospect of a war +between Canada and the United States alone, than between the Empire of +France and the Isle of Man. If that is so, why should the Canadians be +taxed beyond all reason, as the Colonial Secretary proposes to tax them, +for a policy not Canadian, and for a calamity which, if ever it occurs, +must occur from some transactions between England and the United States? +There are Gentlemen here who know a good deal of Canada, and I see +behind me one who knows perfectly well what is the condition of the +Canadian finances. We complain that Canada levies higher duties on +British manufactures than the United States did before the present war, +and much higher than France does. But when we complain to Canada of +this, and say it is very unpleasant usage from a part of our empire, the +Canadians reply that their expenditure is so much, and their debt, with +the interest on it, so much, that they are obliged to levy these heavy +duties. If the Canadian finances are in the unfortunate position +described; if the credit of Canada is not very good in the market of +this country; if you see what are the difficulties of the Canadians +during a period of peace; consider what will be their difficulties if +the doctrine of the Colonial Secretary be carried out, which is that +whatever expenditure is necessary for the defence of Canada, though we +bear a portion, the main part must be borne by Canada. + +We must then come to this inevitable conclusion. Every Canadian will +say, 'We are close alongside of a great nation; our parent state is +three thousand miles away; there are litigious, and there may be even +warlike, people in both nations, and they may occasion the calamity of a +great war; we are peaceable people, having no foreign politics, happily; +we may be involved in war, and while the cities of Great Britain are not +touched by a single shell, nor one of its fields ravaged, there is not a +city or a village in this Canada in which we live which will not be +liable to the ravages of war on the part of our powerful neighbour.' +Therefore the Canadians will say, unless they are unlike all other +Englishmen (who appear to have more sense the farther they go from their +own country), that it would be better for Canada to be disentangled from +the politics of England, and to assume the position of an independent +state. + +I suspect from what has been stated by official Gentlemen in the present +Government and in previous Governments, that there is no objection to +the independence of Canada whenever Canada may wish it. I have been glad +to hear those statements, because I think they mark an extraordinary +progress in sound opinions in this country. I recollect the noble Lord +at the head of the Foreign Office on one occasion being very angry with +me, he said I wished to make a great empire less; but a great empire, +territorially, may be lessened without its power and authority in the +world being diminished. I believe if Canada now, by a friendly +separation from this country, became an independent state, choosing its +own form of government--monarchical, if it liked a monarchy, or +republican, if it preferred a republic--it would not be less friendly to +England, and its tariff would not be more adverse to our manufactures +than it is now. In the case of a war with America, Canada would then be +a neutral country; and the population would be in a state of greater +security. Not that I think there is any fear of war, but the Government +admit that it may occur by their attempt to obtain money for these +fortifications. I object, therefore, to this vote, not on that account, +nor even because it causes some distrust, or may cause it, in the United +States; but I object to it mainly because I think we are commencing a +policy which we shall either have to abandon, because Canada will not +submit to it, or else which will bring upon Canada a burden in the shape +of fortification expenditure that will make her more and more +dissatisfied with this country, and that will lead rapidly to her +separation from us. I do not object to that separation in the least; I +believe it would be better for us and better for her. But I think that, +of all the misfortunes which could happen between us and Canada, this +would be the greatest, that her separation should take place after a +period of irritation and estrangement, and that we should have on that +continent to meet another element in some degree hostile to this +country. + +I am sorry, Sir, that the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and +his colleagues, have taken this course; but it appears to me to be +wonderfully like almost everything which the Government does. It is a +Government apparently of two parts, the one part pulling one way and the +other part pulling another, and the result generally is something which +does not please anybody, or produce any good effect in any direction. +They now propose a scheme which has just enough in it to create distrust +and irritation, enough to make it in some degree injurious, and they do +not do enough to accomplish any of the objects for which, according to +their statements, the proposition is made. Somebody asked the other +night whether the Administration was to rule, or the House of Commons. +Well, I suspect from the course of the debates, that on this occasion +the Administration will be allowed to rule. We are accustomed to say +that the Government suggests a thing on its own responsibility, and +therefore we will allow them to do it. But the fact is, that the +Government knows no more of this matter than any other dozen gentlemen +in this House. They are not a bit more competent to form an opinion upon +it. They throw it down on the table, and ask us to discuss and vote it. + +I should be happy to find the House, disregarding all the intimations +that war is likely, anxious not to urge Canada into incurring an +expenditure which she will not bear, and which, if she will not bear, +must end in one of two things--either in throwing the whole burden upon +us, or in breaking up, perhaps suddenly and in anger, the connection +between us and that colony, and in making our future relations with her +most unsatisfactory. I do not place much reliance on the speech of the +right honourable Member for Buckinghamshire, not because he cannot judge +of the question just as well as I or any one of us can do, but because I +notice that in matters of this kind Gentlemen on that (the Opposition) +bench, whatever may have been their animosities towards the Gentlemen on +this (the Treasury) bench on other questions, shake hands. They may tell +you that they have no connection with the House over the way, but the +fact is, their connection is most intimate. And if the right honourable +Member for Buckinghamshire were now sitting on the Treasury bench, and +the noble Viscount were sitting opposite to him, the noble Viscount, I +have no doubt, would give him the very same support that he now receives +from the right hon. Gentleman. + +This seems to me a question so plain, so much on the surface, appealing +so much to our common sense, having in it such great issues for the +future, that I am persuaded it is the duty of the House of Commons on +this occasion to take the matter out of the hands of the executive +Government, and to determine that, with regard to the future policy of +Canada, we will not ourselves expend the money of the English tax- +payers, and not force upon the tax-payers of Canada a burden which, I am +satisfied, they will not long continue to bear. + + * * * * * + +CANADA. + +III. + +THE CANADIAN CONFEDERATION SCHEME. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 28, 1867. +Although this measure has not excited much interest in the House or in +the country, yet it appears to me to be of such very great importance +that it should be treated rather differently, or that the House should +be treated rather differently in respect to it. I have never before +known of any great measure affecting any large portion of the empire or +its population which has been brought in and attempted to be hurried +through Parliament in the manner in which this bill is being dealt with. +Eat the importance of it is much greater to the inhabitants of those +provinces than it is to us. It is on that account alone that it might be +expected we should examine it closely, and see that we commit no error +in passing it. + +The right hon. Gentleman has not offered us, on one point, an +explanation which I think he will be bound to make. This bill does not +include the whole of the British North American Provinces. I presume the +two left out have been left out because it is quite clear they did not +wish to come in. [Mr. Adderley: 'I am glad I can inform the hon. +Gentleman that they are, one of them at least, on the point of coming +in.'] Yes; the reason of their being left out is because they were not +willing to come in. They may hereafter become willing, and if so the +bill will admit them by a provision which appears reasonable. But the +province of Nova Scotia is also unwilling to come in, and it is assumed +that because some time ago the Legislature of that province voted a +resolution partly in favour of some such course, therefore the +population is in favour of it. + +For my part, I do not believe in the propriety or wisdom of the +Legislature voting on a great question of this nature with reference to +the Legislature of Nova Scotia, if the people of Nova Scotia have never +had the question directly put to them. I have heard there is at present +in London a petition complaining of the hasty proceeding of Parliament, +and asking for delay, signed by 31,000 adult males of the province of +Nova Scotia, and that that petition is in reality signed by at least +half of all the male inhabitants of that province. So far as I know, the +petition does not protest absolutely against union, but against the +manner in which it is being carried out by this scheme and bill, and the +hasty measures of the Colonial Office. Now, whether the scheme be a good +or bad one, scarcely anything can be more foolish, looking to the +future, than that any of the provinces should be dragged into it, either +perforce, by the pressure of the Colonial Office, or by any hasty action +on the part of Parliament, in the hope of producing a result which +probably the populations of those provinces may not wish to see brought +about. + +I understand that the general election for the Legislature of Nova +Scotia, according to the constitution of that colony, will take place in +the month of May or June next; that this question has never been fairly +placed before the people of that province at an election, and that it +has never been discussed and decided by the people; and seeing that only +three months or not so much will elapse before there will be an +opportunity of ascertaining the opinions of the population of Nova +Scotia, I think it is at least a hazardous proceeding to pass this bill +through Parliament, binding Nova Scotia, until the clear opinion of that +province has been ascertained. If, at a time like this, when you are +proposing a union which we all hope is to last for ever, you create a +little sore, it will in all probability become a great sore in a short +time, and it may be that the intentions of Parliament will be almost +entirely frustrated by the haste with which this measure is being pushed +forward. + +The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I think, in +the early part of the evening, in answer to a question from this side, +spoke of this matter as one of extreme urgency. Well, I cannot discover +any urgency in the matter at all. What is urgent is this, that when done +it ought to be done wisely, and with the full and free consent of all +those populations who are to be bound by this Act and interested in its +results. Unless the good-will of those populations is secured, in all +probability the Act itself will be a misfortune rather than a blessing +to the provinces to which it refers. + +The right hon. Gentleman amused me in one part of his speech. He spoke +of the filial piety--rather a curious term--of these provinces, and +their great anxiety to make everything suit the ideas of this country; +and this was said particularly with reference to the proposition for a +Senate selected, not elected, for life, by the Governor-General of +Canada. He said they were extremely anxious to follow as far as possible +the institutions of the mother country. I have not the smallest +objection to any people on the face of the earth following our +institutions if they like them. Institutions which suit one country, as +we all know, are not very likely to suit every other country. With +regard to this particular case, the right hon. Gentleman said it is to +be observed that Canada has had a nominated council, and has changed it +for an elected one, and that surely they had a right if they pleased to +go back from an elected council to a nominated council. Well, nobody +denies that, but nobody pretends that the people of Canada prefer a +nominated council to an elected council. And all the wisdom of the wise +men to whom the right hon. gentleman the member for Oxford has referred +in such glowing terms, unless the experience of present and past times +goes for nothing, is but folly if they have come to the conclusion that +a nominated council on that continent must be better than an elected +council. Still, if they wish it, I should not interfere and try to +prevent it. But I venture to say that the clause enabling the Governor- +General and his Cabinet to put seventy men in that council for life +inserts into the whole scheme the germ of a malady which will spread, +and which before very long will require an alteration of this Act and of +the constitution of this new Confederation. + +But the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that with regard to the +representative assembly--which, I suppose, is to be called according to +his phrase the House of Commons--they have adopted a very different +plan. There they have not followed the course of this country. They have +established their House of Representatives directly upon the basis of +population. They have adopted the system which prevails in the United +States, which upon every ten years' summing up of the census in that +country the number of members may be changed, and is by law changed in +the different States and districts as the rate of population may have +changed. Therefore, in that respect his friends in Canada have not +adopted the principle which prevails in this country, but that which +prevails in the United States. I believe they have done that which is +right, and which they have a right to do, and which is inevitable there. +I regret very much that they have not adopted another system with regard +to their council or senate, because I am satisfied--I have not a +particle of doubt with regard to it that we run a great danger of making +this Act work ill almost from the beginning. + +They have the example of thirty-six States in the United States, in +which the Senate is elected, and no man, however sanguine, can hope that +seventy-two stereotyped provincial peers in Canada will work +harmoniously with a body elected upon a system so wide and so general as +that which prevails in the States of the American Union. There is one +point about which the right hon. Gentleman said nothing, and which I +think is so very important that the Member for Oxford, his predecessor +in office, might have told us something about it. We know that Canada is +a great country, and we know that the population is, or very soon will +be, something like 4,000,000, and we may hope that, united under one +government, the province may be more capable of defence. But what is +intended with regard to the question of defence? Is everything to be +done for the province? Is it intended to garrison its fortresses by +English troops? At the present moment there are, I believe, in the +province 12,000 or 15,000 men. + +There are persons in this country, and there are some also in the North +American provinces, who are ill-natured enough to say that not a little +of the loyalty that is said to prevail in Canada has its price. I think +it is natural and reasonable to hope that there is in that country a +very strong attachment to this country. But if they are to be constantly +applying to us for guarantees for railways, and for grants for +fortresses, and for works of defence, then I think it would be far +better for them and for us--cheaper for us and less demoralising for +them--that they should become an independent State, and maintain their +own fortresses, fight their own cause, and build up their own future +without relying upon us. And when we know, as everybody knows, that the +population of Canada is in a much better position as regards the +comforts of home, than is the great bulk of the population of this +country, I say the time has come when it ought to be clearly understood +that the taxes of England are no longer to go across the ocean to defray +expenses of any kind within the Confederation which is about to be +formed. + +The right hon. Gentleman has never been an advocate for great +expenditure in the colonies by the mother country. On the contrary, he +has been one of the members of this House who have distinguished +themselves by what I will call an honest system for the mother country, +and what I believe is a wise system for the colonies. But I think that +when a measure of this kind is being passed, having such stupendous +results upon the condition and the future population of these great +colonies, we have a right to ask that there should be some consideration +for the revenue and for the taxpayers of this country. In discussing +this Bill with the delegates from the provinces, I think it was the duty +of the Colonial Secretary to have gone fairly into this question, and, +if possible, to have arranged it to the advantage of the colony and the +mother country. + +I believe there is no delusion greater than this--that there is any +party in the United States that wishes to commit any aggression upon +Canada, or to annex Canada by force to the United States. There is not a +part of the world, in my opinion, that runs less risk of aggression than +Canada, except with regard to that foolish and impotent attempt of +certain discontented not-long-ago subjects of the Queen, who have left +this country. America has no idea of anything of the kind. No American +statesman, no American political party, dreams for a moment of an +aggression upon Canada, or of annexing Canada by force. And therefore, +every farthing that you spend on your fortresses, and all that you do +with the idea of shutting out American aggression, is money squandered +through an hallucination which we ought to get rid of. I have not risen +for the purpose of objecting to the second reading of this Bill. Under +the circumstances, I presume it is well that we should do no other than +read it a second time. But I think the Government ought to have given a +little more time. I think they have not treated the province of Nova +Scotia with that tenderness, that generosity, and that consideration +which is desirable when you are about to make so great a change in its +affairs and in its future. For my share, I want the population of these +provinces to do that which they believe to be best for their own +interests--to remain with this country if they like it, in the most +friendly manner, or to become independent States if they wish it. If +they should prefer to unite themselves with the United States, I should +not complain even of that. But whatever be their course, there is no man +in this House or in those provinces who has a more sincere wish for +their greatness and their welfare than I have who have taken the liberty +thus to criticise this Bill. + + * * * * * + +AMERICA. + +I. + +THE 'TRENT' AFFAIR. + +ROCHDALE, DECEMBER 4, 1861. + +[During the excitement caused by the seizure of Messrs. Mason and +Slidell, the envoys of the Slaveholders' Confederation, on board the +_Trent_ steamer, Mr. Bright's townsmen invited him to a Public +Banquet, that they might have the opportunity of hearing his opinions on +the American Civil War, and on the duty of England in regard to it. This +speech was delivered on the occasion of that Banquet.] + +When the Gentlemen who invited me to this dinner called upon me, I felt +their kindness very sensibly, and now I am deeply grateful to my friends +around me, and to you all, for the abundant manifestations of kindness +with which I have been received to-night. I am, as you all know, +surrounded at this moment by my neighbours and friends, and I may say +with the utmost truth, that I value the good opinions of those who now +hear my voice far beyond the opinions of any equal number of the +inhabitants of this country selected from any other portion of it. You +have, by this act of kindness that you have shown me, given proof that, +in the main, you do not disapprove of my course and labours, that at +least you are willing to express an opinion that the motives by which I +have been actuated have been honest and honourable to myself, and that +that course has not been entirely without service to my country. Coming +to this meeting, or to any similar meeting, I always find that the +subjects for discussion appear too many, and far more than it is +possible to treat at length. In these times in which we live, by the +influence of the telegraph, and the steamboat, and the railroad, and the +multiplication of newspapers, we seem continually to stand as on the top +of an exceeding high mountain, from which we behold all the kingdoms of +the earth and all the glory of them,--unhappily, also, not only their +glory, but their follies, and their crimes, and their calamities. + +Seven years ago, our eyes were turned with anxious expectation to a +remote corner of Europe, where five nations were contending in bloody +strife for an object which possibly hardly one of them comprehended, +and, if they did comprehend it, which all sensible men amongst them must +have known to be absolutely impracticable. Four years ago, we were +looking still further to the East, where there was a gigantic revolt in +a great dependency of the British Crown, arising mainly from gross +neglect, and from the incapacity of England, up to that moment, to +govern the country which it had known how to conquer. Two years ago, we +looked South, to the plains of Lombardy, and saw a great strife there, +in which every man in England took a strong interest; and we have +welcomed, as the result of that strife, the addition of a great kingdom +to the list of European States. Now, our eyes are turned in a contrary +direction, and we look to the West. There we see a struggle in progress +of the very highest interest to England and to humanity at large. We see +there a nation which I shall call the Transatlantic English nation--the +inheritor and partaker of all the historic glories of this country. We +see it torn with intestine broils, and suffering from calamities from +which for more than a century past--in fact, for more than two centuries +past--this country has been exempt. That struggle is of especial +interest to us. We remember the description which one of our great poets +gives of Rome,-- + + 'Lone mother of dead empires.' + +But England is the living mother of great nations on the American and on +the Australian continents, which promise to endow the world with all her +knowledge and all her civilization, and with even something more than +the freedom she herself enjoys. + +Eighty-five years ago, at the time when some of our oldest townsmen were +very little children, there were, on the North American continent, +Colonies, mainly of Englishmen, containing about three millions of +souls. These Colonies we have seen a year ago constituting the United +States of North America, and comprising a population of no less than +thirty millions of souls. We know that in agriculture and manufactures, +with the exception of this kingdom, there is no country in the world +which in these arts may be placed in advance of the United States. With +regard to inventions, I believe, within the last thirty years, we have +received more useful inventions from the United States than from all the +other countries of the earth. In that country there are probably ten +times as many miles of telegraph as there are in this country, and there +are at least five or six times as many miles of railway. The tonnage of +its shipping is at least equal to ours, if it does not exceed ours. The +prisons of that country--for, even in countries the most favoured, +prisons are needful--have been models for other nations of the earth; +and many European Governments have sent missions at different times to +inquire into the admirable system of education so universally adopted in +their free schools throughout the Northern States. + +If I were to speak of that country in a religious aspect, I should say +that, considering the short space of time to which their history goes +back, there is nothing on the face of the earth besides, and never has +been, to equal the magnificent arrangement of churches and ministers, +and of all the appliances which are thought necessary for a nation to +teach Christianity and morality to its people. Besides all this, when I +state that for many years past the annual public expenditure of the +Government of that country has been somewhere between 10,000,000_l_. and +15,000,000_l_., I need not perhaps say further, that there has always +existed amongst all the population an amount of comfort and prosperity +and abounding plenty such as I believe no other country in the world, in +any age, has enjoyed. + +This is a very fine, but a very true picture; yet it has another side to +which I must advert. There has been one great feature in that country, +one great contrast, which has been pointed to by all who have commented +upon the United States as a feature of danger, as a contrast calculated +to give pain. There has been in that country the utmost liberty to the +white man, and bondage and degradation to the black man. Now rely upon +it, that wherever Christianity lives and flourishes, there must grow up +from it, necessarily, a conscience hostile to any oppression and to any +wrong; and therefore, from the hour when the United States Constitution +was formed, so long as it left there this great evil--then comparatively +small, but now so great--it left there seeds of that which an American +statesman has so happily described, of that 'irrepressible conflict' of +which now the whole world is the witness. It has been a common thing for +men disposed to carp at the United States to point to this blot upon +their fair fame, and to compare it with the boasted declaration of +freedom in their Deed and Declaration of Independence. But we must +recollect who sowed this seed of trouble, and how and by whom it has +been cherished. + +Without dwelling upon this stain any longer, I should like to read to +you a paragraph from the instructions understood to have been given to +the Virginian delegates to Congress, in the month of August, 1774., by +Mr. Jefferson, who was perhaps the ablest man the United States had +produced up to that time, and who was then actively engaged in its +affairs, and who afterwards for two periods filled the office of +President. He represented one of these very Slave States--the State of +Virginia--and he says:-- + + 'For the most trifling reasons, and sometimes for no conceivable + reason at all, his Majesty has rejected laws of the most salutary + tendency. The abolition of domestic slavery is the great object + of desire in those Colonies where it was unhappily introduced in + their infant state. But previous to the enfranchisement of the + slaves we have, it is necessary to exclude all further + importations from Africa. Yet our repeated attempts to effect + this by prohibition, and by imposing duties which might amount to + prohibition, have hitherto been defeated by his Majesty's + negative,--thus preferring the immediate advantages of a few + British corsairs to the lasting interests of the American States, + and to the rights of human nature, deeply wounded by this + infamous practice.' + +I read this merely to show that, two years before the Declaration of +Independence was signed, Mr. Jefferson, acting on behalf of those he +represented in Virginia, wrote that protest against the course of the +English Government which prevented the Colonists from abolishing the +slave trade, preparatory to the abolition of slavery itself. + +Well, the United States Constitution left the slave question for every +State to manage for itself. It was a question too difficult to settle +then, and apparently every man had the hope and belief that in a few +years slavery itself would become extinct. Then there happened a great +event in the annals of manufactures and commerce. It was discovered that +in those States that article which we in this country now so much depend +on, could be produced of the best quality necessary for manufacture, and +at a moderate price. From that day to this the growth of cotton has +increased there, and its consumption has increased here, and a value +which no man dreamed of when Jefferson wrote that paper has been given +to the slave and to slave industry. Thus it has grown up to that +gigantic institution which now threatens either its own overthrow or the +overthrow of that which is a million times more valuable--the United +States of America. + +The crisis at which we have arrived--I say 'we,' for, after all, we are +nearly as much interested as if I was making this speech in the city of +Boston or the city of New York--the crisis, I say, which has now +arrived, was inevitable. I say that the conscience of the North, never +satisfied with the institution of slavery, was constantly urging some +men forward to take a more extreme view of the question; and there grew +up naturally a section--it may not have been a very numerous one--in +favour of the abolition of slavery. A great and powerful party resolved +at least upon a restraint and a control of slavery, so that it should +not extend beyond the States and the area which it now occupies. But, if +we look at the Government of the United States almost ever since the +formation of the Union, we shall find the Southern power has been mostly +dominant there. If we take thirty-six years after the formation of the +present Constitution--I think about 1787--we shall find that for thirty- +two of those years every President was a Southern man; and if we take +the period from 1828 until 1860, we shall find that, on every election +for President, the South voted in the majority. + +We know what an election is in the United States for President of the +Republic. There is a most extensive suffrage, and there is the ballot- +box. The members of the House of Representatives are elected by the same +suffrage, and generally they are elected at the same time. It is thus +therefore almost inevitable that the House of Representatives is in +accord in public policy with the President for the time being. Every +four years there springs from the vote created by the whole people a +President over that great nation. I think the world offers no finer +spectacle than this; it offers no higher dignity; and there is no +greater object of ambition on the political stage on which men are +permitted to move. You may point, if you will, to hereditary rulers, to +crowns coming down through successive generations of the same family, to +thrones based on prescription or on conquest, to sceptres wielded over +veteran legions and subject realms,--but to my mind there is nothing so +worthy of reverence and obedience, and nothing more sacred, than the +authority of the freely chosen by the majority of a great and free +people; and if there be on earth and amongst men any right divine to +govern, surely it rests with a ruler so chosen and so appointed. + +Last year the ceremony of this great election was gone through, and the +South, which had been so long successful, found itself defeated. That +defeat was followed instantly by secession, and insurrection, and war. +In the multitude of articles which have been before us in the newspapers +within the last few months, I have no doubt you have seen it stated, as +I have seen it, that this question was very much like that upon which +the Colonies originally revolted against the Crown of England. It is +amazing how little some newspaper writers know, or how little they think +you know. When the War of Independence was begun in America, ninety +years ago, there were no representatives there at all. The question then +was, whether a Ministry in Downing-street, and a corrupt and borough- +mongering Parliament, should continue to impose taxes upon three +millions of English subjects, who had left their native shores and +established themselves in North America. But now the question is not the +want of representation, because, as is perfectly notorious, the South is +not only represented, but is represented in excess; for, in distributing +the number of representatives, which is done every ten years, three out +of every five slaves are counted as freemen, and the number of +representatives from the Slave States is consequently so much greater +than if the freemen, the white men only, were counted. From this cause +the Southern States have twenty members more in the House of +Representatives than they would have if the members were apportioned on +the same principle as in the Northern Free States. Therefore you will +see at once that there is no comparison between the state of things when +the Colonies revolted, and the state of things now, when this wicked +insurrection has broken out. + +There is another cause which is sometimes in England assigned for this +great misfortune, which is, the protective theories in operation in the +Union, and the maintenance of a high tariff. It happens with regard to +that, unfortunately, that no American, certainly no one I ever met with, +attributed the disasters of the Union to that cause. It is an argument +made use of by ignorant Englishmen, but never by informed Americans. I +have already shown you that the South, during almost the whole existence +of the Union, has been dominant at Washington; and during that period +the tariff has existed, and there has been no general dissatisfaction +with it. Occasionally, there can be no doubt, their tariff was higher +than was thought just, or reasonable, or necessary by some of the States +of the South. But the first Act of the United States which levied duties +upon imports, passed immediately after the Union was formed, recited +that 'It is necessary for the encouragement and protection of +manufactures to levy the duties which follow;' and during the war with +England from 1812 to 1815, the people of the United States had to pay +for all the articles they brought from Europe many times over the +natural cost of those articles, on account of the interruption to the +traffic by the English nation. + +When the war was over, it was felt by everybody desirable that they +should encourage manufactures in their own country; and seeing that +England at that precise moment was passing a law to prevent any wheat +coming from America until wheat in England had risen to the price of +84_s_. per quarter, we may be quite satisfied that the doctrine of +protection originally entertained did not find less favour at the close +of the war in 1815. + +There is one remarkable point with regard to this matter which should +not be forgotten. Twelve months ago, at the meeting of the Congress of +the United States, on the first Monday in December--when the Congress +met, you recollect that there were various propositions of compromise, +committee meetings of various kinds to try and devise some mode of +settling the question between the North and the South, so that disunion +might not go on--though I read carefully everything published in the +English papers from the United States on the subject, I do not recollect +that in a single instance the question of the tariff was referred to, or +any change proposed or suggested in the matter as likely to have any +effect whatever upon the question of Secession. + +There is another point,--whatever might be the influence of the tariff +upon the United States, it is as pernicious to the West as it is to the +South; and further, that Louisiana, which is a Southern State and a +seceded State, has always voted along with Pennsylvania until last year +in favour of protection--protection for its sugar, whilst Pennsylvania +wished protection for its coal and iron. But if the tariff was onerous +and grievous, was that any reason for this great insurrection? Was there +ever a country that had a tariff, especially in the article of food, +more onerous and more cruel than that which we had in this country +twenty years ago? We did not secede. We did not rebel. What we did was +to raise money for the purpose of distributing among all the people +perfect information upon the question; and many men, as you know, +devoted all their labours, for several years, to teach the great and +wise doctrine of free trade to the people of England. The price of a +single gunboat, the equipment of a single regiment, the garrisoning of a +single fort, the cessation of their trade for a single day, cost more +than it would have cost to have spread among all the intelligent people +of the United States the most complete statement of the whole case; and +the West and South could easily have revised, or, if need had been, have +repealed the tariff altogether. + +The question is a very different and a far more grave question. It is a +question of slavery, and for thirty years it has constantly been coming +to the surface, disturbing social life, and overthrowing almost all +political harmony in the working of the United States. In the North +there is no secession; there is no collision. These disturbances and +this insurrection are found wholly in the South and in the Slave States; +and therefore I think that the man who says otherwise, who contends that +it is the tariff, or anything whatsoever else than slavery, is either +himself deceived or endeavours to deceive others. The object of the +South is this, to escape from the majority who wish to limit the area of +slavery. They wish to found a Slave State freed from the influence and +opinions of freedom. The Free States in the North now stand before the +world as the advocates and defenders of freedom and civilization. The +Slave States offer themselves for the recognition of a Christian nation, +based upon the foundation, the unchangeable foundation in their eyes, of +slavery and barbarism. + +I will not discuss the guilt of the men who, ministers of a great nation +only last year, conspired to overthrow it. I will not point out or +recapitulate the statements of the fraudulent manner in which they +disposed of the funds in the national exchequer. I will not point out by +name any of the men, in this conspiracy, whom history will designate by +titles they would not like to hear; but I say that slavery has sought to +break up the most free government in the world, and to found a new +State, in the nineteenth century, whose corner-stone is the perpetual +bondage of millions of men. + +Having thus described what appears to me briefly the literal truth of +this matter, what is the course that England would be expected to +pursue? We should be neutral as far as regards mingling in the strife. +We were neutral in the strife in Italy; but we were not neutral in +opinion or sympathy; and we know perfectly well that throughout the +whole of Italy at this moment there is a feeling that, though no shot +was fired from an English ship, and though no English soldier trod their +soil, yet still the opinion of England was potent in Europe, and did +much for the creation of the Italian kingdom. + +With regard to the United States, you know how much we hate slavery,-- +that is, some years ago we thought we knew; that we have given twenty +millions sterling,--a million a year, or nearly so, of taxes for ever,-- +to free eight hundred thousand slaves in the English colonies. We knew, +or thought we knew, how much we were in love with free government +everywhere, although it might not take precisely the same form as our +own government. We were for free government in Italy; we were for free +government in Switzerland; and we were for free government, even under a +republican form, in the United States of America; and with all this, +every man would have said that England would wish the American Union to +be prosperous and eternal. + +Now, suppose we turn our eyes to the East, to the empire of Russia, for +a moment. In Russia, as you all know, there has been one of the most +important and magnificent changes of policy ever seen in any country. +Within the last year or two, the present Emperor of Russia, following +the wishes of his father, has insisted upon the abolition of serfdom in +that empire; and twenty-three millions of human beings, lately serfs, +little better than real slaves, have been raised to the ranks of +freedom. Now, suppose that the millions of the serfs of Russia had been +chiefly in the South of Russia. We hear of the nobles of Russia, to whom +those serfs belonged in a great measure, that they have been hostile to +this change; and there has been some danger that the peace of that +empire might be disturbed during the change. Suppose these nobles, for +the purpose of maintaining in perpetuity the serfdom of Russia, and +barring out twenty-three millions of your fellow-creatures from the +rights of freedom, had established a great and secret conspiracy, and +that they had risen in great and dangerous insurrection against the +Russian Government,--I say that you, the people of England, although +seven years ago you were in mortal combat with the Russians in the South +of Europe,--I believe at this moment you would have prayed Heaven in all +sincerity and fervour to give strength to the arm and success to the +great wishes of the Emperor, and that the vile and atrocious +insurrection might be suppressed. + +Well, but let us look a little at what has been said and clone in this +country since the period when Parliament rose at the beginning of +August. There have been two speeches to which I wish to refer, and in +terms of approbation. The Duke of Argyll, a member of the present +Government,--and, though I have not the smallest personal acquaintance +with him, I am free to say that I believe him to be one of the most +intelligent and liberal of his order,--the Duke of Argyll made a speech +which was fair and friendly to the Government of the United States. Lord +Stanley, only a fortnight ago, I think, made a speech which it is +impossible to read without remarking the thought, the liberality, and +the wisdom by which it is distinguished. He doubted, it is true, whether +the Union could be restored. A man need not be hostile, and must not +necessarily be unfriendly, to doubt that or the contrary; but he spoke +with fairness and friendliness of the Government of the United States; +and he said that they were right and justifiable in the course they +took; and he gave us some advice,--which is now more important than at +the moment when it was given,--that amid the various incidents and +accidents of a struggle of this nature, it became a people like this to +be very moderate, very calm, and to avoid, as much as possible, any +feeling of irritation, which sometimes arises, and sometimes leads to +danger. + +I mention these two speeches as from Englishmen of great distinction in +this country--speeches which I believe will have a beneficial effect on +the other side of the Atlantic. Lord John Russell, in the House of +Commons, during the last session, made a speech also, in which he +rebuked the impertinence of a young Member of the House who had spoken +about the bursting of the 'bubble republic.' It was a speech worthy of +the best days of Lord John Russell. But at a later period he spoke at +Newcastle on an occasion something like this, when the inhabitants, or +some portion of the inhabitants, of the town invited him to a public +dinner. He described the contest in words something like these--I speak +from memory only: 'The North is contending for empire, the South for +independence.' Did he mean contending for empire, as England contends +for it when making some fresh conquest in India? If he meant that, what +he said was not true. But I recollect Lord John Russell, some years ago, +in the House of Commons, on an occasion when I made some observation as +to the unreasonable expenditure of our colonies, and said that the +people of England should not be taxed to defray expenses which the +colonies themselves were well able to bear, turned to me with a +sharpness which was not necessary, and said, 'The honourable Member has +no objection to make a great empire into a little one; but I have.' +Perhaps if he had lived in the United States, if he was a member of the +Senate or the House of Representatives there, he would doubt whether it +was his duty to consent at once to the destruction of a great country by +separation, it may be into two hostile camps, or whether he would not +try all the means which were open to him, and would be open to the +Government, to avert so unlooked-for and so dire a calamity. + +There are other speeches that have been made. I will not refer to them +by any quotation,--I will not, out of pity to some of the men who +uttered them. I will not bring their names even before you, to give +them an endurance which I hope they will not otherwise obtain. I leave +them in the obscurity which they so richly merit. But you know as well +as I do, that, of all the speeches made since the end of the last +session of Parliament by public men, by politicians, the majority of +them have either displayed a strange ignorance of American affairs, or a +stranger absence of that cordiality and friendship which, I maintain, +our American kinsmen have a right to look for at our hands. + +And if we part from the speakers and turn to the writers, what do we +find there? We find that which is reputed abroad, and has hitherto been +believed in at home, as the most powerful representative of English +opinion--at least of the richer classes--we find in that particular +newspaper there has not been since Mr. Lincoln took office, in March +last, as President of the United States, one fair and honourable and +friendly article on American affairs. Some of you, I dare say, read it; +but, fortunately, every district is now so admirably supplied with local +newspapers, that I trust in all time to come the people of England will +drink of purer streams nearer home, and not of those streams which are +muddled by party feeling and political intrigue, and by many motives +that tend to anything rather than the enlightenment and advantage of the +people. It is said,--that very paper has said over and over again,--'Why +this war? Why not separate peaceably? Why this fratricidal strife ?' I +hope it is equally averse to fratricidal strife in other districts; for +if it be true that God made of one blood all the families of man to +dwell on the face of all the earth, it must be fratricidal strife +whether we are slaughtering Russians in the Crimea or bombarding towns +on the sea-coast of the United States. + +Now no one will expect that I should stand forward as the advocate of +war, or as the defender of that great sum of all crimes which is +involved in war. But when we are discussing a question of this nature, +it is only fair that we should discuss it upon principles which are +acknowledged not only in the country where the strife is being carried +on, but are universally acknowledged in this country. When I discussed +the Russian war, seven or eight years ago, I always condemned it, on +principles which were accepted by the Government and people of England, +and I took my facts from the blue-books presented to Parliament. I take +the liberty, then, of doing that in this case; and I say that, looking +at the principles avowed in England, and at its policy, there is no man, +who is not absolutely a non-resistant in every sense, who can fairly +challenge the conduct of the American Government in this war. It would +be a curious thing to find that the party in this country which on every +public question affecting England is in favour of war at any cost, when +they come to speak of the duty of the Government of the United States, +is in favour 'of peace at any price.' + +I want to know whether it has ever been admitted by politicians, or +statesmen, or people, that a great nation can be broken up at any time +by any particular section of any part of that nation. It has been tried +occasionally in Ireland, and if it had succeeded history would have said +that it was with very good cause. But if anybody tried now to get up a +secession or insurrection in Ireland,--and it would be infinitely less +disturbing to everything than the secession in the United States, +because there is a boundary which nobody can dispute--I am quite sure +the _Times_ would have its 'Special Correspondent,' and would +describe with all the glee and exultation in the world the manner in +which the Irish insurrectionists were cut down and made an end of. + +Let any man try in this country to restore the heptarchy, do you think +that any portion of the people would think that the project could be +tolerated for a moment? But if you look at a map of the United States, +you will see that there is no country in the world, probably, at this +moment, where any plan of separation between the North and the South, as +far as the question of boundary is concerned, is so surrounded with +insurmountable difficulties. For example, Maryland is a Slave State; but +Maryland, by a large majority, voted for the Union. Kentucky is a Slave +State, one of the finest in the Union, and containing a fine people; +Kentucky has voted for the Union, but has been invaded from the South. +Missouri is a Slave State; but Missouri has not seceded, and has been +invaded by the South, and there is a secession party in that State. +There are parts of Virginia which have formed themselves into a new +State, resolved to adhere to the North; and there is no doubt a +considerable Northern and Union feeling in the State of Tennessee. I +have no doubt there is in every other State. In fact, I am not sure that +there is not now within the sound of my voice a citizen of the State of +Alabama, who could tell you that in his State the question of secession +has never been put to the vote; and that there are great numbers of men, +reasonable and thoughtful and just men, in that State, who entirely +deplore the condition of things there existing. + +Then, what would you do with all those States, and with what we may call +the loyal portion of the people of those States? Would you allow them to +be dragooned into this insurrection, and into the formation or the +becoming parts of a new State, to which they themselves are hostile? And +what would you do with the City of Washington? Washington is in a Slave +State. Would anybody have advised that President Lincoln and his +Cabinet, with all the members of Congress, of the House of +Representatives and the Senate, from the North, with their wives and +children, and everybody else who was not positively in favour of the +South, should have set off on their melancholy pilgrimage northwards, +leaving that capital, hallowed to them by such associations,--having its +name even from the father of their country,--leaving Washington to the +South, because Washington is situated in a Slave State? + +Again, what do you say to the Mississippi River, as you see it upon the +map, the 'father of waters,' rolling its gigantic stream to the ocean? +Do you think that the fifty millions which one day will occupy the banks +of that river northward, will ever consent that its great stream shall +roll through a foreign, and it may be a hostile State? And more, there +are four millions of negroes in subjection. For them the American Union +is directly responsible. They are not secessionists; they are now, as +they always were, not citizens nor subjects, but legally under the care +and power of the Government of the United States. Would you consent that +these should be delivered up to the tender mercies of their taskmasters, +the defenders of slavery as an everlasting institution? + +But if all had been surrendered without a struggle, what then? What +would the writers in this newspaper and other newspapers have said? If a +bare rock in your empire, that would not keep a goat--a single goat-- +alive, be touched by any foreign power, the whole empire is roused to +resistance; and if there be, from accident or passion, the smallest +insult to your flag, what do your newspaper writers say upon the +subject, and what is said in all your towns and upon all your Exchanges? +I will tell you what they would have said if the Government of the +Northern States had taken their insidious and dishonest advice. They +would have said the great Republic was a failure, that democracy had +murdered patriotism, that history afforded no example of such meanness +and of such cowardice; and they would have heaped unmeasured obloquy and +contempt upon the people and Government who had taken that course. + +They tell you, these candid friends of the United States,--they tell you +that all freedom is gone; that the Habeas Corpus Act, if they ever had +one, is known no longer; and that any man may be arrested at the dictum +of the President or of the Secretary of State. Well, but in 1848 you +recollect, many of you, that there was a small insurrection in Ireland. +It was an absurd thing altogether; but what was done then? I saw, in one +night, in the House of Commons, a bill for the suspension of the Habeas +Corpus Act passed through all its stages. What more did I see? I saw a +bill brought in by the Whig Government of that day, Lord John Hussell +being the Premier, which made speaking against the Government and +against the Crown--which up to that time had been sedition--which +proposed to make it felony; and it was only by the greatest exertions of +a few of the Members that the Act, in that particular, was limited to a +period of two years. In the same session a bill was brought in called an +Alien Bill, which enabled the Home Secretary to take any foreigner +whatsoever, not being a naturalized Englishman, and in twenty-four hours +to send him out of the country. Although a man might have committed no +crime, this might be done to him, apparently only on suspicion. + +But suppose that an insurgent army had been so near to London that you +could see its outposts from every suburb of your Capital, what then do +you think would have been the regard of the Government of Great Britain +for personal liberty, if it interfered with the necessities, and, as +they might think, the salvation of the State? I recollect, in 1848, when +the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended in Ireland, that a number of persons +in Liverpool, men there of position and of wealth, presented a petition +to the House of Commons, praying--what? That the Habeas Corpus Act +should not be suspended? No. They were not content with its suspension +in Ireland; and they prayed the House of Commons to extend that +suspension to Liverpool. I recollect that at that time--and I am sure my +friend Mr. Wilson will bear me out in what I say--the Mayor of Liverpool +telegraphed to the Mayor of Manchester, and that messages were sent on +to London nearly every hour. The Mayor of Manchester heard from the +Mayor of Liverpool that certain Irishmen in Liverpool, conspirators, or +fellow-conspirators with those in Ireland, were going to burn the cotton +warehouses in Liverpool and the cotton mills of Lancashire. I read that +petition from Liverpool. I took it from the table of the House of +Commons, and read it, and I handed it over to a statesman of great +eminence, who has been but just removed from us--I refer to Sir James +Graham, a man not second to any in the House of Commons for his +knowledge of affairs and for his great capacity--I handed to him that +petition. He read it; and after he had read it, he rose from his seat, +and laid it upon the table with a gesture of abhorrence and disgust. Now +that was a petition from the town of Liverpool, in which some persons +have been making themselves very ridiculous of late by reason of their +conduct on this American question. + +There is one more point. It has been said, 'How much better it would +be'--not for the United States, but--'for us, that these States should +be divided.' I recollect meeting a gentleman in Bond-street one day +before the session was over. He was a rich man, and one whose voice is +much heard in the House of Commons; but his voice is not heard when he +is on his legs, but when he is cheering other speakers; and he said to +me: 'After all, this is a sad business about the United States; but +still I think it very much better that they should be split up. In +twenty years,' or in fifty years, I forget which it was, 'they will be +so powerful that they will bully all Europe.' And a distinguished Member +of the House of Commons--distinguished there by his eloquence, +distinguished more by his many writings--I mean Sir Edward Bulwer +Lytton--he did not exactly express a hope, but he ventured on something +like a prediction, that the time would come when there would be, I do +not know how many, but about as many independent States on the American +Continent as you can count upon your fingers. + +There cannot be a meaner motive than this I am speaking of, in forming a +judgment on this question,--that it is 'better for us'--for whom? the +people of England, or the Government of England?--that the United States +should be severed, and that the North American continent should be as +the continent of Europe is, in many States, and subject to all the +contentions and disasters which have accompanied the history of the +States of Europe. I should say that, if a man had a great heart within +him, he would rather look forward to the day when, from that point of +land which is habitable nearest to the Pole, to the shores of the Great +Gulf, the whole of that vast continent might become one great +confederation of States,--without a great army, and without a great +navy,--not mixing itself up with the entanglements of European +politics,--without a custom-house inside, through the whole length and +breadth of its territory,--and with freedom everywhere, equality +everywhere, law everywhere, peace everywhere,--such a confederation +would afford at least some hope that man is not forsaken of Heaven, and +that the future of our race may be better than the past. + +It is a common observation, that our friends in America are very +irritable. And I think it is very likely, of a considerable number of +them, to be quite true. Our friends in America are involved in a great +struggle. There is nothing like it before in their or in any history. No +country in the world was ever more entitled, in my opinion, to the +sympathy and the forbearance of all friendly nations, than are the +United States at this moment. They have there some newspapers that are +no wiser than ours. They have there some papers, which, up to the +election of Mr. Lincoln, were his bitterest and most unrelenting foes, +who, when the war broke out, and it was not safe to take the line of +Southern support, were obliged to turn round and to appear to support +the prevalent opinion of the country. But they undertook to serve the +South in another way, and that was by exaggerating every difficulty and +misstating every fact, if so doing could serve their object of creating +distrust between the people of the Northern States and the people of +this United Kingdom. If the _Times_ in this country has done all +that it could do to poison the minds of the people of England, and to +irritate the minds of the people of America, the _New York Herald_, +I am sorry to say, has done, I think, all that it could, or all that it +dared to do, to provoke mischief between the Government in Washington +and the Government in London. + +Now there is one thing which I must state that I think they have a solid +reason to complain of; and I am very sorry to have to mention it, +because it blames our present Foreign Minister, against whom I am not +anxious to say a word, and, recollecting his speech in the House of +Commons, I should be slow to conclude that he had any feeling hostile to +the United States Government. You recollect that during the session--it +was on the 14th of May--a Proclamation came out which acknowledged the +South as a belligerent power, and proclaimed the neutrality of England. +A little time before that, I forget how many days, Mr. Dallas, the late +Minister from the United States, had left London for Liverpool and +America. He did not wish to undertake any affairs for his Government, by +which he was not appointed,--I mean that of President Lincoln,--and he +left what had to be done to his successor, who was on his way, and whose +arrival was daily expected. Mr. Adams, the present Minister from the +United States, is a man whom, if he lived in England, you would speak of +as belonging to one of the noblest families of the country. His father +and his grandfather were Presidents of the United States. His +grandfather was one of the great men who achieved the independence of +the United States. There is no family in that country having more claims +upon what I should call the veneration and the affection of the people +than the family of Mr. Adams. + +Mr. Adams came to this country. He arrived in London on the night of the +13th of May. On the 14th, that Proclamation was issued. It was known +that he was coming; but he was not consulted; the Proclamation was not +delayed for a day, although there was nothing pressing, no reason why +the Proclamation should not have been notified to him. If communications +of a friendly nature had taken place with him and with the American +Government, they could have found no fault with this step, because it +was perhaps inevitable, before the struggle had proceeded far, that this +Proclamation would be issued. But I have the best reasons for knowing +that there is no single thing that has happened during the course of +these events which has created more surprise, more irritation, and more +distrust in the United States, with respect to this country, than the +fact that that Proclamation was not delayed one single day, until the +Minister from America could come here, and until it could be done, if +not with his consent, or his concurrence, yet in that friendly manner +that would probably have avoided all the unpleasantness which has +occurred. + +Now I am obliged to say--and I say it with the utmost pain--that if we +have not done things that are plainly hostile to the North, and if we +have not expressed affection for slavery, and, outwardly and openly, +hatred for the Union,--I say that there has not been that friendly and +cordial neutrality which, if I had been a citizen of the United States, +I should have expected; and I say further, that, if there has existed +considerable irritation at that, it must be taken as a measure of the +high appreciation which the people of those States place upon the +opinion of the people of England. If I had been addressing this audience +ten days ago, so far as I know, I should have said just what I have said +now; and although, by an untoward event, circumstances are somewhat, +even considerably, altered, yet I have thought it desirable to make this +statement, with a view, so far as I am able to do it, to improve the +opinion of England, and to assuage feelings of irritation in America, if +there be any, so that no further difficulties may arise in the progress +of this unhappy strife. + +But there has occurred an event which was announced to us only a week +ago, which is one of great importance, and it may be one of some peril. +It is asserted that what is called 'international law' has been broken +by the seizure of the Southern Commissioners on board an English trading +steamer by a steamer of war of the United States. Now, what is +international law? You have heard that the opinions of the law officers +of the Crown are in favour of this view of the case--that the law has +been broken. I am not at all going to say that it has not. It would be +imprudent in me to set my opinion on a legal question which I have only +partially examined, against their opinion on the same question, which I +presume they have carefully examined. But this I say, that international +law is not to be found in an Act of Parliament--it is not in so many +clauses. You know that it is difficult to find the law. I can ask the +Mayor, or any magistrate around me, whether it is not very difficult to +find the law, even when you have found the Act of Parliament, and found +the clause. But when you have no Act of Parliament, and no clause, you +may imagine that the case is still more difficult. + +Now, maritime law, or international law, consists of opinions and +precedents for the most part, and it is very unsettled. The opinions are +the opinions of men of different countries, given at different times; +and the precedents are not always like each other. The law is very +unsettled, and, for the most part, I believe it to be exceedingly bad. +In past times, as you know from the histories you read, this country has +been a fighting country; we have been belligerents, and, as +belligerents, we have carried maritime law, by our own powerful hand, to +a pitch that has been very oppressive to foreign, and especially so to +neutral nations. Well, now, for the first time, unhappily,--almost for +the first time in our history for the last two hundred years,--we are +not belligerents, but neutrals; and we are disposed to take, perhaps, +rather a different view of maritime and international law. + +Now, the act which has been committed by the American steamer, in my +opinion, whether it was legal or not, was both impolitic and bad. That +is my opinion. I think it may turn out, almost certainly, that, so far +as the taking of those men from that ship was concerned, it was an act +wholly unknown to, and unauthorized by, the American Government. And if +the American Government believe, on the opinion of their law officers, +that the act is illegal, I have no doubt they will make fitting +reparation; for there is no Government in the world that has so +strenuously insisted upon modifications of international law, and been +so anxious to be guided always by the most moderate and merciful +interpretation of that law. + +Now, our great advisers of the _Times_ newspaper have been +persuading people that this is merely one of a series of acts which +denote the determination of the Washington Government to pick a quarrel +with the people of England. Did you ever know anybody who was not very +nearly dead drunk, who, having as much upon his hands as he could +manage, would offer to fight everybody about him? Do you believe that +the United States Government, presided over by President Lincoln, so +constitutional in all his acts, so moderate as he has been--representing +at this moment that great party in the United States, happily now in the +ascendancy, which has always been especially in favour of peace, and +especially friendly to England--do you believe that such a Government, +having now upon its hands an insurrection of the most formidable +character in the South, would invite the armies and the fleets of +England to combine with that insurrection, and, it might be, to render +it impossible that the Union should ever again be restored? I say, that +single statement, whether it came from a public writer or a public +speaker, is enough to stamp him for ever with the character of being an +insidious enemy of both countries. + +Well, now, what have we seen during the last week? People have not been, +I am told--I have not seen much of it--quite as calm as sensible men +should be. Here is a question of law. I will undertake to say, that when +you have from the United States Government--if they think the act legal-- +a statement of their view of the case, they will show you that, fifty +or sixty years ago, during the wars of that time, there were scores of +cases that were at least as bad as this, and some infinitely worse. And +if it were not so late to-night--and I am not anxious now to go into the +question further--I could easily place before you cases of extreme +outrage committed by us when we were at war, and for many of which, I am +afraid, little or no reparation was offered. But let us bear this in +mind, that during this struggle incidents and accidents will happen. +Bear in mind the advice of Lord Stanley, so opportune and so judicious. +Do not let your newspapers, or your public speakers, or any man, take +you off your guard, and bring you into that frame of mind under which +your Government, if it desires war, may be driven to engage in it; for +one may be almost as fatal and as evil as the other. + +What can be more monstrous than that we, as we call ourselves, to some +extent, an educated, a moral, and a Christian nation--at a moment when +an accident of this kind occurs, before we have made a representation to +the American Government, before we have heard a word from it in reply-- +should be all up in arms, every sword leaping from its scabbard, and +every man looking about for his pistols and his blunderbusses? I think +the conduct pursued--and I have no doubt just the same is pursued by a +certain class in America--is much more the conduct of savages than of +Christian and civilized men. No, let us be calm. You recollect how we +were dragged into the Russian war--how we 'drifted' into it. You know +that I, at least, have not upon my head any of the guilt of that fearful +war. You know that it cost one hundred millions of money to this +country; that it cost at least the lives of forty thousand Englishmen; +that it disturbed your trade; that it nearly doubled the armies of +Europe; that it placed the relations of Europe on a much less peaceful +footing than before; and that it did not effect one single thing of all +those that it was promised to effect. + +I recollect speaking on this subject, within the last two years, to a +man whose name I have already mentioned, Sir James Graham, in the House +of Commons. He was a Minister at the time of that war. He was reminding +me of a severe onslaught which I had made upon him and Lord Palmerston +for attending a dinner at the Reform Club when Sir Charles Napier was +appointed to the command of the Baltic fleet; and he remarked, 'What a +severe thrashing' I had given them in the House of Commons! I said, 'Sir +James, tell me candidly, did you not deserve it?' He said, 'Well, you +were entirely right about that war; we were entirely wrong, and we never +should have gone into it.' And this is exactly what everybody will say, +if you go into a war about this business, when it is over. When your +sailors and soldiers, so many of them as may be slaughtered, are gone to +their last account; when your taxes are increased, your business +permanently--it may be--injured; and when embittered feelings for +generations have been created between America and England--then your +statesmen will tell you that f we ought not to have gone into the war.' + +But they will very likely say, as many of them tell me, 'What could we +do in the frenzy of the public mind?' Let them not add to the frenzy, +and let us be careful that nobody drives us into that frenzy. +Remembering the past, remembering at this moment the perils of a +friendly people, and seeing the difficulties by which they are +surrounded, let us, I entreat of you, see if there be any real +moderation in the people of England, and if magnanimity, so often to be +found amongst individuals, is absolutely wanting in a great nation. + +Now, Government may discuss this matter--they may arrange it--they may +arbitrate it. I have received here, since I came into the room, a +despatch from a friend of mine in London, referring to this matter. I +believe some portion of it is in the papers this evening, but I have not +seen them. He states that General Scott, whom you know by name, who has +come over from America to France, being in a bad state of health--the +General lately of the American army, and a man whose reputation in that +country is hardly second to that which the Duke of Wellington held +during his lifetime in this country--General Scott has written a letter +on the American difficulty. He denies that the Cabinet of Washington had +ordered the seizure of the Southern Commissioners, if found under a +neutral flag. The question of legal right involved in the seizure, the +General thinks a very narrow ground on which to force a quarrel with the +United States. As to Messrs. Slidell and Mason being or not being +contraband, the General answers for it, that, if Mr. Seward cannot +convince Earl Russell that they bore that character, Earl Russell will +be able to convince Mr. Seward that they did not. He pledges himself +that, if this Government cordially agreed with that of the United States +in establishing the immunity of neutrals from the oppressive right of +search and seizure on suspicion, the Cabinet of Washington will not +hesitate to purchase so great a boon to peaceful trading-vessels. + +Now, then, before I sit down, let me ask you what is this people, about +which so many men in England at this moment are writing, and speaking, +and thinking, with harshness, I think with injustice, if not with great +bitterness? Two centuries ago, multitudes of the people of this country +found a refuge on the North American continent, escaping from the +tyranny of the Stuarts and from the bigotry of Laud. Many noble spirits +from our country made great experiments in favour of human freedom on +that continent. Bancroft, the great historian of his own country, has +said, in his own graphic and emphatic language, 'The history of the +colonization of America is the history of the crimes of Europe.' From +that time down to our own period, America has admitted the wanderers +from every clime. Since 1815, a time which many here remember, and which +is within my lifetime, more than three millions of persons have +emigrated from the United Kingdom to the United States. During the +fifteen years from 1845 or 1846 to 1859 or 1860--a period so recent that +we all remember the most trivial circumstances that have happened in +that time--during those fifteen years more than two million three +hundred and twenty thousand persons left the shores of the United +Kingdom as emigrants for the States of North America. + +At this very moment, then, there are millions in the United States who +personally, or whose immediate parents, have at one time been citizens +of this country. They found a home in the Far West; they subdued the +wilderness; they met with plenty there, which was not afforded them in +their native country; and they have become a great people. There may be +persons in England who are jealous of those States. There may be men who +dislike democracy, and who hate a republic; there may be even those +whose sympathies warm towards the slave oligarchy of the South. But of +this I am certain, that only misrepresentation the most gross or calumny +the most wicked can sever the tie which unites the great mass of the +people of this country with their friends and brethren beyond the +Atlantic. + +Now, whether the Union will be restored or not, or the South achieve an +unhonoured independence or not, I know not, and I predict not. But this +I think I know--that in a few years, a very few years, the twenty +millions of freemen in the North will be thirty millions, or even fifty +millions--a population equal to or exceeding that of this kingdom. When +that time comes, I pray that it may not be said amongst them, that, in +the darkest hour of their country's trials, England, the land of their +fathers, looked on with icy coldness and saw unmoved the perils and +calamities of their children. As for me, I have but this to say: I am +but one in this audience, and but one in the citizenship of this +country; but if all other tongues are silent mine shall speak for that +policy which gives hope to the bondsmen of the South, and which tends to +generous thoughts, and generous words, and generous deeds, between the +two great nations who speak the English language, and from their origin +are alike entitled to the English name. + + * * * * * + +AMERICA. + +II. + +THE WAR AND THE SUPPLY OF COTTON. +BIRMINGHAM, DECEMBER 18, 1862. + +I am afraid there was a little excitement during a part of my honourable +Colleague's speech, which was hardly favourable to that impartial +consideration to which he appealed. He began by referring to a question-- +or, I might say, to two questions, for it was one great question in two +parts,--which at this moment occupies the mind, and, I think, must +afflict the heart of every thoughtful man in this country--the calamity +which has fallen upon the county from which I come, and the strife which +is astonishing the world on the other side of the Atlantic. + +I shall not enter into details with regard to that calamity, because you +have had already, I believe, meetings in this town, many details have +been published, contributions of a generous character have been made, +and you are doing--and especially, if I am rightly informed, are your +artisans doing--their duty with regard to the unfortunate condition of +the population amongst which I live. But this I may state in a sentence, +that the greatest, probably the most prosperous, manufacturing industry +that this country or the world has ever seen, has been suddenly and +unexpectedly stricken down, but by a blow which had not been unforeseen +or unforetold. Nearly five hundred thousand persons--men, women, and +children--at this moment are saved from the utmost extremes of famine, +not a few of them from death, by the contributions which they are +receiving from all parts of the country. I will not attempt here an +elaborate eulogy of the generosity of the givers, nor will I endeavour +to paint the patience and the gratitude of those who suffer and receive; +but I believe the conduct of the country, with regard to this great +misfortune, is an honour to all classes and to every section of this +people. + +Some have remarked that there is perfect order where there has been so +much anxiety and suffering. I believe there is scarcely a thoughtful man +in Lancashire who will not admit that one great cause of the patience +and good conduct of the people, besides the fact that they know so much +is being done for them, is to be found in the extensive information they +possess, and which of late years, and now more than ever, has been +communicated to them through the instrumentality of an untaxed press. +Noble Lords who have recently spoken, official men, and public men, have +taken upon them to tell the people of Lancashire that nobody has done +wrong, and that, in point of fact, if it had not been for a family +quarrel in that dreadful Republic, everything would have gone on +smoothly, and that nobody can be blamed for our present sufferings. + +Now, if you will allow me, I should like to examine for a few minutes +whether this be true. If you read the papers with regard to this +question, you will find that, barring whatever chance there may be of +our again soon receiving a supply of cotton from America, the hopes of +the whole country are directed to India. Our Government of India is not +one of to-day. It is a Government that has lasted as long as the +Government of the United States, and it has had far more insurrections +and secessions, not one of which, I suppose some in this meeting must +regret, has been tolerated by our Government or recognised by France. +Our Government in India has existed for a hundred years in some portion +of the country where cotton is a staple produce of the land. But we have +had under the name of a Government what I have always described as a +piratical joint-stock company, beginning with Lord Clive, and ending, as +I now hope it has ended, with Lord Dalhousie. And under that Government +I will undertake to say that it was not in nature that you could have +such improvement as should ever give you a fair supply of cotton. + +Up to the year 1814, the whole trade of India was a monopoly of the East +India Company. They took everything there that went there; they brought +everything back that came here; they did whatsoever they pleased in the +territories under their rule. I have here an extract from a report of a +Member of Council in India, Mr. Richards, published in the year 1813. He +reports to the Court of Directors, that the whole cotton produce of the +district was taken, without leaving any portion of the avowed share of +the Ryots, that is, the cultivators, at their own free disposal; and he +says that they are not suffered to know what they shall get for it until +after it has been far removed from their reach and from the country by +exportation coastwise to Bombay; and he says further, that the Company's +servants fixed the prices from ten to thirty per cent, under the general +market rate in the districts that were not under the Company's rule. +During the three years before the Company's monopoly was abolished, in +1814, the whole cotton that we received from India (I quote from the +brokers' returns from Liverpool), was only 17,000 bales; in the three +years afterwards, owing, no doubt, partly to the great increase in +price, we received 551,000 bales, during which same three years the +United States only sent us 611,000. Thus you see that in 1817, 1818, and +1819, more than forty years ago, the quantity we received from India was +close upon, and in the year 1818 it actually exceeded, that which we +received from the United States. + +Well, now I come down to the year 1832, and I have then the report of +another Member of Council, and beg every working man here, every man who +is told that there is nobody to blame, to listen to one or two extracts +from the report. Mr. Warden, Member of the Council, gave evidence in +1832 that the money-tax levied on Surat cotton was 56 rupees per candy, +leaving the grower only 24 rupees, or rather less than 3/4_d_. per +pound. In 1846 there was so great a decay of the cotton-trade of Western +India, that a committee was appointed in Bombay, partly of Members of +the Chamber of Commerce and partly of servants of the Government, and +they made a report in which they stated that from every candy of cotton-- +a candy is 7 cwt. or 784 lbs.