diff options
Diffstat (limited to 'old/56190-0.txt')
| -rw-r--r-- | old/56190-0.txt | 66644 |
1 files changed, 0 insertions, 66644 deletions
diff --git a/old/56190-0.txt b/old/56190-0.txt deleted file mode 100644 index d2a198a..0000000 --- a/old/56190-0.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,66644 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. -XIV (of 15), by Warren Commission - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere in the United States and most -other parts of the world at no cost and with almost no restrictions -whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms of -the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online at -www.gutenberg.org. If you are not located in the United States, you'll have -to check the laws of the country where you are located before using this ebook. - -Title: Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15) - -Author: Warren Commission - -Release Date: December 17, 2017 [EBook #56190] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: UTF-8 - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (14 OF 26) *** - - - - -Produced by Charlie Howard and the Online Distributed -Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net - - - - - - - - - -Transcriber’s note: Stylized “U” and “L” displayed here as =U= and =L=. -Italics are represented by _underscores_. - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President’s Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - - -_Volume_ XIV - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O’BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be -found in the Commission’s _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XIV: -Curtis LaVerne Crafard, Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II, Robert -Carl Patterson, Alice Reaves Nichols, Ralph Paul, George Senator, Nancy -Perrin Rich, Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson), Joseph Alexander Peterson, -Harry N. Olsen, and Kay Helen Olsen, all of whom were friends, -acquaintances, employees, or business associates of Jack L. Ruby; Earl -Ruby and Sam Ruby, two of Ruby’s brothers, and Mrs. Eva Grant, one of -his sisters; Jack L. Ruby; Dr. William Robert Beavers, a psychiatrist -who examined Ruby; and Bell P. Herndon, an FBI polygraph expert who -administered a polygraph test to Ruby. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of— - Curtis LaVerne Crafard (resumed) 1 - Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II 95 - Alice Reaves Nichols 110 - Robert Carl Patterson 126 - Ralph Paul 134 - George Senator 164 - Nancy Perrin Rich 330 - Earl Ruby 364 - Eva Grant 429 - Sam Ruby 488 - Jack L. Ruby 504 - William Robert Beavers 570 - Bell P. Herndon 579 - Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson) 599 - Joseph Alexander Peterson 615 - Harry N. Olsen 624 - Kay Helen Olsen 640 - - -EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Crafard Exhibit No.: Page - 5202 1 - 5203 56 - 5204 62 - 5205 63 - 5206 63 - 5207 64 - 5208 65 - 5209 65 - 5210 65 - 5211 66 - 5212 66 - 5213 67 - 5214 68 - 5214-A 68 - 5215 68 - 5216 68 - 5217 68 - 5218 68 - 5219 68 - 5220 69 - 5221 69 - 5222 76 - 5223 76 - 5224-A 76 - 5224-B 77 - 5225 77 - 5226 82 - 5227 92 - 5228-A 93 - 5228-B 93 - 5229-A 93 - 5229-B 93 - 5230 94 - - Grant Exhibit No.: - 1 430 - 2 436 - 3 436 - 4 437 - - Herndon Exhibit No.: - 1 586 - 2 588 - 3 589 - 4 591 - 5 591 - 6 592 - 7 593 - 8 593 - 9 594 - 10 595 - 11 596 - 12 597 - - Nichols Exhibit No.: - 5355 111 - 5356 112 - - Patterson Exhibit No.: - 5357 128 - 5358 133 - - Paul Exhibit No.: - 5319 162 - 5320 163 - - Rich Exhibit No.: - 1 344 - 2 345 - 3 346 - 3-A 346 - 4 346 - - Ruby (Earl) Exhibit No.: - 1 412 - 2 413 - 3 423 - 4 424 - 5 425 - 6 425 - 7 425 - 8 427 - 9 427 - - Ruby (Sam) Exhibit No.: - 1 488 - 2 489 - 3 490 - 4 492 - - Senator Exhibit No.: - 5400 303 - 5401 304 - 5402 319 - 5403 319 - - - - -Hearings Before the President’s Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED - -The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on -April 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. -Burt W. Griffin, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to start out by stating for the record, for your -purposes, also, Larry, that we are continuing this deposition under the -same authority which it was commenced yesterday morning, and I know -that there is no mistake on your part that the oath which you took -before is still in effect. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What we propose to do today is to go through in some -detail some of the papers which have come into our possession. The -first thing I want to ask you to look at is a notebook, which is a -blue cover spiral notebook entitled, “Penway Memo Notebook” and it has -Commission Document No. 717, but for the record I will clarify this -that this is not the same number as the numbers that we are using in -the deposition. I will give it a deposition number in just a minute. I -am going to mark this for identification on the front cover—I am going -to mark this on the inside of the front cover at the bottom in pen, -“Washington, D.C., April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5202, Deposition of C. L. -Crafard,” and I am going to sign it with my signature, Burt W. Griffin. - -Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of the record, count the number of pages -and half pages. Perhaps it is a good idea to initial the bottom of each -page with your initials. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. In addition to the front cover, what I am going -to do is number the pages at the bottom, and I will put my initials on -each. I will make it clear that I am numbering only the separate sheets -of paper. I am not numbering each side of the paper. We can refer to -these pages as the numbered side and the reverse side for purposes of -discussion. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t you have the record show that pages—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 10 is a blank. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper which -has been torn off and there is nothing written on that page. Page 14 is -approximately a third of a sheet of paper, the bottom two thirds having -been torn off, and it does contain penciled writing on it. Page 15 is a -full sheet. Page 16 is approximately a half sheet with penciled writing -on it. Page 17 is a full sheet. There is a total of 18 pages including -half sheets and third sheets of paper in the notebook, and there is a -blue hard cardboard front cover and a buff or dirty brown back cover -which is also hard cardboard. Do we have photostatic copies of it? - -Do you want to put that in the record? - -Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get them numbered the same way. We can do -that later. - -(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5202 for identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Commission -Exhibit 5202, and ask you, Larry, if you recognize that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is a notebook I used to keep phone numbers when -I was working for Mr. Jack Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy that notebook yourself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I bought this myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how soon after you went to work for Jack Ruby did you -buy that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. About a week after I went to work for him. You look real -close on the front you will see my name on the front of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you write that in there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what you see on there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. C. L.—Larry Crafard, Carousel Club. Its got 1312½ Commerce -Street, Dallas, Tex. It’s real vague on there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an impression that simply comes through as -actually scratches on there and doesn’t come through in any color? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t come through in any color. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you bought this book, did Jack Ruby give you any -instructions with respect to maintaining the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just use it to put phone numbers down in, addresses of -people that called in wanting to talk, called in, put the phone number -down so I’d know how he could get in touch with them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the notations that appear in there follow any sequence -either chronological or by topic or anything of that sort? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they do, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take the time to look at it and see if -you recognize any sequence in the entries? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The first portion of the book on the first page is more or -less numbers which was used quite frequently. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to page 1? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; page 1. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to look over on the back of page 1; the -reverse side? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It is also numbers that were used quite frequently. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at page 2. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Page 2, I believe, was an address on the top of page 2. It -was an address that I wrote down for Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the remaining entries on there. Were they -numbers that were used frequently? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at the reverse side of page 2? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There is only one number on there, on the reverse side -of page 2 that we used very frequently. That was Little Lynn’s phone -number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 3? - -Mr. CRAFARD. From the numbers on there, as far as I know, there was -only one of them that was used very frequently. It was Mickey Ryan. On -the reverse side is just more or less notations that were taken down -from phone calls. Then on page 4 is just numbers that were taken down -from phone calls. The first number on page 4, Norma Bennett, that was -that one girl I was trying to tell you about yesterday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. She was the waitress? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was the one I started saying about that Jack had -tried to get to work as a stripper to get her to work for this friend -of his, Ralph Paul. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is that during your testimony yesterday you -remembered her name as Norma but you did not remember her last name? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I did not even remember her first name, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I thought you mentioned that her name was Norma. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you now say that the person you were -testifying about yesterday who tried to get work and who was ultimately -placed at work by Ruby with Ralph Paul was Norma Bennett? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the entry on page—what is it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Page 4. - -Mr. HUBERT. Refreshes your memory to that extent, right? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 4 is just notations. -No. 5 is just notations, with some things that Jack had to do on that -day. Then the reverse side of 5 is just notations, phone calls. No. 6 -is some draws that I took on different days. The reverse side of No. -6 is just notations, mostly for phone calls that was taken. No. 7 is -just notations with the exception of the top number, the top name, Joe -Roskydall, who was a friend of mine while I was previously living in -Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, in the pages that you have gone through so far, -have you noticed any handwriting in that book that is not your -handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you go through this, if you do recognize any -handwriting that is not yours, would you point that out to us? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 7 there is just -notations from phone calls. The bottom half of that page written in ink -isn’t my handwriting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize whose handwriting that is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I am not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Andy Armstrong’s handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would recognize Andy’s writing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that appear to be Andy Armstrong’s handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at page 8? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is my writing on page 8. That is just phone numbers, -addresses that was taken down that Jack Ruby give me to write down, -addresses that he wanted to keep. On the reverse side of that is a -couple of phone numbers. I don’t recall what they were for. Page 9 I -don’t have any idea what that was for. I don’t recall it all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting on page 9? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like my handwriting, yes. The reverse side of -page 9 is blank. Page 10 is blank. A portion of a page, page 11, is -blank. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11, incidentally, is a half sheet of paper. Do you -recall in using this notebook whether you had occasion to rip out -portions of the notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times I took a piece of paper and put a phone -number on it for Jack. Page 12 is just a few notations for some things -that I had to buy for myself. The reverse side of page 11 is—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the reverse side of page 12? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Page 12, yes; is just notations. Page 13 is a couple of -notations. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13 is in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This number in East Waco may not be mine. I don’t -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be 3902—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. East Waco. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. East Waco, and that is written in pen? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I don’t recall I ever wrote it down, and it doesn’t -look like my handwriting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Page 10? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; page 13. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Page 13. The reverse side of that page is my handwriting. -It is just notations. Page 14 is some notations I took while I was -trying to make arrangement to ship a dog to California. It is about a -third of a page. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read page 14 for us? It is a little difficult to -read. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not even sure what it is, myself. I can make out the -name Frank Fisher underneath, but that is all. I believe the rest of it -is something, Boeing Insurance it looks like. - -Mr. HUBERT. How is it spelled? - -Mr. CRAFARD. B-o-e-i-n-g. The reverse side of page 14 is just -notations. 15 is just notations. I don’t remember the bottom portion -of that number wrote in dark blue ink. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It begins with “WE-7-3037”? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What page? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Page 15. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three more lines which appear to read on -one line, “063” on the next line “Herman” printed, and the letters -“Flore” and then those are crossed out and written above it in longhand -is the word “flowers”. And then directly under “Herman Flowers” is in -longhand “from Wax-a-hatchy.” Do I understand that you do not recognize -that writing, for example, “from Wax-a-hatchy”, as being in your -handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Wax-a-hatchy”, I believe, is my handwriting. The rest of -it I don’t recognize. On the reverse side of that is figuring. That is -definitely not mine. Page 16 is just notations. That is about 2/3 of a -page. The reverse side of that page is just notations, people calling -in wanting reservations. Page 17 is just notations in my handwriting. -The reverse side of page 17 is just notations. Page 18 is just -notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of that is just notations. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of the pages in that book which you -have indicated are blank, every page in the book is filled, which means -that there are only a total of 18 pages in the book altogether. Do -you recall from looking at this notebook whether when you bought the -notebook it had more pages in it than appear to be there now? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it did have. I’m not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ripping out any of the pages? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ripping out any full pages; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether in making the entries in that book -you used pages in a consecutive fashion or whether you made entries on -pages at random so that there would be many blank pages interspersed -among pages that had writing on them? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Most of it, I believe, was—from the first portion of the -book, from the front to the back was pretty well in rotation. If I turn -it over to the back and maybe flip over four or five pages and make a -notation in it, as I recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean by that that you would leave some blank pages -at the back? - -Mr. CRAFARD. As I recall, there was blank pages left spaced in the back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So your testimony would be that the book as you see it now -is not in the same condition as it was in when you left Dallas on the -23d of November? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that book which appears to be -different from the way that you remember it when you left Dallas on the -23d? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can notice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any general questions, Mr. Hubert, that you -want to ask about the book? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I would like to. What was the purpose of keeping that -book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I used it, Jack would get calls he wanted to keep the -number of and I’d write the number down in this book and later transfer -to another book, and then I would use it if a phone call come in -somebody wanting to talk to Jack I’d put the number down where he could -get in touch with them at so I could give him the number to call. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you testified that the first three or four pages -were made when you first bought the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And were in fact numbers that you knew or he told you would -be frequently called, is that right? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the first two pages on both sides. - -Mr. HUBERT. He gave you those numbers? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were to keep the book in order to advise him -currently, that is to say, daily, of the calls and messages and so -forth that came in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, therefore, that that book, in order to -serve the purpose that you stated, it was being kept for, would have -been used by making the entries in sequence as they came up and not -skipping around? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I used the front of the book for numbers that Jack give me -that he wanted to keep. Then I’d use the back of the book for people -that called in for reservations at the club or he’d give me some -numbers he wanted to use right then, but he wouldn’t want to keep them, -or something of this sort. - -Mr. HUBERT. My point is that when you first started to use the book did -you just put the first series of entries other than those numbers that -were frequently called just at random on any page, or would you put it -in the next available page? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be on the next page. Sometimes I would -skip maybe two or three pages. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any reason for doing that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’d want to have the pages there, a couple of blank pages -there, like this one here which should have been torn out. I don’t know -why I didn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. What page are you referring to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The reverse side of page 12. It is a list of some -sandwiches I went out and got for a couple of the girls that worked at -the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting to us that the book served several -functions and that there were different portions of it for each -function? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that the back of each page was used for -the function of putting down reservations. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I might use two or three pages right in a row for that, or -I might take a page right out of the middle of the book. - -Mr. HUBERT. And leave it in the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Usually I tore the page out. The pages I transferred over -and when I got the book full I’d just throw the book away and get -another book. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which book are you talking of? - -Mr. CRAFARD. These notebooks like this. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had more than one? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had one other notebook similar to this, the -same type of a notebook as this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did with that notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. I thought you testified that this was the one that you -started off with. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. There was another one that you bought later? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I used it quite frequently. I’d tear the pages out -and write down the reservations a lot, most of the time. I had this -book and when I started putting reservations down I thought I’d get -another book and use it for that and then I’d have this one just for -the phone numbers and I wouldn’t mess up the reservations. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then the other book, when it was used up, as it were, was -thrown away? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have been through it. What we want to find out is -if there is any way that one can tell by looking at the book about the -date when any particular entry was made. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that you skipped around arbitrarily? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It might be 2 or 3 days before I’d put anything down in -this book in a row, maybe. Personally, I couldn’t say anything about -the dates when I made the entries. - -Mr. HUBERT. Suppose that you hadn’t used the book for a couple of days -and then you found occasion to make an entry. Would you make that entry -right following the last one you had made or would you make it at some -other page? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Several times I would flip over in the book to the next -empty page, put down an entry, and later I’d take the first few pages -that I had left out, left where I could and there would be a number -Jack would want to keep and I’d write the number down. These numbers on -the first couple of pages here, I think the first page is all numbers -that I got the first day and then the others is numbers I added to it -later. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then are we to understand that there is no possibility of -determining the sequence of events recorded in that book by referring -to the order in which they appear in the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, an entry on one of the later pages might -have been made prior to the one on the earlier page? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you testified, Larry, that you would sometimes flip -the book over and make entries on the back of the pages, and as you -have just done in front of us, you have turned the book over on its -face to the back of the book. Do I understand your testimony to mean, -then, that you worked, for some of your notations you worked backward? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From the back of the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But am I correct in understanding that the pages in the -front of the book which have writing on the back side of the numbered -page were not entries that were made in this fashion that we have just -been describing but followed in the ordinary sequence that you would -have made in working from the front of the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. The first two pages in the book, as I -stated before, are numbers that he wanted to keep. I would fill the -front of the page and then turn the page over and fill the reverse side -of that same page. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you go through there, would you leaf through -those pages from one on, and tell us what the first page is that you -recognize that wasn’t made by working from the front of the book and -filling in sequence the back of the page after you had filled the front? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be page No. 4. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the back of page 4 has entries on it which might have -been made because you were working from the back of the book forward? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, I believe so. I believe that is where I made those. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You also explained to Mr. Hubert that you would transfer -some of the entries from that book into another notebook. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe the other notebook for us? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was a Penway notebook, but it was a larger notebook. It -was a memo pad, I believe is what it was. Was wide enough that it had a -dividing line down the middle of the page, a red dividing line down the -middle of the page. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who purchased that notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long after you purchased this small Exhibit 5202 -did you purchase the notebook that you have just been describing? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 3 or 4 days later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that book kept physically? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on Jack’s desk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave that notebook at the Carousel when you left? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any entries that were made in that notebook -which were entered directly into that notebook without being placed in -some other notebook first? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a few in the last couple or few pages -in the notebook. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries that were in this larger Penway notebook -which you have been describing, did they include all of the telephone -numbers that are in this small Penway notebook which we have before us? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, not all of the numbers. There were numbers—the numbers -that Jack wanted to keep and used quite frequently. - -I believe all of the numbers on both sides of the first two pages were -in that book along with some other numbers that he had given me that he -wanted to keep that I wrote down there in the front. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the numbers that were placed in the large Penway -notebook placed there at Jack’s instructions or did you place some of -them in there on your own initiative? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was numbers that Jack wanted to keep and he asked me to -write down, he had asked me to get another book and write them down in -it so he could have them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you bought this larger Penway -notebook, had Jack been maintaining a notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom that he used a notebook. He had a book full of -numbers he very seldom used it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that book of phone numbers? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had one on his desk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of a book that was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a regular phone number and address book. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would recognize that book if it were -shown to you again? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recall at this point if there were other -entries in this small Penway notebook which you have identified as 5202 -which you do not see in there now? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t say definitely that there was; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to refer now to the inside of the front cover. -At the top of the inside of the front cover there is a number which -appears to be “261-TA3-8101.” - -Is that the way you would read that number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would read it 261-7A3-8101. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what the number is underneath that? -Read it for the record. - -Mr. CRAFARD. FE 5-3366. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under that, 612. Do you have any idea -what connection that has? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see the name “Jeff,” which is written under 612? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that might refer to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t recall who it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next number under Jeff? - -Mr. CRAFARD. TA 1-1782. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That “T” is written the same as what you thought was a No. -7? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In 261—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just a second. Half the time I’ve got to figure it out, -myself. - -Yes, that would be TA there, too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it what you are indicating is that you have a -tendency to make your “T’s” look like “7’s.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize this number TA 1-1782? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the top of page 1 there is some sort of a word -written. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The word “save.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That I want to save that piece of paper, that particular -sheet of paper, that I don’t want to destroy it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that the notation “Vegas Club” with its number -under it is the telephone number of the Vegas Club. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the next number is written “Jack’s home” and under -that “Whitehall 15601.” - -That is Jack Ruby’s telephone number at home? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what this next notation “Buddy” Fort Worth—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, Fort Worth, phone No. AX 3-0118 with the words -“twist board” underneath it is the fact that this Buddy was a gentleman -Jack called in reference to the twist board. I believe that is one of -the gentlemen had something to do with making the twist boards in Fort -Worth. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what Buddy’s last name was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive. I believe it was Buddy Heard. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding as to Buddy Heard’s connections -to the twist boards? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that he had something to do with the production -of the twist board in Fort Worth. - -Mr. HUBERT. What leads you to believe that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Because of the way it is set up here, he give me the -number, he give me the twist boards. It was something to do with either -the production or the selling of the twist boards. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a line, rather a vacant space under “twist -boards.” - -I would just as soon that you not make entries in the book. - -After that blank line there is some writing “Fort Worth” and some other -things that follow. - -Would you read that into the record, and then tell us what the -significance of that is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the word “Fort Worth” phone No. “ED-51266” -with a dash, and the words “give to Mike Shore only.” That would be a -number where Jack Ruby could be reached and he didn’t want me to give -the number to anyone but Mike Shore. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he didn’t want to give it to anyone but -Mike Shore? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Mike Shore a person that Ruby dealt with regularly? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he talked to Mike Shore two or three times a -week on the telephone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Mike Shore? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not sure, sir. I believe he was in the club. I’m not -positive. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Buddy Heard? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall where Mike Shore lived? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to state again what this entry in connection -with Mike Shore pertained to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The number would be a number where Jack Ruby could be -reached but he didn’t want me to give the number to anyone but Mike -Shore. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever call that number, ED-51266? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the number ED-51266 entered into this book the first -day that you got the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was within the first 2 or 3 days, I’m positive of that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby at that number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. I don’t remember making a call at that -number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything to you which would indicate how -often he visited the premises that that telephone number was located at? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of the conversation -that you had with Jack which resulted in making this entry in the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was over the telephone, and he called in, and -I believe I said something about Mike Shore had called wanting to talk -to him, and he give me that number and told me to give it to Mike Shore -only. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether he would be at that number only -that day or for a short period of time, or whether he could be reached -there every day, or what? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just a couple hours that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, under the name “Mike Shore only” there is another -line which has no writing on it, and then there is an entry “St. -Charles FL 7-0520.” What is the significance of that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name St. Charles is the last name of a -gentleman that Jack Ruby knew, but I don’t recall ever meeting the -gentleman or ever calling him to talk to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be put in the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, other than the fact that Jack give me the number. I -believe there is reference to that same number further on in the book. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps when we get to it we can discuss it at that point. - -Mr. CRAFARD. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page one then. - -There are no further entries on page one, are there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And we will look at the reverse side of page one. - -Now, there is a name written here “Abe”—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Klinman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How is that spelled? - -Mr. CRAFARD. K-l-i-n-m-a-n. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Abe Klinman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know what his position was or what he done for a -living, but I believe I met him at the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a local Dallas citizen? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this somebody that Jack dealt with regularly? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Four or five different times that I know of Abe -called the club, and several times that Jack called Abe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number under there, “RI 8——” - -Mr. CRAFARD. “4272.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Abe Klinman’s? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the next line there is something written in there. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The word “personal,” the letters “UN,” that is a telephone -No. “UN-3-0400.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose number is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Earl Ruby’s in Detroit, that is his home phone number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the Carousel, do you recall Jack’s ever -telephoning Earl Ruby or Earl Ruby ever telephoning Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack phoned Earl two or three different times. I don’t -recall Earl phoning Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why it was Jack called Earl? - -Mr. CRAFARD. In connection—the one time that I can really recall was in -connection with the twist boards. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you went to work for Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would have been about 2 or 3 weeks after I -went to work for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do you recall about that telephone call? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that he told Earl about the twist boards, -and he told him he’d send him a couple of them and some of the -advertisement he had on them, so he could promote them a little bit up -Detroit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you overhear this telephone conversation? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; there was something said about how they was -doing there, how they was selling there in Dallas, and the fact that -Jack thought that they would really go over pretty good up in Detroit, -Chicago, and in that area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a number under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” is -written under “personal UN-3400” and under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” there -are some other notations. Would you indicate what those are? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the No. 313 would be a code number, I believe, -for Detroit. The phone No. “UN 3-5590” which would be the business -number for Earl Ruby, and the words “Cobo Laundry” with the address -“18135 Livernoise Avenue,” Livernoise Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. May I point out for the record that Livernoise is written -on two lines along the right-hand side of the page under the line -which says “Cobo Laundry 18135” on it, and it is bracketed off from a -notation, which is “Ed Pullman” and on the next line “TA-34484.” - -Do you recognize the name Ed Pullman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He was a gentleman there in Dallas, I believe, that Jack -called several times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what his dealings were with Ed Pullman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I do not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line under that telephone number, “UN-3” and -then “UN-3” is scratched out and then on the following line there is a -name written. What is that name? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Leona Miller. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was she? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl that called in connection with or -in answer to an ad that Jack Ruby had in the paper for waitresses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So this entry, “Leona Miller” would not represent somebody -whom Jack called regularly? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t really go with the group of numbers then that -we have been talking about which were sort of permanent numbers? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ed Pullman though. Would he fall in this -category of people that Jack called regularly? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number under the name Leona -Miller, and then there is a blank line, and there is something written -on the next three lines. What is that on the next three lines? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Clark Dotty, I believe it is, D-o-t-t-y. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number. - -Mr. CRAFARD. WH 1-1227. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Clark Dotty? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page one does it not? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just before you finish that, let me ask you this. I notice -that there is apparently the name Clark Dotty written out at the bottom -of page one or the reverse of page one, and when it is written the -first time the word “Clark” seems to be written and scratched through -and then Clark Dotty is written again under its number. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are both of those entries in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you wrote it twice? - -Mr. CRAFARD. About the only reason I can see here would be the fact -that when I wrote it the first time instead of the name Clark I put -some other name down. Then I wrote over it and I couldn’t make it out -so I wrote the name Clark Dotty underneath it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recognize the name Mary Ray? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet Ed Pullman’s wife? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. Not that I can recall I -should say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the top of page 2 there is an entry. Mar-Din Co. -underneath that the name Henry Denture. The address 404 South Well, -Chicago 7, Ill. Phone number HA 7-3172. Do you remember how that entry -came to be made in the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was the number, if I can recall right, Clark called in -connection with the Earl Products Co. There is a company that I believe -Jack said this Mr. Denture and himself had been partners in one time in -Chicago. The company had went broke but they still had the papers and -everything on the company. It had never been dissolved. He was using -this as a name to sell the twist boards under, the Earl Products Co. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than contacting Henry Denture at the Mar-Din Co., do -you know of any other dealings that Jack had with Mar-Din? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that Henry Denture was involved -with Jack in the sale of twist boards? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you have that understanding? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack give me that understanding when he give me this Earl -Products Co. number, this number so I could call the Earl Products Co. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the Earl Products Co. was at the same address and -number as this Mar-Din Co.? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; from what I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on -this? - -Mr. HUBERT. I understood you to say that Jack wanted to communicate to -the Earl Products Co. the fact that Mar-Din and Henry Denture would be -associated with the twist boards? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Referring to page 2 of Exhibit 5202, I take it that the -first six entries starting with Mar-Din Co. and ending with Earl -Products all relate to the same thing, is that right? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And were all entered about the same time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am not clear just what the significance is and I wish -you’d state it again. - -Mr. CRAFARD. This Henry Denture, he called, he said it had been checked -with him in this Earl Products before in Chicago and he was using the -Earl Products Co. as a name to sell the twist boards under. - -Mr. HUBERT. Henry Denture was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack Ruby was, and he called Henry Denture in Chicago -about the twist boards. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear the call? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I was there when he made the call. I don’t recall just -exactly what was said but it was something about the twist boards. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he called a man called Henry Denture? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he wanted you to make this entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was just a number he wanted to keep. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, could the name Henry Denture be a mistake? Could -the last name really have been Kenter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It is quite similar and I could have made a mistake and -put a “D” down in place of a “K.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after the entry Earl Products Co., there is a line -with nothing written on it, and then there are two names. What are -those two names? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Doris Land and Peggy Taylor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall either of those two girls? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were girls who called in answer to the ad -that Jack was running in the paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number TA 4-6895? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Would be the number where they could be reached at. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now under that there is the name Teddy Walters, and Teddy -is written in longhand and Walters is printed. Are both of those your -handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall who Teddy Walters was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a telephone number under that. What is that -telephone number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. FE 7-4644. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry under that which looks like A. F. -McKnight, with a telephone number LA 6-2251. Do you remember anything -about A. F. McKnight? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack called, had a conversation with him a -couple of times on the telephone. Other than that I can’t recall -anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what those conversations were about? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 2 on the front side. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn the page over and ask you to look at -the back of page 2. Now there is a number WH 2-2371. Do you recognize -that number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is written in pen and then there is a line with -nothing written on it, and then there is the entry Riverside 7-2362 -Earl Products Co. How did that entry come to be put down? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was a local number Jack had me put down for -the Earl Products Co. If I recall right that was the pay telephone of -the Carousel Club, and anybody, he said if anybody called the Carousel -Club asking about this Earl Products Co. or anything about that, to -give them this number to call. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack didn’t want the Earl Products number to be -associated with his personal phone at the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was there a personal phone at the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just a business phone, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A business phone. What was the number on that business -phone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the same number as on his home phone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; can I go back a little bit on this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Going back to page 2 starting with the Mar-Din Co., the -number below that I believe, the HA 7-3172 if I remember right it -seems to me that this number and the address were different. It seems -to me this number was either a Fort Worth or a Dallas number, and -this address up here was just an address where I sent something, or -something of that sort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about that and it kind of didn’t—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think the HA number is a Chicago number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is either a Dallas or a Fort Worth -number after I think about it a little bit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are clear that there were two different telephones at -the Carousel Club. One was a pay phone and the other was a business -phone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the Riverside number was the business -phone number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry, there is rather a line with nothing -written on it after the entry Earl Products Co., and then there is a -name and address and some numbers written; what is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar, Wichita, Kans. The telephone number JA 4-4241. -The telephone number JA 8-6116. Bill DeMar was a comedian that Ruby -had hired to come down to the club, and these are the numbers where -he could be reached. I believe one was a motel number and one was a -business number or something of that sort. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries in connection with Earl Products Co. and Bill -DeMar are all written in pencil. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And I want to ask you if these would have followed in -sequence or whether you were making these entries in there because they -were entries which were to be kept or sort of on a permanent basis? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they follow sequence, I don’t believe the -number of Bill DeMar, numbers would be anything we would keep on a -permanent basis as far as I can recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also don’t think that Bill DeMar called shortly -after or that number was given to you shortly after the Earl Products -number was given to you so that the two of them were made at roughly -the same time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that, sir. They could have been. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you about Bill DeMar. Did Jack have any -business with Bill DeMar other than to hire him as an entertainer? - -Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entries in connection with Bill DeMar, there is -a line on which nothing is written, and then there is an entry Little -Lynn OP 34, and then 817—JE 4-8525. Do you remember making that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember approximately when that entry was made? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn’t say for dates. It was made about I -believe 2 or 3 days before Jack hired Little Lynn. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did that call happen to come in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember how it come about, but he give me the -number so he could have it to call Little Lynn. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack gave you that number or did you answer the telephone -and get that number from a long distance operator? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack gave me the number. I am not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after that there are some entries. Some figures -written on the next two lines. Can you tell us what those numbers are? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t know what they mean. There is the number -875, and number 1750. It seems like a hyphen behind the numbers with a -dash, and a three behind that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t any recollection what that might relate to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page 2. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to page 3. What is the name -written at the top? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The top line is “See Paul Lubeachick.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How does he spell that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is L-u-b-e-a-c-h-i-c-k, I believe. On the -next line is “Here at 9:30.” That would be that Paul Lubeachick was -going to be at the club at 9:30 and wouldn’t be able to be there too -long and he wanted to see Jack and I was to tell Jack when he called on -the phone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The next entry is also an entry for Bill DeMar. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It is Bill DeMar, Evansville, 824 West Idewild Drive, HA -3-7245, and I believe that was Bill DeMar’s home address; I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is an entry in pen which follows that. What is -that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Ruth Shay, Inwood Road, FL 2-5494. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Ruth Shay? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl called in connection with the ad -that Jack ran in the paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she ever hired? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a line and the name Mickey Ryan with a -telephone number. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey Ryan, DA 4-4378. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a number that was put in there for permanent -reference. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his home number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Mickey Ryan? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I have saw Mickey Ryan probably about eight or nine times -while I was working for Jack. Excuse me please. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me that number should have been on the first -couple of pages that wrote down, but it seems like I transferred the -number to the front of the book after I wrote the number down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mickey Ryan number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan’s name and number are something that Jack -would keep on a permanent basis? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey come at any particular time of the day or night? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he’d come in sometimes in the afternoon for a -little while and then maybe he would be in in the evening. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And would he visit with other people in the club besides -Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes Jack wouldn’t even be at the club. He’d come in -and talk to Andrew and I, and just visit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. These eight or nine times that you saw him, were they -spread out over the entire period that you worked there or was it just -in one particular brief period that he came in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Over the entire period of time I was working for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the first time that you met Mickey Ryan? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not clear. No, sir; I don’t recall exactly when I met -him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about the first time that you do recall meeting -Mickey Ryan and what happened. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The first time I really remember talking to Mickey at the -club I believe he came in one afternoon and I was in the club. There -was a letter that had come for Mickey Ryan to the club and I gave that -to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody else receive mail at the club besides Mickey -Ryan? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was two or three people that had worked at the club -previously that had mail sent to the club after they left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have anything to do with the sale of twist -boards? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Mickey’s relationship with Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know they were just friends. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any view about Mickey as to whether he was a -homosexual? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey seemed to be pretty decent guy. As far as I could -figure there was nothing of that sort there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how Mickey met Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have any kind of business dealings with Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack had a bookkeeper. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what his name was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn’t Mickey Ryan? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a friend of Mickey Ryan’s? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. It might have been. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what Mickey Ryan’s occupation was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I knew, sir, he was a bartender. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was a club called there a couple of days, a couple of -different times asking for Mickey. I believe it was at the Gun Club -where he went to work. When I first met him he was unemployed and then -he went to work afterwards. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was your impression that he went to work as a bartender -at the Gun Club. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You formed that impression from what he told you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. When they called they called asking for him and they said -they wanted him in reference to a job, and he said he was trying to get -a job as a bartender. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his having told you that he had gotten the -job? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is the reason I formed the impression that -he had been a bartender. - -Mr. HUBERT. He told you so. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to go back to that top entry on page 3 “see Paul”—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me finish up on Mickey Ryan a second. Do you know what -kind of a club this Gun Club was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I had never been there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it just a bar or was it a place where people went to -shoot skeet or trap or something like that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. I believe the call came in as the Hunt -Club or something like that or Hunter’s Club or something of that sort, -the call came in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you are not sure that the name of the club is the Gun -Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have any idea where that club is located? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It is near Dallas somewhere but that is all I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if it is in downtown Dallas or in the -outskirts or what? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was on the outskirts of Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been a country club, a golf club of some -sort? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, I am finished with that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Going to the top of page 3 that entry “See Paul Lubeachick -here at 9:30.” I think you added something to that entry to the effect -that that entry meant that that man was going to be there at 9:30? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. The part you added was that he couldn’t stay very long. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is the impression that I had when I talked to him, -sir. He said something about—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You have a distinct recollection therefore of that -particular episode and that man? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Of the call coming in; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a call? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. The man gave you that name and said that he would be there -at 9:30? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But that he could not wait very long? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something like the fact that he would be -there at 9:30 and he wanted to see Jack, that he couldn’t stay there -for any length of time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he came in at 9:30? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. After the club opened I was too busy -to notice who came in. - -Mr. HUBERT. With an entry of that nature isn’t it fair to say that you -would have conveyed that information in its totality to Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would have told him not merely that the -man was coming in at 9:30 but that he had said he couldn’t wait very -long. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall having done so? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, sir. I don’t recall it clearly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever at any time after that see a man named Paul -Lubeachick? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that you told Jack he couldn’t wait -very long? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Jack’s reaction to that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe Mickey Ryan and a telephone number under there -is the last entry on page 3. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page 3 to the back. There is the -name Stanley Kaufman and a telephone number after that. Did you ever -meet Stanley Kaufman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ever meeting him, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was Stanley Kaufman a name that Jack would have wanted -kept on a permanent basis? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it following the -entry in connection with Stanley Kaufman, and there is a notation -“Wednesday pay bill at phone company.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that something you were to do? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Something I was to remind Jack to do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would we be able to date anything in this book from that -entry of Wednesday pay phone bill, for example, if we knew when Jack -paid his telephone bill in October or November? Would we be able to -draw any conclusions as to all of the entries in the book which appear -before that entry “Wed pay bill at phone company?” - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line after the entry in connection with the -phone company, and then there is something written. What is written? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Riky Kasada. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that somebody’s name? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your spelling of a name that was spoken to you or -did somebody actually dictate that spelling to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is my own spelling. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is simply what we would call your interpretation of -the phonetics? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Riky Kasada? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After that there is another name. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir, M-i-l-l-e-s. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was he? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was a she. She was the woman who called me in reference -to Mickey on this job. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, she called to inquire about Mickey Ryan? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember the conversation you had with her? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she indicate where she was calling from? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She said something about a club or something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it this Hunt Club or Gun Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any connection between Riky Kasada and Scotty -Milles? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the entry reference on Mickey, there is a line and -then there are some figures written there. Do you make anything out of -those numbers? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would those be expenses that you had or money that you -took out of the cash register? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think if you sat here awhile and thought about it -you might be able to make something out of this? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. It might be some bills that I had -paid or something. Maybe some champagne I had bought or something like -that that I had put down, the money I had been given and what I had -spent. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are clear though that those figures refer to money? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so by the way they are wrote down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is the significant point about the way they are written -down that indicates that they refer to money. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The number 1420 is wrote down like you write down $14.20. - -Mr. HUBERT. By doing what to the 1420? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Putting the dot behind your 14. - -Mr. HUBERT. You put the decimal? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you write money? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you would say that those figures being in your -handwriting would be the way you would write figures concerning money? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back side of page 3. I want to turn to -page 4 then. What is written at the top of page 4? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name Norma Bennett with the number CA 4-2234. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Bennett or Barnett? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Bennett. As I have wrote it it appears to -be Barnett. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you think the name is Bennett. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now who is Norma Bennett? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She is a young lady that called in connection with the ad -that Jack had ran, subsequently came in and met Jack. Jack tried to -talk her to go to work as a stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever work for him in any capacity? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir; not around the Carousel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first see her? - -Mr. CRAFARD. When she came into the club the day after she phoned. -I believe that was about 4 weeks before President Kennedy was -assassinated. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you talk to her at all? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your conversation with her? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just getting acquainted with her more than anything. She -seemed like a pretty nice girl. We got along pretty well. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did she remain in the club that day? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was around the club most of the afternoon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Jack there during that period? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack came in after she arrived. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack stay while she was there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spent a couple of hours around the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation Jack had? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not particularly, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the entry on page 4 concerning Norma -Barnett, is there any doubt in your mind that, as it is written, it is -Barnett and not Bennett? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No doubt in my mind it is spelled Barnett, B-a-r-n-e-t-t. - -Mr. HUBERT. You got that over the phone when she called; is that right? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that her name was not really Barnett -but Bennett? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I already spoke of her as Norma Bennett I -believe when I spoke with her. I recall that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony was that you subsequently met her. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you then learn that her name was Bennett instead of -Barnett? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I very seldom used her last name after I met her. I -believe when she introduced herself it sounded to me like she said -Norma Bennett when she introduced herself to Jack. - -Mr. HUBERT. Obviously when you heard it over the phone you thought it -was Barnett because that is the way you put it down. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But thereafter you think you learned from her that it was -Bennett? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I might have misspelled it to myself or something. I -referred to her as Bennett all the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you refer as Bennett? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I used her name to Jack a couple of times when we -was talking about her. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever use the name Bennett to her? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ever using her last name to her, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that you really don’t know what her last -name is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the next word after CA 4-2234? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Waitress. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then under that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Judy Armstrong. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is under that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Congress, the phone number Congress 9-2576, Carlton, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think those four lines beginning with waitress and -ending up with Carlton, Tex., all deal with the same transaction? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the word “waitress” doesn’t deal with the -direction above it but the transaction below it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was that, a call from somebody who wanted to be a -waitress? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet that person? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall meeting her. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack called her? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know if he called her or not, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; let’s pass to the next entry under that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me 1 minute, please. It seems to me this Judy -Armstrong was a number that one night one of the girls was sick and one -of the other girls that had the night off and we needed another girl -and this is a girl that had worked for Jack, I believe, and we tried to -call her. I am not positive of that. Or we tried to call her to go to -work or something. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is that insofar as the entry concerning -Judy Armstrong which begins with the word waitress and ends with -Carlton, Tex. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You first testified that you thought that this was a person -answering an ad? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now you think that actually you all sought to call her to -work in place of someone who was ill? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the way it worked out she had called in -connection with the ad and we had her number down on the list of girls -to call and one night we needed a girl and we tried to call her and -couldn’t get in touch with her. Tried to call her to come to work and -couldn’t get in touch with her. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that the entry on page 4 was actually made as you said -it was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When she called applying for a job but you have an -independent recollection other than the entry that on some occasion you -called her to just see if she could substitute? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you reached her. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall reaching her, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have never met her? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; what about Burt Nelson? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Burt Nelson, Chez Femme, the phone number EM 3-6324, and I -don’t know who Mr. Nelson is. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is that Chez Femme? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is a place he worked, I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a place is it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. I believe it was a clothing store of -some sort. - -Mr. HUBERT. A what? - -Mr. CRAFARD. A clothing store of some sort, sir, I believe, I am not -positive. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the entry under that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, hyphenized, Floyd Turner, phone number LY 2-5903, -Tyler, Tex. I don’t remember ever meeting him. I believe Jack referred -to him as Budd Turner though. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a call that had come in or a call given to -you by Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir. I believe it was one given to me by -Jack. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that man? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Never met him. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear his name spoken other than in this -connection? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s turn over to the next page then which is page 5. -Would you read it because I can’t read your handwriting. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Page 5 or do you want to read the reverse of page 4, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to read the reverse of page 4 I beg your pardon. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It starts with line Linda phone number RI 2-0720, and the -initials R. W. Bowsher. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that those three entries relate to the same -thing. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they do, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then tell us what they do mean independently. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the line DA and the line number is a number -where we could get ahold of this girl Linda, but the R. W. Bowsher I -have no recollection of what it would be. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to be written with a different pen or pencil? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The pencil that was used for the word Linda and the phone -number seems to have been sharper than the one used for R. W. Bowsher. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it your custom to separate independent episodes by -leaving a blank line between them? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I have done so most of the time; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In this case you don’t seem to have done so. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes I would put them right under something else. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anyway your recollection now is that you think the word -Linda and the telephone number under it is independent from the line -that immediately follows which reads “R. W. Bowsher?” - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is Linda? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir; I don’t recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said she was a—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was more like a girl that called in answer -to the ad we ran in the paper. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about R. W. Bowsher, then? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything about him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s pass to the next entry which is separated from R. W. -Bowsher by a blank line. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy Heard, Loflin Hotel, phone number KE 2-4672. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t that 71? - -Mr. CRAFARD. 71, yes sir. And underneath that the numbers 5336827, and -100 North Florence—and the word “office.” I believe that would be the -fact that Buddy Heard was staying at the Loflin Hotel. The KE number -would be a number where we could reach Buddy Heard. The next number -down would be probably a number for the office. I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the telephone for that office. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe would be the 533-6827. I am not positive. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think that those five lines beginning Buddy Heard -and ending 100 North Florence—office are all related to the same -transaction? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think they are not related to the line which -immediately follows starting “Burt called?” - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is something entirely different. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Buddy Heard? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. I believe I have met him. I am not -sure. But “Burt called” underneath that—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s not leave Buddy Heard yet. Does the name mean -anything to you at all? You might have some recollection in your mind? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I have heard the name mentioned several times but I don’t -know what Heard done for a living. I believe he had something in -connection with the actor’s union. I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t think you have ever met him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go to the next entry, then. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Burt will call later. You have his home number. I believe -that would be all related. - -Mr. HUBERT. Those four lines would be related to one another? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What would be the significance of that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that this Burt called and wouldn’t leave the -number but said that Jack had his home number. - -Mr. HUBERT. “You” there refers to Jack, right? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this was a note that was being written so -that when Jack read it if he weren’t there he would know it was written -to him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is Burt? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall who he was. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. That finishes the back of page 4. Mr. Griffin, -do you want to start with page 5? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you got through the entries “Burt called.” -For my own clarification, did we identify where the Loflin Hotel is, -which city that is in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; we didn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I believe that it is Dallas. I am not -positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are all of the entries from Buddy Heard to 100 North -Florence—office—— - -Mr. HUBERT. That has been covered. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the top of page 5 there is a series of notations. -Would you read those off. - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Get ad off to Hyman.” In other words things to tell Jack, -to remind Jack he had to do was to get an ad off to Hyman, pay a phone -bill and go to the bank and then appointment call to Earl. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what ad there was to get off to Hyman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the ad in connection with the -twistboards. I am not positive. We were sending an ad to this Hyman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the ad was to be placed? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. He was to mail it, I believe, I am not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the meaning of “appointment call to Earl”? What is -an appointment call? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had called and asked the operator to place the call at -a certain time and to call him back when the connection had been made. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The mailing of the ad to Hyman and the paying of the phone -bill and the going to the bank and the appointment call to Earl, did -these all occur on the same day? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line drawn under appointment call to Earl. It -separates the page in half roughly. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that line. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would be that this top portion of the page would have -been 1 day, things I had wrote down for 1 day. The bottom of it would -have been another day or on 2 or 3 days later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an entry there “get post office box.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that in connection with? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was going to get another post office box to -use for this twistboard setup. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he already have one post office box before that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was receiving the mail through the Carousel -Club and his home address. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under there RI 1-0345. Do you know whose -phone number that is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a line with nothing written on it after that, -and there is another entry. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Pauline called” at I believe 4 and will be in about 7 or -something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was Pauline? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She was more or less I’d say the assistant manager over at -the Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Pauline Hall. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 5; is that correct? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on -those entries on page 5? - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the appointment call with Earl? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Those entries at the top of page 5, the four of them, the -things that you were to do or remind him of, were they simply told to -you by Jack over the phone or in person and then you were to remind him -the next day or later? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Things that Jack said and I was to remind him the next -day. I believe on this phone call he had tried to place it one day -and he couldn’t get the phone call through so he arranged for an -appointment call the next afternoon I believe it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do it yourself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. If Jack did? - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember him doing it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember him placing, trying to place a call to Earl -one day and he couldn’t make it and he arranged a call for the next -day. But I don’t know if this was the incident or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. What this simply means is that you were to remind him of it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was then your function with respect to it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Jack ever mentioning or did you ever hear -anything about the Triangle Manufacturing Co. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Jack had any dealings with any people in -Wisconsin? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to the back of page 5. There is a -name written at the top of the back of page 5. What name is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jerry Lindsay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Jerry Lindsay? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He called in wanting a job. He had been a floorman in -another club and he called in asking about a job at the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is a floorman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. A polite way of saying bouncer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack employ a bouncer while you were there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Jack about why he did or did not, why -he didn’t have a bouncer? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any need for a bouncer? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not the Carousel Club. This would have been in -connection with the Vegas Club, I believe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a tougher crowd at the Vegas Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. They had sometimes some pretty tough crowds out there on -weekend nights. People would get drunk and start giving them trouble. -The floorman would talk to the man trying to get him to quiet and if he -wouldn’t be quiet he would escort him to the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Vegas Club didn’t have stripteasers did it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yet there was a tougher crowd there at the Vegas. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The type of crowd that frequented the clubs, the Carousel -Club and the other burlesque shows in town was the businessmen more -than anything, whereas the Vegas Club’s clientele was more or less -common laborers, working people. It was a dance club where you could -go in and buy beer, soft drinks and you could dance, and the clientele -there was of the rougher nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I was a little bit confused in your testimony yesterday. - -Was it your impression that Jack was doing better financially off the -Vegas than off the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Definitely; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say that with positiveness? What makes you so -positive about that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Two or three different times Jack said if it wasn’t for -the Vegas Club he would have had to close the Carousel down a long time -before. The Vegas Club was making enough money to keep the Carousel and -the Vegas both running. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think he kept the Carousel open? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. There had been a stretch where I guess -he had had pretty bad luck with the Carousel, hadn’t been making much -money and he used the money he made from the Vegas Club to keep the -Carousel going at that time from what I understood. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the time you were working there was the Carousel -carrying its own? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir; to my knowledge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you felt that in the month or 2 months that you -worked for Jack, both the Vegas and the Carousel were self-sustaining -operations? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After this entry about Jerry Lindsay, there is a telephone -number TA 7-2553 floorman, and I understand from your testimony those -all should be read together. Then there is a line with nothing written -on it and there is a notation which I wonder if you can decipher. - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Talked to Leo—Mrs. Grant.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall the significance of that, who Leo was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He worked at, I believe he was handling the floor at the -Carousel most of the time. I don’t recall what his last name was. I -believe this was the night that I stayed at the Vegas Club for Jack the -first night. I believe Leo called and I talked to him and then I talked -to Mrs. Grant right away. Mrs. Grant called right away after that and I -talked to her. I am not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that the call from Jerry Lindsay was -also taken at the Vegas Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; the call from Jerry Lindsay was taken at the Carousel -Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that, EM—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is FL 1-9303. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know what—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what it would be in connection with, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the next telephone number. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 5. Now let me turn over to page 6. -There are some entries on there, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, -Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and then from Sunday through Monday you -have entries of amounts of money after that. Did you make those entries -on there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do those refer to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to draws that I made from the till. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what week that would have been that you made -that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are not -complete. Do you have any recollection on the basis of that that it was -the last week that you worked there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so, sir. I don’t believe it was. I -might have been but I don’t believe it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Larry, I notice that nowhere else in this little book are -there entries of that nature. Can we assume that you only kept such -records for 1 week or rather 4 days of 1 week? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was because of the fact that Jack had -agreed to start paying me a salary and he wanted me to keep track of -my draw slips, draws on that, and then it appears about Wednesday or -Thursday he told me to quit keeping it, didn’t have to keep track of it -any more or something. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there it was just on a draw basis. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you talked to him about a salary? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He told you that he would think it over. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your testimony now is that after you all had talked -about a salary he wanted to know what your draw was so that he could -adjust the salary accordingly, is that right? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that these entries would have been made about the time -that you talked about a salary? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. It would have been about 3 weeks before the -assassination of President Kennedy I believe, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That you talked about—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. About the salary; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is fair to say then that these entries relate to that -week, to wit, about 3 weeks before the assassination. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would be 2 or 3 weeks before the assassination. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said that the significance of the fact that there are -no entries for Thursday, Friday and Saturday is that Jack told you that -it was no longer necessary to keep a record of your draws? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did that mean with respect to whether you were going -on salary or not? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember what it had to do with that, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go on a salary? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I never was paid any salary. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember he told you to stop keeping a record. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the reason that I quit. I don’t -actually recall him saying so but I believe that would be the reason. - -Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that refresh your memory? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; it doesn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t let me finish but I will repeat it. Doesn’t that -refresh your memory with respect to the fact that you all had agreed -upon a salary then? Could it have any other significance? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had said something; he said I would draw a salary but -I don’t believe there was ever any exact figure agreed upon. I don’t -remember of any. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Wednesday, although you had not agreed -on what the amount of the salary would be, your recollection is that he -told you it was no longer necessary to keep this because there would be -a salary? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. But there never was any salary paid at all. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you normally make these entries? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I’d make a draw. Usually in the evening I made -most of my draws. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you would put it in the book immediately. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; usually. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that sometimes you would put it in there -the next day. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I might sometimes the next day; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact also that at the beginning of that week you -wrote down all of these days and then the entries were made as you drew -for each day? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now an entry for Thursday would have been made on Friday, -wouldn’t it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been made on Thursday. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you just told me that there was at least the -possibility. - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was a possibility I would have waited until Friday -but I believe I would have made the entries on the day I made the draw. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am suggesting to you that these sets of entries have to -do with the week in which President Kennedy was killed, and that is -that you had agreed upon a salary on the Wednesday. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall exactly what week they had to do with, sir; -really. It could have been that week. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you had agreed on salary? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But not the amount of it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you never were paid any? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. For instance, the Saturday before you left Dallas you were -not paid a salary. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had a salary been agreed upon prior to that time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. If it had it would have been paid wouldn’t it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it would have been. - -Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that pinpoint then this series of days as being the -week during which President Kennedy was killed on a Friday. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry “Saturday” there is a blank line and then -there is an entry “call home as soon as possible.” - -How did that come to be written? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. It could have been somebody called -in to have one of the girls call home or something like this. A couple -of the girls had been married and had children. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a note left for Jack Ruby or for yourself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it was for Jack Ruby. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you carry this notebook on your person at all times? - -Mr. CRAFARD. When I was in the club it was in my pocket all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you were not in the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time it would be in my pocket, anyway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number written after the previous -entry, and it is RI 1-4643. Do you remember that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t remember it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 6. - -Now let me turn over page 6 to the back, and there is something written -on there, Schroll. Is that in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is the name Dick Gifford, KTVT, Fort Worth, -TA 3-7110. Is that in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how this Schroll name happened to be -written down? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or who that refers to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Dick Gifford? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He was I believe an MC over at the KTVT. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how that entry happened to be put in -there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was something in connection with the twist board setup. -I called him in connection with—Jack give me the number to call and ask -for this Dick Gifford. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you say to Dick Gifford? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something on the price of advertisement -on TV, for a TV advertisement or something of that sort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what makes you think that it was the price of a TV ad? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly this next line hasn’t got anything on it. It has -been erased. I believe I erased it, 150 for 1 minute, and I recall this -150 for 1 minute was in connection with a TV advertisement. - -I don’t remember whether I made the call or whether Jack made the call -or what. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After the line 150 for 1 minute, which is partially -erased, there is an entry “Names of record shops where it can be -bought.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that refer to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of what it does refer to, sir. Probably a -record of some kind that Jack was wanting to get ahold of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any records that Jack was interested in -buying? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He was buying records and bought a lot of records he gave -away as prizes in the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of records were they? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Such records as, Belly Dancer and Striptease for Your -Husband. Rusty Warren records and such as that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So they were what you might call party records? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; party records. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show an interest in any other kind of records -besides party records. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not for the club that I ever saw. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about for other purposes? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him ever saying anything about records -for anything else. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 6. - -We will turn over to the front part of page 7. There are some entries -there. Are those entries all in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The first entry is Joe Roskydall. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us again who Joe Roskydall is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name Roskydall is the last name of a friend of mine. -This Joe was a number in the phone number I called when I was trying to -locate this friend of mine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your friend’s first name. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Robert Roskydall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Robert living with Joe Roskydall? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I figured they might be related. He had been around -Dallas for quite a while and I thought they might be related in some -way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is something written on the next line after Joe -Roskydall. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like Benning, EV 1-6260. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that have any connection with Joe Roskydall? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Benning was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is written on the next line? - -Mr. CRAFARD. W. J. Groveland, DA 1-5178. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a person? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another entry there. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Dick Lenard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; who is Dick Lenard? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another one. - -Mr. CRAFARD. KTVT TA 3-7110. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the same number that you had for Dick Gifford. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that indicate that there was a second call made? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that this KTVT here was wrote down before the -other one was. It was later he give me the name Dick Gifford for the -same number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry about KTVT there is a line with nothing -written on it and there is some more writing. - -Mr. CRAFARD. E. J. Evans. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Stevens Park Beauty Salon, 2140 Forth Worth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had me calling the beauty salons trying to get them -to promote this twist board for him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you call more than one beauty salon? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I called several of them around Dallas. I don’t remember -calling any in Fort Worth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do when you would call these beauty salons. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Talk to them about the twist boards. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How would a typical conversation go. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’d call them and tell them—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Introduce yourself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Introduce myself and tell them that I was promoting a -twist board exerciser and tell them a little bit about the exerciser -and that we would like to arrange a deal where we could put this -exerciser in their salon, put it for sale in their salons. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make any placements? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No sir. Excuse me, but this one here was 2140 Fort Worth -Avenue in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be in Dallas. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The phone number would be WH 6-9755. Underneath that -is mail brochure. I believe we were supposed to mail a brochure to them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is mail brochure and not Maisel Brothers. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I am positive that is mail brochure, almost positive -of that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you supposed to do? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mail a brochure to this Stevens Park Beauty Salon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have brochures printed up? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you started to work for him did he have -these brochures? When did he first have them? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy -was assassinated he got them. He hadn’t got them very long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the brochures? How many pages were they? - -Mr. CRAFARD. One page. It was a sheet, I believe it was 7½ inches long -and I believe it was about 5½ inches wide. - -It said “Twist a waist exerciser,” and then it showed an exerciser -board. Then I believe it showed a couple of the different positions of -a person on an exerciser board. I am not positive of that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How big were these twist boards? - -Mr. CRAFARD. They were about an 8-inch square. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they made out of? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a 1½-inch pressed board. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be wood of some sort. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Pressed wood. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a fiberboard? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is not a plastic though? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these boards were made out of sort of a plastic -glue in the press board. Then underneath that would be a ball-bearing -disk, sort of a twist setup with a small piece of masonite attached to -the bottom of that. The board would twist on the ball bearings. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you lie on the floor on this thing? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; you would stand on it and twist. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this item? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know who originally designed the item. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had designed it -himself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really know, sir. I never got any idea of who had -designed it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the brochure, did it have a picture of the twist board -on it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. I am not positive of that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 7, doesn’t it. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 7. - -Now turning to the back of page 7, there are some entries in pencil, -are those all in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what is the first entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Ed McMulmore it looks like. It is probably spelled wrong. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that name? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is two telephone numbers written after that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. There is the word “Johnnie call Detroit.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are two telephone numbers. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the note “Johnnie call Detroit Helene.” What does -that have to do with—? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Johnnie was the first name of one of the MC’s Jack had -working for him. I don’t recall the last name. He got a call to call -Detroit, to call Helene in Detroit. Apparently he had the number -because that is all I got. I was told to have him call Helene in -Detroit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Helene was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I thought it was possibly his wife. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three blank lines. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And a number written upside down. What number is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is RI 6-6807. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I don’t believe that is my handwriting. It -doesn’t appear to be. For one thing for the fact that it is wrote with -the page turned upside down, for one thing, and the numbers aren’t -shaped like any numbers are shaped. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible, referring to the top of the page, that -this entry which looks like Ed McMulmore is really Ed Mc, and then -Mulmore? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It could be; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that mean anything to you reading it that way? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now written on the right side up on the back of page 7 -after the entry RI 6-6807, there is another entry. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. CEN, which would be I believe the abbreviation for -Central, and EX, which I believe would be the abbreviation for -Expressway, dash 5400. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that have to do with? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t think anything. I believe that is my writing. Let -me see. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is or is not? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is. Wait a minute, Jack was going somewhere -or somebody else was going for him and he was having trouble, didn’t -know how to get there. Somebody was going somewhere and they didn’t -know how to get there and I was talking to the people they was going -to see and they told me to have him turn at Central Expressway 5400 on -McKinney to 2500. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are directions to get to some place? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; McKinney, but I don’t remember where. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they directions for you or for Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. For somebody else. I don’t recall who it was for. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For a friend of Jack’s? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I give the directions to somebody else but -I don’t recall who it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it your understanding then that you would drive out -Central Expressway to the 5400 block? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then at the 5400 block you would find McKinney? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Make a right-hand turn I believe on McKinney, the 2500 -block. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you make a right-hand turn? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I remember something about the conversation. I am trying -to remember. I can’t remember too much of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a conversation you had with somebody on the -telephone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was. I am not positive. I would not swear -to it but I believe it was over the telephone that I was given these -directions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were to pass the directions on to somebody else? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of Dallas would that be in, following those -directions? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be the southern portion of Dallas, I -am not sure. It seems to me 5400 on Central would be the other end of -Dallas, the southern end. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 7. Now on page 8 -there are some entries. Whose entries are those? - -Mr. CRAFARD. These are my entries. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the first one has to do with somebody named -Lenard Woods. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Lenard Woods, his social security number, his address, -3420 Medow, Apt. No. 235. These gentlemen on this page are all members -of the band that played at the Vegas Club, and it would be Milton -Thomas, his social security number, with the address 2220 Anderson, -the phone number HA 1-1026; Clarence McInnis, social security number, -the address 2607 Oakland, no phone number; James Dotson, the social -security number, the address 1136 Fletcher, his phone number RI 7-7436; -the name James T. Aycox, his social security number, 2715 Hebornia; -I believe it is with a notation under that that he also was known as -Bear; they called him the Bear. His phone number was HA 1-1026. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to come to put all of those notations -in there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack’s sister took sick. He had me get the names and the -addresses of the boys. I had understood him to say he wanted it for tax -purposes and I got the social security numbers too, so he could get in -touch with them for one thing when he did want to get in touch with -them and also for he said tax purposes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see these men at the Vegas Club and get the -information there or did you call them? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I got these from, it was either Jack’s sister or -Pauline. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front side of page 8. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 8 there are some entries. What are -those entries? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The numbers, the phone number WH 3-9783. That doesn’t mean -anything to me whatsoever. The phone number TA 7-9088. I can’t make out -what is underneath it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure. It could be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And this telephone number doesn’t mean anything to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 8. Let’s look at page 9. - -There are some entries there. Are those in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember every making an entry of that sort. -For one thing this phone number has been gone over two or three times. -These numbers $3, $3.50, that has no meaning whatsoever to me. None of -this has any meaning to me whatsoever. I don’t recall ever making an -entry of that sort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you ever even decipher this 18 and then a 12 and then -something is written. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like M-M-L-E-S or it could be M-E-B-L-S. That is -as close as I can come to it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number RI 7-5610 also on that page. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. It could be. It could be, I am not -positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 9, doesn’t it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part. And there is nothing written on the back -of page 9. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is nothing written on the front or back of page -10. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing -written on the front or back of what is left of that. Now on page 12 -there are some items “supporter, shaving cream, after shave lotion, -tooth brush, code 10 hair cream.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And they are personal items? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That you purchased for yourself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you began to work for Jack was that entry -made? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That would be at least 4 or 5 weeks before I left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the front part of page 12 and there is nothing -else on the front part of page 12. On the back part of page 12 there -are a number of entries. Can you read those off to us. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name Bonnie? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bonnie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She is one of the waitresses at the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is after that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Salami, swiss cheese on rye with mayonnaise. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what is the entry. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Ham and cheese with mayonnaise. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an M or something up ahead. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That signifies the mayonnaise. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. CRAFARD. PS, I don’t know exactly what that PS meant there. There -is ham and cheese with mayonnaise. I am not sure what the first part of -this was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be Betty or Becky. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been Becky, probably Becky; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a girl there named Becky, a waitress? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; a waitress. Then the next entry on the page is Bill -Remike. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He called in for reservations at the Carousel Club. To -continue with that, Bill Remike, two couples at 9:30 they asked for -good locations. The next entry on that is the name Proctor, one couple -at 9 o’clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is also a reservation. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Also a reservation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 12. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now page 13, there is an entry. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The phone number WH 2-5326, Bobby Patterson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bobby Patterson. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was at the Vegas Club, one of the players at -the Vegas Club. I don’t have his name down. He had something to do with -the band at the Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he somebody that you saw? Had you met him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I met Bobby Patterson; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you met him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw him once or twice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe once at the Carousel Club and I believe I saw -him at the Vegas Club one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall now the time you saw him at the Carousel, -when was that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He come in in the afternoon and talked to Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how long he stayed? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn’t there very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the -most. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what he talked about with him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something about, had something to do with -who was in charge of the band at the Carousel or the Vegas Club or -something of that sort. I am not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the time that you think you saw him at the Vegas -Club. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe one night when I went over with Jack he was -there. He played at the Vegas Club. I am trying to get it straight. -I think he was a guitar player. No; wait a minute, a horn player, -saxophone player I believe it was. And this buddy of his, they had an -act where the buddy lay down across two chairs and he stepped up on his -buddy’s chest and he stood on his buddy’s chest playing his horn. - -I believe that was Bobby Patterson. I am not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could this guy have been a police officer? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I am very doubtful of that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know any Bobby Patterson who was a police -officer? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is no question that you had met a guy named -Bobby Patterson. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No question there; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Andy Armstrong know Bobby Patterson? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe he would. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That entry is in pencil and there is a line with nothing -written on it and then there is another entry under that. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be 3902 East Waco. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before you didn’t think that was -your handwriting. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would change that. I would say that was 0902 if you -take a close look at it. You can see that, 0902 East Waco. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or could it be E Street Waco? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It might be that, but I never made the entry, I would -remember it if I saw it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 13. On the back of -page 13 there are some entries. What do those seem to be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’d say the first one would be call Jack at the Carousel. -The next one would be call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel. The next one would -be Tex Lacy. It is prevedo I would say or something like that. That is -all I can make out. Pre, and v-e-d-o. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. Were these entries “call Jack Carousel” and “Call Mr. -Ruby at the Carousel,” were these your entries? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe this would be my entry here, too. I am not -positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were those notes for yourself or—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something I told somebody else or -something. I don’t even—I can’t even figure why I would write it down. -I don’t know. That doesn’t really look like my handwriting. I wouldn’t -have put “Call Mr. Ruby.” I’d put “Call Jack.” And this looks like -“Mr.” up at the top of the page. It is something I can’t ever remember -putting something like that on the top of a page without finishing it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back portion of page 13. Page 14 is -about a third of a sheet written in pencil. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that say? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure what it is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated this is Boeing and something or other -afterward. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then “Frank Fisher.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you indicated before that you thought that was in -connection with twist boards. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still think that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It could be twist boards or something to do with these -dogs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think something to do with the dogs? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Boeing would be possibly Boeing Aircraft and I was making -arrangements to ship one of the dogs to California, so it could be -something to do with one of the dogs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a Frank Fisher who was a musician and who -was a friend of Jack Ruby’s? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met him. I am not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That information doesn’t refresh your recollection about -Frank Fisher at all? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 14. On the back of -page 14 there is a telephone number. - -Mr. CRAFARD. TA 7-2553. I don’t recall what the number would be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a notation about? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Tuna fish with lettuce wholewheat toast dry.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 14. Now on page 15 at the -top there is an entry. What is that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Charley Boland, KTVT with a number LA -6-8303. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember making a call to that number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about that notation? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; sir. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next telephone number on there, WE 7-3837? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything to me. I believe I stated -before I didn’t believe I put that down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about “Herman Flowers,” that doesn’t mean anything to -you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So the entry here “Herman Flowers from Wax a Hatchy” is -the last entry on the front part of page 15. - -We will turn that over and on the back of page 15 there are a lot of -numbers written down. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do those numbers have to do with? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea. It is definitely not my figuring. - -(Short recess taken.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We are on page 16 and we are looking at the first entry on -the page. What does that entry appear to be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “K. Hamilton.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; the rest of the page, I would say that it was somebody -had called in for reservations. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It says, “9—3 couples between runway.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that page 16 is a half sheet of paper and there is -nothing more on the page, and turning it over on the back part of that -half sheet of paper there is an entry. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Mr. Miller Friday 15 people Collins Radio Co.” It would -be somebody called in for reservations for 15 people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry under that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Cody-City Hall.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know who Cody was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had said something about it. I think he was an -officer of the law. I’m not sure if he was an officer of the law or a -lawyer, or what he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall? Do you recall the name Joe Cody? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall the first name of the gentleman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall that Jack said about Cody? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what Jack really did say. It had something -to do with when he give it to me it was something to do with city -hall, he had to see him, or he wanted me to remind him to call him, or -something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When would this have been? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Shortly before you left? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been 2 or 3 weeks. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing further on that half sheet of paper, is -there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, looking at the top of page 17 there is a number -written. What is that number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “TA 3-8101.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whose number that is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the doctor’s number. I’m not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Under there is written the name “Dr. Aranoff.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your writing? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who Dr. Aranoff was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He was Mrs. Grant’s doctor, as I recall it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall. I never had any conversation -with the doctor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it. And the next -line has what looks like a telephone number on it. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The number “FR 4-2764.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a Dallas telephone number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that. It might be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the number familiar to you at all? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall the number at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And on the next line, what is written? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “LA 8-4716,” the name “Debby.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the name Debby familiar to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and then -there is another line. - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Overton Rd.,” and “Hawthorne” underneath, it would be -Hawthorne Road Drive, I believe, “Porta Build, Inc.” company. This is -all something of my own here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that have to do with? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This is all on my own. At that time, I was going to try -to get in touch with my brother-in-law who lives in Dallas, Tex., and -this Overton Road, I believe, is where one of the people that I went to -church with lived, out on Hawthorne Drive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Porta—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. I had at one time worked for Porter Building Corp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you worked for them? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I had worked for them the year before, the previous year. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going to contact them? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about, maybe seeing if they needed any men -down there, or something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you make that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This was about a month before President Kennedy was -assassinated. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever contact them about a job? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I called them one time, I believe, and the gentleman -wasn’t there that I had talked to, and I never called back. The Litot -Trailer Park, that is where we was staying, where my wife and I lived -when we was living in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the next entry on there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is the number of the Litot Trailer Park. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 17, the front half. On the back half -of page 17 there is a notation. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Call Buddy Heard, El Paso, dial direct, tell them that you -are in town, that you are a friend and would like to get in touch with -him. This is something for Andy. He was to call Buddy Heard in El Paso. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy go to El Paso? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was to make a call; dial direct to El Paso as if he -was in El Paso. I don’t remember exactly what it had something to do -with. It seemed like this Buddy here was a comedian or something that -Jack was trying to hire or something of that sort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Andy going to try to hire him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was just he was doing that for Jack, trying to -find out how to get in touch with him. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two lines with no writing on them, and then -there is another entry. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name Mary. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anybody named Mary, in Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me except the fact that my -sister-in-law’s name is Mary. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me whatsoever. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the next telephone number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning, either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That last telephone number on the page is RI 1-1456, and -the other telephone number on that page is DA 4-4378. That concludes -the back of page 17. Turning over to page 18, there are some entries on -there. What is the first entry on the page? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It is D 2 with a dash and then the figure 175, $1.75. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure unless it is maybe some draws I took that -day or something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is $2 and not $200? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It might possibly be $200. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any dealings with anybody about spending $200? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the notation after that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack took $20 from the bar till. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when that was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry after that, “Pete White Atty.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Pete White, attorney, Fidelity Union Life Building, with a -number, RI 1-1295. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that entry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anything about Pete White? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what is the next entry on there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The next entry has to do with the twist boards. It is, -“Call beauty salon; tell them that I have a twist-a-waist exerciser,” -and let them have it for $2; in quantities for $1.75 each. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to suggest that the $2-175 that is written at -the top of the page and this same entry about $2 and $1.75 both relate -to twist boards? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 18. Turning over to -page 18—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. The first thing on the page is “Jimmy Rhodes can tell -where to get blowups at.” Some blowups of some pictures that Jack -wanted and this fellow Jimmy Rhodes could tell him where to get them at. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jimmy Rhodes? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I heard Jack mention the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and the -name? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Wooldridge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. Then -there is a telephone number. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The number WH 6-6220. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that number mean anything to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is another line with nothing written on it; and -the notation “8-5 tomorrow.” What did that have to do with? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. And the -name Bob Litchfield. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And a telephone number after that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It is TA 7-9301. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a name after that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mrs. Moddy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is she? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his bookkeeper. I’m not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are some numbers. That concludes page 18, does -it not? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of a telephone number, RI 7-5311, which -is right under the name Mrs. Moddy. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine it is her number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is some writing on the inside of the back -cover. There are three telephone numbers, RI 7-7436, CH 2-3442, CH -2-4114. What do those numbers relate to, if you know? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another number Newton. There is a name -Newton. Does that mean anything to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive of that. It doesn’t appear to be my -writing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the number written under the name Newton? - -Mr. CRAFARD. 2550. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I don’t ever recall of having wrote any of those -written in ink. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be everything on that page except the RI 7-7436? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the outside portion of the back cover there are -some other things written on there. See if you can tell us what those -are. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name J. L. Coxsey. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know this person? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. The name Coxsey is the name of one of the gentlemen I -went to church with when my wife and I were living in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that be spelled? - -Mr. CRAFARD. His name was Lee Coxsey. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the same gentleman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. And there is the number under that -that I can’t make out. Then there is a number EV 1-6979, and there is, -it looks like LV or something. I can’t understand that a bit. There is -the number FL 2-8995. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those things in your handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you left that book when you departed -from Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was either in Jack’s office or in the room right in -front of his office where I slept days. I’m not positive whether I left -it on his desk or on a stand in my room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But in any event did you leave it in the open, or did you -leave it in a drawer? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was lying right out on top of a table or a -desk, whichever it was. I’m not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert do you have any questions you want to ask? - -Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you to say earlier this morning that -normally you kept that book on your person? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t leave it hanging around? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. On occasion, Jack would be there and I -would be giving him a number and he would want me to go down maybe get -a paper or something like that and I’d leave the book lay on one of the -tables near the phone and go down and come back up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you would get your book back? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I guess it is fair to say, then, that except for those -occasions, and then when you left the book, when you departed from -Dallas, the book was always in your possession? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever notice that some of the entries were made by -someone else in that book prior to the time you left for Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that they were not made prior to the -time you left for Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, specifically, some of the entries that you have said -are not in your handwriting—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were not in that book when you left for Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. What makes you sure of that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Nobody else had wrote in the book. - -Mr. HUBERT. No one had a chance to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack would have had a chance to on a few occasions? - -Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions he had a notebook just like it -that he carried himself. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw these entries even after Jack had -occasion to write them in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I never noticed them. - -Mr. HUBERT. And no one else had a chance to write them in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that those entries were written -prior to the time you left Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I doubt it very much. It was possible, but I doubt very -much if they were. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you testified this morning earlier, too, that the book -seemed to be somewhat different from when you last saw it in Dallas. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what ways did it seem different? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were more pages in it than was there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Pages with writing, or blank pages? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall whether they was all blank pages or whether -they had writing on them, or what. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: Do you recall any particular pages -that are not in that book at the present time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are not in a position to say, then, really, that any -pages with information on them have been taken out? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your impression that the book is different than it was -before you left Dallas is based then upon the size of the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to have fewer blank pages now than it did -before? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I thought there was half a dozen or so blank pages in -the middle of the book last time I used it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your purpose in leaving the book in Dallas when -you determined to go away? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was numbers that, to me, that had to do with this -business and they didn’t mean anything to me, so I just left it there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that deliberately? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I figured they was numbers that he wanted. It didn’t -mean anything to me. I had no use for it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You wanted to see that he got them? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know where you left the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I either left it—I am not positive exactly where I left -it. It was either in his office on the desk or in my room on a stand -where he would have saw it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you didn’t write a note saying why you -were leaving, where you would be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t say why other than what I have said the other day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that Jack would argue you into staying? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I thought he probably would; if I called him or anything -he would probably do his best to get me to stay, and I had made up my -mind to leave and I didn’t want to have to argue with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that wouldn’t have prevented your writing a note. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or of calling Armstrong. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even think about it a bit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think at all about calling anybody? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t even a matter that you pondered as to whether -you should or should not call? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; nothing I had thought of. I never had any idea. I -didn’t feel that there was any real reason for me to call anyone. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that you felt grateful to Jack for what -he had done for you. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that the motivation for your leaving was not any anger. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. On your part against him, but, rather, that you wanted to -see your sister? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t think you owed it to him just to leave him a note? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It just never entered my mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that there might be a question of how -much cash you had in fact taken? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the salary that was owed to you? Weren’t you -interested in that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even think about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t say goodbye to anybody when you left Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t advise anyone that you were leaving Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; other than the fact that I give the key to the boy at -the parking lot and told him to tell Jack goodbye for me. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did send a message of goodbye to Jack through this man? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave word where you would be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave any message to the effect that you had taken -$5 out of the till? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I left a draw slip in the till just like I always have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in any kind of trouble there with a girl or -something of that sort? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. That required you to leave as hastily as you did? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it your custom to move around like that without leaving -any contact points? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Quite frequently; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who knew you were working at the Carousel among your family -or friends? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had wrote my cousin and informed her. I -believe I wrote my mother and informed her. - -Mr. HUBERT. This girl Gail knew it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is my cousin. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is your cousin? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the cousin I was referring to at this time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you expect to have happen to the mail that you got -at the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even realize I had left any mail. I had wrote to -the people. I hadn’t been getting any answers. My mother doesn’t write -an awful lot, and I hadn’t got any letters from my cousin for a little -while. My sister hadn’t answered the letter I wrote to her, so I just—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you going out with a girl that you had gotten -fairly close to by that time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She had left Texas at this time. She had left Texas and, -as far as I know, went out to California. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else that you were interested in there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you say to us now that in your opinion, and by this I -mean your departure from Dallas under the circumstances you did depart -was normal in your life? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Somewhat, yes; most of the time I go to leave, I just take -off and go. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have done that before? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Many times? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’ve done it two or three times I can recall. I usually -leave from around my people, if I’m around my sister I’ll say something -to her that I’m going to take off and where I plan on going. If I -leave home I usually say something to the folks on where I plan on -going. - -Mr. HUBERT. After you found out that Jack had killed Oswald, did it -ever occur to you that the way in which you had left Dallas might seem -odd? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it did occur to me that it might seem very odd. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that view to anyone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I think I said something to my sister to the effect that -I thought it might be kind of suspicious the way I had left Dallas, so -suddenly, without saying anything to anybody. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to your cousin, too? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I said anything to Gail about -that or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us that you spoke to your cousin, I am -talking about Roberts now, about the fact that you had left Dallas on -Saturday evening and the manner in which you left. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall saying anything to him about the fact that -I thought it might be suspicious. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not suggesting that. But what I want to ask you -is whether he thought that the way in which you left might throw some -suspicion. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall him saying anything about it, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that perhaps one easy way to clarify -your position would be to contact the FBI or some police agency and -tell them where you were? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t think about that. I figured that if they were -looking for me, if I had heard anything about the fact that they were -looking for me I figured I’d go to the nearest police station and tell -them who I was and that they was looking for me. But that is the only -thing I thought about on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you rather know that they were looking for you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn’t positive that they were. I thought they might be; -yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had a pretty good idea that they might be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, I thought they might be looking for me but I -wasn’t positive. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wouldn’t you want to find out positive evidence they were -looking for you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. If there had been any definite evidence they were looking -for me, I would have went into the nearest police station and told them -who I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by definite evidence? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The fact I knew for sure they were. I said I just thought -that they might be. - -Mr. HUBERT. You just told us that you thought that they might be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right; I said that I thought they might be. - -Mr. HUBERT. That wasn’t enough to cause you to—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it isn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you contemplating, as a matter of fact, going to some -police agency prior to the time the FBI came to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe that I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you expect to get this positive evidence that they -were looking for you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I just figured if it was possible they might put something -in the paper or maybe something over the radio or something and if I -heard that they was looking for a young fellow that had worked for Ruby -by the name of Larry or anything like that, they was looking for this -young fellow that had worked for Ruby or anything, that I would have -went in and told them who I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understood you said there was no radio or newspaper at -your sister’s house. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; but I was at other people’s places that had radios. - -Mr. HUBERT. You expected to get the information that way? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t stay with my sister all the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you were making an effort to find out if they were -looking for you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I was where I would have found out if it was so, yes, on -several occasions. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you went to listen to radio programs or TV -programs with an effort to find out, among other things, whether they -were looking for you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you might communicate with them and tell them where -you were? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I figured one thing. I hadn’t done anything -wrong. I had no reason to hide from anything because I hadn’t done -anything wrong, so if there had been any indication whatsoever that -they was looking for me I would have walked into the nearest police -station and turned myself in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that anybody else had done anything wrong? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I knew from what I had heard that Ruby had killed, -shot Oswald, I knew it was wrong. Like I say, I mean I had no idea that -anybody else connected with him had done anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. What made you think in the first place that there might be -some suspicion cast upon you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way I left, after I found out that Ruby shot -Oswald, the way I left, I thought just suddenly like that, didn’t leave -any word to anybody where I was going or anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. How would that connect you with the killing of Oswald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I had been working for Ruby. He had shot Oswald. It could -be kind of insinuating circumstances why I left and everything like -that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you had left before Oswald was shot? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had left before Oswald was shot. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that really your concern was not that they would connect -you with the killing of Oswald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. But that—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. They might think that I had done something wrong, myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. With reference to what? - -Mr. CRAFARD. To anything. I mean breaking the law in any way. - -Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the shooting of the President, too? - -Mr. CRAFARD. How is that? - -Mr. HUBERT. With reference to shooting of the President? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it could be that they might have thought I was -involved in that in some way or something like that, and I just figured -if they thought, you know, the way I had left if they had any idea at -all that would further their idea, I mean if they had any idea that any -of Ruby’s employees were involved in it, that would further the idea -that I had been involved in this, in it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You actually thought about that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I felt—— - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the thing that gave you concern and that is what -you talked to your sister about? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it kind of bothered me a little bit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Couldn’t you have ended the bother by going to the nearest -police force? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I probably could have. I never even thought about going in -like that, just walking in and talking to them, asking them about it or -anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear when you left Dallas that things might be -happening which would get you in trouble? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; it never entered my mind. I figured that that would be -the end of things when they had caught Oswald, I kind of figured that -would be the end of it and he would come to trial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear that things might be happening which would -get Jack or other people you knew in trouble? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it point blank to you, Larry. Did you think that -possibly Ruby or someone among his friends might have had something to -do with this and the best thing for you to do as an innocent person was -to get out of there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn’t, because if I had had the slightest idea -that him or anybody he knew had anything to do with it, the first thing -I would have done would have been to walk right straight down to the -police station. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then when you found out that he had killed Oswald, -didn’t it occur to you that he might be killing Oswald to remove the -President’s murderer? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it really did occur to me at that time; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. You see the point now, don’t you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I understand what you are trying to say. But later we -discussed the fact that Oswald and Ruby might have been connected, as I -believe everybody else has. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there is anything, can you think of anything -as a result of what you saw down there in Dallas that would indicate -that Jack shot Oswald out of some kind of fear? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t really think of anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Out of some motive of self-preservation other than, or not -necessarily connected with the shooting of the President, but that he -would have feared Oswald in any kind of a way? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything that would prove that, that -would give me any reason to believe that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea on the basis of your experience with -Jack and so forth as to why he shot Oswald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I haven’t, other than the fact that I believed ever -since it happened that Jack was out of his mind. I believe right today -that the man should be in a mental institution. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that simply because you can’t conceive of anybody doing -what he did, or from some other facts? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t conceive of a man that is in his right mind -walking up to a man, just walking up to a man, putting a gun in his -belly and pulling the trigger. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In a police station? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I can’t conceive of it, of any man that is -in his right mind doing so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But, other than that, is there any indication that you had -that Jack wasn’t in his right mind? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw him for a period of about maybe 18 hours -after the President was shot. In that period that you saw him after the -President was shot, is there anything that indicated to you that he -wasn’t in his right mind in the way that, you know, his behavior was -markedly different? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From the way Jack Ruby usually acted? - -Mr. CRAFARD. One thing he was kind of, when he would speak it was kind -of a choppy way of speaking. He would say two or three words, wait and -then say two or three more, which wasn’t usual for Jack. He might bust -off in the middle of a sentence and then pause for a couple of seconds -before he completed the sentence. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this what you were referring to when you talked about -Jack being nervous? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very much that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the kind of nervousness that a man might have if he -were afraid himself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is possible, a man that was afraid for -himself would be nervous like this; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You observed those conditions prior to the time you left? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. This nervous condition? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; on the night when we went out and took those pictures -he was pretty well that way, he would talk in a burst and he would stop -and then talk in a burst again. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, isn’t it a fact that the reason why you left -was because you didn’t want to have any part of what you saw going on -then? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t understand what you mean by that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You saw Jack being nervous. You saw him taking all these -pictures. You saw his great concern about the death of the President. -Didn’t it occur to you, and isn’t it a fact that the reason you had -left was because you figured that you didn’t want to have any part of -anything that was going on, although you didn’t know what was going on? -Isn’t that a fact? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I cannot say that it is, because I had no idea there -was anything going on, period. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about Jack that indicated to you a -peculiar concern about the death of the President, that the death of -the President itself was some sort of a concern, a great concern to him -more than it seemed to be to you or to Andy or anybody else? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It seemed to me more like it was more of a personal effect -on him than it did on anybody else that I talked to very much. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really explain it. To me, I was shocked and -everything, but it wasn’t like it had been a member, more or less, say, -a member of my own family. With him, it hit him more like it had been a -member of his own family, it seemed to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There was something he said in that connection? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I think he said something, but I don’t recall what he said. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Were you present when Jack learned -that Officer Tippit had been shot? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I’m not sure. I think Jack was at the club -or come to the club just shortly afterward. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack’s talking about Officer Tippit? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think he said he knew him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk a lot about the death of the President? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe any more than anybody else did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Tippit? Did he talk about that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall as he said much about it other than the -fact that he said he knew him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated yesterday that you felt Jack’s concern -over the death of the President was related to his concern for the -convention business in Dallas. You remarked about his saying this is -going to ruin the convention business. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Something to that effect. That was one of the first things -he said, but that was the only time he referred to it that I can recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you look at his activities, do you think that his -concern or what had happened down in Dallas, meaning the death of the -President and perhaps even the death of Officer Tippit, that Jack’s -concern might have been more related to his fear about what would be -happening to his business rather than any sympathy and grief over the -man himself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t say that he did. I mean it seems to me like if -a man was really concerned about his business he wouldn’t have closed -Friday night like he did. It seems to me like something like that—you -know what I mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But, again, that is an impression you are drawing from -some sort of outside event? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you to look at just what Jack was talking -about and the things that he seemed to be concerned with and occupied -with after the death of the President. - -Were they things, was his conversation mostly about the President, or -was it mostly about the things that he had to do in Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was mostly about the President, as near as I -can recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him at the Carousel about the -President? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, while he was there the first time we was talking about -it. I’m trying to recall there was something said there when he said -something about he was going to be closed, that we was going to be -closed that night. He seemed to think if we closed and the other clubs -stayed open it might help a little bit, help the club a little bit, or -something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So that in Jack’s mind closing was an aid to his business? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Larry, when you decided to go, to leave Dallas, I take it -that you packed up all your belongings because you didn’t expect to -come back. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us you had two little cases? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you search around to see that you had done all that -needed to be done? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I knew I had everything that I wanted to take with me. I -left a couple old shirts and a pair of old pants, I believe, that I -left there. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you left the book? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about that letter that you had written to Gale? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t even recall a letter that I had wrote to her that -I had left there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that there was a letter there with your aunt’s -address on it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I had received a letter, but I believe I had threw the -envelope into the waste basket or something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long before you left had you received that letter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I think it had been probably about a week, I’m not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it stay in the wastebasket all that time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had it lay on my desk, on the table there, for a -couple days, 3 or 4 days, or something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then threw it in the wastepaper basket? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the wastebasket wouldn’t have gotten empty until I -emptied it, and I wouldn’t have emptied it until it was full. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else know about your aunt, her address in -Harrison? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack and Andy both knew that I had received a -letter from my cousin. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your aunt and cousin? Well, it is Gail? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Gail, Miss Eaton. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did they know that? How do you remember that they knew -that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact, the reason I remember it, there was some -mail in on Jack’s desk for one of the guys and he told me to bring it -out by the cash register on the front desk and give it to them when I -went in, and when I went and got it there was this letter addressed to -me. I said something to Jack because he hadn’t give it to me and he -said he didn’t know that was my name, and Andy was there when I said -something. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a -record of your aunt’s address? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware -of your aunt’s address or of Gail Eaton’s address? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper -basket? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about -my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she -lived in Harrison. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think -it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that she lived in Harrison? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin? - -Mr. CRAFARD. A first cousin. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sort of affection between you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you told that to the girls? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the fact. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had -killed Oswald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it. -I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done -with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her when you left? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her or them—by them I mean your aunt and -uncle—the circumstances under which you had left? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I did or not, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald’s -being shot. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon -Saturday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about -the matter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I -heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby’s that -had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was -and that I had been working for Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really -discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be -under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor -your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife, -expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about -that I might be suspected of anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. The only one you really talked to about that was your -sister? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came, -didn’t you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you really hadn’t had an opportunity to listen to -any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one -of Jack’s employees who had left suddenly? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not too much; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you had any? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they -had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over -the news that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you -heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed -much earlier than when you got to see your sister? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was formed when? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot -Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about -that—that they was hunting for one of Ruby’s employees—I would have -gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an -employee of Ruby’s. - -Mr. HUBERT. I guess we had better break for lunch. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED - -(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the -beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation -of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard -and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at -the beginning is still in effect for this deposition. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further -documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had -lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally -some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events -that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left -Dallas, and I might—I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope -I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that -you would clarify the record on it. - -I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual -relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George -Senator? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George -were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your view of their relationship? - -Mr. CRAFARD. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no -relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the -fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other -that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that -topic, Mr. Hubert? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both -Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. But your point now is that they might be, but that you -didn’t perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced -homosexuality between themselves? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were -both—appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed -no—but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two -of them in this way. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that -Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep -secret from other people. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability, -whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that -activity? - -Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him, -I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage -in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of -it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that? - -Mr. HUBERT. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there—you have -any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you -mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time. - -Would you tell us what that was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of -the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. - -Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe -that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had -been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I -wasn’t positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was -made before I left Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to me you had some idea? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I thought it had been Andrew. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say before you left Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Before I left Dallas after the assassination. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about -Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been -Andrew who said this because I had talked to him—been with him—more -than I had been with anybody else on that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Andrew since? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to him, then? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn’t even thought about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about it then? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you -between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o’clock in the -afternoon of the 23d. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Andy after that, did you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw Andy—I never saw Andy after the 22d, when -President Kennedy was assassinated. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and -then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t Ruby who said that, was it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t George Senator who said it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the -phone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t mention it to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made -before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left -Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left -Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before -I left Dallas on the 23d. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be -Armstrong; isn’t that right? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is no question about that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Because you didn’t speak to anybody else that you could -have gotten it from? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. I didn’t read the papers on it too -much. I had a couple of the papers—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other -news media? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby—that -Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to -what person that might have been? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I cannot. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been any of your relatives? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been anybody you worked with? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas -it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that -Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on -television Sunday. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t see television Sunday, I was on the road all -the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t stop in any restaurants or bars and watch -television along the way? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and -saw him on the morning after. - -Mr. HUBERT. On Monday? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby, -when you called him at his home—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody -other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not to talk to anybody; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom -you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the -assassination? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we discussed it very much. He was telling -me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I -recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about the fact that I -worked for Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen -Oswald at the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever been in the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday—or on Friday, rather, the day of the -assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the -Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Some, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Oswald’s picture on television on -Friday? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember watching television or listening to the -radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was -the suspect? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see. I believe we heard that over the television. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you -heard that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your -activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to -Eva Grant’s house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some -detail? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just a vague outline is all I can do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did -first, how long you watched television, and so forth. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I had the television on the rest of the day up until -about—it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television -off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the television set located? - -Mr. CRAFARD. In Jack’s office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How big an office did he have? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, about 10 by 10 or 10 by 12. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have chairs in there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office -watching television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into -that office and start to watch television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Almost immediately. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you stay in there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the -television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We -switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and -listened to Andy’s radio until the television warmed up, and then we -watched television. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby wasn’t there at that time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you stood in front of the television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, we stood and watched the television. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it possible to sit in Jack’s office and watch -television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just a couple of minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, and where was the television set? - -Mr. CRAFARD. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind -the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television -set? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the -television set? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a telephone in that office? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away, how many extensions were there to the -telephone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was three of them altogether. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There were three extensions or was there a telephone—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. The telephone and two extensions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Where were the two extensions in relation to -the telephone in Jack’s office? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was one by the bar and one by the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would that be from Jack’s office, each of -those? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The first one, the one by the door would probably be 20, -maybe 20, 25 feet from the office. The other one would be maybe about -10 feet further, between 30 and 35 feet, I would say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You and Andy placed yourselves in front of that television -set? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall happening, what was the first thing, -do you have any recollection of what you saw on television, how things -transpired on television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I believe they were at the hospital. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Pardon? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were at the hospital when we turned the -television on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall seeing some scenes at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I can recall seeing some scenes but I am not sure -whether it was as soon as we turned the television on or afterwards -during that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall seeing on television before Jack Ruby -came into the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really recall what we saw on television. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were, between the time you turned that -television set on and sat down and watched it and Jack came in, did -you leave the office, did you do other duties in the club, or just -watch TV? - -Mr. CRAFARD. We just watched television. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in, were you people seated in -his office? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack arrived, did you go out into the outer part of -the club to talk with Jack, or did you remain in the office? - -Mr. CRAFARD. We went out by the front door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. More room for all of us to sit down who was in the office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you watch television from the front door? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep abreast of the news while you were out there -by the front door? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Andy had his transistor radio on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was between the time that you -and Andy sat there and watched television before Jack came in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t really say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a clock in Jack’s office? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever looking at that clock while you were -watching television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; the clock wasn’t—It was one you had to wind, and it -wasn’t wound half the time. We didn’t pay any attention to it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ordinarily wear a watch? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t, there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period before Jack Ruby came in, did you get a meal -of any sort, any food? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Andy discuss the events on television as you -sat and watched it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we did. I don’t recall saying anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody come into the club before Jack arrived? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the female employees of the club -arriving at the club on the day, on the 22d? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you think specifically about Tammi True, do you -recall if she came? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you say you don’t recall, that is not the same -as saying that she didn’t come in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would -you, that she didn’t come in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would not make that statement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as to any of the other girls—Joy Dale, for -example? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t make the statement of the fact that none of -them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them -came into the club, but I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5, -10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t recall anybody coming in and staying as long -as 10 minutes? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the -front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones? - -Mr. CRAFARD. We was right beside the telephone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the one near the door? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one -at the bar? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep -your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation? - -Mr. CRAFARD. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we -could hear, but we was talking. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long -pauses in the conversation? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. We might have stopped, -we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time; I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. It seems to me he was there probably a -couple of hours. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the -club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his -office and watch television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we did; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with -Jack in his office watching television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his -office to watch television? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. It seems to me like it wasn’t very long after he came -before we went back into the office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about -the dog that you were going to send to California? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not on that day, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had talked about that, would you remember it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would have, I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the -President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you -worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn’t that a -fair statement? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when -that shock hit you. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it -came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one -of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you -admitted it was a shock. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who -told it to you, or was anybody else present? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is -very vague in my mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your best guess—that Andy Armstrong told you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would -have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some -person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn’t it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can’t you help us -a bit more as to who actually told you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I can’t. I have thought about it. I can’t recall -exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was -before I left Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us -it had to be Armstrong? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this -morning, Larry. I don’t want you to feel bound by what you said at -another time unless it was the truth. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I realize that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving -Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and -that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted -out of it. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is not true? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that is not true. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say that is not true even if it is possible that -Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious -thought. It wasn’t conscious to where I would remember it. It would -have been a subconscious thought that it was the case. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand you when you say it was a subconscious -thought. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just that. It wouldn’t have been something that I thought -about for any period of time. It would have been something that I -had heard it and it just, I didn’t even think about it, and then -subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on -a conscious level I will say no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told -you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had it been Armstrong wouldn’t you have asked him, “Well, -how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see -him? Who was he with?” You would have asked those questions, wouldn’t -you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would have asked him how he knew for sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall asking the person who told you that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people -that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had -shot Oswald, wouldn’t it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about -Ruby being involved with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is correct. But you didn’t find out about Ruby being -involved until Monday morning. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are -concerned? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, if I wasn’t in Dallas. I believe that I -heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d. - -Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other -things, it had to be Armstrong. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. That is all I can—I can’t say for sure who -it was, and I can’t even say for sure that I heard the statement before -I left Dallas. But I believe that it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think -about this statement? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives -in Michigan about it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I -don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not -been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had -made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your -relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby’s performers -or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do -you think you would have remembered that kind of information being -conveyed to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I might have remembered something about the fact that one -of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had -been there; but I wouldn’t necessarily remember who it was who had said -it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby’s entertainers -claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been that—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know which entertainer it was or employee who -said that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t really know whether it was true or not. I -probably would state the fact that I had never saw him there personally -that I knew of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me get through with this and see if this won’t help you -out. - -If you had heard this statement that Oswald had been in the Carousel, -before you knew that Ruby had shot him, that would have had one -reaction on you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that the man happened to be in the club. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you had heard it after you knew Ruby had shot Oswald, -I suggest to you that that would have been an entirely different -reaction, because then it ties in Ruby and the club. Now doesn’t -that assist you by determining what your reaction was when you heard -it, whether it was the first type of reaction or the second type of -reaction, or do you agree with me that your reaction would have been -different depending upon when you heard it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you accept my version that there would be two different -types along the lines I have said? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there would have been. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your reaction, the first or the second? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, when you talked with the FBI on Thanksgiving Day—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe the FBI asked you did you know any connection -between Ruby and Oswald. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe your answer at that time was that you did -not. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with the FBI were you being as frank and -straight-forward with them as you are with us right now? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; as much as I—to the best of my knowledge I told them -nothing but the truth the same as I am doing with you gentlemen. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to them that you then knew that someone had -told you that Oswald had been in the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I did because I—I don’t believe I did. I -didn’t recall it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you stating to us that you would not have recalled a -statement made to you about Oswald being in the club, which statement -had, by any hypothesis, already been made to you, when they asked you -if you knew of any connection between them? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The thing is that if I remembered it, I would have said -so, told, said something to them. If I didn’t say anything to them, I -didn’t remember the fact. - -Mr. HUBERT. They asked you if you knew of any connection between them, -didn’t they? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you then knew that someone had told you he had been in -the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you tell them that you knew that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I evidently didn’t remember it. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you have already stated that this thing made a great -impression upon you. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I know that, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me follow this through a bit. Didn’t they, in fact, ask -you if you had heard the rumor that Oswald had been in the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know exactly how he asked me about it, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t he ask you, in fact, if you had ever seen him in the -club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he asked me that question; yes. I believe he -might have. My answer would have been—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Is your statement to us if he asked you that question it -would not have recalled to your memory that someone had told you that -he had been in the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. My statement is that it did not at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a little bit frightened when the FBI talked with -you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at all concerned that your flight from Dallas -might make you a suspect of some sort? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe—I don’t remember having any such belief; -no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your feeling towards the FBI when they talked to -you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That they were talking to me because of the fact that I -had worked for Ruby, and they wanted to know what I knew about Ruby’s -movements in hopes that there might be something there that would help -them in their investigation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time when you talked to the FBI you formed a -tentative opinion about the connection between Ruby and Oswald or the -motivation for Jack’s doing what he did? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I figured, formed the opinion, myself, as far as I could -figure Jack must have been out of his mind to shoot Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this, would you say this was a strong opinion that you -had? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I will say that it is the sort of opinion I have now, -it has been right along ever since I found out that Ruby had shot -Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But in spite of having that opinion that there was -somewhere along the line you began to think if there could be any -connection between Ruby and Oswald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I have considered the fact that there was a connection; -yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start to think about this? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine I more likely thought about it as soon as I -found out or just shortly after I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In trying to think about that connection, have you been -thinking about this rather regularly since then? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I have pretty well forgot just about, even, almost -forgot about it entirely. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it has been that you have been—have -forgotten about any thoughts you might have had that there could be a -connection between Ruby and Oswald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I have just almost completely—I haven’t had a -thought about any of this since I appeared at the trial. I was of the -opinion that I was through with it and that I would just as soon forget -about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about when you started to work in the oil field up -there in Michigan for the drilling company? At that time, did you -ponder from time to time whether there was any connection between Ruby -and Oswald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember doing so; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Keeping these sort of questions in mind, can you tell us -when it was before today that you first remembered that somebody might -have told you that Oswald had been at the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I know definitely that I was told by somebody that Oswald -had been in the club, but I haven’t given that fact too much thought -until we was talking this afternoon during the lunch break there, and -it seemed to me the statement had been made to me before I left Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you when you remembered that statement. Keep -in mind I am distinguishing between the time you actually heard the -statement made and when you first remembered it again. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I remembered hearing the statement that Oswald had been in -the club, but I believe there was something in the news about the fact -that he had been in the club two or three times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you saw this in the news, did that bring -to you a recollection that someone had also told you this independently? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it doing so; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it possible that the recollection that you are -giving us here is simply something that you really didn’t hear anybody -tell you but that you just read in the newspapers? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It could be that it is mixed up in my own mind about the -fact that it come out that way, but I wouldn’t know for sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure now whether you independently remember -somebody telling you this or whether you just read about it in the -newspaper, and now are confused as to whether your source is from -somebody telling you or from the newspaper? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am almost positive that the statement was made to me by -a person, but it could have been that, like I say it could have been, -after I left Dallas, after it came out that Ruby had shot Oswald, -somebody had heard the statement over the television or read it in the -newspapers themselves, and made the statement to me that they had heard -that he had been in the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. I come back to the point I made a little while ago, and I -would like you to consider it again because apparently, as you say, -you have not given this matter a great deal of thought up until now. I -suggest to you again that your reaction when you heard it would have -been quite different if you had heard that rumor about Oswald being in -the club before Ruby shot Oswald than it would have been if you had -heard it after he shot him. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now that reaction of yours is, I think, the key to your -recollection of it, and I suggest that you put your mind to it, Larry, -to see what—to have a recollection, if you can, which is true, of -course, but which will reflect what your reaction was. It has got to be -a different reaction between the two, and I think you have agreed with -me on that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do. I believe that—I am not sure whether it was -hearing a statement there when it was made to me or hearing it over the -television or something like that. It was something about the statement -where I said that if he had been I didn’t know about it, and I didn’t -believe Jack did either or something of that effect. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you are telling us then that at the time you -heard this you made a comment? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. You made a comment to the person who told you that Oswald -had been in the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time you made that comment that you hadn’t -seen Oswald in the club, you said you didn’t believe that Ruby did it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t believe that Ruby had saw him in the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. That must have been then after Ruby was involved? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would put it after Monday morning, November 25? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, according to that it couldn’t have been before you left -Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. According to that; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you still, in light of that do you still, have the -recollection that you did hear it before you left Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Larry: If you had heard this before -you left Dallas, was your feeling nevertheless about Ruby’s insanity -or state of mind so strong at the point when you learned that Ruby -shot Oswald that you would have regarded such a statement as being of -minimal importance or was your initial reaction to Ruby’s having shot -Oswald a sort of quizzical one in which you really hadn’t made up your -mind about the man? - -Mr. CRAFARD. My original reaction when I first heard about it was the -fact I couldn’t really believe that he had done it. I just couldn’t -believe, I couldn’t make myself believe, that Jack had done it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? Was there something about Jack—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of him he didn’t strike me as the type of -person that would do so. I later made up my mind that, I come to the -opinion, if he had done it, if he had done it, he must have been insane -when he had done it, before I saw anything on television about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that your initial reaction that Jack -couldn’t have done this also reflected what you had seen of him on -Friday and Saturday, that he wasn’t in such—didn’t appear to you to be -in such—a state of mind at that time as being one who wanted to go out -and kill. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And who wasn’t so upset about the killing of the President -that he would be motivated by grief or something like that to do such a -thing. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn’t see him crying or weeping or emotionally, -terribly emotionally, upset about the President? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t actually see him crying. His eyes were very -red as if he had been crying the last time I saw him on Friday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is that Saturday morning? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Friday. But then again it struck me so hard that when I -finally realized that it really had happened, it struck me so hard, -that I almost cried myself. I believe there was a lot of people -throughout the country, men and women alike, that cried when they heard -about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But still other than that reaction which you saw on Jack, -there seemed to be nothing about Jack that made him appear any more -grief stricken than any of the rest of you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of a person who was given to concealing -his emotions? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not so far as I know; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about concealing his hostility toward other people, -did you ever have any indication that he concealed his hostility toward -other people? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact, I would say it would be the other way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any people that he regarded as enemies in -Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. One person that he absolutely didn’t have any liking for -was this one MC from one of the other clubs that come up there once in -a while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack display his feelings toward that guy? - -Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, on two or three occasions, he told -the guy he didn’t care to have him around the club, and he just as soon -he didn’t come to the club, and on one occasion he told the man to -leave the club and not to come back again. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But after the man was out of his sight was Jack the kind -of person that he continued to talk about him and complain to the -employees or other people that he was with about somebody who was—about -whom he was annoyed or upset with? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went on for a few minutes about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about his feelings toward his -sister Eva? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you weren’t aware of any hard feelings between Eva and -Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his feelings toward Abe Weinstein, the man who -ran the Colony Club, did Jack discuss those feelings? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. From what I can remember any time Jack talked to Mr. -Weinstein they got along fairly good. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So am I correct in understanding the way you describe Jack -when he had somebody that he didn’t like or had some hostility toward, -that he would only display this in the presence of that person in -solving some problem with the individual face to face? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me get back to the afternoon of the 22d again. What -time did Andrew Armstrong leave, do you remember? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the exact time; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, about? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 3:30, 4 o’clock, maybe a little later. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave before Jack left? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was after Jack left. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw him again really until you saw him in the -courthouse in Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Later that night you were with Jack; weren’t you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, everybody was reading, talking about -Oswald. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure; sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that Ruby had a paper, was reading a -newspaper? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He more than likely did, but I don’t remember it, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are aware that Oswald had shot the President or -that it was believed that he had? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were talking with Ruby about the whole thing, -weren’t you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I imagine. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if at that time you knew from Armstrong that -Oswald had been in the club, don’t you think you would have mentioned -to Jack, “Say, you know somebody says Oswald was in the club?” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe I would have mentioned the fact that I had -been told that Oswald had been in the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does that help your memory as to when you got this remark? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t. The fact it even makes me more positive -that it was after I left Dallas before I heard about it, because if I -had said something like that to Jack I believe I would have remembered -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll tell you what I suggest you do, since the matter -has only been really brought to your attention in the last hour or -so, you know, I suggest that you give it some more thought and try -to reconcile the different possibilities that exist as to when this -information came to you in light of the questions we have asked you and -the possibilities that have been expressed. Would you do that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I have been doing so right along. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go to something else, and we can come back to that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it might be well to let it rest for a while. I am -going to hand you, Larry, a Xerox copy of pages out of the notebook, -and I have marked this “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard -Exhibit 5203, April 9, 1964,” and I am going to sign my name to it. -Now, I want you to take this Exhibit 5203 and look at those pages and -leaf through it and tell me if you have ever seen that before. - -Mr. CRAFARD. There are nine pages in this one. I believe this is a -notebook that Jack carried in his pocket. - -(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5203 for -identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you believe that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I recall seeing a notebook with these tear-out tabs on it -that he carried. I am not sure whether this is the one or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Xerox copy which I have handed you is marked on -the cover page “This is a Robinson Reminder.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there are what you call tear sheets. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the first one say? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Jot it down....” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The second tear sheet, tear-out sheet? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Do it....” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The third? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Tear it out....” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the fourth? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “Live notes only.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all the tear-out tabs on what appear to be on -the front cover? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It is printing, and it is pretty hard to recognize it. I -believe this was Jack’s notebook. It is his handwriting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it is his handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not the notebook, is it, that you transferred -entries into from your small Penway spiral notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you believe Jack carried this notebook in his pocket? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let us go through these entries and see if you recognize -any of them. - -Mr. CRAFARD. There are a few in there I know the names of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandy? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That has no meaning to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The second entry is A. F. McKnight. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Pepper? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she had been a stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed as a stripper while you were there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard some talk about her? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds like one of the girls I mentioned as a -stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Strike that. Jack Yanover? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Harold Tannebaum? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Margaret Caldwell? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Kirk Dial or Kirk Diaz? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say Dial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. James Herbert? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jules Herbert? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what is written under Jules Herbert? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It looks to me like “Sherry care of Lincoln-Houston.” The -name “Sherry,” I believe she was a stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Gigi? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But not employed there while you were there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. But not employed there while I was there. I have heard -mention of the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Wally Rack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Doctor’s Club, do you know what that was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that appear to be, Linda Kubox? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say it looks like K-u-b-o-x to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that person? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Robbins? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Iwana Birdwell? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ferris? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Skip Hutcheson? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was some, one young fellow that Jack had -staying there before I went there they referred to as Skip. I don’t -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Skip Hutcheson you believe is the fellow who sort -of performed the job you did before you came? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you came was Hutcheson there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it had been 2 or 3 months, I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It had been 2 or 3 months that had passed between the -time—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lynd Chenalt? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about W. O. Chenalt? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Brenda? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a girl named Brenda there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember of any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that Augie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow or a girl named Augie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; the name means nothing to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John, is that Rogers? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so. It don’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Bruce? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name Shirley means nothing to me, but the last name -would have been Little Lynn’s correct name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, her correct name was Bruce? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought her last name was Carlin? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Her husband’s name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Carlin? Bill Willis? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds familiar, but I can’t put any meaning to -it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he play in the band? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was one of the band players. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Gino Skaggs? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Means nothing to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dottie Walters? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Brown? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had been employed at the club. We received some letters -at the club for him. That is all I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been his employment? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he connected with AGVA? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandra Moran? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Kathy Kay. - -Mr. CRAFARD. She was one of the strippers while I was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And Andy? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That would be Andrew Armstrong, I believe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Andrea Dalk? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name means nothing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this Kathy? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lorri Womack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Margaret? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Judy Oberlin? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. George, Sherman, Tex.? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Kelley? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Eberhardt? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Russ Knight? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Russ Knight—that doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Charles Senator? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The House of Loan? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Joe, Whitehall 2-5424? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jeannie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jeanine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jeanine. - -Mr. CRAFARD. She worked when I first went to work for Jack, she worked -as a cocktail waitress and then she also was an amateur stripper. She -went to work for Jack as a stripper while I was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What name did she strip under? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was under the first name of Jeanine. She used -a French last name. She was of French descent. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ralph Paul? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph Paul. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about American Airlines, and Tuesday, October 9, No. -985? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That would mean nothing to me. George Senator is the next -one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, we have talked about George. Johnny Hayden? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Herrod? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He was the comedian, I believe. Jack employed him for a -short while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Campbell-Corrigan, building repair. Did somebody do some -building repairs for him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that. Corrigan, doesn’t mean anything to -me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Chuck Isaacs? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t read this. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Davis Kitter—something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitter something or other. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Earl Wilson? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tony Turner? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Busch? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t mean anything to me either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Cook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Hickman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Of course, she was one of the strippers who worked for -Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Kay again, but you wouldn’t know what Kay that -would be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nicki? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dolores Meridith? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiliford Jackson? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Phil Olian? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean a thing to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo, Mexico City? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing I believe he had -a stripper, pictures of a stripper, from Mexico or South America, that -he had some papers from her indicating she had been there sometime in -the past. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe he employed a stripper from Mexico? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She was either from Mexico or South America. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago had he employed this stripper? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know how long ago. I saw some pictures with her -name on it, Spanish name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Billie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Toni Rebel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about a Toni Rebel who -was a stripper or a girl who went by the name of Toni Rebel on the -stage. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Affiliated Polygraph? That is a lie detector. -Did you ever hear anything from Jack on that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I can think of there he had a sign there on -the bar that if anything come up of questionable or anything was stolen -in the club or anything all of the employees would be required to take -a polygraph test. I don’t know whether that was Affiliated or what. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hang this out where the patrons could see it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was hung on the front of the cash register. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of anybody being asked to take a -polygraph test? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo Larve? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail or Carol? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That would have evidently been Little Marge, the one -waitress. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steele? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper, she was a stripper who had worked -there at the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It means nothing to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Huntsville State Penitentiary, Huntsville. Did you ever -hear him talk about anybody? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper or was a stripper that had worked -for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He would—Segel as it is used there wouldn’t mean anything -to me. But the address he has got it, Chicago, Ill. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a Segel that Jack—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Spelled differently than that, Segal Liquor Store is where -he bought champagne and other wines. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You never knew Mickey Ryan by the name of Roy Pike? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Stewart’s Photo? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Hall, Monroe, La. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Luke of the Times Herald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. H. G. Tiger? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Vivian? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Statler Barbershop. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just it was a barbershop in the Statler Hilton. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Jack got his hair cut? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dovie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What we have done is gone through all of the pages 1 -through 9 of Exhibit 5203, and we have read off every name that -is in there. Now, I am going to hand you what has been marked -for identification as Exhibit 5204, and I have written on this, -“Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5204, April -9, 1964,” and I will sign this in pencil. Will you look at that? -It purports to be a notebook, and on the cover is simply the word -“Addresses.” It consists of 20 pages and, as I say, this is a Xerox -copy of the cover and those pages. Would you look at that and tell me -whether you have ever seen that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this to be a copy of a notebook that Jack had, -kept, in his drawer in his desk. - -(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5204 for -identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the notebook that you transferred items from your -Penway Spiral into? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the notebook which is represented by Exhibit 5203 -you believe Jack kept in his pocket? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And this notebook, which is represented by Exhibit 5204, -you believe he kept in his desk? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or he might have kept in his pocket. He kept two or -three different books in his pocket at one time, but I believe that one -was in his desk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And he also kept on his desk a much larger Penway notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t have the larger Penway notebook until—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Until after I went to work for him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was another one. The Penway notebook was about 6 -inches long, and about 4½ inches wide. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let us look at these names in here. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize a single name? Did you know Cecil -Hamlin? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the Century Distributors, Inc., are? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Century Distributors, Inc.? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what are they? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know Jack to be interested in any -prizefighters? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I knew of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a Willie Love? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack talk of Lewis McWillie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. L. J. McWillie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lawrence Meyers? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Jack’s friends from Chicago? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were at the State fair ever -meeting any other people with Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when the first time was that you met Joyce -McDonald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was at the fairgrounds. She came out with Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet her out there; did you meet any men out there -with her? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t—it seems like there was a couple of men with them, -but I was never introduced to them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record that this notebook which we -have consists of 20 pages and those 20 pages include the cover which -is marked “Addresses,” and that is page No. 1, and the remainder of the -pages are numbered consecutively through 20. I might also indicate that -on each page of this exhibit, with the exception of page 1 and page 20, -two pages are photographed open, so that would make a total of almost -40 pages of actual written addresses. I hand you, Larry, what has been -marked as “Exhibit 5205, Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, -1964,” and I have put my signature on there. This is a photograph of -a group of people, and there is an arrow pointing toward one of the -people. First of all, can you tell us if you recognize the place in -which that photograph was taken? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be the Carousel Club. - -(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205 for -identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything about it that looks like the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see the portion of the runway across here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is in the lower left-hand corner? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Lower left-hand corner of the picture, and the Carousel -was the only club in Dallas to have runways, to seat the customers on -runways. These gentlemen are sitting right on the runway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you recognize? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I see one of the waitresses back in the -background. I can’t make out which one it is on the upper right-hand -portion, standing holding a tray, but I can’t make out who it is though. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an arrow directed toward one of the individuals -in that picture. Do you ever recall seeing that individual in the club -before? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I don’t recall seeing him at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that picture of yourself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; definitely not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say definitely not? - -Mr. CRAFARD. One thing, the clothing. He is wearing a checkered shirt. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Any time I was in the club I wore a suit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You always wore a suit? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I sometimes took my dress jacket off and put on a -gold livery jacket on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever dressed in a sweater of any sort there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wear a tie while you were in the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This gentleman is wearing what would appear to be a -sport shirt, and I would say he is an older gentleman than I am. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for purposes of -identification as “Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard. April 9, 1964, -Exhibit 5206,” and I have signed my name to it. Do you recognize the -place where that photograph was taken? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on the stage of the Carousel Club looking down the -center runway. - -(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 for -identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you know? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me; that is looking down the side runway on the -left side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that picture? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The young lady on the stage with her back to us, I -believe, is the stripper known as Tammi True. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Blond hair? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is—how about the man who appears to be dressed in a -tuxedo and standing on the stage; do you recognize him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He looks like the comedian known, that I can only remember -the name as, Johnny. He worked with a couple of puppets. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the man in the checked shirt? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Only from the fact that it was his picture in the—his -photo in the previous picture that was designated with an arrow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate, true and accurate, picture of what -the inside of the Carousel looked like at the time that you worked -there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. From that angle; yes. If you like, I can explain what they -was doing when this picture was taken. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what that depicts? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It depicts the, what they call, raffling, you might say; -they give tickets out at the door, and then they spin a roulette wheel, -and the man with the numbers on the ticket that correspond with the -ticket on the roulette wheel wins the prizes. That is what they were -doing at that time; giving away prizes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they give away prizes every night? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; weekends mostly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about during the week? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not too often. Sometimes they did. It depends on the size -of the crowd. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did Jack get his prizes? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away twist boards? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He gave away twist boards, Rusty Warren records, two -bottles of champagne, Wilkinson sword-edged blades, and stuffed animals. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away all of those items every night they had a -raffle or different nights? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He would give whoever won their choice. They would have, -give away, three prizes each night, and everyone would have their -choices out of the prizes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as “C. L. -Crafard, April 1964, 5207,” and I have signed my name to it. That is a -photograph. Can you tell me where that picture was taken? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was taken in Mr. Ruby’s office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the arrangement of chair and desk and what appears to -be a couch in the foreground the arrangement that existed at the time -that you worked there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This couch here is part of a sectional that was -turned crosswise of the office, the other portion being against the -wall on the left-hand side of the picture, which is where you cannot -see it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are the people in this photograph looking in the direction -of the TV camera, I mean of the TV set? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say the woman as I am looking at the left of the -picture, Joy Dale, is looking more in the direction than the rest of -them, the TV set in the corner over this way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a TV set as you look from Jack Ruby’s position in -the photograph. It would be off at the far wall in the left-hand corner? - -Mr. CRAFARD. To the left of him; yes, it would be to his left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door shown behind Jack Ruby there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that is the door connecting his office to what was my -room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, in order to get into your room, you had to walk -through Jack’s office? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I had a door off in the hall to my room, but this was -a connecting door from his office to my room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the door that enters Jack’s office? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would be almost immediately behind the girl on the -right-hand side, who is Little Lynn. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that door sort of opened up through the middle of the -wall or at one end of the wall? - -Mr. CRAFARD. More or less to the end of the wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s mark on there, then, Little Lynn on the side that -she is on, and Jack Ruby in the middle; I am marking this on the back. -And Joy Dale. Now, the background of this picture, there appear to be -tacked up on the door a number of papers. Was that customary? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had a lot of different papers tacked, fastened to the -door there, hanging on it. He had a couple of pegs in the door he put -them on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of papers did he keep up there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly old bills and stuff like that that he just stuck up -on kind of a wire peg that he put them on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me show you what I have marked as Washington, D.C., -C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5208, and I have signed it. Was -that photograph taken at the Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Do you want me to describe it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It shows Jack Ruby standing on the stage holding the mike -talking to the audience, and they are clapping him; applauding him, I -should say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that photograph was taken? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the date, but this photograph would have -been taken at the same time we had a photographer from a magazine -taking pictures. It would have been taken by him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did Jack M.C.; appear on stage? - -Mr. CRAFARD. One or two nights. I believe one evening, one or two -evenings we was without an M.C. and Jack done the M.C.-ing. It was a -couple of evenings. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When there was ordinarily an M.C. there, do you ever -recall Jack going up on stage? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. It wasn’t his custom. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking at that picture, do you recognize anybody else in -the photograph? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at what I have marked in the same -fashion Exhibit 5209, and tell me if you recognize anybody in there? - -First of all, let me rephrase the question. Do you recognize where that -was taken? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. It wasn’t taken in the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recognize anybody in the picture? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would say this picture was taken in a place where -the theme was more or less western theme than anything else. I remember -I commented to the other gentleman when he showed me a picture, we were -looking at the costume she had on, wasn’t anything I remembered. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked in the same fashion -Exhibit 5210. Do you recognize where that photograph was taken? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph was taken in the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize who any people in those photographs are? - -Mr. CRAFARD. A stripper. I don’t remember her name right now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the left-hand side, is that the same girl? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The same girl in another one of the photographs. It looks -like Tammi True. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There are dogs in that—dachshund dogs in that photograph? - -Mr. CRAFARD. These dogs belong to Jack Ruby. We placed them on the -stage as more or less the photographer was here, as more or less a -photography stunt more than anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they regularly used in acts? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; only on this one occasion they were used more or less -like, say, for a photographic stunt. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been up on the stage while the lights were -on, while an act was in progress? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not while an act was in progress. Usually, during the -roulette wheel, I would put the prizes out and I’d take them off when -it was over. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would the stage be lighted in the same way for the drawing -of prizes as it would be when an M.C. was on stage? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would only the stage be lit or would the patrons, the -customer area, also be? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just the stage. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to look out into the audience -from the stage when the roulette wheel, when the drawing, was in -progress? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see faces in the audience? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty hard to make out any faces unless they were -sitting right next, and then you wouldn’t recognize them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless they were sitting right next to the runway of the -stage? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me a minute, please. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see a gentleman standing on the right-hand -corner of some of these photographs. This gentleman was the M.C. at -that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who he was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was Johnny. Yes; there is the box, one of his -boxes. It was Johnny, but I am not sure what his last name was. There -is a woman in one of these pictures; I believe I can just see myself, -but it is not clear enough to make out. I believe it is me standing -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This picture that you are looking at, this large -photograph, is actually a series of small photographs? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It is actually a series of small photographs. It would be -the first and second photograph in the middle series of photographs -where you can just vaguely see me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to show you what I have marked in the same -fashion Exhibit 5211. Do you recognize any of the people in that -photograph, that set of photographs? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There is Johnny on the stage, the first one in the first -series. I can see Johnny on the stage again. - -The next one shows Johnny. - -The next one shows Johnny and, I believe it is Tammi True. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the heavy man in the short-sleeved shirt that is -shown? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember his name. He was to the club on several -different occasions. He always sat in the same place because he was -such a heavy man nobody could get around him, such a big one. - -In the middle series of photographs shows Tammi True in each of them. - -And on the outside series of photographs is Little Lynn in Jack’s -office holding some stuffed animals. - -The bottom picture on the right-hand series shows Johnny with one of -his puppets. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this about the fat man in the short -sleeves. Was he a friend of Jack’s? - -Mr. CRAFARD. They knew each other. They seemed to be friendly, always -talked, Jack would always speak to him when he came in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you associate any name with this man? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember his name, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his name in any of the names that we went through in -the notebooks today? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. I wouldn’t remember his name if I saw it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else who would know him? Would Andy -Armstrong know him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Andy Armstrong would know him; yes. I believe that Andy is -the one that first told me his name and told me to always seat him in -the same place. - -There was only one chair in the club that he could sit on and we had to -go get it all the time when he come in and put it in the place for him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked in the same -fashion Exhibit 5212, which is also a series of photographs. - -Do you recognize any of the people in those pictures? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The stripper is Little Lynn. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In all of the pictures? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the patrons? Do you recognize any of the -patrons? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Only myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This doesn’t look like me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not me at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you right there? You have indicated to me that -your photograph appears in a number of these pictures. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me indicate that you are in the photograph in the -upper right-hand corner, and you are the man in a black suit who is -seated second from the left along the runway. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the picture immediately below that you occupy the -same position? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture immediately below that which is the third from -the top, on the right-hand side you occupy the same position? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the stripper is Little Lynn? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then moving into the center set of pictures you appear in -the same position third from the bottom? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the same position at the bottom? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this suit and dress that you show here, is that -the way you were normally dressed at the Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. These pictures were taken as a photographic stunt, -also. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. During the day, Larry, if you had occasion to go out of -the Carousel Club, were you also dressed in a suit? - -Mr. CRAFARD. During the day, up until about 5 o’clock, I was normally -dressed in a pair of white jeans, a long-sleeved shirt or a pair of -corduroys as I was usually working around the club and I didn’t care to -wear a suit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same -fashion Exhibit 5213. - -Now, this picture was taken inside the Carousel Club. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at these pictures and tell me looking at the -picture in the upper left-hand corner, who that is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Johnny, the M.C. on stage with his three puppets. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the photograph right below that there are two -girls. Who is the blond? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Kathy Kay and I believe Tammi True in the dressing room. -The next photograph is the same. - -The next photograph is Tammi True on stage. Going to the middle of the -first photograph is Tammi True. The middle series is all Tammi True on -stage. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the patrons in here? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; except on the top picture on the right-hand -corner shows the heavy set man we have mentioned before in the same -position as before. - -On the right-hand column it shows Kathy Kay on the top photo. - -The next three photos are all pictures of Johnny with his puppets. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that Johnny, would his name be Johnny Turner? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he the only M.C., the only man who was employed at the -time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He was the only M.C. employed at that time; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the only other employees he had at that particular -time were strippers or entertainers? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; strippers and the waitresses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So let me understand this. That while you were there, -Billy DeMar was employed there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Johnny Turner? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And anyone else? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was all. I can’t remember who the M.C. was -when I first went to work for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a different one other than the three we have -mentioned? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. That is what I was trying to remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these M.C.’s have a regular run of a prescribed number -of weeks that they would play? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; maybe they might come in for 2 or 3 weeks, or they -might be there for 1 week and then they might stay for 3 or 4 months. -It would depend on the contract that they signed with Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Heard ever come and appear? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe he was ever there while I was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit -5214 and I want to ask you if you recognize any of the patrons in those -photographs. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The heavy set gentleman that has been mentioned before is -in the second photograph in the left-hand series. He is in the first -photograph in the middle series. That is all. But other than that, I -don’t recognize any of the other patrons. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you now what has been marked as 5214-A -and all the markings are in the same fashion as the previous ones. Do -you recognize any of the patrons in there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The patron in the second and third photographs on the -right-hand side looks familiar but I can’t place him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am handing you is Exhibit 5215 which is also marked -in the same fashion as the others. Do you recognize any of the patrons -there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5216. You will notice that this appears -to be the interior of a dressing room and there is some sort of a -plaque on the wall in the top two photographs in the center and the -photograph in the lower right-hand corner. Do you recall what that -plaque is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state whether that picture was taken at the -Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recognize those as Carousel Club dressing -rooms? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes. The dressing rooms have been redecorated since I -worked there, I know that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the dressing rooms look as they appear in that -photograph at any time while you were employed at the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe that is the dressing room of the Carousel. -I don’t remember this stuff along the bottom picture, the left-hand -side of the bottom picture in the left-hand column. The plywood door -that is shown in several pictures, I don’t recognize that as being of -the dressing room at the Carousel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same -fashion as Exhibit 5217. Do you recognize the patron that is shown in -that photograph? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t, but I believe from this picture I can pretty -well state that that other last picture was photographs of the girls’ -dressing room, from the location of the table. Instead of a door that -was a window that had been boarded up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5218 which has been marked in the same -fashion. Do you recognize any of the patrons in that photograph? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Exhibit 5219 which has been marked in the same -fashion? Do you recognize any of those patrons? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Only that I believe this one has been showed in previous -pictures. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a duplicate of something we already have? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it is a duplicate, but I believe this -gentleman in the white shirt has been shown in previous pictures. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about 5220? Do you recognize any of the patrons there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Only this one gentleman here. I can make him out -especially in the bottom picture in the middle column. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With the white shirt on? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The gentleman with the short-sleeved white shirt on I can -recognize him from the previous pictures. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t have a recollection of who he is? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t have a recollection of who he is. I don’t think I -ever knew the gentleman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Exhibit 5221, do you recognize any of the patrons in -there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Only the gentleman on the right-hand would be the back -down in the picture towards the right-hand side would be the far side -of the stage the heavy set gentlemen that has been mentioned before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Officer Tippit? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know a man named Bernard Weissman? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Ruby or anybody indicate that Officer -Tippit was ever in the Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember of hearing any indication. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about that Bernard Weissman? Was he in the Carousel -Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember any indication of that, either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned a gun? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I had a pistol, but it was in Oregon when I was in Texas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a pistol was that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. A .22. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned any other sort of a gun? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in military service, did you have any -training with a rifle? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had training with the M-1 rifle and with the M-1 -carbine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in Dallas, Tex., did you ever have any -occasion to go out to any rifle ranges? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know whether Jack Ruby ever went to any rifle -ranges? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your answer is you don’t know? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I did not know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Dallas, Tex., did you attempt to -purchase an automobile? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any used car lots? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever drive Jack Ruby’s car? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive an automobile at any time while you were in -Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever accompany anybody in an automobile to have it -repaired? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe when you talked with the FBI, you indicated -that you visited a store with Jack where he was going to get some -electrical or electronic equipment. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you began to work for Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 3 or 4 weeks after I went to work for -Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talk about working for Jack, do you mean that to -include the time that you were working at the Dallas, Tex., State Fair? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As working for Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Only the time, from the time the State fair closed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of electrical equipment Jack was -purchasing, looking for when you went with him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Some speakers and—that is the boxes that are used to work -a speaker out of, the amplifier box. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he going to use these items? - -Mr. CRAFARD. In the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he had those items there before? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had the items in the Carousel Club, but he was going to -replace them with some better models. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his existing models defective in any way? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was always something going wrong with one speaker or -the other. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually replace these? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened at the electronics store that you visited? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He talked with the gentleman for a few minutes and I -believe he give them a free pass to the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do in connection with buying equipment? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had checked out some equipment they had there, their -prices, the types of equipment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What price range of equipment was he talking about? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He was wanting to get a better model amplifier as cheaply -as he could. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been an expenditure of over $100? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I really don’t know, but I don’t believe so. Could I go -back a little bit to the day. I believe that was about a week after I -went to work for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you testified yesterday I think that the girl whom you -identified in some pictures taken on the street outside the Carousel -with Jack Ruby, you identified this girl as Gloria McDonald. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could her name have been Gloria Fillmore? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Her name could have been, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure about the name McDonald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact if I may be allowed to say so, I am not -positive that this girl is the girl I knew as Gloria. Her name could -have been something entirely different. I believe it was Gloria. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it was Gloria in this picture? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not completely positive. - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I never knew her last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit. -Going back to Wednesday, November 20, 2 days before the President was -killed, and Thursday, November 21, do you remember on either of those 2 -days receiving any telephone calls from Bruce Carlin? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Bruce called the evening of Wednesday, the 20th -wanting to speak to Little Lynn. I am not positive but I believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how about on the 21st. Do you remember anything on the -21st? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything, no. He might have but I don’t -recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever remember on the 21st a telephone call being -placed to Jack Ruby in the early portion of the evening, and your -answering the phone and talking to the person on the phone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce Carlin ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby in -your recollection? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him ever doing so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Bruce Carlin’s friends? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a boy named Jerry Bunker? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce used to call the Carousel regularly? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. There was only one or two occasions when I am sure -that Bruce called the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When are the other occasions? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the evening of Wednesday the 20th Little -Lynn hadn’t went straight home from the club and he called asking, -wanting to know where she was at. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of the financial condition of Little -Lynn or Bruce Carlin the week before the President died? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn ever complain in your presence about not -having enough money? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that when she first went to work for Jack, Jack -either gave her an advance or loaned her some money, one or the other. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I recall yesterday in your talking with Mr. Hubert there -was some problem you felt that you had lost 8 hours in describing what -happened on your trip from Dallas to your destination in Michigan. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the time that has passed since then, have you been able -to find those 8 hours that were lost? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Pretty well, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think happened? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City and spent -quite a bit of time getting back. There is where I lost the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive in Oklahoma City? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 7 o’clock in the evening of the 23d. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did you happen to get mixed up on your routes? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I got a ride with this gentleman and I believe he said -something about getting me out on my route or something like that, and -I got mixed up on my route. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ride with him in the wrong direction for a while? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He took me out, he took me quite a ways more than where I -had to go. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On that basis what time would you say that you arrived in -Chicago? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It probably would put me in Chicago sometime Monday, about -10:30 or 11 o’clock in the morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago, then you knew that Ruby had -killed Oswald? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive in Lansing, Mich.? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 6:30 or 7 o’clock Monday evening. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago did you make any effort to -call any of the Rubensteins? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that occur to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; that arrival in Lansing would have been about 3:30 or -4 o’clock. It would have been a couple hours earlier. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that the ride that you had got out of Dallas -on the 23d with a man whom you had met at the Dallas State Fair. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the Dallas State Fair? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was a photography place on the fairgrounds. He -worked there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a full-time employee at the fairgrounds or was this -a temporary thing? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was just temporary for the fair. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the photography place? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of different photographers at the -fair? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two or three different ones at the -fairgrounds. This one was right close to the place I worked was located. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from a tent? Were you in a tent? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from your tent? - -Mr. CRAFARD. About 150 or 200 feet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In which direction? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been down on the main midway. It would have -been right on a corner of the main midway and the portion of the midway -I was on. We were located on a branch off the main midway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say this man was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say he was probably in at least his middle -forties, more likely in his late forties. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he bald or did he have hair? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a graying man or what color was his hair? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a car he owned? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had a Chevy. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe his physical build, anything -remarkable about it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I could think of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a thin man? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He was about medium build for a man his age and height. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say he had a young boy with him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had a son about I believe 9 or 10 years old. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you catch the son’s name? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his name? Did you learn his first name? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I more than likely knew his name but I don’t remember it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the photography studio? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure just what he did do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a Dallas studio that had a place there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there some central office of the Dallas State Fair that -would keep records of the people who had charge of tents or booths -there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the fair commission would know anyone that -had any kind of a stand or concession on the midway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would this commission have its office when the -season was not in session? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would be on the fairgrounds. I am not sure where though. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is some sort of permanent office there on the -fairgrounds? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the Dallas Fairgrounds is one of the largest -fairgrounds in Texas. It is open the year around. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your belief that this man knew you worked for Jack -Ruby as he was taking you out of Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after we had got to talking and I told him I had -been working at the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that you were with that man? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe a half hour or maybe 45 minutes at the most. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your belief that he had a cottage at some sort -of a lake? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What place? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name of the lake he lived on, that he -had his cottage on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you remember somewhat where he left you off and in -what direction he had to turn? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went to the left of 77 when he let me off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You left Dallas on route 77? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far would you say you went on route 77? - -Mr. CRAFARD. We were about 20 miles outside the city limits of Dallas -at Carrollton, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He let you off in Carrollton? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just the other side of Carrollton a little ways. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. North of Carrollton? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just north. Not very far. It couldn’t have been more than -maybe a mile. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this some sort of main intersection he let you off at? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes; the main entry for the Carrollton -traffic on the north side of town. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at route 77 and the corner of some other road? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just one of the so-called farm roads of -Texas. They have got a lot of the roads numbered farm road such and -such. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a sign up there that pointed to a lake that this -man had to turn to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any idea how large a lake it was? Was it a -resort area? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that either, sir. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you do recall that the man had a cottage or something -of that sort on the lake? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was going up to work on his cottage when he picked -me up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We talked at lunchtime about a man who called the Carousel -during the week before the President was assassinated. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you tell us about these calls? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Is that the one where I said he wouldn’t give his name or -anything? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the one I had in mind. - -Mr. CRAFARD. This gentleman would call maybe two or three times a day -asking for Jack. He would ask where he could reach Jack. It sounded -like it was pretty important that he reach Jack, and that he would -never leave a number where Jack could call him back at. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever give this man a number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time of the day or night this man would -call? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be during the day. I can’t recall any -specific time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man ever wake you up? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was always well after 9 o’clock, I know that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it ever appear to be around lunch hour? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been anywhere from 9 o’clock to 6 o’clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to call at regular times when he called? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe his voice in terms of age? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man call on Friday, November 22? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really remember whether he did or not. I don’t -believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on the morning of the 23d, Saturday the 23d? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call the day before the President was assassinated? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called sometime in the afternoon of the 21st. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong about this man? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to Jack about him and I believe -Andy was there when I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you say to Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That this guy called several times wanting to get a hold -of him, would never leave his name or address or number or anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had told me previously not to give his number to -anyone unless I knew who it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is his home number? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or some other number he left where he could be -reached at. He said not to worry about anybody that didn’t leave a -phone number, they didn’t want to get in touch with him very bad. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew who this man was who was -calling? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I took it for granted he knew who the man was. He never -said definitely that he did know who the man was. I think when I told -him about it he just said forget it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You never met this man, did you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; if I had met the man I would have known his voice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many home telephone numbers did Jack have? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He only had one home number that I knew of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have an assistant manager by the name of -Alexander? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That would have been Andrew. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish a good part of this today if we -could take a break. I want to hand you a copy of your interview with -the FBI and ask you to take time to read that over. It is rather -lengthy. It covers eight pages. Make some notes. Let me put this on -the record. Let me ask you to take your time and read this, and we -will take a recess for as long a period as you feel necessary. Make -notes as you go along of any changes that you think ought to be made, -either because you didn’t tell that to the FBI or because you now upon -reflection think that it is inaccurate, or because after reading this -and reflecting on your other testimony you would adopt this rather that -what you have said before. Let’s figure this will take at least 15 -minutes and maybe longer. - - -TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED - -The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:50 a.m., on -April 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by -Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of -the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, and Max -Phillips, Secret Service, were present. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state first for the record that this is a -continuation of the deposition that was begun on Wednesday morning, -April 8, with Mr. Crafard, and that the oath and all the formalities -that we went through on that date are still in effect. Yesterday -afternoon as Mr. Crafard and I were returning from lunch, he indicated -to me that he had received some telephone calls at the Carousel Club in -the week before President Kennedy was killed, from a man who would call -two or three, perhaps more times a day but would not leave his name but -simply ask for Jack Ruby, and in connection with that conversation Mr. -Crafard asked me if we had any recordings of Lee Oswald’s voice. Mr. -Crafard indicated that he would like to listen to the recordings with -the possibility that he might recognize the voice of somebody he had -talked to or overheard when he was in Ruby’s employ. We have located a -tape recording of an interview which was conducted with Mr. Oswald in -New Orleans shortly after he was arrested for disturbing the peace in -connection with the Fair Play for Cuba activities. The tape recording -was made by radio station WDSU, New Orleans on August 21, 1963. The -recording involves Lee Harvey Oswald, Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler, and -Bill Stuckey. The recording is provided to us by the United States -Secret Service. It bears Secret Service No. 236. - -I would also like to explain for Mr. Crafard’s benefit as well as -the rest of us that it will be very clear as you listen to this tape -recording which person on the recording is Lee Oswald. In some cases -his name may be used. In other cases the question and answer repartee -is such that it will be difficult not to realize who Oswald is if you -know anything about Oswald’s background. There also may be a certain -amount of distortion in the recording and we are not able to state for -the record at this time exactly how much distortion there is and how -this would compare favorably with what might heard over a telephone. I -would like you to keep all of this in mind in listening to this and try -to give us as accurate a recollection as you can of whether you have -ever heard this voice which will appear to be Oswald’s. - -Mr. Hubert, do you have anything you want to add? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is just another way of putting what Mr. Griffin -has said, we don’t want you to identify a voice simply because it is -suggested to you by the content of the material. If that would be the -basis of your recollection—of your recognition it would be of no value -to us, you see. On the other hand, if you do recognize the voice we -expect you to tell us. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Goldberg, do you have anything you would like to ask? - -Dr. GOLDBERG. No; I have no questions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Phillips, if you would go ahead and commence the -recording we will all listen to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, you are going to be able to tell us after we -finish playing that at what point you began and at what point you ended? - -Mr. PHILLIPS. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Might I ask the reporter if it is possible for him to take -down the first couple of sentences so we will have for the record—— - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think it will be necessary if we can get into the -record its being at such a point in feet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate to use what the footage is? - -Mr. PHILLIPS. I have the index at zero right now with the paper index -in the reel. When it is through I will be able to know how much, what -the index reads and I will have a paper index in the other roll and -that space in between is what we have played. I will identify that -section. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. May I suggest, though, Mr. Hubert that if there is -any possibility that portions of this tape might be deleted or -retranscribed onto another tape that it would probably be best if we -did have an indication of the opening words that are on here so that it -can be located? - -Mr. HUBERT. That is an extra precaution. - -(The tape recording commenced with the following): - -“What price in dollars of Cuba selling sugar to Russia, Russia sending -to Cuba 80 percent in machinery in Russia and 20 percent in dollars,” -et cetera, et cetera, et cetera—— - -(This is a Cuban or Spanish speaking voice.) - -“Could you straighten out that point, are you or have you been a -Communist?” - -“Yes; I am a Marxist. - -“What is the difference. - -“Well, the difference is primarily the difference between a country -like Ghana, Guiana, Yugoslavia, China, or Russia.” - -(End of transcription.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us now, Mr. Crafard, whether after listening -to this recording you recognize any of the voices on the recording? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, I want the record to show where you began -and where you left off and we have the double check with the opening -sentences of the excerpt and the closing sentences so that we may have -a mechanical check as well, would you state for the record precisely -how this can be identified at a later point in time. - -Mr. PHILLIPS. This section of the tape can be identified by paper index -tabs which have been inserted. Secondly, the index numerical index -reads 163 on this stereophonic concord tape recorder. The numerical -index reads 163 which means from the time the tape was played which was -on zero index, the tape distance went 163 inches. - -Mr. HUBERT. Those paper tabs are temporary, aren’t they? - -Mr. PHILLIPS. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there a possibility of marking the tape in some way -without injuring it? - -Mr. PHILLIPS. There would be. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that there would be a permanent mark as to where the -paper tabs were? - -Mr. PHILLIPS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you do that by making some sort of significant mark -with your initials? - -Mr. PHILLIPS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will ask you to do that also. - -Mr. PHILLIPS. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, did you recognize anyone of the voices in that -excerpt that we played? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard them at all? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you are certain that it is not the voice of the man who -called Ruby that you referred to yesterday? - -Mr. CRAFARD. How is that now? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday I understand that you referred to the fact that -a man had called Ruby by telephone on a sufficient number of occasions -so that you believe that you could recognize his voice if you heard it -again. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you if any of the voices that you heard in -this excerpt just run off on the machine is the voice of the man you -were talking about? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, having had a chance to listen to a number of voices -on the tape recording is there anything you can tell us about the voice -of the man who called you without leaving his name that Mr. Hubert has -been referring to. Did he have an accent? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn’t have an accent. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak with any characteristic Texan or southern -speech patterns? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; his voice sounded more like a person from the East -would talk. His words were very pronounced and very definite. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is one photograph that I neglected to show you -yesterday which I want to show you now and ask you to identify. - -I am going to mark this Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. -Crafard, Exhibit 5222. - -(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5222 for identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at that photograph and tell me if that is a -photograph of anyone you have ever seen before? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I have saw the gentleman before at the club but -I don’t believe I was ever introduced to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in what connection you saw him in the -Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a guest of Mr. Ruby’s. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you may have seen him there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 5223 -which is a photograph of a piece of paper and it bears the name T. E. -Smith, and there is some other writing under it. Do you recognize that -name on that sheet of paper? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This exhibit is marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, -C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5223 and it bears on the back the numeral one. - -(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5223 and 5224-A for -identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Washington, -D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-A and I will ask -you if you will tell us what those are a picture of. - -Mr. CRAFARD. They are pictures of a message, I would say that—there is -space for who the message is to, the date, who it is by, and when they -were there and the phone numbers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there three message slips photographed in that picture? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you ever recall seeing those around, such message -slips around, the Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing those in any connection with Mr. -Ruby? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on there. Do you recognize any of the names on -those sheets of paper? - -Mr. CRAFARD. None other than the name Ruby here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether Mr. Ruby received telephone calls -regularly at any phone other than the phone at the Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He might at his home address. I wouldn’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at what I have marked in the same fashion -as Exhibit 5224-B and tell me if you recognize any of the names that -are shown in that photograph? - -(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-B for identification.) - -Mr. CRAFARD. The middle one in the picture bears the name Pauline which -is the name of the assistant manager of the Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there was somebody who stayed -throughout the day at the Vegas Club in the same manner that you stayed -throughout the day at the Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe there was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you a series of photographs all of -which are marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964 and which I am going -to mark Exhibit 5225. Each of these 19 photographs has in the upper -right-hand corner on the reverse side of the photograph a letter in -sequence from A to S. I would like you to look at all 19 of these -photographs and tell me if you recognize the notebook which they -purport to depict. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these to be a notebook that Jack Ruby used. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you recall seeing that notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried it on his person. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday you identified two other notebooks one which you -thought he kept on his person, the other which you thought he kept in -his desk. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Having seen this is there—would you change your testimony -any way about the other two notebooks that you identified yesterday? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your testimony that Jack maintained at least -three small-sized notebooks that you recall? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had several of them, two or three of which he carried -on him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to state for the record that these photographs do -not have the normal commission number that is put on documents when -they come into the office. These photographs at this time have come to -us by a letter from the Federal Bureau of Investigation dated April 7, -and the letter indicates that this notebook was found in Jack Ruby’s -automobile. - -I will identify this notebook further as having on the front cover the -word “Alladin”. The notebook appears to be a pocket-size notebook which -might be 2 by 3 inches or 1½ by 3 inches. - -Under the word “Alladin” there is a triangle with some writing which I -am unable to read. Under the triangle, on the cover is written notebook -No. 3164. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had better identify that picture you hold in your hand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture I am referring to here is Exhibit 5225-A. -The one refers to the number that the Bureau has put on in the upper -right-hand corner on the reverse side. I am going to ask you to look at -these photographs in sequence if you will look at Exhibit 5225-B, will -you tell me whether you recognize any of the names written on there? - -(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5225-A through 5225-S for -identification.) - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline is on this page. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Milt Jaffe? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name Bonnie also appears on this, that would -be the last name on this page. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. State what you understand—you are looking through a -magnifying glass now at photograph number one, in the series of -Exhibits 5225 and there is a name on there that you believe to be -Bonnie? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as I look at it it -appears to be Barney, but assuming that it is Bonnie, that is—is that -name familiar with you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Bonnie, a girl was—a girl by the name of Bonnie worked as -a waitress at the Carousel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names on that page? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline mentioned before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Correction for the record, we are looking at photograph B -in the 5225 series. - -Would you look at photograph C in that series and tell me if you -recognize any of the names on there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph doesn’t contain any names. It has -something to do with taxes, admission tax. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Jack Ruby’s practice was while you -worked with him as to keeping track of taxes and so forth? - -Mr. CRAFARD. On this admission tax we had some numbered tickets. When -each customer came in we tore one in half, tore half of the tickets and -gave them half of the ticket and once a month they would go at it and -count the tickets. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he kept his records for those things? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know where he kept his records at. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his making entries in a small notebook for -such records? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; not on the admission tickets. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of other book that he kept his tax -records in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe his accountant kept most of the tax records but -there was something about the admission tax where him, Ruby and Andy -would work on that together and count the stubs. - -But I don’t know where he kept record of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the admission charge to the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. This was including the taxes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that $2 every night or was there a different charge on -weekends? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars every night at the Carousel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his charge for admission at the Vegas, if there -was any? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was 75 cents or 85 cents, something like -that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph D? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is another State admission tax note. July, August, -and September. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit D of Series 5225. - -I want to show you E of Exhibit 5225. There are some names written down -there. - -Do you recognize those names? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Billy Brook, I have heard his name mentioned, I believe he -was a comedian; I am not sure. - -There is Bobby Patterson. I have mentioned him as a band member for the -Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a notation under the name Bobby Patterson. Would -you read that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Right under the name? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t make it out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To the right of the name there is a 6 with two zeros, and -right under the name Bobby Patterson it says, “and friends” and on the -same line to the right of the words “and friends” and under the 600 it -says “10” with two zeros. - -Do you recognize—does that mean anything to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that handwriting that is shown there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, but I believe it is in Mr. Ruby’s -handwriting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the way Mr. Ruby made notations about money? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This is his method of making notations with the 10 large -and two zeros small on the upper portion of the line. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that writing which makes you -think that is Jack Ruby’s writing? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that it is fairly small. And there is the name -Armstrong, the next name that I recognize, Andrew Armstrong. That is -all there is on that page. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph F and tell us if you -recognize anything on that photograph. This is of Exhibit 5225. - -Mr. CRAFARD. What I recognize is really small writing down almost to -the bottom of the page, there are three lines right close together. The -names and phone numbers, the name Ruth Shay, I have heard the name, I -can’t recall exactly what her relation was, and the name Pauline again -and then Tex De Lacy, I believe I had his name and phone number wrote -down in my notebook. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph G and tell us if you -recognize any of the names there or any of the notations that are on -there. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that it is apparently for excise tax -purposes for the Carousel Club, that is all I can say about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph H. Do you recognize any of -the names or notations on that photograph? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This shows two pages and one page is excise tax for -Carousel Club. The other page has very little writing on it. - -The name Joseph Rossi. I have heard Jack use the name Rossi quite a few -times, but I don’t know what it was about. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Joseph R-o-s-s-i? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph I in this series that we -have been looking at and tell me if you recognize any of the names and -notations there. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The name Tom Palmer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You already testified about him. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I already testified about Palmer and the other page has -the words revenue from the Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph J and tell us if you -recognize any of the names and notations there. - -Mr. CRAFARD. There is one name on here, I believe I heard Jack mention, -but I am not sure. This Rocky Robinson, I am not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection as to the context or -connection that you may have heard that name used? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he introduced me to a man named Rocky, but I -can’t recall the last name of the gentleman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph K and would you tell us if -you recognize any of the names and notations there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. None except for the insignia of KLIF Station. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the Serv-U Pharmacy as being a business -in Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph L and tell us if you -recognize any of the names and notations there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This is a repetition. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a duplicate photograph of the same picture that we -showed? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As 5225-K. - -Would you look at M in this series of photographs and tell us if you -recognize any of the names and notations? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There is the name Jeanine, Tammi, Lynn that I recognize, -Brother Bear. - -The name Norma, I believe is the same phone number as I give for Miss -Norma Bennett, or Barnett. - -I believe there is a Bob Litchfield, I believe that is the last name on -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all names that you testified about previously? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I am not sure about that Litchfield. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Bertha Cheek that appears on -there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at N in this series of photographs and tell -us if you recognize any of the names and notations there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph O in the series and address -yourself to the same questions? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any that is on here. There appears to be -the word “taxes”. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at P and tell us if you recognize any of the -names and notations there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There is the words Morning News, Carousel rent and -something about the laminating company. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do those—can you tell whose handwriting those notations -are in? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they are in Jack’s handwriting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack Ruby’s practice to make notes for himself of -things he had to do any particular day? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure whether he did or not. On one or two -occasions I have saw him make notes of things he wanted to do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at Exhibit Q and tell us if you recognize -any of the names or notations there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mike Shore. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified about him previously. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -There is Ed Pullman’s name on there. I have testified about him -previously. - -And Joe Williams, I believe from the band at the Carousel Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention back again to photograph -P in this series, Exhibit 5225. There is a notation on here “baby -bottle.” Do you have any idea what Jack Ruby would have had to do with -any baby bottles? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, whatsoever. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On Exhibit Q in this series, 5225, there is a notation -“Goodwill Industries”. Did Jack—do you remember having anything to do -with Goodwill Industries? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Except the fact that most of my clothes were bought there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The name Dalton appears in connection with that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spoke with Mr. Dalton in connection with -trying to get the Goodwill Industries interested in the twist boards, -their manufacture, I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation after the word “Mike Shore” -appears to be the word “blades”. Did Mike Shore have anything to do -with the Wilkinson blades that Jack gave away? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation on here that appears to read -“Stubbe Machine”, some sort of machine that looks like Stubby. - -Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I could say with that it might be in -connection with the laminating machine that he was thinking about -getting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell us about the laminating machine that he -was thinking about getting. - -Mr. CRAFARD. These free passes he was giving out he was having them -laminated in plastic and he was thinking about getting a machine to do -it himself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he intending to purchase this machine? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. These were free passes to the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the practice of giving passes away to the Carousel -exist all the time you worked for Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He started that practice just after I went to work -for him, giving them to people that he had business with, personal -acquaintances, and different important businessmen from different areas -of the country. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong or Jack so that you -would be able to state whether he had given away passes prior to that -time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. To my—as far as I know, he had never given them away -before this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Monte that appears on this -photograph Q in the 5225 series? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a fellow by the name of Monte -Timmons? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met the man. I don’t remember the -name. - -Excuse me 1 minute. - -I believe that is a woman’s name. There was a woman by the name of -Monte, had a phone call, had Ryan call her back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Ryan? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to show you photograph R and ask you if you -recognize any of the names or notations there. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Bill Petty’s name is on there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a friend of Jack’s. I met him at the -Carousel Club. Jack introduced me to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he live in Dallas? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he did? How often did you meet him at the -Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there two or three times while I was -working for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come during business hours or would he come in -the afternoon, or morning, when there weren’t patrons there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe when I first met him was in the afternoon, but -other than that it was during business hours. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the nature of Jack’s connection with -Petty was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -There is the name Gladys. I spoke of her before. - -And this Dr. Uhleviteh was Mrs. Grant’s doctor. - -The name Oscar Newman seems familiar, but I don’t recollect what there -was about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There appears to be an abbreviation for Mrs. written above -Oscar Newman, does that mean anything to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you photograph S in this series we have been -looking at. Do you recognize any of the names there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Little Lynn’s name is on there. - -There is the name Gloria with the last name of R-e-t-t-i-g, the last -name doesn’t mean anything to me. The first name was the same as we -have mentioned before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Vicky Williams a name that you recognize? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday I gave you a copy of the FBI report of its -interview with you. Did you have a chance to look that over? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As a result of having read that interview, are there any -changes or corrections that you desire to make in that interview? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly were minor changes. One was the spelling of my -wife’s maiden name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How should that be spelled? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It should be spelled with a “P” instead of an “O” there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take my pen and correct that and then initial it -and date it where it appears in the interview? - -I am going to mark this exhibit, “Washington, D. C., April 10, 1964. -C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5226,” and I am going to sign my name to the -bottom of the first page. - -(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5226, for identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I have made this notation on the first page of what -purports to be an FBI report of an interview with Mr. Crafard, the -interview having been conducted on November 28, 1963, at Bellaire, -Mich., by Special Agent Theodore S. Kramer, K-r-a-m-e-r, dictated -November 29, 1963. - -There are eight pages to this report and at the bottom of each page -there is a number beginning in sequence with the number 147 and -continuing through the number 154 on the last page. - -I am going to put my own initials on pages 148 through 154. - -You have made your first correction of the name of your wife? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first page of this Exhibit 5226? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, are there any other changes? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the date of our wedding instead of the 16th of June -was the 22d of June. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are correcting that in the same fashion that you made -of the other correction? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The fact he stated here almost every hour Ruby was -asking about calls. Called between one and three times a day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s make a correction on there, then, if this is -agreeable to you the sentence reads, “other than that Ruby would -telephone I call, I contact him almost every hour for any calls.” - -After the word “contact him” why don’t you cross out the remainder of -the sentence and then make a correction in your handwriting. - -Mr. CRAFARD. “almost every hour.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are crossing out “almost every hour” and you are going -to write something in there. - -He has written on here “one or two times” but he spelled day “b-a-y” -and he has put his initials CLC with the date 4-10-64. He has crossed -out the words “almost every hour.” - -Are there any other additions or corrections? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a couple of small minor changes in -there. This about Ruby kept the revolver when he had money. There was -only one occasion when he would take the revolver from the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Well, we will have to change that, then. - -Mr. CRAFARD. With this, I can go back and name the one MC I have -mentioned and I couldn’t think of his name, Bill Norman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have referred to this sentence: “He -said that when transporting money Ruby kept his money in the trunk with -the revolver and always kept the revolver with him when moving money.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to cross out everything after the phrase -“with the revolver”? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you want to add anything, state something to the -effect that, as you have just told me that on one occasion you recall -him having the revolver with him. - -Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion I know of him having the revolver with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the correction you have made on the paper. - -Let me ask you a few questions here, Larry. - -Is the one occasion that you are referring to the time when he asked -you to go down and get the revolver for him, or are you talking about -another occasion? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There was one other occasion when he brought the revolver -into the club and it stayed there all evening, when he stayed in the -club, and when he left he took the revolver with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about a week and a half before the -assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that episode? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to remember as much as I can about it, and I -remember taking the revolver to him helped me remember the fact that he -had it on one occasion with him in the club before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that he did or said which gave you any -indication of why he had the revolver with him in the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe he had money in the same sack with the -revolver, and he just brought it in all together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe in the club at that time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; but he didn’t use it very often. I believe he had it. -I believe he had it at that time; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified before that it was Jack’s practice either at -the end of every business day or the next day to pick the money up and -take it away from the club. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many occasions would you say you were present when -Jack, when you saw Jack take money away from the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say almost every time that he took money from the -club I was present. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And on any of these occasions other than the one you have -just described, do you recall his having a gun on his person? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him take the money and actually put it in -his car? - -Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he put the money in his car? - -Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position where you could observe him put the -money into the trunk? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe him take anything out of the trunk on -those occasions? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position so you could have seen him if he -took a gun out of the trunk and carried it with him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was usually right beside him placing something in -the car, myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then on these occasions accompany Jack any place? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Once or twice, but usually just put stuff in the car for -him and went back upstairs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you would leave Jack on any of these occasions, -did he have other people with him, who drove off with him? - -Mr. CRAFARD. One or two times; yes. A couple of times he had Mr. Ralph -Paul with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many occasions would you say you went down with -him to the car when he carried money down, put the money in the trunk, -and Jack drove off then alone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say most of the time when I went down with him he -drove off alone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us what your best estimate is of the number -of times this would have been when he drove off alone? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say about eight or nine times that I am definite. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a day did you have occasion to go into the -trunk of Jack’s automobile? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe it would be 2 or 3 days I wouldn’t go near his -automobile, and there might be a day when I would go get something out -of the trunk of his car two or three different times during the day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On occasions when you went down to the trunk of his car -was Jack carrying money around in the trunk of his car? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He most always had money in the trunk of his car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know this? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He had told me so on several occasions, and on several -occasions I was with him when he placed money in his car when I went -upstairs and then he would send me down after something out of the -trunk of his car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether, after Jack would carry the -daily receipts down to the car if he would continue to carry money in -his car, in the trunk of his car, or whether he would take the money -out so that the next day when he would come back and pick up the next -day’s receipts the trunk was empty so far as money was concerned? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He carried the money for the receipts for a week at a time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On these occasions when he carried the money for a week at -a time, do you ever recall him going into the trunk and putting the gun -in his pocket as he was driving off? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. Only one time that I can recall a gun being in the -car, I was in the car with Jack, I believe it was the second night I -was at the Vegas Club, he brought the money sack in and the money sack -that the gun was in, was in the main money sack, and we put it in the -front seat of the car between us, right by my side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack’s practice to keep a key to the trunk of the -car any place in the automobile? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Other than on his key ring, I wouldn’t know of any keys. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many occasions did you have to go down to Jack’s -automobile by yourself and open the trunk of the car? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I would say between 15 or 20 or 25 times while I was -with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And on each of these occasions did you have to get a key -to open the trunk? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would give me the key, he would give me his key ring -with the key on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there ever any occasions when Jack left the trunk -unlocked that you recall? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. The trunk on his car was the type that you have got to -unlock it to open it, and when you close it it automatically locks, and -you remove the key and it automatically locks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a regular parking space for his car near the -Carousel Club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in the parking garage right downstairs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen where he parked his car at his home? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the parking lot. I don’t know whether he used the -same space all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it an open parking lot? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack had any sort of a safe in this -apartment? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, you don’t know. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask -along this line? - -Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about the trunk and the money and all -that. Did you get into the record about where the gun was? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe we did, but why don’t you ask the questions? - -Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t clear to me, perhaps I didn’t catch it, as to -whether or not Jack kept the gun in the trunk of the car or on his -person. - -Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk of the car, he kept it in a money sack in the -trunk of the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe your testimony was that, so that Mr. Hubert -can be brought up to date, that you only ever saw him carry the gun -on his person on two occasions, one of those occasions being when you -brought the gun up to him at the club in connection with some sort of -an argument that he had, and the other one was when he brought it in a -money bag on one occasion. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that your testimony a few moments ago concerning the -money and how you saw him put money in there, sometimes you carried -it down, or at least saw it there, is that when there was money there -there was a gun with the money, usually in a sack with the money? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The money was usually in a different, separate sack from -the gun, but at times he would take the sacks, on these two occasions -that I know of, he took the sack the money was in, the sack the gun was -in and put them all in a larger sack. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him to own a holster? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. To hold a gun? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that he did have the gun on his -person, how did he have it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was inside of a money sack, and he carried it in his -hands, the money sack wrapped around the gun and laying in his hand. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the two occasions that you say he had it on his -person? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put it in his pocket or his waistbelt? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard from Jack or Andy Armstrong or anybody -else that Jack had ever been robbed or burglarized? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on with your copy of the FBI interview report, -are there any other corrections or additions or changes that you would -make? - -Mr. CRAFARD. One addition I would like to make to my testimony of the -fact that when Ruby first came to the club on the day that President -Kennedy was killed, and before he left he called the paper and placed -an ad to the effect that we would be closed, from the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are reading this out of what is page 150? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your interview report? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to read this interview report, and -does this refresh your recollection? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. After reading it yesterday evening, and thinking -about the whole thing yesterday, last night at the hotel, I have -refreshed my memory to some extent. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After having refreshed your recollection with this report, -are you able to state how soon after Ruby came into the club he told -Andy Armstrong to notify the personnel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn’t more than about a half hour or 45 minutes after -he came into the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t do it right away? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You people sat around for awhile? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss as you were sitting there the question of -closing the club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how Jack came to give these instructions -to Andy? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after Andy began to call the personnel do you -remember Jack calling the newspapers and changing the ad? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just shortly after Andy started calling -personnel and Jack went in and used the pay phone and said something -about calling the paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall if up to that time Jack had received a -telephone call from any newspaper person asking him if his clubs were -going to be open? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other additions or changes or corrections -that you would make in this interview report in your testimony as a -result of having read the interview report? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yesterday I was talking about the financial -setup of the club. I believe I said it was fairly good. I would say -that this portion of my statement here referring to the financial setup -was gained from the fact that Jack was always complaining about going -broke, and a portion in my testimony the other day about the financial -position of the club was my own opinion. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to page 150 of the interview report? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And as I understand what you are saying in here was that -when you told the FBI that the club couldn’t financially stand to be -closed, you were making that statement on the basis of what Jack had -said? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But your own personal opinion was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That the club was making enough money to hold its own, -even on a closure of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 days. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to make a change on page 150 so that—well, -maybe we shouldn’t make this change. There is no question in your mind -but that the FBI interview states, is an accurate reporting of what you -said at that time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there is no question. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, passing on to page 151, is there anything there that -you would change? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The fact here that Ruby said he was going to his sister -at that time. I don’t believe he at that time mentioned where he was -going. When he returned later in the evening he mentioned where he was -going. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the language at the top of page 151 -which says, “Ruby said that he was going to his sister’s home and asked -Crafard if he desired to accompany him, which offer was refused”? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there was a time element setup there where -they haven’t included in this testimony here of the fact that the early -portion of this was about the financial setup, about calling the paper -was at one time, and when he said something about going to his sister -was later in the afternoon. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on page 151, are there any other additions or -corrections or changes you would make? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The second paragraph on page 151, the second complete -paragraph where it starts, “Ruby then came back to the club or called -Crafard about 7:30 p.m., that evening.” I would like to strike out or -called about 7:30 p.m., in the evening. The fact he had come back to -the club is something I have established yesterday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But you did at that time you talked to the FBI, -you weren’t sure whether he came back or called? - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the time—7:30 p.m., as you think back about -that now? - -Mr. CRAFARD. At the time—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. I believe it was a supposed time, -approximate time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But is that your best recollection of the time, or would -you now alter your estimate of what time it was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I said yesterday it was about 6 or 6:30 -when he came back to the club, I am not sure. I would say between 6:30 -and 7:30 would be about the best estimate I might give on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you make that estimate? - -Mr. CRAFARD. If I remember right, 8 o’clock I was sitting in the -drugstore eating lunch, approximately 8 o’clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you recall being at the drugstore at 8 o’clock? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The one girl that works over there goes off at 8 o’clock -and she left while I was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, actually, you got to the drugstore some time before 8 -o’clock? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And by that time Jack Ruby had already returned to the -club and asked you to accompany him to Eva Grant’s? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you at that time anything about going -to the synagogue? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember. On the third paragraph on -page 151, I believe yesterday I gave an earlier time for this same -event of Jack calling me at the club on the morning of November 23. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the language you are referring to is on Saturday -morning, November 23, at about 5:30 a.m., Ruby called him and told him -to meet him downstairs with the Polaroid camera and some film. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe yesterday that the time I gave was about 2 -hours earlier than this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best recollection now as to the time? Was -your memory more accurate at the time you told the FBI about this -episode or is it more accurate now after having spent 2 days discussing -the matter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in the trial in Texas it came out pretty well to -where it just about had to be between 4:30 and 5 when he called. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you arrive at that conclusion? - -Mr. CRAFARD. At the trial, there was quite a bit of questioning on this -effect. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the -previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it -must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o’clock that he called me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to -get. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s disregard what other people have told you to suggest -what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I -recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on -the telephone. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently -started to doze off, to go to sleep. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the other time, the time element I used -yesterday would be more of a correct time than this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us just your recollection right now today. - -Mr. CRAFARD. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30. - -In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. “When he -got to the car, George, Ruby’s roommate, was also there and they drove -out on the Stemmons Freeway.” I believe in this testimony here the -Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else. -I would like to clearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the -Central Expressway. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway. - -Referring to page 152 of this testimony, and back to previous -testimony, I have made here concerning the mention of the name of Lee -Harvey Oswald, I believe that this would be about the first time that -we used the name of Oswald, was used very much among us. Previous to -this, I don’t believe there was any reference made to this person by -name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Starting on page 151? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With the sentence, “He also recalled that while being at -the waffle shop on Commerce Street, Ruby was reading about Lee Harvey -Oswald in a newspaper.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time would you say you spent at the waffle shop? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe a half hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time it was when you were at the waffle -shop? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Right around six in the morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend at the Earl Warren sign -photographing that sign? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not more than 20 minutes at the most. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You think it might have been as long as 20 minutes? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend some time in the car talking about the sign -before you got out to photograph it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we got out of the car immediately when we -pulled over. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take you 15 or 20 minutes to photograph the sign? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it take so long? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Trying to get the right angle on the sign where I could -get the clearest picture of the words of the sign. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to walk across the street to photograph the -sign? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby get out of the car with you at the time? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; all three of us, Ruby, Senator and myself got out of -the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Going over onto page 152, are there any additions or -corrections which you would make? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that. I -have made some notes myself. - -On the bottom of page 148 of the FBI interview, which is Exhibit 5226, -the FBI reports this language, “However, Andy Armstrong or Alexander, -the assistant manager and bartender would handle the money until -midnight.” - -Did you ever know Andy Armstrong by the name of Alexander? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t recall exactly what his last name was. At -that time I believe my recollection was that it was either Armstrong or -Alexander but I wasn’t positive just exactly what his last name was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In this interview as reported on page 147 of Exhibit 5226, -you state that “After completing this job Ruby asked him to stay at the -club and work for room and board.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the room in front of Ruby’s office? This would be -approximately November 1, 1963? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you have testified previously here that you -thought you worked for Ruby for 6 weeks to 2 months. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But, of course, if you went to work for him on November -1 you would have only worked for him about 3 weeks. Now, which is the -more accurate recollection? - -Mr. CRAFARD. My dates are mixed up on that. I am not positive of the -date of the Dallas, Texas State Fair. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work at the State Fair until the State Fair closed? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought I understood your testimony on Wednesday to be -that the second show that you worked for there, the one with the band—— - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Closed a few days before the State Fair actually closed. - -Mr. CRAFARD. It closed the day before the State Fair actually closed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to work at the State Fair? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the State Fair. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the way to accurately date when you began to work -for Ruby would be in terms of when the State Fair closed? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would be starting the day after the Dallas, Tex., State -Fair closed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the State Fair last? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Two weeks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the show, How Hollywood Makes Movies lasted about -1 week? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Right at that; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the band show lasted about another week? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 149, the FBI reports you as indicating, and I am -quoting, “He said that one night approximately November 14 or 15, 1963, -Ruby was having trouble with an MC Earl Norman at the Carousel and -about 1:30 a.m., he, Ruby, sent Crafard out to the car to get the gun.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in testimony yesterday I stated that I couldn’t -remember exactly who he had the trouble with, and I am right now not -clear after thinking all night, I am not clear in my mind as to the -fact that it was Earl Norman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your memory accurate at the time you talked with the -FBI? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure, though, that the reason Ruby went to get the -gun was because he was having trouble with the M.C.? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is what I say. I am not positive of the fact who -it was he was having trouble with. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that Ruby went to get the gun because he was -having trouble with somebody? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had had some trouble with somebody and he had sent -me to get the gun. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You stated that the gun was believed to be the property of -Howard? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Negro employee, and I am reading that from page 149. -Is it still your understanding that that gun was Howard’s gun? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Shortly after I went to work for Jack he told me or Howard told me that -when he first went to work for Jack he had three or four different -guns and he had permits for his pistols, and on a couple of occasions -the law forces confiscated his pistols and later returned them, and he -was afraid this might happen again and he wouldn’t get this particular -pistol back so Jack asked him if he could borrow the gun and he told -Jack yes; he could use the gun as long as he wanted. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever say anything to you which indicated that the -gun was not Jack Ruby’s gun? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Howard about the gun that Jack Ruby had at -any time after you went down to the car on the 14th or 15th of November -to bring the gun up to Jack? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk specifically with Howard about the gun -that Jack was carrying around in the trunk of his car? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this was the gun our conversation was about. He said -that gun had belonged, it was his gun, that he had loaned it to Mr. -Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a .38 caliber revolver this -was? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Colt. Other than that I couldn’t say. -It was a snubnosed revolver, Colt snubnosed is all I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything distinguishing about the handle? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t describe anything distinguishable about the -handle, but I believe I could recognize the revolver if I was to see -it. Excuse me, that handle was an, I believe an imitation bone handle -on that pistol. I believe it was kind of a grayish-white imitation bone -handle with dark brown spots on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified that you believe Little Lynn called sometime -on Friday evening, November 22? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would be your recollection that telephone call -was received, was it before or after you had dinner at 8 o’clock over -at the drug store? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was before I had dinner. I believe I said -something to Jack about it when he came back and he said if she called -again to give, tell her to call Miss Grant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she call back? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. And I told her to call Miss Grant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 151 of Exhibit 5226 you are reported as saying in -connection with the photograph of the Earl Warren sign and the post -office box and I am quoting from the FBI report, “Crafard said he was -completely puzzled as Earl Warren was unknown to him.” - -I believe you testified earlier here in Washington that you recall Ruby -making some connection between an advertisement that he had seen in the -newspaper and the Earl Warren sign. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember that connection at the time you talked -with the FBI? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the numbers on -the address having something to do with something else that Ruby had -talked about. I don’t believe I would have anything to do with this -advertisement. I don’t believe anything on that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that—are you clear that Ruby, now, that -Ruby did make some connection between the advertisement and the sign? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very clear. It was in connection with the addresses -on the sign and this post office box number on this ad that he had saw -in the paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you making this statement as a result of something -that you personally recall or is this something that is now in your -mind because of conversations you may have had with other people? - -Mr. CRAFARD. This is something that I personally, clearly recall him -making the statement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it—Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to -ask along that line? - -On page 153 of Exhibit 5226 the FBI reports and I quote, “He knows of -no police contacts on Ruby’s behalf but said Ruby did keep a police -card in the cash register at the Carousel with a name unknown to him on -it.” - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this police card? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It was a white card with the emblem of a badge on it -with some numbers on top of it, numbers on the badge. I can’t recall -what they were, if they were even clear. I believe it to have been in -connection with some sort of a police club or something of that sort, -either that or it was a detective’s card that he might have one of the -business cards, something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a card about the size of a business card? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you tell what police department this person was -from? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex., Police Department. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been the Dallas County Sheriff’s office? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. It was from the Dallas, one -of the Dallas police departments. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did it have the name that was written on this card -or printed on the card, did it have a rank in connection with it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been a card from a justice of the peace? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t believe so. I never saw a justice of a peace -card with an emblem of a shield on it. They usually have the emblem of -the Justice Department. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Bill Willis as being a close friend of Jack. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis the leader of the band that played at the -Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive but I believe he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis, Ruby’s closest friend, in the band? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to that conclusion? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that they would talk together quite often, -if something come up in connection with the band it was always Bill -he talked to. Bill seemed to talk to Ruby more than any of the other -member of the band, and Ruby when he talked to anybody in the band it -would be to Bill Willis more than anyone else. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to depart from this exhibit for a bit. You -worked for the Tear Plating Company? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not clear whether that was in Texas or Oregon. - -Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Ablon Poultry? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a detective by the name of Joe Cody? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that Jack had me call him on one occasion where -he wanted to talk to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that you worked at the Dallas State Fair for -Bob Craven and Deke Miles. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about those men that would have led you -to believe that they were homosexuals? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working for Jack did you know that he was -getting any skin or scalp treatments of any sort? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know anything about any trichology treatments he -was getting? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack express, ever express any concern about his -baldness? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t a subject that he joked about or that other -people kidded him about? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall while you were working for Jack, Jack’s -making any inquiry concerning a business partner? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was trying to get somebody to go in with him to -open another club in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say about that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. He called two or three different people and talked to them -trying to get them to go in with him on this club. He made something, -a statement to the effect that he had a building already, that it -wouldn’t take much to get it into shape, something about they could -make the best club in Dallas, make it into the best club in Dallas, I -believe specialized clientele, you might say a closed club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this going to be a striptease club? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the people that Jack talked with -about that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack trying to interest these people in doing? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Backing him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He was looking for money? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any friends that Jack had at a -bar called Ed’s Bar? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with Ed’s Bar? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Dallas Cabana, do you know anything about -any friends or acquaintances down there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he knew the gentleman who runs the Cabana Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man ever at the Carousel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. He may have been but I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often Jack visited the Cabana? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often he visited the Baker Hotel -or the Adolphus Hotel? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet or hear Jack talk about or hear anybody -else talk about a girl named Connie Tramel or Trammell? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before that you don’t recall Jack -saying anything about, saying anything after the President was killed -about the dogs he was going to send to California? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack visited the Ritz Delicatessen? - -Mr. CRAFARD. The what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Ritz, R-i-t-z, Delicatessen? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he ate meals there occasionally, although I am -not positive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack discuss any travels he had taken? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss having been to Cuba? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss anything about taking a -Caribbean cruise? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Plans for taking a Caribbean cruise? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss Barney Ross? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross’ name familiar to you? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Exhibit 5227” -and I would like you to look at that and tell me if you recognize that. - -(Letter marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5227 for identification.) - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it is a letter I wrote. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to tell without having read that letter when -it was you wrote it? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Not the exact date. It was while I was working for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall how long it was before you left Dallas -before you wrote that letter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about a week before I left Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why you didn’t mail that letter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read that letter through and tell us if that is -the actual letter that you wrote? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is the letter I wrote. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like that letter back? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you mind if we made a photocopy? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t mind it if you want it but that—but just give -me a moment. I believe the reason I didn’t mail this letter because I -had remembered—because I had rewrote the letter just about exactly as -it is here, but in a neater hand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you actually did mail that letter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left Dallas did you mail that letter? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been about a week. About the same time I -wrote it. I am not sure of it, I am not definite of that. But I believe -that is the reason, I have done so on several occasions, wrote a letter -and then rewrote it so it would be neater. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize the letter is a personal letter. However, I -think it reflects some things about your state of mind while you were -in Dallas and your relationship to Jack Ruby that we would like to have -for the record and maybe we can handle this by my giving you a copy of -that letter. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Have you got a copy? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have a photocopy of it but I have—it has -been written up in an FBI report and simply ask you if that is an -accurate—the FBI report is an accurate rendition of the letter and then -we can refer to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, I understand you have asked us to return to -you the original of the letter written by you to “Dear Gale” covering -the front and back of a page, which has a letterhead on it “Jack Ruby -Associates, Dallas, Texas” and which has been identified in this -deposition as Exhibit 5227. Normally when a witness produces a document -before the Commission we make a photostatic copy, keep the copy and -then give the witness his document back. However, this document did not -come into our possession in that way, you see. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. We got this document from the FBI. Therefore, we do not -have authority to give it back to you. I will be glad to have a copy -made for you if you would like to do that. - -Mr. CRAFARD. That is all right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you like a copy? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; there is no need to go to that trouble. It is just I -had no idea I had left that particular letter. I know I didn’t do it on -purpose. It was accidental, but I left it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, I want to hand you what has been marked for -identification as “Exhibits 5228-A” and “5228-B”. Now, do you recognize -those as photographs of anything? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of my DD-214, my Army -discharge, the front and back sides. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those, that DD-214, is the paper that you turned over -to us on Wednesday? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those true and accurate copies of the DD-214 that you -gave to us? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to return to you your copy of the -DD-214, and thank you for producing that. I am also going to hand you -two photographs which I will mark in the following manner—hand you -one photograph—I am going to hand you two photographs which I may -have marked “Washington D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits -5229-A and B,” and I will ask you to look at those and tell us if you -recognize those as photographs of anything which you have seen before. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; they are exhibits of the front side and reverse side -of the subpena that I was handed for the Jack Ruby murder trial in -Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You brought this subpena to us and turned it -over to us on Wednesday, is that right? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return you, then, the subpena which you -gave us on Wednesday, and thank you for bringing that in. Did you also -produce on Wednesday a diary? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a series of 10 photographs which -are marked, “Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits -5230,” and they are numbered on the face of the photograph in a -sequence starting with “A” which contains a picture of the front cover -of a notebook which says, “USS” with a circle around the USS, and then -in quotation marks “oil well” and then down on the bottom right-hand -corner of this front cover which is photographed the number 1964. That -photograph has the letter “A” on the front of it. After that, there -are a series of photographs numbered in sequence 1 through 10 making a -total of 11 photographs altogether. Now, I would like you to look at -these photographs and tell us if that is a, if those photographs are -photographs of anything that you have ever seen before. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of a pocket diary that is put -out by United States Steel for the oil well corporation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who maintained that diary? - -Mr. CRAFARD. I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that, are those photographs of the diary which you -turned over to us on Wednesday? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go through those photographs and tell us if -everything that you have written in that diary up to date has been -photographed in those pictures? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; everything I have wrote in that book is here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the Nos. 1 through 10 follow in sequence with the -pages, the sequence of the pages that contain writing in your notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention to photograph No. 1. -There is a notation at the top of that photograph. Would you read that -notation? - -Mr. CRAFARD. “No. 844,” the letters HEB 12, 13 and underneath, 844 is -the Nos. 12 with a dash 23. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put that notation in the notebook? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you put that on there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I got the notebook in Michigan. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that notation, what does that refer to? - -Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to the Bible. It is referring to the Book of -Hebrews, page 844 the 12th Chapter, and 23d verse. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you write that in there? - -Mr. CRAFARD. There is something in the Bible that refers to the church -to which I belong. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What church is that? - -Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly Church of the First Born. That is the -only place in the Bible where the name can be found. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask -about the notebook? - -Mr. HUBERT. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return the notebook to you at this time, -and I want to thank you for bringing those documents to us. I want -to ask you one final question. Is there anything which has come to -your attention in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald or the -assassination of President Kennedy that you haven’t told us about that -you think would be of value to the Commission? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you after we conclude this deposition if -anything does come to your attention which might be of value to the -Commission if you would contact us and bring it to our attention. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I will do so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. There have been several conversations between us which -might be called interviews in the sense we were talking about the -matter at hand during lunch and so forth, is that correct? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that anything we conversed about at lunch -or any interviews, has not been subsequently made a part of this -deposition? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any other member of the Commission -staff than Mr. Griffin and myself? - -Mr. CRAFARD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you feel that considering your testimony and various -exhibits that you have identified that we have all you know about the -matter that the Commission is investigating? - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is, the death of President Kennedy, and the -subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ruby’s connection -therewith. - -Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and spending these 3 -days with us, and I believe that concludes the deposition. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILBYRN WALDON (ROBERT) LITCHFIELD II - -The testimony of Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II was taken at -1:35 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 -Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. -Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This will be the deposition of Mr. Wilbyrn Litchfield, II—— - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I sign, I sign “W. W. (Bob) II”,—does that need to -be in there? - -Mr. HUBERT. You can bring that out later when I ask you more about your -name. - -Mr. Litchfield, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy, under the provisions of Executive -Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress -No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in -conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, and I -have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mr. Litchfield, the nature of the inquiry -today is to determine what facts you know or may know about the death -of Oswald, or any other facts you may know about the general inquiry, -or, about the possible connection, if any, of Jack Ruby with the death -of Oswald or the death of President Kennedy. - -I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter—written request -made to you? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t receive a letter to come? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Sorrels called me long distance. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I must advise you then that under the rules -established by the Warren Commission, to govern the procedure of -handling witnesses and so forth, every witness is entitled to a 3-day -written notice that we wish to take his deposition, but those rules -also provide that if a witness wishes to, he may waive that 3-day -notice and just go ahead and testify now. So, I ask you now whether you -are willing to waive the 3-day notice and proceed to testify now? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are commonly known among your friends as Bobby? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Bob. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand also that there are some of your legal -documents that you always sign that way too? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I sign it “W. W. (Robert) Litchfield, II.” - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thirty. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now where do you reside? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. 654 West Cross Timbers, Houston, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Professional bowler and bowling instructor and I sell -trophies for a bowling supply and bowling equipment office—balls, bags, -shoes—etc. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since January of this year—approximately the middle of -January. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. From July 1963, until January of 1964, I did not work. -In July 1963, from March 1, 1962, until July 1963, I sold books and -worked myself up to a regional manager’s position. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of what company? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was with the Spencer International Press from March -of 1962 until May of 1963 working in Dallas-Fort Worth—made district -manager in San Jose, Calif., made regional manager February 1963, in -Atlanta, Ga., and stayed until May of 1963, and my father’s death -brought me back to Dallas. I left Spencer and went to work for Great -Books of the Western World in June, made district manager in 2 weeks, -and was terminated in July due to my past record. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “past record”? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have a criminal record when I was 19 years old, -that’s 11 years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the nature of it? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I forged some hot checks and paid them off, but because -I still had a bunch of them out—I had three charges in Fort Worth, -eight in Dallas, the sum total was roughly $3,000. Restitution was made -prior to the time I went to court. I went to court and received 3 years -concurrently on each charge, 3 years on each charge in Fort Worth, 3 -years on each charge in Dallas, and concurrently backdated at Fort -Worth to August of 1952. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the Federal Court? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; State and county. I was in prison from -February—well, I was arrested August 1952, pleaded guilty in Fort Worth -in November 1952, pleaded guilty in Dallas in January 1953, went to -Huntsville Prison in February 1953, made conditional pardon in December -1953—do you want all this? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and you were released then, I take it? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. Pardon was reversed because I was married and I -was voluntarily returned from Denver, Colo.; I just came back myself -and turned myself in at Huntsville and I was released in April of 1956. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were actually released from Huntsville in December -1953, under a conditional pardon? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; to Denver, Colo. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that it was with the permission of the -State of Texas—Texas authorities? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you on any terms of good conduct? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had to report each month. - -Mr. HUBERT. In Denver? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right, and obtain a job, and I obtained one and my -parole officer—I asked him should I tell them I’m on parole, and he -said “No,” and three places I worked after I was there he called -and asked how I was doing and identified himself, which caused my -termination, and the last place I worked was a laundry. I was driving a -truck and the man told him—do you want the words he used? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. “I don’t give a damn what he is doing, he is doing a -good job.” And I have a better recommendation from him that he sent me -when I came back to Texas. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said something about turning yourself in? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; my parole was revoked in July 1955. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for that? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. The reason on my revokement is “unadjustment, unable to -adjust.” - -Mr. HUBERT. That was done in Texas or Colorado? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was done in Colorado—in Denver, and in August 1955, -I left Denver, Colo., and drove home and said goodbye to Mother and Dad -and drove down to Huntsville—in fact, my Dad drove down to Huntsville -with me. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you found out that the Colorado people -had in effect recommended the revocation or revoked your parole, you -knew that you would be eventually sought? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Or just sent back. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you just bypassed that and drove yourself into -Huntsville? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I went to Austin first to the parole board and they -said, “We have already reviewed your case and formulated an opinion. -You are going back.” And I said, “Well, I’m not going back today. I’ll -go back tomorrow,” and I went back the following day and turned myself -in. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. From August 1955 until April 1956, and I was discharged -in April 1956. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you discharged completely? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or on conditions? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely. - -Mr. HUBERT. Completely? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No conditions whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. No conditions at all. Have you had any difficulty since -then? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Do you want the FBI fingerprint record for the time -I have been picked up? I have been picked up six or seven times for -investigation. I was picked up in Arizona for investigation, I was -picked up in Florida for investigation. I got low on money—I wrote some -hot checks in 1957 in Arlington, Va., and I paid them off and that was -my latest. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were not charged? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes: in Arlington, Va., in 1957, I got 6 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. And did you serve any part of that time? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how much? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Five months—four months. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you were discharged from that without condition? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—without condition. That was in a county jail. I was -a trustee—I was head cook. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you had any other convictions since then? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since then—no, sir; one felony and one misdemeanor. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the two you have already told us about? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you were 19 and the other one in 1957? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was charged—excuse me—I was picked up in January or -February 1958 and returned to Arlington, Va., and I was released at -Arlington, Va., in August 1958. - -Mr. HUBERT. Since August 1958, you have had no trouble with the law? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Other than the fact that I—of being picked up for -investigation. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you had no convictions? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. None. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged at all—formally, I mean, by actual -indictment? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—no indictments. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are not under any charge right now? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say you are married; when were you married? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I got married in 1961. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you support yourself between July 1963, and January -1964, when you were unemployed? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. My wife was working—my wife was working and I lived -with her and my mother. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to get work? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that’s one reason I left Dallas. The person who -is division manager of Great Books that terminated me, falsified—the -reason I was terminated, he accused me of something I did not do, and -I couldn’t prove it. It was my word against his. I couldn’t prove it, -and in January I had a chance to go to Houston to work for Great Books -and I went there and I tried to use the name of Robert Field—I had made -man-of-the-month for the Great Books organization of the whole United -States, and my picture was in their magazine called the Phenix. And the -division manager in Houston recognized me and checked it out and then 2 -weeks later I had requested from this gentleman here about three orders -for me to be paid off. He had said they did not clear, that there was -no money involved and 3 weeks later through my bank here in Dallas, -Bank of Services and Trust, it just so happens that the man’s name is -Charles Counter. He has his personal account there also, and I’ve got -him on two counts of forgery right now. He took my paycheck, signed my -name, and endorsed it over to him. I have the photostats from the bank -and the photostats of the canceled checks that cleared the company. - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the point I think you are making—that your -opportunity to get with Great Books of the Western World in Houston was -frustrated because of the fact that you had changed your name and they -found out. That is, changed your name to the extent of leaving off the -first syllable of your last name? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, and the division manager there even talked to the -president of the company and he said “No.” So, I went to work for this -bowling supply which is owned by F. M. Curtis and Mel Livingston and -I told them my past record, and Mr. Curtis is a highway patrolman, he -has an interest in the supply business and he said, “I’ll give you a -break,” and I’ve been doing real good since. He just gave me a break. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say you are a professional bowler? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you competed? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; in 1960 and 1961 I did, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I bowled in the All-American here in Dallas, the -PBA tour in 1961, I bowled in the Santa Fe Open in 1961 and I bowled in -the small—when I say “small” I mean $3,000 to $5,000 total first place, -singles and doubles tournaments. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever won any prizes? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, I have won prizes but I have never won the first -place—no. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the most that you have won? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. $750. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Ardmore, Okla. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ardmore, Okla.? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. 1961. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the year—what tournament was it? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. It’s called the Ardmore Classic. I think they run -it from about May to about August. It’s 8 games across 16 lanes, -handicapped from 2 to 10. - -Mr. HUBERT. You won $750—which was not first place, but what? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. About eighth place. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you won it under your name W. W. Litchfield or Bob -Litchfield? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas, I take it, in the last 6 -months of 1963? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. 302 West Clarendon. I also lived at the Drexel House -Apartments. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, me, I have forgotten the address—Henderson and Knox. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who runs that? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I’ve forgotten the lady’s name that runs that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—she does not run it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Bertha Cheek? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what street she lives on? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do—Bertha Cheek lives on Swiss Avenue. She owns -an apartment house on Swiss, but the Drexel House is on—right off the -corner of Knox. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever live at Bertha Cheek’s boarding house or -apartment? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Never? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know her? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I met her through a fellow at the bowling alley—I don’t -remember his last name. He owns an electric company here in town, the -one that has the lighting for all the fairgrounds, Bob Sands Electric -Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he operates the bowling alley? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; he was a bowler. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was a bowler himself? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever visit at her place? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, her apartment? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, let’s see, spasmodically from September to October -and November of 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words you met her—— - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. In September—I’m pretty sure it was, about the latter -part of August or the first of September. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you met her by simply being introduced to her by Sands -at a bowling alley? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; he told me she had planned on putting in a lounge -and Bob had given her my phone number and she called me on the pretext -that I might build it and run it for her. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see her then? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you went to her house? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; on Swiss. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never before that—she said she had seen me, but there -was no recollection or no introduction prior to that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened to the negotiations that you engaged in -with her? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. It would be that I would have had to divorce my wife -and had to have married her for any other further business to have been -transacted. - -Mr. HUBERT. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t she an older woman than you are -a man? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe she is—she’s 30-something or 40-something. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you are saying to us that she made it a condition? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. It wasn’t a verbal condition—it was a obvious -condition. It was a situation that was arising, let’s say that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you perceived that you would have to marry her if this -thing was to go forward? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. That, or divorce my wife. - -Mr. HUBERT. But she did not say so? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think she intimated it? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let’s say, from my past experience and knowledge -of—worldly knowledge—I would assume this, that’s being kind of tactful. - -Mr. HUBERT. I was wondering if you could point to any events, since you -can’t point to any words that gave you that impression? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Without being too personal or intimate on my own -actions or any actions other than hers, no; and I don’t care to be. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I knew Jack. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Jack used to own the Vegas Club and I used to go there -quite a bit. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do—how long do you suppose it is that you have known -Jack? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, I would say from 1959—October, roughly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Continuously? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I will go in and say “hello” to him, see him -whenever I would go in. It wasn’t a friendship relation that I would go -out of my way to call him or see him or that he would call me. He had -no way of knowing how to call me. He knew me when he saw me and said, -“Hello, how are you?” - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel Club, did you visit it? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have been in that place twice. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when that was? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I was associated with Bertha and she was thinking -of putting in a business, we looked at a whole bunch of clubs she -thought were for sale, and I knew the Vegas Club was not making any -money and I would have liked to have tried to buy it from Jack, so one -night I went down to see him—I had called and he said he would be there -about 10:30 or 11 and he got there about 11:15 or 11:30, something like -that, and I discussed the purchase of the Vegas Club and that’s when he -told me it had, I think, $40,000 worth of Federal liens or something -against it which still had it, and he tried to sell me the Carousel and -I wouldn’t attempt to put in a private club in downtown Dallas; I was -thinking of making the Vegas a private club by remodeling it. - -Mr. HUBERT. But what you wanted to put in was a private club, not an -open or public club like the Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s right—a private club. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was your opinion that the Carousel was not the -proper place for a private club? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right—any downtown location. You see, I cannot obtain -an open—let’s say a beer license because of my record with the city -of Dallas, but I can obtain a private club license from the State of -Texas, even though I have a record. I talked to Buddy Mills on the -liquor board and he said, “If you haven’t done anything in 3 to 5 -years—no conviction or anything,” you can. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you were in the Carousel and you -were there with Cheek? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I was not. I was alone. That was the second time I -had been in there. I had been in there one other time—I just went in to -see what it was—I didn’t speak to anybody at all that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us the date of the second time that you did -speak to him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think right around the middle of October—the second -week or the third week, somewhere along in there—the exact date—no; I -cannot. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that at the time—or you said once before -in your statement—at the time you were there there were some people -taking pictures of the club? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. There were some fellows—you see, when I walked in Jack -wasn’t there and I told the doorman, whom I found out later was his -roommate—I don’t remember the man’s name, that I was to see Jack on -business and he said he wasn’t there, and so I sat down and had some -coffee and watched the bumps and what have you, and after Jack came in, -then he had to see two or three people before me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to mention to the doorman or anybody else -around there that you were from California? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did so? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you tell that to, do you remember? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman and some other fellow that was sitting -there. He asked me where I was from and I said, “California and -Phoenix”—is all I said. I didn’t think it was any of his business who I -was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the other man, other than the -doorman to whom you said that? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—he was a little short fellow, I would say late -forties or maybe even middle fifties. If I remember right he had kind -of a silver hairline—I don’t remember—whether he was kind of bald in -the center or not, I know it was receding, and he had an appearance of -being of Jewish descent. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you might recognize his name? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I doubt it, because when he was introduced to me I -didn’t pay that much attention to it—no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who introduced you? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman. They were sitting there together drinking -a Seven-Up or a Sprite. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, so, you just stayed and waited for Jack? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think—30 or 45 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Jack came in? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. The dog first, then him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he see you right away? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he walked by me because I was sitting right by the -door and he turned and said something to the doorman first and then I -think he went on back and put his hat up and came back to the doorman, -and that’s when the doorman pointed me out—he walked over and said—just -a moment—he had two or three other fellows to see him—I was sitting by -the door—have you ever been in the Carousel? - -Mr. HUBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was sitting by the door like this, as you are -walking in you have to turn left. There is an aisle and there was a -fellow sitting back here by the pole with the light switches on it -and there was a fellow sitting in front of me, and then there was -the photographer who was there. I didn’t meet the photographer until -after I had been introduced to Jack and Jack introduced me to him—some -magazine for strippers like Male or Stag type magazine and he was -taking pictures and he had to get releases from the strippers—some -kind of a release they would have to sign so that he could take their -pictures. - -Mr. HUBERT. You saw him getting the releases from the people? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I saw how he came in and he had the releases in -his hand. He said he had to get all of the girls to sign them and he -said all of them would sign them except one. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was when you were talking to Jack in his office? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. In his office. - -Mr. HUBERT. The photographer came in and said that he had some papers -in his hand which you understood to be releases? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he said he had the releases and had to go out and -get them signed, and then he came back again and said all except one -was signed. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was on that occasion that you talked to Jack about -buying the Vegas? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he counteroffered by suggesting that you buy the -Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that that was the last time you saw Jack -that night? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was until I saw him on television—I happened to be -playing poker then. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of that occasion with reference to -particularly the death of the President, about how long before? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, it was probably the middle of -October. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was about a month and a little bit before -the death of the President? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. He was killed the last half of November—maybe 5 weeks -or 6 weeks—it was about the middle of October. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously stated that you saw a man in -there on this occasion who you thought was Oswald? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did—in fact, I made the statement, as I was saying a -while ago, when I was playing poker—a bunch of fellows from the bowling -alley—we usually play on Saturday night. We started about 9:30 and -the game continued all through the night—one of those $2 limit games -and we were still playing Sunday, and the fellow’s wife had carried -the children to church and come back and said something about Ruby -had shot Oswald on television. No, excuse me, “Had shot him.” She had -heard it on the radio, and so we turned on the television and they were -rerunning all of this and a big hullabaloo over it and that was the -next time I saw Jack. - -Mr. HUBERT. And did you make any comment at that time that you had seen -Oswald in the Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had seen Oswald on television before. I said, “That -guy looks familiar,” and a few of the fellows were around, and I don’t -remember where I said it there at the poker game, but somebody said, -“I think I’ve seen that Oswald around somewhere,” and I made the -statement, “Yes, I think I have seen him too,” and that was the extent -of it. Nothing more was said. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that statement you made that you had seen Oswald around -somewhere, was it made before Oswald was shot? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you repeat it thereafter? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did to a friend of mine who is on the vice squad here -in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what is his name? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Donald Green. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, it was the day preceding the day that I went -down—I think I went down on a Monday to the police station to talk -to the FBI agents and everybody, so I must have talked to Don on the -Sunday night preceding that or on Saturday. I called him on the phone -and I told him, “I think I have seen that man with Jack up at the -Carousel.” I said, “I don’t know, but I’m pretty darn sure I have.” And -he made some calls and called me back and said the police department -right now wants to talk to me, and he met me—I believe it was Monday, -I’m pretty sure it was a Monday, he met me Monday morning about 9:15 -or 9:30 at the coffee shop of the Statler and we walked on up to the -police station. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you made a statement of that? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that same day you made a statement to the -FBI? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Two FBI agents. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think they asked you to take a polygraph test too? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you did? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. And the tests showed that I hadn’t seen him because -when the man giving it asked me, “Have you definitely seen him,” and I -said, “Yes,” and it showed that I hadn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean he told you the results of the test? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he didn’t tell me the results of the test, but -Donald did—he didn’t tell me—he didn’t come right out and say, “No,” -but it was obvious. They had me pick Oswald’s picture out of a bunch -of police photographs, and anybody on the street could pick that man’s -picture out. That doesn’t mean I have seen him—I told them that—I said, -“Heck, anybody walking can pick his picture out.” - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had observed to someone prior to the shooting of -Oswald that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who were the people that you were—that you observed that to? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let me understand your question—whom did I say this to? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I mentioned it like I said, there at the poker game. - -Mr. HUBERT. This was the same poker game that went on into Sunday the -24th? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Was that the day that Oswald was killed? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that would be it. From Saturday the 23d to Sunday -the 24th—I made it then, and— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it after Oswald was shot at that same poker -game? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s when I made it. We was watching it on -television—the rerun of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I had understood you to say that you had said you thought -you had seen Oswald somewhere, and that you made that statement prior -to the time that Oswald was shot? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I made it once but like I said, I don’t remember who I -made it to. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was not at the poker game? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—the statement at the poker game—we were watching it -on television and it showed everything there and someone says, “I think -I’ve seen that fellow,” and I said, “Yes; I think I’ve seen him too.” -That was the second time I had said it—before when his picture came out -and everything, I said, “I think I have seen him,” but I don’t remember -where I was when I said it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did your poker game begin? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, Saturday night about 9 or 9:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. And went on until—— - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Into Sunday and until about 6:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the afternoon? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that the first time you made the observation that you -thought you had seen Oswald somewhere must have been before the poker -game began? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that would be before 9 o’clock on Saturday? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was. It was right after the assassination—they -were showing all the films and the capture of Oswald, etc., and when I -was watching television, I don’t remember where I was, I said, “I think -I’ve seen him.” And people sitting around me said, “He looks familiar,” -and I made the statement, “I think I have seen him.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Oswald was shot and you made the statement again -that you had thought you had seen Oswald, did you say anything that -would indicate that you had seen him, Oswald, at Ruby’s place? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I just said, “I think I’ve seen him too,” I forgot -who it was I said that to, but the guy said. “I think I have seen him -or I think I know that guy,” and I just said, “Yes; I think I have seen -him, too.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that—then that it might have been that -you had seen him at Ruby’s place? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I started trying to remember—everybody was sitting -around and saying, “Where have you seen him?” Trying to think, and I -thought about it and I remembered seeing a man similar to him, very -similar to him at the Carousel that night I was there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to anybody? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Just Don Green when I called him on the phone and then -when I went down to the police department. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to any of the people you were playing -poker with? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us the names of the people you were playing -poker with, whose house was it at, first? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs [spelling] G-r-u-b-b-s. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Boy, I can’t tell you that—I can tell you how to go -there, but I don’t remember what street it is. You go out Beckley past -the A. Harris shopping center—I don’t remember the name of the street, -you turn left and then you went down a couple of blocks and you turn -left again—there were three cars of us and I followed. I don’t remember -the name of the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the names of some of the other people at -the poker game? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs and there was Ernie Stoy [spelling] -E-r-n-i-e and S-t-o-y, and one fellow I just met, he just came in—I -didn’t know, and another fellow, gee, I sure wish I could remember his -name. I know him when I see him—they are always at the bowling alley, -he usually bets on the pot games, and he is a big heavy set black -headed fellow and Max Lewis was there. - -Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] L-e-w-i-s? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes [spelling], L-e-w-i-s, and I think there was one -more—I don’t remember who that was. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were all there throughout the game—were they all there -throughout the game? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Max left Sunday morning and then returned. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time it became known that Ruby had shot Oswald, -did you observe to anyone that you knew Ruby? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe I did. I think everybody was saying whether -they knew him or not and I believe I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else there know him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think one or two others might have said that they -knew him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Grubbs knew him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who said they knew him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I could assume, but I don’t remember who said that they -knew him. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you did not at that time say that you thought -you had seen Oswald in the Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I just said that—you are getting mixed up. I -said—when it became obvious that Ruby had shot him, we were watching -it on television, and we were, you know, how you are talking, “I think -I know him,” and I said, “I’m pretty sure I know Jack Ruby,” and I -said, “What is that idiot doing now?” Or something like that, and I -forgot that someone said, “That Oswald, I think I’ve seen him somewhere -before,” and that’s when I said it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said the same thing, “I think I’ve seen him?” - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was it you began to associate Oswald as a man that -you had seen somewhere before—and as also the man you had seen in Jack -Ruby’s club the last time you were there? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was that day—not that I was associating -necessarily it with Ruby—it was that everybody all of a sudden had seen -him and they were trying to think where they had seen him and I was -trying to remember where I had seen him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, my point is that you ultimately came to tell Jack -Green—— - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Don Green. - -Mr. HUBERT. Don Green, that you thought you had seen him at the -Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did that firm up in your mind, because from what I -gather it was not firmed in your mind where you had seen him, on the -Sunday when you were playing poker, isn’t that right? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct. I wasn’t positive then, no, where I had seen -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you become positive that you had seen him at the -Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was thinking about it during the week, on -Thursday or Friday, and it dawned on me that that looked like the -fellow that I had seen in the Carousel. - -There was another fellow up there that I had never seen before and made -a heck of an impression on me—he was about twice my size, a real flashy -dresser, white on white shirt and his suit was a very flashy type, -and he had just gotten married, but he, himself, made a heck of an -impression on me, the way he was dressed and his size, and this fellow -that I had seen in the Carousel made a heck of an impression on me the -way he was dressed—he was dressed sloppy—in a sloppy shirt and kind -of a gray khaki-type pants. I thought, “What is this idiot doing up -here?” You know, because it is known that the Carousel is a clip joint -and you’ve got to be an idiot to go in there in the first place, or a -tourist, one of the two, and I just ran—I guess you would just say that -it came into my mind that that looked like the fellow I had seen. I was -associating the sloppy dress with him because he was dressed sloppy on -television and when you see it repeatedly and repeatedly—you remember -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you think the man might have been Oswald that -you saw in the Carousel was dressed on the occasion you saw him, which -was the last time you saw Ruby? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. He had on a white sweater and kind of a T-shirt-type -sweater, and a pair of, I guess they were gray khakis or they might -have been gabardine, there was no crease in them and they were real -sloppy and his hair wasn’t combed, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t talk to him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, I didn’t talk to anybody while I was there other -than Jack and I did meet that photographer—I don’t remember his name. -Jack introduced me, and I did meet that great big guy. He came back -into the office—he did once while I was in there with Jack and he -had just gotten married to some girl from Galveston and they were -celebrating their honeymoon and I was thinking, “You’ve got to be a nut -to come to a place like this to celebrate a honeymoon.” - -Mr. HUBERT. When you came out of Jack’s office, did you see this man -that you think might be Oswald in there still? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. When you come out of his office, you can’t see -nothing—you walk down the hall and turn left and then you are back in -the club part of it—the Carousel. - -Now, when I came back in the club part, the man that I thought was -Oswald had already seen Jack—I was the last one to see him—I don’t -think there were more than two or three people left in the club—this -big heavy-set fellow and his wife were still there. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man you thought was Oswald was waiting -to see Jack? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he was ahead of you? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had an opportunity to observe him then as the man -who got to see Jack before you did? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he there before you got there? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And was sitting down at the table? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he drinking something? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t remember if he had something or not. He was in -front of me and all I could see was his back at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get a look at his face? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. When he left he had to walk right by me. The door is -not more than—it’s one of these partition-type doors and it is not -more than 5 feet or 4 feet wide, and the table I was sitting at—I was -sitting at the edge of the door. I couldn’t help but see him when he -walked along there. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in with Jack? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No more than 10 or 15 or 20 minutes, maybe, at the most. - -Mr. HUBERT. And when he came out you went in Jack’s office? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; you see, Jack’s office is back, in the back and you -got to walk down two halls and Jack came out and got me. This fellow -came out and then Jack came out and got me and I went back there with -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what this fellow you thought might be -Oswald did at that time? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. He went on out the door. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; not until I saw him on television—and I thought it -was the same one. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, that impression got firmer and firmer in your mind, as -I gather it, as the week went on? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. After that Sunday television seeing Jack shoot him -there; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But when you told Don Green your impression, it was not the -same day, was it? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; it was a week later. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was actually the Sunday later? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was Saturday or Sunday. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the impression began to grow on you more and more that -it might well be the same man? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And as a matter of fact, as I understand you, it grew so -much that you thought you should tell someone about it? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I called Don and asked him what he thought I should do. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested coming to the office and I think you have -told us about that. - -Was there another man around there you heard had come from California? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. There was somebody waiting to see Jack, like I said, -that was sitting—there was a aisle going straight and you got to turn -left—back by the pole where the light switches are, and he was waiting -to see him and I believe he said he was from California and he was in -his middle thirties, a black-headed fellow. I never met the man and he -saw Jack and he was still there when I left. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. This fellow we are speaking of now. - -Mr. HUBERT. From California, you mean? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think he said he was from California. I think when I -came in the doorman said, “Well, there are two other people here and -the photographer to see him ahead of you,” when I first came in, and he -said, “He’s late now, but you can have a seat and wait if you want to.” -And the two other people were the fellow whom I assumed that looked -like this Oswald, and this fellow, I believe that said he was from -California and the photographer—were the three people in front of me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the man who said he was from California talk to -the man you think was Oswald? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen Oswald before? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; never had. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were shown pictures of Oswald, is that right? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was shown a police photograph of him, front and side -view, with three others. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your impression at that time as to whether Oswald -was the man you had seen in the Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I wasn’t asked my impression at that time—all I was -asked is, “Pick out Oswald,” and I said, “There he is, anybody walking -in Dallas could do it.” - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose in having you pick out Oswald? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would imagine the police department wanted to know if -I really knew him or really had seen someone like him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you picked out Oswald, were you simply picking -out Oswald because you had seen his picture on television, or were you -picking him out because he was the man you thought you had seen in the -Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I picked out his picture, I was picking it out -because I had seen it on television so many times. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, the police wouldn’t ask you to pick out Oswald’s -picture unless there was some reason for your specific identification -of Oswald. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You had called Green, from what you tell me, to tell him -that you thought that you had seen a man who looked like Oswald at the -Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t that the reason why they were asking you to pick out -the man that you had seen at the Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would assume—I don’t know. I wouldn’t know their -reasoning behind it. I would assume this would be it, but when I picked -him out, I told them at the time, I made the statement, “Anybody in -Dallas could pick him out—he was on the TV so much.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell them that the man I now know is Oswald -from the films and that I am now picking him out is also the man that I -saw at the Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You told them that? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you believe that to be true? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I thought it was until they convinced me I was wrong. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about it now? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said, “It sure as heck looked like him,” that’s all I -can say now. Of course, I don’t want to say I’m definitely positive it -is—I said, “It’s a heck of a close resemblance.” - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s your testimony right now, that as far as the man -you saw and have described—sloppy clothes, white jacket—T-shirt -type—go in and see Ruby before you on an occasion approximately 5 -weeks before the assassination of the President, that that man and the -Oswald photographs later shown you, you think that they bore a close -resemblance? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they do—they bear a resemblance. - -Mr. HUBERT. I gather that you were more positive of the identity of -Oswald as being the man in the Carousel on the occasion we have been -speaking about at one time than you are now? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What has caused your opinion in the matter to weaken? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. The fact that they gave me the polygraphic test, that -showed when they asked me—was it definitely him, it didn’t show up -right, and the fact that I had told Don when I called him, I said, “It -sure as heck looks like him,” and when the police were questioning me, -they said, “Are you positive, are you positive, are you positive?” - -I said, “It looks like him, it looks like him, it looks like him.” And -they come back, “Are you positive, are you positive?” And then the fact -that when the Federal agents talked to me, they said, “You know, if you -say you are positive and it wasn’t him,” it’s a Federal charge, and I -said, “Well, I’m not that positive.” - -Mr. HUBERT. The Federal agent told you if you gave an opinion—— - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; they said, “If you give false information as to an -exact statement—” not an opinion, but if I say I’m positive, that’s a -statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you conveying to me that you really were -positive, but that—— - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. In my mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were scared off of it? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; no, sir. I said in my mind I was positive that -it looked like him, but I’m just as fallible as anybody else. I could -be 100 percent wrong. I said, “In my mind, the man that I saw looked -just like him,” but then again, I can’t say 100 percent. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is still your opinion? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said it bears a close resemblance, but not having -come in contact with Oswald at all or having never met him or anything, -and just seeing him for a fleeting glance, the back of his head and -when he walked by me; no, I can’t be 100 percent pure positive. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you knew all of that the first time you told it to -Green? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, “It sure does look like him—the man -I saw there sure does look like Oswald,” those are my words. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, what has caused you to weaken in your opinion it was -Oswald, as you tell it to me, is the fact that you got the impression -that if you gave a positive identification and it proved to be false, -that it would be a Federal offense, is that correct? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they said, giving false information to the FBI, -and I’m not 100 percent pure positive. I say, “It bears a close -resemblance,” and this is all I can say. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you did tell them? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; that’s the statement I signed. - -Now, the big heavy-set fellow that I met, I shook hands with, made an -impression on me. I was as close to him as I am to you now, or closer. -I shook hands with him, and I saw him more than for a fleeting moment. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to show you a picture and ask you if you can see any -resemblance between the picture I am going to show you and the man you -thought might be Oswald—this picture I am going to show you, the man is -dressed up, but if you can use your imagination to see if there is any -resemblance? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. To see if there is any resemblance? - -Mr. HUBERT. To see if there is any resemblance in the face, at least, -and the hair, and so forth? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; Oswald’s hair isn’t that thick in the center. - -Mr. HUBERT. I’m not talking about Oswald, I’m talking about the man you -saw at the club you thought might be Oswald. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; there is no resemblance. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is no resemblance? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the picture that I have shown -to the witness has been identified as Exhibit 5302 in the deposition -of Andrew Armstrong. Do you know Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had difficulties with him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Once. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what regard? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. He sent two men to the place that I was working and -had them pick me up for investigation without a warrant, bodily remove -me out of my office, and held me on robbery by firearms, which I -couldn’t have a writ of habeas corpus that night, or something, I had -to go before a judge or something, and I didn’t get out until the next -morning, and he didn’t even appear at the hearing. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. That was in—I think it was March or April of 1961, I -believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him since? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, when I had to go down to the police station, I -did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean the next morning? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; when I had to go down for questioning. No, he -didn’t even show up at the hearing there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jess Willard Lynch -[spelling] J-e-s-s W-i-l-l-a-r-d L-y-n-c-h? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t think so—the name doesn’t sound familiar. I -know a Lynch, but Jess Willard Lynch? - -Mr. HUBERT. What Lynch do you know? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I know a Donald Lynch from school. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is he in Dallas? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long has it been since you have seen him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. High school. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see—that is to say about 10 or 12 years ago? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Roughly—that name doesn’t sound familiar. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a person by the name of Earlene Roberts? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Earlene Roberts—I don’t remember whether I know her or -not. Closely, I don’t—I could have dated her or seen her, but closely, -I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. I’ll put it this way, when I mention the name of Earlene -Roberts, do you associate it with anybody you know? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I used to go out quite a bit in my life, and I -went with a number of people, and I was thinking that I dated one time -a girl named Earlene, but I don’t remember her last name—that’s why I -stopped and hesitated. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the person whose image came to your mind when I -mentioned Earlene Roberts? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that Earlene Roberts, that I am talking about, -is the sister of Bertha Cheek? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. If she’s her sister, I was trying to think if I ever -met Bertha’s sister. I talked to her on the phone once. Bertha told me -she had two sisters, I believe, wait a minute—Earlene Roberts is the -one that lives in California, I believe, I believe it is, and Bertha -went out to see her, maybe, when Bertha went out to California 4 or -5 days on some business, and then I was helping her remodel the home -over there and painting then, and I think I had to call her and I think -Earlene Roberts was the person I called in California, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. You called the person in California for Cheek? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. To talk to Bertha when she was out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was when? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Maybe October—maybe November. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was after you were negotiating with her? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, but I don’t remember the exact date. I knew that -name sounded real familiar. - -Mr. HUBERT. Bill DeMar, or have you heard of him? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. You will have to associate it with something for me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was an MC at Jack’s Carousel Club. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I don’t know that man. I saw him—he did a song -or something while I was there, but I don’t know him, if that’s who it -is—I don’t know him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the story in the Press after Ruby shot -Oswald that he said that he had seen him at the Carousel? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. I never knew of that—I never knew that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by anybody of the Commission’s -staff other than myself? - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; the only people I have talked to is the Dallas -Police Force and to two FBI agents, and I didn’t have any knowledge -that you would talk to me until yesterday. They called long distance -for me and he called me this morning—I bowl in a scratch league on -Thursday night and he told me I had to be here at room 301 at 3 p.m. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, we pushed it up a little bit for you. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, Mr. Sorrels called me this morning and asked me if -I could make it earlier, and I said “I will leave on the flight 11:45 -and I am booked definite at 5:15 going back and on a standby on this -one here.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can make the 5:15 now, because you are through -right now. - -Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. I will get to see my -wife for a while. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ALICE REAVES NICHOLS - -The testimony of Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols was taken at 2:15 p.m., on -April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. -Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols -is present, and before we began anything, she walked into the room -and she asked me if it would be possible to withhold her name from -the press. I told her I would check. I have talked with Mr. Hubert -of our office, to find out what the policy has been in the past, and -he assured me that in the past we have, on the request of witnesses, -not released the name to the press. I stated previously that all we -have ever released is the name. We have never discussed and will not -discuss with the press any testimony. However, we can’t give you any -assurance that they won’t find out you were here. For example, there -are newspaper reporters all over this building, and I don’t recognize -them and perhaps you will, and perhaps they might recognize you or try -to find out, if they don’t recognize you, who you are. Unfortunately, -anything they can learn about what goes on is something that they want -to print, so we can’t assure you that the name won’t go out, but we can -assure you it won’t get out from anything we do. I am sorry we can’t -give you any more protection than that. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I appreciate that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a -special consultant to the General Counsel’s staff of the President’s -Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. - -This Commission has been set up under a couple of governmental acts, -one of which is an Executive order issued by President Johnson on -November 30, 1963, and another one from the joint resolution of -Congress. The effect of both of these acts has been to establish a -Commission with a staff which has power to subpena witnesses and take -testimony and conduct an investigation and prescribe various rules and -procedures, and we are operating under these rules of procedure. - -I might explain that under the rules of the Commission I have been -specifically designated to come here and talk to you and take your -deposition. Now the purpose of this deposition is to inquire into -all of the facts and evaluate the facts and report back to President -Johnson on the facts that have to do with the death of President -Kennedy and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. In your particular case, -Mrs. Nichols, you have known Jack Ruby for many years, and you have -been good enough to tell the FBI at some length what you knew about -him. We want now to see if there is any more that can be added by -this type of questioning. But we are also interested, I might add, in -anything you might know that might have any significance to the whole -investigation we are conducting. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you got a letter from the Commission asking you -to appear? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I did. I had a telephone call first. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it wasn’t Mr. Sorrels. I believe the man said his -name was Howell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Howlett? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive your letter? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I received a letter last Friday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I might also say, I don’t want to scare you by saying -this, because we say it to everybody, that you are entitled under the -rules of the Commission to appear here with an attorney if you so -desire, and it is not unusual that people do that. But I see that you -don’t have an attorney here, and I take it that you don’t desire one. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t think it was necessary. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Most people do feel that way. It is an expense, for one -thing. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I know several attorneys here, but I didn’t think it was -necessary. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t think anything will come up in the course of -your deposition that should make you feel you want an attorney. But I -always want to make clear that at any time throughout your deposition -you are free to stop the thing. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We try to be pretty nice, and I don’t think we will have -too many difficulties. Let me ask you then if you have any questions -about the deposition that is to be taken, before I ask you to raise -your hand and be sworn? Anything that you think you would want to know? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t know of anything. - -Mrs. GRIFFIN. All right, would you raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Alice Reaves Nichols. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Mrs. Nichols? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your maiden name? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. My maiden name was Small: Alice Reaves Small. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. 8707 Redondo. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I hate to ask embarrassing questions of women, but could -you tell us when you were born? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. February the 1st, 1915. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you lived in Dallas all your life? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I lived away from Dallas. I was born and raised here, but -I lived away about 7 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1937 to about 1944. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I am. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Southland Life Insurance Co. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do there? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I am a secretary. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you work for anyone in particular? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I am secretary to the vice president and treasurer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his name? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. John E. Mangrum. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to ask you if you will hand me those two -documents that you have there? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to mark them and ask you some questions in -connections with them. I want to hand you what I have marked as -“Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’ Exhibit 5355.” This -document consists of a number of pages starting with the No. 283, at -the bottom, going through page 291. - -It purports to be a copy of a report of an interview that you had with -two FBI Agents, Mr. Albert Sayres and Mr. Paul Scott on November 25, -1963. I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you had a chance to -read that over before the deposition started? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is there anything in there that you feel is not -accurate, an accurate report of what you told the FBI on that day? I am -not referring to whether or not you, after thinking about it, that you -make some changes, but whether you noticed anything in there that does -not accurately reflect what you said at that time, and if so, whether -you want to make some changes in it? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. There are a few things in here that I notice that are not -exactly right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you if you would refer to the page -on which the mistaken material appears, and if you would read the -material that is mistaken and then we will talk about it. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I may have said it as it is here, but I know that I said -that I didn’t think that Joe Bonds had an interest in the Vegas Club. -But after thinking it over, I believe that he had for a short time an -interest with Jack Ruby. But I believe that at this time that I talked -with the FBI men, I had forgotten about that. But since thinking it -over—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you pick out of there what page that appears on? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Let me put on my glasses. [Looks through document.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe I can find it for you. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I read it in there. It is in there some place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be on page 284. Let me read the language to -you, and you can tell me if that is what you had reference to. - -The paragraph at the top of the page which reads: “During the time she -was associated with Jack Ruby, Ruby was friendly with one Joe Bond when -he operated the club on West Commerce Street in Dallas, Texas. She did -not believe that Ruby and Bond were ever associated in any business.” - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That is it. Yes; that’s right, I believe for a short time -that Joe Bond had an interest in the Vegas Club with Jack Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now has something happened since this interview, the -original interview that you had with the FBI that made you remember -that or think that Joe did have some business interest in the Vegas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I have just thought over the questions that they asked -me, and I recall that I believe that he did. I have been thinking it -over. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did have? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack Ruby told me himself that Joe -Bond had an interest. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at here is, is there anything in -particular that made you remember this? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nothing in particular. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in this interview of November 25, -that you think ought to be changed or corrected? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you what is marked for the purpose of -identification as Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’ -Exhibit 5356. This document consists of two pages, and it purports to -be a copy of an interview that you had with another FBI Agent, Mr. -Albert Sayres. I guess you talked with Sayers on the 25th, also, but -this interview was on January 18, 1964. Have you had a chance to read -that over? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you would make in -that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; that is correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to go back, and I am going to ask you some -questions that are, some of which are biographical and some have to do -with Jack Ruby, and some helter-skelter. When did your husband die? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was divorced in 1947, but he didn’t die until -1961. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. While we were married, he was with Commercial Standard -Insurance Co. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after your divorce? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t talk to him very often. He went into the -insurance adjusting business, his own business for a while. Then I -understand at the time of his death he was in the jewelry business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Nichols’ Garage here in town. Is that any -relationship to your husband? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it is not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe also that the building that Jack had the -Carousel Club in is owned by the Nichols’ family or by the Nichols’ -estate. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have heard that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that any relationship to your husband? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; there is no relationship. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I first saw him in a grocery store. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. It was close to his Silver Spur nightclub, there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. South Ervay Street? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I was in a grocery store. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in that general area? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. My mother lived close by. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you never met him before? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come up and talk to you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t. I had my daughter with me, and later on -when I was waiting for the bus to go home, he saw me standing on the -corner and he came over and introduced himself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About when was that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That was the early part of 1949. I don’t know the exact -date. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think in your earlier interview with Agent Sayres on the -25th, you indicated that you thought you had met him in about 1948. -Have you had a chance to think since then so that your feeling now is -that it was 1949? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I started going with him the latter -part of 1949, and I don’t remember the exact date. It was several -months after I first saw him before I ever went with him. I would say -it was 1948, winter of 1948 and 1949, somewhere in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything by which you place it? You mean -that would have been late 1948, or early 1949? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the month. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular way that you place it at that period? -Anything in your life that is significant that would place it in late -1948? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember whether the weather was cold or what -I had on; whether I was wearing a coat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the particular year. Anything happen during the -year 1948 that sticks out in your mind so that you could date your -meeting Ruby in relationship to that event? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember exactly when I first met him, first -saw him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is your daughter? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. My daughter is 25. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So if it were 1948, she would have been about 9 years old? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; that’s right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you started to date Jack, how often did you see Jack? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. It’s been so long ago. I think at first I probably saw -him about once a week, and then later on in the year or so, I would say -about twice a week, was about the most I ever saw him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of man that had any family interests or -seemed to show any interest in settling down? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, in settling down? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; in getting married and raising a family and leading a -conventional kind of married life? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He talked about it some for a period of time. Not all the -time I was going with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe Jack in terms of his impressions -and what he would look forward to and the kind of things he liked? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack had a lot of drive. He was -ambitious. He was always looking for some way to make money, some -extra way to make money. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in particular that attracted you to -Jack? Made Jack attractive to you? Any particular quality about him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He was very nice to me. He always treated me with respect. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack, was he the kind of person that would unburden -himself to you with his personal problems and background? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he talked to me about some of his problems. I don’t -know that he talked to me about all of them, but he did discuss some of -his problems with me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of problems did he seem to have? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business problems. When he lost the Bob Wills -Ranch House, he discussed that with me. He was very upset about that. -He lost a lot of money in that deal. He had to go back to Chicago at -that time, and he discussed his business deals with me—when he bought -the Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t seem to have any particular anxieties that he -would discuss with you? No personal problems; family problems? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, when his two brothers split up their partnership in -Chicago, he talked about that some to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you about that particular problem? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He went back to Chicago that time to try to help settle -their differences. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if this was Earl and Sam? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What seemed to be the differences between the two? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know whether it was—well, I guess it was -just a financial, trying to work out. Sam sold out to Earl, and I think -it was just trying to work out a financial settlement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you why Sam sold out to Earl? -Why Sam left the business? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was just because they weren’t getting along -together, the two brothers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you why they weren’t getting along? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw Jack then on a once-a-week or twice-a-week basis -until about what, 1956 or 1957? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; and then after that I only saw him about once a -week. I saw him about once a week until the latter part of 1959, about -the latter part of November 1959. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you date that in 1959? What makes your memory -remember it as the latter part of 1959 as opposed to 1958 or 1960? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, the reason why I remember that is, I think it -was Christmastime, and we weren’t going together at Christmastime. I -remember thinking that I wouldn’t buy him a Christmas present. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he own the Carousel Club at that time? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he hadn’t taken over the Carousel Club at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about any trips he took? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. The only trips that I knew he took were a few trips to -Chicago, and I knew that he went to Havana one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did he go to Havana? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Only once. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That was in 1959. It was September of 1959. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you—— - -Mrs. NICHOLS. The first part of September. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember it as that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it seemed to me like it was around Labor Day, as I -recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how long Jack stayed in Havana? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Not exactly; but I would say he was there from a week to -10 days. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he went to Havana? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was a pleasure trip. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him off at the airport? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who he was going to visit in Havana? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. The only person he told me he was going to see in Havana -was a man by the name of McWillie. I don’t know if Mr. Mac was his -first name or whether McWillie was his last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever met McWillie? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I had. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you met him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him a few times. Jack had introduced me to -him. I had seen him in the Vegas Club a few times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate to you what McWillie was doing in Havana? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He was managing the Tropicana Night Club, so I understood. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this something that you actually remember yourself, -or something you know from having read about these things in the -newspaper? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I remember him telling me that he was at the -Tropicana. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate whether he had any business interests -with McWillie? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t indicate that he had any business interests. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you at any other time about Cuba or -any interests he might have in Cuba? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that Jack talked to you about all of his -enterprises; business activities? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I knew of nothing that he didn’t discuss with me. I -don’t know of any activities that he didn’t discuss. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you feel Jack was the kind of person who might -do things that he wouldn’t discuss with people? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Discuss with people? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with other people who weren’t involved in that -particular activity? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. He always talked freely to me, I thought. I -never did feel that he—Jack was a big talker. He talks a lot; quite an -extrovert. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to break up with Jack? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a gradual thing. We had no quarrel. We just quit. -He quit calling me. We just quit going together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated that Jack returned to Chicago from time -to time? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That was about August 1952. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it in August? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. As I recall, he lost Bob Wills Ranch House about April or -May 1952, and he stayed here several months, and it was around August, -I believe, when he returned to Chicago. And he stayed about 6 weeks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he lost it, did he go into bankruptcy? Go -through some court proceedings or just sell it to somebody at a loss? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he took bankruptcy or not. I don’t -remember. I don’t think he got anything. I don’t believe he sold it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he forced out of it by anybody? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I was under the impression that he just didn’t have the -money to continue operating. He just had to leave it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place was this Ranch House? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a western type. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Restaurant? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nightclub. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Striptease shows? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack first go into the striptease business? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was not going with Jack when he got into the -striptease business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur a strip joint? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe he did for a time have a strip, a few girls -doing the strip at the Silver Spur, but that was a very short time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this while you were dating him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; but not—that was just for a few months. Maybe not -even that long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start to employ them there? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. How did he what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he start to employ them there? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business was bad and he was just trying to find -some way to build his business up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have entertainment at the Ranch House, Bob Wills -Ranch House? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Have floor shows? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he ever had a floor show. I never did see -a floor show there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a band? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He had a band. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And he sold liquor? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; well, they sold beer and set-ups. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That was on Corinth and Industrial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he operate that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I can’t remember just when he started that. It wasn’t but -a few months. Probably, I would say about 6 months. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur in operation when the Ranch House was -going? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when he sold the Ranch House, what did he do with -the Silver Spur? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He continued to operate both of them. Wait, I beg your -pardon. When he sold which one? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ranch House? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. When he sold the Ranch House? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what happened to the Silver Spur? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He still had the Silver Spur when he sold the Ranch -House, but he sold the Silver Spur. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After he sold the Ranch House? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To whom did he sell the Silver Spur? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. A man by the name of Martin Gimbel or Gimpel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he sold the Ranch House did he sell the -Silver Spur? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. It was very soon. I would say within—doesn’t seem to me -like it—seems like it was about a month after he sold the Ranch House. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know—had you met Martin Gimpel? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you known Martin Gimpel before he bought the -Silver Spur? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I met Martin Gimpel soon after I met Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin living in Dallas at that time? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Martin continue to live in Dallas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t recall how long. I don’t recall how long he lived -in Dallas. Several years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin married? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I really don’t know whether he was -married. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of man was Mr. Gimpel? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t know him too well. I talked to him a few -times, but he seemed very nice to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how he earned his living before he bought the -Silver Spur? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I know that before, he had punchboards for a while, -before it became illegal in Texas, and that is the only business that -I know of that he had. I was under the impression that he had a little -money, that he had saved a little money. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever sell punchboards in Texas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I think you indicated to the FBI that Gimpel is dead? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That is what I heard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you hear that he died? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. Jack Ruby called me and told me that he -had died, but I don’t know how long ago that was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he die here in Dallas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. I believe he said he died in Oklahoma. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you have had a chance to sit here, Mrs. Nichols, do you -recall any better as to when it was that Gimpel died? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. It is since I started going with Jack Ruby, and it was -several years ago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you still going with Jack Ruby at the time he died? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I was not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack Ruby, how often did Jack see -Mr. Gimpel? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was usually, he helped Jack around the -nightclub, the Silver Spur and the Vegas Club, and I used to see him -when we would go in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of help would he give? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he just would sort of manage it, see that -everything was going all right. I think I had seen him use the cash -register. Just anything that was needed to be done around there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did Jack pay him for what he did? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you mentioned in your interview with the FBI -that Jack was friendly with a man named Rocky Robinson. Do you remember -that name? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see Rocky Robinson but about twice, and then -it was when we would be some place and he would be; we would run into -him. I never did see him with Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you indicated to the Bureau that you thought that -Jack sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have also testified that you thought he sold the -Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, now, he sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel -first, right after he sold or right after he lost the Bob Wills Ranch -House. He sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel, and he went back to -Chicago and stayed 6 weeks, and then he came back and took over the -Silver Spur again from Martin Gimpel, and then it was later on he sold -the club to Rocky Robinson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Why did Jack come back from Chicago? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he told me that he liked Dallas. He wanted to stay -here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I presume when he left, did he intend to stay in -Chicago permanently? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I think that he did plan to stay in Chicago permanently -when he left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened in Chicago that made him change his mind -after he had been there for 6 weeks? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was because Martin Gimpel didn’t want to run -the Silver Spur and Jack had a chance to buy it back, and he came back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that Jack actually sold the Silver -Spur to Martin Gimpel? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he told me that he did. I don’t know what the -consideration was. He didn’t tell me how much. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Rocky Robinson still in town? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Rocky been a friend of Jack’s before he sold the -Silver Spur to Mr. Robinson? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he become a friend of Jack’s after Jack sold the -Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I never did see Rocky Robinson but on -about two occasions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I believe you told the FBI that you had met Jack’s -father? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet Mr. Rubinstein? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Where? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack picked me up after I left the office and took me by -to meet his father one evening. That was the only time I ever saw his -father. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the father happen to be in Dallas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he and one of Jack’s sisters were visiting Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack sold the Silver Spur, did he also at the time he -sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson, own the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In late 1958 and on up to the time you stopped seeing him -in 1959 or 1960, did Jack own the Vegas Club? - -Did Jack own any club in addition to the Vegas Club during this 1-year -period prior to the time you stopped seeing Jack? Did he operate any -clubs besides the Vegas Club in that year? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In that year before you stopped seeing him, did Jack ever -discuss selling the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember him ever discussing selling the Vegas -Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that Jack was making a profit -off the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose during the time that you were dating Jack, you -met most of his friends? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack introduced me to a lot of people while I was going -with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a man by the name of Dewey Groom? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I knew him slightly. I met him. He was a bandleader -at Jack’s Silver Spur for a while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After Jack closed the Silver Spur, did Jack continue to -see him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him after that. I don’t know whether Jack -did or not. Jack did see most of the nightclubs; he went around to most -of the clubs and he probably did see Dewey Groom. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ralph Paul? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, when did Jack first become friendly -with Ralph Paul? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t remember. Let’s see; I don’t remember -whether—I just can’t remember exactly when I first knew Ralph Paul. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Ralph Paul when you first started -dating Jack? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I believe I went with him for several years before -I ever heard of Ralph Paul or met him. I just don’t remember when I -met Ralph Paul. I was trying to think whether I remembered him before -Jack went back to Chicago. I believe I met him before he went back to -Chicago in 1952. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any business connections with Jack at that -time? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack had mentioned that Ralph Paul had loaned him money. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it, as you understand it, that Ralph first loaned -Jack money? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember exactly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Paul ever have an interest in the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he had mentioned Gordon McLendon to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack, how often did Jack contact Mr. -Paul? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know how often he contacted him. I would -see him around the club quite frequently. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say that Mr. Paul, during the period you were -dating Jack, was one of the more frequent visitors to the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than the lending of money by Paul to Jack, do you -know of any other business relationship that Ralph Paul and Jack Ruby -had with each other? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack, did you know George Senator? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I never did know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack Ruby was a friend of Gordon McLendon? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he mentioned Gordon McLendon to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first hear Jack mention Gordon McLendon? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I would say several years before we -quit going together, before 1959, maybe 3 or 4 years. I can’t remember -when he first mentioned him to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack indicate to you about his acquaintanceship -with Mr. McLendon? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that he mentioned that Gordon McLendon had -given him some advertising time on his radio station. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you understand it was free advertising time? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t say whether it was. I don’t recall him saying -whether he paid for it or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know McLendon any way other than a business way? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he went out with him socially or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. McLendon ever visit the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Jack ever mention the name of a man Stanley -Kaufman? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack know Mr. Kaufman when you began dating him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he did. I never did hear him mention him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of Jack’s acquaintanceship with Mr. -Kaufman? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was Jack’s lawyer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack a social friend of his? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. Well, I don’t know whether he ever went to -his home or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Kaufman visit the Vegas Club from time to time? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember ever seeing him in the Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tom Howard? Did Jack ever mention Tom Howard as -an acquaintance? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He had mentioned Tom Howard, but I had never seen—as far -as I know, they were not friends. I never did see them together. - -I never did see Tom Howard in the club. But I have worked for Tom -Howard when I first started working for attorneys, and I knew that I -had known Tom Howard because I worked for him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you work for Mr. Howard? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Right after I got my divorce in 1947, for a short time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then before you went to work for your present employer? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That’s right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have been employed continuously with your present -employer? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Since; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for Mr. Howard? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. About 6 months. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention Ed Pullman? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Who? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention the name of Frank Fisher? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention the name of Alex Gruber? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lawrence Meyers? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike Shore? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Buddy Heard? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during the time that you were dating Jack, other -than the band that he would hire for his club, did Jack have business -contacts with the entertainment world? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Business contacts? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With the entertainment world? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether I understand. You mean personal, -individual, or bands? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; was it a regular practice of his to hire entertainers -other than the band to play at the Vegas Club? Singers and comedians or -dancers? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t hire any. He had a little colored boy one -time who used to put on a floor show out at the Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Little Daddy Nelson? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the only entertainer that you knew of that Jack -was connected with while you knew him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I believe you indicated to the FBI that Mr. Ruby was -very attached to his mother. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was devoted to his mother. He told me how—he had -remarked how much her death had hurt him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether he was more or less devoted -to his mother than to his father? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. He seemed to be devoted to his father, too. He seemed -to be quite interested in his father’s welfare. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention to you in connection with his mother -that his mother had been a source of many problems to the family? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he had mentioned that she had been in an -institution; that she had a mental breakdown. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude about that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t say much about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any hostility toward her on account of it? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you how he happened to change his name -from Rubenstein to Ruby? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. He had already changed his name when I first knew -him, and he never did tell me how he happened to do it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know that Jack had been associated with his brother -Earl and his brother Sam in a business in Chicago? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He told me that he had. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you how he happened to leave that -business and come to Dallas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He told me that he came down here because his sister had -a nightclub here and she was having difficulty because business was -not going. He came down here to see if he couldn’t help her with the -nightclub business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever indicate anything about his relationship with -Sam and Earl in Earl Products? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He was a partner, I understood, in that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever indicate that he was dissatisfied in any way -with that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about how close he was or friendly he -was with his brothers? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I got the impression that he was close to his -brothers, his whole family. He seemed to be close to the whole family. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was very upset when his brothers Earl and Sam -broke up their partnership, and he went up there to try to help settle -their differences, and he just—I always got the impression that he was -close to his family. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you mentioned a man by the name of Ned Weisbrod. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As a person whom you thought was friendly with Jack, close -to him in one way or another. When did you first meet Mr. Weisbrod? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe that I met him soon after I met Jack. I would -say probably in 1950. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did they continue, Weisbrod, to be friendly with -Jack? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I had not seen him in—when I first knew Jack, he had the -Silver Spur, and I used to see Ned in there. - -And after he took over the Vegas, I used to see him out there until -about—I think it was about the last 2 or 3 years I had not seen Ned in -there. And the same thing with this Sam; that they used to be together -a lot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Lassen? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I had not seen either one of them in the Vegas Club -for, I would say, 2 years anyway before 1959, when we stopped going -together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate why they stopped coming around? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any sort of quarrel that Jack had with them? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack seem to have any business relationship with -Weisbrod and Lassen? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were Weisbrod and Lassen more friendly with Jack than -Ralph Paul? Did you see them around more often than you saw Ralph Paul? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also mention Adrian High as a person who was -friendly with Jack. And I believe, if my understanding is correct, that -High, Weisbrod, Lassen, and Ruby were sort of mutual friends? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether Adrian was a friend of Ned and Sam -or not. I have not seen Adrian High in, oh, since about, I would say -about 1956. I had not seen him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Weisbrod and Lassen are still in Dallas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you knew they were in Dallas? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I haven’t seen them since—the only place I ever saw them -was at the Vegas Club, and it’s been several years before I quit going -with Jack that I had seen them in there. At least 2 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of person that, if he had problems with -somebody or a dispute with somebody, that he would continue to talk -about it for some time after it occurred? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t talk to me about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know some people, when they have a problem, they just -have to talk and talk about it until it seems to get out of their -system. Did Jack seem to be that kind of a person? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t talk to me about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever see Jack getting into any fights with -anybody? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him hit anybody? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him hit anyone. I know that he had had -trouble in the club. I would hear about it. But I never did see him. I -have seen him put people out of the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear of his fighting with somebody socially, in a -social quarrel? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The only time you know of his fighting or hitting somebody -was in connection with his acting as a bouncer for the club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him, but I heard of it. I know that he -had a finger—he was putting a man out of his club and a man bit his -finger and he had to have it amputated, but I was not there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you dated Jack, how much money was he accustomed to -carrying with him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. I never did ask him and he never did tell -me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack carry a gun with him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I have seen him with a gun when he would have his -moneybag for deposit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his practice? You have seen him take money out of -the club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what was his practice? Would he have the gun at the -club, or where would he keep the gun? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he had it at the club or whether he -carried it in his pocket. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him carry it in his pocket? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did ask him if he had a gun in his pocket, and -he never did tell me. I never did see him take it out of his pocket. -When we would go by the club, he would pick up the money and I would be -sitting at a table, and I don’t know when he got the gun, whether he -got it out of his pocket or whether he kept it at the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you see the gun; on the table or where? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I just saw it with the moneybag, and we would walk -out to the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He would carry it in his moneybag? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t remember ever seeing it in the moneybag, -but he used to put it on the seat with the moneybag. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he ever lock the money up in the trunk of his car? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him do that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what did he use to do with his money after he took it -out of the club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I thought he put it in a night depository. He would -take me home first, and I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You also indicated to the FBI that Jack was a gambler, -liked to gamble? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him gamble, but he told me that -he—several times that he had gone back to the Artists Club and played -cards after he took me home. I never did see Jack gamble. He never -talked to me about that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who the owner was of the Artists Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know who owned it. A man by the name of Harris -was managing it. I think it was a musicians’ union. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of gambling would they have at the Artists Club? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see them gambling there, but I imagine it was -cards, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a—— - -Mrs. NICHOLS. They served food there, and we have gone up there late to -get something to eat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a back room of some sort where they gambled? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. I never did see them gambling there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Jack gambled with there? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say he would go there? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he only mentioned that to me for a short period of -time. I would say 3 or 4 months that he mentioned to me that he would -go up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man by the name of Johnny Ross? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have seen him in the Vegas Club a few times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you described him as a gambler? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack told me that he was a gambler. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack ever gambled with him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack never did mention. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of gambling did Johnny Ross do? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any business association with Johnny Ross? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Jack called you on the day the President was killed? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That’s right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had it been before then that you had last seen -Jack? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him on the street one time in the spring of -1963 I didn’t talk to him. He was driving the car and I was walking. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the time that you saw him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. And before that, it had been over a year. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you talked to him on the telephone? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he had not called me in over a year. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you told Mr. Sayres on the 18th of January that you -remembered that Jack had called you at about 2 o’clock on the 22d. How -did you happen to remember that at that time? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He called me sometime between 1 and 2, while I was out -for lunch and left his number for me to call him. And I called him back -as soon after 2, about 10 minutes after 2. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that Jack had called? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I go to lunch from 1 to 2 all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first time that you talked with Mr. Sayres, you -didn’t remember apparently that Jack had called you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you remember at that time? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he didn’t ask me about it and I didn’t think about -the importance of it until this investigation or for the defense -attorney asked me about that, if Jack had called me on that day, and I -remembered. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this investigator or one of Jack’s lawyers suggest -that you ought to call the FBI and let them know about this? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. I got to thinking about it myself and I thought I -wanted to keep the record straight. I wanted to let the FBI know it, -too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the investigator indicate to you that you might -testify for Jack at the trial? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, no; he didn’t say. He didn’t tell me whether he -thought they would use me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea that you might? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, after I talked, after the investigator, contacted -me, I was afraid that I might be called. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever called? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t attach the importance to the telephone call at -the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you testify at the trial? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you willing to testify? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t want to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your reaction when you got this telephone call -from Jack shortly after the President had been shot? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was just, I was surprised when he—after the -President had been shot? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that Jack had called you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I was surprised. We hadn’t been seeing each other -and I didn’t expect to ever hear from him again, and I was—he seemed to -be upset about the President’s assassination. I think everyone else was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think Jack called you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know why he called me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever question his attorney about that? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I haven’t talked to—never did talk to his attorney. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked with Jack since then? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or any members of his family? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister-in-law has called me twice since that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be his sister-in-law? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister-in-law, Sam’s wife. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever ask her why Jack called you that day? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t ask her why. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever indicate to you why he called you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with Jack, when you called him back at -around about 2:15 or whenever it was, did you indicate to Jack that you -were surprised to hear from him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t say anything to him about that, being -surprised. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI reports here, Mr. Sayres’ report in his interview -of January 18, that Ruby was apparently calling to tell you what a -terrible thing he thought it was that President Kennedy had been -assassinated. Was there some question as to what Ruby really, why he -really was calling? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was just surprised to hear from him. I don’t know -why he called me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what he said to you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the exact words, but the only thing, he -just talked about what a terrible thing the assassination was. It was a -very short, conversation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular thing he said? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or words that he used? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t remember the words, the exact words that he -used. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be able to tell me if he used the word, -“terrible,” there? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he used the word, “terrible,” -or not. But generally it was just, he was just upset about the -assassination. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you at all about the effect that the -assassination would have on his business? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything particularly about President Kennedy? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was talking about the assassination of President -Kennedy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any, did he say anything about what effect it -would have on the city of Dallas, the assassination? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t recall him saying that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you have a regular lunch hour? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular lunch hour? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1 to 2. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time of the second telephone call -that Jack made to you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. In the evening? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it wasn’t late in the evening, and I had finished -dinner and had my dishes washed and I was reading the paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time do you usually eat dinner? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I eat about 6. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody living with you at home? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I live alone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long does it usually take you to eat dinner? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I eat very slow in the evening. I usually listen to -music and I usually spend about 30 minutes, I would say. I take my time -and drink coffee and I sit at the table. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you when he called you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he just was talking again about the assassination, -and he told me at that time that he was going to the synagogue. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about the assassination on the second -occasion? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, what a terrible thing it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, weren’t you again surprised that he should call you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, yes; I was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t ask him why he called me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate your surprise to him in any way? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t indicate it, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he would like to see you sometime? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No, he never; I can’t recall him asking how I had been or -anything personal. He didn’t say anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you how you felt about the assassination? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I told him I thought it was terrible, too, and I -was quite upset about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you for any advice of any sort? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t think of any reason why Jack should have called -you? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time that he called you, did you have any -indication of where he was calling from? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have no idea where he was calling from. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any voices in the background? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Television set on? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t remember hearing any noise. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you how soon he was going to the synagogue? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t tell me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you which synagogue he was going to? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he did. I assumed it was Shearith Israel -because that is where he went. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you dated Jack, did Jack have any dogs? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. He got his dog shortly before we stopped going together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But up until then, he had never owned a dog? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to buy the dog? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I think the first dog was given to him by someone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who gave it to him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No, I don’t know whether he told me or not. Or whether it -was anyone that I know. I just remembered where he got the dog, and it -was killed. It was run over a short while after he got it, so he got -another one right after that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of dog was given to him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a dachshund. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the next dog that he got also a dachshund? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Up until the time that his dog was given to him, had he -expressed any interests in dogs? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister had a little dog that he—I don’t know whether -he—I believe it seemed like he had taken care of it some for her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Eva Grant? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; she had a dog. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man by the name of Abe Kleinman? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I believe he was a CPA or a bookkeeper. I believe he -kept Jack’s books, for a period of time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Floyd Turman, do you know him? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any police officers with whom Jack was -friendly? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have seen police officers out there in the club, -but I never knew one in particular. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of the women that he was friendly with -besides yourself? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know who else he dated. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about women that he saw in a business connection? Did -you see any women in the business? Did he see any women in a business -connection? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I don’t know of any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that we haven’t talked -about here today that you haven’t already told the FBI, that you think -would be of importance to the Commission? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t think of anything that would be of importance. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if, as time passes here, and if anything -does come to your attention which you think might be helpful to us, if -you would contact somebody in the Commission or contact the FBI or the -Secret Service and let them know? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I will be glad to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We also ask you, other than the interviews that Mr. Sayres -had with you, have you been interviewed by any member of this staff? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. Of this staff? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to having your deposition taken here, did you and I -have any interview? - -Mrs. NICHOLS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have any more questions to ask you. - -I want to thank you for coming here and taking all this time to do it, -and I realize that you are a working woman and it is an inconvenience -to you. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. That is quite all right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was quite nice of you to spend all of this time. - -Mrs. NICHOLS. I am glad to help in any way I can. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT CARL PATTERSON - -The testimony of Robert Carl Patterson was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April -14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin, and -I am on the Advisory Staff of the General Counsel’s office of the -President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President -Kennedy. - -This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive Order from -President Johnson which was issued on November 30, 1963, and also by -virtue of a Joint Resolution from Congress, No. 137. - -As a result of these two official Acts, the Commission has been given -authority to put forth its own rules and regulations to accomplish the -purpose of the investigation which we have been asked to conduct, and -under these regulations I have been given authority to come here and -take your deposition, Mr. Patterson. - -I want to explain to you a little bit about what the purpose of the -investigation is. The Commission has been asked to investigate, -evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts -surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent -murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -We have asked you to come here this particular day, Mr. Patterson, -because we understand that you have had some acquaintanceship with Jack -Ruby. However, we are interested in anything that you might be able -to tell about the assassination of the President or anything that you -might think might be relevant to that. - -We have a certain set of procedures that we follow in conducting these -depositions and in asking people to come here. I presume you got a -letter, did you not, from the Commission? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Signed by Mr. Rankin? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I think it was. I have it in my pocket. That’s -right. (Referring to letter.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the letter? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Saturday, it was I got it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now also under the rules of the Commission I might explain -to you that anybody who desires to appear here with an attorney has the -right to do so, and we encourage people to do it. I notice that you are -not here with an attorney, and I take it it is because you don’t have -any desire to have one. However, if for any reason you think that you -would want an attorney, or as this interview progresses you think you -should want to be represented by an attorney, please feel free to tell -me about it and we will postpone matters and continue the deposition -at a later date. I presume by the fact that you are here without an -attorney, that you don’t desire to have anybody represent you? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I don’t think I would need an attorney, because -I don’t think—I don’t know it was that important, so far as I was -concerned. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t see any reason why you should have one -either, but I want to tell you this so that you understand that you do -have a right to have an attorney, and I hope that if for any reason -that you think you want to be represented, feel free to state that. - -Do you have any particular questions that you want to ask me about the -deposition that is about to begin before I ask you to be sworn? Feel -free to ask anything that comes to your mind, because I realize this is -an unusual experience for everybody who appears here. - -Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t believe so other than how long? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long will it take? I don’t think it will take very -long. I want to ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer -the oath. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Carl Patterson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Patterson? - -Mr. PATTERSON. 902 East Waco Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born? - -Mr. PATTERSON. March 13, 1944. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you presently employed? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? - -Mr. PATTERSON. The Beachcomber. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place is that? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It is a night club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do at the Beachcomber? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Entertain. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Musician and singer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What instruments do you play? - -Mr. PATTERSON. My major instrument is the guitar. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you sing any particular kind of songs? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I do mostly rhythm and blues and a few classicals. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been an entertainer? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 5 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a high school graduate? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I’m in college. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to college? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are attending college right now? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you attending college? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Arlington State. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the Dallas area? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It is in Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What are you majoring in? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Music. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were interviewed sometime in December by an agent of -the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Do you recall that interview? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time you indicated that you had worked on some -occasions for Eva Grant, Ruby’s sister? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first work for Eva Grant? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know the exact date. In fact, I can’t even -recall the month, but it was, I guess you could say, the last of the -summer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This summer, 1963, was the first time? - -Mr. PATTERSON. 1963; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So the first time you worked for Eva Grant would have been -in the summer of 1963? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately. As far as I can recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would you receive for a one night engagement with -Mrs. Grant? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the pay varied from—I just played a one hour show, -say, about 10 or 15 minutes with a saxophone player. That is myself and -my band, and I would say the average pay I received was $8 for these 10 -or 15 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sometimes receive more and sometimes receive -less? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the least you received? - -Mr. PATTERSON. $4.00. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the most that you received? - -Mr. PATTERSON. $10.00. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you play there? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know for sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you always appear with your saxophone player? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Eighty percent of the time I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they pay the saxophone player separately? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they sometimes pay you? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would pay the saxophone player? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are nodding yes? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever consult with Jack Ruby or with Eva Grant -about playing at Jack’s Carousel Club? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. It was my understanding that he had different type -music there than what I played. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How were you known to the Rubys; by what name? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Mrs. Grant called me Bobby Patterson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to talk with Jack Ruby? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, I talked with him several times about playing. He -wanted me to start playing in the Vegas, and we talked about salary and -hours and so forth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I am going to hand you what I have marked -Exhibit 5357, which is a photograph of a page out of that notebook, and -I have marked this photograph, Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Exhibit -5357, Robert C. Patterson, and I signed my name to it. Previously this -same photograph has been marked as Crafard Exhibit No. 5225, and as -Armstrong Exhibit No. 5305-E. - -I want to hand you this and ask you to look at the notations on that -notebook. If you can’t read them, indicate to me that you can’t and I -will try to read them for you. - -Mr. PATTERSON. I see Billy Brook. I can’t make out the second line. -Bobby Patterson, six something, special friend, and then a ten and two. -No, and quotation marks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to keep your voice up so she can hear you. - -Mr. PATTERSON. Three ... I can’t make out that word—I can’t make out -the next word, and 2409 Maple. LA 6-7568 for Robert Patterson—no, -Robert is all. - -Three—now I can’t make out the next—six eight three seven four nine -thousand eight, oh six, fifty by a hundred and ninety-two. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those notations shown in that -photograph as having anything to do with you? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It would be my guess that these were some notations of -where he paid somebody, somebody paid us for playing one night, because -I think this Billy Brook is a singer. I remember Billy Brook that used -to sing over at the Vegas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he sing there while you also entertained there? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, a few times he was there. None of this other, I -don’t know what that could be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If that notation Bobby Patterson and friends had to do -with you, who would the friend be? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Simpson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the saxophone player? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a rate that was paid, six dollars to you and the -additional four dollars to Simpson? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It could have been. We usually received the same pay. If -I got $5, he usually received $5. I don’t ever recall making any more -than he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is as much as you can remember about that? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Has anything come to your attention in connection with -Jack Ruby or in connection with any of the work you have done for Jack -or his sister, Mrs. Grant, that you think would be of value to the -Commission? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, I can’t recall anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you actually talk with Jack Ruby? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn’t pinpoint it to a certain number of times, but -I can approximate. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us your best estimate? - -Mr. PATTERSON. You mean on the phone and in person? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. PATTERSON. About 15 times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of these times would have been in person? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Not 10 times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the times that you met him in person at the Vegas -Club? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him besides at the Vegas Club? - -Mr. PATTERSON. He came to my house one night to talk to my mother about -me playing for him, and him taking over as my manager and promoting a -record for me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Some time in the first of November, something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of record was he interested in promoting? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Just a rock ’n roll record that he wanted to promote for -me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you already cut the record? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I already record for another company and he said he had -some connections with a better record company that he could, you know, -he wanted me to record some new records. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you record for? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Future. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that office located? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Arkansas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Arkansas? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have to go up to Arkansas to cut the record? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, we cut here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many records have you cut for Future? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Two. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Jack about promoting a particular -song? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Not a particular song. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But about promoting you? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you and what did you say to him? - -Mr. PATTERSON. He said he had connections with Reprise. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. R-e-p-r-i-s-e? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. It is pronounced Reprise, with which Frank Sinatra -has something to do with, and never did say what Frank Sinatra had to -do with it, but he said he knew some people in this line that he would -have no trouble getting a record promoted and distributed nationally. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I told him if he could get this done, fine, I -would consider recording for him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make an effort to have that recording done? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. He was trying to get me to play in the Vegas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the Vegas or the Carousel? - -Mr. PATTERSON. In the Vegas. And I never did think too much about the -recording, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time he talked to you about the recording, had you -ever played at the Vegas? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what do you mean he was trying to get you to play -there? - -Mr. PATTERSON. The band he had was leaving, quitting, had quit already, -I would say, and they had been there a long time, for a number of -years, and they quit. And he wanted my band to start playing there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you feel about playing at the Vegas? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I didn’t really want to because the pay was too -low and the hours were too long. But he propositioned me to cut the -number of hours because I was going to college, and the other saxophone -player was too going to college, and the other two guys worked. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So did you finally agree to play at the Vegas with your -band? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you talked to him about playing at -the Vegas? - -Mr. PATTERSON. About—I don’t know the exact—it was one Sunday evening, -I would say, approximately two weeks before the incident. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the assassination of the President? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Could have been a week and a half or a week anyway in -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time Jack didn’t have a band playing at the Vegas? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have a band? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. He had hired one band and one band had quit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He hired another one? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the plan was that he would have had your band replace -the one that was already playing there? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack Ruby any place except at your -house and the Vegas Club? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he came out to hear us. We were playing at SMU -college and he came out to hear the band. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? - -Mr. PATTERSON. This was the same Sunday that I talked to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other places that you talked to him? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I had an interview on the radio one night at the -Circle Bowl. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Circle Bowl; bowling alley. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station? - -Mr. PATTERSON. KBOX. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be interviewed there? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night I met Jack Ruby. I was playing at -the Vegas. I did the show, and Mrs. Grant called me over and introduced -me to him, and he said, “I like the way you play. Do you want to talk -on the radio?” So I said, “Sure.” So he said, “Follow me,” and me and -Robert Simpson followed him over to the Circle Bowl, and Jack West was -doing his night program and he interviewed me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night that I met him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the summer sometime, 1963? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, I didn’t know him, but I would say a month or month -and a half at the most prior to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But he called or spoke to you either in person or on the -telephone about 15 times in that month or month and a half? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I mean in the same day and stuff like that, you -know, on different occasions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on any of these occasions that you saw him in person, -did he have anybody else with him? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. The night I met him, he had somebody else with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. I met him at the Vegas Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he have with him? - -Mr. PATTERSON. He introduced me to a guy that was entertaining at the -Carousel, Billy DeMar. I think that is the last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him that night? - -Mr. PATTERSON. A little short guy. I don’t know his name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a Negro boy or a white one? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was just—he was an old man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old a man would you say he was? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I would say he was in his late forties. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall was he? - -Mr. PATTERSON. About my size, about 5’2”. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his build, heavy, medium or thin man? - -Mr. PATTERSON. For his size, he was kind of fat. Stomach went like that -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he balding, or did he have all of his hair? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was balding. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a business associate of Jack Ruby’s? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn’t tell. I didn’t ride in the same car with him -or nothing. I just saw him with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This other fellow didn’t do any of the talking? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, we were talking about promoting the record and he -said, “Jack will put you over, don’t worry.” - -He says, “If he likes you, he likes you, and if he don’t like you, he -don’t like you.” I remember him saying that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see this man again? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, I never did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any other people with Jack? - -Mr. PATTERSON. His roommate, George. I don’t remember his last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet George? - -Mr. PATTERSON. At their apartment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go up to Jack’s apartment? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it was the same night that he came over to SMU to -listen at us, and he said, “What are you fixing to do?” - -I said, “I am going home.” It was on a Sunday after we got through -playing and he said, “Why don’t you come by and let’s discuss, you -know, the pay that I would pay you and the hours and so forth.” So he -didn’t live too far from my house, and we stopped by there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You and your trumpet player? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, just me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack—was Senator with Jack at SMU? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Who? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George, was he with Jack? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you got to Jack’s apartment, the roommate was -there, George? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there? - -Mr. PATTERSON. The dog, and another woman and a man came in. I had seen -her over to the club working. I guess she was related to him in some -way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You had seen her at the Vegas Club? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been Mrs. Grant? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the night did this man and woman come in? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I guess it was around 8 o’clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the apartment that night? - -Mr. PATTERSON. About 20 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything unusual about the apartment? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. Just an apartment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the only time you ever saw George? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the assassination of the President was it -that you went to Jack’s apartment? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 2 weeks or 2½, something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your recollection that this was a Sunday? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any record at home from which you could -determine when that was? Any record of being paid at SMU which would -indicate when it was? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The man who came into the apartment that Sunday night with -the woman, how old a man did he appear to be? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t recall, but I would say he was in his middle -thirties or maybe 40. I didn’t pay that much attention, because I don’t -think I ever seen him before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a Jewish man? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know. I don’t think I ever heard him talk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall do you recall him being? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Maybe 5’ 11”, something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his build, fat, medium, thin? - -Mr. PATTERSON. He was fairly thin, I think. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the only occasion that you were ever in Jack’s -apartment? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him any other places? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of the people who worked at the -Carousel Club outside of Billy DeMar? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that you could tell us -about Jack Ruby, about your meetings with him or acquaintanceship with -him? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, like I say, I hadn’t known him but about a month -and a half. Maybe a month. It might have been 3 weeks prior to this -incident, and I didn’t know him that well, but he was trying to get us -to play over there, because a band he had had for so long had left, and -the one he had wasn’t doing as good a job as he felt they should, and -having a lot of trouble. Actually, my business dealings with Jack were -with Mrs. Grant, and he came in one night while I was performing and -she called me over and introduced me to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I want to hand you a copy of a report that -the FBI made after the interview with you on December 16, 1963. It is a -copy of an interview report made by Special Agent James E. Garris, FBI, -and pertains to an interview with you on the 16th of December 1963. - -I don’t know if you had a chance to read it, but, if you would, read -it over and tell me if there are any additions or corrections that you -would make to that other than what you have already told me here today, -and also, if you would, indicate to me if that is a true and accurate -report of the interview that you had with Mr. Garris? [Document marked -Patterson Exhibit No. 5358.] - -Mr. PATTERSON. This part where it says intermittently for several -years, I wouldn’t say it was several years. More like a year, maybe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated to me that the first time you ever -worked for Eva Grant was back in the summer of 1963? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That wouldn’t even be a year. Is there something that -makes you think that you worked for or knew her even before then? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Sure. All the bands, more or less. I mean, knew of the -place, you know, because I had a friend, Joe Johnson was playing there, -and occasionally we would stop by and sit in, play a few numbers, so -therefore—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. PATTERSON. I guess that is what I meant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would qualify the statement which reads as -follows: - -“He has worked for Eva Grant, Jack Ruby’s sister, at the Vegas Club in -Dallas intermittently for several years as a guitar player and singer.” - -You would state instead that for maybe a year before this interview on -December 16, you had visited the Vegas Club occasionally to see your -friend Joe Johnson, and that on those occasions you had sat in with Joe -Johnson’s band? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But that you never actually began to work there for money -until the summer of 1963? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I couldn’t pinpoint it whether it was the summer, -beginning or end of the summer, really. I don’t actually recall. I -would have to go back and get—she put a few advertisements in the paper -with my name, and I can go back and look at them. I don’t remember, I -played so many places. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you belong to any musicians’ union? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I did once. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of any union when you were playing for -Eva Grant at the Vegas Club? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any agent at the time you were playing for -Eva Grant at the Vegas Club? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you said already that you don’t have anything more -that you could add, and I take it that there is nothing more that you -would change in this interview report, is that correct? Or would you -make some more changes in the interview report other than what we have -already discussed today? - -Mr. PATTERSON. About Jack Ruby? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, or about anything that appears in this interview -report. You hesitate like you think there are some other things you -could tell us. Let me encourage you to come forward and tell us -everything that you do know. - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, this is all I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I would like to ask if you in the future, or if you -should remember anything or anything should come to your attention -which could be of any assistance to the Commission, please get in -touch with the Commission or, if it would probably be easier to get in -touch with the FBI or Secret Service, let me know what it is. - -I appreciate your coming out here this afternoon and speaking with us. -You have had to wait around a long time to get here, and I certainly -want to apologize for inconveniencing you and tell you again that we -appreciate very much the time you have given us, and the help you have -provided here, and it’s been very nice meeting you. - -Mr. PATTERSON. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL - -The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 8:03 p.m., on April 15, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant -counsel of the President’s Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul. - -Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff -of the General Counsel of President Johnson’s Commission to investigate -the death of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee -Harvey Oswald. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, issued by the President’s Commission, the Joint -Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by -Congress in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, -I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you, Mr. Paul. I -state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts related to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry tonight -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about -Jack Ruby and his associates, and his business and social friends -and so forth. Now, I believe you have appeared here as a result of a -letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the -Commission, advising that we would be here and requesting that you -appear. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days ago? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up and take the oath, please? Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Paul, will you state your name for the record, please? - -Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Mr. Paul? - -Mr. PAUL. I will be 65 this December. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? - -Mr. PAUL. Right now I live with some friends—I’m building a house in -Arlington, 1602 Browning Drive. - -Mr. HUBERT. The letter of request to appear was addressed to the -correct place? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; both places. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you are the owner or manager, and that is -one of the things we want to clarify, of the Bull Pen? - -Mr. PAUL. I am the owner. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are the owner? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the corporation? - -Mr. PAUL. That is Bappo [spelling] B-a-p-p-o. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Bappo, Inc., isn’t it? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is a closely held corporation, I take it? - -Mr. PAUL. Well—— - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean, do you own all the stock? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, the corporation owns the business and you -manage the business? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other occupation at the present time? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you lived in Dallas? - -Mr. PAUL. In Dallas—itself? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s put it in the Dallas area, first. I -mean—Dallas-Fort Worth area. - -Mr. PAUL. Okay—I came in December 1947. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live prior to that time? - -Mr. PAUL. New York, New York City. - -Mr. HUBERT. In New York City? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think that you originally are an immigrant, is that -correct? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That information, I believe is information in the statement -you have given. - -Mr. PAUL. That’s correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what it was that caused you to come to Texas -from New York? - -Mr. PAUL. I was connected with some show people and they came down here -and told me how great Texas was, and I came down, and in fact I came -down and leased the club, leased the Sky Club at first, and we stayed -there a month and then we bought it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Leased which one? - -Mr. PAUL. The Sky Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1947? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s actually in 1948, I mean, I came to Dallas 2 days -before New Years or something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Two days before New Years in 1947, so it’s practically 1948? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connections here when you came? - -Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t know anybody here. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say “we”, you mean you and your wife? - -Mr. PAUL. No—that entertainer and her husband brought me down here. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were their names? - -Mr. PAUL. Joe Bonds and Dale Belmont—it’s also in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were husband and wife? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And they had been here before? - -Mr. PAUL. They had been here before. - -Mr. HUBERT. And they interested you in coming into this area? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave all your business and social connections in -New York? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you married? - -Mr. PAUL. No; not at that time I came down from New York. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have been married since? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are not married at all? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never have been married? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And is your wife dead or are you divorced from her? - -Mr. PAUL. We got divorced in 1931. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have never remarried? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you supposed to supply capital to the venture? - -Mr. PAUL. What venture? - -Mr. HUBERT. With Joe Bonds? - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was in a very short period after arriving -here you got interested in a place called the Sky Club? - -Mr. PAUL. No; they interested me to come down here—they interested me -to come down here and rent the Sky Club from a man called Satterwhite, -and after we stayed there a month, he decided to sell it to us and then -is when we bought it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who put up the capital? - -Mr. PAUL. We put up some capital—the rest of it was by notes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the corporation formed then? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, it was owned by you and Bonds? - -Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul and Joe Bonds. - -Mr. HUBERT. Half and half? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that venture last? - -Mr. PAUL. I sold out my interest in May of 1948. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, it lasted a very short period of time? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell it to? - -Mr. PAUL. I sold it to a man from Miami that came up here looking for -business—I can’t think of his name—Rosenheim. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name? - -Mr. PAUL. I think it’s some place in this—that is, his first name is. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s all right, we will get to that. What sort of place -was the Sky Club—what was it? - -Mr. PAUL. A nightclub. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located? - -Mr. PAUL. On the Fort Worth Cutoff. I think the address was six -something Fort Worth Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. What venture did you go into after that? - -Mr. PAUL. I opened up a bar in downtown Dallas called the Blue Bonnet, -underneath the Blue Bonnet Hotel. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you rent the premises there and operate the bar -yourself? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any partners in that? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you maintain that occupation? - -Mr. PAUL. I maintained it close to 5 years. I opened it in November and -sold it 5 years later in September. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you would have opened it in November 1948? - -Mr. PAUL. Correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you would have sold it? - -Mr. PAUL. In September 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. 1953? - -Mr. PAUL. No; 1953—that’s correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do after 1953? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t do nothing for several months and then I and -Chris Semos opened up the Miramar Restaurant on Fort Worth Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was a partnership too? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; that was a partnership. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, this Chris Semos, did he put up the money? - -Mr. PAUL. We both put up some money and the rest was notes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was the name of that? - -Mr. PAUL. Miramar Restaurant. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was a restaurant? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And nightclub, was it? - -Mr. PAUL. No, just a restaurant and drive-in. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that? - -Mr. PAUL. Close to 3 years—about 3 years less 2 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you operated that until, say, July of—— - -Mr. PAUL. No; I operated that until February. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of what year? - -Mr. PAUL. Of 1957. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell that, then? - -Mr. PAUL. I sold it to Chris Semos. - -Mr. HUBERT. You sold the whole thing to him? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you take a note from him? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in your income tax returns for some later -years you show interest received from Chris Semos of about $250 a -month; is that interest on that note? - -Mr. PAUL. No; it’s $125 a month for seven years, that includes $100 a -month payments and $25 interest. - -Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon—that’s what I meant to say. - -Mr. PAUL. That’s $250 a year—and one time it was $250 because he -wouldn’t pay 2 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. The interest you show as received, I said $250 a month, I -meant to say it was $250 a year. - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right, $250 altogether, and one year he didn’t pay -full so it was only $250. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that loan paid out now? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, in February of 1957 you didn’t have any business -connections? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Sir? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. I went into partners with Jack Ruby’s brother, Sam, -and in a little ice cream place. We opened up April 25, 1957, and -closed it—we didn’t close, we gave the lease away so they wouldn’t -hold us responsible for the lease, and we lost some money because the -fixtures that we bought was more. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that? - -Mr. PAUL. May, June, and July. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just a few months? - -Mr. PAUL. We saw it didn’t make, so there was no use in wasting time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your next business venture then? - -Mr. PAUL. Next, I didn’t go in business, I was helping Jack Ruby in the -Vegas Club from August until the following year—May. - -Mr. HUBERT. August of what year? - -Mr. PAUL. August 1957, to May 1958. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were with Ruby, you say, at the Vegas Club? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; I just was helping him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean on a salary? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, no—it wasn’t really a salary. I helped him out on -Friday and Saturday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any compensation at all? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, the only compensation I received he owed me some money, -he paid me back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps at that point then we should go back to—so -that you may tell us when you first met Jack Ruby. - -Mr. PAUL. Like I said over here, it was one of these improvised -meetings that you meet somebody that comes over to you and introduces -himself. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was it, about; do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. 1958. - -Mr. HUBERT. In 1958? - -Mr. PAUL. I mean, in 1948. - -Mr. HUBERT. In 1948? - -Mr. PAUL. Those years fly back so fast, 1948. That’s the year I was up -to the Sky Club yet. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he simply came over and introduced himself to you? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; he says, “I’m Jack Ruby. I own the Silver Spur.” I don’t -think it was known as the Silver Spur, but I can’t recall the name -it was known then. It keeps on running in my mind that it wasn’t the -Silver Spur—it was another name, but I can’t remember it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it the Singapore? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s it. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was the Singapore? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he told you he was the owner of the Singapore? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that became the Silver Spur. - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business connections with Ruby at all -until he got to owe you some money? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, I’ll tell you the whole thing—the whole story. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that’s best—that’s the best way to do it. - -Mr. PAUL. Well, one day he came in with a friend of his—he’s now -deceased. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you could fix the time and place—as you go—it would be -helpful, and I know it’s a long time ago but perhaps we will have to -take an approximation. - -Mr. PAUL. Maybe it was 1949 or 1950 or 1951, I can’t remember those -years, and he asked me for a loan. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the friend’s name was? The one that he -came in with? - -Mr. PAUL. He’s now deceased, but it was Marty Gimpel. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the two of them came to you? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And wanted to borrow some money? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much was it they wanted to borrow? - -Mr. PAUL. $2,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you lend it to them? - -Mr. PAUL. He said to me, “I’ve got a show, I want to buy the Bob Wills -Ranch House”—did you get this one in there any place—he said, “I’ve got -to show it,” and he says, “All I want to do is show them that I’ve got -the money and I’ll give it back to you the following day.” Well, not -that I knew the guy so much, but you know, you can’t turn people down -like that if he wants to pay me the next day, so I loaned him $2,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a note? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he was going to pay me back the next day. Well, the next -day didn’t come. Subsequently he roped me in for $3,700. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean—more? - -Mr. PAUL. With the $2,000—$3,700 altogether. - -Mr. HUBERT. Making $1,700 more? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, why don’t you just tell us in your own words just how -this relationship developed and so forth? - -Mr. PAUL. It’s silly but true, and when I tell it, it’s really funny. -The next time he comes he says, “They didn’t think it enough money -to show for the place, I’ve got to show them $3,000,” so I gave him -another $1,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would have been just a few days after? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes—that’s 2 days afterwards. Instead of the next day -coming—he came 2 days and he says, “This is it positively—I’ve just got -to show them the money.” Well, he didn’t come around that Saturday, -and subsequently he came around and he said he had to use the money to -get into the business there. What do you do with a person—you’re just -stuck. You can’t do nothing until then—you can’t do nothing with them. -That went on for a couple of months, and now, listen to this: One day, -on a Friday—that’s how the other $700 is going to come in—on a Friday -he comes in and he says, “If I don’t get the money to buy beer, I’ve -got to close it down.” Well, you’ve got to think—you’re already stuck -with $3,000—that’s how the payments came when I was with him at the -Vegas Club—you understand me? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; so, you gave him another $700 on that occasion? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when he sold the Silver Spur at that time, he gave -me money back, because I have the note on the Silver Spur. He gave me -the note on the Silver Spur for the money, so in order to release the -note, he gave me $1,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, that’s a different transaction from the $3,700; is it? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s from the $3,700. You see, I took a note afterwards, -when he went bankrupt—when he went with the Bob Wills Ranch House, he -gave me a note on the Silver Spur. - -Mr. HUBERT. For what amount? - -Mr. PAUL. For the $3,700. - -Mr. HUBERT. Up to that time you didn’t have a note, but when the Ranch -House folded—— - -Mr. PAUL. Folded—it didn’t fold, his partner bought him out—the two of -them—he couldn’t—he didn’t get any money out of it anyway. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, he went into the Silver Spur? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he was in the Silver Spur before. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was in the Silver Spur already? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was in both? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; he was in both. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you got him to give you a note to show the $3,700? - -Mr. PAUL. But when he sold it, I think he sold it for $2,200, or -$2,700, but he had to pay so many people that he gave me a thousand. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he sold the Silver Spur—— - -Mr. PAUL. I had to give him the note—he couldn’t sell it without the -note. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the note secured in any way? - -Mr. PAUL. No; it was registered. - -Mr. HUBERT. A registered note, which made it a lien against the Silver -Spur? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that if he was going to sell it to anybody he had -to clear the note, he had to get some sort of cancellation as to -registration and that required the note? - -Mr. PAUL. I gave him the note. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you gave him the note for $1,000. - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That left $2,700 still owing? - -Mr. PAUL. Not exactly $2,700—he paid me in little sums like 50 or 100—I -think it left about $2,200. - -Mr. HUBERT. At that time? - -Mr. PAUL. At that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, you had no more note? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when I helped him at the club, he gave me $50 or $25 -or anything he could get ahold of to give me, so that eventually the -note went down to $1,200, and that’s what it remained on that deal. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, from August 1957 to May 1958, you helped -out at the Vegas, which he was then operating? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Spur had gone? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then the indebtedness got reduced to about $1,200 you -think as of May 1958? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there any further story to that note, or is that money -still owing? - -Mr. PAUL. That money is still owing. - -Mr. HUBERT. That has never been paid? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have no note for it? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, after May 1958, what did you do? - -Mr. PAUL. I bought into the Bull Pen. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was with Semos? - -Mr. PAUL. No, no; that was with Bowman. - -Mr. HUBERT. With Bowman? - -Mr. PAUL. Bowman had a partner, and he got a notice from the building -department—what is it, VA or something like that—they wanted him—as an -examiner, so he sold out to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, originally you and Bowman were in as a -partnership alone, or was it a corporation when it started? - -Mr. PAUL. No, no; when I bought this man out it was a stepfather -then—when I bought him out—Bowman and I were partners—50-50 partners. -Then we made it a corporation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the year of the incorporation? - -Mr. PAUL. I think it was 1960. - -Mr. HUBERT. 1960, but you had operated prior to that as a 50-50 -partnership with Bowman? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, you became a corporation and when did you buy out -Bowman completely so that you are now full owner? - -Mr. PAUL. January 1, 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, after you left this association with Ruby in May of -1958, did you have any further business or social relationship with him? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had been friends actually for that time almost 10 -years, hadn’t you? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends from the time he loaned the money from -me, let’s put it that way. We had to be friends. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him quite often? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, the nights I had off, you see, we used to work 1 day -and 1 night with my partners. If I worked nights, the next day he -worked nights, so we swung it around, so the nights I had off, either -I would go to the Vegas Club—at that time he had the Vegas Club alone, -and after that we would go out to eat. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was his sister, Eva Grant, with the Vegas at that time? At -the very beginning? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did she come in, do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. When he opened up—not the Carousel, but the first one—which -one was that? - -Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign Club? - -Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. What year was that—about? - -Mr. PAUL. 1959 or 1960—I think it was 1959. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you known her before? - -Mr. PAUL. Just a casual acquaintance, you know, I mean—I must have seen -her once or twice. - -Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t live in Dallas? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I think she was out on the road some place selling -merchandise. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further business relations with Sam Ruby? - -Mr. PAUL. No; just that ice cream place. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s all you ever had with him? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you ever have any financial interest in the Vegas? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t now and never have had any? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any, or have you ever had any financial -interest in the Sovereign Club? - -Mr. PAUL. Actually—no—not interest at that time, but when I loaned -him money on the Sovereign Club, that was after he went out with his -partner. He and his partner couldn’t get along—Slayton. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was Joe Slayton? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. They had started the Sovereign Club and they couldn’t get -along and Jack needed some money? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You loaned him some money, then, did you? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, I think I loaned him for 3 months’ rent or 4 months’ -rent—$550 a month, because that was the time he couldn’t pay the rent. - -Mr. HUBERT. You loaned that in cash? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I give him a check—not in cash. - -Mr. HUBERT. You gave him a check? - -Mr. PAUL. A check—I gave him a check. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any evidence of indebtedness? - -Mr. PAUL. No; the following year he gave me 50 percent of the club, -telling me that if the thing don’t go, the fixtures and everything -should represent my money. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had no note about it? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he gave it to me—I knew about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; but did he give you a note? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of written agreement? - -Mr. PAUL. It was a stock receipt. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was a corporation? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he gave you a stock certificate? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how many shares it was for? - -Mr. PAUL. Five hundred. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that half of the corporation? - -Mr. PAUL. Half of the place. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he endorsed that over to you? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, yes; I think he did—he and Slayton—I think did. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was the consideration, that is to say, what money -did you pay for that? - -Mr. PAUL. To open up the Carousel—— - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the Sovereign. - -Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign was no consideration—just the stock deal, that -if anything happens to the club I should get some money out of it for -the fixtures. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact you had actually loaned him 4 -months’ rent at $550, whatever that is? - -Mr. PAUL. About $2,200. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; $2,200, so, was it considered that that loan or that -indebtedness was the consideration for the stock? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or, was the stock merely to secure it? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s the security of that money—the stock was the security -of the money. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, if he had paid the money back to you, he -was entitled to the stock? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. In fact, he took the stock certificate one -time; he thought he would be able to sell the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. - -Mr. PAUL. He thought he would be able to sell the club, so I give him -the stock certificates; you know—you deal with people in money, that’s -true, and you are very careful, but sometimes friendship overshadows a -lot of things. - -Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say there that therefore there was -a close friendship between you and Jack. Did you continue during that -time on a friendly basis; that is to say, visiting at the Vegas or -Sovereign Club? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were always friends. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think you saw him two or three times a week during that -time? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would be from 1958 on? - -Mr. PAUL. No; prior to that I saw him a lot of times before. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack was never married, was he? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was the Sovereign located? Was it the same place as -the Carousel? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the changeover from the -Sovereign to the Carousel? - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I forced him to change that over. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; tell us about that, if you can tell us the dates -and times, as close as you can. - -Mr. PAUL. And, he needed money; the Sovereign Club was dead, as far -as he was concerned. Either he closed it or—either he closes it or he -does something else with it. So, I told him to change it to a burlesque -house and I will give him $1,650 to pay more rent on the place so -he could go on, so I loaned him $1,650 more to turn it over to a -burlesque. That’s when he changed it from the Sovereign Club, a private -club, to a burlesque house, which was an open place. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, with the Sovereign Club you had to belong -to the club? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a bottle club, as required by the laws of Texas? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right; he had a bottle club. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you belonged to the club, you could buy liquor in the -club, and if you didn’t you couldn’t, and it was your thought that the -thing could be a success if its nature were changed? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; well, it’s an open place. - -Mr. HUBERT. It’s an open place, a burlesque house, but, of course, you -couldn’t sell hard liquor? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. But it would sell beer? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. But your proposition to him was that you would advance -$1,650 in the new venture to at least pay the rent for some time? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the incorporation of the S. & -R., Inc.? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; the S. & R. started the thing. That was the first deal; -S. & R. is Slayton and Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the first deal,” are you speaking of the -corporation that existed with reference to the Sovereign Club? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware that there was a corporation called -Sovereign, Inc., that owned the Sovereign Club? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that he endorsed over as security 500 -of the shares? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was not the S. & R. shares with the stock -certificates, was it? - -Mr. PAUL. The S. & R. was the Sovereign Club. The original Sovereign -Club was the S. & R., because Slayton didn’t belong to anything else -but the Sovereign Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get this straight; you mentioned that -in order to start the Sovereign Club you advanced $1,650? - -Mr. PAUL. No; that’s after Slayton went out. - -Mr. HUBERT. After Slayton went out? - -Mr. PAUL. Jack Ruby owned the whole thing then. - -Mr. HUBERT. He did? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you loaned him 3 or 4 months’ rent? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In return for which he pledged to you or gave you as -security 500 shares of the stock of the corporation? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But I want to know what corporation was that; was that the -Sovereign? - -Mr. PAUL. S. & R. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what year would that have been in? - -Mr. PAUL. In 1959 or 1960. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, apparently you were not aware that there was a -Sovereign, Inc.; a corporation called Sovereign, Inc.? - -Mr. PAUL. No; all I knew was that it was the S. & R. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, when the place was changed to the Carousel, what -happened to your 500 shares? - -Mr. PAUL. It’s still the same thing; Carousel is only a name. It’s -still S. & R. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you still have those shares? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I gave them over to his sister. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that? - -Mr. PAUL. February 14. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of this year? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you had held those shares, half of the ownership, as it -were, of the Sovereign Club originally, and subsequently the Carousel, -until recently? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you get any income from the corporation? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any kind of pay? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of any sort; Jack never paid you any money through the -years at all? - -Mr. PAUL. He never paid me a dime. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I gather from that that he stands owing you now $1,200, -which was left from the original debt, about $2,200 that you loaned -him for which you got a security—500 shares of a corporation—and then -another $1,650 that you loaned him in order to open up the Carousel? - -Mr. PAUL. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. A total of about $5,050, and is it your thought that he -still owes you that much money? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, what am I going to do? - -Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to find out just what the picture was, as to -that. He never paid you any dividends? - -Mr. PAUL. He never had any money to pay me dividends; he always used to -work from his pocket. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Carousel very much? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir; once or twice a week. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you usually go on Saturday nights? - -Mr. PAUL. Not every Saturday night; mostly Friday nights. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is some evidence that on those occasions that you -went, there were some sort of payments made to you, Mr. Paul, and -that’s what I want to find out, if there were any. I don’t know what -the nature of them was; that’s why I’m asking you about it. If there -were payments on a loan or payments because of your ownership of the -Carousel. - -Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of; not that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your statement to me is that Jack Ruby -never paid you any money at all? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Either in the way of repaying the loan or in the way of -dividends? Or in the way of profits? - -Mr. PAUL. In the first place, until the last year that he was there, he -was losing money. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel? - -Mr. PAUL. At the Carousel. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it make some money in the last year? - -Mr. PAUL. In the last year I think it made some money, but he was -so much in the hole that he had to pay everybody else. When he was -arrested—now, mind you, when he was arrested—you wouldn’t think that an -electric company—you could owe them that much money, but there was $175 -or $180 a month, and he owed them over $600. - -Mr. HUBERT. The electric company? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; the electric company—Dallas Electric Lights, and the -telephone company—$153. He kept on owing everybody money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you didn’t get any payments of money -from him? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. For your share of what any profits might have been or -dividends or interest or repayment of loan or in any way at all; is -that correct? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you gave the 500 shares that you held up -until February 14 of this year to Eva Grant? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us why you did that? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, for one reason, I couldn’t run the club; I tried to run -it, but I couldn’t run it. I lost about $3,000 in the time I run it -from the 25th of November until the 14th of February. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out who owned the other 500 shares? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it Jack? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know; I was never interested to know all the other -facts, because I never figured to get any money out of the place anyway. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Earl Ruby? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s Jack’s brother? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met him prior to November 24 or November 25? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mr. PAUL. In Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he come here often? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I think I met him twice or three times. - -Mr. HUBERT. In your whole life, until the 25th? - -Mr. PAUL. Until the 25th, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel? - -Mr. PAUL. I couldn’t tell you. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does he claim any? - -Mr. PAUL. I still don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his brother Hyman? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; I met him one time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just one time? - -Mr. PAUL. The Friday before the assassination. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before the murder? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never met him before? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about his sister, Eileen? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all? - -Mr. PAUL. I never heard of her. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think he has another sister called Mrs. Anna Volpert. - -Mr. PAUL. No; I don’t know her, either. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never met any of the other brothers and sisters? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; Sam and his wife, and Eva and Earl, and that’s all. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then Hyman? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Sam, of course, you have seen more often than any of them? - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; Sam—well, we were partners for about 3 or 4 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you had no other business relations after that. - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell me why it was that this man owed you -this kind of money and you had the stock at least for security for -something; you gave it to Eva; what caused that to come about; did she -ask you, or did you volunteer to do that? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I voluntarily gave it to her so she could sell the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought was that it wasn’t anything to -you? - -Mr. PAUL. I told her, “I don’t want nothing out of it; I don’t want -nothing, I take my loss.” And I let her have it. If she could sell -it—to take the money and use it for herself, because she’s a poor widow -and she will verify everything I said—just the words. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you that she had the other 500 shares? - -Mr. PAUL. No; she just told me last week—she was over at my place, and -she told me she didn’t know who had the other 500 shares. - -Mr. HUBERT. Has anyone asked Earl about it? - -Mr. PAUL. I didn’t ask Earl about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack himself? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Jack since he has been in jail? - -Mr. PAUL. I have seen him three times since he has been in there—one -time I seen him—about 4 weeks ago—the time before I went to New York, -the week before I went to New York I was down there, the 27th, I think -it was, and I came back the 2d. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was of April? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you saw him once just before that? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had seen him since he had been -in jail? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I saw him twice when he first got into jail—twice I saw -him then. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was the last time you saw him in jail -and then you saw him two other times before that? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When were those times—about? - -Mr. PAUL. I think about the second week and the fourth week—I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him his business? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir—no, sir; I didn’t discuss it—I didn’t discuss -nothing—how could you discuss a man’s business when he is held for -murder? - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I didn’t mean that you would bring up the -subject, but I was wondering if perhaps he had asked about it? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have been unable to get from any source -Jack or Earl or Eva or Sam or anybody else where the other 500 shares -are? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you gave your 500 you held to her—you received nothing -in return for it? - -Mr. PAUL. No: what I told her to do was to pay the Government. - -Mr. HUBERT. And from all you know, she doesn’t even know where the -other 500 shares are? - -Mr. PAUL. No; that’s what she told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. I noticed on your income tax return, too, that you had a -capital loss that you have spread over some years of $7,000; I think, -last year was about the last of it—I think you used about $1,000 a -year; is that in connection with any of this, or is that another -transaction? - -Mr. PAUL. No; that’s from the Miramar and the ice cream place—that was -in 1957. The place wasn’t in existence in 1957. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of George Senator? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him, please, Mr. Paul? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, he used to be a salesman, a dry goods salesman of men’s -apparel, let’s call it, shirts and so forth. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale? - -Mr. PAUL. No; retail—maybe wholesale, I don’t know—he was working for -some firm on the road. Well, it’s Jack that made a friend of him you -know what I mean, coming up to the club. They got friendly and in the -last year I think he went into a novelty business with somebody—am I -right? - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s the year 1963? - -Mr. PAUL. I think so—some cars and little—different things, a lot of a -little truck, and then finally about—oh, maybe in July or August—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; they pushed him out, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean his company did? - -Mr. PAUL. It isn’t a company, they pushed him out because he wasn’t -selling anything, or he was using up the money or something to that -effect, and they pushed him out and he wasn’t doing nothing and he was -living with another man and they had an apartment and the other man got -married and he didn’t have no money, so Jack told him he could live -with him until he could get another job, but that’s George Senator. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known George? - -Mr. PAUL. About 2 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you think Ruby knew him about the same length of time? - -Mr. PAUL. I think so—maybe a little longer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any work around the Carousel? - -Mr. PAUL. Who? - -Mr. HUBERT. George Senator? - -Mr. PAUL. I think he used to help him out on Saturday night. I don’t -know whether he paid him or not. Now, I would like to know who told you -I get money out of the Carousel? I wish I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I can’t answer that. - -Mr. PAUL. I know, but somebody must have told you I get money out of -that. You know what I used to do—I used to count the money for him at -the end of the night because he was such a flip, you know what I mean, -he used to argue with everybody that would count the money for him, and -hold it until he went downstairs, so I gave it to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that—that’s interesting. - -Mr. PAUL. Well, if I be there on Saturday night or Friday night, at the -end of the night, he would say to me, “Clear the register.” So, I would -count the money. He says, “Let the boy from the bar give you the money -and hold it until we come downstairs and I go to the car.” And that’s -how I got the money. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be seen counting the money? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes: that’s right—that’s why I wanted to know who told you. - -Mr. HUBERT. But that’s all it amounted to, just that you had counted -the money for him? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s all—I would bring it downstairs—he never carried it -with him actually—I don’t know why he carried so much money the last -time. Actually, he used to throw it in the back of the car in the trunk -and he said, “That’s the place that nobody looks.” - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have known him to go home with money in the -sack and he never put it on his person at all? - -Mr. PAUL. No—in the back of the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Even when he parked his car at night he wouldn’t take it -upstairs? - -Mr. PAUL. What do you mean—no; he never took it up to the house—he left -it in the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to know how much money he had -around like that? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you know, I suppose, from the newspapers -and what you have heard that when he was arrested he had altogether on -his person and in the car an so forth, something in excess—— - -Mr. PAUL. It was in the car too, wasn’t it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Some of it, yes; but to your knowledge, most of the time he -didn’t keep it on his person at all? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the gun, did he keep that on his person? - -Mr. PAUL. It’s a funny thing about the gun—he would always carry it in -a bag, in a deposit bag, a money bag. - -Mr. HUBERT. A canvas bag, and—— - -Mr. PAUL. Unless he went some place special, because he always said -somebody might want to beat him up. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “some place special”—like what? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, like if he was going out on a date or something, you -know, I mean he wouldn’t carry the bag. I mean, if he went to a show or -something, he wouldn’t carry the bag. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he took his gun? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he left it in the bag. The only time he would carry the -gun—the bag was if he wasn’t going to no place or he went home—if he -went to eat, he would take it with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. The gun or the bag? - -Mr. PAUL. The bag with the gun. - -Mr. HUBERT. From his car? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But yet he would leave it outside all night? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the car? - -Mr. PAUL. In the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. But let me see if I get this straight—if he was going to -eat, he would go to his car, take the money out of the trunk—— - -Mr. PAUL. No; the bag. - -Mr. HUBERT. The bag—with the gun only? - -Mr. PAUL. The gun. - -Mr. HUBERT. He would leave the money there and take the bag with the -gun, and then carried the gun in that fashion? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, many times he would be driving my car, he would leave -the bag and the money on the bottom and lock the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the gun would be in there with the bag and the money? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you say that there were occasions when he would take -the gun alone, leaving the money behind, but the gun not in a holster, -but in a bag? - -Mr. PAUL. But in a bag—so everybody thought he was carrying money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he ever owned a holster? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the gun in a pocket or tucked in -his waist? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I never did. - -Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever seen him carry his gun was when -he carried it in a bag? - -Mr. PAUL. In the bag. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Gruber that lives out in -California? - -Mr. PAUL. Gruber? - -Mr. HUBERT. Gruber [spelling] G-r-u-b-e-r. - -Mr. PAUL. That name doesn’t sound familiar to me. I’ll tell you, Jack -had a million friends that I would never remember their names anyway. -He used to introduce me and the name just flew by. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about this boy Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne -Crafard, as he was called—do you know anything about him, that young -man that was around the club for the last month or so? - -Mr. PAUL. I think he was cleaning up the place every day and used to -sleep there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him? - -Mr. PAUL. Jack brought up so many—no; I never did talk to him, but I -never talked to those people myself that Jack used to pick up in the -street and bring them up to work and do something, and in a couple of -weeks they disappeared. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a peculiar thing at all for Jack -to bring in someone? - -Mr. PAUL. Take them home to sleep—a man that hasn’t got a place to -live. I used to say to Jack, “Suppose he robs you?” He says, “So, he -robs me.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Louis McWillie? - -Mr. PAUL. McWillie? I knew him a long time ago. I think he is in—not -Vegas—what is the other place? - -Mr. HUBERT. Vegas is right. - -Mr. PAUL. Vegas—is he? - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell me what you know about him, was he ever in Dallas? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; sure, he was in Dallas a long time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his business when he was here? - -Mr. PAUL. When he come—he used to go to golf places and bet on golf. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about golf tournaments and golf games? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, wasn’t he a gambler in general—all -sorts of gambling? - -Mr. PAUL. I think so—I never had any dealings with him either. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of Ruby’s dealings with him? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you know that sometime in 1959, probably -around September or Labor Day, Jack went down to Havana, Cuba? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And stayed with McWillie? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, McWillie sent him the carfare—McWillie was running the -gambling house down there for the—I don’t know what it was—Batista or -some of their people—somebody else down there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know and how you found out about it? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, Jack told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you? - -Mr. PAUL. He told me he sent him money to come down there for a -vacation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack supposed to work or was it just a vacation? - -Mr. PAUL. Just a vacation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any reason why, or did Jack tell you any -reason why, McWillie would be interested in financing a vacation for -Jack? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know, but I think Jack was a close friend of his. -Actually, he thought the whole world was built around McWillie. -Actually—and I never could see it, and I never used to go out with him -when McWillie was around. - -Mr. HUBERT. You disliked McWillie? - -Mr. PAUL. No: but I didn’t care too much for his personality. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever express yourself in that way to Ruby? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his answer? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, he told me—that he thinks he is a great guy—Jack says. -Well, actually, I for one never meet too many friends with Jack, and -Jack made everybody a friend and I haven’t got too many friends. I -just work to make a living. I’m not interested in a whole lot of other -things. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying is that Jack was a man -who made a lot of friends? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were one of his friends? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had fewer friends than he did? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you considered yourself one of his best friends? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes—Jack’s best friend. - -Mr. HUBERT. Both ways? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stayed in Havana? - -Mr. PAUL. A week or 10 days. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he went to Miami at that time or New -Orleans? - -Mr. PAUL. I think he stopped in Miami and went from Miami to Cuba and -he came back to Miami. I think he had to do that anyway—it wasn’t a -straight flight. - -Mr. HUBERT. But I take it that you are assuming that it was not—what I -wanted to get at was whether Jack had ever told you—that’s the way you -would know. - -Mr. PAUL. I’m telling you that he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. That he told you that he went from here to Miami? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And from Miami down to Havana? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And on the route back, he came back through Miami? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; I think that’s what he told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other trips that he has taken? - -Mr. PAUL. The only time when I was at the Vegas Club, he went to—what -are those Springs over there—Hot Springs—I think 2 weekends in a row. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other travels that he might have made? - -Mr. PAUL. He went to New York. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? - -Mr. PAUL. Last year to see the AGVA president. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in regard to the trouble he was having with the -Weinsteins? - -Mr. PAUL. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that was in August, was it not? - -Mr. PAUL. No; it was earlier than August, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his trip to New Orleans last year? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes—he went to—somebody told him about this strip down there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Bourbon Street? - -Mr. PAUL. Bourbon Street and he went down to catch her act. - -Mr. HUBERT. He went for what purpose? - -Mr. PAUL. To catch her act—to catch the girl’s act, so he could book -her. - -Mr. HUBERT. He wanted to look at the girl’s act to see if he could get -any talent to come up here? - -Mr. PAUL. The reason why—she asked for a lot of money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is that? - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, what is her name—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Jada? - -Mr. PAUL. Jada. - -Mr. HUBERT. He went down to Bourbon Street to see if he could get any -striptease acts? - -Mr. PAUL. That was the one he was sent to look at. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was especially sent for Jada? - -Mr. PAUL. This Earl Norman—the M.C.—was down there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Earl Norman? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; and he saw her and he asked Jack to go down and see and -get her, that she was going to bring him a lot of business. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you knew this because Jack kept you in touch with the -things he was doing and he made a contract with Jada, did he? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; she worked at the club quite a while. - -Mr. HUBERT. She brought in some money, as I understand? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; and no. At first she was doing all right, and then she -fell off to nothing. - -Mr. HUBERT. She quit, I think, before her contract was over? - -Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was a verbal contract—the last. You see, they -had a contract to start with and then it became a verbal contract—she -works as long as she wants to—as long as he wants to keep her. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the first contract was a written contract -but of limited time, and when it ran out it was on a weekly basis? - -Mr. PAUL. On a weekly basis. - -Mr. HUBERT. During last fall, say from the time Jack came back from New -York until November, do you think you saw him two or three times a week -then? Or spoke to him? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you are in a position to say whether or not -he left town during any of those times during the period after he came -back from New York—say, September, October, and November? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t quite understand your answer—are you in a -position to say? - -Mr. PAUL. He didn’t leave town. - -Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion? - -Mr. PAUL. The only place I know he went is New Orleans and New York, -last year. - -Mr. HUBERT. And in your opinion if he had gone anyplace else, you would -have known it? - -Mr. PAUL. I would have known it. In fact, I was the only one that knew -he went to New York, but when he went to New Orleans everybody knew -because that was another thing—that was no secret. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you are basing your opinion on the knowledge of his -movements by the fact that you were in contact with him both in person -and by telephone several times a week all through this period? - -Mr. PAUL. Almost every day. - -Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another? - -Mr. PAUL. What? - -Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another or see one another? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes—telephone mostly. In the last year, I think I used to go -to the club twice a week, Tuesday and Friday, because all the other -nights I was working. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those were your nights off? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you went almost 100 percent of the time that you had -nights off, Tuesday and Friday, you went to the Carousel and you would -stay there all evening? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, I wouldn’t come until late anyway. - -Mr. HUBERT. You would come late and stay until it closed? - -Mr. PAUL. And then go for coffee or something to eat. - -Mr. HUBERT. And in other than those days you would get in touch by -telephone? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose—just friendship? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s all—and, he had trouble with the Weinsteins and he -always asked for advice. That’s why he used to call me all the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. The telephone records, as you know, show quite a number of -calls between you. - -Mr. PAUL. They don’t? - -Mr. HUBERT. They do, and I was wondering just what those calls were -about. - -Mr. PAUL. Well, every day he would find something else he would like to -do—he would think of doing, or the union didn’t do right by him, the -AGVA, or the girls didn’t do right—that’s why he called me almost every -day. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean he would call you if he had trouble with the -girls? - -Mr. PAUL. If he had trouble with any of the girls, he would call me. - -Mr. HUBERT. If he had trouble with the one—with the Weinsteins, he -would call you? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; and the AGVA people—you see, they’ve got a board of -directors and each one takes a part, and if this one doesn’t do -right—that was almost consistently—he called on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that the President had been shot? - -Mr. PAUL. On Friday—I was working. It was the lunch hour, you know, and -lunch hour is our busiest hour. I’m always there on the lunch hour, and -my landlord’s son called me on the telephone and told me the President -was shot—they got it on the radio, and so I turned on the radio and -then we all listened, everybody in the place naturally, because there -was some excitement—people hollered and cried all over the place, and -then everybody was listening to the radio to see what the result would -be, and at 2 o’clock I went home, or a little after 2—generally I -stayed until 2 o’clock on Friday. A little after 2—and when I got home -Jack called me and he said, “Did you hear what happened?” I said, “Yes; -I heard it on the air.” He says, “Isn’t that a terrible thing?” I said, -“Yes; Jack.” He said, “I made up my mind. I’m going to close it down.” -I said, “Well, I can’t close down, I’ve got an eating place.” - -Mr. HUBERT. And did he suggest to you that you should close down your -place? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s what he said, “Ain’t you going to close?” I said, “No; -I’ve got an eating place.” I says, “You can do whatever you want.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he discuss with you whether he should close down? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t discuss it. He told me he was going to close -down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you for how long? - -Mr. PAUL. Three days. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was at 2 o’clock? - -Mr. PAUL. Friday at 2—Friday night and Saturday night and Sunday night. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was going to close up? - -Mr. PAUL. Friday night and Saturday and Sunday nights. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he had chosen those 3 nights? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; in honor of the President being shot—he was heartbroken. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean, why 3 nights instead of 2 or 4? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s what I told him. I said to him, “Are the other clubs -going to close?” He said, “I don’t care about the other clubs.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was he calling you from, do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know—he didn’t say where he was calling me from. He -generally called me from a telephone booth or the club—not so much from -his home. - -Mr. HUBERT. What would seem to be his condition when you were talking -to him, emotionally and otherwise? - -Mr. PAUL. Very bad emotionally—he said, “I can’t believe it.” - -Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know—if you don’t see the person, you can’t tell the -person on a telephone how he reacts or—— - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean, you have known him for a good many years. - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I’ve known Jack for so many years and he has always -been that way, you know, reaction—fast—punch line—got to do this right -away [indicating]. With him it wasn’t—he thought and did. It wasn’t a -second thought. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you are quite clear that when he called you about 2 -o’clock—— - -Mr. PAUL. That’s about a little after the time I got home—was a quarter -to 3. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the first time you had heard from him? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. The President was already dead? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was known he was dead? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about Tippit? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t know nothing about Tippit. I didn’t know -nothing about Tippit. - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t tell me anything about Tippit. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he said he had made up his mind he was going -to close up the club for 3 days already? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t ask you—he told you? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention he thought that the death of the President -would hurt business in the Dallas area and therefore hurt his business? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. He did not? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last—about? - -Mr. PAUL. Three or 4 minutes—he says, “It’s a terrible, terrible -thing.” Then, when I got back to the place in the evening he called me. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, I came back at 5 and I think he called me at 6. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was then? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir; he says, “It’s such a terrible thing that I’m going -to go to synagogue.” He says, “Do you want to come along?” I says, -“No; I don’t go to the synagogue, I’m not going to make a fool out of -myself.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he go to the synagogue? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he go often? - -Mr. PAUL. For a year he went every—should I say—every day. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was after his father’s death? - -Mr. PAUL. That was after his father died—yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s part of the Jewish religion that you should do that? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s true. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he followed that? - -Mr. PAUL. He followed that very closely. - -Mr. HUBERT. After that, did he go very much? - -Mr. PAUL. No; once in a while on holidays—he made it a habit of going -on holidays to the synagogue. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Jewish holidays? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go every week? - -Mr. PAUL. No—no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a surprise to you that he would be going to the -synagogue? - -Mr. PAUL. To tell you the truth, I didn’t—anything Jack does is no -surprise to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. I’m sorry (addressing the reporter) I didn’t get that, did -you get that? - -The REPORTER. “To tell you the truth, anything Jack does is no surprise -to me.” - -Mr. HUBERT. But it was not his normal custom? - -Mr. PAUL. No; but he says he’s going to pray because a thing like that -happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, that, you think, was about what time? - -Mr. PAUL. About 6 o’clock in the evening. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that conversation was just a matter of a few minutes, -too? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear from him next? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether it was that night again, after he -got out of synagogue—I can’t recall. But, he didn’t call me again—I -know—until Saturday night, or until Saturday afternoon, and he said, -“Did you see my ad in the paper?” I says, “What paper?” Well, Saturday -is a pretty bad paper, and I said, “What paper?” He says, “In the Times -Herald and the News.” I said, “What did you put?” He said, “That -I’m closing down for 3 days.” I said, “That’s what you said to me -yesterday.” He said, “But, it’s in the paper.” I said, “All right, I -believe you.” - -Mr. HUBERT. You think that was Saturday afternoon? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had not spoken to him or seen him since the night -before? - -Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t see him—no; when I saw him was Thursday night. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were at the club then? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; then he called me Saturday when I got home. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t feel too good that night, and I left home—I -generally work until 1 o’clock in the morning. I left at 11 o’clock -and he said he called the place and they told him I went home and they -told him I didn’t feel well, and he says, “What’s wrong with you?” And -I says, “I’ve got a cold,” and then he told me that he was downtown and -that nobody was doing any business, so I says to him, “Well, if nobody -is doing any business, I guess you had better close.” - -Mr. HUBERT. And what did he say to that? - -Mr. PAUL. Then he called me back one more time—I didn’t give you this -before because I didn’t—then he called me back one more time and told -me that he was over at his sister’s house, Eva’s house, and Eva was -crying and they are both crying. - -Mr. HUBERT. This was Saturday night? - -Mr. PAUL. This was Saturday night—that was late. I said, “Jack, I don’t -feel good. Let me go to sleep.” - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first call on Saturday night did the -second call come? - -Mr. PAUL. The first call come, I think, was 9:30 or 10 o’clock, and the -second call I think was about 11:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had left at what time? - -Mr. PAUL. I left the place about 9 o’clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Because of your feeling ill? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he reached you shortly after you got there? - -Mr. PAUL. No, it was about an hour or so later. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were in bed already? - -Mr. PAUL. I was in bed already—that was the last time I spoke to him, I -says, “Jack, let me go to sleep because I don’t feel well.” - -Mr. HUBERT. That was on the second call? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, the second call was at what time? - -Mr. PAUL. About 11 or 11:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. The first call was about 9:30? - -Mr. PAUL. No; about 10:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. About 10:30, and the second call about an hour after? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I left the place, but it just takes me about 15 or 20 -minutes to get home, and I doctored myself up with some hot tea and so -forth—it must have taken about another half hour, so it must have been -about 10:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the first call—he had called your place -and found out you were not feeling well? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; he called me and I told him I wasn’t feeling well and he -told me that nobody downtown was doing any business. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you told him he ought to be glad he stopped, -because if nobody was doing any business he might as well be closed, -and that was about the subject of that conversation? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s—that was that conversation. That’s the subject, and -then he called me back and he told me he was over at his sister’s house -and his sister was crying and he was crying with her on account of the -President, and that’s the last I spoke to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You could hear her crying or he told you? - -Mr. PAUL. He just told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about his own crying, could you tell that he was -crying, did he seem to be crying? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he wasn’t crying then when he spoke to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t crying then—in other words, what he was telling -you was that he and his sister had been crying? - -Mr. PAUL. Had been crying. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that all he wanted to tell you? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s all. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you in effect told him you were sick and not to bother -you any more, would that be about it? - -Mr. PAUL. And I went to sleep and that’s the last I talked to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, when was your next contact with Jack? - -Mr. PAUL. When he was in jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about the Oswald matter? - -Mr. PAUL. Sunday morning—I was—I had just finished making out the -payroll. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the Bull Pen? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; when John Jackson, my manager, called and the girl -answered the phone and she says—he says, “Oswald is shot.” - -Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you? - -Mr. PAUL. To the girl, and the girl relayed it to me. Just, “Oswald was -shot,” so I looked up and I says, “So what?” I mean—just the regular -coincidence. “So what?” 5 minutes later a fellow that lived around the -corner that knew me—he used to work at the Sky Club years ago, named -Howard something, came in and says, “Jack Ruby shot Oswald.” - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in the Bull Pen at Arlington? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was that man’s name? - -Mr. PAUL. Howard something. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s his first name? - -Mr. PAUL. Howard is his first name—I can’t think of the second -name—he’s just a customer there—he used to work a long time ago at the -Sky Club—I think he was—he used to be their cabinet man there, so I -says, “Go away.” I says, “Wait, I’ll call the house.” So, I called the -house and nobody answered. - -Mr. HUBERT. You called Jack’s house? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; I called Jack’s house and nobody answered, so Jackson -and his wife came in and said, “Yes, we just saw it on TV that Jack -Ruby shot Oswald.” So, I says, “All right”—that’s when I called Tom -Howard. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it you called Howard, do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. I would say it was about in between 11:30 and 12 o’clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between 10 minutes or 15 minutes after the -shooting, to 30 to 40 minutes after the shooting? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, you know—shooting—we didn’t think he killed him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand. - -Mr. PAUL. So, I says, “Tom,” well Tom has been my lawyer for the -longest time. - -Mr. HUBERT. He has been your lawyer? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; and Jack’s too. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack’s too? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I says, “Tom, see what you could do for Jack. I -heard he shot Oswald.” He says, “Okay,” and that’s it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he was not aware that Oswald -had been shot? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether he did or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you when you talked to him that he was -not aware that Ruby had shot him? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I just told him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate he knew about it? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t. He says, “Okay, I’ll take care of it.” Those -are the words he said. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you asked him to see what he could do and -without indicating whether he knew about it or not, as far as you could -tell, he says, “I’ll see what I can do.” And that was the end of the -conversation? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any appointment to meet him yourself? - -Mr. PAUL. Who—Tom? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. PAUL. No; I went down to his office anyway. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you were at the Bull Pen at that conversation and you -went where? - -Mr. PAUL. Downtown. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go? - -Mr. PAUL. I went to the—John and I and the girl went down to the police -station and I saw Tom Howard there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Inside the station? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whereabouts was it, do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. It was right off the entrance to the—as you walk in—do you -know where the entrance is when you walk in? - -Mr. HUBERT. From Harwood Street? - -Mr. PAUL. What? - -Mr. HUBERT. On Harwood Street? - -Mr. PAUL. No; it’s on Commerce. - -Mr. HUBERT. Not the basement ramp? - -Mr. PAUL. The basement ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went through the basement ramp? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about? - -Mr. PAUL. Maybe 1 o’clock, and so we meet him, and he says, “They won’t -let you see him anyway, you had better go over and stay at the office. -I think it’s on television.” So we walked over to his office and we -watched television until about 3 o’clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was Jackson and you and Howard? - -Mr. PAUL. No; not Howard—a girl Tammi True. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tammi True and you went to Howard’s office? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Howard was there? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I was in the courthouse—he sent us over there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Howard sent you to his office to watch television? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; to watch television. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he went where, do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did? - -Mr. PAUL. No; he—some more lawyers they all got together and then they -left again and they came back again and riding into town, that’s when -we heard that Oswald was dead—died. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Howard’s office, you knew he had died? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Howard tell you he had tried to get a writ of habeas -corpus for Ruby? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what happened to that proceeding, do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you stayed there, you said, until about when? - -Mr. PAUL. 3 o’clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is Tammi True? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s one of the girls that worked at the club before—she -was an entertainer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the Bull Pen? - -Mr. PAUL. No; she lives in Fort Worth. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did she come to be riding with you and Jackson? - -Mr. PAUL. She came up to the Bull Pen when she heard about Jack Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive in her car? - -Mr. PAUL. No; in Jackson’s car. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when she heard it at her home in Fort -Worth, she came to your place and the three of you came downtown and -stayed until 3 o’clock? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened? - -Mr. PAUL. I went back—went back home. - -Mr. HUBERT. The three of you? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I went as far as—we took Tammi back and then I let -Jackson off and I went back to Dallas and went to the movies. - -Mr. HUBERT. You took Tammi back to Fort Worth? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then came back to Arlington? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And left off Jackson? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I went back to the movies, because when I came in, -I says, “Anybody looking for me,” to the cashier, and she says, “A -reporter and a photographer was calling you.” - -Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Bull Pen? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you drove in your car alone and you went to the movies -and I think you said you went to the Majestic? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get there? - -Mr. PAUL. I got there about 4:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car some place? - -Mr. PAUL. I parked it on the lot. You see, Sunday, you don’t have to -have no parking. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed in the Majestic and watched the show? - -Mr. PAUL. I stayed there about an hour—I wasn’t interested too much in -the show, I just wanted to get away from everything. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come out of the show? - -Mr. PAUL. It must have been about, oh, 6 something—I went back and I -went to Jackson’s house. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went into the show about what time—4:30, you think? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until about 6, when you came out, -about an hour and a half? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, what did you do? - -Mr. PAUL. I went back and went over to Jackson’s house. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s on what street and where? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s where I’m living now—Browning Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you went to his house—go ahead? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; and stayed there about an hour or so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was there with you? - -Mr. PAUL. The girls. - -Mr. HUBERT. What girls? - -Mr. PAUL. Jackson’s girls. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean his daughters? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; two girls; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was just the three of you? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; they made me something to eat. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you got there about what time? - -Mr. PAUL. Then, I called the place and Jackson told me that the FBI was -looking for me and I kept on wondering what they wanted with me, and so -we stayed over there, and then his sister had had a little gathering -over at her house. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean Eva? - -Mr. PAUL. No; Jackson’s sister, so we went over there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Her name is Mrs. Gable? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; we had some ice cream and John walked in with the two -FBI men; that was 9 o’clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mrs. Bowman? - -Mr. PAUL. Mrs. Bowman? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. PAUL. Sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is she? - -Mr. PAUL. She’s my ex-partner’s wife. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with her at that time? - -Mr. PAUL. We were living together in a big house. - -Mr. HUBERT. On that date? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s way out in the country. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see her that day? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Not at all? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t think I did—I might have seen her when I left the -house. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what time would that have been? - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, in the morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t see her after Oswald was shot? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so—I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go back to the house after Oswald was shot? - -Mr. PAUL. I think I went from the movies to the house and changed -clothes—that’s what I think I did, and then went over to Jackson’s -house. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was it that you decided to take over the operation of -the club? - -Mr. PAUL. That Monday after the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ask you to do so? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t see Jack. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva ask you to do so? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, why did you do it? - -Mr. PAUL. Personally, I don’t know—I just did it on the spur of the -moment, and I have been sorry every day after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack, or send word to him that you were going -to do this? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask—well, weren’t you interested in salvaging some -of the debt that was owed to you if you could? - -Mr. PAUL. If I could. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I meant—that was why you did it? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; but I saw what I was getting into—it turned out to be a -lemon. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, it turned out, as you say, to be a lemon, but your -motive was to see if you could operate it to see if anything could be -made out of it, to see if you could recover some of the debt that was -owed to you? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time, I suppose, if you could make the -thing a success—whatever Jack’s interest was, it would be helpful to -him, too? - -Is that a fair statement of what was running in your mind? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, naturally—I mean—— - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want to put words in your mouth—if it’s not so, -tell me. - -Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was on the spur of the moment that I did it, and -I learned right away it cost me money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva object? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did any of his brothers or sisters object? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you actually operated it for approximately 2½ months? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then why did you close it? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, maybe I would still be operating it—no, I wasn’t going -to operate it any more. I told Eva, “I’m going to give you the stock,” -and let her do whatever she wanted to with it, because I couldn’t -do it any more. The second thing is, I had a broken foot—I couldn’t -make it any more over there. I was only coming up once a week, and the -thing was shot, and then on the same day I decided to that, the liquor -control board closed it up. They didn’t close it up, they sent me a -notice that I can’t sell beer, so I might as well close it up. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it hasn’t been opened since then? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You paid the rent and all the bills during that time? - -Mr. PAUL. When I was operating it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you came out a deficit of about $3,000? - -Mr. PAUL. At least—maybe more—I paid the Government $1,770. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was that for? - -Mr. PAUL. Back taxes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Excise taxes? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; it was for September, November, October, December. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that excise tax? - -Mr. PAUL. Excise tax—that’s the cabaret tax, they call it. - -Mr. HUBERT. It doesn’t have anything to do with the social security or -withholding taxes? - -Mr. PAUL. I paid them some of that too—there was only one person that -was getting paid—all the entertainers got their own—they don’t go under -social security. - -Mr. HUBERT. They are self-employed? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a woman by the name of Bertha Cheek? - -Mr. PAUL. What is her name? - -Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek. - -Mr. PAUL. It doesn’t even ring a bell. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby ever tell you that just towards the end, in a week -or two prior to the death of Oswald, that he was trying to borrow some -money from her, and get her interested in opening a new cabaret? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or doing something to the Carousel? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir; that name don’t even ring a bell to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all and he never mentioned her? - -Mr. PAUL. Never. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he mention that he was trying to raise any money? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think perhaps you would be in as good a position as -anybody else to tell us some things about Jack’s personal life. As you -may know, there have been some rumors at least, that maybe Jack was a -homosexual? - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, no—there was rumors? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, you have heard the rumors? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. We would like your opinion on that subject. - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, no—no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You knew the man a long time? - -Mr. PAUL. A long time. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion he was not a homosexual? - -Mr. PAUL. Positively. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship with women generally; do you know? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, he liked women. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have affairs with them? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes—just different times, different women all the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever particularly attached to one? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was that? - -Mr. PAUL. Let me remember that name again—mention some names, I can’t -think of the name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Alice Nichols? - -Mr. PAUL. Alice Nichols—yes, I think they were going around together -for about 10 or 11 years. I used to go out with them too. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship to the girls who used to work in -his place, was it strictly a business relationship? - -Mr. PAUL. With the girls—strictly business. He would like to make a -girl that would come up there, but not the girls that was working for -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean he wouldn’t try to date the strippers or -waitresses? - -Mr. PAUL. No—we used to take them out for coffee after they got -through, but that’s all. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a picture, or rather several -pictures which have already been identified, and I’m not going to give -them a new identification number. I’m going to show you a group of -five pictures, exact copies of which have already been identified in -connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibits 5300 A -through F and ask you if it is not so that Jack Ruby appears in each -one of those pictures? - -Mr. PAUL. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are two girls in there? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. One has blonde hair and is wearing dark clothes and the -other is—has darker hair and is wearing a striped dress. - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us who they are, referring first to the one -with the blonde hair with the black dress? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, that’s Kathy Kay. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is the other one? - -Mr. PAUL. This is Alice—somebody—I don’t know the second name anyway. - -Mr. HUBERT. Alice Anderson? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes—I never knew her second name. She worked there. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did she work there? - -Mr. PAUL. Alice was a waitress or a champagne girl, what you call them, -and she was the strip. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, Kathy Kay was a strip? - -Mr. PAUL. Kathy Kay was a strip. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had the girl that you identify as Alice, to wit, -the girl in those pictures with the striped dress, how long had she -been working at the club? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, from the time he made a burlesque out of it, she used -to work a couple of weeks, a couple of months, then quit and come back -and work another couple of months or couple of weeks and then quit. She -was never a steady girl. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is she married? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he date her? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you positive or is it that you just don’t know? - -Mr. PAUL. That I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. But I take it from the way you answered the question that -you knew him so well that you probably would have known it if he had? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes—if he did I would have known. - -Mr. HUBERT. He would tell you that? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He told you about his affairs with women, is that right? - -Mr. PAUL. No; not always—he told me about affairs he wanted to tell me -about, let’s put it that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there lots of them? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, there were quite a few. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a girl by the name of Joyce McDonald? - -Mr. PAUL. Joyce? - -Mr. HUBERT. I think her stage name was Joy Dale? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize her in the photo I am now showing you? - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, I recognize her. - -Mr. HUBERT. This photograph has been identified in connection with the -deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibit 5301 A through E, and there -are five pictures here showing a man and two girls—Jack Ruby is the -man, of course; is that right? - -Mr. PAUL. I guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the girl on your right, as you look at the picture? - -Mr. PAUL. I’m not seeing it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to identify both girls, but do so in -such a way that the record can show it—in other words, when you say, -“this” it won’t show up on the record, but when you say “this” you must -say the girl on the left-hand side of the picture as you are looking at -it—is that who you mean? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s Dale. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s the girl called Joyce Day? - -Mr. PAUL. Joy Dale. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s the one on the right-hand side of the picture? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; the one on the right-hand side is—what do you call her -again—that little girl up that went to court? - -Mr. HUBERT. Little Lynn? - -Mr. PAUL. Little Lynn. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s Karen Bennett, did you know her as that? - -Mr. PAUL. No; I never knew her as that, all I knew her was Little Lynn. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the relationship between this Dale girl -and Jack Ruby was that you have identified in Exhibit 5301 A through E, -the deposition of Andrew Armstrong? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know what Andrew knew, but I know nothing about her. -I know she worked there—she was a stripper. - -Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know, was there any romantic relationship or -sex relationship? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. I wouldn’t say “yes” and I wouldn’t say “no.” - -Mr. HUBERT. You just don’t know? - -Mr. PAUL. Anything I don’t know—I can’t say I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s absolutely correct. I am simply asking you because -you have been a friend a long time and as you said a moment ago, he -told you some of the things that he wanted you to know? - -Mr. PAUL. Well; I don’t think he wanted me to know about any of the -girls that worked in the club, even if he did have affairs with -them—that would be—I probably would say something to him, but on the -outside, I know a lot of girls that he had affairs with. - -Mr. HUBERT. I’m now going to show you a picture which has been -identified as one of the pictures in Exhibit 5303 A through M -deposition on Andrew Armstrong, a picture which shows a girl in a -bikini suit, a blond girl. There seems to be two sailors in the picture -and on the right-hand side of the picture as you look at it, there is -a rather large man in a white shirt with his left elbow leaning on the -stage, and I ask you if you know who the girl is, do you recognize her? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s the same Kathy Kay. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s Kathy Kay? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man, the fat man, that I have referred to with -the white shirt, the very heavy man? - -Mr. PAUL. This one over here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him there? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never did? - -Mr. PAUL. No—there isn’t a familiar face in there. What is he supposed -to be? No answers [laughing]. - -Mr. HUBERT. I will show you now two pictures that have been previously -identified as Exhibit 5304 A and B in connection with the deposition -of Andrew Armstrong, the first one showing a girl serving a man who is -seated, and there is apparently a boy in the background, and I ask you -if you can identify that place, first of all, is that the Carousel? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the place at all? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the girl is who is in the stripper suit? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the man is, sitting down at the table? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that bartender is standing at the back? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Mickey Ryan? - -Mr. PAUL. No—I might have heard the name but I never knew a guy with a -name like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recognize the man at the bar? - -Mr. PAUL. No—it’s not in the Carousel, that’s for sure. The Carousel -had no cloths on the tables. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did it have a bar? - -Mr. PAUL. It had a bar. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean, not for liquor. - -Mr. PAUL. No; that’s right—that looks like a private club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you familiar with the notebooks and memo books that -Ruby kept? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them at all? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that one of the girls in the club had a boy friend -named Tommy, do you know who that was—Tommy? - -Mr. PAUL. The only real boy friends that I can give you the name of and -she got married to the boy recently. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was that? - -Mr. PAUL. He was in the police department, but I can’t think of his -name. He made her give up the business and they got married and went to -California, but you know, talking about boy friends, those girls have -boy friends all the time—they are different boy friends—you never know -which one is which. I can’t remember one name from another. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, here’s what I wanted to get at—after you took over -the club, you apparently hired someone to collect the cover charge at -the front? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was a gray-haired man, I’m told? - -Mr. PAUL. No, it was Leo Torti. - -Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling] T-o-r-t-i? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have a gray-haired man there? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get him, had he been there before? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had worked there before? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, he didn’t actually work, he used to help Eva, and when -Eva closed that place down he came to help there, but he never got paid -for anything—just, I took him home and I took him out for a bite to eat. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old a man would he have been? - -Mr. PAUL. Forty or forty something—he isn’t gray. I’m the only gray man -that was there. - -Mr. HUBERT. There was no gray man who was on the door collecting? - -Mr. PAUL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva close up the Vegas? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, she closed it up and then she sold it. - -Mr. HUBERT. When—before the Carousel was closed up? - -Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes, she closed it up right after New Year’s. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right after Ruby was put in jail? - -Mr. PAUL. No, right after New Year’s. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean she sold it? - -Mr. PAUL. She sold it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did she sell it to? - -Mr. PAUL. She sold it to two men and a woman that formed a corporation -and bought it. It’s still called the Vegas Club—they’ve got it in the -paper “under new management—Vegas Club.” I don’t even know who they are. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I handed you at the beginning of the deposition, or -even before the deposition began, a number of sheets of paper, the -first group numbering nine pages, purporting to be a report of an -interview of you by the FBI agents Lish [spelling] L-i-s-h and Barratt -[spelling] B-a-r-r-a-t-t, relating to an interview with you on November -24, 1963, running, as I said, for nine pages. - -For the purpose of identification, I am marking the first page as -follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5319, Deposition of -Ralph Paul,” and I am putting my name on the first page, and also -writing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of every one of the -other pages. - -Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to read that document, -now identified as Exhibit 5319? - -Mr. PAUL. What do you mean? - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had a chance to read it? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does it represent the truth as far as you know? - -Mr. PAUL. As far as I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are there any corrections you want to make or errors you -want to correct in it? - -Mr. PAUL. Well, you asked me the same thing—— - -Mr. HUBERT. By referring specifically to Exhibit 5319, you see, is -there anything in Exhibit 5319 that is not the truth as far as you -know, in this document here? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s why I asked you to read it, so you could tell -me whether there is anything you want to change in there and you may -take your time with it—I don’t want to rush you at all. - -Mr. PAUL. This page alone, or the whole thing? - -Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing. - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know what I could change. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you read it? - -Mr. PAUL. I think I did—in what respect are you asking me that? - -Mr. HUBERT. I just want to know if everything in there is correct, and -to give you the opportunity of changing anything in there that is not -correct. - -Mr. PAUL. Well, I told you the same thing that you asked me—that’s all -here—I can’t change it in any way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can if it is not the truth, because all we want -is the truth. - -Mr. PAUL. That’s what I told you—the truth. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you willing to state, then, that the facts -related, the statements made in the documents, consisting of nine pages -which I have now identified as Exhibit 5319, are correct? - -Mr. PAUL. As far as I can recall they are correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything to add that document that you think of -right now? - -Mr. PAUL. As far as I could tell, when they asked me those questions, I -told them that was that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And this seems to be a true and fair report of the -interview with you? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you want to delete from that because it -is wrong? - -Mr. PAUL. How is it wrong? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, if it is not wrong, I would take it you would not -want to delete it. That’s what I’m trying to do—is to ask you if there -is anything in there that’s incorrect, because what we are seeking to -get is the truth. - -Mr. PAUL. You think this is wrong? - -Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I didn’t suggest it was wrong. I want to ask -you—since you have had an opportunity to read it—— - -Mr. PAUL. Everything I told them at the time was the right thing—I told -them. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that seems to be a fair and honest report of the -interview you had with them? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, that’s all I wanted to know about that. - -Now, there is another document which purports to be an interview with -you by FBI Agent Clements. - -Mr. PAUL. On the telephone. - -Mr. HUBERT. On November 28, 1963? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes, over the telephone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for purposes of identification as -follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5320, Deposition of -Ralph Paul,” and I am signing my name on that document. That document -contains only one page and it refers—— - -Mr. PAUL. To the stock deal. - -Mr. HUBERT. To some stock deal. - -Mr. PAUL. Let me see it just a minute. - -Mr. HUBERT. This document relates to some conversation with Special -Agent Clements, which was had with you, and it is a report of it. Now, -will you tell me—I think that that conversation was over the phone? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t believe the document so indicates, but if that -is one thing we have learned from this is that that was over the -phone—does it fairly state the content of the conversation you had with -the agent? - -Mr. PAUL. Yes; he asked me what was my interest in the club and I told -him I got a certificate of 50 shares, which I received from Jack Ruby -because he wanted to protect the money I loaned him, that if anything -goes wrong—well, he didn’t put it in so many words—he put it in a -different—collateral—you know what that means—and he said, “Is that -what you mean?” And I said, “I guess that’s what it is supposed to be.” - -I told him that Jack Ruby and Slayton formed the Sovereign Club and it -was called the S. and R., Incorporated. I never knew anything about the -Sovereign Club, Incorporated, that it was then terminated and became -the Carousel Club, which he gave it a name. - -Now, I don’t know whether the Carousel Club was incorporated, and I -said, “I think it is Earl, Ruby’s brother, that had the 500 other -shares,” but I didn’t know for sure, that’s what I told him. He said -he believes Earl, Ruby’s brother. I was confused with the question of -whether I owned stock or not, which I was. I thought it was merely—he -gives me the stock because, like I told you, when he wanted to sell the -place he asked me for the stock so he could sell the place. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, at the time you spoke to him, in fact you were -confused as to what the situation was? - -Mr. PAUL. I sure was. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I’m asking you, is—is this a fair statement of what -you told him? - -Mr. PAUL. I think I gave him a fair statement right up to the -minute—not that statement—that statement isn’t up to the minute, but up -to the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. But at the time—it was accurate? - -Mr. PAUL. At the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the -President’s Commission before? - -Mr. PAUL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paul, one final thing—we have the two statements -that you have given to the FBI, and you have what you have told us -tonight—do you think that putting those two things together we have -just about all you know about Jack Ruby and about what he had to do -with the slaying of Oswald and so forth? - -Mr. PAUL. I don’t know nothing about the slaying of Oswald—that’s for -sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but we know all you know about it when -we have what you told us tonight and this statement—there’s nothing -else? - -Mr. PAUL. I just told you all I know about Jack Ruby for 15 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. There’s nothing we don’t know that you know? - -Mr. PAUL. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement? - -Mr. PAUL. If I knew any more I would be willing to tell you, because -you didn’t pull the words out of my mouth either. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; that’s correct. - -Mr. PAUL. I spoke to you as I knew it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to add? - -Mr. PAUL. No—really, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your coming in and I am -sorry it took so long. - -Mr. PAUL. Well, that’s perfectly all right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much for coming in. - -Mr. PAUL. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR - -The testimony of George Senator was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 21, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. -Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s -Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of George Senator beginning at 9:45 -a.m. - -Mr. Senator, my name is Leon Hubert and this is Mr. Burt Griffin. We -are both members of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission. - -Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, -the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure -adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and -the joint resolution, we have both been authorized to take a sworn -deposition from you, Mr. Senator. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mr. Senator, the nature of the inquiry today -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about -Jack Ruby. - -Now, Mr. Senator, I think you have appeared today by virtue of written -request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff -of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of it? - -Mr. SENATOR. April 16, 1964. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I received it Saturday. I don’t know what date it was. -What was the date Saturday? - -Mr. HUBERT. Saturday would have been the 18th. - -Now, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a -3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the -rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive -this notice, and I ask you now whether you do waive the notice in the -event that you did not get the full 3 days. - -Mr. SENATOR. We will continue. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand by your answer that you say that you do waive -it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I waive it. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Senator. Will you rise now and take the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this -matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, -so help you God? - -Mr. SENATOR. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now will you state your full name? - -Mr. SENATOR. George Senator. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Senator? - -Mr. SENATOR. Fifty years old. I was born in Gloversville, N.Y. - -Mr. HUBERT. And when? - -Mr. SENATOR. September 4, 1913. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your present address, that is residence? - -Mr. SENATOR. Right now? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. 2255 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N.Y. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that your permanent residence? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean I just come up, you know, I just came to New -York about 2½ weeks ago and am staying with my sister temporarily. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to go to another place, to move to another -place? - -Mr. SENATOR. Eventually I will, yes; in New York, but momentarily I do -not know where. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are staying at your sister’s home -temporarily? - -Mr. SENATOR. Temporarily. - -Mr. HUBERT. But your purpose is to live in New York? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you will, when you find an apartment, some other place -to live, move out from your sister’s house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would go over briefly in your own words the -facts of your life, particularly where you lived, and your occupation, -beginning actually with your education. - -Mr. SENATOR. My education was up to the eighth grade. - -Mr. HUBERT. And where was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then after you finished the eighth grade, what did you do? - -Mr. SENATOR. I moved to New York and went to work. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean New York City? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; New York City. I lived with my sister, too. I mean I -moved in with my sister at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the same sister you are now living with? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is her name, by the way? - -Mr. SENATOR. Freda Weisberg, Mrs. A. J. Weisberg. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with her? - -Mr. SENATOR. Originally, let me say approximately about 3 years. I went -back and forth actually from New York back to home. Of course, I was -only in my teens then. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do? - -Mr. SENATOR. In New York I was working in a silk house, I was working -for a wholesaler where we delivered silk to the dress manufacturer. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you continued in that occupation—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Just in my young teens. - -Mr. HUBERT. Until you were how old? - -Mr. SENATOR. Possibly about 18, to the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were living with your sister as you said? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, at age 18, did your life take a change by way of -occupation and residence? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got sick a couple of times so every time I got -sick I went home to mother. I went back home. Of course, the distance, -was about 190 miles from my home town to New York City. At one time -I had pleurisy, went back home and stayed a year. Another time I had -peritonitis. I went back home again. - -Mr. HUBERT. This was after age 18 or before? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; this is now after 18. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it that after age 18 and for a period of 1 or -2 years you were not working because of illness and you were staying -mostly with your mother at home? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; well, my brother had a restaurant, or rather, still -does. He has a restaurant. I used to help him up there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? What place was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y. He had a restaurant by his name, by his -last name. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. On and off, this is a rough guess, it has been so many -years. I would probably say maybe a couple of years, something like -that. - -Mr. HUBERT. At which time you lived with your mother? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I lived home. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would that take us then in your life to about age 22? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say around there, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened after those days of your life? - -Mr. SENATOR. Then I went back. I can’t quote you the exact years, but I -went back to New York. - -Mr. HUBERT. City, you mean? - -Mr. SENATOR. New York City, and I went to work for a—I was jerking -sodas in the early thirties. That is when I was in my twenties yet then. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live during that period? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was still home with my sister. I went back. I shuttled -either from my sister to my mother. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not have any residence of your own? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live during that period? - -Mr. SENATOR. My sister? She lived in the Bronx, still does. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean the same address? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the address, or were there several? I am -talking now about this other period, you see, that is to say when you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I can think of the streets but I probably could not think -of the numbers. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, that is all right. Give us the streets. - -Mr. SENATOR. All right. When I originally came to New York it was on -Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would have been when you were about 12 years old? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I first came to New York when I was 15. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live then? - -Mr. SENATOR. On Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. Then from Davidson I -think I moved to Walton Avenue. These are all close by, these streets, -you know. I would probably say a distance of maybe 4, 5, or 6 blocks, -something of that nature. Then I lived there—I am trying to think now. -I have to jump back a lot of years and can’t think of these outright. - -Mr. HUBERT. We understand that and we understand therefore that your -answers must be approximations. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they are approximations. When I got this job jerking -sodas there, now I’m in my twenties already. Of course, this is in the -1930 years. I was approximately around 25 when I was working in the -Bronx jerking sodas and still living with my sister. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was around 1938, I take it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, and 1939; 1938 and 1939. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the place at which you worked? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, sure, J. S. Krums, chocolatiers. That is on the Grand -Concourse. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say I may have been there around 2 years. -Now this is roughly guessing. Then the place went out on strike and I -went out of a job. Then from there, two other fellows who were employed -with us, we all went down to Florida. We went down to Florida for the -winter and got a job there for $14 a week and stayed all winter, then -we come back again. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work were you doing and who was your employer? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or employers? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember. It was a cafeteria with a soda -fountain and I worked at the soda fountain. It has been so many, many -years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who were the other two people that you went with? - -Mr. SENATOR. One fellow, his name was Ike Heilberun, and the other is—I -can’t remember his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen either of those two people in the last 10 or -20 years? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say—no, one I haven’t seen in many, many years. As -a matter of fact, I think even before the war. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which one, the one whose name you don’t remember? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the other one? - -Mr. SENATOR. The other I think the last time I saw him must have been -maybe around 6 years or 7 years ago. He is down in Florida. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work is he doing? - -Mr. SENATOR. He is in the stationery business, if he still is, I mean. -He was. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you met him in connection with work or socially or how, -that is 6 years ago? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; it happened to be I went down there. I went down -there for a vacation there. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you looked him up? - -Mr. SENATOR. And I looked him up and I found him and when I found him -he was in the stationery end. - -Mr. HUBERT. How extended was your visit with him then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, just casual. I would probably say maybe I saw him two -or three times. - -Mr. HUBERT. No business relations? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no business relations whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go back now and pick up the time when you came back -from Florida. I say “came back.” I assume you went back to New York. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went back to New York. - -Mr. HUBERT. And tell us again—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember if I stayed in New York or went back -home now, because I would say on and off I had worked for my brother at -various times. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your brother? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is his name? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jake Senator. Senator’s Restaurant in Gloversville, N.Y. I -worked on and off at his place many times. - -Mr. HUBERT. How far have you progressed in your own mind as to this -chronicle of your life? We are up to what year now that you were -working for your brother? - -Mr. SENATOR. At the time I enlisted. In other words, when the war broke -out I enlisted down at Albany, N.Y., at the Federal Building in Albany, -N.Y. That was in August of 1941, I believe. I think it was August 20 or -August 21, 1941, and I was with my brother at the time when I enlisted. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Admiral Hotel in Miami -Beach and the Times Square Cafeteria? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is it. That is the place, the Times Square -Cafeteria. - -Mr. HUBERT. And David and Elizabeth Rosner at the Astor Hotel? - -Mr. SENATOR. It could be possible. I just don’t remember. It could be -possible. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were in Miami and worked for several -people whose names I have mentioned during the winter of 1939–40 and -until about the end of the season in Miami Beach, I take it? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you enlist? - -Mr. SENATOR. I enlisted August 20 or 21 of 1941. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was before Pearl Harbor then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did or where you lived from the -summer of 1940? - -Mr. SENATOR. What is that? - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what occupation you had or where you lived -from the summer of 1940 when you returned from Miami to New York until -you entered into the service in August of 1941? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe I was back home with my brother. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is working for him? - -Mr. SENATOR. The restaurant, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service? - -Mr. SENATOR. I’ll have to read it, or I’ll let you read it. - -Mr. HUBERT. No: that is all right. You served for the duration of the -war, I suppose? You hand me now a little document which is a laminated -copy. - -Mr. SENATOR. The reason I handed you that is because I lost my original -and I am happy that I have got that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were honorably discharged from the Army of the United -States on September 9, 1945, given to you at the Separation Center, -Fort Dix, N.J? This reflects also that you were a staff sergeant. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That your serial number was 12006042, and that at the time -of your discharge you were with the 101st Bomber Fortress Squadron? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; when I came out. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then after you left the service in September of -1945, where did you go and what did you do? - -Mr. SENATOR. When I came back out of the service, this fellow Ike -Heilberun, who I mentioned living down there, we went into the -luncheonette business and lasted approximately about a year and lost -our shirts. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that? Is that the outfit called the -Denise Foods, Inc.? - -Mr. SENATOR. Where is that located? Do you have the location on that? - -Mr. HUBERT. 254 West 35th Street. - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember the name. I remember the street. That -is why I asked you. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that was a corporation formed by you and -this man you talked about? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We bought somebody out, that is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were occupied with that endeavor through most of -1946? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say approximately about that to the best of my -knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. And where did you live then? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was living—of course, I can’t remember if I got married -before that or after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But sometime along in there after you left the service, you -got married? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe I got married in January 1946, if I am not -mistaken. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the lady you married? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sherley Baren. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that? - -Mr. SENATOR. B-a-r-e-n. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you still married to her? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you divorced? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? Approximately. - -Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 7 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ago? - -Mr. SENATOR. Approximately, I’m not sure of the date. I’d say -approximately about that. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you lived together as man and wife -approximately for 10 years? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Seven years ago would be 1957. You said that you married -her in January of 1946. Maybe you did not live together that long. -Maybe the divorce came after you had physically separated. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Actually, we had been separated I would probably say -around 3 years, I think. I think it must have been around 3 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before the divorce? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I think that is it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any children of that marriage? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have one son 16 years old. - -Mr. HUBERT. He is now 16 years old? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is his name? - -Mr. SENATOR. Bobby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you divorced? - -Mr. SENATOR. Through the mail. She was in Miami and I was in Texas. - -Mr. HUBERT. But where were the divorce proceedings actually instituted? - -Mr. SENATOR. In Miami. - -Mr. HUBERT. She brought the divorce suit? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Has she remarried? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know to whom? - -Mr. SENATOR. His name is Milton Wechsler. I am not sure of the spelling -of it. I think it is W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r. I think that is how you spell it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they live? - -Mr. SENATOR. Coral Gables. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now would you tell us of your occupation and residences -after your marriage, say from January 1946 forward? - -Mr. SENATOR. After I went out of business, after my partner and I went -out of business, I moved down to Miami and I had two or three odd jobs -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. SENATOR. At these jobs, do you mean? - -Mr. HUBERT. No. - -Mr. SENATOR. Or Miami? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I stayed in Miami, I would say, around 7 or 8 years. As a -rough guess, something like that, offhand. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had a number of jobs during the first year that you got -there; is that right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do? - -Mr. SENATOR. Restaurant-type work. - -Mr. HUBERT. I notice that your social security records indicate that -you either had no earnings or at least that none were reported for the -second half of 1947 and the first half of 1948, approximately a year. -Can you explain that? - -Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948? - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, for the third and fourth quarters from -a social security point of view of 1947 and the first and second -quarters—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Of 1948? - -Mr. HUBERT. Of 1948, so it would be roughly from July 1947 to June of -1948 there were no earnings reported. - -Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948? - -Mr. HUBERT. After which—this may assist your memory—for the third -quarter of 1948, that is say from July on, you report having worked at -the Lake Carrolton Club Grill in Pike. N.H. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, perhaps if you remember working in New Hampshire, you -can back off and tell us what happened in that year when there were no -earnings reported. This may assist you too. The social security records -show that in the first quarter of 1947, that would have been January, -February, and March, you apparently worked for the T-A Hensroost. - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe that was the first job I had when I got down in -Miami, if I am not mistaken. I think that was the first job I got. That -was an open stand on the oceanfront. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that you worked there actually for the -first 6 months? - -Mr. SENATOR. At the Hensroost? - -Mr. HUBERT. Of 1947. - -Mr. SENATOR. At Hensroost? I can’t quote how long I worked there, but I -know that I worked there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now then, perhaps we can reconstruct the thing, because -you apparently left there at the Hensroost in midsummer of 1947, and -then you pick up in midsummer of 1948 in New Hampshire, and it is the -intervening year that I would like to have you cover. - -Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. Oh, then I think after that, yes, I was out -of a job for a while and I don’t recall how long. Then I got a job in -another little luncheonette for a while and I don’t know how long that -was. - -Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did not have enough earnings to require -reporting them, you see. What I am trying to do is assist your memory. -Do you recall leaving Miami Beach to go to New Hampshire? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; I remember going. I don’t remember what year, -but I remember going, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time of the year, whatever year it was? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went there for one summer. - -Mr. HUBERT. For the season? - -Mr. SENATOR. The season; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your wife went with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. She stayed in Miami? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you finished the season there, what happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I come back and I was—I’m trying to think. What year -was that, 1940-what? - -Mr. HUBERT. It was the last half of 1948. Perhaps I can assist your -memory too by pointing out that your social security records indicate -that you worked for T-A Troops. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is the place I was trying to mention to you but -I couldn’t think of it. Now I don’t remember if I worked for that place -after I come back or before. That is the thing I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. You worked for that place quite a length of time, I believe. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long? Do you remember? - -Mr. SENATOR. Gee, I don’t remember how long I worked there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live when you were working for Troops? - -Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace. - -Mr. HUBERT. Miami Beach? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; Miami. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the restaurant was in Miami Beach? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. On Collins Avenue? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You lived in Miami City itself? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with your wife then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what your next move was? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe my next move is I got a job selling. I was -broken in selling women’s apparel, if I recall right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Women’s apparel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before we leave the Miami Beach situation, what was -the cause of your leaving Miami Beach and the Miami area, because -apparently you did? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I went to Texas? - -Mr. HUBERT. No, when you left Miami you did not go directly to Texas, -did you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure. Come this May 15, and I think I am pretty well on -the date, I have been in Texas 10 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you moved to Texas in 1954? - -Mr. SENATOR. May of 1954. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Rhea Manufacturing Co.? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; out of Milwaukee, Wis. That was my start. Is that in -the year of 1950, something like that? I don’t remember, 1949, 1948? - -Mr. HUBERT. The social security records indicate 1951. - -Mr. SENATOR. Is that what it is? I just don’t remember. It could be -1951. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were working for Rhea Manufacturing Co., and the -records also show that you worked for Smoler Bros., Inc., in Chicago. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. The Rhea Manufacturing Co. was in Milwaukee, Wis. Did you -live in Milwaukee? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And in Chicago? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the -only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when -they called the people in for sales meetings. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then? - -Mr. SENATOR. In Miami. - -Mr. HUBERT. That same residence? - -Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your area, sales area? - -Mr. SENATOR. Florida. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just Florida? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You sold women’s apparel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale? - -Mr. SENATOR. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers. - -Mr. HUBERT. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during -the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate -between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley’s, whose address is given as -144 East Flagler in Miami. - -Mr. SENATOR. Hartley’s is a large—it almost looks like a department -store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for both? - -Mr. SENATOR. The only time I worked for Hartley’s was, I think it -was either one or two seasons. I don’t remember which. Just for the -Christmas holidays only. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you did work for Hartley’s, did you leave Smoler’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Smoler’s continued right on? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or -something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I -would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something -like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. These records also indicate that actually you worked for -Smoler’s out of Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your -territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Smoler’s is the one who forced me to Texas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that. - -Mr. SENATOR. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex., -and it happened to be I was in Atlanta, Ga., and it happened to be on a -Friday, I recall this very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn’t -imagine what he was calling me for. He said, “George, we are releasing -a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas.” And I didn’t want to -go. But he said, “You are going.” So I wound up in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you -remember the year, the month? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. 1954? - -Mr. SENATOR. Because I have been there—come next month, it will be 10 -years I have been there. - -Mr. HUBERT. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in -May of 1954, on a Friday? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Actually, May 15, I think you said. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did your wife go with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been living together up to that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that the cause of your separation? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is. - -Mr. HUBERT. She never did go to Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go, and I had a job to hold down. - -Mr. HUBERT. She kept the child? - -Mr. SENATOR. She kept the child. - -Mr. HUBERT. And still has it? - -Mr. SENATOR. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been -a possibility if I didn’t go—I only say possibility—that I could have -been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a -possibility. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to -work, I take it, for Smoler’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various -places where you lived? - -Mr. SENATOR. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels, -from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the -State of Texas. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your territory there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Texas. - -Mr. HUBERT. The whole of Texas? - -Mr. SENATOR. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until -I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with -that there I said this is not for me, because I can’t make it on only -part of Texas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that comes a little later. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your -various addresses just roughly. - -Mr. SENATOR. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I -don’t remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the -street. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. SENATOR. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can’t -think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say, I’d have to guess, I -would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I’m not sure now. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it an apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was an apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with a couple other boys. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who were they? - -Mr. SENATOR. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he -was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician. - -Mr. HUBERT. He played the instrument called the xylophone? - -Mr. SENATOR. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What -is the one that is made out of wood? - -Mr. HUBERT. Marimba? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood? - -Mr. HUBERT. As a musical instrument? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. A percussion instrument? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did he work? - -Mr. SENATOR. He played wherever he got engagements. He got booked -locally, out of town. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was the other one? - -Mr. SENATOR. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name -was Mort Seder. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he do? - -Mr. SENATOR. He sells men’s apparel, traveling salesman. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you maintained contact with either of those? - -Mr. SENATOR. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I -heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale -by the sea. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the other one? - -Mr. SENATOR. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of -course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would -probably say in the last 2 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him often prior to that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you lived together initially? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then lived together after that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I’m trying to figure how we broke -up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place. -He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he -couldn’t stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that -time. So we lived together. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that -place? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced -around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence -at the McKinney Street address. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that broke up? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to -another place. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was on Shadyside Lane. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a -year, with a guess again, something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is you and Seder? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Seder. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Columbia Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a -couple of years. I’m not sure now. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were still with Seder then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place. - -Mr. HUBERT. So he left you, as it were? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address? - -Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then what happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I’m -trying to figure where I went from there. - -Mr. HUBERT. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which -you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether -you then—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there for a while. - -Mr. HUBERT. You stayed there for a while alone? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I had my own place. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or -were you alone? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I moved in with somebody else. I’m trying to think -where, though. - -Mr. HUBERT. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived -with? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I moved to the Oasis. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that an apartment house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these are all apartment houses—the various places. -They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe -that is where I moved next. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you share that apartment with? - -Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and -Kenny—I can’t think of his last name. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me? - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I -moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got -there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can’t think of what -year. Do you have a listing of it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler’s, or -rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler’s after July -of 1958. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when -I got through with Smoler’s, in 1958. I don’t remember when I was with -Smoler’s that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have -been living there yet. I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last -place was at the Oasis. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live? - -Mr. SENATOR. Where I moved to? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I think, I’m not sure now but I think from -the Oasis, I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all -over, if I recall right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you working with Smoler’s then? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m not sure I went from the Oasis. I don’t remember -if I—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if this will assist your memory. The social -security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which -would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings -were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of -1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what -you were doing and where you were living for those 3½ years, starting -from July of 1958 until apparently—— - -Mr. SENATOR. July of 1958? - -Mr. HUBERT. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when -you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas. -That is 3½ years there and I would like to know just what you were -doing and where you were living? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know if I can put them all together right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do the best you can. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don’t -remember if I was still with Smoler’s then. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case you moved to the Oasis? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I moved to the Oasis. - -Mr. HUBERT. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler’s whenever it was, -you got on the road. - -Mr. SENATOR. Wait; after I left Smoler’s, I had a couple of odd jobs -traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines -and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds, -and then I finally got back with Rhea again. - -Mr. HUBERT. R-h-e-a? - -Mr. SENATOR. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Milwaukee? - -Mr. SENATOR. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don’t remember -what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could -be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I -was unemployed. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying -normal expenses? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you living in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. All that period? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the -3½ years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change -your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling? - -Mr. SENATOR. January of 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get this part settled. From the time you left -Smoler’s, you were definitely living in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent -nature other than in Dallas any place else? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that even though you were traveling during those years, -doing odd jobs or for Rhea’s, you always lived in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying -with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long ago? - -Mr. SENATOR. But actually, that still wasn’t a permanent residence -because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I -used to help him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is he? - -Mr. SENATOR. His name is George Hamrah. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell it? - -Mr. SENATOR. H-a-m-r-a-h. - -Mr. HUBERT. He still lives in Houston? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he still lives in Houston. - -Mr. HUBERT. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you -always lived in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the -Oasis on? - -Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I -went to Jack Ruby’s, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack. - -Wait, I’ll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or -March, I’m not sure now, of 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval. - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes, -I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different -places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed. - -Mr. HUBERT. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers -in the Oasis. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with -at the Oasis. - -Mr. SENATOR. I gave you the names—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Of two of them, as I recall. - -Mr. SENATOR. Of one apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Right. Then another apartment I lived in, the fellow, his -name was Frank Irwin. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. - -Mr. SENATOR. The other one was James Young, and the other one was—this -is all in one apartment. I can’t think of the other one’s name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen them in the last few years? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the last time I saw any of them was around the latter -part of last year. - -Mr. HUBERT. Even the man whose name you don’t know? - -Mr. SENATOR. Even the man whose name I don’t know. I’m trying to think -of his name. I shouldn’t forget it. I think it is John. - -Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it will come to you in a minute. We will come back -to it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I shouldn’t forget his name as long as I’ve known him. I -just can’t put my finger—— - -Mr. HUBERT. But you lived with those people at the Oasis? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. At various apartments? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Until January or February of 1962 when you moved in with -Jack Ruby; is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was Ruby living then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Ruby was living at the Marsalla— - -Mr. HUBERT. Palace? - -Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch of apartments there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Marsalla South? - -Mr. SENATOR. It may have been Marsalla South. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is actually a Marsalis Street; is there not? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but there is an apartment, a few begin with Marsalla, -Marsalla Apartments or Marsalla South. This one here was on Marsalla on -the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was on Marsalis Street? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with Jack then? - -Mr. SENATOR. At that time I stayed, I lived with him approximately 5 to -6 months; something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else live there with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; just Jack and myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion for your leaving him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I left him because I had a chance to go into the postcard -business. - -Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate to leaving Jack? You still lived in -Dallas; did you not? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. I never left Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live after you left Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. After I left who? - -Mr. HUBERT. Ruby. Now, incidentally, I judge from the dates that that -would have been around in September. - -Mr. SENATOR. August. - -Mr. HUBERT. August of 1962? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; August. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then? - -Mr. SENATOR. I moved in with a fellow whose name was Stan Corbat. - -Mr. HUBERT. And where was that apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was on Maple Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say that the reason why you moved from Jack’s was -because you got a chance to be a salesman in the postcard business? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate, how does your getting this employment -relate to your moving from Jack’s apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack likes to live alone in the overall picture. First of -all, it is an interference of the time that I wake up and the time that -he goes to bed which don’t coincide. That is part. And then Jack don’t -live too clean. I mean he is a type—in other words, he comes home, he -is reading a newspaper, on the floor, if he is in the bathroom the -newspaper goes on the floor and things of that nature. Though he was -very clean about himself, he wasn’t clean around the apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. I judge from what you tell me then that your real reasons -for moving were those that you just mentioned rather than the fact that -you got employment selling postcards? Is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Why I moved? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Please run that back again. - -Mr. HUBERT. I say I judge from what you have said that the real -reason for your moving from the apartment with Jack in 1962 was your -dissatisfaction with the living conditions rather than that you got a -job selling postcards? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not necessarily. I mean that is part of it. That is -not necessarily it; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. How does the postcard job, selling postcards, contribute or -how did it contribute to the fact that you had to move from Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I didn’t have to. I didn’t have to; but this way here -I started to get self-sustaining a little bit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. So you had a steady job? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; see, the other way, when I was living with Jack, of -course, I was helping him at the club. I was helping him at the club, -and, of course, I abided by everything he said and did. - -Mr. HUBERT. So the reasons for moving then, were a combination of -factors. One, that you were dissatisfied generally with the living -conditions as you have indicated? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is only partially it. I had a chance to go out. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were financially better off and you had a chance to -go with Corbat, and you did? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay with Corbat? - -Mr. SENATOR. When I went in with Corbat, of course, he only had a -one-bedroom apartment and I had to sleep on the couch again. I slept -on so many couches lately. So I told Stan, I told this friend of mine, -Corbat, when we were staying on Maple Avenue, that just as soon as I -get a little extra money I want to get a two-bedroom apartment and that -is where I moved into this last apartment, 225 South Ewing. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was about when? - -Mr. SENATOR. I moved in there, I believe it was the latter part of -November of 1962, we found a nice two-bedroom apartment that was very -reasonable. I told Jack about it and Jack moved next door. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he moved later than you, didn’t he? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, see, I moved in first. - -Mr. HUBERT. With Corbat? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Yes; first I went in alone, no furniture or nothing. I -moved in alone and I was there approximately about a week or something -like that, and Corbat stayed over at the other place because he wanted -to finish the balance of the month out. He wanted his last days in -there, you know, for we paid for the rent, and then he moved in right -after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. He moved in with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was in November of 1962? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did Ruby move in? - -Mr. SENATOR. He moved in around that same time. - -Mr. HUBERT. But after you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say within the week I would probably -say, something like that, within that week. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you stayed there until when? - -Mr. SENATOR. The unfateful day. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t live with Corbat all that while? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I lived with Corbat from the time we moved in there -until August. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, the reason Corbat moved out—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Ruby had another apartment in the same building? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the -other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August -8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn’t handle it -alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle. - -Mr. HUBERT. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby’s -apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was the first week in November of 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. By the way, would you state for the record what was the -number of the apartment you and Corbat had? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The -apartment was Granberry. You mean on Maple Avenue? - -Mr. HUBERT. No. - -Mr. SENATOR. Room number? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on South Ewing. - -Mr. SENATOR. 223 South Ewing. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat -which was next door, you say, to Jack’s and what was Ruby’s number. I -want to get that in the record. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think Ruby’s was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were next to one another, or opposite? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is -one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. And they are numbered in sequence? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207, -something like that. I think it was 206 and 207. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, for a moment, let’s go back to Frank Irwin, who was -one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a -couple years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing when you last saw him? - -Mr. SENATOR. What does he do? - -Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing then? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about James Young? - -Mr. SENATOR. James Young works for a finance—I think it is a finance -corporation called Warner. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El -Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City, -and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time? - -Mr. SENATOR. At night. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; what day? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time of the year, what month? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I think it was in December. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think so, in December 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. When had you seen him prior to that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that time? I don’t remember. It could have been a -couple years, I guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a third -man—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whose name you couldn’t remember at the time. Can you -remember his name now? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack Loftus. - -Mr. HUBERT. L-o-f-t-u-s? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in -Hillsboro, if he is still there. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in -Hillsboro. - -Mr. HUBERT. Texas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen -him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don’t -remember if it was after that or before that. I don’t remember that, -but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This -part I do remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the same day you saw Young? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I’ll -tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby’s club. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were looking for you for what reason? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. For what reason were they looking? Why were they looking -for you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them, -you know, for a while. Nothing particular. - -Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the -apartment with Ruby. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was national news. - -Mr. SENATOR. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident -somehow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw -them? - -Mr. SENATOR. These two boys? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in December now. I don’t remember if it was -a week, two or three. I’m not sure. I just don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day? - -Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I just can’t think of when it was. Possibly. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus? - -Mr. SENATOR. Before? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since -you had seen Loftus? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me put it this way: I can’t quote it. I really can’t -quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to -come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving, -Frank Irwin. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the friend’s name? - -Mr. SENATOR. Frank Irwin. - -Mr. HUBERT. I-r-w-i-n? - -Mr. SENATOR. I-r-w-i-n, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. SENATOR. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across -him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he know Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he knew him casually. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if they knew Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Stanley Corbat know him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him. -But, of course, Stan never went to his club unless I took him there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out -of the apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where is he living now, in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number, but I think he is living on -Munger Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you come in contact with him, socially? - -Mr. SENATOR. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across -him once in a delicatessen. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just once? - -Mr. SENATOR. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a -delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact, -I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings. - -Mr. HUBERT. What does he do? - -Mr. SENATOR. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women’s -budget dresses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which department store? - -Mr. SENATOR. Titche. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main -Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself. - -Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by -way of charges? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have -been asked many times before on this already, that one night—this goes -back maybe 3 or 4 years ago—there was another chap and I, we went to a -cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the -street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in -Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we -went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in -the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were -drunk. Now I wasn’t any more drunk than he was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they charge you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I -had nothing to sober up with. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they follow up with any charges? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; we were fined $15. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were fined? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was $15. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only time? - -Mr. SENATOR. The only time in my life. - -Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever been arrested? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. There have been no other charges? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable -discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never. - -Mr. HUBERT. During the war? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never, none whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion -to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who -would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Professional? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any gambling houses? - -Mr. SENATOR. Me? No; of course I’m certain there must be sneak gambling -you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you -do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it -was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don’t remember just -what year it was. They just clamped down, you know. - -Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was -open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever done any gambling? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m no gambler. When you put it this way, I will -put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or -something like that? - -Mr. HUBERT. No. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when -I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What -other recreation did we have? So we gambled. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you -obtained money to live during the 2½ years that you were apparently -unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from -July of 1958 until the first of 1962. - -Mr. SENATOR. What years? - -Mr. HUBERT. According to the records, there were no earnings reported -for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July -roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962. - -Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had -me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the -Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. - -Mr. SENATOR. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They -allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did. - -When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when -I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don’t know how -to explain this, I really don’t know how to explain it to you, I didn’t -file. Why I didn’t file I can’t even answer, I don’t know why I didn’t -file. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part. - -You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that was with Rhea. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were with Smoler’s a long time. What caused you to lose -your job there? - -Mr. SENATOR. With Smoler Brothers? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. As I say, they weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy -with them. - -First of all, I’ll tell you they had cut down the territory and they -were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume -house, and the type operation was, I don’t know if I classify, if I -tell you $3.75 a dress, I don’t know if it means anything to you or -not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have -got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they -weren’t happy. And I wasn’t happy because they had cut my territory -down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn’t making any money anyhow -over that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you had times with Smoler’s when you had done -considerably better? - -Mr. SENATOR. There were times that I did better. I don’t say that I did -a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward? - -You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler’s, -you go to Rhea’s—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you -know that were nothing to speak of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Here is what I want to get at. - -Here is a period of 2½ years, you had to have some money to live on -or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about -that. - -Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and -I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for -them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed, -extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three, -two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and -they kept me for a while. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not pay any part of the rent? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is true for that whole 2½-year period? - -Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t two and a half. I would say it was approximately -a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don’t think it was 2½ years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and -Rhea? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think there was much time between them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say, 3 months? - -Mr. SENATOR. It’s hard for me to really guess. I’d have to make such a -fantastic guess I wouldn’t know if I was right or wrong. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don’t know how close I’d be -and if I told you 6 months I don’t know how far I’d be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while, -which didn’t last too long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Doing the same kind of work? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, doing the same kind of work. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Covering territory? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn’t stay with them -long and I wasn’t making any money with them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What company was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Junior Age. I don’t believe they are in business any more. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. It may have been 3 months. I don’t know, 2 months, 4 -months. I’m not sure. It wasn’t too long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a straight commission with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No, a draw against commission. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A draw against commission? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But if you didn’t make your draw, you were in the hole -with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow? - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for -next? - -Mr. SENATOR. I’m trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know -I did some odd things. I was with Rhea—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you -get into other lines? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I -worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me -going. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I -worked for Rhea. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did the Rhea employment last? - -Mr. SENATOR. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half, -I’m not sure now. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money off of that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Just a draw part. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for -Rhea, that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have -enough money then to pay your fair share? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I paid my fair share as long as I was—— - -Mr. HUBERT. So when you are talking about the handouts—— - -Mr. SENATOR. The handouts is when I was completely out. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any employment at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I was completely out. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was for about a year, year and a half? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say about a year and a half at a rough guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did that begin and when did that end, that year and a -half? Let’s look at it this way: You were not working at the time you -were living with Ruby, were you, that is to say you were not making any -money? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were not contributing? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Ruby gave me handouts. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Certainly. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that is a year and a half back from November of 1963, is -it not, roughly? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I was with this Volume Sales like you mentioned before. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I was with them. Now, I was with Volume for maybe about 9 -months, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the time that you were with Corbat. Was that on -a handout basis too, or did you pay your fair share then? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; with Corbat I paid him very little. I’ll tell you when -I paid him very little, though. I paid him very little when I first -moved in with him, because I had no money. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you got—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Then when I moved, when I was able to a little, we went on -a 50-50 basis. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved to South Ewing? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which was in August of 1962? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you making money at that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. The cards. My half of the rent was $62.50 a month and his -half. In other words, it ran about $15 a week, approximately. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you earned enough to pay your half by selling postcards? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in the postcards. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what business? What company is that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Texas Postcard & Novelty Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was sales manager, whatever that means. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962 until November of 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. What part of November? - -Mr. SENATOR. The latter part of November. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you ceased your employment with them after Oswald -was shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is when I fell apart with the incident. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were you making then? - -Mr. SENATOR. $75 a week, but $61.45, that is my actual draw. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was your actual draw? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In cash? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Roughly $250 a month? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you paid your half of the rent with Corbat? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; $15 a week, $16 a week, or whatever it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then when you lost that employment—just a minute; -you had not lost that employment at the time you moved in with Ruby, -because you say that that employment—— - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no; you mean prior to—— - -Mr. HUBERT. To the shooting. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were still working with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were still drawing that pay? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you mean when you said a little while ago that you -were on a handout basis with Ruby since you were making $250? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I am referring to the first time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. - -Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were living in another place? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. But with reference to the last time you lived with Ruby; -that is to say, commencing the beginning of November of 1963? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I was under pressure those 2 months because the rent—you -know, when you switch from $62.50 to $125 you are going broke. - -Mr. HUBERT. From the time you left Corbat until you moved with Ruby—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I struggled for the 2 months, and Jack Ruby said to move -in, so I moved in. - -Mr. HUBERT. And were you supposed to pay any part? - -Mr. SENATOR. With Jack, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. The arrangement was that you were not to pay anything? - -Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t to pay, but you know I would help him. I would -help him Fridays and Saturdays, or once in a while I would pop up -during a week night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you something to get it straight about this -Rhea Manufacturing Co. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they do? What did they make? - -Mr. SENATOR. They manufacture dresses and sportswear. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice your social security earnings record with Smoler -Bros., that there seemed to be times regularly where you did not report -any earnings from them, or they did not report any payments to you I -should say, to be more accurate. Was there something seasonal about -that business with Smoler Bros.? - -Mr. SENATOR. The type business? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; every season wasn’t good. In other words, let me -put it this way: When you get down to the latter part of the year, -you know, see, we are more so of a cotton housecoat, not a housecoat -but a cotton dress. You have seen these women wear these inexpensive -cotton dresses. They look like plaid variations. Well, this wasn’t a -big factor at that time of the year. In other words, our spring and our -summer was the best for us as far as selling goes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the spring and the summer were you selling for the -spring and summer seasons, or were you selling in the spring and summer -for the following season? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me explain it this way: I’m certain we are both on the -right track, but let me explain it this way. In other words, we will -start in May. In May your fall lines come out, see, come out, and you -start selling them in May. Some of them sell them in April, even. It -all depends who the manufacturer is and how fast they put them out. -Then your spring line—let’s see, from the fall line your spring line -will come out in, I think it’s August, August of the year. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we cannot get it this way. You never actually -ceased your employment with Smoler’s at any time until the final time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are periods from these reports that we have in -which Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you. What we -want to know, is: Is it a fact that you did not earn anything during -that period or did not even draw during that period, or have you any -explanation for the reason that Smoler’s apparently did not report any -earnings for you during several years in a row for certain quarters, -seemingly for the third and fourth quarter of each year, and why would -that be? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you always on a draw right along? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there some periods during each year when you did not -earn your draw? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes: there were many times I didn’t earn my draw. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything seasonal about that? Were there certain -times of the year when you were working when it regularly happened that -you did not earn your draw? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What times of the year did that tend to be when you did -not earn your draw? - -Mr. SENATOR. I cannot base it on any particular time or periods, but -there were many times, especially when you get chopped down a bit on -your loans. I have never made what you call any big money with them. I -was always, I would imagine, hitting probably around my draw part, or -there may have been times when I fell even behind. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to get to the time when you first met Jack Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I have a couple of questions. I would like to -clear up on some much earlier stuff before you get to that. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, where is Gloversville, N.Y.? What part of -New York State is that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Are you familiar with Albany? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. You are familiar with Schenectady? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. How about Amsterdam? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if I am not, if you tell us where it is. - -Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t been there in so many years I may not have the -right direction now. All I know is I am trying to figure what the -locality is. It is 30 miles from Schenectady. In other words, it is off -the beaten path a bit from your main lines. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is upstate New York? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say in the locale of the foothills -of the Adirondacks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I perhaps did not catch this, but there was a period -in 1947 when you went to work in New Hampshire? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go to New Hampshire? - -Mr. SENATOR. I needed a job. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go there? - -Mr. SENATOR. The man who was running the Red Rooster—what was the name -of it again? - -Mr. HUBERT. The Hensroost. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Hensroost; he was up there for the summer. So he -got me a job up there for the summer. That was another time when I was -very much in need of a job. The type of work that I did up there, they -had a little place where the help used to come in, you know, to eat or -drink or buy cigars, separation from the guest part. This is the part I -worked, made them hamburgers or whatever it may be of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I do not have anything else, Mr. Hubert, if you want to go -on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, it was in May of 1954, almost 10 -years ago, that you moved to Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How soon after moving to Dallas did you meet Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say it may have been—I would say approximately -about within a year or approximately about a year; I’m not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met -him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or -take a few. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him. - -Mr. SENATOR. How I met him? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to—I am -certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is where, you know—at that time this is all Jack Ruby -had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen -him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else -walked in, Jack Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how -your friendship or acquaintance developed? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know; -it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or -something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, “Hi, -George”; “Hi, Jack, how are you?” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first -meeting? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time -that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous -to that it has always been, “Jack, how are you?” wherever I met him; -having coffee, he always offered to buy me something to eat. - -Mr. HUBERT. You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago -as casual? - -Mr. SENATOR. Strictly casual, like I’d meet any other friend anywhere -else. - -Mr. HUBERT. It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately -developed, in any case. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not go to the Vegas very much? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t go to the Vegas very much. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the time you indicated that there was a change in that -casual relationship to something else 2 years ago. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what brought that about? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. (Brief recess.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You -understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the -same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at -the very beginning of it, and further that you are under the same oath -that you were prior to the recess. Is that agreeable with you? You -understand that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t lie because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What? - -Mr. SENATOR. I said I am not lying because I didn’t bring a lawyer with -me. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see -if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to -have a lawyer? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get it straight. - -Mr. SENATOR. I say that I didn’t come here to lie; so I don’t need a -lawyer. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when -a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into -something else. Why don’t you just tell us about that in your own words? - -Mr. SENATOR. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got -through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up -to Jack’s place, his other place, which is the Carousel. Previous to -that there was the Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I -used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other -words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2½ years ago. I used -to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they -don’t let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember actually when that opened? - -Mr. SENATOR. Which? - -Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the -Carousel? - -Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t around for the change, but I would say that it -was over 2 years ago. Now just how much over, I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be -approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or -6 months? - -Mr. SENATOR. That it changed to the Carousel? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote that. I couldn’t even quote it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to -come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales? - -Mr. SENATOR. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work -for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a -salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume -Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things? - -Mr. SENATOR. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words, -you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on -them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different -sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key -chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that -nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that -nature. And when I traveled for him and I’d get back to town, he would -knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn’t stable with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you -say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn’t have membership in the -Sovereign Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably -attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the -Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts, -singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease performance? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had -the Sovereign Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when -Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I knew some of them; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any of those? - -Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn’t afford them, number -one. I was never a member because I couldn’t afford membership. I -wasn’t making that kind of money. But I’d either go up with a friend -who was a member or something of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more -attractive to you than some of the other clubs? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and -Jack said like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all -the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say -“Come on up, be my guest,” free admission. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the -time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go -in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and -the Adolphus don’t you or you heard of it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre -Lounge? - -Mr. SENATOR. As of recent? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and -Jack would let you in. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn’t know the -manager, who the manager was at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Abe Weinstein? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I don’t know him that well. I know who he is, I -know him casually. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you visited his clubs? - -Mr. SENATOR. On very rare occasions. Abe’s place I have probably been -up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four -times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many -times. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your -casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more -than that commencing roughly about 2½ years ago when you began to go -to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times -before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned -that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving -relationship let’s say in the sense that you got to know each other -better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened -you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from -there. - -Mr. SENATOR. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed -again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature, -he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place -to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when -he knew I was broke. He said “George you can stay with me.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from -another source? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I told him I was down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask to go in with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why. I don’t think I did. At that time -Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had -changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there -I don’t know because I wasn’t intimate with him at that time, that -intimate. And he went into this burlesque business. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the Carousel you mean? - -Mr. SENATOR. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never -been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the -Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of -that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck -them he has really got something to buck. - -Mr. HUBERT. So he was having difficulties and you were too? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t have an apartment at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that situation go on? - -Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last too long, because as business started to -pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he -had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to -assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment -which he then had? - -Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what I say. - -Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. But he was -always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean he gave you cash? - -Mr. SENATOR. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money -or he would just take me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just do what? - -Mr. SENATOR. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He’d pay -for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature. - -Mr. HUBERT. But then he did get an apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. He got an apartment but I don’t remember just how long -after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that -apartment with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don’t -remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the -apartment. I can’t remember just how long I stayed up at the club with -him. It wasn’t too long, though. I don’t remember how long. But anyhow -he got this apartment on South Ewing. - -Mr. HUBERT. On South Ewing? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; Marsalis. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved in with him right away? - -Mr. SENATOR. Then I went in with him. Now I don’t remember if I went -in with him—I don’t remember how I went in with him. I can’t place it -together but I know I was there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to pay any rent? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; but I helped him in the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What -kind of work did you do at the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I’d -take cash for him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is on the front door? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; on the front door. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the $2 admission charge? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what other jobs did you do? - -Mr. SENATOR. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course -of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick -up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go -shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do the clean-up jobs? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. He had a clean-up boy. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was he? - -Mr. SENATOR. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first went there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I -think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until -the time the club closed down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you -were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out -by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning -did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He -slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the -afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather -was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan -for swimming. Or he’d just mope around the place or hang around the -apartment house. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out -at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me -up, I had to do something, see. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what I had in mind. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave at the same time that he did? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would leave when he left. - -Mr. HUBERT. Because you were both going back to the same house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about going there? You went earlier? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in -the apartment longer than I could. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you normally go to work then? - -Mr. SENATOR. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around -between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never had to go in midafternoon though? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was -rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of -that sort? - -Mr. SENATOR. Andrew. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andrew get there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around -1 o’clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while -too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got -married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I -guess, maybe a little longer. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that -was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions -and so you moved in with Corbat? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which -would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of -1963—is that right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack then? - -Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved out of Jack’s apartment and took up -with Corbat. - -Mr. SENATOR. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there. -At rare times I would help him at the door. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you had a job then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the -door, things of that kind. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period -he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with -Corbat, is that right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic -establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you. - -Mr. SENATOR. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got -along excepting when he hollered at me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had -when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a wagon. - -Mr. HUBERT. A station wagon? - -Mr. SENATOR. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Volkswagen microbuses? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a passenger car? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a -box, you know. I don’t know what you call them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it to hold goods you were displaying? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in -the back, the back part. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it your car or did it belong to the company? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was the company. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time -to time. How often about, just roughly? - -Mr. SENATOR. Two or three times a week. It all depends. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you would help there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you helped did he pay you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for -me when I was down and out, and it wasn’t that many hours or it wasn’t -difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the -things he did for me, when I was down and out. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then I think we have covered the time when -Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out -and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment -next door. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had to give up the automobile at that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I had the automobile until January. - -Mr. HUBERT. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with -these people until after Oswald was shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But at the stress of the—— - -Mr. SENATOR. But the stresses. - -Mr. HUBERT. The stress of having to carry the whole apartment when -Corbat left was one of the factors that put pressure upon you, is that -right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is the pressure of the extra amount of money. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not own an automobile of your own I take it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, when I was traveling the road; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you owned an automobile? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, it must have been about 4 or 5 years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think the last one I had was, I think it was a Buick. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t remember if I sold it or traded it in. - -Mr. HUBERT. You traded it in for what? - -Mr. SENATOR. I had a Buick once. I mean I had a few Buicks. When I say -a few I mean there might have been about 3, and I had a Ford once I -believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case you haven’t owned a car of your own for about 4 -or 5 years? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the last car you owned you must have sold it I suppose. -You couldn’t have traded it in because then you would have gotten a new -car. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to think what was I doing with the last car. I -think the last car, I think I lost it on payments. I couldn’t keep up -the payments if I am not mistaken, if that is the one. I think that is -it. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt a second to clarify one thing in my mind. -You mentioned this Volkswagen. The last time you had it was in January? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what year? - -Mr. SENATOR. 1964. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a couple of months ago? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Coming to the first part of November 1963, was that when -you moved in with Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I believe it was somewhere around the 1st or 2d of -November, something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then I suppose you went back to the routine of the general -mode of living and working with him that had existed before? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; then I was helping him, I mean I was staying with -him, so I was helping him on weekends. Once in a while I would pop in -maybe on a weekday. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your operation—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Just at the door. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your operation insofar as the Carousel is concerned was not -like it was before? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Not on a daily basis? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just at night, not every night? - -Mr. SENATOR. Normally I would come in on Friday and Saturday. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you were still at your job? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after all I was staying there and felt he was -entitled to something, you know, so I’d come in there and help him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist in the cooking or anything of that sort? - -Mr. SENATOR. There was no food. The only food there was, they make -pizzas once in a while. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean at the Carousel, I mean at the house, the -apartment. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; but I couldn’t cook right for him. He is a funny -guy in cooking. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any cooking there at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. If I don’t broil right for him, if I make him eggs, -it has got to be so much of this in the butter because he was watching -his diet, and I got so tired of it I says, “Make your own eggs.” You -just couldn’t make anything right for him. And all meats had to be -broiled. He don’t believe in fried stuff. And he was just hard to cook -for. - -Mr. HUBERT. The routine then I suppose is that you were working and -you would come back to the apartment after normal working hours, which -would be around when, 5 or 6 in the evening? - -Mr. SENATOR. To cook for him? That would be rare. I got away from that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am getting to the normal routine as to your relationship. -You had a regular working day I take it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which started off at 8 or so in the morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And ended up at 5 or 6 in the evening? He, on the other -hand, would be sleeping in the morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I understand would leave the apartment after you got -back at night or before, as a normal thing? - -Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t always necessarily that I came home between 5 -and 6 because many times I stayed out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of a pattern at all to your living in -point of time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; there is no particular pattern. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about weekends? Was that different? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. First of all I always get up before -he does, whether I am working or otherwise. - -Mr. HUBERT. You would help him at the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. On weekends and if you did I suppose you came back about -the same time he did? - -Mr. SENATOR. At night? Yes. But as far as I getting up in the morning, -I always got up much earlier than he did. It was just natural. It was -natural for me to get up, and it doesn’t make any difference what -particular time I went to bed at 2, 3, 4 or 5, I am of that nature that -I get up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular rising time? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say 7, 7:30, sometimes 6 in the morning. A lot of -times it would probably depend what time I go to bed. If I go to bed at -10 o’clock at night I probably wake up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about on weekends? - -Mr. SENATOR. On weekends? Say like a Sunday. I would probably wake up -at 7:30 or 8 o’clock in the morning on Sunday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Has it been your habit when you get up in the morning you -make yourself a breakfast or what do you do? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you, when I wake up in the morning I want -coffee, but I don’t have that appetite in the morning when I get up. It -is very rare that I will eat the moment I wake up in the morning. But I -get hungry maybe an hour or two later or something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So on a working day would you go to work, grab a cup of -coffee and go to work? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; on working days I go downtown and have my coffee. -I don’t even make it there. Never. I don’t sit there and make coffee in -the morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular place that you eat at regularly? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where? - -Mr. SENATOR. I had a hangout. The Eat Well. There is three places that -I normally went to. Eat Well, I always went there every morning, even -on Sunday, and then the Chefette. Down where the Chefette is in the -Hotel Adolphus and then the Walgren also in the Hotel Adolphus. Those -are the three places I normally was always in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any regular place where you ate lunch? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there is no particular—I mean I don’t pick my spot -where I eat lunch. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do about dinners? - -Mr. SENATOR. Dinners I normally would like to go home, for meal, but I -ate more when I was living with Stan or by myself than I did with Jack, -because I just can’t cook of his nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack in the habit of coming home for dinner? - -Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times, yes; and then I would probably say maybe; -on rare occasions, no. It wasn’t necessarily that he had to be home for -dinner because there were many times he also ate out. But he was hard -on food, even at a restaurant he was not easy. It had to be so-so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the shopping? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack did the shopping. I couldn’t do no shopping. I can’t -shop for him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack in effect would buy the meat for the meals and he -would plan the meals? Is that the idea? Then you would cook them? - -Mr. SENATOR. He would buy what would suit himself, and if I didn’t like -it that is too bad. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a regular routine of going to a grocery store -once a week and going shopping for a week or how did it work? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say something like that. Of course, it -all depends, you know, how much he is buying, how much he is going to -buy. But he always had a lot of meat. He always kept his refrigerator -pretty well filled. He’d buy grapefruits, half a grapefruit and -grapefruit juice like crazy. Holy God, you know he’d wake up in the -morning, the number one thing was that grapefruit. If he bought -grapefruit which he’d normally buy 6, 8, 10 of them at a clip, he would -cut up about 2 of them, 2 at once mind you, and put them through the -wringer and wring them down, you know, the machine he had home and -drink solid grapefruit juice, but from 2 of them, 2 whole grapefruits, -unless he had the frozen grapefruits which he diluted with water. This -is number one before he did anything, the grapefruit bit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this pattern prevail both when you were living with -him the first time and when you were living with him the second time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was there some difference in your relationship? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no difference. His way of living was set -before I ever heard of Jack Ruby, his way of eating. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He would do all the shopping? Who would decide on any -particular evening what the meal was going to be? - -Mr. SENATOR. I had no say. I had no say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he call you in advance to let you know when he was -coming back for dinner? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; no call; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do? Did you have a time when you liked to -eat, if Jack wasn’t there that you would? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he wasn’t there then I’d help myself or even if I made -a couple of eggs or whatever it might be. Sure, I mean there was no -particular time that I had to sit down and eat with him, because if I -wasn’t there he ain’t waiting for me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you felt like eating dinner, would you go into the -icebox and pull out a steak and make some potatoes and do what you -wanted to do? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; sure, sure. If he wasn’t there, look, I am not going -to sit there and wait for him, you know. And he certainly isn’t sitting -there waiting for me, because I probably don’t know what time he is -going to be home and he probably doesn’t know what time I am going to -be home or sometimes we may be there together. But there was no set -pattern. There was no particular time. - -Mr. HUBERT. I gather from all this, from the fact that your -acquaintanceship with Ruby ripened into friendship, and ripened further -in the fact that you were sharing an apartment together, that you got -to know the man pretty well as a man, and knew his habits? - -Mr. SENATOR. I knew something about them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. His likes and dislikes. You expressed an opinion about -that already and that is what I would like to get to now with reference -to particular areas. You have mentioned the question of dogs, and I -would like you to tell us about what you know of him with reference to -dogs and his attitude towards them and so forth. - -Mr. SENATOR. He had enough of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that you mean he had plenty of them? - -Mr. SENATOR. He had a few dogs. - -Mr. HUBERT. All the time that you have known him was that so or when -did that begin? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know when it began because he had dogs the -first time that I got close to him or acquainted with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is about 2½ years ago? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know anything about the dogs? - -Mr. SENATOR. Previous to that I didn’t know anything about dogs before. - -Mr. HUBERT. I guess the number of dogs varied, didn’t it? - -Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be why he had so many dogs, his dog Sheba, -who was attacked by one of Sheba’s sons at a later date, gave birth to -six at one time. What are you going to do? He had dogs. - -Mr. HUBERT. So he kept them. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He didn’t want to give them away. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep them? - -Mr. SENATOR. They were born in the apartment. He had them in the -kitchen until they were old enough, you know, whatever age that they -might be, a month or two, and then he brought them down to the club -and he puts them way in the back room of the club. He used to bring -everybody in “See my dogs.” Of course, his pet was Sheba, which -everybody in this country knows. - -Mr. HUBERT. She was the mother? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the mother of the whole crew. So he wound up -with—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Sheba stay at the club or at his house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Both. Jack goes to the club, Sheba goes with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Sheba was always with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this was the only one. I would say on rare occasions -he would probably bring the other dog home or two, just overnight. - -Mr. HUBERT. He gave some of the dogs away didn’t he? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack had close to 10 dogs. He had about 9 or 10 dogs. -Don’t forget Sheba had six at one clip. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude towards these animals? Was it a -normal attitude that people have to dogs? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know people have mentioned it to me before in the past -and the quotations that I have heard though I have never heard them -from him though I have heard them otherwise like “My family” or “My -wife.” I have read these. I am certain everybody else has too or heard -it. But he liked dogs. To me this has no meaning. To me it has no -meaning when he says this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear these comments made by other people concerning -Ruby and his dogs prior to the shooting or afterwards? - -Mr. SENATOR. What? - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting or afterwards? - -Mr. SENATOR. Prior I don’t recollect. I don’t say—it had to be prior -to. No; it had to be prior. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have read perhaps a lot about the dogs—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Since the shooting? - -Mr. SENATOR. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his -Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I -don’t know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I’m not -sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi “I want you -to meet my family” or something like that. There was a quotation he -used. Now this may have been it, I’m not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there other people that you remember who commented to -you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that he -was—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I heard two things already. One was “my family” and one -was “my wife,” which absolutely has—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was -after, see. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior? - -Mr. SENATOR. The remarks were made after, that is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were -made after? - -Mr. SENATOR. After. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were -supposed to have occurred prior? - -Mr. SENATOR. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard. - -Mr. HUBERT. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the -shooting? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these -animals? - -Mr. SENATOR. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of -years. - -Mr. HUBERT. There was nothing abnormal about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal -about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody -who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much -attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the -majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog -may be. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at -some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one -of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t listen to that stuff because it is not true. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart. - -Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the -dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely? - -Mr. SENATOR. What? - -Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with -those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely? - -Mr. SENATOR. That he would have? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that is so far-fetched I don’t believe in that stuff. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel -that way? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him -pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many -times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on -the head but I have never seen an incident like this, at no time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping -himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you -are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he -can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it -mentioned one time he said “George you know I used to be able to swim -2 or 3 miles” which I would probably say is a pretty good distance. I -know I can’t do anything like that, or nowheres near it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any ice skating? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, we were ice skating once. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he good at it? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was good because—I’ll tell you why he was good, because -he had never been on ice skates before. - -Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked -me to go, too, and did I suffer. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that was the first time we had been. I -mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in -Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with, -you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people -who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been -on ice skates, including his age. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn’t do them every day but he -did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things, -weightlifters. - -Mr. HUBERT. Weightlifting equipment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had them in the house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the -YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before -I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his general physical condition? - -Mr. SENATOR. Excellent. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he a powerful man? - -Mr. SENATOR. A powerful man? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you, I won’t want to get rapped by him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he -tangled with people? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have never had the pleasure—I can’t say pleasure. I have -never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a -couple of people. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean between him and other people. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those, would you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man -who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a -temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to -compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him, -because he can go this fast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty -well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which -happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn’t like this. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you -just tell us about those. - -Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you one. - -Mr. HUBERT. About where they happened and the time. - -Mr. SENATOR. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one. -Do you want it in the club or out of the club? - -Mr. HUBERT. Any one. - -Mr. SENATOR. This was outside of the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Last year. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time last year? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was sometime last summer. - -Mr. HUBERT. The summer of 1963? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened. - -Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the -Burgundy Room is? - -Mr. HUBERT. The Adolphus Hotel. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with -this fellow here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who, what fellow? - -Mr. SENATOR. His name? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Don Taber or Tabin. - -Mr. HUBERT. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were with that man? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some -girl and went over to talk to her. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you were alone at the table? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I -assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who came in? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby. Jack don’t like to have me drink. He doesn’t -like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I’m always drunk all the while -which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber -was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know, -and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other, -I don’t know what it was, and Jack was always telling him “Don, I want -you to stay away from me” and I have heard him warn him once before by -the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word -with him. I don’t know if you want to take this down or not? - -Mr. HUBERT. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he told him to go “F” yourself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go what? - -Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to use the word? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. He told him to go —— himself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who told who? - -Mr. SENATOR. Don to Jack. - -Mr. HUBERT. Told that to Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but -when he isn’t he is not easy to get along with you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean when Jack came in? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Taber or Tabin told him that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And there had been no previous conversation between them? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason -or other. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this -man Taber says “Go —— yourself?” - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. To Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then -I think there was an answer back or something, I just don’t remember -but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit him? - -Mr. SENATOR. He hit him. - -Mr. HUBERT. With his fist or what? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any knucks? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or pistol? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was his fist, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. So they got into a little battle. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. So they actually squared off? - -Mr. SENATOR. They squared off. It didn’t last long though. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he knocked off his feet? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he a big man, this Taber? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little -taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around -I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how tall? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I -would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches. - -Mr. HUBERT. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and -weight? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches. - -Mr. HUBERT. And weighed what? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did -he have much fat? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he is 52. I don’t care how you drill yourself, I am -certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side -which I didn’t dare comment on. If I told him that he didn’t like it. -But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful -back. I mean to look at the man’s back at his age, he had a tremendous -back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he fast with his fists? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say for his age he was. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you saw this battle with Taber? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was pretty fast. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he definitely got the best of him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the other occasion? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I -didn’t catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and -he hit a guy bigger than him. I don’t remember what it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us where that was, in the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the -stairs. But it happened to be I didn’t see it because I happened to be -around the side and all I caught is the tail end. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he knock the man off his feet? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. But I know he got the first lick in. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? He told you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain’t -going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is this the opinion that is generally held? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that is the opinion that is generally held -or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your -opinion then that he always gets the first lick in? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the -club? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don’t -remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of -some nature. - -Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew -about from having observed them yourself? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen that often? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t say often. I have seen it happen. And when it -has happened, he happened to hold down certain people. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Like throwing them down the stairs? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh -yes, I’ll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness -stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that. - -The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on -nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat -them up. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your answer? - -Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I -remember right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did? - -Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Alexander. - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any case what is the truth? - -Mr. SENATOR. What did I answer him? - -Mr. HUBERT. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth -as to that question. - -Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I answered him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, all right; tell us that first. - -Mr. SENATOR. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to -do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn’t -make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that -isn’t going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn’t afraid of height or size, -something like that I answered him. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is your opinion now, too? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you base that opinion on what? - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was -asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would -beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you think that is not so? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I say that he doesn’t go according to size. I mean I -know that he doesn’t fear anybody who is taller than he is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion -right now? - -Mr. SENATOR. How do I form that opinion? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size -don’t mean anything to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t think he is of the nature who would back off. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal -in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to -anything? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never witnessed any. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he -had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off? - -Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard -that, yes. How it happened I don’t know. There was some sort of a fight -and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don’t know but I’ve heard that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever talk to you about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you -know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it -happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut. -His cut much more off than mine. - -Mr. HUBERT. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger? - -Mr. SENATOR. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in -a fight. Now I don’t know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it -happened. I just don’t remember where or how it happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who -came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything -of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a -man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give -us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all -you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when -he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him -in the groin, in the head or something of that sort? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. I have never -witnessed anything of this nature. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you an opinion? - -Mr. SENATOR. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn’t -know what I was guessing at. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you -expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody. - -Mr. SENATOR. He certainly wasn’t afraid of size. In other words, if the -man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn’t back off. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was formed I think you told us from your general -knowledge. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. He wouldn’t back off. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion from your general knowledge? - -Mr. SENATOR. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I -don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. You know the man and that is all I’m asking. Is he the type -of man who would do that in your opinion? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. First of all I don’t think so. -Personally, I don’t think so, but after all I can’t answer for what -another individual would think in his mind. I don’t know, see. - -Mr. HUBERT. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t personally think so. I don’t think he would -be that brutal. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but there was no kicking. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a -prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped. -But I would say Jack got most of the blows in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody -pull him off? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you -didn’t actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at -the tail end of it. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words, -it is going up a flight of steps. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there -is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed -archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the =L= shape -of it I didn’t see. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were -thrown? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this last? - -Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last long because there must have been one or -two blows and that was it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in and break that up? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what happened. I just don’t remember what -happened there. I think he knocked him down. I’m not sure. I think he -knocked him down with that blow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack accomplish his purpose? - -Mr. SENATOR. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing -I think they took him down or something like that. I don’t know. I just -don’t recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know -that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was -drunk. I really don’t know if he was. I think he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is -about using his fists? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; this, which I don’t know too much about his youth, it -probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the -family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I -have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold -water flat and the only way I’m familiar of something of this nature is -what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am -going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair -evaluation. - -Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he -came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you -solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and -smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are -some people who in their daily life wouldn’t hit anybody because they -don’t think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at -this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use? - -Mr. SENATOR. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don’t even know -if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in -certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn’t answer -correctly. I couldn’t give you a truthful answer on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that that you couldn’t give an answer? - -Mr. SENATOR. Because I couldn’t, because I can’t think for what the man -thinks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know that much about him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To be able to say that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say maybe in certain -instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say -that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not -because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the -way to solve the problem at that particular point. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I would probably -say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something -before he hit somebody. I would probably say that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must -have done something wrong. I don’t know what it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But this wasn’t something where he built up a head of -steam on this guy. - -Mr. SENATOR. Maybe this is something that just went off -instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn’t -know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don’t know what it -could have been. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have indicated along here in your testimony, -particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had -a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that -was your phrase? - -Mr. SENATOR. Agree. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like -that. - -Mr. SENATOR. He could have a pretty fast temper. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must -be based upon episodes when you witnessed him losing—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Hollered at me, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about some of the episodes that you saw concerning -yourself or others which indicated to you that he had a fast temper? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there should have been discussion about -something, whatever it might be, with me he would make wrong and holler -at me and flare up at me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “make wrong”? - -Mr. SENATOR. I could never be right with the man, see what I mean? I -couldn’t be right. In other words, if I said black was black he would -say no it is white and that is it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he would do that in a gruff fashion do you think? - -Mr. SENATOR. With me? Oh my, you have no idea how many times he has -hollered at me but he’d never lay a hand on me. And the funny thing is -that is how fast he got over it, and he’d forget about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You snapped your fingers again? You mean that he would—— - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would -get over it that fast from me. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable -occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would -describe it as anger, manifested—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while. - -Mr. SENATOR. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he -wouldn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain -gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn’t, and -that you have seen many times, and you also tell us that—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with -others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don’t know. Like I -told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or -something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off. -He didn’t like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you say he would calm down right away? - -Mr. SENATOR. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them -“Again, out” and he would put them out. There wouldn’t be any -hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I’ll tell you, at all -times. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have -mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to -flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give -us examples of that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I can give you examples of myself on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have -described? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he would holler at me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then it would be all over. - -Mr. SENATOR. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he -would tone down. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long would it take? - -Mr. SENATOR. A matter of a minute or two. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he wouldn’t brood over it. Having gotten -mad at you he wouldn’t be a brooder. He would change to another subject -and be quite his normal self again? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. See I couldn’t make this man wrong. I can’t make -him wrong, you know. I’m the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you. -Whatever it might be I can’t be right. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the way he treated you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To stay in this same general area here, did you know that -Jack owned a pair of knuckles? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he bought them? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before -I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you learn that he had them? - -Mr. SENATOR. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a -cloth sack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that sack? - -Mr. SENATOR. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep anything else in the sack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see, -Jack’s bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That -is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money, -which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in -all different pockets. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a -few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You -shake your head. What does that mean? - -Mr. SENATOR. He is not a drinker. - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all, or very little? - -Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all but I would probably say if he took -a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot. - -Mr. HUBERT. How about smoking? - -Mr. SENATOR. No smoking whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude toward women? - -Mr. SENATOR. Like any other man. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say any other normal man? - -Mr. SENATOR. Any other normal man. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you -the possibility of homosexuality? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never. - -Mr. HUBERT. On his part? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have -suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so? - -Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he lisp? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. So do I. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack has a lisp? - -Mr. SENATOR. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Just as normal as any human being. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was single. - -Mr. SENATOR. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never -been married, Hyman. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any girl friends? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went out with various girls. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex -relationships. - -Mr. SENATOR. His sex relationship, you know I’m not there to watch -wherever he may be. - -Mr. HUBERT. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would -throw light upon that. - -Mr. SENATOR. He likes women. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? - -Mr. SENATOR. How do I know he likes women? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I like women. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that he liked them? - -Mr. SENATOR. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I’m -certain anybody here, who doesn’t say they don’t like women. I think -this is a normal thing to say. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally -as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any -eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there -are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is -having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I -am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things? - -Mr. SENATOR. This here I’m never around. - -Mr. HUBERT. What? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; of course you wouldn’t be around, but do you have any -opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual -nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we -can leave that off. - -Mr. SENATOR. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes -women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else -talks to them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have -been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had -even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This -is when I turn out to be the cook. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you can’t tell us then of any particular person that -you would think Jack had intimate relationships with? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of any at all that you could even suggest in -your own mind? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of -that nature I am not around where he don’t want me around. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was -having some feminine company, or indicate that he was? - -Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some -company or somebody over. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave? - -Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would -indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion. -That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts -and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing -fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a -thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that -nature? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at -his club, I mean the waitresses? - -Mr. SENATOR. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly -business. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the -make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong -statement? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that expressed many a time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about that statement? - -Mr. SENATOR. It definitely is a wrong statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never saw it. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all, -he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What -the conversations are I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in -any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion -that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate -character? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; if it was, I didn’t know about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack’s attitude about what his girls did in the -nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself? - -Mr. SENATOR. The girls working in the club? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses? - -Mr. HUBERT. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them -then I would ask you to explain the difference. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain -he would probably yank him out. He didn’t go for that bit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Something must have happened that leads you to that -opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would -certainly have done something about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention that he doesn’t want anybody -outside using any of his girls. - -Mr. HUBERT. You yourself have heard him say that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he don’t want any of his girls going out with -customers. He didn’t want the place to have a reputation such as that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the -personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of -relations with people who were in the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Beyond the area? - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn’t -want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the -club or customers. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of -supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with -people who were not patrons of the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. That I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know. -First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all, -where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it -is day or night. This I can’t even answer you. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack sensitive about his religion? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you know that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he didn’t like the M.C.’s having any jokes about the -Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a -couple of M.C.’s already. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything -to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the -open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don’t want any -Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively? - -Mr. SENATOR. As far as going to church, synagogue? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is, Jewish holidays? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; always. - -Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t one who went regularly then to synagogue? - -Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know. I would have to leave this question -because I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you lived with him. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you lived with him did he ever -indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer? - -Mr. SENATOR. They go on Friday nights. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights -regularly? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don’t say -that he has or hasn’t been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably -not on other times. I don’t say this is every Friday night that -he goes, no. I wouldn’t say that. But he does make, you know, the -important holidays. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider him to be a religious man? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how, to tell you the truth, I don’t know how -to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into -an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that -he observes as to holidays. - -Mr. HUBERT. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was -either religious or not religious. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday. -He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does -observe those things. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean not the regular Saturday fast? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don’t -eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a good time for recess. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay -organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he belonged to them or not. This I can’t -know. But I think he went—it was Temple Emanuel. I don’t know which one -he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever -participating in any activities, Jewish activities? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. B’nai B’rith? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like -that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than giving money he didn’t belong to the -synagogue’s men’s clubs? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, not to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o’clock. - -(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED - -(The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we are now continuing the deposition which we -began this morning. I am sure you understand and I want the record to -show that this deposition is being continued under the same authority -and under the same conditions as it began this morning, and also that -you are under the same oath. Now there are a few more general areas -that I would like to talk to you about concerning the character of Jack -Ruby and the type of man he was. Let me direct your attention to the -political beliefs and thinking of Jack Ruby, and ask you what comment -you have to make about that. - -Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever on his beliefs on political issues. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean by that that you don’t know? - -Mr. SENATOR. Break down when you say political issues. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean do you know anything about what his thinking was -from what he told you concerning his beliefs about politics in general? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he was not of the nature, he never went into anything -of that nature. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss international politics? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to show any interest in international affairs -as they were developing? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean would he be the type of person that would read the -newspapers at all? Did he read newspapers at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; he read newspapers religiously every day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he read all of them, I mean every part of it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I will tell you, when you ask me that, I tell you where -his reading is. On the toilet bowl. That is where all his reading is—is -on the toilet bowl. It may sound funny, but it is true. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any idea from what you know, of what his -reaction to international events was, such as, for instance, the Cuban -crisis in 1962? - -Mr. SENATOR. He never discussed these. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with what I am talking about? I think it -was in the fall of 1962 when we discovered that Cuba had some possible -atomic weapons over there, a subject of national interest. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have read that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the Berlin crisis of the year before? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I mean. Did he comment about that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that he just had no interest in that -sort of thing at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, if he did or not, he never discussed it too much. -He would read a paper. He would read his ad. He reads these—of course, -I am certain he reads all parts of the paper, but especially the -entertainment part, he was very anxious in reading. - -Mr. HUBERT. Normally when two people share space such as you do, and -are in each other’s company and have any conversation at all, the -conversation normally relates to the topics of the day, as it were, as -reflected by newspapers and other news media. - -I wonder if you can throw any light on what his attitude was or his -interest was towards topics of the day of international import. - -Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t recall. All I know is that he reads the—of -course, I am certain he reads all of the paper, you know, or various -parts, but he would talk about show business a lot with me, see. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss at all any international -incident? - -Mr. SENATOR. I just can’t think offhand. I don’t say he did or didn’t. -I just can’t think offhand if he did or didn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever seek to engage him in small talk, shall we -say, about subjects of that nature? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he talked about the President. I remember once we -were watching a picture of President Kennedy’s kid going between the -desk. He thought that was so wonderful, you know, enjoyed over that. I -remember that distinctly. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean he saw that on TV? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this he marveled over. But the discussion, we never -went into papers too much. He was mainly, I know when he grabbed the -paper the first thing he would go to is the show part of it, his -competitors, the show part of it, the night life, Tony Zoppi, with a -nightclub. He is like, I don’t know how to compare him, to somebody who -writes a column in New York. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall in all of the years you have known Jack of -his being interested in international affairs to the point that you can -remember any discussion with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. At all? - -Mr. SENATOR. I really can’t think offhand. I don’t say that he probably -hadn’t, but I just don’t think offhand. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember any such discussions? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now what would be your impression, knowing Jack as a whole, -of his interest in international affairs? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked you that, although I realize it is an -opinion question, is because you have been able to give us your opinion -on other aspects of his life and character, for instance, that he was a -man who was not a homosexual, and so forth, and you based your opinions -upon your experience with him, and this is just another aspect of his -character, that is all. - -Now I am simply asking you what is your opinion about his interest in -communism or rightism or leftism or middle-of-the-roadism or any kind -of ism. - -Mr. SENATOR. The only way I can refer to anything of that nature is the -time we saw the billboards. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean that was—— - -Mr. SENATOR. The impeachment of—— - -Mr. HUBERT. After the President was—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Right; this was the time that I saw—— - -Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that, but are you willing to say now, as -far as you can remember, that that is the only time you ever saw him -interested in a matter of that nature? - -Mr. SENATOR. You see, when he gets home at night, the first thing he -heads for is the bathroom, and the paper goes with him, and from there -on he sits there, I don’t know, 45 minutes reading the paper. - -Mr. HUBERT. I appreciate your comment because it throws some light on -it, but I would like to have an answer if you can give it to me to that -question. I don’t know if I can rephrase it. - -(The previous question was read by the reporter.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you answer that question? - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t get that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if I can rephrase it. You mentioned that you saw -him interested in a matter that concerned an ism. I had previously -asked you whether or not he had, to your knowledge, any interest in -rightism, communism, leftism, middle-of-the-roadism, and you mentioned -that one incident. - -Mr. SENATOR. Those, none whatsoever, because he is a lover of the -country he lives in. He was never—— - -Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that would be called Americanism. - -Mr. SENATOR. Americanism. He loves the nation he is in. - -Mr. HUBERT. You formed that opinion, of course, on certain events or -things that he told you. Can you refer to what those things would have -been? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I can’t, but I know that he has never belonged to any -organizations. He has never attended any meetings to my knowledge, and -this is the only way that I can in all reality base it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say that he is a lover of his country. Now, did he -say so or did he act in certain ways regarding certain instances that -caused you to form that opinion? - -You see what I mean, any impression that you have about anybody is -based upon your reactions to things said or done, and that is all I am -asking you to say. - -Now you say he is a man who loves his country. I ask you, did you -hear him say so or did you get that impression from things he did, or -attitudes? - -Mr. SENATOR. I just take this for granted that he does, the same way as -I take it that I know that I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you know you do from your own experience, but on -the other hand you don’t know about somebody else. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how to base it with him. I know he is very -fond of the city he lived in. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how do you know that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Because he has told me he likes Dallas. He likes Dallas, -he likes everything about it. He liked living there. He liked it -because there wasn’t any hustle and bustle like any large, big city -like New York or Chicago or California. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you similar facts or experiences upon which to base -your opinion that he is a lover of the United States as such? - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t base it on anything. It is only what I think. And, -of course, to my way of thinking I think everybody does. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think I am beginning to see what you mean. You assume -that everybody loves their country. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Unless there is something to the contrary. - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask some questions along that line. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead and do it now unless you prefer to wait. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I would just as soon, when you finish with an area, -pick up from notes I have been making. - -Did Jack Ruby, George, to your knowledge show any interest in any -political candidates for local office in Texas? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know on that. I will tell you, as far as I know of -him, he has never spoken of or never messed around with anything like -that, political-wise or anything of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any campaign literature for -anybody? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any literature of any political -sort that would be other than newspaper literature? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know in Texas and elsewhere there are all sorts of -organizations that are putting out literature, the John Birch Society -and Civil Liberties Union. - -Mr. SENATOR. He never messed around with that. The only first showing I -ever seen of any nature was that night he woke me up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack read newspapers, and you thought -every day. Did you have a newspaper delivered to your apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought it on the way home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read newspapers from outside of Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought the morning paper and the evening paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy the Fort Worth papers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and Fort Worth, come to think of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason why he should buy a Fort Worth paper -rather than a Dallas paper? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because he bought them both. No particular reason, but -he would buy them both for news or see what is going on in Fort Worth, -I assume. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He would buy a Fort Worth paper at a Dallas newsstand or -would he only buy the Fort Worth newspaper when he went to Fort Worth? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he would buy a Fort Worth paper, I will tell you where -he bought it, he bought it at the Adolphus Hotel. He always picked -his paper up at the stand in front of the Adolphus. He would buy the -morning news. As a matter of fact, he would buy any paper that was -laying around there that the man had in front of the stand there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read the Wall Street Journal? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t even think he could understand it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about magazines? Did he subscribe to any magazines? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Time magazine, Newsweek? - -Mr. SENATOR. I never seen any magazines come in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any magazines around the house? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; the only magazines I ever bought was Reader’s Digest. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people have a television set at your apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a radio? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack accustomed to being at home and watching the TV -or listening to the radio? - -Mr. SENATOR. On the TV part; yes, he would put that on. He would have -that on, and, of course, there is two things I know interested him on -TV. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those? - -Mr. SENATOR. Those were Westerns and the stories, you know, whatever -stories there might be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the movies? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the movies, and he liked the Westerns, you know, the -half-hour or hour programs, whatever they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a radio in his car? - -Mr. SENATOR. He had, what do you call those little things? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Transistor? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; transistor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one that was installed in the car itself? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean put in? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know. - -Mr. SENATOR. He had it put in? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A car radio. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; installed with the car? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this any sort of special kind of radio? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; just a radio that came with the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It wasn’t equipped to receive any kind of frequencies? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. FM or anything like that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, the last car he bought he bought -second-hand, which he thought he had a good buy on, and he bought it, -and, of course, the thing had a radio in it, you know, whatever make it -was. Nothing special about, just the ordinary car radio. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your radio at home? Could that pick up FM? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or shortwave? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it could or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a radio was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know the make or the brand. One side there -was a clock and the other side was a radio. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then your conclusion about Jack Ruby would -be that he didn’t have any particular political feelings one way or -another, and he wasn’t a great patriot and he wasn’t disloyal. As far -as you knew he was just an ordinary American citizen. - -Mr. SENATOR. He was a good, sound American citizen, and politics, he -never messed around with that. He never messed around politically at -all. The majority was connected with the music industry, the night -life, you know, his club, his competitors, what they were doing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the automobile and the radio—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the radio in the automobile, what was his custom -about putting it on when he was riding? Was it his custom to put it on -or not? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, not. He normally didn’t put it on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Normally he would not put it on? - -Mr. SENATOR. Normally he wouldn’t have it on. He also had one of the -little transistors, one of these transistors that he had. The reason he -had this transistor, of course he had it before I was around, the car -he had before then, the radio didn’t work, so he had the transistor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it, in the automobile? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he laid it on the seat. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he play it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he put on the music. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that was his custom when he was driving around, instead -of turning on the radio in the automobile? - -Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all times. Certain times he would put it -on and play the music. - -Mr. HUBERT. He would play the transistor? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. That was on the car he had when the radio, the car -radio was not working. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s habit so far as you know concerning his -finances, and his banking and so forth? - -Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know about it, his bank was his pockets. Now, -if he had any banking, I don’t know what he had in it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe then that he carried large sums of money? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; always. Everybody knew that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did he carry it? - -Mr. SENATOR. In ready cash. - -Mr. HUBERT. But I mean did he roll it up and put it in his pocket? - -Mr. SENATOR. Rolled it up or have a string around it, not a string, you -know, one of these rubber bands around it. He would carry some here and -he would carry some here, and some here, and some in his back pocket. I -don’t think he knew where he had it half the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that when the witness was saying “here, -here and here,” he was pointing to various pockets. - -Mr. SENATOR. This is the way. As a matter of fact, he used to say to me -“George, where is my money,” because he can’t remember where he put his -money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now you were with him frequently when he closed up the -Carousel at night and you would go home? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was the money handled then, that is the receipts of -that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. In his pocket. - -Mr. HUBERT. We have heard something about a canvas bag, a money bag. -Did you ever see that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know what he would have in the bag. You know -when it comes to money, that is his business. It doesn’t get that close -to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; we are just asking you what you observed, that is all, -about his handling of it. - -Mr. SENATOR. He has had money in the bag, and he has had it in his -pockets. Now I don’t know what the separation could be unless he has -got a certain amount of money for bills or what it is I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. When he had money in the bag where did he leave the bag? - -Mr. SENATOR. The bag? In the trunk. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the trunk of the car? - -Mr. SENATOR. While going home. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you would come out of the Carousel he -would take his bag up, and it had money in it, and bring it and throw -it in the trunk of the car? - -Mr. SENATOR. Right. He would get home, open the trunk, take the bag up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything about a gun that he had, a pistol? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a pistol, one of the small ones. In the -nature of his type business, carrying all this money, this cash with -him, this is why he always had the gun with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he keep the gun on his body? - -Mr. SENATOR. At times he had it on his body and at times he had it in -his pocket. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he own a holster for the gun? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Either a shoulder holster or a hip holster? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen it. - -Mr. HUBERT. So when he carried a gun on his person where would he keep -it? - -Mr. SENATOR. It would be in his pants pocket or sometimes it may be in -the bag. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anything, from talking to him or otherwise, -about the ownership of the Vegas Club? Who owned the Vegas, in other -words, as far as you know? - -Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know Jack Ruby owned it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in assuming that your opinion on that point is -from what he told you, or did he say anything else? - -Mr. SENATOR. I always understood that he owned it, I mean as far as I -know. Of course, there is a lot of things that I don’t know that he -never told me, you know. He doesn’t expose everything. - -Mr. HUBERT. Eva Grant was actually the operator of it, wasn’t she? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but Eva always felt like she was the owner. This is a -sister. Of course, she had it and managed it for quite a while. I don’t -know how long she managed it, has been at the Vegas Club, because it -was before me even, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base that opinion that she thought that she -really was the owner? - -Mr. SENATOR. Because I assumed that Jack was a brother and she felt it -was like hers. - -Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether or not there -are any statements or incidents that occurred which led you to the -opinion that she thought she owned the Vegas. Do you see what I mean? - -Mr. SENATOR. The only way I could express that is Jack used to say to -me that “Eva thinks she owns the club,” because she has been staying -there so long. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do they get along? - -Mr. SENATOR. They are both of the same nature, like cats and dogs. - -Mr. HUBERT. I take it from that you mean they used to fight a lot. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because as well as Jack would holler, let me assure -you she can holler too. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have been a witness to some of those instances? - -Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, the further away the better. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t quite understand. - -Mr. SENATOR. For me the further away the better. In other words, I -shied away from all that. I didn’t want to listen to that kind of stuff. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I am not happy over the fights. - -Mr. HUBERT. My question is how frequently it happened. - -Mr. SENATOR. How frequent I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it -began you would want to get away, is that the idea? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what -I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can’t -hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is -something that is flickering. - -He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him -about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees -of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never -want to work for her. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel? -Do you know anything about that, who owned that? - -Mr. SENATOR. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don’t remember who -his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he -had a partner in the Sovereign Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Joe Slayton was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is it, Joe Slayton. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn’t he? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign -entirely? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean after Slayton left. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. That is a little before me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don’t know what the -breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Connected by way of ownership? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he -owned half or what it was I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. On what facts do you base that? - -Mr. SENATOR. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What -part he owned I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. What facts make you state that you know he had something to -do with it? There must be something that occurred again. - -Mr. SENATOR. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know -Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that -club somehow. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that -Ralph Paul owned part of it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack, -there was an awful lot of things he didn’t tell me circularwise. You -can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I -know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don’t -know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or -ownership? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course, -this is after this whole deal happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. The shooting? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you? - -Mr. SENATOR. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He -was part owner of that place. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he told you that, and where? - -Mr. SENATOR. He told me at the Carousel, but I don’t remember when. I -mean I can’t specifically remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that he took over the management right -away, as soon as Jack was in jail? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he did. Now, I don’t know how much he owned or how -much Jack owned. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, there was, but how much I don’t know. In other words, -I don’t know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in -it? - -Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge. I don’t know of anybody else. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible -interest in it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Earl? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all -this happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him before that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never seen him before in my life. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Sam? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of -course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with -Eva, and they couldn’t get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats -and dogs. Eva is just a hard girl to work for. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the police as a group? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They -always used to come to see him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who -they were? - -Mr. SENATOR. I knew a lot of them by face. I didn’t know them all by -name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they come frequently? - -Mr. SENATOR. Various ones, yes, every day. I don’t say it is the same -ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or -police in uniforms. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of -entertainment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say -they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them -if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t it a rule in fact that they could get such little -items as coffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost? -He gave them that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the nature of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They -didn’t pay that, if they came socially? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have been on the door yourself? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any instructions on that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t pay entry. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay for drinks? - -Mr. SENATOR. They had a special rate. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his—in -other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used -to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say “where -can you go,” they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they -may bring them. - -So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty -and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack’s, and they paid a -special price for drinks. - -Mr. HUBERT. And they didn’t pay the admission charge? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage, -they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no -different for anybody. It was all one price, the special. - -In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups, -whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that -area, he always let them in free. - -I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course, -these weren’t people of tremendous means or of that nature, and -everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of -the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the -Vegas Club or did he own part of that building? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I think he rented it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that -operation out there—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Not owning the building. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not talking about any real estate. - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He -had tables and chairs? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And a piano maybe? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about -ownership? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise -or the things in the place, not only the building. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the right to get the profits if there were any? -Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the -profits, or did they share it in some way? - -Mr. SENATOR. This part I don’t know. All I know is the money was -handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of -my—wasn’t any of my business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I -am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that -night’s receipts and he would take them down to his car, right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Either that or put them in his pocket. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or put them in his pocket? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, whichever he saw fit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket -or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it in the apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe back in the apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas -Club—you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every -Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go -over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later. - -I don’t know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until -3 o’clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of -entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you say Jack wouldn’t go there every night? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, of course, I can’t always say, I -don’t always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all -the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during -the week I don’t say that he probably hasn’t jumped over there, because -if he has I don’t even know, because when he does go out he doesn’t -tell me his moves where he is going. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in -that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel -Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how long he lived there before me. I don’t -know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn’t -there too long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there a week or 2 weeks? - -Mr. SENATOR. It might be. I just don’t remember how long it could be. -It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don’t know. -It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork. -I am only guessing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks -that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas -Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am saying that he wouldn’t go to the Vegas Club. There -would be 3 or 4 nights out of the week that he would not go to the -Vegas Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I would probably say that, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was done with the money over at the Vegas Club -every night? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, that part I don’t know. I am not familiar -with that part. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack take any money from the Vegas Club -and bring it back to the apartment or put it in his car or in his -pockets? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not out of the Vegas. I don’t know if it has been -done, but I haven’t witnessed it. The money is handled, at the Vegas -the money is handled by Eva. Now, how she disburses it or banks it I -don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any bank accounts that Jack maintained? - -Mr. SENATOR. He had one bank. What he had in it I don’t know. I am -trying to think of the name of the bank. Do you have a listing of the -banks he has? Can you refresh my memory on it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I can give you a list of banks and read off some names. -Tell me if any of these are familiar to you. How about the Park Cities -Bank and Trust Company? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the National Bank of Commerce? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The American Bank and Trust Company? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mercantile National Bank? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; see, if you can find one on—continue. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the Industrial National Bank. - -Mr. SENATOR. Merchants. Have you got Merchants? That is the one I am -thinking of. I think he had a bank account at the Merchants. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But not the Mercantile National Bank? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there two different banks, one the Merchants and the -other the Mercantile? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the South Oak Cliff State Bank? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you only heard of one? - -Mr. SENATOR. I heard of the Merchants. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss what was done with the -receipts from the Vegas Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Eva Grant mention that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; but I will tell you what I assumed. I assumed the -money was paid, what money was taken in, I assumed that the employees -were paid off, the band was paid off, the gas and electric and the rent -would come out of that. This is what I assumed, or whatever incidentals -there might be. Now, the disposal otherwise I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then the fact is that you don’t really know how the funds -at the Vegas were handled? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or what part Jack got of it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s move to the period of the week of the -assassination of the President Can you tell us first of all where you -were when you heard of the assassination? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was in a bar having a liquid lunch. I was uptown. I was -in a bar and had a couple of beers for lunch instead of eating lunch, -and some chap walked in, who I don’t know, and he drove up with his car -and he had the radio on, and as he walked in he said, “The President -was shot.” And I hollered “You’re kidding.” He says, “No; I am not -kidding.” So we got outside, and this is all going on on this car radio -we listened to. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in downtown Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was uptown. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen the Presidential parade? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t see it at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Jack planned to see the parade? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment about the President’s visit? - -Mr. SENATOR. You see, let me jump a little ahead of that. That morning, -you see, of course, which is a working day for me, I am up much earlier -than he is, and he was sleeping when I left that morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him the night before? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the night before. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you discussed the visit of the President, his coming -the next day? - -Mr. SENATOR. We talked about that. We talked about the President was -coming in, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his comment concerning this? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what he said. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean the words, but the ideas. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, we were happy that he was coming. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack was too? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; coming into Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you why he felt happy about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No: I just don’t remember if he did relate that or not, -but we thought it was a great honor for him to come to Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he think his coming would help business in Dallas -generally, and his business in particular? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no comment on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether or not he was going to try to see the -parade? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t mention that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously said in a statement that you -saw him sometime that night, and he went out or something, and then, -you went to bed? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. The next time that I saw him was the following morning -when he woke me up. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the night now of the 21st, before -the President was shot, Thursday night, you all talked about the -President’s coming. Did he go out or stay at home, do you recall? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he is at the club. He goes to the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. He is at the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went to bed, and when he came in I assume you were -sleeping. - -Mr. SENATOR. You are talking about Thursday? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I am talking about Thursday night and Friday morning. - -Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night—the President came in Friday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but Thursday night did Jack follow his usual routine? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his usual routine. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were asleep I guess when he got back? - -Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night I don’t remember if I was or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, Friday morning when you got up he was asleep. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t talk to him until you heard of the death of -the President? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; the next time that I talked to him was Saturday -morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t speak to him at all on Friday afternoon after -the death? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I never saw him at all. I was out. I was out all day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home on Friday night at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Friday night I must have went home around somewheres -between 10 and 11. Of course, I bought the paper at the Adolphus before -I went home. I always buy a paper, too. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home then? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had not attempted to contact you from the time of the -President’s death at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. He couldn’t contact me because I was around. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to contact him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you bring out where it was that he was around? - -Mr. SENATOR. When I said “around”? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mr. SENATOR. Around town, no particular place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going from bar to bar? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, not bar to bar. I had been at a couple of bars. I was -with a friend of mine that night, and we went out, we had a couple of -beers and we were so disgusted, if you can picture the overall picture -of Friday night in the city of Dallas after the occurrence, what -happened that afternoon or late that morning, the city was, I don’t -know how to describe it, morguelike. They were brooding. Everybody was -brooding, a sad affair. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course you don’t know whether Jack went to the apartment -on Friday night before you got there? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you went home and went to bed. - -Mr. SENATOR. I read the paper in bed, and that is when I saw the why’s -about the President. They had a list, “Why, Mr. President?” - -Mr. HUBERT. A full-page ad? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; “Why, Mr. President,” so and so, “Why are you here?” - -Mr. HUBERT. The one signed by Bernard Weissman? W-e-i-s-s-m-a-n. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You saw that before you saw Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I read the paper in bed. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep, I take it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened next? - -Mr. SENATOR. The next thing I know somebody was hollering at me, and -shaking me up. This was around 3 o’clock in the morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was who? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now describe him to us at that time. What was his condition? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was excited. He was moody; and the first thing come out -of his mouth is the incident. Of course, the incident what happened -to President Kennedy, and he said, “Gee, his poor children and Mrs. -Kennedy, what a terrible thing to happen.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Had he been drinking? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t drink. - -Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t drinking on this occasion? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he don’t drink, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. And his remarks were concerning the children? - -Mr. SENATOR. The children and Mrs. Kennedy and how sorry he felt for -them. - -Mr. HUBERT. What other comments did he make? - -Mr. SENATOR. Then he brought up the situation where he saw this poster -of Justice of the Peace Earl Warren, impeach him. Earl Warren. - -Mr. HUBERT. He said he had seen that poster? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had saw that poster. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he had noticed it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I think he noticed it that day or sometime that day, I -assume. I am not sure, but I think it was that day, and I assume that -when something goes into his brain he wants to follow it up and find -out why, why that poster was up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had some experiences like that before? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean you said some experiences where he got -something in his mind and he wanted to find out why, and he followed it -up. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I can’t relate any, but I assume these -things could happen. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never had any experience of that sort? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t had any experience. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, this was a new experience for you. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he made me get dressed. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you when he made you get dressed? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was telling me about this sign here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why did he want you to get dressed? - -Mr. SENATOR. He wanted me to go down to see the sign, and meanwhile he -had called. He had a kid sleeping in the club who helps around, and he -has got a Polaroid camera. So he calls the kid up, wakes him up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call? - -Mr. SENATOR. What? - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yeah, he calls him up and says, “Larry, get up, get -dressed,” something of that nature, “and get that Polaroid with the -flashbulbs and meet me downstairs. I’ll be right downtown.” - -Mr. HUBERT. That was after he told you to get dressed? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after he told me first. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time comment upon or notice the Weissman -ad that you had been reading the night before, the big ad that you -commented upon, “Why, Mr. President,” I think it was called? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember he noticed it there or he noticed it -after the incident. Now, if he seen it before I just don’t remember, -but I know after we got through this incident, which I will relate to -you, we were looking at this ad. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was at the house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; this was—I saw it myself originally. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the newspapers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had the newspaper on your bed. You had gone to sleep -reading? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I probably threw it on the floor. I think I threw it -on the floor before I went to bed. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case you have no recollection that you discussed the -ad prior to leaving the house? - -Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if I did or not, but I do know that -we did look at that ad that night at another place. - -Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that. What happened next then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got dressed, went downstairs, got in the car. I -got dressed. We went downtown. We picked up Larry. He drove over to -where this billboard was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you where it was beforehand? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me it was on the corner of Hall and the -expressway. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which expressway? - -Mr. SENATOR. North Central Expressway. I had an indication because I -sort of knew the location of the area. I know where Hall Street is and -I know where the expressway is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Just pick up as to what happened. - -Mr. SENATOR. So we went downtown and picked up Larry. From there we -drove over to where this billboard was, and he had the kid take three -Polaroid shots of this billboard. Now, what his intentions were with -these I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t express any? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t say what he was going to do with them but he -wanted three shots. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him or did anyone else ask him why he wanted to -take pictures of this? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; all he said to me, “I can’t understand why they want -to impeach Earl Warren.” He said, “This must be the work of the John -Birch Society or the Communist Party.” And he wanted to know why. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how taking a picture would help him to find out? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t. He didn’t say how that would help him to -find out. So from there we went down to the post office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry go with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. To the post office, I mean. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at the post office? - -Mr. SENATOR. Wait now, we went down to the post area. This sort of -slips away from me when the time gets by on the ad. We must have -discussed it or seen it at the house. I just remember now, but I think -we probably did. We must have seen it. So anyhow we went up to the post -office. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the ad”—— - -Mr. SENATOR. The paper ad. - -Mr. HUBERT. The Bernard Weissman ad? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Bernard Weissman ad. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you now think, and let me get it straight, you -previously stated that you weren’t sure? - -Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby had noticed the Bernard Weissman ad after he had -wakened you at the house, and you were dressing, and before you left, -but you think now you must have? - -Mr. SENATOR. We must have because we went to the post office. - -Mr. HUBERT. When he did see the ad, was there a comment about that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why on this. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there were two things he wanted to know why -on. - -Mr. SENATOR. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why the Earl Warren poster and why the Bernard Weissman ad? - -Mr. SENATOR. Right; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So then he had you take Polaroid pictures of the poster -concerning Chief Justice Warren, and then you went to the post office. - -Mr. SENATOR. We went to the post office. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of going there, and in connection with -what? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, that was in connection—going to the post office was -in connection with the paper ad now. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was it connected to the paper ad? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was a post office box on this ad. I just don’t -recall the number of the post office box. But he wanted to see if there -was such a box. - -Mr. HUBERT. So did you go into the post office with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. We went into the post office. We saw a box with that -number on it. There was a lot of mail in there. - -Now, of course, who it belonged to—we don’t know if it belonged to him -or not, but he did press the night buzzer. There was a little hole -there where you get the night clerk, and he asked the night clerk who—I -think it was 1762 or something like that. I just don’t remember the -number. - -He asked him who it is. The night man says, “I can’t give you any -information. Any information you want there is only one man can give it -to you and that is the postmaster of Dallas.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make a reply to that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. You mean to him? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; to the clerk. Did he say anything more? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; if I am not mistaken, I think he said “How do you get -to the postmaster” or something of that nature. I am not sure now. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he annoyed with the clerk? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t annoyed with the clerk, but he was deeply -annoyed with the ad, with both ads. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you how checking the box at the post -office would assist him in whatever he had in mind? - -Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to know; he had also said that he had checked -the telephone directory and couldn’t find this Bernard Weissman, who -supposedly put an ad like this here, and couldn’t have been local -because he looked to see if there was a Bernard Weissman in the Dallas -telephone book. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him look it up. He merely told you that? - -Mr. SENATOR. He merely told me that. I didn’t see him look it up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry Crafard go with you to the post office? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay in the automobile, or come to the post office -with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe he came into the post office. I have to guess on -this. I am not sure, but I think he came into the post office. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. SENATOR. Then from there we went to the Southland Hotel coffeeshop. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is on the corner, on Commerce, and I don’t know what -the little side street is, but it is just below the Adolphus Hotel on -Commerce Street. I don’t know what the side street is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who went? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack, Larry, and myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would assume we stayed there—maybe about 15 minutes -would be a rough guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the discussion between you at -that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He reread this paper ad of the why’s of the President. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did he get the paper from? - -Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be it was lying on the counter. The news -was lying on the counter, and, of course, he ruffled through it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say he reread it; so now you are quite certain that -he had read it before? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he must have read it before. See, now, I can’t tell -you if he read it before that or I showed it to him or what. I just -don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he saw it at the coffeeshop, it was -obviously the second time. - -Mr. SENATOR. He was very disturbed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or the third time. - -Mr. SENATOR. He was very, very disturbed over both of these. - -Mr. HUBERT. Explain what actions of his lead you now to the conclusion -that you describe as a disturbed condition. - -Mr. SENATOR. His voice of speech; the way he looked at you. - -Mr. HUBERT. His voice was loud or low or different or what? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was different. It was different; the way he looked -at you. It just don’t look like the normal procedure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in that condition before? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say—I don’t know how to put these -conditions together, but I have seen him hollering, things like I told -you in the past, but this here, he had sort of a stare look in his eye. -I don’t know how to describe it. I don’t know how to put it together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t catch that. What kind of a look? - -Mr. SENATOR. A stare look; I don’t know. I can’t express it. I don’t -know how to put it in words. - -Mr. HUBERT. But it was different from anything you had ever seen on -Jack Ruby before? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was noticeably so? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could notice it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it disturb you any? - -Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say exactly I was disturbed, but I could notice -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be concerned about the President’s death or -the ad or what? - -Mr. SENATOR. To me, I would probably say it must have been a -combination of the entire thing. I know he was deeply hurt about the -President, terribly. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say you know that. How do you know that? - -Mr. SENATOR. What? By his feelings; by the way he talked about the -family and the children; by tears in his eyes, which I have seen, and I -am not the only one who has seen it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that he was more disturbed than the average -person that you know was disturbed about the President’s death? - -Mr. SENATOR. All I know, while I can’t say about the average because -all I know, he was really deeply disturbed, but I can’t describe an -average because there might be another individual of his nature, too, -who knows. Who knows the affections of each and every individual? - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case his reaction was such—— - -Mr. SENATOR. It was pretty well—you know, disturbed as I was and as -disturbed as I have seen many friends of mine, it was worse with him -than it was with the others who I have seen. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is exactly what I was getting at. So he got hold -of this newspaper ad and read it again—is that it—that is, in the -coffeeshop? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he looked it over again. - -Mr. HUBERT. What comment did he make, while reading it or after? - -Mr. SENATOR. While reading it? - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean his words, you understand, his exact words, -but the meaning, the thoughts expressed. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the thoughts. He can’t understand it. It is so -penetrated in his mind he can’t understand why somebody would want to -do something like this. - -Mr. HUBERT. The ad had nothing to do with killing the President? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; but he couldn’t understand why an ad like this should -break out, about this ad. Another thing he couldn’t understand why in -the world would they want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. Incidentally, -that sign come out of Massachusetts, that billboard. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that Ruby was putting the three -instances together as being connected in some way; to wit: the death of -the President, the impeach Earl Warren sign, and the Weissman ad? Was -he seeming to do that? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was seeming to do at that time—he was seeming to do -with the impeachment of Earl Warren, and the Weissman sign; he couldn’t -understand why these things were of a nature—I don’t know how long this -billboard has been out. I don’t know if it has been a day, two, or what -it was, and then the ad break out the same day that President Kennedy -was coming in. He wanted to know the whys. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understand you, you gathered that was -running through his mind, was why the ad, and the poster, appeared at -the same time as the visit of the President; is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it is something of that nature, I -guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to distinguish that, if possible, from another -situation, and that is whether or not you gathered that he was disposed -to place the killing of the President together with the poster and the -ad. - -Mr. SENATOR. Run that again. - -Mr. HUBERT. From what you could gather from his attitude, from what -he said and how he acted, do you think it was running through his -mind that there was a connection between the Earl Warren poster, -the Weissman ad, and the killing of the President rather than the -President’s visit? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say the subject at that time, when he was -looking at the sign and taking pictures of it, and the newspaper ad, -that this is where he really wanted to know the whys or why these -things had to be out. He is trying to combine these two together, which -I did hear him say, “This is the work of the John Birch Society or the -Communist Party or maybe a combination of both.” - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the work of those two; the death of the President? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no, no, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. The publication of these signs? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He did not indicate what his impressions were as to who was -behind the death of the President? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t indicate that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he seem to associate the ads and the poster with -the President’s death? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that part. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you do know that he was wondering why these two things, -the poster and ad, should come out at the same time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Now, mind you, I don’t know if they come out at the same -time, because the billboard, I don’t know if that thing was there a day -or a week. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he was associating the two of those together? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or trying to find out if there was any connection between -those two? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was the fact that the ad was published and the sign -was posted that he attributed to the Communists or the Birch Society. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he couldn’t understand why the Dallas Morning -News would ever print such a thing like that, say that in their paper. - -Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether he manifested -in any way that his thinking associated the assassination of the -President with the posting of the Warren poster and publication of -the ad, or rather whether he was simply associating the fact of the -publication of the ad and the posting of the poster with communism, and -so forth. - -Mr. SENATOR. To my belief I think he was trying to associate the ad and -the poster with the Communist Party or the John Birch Society. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not gather from what he said that he associated the -death of the President to the Birch Society or the Communists or any -other group? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not at the time that we were talking; rather, he was -talking about the signs. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is, the poster and the ad? - -Mr. SENATOR. The poster and the ad. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you all talked to anybody else in the coffeehouse, in -the coffeeshop? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t think there was anybody in there at that time -outside of, I think, a cashier and probably a waitress. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he made any comment to the cashier or -the waitress? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry have any comment to make that you recall? - -Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if he had any or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Ruby stated what you said he stated -concerning the poster, and so forth, did you have any comment to make -about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, nothing compared to him. Of course, after I heard -him mention it, then I sort of wondered also why an ad like that would -be put in the paper, or why anybody would want to impeach Justice Earl -Warren. What did it mean? - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack had taken the pictures and he had gone to the post -office to check on the box. Did he state what he intended to do further? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you tried to calm him down? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that his state was that he should be -spoken to by a friend and calmed down? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know. It is hard for me to say these things. -Who would really know? - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you didn’t argue with him about his view? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t argue with him at any time. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not state a concurring view, I take it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or an opposing view? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did Larry? - -Mr. SENATOR. Larry I can’t speak for because I just don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t remember whether Ruby spoke to anybody else -or anyone else spoke to him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you all do next? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you go on, did Jack indicate what he was going to -do with the photographs that he took? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. He just took them and he never said what he was going -to do with them. Of course, I know what the windup was with them later -on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I believe the local policemen got them after the -shooting when they searched him, took his money and his papers, and all -of that, and I believe those pictures were with it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. At least I assumed the pictures were with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this sign was located? When you rode -out there in the car, do you recall any conversation you had with him, -out to the sign? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was covered. - -Mr. SENATOR. You see, when I have to jump 5 months back, it is hard to -remember little things. It is not holding back. It is hard to remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you all go then? - -Mr. SENATOR. From there he dropped Larry off, and Larry went back up -and went to bed, up at the club. Then we went home. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any further discussion at all between you and -Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see; I think we put on the TV for awhile that -morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was about what time of the morning when you got back? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say somewhere between 5 and 6. Of course, I am -guessing the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was still dark, wasn’t it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but I think it was sort of a break already; you know, -sort of lighting up a little bit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go on. - -Mr. SENATOR. And if I remember right, I think it was a rerun of the -episodes of the day, if I remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed before Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean when we came back to the apartment? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. The same time. We went at the same time. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all looked at TV for a period. How long -a period? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know; maybe 10 or 15 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you all went to bed? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he did or not? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went to bed. I assumed—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You were in a different room from him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assumed he did, because when I woke up he was still -asleep; you know, later on. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say I must have woke up around, I don’t know, 10 -o’clock, something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Saturday morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning. I would say something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was still asleep? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was still asleep, but through the normal -shuffling, you know, going to the bathroom and such and such, it woke -him up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was the telephone in that apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. In the living room, but it had a long wire. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the ringing sound came from the actual machine itself? -The ring would be where the phone was located? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was the phone located that night, do you know, in the -living room? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in the living room. - -Mr. HUBERT. How far from your bedroom was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t—— - -Mr. HUBERT. As close as his? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me tell you. In the living room, of course, he had -one of these extension wires that would probably run, what, 13 feet or -something like that, 12 feet, I don’t know what the extension is, but -where it was at that moment I don’t know. I assumed that it was on the -table. I just don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would he normally take it in his room? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he could get it all the way in his room. You -see, he had the far bedroom and my bedroom was closer. I could take -it in mine, but I don’t think I could take it in his, or he might be -able to take it just partially a little bit, but I don’t think it would -extend that far. - -Mr. HUBERT. If the phone machine was in the living room where it -normally was, you would be closer to it, right, than he would? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I take it you did not hear a phone call for him that -morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had occasion where the ringing of the phone -wakened you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say “No” on that because I am always up -before he is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us whether or not if Jack had received a phone call -about 8:30 Saturday morning you would have heard it and it would have -wakened you? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he did I just don’t recollect. I wouldn’t say he did or -didn’t have one because I just don’t remember if he did have one. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember if he had one? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. That I understand. But what I am asking you is whether -or not the ringing of that phone in the position it was as you have -explained it that is closer to you than to him, would have awakened you. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure, sure. I could have heard it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to go so far as to state that since it did -not awaken you, that there was no phone call? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote because I don’t know if there was a phone -call. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is not what I asked you. I am asking you whether you -are willing to state that if there had been a phone call, it would have -awakened you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would assume so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back a bit here. Up until the time you went to -bed early Saturday morning, had Jack told you what he had done since -the President was shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know of some of them. I know that he went to the -synagogue. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you did he tell you that night? I am not asking -you what you know now, but before you went to bed Saturday morning had -Jack told you what he had done that night, rather what he had done -since the President had been shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he went to the—wait, I don’t remember if he -told me that night or it was the next day. This is the thing I don’t -remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am trying to get at is whether you have any -recollection. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember, but I do know that he had told me -that he went to a synagogue and that he brought sandwiches around to -the police station, these are things I knew that he did. But I don’t -remember if he told me that night or the next morning. I don’t remember -which time it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up the next morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack up? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he was sleeping. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Jack before you left the house Saturday -morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes. He was still home when I left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he awake? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is where I had left off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. That is why I stopped. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said as a matter of fact here that the process -of your waking up and moving around the house and so forth wakened -him. How long did you stay around the house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning you are referring to? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; after awakening. - -Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning I must have left, as a guess, mind you, -somewhere around, maybe somewheres between 11:30 and 12:30. Of course, -I am only guessing. I could be a half hour off or I might be an hour -off. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you stayed around the house anywhere -from 1 hour to 2 hours after you awakened? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And during most of that time Jack was awake and up, too? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He awoke after. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you recall the substance of the conversations between -you during that period of either 1 hour or 2 hours or something in -between? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, we watched TV a bit, and he had mentioned—of course, -he wasn’t feeling good when he woke up—he had mentioned the fact, he -sort of rehashed the President and the kids all the time, how sorry he -felt for them and how a great man like President Kennedy could have -been shot. He thought this was a terrible thing to happen. Many a time -he went through this how sorry he felt for the kids and Mrs. Kennedy, a -poor tragic thing like this to happen to them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had decided to close the clubs? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t with him. That was Friday night. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean by Saturday morning, we are -speaking of the conversations of Saturday morning. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; this I already knew. - -Mr. HUBERT. You already knew? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you find that out? - -Mr. SENATOR. Friday night. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who told you? - -Mr. SENATOR. The ad in the paper. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is how you first saw it? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is how I knew. That was an ad at the same time—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him at any time, either on Friday -night or Saturday morning, the fact that he had closed the clubs, and -the reason therefor? - -Mr. SENATOR. He told me why he closed the club. He put this in heavy -black, in heavy black block, that the Carousel will be closed Friday, -Saturday, and Sunday, because he thought it was a terrible thing for -anybody to be dancing and entertaining or drinking of that nature there -at a time such as this. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say that he put an ad In the paper Friday night that -the club would be closed for 3 days? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what time because I assume he put it in -sometime Friday afternoon. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the first time you saw the notice about the closing of -the clubs, there was an announcement that the club would be closed for -3 days? - -Mr. SENATOR. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I mean Friday, Saturday, -and Sunday. That is the way the ad ran. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you saw that on Friday night before going to sleep? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. About the ad? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Being closed? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I told him that I read it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was his comment, or query? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was hoping that everybody else would close. He was -hoping that the two other strip joints would close when they read his -ad, because he didn’t feel they should be open on account of the simple -reason of the tragedy that happened, where they should be having -entertainment, dancing, and drinking. He didn’t think it was the right -thing to do at this time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he thought it would hurt them -if they did not close also? - -Mr. SENATOR. That it would hurt their business? - -Mr. HUBERT. The other business, his competitors? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know about that, but I assumed, of course, -I am assuming only what I think, that I believe a lot of stores also -closed that day. I think Neiman Marcus closed. I believe in that -downtown area there was quite a few stores that did close. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it come to your attention that he was attempting to -keep his competitors from knowing that he proposed to close? - -Mr. SENATOR. How could he when he ran an ad? - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean for the Friday night. - -Mr. SENATOR. To keep them from knowing? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate to you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I would think he would want them to -close. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why? - -Mr. SENATOR. And I assumed that the way he put that ad in there. He -thought everybody should observe something, such as what happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that he had told Larry Crafard not to put a -little sign that was posted in front of the Carousel, not to tack it -up announcing the closing of the Carousel until after the time for the -opening of the other competitors? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because I never saw him that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t indicate to you as a matter of fact that he -would like to see them open while he was closed? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. In grief over the President? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was sort of inclined with my own thoughts in mind that -he would probably want to see them closed. This was my own thought of -mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any of his reflections on how this -tragedy of the death of the President would affect the community of -Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I can recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about either Friday night or Saturday or at -any other time. - -Mr. SENATOR. You are referring to the individuals in the city of -Dallas, right, the people of the city of Dallas? - -Mr. HUBERT. The business principally. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his making any comment to the effect that -this tragedy would hurt the convention business of Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he said it I just don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to you that you recall or heard to -the effect that the tragedy and the hurting of the convention business -would hurt his own Carousel and Vegas business? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. He did not comment upon that at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I just don’t remember. I really don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his general condition on Saturday morning during -the hour or 2 hours that you had occasion to observe him as opposed to -the condition that you have already described on Friday night? - -Mr. SENATOR. He still had that hurt feeling within him of what -happened, and apparently this had never left his mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about the poster and the pictures he had -obtained of it, or the Bernard Weissman ad? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was now referring to the tragedy of the President, and -of the family, what would happen to the family. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Saturday morning the events of earlier -that morning, that is his agitation over the poster and his agitation -over the advertisement seemed to have passed away? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it did or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t comment on it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember him commenting on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And his attitude at least was different in that regard than -what it was the night before? - -Mr. SENATOR. What he thought I still don’t know about that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have given us a description of what his reaction was to -the poster and to the ad. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now what happened—— - -Mr. HUBERT. That Friday night. All I am trying to do is get a -comparison of his attitude in those areas between the two times. Do you -see what I mean? I gather from what you tell me, let me see if I can -rephrase it, that on Saturday morning the stress, if it could be called -that, or the most important aspect of his reaction that you observed -was his feeling of sorrow as to the President’s family. - -Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning? - -Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; which was working on him pretty good. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that it was working on him pretty good, -and that is a mental impression that must have been created by the -happening of events or by statements being made. How was it working on -him pretty good? What did he say or do to convey to you that it was -working on him pretty good? - -Mr. SENATOR. He kept on repeating these things, numerous times he -repeated that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that extraordinary for him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would think it would be. To me it would be. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what else was he doing that indicated to you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, because I guess who hasn’t you -know. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what else? - -Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, and he just got that funny look in -his eyes. I don’t know how to describe it. You call it a far-away look -or a look of something. I don’t now how to tear it down. But it wasn’t -a natural look. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have that impression that morning or have you -reconstructed all this in your mind after all the events had happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. About his looks? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; you could see it. After all, I have been around him -enough to know the difference. - -Mr. HUBERT. You noticed the difference. And, of course, he shot Oswald. - -Mr. SENATOR. What? - -Mr. HUBERT. You noticed this difference, and you now have a -recollection of noticing that difference about the events of the next -day; is that right? - -Let me show you what I mean. I want you to try to remember whether you -had a distinct impression, which you now recollect, on Saturday about -his worsening condition. Do you have that recollection now, Mr. Senator? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could tell by facial expressions, facial look. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is whether or not in thinking over -this thing as you must have done, of course, that you reconstructed all -of this, and that your recollection is of the reconstruction rather -than of the fact itself. Do you understand what I mean? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know what you mean when you ask me if I am -reconstructing it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is this. When after all this whole thing came -to a climax with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby, you must have put all -of your thoughts together concerning those last days, and as a matter -of fact you have been questioned a number of times by a number of -people. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Including Government agents? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And including his lawyer. What I want to know is whether -what you are telling us now is a recollection of the reconstruction of -this whole period, or is it now a distinct recollection independent of -any reconstruction that you made in telling the story to anybody else. -Do you remember now, today, that on that Saturday morning you had the -feeling that man is getting worse on this subject? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is the way he appeared to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you remember that now, that that thought turned over in -your mind on Saturday morning. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it alarm you in any way? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how to describe myself with it, but I know it -didn’t look good. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your fear? - -Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t fearing anything. I just didn’t like the way he -looked. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say it didn’t look good, in what way do you mean? - -Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t look like the normal look as I have known him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern, if not your fear, that he might go off -his normal method of thinking or that he would do himself harm? I mean -were you concerned or was it just simply an observation which you -passed on? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am observing all this. You know I can tell. But I didn’t -know what to think. I didn’t know how to think. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that you didn’t have any -fears of anything. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t afraid of him. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; but I mean were you concerned that something might -happen to him, that he might do something? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that—— - -Mr. SENATOR. The thing is I never asked him the thoughts within him or -what he was thinking about. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that maybe somebody ought to talk to -him about it, that his grief was going to the point, or his condition -of being upset was going to the point that somebody ought to talk to -him about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know he visited his sister, and, of course, both were in -grief together, and I don’t know if he contacted his rabbi or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned a little while ago that he told you -he had been to the—— - -Mr. SENATOR. To the synagogue. - -Mr. HUBERT. To the synagogue? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he talked to the rabbi, I don’t know. Now, I know that -he went to the synagogue that Friday night to pray for the President. -Now, if he had personal contact with the rabbi I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I really don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. You left him at the house when you left? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you left at approximately 12:30? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say something around that nature. - -Mr. HUBERT. He would certainly not have gone to the rabbi then, to the -synagogue, on Saturday morning. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean I couldn’t answer that. I wouldn’t -know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Maybe you can, or at least you can give us some facts. He -was asleep when you awoke at 10:30, isn’t that right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but he was up. He Was up when I left. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you left at 12:30? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am only assuming within an hour. - -Mr. HUBERT. So it could have been 11:30? - -Mr. SENATOR. 11:30, 12, 12:30. I can’t say because actually, you know, -when this period is going on, I am not watching clocks. I don’t own -one. I can’t go by a timetable because I didn’t have the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Certainly, he didn’t leave the house from the time he got -up until you left. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I left first. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is correct. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now, what time he left I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t leave the house from the time you got up -until the time you left? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps we can fix the time when you left a little -better by going on and seeing where you went. I ask you where you went? - -Mr. SENATOR. Saturday where did I go? Saturday I think I stopped down, -I think my first stop was down at the coffee shop. I think I went down -for coffee, and my whereabouts, I don’t even know where I went that -day because I don’t work on Saturdays. I guess I probably just as well -stood around. Just where I went, I remember where I went Saturday -evening, but I don’t remember where I went Saturday afternoon. Just no -particular place or anything unusual. - -Mr. HUBERT. You do recall that your first stop in any case was the -coffeeshop? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it was Eatwell Coffee Shop that I went to. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had sort of breakfast and coffee? - -Mr. SENATOR. Coffee and. Maybe coffee and a doughnut or coffee and a -bun or something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were driving the Volkswagen? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were not on business? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say you have a distinct recollection of some event -that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. Of where I was? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; because when I came home that night, I think it -was around somewheres between 7 and 7:30, I think I come home that -night, and I come home with some groceries that I wanted to make. So I -made some groceries and—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home at that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was gone. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was not there? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t there. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7:30? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say I think it was around 7:30. So I made the -groceries and then I left some for him, and I ate and I was assuming -that maybe he would be home by the time I was making the groceries. But -he wasn’t home, so after I ate I went out again. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been drinking that afternoon? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. Possibly I may have had a beer or two. -I just don’t remember. I am not a heavy drinker. I am not a drunkard, -mind you. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I didn’t mean to infer that at all, but I was wondering -why it was that you couldn’t give us any indication of where you went, -whether it was one or several places between noon or 12:30 until 7:30 -that night. I think you can remember some of the things, some of the -places. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, let me see. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t come home until 7:30? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I was out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow any usual Saturday afternoon routine? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. There is nothing. There is no routine. Saturday, there -is no routine. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t call on any customers? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Just out, that is all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you riding around for 7½ hours? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is what I am trying to think, where did I go. I don’t -remember if I called my lawyer friend or met my lawyer friend or not -that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is your lawyer friend? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have got—Jim Martin. I don’t remember if I called him. -Once in a while I’d have a beer with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know whether you had a beer with him, I -suppose? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember the routine of the -day. There was nothing that I did in general. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did go to some grocery store to pick up the groceries? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one that was? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which grocery store it was? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think I went to Safeway. - -Mr. HUBERT. Safeway? - -Mr. SENATOR. Safeway. - -Mr. HUBERT. On what street? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is on Jefferson. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well now, does the recollection of that fact, which must -have been what you did almost immediately before going home—let me put -it this way. Was your trip to Safeway to pick up the groceries the -thing that you did immediately before you went home? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So it would be safe to say, wouldn’t it, that you went to -Safeway around a half hour to an hour before you went home? - -Mr. SENATOR. I probably had gone maybe around 6:30 or 7, something like -that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does that help to refresh your memory as to where you had -been just before you went to the grocery? - -Mr. SENATOR. Is it possible to forget? - -Mr. HUBERT. Why yes, of course, it is. - -Mr. SENATOR. Mind you this is 5 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. But it is my duty to explore the possibilities. - -Mr. SENATOR. I know that. If I could think and help you out I would be -happy to, if I knew. I just can’t place, place to place, where I have -been. I may have been out having a beer or I may have been out chewing -the fat with some friend of mine. I just don’t remember what I was -doing that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. It may be that if you think about it a bit more you can -help us a little later on. - -Mr. SENATOR. I could if I wanted to, I could have made up a fictitious -story to you and say that I sat in the bar for 3 hours or I was out -with some girl or something like that. He is writing all this down. But -I am telling you the truth. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to tell us something that is fictitious. -If it is a fact that you do not remember, then that is the fact and -that is all we want to know. I think that sometimes one’s memory is -refreshed, as it were, by events. If you can’t remember it now, we -will come back to it a little later and see if you can recollect what -happened in this period of about 6 hours on that Saturday afternoon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, unless you want to pursue this further, let me -ask him a question. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you might have visited with Jim Martin. -Is this someone that you see regularly? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jim is an attorney down in Dallas, a very good friend -of mine, who on occasions I will have a beer with. Now, possibly I may -have had it and I just don’t remember. I go to see him often, or I meet -him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Jim single? - -Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a married man? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he is a married man. He is the one who also was on -the Ruby case for a while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are his offices located? - -Mr. SENATOR. On Main Street. As a matter of fact he just moved -recently. He was on Main Street, and he is still on Main Street, but -the lower part of town in what they call the Lawyers’ Building. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you accustomed to visiting at his home? - -Mr. SENATOR. I go to his home once in a while, yes. I have eaten dinner -at his home or I have went up there and cooked for him once in a while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Mr. Martin? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say roughly around 2 or 3 years I guess, something -like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I met him through a friend of mine one day, if -I remember right. I think we were having a cocktail one day in the -Burgundy Room. I think this is how I met him. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he represented you in any legal matters? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a friend of Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. He knows Jack. I believe all the lawyers in Dallas know -Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the -President was shot, on Saturday? - -Mr. SENATOR. What? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the -President was shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. Was I down there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I drove by. I mean I didn’t stop. I drove by there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any errands or chores or anything that you -customarily do on Saturday? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, nothing in particular, no. I will tell you Saturday I -just don’t like to work. I just don’t like to do anything particular, -you know. Of course, I would say that, of course, Saturday is a wash -day. It is not that I wash every Saturday, you know, or launderette -day. I do my own. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you do Jack’s also? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Jack doesn’t even do his own. He sends them out, but I -do my own. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you do your laundry? - -Mr. SENATOR. Downstairs in the apartment. There is a couple of washers, -two or three washers, and a couple dryers right in the apartment. It is -like these machines similar to the store like. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack use those? Did Jack use those? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some particular place he sent his laundry? - -Mr. SENATOR. He takes it out and has somebody do it for him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that was? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was there one time with him when he was picking up -his laundry. If I am not mistaken, I think it was on the McKinney or -Fitzhugh, Fitzhugh or McKinney. I think it was somewhere up in that -neighborhood. But Jack, he takes his laundry and sends it to this -place. He takes it over. But instead of him doing it, he has a girl do -it for him, and they straighten it out for him when it dries up and all -that there. Then he will come back and pick it up. If he don’t pick it -up one day he will pick it up the next. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He takes it over to this laundry? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl does it for him at the laundry? - -Mr. SENATOR. She does it with the soap and powder and all that. They -have girls over there, a couple colored girls. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This would ordinarily be a self-service laundromat? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are people there so that if you don’t want to -serve yourself they will do it for you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the nature of this place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. His brother Sam, wasn’t he in the laundry business? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sam fixes those machines. I think Sam was employed by -somebody. I don’t know who he was employed by, but he fixes these -washers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But he doesn’t have washaterias? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge; no. I think he is an employee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you are describing, is that in the general -Oak Cliff area that you people lived in? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. This is in town. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Downtown? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not downtown but you have to go through downtown to go -uptown. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What section would you call this section? - -Mr. SENATOR. That area would be I would say sort of north—northwest -part of town I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. While you are on the laundry subject, wasn’t there some -equipment in the basement of the building you were in? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I said I did mine but he don’t do his. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you came home, as I understand it, it was about -7:30, and you fixed a meal for yourself. Before I pass for the moment -from this period on Saturday afternoon, let me ask you this. You were -interviewed I think by the FBI and by Elmer Moore of the Secret Service -very shortly after these events, by the FBI, I believe, on Sunday the -24th? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No; first the police had me, the local had me. - -Mr. HUBERT. The local police? - -Mr. SENATOR. Then from the local they put me into the FBI. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they question you at that time as to your activities -during this period of 6 hours on Saturday afternoon between roughly 12 -and 6 or 12:30 and 6:30? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; they questioned me, I believe they questioned me from -Friday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them at that time that you had no recollection -of what you had done during this 6-hour period? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what I told them. I don’t know if I was -asked that, if I can remember right. I believe the questions they asked -me, if I remember right, is when was the next time I saw Jack that -day, if I remember right, that when I left, what time did I leave that -Saturday, and I believe when was the next time I saw him, if I am not -mistaken, if that is the way it ran. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give the police a written statement? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You signed a written statement for the police? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they made me sign a written statement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time it was that the police -questioned you on Sunday? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why I don’t remember. When they grabbed -me, they took me and shoved me into some little room all by myself, and -I don’t wear a watch because I am allergic to watchbands. I can’t wear -a watch. And I don’t know how long I was in this little room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the evening or the afternoon on Sunday? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was the afternoon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you talked with Jack Ruby up to that time, between -the time of the shooting and the time that you were questioned by the -police? - -Mr. SENATOR. The last time that I saw Jack Ruby is when he left Sunday -morning. That is the last time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn’t see him again on Sunday? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I saw him when they waltzed me by. When the police got -through with me they waltzed me by to the FBI, that is when I saw him -through a glass. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But never talked to him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; couldn’t get near him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with his sister or with—— - -Mr. SENATOR. That day? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or with anybody else who had seen Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you were questioned? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you why. When I got out, when I got through -with this whole thing that night, it was already dark outside, and I -for one had never seen the shooting on TV, and I still have never seen -it to this day, the shooting on TV, and I never saw the runs because -they had me there that late. I don’t remember what time I got out that -night, but I assume it was dark. It may have been around 7 o’clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So between the time you left Jack Ruby back at the -apartment on Sunday, and the time that the police first started to -question you later on Sunday afternoon, you didn’t see Jack Ruby in -that interval? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At least to talk to? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Eva Grant? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Tom Howard? - -Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard? - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take a little recess at this point. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. HUBERT. We will convene again after recess, with the same -conditions and same understanding about the oath and so on. - -Now I think you said you came back home at 7:30 on Saturday night and -you had bought some groceries and Ruby was not there. - -Mr. SENATOR. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You fixed yourself something to eat, and I believe you said -that you left. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I was thinking that he might show up -while I was—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You fixed enough I think you said for two people. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he come home before you left? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave? - -Mr. SENATOR. I left about maybe around 8, 8:30. As I say, I got to—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any phone calls prior to your leaving? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go? - -Mr. SENATOR. From there I went downtown. I think I went to the Burgundy -Room, if I am not mistaken, that night. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is in the Adolphus Hotel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I met a friend of mine there, and we were feeling -low. I was feeling low. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the friend? - -Mr. SENATOR. Bill Downey. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation? - -Mr. SENATOR. He is a traveling salesman who sells musical equipment and -all the other stuff that goes with it. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see now, and Mike Barclay. He is an attorney. - -Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together? - -Mr. SENATOR. Went out. - -Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together you say? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We went out to a bar and we had a beer or two, and -everybody was low down and got disgusted, and they all wanted to go -home including myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you all did so? - -Mr. SENATOR. So we all went home, and I think I got home about 10:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack there then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jack was there. He had eaten, and he said he was -going out. Now, where he went I don’t know, but he said he was going -out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe his condition then? - -Mr. SENATOR. His condition was in the same thing it was in the past. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it like it was in the morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was in that same kind of condition. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was no worse? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, it is hard to say how much worse it was. He didn’t -look good. - -Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked that question is because—— - -Mr. SENATOR. You know when you say “worse,” I don’t know how to -put words together, you know, in expressions, the expression of an -individual’s face. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me show you what I mean. Perhaps you can help me when I -tell you what I have in mind. You have told us earlier that you thought -that his condition on Saturday morning was worse than it was on Friday -night and early Saturday morning. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think the expression you used, “the thing was getting -at him,” so that you formed the impression that the condition was -worsening, isn’t that correct? Is that a fair statement? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it looked; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if you will give us a comparison. - -Mr. SENATOR. I know what you are talking about, but I don’t know how to -compare these things, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it worsening? Was it getting to him more? Did it seem -to be getting to him more Saturday night as opposed to 12 hours earlier -roughly Saturday morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was of the same nature or -something like that. It wasn’t good, because for me to try to express, -and I don’t know how to express a facial nature. It is just hard for -me to put in words. If you take the complete facial expression and the -eyes and all that, I am not a connoisseur at just being able to express -these things, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I am just asking you for another comparison because -you had given us a previous one, and I thought that another comparison -between another period, two others periods, would be useful if you -could give it to us, and that is all. I gather from you that your -general impression was that there had not been much change in his -condition over what it was on Saturday morning. - -Mr. SENATOR. I will say something in the same nature. - -Mr. HUBERT. That it was of the same nature? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what the nature of the conversation was -between you two that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I walked in, he was just about on his way -out. I asked him if he ate. I told him I bought groceries. He said, -“Well, I ate already.” He ate. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after you arrived did he leave? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, God, within 5 minutes. It was just that short, that -fast, and out he went. Now, I don’t know where his visitation was. I -don’t know if he went to see his sister. - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you where he was going? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then or ever? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t tell me at all where he was going. - -Mr. HUBERT. He never did tell you later? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; and I didn’t ask him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you don’t know where? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I went home, you know, when I got home I -went to bed. I was going to bed. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you went to bed about 10:30? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say about half an hour later, maybe around 11. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time he came in? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because I wasn’t awake. - -Mr. HUBERT. The next time you saw him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Was Sunday morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you awaken on Sunday morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning I assume it was somewhere around between 8 -or 9, somewheres in that time. Just something in that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any way to fix it at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; you see, when I was on the witness stand with Mr. -Bill Alexander, now he tried to make me pinpoint it right down to the -minute. It is highly impossible. If you are not watching a clock and -don’t have one, how can you pinpoint these things? How can you really -do it? How is it possible? How can you pinpoint time when you are not -watching it? - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case what you are saying, your best estimate is that -it was—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I have to estimate it. Now, as I say when I estimate it, I -can be 15 minutes, a half hour or maybe an hour off on time. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us earlier that when you went to bed as -early as 11 o’clock you usually woke up quite early. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is why I say I probably woke up maybe around 8 -or 9 that morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Of course, I read in bed, you know. I read in bed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there when you woke up, or not? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was sleeping. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did he waken? - -Mr. SENATOR. Ruby must have woke up I assume it probably would have -been maybe—of course, I have to guess again—I would assume somewheres -around between 9 and 9:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t we put it in terms of how much after you did Ruby -wake up. In other words, no matter what time you awoke, can you tell us -how long after he awakened? - -Mr. SENATOR. It could be maybe three-quarters of an hour or an hour. I -am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your first distinct recollection of him that -morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, the moment he got up he went to the bathroom, which -is normal for him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did. Of course, we turned on the TV. He had the TV -going. He turned it on to see what the latest news was. Then he went to -the bathroom. Of course, then he washed, and he went in and made his -own breakfast. I only had coffee. He made himself a couple of scrambled -eggs and coffee for himself, and he still had this look which didn’t -look good. - -Mr. HUBERT. Again I want to ask you, can you give us a comparison -between the look that he had that morning, which you just described, as -opposed to what it was on other occasions in the sense of whether it -was growing worse or not? - -Mr. SENATOR. He looked a little worse this day here. But if you ask me -how to break it down, how he looks worse, how can I express it? The -look in his eyes? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, is that one of the things? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the way it seems. - -Mr. HUBERT. The way he talked or what he said? - -Mr. SENATOR. The way he talked. He was even mumbling, which I didn’t -understand. And right after breakfast he got dressed. Then after he got -dressed he was pacing the floor from the living room to the bedroom, -from the bedroom to the living room, and his lips were going. What -he was jabbering I don’t know. But he was really pacing. What he was -thinking about—— - -Mr. HUBERT. That was after he was dressed? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, what he was thinking about, I don’t know what he -was thinking about. But he did, which I forgot to tell you, he did get -that call from this Little Lynn from Western Union. - -Mr. HUBERT. You remember the call? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you answer the phone? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he had already been up. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Little Lynn? - -Mr. SENATOR. I could hear him say. I heard him say Lynn, Western Union. -I heard him mention Western Union. I heard about the money and that he -was sending it to Fort Worth. She needed $25 for rent. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I heard him mention $25 over the phone. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did he mention it, that he would send $25? - -Mr. SENATOR. He would send $25 to her by Western Union. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that it was for rent? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me after it was for rent. - -Mr. HUBERT. He told you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t hear Little Lynn ask for it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t hear it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course not. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore he must have told you. - -Mr. SENATOR. He said she called, and, of course, I knew it was Lynn -because I knew—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You knew who she was? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. But after he hung up, he told you that she needed $25 for -rent? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that she had called the night before? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that at the time? - -Mr. SENATOR. If she did I don’t know. This I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that call was? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. It could have been anywheres between 9:30, I -am not sure, maybe 10. I am not sure what time it was. See now—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get at it this way. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now you are placing me from the time I woke up to the time -Jack woke up, but I say with all these things I still have to guess the -times. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is why I am going to put it to you this way. The time -of the call is known, and that is why I would like you to relate events -backwards from that time, you see. - -Mr. SENATOR. I know that I was off on the time because—— - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not trying to get you off. I am trying to get the -facts, so let’s approach it this way. How long before the Little Lynn -call would you estimate it was that Jack woke up? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t estimate the time, but I don’t think he was up -too long. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say he had gone to the bathroom and that he had cooked -his breakfast and that he had gotten dressed? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t dressed at the time Little Lynn called. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was not dressed at the time? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he was still in his shorts. I think he was still in -his shorts. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you could help us on this it would be valuable for us -to know about how long prior to the Little Lynn call did Jack actually -get up. If you want to break that into segments as to how long it was -before he started breakfast, and so forth, well, do that too. It may be -helpful to you and it would be to us. I can help you if you want along -these lines. Did the Little Lynn call come after he had finished his -breakfast? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I think that call came in before he had breakfast. I -think it did. I think it was before breakfast. I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone as I understand it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When he got up he went to the bathroom? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did the call come while he was in the bathroom? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. After he left the bathroom he went to fix breakfast as I -understand it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if the call came in before or after he went -to the bathroom. It was one of the two. I don’t know which. As I say, I -would have to twist it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to twist it or to guess. - -Mr. SENATOR. I have to guess. I have got to guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have got to give your best estimation. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I don’t know I can’t answer it because I -have got to guess on this. You put me to guesswork. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; we don’t want to have you guess. We want your best -estimation of the passage of time. If you don’t know, we certainly -don’t want you to guess. But you were there and we weren’t. Therefore, -we would like to know if you know. We don’t want you to guess. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know the times. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me give you another approach to assist you on this. You -said that you might have awakened anywhere from 8 to 9 yourself, is -that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that it was as long as 1 hour after you awoke -that the call came from Little Lynn? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. You know this is very complicated -when you try to make a timepiece out of this. It really is. I mean -especially if you are not watching the time and don’t know the time. It -is just a complicated thing trying to place a time together. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but on the other hand when we have a fixed -time, sometimes we can relate events to that time in terms of hours and -half hours and so forth. That is what I am asking you to do now. - -Mr. SENATOR. You see when you are relating all three there, in the -relation of all three here from the time I got up to the time Jack got -up to the time he had his breakfast, from the time that Little Lynn -called I would be jamming all these things into maybe a half hour to an -hour in differences, and they would all almost clog together because -I would have to guess at all these, because, mind you, this wasn’t a -great expanse of hours. This is why I say I will be guessing and have -to be wrong. Mind you from the time that I wake up at 8 o’clock in the -morning, supposedly around 8 or maybe it was 8:30 or 9, I have to have -the answers, supposed to have the answers for what time I woke up, what -time Jack got up, Little Lynn in the short span of hours, and it is -hard to break these things down and be accurate. - -Mr. HUBERT. We understand that, and the purpose is to find out if it is -possible to know, and if your answer to us is that you can’t tell us, -we don’t want you to guess. - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t tell you. The reason it is hard to tell you, -because I would have to guess at all these and I have no hours. It was -such a short span of hours, I would probably assume this whole thing -would consummate maybe in what, approximately 2 hours, whatever it may -be, maybe 2½ hours, I don’t know. Now, you know you have got to jam -hours in for these three things to fit, and I can’t jam them together -to make them fit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can’t fix sequence of events instead of -trying to fix hours. You got up first. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Jack got up next. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then another fixed event is the time that he went to the -toilet. That came next, didn’t it? He went to the bathroom? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then he fixed himself some breakfast. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now you have asked me if he fixed breakfast first or the -telephone call, I mean her call. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember which came first. Now I am guessing that -the call came first. I am not sure. I can’t relate to be sure right now. - -Mr. HUBERT. As to the sequence of those two events, we now know what -your recollection is, and that is that it could have been before or it -could have been after. - -Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any event, he certainly dressed after he got the -call, is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. And after breakfast. - -Mr. HUBERT. And after breakfast? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then after he dressed he paced about some? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, at least we have the sequence of events so far as we -are able to put them together. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. We also know, you see, Mr. Senator, that as to one -sequence, you don’t know. I am not critical of you because you don’t -know, but we weren’t aware that you didn’t know until right now. - -Mr. SENATOR. As I say, I mean when you take these four incidents and -try to, you know, try to jam them all into this short span of hours, I -just can’t break it down and be right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s get to this. Was Jack normally a fast dresser or -would you care to estimate whether it took him—— - -Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack was never a fast dresser or never a fast washer. -He took his time. In other words, if I wanted to compare us, I could -dress five times as fast as he could or shave or anything else that -much quicker than he could. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that normally it took him a half hour to get -dressed and shaved? - -Mr. SENATOR. A half hour to get dressed and shaved? I would probably -assume it would take something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And do you think it took him that long on this morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it took him that long. - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he did dress and you would think that that -took him a half an hour? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would only have to guess. I can’t say. - -Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would have? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t assume the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would take him a half hour? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would so surmise that it would. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did this pacing go on after he got dressed? It -may have been a matter of only a couple of minutes, but if it was more -than that, I think you would know it. I think if it was a half hour you -would know it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say that he paced back and forth 5 or 10 minutes. -I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Was it at that point that he left? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything upon leaving? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he say? - -Mr. SENATOR. He said, “George, I am taking the dog down to the club.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Anything else? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was it, and out he went. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was fully dressed? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was fully dressed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe how he was dressed? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he wore a hat, wore a suit and a shirt and tie. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he was coming back? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that is the only words he said when he walked out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him speak to Elnora Pitts on Sunday morning -over the telephone? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who Elnora Pitts is? - -Mr. SENATOR. It is a colored maid. No; I have heard that incident -before, but I don’t remember this at all. I just don’t remember if he -did or not. I can’t, in other words, I can’t refresh my mind whatsoever -that Elnora called. Now, I could be wrong on this, but my mind is not -fresh for that long. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that you were in a part of the -house or outside the house maybe? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t out. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never left the house? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was in my shorts all the while, unless I—no, I don’t -even know. Maybe I could have been in the bathroom. I am not even sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you have no recollection of Elnora calling? - -Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it her custom to call when she was coming out there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he—I don’t know, but I know that he has driven by -to tell her to come up and clean the apartment sometimes or something -of that nature. Now, I know he did that one time, but I don’t know if -it is his custom to have her call or not. Maybe it had been, maybe it -hadn’t been. I don’t know on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I know I am asking you for another estimate, but I would -like to know what your view of it is. That is how long after Karen -Bennett called did Jack leave the house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Who? Oh, Little Lynn? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, Jack was still in his shorts then when she called. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes? - -Mr. SENATOR. This I do remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had to dress? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you are not sure whether he had fixed breakfast or not? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which came first, if she called or he fixed -breakfast first. - -Mr. HUBERT. Leaving those aside, all I was asking was whether or not -you could give us an estimate of the time from when Little Lynn called -until he told you “I am leaving and I am going out and take this dog to -the club.” Have you any idea at all? If you don’t, tell us. - -Mr. SENATOR. Wait, wait, what time she called? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; the time interval between when she called and when he -left. - -Mr. SENATOR. I will make a wild guess. I would say it was at least -three quarters, it must have been about three quarters of an hour. - -Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am just guessing. I can’t base it on anything. I am only -guessing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it quite guessing? You knew he had to dress. - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure you have got to dress. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that took up some time. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; had to wash. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you also say that he paced up and down for some little -interval of time. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So when you characterize it as a wild guess—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I have got to guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if it is a guess so much as it is a putting -together of these little segments of time and estimating what each -would take. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am saying I would have to guess. I would have to guess -all this. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you said three quarters of an hour, wasn’t it really -the result of your thinking of how much time would be occupied to do -these little segments of activity such as dressing and pacing up and -down and so forth, and you added them up and came to about three -quarters of an hour; wasn’t that your mental processes rather than a -wild guess? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no. You asked me a question and I said I would -have to guess it. You know it is really amazing to put hours together. -Mind you, 5 months have elapsed already, and to try to put these hours -together you have got to fluctuate. How can you be sure? - -Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but—— - -Mr. SENATOR. You have got to fluctuate. It is strictly all guess work. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but your attention was directed specifically -to these time lapses, not 5 months ago, but on that very day. - -Mr. SENATOR. They were all guess work, they were all supposedly. I had -to give guess works. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying now is that the times that you -estimated then were guess works even on that very day as to the times -on that very day? You were examined, weren’t you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. About 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the evening? - -Mr. SENATOR. And I have always said I would have to guess the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Even as to that day you would have to guess the time? - -Mr. SENATOR. That Sunday? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I always have to guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday you said you had to guess the time as to the -earlier part of the day? - -Mr. SENATOR. I had to guess the time Saturday, I had to guess the time -Sunday when he woke me up. I was only guessing it was around 3 o’clock -in the morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. You see the reason why I am bringing that to your attention -is that you stated a moment ago that it is difficult for you to recall -these things after 5 months. But I was inviting your attention to the -fact that your memory had been directed to these intervals of time for -the first time not today, but on that very day, and your answer to me -is that even on that day you were guessing as to the intervals of the -earlier part of the day; is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Of times? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Of times. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement? - -Mr. SENATOR. If a man doesn’t see a clock, or doesn’t see a watch, what -else can he do? What else can you go by? - -Mr. HUBERT. All I am saying is that even on the 24th when the police -and the FBI asked you about these segments of time on that same day, -your statement to us is that even then you were largely guessing? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess the approximate times. If you can -tell me if you don’t see a clock or a watch, how do you tell? - -Mr. HUBERT. You might be able to tell by remembering what TV program -was going on at the time. Do you, at any particular time? - -Mr. SENATOR. At that time I believe it was something about the late -President, but I don’t just recall what it was, but I believe it was—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Practically everything that day was. You don’t remember any -specific part? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no. I don’t remember any specific part. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack look at it, too? I think you said he did. Did he -make a particular comment as to a particular part then being shown? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was the last time you saw Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight. Were you awake, did you wake up -on Sunday morning before Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning? Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have an actual recollection of that, or are you -stating this because it was almost always your practice that you did -wake up before Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. I always—I would say 95 percent of the time I was up -before him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But on this day do you have any recollection? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know. He was asleep because when I got up he was -still in bed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up, as I understand; you made some breakfast -for yourself? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I had coffee. I made coffee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Coffee? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In this period between the time you got up and the time -that Jack left the apartment, did you remain in the apartment the -entire period? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was still in my shorts when he left the apartment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you visited by anybody? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That day? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know which are the neighbors in that apartment? Let -me start over again? You lived at that South Ewing address on that very -same floor right next to Jack for 11 months, approximately? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before this Sunday we are talking about. Now, did you know -any of the other people who lived in the apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Just to say hello, but that is about as far as it went. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Sidney Evans? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sidney Evans? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a man named Malcolm Slaughter? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They work for the Red Ball Freight Company or Motor -Express, truck drivers apparently. - -Mr. SENATOR. Did they live there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They were supposed to; yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the people who lived across the hall from you? - -Mr. SENATOR. When you say across the hall, it was a =U=. That was just -by the U shape. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony sort of a situation? - -Mr. SENATOR. A balcony, but it was a =U=. In other words, when I walked -out of my door, if I kept walking and went over the bannister I would -hit the ground. There was nobody facing me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on either side? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack was on one side. Then there were some girls on the -other side. The next apartment over there were three girls, something -like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That =U= that you are talking about, is it sort of a -stairwell, is that it? The =U= is on one floor of the stairwell? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were three suites on the landing that you people -were on? There was the old suite that you occupied, Jack’s suite which -you were living in on the 24th, and the suite occupied by some girls? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; then it went down further. That wasn’t the end of -the strip. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a hallway, wasn’t there? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there was a balcony. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony? - -Mr. SENATOR. A railing—I mean you are outdoors. There is nothing -concealed. It was just a railing and you are looking outdoors. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you opened out onto this balcony? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Along this balcony, how many other suites were there along -that balcony? - -Mr. SENATOR. Running our way, you have got to transplant in your -mind—in other words, say that I am facing my door right now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. And the balcony goes =U=-shaped like this. Do you follow -me? In other words, this is all space out here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything in front of you is space? - -Mr. SENATOR. Space. Now right past mine, if you turn to the right of -mine, then you walk down another balcony. See, there are balconies on -this side plus balconies this way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now along this same level that you were on, and -following the whole set of balconies around on the same level, how many -different—— - -Mr. SENATOR. The entire level. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How many different? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is another guesswork. I would say, I would sort of -estimate around a dozen places, a dozen apartments. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now these dozen different apartments, was there a single -stairway that led up to that level, or was there more than one stairway? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there was two stairways. There was one from the front, -there was one level that come up South Ewing. In other words, you drive -around through the back where you park your cars and come up this way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Another stairway? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on this level how many of those dozen suites there -perhaps—how many of those people did you know? - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know any. I never had a conversation with any of -them. Now I said hello to the girls next door, but I never talked to -them, never had a conversation with them. Of course, they were young -girls, not of my category. And the people on the sides, I didn’t know -any of them. In other words, anybody who walked in, you know, you would -say hello whether you knew them or not. But there wasn’t a conversation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I want to carry this on a little bit from what -happened after Jack left the apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. I promised him that we would stop at 5 because he expressed -the fact that he was somewhat fatigued. He has been up since 2:30. I -think rather than get into another segment we might adjourn for the -day. You were turning to another subject? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I was going to take him up to the time when he left the -apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. That I think would be another subject. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the interval between when Jack left and—— - -Mr. HUBERT. We have it now to the point where Jack has left the -apartment, and I think that is a good stopping point. It is a quarter -past 5 and I had promised we would stop at 5. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am not mad at you. - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED - -The testimony of George Senator was taken at 8:35 a.m., on April 22, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. -Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s -Commission. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, you will understand that this is a -continuation of the deposition which was begun yesterday, and that -Mr. Griffin and I, who are examining you, are doing so under the same -authority and under the same conditions as were indicated to you at -the beginning of the deposition yesterday. Likewise, I take it that -you understand, unless I hear to the contrary that you are still under -the same oath which you took at the commencement of the testimony on -yesterday; is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the end of the session on yesterday we reached the -point where on Sunday, November 24, you had left your apartment or you -were leaving your apartment, as I recall it. Your testimony was that -Mr. Ruby had already left. I think you fixed, but just for the purpose -of continuity at the moment, would you now try to fix the approximate -time at which he left? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I left? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; when he left. - -Mr. SENATOR. To me, I thought it was somewheres between 10:15 and -10:30. Of course, I found out hereafter in the courtroom that I was -wrong, but this at that time was the approximate figure that I had that -he left. - -Mr. HUBERT. You told us yesterday that whatever time it was, your -thought was that it was approximately three-quarters of an hour after -he received the call from Little Lynn? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. At the time he left—in my courtroom statement there I -fixed the time at approximately 10:15 or 10:30. That is where I thought -he had left around that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now to fix it not in point of clock time but in -point of how many hours or minutes it was, or parts of hours it was, -after the long distance call from Little Lynn in which you understood -that she asked for $25. - -Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say it would probably be approximately -somewhere, I imagine somewhere between three-quarters to an hour. Now -this is about as close as I can think of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you base that upon two considerations, at least -that you stated to us yesterday. That he was not yet dressed. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. When Little Lynn called? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that he got dressed and cleaned up, washed up? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then spent some short, relatively short period of time -pacing around, as you said? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before leaving. And that you estimated yesterday I think it -was about three-quarters of an hour. - -Mr. SENATOR. Three-quarters of an hour. I mean this is just an -estimation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he left he told you he was taking the dog Sheba -down to the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he made no other comment? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what time he was coming back? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no mention of anything at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did you do next? How long did you stay in the -apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. After he left I’m still sitting around in my shorts yet. -I’m not dressed or not washed or anything outside of having a cup of -coffee. I had coffee. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have TV on? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you, after he left I was reading the Sunday -paper. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you cut off the TV? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t have the TV going. I was just reading. I -read the paper, and from there I washed, shaved, got dressed, and took -a ride downtown, and as I say, this place, the Eatwell—— - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after Ruby left did you leave? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was about three-quarters of an hour, I -guess, something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you went directly to the Eatwell? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You used your Volkswagen, I think you said? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park, do you remember? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I parked right by the Eatwell. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is a parking lot there? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it is right on the street. You know Sunday there is no -difficulty. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then take it from there. Tell us what happened. - -Mr. SENATOR. So I went in there. I sat down there. Now, this is the -place that I go every morning, you know, rather Sunday or Monday -because I don’t like to sit indoors. So I went there and had a cup of -coffee. Then the first thing—then I had another cup of coffee. Now, on -my second cup of coffee I heard the girl, the waitress—now where she -got her information from I don’t know. It had to be either telephone or -radio, I don’t know which. Maybe they had the radio on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any kind of a radio of any type in the -restaurant? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they usually have any? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. The first time she said she heard -that somebody shot Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was she speaking to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no, it was loud; but it happened to be she was near me. - -Mr. HUBERT. There were other people in the place? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not a lot. There were others you know, the usual morning -Sunday business in the restaurant is sort of minute. So what I did when -I heard that, I called up the lawyer. I was going to give him the news. -I figured he would probably be sitting home, you know, Jim Martin, who -happens to be a friend of mine. But when I called him. I spoke to his -daughter and she told me her dad and mother were in church. Dad would -be home in half an hour. I said all right, maybe I’ll call him back. - -A short while later, the same girl, the same waitress hollered out that -the man—she wasn’t pronouncing the name right, the Carousel Club, but -I sort of got the drift of the name and she hollered Jack Ruby killed -Oswald. This is what she come up with later. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much later? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say about 5 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But it was after you had called Martin? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after I called Martin. - -Mr. HUBERT. You called Martin right away? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was going to tell him that. I didn’t think he would -be—of course, I didn’t know he was going to church or anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. He is a close friend of yours? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He is an attorney there; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then? - -Mr. SENATOR. Then when I heard that again, then I went up to see him. -Of course, I froze in that chair there. I said my God, I didn’t know -what in the world to think. Then I went up there and I no sooner got -there, he had just got there, I don’t know, I think a moment or two -before me. His wife and daughter had just come out of church. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went to his home, you mean? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went to his house. I told Jim and he said, “I heard -already. I saw it on TV.” - -Mr. HUBERT. He was already at his house, you said? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was home already. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after your phone call to him do you suppose you -got to his house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he lived quite a ways. I would probably say it was -about a 20-minute ride. - -Mr. HUBERT. You left the Eatwell just as soon as the girl announced -that the man who had shot Oswald was Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. I finished my coffee. I had about a half a cup left, -something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not attempt to call Martin again? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t call him. I just went direct. I figured if he -wasn’t home I’d wait for him. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your reason for wanting to see Martin? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, after all, this was my roommate. No particular -reason. I happened to know he was a lawyer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to him as a lawyer or as a friend? - -Mr. SENATOR. As a friend, as a friend. So I went up there and said, -“Jim, what in the world are we going to do?” - -Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you said a moment ago, “After all, he -was my roommate”, that you felt some concern for yourself. - -Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I felt. I knew after this had happened, -I thought it was best that I volunteered than somebody come after me. - -Mr. HUBERT. You thought that somebody would be coming after you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, eventually they would have to. Eventually somebody -would have to be coming after me. After all, I was his roommate. - -Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were going to see Martin really to seek his -advice as a lawyer as well as a friend? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; what to do. What should I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that true of the phone call as well? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that motivation true of the phone call to Martin as -well? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. The first call, I was just going to tell him that I -heard that Oswald was shot, which the girl told me. But on the second -time—I didn’t—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You realized your position at that time as being his -roommate and that gave you concern because you thought that the police -might be picking you up? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you thought you had better have the advice of a lawyer? - -Mr. SENATOR. To ask him what to do. Should I go down there or what? - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in fact? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, we went down there. We went down there and, of -course, we had a tough time getting in. When we got down the place was -just jammed. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at Martin’s house, speaking to him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say maybe 5 minutes, maybe 10 minutes something -like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And did you in effect ask him what you should do? - -Mr. SENATOR. I asked him what I should do and I thought it would be -best to go down. He thought so, too. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that it would be best to go down, or -his. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a combination of both. - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, within about 5 minutes the decision had -been made? - -Mr. SENATOR. 5 or 10, something like that. I’m not sure of the exact -time. - -Mr. HUBERT. The decision had been made to go down to the police -department. Now, what was the purpose of going down there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I went down there, I thought it would be best if I go down -there than to be picked up, because after all, I’m his roommate and I -know they are going to eventually pick me up, because I was living with -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the idea was that you were going to go down -there and say, “Now look, I’m George Senator. I was a roommate of Jack -Ruby’s and do you have anything to ask of me?” That was it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was in the nature of that; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, a moment ago you said that you were sleeping -with Jack Ruby, and in some circles sleeping with someone is—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I said I was what? - -Mr. HUBERT. You were sleeping with Jack Ruby. - -Mr. SENATOR. I was sleeping with him? - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that. - -Mr. SENATOR. I never said that, never. - -Mr. HUBERT. I misunderstood you then. - -Mr. SENATOR. You sure did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not mean—— - -Mr. SENATOR. You sure did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did I hear that right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I did not catch it. - -Mr. SENATOR. You sure did. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, if I did hear that I was wrong about that? - -Mr. SENATOR. You definitely were wrong. You definitely were wrong. I -don’t even remember this incident being said. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. I just wanted to get it clear, because -some people might misunderstand the phrase, and I would not want that -to be misunderstood if it were not true. - -Mr. SENATOR. It definitely isn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when you got there, what happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. The place was mobbed, and, of course, I believe there were -a couple of police attendants by the elevator as we got off. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go, in fact? - -Mr. SENATOR. Actually, I didn’t know where to go. We went upstairs. - -Mr. HUBERT. What entrance, do you remember? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I guess the front entrance, we went up. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went to the Chief of Police office, or what office? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what office I was at. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whom you reported to or whom you were with? - -Mr. SENATOR. First we were mobbed. I told these people, these two -policemen, whoever they were I don’t know, I told them who I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were they stationed? - -Mr. SENATOR. They were right by the elevator as you got off. - -Mr. HUBERT. As you got off on one of the upper floors? - -Mr. SENATOR. One of the floors. I don’t remember what floor it was on. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not mobbed, as you put it, or you -did not speak to anybody as you came into the building? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the ground floor? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. But as you got off, whatever floor it was, two policemen -stopped you; is that the idea? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was with Jim Martin. - -Mr. HUBERT. And when they stopped you, they asked your name I suppose? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you told them? - -Mr. SENATOR. Told them who I was. And then, you know, the place was -mobbed and there was a bunch, whoever these people were, reporters or -whatever, there were some of them there. They happened to overhear it, -and they mobbed me. They mobbed me. - -Then eventually two great big policemen came over and one grabbed me on -one side of the arm, you know, they looked like giants to me, and one -on the other side and they took me into this room. Remember I told you -they put me into a little sort of solitary room. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is on the same floor? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And I don’t remember how long. I mean I had no way -of knowing time that I was in there in this room there waiting for -somebody who was going to—they said to wait there, I don’t know. They -kept me in this room. Then somebody finally approached me. They wanted -a statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. You got there, I suppose, about 20 or 30 minutes after -leaving Martin’s house? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say something like that, between 20 and 30 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were, almost immediately after getting off on one -of the upper floors of the building, mobbed by the press group and -taken by these two policemen? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And put into a room on the same floor? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then was Mr. Martin with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was with me, but he never, you know, when they took me -to this room they wouldn’t let him in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask to go in or to remain with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. He says “I’m his lawyer”; he was my lawyer. But we still -were separated. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask that he be allowed to remain with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to get in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you remember whether he actually asked to get in with -you? - -Mr. SENATOR. It seemed like he wanted to get in. I mean I don’t -remember the exact words that he said, because they wouldn’t let him -in, so apparently he was trying to get in too. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you were placed under arrest? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, never placed under arrest. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you were escorted to this room and sat down, was the -door locked? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to remain there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there any guards on the door? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. I don’t think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you handcuffed? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say you don’t know how long you remained there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t tell. This was a little tiny room. It looked -like where they keep some inventory books—not books, probably paper -goods or something like that. It was a very small room. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear what was going on outside the room? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, couldn’t hear a thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did the room have any windows in it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the light on? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It was very small. It was a very small room. As I -say, it must be a room like they keep paper goods, things of that -nature, or something like that in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did the police search you or frisk you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. They did not take anything away from you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t under arrest at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was the next thing that happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, finally, I don’t remember this man’s name, you -may have a note of it, I assume he was a detective. He was in plain -clothes. He questioned me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he question you in that same room, or take you outside? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, he questioned me in that room. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just one man? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he connected with the Federal Government or the State -government? - -Mr. SENATOR. I assumed he was local. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you found out since who he was? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t. I think he must have been a detective of -some nature. I mean I don’t know what his classification was, because -all I know is, he was in plain clothes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his inquiry? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was, you know, what happened from the time of the -shooting up until the present time. That was the inquiry. - -Mr. HUBERT. The time of the President’s shooting? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, from the President to—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he more or less ask you to go over and to account for -your time during that period? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean where I was? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Am I right then in saying that his inquiry was to ask you -what you had been doing since the President had been shot and what Ruby -had been doing too, I suppose? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Both of you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He asked you concerning the events in your life during the -afternoon of Friday, November 22? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is how it started. - -Mr. HUBERT. And on the night of the 22d and the early morning of the -23d? - -Mr. SENATOR. There is only one thing that slipped my mind to tell him, -and that was the paper issue, the newspaper issue and the billboard, -“Impeach Earl Warren”. That was the only thing I forgot to tell him -that slipped my mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that you had gotten up, that Jack had -wakened you early in the morning and had asked you to go out with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he questioned me on that or not. I don’t -remember if he did or not on that. I don’t remember if he did on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But if he did—— - -Mr. SENATOR. But I had been in a pretty shaky mood that day, most -naturally nervous. - -Mr. HUBERT. But your point is that if he did ask you about whether you -had gone out with Ruby in the early hours of the morning, you did not -tell him about the concern of Ruby over the Bernard Weissman ad, nor -did you tell him about taking the pictures of the Earl Warren poster? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t tell him that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was your reason for not? - -Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. - -As a matter of fact, I’m sorry that I—I should have told him. If I -thought about it I should have told him that because I think this was a -benefactor for Jack Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say that the reason why you did not mention these -two episodes was forgetfulness? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -I was a pretty shaken boy. I’m not used to something like this. This is -something that will shake you up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it that you were shaken up and thought it best not to -mention anything about it, or that you actually forgot? - -Mr. SENATOR. Just forgot. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that that officer then carried you through the -events of Saturday morning after you got up and Saturday afternoon and -Saturday night and Sunday morning, is that not so? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And at that time did you tell him what you had done on -Saturday afternoon? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, because I didn’t—I don’t think I did because I don’t -know if I was questioned on that. As a matter of fact, to the best of -my knowledge I don’t think I was questioned at any time what I did on -Saturday afternoon, to the best of my knowledge that I can think of. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean they questioned you about what you did on Friday -night and Saturday morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Sunday morning, but they omitted Saturday afternoon? - -Mr. SENATOR. The best that I can recollect, it was more important of -the events of when I had seen Jack, and the times that he got home and -when I got home. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him concerning all of those matters -approximately as you have told us to date? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean from the events of Saturday? - -Mr. HUBERT. Friday, Saturday and Sunday up to the point we have reached -in this deposition. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but you are more thorough than they are. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long do you suppose that interview with the police -officer lasted? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have no idea. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened next? - -Mr. SENATOR. From there he took me to the FBI on the same floor in -another room, and his story was about the same. - -Of course, if I remember right, I think he goes back like you started, -you know, my name—— - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the FBI examination of you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember his name. Yes, the FBI man. And if I -recall right, I think he asked me, you know, my name, how old I was, -you know, like you started off. - -Mr. HUBERT. He went into details as it were? - -Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me? - -Mr. HUBERT. He went into more detail? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; because the details—in other words, he started -from where I came from, my name and how old I was and things of that -nature, like you did. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that his examination was thorough as -it were. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was more to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what way? Did he ask you for more details? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went into my personal life, you know, like you -started off. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that his examination of you was along the -same lines as mine has been? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because—well, in certain parts I would say, but I -think yours are more meticulous—is that the proper word—than his. In -other words, yours are more thorough. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he asked you to account for your time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you told him about going out in the morning with Jack, -having been awakened by Jack and going out, and so forth? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I forgot that. In other words, when they shoved me -from one to the other, it was the same way. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you do not have any recollection of having told -the FBI that Jack had awakened you in the morning and that you had gone -out with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. I may have. I don’t -remember if I did or not, now, on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollections as to whether or not -you mentioned the Earl Warren poster or the concern of Ruby about the -Bernard Weissman advertisement? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. Maybe I did, maybe I -didn’t. I don’t remember that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about accounting for your time on Saturday -afternoon? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember that, either. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did this interrogation by the FBI man take? - -Mr. SENATOR. Of course, it’s guesswork again. I would say maybe it took -a couple hours. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it one man or more? - -Mr. SENATOR. One. I would say now—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell either the State officer who interrogated you -or the FBI man who interrogated you that you had a lawyer and that his -name was Martin? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not ask that your lawyer be present? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then after the interview with the FBI man was -over? What happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. Then they let me go. They released me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did that, in fact, the FBI man or a State officer? - -Mr. SENATOR. The FBI man. If I remember right, I think the FBI man -said, “That is all there is.” That is all there was of the interview. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were permitted to leave? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you left? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was between 6 and 7 at night because I know -when I got outside again it was dark. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody waiting for you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nobody waiting for me. Somebody gave me a -message, or handed me a message, I don’t remember who it was, that Jim -Martin would meet me, the fellow who brought me down, the attorney who -brought me down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a police officer? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; you mean who handed me the message? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a written message? I asked that because you said you -did not remember who handed you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate it was written, you see? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was. All he said, he would meet me -there. In other words, he was going to meet me across the street from -the—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a verbal message? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a written message. I don’t remember who -gave it to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. You just put it in your pocket or something? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I read it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You read it and threw it away? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew I would meet him. So I met him. As a matter -of fact, I was with three attorneys when we met, either two or three -attorneys. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, do you want to ask any questions on this -segment that I have covered this morning up to this point? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to go back a little bit. When Jack Ruby left -the house Sunday morning, you were dressed, were you not? - -Mr. SENATOR. I? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not dressed? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was in my underwear. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the Eatwell Restaurant, can you tell -us which of the waitresses, management people, were on duty? - -Mr. SENATOR. Which of the waitresses? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And management people were on duty. - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say there were probably two or—no; not glancing -around or anything of that nature, I would probably say there were 2 or -3 waitresses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You eat there regularly? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I stop there every day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you know these waitresses? - -Mir. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am asking you is to tell us which of the -waitresses were on duty. - -Mr. SENATOR. I could recollect the one who said it when I heard her say -it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her name. I know her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you not know the names of any of the people who work in -there? - -Mr. SENATOR. This girl here, I mean I know them all, but I don’t know -them by name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of them by name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know any of them by name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the names of the owners? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know the owner. I know his first name. I don’t know his -last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that? - -Mr. SENATOR. His first name is Jim. There is a father and son. Jim is -the father and Charles is the son. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say they are? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say Charles must be—of course, they -weren’t there that day. Charles I would probably say is in—could be -in I guess his late thirties, I’m not sure, and the father I would -probably say is maybe in his late sixties or early seventies. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the waitress that was on duty? - -Mr. SENATOR. She was a woman about, I would probably say in her late -forties or maybe early fifties, dark haired if I remember rightly, and -I believe brown eyes. I don’t know how to describe her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a waitress there by the name of Helen? - -Mr. SENATOR. Helen? A little short girl. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what she looks like. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know one. The other is a little short girl I think -by the name of Helen. I think it is Helen. See, now once in a while -they wear badges but I can’t remember one from the other, outside of -their faces. I always say hello to them. On the other hand, I never -take that much notice of who’s who. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, the waitress who was on duty knew that you were -Jack Ruby’s roommate, did she not? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think she did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The people at the Eatwell knew—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Some know me but I don’t think this one knew me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They know Jack as well as they know you, don’t they? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if they know him. See, Jack and I never -went in there, I mean together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack eats there regularly? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or ate there regularly, did he not? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack don’t eat there because he don’t like their type -cooking. No; Jack don’t eat there. Now I go there every day. I go -there every day, I go there every morning. I have coffee, I would say, -probably 7 days a week. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any recognition by anyone at the Eatwell while -you were in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. There was very few people in there that morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But of the people who were there, did any of them appear -to recognize that you were connected with Jack Ruby when they learned -over the television set that Jack Ruby had—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say to the best of my knowledge, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that would indicate that nobody said anything to you -about it. You did not have anything to—— - -Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t say a word to me about it. Now, if they -did or not, as I say, to the best of my knowledge, no. Now I can’t -quote myself, if I am that correct or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am curious as to any other people that you thought of -contacting after you heard that Jack had shot—— - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that was it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I called up Jim because I happened to know Jim and Jim was -an attorney. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought about calling Jim before you knew who it was -that had shot Lee Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time that you tried to call Martin -that it was somebody associated with the Carousel Club that had done it? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean Jack Ruby, my roommate? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, you say it was after you called Martin that you -learned that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald, but you said as I -understand it somewhere between the time you learned Oswald was shot -and you learned Ruby had done it, you heard something about it being -someone from the Carousel Club. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So that at the time you called Mr. Martin, you had no idea -who shot—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I called him because it was local news. That is why I -called Jim. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of calling anybody else? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of trying to get ahold of Jack Ruby to tell -him about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because Jack left home shortly before that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea where he was? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you walked into the police station, I understand -you to say that you were mobbed by members of the press? Did you say -anything to those members of the press? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, they ganged me so and everybody was throwing -questions at me, and I don’t even remember the things that I answered -because they asked me so many things and so many people were mobbing me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were answering their questions? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was answering some of them, whatever they were asking me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was that you answered questions? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Maybe about 5 minutes I guess before two -policemen nabbed me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the questions they asked? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; God, they was throwing them left and right. I couldn’t -keep up with them. I just couldn’t keep up with them, what they were -talking about. I was just in circles, you know. Now how can I answer -these questions there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see reports in the newspaper the next day or that -evening about what you had said down at the police station? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see no papers that evening. As a -matter of fact, I never even saw the run, I—still to this day—I’ve -never seen the TV of the shooting. I have never seen that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to Martin’s house, did you have any fear -for yourself? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any fear or thought that the police or -someone might try to implicate you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you describe yourself as being shaken up when you -were at the police station—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Something like this, I would say the normal person it -would make him nervous. Here I have gone through a half a century -already and I have never had any incidents in my life, and I would say -the normal person would be shaken up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have any more. Wait a second. Let me ask this. -When you came downtown with Mr. Martin, did you come down in his car or -your car? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I came down in my truck. No, I think I came down -in his car. I’m not sure but I think I came down in his car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked, whose car it was where you -parked downtown? - -Mr. SENATOR. Either parked on Commerce or Main Street, one of the two. -I’m not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Near Harwood or near Pearl, or were you right in front of -the police station? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; we were down further, just to grab a parking -space. I just don’t remember how far down it was, but I would assume, -I think we walked, I don’t know, maybe two or three blocks to my -knowledge, something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come by the Western Union station? - -Mr. SENATOR. Going up with Mr. Martin? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Either way, either going downtown or walking back to the -police station. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think we come up Commerce. I’m not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then be more direct about this. Do you have any -recollection that day of seeing Jack Ruby’s car downtown? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that I have never seen, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have anything more, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before I pass on to another aspect, I think there is one -point that needs a bit of clarification. Mr. Griffin asked you whether -or not you considered calling Ruby when you heard that Oswald had -been shot, to convey the news to him as you conveyed it to your other -friend, Mr. Martin. You said that you had not because you didn’t know -where he was; is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I knew he left the house, you know, before I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have also testified that he had told you that he was -going to take the dog to the club. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you knew he was at the club or at least you had -some indication? - -Mr. SENATOR. He could have been there. Now he told me he was going to -the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the club was just about a block away? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. So when you didn’t get Mr. Martin, you didn’t try Ruby at -the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You knew the number of the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make as to why you didn’t call Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. I didn’t think of it, because when -he left the house he said he was going to take the dog to the club and -most naturally I heard the conversation he was going to the Western -Union, so who knew where his whereabouts would be. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you didn’t know his whereabouts after you -called Martin? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right, there was no particular reason. It just -happened to be that I thought of Jim Martin. - -Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is to give you an opportunity to state -for the record why it was that you did not next think of calling your -friend and roommate whose approximate location you knew? - -Mr. SENATOR. It just didn’t enter my mind, that is all. I just didn’t -think about it. There was no particular reason why. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Senator. Was it your practice to -spend time socially with Jack Ruby other than when you saw him at the -apartment? Did you and he do things together? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I’m out most of the time. When I get up -in the morning, I mean he is still sleeping when I got up, and I don’t -see him in the daytime. Maybe on rare occasions something will happen, -but the overall picture, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are out most of the time. Is this in -connection with your business? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a set of calls that you make every day? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I make calls. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular customers that you call on? - -Mr. SENATOR. Customers, or at times probably get new ones. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturdays or Sundays you do not work? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With whom do you spend your time on Saturdays and Sundays -normally? - -Mr. SENATOR. Nothing in general. Once in a while I would meet Jim -downtown because Jim Martin comes downtown on a Saturday, like a lot of -lawyers do. They come down about 10, 10:30, 11 o’clock and they check -their mail or any messages come in, such as that. Incidentally Jim -Martin’s office is right across the street; of course, he just moved -recently. It was at the Davis Building which is across the street from -the Adolphus Hotel on Main. He has been there for quite a number of -years to my knowledge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you list as your friends in Dallas outside of -Jim Martin and Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, the people I stayed with who were friends of mine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us their names? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jean and Lindy Lauve, a fellow by the name of Bill -Downey, Tom Howard, the attorney. I don’t say I associated with him but -he is a friend of mine. Another lawyer by the name of Mike Barclay: he -is a friend of mine. Not that these are complete associations that you -are with them every day or so, or things of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But are there other people whom you see more often and you -are closer to than Barclay and Howard? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. Of course, every now and then an -out-of-town friend of mine would come in, a traveling man; if he -happened to be in Dallas I would see him, or he may call me. In other -words, I’ll put it this way—I had a particular hangout. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was the Burgundy Room. I used to go there quite often. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the Adolphus Hotel? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel. When I used -to go in, you know, the latter part of the afternoon, around 5, used -to always run across friends that you know and we would always have a -talk session or something of that nature there. Of course, I had many -friends that came in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that you saw Barclay and Howard and -Martin more often than you saw the other people? - -Mr. SENATOR. Martin more so than the others. But the others, I’d see -them every now and then. Like the trial I’d seen them down at the -courthouse and things of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what about the Lauves? - -Mr. SENATOR. The Lauves, those are people who I stayed with, who kept -me up when I didn’t have a place to stay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see them more often than you saw Howard and -Barclay? - -Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there every day. I was living there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean prior to the shooting. - -Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that on rare occasions, on rare occasions. One -time I used to see them quite often. Of course, that is when I was -traveling. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But at the time that Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald, of all -the people you have mentioned, Jim Martin was the person you felt the -closest to? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was a close friend of mine. I used to see him almost -every day, especially more so during the trial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I am trying to get at is was there anybody else -to whom you felt equally as close? - -Mr. SENATOR. I had—let me put it this way—I had a lot of good friends. -I don’t know how you want to classify what you call close. Many friends -I had, good friends. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Apparently of all the people you knew in Dallas, the one -that you felt most inclined to call when you heard that Oswald had been -shot was Jim Martin. - -Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be I thought of Jim Martin, yes, and I -called him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you had reached him at that time, I suppose you -would have gone out to his house or you would have carried this on -further. You have had some conversation with him about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I imagine so. I would imagine so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is you didn’t really have to convey -the news to Jim Martin or anybody else. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it just happened to be it was local news, you know. It -is like probably a thousand other people did, called their friends “Did -you hear this, did you hear that.” It could be anywheres in the country. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When the President was shot did you call anybody? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because I didn’t know. I was told. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you were told did you call anybody? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; because the reason I didn’t call anybody, it was a -weekday. Now this is only guesswork. It was a weekday, and, of course, -I assumed that everybody knew it as fast as I knew it or probably -faster than I knew it, with the many thousands of people who were in -that locale, they knew it before I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s continue from the point that you left the -jail. Did you meet anyone? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was with Jim, I met Jim Martin and another attorney who -I had only met for the first time and I don’t remember his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were waiting for you or you met them outside? - -Mr. SENATOR. They told me they would meet me somewheres. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. We met at a bar across the street from the courthouse. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the bar? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it was the TV Bar. - -Mr. HUBERT. The message you had was that they would meet you there, is -that right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you did go there and talked to Martin and the other -lawyer? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the other attorney. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, I would say we sat in that bar and had -two or three beers, if I remember right. I think I said to Jim “I don’t -have a place to sleep or a place to go” because I was afraid to go home. - -Mr. HUBERT. You told that to Jim Martin? - -Mr. SENATOR. I told that to Jim, and I believe—wait a minute now—I -believe, I am not sure but I think I went to his house and he said he -would put me up on the couch if I was afraid to go anywheres, which I -was. From there on in I was afraid to go home. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why? - -Mr. SENATOR. Why was I afraid to go home? Well, I was just scared, that -is all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of what? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of what, but I was scared. - -Mr. HUBERT. Obviously you were scared that somebody might try to hurt -you? - -Mr. SENATOR. Very possibly, yes; on something like this. Now who or -what I don’t know but that was the instinct I had. As a matter of fact -I was scared for about 10 days after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were scared for 10 days after being—— - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, for about 10 days I was afraid to sleep -in the same place twice. Who I was to fear I don’t know, but just the -normal thing, I was afraid. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say you slept at different places every night? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; until I finally moved in with Jean. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the places you slept in? - -Mr. SENATOR. I slept at Jim’s a few times. I checked into an -inexpensive hotel one time. I slept at another fellow’s apartment one -time and then I finally went to Jean’s and stayed there, Jean Lauve. -She said she would put me up because she and everybody else knew I was -scared. You asked me what I feared. I don’t know who I feared or what I -feared but I just—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You honestly feared that somebody—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I was just in fear that is all which is a natural instinct -in a situation such as this. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying it is not natural. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But I am trying to see if you had any idea in your own mind -what you were afraid of. Now obviously you were afraid of being hurt. - -Mr. SENATOR. Certainly I was afraid. - -Mr. HUBERT. Possibly being killed? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now of who or what I don’t know. It could be a -crackpot. I don’t know what it could be. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you give some consideration to the thought that whoever -had been involved with the killing of the President might want to kill -you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t know who to fear. It was just a -natural instinct. I would imagine anybody in the same situation would -probably fear something. It was just a natural thing for a human being -to do. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am not criticizing you, Mr. Senator; at all. I am just -trying to find out the reason. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I had no reason or any particular thing. There was no -reason for it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned one, that a crank might try to hurt you. - -Mr. SENATOR. A crank might. Yes; I can’t measure what or who. It was -just a fear. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it your thought that there might be some group of -people who might want to hurt you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t say it was a group or what it is or who it may be. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you don’t know of any group? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But didn’t it cross your mind that there might be a group -who would want to get rid of you for some reason or other? - -Mr. SENATOR. This didn’t enter my mind that it was any group or -anything of this nature here. All I knew is I had a fear. I don’t know -who, but something. I was just afraid, that is all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you arm yourself in anyway? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I never armed myself in my life. The only gun I ever -had is when they had me overseas. That is the only time I ever had a -gun. I never carried a knife or a gun in my life. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do during these several days when you were in -effect afraid? Did you move out in the open or did you stay—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I was afraid of the nighttime, not the daytime. In other -words, I wanted—I didn’t want to be in an isolated place anywhere. It -is not that I wasn’t out at night or daytime, which I was, but I didn’t -want to be in an isolated place. In other words, I wouldn’t want to be -walking down a lonely street or something like that because that would -scare the life out of me. But around groups or something like that, I -didn’t fear it that much. Now what I feared I don’t know, but it was -just a natural thing I feel any individual would fear. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that fear to Jim Martin? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not only to him but to many of my friends. I said, “I’m -just afraid.” - -Mr. HUBERT. It was for that reason that several of them put you up? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. I told them I was afraid. They said “What -are you afraid of?” You know people say, “What are you afraid of?” I -said, “I’m just scared, that is all”—and who wouldn’t be? - -Mr. HUBERT. So your friends also were asking you as I have been as to -what would you be afraid of. That is a fact isn’t it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they asked me, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I -don’t know, I’m just afraid, that is all.” I can’t say who I am afraid -of. I don’t know who I am afraid of. - -Mr. HUBERT. I know that you wouldn’t know necessarily individuals, but -you must have done something—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Or groups, individuals or groups as you mentioned. I can’t -place my finger on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. But what I am suggesting to you is that your fear came from -the thought that any individual or group that had anything to do with -either the slaying of the President or the slaying of Oswald may have -you in mind next? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; my thoughts didn’t run that way. My thoughts were -nothing but fear, and I didn’t have my mind on any groups or anything -like that. I just didn’t know. It might be an individual crackpot -walking the streets, who knows, he doesn’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think that is a very understandable reason that you -gave us as to the crackpot. - -Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I don’t know what it could be. - -Mr. HUBERT. It went beyond that though, didn’t it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just your fear of a crackpot? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is all it was? - -Mr. SENATOR. When you say “beyond that,” what do you mean “beyond that”? - -Mr. HUBERT. That your fear went beyond the mere fear that a crackpot -would hurt you, your fear and your thought about the matter went to the -point that some people other than a crackpot might—— - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t think that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then are you willing to say that it was only your fear of a -crackpot? - -Mr. SENATOR. I use “crackpot” as one but I don’t know how to describe -it. Who knows what it could be. It could be an individual walking the -street, I don’t know. When I was scared I had no particular thing in -mind. It was just I was scared, that is all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you during this period when you were -frightened that Jack Ruby might have been set up by someone to kill -Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. Run that back again. Let me understand it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you at anytime after the shooting and -when your fears began to develop that Jack Ruby might have been part -of a plot to kill Oswald, and that there were others involved in the -matter? - -Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. That never occurred to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was not any part of the basis of your fear? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you then, you considered right from the -start that this was an individual act on the part of Ruby, unconnected -with anyone else? - -Mr. SENATOR. Run your words again. I’ve got to follow you. - -Mr. HUBERT. I say as I understand it then your thoughts from the very -beginning were that Ruby’s action was his own and that no one else was -connected with it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Did you say his actions was his own when this thing -happened? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and that you never considered that anyone else was in -it at all but Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I never thought of anything such as -that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand your answer. Pardon me. You wouldn’t -think of anything such as what? - -Mr. SENATOR. To me he wasn’t connected with anybody whatsoever of any -nature. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think that now and you have always thought that, is -that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wasn’t connected with anyone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, your fears could not have been based upon the -thought that anyone that he was connected with would want to hurt you, -obviously, since you never thought that he had any connections? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t have any. Let me put it this way. Even today -I still have a certain fear. Now you ask me what I fear today, I don’t -know. This is something you just don’t erase out of your mind, that is -all. This is not a little thing; this is a big thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. After that Sunday night, when you talked to the lawyers for -awhile, you went home I understand to Jim Martin’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I’m not sure but I think Jim put me -up because I was afraid to go home and I didn’t have a place to go to. -If I remember right I think he did. I think I went to his apartment, -his home rather. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am moving to the next few days, Mr. Griffin. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever given any consideration to the thought or to -the possibility that someone else might have been associated with Jack -Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the killing of Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you whether you ever believed such a thing -but whether you ever explored that possibility in your own mind? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; never could think of anything such as that. Jack was -a true American. He loved his country. This is for sure. He loved the -land that he lived in as I have told you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated before that there were a lot of things Jack -didn’t talk to you about. - -Mr. SENATOR. That Jack would talk to me about? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That he did not, Jack didn’t talk to you about everything -he did? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack lived in the show business type. This is his life. He -lived in the glamour of the show business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that Jack talked to you about everything that -he was doing? - -Mr. SENATOR. Who can answer that? How could I answer that? How could I -really answer that and know? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, sometimes you associate with a person and you know -he is the kind of person who doesn’t go out and talk about everything -he is doing, in fact that he is the kind of person who is reticent to -talk about some of the things he is doing. - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say Jack was the type that would not hold back to -my knowledge, that would hide anything. I don’t think he would hide -anything from me. I can’t say positive but I don’t think he would. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he didn’t discuss his relationships in the Vegas -Club or in the Carousel Club with you. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To any extent, did he? - -Mr. SENATOR. Look, his money parts he isn’t going to detail to me how -much he is taking in and things of that nature or who he owes or what -he don’t owe. I mean I wasn’t confided in that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the problems he was having -at the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. He had problems, you know, he had problems with his sister -because they were of the same nature. They were cat and dog fighters. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he having any problems with the Federal Government? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I assume he was. What they were I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then it is—— - -Mr. SENATOR. What I mean to say, the Federal Government, you mean tax -problems? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But I take it these were not things that he discussed with -you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; you could be friendly, friendly and all that there, -but you don’t know. I mean they don’t tell you everything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am suggesting again or asking you again is if -Jack was not the kind of person who about certain matters which he -considered personal or important to himself wouldn’t talk about it. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think he would discuss everything; as a -matter of fact I don’t think there is any individual who will tell you -everything. I don’t care who they are. I am certain, I know there are -people, every little thing, I mean there are certain things they keep -to themselves. I would probably say like you, you, or anybody else. -They are not going to tell you everything about their whereabouts, -their notes, what they owe or what they don’t owe or things of that -nature. Everybody has a little secret or two. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To put it another way, you wouldn’t describe Jack Ruby as -the kind of person who as a matter of his constitutional and emotional -makeup had to tell you everything he was doing? There are some people -like that. - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean would he tell me everything he was doing? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there are some people who are the kind of people who -just somehow have to unload almost everything they are doing to other -people. Now Jack Ruby wasn’t that kind of person, was he? - -Mr. SENATOR. Of what he thought you mean or his thinking? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his problems and so forth. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no. I don’t think he would unload -everything. I am certain there are things that he may have owed or -certain discussions he may have had that I am certain he wouldn’t -discuss with me. I am certain he didn’t want me to know everything -there was to know, you know, like anybody else would. There are certain -things that an individual keeps to themselves, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to pass to the next day, which is to say Monday, -the 25th, unless you can advise me now that there was nothing of -significance that occurred on the night of the 24th after you had met -with Mr. Martin and Mr. Barclay. - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean Sunday night? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Barclay wasn’t with me Sunday night. - -Mr. HUBERT. There was another attorney. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t say Barclay. I don’t remember his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Tom Howard that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I did or not. I don’t remember if I saw -him or not that night. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed early? - -Mr. SENATOR. You see I can’t quote if I did or didn’t. I just don’t -remember if I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to bed at Jim Martin’s -house? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been 11, 12, I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I remember it, you said you met them at about 6 or 7. It -was dark in any case? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour and you left? - -Mr. SENATOR. What? - -Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour in the beer place? - -Mr. SENATOR. It may have been a half hour, it may have been an hour, I -don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you left and went to Jim Martin’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. I believe we went to Jim Martin’s house. I think that I -slept there that first night. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet anyone else that first night or speak to -anyone else that first night, that is November the 24th, 1963? - -Mr. SENATOR. November 24? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Are you talking about Friday? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; November 24 was a Sunday. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because I was wrapped up. I was wrapped up in the -courthouse all that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean to say after you left the beer parlor, which I -think you said was the TV Bar? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said you think you went to Jim Martin’s house? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I met Tom Howard. I just don’t -remember the incident but I am almost certain that I went there to -sleep. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went to Jim Martin’s house? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am asking you is that prior to the time—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Did we meet anybody else? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember but I don’t think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s come then to Monday morning. - -What happened then? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if you can let me interrupt you here before -you get to Monday morning. - -When you met with Martin at the TV Bar, did you all talk about Jack -Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there was discussion of it, that there and the -events. Of course, he asked me what happened after I got in there. I -told him. This detective, I guess, I just don’t remember who the man -was, they interrogated me and I told them the FBI interrogated me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Martin say anything to you about Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember. I don’t think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether or not he had seen Jack while you -were being interrogated by the police? - -Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I think he said he seen him at a -glance behind us, I think it was the same window that I saw. They had -him in this room there and I think there were three or four men there, -something like that, but there was this glass partition. In other -words, you could see in. I think he saw him. I am not sure but I think -he saw him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tom Howard at the TV Bar at that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I remember there was Jim, there was this -other attorney, but I don’t remember if Tom was or not. In other words, -I don’t want to quote and say he was or wasn’t because I just don’t -remember. He may have been now. He may have been there. I just can’t -think if he was or not that night. He may have been. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what your conversation was about at the TV -Bar? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; of course, I told him—he asked me what happened, you -know. I told him I was interrogated by the local police and the FBI. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack’s defense? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Saturday night, the 23d, you spent some time with Bill -Downey and Mike Barclay? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see them? - -Mr. SENATOR. We were sitting at a bar. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bar was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think we were in the Burgundy Room and then we went to -another one there and had I think either one or two beers and then we -went home. At least I went home anyhow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other bar that you were in? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was very seldom I ever went there. I’m trying to think -of the name of it. It is a short name too, and I can’t even put my -finger on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What street was it on? - -Mr. SENATOR. On Fitzhugh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was on Fitzhugh. It runs off of, I think—down where -Travis is? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. - -Mr. SENATOR. Fitzhugh and Travis. I should know the name of it but I -can’t get it off my tongue. It is a short name too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that anywhere near Hall Street? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; this is uptown about I would probably say from the -downtown area I would imagine it would probably take you 10 minutes to -get up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean the time you spent with Downey and -Barclay—what did you talk about with them that night, Saturday night? - -Mr. SENATOR. We talked about the occurrence of the shooting of the -President, that there. It was just a gloomy night. That is why I didn’t -want to stay long. I said I wanted to get home and they said they -wanted to get home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a date to meet them at the Burgundy Room? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I met them both by chance there. Now I am not -sure if I had a date to meet Bill or not, I don’t remember, but I think -Mike just walked in casually. I mean just happened to walk in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Bill married? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Mike? - -Mr. SENATOR. Mike; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they know Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Who don’t know Jack in Dallas? They all knew him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time would you say you spent with them -Saturday? - -Mr. SENATOR. We went to that bar, I would roughly say maybe a half hour -to three quarters of an hour, I would guess around that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at the Burgundy Room? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that is when we went to this other place and had a -beer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All together, the time you spent at the Burgundy Room and -the other place on Fitzhugh how much time did you spend with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. Maybe an hour and a half. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then when you went home what did you do? - -Mr. SENATOR. I went home and went to bed. I think I took a newspaper -with me, if I am not mistaken and went home and went to bed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to bed at what you would consider an early -hour Saturday night? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would say it was somewhere around 11. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much sleep do you normally get, when you go to bed, -how much sleep do you normally put in in a night? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, that would go according to what time you -went to bed, you know. It could be 4, 5, 6, 7 hours. I doubt if I ever -stay in bed more than 8 hours the most, if it ever happens that long, -which is rare. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that on Sunday morning you -arose by 7 o’clock? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I got up that early. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you didn’t get up that early, then would it have been -because you got to bed late that night after 11 or after midnight? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I must have been home about 11 o’clock that night. I -think I read a little bit but I know I was in bed before 12. I think I -was in the apartment around 11. I got home around 11. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think you got more than 8 hours sleep that night -or do you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I doubt if I got more than 8 hours sleep. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I suggest to you that in all probability you got up -on Sunday morning before 8 o’clock. - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say around 8. Now mind you I got home 11 o’clock; -so I assume I got in bed maybe around 12. Now mind you it is not -necessarily that you fall asleep right away. Look, there is many a -night that I toss and turn for 4 or 5 hours and didn’t fall asleep, -which is rare, but it has happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have trouble sleeping that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean when I went to sleep, when I fell asleep I -slept well. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s see. I think we were at the point of Monday -morning, and I should like you to tell us what happened on Monday -beginning with the time you got up on Monday morning. I think you said -you slept at Jim Martin’s house. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do the next day? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got up and I drove him to his office and I think -from there I went—— - -Mr. HUBERT. In your car? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I drove him down, and I dropped him off, and then I -went and had coffee. I don’t remember if it was around 9 or something -like that. He gets down about 9 in the morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anything happen at the coffee shop? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing particular, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did the people there talk about Ruby and your connection -with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Talk to me about him? No; they didn’t say anything, but -they knew, you know. The people who knew me knew. - -Mr. HUBERT. But nobody said anything to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the fact that you had been his roommate. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it was pretty silent. It was pretty silent. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened the rest of the day? What did you do that day? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I just roamed around in a fog that day, nothing in -particular. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t attempt to do your normal business? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t in any condition for business. I didn’t feel -that good. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember seeing anybody that day at all. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am certain—who I saw I don’t remember but I am certain -that I seen people; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that sometime you saw Howard and you don’t -know whether you saw Howard the night before. - -Mr. SENATOR. It is very possible that I may have seen Howard the next -day. I may have seen him. Now where or when I don’t know, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you see him about? Can you tell us what the nature -of the conversation was? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I heard that Howard was getting the case, the Jack -Ruby case. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see him about what? Put it this way, did he -call for you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or did you just decide to go and see him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t call for me. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went to see him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I saw him sometime during that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it was about, what you talked about? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe it was anything particular that we talked -about except I heard that he was getting the Jack Ruby case. - -I don’t remember the particular conversation at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you can tell us this then. Since he didn’t call -upon you, you called upon him, what was the purpose of your visiting -him? To find out the status of it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Of me? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. To find out the status of Ruby’s defense, to see if you -could help, to see if you could throw light upon it, to find out what -was going on? - -Mr. SENATOR. Everything in general was going on, you know. The -photographers were around and the newspapers were around, and I believe -he was down at the jailhouse. It is a conglomeration of things going on. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you went to see him, and I suppose that was the purpose -of the visit, that was the purpose in mind. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no purpose in mind. It was just going to see -him. When you say the purpose in mind—I was so mixed up myself I didn’t -know what was going on. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am not trying to confuse you. - -Mr. SENATOR. There was no general purpose in mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying to us is then that you just went to see -him, Mr. Howard, and that there was no purpose in mind. - -Mr. SENATOR. No particular purpose in mind. I saw him. I saw Jim Martin -later on that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you excuse me a minute. Will you take over. - -(Short recess taken.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply ask you to remember everything that Mr. -Hubert has been in the practice of repeating before we proceed. - -Mr. SENATOR. If I can remember it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To the effect that you are still under oath and we are -continuing under the same circumstances that we began. - -I believe we were talking about Monday, and you had indicated that on -Monday you went to see Tom Howard. - -Mr. SENATOR. I saw him. I just don’t remember where. Monday there was -so much excitement going that when I say excitement, of the occurrence -of the day before, and with your photographers around town and your -pressmen and whatnot, you know, and the incoming of the FBI and things -of that nature there, you know, it was a crazy cycle, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any members of the Ruby family that day? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I saw them that day. I can’t quote every -instance. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his employees? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I went up—let’s see, the club was closed Friday, -Saturday and Sunday, and I think they did open Monday, and I think -I was up there Monday night, if I am not mistaken, and, of course, -going up there you had all your photographers, especially the ones -from Europe and various parts were coming around. Of course, everybody -wanted to see what the Carousel Club was. You know, it was just a -mixed-up thing, so many things were going on there, and you were just -roaming here and there, and, of course, people were questioning. A lot -of people wanted to take pictures of me and this thing here. It was -just a jammed-up, mixed-up day. - -I know I saw Tom Howard that day. I don’t remember where I saw him, if -I called on him or what it was because so many things were going on -there and my mind was in a muddle even with that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The questioning that took place on Monday, did it have to -do with what you had done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What Jack had done on Friday, Saturday or Sunday? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nothing in general. I mean there was nothing -particular. I mean all my questionings—I mean all my questionings—I had -that Sunday you know, with the local detective or whoever the gentlemen -was, and the FBI man. - -But Monday, when they wanted to know about Jack Ruby, they wanted to -see pictures of him. They wanted to see the club of his. They wanted to -see whatever they could get their hands on to see. They wanted to know -this about him and that about him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they want to know if he was involved with anybody -else, whether there could have been a plot or a conspiracy to kill -Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am certain that probably would run through the minds of -everybody. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they asking questions about that? - -Mr. SENATOR. They have asked me so many questions that I can’t even -remember to think of them, you know, because there were so many -questions thrown at you. And when they are throwing them at you, the -general questions, they wanted to see the club, they wanted to see -pictures, who were the strippers, this, that and whatnot. There was -nothing precise except the curiosity of the things they wanted to see. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you talked with Howard, of course, Howard -indicated to you that you probably would be a witness for Jack, did he -not? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the incident at that time. I don’t -remember if he said it or not because I would probably say it was a -little too soon at that time, the happenings, and I assume that Howard -was kept pretty busy at the beginning, probably going to see Jack Ruby -and this. You see, people were grabbing everybody. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall talking with anyone -about being a witness for Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. At that time it didn’t even enter my head. I wasn’t -thinking about that even. But as time went by, and I can’t specify just -how much time went by, I believe it was when Mr. Belli came into the -case. See, I don’t remember just how long it was from there until they -got this Belli. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: After you heard that Jack had killed -Oswald, did you have any idea, did you think, why did he do it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t the slightest idea. I couldn’t imagine why. I’ll -tell you why I say that. Because he never at any time ever gave me any -indication of anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since then—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I just couldn’t picture this man doing it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t think. I couldn’t picture him being of this -nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing that he had done that you had seen -up to that point that would indicate that he had any thought about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, none whatsoever. As a matter of fact, he had never -even mentioned this Oswald to me during this occurrence even, but he -had talked about the President, and he had talked about Mrs. Kennedy -and the children, I don’t know how many times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you think he was any more disturbed than what you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. He was plenty disturbed. He was plenty disturbed. The man -was crying. People have seen him, not only I, people have seen him -crying. As a matter of fact, one of the kids in the club one night when -we sat in a corner related he was crying and very, very disturbed. I -believe it was one afternoon he was in there, if I remember right, I -think it was the colored boy, Andrews, if I am not mistaken, I think -said he saw him in a solemn condition or whatever condition you want to -call it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were interviewed by Elmer Moore? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time? Who were you staying -with at that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t want to be quoted, but I think I was staying with -Jean Lauve then. I am not sure, but I think I was there at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the interview take place? - -Mr. SENATOR. At the FBI building. I can’t think of the name of the -building, but the FBI people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The office of the Secret Service? Moore is with the Secret -Service. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the Secret Service. I meant to say the Secret Service. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you and ask you to come down? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He had left a message at the Carousel or he may have -been up there. As a matter of fact, I can even show you his card if you -would like to see it. I’ve still got that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you were staying with the Lauves at -that point? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I was there. I’m not sure. I don’t remember just -where, but I think I was there at that time, because when Elmer Moore -called me, I just don’t remember how many days have elapsed by when he -called me, see. I think it was a few days that were elapsed by when he -called me and I think I may have been at the Lauves at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you return to work at any time before Moore—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Return to work? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; before Moore called you. - -Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t worked at all from this thing here up until I -told you I went to work the other day. If you want to classify me, I -was just existing here and there, that is all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your employment up until the time that the President was -killed was with the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your own company? - -Mr. SENATOR. I was classified as sales manager and partner, but with no -say. In other words, I had no money. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people, the backers? - -Mr. SENATOR. The backers? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. The people? A fellow by the name of Mort Seder and Ernest -St. Charles. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get involved in that? - -Mr. SENATOR. In the postcard business? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, Ernest St. Charles found out—see, he had a card rack -like a lot of drug stores do or gift shops or things of that nature. He -had found out that this fellow wanted to sell his business because this -was a minute business with him because, he had another one, you know, -which was much larger or whatever, the household goods or something of -that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co. was a -going business. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Seder and St. Charles got involved in it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was going. It was a going business. And he -wanted to get rid of this business, because I just don’t remember if -he couldn’t handle it or he couldn’t handle both of them, I think -it was. And this business here, he had to get rid of because it was -deteriorating a bit because it wasn’t getting the service. It wasn’t -being handled for the service. In other words, his business had slipped -a certain amount. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Seder and St. Charles put up some money to acquire -this business? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they put up the money; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much money did they put up? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think they put up somewheres around $1,500 apiece, and -I think they took a note for $1,500. I think the business went for -$3,000, if I can remember right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What assets, what kind of assets did they acquire? - -Mr. SENATOR. The cards. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No office space? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. See, he is in business in a little sort of a -garage like in the back of his house. In the back of his house he has -got this sort of garage-like thing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you talking about? - -Mr. SENATOR. The fellow that had it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was? - -Mr. SENATOR. I should remember his name. I can’t even think of his name -right now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, maybe you will think of it later. Did Seder and -St. Charles have another business which they operated while they—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this business was a small little thing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a sideline with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. Just a little thing. It wasn’t even, you know—it was a -small little business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Seder’s main business? - -Mr. SENATOR. Seder was a traveling man who sold men’s apparel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was St. Charles’ main business? - -Mr. SENATOR. St. Charles, a drugstore. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you acquire the postcards and novelties from? - -Mr. SENATOR. The novelties, you see, there was a few novelties that he -had left over in this thing here, in this business here, which weren’t -that good, and I got rid of them at a loss, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any—— - -Mr. SENATOR. There wasn’t that much. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any more novelties to supplant those? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you buy those? - -Mr. SENATOR. Some I bought locally and some were bought out of town. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it the postcards, you had some source supplying -the postcards too? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Seder and St. Charles between the time that -Jack Ruby killed Oswald and the time that Elmer Moore talked with you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him by telephone? - -Mr. SENATOR. Who? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Seder and St. Charles. - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that you did not feel any obligation to -report back to them and tell them that you were not going to be—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I was obligated, but the condition I felt, it was just a -no-care attitude any more. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any sort of a draw from this postcard and -novelty company? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your draw? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was $75 a week, but I was drawing $61.45. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue with your draw after Jack—— - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t continue after Jack killed Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. I didn’t do anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Elmer Moore talked with you, you were then -interviewed some time later by two FBI agents, Mr. Rawlings and Glonek? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were staying at that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I was staying with Lauve. The first approximately -10 days you know, I was just jumping around. But from there on in I was -with Lauve. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay with the Lauves? - -Mr. SENATOR. I must have stayed with them, I would probably say -approximately around 5 weeks, I think. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. I left Dallas, I think it was about the end of the first -week, if I remember right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of what? - -Mr. SENATOR. January. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you return to Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was the latter part of February. I think it was the -last week in February. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were away from Dallas, where were you? - -Mr. SENATOR. At my sister’s. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Freda Weisberg in New York? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your occasion for returning to Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. I knew I had to be a witness because I was called on the -first bond hearing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was your occasion? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For returning? - -Mr. SENATOR. I had to come back as a witness. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the bond hearing? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I was at the bond hearing before I went away. I -think I was at the first bond hearing. I don’t remember the date, but -it was in December sometime. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Agents Rawlings -and Glonek that you appeared at the bond hearing? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was before because I remember one day that I met one -of the agents. As a matter of fact, I was in the lobby of the Adolphus -Hotel and one of the agents hollered out, “Hi, George” and I turned -around to see who it was. It happened he was talking to some other -agents and they were departing, they were going home. - -So I walked over to him and I asked him who would I notify if I wanted -to, who would I notify with the FBI that I was going to leave, that I -wanted to go home but I wanted them to know where I was going, and he -mentioned, call Mr. Clements. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the first bond hearing, who was -representing Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Belli, Joe Tannenbaum—not Tannenbaum, Joe Tonahill. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyone else? - -Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard was in it, but at that time he had no say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened that Howard was not given any say? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I am not sure how to relate it, but I think that -Earl Ruby, who was in Detroit then, was still in Detroit, spoke to some -lawyer I think in Chicago now. I think it was in Chicago, looking for a -lawyer, a big lawyer for Jack Ruby, and this lawyer to my knowledge, if -I understand it right, was quoted to get Mr. Belli. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Tonahill? How did Tonahill get in? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Tonahill, it seems, must have been a friend -of Belli. The relationship I don’t know, how they met or something of -that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack Ruby between the time you last saw -him that Sunday morning, the 24th of November, and now? - -Mr. SENATOR. In the jail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to him? - -Mr. SENATOR. In jail, sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you talk with Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Various times, various times that Sheriff Decker would let -me up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before the bond hearing? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I did, yes. I think so. I think I was up there. I -mean I can’t quote dates. I don’t even remember what the date of the -bond hearing was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the first time you went up to see him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up with anybody? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, I went up alone. The reason for that, the reason I -say I went up alone is because nobody was up there, allowed up there, -besides the family and maybe very, very close friends because Sheriff -Decker wouldn’t allow anybody in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend with Jack that first time? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. You know, they have got a limitation on -you. I don’t remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn’t too long -because they let you know that you have got to go. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened on this occasion. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what it was. First of all, I never talked -to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that. -I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted -me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and -things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked -me to go, whom I never saw, never got to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s relationship with Gordon McLendon? - -Mr. SENATOR. He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned -a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond -hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come -to the bond hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He -rattled off the manager, I don’t remember the name, from the Statler -Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I -am not mistaken. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He didn’t discuss that, but I do know—I -can’t answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless you have some information which leads you to think -how he felt. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t have information on that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were -really serious about making bond? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with them? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn’t discuss -anything with me at no time. They said, “George, we are going to use -you as a witness,” which I knew they wanted me for that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the -case? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was part of the case; he was still part of the case -when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a -part of the case; is that correct? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not -sure, but I think he was. I don’t think he was in the case. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to -talk with Howard at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. I saw him on certain occasions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he got out of the case—I mean I really don’t know, -but I feel he got out of the case because he was—there was nothing, -practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to -describe him. He had no say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you? - -Mr. SENATOR. What? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don’t know how to -classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no -nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you -know, and then all the things materialized after that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail -cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was -tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. How many times? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. A guess? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would -guess. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice any change in him over this period of time? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first notice that he was changing; that there -was some change? - -Mr. SENATOR. I saw him very few times, you know, previous to when I -went away, but his change—when I really noticed the change was after I -came back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in February? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After the 18th of February? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. His voice was getting lower, and his head was hanging -down, and this is the way it was all the way up until the period, even -after the trial. I don’t know—I don’t know how to describe the words; -you call it deterioration or whatever runs through him; I don’t know. I -would never ask him anything like that, you know. I never spoke about -anything like that; anything but that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice a change—— - -Mr. SENATOR. He had lost weight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He had lost weight? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You noticed a change in his voice and something about the -way he carried his head? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else? - -Mr. SENATOR. And he lost weight. Of course, he quoted the Bible to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever done that before? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean to you; had he ever quoted from the Bible to you -before? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so, that I can remember of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What passages of the Bible was he quoting? - -Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t. He didn’t quote the passages, but he quoted -that he was reading the Bible. He didn’t quote any passages to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his manner of speech other than the deepness of -his voice? Was there anything about the manner of his speech? - -Mr. SENATOR. What do you mean; the manner of his speech? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Coherence, his ability to carry through on a topic of -conversation. Was he able to discuss topics as lucidly as he had -discussed them previously to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you, it got so that there was a hesitation. -The words were even silent. There was no speaking at times; just, you -know, like, you know. In other words, you know, there is very little of -him I could see. I was looking through this little glass. I couldn’t -touch him or nothing. In other words, instead of his wall being -plaster, the thing was steel or iron, whatever it was; see what I mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you and he would be separated? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. I couldn’t even touch him. It was impossible. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of him could you see? We are going to have to get -this on the record. This is the problem. - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I am standing up here and I am looking -through a glass about like this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking through a little glass door? - -Mr. SENATOR. And like this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A little glass window? - -Mr. SENATOR. A window something like this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 12 inches long and 8 inches high or something? - -Mr. SENATOR. Approximately. This is a guess. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At about eye level? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it’s eye level. And under it are these perforations -that you have to talk to; holes. You know; perforated holes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Perforations in a door of some sort? - -Mr. SENATOR. No door; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a wall? - -Mr. SENATOR. Just a wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could not see Jack other than through that window? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only thing. It is just a solid—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Steel? - -Mr. SENATOR. A solid steel wall. At one end was a door, but that was -solid, too. In other words, when you looked at the door you might as -well say it was part of the wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was the cell that Jack was kept in? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; this was no cell. I don’t know what cell he was in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack stay in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He was brought in? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is a hallway. This was a narrow hallway. Apparently -they didn’t let you know the cell he was in. I never saw him in a cell. -I have never seen any cells. They’d bring him down in, and, of course, -I can’t see which way they are coming through. All I can say is they -are coming this way when I walk in, and this is this little hall, this -little hallway. I can’t see every bit of him, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were these always the conditions under which you -talked to Jack, even before you left Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is the only way I have ever seen him, from beginning -to end. That is the only way I could ever see him. In other words, -there was no time that I could even touch him to shake his hand; -nothing, because there was nothing but a solid iron or steel, or -whatever it was, wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that, of course, you noticed the most -marked change in him when you returned to Dallas, and I take it from -that that, up until the time you left Dallas, you didn’t notice any -substantial changes in him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that there may have been a little—you -know, there may have been some change, but how much there was or how -much; I know this; I am certain within the man there would have to be -some change, because when I left already, how long has passed, maybe -5 or 6 weeks have already passed by. Within the feelings of himself, -which I don’t know, there must have been some change within him, you -know, which I sort of surmised. Now, how much, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Has there ever been any time that you have talked to Jack -where he wasn’t coherent? - -Mr. SENATOR. Take that coherent word and use another phrase. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You use a phrase that is more appropriate to you. I take -it you have some idea of what I am suggesting. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, when you say “coherent,” break it down to another -word and make it more simplified for me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime that you talked to him where it appeared -that he did not understand what you were saying to him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it, or even thought about it that way. I -don’t even know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever anytime when you would ask him a question -or say something to him and you would get back a response which did not -make any sense to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so; not that I can recall. I don’t think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime when you would ask Jack questions and he -would not be able to respond at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he was able to respond. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you at anytime talked with Jack about the events of -November 22, 23, and 24? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never at anytime have I ever been at that jailhouse where -anything like that ever come up. I have never asked him, and I don’t -think anybody would to my knowledge, would ask him questions like that, -because this would be a hard subject to talk about. I would assume -probably in the condition that he was in and the locale, the placement -of where he is in, of what he is in—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any fear; has he indicated -any fear to you in the times that you have talked to him since he shot -Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t look fearful to me. Now I don’t know, you know. -I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to do now is go through with you some -documents. I have got a series of photographs and other things here, -and I want to ask you some questions about them. I am going to hand you -what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit 5304-A,” which was -used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph, and -I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you recognize where that -photograph was taken? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am not familiar with it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. Where is it supposed to be? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you look at the man who is tending bar? Do you -recognize him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it is a pretty shady picture to see his face. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit -5304-B, which was also used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. -That is another photograph, and it shows a girl in a western costume -standing on a table. Do you recognize any of the people in that -photograph, or do you recognize where that photograph was taken? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; never seen a place with elkhorns or whatever they are. -Is that a night club or a restaurant, that place? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I was hoping you would be able to tell us. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I’ll tell you with a guess; it looks like a -restaurant, according to the curtains. That is what it looks like to -me. I don’t even know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as “Exhibit -5302,” and unless I indicate to the contrary, all of these exhibits -have been used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a -photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; is he a Dallas man? I don’t know that man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to -look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small -photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty -small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don’t know who he is, but I -have seen him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating a fat, obese man? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him? - -Mr. SENATOR. At the Carousel. I believe these occurred, I think, when -they were having—what do you call that now? I think when they were -giving prizes away, if I am not mistaken, on this particular time, and -then sometimes they would have on Friday or Saturday, Saturday night, -amateur hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be amateur strippers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while—there was one girl who would always bring -up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do -the twist. Now this wasn’t every night; only this one girl when she was -on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of Jack’s stripteasers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist -once. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That big, fat man? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I can’t see the faces here. But I can’t help but -recognize him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t make out the faces in looking at those -photographs? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is an M.C. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the center photograph at the top? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The left-hand side in the third photograph? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi’s? Yes; that -is Tammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I -know her, but I can’t tell which one that is. That is about all I can -see there. The majority are all customers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers. - -Mr. SENATOR. No, because they ain’t looking this way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you -recognize any of the people in those photographs. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is Tammi True. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi -True? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the customers? - -Mr. SENATOR. This you can’t see at all. This you can’t see at all. -I can’t tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of -seeing. This you can’t see hardly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any -of the people in those photographs? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know the stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is Kathy Kay, but I can’t recognize anybody from the -back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody -in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is Little Lynn. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Little Lynn? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last -name? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Bennett. - -Mr. SENATOR. Bennett; yes. I don’t recognize anybody else here though. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with -Jack Ruby the last time? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. All I know—see, I didn’t always come -there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her -there and, of course, I didn’t know who she was. She had already been -there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn’t know. -This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that -gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was at the trial, was it not? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one of the hearings. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn’t -have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was -a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there, -that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that, -and she didn’t even know the gun was in there, according to what I have -heard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t talked to her about it? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as -you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you -recognize anybody in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know the stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other -way. That is why I can’t recognize anybody. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize -anybody in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay? - -Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I -don’t know his name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The top picture in the center? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And the cocktail waitress. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the cocktail waitress? - -Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie something. I don’t know her last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side? - -Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie. I don’t know her last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize anybody else? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me see. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in -there? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay. -This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can’t see no faces there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers, -do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures? - -Mr. SENATOR. You don’t want the strippers, right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am looking for the face here but I can’t see it. This -one I can’t see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don’t think -so but I just can’t see their face well. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat -man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do -you recognize any of the people? - -Mr. SENATOR. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no, -I don’t. The M.C. I don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the M.C.? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know his name. He was only there a short -while, this particular one here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K. - -Mr. SENATOR. Where did you get this good picture? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the people shown there? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is the cocktail waitress. I can’t distinguished who -it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to—— - -Mr. SENATOR. But I am not sure. I’ll tell you, I am looking at the head -because it is sort of baldish. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you -don’t recognize any of them? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you -recognize anybody in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you -recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby’s right, or left as you -look at the picture? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl on Jack Ruby’s left, Jack’s left but the right -side of the picture? - -Mr. SENATOR. Alice, I don’t remember her last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Alice worked for Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two, -but I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack date Alice? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack’s apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think she came there once for I think it was a job -interference. I think for some reason, I don’t know what it was because -I didn’t stay, but she was there once. She came there one afternoon. I -don’t know what happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of -the girls in that picture? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the -picture? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes: Little Lynn on the right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you -a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures -of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to -look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these -memoranda. - -Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those -that are shown in those photographs? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it -don’t matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes, -everything else like he kept his money, all over. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home? - -Mr. SENATOR. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn’t -immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It -would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is -the way he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I can’t say yes or no, but not to my -knowledge that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home? - -Mr. SENATOR. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is -write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper, -sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by. -I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is -just no particular type piece of paper with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I -don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Emma Ship? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know -somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jean Bordon? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which -are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a -notebook which had a cover which said “Aladdin,” and I ask you first of -all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in -his pocket, I assume that is it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look through those photographs and look through -all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you -recognize that notebook? - -Mr. SENATOR. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he -had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of -them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to read what is on those pages? - -Mr. SENATOR. Some yes and some no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall -having seen this particular notebook? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a book. Now, I don’t know about the cover, -but I know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or -three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know -that he had a notebook of some sort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to -be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on -there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Leonard, isn’t that right? That is Leonard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them. - -Mr. SENATOR. Frank Barber. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names. - -Mr. SENATOR. Frank Bourber or Barber. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize -any of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. May I make this suggestion? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SENATOR. I know some of the names on there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting? - -Mr. SENATOR. It probably could be Jack’s, I guess. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you recognize Jack’s handwriting? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think, offhand, I would, but I assume these -probably are Jack’s handwritings, I guess. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Pauline? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Pauline Hall? - -Mr. SENATOR. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know the face but I -may not recognize the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that. -Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name. -I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be -Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas -Club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she worked there at times? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; not steady. I wouldn’t say she worked there steady. -There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I -have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven’t seen -her working. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Billy Brook? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Bobbie Patterson? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but I can’t think who -it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that -name Bobbie Patterson, but I can’t refresh my mind. It seems I have -heard that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Howard Foster? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sammy Tucker? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do, -would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you could read them. Could you go through there and -pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on -there you can’t read. - -Mr. SENATOR. What is this? Is this Goody? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure. - -Mr. SENATOR. Fred Fillman, I don’t know who he is. You want me to sound -out the names, don’t you? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just comment on the ones you recognize. - -Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? It looks like Rita. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Ruth Shay. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had better make reference to the document you are -talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with -reference to Exhibit 5305-F. - -Mr. SENATOR. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I -don’t know. I have heard that name. I don’t know who she is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What name are you talking about? - -Mr. SENATOR. Tex DeLacy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the -name R. T. Brown on there. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who that is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you 5305-H. - -Mr. SENATOR. There is no other names on there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names -on there? - -Mr. SENATOR. What is that, Joseph Rossi? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. The rest are just figurations here, -numbers or moneys. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer. - -Mr. SENATOR. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In -other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out -how to classify him now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he does. - -Mr. SENATOR. He is with, I think he is with AGVA. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how -he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to -do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the entertainers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met Tom Palmer? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the -street, or something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many different occasions would you say you have -met him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more. -I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to -Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of -that nature, but he always came to Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him -in the few weeks before Oswald was shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you -recognize any of the names on there. - -Mr. SENATOR. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what -that says? I don’t know her, but is that what it says? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that -name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. And Woodruff, I don’t know who that is. But, mind you, -I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don’t know the -names. I may know them if I see their face. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. J. B. Gruber, I don’t know who he is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you -recognize any of the names on there. - -Mr. SENATOR. KLIF radio station. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. KLIF? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don’t know if -Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says diskjockey. I knew he was -something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have ever met him, but I have heard of -that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have, -but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don’t -know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with -these. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Alex Gruber? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not -familiar with the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you -recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L -is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn’t hand it to the -witness. - -Mr. SENATOR. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen -to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Buddy Turman? - -Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used -to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real -fine fellow. That is why I say I don’t know Nick. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he a friend of Jack’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was of Jack’s sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Turman through Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Through Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him -some other place. I met him some other place. I can’t think where I met -him, but I didn’t meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack’s -place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This -Nick Turman, I don’t know if this is related to him or what it is. I am -not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know -a name Norma, and I can’t place it; I wonder if this is somebody who -ever worked for him, Norma. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you -know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or so before—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West -Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was -going to the West Coast to train, because from there—now I don’t know -if it ever materialized—from there he was going to England to fight. I -can’t think of that heavyweight fighter. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Wilcox? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn’t fight too -long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very -awkward, and sort of a slap, like. Do you remember who that is? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No, I don’t. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in -prizefighting? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to -watch them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But he never expressed any particular interest to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, but he liked to watch the fights. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the -fight game when he was a younger man? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross’ bag around. How -young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don’t remember. But I know it -was as a youngster. - -I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other -one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi, -so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little -Lynn. - -Wait; I haven’t gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there, -and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For entertainers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don’t know the rest -of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N, -and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize -any of them. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it -says The Smoker’s Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his -last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe -store. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What dealings did Jack have with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. None that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t smoke, did he? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of -people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the -name, but I don’t know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at -one time or another; and I don’t know who this Kierney Aikens is. I -don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A-i-k-e-n-s? - -Mr. SENATOR. A-i-k-e-n. I don’t who he is. What does this say here? -This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Etheridge? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ray Hawkins? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Blake? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is -5305-O, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And -I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I -will hand you that. There is a name “Bishop” written there. Does that -name mean anything to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who it -is. I don’t know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of -that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and -tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Shore? - -Mr. SENATOR. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes -with it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Uhlevitch? - -Mr. SENATOR. Does it say what he is? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. - -Mr. SENATOR. Is he local, Dallas? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume so. - -Mr. SENATOR. What is the exchange? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t give an exchange, just the name. - -Mr. SENATOR. Uhlevitch? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Stanley Kaufman? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a lawyer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to -you about him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that -Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another, -whatever it may be, but I wasn’t—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a personal friend of Jack’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now, how -personal, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman -as you were to Jim Martin, for example? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, but I know that—as a matter of fact, even -now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they -keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don’t know what you want to actually -call close, you know. I can’t tell you what close is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Hilt? - -Mr. SENATOR. I never heard of that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Shepard? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know that, either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Abe Klinman? - -Mr. SENATOR. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do work for Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. He has done some work for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jerry Wilson? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Riaf? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer’s name is on here, but you have talked about -that. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman? - -Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for Jack -for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed -Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don’t know how -to describe it. He is an idea man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A promoter? - -Mr. SENATOR. Things that he makes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. An inventor? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in that classification. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman? - -Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is—no; no business dealings. The only thing -is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show—you know what I -mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look—exhibits. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things did he exhibit? - -Mr. SENATOR. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do -with them. In other words, he wasn’t manufacturing them, but he had -already made these things. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he exhibiting these items? - -Mr. SENATOR. At a place called Market Hall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ed Pullman—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying -to promote. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is what they call—what do they call the little thing? -It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you -get on it and it moves around like this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a weight reducer, like? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a twister. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard? - -Mr. SENATOR. It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that -he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like -that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I -think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try -and sell them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a month, what would this month cover, from the -1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of -November? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it was either September or October, somewheres in -there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose -interest in it, or something? - -Mr. SENATOR. It never materialized. In other words, look, he had -competition because there was one already out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this twistboard? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it was manufactured by somebody in, I don’t know -the name of the place, in Fort Worth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was associated with Jack in the twistboard -project? - -Mr. SENATOR. Nobody. This is something that never really got off the -ground. See, I think Jack had—what was it—maybe four or five or six -dozen of the things. I just don’t remember. But it never got off the -ground. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He bought these, and then what was he going to do with -them? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was going to have them manufactured to resell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy them from some place other than Fort Worth, or -from Fort Worth? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure whether he bought them from Fort Worth or -some place else. I don’t know just where he got them from. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of material were they made out of? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was a compressed—I don’t know what you would call it—it -was a compressed thing. In other words, let me say that it was about -this size here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about a foot long? - -Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A foot square? - -Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square, and on the bottom of -it—this is a compressed thing. I don’t know if you call it a compressed -board, or what you call it. There was a compression. Then on the bottom -of it it had, I believe, a steel roller with ballbearings in it, on the -bottom, so the thing could revolve. Under that was another piece of -staple, where it was staple. In other words, it had to hold the weight -of an individual. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was something that you would lean up against? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. It was on the floor, and you just got on it like -that, and you go—I am not a good exhibit for a twister. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you would stand on this board? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, you would stand on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn’t put it up against your back, or anything? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You would stand on it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Strictly stand on it, and it was a novelty. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the bottom part would remain stationary? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part would swivel as you moved on it? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. In other words, instead of going in the -twist, this thing did it for you. In other words, you revolved and, -of course, this was classified as an exerciser, or something of that -nature. As I say, it never got off the ground. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, nobody else was involved in the -promotion of it with Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Newman? Do you recognize that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. John Newman works for the Herald or the Times, the Herald -or the News. He works for either the Dallas Morning News—I forgot -now—or the Herald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I met him on occasion when Jack used to go up there to -place an ad once in a while, when I was living with him in 1962, you -know, I went up there with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Newman at the Carousel Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I have or not. I just don’t remember. I -couldn’t say yes or couldn’t say no. I just don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit -5305-R. Bill Petty. Do you recognize that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but don’t know who it -is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Cantrell? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Gladys? - -Mr. SENATOR. Gladys who? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all it says. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. J. B. Herred? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Oscar Newman? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit -5305-S. Gloria Rettig? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn you have mentioned. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Vicky Williams? - -Mr. SENATOR. Vicky Williams; I don’t know that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the photographs that pertain to the -Aladdin notebook. I am going to hand you what has been marked for -identification as Exhibit 5309-A, and this is a Xeroxed copy of another -notebook that has on the front cover, “This is a Robinson reminder. Jot -it down. Do It. Tear it. Live notes only.” - -I am going to hand you this and ask you to tell me, first of all, go -through it and tell me if you remember ever seeing that notebook. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I have seen the cover of this. These are little -tear things out, aren’t they, you tear them out? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be perforated -segments. - -Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that what it is? That is what it looks like. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page. I believe that is right. - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name Sue Pepper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are looking at the first page of that notebook? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are going to identify the names? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name. I don’t know who it is. A lot of -the names I heard, but I just don’t know who they are. Does this say -Jack Hanover? This is a little hard to read. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yanover, I think. - -Mr. SENATOR. Carroll Walker I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a Jack Hanover? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know the balance of these in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Jack’s. I assume it is. I am not sure, but -I assume it is. It all looks like the same. I have seen the cover of a -book like this. Now, the insides of it I have never seen, but I think I -have seen it on him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are turning to the next page. Does that have a -small numeral down at the bottom of that page? It has numeral 3. It is -actually the second page on which there is any writing. - -Mr. SENATOR. Wally what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Rack—R-a-c-k? Do you know a Wally Rack? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about the Doctors Club? - -Mr. SENATOR. The Doctors Club? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I never knew there was a Doctors Club in Dallas. What is -Linda’s last name? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Kuhox? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Kuhox. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything like that ring a bell? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know anybody here. He has some first names -here. I don’t know what they mean. Brenda and Angie. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those first names? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s turn to the page that is numbered 4. - -Mr. SENATOR. I know Bill Willis. Bill Willis was the drummer in the -band at the Carousel Club. Tom Palmer is here again. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked about him. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Kathy Kay is a stripper. Andy is the boy. I assume -that is Andy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Andy Armstrong? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assume the first name Kathy is Kathy Kay; right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is what I think it is anyhow. I don’t know. This -girl, I never knew her last name, but this could have been a former -stripper of some time back, this Lauri. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Lauri? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Lauri have a last name? - -Mr. SENATOR. There is a last name here, but I don’t know who. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the last name? - -Mr. SENATOR. Womack, W-o-m-a-c-k. I knew a Lauri, I think, that was a -stripper for him for a while. I think it was last summer if I am not -mistaken, or something like that. Russ Knight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. K-n-i-g-h-t? - -Mr. SENATOR. He is with a radio station, but I can’t think which one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew Russ. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have met him—I have seen him at the bowling alley when -we used to go up there at night. I have seen him on rare occasions when -he would come down to the Carousel. He was, I guess you would call him, -a disc jockey. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you bowl with? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes people—very seldom, mind you, very seldom—but -sometimes people from the club which was very seldom. As a matter of -fact, I only bowled one time, I believe. It wears me out particularly. -But very seldom. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack bowl frequently? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bowl more than you did? - -Mr. SENATOR. Maybe a little more. I’ll tell you, this particular alley -is a tremendous place in Dallas, but we always went up there to eat, on -occasions, when we did go. It was always we would go up there to eat. -They had a big restaurant there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What eating places did Jack frequent? - -Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times when he went out, the majority of the times -when he went out I wasn’t with him when he went out to eat. But he has -been to—of course, it probably pertains to the time of day or night, -you know, but he ate in the waffle shops, he ate at—wait; it will -come to me in a minute. There is a couple on Commerce just above the -Adolphus Hotel. What in the world is the name of it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Egyptian Lounge? - -Mr. SENATOR. He has ate at the Egyptian Lounge, but there is a couple -in the downtown area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That he ate at regularly, I take it? - -Mr. SENATOR. It is not, particularly. I can’t say regularly. I don’t -know. Let me say he just varies the place. He may want to try certain -foods, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack visit the Dallas Cabana? - -Mr. SENATOR. Dallas Cabana? What in the world is the Dallas Cabana? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Cabana Motel. - -Mr. SENATOR. The Cabana? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack has been down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have friends there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he has friends there or not. He certainly -probably does know some people there. Yes; there is one chap he knew -there that I know for sure, and I think he was the assistant, if he is -still there, was the assistant manager. There is Ralph Paul. Of course, -I am certain you have heard of his name before, Ralph Paul. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Ralph we talked about earlier. How often would Jack -see Ralph? - -Mr. SENATOR. Ralph would come up, I would probably say he would -probably come up maybe two or three times a week, about like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they telephone each other during the week also? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say they have. I mean, not that I was -always around when he did, if he did telephone him, but I am certain -there were telephone calls. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any occasion to telephone Ralph Paul? - -Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever have occasion? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I called him, yes; I called him a couple of times. The -reason I called him, I had no car, I had to go down and see him once in -a while, a free lunch. He has got this place in Arlington, if you know -where Arlington is, called the Bullpen. It is one of these barbecue -places. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Ralph Paul on the weekend of the 22d, 23d, -and 24th of November? - -Mr. SENATOR. By phone? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in person? - -Mr. SENATOR. It may have been possible that I may have seen him. I just -don’t recall if I have seen him on that weekend. I can’t say yes or no, -but it may have been possible that I may have seen him at the club. Oh, -no; the club wasn’t even open. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after the President was killed? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; no, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I have seen -him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have some recollection, though, that you might -have. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; let’s see. No; I saw him, I think the first time I saw -him was, it may have been, I would say within the week. I can’t name a -date or a day. But I will say within the week after the Ruby shooting -up at the Carousel. That is about the best that I can recollect on that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall talking to Little Lynn at any time on -Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23, or 24? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t even see her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know her husband? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; but I have seen him—if it is her husband—sort of a -blond. I will tell you where I have seen him. I saw him the day of that -trial when she was carrying that gun, he come up with her, if it is her -husband or if it is her boy friend, I don’t know what. - -The reason I say that, because to the best of my knowledge I don’t -even know if she wore a marriage band. But I have seen him. I think he -is sort of a blondish-haired fellow. I don’t even know his name. I am -through with this. Do you want the next page, page 6? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead. - -Mr. SENATOR. There is a Joe Slayton here. Of course, Joe Slayton—this -Joe Slayton, I know him by sight but I don’t know him by conversation. -Wally Weston, he was an MC of his. I know this guy only by reading -about him, Earl Wilson, the New York Post. I don’t know him. I believe -this Tony Turner here, this name is a stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. T-o-n-i? - -Mr. SENATOR. T-o-n-y it says here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is a stripper? - -Mr. SENATOR. Tony Turner is T-o-n-i. I think that is how she spells her -name. This says Tony, T-o-n-y, Turner. It could be a man. I don’t know. -I am only guessing at this one here. Tammi True. I know her. This is a -stripper. Then there is Kay here. I don’t know if that is Kathy Kay, -or what it is. That is all I know on this one. One here says Porter. -I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means, if that is a -porter, or what it is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know, either. How about page 7? Let me just read -off the names and see if you recognize them. Phil Olian? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda? - -Mr. SENATOR. Just a girl’s name? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think, I am not sure now; I think he had a cocktail -waitress by the name of Wanda, if I am not mistaken, at one time. I am -not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any acquaintances Jack had in Mexico City? - -Mr. SENATOR. Where? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Mexico City. Did you know of any acquaintances he had -in Mexico City? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any trips that Jack took? - -Mr. SENATOR. To Mexico City? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Not while I knew him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any foreign trips that he has taken? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, but I have heard at some time that he went to Cuba. -Now, that is before my relation with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear this from Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I have heard it, I don’t know if I read it in the -newspapers or where I read it, but I know I heard it at one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about Cuba at all? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about someone named Billie? - -Mr. SENATOR. B-i-l-l-i-e? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Is that a man or a woman? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SENATOR. Is there a telephone number? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. FE 9-7914? Toni Rebel? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think that is a stripper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney? Bill Towney, WH 2-8129? - -Mr. SENATOR. Bill Towney? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me place this Margo. This is a cocktail waitress that -he had, if it is here. It is a cocktail waitress that he had at one -time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin? - -Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like the one from Hollywood. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam George? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie? - -Mr. SENATOR. Margie was a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is the -same one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Peggy Steel was a stripper that he had at one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford? - -Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This man has an address, Huntsville State Penitentiary. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of any friends Jack had there? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, and I don’t want to hear of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think Linda could have been a cocktail waitress. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of that name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to figure if Sherry was a stripper. I am not -sure. I can’t make it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel? This man is from Chicago. - -Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan? - -Mr. SENATOR. Mickey Ryan, I know Mickey Ryan. Of course, Mickey Ryan -lives in California. He is in California. Mickey Ryan used to sell -cars, and he worked, the last job I think he worked at, he worked at a -club for a while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, a private club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he is in California or from California? - -Mr. SENATOR. From California, and back there. He is back in California. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was in Dallas at the time that the President was -shot? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he was, before or after. No, I don’t -really know. He may have been, now. I think he was after. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to return to California? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He said he was going back to California. I -met him one day, and he said he was going back to California. Now, why, -I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him before you went to New York to live with -your sister? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; yes. I never same him after I come back. I -saw him last year. It could have been, it may have been November or -December. I think it may have been December. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So some time after—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I think the last time I saw him was after the incident, if -I remember right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time, and this was before you left New York to -live with your sister? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or left Dallas to live with your sister? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think it was in December the last time I saw him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He told you at that time he was moving to California? - -Mr. SENATOR. He said he was going back to California. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; no particular reason why. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what acquaintanceship or relationship he had -with Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. As a friend. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any business dealings? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever work for Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. He may have helped him a little bit. Now, I am not sure. -I think he helped him for a very short while in the Carousel, if I -remember, but it was a very short while. Now, how long it was, I don’t -know. It was just a short while, though, I think he helped him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling? - -Mr. SENATOR. I knew a girl by the name of Lisa, and I can’t place it. I -am not familiar with the last name. I am trying to figure who, a Lisa I -knew. Now, I knew a Lisa Lynn. Lisa Land I think it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But Gail Hall, Monroe, La.? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk about any friends he had in Louisiana? - -Mr. SENATOR. Gail Hall? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Is there a city? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Monroe, La. - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention Monroe, La. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection have you heard him mention Monroe? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he met a girl once in Dallas that came from -Monroe. Now, if this is the girl or not, I am not sure. I think he met -a girl. I am not sure if he met her at the club, or where it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What about H. G. Tiger? - -Mr. SENATOR. Tiger? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher, F-l-e-t-c-h-e-r? - -Mr. SENATOR. E. Fletcher? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Is there an address or something? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. 40 Central Park, something or other. - -Mr. SENATOR. 40 Central Park? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Central Park, and I don’t know what. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. There is a fellow I knew by the name of -Ernie Fletcher. I don’t know E. Fletcher. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a friend of Jack Ruby? Does he know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean, I have never seen him with Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. I knew him in Dallas, yes. I have seen him in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do? - -Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen him in a long, long time, because the last -I heard, I think he was living in New York. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do? - -Mr. SENATOR. I never knew what he did. He was a promoter, but what, I -don’t know. I think he was an oil promoter or something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on page 9 of this particular notebook that we have -been looking at, there is the name Vivian, Statler Barbershop. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there is a manicurist there by the name of Vivian. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack frequent the Statler Barbershop? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. The barbershop he frequented the most was a -place in another section of town. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Loma Alto. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It may have been called the Loma Alto? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is two words, the Loma Alto section. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What general part of Dallas is that, northeast, southwest, -Love Field? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me say it was on the way up to that way, Love Field. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Towards Love Field from downtown Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. From downtown. I tell you, the best way I can describe it -to you is it ran off of—I have got a good memory, haven’t I? You are -writing that down, too? I can’t think of the name of the street. I’ll -tell you why he went to this barbershop, which I never knew. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. SENATOR. When the barber cuts his hair, he doesn’t like clippers. -He won’t let them use a clipper. He wants everything by hand, and he -could probably drive a barber crazy the way he wants his hair cut. To -my knowledge, I don’t think he lets a barber shave. You know how the -barber shaves you back here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He won’t let him shave the back of his neck? - -Mr. SENATOR. You know why? I’ll tell you why. Because he grows hair too -fast. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you, that your hair grows too fast -when it is shaved off? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you know how some of the hairs will grow in the rear -of a person, like mine, I have got a few, the barber will shave them -off. He wants them clipped off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So he requires the back of his neck to be clipped rather -than shaved? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, he has got a barber, he has got this barber who -knows just what to do with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack concerned about baldness? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, you should only know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us. - -Mr. SENATOR. He used to drive me crazy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he would have these treatments. I don’t know the -name of the place where he got these treatments, and he had the stuff, -you know, they’d rub into his head, whatever this medication. I don’t -know what the stuff was, you know. - -I have always seen him use it, whatever it was, and he would rub it -into his head. He spent 45 minutes under a shower when he was really -working with the stuff, and he would rub it into his head. He was -always combing his hair all the time, what little was left, but he -couldn’t stand being bald. - -He used to comment, “How does my hair look; how does my hair look?”. -And it was really funny. I used to laugh, but he would get mad when I -laughed at him. But he was very, very particular about his hair. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been this way all the time that you knew him, or -was this something that had come on? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; this is, of course, as long as, you knew, as long as I -have known him. Actually, I can’t say as long as I have known him, but -as long as I have been around him. Oh, man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And he actually had some treatments for his hair, didn’t -he? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure, sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these called trichology treatments, or something like -that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the nature of the word they used. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go to some practitioner? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who worked on his head? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went to somebody, he actually went. And I believe -he picked up all his medication from him, too. They came in plastic -tubes, a little vial like. I would probably say these tubes would hold -approximately maybe about half a pint. He had two different types -whatever they were; one was wash and one was rinse, or what it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would use these on his head? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And was this a daily thing that he did? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any particular ritual, any period of time of -the day that he would do this? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it was just whatever time, not particularly. It could -be in the morning, but I would say it was about every day, once a day -some time, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you told us yesterday, I believe it was, that Jack -would spend 45 minutes in the bathroom, or something like that, he was -very slow getting up in the morning, was this part of the procedure? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he did it that day or not. I don’t -remember if he did it that way, but I tell you, when he gets in the -bathroom when he is going through the entire ritual, he takes longer -than a woman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Part of this ritual would involve this scalp treatment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Hair treatment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What else was involved in the ritual? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, the door was closed, you know. I am not -actually watching him. Of course, the shave and the shower. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he shower every day? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure. I will tell you when he really did his big -cleaning up was at night, before going to work. That was when the big -ritual was, he spent a big time in there. But it was really something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The next one I am going to hand you is Exhibit 5204. This -was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I don’t believe there -are any other marks on here. I am going to ask you to look at this -notebook, or rather, the Xerox pages of a notebook, and ask you, first -of all, generally if you recognize that notebook? - -Let me say that the notebook, if you will turn to the first page of -all those papers that are put together, and look at that first page -carefully, you will see that the notebook had written on the cover just -the word “Addresses,” and, of course, we can’t tell from what color the -notebook was or what material it was made out of, how it was bound, -although it appears to be not a looseleaf kind of notebook but one that -was perhaps stitched at the back or something. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall anything like that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know he had two or three of those little things. Like I -told you before, I knew he had two or three of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting in this particular -notebook? - -Mr. SENATOR. I assume it is Jack’s. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t actually recognize it as Jack’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure, but I assume it is Jack’s. To me they sort -of all look like the same handwriting, so I assume they are his. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at the first page that has writing on it, which -actually in this exhibit is numbered page 2, and tell us, do you -recognize any of the names there? - -Mr. SENATOR. There is one here, and the reason I recognize this name -here, Patricia Stevens, because Patricia Stevens I think is a modeling -school. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. In Dallas? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack deal with that modeling school? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that name through any association you -had with Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only way I would recognize the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on that page? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page, which is page 3, and tell us if you -recognize any of the names there. - -Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here I am not sure of, but it says Thelma -Brown. This could be a singer. I am not sure. Or Bertha Brown. I know -there is a girl by the name of Brown who was a colored girl, who was a -singer, and she has come pretty well up the line. Now, if this is the -girl or not, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sing for Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. A long, long time ago when she was smaller. Now she is -big-time. Now, where she is singing I don’t know. I don’t know if that -is her first name, but I know there was a girl by the name of Brown. I -don’t know if it was Thelma Brown, Bertha Brown, or whatever it is. I -am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on page 3? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to page 4 and tell us if you recognize any of the -names there. - -Mr. SENATOR. Ed Bernet. I have heard that name, but I don’t know what -it is. I can’t make out what it is. It sounds like an entertainer, but -I am not sure. The others I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any other names on that page? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. There is only one other name there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page. Is that page 5? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I don’t know who that is. It is just one name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What name is that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Bill Capehart. I don’t know who that is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to turn to page 6? - -Mr. SENATOR. Bob Eisman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who he is. There is nothing else but the -name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you want to turn to the next page, page 7. -Do you recognize that name, Ham Faust? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 8; do you recognize the name there? - -Mr. SENATOR. This boy here, he is resting in peace. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel? - -Mr. SENATOR. He died of a heart attack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he die? - -Mr. SENATOR. He died, I would say, I would probably say a year and a -half ago, which tore Jack apart because they were kids together all -their life. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From Chicago? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He has been gone now about a year and a half, maybe 2 -years, I am not sure, something like that. Now, the other name I don’t -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Gibson. What was Jack’s relationship in Dallas with -Mr. Gimpel? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was a tool salesman. He traveled. He sold tools. Now, I -have never seen him sell them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what kind of tools, household tools or -industrial tools? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I think they were industrial tools. To my knowledge, I -think that is what it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Gimpel have a family in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he single? - -Mr. SENATOR. When he came here, he didn’t always stay here. I mean, I -haven’t known him that long, when I met him, but when he was here, I -don’t know how long he stayed. He stayed, and traveled. But in this -area, or rather in the Dallas area, or wherever he was traveling, I -don’t know if it was in the State of Texas or out of it, or just where -he traveled. Of course, he stayed with Jack because he didn’t pay no -rent. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack supported him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 9. - -Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here that I think is an entertainer. I am -not sure, Trinidad, Colo. Wait a minute; that is Trinidad, Colo., but I -knew somebody by the name of Trinidad. There was an entertainer. Cecil -Hamlin. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he? - -Mr. SENATOR. He is with the union. Now, what capacity or what, I don’t -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which union? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which union. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, because I have only seen the man one time -in my life, and the time that I saw him I was introduced to him, not -knowing who he was, down at the courthouse, at the courthouse. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that at the trial or the bail bond hearing, or -something like that? - -Mr. SENATOR. It was at this trial here, in the lobby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ruby trial? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I saw him in the lobby once. That is the only time I -ever seen the man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never seen him before? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I had never seen him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had never heard Jack speak of him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have heard the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard Jack speak of him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack has asked me to call him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection? - -Mr. SENATOR. There was somebody, there were a couple of people owed -Jack some money, and he asked me to ask Cecil to see if Cecil would -call them to get the money or pick up the money. He had a couple of -hundred dollars out, and he wanted to ask him if he would be kind -enough to collect it for him or try to collect it for him, or call them -up, or something of that nature. I don’t know the rest of them. Page 10. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the names on page 10? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a stripper, a part-time stripper, at one -time, I am not sure. Of course, I don’t know if this is, but this says -Grapevine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Grapevine, Tex.? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I don’t know. A girl by the name of Linda, but I -never knew her last name, so I don’t know if this is her or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who this is. I have seen this name before on -other pages, Jeanie. I don’t know what that is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 12. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13. - -Mr. SENATOR. Latin Band, is that what that says? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like that. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am thinking of Larry, the kid who works at the club, but -what would the Latin Band be? I don’t know who that is. I don’t know -who this is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 14. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 15. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This doesn’t have a page number. - -Mr. SENATOR. This is a repeat of the other. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A duplicate of the previous page? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t say it is a duplicate of the page, but the -name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s read the name so that the record is complete. Pat -Sancipian, Patricia Stevens. Xavier Cugat? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know the name. Who don’t know it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack never talked to you about him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; where he got it, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning to another page, which doesn’t have a number on -it, Sam Schwartz. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Robyn Hoy Smith, Tom Teel? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And turning to the last page, which is numbered 20, it -simply says Elizabeth. You don’t recognize that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you another book that is marked Exhibit -5202, which was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and it is a -blue spiral notebook with the word “Penway” written on the front. It -is called a “Penway Memo Book.” Look through that. - -Mr. SENATOR. Is this Jack Ruby’s book? I can’t picture him writing like -that. This is terrible handwriting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking now at the Crafard Exhibit No. 5202. Do -you recognize the handwriting in that book? - -Mr. SENATOR. There is only one person who I think possibly could write -like this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess, and say probably Andrew, maybe. I -am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize it as Jack Ruby’s handwriting? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think it is. I don’t think this is Jack Ruby’s -handwriting. Jack don’t write this bad. This is terrible writing. I -don’t think that is Jack’s handwriting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to go through this notebook. You -mentioned, looking at page 1 of Exhibit 5202, in which there is written -some words such as “Save, Vegas Club, Jack’s home,” and so forth. And -there is the name Buddy, with the words “Fort Worth” written after it, -and a telephone number underneath. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. SENATOR. This could be probably this guy that he was going to have, -I imagine, I am not sure, probably made those twistboards. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Buddy? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen him; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the name St. Charles. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And St. Charles is written on this first page, with a -telephone number under it. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. SENATOR. That probably is his home number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember St. Charles’ number? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the number offhand; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever have anything to do with Mr. St. -Charles? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing whatsoever. He knew him. He used to go through -and buy some medicine, or whatever it might be, a toothbrush, and -things of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. St. Charles ran a drugstore? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he has a drugstore in the Statler Hilton Hotel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. St. Charles have any connection with Jack Ruby’s -twistboards? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Never knew he had a twistboard. I would -venture to say that this book here, this is only one person I think who -has a handwriting like that, that would write this here. This probably, -this could be, though I have never seen this book, the handwriting -looks like Andrew’s, Andrew Armstrong, the colored boy. This is what I -think it is. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. You made the remark that you know -that St. Charles didn’t know anything about the twistboards. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But have you talked with St. Charles since Ruby shot -Oswald, and have you learned from St. Charles that he was unaware of -the twistboards? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have seen St. Charles exactly one time since then. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What prompted you to make the statement that St. Charles -didn’t know anything about the twistboard? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, to the best of my knowledge, he -didn’t know anything about the twistboard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You would be surprised if he did? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I can’t say. It is possible that he did, but I -would say, to the best of my knowledge. I can’t say positively. I don’t -think he did. Now, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over page 1, look at the names there. There are -two names at the bottom of the page. You testified about Abe Klinman. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the attorney. That is Earl Ruby, and Ed Pullman, -which I mentioned before to you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even read the first name. It looks like Leona or -Lena. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Leona? - -Mr. SENATOR. Miller; is that who it is? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It might be. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Clark Dotty? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over to page 2, do you recognize any of the names -on that page? - -Mr. SENATOR. This says Mar-Din? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. This is another name, Henry Denture. I wouldn’t know who -that is. Earl Products. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will skip over the back of page 2 because there is -nothing on there that you haven’t talked about. Look at page 3. - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even understand what that last name is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the first name on there. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what it is anyhow, but I can’t even read the -last name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any of those names there? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that is Shay, I believe, isn’t it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ruth Shay. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I think we talked about this one before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now on the back of page 3 you have mentioned -Stanley Kaufman. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But there is a Riky Kasada. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles or Mills? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On page 4, Norma Bennett? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Judy Armstrong? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt Nelson? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman you mentioned previously. - -Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; his name is Buddy. Wait; he comes from Tyler, Tex. -Yes, here it is. This says Buddy. I didn’t know him by his first name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman is—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The other Turman we talked about is Nick Turman? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know who that is. Now, see, he is known -by his fighting name, is Buddy Turman and, of course, that is all I -recall. I never knew it was Floyd, but he is billed, and everything -else, as Buddy Turman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 4 there is the name Buddy Heard. Did -you know Buddy Heard? - -Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Heard, yes. He is an entertainer who worked for Jack -once, I would probably say about two years ago was the last time he was -in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack maintained a relationship with him recently? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say it was approximately, it must have been -approximately two years ago. He worked for him, I think, one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say “no” to my question about Jack maintaining a -relationship with him recently? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names that you see there on the -back of page 4? Do you recognize any of those? - -Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? Is this Burt? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt. Did you know a Burt? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to direct your attention to page 5 because -page 5 doesn’t have anything on it. I believe it has nothing on it that -we haven’t already talked about. The back of page 5 has the name “Jerry -Lindsay”. Do you recognize that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. Floorman, that is the man that worked on the floor or -did some work for him, or something, but I don’t recognize the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name of Leo? Do you know anybody -named Leo? - -Mr. SENATOR. Leo Tardi? He worked for Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Tardi. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he work for Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. The last time he worked for Jack, he had worked both -clubs, you know, the Vegas and that one there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of work did he do? - -Mr. SENATOR. After the shooting he worked up at the club at nights and, -of course, he was a salesman in the daytime. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But what kind of work? - -Mr. SENATOR. He took the tickets in, you know, the $2 admission fees. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he sell during the daytime? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think clothing in a store. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what department store he worked for? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or what store? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. It was in one of the downtown stores there. I don’t -know which one it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to pass over the front half of page 6 because -there is nothing written on there that appears to be a name, and I will -direct your attention to the back of page 6. Do you recognize any of -the names there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him, at the radio station. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Gifford? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anything else on there? - -Mr. SENATOR. What is this supposed to say? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. S-c-h-r-o-l-l. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at the front of page 7. Do you recognize any of -those names? - -Mr. SENATOR. This particular Leonard I have mentioned to you before, -the booking agent. The thing is to read these things. Who can read them? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me help you, if I can. - -Mr. SENATOR. What does the top one say? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Roskydall. - -Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Lenard you mentioned. E. J. Evans? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. What is this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Groveland? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Stevens Park Beauty Salon? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Maisl Brothers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Boy, I tell you, you do all right with them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The back of page 7, I will read these off to you. Ed -McMulmore. Does that mean anything to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. McKinney? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The front of page 8; Leonard Wood? - -Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Milton Thomas? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Clarence McInnis? - -Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. James Dotson? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. James T. Aycox? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Nothing on the back of page 8 or the front of page 9. -Page 9, the back is blank. Page 10 is blank on both sides. Page 11 is -a half sheet which is blank on both sides. Page 12 I won’t direct your -attention to because there are no names on there. The back of page -12, the only name that appears on here is Bill Remike. Does that mean -anything to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is the name, Bobby Patterson. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 13. I will turn over to the back of page 13. There -is the name, Tex Lacy, which we talked about before. - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about that name, but I don’t know what -capacity Tex Lacy is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I said the back of page 13. Now on page 14, which is -about a third of a sheet of paper, there is the name Frank Fisher. Did -you know Frank Fisher? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher? - -Mr. SENATOR. Frank Fisher was a trumpet player and the leader of his -band at one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of a band? - -Mr. SENATOR. In the Carousel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what else did he do besides performance as a musician? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he an interior decorator? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. If he was, that is news to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you or did you know in the week or so -before the President was shot whether Jack was considering opening up -any new night club? - -Mr. SENATOR. He had talked about one. I have never seen it. But he was -talking about a location that he had mentioned on McKinney Avenue. I -think this was a house type place and, as far as I know, nothing ever -materialized or whatever it was going to be. This is the only thing I -knew about it. He never took me over there. I have never seen it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack going to finance it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That I didn’t know. Possibly he may have -been looking for a partner. I don’t know, or how or what I don’t know. -You’ve got me there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I won’t mention the back of page 14 because there is -nothing there. Clark Boland, does that mean anything to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it seems that is a radio station there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Herman Flowers? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. K. Hamilton. That is the front of page 16. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller, Collins Radio? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Cody City Hall; do you now anybody by that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jimmie Rhodes, do you know him? - -Mr. SENATOR. The name sounds like I heard of it, but I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Wooldridge? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Litchfield? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Moddy? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back cover is written the name Newton. - -Mr. SENATOR. The only name I know of a Newton would be John Newton of -the newspaper. If that is him or not, I don’t know, because this is a -telephone number, I assume, isn’t it, but there is no prefix to it. -Maybe this is it now. I don’t even know if that is him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to look at the Earl Warren sign, -“Impeach Earl Warren” sign, on Friday, or was it Saturday morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack write anything down? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I didn’t see him write anything down. I -can’t quote if he did or didn’t, but I didn’t see him. I will put it -that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any newspapers in the car with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. That day? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I really don’t know. I just don’t refresh my mind if he -did have any newspapers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive Jack’s car? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he drove it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest now we probably ought to break to two-thirty. - -(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m. the proceeding recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED - -The proceeding reconvened at 2:10 p.m. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will repeat what we say at the beginning of each -session. We are taking this deposition under the same conditions that -we started out with, and you are under the same oath that you have been -under at the outset. - -Just before we took a break for lunch we had been through a number of -notebooks which had many, many names in them. Let me ask you about some -other names. - -Did you know or hear Jack mention a Lawrence Meyers? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This man would have been from Chicago and he would have -been engaged in a sales capacity in sporting goods. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, wait a minute. You mentioned sporting goods. That’s -right. I met someone up there. As a matter of fact, Jack got a pair of -pushups from him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbells? - -Mr. SENATOR. If it is Lawrence Meyers. I think that is the name. I am -not sure. Barbells, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you met some man or you heard of some man? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you think might be Lawrence Meyers? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know who you mean. When you mentioned sporting -goods, then it—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know of this man? - -Mr. SENATOR. I met him at the Carousel one night when he was in town. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would that have been? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I think it was in the summer. I think it was -this past summer. I think it was in the summer of 1963. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been in the month of November of 1963? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I think it was much longer, much before that. Well, -it couldn’t have been that. The reason I say that is because I wasn’t -living with Jack then. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In November of 1963 you were. - -Mr. SENATOR. I was living next door to Jack. I wasn’t living with him. -When you mentioned—was it November? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; because—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you met this man you were not living with Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was still living in my same apartment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You met him—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I think this was some time in the summer, or maybe the -latter part of the summer of 1963. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with this man in the Carousel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, he was up at the Carousel. From there we went out -and had a bite to eat, and that was it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And can you describe him? How old a man was he? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say he was 6 foot tall. I would say he -is around about 6 foot. I don’t remember the color of his eyes, black, -brown, or blue. I don’t remember. Either they are brown or blue. He had -a good healthy build, now, of a normal man of that height. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man was he? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say maybe in the late forties. I am not -sure. I am certain it is in the forties, if anything, you know. It -could jump up a little more. I would probably say he was in the—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to know this fellow? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That was the one time I saw him in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you learn about him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t learn anything about him. I knew he was selling -these things, sporting goods, I guess, of various natures. As a matter -of fact, I heard him mention once that they had a plant or something -like that in, I think, Bonham, Tex., or a plant or something out there -too, which is maybe about 75 miles from Dallas, or an office there or a -plant or something out there I know. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it -is a manufacturing plant they had there now. That was the only one time -I saw him in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any idea how Jack came to meet this fellow? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mentioned the name Alex Gruber. - -Mr. SENATOR. Who? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Alex Gruber. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were going through the notebooks? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe you indicated you didn’t recognize that name. - -Mr. SENATOR. Not the name; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I can put this to you. Did you know of any -friend Jack had in California who might have been at one time a truck -driver? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. A truck driver? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember anybody that Jack was going to send a -dog to in California? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. I have heard that mentioned before. I have -heard it mentioned. I don’t remember now if I read it in the newspaper -or from mouth to ear or what it was, but I have heard that, that he was -going to send it to somebody in California. Who it was, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. J. McWillie? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name McWillie, but I don’t know him. -Is it McWillie? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e. - -Mr. SENATOR. All I know is the name McWillie. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about that name? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know him. Never met him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you heard the name? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard Jack mention the name in the club. He was an -old friend of Jack’s at one time or another. From where, what or how, I -don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack—— - -Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I thought McWillie was two names. I -thought his first name was Mac and his last name was Willie. But, of -course, I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack who are in jail -presently, in the penitentiary? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a friend, a fellow who Jack had a business -association with, who is now in the penitentiary on a sodomy charge? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that there is somebody. It might be -Huntsville. It might be. I am not sure. I heard that somebody is down -there. Now who the man is, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk about him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have heard it mentioned quite some time ago, but who he -is, I don’t know. I don’t know the man. As a matter of fact I don’t -even know the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the name H. L. Hunt? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think everybody is. He is one of the very wealthy men. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention having met him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know H. L. Hunt is politically active, he has a radio -program. - -Mr. SENATOR. He is in everything. He is in many, many things, I -understand; oh, well, I didn’t know what all his activities are, but -the name is like, when you hear the name, it is like listening to the -name of the President—I mean that well known, I would say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen Jack with any literature that was put -out by H. L. Hunt? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of offhand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard Jack mention Lamar Hunt? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. That is his son, I think. I don’t think -so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, George, have you ever belonged to any -political organizations? - -Mr. SENATOR. Never, never. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t simply mean by that the Democratic Party or the -Republican Party, but any kind of organization which was interested in -some public issue, or something. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your practice with respect to using Jack’s -telephone? - -Mr. SENATOR. What was what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your practice with respect to using Jack Ruby’s telephone -at home. I take it you used it to make local calls. - -Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while; yes. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make long-distance calls, telephone calls, from -Jack’s home? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By long distance I mean any toll call, even to Fort Worth. - -Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t think I ever have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to call Ralph Paul from Jack’s -telephone? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have called him, but I don’t think I have ever called -him from the house that I can remember, mind you. Now I don’t know if -I have ever or not. I can’t quote and say “Yes, I did,” or “Yes, I -didn’t.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether or not on Friday, November -22, you made any long-distance phone calls from Jack’s telephone? - -Mr. SENATOR. On November 22? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Friday, November 22. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day, on Saturday? - -Mr. SENATOR. On Saturday? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any toll calls on that day? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. When I say I don’t think so, I don’t -remember if I did or not, but I don’t think so. I don’t want to say -“No” positively or “Yes” positive, because I am not sure. I just don’t -think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Saturday morning, November 23, do you -remember whether Jack received any telephone calls that morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall, for example, whether Larry Crafard -called that morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if he did or not. As I say, I can’t be -quoted, because I ain’t positive. I can’t say yes or no because I don’t -remember on that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first become aware that Larry Crafard was no -longer in Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. The following Tuesday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out about that? - -Mr. SENATOR. When I went up there I asked Andrew one night, and I -happened to remember that it was Tuesday, one of the things I do -remember, and I said to Andrew, I said, “Andrew, where is Larry?” I -said, “I didn’t see him yesterday either,” or something like that, to -that effect, and he said he had left, and I said, “When did he leave?” -He said he had left Saturday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Andrew know that? - -Mr. SENATOR. He said—I think now he said he took $8 from the till, -or something to that effect, and I think he left a note that he was -leaving, something like that. These are not positive words, but I think -this is what he said. Something to that effect. And that is the first -time I ever knew. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andrew have any explanation as to why Larry left? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of. Incidentally, Andrew was back at -the trial, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry? - -Mr. SENATOR. I mean Larry, because Andrew lives in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; he was at the trial? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they said he hitchhiked in from Wisconsin or some -place out there. I don’t know where it is. They said he hitchhiked all -the way back for the trial. That is what I heard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I talked to him when I was sitting on the witness -bench one day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he came back to Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; but he said, he mentioned that he hitchhiked back, but -he didn’t say why he came back or anything of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he left? - -Mr. SENATOR. No: he didn’t. I never asked him. As a matter of fact, -I wanted to ask him, but I didn’t. I couldn’t imagine why he left. I -believe he was on the witness stand. What happened, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know we were talking about what you did on Saturday. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. During the afternoon. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here in front of me a copy of a statement that you -provided the Dallas Police Department. I notice in here that you say -that you left the house around noon on Saturday. - -Mr. SENATOR. Something like that; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that you had some things to do. Now try to think back -to when you talked with the police department. What things did you have -to do on Saturday? - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t imagine. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with your -business? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t work that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any shopping to do other than for the -groceries you bought? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I did that. I don’t remember if I did that. I just -wonder if I did the laundry. I normally do the laundry on Saturday or -something. But I don’t even recollect if I did that that day or not. -I don’t remember. I think I saw Jim Martin, but to the best of my -recollection anything I did was only minute, just the passing of an -afternoon, or something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some recollection of having seen Jim Martin on -Saturday? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I had a cocktail. I am not sure, but I think I had -a cocktail with him, at the Burgundy Room. I think I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been in the afternoon? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he is around his office between somewhere -between 12 and 1. I mean that is when he will leave, he won’t leave -before that, and if I remember right—I am not sure on that—but if I -remember I think we may have had a cocktail at the Burgundy Room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do begin to have some recollection of having -spent some time at the Burgundy Room? - -Mr. SENATOR. I know I was there that day, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean Saturday afternoon. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I may have been there for a while, because I know -later on that I met who I mentioned yesterday, Bill Downey, that I was -there, and that we went some other place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Downey before—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw Downey the latter part of the afternoon, or -something like that, or the early part of the evening. I don’t know if -I met him in the latter part of the afternoon or when it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. It might have been in the early part of the afternoon. I -am not sure. But I also met him later. It must have been around 8 or -8:30 when we went out together. I was at the Burgundy Room. Then we -went to this other place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that you saw Downey then both in -the afternoon and the evening? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw him in the afternoon, but the evening for -sure. I think I saw him in the afternoon. I am not sure. I think I made -an appointment to meet him later, and then we would go out for a beer -or two. This is what I think. I think now I am not sure on that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you troubled on Saturday over your having gone with -Jack out to photograph this impeach Earl Warren sign? - -Mr. SENATOR. Was I troubled when I went with him? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday did this trouble you in any way? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean Saturday afternoon? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean did I think about it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I imagine that I would probably say that I had thought -about it; yes. As a matter of fact, I thought about that thing many a -time; I don’t know why; I don’t know why he wanted to go out that night -and take these pictures. He never mentioned why he wanted to see it or -why he wanted to snap the pictures. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention this to the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You did mention, however, that you went out with Jack and -had coffee with him that morning? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; at the Southland Hotel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, this was all in sequence with having gone out -to see that Earl Warren sign? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But what was it that made you omit to tell the police that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Nothing particularly. I don’t know why. Just it was a -shaken-up day for me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you worried that this might hurt Jack to talk about -that particular episode? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, it would do him justice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you feel that way? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think if a man is exploring somebody who put out a sign, -whoever it may be, who would want to impeach Earl Warren, our Supreme -Court Justice, or somebody who would put out these whys about the -President the day he is coming here, which weren’t good, the whys, I -would say that this would be in favor of him of wanting to know these -things, why should they be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Why would somebody want to impeach Earl Warren? For what -reason? I don’t know. I mean I don’t have the answer to it. But why -would a sign be put up there? Why did they want to impeach Earl Warren? -Impeach him about what? I have asked myself this many times, but I -don’t know the answer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You see, it seems strange that you should have mentioned -your going to the Southland Hotel and having coffee and that occurred -immediately after you had gone out to see the Earl Warren sign and had -also gone to the post office—then I say I wonder how you could have -forgotten it, once you had your mind on having one to the Southland -Hotel. You know you didn’t go right from your apartment to the -Southland Hotel to have coffee. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know why. I know I explained that to -Elmer Moore one day, and I said, “Elmer,” or “Mr. Moore,” rather, when -he was questioning me, I said, “Elmer, of course, the first day I had -been shaken up,” and I had mentioned to Mr. Moore when he took my text -of the whole thing how going about the sign, the two signs, how these -had bypassed my mind. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Two signs? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, when I say the signs, the billboard and the -newspaper ad, when they took my statement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked to me on the telephone from New York, I -guess it was on Monday—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You asked me if I had a copy, or if I had seen the Bernard -Weissman ad. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it that in your mind this is a justification, -this somehow is a justification or some assistance to Jack in his -defense, the fact that he was interested in finding out about that -advertisement and about the sign? - -Mr. SENATOR. That’s right. He wanted to know the whys. He wanted to -know why somebody would want to impeach him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this a thought that has come to you after knowing, -or after having talked with the attorneys and knowing what the strategy -of the trial was going to be? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Talking with people? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is this something that you felt almost immediately, -that this would be a justification? - -Mr. SENATOR. I thought definitely in my own thinking that this was a -justification, because when I was put on the witness stand for the bond -hearing in early, I think it was, December, I am not sure just when -it was, when I was questioned about that by Mr. Alexander, I told him -that if anything this would be helping Jack, in wanting to know why -something of this nature would want to be put out in Dallas. Why did -the Dallas Daily Morning News want to accept an ad like this when the -President was coming into town that day? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out with Jack, did Jack tell you at all what -he was going to do with this information that he got? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he might have been working for a -newspaper? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Trying to do some freelance work for a newspaper? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there wasn’t a thing mentioned. I say when Jack gets -his mind set on something, he wants to know why, the information, the -why. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first learned that Jack had spent -sometime at the police station on Friday night? Did you ever learn it? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean the Friday when he was bringing the sandwiches -and things of that nature there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When did you first learn about that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think it was after he woke me up that morning. I think -that is when he told me, and I think he mentioned it, yes, and then he -mentioned that he went to the synagogue there Friday and prayed for the -President, and that he saw his sister, and they were both crying, as it -was related to me, over the President. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t tell any of that to the—— - -Mr. SENATOR. To who? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To the police department when you talked to them on the -24th, did you? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. See, you must understand—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you take a look—well, go ahead. - -Mr. SENATOR. You must understand when a person is grabbed the way I -was grabbed, or I will say not particularly me, but any human being, -wouldn’t it shake a human being up? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it the police department asked you to tell them -everything you knew about what Jack had done. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me say in the condition that I was in, I was pretty -well shaken up at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that his being at the police department might -hurt him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t think about that. That didn’t even -enter my mind whether it did or not. All I know is he said he took -sandwiches over there, and that is all I know on that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Now why he took it over there, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot a lot of things at that particular time, -being shook up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention in this statement that you gave -the police department on the 24th—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Didn’t what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the statement that you gave to the police department on -the 24th. - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t mention what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not mention anything about the telephone call from -Little Lynn. - -Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that, too. Look, I told you. I was in a -shookup state that first day. Maybe I did forget about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am just wondering if these things, if you thought in -your own mind that those events which you omitted—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Was I trying to hide something? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, could hurt Jack, and you wanted to help Jack. - -Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t trying to hide anything. I definitely was not -trying to hide anything. But you must understand, like I repeated, -any individual in an event like this, now I can’t speak for anybody -else, but I would probably say they would be shaken up like I was, and -I want you to know that I was really shook up, that that would make -a lot of people forget a lot of things, and probably can’t remember -things, being grabbed that fast and being talked to that fast in that -instantaneous—I was pretty well shaken up that day, very good. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you did remember Jack talking about the President and -you mentioned you remembered that you thought you saw tears in his -eyes, and you remember his saying he was going to take his dog Sheba -down to the club. I am just wondering why it is you remembered some -of these things, but you didn’t remember some other things which were -just, perhaps should have been just as graphic, like going out to that -impeach Earl Warren sign—that must have just stood out as a sore thumb -to you. - -Mr. SENATOR. There was no particular reason. Now maybe a lot of things -that I mentioned there that I possibly could have forgotten, too. -There was no particular reason for it. There was nothing that I was -trying to cover up or hide because I got nothing to hide. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not suggesting that in any sort of invidious sense. - -Mr. SENATOR. It is just a shakeup of a fast brain, that is all, at the -moment, when all these things were happening. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C., -April 23, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5400,” and I will -sign my name to it. This is a copy of an affidavit which appears to -bear your signature which was sworn to before William F. Alexander on -November 24, 1963. - -Mr. SENATOR. Is that the man who had me? I don’t remember who it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is apparently the man who is a notary public who took -this statement. Look it over. Read it if you would. I hand it to you -now. Tell me if you remember signing that and if that is true. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is, that is my signature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Read it through to make sure as best you can remember that -that is a true copy of what you signed. It that a true copy of the -statement you signed? - -Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder then if you would sign that under my name. I hand -you that pen back. As I understand it, then, immediately after you -signed this statement before Mr. Alexander, you were then interviewed -by an agent of the FBI. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you shaken up in dealing with the FBI agent? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In this same, or rather in this interview with the FBI, -the FBI reports you as telling them during that interview that you -learned of Oswald’s being shot just as you walked in the door of the -Eatwell Restaurant. - -Mr. SENATOR. Just as I walked in? No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sitting. I was sitting. I wasn’t walking in the -door. I was down on the seat and already had my first cup of coffee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, one gets the impression from the FBI interview it -was your recollection on November 24 that you called Jim Martin after -you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was before you learned that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Right. I called him—wait, wait. No; that is right. I did. -But I wasn’t home. That was it. I called him and spoke to his daughter, -one of his little girls. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you learned that Ruby—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When I heard that Oswald was shot, but nothing -mentioned. There was no name or no club mentioned, Oswald was shot—that -is when I called him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to the FBI’s report on November -24, that you said you learned that Oswald was shot just as you walked -in the door. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you now remember that you were seated and had a -cup of coffee whereas apparently you didn’t remember that on November -24? - -Mr. SENATOR. Because the waitress who waited on me was the one who said -it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say it to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. She was behind the counter. Not specifically to me. It -was pretty loud. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a TV set on? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t know. She got her -information through either the phone, or they may have had a little -radio. I don’t remember just what it was, because I wasn’t looking -directly where she was walking around, or what she was doing, but she -was behind the counter, and I was sitting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between the time you learned that -Oswald had been shot and the time you learned that Ruby had been the -person who shot him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say within 5 to 10 minutes, something -like that. It was a short while I know. It wasn’t long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I’m going to mark a document which I have before me in the -following manner: “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator, -Deposition Exhibit 5401,” and I am going to sign my name to it. - -This document which I have marked as a copy of an interview report -prepared by Special Agent Kenneth C. Howe of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation, of an interview on November 24, 1963, with you, Mr. -Senator. It consists of five pages, typewritten pages, and they are -numbered 296 to 300. I have marked on page 296, and I have not marked -the succeeding pages. I want to hand you this and ask you now to -take the time to read it over, and then I want to know if that is an -accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time. - -I am not asking you whether, on further reflection, you would change -what you said in there, but merely whether that accurately reflects -what you told them at that time. If it doesn’t, why, will you point out -the parts that are not accurate, and we will see if we can’t correct it. - -Mr. SENATOR. Shall I make little notations here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there some places you want to change? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you mark on it—why don’t you do this—— - -Mr. SENATOR. It will only be a dot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just take this paper and make some notes on -it and then we can go back. - -Mr. SENATOR. There is going to be some changes in here. I will point -them out to you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got some changes to make there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I had better go over it with you though. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you read the sentence or sentences that you -would make changes in, and then we will discuss them? What I suggest -you do is read one sentence or a group of sentences that are wrong, and -then we will discuss that sentence or group, and then we will move on -to the next one. Go right ahead and read it. - -Mr. SENATOR. It says here, “He had only casual association with -him, mostly only as a patron to his club, from that time on until -approximately 3 years ago.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on page 296 of the FBI report? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Now it wasn’t 3 years ago at the time. This was 2 -years ago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, your association with Jack was casual up -until 2 years ago? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it was 1962, February, March, or April or -somewheres in there of 1962. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you change with your pen, strike out the word -“three.” - -Mr. SENATOR. On this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On that. And write “two.” - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean cross the three off and put a two in there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And then initial it and date it. - -Mr. SENATOR. It is going to be hard to squeeze it in between these -lines. Shall I put my initial after it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. You won’t be able to see it. These writings here don’t -coincide. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me talk a little bit more about this change in your -relationship with Jack. Up until approximately March or April of 1962 -when your relationship became more than casual, were there other people -in Dallas to whom you felt closer than Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I think maybe we are both misinterpreting this. When -you say closer, this is when I first started to—you know, when I was -down and out and I first started to work for him, and I was living -with him. You see what I mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is March or April of 1962? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say either February, March, or April, -something like that. I don’t remember that I was living with him, -because previous to that I still didn’t see him any more than I ever -did in the past. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And up to this time were there other people in Dallas whom -you saw more frequently than Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the only time I saw Jack is when I ever met him -anywheres, if I should run across him anywheres, or once in a while I -would go up to his club, that was all, and it has never been anything -but that up until that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see more frequently or on a more social basis? - -Mr. SENATOR. Actually I couldn’t see him frequently. Before that I was -traveling. See, I was traveling. I wasn’t home every weekend. There -were times when I was traveling, there were times I might miss a week -from coming home. It all depends on the location you are—if you are too -far from home. Then other times I might be gone two or three. It all -depends, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get some idea of is up until this period -that you moved in with Jack in 1962, who were the people that you saw -on a social basis? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, I have seen Bill Downey. What I want to impress you, -these people I don’t see every day, or like, you know, say I see them -today, tomorrow, the next day, and things like that. On rare occasions -I saw Don Taber. That time on rare occasions I saw Jim Martin. These -were all rare, mind you, then. See, I did more meeting. I met a lot of -people at the Burgundy Room most of the time. In other words, somebody -has a favorite hangout. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that Burgundy Room was yours? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is mine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For how long has it been your favorite hangout? - -Mr. SENATOR. Ever since I came to Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a place you would go almost every day? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say more so than any other place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you go there almost every day? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, not every day, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three times a week? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say yes, sure, and I always met some friends -there—after they all get out from work a lot of people always gathered, -transient or local, from 5 on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Burgundy Room to you is sort of what a private club -would be to a wealthier man? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is of that nature, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were certain other people who used to hang -around there? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby one of the people? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I have only seen Jack go in there that I can remember -twice, but he never sat down and had a drink. In and out. Walked in. -Jack is not a drinking man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be fair to say that for recreation and -pastime—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Just as one of my hangouts. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You would go to the Burgundy Room and have a few beers, a -few drinks? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Whoever walked in. I had many friends who walked in. -Whoever walked in, there is many girls that I knew, many fellows that I -knew. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not a man who spends his spare time—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Not particularly, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Playing golf or tennis? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you—the only habit I got is I like to cook, -this is my golf or what somebody else would do, or whatever he may -recreate in—I used to like to piddle around in the kitchen. That is why -Jack Ruby didn’t like me. You are not writing that? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean that you like to experiment with food? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I like to putter around. I enjoy puttering around in -kitchens. I done this for a long time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you worked in a number of restaurants? - -Mr. SENATOR. But not in that capacity. Of course, I was broken in, you -know. When I say broken in, I worked for my brother you know, years -ago, but I wasn’t classified as any cook or any thing of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any sort of specialty foods you like to cook? - -Mr. SENATOR. I like to mess around with different concoctions, I mean -because anybody can throw a hamburger on, you know, in the home, or -anybody can throw a steak on, whether it comes out good or bad, that -is not a challenge. But to try to make some concoctions where you mix -things—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Salads? - -Mr. SENATOR. They can be salads or any hot dishes, something like that, -or see how good you can make spareribs come out, which a lot of people -can’t make good, and then all the lawyers in Dallas think I am the -greatest when it comes to making spareribs, because I have been invited -many times, and I do put on a good rib plate. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in the habit of inviting people to your place -for dinner? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I have many a time. Nobody particular, but I have. I -mean this—I relished, I have been invited over to people’s homes. Jim -Martin has invited me to his place to cook. There is another lawyer -invited me over to his home to cook. They thought I did a good job in -the kitchen. While they sat down I was sweating in the kitchen, but it -was fun. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But Jack didn’t appreciate your cooking? - -Mr. SENATOR. He liked my cooking, but he wouldn’t eat it because he -classified me as one making rich, fatty foods, that would put a pouch -on him. This is the thing, because this is why I mentioned to you that -I love to make this avocado dish, which I mentioned to you before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is when we were having lunch. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t pull out an avocado salad today as I did -yesterday. - -Mr. SENATOR. I love avocadoes. I think they are great. I used to make -a concoction and put on avocado and everybody used to love it. I must -have put about nine different ingredients in it, but it tasted real -good, real good. They used to clean the plate out. That was a good -enough answer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there are some other things in that statement or that -interview report that I think you want to change. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. These don’t look like my words. I don’t say -that some of these aren’t factors, you know, but I don’t see, I don’t -think some of these are the direct words that come out of my mouth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you understand, these are not supposed to be -actually the direct words that come out of your mouth, but this is -their report of what they recall your saying. Now if it changes the -substance in some way, if they have used words that change the meaning -in some way, or the approach that you had, I think it is important to -bring that out. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this off to you. This is right after the next -sentence. It says, “Thereafter he considers himself to be much closer -to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself -closer during the past 3 years.” Now I don’t even know what that means. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t understand it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it to mean that you felt that you were closer -to Ruby but you couldn’t explain to them why you were closer to Ruby. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this to myself again? This don’t make sense -to me. Maybe I don’t understand what I am reading, what I have read to -you. Do you want to go over it with me? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. SENATOR. This part I read to you, start there, “Thereafter.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. “Thereafter he considered himself to have been closer to -Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself -closer during the past 3 years than the time before he knew Ruby.” - -In other words, they are saying that you couldn’t explain why you felt -closer to Ruby in this recent period. - -Mr. SENATOR. If I had just moved in, how could I really feel that -closer, just moving in? It doesn’t necessarily mean being close to him. -I mean, this I don’t understand. What do they mean when they say—how -can you just move in with somebody and say, say you are that close to -him? You are there, that is true, but what do you mean by being close -to him? If you had just gone in and had always known him casually—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn’t part of the reason that you felt closer to him in -recent years than you had long before is that you began to live with -him in recent years, and that automatically made you closer? You saw -him more often. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I mean the way this sort of states to me, unless -I misinterpret it, like I just moved in and I am that close to him -already, I am really like a buddy-buddy, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there is no mention in here at this point in the FBI -interview report of your having moved in with Ruby. - -Mr. SENATOR. In so many words, though, doesn’t it sound the same to -you? “... than in the past 3 years”. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but it doesn’t mention that in the past 3 years you -moved in and began living with him, whereas before then you hadn’t -lived with him. As I understand what you have been saying to us up to -this point is that your closer relationship simply resulted from the -fact that you began to see him every day, whereas before—— - -Mr. SENATOR. See the way I interpret this, the moment I moved in I was -already close to him. Of course, I know that I am in the same place, -but that is the way I am interpreting it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s let it stand for the record, then, that you did not -automatically feel closer to Jack Ruby at the time you moved in with -him. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your moving in with him was not the result of having -established a close relationship, but was a result of Jack’s taking you -in when you didn’t have a place to live and didn’t have any money. Is -that it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I mean the appreciation was there, I want you to -know, of these things. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did Jack happen to learn that you needed a place -to live and so he invited you in with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I identified myself that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you approached him and asked him if you -could move in? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t remember just how it was, but I was not in -good condition, I was hurting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And had there been something about Jack before that that -had indicated to you that Jack would be the kind of a guy who would -respond like this? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he has responded to other people like this, -and after that, and I have seen it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard before you moved in with Jack that Jack had -taken in other people or done things for other people? - -Mr. SENATOR. The example number one is the chap that I told you is -deceased—I don’t say this man was hurting, but he was still living in -Jack’s apartment for free. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Martin Gimpel. He was still living in Jack’s apartment for -free. I don’t say he was hurting for money, which I don’t know because -I didn’t know his business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew that at the time you approached Jack? You knew -Gimpel had been living with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know Gimpel that way, just from running across -him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But had anybody else suggested to you that Jack might be -willing to take you in? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; it was just one of those things that happened by -chance. That is all. Of course, within me I didn’t know what was going -to happen, but he took me in. I have seen other instances like this -chap Larry. Now he ran across him out at the fairgrounds. - -I don’t know what it was, but this kid here didn’t have the right time. -He was doing something out there. His apparel was nothing, and Jack -bought him a suit. Of course, mind you, he put him in the club, let him -sleep there, but he made him work, but he gave him a few bucks. He gave -him a place to sleep. He put some clothes on his back. - -And one time before he disappeared I even heard him mention once—Larry -didn’t have any front teeth, and I heard Jack mention once, “Larry, -we’ll have to do something about your teeth, to get you some front -teeth.” This is a true fact. As tough as this guy was at times, he was -soft too. He had a heart. Many a buck he shelled out to somebody to -grab a bite. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested you found this Ewing Street apartment. - -Mr. SENATOR. The new place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You made the decision—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Somebody told me to take a look at this new place going -up. At the time I looked at it, this place wasn’t even ready. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to Jack that he might also want to move in -there? - -Mr. SENATOR. I mentioned to Jack to take a look at it, see. This is -before either one of us were living there. The thing was still in the -working stages. It was coming round to completion, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As we had discussed before, you moved in with Jack in the -early part of 1962 and lived with him for about 5 months? - -Mr. SENATOR. But not at this place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at another place. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, during that 5 months you began to know the -man better. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You came closer to him, but you decided when you got a job -you wanted to move out from him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am curious as to why you decided that you wanted to -move out rather than decide that you would stay there and pay part of -the rent. - -Mr. SENATOR. Particularly one. I told you he didn’t keep a very clean -place, but should I classify myself to say a man who is unemployed, a -beggar—beggars can’t be choosers, that is an old saying, right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is part of it. All right, I know the overall picture -that Jack would rather live alone, see. I mean if somebody is out, -something like me, if I needed a place, all right, he would keep me. -But in the overall picture he would rather live alone. - -And many a guy has slept at his place whether the Carousel or one of -the apartments he may live in, and I don’t know how many he has lived -in previous to when I knew him where he may put up a guy for a night, -2, 3, 4, or 5, whatever it might be, and fed him, because he was tapped -or something of that nature. He has done this many a time, and I would -probably say even before I knew him, and I feel this probably could go -back to the hardships of his youth, because he, as I understand it, he -had a rough bringing up and growing up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about that to you? - -Mr. SENATOR. He talked about some of it, but I never heard all of it -come out in the courtroom. Of course, I never knew up until, you know, -the recent times that his mother was in an institution or a crazy -house, which I never knew. And, of course, I didn’t know how drunk his -father used to be, but I understand he was a habitual—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about his father when you lived with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he had mentioned his father, but he had never -mentioned his mother, never, which I never knew. Of course, this all -come out after the shooting, you know, everything come out, was brought -out either by the sisters or somebody. And I never knew about how the -kids were all separated, things of that nature, when they were young. -One was placed here, one was placed there, wherever they were placed. A -lot of these things I never even knew. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So this conclusion that you are now drawing—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say this might be why he has done some of -the things he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are drawing this conclusion on the basis of what you -have learned since he shot Oswald, and not on the basis of anything -that you knew beforehand? In other words, these things you have been -talking about, his father and his mother and the separation of the -children, this you first learned after he shot Oswald? You didn’t know -about that when you were living with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t know about it. I heard him mention that he -had tough days as a kid, but he never talked about them too much, -very, very little. All these things, the majority of the things that -come out, come out after the trial, I mean after the shooting. There, -of course, I think his sisters come out with the majority of it and -probably his brothers, when things had to be related and had to go back -all these years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead through there as you have, through that Exhibit -5401, and if there is anything else in there that you think should be -changed or clarified—keep in mind what I am primarily concerned with is -whether this report you are looking at is an accurate report of what -was told to the FBI at that time. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me run through this one: “He added he occasionally -when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two -with him until he got back on his feet”. - -Of course, this is a comma, and then it continues, but I want to -stop right there. Let me run through the whole thing. “He added he -occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay -a day or two with him until he got back on his feet, but he claims he -actually never lived with him until about November 1, 1963, when he -moved into the apartment of Ruby’s, apartment 207, 223 South Ewing, -Dallas, Tex.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; well, that is inaccurate? - -Mr. SENATOR. You know that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, my only question to you is when the FBI interviewed -you, and this is on November 24, did you omit to tell them that you had -lived with Ruby on an earlier occasion? - -Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge. I don’t think I did omit -that. I don’t think I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record is sufficiently clear. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now, there are a lot of things I must tell you which I -have told you before. I am not always sure of everything, you know. In -other words, I have to use these words to let you know that I ain’t -lying. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record will be clear from this deposition that -you didn’t live with him before November 1st of 1963. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, unless that you are certain that you did tell the FBI -about living with Ruby before November 1st, I would rather not change -it on there, write it in there, but I would rather simply let the -record show that we are making here, simply let it reflect that that is -inaccurate. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me run back on this one again, part of this again: - -“He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to -come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet,”. - -This was never, because the first time I stayed with him was when I -stayed at the club, and then moved with him, because I stayed with him -5 to 6 months, something like that. Of course, I don’t know how you -classify this, how important it is to you or not, because I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there occasions other than the time that you lived -with him for 5 or 6 months that you did come and stay with him for a -day or two? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It never happened? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with him. I mean I wasn’t in and out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it possible that you could have told them this in -the anxiety and turmoil that you were under at the time this interview -took place? - -Mr. SENATOR. I could probably say that anything at that time, that day, -could be possible. Maybe I feel it isn’t, but let me say that I wasn’t -in the best of condition that day. I would say anybody that was in the -nature that I was in, and I don’t care who the individual was, would -have been shaken up as well as I. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think again here now the record will reflect, and I want -to go through and point these out as you are doing, but I think the -record again here will reflect what is accurate as to what has actually -happened. - -Let’s let this thing stand, unless you are 100 percent sure that you -didn’t say that, let’s let it stand on there as written. By “on there” -I am referring to the Exhibit 5401. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now here is a point: - -“Shortly after Senator first met him, Ruby opened the Sovereign Club on -the second floor of the building on the southeast corner of Field and -Commerce in downtown Dallas.” - -Now this was before I got to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He was running the Sovereign Club before you met him? - -Mr. SENATOR. He was in the Sovereign Club; yes. I don’t know how long -he was in there, but he was in there before I came that close to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had known Jack? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have known him; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Even when he ran the Silver Spur, didn’t you? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t living in Dallas then. That is way before my -time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew him before he opened the Sovereign Club when he -only had the Vegas? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. This is the Sovereign Club. Wait a minute. It -says shortly after I first met him. My God, this don’t go that far -back, and I have known Ruby, unless he could have meant the Vegas Club, -I don’t know. Of course, I don’t know how important this is to you -either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Again here I am glad you pointed this out. Here I think -that this deposition will clear this up. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now here is one that says I wasn’t able to furnish the -individual’s name, but I know it now. - -“Ruby had a partner in the operation of the Sovereign Club, but Senator -was unable to furnish this individual’s name.” - -But we have talked about that name today. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton. - -Mr. SENATOR. Joe Slayton; yes, sir. Now I don’t think I knew who it was -then, who his partner was. “Senator can state only that he believes -Ruby to be the sole owner and operator of the present Carousel Club.” - -Now there was a backer and I knew him well, but I didn’t know the -conditions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reluctant at the time you talked to the FBI to -disclose this? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. You mean to hold back on them? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it sounds when you say that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I wasn’t. As well as I knew him I didn’t know -the formality of what he had to the Carousel as many times as he came -there. I didn’t know what his status was in it. I knew there was a -close—I mean he had a close relationship with Jack. He knew him well. - -“Ruby actively managed the Carousel Club although he still as far as -Senator knows owns the Vegas Club,” which we know different now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to go on to the next page? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am through with that page. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Look at page 297 of this same report and tell us if there -are any changes or modifications or corrections you want to make there. - -Mr. SENATOR. What is I.E., the initials? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That means in explanation. The sentence you are referring -to is, - -“Senator was of the opinion Ruby, since he is Jewish, feels somewhat -the same on things of this type as he (Senator) does, i.e., a Jew has -no right to express opinions of any sort, especially when he is in -business, since he has enough strikes against him just being a Jew.” - -In other words, this statement about a Jew having no right to express -opinions of any sort is a belief that you have, and the FBI is saying -you believe that, and you think Ruby believes the same thing. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe I said that. I don’t believe I ever said -that. I know that Ruby is a sensitive man as far as when the word “Jew” -comes up, you know, in something he don’t like. He takes tremendous -offense. No; I am not of the nature of Jack Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then do you feel that a Jewish person has no business -expressing political opinions, and so forth? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, they certainly have a perfect right to express -opinions as anybody else. I would probably say—let me say I think they -are more careful. I can’t speak for every individual, mind you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that Jack felt that a Jewish person has no -business expressing—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what he felt. All I know is that he gets -pretty sensitive when somebody is knocking it, or jokes and things, -things of that nature, he don’t go for it nohow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This language which we have been quoting arises in a -paragraph that starts out: - -“Ruby never expressed any special political preferences and never even -discussed political matters.” - -Then it goes on to state this view, that “A Jew has no right to express -opinions of any sort,” the suggestion being that Ruby never discussed -politics because he didn’t think a Jew should discuss politics. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. Of course, I can’t quote Ruby’s -words. I can’t think for Ruby like I can’t think for anybody else. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that now your present opinion is that -you have no information about Ruby which would make you believe that he -declined to be interested in political matters because of his Jewish -background, that is, his Jewish background discouraged him or made him -feel that he shouldn’t have this kind of—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t even answer that because I don’t even know. I -don’t even know. All I do know is I know that anybody comes out and -calls him a God-damned Jew or something to that effect, he don’t go for -this nohow, he just don’t go for it. He is sensitive that way. - -Now somebody could say it to me and I would probably be able to laugh -it off, whether I did or didn’t like it, but I tell you Jack Ruby don’t -laugh these things off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He is sensitive about being criticized because he is a Jew? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t feel, I take it, that there is necessarily -any connection between his sensitivity to being a Jew and his apparent -lack of interest in politics? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If now in discussing this situation in an atmosphere which -I take it is a little bit more relaxed than it was on November 24th, if -you were to offer a judgment as to why Jack Ruby didn’t appear to be -interested in politics, what would you suggest for the reason? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have no answer for it, but all I can say is these things -don’t interest him. He was not interested in these things. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his primary interest? - -Mr. SENATOR. Show business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about girls? How about sex? Is that an important -interest to him? - -Mr. SENATOR. It is as natural for him as it is for any other male human -being. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a matter, though—was sex something that he -discussed as much as he discussed his business, for example? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I don’t say—I don’t say that he hasn’t discussed -it, but I will say that there isn’t any male that hasn’t discussed it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead with that page 297 and point out any other -paragraphs that you would change or correct. - -Mr. SENATOR. In this next column here, the only thing is, “Ruby owned a -revolver which Senator could describe only by saying it was black. This -was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry -it back and forth between the club and his home because he usually -carried a fairly large sum of money.” - -Now there is only one little point there I want to bring out, and this -is the point I want to bring out: - -“This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would -carry it back and forth between the club and his home.” - -This was an everyday occurrence. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried it back and forth every day? - -Mr. SENATOR. When he left the house to go to the club, bingo, that went -with him. When he left the club to go home, that went with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Did he keep the gun in the apartment -or did he keep it in his car? - -Mr. SENATOR. He kept it in his apartment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He kept it in the apartment? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now would he keep it on his person or would he keep it in -a moneybag? - -Mr. SENATOR. It has been both ways. It all depends on how he is going -home. I mean, no particular reason. He has kept it both ways. - -Now, I can’t quote how many times he has it in his pocket or in -his moneybag, something like that, and I can’t even quote, maybe -occasionally he may have forgotten it and left it in the car. If he did -leave it in the car it would be locked in the trunk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the habit of taking the revolver out of the -automobile when he got to the Carousel Club and carrying it up into the -Carousel Club, or don’t you remember? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, he takes it up there, sure. He takes it upstairs. Now -if he does it every day, you must understand that I am not watching -every move Jack Ruby made. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know. I can’t quote the times, but I would -probably say the majority of times it probably went up, and then again -it may have went up all the time. As I say, I am not watching, looking -for a bag all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it also possible he may have only taken it up -occasionally to the club? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say the majority of the times it went up. -If you are asking me to break it down, I can’t break it down. First of -all, I am not always with him when he is going to the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. On the occasions that you saw him carry it -up into the club did he carry it up in his pocket or did he carry it in -a bag? - -Mr. SENATOR. The times that I have seen him, I have seen him have it in -the bag. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I would think that if he didn’t have a holster it would be -pretty cumbersome to carry that revolver around the club in his pocket. - -Mr. SENATOR. I have never known him to have a holster. I have never -seen one, never seen a holster on him, or what do you call these -things, shoulder? I have never seen one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see a holster in his automobile? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t even know if he even had one. This is a part -that I have had a lot of trouble with, with a lot of people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What part is that? - -Mr. SENATOR. This is the part—this is why I think they were probably -looking at me as a fag or a queer: “Senator on some occasions would -refer to Ruby as a boyfriend.” And I have said that to many people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to use that term? - -Mr. SENATOR. It is a word I have used all my life, when I was even a -kid. There was no particular reason. My boyfriends, some people may say -“This is my acquaintance.” It happens to be I have always used this -word, no particular reason. Maybe I would probably say it was a habit -more than anything else. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you this: You stated to us unequivocally -you are not a homosexual. - -Mr. SENATOR. You can be assured, you can be assured. I will say that -Georgie still loves women yet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not necessarily inconsistent with being a -homosexual, but I am not suggesting—— - -Mr. SENATOR. But you heard my words, though, my words they are direct -believe me. And I don’t intend changing it. I may not be that strong, -but I don’t intend changing them. Of course, age is a benefactor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about your affection for women? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; certainly. I still like the beauty of the female -sex. Let me read the rest of this. Let me quote you something that Mr. -Alexander had me at the first bond hearing—I can’t help but think of it -when I read this “boyfriend” and how many times that has been quoted. -It has never been quoted me direct, but I have heard it hearsay, you -know, things like that. At the bond hearing, the first bond hearing, -Mr. Alexander said to me: - -“You and Jack Ruby lived together?” And I said, “Yes.” - -He says, “How many bedrooms in the apartment you live in?” - -I said, “Two.” - -He says, “What are the other rooms?” - -I says, “There is a bathroom, kitchen, and a living room.” - -Then he come out with this live one, which I grasped right away. This -is what I call it. - -“Where do you keep the TV?” - -I didn’t particularly like it, but I was on the witness stand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say? - -Mr. SENATOR. I said, “In the living room,” where it is. But I caught -the drift right away. And I wasn’t happy about that because I couldn’t -open my mouth because I was on the witness stand. - -Page 298. You got the drift of that, didn’t you? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; very clear. - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t quote the rest of it because he put it down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, I am interested. - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, what this means is Jack Ruby and I are in -bed together, probably holding hands, or whatever it might be, watching -TV. Is that easy? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that logical? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. And I was pretty disturbed over this. How does he base -something like this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it he didn’t follow it up in any way? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not the second time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t attempt to discredit your statement that it was -kept in the living room? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. And when he didn’t bring that up at all on the witness -stand—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the trial? - -Mr. SENATOR. At the trial. There is something here; I don’t know what -it means; the difference may be an hour or two, according to what time -I came home that Friday night—he said between 9 and 10. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you think it was? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say between 10 and 11. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you here: What did you do from the time you -heard that the President had been shot on Friday until you came home -at, say 10 o’clock? Did you work the rest of that day? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was a black day; man, that was a sad day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at Jack’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was a day I will tell you I don’t think a living soul -in Dallas had any ambition to work. You would have to see that town -that day and the feeling of all the individuals in that town. It was -really a sad, sad day. It was a weeping day. I’ll tell you that is what -it was; it was a weeping day for the city. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Burgundy Room? Where did you go from -Jack’s when you first heard this news? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I went downtown; did a little deskwork again. I am -not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Talk out loud and then we can correct it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure what it was. I don’t remember anymore. -I think I went to the Burgundy Room. I think I just messed around -downtown in the area. No particular place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be a place like the Burgundy Room, a tavern? - -Mr. SENATOR. Probably so; probably so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any people you saw on Friday? - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t recollect. It was a very sad day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think that is a day that is rather vivid to most of us. -I know it is with me. I am just wondering if you can’t think where you -were that day, and who you talked to. - -Mr. SENATOR. In all probability I probably spoke to many people -downtown that day, or various places, wherever I may have been. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What other places are you accustomed to go to besides the -Burgundy Room? - -Mr. SENATOR. The Burgundy Room; there is another place I used to drop -in, which is called the Smuggler, which is uptown. These are both -places that I went to. Of course, the Burgundy Room is No. 1. The other -place I do go just occasionally, I do go to the place occasionally. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say you were hanging around downtown, you were -hanging around someplace where you could have a drink, a bite to eat, -or something of that sort? - -Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you wouldn’t have been in a department store or a -drugstore, someplace like that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I mean I don’t know. A department -store; definitely I haven’t been in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We are talking about someplace where you could get a -drink, watch television, and watch the events on television. Did you -spend all day watching the events on television? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I think I was in the downtown area. I think -I was in the downtown area most of that day, if I am not mistaken. -I don’t remember just where I was. I may have floated from downtown -uptown. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you had quite a bit to drink that day? - -Mr. SENATOR. I will probably say I had maybe a fair amount. I mean, to -be drunk or anything of that nature, I don’t think I was drunk that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are pretty well able to hold your liquor, -from what you said before. You feel that you are? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So that I wonder if—— - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I got to be careful when I’m driving -because if you get nabbed by the Dallas cops, you are in trouble, but -good trouble, and I don’t want to get in that condition. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am wondering, from what you are saying here, if it -isn’t a fair impression to draw—— - -Mr. SENATOR. If it isn’t what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If I couldn’t fairly infer that you had been drinking -most of the time after you heard that the President was shot, although -you don’t feel that you had been drinking so much that you weren’t in -control of yourself. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I was in control of myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had been drinking fairly steadily from the time -you heard the President was shot until you went home that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have anything to do with your failure to -recollect what you had done that day? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I was that tight; no. I just don’t remember -where I navigated that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you suggest again—and I keep throwing the same -question back to you—can you think or suggest someone that you saw that -day? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I saw—I keep on bringing up this attorney -all the while, Jim Martin. I don’t know if I saw him, called him, or -went to his office that day or not. I used to meet him before all this -here was going on, you know, for cocktail hour before I went home, -between 5 to 6, and went home, but I don’t know if I met him that day -or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you have dinner that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even think I had dinner that night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attempt to get in touch with Jack Ruby that night? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason why. I just didn’t; that is all. I -didn’t even look for him. There was no special reason. You see, I have -never, if I am out, gotten on the telephone to see if he was home or -what he was going to do or things of that nature. In other words, when -I am out I am free. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wasn’t somebody that you did things with; is that -fair to say? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t do much with him; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And part of the reason was Jack didn’t drink? Wasn’t that -probably part of it? - -Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t like me drinking and Jack don’t like to see me -go into joints. All right. Now the Burgundy Room; I don’t know if you -have ever been there while you were down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t. - -Mr. SENATOR. It is a nice place. It gets fine transient trade and local -people, and it is one of the nicest places, I feel as an open bar that -you can go to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack somehow have the idea that you drink too much? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not exactly drink too much. You know I can drink one beer -and he will say, “You are drunk, aren’t you?” He will pull this on me. -He has pulled it many a time on me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he feel that way about other people? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know about other people. But he -didn’t like me drinking. He said it to me many a time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put up with a guy who criticized your personal -habits as much as Jack appears to have done? - -Mr. SENATOR. In all reality, it didn’t bother me. I didn’t care what he -said. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He sort of treated you like you were his son? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; no. He just didn’t like to have me drink; that -is all. He felt I was wasting—believe it or not, here is a man with a -club who felt I was throwing my money away, and he felt that I couldn’t -afford to be throwing my money away. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sort of a brotherly or fatherly interest in -you, or was this just Jack’s desire to dominate people? - -Mr. SENATOR. Dominate? I don’t know if “dominate” would be the word. -But as a friend he liked me; I will put it that way. He liked me as a -friend. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of anything you had done for him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, you know, I did a lot of things for him, and, of -course, he has done things for me, you know. When I was down and out he -helped me out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You showed him a certain amount of loyalty and confidence. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you see, I don’t argue back with him. I don’t know if -he likes this or not, you know. I don’t want to argue with him. So I -“Yes” him to get the argument over with, because when he hollers at me -he hollers from the rooftops. But when you hear enough of it, it didn’t -bother me. It may have bothered a lot of people, but it didn’t bother -me because with me I knew there was no harm that would be done. But -the shrill of his voice, you know he was around. You could hear it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; let’s go on there on page 298 from where we were. - -Mr. SENATOR. It says, “Ruby and Senator arose on November 24, and -Senator noticed Ruby had brought one of four dogs which he ordinarily -keeps at the Carousel home with him.” He brings this same dog home -every night. And when it says, “Ruby and Senator arose,” it is like we -woke up at the same time. That is not so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This refers to Sunday morning, November 24; is that right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the correct statement of this would be that—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I woke up before he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You woke up before he did, and that Jack always keeps -Sheba—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Always brings Sheba home every night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it customary also for him to take Sheba down to the -club every day? - -Mr. SENATOR. Both forth and back, forth and back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Sheba with him wherever he goes? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the dog is always with him. This was his pet. This -was his favorite of a few dogs that he had. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; I think the record is clear enough on that; that we -don’t have to make any entry on the page. - -Mr. SENATOR. Of course, the other is what we discussed before about the -signs that you have on this page. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing in there about the signs, is there? - -Mr. SENATOR. None. Elmer Moore has the one about the signs. This is -page 299. I forgot to tell you. I went to this restaurant, it says, -to eat. I just had that coffee. The morning when I went down to eat -on Main Street, it says I went down to eat. I only had coffee. “He -estimated as he arrived there at approximately 11:30 and as he walked -in the door he overheard one of the waitresses saying Oswald has been -shot.” This is not so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after you sat down? - -Mr. SENATOR. I had been sitting already. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on page 300 or page 299? - -Mr. SENATOR. 299. Now he got this twisted. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the part that is twisted. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. “Shortly thereafter the waitress told Senator that -Oswald had been shot by a local tavern operator, and a short while -after that he learned the name of this individual to be Jack Ruby. -He said he was dumfounded, and did not know what to do, but after a -short while he went to the telephone and called Jim Martin on Gladiola -Street, Dallas, as an attorney whom he knew.” We went through that. Do -you want to go through that again? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I want to know if you say now, of course, that that -is not what happened. Now, what did you tell the agent? Could you have -told the agent that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; when the waitress said that she heard Oswald had been -shot, I called Jim Martin, but nobody knew who. The daughter answered -the phone and said her daddy was in church, and that he would be home -in a short while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that when you called Jim Martin, -you couldn’t get ahold of him, but you talked to his daughter. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is his daughter? - -Mr. SENATOR. He had three of them, and I don’t remember which one -answered. Of course, one is too young. I don’t know which one he went -to church with. One is 15 or 16 and the other is, I think, 10 or 11. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there one even younger than 10 or 11? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, an infant. Maybe she is 2 or 3 years old; something -like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell the daughter who you were; who was calling? -Did you leave word? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure if I told her to tell her daddy that George -called. I am not sure if I did or not. I don’t want to say I did and -I don’t want to say I didn’t, because I don’t remember. No; I didn’t -leave right after that. I still had a cup of coffee yet. It says I left -right after this call. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is incorrect; is that what you are saying? - -Mr. SENATOR. “He said this attorney was not at home, so he got into his -car and drove to the attorney’s house to wait for his return.” This -I did not do. What I did was I still sat there and I had two cups of -coffee, when this girl hollered out again, “the Carousel, Jack Ruby,” -which words were sort of mispronounced the way she said it; this is -when I went. Of course, I sat there for a little bit, not knowing what -the hell to do. This was stunning. I sort of froze right to the seat -when I heard that. Page 300. I read too slow, don’t I? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. Go ahead. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me run this through. I don’t catch the last part of -this: “He never heard Ruby say Oswald had ever visited either one of -the clubs in which Ruby was interested.” Does that mean, in other -words, the clubs that Jack owned? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. - -Mr. SENATOR. All right; OK. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you a few questions. You have had a chance to -read that all over. Now on page 298 the FBI reports you in this fashion: - -“Senator has no accurate idea as to where Ruby had been all day.” That -refers to Friday. - -Mr. SENATOR. November 24. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. November 22. - -Mr. SENATOR. Twenty-second; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. “But does know that, because of the shooting of the -President, Ruby has had many businessmen in Dallas close his business. -Senator has some recollection Ruby said he had been at his sister’s -home for awhile.” Is it fair then to draw the conclusion from that -statement that, when you talked with the FBI on November 24, you did -know what Ruby had done on Friday night, on Friday other than that he -had closed his business, and that he had been at his sister’s? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He went to the police station with sandwiches, I -heard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, you told the FBI on November 24, when this -presumably was as fresh in your mind as it is ever going to be, that -you had no accurate idea where Ruby had been all day, and the only -things that you could remember were that he closed his business and he -had some recollection that he had been at his sister’s home for awhile. -You didn’t mention, I take it, to the FBI on the 24th—— - -Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I probably forgot to mention it now, -come to think of it, the synagogue and things like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention the synagogue. You didn’t mention that -he had been to the police station. You didn’t mention—— - -Mr. SENATOR. You must understand, like I told you before, you know, -when a man is in a shaken-up condition, it is true that you might say -that this should be fresh in my mind, but when a man is in a shaken -condition and nervous—and you can’t help but be nervous—so I may have -slipped up on some of the things that I probably couldn’t think of -momentarily when he was questioning me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the fact is that on the 24th you -really didn’t know, that it was sometime after the 24th that you -learned that Jack had been to the police station with sandwiches, and -that he had been to the synagogue, that Jack didn’t even tell you this -on Friday or Saturday? - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t see him Friday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday morning, that he didn’t tell you Saturday morning -that he had been to those places? Is it possible that Jack never told -you that? - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no; he did tell me that. How else would I know? How -else would I have known that? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You might have learned it since November 24, by talking -with somebody or reading something. - -Mr. SENATOR. Why would I want—let me ask you this—why would I want to -leave out that he went to the police station—if I were able to think of -it—or bringing sandwiches? Why would I want to leave out that he went -to the synagogue? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is why I am suggesting that you didn’t know that on -the 24th, that it wasn’t until later. - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know it on the 24th. I didn’t know it. I didn’t -see him. I didn’t know it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, on November 24, up until the time you were -interviewed by the FBI on November 24, you did not know that Jack had -been to the police station, and you did not know that he had been to -the synagogue. - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You learned about that sometime after the 24th. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I learned it before that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. See; what I am suggesting is that if you did learn -it before the 24th, this would have been something you would have -remembered. - -Mr. SENATOR. You asked what makes something slip a man’s mind. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wouldn’t you be more likely to remember he had been to the -police station than he had been to visit his sister? If a man had told -you on Saturday morning right after the President had been shot that -he had been to the police station, and had said anything about what he -had done there, wouldn’t that have been something that you would have -remembered as being important? You would have been curious, wouldn’t -you? You would have asked the man “What did you see down at the police -station? Who did you talk to down there?” After all, that was right -down there where Oswald was, and where the investigation was going on. - -Mr. SENATOR. It is befuddling. I still think it was Saturday. There is -an incident I just happened to think of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. SENATOR. After he had woken me up on Saturday morning, there was a -bunch of sandwiches still wrapped that hadn’t been distributed, and—I -don’t know—I had no idea how many he bought or how many he had made, -but he still come home with maybe 6, 8, 10, or 12 of those sandwiches. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of sandwiches were they? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think they were corn beef and pastrami on rye, if I -remember right, on rye bread. This I do remember, and they were still -on the kitchen table, and as a matter of fact they were in two bags, if -I remember right. They were in two bags. I think he had some cake too, -that he bought in the delicatessen. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw that Saturday morning when you got up? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that recall anything further to your mind? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; now this here I never even told anybody. I never even -told this to anybody. This is the first time that I have ever exposed -this. It don’t matter who is questioning me, this is the first time. -Now why didn’t I think of this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is not so extraordinary. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; you may say it is trivial or it may be trivial to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the kind of a thing that you might forget and that -is also the kind of thing that as you look back from this period of -time—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I have been trying to think as much as I could. Now I -gather I can remember this part, this one here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with Jack about those -sandwiches? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had been to the police station and he had passed -out a lot to various policemen or plainclothesmen. I don’t know who. I -don’t know who he passed them out to. - -But it seems like I gather that he must have had an awful lot of these -made, or whatever it might have been. He must have had a slew of them -made. Now why I did it I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this possible, that all you would have learned from -him, you asked him “Where did you get these sandwiches” and he said “I -got them for the men at the police station but they didn’t eat them”? -Could that have been the conversation? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he passed out some; I know. He said he had passed out -some sandwiches. As a matter of fact he even took some to his sister. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sandwiches to his sister? When did he take -the sandwiches to his sister? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was sometime Friday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you learn that? - -Mr. SENATOR. From Jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t see his sister. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again that if Jack had told you that he actually -got into the police station and distributed those sandwiches to -policemen in the police station, it would have occurred to you to ask, -well, you know, what was going on in the investigation. - -Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t ask him what was going on. As a matter of fact, -I don’t even know what part of the police station he was in, or any -locale of the police station he was in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about seeing anybody? - -Mr. SENATOR. He mentioned that he had gone to the police station and -gave out sandwiches. That is all I knew about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention seeing anybody else except policemen at the -police station? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a glance at Oswald in one of the rooms, or -something like that, as he was going by or something of that nature. I -am not sure of this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t know whether you knew that on the 24th or -not, do you, or whether this is something you read later on? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember. I can’t say “Yes” -or say “No,” or what rooms he was in. I don’t know just where he went -at the police station. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatever happened to all those sandwiches? Did you eat -them up? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, if I didn’t eat but one or two I would be a fool, -wouldn’t I? I mean look, I like corn beef and pastrami. I mean the -windup was when he got around to home, he didn’t have that many left -already. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see in those paper bags? You said you saw -8 or 10 in the paper bags. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I can’t eat 8 or 10 sandwiches. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s take a break. - -(Short recess taken.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now state for the record that we had a short break -here for refreshments, and Mr. Senator has had an opportunity to read a -document which is known as Exhibit 5402, which I had previously marked, -and in reviewing the documents which I have marked today, I find that -I have dated them April 23, 1964, when a look at the calendar tells me -that the correct date is April 22, 1964, and I have inked over the date -so that it now reads April 22, 1964, on Exhibits 5400, 5401, 5402, and -I have marked a further “Exhibit 5403,” which exhibit is a copy of an -FBI report prepared by Mr. Rawlings and Mr. Glonek, of an interview -that they had with Mr. Senator on December 19, 1963. - -Now Mr. Senator, you have had an opportunity in this break period to -read over Exhibit 5402, which is a copy of a report prepared by Secret -Service Agent Elmer W. Moore which he had with you on December 3, 1963. -Have you had an opportunity to read that exhibit through? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you as we did with the previous exhibit to indicate -if there are any changes or corrections or clarifications that you -would want to make in Mr. Moore’s report, and I specifically point -out again that what I am directing my attention to here is whether -Mr. Moore’s report is an accurate report of what you told him on that -day. I might also reiterate as we have at the beginning of every -session which has been resumed here that, of course, we are taking this -under the same procedures and formalities that we have had since the -beginning here, and that the oath which you took on Tuesday morning is -still in effect. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now on this here, of course, this goes back many, many -years. This is just the location that is a location and not a name of a -person. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Point out what it is. - -Mr. SENATOR. “About 1934 he returned to Gloversville and left there -with neighbors, the Sebring family to go to Florida.” Now, Sebring, it -is a city, not people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t leave with the Sebring family? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You left to go to Sebring, Fla.? - -Mr. SENATOR. Went to Sebring, Fla. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you go to Sebring, Fla. with? - -Mr. SENATOR. The name was Eggens. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They were neighbors from Gloversville? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they were neighbors from Gloversville. They lived for -many, many years in Lake Placid, N.Y., and I went with them and, of -course, today their whereabouts—I know the mother is deceased—and where -they are I don’t know. I haven’t seen them in a zillion years. - -“On August 21, 1941, he entered the Army Air Force and was assigned -serial number 12006042.” I probably should comment is off there. It -doesn’t really make any difference. “He served mainly as an aerial -armorer with the Fifth Bomber Command 33d Group in Australia and -Pacific Theater during World War Second.” - -There is a correction on that. I was with the 22d Bomber Group 33d Bomb -Squadron. That is the only correction on that, if you want that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that is fine because we are happy to have that. In -fact why don’t you take your pen and make that correction right on the -piece of paper? - -Mr. SENATOR. How can I get it on there, they are so close together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Cross out something and write it in. - -Mr. SENATOR. To go through this whole thing I would have to say I was -with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command. Well, the Fifth Bomber -Command is there. Do you want Fifth Air Force? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that is inaccurate in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is I was with the 22d Bomb Group, 33d Bomb -Squadron. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you want to do is write out in the margin. - -Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to cross this out? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just change the 33d Group to 33d Squadron. -Change group to squadron, and then add what the bomber group was. - -Mr. SENATOR. 22d Bomber Group. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with a little caret or asterisk being there to -indicate where you want it to go. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how important it is, if you want the Fifth -Air Force before or we can eliminate it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In order to identify that group that you were in—— - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it relates this way. You start off Fifth -Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, if you want this whole thing, 22d Bomb -Group when I was with the 33d Bomb Squadron if you want that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Write Fifth Air Force in. - -Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know where to put it. Do you want me to put it on -top here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure. - -Mr. SENATOR. Fifth Air Force comes first. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So we have edited this to read “He served mainly as an -aerial armorer with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, 22d Bomb -Group, 33d Squadron in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War -II.” Why don’t you initial and date the changes? - -Mr. SENATOR. Is one sufficient for the whole? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a set of initials and date by each one and remember it -is April 22. - -Mr. SENATOR. I think there is one I put on the 23d come to think of it -somewheres on something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We will try to find that. I think you did make that -change. You didn’t date the previous change made on Exhibit 5401. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am writing 4-23 here. It is 4-22. Can I put in here and -say “He was honorably discharged” or just “discharged satisfactory.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if you want to clarify it to say honorably -discharged. - -Mr. SENATOR. There is a difference. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; there is and I can understand why you would want that -in there. Now you have made some other changes on here I notice. You -have added on page 2 of Agent Moore’s report in the first sentence the -word “Honorably” so that that sentence reads “He was honorably.” - -Mr. SENATOR. I should say honorably discharged. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Honorably discharged as a staff sergeant on September -9, 1945. In the first full paragraph on this page, the last sentence -you have changed the spelling of the name Wexler from W-e-x-l-e-r to -W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r, and that is the name of the man to whom your former -wife is now married. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am the one who gave him that other spelling because I -didn’t spell it right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the second paragraph on that same page, the last -sentence, you have added the words “Texas Postcards and Novelty, -Dallas, Texas” before the words “Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York” -so that that sentence reads: “He is presently a salesman of colored -postcards for Texas Postcard and Novelty, Dallas, Texas, Dexter Press, -West Nyack, New York.” Now let me ask you this. Are the Texas Postcard -and Novelty Company and Dexter Press—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, they make the cards, they print the cards. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you really do is you sell these cards for Dexter -Postcard? - -Mr. SENATOR. No: I don’t sell them for Dexter. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You sell them for Texas Postcard and Novelty? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From Dexter Press? - -Mr. SENATOR. Dexter are the ones who make prints. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me add the word “from.” I have added the word “from.” -I will hand you back Mr. Moore’s report. Why don’t you continue on -through it and read whatever it is that you think should be changed and -then we will make the changes. - -Mr. SENATOR. This “He made business calls and stopped for lunch at a -place called Jacques,” now shall I put in front of lunch—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is understood you didn’t have anything to eat but had -something to drink. A cocktail or something? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think I had two bottles of beer. Do you want that -changed? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you cross out “lunch” and say “two bottles of -beer.” - -Mr. SENATOR. Now maybe I said I had lunch. I don’t even remember. I -ain’t going to question this. You know that I just changed that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You changed lunch to what? What did you write, two bottles -of beer? - -Mr. SENATOR. “Two beers.” Just a misspelling of a street here. Do you -want that corrected? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would. - -Mr. SENATOR. With the same category as the beer place, the name of the -street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, correct the spelling. What is the name? You -have changed the word Carol Street on page 3 from C-a-r-o-l to -C-a-r-r-o-l-l. That is fine. - -Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that initialed? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would please. - -Mr. SENATOR. “He returned to the apartment and went to bed -approximately 10:30 p.m. He does not recall seeing Ruby again that -day.” It is not recall seeing him, I didn’t see him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you change recall to didn’t. - -Mr. SENATOR. Now I stated here for the point of information before -that “Jack told him” which is me “that he had been at his sister Eva’s -place,” said that he had bought food for her.” In other words, when he -bought all this stuff there he bought her some too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, it was your understanding when you talked -with Agent Moore that Jack had bought the sandwiches and so forth -before he went to Eva Grant’s house on Friday night? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now let me ask you this. When I am talking to them, -are they taking this word by word or what? Do you know? I don’t even -know myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It depends. Of course I wasn’t at this interview. - -Mr. SENATOR. I know that. This is why I asked you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They are obviously not taking it down word for word as our -court stenographer is here. - -Mr. SENATOR. I know they do it in longhand which is tough. It is not -easy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He is taking notes which hopefully are going to be -accurate. After all, these men are highly trained people. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They are trained to take notes. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And to do it as accurately as they can. But there are -mistakes that crop up. - -Mr. SENATOR. Who isn’t fallible somewhere or another. I think there is -a misinterpretation of this word that “he had bought food for her.” -Brought food for her. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it make any difference? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not in all reality, I don’t know, because when he bought -all this food, if you asked me how much he bought I don’t know but -apparently, I have been under the impression that he bought quite a -bit of things, because if he took food over to the police station, he -couldn’t go there with six or seven sandwiches I know if he was working -of that nature, to bring food over there. So I assumed there must have -been many, many sandwiches and pastries of some nature that he had -brought over there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am interested, Mr. Senator, in this. That even in this -interview with Mr. Moore on the 3d of December you don’t make any -reference about Jack telling you that he went to the police station. - -Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is why I ask you again if it is not possible—now -this interview was not under the same kind of pressure? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; that is right. You are right on that. All I can say is -maybe it is just a thing that slipped my mind. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is it possible that in fact all you remembered was that -Jack had said that he bought food for Eva, and that he hadn’t mentioned -anything about going to the police station? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; this is the same time when he bought all this stuff, -when he bought these bags. Mind you, when I mentioned about these bags, -this is the first time that I have even thought about this to anybody -that I spoke to, see. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now keep in mind the distinction between what Jack—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Even though this thing slipped my mind all the way through -completely. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but try to focus on this distinction, the difference -between what Jack told you on Friday night or Saturday morning, and -what you later learned some time afterward. I ask you if it isn’t -possible that you learned about Jack’s going to the police station -after you talked with Agent Moore, and that that is the reason that -you didn’t tell this to the police and you didn’t tell it to the FBI -and you didn’t tell it to Agent Moore, because you knew about the -sandwiches when you talked with Moore, and when you talked with the -FBI, and you knew about going to Eva’s, but at that point you didn’t -know of any connection between the sandwiches and the police station. - -Mr. SENATOR. The only way that I can really express this, it could be -a probability and then it couldn’t, in other words, I can’t answer the -question truthfully and be sure. I say I am not sure. What else could I -say on that? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, this is what we are trying to get at. - -Mr. SENATOR. I still ain’t sure if I did or didn’t mind you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Because the thing that I want to explore here is whether—— - -Mr. SENATOR. But I knew about the sandwiches the next day because I saw -them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew about the sandwiches, right? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the thing I am trying to direct your attention at -is whether you knew about Jack’s visit to the police station and I -am suggesting to you that if you had known on the 23d or the 24th -about Jack’s visit to the police station, you would have had some -further conversation with Jack. If Jack had said, or if I had said -to you, “George, I just was down to the police station and I took -some sandwiches down there” on this particular day, why you would -have said to me, “Did you see Oswald? What was going on? What kind of -investigation?” That visit to the police station would have been a more -important thing than the sandwiches. So that if Jack really told you -this on Saturday, the 23d, I am suggesting that there might be some -further conversation that you and he had, because you would ask him -questions about what he saw, out of curiosity, and you don’t seem to -recall any such conversation. - -Mr. SENATOR. It is not fresh in my mind right now. I am inclined to -think that he did, but if I had to say 100 percent I really can’t -answer you now. I just don’t remember now. I was sort of under the -impression that I was told. It is hazy in my mind. I can’t say yes or -no. I am not going to say no and I am not going to say yes that he did -or didn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any clear recollection? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any conversation about his being down at the police -station? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t remember, so in other words this is a thing I -would have to leave in question. Here is a question that I am not even -sure of. “Senator said that Ruby was very hot about this article and -commented that Weissman did not spell his name as a Jew but if he were -a Jew he should be ashamed of himself.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your feeling about that now. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t ever remember telling him that. Now I don’t say -that I did or didn’t, but I don’t know why I had the reason to say that -he didn’t spell his name as a Jew. Wait a minute “that he did not spell -his name as a Jew” I just can’t figure why I would say that because -Bernard Weissman to me sounds Jewish no matter how I look at the name. -This is the part I don’t understand on this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your recollection that Jack was hot under the collar -about this ad? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; oh, yes. This I remember he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You found that ad independently of Jack as I understand it. - -Mr. SENATOR. I found that ad Thursday night when I bought the paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Thursday before the President arrived? - -Mr. SENATOR. Or was it Friday? Thursday or Friday. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Something makes you think it was Thursday night? - -Mr. SENATOR. Maybe, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that that makes you think that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. I may have bought this paper Thursday night -because it come out in the paper the day the President arrived when I -read it. Or did it come out Friday? I don’t remember. Was it Friday? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I don’t know. - -Mr. SENATOR. It was a Friday’s paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the Friday morning news hits the newsstands on -Thursday night, does it not? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now are you in the habit of picking up a morning newspaper -the night before? - -Mr. SENATOR. It all depends the hour. If I am out at that hour and if -the paper is out at that hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did the night before the President -came to Dallas? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know what I did Thursday at all. I don’t know -what I did. Now there is a little twist in the thing right now. After -we saw the paper and the poster, he has just got this twisted around. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Read what he has and then let’s talk about it. - -Mr. SENATOR. “They went to the Southland Hotel Coffee Shop and had -coffee, Ruby drinking grapefruit juice. While there Ruby reread the ad -and made comments about it. They left the coffee shop and went to the -main Dallas post office on Ervay where Ruby rang the night bell.” Then -it continues, but the thing is this is reversed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What you are saying is that you went to the post office -before you had coffee? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. This is reversed. Now does the reversal mean anything? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch that you have to reverse in this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get it straight then as to what actually happened -there. - -Mr. SENATOR. You want to reread it from here? It sounds all right -except the reversal. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You read everything that is wrong, everything that is -reversed and so forth and then we will try to put it in proper order. - -Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can do is read the reversal and leave the -other as it is. In other words, when he is doing this he would have to -say this was first and the other was last. I don’t know how to do it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You read the text that is improper. - -Mr. SENATOR. In other words, take these down in a line, is that what -you mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From the point that it gets out of order. - -Mr. SENATOR. What I just read where it was out of order? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two things out of order, let me understand this, -are that you went to the post office before you went to the Southland -Hotel? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And so the discussion you had at the Southland Hotel about -the Weissman ad occurred after you saw the Earl Warren sign and after -you went to the post office? - -Mr. SENATOR. That is right. Now do you want some change in here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I think that is clear. - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me finish the balance of this. That whole complete -thing is right now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We have corrected it on the record? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When he is quoting about a certain time, if it is an -hour off or a half hour off, is there any difference? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have—— - -Mr. SENATOR. He says about which is all right. He has got a time there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think your recollection now is more accurate. - -Mr. SENATOR. No, no. All I want to know when it says about. In other -words, that means approximately a certain time, in that area, is that -right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. - -Mr. SENATOR. That is all. Let me ask you on something like this. Maybe -I ain’t reading this correct. “He said the fact that Ruby had the dog -Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the -police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What is unclear about that? - -Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like I was telling him that he went to the -police station. This is the way it sounds to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; it sounds to me like you are saying to Agent Moore -that because Jack had Sheba with him down there at the police station, -you draw the conclusion that Jack just went down there on a casual -basis and intended to come back. - -Mr. SENATOR. All I know is that when he left the house he had Sheba -with him. That I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you draw any particular significance about his -having Sheba with him? Does the fact that he had Sheba with him suggest -something to you about Jack planning to kill Oswald and not planning—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how this sounds to me like unless I’m not -reading it. It sounds like I told him that when Jack went to the police -office he had Sheba with him. That is the way it sounds to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; what Agent Moore, I think, is suggesting, at least the -way I read it—— - -Mr. SENATOR. You read it. Start with “He said.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let’s read the sentence before that. - -“Senator said there were several things that may not have come to the -attention of the authorities which would indicate to him that Ruby had -not planned to shoot Oswald. He said the fact that Ruby had the dog -Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the -police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon. -Also, the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car. -Senator said he was convinced that Ruby had emotionally worked himself -up to such a pitch that when he saw Oswald in the basement of the -police station he went out of his head.” - -Now as I read those sentences, what you are saying is that if anybody -were to learn of all of the facts that took place they should pay -particular attention to the fact that Ruby had his dog Sheba in the car -when he went to the police station, because that indicates that Ruby -intended to come back from the police station before he went down there. - -Do you still feel that way? - -Mr. SENATOR. That he intended to come back? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That Ruby, if Ruby had intended—are you saying that if -Ruby had intended to shoot Oswald before he drove down to the police -station, he wouldn’t have taken Sheba along? - -Mr. SENATOR. That isn’t what I said. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not what you said? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. I said I read that like it sounds to me. I must be -reading it wrong but it sounds to me like I said he was going to the -police station with Sheba. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we understand that you are not saying that at all. -What I am asking you is if you mean to say that in your mind Jack Ruby -would not have taken Sheba down to the police station with him if Jack -Ruby ever intended to shoot Oswald. - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you think he might have anyhow? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you saying now as you think about this further, the -fact that he had the dog with him is not an overriding fact in deciding -whether Jack had any plan to shoot Oswald before he went down there? - -Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge I would say that he had definitely no -plans. Now the money part—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you say this, that if Jack Ruby had planned, -let’s assume for the sake of argument that Jack Ruby planned to kill -Oswald before he went down to the police station. Now if Jack had that -plan in his mind, are you saying he never would have taken Sheba along -with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I definitely don’t think he would ever take the dog -with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he have done with the dog? - -Mr. SENATOR. I assume he would have probably, wherever he was going -with the dog, maybe he was going to the club or what it is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that? - -Mr. SENATOR. What? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that? - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I can say is I know how much he likes that dog, -and the dog is always with him, no matter where he goes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why Jack—— - -Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wouldn’t figure that you or somebody else wouldn’t -have picked that dog up later and taken care of it? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or isn’t it possible that Jack just at this point forgot -about the consequences to the dog? - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even answer that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then would you say that the mere fact that Jack had Sheba -with him doesn’t prove one way or another whether he planned to kill -Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he planned nohow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I know you don’t think that, but I want to know what -significance we should put on the fact that he had Sheba with him. As I -understand what you have been saying now, one could draw the conclusion -that simply because he had Sheba with him doesn’t prove conclusively -one way or another that he had a plan or didn’t have a plan. - -Mr. SENATOR. I can’t conceive anyhow that this man had any plans, nohow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you knew that Jack Ruby had taken Sheba to the club and -locked her in the club and left instructions for somebody to take care -of Sheba, would that affect your attitude as to whether Jack planned to -kill Oswald or not? Would you still say—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I would say it would still be of the same nature having -the dog. I don’t think he would do anything like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don’t think he planned to kill Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I just never could visualize it. I -can’t visualize anything like this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You also say in this, Moore also reports in this statement -this language: “Also the fact that he had the cash receipts from the -club in the car.” Now I take it from that language that you are saying -that you also think that Jack would have taken the cash receipts back -to the club if he had planned to kill Oswald? - -Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can say is that I would have to guess -on my own and say I can only surmise that he wouldn’t have had any -cash with him. That is what I would guess. I don’t know. First of all, -he carries money both ways, see. Now Jack has always been under the -impression wherever he goes, daytime or nighttime, that money, I don’t -say all his money but a certain part of money, what ever he puts in, is -safe in the trunk. He feels it is safe in the trunk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s suppose Jack Ruby had done this. Let’s suppose he -had taken his dog Sheba to the Carousel Club, left a note for somebody -as to how to take care of Sheba, and had taken all the money out of the -back of his car and locked it in the safe at the Carousel Club. - -Mr. SENATOR. What safe? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t he have a safe there? - -Mr. SENATOR. He bought a safe but it was never fixed. He bought a safe, -I’ll tell you the kind of a safe he bought. To my knowledge it has -never been put to use. He bought a safe that fits into the ground. Did -you ever see these little round things that fit into the—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Well, this thing never materialized because the structure -was never made for the safe, never made into the ground. Now if he ever -used the safe I don’t even know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack ever put his money—— - -Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me. The reason I say I feel he didn’t, which I -really don’t know, I don’t think he did, because the safe was able to -be carried. It wasn’t that big thing but when you cement it around you -can’t get to it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Was Jack in the habit of putting his -money in the bank? - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Jack’s safe was his car? - -Mr. SENATOR. Not necessarily. He had it in his car, he had it in his -pocket, and he had it around the house. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you stated a while ago that Jack felt that if he had -the money locked in the trunk of the car that was as good as being in -the safe? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did, but I didn’t say all the monies. I said a -certain part of the monies. Now what part of it I don’t know, because I -know he carried some in there. I know he carried some in his pocket. I -know he leaves some at home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he leave any at home on the 24th? - -Mr. SENATOR. If he did I don’t know. I’ll tell you why, the reason I -say that is because he has in the living room that has got one of these -self-locks. Did you ever see these little locks on a door that you can -lock. You know, you can sort of snip it off? It comes off, whatever -kind of lock you call it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. He has one of them. He had one of them in the living room. -See, his apartment that night was confiscated. I don’t know if it was -the local police. I don’t know who got in there. Somebody got in there, -see. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But it certainly wasn’t unusual, was it, for Jack to carry -all of his money on his person and in his car? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; he has done that many times. But I’ll tell you, when -he is putting the money in his car he very seldom ever left it there -for such a lengthy time like that. But this was his safest place as far -as not carrying it all in his pocket. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And he felt that keeping it in the car was safer than -keeping it in the house. - -Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you say this was the longest time that you can -remember Jack carrying a lot or that much money around with him? - -Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I never said that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you mean to say? - -Mr. SENATOR. I never said that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, there have been times when Jack, I take it -there have been periods of 3 days or more when Jack has carried $2,000 -or $3,000? - -Mr. SENATOR. Or more. No; this is an every day occurrence with him. -This is a thing that materialized 7 days a week. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is nothing unusual about Jack Ruby having all -that money in his automobile. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it is always like that. Now if he has any money in -the bank, I mean I can’t quote that because I don’t see that. See, -he carries this money around 7 days a week. Now what he has in the -bank, of course, I have quoted you that once before, I think that was -yesterday, I don’t know what he has got. Only when you ask what bank he -has, when I mentioned the Merchants State Bank, I don’t know if the guy -has got $40 in there or $500, you know what I mean? I don’t know. - -Or whatever he has had in there or how he has had it. See, this is an -unusual man when it comes to this money bit. I don’t know how many -times he asked me, “George, where is my money?” making me feel like I -took it but he always misplaced it and always found it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a large sum of money that he misplaced? - -Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes it could be missing $200 or $300 or $400, I -don’t know. Whatever the stake is, he has about 4, 5 or 6 different -stakes in different pockets. This man don’t remember where the money -is. This may sound crazy but it is true. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack own any real estate? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; what is he going to use for money for the real estate? -A lot of people are under the impression that Jack had a lot of money. -Jack didn’t. Jack was, what would you classify him, as a walking bank? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried all his money on his person regardless of how -much it was. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this man was making who knows, I don’t know how much -money he has got and I can’t break it down and say he is carrying 10, 5 -or whatever. Who knows what he has got or how much it is. But there has -been 2, 3, 4, maybe more. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What, hundred or thousand dollars? - -Mr. SENATOR. Thousands, whatever it is. Of course, as I told you, this -all goes to the rent, the help, the electricity, you know, all the -utilities and things. But he is a walking bank. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this common knowledge that he carried all this money -around? - -Mr. SENATOR. That was common knowledge to me. How many other people -knew it I don’t know but I am certain other people knew it. Look, when -the help all got paid off they were all paid off in cash. When they -wanted to borrow money they were all paid off in cash. Just like here I -can’t quote how much money he had at any time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now let me ask you to read over what I have -marked as Washington, D.C., April 22, 1964, George Senator Deposition, -Exhibit 5403, and I signed that. It is the report of Agents Rawlings -and Glonek. Would you read that over, and tell me, go through that in -the same fashion as we have with the others. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, corrections, or explanations that -you feel ought to be made to Exhibit 5403? - -Mr. SENATOR. Let me go through this fast. I think there aren’t but let -me make sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you before we get into this, was that interview -made at your request? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. Why would I request it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. Some people call the FBI and tell them they -have something more to tell them. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. I have had a pretty good amount of -questioning you know. I, like any other individual of the nature that I -am, I don’t think is too happy about all this. And who would be? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that you raise that, we might get on the record the -fact that I believe you have expressed to me at lunch during the last -2 days that you feel that this is an unfortunate circumstance in your -life. - -Mr. SENATOR. Certainly it is. It ain’t going to do my life any good. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you explain? Would you want to convey some of the -feelings here on the record that you gave to me? - -Mr. SENATOR. I feel I will always be pointed at, if anybody knows my -name of the nature of the conditions that surrounds me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel a certain amount of shame or disgrace? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; let me say there will probably be a disturbance. -They will always point to Jack Ruby’s roommate, Jack Ruby’s roommate, -something of that nature, you know. What does phonetic mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That means that they don’t know whether the spelling is -correct, but without knowing how to correctly spell it that is the way -they would write it, from the sound. Mr. Senator, as you read through -that if you come to anything that you think ought to be modified or -changed, why, point it out, because I assume that the two pages that -you have read so far—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I am reading it pretty fast. I am a little bit on the -punchy side, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you want us to walk out and sort of relieve your mind. - -Mr. SENATOR. No; there is one item in here where it states “He carried -his money in a sack.” This is only partial. It was in his pockets, in -the sack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The trunk of the car? - -Mr. SENATOR. The trunk of the car. No, no; mind you if it is in the -sack it goes in the trunk of the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else in that interview report that you would want -to—— - -Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if this means anything, it is in his -pocket, to you I mean. I don’t know. This says here where he took the -revolver and placed it on the bag on top of the money. This is not -always—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he place on the bag on top of the money? - -Mr. SENATOR. The gun on top of the moneybag. “Placed it in the bag on -top of the money.” To me it is not important. The gun may be next to it -or something like that, who knows where he put it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you a couple of closing questions. One -thing we haven’t talked about here. That was, how many sets of keys did -Jack Ruby have? - -Mr. SENATOR. To the clubs? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have more than one key chain? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think he had two small ones. I think one for the car, -I’m not sure now. He had keys but I don’t know what they all fit you -know. I think he had one for the car and I think one for the place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep all of his car keys on one ring or did he have -them on two different rings? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one billfold or more than one billfold? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen a billfold. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have never seen his billfold? - -Mr. SENATOR. You mean to carry his paper money in billfolds? No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Identification and things like that. Did he have a wallet? - -Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he ever had a wallet. I don’t recall seeing -any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see his driver’s license? - -Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever see his driver’s license? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or social security. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When he got undressed at night did he put his -billfold—what did he do with his—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I never seen his billfold. I think he carries them—what he -carried these things in, he had a little thing, you know a little thing -that opened up and you slide it to one side or the other, sort of like -what, a little money fold. - -Mr. HUBERT. Sort of like an accordian? - -Mr. SENATOR. No; it didn’t even open up like that. In other words it -opened up like a covered book or one of these little things. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have identification in that? - -Mr. SENATOR. I never seen into it. It could be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the type of thing you could put identification in? - -Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he probably could have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize it if you saw it? - -Mr. SENATOR. The thing? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you describe. - -Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure. I might. I couldn’t say positive. As a -matter of fact even the coloration, I wouldn’t know if it was green or -black. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any habit of leaving car keys in his -automobile that you know of? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think only at the garage. See, the garage is right -downstairs from the club next door, which they watch his car constantly -because he has rented this place on a monthly basis which he has had -for I don’t know how long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would he leave the keys then, in the ignition? - -Mr. SENATOR. I think the keys were left in the ignition. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you ever had occasion to look in the -glove compartment of Jack’s car? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have looked at it but it is such a jingle-jangle there -that it didn’t mean anything as far as opening it up. There was so much -gook in there, do you know what I mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you ever have any occasion to look in the trunk -of his car? - -Mr. SENATOR. I have seen the trunk open; yes, and that is another slop -house, with a bunch of garbage in there. I told him a thousand times -“How can you open your trunk and not clean it up? How can you keep that -garbage in there.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things would he keep in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. There would be papers. In other words, things weren’t -placed. You take a tire, you think the tire is in the right place? It -could be any place in that thing there, and all the other garbage that -he had in there, and papers, whatever it is. He kept his car like he -kept his apartment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any knowledge, or do you—— - -Mr. SENATOR. I have never gone through his trunk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As to what he had in there? - -Mr. SENATOR. In the trunk? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. No. To me it looked like a bunch of garbage he had in -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to drive his automobile? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but very seldom because he didn’t want me to handle -it and I’ll tell you why. No insurance. That is why he didn’t want me -to drive his car. Very seldom was I ever allowed to drive that car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the occasions when you drove his automobile, from where -did you get the automobile keys? - -Mr. SENATOR. From him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Off of his person? - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes; from the house, yes, when he was home. And sometimes -I would drive for him when he is tired, like he feels he is going -to fall asleep, and I have done this you know from the club to the -apartment where he feels he maybe fall asleep at the wheel. This is -one of the things where he wouldn’t let me drive because he had no -insurance, and I wasn’t anxious to drive the car on account of that -either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have had lunch together. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And we have had breaks here and on these occasions we have -talked and you have talked with Mr. Hubert also on these occasions. Is -there anything that we talked with you about in these times when we -haven’t had a court reporter present that we haven’t covered here in -our deposition? - -Mr. SENATOR. It would be hard for me to think what you have left out, -you know. I have never had a questioning like this in my life before. -When I originally came down here I thought I would only be here—I -thought the questioning would probably be similar to being questioned -by the FBI or the Secret Service. First of all how was I to know? What -was I to expect, see? I just couldn’t believe that I would be here 2 -days. I couldn’t think how it was possible where you could ask me so -many questions, both of you. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case you don’t recall anything dealing with the -case, an aspect of it that was the subject of a conversation which has -not been discussed on the record? - -Mr. SENATOR. Offhand, I can’t. Offhand, I just can’t think of any -because I think you all know more than I know. If you can remember the -Times Square Cafeteria you know more than I know. You are not going to -put that too, are you? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then ask this one final question. - -Mr. SENATOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If anything should come to your attention in the future, -which pertains to the Ruby case that could be of assistance to us, will -you contact somebody in the Government and let them know so that we can -have a complete record here. He is nodding his head yes. - -Mr. SENATOR. Because he can’t write the nod down there? - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed for coming. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to say to him that it has been a pleasure to talk -with you; we think your cooperation has been most helpful. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF NANCY PERRIN RICH - -The testimony of Nancy Perrin Rich was taken at 11 a.m., on June 2, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. -Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s -Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich. - -Mrs. Rich, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Under the provisions of the President’s Executive Order No. 11130, -dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress 137, and the -rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance -with that Executive order and that resolution, I have been authorized -to take a sworn deposition from you. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the -assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mrs. Rich, the nature of the inquiry today -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, any -participation in that death, or the death of President Kennedy by -Jack Ruby, certain particular activities of Jack Ruby which you have -heretofore told the FBI, and other pertinent facts you may know about -the general inquiry. - -Now, Mrs. Rich, I think you appear today here by virtue of a letter -written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of -the President’s Commission, is that right? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that—when did you receive that letter? - -Mrs. RICH. I actually received in my hands the letter yesterday, -Monday, the 1st. I received notification of it via a telephone call -from Mr. Fahety of the FBI Bureau, Boston, notifying me of it. - -It was sent—and at this time I would like to state—and opened by -Mr. Rod Kennett, of Executive Limited, 100 Boylston Street, Boston, -and there was no possible way that letter could have been opened -erroneously. It could not have even by any stretch of the imagination -been misconstrued as being office literature. It was personally -addressed to me, with the President’s Commission on it. - -I want that in the record. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is. - -Mrs. RICH. I also want it in the record I came here of my own free will. - -Also that I don’t want it known and that I would like Kennett cautioned -to be quiet about this. I want someone to caution the Kennetts to -keep quiet about this. Rod opened the letter, and he has been telling -everybody in Boston about it. I don’t particularly want it known. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am not in a position to pass upon your request. But -I am quite certain that the Commission will take it into account. - -Mrs. RICH. I would appreciate it, because of some extracurricular work -that I do—it is not feasible for anyone to know that I go before any -kind of commission, for anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, let me get back to this. Under the rules adopted -by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3 day written notice prior -to the taking of this deposition. But the rules also provide that a -witness may waive the 3-day written notice if he so desires. And I ask -you now if you wish to waive the 3-day notice. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I will waive it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand, please, so I may administer the oath? -Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are -about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth? - -Mrs. RICH. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name? - -Mrs. RICH. Nancy Elaine Perrin Rich. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you recently married. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your husband’s name? - -Mrs. RICH. Francis L. Rich. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? - -Mrs. RICH. No. 16 River Road, Hanover, Mass. - -Mr. HUBERT. When were you married? - -Mrs. RICH. April 11, 1964. - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that time, I think you had been married to a man -by the name of Perrin. - -Mrs. RICH. Robert L. Perrin. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he died? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? - -Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mrs. RICH. New Orleans. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had been married prior to that time? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I had. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the husband you were married to prior -to the time you married Mr. Perrin? - -Mrs. RICH. Husbands, in plural. Louis—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean there are more than one? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Give us the names. - -Mrs. RICH. Louis Edward Musachio. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before you pass away from him to the other husband, would -you tell us how your marriage was dissolved? - -Mrs. RICH. By divorce. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he your first husband? - -Mrs. RICH. He was my second. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your second husband. And is he still alive? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I gather. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lives? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. The last known address was Lackland Air Force -Base. I believe he is retired out of the service since then. - -Mr. HUBERT. What business was he in? - -Mrs. RICH. Air Force, a sergeant. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you married to him? - -Mrs. RICH. Married, I couldn’t exactly say. I guess a year. I actually -lived with him about 9 months. Eight of those were spent on various—he -spent in various hospitals, including Walter Reed here, for operations, -and in the psychiatric locked ward. - -Mr. HUBERT. When were you divorced from him? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. 1961, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mrs. RICH. In the county of Adams, city of Brighton, Colo. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you married to him? - -Mrs. RICH. I was married at L. G. Hanscomb Air Force Base, Bedford, -Mass. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about your first husband? - -Mrs. RICH. My first husband was Charles G. Wilson. He was—— - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry him, and where? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, I married him in Berwick, Maine, in 1953. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved? - -Mrs. RICH. In divorce. - -Mr. HUBERT. When and where? - -Mrs. RICH. 1955, in Biddeford, Maine. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Ma’am? - -Mrs. RICH. I am 27. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what is your present occupation? - -Mrs. RICH. Housewife. - -Mr. HUBERT. You do not work for Executives Unlimited? - -Mrs. RICH. Not any more. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did work for them? - -Mrs. RICH. I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for them? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, about 3 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you cease working for them? - -Mrs. RICH. Upon my marriage. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which is April 11? - -Mrs. RICH. April 11. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of business was that? - -Mrs. RICH. An employment agency. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located? - -Mrs. RICH. 100 Boylston Street, Boston, Mass., Suite 309. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any children? - -Mrs. RICH. I have four. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state their ages and tell us by which husband -they were born? - -Mrs. RICH. I will start with my youngest. Diedre Pilar Perrin, age 4. - -Mr. HUBERT. And she is the daughter of—— - -Mrs. RICH. Robert L. Perrin. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mrs. RICH. Felicia Helen Musachio, whereabouts unknown, by Louis Edward -Musachio. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old is she? - -Mrs. RICH. She would be 5. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say whereabouts unknown, you mean you do not -know the whereabouts of the child or of her father? - -Mrs. RICH. Both. She was, to quote the FBI, not kidnapped, childnapped. -Although I hold legal custody of her, I cannot find her. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you go on to the others? - -Mrs. RICH. Brian Russell Wilson, age 7, and Valerie Dawn Wilson, age -10, both by Charles G. Wilson. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do these children live? - -Mrs. RICH. The two Wilsons reside in Biddeford, Maine, with my parents. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your father and mother? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. The whereabouts of Felicia is unknown. And -Deidre Perrin resides with me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your present husband’s occupation? - -Mrs. RICH. He is the owner of North Quincy Taxi Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is located—— - -Mrs. RICH. In Quincy, Mass. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long has he been so occupied? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, 20 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the occupation of Robert Perrin? - -Mrs. RICH. Many things, from a master mechanic, on heavy equipment, -cats, et cetera, to a master foundry worker, patternmaker, moulder, to -running a foundry. - -Mr. HUBERT. And other things? - -Mrs. RICH. A writer, contracted by the old Street and Smith Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. A writer? - -Mrs. RICH. He is an author, short stories. Anything beyond that, I -couldn’t tell you, because I don’t know how much is true of what he -told me of his past. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you of his past? - -Mrs. RICH. May I ask a question? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; if you wish. - -Mrs. RICH. All of this is confidential? - -Mr. HUBERT. I cannot give you the assurance that it is. - -Mrs. RICH. Meaning this would not be publicized for the entire world, -so to speak. The average person outside of who it directly would be -reported to. - -Mr. HUBERT. I cannot give you the assurance that you ask for on that -point. If you would prefer not to answer the question, in the light of -your feelings about it, and the statement I have just made to you, then -we can pass on to another point. - -Mrs. RICH. Let me ask you this. Is it pertinent and important that you -know? - -Mrs. HUBERT. Well, yes. - -Mrs. RICH. Very well. Well, he claimed to—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you understand, I am not giving you any assurance -that there will not be available to the public a transcript of this -testimony. - -Mrs. RICH. I understand this. I thoroughly understand this. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, he claimed to have worked for Jack Dragna, presently -residing at San Quentin. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say he is in the penitentiary? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know for what offense? - -Mrs. RICH. Income tax evasion. I suppose. I don’t know for sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mrs. RICH. Let me state at this time that half of what I am about -to say—I am sorry—all of what I am about to say is hearsay. Half, I -believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. We understand that. You are telling us what he told you he -had done in the past, but that you don’t know for sure whether it is -true. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. But I want that in the record. That he did -everything from handle Dragna’s call girls to be a heavy, so to speak. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by a heavy? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, bodyguard. - -Mr. HUBERT. Bodyguard for whom? - -Mrs. RICH. Jack Dragna, and various subsequent members, shall we say, -of the organization that used to come into California. - -Mr. HUBERT. What organization was that? - -Mrs. RICH. Call it by what you will—syndicate, Mafia. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the people involved? - -Mrs. RICH. I could not tell you. I do know that he mentioned that he -personally knew Mickey Cohen and Virginia Hill. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know any other names? - -Mrs. RICH. Jimmy Gilreath. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would G-i-l-r-e-a-t-h be about right? - -Mrs. RICH. I would assume so. - -Mr. HUBERT. So what you are telling us is that your former husband, now -deceased, Robert Perrin, had told you that among other things he acted -as bodyguard for certain members of a syndicate, as you call it, and -you have named, I think, four people who belonged to the syndicate. - -Mrs. RICH. Supposedly, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was the syndicate about, from what you learned -from your husband? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, everything from prostitution to illegal gambling to -narcotics. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, all of this you know by hearsay alone? - -Mrs. RICH. By hearsay alone. - -Mr. HUBERT. I ask you that question because a moment ago you said that -half of what you said was hearsay. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that the other half was not. - -Mrs. RICH. I do know this, that he claimed that he ran guns—this was -years ago, when Franco was coming into power. I do know this to be a -fact, because he spent time in jail there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did he spend time in jail? - -Mrs. RICH. In Spain. I do know he fought for both sides, as a -professional soldier. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say you know that, I take it that you mean that he -told you so. - -Mrs. RICH. No; I do not mean that, sir. I mean I have seen written -proof of this statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Such as what? - -Mrs. RICH. Such as a prison record. Now, let me qualify that. I have -seen said statement on record, call it what you may. Now, how authentic -it was, I cannot swear to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean he showed you a prison record? - -Mrs. RICH. I found it. From stuff in Spain—both Madrid, and a place -called Consuela. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a prison record was it? - -Mrs. RICH. It wasn’t as you would think of a prison record. It was -merely a piece of paper in Spanish with a list of articles on it that -was on his person at the time he was arrested. Another one was of a -release signed by a Teniente Enriquez, which would be a lieutenant -here, at the Madrid Secreto Servicio. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you better spell all that out, because you are -using a foreign language, and I am not sure that the reporter can get -it except by the sound. - -Mrs. RICH. All right. To clarify this, it was written in Spanish. -I will quote it in English. “An article list, signed by Lieutenant -Enriquez.” - -Mr. HUBERT. That is his last name? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; a release signed by someone in the Secret Service, -which is comparable to our detective system on a city police force. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was a lease of what? - -Mrs. RICH. A release. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him about these documents? - -Mrs. RICH. He seemed quite proud of the fact. - -Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that that you did talk to him about it? - -Mrs. RICH. I did. Quite frankly, I asked him what in the heck it was -all about. At that time, he claimed, he said, “Well, you won’t believe -me. I wasn’t making it up.” He claimed he ran guns and used to pilot a -small boat. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ran guns where? - -Mrs. RICH. Into Spain, for Franco. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that document? Did it have any -date on it? - -Mrs. RICH. I would say it was in the late thirties, I wouldn’t be sure, -late thirties or early forties. It was either just prior to him going -into the United States Army or after he was released. Now, I cannot be -sure on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think that it could not have been earlier than, say, -1935? - -Mrs. RICH. No, it could not have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why are you sure of that? - -Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason he was born in 1920. It couldn’t have -been much prior to 1935. It was either late thirties or early forties. -Again, I would like to, for the record, state that my husband was a -writer. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Perrin now? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. And had a vivid imagination, as most writers do. -Whether or not these were authentic documents, I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he die a natural death? - -Mrs. RICH. Suicide. The coroner’s report was arsenic. I also would -like to state for the record at this time after my husband’s death the -Veterans’ Administration Hospital, I believe it is the one in Denver, -that finally came up with the report, came up with the report that my -husband was discharged from the service for hysteria, and had a history -of mental disturbance. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with him at the time he died? - -Mrs. RICH. I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. You state to us now that the coroner’s report in New -Orleans, I suppose—— - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Showed that his death was caused by arsenic voluntarily -consumed, right? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you lived part of the time that you were married to -Perrin in Dallas, did you not? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. Why I am hesitant—I would like to clarify that -statement. I went to Dallas seeking Mr. Perrin. He had left me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living when he left you? - -Mrs. RICH. We were living in Belmont, Mass. - -Mr. HUBERT. What address? - -Mrs. RICH. No. 11 Holden Road. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after he left you did you seek him out in Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. I was in New Hampshire with the state legislature at the -time. I was doing public relations. And I had just obtained a job, a -position for him, and I telephoned to Massachusetts to tell him to come -on down, and there was no answer. And I had a feeling that something -was wrong. So I hightailed it back to Massachusetts, and there was a -note. And the note said that he was going to Dallas. I called and he -wasn’t there. I called halfway over the United States, thinking of -places he told me he had been, and I couldn’t find him. - -Mr. HUBERT. What place did you call in Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. I called the police department and a foundry he had -mentioned in a letter, and had read the name of a gentleman he had -mentioned at this time whose name eludes me—Youngblood—I take it back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. But my husband claimed—and I couldn’t ask him, -because if he was he couldn’t have told me—claimed he was some sort of -a Government agent, which was in all probability true. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you contact Mr. Youngblood? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; he hadn’t seen him. Then I proceeded to call Kansas -City and various other points I thought he might be. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually contact the Dallas Police Department? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any report from them? - -Mrs. RICH. Except that he wasn’t there. Or that they didn’t know he was -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. They did report that fact to you? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did they do so? - -Mrs. RICH. By phone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. - -Mrs. RICH. I then informed him that I would be there, which I did. -Subsequently, Mr. Perrin—and I will never understand—— - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after the events you have just told us about, to -wit, your coming home and finding that he wasn’t there—how long after -those events did you go to Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. Approximately 1 week. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. When was that? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, gosh. That was in, I believe, May. I can’t give you the -exact month. But I believe it was in May. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of what year? - -Mrs. RICH. Of 1961. Or was it 1962? ’62. I am sorry—1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long—did you find Mr. Perrin? - -Mrs. RICH. Again in a way. He wasn’t in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was he? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, afterwards, when he arrived in Dallas, I found out -that he had been in South Bend, Ind., with my secretary. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, when did you meet him in Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. He wrote mother, found out where I was—and came to Dallas, I -believe, it would be around July. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of 1962? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you had been there alone from May of 1962 until July of -1962? - -Mrs. RICH. I am giving approximate dates, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he did arrive, what happened? - -Mrs. RICH. Just like nothing had happened. Everything was fine. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean there was a reconciliation between you? - -Mrs. RICH. I loved my husband very much. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you proceeded to live together as husband -and wife? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much education have you had, Mrs. Rich? - -Mrs. RICH. I have had 3 years of high school. - -Mr. HUBERT. What high school? - -Mrs. RICH. Biddeford High, in Biddeford, Maine. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave there? - -Mrs. RICH. I left when I was 16. That would be in 1954—1953—I am sorry. -And I got married, and I go back, and I drop out because I am going to -have a child. Then after I have the child I go back, and I am doubling -up on my courses and could have graduated. But I was too smart, and -knew everything. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other type of training? - -Mrs. RICH. Depending on what you mean—formal education—meaning book -learning? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes. - -Mrs. RICH. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or other types of training, such as stenography? - -Mrs. RICH. IBM, and police investigation. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the IBM aspect? Did you study that? - -Mrs. RICH. I made a misquotation. It would be Remington Rand, actually. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you study? - -Mrs. RICH. Not with Remington Rand as a company. For Craftsman Life and -Health Insurance Co. of Boston. - -Mr. HUBERT. You worked there? - -Mrs. RICH. I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. And studied the operation of Remington Rand machines there? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us the name of some of the people you worked -with there? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, you are going back too far, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was that place located? - -Mrs. RICH. On Boylston Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the manager? - -Mrs. RICH. It may sound odd—whether this name has stuck in my mind or -not—but it seems to me his name is Griffin, too. I may be wrong. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 6 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was after you married? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, no. No—in fact, I was working there when I met Musachio. -That was back in 1958. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. You had divorced your first husband? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned something else besides IBM. - -Mrs. RICH. Police investigation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, where did you learn that? - -Mrs. RICH. From various police organizations, district attorney’s -offices. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; some with the Boston Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with? - -Mrs. RICH. We called him Papa McGill. Sergeant McGill, and John -Dinatele, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, I was a young kid, and didn’t have any brains. I blew -a case, and that was it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you paid? - -Mrs. RICH. At that time; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your answer suggests that at a later time you were paid. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. With the same department? - -Mrs. RICH. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, with what police department? - -Mrs. RICH. With the district attorney’s office of Sacramento. - -Mr. HUBERT. California? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, this wasn’t a question of working. I worked as needed, -or as a case came up. I worked for Mr. Oscar Kistle, Chief Deputy -District Attorney, who as of this January is now a judge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with anybody else there? - -Mrs. RICH. I worked with the Hayward Police Department, in California. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with there? - -Mrs. RICH. Lieutenant—I can’t remember his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with that police department? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, I left. That is why I discontinued my association with -them. Again, as needed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, altogether, how long were you there? - -Mrs. RICH. Altogether, if you want to put it running day by day, -probably 3 weeks. If you want to say—actually I was associated with -them probably 3 or 4 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what I meant. - -Mrs. RICH. But not worked steadily. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand. - -Mrs. RICH. And the Oakland Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oakland, Calif.? - -Mrs. RICH. California. - -Mr. HUBERT. And who did you work with there? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. I worked on grand theft. Lieutenant—I can’t -remember—whoever the lieutenant is in charge of grand theft detail. Lt. -Parker. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Oakland with that association? - -Mrs. RICH. Again, about the same length of time as Hayward. I was -working with both of them at the same time, and also Sacramento. In -that type of work, you cannot get by in just one. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think you mentioned Sacramento yet. - -Mrs. RICH. The district attorney’s office, yes, I have. At this time, -if necessary, I can introduce a letter into evidence verifying part of -this testimony. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you wish to do so? - -Mrs. RICH. I believe I would. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have the letter? - -Mrs. RICH. I do. Note for the record I hand a letter to Mr. Hubert, -signed by Chief Deputy Kistle. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me this document. Do you wish—I assume you -wish to keep the original. - -Mrs. RICH. That is the only one I have, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you mind if we had a copy made of it? - -Mrs. RICH. I would not. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then we can hand you back the original. - -Mrs. RICH. That will be fine. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when did you first meet Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. RICH. When I first reached Dallas, I, of course, went directly to -the police station. Ironically enough, the first person I met was Mr. -Tippit. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name? Are you referring to the Tippit who -was shot on November 22d? - -Mrs. RICH. I would say so. I believe it is the only Tippit on the -police force. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you met Mr. Tippit. And what happened then? - -Mrs. RICH. I walked in and plunked $4 on the desk and said, “Here I -am.” He said—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Well—— - -Mrs. RICH. This was a joke. When I called him from Massachusetts, I -told him when I hit there I would have 4 bucks in my pocket. It was -rather a kind of a joke, actually. I said, “Here I am.” - -He said, “Oh, no; I told you not to do it.” - -I had talked to him previously on the phone. So that was all right. -So he called in one of the patrolmen. And they get the Black Maria, -go down to the bus depot and get my bags. And I had called Associated -Press. I have many friends around the press world. Being in public -relations, I would. And this Brice someone or other said, “You can go -and stay with my wife for a couple of days until you get settled.” - -Three o’clock in the morning we start punching doorbells, with the -suitcases in a Black Maria, trying to find Ann, and I couldn’t remember -the last name. So the next day they send up to pick me up and help me -find a place and job. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say “they”—— - -Mrs. RICH. Meaning the police department of Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. What particular individuals? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall exactly who sent them up. I cannot remember -the guy’s name. Really. I don’t believe he is any longer with them, I -understand. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, some person from the police department came to -get you the next day? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. Subsequently, one Mr. Paul Rayburn, detective, -juvenile, came to pick me up, along with his partner, Detective House. -Well, we managed to find a place to live. And Paul suggested he had a -friend. And did I know anything about bartending; well, I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. What place did he find you to live in? Do you remember the -address? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. It was a rooming house. Actually, it was a -private home more or less cut into small apartments. I believe it was a -three-room apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there? - -Mrs. RICH. Here is where we are going to get into difficulty. I don’t -remember. I cannot remember the length of time or addresses I lived at. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you live at more than one place prior to the time Mr. -Perrin joined you in July? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any of the addresses of the places where -you lived? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, I remember I lived—when Mr. Perrin joined me I was -living on Oak Street, I believe. Then we moved to another street, and I -don’t remember where it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many places do you suppose you lived in prior to the -time Mr. Perrin joined you? - -Mrs. RICH. Two, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. One was on Oak Street? - -Mrs. RICH. That was the one—let’s put it this way. Two including the -one I was living at when he joined me. - -Mr. HUBERT. And one was on Oak Street? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. That was the big apartment building. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the other was a rooming house? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, I call it a rooming house. Perhaps I have named it -incorrectly. I would say a private home cut up into small apartments. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t remember where that was? - -Mrs. RICH. I cannot remember. I can remember the house. I would -probably know it if I see it. It is outside the city a little ways. It -wasn’t right in the heart of downtown. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the lady who owned the house? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, the other was an apartment building, you say. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. I believe—now, put this as supposed—I believe it was -1136 Oak Street, but I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that both places were on Oak Street? - -Mrs. RICH. No, no. The one on Oak, I think, that was the address. I -don’t recall what the first one was that Mr. Rayburn put me into. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if I get this straight. You lived in a boarding -house which was a house cut into small units, you say, and you don’t -know where that was located. - -Mrs. RICH. No; that is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay there, do you suppose? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 weeks, 2 weeks, 3 weeks. - -Mr. HUBERT. After which, as I understand, you then went to the larger -apartment house. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; on Oak Street, apartment row, where all these big -luxury apartments are. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was on Oak Street? - -Mrs. RICH. Oak Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until Mr. Perrin joined you? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. And for a while after. Until we found a place -comparable but at less money. - -Mr. HUBERT. And where was that? - -Mrs. RICH. That I don’t remember. Junios Street. I remember it didn’t -have a pool—it was a big brick apartment. Again, all of these places I -can close my eyes and picture. But I cannot tell you. I can’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there with Mr. Perrin? - -Mrs. RICH. At the last address that I don’t remember? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; ma’am. - -Mrs. RICH. Probably 3 or 4 months. I think we left Dallas in October -and went to New Orleans—either late October or early November. - -Mr. HUBERT. What year? - -Mrs. RICH. Of 1962. Now, this is where I am getting confused. It had to -have been 1961. This is where I get confused. When I stated before that -it was May of 1962, it wasn’t. It was May of 1961. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why do you make that correction now? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, it couldn’t have possibly been in 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why? - -Mrs. RICH. My husband died in August of 1962, in New Orleans. And we -had been there over a year. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had been in New Orleans over a year by the time he died? - -Mrs. RICH. Almost a year. Between New Orleans and Boston, and Miami. -You see—— - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave Dallas, then? - -Mrs. RICH. It would be October of 1961. - -Mr. HUBERT. That you left Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And all of these previous dates, May and July, you now wish -to correct—— - -Mrs. RICH. To 1961. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you lived with Mr. Perrin after leaving Dallas in -October of 1962—of 1961? - -Mrs. RICH. 1961. - -Mr. HUBERT. You lived in New Orleans most of the time? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he died there? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. You see, it was New Orleans and Boston. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I had asked you when you had first met Jack -Ruby, and I think you were beginning to tell us when we got into the -question of your residences. So now will you tell us how you met Jack -Ruby, and when? - -Mrs. RICH. The when I could not tell you exactly. Some time during -May or June, I believe. Mr. Ruby’s records could tell you, due to the -fact that I believe he probably took social security out. But the how -was that Mr. Rayburn took me up and got me the job up there. Detective -Rayburn. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long after you had arrived in Dallas did you meet -Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. RICH. Again, the time element eludes me. It could be anywhere from -2 or 3 weeks to a month. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought that it might be that long after you -arrived in Dallas under the circumstances that you told us about? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. A week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks. The last few years -time has become nothing for me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what was your occupation with Ruby, and where -was it? - -Mrs. RICH. I was bartender at the Carousel Lounge, on Commercial—well, -the main street in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Commerce? - -Mrs. RICH. Commerce. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the names of the other people who worked -with you at that time? - -Mrs. RICH. Buddy King—I should say his professional name is Buddy -King—Robert J. Stewart. I am trying to think of the name of that MC. I -have been trying to think of it, and I cannot. Ray something or other, -I believe. They came and they went. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you employed by Ruby altogether? - -Mrs. RICH. Probably a couple of months. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with Ruby after your husband joined you? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you work until you left Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long before leaving Dallas did you quit the job at -Ruby’s? - -Mrs. RICH. Possibly a couple of months, 3 months. I wasn’t in Dallas -more than maybe 5 months, 4 months at the most, 4 or 5 months at the -most. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say bartender, what do you mean? What were -your actual duties? - -Mrs. RICH. I was actually a bartender. I worked behind the bar mixing -and serving drinks. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of drinks? - -Mrs. RICH. Whatever was allowed. Actually, you are not allowed to serve -mixed drinks there. We do to special customers. You are not allowed to -serve hard liquor. But I served beer, and wine, of course, and your -setups. - -Mr. HUBERT. What customers did you serve hard liquor to? - -Mrs. RICH. Whomever I was told to. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names? - -Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t quote you names, perhaps. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who told you to serve them? - -Mrs. RICH. Mr. Ruby. It was a standing order. For a particular group of -people. Then whenever he would come in and say, “This is private stock -stuff,” that would mean for me to go where I knew the hard liquor was -and get it out, and get it ready for the people in his private office. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the particular group—who did it consist of? - -Mrs. RICH. The police department. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that Jack Ruby told you that when any member -of the police department came in, that there was a standing order that -you could serve them hard liquor? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And are you also saying that you did so? - -Mrs. RICH. I am saying that I needed a job and did so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the names of any particular officers to -whom you served hard liquor? - -Mrs. RICH. House, Rayburn—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can get some first names. - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember what House’s first name was, but it was -Paul Rayburn, and Detective—something House—they were partners. They -worked as a team, juvenile. And the rest were just faces and uniforms. - -Mr. HUBERT. How would you know them? - -Mrs. RICH. At that time, I knew them. - -Mr. HUBERT. You knew them to be police? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; of course not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that an order, too, from Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. RICH. That was. Unless they came in in the evening with their -wives. Then, of course, they paid. But then again, they didn’t have -hard liquor, either, at that time. This is when they came in, by -themselves, I was to go get the private stock, as he called it, special -stock. They were served whatever they wanted on the house. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that widespread? - -Mrs. RICH. I am not sure I understand what you mean by widespread. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have mentioned two names, and then said there -were others whose names you don’t remember. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, the only reason I remember House and Rayburn is -because they were personal friends of mine. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, how many others do you suppose you served? - -Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t estimate. I couldn’t give you a true and accurate -figure. Anyone that came in from the police department. Including -certain attorneys in town. One attorney I particularly remember was a -fellow named Sy Victorson, who subsequently became my attorney, and a -personal friend. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what? - -Mrs. RICH. And a personal friend. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your salary there? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. $50, $60 a week, I guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any tips? - -Mrs. RICH. Sometimes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man by the name of Andy Armstrong or -Andrew Armstrong? - -Mrs. RICH. The name Armstrong doesn’t ring a bell. I guess, if my -memory serves me correctly—wasn’t the colored man that cleaned up -around there, Andy? - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you remember him? - -Mrs. RICH. I wouldn’t swear to it. I do know we had a colored man -cleaning up, but I would be darned if I remember his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think it may have been Andy? - -Mrs. RICH. I can’t remember. I wouldn’t even dare venture a guess. In -all honesty, I would have to say I can’t really put a face to the name. - -Mr. HUBERT. But there was a colored man there? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was a colored man that cleaned up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay on in the afternoon and at night? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours? - -Mrs. RICH. I believe I would come in around 3, 4, 5 o’clock, I think, -sometimes I would come in at 6, or 7; I would work straight through to -midnight. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was this cleanup man present when you came in? - -Mrs. RICH. If I came in the afternoon, yes, the colored man was there. -As I say, in all honesty, I could not dare venture a name on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t remember any colored man who was there -helping at the bar in the night hours? - -Mrs. RICH. You don’t notice them. I mean they are there. If you have -been a bartender, you would know what I mean. You don’t notice people -like that. They are taken for granted they are there, you have a bar -helper. Heck, I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what you are saying is that you do not remember that -there was any colored man who assisted with the bar at night. - -Mrs. RICH. I will be darned if I can even put a face to whoever did -bring the bottles and stuff out to me, the cases. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your answer to my question, then, is that you do not -remember that there was a colored man other than the cleaner that you -mentioned. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, he did everything. I do remember he lugged beer cases -out for me. I think if my memory is right—I think he stacked my cooler -for me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would he leave before you? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t really remember. As I say, these people you take for -granted, you don’t pay any attention to them. I never gave it a second -thought. I had one thing on my mind, and it went against my grain. I -was doing something I knew to be illegal, and I knew I needed the job. -Every night I expected a raid. That was my prime concern. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul? - -Mrs. RICH. Ralph Lee? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; Ralph Paul. - -Mrs. RICH. If he is the one I am thinking of, he was the manager at -Earl’s Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Earl who? - -Mrs. RICH. Earl’s Club. I don’t know what Earl’s last name was. I -forgot. It is a private club in Dallas. But I knew him as Ralph Lee. -Oh, I don’t think it is the same one. Again, I would remember people if -I saw their faces. Names I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a person by the name of Eva Grant? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was she? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, she managed Jack’s other club; his sister managed the -Vegas Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet her? - -Mrs. RICH. One time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mrs. RICH. She came in at the club there one time, was introduced as -his sister, and that she managed the Vegas Club, which I had never been -out to. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty with Ruby? - -Mrs. RICH. Except the fact I was about ready to throw a cash register -on his head, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was that? - -Mrs. RICH. I shouldn’t have said that. I said except for the fact that -I was ready one night to throw a cash register on his head, no. I don’t -like to be pushed around. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting that he did push you around? - -Mrs. RICH. I am suggesting he threw me up against the bar and put a -bruise on my arm, and only because Bud King and one of the dancers -there pulled me off, I was going to kill him. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the argument about? - -Mrs. RICH. The bar glasses were not clean enough to suit him. And I -wasn’t pushing drinks to the customers fast enough. - -Mr. HUBERT. And so he remonstrated with you? - -Mrs. RICH. He did. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that included pushing you around? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And I was refused the privilege of bringing -an assault and battery suit against him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who refused you that? - -Mrs. RICH. The police department. I went down for information and was -going to Mr. Douglas—I believe he was—he is some attorney—I think he -was—he is with the DA’s office. I don’t remember his position. I can’t -remember his last name. I wanted to file suit against Ruby. And I was -refused. I was told if I did that I would never win it, and get myself -in more trouble than I bargained for. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was told to you by whom? - -Mrs. RICH. By the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. But what individual of the Dallas Police Department? - -Mrs. RICH. Again—and I wish to God I could—I can’t remember his name. -There was a detective, plainclothesman. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that you had spoken to someone in the district -attorney’s office? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I said that is who I was going to go to. I wasn’t -advised. I was flatly told not to. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you did not go to anyone in the district attorney’s -office? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did that put an end to your employment with Ruby? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I had already ceased with Ruby the night that that -happened. I walked out, and left him cold. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. After this altercation, you no longer worked for him? - -Mrs. RICH. I did not. I was just biding my time until I found another -job, which I did find. This was on a Wednesday. I was going to give him -notice and leave him—I wasn’t going to leave him over the weekend, but -I was going to start the other place the following Monday anyway. And -this just hastened it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you report that to your husband? - -Mrs. RICH. I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was employed in Dallas at that time, I think you said. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mrs. RICH. At this time, I don’t recall whether he was working for -Paul Rayburn, Detective Rayburn, at his used car lot, or whether he -was with Al’s Automotive. One of the two places. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a job did he have? - -Mrs. RICH. Mechanic. Subsequently my husband went up and Jack Ruby -threw him out of the club. My husband was going to talk to him. And I -found out about it. Ruby had already kicked him out of the club. And -then I disuaded him from going back further. I said, “Forget it, just -let it drop.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other employment in Dallas after this -altercation with Ruby? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did. At the—I think it was called just The Chalet. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located? - -Mrs. RICH. Again I can’t remember. Again it was on the other side of -Dallas. It was outside—in fact, I don’t thing it was right in Dallas -proper. It wasn’t in Dallas proper, I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do there? - -Mrs. RICH. This was a dining place. And I was a hostess. And in the -place they had this little booth, and they had a dart game, and you -could throw darts and win prizes, and I also ran that place for them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was your employer there? - -Mrs. RICH. Again, I cannot recall his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there? - -Mrs. RICH. Until I left Dallas—probably a month. Then we left to go -back to New Orleans. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you unemployed—that is to say, what period -was there between the time you left Ruby and the time you got this -employment at The Chalet? - -Mrs. RICH. Between the time I left Ruby and the time I went to The -Chalet, about 5 or 6 days. And then I quit The Chalet a little before -we left. And, of course, prior to going to Ruby’s I wasn’t employed. -Then there was a period of about a week, week and a-half, while I was -at Ruby’s, all of a sudden he decided he didn’t need a bartender. Then -I am recalled back. - -Mr. HUBERT. You left The Chalet about a week before you left Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. Probably a little more than that. Maybe 2, 2½ weeks. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why did you leave The Chalet? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, for one thing he was going to close down for -renovations. And then he said, “no, I am not; I am going to sell out.” -And he decided to close it down anyway. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you work for a place called the Theater Lounge? - -Mrs. RICH. Barney Weinstein—yes, I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? - -Mrs. RICH. That was during the time I had left Ruby and then went back -to Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for the Theater Lounge? - -Mrs. RICH. No more than a week or two. I forgot all about working for -Barney. I have to laugh. His brother owned the other stripping place -in town, right next to Ruby, upstairs. And they had this amateur show, -these amateur strippers. Barney was going to promote me as a stripper. -No thanks. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, before we get into any other matter, I want -to go back to the letter that you handed me which was dated October 25, -1963. It is addressed, “To Whom it May Concern:” - -It purports to be signed by Oscar Kistle, chief deputy, district -attorney. It is on stationery of the office of the District Attorney of -Sacramento County. I have had a Xerox copy made of it. I have returned -the original to you, is that right? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking the Xerox copy of that document for -identification by writing on the right-hand margin the following words; -to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of -Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name, and in order -that the record may show that there is no misunderstanding about it, I -wonder if you would sign your name as I have mine. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I would. Note for the record that on the left-hand -margin I signed “Nancy E. Perrin Rich.” - -Mr. HUBERT. I think the letter that you handed me was in an envelope, -which was plain, other than the fact that it had in the left-hand upper -corner the words “Office of District Attorney, Room 204, Courthouse, -Sacramento 14, California”. I am marking a Xerox copy of the original -of that envelope, which has been returned to you, for identification -by writing on the Xerox copy the following, to wit: “Washington, D.C., -June 2, 1964, Exhibit 2, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which -I have signed my name, and I ask you to sign yours as you did with -reference to Exhibit No. 1. - -Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under -Mr. Hubert’s signature. - -(The documents referred to were marked Nancy E. Perrin Rich Exhibits 1 -and 2 for identification.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, ma’am. - -Mrs. RICH. At this time I would also, pertaining to my statement -concerning working for various police organizations, introduce into -this informal hearing, so to speak, another piece of material given -to me by the Oakland Police Department while working on a case for -them, under the name of Julie Anne Cody. Also under this name is a -police record purposely devised by the Oakland Police Department for -obvious purposes, to coincide with this card that I am about to hand -to Mr. Hubert—also, how shall we say it—falsified, made up by the -Oakland Police Department, for obvious purposes. This was to get me -into a particular place—I had to have a police record—all done with the -sanction of the Oakland Police Department. May I also note that on that -card the dates and the names are fictitious, intentionally so. The card -was in reality printed in, I believe, November of 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say you want to introduce this card into this -proceeding? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. And I will tell you why. If you note the date on -that, some of my statements—Let’s say that this came into light, and -I didn’t give the explanation of why and what this meant—the dates -would conflict with some of my testimony. And I want this understood -that this was purely done to, shall we say, consummate a case for the -Oakland Police Department. I was not actually in California the dates -on that card. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was this card issued to you? - -Mrs. RICH. In reality, this card was issued in November of 1963. I was -working on a grand larceny case. - -Mr. HUBERT. You want this card back, the original? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, as soon as we have a Xerox copy made of the -card, we will identify it and sign the copies as we have done the other. - -Meanwhile, let us pass on to another point. I think you have mentioned -that you saw Ruby at a certain meeting at which your husband was -present and there was a general discussion of guns or Cuban refugees. - -Mrs. RICH. Your statement is partially correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what is actually correct? - -Mrs. RICH. At the first meeting there were four people present. There -was a colonel, or a light colonel, I forgot which. I also forget -whether he was Air Force or Army. It seems to me he was Army. And it -seems to me he was regular Army. There was my husband, Mr. Perrin, -myself, and a fellow named Dave, and I don’t remember his last name. -Dave C.—I think it was Cole, but I wouldn’t be sure. - -Dave came to my husband with a proposition—— - -Mr. HUBERT. There were only four people present? - -Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify the statement about Dave. He was a bartender -for the University Club on Commerce Street in Dallas. I became -associated with him and subsequently so did my husband. Well, at first -it looked all right to me. They wanted someone to pilot a boat—someone -that knew Cuba, and my husband claimed he did. Whether he did, I don’t -know. I know he did know boats. So they were going to bring Cuban -refugees out into Miami. All this was fine, because by that time -everyone knew Castro for what he appears to be, shall we say. So I said -sure, why not—$10,000. I said that is fine. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that that you and your husband were to -receive $10,000 for your services? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, I was incidental. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to know. - -Mrs. RICH. I say I was incidental. My husband was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was to receive $10,000? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who told him so? - -Mrs. RICH. The colonel. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did this meeting take place? - -Mrs. RICH. In Dallas at an apartment building. Again, I can describe -that darned building to a “T” and I couldn’t tell you what street it is -on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe it for us, please? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was sitting—if I may do it in diagram. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what section of the city it was? - -Mrs. RICH. No; this I don’t. You come along—let’s say this is your -main street, that the apartment building set on. We have an apartment -building, not setting facing the street, but with the side towards the -street. A hill slopes up. There is a path that kind of winds around. -There are flowers and gardens here; and in them I believe there is -a little fountain—and in them was lights—illuminating the gardens; -and you have to come up a little hill, and walk around—I am not sure -whether there was a gravel path or not, or whether it is flagstone—and -into the building here. And it was a double deck, I believe—perhaps a -triple. - -Mr. HUBERT. Apartment house? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many apartments, roughly speaking? - -Mrs. RICH. I could not say how many. The standard apartment building -for Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, at this point let us do this: You have handed -us the card that you referred to in your testimony previously. We have -now had a Xerox copy made of it. I am handing you back the original. -For the purpose of identification, I am marking the Xerox copy, front -and back, as follows, to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit -No. 3, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” and I am signing my name below -that. And on the reverse side of it, which appears on another Xerox -page, I am marking for the purpose of identification the following: -“Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 3-A, Deposition of Nancy -Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name. And I ask you, please, -to sign both documents below my name so that the record will show that -we have been speaking of the same document. - -Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under -Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3. Will you note for the record that I -signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3-A. - -(The documents referred to were marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibits Nos. -3 and 3-A for identification.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, a moment ago you were testifying concerning an -apartment house at which you and your husband met a colonel and another -man by the name of Dave C., I think you said. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; that is an initial—C. Dave took us there. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark that document for the purpose of -identification “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, -Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I am signing my name, and -I ask you to sign your name on it, if you please. - -Mrs. RICH. I didn’t mean for this to be an exhibit. Will you note for -the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name -on Exhibit No. 4. Also note for the record the writing I am doing after -signing is merely designating what the lines mean. - -(The document referred to was marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibit No. 4 -for identification.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in stating that prior to the writing you -have just put on the document, Exhibit No. 4, there were merely lines -which indicated a street and an apartment and a little path, showing -a garden. And that since the document has been identified, you have -written in all that appears in handwriting? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember on what floor this apartment was that you -visited? - -Mrs. RICH. I believe the first. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether it was to the left or the right as -you went in? - -Mrs. RICH. There was no question of left or right as such. It was—you -just walked in. There was no hallway to indicate left or right, if that -is what you are referring to. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this apartment actually opened on the path? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many rooms did it have? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall whether it was a one or two bedroom. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any other description of the apartment -building, first of all? - -Mrs. RICH. The apartment itself wasn’t too well furnished. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a brick apartment? - -Mrs. RICH. I believe it was. Either brick or stucco. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the color of it? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t. But I believe it had colored doors. Now, I could be -mistaken. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the apartment itself was one or two bedrooms, and I -think you say it was not well furnished. Do you recall anything about -the interior of the apartment that would be significant? - -Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify that. When I say not well furnished, I should -have said sparsely furnished. It looked like an unfurnished apartment -that he had just thrown some furniture into and not too much of it. I -believe I remember he said something about he just moved in; hadn’t -finished it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it have lamps in it? - -Mrs. RICH. I believe it did. I think it had one lamp on the table. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything about the furniture that was there? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was, I believe you call it Danish modern. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it upholstered? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall. It was typical cheap apartment furniture. I -believe it had plastic upholstery. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you went there at night. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time? - -Mrs. RICH. It was after dark. Probably 9 o’clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long it took you to drive from where you -were living to this place? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I do not. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there? - -Mrs. RICH. In Dave’s car. Now, again, I said four people present. -I should have counted—he had a girl with him. She wasn’t in it or -anything, just some girl he had along for the evening. She was never -part of it. In fact, I think she stayed in the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the place? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour at the most. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the general discussion? - -Mrs. RICH. Feeling each other out. I just kind of sat there and -listened. The general gist of it was we were going to obtain a boat, -the colonel could obtain various things, and nothing specific was -mentioned on what the various things were at that time. And we were -going to go and pick up—they were deciding where to pick them up—pick -up Cuban refugees, and bring them over to the main coast, meaning -Miami, which, quite frankly, I adhered to because at that time, as -I say, Castro is or was what we suppose him to be today, and quite -frankly I had seen underprivileged countries and at that time thought -it was a good idea. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the sum of $10,000 mentioned at that meeting? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who mentioned it? - -Mrs. RICH. The colonel. And it seemed awfully exorbitant for something -like this. I smelled a fish, to quote a maxim. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you thought that there was too much money involved -for this sort of operation? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t express that view, of course? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I didn’t say anything. I just kept quiet. - -Mr. HUBERT. How were matters left at the end of that meeting? - -Mrs. RICH. That there were more people involved, and that we were to -attend a meeting at some later date, of which we would be advised. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised? - -Mrs. RICH. We were. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did another meeting take place? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; it did. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 5 or 6 days, give or take a day or 2. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the same place? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it at night? - -Mrs. RICH. It was. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there then? - -Mrs. RICH. We went in our own car, but with Dave with us. At that time, -Dave and my husband and I were in our car. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Tell us what happened. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, we got there and at that time there was the colonel -and another middle-aged woman, kind of a real old granite face I would -describe her, steel-gray hair. Looked rather mannish. And there was a -rather—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know her name? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I was introduced. Names were mentioned around. I don’t -recall it. And then there was another rather pugnacious-looking fellow, -who looked at though he might have been an ex-prizefighter. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him? - -Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to everyone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who else was there? - -Mrs. RICH. The colonel, the woman, and the prizefighter type, a couple -of other men that just kind of sat off in the corner. One of them -looked rather dark, like he might have been Cuban or Latin American, -and Dave, my husband, and myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at that meeting. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, apparently from what I could discern, they had some -kind of a hitch in their plans. And at that time I point blank spoke -up and said, “Well, suppose we discuss the plans in full before -we”—meaning my husband and myself—“get into this. I would like to know -what we are getting into. And at this point you know by now I certainly -have a say in this matter.” Then it came out—boom—quite blank. We were -going to bring Cuban refugees out—but we were going to run military -supplies and Enfield rifles in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement? - -Mrs. RICH. I believe it was the Latin-looking fellow that first made -the statement. But the colonel clarified it. The colonel seemed to be -the head of it and seemed to do all the talking. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe what the colonel looked like? - -Mrs. RICH. Vaguely. I would say approximately 45 to 50, perhaps a -little younger. He was kind of bald, and that may have made him look -older. As I recall, a rather slightly built man—and I would not swear -to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other characteristics? - -Mrs. RICH. Not that I can recall, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he in summer uniform? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Short sleeves? - -Mrs. RICH. If my memory serves me; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you whom he was representing in the matter? - -Mrs. RICH. Not exactly. That fact never did come clear to me. A group -of people. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he indicate in anyway that he was acting -officially, in his official capacity? - -Mrs. RICH. No; he was not acting officially. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? - -Mrs. RICH. Because of certain statements that were made—statements -such as that the guns would have to come in via Mexico, meaning the -Enfield rifles. Statements like “We have been taking stuff off of the -base for the last 3 months getting prepared for this”—meaning military -equipment, I suppose small arms, or explosives, et cetera, as I -understood it. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was also in uniform on the first occasion? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. The same type of uniform? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say you never saw him out of uniform? All of the times -you saw him he was in uniform? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Summer uniform? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So at that meeting it came out that the project had two -purposes. One was to bring arms in, and the other was to take refuges -out. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; to make money both ways. Then it became crystal clear -why so much money was to be paid for the pilot of the boat. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how was that meeting left? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, at that time when he said that, my first thought -was “Nancy, get out of here, this is no good, this stinks.” I have -no qualms about making money, but not when it is against the Federal -Government but let’s play along and see what happens. I said, “All -right, we will go. But you can take the $10,000 and keep it. I want -$25,000 or we don’t move.” It was left that the bigwigs would decide -among themselves. During this meeting I had the shock of my life. -Apparently they were having some hitch in money arriving. No one -actually said that that was what it was. But this is what I presumed it -to be. I am sitting there. A knock comes on the door and who walks in -but my little friend Jack Ruby. And you could have knocked me over with -a feather. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was at the second meeting? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what facts occurred to give you the impression that -there was a hitch with respect to money? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, just that they were talking about, well, first of -all when I say we—a group of people were supposed to go to Mexico -to make the arrangement for rifles but “Well, no, you can’t leave -tomorrow”—they dropped it. And just evasive statements that led me to -believe that perhaps they were lacking in funds. - -And then Ruby comes in, and everybody looks like this, you know, a big -smile—like here comes the Saviour, or something. And he took one look -at me, I took one look at him, and we glared, we never spoke a word. -I don’t know if you have ever met the man. But he has this nervous -air about him. And he seemed overly nervous that night. He bustled on -in. The colonel rushed out into the kitchen or bedroom, I am not sure -which. Ruby had—and he always did carry a gun—and I noticed a rather -extensive bulge in his—about where his breast pocket would be. But at -that time I thought it was a shoulder holster, which he was in the -habit of carrying. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was in the habit of carrying? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. Either a shoulder holster or a gun stuck in his pocket. -I always had a gun behind the bar. That is normal. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had seen it at his shoulder? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; which was normal—because he made the bank deposit. I -made the bank deposit a couple of times for him and carried a gun when -I made it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any signs of recognition of you? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; he glared at me and I glared back, as much as to say to -each other what the heck are you doing here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you told the colonel and Dave what your name was prior -to that? - -Mrs. RICH. At that time we—I think it will be obvious to you gentlemen -the reason—we were going under Jack Starr and Nancy Starr. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean that is the name that Ruby knew you under? - -Mrs. RICH. No. Jack Ruby knew me as Nancy Perrin. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he knew your husband was Robert Perrin? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. But like I say for obvious reasons we used the name -Jack and Nancy Starr. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you told the colonel and Dave that your -name—— - -Mrs. RICH. No; Dave knew our real name. - -Mr. HUBERT. The colonel—— - -Mrs. RICH. The colonel and everyone else involved, with the exception -of Ruby and Dave. - -Mr. HUBERT. They knew you as Nancy Starr? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. Also let me state that my husbands’ nom de plume as a -writer was Jack Starr. I have also published under Nancy Starr. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, they went in and came out and the bulge was gone, -and everybody was really happy, and all of a sudden they seemed to be -happy. So it was my impression Ruby brought money in. - -Mr. HUBERT. They walked out of the apartment? - -Mrs. RICH. Ruby left. He didn’t stay. He wasn’t there for more than 15 -minutes at the most. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say all of a sudden the bulge was gone? - -Mrs. RICH. The bulge was gone from Ruby when he left. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave the room? - -Mrs. RICH. He left the apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean from the time he came in until he left. - -Mrs. RICH. He came in. To everyone else except my husband and I he -said, “Hi.” He and the colonel rushed into—I forget whether it was the -kitchen or the bedroom. They were in there about 10 minutes. I heard -some rather loud undistinguishable words. They closed the door. When -they came out everybody looked relieved. And Ruby just walked out. - -Mr. HUBERT. And said nothing to you? - -Mrs. RICH. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say the money was forthcoming? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it? - -Mrs. RICH. No; we didn’t. First they had to pay for this -pugnacious-looking fellow and one of the Latins who were going down to -Mexico to make arrangements and pay for the guns. All of a sudden just -before Ruby come in they couldn’t go, and right after Ruby left they -were on the plane the next morning, so to speak. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Jack Ruby hand any money to anybody? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see any money handed to anyone else. - -Mrs. RICH. No; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. So the way it was left then, these people, the others, were -going to go to Mexico—— - -Mrs. RICH. Actually they were going to leave not the day following, but -the day after that—2 days later they were going to leave for Mexico. I -just assumed that that was money that Ruby brought in. Because before -that they could not go, they did not have the finances, and after he -left they did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they say they did not have the finances, or was it your -assumption that they did not? - -Mrs. RICH. When someone is stalling around, and not setting a concrete -date and saying, “Well, we have to wait” and that it will get here -soon, and statements like that that I hear in conversation, then all of -a sudden in comes a man with a bulge and hands it to the colonel in the -back room, so to speak, and all of a sudden, boom, the reservations -are made then and there, I think that is a pretty good assumption. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those are the facts that you observed upon -which you base the assumptions that you have made. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And the big sigh of relief, so to speak, -afterwards. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you then ask about your portion of the money? - -Mrs. RICH. At that time it was to be decided, as I say, among the -bigwigs. I had asked for $25,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that before Ruby came in? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; in fact it was just a few minutes before he knocked on -the door. They decided they did not know, and they were going to have -a meeting—there were some other people involved higher up than they -were. They would have to talk it over with them. At that time I had it -in my mind I would go ahead and play ball—and I was stalling when I -asked for the $25,000—that I would notify the Federal authorities. As I -say, bringing the refugees out is one thing. Running in guns is another -thing, for a Communist country which at that time it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that meeting last? - -Mrs. RICH. They were still going when we left. And we were there about -2½ hours. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you and your husband? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Dave remained behind? - -Mrs. RICH. He remained. Well, actually at that point business was over, -and it just became a party. Neither my husband nor I drink, so we left. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave it with them? Who was going to make the -next move? - -Mrs. RICH. We were to be notified as to the time and place of the next -meeting and as to the decision on upping the ante, so to speak. - -Mr. HUBERT. They did not reject your offer of $25,000? - -Mrs. RICH. It was to be discussed. - -Mr. HUBERT. $10,000 was all right. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; $10,000 was offered. - -Mr. HUBERT. $25,000, which was your counter offer, had to be discussed. - -Mrs. RICH. That’s correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And they told you they would discuss that and let you know. - -Mrs. RICH. With some other people that were higher up. - -Mr. HUBERT. They told you they were higher up? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; the colonel said that they were higher up. I do not -know the exact words. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened then? - -Mrs. RICH. I think his exact words were something like “I will discuss -it with my bosses.” - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, about 3 or 4 days later we were told there was going -to be another meeting to attend. Dave came over and told us. And we -went. And—— - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened at that meeting? First of all, who was there? -How did you go? - -Mrs. RICH. My husband and I. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went in your car? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car did you have? - -Mrs. RICH. At that time I believe we had a 1956 blue and white Ford, if -I am not mistaken. - -Mr. HUBERT. What license plate? - -Mrs. RICH. Texas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Under the name of Perrin? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you went with your husband. This was the -third visit. Same place? - -Mrs. RICH. Same place. - -Mr. HUBERT. Same apartment? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. No change in the furniture or decorations or anything of -that sort? - -Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I did not really notice. - -Mr. HUBERT. And this third meeting was about 4 or 5 days after the -first? - -Mrs. RICH. Three or four; after the second. - -Mr. HUBERT. How were you notified to come to the first meeting? - -Mrs. RICH. To come to the first meeting? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; the third. - -Mrs. RICH. Dave. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Dave was the man who was in between, as it -were. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, Dave was in it. It was only because he was our friend. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he to get anything out of it? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know; never did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you discuss that with him? - -Mrs. RICH. In that sort of business, you don’t discuss things, -apparently. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, not to that point. It wouldn’t have done me any good. -I would have just gotten a “none of your business” answer. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know that to be a fact, did you? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, call it intuition. I don’t know. I just wouldn’t have -gotten an answer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that Dave expected some money? - -Mrs. RICH. I suppose so. I never did get his position quite clear in my -mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was the one that had brought you into the picture in the -first place. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. It seemed to me like a front man for them, or -something, or a recruiter almost. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were concerned about the question of money -involved in this thing, because as you said you let them know that you -would have a say about this. - -Mrs. RICH. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you did not discuss with Dave whether he was to be paid -by you or the other side, as it were. - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; he wasn’t to be paid by us. He brought us into the -group, so to speak. The only thing I could make him out to be is a -recruiter. Not to be paid by us. Nothing was ever mentioned of Dave -going on any of these trips. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he was not to get a fee for finding you. - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I really don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you did not raise the point with him. - -Mrs. RICH. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did your husband, to your knowledge. - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I didn’t ask him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it concern you that Dave might want some of the money -that you were going to get? - -Mrs. RICH. Not particularly, because at that time I had already made up -my mind to go to the authorities with it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had made up your mind when? - -Mrs. RICH. After the second meeting, I found out they were going to -run rifles in, and military supplies and things that apparently—again -apparently were being pilfered from a base somewhere. - -Mr. HUBERT. You made up your mind at the end really of the second -meeting. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; and then they said to run rifles and stolen military -supplies in—that was it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell your husband so? - -Mrs. RICH. I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell Dave so? - -Mrs. RICH. I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the authorities? - -Mrs. RICH. I never had the chance. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us why? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, we went back to that third meeting and apparently by -mutual consent we got out of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at the third meeting, including who -was there. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, who was there—there was the colonel, again this -pugnacious-looking fellow who supposedly had gone to Mexico and been -back; the Latin-looking fellow and the other one with him who might -have been Latin wasn’t there—this woman was there. And another man I -had not seen before, but whose face rang a bell. And I could not put a -name to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been able to do so? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was it? - -Mrs. RICH. Again, unless I am awfully mistaken, and I have yet to be -able to find a picture of this man, but I recall seeing a picture and I -know why I had associated him—of his father. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whose father? - -Mrs. RICH. This particular man. Now, again, what I am about to say is -not fact. It is something that I have never quite been able to get -clear in my mind and never will, until I can find a picture. Unless I -am very mistaken, the man at that third meeting was Vito Genovese’s son. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was not introduced as such? - -Mrs. RICH. He was introduced as Tony. That was all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Vito Genovese? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I never did. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you knew his picture. - -Mrs. RICH. I had seen his picture. - -Mr. HUBERT. You thought there was a resemblance between that picture -and this man? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. For a week this bothered me. And all of a sudden it -came crystal clear. - -Mr. HUBERT. What became clear? - -Mrs. RICH. That unless I was way off base, that is who it was. And I do -know that a lot of people—— - -Mr. HUBERT. It was a week after the third meeting? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. I had been trying to put a name to that face. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what else happened at the third meeting? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, No. 1, the raise of ante was turned down. The colonel -asked us if we would accept $15,000. My husband started to say -something. I hushed him up and said “No.” I said, “I don’t know. I -want some time to think about it.” So then the phone rang, and quite a -lengthy conversation took place in the other room. I could not swear to -who was on the other end of the phone, I have a pretty good idea. And -the colonel came back out and said, “I don’t know. We are going to call -this off for a while anyway. There has just been a change of plans. We -are going to have to postpone this for 3 or 4 months. There will be one -more meeting.” And at that time I stood up and I said, “Look, quite -frankly I don’t believe we want any part of this at all.” All I wanted -to do then and there was to get the devil out of there. I quite frankly -was scared. So I grabbed my old man and we cleared out. - -Mr. HUBERT. But before clearing out, you told them you wanted no part -of it. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; that was after the colonel had said there was going to -be a 3- or 4-month delay and change of plans, and all this, that and -the other. I did not quite figure that maybe things were kosher. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did they accept your suggestion that you would bail out? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. We left. I wasn’t going to wait around to find -out. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you never did report it to the authorities. - -Mrs. RICH. No; I never did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, my husband got picked up in Dallas, and I will never -know if this was true—he said it wasn’t—the policeman said it was. My -husband had a .45. It was not registered. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean a pistol? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; a service automatic. He had no right carrying it. -He had it in the car. At that time he had a little old Nash Rambler -station wagon of his own. This cop says when he picked my husband up -my husband was standing in a little clearing beside the road there on -the way out to Rayburn, brandishing a gun around saying he was going -to kill somebody. He come to find out if it was a cop he was going to -kill. I will never know to this day whether this was true or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did this happen? - -Mrs. RICH. That happened between the second and third meeting, if my -time elements are right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was your husband arrested? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. That is when this Sy Victorson I mentioned -earlier in my testimony came in. He was an attorney. Perhaps not too -honest in some of the things he does, but a good attorney. And he got -my husband out of it. I had to pay some money. I will never know to -this day whether it was true. I can’t believe it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that event took place between the second and third -meeting, is that right? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did you leave Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, possibly 2 weeks. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was the reason for leaving Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. The minute I put a name to that face I said to Bob, “We are -getting out of here, and we are getting out fast, right now.” That -was about 5 o’clock at night. At 8 o’clock we was packed in a U-Haul -trailer and out. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you did not put the name to the face at the third -meeting. - -Mrs. RICH. No; not until about a week later. - -Mr. HUBERT. You then drove to New Orleans? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. But by then everything had fallen into place, because -Ruby had had various characters visit him, both from New York, Chicago, -even from up in Minneapolis. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? - -Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to some of them. I was asked to go out with -some of them. - -(At this point, a short recess was taken.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think we left off at the place where you were saying -that subsequent to the third meeting Ruby was visited by certain people -whose names I do not think you mentioned. - -Mrs. RICH. No; this was prior. This is while I worked for Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. - -Mrs. RICH. I saw them come and go. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more after the third meeting? - -Mrs. RICH. I did not. I did not see him in fact at the third meeting. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the second. - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, perhaps on the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not converse with him about this matter at all? - -Mrs. RICH. I did not. I wanted no truck with the man. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your reason for leaving Dallas, you say, was that—— - -Mrs. RICH. I smelled an element that I did not want to have any part of. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that element was what? - -Mrs. RICH. Police characters, let’s say. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically it was, as I understood your testimony, -that you suddenly identified the man who was at the third meeting, but -not at any other, as possibly being the son of Vito Genovese. - -Mrs. RICH. Possibly. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that you made that recognition, or you associated that -man whom you saw with Vito Genovese, solely because you had seen a -picture of Vito Genovese. - -Mrs. RICH. That’s correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you came to the conclusion, then, that Vito Genovese -and that group of people were involved in this matter. - -Mrs. RICH. Within my own mind; yes. I thought—then I got thinking -perhaps the higher-up that the colonel spoke of was perhaps the element -I did not want to deal with that was running the guns in, and God knows -what else. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you report it to the authorities in the interval -between the third meeting and the time you left Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason that I was hesitant about mentioning -anything about my husband’s past. I did not know how much of what my -husband had told me was true. I did not know how much of that he knew -before I knew it, or how deeply he was involved in anything. And quite -frankly if my husband was still alive, I would never have gone to the -FBI. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you already told us at the end of the second meeting -you had decided to tell the authorities. - -Mrs. RICH. Not when I see that element there. - -Mr. HUBERT. But that element does not affect—— - -Mrs. RICH. That element, if what my husband had told me was true, -could have involved him a lot deeper than I suspected. And quite -frankly I am not stupid enough, shall we say, to believe if I ever -went to the authorities and that element was involved that I would -ever live to tell a second story. And if my suppositions were true as -to who the man’s identity really is—a combination of fear for myself -and protecting my husband. And at that time I thought, I suppose many -citizens do, well, let the next fellow do it, they will catch them -eventually. I chose to close my eyes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You still have the fear of that element? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I do not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, since then I have become involved more extensively or -intensively in police work—and I don’t know—perhaps I have got some -sense in my head. I am just not. I was told to tell you this—by the -way, I had better bring it in now—I don’t know if it has any direct -result on this or not—but I was advised by Mr. Sweeny from the Secret -Service and Mr. Fahety from the FBI to tell you of this. A week—— - -Mr. HUBERT. When did Mr. Sweeny and Mr. Fahety tell you what you are -about to tell us? - -Mrs. RICH. Fahety said it on Monday—Sweeny said it on Monday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Last Monday? - -Mrs. RICH. Yesterday. And Fahety told me Friday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mrs. RICH. On the phone, when I talked to the FBI and the Secret -Service, respectively. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. They called you? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did they tell you? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, the FBI had called me to advise me of my receiving -this letter, because Kennett had called them. And Sweeny called me to -advise me of my tickets and transportation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called the FBI? - -Mrs. RICH. Rod Kennett had opened the letter from you people. And at -this time—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what they advised you. - -Mrs. RICH. They advised me to tell you what I am about to tell you. A -week ago last Saturday night I got home about 10:30, my brother-in-law -had a stroke—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get the date of that. - -Mrs. RICH. That would be a week ago last Saturday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Last Saturday was the 30th—the 23d of May. - -Mrs. RICH. I believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mrs. RICH. About 10:30 at night I got home. And some phone calls -started. Again, let me say this may not or it may have a bearing -on this. My life was directly threatened. I called the Hanover -police—something I very seldom will do. But I panicked. They also -phoned my husband’s office. He was working that night on dispatch at -the cab company. They threatened my life with him. Sometimes they -would call and say something, sometimes just hang up, sometimes just -giggle. But they directly threatened my life. I thought perhaps it -was something to do with various police organization work I had done, -somebody had a grudge or something, or a crank, or anything. The phone -calls stopped and they started again. I called the police department -again. But then I was in hysterics. - -Last Thursday I was on my way from my home up to North Attleboro, Mass. -For approximately 30 miles I was followed, and subsequently, up until -last Sunday I have had a tail on me. I notified the Mansfield police. -They got the registration number and the name of the fellow following -me. And he could give no reason why he was almost 60 or 70 miles from -where he lived. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the Mansfield police have a record of that? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. Mansfield, Mass. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you also reported it to the police of—— - -Mrs. RICH. Hanover—the phone calls; yes. May I also add at this time -that due to a personal contact of mine, I will be doing, not for pay -but as a favor, a little bit of looking into a few matters for the -Mansfield Police Department for Chief D’Alefie, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. He recently contacted you? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, the day I was up there we got talking and come to find -out I could probably help him—in fact, me being here today stopped me -from actually doing it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the day you saw him was last Thursday? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was at that time he said he might be able to use -your services? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; most definitely. And then again, come Friday, and I get -notification of this, I was just wondering whether or not it added in. -It may and it may not. But I was told to tell you. And I have done so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened on Friday? - -Mrs. RICH. No. I received notification, your letter. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see what you mean. - -Mrs. RICH. And I wondered if it did not somehow have a bearing on this. - -Mr. HUBERT. But this tailing was after you got the letter, and after -you had spoken to—— - -Mrs. RICH. No; it started the day before. It was the same week. -Thursday I started to be tailed. Rod got the letter Thursday, called -the FBI, and God knows how many people he told. Thursday afternoon I -picked up a tail. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you reported that to the Mansfield police. - -Mrs. RICH. That was the first time I saw a policeman that I could pull -over and say, “Get the guy, he is tailing me.” And he most definitely -was. - -Mr. HUBERT. But there were two occasions when you observed that you -were being tailed. - -Mrs. RICH. No; from last Thursday up until Sunday night I had a tail on -me. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you reported to the chief of police in Mansfield on -Thursday that you had a tail on you. - -Mrs. RICH. The Mansfield police is the one that caught the guy that was -tailing me Thursday. I have not had a chance to report—— - -Mr. HUBERT. It was a different person, then, you think. - -Mrs. RICH. The person that has been tailing me Friday, Saturday, and -Sunday is not the same person that has been tailing me Thursday. They -caught the guy Thursday. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile was it that was tailing you? - -Mrs. RICH. Thursday? - -Mr. HUBERT. No. Well, Thursday first. - -Mrs. RICH. Thursday was a black Pontiac, Massachusetts registration, a -Mr. Alberto, from Hyde Park. They got him. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is his name, Alberto? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name? - -Mrs. RICH. I have forgotten. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the other car that has been tailing you? - -Mrs. RICH. Plural. - -Mr. HUBERT. What? - -Mrs. RICH. More than one. - -Mr. HUBERT. More than one individual, or more than one car, or both? - -Mrs. RICH. Both. Friday and Saturday it was a green, I would say, -probably 1961, 1962 Chevrolet. - -Mr. HUBERT. Green? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it the same man? - -Mrs. RICH. No; it was not. It was an older man. The fellow following me -was probably maybe 21, 23 years old. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the first fellow. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Friday and Saturday it was the same man? - -Mrs. RICH. Middle aged; I didn’t get a real good look at him—I would -say probably in his forties. He rather looked to be a husky-looking -fellow. And Sunday I picked up a tail, and it was a man and a woman. -And I thought I recognized the girl, and I cannot be sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Same automobile? - -Mrs. RICH. No; it was not the same vehicle. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that automobile. - -Mrs. RICH. The vehicle that was on me Sunday was a blue two-door -hardtop. And I do not know the make of the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have not reported those last incidents? - -Mrs. RICH. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, they tailed you from where to where? - -Mrs. RICH. Wherever I went. I would leave the house, and believe me I -think I know when I am being tailed. When I pull over to the side of -the road, and a car pulls up and doesn’t pass me—I will do this two or -three times. And when I take a turnoff where nobody else will take, and -the car is still there, I think they are tailing me. - -Mr. HUBERT. You tried to shake them? - -Mrs. RICH. Precisely. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were not able to do so. - -Mrs. RICH. That’s correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you get to your house, did they park around it? - -Mrs. RICH. The one time the man did, down on the bridge—the boundary -line to our property is a river. And he sat down there and pretended -to be looking in the water. And then I would see him down by Jordan’s, -which is an eating house. Then he would be cruising around. And finally -he would give up and go away. And in a couple of hours he would be -back. Every time I took the car out, they were there. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about at night? Did you observe anything? - -Mrs. RICH. I didn’t go out at night. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore you did not observe anything. - -Mrs. RICH. No; I didn’t bother. Saturday I went to Maine—took my -daughter down to my mother’s. I had the green car on my tail all the -way to Maine and back. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to Washington to come to this deposition? - -Mrs. RICH. By plane; American Airlines. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice anything about being tailed in that regard? - -Mrs. RICH. I didn’t notice. I don’t think I was. I left my house in my -own car and drove to North Quincy, where I was subsequently picked up -by Mr. Milton of the Secret Service and taken directly to the airport, -and he stayed with me until I left. I was subsequently met here by Bill -something-or-other of the Secret Service. Now, as I say, this may or -may not—quite frankly, I don’t think it does have any bearing on this. -But I think it is something entirely different. I think it has to do -with the names of some bookmakers and a couple of abortionists I turned -in to the district attorney in Boston. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mentioned to me earlier that this card which has -been identified as Exhibit No. 3 is a card that is usually issued—am I -not right—that it is a card usually issued under the requirements of -California law to a person who has got a record; is that correct? - -Mrs. RICH. No; that is not correct. No. 1, the card is obsolete. That -is why it was back-dated. It was merely a pawnshop identification card. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that it would establish your status -in someway for, I think you used the word, obvious purposes. What would -this card do in connection with the work that you were supposed to do? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, the card in itself, nothing. It would prove I was -there when I said I was, because I had to attend associations with -certain people, who at that time were safely tucked away, but at -the time I was supposedly supposed to be there they were not—I was -supposedly supposed to have worked for these people. If I recall -correctly I said that I have a police record under that same name of -Julie Anne Cody. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that name—that police record—is a fictitious record in -the sense that the offenses listed under the name of Julie Anne Cody -really did not ever occur. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any record under your right name? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes, I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is that? - -Mrs. RICH. That is in Brookline, Mass., and it is a record for -prostitution. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that fictitious? - -Mrs. RICH. That is not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only record you have? - -Mrs. RICH. That’s correct—that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I assume that you would know all the records you have. - -Mrs. RICH. Well, when I say that, I was picked up twice in Dallas and -both times the charges were dropped—as far as I know. That is what Sy -Victorson told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged? - -Mrs. RICH. Not that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever booked? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you were arrested. - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. One time I was in jail for a couple of hours, the other -time 5 hours, because they could not get hold of Sy, who was on the -golf course. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you told why you were being arrested? - -Mrs. RICH. I was arrested for investigation of vag, narcotics—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Of what? - -Mrs. RICH. Vag—vagrancy. Narcotics, prostitution, and anything else -they could dream up. This is very shortly after I had threatened to go -and bring suit against Mr. Ruby. I was told I might find the climate -outside of Dallas a little more to my liking if I didn’t take the -advice of the police department. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that? - -Mrs. RICH. The time I went down and wanted to bring charges against -Ruby for assault and battery, I was told not to, and at that time I was -also advised—I was not told to leave the city or anything like that, -but that it was nice in Chicago, for instance, that time of year. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that you did not remember the name of -the man. - -Mrs. RICH. I cannot remember the name of the detective that I spoke to; -no. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he was the detective on the police force? - -Mrs. RICH. He was. Jack Ruby is very well known in Dallas. A little too -well known. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. RICH. Just a personal opinion. I believe—now, this is not a fact, -this is just talk, this is just personal opinion—I believe at the time -of the—am I naming it correctly—Oswald assassination, it was claimed -that Ruby got in there pretending to be a reporter. Am I correct that -that was in the printed page? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what comment have you got to make to that? - -Mrs. RICH. Anyone that made that statement would be either a damn liar -or a damn fool. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why? - -Mrs. RICH. There is no possible way that Jack Ruby could walk in Dallas -and be mistaken for a newspaper reporter, especially in the police -department. Not by any stretch of the imagination. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that your opinion? - -Mrs. RICH. That is not my personal opinion. That is a fact. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, on what do you base it? - -Mrs. RICH. Ye gods, I don’t think there is a cop in Dallas that doesn’t -know Jack Ruby. He practically lived at that station. They lived in his -place. Even the lowest patrolman on the beat. He is a real fanatic on -that, anyway. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say even the lowest patrolman on the beat, what do -you mean? - -Mrs. RICH. Everybody from the patrolmen on the beat in uniform to, I -guess everybody with the exception of Captain Fritz, used to come in -there, knew him personally. He used to practically live at the station. -I am not saying that Captain Fritz didn’t know him. I am saying he was -never—I have never seen him in the Carousel. He has always been, I -think, a little too far above things for that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have seen other high-ranking officers there? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please? - -Mrs. RICH. I would if I could. I would be only too glad to. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don’t know? - -Mrs. RICH. I cannot recall names, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were high-ranking officers? - -Mrs. RICH. At that time I knew them. Two years from now, if somebody -asked me your name, I would remember I knew you, I had seen you, but I -could not tell him your name. - -Mr. HUBERT. You remember Captain Fritz’ name. - -Mrs. RICH. Everybody remembers Captain Fritz. Will Fritz is quite a -famous man. And I would say he is of the highest integrity. Probably -the only one I know of on the police department that is. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned in one interview you had with the -FBI that you had some information that a contact in regard to this -gunrunning business was to be made at the Hotel Nueva Gallina in the -city of Guadalajara, Mexico. Is that correct? - -Mrs. RICH. To the best of my knowledge; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get the information from? - -Mrs. RICH. In the conversation at the second or third meeting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention that to the FBI people in any of your -interviews prior to January? - -Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I never talked about it prior to the time -I went there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You spoke to the FBI in November and again in December. - -Mrs. RICH. Let’s put it this way. When you say prior to me going to the -FBI—I went to the FBI the first time I believe in Oakland. And I do not -recall whether or not I told them the first time or the second time -about that. Whichever time I told them, I don’t recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a fact, is it not, that you contacted the FBI -in Brookline, Mass., sometime in January to tell them that you had been -going through some things of yours and had additional information. - -Mrs. RICH. I believe it was in January. It was in Boston, by the way. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was in Boston? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. I believe it was Mr. Stoddard I talked to. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the additional information? - -Mrs. RICH. Right now I do not even remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that you found something among your things -which indicated that the contact during the gunrunning proposition was -supposed to be at this hotel in Guadalajara? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember what it was I turned up. I think it was -then—I know I turned up an address book with a telephone number in it. -I forgot whether that was here or in Oakland. And some cards. I know -what it was. It was on the back of a business card. That’s right. It -was on the back of a business card I turned that up. Yes; it was when I -called them—because I had gone through my strongbox after my stuff had -got here. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the information that you had gotten concerning the -contact point as being in this hotel in Guadalajara, that information -was obtained by you at one of the meetings that you have just described. - -Mrs. RICH. It was obtained there; yes. And if I remember, it had eluded -me when I first talked to them. And if I am not mistaken—I should have -brought it—I have it on the back of a business card at home, that -I turned up among some of my old business cards from Dallas in an -envelope. Now, whether or not I had recalled that and told them at the -first meeting or whether it was part of the additional information I -don’t remember. But it seems to me I turned that business card up and -did not remember that at the first talking with the FBI. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose name was on the front of the business card? - -Mrs. RICH. Some advertising agency. It was just some card I marked it -down on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the advertising business in 1961? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mrs. RICH. In Boston. I handled the National Automatic Merchandising -Association NAMA Week. - -Mr. HUBERT. What part of 1961? - -Mrs. RICH. The first week in April we had the Governor proclaim it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who said that the contact was going to be at this hotel in -Guadalajara? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know which one said it, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember at what meeting this was said? - -Mrs. RICH. I believe at the third—the second. I wouldn’t swear, but I -think the third. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was definitely not the first. - -Mrs. RICH. No; definitely not the first. Either the second or the third. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was at the second that you had raised your price, I -think, to $25,000. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was either that meeting or the third meeting that -you got the information about the contact point being in this hotel. - -Mrs. RICH. I am not sure which one it was, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you did not know where this house was -located in Dallas. - -Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t give you a street; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a general area of Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. I am sorry, sir, I wish I could. I would recognize the house -if I saw it. I cannot explain the human mind to you. Why is it that -sometimes if you don’t want to remember something, you can block things -off? It was something distasteful to me. I have perhaps not been a -model person but—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from this man Dave since you left Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Dave Cherry mean anything to you? - -Mrs. RICH. That’s it. I have been wracking my brain for that name. A -swell-looking fellow—crewcut, young, real college-looking type. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him? - -Mrs. RICH. A couple of months. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet him? - -Mrs. RICH. University Club. I believe I met him there. Just precisely -where I met him I don’t know. I think the University Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that prior to the time your husband came to Dallas? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember if I met him before or after, to be -truthful. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he was the man who made the contact. - -Mrs. RICH. Again, as I told the FBI, I will swear about 99 percent of -it that he was the one. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you went there—he was present at three meetings. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you knew him for 2 months prior to that. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct—about. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why should there be any doubt in your mind whatsoever? - -Mrs. RICH. Because somewhere another face keeps popping up. And don’t -ask me to go into it, because I could not if I tried. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you think it might not be Dave Cherry? - -Mrs. RICH. No; that it is. I am about 1 percent unsure. And I told the -FBI that. But that is the only face I can put with that. And I keep -putting Dave in that car and over there with us. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you advise your husband about being tailed recently? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; my husband is aware of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now—— - -Mrs. RICH. As I say, I don’t believe this has anything to do with this -at all. I told you merely because I was told to. Otherwise I would -never point it out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps we ought to get for the record what the names of -these Secret Service and FBI agents are. I think you mentioned their -last names. Do you know their first names? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I do not, sir. I would not know them if I saw them. - -Mr. HUBERT. They just spoke to you on the telephone? - -Mrs. RICH. That’s correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were FBI agents? - -Mrs. RICH. The first time when Mr. Fahety called me I was not sure, and -I would not answer any questions. So he said, “Call me back collect” -and I called the FBI back collect and it was true enough. Mr. Sweeny I -know it was, because he said he bought the tickets and had information -only the Secret Service would know, and that Mr. Milton would pick me -up subsequently, which he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned, I think, Mrs. Rich, that you were going to -use a boat to transport the guns to Cuba and the people back. - -Mrs. RICH. That’s correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this boat located? - -Mrs. RICH. From what I understood; in Miami. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a boat was it? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I was under the impression it might have been -an old picket boat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression? - -Mrs. RICH. Just the talk about it. I kind of got the impression that it -might have been one that had been—you know how the Coast Guard and the -Navy would sell them off sometime. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Dave Cherry been a friend of your husband’s? - -Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t believe so. I do not know who his friends were -when he was in Dallas. Eddie Brawner and Youngblood were. Eddie Brawner -could probably tell you more on this than I could; because my husband -talked to him and wanted to go on the boat with him. He and Eddie used -to race stock cars and stuff. And he told me—my husband claimed he -used to work for Herb Noble in Dallas. There is something else. And Al -Meadows. Al Meadows claimed he never saw him. He is another underworld -character—back there in prohibition. And they used to run an Oklahoma -gin. My husband claimed he was the only one alive who knew who gunned -Herb Noble down, and that he never told. And I don’t know if it is -true. Eddie Brawner was supposed to be in on this with him. I think he -told Eddie all about this, more than I knew. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your husband came to Dallas did Dave Cherry -meet him? - -Mrs. RICH. I could not really say, actually. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what was the nature of his friendship for Dave -Cherry? - -Mrs. RICH. How did he meet him? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. To what extent were they friendly? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. They would go off some time and I would not -even be there. Actually a lot of the stuff that transpired I could not -tell you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this before or after the meeting with the colonel? - -Mrs. RICH. He know Dave before the meeting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how had he met him? - -Mrs. RICH. Through me. And then again I am not clear whether I met -him—this is another point I am not clear on. I am not clear whether Bob -met Dave and introduced him to me or I introduced Dave to Bob. Here -again I am not clear. This may sound ridiculous, but I am not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your husband’s experience with boats? - -Mrs. RICH. Again, factually I cannot tell you. Supposedly he had been -in gun running before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the only experience you know of that he had with -boats? - -Mrs. RICH. He claimed he owned a big boat, he and Lee Dell owned a big -boat out in California. I guess he did because he had pictures of it -and him working around it. I still have the pictures. Now, Lee Dell, -there is another man could probably shed some light on this. But God -knows where he is. I never met the man. You see, I don’t know just -exactly what I was involved in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t know what your role was to be in this? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, you mean in this gun-running stuff to Cuba? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mrs. RICH. Just by sheer force of will and apparently because they -wanted my husband, I was going to go along. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were going to go along as a passenger? - -Mrs. RICH. I was going to help working the boat, because I had -knowledge of boats. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What knowledge did you have of the boats? - -Mrs. RICH. I was born and brought up in Biddeford, Maine. I have worked -on lobster boats a good many years off and on. My uncle owns them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any occasion on which you went to the -University Club and had some drinks and didn’t pay for them? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t think I ever paid for drinks at the University Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why? - -Mrs. RICH. Dave never took money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go alone? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. I believe so. Maybe, maybe not. - -Mr. HUBERT. But they would not take your money? - -Mrs. RICH. Dave never charged me. He always told me it was all right. -And I don’t drink anyway. All I drink is coke. Once in a great, great -while I will drink either a grasshopper or like last night I was all -keyed up so I had a brandy Alexander before I went to bed. But I might -have done this five times in 10 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an argument you had with your former and -deceased husband, Robert Perrin, in the University Club, which argument -was witnessed by Dave Cherry? - -Mrs. RICH. I never had an argument with my husband in the University -Club or anywhere else. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the manager of the University Club telling -you that neither you nor your husband could return to the club -thereafter? - -Mrs. RICH. I do not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever telephone Cherry advising him that you were -leaving for New Orleans and that you expected to work for the Playboy -Club there? - -Mrs. RICH. I believe I did. I might have, because that is what my plans -happened to have been. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact work for the Playboy Club? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. For how long? - -Mrs. RICH. 2 or 3 nights. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened? - -Mrs. RICH. I didn’t like it. For one thing, you were not allowed to -keep tips. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in New Orleans? - -Mrs. RICH. Part of the time down in one of the Sisters’ places, down -in the French Quarter, on St. Philip’s Street. And then 1713 Calhoun. -That is where my husband died. And various other places which I cannot -remember, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband do for a living while you were in New -Orleans? - -Mrs. RICH. The last time he had the best position I have ever seen him -hold. He was working for a construction company. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which one? - -Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. Dickie Bennett, Mr. McHane, those were two of his -bosses—Mr. White. - -Mr. HUBERT. What construction was he working on? - -Mrs. RICH. Well, he was a mechanic for the heavy equipment. He was just -getting a raise and everything when this happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the location where he was working? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes, out in Jeff Parish. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the building going up there? - -Mrs. RICH. No, they had this contract for the phone company. They would -lay all their roads, and the poles and stuff, and various things. He -would go out on jobs. I got him the job through Dickie Bennett. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not work at that time? - -Mrs. RICH. I—— - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean the time you were in New Orleans. - -Mrs. RICH. I would rather not answer that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This—— - -Mrs. RICH. I will answer to this extent. For one thing, I dealt black -jack. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Rich, you mentioned the name of a man by the name of -Brawner. Now, did Mr. Brawner ever attend any of these meetings with -the colonel? - -Mrs. RICH. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only knowledge of this would be what your husband -might have told him. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What does Mr. Brawner do for a living? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t know what Eddie does—odd jobs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man is he? - -Mrs. RICH. Middle age—40, maybe. Does a lot of work with kids in these -go carts—soap box derbies and stuff. I guess they used to be in the -carnival together. As I say, everything I say, I don’t know how much -truth there is in it from what my husband told me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does Mr. Brawner live? - -Mrs. RICH. Grand Prairie. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where in Grand Prairie? - -Mrs. RICH. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he married? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have a family? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; he does. I believe his wife’s name is Mary. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many children does he have? - -Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember—quite a few—three or four. - -I would like one thing known. Until the time I met my husband and since -he died I have done nothing that I would be ashamed of, nothing I would -not do in public. Now that I am married to Mr. Rich I do not want any -recriminations due to the fact of the period of time I was married to -my husband. My husband—the first year and a half of our marriage was -beautiful. Then my husband turned me out. Don’t ask me why I didn’t -leave him. Everyone else asked me that. It is not easy being something -that is against everything that you believe in or stand for 2 years. -There were periods—I told the FBI this, and I might as well state it -right here. I was a prostitute—call it what you may—call girl, madam. -It still boils down to the same damn thing. When I worked, he worked. -When I quit, he quit. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Robert Perrin? - -Mrs. RICH. I am talking about Robert Perrin. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you marry Mr. Perrin? - -Mrs. RICH. July of—August of 1960, I believe—1961. I have forgotten. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to that time you had never been in any trouble with -the police? - -Mrs. RICH. No; except when I was 16, I was driving a car with no -license and had been taking some medicine and I hit a pole with it, and -lied to my uncle, who was the judge, and he made me pay a fine. He made -me spend overnight in our own little jail in our own little town to -teach me a lesson, and it did. He said if I had not lied, it would have -been all right. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the significance of your remark that when you -worked he worked, and when you did not work—— - -Mrs. RICH. As long as I was hustling he would work, and as long as I -wasn’t hustling he would not work. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean he was—— - -Mrs. RICH. My husband turned me out. That is what it means. - -Mr. HUBERT. Turned you out of the house? - -Mrs. RICH. This is an expression used in that particular trade. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is—— - -Mrs. RICH. He taught me how to be a prostitute, obtained dates for me, -et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I married into a very respectable -family. I come from a respectable family. And I came here today all -set on any question such as this to take the fifth amendment, or just -refuse to answer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, ma’am, let the record show that a moment ago, when -you said you would rather not go into this, you were not pressed into -going into it, but you said you wished to do so, is that correct? - -Mrs. RICH. That is not correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the situation? - -Mrs. RICH. Why did I do it? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; why did you tell us about this? - -Mrs. RICH. I am sorry. Change my statement from that is not correct to -that is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say a moment ago—let me get this clear—when you -said that is a matter you did not want to go into, you will agree with -me, will you not, that I did not pursue the matter, but that you then -said “I might as well tell you” and proceeded to do so. - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. Why did I do so? - -Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am; I am not asking you why. - -Mrs. RICH. All right, that’s fine. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think we do have the date of your husband’s death. - -Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962, city of New Orleans. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say there was an autopsy made? - -Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was. He had been dead 2 days before I knew it. I -wasn’t there. I think all I felt was a great sense of relief. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mrs. Rich, is it not a fact that there has been no -off-the-record conversation between us at all? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct? - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it not a fact that all that has occurred between you and -me in this interview, with Mr. Griffin, is all on the record? - -Mrs. RICH. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you, Mrs. Rich. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY - -The testimony of Earl Ruby was taken at 9 a.m., on June 3, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and -Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Earl Ruby. - -My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the Advisory Staff of the -General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of -President Kennedy. - -Under the provisions of the Presidential Executive Order 11130, -dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, -and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission, in -conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have -been authorized by the Commission to take a sworn deposition from you. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of the inquiry today is -to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and about -any possible relationship of Jack Ruby with that death, and any other -pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. - -Now, Mr. Ruby, I think you appear here today by virtue of a letter -addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the staff of -the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is true. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that received? - -Mr. RUBY. I received that Monday when I returned home from work about 7 -p.m., it was waiting for me. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was June 1? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of it? - -Mr. RUBY. That it was mailed? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. It was mailed May 28. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there is any problem about it, but just -to make certain, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are -entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this -deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the -3-day notice if he wishes. I think that there has actually been a 3-day -notice under the rules of the Commission since the 3 days commence to -run from the time of the mailing of the document, but in this case, as -I said, the rules provide that you can waive the 3-day written notice, -and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive it and go on with -your testimony today. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, and raise your right hand, so I may -administer the oath. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this -matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, -so help you God? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir? - -Mr. RUBY. Earl R. Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Forty-nine. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are married? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who are you married to? What was the maiden name of the -lady you married? - -Mr. RUBY. Margie Greene. - -Mr. HUBERT. And have you been married only once? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I was married twice. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of your first wife? - -Mr. RUBY. Mildred Brownstein. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry her, and where? - -Mr. RUBY. I married her in Chicago in 1945. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved? - -Mr. RUBY. Through divorce. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was the divorce obtained? - -Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have been married, then, twice only? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And do you have any children? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; three. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any from the first marriage? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. For the record, would you state the names of the children -and their ages? - -Mr. RUBY. Robert, 15 years of age; Denise, 13 years of age; and Joyce, -10 years of age. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you presently reside? - -Mr. RUBY. 29925 Woodland Drive, Southfield, Mich. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is Southfield near Detroit? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is a suburb, northwest suburb of Detroit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, I wish to get some general background concerning -you, starting off with where you were born and where you spent the -early years of your life. Will you tell us, please? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. I was born in Chicago on April 16, 1915, and I -lived on what is known as the east side of Chicago, and went to school -in that area for a few years, and then my mother and father became -separated, and I was sent to a foster home, and then I also was sent -to live on a farm for a year, a little more than a year. Then I came -back and lived in another foster home for awhile. Then we sort of, -the family sort of, got together and I moved back with my mother and -the rest of the family other than my father, and then we more or less -lived together until I enlisted in the Service in 1942, and then my -mother passed away in 1944, and then I became married in 1945. Is that -skipping too much, do you think? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to go back a bit and get some dates on -some of the things you have said there. For example, when did your -father and mother separate so that home was broken? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t remember, it is so far. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old were you, roughly? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t even know, 8, 7, 8, 9. I don’t even remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it would have been around the -early 1920’s, 1922, 1923, 1924, somewhere along in there? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. I don’t remember those dates at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were the foster homes? Were they sort of orphanages? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or homes. - -Mr. RUBY. Private homes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Private homes? - -Mr. RUBY. Private homes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you separated from your brothers and sisters when you -went to the foster home, or did they go to the same foster home? - -Mr. RUBY. On the farm I was with my brother Sam, and Jack was in -another farm some distance away from us. In the foster home Sam and I -were together again, I think, just Sam and I. Then in another foster -home, I think Jack was with us. The three of us were in one foster home -together. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you said that you lived at what was called the east -side in Chicago. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; it was like the ghetto of Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to get what sort of a neighborhood is that? What -sort of a district was it? - -Mr. RUBY. It was the Maxwell Street district of Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe that a bit? - -Mr. RUBY. It is where they have the pushcarts on the street. I don’t -know a word that would describe that, but you know, have all their -wares displayed right on the street and right on the sidewalk. It is -several blocks long. - -Mr. HUBERT. The foster homes were not in that neighborhood, were they? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were the farms? - -Mr. RUBY. The farm that I was on was in Woodstock, Ill. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work were you doing on the farm? - -Mr. RUBY. We helped the farmer, you know, with regular farm chores. -We fed the cows and the horses and took the cows to the pasture and -brought them back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school during all that time? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Even when you were on the farm? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that what is your educational background? - -Mr. RUBY. I finished high school. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which one? - -Mr. RUBY. Crane High School in Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other formal education in the sense of -special training in any field? - -Mr. RUBY. I would say no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us something of the background and early life -of your brother Jack, say, from the time 1925 forward, 1930, along in -there? I think he is a couple of years older than you. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. He is about 3 years older than I am. Well, I can tell -you that he always seemed to be in fights in one manner or another that -I can remember. He was like the bodyguard of the family, you might say, -because in those years we lived a half block from Roosevelt Road, and -on the other side of the road was the Italian section, and that was -called, we used to call it Dago Town, and the Jews couldn’t go near -that street. And my sisters, well, if they weren’t escorted to the -streetcars then and nobody arranged to meet them at the streetcar when -they returned from work, they would be insulted and abused. So that -was, more or less, Jack’s job, if I recall, to meet them there. - -He always had to go and meet them at the streetcar when they were -returning from work. In the morning I don’t think it was so bad because -so many people were going to the streetcar. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old was Jack at that time that you are describing? I -gather it would have been after the family was brought together again. - -Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. This goes back, it must have been in the -twenties. Maybe he was 15 years old or so. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did the family come back together again after having -been separated? - -Mr. RUBY. Maybe 1928 or 1929. I am not sure of these dates, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked is because I was under the impression -that after your father left, there was a breakup of the family, and -then you were not living in this section of Chicago. - -Mr. RUBY. No. We moved west on Sacramento Boulevard. That is when I -remember coming back to the family. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at are these instances that Jack had to -act as bodyguard against the Italian element, as you put it. That was -not when you were living in foster homes, was it? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor was it when you were living on the farm? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. That was in Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. So it was either prior to the breakup of the family or -afterwards? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. After the reconciliation, or was it both? - -Mr. RUBY. I would say that I remember it was prior. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was just a teenager then? - -Mr. RUBY. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. When the family was brought together again, which was -around 1928, where did the family live then? - -Mr. RUBY. On Sacramento Boulevard in Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is a different thing from the so-called east side? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is further west. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t have any such difficulties at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; we did, because even though we were west we were still -borderlining the Italian element, but we were further west. But it was -an improvement as to the other section. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, the family remained more or less as a unit, I gather -it is your testimony, until the war came. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. Before the war Jack lived in San Francisco for -awhile. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did he live there, do you know? - -Mr. RUBY. It would be a few years. I don’t know exactly. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think he went there with your sister. - -Mr. RUBY. That is right, sir; and he was working for a newspaper -selling subscriptions. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why they went out to the west coast? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was just Eva and Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had the other girls married by then? - -Mr. RUBY. I think one sister was married. I think my sister Ann was -married by then. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever, yourself, been convicted of any felony? - -Mr. RUBY. No; never. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business dealings at all with Jack prior -to 1933, that is to say, prior to the time you moved to the west coast? - -Mr. RUBY. Business dealings? No; because I was going to school then. I -was in grammar school and high school. - -Mr. HUBERT. In 1933 actually you were 18. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was in high school. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about your business associations with Jack after his -return from the west coast, until you went into the service? Did you -have any? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. We worked together for, oh, I think maybe a year. He -and another fellow, I think his name is Harry Epstein, organized the -Spartan Novelty Co., which has been out of business for many years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a corporation? - -Mr. RUBY. No; it was just a small company, very. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you a part of it then, or did you become a part of it? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I was only an employee. I worked with them. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the business of that company? - -Mr. RUBY. It was selling cedar chests with candy and punchcards. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that business last? - -Mr. RUBY. Only until, I worked with them only until the war broke out, -because I came back. I was working with them—right after the war broke -out December 7, then February—some time in February—I enlisted in the -Seabees of the Navy, and then I went into the service, and when I -came out of the service, my other three brothers were still in, and I -started up the same type of business, cedar chests with candy. - -Mr. HUBERT. This Spartan Novelty Co. was really prior to the war then? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it lasted how many years? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I only worked for them about a year. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is Epstein still living? - -Mr. RUBY. Still living? Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in? - -Mr. RUBY. He sells, manufactures and sells—what would you call that—I -think onyx desk sets. I did have business dealings then. Do you want me -to go on now? - -Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to ask you about a trip that I think you took to -Seattle in 1941. Do you remember that? - -Mr. RUBY. Seattle? - -Mr. HUBERT. Washington; yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Seattle in 1941. In 1942 in the service, 1942. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did go to Seattle? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, because I went through the Seabees. I was in the -Seabees, and we shoved off from Bremerton, Wash., which, as you know, -is right across the bay from Seattle. That is the only time I remember -being there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the name of Daniel Sloan? - -Mr. RUBY. I know the Sloan family in Chicago, but I don’t know if his -name is Daniel. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any Sloan family, and particularly a Daniel -Sloan, in Seattle? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that you did not visit him prior to -the war at all? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or had you ever been to Seattle prior to the war? - -Mr. RUBY. No. Only with the Seabees when we stayed at Camp—I can’t -remember—I think it is Lewis, Fort Lewis there. We stayed with the Army -because they had no facilities, and we then went across to Bremerton -and we got on a ship there and left from there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to? - -Mr. RUBY. The Aleutian Islands. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service? - -Mr. RUBY. In the service? About 2 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. And were you honorably discharged? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You left the service prior to the end of the war, then? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain how that came about? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I had some trouble with a varicocele in my testicles. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure it is not varicose? - -Mr. RUBY. No, they call it varicocele. It is a little different. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a medical discharge? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think it is called a medical. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any disability of such a nature that you received -disability pay? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, 10 percent. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you still do? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. Anyhow, how this took place, they were going to operate, -and they prepared me for the operation the night before. You know, they -shaved me and all that, and give me the pill, the sleeping pill or -whatever it was, and then the next morning I got up and I was dopey, of -course, and I felt—and there was no operation—no pain, and I couldn’t -understand it, and so when I was able enough to talk coherently I -called the nurse and asked her what happened. She says they changed -their mind, and they were going to discharge me from the service -because they didn’t think I would be of much use to them after the -operation. I think that was the reason, or they decided that. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you left the service in 1944? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then? - -Mr. RUBY. Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you live with? - -Mr. RUBY. The family. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do? - -Mr. RUBY. And I started up this cedar chest business again. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a trade name then? - -Mr. RUBY. I called it Earl Products Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any kind of a punchboard operation? - -Mr. RUBY. No; that was before. That was the Spartan Novelty. Mine was -just selling—no, I sold some punchboards, that is right. I sold some -punchboards with my operation for about a year. - -Mr. HUBERT. These were candy punchboards, were they? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where you might win some candy, is that correct, if you -punched the right number? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they could win a box of candy or win a pen set, I think -it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. What area did you operate in as to the Earl Products Co.? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I operated it through Earl Mail, more or less, through -advertising in the Billboard Magazine, and I shipped in, it wasn’t a -large operation, but I shipped out of State all the way across the -country. I don’t remember the States, but I did ship quite a few States -over the years. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were alone at the time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was by myself then. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did your brothers ultimately join you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; as my brothers came out of the service, I took them in -and gave them a piece of the business. First Sam came out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they invest? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or they just came in? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. They didn’t put up any money? - -Mr. RUBY. When Sam came out, I gave him half interest. Then when my -oldest brother came out—— - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. No; Hyman. And then I took him in. Then when Jack came out, -then I took him in. So we were all together for not too long because it -just wasn’t enough for all of us. - -Mr. HUBERT. You all were sharing the profits? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Equally? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a salary or commission basis? - -Mr. RUBY. I think we were sharing that equally. I am quite sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened to the company? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, then my brother Hyman left us, and then there was Jack, -Sam, and myself left. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did Hyman leave for? What was the reason for his -leaving? - -Mr. RUBY. There just wasn’t enough money, and you know when there is -not enough money we have a few arguments in the family, so he decided -to leave. - -Mr. HUBERT. What business did he go into? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember. I think he went himself in some company. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then there were three of you. What happened then? - -Mr. RUBY. Then my sister Eva had been in Dallas for, oh, a few years, -and she had been writing to Jack and telling him how good it was down -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing, do you recall? - -Mr. RUBY. Running a nightclub. I think it was called the Silver Spur. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then? - -Mr. RUBY. So Jack and Sam had an argument, and so we just couldn’t get -along, so we decided to buy Jack out. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you and Sam decided to do that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes, yes; and we then bought him out. I think we paid -him something like $14,000 or $15,000, 14,000 and some hundred dollars, -and he left for Dallas, and he remained there until the incident -happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. When he had the argument with Sam which led to his leaving -the Earl Products Co., did he intend then to go to Dallas? Was that one -of the causes for his leaving? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know what was in his mind. I don’t remember. I just -don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was he paid? - -Mr. RUBY. We paid him a lump sum, about $14,000 or $15,000, so when he -left he had quite a bit of money. - -Mr. HUBERT. In cash? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he had quite a bit of money. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he left for Dallas shortly thereafter? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; very shortly thereafter he left. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would have been what year, sir; about? - -Mr. RUBY. I think 1947; 1947. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep in contact with him? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; we corresponded, not too often. We came up every few -years. Of course, he came up for my mother’s funeral in 1944. Then he -came up for my dad’s funeral. - -Mr. HUBERT. He came from the service for your mother’s funeral, I -suppose? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. At that time he was in the service. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your father died in what year? - -Mr. RUBY. 1960. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you and your brother Sam changed -your name from Rubenstein to Ruby by a court proceeding for that -purpose? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a coordinated decision between you and Sam? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You know, do you not, that Jack did the same thing about -the same time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that coordinated with him, too? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. In our conversations in telling him -that we were doing it, maybe he decided to do it, but I don’t know if -it had any bearing at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for the change of name? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, first, everybody called me Ruby, even in the service, -and wherever I went they called me Ruby, so that was one of the reasons -to change it. - -Mr. HUBERT. After Jack left did you and Sam continue in business? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. For how long? - -Mr. RUBY. For possibly 8 or 9 years, anyhow. - -Mr. HUBERT. You still lived in Chicago at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the cause of the breakup of the Earl -Products Co. which then consisted of you and Sam only, and of Sam’s -removal to Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn’t like—he was supposed to handle the shop and -I was handling the office and the advertising, and by this time, when -I say “shop” you must understand we were now in the manufacturing -business. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were you manufacturing? - -Mr. RUBY. We were manufacturing aluminum salt and pepper shakers, key -chains, bottle openers, screw drivers, small hammers. - -Mr. HUBERT. How large an operation was that? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I think our maximum sales there reached about a quarter -of a million dollars. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have at the maximum? - -Mr. RUBY. Its maximum we had there was probably 40 at any given time. -Anyhow, he was supposed to run the shop and I was supposed to run the -office, and I didn’t think he was taking care of the shop the way he -should, and I told him several times, and finally he says, “Well, if -you can do better, you can take care of that yourself,” and he didn’t -report to work for almost a year. - -In the meantime, I was giving him his check every week. So, finally I -decided after waiting that long that the only thing to do was dissolve -the partnership and buy him out. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much did you pay him when you bought him out? - -Mr. RUBY. I paid him a total of about $30,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say you actually paid him a weekly salary check? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Although he didn’t do any work at all? - -Mr. RUBY. That is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing as a matter of fact during that year? - -Mr. RUBY. Nothing. He was just—just nothing. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t even see him do you mean? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t see him for about almost a year. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you made no effort to correct that situation? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I talked and members of the family talked to him, -and finally in order to dissolve it, I even called Jack and had him -come up from Dallas to see if he could, you know, make peace in the -family, and he just couldn’t do it. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would have been around 1954 or 1955? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; right in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then when you bought out Jack, did you continue to operate -the Earl Products Co. alone? - -Mr. RUBY. You mean Sam? - -Mr. HUBERT. Sam I mean; yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I operated until 1959. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened to the company? - -Mr. RUBY. Then I sold it. - -Mr. HUBERT. To whom? - -Mr. RUBY. To Herschel Oliff, and the reason I sold it was I was -manufacturing a line of novelties, and the Japan imports were just -cutting down my business and I could see the handwriting on the wall, -so I decided I had better get out while I can, which I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then what did you do? - -Mr. RUBY. Then I didn’t work for, oh, 6 or 8 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were living off of the profits? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he was paying me. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean the purchaser, Mr. Oliff, was paying you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he gave me so much down and so much a week so I was -able to get along. Anyhow, at that time I became depressed and I was -thinking of doing away with myself, so I went over to the veterans -hospital in Chicago and talked to them over there, and they suggested I -come in there, which I did, and I stayed a few weeks. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were hospitalized? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; they hospitalized me in the psychopathic ward there, and -I stayed there a week or two, and then I couldn’t see—there were so -many of us and they couldn’t, at least I didn’t think they were helping -me, so I left one day. I just up and walked out; but then I got sick -again. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you became depressed again? - -Mr. RUBY. I became depressed again. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a few days. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you went back? - -Mr. RUBY. So I went back again. Then I decided well, the only way I can -help myself, I mean I can do myself any good, is get out of this place -and get a job. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you married then? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was to your first wife then? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your second wife? - -Mr. RUBY. Second wife, and I said I’ve got my family you know, I had -better take care of them. The only thing that will help me, at least -that was my thinking, is to go out and get a job and maybe that is what -I need, you know, because I felt that I wouldn’t be able to hold a job -or something. Anyhow those were my thoughts. So, I went out and got a -job for Worldwide Music in Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that work? - -Mr. RUBY. They sell and place juke boxes. - -The Seeberg Agency and the Rockola Distributors, a pretty big company, -nice people, and I worked there about a year. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific job? - -Mr. RUBY. I was, I would say assistant manager. I supervised the other -men and the servicemen. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t actually make the contacts with the taverns? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, I made some of those; yes, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, the machines were solely music machines? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. No slot machines? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. No slot machines. This is one of the better rated -companies in this field, very nice people. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay? - -Mr. RUBY. I stayed with them about a year. Then my best friend’s -brother, my best friend’s name is Mike Nemzin, his brother’s name is -George Marcus, that is his name legally. - -Mr. HUBERT. They have different names but the fact is they are brothers? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. That is why I wanted to mention that. He -owned—— - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say “he” who do you mean? - -Mr. RUBY. George Marcus; I am now speaking of. - -Mr. HUBERT. The brother of your best friend? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was instrumental in my getting the other -job for Worldwide Music because he knew one of the—he was in the dry -cleaning business, George Marcus has today one plant in Marion, Ind. -and one plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., and has a brother-in-law running -each one. And we had been friends for about 25 or 30 years, and he -approached me with the idea of going into business with him in another -cleaning plant if we could locate a good one. You know, buy a going -business, of course, and I was very much interested. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; Marcus I am speaking of. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your best friend was his brother? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you were friendly with him for 25 years? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; yes. In fact, he originally helped me get started -when I first came out of service. I had no money to speak of. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus? - -Mr. RUBY. Marcus, and he lent me $500, I think, to get started. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, go on and tell us what happened? - -Mr. RUBY. And Marcus and I talked over the possibility of going into -the cleaning business together, and he being so successful, I was very -happy that he even, you know, came to me and was interested in my -running the plant, because he is more or less a silent partner. - -So, sure enough, we checked out a few plants and then we happened to -hear of this plant in Detroit, Cobo Cleaners, that is the plant. It -was originally owned by the mayor of Detroit. And we heard about this -plant and we went to Detroit, checked that out and checked out the -possibilities, and we decided it was a pretty good deal. And so we -bought that as equal partners. And that was in 1961, October of 1961. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you pay for it? - -Mr. RUBY. We paid for it, for the real estate and the business, -$120,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you each put up half? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. Of course, we only paid so much down, you know. We -didn’t pay the full price, of course. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is the business you are in now? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you run the operation? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he is more or less silent. He lives in Glenview, -Ill., a suburb of Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. And as I understand it, he owns these other plants that you -mentioned? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And runs them through—— - -Mr. RUBY. The brother-in-laws. But he gave the brother-in-laws 35 -percent of each one. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think for the record perhaps we had better state the -names of those other companies and the cities and the names of the -brothers-in-law. - -Mr. RUBY. OK. The name of the plant that George Marcus and his -brother-in-law owns in Marion, Ind., is called Modern Laundry and Dry -Cleaners, and his brother-in-law’s name there is Harry Marks. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that his sister’s husband? - -Mr. RUBY. Husband, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. RUBY. And the name of the plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., is called -the American Laundry and Dry Cleaners, and the brother-in-law there who -is married to George Marcus’ sister is Elwood Jacobs. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know those people, the two brothers-in-law? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, you know, being close to my best friend for so many -years, I was always close to the family as a whole. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you have no interest in those plants? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have a 50-percent interest in the Cobo plant? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did we have some indication that there was a company or -something, sort of & business enterprise called the Earl Ruby Co? Will -you tell us about that? - -Mr. RUBY. When I sold the Earl Products Co., I sold the whole Earl -Products Co. and he was supposed to pay me—he gave me so much money -down, about $20,000 down, I think—and he was supposed to pay me the -balance out so much a year. - -Well, after he paid so much, he paid me for about a year or so, he said -he can’t pay me any more money, he wants to make a new deal on the -balance of the money that he owed me. So we made a deal that he would -only give me $10,000 more. He owed me about $30,000 or so. We settled -for $10,000 in cash plus I would take over the camera manufacturing. -We had a little camera we manufactured. He would give me the tools and -dies of that business, and also the tools and dies to make a little -nameplate that kids fasten on the back of their bicycles. So when -I took that over, I had to have a company name to run it, and so I -decided to call that Earl Ruby Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any associates in that company? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. And I since, last year I had to close that up. It was -just not doing any—— - -Mr. HUBERT. That operation continued after you left Chicago? - -Mr. RUBY. When I sold it to Oliff, you mean? Oh, yes; for awhile. - -Mr. HUBERT. No, no; I mean the Earl Ruby Co? - -Mr. RUBY. No. When I left Chicago, there was no Earl Ruby Co. It only -became after he decided he couldn’t pay me the rest of the money, then -I had to start all over again. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were in Detroit at the time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. I couldn’t use Earl Products because he owned that name. -I sold him the name. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the operation of the Earl Ruby Co. manufacturing the -cameras and the bicycle plates? - -Mr. RUBY. I moved it to Detroit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you moved it to Detroit? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you operated then out of Detroit? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, but—— - -Mr. HUBERT. So you were operating at that time two businesses? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. The cleaning and the—— - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. Well, the other business I don’t think in all the time -I had it, I don’t think I did $10,000 worth of business in the 2 years -that I tried to run it. It just fizzled out and now there is nothing. - -Mr. HUBERT. It folded when? - -Mr. RUBY. I folded it at the end of the year. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which year? - -Mr. RUBY. At the end of 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had run it about 2 years? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, about 2 years, I would say, and there was just no more -sales. I tried to dispose of it or sell it, but I couldn’t even get a -buyer, so I still own the tools and dies but there are no sales. - -Mr. HUBERT. Those are just put in a warehouse, the tools and dies? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Hollebrandt? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is he? - -Mr. RUBY. He is the supervisor of our plant. Is that the one you mean? - -Mr. HUBERT. I believe so. What is his first name? - -Mr. RUBY. Abram. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is he the supervisor of Cobo? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did he become so? - -Mr. RUBY. About a year ago, just about a year ago, a little over a year -ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did this relationship come about? Did you know him -before? - -Mr. RUBY. No. I had never heard of him before. When we came to Cobo -Cleaners, we had a supervisor by the name of Charlie Comp, and then -after my being there awhile, I could see that one of the reasons Cobo -wanted to sell out was the supervisor. He just wasn’t running the -plant efficiently. And so I talked to my partner about replacing him -and we finally decided to replace him, and we started looking for a -replacement. And I mentioned it to everyone I knew, and in the cleaning -industry there is different types of cleaning processes, mostly -concerned with the type of soap you use, and we were using, ours is -what you call a solvent plant, and we were using—I can’t think of the -name of the soap. Anyhow, a special soap. I just can’t think of the -trade name. - -And the salesman or distributor in our area for this soap is Vernon -Brooks, and I talked to him about getting—asked him if he knew a good -supervisor, and he said he would let me know. And then in a week or -whatever time passed, he called me and says, “Yes, I have a good man in -Rochester, New York.” And, “I think he might be interested.” - -So I contacted him and we had him come to Detroit so we could talk to -him and interview him, and then we wanted to see what type of a plant -he was running there, so Marcus, my partner, and I flew to Rochester -one day and Hollebrandt showed us through the plant he was running, and -we liked him. You know, he is a pretty nice fellow. And he seemed to -know his stuff. So we hired him. That is how we got to know him. Other -than that, I had never seen or heard of him before. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long was it between the time that you first contacted -Hollebrandt and the time that he actually became the supervisor? What -period of time elapsed? - -Mr. RUBY. I would say a couple of months anyhow. It took a couple of -months. Yes, it took a few months. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Oscar Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oscar Robinson? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person who lives at South Haven, Mich., -particularly at an address 58 Lakeshore Drive? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, I know those people. - -Mr. HUBERT. In South Haven, Mich.? - -Mr. RUBY. I know their name is Ruby. I didn’t know his last name. My -in-laws own the cottage next door to them, 56 Lakeshore Drive, and so -I used to go up there on weekends, but I didn’t know his last name was -Oscar. - -Mr. HUBERT. No, I didn’t say his last name is Oscar. I think it is -either Ruby or Robinson. What did you know his last name to be? - -Mr. RUBY. Ruby, the same as mine. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he is not related to you? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he had a cottage which is next door to—— - -Mr. RUBY. My in-laws. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your wife’s—— - -Mr. RUBY. Family. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Harry C. Futterman? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, that is my wife’s brother-in-law. He is married to my -wife’s sister. - -Mr. HUBERT. What does he do for a living? - -Mr. RUBY. He worked for the post office until he retired a few years -ago, and now he works for a brother-in-law of his who is in the lumber -business. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live? - -Mr. RUBY. He lives at 7209 Northeast Prairie, in Lincolnwood, Ill. - -Mr. HUBERT. Lincoln? - -Mr. RUBY. Wood. - -Mr. HUBERT. Lincolnwood? - -Mr. RUBY. A suburb of Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Colley Sullivan? - -Mr. RUBY. Colley Sullivan? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RUBY. No, no, it doesn’t register at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Dominick or Dominic Scorta -or Siorta? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Anesi Umberto? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think that is the one. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him. - -Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I did business with—no, that is another -name. I know a fellow by the name of Mario Anesi. - -Mr. HUBERT. And who is he? - -Mr. RUBY. He is the fellow that used to make all our tools and dies in -Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tools and dies for the Earl Products? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, I thought that is who you were talking about. Anesi -Umberto, no, I don’t know him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Mario Umberto? - -Mr. RUBY. Maybe that is the same fellow. I know him by Mario Anesi. - -Mr. HUBERT. A-n-e-s-i? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how you spell his name. I am not even sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen or had any contact with this gentleman in the -last year or so? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was just here, he was just in Detroit for -the tool convention or whatever they call them, and he called me just -to say hello, because he has tools and dies of mine in his place yet, -old things, you know. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was just in the last few weeks, I gather. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. That was about a month ago. That is all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that contact with him, when was the next previous -contact? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he makes the camera shutters, camera shutter parts for -me, and I saw him in Chicago a little more than a year ago. I stopped -in to discuss changing—it is probably a year-and-a-half ago—changing -the die for one of the parts. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any telephone conversations with him in that -interval, during that period? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. What would it have been about? - -Mr. RUBY. Only about tools and dies. In fact, I tried to sell him the -tools and dies for the nameplate. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that? - -Mr. RUBY. Right after I took it over from Mr. Oliff. - -Mr. HUBERT. It would have been about a little over 2 years ago? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and then I would have to talk to him once in awhile -about ordering the parts, if I were in Chicago I would call him and -tell him what I need or something like that. But I know him as Mario -Anesi. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you do know as far as your memory serves you, either a -person called Anesi Umberto or a person called Mario Umberto? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone whose last name is Umberto, -U-m-b-e-r-t-o? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone by the name of Kirk Bibul? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about a person by the name of Elliott Schwartz? - -Mr. RUBY. Elliott Schwartz, he is married to another sister of my wife. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live? - -Mr. RUBY. New York. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have occasion to contact him? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I see him, he comes in for events, marriages, bar -mitzvahs and all that stuff. In fact, I wanted to call him last night -because I am so close. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is a social relationship, social and family? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. No business relationship? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I was going to have him manufacture the nameplates -for me, when I couldn’t sell them to Mario Anesi, he told me business -was bad up in New York, so I sent the tools and dies there, but we -never used them, never got any sales, so the tools and dies for the -nameplates are just there not being used at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Edward A. Cobo was the owner of the Cobo Cleaners -prior to the time you bought it out? - -Mr. RUBY. The junior, I bought it from the junior, his mother and his -sister. I think Cobo himself had passed away several years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was mayor. - -Mr. RUBY. His brother, Al Cobo, was the mayor, but Al and Edward Cobo -owned Cobo Cleaners. The mayor owns half of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. But when you bought it, the mayor had died? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And his interest had passed to his family, I take it? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; to probably, I don’t know but I think it probably passed -to his brother and then his brother passed away and then the interest -went to the brother’s wife and son and daughter, and that is who we -bought it from. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Buddy Heard? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with a company called the Anran -Tool and Manufacturing Co.? - -Mr. RUBY. Are you sure it is Anran and not Anson? - -Mr. HUBERT. Maybe it is Anson. - -Mr. RUBY. That is owned by Mario Anesi and his brother. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that any contacts you would have had with that company -was really what you were talking about a little while ago? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. They made all the parts for us and tools -and dies for, oh, 10 years or more. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know if you stated what Mario Anesi’s brother’s -name was. - -Mr. RUBY. One’s name is Burt, that is how I know him by, Burt, and he -has another brother. I don’t even know his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are they all in this company? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; now, Burt could possibly be Umberto, I don’t know, -because Burt is an unusual name for Italian people. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that your contacts in the last 2 -years say with the Anesi’s or the Anson Tool and Manufacturing Company -have been as you have stated in regard to the dies and the manufacture -of shutters and so on? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.? Have you had any -contact with that company? - -Mr. RUBY. Triangle? What do they make? - -I once had a Triangle many years ago that made—I think it is -Triangle—made a set of cutting dies for me. I don’t know if it is the -same company. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located, do you know? - -Mr. RUBY. In Chicago, I think. But I had very little—if I remember, it -was one order. But there are so many Triangles. I even think many years -ago I bought some cartons from a Triangle Carton Company, but you are -saying manufacturing company. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. The Triangle Manufacturing Co. that I am thinking of is in -Oshkosh, Wis. - -Mr. RUBY. It don’t sound familiar at all. Does it say what they -make—because in the years we were manufacturing we used to buy parts -and things from all over the country. But it doesn’t seem to register -with me at all, Oshkosh. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of having made a telephone -call to that company on November 1? - -Mr. RUBY. What year? - -Mr. HUBERT. 1963. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, then I think I know who that is. I think, I am not -sure now, I think they make, what do you call it, bearings. I think -they make bearings, and the reason I called them, if it is the right -company, I am not even sure of that, is that my brother Jack wanted to -make, had seen this twistboard, it is a little board with a bearing -underneath it, and you stand on it and you learn to twist that way, -and he, knowing that I had been in manufacturing and knew all about -manufacturing, asked me if I could find out where to get this type of -bearing. It was a usual, simple, very inexpensive type. So I don’t know -how I got their name. I think I called somebody. I learned of somebody -that was selling them or making them around Detroit, and I called them. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean making those bearings? - -Mr. RUBY. Making the whole twistboard, and I think they referred me to -Triangle, and I called them, if that is the correct company, and had -them send me a sample and a quotation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anything come of it? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack propose to do so far as you know? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he was going to, you know—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Manufacture it? - -Mr. RUBY. Have somebody make it and distribute it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that he suggested the name Triangle to you? - -Mr. RUBY. It is possible. I am not sure. I am not sure where I got that -name, because I think it was only one call I made, and then they said -they would send me the sample, and that was it. I forgot all about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they send the sample? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; if that is the company, they sent the sample. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do with it? - -Mr. RUBY. Nothing, because I then got the sample and saw what they -wanted for it. I think they wanted 45 cents just for the bearing part, -and then you had to make this board, and knowing something about -manufacturing, Jack wanted to sell it for about $2 retail, so I told -him if the bearing cost 45 cents and the top cost a quarter and you -have got to put it in a box and package it, you can’t come out, because -you have got almost 80 cents cost to manufacture it and you have got -to give the jobbers 50 and 10 above, that means you get 90 cents. You -can’t work on a dime gross profit. And so I discouraged him about -getting in it, so that was the end of that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he attempt to interest you in getting into this -business? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he wanted to make it there in Dallas. He wanted to make -it in Dallas. In fact, he said he was going over, he was going to -have, I think, the Goodwill. I think they manufacture things at a very -reasonable cost, and he said that is how he was going to cut corners. -But I discouraged him anyhow. I couldn’t see it, and it was a good -thing I did because I checked on the sales of the item in the Detroit -area and it was a flop, anyhow. - -Mr. HUBERT. Apparently this item wasn’t patented. - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you comment as to what you know about an -organization called the Gilt Edge Associates, Finishing Corp., in New -York City? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is owned by Elliott Schwartz and his brother. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is that corporation? What do they do? - -Mr. RUBY. They do finishing on greeting cards. Some of their work is -called flocking, and they put that glittery substance on greeting cards -and things of that sort, and they also do silk screen work. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was your interest in those products? - -Mr. RUBY. That is my brother-in-law. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is your brother-in-law? - -Mr. RUBY. That is the same Elliott Schwartz that you brought up about. -That is the company he owns. I mean that is my brother-in-law on the -wife’s side. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an organization or corporation, perhaps just a -company, called the James Welch Co.? - -Mr. RUBY. James Welch? No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you comment on what knowledge you have of an -organization called the Ipsilanti Buffing Co. - -Mr. RUBY. Never heard of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the Public Vending Co.? Do you know of that -organization? - -Mr. RUBY. No. Are they in Detroit? - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. It doesn’t register at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the Troy Plating Co.? - -Mr. RUBY. When I was Earl Products, I used to have so many plating -companies to do work for us. Is this a Chicago concern would you know? - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall that name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with an organization called the -General Scientific Corp.? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, General Scientific? Yes. I think that is the company we -used to buy lenses from for our camera, little glass lenses, if I am -not mistaken. - -Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Troy Plating Co. in Chicago, do you -recall having occasion to have called them from Detroit on October 21? - -Mr. RUBY. Let me see, Troy Plating? What did I call them for? Yes, yes, -yes; I know what it is. I think I know what it is now. - -In our cleaning operation we have a liner, a copper liner. It is a -large basket, very large, probably 30 inches in diameter and overall -length of about 4 feet, and it was corroded and the corrosion was -coming off on some of our cleaning, and I couldn’t seem to find anyone -in Detroit to plate it. It was just an odd shape. And so I called, I -think that is the reason I called Troy Plating, to see if they could do -it. However, I finally located somebody in Detroit to plate it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony is that that was the occasion for calling -the Troy Co. - -Mr. RUBY. I can’t think of any other reason. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co. in Atlanta? - -Mr. RUBY. When I took over the nameplate business, that is back from -Oliff, the fellow I had sold it to, Earl Products, and I received a few -small orders for plates, nameplates, and it was foolish to set up my -complete operation for just a few orders, and I knew that Dixie Seal -and Stamp made a very similar item. So rather than my setting up the -whole operation to make the few, I had them make it for me, and so I -called them and talked to them on a few occasions, and they did make -some for me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the Berger Products Co.? - -Mr. RUBY. Berger? Where are they located? That doesn’t strike a bell. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall that? - -Mr. RUBY. No. I make so many calls it is hard to remember all of them. -But that doesn’t strike a bell. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already mentioned your relationship with -Mike Nemzin. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; one of my very close friends, and his brother is my -partner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you called him on November 14. Do you recall -that conversation? - -Mr. RUBY. November the 14th. I could have called him November 14. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live? - -Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. I think the reason I called then is because -George, his brother, told me he was very sick. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call him? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. Probably at his place of business. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does he have any connection or have any home or business at -a place called Walled Lake, Mich.? - -Mr. RUBY. Are you speaking of Mike Nemzin? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. No; not that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone in Walled Lake, Mich.? - -Mr. RUBY. No. We have customers there, but I don’t know them personally. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any calls to this place, Walled Lake, Mich.? - -Mr. RUBY. No; but since we have customers there, I might have called -and we make so many calls to any of our customers at any given time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would anybody else in your plant be making such calls? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. We have a girl that does practically nothing but -call customers, for many different reasons, you know. Sometimes they -send in a garment and there is a hole in it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is Walled Lake near Detroit? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; very close. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you do have customers that come from that far? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. What contacts have you had with the Denver-Chicago Trucking -Co. in Denver? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they are the people that shipped the tools and dies and -the punch press to take the plates to my brother-in-law Schwartz in New -York, and on route they dropped the press and broke it in half, and so -I had many conversations with them before I could get a settlement out -of them. So I called them several times. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Barney Rothenberg? - -Mr. RUBY. What is his first name? - -Mr. HUBERT. Barney. - -Mr. RUBY. It doesn’t register with me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or Horace Settersfield or Dettersfield. - -Mr. RUBY. Delderfield. - -Mr. HUBERT. Delderfield? - -Mr. RUBY. He is my landlord. I lease his home, or rent a home from him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live? - -Mr. RUBY. He lives in California. - -Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in? - -Mr. RUBY. He is retired, as far as I know. In fact, I have never seen -him. I rent through his agent, but I send my checks to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you have had occasion to call him? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was that about and when was it approximately? - -Mr. RUBY. Gee, this was right after I moved in there, last fall, -probably September, around in there. When we first rented the place, we -wanted to know if it was all right to decorate, and I think that is why -I called him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to—go ahead. - -Mr. RUBY. I called him for another reason, also. Well, I had to call -him and talk about the lease. See, I was taking over, subleasing from -the people that were in there before me, so I think I talked to him -once or twice. - -Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to Barney Rothenberg, does it help you any if I -suggest that he lives on Genessee Street in Pontiac, Mich.? - -Mr. RUBY. No; now, we go Pontiac. Our trucks go to Pontiac. I don’t -remember calling him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it be a possibility, then, that that is a customer? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about a man by the name of Sidney Jaffe, who -lives in Seattle, Wash.? - -Mr. RUBY. Sidney Jaffe? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of any contact with a man by that name? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Henry Kenter? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anybody in the past mostly by the name of -Chasin? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. The answer is no to Chasin. Do you know anybody in the -Jaffe family? - -Mr. RUBY. Did you say do I know anybody in the Jaffe family? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. In Chicago I do. Julie Jaffe. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is a lady? - -Mr. RUBY. No; a man. Julius, I think is the correct name. I really -don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, about 20 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you some to know him? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, first, he is in the advertising specialty supply -business, and we used to do business together a little bit. And then I -knew him before. He grew up in the same neighborhood. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his father’s name was? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sisters? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know a girl by the name of Charlotte Jaffe? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or Rosalyn Jaffe? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Berke, who married one of -the Jaffe girls? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person by the name of Pasol? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who lives in Muncie, Ind.? - -Mr. RUBY. Muncie? No; I don’t think I know anyone at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been there? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so; never. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if your brother Hyman Rubenstein was interested -in Jack Ruby’s twistboard enterprise? - -Mr. RUBY. All I know is that he sent him a sample. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he attempted to get Hyman financially -interested? - -Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that he did not attempt to -get you financially interested. - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. All he wanted me to do was get him the best source -for the different parts and he would assemble it in Dallas himself. I -mean by that, he would have somebody do it for him. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you do know Ralph Paul, don’t you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I met him in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long ago? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I first met him, I think it was, down there about 5 -years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your meeting him? - -Mr. RUBY. Through Jack. Jack introduced us. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it just a social meeting or did you have any business -with him? - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t have any business with him. No business was -discussed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had any business dealings with him? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I know Jack worked with him, but I really don’t know. At -least I think they had business dealings between themselves, but I am -not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any financial dealings with him? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to lend him any money at any time? - -Mr. RUBY. No. [I remember that my brother was going into business with -Ralph Paul and Jack was supposed to put in $6,000 which he did not have -at the time so he asked me to send $6,000 to him or Ralph Paul, which I -did, and I’m sure Ralph Paul endorsed the check but I haven’t located -the check as yet. I don’t remember whether I sent the check to Jack or -Ralph, except that they were supposed to pay the money back to me but -never did. When they informed me that the club had gone broke and they -had no money to pay me, I wrote the $6,000 off as a loss.] - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he owe you any money at any time? - -Mr. RUBY. Me? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Ralph Paul? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. I call your attention to the fact that in your 1960 income -tax return you claimed a loss as a result of a worthless judgment note -with reference to Ralph Paul in the sum of $6,000. - -Mr. RUBY. That went through my company, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that. Did Ralph Paul do any business or come -to be indebted? - -Mr. RUBY. That was through the club. I sent money down to the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which club? The Sovereign or the Carousel? - -Mr. RUBY. I think to organize the Sovereign Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did you send the money to, and how much did you send? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall exactly. I think I sent more than one figure, -than one amount, that is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that transaction in general. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. I would have to see—I don’t recall when I -sent it because it is 4 or 5 years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to get a judgment against Ralph Paul, -that is to say to sue him? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Here is your return for 1960. It might refresh your memory. - -Mr. RUBY. This was sent, I think, to organize the Sovereign Club, and -within 6 months the corporation folded or whatever it was, I don’t -recall exactly. And a new corporation was formed. I can’t think of the -new name, because I was out of the picture then. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I was trying to get at is, first of all, how you -had a judgment, how you came to get a judgment against Ralph Paul in -connection with the organization of the Sovereign Club. - -Mr. RUBY. I sent the money down, but Jack, if I recall, asked me to -send it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we approach it in another way. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall the complete details on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you came to be financially interested, or -at least to advance money to Jack in connection with a club, the -organization of a club. - -Mr. RUBY. He called me and told me he needed some money for a good deal -club that was going to be organized or taken over or something. It was -some other club before. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you then how much he needed? - -Mr. RUBY. I think I sent, I am sure I sent this down, if it so states. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean $6,000? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was that to be, for the purchase of stock or a -loan? - -Mr. RUBY. I think I originally had stock in the corporation there, in -the original Sovereign Club Corp., and I think now at that time, at -that time Paul signed the note. I think this is how this—— - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean the note for the money that you sent down? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think something—I am not sure because it was handled -more or less by my accountant. I am not positive how it was set up. - -Mr. HUBERT. But I mean your accountant would not have handled the -original sending of the money. - -Mr. RUBY. I sent a check, I am quite sure I sent the check. - -Mr. HUBERT. To organize the company? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was an investment or a loan, that is what I am -trying to get at, or were there two separate transactions? You -mentioned that Paul signed a note, and that would indicate that there -was a loan made of some sort, you see. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you mentioned that you got some stock which would -indicate that the money was for an investment rather than a loan, or -perhaps a combination. And that is what I am trying to find out, what -it really was. - -Mr. RUBY. I am really not sure. I am really not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in a position at that time to advance that sort of -money without investigating the possibility? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, it was my brother. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever loaned him money before? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have got it back? - -Mr. RUBY. No; once before I loaned him some money, several times I -loaned him money that I didn’t get back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Since he was in Dallas, you mean? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you never took any notes from him? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did several years before this, but I don’t -recall all the details on that, either. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever pay you anything back on the various loans that -he made from you? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much would you say that he owes you now then? - -Mr. RUBY. Altogether? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t mean including the money you may have -expended since November 24th, but I mean up to that date. - -Mr. RUBY. I would say altogether maybe as much as $15,000 that I sent -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have never got anything in return for it? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever written off those loans as bad debts? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. The income tax return which you hold in your hand there -says it is a worthless judgment note. Do you recall that you actually -filed the lawsuit against Paul and recovered a judgment which you could -not collect? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever hiring any lawyers in Dallas or in the -Dallas area for that purpose? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you clarify for us in anyway at all what this entry -means? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I explained it to my accountant, and he said that is -how you write it off, as far as I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you simply gave him the facts? - -Mr. RUBY. The facts. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he is the one who drew up the return? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think his name is on the front of this. It would have -been Mr. —— - -Mr. RUBY. Let me see. Harold Kaminsky. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t one of your sisters married—— - -Mr. RUBY. That is what I was going to say. He is my brother-in-law. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which sister is this? - -Mr. RUBY. Eileen. - -Mr. HUBERT. She married Harold Kaminsky? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He is an accountant, is he? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he handled this for you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You gave him these details? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you invested any money or loaned any money to Jack -after 1960? - -Mr. RUBY. After 1960? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did. I don’t remember the exact figure. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was it in connection with, and about when did it occur? - -Mr. RUBY. It must have been just about 1960. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was in addition to the $6,000 that we have been talking -about? - -Mr. RUBY. I think that is the figure, but I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know that you would have been able to take a loss -for a bad debt or loan made in 1960, that is to say on your return for -1960. - -Mr. RUBY. I say I don’t recall. I don’t recall the exact—I would have -to check my records and see when I sent it down. - -Mr. HUBERT. By your records, you mean checkbooks and so forth? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of personal records do you have, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. We have a regular set of books. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about the Cobo Cleaners? - -Mr. RUBY. No; even before that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have a personal set of books? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I mean by regular bank stubs and check stubs and -statements. - -Mr. HUBERT. You still have retained those? - -Mr. RUBY. I think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to make a telephone call or send a -telegram to Havana, Cuba, in 1962, in April of 1962? - -Mr. RUBY. April of 1962? The only reason I would have, Jack visited -Cuba, Havana. I don’t know if it was in April, and I may have talked to -him. But I don’t know, I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are acquainted with Jack’s visit to Havana? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know he went there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he go there once or more than once? - -Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, once. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that that was in 1959? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If it was in 1959, then I couldn’t have made -any call or sent any wire. As far as I know, to Cuba, in 1962. I don’t -remember any, anyhow. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anybody in Cuba? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you think of any reason at all why you might have sent -a telegram or made a phone call to Cuba? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that some employee of yours might have? - -Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I can’t think of anyone. I knew of the -fellow that Jack went to visit there, a fellow by the name of McWillie. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him? - -Mr. RUBY. Jack told me about him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that in the early part of this year, -specifically on January 6, you were interviewed by an Internal Revenue -agent who asked you about some calls and so forth, and that he -mentioned to you something about a call to Cuba, and that you told him -that you thought it was a telegram? - -Mr. RUBY. There should be some record of it if I did. I don’t recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a conversation with this Internal Revenue -agent whereby he was questioning you concerning whether certain phone -calls were properly deductible business expenses? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that in the course of that conversation he asked you -about the Havana call and that you identified or thought that it was a -telegram? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t see why. I don’t recall sending a telegram. I can’t -think of why it would be in 1962. I can’t think of any reason for it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that someone else could have called and -charged it to the Cobo Cleaners account? - -Mr. RUBY. I doubt it. I just can’t imagine who in 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. In April of 1962 you were with Cobo Cleaners in Detroit -already? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. I can’t think of any reason. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any policy in your business about getting -approval before long-distance calls were made, or how did you manage -that aspect? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I mean I don’t watch it that close because we have so -many. Wouldn’t we know, or isn’t there somebody where we sent it so it -could refresh my memory? I don’t think I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Pratkins, or possibly -Praskins? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to Cuba yourself? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to that Welch Co. I mentioned a moment ago, -would it help you if I stated that I think they are located in -Cambridge, Mass., and it is the Welch Candy Co.? Do you recall anything -about that? - -Mr. RUBY. No; you know my brother Hy sells candy. How long ago does -this go back? It doesn’t register with me at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. This would have been in May of 1963. - -Mr. RUBY. The name doesn’t register at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection that you yourself made any call to -the James Welch Candy Co. in Cambridge, Mass.? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would there be a possibility that someone could have used -your phone and done that? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t think they would. The only possibility, if my brother -Hy does business with them, the only possibility I can think of is that -perhaps at that time he was visiting me and called them. But he would -ask me first, I think. - -[I do recall making a call to Welch Candy to ask them if they were to -continue using my camera as a premium.] - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he visit you during the year 1963? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the year? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the spring? - -Mr. RUBY. I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it about a year ago? - -Mr. RUBY. He stopped in a couple of times. Yes; when he is in the -territory he stops in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we take a breather for a minute. - -(Brief recess.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, who is working with me in this area, has -some questions to ask you, so let’s get back on the record with the -statement that this is a continuation of the deposition under the same -authority that was used for the commencement of the deposition, and -that you are still under the same oath that you were at the beginning, -and may we have this understanding, that if we have any further -recesses as I think we will, that the continuation thereafter will be -under the same authority that we started off with, and that you will be -under oath throughout? Do you agree to that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to save some time. All right. Mr. Griffin. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do at the outset, Mr. Ruby, is to go -back over some of the names that Mr. Hubert had talked with you about -before, and maybe I can ask some questions which might be able to -refresh your recollection. He indicated to me that you didn’t recognize -the name of Dominic Scorta. Now this would be somebody who lives or -works in Chicago. Do you have any recollection of any association with -anybody like that? - -Mr. RUBY. Scorta, Scorta? Not at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert also indicated to me that you didn’t recognize -the name of a man named Kirk Bibul? - -Mr. RUBY. That is right; I don’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any friends or acquaintances at Northwestern -University or in Evanston? - -Mr. RUBY. Gee, I lived in Chicago all my life. I have got any number -of friends that went to school there but that name still doesn’t sound -familiar. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are your children of college age? - -Mr. RUBY. No; the oldest one is only 15. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anyone who has access to your house phone or -business phone? - -Mr. RUBY. The only thing I can think of, I don’t know, is he a music -teacher? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what I am asking you. Do you know a music teacher? - -Mr. RUBY. My wife was trying to contact a music teacher at Northwestern -to send my children to him for piano lessons. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? I mean, how long ago was this? - -Mr. RUBY. It has got to be 3 years ago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is while you lived in Chicago? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is the only thing I can think of. Or if he has -anything to do with music teaching there, that is the only reason I can -think of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we get this into the record. Could you give us the -names of the people who would have had access to the telephones at the -Cobo Cleaners, and who might have made long distance calls during the -years 1962 and 1963? - -Mr. RUBY. Any one of our employees could have. It would be very -difficult. I could give you the list, but there is quite a few. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would an employee make a long-distance call without your -consent? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who would be authorized to make it without clearing with -you first, let’s put it that way? - -Mr. RUBY. Anyone; anyone probably other than my wife or my partner that -I can think of. That is about all. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that that the only ones who would be authorized -without clearing it first would be your partner and your wife? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; for very long-distance calls. Now we call the suburbs as -I told you, Pontiac, Walled Lake, or Mount Clemens. Those are 25¢ or -30¢ calls. Because we cover that area and our trucks go there, our call -girl will be calling them any number of times during the month. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have during this period? I know -it would vary, but an average? - -Mr. RUBY. Probably 50. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now the phones are in the office? - -Mr. RUBY. Not all of them. We have one in the back end that anybody -could use. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a pay phone? - -Mr. RUBY. We have a pay phone and a company phone. - -Mr. HUBERT. What are the numbers of each? What is the pay phone number? - -Mr. RUBY. The pay phone I don’t know. They took that out. I don’t know -what that is. I never use it. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is still there? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the number of the regular? - -Mr. RUBY. 860-3400. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located? - -Mr. RUBY. We have one in the marking room as we call it at the back end -of the plant. We have four extensions in the front office where the -girls are. We have an extension phone in my office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are those all on the same line, the same number? - -Mr. RUBY. 0400, 1, 2, and 3. - -Mr. HUBERT. There are really three numbers? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; then we have another phone, my private line which is -863—I have got to look it up myself. I never use it. I don’t even have -my own number. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Who would have access to those -phones other than the public phone? - -Mr. RUBY. I am not through yet. We have some other phones. We do dry -cleaning for J. L. Hudson Co. I don’t suppose you have heard of them. -We have two outside phones that we use in conjunction with their -business. Now you are saying 1962. When are you speaking of 1962, when? -Because we didn’t take over Hudson’s until December of 1962, so those -numbers wouldn’t mean anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What about 1963? - -Mr. RUBY. 1963, yes; we had this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those numbers? - -Mr. RUBY. 863-0566. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who would have access to those office phones as it were? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, most anybody in the office. We have about 10 office -employees, and every once in a while some of the shop employees come up -and use it. - -Mr. HUBERT. To make long distance phone calls? - -Mr. RUBY. No. As far as long distance, I don’t think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked the long distance records in any way? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t check them too carefully because we make so many. -My partner lives out of town, and I always talk to maybe Miriam in -the plant. We work together, we buy together sometimes. I talk to the -Benton Harbor plant. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t spot check it to see that—— - -Mr. RUBY. No; I really don’t spot check it that closely. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if we could get from Mr. Ruby, maybe if you would -make a note of this, to provide us with a list of all of your office -employees for the year 1963? - -Mr. RUBY. You don’t know if this is a music teacher, do you? Probably -my wife called. - -Mr. HUBERT. We are speaking generally now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We are speaking generally. First of all, I am not -addressing myself to Mr. Bibul. Right now we are just addressing -ourselves to the general problem who else might have used your phone. -Do you think you could provide us—— - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure; that is no problem. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With a list of all of the office employees which you had? - -Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is no problem. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You can limit that to the year 1963. - -Mr. RUBY. When you say provide a list, what do you want? - -Mr. HUBERT. You want from April of 1962, don’t you? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us the month of April of 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. During the lunch period if you have a chance you might be -able to write that down too. - -Mr. RUBY. You are talking of all office employees April 1962. Well, we -had some changes, several of them, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you can skip the remaining months and give us all -of 1963. - -Mr. RUBY. You just want their names. You don’t want any addresses or -phone numbers or anything, just their names? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can give us addresses also we would -appreciate it. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I can take it off the employee payroll card. I can -give you the whole thing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Gives us names, addresses, and telephone numbers. - -Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to ask my wife specifically about that call to -North western University? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; because that may answer that one. What is that name? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Kirk Bibul. - -Mr. RUBY. And that was in April 1962? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. - -Mr. RUBY. That would be before that? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that was after. - -Mr. RUBY. Before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the latter part of 1962 and the first part of -1963. - -Mr. RUBY. Late 1962 and 1963. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And early 1963. I believe also you indicated to Mr. Hubert -that you didn’t recognize the name of the Ypsilanti Buffing Co. as -anybody that you had dealt with. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or maybe you did identify that one. - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. Now when was this about? Maybe this had -to do with polishing or plating that same basket that we use in our dry -cleaning operation. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Public Vending Corp? - -Mr. RUBY. No; Public Vending, where are they located? Is that a long -distance call, you say? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is a long distance call. When did you have this -problem with the plating that required some work? - -Mr. RUBY. Last year. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of last year would that have been? - -Mr. RUBY. No, excuse me; yes, the end of last year, that is right, the -end of last year, and that is when I think I called Troy Plating in -Chicago, to see if they could do that, and I may have called. I used -the yellow pages. I tried to get information from anyone as to who -could do it, so I may have called Ypsilanti, and they may have said no -and I crossed it out of my mind immediately. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the General Scientific Corp. is not a corporation that -you recognize? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; oh, yes. We bought lenses from them for the camera. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Berger Products? - -Mr. RUBY. That don’t register with me. What city? That isn’t in -Cleveland, is it, by chance, because I just called Berger Products I -think Monday, but that wouldn’t be on there. That is this Monday. See, -we buy different articles from different parts of the country, and it -is hard to remember each one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these purchases in connection with your drycleaning -business or some other business? - -Mr. RUBY. Which, Troy? That was for the drycleaning. The lens, that was -for my camera. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked him, Mr. Hubert, about what percentage of -his time is spent with—— - -Mr. HUBERT. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some idea what percentage of your time is -spent with the camera company and what percentage with the drycleaning -business? - -Mr. RUBY. The camera company is practically nil. In fact, it is out -of business now. Over a 2-year period I only did about $10,000 gross -sales, I think. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Last year how much of your time was devoted to the camera -company? - -Mr. RUBY. When you say time, actually I took care of it more or less -out of my home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any other businesses last year besides the -camera company and the drycleaning business? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I had the nameplate business. That all comes under Earl -Ruby Co., both of those. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your time did the nameplate business take? - -Mr. RUBY. Very little. I don’t think I did a thousand dollars in the -last 2 years on that, so you can imagine how much time that took up. -And then that is dead now. In fact, the orders were so small that -instead of manufacturing the plates myself, for which I have the tools -and dies, I had somebody else do it for me that makes a similar item. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of nameplates are they? - -Mr. RUBY. A little plate 3 inches by 6 inches made out of metal. It is -very similar to the design of your license plate, but we would put the -children’s name on it, like John Jones, and they would fasten it to the -back of their bicycle or their wagon or what have you. This was a box -top deal item that we used, Armour’s Meats used it several years ago. -They send in a box top from Armour’s franks with 25 cents, and you get -the plate, things like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you held the dies on it? - -Mr. RUBY. I own them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You own the dies, but you were going to have somebody else -manufacture them? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, I did, because it didn’t pay for me to set up to make -100 plates, because it just wasn’t worth it, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the manufacturing? - -Mr. RUBY. Dixie. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this your brother-in-law’s company? - -Mr. RUBY. Who? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dixie? - -Mr. RUBY. Dixie, no; that is just some people I never even met, but I -knew that they made a very similar plate, exactly the same size but -slightly different in design, and that I could substitute this for -mine. Actually, his was a better plate. It was made out of aluminum, -which I did. And so that it wasn’t necessary for me to go through all -the bother and expense to set up my operation to make the plate. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co.? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Atlanta? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the Berger Products Co. is in Philadelphia. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, Berger Products. They made a plate, and the reason I -called them, I have got to go back. When I sold my company, Earl -Products, the fellow I sold it to couldn’t pay me all the money. So we -made a new deal. He gave me some money and some of the operation back. -That is how I got back the camera and the nameplate. Berger is also -in the nameplate manufacturing business, and I wanted to sell him the -nameplate business if I could. That is why I called him. Now I know. It -is Philadelphia. That must be the Berger Co. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Mr. Hubert ask you if you knew anybody at the -Mar-Din Co.? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t ask me that. Yes; I know those people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know them? - -Mr. RUBY. They were one of our best accounts years ago when I first got -into manufacturing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the Earl Products? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; the Earl Products Co. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did they purchase from you? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they purchased aluminum salt and pepper shaker sets. -That was the main item. And then they also purchased some hammer and -screwdriver sets, because at that time I was manufacturing those, too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you deal with these people while your brother Jack was -connected with Earl Products? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack know these people? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the Mar-Din Co. do? - -Mr. RUBY. They are distributors of general merchandise, I would say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they do any manufacturing that you know of? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t thing so, not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the nature of their distribution? Is it mail order -or direct sale? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, it is both. I think some mail order and they have -salesmen, which would mean direct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember talking with Jack, your brother Jack, -about the Mar-Din Co. at anytime last year? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think when he was talking about—I am not sure now, but -I think that he brought up their name when he was talking to me about -going into the manufacture of the twistboard, and he thought they would -be a very good outlet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what you suggested to him? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I am not even sure of that. I can’t remember a -conversation that took place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember receiving any telephone calls from Jack in -the month of November before the episode down in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; we talked about the twistboard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many calls do you recall receiving from him? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, at least three or four, I think. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they all in connection with the twistboard? - -Mr. RUBY. As far as I know; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to try to reflect on these calls and see -if we can’t discuss them one by one. If you can, try to think about the -first time he called you and the next time, and so forth, so that we -can ascertain how your dealings with him progressed? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I think the first conversation was probably to the -effect that he had a good item, and he was going to send me one, and he -told me something about it, it is a terrific item, and he wants to get -into the manufacture of it, if he could. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he send you one of them? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he did. In fact he sent me, I think he sent me a half -dozen. No; the first time he only sent me two, and then when I was down -in Dallas, you know, for the trial and so forth, I brought back a half -dozen for my kids, and so on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were interested then in the project? - -Mr. RUBY. No; not for myself. He wanted me to see if I could locate -people to make the parts at the least possible cost. He wanted to get -into the manufacture in Dallas, and he mentioned to me, because I was -trying to discourage him, because first of all he don’t know too much -about manufacturing, and to set up for one item, which I didn’t think -was such a tremendous item, I thought was a little bit ridiculous. And -then he said that he would have the Goodwill organization assemble -it for him. I don’t know if you are familiar with their complete -operation, but they will assemble items for you at a very reasonable -rate. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Goodwill Industries? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that going to be done in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. In Dallas. So then he sent me the sample, and somehow I think -this Triangle manufacturing came up. He may have mentioned it. I am not -sure because I don’t remember every word of the conversation going back -that far. I think I called Triangle, if that is their name. I am not -even sure of that. He called me and he said, he might have said, “call -them and see what you can do.” Anyhow, I contacted a couple of people -in Detroit that I thought might know something about the twistboard, -because he told me it was so tremendous in Dallas I figured it’s got -to be known here in Detroit, although I had never even seen it. So -I asked—I happened to call a fellow that is a salesman for toys and -novelties and things of that sort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that? - -Mr. RUBY. I can’t even think. I know his first name is Henny, I can’t -even think of his last name, and he said it is a flop, it is a dead -item here. They tried it and it didn’t go over. So I think in one of -the conversations I no doubt told Jack that, and anyhow I got a sample -and I think it was of this part that we needed, the bearing part for -this twistboard. Maybe I had better describe it. It is a little board, -fiberboard about 12 inches square and it sets on a bearing like, and -the bearing has another piece of press wood under it, and if you stand -on it and you twist, you twist around. That is what the item was. And I -couldn’t see it, especially it was selling for $3. I couldn’t see it. I -just didn’t think anything of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it Jack was enthusiastic about it? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; he was very enthused. He was going to get started. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to dissuade him at all from his enthusiasm? - -Mr. RUBY. I think so, I think so. I really don’t know. As far as I -know, I think I did. I told him it just doesn’t pay to get into it, -because the one that was being marketed, if I recall he told me was -selling for $3. So he said if he could sell his for $2. it would be -tremendous. But I figured out the cost to him about 80 cents and if you -sell the jobbers, you have got to give them 50 and 10 off. By the way, -I have gone all through this with him but I just want to make it clear. -So that means he is going to get 90 cents. In addition they want 2 -percent, so you get 88 cents, approximately, and it costs you 80 cents, -so you can’t be in business on 8 cents gross profit on an item that you -are selling for 88 cents. It is just impossible. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And in which telephone conversation did you have this -discussion? - -Mr. RUBY. In one of them, not the first one, because I didn’t have all -the information then. But after I got all the information, I called him -or he called me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack calling you after the telephone call, -a few days after the telephone call that was made in connection with -Triangle? Do you remember that telephone call? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I think so, and that is when I told him I think they -wanted 45 cents, and that is when I broke down the price structure, -that it just didn’t seem feasible to consider manufacturing it if you -had to sell it at $2 and I probably told him at that time, I checked -into it and it was a flop in Detroit, so it was my opinion it wasn’t -good. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you in November about anything other than -the twistboard? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so. I think the only thing we discussed other -than—maybe how is the family, you know, how are your kids, which is the -general conversation when two brothers talk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever call you in connection with Eva’s illness? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he did mention that, that she was going to have an -operation, she was going to have an operation, she had an operation, -and he said, “I think you should call her or write her” or something. I -don’t know, I may have even called her in the hospital, I really don’t -remember, but he said she was feeling very bad, and for me to either -write her, send her a card or call her, and I don’t know what I did. I -did something but I don’t remember exactly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While Jack was living in Dallas, had you talked with him -about other business ventures that he had, outside of his clubs? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, a few years ago I talked to him about, he had a vitamin -called Miniron, or something like that. In fact, I tried to discourage -him about that, but I couldn’t, and in fact I think if I remember -correctly, I sent him some money to try it, but it just didn’t go. -It was a vitamin, a liquid vitamin of some kind that he thought was -terrific. He was always taking diet pills and stuff like that. He was -whatever the name for that is. Anyhow, he went for all kinds of diet -remedies that came on the market. But it never seemed to help him much -because he liked to eat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of when he was selling these -diet pills or these vitamin pills? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, it is a few years back. It had to be—it was a liquid. I -don’t think it was a pill. It was a bottle of some kind. In fact, he -sent me some. It is several years back, I mean 4, 5 or 6 or 7. I don’t -remember exactly. It was several years ago I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall your activities of the weekend of November -22, 23, and 24? - -Mr. RUBY. The 22d, Friday, right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. I was at work drycleaning when we heard the news on the radio. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That the President had been shot? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; first shot. Then we were waiting for additional news, -and then finally it came through that he was dead. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the drycleaning plant that day? - -Mr. RUBY. Gee, I would say probably until 6 o’clock. That is my usual -hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. RUBY. Friday I always go home to dinner Friday night because it is -traditional in our family. Jewish people, we have a big meal on Friday -nights, so very, very seldom would I miss a Friday night dinner. I am -quite sure I went home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any specific recollection of what you did -Friday night? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I was deeply upset, like most everybody else, I think, -and I went home I know at 6 o’clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of going home and -being at home on Friday night? - -Mr. RUBY. No; not specific, but I can’t see what else I would have done -but go home to eat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did in the evening after you ate, -Friday evening? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your practice to go to religious services on Friday? - -Mr. RUBY. You wouldn’t go on Friday night, would you? No; I don’t go on -Friday night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you of the Jewish faith? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a particular temple or synagogue? - -Mr. RUBY. More or less, yes, but I am not what you call Orthodox. The -Orthodox, you know, just like other religions, they go every chance -they get more or less. But I am not of the Orthodox. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the temple or synagogue that you belong to, when does -it regularly hold services? - -Mr. RUBY. It probably holds them—I don’t know. I know they have them -Saturday. Saturday they always have services. I don’t think they have -services there Friday night. They don’t have services on Friday night -as far as I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your own religious practices when you were -living in Chicago with Jack? Did your practices and feelings at that -time differ from his? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say—can you make that a little more clear? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking back to the time when you and Jack saw each other -regularly when you were in Chicago, when Jack was in Chicago, were -your religious practices the same as they are now? Were you any more -religious then? Did you observe the holidays more closely? - -Mr. RUBY. You want to compare Jack with myself? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, let me ask you about your own practice. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, you must understand, first, that it is very unusual for -a Jewish boy not to be bar mitzvah. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking about particular ceremonies, but I am -asking you about the regular habits of weekly attendance and so forth. -Did they differ in the period before 1948 from the way they are now? - -Mr. RUBY. Mine? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say I go more often since I got married, of -course, because that is the Jewish tradition. When you get married, -you have children, my kids go to Hebrew school, they went to parochial -school, in fact my son graduated from the Hebrew school in Chicago, and -so I would say I am more religious since we have children. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were single in Chicago, how did your -religious practices differ from Jack’s? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say he was a little more religious than I was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he attend the synagogue or temple more often than you -did? - -Mr. RUBY. I would say more often than I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go regularly? - -Mr. RUBY. I wouldn’t say regularly, but he did go more often than I -did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times a year would he go other than on high -holidays? - -Mr. RUBY. This goes back so many years. You know he has been away more -or less from me for 17 years now, so it is pretty hard to remember. And -you know he is not the only one in the family. We still have six more -children. I can’t even remember all their birthdays, remembering who -went where on holidays. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don’t have a specific recollection, I don’t want to -ask you the question, then. Let’s go back to the 22d, 23d, and the 24th. - -Do you recall what you did on Saturday, the 23d? - -Mr. RUBY. I think I went to work, the usual time, probably 7:30, and -probably worked until 6 o’clock. Saturday is a busy day for us, and -probably went home so far as I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the word “probably.” Are you indicating that -you don’t really have any specific recollection of what you did that -Saturday? - -Mr. RUBY. I would say I probably went home, but I am not sure. I would -have to check with my wife to make sure. I don’t think we went out, -because we were in deep mourning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were, or you were not? - -Mr. RUBY. I said we were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in deep mourning? - -Mr. RUBY. So I don’t think we would have gone any place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean when you said you were in deep mourning? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, we cried a lot in our family when this happened, I mean -actual tears. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when this happened? Can you describe to us -where and when and who was present? What was happening around you? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know exactly what our—but I know after this -happened, probably on Friday night, my wife was definitely in tears at -that time, and I was, too. We both greatly admired him. In fact, my -wife on many occasions, even before the incident, she just loved him. -There was nobody greater than President Kennedy. She made a statement -many times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you both registered Democrats? - -Mr. RUBY. I was a Democrat all my life. In fact, I worked for the -Democratic headquarters in Chicago many years ago. All our family has -been Democrats all our lives, as far as I can remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did Sunday morning? - -Mr. RUBY. On the 26th? Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The 24th. - -Mr. RUBY. The 24th. We needed some electrical work done at the plant, -and the only time to do it without interfering with production was -to have it done on Sunday morning. So I had the electrician come in -on Sunday, and I met him there, I think, about 10 o’clock probably, -Sunday morning, at the plant to do this work, and I was there until—I -just wanted to get them started, and I had one of my other employees -there to watch things, you know, because we had an outside contractor, -electrical contractor here to do the work, and there is a lot of -clothing there and we wanted to be careful if they worked on the -ceiling that they didn’t drop dirt on the clothing and so forth. - -So I left. I was there maybe 2 hours, I don’t remember, anyhow I -wasn’t in the car but 5 minutes or so driving one of the other -employees—another employee who stopped in home—I was en route to drive -him home. We had the radio tuned in. That is when I heard—no, before -I left this Mike Nemzin, who is my best friend, and his brother is my -partner, he was in the hospital with an operation—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The brother or Mike Nemzin? - -Mr. RUBY. Mike Nemzin. He had some kind of surgery on his ribs or -something, a very serious one, though, and so I thought I would call -him to see how he was. - -So I called him Sunday morning, it must have been about 12 o’clock, -from the plant, I was at the plant, mind you, and as I am talking to -him, he is in his bed in the hospital, he is watching television or -radio and he says to me, “I can’t talk to you. Somebody just shot -Oswald,” he says. - -“I’ll talk to you some other time.” You know, because we were all -excited, especially he was. So I hung up. And we didn’t have the radio -on in the plant, but we left a few minutes thereafter. And in the car, -as I said, about 5 minutes later, as I am in the car driving, just -drove probably a mile from the plant, which wouldn’t take more than 5 -minutes, it comes through on the radio that Oswald has been shot and -the fellow that did the shooting is Jack Ruby, owner of the Carousel -Night Club in Dallas, and I immediately knew it was my brother because -that was the name of the club he owned. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you say you were riding with someone at the time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his name? - -Mr. RUBY. Jim Stewart. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does he still work for you? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located now; do you know? - -Mr. RUBY. Right now he is in the hospital, Receiving Hospital in -Detroit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I was very upset, of course, and he said—I was -driving—he said, “You had better pull over to the curb. You just turned -white as a ghost.” - -So I pulled over for a second or for a few minutes to recuperate my -senses, so to speak. And then I said, “I had better take you home,” -which I did. Then I went home. I drove home, and I called my sister in -Chicago. I don’t even know which one I called. There is two of them. -And they knew about it, of course, by that time, too. This was a half -hour later and they probably heard it on the air. And they were all -upset, of course. And I said, “Well, I had better come to Chicago.” So -I called the airport and I flew to Chicago Sunday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the cleaning plant after you -finished talking with Mike Nemzin? - -Mr. RUBY. Just a couple of minutes, just a few minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what other people were in the plant at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. When I talked to Mike Nemzin? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. The electrician, I think, and his helper, he had a helper, -you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of the electrician? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us his name? - -Mr. RUBY. The trade name, I think, is Marco Electrical Contractors, and -his first name is Marty. That is with a “c”. It is a little bit of an -odd name, but I have it available there if it is necessary. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. His last name starts with a “c”? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that is where he got this Marco. And then, of -course, as I told you I flew to Chicago, and my brother met me at the -airport, if I am not mistaken, Hyman, and this was already before I -could get reservations and get the plane and pack some clothes and all. -It was late in the afternoon, and I think I arrived there, if I am not -mistaken, probably 6 o’clock in Chicago, and it takes about an hour to -get there. - -Anyhow, no sooner I got in the house, you know, of course, the -reporters were calling and it was a real—we tried not to talk to -everyone, to anyone, if I recall. - -When I got there, then my sister said that there were some men at the -door and they said they were FBI men or special agents, and she thought -they were reporters so she wouldn’t let them in, and she was hysterical -now, to put it straight. And so then we got a call. We did answer the -phone, of course, and we got a call from an agent, I can’t remember -his name, but he said that they want to get in and talk to us and we -wouldn’t let anybody in. You know, we just wouldn’t let anybody in. So -he says, “Here is a number and call this number and my name is”—one of -them was White, and I can’t think of the other one, one of the agents -in Chicago. “Call this number and they will verify this that we are -special agents.” So I said OK. So I went out to a pay station and -called, and sure enough they said yes, they are agents, and so I walked -back into the house the back way, and I saw them standing in the front, -by the way. You know, there were about three or four of them. And I -told my sister we had better let them in, they are special agents, -which we did. There were four, I think. Four agents came in at one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did they interview you and your brother and your -sister? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; all of us. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you being interviewed simultaneously by the Bureau? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; in different parts of the house. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So that while you were being interviewed, one or more of -your brothers and sisters were also being interviewed. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked to one sister, I think one agent talked -to her in the kitchen or dining room or another part of the house, and -one or two were with us. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the Secret Service agents had talked to -you, had you had a chance to talk with any of your family in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. Had I? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, at the time that the FBI talked to you, did you -have an opportunity to talk with any of your family in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t think I even had time. I don’t think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall having talked to them? - -Mr. RUBY. No; but I don’t think so at all. There was just not enough -time. I called Chicago, if I recall, that is all I called. I don’t -think I called Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Hyman or your sisters in Chicago had a chance to talk -with Eva or Sam? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago and talked with Sam—— - -Mr. RUBY. With Hy, you mean. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With Hy, yes—did you discuss any contacts that Hyman had -had with Jack over the weekend? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Chicago on the 24th? - -Mr. RUBY. I just remained overnight and went back to Detroit, because -my wife called me late at night, I don’t know what time it was, very -late anyhow, and she said, “You had better come home. The reporters are -just driving me crazy.” She was terribly upset. So the next morning I -flew back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Chicago, did you make any plans with -respect to obtaining an attorney for your brother? - -Mr. RUBY. While I was there for that little while? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. No; but I think if I recall correctly Tom Howard was already -in the picture. I heard his name. I didn’t talk to him, but as far as -I know I heard his name on the air, that he was representing Jack, or -something to that effect. At least I think so. But I don’t know if that -was before I left for Detroit or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of your meeting with your brothers and -sisters in Chicago? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they were upset and they suggested I come there. So I -came there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussion as to what you could do for -Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. We probably did, but there was nothing definite made, no -definite arrangements. I know that I called, I think, Tom Howard. He -was the first attorney, if you remember, to represent Jack, Monday -morning after I arrived back home, because when I arrived there we had -police at the house already, and the chief of police and my wife came -down to meet me at the plane, and en route back my wife was telling me -how the newspaper reporters were bothering her, they wouldn’t let her -sleep. They were there until 2 o’clock in the morning and whatnot, you -know. So I didn’t know what to do. So I asked the chief of police—his -name is Sackett—a very nice man—what would he suggest. They all wanted -information, a press conference or what. He said, “If I were you, -the only way you are going to get rid of them is give them a press -conference.” But I didn’t know if that was the correct thing to do, so -I am quite sure I called Tom Howard and told him who I was and told him -that all these news people wanted a press conference and what should I -do. And I told him what the sheriff, the police chief, had suggested, -and he says, “Well, there is no harm. You might as well do it and get -it over with.” - -So we called a press conference, I think it was, for 2 o’clock in the -afternoon, something like that, and our rabbi came over, Rabbi Adler, -and then I think right after that, I think some special agents called -and came in or came over, and I think there were some there in the -evening. Again, I think they came. And that ended that day. That was -Monday. And then we started talking about attorneys and what to do and -who to use. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say, “we started talking about it.” Who was this? - -Mr. RUBY. I talked to the family, and I talked to—we talked back and -forth so many times. I am talking about Chicago, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. And I think they were in touch with Dallas. I think Eva and -Sam, they were talking back and forth, more or less continually. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with getting Mr. Tonahill into -the case? - -Mr. RUBY. Indirectly; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you who you directly got into the case, if -anybody? - -Mr. RUBY. Belli. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us how Mr. Belli came to get into the case? - -Mr. RUBY. Jack called. They let him use the phone down there. He talked -to me or someone. Anyhow, we were talking about a lawyer then. We -were all excited about getting the right lawyer. And he mentioned—I -am trying to get it straight in my mind here. Oh, yes; he mentioned -somebody wanted some information on his life or something, a life story -or something, something to that effect, and he said to contact Mike -Shore in California, in Los Angeles, who is a friend of ours, and he -was a pretty well known publicity man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mike Shore before you called? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know Mike Shore? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, actually, I know him since high school days in Chicago. -He originally lived in Chicago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a classmate of yours in high school? - -Mr. RUBY. No; but he went to the same school, if I remember, and I -really didn’t get acquainted with him until after we got out of school. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your acquaintance with Mike Shore after you got -out of school? - -Mr. RUBY. Just on a general hello and how are you basis, nothing real -close. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But in what connection would you see him? - -Mr. RUBY. Then he became—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you understand my question? In what connection would -you see him after you got out of school? - -Mr. RUBY. I used to be a lifeguard at a swimming pool close to where -he lived and he used to come over there once in a great while, just a -few blocks from his house. And he used to—he was a Good Humor salesman, -and we would go out and see him where he parked his truck or something -once in a great while. But that was because he was more friendly with -other people than he was with me. In other words, I wasn’t one of his -buddies. I would go along just for the ride. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do any business with him? - -Mr. RUBY. I am coming to that. Then he became—he opened up the Mike -Shore Advertising and he is the one that was behind Earl Muntz, you -know, and the cars and the television. That is Michael Shore. And I -did some business with him along in manufacturing. He got into the -manufacturing of an item, a food seasoner. It was a large aluminum -needle and you filled it with some different meat flavors and you -injected it in the meat. Somebody talked him into it. He was doing -very well, and he invested in it. Anyhow, it wasn’t made correctly -so they couldn’t sell it, so he asked me since at that time I was in -manufacturing, if I could correct the defect so they could at least -sell them and market them, which I did. They shipped all these to me, I -don’t know how many thousand, 5,000 or 10,000, and we reworked them and -fixed them and sold them for him. Then not too long after that Muntz -practically went bankrupt, so he closed the Chicago office and moved -back to California. So, anyhow, I called Mike. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you another question. From what you have said, -I take it that Mike Shore first had contacted your brother Jack or -somebody in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack told you to call Mike Shore? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore contacted Jack or what gave Jack the idea -of suggesting that you call Shore? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, Jack knew that I knew Mike Shore, and he was, you -know—he had been in advertising, was the only one we knew that could -give us any advice as to what to do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had someone approach him in connection with a -life story or something like that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said several people were trying to contact him -through Howard and wanted a life story. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The first you heard about this, though, was when Jack -called you and asked you to contact Mike Shore? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know. Now, wait—I don’t know if he talked to -me or he talked to one of the members of the family, because we had so -many telephone calls from those first few days I can’t recall all of -them. But, anyhow, the word came to me to call Mike Shore and ask his -advice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall how long after Oswald was shot that -this call of yours took place? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a day or two later, I think. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you did call Mike Shore? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call him in California? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I called him in California. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did your conversation with Shore last? - -Mr. RUBY. Several minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten or fifteen minutes? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I really don’t know. Anyhow, I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what that conversation was. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned that Jack had said that people were -interested in a story on Jack and Jack had said to contact him, ask -his advice. And so he says, “Gee, that is a coincidence,” he says, -“because I’ve got somebody sitting right here in my office that would -be the perfect man to do a story on Jack if one is going to be done.” -And he says, “His name is Billy Woodfield.” His real name is William -Woodfield. So he says, “I think you ought to come out here,” the -conversation got to that, “so we can talk it over.” - -So I flew out there a day or two later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that all there was to the conversation at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; lawyers weren’t mentioned yet as far as I remember. I -don’t think we mentioned the lawyer in the first conversation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you discussed with your family or with Tom Howard -before you called Mike Shore—— - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been your discussion about selling the life story -with your family and with Tom Howard? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, the question came up that we would need money for a -good lawyer, and this was one of the solutions to raising money. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you called Mike Shore, are you saying that you had -discussed getting a lawyer other than Tom Howard, or when you use the -term good lawyer are you talking about paying Howard? - -Mr. RUBY. No: we were talking about a lawyer other than Howard now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had suggested that you should get a lawyer other than -Howard or how did that idea arise? - -Mr. RUBY. That was, I think, between our family, the family itself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you discuss this with Howard before you called -Mike Shore? - -Mr. RUBY. Wait, you are ahead of me. The first conversation I didn’t -mention a lawyer to Mike Shore yet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But I am still asking you, you had indicated to me that -the reason that you were calling Shore and thinking about a life story -was that you were going to need money for another lawyer. The life -story, as I understand it, is tied in with the idea of getting the -money for a lawyer, or was there another reason for selling the life -story? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I think I talked to Tom Howard because we never heard -of him, of course. In the meantime, I think in conversations back and -forth, we talked with another lawyer there, somebody talked to him from -the family or maybe it was relayed through my sister Eva down there—and -I have a brother Sam in Dallas—do we need another lawyer. And then we -learned that they were already trying to get a lawyer. - -Now, you must understand, we have to go back to Tom Howard. Tom Howard -is a bondsman in addition to being a lawyer. That is what he is noted -for there. So then I think I talked to this other lawyer, Stanley -Kaufman. He was my brother’s civil lawyer down there. And I asked him -if he knows a good criminal lawyer, and he says, no, he can’t recommend -anyone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. RUBY. Excuse me. I can’t remember the exact sequence of all these -conversations, because they were going back and forth all day and night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we can reconstruct it by asking you questions. From -what you have said, I take it that by the time you called or somebody -talked to Stanley Kaufman, the idea had been implanted that you would -need a lawyer other than Tom Howard. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who had planted the idea? How did that idea develop -that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember exactly, but it could have been even my -own thoughts, because a day or two after the shooting and the papers -started to print stories, and stories about Tom Howard, and I realized -who he was, and he was suspended at one time, I immediately thought -this was not a good lawyer to have for my brother. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was Jack’s original attitude, if you know, about -Tom Howard? - -Mr. RUBY. He wasn’t too crazy about Tom Howard, as far as I could see, -from what he told me, because he said Tom Howard contradicted himself a -few times to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But did Jack, to your knowledge, develop the idea on -his own that he should get somebody other than Howard, or was this -suggestion raised to Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know. You are asking me what his thoughts were. -I don’t know. I can’t answer that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t know if you had contact with him or not. Now, to -your knowledge, were any other Dallas lawyers contacted besides Tom -Howard before the final team of Belli, Tonahill, and Burleson? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; Belli was the main one, you know. He was the first -one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but before Belli was brought in, were any other -Dallas lawyers, or Texas lawyers—— - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked, Howard—Howard and I discussed this, -and he said he needs help, he wouldn’t mind another good lawyer. So we -mentioned several names. He talked to Percy Foreman, and Percy Foreman, -he told me Percy Foreman wants $25,000 as a retainer before he will -even step into the case. So he says, “I know you don’t have that kind -of money so that eliminates him.” - -However, later, upon talking to Foreman, he denies that. He said he -only asked for $2,500. - -Anyhow, they contacted Stanley Kaufman. Stanley Kaufman contacted Fred -Brunner. He is a Dallas criminal lawyer, very good. And the story I got -is he says, “Okay, I’ll handle the case. I will be right down to take -over.” - -He never showed up. We found out why. He is Henry Wade’s best friend, -and so it just wouldn’t work out. He just couldn’t take it. Although he -never called, we understood that that is what happened, because they -down there found out that he was Henry Wade’s best friend, and so he -probably for one reason or another, he couldn’t take the case. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any personal knowledge, however, that the -friendship with Howard was the reason that Brunner didn’t take the case? - -Mr. HUBERT. With Wade. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. With Wade. You don’t know this? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I talked to Brunner myself when I was down there later -on. Brunner said something to the effect—I don’t remember the exact -words. I ran into him in the county jail. I don’t remember what he said. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he didn’t get into -the case? - -Mr. RUBY. I am just trying to, if I can find the words or something -close to what he said. We just met in the hallway, and he said—I can’t -recall that conversation at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Brunner mention—— - -Mr. RUBY. But I had a later conversation which I remember very -clearly,—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that. - -Mr. RUBY. This was after Jack received the sentence, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Then Brunner told me that he now wants to help Jack. He -feels that this would never have happened if he had handled the case -originally, the verdict, you know, the death verdict, and that I should -talk to the family and think over about him taking over the defense. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything about Henry Wade at that -conversation? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said, “Even though I am very close,” words to the -effect that “even though I am very close with Wade, don’t let that -worry you,” or something to that effect. But I forget that first -conversation, and I just don’t want to give you words—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he mentioned Wade in the first conversation that you -recall? - -Mr. RUBY. I am not sure and I don’t want to just—no, we contacted Percy -Foreman. You want to know who else? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know. This is only that I learned from Howard. He -said he contacted Percy Foreman. He contacted Fred Erisman, a retired -judge. There is another one, another very good criminal lawyer, but I -can’t even think of his last name to look it up. Is it important? I’ve -got it here, but I just can’t remember the name. - -Oh, yes; here is another one they talked to, I understand—Jim Martin. -In fact, he was in the case more or less with Howard. Oh, that is -Charlie Tessmer, the other lawyer they contacted. And he turned it -down. Why, he never told us, but he turned it down. In the meantime, -I had talked to Charlie Bellows from Chicago who is now acting as -consultant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to contact Mr. Bellows? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, one of my close friends in Chicago worked in his -office, another lawyer, Rheingold, Milton Rheingold. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, let me ask you here, did you know a lawyer -in Chicago by the name of Weiner? - -Mr. RUBY. A lawyer? I don’t think so, not a lawyer. I know a doctor, -not a lawyer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead now with your contact with Bellows. - -Mr. RUBY. So we talked to Bellows. I talked to him, rather. And he said -he was going to be rather busy, and he wasn’t sure he could take the -case. As a matter of fact, that is who I wanted originally, because we -knew him. His office represented me before Rheingold, was in his office -with him, was my civil lawyer in Chicago, more or less, so you know at -least we had a knowledge of who we were going to hire. And, in addition -to that, he is a great criminal lawyer. He is head of the American -Defense Lawyers, and all that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you contacted Bellows before your telephone call -to Mike Shore? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am quite sure I did, and I asked him to give me an -idea of the fee because, you know, expenses. Well, he said his fee -would run anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000, because he figured it would -be a 2- or 3-month trial, plus expenses. - -So I, of course, asked him what his expenses might be, and he says it -shouldn’t be more than, if I recall, $100 or $200 a week for his own -expenses, he said, because he doesn’t live highly and knowing me he is -going to keep it down as low as possible. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Bellows now? - -Mr. RUBY. Bellows. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Ruby, had you discussed a fee with Tom Howard? - -Mr. RUBY. I did, but I don’t know when. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the fee that was finally arrived at with Tom -Howard? What was his fee to be? - -Mr. RUBY. His fee was originally, if he would stay in all the way, he -told me from $10,000 to $15,000. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many lawyers did Howard suggest would be needed -besides himself? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned the names, you know, like Bellows. In fact, -he talked to Bellows, and we were in the process of probably working -something out with Bellows, but he was too busy, and asked—then the -question came up as to whether Bellows would be a risk in Dallas, since -he is Jewish. And I talked to about a half dozen other lawyers, and I -even talked to the best criminal lawyer in Detroit, Joe Louisell. I had -a meeting with him. I asked his advice. He says, “Don’t bring a Jewish -lawyer down there.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Howard’s view? - -Mr. RUBY. Howard agreed with that. So that more or less took Bellows -out of the picture. Now, in the meantime, I am back, going to -California. So I go to California. They meet me at the airport. Is -everything pretty well in sequence up until now? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right, we will clarify. We will ask you some -questions about it. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; first the conversation, to get back to Tom Howard, -the first one or two conversations, as I said, I talked to him Monday -morning. Then I think I talked to him Monday night. I don’t remember, -I talked to him any number of times. And in our discussions we talked -money, costs. He mentioned “It is going to take a couple of months. You -have got to figure anywhere total expenses close to $50,000.” - -I never knew all these things existed that you have to hire a special -investigator, and he wants $10,000. And you have got to have an appeals -lawyer like Burleson. That is how he came in. You have got to pay him. - -Anyhow, he broke it down, roughly, over the phone he says it may run -$50,000. So that is why I started asking any lawyer I talked to, like -Bellows, “How much are you going to charge? I have got to know all -these things. Give me an idea what we have to raise.” - -Then I had all of this information more or less in the back of my mind, -how much have we got to raise to get Jack a decent defense counsel. -Then I go out to California. They meet me at the airport, Mike Shore -and Woodfield. The first thing they say, “Have you got a lawyer yet?” I -says, “No.” - -I am still talking to Bellows. He is not out yet, you see. He is not -out of the picture. Howard is still supposedly trying to contact -somebody else that is good. I haven’t been to Dallas yet. In the -meantime, as I said, he had contacted Foreman and Charlie Tessmer and -Fred Erisman. They were out. Fred Brunner, he didn’t want to get in at -the beginning. Those were considered some of the top criminal lawyers -in the State of Texas. - -So, anyhow, I meet him, they meet me at the plane in Los Angeles, get -in the car. The first thing they ask is “Have you got a lawyer?” And I -tell them what is going on. I am not sure yet. So they start talking -to me about Belli, Melvin Belli. I had never heard of him. And they -couldn’t understand it. But I never had. And I told them that, that I -had never heard of him, and so they start telling me how great he was, -you know, and all that stuff. - -And they said, “By coincidence he is in town. He is in L.A.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you arrived did Shore and Woodfield—how -long before you arrived did they know you were coming? In other words, -how many days elapsed between your conversation with Shore and your -airplane trip out there? - -Mr. RUBY. Gee, only a day or so, I think. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore mentioned Belli to you on the telephone in -that first conversation? - -Mr. RUBY. I think so, but I am not sure—I think so, but I am not sure, -because I think in our conversation in the car that we had makes me -think they mentioned it before now, because the conversation went like -this: I must have mentioned before I haven’t heard of Belli. He says, -“I know I haven’t mentioned Belli and I don’t want to push him too -much,” but then they started to tell me how good he is, so we must have -talked about him on the phone. My remark was, “But Mike, I never heard -of him.” - -So, anyhow, they said, the conversation got around that he is in town, -and, “Would you care to see him?” - -I says, “Well, I’ve got nothing to lose.” - -In the meantime, they are telling me how great he is, of course. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you under the impression that they had asked Belli to -come to Los Angeles? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was a coincidence? Is there anything -factual that happened that might suggest to you that—— - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that they probably did. I shouldn’t say did, -probably could have. I don’t want to make the statement that they did, -because Woodfield later told me that Belli promised him that he would -write Belli’s version of the trial or whatever you call it, for making -the contact to represent my brother, words to that effect. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Woodfield said this? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you heard Woodfield say it or this is something that -somebody else told you Woodfield said? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I heard Woodfield say that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Woodfield told that to you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he tell you that? - -Mr. RUBY. That was later on when he learned—this was weeks later when -he learned he wasn’t going to do the story. Somebody else—Belli brought -in a fellow by the name of Al Moscow to do the story. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The story of your brother? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The story of Belli? - -Mr. RUBY. Belli—Belli’s book on the trial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was this before—— - -Mr. RUBY. Wait, we have got to clarify something else. We are getting -ahead of ourselves. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just pinpoint time here. Was your conversation with -Woodfield about Woodfield not being able to write the Belli story, did -that conversation occur before, during, or after the trial of your -brother? - -Mr. RUBY. During, I would say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicate by your tone of voice and your words that you -are not certain as to when this took place. Could you try to think of -what the surrounding circumstances were of this conversation and other -things to pinpoint the time? - -Mr. RUBY. It wasn’t after, I know. Whether or not it was before, it -could have been just before, because I don’t remember when Al Moscow -came down the first time. - -Oh, well, we can know exactly. It was published all over the country -that Belli had signed a contract to do a story on Jack Ruby and the -trial and all that stuff, and it was all over the country, with Al -Moscow to do the writing. So we can pinpoint that. I don’t remember the -date. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I took you off the track. Get back on your track. - -Mr. RUBY. Where was I? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You said that we were skipping ahead, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think the last thing you were talking about before we -diverted into these other aspects was that you said you had nothing to -lose. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right, so that evening we went to see Belli. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Belli? - -Mr. RUBY. In a home—a used home he had recently purchased in L.A. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was an appointment made by them to see him? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; oh, yes. I think it was 7 o’clock, if I am not mistaken, -that evening. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they call Belli? Where was Belli when they -called him to make the appointment. - -Mr. RUBY. In L.A. from what they told me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but do you know whether he was at his house or in an -office or in a hotel or in a cocktail lounge or where he might have -been? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when they called to make the appointment? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember that, either. - -Mr. HUBERT. So we are at the point that you do go to see Belli. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think this is a good breaking point for lunch. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe. - -(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY RESUMED - -The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as we resume this -deposition that I presume you understand that the oath you took this -morning with Mr. Hubert and all the formalities which you went through -still pertain to this hearing. - -You are still under oath and we will continue in the same fashion that -we did before. - -If there are any questions about it why you are free to say anything. - -We were talking, it seems to me, that we got you to the point where you -had just met Mr. Belli. - -Mr. RUBY. Belli, that is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I wanted to confine your attention from here on in -to certain narrow aspects of your dealings in Los Angeles, and that is -your efforts to find financing for Jack’s trial and what the actual -financing of the trial is. - -Can you tell us, first of all, whether prior to seeing Belli, that day -that you were in Los Angeles, you talked to Mr. Shore and Mr. Woodfield -at all about the financing of the trial? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I told them we had to raise money, and I told them -Howard gave me a figure of anywhere from $25,000 to $50,000, and I -asked them about how much they thought they could obtain from a story, -and they said they couldn’t promise 50 but 30, 35, I think that was the -figure that Woodfield used. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be the gross figure or would that be what your -brother would have ultimately had available from the entire sum for his -defense? - -Mr. RUBY. That was the figure, the net figure my brother would have -left over after they took their commissions and percentage, and the -agent’s fee and all of that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were to share in the proceeds from the -sale, beside Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. Woodfield, William Woodfield. Larry Shiller, the agent, and -then they in turn said they would pay commissions to sales people. - -I don’t know who those were, of course. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this first day in Los Angeles—— - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to meeting Belli and your talk with them, did you -discuss how long the article or biography would be and where it would -be published and other details such as that? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so; not the first day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the meeting at Mr. Belli’s house, did you discuss -the biography of your brother? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What discussion took place there? - -Mr. RUBY. Just the general discussion that Woodfield would do the -writing of it. That is about all. And a figure did come up of how much -could be raised through the story, through the selling of the story. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the speculation at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. That is what I said, you know, the same figure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your meeting at Mr. Belli’s home last? - -Mr. RUBY. I would say at least an hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of the time at Mr. Belli’s house was spent -discussing the sale of the biography or the life story? - -Mr. RUBY. Probably 10 minutes altogether. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you finished—— - -Mr. RUBY. Excuse me, would you want to know who else was present there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I would. - -Mr. RUBY. Sam Brody, one of his associates in L.A., another attorney, -who was in the case for a while but if you will recall he stepped out, -and Woodfield’s wife, yes, Woodfield’s wife, I don’t remember her name—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mike Shore there? - -Mr. RUBY. No: I don’t think so. No; I am quite sure he wasn’t. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When that meeting ended there, had there been an -agreement—— - -Mr. RUBY. Excuse me a minute. - -I am trying to think if Mike Shore was there. I don’t place him there. -I am not sure he was there. I can’t say yes or no to that question. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He might have been there but you are not sure, is that -your answer, or is your original answer that he wasn’t there still your -best impression. - -Mr. RUBY. If my recollection is correct, I think he just met Belli and -then left. He had an appointment or something but I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the conclusion of your talk at that point as to -whether Belli would represent Jack. - -Mr. RUBY. It wasn’t definite yet. We talked about lawyers and he -mentioned what he thinks we ought to do, and psychiatrists we might -need—and different things that—he mentioned he would bring in Tonahill. -He worked with Tonahill before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the first time Tonahill’s name was mentioned? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain in Los Angeles that night? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I was there that night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there the next day? - -Mr. RUBY. I think I left the next—about noon of the next day if I am -not mistaken. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Los Angeles what arrangements had been made -with respect to the autobiography or the life story of Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. Nothing really definite. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Woodfield ultimately write the story that you are -talking about? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And—— - -Mr. RUBY. He came down to Dallas later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that published, that story? Just tell us -generally. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they offered it for sale to foreign countries, -publications in foreign countries, and also here through the -newspapers, through a sales organization that handles that, I think, -out of New York. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that life story serialized in a number of newspapers -throughout the country? - -Mr. RUBY. When you say serialized, I don’t understand what you mean. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was published over a period of days. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it appear in any national magazines? - -Mr. RUBY. No; not in the United States. I don’t think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some original discussion with Woodfield that -it would appear, that he would try to sell it to a national magazine? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, our agreement was that he would sell it—yes, that if he -could sell it to a national magazine that he would. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussions with him about selling it to -the Saturday Evening Post? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that discussion take place? - -Mr. RUBY. Not until later; probably down in Dallas when we met in -Dallas later on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much did the Ruby defense ultimately realize from that -newspaper article? - -Mr. RUBY. The net? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. A little over $30,000. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people get—did the Ruby defense also get -contributions from people? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; but very little, very little. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us approximately what the total of the -contributions were? - -Mr. RUBY. Contributions—are you speaking right up to today now or until -the trial? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Not until the exact day. But do you have some figure as -to what it was up to today? Roughly, what it is? I don’t ask you to be -accurate to the penny. - -Mr. RUBY. Well now, you see there are two funds, the story fund and a -separate fund that a defense committee was trying to raise. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the story fund comprises the $30,000. - -Mr. RUBY. Separate; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in that fund besides the $30,000, -or did anything else go into it? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I put in whatever donations my brother received in the -jail I deposited. It was only—I don’t think it was $500 from there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other monies were given for the defense, though, were -they not? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go into the defense committee fund? Did these -other monies go into the defense committee fund? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they were used for paying the bills, if that is what -you mean. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is, you say there are two -funds, one fund is what you call the newspaper fund—— - -Mr. RUBY. Well, you see, that—the newspaper—was more or less Jack -Ruby’s own fund. He authorized to write the story, and that was more or -less his own fund. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. RUBY. But this is a separate committee that was set up in Chicago, -and they got several hundred dollars but we spent—well, on one ad we -spent $200 for the ad and we got $205 back—to give you an idea. We kept -using the money hoping to get more money in but it didn’t work out too -well. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us who the members of that defense committee -are? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. There is Michael Levin, a lawyer in Chicago, my -brother Hyman Ruby, Rubenstein, and Barney Ross, Marty Eritt. - -Then there is another one or two in there that I am not too familiar -with. But they have got stationery. I don’t have it with me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What efforts did they make to obtain funds? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they wrote some letters and they did advertising, -as I told you. However, quite a few of the—quite a few—most of the -newspapers wouldn’t take the ad. The Chicago papers wouldn’t take it. -The Tribune, and the Sun-Times in Chicago wouldn’t take an ad for an -appeal for funds for Jack Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever given any reasons? - -Mr. RUBY. No; the answers were it is not their policy, and there was -another reason, I can’t remember the exact words. I don’t recall. But -Mike Levin did most of that, you know—the lawyer—he did most of the -calling and he told me, but I don’t remember the exact words and I -would rather not say—you know, if I am not sure of the exact words. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to say if you didn’t hear it. - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep the records for that defense committee fund? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; most—yes; I would say yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have those records here with you today? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I gave them to an agent, though. I give them to an agent -some time ago. I gave him a list of all the monies that came in, and I -think I even gave him a list of who I paid it out to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of how much money came in -altogether in the defense committee fund? - -Mr. RUBY. Now you are not talking about the story—right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. - -Mr. RUBY. From the defense committee fund between $1,500 and $2,000, -altogether. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the expenses of the fund or is this—excuse me—is -this $1,500 or $2,000—is that a net figure or a gross figure? - -Mr. RUBY. That is a gross. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After expenses, what was ultimately left for -the application to the defense? - -Mr. RUBY. I can’t give you an exact figure because I just can’t recall -all of the expenses we had, because I just paid a bill last week, -and I just don’t have it, but I would say we spent probably close to -a thousand dollars, because one ad alone was close to $300, and the -letter was another $300—is $600 already that I can think of. There were -other, smaller expenses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the total expenses were that have been -for the defense of your brother so far? - -Mr. RUBY. In the low thirties. Of course, you must understand we are -continually spending money, so I don’t have it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been given an estimate recently as to what the -total expenses of the defense of your brother is going to be? - -Mr. RUBY. An estimate? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. You mean if it goes to the Supreme Court and all that? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; have you been given any estimate as to what the total -expenses might be. - -Mr. RUBY. No; I would say no. Just said it would run into a lot of -money but no figure was ever actually quoted, except by Belli. - -You see, he really didn’t, either. He just—I am trying to think what -his statement was, now. No; he didn’t either, because at that time we -weren’t talking about Supreme Court, we were only talking about—you -know—the first trial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his—— - -Mr. RUBY. He mentioned between $75,000 and $100,000. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As a total cost. - -Mr. RUBY. Of the first trial. And that is now his fee and everything, -when you are talking expenses. I am talking everything they wanted. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of a fee did he quote to you at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. He was talking about $50,000, if I recall correctly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he quote it to you personally or is this a figure you -have learned from somebody else? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he quoted it to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how much—— - -Mr. RUBY. In other words, it wasn’t a definite figure. He said it could -be around, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have the costs of the investigation for the defense been -paid to date? - -Mr. RUBY. What do you mean by investigations? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the defense hire investigators? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And have these investigators been paid for their work? - -Mr. RUBY. Not completely. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know—— - -Mr. RUBY. Well, there is a difference of opinion so—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how much has been paid and how much is -claimed as to the total bill? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, the original investigator that we had, I think, we paid -him about $5,000 already, plus some expenses of a thousand dollars or -so; I don’t remember the exact figures, and he claims we owe him $1,500. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. More? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and there is a little dispute about that. - -Now, we have got a new investigator, I don’t know his name there. My -sister hired him down there and she has given him several hundred -dollars, I don’t know how much. I don’t know how much she gave him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Howard get any money? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much was he paid? - -Mr. RUBY. I think we paid him, I am not sure of this figure though, -$3,500. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the remaining funds that have been paid, I take it, -have been paid to Mr. Belli? - -Mr. RUBY. Belli got, I think, $11,000, if I am not mistaken. Then -we paid the doctors, I don’t know, $5,000 or $6,000, you know, the -psychiatrists that came down, and some of my expenses came out, just my -flight expenses and telephone calls, and who else now? - -We gave Burleson some money, he has got, I think, about a thousand -dollars that we gave him since the trial. He was supposed to get paid -from Belli before. That is the reason we didn’t pay him. However, -he claimed Belli never gave him anything. And we paid, like George -Senator, the witness, our No. 1 witness, we had to give him money to -live on because he was so, what shall I say the word for that, well, -he lost his job and he was so upset he couldn’t, you know, he just -couldn’t work. - -And then we had to pay—he went home and I had to send him airplane fare -to come back, you know, and there is—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Larry Crafard, did you pay him any money? - -Mr. RUBY. Larry Crafard, I think we just gave him a few dollars, $5 -maybe because he was broke when he was living on the road, he didn’t -have a dime, so I think I gave him some money. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Larry incidentally contact you any time while you were -in Detroit? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; I wish he would have, because he hitchhiked all the -way down there, and I was driving at the same time, but he didn’t know -I lived there, and we—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he notified to come to the trial? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If I remember correctly he came on his own. -He just thought that when all this came out about, you know, Jack -getting him to take that picture of Earl Warren, he had the camera or -something, I forgot the full details myself, but he is the one who took -the picture, right, if I am not mistaken, and he just thought he should -come down to help Jack as much as he possibly could. - -Could I go a little further? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really want to pry into this unless this is -something you care to reveal. - -Mr. RUBY. The most important thing is coming up now, I mean one of the -most important things. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I do want to reflect this—that I don’t want -to push you into saying things, talking about subjects that you would -rather not talk about, and I realize that this in one of them. Now, if -you do want to say something about it why, of course, we would be happy -to hear anything you want to say. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I returned home, I went from L.A. to Dallas, I talked -to Jack, I talked to Howard. We hadn’t hired Belli yet. He was going to -go down and see Jack, and talk to him before he decided to come in, -you know, and take over the case. - -I went back to Detroit and in a couple of days I get another call, I -get a call, from Woodfield. He is very upset. He just heard some news -that he thinks I must know. However, it is so confidential that he -can’t even tell it to me over the phone. And I talk to Mike Shore and -between us—they couldn’t tell me on the phone, I had better go back to -California. - -So, I go out there again. The story he tells me is that, in the -meantime he is trying to make contacts, this is about a week later. -He is trying to make contact to sell the story to the different -publications, to the Saturday Evening Post, you know, and other -publications, and somebody from the Saturday Evening Post called him, -I think—now this is what he told me—and said that Tom Howard was up -to the Saturday Evening Post office in Dallas offering for sale a -picture of President Kennedy with a piece of his head shot off, and so -I immediately, or as soon as I could, when I left them, I called my -sister Eva in Dallas and I said, “Get a hold of the agent that has been -talking—that has been taking—your story there and tell them about this -so they can check into it.” - -And then I went home, I flew back to Detroit. - -By the time I got to Detroit they had tried to contact me to get some -more information on the story. I mentioned this to Tom Howard and he -denied it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his denial a flat denial? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; you know, complete, and you know. However, I -think it was the fellow at the Saturday Evening Post that said—now I -have given all this to the special agents or, I think, the Treasury -Department. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. The Saturday Evening Post man said, “Well, let them come in -front of me in my office and deny it.” - -But, of course, we never brought it to a head. But, anyhow, I don’t -know what happened. They never told me, of course, as you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the name of the Saturday Evening Post man in -Dallas that Howard allegedly contacted. - -Mr. RUBY. No; I did originally but I think I gave it to the agents. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk personally to this man from the Saturday -Evening Post who claims he talked to Howard? - -Mr. RUBY. No; Woodfield. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody—you just reported that somebody said—“Let Howard -come before me and deny it.” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it this was the Saturday Evening Post man who -allegedly made that statement? - -Mr. RUBY. Let me look in my book. Perhaps I have it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is where did you get—who told -you—that the Saturday Evening Post man said that? - -Mr. RUBY. Woodfield. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Woodfield? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So everything you know about this transaction between -Howard and the Saturday Evening Post comes either from Woodfield or -from Howard’s denial? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; right. I don’t have it. I may have it somewhere else in -another book but I don’t have it here. - -By the way, if you are asking about the finances, we still have bills -of—altogether from what my sister tells me—of close to $10,000 that are -unpaid now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any money left in either of the funds at this -point? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I have been putting it off. - -I mean, Burleson insists he wants some money so I have been sending him -out of my personal account. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your brother shot Oswald did you see him? - -Mr. RUBY. I think it was about at least a week. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well—— - -Mr. RUBY. I am not sure. Because I made so many trips there. I was down -there about seven or eight times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before you went to Los Angeles to see Mike Shore? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I think I made it on the way back. I went to Los Angeles -first, the first trip, and then on the way back I went to Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with Jack on this first visit? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they only let you talk about 20 minutes or a half hour -at the most. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the last time you have seen him? - -Mr. RUBY. The last time I saw him was—I was there at the verdict, you -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen him since the verdict? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, oh, yes; I stayed there for at least several days, -anyhow, and I saw him every day at least once. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen him since then? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; since I came back, since that trip, I haven’t been -back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you notice any change in your brother’s -mental and physical condition between the first time that you saw him -in Dallas and the last time that you saw him in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. Physically he lost about 30 pounds, -and you know, his face was drawn and his eyes sunken, and in addition -to that he was despondent, of course, and you couldn’t—he would have -to repeat questions or ask questions from him more than once to get a -reply. It just didn’t seem to register all the time. - -Even Belli mentioned that he couldn’t get across to Jack all the time, -and Burleson mentioned to me several times that Jack is off his rocker. -This was, you know—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after the verdict or before? - -Mr. RUBY. No; before. He says, “Your brother is off his rocker. He -has got himself involved with all the Jews all over the world and he -doesn’t know what he is talking about,” but my brother did know what -he was talking about. It was Burleson who didn’t understand. Because -in order to understand—it is a Jewish problem—and most Jews would -understand it. - -Burleson, not being familiar with this, it just went over his head. I -didn’t even think of it then but he kept telling me, “Your brother has -got himself all mixed up with all the Jews all over the world and he is -off his rocker.” That was the statement he made several times to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to explore this with you at some length if -you don’t mind. - -Mr. RUBY. That is why I brought this with me. I have all of this in -here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to ask you some questions first and then we -will get into the papers that you have brought. You say there was a -disagreement, that you disagreed with Burleson’s appraisal of your -brother’s involvement with the Jewish question. - -Mr. RUBY. He couldn’t explain it. So, really, I didn’t understand it -myself. I didn’t know what he was talking about at the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You subsequently did come to learn what he was talking -about, I take it? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; it wasn’t until somebody brought it to my attention, -really. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was brought to your attention—what particular facts? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, the fact it seemed that Jack in digging down into his -past, he had an obsession about the Jewish people, and he always went -out of his way to show people that Jews are not bad people, you know, -because you know they have been persecuted over the years, and that is -one of the reasons he brought the policemen at the station sandwiches -and went out of his way to bring them cheesecakes and he was in debt -to me for thousands of dollars, yet he never sent me any money but he -always had money to give more or less or lend to these other people, -almost all non-Jews to show them that a Jew would help them out. - -A policeman became a father and was short on money, he would lend him a -couple of hundred, never got it back, never got anything back. - -Another friend he ran into needed a car to get a job—lent him a few -hundred. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know—can you give us the names of some of these -people? - -Mr. RUBY. No; but my sister has them down there. I don’t have it. But -I know of these instances, and he read all these books on the Jewish -problem, the persecution of the Jews, going all the way back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that? - -Mr. RUBY. I know from my sister. He lived with my sister and she told -me, and he told me—both. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Eva? - -Mr. RUBY. Eva; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack has told you that he read books on the Jewish -problems? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he even went to lectures on it, the synagogue, they had -movies of the killings of the Jews in Germany. He went to all of these, -things of that sort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if Mr. Hubert has covered this or not, but do -you recall an episode or a period back before World War II when Jack -showed some concern about the Jewish problem, about the treatment of -the Jews? - -Mr. RUBY. Before World War II? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. You mean—well, he was in Chicago in the early thirties, they -had the Nazi Bund meetings and Jack was always one to go and see if he -could help break them up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go on any of these groups? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well—— - -Mr. RUBY. He was about 4 years older than I am. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Over what period of time was Jack involved in trying to -break up these Bund meetings? - -Mr. RUBY. In the early thirties there, I don’t remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other people who participated with him -in those? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know their names. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a group of people or would Jack go alone? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; it was a group. But I don’t know the other names. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it any sort of organized group? Was there an -organization that he belonged to? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think it was an organization. It just was several -Jewish fellows and I don’t think they had an organization of any kind. -Just when they learned that meetings were taking place, they would go -there and try to break them up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack ever arrested in connection with any of those? - -Mr. RUBY. Not as far as I know, because he has no arrest along those -lines at all. - -In fact, the only violation he has, from what I could gather, was being -open after hours, and carrying concealed weapons which, from what I -understand, they don’t need a permit in Dallas, you know, when he -carried large sums of money. - -Other than that—you must understand I was away from him, practically -from the time he went to Dallas until the incident. I only saw him for -short periods of time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Dave Miller gang? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the Dave Miller gang? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I read about them in the paper. I was just a school -kid then, but that was a gang that hung around Dave Miller’s fight -gymnasium, that is all I can remember. But I know something like that -existed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they get newspaper publicity? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anything to do with those people? - -Mr. RUBY. He used to hang around Dave Miller’s gym but he was Barney -Ross’ follower like, and I think Barney Ross trained there and so he -was very close with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, this group that was referred to as the Dave -Miller gang. - -Mr. RUBY. Dave Miller was a referee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dave Miller was a referee? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; Davy Miller was a referee in Chicago for many years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And he ran a gymnasium? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; to train the fighters. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Dave Miller have a following of some sort? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say it was—there was a restaurant downstairs -and it was a hangout. He owned the restaurant and the gym, and he was a -referee so the fighters hung around there and other people came around -to see the fighters, so it was a general hangout for people of that -type. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Dave Miller gang have anything to do with these -efforts to break up the Bund meetings? - -Mr. RUBY. I think so, but I don’t have any concrete evidence. I think -they did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go ahead and tell us—let me ask you this, -rather. You say that your awareness of your brother’s, what we’ll call -involvement with his Jewish background or his position in society as a -person of Jewish background, was brought to your attention by someone -else. Who brought this to your attention? - -Mr. RUBY. No; what was brought to my attention, I knew he was also -interested in the Jewish problem, but I didn’t think it entered into -this picture because I didn’t—this article here that was drawn up by -Sol Dann, who through his daughter, a friend of the family, became -interested in it because he could see what was in the background, and -he studied all the things and he got some information from me and he -talked to my brother, my sister and the psychiatrists on the case, -and the more he talked to them the more he could see that this was -an obsession with my brother, who probably didn’t realize it was as -great an obsession as it actually was, and that is probably one of the -reasons why Belli mentioned to me on a few occasions, “I can’t get -across to your brother. I don’t have a client.” - -He says, “I have a patient, not a client.” - -He mentioned that to me several times. He says, “I can’t get through to -your brother.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any specific indications? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t go any further either, because I thought Belli -was such a great lawyer. I say—I don’t even remember what I said, I -just—then he had psychiatrists, when the psychiatrist would interview -my brother he would talk to him afterward, and if ever I asked, I -mean, what they say, he says, “Well, they claim he is sick, he has got -this”—I don’t know the medical terms he used, you know, and so on and -so forth, and, “We have a good case, he is definitely sick,” and all -that, but the real problem. I mean the obsession itself, I don’t think -that even registered with Belli or the other psychiatrists, because -as far as I know—because it was never mentioned at the trial, and the -psychiatrists never mentioned it to us, and we didn’t think to tell it -to them, because we didn’t know if it had any importance or not, but we -find now in talking to the psychiatrists that it is of great importance -and it was probably one of the factors in his thinking the way he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Mr. Burleson—did he tell you during this -period, when you didn’t understand what he was talking about—what did -he tell you about Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he was aloof from us. That was the big problem with -that trial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say, Mr. Ruby, I don’t want to, I am not asking you -to comment on the way Mr. Burleson conducted himself, but I am trying -to find out what it was he said to you about Jack which you didn’t -comprehend at the time. - -Mr. RUBY. He said he is getting himself involved with all the Jews all -over the world on an international scale—“He is off his rocker”—that -was one of his—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he specify any of the things Jack was talking about? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he used to say, “Jews all over the world, on an -international scale,” that was his expression several times and then, -of course, he stated, “He is off his rocker.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Burleson tell you this sort of thing before the -trial, or only after the trial? - -Mr. RUBY. Before and during, I would say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. - -Mr. RUBY. And not so much after, because after we were disgusted, I -will tell you that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the trial did Mr. Burleson begin to call -these problems about involvement with Jews. - -Mr. RUBY. Right after he got involved. Because he lived in Dallas, and -he talked to my brother more so than anyone else because he lives there -and right after he got into the case, not a few days later, he says, -you know, made the statement again, “That your brother has got himself -involved with all the Jews on an international scale and he is off his -rocker, he doesn’t know what he is talking about.” - -And to be truthful to you I didn’t understand his statement. It didn’t -register with me because they kept saying, Belli said, “Your brother is -sick. I have got a patient on my hands, you know. I am trying to take -care of your brother, and I can’t get across to him.” - -And my brother, I know, he had many fights because of the Jewish -question, of being called, you know, names, referring to his Jewish -parents and all that stuff, and, of course, I have been through it -myself but he more so, and he fought more about it. - -He was always quick tempered and just couldn’t take it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What other fights did he get involved in because of the -Jewish question? - -Mr. RUBY. Many fights. I know on several occasions he came home once -with his suit full of blood from downtown. - -He was downtown Chicago. I said, “What happened?” - -He said, “Somebody called me a dirty Jew or something like that.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he fought with on that occasion? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; there are many instances that my older brothers and -sisters know of because I was younger, 4 years younger and in his -teens, early teens, I didn’t go with him because 4 years makes a big -difference, and I went my way and he went his way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Jack at the time that you saw him with this -suit full of blood? - -Mr. RUBY. This goes back now, if I recall in 1946, I think, 1946. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after he got out of the service? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he told me he had several fights in the service -regarding this. He told me he had fights with a professional -heavyweight in the service because he said something about the Jews. - -My brother was so Jewish conscious that it didn’t make any difference -whether he said, swore at him for being a Jew or he swore at somebody -else a half a block away. He would get in there and fight right away, -you know, unless they apologized and what have you. And he—so this, -checking into it from what the psychiatrists tell me, he went out of -his way to show the gentiles that in their thinking that all the Jews -are no good or money grabbers or what have you, here was a nice guy -that went out of his way—and didn’t have the money—to help anybody he -could. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any examples of this from the period that you -worked with him at Earl Products? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, this—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s just focus on that for a while. - -Mr. RUBY. He was with me only a short period. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What examples do you have from that period? - -Mr. RUBY. I know from Earl Products is when he had that fight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What else? - -Mr. RUBY. That I know of. Other instances, I can’t think of because as -I said he went around with an older group of fellows than I did. We -didn’t run around together. And not only that, I was married then, and -you know he has been a bachelor all his life so he went to places—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You traveled with him, didn’t you in the early forties you -traveled with Jack, didn’t you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; a little bit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look back on that experience, if you can, do you -remember any episodes from that? - -Mr. RUBY. Actually, you must understand I didn’t travel with him. I -only met him every weekend. He traveled by himself, and I traveled by -myself, and we got together on weekends and then we would only see each -other Friday night and then he would go on. - -And we traveled through the East mostly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Ruby, you have brought certain papers with you, and -Mr. Hubert is now in the room, and I want to bring him up to date a -little bit on where we are, and we have been talking sometime about -your brother’s obsession, as I think you call it, with his position in -society as a person of Jewish background, and you indicated to me that -you really only fully became aware of this problem since your brother -shot Oswald, but that you have thought about it considerably since -then, and that you have brought with you certain papers in connection -with it. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder first if you can first identify a paper in your -hand, if you will identify that paper, and I will give it an exhibit -number. - -Mr. RUBY. What would you call this—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are handing me—— - -Mr. RUBY. This document. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A document that consists of 30 typewritten pages -purporting to have been prepared by a man named Sol Dann, 1820 David -Stott Building, Detroit 26, Mich. This is a Xerox copy and on the first -page I am going to write your name “Earl Ruby Deposition, June 3, 1964, -Exhibit No. 1” and I will ask you if you will state for the record what -that is. - -(Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. RUBY. Well, this I would like to get into the record if I can. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Exhibit No. 1 and then I will mark this other -thing that you gave me. - -Mr. RUBY. This is only what I want to state. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Exhibit No. 1, tell us what that is. In a general fashion -tell us what that consists of. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, this is as was stated, prepared by Mr. Dann as to why -or one of the reasons, that Ruby, that is Jack Ruby, shot Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have also handed me a handwritten -penciled set of papers consisting of three pages. - -Mr. RUBY. I was going to read that, is that all right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly. - -Mr. RUBY. That was my intention if it is all right with you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a statement you would like to make for the -record? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, go ahead then. - -Mr. RUBY. I am filing this document with you because it explains why I -need the help of the United States, and more especially, your help. - -My brother, Jack, was deprived, and is presently being deprived, of -his constitutional and civil rights. The hatred and bigotry in Dallas, -Tex., resulted in the assassination of our President. It almost cost -the lives of our present President, Mr. Johnson, and others. - -With all the protection that this Government could give it could not -guard against and prevent the assassination. - -My family and myself are unable to cope with that situation and it may -result in my brother’s death. - -As pointed out in this document, my brother, Jack, is being made -the scapegoat of this horrible situation. I, therefore, need, and -respectfully request, your assistance in order that those guilty -of this atrocity, either because of their acts or omission, gross -negligence, or commission shall not go unpunished or undisciplined. - -I don’t think that my brother, who had nothing to do with the -assassination of the President, should be the only one punished. My -family as well as myself have almost exhausted all of our resources in -an effort to protect my brother’s civil rights, but now I am calling -upon you for the help we need. - -That is it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I suggest you put the document in the record as well. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mind, Mr. Ruby, if we would put that in the record? - -Mr. RUBY. No; this I didn’t use. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will mark the three pages from what you have just read. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked them “Earl Ruby Deposition, June 3, 1964, -Exhibit No. 2,” and that is on the first page. I think on the second -page I will write Exhibit No. 2, and on the third page I will write -Exhibit No. 2. - -I will ask you if we may keep this and include this as part of our -permanent record. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit No. 2 and ask you if you will sign -it on the first page and initial each of the other pages. - -(Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, may I ask, this is addressed to whom, this -Exhibit No. 2, which you actually read into the record. Who are you -addressing it to? - -Mr. RUBY. To the Commission. - -Mr. HUBERT. To the Commission. It is your desire that we see that the -members of the Commission receive that document, is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say both your letter and the attachment? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; both. - -Mr. HUBERT. I notice that Exhibit No. 1 which is the long one of 30 -pages, has the name Sol Dann. - -Mr. RUBY. Sol Dann. - -Mr. HUBERT. I also notice he didn’t sign it. Did he actually prepare it? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you read it? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you concur in what he says then? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why he didn’t sign it? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t even notice it, to be honest with you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask Mr. Ruby, I will hand him back Exhibit No. 1, -and ask you if you will simply sign that on the first page, so we may -have it properly marked for the record. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you about Exhibit No. 2. This is in pencil? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I didn’t think that you would want it so I, of course, -didn’t—— - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you write this Exhibit No. 2? - -Mr. RUBY. Yesterday. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is your own handwriting? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -I will have photostats made of this. - -Mr. RUBY. If it doesn’t take, I can rewrite it in ink in 5 or 10 -minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you some questions to get the background of -this document which we have marked here as Exhibit No. 1. - -First of all, would you tell us how you happened to know Mr. Dann? - -Mr. RUBY. His daughter teaches Hebrew in the school where my daughter -attends, and his daughter impressed on him, after several conversations -to contact me, and see what he could do to help us because he has -been very active in helping I should say, the minority groups of any -organization. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what Mr. Dann does for a living? - -Mr. RUBY. He is an attorney. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Detroit? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man is Mr. Dann? - -Mr. RUBY. I would say 55. That is a guess, of course. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mr. Dann before his daughter talked with you -about—— - -Mr. RUBY. His daughter didn’t talk with me. She talked with him and -finally convinced him to contact me and see what he could do to help us. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Mr. Dann first contact you? - -Mr. RUBY. Shortly after the verdict was passed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you know what efforts Mr. Dann made after talking -with you, to talk with other people in order to prepare this document? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he talked with many other people, the psychiatrists, he -talked with Dr. West. He talked with Dr. Smith, the chief counsel, he -talked, with Mr. Charles Bellows, the consultant on the case. - -He talked to a psychiatrist by the name of Tanay in Detroit, and he -mentioned several other people but I don’t recall their names. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you—— - -Mr. RUBY. Excuse me; he also talked to my brother in Dallas, Sam. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say he talked with your brother Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he talked to Eva. But he talked to Dr. West and Dr. Smith -and Bellows who spent a lot of time with Jack, of course, altogether. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to Mr. Hubert that this Exhibit No. 1 had -been read by you and that it generally reflected your views. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us in your own words generally what is set -forth in Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, it goes into, it explains Jack’s thinking along the -Jewish problem, and his obsession and his love of President Kennedy, -his going out of the way to try to be an exceptionally good guy by -helping gentiles as much as he possibly could, and in any way he could. -It also explains happenings at the trial. The withholding of evidence -by District Attorney Henry Wade that should have been presented to the -court. That my brother had received psychiatric help when he was 10 -years old and none of the family knew it except the FBI, who had turned -this information over to Wade. - -However, Wade never permitted this to be used at the trial, and it also -goes into telling of many cases that were reversed because of incidents -similar to those which took place at my brother Jack’s trial, and -states for these many reasons that the verdict should be reversed for -all of these mistakes or negligence or whatever you may call it on the -part of the court and the State’s attorney. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it correct, do I have the correct understanding then, -that in a sense we can break this down into two parts: One part of the -document deals with the facts that have to do with Jack’s obsession? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part has to do with the legal errors in the -trial? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; right—correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me direct myself to some of the factual issues that -are raised by Exhibit No. 1. I have made some notes here as you have -been talking, and I want you, after we cover this, to tell me if I have -left anything out that you think is important, but I want to try to -cover this in orderly fashion. I am going backward though. - -One issue that you raised here was that District Attorney Wade had -withheld certain psychiatric evidence at the trial that had been turned -over to him by the FBI. - -Mr. RUBY. By the FBI. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was that your brother Jack had received -psychiatric help at age 10 and none of the family members knew about it? - -Mr. RUBY. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to tell us what your present understanding -is now as to how Jack happened to get this psychiatric treatment, and -where it was administered, and for how long, and the other details? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know that but the FBI gave that information to Wade, -and Tonahill has that information in Dallas but I don’t have the exact -dates. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know where he got the psychiatric aid? - -Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what institution? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say Tonahill has this information? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how this evidence happened to be given, or let -me ask you this, how do you know this evidence was given by the FBI to -Mr. Wade? - -Mr. RUBY. Tonahill. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tonahill has told you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that it was given to Wade by the FBI. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Tonahill learn about this? - -Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Tonahill—— - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he handled all the contacts with the FBI. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tonahill did? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; more or less. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your understanding that the work of the trial team -was divided up in such a way that only Tonahill dealt with the FBI, for -the most part? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so you have no personal information, further personal -information, at this time about this psychiatric help which Jack got at -age 10? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack was 10 was he living in the home? - -Mr. RUBY. In a foster home, yes; so far as I can understand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that would have made you 6, is that right? - -Mr. RUBY. Would have made me 6. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at age 6? - -Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I don’t know but I think I was living -in Chicago, of course, and I don’t remember the name. I think the name -of the people were Speeves, but I don’t know if I went to the farm, -they sent me to a farm for a year, whether I was on a farm at the time -but anyhow we weren’t together those years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For how many years were you separated from the rest of the -family as a child? - -Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I don’t know when it started. I would -say 5, 6 years maybe. I was in three foster homes that I remember all -together. I know I was on a farm, and then at two foster homes that I -can distinctly remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how old you were when you returned to the -home of your family, your mother’s and father’s home? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I think it was in 1928, 1928, so I must have been 13 -years old. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that would have made Jack 17. - -Mr. RUBY. Seventeen; I am not sure whether it was—I just don’t -remember. It has got to be a little before that. Because I went to that -Shepherd School for a few years, it had to be there from 1925 to 1928, -but I don’t know exactly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in the home when you went to the Shepherd -School? - -Mr. RUBY. You mean was I living with the family? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack living with the family at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is when we were all brought back together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack finished high school at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; Jack didn’t finish high school. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; but was Jack still attending school when he returned -to the home? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recall how long Jack continued to attend -school after you returned to the family, to your family? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I know he graduated from that Shepherd School but when I -don’t know. As far as I know he graduated from that school and then he -went to Marshall High School for a while and then he dropped out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Another thing that you mentioned that we were discussing -in Exhibit 1, that Mr. Dann had assembled some facts and had discussed -Jack’s efforts to show that the Jews are good people by himself helping -gentiles. - -Now I want you to go back and comb your recollection of the period -you lived with and worked with Jack for incidents when you can recall -of your own knowledge of Jack helping gentiles, or helping people in -general, let’s not limit it to Jews or gentiles. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, even when we were in business, we had that problem -which came up several times, where he would take some of the -merchandise, like our pens that we were using, and salt and pepper -shakers, and almost every day or two he would take a load of samples. -When I asked him he would say, “Well, a nice guy here or there and I -gave him one or two, what difference does it make”, in the meantime he -was giving them out all the time. If anybody wanted one he would just -give it to them. But at that time no remark was made as far as I can -remember as to why he did it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be able to give us names of any people who, you -know might have been the beneficiaries of this? - -Mr. RUBY. I wouldn’t remember, because I wouldn’t know where, but most -of this took place or a great part of it anyhow in Dallas, and the -names of those I think we could get. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as far as you are concerned, of course, you knew -him in Chicago, how about people that you can think of that Jack would -have extended these kindnesses to in Chicago? - -Mr. RUBY. I couldn’t remember any names because there was no reason -to remember this, and this goes back so far. It is 20 years at the -earliest. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you also mentioned that your brother had a great -love for President Kennedy. Can you give us some examples of that? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn’t realize it, I mean, because I haven’t been -with him since the Kennedy family and Kennedy himself, to really become -involved in politics because he was in Dallas and I was in Chicago and -in Detroit. However, I know that when they, I think it was the Dallas -Morning News printed that full page, whatever you call that, statement—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The black bordered advertising? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; the black bordered advertising which more or less -definitely insulted the President, he went to the paper and asked them -if they needed the money so bad that they had to print such a horrible -thing even though the other paper had turned it down. - -And I think you know he was so upset about seeing that sign on the -roadside about “Impeach Earl Warren” that in the middle of the night he -got his roommate out and got Jerry Crafard, I think his name was, to -take a picture of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why he was upset about it? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he couldn’t see why anything like that could happen. -Here is another great man, and he just couldn’t understand it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you surmising this or did—— - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I talked to George Senator who was his roommate, he -said he was infuriated that a sign like that should be put up. And that -was brought out in the trial, of course, and proved. - -Then he on the night of the assassination, or rather on the afternoon -he immediately closed the club, and when he was asked if he—what about -the other night club owners because there is another, I think one or -two clubs on the same block as his, yes, there are two more, whether -they are going to close or not, in a statement he made, he doesn’t -care if they close or not, he is going to be closed in respect to the -President. - -Then he went to the services at the synagogue in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how long he was at that service? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how long, but I know that he broke down terribly -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody who—— - -Mr. RUBY. I heard it from the Rabbi who was there, that he was—of -course, most of the people there were broken up but he was most unusual -because he was in deep tears, he really was. And he was so upset -and so disgusted with this situation that he called my sister Eileen -in Chicago and told her this is a good time to get out of Dallas. He -is ashamed of it, that this thing could happen there, and he will -probably—he wants to come up to Chicago for a few days, you know, to -visit with her. Well, she discouraged him from coming up. He wanted to -come to Chicago, and he also called my brother Hy in Chicago after the -assassination, and told him how terrible it was, and he thinks he is -going to get out of Dallas, he is coming back to Chicago altogether. - -He also called his good friend, this was all brought out in the trial, -not all of it but most of it, although those last two incidents about -him calling my brother and my sister were never entered into evidence. -We couldn’t understand that. - -He also called a fellow in California, Al Gruber, I think is his name, -and Gruber said he just couldn’t talk. He just couldn’t talk he was so -broken up. - -So we know he was really broken up, and he must have really loved him -because otherwise you just don’t do these things. And the fact that he -went to the newspaper and complained to them for even taking the ad, -and I mean nobody else did this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any examples of his conduct in Dallas before -the President was shot that would show his feeling toward President -Kennedy? - -Mr. RUBY. No; We don’t have—nothing that I know of. We don’t have -anything that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you can give us some more examples of—— - -Mr. RUBY. There is a bit about his patriotism that might mean something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that. - -Mr. RUBY. This happened many years ago. They were playing the Star -Spangled Banner in the stadium in Chicago before all sporting events, -and a friend who was with him, a fellow by the name of Mr. Kolitz told -me this himself, he was smoking. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Mr. Kolitz’s first name? - -Mr. RUBY. Ira. He was smoking when the Star Spangled Banner was playing -and my brother insisted he put out his cigarette, that it wasn’t in -good taste to be smoking when the Star Spangled Banner was being played. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your brother didn’t approve of smoking either, did he? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t smoke at all. Well, neither do I, for that -matter. But this I didn’t find out about until a couple of months ago -because I ran into this party in Chicago, and you know talking about -these things, and he says, “How could they accuse your brother of being -a Communist”, and then he related this incident to me. He says, “I -remember, you know at the stadium when this happened, and he actually -insisted I put the cigarette out.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack in your dealings with him, did he strive to be -important and did he strive for recognition, things like that? - -Mr. RUBY. I would say, well, he tried to be a success. He always wanted -to be a success in life. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his idea of being a success? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, having a family and being happily married and earning a -steady living. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about his desires to have a family? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; on a few occasions. Once when he had financial -failure and he was terribly depressed back in the early fifties, I -think, he came to Chicago. He was just terribly depressed and he says, -“Well, it looks like it is the end for me.” And, you know, he had no—he -was penniless, and I tried to help him out again there. I was trying to -look around for a business for him, to be truthful with you because we -were doing pretty well, making a living, a good living, and I thought I -could help him out but he decided to go back to Dallas again. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, there have been reports that Jack was the kind -of a person who liked, who wanted everybody to know him and liked to be -a big shot, some people might say. Did you have any experiences with -him that would indicate anything about those kind of observations? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he was pretty well known in Chicago. He always was a -good athlete, a good ballplayer. He was a very great swimmer, and he -was very close to Barney Ross, so I would say—and he had many friends, -so he was pretty well liked, and maybe some people would get the -impression that he was a big shot but actually I don’t think he ever -went out of the way to try to show people he was a big shot. - -However, maybe I didn’t notice it because I am his brother. And he was -my older brother, and so maybe I just didn’t notice it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you can explain what seems to be on the one -hand signs of his obsessions about being a Jew, such as you pointed -out as fighting the Bundists and things like that, and on the other -hand, what appears to be a lack of regular devotion to going to church -services every week and keeping the religious home, and so forth? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, the reason for that is I am more or less the same way -as I explained before because in the breaking up of our home we were -drawn away from this life, you see. I was living with—on a farm—I was -living with gentile people and there wasn’t any synagogue there to go -to, and so we drifted away from the services. And because before that -we used to go to the Hebrew school, before our home was broken up, we -all went to Hebrew school. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn Hebrew? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. Jack and—we went only until our home was broken up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living in your home, did your parents keep a -kosher home? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a kosher home? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. Oh, sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To what extent was it a kosher home? - -Mr. RUBY. We would call it orthodox, you know, change of dishes and all -that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dietary rules? - -Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is right. Sure, sure. But, of course, when we—— - -Mr GRIFFIN. What language was spoken in the home? - -Mr. RUBY. To our parents Yiddish, you would call it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your parents speak English? - -Mr. RUBY. Very little; very few words. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you willing to make this statement that your -conversations with your parents were always in Yiddish? - -Mr RUBY. No, no; I can’t say that because my father spoke a little -English. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about with your mother? - -Mr. RUBY. My mother I would say in her conversations she threw in a -word here or there in English; about 95 percent was Yiddish. My father -picked up more English words because, in fact, he was working as a -carpenter, and being out among English-speaking people more than, more -so than my mother who was home all the time, he had an opportunity to -learn some English words. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when the children got older, the family continued to -live together, as I understand it, there was a home where all of the -unmarried children and the parents lived? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In that home up until the time that your mother died, did -you observe, were the dietary practices observed all the time? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure. Every Passover we changed the dishes, and so -on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but that is just once a year. What about on a daily -basis, did you observe every day the dietary—— - -Mr. RUBY. Well, you don’t observe it every day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, some homes do. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t understand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Some homes keep separate dishes for meat and dairy -products. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; we had separate dishes until my mother passed away. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the regularity of attending church services, -temple services, did you go every week to temple services? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; not all of us. I know I didn’t. My sisters did. My -sister did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which sister? - -Mr. RUBY. Marion. My father did until he became ill, you know, and then -he passed away. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any resentment in the home toward the practices -that were maintained by your parents there, failure to converse -regularly in English and perhaps their old world habits? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t understand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which is common in all families, I think, in which the -practices that are observed in the home are not the kind of practices -that you see on television or in the movies. Was there resentment among -any of the children toward the fact that here was a home in which a -foreign language was spoken, and practices were observed which did -not appear to be the same practices as the people who were on top in -American society? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I would say so. However, my mother insisted that we -follow the lines of the Orthodox Jew. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of you object to that insistence by your mother? - -Mr. RUBY. No; nothing because there wasn’t too much to object to, -because it was the same food. I mean there is really nothing—however, -if we would take the wrong utensil, you know, because there are two -separate ones, we would be bawled out for taking the wrong one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Jack during the time that he was in Chicago lived -for various periods outside the home, didn’t he? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For example, I believe he lived with either Sam Gordon or -Alex Gruber in a separate apartment in Chicago in the early thirties. -Do you recall that? - -Mr. RUBY. I know he lived with Gruber but I don’t know how long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well—— - -Mr. RUBY. Because it was in the early thirties, I was going to high -school. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any particular reason why Jack did not want to -live with the family? - -Mr. RUBY. None that I can remember. There may have been, but I may not -be, you know, I wasn’t aware of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He also was away from Chicago from about 1933 to 1937. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think he went to ’Frisco to work there; yes. I think -he went there. I think my sister was there or he went first, I don’t -remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know his friend Leon Cooke? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; very well. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Leon Cooke of Jewish background? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with Jack’s activities with Leon Cooke -in the labor union? - -Mr. RUBY. A little bit. I think I knew—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What can you tell us about that, what—how long did Jack -work in the union? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I know as far as I know, I think he helped organize it. -It was Leon Cooke’s idea. Leon Cooke was an attorney and his father, -Mr. Cooke, was a scrap iron and junk handler, and for some reason or -another of his own thinking he decided that it would be a good idea -to organize a union because the—although he was doing very well as an -attorney without it, the workers in this industry were being paid, I -think at that time, 10 cents or 15 cents an hour, and it was actually -slave wages practically, as you can easily understand, and so they -organized the union or how they go about it I don’t even know, but they -did, Leon Cooke and Jack helped organize it, but I think Leon did all -the legal work. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of anybody else who helped in the organizing -efforts? - -Mr. RUBY. Even I went out once to hand out those flyers, you know, -“join the union.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you hand them out and what would you do? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they would come out from work and I would just hand it -to them, as they leave the plant, just hand it to them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make any personal contacts with members, with -employees? - -Mr. RUBY. No; never. I just—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people that you know of who worked in -the union with Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. I think my brother Hy worked for a little while in the union. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Sam work in the union? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so. I only went there on very rare occasions, -very rare. I may have been to one or two meetings in all. I didn’t get -paid for it either, just, you know, kicks just to hand out the flyers, -that is all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other people who were involved in the -union? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I know John Martin, he was the president. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He is the fellow who was killed? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he shot Leon Cooke. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He shot Leon Cooke. Is John Martin still living? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I know there was another fellow but I can’t -think of his name. There was a fellow by the name—I can’t think of -their names. They had odd names. Of course, that goes back in the -thirties, I think, right in there somewhere. I don’t even remember -where it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Leon Cooke a fellow about your brother’s age? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack would have been in the late twenties at the time -that he and Leon formed the union? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know what year it was even. I don’t -even remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was in the late thirties, wasn’t it. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I really don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any girls that Jack dated? - -Mr. RUBY. In Chicago? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Offhand not even one because he was, as I said, 4 years older -than I was and we didn’t run around together. I know of the one he -went with in Dallas, which was, I think she was—I don’t know if she -testified at the trial or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Alice Nichols? - -Mr. RUBY. Alice Nichols. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. She is not a Jewish girl, is she? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it seem to be Jack’s practice to get interested in -women who are, what do you call them, shiksas? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I really don’t know because I don’t know too much. You -see he traveled in a different—I am trying to think. When he was going -to Marshall High School that is when you usually start going with -girls. I don’t recall those days because I was too young. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am interested in exploring with you, if you can -in a somewhat objective fashion, is some of the contrast between -evidence you have shown us with his obsession with the fact that he was -a Jew, and other indications that, for example, his dating girls who -were gentiles and his living outside of the home away from the Jewish -practices which might indicate that he had some desire to escape his -Jewish background. Did you see any evidence of that? - -Mr. RUBY. No; that I wouldn’t—because believe it or not, when my mother -passed away and also my father, you know, we have to go say services, -we are supposed to say services for a year every day and I didn’t keep -it up, but he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack went to services after your—— - -Mr. RUBY. Mother died. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Every day? - -Mr. RUBY. Every day as far as I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this temple that he attended services at? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, there was one, I know, up—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these temples in Chicago? - -Mr. RUBY. One was in Chicago, I can’t think of the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother died while Jack was still in Chicago. When was -that? - -Mr. RUBY. 1944. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack was in the service? - -Mr. RUBY. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know he did that? - -Mr. RUBY. He told us he went to services. You can say services there -too as long as the chaplain—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he have to go before a rabbi or chaplain of some -sort? - -Mr. RUBY. Really not necessarily; it is not—because they say if it -isn’t available, you can still say the prayer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This could be something he could have done on his bunk, -his cot in the Army? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. There he had access to a chaplain though -because it wasn’t a large camp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. When I say you don’t have access, I am thinking of overseas -where it might be a small unit, like where I was there wasn’t a Jewish -chaplain. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is this occurred while he was -in the service. In order for him to properly observe mourning for your -mother would he have had to have done something so that somebody else -would have to be aware he was doing this other than Jack simply telling -them. Would he have done something in his area where he lived or light -a candle or would he have gone to a chaplain or gone in some place and -prayed where people could have seen him. What would there have been -observed by other people? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. How can I answer that. I wasn’t with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you know what the requirements are of the Jewish faith -to properly observe mourning for people. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What would some of the things have been that Jack would -have had to have done? - -Mr. RUBY. Just say the prayer, to read it out of the book or if you -know it from memory, by that time after a while you know it from memory. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And he could have repeated that to himself? - -Mr. RUBY. It is possible. But if a rabbi or services are available that -is where you usually go. But if you are at a remote place where it -isn’t possible to have services then you can say it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you actually recall Jack telling you that he was going -to services for your mother? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; definitely. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you that he went? - -Mr. RUBY. He just said he was carrying on the services but I don’t -remember now. This happened 20 years ago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is your not saying that you -recall him telling you he went to a chapel or to a synagogue or a -temple. - -Mr. RUBY. No; all he said was that he said services. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. RUBY. But as to where I didn’t think it was at that time necessary -to question him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other examples of this concern with his -religious heritage? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I told you about he read all the books or as many books -as he could on the Jewish atrocities, whatever you might call them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He did this down in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. He did this in Dallas that I know, my sister told me. In -fact, when I went there he had several books. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind, do you remember the names of the books? - -Mr. RUBY. He had one called “Eva” and “Exodus”, and another one -there that he was reading, and then he would give them away after he -finished. I can’t think of the other one. It was still there while I -was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this that you observed “Eva” and “Exodus”? - -Mr. RUBY. Right after the incident I went down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So after the incident he was reading “Eva” and -“Exodus”? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; it was before. I saw the books after but he had been -reading them before because they were in my sister’s apartment. She had -taken everything from his apartment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your understanding that he had certain religious -type books? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Books on Jews in the apartment that he was living in? - -Mr. RUBY. Right; definitely. In fact, he went out of his way as I -stated before, to go and listen to lectures at the synagogue on the -Jewish problem and the atrocities in Germany, and they showed films, -real detailed films on what actually took place and he made it a point -to be there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this occur? - -Mr. RUBY. This happened before the incident. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know. But my brother Sam told me about -this just last week that when his mother-in-law, his wife’s mother, was -down in Dallas, Jack insisted she come along to see these films and -hear the lecture. - -You see, as I said, I have to get these, some of these things through a -third party because I am in Detroit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure, sure. I want to get them straight as to where you -got them so we can follow them out. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, this is on another subject, that at one -time when you were questioned about why Jack and you had a falling -out with respect to Earl Products, that you stated that Jack was not -spending full time on the business, and that was one of the reasons? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, we didn’t think so. This was Sam’s and my opinion. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what was happening? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, we wanted him to sell our products that we were -manufacturing, and he was, seemed to be always getting involved with -selling somebody else’s product. Of course, there was a commission -involved or whatever it was, but I didn’t—we didn’t approve of it. We -wanted to push our products and so, of course, he and Sam had a real -runout or whatever you call it and then we finally decided to buy him -out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What other products was he selling? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I think he was selling costume jewelry. Well, we don’t -manufacture that. We wanted him to devote his entire interest into the -company. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would costume jewelry, could it be considered a companion -line for anything you were selling. Would he go into the same stores to -sell costume jewelry? - -Mr. RUBY. You possibly could, you possibly could, but it was our -opinion that he should devote all of his time to our products. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s responsibility in Earl Products? - -Mr. RUBY. He was actually the sales manager. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have employees working in there? - -Mr. RUBY. I was just going to add, he didn’t have any, he was the only -one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He managed himself? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he was a good salesman, too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this—— - -Mr. RUBY. Anyhow, with leading too we weren’t hitting it off so good, -and my sister Eva was asking him to come down to Dallas, so between -everything we finally decided to buy him out and he took his money and -went down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did his sales activities require him to spend most of his -time outside of the place of business? - -Mr. RUBY. Of course; oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your sales were on a mail-order basis and how -much was this direct selling that Jack may have been involved in? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, at this time, the time he was handling the sales, there -was very little mail order. It was mostly accounts that he had secured -or we had in one way or another. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What area? - -Mr. RUBY. Like Mar-Din. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was in St. Louis, wasn’t it? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; in Chicago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he travel outside the Chicago area? - -Mr. RUBY. Not too much; not too much, if I recall. I don’t recall. I -don’t think he traveled too much. - -I think, now that I think of it, that was one of our problems. We -wanted him to go down or go out of town, to Milwaukee or any of -the other cities, even close by, and definitely St. Louis where we -eventually sold Katz Drug which is a big and good account for us and -they turned out to be a pretty fair account. And anyhow as I said one -thing led to another. Eva was wanting him in Dallas and he wasn’t -getting along too well with us so it was decided to buy him out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The only other topic I want to cover with you now is the -circumstances behind you changing your name from Rubenstein to Ruby. -Did Mr. Hubert cover that with you? - -Mr. RUBY. Sort of. Well, first off, there are two reasons. First of -all, we were, I think, very conscious of the Jewish name of Rubenstein, -and we had worked for another Jewish fellow who we all looked up to, -an elderly fellow who had been very successful in business and his -name was Stanley Eisenberg and he said, “When you send out mail orders -you shouldn’t use a Jewish name because of the—some people won’t order -even if they can use the merchandise,” and anyhow he suggested we use -a different name, and so we finally decided since they were calling us -Ruby anyhow, with that in mind, and business reasons, that is, and we -finally decided to—Sam and I did first, you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You did. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and Jack did it down in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between when you and Sam changed -your name and Jack changed his? - -Mr. RUBY. Gee, I don’t know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever discuss with Jack the reasons for his -changing his name? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea why he changed his name? - -Mr. RUBY. No; it never came up. We never discussed it as far as I can -remember, we just never discussed that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is my understanding correct then that the changing of your -name and Sam’s name was directly tied with your activity in connection -with Earl Products, and thus since Hyman didn’t have any connection -with Earl Products and Jack didn’t have any connection with Earl -Products at the time you two changed your name, why there was no reason -for those two at that time to change their name? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, Hyman never changed his name, as you know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I know that. - -Mr. RUBY. I really don’t know the reason for Jack. He may have had the -same reason but since he did it there, and we never brought it up it -just never was brought into our conversations, that I can remember. We -may have—at that time it was nothing important to us, and it happened -along about 15–16 years ago, I think. I think we changed ours in 1947, -I don’t even remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish this off here now. I want to hand -you what has been marked as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition -of Earl Ruby, Exhibit No. 3.” This is a copy of a report which was -prepared by two FBI agents, White and Lee of an interview they had with -you on November 25 in Chicago, which consists of two pages. The pages -are numbered at the bottom 171 and 172. I want to hand it to you and -ask you if you had a chance to read that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any changes or corrections that you think ought -to be made in that? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, here in the first paragraph it says, “In 1946 his -brothers Jack Ruby” I think, I am not sure of the date. I think it was -1947, and Jack didn’t change his name when we did. He changed it later -in Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let’s read into the record the part you are -talking about. In the second paragraph you are talking about the -sentence which reads, “He said that in 1946 his brothers Jack Ruby and -Sam Ruby along with himself legally changed their names from Rubenstein -to Ruby for business purposes.” - -Now the correct date of your changing your name is when? - -Mr. RUBY. I think it was 1947. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And in any event Jack did not change his name at the same -time that you did? - -Mr. RUBY. That is correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Take your time and refer to them—you have notes, -refer to them. - -Mr. RUBY. Down here in the sixth paragraph it says, “following military -service Jack returned to Chicago where he resided for several months -and was not employed to his, Earl Ruby’s knowledge,” that is not -correct. - -When Jack came back from the service we immediately took him in as a -partner in Earl Products Co., so that is wrong. And then they said -about 1946. I think in 1947 he went to Dallas. However, I am not sure -of that. You probably have that date. - -I see on this next to the last paragraph where it says Earl Ruby -stated he could give no reason why Jack Ruby shot Oswald except Jack -is highly—is a highly emotional type and may have thought he was doing -everyone a great service, I don’t remember that, the exact words. I -don’t think I would have made that statement completely. I mean—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some feeling at the time that Jack may have -thought he was doing a service to the country? - -Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I was so upset that I may have made -the statement but I am not sure. You know I was—when was this, this was -the next day, right, Monday? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. That is it for this one. Some of them are almost exact -duplicates. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as -“Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby Exhibit 4.” -And that purports to be an interview that Mr. Robichau and Mr. Wilson -of the FBI had with you on November 25 in Southfield, Mich. It consists -of six pages and they are numbered consecutively at the bottom 173 to -178. - -Have you had a chance to read that over? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate what changes or corrections should be -made thereon? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, in the fourth paragraph I am not certain as to whether -my father was born in Russia and as to whether my mother was born in -Poland. I think my older sisters and brothers know more about that than -I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the experience of your mother and father in Europe a -topic which was discussed very often in the home? - -Mr. RUBY. My father’s experiences were, in telling about the hardships -of it and the persecutions of the Jews. - -I have one other correction here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. In the fifth paragraph it states here that Jack was employed -by Earl Products after he first left the service. He wasn’t employed. -He was a part owner. It clarifies it in the next sentence, however. - -Now, on page 2, the third paragraph this states here that I may have -said that A. Weinberg was a fourth removed cousin, but I find that that -is not so. She never was a cousin of ours. - -And then on page 5 in the first paragraph it states that from 1939 to -1942 I was employed as a carpenter at building the barracks at Great -Lakes. The date is incorrect. I worked there from, on in the year of -1942. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take a pen and cross that off and -correct it properly and then initial it, initial your deletion there? - -Mr. RUBY. In the last sentence on page 6 it states that Earl and his -three brothers had their names legally changed from Rubenstein to Ruby -during 1947. That is incorrect. It should be Earl and Sam and Earl’s -wife, Marge. Shall I change it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; why don’t you? - -Why don’t you sign that on the first page then. Sign Exhibit No. 4. - -I will give you Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to sign that. - -One other thing that occurred to me before we go on here. We have -obtained various birth records and so forth, and in trying to -identify which record pertains to which child, I noticed that your -parents—actually your given names were Hebrew names. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is my understanding correct that your given Hebrew name -was Isadore? - -Mr. RUBY. No; actually I was, the name listed was, Izzy, on my birth -record. Is that what you are referring to? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Izzy, I-z-z-y, that is me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what the given names of your various sisters -are? Could you relate those to us? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I couldn’t. Eileen I think was Ida, I think. The others I -don’t know. You have to talk to one of the older members of the family. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, also in Exhibit No. 3, I noticed that you -had, somebody has put some penciled mark numbers, were those your marks -and did you wish to comment on those? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, it is just an error there—that should be scrap iron and -junk handlers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, it is corrected for the record, you just state -it for the record. - -Mr. RUBY. Here is a repetition of that other one where it says I stated -he was doing every one a great service. I don’t remember saying that -and I am just not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit No. 5 and has been -further marked “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl -Ruby” which purports to be a copy of an interview with you also at -South Field, Mich., on November 26, 1963, with special agents Robichau -and Wilson. - -The exhibit consists of six pages, numbered in sequence 11 through 16. -I will hand it to you and ask you if you have any corrections that you -want to make in that? - -Mr. RUBY. Here again on page 5 it states I worked at the building—the -barracks at Great Lakes from 1942. It was only during 1942. Shall I -change it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you wish. - -Do you want to sign Exhibit No. 5? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked for -identification as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of -Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 6.” This is a copy of an interview which Agent -Robichau purports to have had with you on November 27 in Detroit, Mich. - -Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or -corrections that you would make? - -Mr. RUBY. No; no corrections. Shall I sign it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, fine. - -I will hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit -No. 7, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” This -purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent -George Parfet of the FBI. The interview took place with you on November -28 in Chicago. It consists of two pages and it is numbered at the -bottom pages 15 and 16. - -Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or -corrections that you would care to make? - -Mr. RUBY. Here on page 2 it mentioned that I had never heard of Jack -being mentally ill or depressed. However, I know he was depressed -several years ago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know that at the time you gave that interview -report, gave that interview? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I knew he was depressed but I didn’t understand it -completely. I didn’t know that it was called depression at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did it appear, how would you have described it at that -time? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, that he wouldn’t shave and he wouldn’t bathe, and he -wouldn’t go out, but at that time I didn’t know what it was called. -But after thinking it over, when he came up to Chicago once, he was -terribly depressed, as I stated before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you have described him at the time you saw him— -what would you have said was the matter with him? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I was just—let me see what words I can use to describe -it—I would have said he was disgusted, not knowing that actually he was -depressed until I really learned what the word “depressed” means. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his attitude one more of hostility or belligerence -toward what had happened rather than one of submission? - -Mr. RUBY. No; it was one of submission. He wouldn’t go any places as I -stated. He didn’t want to wash or clean himself up and I had to more or -less force him to get in the shower and things of that sort. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the things he said, though. Were these—you -used the term “disgust”—did he speak in the manner of someone who was -disgusted would speak? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he didn’t even have much to say, if I recall. He didn’t -even have much to say. He tried to keep to himself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. I mean in my presence. In other words, he would go in another -room or sit in a chair and just sit there without making—just thinking -to himself about whatever was going through his mind. He was listless. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you married at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was married. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come and live with you? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live at the time? - -Mr. RUBY. He came to the family and that is where I came to see him. -In fact, he was so depressed that I took him to try to cheer him up, I -had to go to New York for a business trip, a show that was taking place -there and I took him for a ride, we were driving anyhow, and I thought -it would pep him up a little bit, you know, to go on a trip. But it -didn’t help much. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your attitude toward him this time one of sympathy or -couldn’t you figure out what was eating this guy? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I would say he was. I just thought he was disgusted with -things, little realizing that he was in a state of depression. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But were you sympathetic toward him at the time? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; as I said, that is why I took him on the trip. I -tried to encourage him. I told him “Maybe we can find something for -you to get into,” as I mentioned before, “Some business we can get you -started in or something.” - -However, he decided, as I stated before, to go back to Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you why he decided to go back to Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall, he may have, but I can’t recall just now. - -I see another, the last paragraph on page 2. I didn’t even remember -that conversation with the agent. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the paragraph? - -Mr. RUBY. It states here, “Earl Ruby was specifically asked regarding -his residence in New Haven, Conn., in 1940. He has stated that he had -never been in New Haven, Conn., in his life and in that period was -engaged in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue in Chicago.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that statement a correct statement? - -Mr. RUBY. When we were selling we used to travel the east coast but I -would have only been there—I don’t remember being there, but if I had -been there, I would have been there only for a day. I think he asked -me if I lived there for any length of time, if I recall, but I am not -sure. I don’t recall this—— - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue at -that time? - -Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, yes; I had an independent cleaning route -at that time. I used to call on friends and pick up their cleaning and -deliver it right to their home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t operate a cleaning plant? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; but this is where I worked out of. Maybe he just cut -it short. I brought my cleaning to this plant in Chicago, on Cicero -Avenue, in Chicago, they cleaned it and charged me a wholesale price -and I added on a profit, of course. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as “Exhibit 8, -Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” It consists -of two pages numbered 210 and 211 and purports to be a copy of a report -which Agent George Parfet prepared with respect to that interview he -had with you on November 28 at South Field, Mich. - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t sign the other one. - -(Earl Ruby Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, 7, and 8 were marked for identification.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record then, you have just signed -Exhibit No. 7, and if you will look at Exhibit No. 8, tell us if there -are any changes or corrections you would make in that. - -Mr. RUBY. Here again it is almost a duplicate of the previous, what do -you call it again, number? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Interview report. - -Mr. RUBY. What is this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit No. 8, and this is Exhibit No. 7 that I -have here. - -Mr. RUBY. The last paragraph again as stated in the previous one. They -are almost identical. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; it looks like they are identical copies and they were -just included in different places in our materials. - -Let me hand it to you then and let me ask you to sign it. - -Mr. RUBY. Sign it anyhow? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Exhibit No. 8. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Exhibit No. 8. - -I finally hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit -No. 9, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” -This is a copy of a report which Agent Robichau made with you of an -interview he had on December 2, 1963, at Detroit, Mich. - -Would you tell us if you have any additions or corrections or changes -to make in that? - -Mr. RUBY. No; this is correct. That she is not related in any way to -our family. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Now, that concludes all the questions that I have, and I presume that -Mr. Hubert has or he would have come back in. - -Are there any topics that we haven’t covered that you feel that we -ought to—is there anything further that you would like to say? You have -got the floor. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think, and this took place at the trial, and after -the first policeman had testified as to statements made by my brother -Jack, that evening when I saw Jack, he told me that he is going to the -electric chair. - -He said because he never made any of those statements, and now he knows -what Wade has in mind, because if Wade wants to send you to the chair -he can, and he always does, and that is why he has the record that he -has. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who the first policeman was who testified? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t. And he told me on several occasions that he -never made the statements the police testified that he did make, and in -fact, if the record will be checked, it is proved that the statement -that Dean made couldn’t have been true—Officer Dean. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that? - -Mr. RUBY. Because at the time when he said he had been talking—that -Jack made a statement, Jack, he is the one who said Jack told him 2 -days before at 4 o’clock, I think the time was, that he stated, that -Jack told him that he was going to get Oswald. - -At that time Jack was at home with Eva, so Jack couldn’t have made that -statement to him, and, of course, this has been brought out in the -petition or motion for a new trial, so it is in the official record, so -to say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when Jack talked to you the first night after, or -after the first police officer testified, was that first police officer -Sergeant Dean, or was that another police officer? - -Mr. RUBY. No; that was another police officer. Dean was the last police -officer, if I recall correctly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell you what he did say? - -Mr. RUBY. No; but he said he never made those statements. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack—— - -Mr. RUBY. He repeated it several times on different occasions. He -said, “I never made that—any of those statements and I know how Wade -operates. He is going to send me to the chair. Now I know what he has -got in mind.” - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that I am going to give you a copy -which we have made of your three-page statement which you have entered -into the record and which is marked as Exhibit No. 2, and also a copy -of Exhibit No. 1 which we have marked. - -Mr. RUBY. You are giving that back to me because I have a copy of -Exhibit No. 1. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You can have that copy back. - -Mr. RUBY. OK. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other matters that you think ought to be -covered that we haven’t covered? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I can’t think of any. I think we have covered them all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you one last question which I started to ask -some hours ago. - -That is this: Between the time you first saw Jack in Dallas, and the -last time you saw him in Dallas, what changes did you see in him, if -any? - -Mr. RUBY. I think as I stated, he lost probably 25 or 30 pounds, and -he couldn’t seem to grasp or understand conversations or questions. I -have talked to him many times on the phone since then, and he still -thinks—in fact as of now, he don’t even think I am alive. He thinks -they killed me and my family, my children. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw him in Dallas did he have these—did -you have any trouble communicating with him, did he show any lack of -understanding when you first saw him? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; it wasn’t—yes; I must change that. There was a slight -hesitancy on his part to understand questions that I put to him. He -would shake his head when I would ask him questions sometimes and as -though he didn’t understand, and these were just ordinary questions of -routine matters, just about the trial or Belli. We discussed Belli, and -he said, even at the beginning there he said, “They don’t talk to me. -Why don’t they talk to me longer,” and yet Belli was there for hours. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t the very first time you saw him. This was on -an occasion later? - -Mr. RUBY. That is right. It had to be later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I have nothing more. And if you have nothing -more I want to thank you very much for taking this time for us. - -Mr. RUBY. I hope I can help you and I hope you can help us. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We want to assemble all the facts that we possibly can and -prepare a report that will be as fair and as impartial as can be. - -Mr. RUBY. You want me to check on that professor at Northwestern -University, correct? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you would give us the names of those employees. - -Mr. RUBY. The list I have on that. I can possibly get the information -as to where my brother received the psychiatric treatment when he was -about 10 years old. Do you want me to send that to you? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would get us that we would appreciate it, yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Shall I mail it just here the same address? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. EVA GRANT - -The testimony of Mrs. Eva Grant was taken at 3:30 p.m., on May 28, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mrs. Eva Grant was -accompanied by her attorney, Phil Burleson. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Eva Grant. Mrs. Grant is -represented by Mr. Phil Burleson, her attorney. - -Mrs. Grant, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive -Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, issued by President Johnson, -the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure -adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive -order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn -deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of -this Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon -the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to -you, Mrs. Grant, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what -facts you know about the death of Oswald, and the life and activities -of your brother, Jack Ruby, and any other pertinent facts that you may -know about the general inquiry. - -Now, Mrs. Grant, I believe that you appear here today by a request made -to you by a letter from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff -for the President’s Commission. I ask you now if you have received that -letter? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state to us, please, what the date of the letter -is? - -Mrs. GRANT. May 22. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was received by you on what date? - -Mrs. GRANT. On the following date. I think, what is today—Thursday? I -know I called here, it seems to me, Monday or Tuesday now. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you have no objection to the taking of this -deposition at the present time? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you rise and raise your right hand so that I may -administer the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. GRANT. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, ma’am? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I go under the name of Eva L. Grant. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell the first name? - -Mrs. GRANT. Eva (spelling) E-v-a and “L.” Let me explain something to -you—I married a man who used the name Grant, but the name, which you -will notice, is Granovsky, but I married him under that name and I used -that name for at least 25 years. I married in 1936, so you figure it -out. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Mrs. Grant? - -Mrs. GRANT. Fifty-five. - -Mr. HUBERT. And where do you reside? - -Mrs. GRANT. 3929 Rawlins, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you at present occupied? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the course of this investigation I hope to conduct -it in this way, that I will question you concerning certain segments or -blocks or questions that will relate to a subject. - -Under the rules of the proceedings your counsel may make any objection -at anytime and under the rules also he could ask you any questions that -he wants to at the end of the whole hearing, but I think, for ease of -handling, it would be better if he asked you his questions after we -have finished a particular area or block. I will try to indicate to -your counsel when I am passing from one to the other, so that we can -stop there and let him ask the questions as to that block, but I invite -you, Mr. Burleson, if I should overlook and pass on to the next block, -and it is obvious to you that I am, will you please interrupt and we -will then have your questions relative to that block, so that the whole -of the matter will be together in that way. - -I think that perhaps the first thing I should like for you to do -is identify the statements that were made by you to the FBI in -several interviews that they had of you. Now, for the purpose of -identification, first I am marking these exhibits as follows, to -wit: “Dallas, Tex., May 28, 1964, Exhibit 1 to the deposition of Eva -Grant.” I have signed my name to that and placed my initials on each -of the subsequent pages in the lower right-hand corner. That Exhibit -No. 1 purports to be the report of an interview of you by FBI Agents -Jack Peden and Gaston Thompson on November 25, 1963, consisting of -seven pages, and I have previously handed this Exhibit 1 to you and -your attorney with the request that you read it and make any notes you -wish, because what we want to do now is to state whether this Exhibit 1 -represents a correct version of your understanding of the facts, and I -will now ask you—have you read Exhibit 1? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. With the aid and assistance of your counsel, would you -tell us please, ma’am, whether Exhibit 1 is correct, pointing out any -incorrections—things that are incorrect—anything that is omitted? - -Mrs. GRANT. I would have to see that again; may I? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am. - -Mr. BURLESON. Mr. Hubert, I might make a suggestion here since I have -gone over it with her, possibly I could take her now and go into these -areas? - -Mr. HUBERT. That will be a good way to do it because my general -question is whether or not it is a completely correct document, and, -therefore, to the extent it is not, I think it would be best if you -would take her over to show that. - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. May I suggest that you use a system of quoting the sentence -to which you address yourself so it is clearly identified? - -Mr. BURLESON. Mrs. Grant, on page 1 of this—it is correct to the best -of your present memory, is it not? - -Off the record. - -(A discussion between Counsel Hubert and Counsel Burleson off the -record.) - -Mrs. GRANT (reading instrument referred to). Let me go ahead and say -this now—you do want me to say it—when Jack looked at that Weissman ad, -it seems to me this is what he said—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Wait, are you making reference to a specific sentence in -here, or are you adding to something? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I didn’t say here that he called. I think he was over -there. I’m almost sure, but I may have said it—will you tell him about -me? I was so sick—I mean—I was—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Well, we will get into that in just a minute. Is there -anything in this—on this first page that is incorrect as you now view -things? - -Mrs. GRANT (reading). Well, you see, right here, “he said he -contacted”—he was in the Dallas Morning News when the President was -assassinated. He was placing his ads and he was in the building from -11 until, maybe, at 1:30, and that should have been put in here and I -thought I told him that. - -Mr. BURLESON. Well, let’s refer to that—on this last sentence on page -1, it starts out with, “She stated that Jack Ruby told her that he was -at the Dallas Morning News which ran his advertisements and asked them. -‘Where in the hell do you get off taking an ad like that? Are you money -hungry?’” - -What do you want to say about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. There was a fellow there that takes his ads and his name -is Newman. I think his name is John Newman, and Jack was in that area -where this all takes place and the telephones were ringing, and Jack -says people were canceling their ads, you know, complete commercial -ads and subscriptions and the place was a madhouse. He was in the -Dallas Morning News—he went there, you see—— - -Mr. BURLESON. To this statement, though, that I have just quoted—your -answer is what? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes: but he did call me from there—he was there. - -Mr. BURLESON. That morning? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—he was in the Dallas Morning News and John -knew—— - -Mr. BURLESON. So, when you use the word “contacted”—— - -Mrs. GRANT. They used that word—that isn’t even my word. - -Mr. BURLESON. He had some contact with them is really my -question—whether by being there in person or by telephone? - -Mrs. GRANT. He bawled John Newman out. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right; I think that clarifies that. - -Mrs. GRANT. He said, “What in the hell?” And he says, “Well, I take -orders from my superiors,” that’s what Jack said. - -Mr. BURLESON. Is that the only change or the only thing that you want -to add on the first page? - -Mrs. GRANT (reads). Now, you see, let me explain this—he didn’t talk to -the Times Herald until later in the day, as far as I know. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right: let me ask you this—you are now talking about, -in the second paragraph, starting with, “She advised that he told -her he had called the Times Herald Newspaper in Dallas and they had -advised him that they had turned down and refused to accept the same -advertisement.” What about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, it seemed to be later in the day when all the -commotion had died down and—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Later on Friday? - -Mrs. GRANT. The same Friday, and if I know him, he probably was using -the Dallas Morning News phone because he didn’t leave there until 1:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything else you want to revise or change on -page 1? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I would say they were at—you know, they came with -that ad and they turned it down and that’s about it. It’s in there. - -Mr. BURLESON. Is there anything else on page 1? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, that part there that he contacted—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Well, we have already gone over that. - -Mrs. GRANT. He was in the Dallas Morning News when all this took place. -It was the greatest commotion in history in that office, and he was -crying, and he was standing against the wall, and he said there were -people—— - -Mr. BURLESON. All right; is there anything else though? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. BURLESON. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Burleson and the witness, Mrs. Grant.) - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, on the record. On page 2, Mrs. Grant, are there -some changes or revisions that you might want to make in connection -with that? I direct your attention specifically to this statement, “He -informed that early Thursday morning, November 21, 1963, Jack Ruby, as -was his custom, placed advertisements in both Dallas papers concerning -the entertainment to be offered at the Carousel and Vegas nightclubs, -Dallas, Texas, which clubs he had an interest in.” Now, in reference to -that, what do you want to add in reference to that? Was that actually -the morning of the 22d after midnight of the 21st? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, there are many weeks out of the year he would go in -on—which is Friday morning after 2:30 in the morning and it seemed to -me this was an unusual week. I have been away from the Vegas Club which -I usually take care of, but he went to the Vegas Club to pick up money -and he was on the phone half of the night, he said, calling for a band. - -Mr. BURLESON. But this date—— - -Mrs. GRANT. So, he never got that—that’s the wrong date. - -Mr. BURLESON. That date really should be early Friday morning, November -22, 1963? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Which would have been following Thursday. All right. Now, -directing your attention—— - -Mrs. GRANT. Can I add in over here something. When he was at my -apartment Friday the phone rang and Andy, who is our bartender, said, -“Jack, call Don Safran.” - -Mr. BURLESON. Just a minute, we are coming to that, but I want to -direct your attention now to the next statement after the one I just -read. “She advised that after President Kennedy was assassinated -on November 22, 1963, he called the newspapers to change the -advertisements to show that the club would be closed Friday, Saturday -and Sunday, November 22d, 23d, and 24th, 1963.” Would you care to -explain that just a little bit? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I heard him call the Dallas Morning News, because -there was a paper coming out at 10 o’clock at night and it seemed to me -that they said it was too late—the Dallas news—you know how it comes -out? - -Mr. BURLESON. The first edition? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but he said, anyway, put it in Friday, Saturday, and -Sunday, and I heard—— - -Mr. BURLESON. And it was on the afternoon of November 22d? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. That he called from your place? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. He called both of the papers? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. Then, he called the Times Herald, but in -between this, it seems that Andy called, who was in charge of the -Carousel Club and he said, “Call Don Saffran.” - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. Now, we are going to get onto that but is that -all you wanted to say about what we have just talked about? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. The next immediate following statement says, “She said -that Don Saffran (PH) a newspaper reporter for the Dallas Times Herald, -called him and wanted to know if he was sure,” and I am continuing on -page 3, “he was not going to operate those clubs on any of those three -days. He pointed out that some of the other clubs apparently were not -going to be closed for even one night. - -“When Ruby heard that the other clubs were not going to be closed, he -became quite upset and asked Don how anyone with any kind of conscience -could dance and have a good time after the President had been killed. -He ended up by telling Don that he did not care what anyone else did, -that he was going to close for those three days.” - -And that is the end of those several sentences. What do you want to add -in your deposition about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, as I said, Andy called him and he called Don and -he says, “I’m going to close tonight—tonight.” And this is what Don -says, “Are you going to be closed Saturday and Sunday?” I don’t know -what Jack said, I’ll be honest, at that time, but Jack—there was about -a 3-minute hesitation and he says, “I’m calling him back,” and this -is what I heard him say—he said, “Don this is Jack Ruby.” He said, -“Listen, I will be closed for three days—tonight, Friday, Saturday, and -Sunday,” and he says, “I don’t care when the other clubs close,” and he -says, “We’re broke anyway so—”. In other words, he felt he can’t get -any worse off than he is—it isn’t that he makes a million dollars—I -mean, that was his attitude. - -Mr. BURLESON. The rest of page 3, the following three paragraphs on -page 3 appear to be correct; is that right? - -Mrs. GRANT. But I wanted to clear this—you see, this wasn’t put in. - -Mr. BURLESON. Well, let me ask you this: We are now referring to -the first full or complete paragraph on page 3, which says, “Mrs. -Grant displayed a page from the Dallas Morning News, dated Saturday, -November 23d, 1963, in Section 1, Page 19, containing a one column ad -approximately four inches in length, stating that the Carousel Club on -Main Street, Dallas, would be closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.” -What do you want to say about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I understand the early edition didn’t have it yet. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. In reference to the next paragraph, it says, -“Mrs. Grant recalled that on the day of the President’s assassination, -November 22, 1963, Jack Ruby telephoned her at least eight times and -made three personal visits to her apartment,”—what correction or change -do you want to make? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think he came twice—one time early in the day and once -later in the afternoon with the groceries. - -Mr. BURLESON. So, where you said “three times”—— - -Mrs. GRANT. It was only two times. - -Mr. BURLESON. You think now that it was only two times? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. The rest of that paragraph appears to be correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. The next paragraph on page 3 appears to be correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. A continuation of the last paragraph on page 3 and on -page 4, does it appear to be correct? - -Mrs. GRANT (read). Could I add something here? - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, in the last sentence of the first paragraph, -at the top of the page, the statement appears, “She stated that -he discussed sending flowers to the place near the spot where the -President was assassinated and she feels sure that he did have flowers -delivered to that spot?” - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, we had a regular florist, called “Your Florist,” -but I was in the hospital and he sent dried up, thrown out flowers -that he charged, you know, a large amount of money for. I told him to -get another florist, but he didn’t. He thinks he didn’t anyway—we are -almost sure he didn’t. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, directing your attention to the first complete -paragraph on page 4, which says, “Mrs. Grant informed that Jack Ruby -was in her apartment on November 22d, 1963, from approximately 5:30 -p.m. until approximately 7:15 p.m. and then he dressed and went to the -synagogue for prayers.” What correction or addition do you want to make -to that? - -Mrs. GRANT. It was much earlier than 5:30—more like 4:30 at that -time. You see, he was there earlier in the day, but I don’t remember -whether it was much earlier—I think he came before he even went to the -newspaper office. - -Mr. BURLESON. “Somewhere around 4:30” should be “around 5:30”? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and he went home to dress. You see, he didn’t live at -my place. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right; 7:15 is about right? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then he dressed—he went home to dress from your place -before he went to the synagogue? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but I want to tell you. He looked so bad and he was so -much a broken man and more confused and I really said something to this -effect to him, I said, “Do you think you are able to drive?” He says, -“Yes,” but instead of him going home, he went to Dealey Plaza and he -was there sometime, because he didn’t get home until much later, and he -didn’t get to the synagogue until almost all of the services were over, -but he didn’t have any idea about time. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, as to this next paragraph on page 4, does it appear -to be correct as written? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, in the case that he told me that he took what Larry—— - -Mr. BURLESON. And there are some other things written, but what is -written there, does that appear to be correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. [Reading.] - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me go off the record just a second. - -(Discussion between Mr. Burleson and the witness, Mrs. Grant, off the -record.) - -Mr. BURLESON. Is this what is right, here? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; that is correct—he said he was up every night. - -Mr. BURLESON. Is this correct, then? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, as to the last paragraph on page 4 which starts on -page 4, does that appear to be correct? - -Mrs. GRANT (reading). Yes; he called Stanley from my home, and that’s -why I know, and they were talking about these signs and he showed me—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Just read this, though, and tell me if this is correct. - -Mrs. GRANT (reading). Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. Now, as to the first complete paragraph on -page 5, would you read that and see if that appears to be correct? - -Mrs. GRANT (reading). You know, I don’t know if he was there twice -Saturday or not. - -Mr. BURLESON. Where? - -Mrs. GRANT. At my apartment; you see, he was there from 3:30 on to 8 -o’clock that evening—I know he spent about 4 hours. - -Mr. BURLESON. That’s on the 23d? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. Whether he was there earlier, I don’t know. I -know Friday he was there twice. - -Mr. BURLESON. But to the best of your recollection and remembrance at -this time, this is correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was there from close to about—I would say 3½ to 4 -or 4 hours and 15 minutes for a Saturday. - -Mr. BURLESON. And you say that it appears to be correct, the whole -paragraph? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now, this is what I want to get clear. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. Let me read something into the record. With -the statement “She stated that from the remarks made by Ruby during -the 10:20 p.m. telephone conversation, that she gained the impression -that Ruby had been at his residence, 223 South Ewing (Apartment 207), -Dallas, Texas, since a short time after leaving her place around 8 p.m. -the same date.” Now, what do you want to say about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I don’t know if it was Friday or Saturday. He said -he was going to the station, and I’ll be honest with you, I didn’t -question—radio, television, or police station because it didn’t make a -bit of difference to me. I was too gone. - -Mr. BURLESON. But that does not have anything to do with this, does it? - -Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t mention what station—he mentioned a station, but -I don’t know if he went to the radio station, television, or police -station, and I don’t think—it seems to me it was on a Friday instead of -Saturday. - -Mr. BURLESON. But the statement, though, is correct as far as you know? -It may not be complete, but it is correct as far as you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, here it says on Saturday, but it is not Saturday. -I think it was Friday after the synagogue. I think he called me, and -he was in Phil’s, and he was ordering sandwiches, and I think it was -Friday. I’ll tell you the truth, I was so confused that night I don’t -know how I got anything out of him. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. Let me direct your attention to the next -paragraph: “At 11:30 p.m. that same night, he called and told her he -had been at the station where he had talked to Henry Wade, the district -attorney, Dallas County, Tex., and Russ Knight of radio station KLIF, -Dallas, Tex.” - -Mrs. GRANT. And that should have been Friday. - -Mr. BURLESON. That should be Friday night? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think they both occurred Friday night. - -Mr. BURLESON. You think the reference in the preceding paragraph that -we quoted should have been Friday night instead of Saturday night? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure when he left the synagogue he went to Phil’s, he -ordered sandwiches and he called me from Phil’s, and he said he was -going to a station. He may have told me Saturday what station he had -been at, but at that time he did not tell me. - -Mr. BURLESON. If this were in this paragraph I have just quoted about -starting at about 11:30 p.m. that same night, that should be, then, -Friday night? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure. - -Mr. BURLESON. With that substitution there, is everything else in that -paragraph true? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he just said he was going to a station. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you he talked with Henry Wade? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he did. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you—— - -Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute—the phone rang—wait a minute—there were a -group of men. The phone rang and Jack was nearest the phone, wherever -this takes place—where they interrogate people or talk to people—I -haven’t a vague idea, but yet I have been up there. Someone said answer -the phone and he picked up the phone and he said, “It’s for you, -Henry.” He told me this on Saturday. - -A man at a station, and this time I think—this was Friday night—that I -know, and he said, “Can I talk to Henry Wade?” And I think it was Russ -Knight on the other end of the phone who said, “Okay,” and they were -giving Russ Knight, who was—now, I know it was with KLIF because he was -with KLIF, but he didn’t tell me this until Saturday when he came over -but I’ll be honest, he told me when he was going to a station on Friday -I did not know whether it was radio, television, or police station—I -know he was in Phil’s and he ordered a lot of sandwiches. - -Mr. BURLESON. Would you read, then, with that explanation, and see if -these two paragraphs are correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, let’s move on to the last paragraph on page 5, -which continues on page 6. Would you read it and see if it is correct? - -Mrs. GRANT (reading). You see, I’ll tell you—I know when he got home -Saturday afternoon, he left me—I made dinner for him and he called me. - -Mr. BURLESON. Was it about 12:40? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; he called me before that, once again, I would say it -was more like 10:30 or 10 o’clock—he was still at home—Saturday he was -still home—10 o’clock. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right; let me interrupt you—Eva—just a second, and -let me read to you this paragraph starting on page 5 at the bottom, -“Mrs. Grant stated that she next heard from her brother, Jack Ruby, -about 12:40 a.m., Sunday, November 24. 1963, at which time he called -her by telephone.” Now, you say that you heard from him sometime before -12:40? - -Mrs. GRANT. This fits in here—this part here. - -Mr. BURLESON. What I just read fits back up into the first paragraph? - -Mrs. GRANT. No—on Saturday he left my home around 8 o’clock. I did not -hear from him for about 2 hours, it seems that long anyway. He called -and he said—I know exactly what he said—he said he was making liver -that George bought and getting dressed. - -Mr. BURLESON. That George Senator bought? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And he was at home? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; George was not at home. - -Mr. BURLESON. I mean, Jack was at his apartment? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; this was Saturday. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. - -Mrs. GRANT. And in those 2 hours, I assume he took a shower and from -the telephone messages he must have made five long-distance calls from -what I heard—that is Saturday—I don’t know where he went, but I do know -he called me back again and it was after midnight, and it was near 1 -o’clock, as much as I could remember. - -Mr. BURLESON. Would you continue on page 6, that continuation of the -paragraph, and see if the rest of it is correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, this is what I said—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me read that into the record—just a second. - -Mrs. GRANT. At 12:40 he was at home. From the way he talked I assumed -he was at home. - -Mr. BURLESON. Just a second, now. “She said she gained the impression -that he was at his residence.” - -Mrs. GRANT. For Saturday is it? - -Mr. BURLESON. From—for Saturday night when he called you at 12:40? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Would you read the next sentence in there and see if that -is correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, directing your attention to the next paragraph, -which is the first complete paragraph on page 6, would you read that -and see if that is correct? - -Mrs. GRANT (reading). That is correct. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, the last paragraph on page 6, which continues on -page 7—would you read that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Okay. [Read.] That’s all right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am handing you and your attorney a document which has -been identified as follows: That is to say, I have written in the -margin of this document, this consisting of one page, the words, -“Dallas, Tex., May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 2 deposition of Eva Grant,” -and I have signed my name and this purports to be of a telephone -interview between you and the FBI agent Jack Peden on November 29 1963, -and I will ask you if it is correct, if anything has been omitted, any -corrections to be made or anything wrong about it in regards to the -first paragraph, which says, “Mrs. Eva L. Grant, 3929 Rawlins, was -telephonically contacted at the Vegas Club, 3508 Oak Lawn, Dallas, -Tex., and she stated that she first came to Dallas Tex., in August of -either 1942 or August 1943.” - -Did you come here? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I stayed a very short while. It was during the war and -I lived out in Oak Cliff—it seems to me on Ohio Street somewhere. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that you were really just passing through? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but I was just here for a couple of weeks and then I -left and you see I was always on the way from Chicago to Los Angeles. - -Mr. BURLESON. Are there any other changes or corrections in this that -you want to make? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, this building—wasn’t—go back to 1945. - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me read into the record the second paragraph, “She -advised that a building was being erected at 1717 South Ervay, in -Dallas, shortly after she arrived in Dallas, and she arranged to lease -it.” - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but that was not until 1945. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1945? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure the last part of it was 1945. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1945? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure the last part of 1945. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is the last sentence in the second paragraph correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, yes; that’s correct—let me explain this—you see, when -they say I went to the west coast, yes; but I didn’t stay there too -long. I mean, it took me from 6 months to 8 months to come back. - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you this. In the last paragraph, Mrs. Grant -stated that “she left Dallas in 1948 and went to the west coast. She -informed that she returned to Dallas two or three times after 1948 and -has made Dallas her home since April 1959”; is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. I was here many more years than that. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, what is the true situation? - -Mrs. GRANT. Even if I left, I wasn’t gone maybe a half a year or 8 -months even, and then I came back and I stayed here again, and then -Jack had another club called Hernando’s Hideaway, and I was here a year -then, maybe 2 years. Gee, I was mostly here since 1948 than any place I -have been. - -Mr. BURLESON. But you did move to other places? - -Mrs. GRANT. I went to Los Angeles or Chicago—no other place than that. - -Mr. BURLESON. And with those additions and corrections, this is -correct; is that right? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I mean—I wouldn’t call any other place my home. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, that’s all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now—— - -Mrs. GRANT. You know, of course, that I went on the road and came back. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I have marked for identification a document which purports -to be an interview on December 2, 1963, of you by FBI Agent Jack -Peden, and for purposes of identification I have marked it as follows: -“Dallas, Tex., May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 3 of the deposition of Eva -Grant,” and I have signed my name and ask you the same comments with -respect to that document? - -Mrs. GRANT (examining instrument referred to). It’s going back so -far—yes; this is correct, but there are a lot of things that happened, -other things. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; we understand that. - -Mr. BURLESON. But this is correct as far as it goes, and as far as it -states? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. There are other matters, but we won’t go into those at -this particular time—this is true and correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. I mean, if you look at those States, and then look at -those, you would think I was in both places at one time, but it wasn’t -like that. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, but this is true as far as it goes? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; of course, there are some—who remembers everything—I -had a little restaurant. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, we’ll get to the next document, which is a report of -an interview on December 31, 1963, between FBI Agent Gaston Thompson -and yourself, which I have marked for identification, “Dallas, Tex., -May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, deposition of Eva Grant,” and I have -signed my name, and I ask you if that is correct and if there are -any additions or omissions, and if so please state what you think is -incorrect as to that document? - -Mrs. Grant (read instrument referred to). - -Mr. BURLESON. I will ask you about the first paragraph—is it correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, getting to the second paragraph, I’ll ask you if it -is correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, that’s what I told them because that’s what I -thought—they told me he wasn’t dead. - -Mr. BURLESON. Have you heard anything since then to the contrary? - -Mrs. GRANT. I have not spoken to anybody—to anybody who knows where he -is—whether he is dead, outside of what his name, Clements here told me -they found him—he’s alive. - -Mr. BURLESON. Directing your attention to the sentence in the second -paragraph that says, “Frank had a sister named Rose Solomon in Los -Angeles,” is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; instead of sister, it should be aunt. He only had one -sister and no other living relatives I would know. - -Mr. BURLESON. Other than Rose Solomon, who is an aunt and not a sister? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems it was his mother’s sister, and that was the -closest family. - -Mr. BURLESON. Other than one change there, as far as this statement is -concerned, it is true and correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. That is right—that’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Off the record. - -(Discussion between Counsel Burleson and Hubert.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s proceed along these lines. What I would like to -know is something of the family background, Mrs. Grant. - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m ashamed to tell you. - -Mr. HUBERT. For instance, your mother’s name? - -Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain the situation, even with my family, my -mother’s fathers’ name was Rutkowfsky. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me handle it this way—if you will just answer my -questions, then at the end of each one of these blocks of questions, -your attorney will be able to clarify anything he wants to. - -Mrs. GRANT. But this is something—there has been a mixup in the family. -A lot of times my sister would say her name was—— - -Mr. HUBERT (interrupting). If you will just answer my question and then -we will move on this way. What was you mother’s name? - -Mrs. GRANT. Fanny. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what her last name was prior to her -marriage? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s what I’m trying to remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said it was Rutkowfsky, is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think my mother’s mother was married twice. Sometimes -they used the name as Turek [spelling] T-u-r-e-k, but her father’s name -was Rutkowfsky—he was a doctor of medicine in Zimbrola, Poland. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did your mother have any brothers or sisters? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please, if you remember? - -Mrs. GRANT. One was Sarah—they are dead—do you still want the names? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am—did she marry anyone? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, I know the name real good—wait a minute—isn’t that -terrible—Moskowitz [spelling] M-o-s-k-o-w-i-t-z. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did any of your mother’s relatives—— - -Mrs. GRANT. There is another one. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead. - -Mrs. GRANT. Her brother lived until a couple of years ago. His name -was Harry Rutland, and after he arrived in this country, which is 65 -years ago, I would say, or close to that time, he changed his name from -Rutkowfsky to Rutland, and he lived for 45 years in Denver, Colo., and -he died in, let’s say, the last 3 or 4 years, I don’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did the sister that you mentioned come to the United States? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All three of the children? - -Mrs. GRANT. At different times they arrived. - -Mr. HUBERT. Came to the United States and settled in the United States; -is that right? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any communication between your mother and her -sisters and brothers after they came here? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were your aunts, in fact? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, we were very close when they were alive. Let me say -there was a great family, but they were killed out in Europe. - -Mr. HUBERT. All of these people are dead now and have been for some -time? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to your father’s side of the family, what was -your father’s name? - -Mrs. GRANT. His name was Joseph Rubenstein. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any brothers and sisters? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he had a brother that came over 2 years later. His -name was Abraham. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened to him? - -Mrs. GRANT. He died 7 years ago or 6 years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he live in the United States? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he did, in Chicago. - -Mr. BURLESON. He had settled here too, then? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your father’s employment? - -Mrs. GRANT. He was a carpenter. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he work for anyone as a regular proposition? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he worked for the U.S. Government during World War I. -Baltimore, Md.; he built barracks, he was a union member for 55 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he belong to any other clubs? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—he came from a town called Sokovosolover, Poland. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how to spell that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, we could never get it right, it’s a case of -“Sokovosolover”—we could never get it right, but there is a town there -by that name and he was born in that town. Let me explain this—his -people, country people, came to this country. From that particular -stay, they formed this club. It was called Verein, and it was a social -meeting or group where all the people from this little town and -families would get together and there are still some in existence, -believe it or not, and probably in Chicago and I have a cousin, my -father’s nephew is still alive. His name is Abraham Rubenstein. - -Mr. HUBERT. And this was a club formed in Chicago by the people of this -village who all came to the United States? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—that’s right, they did come at different times. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was a social and cultural get-together? - -Mrs. GRANT. It was a social meeting club, where all the people from -this little town and their families could get together and there are -still some in existence believe it or not. And I have a cousin—my -father’s nephew is still alive. His name is Abraham Rubenstein by the -way. - -Mr. HUBERT. And this was a club formed in Chicago by the people of this -village who all wanted to enter into the United States? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—they had come at different times. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was a social and a cultural proposition? - -Mrs. GRANT. It was a get-together to know they are alive and they have -bought a cemetery where you can in due time—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you attend any of the meetings? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything political about them? - -Mrs. GRANT. No—I’m going to tell you. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, just tell me. - -Mrs. GRANT. Honest to God, there wasn’t—they drank and they danced. - -Mr. HUBERT. But would you answer my question as to whether or not there -was any political activity discussed—the answer is what—yes or no? - -Mrs. GRANT. You may write to the man—Abraham Rubenstein, he is still -alive. - -Mr. HUBERT. I just want to know whether your impression and your -attendance at the meetings of the club indicate to you whether this -group at any time had any political implication whatsoever? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, no; not that I would know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never observed any? Of any kind? - -Mrs. GRANT. Never. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us something of Jack’s youth and education -and his childhood—you were older than he was and therefore, you are -able to observe it, I would think. - -Mrs. GRANT. I am 2 years older and how far back do you want to go—do -you want me to go? - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of education did he have? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think he went about a year and a half to high school. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were your parents separated? - -Mrs. GRANT. My parents were separated—yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did they separate? - -Mrs. GRANT. In the spring of 1921. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was when Jack was about 10 years old? - -Mrs. GRANT. Let’s see, if he was born in 1911—yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did Jack and you live with—your father or your mother? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I went to live—my mother has—these people don’t live -there any more, in Maywood, Ill., my mother’s niece—the daughter of -this Sarah Moskowitz, Bertha Miller, I went to live with her for a -while. Then my father took an apartment, such as it was and I went to -live with him for a while, and—you want to know? - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack himself? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now, this is something that there is a haziness about -it—two of my brothers were put on a farm with some people. It seems -to me—I don’t know which two—went to Woodstock, Ill., and one went to -a place called West Chicago or Chicago Heights and I have forgotten -whether Jack was by himself and Earl and Sammy went to a place. Then -later on it seemed to me Jack went to stay with a family, maybe a year -later, called the Michelles—he admired them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to state that apparently the family broke -up; is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—well, my mother had a nervous breakdown. That was -the first time, because of the dissension in the home because of my -father’s activities of drinking. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is your father an alcoholic? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he lived until 89—how can we prove it—you know, we -never knew if he was drunk or sober, but he drank plenty. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did he die? - -Mrs. GRANT. I would say in 1958 or 1959. I have just forgotten now, -I’ll be honest about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether Jack himself was involved in some -sort of juvenile court proceedings? - -Mrs. GRANT. We all were. In the State of Illinois, when parents -separated, I think there is such a thing as you are under the -jurisdiction of the juvenile court, because I went to court several -times. I don’t think—I think I was probably 12 or 13 years old—I don’t -know. I remember going to a very famous court and I can’t think of the -judge’s name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I’m trying to get at is this—— - -Mrs. GRANT (interrupting). Not for being bad or anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s exactly what I want to get at. In other words, these -juvenile court proceedings resulted, you say, from the mere fact that -you had a broken home and not from the fact—— - -Mrs. GRANT (interrupting). The Jewish Aid Society—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Just a minute, let me finish the question—this did not -reflect that the juveniles involved, whether it was you or Jack—— - -Mrs. GRANT. Or anyone else. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or anyone else had been in any trouble such as we call -today—juvenile delinquency; is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your statement to me is that although you yourself have -been in these proceedings—— - -Mrs. GRANT (interrupting). I have been in front of the judge. - -Mr. HUBERT. It has not been because of juvenile delinquency; is that -correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was a big—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Just answer my question, I think you can answer my question. - -Mrs. GRANT. I have been there several times in front of a judge and my -mother was there and the kids were there, and truthfully, it’s all so -vague I can’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that in his youth Jack was called by the -nickname “Sparky”? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us how he acquired that name? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was a horse called “Sparky” that was the -slowest darn horse you ever saw and it was a joke, you know, in the -funny papers, and they would rib him about him. Jack was short and fat -and stocky. He wobbled when he walked, from the time I remember he was -5 years old, until the time he was 8, and it seemed shortly after that -he acquired that name and that burned him up, and from then on he has -become very fast with his fists and he started hitting fellows—well—the -fellows who probably kept calling him “Sparky”, let’s say, but these -were all little boys—8, 9, 11 or 10. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that’s how he got the name “Sparky”? - -Mrs. GRANT. As much as I remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. From two sources—from the horse named “Spark Plug” or the -comic strip that had a horse named “Spark Plug” and from the fact that -he, as a child, reacted quickly to taunts of his young friends? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he changed, but the name stuck with him still. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand that, but we are just talking about how -he acquired the name. - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How would you describe the neighborhood in which you were -raised, generally, and the conditions under which you were generally -raised? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, when you discuss people who come from the old -country, that was the best neighborhood they could afford to live in. -Two doors down were some very wealthy people—the Katzen family. My -father was a carpenter and he worked—he tried to work all the time. -There wasn’t work always available, but it was considered a poor -neighborhood, but I’ll tell you—went with him four blocks away to look -over other neighborhoods. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you recall it now, would you classify it as a good -neighborhood, or a bad neighborhood, or what? Because, you see, we are -trying to get some background information here. - -Mrs. GRANT. Okay. We lived in a block where the houses have two-story -buildings. In one block between the both sides I will say there was -150 children between the ages of 4 and 15, because these families have -large groups and most of the families have 6 children or 8 and some of -them had 12. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with the modern term “a slum -neighborhood,” would you characterize it like that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not really a slum because those who had more money next -door lived better, but there were worse neighborhoods. I don’t know how -much worse. I admit to you often we talked about it. I don’t say the -middle class people lived there. It was below the middle class, but yet -it wasn’t the poorest class. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry, Mrs. Grant? - -Mrs. GRANT. I married March 30, 1930, to Hyman Magid in Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think there was a child born of this marriage? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; that’s Ronnie Magid. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, that child is what age? - -Mrs. GRANT. He will be 33 next month. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were divorced from Mr. Magid? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. What year? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think it was 1934 in Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was Mr. Magid’s, your husband’s, occupation? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, you really want to know—that’s a catchy question. He -went into business with his father and his father owned a meat market, -but that was later on. He really took up—he was a college graduate and -he did electrical work, but he never worked at it. He didn’t adapt -himself to it for some reason or other. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he do for a living, then? - -Mrs. GRANT. As far as I know he was a butcher. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean at that time. - -Mrs. GRANT. He went to school when I married him and after that he -worked with his father. - -Mr. HUBERT. In a butcher shop? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, it was during the depression. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live during the time of your marriage? - -Mrs. GRANT. I lived with my mother-in-law on Kolin Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. In Chicago? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, after your divorce, I think you went to the west -coast, is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Jack went there first. - -Mr. HUBERT. What year was that? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think it was in 1934 in January, I mean, it seems to me -it was that year. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had been divorced? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s when he went there. I didn’t go there until later. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack went first? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he must have been a man about 21 or 22 at that time? - -Mrs. GRANT. It could be. - -Mr. HUBERT. This was in 1934? - -Mrs. GRANT. Don’t hold me to 1934 or 1935. I’m so confused. I know it -was either one of the years, and he went there right after the first of -the year, and I followed 6 months later. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he went there? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, he went to work. There was no work in Chicago and -there was boys out there that said there was jobs—that there was a lot -of jobs available in San Francisco. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you live with him when you went out? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes—yes, I did; we occupied an apartment. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was you and Jack and your son? - -Mrs. GRANT. My son—I put him in a private school and Jack helped me pay -for him. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack’s occupation on the west coast? - -Mrs. GRANT. He got a newspaper crew—sometimes he worked for the Call -Bulletin, which is a famous Hearst paper, the Examiner, and sometimes -he gave us the crew and he worked for the—there was a news—it was -called the San Francisco News and sometimes we worked for the -Chronicle. You see, there is a system—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you say you worked for them, in what capacity? - -Mrs. GRANT. We solicited for subscriptions door to door. It was during -the height of the depression. - -Mr. HUBERT. This was sort of a door-to-door operation that you and he -had, was it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was a better salesman. He was always guiding me, -you know, let me put it this way—there was good money in it considering -the times, because they were paying 90 cents an order and we would go -out and get 8 or 10 or 15 orders a day, which you couldn’t get in any -other job, and our obligations were great. My son’s expenses were $65 -a month and my brother helped support half of the fellows that didn’t -work—who wouldn’t do this. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say your “brother” you mean Jack? - -Mrs. GRANT. I mean Jack—Jack was the only one out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave California? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I married Frank Grant in San Francisco in 1936, and I -think we stayed around another year or a year and a half. - -Mr. HUBERT. But did you still reside with Jack then after you married? - -Mrs. GRANT. For a while he did—yes, he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. He lived with you? - -Mrs. GRANT. We had a four-room apartment and my son was home then with -us. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any other occupations during the time you -were on the west coast other than that which you have described? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember out there anything but for the newspapers, -you know, and first he came to Los Angeles and he nearly starved to -death. He became a singing waiter and someone told him—well, he said he -was on his way to San Francisco but I think he didn’t have enough money -or gas to get there—to San Francisco. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you subsequently divorced from Frank Grant? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now—I’m divorced many years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am; that’s what I wanted to get. When were you -divorced? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think I filed in 1941. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you left the west coast about what—1937? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, I didn’t. I went down to Los Angeles with Frank Grant -and I lived there. I may have went home on a trip to Chicago, which I -did very often. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the west coast permanently? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think it was after the war broke out. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did Jack leave the west coast? - -Mrs. GRANT. He already left. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what year, do you remember? - -Mrs. GRANT. He may have left before 1940, but you see, he came back so -many times and he and a fellow by the name of Harry Epstein started to -sell premium items—a cedar chest with candy, if I remember, and they -developed a company—I think it was called the Spartan Co.—the Spartan -Novelty Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was Jack and this fellow Epstein? - -Mrs. GRANT. Harry Epstein—that’s as well as I remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any of these other friends? - -Mrs. GRANT. Who do you want me to remember? - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—you see—you must tell me. - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, you asked me—listen, I know all the fellows we knew in -Chicago and went to school with and grew up with. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps you could name some of them that you -remember. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, you see, there is a difference of friends and -acquaintances. There are people, you knew, that we just knew they -existed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think what we want to know is the friends, of -course, a lot of people you know, but those you would classify as being -friends. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was an admirer of Barney Ross that was a good -friend all through the years and Barney fought on the west coast. They -were very close. Let’s see—while we were on the west coast we were very -friendly with Izzy Kaplan, with Frankie Goldstein—you see, these people -all worked in the newspaper—they were all working fellows at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were they from Chicago originally? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; we met them out on the west coast soliciting for -newspapers. In Chicago I could name hundreds of fellows—I don’t know—Al -Kamin, do you know him—is he down on the list? He owned the Marlene -Sales Co. at one time and I think that at one time—now, let me tell -you the story about him. He and Jack were selling premiums and they -went and made a plaque. They invested every dime they could get from -my family, which was $1,500—my sister Marion and Earl—and this plaque, -now, I don’t know if it was in that year or when it was done, but it -was President Roosevelt’s head and they figured for an inducement to -give away, that was a giveaway item. It was worth about $1 retail, -whoever wanted it, but they were selling merchandise and Al Kamin had -a place at 5 North Wabash or 5 South Wabash in Chicago. I don’t know—I -was not there at the time, but I do know this plaque thing existed and -I know another thing that they went into. You know, there were eight -children and anyone who had a buck in the family, they went into a deal -where they made something about this size [indicating], and it told -about Pearl Harbor. I don’t know if you remember seeing that plaque. -They sold quite a bit of them, but to them it was a giveaway. They -sold quite a bit of merchandise—to induce these purchasers, they would -give them 10 or 15 of them. It was like a certificate that the people -shouldn’t forget Pearl Harbor. Now, that could have been—he wasn’t in -the war yet, where Earl and Sammy was already in. He went in, I think, -the last one. I may be wrong. I have forgotten—I’ll be honest about it, -but they were merchandising and this man and he were in business. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, then did you move from the west coast back to Chicago -prior to Pearl Harbor; you did, did you not? - -Mrs. GRANT. I was on the west coast—he was gone. He was in Chicago and -I think he was with Harry Epstein, I’m sure, in 1940 and in 1941 when -the war broke out. Now, he has been back to California. Other members -of the family came to visit my son and myself in 1940 and 1941, but he -was already, I think, established with Harry Epstein. Harry would know -something more about this than I do—I don’t remember, but I know they -were selling merchandise. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any acquaintenance or friends that Jack had -who had been convicted of crimes? - -Mrs. GRANT. Name them—I’ll admit to it if I know—yes—let me say this, -we knew undesirable characters that grew up in our neighborhood. - -Mr. HUBERT. You remember some of their names? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state them, please? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t want it to be in the public library. These fellows -are such nice fellows today, I heard. You know, if these things get -out, they think we are degrading them. We were raised with a lot of -people that become undesirables. They were people that lived in our -neighborhood. Some went to school with us. I know of a fellow getting -killed—he said his name was English—he was a bad character as far as -we knew. He was 16 years old and I think they killed him on a swing -somewhere in the area. We knew the family where they had three boys and -I understand—I’m going to tell you about this family, because I told -the Secret Service, Elmer Moore. His name was Lenny Patrick. Let me -explain—we knew he existed. We never associated with him in our home or -in our business or anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I wanted to ask you. You see, I have asked you -if these people were your friends or not. - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but they are people we know. We know their family—we -see them, “How’s your mother, how’s your sister?” - -Mr. HUBERT. But there was no close relationship between Jack and people -with criminal records, is that right? Is that a fair statement? - -Mrs. GRANT. If he knew any—maybe—I don’t know whoever went to jail—all -of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m asking you what you know about it. Let me put it -this way: Do you know of any people who were friendly with Jack, not -merely knew him, but who were friendly with Jack, who you knew and he -knew had a criminal record? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I wouldn’t say he was unfriendly with them. - -Mr. HUBERT. I didn’t ask you that—I’m asking you—was he friendly with -any of them? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he wasn’t associated socially or in business, yet you -saw them—they were around. If you went to a nightclub or if you went to -a bazaar. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean did they come to the home? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they come and visit you and such as that? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. BURLESON. May I inject something in there—Jack didn’t visit in -their home and they didn’t visit in yours and you didn’t have anything -to do with them; is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Even their sisters or brothers who were nice, we didn’t -have anything to do with them, yet we knew they turned out to be some -pretty rough characters and I’m not going to deny that—Sam Yeres and -Dave Yeres—let me say this, I knew of more than he knew. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any contacts that he may have retained with -any of these people after he left the Chicago area? - -Mrs. GRANT. We saw them—and we encountered them—we talked. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to Dallas? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no—nobody I know. I know one did—wait a minute—Sam -Yeres did. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did he come to Dallas? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—many years ago, but he is since dead and his -brother is in Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the last 8 or 9 or 10 years. - -Mrs. GRANT. He may have died 10 years ago, for all I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any people of the nature or character which -you have described whom Jack may have known in the Chicago district -whom he contacted or who contacted him in the past 10 years—to your -knowledge—if you don’t know, you don’t know. - -Mrs. GRANT. If they have, I didn’t know they were here, but I doubt if -he would be friendly with them. - -Mr. HUBERT. The answer is that you really don’t know? - -Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you want to ask anything about this segment? - -Mr. BURLESON. Yes, please. - -Mrs. Grant, your father only had one brother, is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. He had a lot of brothers—they died in the old country. The -only brother that came here as far as I knew was that one. - -Mr. BURLESON. Was the one you told us about? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, the juvenile court contacts that you and your -brothers and sisters had were all a result of a broken home and not as -a result of any type of misbehavior? - -Mrs. GRANT. There has never been any criminal action in my family as -much as I know. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, as to Jack’s recent last 10 years, you know of no -contacts he has had either in person or by telephone—— - -Mrs. GRANT. I want to correct that. - -Mr. BURLESON. With any person of an undesirable or criminal element? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, the way you look at it—now, the AGVA is a highly -recognized organization in the world—it is the Actor’s Guild and Jack -had a lot of trouble here with certain other nightclub owners. We had -known that a certain individual has upped himself up from racketeering -to this particular organization. - -Mr. BURLESON. Who is that individual, do you know that individual’s -name? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now, as I know him, he used to be a cocktail lounge -owner and he is in that slip. His name is Jack Yanover. We know his -parents—I’ve known the man 40 years. He’s a man 65 years old. - -Mr. BURLESON. He had some type of criminal element? - -Mrs. GRANT. Let me tell you—to get into these union deals and -everything, Jack—by the way you know Jack was a union organizer and -became an officer, but the man he was connected with was a highly -reputable lawyer. That’s why they killed him—Leon Cook. Jack himself -never had any connections with gangsters for money, for business, for -sociability. On the other hand, when we saw them we acknowledged them. -When my father died—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me bring you up to the last 10 years—do you know -of any telephone contacts Jack has had? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. With whom? - -Mrs. GRANT. Here—I’m going to tell you—in the last year he has had so -much aggravation in the club, that he called this Lenny Patrick. That -was the last resort. He figured he might know somebody—this guy is not -a holy man by far. - -Mr. BURLESON. Lenny Patrick is not a holy man? - -Mrs. GRANT. No: he’s not by far. He’s a gambler. - -Mr. BURLESON. Jack called him for what purpose? - -Mrs. GRANT. He called him for the purpose to see if he could fix him up -with the union, so he could have amateur night the same as the other -two fellows here. - -Mr. BURLESON. It’s something to do with unions? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me ask you this—what about this friend of -Jack’s—this Willie, do you know this man; what do you know about him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Willie—he is considered—— - -Mr. HUBERT. How is it spelled? - -Mrs. GRANT. [Spelling] M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that’s Louis McWillie, is that who you mean? - -Mrs. GRANT. I met him 8 or 9 years ago in the restaurant with Jack, -and Jack told me that night or the next night that, “He’s a gambler,” -in fact, I think he was the main guy at the high class club here, -Cipango’s, he ran games over there at that club and it is highly -recognized, and the town sort of overlooks him and they admire -him—truthfully, if you met this man, you would think he is a doctor or -a lawyer. - -Mr. BURLESON. Jack has had some contact with him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; not in business. He was a nice fellow. I don’t know -how well Jack knew him—I do know this man was getting a divorce. He was -married to a much older lady and he went to Jack—he wanted Jack to talk -to this lady to be sure she files a divorce, something to that effect, -because I went with him to her home. He wasn’t there. - -Mr. BURLESON. Jack also had contact by going on vacations with him, for -instance? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well; wait a minute. Jack was broke, as you know. That’s -another thing, and he was so disgusted and so blue and it seemed it -was the year my father was very ill, I think it was 1958, and that -McWillie sent him a ticket to come to Havana, Cuba, and my sister was -there—not the same time, but the same year, but there was no commotion -with Havana, Cuba, then, and McWillie—the airlines has proved that this -ticket was bought by this McWillie—that’s as much as I know. - -Mr. BURLESON. He went down there and was it for some type of business -that they had talked about? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’ll tell you—I understand—now, this was told to me -recently and I don’t even know if it’s so. - -Mr. BURLESON. It wasn’t told to you by Jack? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t even know who told me—it’s something about jeeps -and I don’t know if I’m dreaming it or thinking it. McWillie was a -gambler and they are running a game in the big casinos where all the -bigwigs out of Miami come over for a couple of nights, and that was as -much as I knew about it because I have never been to Florida or to that -part of Florida. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, as far as you know, Jack and McWillie never had any -business relationship, McWillie was just helping Jack out on a vacation? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jack was depressed and sick mentally then and we -didn’t realize it. - -Mr. BURLESON. Is that about the time he locked himself up? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; he locked himself up before that. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you think of any other person or any other incident or -anything else that you know concerning Jack and having any connection -in the last 10 years with any one of the so-called criminal element? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now, I know he went to New York to talk to a guy by the -name of Glazer, but he is considered the wealthiest booking agent, -and from what I heard years ago, this guy probably could have been -in rackets—I don’t know, but he is with the AGVA. I can’t explain -this—some of these boys have worked themselves up to—— - -Mr. BURLESON. So that the only contacts that you do know about were -through AGVA, or what you have already told us? - -Mrs. GRANT. There was nothing—I know when Lenny—he said something about -“Maybe he knows somebody in the AGVA.” - -Mr. BURLESON. Who could help them in the trouble he was having? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. He also called—there was a fellow in Chicago -by the name of—I have noticed all their names. - -Mr. BURLESON. But this is all you can think about? - -Mrs. GRANT. But if they have got names, I will answer it. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, we will get to that. - -Mrs. GRANT. I am not trying to get out of it. - -Mr. BURLESON. This is all you can think of now? - -Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain something before you even—and since this -is going in this record—I knew more racketeers than he did. My girl -friends lived in classy buildings and there were fellows that worked, -they were gambling men. The ran districts in Chicago and when I was -16 or 18, this was the prohibition. We hear all of this stuff and we -were intrigued by it, but we didn’t know who these people were, but I -knew they existed, and truthfully, all in 1 year—in the early forties -they were, as you say, bumped off, but he didn’t know them, and please -believe me I am very truthful and very honest. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go off the record now and recess until this evening. - -(Discussion between counsel off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. We will recess until 7:30 this evening. - -(Whereupon, the proceeding was recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. EVA GRANT RESUMED - -The proceeding was reconvened at 7:30 p.m. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you returned to Chicago to live some -time prior to the war, is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Let’s see—every year I went home—I may have stayed a month, -3 months or 4 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean on a permanent basis. - -Mrs. GRANT. I was never there permanent after I married Frank Grant. I -mean, if I was there—the longest time I was there is the year my father -was sick before he died. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; let me put it this way—I am going to ask you -if you know some names of people and if you don’t know them, all -right, but if you do know them, tell us what you know about them. For -instance, Frank Howard and Jack Howard—do you know those people? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; I don’t, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And a man by the name of Erwin Berke [spelling] B-e-r-k-e. -Do you know him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Never—just doesn’t ring a bell, I never have heard the -name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Sam Jaffe [spelling] -J-a-f-f-e? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Sam Chavin [spelling] -C-h-a-v-i-n? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you knew his wife, Charlotte Chavin, who is the -daughter of Sam Jaffe, did you ever see her? - -Mrs. GRANT. Where are they from; do you have an idea? - -Mr. HUBERT. They were from Chicago, ma’am, and they subsequently moved -to Muncie, Ind. - -Mrs. GRANT. I never heard of them—I never heard of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never heard of them? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever know of any connection that Jack might have -had with those people? - -Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t a close connection. We knew some Jaffes—I mean, -as kids—they were in the undertaking business, but I haven’t heard of -them in years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a daughter of Sam Jaffe whose name was -Charlotte and she married Sam Chavin? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, sir; I can’t recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then there was another daughter who married Erwin Berke. - -Mrs. GRANT. What was her first name? Can I ask you a question—how far -back does the names go? - -Mr. HUBERT. This would have been around the period of the war—1942 to -1946. - -Mrs. GRANT. I wasn’t around Chicago that much in those years—you see—I -was here and on the west coast. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, these names don’t ring a bell? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, sir; I can’t place them at all unless they are -mispronounced or misspelled, but Jaffes—I did know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know any Jaffes who moved from Chicago to Muncie, -Ind.? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. The Jaffes you did know were in an earlier period; is that -right? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And as far as you know, they didn’t move to Muncie, Ind.? - -Mrs. GRANT. In the last 25 years—I can’t place the name close to Jack -or me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Paul Labriola [spelling] L-a-b-r-i-o-l-a? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Hershey Colvin? - -Mrs. GRANT. I never heard those names. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jimmy Weinberg? - -Mrs. GRANT. We are—my mother had a niece that was married to a -Weinberg, but there is not one name like that in the family—no Jimmies. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did, of course, move ultimately to Dallas, which -has been your home, I take it, for some period? - -Mrs. GRANT. On and off for over 20 years—22 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first come to Dallas? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think it was in 1942 or 1943, I was here for a little -while. - -Mr. HUBERT. For how long? - -Mrs. GRANT. For a few months at least it seems. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of coming here to Dallas; do you -remember? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, I came to look—Al Kamin owned the Marlene Sales and he -had costume jewelry and he wanted me to sell it, you know, in little -stores and I took a sample and I didn’t sell it. I had several samples -and I went to work selling magazines for a company, it seems, out of -Los Angeles—I don’t know what year it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. This was in Dallas? - -Mr. GRANT. Oh, yes; but I mean this particular agency handles all -magazines. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Dallas during that period? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems a couple of months—I don’t know—then, I went home. -You see, I think it was during the summer—I left my son there in the -summer—I just can’t remember—honest to God. - -Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you in some sort of an export-import business? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; but that was later—I think it was in 1944, 1945, -1946, and 1947. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas on a rather permanent basis -during those years? - -Mrs. GRANT. After that—yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, I gather from your testimony you would fix a time of -your permanent domicile or residence in Dallas as about 1944? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I stayed more here—then. I was here—I would -think 3 or 4 years. Even if I went to Chicago I didn’t stay long. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand, but your home in the normal sense of the word -would have been Dallas after 1944? - -Mrs. GRANT. I would say from that time on I was just here until 1948, -constantly, well, I mean outside of every year—leaving for a few weeks. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now—what was the export-import business? - -Mrs. GRANT. We really didn’t do any exporting. That was the name of -the Berger-Grant Sales Co. Milton Berger was with me—he has since -died. We bought and sold caustic soda, soda ash, and my brother Jack -made a connection for me to sell irons—regular household irons and -lamps and merchandise, but he knew a factory in Chicago and they sent -me merchandise and Milton went on the road and through seven or eight -States in the South and I handled the business end of it—that was -caustic soda, soda ash, and we had a few accounts—the best account I -remember is the Rivera people—the Rivera family. They bought soda ash -and caustic soda from us. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who were they? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jerry Rivera, his home is in Piedras Negras—they are -still there. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what State—in what country? - -Mrs. GRANT. Isn’t that right over the border in Mexico? - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—Piedras Negras—is that it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. It’s in Mexico? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but he lived in San Antonio a great deal and in -Houston he had an office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is he alive? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was the last contact with him? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think I saw him about 4 years ago—maybe 5. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what connection, do you recall? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he came through—he was at one of the motels and he -called my brother and I went out and had dinner with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. He called Jack, you mean? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—now, there are several brothers in the family, and I -even met his parents the previous year. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any connection with that Rivera family or any -member of it in the last 4 or 5 years? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but I do know I met his mother and father. They came to -Chicago in one of the summers—like in the middle fifties when I was up -there. They had called our home in Chicago and his parents were staying -at the Palmer House. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any connection whatsoever between your -brother, Jack Ruby, and any member of the Rivera family in the last 4 -or 5 years? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he had any business with them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or any connection otherwise? - -Mrs. GRANT. He only knew them through me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any connection in any way—business, social, -or otherwise, in the last 5 years? - -Mrs. GRANT. Nothing—nothing. I am here now exactly a little over 4 -years and I have not left this city for 4 years, outside of going to -Hot Springs once for 3 days. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Paul Roland Jones? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us what you know about him? - -Mrs. GRANT. I was going with a fellow by the name of Dr. Weldon Duncan. -This fellow was here in town, at least he was 2 weeks ago—now—he is a -chiropractor and he knew this Roland Jones and Roland told me—that’s -it. He told me he was in the export business, not in the export -business exactly, wait a minute—brokerage business—of eggs. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you meet Paul Roland Jones first? - -Mrs. GRANT. When I knew him well was before you see, we didn’t have -enough money to open the club. Jack was still in the service and Jack -says he will sell his interest in the Earl Products—he was in business -with the other brothers, do you have it there? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mrs. GRANT. OK—well, Jack says when he gets out of this he will send me -some money and that could have been the fall or summer of 1947. That -seems to be it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell me how you got to meet him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Dr. Duncan brought him over. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a friend or in what way? - -Mrs. GRANT. They came to the club—I mean—just came to that club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which club was that? - -Mrs. GRANT. It was called the Singapore Supper Club at 1717 South Ervay. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were running that club? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; the club was not open—we didn’t have chairs or tables. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, they came to this place then that was called the -Singapore Club that was not yet open? - -Mrs. GRANT. And I used the office of the club for my other merchandise -business. In fact, the club was full with lamps and all other kinds of -things. - -Mr. HUBERT. And this doctor introduced you to Roland Paul Jones? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have any further connections with Roland Paul -Jones? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that, please? - -Mrs. GRANT. We were buying metals, at least we were trying to buy -metals and materials to sell to—in fact, gas companies—one is—I have -the files, believe me, and I think it’s at Jonesboro—is it in Arkansas -or Oklahoma? Well, we got the specifications and Paul Roland Jones -brought me a piece of metal, maybe 6 inches long—it’s a certain type of -pipe, rather, he brought me, and this man didn’t want it, so I sent it -on to Chicago to my brother. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which brother? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I sent it to my older brother, Hyman, and -he says he knew somebody that might be able to use the amount of -footage we had at this place, and we were going to make what you call -a finder’s fee or broker’s fee, but little did we know of Paul Roland -Jones’ connection, because I’m going to tell you. This man told me -several things—“I’m not fit to be in the night club business, I’m not -the caliber of a person.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was that—Jones told you that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and he seemed to be a very nice fellow and he used my -phone for a long distance call to Ardmore, Okla., and I know he paid me -$2 or $3 in change when he did it, and I didn’t know a thing about this. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what, ma’am? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, I pick up the headlines and they -got Paul Roland Jones in jail somewhere—in Fort Worth. I no sooner -picked this up—this paper, the paper of this city, my brother is -calling me from Chicago that the FBI or some organization, one of your -organizations went to the Congress Hotel where Jack was staying and -they are questioning him about whether—about what he knew about Paul -Roland Jones. I don’t think Jack ever heard me mention the name. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known Paul Roland Jones when this occurred? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not too many months—if it was 6 months or 8 months—it was -the longest. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you done any business with him? - -Mrs Grant. No—never. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was simply through meeting at the club? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, this doctor brought him in one afternoon. He knew him -because he went to him for treatment. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s the first meeting, but thereafter, what was -the basis of the meeting? - -Mrs. GRANT. Nothing. I mean, he came in, and I went to dinner with him -and the doctor once, and we went for a ride, but I’ll tell you, the -doctor and I didn’t know anything about his background. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was ultimately charged, was he not, with the possession -of narcotics? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; in fact, we read the story that night. We were -shocked. We knew he took trips, we knew he was married to a dancer in -New York, but this all came out—wait a minute, his wife came from New -York that summer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, we’ll get into that later. Did Jack know Paul Roland -Jones at that time? - -Mrs. GRANT. If he did—no; I doubt if he ever even heard of him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack had not come down here yet? - -Mrs. GRANT. If he was, he didn’t stay long. - -Mr. HUBERT. But to your recollection he didn’t know Jones at all? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he has ever seen him—well, wait a minute, he -may have seen the man or heard about him. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but at the time of this episode that you -are telling us about? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he ever saw him as far as I know, but I -want to tell you that Roland Jones went to Chicago during the period -of those 6 months and he did meet my brother Hyman. I don’t know what -conversation my brother had—my brother thought he was a nice guy—we -didn’t know anything about his background. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what happened to him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he went to jail for something about narcotics from -Turkey or something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other charges later against him? Do you -know? - -Mrs. GRANT. Do you want to know something—I went into a hotel here, and -let me think, either the Whitmore or the Southland since he has been -out, or when he got out, and this friend of mine said, “Guess who got -out of jail?” He said “Paul Roland Jones,” and I said, “That’s nice.” - -Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that? - -Mrs. GRANT. This must be 7 years or 8 years—it seems like a long time -ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he was here 2 years ago, I think. He came through -and he stopped by the Vegas Club one night. Oh, he says, he got in a -cab and he was coming through—he probably was here other times but he -didn’t want anybody to know—he said he was coming through changing -planes and he says he’s sure going to be picked up and he says to say -hello to Jack. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Maybe a year and a half or 2 years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him in November 1963? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him on the phone? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know he was in Dallas? - -Mrs Grant. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you know that would indicate that your -brother, Jack, knew he was in Dallas? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. - -Mr. HUBERT. In November 1963? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. I’ll tell you how I figure this out, if I can -go see my contract—you see, my band leader was making a record, you -know, a record of music. - -Mr. HUBERT. But so far as your recollection is concerned, it would be -over a year from today? - -Mrs. GRANT. Easy—easy. - -Mr. HUBERT. And by “contact with him,” of course, I mean—you -know—telephone, letters, messages? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; he came in—he told me that he knows people at Mercury -Records and that if I send in the song he was going to make it, and -truthfully, I was glad when he came in, when he left, for more reasons -than one. We don’t discuss his background or anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, that’s over a year ago—certainly. - -Mrs. GRANT. It has been so long—I say a year and a half—the airlines -would know quicker than I know because he said he just flew in and he -was just there for the evening and going back out, at least that’s what -he told me. I don’t discuss his background or anything like that—at -least, that’s what he told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Taylor Crossley? - -Mrs. GRANT. What is the first name? - -Mr. HUBERT. Taylor [spelling] T-a-y-l-o-r. - -Mrs. GRANT. I know a lot of Taylors here but that is the last name. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; Crossley. John Melton, and Morris Melton [spelling] -M-e-l-t-o-n? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know a person by the name of Elsie Johnson? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you know her? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, 8 or 9 years ago she was in the building business -with my brother, Sam. Before that—she was a commercial artist. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet her—when did you meet her? - -Mrs. GRANT. When I first came here, and honest to God, this is one -person I can’t tell you even how I met her. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you first came here—when do you mean? - -Mrs. GRANT. I would say 20 years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. 1944—probably? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and let me tell you, she knew a girl, Bobby, whether I -met Bobby first—she’s a little girl that worked as a cashier at one of -the theatres and was it that she introduced me to Bobby—I knew her very -well and her sister and her mother and her brothers, and she became a -preacher. She ordained herself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is she a friend of yours? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I don’t know if she is an enemy—I just don’t know—it -has been years since I have seen her. I spoke to her on the phone. It -seemed to me she called me November 24, that afternoon, or her sister -did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is her sister? - -Mrs. GRANT. Mary Sue Brown, and I think she worked at Green’s -Department Store. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you knew Mary Sue Brown also? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; I knew the family. I used to go out there like -maybe once a year—Elsie had a car and she would drive me to her -mother’s home, which is Mrs. Barnes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do they still live in the Dallas area? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure they do—I probably have their phone number. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your thought is that the last time you heard from them -was that there was a call from Elsie? - -Mrs. GRANT. How sorry she was about my brother—it was on November the -24th. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the last contact you had with her? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; I saw Mary, let’s see, I saw Mary Sue—I went to one -of the stores—I think it was H. L. Green’s and she was waiting on the -people, I mean, she was a saleswoman in the store. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that’s since? - -Mrs. GRANT. I haven’t seen Mary Sue for maybe a year and a half -previously or Elsie, maybe, I don’t think I have seen Elsie since I am -back this time—3 or 4 years—I can’t remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any difficulty between you and Elsie concerning -some ring? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; the other sister. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mary Sue Brown? - -Mrs. GRANT. Mary Sue Brown. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, she used to come over and stay overnight and I have -this diamond ring yet, and it had a little stone in there my mother -had given me. There were many stones—from two marriage rings, and a -fellow gave me a little stone and my mother’s little—you know, a little -diamond—little diamonds. I went to take a bath and I had my money in -this purse and it’s a terrible thing—very terrible—it kills me to this -day even thinking about it—she was going to stay another day, and I -knew how much money I had on me the day before and I bought a little -dress and some things I bought. I took her to dinner and stuff like -that. She managed to wiggle out of not staying any more. She was very -nervous, and that night I get to the club and I put my ring out and you -could see the prongs were bent back—the stone was missing, the center -stone, which was about, a third of a carat. I called some friends of -mine—— - -Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think it’s a year and a half—maybe 2 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, go on. - -Mrs. GRANT. I just don’t remember. Anyway, I called—the vice squad came -in very often to the club and I was really very friendly with a fellow -by the name of Mike, and I don’t remember who he had with him, and they -took the ring to the laboratory—they proved that someone had—I can’t -explain it—they said—— - -Mr. HUBERT. They said that they had taken the stone out by force? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; something like that. Anyway, the thing is, any other -thing I wouldn’t have cared about, but that stone, my mother gave me -and she swore she didn’t do anything about it, but I’ll tell you, there -was some money missing out of my purse and I never felt right about it, -and her nervousness in getting out of the apartment and all. - -Mr. HUBERT. You made no charges? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; I just wished the whole thing hadn’t happened, but I -told her I wanted the stone back. I didn’t care about the money—I just -was sick. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you during the war done any kind of trading in sugar -stamps? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s not true? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; I never had any extra stamps outside of what my family -had. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever boast to anyone or say to anyone in any way -that you had connections with the Capone gang? - -Mrs. GRANT. Aw—let me tell you, when I came to Dallas—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Just answer the question. - -Mrs. GRANT. No, sir. And it just kills me—connections—I had no -connections. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a Lois, or perhaps it’s Louis Green? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now, I didn’t know him. He was in this town. The -conversation was great about him. He did not know me—he wouldn’t know -me if he saw me and I understand he’s dead. There was absolutely—the -man never even talked to me. I wouldn’t know him—short, tall, or -anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. You never met him? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; not to my knowledge—no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the circumstances of his death? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think I was here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he die—how long ago, do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t know, but I was hurt—you know what I -mean—there were certain individuals I read about in the papers. I know -he was considered a character. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was with the rough element—he never worked. - -Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas, you mean? - -Mrs. GRANT. In Dallas—he was a Dallas man, as much as—-you know, when -you are in the night club business, you see a lot of undesirable -people, but you are not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you got into the night club business yourself. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, when I was on the west coast I ran a restaurant in -back of a bar and it seemed to be quite a lucrative business. That was -Frankie Nolan’s place on Sunset Boulevard. Now, whether that was the -second place or the first place—I don’t know, but then I once went with -a fellow, Harvey Brooker, and his mother had a restaurant and I learned -to manage that. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in San Francisco? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; it was in Los Angeles—both these places were in Los -Angeles. - -Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking particularly about the Dallas area. - -Mrs. GRANT. Then, when I came here and I worked for Harvey Phillips, -the Southwest Tool & Die Co., some real estate man who he was -acquainted with, Fred Shinskey, said, “You know, I know a good spot -where the landlord wants to build a restaurant and night club,” and -Jack got money from the Earl Products—and sent me $1,100 and I think -that was the amount, to put the money down on the lease—the first and -the last months of a 10-year lease. Mr. Waddlington, who owned the -ground, had built the inside of the building—no; the outside of the -building, and part of the inside to my specifications and the idea was -that Jack—Jack was in the service but he was very unhappy in being in -business with my two brothers, and they sent me some money. I think -they sent me—one brother sent me $1,500 and my older brother—with the -things he bought and paid for ran about $2,500—like dishes and intercom -system and a grand piano—ran to about $2,500—and this is Hyman—— - -Mr. HUBERT. And so—— - -Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute, and I went into business then. - -Mr. HUBERT. That became known as what? - -Mrs. GRANT. That became known as the Singapore Supper Club for a little -over a year, and it was a very sad—it was too nice a club for that part -of town there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did Jack join you in that venture? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he was a partner in it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he actually helped operate it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; listen, I want to tell you, he did all the operating, -and the truth of the matter is, had he not known how bad that -neighborhood was—you see, I didn’t know, because I didn’t mingle -with anybody and I didn’t understand about certain—what they call -the tenderloin district, I never heard the word. He was mad that I -got involved in that with so much money and then all this work—this -struggle for 2 years—It took 2 and 2½ years or 3 years until they built -the building. - -Mr. HUBERT. He came in what year—Jack did? - -Mrs. GRANT. He came right after he got out of service and it seems to -me it was in 1948. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he stayed with you running this club for some time? - -Mrs. GRANT. I left shortly. I went on the road—I went on the west coast -and I was selling fishing tackle for Harvey Phillips, and then I got -another line—of radios. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that when Jack came, you -left—just about? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, shortly after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You sold out to him? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; I just gave him power of attorney. It’s my brother. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he invested $1,100? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he invested a lot more—he got more money out of what he -sold out of his business in Chicago and I don’t know how much his end -of the Earl Products came to. - -Mr. HUBERT. He sold or closed the Singapore Supper Club? - -Mrs. GRANT. He changed the name to the Silver Spur because that name -would fit better in that area. - -Mr. HUBERT. And did you have an interest in the Silver Spur? - -Mrs. GRANT. He sent me some money when I was broke or sick or I didn’t -work or the weather was too hot. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t have any financial interest in the Singapore -Club? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, I put in money because I made money in the brokerage -business. Every time I made money, I would throw it back in—I put it -back in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was the arrangement between you and Jack as to -the ownership of the Silver Spur? - -Mrs. GRANT. We were partners. - -Mr. HUBERT. Half and half? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but there was never any half and half. I can’t explain -it. He was there and things were so bad, we were lucky we were eating. -That’s one of the reasons I left and went out to the west coast on the -road with the fishing tackle. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed away from Dallas as I understand it, until -approximately 1959, wasn’t it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; I was here lots of times. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I understand that, but I mean—you didn’t come back -here to live on a permanent basis? - -Mrs. GRANT. I was here—I was here the next year—the year after that, -and I stayed 2 years and he got involved with another club that a -fellow was wanting to sell it and it was called Hernando’s Hideaway and -I think that was in 1952 or 1953, and by then—Jack always had his hands -in two or three places—whether they are making money or not, and I ran -this other club, if I remember, and then I ran the Vegas Club for a -while. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you came back to Dallas, so that it was on a permanent -basis, in what year? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know how long I was here then. - -Mr. HUBERT. But I think you mentioned a little while ago that you -haven’t been out of town—out of this town for 4 or 5 years? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now, I am here 4 years constantly. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I am talking about. - -Mrs. GRANT. But this time I was gone about a year and a half or 2, but -I have been back here, but I didn’t come to stay. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I understand, so that during the period from -1948 to roughly 1958, a period of 10 years, you were in and out of -Dallas, of course? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you didn’t have any connection with any of Jack’s -operations here? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, in the early fifties when I came, I worked at the -Vegas Club and as I said, I ran this Hernando’s Hideaway. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the circumstances of Jack’s acquisition of the -Vegas Club? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us briefly how that came about? - -Mrs. GRANT. I know this, that he sold the other club—I may be wrong—for -$4,500. I don’t know the exact amount—but I have an idea it was around -$4,500 and he bought this club with a couple other fellows. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know them? - -Mrs. GRANT. I never met them—I know I heard the name Joe Bonds—I never -saw him in my life. Maybe if I saw him I didn’t know it was him. When I -came he was in jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Martin Gimpel or Marty Gimpel? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, Marty, may he rest in peace, is a real nice guy. - -Mr. HUBERT. He’s dead now, isn’t he? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—he worked for the Post Office. - -Mr. HUBERT. He has been dead some time? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not over 2½ years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me he may have been in with Jack and maybe -even—you see, there was a time he may have even taken over—Jack let -him take over the Silver Spur and Jack went into a business called—the -club—does it say Bob Wills’ Ranch House there, something like that, -anything about Bob Wills’ Ranch House? - -Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am. Did he have some interest in that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, and it’s here in town—it’s not that name any more. -Jack, I think, leased or sold the Silver Spur to Marty and it was -Marty that was running the club and Jack was running the Bob Wills’ -Ranch House with somebody else—oh, yes, I know the guy—Hyman Fader, or -something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that for the last 2 or 3 years you have -operated the Vegas Club for Jack? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, three and a half years. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have been I take it, on a salaried basis? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have no ownership in the club, though, I take it? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. But did you have complete management and control? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, let me put it this way—every week I would give -him—like if I would have $800 and he said he needed $600 to pay bills -or $400, he would take it. I make the payroll, I pay the bills and I -didn’t go to the Federal to pay the taxes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me put it this way—you used your gross receipts, -I suppose, to pay the running expenses? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, and when he would take any money, he would -take a lump; you know what I mean, 400 or 500, not if he made 2¼, did -he take 2¼. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep any books on the transactions? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes—what is his name—Abe Kleinman—of course, I -don’t have them—I have some of the things, but Abe Kleinman was the -accountant. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t own the land or the building of the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no—no. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much rent was paid; do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. 500—since I’m there. - -Mr. HUBERT. $500 a month? - -Mrs. GRANT. $500 a month, but I think the first year that I was there, -I think it was only 400 and something. - -Mr. HUBERT. All of the help, I take it, was paid in cash? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, but everyone who signed checks. You know—I would make -out a check—I would take out their withholding and social security and -put it right on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You used a bank then for the operation of the Vegas Club? - -Mrs. GRANT. We had a bank account. - -Mr. HUBERT. But did you pay salaries and other expenses? - -Mrs. GRANT. I paid the band and I paid the bartender and I paid a -floorman. - -Mr. HUBERT. What bank was that with? - -Mrs. GRANT. The Merchants’ State Bank. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had a checking account there? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, I didn’t. He did. But what I mean is, the checks didn’t -go through the bank. We just let them sign a check like a receipt, but -everything was on it—their names, their withholding and their social -security. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I was trying to get at—the Vegas Club or Jack -Ruby or you, yourself, for the operation of the Vegas Club, did not -have an active checking account in which money received was deposited -and expenses paid out? - -Mrs. GRANT. He deposited the money every week, but it was like a round -figure, like 200. I paid for the gas, I paid the telephone and lights -and water bill on checks. I bought all the merchandise on cash and we -have receipts. He paid the rent. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you paid the employees by cash, too? - -Mrs. GRANT. The bartender, and the band and the floorman. The -waitresses worked on tips. - -Mr. HUBERT. All the employees were paid by cash? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, but they signed receipts for it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Who was Pauline Hall in that operation, what -did she have to do? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, sometimes she helped on the floor as a hostess and, -of course, while I was ill, she took over the management for 2 weeks -in 1963 in November. She has been a waitress in our club on and off. -She has known us about 8 years. She has been a bartender when we needed -one—she is a very nice person. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand you had some trouble with your band at the -Vegas in the fall—did they quit or something of that sort? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, we had the same band leader—yes—almost 8 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was he? - -Mrs. GRANT. Joe Johnson. - -Mr HUBERT. And what happened? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was unhappy because someone offered him more -money. We weren’t getting along, he and I, and there was always a -dissension. First of all, he wouldn’t stay on the bandstand—I had to -humor him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he quit or did you fire him? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, we didn’t fire him. He made arrangements with another -night club. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was when? - -Mrs. GRANT. He made arrangements unbeknownst to us, but he gave us -notice and he left, I think, the first week of November, 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Raymond Jones, do you know him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He worked at the Vegas, didn’t he? - -Mrs GRANT. He worked on and off—he was a porter. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was a handyman? - -Mrs. GRANT. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. HUBERT. He was a handyman or a porter? - -Mrs. GRANT. He was a porter. - -Mr. HUBERT. He quit the Vegas, didn’t he? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; he has always had another job and he worked for me and -he came back—he wasn’t a very good porter. Truthfully, where he worked -the last job for 19 years, he didn’t do actually any porter work—he was -like the foreman over porters. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he stop working for the Vegas at any particular -date so that you didn’t see him thereafter? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he came back a couple of times—Jack knew him from the -Dallas Athletic Club. That’s how I got him in the first place. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he quit working for you back last fall sometime? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, call it quits—he quit a few times, I called him and -he came; he is not the most intellectual man; he can’t read or write; -he can’t sign his own name. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, he stopped working for you? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I fired him a couple of times and he came back. I -don’t know how you would—it isn’t any quitting—he never showed up. In -fact, he worked for me right around New Year’s again. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had nothing to do, as I understand, with the operation -of the Sovereign Club or the Carousel, but perhaps you can tell us -something about how those two clubs came into existence and what you -know about them? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, first, I wasn’t in town to begin with, and when I did -arrive here, that club was in existence. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that? - -Mrs. GRANT. That was the Sovereign Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Commerce Street, isn’t it? - -Mrs. GRANT. 1312½ Commerce. - -Mr. HUBERT. It’s an upstairs location? - -Mrs. GRANT. And I understand Jack has taken money from Earl and -probably from my sister Mary and God knows who else in the family—there -was none of his money in there—if he had a thousand dollars of his -money, it was a lot of money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a corporation, to your knowledge? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who are the owners of the stock? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, from what I knew—Ralph Paul put in some money and -that was another thing. He is quite a well-to-do man and I think he -wanted Jack to be a success, whether he loaned or gave him money—I -don’t know, but I know he was connected with the club, and Leo Torti, -I think Jack owed him a little. Jack promised or owed him some money, -made him part of the corporation and the first that started out it was -with Earl being in it, but the State doesn’t allow an outsider to be in -a corporation of that type when you carry a liquor license and I think -they rehashed it later on and it went over a few times—it started out -with the people I didn’t know, but ones I got to know later on was Joe -Slayton and another fellow who I still don’t know who he is. There was -three partners—Jack represented Earl, Earl gave him the money. Jack -encouraged Earl to give him the money to go into this thing and to this -day, and this is truthfully, I think he owes Earl $8,500 on that deal -alone, and I’m making it low. I don’t know all the money Earl had given -him from time to time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the existence of a corporation called -Sovereign, Incorporated? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; it’s called S & R Corp. or R & S. Yes; I know it now -and I knew it when I came to town. He told me about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. But did you ever hear of a corporation called Sovereign -Club, Incorporated, or Inc.? - -Mrs. GRANT. It could be the same club if it is. Now, since then Ralph -was so disgusted when Jack got in all this trouble, he gave me the -stock—his stock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he own that stock that you’ve got—do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. I guess so. - -Mr. HUBERT. He gave you the certificates, you mean? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; there’s no name on them—I have it at home—I think it -says 500 shares. - -Mr. HUBERT. The name was just in blank? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, he didn’t have to endorse it over to you? - -Mrs. GRANT. I told him we were going to sell it and he said, “You -endorse it over to the other person.” - -Mr. HUBERT. But he did not endorse it over, he just gave you the -certificates? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he had a letter with the attorney—they went up to an -attorney called Graham Koch [spelling] K-o-c-h. Anyway, he would know -more about it than I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Ralph Paul was holding that stock as -owner or as security for money owed? - -Mrs. GRANT. Who knows? - -Mr. HUBERT. But do you know that? - -Mrs. GRANT. I know Ralph must have given Jack a lot of money that he -never got back; believe me, let me tell you. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had Jack talked to you at all about any nightclubs that he -proposed to open? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did he first talk to you about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Listen, now, he didn’t say he was going to open it, he -says, “This would be a good private club,” and I think he took me then -on a street here to Maple or Cedar Springs, and I guess he was going to -ask Ralph Paul for money, to be honest, they were very close. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you to be a part of it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he didn’t tell me. - -Mr. HUBERT. How far had those plans gone, do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. I looked at the outside of the building with him late at -night—3 o’clock in the morning. Now, wait a minute, he had seen it—he -had been in it—whatever this building is, and to this day I’d like to -find it because someone else told me that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when that was that he showed that building to -you? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seemed to me that it was in the summer and once early in -the fall, or it could have been in October. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what he was going to do with the Vegas and the -Carousel? - -Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t say anything about the Vegas or the Carousel, but -I’ll tell you, the Carousel in my estimation wasn’t making any money -and it made him sick, and one of the reasons was he said that all the -other clubs that sell liquor over the bar—you see, this State has very -peculiar liquor laws and he said with a downtown club he could get a -lot of members to go into this private club, but he did look at this -building a few times because he talked about it and he is the biggest -planner you’ve ever seen about something that don’t develop in his mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, does the name Gene Schriver [spelling] -S-c-h-r-i-v-e-r, mean anything to you? - -Mrs. GRANT. Is that a girl or a fellow; do you know? - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, we knew a Jean that worked for him as a waitress. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is the last name Schriver? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know of. I knew a lot of girls that worked for -them but I didn’t know their last names. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did she do? - -Mrs. GRANT. She was a waitress up there—a couple of years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, she was there two or three times. She got mad at Jack -and went over and worked for the Colony Club, if it’s the same little -girl. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was she working with Jack at the time of the death of the -President? - -Mrs. GRANT. Gee, I don’t know; I don’t remember who was working there. -I know one cute little girl and I couldn’t think of her name unless it -came up. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Frank Goldstein? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he used to work with him selling subscriptions in San -Francisco and when Jack was having trouble with the union—he hasn’t -spoken to that fellow in 26 years and I believe it, because I’ve -been on the west coast off and on, and Frank often asks, “Why don’t -you write to me or call?” Last fall, in fact, in November—as late as -November, I think Jack made the first call to Frank Goldstein because -things were getting very bad. - -Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, that phone call made to Goldstein was the -first connection between Jack and Goldstein—— - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, let me finish my question—in some -considerable number of years? - -Mrs. GRANT. I know that for a fact because I used to go to the west -coast and see Frank every 5 years—5 or 7 years and we talked about him -and I don’t remember Jack or him ever saying they talked or wrote and -Frank, I don’t think, could write. - -Mr. HUBERT. But as far as you know, he had no connection with him; is -that right? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but I do know he is a gambler and it is very well -emphasized in San Francisco that he is a gambler. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Benny Barrish? - -Mrs. GRANT. Benny—I heard he is a liquor salesman. I knew him when we -were on the west coast. He’s a Chicagoan. He came out there in 1935 and -as far as I know he’s a liquor salesman. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was the last connection you had with him? - -Mrs. GRANT. I saw him about 8 or 9 or 10 years ago when I went to San -Francisco. - -Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him or corresponded with him in any way by -telephone? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack ever knew him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, sure. We knew him from Chicago as kids, but I’m -sure Jack hasn’t—now, I won’t say positive I know Jack hasn’t for -any reason, unless during this month—this particular month where he -was having trouble early in the fall of 1963 with regard to amateur -auditions at his club. He had contacted people all over the country -trying to find out who knew the bigwigs in the union where the AGVA, -you know, the big shots—who they were that run the union. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would Benny Barrish be the sort of person who might know -something or be able to do something about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he gets around—he knew and knows people in the liquor -business that have entertainments in San Francisco—it might be. - -Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, Jack has made no connections out there -in anyway for some time? - -Mrs. GRANT. In over 12 years—I would swear to this that he has had no -connection out there since before the war and he has never been west -of 100 miles of this area in that time. I have many, many times heard -where people said he went to Las Vegas. He hasn’t been there only once -with me and I think that was when we went to—from Los Angeles back and, -of course, that must have been in 1937 or 1938, and he has not been -back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby, your brother, or communicate with -him every day, would you say, for a period of 60 to 90 days prior to -November 24? - -Mrs. GRANT. Every day? I don’t say I saw him every day, but I would say -I heard him on the phone three to five times. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to say then that to the best of your -knowledge he was not out of the city of Dallas during that period, that -is to say—— - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, didn’t he go to New York in August? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was going to except August at that point—that’s why -I put it at 90 days. - -Mrs. GRANT. Didn’t he go to see a fellow, Joe Glazer, who was the head -of a certain union? - -Mr. HUBERT. We have evidence that he did go to New York in August, but -after that trip—let’s put it this way, from September 25 until November -25 just a period of 2 months, can you state to us now that to the best -of your knowledge, Jack was not out of the Dallas area? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember him going out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, do you have any indication whatsoever of any -kind that he might have gone to Las Vegas during this period? - -Mrs. GRANT. That—I swear. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you certainly would have known it if he had been -gone, say 3 or 4 days, wouldn’t you? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, for one more reason, he would advise me to keep it -quiet and to collect the money to see that Andy does this or that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And there is nothing to indicate to you whatsoever that he -was in Las Vegas during September or October or November of 1963? - -Mrs. GRANT. But I know he has made many calls to the same fellow, -McWillie. I would say he made at least 10 calls in those 3 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what would be the reason for those calls? - -Mrs. GRANT. The same thing—Willie might know somebody in Las Vegas, -since there is that type of entertainment, with these amateurs. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you he was calling these various people -because of this trouble with the union? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seemed to me—well, he was so bitter against Barney—I -shouldn’t say this because—it’s just sickening—because they didn’t mean -to hurt him—Barney and Abe Weinstein and he felt—the union sent him a -telegram to quit these amateur auditions and they sent it to Abe and -Barney, but they wouldn’t quit, but Jack figured they had an “in” with -the big guys, you know, and Jack couldn’t get to this fellow, and he -told me that he called McWillie. In fact, he may have called him even 3 -days before that—he was just sick about this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, was McWillie, and I think you mentioned another person -earlier, Lenny Patrick he called? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Lenny Patrick he called in Chicago—one time, and he -was not there, and until he got his number—he called 15 different -people from what I understand. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I was getting at is this—your explanation that if -he called Goldstein and Barrish and McWillie and so forth, your -explanation that those calls were made in connection with this -difficulty about the amateur night thing—was that information obtained -by you from Ruby, or are you just giving us your opinion of what those -calls were about? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he has discussed this with me many times and I -didn’t go to the downtown club too often, but when I did go there, it -so happened either September or October on a particular Sunday night, -whichever Sunday night it was—there are five Sundays and whichever -Sunday it would be, and the Vegas Club would be closed on Sunday, he -told me he had just gotten through talking to somebody and I’ll be -honest about it, it just went in one ear and out the other, because I -figured that—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I am trying to get at and that is -whether or not your statements that those calls were made in connection -with this AGVA business derives from him directly or whether it is -merely your opinion that those calls were about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. It is not only my opinion, we talked about it. We had -discussed it and he had told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that that does come—that information, then does come -directly from Jack? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, and one other thing, when I called home, I spoke to -my older brother and he knows Jack Yanover. My brother Jack did not -know Jack Yanover like my older brother. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s who? - -Mrs. GRANT. Hyman; he’s a friend of his and my older brother in this -conversation said to me, “I told him to call Jack Yanover. Maybe he -knows somebody because Yanover has some kind of saloon in Chicago,” -that’s in my estimation because of the way it looks, and this all went -on and Jack used to rehash it with me until it—well, I know that’s what -that call was for. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was all during the period then of September and -October? - -Mrs. GRANT. In the summer—last summer and he also told me, you know, -he told me during one of those months he said, “I tried to call Lenny -Patrick,” and he said, “I got his number,” he got it from somebody and -I don’t know who, what and I didn’t give a darn. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you all of this prior to November 24? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, sure. To tell you the truth, the way I see Jack through -this little glass, he has very little to say. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Robert McKeown [spelling] -M-c-K-e-o-w-n, or have you ever heard of him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Is it a Dallas man? - -Mr. HUBERT. I believe not. - -Mrs. GRANT. Would it be my friend or Jack’s friend? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would probably be Jack’s friend. Did Jack ever -tell you of contacting him by telephone and going to see him in the -Galveston area concerning the selling of jeeps to Castro? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now, I know Jack was in Cuba 6 or 7 years ago or one of -those years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; you told us about that—that was when he went to -join McWillie for a little while? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and I also know that I did hear the story about jeeps. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, let me say this—I don’t know whether I heard it -last year or the year before, but I do remember something in a -conversation—some guy told him he knew where there were 400 or 800 -jeeps or 80 jeeps and whether Jack went down—Jack went to Houston -first of all—he did go to Houston last year to see a man from a night -club. They were going to exchange acts or work in a deal, but I don’t -remember who the man was, and this all came about, but Jack, I’ll tell -you, he isn’t that kind of a promoter. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack tell you about the jeeps? - -Mrs. GRANT. This was the deal with McWillie at the time and we were on -friendly terms, as much as I remember about it, and I think he shoved -it off. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it the jeep proposition that had something to do with -Jack’s visit to McWillie in Havana in 1959? - -Mrs. GRANT. Jack was very depressed, he was having a lot of trouble, -that McWillie sent him as much as I know, a ticket to come to Havana to -have a week or 10 days vacation. That’s as much as I know of the whole -darn thing and deal outside of the talking about jeeps at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did that visit have anything to do with the jeeps in -addition to the rest and vacation that you know of? Now, don’t guess -about it. - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but I heard “Jeeps” but I didn’t pay too much -attention to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, the real fact is you don’t know much about it? - -Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. You heard something about jeeps about that time, but you -are not in a position really to say that you know yea or nay—yes or -no—whether Jack’s visit to Havana with McWillie had to do with jeeps or -not; isn’t that right? - -Mrs. GRANT. Do you know that I didn’t know at the time he was in -Havana. I knew this a few years later. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is—the real fact is you don’t have any -knowledge of it—of the real facts? - -Mrs. GRANT. I have no specific knowledge of it, but I do know that my -sister told me he was down in Havana. He called Chicago from there and -he said he’s in Havana and I think he spoke to Marion Carroll—that -sister. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Lawrence Meyers? - -Mrs. GRANT. I knew a Meyers but I can’t think of his first name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him or meet him during the first 3 weeks of -November 1963? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know—I can’t think of it—no; this fellow I knew -years ago, but I can’t think of his first name—gee, that isn’t his -first name. He used to live here in town on Lemmon Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Alex Gruber? - -Mrs. GRANT. You mean Al Gruber on the West Coast? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him? - -Mrs. GRANT. I heard his name around the house 30 years—Jack knew him -when they were young. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that Jack had called him on the night of the -President’s death? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how you knew it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Either late that evening or the next day he talked to Al -and there was something in the conversation—Al was here early in the -fall and in fact coming through—I was in the hospital and he promised -Al a dog and it seems to me I called him—I must have called him later -on; anyway, when I did call him a week or so later or whenever I did, -I don’t know, but it was after this incident, Al said, “You know, Jack -was crying when he called me on the day of the assassination?” - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack himself tell you he had called? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; Al told me. I had called Al myself. I had called Al -within 10 days of the President’s assassination, something regarding to -the dog. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am; I understand that—you mean before the -President’s assassination? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. After? - -Mrs. GRANT. But Jack has talked to him before too—some weeks. - -Mr. HUBERT. But did Jack tell you that or did Gruber tell you that? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; Al told me this. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that Jack had called Gruber on the night -of the President’s assassination until Gruber himself told you? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; it seems to me that Jack even may have mentioned it, -but still I made a call myself to Al in regards to the dog. Jack said -he promised him a certain dog. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say Gruber had been through Dallas? - -Mrs. GRANT. While I was in the hospital in November—in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him then? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I did. He visited me at the Gaston Hospital. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were hospitalized for how long? - -Mrs. GRANT. For about a week. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of your illness; do you recall? - -Mrs. GRANT. Tumor and hysterectomy. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were in there about a week? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack from the standpoint -of, say, personal relationship as brother and sister and, of course, as -comanager—were you on a friendly basis? - -Mrs. GRANT. Most of the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any difficulties between you sometimes? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; lots of times. We got along a lot of times like a -disagreeable man and wife. If my band leader complained it was no good. -If I complained it was no good. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack’s attitude generally toward politics; do you -know? - -Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t have any. - -Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge did he belong to any kind of -organizations whatsoever? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not one that I could put my—outside of the YW—YMCA -or something to that effect or the union connected with the -musicians’ union or AGVA, and maybe three or four private clubs -around—entertainment clubs. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sort of attitudes toward conservatism or -liberalism or any kind of “ism”? - -Mrs. GRANT. All I know—he’s a good American and he is far better than a -lot of people are. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, did you ever notice any interest that he had in -pro-Cuban affairs or anti-Cuban affairs or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or -anything of that sort? - -Mrs. GRANT. This is the exact words when they spit on Stevenson last -fall—Jack and I were going to dinner or coming to dinner and someway -or somehow we were sitting in the car—his car—and he looked at me and -he says, “Isn’t that awful?” He says, “They ought to knock their heads -together.” Now, we were told two young fellows out of college or in -college did that and he says, “To think—a man devotes his time” and he -went on for a couple of minutes, and that was it, and I remember the -incident of—I’ll tell you—he respects high people and he admires highly -educated, cultured people—good family men. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well the answer to my question, I gather, from what you -have said, then, is that Jack did not have any ideas that were pro-Cuba -or anti-Cuba or pro-Castro or anti-Castro? - -Mrs. GRANT. He was against communism from the beginning of when it even -entered his mind. I don’t know what year—maybe 35 years ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did he express himself on that? - -Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t have to—from the things he done—was too -American—too much American. - -Mr. HUBERT. But my point is—I gather from that that he never discussed -with you his feelings about communism or anything—it’s just that you -observed that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I’m not an intellectual on those subjects, to be -honest about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he the type of man that would be interested in these -subjects himself? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; not to express it openly or fight with it—in this -manner, if you said anything against anybody or anything big of our -country that is Americanism—you might as well—he would knock the hell -out of you. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying to me is that if he has -any kind of “ism” at all, it would be Americanism? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—he has that—he does have that—that’s his -greatest. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack never married, did he? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; he was engaged to a young lady here. - -Mr. HUBERT. What generally was his attitude toward women; do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, in his late life I think he was sort of a playboy -myself, but in his early life he wanted to get married. There were -several individuals he had a great love for and the trouble is, he -picked on women who were of means and he couldn’t give them what they -wanted. He could tell from the way they were reared or their attitude, -and how they expressed themselves when they get married—what they -wanted, and I think it sort of cooled him toward making it. He liked -women. He was a real man. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understood he took good care of himself physically? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the sense that he took physical exercise regularly? - -Mrs. GRANT. And the truth is, he has a great sympathy for women who are -left with hardships and maybe it started with me or my mother—if they -have to work and do a lot of things—it was in the back of his mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack didn’t drink very much, did he? - -Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t drink a fifth of liquor a year. When we went out, -we ordered two drinks, I would drink mine and have to drink two-thirds -of his. Then, we were ashamed to sit there and he would order it -again—not that I’m such a big drinker, but that’s what he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about smoking—he didn’t smoke either, did he? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember but once he had a cigar in his mouth, -a couple of years ago at a party and maybe he had three or four -cigarettes in his life, that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you and he have any difficulties about the girl that he -was going out with one time and I think Rabbi Silverman had to kind of -intervene? - -Mrs. GRANT. That he was going with? That wasn’t it—it wasn’t about a -girl. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did have a disagreement? - -Mrs. GRANT. A very big disagreement—early this summer of 1963—it was in -the early part of the summer. It was over money. He had $800 or $900 -and he wanted to pay bills and somebody encountered him who needed -their car fixed or something and I think he paid for the car and he -didn’t pay the electric bills, and when he went to jail in November—3 -months of the Carousel’s bill on the electric company wasn’t paid and -it ran almost $800 or $900 for 3 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the particular argument about then—that he had -loaned some money to someone? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; it was not the first occasion only—this one—that’s -the time that I blew my top and I had been sick—I have been in very -bad physical condition and he wanted me to get out of the club, and -Leo Torti who worked for us on weekends told him that I was having a -difficult time and I should be in the hospital and he said, “I gave you -money to go to the hospital,” and he gave me a push and I had just got -some new high heeled shoes and I went back about 8 feet and I hurt my -arm and my shoulder and he wanted me out of the Vegas Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whose car did he have repaired with the money you thought -he should have used for the lights? - -Mrs. GRANT. Some family man—he does that—I haven’t the least idea and I -don’t think he did either. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out it was used to repair someone’s car? - -Mrs. GRANT. Some man come in my club weeks later and says, “Your -brother was in,” and I didn’t even know this man’s business, and he -said he works there as a car mechanic and he says, “He got someone’s -car out of hock,” so I figured maybe it was his car—I didn’t think of -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was that man, do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. Some customer at the Vegas Club—if I saw him, I would know -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but I knew his appearances. He was one like the -regulars who come about every month one time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of car he drove? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; I was in the club—I wouldn’t know what the patrons -were driving, but he did repair someone’s car and it was a family man -that was supposed to go on the road or some darn thing and if I’m not -mistaken, as far as I know, my brother never got the money back. It -wasn’t $800 worth of repairs, but these are the things that he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the twistboard deal, can you tell us about that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he met a man—I think this man lives in Fort Worth and -I think his name is out there somewhere and it says a plastic company -on that thing—I’m almost sure it is the same man, and this man was -manufacturing them and Jack had a deal with him to cover Texas, and if -it went good, Jack would get the whole United States. In fact, I think -somewhere in my apartment there might be a twistboard. I don’t know if -I ever saw the man or not, but I believe he is in either Arlington or -Fort Worth, lived there, and there is a twistboard that Jack—he sold -quite a number—he sent some out to different people. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Earl interested in that? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. Earl’s partner, I think, is a friend that he -knows—we call him George—in a laundry in Detroit. Whether he was or -has been—I don’t think Earl wanted—in Earl’s business with this man, I -think the contract reads he cannot go into another business. I may be -wrong, but I’m almost sure that’s what I remember Earl saying at one -time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Earl had any interest in the twistboard -operations at all? - -Mrs. GRANT. I doubt it, unless he advanced Jack some money, but I don’t -think there was that much money put into it. The man let Jack have, -say, a hundred twistboards and he paid for them and I don’t know too -much about it, but I did have them in the club and we gave them away as -prizes and I know Jack contacted weight salons where women go to reduce -about them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any contact whatsoever with Ralph -Paul? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. During the period from November 22 through November 24, up -until the time Oswald was shot? - -Mrs. GRANT. Me? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think I even talked to him during those days. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean. - -Mrs. GRANT. You know, I assume him and Jack were very good friends. - -Mr. HUBERT. I’m not suggesting to the contrary. - -Mrs. GRANT. He never did call me and I never called him—I don’t -remember calling him. I have called him many times since then. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I know, but I’m talking about during this particular -period of 3 days. - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he has ever called me—I have called him. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean—let’s restrict ourselves for the moment to the -three days of November 22, 23, and 24. - -Mrs. GRANT. He may have called me on the 24th of November. - -Mr. HUBERT. After Oswald was shot? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was at least 20 calls when I did not pick up -the phone—people in my home did. - -Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am; that’s not what I’m talking about but let me get -at it this way—was there any contact between you and Ralph Paul from -the time the President was shot until the time Oswald was shot? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; definitely not. Can I go back with something? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am. - -Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain about this Raymond Jones. He worked for 19 -years at the Dallas Athletic Club and when Jack got in trouble, the -very next week he had made a remark to his boss, whoever he is, “I’m -going to see my friend,” they said, “Where are you going?” And he said, -“I’m going to see my friend,” and they said, “Who is your friend?” And -he said, “Jack Ruby.” They told him that if he went to see Jack that he -didn’t have a job. He says, “Well,”—he came back and he went to see -Jack and he couldn’t get in and he came to see me at the Club and he -says he just quit. I said, “After 19 years?” - -Mr. HUBERT. The Vegas was closed too, was it not? - -Mrs. GRANT. It was closed on and off a few times after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean, the Vegas was closed on November 22, November -23, and November 24? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, 2 days after that—it was closed for 5 days. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then ultimately it was sold? - -Mrs. GRANT. Then, I opened it again and I closed it and I opened it for -New Year’s and I closed it permanently January 4. - -Mr. HUBERT. Until when? - -Mrs. GRANT. Until someone else bought it—it wasn’t in operation until -this woman got her license, which was about the 1st of March. - -Mr. HUBERT. And of course the Carousel closed too because of the -license lapsing—the liquor license? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; they closed February the 12th, from what I understand— -their liquor license was revoked. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s take a break for a few minutes. - -Mrs. GRANT. You mentioned a man’s name McKeown or something like that; -may I ask you what he does? - -Mr. BURLESON. Let’s take a break now, Eva. - -(The deposition proceedings were recessed as heretofore stated and -continued as hereinafter shown.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the deposition is continuing after -the recess at 9:10 p.m. and that Mr. Burleson will ask some questions -with respect to the block of questions and the areas covered by those -questions before I go on. - -Mr. BURLESON. Mrs. Grant, you were saying out at the Vegas Club that -the employees were paid in cash, and you mentioned something about -giving them some type of check with their name on it. Would the -transaction be such that you would give them a check and then cash the -check for them in effect? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s exactly it, but the check never went through the -bank procedure. It was like a voucher that they had received that money -on. - -Mr. BURLESON. Was it on a regular bank draft that it was made out on? - -Mrs. GRANT. Most of the time. - -Mr. BURLESON. And the net effect would be that you would give them a -check and then cash it for them and take the check back and give them -cash? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I put the check in an envelope and I would have—like -your salary is $65, withholding and social security, and write on the -back of the envelope that, and a lot of them kept their envelopes and a -lot of them threw it out and they had signed the check and returned it -and the balance of what money they should receive was in there. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, you were in the hospital the first part of November -1963? - -Mrs. GRANT. I was sick for a solid week. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, you had been having some trouble for quite some time? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. And as a matter of fact, Jack had been trying to get you -to go into the hospital because the doctors had advised him and you -that you needed this operation immediately? And you had been prepared -on at least one, or maybe more than one occasion, to go to the hospital -and everything had been arranged for the operation and you backed out -at the last moment? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. And Jack knew that you were having this trouble and knew -that the doctors recommended that, and you talked with your doctors -about this? - -Mrs. GRANT. All through the whole week. - -Mr. BURLESON. And finally he was able to get you in the hospital there -the first part of November 1963; is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And you then had what—a partial or complete hysterectomy, -or do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. I know they took out a tremendous tumor and a lot of -things—I didn’t ask because I don’t know what parts it was. - -Mr. BURLESON. Who was the doctor? - -Mrs. GRANT. Bill Aranov. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then you got out of the hospital 7 days after the 6th, -which would have been about the 13th? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. And that was in the middle of a week—about a Wednesday, -wasn’t it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; Wednesday—that’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you given some medication after you left the -hospital? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, not for a few days, I would say, but about the third -or fourth day I got pretty bad. - -Mr. BURLESON. You started what—hurting and being in pain? - -Mrs. GRANT. Tremendous pain. - -Mr. BURLESON. And did this doctor that had operated on you prescribe -some pills? - -Mrs. GRANT. His coworker or assistant—I think his name is Dr. Bookatz. - -Mr. BURLESON. But, at any rate, a doctor did prescribe some pills. What -type of pills were they, do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. I believe that they have codeine in it. - -Mr. BURLESON. What would be the effect on you that these pills would -have? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, they put me into a trance and made my body stiff and -I didn’t have any more pain but I wasn’t as alert as I usually was. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did it affect your thinking? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack visit you in the hospital? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; two or three times a day—mostly two times anyway. - -Mr. BURLESON. And called on the phone sometimes? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; and sent me three bouquets of flowers and -everything. - -Mr. BURLESON. And how long did you take this medicine after you started -taking it—2 or 3 days after you got out of the hospital? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I really didn’t start to take it until the weekend -after I was home. - -Mr. BURLESON. That would have been the weekend about the 16th? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. And how long did you take it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was 1 or 2 days I cut down and then I—about the -21st, which was a Thursday, I had an unusual severe pain and I started -all over again. - -Mr. BURLESON. Taking heavy doses of it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, they are tablets and I called his nurse and she -suggested to take them but not as often as I did when I complained it -threw me into a trance but it still did, because I am not a pill taker -and I guess pills work a little better on me. - -Mr. BURLESON. Were you taking pills on the day of the 22d of November? - -Mrs. GRANT. I already had two pills by the time the President was -assassinated—these pills are prescribed one every 4 hours. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you subscribe to the Dallas Morning News or did you -back on November 22? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, no; but my manager was very sympathetic. - -Mr. BURLESON. Your manager? - -Mrs. GRANT. My manager brought it up every day she came to the -apartment. - -Mr. BURLESON. That’s your manager at the apartment house? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And she brought it up—the paper? - -Mrs. GRANT. Every day. - -Mr. BURLESON. About what time of the morning on November 22 did she -bring it up? - -Mrs. GRANT. It may have been around 11 o’clock. - -Mr. BURLESON. Had you heard from Jack before that concerning the ad? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; shortly—it seemed within the next 20 minutes I would -think that he may have called. - -Mr. BURLESON. Had you seen the ads by Bernard Weissman by the time Jack -called? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I had seen it, but I’ll be honest—I didn’t—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Did you see it after you got the paper on the morning of -the 22d before Jack called on the 22d? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BURLESON. And Jack was talking about it at that time? - -Mrs. GRANT. He was. - -Mr. BURLESON. And would you relate at this time some of the things you -recall he said at that time about the Bernard Weissman ad. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, the first thing he asked was if Pauline is going to -take over—she was the manager, and do this and do that and get the -napkins and all of this stuff connected with the club and then he said, -“Did you see the ad?” - -Mr. BURLESON. This was before the President was shot? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. It so happened that that whole page was like on the -back of a section—it seemed to me anyway that it was that way and it -was open right on my bed—that section, anyway, was opened at that time -for some reason or other. - -Mr. BURLESON. What did Jack say when he called you about the ad? - -Mrs. GRANT. At that time he said, “Did you see the ad?” And I said, -“What ad?” He said, “About the President?” And I said, “Yes.” It said, -“Welcome, Mr. Kennedy,” and he didn’t say too much then. He said some -words in regard—like what do you think of it, so I said, “Oh”——He said, -“Did you read it?” And I says, “Yes, yes.” You know, I wanted to get -away. - -Mr. BURLESON. Had you really read it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Even if I did, I’ll be honest about it, it didn’t appear to -me to be bad or good because I didn’t read all the way down and think -about it and I didn’t study it like maybe I did later. - -Mr. BURLESON. Anyway, go back to what he said then. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he said, “Read it.” He says, “I’ll call you later.” -And he was in the Dallas Morning News, I think, at that time. - -Mr. BURLESON. He said something to lead you to believe that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; well, he said—it seems to me, “I’m in the News, and -I’m going to Toni Zoppi’s office,” which was somewhere in the building, -and “I’ve got to pick up a pamphlet.” - -Mr. BURLESON. Toni Zoppi being the entertainment editor or amusement -editor of the Dallas Morning News? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; and Jack had given him an ad a week before -on a certain entertainer and that’s the fellow that made the remark, -but that was Del Mar—Bill DelMar or DeMar or something like that, and -Jack wanted it because, I guess, the entertainer wanted all this stuff -back—that’s what we call writeups. - -Mr. BURLESON. When was the next time, then, that you heard from Jack; -was that after the assassination? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And at that time what was Jack’s state as you recall it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I was hysterical myself. He must have been crying, -from his voice. - -Mr. BURLESON. At the time that he called, did you know that President -Kennedy had been assassinated? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; because Pauline had called me and on my clock it -was about 25 to 1. - -Mr. BURLESON. What was Jack doing—saying—or was he crying? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, when Jack called it was after 1 again. - -Mr. BURLESON. How was he—was he upset or normal? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he was upset. - -Mr. BURLESON. What did he say? - -Mrs. GRANT. He says, “I’m in the Dallas Morning News,” and I could -hear—it wasn’t distinct, but he says, “The people are all around here, -the phones are ringing like hell and everyone is canceling their -subscriptions and their ads—big ads from all over the State,” and he -said, “Did you read it?” And so I read it again. - -Mr. BURLESON. While he was waiting? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but I mean since then—I looked at it—I’ll be honest -about it, I didn’t comprehend it. - -Mr. BURLESON. Okay. - -Mrs. GRANT. You see, I didn’t comprehend it. - -Mr. BURLESON. Tell us what else he said. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jack said something about John Newman, the fellow -that takes the ads there and he says, “You know, Jack, I have to take -orders from my superiors,” and Jack, whether he told me that night or -later on in the afternoon— he said, “What are you—so money hungry? -That you have to take $1,500 for an ad?” Jack knew a full page cost -approximately that—I mean, he is well aware of that. - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me bring you forward a little bit on these occasions -that you told the FBI about in these statements where Jack spent this -time with you at your house—would you watch television during this -period of time or some of the time? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he didn’t. I had watched it a great deal that -afternoon on a Friday, and he came over—it seems to me when he left the -News he came over and came back later on with a lot of groceries and by -that time either I saw Curry or somebody else on the television and he -was saying, “We got the right man.” - -Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack see that? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—I really don’t know. I tell you—usually under -those pills, I thought I heard it plenty that day, and we got sick when -we were talking about that. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did you and Jack talk about Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. GRANT. He had made very few remarks— he says, “He’s a creep.” You -see, “a creep” is a real low life to Jack and “what a creep he is,” he -says, and he was sick—he went in the bathroom. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he actually vomit? - -Mrs. GRANT. He did not—he was sick to his stomach and he cried, he -looked terrible—he just wasn’t himself, and truthfully, so help me, I -remember even my mother’s funeral—it just killed him. He said this, -“Someone tore my heart out,” and he says, “I didn’t even feel so bad -when pops died because pappa was an old man. He was close to 90.” - -Mr. BURLESON. What did Jack have to say about President Kennedy? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, all I know is that it just killed him. I’ll tell you -the truth—he sat there like it wasn’t worth life—like he thought they -were out to get the world, the whole world, and this was part of it. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. He was very respectful of President Kennedy as -a man and as a President? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he admired him—he thought this man was a great man -of courage. If I said anything like I said there—something about -his brother and integration, he said, “This man is greater, than -Lincoln”—the same night. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack ever have an occasion to say anything to you -about a letter that was in the newspaper that was written by some man, -purportedly to President Kennedy’s daughter, Caroline? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know about that, but the week—the same week of -the assassination—I think it was Monday or Tuesday—it was that week, -there was a picture of the President sitting behind the desk just like -you are and John-John was sitting at the front and you could see him -playing around, I think it was his father’s feet, and he called it -his house—I think, let me put it this way: My brother says, “This kid -don’t know his father is the President and the father don’t act like -a President.” He meant that he was just like a good guy—like acting -ordinarily, like he wasn’t of wealth or power—he was just like the -average young man and Jack looked at him as even being much younger -than he was. - -Mr. BURLESON. But you don’t know anything about such a letter being in -the paper that Jack saw? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—if he did, I don’t know it. I’ll tell you, I -don’t know about that picture—it was the first week that I was home. - -Mr. BURLESON. On Saturday, the times that Jack was in your house, do -you recall if he watched any television? - -Mrs. GRANT. No—very little. Saturday he came in with three pictures, -and at the left hand corner, they were postal card pictures and he told -me what he did. He went home and he couldn’t sleep—he got Larry out of -bed and George Senator, and I thought he was nuts, I’ll be honest with -you about it, so help me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who? - -Mrs. GRANT. I thought my brother Jack was plain nuts. - -Mr. BURLESON. Is that when he went out in the middle of the morning and -took the pictures? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; and he didn’t know exactly where he saw -it—that was the worst part of it and Larry told me that later on when -they found him, he came back to it and they drove around and waited for -daylight and he showed Larry how to take the pictures. - -Mr. BURLESON. You are talking about the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—all of this got in Jack’s mind that some -Communist—no, no—he didn’t use the word “Communist”. I think he said -“Some outfit or some lousy guy,” or something was putting up signs like -that. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack tell you what he was going to do with this -picture? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. What? - -Mrs. GRANT. First, he showed it to me—three little pictures. - -Mr. BURLESON. You actually saw the pictures? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—I saw them—they are postal cards—laying out on my white -table. They were this big (indicating). - -Mr. BURLESON. These are pictures of “Impeach Earl Warren” signs? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and they looked like the American flag. - -Mr. BURLESON. And it was on this Polaroid film? - -Mrs. GRANT. The camera is still at my house, so that’s the same camera, -I’m sure. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. - -Mrs. GRANT. It was like a postal card picture. It seems to me in the -left hand corner was that, and at the bottom it said, “Belmont—Impeach -Earl Warren,” and a box number and it said, “Belmont, Massachusetts.” - -Mr. BURLESON. What did Jack tell you as he showed you those pictures? - -Mrs. GRANT. He called Stanley because he had a lot of faith in him. - -Mr. BURLESON. Stanley who? - -Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman; an attorney. This is another wonderful -American, and he said, “Stanley,” and he told him about the pictures -and then he talked to me, he says, “You know what, I went down to the -post office and the newspaper box—the post office box——” - -Mr. BURLESON. The newspaper box of Bernard Weissman’s ad? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—“It’s so stuffed with mail,” he said to the clerk, and -you can find out now which clerk this is, and on the 23d he was there -at 6 or 7 o’clock in the morning and Larry and Senator should know the -time—I really don’t know that—but it seems to me that’s what he said. - -First of all, he figured that a gentile is using that name to blame all -this on a Jew—about that ad, and then he analyzed the ad on Saturday -and he saw the black border. - -Mr. BURLESON. Will you tell me what Jack said he was going to do with -these pictures? - -Mrs. GRANT. He talked to Stanley and he was going to take them to the -FBI—Monday, the first thing. - -Mr. BURLESON. Was he also going to take them to Mr. Gordon McLendon who -was the operator of KLIF? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he said he was going up there that night. Whether he -did or was there or not, I don’t know. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he mention at that time—did he mention Mr. McLendon’s -name, that Mr. McLendon does these editorials on radio station KLIF? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—he was very close to Gordon. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. - -Mrs. GRANT. In fact, I think he called Gordon from my house. He was -there—and on Saturday he spent a long time with me and he called many -people. - -Mr. BURLESON. And he was quite upset over these pictures and signs? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, let’s come forward to where we were talking about -this Al Gruber. - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—Al. - -Mr. BURLESON. Or it’s possibly Alex Gruber. - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; it’s Al Gruber—his nickname is Musty. - -Mr. BURLESON. And there was something about a dog? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, is this the dog that Jack was having someone build a -crate for? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; or buy a crate or something. - -Mr. BURLESON. And that he could ship this dog to Al Gruber in a crate? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me when Al was here when I was in the hospital, -Jack had promised him a certain dog, I don’t know which one it is, and -not a dog, but a certain dog, because Jack had a lot of dogs. His dogs -just had puppies, I think, in the last month and Al had talked to—Jack -had talked to Andy Armstrong—Andrew—and said something about getting a -crate and Al wanted this dog. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now bringing you forward a little bit to this episode -that you and Jack had the trouble over that ended up in going to Rabbi -Silverman and that you touched upon? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he went to Rabbi Silverman because we weren’t talking -for about 2 weeks. This was previous to the operation. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right; and did Rabbi Silverman talk to you? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Had Jack complained to him that he couldn’t get along -with you or something? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well. I don’t know exactly what Jack said—the rabbi, you -see, didn’t tell me, but I told the rabbi about this money deal. Of -course, I didn’t tell him that I didn’t go to the hospital on all these -times that I had made arrangements with the doctors and backed out. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, you were asked some questions concerning Jack’s -political beliefs or political leanings or political philosophies or -political—anything that had to do with politics, did you ever hear Jack -saying anything about being a Democrat or a Republican or being a right -wing or left wing—he didn’t get involved in politics? - -Mrs. GRANT. Now, this is it—my older brother knew a lot of Democrats -and it seemed that we followed in their footsteps, because this is what -I heard as a child—that the Democrats are for the poor people, so we as -poor people went along with them, but we were never the kind that I was -to go out and get votes or boast about a fellow—me and Jack—never. - -Mr. BURLESON. You don’t know if Jack worked in any type of political -movement? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not to my knowledge. My older brother did—he was a Democrat -and he worked for Governor Horner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is the older brother? - -Mrs. GRANT. Hyman. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, I think you also told me that Earl Ruby’s wife had a -great admiration for President Kennedy also? - -Mrs. GRANT. Truthfully, Earl couldn’t get out of her sight unless she -OK’d it, but she was such a great admirer, and you know how much time -he spent down here and money and Earl said she never said a word—she -just loved him. - -Mr. BURLESON. You mean loved the President? - -Mrs. GRANT. The President—the late President. They’ve got -pictures—little pictures before the assassination—they had all of those. - -Mr. BURLESON. That’s enough on that. Now, one last area— - -Since, and limit this to strictly since the conviction, you have -visited Jack nearly daily in the jail? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I would say at least six times out of the week. - -Mr. BURLESON. What is, in your opinion, Jack’s present condition? - -Mrs. GRANT. I believe he is mentally deranged, inasmuch as I’m not a -doctor, but from what he says to me. - -Mr. BURLESON. You have now, as of this moment, been informed by a -newspaper and also by me about what Jack attempted to do today? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I have. - -Mr. BURLESON. And you were informed and knew of what Jack had attempted -to do about a month ago when he rammed his head up against the wall, -were you not? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. What has Jack told you as to what you should do with and -to yourself? - -Mrs. GRANT. He wants me to do away with myself. - -Mr. BURLESON. Does he give you a reason why? - -Mrs. GRANT. He thinks they are going to kill out all the Jews and he -has made remarks that 25 million Jews have been slaughtered. - -Mr. BURLESON. Already? - -Mrs. GRANT. On the floor below. - -Mr. BURLESON. And they are being slaughtered where? - -Mrs. GRANT. In the jail and sometimes it’s planes going over and they -are dropping bombs on the Jews. - -Mr. BURLESON. Has he told you about hearing or seeing Jews boiled in -oil? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And has he told you about seeing or hearing his brother, -Earl, being dismembered? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and his children. - -Mr. BURLESON. And Earl’s children, and by dismembered, he has seen them -cut off? - -Mrs. GRANT. Arms and legs—they are cut off. - -Mr. BURLESON. Does he, nearly every time you talk to him, ask you to -check on them, when is the last time? - -Mrs. GRANT. I have to sort of tell real lies, that I just got through -talking with Sam and Earl and with Eileen and with Sam and everything -is OK. - -Mr. BURLESON. Because he says that they have been doing this to them? - -Mrs. GRANT. He says many times he has seen Sam on the second floor and -the rabbi was going—yesterday, they took the rabbi, sometimes they take -Stanley. - -Mr. BURLESON. That’s Stanley Kaufman you are talking about? - -Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman. - -Mr. BURLESON. In other words. Jack just doesn’t make sense when you -talk to him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; then sometimes he will say one thing that will be -all right and then he goes off into this stuff. - -Mr. BURLESON. Has Jack told you that he was actually tried for the -killing of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but he thinks that they think that he killed the -President. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you that what he went through with was not -really a trial, but a farce? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And part of a play? - -Mrs. GRANT. In fact; his verdict is on the 14th and the next day he -says to me in front of Eileen, “When will the trial be?” - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he say it wasn’t really Judge Brown that was up there -but somebody else? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s exactly what he said. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you anything about their introducing evidence -in his absence? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And that evidence that they were supposed to have -introduced is the fact that he killed President Kennedy? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he just thinks they are blaming him for it and they -think he did it and they are going to take it out on all the Jews. - -Mr. BURLESON. Does he tell you many times that you will never see him -again because he will be killed? - -Mrs. GRANT. Every time he kisses me goodby that day, he says, “You will -never see me again. Do away with yourself.” - -Mr. BURLESON. To save yourself this punishment? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. What is your opinion as to his present condition mentally? - -Mrs. GRANT. I have seen him just 24 hours ago and he was in a very bad -state of mind. - -Mr. BURLESON. He was in a very bad state of mind? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. How about physically? - -Mrs. GRANT. He has lost between 35 and 40 pounds to my knowledge. He -looks like he has been in a concentration camp. - -Mr. BURLESON. What is his greatest desire as you know it right now? - -Mrs. GRANT. He wants to tell the Warren Commission the truth—he wants -truth serum and a lie detector test. - -Mr. BURLESON. The truth being not going into the psychomotor variant -epilepsy. - -Mrs. GRANT. He don’t know much about that—he doesn’t even know what -they are talking about. - -Mr. BURLESON. He just wants to tell how he felt and how these things -affected him? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. I believe that’s all on those. - -Mrs. GRANT. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. When he tells you these various things, do you try to -straighten him out and say to him that it is not so? - -Mrs. GRANT. When it first started—I didn’t realize this—I hadn’t said -things—I said, “Don’t be crazy,” just words like that—“what are you -talking crazy,” and then when we got to—this Dr. Beavers into the case -and I talked to him and he read something of his report and, of course, -my sister was here at that time. Every day he would say to her, “You’ll -never see me again. Kiss me goodby through the glass.” You know, if it -wasn’t so serious it would be funny in a way, because it don’t seem -like him. It seems that if I agree with him it’s no good and I have -tried—I realize Dr. Beavers said if you’d try agreeing with him then he -says, “You don’t believe me, do you?” He says, “They are playing a game -with you, don’t believe Phil, don’t believe him.” And I said, “What -about the rabbi?” And he says, “The rabbi don’t listen to me.” And -truthfully, every time the rabbi went up there he came down sick and -disgusted with himself—he’s trying to knock some sense into Jack and it -don’t work—it doesn’t register with the rabbi, you see. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at—you all are trying to discourage -him from having these views? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, after talking to the psychiatrist, I said I don’t -know what to do. If I tell you, you will agree with him it is no good, -and if I don’t—I stay there and listen through this glass. - -Mr. BURLESON. I might be able to help with that—help clarify that—when -he says that they have just killed Earl or Sam or their children, you -say, “No, that’s not true because I just talked to them?” - -Mrs. GRANT. I say, “I just talked to them,” and then we’ll get onto -something and I will try to talk about a friend who wrote a letter or -someone came to see him and he goes right back, he says, “There’s no -more Earl. They have dismantled him.” That’s the words he uses. - -Mr. BURLESON. And do you come back and say, “Well, it’s not true -because I just talked to him 30 minutes ago or 2 hours ago?” - -Mrs. GRANT. Or, he makes me promise, “Will you call them tonight to -be sure it’s not so—to be sure it wasn’t him,” and I’ll be sure that -it is somebody else on the phone. They can check with the calls last -Saturday—he made seven calls to Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did? - -Mrs. GRANT. Jack; he don’t know that he made them, he don’t know that -he made that many. I got the letter that he made them from Eileen at -home. - -Mr. HUBERT. He is allowed to make phone calls though? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, sometimes—I think he annoys them a little bit—those -who sympathize with him and they figure he’s pretty screwy, you know he -is really gone—he makes these collect calls to Chicago and they let him -and there are one or two guards that aren’t as nice—I think they are -not as tolerant. - -Mr. BURLESON. Let’s go off the record just a second, so that I can give -Mr. Hubert some information. - -(Discussion between counsel and the witness off the record.) - -Mr. BURLESON. They have a pay phone out there in the jail, do they not? - -Let’s go off the record just a second to give Mr. Hubert some -information. - -(Discussion between counsel off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. I have to explain what went on while we were off the record. - -Let the record show that while we were off the record Mr. Burleson -was explaining to me the circumstances used in the jail for allowing -prisoners, especially those who are under a death sentence to use the -pay phone in the jail, and that was the substance of the conversation -off the record. - -Now, do you have any more questions, Mr. Burleson? Are you through? - -Mr. BURLESON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to get into the matter of the financing of the -defense of your brother, Jack—I suppose we should start with the -selection of the attorneys originally in this case. Now, we know that -Mr. Tom Howard apparently took the first affirmative action on behalf -of Jack Ruby in the afternoon of November 24. - -Mrs. GRANT. On the 24th. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I want to ask you if you know by whose authority he -took this action? - -Mrs. GRANT. Ralph Paul, who knows nothing about lawyers—only knew -Howard and they called them thinking they could get back on bond. -Now, I didn’t know Oswald died until later in the afternoon. I was -hysterical over this shooting and being sick and the President’s -assassination—in fact, my television was on but it was turned down. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was Ralph Paul that called Mr. Howard -for the initial step? - -When it came to the charge of the matter which ultimately followed, did -you have anything to do with the selection of the attorneys who would -defend your brother Jack? - -Mrs. GRANT. Let me put it this way—there was Daugherty and Sullivan -and Jim Martin, and one guy was threatened and one fellow’s wife -didn’t want him in. Tom Howard pushed Jim Martin out of the case. -I was panicky here. I had asked Tom to call Fred Brunner, Charles -Tessmer—what is the name of this Erisman? - -Mr. BURLESON. Fred Erisman. - -Mrs. GRANT. Erisman or something like that and also Percy Foreman to -get another lawyer—you know, a super lawyer that I felt—I didn’t know -too much about Tom, but talking to Chicago and people telling me here -and everything, anyway, Tom remained in the case and I understand -he didn’t contact these people as quickly as he should and Earl was -panicky up in Detroit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t Earl come down here as a result of that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Not that day? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know how many days later he did come, but we were -on the phone constantly. He went to the west coast and he went to see -one of the names there, Mike Shore who knows Frank Sinatra there and we -figured that they would know somebody and that’s how Belli came into -the picture. Now, that is that part of the picture. Now, we didn’t have -any money. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about Tonahill, how did he get in? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh: he was a friend of Belli’s—Belli invited him in—as much -as I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Tonahill came in after Belli did; is that -correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Or maybe together—they were together I think on insurance -cases previously—I assume this. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, Belli chose a local lawyer, as it were, to go along -with him; is that the idea? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Tom was still in the case. Tom called him right away. - -Mr. HUBERT. Called who? - -Mrs. GRANT. You know more about that—Tom got us an investigator, Bob -Dennison. - -Mr. BURLESON. You made the statement that Tom called you? - -Mrs. GRANT. Tom called you. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean Phil Burleson? - -Mrs. GRANT. Phil Burleson. - -Mr. HUBERT. And ultimately, in any case, Mr. Belli was retained to -handle the defense? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was a fee arrangement made with him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain that part—this is what I know. I was not -in San Francisco or Los Angeles. Earl told me this—he says, “You’re -looking at Belli—$75,000,” and Earl thought you might as well have said -$75 million, but he says, “I will want about $25,000 to pay my expenses -and I think I could write a book and make $50,000.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Earl was telling you that? - -Mrs. GRANT. Earl told me words that—— - -Mr. HUBERT. That Belli had told him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and this is what took place in their conversation. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you were quoting some sentences there a moment ago, I -understood you to mean, and see if I am correct, that Earl was telling -you what Belli had told him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes, and I don’t know if there was a contract—I assumed it -was agreeable with Earl. Earl already had talked to a fellow by the -name of Billy Woodfield, the writer. Billy Woodfield, and don’t ask me -how they got connected—I know little about these things—he’s going to -write a short story for Europe, and he probably could help us raise -this initial $25,000 cash. Well, no; he didn’t say that—that was for -his expenses—he didn’t get any money down that day as far as I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, the fee was $75,000, of which he thought—— - -Mrs. GRANT. He could write a book and retain $50,000 out of the book, -but he would like $25,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. As soon as possible? - -Mrs. GRANT. That I don’t know—he says for expenses on the case. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much was actually paid to him; do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. Let me tell you this—the short stories were sold in -Europe and some in America through newspapers. Each paper paid -separately—$400, $300, $600, and the story said, “My story—Jack Ruby.” -I gave most of the story, Jack gave some of it, but I knew this -story—what would you call it—little incidents that happened in his -life, some of it, and some part of the story was right on Friday and -Saturday the 22d. I gave the whole story, you know, I have newspaper -stories of it, and I gave it to Belli, and all these little stories, -we were supposed to get $50,000 from all the different agencies that -bought this to put it in their papers—that’s how it’s done, but we -received, I would say to my knowledge, $23,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was it handled? - -Mrs. GRANT. Earl. - -Mr. HUBERT. Earl controlled the funds at that time? - -Mrs. GRANT. At that time, yes. It came to the writer and the agent, -Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield. Larry sells the story, Billy wrote -the story. You know, you need a writer even though you write. - -Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the money that came to you? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, they received some money on the west coast but they -deposited it in a bank with an escrow deal. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what bank and under what name was it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Earl will tell you—Earl has papers from the bank. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know that? - -Mrs. GRANT. I know it’s in Hollywood and I know Earl says he received -about $23,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was not handled in Dallas. - -Mrs. GRANT. Not to my knowledge—1 cent of that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you say that Earl is the one who is handling the money? - -Mrs. GRANT. At that time, Earl had power of attorney. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had a power of attorney from Jack? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this contract was made for the benefit of -Jack, as it were, and the money that came in was put into some escrow -agreement and then Earl was able to withdraw from that and sign checks -against it by virtue of the power of attorney; is that right? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, that’s right; these people received, I would -say, 35 percent. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct—the way I put it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but we received ourselves, I think, $23,000—there may -have been $30,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the money you did receive? - -Mrs. GRANT. Earl has checks that were made out directly to Belli, which -I think he himself cashed about $13,200. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is “he”? - -Mrs. GRANT. Mr. Melvin Belli. I do know that the doctors were paid and -that may have run to $3,500, and we do know that Bob Dennison received -$4,000. I cannot give you step by step because I do not have it, but -Earl has an accounting of all the money received through the efforts of -that story; however, Earl has spent—I don’t know how many thousands. In -the first place, I think Earl put in $7,000 right away for things, but -he took it out later. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how much has been received all told—you say -about $23,000 as a result of the story? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s as much as I know. This is what I know. There may -have been some money—we were supposed to get money in later, but I -don’t know if we got it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other people or organizations that -contributed any money? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; well—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Or, do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I know. But I’m trying to think how to tell it to you. -Recently we received $100 from Walter Winchell in the last 10 days. We -received $250 a month ago from friends back in Chicago. Then there is a -lot of 5’s and 10’s—I guess I, myself, could not go into that account, -by the way. In the city of Dallas, I received $245 that I had given -to Eileen to reimburse Earl. We put that in a Jack’s defense fund. I -received that amount, then that was December and January—those months, -and then in March or April, I think I also took $110—let me tell you, -the money comes into the county building, you know, the checks, and -when I say I received it, it doesn’t come directly to me. - -I typed up all the money on a list and I sent it on to Eileen with -a check for deposit of $110. That’s the money that I know, but if -we will stop for a minute, I know the hundred, the 250, the 245 and -the hundred—those were plus that $23,000. Now, if there is any other -money—did I tell you any other money? I told you everything there was. - -Mr. HUBERT. There are no substantial amounts? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; listen, don’t listen to those reports. - -Mr. HUBERT. Except from the result of the selling? - -Mrs. GRANT. The big fee was $250 and the story was sold, and we -received—I would say Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield took 35 percent -of the money—the writer and the agent that sells it of the story. I -know there was $23,000 came in and there may have been more since then. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, Earl would have more accurate figures? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, in the handling of the money, it is -less than a thousand dollars that came through you? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think there is a thousand in all of this money and a few -hopes. The New York Times was very sympathetic and they put an ad in -their paper. Most papers will not take an ad for what you call “Jack -Ruby’s Defense Fund.” The ad cost $150—I think they took it less than -the ad. - -Mr. HUBERT. You paid $150? - -Mrs. GRANT. I didn’t—someone in Chicago or Earl must have paid it, but -I do know that, that ad went in. Now, if any other little moneys come -in, I don’t have any accounting of it. I know it came in here—this is -the money that I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. And to your knowledge, then, what has come through your -hands is less than a thousand dollars? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, let’s see—$245, $110, $250, and $100—I think that’s -about it, unless I have forgotten some, but that’s all I know myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. All the rest has been handled by Earl? - -Mrs. GRANT. That was for the sale of the short story. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the present time who are the attorneys for Jack -Ruby? That he still has? Mr. Tonahill is apparently still in the case? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, we retained Mr. Tonahill and Burleson from the very -first minute and they are still in. Shall I tell him about Belli? - -Mr. BURLESON. Go ahead. - -Mrs. GRANT. The day of the verdict I got a telephone call that if Belli -don’t get out of town they are going to kill him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the phone call was from? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but on the other hand, I think—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey that information to Mr. Belli? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; but unfortunately, I didn’t hear from him Saturday. He -had a heart attack while he was here, I think, during the trial—he was -deathly sick. - -Mr. HUBERT. Belli was? - -Mrs. GRANT. There were a few days he went to get a cardiograph and all -that. One of the days, 1 of the 2 days—well, it wasn’t 1 day, it was -3 days, really, but he went to court anyway, and I remember on the -Saturday he went to some clinic here and got all kinds of tests, but -the day before he was almost a goner. - -After I heard the news of the verdict and what came over radio or -television, I thought he would die. He couldn’t talk on the phone—he -mumbled Saturday to some member of my family who called him. I didn’t -hear anything until later on—late Sunday afternoon, and Monday I went -to visit him at his suite. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was here in Dallas? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; at the Statler-Hilton. He answered the phone -and, of course, I heard mumbling and there were newspapermen and Life -magazine men—I don’t remember everyone that was there, but there were -10 or 12, maybe about 10 people, my sister and myself. His wife was -leaving one direction and he was leaving the other. She was white as -a ghost and he was white as a ghost and I just didn’t say anything -because they were packed up to leave and I didn’t want it to get out -because he said he was going to San Antonio, but I don’t think he went -there at all. I think he went another direction because he just wanted -to sort of fool who was after him, but it was a very bad day for him -and myself and my sister. I didn’t even tell her that. You see, they -were downtown and I was home in my apartment the day of the verdict. I -was glad when he left. That, and adding up a few other things—people -said, “You are lucky to get him out because you didn’t know the -things.” They said, “They were trying Melvin Belli and they weren’t -trying Jack Ruby.” - -Of course, between that telephone call and everything—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a local call? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or, was it a long distance call? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; it was a local call. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a man or a woman? - -Mrs. GRANT. A man, and another thing, I know my phone was tapped and I -know—it’s a terrible thing to say, but I have all reasons to believe -that the district attorney has been on it and is still on it. The -only time they got off is when I went to the FBI and complained about -it; that I thought my brother wasn’t protected in the city jail, and -somebody knows every move I was making. It seems my phone was clearer -after that, and truthfully, if the district attorney has any tapes on -me, it should be in on the tape of the day of the verdict, and I was so -sick over the verdict and having this. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not recognize the voice that made the threat -against Belli? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you asked to convey that information to Belli? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last; do you know? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not over 3 or 4 minutes. It was the other party speaking. -This happened the afternoon—the day my brother got his horrible verdict. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was Saturday afternoon, March 14? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; March 14. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the afternoon was it? - -Mrs. GRANT. I would say after 2:30—sometime between 2:30 and 4, it -seems. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was a one-sided conversation, I take it? - -Mrs. GRANT. Practically. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the essence and the gist of the conversation was that -if Mr. Belli did not leave town he would be injured? - -Mrs. GRANT. The voice said something like this, “Mrs. Grant?” I says, -“Yes.” He said, “If Melvin Belli knows what’s good for him, he had -better leave town. They are going to kill him.” Now, I don’t know—this -man didn’t sound like a child and he didn’t sound like an imbecile. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who he meant by “they”? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’ll tell you the truth, I was so shocked at the verdict, -and before I knew it he was off—I was hanging on the phone there by -myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you in any way who “they” were? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or who was going to kill him? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. Oh, now I want to tell you about—going back to Monday, -which would be the 16th, there was conversation and, of course, I think -I heard this Sunday too. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s March 16? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think March 16 was on a Monday. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s correct. - -Mrs. GRANT. But I may have heard this Sunday, that the sheriff—and -there has been threats against Belli—and this is another thing I know, -whether someone is on my phone and leaked it out—it wasn’t me, that the -sheriff is going to give Belli a guard out of town, that he has been -threatened, but I already knew that. Then, I got to thinking about all -of this and I says, “I hope he leaves, I don’t want to have this on my -mind,” but, I knew when I was in his suite of rooms—somebody called -there Monday afternoon sometime and he went to the phone for a minute; -as a rule someone else was answering the phone, and then he went in -the bedroom there and he answered the phone. He had quite a suite of -rooms—three rooms, I think, and the remark among the people there—they -said the sheriff is going to give him a guard, you know, escort him out -of town. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you heard that that afternoon. - -Mrs. GRANT. Too, but it wasn’t—I already had known that from the -conversation Saturday afternoon, it didn’t look good. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment upon this telephone call that he answered -himself? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; he hardly did any talking that afternoon. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned the telephone call, I wonder why you -did so, that is to say, what import you had put on it? - -Mrs. GRANT. You want to know the truth? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I want to know the truth. - -Mrs. GRANT. I was not thinking anything about it but he is coming back -for a trial and I told Phil recently, I thought he was going to get his -trial transferred from the Texas Bar Association and I guess he can’t. -I wasn’t going to say anything about it—I figured—he’s never coming -back, but now I am a little scared. I wouldn’t like anything—look, you -don’t want a lawyer in a case? - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish about this phone call—is there any other -significance to that phone call that you heard him answer? You -mentioned it in connection with this. - -Mrs. GRANT. It didn’t look right when he left—left the phone. - -Mr. HUBERT. That’s just an impression, though, he didn’t say anything -to indicate the nature of it? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. You indicated that perhaps, I say—you indicated—the way -you brought it up—it could be inferred perhaps that it was also a -threatening phone call? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, no; I didn’t mean that at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, do you know that to be a fact? - -Mrs. GRANT. No, no; this was merely that the sheriff said he was going -to escort him out of town. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was the sheriff on the phone? - -Mrs. GRANT. It could be—that’s what I felt, and shortly after this -there was another phone call came in and he went in and he took the -call. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you said the rumor or talk was that the sheriff was -going to escort him out of town, I assumed you meant he was going to -give him protection, is that what you meant? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s what I mean, so he doesn’t get hurt. Maybe the -sheriff knows something about this, although he does know—I don’t -know. I only know I was too sick after the verdict to even think about -anything, but now that I know he’s coming back, I asked Phil, I said, -“Do you think he’s coming back?” And he says, “Yes; he’s coming back.” - -Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Grant or Mr. Burleson, do you have any other matter I -have touched upon that you would like to bring up at this time? - -Mr. BURLESON. I would like to go into some of these things you have -just questioned her about. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Right at first, Mr. Tom Howard did go down and talk to -Jack on Sunday the 24th? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And did get a writ of habeas corpus, I believe? - -Mrs. GRANT. I know nothing of the court procedures of that date. - -Mr. BURLESON. You don’t know that Judge Brown did set a bond on assault -with intent to commit murder upon Lee Harvey Oswald before this hearing? - -Mrs. GRANT. I understand it was filed in Richardson. I may be wrong. -Someone told me that, that they did file a murder charge against Oswald. - -Mr. BURLESON. Before Oswald was pronounced dead, did you know anything -about Judge Joe B. Brown setting bond and granting a writ to let Jack -out on assault with intent to commit murder? - -Mrs. GRANT. I honestly—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you or not? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then, subsequently, Mr. Howard had myself go up and talk -to Jack—you learned that, did you not? - -Mrs. GRANT. I learned there were about three or four or five attorneys -that went up and talked to Jack. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then, Mr. Belli came in town and at the time, did you -hear from Mr. Tonahill? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. He called you in the middle of the night, I believe? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. And did he tell you that he and Mr. Belli were together? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he just mention himself? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. What did he say? - -Mrs. GRANT. He asked me if I had hired an attorney and I said, “I think -Earl got somebody.” And they were discussing it with Percy Foreman, but -I was wrong. They never got to Percy Foreman because Tom Howard never -called him. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then Melvin Belli did come in town and met with Mr. Tom -Howard and Mr. Tonahill? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And stayed out at the Cabana Hotel, I believe, the motel -out on Stemmons Freeway? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I was never at that hotel to visit them—I can’t -remember. - -Mr. BURLESON. Earl was in town at the same time Mr. Belli was in town? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think you are right there—that they were all over -there—Earl was there for a couple of days but I didn’t go there. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then Mr. Belli went down and talked with Jack prior to -the time and he said that he would accept the case, do you remember -that? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure he did. - -Mr. BURLESON. And after talking to Jack, do you remember he said he -would accept the case at that time? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burleson, may I make this suggestion—of course, this -is not a court hearing, on the other hand, for the sake of the value -of the testimony, I think if you wouldn’t lead her so much that the -testimony might have more weight. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I’ll tell you, my mind—I’m just about out of my mind. - -Mr. BURLESON. Yes. Do you know if that is when I became active in the -case—at that time? - -Mrs. GRANT. I think you came in about—it seems to me—about a week after -this incident—it seems to me that’s when I first met you. - -Mr. BURLESON. And do you know if Mr. Belli brought any attorneys with -him from California? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you know who that was? - -Mrs. GRANT. I know he brought Samuel Brody. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, after this, there was a bond hearing, I believe; is -that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And who sat at the counsel table with Mr. Ruby, your -brother? - -Mrs. GRANT. I know you were there and I know Mr. Brody and Tonahill, -Mr. Belli—I think Tom Howard was there right along then. - -Mr. BURLESON. And then, that actually was on one occasion or on two -occasions that that bond hearing was held; or do you recall? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me a couple of times—maybe more than that. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then bond was denied? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then, at the time of the change of venue, do you know who -the attorneys were at that time? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the same group were still there. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you recall about that time if anything occurred in -connection with Tom Howard and his connection with the case? - -Mrs. GRANT. About the picture? - -Mr. BURLESON. No; just about whether or not he continued in the case or -did he? - -Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me at that time—he was leaking information to -the district attorney’s office, he was in the way of Mr. Belli and Mr. -Tonahill—at least they felt that or they told me that. We had found a -mistrust in him, which is close to that time as I can remember, where -information has come to us that Tom Howard is trying to sell a picture -of the late President Kennedy being shot and half of his skull is in -the air, to Life magazine, and I think Billy Woodfield had told that -to Earl and Earl told me to get ahold of the Secret Service, they came -out to see me and Elmer Moore, and another gentleman—I cannot think of -the other gentleman’s name—he probably could recall—and we went in the -alley because I don’t know if my place is bugged or not, and the Secret -Service stepped in to either squash the sale of this particular picture -or got ahold of it—the films and everything, and, of course, when Belli -found out, he was sick because he said it don’t look right for an -attorney representing a person to do something like this. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. Anyway—somewhere around there—— - -Mr. HUBERT. May I examine her just a little on that point? - -Mr. BURLESON. Yes; go ahead. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out whether it was true that Mr. Howard -was doing this? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, since then I heard it was true, but doubly true -there’s some girl that works for one of your departments who heard and -who told another person that there is evidence there is a picture of -that kind in existence. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen the picture? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; I haven’t. I also heard several days before the -assassination there was a pamphlet put in all the drugstores where you -sell magazines and was distributed all through the city of Dallas with -the late President’s picture, and the top of its says, “Wanted” and the -bottom had a number like a jailman, you know, a convict, and the day of -the assassination, early that afternoon these distributors had a devil -of a time trying to remember all the places they placed that particular -pamphlet, that was for sale for 10 cents or 15 cents. - -Mr. BURLESON. Come back up to his question. - -Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to explore whether or not it had come to your -knowledge whether the story was the truth or not? - -Mrs. GRANT. This all came to me—call me back on the word “communism” -that I said later on, if you want? - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you know anything else about this alleged sale of the -picture? - -Mrs. GRANT. Nothing, but Earl told me to get ahold of the men here and -I did and I called the office and Elmer Moore came out and I told him. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right. Coming back—along about this time—did you, -Earl, and Stanley Kaufman and so forth enter into some kind of a -contract with Mr. Howard where he would withdraw from the case? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did you pay him some money? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; the first week he was in, I had a little money and I -think it was when I sold the Vegas Club and I think I had $1,600 and I -had bills to pay but I didn’t pay them and I gave him $200. - -Mr. BURLESON. At the time that you terminated his services in the case, -did you pay him some money then? - -Mrs. GRANT. We gave him a check for $2,000—we gave him $2,700 -altogether, but I gave him $2,000 when he signed the contract to step -out of the case. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, when the change of venue hearing started—— - -Mrs. GRANT. By the way, when I say “I gave him”—that money came also -out of the $23,000. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, when the change of venue started and the picking of -the jury followed, who were the attorneys then that were sitting there -at the counsel table? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Belli, Tonahill and yourself—I don’t remember—I think -Sam Brody was sick and went home. However, Mr. Belli brought in a young -gentleman who came and sat for a while. - -Mr. BURLESON. Could that have been Mr. Bill Choulous? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And that was out of Mr. Belli’s office? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then, when it got into the actual trial of the case after -the change of venue lasted about a week, who were the attorneys then -during the picking of the jury? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Mr. Burleson, Mr. Joe Tonahill, and Mr. Belli did all -the work from picking the jury and through the trial. - -Mr. BURLESON. The three of them? - -Mrs. GRANT. The three of them. - -Mr. BURLESON. And they continued on through the trial? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And they were the only ones sitting with Jack Ruby at the -time of the verdict? - -Mrs. GRANT. You know, I was not in the courtroom all during the trial. -They kept me out in the lobby, but I do know—that is what I heard or -saw. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, within a week after the verdict came in, did you -write a letter to Mr. Belli dismissing him from the case or asking him -to withdraw, one or the other? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. You told him in the letter—what? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, I couldn’t reach him by telephone and since he’s -traveling around, and I’m—— - -Mr. BURLESON. What did you tell him in the letter? - -Mrs. GRANT. Say it again? - -Mr. BURLESON. Did you tell him in effect if he didn’t resign you would -fire him? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, yes; words to that effect. - -Mr. BURLESON. In other words, he did resign? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was published in the press, was it not? - -Mrs. GRANT. No—I never gave it to them. If it was, it shouldn’t be, -because we only made three copies, the original went to him and one -to Mr. Burleson and one to Tonahill. I didn’t want any more copies -around—I didn’t want that—that was one of the things that bothered me. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, ma’am, I had the impression that I had seen -that letter through seeing a copy of it in the press. - -Mrs. GRANT. If you did—I didn’t see it here, or we didn’t, and we would -have known it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—I may be mistaken. - -Mrs. GRANT. That is one thing—that’s the whole thing—the whole case was -tried in the papers. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, after that you were feeling pretty low and sick at -that time, weren’t you? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did your family—Earl and Sam and sisters go down to -Houston and talk to Mr. Percy Foreman? - -Mrs. GRANT. They did. - -Mr. BURLESON. Was a contract drawn up at that time? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; there was. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did Mr. Foreman know you had Jack Ruby’s power of -attorney? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know what they told him but it was well indicated -that I was now controlling. I took over Earl Ruby’s power. - -Mr. BURLESON. What did Mr. Foreman do as to whether or not he made any -announcements as to whether he was the attorney? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, he immediately called in the press. He immediately -stated what he wanted, he took pictures of my family and he said he -wanted $5,000 within 10 days and another $5,000 30 days following the -10 days. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he come to Dallas shortly thereafter? - -Mrs. GRANT. The following week, I think, he came to Dallas—it wasn’t -that weekend, it was the following weekend—am I right—or was it that -week? - -Mr. BURLESON. That week—I think they went down there, if I might help -you a little bit, about Monday. - -Mrs. GRANT. He came down on a Saturday—I did not see him, but I spoke -with him over the phone. I thought he asked too much money. He wanted -power of attorney and I wasn’t happy about the contract, because these -contracts have a—— - -Mr. BURLESON. You had not signed a contract? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. BURLESON. Anyway, he went and visited Jack? - -Mrs. GRANT. And he wanted Jack to come downstairs to take pictures with -him and our civil attorney, Stanley Marcus—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you mean Stanley Kaufman? - -Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman, pardon me, wouldn’t permit it. He said -“This is one of the reasons Mrs. Grant and her family didn’t want Belli -in the picture. There has been too much newspaper publicity, radio, -and television. He couldn’t be hurt any worse and there is no sense of -you getting into this widespread publicity,” and Mr. Foreman and Mr. -Kaufman got into some squabble there and Mr. Kaufman left heated, I -understand, and Mr. Percy Foreman called me later that afternoon that -he was coming out to see me in the evening. He heard I had a doctor and -I was sick. He didn’t show up. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he make arrangements to meet you the next morning? - -Mrs. GRANT. He did. - -Mr. BURLESON. Monday morning? - -Mrs. GRANT. At 9:30. - -Mr. BURLESON. Where? - -Mrs. GRANT. In the lobby of his hotel—the Statler. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did you come down? - -Mrs. GRANT. I came down. - -Mr. BURLESON. With whom? - -Mrs. GRANT. With my sister Eileen. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did you meet him? - -Mrs. GRANT. I met Mr. Burleson and Mr. Tonahill and we waited, and -we went upstairs and waited—we ordered some coffee and a roll and we -waited there about an hour and 40 minutes. The telephone rang and a -news commentator was on the phone and Mr. Burleson answered it and Mr. -Burleson was shocked from what he heard on the phone, that Mr. Percy -Foreman, instead of coming down to his own room to see us, he went to -the newspaper office somewhere or television or radio—I have no idea, -and made a public display of himself, that he is withdrawing from the -case. He indicated that he didn’t get along with the family and he -didn’t like our attorney—our civil attorney. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did you at any time see him personally? - -Mrs. GRANT. I never met him personally. - -Mr. BURLESON. He then got out of the case and hasn’t had anything to do -with it since? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. BURLESON. Then, shortly thereafter, did you have an opportunity to -have a conference with Dr. Hubert Winston Smith? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BURLESON. And did you, Jack, and everybody sign a contract with Dr. -Hubert Smith? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Employing him as chief counsel? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes—as chief counsel. - -Mr. BURLESON. And keeping Mr. Tonahill and myself on? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Subsequent to that time, did your brother up in Chicago -talk to a Mr. Charles Bellows? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, Mr. Bellows knew about this case right along because -members of the family have known him for 20 or 30 years. I have never -known him—I have heard of him—they went to him, and it’s got so sick -and sickening here that Earl decided, as a friend, he could help us and -he is in the background. - -Mr. BURLESON. Would you say he is in more an advisory capacity? - -Mrs. GRANT. Just as a good family friend, and he is, I understand, a -very fine great criminal lawyer and he wants to help. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you are speaking of the present as well as the past? - -Mrs. GRANT. In the past he didn’t intercede because he figured Belli -would be capable. Not that—now, wait a minute—I don’t mean to say that -they are not—it’s just after there is so much to it and he has heard -how the case was handled, and since Earl went to him. - -Mr. BURLESON. And Mr. Bellows did make one trip down to Dallas? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he did. - -Mr. BURLESON. And stayed a matter of hours and then flew on back? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. So that to get back to what we wanted to answer the -question he asked you earlier—who are the present attorneys now? - -Mrs. GRANT. Phil Burleson, who is doing most of the work, Mr. Joe -Tonahill, Mr. Hubert Winston Smith, and Mr. Charles Bellows. - -Mr. BURLESON. And Bellows is in an advisory capacity to help any way he -can? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. I’m sorry I forgot about some of them. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, going to this money situation—as far as you know, -recognizing that you are under oath—as far as you know, there were no -contributions of any large sum other than the one $250 that you have -talked about. - -Mrs. GRANT. That was the largest and the one and only of that kind. - -Mr. BURLESON. Have you heard rumors that the Ruby defense fund received -large sums? - -Mrs. GRANT. I have heard they got—I think they’ve got close to a -thousand dollars—I may be wrong. - -Mr. BURLESON. I mean, have you heard rumors for instance, not too long -ago I heard a rumor that Stanley Marcus gave $25,000; have you heard -rumors similar to that? - -Mrs. GRANT. I have heard many of those kind by different people but we -haven’t received it. - -Mr. BURLESON. You know nothing about any such large sum? - -Mrs. GRANT. (Shaking head so as to indicate a negative reply.) - -Mr. HUBERT. She is shaking her head—the answer is “no”. - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh. I’m sorry; no. - -Mr. BURLESON. Mainly, the only things you know about personally or -have heard about from other members of the family are the sale to the -magazine of the story, which you have told us about, and the small -amount you have told us about? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And you know of no organization that has given any sum? - -Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know—they may be now—Earl is trying to talk to -some organizations that he belongs to like B’nai B’rith, that he used -to belong to—I don’t know. This is what I know—what I told you. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, but you don’t know of any—say—labor unions or -civic clubs or anything like that that have given any money? - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure—I’m sure they haven’t. In fact, wait a -minute—Michael Levin, another good friend of the family—we know him -only for 45 years and he’s my older brother’s friend since they were -14 years old and he has compiled a letter and is asking certain -individuals that he knows—doctors, lawyers, big business people—to -contribute, and when I talked to Eileen last, which was Saturday, she -said, “We didn’t receive one—” some of them don’t even answer the -letters and some say they haven’t got it or something else. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, there were some reports in the newspapers concerning -the fact that Dr. Hubert Winston Smith was going to raise a lot of -money. - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, we hope he’s going to raise a lot of money—we hope he -can raise sufficient money to cover legal fees. He’s interested in an -academy institute of law and science. - -Mr. BURLESON. Have you received any money from Dr. Winston Smith? - -Mrs. GRANT. No; and I don’t think he’s gotten anything or even worked -on it yet. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, to clarify my position in the thing—you have paid -me, the family has paid me a total for everything, somewhere in the -neighborhood of $700 or $800 or $900? - -Mrs. GRANT. At the most—that’s right. - -Mr. BURLESON. You are trying to get more together, though, aren’t you? - -Mrs. GRANT. Well, now, wait a minute—Belli was supposed to pay out of -that $13,000—$2,000—I asked him what he was going to pay you. He didn’t -pay you? - -Mr. BURLESON. Right. - -Mrs. GRANT. As he told me. - -Mr. BURLESON. Right. - -Mrs. GRANT. And I know he didn’t pay you—that was up until the time he -didn’t pay you at that time. - -Mr. BURLESON. But I have entered into a verbal contract with you and -the other members of the family for you to compensate me on the appeal -and things of that nature—right? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. I’m through, as far as I am concerned, on that point. -Now, is there anything other than what we have talked about here that -you want to clarify further—— - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I want to clarify—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Wait, let me finish—or do you think that we haven’t -talked about anything that you feel like is important that you would -like to state at this time? - -Mrs. GRANT. We have never received money from any unethical -organization, labor work, gratis, friends, or relatives such as -gangsters or unions or Jack has gotten one dime out of anybody of -that kind, or racketeer money, bookies or any type of, you know, -discriminating businesses of any kind. I know his finances, I know -where he has gotten 99 percent of his money and that is from members -of the family. In fact, they can ask Marian and Earl a good deal about -that. - -I also know the night of November 22 when Jack was with me the evening -before—7:15—during that short time he was with me and they were talking -about Oswald, I had made the statement and this is what I said. “Don’t -worry,” and I told it to the FBI and I didn’t see it in the report. - -Mr. BURLESON. “Don’t worry”—what? - -Mrs. GRANT. “That lousy Communist”—I’m referring to, and I mean, I -assumed this myself. - -Mr. BURLESON. And you said it in Jack’s presence? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. “Don’t worry, that some lousy Communist will -get him before anybody else does.” - -Mr. BURLESON. The Communist will get him before anybody else? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s just what I said and I did not see it in this -report—I don’t think I saw it. I did say it because I already talked -to four or five people on the phone and I’m going to tell you why I -said that—everyone on television and it seems it was Curry, which is -our chief of police—says he’s someone that’s come out with three draft -cards, he has been in Cuba and he defected to Russia and I think my -mind is like 40 million other grownups, decided that he was a Communist -sent here for this kind of a thing and the people that I knew that I -speak to on the phone at that time or had been friends with all felt -the same way or talked about it in that way. He couldn’t help but think -that. It’s because what television has presented to the public, and -then this thing in the paper and this was only Friday evening, and I -have made that remark—I made it not only to him, to Pauline Hall, and -to Madeline Blainey and to Emma and to Leo and whoever called I kept -talking about that and made that remark, and I made it not only to him -but to these others, and I kept talking about it because I was imbedded -with that in my mind from television. They kept talking about it—they -indicated he had three draft cards, he went to Russia and they threw -him out and they planted him here and he went to Cuba and he had money -and he was going to hire a plane. - -Mr. BURLESON. Okay—anything else you want to go into this to clarify -this? - -Mrs. GRANT. Jack has always been a fighter for the Jews. Any—in the -Army, if they look back, he didn’t mind—if you fought and if you cussed -and they said words like sheeny or kike or Jew—he belted it out to -them. I know my brother Jack. He told me of different incidents. One of -the things that he loved about this President—he didn’t care what you -were, you were a human being and Jack felt that this was one time in -history that Jews are getting the break. He put in great Jewish men in -office, they were fit to hold the office, and, of course, we are not -Catholics and we never discuss religion in that effect, but my brother -had such a great admiration for this man. It’s unbelievable. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever tell you why he shot Oswald? - -Mrs. GRANT. The truth is this—here recently with his head out—he said -he did it for Jackie and the kids, but I think he’s just looking for a -reason. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the first few days? - -Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t talk—for 10 days he never mentioned it and I -never mentioned it, but in this white overall he had a little picture -and on one side is the late President’s picture in color. It is the -most beautiful picture of him that I have seen. On the other side is a -prayer of the Catholics. I have never seen my brother carry anything -like that. He is definitely a good Jew no matter what people think. -He had kissed the President’s picture in front of me—right in front -of me like a baby, and he held that card prayer and his lawyers have -seen him, and I don’t know what denomination they all are—we don’t go -that way. He just held that card there, there’s a little pocket in -there—all he knows—let me put it this way—it maybe was in back of his -mind something that I don’t know or nobody knows, but he loved the -President, but he had no idea of doing this. In the first place—— - -Mr. HUBERT. It wouldn’t do any good, I don’t believe, for you to give -your opinions. - -Mrs. GRANT. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you know from what he told you, that’s another matter, -but you say he has not told you that? - -Mrs. GRANT. This was a shock out of my wits. - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you this—he didn’t tell you that, then? - -Mrs. GRANT. No. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, something we haven’t gone into and might be relevant -to this—Jack had a great acquaintance with the police, didn’t he? - -Mrs. GRANT. Far greater than the average citizen of this city, unless -they were a wife of a man. - -Mr. BURLESON. Could you tell us what Jack’s attitude was toward the -police? - -Mrs. GRANT. They were very friendly, he admired them, he thought they -were good people. On many occasions some policeman would have a night -off and he would want to take his wife out on his anniversary and it’s -in between paydays, Jack would let him have $10 and he would say, “I’ll -write a check” and so Jack didn’t want to take the check and sometimes -he would hold it 6 years and this check was still in there which they -can see among his possessions. He admired the police department. He was -very close. In fact, he entertained them in the club on their nights -off and I’m positive some have been out to his apartment. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you know whether or not Jack knew Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mrs. GRANT. He said he knew a Tippit but it’s like me—there was a -Tipton, a Tippit, and a Tipin (spelling) p-i-n, and a Tipton, and as -far as I was concerned, even when Payton was talking to me, they were -all the same man, until much later I found out there are three Tippits, -there is a Tipton and a Tipin. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack, during the period November 22 through the last -time you talked to him on the 23d or the 24th of November, say anything -to you about the fact that Officer Tippit was killed? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; on Saturday evening, during this 4-hour period I was -very sick and I, of course—I was physically sick besides mentally sick -now over the assassination of the President, and we talked about the -Governor being shot and different things and he says, “You think you -will be all right to go to the funeral,” but I was so sick. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did he say what funeral? - -Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he meant the policeman’s funeral—Tippit’s. Of -course, a lot of people don’t know—he went to all of the policemen’s -funerals and, of course, there has been a few funerals—if it was a -member of their families and if he knew the fellows he would go. He was -that kind. He tried to pay his respects to people. - -Mr. BURLESON. But he did have a conversation about Tippit? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. What did he say about Tippit being killed? - -Mrs. GRANT. He said, “You think you will be all right”—and this was -Saturday, and I said, “Yes,” and he said, “Well, do you think you will -be all right?” And I hollered back like—I said, “Yes—yes,” and not to -bother me. I was too sick—I didn’t even want to think of it, but I’ll -be honest, all the time he’s talking to me I had it in my mind—“I’m not -going, I’m too sick and I know I ain’t going to feel good Monday,” see. - -Mr. BURLESON. In other words, he told you he had planned to go to -Tippit’s funeral on Monday? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—no; he didn’t say “Monday”, he did not say -Monday—he didn’t say the date. - -Mr. BURLESON. Whenever it was? - -Mrs. GRANT. He said to the funeral. - -Mr. BURLESON. Tippit’s funeral? - -Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but he says—he saw I was sick and he figured maybe I -don’t want to get out and he says, “Do you think you can go to dinner -tomorrow?” And he does take me to dinner. - -Mr. BURLESON. But anyway, he had made arrangements or was telling you -that he and you were going to the funeral of Tippit, is that right? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s correct—that’s what he thought. - -Mr. BURLESON. But you didn’t feel up to it physically? - -Mrs. GRANT. That Saturday I couldn’t see myself going, I’ll tell you, I -just wanted to quiet him down. - -Mr. BURLESON. And as far as you know. Jack did not know Tippit? - -Mrs. GRANT. I don’t—I don’t know, all I could tell you is that Jack -lived in Oak Cliff for a couple of years or maybe a year and a half -and Tippit, being of that area, he could have run into him and known -of him slightly. He didn’t know him as well as other policemen that I -know he knows. I know of policemen much closer than him, but since this -all happened, one of my coworkers, Leo Torti, showed me a magazine and -Tippit was in our club sometime—a month previous to this—previous to -his killing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a picture of Tippit? - -Mrs. GRANT. It was a picture of Tippit, and he said, “Do you remember -he talked to you up at the front, he was in in September or October or -November sometime.” - -Mr. BURLESON. Was that the Carousel or the Vegas? - -Mrs. GRANT. The Vegas, and while I looked at him then I remembered that -he looked familiar, but truthfully, you know, after the President’s -assassination and this incident of my brother I didn’t see any -newspaper. I didn’t look for anything to read. I had no television or -radio on—I couldn’t take it. - -Mr. BURLESON. Mr. Hubert, I think that is all I have along that line. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Grant, earlier today, as a matter of fact, at the -very beginning or prior to the beginning of the deposition, I showed -you a list of names and telephone numbers and addresses on a document -consisting of 37 pages, marked with a large “E”, and asked you to go -through that list and make a check mark as to every name and number -that had any significance to you at all. - -Now, you have done so and I am going to ask, if I may, with the consent -of your attorney, that I now read off that list of names as to those -names that you have checked off, and I am going to request the reporter -to make a special list of those that you have checked off and hand -it to you so that you may make comments of your own, and then after -consultation with your attorney, draft up an affidavit as to what -comments you have to make with respect to each one of these people. In -other words, you have indicated that the names that have been checked -off have a significance to you. - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to prepare notes and with the assistance -of your attorney, draft an affidavit as to what significance each one -of these names has. I understand that it will be perhaps a matter of 2 -weeks or so before you can get that because there are quite a number of -names. - -Now, I will read those names so that the record will show which of the -names you have marked off. I understand that as to those you have not -marked off, those names have no significance to you; is that correct? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—I can’t relate them to anything. - -Mr. BURLESON. May I make a suggestion—it may be a little time -consuming, but if she could look back through that now that she has -had an opportunity to testify and recall many, many things that she -probably hasn’t thought of in some time—she could very quickly look at -the ones she didn’t check? - -Mrs. GRANT. Is it possible that some of those are license plate -numbers—could you tell? - -Mr. HUBERT. They seem to be mostly telephone numbers. - -Mr. BURLESON. Yes; ma’am—that’s right. - -Mrs. GRANT. May I explain something to you? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; please. - -Mrs. GRANT. All right. Jack would be driving along in his car and there -would be a young lady drive up to the right of him. If she didn’t have -a marriage ring and she looked cute and he thought she might like to -see a little night life he would let her pass—he would look at her -license number and copy the number and find out in the city hall where -to send her—her name and address and the telephone—a complimentary card -to come to the Vegas Club—he as a host. - -Now, I told this to Payton and the other people and he would send these -people cards because girls would come to the club and ask me, “Where is -Mr. Ruby?” And I would say, “He’s not here.” And they said, “Well, he -sent me this complimentary card.” Once I said something to him about it -and he said “Oh, I sent this to a girl,” and I never thought anything -about it. Finally, when he was arrested and I knew they found a lot of -numbers, I said to him, “What are these numbers for?” And he said, “You -know they are license plate numbers.” - -Mr. HUBERT. I see your point—it might be better if we gave her the -whole list. - -Mrs. GRANT. I’m not going to steal it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I can’t give you this list but I can get these names run -off. - -Mr. BURLESON. Suppose we do it that way and it may be that in time she -can reflect better. - -Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we do it that way, then, and instead of doing it -the way we have agreed, I will supply you with a list of all of these -names and ask that you look at all of them and possibly you will see -some that you have overlooked? - -Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—there may be one or two that I have overlooked. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I will ask you, then, to give us an affidavit as to the -significance of any of these. - -Mrs. GRANT. I will be happy to. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would ask that you give us the affidavit only upon your -own knowledge. - -Mr. BURLESON. Not as to what she has heard? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, if she indicates it is what she knows from her own -knowledge as apart from what she has heard. - -Mrs. GRANT. These are mostly strippers and waitresses that I know or -have known, or comedians. Listen, what happened to the two boxes of -names and addresses that they took out? - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, ma’am. It may well be that these are they. - -Mrs. GRANT. That isn’t enough. - -Mr. HUBERT. Off the record. - -(Discussion between counsel and the witness as to the names shown on -the list heretofore referred to.) - -Mr. BURLESON. May I ask you—do you want this in one single affidavit, -paragraph by paragraph? - -Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think so. I think that the affidavit could be in -the usual form. - -Mr. BURLESON. What I am asking is, do you want a single affidavit as to -each one of the names here? - -Mr. HUBERT. I think not, I think the usual affidavit form—one that says -that—having been handed a list and so forth, that she has the following -comment to make on each and then in numerical sequence, and as to the -rest of them there is no significance. - -Mr. BURLESON. And one notary signature will be sufficient? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. And then there will be just one instrument? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mrs. GRANT. I do want to say this: Do you know Jack in his early -teens and in the early thirties—he and these bad boys he later on -disassociated himself with, they were people in the neighborhood—broke -up Bund meetings in Chicago—do you know Chicago at all? - -Mr. HUBERT. No. - -Mr. BURLESON. For the record, I have no other questions to ask. - -Mr. HUBERT. I haven’t either. Thank you very much. - -Mrs. GRANT. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SAM RUBY - -The testimony of Sam Ruby was taken at 10:55 a.m., on May 29, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant -counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Ruby was accompanied by his -attorney, Phil Burleson. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Sam Ruby. - -Mr. Ruby, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive -Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress -No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s -Commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint -resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of -the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death -of Oswald and of the life of your brother, Jack Ruby, and any other -pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. - -Mr. Ruby, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of a letter -addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of -the President’s Commission. Did you receive that letter? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the day that you did receive it. - -Mr. RUBY. I believe it was Tuesday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a -3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition, but the -rules also provide that you may waive that notice if you wish and -testify right now. Do you wish to do so? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do—I wish to testify. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like the record to show also that Mr. Phil -Burleson, attorney at law, is present and representing Mr. Sam Ruby; is -that correct? - -Mr. BURLESON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand and take the oath, please? And raise -your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you state your full name, please? - -Mr. RUBY. Samuel David Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you. Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. 51. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? - -Mr. RUBY. At 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Mr. RUBY. I am a washing machine repairman at washaterias. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, you have heretofore been interviewed by the FBI -on four different occasions and I would like you to tell me about -those. In order that we may proceed in that way, I wish to identify an -interview of you on November 24, 1963, by FBI Agents Sayres [spelling] -S-a-y-r-e-s, and Eckenrode. That interview consists of six pages—on the -first page I have marked on the right margin the following: “Dallas, -Texas, May 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have -placed my name beneath that and on the right-hand lower corner of each -of the succeeding five pages I have placed my initials for the purpose -of identification. - -Now, I ask you if you have had occasion to read this document which I -have identified as Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to express your opinion as to the -correctness of that report of the interview? - -Mr. RUBY. They are correct as far as that is concerned. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any changes or any suggestions or modifications in -any way that you wish to make with respect to that statement? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I think he has them. - -Mr. BURLESON. On page 6; in previously going over this, Mr. Hubert, I -think there are some things he would like to comment on and I will ask -him about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. - -Mr. BURLESON. On page 6, the first paragraph—there is a statement -that “This man’s name was Leo, last name unknown. Jack fired this man -because he said he was stealing from him.” - -I’ll ask you whether or not you now have found out or since that time, -have found out Leo’s last name? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I found out his name. - -Mr. BURLESON. What is that? - -Mr. RUBY. Torti [spelling] T-o-r-t-i; I believe is the way he spells it. - -Mr. BURLESON. And as to the second statement there about Jack firing -this man, do you now know that that was not the situation? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes: I found out that he was not quite competent as Jack -would have him and there were a few things that he didn’t take care of, -in other words, when my brother told him to do it and he neglected to -do a few things. - -Mr. BURLESON. And that was the reason for the firing of Torti rather -than stealing? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. BURLESON. And subject to that correction you told Mr. Hubert, -everything else appeared to be correct, as I understand it now? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to state that when you made the statement -that you have just modified on page 6 of Exhibit No. 1 that you had the -impression that the man had been fired because he had been stealing -from Jack and that impression has been clarified since that; is that -correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was it clarified? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, since talking to Jack and at the time—Jack mentioned -a few things that—when I come to the club, which I did a few times to -visit him and see the show and to watch the admission being taken and -put in the register properly, and that gave me the impression that -maybe he just wanted to see that maybe Leo didn’t forget to do those -things. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have since talked to your brother Jack and he has -clarified this matter, so that you are now able to state that your -present understanding is that it was not because of an allegation of -stealing, but rather because he was incompetent; is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Right; and Jack’s idea about managing the club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you another report of an interview of you by -FBI Agent Alfred Sayres on November 27, 1963, which I have marked for -identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 29, 1963, Exhibit No. -2, deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name and all of which -appears in the right margin of this one page document and I ask you the -same question with respect to that, that is, if it is correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Which paragraph is that? - -Mr. HUBERT. The entire document—I am speaking of the entire document—I -think you have just read it. - -Mr. BURLESON. That’s the one you said was all right. - -Mr. RUBY (reading instrument referred to). I think I recall when Jack -was hospitalized, I think it was in Chicago. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, let me ask you a question—in regard to the -second paragraph which says—“He said he knows of no time when Jack Ruby -has ever been hospitalized for any reason.” Does something come to your -mind in reference to the hospitalization of Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he was struck in back of the head, I think he was -scalping tickets at one of the sporting events—at football or one of -those events in Chicago—and the police officer told him not to scalp, -told him to leave the premises where the sporting event was being held, -and Jack refused to do so, and anyway—I don’t know what the deal was, -but Jack was hit on the back of the head with a club or something -like that, and he had a big bandage on the back of his head, and he -was hospitalized then, but I don’t remember what year it was—I don’t -remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, with that amplification or correction of Exhibit -No. 2, is the exhibit otherwise correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they tell me—I talked to the family and they say that -my mother was hospitalized in Elgin. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right; let me ask you—you are now referring to the -third paragraph and a sentence in there that says, “This was the -Dunning Hospital on Irving Boulevard in Chicago?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. You have subsequently found out that it may have been a -different hospital? - -Mr. RUBY. Right; after I talked to some members of the family and they -say it was in Elgin, Ill., which is a mental hospital. - -Mr. BURLESON. And are there any other corrections or additions you want -to make to that statement? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I found out since, that my sister, Eileen, had somewhat -of a nervous breakdown since she came here to visit during the trial. - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—you are now referring to the last -paragraph that says, “He knows of no other indications of any mental -illnesses in his family.” What have you found out since you made that -statement? - -Mr. RUBY. My sister Eileen was treated by a doctor during—following a -nervous breakdown some years ago—we found out during the course of the -trial when she was here. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did you find out anything about Earl having any type of -mental disorder, either in the service or subsequent thereto? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, here it is. - -Mr. BURLESON. You have that in there? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where your sister was hospitalized or treated? - -Mr. RUBY. My sister Eileen Kaminsky—no; I don’t, but she did mention -she was having some difficulty. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you got that information from her? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t know it at the time of the interview covered -by Exhibit No. 2, to wit: November 27, 1963? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, this document is correct, that is Exhibit -No. 2, is that right? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you Exhibit No. 3, which you have already read, -and that Exhibit No. 3 is an interview of you by Alfred Sayres, having -been dated November 29. I have marked it for identification as follows: -“Dallas, Tex., May 29, 1964, as Exhibit No. 3 to the deposition of -Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name below it and I ask you if that -document is correct? - -Mr. RUBY (reading instrument referred to). Well, the first paragraph -there? - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—in reference to the first paragraph -starting with “Samuel David Ruby, 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex., -advised that he has no interest financial or administrative in the -S & R Corp. He further advised that he has no interest financial or -administrative in the Carousel Club or in the Club Vegas in Dallas, -Tex., which clubs are operated by his brother, Jack Ruby. He further -advised that he is not aware that his name has ever appeared on any -document as an officer in the S & R Corp., or in any way in the -operation of the Carousel Club or the Club Vegas.” - -Have you, since you made that statement back on the 29th of November -1963, been informed of some facts that are contrary to what you stated -at that time, and do you wish to explain to Mr. Hubert what that is? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I found out from Ralph Paul, who was also a stockholder, -that I was a member of the corporation and that I was issued shares -of stock in the S & R Corp., but I have never seen them, I have never -received them or have never seen any of the corporation papers, so I -am just taking his word for it, and I still don’t know, but they say it -and also in the Vegas Club, I hold a chattel mortgage on that, which -has not fully been paid off. I don’t know whether you would consider -that a financial interest in that or not. Jack never paid me off the -full amount. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does that have to do with reference to a loan that had been -made by you to him? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And at an earlier date upon which you got a judgment in -your favor? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, we will touch upon that a little later, and I think -that will be clarified. It is a fact, I take it, until you were advised -by Mr. Paul that your name appeared on the corporate papers, you didn’t -know anything about it until then? - -Mr. RUBY. No; this last, this third paragraph, I think I found out from -my brother Earl. - -Mr. BURLESON. All right, let me make reference to a particular sentence -in there. In the third paragraph of the statement, “He further advised -that sometime during the fall or early winter of 1960, his sister, -Marion Caroll, visited in Dallas and while here loaned Jack Ruby a -fairly large sum of money. He said she later regretted making this loan -and his brother Earl came to Dallas sometime in the spring of 1961 for -the purpose of recovering the amount of this loan for Marion. He said -he does not know if Earl was successful in this attempt or if Earl paid -Marion the amount of the loan and thereby became a creditor of Jack -Ruby.” - -What have you found out since making that statement that might make -some difference? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, part of that I believe is true—Earl did come down here -to try to get some of that money back, but I also found out that he let -Jack have some money of his own because Jack was having some financial -difficulties with the Carousel Club. It was changed then and I think it -was the Sovereign Club or the Carousel. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did you find that out from? - -Mr. RUBY. From Earl. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how much? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t say—he may have said, but I don’t recall, but I -know he says he let him have some money. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, are there any other changes or corrections to -Exhibit No. 3? - -Mr. RUBY. No; if he has an interest—I don’t know whether he has an -interest—if it’s in writing—he may have. - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—are you referring to the fourth paragraph -that says, “He says he does not know whether or not Earl Ruby has -a financial interest in the Carousel Club or the Club Vegas at -Dallas, but if he does have, this interest may have arisen out of the -above-mentioned loan.” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s right—that is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is correct, but I don’t know about it. - -Mr. BURLESON. That’s what you have heard? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that all as to Exhibit No. 3, then? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right—well, now—— - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you this—you are now referring to the last -paragraph. “He concluded by stating that he has no knowledge of the -financial or corporate structures of the S & R Corporation or of the -Carousel Club or Club Vegas in Dallas, Tex.” Do you want to change that -in the light of what you have heard since that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way—when that statement was given, that -was true, you did not have that knowledge? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you want to say now is that you have found out -something since? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it is? - -Mr. RUBY. I found out that a certain amount of shares were issued to me -in the S & R Corp. and that I was a vice president in the corporation. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you did not know that at the time you made this -statement? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you find out those facts from? - -Mr. RUBY. From Ralph Paul. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is the only source of your information, is that -correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen the shares? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I never have seen them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen any of the books or papers of the -corporation that would indicate it? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But your sole source of information as to your present -statement is the information obtained from Ralph Paul? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any other inquiry about the matter? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, we tried looking through the Carousel Club files up -there—they had these metal files. We went through those and we couldn’t -find any papers, any corporation papers and no one of the attorneys -seemed to have them at the time and Stanley Kaufman, who was a personal -friend of his, and he is an attorney here in town, he didn’t have them -and he didn’t know where they were, and we couldn’t locate them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you invest any money for the purchase of the shares of -stock which apparently might have been issued to you? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t invest any. Jack may have transferred some of -the money that he owed me as a financial transaction. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is that he owed you some money and he may -have issued the stock to you? - -Mr. RUBY. To cover that. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a way of paying the loan? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he didn’t tell you he was doing so? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any further comments as to Exhibit No. 3? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which purports to be a report of -an interview of you by Alfred Sayres, FBI agent, on December 5, 1963, -and for the purpose of identification I have marked that document, -“Dallas, Tex., May 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of Sam -Ruby,” and I have signed my name below that, and it consists of one -page, and I ask you the same question with respect to that document? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, this first paragraph—I found out that he had—that he -did make a trip to Cuba. - -Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—you are referring to the first paragraph -which starts off: “Samuel David Ruby, 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, -Tex., advised telephonically that he knows of no trip to Cuba made by -Jack Ruby at any time. It was explained to Mr. Ruby that if such a trip -were made it had been alleged Jack Ruby made the trip with a gambler -from Fort Worth, Texas. He suggested that such a person may have been -a man by the name of McWillie whom he has heard mentioned as a gambler -and a friend of Jack Ruby.” What do you now know in reference to that, -that you have found out since that time? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, from Jack himself—this was in the Dallas County -Courthouse in jail, that Mr. McWillie sent him the airplane tickets for -him to go to Cuba and to be his guest while he was there. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you get that information from Jack Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—sometime ago—I believe it was during the -trial—during the course of the trial. - -Mr. HUBERT. You visited him at the Dallas County Jail, is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And during the course of that conversation he told you that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him about it or did he volunteer the -information? - -Mr. RUBY. I asked him about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you think that was during the trial but before the -verdict? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the trial—do you remember? - -Mr. RUBY. It was more or less during the beginning of it—most likely. - -Mr. HUBERT. In February? - -Mr. RUBY. Probably was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say about Exhibit No. 4? - -Mr. RUBY. Everything is all right on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that your name and Jack’s—the family name -was Rubenstein. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that you changed your name to Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was that change made? - -Mr. RUBY. In Chicago, Ill. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was by a regular court proceeding in the courts of -Illinois? - -Mr. RUBY. Right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And did you know that Jack had also changed his name? - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know definitely whether he changed it legally. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that your brother Earl had changed his name? - -Mr. RUBY. We changed ours at the same time. We were in business -together. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to ask you is whether or not the change of -name of you and Earl and Jack was by a common understanding, that you -all would change your name? - -Mr. RUBY. No; just Earl and I had a common understanding. We were in -business together at the same time and we used the same attorney. - -Mr. HUBERT. What business was that that you were in? - -Mr. RUBY. We were in the advertising specialty manufacturing business. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of it? - -Mr. RUBY. Earl Products Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a corporation? - -Mr. RUBY. No; just a company. - -Mr. HUBERT. A trade name? - -Mr. RUBY. A trade name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack in that company? - -Mr. RUBY. He was. He was in the company for about 2 years, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was during what years? - -Mr. RUBY. 1946 and 1947. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did he come to leave it? - -Mr. RUBY. We had a little difference as to the policies of the company -and Earl and I more or less agreed on the way it should be run and Jack -had other ideas, and, of course, when we couldn’t agree, we bought him -out. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you pay him? - -Mr. RUBY. I believe it was about $14,000. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, was that paid in cash? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; it was cash. - -Mr. HUBERT. After you bought him out and you paid him in cash, did he -come to Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say he came almost immediately? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; in fact I think he may have made some trips here before -we sold out, before he sold out to us—I’m not sure about that, but it -seems like he had come down here to visit my sister Eva—Eva L. Grant. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether or not when he -got here he had approximately $14,000 in cash, that is to say, when he -came to Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. Well—— - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way—you knew he had the $14,000—you -don’t know whether he had any debts or anything that would have -consumed that $14,000, is that what you are saying? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you move to Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. In 1955—I moved here in July 1955. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what was the occasion for your coming here? - -Mr. RUBY. I sold out to my brother Earl in March of 1955 and at that -time my youngest boy, Brion, had a little asthma difficulty and my -sister Eva, who was residing in Chicago at the time, suggested that -I come to Dallas and look into the building of homes in Dallas. She -had some friends who were in the business of building homes, and I -did build one residence in Oak Cliff, that is part of Dallas, in -association with this lady friend of hers, and subsequently this woman -I built the home with, she liked the home so well she bought it from -me and I realized at the time that these building tradesmen here were -kind of hard to get along with. In other words, they—some of them would -drink on the job and material would be missing from the job and I -thought I would rather get into something else that I was more familiar -with. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it, then, after you sold your -interest to Earl, you made the decision to move to Dallas on a -permanent basis? - -Mr. RUBY. I came down here for a visit first. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you decide to make this your home—to make Dallas -your home? - -Mr. RUBY. After I sold out the company to Earl in March, I came down -here in April. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you considered to be your permanent move to -Dallas—in April? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I came down here for a visit and I decided I liked -Dallas very much and I went back up north and, of course, at that time -I was in the business of building this home and I told my wife—I called -her on the phone and told her that we are going to move to Dallas -and I went up there in the latter part of June and helped pack our -furnishings and belongings and had them moved down here by truck. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had already finished building the home here you were -talking about? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I was in the process of building it. - -Mr. HUBERT. After you moved down here and that was in the summer of -1955, as I understand you, and after you had finished this building -venture which you decided you didn’t want to continue in, what business -did you go into by way of making a living? - -Mr. RUBY. I went into—it was also the advertising specialty -business—then with two fellows who were at that time engaged in it. -They had a company under the trade name of Atlas American Specialties -Co., I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the two men you are speaking of? - -Mr. RUBY. One was Sam Lasser (spelling) L-a-s-s-e-r, and the other -fellow was named Norman Weisbrod. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have covered those transactions in your -statements. - -Mr. RUBY. I believe I have—I don’t think they asked me those questions, -although I did mention that they were friends of Jack’s. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you actually were business partners with them? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that last? - -Mr. RUBY. That lasted until June 1956. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was the occasion of breaking that up, or what -happened? - -Mr. RUBY. We manufactured a product that wasn’t engineered or designed -properly and we had a lot of rejects and we were having to pay freight -both ways and—— - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the product? - -Mr. RUBY. It was this plastic spinner that you see on these wires in -front of service stations and used car lots and the weather—when they -are spinning around would force them to crack in half and they would -fall on the cars and maybe damage them and they weren’t satisfied with -them and we found out later that this man who made our mould for us -didn’t design it properly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where are Lasser and Weisbrod now, do you know? - -Mr. RUBY. They are partners in the wholesale distributing business of -sunglasses. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what city? - -Mr. RUBY. In Dallas—I believe the name is Mode (spelling) M-o-d-e, -Imports. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have occasion to see those people frequently? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I haven’t seen those people in maybe—maybe for about 3 -years. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were friends of Jack’s? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack get you interested in this venture with these two -men? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he introduced me to them and he did say that they had a -very good business and that they were hard working fellows. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you invest any money with them? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much? - -Mr. RUBY. $3,500. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you dissolved, did they buy you out? - -Mr. RUBY. No: the whole company was dissolved. We just liquidated it. -We paid all of our debts. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any part of the investment returned to you? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you lost the $3,500 in that venture? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. After that was completed, what did you do? - -Mr. RUBY. In the latter part of 1956, I investigated this coin-operated -washateria business and I succeeded in purchasing and in installing a -new coin-operated washateria at 3608 Oak Lawn in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of it? - -Mr. RUBY. It was Speedy Wash, I believe it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was just a trade name? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you borrowed some money from some banks to do that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I borrowed some money from some banks. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other ventures since that, or is that -still in existence? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I lost my lease—my lease was up and Ward’s Drug Store -next door somehow managed to get the lease on the store and, of course, -I had to vacate and discontinue that place, but while I had that -place of business I purchased the Bonnie Washateria at 2002 East 11th -Street in Dallas and I also purchased another washateria at 2524 North -Fitzhugh in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you still operate those? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I sold both of those. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long ago? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, this one at 2425 North Fitzhugh was the Ruby Washateria -and I sold that 2 years ago last March—let me see—that would be 1962, -wouldn’t it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. In March 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the last one you sold? - -Mr. RUBY. No; that was the Ruby Washateria. Then, the Bonnie -Washateria, which was at 2002 East 11th Street, I sold just last -December, I believe it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell that to? - -Mr. RUBY. To a Mr. George Cernorsky. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of your selling it? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I had a lot of competition—there was a new washateria -opened up there on the street from me about a block away next to a -supermarket and I was sort of in an isolated corner myself and also -I was at that time engaged in extensive repair work and I tried to go -more into the repair of washing machines and I thought it was taking a -lot of my time and I wasn’t making any money there and in fact I was -losing money, and I thought—why have something like that on your hands -and I would rather devote my time to repair work. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what you have done? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what you are doing now? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; but I also since that time—I also purchased a little -manufacturing business in Coppell, Tex., which of all days, I purchased -it on November 20, 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of business is that? - -Mr. RUBY. It was a little stuffed animal business and the name of the -company was the Autographic Mascots that they use around these colleges -and universities and high schools—all of these schools have little -mascots, you know, and the purpose was to have these kids—these various -classes—have their classmates autograph them as sort of a remembrance -or souvenir of their school days. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you still operating that? - -Mr. RUBY. No; we sold that—we just sold that recently—April the 15th -this party took over complete possession of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell it to? - -Mr. RUBY. To Mrs. M. Frances Cole, I believe her name is. - -Mr. HUBERT. C-o-l-e (spelling)? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is she operating it now? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you loaned some money to Jack in -1955; is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much and under what circumstances? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he said he was having difficulty in paying his Federal -excise taxes and I let him have $1,000, and then sometime later—that -was probably in May or June of 1955 when I let him have the $1,000, -and then sometime later—that was probably May or June when I let him -have the $1,000 and later that summer, it may have been in July or -August, I let him have $4,500, and he had some more difficulty with the -Government on his Federal excise tax and he had to pay off these taxes -or they would have padlocked his club—it was the Vegas Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you made these loans to Jack, did you receive any -evidence of the loan, such as a note? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; I had him make out a bill of sale to me for the -Vegas Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that recorded in any way? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I think I still have it at home—I think I still have it -at home. I don’t remember whether it was recorded or not—the attorney -made it out. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you had to file a legal proceeding -against Jack in order to recover your money? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right. - -Mr. HUBERT. A judgment for it? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a contested suit—did you file suit against him? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. This bill of sale, was that sort of a security device or -actual transaction of sale? - -Mr. RUBY. It was an actual transaction of sale and also a security. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you did—you sued on the note, I assume, that was -involved; is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. No; we sued that I was the legal owner of the business and -that he told me he would—in December he said he would purchase the club -from me. He wasn’t satisfied with me as a partner and he said he was -going to buy me out, but he failed to meet his financial promises and -so I kept calling him and so I wasn’t getting any satisfaction and I -hired an attorney. Mr. Harold I. Berman. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then he filed suit on your behalf? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he obtained a judgment? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a contested suit or did it go by default? - -Mr. RUBY. It was contested—he had his attorney there, Mr. Klepak. - -Mr. HUBERT. He actually went to trial? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you won the case? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the result of the judgment was that you were declared -to be the owner of the Vegas; is that it? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, that Jack should—he agreed to pay me the amount of -money he owed me, which at that time amounted to about $4,500. He had -paid me some money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that after you obtained the judgment that he agreed to -pay you? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, it was during the judgment—that’s the way we settled it -in court. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the case was compromised, was it? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the compromise was that he agreed to pay you—what sum -of money? - -Mr. RUBY. $4,500—that was the balance that he owed me at the time—at -that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then didn’t he then execute a note to you or was that just -simply part of the judgment? - -Mr. RUBY. That was part of the judgment and we have a legal document -showing that the judgment was entered and agreed upon and I think was -signed by the judge, and I have that document at home. It’s still on -file in the records building—it has never been removed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Has the $4,500 been paid off? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much is yet due upon it? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, about $1,300 or so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it to be paid off in installments or any period of time -or just what was the arrangement or compromise made? - -Mr. RUBY. I believe he gave me a thousand dollars in the Court that -day and they had