--costing 80 rupees, which is 160 +shillings in Bombay, the Government had taken 48 rupees as land-tax and +sea-duty, leaving only 32 rupees, or less than 3/4_d_. per pound, +to be divided among all parties, from the Bombay seller to the Surat +grower. + +In 1847 I was in the House of Commons, and I brought forward a +proposition for a select committee to inquire into this whole question; +for in that year Lancashire was on the verge of the calamity that has +now overtaken it; cotton was very scarce, for hundreds of the mills were +working short time, and many were closed altogether. That committee +reported that, in all the districts of Bombay and Madras where cotton +was cultivated, and generally over those agricultural regions, the +people were in a condition of the most abject and degraded pauperism; +and I will ask you whether it is possible for a people in that condition +to produce anything great, or anything good, or anything constant, which +the world requires? + +It is not to be wondered at that the quality of the cotton should be +bad--so bad that it is illustrated by an anecdote which a very excellent +man of the Methodist body told me the other day. He said that at a +prayer-meeting, not more than a dozen miles from where I live, one of +the ministers was earnest in supplication to the Supreme; he detailed, +no doubt, a great many things which he thought they were in want of, and +amongst the rest, a supply of cotton for the famishing people in that +district. When he prayed for cotton, some man with a keen sense of what +he had suffered, in response exclaimed, 'O Lord! but not Surat.' + +Now, my argument is this, and my assertion is this, that the growth of +cotton in India,--the growth of an article which was native and common +in India before America was discovered by Europeans,--that the growth of +that article has been systematically injured, strangled, and destroyed +by the stupid and wicked policy of the Indian Government. + +I saw, the other day, a letter from a gentleman as well acquainted with +Indian affairs, perhaps, as any man in India,--a letter written to a +member of the Madras Government,--in which he stated his firm opinion +that, if it had not been for the Bombay Committee in 1846, and for my +Committee in 1848, there would not have been any cotton sent from India +at this moment to be worked up in Lancashire. Now, in 1846, the quantity +of cotton coming from India had fallen to 94,000 bales. How has it +increased since then? In 1859 it had reached 509,000 bales; in 1860, +562,000 bales; and last year, owing to the extraordinarily high price, +it had reached 986,000 bales, and I suppose this year will be about the +same as last year. + +I think, in justification of myself and of some of those with whom I +have acted, I am entitled to ask your time for a few moments, to show +you what has been not so much done as attempted to be done to improve +this state of things; and what has been the systematic opposition that +we have had to contend with. In the year 1847, I moved for that +Committee, in a speech from which I shall read one short extract. I said +that, 'We ought not to forget that the whole of the cotton grown in +America is produced by slave labour, and this, I think, all will admit,-- +that, no matter as to the period in which slavery may have existed, +abolished it will ultimately be, either by peaceable means or by violent +means. Whether it comes to an end by peaceable means or otherwise, there +will in all probability be an interruption to the production of cotton, +and the calamity which must in consequence fall upon a part of the +American Union will be felt throughout the manufacturing districts of +this country.' + +The committee was not refused;--Governments do not always refuse +committees; they do not much fear them on matters of this kind; they put +as many men on as the mover of the committee does, and sometimes more, +and they often consider a committee, as my honourable Colleague will +tell you, rather a convenient way of burying an unpleasant question, at +least for another session. The committee sat during the session of 1848, +and it made a report, from which I shall quote, not an extract, but the +sense of an extract. The evidence was very extensive, very complete, and +entirely condemnatory of the whole system of the Indian Government with +regard to the land and agricultural produce, and one might have hoped +that something would have arisen from it, and probably something has +arisen from it, but so slowly that you have no fruit,--nothing on which +you can calculate, even up to this hour. + +Well, in 1850, as nothing more was done, I thought it time to take +another step, and I gave notice of a motion for the appointment of a +Royal Commission to go to India for the express purpose of ascertaining +the truth of this matter, I moved, 'That a Royal Commission proceed to +India to inquire into the obstacles which prevent the increased growth +of cotton in India, and to report upon any circumstance which may +injuriously affect the economical and industrial condition of the native +population, being cultivators of the soil, within the Presidencies of +Madras and Bombay.' + +Now I shall read you one extract from my speech on that occasion, which +refers to this question of peril in America. I said, 'But there is +another point, that, whilst the production of cotton in the United +States results from slave labour, whether we approve of any particular +mode of abolishing slavery in any country or not, we are all convinced +that it will be impossible in any country, and most of all in America, +to keep between two and three millions of the population permanently in +a state of bondage. By whatever means that system is to be abolished, +whether by insurrection,--which I should deplore,--or by some great +measure of justice from the Government,--one thing is certain, that the +production of cotton must be interfered with for a considerable time +after such an event has taken place; and it may happen that the greatest +measure of freedom that has ever been conceded may be a measure the +consequence of which will inflict mischief upon the greatest industrial +pursuit that engages the labour of the operative population of this +country.' + +Now, it was not likely the Government could pay much attention to this, +for at that precise moment the Foreign Office--then presided over by +Lord Palmerston--was engaged with an English fleet in the waters of +Greece, in collecting a bad debt for one Don Pacifico, a Jew, who made a +fraudulent demand on the Greek Government for injuries said to have been +committed upon him in Greece. Notwithstanding this, I called upon Lord +John Russell, who was then the Prime Minister, and asked him whether he +would grant the Commission I was going to move for. I will say this for +him, he appeared to agree with me that it was a reasonable thing. I +believe he saw the peril, and that my proposition was a proper one, but +he said he wished he could communicate with Lord Dalhousie. But it was +in the month of June, and he could not do that, and hear from him again +before the close of the session. He told me that Sir John Hobhouse, then +President of the India Board, was very much against it; and I answered, +'Doubtless he is, because he speaks as the mouthpiece of the East India +Company, against whom I am bringing this inquiry.' + +Well, my proposition came before the House, and, as some of you may +recollect, it was opposed by the President of the India Board, and the +Commission was consequently not granted. I had seen Sir Robert Peel,-- +this was only ten days before his death,--I had seen Sir Robert Peel, +acquainted as he was with Lancashire interests, and had endeavoured to +enlist him in my support. He cordially and entirely approved of my +motion, and he remained in the House during the whole of the time I was +speaking; but when Sir John Hobhouse rose to resist the motion, and he +found the Government would not consent to it, he then left his seat, and +left the House. The night after, or two nights after, he met me in the +lobby; and he said he thought it was but right he should explain why he +left the House after the conversation he had held with me on this +question before. He said he had hoped the Government would agree to the +motion, but when he found they would not, his position was so delicate +with regard to them and his own old party, that he was most anxious that +nothing should induce him, unless under the pressure of some great +extremity, to appear even to oppose them on any matter before the House. +Therefore, from a very delicate sense of honour, he did not say what I +am sure he would have been glad to have said, and the proposition did +not receive from him that help which, if it had received it, would have +surmounted all obstacles. + +To show the sort of men who are made ministers--Sir John Hobhouse had on +these occasions always a speech of the same sort. He said this: 'With +respect to the peculiar urgency of the time, he could not say the +honourable Gentleman had made out his case; for he found that the +importation of cotton from all countries showed an immense increase +during the last three years.' We know that the importation of cotton has +shown an 'immense increase' almost every three years for the last fifty +years. But it was because that increase was entirely, or nearly so, from +one source, and that source one of extreme peril, that I asked for the +inquiry for which I moved. He said he had a letter in his hand--and he +shook it at me--from the Secretary of the Commercial Association of +Manchester, in which the directors of that body declared by special +resolution that my proposition was not necessary, that an inquiry might +do harm, and that they were abundantly satisfied with everything that +these lords of Leadenhall-street were doing. He said, 'Such was the +letter of the Secretary of the Association, and it was a complete answer +to the hon. Gentleman who had brought forward this motion.' + +At this moment one of these gentlemen to whom I have referred, then +President of the Board of Control, Governor of India, author, as he told +a committee on which I sat, of the Affghan war, is now decorated with a +Norman title--for our masters even after a lapse of eight hundred years +ape the Norman style--sits in the House of Peers, and legislates for +you, having neglected in regard to India every great duty which +appertained to his high office; and to show that it is not only cabinets +and monarchs who thus distribute honours and rewards, the President of +that Commercial Association through whose instigation that letter was +written is now one of the representatives of Manchester, the great +centre of that manufacture whose very foundation is now crumbling into +ruin. + +But I was not, although discouraged, baffled. I went down to the Chamber +of Commerce in Manchester, and along with Mr. Bazley, then the President +of the Chamber, I believe, and Mr. Henry Ashworth, who is now the +President of that Chamber, and many others, we determined to have a +Commission of Inquiry of our own. We raised a subscription of more than +2,000_l_.; we selected a gentleman--Mr. Alexander Mackay, the +author of one of the very best books ever written by an Englishman upon +America, _The Western World_--and we invited him to become our +Commissioner, and, unfortunately for him, he accepted the office. He +went to India, he made many inquiries, he wrote many interesting +reports; but, like many others who go to India, his health declined; he +returned from Bombay, but he did not live to reach home. + +We were greatly disappointed at this on public grounds, besides our +regret for the loss of one of so much private worth. Some of us, Mr. +Bazley particularly, undertook the charge of publishing these reports, +and a friend of Mr. Mackay's, now no longer living, undertook the +editorship of them, and they were published in a volume called +_Western India_; and that volume received such circulation as a +work of that nature is likely to have. + +In the year 1853 there came the proposition for the renewal of the East +India Company's charter. I opposed that to the utmost of my power in the +House of Commons, and some of you will recollect I came down here with +Mr. Danby Seymour, the Member for Poole, a gentleman well acquainted +with Indian affairs, and attended a meeting in this very hall, to +denounce the policy of conferring the government of that great country +for another twenty years upon a Company which had so entirely neglected +every duty belonging to it except one--the duty of collecting taxes. In +1854, Colonel Cotton--now Sir Arthur Cotton, one of the most +distinguished engineers in India--came down to Manchester. We had a +meeting at the Town Hall, and he gave an address on the subject of +opening the Godavery River, in order that it might form a mode of +transit, cheap and expeditious, from the cotton districts to the north +of that river; and it was proposed to form a joint-stock company to do +it, but unfortunately the Russian war came on and disturbed all +commercial projects, and made it impossible to raise money for any--as +some might call it--speculative purpose, like that of opening an Indian +river. + +Well, in 1857 there came the mutiny. What did our rulers do then? Sir +Charles Wood, in 1538, had made a speech five hours long, most of it in +praise of the government of the East India Company. In 1858--at the +opening of the session in 1858, I think--the Government brought in a +Bill to abolish that Company, and to establish a new form of government +for India. That was exactly what we asked them to do in 1853; but, as in +everything else, nothing is done until there comes an overwhelming +calamity, when the most obtuse and perverse is driven from his position. +In 1858 that Bill passed, under the auspices of Lord Stanley. It was not +a Bill such as I think Lord Stanley approved when he was not a Minister; +it was not a Bill such as I believe he would have brought in if he had +been permitted by the House and the Cabinet to have brought in a better +Bill. It abolished the East India Company, established a new Council, +and left things to a great extent much in the same state as they were. + +During the discussion of that Bill, I made a speech on Indian affairs, +which I believe goes to the root of the matter. I protested then as now +against the notion of governing one hundred and fifty millions of +people--twenty different nations, with twenty different languages--from +a little coterie of rulers in the city of Calcutta. I proposed that the +country should be divided into five or six separate, and, as regards +each other, independent Presidencies of equal rank, with a governor and +council in each, and each government corresponding with, and dependent +upon, and responsible to, a Secretary of State in this country. I am of +opinion that if such a Government were established, one in each +Presidency, and if there was a first-class engineer, with an efficient +staff, whose business should be to determine what public works should be +carried on, some by the Government and some by private companies--I +believe that ten years of such judicious labours would work an entire +revolution in the condition of India; and if it had been done when I +first began to move in this question, I have not the smallest doubt we +might have had at this moment any quantity of cotton whatever that the +mills of Lancashire require. + +Well, after this, I am afraid some of my friends may feel, and my +opponents will say, that it is very egotistical in me to have entered +into these details. But I think, after this recapitulation, I am at +liberty to say I am guiltless of that calamity which has fallen upon us. +And I may mention that some friends of mine--Mr. John Dickinson, now +Chairman of the Indian Reform Association, Mr. Bazley, one of the +members for Manchester, Mr. Ashworth, the President of the Chamber of +Commerce of Manchester, and Mr. John Benjamin Smith, the Member for +Stockport--present themselves at this moment to my eyes as those who +have been largely instrumental in calling the attention of Parliament +and of the country to this great question of the reform of our +Government in India. + +But I have been asked twenty, fifty times during the last twelve months, +'Why do you not come out and say something? Why can you not tell us +something in this time of our great need?' Well, I reply, 'I told you +something when speaking was of use; all I can say now is this, or nearly +all, that a hundred years of crime against the negro in America, and a +hundred years of crime against the docile natives of our Indian empire, +are not to be washed away by the penitence and the suffering of an +hour.' + +But what is our position? for you who are subscribing your money here +have a right to know. I believe the quantity of cotton in the United +States is at this moment much less than many people here believe, and +that it is in no condition to be forwarded and exported. And I suspect +that it is far more probable than otherwise, notwithstanding some of the +strange theories of my honourable Colleague, that there never will again +be in America a crop of cotton grown by slave labour. You will +understand--I hope so, at least--that I am not undertaking the office of +prophet, I am not predicting; I know that everything which is not +absolutely impossible may happen, and therefore things may happen wholly +different to the course which appears to me to be likely. But I say, +taking the facts as they are before us--with that most limited vision +which is given to mortals--the high probability is that there will never +be another considerable crop, or one available for our manufactories, +from slave labour in the United States. + +We read the American papers, or the quotations from them in our own +papers, but I believe we can form no adequate conception of the +disorganization and chaos that now prevail throughout a great portion of +the Southern States. It is natural to a state of war under the +circumstances of society in that region. But then we may be asked, What +are our sources of supply, putting aside India? There is the colony of +Queensland, where enthusiastic persons tell you cotton can be grown +worth 3_s_. a pound. True enough; but when labour is probably worth +10_s_. a-day, I am not sure you are likely to get any large supply +of that material we so much want, at a rate so cheap that we shall be +likely to use it. Africa is pointed to by a very zealous friend of mine; +but Africa is a land of savages, and with its climate so much against +European constitutions, I should not entertain the hope that any great +relief at any early period can be had from that continent. Egypt will +send us 30,000 or 40,000 bales more than last year; in all probability +Syria and Brazil, with these high prices, will increase their production +to some considerable extent; but I believe there is no country at +present from which you can derive any very large supply, except you can +get it from your own dependencies in India. Now if there be no more +cotton to be grown for two, or three, or four years in America, for our +supply, we shall require, considering the smallness of the bales and the +loss in working up the cotton--we shall require nearly 6,000,000 of +additional bales to be supplied from some source. + +I want to put to you one question. It has taken the United States twenty +years, from 1840 up to 1860, to increase their growth of cotton from +2,000,000 bales to 4,000,000. How long will it take any other country, +with comparatively little capital, with a thousand disadvantages which +America did not suffer from--how long will it take any other country, or +all other countries, to give us 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 additional bales +of cotton? There is one stimulus--the only one that I know of; and +although I have not recommended it to the Government, and I know not +precisely what sacrifice it would entail, yet I shall mention it, and I +do it on the authority of a gentleman to whom I have before referred, +who is thoroughly acquainted with Indian agriculture, and whose family +have been landowners and cultivators in India for sixty years. He says +there is only one mode by which you can rapidly stimulate the growth of +cotton in India, except that stimulus coming from the high prices for +the time being,--he says that, if the Government would make a public +declaration that for five years they would exempt from land-tax all land +which during that time shall grow cotton, there would be the most +extraordinary increase in the growth of that article which has ever been +seen in regard to any branch of agriculture in the world. + +I do not know how far that would act, but I believe the stimulus would +be enormous,--the loss to the Government in revenue would be something, +but the deliverance to the industry of Lancashire, if it succeeded, as +my friend thinks, would of course be speedy, and perhaps complete. Short +of this, I look upon the restoration of the prosperity of Lancashire as +distant. I believe this misfortune may entail ruin upon the whole +working population, and that it may gradually engulf the smaller traders +and those possessing the least capital. I do not say it will, because, +as I have said, what is not impossible may happen,--but it may for years +make the whole factory property of Lancashire almost entirely worthless. +Well, this is a very dismal look-out for a great many persons in this +country; but it comes, as I have said,--it comes from that utter neglect +of their opportunities and their duties which has distinguished the +Government of India. + +Now, Sir, before I sit down I shall ask you to listen to me for a few +moments on the other branch of this great question, which refers to that +sad tragedy which is passing before our eyes in the United States of +America. I shall not, in consequence of anything you have heard from my +hon. Friend, conceal from you any of the opinions which I hold, and +which I proposed to lay before you if he had not spoken. Having given to +him, notwithstanding some diversity of opinion, a fair and candid +hearing, I presume that I shall receive the same favour from those who +may differ from me. If I had known that my hon. Friend was going to make +an elaborate speech on this occasion, one of two things I should have +done: I should either have prepared myself entirely to answer him, or I +should have decided not to attend a meeting where there could by any +possibility of chance have been anything like discord between so many-- +his friends and my friends--in this room. + +Since I have been Member for Birmingham, Mr. Scholefield has treated me +with the kindness of a brother. Nothing could possibly be more generous +and more disinterested in every way than his conduct towards me during +these several years, and therefore I would much rather--far rather--that +I lost any opportunity like this of speaking on this question, than I +would have come here and appeared to be at variance with him. But I am +happy to say that this great question does not depend upon the opinion +of any man in Birmingham, or in England, or anywhere else. And therefore +I could--anxious always, unless imperative duty requires, to avoid even +a semblance of difference--I could with a clear conscience have +abstained from coming to and speaking at this meeting. + +But I observe that my hon. Friend endeavoured to avoid committing +himself to what is called sympathy with the South. He takes a political +view of this great question,--is disposed to deal with the matter as he +would have dealt with the case of a colony of Spain or Portugal +revolting in South America, or of Greece revolting from Turkey. I should +like to state here what I once said to an eminent American. He asked me +if I could give him an idea of the course of public opinion in this +country from the moment we heard of the secession of the Cotton States; +and I endeavoured to trace it in this way,--and I ask you to say whether +it is a fair and full description. + +I said--and my hon. Friend has admitted this--that when the revolt or +secession was first announced, people here were generally against the +South. Nobody thought then that the South had any cause for breaking up +the integrity of that great nation. Their opinion was, and what people +said, according to their different politics in this country was, 'They +have a Government which is mild, and not in any degree oppressive; they +have not what some people love very much, and what some people dislike,-- +they have not a costly monarchy, and an aristocracy, creating and +living on patronage. They have not an expensive foreign policy; a great +army; a great navy; and they have no suffering millions discontented and +endeavouring to overthrow their Government;--all which things have been +said against Governments in this country and in Europe a hundred times +within our own hearing,'--and therefore, they said, 'Why should these +men revolt?' + +But for a moment the Washington Government appeared paralyzed. It had no +army and no navy; everybody was traitor to it. It was paralyzed and +apparently helpless; and in the hour when the government was transferred +from President Buchanan to President Lincoln, many people--such was the +unprepared state of the North, such was the apparent paralysis of +everything there--thought there would be no war; and men shook hands +with each other pleasantly, and congratulated themselves that the +disaster of a great strife, and the mischief to our own trade, might be +avoided. That was the opinion at that moment, so far as I can recollect, +and could gather at the time, with my opportunities of gathering such +opinion. They thought the North would acquiesce in the rending of the +Republic, and that there would be no war. + +Well, but there was another reason. They were told by certain public +writers in this country that the contest was entirely hopeless, as they +have been told lately by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am very +happy that, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer is able to decide to +a penny what shall be the amount of taxes to meet public expenditure in +England, he cannot decide what shall be the fate of a whole continent. +It was said that the contest was hopeless, and why should the North +continue a contest at so much loss of blood and treasure, and at so +great a loss to the commerce of the whole world? If a man thought--if a +man believed in his heart that the contest was absolutely hopeless--no +man in this country had probably any right to form a positive opinion +one way or the other--but if he had formed that opinion, he might think, +'Well, the North can never be successful; it would be much better that +they should not carry on the war at all; and therefore I am rather glad +that the South should have success, for by that the war will be the +sooner put an end to.' I think this was a feeling that was abroad. + +Now I am of opinion that, if we judge a foreign nation in the +circumstances in which we find America, we ought to apply to it our own +principles. My hon. Friend has referred to the question of the Trent. I +was not here last year, but I heard of a meeting--I read in the papers +of a meeting held in reference to that affair in this very hall, and +that there was a great diversity of opinion. But the majority were +supposed to indorse the policy of the Government in making a great +demonstration of force. And I think I read that at least one minister of +religion took that view from this platform. I am not complaining of it. +But I say that if you thought when the American captain, even if he had +acted under the commands of his Government, which he had not, had taken +two men most injurious and hostile to his country from the deck of an +English ship--if you thought that on that ground you were justified in +going to war with the Republic of North America, then I say you ought +not to be very nice in judging what America should do in circumstances +much more onerous than those in which you were placed. + +Now, take as an illustration the Rock of Gibraltar. Many of you have +been there, I dare say. I have; and among the things that interested me +were the monkeys on the top of it, and a good many people at the bottom, +who were living on English taxes. Well, the Rock of Gibraltar was taken +and retained by this country when we were not at war with Spain, and it +was retained contrary to every law of morality and honour. [A Voice: +'No! No!'] No doubt the Gentleman below is much better acquainted with +the history of it than I am, but I may suggest to him that very likely +we have read two different histories. But I will let this pass, and I +will assume that it came into the possession of England in the most +honourable way, which is, I suppose, by regular and acknowledged +national warfare. + +Suppose, at this moment, you heard, or the English Government heard, +that Spain was equipping expeditions, by land and sea, for the purpose +of retaking that fortress and rock. Now, although it is not of the +slightest advantage to any Englishman living, excepting to those who +have pensions and occupations upon it; although every Government knows +it, and although more than one Government has been anxious to give it +up, and I hope this Government will send my friend, Mr. Cobden, to +Madrid, with an offer that Gibraltar shall be ceded to Spain, as being +of no use to this country, and only embittering, as statesmen have +admitted, the relations between Spain and England,--and if he were to go +to Madrid with an offer of the Rock of Gibraltar, I believe he might +obtain a commercial treaty with Spain, that would admit every English +manufacture and every article of English produce into that country at a +duty of not more than ten per cent.;--I say, do you not think that, if +you heard that Spain was about to retake that useless rock, mustering +her legions and her fleets, the English Government would combine all the +power of this country to resist it? + +If that be so, then I think--seeing that there was a fair election two +years ago, and that President Lincoln was fairly and honestly elected-- +that when the Southern leaders met at Montgomery in Alabama, on the 6th +of March, and authorized the raising of a hundred thousand men, and +when, on the 15th of April, they attacked Fort Sumter--not a fort of +South Carolina, but a fort of the Union--then, upon all the principles +that Englishmen and English Governments have ever acted upon, President +Lincoln was justified in calling out seventy-five thousand men--which +was his first call--for the purpose of maintaining the integrity of that +nation, which was the main purpose of the oath which he had taken at his +election. + +Now I shall not go into a long argument upon this question, for the +reason that a year ago I said what I thought it necessary to say upon +it, and because I believe the question is in the hand, not of my hon. +Friend, nor in that of Lord Palmerston, nor in that even of President +Lincoln, but it is in the hand of the Supreme Ruler, who is bringing +about one of those great transactions in history which men often will +not regard when they are passing before them, but which they look back +upon with awe and astonishment some years after they are past. So I +shall content myself with asking one or two questions. I shall not +discuss the question whether the North is making war for the +Constitution, or making war for the abolition of slavery. + +If you come to a matter of sympathy with the South, or recognition of +the South, or mediation or intervention for the benefit of the South, +you should consider what are the ends of the South. Surely the United +States Government is a Government at amity with this country. Its +Minister is in London--a man honourable by family, as you know, in +America, his father and his grandfather having held the office of +President of the Republic. You have your own Minister just returned to +Washington. Is this hypocrisy? Are you, because you can cavil at certain +things which the North, the United States Government, has done or has +not done, are you eagerly to throw the influence of your opinion into a +movement which is to dismember the great Republic? + +Is there a man here that doubts for a moment that the object of the war +on the part of the South--they began the war--that the object of the war +on the part of the South is to maintain in bondage four millions of +human beings? That is only a small part of it. The further object is to +perpetuate for ever the bondage of all the posterity of those four +millions of slaves. [A few cries of 'No! No!'] You will hear that I am +not in a condition to contest vigorously anything that may be opposed, +for I am suffering, as nearly everybody is, from the state of the +weather, and a hoarseness that almost hinders me from speaking. I could +quote their own documents till midnight in proof of what I say; and if I +found a man who denied it, upon the evidence that had been offered, I +would not offend him, or trouble myself by trying further to convince +him. + +The object is, that a handful of white men on that continent shall lord +it over many millions of blacks, made black by the very Hand that made +us white. The object is, that they should have the power to breed +negroes, to work negroes, to lash negroes, to chain negroes, to buy and +sell negroes, to deny them the commonest ties of family, or to break +their hearts by rending them at their pleasure, to close their mental +eye to but a glimpse even of that knowledge which separates us from the +brute--for in their laws it is criminal and penal to teach the negro to +read--to seal from their hearts the Book of our religion, and to make +chattels and things of men and women and children. + +Now I want to ask whether this is to be the foundation, as it is +proposed, of a new slave empire, and whether it is intended that on this +audacious and infernal basis England's new ally is to be built up. It +has been said that Greece was recognized, and that other countries had +been recognized. But Greece was not recognized till after she had fought +Turkey for six years, and the Republics of South America, some of them, +not till they had fought the mother country for a score of years. France +did not recognize the United States of America till some, I think, six +years, five certainly, after the beginning of the War of Independence, +and even then it was received as a declaration of war by the English +Government. I want to know who they are who speak eagerly in favour of +England becoming the ally and friend of this great conspiracy against +human nature. + +Now I should have no kind of objection to recognize a country because it +was a country that held slaves--to recognize the United States, or to be +in amity with it. The question of slavery there, and in Cuba and in +Brazil, is, as far as respects the present generation, an accident, and +it would be unreasonable that we should object to trade with and have +political relations with a country, merely because it happened to have +within its borders the institution of slavery, hateful as that +institution is. But in this case it is a new State intending to set +itself up on the sole basis of slavery. Slavery is blasphemously +declared to be its chief corner-stone. + +I have heard that there are, in this country, ministers of state who are +in favour of the South; that there are members of the aristocracy who +are terrified at the shadow of the Great Republic; that there are rich +men on our commercial exchanges, depraved, it may be, by their riches, +and thriving unwholesomely within the atmosphere of a privileged class; +that there are conductors of the public press who would barter the +rights of millions of their fellow-creatures that they might bask in the +smiles of the great. + +But I know that there are ministers of state who do not wish that this +insurrection should break up the American nation; that there are members +of our aristocracy who are not afraid of the shadow of the Republic; +that there are rich men, many, who are not depraved by their riches; and +that there are public writers of eminence and honour who will not barter +human rights for the patronage of the great. But most of all, and before +all, I believe,--I am sure it is true in Lancashire, where the working +men have seen themselves coming down from prosperity to ruin, from +independence to a subsistence on charity,--I say that I believe that the +unenfranchised but not hopeless millions of this country will never +sympathize with a revolt which is intended to destroy the liberty of a +continent, and to build on its ruins a mighty fabric of human bondage. + +When I speak to gentlemen in private upon this matter, and hear their +own candid opinion,--I mean those who differ from me on this question,-- +they generally end by saying that the Republic is too great and too +powerful, and that it is better for us--not by 'us' meaning you, but the +governing classes and the governing policy of England--that it should be +broken up. But we will suppose that we are in New York or in Boston, +discussing the policy and power of England. If any one there were to +point to England,--not to the thirty-one millions of population in these +islands, but to her one hundred and fifty millions in India, and nobody +knows how many millions more in every other part of the globe,--might he +not, whilst boasting that America has not covered the ocean with fleets +of force, or left the bones of her citizens to blanch on a hundred +European battle-fields,--might he not fairly say, that England is great +and powerful, and that it is perilous for the world that she is so +great? + +But bear in mind that every declaration of this kind, whether from an +Englishman who professes to be strictly English, or from an American +strictly American, or from a Frenchman strictly French,--whether it +asserts in arrogant strains that Britannia rules the waves, or speaks of +'manifest destiny' and the supremacy of the 'Stars and Stripes' or +boasts that the Eagles of one nation, having once overrun Europe, may +possibly repeat the experiment,--I say all this is to be condemned. It +is not truly patriotic; it is not rational; it is not moral. Then, I +say, if any man wishes the Great Republic to be severed on that ground: +in my opinion, he is doing that which tends to keep alive jealousies +which, as far as he can prevent it, will never die; though if they do +not die, wars must be eternal. + +But then I shall be told that the people of the North do not like us at +all. In fact, we have heard it to-night. It is not reasonable that they +should like us. If an American be in this room to-night, will he feel +that he likes my honourable Friend? But if the North does not like +England, does anybody believe the South does? It does not appear to me +to be a question of liking or disliking. Everybody knows that when the +South was in power,--and it has been in power for the last fifty years,-- +everybody knows that hostility to this country, wherever it existed in +America, was cherished and stimulated to the utmost degree by some of +those very men who are now leaders of this very insurrection. + +My hon. Friend read a passage about the _Alabama_. I undertake to +say that he is not acquainted with the facts about the _Alabama_, +That he will acknowledge, I think. The Government of this country have +admitted that the building of the _Alabama_, and her sailing from +the Mersey, was a violation of international law. In America they say, +and they say here, that the _Alabama_ is a ship of war; that she +was built in the Mersey; that she was built, and I have reason to +believe it, by a member of the British Parliament; that she is furnished +with guns of English manufacture; that she is manned almost entirely by +Englishmen; and that these facts were represented, as I know they were +represented, to the collector of customs in Liverpool, who pooh-poohed +them, and said there was nothing in them. He was requested to send the +facts up to London to the Customs' authorities, and their solicitor, not +a very wise man, but probably in favour of breaking up the Republic, did +not think them of much consequence; but afterwards the opinion of an +eminent counsel, Mr. Collier, the Member for Plymouth, was taken, and he +stated distinctly that what was being done in Liverpool was a direct +infringement of the Foreign Enlistment Act, and that the Customs' +authorities of Liverpool would be responsible for anything that happened +in consequence. + +When this opinion was taken to the Foreign Office the Foreign Office was +a little astonished and a little troubled; and after they had consulted +their own law officers, whose opinions agreed with that of Mr. Collier, +they did what Government officers generally do, and as promptly,--a +telegraphic message went down to Liverpool to order that this vessel +should be seized, and she happened to sail an hour or two before the +message arrived. She has never been into a Confederate port--they have +not got any ports; she hoists the English flag when she wants to come +alongside a ship; she sets a ship on fire in the night, and when, seeing +fire, another ship bears down to lend help, she seizes it, and pillages +and burns it. I think that, if we were citizens of New York, it would +require a little more calmness than is shown in this country to look at +all this as if it was a matter with which we had no concern. And +therefore I do not so much blame the language that has been used in +America in reference to the question of the _Alabama_. + +But they do not know in America so much as we know--the whole truth +about public opinion here. There are ministers in our Cabinet as +resolved to be no traitors to freedom, on this question, as I am; and +there are members of the English aristocracy, and in the very highest +rank, as I know for a certainty, who hold the same opinion. They do not +know in America--at least, there has been no indication of it until the +advices that have come to hand within the last two days--what is the +opinion of the great body of the working classes in England. There has +been every effort that money and malice could make to stimulate in +Lancashire, amongst the suffering population, an expression of opinion +in favour of the Slave States. They have not been able to get it. And I +honour that population for their fidelity to principles and to freedom, +and I say that the course they have taken ought to atone in the minds of +the people of the United States for miles of leading articles, written +by the London press,--by men who would barter every human right,--that +they might serve the party with which they are associated. + +But now I shall ask you one other question before I sit down,--How comes +it that on the Continent there is not a liberal newspaper, nor a liberal +politician, that has said, or has thought of saying, a word in favour of +this portentous and monstrous shape which now asks to be received into +the family of nations? Take the great Italian Minister, Count Cavour. +You read some time ago in the papers part of a despatch which he wrote +on the question of America--he had no difficulty in deciding. Ask +Garibaldi. Is there in Europe a more disinterested and generous friend +of freedom than Garibaldi? Ask that illustrious Hungarian, to whose +marvellous eloquence you once listened in this hall. Will he tell you +that slavery has nothing to do with it, and that the slaveholders of the +South will liberate the negroes sooner than the North through the +instrumentality of the war? Ask Victor Hugo, the poet of freedom,--the +exponent, may I not call him, of the yearnings of all mankind for a +better time? Ask any man in Europe who opens his lips for freedom,--who +dips his pen in ink that he may indite a sentence for freedom,--whoever +has a sympathy for freedom warm in his own heart,--ask him,--he will +have no difficulty in telling you on which side your sympathies should +lie. + +Only a few days ago a German merchant in Manchester was speaking to a +friend of mine, and said he had recently travelled all through Germany. +He said, 'I am so surprised,--I don't find one man in favour of the +South' That is not true of Germany only, it is true of all the world +except this island, famed for freedom, in which we dwell. I will tell +you what is the reason. Our London press is mainly in the hands of +certain ruling West End classes; it acts and writes in favour of those +classes. I will tell you what they mean. One of the most eminent +statesmen in this country,--one who has rendered the greatest services +to the country, though, I must say, not in an official capacity, in +which men very seldom confer such great advantages upon the country,--he +told me twice, at an interval of several months, 'I had no idea how much +influence the example of that Republic was having upon opinion here, +until I discovered the universal congratulation that the Republic was +likely to be broken up.' + +But, Sir, the Free States are the home of the working man. Now, I speak +to working men particularly at this moment. Do you know that in fifteen +years two million five hundred thousand persons, men, women, and +children, have left the United Kingdom to find a home in the Free States +of America? That is a population equal to eight great cities of the size +of Birmingham. What would you think of eight Birminghams being +transplanted from this country and set down in the United States? +Speaking generally, every man of these two and a half millions is in a +position of much higher comfort and prosperity than he would have been +if he had remained in this country. I say it is the home of the working +man; as one of her poets has recently said,-- + + 'For her free latch-string never was drawn in + Against the poorest child of Adam's kin.' + +And in that land there are no six millions of grown men--I speak of the +Free States--excluded from the constitution of their country and its +electoral franchise; there, you will find a free Church, a free school, +free land, a free vote, and a free career for the child of the humblest +born in the land. My countrymen who work for your living, remember this: +there will be one wild shriek of freedom to startle all mankind if that +American Republic should be overthrown. + +Now for one moment let us lift ourselves, if we can, above the narrow +circle in which we are all too apt to live and think; let us put +ourselves on an historical eminence, and judge this matter fairly. +Slavery has been, as we all know, the huge, foul blot upon the fame of +the American Republic; it is a hideous outrage against human right and +against Divine law; but the pride, the passion of man, will not permit +its peaceable extinction. The slave-owners of our colonies, if they had +been strong enough, would have revolted too. I believe there was no mode +short of a miracle more stupendous than any recorded in Holy Writ that +could in our time, or in a century, or in any time, have brought about +the abolition of slavery in America, but the suicide which the South has +committed and the war which it has begun. + +Sir, it is a measureless calamity,--this war. I said the Russian war was +a measureless calamity, and yet many of your leaders and friends told +you that it was a just war to maintain the integrity of Turkey, some +thousands of miles off. Surely the integrity of your own country at your +own doors must be worth as much as the integrity of Turkey. Is not this +war the penalty which inexorable justice exacts from America, North and +South, for the enormous guilt of cherishing that frightful iniquity of +slavery for the last eighty years? I do not blame any man here who +thinks the cause of the North hopeless and the restoration of the Union +impossible. It may be hopeless; the restoration may be impossible. You +have the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that point. The +Chancellor of the Exchequer, as a speaker, is not surpassed by any man +in England, and he is a great statesman; he believes the cause of the +North to be hopeless; that their enterprise cannot succeed. + +Well, he is quite welcome to that opinion, and so is anybody else. I do +not hold the opinion; but the facts are before us all, and, as far as we +can discard passion and sympathy, we are all equally at liberty to form +our own opinion. But what I do blame is this. I blame men who are eager +to admit into the family of nations a State which offers itself to us, +based upon a principle, I will undertake to say, more odious and more +blasphemous than was ever heretofore dreamed of in Christian or Pagan, +in civilized or in savage times. The leaders of this revolt propose this +monstrous thing--that over a territory forty times as large as England, +the blight and curse of slavery shall be for ever perpetuated. + +I cannot believe, for my part, that such a fate will befall that fair +land, stricken though it now is with the ravages of war. I cannot +believe that civilization, in its journey with the sun, will sink into +endless night in order to gratify the ambition of the leaders of this +revolt, who seek to + + 'Wade through slaughter to a throne, + And shut the gates of mercy on mankind.' + +I have another and a far brighter vision before my gaze. It may be but a +vision, but I will cherish it. I see one vast confederation stretching +from the frozen North in unbroken line to the glowing South, and from +the wild billows of the Atlantic westward to the calmer waters of the +Pacific main,--and I see one people, and one language, and one law, and +one faith, and, over all that wide continent, the home of freedom, and a +refuge for the oppressed of every race and of every clime. + + * * * * * + +AMERICA. + +III. + +SLAVERY AND SECESSION. +ROCHDALE, FEBRUARY 3, 1863. + +[This speech was delivered at a public meeting held in the Public Hall, +Rochdale, for the purpose of passing a resolution of thanks to the +merchants of New York, for their generous contributions to the relief of +the suffering population of the cotton districts.] + +I feel as if we were in our places to-night, for we are met for the +purpose of considering, and, I doubt not, of agreeing to a resolution +expressive of our sense of the generosity of the merchants of New York, +and other citizens of the United States, who have, in the midst of so +many troubles and such great sacrifices, contributed to the relief of +that appalling distress which has prevailed, and does still prevail, in +this county. + +I regard this transmission of assistance from the United States as a +proof that the world moves onward in the direction of a better time. It +is an evidence that, whatever may be the faults of ambitious men, and +sometimes, may I not say, the crimes of Governments, the peoples are +drawing together, and beginning to learn that it never was intended that +they should be hostile to each other, but that every nation should take +a brotherly interest in every other nation in the world. There has been, +as we all know, not a little jealousy between some portions of the +people of this country and some portions of the people of the United +States. Perhaps the jealousy has existed more on this side. I think it +has found more expression here, probably through the means of the public +press, than has been the case with them. I am not alluding now to the +last two years, but as long as most of us have been readers of +newspapers and observers of what has passed around us. + +The establishment of independence, eighty years ago; the war of 1812; it +may be, occasionally, the presumptuousness and the arrogance of a +growing and prosperous nation on the other side of the Atlantic--these +things have stimulated ill feeling and jealousy here, which have often +found expression in language which has not been of the very kindest +character. But why should there be this jealousy between these two +nations? Mr. Ashworth has said, and said very truly, 'Are they not our +own people?' I should think, as an Englishman, that to see that people +so numerous, so powerful, so great in so many ways, should be to us a +cause, not of envy or of fear, but rather of glory and rejoicing. + +I have never visited the United States, but I can understand the +pleasure with which an Englishman lands in a country three thousand +miles off, and finds that every man he meets speaks his own language. I +recollect some years ago reading a most amusing speech delivered by a +Suffolk country gentleman, at a Suffolk agricultural dinner, I think it +was, though I do not believe the speeches of Suffolk country gentlemen +at Suffolk agricultural meetings are generally very amusing. But this +was a very amusing speech. This gentleman had travelled; he had been in +the United States, and being intelligent enough to admire much that he +saw there, he gave to his audience a description of some things that he +had seen; but that which seemed to delight him most was this, that when +he stepped from the steamer on to the quay at New York, he found that +'everybody spoke Suffolk.' Now, if anybody from this neighbourhood +should visit New York, I am afraid that he will not find everybody +speaking Lancashire. Our dialect, as you know, is vanishing into the +past. It will be preserved to future times, partly in the works of Tim +Bobbin, but in a very much better and more instructive form in the +admirable writings of one of my oldest and most valued friends, who is +now upon this platform. But if we should not find the people of New York +speaking Lancashire, we should find them speaking English. And if we +followed a little further, and asked them what they read, we should find +that they read all the books that we read that are worth reading, and a +good many of their own, some of which have not yet reached us; that +there are probably more readers in the United States of Milton, and +Shakespeare, and Dryden, and Pope, and Byron, and Wordsworth, and +Tennyson, than are to be found in this country; because, I think, it +will probably be admitted by everybody who understands the facts of both +countries, that out of the twenty millions of population in the Free +States of America, there are more persons who can read well than there +are in the thirty millions of population of Great Britain and Ireland. + +And if we leave their literature and turn to their laws, we shall find +that their laws have the same basis as ours, and that many of the great +and memorable judgments of our greatest judges and lawyers are of high +authority with them. If we come to that priceless possession which we +have perhaps more clearly established than any other people in Europe, +that of personal freedom, we shall find that in the Free States of +America personal freedom is as much known, as well established, as fully +appreciated, and as completely enjoyed as it is now in this country. And +if we come to the form of their government, we shall find that it is in +its principle, in its essence, not very dissimilar from that which our +Constitution professes in this kingdom. The difference is this, that our +Constitution has never yet been fully enjoyed by the people; the House +in which forty-eight hours hence I may be sitting, is not as full and +fair and free a representation of the people as is the House of +Representatives that assembles at Washington. But, if there be +differences, are there not great points of agreement, and are there any +of these differences that justify us or them in regarding either nation +as foreign or hostile? + +Now, the people of Europe owe much more than they are often aware of to +the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the existence +of that great Republic. The United States have been in point of fact an +ark of refuge to the people of Europe, when fleeing from the storms and +the revolutions of the old continent. They have been, as far as the +artisans and labouring population of this country are concerned, a life- +boat to them; and they have saved hundreds of thousands of men and of +families from disastrous shipwreck. The existence of that free country +and that free government has had a prodigious influence upon freedom in +Europe and in England. If you could have before you a chart of the +condition of Europe when the United States became a nation, and another +chart of the condition of Europe now, you would see the difference, the +enormous stride which has been made in Europe; and you may rely upon it +that not a little of it has been occasioned by the influence of the +great example of that country, free in its political institutions beyond +all other countries, and yet maintaining its course in peace, preserving +order, and conferring upon all its people a degree of prosperity which +in these old countries is as yet unknown. + +I should like now to speak specially to the working men who are here, +who have no capital but their skill and their industry and their bodily +strength. In fifteen years from 1845 to 1860--and this is a fact which I +stated in this room more than a year ago, when speaking on the question +of America, but it is a fact which every working man ought to have in +his mind always when he is considering what America is--in fifteen years +there have emigrated to the United States from Great Britain and Ireland +not less than two million four hundred thousand persons. Millions are +easily spoken, not easily counted, with great difficulty comprehended; +but the twenty-four hundred thousand persons that I have described means +a population equal to not less than sixty towns, every one of them of +the size and population of Rochdale. And every one of these men who have +emigrated, as he crossed the Atlantic--if he went by steam, in a +fortnight, and if he went by sails, in a month or five weeks--found +himself in a country where to his senses a vast revolution had taken +place, comprehending all that men anticipate from any kind of revolution +that shall advance political and social equality in their own land--a +revolution which commenced in the War of Independence, which has been +going on, and which has been confirmed by all that has transpired in +subsequent years. + +He does not find that he belongs to what are called the 'lower classes;' +he is not shut out from any of the rights of citizenship; he is admitted +to the full enjoyment of all political privileges, as far as they are +extended to any portion of the population; and he has there advantages +which the people of this country have not yet gained, because we are but +gradually making our way out of the darkness and the errors and the +tyrannies of past ages. But in America he finds the land not cursed with +feudalism; it is free to every man to buy and sell, and possess and +transmit. He finds in the town in which he lives that the noblest +buildings are the school-houses to which his children are freely +admitted. And among those twenty millions--for I am now confining my +observations to the Free States--the son of every man has easy admission +to school, has fair opportunity for improvement; and, if God has gifted +him with power of head and of heart; there is nothing of usefulness, +nothing of greatness, nothing of success in that country to which he may +not fairly aspire. + +And, Sir, this makes a difference between that country and this, on +which I must say another word. One of the most painful things to my mind +to be seen in England is this, that amongst the great body of those +classes which earn their living by their daily labour--it is +particularly observable in the agricultural districts, and it is too +much to be observed even in our own districts--there is an absence of +that hope which every man ought to have in his soul that there is for +him, if he be industrious and frugal, a comfortable independence as he +advances in life. In the United States that hope prevails everywhere, +because everywhere there is an open career; there is no privileged +class; there is complete education extended to all, and every man feels +that he was not born to be in penury and in suffering, but that there is +no point in the social ladder to which he may not fairly hope to raise +himself by his honest efforts. + +Well, looking at all this--and I have but touched on some very prominent +facts--I should say that it offers to us every motive, not for fear, not +for jealousy, not for hatred, but rather for admiration, gratitude, and +friendship. I am persuaded of this as much as I am of anything that I +know or believe, that the more perfect the friendship that is +established between the people of England and the free people of +America, the more you will find your path of progress here made easy for +you, and the more will social and political liberty advance amongst us. + +But this country which I have been in part describing is now the scene +of one of the greatest calamities that can afflict mankind. After +seventy years of almost uninterrupted peace, it has become the scene of +a civil war, more gigantic, perhaps, than any that we have any record of +with regard to any other nation or any other people; for the scene of +this warfare is so extended as to embrace a region almost equal in size +to the whole of Europe. At this very moment military operations are +being undertaken at points as distant from each other as Madrid is +distant from Moscow. But this great strife cannot have arisen amongst an +educated and intelligent people without some great and overruling cause. +Let us for a moment examine that cause, and let us ask ourselves whether +it is possible at such a time to stand neutral in regard to the +contending parties, and to refuse our sympathy to one or the other of +them. I find men sometimes who profess a strict neutrality; they wish +neither the one thing nor the other. This arises either from the fact +that they are profoundly ignorant with regard to this matter, or else +that they sympathise with the South, but are rather ashamed to admit it. + +There are two questions concerned in this struggle. Hitherto, generally, +one only has been discussed. There is the question whether negro slavery +shall continue to be upheld amongst Christian nations, or whether it +shall be entirely abolished. Because, bear in mind that if the result of +the struggle that is now proceeding in America should abolish slavery +within the territories of the United States, then soon after slavery in +Brazil, and slavery in Cuba, will also fall. I was speaking the other +day to a gentleman well acquainted with Cuban affairs; he is often in +the habit of seeing persons who come from Cuba to this country on +business; and I asked him what his Cuban friends said of what was going +on in America. He said, 'They speak of it with the greatest +apprehension; all the property of Cuba,' he said, 'is based on slavery; +and they say that if slavery comes to an end in America, as they believe +it will, through this war, slavery will have a very short life in Cuba.' +Therefore, the question which is being now tried is, not merely whether +four millions of slaves in America shall be free, but whether the vast +number of slaves (I know not the number) in Cuba and Brazil shall also +be liberated. + +But there is another question besides that of the negro, and which to +you whom I am now addressing is scarcely less important. I say that the +question of freedom to men of all races is deeply involved in this great +strife in the United States. I said I wanted the working men of this +audience to listen to my statement, because it is to them that I +particularly wish to address myself. I say, that not only is the +question of negro slavery concerned in this struggle, but, if we are to +take the opinion of leading writers and men in the Southern States of +America, the freedom of white men is not safe in their hands. Now, I +will not trouble you with pages of extracts which would confirm all that +I am about to say, but I shall read you two or three short ones which +will explain exactly what I mean. + +The city of Richmond, as you know, is the capital of what is called the +Southern Confederacy. In that city a newspaper is published, called the +_Richmond Examiner_, which is one of the most able, and perhaps +about the most influential, paper published in the Slave States. Listen +to what the _Richmond Examiner_ says:-- + + The experiment of universal liberty has failed. The evils of free + society are insufferable. Free society in the long run is + impracticable; it is everywhere starving, demoralizing, and + insurrectionary. Policy and humanity alike forbid the extension + of its evils to new peoples and to coming generations; and + therefore free society must fall and give way to a slave society-- + a social system old as the world, universal as man.' + +Well, on another occasion, the same paper treats the subject in this +way. The writer says:-- + + 'Hitherto the defence of slavery has encountered great + difficulties, because its apologists stopped half way. They + confined the defence of slavery to negro slavery alone, + abandoning the principle of slavery, and admitting that every + other form of slavery was wrong. Now the line of defence is + changed. The South maintains that slavery is just, natural, and + necessary, and that it does not depend on the difference of + complexions.' + +But following up this is an extract from a speech by a Mr. Cobb, who is +an eminent man in Southern politics and in Southern opinion. He says:-- + + 'There is, perhaps, no solution of the great problem of + reconciling the interests of labour and capital, so as to protect + each from the encroachments and oppressions of the other, so + simple and effective as negro slavery. By making the labourer + himself capital, the conflict ceases, and the interests become + identical.' + +Now, I do not know whether there is any working man here who does not +fully or partly realize the meaning of those extracts. They mean this, +that if a man in this neighbourhood (for they pity us very much in our +benighted condition as regards capital and labour, and they have an +admirable way, from their view, of putting an end to strikes)--they say +that, if a man in this neighbourhood had ten thousand pounds sterling in +a cotton or woollen factory, and he employed a hundred men, women, and +children, that instead of paying them whatever wages had been agreed +upon, allowing them to go to the other side of the town, and work where +they liked, or to move to another county, or to emigrate to America, or +to have any kind of will or wish whatever with regard to their own +disposal, that they should be to him capital, just the same as the +horses are in his stable; that he should sell the husband South,-- +'South' in America means something very dreadful to the negro,--that +they should sell the wife if they liked, that they should sell the +children, that, in point of fact, they should do whatsoever they liked +with them, and that, if any one of them resisted any punishment which +the master chose to inflict, the master should be held justified if he +beat his slave to death; and that not one of those men should have the +power to give evidence in any court of justice, in any case, against a +white man, however much he might have suffered from that white man. + +You will observe that this most important paper in the South writes for +that principle, and this eminent Southern politician indorses it, and +thinks it a cure for all the evils which exist in the Old World and in +the Northern and Free States; and there is not a paper in the South, nor +is there a man as eminent or more eminent than Mr. Cobb, who has dared +to write or speak in condemnation of the atrocity of that language. I +believe this great strife to have had its origin in an infamous +conspiracy against the rights of human nature. Those principles, which +they distinctly avow and proclaim, are not to be found, as far as I +know, in the pages of any heathen writer of old times, nor are they to +be discovered in the teachings or the practice of savage nations in our +times. It is the doctrine of devils, and not of men; and all mankind +should shudder at the enormity of the guilt which the leaders of this +conspiracy have brought upon that country. + +Now, let us look at two or three facts, which seem to me very +remarkable, on the surface of the case, but which there are men in this +country, and I am told they may be found even in this town, who +altogether ignore and deny. The war was not commenced by those to whom +your resolution refers; it was commenced by the South; they rebelled +against the majority. It was not a rebellion against a monarchy, or an +aristocracy, or some other form of government which has its hold upon +people, sometimes by services, but often from tradition; but it was +against a Government of their own, and a compact of their own, that they +violently rebelled, and for the expressed and avowed purpose of +maintaining the institution of slavery, and for the purpose, not +disavowed, of re-opening the slave trade, and, as these extracts show, +if their principles should be fully carried out, of making bondage +universal among all classes of labourers and artisans. When I say that +their object was to re-open the slave trade, do not for a moment imagine +that I am overstating the case against them. They argue, with a perfect +logic, that, if slavery was right, the slave trade could not be wrong; +if the slave trade be wrong, slavery cannot be right; and that if it be +lawful and moral to go to the State of Virginia and buy a slave for two +thousand dollars, and take him to Louisiana, it cannot be wrong to go to +Africa, and buy a slave for fifty dollars, and take him to Louisiana. +That was their argument; it is an argument to this day, and is an +argument that in my opinion no man can controvert; and the lawful +existence of slavery is as a matter of course to be followed, and would +be followed, wherever there was the power, by the re-opening of the +traffic in negroes from Africa. + +That is not all these people have done. Reference has been made, in the +resolution and in the speeches, to the distress which prevails in this +district, and you are told, and have been told over and over again, that +all this distress has arisen from the blockade of the ports of the +Southern States. There is at least one great port from which in past +times two millions of bales of cotton a-year have found their way to +Europe--the port of New Orleans--which is blockaded; and the United +States Government has proclaimed that any cotton that is sent from the +interior to New Orleans for shipment, although it belongs to persons in +arms against the Government, shall yet be permitted to go to Europe, and +they shall receive unmolested the proceeds of the sale of that cotton. +But still the cotton does not come. The reason why it does not come is, +not because it would do harm to the United States Government for it to +come, or that it would in any way assist the United States Government in +carrying on the war. The reason that it does not come is, because its +being kept back is supposed to be a way of influencing public opinion in +England and the course of the English Government in reference to the +American war. They burn the cotton that they may injure us, and they +injure us because they think that we cannot live even for a year without +their cotton; and that to get it we should send ships of war, break the +blockade, make war upon the North, and assist the slave-owners to +maintain, or to obtain, their independence. + +Now, with regard to the question of American cotton, one or two extracts +will be sufficient; but I could give you a whole pamphlet of them, if it +were necessary. Mr. Mann, an eminent person in the State of Georgia, +says:-- + + 'With the failure of the cotton, England fails. Stop her supply + of Southern slave-grown cotton, and her factories stop, her + commerce stops, the healthful normal circulation of her life- + blood stops.' + +Again he says:-- + + 'In one year from the stoppage of England's supply of Southern + slave-grown cotton, the Chartists would be in all her streets and + fields, revolution would be rampant throughout the island, and + nothing that is would exist.' + +He also says, addressing an audience:-- + + 'Why, Sirs, British lords hold their lands, British bishops hold + their revenues, Victoria holds her sceptre, by the grace of + cotton, as surely as by the grace of God.' + +Senator Wigfall says:-- + + 'If we stop the supply of cotton for one week, England would be + starving. Queen Victoria's crown would not stand on her head one + week, if the supply of cotton was stopped; nor would her head + stand on her shoulders.' + +Mr. Stephens, who is the Vice-President of the Southern Confederacy, +says:-- + + 'There will be revolution in Europe, there will be starvation + there; our cotton is the element that will do it.' + +Now, I am not stating the mere result of any discovery of my own, but it +would be impossible to read the papers of the South, or the speeches +made in the South, before, and at the time of, and after the secession, +without seeing that the universal opinion there was, that the stoppage +of the supply of cotton would be our instantaneous ruin, and that if +they could only lay hold of it, keep it back in the country, or burn it, +so that it never could be used, that then the people of Lancashire, +merchants, manufacturers, and operatives in mills--everybody dependent +upon this vast industry--would immediately arise and protest against the +English Government abstaining for one moment from the recognition of the +South, from war with the North, and from a resolution to do the utmost +that we could to create a slave-holding independent republic in the +South. + +And these very men who have been wishing to drag us into a war that +would have covered us with everlasting infamy, have sent their envoys to +this country, Mr. Yancey, Mr. Mann (I do not know whether or not the +same Mr. Mann to whom I have been referring), and Mr. Mason, the author +of the Fugitive Slave Law. These men have been in this country,--one of +them I believe is here now,--envoys sent to offer friendship to the +Queen of England, to be received at her Court, and to make friends with +the great men in London. They come,--I have seen them under the gallery +of the House of Commons; I have seen Members of the House shaking hands +with them and congratulating them, if there has been some military +success on their side, and receiving them as if they were here from the +most honourable Government, and with the most honourable mission. Why, +the thing which they have broken off from the United States to maintain, +is felony by your law. They are not only slave owners, slave buyers and +sellers, but that which out of Pandemonium itself was never before +conceived,--they are slave breeders for the slave market; and these men +have come to your country, and are to be met with at elegant tables in +London, and are in fast friendship with some of your public men, and are +constantly found in some of your newspaper offices; and they are here to +ask Englishmen--Englishmen with a history of freedom--to join hands with +their atrocious conspiracy. + +I regret more than I have words to express this painful fact, that of +all the countries in Europe this country is the only one which has men +in it who are willing to take active steps in favour of this intended +slave government. We supply the ships; we supply the arms, the munitions +of war; we give aid and comfort to this foulest of all crimes. +Englishmen only do it. I believe you have not seen a single statement in +the newspapers that any French, or Belgian, or Dutch, or Russian ship +has been engaged in, or seized whilst attempting to violate the blockade +and to carry arms to the South. They are English Liberal newspapers only +which support this stupendous iniquity. They are English statesmen only, +who profess to be liberal, who have said a word to favour the authors of +this now--enacting revolution in America. + +The other day, not a week since, a member of the present Government,--he +is not a statesman--he is the son of a great statesman, and occupies the +position of Secretary for Ireland,--he dared to say to an English +audience that he wished the Republic to be divided, and that the South +should become an independent State. If that island which--I suppose in +punishment for some of its offences--has been committed to his care,--if +that island were to attempt to secede, not to set up a slave kingdom, +but a kingdom more free than it has ever yet been, the Government of +which he is a member would sack its cities and drench its soil with +blood before they would allow such a kingdom to be established. + +But the working men of England, and I will say it too for the great body +of the middle classes of England, have not been wrong upon this great +question. As for you,--men labouring from morn till night that you may +honourably and honestly maintain your families, and the independence of +your households,--you are too slowly emerging from a condition of things +far from independent--far from free--for you to have sympathy with this +fearful crime which I have been describing. You come, as it were, from +bonds yourselves, and you can sympathize with them who are still in +bondage. + +See that meeting that was held in Manchester a month ago, in the Free +Trade Hall, of five or six thousand men. See the address which they +there carried unanimously to the President of the United States. See +that meeting held the other night in Exeter Hall, in London; that vast +room, the greatest room, I suppose, in the Metropolis, filled so much +that its overflowings filled another large room in the same building, +and when that was full, the further overflowings filled the street; and +in both rooms, and in the street, speeches were made on this great +question. But what is said by the writers in this infamous Southern +press in this country with regard to that meeting? Who was there? 'A +gentleman who had written a novel, and two or three Dissenting +ministers,' I shall not attempt any defence of those gentlemen. What +they do, they do openly, in the face of day; and if they utter +sentiments on this question, it is from a public platform, with +thousands of their countrymen gazing into their faces. These men who +slander them write behind a mask,--and, what is more, they dare not tell +in the open day that which they write in the columns of their journal. +But if it be true that there is nothing in the writer of a successful +novel, or in two or three pious and noble-minded Dissenting ministers, +to collect a great audience, what does it prove if there was a great +audience? It only proves that they were not collected by the reputation +of any orator who was expected to address them, but by their cordial and +ardent sympathy for the great cause which was pleaded before them. + +Everybody now that I meet says to me, 'Public opinion seems to have +undergone a considerable change.' The fact is, people do not know very +much about America. They are learning more every day. They have been +greatly misled by what are called 'the best public instructors.' +Jefferson, who was one of the greatest men that the United States have +produced, said that newspapers should be divided into four compartments: +in one of them they should print the true; in the next, the probable; in +the third, the possible; and in the fourth, the lies. With regard to +some of these newspapers, I incline to think, as far as their leading +columns go, that an equal division of space would be found very +inconvenient, and that the last-named compartment, when dealing with +American questions, would have to be at least four times as large as the +first. + +Coming back to the question of this war; I admit, of course--everybody +must admit--that we are not responsible for it, for its commencement, or +for the manner in which it is conducted; nor can we be responsible for +its result. But there is one thing which we are responsible for, and +that is for our sympathies, for the manner in which we regard it, and +for the tone in which we discuss it. What shall we say, then, with +regard to it? On which side shall we stand? I do not believe it is +possible to be strictly, coldly neutral. The question at issue is too +great, the contest is too grand in the eye of the world. It is +impossible for any man, who can have an opinion worth anything on any +question, not to have some kind of an opinion on the question of this +war. I am not ashamed of my opinion, or of the sympathy which I feel, +and have over and over again expressed, on the side of the free North. I +cannot understand how any man witnessing what is enacting on the +American continent can indulge in small cavils against the free people +of the North, and close his eye entirely to the enormity of the purposes +of the South. I cannot understand how any Englishman, who in past years +has been accustomed to say that 'there was one foul blot upon the fair +fame of the American Republic,' can now express any sympathy for those +who would perpetuate and extend that blot. And, more, if we profess to +be, though it be with imperfect and faltering steps, the followers of +Him who declared it to be His Divine mission 'to heal the broken- +hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight +to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,' must we not +reject with indignation and scorn the proffered alliance and friendship +with a power based on human bondage, and which contemplates the +overthrow and the extinction of the dearest rights of the most helpless +of mankind? + +If we are the friends of freedom, personal and political,--and we all +profess to be so, and most of us, more or less, are striving after it +more completely for our own country,--how can we withhold our sympathy +from a Government and a people amongst whom white men have always been +free, and who are now offering an equal freedom to the black? I advise +you not to believe in the 'destruction' of the American nation. If facts +should happen by any chance to force you to believe it, do not commit +the crime of wishing it. I do not blame men who draw different +conclusions from mine from the facts, and who believe that the +restoration of the Union is impossible. As the facts lie before our +senses, so must we form a judgment on them. But I blame those men that +wish for such a catastrophe. For myself, I have never despaired, and I +will not despair. In the language of one of our old poets, who wrote, I +think, more than three hundred years ago, I will not despair,-- + + 'For I have seen a ship in haven fall, + After the storm had broke both mast and shroud.' + +From the very outburst of this great convulsion, I have had but one hope +and one faith, and it is this--that the result of this stupendous strife +may be to make freedom the heritage for ever of a whole continent, and +that the grandeur and the prosperity of the American Union may never be +impaired. + + * * * * * + +AMERICA. + +IV. + +THE STRUGGLE IN AMERICA. +ST. JAMES'S HALL, MARCH 26, 1863. + +[The meeting at which this speech was delivered was convened by the +Trades' Unions of London to enable the working men to express their +sentiments on the war in the United States. Mr. Bright was Chairman of +the meeting.] + +When the Committee did me the honour to ask me to attend this meeting +to-night and to take the Chair, I felt that I was not at liberty to +refuse, for I considered that there was something remarkable in the +character of this meeting; and I need not tell you that the cause which +we are assembled to discuss is one which excites my warmest sympathies. +This meeting is remarkable, inasmuch as it is not what is commonly +called a public meeting, but it is a meeting, as you have seen from the +announcements and advertisements by which it has been called--it is a +meeting of members of Trades' Unions and Trades' Societies in London. +The members of these Societies have not usually stepped out from their +ordinary business to take part in meetings of this kind on public +questions. + +The subject which we have met to discuss is one of surpassing interest-- +which excites at this moment, and has excited for two years past, the +attention and the astonishment of the civilized world. We see a country +which for many years--during the lifetime of the oldest amongst us--has +been the most peaceful, and prosperous, and the most free amongst the +great nations of the earth--we see it plunged at once into the midst of +a sanguinary revolution, whose proportions are so gigantic as to dwarf +all other revolutionary records and events of which we have any +knowledge. But I do not wonder at this revolution. No man can read the +history of the United States from the time when they ceased to be +dependent colonies of England, without discovering that at the birth of +that great Republic there was sown the seed, if not of its dissolution, +at least of its extreme peril; and the infant giant in its cradle may be +said to have been rocked under the shadow of the cypress, which is the +symbol of mortality and of the tomb. + +Colonial weakness, when face to face with British strength, made it +impossible to put an end to slavery, or to establish a republic free +from slavery. To meet England, it was necessary to be united, and to be +united it was necessary to tolerate slavery; and from that hour to this-- +at least, to a period within the last two or three years--the love of +the Union and the patriotism of the American people have induced them +constantly to make concessions to slavery, because they knew that when +they ceased to make concessions they ran the peril of that disruption +which has now arrived; and they dreaded the destruction of their country +even more than they hated the evil of slavery. But these concessions +failed, as I believe concessions to evil always do fail. These +concessions failed to secure safety in that Union. There were principles +at war which were wholly irreconcilable. The South, as you know, has +been engaged for fifty years in building fresh ramparts by which it may +defend its institutions. The North has been growing yearly greater in +freedom; and though the conflict might be postponed, it was obviously +inevitable. + +In our day, then, that which the statesmen of America have hoped +permanently to postpone has arrived. The great trial is now going on in +the sight of the world, and the verdict upon this great question must at +last be rendered. But how much is at stake? Some men of this country, +some writers, treat it as if, after all, it was no great matter that had +caused this contest in the United States. I say that a whole continent +is at stake. It is not a question of boundary; it is not a question of +tariff; it is not a question of supremacy of party, or even of the +condition of four millions of negroes. It is more than that. It is a +question of a whole continent, with its teeming millions, and what shall +be their present and their future fate. It is for these millions freedom +or slavery, education or ignorance, light or darkness, Christian +morality ever widening and all-blessing in its influence, or an +overshadowing and all-blasting guilt. + +There are men, good men, who say that we in England, who are opposed to +war, should take no public part in this great question. Only yesterday I +received from a friend of mine, whose fidelity I honour, a letter, in +which he asked me whether I thought, with the views which he supposed I +entertain on the question of war, it was fitting that I should appear at +such a meeting as this. It is not our war; we did not make it. We deeply +lament it. It is not in our power to bring it to a close; but I know not +that we are called upon to shut our eyes and to close our hearts to the +great issues which are depending upon it. Now we are met here, let us +ask each other some questions. Has England any opinion with regard to +this American question? Has England any sympathy, on one side or the +other, with either party in this great struggle? But, to come nearer, I +would ask whether this meeting has any opinion upon it, and whether our +sympathies have been stirred in relation to it? It is true, to this +meeting not many rich, not many noble, have been called. It is a meeting +composed of artisans and working men of the city of London,--men whose +labour, in combination with capital and directing skill, has built this +great city, and has made England great. I address myself to these men. I +ask them--I ask you--have you any special interest in this contest? + +Privilege thinks it has a great interest in it, and every morning, with +blatant voice, it comes into your streets and curses the American +Republic. Privilege has beheld an afflicting spectacle for many years +past. It has beheld thirty millions of men, happy and prosperous, +without emperor, without king, without the surroundings of a court, +without nobles, except such as are made by eminence in intellect and +virtue, without State bishops and State priests,-- + + 'Sole venders of the lore which works salvation,'-- + +without great armies and great navies, without great debt and without +great taxes. Privilege has shuddered at what might happen to old Europe +if this grand experiment should succeed. But you, the workers,--you, +striving after a better time,--you, struggling upwards towards the +light, with slow and painful steps,--you have no cause to look with +jealousy upon a country which, amongst all the great nations of the +globe, is that one where labour has met with the highest honour, and +where it has reaped its greatest reward. Are you aware of the fact, that +in fifteen years, which is but as yesterday when it is past, two and a +half millions of your countrymen have found a home in the United +States,--that a population equal nearly, if not quite, to the population +of this great city--itself equal to no mean kingdom--has emigrated from +these shores? In the United States there has been, as you know, an open +door for every man,--and millions have entered into it, and have found +rest. + +Now, take the two sections of the country which are engaged in this +fearful struggle. In the one, labour is honoured more than elsewhere in +the world; there, more than in any other country, men rise to competence +and independence; a career is open; the pursuit of happiness is not +hopelessly thwarted by the law. In the other section of that country, +labour is not only not honoured, but it is degraded. The labourer is +made a chattel. He is no more his own than the horse that drags a +carriage through the next street; nor is his wife, nor is his child, nor +is anything that is his, his own. And if you have not heard the +astounding statement, it may be as well for a moment to refer to it,-- +that it is not black men only who should be slaves. Only to-day I read +from one of the Southern papers a statement that-- + + 'Slavery in the Jewish times was not the slavery of negroes; and + therefore, if you confine slavery to negroes, you lose your sheet + anchor, which is the Bible-argument in favour of slavery.' + +I think nothing can be more fitting for the discussion of the members of +the Trade Societies of London. You in your Trade Societies help each +other when you are sick, or if you meet with accidents. You do many kind +acts amongst each other. You have other business also; you have to +maintain what you believe to be the just rights of industry and of your +separate trades; and sometimes, as you know, you do things which many +people do not approve, and which, probably, when you come to think more +coolly of them, you may even doubt the wisdom of yourselves. That is +only saying that you are not immaculate, and that your wisdom, like the +wisdom of other classes, is not absolutely perfect. But they have in the +Southern States a specific for all the differences between capital and +labour. They say,-- + + 'Make the labourer capital; the free system in Europe is a rotten + system; let us get rid of that, and make all the labourers as + much capital and as much the property of the capitalist and + employer as the capitalist's cattle and horses are property, and + then the whole system will move with that perfect ease and + harmony which the world admires so much in the Southern States of + America.' + +I believe there never was a question submitted to the public opinion of +the world which it was more becoming the working men and members of +Trades' Unions and Trade Societies of every kind in this country fully +to consider, than this great question. + +But there may be some in this room, and there are some who say to me, +'But what is to become of our trade, what is to become of the capitalist +and the labourer of Lancashire?' I am not sure that much of the capital +of Lancashire will not be ruined. I am not sure that very large numbers +of its population will not have to remove to seek other employment, +either in this or some other country. I am not one of those who +underrate this great calamity. On the contrary, I have scarcely met with +any man,--not more than half a dozen,--since this distress in our county +began, who has been willing to measure the magnitude of this calamity +according to the scale with which I have viewed it. + +But let us examine this question. The distress of Lancashire comes from +a failure of the supply of cotton. The failure of the supply of cotton +comes from the war in the United States. The war in the United States +has originated in the effort of the slaveholders of that country to +break up what they themselves admit to be the freest and best government +that ever existed, for the sole purpose of making perpetual the +institution of slavery. But if the South began the war, and created all +the mischief, does it look reasonable that we should pat them on the +back, and be their friends? If they have destroyed cotton, or withheld +it, shall we therefore take them to our bosoms? + +I have a letter written by an agent in the city of Nashville, who had +been accustomed to buy cotton there before the war, and who returned +there immediately after that city came into the possession of the +Northern forces. He began his trade, and cotton came in. Not Union +planters only, but Secession planters, began to bring in the produce of +their plantations, and he had a fair chance of re-establishing his +business; but the moment this was discovered by the commanders of the +Southern forces at some distance from the city, they issued the most +peremptory orders that every boat-load of cotton on the rivers, every +waggon-load upon the roads, and every car-load upon the railroads, that +was leaving any plantations for the purposes of sale, should be +immediately destroyed. The result was, that the cotton trade was at once +again put an end to, and I believe only to a very small extent has it +been reopened, even to this hour. + +Then take the State of New Orleans, which, as you know, has been now for +many months in the possession of the Northern forces. The Northern +commanders there had issued announcements that any cotton sent down to +New Orleans for exportation, even though it came from the most resolved +friends of secession in the district, should still be safe. It might be +purchased to ship to Europe, and the proceeds of that cotton might be +returned, and the trade be re-opened. But you have not found cotton come +down to New Orleans, although its coming there under those terms would +be of no particular advantage to the North. It has been withheld with +this single object, to create in the manufacturing districts of France +and England a state of suffering that might at last become unbearable, +and thus might compel the Governments of those countries, in spite of +all that international law may teach, in spite of all that morality may +enjoin upon them, to take sides with the South, and go to war with the +North for the sake of liberating whatever cotton there is now in the +plantations of the Secession States. + +At this moment, such of you as read the City articles of the daily +papers will see that a loan has been contracted for in the City, to the +amount of three millions sterling, on behalf of the Southern +Confederacy. It is not brought into the market by any firm with an +English name; but I am sorry to be obliged to believe that many +Englishmen have taken portions of that loan. Now the one great object of +that loan is this, to pay in this country for vessels which are being +built--_Alabamas_--from which it is hoped that so much irritation +will arise in the minds of the people of the Northern States, that +England may be dragged into war to take sides with the South and with +slavery. The South was naturally hostile to England, because England was +hostile to slavery. Now the great hope of the insurrection has been from +the beginning, that Englishmen would not have fortitude to bear the +calamities which it has brought upon us; but by some trick or by some +accident we might be brought into a war with the North, and thereby give +strength to the South. + +I should hope that this question is now so plain that most Englishmen +must understand it; and least of all do I expect that the six millions +of men in the United Kingdom who are not enfranchised can have any doubt +upon it. Their instincts are always right in the main, and if they get +the facts and information, I can rely on their influence being thrown +into the right scale. I wish I could state what would be as satisfactory +to myself with regard to some others. There may be men outside, there +are men sitting amongst your legislators, who will build and equip +corsair ships to prey upon the commerce of a friendly power,--who will +disregard the laws and the honour of their country,--who will trample on +the Proclamation of their sovereign,--and who, for the sake of the +glittering profit which sometimes waits on crime, are content to cover +themselves with everlasting infamy. There may be men, too--rich men--in +this city of London, who will buy in the slaveowners' loan, and who, for +the chance of more gain than honest dealing will afford them, will help +a conspiracy whose fundamental institution, whose corner-stone, is +declared to be felony, and infamous by the statutes of their country. + +I speak not to these men--I leave them to their conscience in that hour +which comes to all of us, when conscience speaks and the soul is no +longer deaf to her voice. I speak rather to you, the working men of +London, the representatives, as you are here to-night, of the feelings +and the interests of the millions who cannot hear my voice. I wish you +to be true to yourselves. Dynasties may fall, aristocracies may perish, +privilege will vanish into the dim past; but you, your children, and +your children's children, will remain, and from you the English people +will be continued to succeeding generations. + +You wish the freedom of your country. You wish it for yourselves. You +strive for it in many ways. Do not then give the hand of fellowship to +the worst foes of freedom that the world has ever seen, and do not, I +beseech you, bring down a curse upon your cause which no after-penitence +can ever lift from it. You will not do this. I have faith in you. +Impartial history will tell that, when your statesmen were hostile or +coldly neutral, when many of your rich men were corrupt, when your +press--which ought to have instructed and defended--was mainly written +to betray, the fate of a continent and of its vast population being in +peril, you clung to freedom with an unfaltering trust that God in His +infinite mercy will yet make it the heritage of all His children. + + * * * * * + +AMERICA. + +V. + +LONDON, JUNE 16, 1863. +[On June 16, 1863, a public meeting was held at the London Tavern, at +the instance of the Union and Emancipation Society, in order to hear an +address from Mr. M. D. Conway, of Eastern Virginia. Mr. Bright was in +the Chair.] + +If we look back a little over two years--two years and a half--when the +question of secession was first raised in a practical shape, I think we +shall be able to remember that, when the news first arrived in England, +there was but one opinion with regard to it--that every man condemned +the folly and the wickedness of the South, and protested against their +plea that they had any grievance which justified them in revolt--and +every man hoped that some mode might be discovered by which the terrible +calamity of war might be avoided. + +For a time, many thought that there would be no war. Whilst the reins +were slipping from the hands--the too feeble hands--of Mr. Buchanan into +the grasp of President Lincoln, there was a moment when men thought that +we were about to see the wonderful example of a great question, which in +all other countries would have involved a war, settled perhaps by +moderation--some moderation on one side, and some concession on the +other; and so long as men believed that there would be no war, so long +everybody condemned the South. We were afraid of a war in America, +because we knew that one of the great industries of our country depended +upon the continuous reception of its raw material from the Southern +States. But it was a folly--it was a gross absurdity--for any man to +believe, with the history of the world before him, that the people, of +the Northern States, twenty millions, with their free Government, would +for one moment sit down satisfied with the dismemberment of their +country, and make no answer to the war which had been commenced by the +South. + +I speak not in justification of war. I am only treating this question +upon principles which are almost universally acknowledged throughout the +world, and by an overwhelming majority even of those men who accept the +Christian religion; and it is only upon those principles, so almost +universally acknowledged, and acknowledged as much in this country as +anywhere else--it is only just that we should judge the United States +upon those principles upon which we in this country would be likely to +act. + +But the North did not yield to the dismemberment of their country, and +they did not allow a conspiracy of Southern politicians and slaveholders +to seize their forts and arsenals without preparing for resistance. +Then, when the people of England found that the North were about to +resist, and that war was inevitable, they turned their eyes from the +South, which was the beginner of the war, and looked to the North, +saying that, if the North would not resist, there could be no war, and +that we should get our cotton, and trade would go on as before; and +therefore, from that hour to this, not a few persons in this country, +who at first condemned the South, have been incessant in their +condemnation of the North. + +Now, I believe this is a fair statement of the feeling which prevailed +when the first news of secession arrived, and of the change of opinion +which took place in a few weeks, when it was found that, by the +resolution of the North to maintain the integrity of their country, war, +and civil war, was unavoidable. The trade interests of the country +affected our opinion; and I fear did then prevent, and have since +prevented, our doing justice to the people of the North. + +Now I am going to transport you, in mind, to Lancashire, and the +interests of Lancashire, which, after all, are the interests of the +whole United Kingdom, and clearly of not a few in this metropolis. What +was the condition of our greatest manufacturing industry before the war, +and before secession had been practically attempted? It was this: that +almost ninety per cent. of all our cotton came from the Southern States +of the American Union, and was, at least nine-tenths of it, the produce +of the uncompensated labour of the negro. + +Everybody knew that we were carrying on a prodigious industry upon a +most insecure foundation; and it was the commonest thing in the world +for men who were discussing the present and the future of the cotton +trade, whether in Parliament or out of it, to point to the existence of +slavery in the United States of America as the one dangerous thing in +connection with that great trade; and it was one of the reasons which +stimulated me on several occasions to urge upon the Government of this +country to improve the Government of India, and to give us a chance of +receiving a considerable portion of our supply from India, so that we +might not be left in absolute want when the calamity occurred, which all +thoughtful men knew must some day come, in the United States. + +Now, I maintain that with a supply of cotton mainly derived from the +Southern States, and raised by slave labour, two things are +indisputable: first, that the supply must always be insufficient; and +second, that it must always be insecure. Perhaps many of you are not +aware that in the United States--I am speaking of the Slave States, and +the cotton-growing States--the quantity of land which is cultivated for +cotton is a mere garden, a mere plot, in comparison with the whole of +the cotton region. I speak from the authority of a report lately +presented to the Boston Chamber of Commerce, containing much important +information on this question; and I believe that the whole acreage, or +the whole breadth of the land on which cotton is grown in America, does +not exceed ten thousand square miles--that is, a space one hundred miles +long and one hundred miles broad, or the size of two of our largest +counties in England; but the land of the ten chief cotton-producing +States is sixty times as much as that, being, I believe, about twelve +times the size of England and Wales. + +It cannot be, therefore, because there has not been land enough that we +have not in former years had cotton enough; it cannot be that there has +not been a demand for the produce of the land, for the demand has +constantly outstripped the supply; it has not been because the price has +not been sufficient, for, as is well known, the price has been much +higher of late years, and the profit to the planter much greater; and +yet, notwithstanding the land and the demand, and the price and the +profit, the supply of cotton has not been sufficient for the wants of +the spinners and the manufacturers of the world, and for the wants of +civilization. + +The particular facts with regard to this I need not, perhaps, enter +into; but I find, if I compare the prices of cotton in Liverpool from +1856 to 1860 with the prices from 1841 to 1845, that every pound of +cotton brought from America and sold in Liverpool fetched in the last +five years more than twenty per cent in excess of what it did in the +former five years, notwithstanding that we were every year in greater +difficulties through finding our supply of cotton insufficient. + +But what was the reason that we did not get enough? It was because there +was not labour enough in the Southern States. You see every day in the +newspapers that there are four millions of slaves, but of those four +millions of slaves some are growing tobacco, some rice, and some sugar; +a very large number are employed in domestic servitude, and a large +number in factories, mechanical operations, and business in towns; and +there remain only about one million negroes, or only one-quarter of the +whole number, who are regularly engaged in the cultivation of cotton. + +Now, you will see that the production of cotton and its continued +increase must depend upon the constantly increasing productiveness of +the labour of those one million negroes, and on the natural increase of +population from them. Well, the increase of the population of the slaves +in the United States is rather less than two and a-half per cent, per +annum, and the increase on the million will be about twenty-five +thousand a-year; and the increased production of cotton from that +increased amount of labour consisting of twenty-five thousand more +negroes every year will probably never exceed--I believe it has not +reached--one hundred and fifty thousand bales per annum. The exact facts +with regard to this are these: that in the ten years from 1841 to 1850 +the average crop was 2,173,000 bales, and in the ten years from 1851 to +1860 it was 3,252,000, being an increase of 1,079,000 bales in the ten +years, or only about 100,000 bales of increase per annum. + +I have shown that the increase of production must depend upon the +increase of labour, because every other element is in abundance--soil, +climate, and so forth. (A Voice: 'How about sugar?') A Gentleman asks +about sugar. If in any particular year there was an extravagant profit +upon cotton, there might be, and there probably would be, some +abstraction of labour from the cultivation of tobacco, and rice, and +sugar, in order to apply it to cotton, and a larger temporary increase, +of growth might take place; but I have given you the facts with regard +to the last twenty years, and I think you will see that my statement is +correct. Now, can this be remedied under slavery? I will show you how it +cannot. And first of all, everybody who is acquainted with American +affairs knows that there is not very much migration of the population of +the Northern States into the Southern States to engage in the ordinary +occupations of agricultural labour. Labour is not honourable and is not +honoured in the South; and therefore free labourers from the North are +not likely to go South. Again, of all the emigration from this country-- +amounting as it did, in the fifteen years from 1846 to 1860, to two +millions five hundred thousand persons, being equal to the whole of the +population of this great city--a mere trifle went South and settled +there to pursue the occupation of agriculture; they remained in the +North, where labour is honourable and honoured. + +Whence, then, could the planters of the South receive their increasing +labour? Only from the slave-ship and the coast of Africa. But, +fortunately for the world, the United States Government has never yet +become so prostrate under the heel of the slave-owner as to consent to +the reopening of the slave-trade. Therefore the Southern planter was in +this unfortunate position: he could not tempt, perhaps he did not want, +free labourers from the North; he could not tempt, perhaps he did not +want, free labourers from Europe; and if he did want, he was not +permitted to fetch slave labour from Africa. Well, that being so, we +arrive at this conclusion--that whilst the cultivation of cotton was +performed by slave labour, you were shut up for your hope of increased +growth to the small increase that was possible with the increase of two +and a half per cent per annum in the population of the slaves, about one +million in number, that have been regularly employed in the cultivation +of cotton. + +Then, if the growth was thus insufficient--and I as one connected with +the trade can speak very clearly upon that point--I ask you whether the +production and the supply were not necessarily insecure by reason of the +institution of slavery? It was perilous within the Union. In this +country we made one mistake in our forecast of this question: we did not +believe that the South would commit suicide; we thought it possible that +the slaves might revolt. They might revolt, but their subjugation was +inevitable, because the whole power of the Union was pledged to the +maintenance of order in every part of its dominions. + +But if there be men who think that the cotton trade would be safer if +the South were an independent State, with slavery established there in +permanence, they greatly mistake; because, whatever was the danger of +revolt in the Southern States whilst the Union was complete, the +possibility of revolt and the possibility of success would surely be +greatly increased if the North were separate from the South, and the +negro had only his Southern master, and not the Northern power, to +contend against. + +But I believe there is little danger of revolt, and no possibility of +success. When the revolt took place in the island of St. Domingo, the +blacks were far superior in numbers to the whites. In the Southern +States it is not so. Ignorant, degraded, without organization, without +arms, and scarcely with any faint hope of freedom for ever, except the +enthusiastic hope which they have when they believe that God will some +day stretch out His arm for their deliverance--I say that under these +circumstances, to my mind, there was no reasonable expectation of +revolt, and that they had no expectation whatever of success in any +attempt to gain their liberty by force of arms. + +But now we are in a different position. Slavery itself has chosen its +own issue, and has chosen its own field. Slavery--and when I say +slavery, I mean the slave power--has not trusted to the future; but it +has rushed into the battle-field to settle this great question; and +having chosen war, it is from day to day sinking to inevitable ruin +under it. Now, if we are agreed--and I am keeping you still to +Lancashire and to its interests for a moment longer--that this vast +industry with all its interests of capital and labour has been standing +on a menacing volcano, is it not possible that hereafter it may be +placed upon a rock which nothing--can disturb? + +Imagine--what of course some people will say I have no right to imagine-- +imagine the war over, the Union restored and slavery abolished--does +any man suppose that there would afterwards be in the South one single +negro fewer than there are at present? On the contrary, I believe there +would be more. I believe there is many a negro in the Northern States, +and even in Canada, who, if the lash, and the chain, and the branding- +iron, and the despotism against which even he dared not complain, were +abolished for ever, would turn his face to the sunny lands of the South, +and would find himself happier and more useful there than he can be in a +more Northern clime. + +More than this, there would be a migration from the North to the South. +You do not suppose that those beautiful States, those regions than which +earth offers nothing to man more fertile and more lovely, are shunned by +the enterprising population of the North because they like the rigours +of a Northern winter and the greater changeableness, of the Northern +seasons? Once abolish slavery in the South, and the whole of the +country will be open to the enterprise and to the industry of all. And +more than that, when you find that, only the other day, not fewer than +four thousand emigrants, most of them from the United Kingdom, landed in +one day in the city of New York, do you suppose that all those men would +go north and west at once? Would not some of them turn their faces +southwards, and seek the clime of the sun, which is so grateful to all +men; where they would find a soil more fertile, rivers more abundant, +and everything that Nature offers more profusely given, but from which +they are now shut out by the accursed power which slavery exerts? With +freedom you would have a gradual filling up of the wildernesses of the +Southern States; you would have there, not population only, but capital, +and industry, and roads, and schools, and everything which tends to +produce growth, and wealth, and prosperity. + +I maintain--and I believe my opinion will be supported by all those men +who are most conversant with American affairs--that, with slavery +abolished, with freedom firmly established in the South, you would find +in ten years to come a rapid increase in the growth of cotton; and not +only would its growth be rapid, but its permanent increase would be +secured. + +I said that I was interested in this great question of cotton. I come +from the midst of the great cotton industry of Lancashire; much the +largest portion of anything I have in the world depends upon it; not a +little of it is now utterly valueless, during the continuance of this +war. My neighbours, by thousands and scores of thousands, are suffering, +more or less, as I am suffering; and many of them, as you know--more +than a quarter of a million of them--have been driven from a subsistence +gained by their honourable labour to the extremest poverty, and to a +dependence upon the charity of their fellow-countrymen. My interest is +the interest of all the population. + +My interest is against a mere enthusiasm, a mere sentiment, a mere +visionary fancy of freedom as against slavery. I am speaking now as a +matter of business. I am glad when matters of business go straight with +matters of high sentiment and morality, and from this platform I declare +my solemn conviction that there is no greater enemy to Lancashire, to +its capital and to its labour, than the man who wishes the cotton +agriculture of the Southern States to be continued under the conditions +of slave labour. + +One word more upon another branch of the question, and I have done. I +would turn for a moment from commerce to politics. I believe that our +true commercial interests in this country are very much in harmony with +what I think ought to be our true political sympathies. There is no +people in the world, I think, that more fully and entirely accepts the +theory that one nation acts very much upon the character and upon the +career of another, than England; for our newspapers and our statesmen, +our writers and our speakers of every class, are constantly telling us +of the wonderful influence which English constitutional government and +English freedom have on the position and career of every nation in +Europe. I am not about to deny that some such influence, and +occasionally, I believe, a beneficent influence, is thus exerted; but if +we exert any influence upon Europe--and we pride ourselves upon it-- +perhaps it will not be a humiliation to admit that we feel some +influence exerted upon us by the great American Republic. American +freedom acts upon England, and there is nothing that is better known, at +the west end of this great city--from which I have just come--than the +influence that has been, and nothing more feared than the influence that +may be, exerted by the United States upon this country. + +We all of us know that there has been a great effect produced in England +by the career of the United States. An emigration of three or four +millions of persons from the United Kingdom, during the last forty +years, has bound us to them by thousands of family ties, and therefore +it follows that whatever there is that is good, and whatever there is +that is free in America, which we have not, we know something about, and +gradually may begin to wish for, and some day may insist upon having. + +And when I speak of 'us,' I mean the people of this country. When I am +asserting the fact that the people of England have a great interest in +the well-being of the American Republic, I mean the people of England. I +do not speak of the wearers of crowns or of coronets, but of the twenty +millions of people in this country who live on their labour, and who, +having no votes, are not counted in our political census, but without +whom there could be no British nation at all. I say that these have an +interest, almost as great and direct as though they were living in +Massachusetts or New York, in the tremendous struggle for freedom which +is now shaking the whole North American Continent. + +During the last two years there has been much said, and much written, +and some things done in this country, which are calculated to gain us +the hate of both sections of the American Union. I believe that a course +of policy might have been taken by the English press, and by the English +Government, and by what are called the influential classes in England, +that would have bound them to our hearts and us to their hearts. I speak +of the twenty millions of the Free North. I believe we might have been +so thoroughly united with that people, that all remembrance of the war +of the Revolution and of the war of 1812 would have been obliterated, +and we should have been in heart and spirit for all time forth but one +nation. + +I can only hope that, as time passes, and our people become better +informed, they will be more just, and that ill feeling of every kind +will pass away; that in future all who love freedom here will hold +converse with all who love freedom there, and that the two nations, +separated as they are by the ocean, come as they are, notwithstanding, +of one stock, may be in future time united in soul, and may work +together for the advancement of the liberties and the happiness of +mankind. + + * * * * * + +AMERICA. + +IV. + +MR. ROEBUCK'S MOTION FOR RECOGNITION OF THE +SOUTHERN CONFEDERACY. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 30, 1863. + +I will not attempt to follow the noble Lord in the laboured attack which +he has made upon the Treasury Bench, for these two reasons:--that he did +not appear to me very much to understand what it was he was condemning +them for; and, again, I am not in the habit of defending Gentlemen who +sit on that bench. I will address myself to the question before the +House, which I think the House generally feels to be very important, +although I am quite satisfied that they do not feel it to be a practical +one. Neither do I think that the House will be disposed to take any +course in support of the hon. Gentleman who introduced the resolution +now before us. + +We sometimes are engaged in discussions, and have great difficulty to +know what we are about; but the hon. Gentleman left us in no kind of +doubt when he sat down. He proposed a resolution, in words which, under +certain circumstances and addressed to certain parties, might end in +offensive or injurious consequences. Taken in connection with his +character, and with the speech he has made tonight, and with the speech +he has recently made elsewhere on this subject, I may say that he would +have come to about the same conclusion if he had proposed to address the +Crown inviting the Queen to declare war against the United States of +America. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is known not to be very +zealous in the particular line of opinion that I have adopted, addressed +the hon. Gentleman in the smoothest language possible, but still he was +obliged to charge him with the tone of bitter hostility which marked his +speech. + +On a recent occasion the hon. Member addressed some members of his +constituency--I do not mean in his last speech, I mean in the speech in +August last year--in which he entered upon a course of prophecy which, +like most prophecies in our day, does not happen to come true. But he +said then what he said to-night, that the American people and Government +were overbearing. He did not tell his constituents that the Government +of the United States had, almost during the whole of his lifetime, been +conducted by his friends of the South. He said that, if they were +divided, they would not be able to bully the whole world; and he made +use of these expressions: 'The North will never be our friends; of the +South you can make friends,--they are Englishmen,--they are not the scum +and refuse of the world.' + +Mr. Roebuck: 'Allow me to correct that statement. What I said I now +state to the House, that the men of the South were Englishmen, but that +the army of the North was composed of the scum of Europe.' + +Mr. Bright: I take, of course, that explanation of the hon. and learned +Gentleman, with this explanation from me, that there is not, so far as I +can find, any mention near that paragraph, and I think there is not in +the speech a single word, about the army. + +Mr. Roebuck: 'I assure you I said that.' + +Mr. Bright: Then I take it for granted that the hon. and learned +Gentleman said that, or that if he said what I have read he greatly +regrets it. + +Mr. Roebuck: 'No, I did not say it.' + +Mr. Bright: The hon. and learned Gentleman in his resolution speaks of +other powers. But he has unceremoniously got rid of all the powers but +France, and he comes here to-night with a story of an interview with a +man whom he describes as the great ruler of France--tells us of a +conversation with him--asks us to accept the lead of the Emperor of the +French on, I will undertake to say, one of the greatest questions that +ever was submitted to the British Parliament. But it is not long since +the hon. and learned Gentleman held very different language. I recollect +in this House, only about two years ago, that the hon. and learned +Gentleman said: 'I hope I may be permitted to express in respectful +terms my opinion, even though it should affect so great a potentate as +the Emperor of the French. I have no faith in the Emperor of the +French.' On another occasion the hon. and learned Gentleman said,--not, +I believe, in this House,--'I am still of opinion that we have nothing +but animosity and bad faith to look for from the French Emperor.' And he +went on to say that still, though he had been laughed at, he adopted the +patriotic character of 'Tear-'em,' and was still at his post. + +And when the hon. and learned Gentleman came back, I think from his +expedition to Cherbourg, does the House recollect the language he used +on that occasion--language which, if it expressed the sentiments which +he felt, at least I think he might have been content to have withheld? +If I am not mistaken, referring to the salutation between the Emperor of +the French and the Queen of these kingdoms, he said, 'When I saw his +perjured lips touch that hallowed cheek.' And now, Sir, the hon. and +learned Gentleman has been to Paris, introduced there by the hon. Member +for Sunderland, and he has sought to become as it were in the palace of +the French Emperor a co-conspirator with him to drag this country into a +policy which I maintain is as hostile to its interests as it would be +degrading to its honour. + +But then the high contracting parties, I suspect, are not agreed, +because I will say this in justice to the French Emperor, that there has +never come from him in public, nor from any one of his Ministers, nor is +there anything to be found in what they have written, that is tinctured +in the smallest degree with that bitter hostility which the hon. and +learned Gentleman has constantly exhibited to the United States of +America and their people. France, if not wise in this matter, is at +least not unfriendly. The hon. and learned Member, in my opinion--indeed +I am sure--is not friendly, and I believe he is not wise. + +But now, on this subject, without speaking disrespectfully of the great +potentate who has taken the hon. and learned Gentleman into his +confidence, I must say that the Emperor runs the risk of being far too +much represented in this House. We have now two--I will not call them +envoys extraordinary, but most extraordinary. And, if report speaks +true, even they are not all. The hon. Member for King's County (Mr. +Hennessy)--I do not see him in his place--came back the other day from +Paris, and there were whispers that he had seen the great ruler of +France, and that he could tell everybody in the most confidential manner +that the Emperor was ready to make a spring at Russia for the sake of +delivering Poland, and that he only waited for a word from the Prime +Minister of England. + +I do not understand the policy of the Emperor if these new Ministers of +his tell the truth. For, Sir, if one Gentleman says that he is about to +make war with Russia, and another that he is about to make war with +America, I am disposed to look at what he is already doing. I find that +he is holding Rome against the opinion of all Italy. He is conquering +Mexico by painful steps, every footstep marked by devastation and blood. +He is warring, in some desultory manner, in China, and for aught I know +he may be about to do it in Japan. I say that, if he is to engage, at +the same time, in dismembering the greatest Eastern Empire and the great +Western Republic, he has a greater ambition than Louis XIV, a greater +daring than the first of his name; and that, if he endeavours to grasp +these great transactions, his dynasty may fall and be buried in the +ruins of his own ambition. + +I can say only one sentence upon the question to which the noble Lord +has directed so much attention. I understand that we have not heard all +the story from Paris, and further, that it is not at all remarkable, +seeing that the secret has been confided to two persons, that we have +not heard it correctly. I saw my hon. Friend, the Member for Sunderland, +near me, and his face underwent remarkable contortions during the speech +of the hon. and learned Gentleman, and I felt perfectly satisfied that +he did not agree with what his colleague was saying. I am told there is +in existence a little memorandum which contains an account of what was +said and done at that interview in Paris; and before the discussion +closes we shall no doubt have that memorandum produced, and from it know +how far these two gentlemen are agreed. + +I now come to the proposition which the hon. and learned Gentleman has +submitted to the House, and which he has already submitted to a meeting +of his constituents at Sheffield. At that meeting, on the 27th of May, +the hon. and learned Gentleman used these words: 'What I have to +consider is, what are the interests of England: what is for her +interests I believe to be for the interests of the world.' Now, leaving +out of consideration the latter part of that statement, if the hon. and +learned Gentleman will keep to the first part of it, then what we have +now to consider in this question is, what is for the interest of +England. But the hon. and learned Gentleman has put it to-night in +almost as offensive a way as he did before at Sheffield, and has said +that the United States would not bully the world if they were divided +and subdivided; for he went so far as to contemplate division into more +than two independent sections. I say that the whole of his ease rests +upon a miserable jealousy of the United States, or on what I may term a +base fear. It is a fear which appears to me just as groundless as any of +those panics by which the hon. and learned Gentleman has attempted to +frighten the country. + +There never was a State in the world which was less capable of +aggression with regard to Europe than the United States of America. I +speak of its government, of its confederation, of the peculiarities of +its organization; for the House will agree with me, that nothing is more +peculiar than the fact of the great power which the separate States, +both of the North and South, exercise upon the policy and course of the +country. I will undertake to say, that, unless in a question of +overwhelming magnitude, which would be able to unite any people, it +would be utterly hopeless to expect that all the States of the American +Union would join together to support the central Government in any plan +of aggression on England or any other country of Europe. + +Besides, nothing can be more certain than this, that the Government +which is now in power, and the party which have elected Mr. Lincoln to +office, is a moral and peaceable party, which has been above all things +anxious to cultivate the best possible state of feeling with regard to +England. The hon. and learned Gentleman, of all men, ought not to +entertain this fear of United States aggression, for he is always +boasting of his readiness to come into the field himself. I grant that +it would be a great necessity indeed which would justify a conscription +in calling out the hon. and learned Gentleman, but I say he ought to +consider well before he spreads these alarms among the people. For the +sake of this miserable jealousy, and that he may help to break up a +friendly nation, he would depart from the usages of nations, and create +an everlasting breach between the people of England and the people of +the United States of America. He would do more; and, notwithstanding +what he has said tonight, I may put this as my strongest argument +against his case--he would throw the weight of England into the scale in +favour of the cause of slavery. + +I want to show the hon. and learned Gentleman that England is not +interested in the course he proposes we should take; and when I speak of +interests, I mean the commercial interests, the political interests, and +the moral interests of the country. And first, with regard to the supply +of cotton, in which the noble Lord the Member for Stamford takes such a +prodigious interest. I must explain to the noble Lord that I know a +little about cotton. I happen to have been engaged in that business,-- +not all my life, for the noble Lord has seen me here for twenty years,-- +but my interests have been in it; and at this moment the firm of which I +am a member have no less than six mills, which have been at a stand for +nearly a year, owing to the impossibility of working under the present +conditions of the supply of cotton. I live among a people who live by +this trade; and there is no man in England who has a more direct +interest in it than I have. Before the war, the supply of cotton was +little and costly, and every year it was becoming more costly, for the +supply did not keep pace with the demand. + +The point that I am about to argue is this: I believe that the war which +is now raging in America is more likely to abolish slavery than not, and +more likely to abolish it than any other thing that can be proposed in +the world. I regret very much that the pride and passion of men are such +as to justify me in making this statement. The supply of cotton under +slavery must always be insecure. The House felt so in past years; for at +my recommendation they appointed a committee, and but for the folly of a +foolish Minister they would have appointed a special commission to India +at my request. Is there any gentleman in this House who will not agree +with me in this,--that it would be far better for our great Lancashire +industry that our supply of cotton should be grown by free labour than +by slave labour? + +Before the war, the whole number of negroes engaged in the production of +cotton was about one million,--that is, about a fourth of the whole of +the negroes in the Slave States. The annual increase in the number of +negroes growing cotton was about twenty-five thousand,--only two and a- +half per cent. It was impossible for the Southern States to keep up +their growth of sugar, rice, tobacco, and their ordinary slave +productions, and at the same time to increase the growth of cotton more +than at a rate corresponding with the annual increase of negroes. +Therefore you will find that the quantity of cotton grown, taking ten +years together, increased only at the rate of about one hundred thousand +bales a-year. But that was nothing like the quantity which we required. +That supply could not be increased, because the South did not cultivate +more than probably one and a-half per cent of the land which was capable +of cultivation for cotton. + +The great bulk of the land in the Southern States is uncultivated. Ten +thousand square miles are appropriated to the cultivation of cotton; but +there are six hundred thousand square miles, or sixty times as much +land, which is capable of being cultivated for cotton. It was, however, +impossible that the land should be so cultivated, because, although you +had climate and sun, you had no labour. The institution of slavery +forbade free-labour men in the North to come to the South; and every +emigrant that landed in New York from Europe knew that the Slave States +were no States for him, and therefore he went North or West. The laws of +the United States, the sentiments of Europe and of the world, being +against any opening of the slave-trade, the planters of the South were +shut up, and the annual increase in the supply of cotton could increase +only in the same proportion as the annual increase in the number of +their negroes. + +There is only one other point with regard to that matter which is worth +mentioning. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Sheffield will +understand it, although on some points he seems to be peculiarly dark. +If a planter in the Southern States wanted to grow one thousand bales of +cotton a-year, he would require about two hundred negroes. Taking them +at five hundred dollars, or one hundred pounds each, which is not more +than half the price of a first-class hand, the cost of the two hundred +would be twenty thousand pounds. To grow one thousand bales of cotton a- +year you require not only to possess an estate, machinery, tools, and +other things necessary to carry on the cotton-growing business, but you +must find a capital of twenty thousand pounds to buy the actual +labourers by whom the plantation is to be worked; and therefore, as +every gentleman will see at once, this great trade, to a large extent, +was shut up in the hands of men who were required to be richer than +would be necessary if slavery did not exist. + +Thus the plantation business to a large extent became a monopoly, and +therefore even on that account the production of cotton was constantly +limited and controlled. I was speaking to a gentleman the other day from +Mississippi. I believe no man in America or in England is more +acquainted with the facts of this case. He has been for many years a +Senator from the State of Mississippi. He told me that every one of +these facts were true, and said, 'I have no doubt whatever that in ten +years after freedom in the South, or after freedom in conjunction with +the North, the production of cotton will be doubled, and cotton will be +forwarded to the consumers of the world at a much less price than we +have had it for many years past.' + +I shall turn for a moment to the political interest, to which the hon. +and learned Gentleman paid much more attention than to the commercial. +The more I consider the course of this war, the more I come to the +conclusion that it is improbable in future that the United States will +be broken into separate republics. I do not come to the conclusion that +the North will conquer the South. But I think the conclusion to which I +am more disposed to come now than at any time since the breaking out of +the war is this,--that, if a separation should occur for a time, still +the interest, the sympathies, the sentiments, the necessities of the +whole continent, and its ambition also, which, as hon. Gentlemen have +mentioned, seems to some people to be a necessity, render it highly +probable that the continent would still be united under one central +Government. I may be quite mistaken. I do not express that opinion with +any more confidence than hon. Gentlemen have expressed theirs in favour +of a permanent dissolution; but now is not this possible,--that the +Union may be again formed on the basis of the South? There are persons +who think that possible. I hope it is not, but we cannot say that it is +absolutely impossible. + +Is it not possible that the Northern Government may be baffled in their +military operations? Is it not possible that, by their own incapacity, +they may be humiliated before their own people? And is it not even +possible that the party which you please to call the Peace party in the +North, but which is in no sense a peace party, should unite with the +South, and that the Union should be reconstituted on the basis of +Southern opinions and of the Southern social system? Is it not possible, +for example, that the Southern people, and those in their favour, should +appeal to the Irish population of America against the negroes, between +whom there has been little sympathy and little respect; and is it not +possible they should appeal to the commercial classes of the North--and +the rich commercial classes in all countries, who, from the uncertainty +of their possessions and the fluctuation of their interests, are +rendered always timid and very often corrupt--is it not possible, I say, +that they might prefer the union of their whole country upon the basis +of the South, rather than that union which many Members of this House +look upon with so much apprehension? + +If that should ever take place--but I believe, with my hon. Friend below +me (Mr. Forster), in the moral government of the world, and therefore I +cannot believe that it will take place; but if it were to take place, +with their great armies, and with their great navy, and their almost +unlimited power, they might seek to drive England out of Canada, France +out of Mexico, and whatever nations are interested in them out of the +islands of the West Indies; and you might then have a great State built +upon slavery and war, instead of that free State to which I look, built +up upon an educated people, upon general freedom, and upon morality in +government. + +Now there is one more point to which the hon. and learned Gentleman will +forgive me if I allude--he does not appear to me to think it of great +importance--and that is, the morality of this question. The right hon. +Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the hon. Gentleman who +spoke from the bench behind--and I think the noble Lord, if I am not +mistaken--referred to the carnage which is occasioned by this lamentable +strife. Well, carnage, I presume, is the accompaniment of all war. Two +years ago the press of London ridiculed very much the battles of the +United States, in which nobody was killed and few were hurt. There was a +time when I stood up in this House, and pointed out the dreadful horrors +of war. There was a war waged by this country in the Crimea; and the +Chancellor of the Exchequer, with an uneasy conscience, is constantly +striving to defend that struggle. That war--for it lasted about the same +time that the American war has lasted--at least destroyed as many lives +as are estimated to have been destroyed in the United States. + +My hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, who, I think, is not in the +House, made a speech in Scotland some time last year, in which he gave +the numbers which were lost by Russia in that war. An hon. Friend near +me observes, that some people do not reckon the Russians for anything. I +say, if you will add the Russians to the English, and the two to the +French, and the three to the Sardinians, and the four to the Turks, that +more lives were lost in the invasion of the Crimea, in the two years +that it lasted, than have been lost hitherto in the American war. That +is no defence of the carnage of the American war; but let hon. Gentlemen +bear in mind that, when I protested against the carnage in the Crimea-- +for an object which few could comprehend and nobody can fairly explain-- +I was told that I was actuated by a morbid sentimentality. Well, if I am +converted, if I view the mortality in war with less horror than I did +then, it must be attributed to the arguments of hon. Gentlemen opposite +and on the Treasury bench; but the fact is, I view this carnage just as +I viewed that, with only this difference, that while our soldiers +perished three thousand miles from home in a worthless and indefensible +cause, these men were on their own soil, and every man of them knew for +what he enlisted and for what purpose he was to fight. + +Now, I will ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the +Exchequer, and those who are of opinion with him on this question of +slaughter in the American war--a slaughter which I hope there is no hon. +Member here, and no person out of this House, that does not in his calm +moments look upon with grief and horror--to consider what was the state +of things before the war. It was this: that every year in the Slave +States of America there were one hundred and fifty thousand children +born into the world--born with the badge and the doom of slavery--born +to the liability by law, and by custom, and by the devilish cupidity of +man--to the lash and to the chain and to the branding-iron, and to be +taken from their families and carried they know not where. + +I want to know whether you feel as I feel upon this question. When I can +get down to my home from this House, I find half a dozen little children +playing upon my hearth. How many Members are there who can say with me, +that the most innocent, the most pure, the most holy joy which in their +past years they have felt, or in their future years they have hoped for, +has not arisen from contact and association with our precious children? +Well, then, if that be so--if, when the hand of Death takes one of those +flowers from our dwelling, our heart is overwhelmed with sorrow and our +household is covered with gloom; what would it be if our children were +brought up to this infernal system--one hundred and fifty thousand of +them every year brought into the world in these Slave States, amongst +these 'gentlemen,' amongst this 'chivalry,' amongst these men that we +can make our friends? + +Do you forget the thousand-fold griefs and the countless agonies which +belonged to the silent conflict of slavery before the war began? It is +all very well for the hon. and learned Gentleman to tell me, to tell +this House--he will not tell the country with any satisfaction to it-- +that slavery, after all, is not so bad a thing. The brother of my hon. +Friend the Member for South Durham told me that in North Carolina he +himself saw a woman whose every child, ten in number, had been sold when +they grew up to the age at which they would fetch a price to their +master. + +I have not heard a word to-night of another matter--the Proclamation of +the President of the United States. The hon. and learned Gentleman spoke +somewhere in the country, and he had not the magnanimity to abstain from +a statement which I was going to say he must have known had no real +foundation. I can make all allowance for the passion--and I was going to +say the malice--but I will say the ill-will of the hon. and learned +Gentleman; but I make no allowance for his ignorance. I make no +allowance for that, because if he is ignorant it is his own fault, for +God has given him an intellect which ought to keep him from ignorance on +a question of this magnitude. I now take that Proclamation. What do you +propose to do? You propose by your resolution to help the South, if +possible, to gain and sustain its independence. Nobody doubts that. The +hon. and learned Gentleman will not deny it. But what becomes of the +Proclamation? I should like to ask any lawyer in what light we stand as +regards that Proclamation? To us there is only one country in what was +called the United States; there is only one President, there is only one +general Legislature, there is only one law; and if that Proclamation be +lawful anywhere, we are not in a condition to deny its legality, because +at present we know no President Davis, nor do we know the men who are +about him. We have our Consuls in the South, but recognizing only one +Legislature, one President, one law. So far as we are concerned, that +Proclamation is a legal and effective document. + +I want to know, to ask you, the House of Commons, whether you have +turned back to your own proceedings in 1834, and traced the praises +which have been lavished upon you for thirty years by the great and good +men of other countries,--and whether, after what you did at that time, +you believe that you will meet the views of the thoughtful, moral, and +religious people of England, when you propose to remit to slavery three +millions of negroes in the Southern States, who in our views, and +regarding the Proclamation of the only President of the United States as +a legal document, are certainly and to all intents and purposes free? +['Oh!'] The hon. and learned Gentleman may say 'Oh!' and shake his head +lightly, and be scornful at this. He has managed to get rid of all those +feelings under which all men, black and white, like to be free. He has +talked of the cant and hypocrisy of these men. Was Wilberforce, was +Clarkson, was Buxton,--I might run over the whole list,--were these men +hypocrites, and had they nothing about them but cant? + +I could state something about the family of my hon. Friend below me (Mr. +Forster), which I almost fear to state in his presence; but his revered +father--a man unsurpassed in character, not equalled by many in +intellect, and approached by few in service--laid down his life in a +Slave State in America, while carrying to the governors and legislatures +of every Slave State the protest of himself and his sect against the +enormity of that odious system. + +In conclusion, Sir, I have only this to say,--that I wish to take a +generous view of this question,--a view, I say, generous with regard to +the people with whom we are in amity, whose Minister we receive here, +and who receive our Minister in Washington. We see that the Government +of the United States has for two years past been contending for its +life, and we know that it is contending necessarily for human freedom. +That Government affords the remarkable example--offered for the first +time in the history of the world--of a great Government coming forward +as the organized defender of law, freedom, and equality. + +Surely hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot be so ill-informed as to say that +the revolt of the Southern States is in favour of freedom and equality. +In Europe often, and in some parts of America, when there has been +insurrection, it has generally been of the suffering against the +oppressor, and rarely has it been found, and not more commonly in our +history than in the history of any other country, that the Government +has stepped forward as the organized defender of freedom--of the wide +and general freedom of those under its rule. With such a Government, in +such a contest, with such a foe, the hon. and learned Gentleman the +Member for Sheffield, who professes to be more an Englishman than most +Englishmen, asks us to throw into the scale against it the weight of the +hostility of England. + +I have not said a word with regard to what may happen to England if we +go into war with the United States. It will be a war upon the ocean,-- +every ship that belongs to the two nations will, as far as possible, be +swept from the seas. But when the troubles in America are over,--be they +ended by the restoration of the Union, or by separation,--that great and +free people, the most instructed in the world,--there is not an American +to be found in the New England States who cannot read and write, and +there are not three men in one hundred in the whole Northern States who +cannot read and write,--and those who cannot read and write are those +who have recently come from Europe,--I say the most instructed people in +the world, and the most wealthy,--if you take the distribution of wealth +among the whole people,--will have a wound in their hearts by your act +which a century may not heal; and the posterity of some of those who now +hear my voice may look back with amazement, and I will say with +lamentation, at the course which was taken by the hon. and learned +Gentleman, and by such hon. Members as may choose to follow his leading. +['No! No!'] I suppose the hon. Gentlemen who cry 'No!' will admit that +we sometimes suffer from the errors of our ancestors. There are few +persons who will not admit that, if their fathers had been wiser, their +children would have been happier. + +We know the cause of this revolt, its purposes, and its aims. Those who +made it have not left us in darkness respecting their intentions, but +what they are to accomplish is still hidden from our sight; and I will +abstain now, as I have always abstained with regard to it, from +predicting what is to come. I know what I hope for,--and what I shall +rejoice in,--but I know nothing of future facts that will enable me to +express a confident opinion. Whether it will give freedom to the race +which white men have trampled in the dust, and whether the issue will +purify a nation steeped in crimes committed against that race, is known +only to the Supreme. In His hands are alike the breath of man and the +life of States. I am willing to commit to Him the issue of this dreaded +contest; but I implore of Him, and I beseech this House, that my country +may lift nor hand nor voice in aid of the most stupendous act of guilt +that history has recorded in the annals of mankind. + + * * * * * + +AMERICA. + +VII. + +LONDON, JUNE 29, 1867. + +[The following speech was made at a public breakfast given to William +Lloyd Garrison, in St. James's Hall, at which Mr. Bright occupied the +Chair.] + +The position in which I am placed this morning is one very unusual for +me, and one that I find somewhat difficult; but I consider it a signal +distinction to be permitted to take a prominent part in the proceedings +of this day, which are intended to commemorate one of the greatest of +the great triumphs of freedom, and to do honour to a most eminent +instrument in the achievement of that freedom. There may be, perhaps, +those who ask what is this triumph of which I speak. To put it briefly, +and, indeed, only to put one part of it, I may say that it is a triumph +which has had the effect of raising 4,000,000 of human beings from the +very lowest depth of social and political degradation to that lofty +height which men have attained when they possess equality of rights in +the first country on the globe. More than this, it is a triumph which +has pronounced the irreversible doom of slavery in all countries and for +all time. Another question suggests itself--how has this great triumph +been accomplished? The answer suggests itself in another question--How +is it that any great thing is accomplished? By love of justice, by +constant devotion to a great cause, and by an unfaltering faith that +what is right will in the end succeed. + +When I look at this hall, filled with such an assembly--when I partake +of the sympathy which runs from heart to heart at this moment in welcome +to our guest of to-day--I cannot but contrast his present position with +that which, not so far back but that many of us can remember, he +occupied in his own country. It is not forty years ago, I believe about +the year 1829, when the guest whom we honour this morning was spending +his solitary days in a prison in the slave-owning city of Baltimore. I +will not say that he was languishing in prison, for that I do not +believe; he was sustained by a hope that did not yield to the +persecution of those who thus maltreated him; and to show that the +effect of that imprisonment was of no avail to suppress or extinguish +his ardour, within two years after that he had the courage, the +audacity--I dare say many of his countrymen used even a stronger phrase +than that--he had the courage to commence the publication, in the city +of Boston, of a newspaper devoted mainly to the question of the +abolition of slavery. The first number of that paper, issued on the 1st +of January, 1831, contained an address to the public, one passage of +which I have often read with the greatest interest, and it is a key to +the future life of Mr. Garrison. He had been complained of for having +used hard language--which is a very common complaint indeed--and he said +in his first number:-- + + 'I am aware that many object to the severity of my language, but + is there not cause for such severity? I will be as harsh as + truth, and as uncompromising as justice. I am in earnest, I will + not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retract a single + inch, and I will be heard.' + +And that, after all, expresses to a great extent the future course of +his life. But what was at that time the temper of the people amongst +whom he lived--of the people who are glorying now, as they well may +glory, in the abolition of slavery throughout their country? At that +time it was very little better in the North than it was in the South. I +think it was in the year 1835 that riots of the most serious character +took place in some of the Northern cities: during that time Mr. +Garrison's life was in imminent peril; and he has never ascertained to +this day how it was that he was left alive on the earth to carry out his +great work. Turning to the South, a State that has lately suffered from +the ravages of armies, the State of Georgia, by its legislature of +House, Senate, and Governor, if my memory does not deceive me, passed a +bill, offering 10,000 dollars reward--[Mr. Garrison here said '5,000']-- +well, they seemed to think there were people who would do it cheap-- +offering 5,000 dollars, and zeal, doubtless, would make up the +difference, for the capture of Mr. Garrison, or for adequate proof of +his death. Now, these were menaces and perils such as we have not in our +time been accustomed to in this country in any of our political +movements, and we shall take a very poor measure indeed of the conduct +of the leaders of the Emancipation party in the United States if we +estimate them by that of any of those who have been concerned in +political movements amongst us. But, notwithstanding all drawbacks, the +cause was gathering strength, and Mr. Garrison found himself by-and-by +surrounded by a small but increasing band of men and women who were +devoted to this cause, as he himself was. We have in this country a very +noble woman, who taught the English people much upon this question about +thirty years ago: I allude to Harriet Martineau. I recollect well the +impression with which I read a most powerful and touching paper which +she had written, and which was published in the number of the +_Westminster Review_ for December, 1838. It was entitled 'The +Martyr Age of the United States.' The paper introduced to the English +public the great names which were appearing on the scene in connection +with this cause in America. There was, of course I need hardly say, our +eminent guest of to-day; there was Arthur Tappan, and Lewis Tappan, and +James G. Birney of Alabama, a planter and slave-owner, who liberated his +slaves and came North, and became, I believe, the first Presidential +candidate upon Abolition principles in the United States. There were +besides them, Dr. Channing, John Quincy Adams, a statesman and President +of the United States, and father of the eminent man who is now Minister +from that people amongst us. Then there was Wendell Phillips, admitted +to be by all who know him perhaps the most powerful orator who speaks +the English language. I might refer to others, to Charles Sumner, the +scholar and statesman, and Horace Greeley, the first of journalists in +the United States, if not the first of journalists in the world. But, +besides these, there were of noble women not a few. There was Lydia +Maria Child; there were the two sisters, Sarah and Angelina Grimke, +ladies who came from South Carolina, who liberated their slaves, and +devoted all they had to the service of this just cause; and Maria Weston +Chapman, of whom Miss Martineau speaks in terms which, though I do not +exactly recollect them, yet I know describe her as noble-minded, +beautiful, and good. It may be that there are some of her family who are +now within the sound of my voice. If it be so, all I have to say is, +that I hope they will feel, in addition to all they have felt heretofore +as to the character of their mother, that we who are here can appreciate +her services, and the services of all who were united with her as co- +operators in this great and worthy cause. But there was another whose +name must not be forgotten, a man whose name must live for ever in +history, Elijah P. Lovejoy, who in the free State of Illinois laid down +his life for the cause. When I read that article by Harriet Martineau, +and the description of those men and women there given, I was led, I +know not how, to think of a very striking passage which I am sure must +be familiar to most here, because it is to be found in the Epistle to +the Hebrews. After the writer of that Epistle has described the great +men and fathers of the nation, he says:--'Time would fail me to tell of +Gideon, of Barak, of Samson, of Jephtha, of David, of Samuel, and the +Prophets, who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, +obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of +fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, +waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.' I +ask if this grand passage of the inspired writer may not be applied to +that heroic band who have made America the perpetual home of freedom? + +Thus, in spite of all that persecutions could do, opinion grew in the +North in favour of freedom; but in the South, alas! in favour of that +most devilish delusion that slavery was a Divine institution. The moment +that idea took possession of the South, war was inevitable. Neither +fact, nor argument, nor counsel, nor philosophy, nor religion, could by +any possibility affect the discussion of the question when once the +Church leaders of the South had taught their people that slavery was a +Divine institution; for then they took their stand on other and +different, and what they in their blindness thought higher grounds, and +they said, 'Evil! be thou my good;' and so they exchanged light for +darkness, and freedom for bondage, and good for evil, and, if you like, +heaven for hell. Of course, unless there was some stupendous miracle, +greater than any that is on record even in the inspired writings, it was +impossible that war should not spring out of that state of things; and +the political slaveholders, that 'dreadful brotherhood, in whom all +turbulent passions were let loose,' the moment they found that the +presidential election of 1860 was adverse to the cause of slavery, took +up arms to sustain their cherished and endangered system. Then came the +outbreak which had been so often foretold, so often menaced; and the +ground reeled under the nation during four years of agony, until at +last, after the smoke of the battle-field had cleared away, the horrid +shape which had cast its shadow over a whole continent had vanished, and +was gone for ever. An ancient and renowned poet has said-- + + 'Unholy is the voice + Of loud thanksgiving over slaughtered men.' + +It becomes us not to rejoice, but to be humbled, that a chastisement so +terrible should have fallen upon any of our race; but we may be thankful +for this--that this chastisement was at least not sent in vain. The +great triumph in the field was not all; there came after it another +great triumph--a triumph over passion, and there came up before the +world the spectacle, not of armies and military commanders, but of the +magnanimity and mercy of a powerful and victorious nation. The +vanquished were treated as the vanquished, in the history of the world, +have never before been treated. There was a universal feeling in the +North that every care should be taken of those who had so recently and +marvellously been enfranchised. Immediately we found that the privileges +of independent labour were open to them, schools were established in +which their sons might obtain an education that would raise them to an +intellectual position never reached by their fathers; and at length full +political rights were conferred upon those who a few short years, or +rather months before, had been called chattels, and things, to be bought +and sold in any market. And we may feel assured, that those persons in +the Northern States who befriended the negro in his bondage will not now +fail to assist his struggles for a higher position. May we not say, +reviewing what has taken place--and I have only glanced in the briefest +possible way at the chief aspects of this great question--that probably +history has no sadder, and yet, if we take a different view, I may say +also probably no brighter page? To Mr. Garrison more than to any other +man this is due; his is the creation of that opinion which has made +slavery hateful, and which has made freedom possible in America. His +name is venerated in his own country--venerated where not long ago it +was a name of obloquy and reproach. His name is venerated in this +country and in Europe wheresoever Christianity softens the hearts and +lessens the sorrows of men; and I venture to say that in time to come, +near or remote I know not, his name will become the herald and the +synonym of good to millions of men who will dwell on the now almost +unknown continent of Africa. + +But we must not allow our own land to be forgotten or depreciated, even +whilst we are saying what our feelings bid us say of our friend beside +me and of our other friends across the water. We, too, can share in the +triumph I have described, and in the honours which the world is willing +to shower upon our guest, and upon those who, like him, are unwearied in +doing good. We have had slaves in the colonial territories that owned +the sway of this country. Our position was different from that in which +the Americans stood towards theirs; the negroes were far from being so +numerous, and they were not in our midst, but 4,000 miles away. We had +no prejudices of colour to overcome, we had a Parliament that was +omnipotent in those colonies, and public opinion acting upon that +Parliament was too powerful for the Englishmen who were interested in +the continuance of slavery. We liberated our slaves; for the English +soil did not reject the bondsman, but the moment he touched it made him +free. We have now in our memory Clarkson, and Wilberforce, and Buxton, +and Sturge; and even now we have within this hall the most eloquent +living English champion of the freedom of the slave in my friend, and +our friend, George Thompson. Well, then, I may presume to say that we +are sharers in that good work which has raised our guest to eminence; +and we may divide it with the country from which he comes. Our country +is still his; for did not his fathers bear allegiance to our ancient +monarchy, and were they not at one time citizens of this commonwealth? +and may we not add that the freedom which now overspreads his noble +nation first sprang into life amongst our own ancestors? To Mr. +Garrison, as is stated in one of the letters which has just been read, +to William Lloyd Garrison it has been given, in a manner not often +permitted to those who do great things of this kind, to see the ripe +fruit of his vast labours. Over a territory large enough to make many +realms, he has seen hopeless toil supplanted by compensated industry; +and where the bondman dragged his chain, there freedom is established +for ever. We now welcome him amongst us as a friend whom some of us have +known long; for I have watched his career with no common interest, even +when I was too young to take much part in public affairs; and I have +kept within my heart his name, and the names of those who have been +associated with him in every step which he has taken; and in public +debates in the halls of peace, and even on the blood-soiled fields of +war, my heart has always been with those who were the friends of +freedom. We welcome him, then, with a cordiality which knows no stint +and no limit for him and for his noble associates, both men and women; +and we venture to speak a verdict which, I believe, will be sanctioned +by all mankind, not only by those who live now, but by those who shall +come after, to whom their perseverance and their success shall be a +lesson and a help in the future struggles which remain for men to make. +One of our oldest and greatest poets has furnished me with a line that +well expresses that verdict. Are not William Lloyd Garrison and his +fellow-labourers in that world's work--are they not + + 'On Fame's eternal bead-roll worthy to be filed?' + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +I. + +MAYNOOTH GRANT. +HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 16, 1845. +[On April 3rd Sir Robert Peel proposed a Resolution for the improvement +of Maynooth College, the grant to consist of 26,000_l_. per annum. +It was suggested by some speakers, that the act would justify the +endowment of the Roman Catholic priesthood, and Lord John Russell +asserted that such a plan would be a larger, more liberal, and more +statesmanlike measure. Others objected to the grant on theological +grounds, others for the reason that it was a step towards endowing +another Church Establishment in Ireland. The Resolution was carried by +216 to 114. The debate on the Bill was resumed on April 10th, and was +continued on April 14th and 16th. The second reading was carried on the +last day by 323 votes to 176; on May 2nd the Bill passed through +Committee. It was opposed again on bringing up the Report, on May 5th, +and was finally passed on May 21st, by 317 to 184. The Bill, after +opposition, passed in the Lords on June 10th.] + +I am anxious to make a few observations on the principle on which I +shall give my vote; because I shall be obliged to pass into the lobby +along with a number of Members of the House from whose principles I +entirely dissent; and after the speech of the noble Lord the Member for +Bandon, I think that any one who votes with him has need to explain why +he votes on his side, for anything more unlike the principles of the +present day, more intolerant, or more insane with respect to the policy +to be pursued towards Ireland, I have never heard; and I could not have +believed that any man coming from that country could have used such +language in addressing this House. I do not think that this question is +to be looked at in a favourable or unfavourable light because of the +party from which it comes. Some hon. Members have charged the right hon. +Baronet with inconsistency, and have in some degree thrown the blame of +his conduct on the measure which he has introduced. The right hon. +Baronet has, from unfortunate circumstances, been connected in +Opposition with a party of such a nature, that he could never promote +any good measure whilst in power without being charged, and justly, with +inconsistent conduct. But I will look at the measure as a measure by +itself, and if it be a good measure I will vote for it as willingly, +coming from the present Government, as if it came from the Government +which preceded it. But I object to this measure on the ground that it is +proposed to vote some of the public taxes for the purpose of maintaining +an institution purely ecclesiastical, and for the rearing and educating +of the priests of a particular sect. I am the more strongly against the +Bill, because, from all that has been said on both sides of the House, +and from all that I can learn from the public papers, and even from the +organs of the Government, I am convinced that there is no argument which +has been used in defence of this measure, which would not be just as +valid for the defence of further measures, not for the payment of +Catholic priests of the College of Maynooth only, but for the payment of +all the priests in Ireland or in England. I admit that the principles +and the arguments which have justified the original vote are good to +some extent to justify this vote. The right hon. Baronet in his opening +speech has stated that the principle was conceded, that it is but a +matter of a few thousand pounds. But if the principle were conceded now, +ten or twenty years hence some Prime Minister might stand up and state +that in 1795 the principle was conceded, and in 1845 that concession--or +rather, that principle--was again sanctioned; and then, arguing from the +two cases, it would be easy to demonstrate that it was no violation of +principle whatever to establish a new Church in Ireland, and add thereby +to the monstrous evils which exist there now from the establishment of +one in connection with the State. The right hon. Baronet has paid no +great compliment to the Irish Catholics in the possession of means and +property, when he has said that the 9,000_l_. now voted is just +sufficient to damp the generosity of the people of that country. If +9,000_l_. were enough in some degree to check their generosity, I +should think that a sum of 26,000_l_. is sufficient to destroy it +altogether. When I consider that the Catholic gentry of Ireland pay no +Income Tax and no Property Tax, and no Assessed Taxes, I do not think it +would be a thing altogether impossible, or to be unlocked for, that they +should have supported an establishment for the rearing of priests to +teach that religion to which they profess to be so much devoted. + +But the object of this measure was just as objectionable to me when I +learned that it was intended by this vote to soothe the discontent which +exists in Ireland. I will look at the causes whence this discontent +arises. Does it arise because the priests of Maynooth are now +insufficiently clad or fed? I have always thought that it arose from the +fact that one-third of the people are paupers--that almost all of them +are not in regular employment at the very lowest rate of wages--and that +the state of things amongst the bulk of the population is most +disastrous, and to be deplored; but I cannot for the life of me conceive +how the grant of additional money to Maynooth is to give additional +employment, or food, or clothing to the people of Ireland, or make them +more satisfied with their condition. I can easily see how, by the +granting of this sum, the Legislature may hear far less in future times +of the sufferings and wrongs of the people of Ireland than they have +heard heretofore; for they may discover that one large means of +influence, possessed by those who had agitated for the redress of Irish +wrongs, is to be found in the support which the Irish Catholic clergy +has given to the various associations for carrying on political +agitation; and the object of this Bill is to tame down those agitators-- +it is a sop given to the priests. It is hush-money given, that they may +not proclaim to the whole country, to Europe, and to the world, the +sufferings of the population to whom they administer the rites and the +consolations of religion. I assert that the Protestant Church of Ireland +is at the root of the evils of that country. The Irish Catholics would +thank you infinitely more if you were to wipe out that foul blot, than +they would even if Parliament were to establish the Roman Catholic +Church alongside of it. They have had everything Protestant--a +Protestant clique which has been dominant in the country; a Protestant +Viceroy to distribute places and emoluments amongst that Protestant +clique; Protestant judges who have polluted the seats of justice; +Protestant magistrates, before whom the Catholic peasant could not hope +for justice. They have not only Protestant, but exterminating landlords, +and more than that, a Protestant soldiery, who, at the beck and command +of a Protestant priest, have butchered and killed a Catholic peasant, +even in the presence of his widowed mother. All these things are +notorious; I merely state them. I do not bring the proof of them: they +are patent to all the world, and that man must have been unobservant +indeed who is not perfectly convinced of their truth. The consequence of +all this is, the extreme discontent of the Irish people; and because +this House is not prepared yet to take those measures which would be +really doing justice to Ireland, and to wipe away that Protestant +Establishment which is the most disgraceful institution in Christendom; +the next thing is, that they should drive off the watch-dogs, if it be +possible, and take from Mr. O'Connell and the Repeal Association that +formidable organization which has been established throughout the whole +country, through the sympathies of the Catholic priests being bound up +with the interests of the people. Their object is to take away the +sympathy of the Catholic priests from the people, and to give them more +Latin and Greek. The object is to make the priests in Ireland as tame as +those of Suffolk and Dorsetshire. The object is, that when the horizon +is brightened every night with incendiary fires, no priest of the paid +Establishment shall ever tell of the wrongs of the people amongst whom +he is living; and when the population is starving, and pauperised by +thousands, as in the southern parts of England, the priests shall not +unite themselves with any association for the purpose of wresting from +an oppressive Government those rights to which the people have a claim. + +I am altogether against this system for any purpose, under any +circumstances, at any time whatever. Nothing can be more disastrous to +the best interests of the community, nor more dangerous to religion +itself. If the Government wants to make the priests of Ireland as +useless for all practical purposes as the paid priests of their own +Establishment, they should not give them 26,000_l_. merely, but as +much as they can persuade the House to agree to. Ireland is suffering, +not from the want of another Church, but rather because she already has +one Church too many; for with the present Church, having a small +community, overpaid ministers, a costly Establishment, and little work, +it is quite impossible to have peace and content in that country. If you +give the Catholic priests a portion of the public funds, as the +Government has given the _Regium Donum_ to the Presbyterians of the +North, they will unite with the Church as the Presbyterians did against +any attempt to overturn the old system of Church and State alliance in +that country. + +The experience of State Churches is not of a character to warrant the +House in going further in that direction. In this country there is a +State Church, and I do not deny that there are many excellent ministers +in it; but from time immemorial it has been characterized by a most +deplorable and disastrous spirit of persecution, which even at this hour +still exists; for that Church is now persecuting a poor shoemaker at +Cambridge for non-payment of Church rates, and pursuing him from court +to court. That Church has been upheld as a bulwark against Catholicism, +and yet all the errors of Catholicism find a home and a hearty welcome +there. In Lancashire and Yorkshire, and in other counties, that Church +is found to be too unwieldy a machine, and altogether unfitted to a +population growing in numbers and intelligence like that of those parts +of the kingdom. Even in Scotland, where there is a model of the most +perfect Establishment which perhaps could be raised, there are the +Secession Church, the Belief Church, and the Free Church; that which the +State upholds being called by the complimentary name of the Residuary +Church. After the experience of such State Churches, which have done so +little good and so much evil, is this a time for establishing another +Church? If I approved of Church endowments by the State I would vote for +this Bill with all my heart, because it is calculated to create a kinder +feeling towards this country amongst the people of Ireland. + +Two parties opposed to the Bill are represented by hon. Gentlemen on the +other side of the House. They state that the Roman Catholic religion +should not be established or helped by the State. But when their Church +is absorbing millions of the public money, while millions of their +countrymen refuse to enter its doors, how can they for a moment object +to the passing of a measure which will give some sort of show of +assistance to that Church to which millions of the Irish people belong? +The Nonconformist or Dissenting party in this country are opposed to the +measure; but by some of them a spirit is mixed up with their agitation +of this question which shows that they do not understand, or do not +value, the great principles of Nonconformity, for which their +forefathers struggled and suffered. I allude more especially to a +portion of the Wesleyan body, which, I believe, does not altogether +repudiate the principle of endowment. + +But, with regard to the rest, I am persuaded that their agitation +against this measure is honest. If the Dissenters look back to all that +their forefathers have suffered, aye, even within a late period, they +will be recreant to their own principles, and merit the contempt of the +House and of the world, if they do not come forward manfully to uphold +their own principles, and dissent from and oppose the measure under the +consideration of the House. For myself, I shall oppose the Bill in every +stage, simply on one ground, that I believe the principle of endowment +to be most unjust and injurious to the country, and whatever may be the +effect on any Government, whether that of the right hon. Baronet or any +that has preceded or will succeed him, no strength of attachment to +party or Government will induce me to tamper with what I hold to be the +greatest and dearest principle which any man or any body of men can +assert. When I look back to the history of this country, and consider +its present condition, I must say, that all that the people possess of +liberty has come, not through the portals of the cathedrals and the +parish churches, but from the conventicles, which are despised by hon. +Gentlemen opposite. When I know that if a good measure is to be carried +in this House, it must be by men who are sent hither by the +Nonconformists of Great Britain; when I read and see that the past and +present State alliance with religion is hostile to religious liberty, +preventing all growth and nearly destroying all vitality in religion +itself, then I shall hold myself to have read, thought, and lived in +vain, if I vote for a measure which in the smallest degree shall give +any further power or life to the principle of State endowment; and, in +conclusion, I will only exhort the Dissenters of England to act in the +same way, and to stand upon their own great, pure, and unassailable +principle; for, if they stand by it manfully, and work for it +vigorously, the time may come, nay, it will come, when that principle +will be adopted by the Legislature of the country. + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +II. + +CRIME AND OUTRAGE BILL. +HOUSE OF COMMONS, DECEMBER 13, 1847. + +[Towards the conclusion of this year (1847) numerous crimes and outrages +of a serious character were committed in Ireland. They were chiefly +agrarian. In order to increase the powers of the Irish Executive, +Parliament was invited in the Queen's Speech (Nov. 23) to take further +precautions against the perpetration of crime in certain counties in +Ireland. The Bill was moved by Sir George Grey on Nov. 29, and leave was +given, by 224 votes to 18, was read a second time (296 to 19) on Dec. 9, +and passed (174 to 14) on Dec. 13. It was passed in the House of Lords +on Dec. 19. On July 31, 1848, the Irish Government proclaimed certain +districts in which rebellion had broken out. Smith O'Brien and the other +leaders of the insurgents were speedily arrested, tried, and convicted.] + +I feel very much in the position of the hon. Member who has just +addressed the House, for I am in some degree compelled to speak before +this Bill is read a third time. I have presented a petition against the +Bill, signed by more than 20,000 persons, inhabitants of the borough of +Manchester, and I am unwilling to vote without briefly giving the +reasons which make it impossible for me to oppose this Bill. When I +recollect the circumstances attending the rejection of the Bill of 1846, +for the protection of life in Ireland, I am convinced that the +Government would not have brought forward the present measure if it had +not appeared to them absolutely necessary, and that, but for this +supposed necessity, it would never have been heard of. + +The case of the Government, so far as the necessity for this Bill is +concerned, seems to me to be as clear and as perfect as it can be. From +the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Home +Department, from the unanimous statements of all the newspapers, and +from the evidence of all parties connected with Ireland, it is placed +beyond a doubt that in the disturbed districts of Ireland the ordinary +law is utterly powerless. The reason why the law is carried into effect +in England is, because the feeling of the people is in favour of it, and +every man is willing to become and is in reality a peace officer, in +order to further the ends of justice. + +But in Ireland this state of things does not exist. The public sentiment +in certain districts is depraved and thoroughly vitiated. [Mr. J. +O'Connell, 'No! No!'] The hon. Member cries 'No, No;' but I maintain +that in the disturbed districts the public or popular feeling is as I +have described it. I do not mean to assert that all which the newspapers +contain is true, or that they contain all the truth; but I ask the hon. +Gentleman if he has not read accounts which are not contradicted, from +which we learn that on the occurrence of some recent cases of +assassination, whole districts have been in a state of rejoicing and +exultation? These assassinations are not looked upon as murders, but +rather as executions. Take the case of Mr. Lloyd, a clergyman, who was +recently assassinated. There was no show of vindictive feeling on the +part of his murderers; there was little of the character of ordinary +murders in it. The servant was allowed to depart unharmed; a boy who was +in the carriage was removed that he might not be injured; and the +unhappy gentleman was shot with all the deliberation and the calmness +with which a man would be made to suffer the extreme penalty of the law. +It is clear, then, that the ordinary law fails, and that the Government +have a case for the demand they make for an extension of the present +powers of the law. + +I do not say the present Bill will certainly be effective, but it is the +less to be opposed because it does not greatly exceed or infringe the +ordinary law; and it is the duty of the Legislature, when called upon to +strengthen the Executive, to do so by the smallest possible infringement +of the law and the constitution. But, to leave the particular measure +now before us, I am bound to say that the case of the Government with +respect to their Irish policy in general is not as good as could be +wished. The Government has not shown the courage which is necessary to +deal effectually with the difficulties of Ireland. They should remember +what passed when the Poor-law was proposed for that country. They were +told it would be a failure--that it could not be worked; but +disregarding these statements, they passed the Bill; and I believe, +since the Act of 1829, no measure has passed this House of equal benefit +to Ireland. The noble Lord at the head of the Government has said that +all parties are to be blamed for the misgovernment of Ireland; but he +should remember the responsibility which is upon him, for he is now in +the position of dictator on Irish questions, and whatever he proposes +for that country, I verily believe, will find no successful opposition +in this House. + +There is another fact to which I would call attention. The Irish Members +complain, and very justly, of the past legislation of this House; but +when we call to mind that there are 105 of them here, of whom 60 or 70 +are of Liberal politics or opinions, and that about 30 of them are +Repealers, and hold very strong views with regard to the mismanagement +of Irish affairs in the Imperial Parliament, I think we have a right to +complain that they have not laid on the table of the House any one +measure which they believe to be necessary to the prosperity of their +country. + +I have been in this House more than four years, and I have never yet +seen the Irish Members bringing forward any proposition of a practical +character--nor am I aware that they have supported any measure they +deemed necessary for Ireland, with unanimity and earnestness, or with +anything like perseverance and resolution. I am sure that 105, or even +30 English Members, sitting in a Parliament in Dublin, and believing +their country had suffered from the effects of bad legislation, would, +by their knowledge of the case, their business habits, activity, union, +and perseverance, have showed a powerful front, and by uniting together, +and working manfully in favour of any proposition they might think +necessary to remedy the evils of which they complained, they would have +forced it on the attention of the House. But the Irish Members have not +done this. So far then, they are and have been as much to blame as any +other Member of this House for the absence of good government in +Ireland. + +I will not, like them, complain of bad legislation, and propose no +remedy. What is the condition of Ireland? Last year we voted millions to +keep its population from starvation; and this year we have been asked +for a further sum, but have not granted it. We maintain a large army in +Ireland, and an armed police, which is an army in everything but in +name, and yet we have in that country a condition of things which is not +to be matched in any other civilised country on the face of the earth, +and which is alike disgraceful to Ireland and to us. The great cause of +Ireland's calamities is, that Ireland is idle. I believe it would be +found, on inquiry, that the population of Ireland, as compared with that +of England, do not work more than two days per week. Wherever a people +are not industrious and are not employed, there is the greatest danger +of crime and outrage. Ireland is idle, and therefore she starves; +Ireland starves, and therefore she rebels. We must choose between +industry and anarchy: we must have one or the other in Ireland. This +proposition I believe to be incontrovertible, and I defy the House to +give peace and prosperity to that country until they set in motion her +industry, create and diffuse capital, and thus establish those +gradations of rank and condition by which the whole social fabric can +alone be held together. + +But the idleness of the people of Ireland is not wholly their fault. It +is for the most part a forced idleness, for it is notorious that when +the Irish come to England, or remove to the United States or the +Colonies, they are about the hardest working people in the world. We +employ them down in Lancashire, and with the prospect of good pay they +work about as well, and are as trustworthy, and quiet, and well-disposed +to the law as the people of this country. The great secret of their +idleness at home is, that there is little or no trade in Ireland; there +are few flourishing towns to which the increasing population can resort +for employment, so that there is a vast mass of people living on the +land; and the land itself is not half so useful for their employment and +sustentation as it might be. A great proportion of her skill, her +strength, her sinews, and her labour, is useless to Ireland for the +support of her population. Every year they have a large emigration, +because there are a great number of persons with just enough means to +transport themselves to other countries, who, finding it impossible to +live at home in comfort, carry themselves and their capital out of +Ireland; so that, year after year, she loses a large portion of those +between the very poorest and the more wealthy classes of society, and +with them many of the opportunities for the employment of labour. + +I do not believe that the Bill for regulating the relations of landlord +and tenant, as recommended by the hon. Member for the County of +Limerick, will restore prosperity to Ireland. Such a measure may be +passed with great advantage; but if it be intended by a Bill with this +title to vest the ownership of the land in the present occupiers, I +believe this House will never pass it, and if it did, that it would +prove most fatal to the best interests of the country. I think we have a +right to blame the Government that as yet we have not seen the Bill for +the sale of encumbered estates in Ireland. I wish to ask why such a Bill +is not ready before this? [Lord John Russell: 'The Bill has been ready a +long time'] The noble Lord says the Bill has been ready long ago; but +that statement only makes the Government open to greater blame, for if +the Bill is ready, why has it not been brought forward before this? Last +Session the Bill was withdrawn, and the reason given was that landlords +and mortgagees did not like it. If the Government wait till the +landlords and mortgagees like it, it will never be brought forward at +all. Had they waited till the Irish landlords asked for the Poor-law, +there would have been no Poor-law in Ireland now. + +The Government should disregard the opposition of these parties, and +should take their stand above all class interests. They must refuse to +listen to the interested suggestions of one class or the other, and they +must remember that they are the Executive Government of the country, and +bound to act for the public good. There is an unanimous admission now +that the misfortunes of Ireland are connected with the question of the +management of the land. I have a theory that, in England as well as in +Ireland, the proprietors of the soil are chiefly responsible for +whatever bad legislation has been inflicted upon us. The ownership of +land confers more political power than the possession of any other +description of property. The Irish landowners have been willing parties +to the past legislation for Ireland, and they have also had the +administration and execution of the laws in that country. The encumbered +condition of landed property in Ireland is at this moment the most +pressing question. I am informed by a gentleman in Dublin, of the best +means of information and of undoubted veracity, that in the province of +Connaught there is not five per cent, of the land free from settlements +of one kind or other, and that probably not one per cent, is free from +mortgages. I have asked Irish Members of all parties if this be true, +and not one of them is disposed to deny it; and if it be true, I say it +is idle to seek elsewhere for the source of the evils of Ireland; and +every day, nay, every hour we allow to go by without taking instant +measures to remedy this crying mischief, only adds to the criminality +which rests on us for our past legislation. + +Patchwork legislation will not now succeed; speeches from the Lord +Lieutenant--articles in the newspapers--lending to the landowners at 3 +1/2 per cent. money raised by taxation from the traders of England, who +have recently been paying 8 per cent.--all will fail to revive the +industry of Ireland. I will now state what, in my opinion, is the +remedy, and I beg to ask the attention of the Government to it, because, +though they may now think it an extreme one, I am convinced that the +time will come when they will be compelled to adopt it. + +In the first place, it is their duty to bring in a Sale of Estates Bill, +and make it easy for landowners who wish to dispose of their estates to +do so. They should bring in a Bill to simplify the titles to land in +Ireland. I understand that it is almost impossible to transfer an estate +now, the difficulties in the way of a clear title being almost +insurmountable. In the next place, they should diminish temporarily, if +not permanently, all stamp duties which hinder the transfer of landed +property, and they should pass a law by which the system of entailing +estates should for the future be prevented. [Laughter.] I can assure +hon. Gentlemen who laugh at this, that at some not distant day this must +be done, and not in Ireland only, but in England also. It is an absurd +and monstrous system, for it binds, as it were, the living under the +power of the dead. + +The principle on which the law should proceed is this, that the owner of +property should be permitted to leave it to whomsoever he will, provided +the individual is living when the will is made; but he should not be +suffered, after he is dead, and buried, and forgotten, to speak and +still to direct the channel through which the estate should pass. I +shall be told that the law of entail in Ireland is the same as in +England, and that in Scotland it is even more strict. I admit it; but +the evil is great in England, and in Scotland it has become intolerable, +and must soon be relaxed if not abolished. Perhaps I shall be told that +the laws of entail and primogeniture are necessary for the maintenance +of our aristocratic institutions; but if the evils of Ireland spring +from this source, I say, perish your aristocratic institutions rather +than that a whole nation should be in this terrible condition. If your +aristocratic families would rear up their children in habits of +business, and with some notions of duty and prudence, these mischievous +arrangements would not be required, and they would retain in their +possession estates at least as large as is compatible with the interests +of the rest of the community. If the laws of entail and primogeniture +are sound and just, why not apply them to personal property as well as +to freehold? Imagine them in force in the middle classes of the +community, and it will be seen at once that the unnatural system, if +universal, would produce confusion; and confusion would necessitate its +total abolition. + +I am thoroughly convinced that everything the Government or Parliament +can do for Ireland will be unavailing, unless the foundation of the work +be laid well and deep, by clearing away the fetters under which land is +now held, so that it may become the possession of real owners, and be +made instrumental to the employment and sustentation of the people. Hon. +Gentlemen opposite may fancy themselves interested in maintaining the +present system; but there is surely no interest they can have in it +which they will weigh against the safety and prosperity of Ireland? I +speak as a representative from a county which suffers extremely from the +condition of Ireland. Lancashire is periodically overrun by the +pauperism of Ireland; for a year past it has suffered most seriously +from the pestilence imported from Ireland; and many of the evils which +in times past have been attributed to the extension of manufactures in +that county have arisen from the enormous immigration of a suffering and +pauperized people driven for sustenance from their own country. + +As a Lancashire representative, I protest most solemnly against a system +which drives the Irish population to seek work and wages in this country +and in other countries, when both might be afforded them at home. +Parliament is bound to remedy this state of things. The present +Parliament contains a larger number of men of business and of members +representing the middle classes than any former Parliament. The present +Government is essentially of the middle class--[a laugh]--and its +Members have on many occasions shown their sympathy with it. Let the +hon. Gentleman laugh; but he will not deny that no Government can long +have a majority in this House which does not sympathise with the great +middle class of this country. If the Government will manfully and +courageously grapple with the question of the condition of land in +Ireland, they will, I am convinced, be supported by a majority of the +Members of this House, they will enable the strength and skill of +Irishmen to be expended on their own soil, and lay the foundation of her +certain prosperity by giving that stimulus and reward to industry which +it cannot have in the present circumstances of that country. Sir, I feel +it impossible to refuse my vote in favour of the Bill now before us; but +I am compelled to say, that unless the Government will zealously promote +measures in the direction I have indicated, they cannot hope long to +retain the confidence of this House or of the country. + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +III. + +EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, AUGUST 25, 1848. +From the speeches that have been delivered in this debate, and from what +we know of Ireland, it is clear that Ireland is so entirely +disorganised, that it is extremely difficult to suggest any means by +which relief can be extensively given without causing two evils: first, +the waste of a great portion of the money which is granted; and next, +the demoralization of a large number of those to whom the relief is +given. It is on account of these difficulties that I am disposed to make +great allowance for the measures which the Government have undertaken, +as well as for any propositions which may be made by the hon. Member for +Stroud, even when they appear somewhat inconsistent with correct +economical principles. + +As this is probably the last opportunity during this Session when the +question of the condition of Ireland can be discussed, I am anxious to +avail myself of it to offer a few observations to the House, and to +explain briefly what I conceive to be the course which ought to be taken +with regard to that country, to enable its population to place +themselves in a position of comfort and independence. The past of +Ireland is known to us all; it is a tale of idleness, and poverty, and +periodical insurrection; the present of Ireland is like the past, except +that at this moment all its ordinary evils are exhibited in an +aggravated form. But there are one or two points with regard to this +subject to which I wish especially to ask the attention of the House. +Have you ever fully considered the effect which this state of things in +Ireland has upon the condition of certain districts in England? We have +had some threatenings of disturbances in England, and of disaffection--I +hope it is not wide-spread--here and there in various parts of the +country. Take the county of Lancaster as an example, and you will see +something of the consequences of a large influx of the Irish population +into that district. In Liverpool and Manchester, and in all the belt of +towns which surround Manchester, there is a large Irish population--in +fact, there is an Irish quarter in each of these towns. It is true that +a great number of these persons are steady, respectable, and +industrious, but it is notorious that a portion of them are, in some +degree, the opposite of all this. They bring to this country all the +vices which have prevailed so long in Ireland; their influence on the +people of Lancashire is often of an unfavourable character, and the +effect of their example on the native population must necessarily be +injurious. We find that crimes attended with violence prevail too +generally in Lancashire and Yorkshire. These crimes to a large extent +are committed by persons who are not natives of those counties, but who +come from Ireland, because it is impossible for them to find subsistence +in that country. + +There is another point which seems to me important. Driven forth by +poverty, Irishmen emigrate in great numbers, and in whatever quarter of +the world an Irishman sets his foot, there stands a bitter, an +implacable enemy of England. That is one of the results of the wide- +spread disaffection that exists in Ireland. There are hundreds of +thousands--I suppose there are millions--of the population of the United +States of America who are Irish by birth, or by immediate descent; and +be it remembered, Irishmen settled in the United States have a large +influence in public affairs. They sometimes sway the election of Members +of the Legislature, and may even affect the election of the President of +the Republic. There may come a time when questions of a critical nature +will be agitated between the Governments of Great Britain and the United +States; and it is certain that at such a time the Irish in that country +will throw their whole weight into the scale against this country, and +against peace with this country. These are points which it is necessary +to consider, and which arise out of the lamentable condition in which +Ireland is placed. + +When we reflect for a moment upon the destitution which millions of our +countrymen suffer in that unfortunate island, the conclusion is +inevitable that either the Government or the people of Ireland are in +fault. I think both are in fault. I think the Government has been +negligent of Ireland. I do not mean the present Government in +particular; for they are fully as anxious for the welfare of Ireland as +any former Administration has been--but I think the Government generally +has been negligent of Ireland. It is a common thing to hear it said, and +especially by Gentlemen sitting on the Treasury bench, that the remedy +for Irish evils is difficult, and that the difficulty seems +insurmountable; but the House may rest assured that no difficulty can be +so great as that which must be met if no remedy is applied. To do +anything that can be effectual, must be infinitely less dangerous than +to do nothing. + +Now I believe the real difficulties which beset this question do not +arise from anything in Ireland, so much as from the constitution of the +Government. This House, and the other House of Parliament, are almost +exclusively aristocratic in their character. The Administration is +therefore necessarily the same, and on the Treasury benches aristocracy +reigns supreme. No fewer than seven Members of the Cabinet are Members +of the House of Lords; and every other Member of it is either a Lord by +title, or on the very threshold of the peerage by birth or marriage. I +am not blaming them for this; it may even be that from neither House of +Parliament can fourteen better men be chosen to fill their places. But I +maintain that in the present position of Ireland, and looking at human +nature as it is, it is not possible that fourteen Gentlemen, +circumstanced as they are, can meet round the Council table, and with +unbiassed minds fairly discuss the question of Ireland, as it now +presents itself to this House, to the country, and to the world. + +The condition of Ireland requires two kinds of remedies--one political, +the other social; and it is hard to tell where the one ends and the +other begins. I will speak first of the political remedies. At present, +there prevails throughout three-fourths of the Irish people a total +unbelief in the honesty and integrity of the Government of this country. +There may or may not be good grounds for all this ill feeling; but that +it exists, no man acquainted with Ireland will deny. The first step to +be taken is to remove this feeling; and, to do this, some great measure +or measures should be offered to the people of Ireland, which will act +as a complete demonstration to them that bygones are to be bygones, with +regard to the administration of Irish affairs, and that henceforth new, +generous, and equal principles of government are to be adopted. + +I have on a former occasion stated my opinions on one or two subjects, +and I will venture again briefly to explain them to the House. Ireland +has long been a country of jars and turmoil, and its jars have arisen +chiefly from religious dissensions. In respect of matters of religion +she has been governed in a manner totally unknown in England and +Scotland. If Ireland has been rightly governed--if it has been wise and +just to maintain the Protestant Church established there, you ought, in +order to carry out your system, to establish Prelacy in Scotland, and +Catholicism in England; though, if you were to attempt to do either the +one or the other, it would not be a sham but a real insurrection that +you would provoke. There must be equality between the great religious +sects in Ireland--between Catholic and Protestant. It is impossible that +this equality can be much longer denied. + +It is suspected that it is the intention of the Government to bring +forward at no distant day, if they can catch the people of England +napping, a proposition for paying the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland. +On more than one ground I should object to any such scheme. In the first +place, I believe the Government cannot, from any funds they possess, or +from any they can obtain, place the Catholic priests on an equality with +the ministers of the Protestant Church; and if they cannot do that in +every respect, the thing is not worth attempting. They will, I think, +find it infinitely more easy, and it will certainly be much more in +accordance with political justice, and with the true interests of +religion, to withdraw from Ireland the Church Establishment which now +exists there, and to bring about the perfect equality which may be +secured by taking away so much of the funds as are proved to be totally +unnecessary for the wants of the population. I do not mean that you +should withdraw from the Protestant Church every sixpence now in its +possession; what I mean is, that you should separate it from the State, +and appropriate all the funds of which it might justly be deprived to +some grand national object, such as the support and extension of the +system of education now established in Ireland; an appropriation of +money which would, I am sure, produce in the minds of the people of +Ireland an entire change of feeling with regard to the legislation of +Parliament in relation to their country. + +With regard to the Parliamentary representation of Ireland, having +recently spent seventy-three days in an examination of the subject, +whilst serving as a Member of the Dublin Election Committee, I assert +most distinctly that the representation which exists at this moment is a +fraud; and I believe it would be far better if there were no +representation at all, because the people would not then be deluded by +the idea that they had a representative Government to protect their +interests. The number of taxes which the people have to pay, in order to +secure either the municipal or Parliamentary franchise, is so great that +it is utterly impossible for the constituencies to be maintained, and +for public opinion--the honest, real opinion of intelligent classes in +Ireland--to obtain any common or decent degree of representation in the +Imperial Legislature. I feel quite confident that in the next Session of +Parliament, the questions of religious equality in Ireland and of Irish +representation must receive a much more serious attention than they have +obtained in any past Session. + +I come now to those social questions which must also receive the +attention of Parliament; for if they do not, the political remedies +will, after all, be of very little permanent use. I advocate these +political changes on the ground, not that they will feed the hungry or +employ the idle, but that they will be as oil thrown upon the waters, +and will induce the people no longer to feel themselves treated as a +conquered race. It is agreed on all sides that the social remedies which +are immediately possible to us, are those having reference to the mode +in which the land of Ireland is owned, or held and cultivated--perhaps +'not cultivated' would be a more correct expression. The noble Lord at +the head of the Government has alluded to parts of Ireland in which it +is impossible that the land as at present held, or the rates which can +be collected, can find relief or sustentation for the people. It is a +notorious fact, that there are vast tracts of land in Ireland, which, if +left in the hands of nominal and bankrupt owners, will never to the end +of time support the population which ought to live upon them. And it is +on this ground that I must question the policy of measures for expending +public money with a view to the cultivation and reclamation of these +lands. + +The true solution of this matter is to get the lands out of the hands of +men who are the nominal, and not the real, possessors. But Parliament +maintains laws which act most injuriously in this particular. The law +and practice of entails tends to keep the soil in large properties, and +in the hands of those who cannot perform their duty to it. It will be +said that entails exist in Scotland and in England. Yes; but this +Session a law has passed, or is passing, to modify the system as it has +heretofore existed in Scotland; and in England many of its evils have +been partially overcome by the extraordinary, and, to some degree, the +accidental extension of manufacturing industry among the people. In +Ireland there are no such mitigations; a code of laws exists, under +which it is impossible for the land and the people to be brought, as it +were, together, and for industry to live in independence and comfort, +instead of crawling to this House, as it does almost annually, to ask +alms of the hardworking people of England. + +The law and practice of primogeniture is another evil of the same +character. It is a law unnatural and unjust at all times; but in the +present condition of Ireland it cannot much longer be endured. Were I +called upon--and it is a bold figure of speech to mention such a thing-- +but were I called upon to treat this Irish question, I would establish, +for a limited period at least, a special court in Ireland to adjudicate +on all questions connected with the titles and transfers of landed +property. This court should finally decide questions of title; it should +prepare and enforce a simple and short form of conveyance, as short +almost as that by which railway stock is transferred; and, without +regard to the public revenue, I would abolish every farthing of expense +which is now incurred in the duties on stamps, for the purpose of +facilitating the distribution of land in Ireland, and of allowing the +capital and industry of the people to work out its salvation. All this +is possible; and, more than this, it is all necessary. Well, now, what +is the real obstacle in our path? You have toiled at this Irish +difficulty Session after Session, and some of you have grown almost from +boyhood to grey-headed old men since it first met you in your +legislative career, and yet there is not in ancient or modern history a +picture so humiliating as that which Ireland presents to the world at +this moment; and there is not an English gentleman who, if he crossed +the Channel in the present autumn, and travelled in any foreign country, +would not wish to escape from any conversation among foreigners in which +the question of the condition of Ireland was mooted for a single moment. + +Let the House, if it can, regard Ireland as an English country. Let us +think of the eight millions of people, and of the millions of them +doomed to this intolerable suffering. Let us think of the half-million +who, within two years past, have perished miserably in the workhouses, +and on the highways, and in their hovels--more, far more than ever fell +by the sword in any war this country ever waged; let us think of the +crop of nameless horrors which is even now growing up in Ireland, and +whose disastrous fruit may be gathered in years and generations to come. +Let us examine what are the laws and the principles under which alone +God and nature have permitted that nations should become industrious and +provident. + +I hope the House will pardon me if I have said a word that can offend +any one. But I feel conscious of a personal humiliation when I consider +the state of Ireland. I do not wish to puff nostrums of my own, though +it may be thought I am opposed to much that exists in the present order +of things; but whether it tended to advance democracy, or to uphold +aristocracy, or any other system, I would wish to fling to the winds any +prejudice I have entertained, and any principle that may be questioned, +if I can thereby do one single thing to hasten by a single day the time +when Ireland shall be equal to England in that comfort and that +independence which an industrious people may enjoy, if the Government +under which they live is equal and just. + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +IV. + +RATE IN AID. +HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 2, 1849. +[On February 7, 1849, a proposal was made by the Chancellor of the +Exchequer that a sum of 50,000_l_. should be granted to certain +Irish Unions, in which distress was more than usually prevalent. The +resolution was passed on March 3. On March 27 the second reading of the +Bill founded on this resolution was moved, and the debate continued till +April 3, when the second reading was affirmed by 193 votes to 138. The +third reading was carried by 129 to 55, on April 30. The Bill passed the +House of Lords on May 18.] + +I ventured to move the adjournment of the debate on Friday night, +because I was anxious to have the opportunity of expressing the opinions +which I entertain on this most important subject. I am one of the +Committee appointed by this House to inquire into the working of the +Irish poor-law, and on that Committee I was one of the majority--the +large majority--by which the resolution for a rate in aid was affirmed. +In the division which took place on the same proposition in the House, I +also voted in the majority. But I am not by any means disposed to say +that there are no reasons against the course which I take, or against +the proposition which has been submitted to the House by the Government. +On the whole, however, I am prepared to-night to justify that +proposition, and the vote which I have given for it. + +As to the project of raising money for the purpose of these distressed +Unions, I think there can be no doubt in the mind of any Member of the +House, that money must come from some quarter. It appears to be a +question of life or money. All the witnesses who were examined before +the Committee; the concurrent testimony of all parties in Ireland, of +all the public papers, of all the speeches which have been delivered in +the course of this debate, go to prove, that unless additional funds be +provided, tens of thousands of our unfortunate fellow-countrymen in +Ireland must perish of famine in the course of the present year. If this +be true, it is evident that a great necessity is upon us; a grave +emergency, which we must meet. I am not prepared to justify the +proposition of a rate in aid merely on the ground of this necessity, +because it will be said, and justly, that the same amount of funds might +be raised by some other mode; but I am prepared to justify the +proposition which restricts this rate in aid to Ireland, on the ground +that the rest of the United Kingdom has, during the past three years, +paid its own rate in aid for Ireland; and this to a far larger amount +than any call which the Government now proposes to make on the rateable +property in Ireland. + +We have taken from the general taxation of this country, in the last two +or three years, for the purposes of Ireland, several millions, I may say +not fewer than from eight to ten millions sterling. We have paid also +very large subscriptions from private resources, to the same purpose; +the sums expended by the British Association were not less, in the +aggregate, than 600,000_l_., in addition to other large amounts +contributed. The Irish, certainly, gave something to these funds; but by +far the larger amount was paid by the tax-paying classes of Great +Britain. In addition to this special outlay for this purpose, very heavy +local taxation has been incurred by several of the great communities of +this island, for the purpose of supporting the pauperism which has +escaped from Ireland to Great Britain. In this metropolis, in Glasgow, +in Liverpool, and in the great manufacturing town which I have the +honour to represent, the overflow of Irish pauperism has, within the +last two or three years more especially, occasioned a vast additional +burden of taxation. I believe the hon. Member for South Lancashire made +some statement in this House on a former occasion with respect to the +burden which was inflicted upon Liverpool by the Irish paupers, who +constantly flow into that town. As to Glasgow, the poor-rate levied last +year in the city parish alone, amounted to 70,000_l_.; and this +year, owing to the visitation of cholera and the poverty thereby +engendered, there will be an additional assessment of 20,000_l_. +The city parish contains only about 120,000 or 130,000 of the 280,000 +residents in the mass of buildings known by the general name of Glasgow. +Of the sum levied as poor-rate in the city parish, it is estimated that, +on an average, two-thirds are spent upon Irish paupers. The ranks of +these Irish paupers are recruited to a comparatively small extent from +the Irish workmen, who have been, with their families, attracted by, and +who have found employment in, the numerous manufactories of Glasgow. The +Irish paupers, upon whom two-thirds of the Glasgow poor-rates are spent, +are principally squalid and destitute creatures who are brought over as +deck passengers, clustering like bees to the bulwarks and rigging, by +almost every steamer that sails from a northern Irish port. With respect +to the town of Manchester, I am able to give some more definite +particulars as to the burthen imposed upon the inhabitants for the +support of the Irish casual poor. In the year 1848, the sum expended in +the relief of the settled poor, which term includes the resident Irish +who are not distinguished by name from the English, amounted to +37,847_l_. The sum expended for the relief of the non-settled +English paupers in the town of Manchester, in the year 1848, was +18,699_l_. The amount expended for the relief of casual Irish poor +alone was 28,007_l_. The total assessment of Manchester is +647,568_l_., which, if divided by the amount required to relieve +the casual Irish poor, would amount to a rate of 10 1/2 _d_. in the +pound upon every pound of rateable property in the town of Manchester; +but if estimated according to the property really rated (as there are +great numbers of persons who, from poverty, do not pay the poor-rates on +the property they occupy), the amount of assessment for the relief of +the casual Irish poor alone will be from 15_d_. to 18_d_. in +the pound, and the charge upon the ratepayers of Manchester for the +relief of the Irish casual poor during the last year is not less than +2_s_. 1_d_. per head upon the whole population of that town. + +Now, during the last year, Manchester had to struggle with very severe +difficulties, and the manufacturers there suffered most acutely from +various causes. The failure of the cotton crop of 1846, the panic in the +financial and commercial world in 1847, the convulsions in the European +States in 1848--all these contributed to bring upon Manchester enormous +evil; and in addition to this we had to bear an additional burden of +28,000_l_. for the maintenance of the casual Irish poor. I have +here an analysis of the poor-rates collected in Manchester during the +last four years, and I will briefly state the results to the House. In +the year 1845 the amount of rates collected expressly for the relief of +the casual Irish poor was 3,500_l_. In 1846 the cost of the casual +Irish poor imposed a burden upon Manchester of 3,300_l_.; in 1847 +of 6,558_l_.; and in 1848 this item of expenditure reached the +extraordinary sum of 28,007_l_. The people of Manchester have +uttered no loud or clamorous complaints respecting the excessive burden +borne by them for the support of the Irish. They have sent no urgent +deputations to the Government on the subject of this heavy expense. But, +seeing that they have paid this money for the relief of Irish paupers, +and seeing also that the smaller manufacturing and other towns in +England have also paid no small sums for Irish paupers, they do think, +and I here express my conviction, that it will be seen and admitted that +we have paid our rate in aid for the relief of Ireland, and that it does +become the landowners and persons of property in that country to make an +effort during a temporary period to supply that small sum which is by +this Bill demanded of them. + +I will now pay a few words regarding the province of Ulster. An hon. +Gentleman opposite, the Member for Londonderry, who made a not very +civil speech, so far as it regarded persons who entertain the same +opinions generally which I profess, seemed to allege that there was no +party so tyrannical as those who wished to carry this rate in aid, and +that no body of men on earth were so oppressed as the unfortunate +proprietors of Ulster. [Mr. Bateson: 'The farmers of Ulster'] I have +made a calculation, the result of which is, that, with the population of +Ulster, a 6_d_. rate would be 82,000_l_. a-year, or 164,000_l_. for the +two years during which they will be required to pay towards the support +of their fellow-countrymen in the south and west. If I were an Ulster +proprietor, I would not have raised my voice against such a proposition, +because it is not a state of things of an ordinary character, nor are +these proprietors called on to do that which nobody else has done before +them. Neither were they called upon before other sources had been +applied to. Had I been an Ulster proprietor, I would rather have left +this House than have taken the course they have pursued in denouncing +this measure. As to the farmers of Ulster, they would not have raised +this opposition had they not been instigated to do so by hon. Members in +this House, and by the proprietors in that province, whom they +represented. It appears by the reports of the inspectors under the poor- +law, that where there has been a difficulty in collecting rates, and the +people have refused to pay, they have followed the example of the higher +and landlord class; and the conduct of that class in many cases has been +such as to render the collection extremely difficult. [Mr. Bateson: 'Not +in Ulster'] I do not speak of Ulster particularly in this instance, but +the case has occurred in other places; but happily for Ulster the burden +has not proved so serious in that province. + +I have heard a good deal said respecting the resignation of Mr. +Twisleton, who preferred giving up his situation to supporting the rate +in aid. But the reasons assigned by Mr. Twisleton destroy the importance +of his own act. He did not insist upon the question whether Ulster was +able to bear the rate in aid; but his objection was that Ulster was +Ulster, and more Ulster than it was Ireland. He said Ulster preferred +being united with England, rather than with Leinster, Connaught, and +Munster; in short, that Ulster was unwilling to be made a part of +Ireland. Now, if this Bill can succeed in making Ulster a part of +Ireland in interests and sympathies, I think it will be attended with a +very happy result, and one that will compensate for some portion of the +present misfortunes of Ireland. + +But the hon. Member also, in another part of his speech, charged the +Government with having caused the calamities of Ireland. Now, if I were +the hon. Member, I would not have opened up that question. My opinion +is, that the course which Parliament has taken with respect to Ireland +for upwards of a century, and especially since the Union, has been in +accordance with the wishes of the proprietors of the land of that +country. If, therefore, there has been misgovernment in Ireland during +that period, it is the land which has influenced Parliament, and the +landowners are responsible. I do not mean to say that the House of +Commons is not responsible for taking the evil advice which the +landowners of Ireland have proffered; but what I mean to assert is, that +this advice has been almost invariably acted upon by the Government. +This it is which has proved fatal to the interests of Ireland; the +Ulster men have stood in the way of improvements in the Franchise, in +the Church, and in the Land question; they have purchased Protestant +ascendancy, and the price paid for it is the ruin and degradation of +their country. So much for the vote which I am about to give in support +of the rate in aid. + +In the next place, I must observe that if an income tax were to be +substituted for a rate in aid, I think I could show substantial reasons +why it would not be satisfactory. In the first place, I take an +objection to the imposition of an income tax for the express purpose of +supporting paupers. This, I apprehend, is a fatal objection at the +outset. I understand that there has been a document issued by a +Committee in another place, which has reported favourably for the +substitution of an income tax in lieu of the rate in aid. I always find +that if a proposition is brought forward by the Government to impose a +new tax, it is always for a tax which is disliked, and I conclude, that +if an income tax for Ireland had been proposed instead of the rate in +aid, that would have been repudiated with quite as much vigour as the +proposition now before the House. + +And now I will address a few words to the general question of Ireland, +which I think may be fairly entered upon in this debate after the speech +of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth. What have we been +doing all the Session? With the exception of the Jewish Oaths Bill, and +the Navigation Laws, our attention has been solely taken up with Irish +matters. From the incessant recurrence of the Irish debate, it would +seem, either that the wrongs and evils endured by the Irish people are +incurable, or else that we lack statesmen. I always find that, whoever +happens to sit on the other side of the table, he always has some scheme +to propose for the regeneration of Ireland. The noble Lord on the +Treasury bench had his schemes for that purpose when he was seated +opposite. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth now has his +scheme to propose, and if he can succeed in it, he will not only have +the universal wish of the nation in his favour, but the noble Lord also +who is at the head of the Government will not, I am sure, object to give +way to any man who will settle the Irish question. But the treatment of +this Irish malady remains ever the same. We have nothing for it still +but force and alms. You have an armed force there of 50,000 men to keep +the people quiet, large votes are annually required to keep the people +quiet, and large votes are annually required to keep the people alive. I +presume the government by troops is easy, and that the + + 'Civil power may snore at ease, + While soldiers fire--to keep the peace.' + +But the noble Lord at the head of the Government has no policy to +propose for Ireland. If he had, he would have told us what it is before +now. The poor-law as a means of regenerating Ireland is a delusion. So +is the rate in aid. I do not believe in the regenerating power either of +the poor-law or of the rate in aid. There may occur cases where farmers +will continue to employ labourers for the mere purpose of preventing +them from coming on the poor-rates, but these are exceptions. If the +desire of gain will not cause the employment of capital, assuredly poor- +rates wall not. A poor-law adds to pauperism, by inviting to idleness. +It drags down the man who pays, and demoralises him who receives. It may +expose, it may temporarily relieve, it will increase, but it can never +put an end to pauperism. The poor-law and the rate in aid are, +therefore, utterly unavailing for such a purpose. + +It is the absence of all demand for labour that constitutes the real +evil of Ireland. In the distressed Unions a man's labour is absolutely +worth nothing. It is not that the Irish people will not work. I spoke to +an Irish navigator the other day respecting his work, and I asked him +why his countrymen did not work in their own country. 'Give them +2_s_. 8_d_. a-day,' said he, 'and you will find plenty who +will work.' There exists in Ireland a lamentable want of employment. The +land there enjoys a perpetual sabbath. If the people of Ireland were set +to work, they would gain their subsistence; but if this course is not +adopted, they must either continue to be supported out of the taxes, or +else be left to starve. In order to show how great is the general +poverty in Ireland, I will read a statement of the comparative amount of +legacy duty paid in the two countries. In England, in the year 1844, the +amount of capital on which legacy duty was paid was 44,393,887_l_.; +in Ireland, in 1845, the amount of capital on which legacy duty was paid +was 2,140,021_l_.--the population of the latter being nearly one- +half of the former, whilst the proportion between the capital paying +legacy duty is only one-twentieth. In 1844, the legacy duty paid in +England was 1,124,435_l_., with a population of 16,000,000; in +Scotland it was 74,116_l_., with a population of 3,000,000; whilst +Ireland paid only 53,618_l_., with a population of 8,000,000. These +facts offer the strongest possible proof of the poverty of Ireland. + +On looking over the reports of the Poor-law Inspectors, I find them +teeming with statements of the wretchedness which prevails in the +distressed districts of Ireland. The general character of the reports +is, that starvation is, literally speaking, gradually driving the +population into their graves. The people cannot quit their hovels for +want of clothing, whilst others cannot be discharged from the workhouses +owing to the same cause. Men are seen wearing women's apparel, not being +able to procure proper clothing; whilst, in other instances, men, women, +and children are all huddled together under bundles of rags, unable to +rise for lack of covering; workhouses and prisons are crowded beyond +their capacity to contain, the mortality being very great in them. +Persons of honest character commit thefts in order to be sent to prison, +and some ask, as a favour, to be transported. + +I know of nothing like this in the history of modern times. The only +parallel I can find to it is in the work of the great German author +(Mosheim), who, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, speaking of +the inroads of the barbarians into the Roman empire in the fifth +century, says that in Gaul, the calamities of the times drove many to +such madness, that they wholly excluded God from the government of the +world, and denied His providence over human affairs. It would almost +appear that this state of things is now to be seen in Ireland. The +prisons are crowded, the chapels deserted, society is disorganised and +ruined; labour is useless, for capital is not to be had for its +employment. The reports of the Inspectors say that this catastrophe has +only been hastened, and not originated, by the failure of the potato +crop during the last four years, and that all men possessed of any +intelligence must have foreseen what would ultimately happen. + +This being the case, in what manner are the Irish people to subsist in +future? There is the land, and there is labour enough to bring it into +cultivation. But such is the state in which the land is placed, that +capital cannot be employed upon it. You have tied up the raw material in +such a manner--you have created such a monopoly of land by your laws and +your mode of dealing with it, as to render it alike a curse to the +people and to the owners of it. Why, let me ask, should land be tied up +any more than any other raw material? If the supply of cotton wool were +limited to the hands of the Browns and the Barings, what would be the +condition of the Lancashire manufactories? What the manufactories would +be under such a monopoly, the land in the county of Mayo actually is +under the system which prevails with respect to it in Ireland. But land +carries with it territorial influence, which the Legislature will not +interfere with lest it should be disturbed. Land is sacred, and must not +be touched. + +The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade will +understand what I mean when I allude to the Land Improvement Company +which the Legislature is ready to charter for Ireland, but which it +fears to suffer to exist in England, lest the territorial influence +which ever accompanies the possession of landed estates should be lost +or diminished. But one of the difficulties to which a remedy must be +applied is the defective titles, which cannot easily be got rid of under +the present system of entails. This is one of the questions to which the +House of Commons must very soon give its serious attention. Then there +comes the question of settlements. Now, I do not say there ought not to +be any settlements; but what I mean to say is, that they are so bound up +and entangled with the system of entails as to present insuperable +difficulties in the way of dealing with land as a marketable commodity. +I have here an Opinion which I will read to the House, which I find +recorded as having been given by an eminent counsel: it is quoted in +Hayes' work on Conveyancing, and the Opinion was given on the occasion +of a settlement on the marriage of a gentleman having a fee-simple +estate:-- + + 'The proposals extend to a strict settlement by the gentleman + upon the first and other sons of the marriage. It will appear + from the preceding observations, that where the relative + circumstances are such as in the present case, a strict + settlement of the gentleman's estate does not ordinarily enter + into the arrangement, which begins and ends with his taking the + lady's fortune, and imposing an equivalent pecuniary charge upon + his estate (for her personal benefit). The proposals seldom go + further, unless there is hereditary rank or title to be + supported, or it is in contemplation to found a family. The + former of those two circumstances do not exist in this case, and + the latter would require the settlement of the bulk of the + estates. The policy of such settlements is extremely + questionable. It is difficult to refer them, in the absence of + both the motives already indicated, to any rational principle. + The present possessor has absolute dominion; his character is + known, his right unquestionable. He is asked to reduce himself to + a mere tenant for life in favour of an unborn son, of whose + character nothing can be predicted, and who, if he can be said to + have any right, cannot possibly have a preferable right. At no + very distant period the absolute dominion must be confided to + somebody--and why should confidence be reposed in the unborn + child rather than the living parent? Such, a settlement has no + tendency to protect or benefit the father, whose advantage and + comfort ought first to be consulted. It does not shield him from + the consequences of his own imprudence. On the contrary, if his + expenditure should in any instance exceed his income, he--as a + mere tenant for life--is in danger of being obliged to borrow on + annuity, a process which, once begun, proceeds generally and + almost necessarily to the exhaustion of the life income. The son + may be an idiot or a spendthrift. He may be tempted to raise + money by _post obit_. If to these not improbable results we + add all the family feuds generated between the tenant for life + and remainderman, in regard to the management and enjoyment by + the former of that estate which was once his own, particularly + with reference to cutting timber, the disadvantages of thus + fettering the dominion will appear greatly to preponderate. At + best, a settlement is a speculation; at worst, it is the occasion + of distress, profligacy, and domestic discord, ending not + unfrequently, as the Chancery Reports bear witness, in obstinate + litigation, ruinous alike to the peace and to the property of the + family. Sometimes the father effects an arrangement with his + eldest son on his coming of age; the son stipulating for an + immediate provision in the shape of an annuity, the father for a + gross sum to satisfy his creditors, or to portion his younger + children, and for a resettlement of the estate. This arrangement, + perhaps, is brought about by means, or imposes terms, which, in + the eye of equity, render it a fraud upon the son; and here we + have another source of litigation.' + +Now, what I have here read is exactly that which everybody's experience +tells us is the fact, and we have recently had a notable case which +exactly answers to that referred to in the last paragraph of this +Opinion. The practice of making settlements of this description is +mischievous--leads to endless litigation--and sooner or later the landed +classes must sink under it. + +The Irish proprietors have also another difficulty to contend with, and +that is their extravagance. It is said--for I cannot vouch for the fact +myself--that they keep too many horses and dogs. I do not mean to say +that an Irish gentleman may not spend his rents as he pleases; but I can +say that he cannot both spend his money and have it too. I think if they +would cast their pride on one side, and go honestly to work--if, instead +of their young men spending their time 'waiting for a commission' they +were to go into business, they would be far better and more usefully +employed, and they would find that the less humiliating condition of the +two. Another bane of Ireland is the prevalence of life interests in +landed property there. Under such a system the land can neither be +improved nor sold. Now what has the noble Lord at the head of the +Government done towards grappling with all these questions? Nothing-- +absolutely nothing. I think him very unwise in not propounding to +himself the momentous question, 'What shall be done for Ireland?' The +right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth has a plan. He entered upon +its outline on Friday last. But I doubt whether it has yet taken that +distinct form which it must assume in order that the House may take +cognisance of it. I admire some of the measures which the right hon. +Baronet intimates he would carry into effect, but there are other parts +of his proposals which are vague and impracticable. I think, if it is +believed in Ireland that a Commission is to be appointed to take charge +of the distressed Unions of the south and west--that the whole thing is +to be managed through a new department of the Government, and all +without the slightest trouble to the landlords--that there will be more +than ever a clinging to this wretched property in bankrupt estates, and +more than ever an indisposition to adopt those measures which are still +open to them, in the direction in which the right hon. Baronet wishes to +proceed. + +The right hon. Baronet stated in his first speech on this topic, that he +did not wish the transfer of property to be by individual barter; and on +Friday he stated that he was very much averse to allowing matters to go +on in their natural course, for by that means land would be unnaturally +cheapened. Well, but upon what conditions would the right hon. Baronet +buy land in Ireland? would it be under the same circumstances, and at +the same price, that he would buy an estate in Yorkshire or +Staffordshire? If any sane man goes to the west or south of Ireland to +purchase an estate, he must go on account of the cheapness of the +bargain--a cheapness which he hopes will compensate him for all the +disadvantages to which he must necessarily be subjected in such a +purchase. There can be no redemption for that part of Ireland--if it is +to be through the transfer of land--except the land take its natural +course, and come so cheap into the market that Englishmen and Scotchmen, +and Irishmen too having capital, will be willing to purchase it, +notwithstanding all its disadvantages. [Colonel Dunne: 'Hear, hear!'] +The hon. Member for Portarlington cheers that, as if it were an +extraordinary statement. If the hon. Member prefers purchasing what is +dear to what is cheap, he is not a very sensible man to legislate for +Ireland. If he thinks that a man will go into Galway and pay as much per +acre for an estate as he would in England, he is greatly mistaken; but +the fact is, I believe, that not only English and Scotch capital, but +that much Irish capital also, would be expended in the purchase of +estates in the south and west, if the ends which the right hon. Baronet +has in view were facilitated by this House. + +But we have a case in point which affords us some guidance upon this +question, and it is a case with which the right hon. Baronet the Member +for Tamworth, and the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, are very +familiar. I allude to the case of Stockport in 1842. Owing to a variety +of circumstances--I will not go into the question of the Corn-law, as +that is settled--but owing to a variety of circumstances, from 1838 to +1842 there was a continued sinking in the condition of Stockport--its +property depreciated to a lamentable extent. One man left property, as +he thought, worth 80,000_l_. or 90,000_l_. Within two years it +sold for little more than 30,000_l_. Since that time the son of one +man, then supposed to be a person of large property, has had relief from +the parochial funds. In 1842 the amount of the poor-rate averaged from +7_s_. to 8_s_. in the pound. From November 4, 1841, to May 30, +1842, the rates levied were 6_s_. in the pound, realising the +amount of 19,144_l_. From January 28, 1843, to August 2 of the same +year, the rates levied were 7_s_. in the pound, and the amount +raised was 21,948_l_. And bear in mind that at that time Stockport +was in process of depopulation--many thousands quitted the place--whole +streets were left with scarcely a tenant in them--some public-houses, +previously doing a large business, were let for little more than their +rates; in fact, Stockport was as fair a representative of distress +amongst a manufacturing community as Mayo, Galway, or any western county +of Ireland can be at this moment of distress amongst an agricultural +community. + +Now what was done in Stockport? There was a Commission of Inquiry, which +the then Home Secretary appointed. They made an admirable report, the +last paragraph of which ought to be read by every one who wishes to know +the character of the people of Stockport. Mr. Twisleton, speaking of +them, said that they were a noble people; and truly the exertions which +they made to avoid becoming chargeable upon the rates were heroic. Well +now, all this suffering was going on--the workhouses were crowded, the +people were emigrating, there was a general desolation, and if it had +not been for the harvest of 1842, which was a good one, and the gradual +recovery of trade which followed, nothing in Ireland can be worse than +the condition of Stockport would have been. What was the result? +Property was greatly depreciated, and much of it changed hands. +Something like half the manufacturers failed, and, of course, gave up +business altogether. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport purchased +property in the borough at that period, and since then he has laid out +not far short of a hundred thousand pounds, in a very large +manufacturing establishment in that town. In fact, the persons who are +now carrying on the manufacturing business in Stockport are of a more +substantial character than those who were swept away by the calamities +of 1842. This is a very sorrowful process. I can feel as much for those +persons as any man; but we must all submit to circumstances such as +these when they come. + +There are vicissitudes in all classes of society, and in all occupations +in which we may engage; and when we have, as now in Ireland, a state of +things--a grievous calamity not equalled under the sun,--it is the duty +of this House not to interfere with the ordinary and natural course of +remedy, and not to flinch from what is necessary for the safety of the +people by reason of any mistaken sympathy with the owners of cotton +mills or with the proprietors of landed estates. Now, I want Parliament +to remove every obstacle in the way of the free sale of land. I believe +that in this policy lies the only security you have for the restoration +of the distressed districts of Ireland. The question of a Parliamentary +title is most important; but I understand that the difficulty of this +arises from the system of entails beyond persons now living, and because +you must go back through a long search of sixty years before you can +make it quite clear that the title is absolutely secure. The right hon. +Baronet the Member for Tamworth suggested that the Lord Chancellor +should be ousted. I proposed last year that there should be a new court +established in Ireland, for the adjudication of cases connected with +land, and for no other purpose, and that it should thus relieve the +present courts from much of the business with which they are now +encumbered. But I do not say that even such a court would effect much +good, unless it were very much more speedy in its operations than the +existing courts. I believe that the present Lord Chancellor is admitted +to be as good a Judge as ever sat in the Court of Chancery; but he is +rather timid as a Minister, and inert as a statesman; and, if I am not +mistaken, he was in a great measure responsible for the failure of the +Bill for facilitating the sale of encumbered estates last Session. The +Government must have known, as well as I do, that such a measure could +not succeed, and that the clause which was introduced--on the third +reading, I believe--made it impossible to work it. + +There is another point, with regard to intestate estates. I feel how +tenderly one must speak, in this House, upon a question like this. Even +the right hon. Member for Tamworth, with all his authority, appeared, +when touching on this delicate question of the land, as if he were +walking upon eggs which he was very much afraid of breaking. I certainly +never heard the right hon. Gentleman steer through so many sinuosities +in a case; and hardly, at last, dared he come to the question, because +he was talking about land--this sacred land! I believe land to have +nothing peculiar in its nature which does not belong to other property; +and everything that we have done with the view of treating land +differently from other property has been a blunder--a false course which +we must retrace--an error which lies at the foundation of very much of +the pauperism and want of employment which so generally prevail. Now, +with regard to intestate estates, I am told that the House of Lords will +never repeal the law of primogeniture; but I do not want them to repeal +the law of primogeniture in the sense entertained by some people. I do +not want them to enact the system of France, by which a division of +property is compelled. I think that to force the division of property by +law is just as contrary to sound principles and natural rights as to +prevent its division, as is done by our law. If a man choose to act the +unnatural and absurd part of leaving the whole of his property to one +child, I should not, certainly, look with respect upon his memory; but I +would not interfere to prevent the free exercise of his will. I think, +however, if a man die by chance without a will, that it is the duty of +the Government to set a high moral example, and to divide the property +equally among the children of the former owner, or among those who may +be said to be his heirs--among those, in fact, who would fairly +participate in his personal estate. If that system of leaving all to the +eldest were followed out in the case of personalty, it would lead to +immediate confusion, and, by destroying the whole social system, to a +perfect anarchy of property. Why, then, should that course be followed +with regard to land? The repeal of the law would not of necessity +destroy the custom; but this House would no longer give its sanction to +a practice which is bad; and I believe that gradually there would be a +more just appreciation of their duties in this respect by the great body +of testators. + +Then, with regard to life interests; I would make an alteration there. I +think that life-owners should be allowed to grant leases--of course, +only on such terms as should ensure the successor from fraud--and that +estates should be permitted to be charged with the sums which were +expended in their improvement. Next, with regard to the registry of +land. In many European countries this is done; and high legal +authorities affirm that it would not be difficult to accomplish it in +this country. You have your Ordnance Survey. To make the Survey +necessary for a perfect registry of deeds throughout the kingdom, would +not cost more than 9_d_. an acre; and if you had your plans +engraved, it would be no great addition to the expense. There can be no +reason why the landowners should not have that advantage conferred upon +them, because, in addition to the public benefit, it would increase the +value of their lands by several years' purchase. Mr. Senior has stated, +that if there were the same ready means for the transfer of land as at +present exist for the transfer of personalty, the value of land would be +increased, if I mistake not, by nine years' purchase. This is a subject +which I would recommend to the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, now +distinguished as the advocate of the landed interest. + +Then with regard to stamps, I think that they might be reduced, at any +rate for a number of years, to a nominal amount. In fact, I would make +any sacrifice for the purpose of changing land from the hands of +insolvent and embarrassed owners into those of solvent persons, who +would employ it in a manner usefully and advantageously to the country +and themselves. There is another proposition with, regard to the waste +lands of Ireland. The Government made a proposal last year for obtaining +those waste lands, and bringing them into cultivation. That I thought +injudicious. But they might take those lands at a valuation, and, +dividing them into farms and estates of moderate size, might tempt +purchasers from different parts of the United Kingdom. By such means I +believe that a large proportion of the best of the waste lands might be +brought into cultivation. I believe that these are the only means by +which capital can be attracted to that country. + +The noble Lord at the head of the Government proposes to attract capital +to Ireland by a maximum rate and a charge upon the Unions. If that +maximum rate be all you have to propose, there will be no more +probability of capital flowing into those parts of Ireland where it is +so much required, than there was at the time when the poor-rate was +unknown. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth spoke about +emigration; and I think that he was rather unjust, or at least unwise, +in his observations with regard to voluntary emigration. Things that are +done voluntarily are not always done well; neither are things that are +done by the Government; and I know many cases where Government +undertakings have failed as eminently as any that have been attempted by +private enterprise. But it does not appear to me that there is much +wisdom in the project of emigration, although I know that some hon. +Gentlemen from Ireland place great faith in it as a remedy. I have +endeavoured to ascertain what is the relation of the population to the +land in Ireland, and this is what I find. In speaking of the Clifden +Union, the Inspectors state-- + + 'In conclusion, we beg to offer our matured opinion that the + resources of the Union would, if made available, be amply + sufficient for the independent support of its population.' + +Mr. Hamilton, who was examined before the Committee of which I am a +member, said, speaking of the Unions of Donegal and Glenties-- + + 'There is no over-population, if those Unions, according to their + capabilities, were cultivated as the average of English counties, + with the same skill and capital.' + +And Mr. Twisleton said-- + + 'I did not speak of a redundant population in reference to land, + only to capital. The land of Ireland could maintain double its + present population.' + +Then, if that be the case, I am not quite certain that we should be wise +in raising sums of money to enable the people to emigrate. The cost of +transporting a family to Australia, or even to Canada, is considerable; +and the question is, whether, with the means which it would require to +convey them to a distant shore, they might not be more profitably +employed at home. + +I probably shall be told that I propose schemes which are a great +interference with the rights of property. My opinion is that nothing can +be a greater interference and infringement of the rights of property +than the laws which regulate property now. I think that the landowners +are under an impression that they have been maintaining great influence, +political power, an hereditary aristocracy, and all those other +arrangements which some think should never be named without reverence +and awe; that they have been accustomed to look at these things, and to +fancy that they are worth the price they pay for them. I am of opinion +that the disadvantages under which those rights labour throughout the +United Kingdom are extreme; but in Ireland the disadvantages are +followed by results not known in this country. + +You speak of interference with property; but I ask what becomes of the +property of the poor man, which consists of his labour? Take those +4,000,000 persons who live in the distressed districts, as described by +the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth. Their property in labour +is almost totally destroyed. There they are--men whom God made and +permitted to come into this world, endowed with faculties like +ourselves, but who are unable to maintain themselves, and must either +starve or live upon others. The interference with their property has +been enormous--so great as absolutely to destroy it. Now, I ask the +landlords of Ireland, whether living in the state in which they have +lived for years is not infinitely worse than that which I have proposed +for them? Threatening letters by the post at breakfast-time--now and +then the aim of the assassin--poor-rates which are a grievous +interference with the rights of property, and this rate in aid, which +the gentlemen of Ulster declare to be directly opposed to all the rights +of property--what can be worse? + +I shall be told that I am injuring aristocratical and territorial +influence. What is that in Ireland worth to you now? What is Ireland +worth to you at all? Is she not the very symbol and token of your +disgrace and humiliation to the whole world? Is she not an incessant +trouble to your Legislature, and the source of increased expense to your +people, already over-taxed? Is not your legislation all at fault in what +it has hitherto done for that country? The people of Ulster say that we +shall weaken the Union. It has been one of the misfortunes of the +legislation of this House that there has been no honest attempt to make +a union with the whole people of Ireland up to this time. We have had a +union with Ulster, but there has been no union with the whole people of +Ireland, and there never can be a union between the Government and the +people whilst such a state of things exists as has for many years past +prevailed in the south and west of Ireland. + +The condition of Ireland at this moment is this--the rich are menaced +with ruin, and ruin from which, in their present course, they cannot +escape; whilst the poor are menaced with starvation and death. There are +hon. Gentlemen in this House, and there are other landed proprietors in +Ireland, who are as admirable in the performance of all their social +duties as any men to be found in any part of the world. We have had +brilliant examples mentioned in this House; but those men themselves are +suffering their characters to be damaged by the present condition of +Ireland, and are undergoing a process which must end in their own ruin; +because this demoralisation and pauperisation will go on in an extending +circle, and will engulf the whole property of Ireland in one common +ruin, unless something more be done than passing poor-laws and proposing +rates in aid. + +Sir, if ever there were an opportunity for a statesman, it is this. This +is the hour undoubtedly, and we want the man. The noble Lord at the head +of the Government has done many things for his country, for which I +thank him as heartily as any man--he has shown on some occasions as much +moral courage as it is necessary, in the state of public opinion, upon +any question, for a statesman to show; but I have been much disappointed +that, upon this Irish question, he has seemed to shrink from a full +consideration of the difficulty, and from a resolution to meet it +fairly. The character of the present, the character of any Government +under such circumstances, must be at stake. The noble Lord cannot, in +his position, remain inactive. Let him be as innocent as he may, he can +never justify himself to the country, or to the world, or to posterity, +if he remains at the head of this Imperial Legislature and is still +unable, or unwilling, to bring forward measures for the restoration of +Ireland. I would address the same language also to the noble Lord at the +head of the Irish Government, who has won, I must say, the admiration of +the population of this country for the temper and manner in which he has +administered the government of Ireland. But he must bear in mind that it +is not the highest effort of statesmanship to preserve the peace in a +country where there are very few men anxious to go to war, and to +preserve the peace, too, with 50,000 armed men at his command, and the +whole power of this empire to back him. All that may be necessary, and +peace at all hazards must be secured; but if that distinguished Nobleman +intends to be known hereafter as a statesman with regard to his rule in +Ireland, he must be prepared to suggest measures to the Government of a +more practical and directly operative character than any he has yet +initiated. + +Sir, I am ashamed, I must say, of the course which we have taken upon +this question. Look at that great subscription that was raised three +years ago for Ireland. There was scarcely a part of the globe from which +subscriptions did not come. The Pope, as was very natural, subscribed-- +the head of the great Mahometan empire, the Grand Seignior, sent his +thousand pounds--the uttermost parts of the earth sent in their +donations. A tribe of Red Indians on the American continent sent their +subscription; and I have it on good authority that even the slaves on a +plantation in one of the Carolinas subscribed their sorrowful mite that +the miseries of Ireland might be relieved. The whole world looked upon +the condition of Ireland, and helped to mitigate her miseries. What can +we say to all those contributors, who, now that they have paid, must he +anxious to know if anything is done to prevent a recurrence of these +calamities? We must tell them with blushes that nothing has been done, +but that we are still going on with the poor-rates, and that, having +exhausted the patience of the people of England in Parliamentary grants, +we are coming now with rates in aid, restricted altogether to the +property of Ireland. That is what we have to tell them; whilst we have +to acknowledge that our Constitution, boasted of as it has been for +generations past, utterly fails to grapple with this great question. + +Hon. Gentlemen turn with triumph to neighbouring countries, and speak in +glowing terms of our glorious Constitution. It is true, that abroad +thrones and dynasties have been overturned, whilst in England peace has +reigned undisturbed. But take all the lives that have been lost in the +last twelve months in Europe amidst the convulsions that have occurred-- +take all the cessation of trade, the destruction of industry, all the +crushing of hopes and hearts, and they will not compare for an instant +with the agonies which have been endured by the population of Ireland +under your glorious Constitution. And there are those who now say that +this is the ordering of Providence. I met an Irish gentleman the other +night, and, speaking upon the subject, he said that he saw no remedy, +but that it seemed as if the present state of things were the mode by +which Providence intended to solve the question of Irish difficulties. +But let us not lay these calamities at the door of Providence; it were +sinful in us, of all men, to do so. God has blessed Ireland--and does +still bless her--in position, in soil, in climate; He has not withdrawn +His promises, nor are they unfulfilled; there is still the sunshine and +the shower; still the seed-time and the harvest; and the affluent bosom +of the earth yet offers sustenance for man. But man must do his part--we +must do our part--we must retrace our steps--we must shun the blunders, +and, I would even say, the crimes of our past legislation. We must free +the land, and then we shall discover, and not till then, that industry, +hopeful and remunerated--industry, free and inviolate, is the only sure +foundation on which can be reared the enduring edifice of union and of +peace. + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +V. + +HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 17, 1866. +[The Fenian Conspiracy and threatened Insurrection in Ireland compelled +the Government to introduce a Bill to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act. It +was brought in suddenly, the House meeting on Saturday to consider it.] + +I OWE an apology to the Irish Members for stepping in to make an +observation to the House on this question. My strong interest in the +affairs of their country, ever since I came into Parliament, will be my +sufficient excuse. The Secretary of State, on the part of the Government +of which he is a Member, has called us together on an unusual day and at +an unusual hour, to consider a proposition of the greatest magnitude, +and which we are informed is one of extreme urgency. If it be so, I hope +it will not be understood that we are here merely to carry out the +behests of the Administration; and that we are to be permitted, if we +choose, to discuss this measure, and if possible to say something which +may mitigate the apparent harshness of the course which the Government +feels itself compelled to pursue. + +It is now more than twenty-two years since I was first permitted to take +my seat in this House. During that time I have on many occasions, with +great favour, been allowed to address it, but I declare that during the +whole of that period I have never risen to speak here under so strong a +feeling, as a Member of the House, of shame and of humiliation, as that +by which I find myself oppressed at this moment. The Secretary of State +proposes--as the right hon. Gentleman himself has said--to deprive no +inconsiderable portion of the subjects of the Queen--our countrymen, +within the United Kingdom--of the commonest, of the most precious, and +of the most sacred right of the English Constitution, the right to their +personal freedom. From the statement of the Secretary of State it is +clear that this is not asked to be done, or required to be done, with +reference only to a small section of the Irish people. He has named +great counties, wide districts, whole provinces, over which this alleged +and undoubted disaffection has spread, and has proposed that five or six +millions of the inhabitants of the United Kingdom shall suffer the loss +of that right of personal freedom that is guaranteed to all Her +Majesty's subjects by the Constitution of these realms. + +Now, I do not believe that the Secretary of State has overstated his +case for the purpose of inducing the House to consent to his +proposition. I believe that if the majority of the people of Ireland, +counted fairly out, had their will, and if they had the power, they +would unmoor the island from its fastenings in the deep, and move it at +least 2,000 miles to the West. And I believe, further, that if by +conspiracy, or insurrection, or by that open agitation to which alone I +ever would give any favour or consent, they could shake off the +authority, I will not say of the English Crown, but of the Imperial +Parliament, they would gladly do so. + +An hon. Member from Ireland a few nights ago referred to the character +of the Irish people. He said, and I believe it is true, that there is no +Christian nation with which we are acquainted amongst the people of +which crime of the ordinary character, as we reckon it in this country, +is so rare as it is amongst his countrymen. He might have said, also, +that there is no people--whatever they may be at home--more industrious +than his countrymen in every other country but their own. He might have +said more; that they are a people of a cheerful and joyous temperament. +He might have said more than this--that they are singularly grateful for +kindnesses shown to them, and that of all the people of our race they +are filled with the strongest sentiment of veneration. + +And yet, with such materials and with such a people, after centuries of +government--after sixty-five years of government by this House--you have +them embittered against your rule, and anxious only to throw off the +authority of the Crown and Queen of these realms. Now, this is not a +single occasion we are discussing. This is merely an access of the +complaint Ireland has been suffering under during the lifetime of the +oldest man in this House, that of chronic insurrection. No man can deny +this. I dare say a large number of the Members of this House, at the +time to which the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire referred, heard +the same speech on the same subject, from the same Minister to whom we +have listened to-day. [Sir G. Grey: 'No!'] I certainly thought I heard +the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department +make a speech before on the same question, but he was a Minister of the +Government on whose behalf a similar speech was made on the occasion +referred to, and no doubt concurred in every word that was uttered by +his Colleague. + +Sixty-five years ago this country and this Parliament undertook to +govern Ireland. I will say nothing of the manner in which that duty was +brought upon us--except this--that it was by proceedings disgraceful and +corrupt to the last degree. I will say nothing of the pretences under +which it was brought about but this--that the English Parliament and +people, and the Irish people too, were told, that if they once got rid +of the Irish Parliament they would dethrone for ever Irish factions, and +that with a united Parliament we should become a united, and stronger, +and happier people. During these sixty-five years--and on this point I +ask for the attention of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) who has +just spoken--there are only three considerable measures which Parliament +has passed in the interests of Ireland. One of them was the measure of +1829, for the emancipation of the Catholics and to permit them to have +seats in this House. But that measure, so just, so essential, and which, +of course, is not ever to be recalled, was a measure which the chief +Minister of the day, a great soldier, and a great judge of military +matters, admitted was passed under the menace of, and only because of, +the danger of civil war. The other two measures to which I have referred +are that for the relief of the poor, and that for the sale of the +incumbered estates; and those measures were introduced to the House and +passed through the House in the emergency of a famine more severe than +any that has desolated any Christian country of the world within the +last four hundred years. + +Except on these two emergencies I appeal to every Irish Member, and to +every English Member who has paid any attention to the matter, whether +the statement is not true that this Parliament has done nothing for the +people of Ireland. And, more than that, their complaints have been met-- +complaints of their sufferings have been met--often by denial, often by +insult, often by contempt. And within the last few years we have heard +from this very Treasury bench observations with regard to Ireland which +no friend of Ireland or of England, and no Minister of the Crown, ought +to have uttered with regard to that country. Twice in my Parliamentary +life this thing has been done--at least by the close of this day will +have been done--and measures of repression--measures for the suspension +of the civil rights of the Irish people--have been brought into +Parliament and passed with extreme and unusual rapidity. + +I have not risen to blame the Secretary of State or to blame his +Colleagues for the act of to-day. There may be circumstances to justify +a proposition of this kind, and I am not here to deny that these +circumstances now exist; but what I complain of is this: there is no +statesmanship merely in acts of force and acts of repression. And more +than that, I have not observed since I have been in Parliament anything +on this Irish question that approaches to the dignity of statesmanship. +There has been, I admit, an improved administration in Ireland. There +have been Lord-Lieutenants anxious to be just, and there is one there +now who is probably as anxious to do justice as any man. We have +observed generally in the recent Trials a better tone and temper than +were ever witnessed under similar circumstances in Ireland before. But +if I go back to the Ministers who have sat on the Treasury Bench since I +first came into this House--Sir Robert Peel first, then Lord John +Russell, then Lord Aberdeen, then Lord Derby, then Lord Palmerston, then +Lord Derby again, then Lord Palmerston again, and now Earl Russell--I +say that with regard to all these men, there has not been any approach +to anything that history will describe as statesmanship on the part of +the English Government towards Ireland. There were Coercion Bills in +abundance--Arms Bills Session after Session--lamentations like that of +the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) +that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was not made perpetual by a +clause which he laments was repealed. + +There have been Acts for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, like +that which we are now discussing; but there has been no statesmanship. +Men, the most clumsy and brutal, can do these things; but we want men of +higher temper--men of higher genius--men of higher patriotism to deal +with the affairs of Ireland. I should like to know whether those +statesmen who hold great offices have themselves comprehended the nature +of this question. If they have not, they have been manifestly ignorant; +and if they have comprehended it and have not dealt with it, they have +concealed that which they knew from the people, and evaded the duty they +owed to their Sovereign. I do not want to speak disrespectfully of men +in office. It is not my custom in this House. I know something of the +worrying labours to which they are subjected, and I know not how from +day to day they bear the burden of the labour imposed upon them; but +still I lament that those who wear the garb--enjoy the emoluments--and I +had almost said usurp the dignity of statesmanship, sink themselves +merely into respectable and honourable administrators, when there is a +whole nation under the sovereignty of the Queen calling for all their +anxious thoughts--calling for the highest exercise of the highest +qualities of the statesman. + +I put the question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He is the only +man of this Government whom I have heard of late years who has spoken as +if he comprehended this question, and he made a speech in the last +Session of Parliament which was not without its influence both in +England and in Ireland. I should like to ask him whether this Irish +question is above the stature of himself and of his Colleagues? If it +be, I ask them to come down from the high places which they occupy, and +try to learn the art of legislation and government before they practise +it. I myself believe, if we could divest ourselves of the feelings +engendered by party strife, we might come to some better result. Take +the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Is there in any legislative assembly in +the world a man, as the world judges, of more transcendent capacity? I +will say even, is there a man with a more honest wish to do good to the +country in which he occupies so conspicuous a place? + +Take the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the leader of the Opposition--is +there in any legislative assembly in the world, at this moment, a man +leading an Opposition of more genius for his position, who has given in +every way but one in which proof can be given that he is competent to +the highest duties of the highest offices of the State? Well, but these +men--great men whom we on this side and you on that side, to a large +extent, admire and follow fight for office, and the result is they sit +alternately, one on this side and one on that. But suppose it were +possible for these men, with their intellects, with their far-reaching +vision, to examine this question thoroughly, and to say for once, +whether this leads to office and to the miserable notoriety that men +call fame which springs from office, or not, 'If it be possible, we will +act with loyalty to the Sovereign and justice to the people; and if it +be possible, we will make Ireland a strength and not a weakness to the +British Empire.' It is from this fighting with party, and for party, and +for the gains which party gives, that there is so little result from the +great intellect of such men as these. Like the captive Samson of old,-- + + They grind in brazen fetters, under task, + With their Heaven-gifted strength--' + +and the country and the world gain little by those faculties which God +has given them for the blessing of the country and the world. + +The Secretary of State and the right hon. Gentleman opposite have +referred, even in stronger language, to the unhappy fact that much of +what now exists in Ireland has been brought there from the United States +of America. That is not a fact for us to console ourselves with; it only +adds to the gravity and the difficulty of this question. You may depend +upon it that if the Irish in America, having left this country, settle +there with so strong a hostility to us, they have had their reasons--and +if being there with that feeling of affection for their native country +which in all other cases in which we are not concerned we admire and +reverence, they interfere in Ireland and stir up there the sedition that +now exists, depend upon it there is in the condition of Ireland a state +of things which greatly favours their attempts. There can be no +continued fire without fuel, and all the Irish in America, and all the +citizens of America, united together, with all their organization and +all their vast resources, would not raise the very slightest flame of +sedition or of insurrectionary movement in England or in Scotland. I +want to know why they can do it in Ireland? Are you to say, as some +people say in America and in Jamaica when speaking of the black man, +that 'Nothing can be made of the Irishman'? + +Everything can be made of him in every country but his own. When he has +passed through the American school--I speak of him as a child, or in the +second generation of the Irish emigrant in that country--he is as +industrious, as frugal, as independent, as loyal, as good a citizen of +the American Republic, as any man born within the dominions of that +Power. Why is it not so in Ireland? I have asked the question before, +and I will ask it again--it is a pertinent question, and it demands an +answer. Why is it that no Scotchman who leaves Scotland--and the Scotch +have been taunted and ridiculed for being so ready to leave their +country for a better climate and a better soil--how comes it, I ask, +that no Scotchman who emigrates to the United States, and no Englishman +who plants himself there, cherishes the smallest hostility to the +people, to the institutions, or to the Government of his native country? +Why does every Irishman who leaves his country and goes to the United +States immediately settle himself down there, resolved to better his +condition in life, but with a feeling of ineradicable hatred to the laws +and institutions of the land of his birth? Is not this a fit question +for statesmanship? + +If the Secretary of State, since his last measure was brought in, now +eighteen years ago, had had time, in the multiplicity of his duties, to +consider this question; instead of now moving for the suspension of the +Habeas Corpus Act, he might possibly have been rejoicing at the +universal loyalty which prevailed, not throughout Great Britain only, +but throughout the whole population of Ireland. I spent two autumns in +Ireland in the years 1849 and 1852, and I recollect making a speech in +this House not long afterwards, which some persons thought was not very +wide of the mark. I recommended the Ministers of that time to take an +opportunity to hold an Irish Session of the Imperial Parliament--to have +no great questions discussed connected with the ordinary matters which +are brought before us, but to keep Parliament to the consideration of +this Irish question solely, and to deal with those great matters which +are constant sources of complaint; and I said that a Session that was so +devoted to such a blessed and holy work, would be a Session, if it were +successful, that would stand forth in all our future history as one of +the noblest which had ever passed in the annals of the Imperial +Parliament. + +Now, Sir, a few days ago everybody in this House, with two or three +exceptions, was taking an oath at that table. It is called the Oath of +Allegiance. It is meant at once to express loyalty and to keep men +loyal. I do not think it generally does bind men to loyalty, if they +have not loyalty without it. I hold loyalty to consist, in a country +like this, as much in doing justice to the people as in guarding the +Crown; for I believe there is no guardianship of the Crown in a country +like this, where the Crown is not supposed to rest absolutely upon +force, so safe as that of which we know more in our day probably than +has been known in former periods of our history, when the occupant of +the Throne is respected, admired, and loved by the general people. Now, +how comes it that these great statesmen whom I have named, with all +their Colleagues, some of them as eminent almost as their leaders, have +never tried what they could do--have never shown their loyalty to the +Crown by endeavouring to make the Queen as safe in the hearts of the +people of Ireland as she is in the hearts of the people of England and +of Scotland? + +Bear in mind that the Queen of England can do almost nothing in these +matters. By our Constitution the Crown can take no direct part in them. +The Crown cannot direct the policy of the Government; nay, the Crown +cannot, without the consent of this House, even select its Ministers; +therefore the Crown is helpless in this matter. And we have in this +country a Queen, who, in all the civilized nations of the world, is +looked upon as a model of a Sovereign, and yet her name and fame are +discredited and dishonoured by circumstances such as those which have +twice during her reign called us together to agree to a proposition like +that which is brought before us to-day. + +There is an instructive anecdote to be found in the annals of the +Chinese Empire. In a remote province there was an insurrection. The +Emperor put down the insurrection, but he abased and humbled himself +before the people, and said that if he had been guilty of neglect he +acknowledged his guilt, and he humbled himself before those on whom he +had brought the evil of an insurrection in one of his provinces. The +Queen of these realms is not so responsible. She cannot thus humble +herself; but I say that your statesmen for the last forty--for the last +sixty--years are thus guilty, and that they ought to humble themselves +before the people of this country for their neglect. But I have heard +from Members in this House--I have seen much writing in newspapers--and +I have heard of speeches elsewhere, in which some of us, who advocate +what we believe to be a great and high morality in public affairs, are +charged with dislike to the institutions, and even disloyalty to the +dynasty which rules in England. There can be nothing more offensive, +nothing more unjust, nothing more utterly false. We who ask Parliament, +in dealing with Ireland, to deal with it upon the unchangeable +principles of justice, are the friends of the people, and the really +loyal advisers and supporters of the Throne. + +All history teaches us that it is not in human nature that men should be +content under any system of legislation, and of institutions such as +exist in Ireland. You may pass this Bill, you may put the Home +Secretary's five hundred men into gaol--you may do more than this, you +may suppress the conspiracy and put down the insurrection, but the +moment it is suppressed there will still remain the germs of this +malady, and from those germs will grow up as heretofore another crop of +insurrection and another harvest of misfortune. And it may be that those +who sit here eighteen years after this moment will find another Ministry +and another Secretary of State ready to propose to you another +administration of the same ever-failing and ever-poisonous medicine. I +say there is a mode of making Ireland loyal. I say that the Parliament +of England having abolished the Parliament of Ireland is doubly bound to +examine what that mode is, and, if it can discover it, to adopt it. I +say that the Minister who occupies office in this country, merely that +he may carry on the daily routine of administration, who dares not +grapple with this question, who dares not go into Opposition, and who +will sit anywhere except where he can tell his mind freely to the House +and to the country, may have a high position in the country, but he is +not a statesman, nor is he worthy of the name. + +Sir, I shall not oppose the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman. The +circumstances, I presume, are such that the course which is about to be +pursued is perhaps the only merciful course for Ireland. But I suppose +it is not the intention of the Government, in the case of persons who +are arrested, and against whom any just complaint can be made, to do +anything more than that which the ordinary law permits, and that when +men are brought to trial they will be brought to trial with all the +fairness and all the advantages which the ordinary law gives. I should +say what was most unjust to the Gentlemen sitting on that (the Treasury) +bench, if I said aught else than that I believe they are as honestly +disposed to do right in this matter as I am and as I have ever been. I +implore them, if they can, to shake off the trammels of doubt and fear +with regard to this question, and to say something that may be soothing-- +something that may give hope to Ireland. + +I voted the other night with the hon. Member for Tralee (The +O'Donoghue). We were in a very small minority. ['Hear, hear,'] Yes, I +have often been in small minorities. The hon. Gentleman would have been +content with a word of kindness and of sympathy, not for conspiracy, but +for the people of Ireland. That word was not inserted in the Queen's +speech, and to-night the Home Secretary has made a speech urging the +House to the course which, I presume, is about to be pursued; but he did +not in that speech utter a single sentence with regard to a question +which lies behind, and is greater and deeper than that which is +discussed. + +I hope, Sir, that if Ministers feel themselves bound to take this course +of suspending the common rights of personal freedom to a whole nation, +at least they will not allow this debate to close without giving to us +and to that nation some hope that before long measures will be +considered and will be introduced which will tend to create the same +loyalty in Ireland that exists in Great Britain. If every man outside +the walls of this House who has the interest of the whole Empire at +heart were to speak here, what would he say to this House? Let not one +day elapse, let not another Session pass, until you have done something +to wipe off this blot--for blot it is upon the reign of the Queen, and +scandal it is to the civilization and to the justice of the people of +this country. + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +VI. + +DUBLIN, OCTOBER 30, 1866. +[Mr. Bright was invited to a Public Banquet in Dublin. The invitation +was signed by more than twenty Members of Parliament, and by a large +number of influential Members of the Liberal Party in Ireland. This +speech was spoken at the Banquet. The O'Donoghue was in the Chair.] + +I feel myself more embarrassed than I can well describe at the difficult +but honourable position in which I find myself to-night. I am profoundly +moved by the exceeding and generous kindness with which you have +received me, and all I can do is to thank you for it, and to say how +grateful to my heart it is that such a number as I see before me--I will +say of my countrymen--have approved generally of the political course +which I have pursued. But I may assure you that the difficulty of this +position is not at all of my seeking. I heard during the last Session of +Parliament that if I was likely to come to Ireland during the autumn, it +was not improbable that I should be asked to some banquet of this kind +in this city. I had an intention of coming, but being moved by this +kindness or menace, I changed my mind, and spent some weeks in Scotland +instead of Ireland. When I found from the newspapers that an invitation +was being signed, asking me to come here, I wrote to my honourable +friend, Sir John Gray, to ask him if he would be kind enough to put an +extinguisher upon the project, inasmuch as I was not intending to cross +the Channel. He said that the matter had proceeded so far that it was +impossible to interfere with it--that it must take its natural course; +and the result was that I received an invitation signed, I think, by +about one hundred and forty names, amongst whom there were not less, I +believe, than twenty-two Members of the House of Commons. Well, as you +will probably imagine, I felt that this invitation was of such a nature +that, although it was most difficult to accede to it, it was impossible +to refuse it. This accounts for my being here to-night, and is a simple +explanation of what has taken place. + +I said amongst the signatures were the names of not less than twenty-two +Members of the House of Commons. I speak with grief when I say that one +of our friends who signed that invitation is no longer with us. I had +not the pleasure of a long acquaintance with Mr. Dillon, but I shall +take this opportunity of saying that during the last Session of +Parliament I formed a very high opinion of his character. There was that +in his eye and in the tone of his voice--in his manner altogether, which +marked him for an honourable and a just man. I venture to say that his +sad and sudden removal is a great loss to Ireland. I believe amongst all +her worthy sons, Ireland has had no worthier and no nobler son than John +Blake Dillon. + +I shall not be wrong if I assume that the ground of my visit to Dublin +is to be found first in the sympathy which I have always felt and +expressed for the condition, and for the wrongs, and for the rights of +the people of Ireland, and probably also because I am supposed, in some +degree, to represent some amount of the opinion in England, which is +also favourable to the true interests of this island. + +The Irish question is a question that has often been discussed, and yet +it remains at this day as much a question as it has been for centuries +past. The Parliament of Kilkenny,--a Parliament that sat a very long +time ago, if indeed it was a Parliament at all,--it was a Parliament +that sat about five hundred years ago, which proposed, I believe, to +inflict a very heavy penalty if any Irishman's horse was found grazing +on any Englishman's land,--this Parliament left on record a question, +which it may be worth our while to consider to-night. It put this +question to the King, 'How comes it to pass that the King was never the +richer for Ireland?' We, five hundred years afterwards, venture to ask +this question, 'Why is it that the Queen, or the Crown, or the United +Kingdom, or the Empire, is never the richer for Ireland?'--and if you +will permit me I will try to give you as clearly as I can something like +an answer to that very old question. What it may be followed by is this, +How is it that we, the Imperial Parliament, cannot act so as to bring +about in Ireland contentment and tranquillity, and a solid union between +Ireland and Great Britain? And that means, further, How can we improve +the condition and change the minds of the people of Ireland? Some say (I +have heard many who say it in England, and I am afraid there are +Irishmen also who would say it), that there is some radical defect in +the Irish character which prevents the condition of Ireland being so +satisfactory as is the condition of England and of Scotland. Now, I am +inclined to believe that whatever there is that is defective in any +portion of the Irish people comes not from their race, but from their +history, and from the conditions to which they have been subjected. + +I am told by those in authority that in Ireland there is a remarkable +absence of crime. I have heard since I came to Dublin, from those well +acquainted with the facts, that there is probably no great city in the +world--in the civilized and Christian world--of equal population with +the city in which we are now assembled, where there is so little crime +committed. And I find that the portion of the Irish people which has +found a home in the United States has in the period of sixteen years-- +between 1848 and 1864--remitted about 13,000,000_l_. sterling to +their friends and relatives in Ireland. I am bound to place these facts +in opposition to any statements that I hear as to any radical defects of +the Irish character. I say that it would be much more probable that the +defect lies in the Government and in the law. But there are some others +who say that the great misfortune of Ireland is in the existence of the +noxious race of political agitators. Well, as to that I may state, that +the most distinguished political agitators that have appeared during the +last hundred years in Ireland are Grattan and O'Connell, and I should +say that he must be either a very stupid or a very base Irishman who +would wish to erase the achievements of Grattan and O'Connell from the +annals of his country. + +But some say (and this is not an uncommon thing)--some say that the +priests of the popular Church in Ireland have been the cause of much +discontent. I believe there is no class of men in Ireland who have a +deeper interest in a prosperous and numerous community than the priests +of the Catholic Church; and further, I believe that no men have suffered +more--have suffered more, I mean, in mind and in feeling--from +witnessing the miseries and the desolation which during the last century +(to go no further back) have stricken and afflicted the Irish people. + +But some others say that there is no ground of complaint, because the +laws and institutions of Ireland are, in the main, the same as the laws +and institutions of England and Scotland. They say, for example, that if +there be an Established Church in Ireland there is one in England and +one in Scotland, and that Nonconformists are very numerous both in +England and in Scotland; but they seem to forget this fact, that the +Church in England or the Church in Scotland is not in any sense a +foreign Church--that it has not been imposed in past times, and is not +maintained by force--that it is not in any degree the symbol of +conquest--that it is not the Church of a small minority, absorbing the +ecclesiastical revenues and endowments of a whole kingdom; and they omit +to remember or to acknowledge that if any Government attempted to plant +by force the Episcopal Church in Scotland or the Catholic Church in +England, the disorders and discontent which have prevailed in Ireland +would be witnessed with tenfold intensity and violence in Great Britain. +And these persons whom I am describing also say that the land laws in +Ireland are the same as the land laws in England. It would be easy to +show that the land laws in England are bad enough, and that but for the +outlet of the population, afforded by our extraordinary manufacturing +industry, the condition of England would in all probability become quite +as bad as the condition of Ireland has been; but if the countries differ +with regard to land and the management of it in their customs, may it +not be reasonable that they should also differ in their laws? + +In Ireland the landowner is the creature of conquest, not of conquest of +eight hundred years ago, but of conquest completed only two hundred +years ago; and it may be well for us to remember, and for all Englishmen +to remember, that succeeding that transfer of the land to the new-comers +from Great Britain, there followed a system of law, known by the name of +the Penal Code, of the most ingenious cruelty, and such as, I believe, +has never in modern times been inflicted on any Christian people. +Unhappily, on this account, the wound which was opened by the conquest +has never been permitted to be closed, and thus we have had landowners +in Ireland of a different race, of a different religion, and of +different ideas from the great bulk of the people, and there has been a +constant and bitter war between the owners and occupiers of the soil. +Now, up to this point I suppose that oven the gentlemen who were dining +together the other evening in Belfast would probably agree with me, +because what I have stated is mere matter of notorious history, and to +be found in every book which has treated of the course of Irish affairs +during the last two hundred years. But I think they would agree with me +even further than this. They would say that Ireland is a land which has +been torn by religious factions, and torn by these factions at least in +the North as much as in the South; and I think they would be doing less +than justice to the inhabitants of the North if they said that they had +in any degree come short of the people of the South in the intensity of +their passionate feelings with regard to their Church. + +But Ireland has been more than this--it has been a land of evictions--a +word which, I suspect, is scarcely known in any other civilized country. +It is a country from which thousands of families have been driven by the +will of the landowners and the power of the law. It is a country where +have existed, to a great extent, those dread tribunals known by the +common name of secret societies, by which, in pursuit of what some men +have thought to be justice, there have been committed crimes of +appalling guilt in the eye of the whole world. It is a country, too, in +which--and it is the only Christian country of which it may be said for +some centuries past--it is a country in which a famine of the most +desolating character has prevailed even during our own time. I think I +was told in 1849, as I stood in the burial-ground at Skibbereen, that at +least 400 people who had died of famine were buried within the quarter +of an acre of ground on which I was then looking. It is a country, too, +from which there has been a greater emigration by sea within a given +time than has been known at any time from any other country in the +world. It is a country where there has been, for generations past, a +general sense of wrong, out of which has grown a state of chronic +insurrection; and at this very moment when I speak, the general +safeguard of constitutional liberty is withdrawn, and we meet in this +hall, and I speak here tonight, rather by the forbearance and permission +of the Irish executive than under the protection of the common +safeguards of the rights and liberties of the people of the United +Kingdom. + +I venture to say that this is a miserable and a humiliating picture to +draw of this country. Bear in mind that I am not speaking of Poland +suffering under the conquest of Russia. There is a gentleman, now a +candidate for an Irish county, who is very great upon the wrongs of +Poland; but I have found him always in the House of Commons taking sides +with that great party which has systematically supported the wrongs of +Ireland. I am not speaking about Hungary, or of Venice as she was under +the rule of Austria, or of the Greeks under the dominion of the Turk, +but I am speaking of Ireland--part of the United Kingdom--part of that +which boasts itself to be the most civilized and the most Christian +nation in the world. I took the liberty recently, at a meeting in +Glasgow, to say that I believed it was impossible for a class to govern +a great nation wisely and justly. Now, in Ireland there has been a field +in which all the principles of the Tory party have had their complete +experiment and development. You have had the country gentleman in all +his power. You have had any number of Acts of Parliament which the +ancient Parliament of Ireland or the Parliament of the United Kingdom +could give him. You have had the Established Church supported by the +law, even to the extent, not many years ago, of collecting its revenues +by the aid of military force. In point of fact, I believe it would be +impossible to imagine a state of things in which the principles of the +Tory party have had a more entire and complete opportunity for their +trial than they have had within the limits of this island. And yet what +has happened? This, surely. That the kingdom has been continually +weakened--that the harmony of the empire has been disturbed, and that +the mischief has not been confined to the United Kingdom, but has spread +to the Colonies. And at this moment, as we know by every arrival from +the United States, the colony of Canada is exposed to danger of +invasion--that it is forced to keep on foot soldiers which it otherwise +would not want, and to involve itself in expenses which threaten to be +ruinous to its financial condition, and all that it may defend itself +from Irishmen hostile to England who are settled in the United States. + +In fact, the Government of Lord Derby at this moment is doing exactly +that which the Government of Lord North did nearly a hundred years ago-- +it is sending out troops across the Atlantic to fight Irishmen who are +the bitter enemies of England on the American continent. Now, I believe +every gentleman in this room will admit that all that I have said is +literally true. And if it be true, what conclusion are we to come to? Is +it that the law which rules in Ireland is bad, but the people good; or +that the law is good, but the people bad? Now, let us, if we can, get +rid for a moment of Episcopalianism, Presbyterianism, Protestantism, and +Orangeism on the one hand, and of Catholicism, Romanism, and Ultra- +montanism on the other,--let us for a moment get beyond all these +'isms,' and try if we can discover what it is that is the great evil in +your country. I shall ask you only to turn your eye upon two points--the +first is the Established Church, and the second is the tenure of land. +The Church may be said to affect the soul and sentiment of the country, +and the land question may be said to affect the means of life and the +comforts of the people. + +I shall not blame the bishops and clergy of the Established Church. +There may be, and I doubt not there are amongst them, many pious and +devoted men, who labour to the utmost of their power to do good in the +district which is committed to their care; but I venture to say this, +that if they were all good and all pious, it would not in a national +point of view compensate for this one fatal error--the error of their +existence as the ministers of an Established Protestant Church in +Ireland. Every man of them is necessarily in his district a symbol of +the supremacy of the few and of the subjection of the many; and although +the amount of the revenue of the Established Church as the sum payable +by the whole nation may not be considerable, yet bear in mind that it is +often the galling of the chain which is more tormenting than the weight +of it. I believe that the removal of the Established Church would create +a new political and social atmosphere in Ireland--that it would make the +people feel that old things had passed away--that all things had become +new--that an Irishman and his faith were no longer to be condemned in +his own country--and that for the first time the English people and the +English Parliament intended to do full justice to Ireland. + +Now, leaving the Established Church, I come to the question of the land. +I have said that the ownership of the land in Ireland came originally +from conquest and from confiscation, and, as a matter of course, there +was created a great gulf between the owner and the occupier, and from +that time to this doubtless there has been wanting that sympathy which +exists to a large extent in Great Britain, and that ought to exist in +every country. I am told--you can answer it if I am wrong--that it is +not common in Ireland now to give leases to tenants, especially to +Catholic tenants. If that be so, then the security for the property of +the tenant rests only upon the good feeling and favour of the owner of +the land, for the laws, as we know, have been made by the landowners, +and many propositions for the advantage of the tenants have +unfortunately been too little considered by Parliament. The result is +that you have bad farming, bad dwelling-houses, bad temper, and +everything bad connected with the occupation and cultivation of land in +Ireland. One of the results--a result the most appalling--is this, that +your population are fleeing from your country and seeking a refuge in a +distant land. On this point I wish to refer to a letter which I received +a few days ago from a most esteemed citizen of Dublin. He told me that +he believed that a very large portion of what he called the poor, +amongst Irishmen, sympathized with any scheme or any proposition that +was adverse to the Imperial Government. He said further, that the people +here are rather in the country than of it, and that they are looking +more to America than they are looking to England. I think there is a +good deal in that. When we consider how many Irishmen have found a +refuge in America, I do not know how we can wonder at that statement. + +You will recollect that when the ancient Hebrew prophet prayed in his +captivity he prayed with his window opened towards Jerusalem. You know +that the followers of Mahommed, when they pray, turn their faces towards +Mecca. When the Irish peasant asks for food, and freedom, and blessing, +his eye follows the setting sun; the aspirations of his heart reach +beyond the wide Atlantic, and in spirit he grasps hands with the great +Republic of the West. If this be so, I say, then, that the disease is +not only serious, but it is even desperate; but desperate as it is, I +believe there is a certain remedy for it, if the people and the +Parliament of the United Kingdom are willing to apply it. Now, if it +were possible, would it not be worth while to change the sentiments and +improve the condition of the Irish cultivators of the soil? If we were +to remove the State Church, there would still be a Church, but it would +not be a supremacy Church. The Catholics of Ireland have no idea of +saying that Protestantism in its various forms shall not exist in their +island. There would still be a Church, but it would be a free Church of +a section of a free people. I will not go into details about the change. +Doubtless every man would say that the present occupants of the livings +should not, during their lifetime, be disturbed; but if the principle of +the abolition of the State Church were once fixed and accepted, it would +not be difficult to arrange the details that would be satisfactory to +the people of Ireland. + +Who objects to this? The men who are in favour of supremacy, and the men +who have a fanatical hatred of what they call Popery. To honest and good +men of the Protestant Church and of the Protestant faith there is no +reason whatever to fear this change. What has the voluntary system done +in Scotland? What has it done amongst the Nonconformists of England? +What has it done amongst the population of Wales? and what has it done +amongst the Catholic population of your own Ireland? In my opinion, the +abolition of the Established Church would give Protestantism itself +another chance. I believe there has been in Ireland no other enemy of +Protestantism so injurious as the Protestant State Establishment. It has +been loaded for two hundred years with the sins of bad government and +bad laws, and whatever may have been the beauty and the holiness of its +doctrine or of its professors, it has not been able to hold its ground, +loaded as it has been by the sins of a bad government. One effect of the +Established Church has been this, the making Catholicism in Ireland not +only a faith but a patriotism, for it was not likely that any member of +the Catholic Church would incline in the slightest degree to +Protestantism so long as it presented itself to his eyes as a wrong-doer +and full of injustice in connection with the government of his country. + +But if honest Protestantism has nothing to fear from the changes that I +would recommend, what has the honest landowner to fear? The history of +Europe and America for the last one hundred years affords scarcely any +picture more painful than that which is afforded by the landowners of +this kingdom. The Irish landowner has been different from every other +landowner, for the bulk of his land has only been about half cultivated, +and he has had to collect his rents by a process approaching the evils +of civil war. His property has been very insecure--the sale of it +sometimes has been rendered impossible. The landowner himself has often +been hated by those who ought to have loved him. He has been banished +from his ancestral home by terror, and not a few have lost their lives +without the sympathy of those who ought to have been their protectors +and their friends. I would like to ask, what can be much worse than +this? If in this country fifty years ago, as in Prussia, there had +arisen statesmen who would have taken one-third or one-half the land +from the landowners of Ireland, and made it over to their tenants, I +believe that the Irish landowner, great as would have been the injustice +of which he might have complained, would in all probability have been +richer and happier than he has been. + +What is the first remedy which you would propose? Clearly this--that +which is the most easily applicable and which would most speedily touch +the condition of the country. It is this--that the property which the +tenant shall invest or create in his farm shall be secured to the tenant +by law. I believe that if Parliament were fairly to enact this it would +make a change in the whole temper of the country. I recollect in the +year 1849 being down in the county of Wexford. I called at the house of +an old farmer of the name of Stafford, who lived in a very good house, +the best farm-house, I think, that I had seen since leaving Dublin. He +lived on his own farm, which he had bought fifteen years before. The +house was a house which he had himself built. He was a venerable old +man, and we had some very interesting conversation with him. I asked how +it was he had so good a house? He said the farm was his own, and the +house was his own, and, as no man could disturb him, he had made it a +much better house than was common for the farmers of Ireland. I said to +him, 'If all the farmers of Ireland had the same security for the +capital they laid out on their farms, what would be the result?' The old +man almost sprang out of his chair, and said, 'Sir, if you will give us +that encouragement, we will _bate_ the hunger out of Ireland.' It +is said that all this must be left to contract between the landlord and +the tenant; but the public, which may be neither landlord nor tenant, +has a great interest in this question; and I maintain that the interests +of the public require that Parliament should secure to the tenant the +property which he has invested in his farm. But I would not stop here. + +There is another, and what I should call a more permanent and far- +reaching remedy for the evils of Ireland, and those persons who stickle +so much for political economy I hope will follow me in this. The great +evil of Ireland is this--that the Irish people--the Irish nation--are +dispossessed of the soil, and what we ought to do is to provide for, and +aid in, their restoration to it by all measures of justice. Why should +we tolerate in Ireland the law of primogeniture? Why should we tolerate +the system of entails? Why should the object of the law be to accumulate +land in great masses in few hands, and to make it almost impossible for +persons of small means, and tenant-farmers, to become possessors of +land? If you go to other countries--for example, to Norway, to Denmark, +to Holland, to Belgium, to France, to Germany, to Italy, or to the +United States, you will find that in all these countries those laws of +which I complain have been abolished, and the land is just as free to +buy and sell, and hold and cultivate, as any other description of +property in the kingdom. No doubt your Landed Estates Court and your +Record of Titles Act were good measures, but they were good because they +were in the direction that I want to travel farther in. + +But I would go farther than that; I would deal with the question of +absenteeism. I am not going to propose to tax absentees; but if my +advice were taken, we should have a Parliamentary Commission empowered +to buy up the large estates in Ireland belonging to the English +nobility, for the purpose of selling them on easy terms to the occupiers +of the farms and to the tenantry of Ireland. Now, let me be fairly +understood. I am not proposing to tax absentees; I am not proposing to +take any of their property from them; but I propose this, that a +Parliamentary Commission should be empowered to treat for the purchase +of those large estates with a view of selling them to the tenantry of +Ireland. Now, here are some of them--the present Prime Minister Lord +Derby, Lord Lansdowne, Lord Fitzwilliam, the Marquis of Hertford, the +Marquis of Bath, the Duke of Bedford, the Duke of Devonshire, and many +others. They have estates in Ireland; many of them, I dare say, are just +as well managed as any other estates in the country; but what you want +is to restore to Ireland a middle-class proprietary of the soil; and I +venture to say that if these estates could be purchased and could be +sold out farm by farm to the tenant occupiers in Ireland, that it would +be infinitely better in a conservative sense, than that they should +belong to great proprietors living out of the country. + +I have said that the disease is desperate, and that the remedy must be +searching. I assert that the present system of government with regard to +the Church and with regard to the land has failed disastrously in +Ireland. Under it Ireland has become an object of commiseration to the +whole world, and a discredit to the United Kingdom, of which it forms a +part. It is a land of many sorrows. Men fight for supremacy, and call it +Protestantism; they fight for evil and bad laws, and they call it acting +for the defence of property. Now, are there no good men in Ireland of +those who are generally opposed to us in politics--are there none who +can rise above the level of party? If there be such, I wish my voice +might reach them. I have often asked myself whether patriotism is dead +in Ireland. Cannot all the people of Ireland see that the calamities of +their country are the creatures of the law, and if that be so, that just +laws only can remove these calamities? + +If Irishmen were united--if your 105 Members were for the most part +agreed, you might do almost anything that you liked--you might do it +even in the present Parliament; but if you are disunited, then I know +not how you can gain anything from a Parliament created as the Imperial +Parliament is now. The classes who rule in Britain will hear your cry as +they have heard it before, and will pay no attention to it. They will +see your people leaving your shores, and they will think it no calamity +to the country. They know that they have force to suppress insurrection, +and, therefore, you can gain nothing from their fears. What, then, is +your hope? It is in a better Parliament, representing fairly the United +Kingdom--the movement which is now in force in England and Scotland, and +which is your movement as much as ours. If there were 100 more Members, +the representatives of large and free constituencies, then your cry +would be heard, and the people would give you that justice which a class +has so long denied you. The great party that is now in power--the Tory +party--denies that you have any just cause of complaint. + +In a speech delivered the other day in Belfast, much was said of the +enforcement of the law; but there was nothing said about any change or +amendment in the law. With this party terror is their only specific,-- +they have no confidence in allegiance except where there is no power to +rebel. Now, I differ from these men entirely. I believe that at the root +of a general discontent there is in all countries a general grievance +and general suffering. The surface of society is not incessantly +disturbed without a cause. I recollect in the poem of the greatest of +Italian poets, he tells us that as he saw in vision the Stygian lake, +and stood upon its banks, he observed the constant commotion upon the +surface of the pool, and his good instructor and guide explained to him +the cause of it-- + + 'This, too, for certain know, that underneath + The water dwells a multitude, whose sighs + Into these bubbles make the surface heave, + As thine eye tells thee wheresoe'er it turn.' + +And I say in Ireland for generations back, that the misery and the +wrongs of the people have made their sign, and have found a voice in +constant insurrection and disorder. I have said that Ireland is a +country of many wrongs and of many sorrows. Her past lies almost all in +shadow. Her present is full of anxiety and peril. Her future depends on +the power of her people to substitute equality and justice for +supremacy, and a generous patriotism for the spirit of faction. In the +effort now making in Great Britain to create a free representation of +the people you have the deepest interest. The people never wish to +suffer, and they never wish to inflict injustice. They have no sympathy +with the wrong-doer, whether in Great Britain or in Ireland; and when +they are fairly represented in the Imperial Parliament, as I hope they +will one day be, they will speedily give an effective and final answer +to that old question of the Parliament of Kilkenny--'How comes it to +pass that the King has never been the richer for Ireland?' + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +VII. + +DUBLIN, NOVEMBER 2, 1866. + +[This speech was spoken at a public meeting held in Dublin, at which an +Address from the Trades was presented to Mr. Bright. James Haughton, +Esq., was in the Chair.] + +When I came to your city I was asked if I would attend a public meeting +on the question of Parliamentary Reform. I answered that I was not in +good order for much speaking, for I have suffered, as I am afraid you +will find before I come to the end of my speech, from much cold and +hoarseness; but it was urged upon me that there were at least some, and +not an inconsiderable number, of the working men of this city who would +be glad if I would meet them; and it was proposed to offer me some +address of friendship and confidence such as that which has been read. I +have no complaint to make of it but this, that whilst I do not say it +indicates too much kindness, yet that it colours too highly the small +services which I have been able to render to any portion of my +countrymen. Your countrymen are reckoned generally to be a people of +great gratitude and of much enthusiasm, and, therefore, I accept the +Address with all the kindness and feelings of friendship with which it +has been offered, and I hope it will be, at least in some degree, a +stimulant to me, in whatever position of life I am placed, to remember, +as I have ever in past times remembered, the claims of the people of +this island to complete and equal justice with the people of Great +Britain. + +Now, there may be persons in this room, I should be surprised if there +were not, who doubt whether it is worth their while even to hope for +substantial justice, as this address says, from a Parliament sitting in +London. If there be such a man in this room let him understand that I am +not the man to condemn him or to express surprise at the opinion at +which he has arrived. But I would ask him in return for that, that he +would give me at least for a few minutes a patient hearing, and he will +find that, whether justice may come from the north or the south, or the +east or the west, I, at any rate, stand as a friend of the most complete +justice to the people of this island. When discussing the question of +Parliamentary Reform, I have often heard it asserted that the people of +Ireland, and I am not speaking of those who are hopeless of good from a +Parliament in London, but that the people of Ireland generally imagine +that the question of Parliamentary Reform has very little importance for +them. Now I undertake to say, and I think I can make it clear to this +meeting, that whatever be the importance of that question to any man in +England or Scotland, if the two islands are to continue under Imperial +Parliamentary Government, it is of more importance to every Irishman. +You know that the Parliament of which I am a Member contains 658 +Members, of whom 105 cross the Channel from Ireland, and when they go to +London they meet--supposing all the Members of the House of Commons are +gathered together--553 Members who are returned for Great Britain. Now, +suppose that all your 105 Members were absolutely good and honourable +representatives of the people of Ireland--I will not say Tories, or +Whigs, or Radicals, or Repealers, but anything you like,--let every man +imagine that all these Members were exactly the sort of men he would +wish to go from Ireland,--when the 105 arrive in London they meet with +the 553 who are returned from Great Britain. Now, suppose that the +system of Parliamentary representation in Great Britain is very bad, +that it represents very few persons in that great island, and that those +who appear to be represented are distributed in the small boroughs over +different parts of the country, and in the counties under the thumb and +finger of the landlords, it is clear that the whole Parliament, although +your 105 Members may be very good men, must still be a very bad +Parliament. Therefore, if any man imagines--and I should think no man +can imagine--that the representation of the people in Ireland is in a +very good state--still, if he fancies it is in a good state--unless the +representation of Great Britain were at least equally good, you might +have a hundred excellent Irish Members in Parliament at Westminster; but +the whole 658 Members might be a very bad Parliament for the United +Kingdom. + +The Member for a borough or a county in Ireland, when he goes to London, +votes for measures for the whole kingdom; and a Member for Lancashire or +for Warwickshire, or for any other county or borough in Great Britain, +votes for measures not only for Great Britain but also for Ireland, and +therefore, all parts of the United Kingdom--every county, every borough, +every parish, every family, every man--has a clear and distinct and +undoubted interest in a Parliament that shall fairly and justly +represent the whole nation. Now, look for a moment at two or three facts +with regard to Ireland alone. I have stated some facts with regard to +England and Scotland at recent meetings held across the Channel. + +Now for two or three facts with regard to Ireland. In Ireland you have +five boroughs returning each one Member, the average number of electors +in each of these boroughs being only 172. You have 13 boroughs, the +average number being 316. You have 9 other boroughs with an average +number of electors of 497. You have, therefore, 27 boroughs whose whole +number of electors, if they were all put together, is only 9,453, or an +average of 350 electors for each Member. I must tell you further that +you have a single county with nearly twice as many voters as the whole +of those 27 boroughs. Your 27 boroughs have only 9,453 electors, and the +county of Cork has 16,107 electors, and returns but two Members. But +that is not the worst of the case. It happens both in Great Britain and +Ireland, wherever the borough constituencies are so small, that it is +almost impossible that they should be independent; a very acute lawyer, +for example, in one of those boroughs--a very influential clergyman, +whether of your Church or ours--when I say ours, I do not mean mine, but +the Church of England--half-a-dozen men combining together, or a little +corruption from candidates going with a well-filled purse,--these are +the influences brought to bear upon those small boroughs both in England +and Ireland. A great many of them return their Members by means of +corruption, more or less, and a free and real representation of the +people is hardly ever possible in a borough of that small size. + +But if I were to compare your boroughs with your counties, see how it +stands. You have thirty-nine borough Members, with 30,000 electors, and +you have sixty-four county Members, with 172,000 electors. Therefore you +see that the Members are so distributed that the great populations have +not one quarter of the influence in Parliament which those small +populations in the small boroughs have. We come next to another question +which is of great consequence. Not only are those small boroughs +altogether too email for independence, but if we come to your large +county constituencies, we find that from the peculiar circumstances and +the relations which exist between the voter and the owner of the land, +there is scarcely any freedom of election. Even in your counties I +should suppose that if there was no compulsion from the landowners or +their agents, that in at least three-fourths of this island the vote of +the county electors would be by a vast majority in favour of the Liberal +candidates. I am not speaking merely of men who profess a sort of +liberality which just enables them to go with their party, but I speak +of men who would be thoroughly in earnest in sustaining, as far as they +were able, in Parliament, the opinions which they were sent to represent +by the large constituencies who elected them. + +The question of the ballot is, in my opinion, of the greatest importance +in Great Britain and Ireland, but is of more importance in the counties +than it is in the large boroughs. For example: in Great Britain, in such +boroughs as Edinburgh and Glasgow, and Manchester and Birmingham, and +the metropolitan boroughs, where the number of electors runs from 10,000 +to 25,000, bribery is of no avail, because you could not bribe thousands +of men. To bribe 100 or 200 would not alter the return at an election +with so large a constituency. But what you want with the ballot is, that +in the counties where the tenant-farmers vote, and where they live upon +their land without the security of a lease, or without the security of +any law to give them compensation for any improvements they may have +made upon the land, the tenant-farmer feels himself always liable to +injury, and sometimes to ruin, if he gets into a dispute with the agent +or the landowner with regard to the manner in which he has exercised his +franchise. And what will be very important also, if you have the ballot, +your elections will be tranquil, without disorder and without riot. Last +week, or the week before, there was an election in one of your great +counties. Well, making every allowance that can be made for the +exaggerations circulated by the writers of the two parties, it is quite +clear to everybody that the circumstances of that election, though not +absolutely uncommon in Ireland, were still such as to be utterly +discreditable to a real representative system. And you must bear in mind +that there is no other people in the world that considers that it has a +fair representative system unless it has the ballot. The ballot is +universal almost in the United States. It is almost universal in the +colonies, at any rate in the Australian colonies; it is almost universal +on the continent of Europe, and in the new Parliament of North Germany, +which is about soon to be assembled, every man of twenty-five years of +age is to be allowed to vote, and to vote by ballot. + +Now, I hold, without any fear of contradiction, that the intelligence +and the virtues of the people of Ireland are not represented in the +Parliament. You have your wrongs to complain of--wrongs centuries old, +and wrongs that long ago the people of Ireland, and, I venture to say, +the people of Great Britain united with Ireland----My friend up there +will not listen to the end of my sentence. I say that the people of +Great Britain, acting with the people of Ireland, in a fair +representation of the whole, would long ago have remedied every just +grievance of which you could complain. + +I will take two questions which I treated upon the other evening. I will +ask about one question--that is, the question of the supremacy of the +Church in Ireland. Half the people in England are Nonconformists. They +are not in favour of an Established Church anywhere, and it is utterly +impossible that they could be in favour of an Established Church in an +island like this--an Established Church formed of a mere handful of the +population, in opposition to the wishes of the nation. Now take the +Principality of Wales. I suppose that four out of five of the population +there are Dissenters, and they are not in favour of maintaining a +religious Protestant Establishment in Ireland. The people of Scotland +have also seceded in such large numbers from their Established Church, +although of a democratic character, that I suppose those who have +seceded are a considerable majority of the whole people--they are not in +favour of maintaining an ecclesiastical Establishment in Ireland in +opposition to the views of the great majority of your people. Take the +other question--that of land. There is nobody in Great Britain of the +great town population, or of the middle class, or of the still more +numerous working class, who has any sympathy with that condition of the +law and of the administration of the law which has worked such mischiefs +in your country. But these Nonconformists, whether in England, Wales, or +Scotland, these great middle classes, and still greater working classes, +are in the position that you are. Only sixteen of every hundred have a +vote, and those sixteen are so arranged that when their representatives +get to Parliament they turn out for the most part to be no real +representatives of the people. + +I will tell you fairly that you, as the less populous and less powerful +part of this great nation--you of all the men in the United Kingdom, +have by far the strongest interest in a thorough reform of the Imperial +Parliament, and I believe that you yourselves could not do yourselves +such complete justice by yourselves as you can do, by fairly acting with +the generous millions of my countrymen in whose name I stand here. You +have on this platform two members of the Reform League from London. I +received yesterday, or the day before, a telegram from the Scottish +Reform League, from Glasgow. I am not sure whether there is a copy of it +in any of the newspapers, but it was sent to me, and I presume it was +sent to me that I might read it, if I had the opportunity of meeting any +of the unenfranchised men of this city. It says:--'The Scottish Reform +League request you to convey to the Reformers in Ireland their deep +sympathy. They sincerely hope that soon in Ireland, as in Scotland and +England, Reform Leagues may be formed in every town to secure to the +people their political rights. Urge upon our friends in Ireland their +duty to promote this great movement, and to secure at home those +benefits which thousands of their fellow-countrymen are forced to seek +in other lands--where land and State Church grievances are unknown. We +also seek cooperation, knowing that our freedom, though secure tomorrow, +would not be safe so long as one portion of the United Kingdom were less +free than the other portions.' There is the outspoken voice of the +representatives of that great multitude that only a fortnight since I +saw passing through the streets of Glasgow. For three hours the +procession passed, with all the emblems and symbols of their various +trades, and the streets for two or three miles were enlivened by +banners, and the air was filled with the sounds of music from their +bands. Those men but spoke the same language that was heard in the West +Riding, in Manchester, in Birmingham, and in London; and you men of +Dublin, and of Ireland, you never made a mistake more grievous in your +lives than when you come to the conclusion that there are not millions +of men in Great Britain willing to do you full justice. + +I am very sorry that my voice is not what it was, and when I think of +the work that is to be done sometimes I feel it is a pity we grow old so +fast. But years ago, when I have thought of the condition of Ireland, of +its sorrows and wrongs, of the discredit that its condition has brought +upon the English, the Irish, and the British name, I have thought, if I +could be in all other things the same, but by birth an Irishman, there +is not a town in this island I would not visit for the purpose of +discussing the great Irish question, and of rousing my countrymen to +some great and united action. + +I do not believe in the necessity of wide-spread and perpetual misery. I +do not believe that we are placed on this island, and on this earth, +that one man may be great and wealthy, and revel in every profuse +indulgence, and five, six, nine, or ten men shall suffer the abject +misery which we see so commonly in the world. With your soil, your +climate, and your active and spirited race, I know not what you might +not do. There have been reasons to my mind why soil and climate, and the +labour of your population, have not produced general comfort and +competence for all. + +The Address speaks of the friendly feeling and the sympathy which I have +had for Ireland during my political career. When I first went into the +House of Commons the most prominent figure in it was Daniel O'Connell. I +have sat by his side for hours in that House, and listened to +observations both amusing and instructive on what was passing under +discussion. I have seen him, too, more than once upon the platforms of +the Anti-Corn-law League. I recollect that on one occasion he sent to +Ireland expressly for a newspaper for me, which contained a report of a +speech which he made against the Corn-law when the Corn-law was passing +through Parliament in 1815, and we owe much to his exertions in +connection with that question, for almost the whole Liberal--I suppose +the whole Liberal--party of the Irish representatives in Parliament +supported the measure of free trade of which we were the prominent +advocates; and I know of nothing that was favourable to freedom, whether +in connection with Ireland or England, that O'Connell did not support +with all his great powers. Why is it, now, that there should be any kind +of schism between the Liberal people of Ireland and the Liberal people +of Great Britain? I do not ask you to join hands with supremacy and +oppression, whether in your island or ours. What I ask you is, to open +your heart of hearts, and join hands for a real and thorough working +union for freedom with the people of Great Britain. + +Before I sit down, I must be allowed to advert to a point which has been +much commented upon--a sentence in my speech made the other night with +regard to the land. There are newspapers in Dublin which I need not +name, because I am quite sure you can find them out--which do not feel +any strong desire to judge fairly anything I may propose for the +pacification and redemption of the people of Ireland. It was this I +said: 'It is of the first importance that the people of Ireland, by some +process or other, should have the opportunity of being made the +possessors of their own soil.' You will know perfectly well that I am +not about to propose a copy of the villainous crimes of two hundred +years ago, to confiscate the lands of the proprietors, here or +elsewhere. I propose to introduce a system which would gradually, no +doubt rapidly and easily, without injuring anybody, make many thousands +who are now tenant-farmers, without lease and security, the owners of +their farms in this island. This is my plan, and I want to restate it +with a little further explanation, in order that these gentlemen to whom +I have referred may not repeat the very untrue, and I may say +dishonourable comments which they have made upon me. + +There are many large estates in Ireland which belong to rich families in +England,--families not only of the highest rank, but of the highest +character,--because I will venture to say there are not to be found +amongst the English nobility families of more perfect honourableness and +worth than some of those to whom my plan would be offered; and, +therefore, I am not speaking against the aristocracy, against those +families, or against property, or against anybody, or against anything +that is good. I say, that if Parliament were to appoint a Commission, +and give it, say, at first up to the amount of five millions sterling, +the power to negotiate or treat with those great families in England who +have estates in Ireland, it is probable that some of those great estates +might be bought at a not very unreasonable price. I am of opinion that +this would be the cheapest money that the Imperial Parliament ever +expended, even though it became possessed of those estates at a price +considerably above the market price. But I propose it should be worked +in this way. I will take a case. I will assume that this Commission is +in possession of a considerable estate bought from some present owner of +it. I will take one farm, which I will assume to be worth +1,000_l_., for which the present tenant is paying a rent of +50_l_. a-year. He has no lease. He has no security. He makes almost +no improvement of any kind; and he is not quite sure whether, when he +has saved a little more money, he will not take his family off to the +United States. Now we will assume ourselves, if you like, to be that +Commission, and that we have before us the farmer who is the tenant on +that particular farm, for which he pays 50_l_. a year, without +lease or security, and which I assume to be worth 1,000_l_. The +Government, I believe, lends money to Irish landowners for drainage +purposes at about 3-1/2 per cent. per annum. Suppose the Government were +to say to this farmer, 'You would not have any objection to become +possessed of this farm?' 'No, not the slightest,' he might answer, 'but +how is that to be done?' In this way;--You may pay 50_l_. a-year, +that is, 5 per cent. on one thousand pounds; the Government can afford +to do these transactions for 3-1/2 per cent.; if you will pay +60_l_. a-year for a given number of years, which any of the +actuaries of the insurance offices or any good arithmetician may soon +calculate,--if you will pay 60_l_. for your rent, instead of +50_l_., it may be for perhaps twenty years,--at the end of that +time the farm will be yours, without any further payment. + +I want you to understand how this is. If the farmer paid ten pounds a- +year more than he now pays, towards buying his farm, and if the +1,000_l_. the Government would pay for the farm would not cost the +Government more than 35_l_., the difference between 35_l_. and +60_l_. being 25_l_., would be the sum which that farmer, in +his rent, would be paying to the Commission, that is, to the Government, +for the redemption of his farm. Thus, at the end of a very few years, +the farmer would possess his own farm, having a perfect security in the +meantime. Nobody could turn him out if he paid his rent, and nobody +could rob him for any improvement he made on his land. The next morning +after he made that agreement, he would explain it to his wife and to his +big boy, who had perhaps been idling about for a long time, and there +would not be a stone on the land that would not be removed, not a weed +that he would not pull up, not a particle of manure that he would not +save; everything would be done with a zeal and an enthusiasm which he +had never known before; and by the time the few years had run on when +the farm should become his without any further purchase, he would have +turned a dilapidated, miserable little farm into a garden for himself +and family. Now, this statement may be commented on by some of the +newspapers. You will understand that I do not propose a forced purchase, +or any confiscation. I would undertake even to give--if I were the +Government--to every one of these landlords twenty per cent more for his +estate than it will fetch in the market in London or in Dublin, and I +say that to do this would produce a marvellous change in the sentiments +of the people, and in the condition of agriculture in Ireland. + +But I saw in one of the papers a question to which I may give a reply. +It was said, How would you like to have a Commission come down into +Lancashire and insist on buying your factories? I can only say that if +they will give me 20 per cent, or 10 per cent, more than they are worth, +they shall have them to-morrow. But I do not propose that the Commission +should come here and insist on buying these estates. They say, further, +Why should a man in Ireland keep his estate, and not a man in England +who has an estate in Ireland? There is this difference. A man in +Ireland, if he has an estate of 10,000 acres, has in it probably his +ancestral home. He has ties to this which it would be monstrous to think +of severing in such a manner. But a man living in England, who is not an +Irishman, and who never comes over here except to receive his rents +(which, in fact, he generally receives through his bankers in London), +who has no particular tie to this country, and who comes over here +occasionally merely because he feels that, as a great proprietor in +Ireland, it would be scandalous never to show his face on his property +and amongst his tenants--to such a man there would be no hardship if he +should part with his land at a fair price. + +I have been charged with saying severe things of the English +aristocracy. Now, this is not true in the sense in which it is imputed +to me. I have always said that there are many men in the English +aristocracy who would be noblemen in the sight of their fellow-men +although they had no titles and no coronets. There are men amongst them +of as undoubted patriotism as any man in this building, or in this +island, and there are men amongst them, who when they saw that a great +public object was to be gained for the benefit of their fellow-men, +would make as great sacrifices as any one of us would be willing to do. +I am of opinion therefore--I may be wrong, but I will not believe it +until it is proved--I am of opinion that if this question were discussed +in Parliament when next the Irish land question is discussed, and if +there was a general sentiment in the House of Commons that some measure +like this would be advantageous for Ireland,--and if it were so +expressed, it may be assumed that it would be accepted to a large extent +by the people of the United Kingdom,--then I think that a Commission so +appointed would find no difficulty whatever in discovering noblemen and +rich men in England, who are the possessors of great estates in Ireland, +who would be willing to negotiate for their transfer, and that +Commission, by the process I have indicated, might transfer them +gradually but speedily to the tenant-farmers of this country. + +I am told that I have not been much in Ireland, and do not know much of +it. I recollect a man in England during the American war asking me a +question about America. When I gave him an answer which did not agree +with his opinion, he said, 'I think you have never been in America, have +you?' I said I had not; and he replied, 'Well, I have been there three +times, and I know something of them.' He was asking me whether I thought +the Yankees would pay when they borrowed money to carry on the war; and +I thought they would. But, as he had been there, he thought his opinion +was worth more than mine. I told him I knew several people who had lived +in England all their lives and yet knew very little about England. I am +told that if I were to live in Ireland, amongst the people I should have +a different opinion; that I should think the State Church of a small +minority was honest, in the face of the great Church of the majority; +that I should think it was not the fault of the landowners or of the law +in any degree, but the fault of the tenants, that everything went wrong +with regard to the land; and that I should find that it was the +Government that was mostly right, and the legislation right, and that it +was the people that were mostly wrong. There are certain questions with +regard to any country that you may settle in your own house, never +having seen that country even upon a map. This you may settle, that what +is just is just everywhere, and that men, from those of the highest +culture even to those of the most moderate capacity, whatever may be +their race, whatever their colour, have implanted in their hearts by +their Creator, wiser much than my critics, the knowledge and the love of +justice. I will tell you that, since the day when I sat beside +O'Connell--and at an earlier day--I have considered this question of +Ireland. In 1849, for several weeks in the autumn, and for several weeks +in the autumn of 1852, I came to Ireland expressly to examine this +question by consulting with all classes of the people in every part of +the island. I will undertake to say that I believe there is no man in +England who has more fully studied the evidence given before the +celebrated Devon Commission in regard to Ireland than I have. Therefore +I dare stand up before any Irishman or Englishman to discuss the Irish +question. I say that the plans, the theories, the policy, the +legislation of my opponents in this matter all have failed signally, +deplorably, disastrously, ignominiously, and, therefore, I say that I +have a right to come in and offer the people of Ireland, as I would +offer to the people of Great Britain and the Imperial Parliament, a wise +and just policy upon this question. + +You know that I have attended great meetings in England within the last +two months, and in Scotland also. I think I am at liberty to tender to +you from those hundreds of thousands of men the hand of fellowship and +goodwill. I wish I might be permitted when I go back, as in fact I think +by this Address that I am permitted to say to them, that amidst the +factions by which Ireland has been torn, amidst the many errors that +have been committed, amidst the passions that have been excited, amidst +the hopes that have been blasted, and amidst the misery that has been +endured, there is still in this island, and amongst its people, a heart +that can sympathise with those who turn to them with a fixed resolution +to judge them fairly, and to do them justice. + +I have made my speech. I have said my say. I have fulfilled my small +mission to you. I thank you from my heart for the kindness with which +you have received me, which I shall never forget. And if I have in past +times felt an unquenchable sympathy with the sufferings of your people, +you may rely upon it that if there be an Irish Member to speak for +Ireland, he will find me heartily by his side. + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +VIII. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 14, 1868. + +_From Hansard_. + +[This speech was spoken on the occasion of a proposition by Mr. +Maguire, M.P. for Cork, for 'a Committee of the whole House to consider +the state of Ireland.'] + +When this debate began it was not my intention to take any part in it; +for I had very lately, in another place and to a larger audience, added +my contribution to the great national deliberation upon Irish affairs +which is now in progress. But the speech of the noble Lord the Chief +Secretary for Ireland, and some misunderstanding that has arisen of what +I said elsewhere, have changed my intention, and therefore I have to ask +for the indulgence of the House, in the hope that I may make on this +question a more practical speech than that to which we have just +listened. + +It is said by eminent censors of the press that this debate will yield +about thirty hours of talk, and will end in no result. I have observed +that all great questions in this country require thirty hours of talk +many times repeated before they are settled. There is much shower and +much sunshine between the sowing of the seed and the reaping of the +harvest, but the harvest is generally reaped after all. + +I was very much struck with what happened on the first night of the +debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Cork, in the opening portion of +his address, described the state of Ireland from his point of view, and +the facts he stated are not and cannot be disputed. He said that the +Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended for three years in his country-- +that within the island there was a large military force, amounting, as +we have heard to-night--besides 12,000 or more of armed police--to an +army of 20,000 men--that in the harbours of Ireland there were ships of +war, and in her rivers there were gunboats; and that throughout that +country--as throughout this--there has been and is yet considerable +alarm with regard to the discontent prevalent in Ireland. + +All that is quite true; but when the noble Lord the Chief Secretary +opened his speech, the first portion of it was of a very different +complexion. I am willing to admit that to a large extent it was equally +true. He told us that the condition of the people of Ireland was +considerably better now than it was at the time of the Devon Commission. +At the time of the Devon Commission the condition of that country had no +parallel in any civilised and Christian nation. By the force of famine, +pestilence, and emigration, the population was greatly diminished, and +it would be a very extraordinary thing indeed if with such a diminution +of the population there was no improvement in the condition of those who +remained behind. He showed that wages are higher, and he pointed to the +fact that in the trade in and out of the Irish ports they had a +considerable increase, and though I will not say that some of those +comparisons were quite accurate or fair, I am on the whole ready to +admit the truth of the statement the noble Lord made. But now it seems +to me that, admitting the truth of what my hon. Friend the Member for +Cork said, and admitting equally the truth of what the noble Lord said, +there remains before us a question even more grave than any we have had +to discuss in past years with regard to the condition of Ireland. + +If--and this has been already referred to by more than one speaker--if +it be true that with a considerable improvement in the physical +condition of the people--if it be true that with a universality of +education much beyond that which exists in this island--if it be true +that after the measures that have been passed, and have been useful, +there still remains in Ireland, first of all, what is called Fenianism, +which is a reckless and daring exhibition of feeling--beyond that a very +wide discontent and disloyalty--and beyond that, amongst the whole of +the Roman Catholic population, universal dissatisfaction--and if that be +so, surely my hon. Friend the Member for Cork--one of the most useful +and eminent of the representatives of Ireland--is right in bringing this +question before the House. And there is no question at this moment that +we could possibly discuss connected with the interest or honour of the +people that approaches in gravity and magnitude to that now before us. +And if this state of things be true--and remember I have said nothing +but what the hon. Member for Cork has said, and I have given my approval +to nothing he has said that was not confirmed by the speech of the noble +Lord--if this be true, surely all this great effect must have some +cause. + +We are unworthy of our position as Members of this House, and +representatives of our countrymen, if we do not endeavour at least to +discover the cause, and if we can discover it, speedily to apply a +remedy. The cause is perfectly well known to both sides of the House. +The noble Lord, it is clear, knows it even from the tenor of his own +speech--he spoke of the question of the land, and of the Church. The +noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn--whose observations in this +debate, if he had offered them, we should have been glad to listen to-- +understands it, for he referred to the two questions in his speech at +the Bristol banquet. The right hon. Gentleman at the head of the +Government understands it not only as well as I do, but he understands +it precisely in the same sense--and more than twenty years ago, when I +stated in this House the things, or nearly the things, I stated recently +and shall state to-night, he, from your own benches, was making speeches +exactly of the same import. And though there is many a thing he seems at +times not to recollect, yet I am bound to say he recollects these words, +and the impressions, of which these words were the expressions to the +House. He referred to an absentee aristocracy and an alien Church. I +would not say a syllable about the aristocracy in this matter; if I had +to choose a phrase, I would rather say an absentee proprietary and an +alien Church. + +What is the obvious remedy which for this state of things has been found +to be sufficient in every other country? If I could do so by any means +that did not violate the rights of property, I should be happy to give +to a considerable portion of the farmers of Ireland some proprietary +rights, and to remove from that country the sense of injustice, and the +sense--the strongest of all--of the injustice caused by the existence of +an alien Church. Just for a moment look at the proposition the noble +Lord is about to submit to the House. It is very like the Bill of last +year. I will not enter into the details, except to say that he proposes, +as he proposed then, that the Government should lend the tenant-farmers +of Ireland sums of money, by which they would make improvements, which +sums of money were to be repaid by some gradual process to the +Government authorities. He proposes that the repayment should be spread +over a considerable number of years--I do not know the exact number, and +it is not of importance for my argument. These tenant-farmers are very +numerous--perhaps too numerous, it may be, for the good of the country-- +but there they are, and we must deal with them as we find them. The +number of them holding under 15 acres is 250,000; holding between 15 +acres and 30 acres, 136,000; holding over 30 acres, 158,000--altogether +there are more than 540,000 holders of land. It is to these 540,000 +land-holders or occupiers that the noble Lord proposes to lend money, on +the condition that they make certain improvements, and repay after a +certain number of years the sums advanced to them. I think I am right in +saying that there is no limitation in the Bill as to the smallness of +the holding to which the advance of money will be refused; and therefore +the whole 540,000 tenants will be in a position to come to the +Government, or to some Commission, or to the Board of Works, or to some +authority in Ireland, and ask for money to enable them to improve their +farms. + +The House will see that if this plan is to produce any considerable +result, it will be the source of a number of transactions such as the +Government have not had to deal with in any other matter; and I expect +that the difficulties will be very great, and that the working out of +the plan with any beneficial results will be altogether impossible. What +I ask the House is this--if it be right of the noble Lord, to enable him +to carry out his plan, to ask the House to pass a measure like this--to +lend all these tenants the money for improvements to be repaid after a +series of years, would it not be possible for us by a somewhat similar +process, and by some step farther in the same direction, to establish to +some extent--I am not speaking of extending it all through Ireland--a +farmer proprietary throughout the country? If it be right and proper to +lend money to improve, it surely may be proper, if it be on other +grounds judicious, to lend money to buy. I do not know if the right hon. +Member for Calne is here; but very likely he would spare me from the +severe criticisms he expended upon my hon. Friend the Member for +Westminster. + +Now, I am as careful as any man can be, I believe, of doing anything by +law that shall infringe what you think and what I think are the rights +of property. I do not pretend to believe, if you examine the terms +strictly, in what is called the absolute property in land. You may toss +a sixpence into the sea if you like, but there are things with respect +to land which you cannot, and ought not, and dare not do. But I do not +want to argue the question of legislation upon that ground I am myself +of opinion that there is no class in the community more interested in a +strict adherence to the principles of political economy, worked out in a +benevolent and just manner, than the humblest and poorest class in the +country. I think they have as much interest in it as the rich, and the +House has never known me, and so long as I stand here will never know +me, I believe, to propose or advocate anything which shall interfere +with what I believe to be, and what if a landowner I would maintain to +be, the just right of property in the land. + +But, then, I do not think, as some persons seem to think, that the land +is really only intended to be in the hands of the rich. I think that is +a great mistake. I am not speaking of the poor--for the poor man, in the +ordinary meaning of the term, cannot be the possessor of land; but what +I wish is, that farmers and men of moderate means should become +possessors of land and of their farms. About two centuries ago, two very +celebrated men endeavoured to form a constitution for Carolina, which +was then one of the colonies of this country in America. Lord +Shaftesbury, the statesman, and Mr. Locke, the philosopher, framed a +constitution with the notion of having great proprietors all over the +country, and men under them to cultivate it. I recollect that Mr. +Bancroft, the historian of the United States, describing the issue of +that attempt and its utter failure, says: 'The instinct of aristocracy +dreads the moral power of a proprietary yeomanry, and therefore the +perpetual degradation of the cultivators of the soil was enacted.' There +is no country in the world, in which there are only great landowners and +tenants, with no large manufacturing interest to absorb the population, +in which the degradation of the cultivating tenant is not completely +assured. + +I hope that hon. Members opposite, and hon. Gentlemen on this side who +may be disposed in some degree to sympathise with them, will not for a +moment imagine that I am discussing this question in any spirit of +hostility to the landowners of Ireland. I have always argued that the +landowners of Ireland, in their treatment of this question, have +grievously mistaken not only the interests of the population, but their +own. I was told the other day by a Member of this House, who comes from +Ireland, and is eminently capable of giving a sound opinion upon the +point, that he believed the whole of Ireland might be bought at about +twenty years' purchase; but you know that the land of England is worth +thirty years' purchase, and I believe a great deal of it much more,--and +it is owing to circumstances which legislation may in a great degree +remove that the land of Ireland is worth at this moment so much less +than the land of England. Coming back to the question of buying farms, I +put it to the House whether, if it be right to lend to landlords for +improvements, and to tenants for improving the farms of their landlords, +to those who propose to carry on public works, and to repair the ravages +of the cattle plague, I ask whether it is not also right for them to +lend money in cases where it may be advantageous to landlords, and where +they may be very willing to consent to it, to establish a portion of the +tenant-farmers of Ireland as proprietors of their farms. + +Now, bear in mind that I have never spoken about peasant proprietors. I +do not care what name you give them; I am in favour of more proprietors, +and some, of course, will be small and some will be large; but it would +be quite possible for Parliament, if it thought fit to attempt anything +of this kind, to fix a limit below which it would not allow the owner to +sell or the purchaser to buy. I believe that you can establish a class +of moderate proprietors, who will form a body intermediate between the +great owners of land and those who are absolutely landless, which will +be of immense service in giving steadiness, loyalty, and peace to the +whole population of the island. The noble Lord, the Chief Secretary, +knows perfectly well at what price he could lend that money, and I will +just state to the House one fact which will show how the plan would +work. If you were to lend money at 3-1/2 per cent., in thirty-five years +the tenant, paying 5 per cent., would have paid the whole money back and +all the interest due on it, and would become the owner of his farm; and +if you were to take the rate at which you have lent to the Harbour +Commissioners, and to repair the ravages of the cattle plague, which is +3-1/2 per cent., of course the whole sum would be paid back in a shorter +period. Therefore, in a term which in former times was not unusual in +the length of leases in Ireland, namely, thirty-one years, the tenant +purchasing his farm, without his present rent being raised, would repay +to the Government the principal and interest of the sum borrowed for +that purpose, would become the owner of his farm, and during the whole +of that time would have absolute fixity of tenure, because every year he +would be saving more and more, adding field to field, and at the end of +the time he would be the proprietor of the soil. + +Let not the House imagine that I am proposing to buy up the whole of the +land. I am proposing only to buy it in cases where men are willing to +sell, and to transfer it only in cases where men are able and willing to +buy, and you must know as well as I that there will be many thousands of +such cases in a few years. Every Irish proprietor opposite--the noble +Lord the Member for Tyrone (Lord C. Hamilton) himself, who made so +animated a speech, and appeared so angry with me a short time ago--must +know perfectly well that amongst the tenantry of Ireland there is a +considerable sum of saved money not invested in farms. Well, that saved +money would all come out to carry into effect transactions of this +nature; and you would find the most extraordinary efforts made by +thousands of tenants to become possessors of their farms by investing +their savings in them, by obtaining it may be the assistance of their +friends, and by such an industrious and energetic cultivation of the +soil as has scarcely ever been seen in Ireland. I said there were +landlords willing to sell, and there are cases in which, probably, +Parliament might insist upon a sale--for instance, the lands of the +London Companies. I never heard of much good that was done by all the +money of the London Companies. I was once invited to a dinner by one of +these Companies, and certainly it was of a very sumptuous and +substantial character, but I believe that, if the tenants of these +Companies were proprietors of the lands they cultivate, it would be a +great advantage to the counties in which they are situated. I come then +to this: I would negotiate with landowners who were willing to sell and +tenants who were willing to buy, and I would make the land the great +savings-bank for the future tenantry of Ireland. If you like, I would +limit the point to which we might go down in the transference of farms, +but I would do nothing in the whole transaction which was not perfectly +acquiesced in by both landlord and tenant, and I would pay the landlord +every shilling he could fairly demand in the market for the estate he +proposed to sell. + +Well, I hope every Gentleman present will acquit me of intending +confiscation, and that we shall have no further misunderstanding upon +that point. I venture to say to the noble Lord that this is a plan which +would be within compass and management, as compared with that laid down +in his Bill, if it worked at all, and I believe that it would do a +hundred times as much good, in putting the farmer upon the footing of a +holder of land in Ireland. What do hon. Gentlemen think would become of +an American Fenian if he came over to Ireland and happened to spend an +evening with a number of men who had got possession of their farms? I +remember my old friend Mr. Stafford, in the county of Wexford, whom I +called upon in 1849, who had bought his farm and had built upon it the +best farm-house which I saw in the whole South of Ireland, and who told +me that if all the tenantry of Ireland had security for their holdings-- +he was an old man, and could not easily rise from his chair, though he +made an effort to do so--'If they had the security that I have,' said +he, 'we'd _bate_ the hunger out of Ireland.' If the Fenian spent +his evening with such men as these, and proposed his reckless schemes to +them, not a single farmer would listen to him for a moment. Their first +impression would be that he was mad; their second, perhaps, that the +whisky had been too strong for him; and it would end, no doubt, if he +persisted in his efforts to seduce them from their allegiance to the +Imperial Government, by their turning him off the premises, though +perhaps, knowing that he could do no harm, they might not hand him over +to the police. + +The other day I passed through the county of Somerset, and through +villages that must be well known to many Gentlemen here--Rodney-Stoke +and Drayford, I think they were called--and I noticed a great appearance +of life and activity about the neighbourhood. I asked the driver of the +carriage which had brought me from Wells what was the cause of it. +'Why,' he said, 'don't you know that is the place where the great sale +took place?' 'What sale?' I asked. 'Oh! the sale of the Duke's +property.' 'What Duke?' 'The Duke of Buckingham. Did you never hear of +it? About fifteen years ago his property was sold in lots, and the +people bought all the farms. You never saw such a stir in the world.' He +pointed out the houses on the hill-side which had been built to replace +old tumble-down tenements, the red soil appearing under the plough, and +cultivation going on with such general activity as had not been +witnessed till within these last few years. The appearance of these +villages was such as must strike every traveller from another part of +the country, and it was produced by simple means. The great estate of an +embarrassed Duke had been divided and sold off; he had not been robbed; +the old miserable hovels of the former tenants had been pulled down, and +new life and activity had been given to the whole district. If you could +have such a change as this in Ireland, you would see such a progress and +prosperity that gentlemen would hardly know the district from which they +came. + +I think it only fair to my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster to +say, that I do not believe the time is come in Ireland, and I do not +believe it ever will come, when it will be necessary to have recourse to +so vast and extraordinary a scheme as that which he has proposed to the +House. It appears to me that it is not necessary for Ireland. There is +the land--there is the owner--there is the tenant. If the landowners had +been a little wiser we might not have had before us to-night the +difficulty that now perplexes us. Suppose, for example, they had not +been tempted to coerce or to make use of the votes of their tenants; +suppose they had not been tempted to withhold leases--undoubtedly the +condition of Ireland would have been far superior to what it now is. My +hon. Friend the Member for Westminster has some scruples, I believe, on +the question of the ballot, but I believe even he would not object to +see that admirable machinery of election tried in that country. Do hon. +Gentlemen think it not necessary? I was talking, only two days ago, to a +Member of this House who sat on one of the Irish election committees-- +the Waterford committee, I think--and he said: 'We could not unseat the +Members, though the evidence went to show a frightful state of things; +it was one of the most orderly elections they have in that country--only +three men killed and twenty-eight seriously wounded.' After all, we may +smile, and some of you may laugh at this, but it is not a thing to be +laughed at. It is a very serious matter, but it exists in no country in +the world where the ballot is in operation. + +If you were to try that mode of election in Ireland it would have two +results: it would make your elections perfectly tranquil, and at the +same time it would withdraw from the landowner--and a most blessed thing +for the landowner himself this would be--it would withdraw from him the +great temptation to make use of his tenant's vote for the support of his +own political party; and if that temptation were withdrawn, you would +have much more inducement to grant leases to many of your tenants, and +you would take a step highly favourable, not to the prosperity of your +tenants only, but to your own prosperity and your own honour. Now, Sir, +I shall say no more upon that question except this, that I feel myself +at a disadvantage in making a proposition of this nature to a House +where landowners are so numerous and so powerful, but I have disarmed +them in so far that they will see that I mean them no harm, and that +what I propose is not contrary to the principles of political economy; +and that if Government is at liberty to lend money for all the purposes +to which I have referred, Government must be equally at liberty to lend +money for this greater purpose; and, farther, I venture to express my +opinion, without the smallest hesitation or doubt, that if this were +done to the extent of creating some few scores of thousands of farmer +proprietors in Ireland, you would find that their influence would be +altogether loyal; that it would extend around throughout the whole +country that whilst you were adding to the security of Government you +would awaken industry in Ireland from its slumber, and you would have +the wealth which you have not had before, and, with wealth, contentment +and tranquillity in its train. + +Now, Sir, it may appear egotistical in me to make one remark more, but I +think if the House will not condemn me I shall make it. Last year you +did, under the leadership of the right hon. Gentleman, accept a +proposition which I had taken several years of trouble and labour to +convince you was wise. On Wednesday last, only two days ago, by an +almost unanimous vote you accepted a proposition with regard to another +matter, exactly in the form in which six or seven years ago I had urged +you to accept it. You in this House recollect when Mr. Speaker had to +give the casting vote, amidst vast excitement in the House, on the +miserable question of Church Rates; but now, on Wednesday last, you +accepted that Bill almost without opposition; and I presume that, except +for the formality of a third reading, we have done with the question for +ever. Now if you would kindly, I ask it as a favour--if you would kindly +for a moment forget things that you read of me which are not favourable, +and generally which are not true, and if you would imagine that though I +have not an acre of land in Ireland, I can be as honestly a friend of +Ireland as the man who owns half a county, it may be worth your while to +consider for your own interest, the interests of your tenants, the +security of the country from which you come, for the honour of the +United Kingdom, whether there is not something in the proposition that I +have made to you. + +Now, Sir, perhaps the House will allow me to turn to that other question +which, on the authority of the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for +Ireland, and the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn, and indeed on +the authority of the Prime Minister himself, is considered the next +greatest--perhaps I ought to have said the greatest--question we have to +consider in connection with Irish affairs; I mean the Irish Church +question. What is it that is offered upon this matter by the Government? +The noble Lord himself said very little about it, but he is not easy +upon it; he knows perfectly well, and cannot conceal it, that the Irish +Church question is at the root of every other question in Ireland. The +noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn said also that it was, along with +the land, the great and solemn question which we had to discuss, and he +turned round--I could discover it from the report in the paper, because +I was not, as you may suppose, at the Bristol banquet--he turned round +almost with a look of despair, and implored somebody to come and tell us +what ought to be done on this Irish question. And the Prime Minister +himself, in speaking of it, called it an 'Alien Church.' Bear that +phrase in mind. It is a strong phrase, a phrase we can all understand, +and we know that the right hon. Gentleman is a great master of phrases-- +he says a word upon some subject; it sticks; we all remember it, and +this is sometimes a great advantage. 'Alien Church' is the name he gives +it; and now, what does the noble Lord, acting, no doubt, under the +direction of his Colleagues and the Prime Minister, offer upon this +question? He rather offered a defence of it; he did not go into any +argument, but still, at the same time, he rather defied anybody to make +an assault upon it; he believed that it would not succeed, and that it +was very wrong; but what does he really propose? Only this: to add +another buttress in the shape of another bribe. He says that he will +make an offer to the Roman Catholic hierarchy and people of Ireland-- +some say that the people do not want it, and that the hierarchy do want +it, but I say nothing about that, because I hope the Catholic people of +Ireland are at least able to defend themselves from the hierarchy, if +the hierarchy wish to cripple them too much--he says he will endow a +Roman Catholic University in Ireland. As the noble Lord went on with his +speech he touched upon the question of the Presbyterian _Regium +Donum_, and spoke of it, I think, as a miserable provision for the +Presbyterians of the North of Ireland; and evidently, if he had had the +courage, the desperate courage to do it, he would have proposed, whilst +he was offering to endow a new Roman Catholic University, to increase or +double the _Regium Donum_. The noble Lord does not express any +dissent from this, and I rather think he wishes that it were safely +done. The object of this, and what he would like to have said to the +hon. Gentlemen about him who came from Ireland to represent the Roman +Catholic population, and to the Presbyterians of the North of Ireland, +was this: 'If you will continue to support the Protestant Church in +Ireland and the Protestant supremacy, we will endow you (the Roman +Catholics) a University, really, if not professedly, under clerical +rule; and as to you (the Presbyterians), we will double your stipends by +doubling the amount of the _Regium Donum_.' + +Now, why do you offer anything? Why is it we are discussing this +question? Why did the noble Lord think it necessary to speak for three +hours and twenty minutes on the subject? Because the state of Ireland is +now very different from the state which we have sometimes seen, and very +different, I hope, from that which many of us may live to see hereafter; +because Ireland has a certain portion of its population rebellious, has +a larger portion disloyal and discontented, but has a still larger +portion dissatisfied with the Imperial rule. Now I must say--I hope the +noble Lord will not think I am saying anything uncivil--but I must say +that his proposition appears to be at once grotesque and imbecile, and I +think at the same time--though I do not like to use unpleasant words-- +that to a certain extent it must be held to be--in fact, I think the +hon. Gentleman the Member for North Warwickshire hinted as much--not +only very wrong, but very dishonest. At this moment it seems to find no +favour on either side of the House, although I can understand the +Catholic Members of the House feeling themselves bound to say nothing +against it, and perhaps, if it came to a division, to vote for it; but I +believe there is not a Catholic Member on this side of the House who +could in his conscience say that it was right in him to accept this +proposition as a bribe that he should hereafter support Protestant +supremacy. In fact, it appears to me exactly in the position now that +the dual vote was in this time twelve months, and there are people who +say that it has been brought forward with the same object, and that by- +and-by, as nobody is for it, the right hon. Gentleman will say that as +nobody is in favour of it they will not urge it upon Parliament. Now, +does anybody believe that a Catholic University in Ireland could have +the smallest effect upon Fenianism, or upon the disloyalty, discontent, +and dissatisfaction of which Fenianism is the latest and the most +terrible expression? It is quite clear that for the evil which we have +to combat, the remedy which the right hon. Gentleman offers through the +Chief Secretary for Ireland is no remedy at all. + +It reminds me of an anecdote which is related by Addison. He says that +in his time there was a man who made a living by cheating the country +people. He was not a Cabinet Minister,--he was only a mountebank,--and +he set up a stall, and sold pills that were very good against the +earthquake. Well, that is about the state of things that we are in now. +There is an earthquake in Ireland. Does anybody doubt it? I will not go +into the evidence of it, but I will say that there has been a most +extraordinary alarm--some of it extravagant, I will admit--throughout +the whole of the three kingdoms; and although Fenianism may be but a +low, a reckless, and an ignorant conspiracy, the noble Lord has admitted +that there is discontent and disaffection in the country; and when the +Member for one of the great cities of Ireland comes forward and asks the +Imperial Parliament to discuss this great question--this social and +political earthquake under which Ireland is heaving--the noble Lord +comes forward and offers that there shall be a clerical-governed endowed +University for the sons, I suppose, of the Catholic gentlemen of +Ireland. I have never heard a more unstatesmanlike or more +unsatisfactory proposition; and I believe the entire disfavour with +which it has been received in this House is only a proper representation +of the condemnation which it will receive from the great majority of the +people of the three kingdoms. + +Do not let any one suppose that I join in the terms which I regretted to +hear from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stroud, and still less +that I join in the, in my opinion, more offensive terms which fell from +the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Calne. There can be no good in +our attacking either the Catholic population or the Catholic hierarchy +of Ireland. We have our duty straight before us, which is to do both the +hierarchy and the people justice. We are not called upon to support the +plan of the Government, and I believe the people of Great Britain, and a +very large portion of the people of Ireland, will rejoice when the House +of Commons shall reject a proposition which is adverse to the course we +have taken for many years past, and a proposition which would have no +better effect in tranquillising Ireland in the future than the increase +of the grant to Maynooth did more than twenty years ago. Sir Robert Peel +at that time, with the most honourable and kindly feeling to Ireland, +proposed to increase the grant to Maynooth, and it was passed, I think, +by a large majority of the House, I being one of a very few persons on +this side of the House who opposed the grant. I was as kindly disposed +to the Catholics of Ireland as Sir Robert Peel, but I was satisfied that +was not the path of tranquillisation, and that if he trod that path it +would before any long time have to be retraced; and I think, if you now +proceed upon the course recommended by the right hon. Gentleman, you +will fail in the pacification of Ireland, and the time will come when +you will have to retrace the steps he invites you to tread in now. + +Now, Sir, I think we have arrived at this point of the question--that we +have absolutely arrived at it, and there is no escape from it--that it +does not matter in the least whether the right hon. Gentleman sits on +the Treasury Bench, or whether the right hon. Member for South +Lancashire takes his place, or whether the two should unite--which is a +very bold figure of speech--but I say that if the two should unite, it +could not alter this fact, that the Protestant supremacy, as represented +by a State Church in Ireland, is doomed, and is, in fact, at an end. +Whatever are the details, and I admit that they will be very difficult +details in some particulars, which may be introduced into the measure +which shall enact the great change that the circumstances of Ireland and +the opinion of the United Kingdom have declared to be necessary, this, +at least, we have come to, that perfect religious equality henceforth, +and not only religious equality, but equality on the voluntary +principle, must be granted. + +Some hon. Gentlemen opposite have spoken about a pamphlet which has +recently been written by Lord Russell. I would speak of Lord Russell, as +the House knows, as I would always of a man older than myself, and whose +services to the country have been so long and so great; I speak of him +with great respect, and I say that the pamphlet is written with +wonderful fire, that it contains in it very much that is interesting, +and very much that is true, but its one fault is that it should have +been published about forty years ago. Lord Russell's proposition is +politically just in the division which he proposes of the property of +the Church in Ireland, and, if public opinion had not condemned the +creation of new Established Churches, it might have been possible to +have adopted his scheme as it is. But I say the time has gone by for the +establishment of new State Churches. They will never again be planted as +an institution in this country, and I suspect there is no other country +in the world which has not an Established Church that would wish to +possess one. But, if the House will allow me, I should like to advert to +a little scheme on this matter which I was bold enough to explain to my +countrymen on the occasion to which I have referred. It is not a new +scheme in my mind, for the whole principle of it, with an elaborate +argument in its favour, were published very widely in the year 1852, in +a letter which I wrote to my hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny (Sir +John Gray), who was one of certain persons, Members of Parliament and +others, who met in conference in Dublin on the question of religious +equality in Ireland. I only state this to show that it is no new idea, +and that I have had plenty of time to consider it. There have been great +objections to the plan, and amongst those who have objected to it, as +might possibly have been expected, were gentlemen of the Liberation +Society. Now, I know many of the leading members of that Society, and +they are very good men. Even those who may think they are mistaken +would, if they knew them, join with me in that opinion. One of them, at +least, who was once a Member of this House, and, in all probability, +will be here again--Mr. Miall--is not only a good man, but he is a great +man. I judge him by the nobleness of his principles, and by the grand +devotion which he has manifested to the teaching of what he believes to +be a great truth. I take criticisms from them kindly, as we ought to +take them from our friends when they are honestly given. + +What is the condition of Ireland at this moment with which you have to +deal? There is not only the Church which it is proposed to disestablish, +but you have the _Regium Donum_, which, if the Church be +disestablished, must necessarily be withdrawn; and you have, if these +two things happen, a grant to Maynooth, the Act conferring which must +necessarily be repealed. Now, in doing these things the House will +observe that we shall disturb all the three principal sects or Churches +in Ireland, and we can only do it, or attempt to do it, on the ground +that we are about to accomplish some great public good. Well, my +proposal, which some hon. Gentlemen, I dare say, will have some vague +idea of, was made with the view of easing Parliament in the great +transaction, from which I believe it cannot escape. It is a great thing +in statesmanship, when you are about to make a change which is +inevitable, and which shocks some, disturbs more, and makes hesitating +people hesitate still more--it is a great thing, I say, if you can make +the past slide into the future without any great jar, and without any +great shock to the feelings of the people. And in doing these things the +Government can always afford to be generous and gracious to those whom +they are obliged to disturb. + +We have found that this has been the case when needful changes have been +proposed; for instance, hon. Gentlemen will recollect, when tithe +commutation for Ireland was passed, that there was a certain concession +made to the landowners of Ireland, to induce them to acquiesce in the +proposition of Parliament. We know that when slavery was abolished a +considerable sum of money was voted. Lord Derby proposed in this House +that compensation should be given to the slaveowners. If it had not been +for that, slavery would before long have been abolished by violence. But +Parliament thought it was much better to take the step it did take, and +I am not, at this period of time, about for a moment to dispute its +wisdom. In all these things we endeavour, if we are forced to make a +great change, to make it in such a manner as that we shall obtain the +acquiescence and the support, if possible, of those who are most likely +to be nearly affected by it. Suppose we were going to disestablish the +Church of Scotland--and I understand that there are a great number +belonging to the Established Church of Scotland who are coming round to +the opinion that it would be much to their benefit, and I think for the +benefit of their Church, if it were disestablished--if we were going to +disestablish the Church of Scotland or the Church of England, no person +for a moment would suppose that, after having taken all the tithes and +all the income from these Churches, you would also take all the churches +and all the parsonage-houses from the Presbyterian people of Scotland, +or from the Episcopal Church people in England. You would not do +anything of that kind. You would do to them as we should wish, if we +were in their position, that the Government and Parliament should do to +us. Do what you have to do thoroughly for the good of the country, but +do it in such a manner as shall do least harm, and as shall gain the +largest amount of acquiescence from those whom you are about to affect. +I venture to say that such is the course we should take about Ireland. + +I am very free in speaking on these matters. I am not a Catholic in the +sense of Rome. I am not a Protestant in the sense in which that word is +used in Ireland. I am not connected with a powerful sect in England. I +think, from my training, and education, and association, and thought on +these questions, I stand in a position which enables me to take as fair +and unimpassioned a view of the matter as perhaps any man in the House. +Now, if I were asked to give my advice, and if I am not asked I shall +give it--I should propose that where there are congregations in Ireland-- +I am speaking now, of course, of the present Established Church--who +would undertake to keep in repair the church in which they have been +accustomed to worship, and the parsonage-house in which their ministers +live, Parliament should leave them in the possession of their churches +and of their parsonage-houses. And I believe I speak the sentiment of +every Catholic Member on this side of the House, and probably of every +intelligent Catholic in Ireland, not only of the laity but of the +hierarchy and the priesthood, when I say that they would regard such a +course as that on the part of Parliament as just, under the +circumstances in which we are placed. Well, then, of course there would +be no more bishops appointed by the Crown, and that institution in +Ireland would come to an end, except it were continued upon the +principle upon which bishops are appointed in Scotland. All State +connection would be entirely abolished. You would then have all alike. +The Protestants would have their churches and parsonage-houses as they +have now. But the repairs of them, and the support of their ministers, +would be provided by their congregations, or by such an organisation as +they chose to form. The Catholics would provide, as they have hitherto +done so meritoriously and with a remarkable liberality, for themselves. + +No greater instance of generosity and fidelity to their Church can be +seen in the world than that which has been manifested by the Catholic +people of Ireland. They have their churches and their priests' houses in +many places. There is no pretence for meddling with them. In the north +of Ireland, where the Presbyterians are most numerous, they would also +have their places of worship, and their ministers' houses as they have +now. All the Churches, therefore, in that respect would be on an +equality. Well, now, the real point of this question, and which will +create in all probability much feeling in Parliament and in the country, +is, what should be done on the question of the Maynooth Grant, and on +the question of the _Regium Donum?_ They must be treated alike, I +presume. If you preserve the life interests of the ministers and bishops +of the Established Church, it may be right to preserve the life +interests of the ministers of the Presbyterian Church, and it may be +right also in some way or other to make some provision that shall not in +the least degree bring them under the control of the State. And some +provision might have to be made to the Catholic Church in lieu of the +Maynooth Grant, which, of course, you would be obliged to withdraw. +These are points which I will not discuss in detail. I merely indicate +them for the sake of showing to the House, and to a great number of +people who are regarding it with even more feeling than we do, what are +some of the difficulties of this question--difficulties which must be +met--difficulties which it will require all the moderation, all the +Christian feeling, and all the patriotism which this House can muster on +both sides of it, with the view of settling this question permanently, +and to the general satisfaction of the three kingdoms. Now, I will go no +further, but to say that whatever is done--if a single sixpence is given +by Parliament, in lieu of the Maynooth Grant, or in lieu of the +_Regium Donum_, it must be given on these terms only--and on that +matter I think Lord Russell has committed a great error--that it becomes +the absolute property of the Catholics or of the Presbyterians--it must +be as completely their property as the property of the great Wesleyan +body in this country, or of the Independents, or of the Baptists, +belongs to these bodies. It must be property which Parliament can never +pretend to control, or regulate, or withdraw. + +And having consented to that condition, the three Churches of Ireland +would be started as voluntary Churches, and instead of fighting, as I am +sorry to say they have been fighting far longer than within the memory +of man, I hope soon there would be a competition among them which should +do most for the education, the morals, and the Christianity of the +population who are within their instruction and guidance. Now, +Protestants in this country--I think almost all Protestants--object very +strongly to Rome. The Nonconformists object to endowments. They +sometimes, I think, confound establishments with endowments. I think it +absolutely essential that establishments should cease, and that there +should be nothing in the way of endowment unless it be some small +provision such as that which I have indicated; which it might be +necessary to make when you are withdrawing certain things which the +Churches in Ireland had supposed were theirs in perpetuity. + +Now, one word which I would say to the Nonconformist people of England +and Scotland, if the House will allow me to speak, is this--they should +bear in mind that the whole of this property which is now in the +possession of the Established Church of Ireland is Irish property. It +does not belong to Scotland or to England, and it would be a measure +intolerable and not to be thought of, that it should be touched or dealt +with in any manner that is not in accordance with the feelings and the +interests of the people of Ireland. Let any man who to-morrow criticises +this part of my speech ask himself what an Irish Parliament freely +elected would do with the ecclesiastical funds of Ireland. I think the +Presbyterians of Scotland, the Churchmen and Nonconformists of England, +have no right to suppose themselves to be judges with regard to +religious matters in Ireland. They have a perfect right to say to +Parliament through their representatives, 'We will discontinue the State +Church in Ireland, and we will create no other State Churches.' But that +seems to be about the extent of the interference which they are entitled +to in this matter. + +I hope I have explained with tolerable clearness the views which I have +felt it my duty to lay before the House on the occasion of this great +question. The House will see, and I think hon. Gentlemen opposite will +admit, that I am at least disposed to treat it as a great question +which, if it be dealt with, should be dealt with in the most generous, +gracious, and, if you like, tender manner by Parliament, as respects the +feelings and interests of all who are most directly concerned. The right +hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, in his speech last night, said that +this proposal to disestablish the Established Church of Ireland was, in +point of fact, in some sort a revolution. This, at any rate, I am +satisfied, would be not only an entirely bloodless revolution, but a +revolution full of blessing to the Irish people. + +I have not said a word--I never said a word in this House, and, I +believe, never out of it, to depreciate the character of the clergymen +of the Established Church in Ireland. I think no religious ministers are +placed in a more unfortunate position, and I am satisfied that many of +them feel it to be so. I have not the least doubt, when this transaction +is once accomplished, that they will breathe more freely. I believe they +will be more potent in their ministrations, and that their influence, +which must, or ought to be, considerable, will be far more extensive +than it has been, and far more beneficial in the districts in which they +live. But being so great a question, as the Home Secretary described it, +it can only be settled by mutual and reasonable concession. The main +principle being secured, that State Church supremacy is abolished in +Ireland, and that the Irish Churches are henceforth to be free Churches +upon the voluntary principle, then I should be willing, and I would +recommend every person in the country whom my voice may reach, to make +any reasonable concession that can be suggested in the case. So anxious +am I that it should be done, that I should be delighted to co-operate +with the right hon. Gentleman, and with hon. Members on the opposite +side of the House, in support of any just measure for settling this +great question. But I say, if it ever does come to be dealt with by a +great and powerful Minister, let it be dealt with in a great and +generous spirit. I would counsel to all men moderation and justice. It +is as necessary to Protestants as to Catholics and to Nonconformists +that they should endeavour to get rid of passion in discussing this +question. + +We are, after all, of one religion. I imagine that there will come a +time in the history of the world when men will be astonished that +Catholics and Protestants have had so much animosity against and +suspicion of each other. I accept the belief in a grand passage, which I +once met with in the writings of the illustrious founder of the colony +of Pennsylvania. He says that 'The humble, meek, merciful, just, pious, +and devout souls are everywhere of one religion, and when death has +taken off the mask they will know one another, though the diverse +liveries they wear here make them strangers.' Now, may I ask the House +to act in this spirit, and then our work will be easy. The noble Lord, +towards the conclusion of his speech, spoke of the cloud which rests at +present over Ireland. It is a dark and heavy cloud, and its darkness +extends over the feelings of men in all parts of the British Empire. But +there is a consolation which we may all take to ourselves. An inspired +king and bard and prophet has left us words which are not only the +expression of a fact, but which we may take as the utterance of a +prophecy. He says, 'To the upright there ariseth light in the darkness.' +Let us try in this matter to be upright. Let us try to be just. That +cloud will be dispelled. The dangers which surround us will vanish, and +we may yet have the happiness of leaving to our children the heritage of +an honourable citizenship in a united and prosperous Empire. + + * * * * * + +IRELAND. + +IX. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 1, 1868. + +[This speech was made in the debate on Mr. Gladstone's resolutions for +disestablishing the Irish Church.] + +The House will not expect me to follow the legal argument of the hon. +and learned Member who has just sat down. I entertain a firm belief that +those legal cobwebs which are spread, and which are supposed to, and do +in the minds of many Gentlemen, interpose between the completion of a +great act of justice, will be swept away before long by the almost +unanimous opinion of the people of the three kingdoms. + +During this debate, which has yet lasted only two nights, there has +been, if not a remarkable change of opinion, a remarkable change of +expression. Last night we had an interesting speech from the noble Lord +who generally sits opposite me, the noble Lord the Member for Stamford. +I refer only to the beginning of his speech, in which he spoke of his +affection for the principle of a Church Establishment. There was a +hesitation in his manner; he had a strong love for his principle, but it +appeared to me that he thought the time was come when even that +cherished principle would have to be surrendered. From the Treasury +bench we had a speech from the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign +Affairs, and when he sat down it is difficult to say what was the +precise impression made upon the House; but I think, on the whole, the +impression made on the other side of the House--his own side--was by no +means a comfortable one. Now to me it is, and I think to the House it +is, a misfortune that we have a Government that speaks with a different +voice from night to night. We had it last year, and I presume, from the +example of the debate which lately took place on the motion of the hon. +Member for Cork, and from the debate on this motion, we are about to see +a repetition of it. + +The fact is, that the position of the Government is one of great +difficulty and perplexity; to speak plainly, it is one which I should +call, in our Constitutional system, altogether unnatural. They are the +Ministers, the leaders of a minority of the House, and whilst they sat +as leaders of the minority in opposition they defended the principles of +their party, and they apparently regarded all their past career with +satisfaction; but the moment they are transferred to the Treasury bench +they find themselves in this difficulty, that although their party may +still wish to cling to their past opinions, there is something in the +very air, there is something throughout the mind of the whole kingdom, +which teaches them that their past opinions are impossible in their new +position. + +The noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn made a speech not long ago at +Bristol, and in that speech he expressed what I am quite sure were his +honest opinions with regard to the condition of Ireland. He stated that +the condition of Ireland was one painful and dangerous, and to us, in +appearance at least, discreditable. He said we had a strange and +perplexing problem to solve; that in Ireland there was a miserable state +of things. Then he said, 'If we look for a remedy, who can give us an +intelligible answer? Ireland is the question of the hour.' And that is +not altogether at variance--in fact, I should say not at all at +variance--with the speech of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, who told +us, as far as he knew, the facts about his country. But immediately +afterwards we had the description of the right hon. Gentleman at the +head of the Government, to the effect that there was no crisis at all-- +that, in point of fact, the condition of Ireland was a normal condition, +and that there was no necessity for anything remarkable or unusual in +the legislation that was required. Now, to-night we have had a speech +from the Home Secretary. I may say that every speaker on that side of +the House has admitted that his speech is entirely in opposition, in its +tone, its purpose, and its principle, to the speech of the noble Lord +the Member for King's Lynn. It seems to me that the Home Secretary to- +night answered the Foreign Secretary of last night--and I suppose if the +debate goes on until Thursday, probably the right hon. Gentleman at the +head of the Government, or perhaps the Secretary of State for India, +will answer the speech of the Secretary of State for the Home +Department. + +But all this shows us that the House is in a wrong position. We have a +minority in office which cannot assert its own views with safety, nor +can it with any more safety directly adopt our views; and thus, when, on +that side of the House, a Minister gets up and makes what is called a +liberal speech on this question to us who are in opposition, that +creates discontent; and then another Minister rises and makes a speech +of an exactly opposite character, to reconcile that discontent. There +is, in fact, confusion and chaos in the House. We have a Government +which is not a Government--and we have an Opposition which is not an +Opposition, because really we do not oppose anything that you propose. +Your propositions are not based upon your own principles, which you held +when you sat on this side of the House, but on our principles, and +therefore we are not in opposition at all, but we help you as much as +possible to enforce, not your own principles, but ours. Whatever +compensation it may be to right hon. Gentlemen who sit on that bench and +enjoy the dignities and emoluments of office, I think there are many +honourable men on whom I am looking at this moment who do not observe +the course of these proceedings with entire satisfaction. + +But now, notwithstanding these difficulties, there remains this great +question which we must discuss, and which, if possible, we must settle. +I say, notwithstanding some observations to the contrary, that the +people of the three kingdoms are looking with anxious suspense at the +course which Parliament may take on this question. The right hon. +Gentleman the Home Secretary on one occasion spoke of this question, of +this proposition, as being something in the nature of a revolution. But, +if it be a revolution, after all it is not so great a one as we might +suppose from the force and energy of the speech which he has delivered +to-night--a speech which, although I differ from his views, was, I must +say, a very good speech--in which he brought into the House a good deal +of the energy of the people of that great county (Yorkshire) from which +he comes. But we are now about to deal with a question which only +affects, according to the census, something under 700,000 people. I +observe hon. Gentlemen talk of the Protestants of Ireland as being one- +fourth of the whole population--of being a million and a half. All that +is fanciful exaggeration. According to the census the Episcopalians are +not more than 700,000, and let hon. Gentlemen bear this in mind--when +the census enumerators go round, if a man is not a Catholic or a +Presbyterian, he is put down, unless he can state he is of some other +sect, as an Episcopalian. And judging from what we know, there must be +out of the 700,000 a considerable number who never go to church, and, +politically or religiously, have no interest in it. Therefore, I +believe, speaking correctly, it would not be possible to show that there +are Episcopalians in Ireland in intimate connection with the Established +Church to the amount of more than from half a million to 600,000. + +Now, this will not come to more than 100,000 families, that is, will not +be very much more than the population of Liverpool, or Manchester, or +Glasgow; so that, in point of fact, this question, which is held to be a +revolution,--this great question affects only a population equal to that +of the city of Glasgow, or of Liverpool, or of Manchester. And it is for +a population so small as this, I am told--for I am not versed in +computations of this kind--you have no less than twelve bishops and +archbishops, and that you have devoted for their services--for their +religious services--not less than the annual income arising from a +capital sum estimated to be, at least, ten or twelve millions sterling. +Now, if their system of teaching is really very good, I must say there +ought to be in Ireland a more perfectly moral and religious population +among the Church Protestants than there is in any other country in the +world. + +What, then, are we about to do? What is the House about to do if we +adopt the resolutions of the right hon. Member for South Lancashire? If +the House accept the advice of the majority sitting on this side, what +will be done? We are not going to commit any vital wrong upon that one +city population of 500,000 or 600,000. When we have done everything that +I have suggested should be done, we shall leave them in as comfortable a +position as the majority of the people of Scotland are in at this +moment. We shall leave them as well off as eight or nine-tenths of the +population of Wales are; we shall leave them as well off as half, and +not the least religious half, of the people of England are; we shall +leave them as well off as the English, Scotch, Welsh, and Irish people +who form the population in our colonies, whether in North America or +Australia. And what can be more monstrous than for Gentlemen to come +here from Ireland--and there may he some from England--and tell us we +are bringing about a revolution, that we are committing an enormous +oppression, that we are hazarding the loyalty of the people of the North +of Ireland, when, after all, the most and worst which any of us proposes +to do is that the Church population of Ireland will be left at least as +well off as any of the various populations of the Empire I have just +described? I hope hon. Gentlemen opposite will be convinced that it is +not a bottomless abyss we are going to plunge their friends into. + +Although it is a very small question for the Church in Ireland and for +the Church people, I hold it is an infinitely larger question for the +Catholic population. The hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke last +relies much upon law. I suppose it will be admitted that there are only +two pretences on which this State Church--the Protestant Church--can +exist in Ireland. The one is religious--the other is political. Now, has +anybody been able to show that, as a religious institution, it has not +been a deplorable failure? because clearly, the original intention, the +original hope was, that the people of Ireland would be drawn from the +Church of Rome and brought into harmony with the Church of England. I +undertake to say, from the time of its first establishment until now, +reckoning up all the Catholics on the one side and the Protestants on +the other, that it could not be shown, and is not to be believed, that +it has ever added really one person in every hundred persons to the +actual number of Protestants in the kingdom of Ireland. It has been an +entire failure--a failure deplorable, and almost ludicrous, as an engine +for converting the Catholic population. But it has not only not made +Catholics into Protestants, but it has made Catholics in Ireland more +intensely Roman than the members of that Church are found to be in any +other country in Europe or in America. And what is more than that, I +think it can be demonstrated that the existence of the Protestant Church +in Ireland, whether missionary or not in pretence, has not only not +converted the Catholics themselves, but has made it absolutely +impossible that anybody else, or any other Church, should convert them. +Because, if you look how the Church has been connected with the State, +and with the politics of the country, with the supremacy of the landed +proprietors, with the supremacy of the Protestant party, with all the +dark records of the past, you will see the effect has been to make +Catholicism in Ireland not only a faith, but absolutely a patriotism. + +I think I might appeal to every Member of the House who now hears me +whether, if he had been placed in Ireland with his father before him +among the Catholic population--I might ask him whether he would not have +felt that if he threw off his allegiance to his Church, and if he +entered the portals of this garrison Church, that it would have been to +him not only a change of faith, but a denial as it were of his birth and +of his country. I have felt always in considering this question--and I +have considered it much for twenty-five years past--that all the +circumstances of that Church in Ireland have been such as to stimulate +the heart of every Catholic to a stronger adherence to his own faith, +and to a determined and unchangeable rejection of the faith and of the +Church which were offered to him by the hands of conquest. There is one +point on this, too, which is important, that the more you have produced +dissatisfaction with Imperial rule in Ireland, the more you have thrown +the population into the hands of Rome. Now, I hope I shall offend no +Catholic Member in this House when I say that I consider it one of the +greatest calamities of the world that there are in many countries +millions of Catholic population who are liable to be directed in much of +their conduct, and often in their political conduct, through their +bishops and clergy from the centre of the city of Rome. I think that is +a misfortune--I think it is a misfortune to the freedom of the world. +And I think, moreover, that it is a misfortune to every Catholic Church +in every country, for it tends to prevent it from being wholly national, +and it prevents also such changes and such reformations as, I believe, +are necessary in the progress of every Church. We see some result of +this in other countries of Europe. Notably, at this moment, in Austria, +even in that country which we lately thought was the very last in the +race of freedom, there is a contest going on with Rome. But there +probably is no country in Europe at this moment in which the Catholic +Church and population are more entirely subject than in Ireland to the +direct influence of a certain number of persons, of whom most of us know +nothing, who pull the strings of the Catholic world in the city of Rome. +I attribute much of this, which I think a great evil, to the existence +of the Protestant Church in Ireland. You know perfectly well that the +great discontent of Ireland is chiefly entertained by the Catholic +population, and you know that this population is even at this moment, +more than it was some years ago, subject directly to political +influences from Rome. But I am satisfied that it is for the interest of +the Catholic population, and that it is for the interest of this great +nation and of this Imperial Government, that whatsoever be the tie +between the Catholic population of Ireland and the Government in +Ireland, we ought at least to take away every obstacle that can lessen +in the smallest degree the loyalty of that people to the Imperial Crown. + +And if this Church has failed as a religious institution, how stands it +as a political institution? It was intended not only to convert the +Catholics, but to secure the Union. An hon. Gentleman, with a courage +that I should not like to imitate, said that if the 5th Article of the +Act of Union should be altered, then in point of fact the Union is as +good as abolished. I see the hon. Gentleman up there, and I think he is +not the only one who has said it in the course of this discussion. It is +a very old and not a very strange device to expect the people to be made +loyal through the instrumentality of the clergy. I know that many +centuries ago a monk of some celebrity at the Court of Louis of Bavaria +told that monarch, 'You defend me with the sword, and I will defend you +with the pen.' We have been during all this time defending this Church +with the sword. The sword has scarcely ever been out of the hand of the +governing power in Ireland. And if a fair, simple, and unadorned +narrative were given of the transactions of this Parliament with +Ireland, with regard to its different enactments, coercive restrictions, +suspensions of the Habeas Corpus Act, and so forth, it would form a +narrative which would astonish the world and would discredit us. Sir, I +am afraid it is not too much to say that, in support of this supremacy, +many victims have perished on the scaffold in Ireland, and that the +fields of Ireland have been more than once drenched with the blood of +her people. But, after all this is done, we are not a bit more secure. + +It is no matter what Government sits on the bench opposite. The right +hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire was there two years ago, +and on that occasion, by the consent of his Colleagues, the then Home +Secretary had to introduce the Bill for the suspension of the Habeas +Corpus Act. Now you are on that side of the House, and you have to do +the same. Nobody says it is not necessary. I am not prepared to say it +has not been necessary at other times. But surely if this be necessary-- +and if there is this painful duty to perform at various times--it shows +that the Union is not very secure in Ireland. In fact, Sir, it is the +most painful thing that we have witnessed lately, that the suspension of +the Habeas Corpus Act has become so common that it causes almost no +remark. The measure is introduced into the House. An Irish Member makes +a feeble protest against it, and it is passed, and we suspend the +liberties of one of the three kingdoms from year to year. And the Prime +Minister has the courage--I might almost use another word--he has the +courage to say there is no crisis, and that things are going on very +much as usual, and that the House of Commons is not required to do much +or care much for that country. + +What you have in Ireland is this. There is anarchy, which is subdued by +force, and after centuries of rule--not our rule, but that of our +forefathers--we have got no farther. We have not reconciled Ireland to +us, we have done none of those things which the world says we ought to +have done; and at this moment--in the year 1868--we are discussing the +question whether it is possible to make any change with reference to the +Established Church in Ireland which will bring about a better state of +feeling between the people and the Imperial Government. Sir, I am afraid +there has been very little statesmanship and very much neglect, and I +think we ought to take shame to ourselves, and try to get rid of some of +our antiquated prejudices on this matter, and look at it as men would +look at it from a distance, as men whose vision is not impaired by the +passionate feelings which have so often prevailed in this country with +regard to this question. What, then, is the remedy that is now offered? +What do people say of it? Now, I challenge any hon. Gentleman on the +other side to deny this, that out of half a million Episcopalians in +Ireland there are many--there are some in the Irish nobility, some +landed proprietors, some magistrates, even some of the clergy, a great +many Irishmen--who believe at this moment that it is of the very first +importance that the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman the Member +for South Lancashire should be carried. + +I am not going to overstate my case. I do not say that all of them are +of that opinion. Of that half-million, say that one-fourth--I will state +no number--but of this I am quite certain, that there is an influential, +a considerable, and, as I believe, a wise minority, who are in favour of +distinct and decided action on the part of Parliament with regard to +this question. But if you ask the whole Roman Catholic population of +Ireland, be they nobles, or landed proprietors, or merchants, or +farmers, or labourers,--the whole number of the Catholic population in +Ireland being, I suppose, eight or nine times the number of +Episcopalians--these are probably, without exception, of opinion that it +would be greatly advantageous and just to their country if the +proposition submitted on this side of the House should receive the +sanction of Parliament. Now, if some Protestants and all Catholics are +agreed that we should remove this Church, what would happen if Ireland +was 1,000 miles away, and we were discussing it as we might discuss the +same state of affairs in Canada? If we were to have in Canada and in +Australia all this disloyalty among the Roman Catholic population, owing +to the existence of a State Church there, the House would be unanimous +that the State Church in those colonies should be abolished, and that +perfect freedom in religion should be given. + +But there is a fear in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman the Home +Secretary that the malady which would exist in Ireland might cross the +Channel and appear in England; that in fact the disorder of +Voluntaryism, as he deems it, in Ireland, like any other contagious +disorder, might cross the Channel, by force of the west wind, lodging +first in Scotland, and then crossing the Tweed and coming south to +England. I think the right hon. Gentleman went so far as to say that he +was so much in favour of religious equality, that if you went so far as +to disestablish the Church in Ireland, he would recommend the same +policy for England. Now, with regard to that, I will give you an +anecdote which has reference to Scotland. Some years ago I had the +pleasure of spending some days in Scotland at the house of the late Lord +Aberdeen, after he had ceased to be Prime Minister. He was talking of +the disruption of the Church of Scotland, and he said that nothing in +the course of his public life had given him so much pain as the +disruption, and the establishment of the Free Church in that country; +but he said he had lived long enough to discover that it was one of the +greatest blessings that had ever come to Scotland. He said that they had +a vast increase in the number of churches, a corresponding increase in +the number of manses or ministers' houses, and that schools had +increased, also, to an extraordinary extent; that there had been +imparted to the Established Church a vitality and energy which it had +not known for a long period; and that education, morality, and religion +had received a great advancement in Scotland in consequence of that +change. Therefore, after all, it is not the most dreadful thing in the +world--not so bad as a great earthquake--or as many other things that +have happened. I am not quite sure that the Scottish people themselves +may not some day ask you--if you do not yourselves introduce and pass it +without their asking--to allow their State Church to be disestablished. + +I met only the other day a most intelligent gentleman from the north of +Scotland, and he told me that the minister of the church he frequented +had 250_l_. a-year from the Establishment Funds, which he thought +very much too little, and he felt certain that, if the Establishment +were abolished, and the Church made into a Free Church, the salary of +the minister would be immediately advanced to at least 500_l_. a- +year. That is a very good argument for the ministers, and we shall see +by-and-by, if the conversion of Scotland proceeds much further, that you +may be asked to disestablish their Church. The hon. Member for Honiton +last night quoted something which, I daresay, he did not recollect +accurately--something which I had said respecting the Church of England; +but the fact is that the Church of England is not suffering from the +assaults of the Liberation Society; it is suffering from a very +different complaint. It is an internal complaint. You have had it before +one of the courts of law within the last few days, and a very curious +decision has been given,--that candles are lawful, but incense is +something terrible, and cannot be allowed; and then the newspapers tell +you that on the very next Sunday there is more incense in that +particular church which has been complained of than there ever had been +before. + +I will tell hon. Gentlemen opposite what it is that endangers the State +Church now--I mean a State Church like this in England, against which +there is no violent political assault. It is the prevalence of zeal. +Whenever zeal creeps into a State Church, it takes naturally different +forms--one strongly Evangelical, another strongly High Church or +Ritualist--and these two species of zeal work on and on in opposition, +until finally there comes a catastrophe, and it is found that it is not +Mr. Miall and the Liberation Society, although they have prepared men's +minds not to dread it, but it is something wholly different, within the +Church itself, that causes the disruption of the Church. The Scottish +disruption did not take place from any assaults from without--it took +place from zeal and difficulties within; and if you could keep the whole +of the Church of England perfectly harmonious within its own borders, it +would take a very daring prophet who would undertake to point out the +time when it would be disestablished. + +We will confine ourselves, therefore, to Ireland, and I will ask hon. +Gentlemen this: I believe Gentlemen opposite do not usually reject the +view which we entertain, that the abolition of the State Church in +Ireland would tend to lessen the difficulties of governing that country. +I think there is scarcely an hon. Gentleman on the other side, who has +not some doubt of his previous opinions, some slight misgiving on this +point, and some disposition to accept our view of the case. Well, why +should you be afraid? Even children, we know, can be induced, by +repeated practice, to go into a dark room without fear. You have always, +somebody said the other night, lions in the path; but I will not dignify +them with the name of lions--they are but hobgoblins. Now, when you have +seen and handled them, as you have a great many times since I have been +in the habit of speaking face to face with you, these things are found, +after all, to be only hobgoblins; you have learned, after all, that they +are perfectly harmless; and when you thought we were doing you harm, and +upsetting the Constitution, you have found that, after all, we were +doing you good, and that the Constitution was rather stronger than it +was before. Let me point out for a moment some of these changes that +were found at the time to be of great difficulty, but have been found to +be very wise and good afterwards. + +When I came into this House, nearly twenty-five years ago, our colonial +system was wholly different from what it is now. It has been changed: +Sir William Molesworth and Joseph Hume were mainly the authors in +Parliament of that change. Well, all our colonies, as we all admit, are +much more easily governed and much more loyal than they were in those +days. Turning then to our financial system--and I really do not want to +offend any one by mentioning this--you know that our financial system, +since Sir Robert Peel came into office in 1841, has been completely +changed, and yet the revenue of the country is larger, which I regard as +a misfortune--and not only larger, but more secure by far, if Parliament +requires it, than it was at any previous period of our history. Take the +old protective system, which the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. +Newdegate) and some others have not forgotten. Free-trade was a +frightful monster. But the protective system is gone; and now every +candid man amongst you will admit that industry, being more free +throughout the country, is better rewarded, and that the land, which you +said would go out of cultivation, and become of no value, sells for a +higher price in the market than it ever brought before. + +There are two other points on which I wish to add a word. One was +mentioned last night after many Members had gone home. The balance of +power was once considered the beginning and end of our foreign policy, +and I am not sure that there are not some old statesmen in the other +House who believe in it even yet. What was done last night? The noble +Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire, who comes up from Scotland brimfull +of enthusiasm for impossible projects, proposed to put in words which +had been rejected from the preamble of the Mutiny Bill relating to the +preservation of the balance of power. What did one of your most +distinguished Ministers, the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for War, +say in reference to the proposition? He said he thought it singular that +the hon. Member for Chatham should have proposed to omit the words, +because they really meant nothing, but he was still more surprised that +the noble Lord should have asked to have them replaced. Well, thus you +see that this balance of power is gone, and yet England, I will +undertake to say, under the rational and fair administration of foreign +affairs by the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn, is just as much +respected by all foreign Powers as she was when we were ready to meddle +in every stupid quarrel that occurred upon the Continent of Europe. + +Now, there is only one other thing to which I will advert--the question +of the representation. You know, in 1830, there was almost no +representation. There were a few towns in which there was almost +universal suffrage, and many scores of rotten boroughs; in fact, the +whole system was in such a state of congestion that it could not be +tolerated any longer, and we had a small, but which might have been a +very large revolution, in amending that state of things. Last year you, +who had seen this hobgoblin for years, who had thought, I have no doubt, +many of you, that I was very unwise and very rash in the mode in which I +had proposed to extend the suffrage; last year you found out that it was +not so monstrous a thing after all, and you became almost enthusiastic +in support of the right hon. Gentleman's Reform Bill. Well, you believe +now, and the First Minister, if this was an occasion on which he had to +speak about it, would tell you not to be afraid of what was done,--he +would tell you that, based on the suffrage of a larger portion of your +countrymen, Parliament will henceforth be more strong and more venerated +by the people than ever it has been before. + +If that is true of Parliament, what shall we say of the Throne itself +after all these changes? I will venture to ask, whatever of convenience +there may be in hereditary monarchy, whatever of historic grandeur in +the kingly office, whatever of nobleness in the possessor of the Crown, +in all these things is it not true that everything is at least as fully +recognised by the nation as it ever was at any previous period? I do not +mention these things to reproach anybody here. We all have to learn. +There are many in this House who have been in process of learning for a +good while. I am not sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for South +Lancashire would not admit to us that on this very question of the Irish +Church his opinions have been greatly expanded, and have been ripening +for a series of years. That is greatly to the credit, not only of his +head, but of his heart. We have seen even amongst you a progress in many +things--a progress which is most gratifying to me--that is a very small +matter; but it is a very wholesome indication that the minds of men are +becoming more open to the consideration of great principles in +connection with great public questions. And this gives us promise that +in future we shall have--as, no doubt, we shall have--a Government more +in accordance with public opinion and public interests than we have had +in past times. + +In my opinion, the changes that have been made in our time are the glory +of our time, and I believe that our posterity will regard them as the +natural and blessed fruits of the growth of intelligence in our day. I +mention these things to urge you not to close your ears to the arguments +nor to close your hearts to the impressions of justice which must assail +you with regard to this question which is now being debated so much in +Great Britain and Ireland. I might appeal to a right hon. Gentleman who +perhaps is in the House--the Member for the County of Limerick--who was +at a very remarkable meeting held the other day in Limerick on this very +question. I have heard from sources which cannot, I think, be +questioned, that it was one of the most remarkable meetings held in +Ireland within the last twenty years, or, perhaps, I might say for a +longer period. There was a far more healthy tone of mind, of conduct, of +feeling, of expression, of everything we wish for, but have not known +there for a very long period; and I believe and know--because I am told +by witnesses who cannot be contradicted--that the change arose from the +growing belief that there was a sufficient majority in this House, that +the general opinion of Parliament was sufficiently strong, to enable +this measure of justice and reconciliation to be passed. Now, I ask you, +if, after what has taken place, you are able, unhappily able, to prevent +the progress of the movement which is now on foot for the +disestablishment of the State Church in Ireland, are you not of opinion +that it will create great dissatisfaction; that it will add to the +existing discontent; that it will make those that are hopeful despair; +and that men--rash men, if you like--strong and earnest men, will speak +to those that hitherto have not been rash, and have not been earnest, +and will say, 'You see at last; is this not a proof convincing and +unanswerable, that the Imperial Parliament sitting in London is not +capable of hearing our complaints, and of doing that justice which we as +a people require at its hands?' + +Do not imagine that I am speaking with personal hostility to the right +hon. Gentleman who is your Chief Minister here. Do not imagine for a +moment that I am one of those, if there be any, who are hoping to drive +hon. Gentlemen from that bench in order that I may take one of the +places occupied by them. I would treat this subject as a thing far +beyond and far above party differences. The question comes before the +House, of course, as all these great questions must, as a great party +question, and I am one of the Members of this party; but it does not +follow that all the Members of a party should be actuated by a party +spirit, or by a miserable, low ambition to take the place of a Minister +of the Crown. I say there is something far higher and better than that; +and if ever there was a question presented to Parliament which invited +the exercise of the highest and noblest feelings of Members of the +House, I say this is that question. + +I say, then, do not be alarmed at what is proposed. Let us take this +Irish State Church; let us take it, not with a rude--I am against +rudeness and harshness in legislative action--but if not with a rude, +still with a resolute grasp. If you adopt the policy we recommend, you +will pluck up a weed which pollutes the air. ['Oh! Oh!'] I will give +hon. Gentlemen consolation in the conclusion of the sentence--I say you +will pluck up a weed which pollutes the air; but you will leave a free +Protestant Church, which will be hereafter an ornament and a grace to +all those who may be brought within the range of its influence. Sir, I +said in the beginning of my observations that there are the people of +three kingdoms who are waiting with anxious suspense for the solution of +this question. Ireland waits and longs. I appeal to the right hon. +Gentleman the Member for Limerick; I appeal to that Meeting, the +character of which he can describe, and perhaps may describe, to the +House; and I say that Ireland waits and longs for a great act of +reconciliation. I say, further, that England and Scotland are eager to +make atonement for past crimes and past errors; and I say, yet further, +that it depends upon us, this House of Commons, this Imperial +Parliament, whether that reconciliation shall take place, and whether +that atonement shall at length be made. + + * * * * * + +WAR +WITH +RUSSIA. + +I. + +WAR WITH RUSSIA--THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 31, 1854. + +_From Hansard._ + +[Mr. Bright was opposed to the war with Russia. This speech was spoken +on the day when the message from the Crown announcing the declaration of +war was brought down to the House.] + +There are two reasons which may induce a Member of this House to address +it--he may hope to convince some of those to whom he speaks, or he may +wish to clear himself from any participation in a course which he +believes to be evil. I presume I am one of that small section of the +House to whom the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken (Mr. Layard) has +referred, when he alluded to the small party who objected to the policy +by which this country has arrived at the 'triumphant position which it +now occupies.' In coming forward to speak on this occasion, I may be +told that I am like a physician proposing to prescribe to-day for a man +who died yesterday, and that it is of no use to insist upon views which +the Government and the House have already determined to reject. I feel, +however, that we are entering upon a policy which may affect the +fortunes of this country for a long time to come, and I am unwilling to +lose this opportunity of explaining wherein I differ from the course +which the Government has pursued, and of clearing myself from any +portion of the responsibility which attaches to those who support the +policy which the Government has adopted. + +We are asked to give our confidence to the Administration in voting the +Address to the Crown, which has been moved by the noble Lord the Member +for London, and to pledge our support to them in the war in which the +country is now to engage. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for +Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), on a recent occasion, made use of a term +which differed considerably from what he said in a former debate; he +spoke of this war as a 'just and unnecessary war.' I shall not discuss +the justice of the war. It may be difficult to decide a point like this, +seeing that every war undertaken since the days of Nimrod has been +declared to be just by those in favour of it; but I may at least +question whether any war that is unnecessary can be deemed to be just. I +shall not discuss this question on the abstract principle of peace at +any price, as it is termed, which is held by a small minority of persons +in this country, founded on religious opinions which are not generally +received, but I shall discuss it entirely on principles which are +accepted by all the Members of this House. I shall maintain that when we +are deliberating on the question of war, and endeavouring to prove its +justice or necessity, it becomes us to show that the interests of the +country are clearly involved; that the objects for which the war is +undertaken are probable, or, at least, possible of attainment; and, +further, that the end proposed to be accomplished is worth the cost and +the sacrifices which we are about to incur. I think these are fair +principles on which to discuss the question, and I hope that when the +noble Lord the Member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston) rises during this +debate, he will not assume that I have dealt with it on any other +principles than these. + +The House should bear in mind that at this moment we are in intimate +alliance with a neighbouring Government, which was, at a recent period, +the originator of the troubles which have arisen at Constantinople. I do +not wish to blame the French Government, because nothing could have been +more proper than the manner in which it has retired from the difficulty +it had created; but it is nevertheless quite true that France, having +made certain demands upon Turkey with regard to concessions to the Latin +Church, backed by a threat of the appearance of a French fleet in the +Dardanelles, which demands Turkey had wholly or partially complied with; +Russia, the powerful neighbour of Turkey, being on the watch, made +certain other demands, having reference to the Greek Church; and Russia +at the same time required (and this I understand to be the real ground +of the quarrel) that Turkey should define by treaty, or convention, or +by a simple note, or memorandum, what was conceded, and what were the +rights of Russia, in order that the Government of Russia might not +suffer in future from the varying policy and the vacillation of the +Ottoman Government. + +Now, it seems to me quite impossible to discuss this question without +considering the actual condition of Turkey. The hon. Member for +Aylesbury (Mr. Layard) assumes that they who do not agree in the policy +he advocates are necessarily hostile to the Turks, and have no sympathy +for Turkey. I repudiate such an assumption altogether. I can feel for a +country like that, if it be insulted or oppressed by a powerful +neighbour; but all that sympathy may exist without my being able to +convince myself that it is the duty of this country to enter into the +serious obligation of a war in defence of the rights of that country. +The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton is one of the very few men in +this House, or out of it, who are bold enough to insist upon it that +there is a growing strength in the Turkish Empire. There was a Gentleman +in this House, sixty years ago, who, in the debates in 1791, expressed +the singular opinion which the noble Lord now holds. There was a Mr. +Stanley in the House at that period, who insisted on the growing power +of Turkey, and asserted that the Turks of that day 'were more and more +imitating our manners, and emerging from their inactivity and indolence; +that improvements of every kind were being introduced among them, and +that even printing-presses had been lately established in their +capital.' That was the opinion of a Gentleman anxious to defend Turkey, +and speaking in this House more than sixty years ago; we are now living +sixty years later, and no one now, but the noble Lord, seems to insist +upon the fact of the great and growing power of the Turkish Empire. + +If any one thing is more apparent than another, on the face of all the +documents furnished to the House by the Government of which the noble +Lord is a Member, it is this, that the Turkish Empire is falling, or has +fallen, into a state of decay, and into anarchy so permanent as to have +assumed a chronic character. The noble Lord surely has not forgotten +that Turkey has lost the Crimea and Bessarabia, and its control over the +Danubian Principalities; that the Kingdom of Greece has been carved out +of it; that it has lost its authority over Algiers, and has run great +risk of being conquered by its own vassal the Pasha of Egypt; and from +this he might have drawn the conclusion that the empire was gradually +falling into decay, and that to pledge ourselves to effect its recovery +and sustentation, is to undertake what no human power will be able to +accomplish. I only ask the House to turn to the statements which will be +found nearly at the end of the first of the Blue Books recently placed +on the table of the House, and they will find that there is scarcely any +calamity which can be described as afflicting any country, which is not +there proved to be present, and actively at work, in almost every +province of the Turkish Empire. And the House should bear in mind, when +reading these despatches from the English Consuls in Turkey to the +English Ambassador at Constantinople, that they give a very faint +picture of what really exists, because what are submitted to us are but +extracts of more extended and important communications. It may fairly be +assumed that the parts which are not published are those which described +the state of things to be so bad, that the Government has been unwilling +to lay before the House, and the country, and the world, that which +would be so offensive and so injurious to its ally the Sultan of Turkey. + +But, if other evidence be wanting, is it not a fact that Constantinople +is the seat of intrigues and factions to a degree not known in any other +country or capital in the world? France demands one thing, Russia +another, England a third, and Austria something else. For many years +past our Ambassador at Constantinople has been partly carrying on the +government of that country, and influencing its policy, and it is the +city in which are fought the diplomatic contests of the Great Powers of +Europe. And if I have accurately described the state of Turkey, what is +the position of Russia? It is a powerful country, under a strong +Executive Government; it is adjacent to a weak and falling nation; it +has in its history the evidences of a succession of triumphs over +Turkey; it has religious affinities with a majority of the population of +European Turkey which make it absolutely impossible that its Government +should not, more or less, interfere, or have a strong interest, in the +internal policy of the Ottoman Empire. Now, if we were Russian--and I +put the case to the Members of this House--is it not likely, according +to all the theories I have heard explained when we have been concerned +in similar cases, that a large majority of the House and the country +would be strongly in favour of such intervention as Russia has +attempted? and if I opposed it, as I certainly should oppose it, I +should be in a minority on that question more insignificant than that in +which I have now the misfortune to find myself with regard to the policy +of the Government on the grave question now before us. + +The noble Lord the Member for London has made a statement of the case of +the Government, and in favour of this Address to the Crown; but I +thought it was a statement remarkably feeble in fact and in argument, if +intended as a justification of the course he and his Colleagues have +taken. For the purposes of the noble Lord's defence, the Russian demand +upon Turkey is assumed to be something of far greater importance than I +have been able to discover it to be from a careful examination of the +terms in which it was couched. The noble Lord himself, in one of his +despatches, admits that Russia had reason to complain, and that she has +certain rights and duties by treaty, and by tradition, with regard to +the protection of the Christians in Turkey. Russia asserted these +rights, and wished to have them defined in a particular form; and it was +on the question of the form of the demand, and the manner in which it +should be conceded, that the whole of this unfortunate difference has +arisen. Now, if Russia made certain demands on Turkey, this country +insisted that Turkey should not consent to them; for although the noble +Lord has attempted to show that Turkey herself, acting for herself, had +resolved to resist, I defy any one to read the despatches of Lord +Stratford de Redcliffe without coming to the conclusion that, from the +beginning to the end of the negotiations, the English Ambassador had +insisted, in the strongest manner, that Turkey should refuse to make the +slightest concession on the real point at issue in the demands of the +Russian Government. As a proof of that statement, I may refer to the +account given by Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, in his despatch of the 5th +of May, 1853, of the private interview he had with the Sultan, the +Minister of the Sultan having left him at the door, that the interview +might be strictly private. In describing that interview, Lord Stratford +says, 'I then endeavoured to give him a just idea of the degree of +danger to which his Empire was exposed.' The Sultan was not sufficiently +aware of his danger, and the English Ambassador 'endeavoured to give him +a just idea of it;' and it was by means such as this that he urged upon +the Turkish Government the necessity of resistance to any of the demands +of Russia, promising the armed assistance of England, whatever +consequences might ensue. From the moment that promise was made, or from +the moment it was sanctioned by the Cabinet at home, war was all but +inevitable; they had entered into a partnership with the Turkish +Government (which, indeed, could scarcely be called a Government at +all), to assist it by military force; and Turkey, having old quarrels to +settle with Russia, and old wrongs to avenge, was not slow to plunge +into the war, having secured the co-operation of two powerful nations, +England and France, in her quarrel. + +Now, I have no special sympathy with Russia, and I refuse to discuss or +to decide this question on grounds of sympathy with Russia or with +Turkey; I consider it simply as it affects the duties and the interests +of my own country. I find that after the first proposition for a treaty +had been made by Prince Menchikoff, that envoy made some concession, and +asked only for a _Sened_, or Convention; and when that was +disapproved of, he offered to accept a note, or memorandum merely, that +should specify what should be agreed upon. But the Turk was advised to +resist, first the treaty, then the convention, and then the note or +memorandum; and an armed force was promised on behalf of this country. +At the same time he knew that he would incur the high displeasure of +England and France, and especially of England, if he made the slightest +concession to Russia. It was about the middle of May that Prince +Menchikoff left Constantinople, not having succeeded in obtaining any +concession from the Porte; and it was on the 3rd of July that the +Russian forces crossed the Pruth; thinking, I believe, by making a dash +at the Principalities, to coerce Turkey, and deter her allies from +rendering her the promised support. It has been assumed by some, that if +England had declared war last year, Russia would have been deterred from +any further step, and that the whole matter would have been settled at +once. I, however, have no belief that Russia on the one hand, or England +and France on the other, would have been bullied into any change of +policy by means of that kind. + +I come now to the celebrated 'Vienna note.' I am bound here to say, that +nobody has yet been able clearly to explain the difference between the +various notes Turkey has been advised to reject, and this and other +notes she has been urged to accept. With respect to this particular +note, nobody seems to have understood it. There were four Ambassadors at +Vienna, representing England, France, Austria, and Prussia; and these +four gentlemen drew up the Vienna note, and recommended it to the Porte +as one which she might accept without injury to her independence or her +honour. Louis Napoleon is a man knowing the use of language, and able to +comprehend the meaning of a document of this nature, and his Minister of +Foreign Affairs is a man of eminent ability; and Louis Napoleon and his +Minister agree with the Ambassadors at Vienna as to the character of the +Vienna note. We have a Cabinet composed of men of great individual +capacity; a Cabinet, too, including no less than five Gentlemen who have +filled the office of Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and who may, +therefore, be presumed to understand even the sometimes concealed +meaning of diplomatic phraseology. These five Foreign Secretaries, +backed by the whole Cabinet, concurred with the Ambassadors at Vienna, +and with the Emperor of the French and his Foreign Secretary, in +recommending the Vienna note to the Sultan as a document which he might +accept consistently with his honour, and with that integrity and that +independence which our Government is so anxious to secure for him. What +was done with this note? Passing by the marvellous stupidity, or +something worse, which caused that note not to be submitted to Turkey +before it was sent to St. Petersburg, he would merely state that it was +sent to St. Petersburg, and was accepted in its integrity by the Emperor +of Russia in the most frank and unreserved manner. We were then told--I +was told by Members of the Government--that the moment the note was +accepted by Russia we might consider the affair to be settled, and that +the dispute would never be heard of again. When, however, the note was +sent to Constantinople, after its acceptance by Russia, Turkey +discovered, or thought, or said she discovered, that it was as bad as +the original or modified proposition of Prince Menchikoff, and she +refused the note as it was, and proposed certain modifications. And what +are we to think of these arbitrators or mediators--the four Ambassadors +at Vienna, and the Governments of France and England--who, after +discussing the matter in three different cities, and at three distinct +and different periods, and after agreeing that the proposition was one +which Turkey could assent to without detriment to her honour and +independence, immediately afterwards turned round, and declared that the +note was one which Turkey could not be asked to accede to, and +repudiated in the most formal and express manner that which they +themselves had drawn up, and which, only a few days before, they had +approved of as a combination of wisdom and diplomatic dexterity which +had never been excelled? + +But it was said that the interpretation which Count Nesselrode placed +upon this note made it impossible for Turkey to accede to it. I very +much doubt whether Count Nesselrode placed any meaning upon it which it +did not fairly warrant, and it is impossible to say whether he really +differed at all from the actual intentions of the four Ambassadors at +Vienna. But I can easily understand the course taken by the Russian +Minister. It was this:--seeing the note was rejected by the Turk, and +considering that its previous acceptance by Russia was some concession +from the original demand, he issued a circular, giving such an +explanation or interpretation of the Vienna note as might enable him to +get back to his original position, and might save Russia from being +committed and damaged by the concession, which, for the sake of peace, +she had made. This circular, however, could make no real difference in +the note itself; and notwithstanding this circular, whatever the note +really meant, it would have been just as binding upon Russia as any +other note will be that may be drawn up and agreed to at the end of the +war. Although, however, this note was considered inadmissible, +negotiations were continued; and at the Conference at Olmutz, at which +the Earl of Westmoreland was present, the Emperor of Russia himself +expressed his willingness to accept the Vienna note--not in the sense +that Count Nesselrode had placed upon it, but in that which the +Ambassadors at Vienna declared to be its real meaning, and with such a +clause as they should attach to it, defining its real meaning. + +It is impossible from this fairly to doubt the sincerity of the desire +for peace manifested by the Emperor of Russia. He would accept the note +prepared by the Conference at Vienna, sanctioned by the Cabinets in +London and Paris, and according to the interpretation put upon it by +those by whom it had been prepared--such interpretation to be defined in +a clause, to be by them attached to the original note. But in the +precise week in which these negotiations were proceeding apparently to a +favourable conclusion, the Turkish Council, consisting of a large number +of dignitaries of the Turkish Empire--not one of whom, however, +represented the Christian majority of the population of Turkey, but +inspired by the fanaticism and desperation of the old Mahomedan party-- +assembled; and, fearful that peace would be established, and that they +would lose the great opportunity of dragging England and France into a +war with their ancient enemy the Emperor of Russia, they came to a +sudden resolution in favour of war; and in the very week in which Russia +agreed to the Vienna note in the sense of the Vienna Conference, the +Turks declared war against Russia,--the Turkish forces crossed the +Danube, and began the war, involving England in an inglorious and costly +struggle, from which this Government and a succeeding Government may +fail to extricate us. + +I differ very much from those Gentlemen who condemn the Government for +the tardy nature of their proceedings. I never said or thought that the +Government was not honestly anxious for peace; but I believe, and indeed +I know, that at an early period they committed themselves and the +country to a policy which left the issue of peace or war in other hands +than their own--namely, in the hands of the Turks, the very last hands +in which I am willing to trust the interests and the future of this +country. In my opinion, the original blunder was committed when the +Turks were advised to resist and not to concede; and the second blunder +was made when the Turks were supported in their rejection of the Vienna +note; for the moment the four Powers admitted that their recommendation +was not necessarily to be accepted by the Porte, they put themselves +entirely into the hands of the Turk, and might be dragged into any depth +of confusion and war in which that respectable individual might wish to +involve them. + +The course taken by Turkey in beginning the war was against the strong +advice of her allies; but, notwithstanding this, the moment the step was +taken, they turned round again, as in the case of the Vienna note, and +justified and defended her in the course she had adopted, in defiance of +the remonstrances they had urged against it. In his speech to-night, the +noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) has occupied some time in showing that +Turkey was fully justified in declaring war. I should say nothing +against that view, if Turkey were fighting on her own resources; but I +maintain that, if she is in alliance with England and France, the +opinions of those Powers should at least have been heard, and that, in +case of her refusal to listen to their counsel, they would have been +justified in saying to her, 'If you persist in taking your own course, +we cannot be involved in the difficulties to which it may give rise, but +must leave you to take the consequences of your own acts.' But this was +not said, and the result is, that we are dragged into a war by the +madness of the Turk, which, but for the fatal blunders we have +committed, we might have avoided. + +There have been three plans for dealing with this Turkish question, +advocated by as many parties in this country. The first finds favour +with two or three Gentlemen who usually sit on the bench below me--with +a considerable number out of doors--and with a portion of the public +press. These persons were anxious to have gone to war during last +summer. They seem actuated by a frantic and bitter hostility to Russia, +and, without considering the calamities in which they might involve this +country, they have sought to urge it into a great war, as they imagined, +on behalf of European freedom, and in order to cripple the resources of +Russia. I need hardly say that I have not a particle of sympathy with +that party, or with that policy. I think nothing can be more unwise than +that party, and nothing more atrocious than their policy. But there was +another course recommended, and which the Government has followed. War +delayed, but still certain--arrangements made which placed the issue of +war in other hands than in those of the Government of this country--that +is the policy which the Government has pursued, and in my opinion it is +fatal to Turkey, and disastrous to England. There is a third course, and +which I should have, and indeed have all along recommended--that war +should have been avoided by the acceptance on the part of Turkey either +of the last note of Prince Menchikoff, or of the Vienna note; or, if +Turkey would not consent to either, that then she should have been +allowed to enter into the war alone, and England and France--supposing +they had taken, and continued to take, the same view of the interests of +Western Europe which they have hitherto taken--might have stood aloof +until the time when there appeared some evident danger of the war being +settled on terms destructive of the balance of power; and then they +might have come in, and have insisted on a different settlement. I would +either have allowed or compelled Turkey to yield, or would have insisted +on her carrying on the war alone. + +The question is, whether the advantages both to Turkey and England of +avoiding war altogether, would have been less than those which are +likely to arise from the policy which the Government has pursued? Now, +if the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton is right in saying that Turkey +is a growing Power, and that she has elements of strength which +unlearned persons like myself know nothing about; surely no immediate, +or sensible, or permanent mischief could have arisen to her from the +acceptance of the Vienna note, which all the distinguished persons who +agreed to it have declared to be perfectly consistent with her honour +and independence. If she has been growing stronger and stronger of late +years, surely she would have grown still stronger in the future, and +there might have been a reasonable expectation that, whatever +disadvantages she might have suffered for a time from that note, her +growing strength would have enabled her to overcome them, while the +peace of Europe might have been preserved. But suppose that Turkey is +not a growing Power, but that the Ottoman rule in Europe is tottering to +its fall, I come to the conclusion that, whatever advantages were +afforded to the Christian population of Turkey would have enabled them +to grow more rapidly in numbers, in industry, in wealth, in +intelligence, and in political power; and that, as they thus increased +in influence, they would have become more able, in case any accident, +which might not be far distant, occurred, to supplant the Mahomedan +rule, and to establish themselves in Constantinople as a Christian +State, which, I think, every man who hears me will admit is infinitely +more to be desired than that the Mahomedan power should be permanently +sustained by the bayonets of France and the fleets of England. Europe +would thus have been at peace; for I do not think even the most bitter +enemies of Russia believe that the Emperor of Russia intended last year, +if the Vienna note or Prince Menchikoff's last and most moderate +proposition had been accepted, to have marched on Constantinople. +Indeed, he had pledged himself in the most distinct manner to withdraw +his troops at once from the Principalities, if the Vienna note were +accepted; and therefore in that case Turkey would have been delivered +from the presence of the foe; peace would for a time have been secured +to Europe; and the whole matter would have drifted on to its natural +solution--which is, that the Mahomedan power in Europe should eventually +succumb to the growing power of the Christian population of the Turkish +territories. + +The noble Lord the Member for London, and his colleague the noble Lord +the Member for Tiverton, when they speak of the aggrandisement of Russia +relatively to the rest of Europe, always speak of the 'balance of power' +a term which it is not easy to define. It is a hackneyed term--a phrase +to which it is difficult to attach any definite meaning. I wish the +noble Lord would explain what is meant by the balance of power. In 1791, +the whole Whig party repudiated the proposition that Turkey had anything +to do with the balance of power. Mr. Burke, in 1791, when speaking on +that subject, used the following language:-- + + 'He had never heard it said before, that the Turkish Empire was + ever considered as any part of the balance of power in Europe. + They had nothing to do with European policy; they considered + themselves as wholly Asiatic. What had these worse than savages + to do with the Powers of Europe, but to spread war, destruction, + and pestilence among them? The Ministry and the policy which + would give these people any weight in Europe, would deserve all + the bans and curses of posterity. All that was holy in religion, + all that was moral and humane, demanded an abhorrence of + everything which tended to extend the power of that cruel and + wasteful Empire. Any Christian Power was to be preferred to these + destructive savages.' + +Mr. Whitbread, on the same occasion, said:-- + + 'Suppose the Empress at Constantinople, and the Turks expelled + from the European provinces, would any unprejudiced man contend + that by such an event mankind would not be largely benefited? + Would any man contend that the expulsion of a race of beings + whose abominable tyranny proscribed the arts, and literature, and + everything that was good, and great, and amiable, would not + conduce to the prosperity and happiness of the world? He was + convinced it would. This was an event with which the paltry + consideration of the nice adjustment of the balance in Europe was + not to be put in competition, although he was a friend to that + balance on broad and liberal principles. He abhorred the wretched + policy which could entertain a wish that the most luxuriant part + of the earth should remain desolate and miserable that a + particular system might be maintained.' + +And Mr. Fox, when speaking of Mr. Pitt's system, said--and be it +remembered that nobody is so great an authority with the noble Lord the +Member for London as Mr. Fox, whose words I am now about to quote:-- + + 'His (Mr. Pitt's) defensive system was wicked and absurd--that + every country which appeared, from whatever cause, to be growing + great, should be attacked; that all the Powers of Europe should + be confined to the same precise situation in which this defensive + system found them.... Her (Russia's) extent of territory, scanty + revenue, and thin population made her power by no means + formidable to us--a Power whom we could neither attack nor be + attacked by; and this was the Power against which we were going + to war. Overturning the Ottoman Empire he conceived to be an + argument of no weight. The event was not probable; and if it + should happen, it was more likely to be of advantage than + injurious to us.' + +It will probably be said, that these were opinions held by Gentlemen who +sat on that side of the House, and who were ready to advocate any course +that might serve to damage the Ministers of the day. I should be sorry +to think so, especially of a man whose public character is so much to be +admired as that of Mr. Fox; but I will come to a much later period, and +produce authority of a very similar kind. Many hon. Members now in the +House recollect the late Lord Holland, and they all know his sagacity +and what his authority was with the party with which he was connected. +What did he say? Why, so late as the year 1828, when this question was +mooted in the House of Lords, he said:-- + + 'No, my Lords, I hope I shall never see--God forbid I ever should + see--for the proposition would be scouted from one end of England + to another any preparations or any attempt to defend this our + "ancient ally" from the attacks of its enemies. There was no + arrangement made in that treaty for preserving the crumbling and + hateful, or, as Mr. Burke called it, that wasteful and disgusting + Empire of the Turks, from dismemberment and destruction; and none + of the Powers who were parties to that treaty will ever, I hope, + save the falling Empire of Turkey from ruin.' + +I hope it will not be supposed that I am animated by any hostility to +Turkey, in quoting sentiments and language such as this, for I have as +much sympathy with what is just towards that country as any other man +can have; but the question is, not what is just to Turkey, but what is +just to this country, and what this House, as the depositary of the +power of this country, has a right to do with regard to this most +dangerous question. I am, therefore, at liberty to quote from the +statesmen of 1791 and 1828, the political fathers and authorities of the +noble Lord the Member for London, and to say, that if I hold opinions +different from those held by the Government, I am, at least, not +singular in those opinions, for I can quote great names and high +authorities in support of the course I am taking. + +This 'balance of power' is in reality the hinge on which the whole +question turns. But if that is so important as to be worth a sanguinary +war, why did you not go to war with France when she seized upon Algiers? +That was a portion of Turkey not quite so distinct, it is true, as are +the Danubian Principalities; but still Turkey had sovereign rights over +Algiers. When, therefore, France seized on a large portion of the +northern coast of Africa, might it not have been said that such an act +tended to convert the Mediterranean into a French lake,--that Algiers +lay next to Tunis, and that, having conquered Tunis, there would remain +only Tripoli between France and Alexandria, and that the 'balance of +power' was being destroyed by the aggrandisement of France? All this +might have been said, and the Government might easily have plunged the +country into war on that question. But happily the Government of that +day had the good sense not to resist, and the result had not been +disadvantageous to Europe; this country had not suffered from the +seizure of Algiers, and England and France had continued at peace. + +Take another case--the case of the United States. The United States +waged war with Mexico--a war with a weaker State--in my opinion, an +unjust and unnecessary war. If I had been a citizen of the American +Republic, I should have condemned that war; but might it not have been +as justly argued that, if we allowed the aggressive attacks of the +United States upon Mexico, her insatiable appetite would soon be turned +towards the north--towards the dependencies of this Empire--and that the +magnificent colonies of the Canadas would soon fall a prey to the +assaults of their rapacious neighbour? But such arguments were not used, +and it was not thought necessary to involve this country in a war for +the support of Mexico, although the Power that was attacking that +country lay adjacent to our own dominions. + +If this phrase of the 'balance of power' is to be always an argument for +war, the pretence for war will never be wanting, and peace can never be +secure. Let any one compare the power of this country with that of +Austria now, and forty years ago. Will any one say that England, +compared with Austria, is now three times as powerful as she was thirty +or forty years ago? Austria has a divided people, bankrupt finances, and +her credit is so low that she cannot borrow a shilling out of her own +territories; England has a united people, national wealth rapidly +increasing, and a mechanical and productive power to which that of +Austria is as nothing. Might not Austria complain that we have disturbed +the 'balance of power' because we are growing so much stronger from +better government, from the greater union of our people, from the wealth +that is created by the hard labour and skill of our population, and from +the wonderful development of the mechanical resources of the kingdom, +which is seen on every side? If this phrase of the 'balance of power' +the meaning of which nobody can exactly make out, is to be brought in on +every occasion to stimulate this country to war, there is an end to all +hope of permanent peace. + +There is, indeed, a question of a 'balance of power' which this country +might regard, if our statesmen had a little less of those narrow views +which they sometimes arrogantly impute to me and to those who think with +me. If they could get beyond those old notions which belong to the +traditions of Europe, and cast their eyes as far westward as they are +now looking eastward, they might there see a power growing up in its +gigantic proportions, which will teach us before very long where the +true 'balance of power' is to be found. This struggle may indeed begin +with Russia, but it may end with half the States of Europe; for Austria +and Prussia are just as likely to join with Russia as with England and +France, and probably much more so; and we know not how long alliances +which now appear very secure, may remain so; for the circumstances in +which the Government has involved us are of the most critical character, +and we stand upon a mine which may explode any day. Give us seven years +of this infatuated struggle upon which we are now entering, and let the +United States remain at peace during that period, and who shall say what +will then be the relative positions of the two nations? Have you read +the Reports of your own Commissioners to the New York Exhibition? Do you +comprehend what is the progress of that country, as exhibited in its +tonnage, and exports, and imports, and manufactures, and in the +development of all its resources, and the means of transit? There has +been nothing like it hitherto under the sun. The United States may +profit to a large extent by the calamities which will befall us; whilst +we, under the miserable and lunatic idea that we are about to set the +worn-out Turkish Empire on its legs, and permanently to sustain it +against the aggressions of Russia, are entangled in a war. Our trade +will decay and diminish--our people, suffering and discontented, as in +all former periods of war, will emigrate in increasing numbers to a +country whose wise policy is to keep itself free from the entanglement +of European politics--to a country with which rests the great question, +whether England shall, for any long time, retain that which she +professes to value so highly--her great superiority in industry and at +sea. + +This whole notion of the 'balance of power' is a mischievous delusion +which has come down to us from past times; we ought to drive it from our +minds, and to consider the solemn question of peace or war on more +clear, more definite, and on far higher principles than any that are +involved in the phrase the 'balance of power.' What is it the Government +propose to do? Let us examine their policy as described in the message +from the Crown, and in the Address which has been moved to-night. As I +understand it, we are asked to go to war to maintain the 'integrity and +independence of the Ottoman Empire'--to curb the aggressive power of +Russia--and to defend the interests of this country. + +These are the three great objects to which the efforts and resources of +this country are to be directed. The noble Lord the Member for London +is, I think, the author of the phrase 'the integrity and independence' +of Turkey. If I am not mistaken, he pledged himself to this more than a +year ago, when he was Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in a +letter to somebody at Newcastle-on-Tyne, in answer to an Address from +certain enthusiasts in that town, who exhorted the Government to step in +for the support of the Ottoman Empire. But what is the condition of that +Empire at this moment? I have already described to the House what it +would have been if my policy had been adopted--if the thrice-modified +note of Prince Menchikoff had been accepted, or if the Vienna note had +been assented to by the Porte. But what is it now under the protection +of the noble Lord and his Colleagues? At the present moment there are no +less than three foreign armies on Turkish soil: there are 100,000 +Russian troops in Bulgaria; there are armies from England and France +approaching the Dardanelles, to entrench themselves on Turkish +territory, and to return nobody knows when. All this can hardly +contribute to the 'independence' of any country. But more than this: +there are insurrections springing up in almost every Turkish province, +and insurrections which must, from the nature of the Turkish Government, +widely extend; and it is impossible to describe the anarchy which must +prevail, inasmuch as the control heretofore exercised by the Government +to keep the peace is now gone, by the withdrawal of its troops to the +banks of the Danube; and the licence and demoralization engendered by +ages of bad government will be altogether unchecked. In addition to +these complicated horrors, there are 200,000 men under arms; the state +of their finances is already past recovery; and the allies of Turkey are +making demands upon her far beyond anything that was required by Russia +herself. Can anything be more destructive of the 'integrity and +independence' of Turkey than the policy of the noble Lord? + +I have seen only this day a letter in the Times from its Correspondent +at Constantinople, which states that Lord Stratford de Redcliffe and one +of the Pashas of the Porte had spent a whole night in the attempt to +arrange concessions which her allies had required on behalf of the +Christian population of Turkey. The Christians are to be allowed to hold +landed property; the capitation tax is to be abolished--for they are +actually contending for the abolition of that which the hon. Member for +Aylesbury (Mr. Layard) says is a positive benefit to those upon whom it +is imposed; and the evidence of Christians is to be admitted into courts +of justice. But the _Times_' Correspondent asks, what is the use of +a decree at Constantinople, which will have no effect in the provinces?-- +for the judges are Turks of the old school, and they will have little +sympathy with a change under which a Christian in a court of justice is +made equal with his master the Turk. This Correspondent describes what +Turkey really wants--not three foreign armies on her soil, nor any other +thing which our Government is about to give her, but 'a pure executive, +a better financial administration, and sensible laws;' and it must be +admitted that the true wants of the country are not likely soon to be +supplied. + +Now, so far as regards Turkey herself, and the 'integrity and +independence' of that Empire, I put it seriously to the House--do you +believe, that if the Government and Lord Stratford de Redcliffe had +advised Turkey to accept the last note of Prince Menchikoff, a note so +little different from the others, offered before and since, that it was +impossible to discover in what the distinction consisted; or if the +Government had insisted on Turkey accepting, as the condition of their +co-operation, the Vienna note, either as at first proposed by the +Conference, or with the explanatory definitions with which the Emperor +of Russia at Olmutz offered to accept it, that they would have injured +the 'integrity and independence' of Turkey? Nay, I will not insult you +by asking whether, under such circumstances, that 'integrity and +independence' would not have been a thousand times more secure than it +is at this hour? If that be true, then the 'balance of power' theory has +been entirely overthrown by the policy of the Government, for no one +will argue that Turkey will come out of her present difficulties more +able to cope with the power of Russia than she was before. With her +finances hopelessly exhausted, will she ever again be able to raise an +army of 200,000 men? But there are men, and I suspect there are +statesmen, in this country, and men in office, too, who believe that +Turkey will not be Turkey at the end of this war--that she cannot come +out of it an Ottoman Power--that such a convulsion has been created, +that while we are ready to contend with half the world to support the +'integrity and independence' of the Ottoman Empire, there will shortly +be no Ottoman Empire to take the benefit of the enormous sacrifices we +are about to make. + +But we are undertaking to repress and to curb Russian aggression. These +are catching words; they have been amplified in newspapers, and have +passed from mouth to mouth, and have served to blind the eyes of +multitudes wholly ignorant of the details of this question. If Turkey +has been in danger from the side of Russia heretofore, will she not be +in far greater danger when the war is over? Russia is always there. You +do not propose to dismember Russia, or to blot out her name from the +map, and her history from the records of Europe. Russia will be always +there--always powerful, always watchful, and actuated by the same +motives of ambition, either of influence or of territory, which are +supposed to have moved her in past times. What, then, do you propose to +do? and how is Turkey to be secured? Will you make a treaty with Russia, +and force conditions upon her? But if so, what security have you that +one treaty will be more binding than another? It is easy to find or make +a reason for breaking a treaty, when it is the interest of a country to +break it. + +I recollect reading a statement made by the illustrious Washington, when +it was proposed to land a French army in North America, to assist the +colonies in overthrowing the yoke of this country. Washington was afraid +of them--he did not know whether these allies once landed might not be +as difficult to get rid of as the English troops he was endeavouring to +expel; for, said he, 'whatever may be the convention entered into, my +experience teaches me that nations and Governments rarely abide by +conventions or treaties longer than it is their interest to do so.' So +you may make a treaty with Russia; but if Russia is still powerful and +ambitious--as she certainly will be--and if Turkey is exhausted and +enfeebled by the war--as she certainly will be--then I want to know what +guarantee you have, the moment the resources of Russia have recovered +from the utmost degree of humiliation and exhaustion to which you may +succeed in reducing her, that she will not again insist on terms with +Turkey infinitely more perilous than those you have ruined Turkey by +urging her to refuse? It is a delusion to suppose you can dismember +Russia--that you can blot her from the map of Europe--that you can take +guarantees from her, as some seem to imagine, as easily as you take bail +from an offender, who would otherwise go to prison for three months. +England and France cannot do this with a stroke of the pen, and the +sword will equally fail if the attempt be made. + +But I come now to another point. How are the interests of England +involved in this question? This is, after all, the great matter which +we, the representatives of the people of England, have to consider. It +is not a question of sympathy with any other State. I have sympathy with +Turkey; I have sympathy with the serfs of Russia; I have sympathy with +the people of Hungary, whose envoy the noble Lord the Member for +Tiverton refused to see, and the overthrow of whose struggle for freedom +by the armies of Russia he needlessly justified in this House; I have +sympathy with the Italians, subjects of Austria, Naples, and the Pope; I +have sympathy with the three millions of slaves in the United States; +but it is not on a question of sympathy that I dare involve this +country, or any country, in a war which must cost an incalculable amount +of treasure and of blood. It is not my duty to make this country the +knight-errant of the human race, and to take upon herself the protection +of the thousand millions of human beings who have been permitted by the +Creator of all things to people this planet. + +I hope no one will assume that I would invite--that is the phrase which +has been used--the aggressions of Russia. If I were a Russian, speaking +in a Russian Parliament, I should denounce any aggression upon Turkey, +as I now blame the policy of our own Government; and I greatly fear I +should find myself in a minority, as I now find myself in a minority on +this question. But it has never yet been explained how the interests of +this country are involved in the present dispute. We are not going to +fight for tariffs, or for markets for our exports. In 1791, Mr. Grey +argued that, as our imports from Russia exceeded 1,000,000_l_. +sterling, it was not desirable that we should go to war with a country +trading with us to that amount. In 1853, Russia exported to this country +at least 14,000,000_l_. sterling, and that fact affords no proof of +the increasing barbarism of Russia, or of any disregard of her own +interests as respects the development of her resources. What has passed +in this House since the opening of the present session? We had a large +surplus revenue, and our Chancellor of the Exchequer is an ambitious +Chancellor. I have no hope in any statesman who has no ambition; he can +have no great object before him, and his career will be unmarked by any +distinguished services to his country. + +When the Chancellor of the Exchequer entered office, doubtless he hoped, +by great services to his country, to build up a reputation such as a man +may labour for and live for. Every man in this House, even those most +opposed to him, acknowledged the remarkable capacity which he displayed +during the last session, and the country has set its seal to this--that +his financial measures, in the remission and readjustment of taxation, +were worthy of the approbation of the great body of the people. The +right hon. Gentleman has been blamed for his speech at Manchester, not +for making the speech, but because it differed from the tone of the +speech made by the noble Lord, his colleague in office, at Greenock. I +observed that difference. There can be no doubt that there has been, and +that there is now, a great difference of opinion in the Cabinet on this +Eastern question. It could not be otherwise; and Government has gone on +from one step to another; they have drifted--to use the happy expression +of Lord Clarendon to describe what is so truly unhappy--they have +drifted from a state of peace to a state of war; and to no Member of the +Government could this state of things be more distressing than to the +Chancellor of the Exchequer, for it dashed from him the hopes he +entertained that session after session, as trade extended and the public +revenue increased, he would find himself the beneficent dispenser of +blessings to the poor, and indeed to all classes of the people of this +kingdom. Where is the surplus now? No man dare even ask for it, or for +any portion of it. + +Here is my right hon. Friend and Colleague, who is resolved on the +abolition of the newspaper stamp. I can hardly imagine a more important +question than that, if it be desirable for the people to be instructed +in their social and political obligations; and yet my right hon. Friend +has scarcely the courage to ask for the abolition of that odious tax. I +believe, indeed, that my right hon. Friend has a plan to submit to the +Chancellor by which the abolition of the stamp may be accomplished +without sacrifice to the Exchequer, but that I will not go into at +present. But this year's surplus is gone, and next year's surplus is +gone with it; and you have already passed a Bill to double the income- +tax. And it is a mistake to suppose that you will obtain double the sum +by simply doubling the tax. Many persons make an average of their +incomes, and make a return accordingly. The average will not be +sustained at the bidding of Parliament; and profits that were +considerable last year, will henceforth show a great diminution, or will +have vanished altogether. I mention this for the benefit of the country +gentlemen, because it is plain that real property, lands and houses, +must bear the burden of this war; for I will undertake to say, that the +Chancellor of the Exchequer will prefer to leave that bench, and will +take his seat in some other quarter of the House, rather than retrace +the steps which Sir Robert Peel took in 1842. He is not the promoter of +this war; his speeches have shown that he is anxious for peace, and that +he hoped to be a Minister who might dispense blessings by the remission +of taxes to the people; and I do not believe the right hon. Gentleman +will consent to be made the instrument to reimpose upon the country the +Excise duties which have been repealed, or the Import duties which in +past times inflicted such enormous injury upon trade. The property-tax +is the lever, or the weapon, with which the proprietors of lands and +houses in this kingdom will have to support the 'integrity and +independence' of the Ottoman Empire. Gentlemen, I congratulate you, that +every man of you has a Turk upon his shoulders. + +The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Layard) spoke of our 'triumphant +position'--the position in which the Government has placed us by +pledging this country to support the Turks. I see nothing like a triumph +in the fact, that in addition to our many duties to our own country, we +have accepted the defence of twenty millions or more of the people of +Turkey, on whose behalf, but, I believe, not for their benefit, we are +about to sacrifice the blood and treasure of England. But there are +other penalties and other considerations. I will say little about the +Reform Bill, because, as the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) is aware, I +do not regard it as an unmixed blessing. But I think even hon. Gentlemen +opposite will admit that it would be well if the representation of the +people in this House were in a more satisfactory state, and that it is +unfortunate that we are not permitted, calmly and with mutual good +feeling, to consider the question, undisturbed by the thunder of +artillery and undismayed by the disasters which are inseparable from a +state of war. + +With regard to trade, I can speak with some authority as to the state of +things in Lancashire. The Russian trade is not only at an end, but it is +made an offence against the law to deal with any of our customers in +Russia. The German trade is most injuriously affected by the uncertainty +which prevails on the continent of Europe. The Levant trade, a very +important branch, is almost extinguished in the present state of affairs +in Greece, Turkey in Europe, and Syria. All property in trade is +diminishing in value, whilst its burdens are increasing. The funds have +fallen in value to the amount of about 120,000,000_l_. sterling, +and railway property is quoted at about 80,000,000_l_. less than +was the case a year ago. I do not pretend to ask the hon. Member for +Aylesbury (Mr. Layard) to put these losses, these great destructions of +property, against the satisfaction he feels at the 'triumphant position' +at which we have arrived. He may content himself with the dream that we +are supporting the 'integrity and independence' of Turkey, though I +doubt whether bringing three foreign armies on her soil, raising +insurrections in her provinces, and hopelessly exhausting her finances, +is a rational mode of maintaining her as an independent Power. + +But we are sending out 30,000 troops to Turkey, and in that number are +not included the men serving on board the fleets. Here are 30,000 lives! +There is a thrill of horror sometimes when a single life is lost, and we +sigh at the loss of a friend, or of a casual acquaintance! But here we +are in danger of losing--and I give the opinions of military men and not +my own merely--10,000, or it may be 20,000 lives, that may be sacrificed +in this struggle. I have never pretended to any sympathy for the +military profession--but I have sympathy for my fellow-men and fellow- +countrymen, where-ever they may be. I have heard very melancholy +accounts of the scenes which have been witnessed in the separations from +families occasioned by this expedition to the East. But it will be said, +and probably the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton will say, that it is +a just war, a glorious war, and that I am full of morbid sentimentality, +and have introduced topics not worthy to be mentioned in Parliament. But +these are matters affecting the happiness of the homes of England, and +we, who are the representatives and guardians of those homes, when the +grand question of war is before us, should know at least that we have a +case--that success is probable--and that an object is attainable, which +may be commensurate with the cost of war. + +There is another point which gives me some anxiety. You are boasting of +an alliance with France. Alliances are dangerous things. It is an +alliance with Turkey that has drawn us into this war. I would not advise +alliances with any nation, but I would cultivate friendship with all +nations. I would have no alliance that might drag us into measures which +it is neither our duty nor our interest to undertake. By our present +alliance with Turkey, Turkey cannot make peace without the consent of +England and France; and by this boasted alliance with France we may find +ourselves involved in great difficulties at some future period of these +transactions. + +I have endeavoured to look at the whole of this question, and I declare, +after studying the correspondence which has been laid on the table-- +knowing what I know of Russia and of Turkey--seeing what I see of +Austria and of Prussia--feeling the enormous perils to which this +country is now exposed, I am amazed at the course which the Government +have pursued, and I am horrified at the results to which their policy +must inevitably tend. I do not say this in any spirit of hostility to +the Government. I have never been hostile to them. I have once or twice +felt it my duty to speak, with some degree of sharpness, of particular +Members of the Administration, but I suspect that in private they would +admit that my censure was merited. But I have never entertained a party +hostility to the Government. I know something of the difficulties they +have had to encounter, and I have no doubt that, in taking office, they +acted in as patriotic a spirit as is generally expected from Members of +this House. So long as their course was one which I could support, or +even excuse, they have had my support. But this is not an ordinary +question; it is not a question of reforming the University of Oxford, or +of abolishing 'ministers' money' in Ireland; the matter now before us +affects the character, the policy, and the vital interests of the +Empire; and when I think the Government have committed a grievous--it +may be a fatal error--I am bound to tell them so. + +I am told indeed that the war is popular, and that it is foolish and +eccentric to oppose it. I doubt if the war is very popular in this +House. But as to what is, or has been popular, I may ask, what was more +popular than the American war? There were persons lately living in +Manchester who had seen the recruiting party going through the principal +streets of that city, accompanied by the parochial clergy in full +canonicals, exhorting the people to enlist to put down the rebels in the +American colonies. Where is now the popularity of that disastrous and +disgraceful war, and who is the man to defend it? But if hon. Members +will turn to the correspondence between George III and Lord North, on +the subject of that war, they will find that the King's chief argument +for continuing the war was, that it would be dishonourable in him to +make peace so long as the war was popular with the people. Again, what +war could be more popular than the French war? Has not the noble Lord +(Lord John Russell) said, not long ago, in this House, that peace was +rendered difficult if not impossible by the conduct of the English press +in 1803? For myself, I do not trouble myself whether my conduct in +Parliament is popular or not. I care only that it shall be wise and just +as regards the permanent interests of my country, and I despise from the +bottom of my heart the man who speaks a word in favour of this war, or +of any war which he believes might have been avoided, merely because the +press and a portion of the people urge the Government to enter into it. + +I recollect a passage of a distinguished French writer and statesman +which bears strongly upon our present position: he says,-- + + 'The country which can comprehend and act upon the lessons which + God has given it in the past events of its history, is secure in + the most imminent crises of its fate.' + +The past events of our history have taught me that the intervention of +this country in European wars is not only unnecessary, but calamitous; +that we have rarely come out of such intervention having succeeded in +the objects we fought for; that a debt of 800,000,000_l_. sterling +has been incurred by the policy which the noble Lord approves, +apparently for no other reason than that it dates from the time of +William III; and that, not debt alone has been incurred, but that we +have left Europe at least as much in chains as before a single effort +was made by us to rescue her from tyranny. I believe, if this country, +seventy years ago, had adopted the principle of nonintervention in every +case where her interests were not directly and obviously assailed, that +she would have been saved from much of the pauperism and brutal crimes +by which our Government and people have alike been disgraced. This +country might have been a garden, every dwelling might have been of +marble, and every person who treads its soil might have been +sufficiently educated. We should indeed have had less of military glory. +We might have had neither Trafalgar nor Waterloo; but we should have set +the high example of a Christian nation, free in its institutions, +courteous and just in its conduct towards all foreign States, and +resting its policy on the unchangeable foundation of Christian morality. + + * * * * * + +RUSSIA. + +II. + +ENLISTMENT OF FOREIGNERS BILL. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, DECEMBER 22, 1854. +_From Hansard._ +At this hour of the night I shall not make a speech; but I wish to say a +few things in answer to the noble Lord the Member for the City of +London, who has very strangely misapprehended--I am not allowed to say +'misrepresented'--what fell from my hon. Friend the Member for the West +Riding. The noble Lord began by saying that my hon. Friend had charged +the Government with making war in something of a propagandist spirit in +favour of nationalities throughout the Continent; but that was the exact +contrary of what my hon. Friend did say. What he said was, that that +portion of the people of this country who had clamoured for war, and +whose opinion formed the basis whereupon the Government grounded their +plea for the popularity of the war, were in favour of the setting up of +nationalities; but my hon. Friend showed that the Government had no such +object, and the war no such tendency. The next misrepresentation was, +that my hon. Friend had spoken in favour of the _status quo_; but +there is not the shadow of a shade of truth in that statement. What my +hon. Friend said was precisely the contrary; but the noble Lord, arguing +from his own misapprehension of my hon. Friend's meaning, went on then +to show that it would not do to establish a peace on the _status +quo_ terms, thus knocking down a position which nobody had set up. +The noble Lord was also guilty of another mistake with reference to an +observation of my hon. Friend as to the character and position of the +Turks. We have referred over and over again to a monstrous statement +made by the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton as to the improvement of +the Turks--a statement which is contradicted by all facts. Tonight, with +a disingenuousness which I should be ashamed to use in argument--[Cries +of 'Oh!']--it is very well for hon. Gentlemen who come down to cheer a +Minister to cry 'Oh!' but is it a fact, or is it not? Is there a man who +hears me who does not know perfectly well, when the noble Lord said that +the Turks had improved within the last twenty years more than any other +nation in Europe, that the statement referred not to the Christians, +whose rights and interests we were defending, but to the character of +the Mahometan population? But to-night, with a disingenuousness which I +could not condescend to be guilty of, the noble Lord has assumed that +the statement referred to the condition of the Christian population. + +The real question was, as every hon. Gentleman knows, What was the +condition of the Mahometan? and there is not a Gentleman in this House +who is not aware that the Mahometan portion of the population of the +Turkish Empire is in a decaying and dying condition, and that the two +great Empires which have undertaken to set it on its legs again will +find it about the most difficult task in which they ever were engaged. +What do your own officers say? Here is an extract from a letter which +appeared in the papers the other day:-- + + They ought to set these rascally Turks to mend them [the roads], + which might easily be done, as under the clay there is plenty of + capital stone. They are, I am sorry to say, bringing more of + these brutes into the Crimea, which makes more mouths to feed, + without being of any use. + +I have seen a private letter, too, from an able and distinguished +officer in the Crimea, who says-- + + 'Half of us do not know what we are fighting for, and the other + half only pray that we may not be fighting for the Turks.' + +The only sign of improvement which has been manifested that I know of +is, that on a great emergency, when their Empire, under the advice of +Her Majesty's Government, and that of their Ambassador, was placed in a +situation of great peril, the Turks managed to make an expiring effort, +and to get up an army which the Government, so far as I can hear, has +since permitted to be almost destroyed. + +Another sign of improvement is, perhaps, that they have begun to wear +trowsers; but as to their commerce, their industry, or their revenue, +nothing can be in a worse condition. You have now two Empires attempting +to set the Turkish Empire up again; and it is said that a third great +Empire is also about to engage in the task. The Turk wants to borrow +money, but he cannot borrow it to-day in the London market at less than +from eight to nine per cent. Russia, on the other hand, is an Empire +against which three great Empires, if Turkey can be counted one still, +are now combined, and it is said that a fourth great Empire will soon +join the ranks of its enemies. But Russian funds at this moment are very +little lower than the stock of the London and North-Western Railway. You +have engaged to set this Turkish Empire up again--a task in which +everybody knows you must fail--and you have persuaded the Turk to enter +into a contest, one of the very first proceedings in which has forced +him to mortgage to the English capitalist a very large portion--and the +securest portion, too, of his revenues--namely, that which he derives +from Egypt, amounting in fact, in a fiscal and financial point of view, +to an actual dismemberment of the Turkish Empire, by a separation of +Egypt from it. Why is it that the noble Lord has tonight come forward as +the defender of the Greeks? Is it that + +he has discovered, when this war is over, that Turkey, which he has +undertaken to protect, the Empire which he is to defend and sustain +against the Emperor of Russia, will have been smothered under his +affectionate embrace? or, to quote the powerful language of the +_Times_, when the Vienna note was refused, that whatever else may +be the result of the war in which Turkey has plunged Europe, this one +thing is certain, that at its conclusion there may be no Turkish Empire +to talk about? + +The noble Lord quoted a letter which I wrote some time ago, and which, +like others who have discussed it, he found it not easy to answer. In +that letter I referred to Don Pacifico's case; and I am sure that the +noble Lord the Member for Tiverton will remember a despatch which he +received through Baron Brunnow, from Count Nesselrode, on that subject,-- +a despatch which I think the House will forgive my reading to it on the +present occasion, as it gives the Russian Government's estimation of +that act of 'material guarantee' on the part of England:-- + + 'It remains to be seen whether Great Britain, abusing the + advantages which are afforded her by her immense maritime + superiority, intends henceforth to pursue an isolated policy, + without caring for those engagements which bind her to the other + Cabinets; whether she intends to disengage herself from every + obligation, as well as from all community of action, and to + authorize all great Powers, on every fitting opportunity, to + recognize to the weak no other rule but their own will, no other + right but their own physical strength. Your Excellency will + please to read this despatch to Lord Palmerston, and to give him + a copy of it.' + +If there had been no more temper--no more sense--no more unity in the +negotiations which took place with regard to this matter, in all +probability we might have had a war about it. It was a case in which +Russia might have gone to war with this country, if she had been so +minded. But Russia did not do that. Fortunately, the negotiations that +ensued settled that question without bringing that disaster upon Europe. +But the noble Lord again misinterpreted my hon. Friend (Mr. Cobden). I +appeal to every Gentleman who heard my hon. Friend's speech whether the +drift of it was not this--that in this quarrel, Prussia, and certainly +Austria, had a nearer and stronger interest than England, and that he +could not understand why the terms which Austria might consider fair and +safe for herself and for Turkey, might not be accepted with honour by +this country and by France? Now, I am prepared to show that, from the +beginning of this dispute, there is not a single thing which Austria +wished to do in the course of the negotiations, or even which France +wished to do, that the Government of the noble Lord did not +systematically refuse its assent to, and that the noble Lord's +Government is alone responsible for the failure in every particular +point which took place in these negotiations. I will not trouble the +House by going into the history of these negotiations now, further than +just to state two facts, which will not take more than a few sentences. +The noble Lord referred to the note which Russia wanted Turkey to sign, +known as the Menchikoff note; but the noble Lord knows as well as I do, +that when the French Ambassador, M. De la Cour, went to Constantinople, +or whilst he was at Constantinople, he received express instructions +from the Emperor of the French not to take upon himself the +responsibility of inciting the Sultan to reject that note, ['No.'] I +know this is the fact, because it is stated in Lord Cowley's despatch to +the noble Lord. + +I am expressing no opinion on the propriety of what was here done; I +simply state the fact: and it was through the interference of Lord +Stratford de Redcliffe--acting, I presume, in accordance with +instructions from our Cabinet, and promising the intervention of the +fleets--that the rejection of that note was secured. The next fact I +have to mention is this. When in September, last year, the last +propositions were drawn up by Counts Buol and Nesselrode, and offered at +Olmütz by the Emperor, as a final settlement of the question, although +Austria and Prussia were in favour of those propositions; though Lord +Westmoreland himself said (I do not quote his exact words, but their +substance) that they were of such a nature as might be received; thus +indicating his favourable opinion of them; and though, likewise, the +Emperor of the French himself declared that they guarded all the points +in which England and France were concerned (for this was stated by Count +Walewski when he said that the Emperor was prepared to order his +Ambassador at Constantinople to sign them along with the other +Ambassadors, and to offer them to the Porte in exchange for the Vienna +note), nevertheless, the Earl of Clarendon wrote, not in a very +statesmanlike manner in such an emergency, but in almost a contemptuous +tone, that our Government would not, upon any consideration, have +anything further to do with the Vienna note. The rejection, first of the +amended Menchikoff note, and then of the Olmütz note, was a policy +adopted solely by the Government of this country, and only concurred in, +but not recommended, by the French Government and the other Governments +of Europe. Whether this policy was right or wrong, there can be no doubt +of the fact; and I am prepared to stake my reputation for accuracy and +for a knowledge of the English language on this interpretation of the +documents which have been laid before us. That being so, on what +pretence could we expect that Austria should go to war in company with +us for objects far beyond what she thought satisfactory at the +beginning? or why should we ask the Emperor of the French to go to war +for objects which he did not contemplate, and to insist on conditions +which, in the month of September of last year, he thought wholly +unnecessary? + +But one fact more I hope the House will allow me to state. There is a +despatch in existence which was never produced to the people of this +country, but which made its first appearance in a St. Petersburg +newspaper, and was afterwards published in the Paris journals--a +despatch in which the Emperor of the French, or his Minister, urged the +Russian Government to accept the Vienna note on the express ground--I +give the exact words--that 'its general sense differed in nothing from +the sense of the original propositions of Prince Menchikoff.' Why, Sir, +can there be dissimulation more extraordinary--can there be guilt more +conclusive than that this Government should act as it did, after it had +recommended the Emperor of Russia to accept the Vienna note? For the +noble Lord has told us, over and over again, that the Government of +England concurred in all the steps taken by the French Government. The +House will allow me to read the very words of the despatch, for, after +all, this is no very small matter. I have an English translation, but +the French original is underneath, and any hon. Gentleman who chooses +may see it. The despatch is from M. Drouyn de Lhuys, the French Foreign +Minister, who states:-- + + 'That which the Cabinet of St. Petersburg ought to desire is an + act of the Porte, which testifies that it has taken into serious + consideration the mission of Prince Menchikoff, and that it + renders homage to the sympathies which an identity of religion + inspires in the Emperor Nicholas for all Christians of the + Eastern rite.' + +And farther on:-- + + 'They [the French Government] submit it to the Cabinet of St. + Petersburg with the hope that it will find that its general sense + differs in nothing from the sense of the proposition presented by + Prince Menchikoff.' + +The French words are:-- + + 'Que son sens général ne diffère en rien du sens du projet + présenté par M. le Prince Menchikoff.' + +It then goes on:-- + + 'And that it gives it satisfaction on all the essential points of + its demands. The slight variation in the form of it will not be + observed by the masses of the people, either in Russia or in + Turkey. To their eyes, the step taken by the Porte [that is, in + accepting it] will preserve all the signification which the + Cabinet of St. Petersburg wishes to give it; and His Majesty the + Emperor Nicholas will appear to them always as the powerful and + respected protector of their religious faith.' + +This despatch was written, recommending _la note Française_; which +is the basis of, and is in reality and substance the same thing with, +the Vienna note; but, up to this moment, neither the Government of +France nor the Government of which the noble Lord is a Member has for an +instant denied the justice--I do not say the extent or degree--but the +justice of the claim made on the part of the Russian Government against +the Turks; and now they turn round upon their own note and tell you that +there was a different construction put upon it. Was there any +construction put upon it, which was different from the recommendation +here made and the argument used by the French Government? No; and the +whole of that statement is a statement that is delusive, and if I were +not in this House I would characterize it by a harsher epithet. I say +now what I stated in March last, and what I have since said and written +to the country, that you are making war against the Government which +accepted your own terms of peace; and I state this now only for the +purpose of urging upon the House and upon the Government that you are +bound at least, after making war for many months, to exact no further +terms from the State with which you are at war, than such as will give +that security which at first you believed to be necessary; and that if +you carry on a war for vengeance--if you carry on a war for conquest--if +you carry on a war for purposes of Government at home, as many wars have +been carried on in past times, I say you will be guilty of a heinous +crime, alike in the eyes of God and of man. + +One other remark perhaps the House will permit me to make. The noble +Lord spoke very confidently to-night; and a very considerable portion of +his speech--hoping, as I do, for the restoration of peace at some time +or another--was to me not very satisfactory. I think that he would only +be acting a more statesmanlike part if, in his speeches, he were at +least to abstain from those trifling but still irritating charges which +he is constantly making against the Russian Government. I can conceive +one nation going to war with another nation; but why should the noble +Lord say, 'The Sovereign of that State does not allow Bibles to be +circulated--he suppressed this thing here, and he put down something +else there'? What did one of the noble Lord's present colleagues say of +the Government of our ally? Did he not thank God that his despotism +could not suppress or gag our newspaper press, and declare that the +people of France were subject to the worst tyranny in Europe? These +statements from a Minister--from one who has been Prime Minister, and +who, for aught I know, may be again Prime Minister--show a littleness +that I did not expect from a statesman of this country, whose fate and +whose interests hang on every word the noble Lord utters, and when the +fate of thousands, aye, and of tens of thousands, may depend on whether +the noble Lord should make one false step in the position in which he is +now placed. + +And when terrible calamities were coming upon your army, where was this +Government? One Minister was in Scotland, another at the sea-side, and +for six weeks no meeting of the Cabinet took place. I do not note when +Cabinets are held--I sometimes observe that they sit for four or five +hours at a time, and then I think something is wrong--but for six +weeks, or two months, it is said no meeting of the Ministers was held. +The noble Lord President was making a small speech on a great subject +somewhere in Cumberland. At Bedford he descanted on the fate of empires, +forgetting that there was nothing so likely to destroy an empire as +unnecessary wars. At Bristol he was advocating a new History of England, +which, if impartially written, I know not how the noble Lord's policy +for the last few months will show to posterity. The noble Lord the +Member for Tiverton undertook a more difficult task--a labour left +unaccomplished by Voltaire--and, when he addressed the Hampshire +peasantry, in one short sentence he overturned the New Testament and +destroyed the foundations of the Christian religion. + +Now, Sir, I have only to speak on one more point. My hon. Friend the +Member for the West Riding, in what he said about the condition of the +English army in the Crimea, I believe expressed only that which all in +this House feel, and which, I trust, every person in this country +capable of thinking feels. When I look at Gentlemen on that bench, and +consider all their policy has brought about within the last twelve +months, I scarcely dare trust myself to speak of them, either in or out +of their presence. We all know what we have lost in this House. Here, +sitting near me, very often sat the Member for Frome (Colonel Boyle). I +met him a short time before he went out, at Mr. Westerton's, the +bookseller, near Hyde Park Corner. I asked him whether he was going out? +He answered, he was afraid he was; not afraid in the sense of personal +fear--he knew not that; but he said, with a look and a tone I shall +never forget, 'It is no light matter for a man who has a wife and five +little children.' The stormy Euxine is his grave; his wife is a widow, +his children fatherless. On the other side of the House sat a Member, +with whom I was not acquainted, who has lost his life, and another of +whom I knew something (Colonel Blair). Who is there that does not +recollect his frank, amiable, and manly countenance? I doubt whether +there were any men on either side of the House who were more capable of +fixing the goodwill and affection of those with whom they were +associated. Well, but the place that knew them shall know them no more +for ever. + +I have specified only two; but there are a hundred officers who have +been killed in battle, or who have died of their wounds; forty have died +of disease; and more than two hundred others have been wounded more or +less severely. This has been a terribly destructive war to officers. +They have been, as one would have expected them to be, the first in +valour as the first in place; they have suffered more in proportion to +their numbers than the commonest soldiers in the ranks. This has spread +sorrow over the whole country. I was in the House of Lords when the vote +of thanks was moved. In the gallery were many ladies, three-fourths of +whom were dressed in the deepest mourning. Is this nothing? And in every +village, cottages are to be found into which sorrow has entered, and, as +I believe, through the policy of the Ministry, which might have been +avoided. No one supposes that the Government wished to spread the pall +of sorrow over the land; but this we had a right to expect, that they +would at least show becoming gravity in discussing a subject the +appalling consequences of which may come home to individuals and to the +nation. I recollect when Sir Robert Peel addressed the House on a +dispute which threatened hostilities with the United States,--I +recollect the gravity of his countenance, the solemnity of his tone, his +whole demeanour showing that he felt in his soul the responsibility that +rested on him. + +I have seen this, and I have seen the present Ministry. There was the +buffoonery at the Reform Club. Was that becoming a matter of this grave +nature? Has there been a solemnity of manner in the speeches heard in +connection with this war--and have Ministers shown themselves statesmen +and Christian men when speaking on a subject of this nature? It is very +easy for the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton to rise and say that I +am against war under all circumstances; and that if an enemy were to +land on our shores, I should make a calculation as to whether it would +be cheaper to take him in or keep him out, and that my opinion on this +question is not to be considered either by Parliament or the country. I +am not afraid of discussing the war with the noble Lord on his own +principles. I understand the Blue Books as well as he; and, leaving out +all fantastic and visionary notions about what will become of us if +something is not done to destroy or to cripple Russia, I say--and I say +it with as much confidence as I ever said anything in my life--that the +war cannot be justified out of these documents; and that impartial +history will teach this to posterity if we do not comprehend it now. + +I am not; nor did I ever pretend to be, a statesman; and that character +is so tainted and so equivocal in our day, that I am not sure that a +pure and honourable ambition would aspire to it. I have not enjoyed for +thirty years, like these noble Lords, the honours and emoluments of +office. I have not set my sails to every passing breeze. I am a plain +and simple citizen, sent here by one of the foremost constituencies of +the Empire, representing feebly, perhaps, but honestly, I dare aver, the +opinions of very many, and the true interests of all those who have sent +me here. Let it not be said that I am alone in my condemnation of this +war, and of this incapable and guilty Administration. And, even if I +were alone, if mine were a solitary voice, raised amid the din of arms +and the clamours of a venal press, I should have the consolation I have +to-night--and which I trust will be mine to the last moment of my +existence--the priceless consolation that no word of mine has tended to +promote the squandering of my country's treasure or the spilling of one +single drop of my country's blood. + + * * * * * + +RUSSIA. + +III. + +NEGOTIATIONS AT VIENNA. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 23, 1855. + +_From Hansard._ + +[On February 22 Lord Palmerston announced in the House of Commons that +Mr. Gladstone, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Sidney Herbert, the +Colonial Secretary, Mr. Cardwell, the President of the Board of Trade, +and Sir James Graham, the First Lord of the Admiralty, had resigned the +offices which they had accepted a fortnight before. The ground of this +secession was the impression entertained by the above-named personages +that the Committee of Inquiry moved for by Mr. Roebuck was equivalent to +a vote of censure on them, as they had formed part of the Government of +Lord Aberdeen, whose conduct of the Russian war was impugned by the +appointment of the Committee. The places vacated by these secessions +were filled up on February 28.] + +I am one of those forming the majority of the House, I suspect, who are +disposed to look upon our present position as one of more than ordinary +gravity. I am one, also, of those, not probably constituting so great a +majority of the House, who regret extremely the circumstances which have +obliged the right hon. Gentlemen who are now upon this bench to secede +from the Government of the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton. I do not +take upon me for a moment to condemn them; because I think, if there be +anything in which a man must judge for himself, it is whether he should +take office if it be offered to him, whether he should secede from +office, whether he should serve under a particular leader, or engage in +the service of the Crown, or retain office in a particular emergency. In +such cases I think that the decision must be left to his own conscience +and his own judgment; and I should be the last person to condemn any one +for the decision to which he might come. I think, however, that the +speech of the right hon. Gentleman is one which the House cannot have +listened to without being convinced that he and his retiring Colleagues +have been moved to the course which they have taken by a deliberate +judgment upon this question, which, whether it be right or wrong, is +fully explained, and is honest to the House and to the country. + +Now, Sir, I said that I regretted their secession, because I am one of +those who do not wish to see the Government of the noble Lord the Member +for Tiverton overthrown. The House knows well, and nobody knows better +than the noble Lord, that I have never been one of his ardent and +enthusiastic supporters. I have often disapproved of his policy both at +home and abroad; but I hope that I do not bear to him, as I can honestly +say that I do not bear to any man in this House--for from all I have +received unnumbered courtesies--any feeling that takes even the tinge of +a personal animosity; and even if I did, at a moment so grave as this, +no feeling of a personal character whatever should prevent me from doing +that which I think now, of all times, we are called upon to do--that +which we honestly and conscientiously believe to be for the permanent +interests of the country. We are in this position, that for a month +past, at least, there has been a chaos in the regions of the +Administration. Nothing can be more embarrassing--I had almost said +nothing can be more humiliating--than the position which we offer to the +country; and I am afraid that the knowledge of our position is not +confined to the limits of these islands. + +It will be admitted that we want a Government; that if the country is to +be saved from the breakers which now surround it, there must be a +Government; and it devolves upon the House of Commons to rise to the +gravity of the occasion, and to support any man who is conscious of his +responsibility, and who is honestly offering and endeavouring to deliver +the country from the embarrassment in which we now find it. We are at +war, and I shall not say one single sentence with regard to the policy +of the war or its origin, and I know not that I shall say a single +sentence with regard to the conduct of it; but the fact is that we are +at war with the greatest military Power, probably, of the world, and +that we are carrying on our operations at a distance of 3,000 miles from +home, and in the neighbourhood of the strongest fortifications of that +great military Empire. I will not stop to criticise--though it really +invites me--the fact that some who have told us that we were in danger +from the aggressions of that Empire, at the same time told us that that +Empire was powerless for aggression, and also that it was impregnable to +attack. By some means, however, the public have been alarmed as if that +aggressive power were unbounded, and they have been induced to undertake +an expedition, as if the invasion of an impregnable country were a +matter of holiday-making rather than of war. + +But we are now in a peculiar position with regard to that war; for, if I +am not mistaken--and I think I gathered as much from the language of the +right hon. Gentleman--at this very moment terms have been agreed upon-- +agreed upon by the Cabinet of Lord Aberdeen; consented to by the noble +Lord the Member for Tiverton when he was in that Cabinet; and ratified +and confirmed by him upon the formation of his own Government--and that +those terms are now specifically known and understood; and that they +have been offered to the Government with which this country is at war, +and in conjunction with France and Austria--one, certainly, and the +other supposed to be, an ally of this country. Now, those terms consist +of four propositions, which I shall neither describe nor discuss, +because they are known to the House; but three of them are not matters +of dispute; and with regard to the other, I think that the noble Lord +the Member for the City of London stated, upon a recent occasion, that +it was involved in this proposition--that the preponderant power of +Russia in the Black Sea should cease, and that Russia had accepted it +with that interpretation. Therefore, whatever difference arises is +merely as to the mode in which that 'preponderant power' shall be +understood or made to cease. Now, there are some Gentlemen not far from +me--there are men who write in the public press--there are thousands of +persons in the United Kingdom at this moment--and I learn with +astonishment and dismay that there are persons even in that grave +assembly which we are not allowed to specify by a name in this House-- +who have entertained dreams--impracticable theories--expectations of +vast European and Asiatic changes, of revived nationalities, and of a +new map of Europe, if not of the world, as a result or an object of this +war. And it is from those Gentlemen that we hear continually, addressed +to the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, language which I cannot well +understand. They call upon him to act, to carry on the war with vigour, +and to prosecute enterprises which neither his Government nor any other +Government has ever seriously entertained; but I would appeal to those +Gentlemen whether it does not become us--regarding the true interests +and the true honour of the country--if our Government have offered terms +of peace to Russia, not to draw back from those terms, not to cause any +unnecessary delay, not to adopt any subterfuge to prevent those terms +being accepted, not to attempt shuffles of any kind, not to endeavour to +insist upon harder terms, and thus make the approach of peace even still +more distant than it is at present? + +Whatever may be said about the honour of the country in any other +relation involved in this affair, this, at least, I expect every man who +hears me to admit--that if terms of peace have been offered they have +been offered in good faith, and shall be in honour and good faith +adhered to; so that if, unfortunately for Europe and humanity, there +should be any failure at Vienna, no man should point to the English +Government and to the authorities and rulers of this Christian country, +and say that we have prolonged the war and the infinite calamities of +which it is the cause. + +I have said that I was anxious that the Government of the noble Lord +should not be overthrown. Will the House allow me to say why I am so? +The noble Lord at the head of the Government has long been a great +authority with many persons in this country upon foreign policy. His +late colleague, and present envoy to Vienna, has long been a great +authority with a large portion of the people of this country upon almost +all political questions. With the exception of that unhappy selection of +an ambassador at Constantinople, I hold that there are no men in this +country more truly responsible for our present position in this war than +the noble Lord who now fills the highest office in the State and the +noble Lord who is now, I trust, rapidly approaching the scene of his +labours in Vienna. I do not say this now to throw blame upon those noble +Lords, because their policy, which I hold to be wrong, they, without +doubt, as firmly believe to be right; but I am only stating facts. It +has been their policy that they have entered into war for certain +objects, and I am sure that neither the noble Lord at the head of the +Government nor his late colleague the noble Lord the Member for London +will shrink from the responsibility which attaches to them. Well, Sir, +now we have those noble Lords in a position which is, in my humble +opinion, favourable to the termination of the troubles which exist. I +think that the noble Lord at the head of the Government himself would +have more influence in stilling whatever may exist of clamour in this +country than any other Member of this House. I think, also, that the +noble Lord the Member for London would not have undertaken the mission +to Vienna if he had not entertained some strong belief that, by so +doing, he might bring the war to an end. Nobody gains reputation by a +failure in negotiation, and as that noble Lord is well acquainted with +the whole question from beginning to end, I entertain a hope--I will not +say a sanguine hope--that the result of that mission to Vienna will be +to bring about a peace, to extricate this country from some of those +difficulties inseparable from a state of war. + +There is one subject upon which I should like to put a question to the +noble Lord at the head of the Government. I shall not say one word here +about the state of the army in the Crimea, or one word about its numbers +or its condition. Every Member of this House, every inhabitant of this +country, has been sufficiently harrowed with details regarding it. To my +solemn belief, thousands--nay, scores of thousands of persons--have +retired to rest, night after night, whose slumbers have been disturbed +or whose dreams have been based upon the sufferings and agonies of our +soldiers in the Crimea. I should like to ask the noble Lord at the head +of the Government--although I am not sure if he will feel that he can or +ought to answer the question--whether the noble Lord the Member for +London has power, after discussions have commenced, and as soon as there +shall be established good grounds for believing that the negotiations +for peace will prove successful, to enter into any armistice? ['No! +no!'] + +I know not, Sir, who it is that says 'No, no,' but I should like to see +any man get up and say that the destruction of 200,000 human lives lost +on all sides during the course of this unhappy conflict is not a +sufficient sacrifice. You are not pretending to conquer territory--you +are not pretending to hold fortified or unfortified towns; you have +offered terms of peace which, as I understand them, I do not say are not +moderate; and breathes there a man in this House or in this country +whose appetite for blood is so insatiable that, even when terms of peace +have been offered and accepted, he pines for that assault in which of +Russian, Turk, French and English, as sure as one man dies, 20,000 +corpses will strew the streets of Sebastopol? I say I should like to ask +the noble Lord--and I am sure that he will feel, and that this House +will feel, that I am speaking in no unfriendly manner towards the +Government of which he is at the head--I should like to know, and I +venture to hope that it is so, if the noble Lord the Member for London +has power, at the earliest stage of these proceedings at Vienna, at +which it can properly be done--and I should think that it might +properly be done at a very early stage--to adopt a course by which all +further waste of human life may be put an end to, and further animosity +between three great nations be, as far as possible, prevented? + +I appeal to the noble Lord at the head of the Government and to this +House; I am not now complaining of the war--I am not now complaining of +the terms of peace, nor, indeed, of anything that has been done--but I +wish to suggest to this House what, I believe, thousands and tens of +thousands of the most educated and of the most Christian portion of the +people of this country are feeling upon this subject, although, indeed, +in the midst of a certain clamour in the country, they do not give +public expression to their feelings. Your country is not in an +advantageous state at this moment; from one end of the kingdom to the +other there is a general collapse of industry. Those Members of this +House not intimately acquainted with the trade and commerce of the +country do not fully comprehend our position as to the diminution of +employment and the lessening of wages. An increase in the cost of living +is finding its way to the homes and hearts of a vast number of the +labouring population. + +At the same time there is growing up--and, notwithstanding what some +hon. Members of this House may think of me, no man regrets it more than +I do--a bitter and angry feeling against that class which has for a long +period conducted the public affairs of this country. I like political +changes when such changes are made as the result, not of passion, but of +deliberation and reason. Changes so made are safe, but changes made +under the influence of violent exaggeration, or of the violent passions +of public meetings, are not changes usually approved by this House or +advantageous to the country. I cannot but notice, in speaking to +Gentlemen who sit on either side of this House, or in speaking to any +one I meet between this House and any of those localities we frequent +when this House is up--I cannot, I say, but notice that an uneasy +feeling exists as to the news which may arrive by the very next mail +from the East. I do not suppose that your troops are to be beaten in +actual conflict with the foe, or that they will be driven into the sea; +but I am certain that many homes in England in which there now exists a +fond hope that the distant one may return--many such homes may be +rendered desolate when the next mail shall arrive. The Angel of Death +has been abroad throughout the land; you may almost hear the beating of +his wings. There is no one, as when the first-born were slain of old, to +sprinkle with blood the lintel and the two sideposts of our doors, that +he may spare and pass on; he takes his victims from the castle of the +noble, the mansion of the wealthy, and the cottage of the poor and the +lowly, and it is on behalf of all these classes that I make this solemn +appeal. + +I tell the noble Lord, that if he be ready honestly and frankly to +endeavour, by the negotiations about to be opened at Vienna, to put an +end to this war, no word of mine, no vote of mine, will be given to +shake his power for one single moment, or to change his position in this +House. I am sure that the noble Lord is not inaccessible to appeals made +to him from honest motives and with no unfriendly feeling. The noble +Lord has been for more than forty years a Member of this House. Before I +was born, he sat upon the Treasury bench, and he has spent his life in +the service of his country. He is no longer young, and his life has +extended almost to the term allotted to man. I would ask, I would +entreat the noble Lord to take a course which, when he looks back upon +his whole political career--whatever he may therein find to be pleased +with, whatever to regret--cannot but be a source of gratification to +him. By adopting that course he would have the satisfaction of +reflecting that, having obtained the object of his laudable ambition-- +having become the foremost subject of the Crown, the director of, it may +be, the destinies of his country, and the presiding genius in her +councils--he had achieved a still higher and nobler ambition: that he +had returned the sword to the scabbard--that at his word torrents of +blood had ceased to flow--that he had restored tranquillity to Europe, +and saved this country from the indescribable calamities of war. + + * * * * * + +RUSSIA. + +IV. + +ON THE PROSECUTION OF THE RUSSIAN WAR. + +HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 7, 1855. + +_From Hansard_. + +[On May 22 Mr. Disraeli moved, 'That this House cannot adjourn for the +Recess without expressing its dissatisfaction with the ambiguous +language and uncertain conduct of Her Majesty's Government in reference +to the great question of peace or war, and that, under these +circumstances, the House feels it a duty to declare that it will +continue to give every support to Her Majesty in the prosecution of the +war, until Her Majesty shall, in conjunction with her allies, obtain for +the country a safe and honourable peace.' This was met by an amendment +from Sir Francis Baring, 'That this House, having seen with regret that +the Conferences at Vienna have not led to a termination of hostilities, +feels it to be a duty to declare that it will continue to give every +support to Her Majesty in the prosecution of the war until Her Majesty +shall, in conjunction with her allies, obtain for this country a safe +and honourable peace.' Mr. Disraeli's resolution was rejected by 319 +votes to 219. Sir F. Baring's motion having become substantive, was met +by an amendment of Mr. Lowe, to the effect, 'That this House having seen +with regret, owing to the refusal of Russia to restrict the strength of +her navy in the Black Sea, that the Conferences at Vienna have not led +to a termination of hostilities, feels it to be a duty to declare that +the means of coming to an agreement on the third basis of negotiation +being by that refusal exhausted, it will continue,' &c. Mr. Lowe's +amendment was negatived and Sir F. Baring's motion carried without a +division on June 8.] + +Last year, when the declaration of war was brought down to the House, I +took the opportunity of addressing the House in opposition to the policy +of the Government of that day. I was told I was too late; and it has +been also said repeatedly in this debate that those who take the views +which I take are too late on this occasion. It seems to be one of the +consequences of the, I would say, irresponsible system of diplomacy in +this country with regard to foreign affairs, that we are never allowed +to discuss a mischief when it is growing, but only when it is completed, +and when no remedy can be applied. And now we are at liberty to discuss +the conduct of the Government in the Conferences at Vienna; and, though +we were repeatedly told from the Treasury bench that it might be +injurious to the public service to discuss what was going on till the +affair was concluded, I suspect the House has come to the conclusion +that we have been pursuing our true duty to the country in the debate +that has taken place. + +We are indebted to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for +Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) for having placed his notice on the table +of the House, and not less to my right hon. Friend and Colleague that +he, before the recess, moved the adjournment of the debate. I am +satisfied myself that the people of this country have no intention to go +wrong either in home or foreign affairs, and it requires only that +questions of this nature should be frequently discussed by the +intelligent men of which this House is composed to set before them the +true state of affairs, and to bring them to a wise opinion with regard +to the policy which is being pursued. Now, we are not discussing the +policy of the war--that is, of the origin of the war. If we were, I +should lay claim to some degree of foresight in the opinion which I +expressed a year ago, for there seems to be a general feeling that the +sacrifices that have already been made are somewhat greater than the +results that have been obtained. I am anxious, in the observations I may +have to address to the House, to impress my opinions on them, if it be +possible to do so, and to lay before my countrymen out of the House that +which I believe involves their true interests with regard to this +question. It is necessary, therefore, to have a basis for our +discussion--to fix what were the objects of the war--to ascertain, if +that be possible, whether those objects have been secured and +accomplished--and whether there can be anything in prospect which we are +likely to gain that will justify the Government and the House in +proceeding further with the war. + +Now, in my observations I am not about to carry on this discussion with +the Gentlemen below me, who are interested in a question which is not +the question before the House. They are interested in some vast, and, as +it seems to me, imaginary scheme that would involve Europe in protracted +and widely-extended hostilities; and I think that, so far as the House +is concerned in discussing the question with the Government, these +Gentlemen are almost, if not altogether, out of court. It appears to me, +if they were logical in their course, finding that the objects of the +Government and the objects of the Government of France were entirely +different from those which they have at heart, and believing, as they +do, that the objects of the allied Governments are not worth a war, that +they ought rather to join us on this bench, and, instead of there being +one Peace bench in the House, there would be two Peace benches, and the +Peace party would clearly gain a considerable accession of strength. The +noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies has stated over and +over again--and, amid the confusion of statements which he and his +Colleagues have made, I think he will not find fault if I assume that +the object of the war is simply the security of the Turkish territory +from the grasp of Russia, and probably from the grasp of any other +Power--the noble Lord has stated that he apprehends that if Russia were +to extend her empire by the possession of Turkey, it would give her a +power that would be unsafe with regard to the other nations of Europe. +When the noble Lord speaks in that vague, and, if I were not speaking of +a man so eminent, I should say, absurd language of the liberties of +Europe and the civilization of the world, I should say he means by that +merely those great objects, so far as they can be conserved by the +conservation of the Turkish territory. + +The noble Lord tells us--we are now getting out of some of the +mystifications--that he has no kind of sympathy that would lead him into +war for the oppressed nationalities of Europe. The noble Lord the Member +for Tiverton (Viscount Palmerston) a few nights ago turned the cold +shoulder to the people of Hungary. He said he thought there could be no +greater calamity to Europe than that Hungary should be separated from +the Austrian Empire. Well, then, we have got rid of Hungary; and, next, +the noble Lord the Member for the City of London (Lord John Russell) +tells us it is quite a mistake to suppose that he ever intended to go to +war for Poland. In fact, he stated--what will be very disheartening to +hon. Gentlemen below me--that he never supposed we were going to war for +such a Quixotic object; that the case of Poland is one that is hopeless, +and therefore it would be madness in England and France--not +indiscretion--not a doubtful undertaking--but positive madness in +England and France to take any part in promoting resistance in that +country. + +Having now got rid of Hungary and Poland, we only require that some +Member of the Cabinet should get up later in the evening--and that I +have no doubt will be the case--to state that it is utterly impossible +for this country to involve itself in hostilities with a view to the +regeneration of any part of Italy. The noble Lord the Member for London +tells us we are not going to war for the sake of conquest; and that, I +think, is a matter which ought to be kept in mind by hon. Gentlemen who +are urging the Government on to a prolonged war. He stated on Tuesday +night, 'Be it always remembered that we are seeking no object of our +own;'--it would be a very odd thing if we were to go to war for the +objects of somebody else--'that we are seeking no object of our own; +that when peace is concluded we shall not have acquired one ell of new +territory, or secured any advantage whatever for ourselves. It is for +Turkey and the general system of Europe that we are struggling.' In +fact, the whole matter always resolves itself into some general +mystification, and at this moment we are, every man of us, almost +entirely in the dark as to what are the ultimate objects of the war. + +One other point that I ought to mention is the question of crippling and +humbling Russia. I am, of course, willing to admit that when people go +to war they are not expected to be very nice in their treatment of each +other, and, if the taking of Sebastopol be an object of those who are in +favour of the war, to take Sebastopol they will inflict any injury they +can upon Russia. But the noble Lord told us last year that he still +intended to leave Russia a great empire. I thought that exceedingly +considerate of the noble Lord, and I understand--I think it has been +stated in the public papers--that it is considered at St. Petersburg a +great condescension on the part of so eminent a statesman. Well, then, +if we are not going to war for nationalities, nor for conquest, nor for +any such crippling of Russia as would be effected by her dismemberment, +we come to this simple question--in the condition in which Turkey has +long existed, what are the means by which the security of Turkey can be +best guaranteed? No man asserts that the security of Turkey can be +absolute, but that it must be partial and conditional. As it is well to +have high authority for these statements, I have here an extract from a +speech made by Lord Clarendon a few nights ago on the Resolution moved +by Lord Grey. The noble Lord then stated:-- + + 'My noble Friend says, and says truly, that the attainment of all + this would offer no security to Turkey. The value of a treaty + must always depend upon the spirit in which it is agreed to, and + the good faith with which it is entered into. No treaty can make + a weak Power like Turkey perfectly safe against a powerful + neighbour immediately in contact with her, if that neighbour is + determined to act the aggressive towards her.'--[3 + _Hansard_, cxxxviii. 1152.] + +Thus Lord Clarendon admits, what is perfectly obvious to the common +sense of all who have heard anything of Russia or Turkey, except from +the lips of the Prime Minister, that what we are seeking to obtain is +not an absolute security for Turkey, but a conditional security, such as +her circumstances, her population, her government, and geographical +position render attainable by her friends and allies. We have now been +fourteen months at war, and two Cabinets--the Cabinets of Lord Aberdeen +and of the present First Minister--I might say four Cabinets, for the +Cabinets of France and Austria must have agreed to the same thing--have +agreed to certain terms, and have offered them to Russia. They have been +accepted as the basis of negotiations, conferences have been opened, and +certain proceedings towards a settlement have taken place; and now I +should like to know whether the terms which were offered were offered in +earnest. Judging of the Cabinet of Lord Aberdeen by the conduct of some +of its Members, and especially of Lord Aberdeen himself, I am certain +that they were sincere in the terms they offered. But the _Times_ +newspaper, which now in its many changes has become the organ and great +stimulant of the present Cabinet, expresses its astonishment that any +person should think that peace was intended by the Conferences at +Vienna. The _Times_ states that the object of the Conferences was +not to bring about a peace, but to shame Austria into becoming a +faithful and warlike ally. + +Now, when the noble Lord the Member for London was sent to Vienna to +negotiate, I confess I was one of those who formed the opinion that the +noble Lord, amid the many eccentricities of his career, would not have +undertaken that mission unless he himself had been honest with regard to +the terms to be offered, and anxious, if possible, to consolidate a +peace. There were, however, certain persons--malicious people, of +course--who found out that it would be convenient to the First Minister +to have the noble Lord at a distance, at least for a time. But I never +adopted that idea. I did not believe that the noble Lord's journey to +Vienna, with a retinue that required him to occupy no less than thirty- +two rooms in one hotel, would have been undertaken unless the noble Lord +considered that the object was a reality, on which the interests of the +country and of Europe depended. I think he would have been the last man +in the country to lend himself to such a miserable hoax as going to +Vienna, not to make peace, but to shame Austria into becoming a faithful +and warlike ally. I assume, therefore, that terms were sincerely +offered, and that those terms gave guarantees which were sufficient, and +a security which was as ample as the circumstances admitted for the +integrity and independence of the Ottoman Empire. It is from that +starting-point that I would discuss this question. + +There are hon. Members in this House who think that even if those terms +were obtained they would still be in no degree a compensation for the +enormous sacrifices which the country has made. I happen to hold the +same opinion, and it was with that conviction that I protested against +going into the war. Indeed, I think that the argument I used a year ago, +that nothing to be obtained in the war could at all approach a +compensation for the enormous sacrifices the country would be called +upon to make, has been greatly strengthened. Well, Sir, the terms +offered are called 'bases:' from which one understands, not that they +are everything, but that they are something capable of what diplomatists +call 'development.' I recollect a question asked of a child at school, +in one of those lessons called 'object lessons,' 'What is the basis of a +batter pudding?' It was obvious that flour was the basis, but the eggs +and the butter and the rest were developments and additions. But if the +bases are capable of development, so I take it for granted that the +meaning of negotiation is not the offering of an _ultimatum_, but +the word involves to every man's sense the probability of concession-- +butter, it may be--but concession of one sort or another. + +I will not go through all the Four Points, because the attention of the +House ought really to be centred upon the third article and the matters +connected with it. The House must remember that this article involves +two most important subjects--first, the territorial guarantee, which if +it were sufficiently secured would be everything the House and the +country required from the war--namely, that the territories of Turkey +shall never be molested, so long as the treaty shall continue, by any of +the great Powers who are parties to such treaty; and, secondly, that the +preponderance of Russia in the Black Sea shall cease. Now, the +territorial guarantee was granted without difficulty. [An hon. Member: +'No.'] Well, no difficulty was made about the territorial guarantee but +this:--Prince Gortchakoff said, very wisely, that he would not enter +into an absolute pledge to go to war in case of any infraction of the +treaty, and the noble Lord who said 'No' will find, when he has examined +the question a little more closely, that it does not make the slightest +difference as to the actual results of a treaty whether a Power +guarantees in the mode proposed by Russia, or in the manner proposed by +the noble Lord the Member for the City of London, because, when an +infraction of a treaty occurs, the power of judging whether any of the +Governments who are parties to such treaty should go to war or not, is +left with each individual Government. If, for example, France stretched +her dominions westward towards Morocco, or eastward towards Tunis or +Tripoli, it would, of course, have been the duty, and would have been in +the power of Russia, even had she accepted the exact terms proposed by +the allies, to judge for herself whether a case had arisen which +required her to go to war, or which justified her in doing so. + +Such a case arose very lately with reference to Schleswig-Holstein. We +were bound, under an ancient treaty, to go to war in the event of the +infraction of certain treaties affecting Schleswig-Holstein; but when +this case occurred the subject was considered by the Government, the +noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) being at the time, I believe, Foreign +Secretary--who most wisely and properly, not only for this country, but +for the interests of Schleswig-Holstein and of Europe, declined to act +upon what was represented to be the strict letter of the treaty, and +England did not engage in war in consequence of the disputes which then +took place. I must say that what seems to me as the most statesmanlike +and elevated declaration in the protocols is the statement of Prince +Gortchakoff, that the blood of Russia is the property of Russia, and +that he will not pledge himself that years hence--it may be even a +century hence--the blood of Russia shall be shed in a cause which, when +the time arrives, may be one which would be altogether unworthy of such +a sacrifice. + +With respect to the question of the Christian protectorate, the House +will probably recollect that it was represented over and over again by +Ministers in this House--it was stated in the speeches of Lord Clarendon +in another place--that the proposition of Russia, as conveyed in the +Menchikoff note, was intended to transfer the virtual sovereignty of +10,000,000 or 12,000,000 of Ottoman subjects to the Czar. If that were +so, the Menchikoff note and all the old protectorate treaties being +abolished, surely the House will consider whether the combination of the +three propositions--the territorial guarantees, the Christian +protectorate, and the Black Sea project--do not give such securities to +Turkey as the condition of Turkey will permit. Now the preponderance of +Russia in the Black Sea, as I think my hon. Friend the Member for the +West Riding (Mr. Cobden) showed very clearly the other evening, is in a +certain sense a fact which all the negotiations in the world cannot +write off. I see that one of the public journals this morning, +commenting upon my hon. Friend's speech, says, 'Yes, truly, the +commercial preponderance of Russia in the Black Sea is a fact which +cannot be denied;' and then proceeds to argue that it does not follow +that Russia should have a political and naval preponderance. But I do +not know any case in which there is a commercial supremacy in a sea like +the Black Sea that is not followed by a preponderance of every other +kind. The question now is, however, how is that preponderance to cease? + +The noble Lord the Member for the City of London referred the other +night to a proposition made by the French Government, but which, I +think, does not appear at all distinctly in the protocols, with regard +to making the Black Sea a neutral sea. I conceive that was so monstrous +a proposition, in the present condition of Europe, that I am surprised +it should have been entertained for a moment by any sensible man. I +supposed it was found so utterly indefensible that it does not appear as +a distinct proposition in the protocols. This proposal of making the +Black Sea a neutral sea gave place to another project, and it appears to +me very like asking Russia, voluntarily or by compulsion, to perform the +operation of amputation upon herself. I maintain that the third article +as offered to Russia in December last could not mean what the noble Lord +offered to Russia at Vienna, because the cessation of preponderance does +not mean the transfer of preponderance, but rather the establishment of +an equilibrium--not the destruction of an equilibrium and the +establishment of preponderance on the other side. + +Some hon. Gentlemen talk as if Russia were a Power which you could take +to Bow Street, and bind over before some stipendiary magistrate to keep +the peace for six months. Russia is a great Power, as England is, and in +treating with her you must consider that the Russian Government has to +consult its own dignity, its own interests, and public opinion, just as +much at least as the Government of this country. Now, what was the +proposition of this third article? The proposal was, that Russia should +have eight ships; but what was the proposition with regard to her +present antagonists? That Turkey should also have eight ships, that +France should have four, and that England should have four; and I +believe that in a preceding protocol, which has not been alluded to in +this debate, it is proposed that the contracting Powers should have two +ships each at the mouth of the Danube, so that if these terms had been +agreed upon, Russia would have had eight ships in the Black Sea, while +Turkey, France, and England would have had twenty. Now, that is not a +mere cessation of a preponderance; it is not the establishment of an +equilibrium; it is a transfer of the supremacy of the Black Sea from +that country which, if any country should be supreme there, has the best +claim--namely, Russia. Besides this, however, Turkey would have had +whatever ships she liked in the Bosphorus, and the allies would also +have had as many ships as they chose in the Mediterranean and the +Levant. + +Now, let us for a moment consider the offer with which Russia met this +proposal. The first proposition was that of the open Straits, which is +disapproved by the hon. Baronet opposite. I am not about to say that +this proposition should have been accepted in preference to the other, +but I think it is the true interest of Europe, and also of Turkey +itself, that the Straits should be thrown open. At any rate, it must be +admitted that the preponderance of Russia, in the sense in which we now +understand it, would be absolutely destroyed if the Straits were thrown +open. Russia made a proposition which appears to me to be highly +satisfactory--that such regulations should be made by the Sultan and his +Government with regard to the position and duration of the anchorages of +ships between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea as would preclude the +possibility, so far as there were means of doing so, of any +inconvenience or danger to Constantinople from the opening of the +Straits. If that had been agreed to, all nations would have been +entitled to the passage of the Straits, and I believe that all nations +would equally have respected the privilege thus granted to them. Now, +suppose these Straits, instead of being one mile wide, had been ten +miles wide, what difference would it make to Turkey? If the Straits were +ten miles wide they would be open. Turkey would have no right to close +them, and European nations would not permit her to pretend to, or to +exercise, any such power; but Constantinople would be no more secure +then than it would be now with the Straits open, whether they were ten +miles wide or one mile wide. If the Straits were open, the consequences +to Constantinople and to Turkey appear to me to be precisely the same. +Turkey would be equally safe; Turkey would be equally menaced. Our +fleets would visit the Black Sea in the course of the season, and the +Russian Black Sea fleet, if it chose, would visit the Mediterranean. +There would be no sort of pretence for wrangling about the Straits; and +the balance of power--if I may use the term--between the fleets of +Russia, France, and England, would be probably the best guarantee that +could be offered for the security of Constantinople and Turkey, so far +as they are in danger of aggression either from the Black Sea or the +Mediterranean. + +But it is said, the Sultan's sovereignty would be menaced--that he has +an undoubted right to close the Straits. I doubt whether that right will +be very long maintained; but if it be maintained, and if you are to +reject any proposition which interferes with the Sultan's sovereignty, I +ask you whether the sovereignty of the Czar is not as dear to him? and +whether, if, in negotiations of this kind, you can find any mode of +attaining your object without inflicting injury upon either the +sovereignty of the Sultan or the Czar, it would not be much more +statesmanlike to adopt it, and so to frame your treaties that neither +should feel that it was subjected to an indignity, and therefore seek to +violate such treaties at the first opportunity? Well, but the second +proposition, which I think the hon. Baronet approved, and which I think +the noble Lord proposed, was, that the Sultan should open the Straits at +will. I ask the House whether that proposition, if accepted, would not +imply that the Sultan could have no other enemy than Russia?--which I +think is doubtful. If the Black Sea were open to the West, and the +Mediterranean closed to the East, surely that is assuming that the +Sultan could have no enemy but Russia. The Sultan could close the +Straits to Russia, but the Western Powers could always proceed to the +Black Sea. The French plan, in my opinion, exposed Turkey far more to +the West than the Russian plan exposed her to the East. Nothing can be +more short-sighted than the notion which the noble Lord the Member for +London started at the conferences, that Turkey could have no enemy but +Russia. In fact, everybody there seemed to be on exceedingly good terms +with himself. The Austrian Minister said nobody would suspect Austria-- +no one could be suspected but Russia. But our experience for many years +will tell us that there has been just as much menace from the West as +from the East--the rapacity of the West is not less perceptible than +that of the East. ['Hear.'] Some one expresses a sentiment in opposition +--it is a gentleman who has never read the Blue Books--he does not know +that almost the whole of this business began in a threat of the most +audacious and insulting character from the Ambassador of France--a +threat to order up the French fleet to the Dardanelles, and further to +land an expedition in Syria to take possession of Jerusalem and the +whole of the Holy Places. Do you mean to tell me, you and the noble Lord +himself, who tried to frighten the country with the notion of the French +fleet coming to invade England, that the fleet which three years ago +threatened England, and more recently threatened the Dardanelles, has +for ever abandoned rapacious desires, and that therefore there will +never again be a menace against Turkey from France? + +I understand, however, there is a very different opinion prevalent upon +the southern shores of the Mediterranean. The Emperor of Morocco, a +potentate somewhat allied to this country, as I am told his empress is +an Irish lady--the Emperor of Morocco, who is not very well versed in +what is going on in this House, has been making inquiries of the most +anxious character as to whether the particular guarantee which the noble +Lord was going to enter into included the territory of Morocco; and I +understand he has not been able to find it out from the most assiduous +study of the Gibraltar newspapers. It so happens that the Governor of +Gibraltar--the noble Lord at the head of the Government corrected me the +other night when I called him an irrational man--has issued an ordinance +by which he has entirely suppressed the newspaper press in that town and +garrison. + +Now we come to the question, which of the propositions would be most +secure? I was very much struck by an observation which fell from my hon. +Colleague (Mr. M. Gibson) in the course of his speech the other night--a +point I think very worthy of the attention of the House and of the +Government; he said the limitation plan was one which must depend for +its efficacy on the will and fidelity of Russia. I am not one of those +who believe Russia to be the treacherous and felonious Power which she +is described to be by the press of this country, as she is described by +the noble Lord to be. I believe the right hon. Baronet the Member for +Southwark gave her the same character. Although Russia may not be more +treacherous than other Powers, when you are making a bargain with her, +it is better you should make the efficacy of the terms depend more on +your own vigilance than on her good faith. The noble Lord the Member for +London has admitted that the limitation plan is, after all, an +inefficient one. He said that Russia might get another ship--perhaps +three or four--and when she had doubled the navy permitted to her, +perhaps the noble Lord would be writing despatches about it, although I +am not sure he would do that. I think it would be holding out a +temptation to buy Mr. Scott Russell's great ship as one of the eight +ships she is to be allowed to keep by the treaty. + +My hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding remarked that Russia might +purchase vessels of large size from the United States, and still keep +within the prescribed limit; but if this great ship, now building in the +Thames, should succeed, as I hope she will, Russia might buy her and +send her into the Black Sea. Somebody says she could not go there +without passing the Straits, but, as she is built for mercantile +purposes, that monster vessel might freely be taken up, and then form +one of the eight ships allowed to Russia. Another proposition has been +alluded to by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Sir W. Clay)--that +pointed out by the Russian Plenipotentiary--that Russia and Turkey +should enter into a friendly treaty between themselves and arrange that +point; but the other diplomatists would not allow it, unless it were +done under the eyes of the conference and bearing the same features of +force and compulsion as their proposal of the limitation possessed. I +was astonished to hear the hon. Baronet, as I understood him, say that, +even although it could be shown that the Russian propositions were +better than our own, he thought the proposition which bore on its face +coercion of Russia was most desirable. A more unstatesman-like and +immoral view upon a great question between nations I have rarely heard +of. [Sir William Clay rose, and was understood to deny the sentiments +imputed to him by the hon. Member.] I understood my hon. Friend so. +Perhaps he did not mean what I thought he did mean, but that was the +conclusion I came to from his argument, and I do not think he will say I +entirely misrepresented him. It has, however, been said by the press +that, whether we were sincere or not at the conference, Russia was not. +Hon. Gentlemen have read in the _Times_ and other papers blowing +the flames of war, that from first to last Russia was treacherous and +insincere. I would put it to the noble Lord the Member for London +whether he can say that was the case, for I observe he said, in his +speech in this House on the 23rd of January last, in answer to a +question from the hon. Member for Aylesbury, or some other Member-- + + 'My hon. Friend will see that by that act the Russian + Plenipotentiary accepted this interpretation as the basis of + negotiation, of course reserving to himself the power, when this + basis shall have been laid down in a definite article, of making + any observations on the part of his Government which he should + think proper.'--[3 _Hansard_ cxxxvi. 911] + +Of course the Russian Plenipotentiary, when he accepted it, did so upon +the understanding that it was the basis of negotiation and discussion, +as no one will deny it was a question capable of being solved in more +ways than one, and it was no indication of insincerity for him to refuse +the precise mode proposed by the Plenipotentiary for England. With +regard to the terms proposed, I should like to read to the House a +statement I have on very good authority as to the language which Prince +Gortchakoff held at Vienna. The statement I have is not to be found in +the protocols, but I believe it may be relied upon as the precise words +he used. The noble Lord insisted, as I understand, that it was no +indignity to ask Russia to limit the number of her ships in the Black +Sea; but I would submit it is precisely the same in principle as if she +were asked to limit the amount of her force in the Crimea to four or six +regiments. Prince Gortchakoff said-- + + 'To ask from an independent Power that it should limit its force, + is to assail its rights of sovereignty on its own territory. It + is with a bad grace that they would sustain the rights of the + Sultan and wish to attack those of the Emperor of Russia. The + proposition to render the Black Sea inaccessible to vessels of + war of all nations is so strange (_si bizarre_) that one is + astonished to see the fate of nations confided to men such as + those who have conceived it. How could it be believed that Russia + would consent to give herself up disarmed at the good pleasure of + the Napoleons and the Palmerstons, who will be able themselves to + have armed forces in the Mediterranean?' + +There was no answer to that. If any diplomatist from this country, under +the same circumstances as Russia was placed in, had consented to terms +such as the noble Lord had endeavoured to force upon Russia--I say, that +if he entered the door of this House, he would be met by one universal +shout of execration, and, as a public man, would be ruined for ever. + +I wish to ask the House this question--whether it has deliberately made +up its mind that this was a proposition which ought to have been imposed +upon Russia? If they have ascertained which is the best--and I rather +think the general opinion is that the proposition of the Government is +the worst; but, assuming that it is not so, and that there may be some +little difference--I want to know what that difference is, and if there +is any difference which can be measured even by the finest diplomatic +and statesmanlike instrument ever invented, I ask, is that difference +worth to this country the incalculable calamities which a prolonged war +must bring upon us? I am of opinion that, with the territorial guarantee +and the abolition of the Christian protectorate, either the terms +proposed by the noble Lord or by Prince Gortchakoff would have been as +secure for Turkey as it is possible under existing circumstances for +Turkey to be by any treaty between the great Powers of Europe. And, +recollect that we have been thrown a little off the original +proposition, for when that proposition was first agreed to in the +Cabinet of Lord Aberdeen I am satisfied in my own mind that it meant +something very like that which the Russians themselves have proposed. + +If we take this first protocol of the conference, and look to the speech +made by Count Buol and to the proposition he made, you will find the +third article runs in this language: 'The treaty of July 13, 1841, shall +be revised with the double object,' and so on. But what is the meaning +of revising the treaty of 1841? The treaty has only one object, which is +to guarantee to the Turk the right he has claimed since his possession +of Constantinople--namely, that the Straits should be closed under the +guarantee of the Powers, except in case of war. Therefore, when the +Aberdeen Government, of which the noble Lords were Members, originally +agreed upon these terms, their object was that the Black Sea should be +thrown open, or, at least, that the closing of the Straits should be +relaxed; and I presume that it was not until after it was known that, +while Russia had no objection to the opening of the Straits, Turkey was +very much opposed to it, that it was found necessary to change the terms +and bring them forward in another form. But, surely, if this be so, the +House and the Government should be chary indeed of carrying on a +prolonged war with Russia, Russia having been willing to accept a +proposition made originally by us, and which I believe to be the best +for Turkey and for the interests of Europe. If, I say, this be so, was +the Government justified in breaking off these negotiations, because +that really is the issue which this House is called upon to try? Can +they obtain better terms? If the terms are sufficient for Turkey they +ought not to ask for better ones. I do not say they may not get better +terms. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding (Mr. +Cobden), that England and France, if they choose to sacrifice 500,000 +men, and to throw away 200,000,000_l_. or 300,000,000_l_. of +treasure, may dismember the Russian Empire. But I doubt whether this +would give better terms for Turkey--I am sure it would not give better +terms for England and France. Now, what has it cost to obtain all this? + +And here I must be permitted to say one word with regard to the course +taken by those right hon. Gentlemen who have recently taken their seats +on this bench, and whose conduct on this question has been the cause of +great debate, and of language which I think the state of the case has +not wholly justified. I presume it will be admitted that these right +hon. Gentlemen at least know the object of the war as well as any other +men in this House. I presume, too, that, entertaining as they do a very +serious idea of the results of a prolonged war, they are at liberty to +come to the conclusion that certain terms, to which they themselves were +parties, are sufficient; and if this be the conviction at which they +have arrived, surely no Member of this House will say that, because they +were Members of a Cabinet some time ago which went into this war, +therefore they should be forbidden to endeavour to avert the +incalculable calamities which threaten their country, but should be +expected to maintain a show of consistency, for which they must +sacrifice everything that an honest man would hold dear. Have these men +gained anything in popularity with the country, or even with the Members +of this House, by the course they have taken? + +I am almost ashamed to say anything in the defence of those who are so +capable of explaining and defending their own conduct in this matter; +but I may be pardoned if I rejoice that men ranking high as statesmen, +powerful by their oratory, distinguished by their long services, have +separated themselves from that rash, that inexcusable recklessness +which, I say, marks the present Government, and are anxious to deliver +their country from the dangers which surround it. My hon. Friends below +me--and I am quite sure not one of them will suppose that I speak from +the mere wish to oppose them in any way; they are personal friends of +mine, and it pains me now to differ from them; but hon. Members seem to +think, when they are looking a long way off for the objects to be gained +by war, that a man who looks at home is not a friend to his country. Is +war the only thing a nation enters upon in which the cost is never to be +reckoned? Is it nothing that in twelve months you have sacrificed 20,000 +or 30,000 men, who a year ago were your own fellow-citizens, living in +your midst, and interested, as you are, in all the social and political +occurrences of the day? Is it nothing that, in addition to those lives, +a sum of--I am almost afraid to say how much, but 30,000,000_l_. or +40,000,000_l_. will not be beyond the mark--has already been +expended? And let the House bear in mind this solemn fact--that the four +nations engaged in this war have already lost so many men, that if you +were to go from Chelsea to Blackwall, and from Highgate and Hampstead to +Norwood, and take every man of a fighting age and put him to death--if +you did this you would not sacrifice a larger number of lives than have +already been sacrificed in these twelve months of war. + +Your own troops, as you know, have suffered, during a Crimean winter, +tortures and horrors which the great Florentine hardly imagined when he +wrote his immortal epic. Hon. Members are ready, I know, to say, 'Whose +fault is that?' But if our loss has been less than that of the French, +less than that of the Turks, and less than that of the Russians, it is +fair to assume that, whatever mistakes may have been committed by the +Government, the loss in the aggregate would, even under other +circumstances, have fallen very little short of that which I have +attempted to describe. Are these things to be accounted nothing? We have +had for twelve years past a gradual reduction of taxation, and there has +been an immense improvement in the physical, intellectual, and moral +condition of the people of this country; while for the last two years we +have commenced a career of reimposing taxes, have had to apply for a +loan, and no doubt, if this war goes on, extensive loans are still in +prospect. + +Hon. Members may think this is nothing. They say it is a 'low' view of +the case. But, these things are the foundation of your national +greatness, and of your national duration; and you may be following +visionary phantoms in all parts of the world while your own country is +becoming rotten within, and calamities may be in store for the monarchy +and the nation of which now, it appears, you take no heed. Every man +connected with trade knows how much trade has suffered, how much profits +in every branch of trade--except in contracts arising out of the war-- +have diminished, how industry is becoming more precarious and the reward +for industry less, how the price of food is raised, and how much there +is of a growing pressure of all classes, especially upon the poorest of +the people--a pressure which by-and-by--not just now, when the popular +frenzy is lashed into fury morning after morning by the newspapers-- +[Murmurs]--but I say by-and-by this discontent will grow rapidly, and +you (pointing to the Ministerial bench) who now fancy you are fulfilling +the behests of the national will, will find yourselves pointed to as the +men who ought to have taught the nation better. + +I will not enter into the question of the harvest. That is in the hand +of Providence, and may Providence grant that the harvest may be as +bountiful as it was last year! But the House must recollect that in +1853, only two years ago, there was the worst harvest that had been +known for forty years. Prices were very high in consequence. Last year +the harvest was the greatest ever known, yet prices have been scarcely +lower, and there are not wanting men of great information and of sound +judgment who look with much alarm to what may come--I trust it may not +come--if we should have, in addition to the calamities of war, +calamities arising from a scarcity of food, which may be scarcely less +destructive of the peace and comfort of the population of this country. + +I will ask the House in this state of things whether they are disposed +to place implicit confidence in her Majesty's Ministers? On that (the +Opposition) side of the House there is not, I believe, much confidence +in the Government; and on this side I suspect there are many men who are +wishful that at this critical moment the affairs of the country should +be under the guidance of men of greater solidity and of better judgment. +I will now point out one or two causes which I think show that I am +justified in placing no confidence whatever in her Majesty's Government. +Take for example what they have been doing with Austria. The noble Lord +at the head of the Government has stated to us that it was of European +importance that Hungary should be connected with Austria. The noble Lord +the Member for the City of London said the other night it was of +essential importance that Austria should be preserved as she is--a great +conservative Power in the midst of Europe. Well, but at the same time +this Government has been urging Austria, month after month, to enter +into the same ruinous course which they themselves are disposed to +pursue. They know perfectly well that if Austria were to join either +with Russia on the one hand, or with the Western Powers on the other, in +all human probability this great Empire would no longer remain that +'great conservative Power in the midst of Europe,' but would be stripped +on the one side of her Italian provinces, and of Hungary on the other; +or, if not stripped of these two portions of the Empire, would be +plunged into an interminable anarchy which would prove destructive of +her power. + +What can be more inconsistent than for Ministers to tell us that they +wish Austria to be preserved, and, at the same time, to urge her upon a +course which they know perfectly well must end in her disruption, and in +the destruction of that which they think essential to the balance of +power in Europe? We are told, with regard to our other alliance, that it +is a very delicate topic. It is a very delicate and a very important +topic; but there is another topic still more delicate and important-- +namely, the future of this country with regard to that alliance. I think +we have before now spent 1,000,000,000_l_. sterling, more or less, +for the sake of a French dynasty. At this moment there are French armies +in Rome, in Athens, in Gallipoli, in Constantinople, and in the Crimea, +and the end of all this, I fear, is not yet. It has been repeatedly +stated in this House that the people of France are not themselves +enthusiastic in favour of this war. I would fain hope, whatever else may +happen, that between the people of England and of France an improved and +friendly feeling has grown up. But, as far as the war is concerned, your +alliance depends on one life. The present dynasty may be a permanent, +but it may be an ephemeral one, and I cannot but think that when men are +looking forward to prolonged warfare they should at least take into +consideration the ground on which they are standing. + +Lord Clarendon has told us, with regard to Russia, that Europe was +standing on a mine, and did not know it. I do not know that he is much +more acute than other people, but I can fancy that Lord Clarendon, by +the blunders of his negotiations and the alliances he has endeavoured to +form, has placed this country on a mine far more dangerous and +destructive than that upon which he thinks Europe was placed by the +colossal power of Russia. There is another point I have to touch upon. +To me it was really frightful to hear the noble Lord the Member for +London (Lord John Russell) tell the House that we are not lighting for +ourselves, but for Germany. I recollect one passage among many in the +noble Lord's speeches upon this point; and, in looking over what has +been said by Ministers, one really wonders that they should have allowed +anything of the kind to appear in _Hansard_. On the 17th of +February last year the noble Lord said,-- + + 'They (England and France) feel that the cause is one, in the + first place, of the independence of Turkey.... It is to maintain + the independence, not only of Turkey, but of Germany and of all + European nations.'--[3 _Hansard_, cxxx. 906.] + +['Hear, hear!'] An hon. Member cheers. What a notion a man must have of +the duties of the 27,000,000 of people living in these islands if he +thinks they ought to come forward as the defenders of the 60,000,000 of +people in Germany, that the blood of England is not the property of the +people of England, and that the sacred treasure of the bravery, +resolution, and unfaltering courage of the people of England is to be +squandered in a contest in which the noble Lord says we have no +interest, for the preservation of the independence of Germany, and of +the integrity, civilization, and something else, of all Europe! + +The noble Lord takes a much better view, as I presume many of us do, of +things past than of things present. The noble Lord knows that we once +did go to war for all Europe, but then we went to war with nearly all +Europe, whereas now we are going to war in alliance with France only, +except the little State of Sardinia, which we have cajoled or coerced +into a course which I believe every friend to the freedom of Italy and +to Sardinia will live to regret. All the rest of Europe--Spain, +Portugal, Italy, Austria, Prussia, Switzerland, Holland, Denmark, and +Sweden--take no part in the war, and yet our Ministers have--what I +should call, if I were not in this House, the effrontery and audacity to +get up and tell us that they are fighting the battle of all Europe, and +that all Europe is leagued with us against the colossal power of Russia. +Europe in the last war did, for the most part, unite with us. We went to +Spain because we were called to go by the patriot Spaniards, but I think +the Duke of Wellington has stated, in his despatches, that if he had +known how little assistance would be received from them he would not +have recommended even that expedition. + +But now, not only has all Europe not united with you, but other +countries will not even allow their men to fight with you. You pay the +Turks to fight their own battles, you enlist men in Germany to fight the +battles of Germany, and the persons engaged in Switzerland and Hamburg +in enlisting men for you are looked upon with suspicion by the +authorities, and I am not sure that some of them have not even been +taken into custody. Why, then, should you pretend that all Europe is +leagued against Russia, and that you have authority to fight the battles +of all Europe against Russia, when the greater part of Europe is +standing by apathetically wondering at the folly you are committing? I +would appeal to the noble Lord the Member for the Colonies--I beg his +pardon, the Member for London--but he has been in so many different +positions lately that it is extremely difficult to identify him. I would +appeal to the noble Lord, because, however much I differ from him, I +have never yet come to the conclusion that he has not at heart the +interest of his country, that he is not capable of appreciating a fair +argument when it is laid before him, and that he has not some sense of +the responsibility as to the political course he takes, and I would ask +him if there be no other world of kingdoms and of nations but that old +world of Europe with which the noble Lord is so disposed to entangle +this country? + +I wish the noble Lord could blot out from his recollection, for a little +time, William III, and all the remembrance of what has been called by +the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) 'the Dutch +conquest,' which is supposed to have enthroned the Whig aristocracy in +this country. I would ask the noble Lord to do this for to-night--for an +hour--for five minutes. There is a country called the United States of +America. Only on Tuesday night the very remarkable circumstance +occurred--and I think the House will be of opinion that it is one worth +notice--of two of those distinguished men being present and listening to +the debates in this House who have occupied the position of President of +the United States; a position, I venture to say, not lower in honour and +dignity than that of any crowned monarch on the surface of the globe. +The United States is precisely the country which is running with us the +race of power and of greatness. Its population will, I believe, at the +next census exceed the population of the United Kingdom; in its +manufactures and general industry it is by far the most formidable rival +that the great manufacturers of this country now have to contend with; +it has, I suppose, ten steamers for one steamer of this country; its +magnificent steamships have crossed the Atlantic in a shorter time than +the steamships of this country; the finest vessels which are at this +moment performing the voyage between England and the Australian colonies +have been built in the United States; therefore, in shipbuilding +industry the United States not only compete with, but in some respects +even excel, this country. Look at our present position and that of the +United States. + +May I entreat the attention of this House, for I am not declaiming, I am +not making a party attack, I am treating of that which, in my mind, is +of vital importance to every family in the kingdom. This year the +Chancellor of the Exchequer told you that he must have a sum of +86,000,000_l_. in order to carry on the various departments of your +Government, and to defray your vast military expenditure. The United +States has at this moment in her Treasury enough, I think, to pay off +all her debt. Deduct the whole amount of the expenses of the Government +of the United States, not only of the general Government, but also of +the thirty independent sovereign States, from the 86,000,000_l_. we +are spending, and you will find that at least 70,000,000_l_. will +be left, which is, therefore, the sum of taxation that we are paying +this year more than the people of the United States. + +Some hon. Gentlemen know what it is to run a horse that has been +weighted. I heard, the other day, of a horse that won every race in +which it started, up to a certain period when it was for the first time +weighted. It then lost the race, and it is reported in the annals of the +turf that it never won a race afterwards. If that be the case with +regard to a horse, it is much more true with regard to a nation. When a +nation has gone a step backwards it is difficult to restore it to its +position; if another nation has passed it in the race, it is almost +impossible for it to regain the ground it has lost. I now speak +particularly to hon. Members opposite, for there are, perhaps, more +Gentlemen upon that than upon this side of the House in the happy +position of owners of vast, productive, beautiful, and, I hope, +unencumbered estates in the various parts of the kingdom. We are now +about ten days' voyage from the United States, and within ten years we +shall probably communicate with that country by telegraph as quickly as +we now do with the Crimea. I hope it will be for a much better object. +The people of the United States are our people, and there are few +families in England which have not friends and relatives connected with +or settled in that country. The inducements for men to remain at home +and their attachment to the place of their birth are necessarily to some +extent weakened by the facility with which they can now travel almost +round the world in a few weeks. + +Do you believe that when the capital of the greatest banking-house in +Lombard street can be transferred to the United States on a small piece +of paper in one post, that the imposition of 70,000,000_l_. of +taxation over and above the taxation of an equal population in the +United States will not have the effect of transferring capital from this +country to the United States, and, if capital, then trade, population, +and all that forms the bone and sinew of this great Empire? I ask hon. +Members to remember what fell on a previous evening from the right hon. +Gentleman the President of the Board of Works. The right hon. Gentleman +talked of the war lasting, perhaps, six years with our resources +undiminished. Now, nothing is easier than for a Cornish Baronet, +possessing I am afraid to say how many thousands a year, a Member of a +Cabinet, or for all those who are surrounded with every comfort, to look +with the utmost complacency upon the calamities which may befall others +not so fortunately situated as themselves. Six years of this war, and +our resources undiminished! Why, Sir, six years of this war, at an +annual expenditure of 70,000,000_l_., give 420,000,000_l_. to +the side of the United States as against the condition of the people of +this country. + +Am I, then, talking of trifles? Am I talking to sane men, that it is +necessary to bring forward facts like these? I am amazed, when the +newspaper press, when public speakers, when Gentlemen on both sides of +this House are so ready to listen and to speak upon questions relating +to Turkey, to Servia, or to Schamyl, that I cannot get the House of +Commons to consider a question so great as the expenditure of +420,000,000_l_., and when we have to consider if we shall trust +that vast issue in the hands of the noble Lords and right hon. Gentlemen +on the Treasury bench. + +I have stated that I have no confidence in the Government, and I will +now tell the House another reason for that want of confidence. My hon. +Friend the Member for the West Riding, on a previous occasion, treated +the right hon. President of the Board of Works very summarily; but I +wish to call the attention of the House to what was said by the right +hon. Gentleman in 1850, in the debate which then took place upon the +foreign policy of the noble Lord now his chief. On that occasion the +right hon. Gentleman told the House that the foreign policy of the noble +Lord now at the head of the Government had made us hated by every party +in every nation in Europe; he said that the noble Lord had excited the +disaffected to revolt, and, having brought upon them the vengeance of +the Governments under which they lived, had then betrayed them. I do not +say that this is true, but I state it upon the authority of a Minister +now in the Cabinet of the noble Lord; but, whether true or not, I cannot +have confidence in the right hon. Gentleman when sitting in a Cabinet to +carry out the foreign policy of the noble Lord. + +I will take the case of another Minister, and I do not think that when +he speaks he will call my observations undeserved. A most distinguished +Member of the Government--the Chancellor of the Exchequer--has been +twice elected within a very short period, once before and once since his +acceptance of office,--I must say that I do not like to see these +changes, when a man one night sits on one bench and another night on +another,--on the 8th of February, 1855, the right hon. Gentleman, +addressing his constituents at Radnor, said:-- + + 'I am not prepared to give my vote in favour of any change in our + policy which would attempt to make England a first-rate military + Power. It seems to me that it would be little short of madness to + attempt any such gigantic undertaking. It is our true wisdom to + limit ourselves to that amount of military force which shall + enable us to defend our own shores, and to protect our great + dependencies abroad. If we can completely defend our own coasts, + it appears to me that the objects of our national policy have + been fulfilled.' + +And then, as if he had in view the language of the noble Lord at the +head of the Government and that of his colleague the Member for London, +he proceeded to say,-- + + 'I wish to see a cessation of that inordinate and senseless + desire which has been sometimes expressed of late, almost + usurping the functions of Providence, that we should go to almost + all parts of the world to redress wrong and to see that right is + done.' + +I say that the right hon. Gentleman had the language of his colleagues +in view, and when he speaks he will no doubt admit that such was the +case. For what did the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies say +when he addressed the baillies and the enthusiastic citizens of +Greenock? He said,-- + + 'It is likewise to be considered, and I trust we shall none of us + forget it, that this country holds an important position among + the nations of the world--that not once, but many times, she has + stood forward to resist oppression, to maintain the independence + of weaker nations, to preserve to the general family of nations + that freedom, that power of governing themselves, of which others + have sought to deprive them. I trust that character will not be + forgotten, will not be abandoned by a people which is now + stronger in means, which is more populous and more wealthy than + it ever has been at any former period. This then, you will agree + with me, is not the period to abandon any of those duties towards + the world, towards the whole of mankind, which Great Britain has + hitherto performed.' + +Now let us see what the right hon. Gentleman said, after having accepted +the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman made +a speech, and it was just after the death of the late Emperor of Russia, +and, in referring to the new Emperor, he said,-- + + 'If, however, it should please this mighty Potentate to continue + in the course of aggression upon which his father had entered, + and if our reasonable hopes of a more pacific policy should be + disappointed, then let him know that in England he will find a + country prepared to maintain its own rights and the rights of + other nations.' + +Observe, 'the rights of other nations;' and he goes on,-- + + 'A country which, although its army has been placed in a perilous + position, and has had to undergo the rigours of a Russian winter, + has its resources unimpaired, has its revenue flourishing, has + its trade substantially undiminished, has its spirit unbroken, + and will be prepared, in case of necessity, to vindicate its own + honour, and to maintain the rights and liberties of Europe.' + +I wish the House to observe what a complete change there is in the +language of the right hon. Gentleman upon these two occasions. Either of +the two opinions which he expressed may be right, but both of them +cannot be so, and I confess that when I find that a Gentleman says one +thing one day, and a month later, when he comes into office, the exact +opposite, I do not think that I can be expected to have that confidence +in him as to be willing to entrust him with the vast issues depending on +the war. + +I will now refer to a colleague of the right hon. Gentleman--one who has +also distinguished himself--I mean the First Lord of the Admiralty. That +right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood) has said nothing upon the subject of +the war, and I have felt that he must entertain great doubts as to its +policy; but, not very long ago, he also addressed his constituents, and +indulged in very hostile and insulting language towards 'our great and +magnanimous ally;' but he, too, has changed his mind; and not long ago +he went down by express train to Folkestone or Dover--I forget which--to +meet in the most friendly, and probably in the most humble manner, the +very potentate whom he had formerly abused. + +If I have disposed of these Gentlemen and shown why I can have no +confidence in them, are there any better reasons why I should have +confidence in those two noble Lords who were the active and restless +spirits in the Cabinet which the noble Lord the Member for London +overthrew? I regard those noble Lords as responsible for the policy of +this war. I am bound to suppose that they acted in accordance with their +conscientious convictions; but, still, the fact of their having embarked +in that policy is no reason why I should have confidence in them. But, +are those two noble Lords men in whom the House and country ought to +place implicit confidence? What of late could be more remarkable than +the caprices of the noble Lord the Member for London? When that noble +Lord was in the Government of Lord Aberdeen he went to Greenock, I think +to Bedford, and certainly to Bristol--and, in fact, he took every +opportunity which offered itself of bringing himself before the public; +and, with his power of speech, his long experience, and eminent +character, did his utmost to stimulate the feelings of the people to a +policy which I believe to be destructive, and which I think the majority +of this House in calm moments does not believe to have been the wisest +which could have been pursued. It certainly appears to me to be +unjustifiable that, while Lord Aberdeen was honestly endeavouring to +bring the negotiations to a peaceful conclusion, the noble Lord was +taking a course which rendered statesmanship valueless in conducting the +foreign policy of the nation. The noble Lord, however, at last brought +his conduct to a climax. The hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. +Roebuck) came forward as a little David with sling and stone--weapons +which he did not even use, but at the sight of which the Whig Goliath +went howling and vanquished to the back benches. + +I am afraid, Sir, to trust myself to speak of the conduct of the noble +Lord on that occasion. I presume that we shall have to wait for the +advent of that Somersetshire historian, whose coming the noble Lord +expects, before we know whether his conduct on that occasion was, what +some persons still call it, treachery to his chief, or whether it arose +from that description of moral cowardice which in every man is the death +of all true statesmanship. But in the year 1853 the noble Lord the +Member for London gave me a strong reason why I should feel no +confidence in his present chief. The House will remember that he then +ejected the present First Minister under whom he now serves from the +Cabinet of which he himself was then the head, and in the explanation +which he made to the House, he told us that men like Lord Grey and Lord +Melbourne, men of age, of authority, and experience, had been able in +some degree to control his noble Friend, but, that he being younger than +the noble Lord, and having been a shorter time on the political stage, +had found it difficult to control him. The description which the noble +Lord might give of his colleague is a little like that which we +occasionally see given of a runaway horse--that he got the bit between +his teeth, and there was no holding him. + +The noble Lord the Member for London was the captain of the State +vessel, and the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton was the mate. But how +is it now? The noble Lord the Member for the City of London has accepted +the position of mate in the most perilous times, in the most tempestuous +weather, and he goes to sea with no chart on a most dangerous and +interminable voyage, and with the very reckless captain whom he would +not trust as mate. Sir, the noble Lord the Member for London has made a +defence of his conduct at the Conferences at Vienna. I am willing to +give him credit that he did then honestly intend peace; but I do think +that when he goes again, and on such a journey, he will do well to leave +some of his historic knowledge behind him. They were indeed historic +fancies. There is nothing to me so out of place as the comparison which +the noble Lord made between the limitation of the Russian fleet in the +Black Sea and the destruction of Dunkirk, or between the condition of +the Black Sea and that of the lakes of North America. The noble Lord can +never have heard of the Falls of Niagara. If there were Falls like them +between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean the cases would be somewhat +similar, for the Russian fleet in the Black Sea would not then be +exposed to the assaults of the vast navies of England or France. When I +allude to this subject, I am reminded of that Welshman whom Shakspeare +immortalised, who found some analogy between a river in Macedon and a +river in Monmouth. He knew the name of the river in Monmouth, and he did +not know the name of the river in Macedon, but he insisted upon the +analogy between them because there were salmon in both. + +Well, Sir, I now come to the noble Lord at the head of the Government. I +do not complain that he is at the head of the Government. The noble Lord +the Member for the City of London had thrown everything into such +inextricable and unlooked-for confusion that any one next door to him +must necessarily occupy the place. But I cannot have confidence in the +noble Viscount, because I cannot but recollect that in 1850 he received +the condemnation of his foreign policy in the other House of Parliament; +and in a speech which I shall never forget, the last and one of the best +ever delivered by the greatest statesman of the time, he received a +similar condemnation, and the noble Viscount only escaped condemnation +by a direct vote of this House by the energetic defence of the noble +Lord the Member for the City of London, and by the stress laid upon many +Members on this side of the House. But only six weeks after this the +noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) presented to the noble Viscount a letter +from his Sovereign, which I cannot but think must have cost him much +pain, and to which I will not refer further, except to say that I do not +know how it is possible, if the contents of that letter were true, that +either the noble Lord or the House can be called upon to place implicit +confidence in the noble Lord the leader of the Government. + +I have observed the noble Viscount's conduct ever since I have had the +honour of a seat in this House, and the noble Viscount will excuse me if +I state the reason why I have often opposed him. The reason is, that the +noble Viscount treats all these questions, and the House itself, with +such a want of seriousness that it has appeared to me that he has no +serious, or sufficiently serious, conviction of the important business +that so constantly comes before this House. I regard the noble Viscount +as a man who has experience, but who with experience has not gained +wisdom--as a man who has age, but who, with age, has not the gravity of +age, and who, now occupying the highest seat of power, has--and I say it +with pain--not appeared influenced by a due sense of the responsibility +that belongs to that elevated position. + +We are now in the hands of these two noble Lords. They are the authors +of the war. It lies between them that peace was not made at Vienna upon +some proper terms. And whatever disasters may be in store for this +country or for Europe, they will lie at the doors of these noble Lords. +Their influence in the Cabinet must be supreme; their influence in this +House is necessarily great; and their influence with the country is +greater than that of any other two statesmen now upon the stage of +political life in England. They have carried on the war. They have, +however, not yet crippled Russia, although it is generally admitted that +they have almost destroyed Turkey. They have not yet saved Europe in its +independence and civilization,--they have only succeeded in convulsing +it. They have not added to the honour and renown of England, but they +have placed the honour and renown of this country in peril. The country +has been, I am afraid, the sport of their ancient rivalry, and I should +be very sorry if it should be the victim of the policy which they have +so long advocated. + +There is only one other point upon which I will trouble the House, if it +will give me its attention. These Ministers--the right hon. Member for +Southwark, the Commissioner of the Board of Works, especially, and +evidently the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I am afraid many other +Members of this House--seem to think little of taxes. Some Members of +this House seem to have no patience with me if I speak of the cost of +the war; but I am obliged to ask its attention to this point. I +recollect reading in the life of Necker, that an aristocratic lady came +to him when he was Finance Minister of Louis XVI, and asked him to give +her 1,000 crowns from the public treasury--not an unusual demand in +those days. Necker refused to give the money. The lady started with +astonishment--she had an eye to the vast funds of the State, and she +asked, 'What can 1,000 crowns be to the King?' Necker's answer was, +'Madam! 1,000 crowns are the taxes of a whole village!' + +I ask hon. Gentlemen what are the taxes of a whole village, and what +they mean? They mean bareness of furniture, of clothing, and of the +table in many a cottage in Lancashire, in Suffolk, and in Dorsetshire. +They mean an absence of medical attendance for a sick wife, an absence +of the school pence of three or four little children--hopeless toil to +the father of a family, penury through his life, a cheerless old age, +and, if I may quote the language of a poet of humble life, at last--'the +little bell tolled hastily for the pauper's funeral.' That is what taxes +mean. The hon. Member for Dorsetshire spoke the other night in a manner +rather flippant and hardly respectful to some of us on this question. +But the labourers of Dorsetshire as well as the weavers and spinners of +Lancashire are toiling, and must toil harder, longer, and with smaller +remuneration for every single 100_l_. that you extract in taxes +from the people in excess of what is necessary for the just requirements +of the Exchequer of the country. I hope I may be permitted to treat the +question on this ground, and I ask the House to recollect that when you +strike down the children in the cottage you attack also the children in +the palace. If you darken the lives and destroy the hopes of the humble +dwellers of the country, you also darken the prospects of those children +the offspring of your Queen, in whom are bound up so much of the +interests and so much of the hopes of the people of this country. If I +defend, therefore, the interests of the people on this point, I do not +the less defend the permanence of the dignity of the Crown. + +We on this bench are not willing to place ourselves alongside of noble +Lords who are for carrying on this war with no definite object and for +an indefinite period, but are ready to take our chance of the verdict of +posterity whether they or we more deserve the character of statesmen in +the course we have taken on this question. The House must know that the +people are misled and bewildered, and that if every man in this House, +who doubts the policy that is being pursued, would boldly say so in this +House and out of it, it would not be in the power of the press to +mislead the people as it has done for the last twelve months. If they +are thus misled and bewildered, is it not the duty of this House to +speak with the voice of authority in this hour of peril? We are the +depositaries of the power and the guardians of the interests of a great +nation and of an ancient monarchy. Why should we not fully measure our +responsibility? Why should we not disregard the small-minded ambition +that struggles for place? and why should we not, by a faithful, just, +and earnest policy, restore, as I believe we may, tranquillity to Europe +and prosperity to the country so dear to us? + + * * * * * + +LETTER OF JOHN BRIGHT +TO ABSALOM WATKIN +ON THE RUSSIAN WAR + +[This letter was originally published with notes containing extracts +from those authorities which confirmed the writer's views. The text of +these notes has been omitted, but the references have been retained. It +has been thought desirable to reprint this letter, as explaining the +policy which Mr. Bright thought it his duty to recommend--a policy which +was as wise and just as it was unfortunately unpopular.--J. E. T. R.] + +[Mr. Absalom Watkin, of Manchester, having invited Mr. Bright to a +meeting about to be held in that city on behalf of the Patriotic Fund, +and having stated that in his opinion the present war was justified by +the authority of _Vattel_, Mr. Bright replied in the subjoined +letter.] + +I think, on further consideration, you will perceive that the meeting on +Thursday next would be a most improper occasion for a discussion as to +the justice of the war. Just or unjust, the war is a fact, and the men +whose lives are miserably thrown away in it have clearly a claim upon +the country, and especially upon those who, by the expression of +opinions favourable to the war, have made themselves responsible for it. +I cannot, therefore, for a moment appear to discourage the liberality of +those who believe the war to be just, and whose utmost generosity, in my +opinion, will make but a wretched return for the ruin they have brought +upon hundreds of families. + +With regard to the war itself, I am not surprised at the difference +between your opinion and mine, if you decide a question of this nature +by an appeal to _Vattel_. The 'law of nations' is not my law, and +at best it is a code full of confusion and contradictions, having its +foundation on custom, and not on a higher morality; and on custom which +has always been determined by the will of the strongest. It may be a +question of some interest whether the first crusade was in accordance +with the law and principles of _Vattel_; but whether the first +crusade was just, and whether the policy of the crusades was a wise +policy, is a totally different question. I have no doubt that the +American war was a just war according to the principles laid down by +writers on the 'law of nations,' and yet no man in his senses in this +country will now say that the policy of George III. towards the American +colonies was a wise policy, or that war a righteous war. The French war, +too, was doubtless just according to the same authorities; for there +were fears and anticipated dangers to be combatted, and law and order to +be sustained in Europe; and yet few intelligent men now believe the +French war to have been either necessary or just. You must excuse me if +I refuse altogether to pin my faith upon _Vattel_. There have been +writers on international law who have attempted to show that private +assassination and the poisoning of wells were justifiable in war: and +perhaps it would be difficult to demonstrate wherein these horrors +differ from some of the practices which are now in vogue. I will not ask +you to mould your opinion on these points by such writers, nor shall I +submit my judgment to that of _Vattel_. + +The question of this present war is in two parts--first, was it +necessary for us to interfere by arms in a dispute between the Russians +and the Turks; and secondly, having determined to interfere, under +certain circumstances, why was not the whole question terminated when +Russia accepted the Vienna note? The seat of war is three thousand miles +away from us. We had not been attacked--not even insulted in any way. +Two independent Governments had a dispute, and we thrust ourselves into +the quarrel. That there was some ground for the dispute is admitted by +the four Powers in the proposition of the Vienna note. [Footnote: +Colonel Rose to Lord John Russell, March 7, 1853--Blue Book, part i. p. +87. Lord Stratford de Redcliffe to the Earl of Clarendon., April 9 and +May 22, 1853--Ibid, part i. pp. 127 and 235. Lord John Russell to Sir G. +H. Seymour, February 9, 1853--Eastern Papers, part v. p. 8. Earl of +Clarendon to Sir G. H. Seymour, April 5, 1853--Ibid, part v. p. 22. Lord +Carlisle's Diary in Turkish and Greek Waters, p. 181.] But for the +English Minister at Constantinople and the Cabinet at home the dispute +would have settled itself, and the last note of Prince Menchikoff would +have been accepted, and no human being can point out any material +difference between that note and the Vienna note, afterwards agreed upon +and recommended by the Governments of England, France, Austria and +Prussia. But our Government would not allow the dispute to be settled. +Lord Stratford de Redcliffe held private interviews with the Sultan--did +his utmost to alarm him--insisted on his rejection of all terms of +accommodation with Russia, and promised him the armed assistance of +England if war should arise. [Footnote: Lord Stratford to the Earl of +Clarendon, May 19, 1853. See, however, a despatch of May 10--Blue Book, +part i. p. 213.] + +The Turks rejected the Russian note, and the Russians crossed the Pruth, +occupying the Principalities as a 'material guarantee.' I do not defend +this act of Russia: it has always appeared to me impolitic and immoral; +but I think it likely it could be well defended out of _Vattel_, +and it is at least as justifiable as the conduct of Lord John Russell +and Lord Palmerston in 1850, when they sent ten or twelve ships of war +to the Piraeus, menacing the town with a bombardment if the dishonest +pecuniary claims made by Don Pacifico were not at once satisfied. +[Footnote: Count Nesselrode to Baron Brunnow, February, 1850.] + +But the passage of the Pruth was declared by England and France and +Turkey not to be a _casus belli_. Negotiations were commenced at +Vienna, and the celebrated Vienna note was drawn up. This note had its +origin in Paris [Footnote: Earl of Westmorland to Lord Clarendon, July +25, 1853--Blue Book, part ii. p. 19.], was agreed to by the Conference +at Vienna, ratified and approved by the Cabinets of Paris and London +[Footnote: Earl of Clarendon to Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, August 2, +1853--Blue Book, part ii. p. 27. Lord Cowley to Lord Clarendon, August +4, 1853--Ibid, part ii. p. 37.], and pronounced by all these authorities +to be such as would satisfy the honour of Russia, and at the same time +be compatible with the 'independence and integrity' of Turkey and the +honour of the Sultan. Russia accepted this note at once [Footnote: Sir +G. H. Seymour to the Earl of Clarendon, August 5, 1853--Blue Book, part +ii. p. 43. Count Nesselrode, August 6, 1853--Ibid, part ii. p. 46.],-- +accepted it, I believe, by telegraph, even before the precise words of +it had been received in St. Petersburgh [Footnote: Sir G. H. Seymour to +Lord Clarendon, August 12, 1853--Blue Book, part ii. p. 50. Count +Nesselrode to Baron Meyendorff, September 7, 1853--Ibid, part ii. p. +101.]. Everybody thought the question now settled; a Cabinet Minister +assured me we should never hear another word about it; 'the whole thing +is at an end,' he said, and so it appeared for a moment. But the Turk +refused the note which had been drawn up by his own arbitrators, and +which Russia had accepted [Footnote: Lord Stratford de Redcliffe to the +Earl of Clarendon, August 13, 1853--Blue Book, part iv. p. 69. Lord +Stratford to the Earl of Clarendon, August 14, 1853--Ibid, part ii. p. +71.]. And what did the Ministers say then, and what did their organ, the +_Times_, say? They said it was merely a difference about words; it +was a pity the Turk made any difficulty, but it would soon be settled +[Footnote: Lord Cowley to Lord Clarendon, from Paris, September 2, 1853-- +Blue Book, part iv. p. 87. Lord Clarendon to Lord Stratford de +Redcliffe, September 10, 1853--Ibid, part iv. p. 95. The _Times_, +September 17, 1853.]. But it was not settled, and why not? It is said +that the Russian Government put an improper construction on the Vienna +note. But it is unfortunate for those who say this, that the Turk placed +precisely the same construction upon it; and further, it is upon record +that the French Government advised the Russian Government to accept it, +on the ground that 'its general sense differed in nothing from the sense +of the proposition of Prince Menchikoff.' [Footnote: Earl of Clarendon +to the Earl of Westmoreland, July 25, 1853--Blue Book, part ii. p. 1. +Count Nesselrode's Memorandum of March 2, 1854, in the _Journal des +Debats_.] It is, however, easy to see why the Russian Government +should, when the Turks refused the award of their own arbitrators, re- +state its original claim, that it might not be damaged by whatever +concession it had made in accepting the award; and this is evidently the +explanation of the document issued by Count Nesselrode, and about which +so much has been said. But, after this, the Emperor of Russia spoke to +Lord Westmoreland on the subject at Olmutz, and expressed his readiness +to accept the Vienna note, with any clause which the Conference might +add to it, explaining and restricting its meaning; [Footnote: Lord +Westmoreland to Lord Clarendon, September 28, 1853--Blue Book, part ii. +p. 129. Lord Cowley to Lord Clarendon, October 4, 1853--Ibid, part ii. +p. 131. Lord Clarendon to Lord Cowley, October 7, 1853--Ibid, part ii. +p. 140. Lord Clarendon to Lord A. Loftus--Ibid, part ii. p. 132.] and he +urged that this should be done at once, as he was anxious that his +troops should re-cross the Pruth before winter. [Footnote: Earl of +Westmoreland, September 14, 1853--Blue Book, part ii. p. 106.] It was in +this very week that the Turks summoned a grand council, and, contrary to +the advice of England and France, determined on a declaration of war. +[Footnote: Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, September 26, 1853--Blue Book, +part ii. p. 130. M. Drouyn de Lhuys to Count Walewski, October 4, 1853-- +Ibid, part ii. p. 136.] + +Now, observe the course taken by our Government. They agreed to the +Vienna note; not fewer than five Members of this Cabinet have filled the +office of Foreign Secretary, and therefore may be supposed capable of +comprehending its meaning: it was a note drawn up by the friends of +Turkey, and by arbitrators self-constituted on behalf of Turkey; they +urged its acceptance on the Russian Government, and the Russian +Government accepted it; there was then a dispute about its precise +meaning, and Russia agreed, and even proposed that the arbitrators at +Vienna should amend it, by explaining it, and limiting its meaning, so +that no question of its intention should henceforth exist. But, the +Turks having rejected it, our Government turned round, and declared the +Vienna note, their own note, entirely inadmissible, and defended the +conduct of the Turks in having rejected it. The Turks declared war, +against the advice of the English and French Governments [Footnote: Lord +Stratford de Redcliffe, September 20, 1853--Blue Book, part ii. pp. 149, +151. Lord Clarendon, October 24, 1853--Ibid, part ii. p. 131. Lord +Stratford, November 17, 1853--Ibid, part ii. pp. 271, 281. Lord +Stratford--Ibid, part ii. p. 288. Lord Clarendon to Lord Stratford, +November 8, 1853--Ibid, part ii. p. 219.]--so, at least, it appears from +the Blue Books; but the moment war was declared by Turkey, our +Government openly applauded it. England, then, was committed to the war. +She had promised armed assistance to Turkey--a country without +government [Footnote: Lord Clarendon to Lord Stratford--Blue Book, part +i. pp. 81, 82. Lord Stratford to M. E. Pisani, June 22, 1853--Ibid, part +i. p. 383. The same to the same, July 4--Ibid, part i. pp. 383, 384.], +and whose administration was at the mercy of contending factions; and +incapable of fixing a policy for herself, she allowed herself to be +dragged on by the current of events at Constantinople. She 'drifted,' as +Lord Clarendon said, exactly describing his own position, into the war, +apparently without rudder and without compass. + +The whole policy of our Government in this matter is marked with an +imbecility perhaps without example. I will not say they intended a war +from the first, though there are not wanting many evidences that war was +the object of at least a section of the Cabinet. A distinguished Member +of the House of Commons said to a friend of mine, immediately after the +accession of the present Government to office, 'You have a war Ministry, +and you will have a war.' But I leave this question to point out the +disgraceful feebleness of the Cabinet, if I am to absolve them from the +guilt of having sought occasion for war. They promised the Turk armed +assistance on conditions, or without conditions. They, in concert with +France, Austria, and Prussia, took the original dispute out of the hands +of Russia and Turkey, and formed themselves into a court of arbitration +in the interests of Turkey; they made an award, which they declared to +be safe and honourable for both parties; this award was accepted by +Russia and rejected by Turkey; and they then turned round upon their own +award, declared it to be 'totally inadmissible,' and made war upon the +very country whose Government, at their suggestion and urgent +recommendation, had frankly accepted it. At this moment England is +engaged in a murderous warfare with Russia, although the Russian +Government accepted her own terms of peace, and has been willing to +accept them in the sense of England's own interpretation of them ever +since they were offered; and at the same time England is allied with +Turkey, whose Government rejected the award of England, and who entered +into the war in opposition to the advice of England. Surely, when the +Vienna note was accepted by Russia, the Turks should have been prevented +from going to war, or should have been allowed to go to war at their own +risk. + +I have said nothing here of the fact that all these troubles have sprung +out of the demands made by France upon the Turkish Government, and urged +in language more insulting than any which has been shown to have been +used by Prince Menchikoff [Footnote: Col. Rose to the Earl of +Malmesbury, November 20, 1852--Blue Book, part i. p. 49. Lord J. Russell +to Lord Cowley, January 28, 1853--Ibid, part i. p. 67.]. I have said +nothing of the diplomatic war which has been raging for many years past +in Constantinople, and in which England has been behind no other Power +in attempting to subject the Porte to foreign influences [Footnote: Blue +Book--Correspondence respecting the Condition of Protestants in Turkey, +1841-51, pp. 5-8.] I have said nothing of the abundant evidence there is +that we are not only at war with Russia, but with all the Christian +population of the Turkish Empire, and that we are building up our +Eastern policy on a false foundation--namely, on the perpetual +maintenance of the most immoral and filthy of all despotisms over one of +the fairest portions of the earth which it has desolated, and over a +population it has degraded but has not been able to destroy. I have said +nothing of the wretched delusion that we are fighting for civilization +in supporting the Turk against the Russian and against the subject +Christian population of Turkey. I have said nothing about our pretended +sacrifices for freedom in this war, in which our great and now dominant +ally is a monarch who, last in Europe, struck down a free constitution, +and dispersed by military violence a national Representative Assembly. + +My doctrine would have been non-intervention in this case. The danger of +the Russian power was a phantom [Footnote: 'There never has been a great +State whose power for external aggression has been more overrated than +Russia. She may be impregnable within her own boundaries, BUT SHE IS +NEARLY POWERLESS FOR ANY PURPOSE OF OFFENCE.'--_Lord Palmerston, in +the House of Commons_, 1853.]; the necessity of permanently upholding +the Mahometan rule in Europe is an absurdity. Our love for civilization, +when we subject the Greeks and Christians to the Turks, is a sham; and +our sacrifices for freedom, when working out the behests of the Emperor +of the French and coaxing Austria to help us, is a pitiful imposture. +The evils of non-intervention were remote and vague, and could neither +be weighed nor described in any accurate terms. The good we can judge +something of already, by estimating the cost of a contrary policy. And +what is that cost? War in the north and south of Europe, threatening to +involve every country of Europe. Many, perhaps fifty millions sterling, +in the course of expenditure by this country alone, to be raised from +the taxes of a people whose extrication from ignorance and poverty can +only be hoped for from the continuance of peace. The disturbance of +trade throughout the world, the derangement of monetary affairs, and +difficulties and ruin to thousands of families. Another year of high +prices of food, notwithstanding a full harvest in England, chiefly +because war interferes with imports, and we have declared our principal +foreign food-growers to be our enemies. The loss of human life to an +enormous extent. Many thousands of our own countrymen have already +perished of pestilence and in the field; and hundreds, perhaps +thousands, of English families will be plunged into sorrow, as a part of +the penalty to be paid for the folly of the nation and its rulers. + +When the time comes for the 'inquisition for blood,' who shall answer +for these things? You have read the tidings from the Crimea; you have, +perhaps, shuddered at the slaughter; you remember the terrific picture,-- +I speak not of the battle, and the charge, and the tumultuous +excitement of the conflict, but of the field after the battle--Russians, +in their frenzy or their terror, shooting Englishmen who would have +offered them water to quench their agony of thirst; Englishmen, in +crowds, rifling the pockets of the men they had slain or wounded, taking +their few shillings or roubles, and discovering among the plunder of the +stiffening corpses images of the 'Virgin and the Child.' You have read +this, and your imagination has followed the fearful details. This is +war,--every crime which human nature can commit or imagine, every +horror it can perpetrate or suffer; and this it is which our Christian +Government recklessly plunges into, and which so many of our countrymen +at this moment think it patriotic to applaud! You must excuse me if I +cannot go with you. I will have no part in this terrible crime. My hands +shall be unstained with the blood which is being shed. The necessity of +maintaining themselves in office may influence an administration; +delusions may mislead a people; _Vattel_ may afford you a law and a +defence; but no respect for men who form a Government, no regard I have +for 'going with the stream,' and no fear of being deemed wanting in +patriotism, shall influence me in favour of a policy which, in my +conscience, I believe to be as criminal before God as it is destructive +of the true interest of my country. + +I have only to ask you to forgive me for writing so long a letter. You +have forced it from me, and I would not have written it did I not so +much appreciate your sincerity and your good intentions towards me. + +Believe me to be, very sincerely yours, + +JOHN BRIGHT. + +October 29. + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Speeches on Questions of Public +Policy, Volume 1, by John Bright + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK SPEECHES ON PUBLIC POLICY *** + +This file should be named 7080-8.txt or 7080-8.zip + +This eBook was produced by Blain Nelson, Charles Franks +and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team + +Project Gutenberg eBooks are often created from several printed +editions, all of which are confirmed as Public Domain in the US +unless a copyright notice is included. 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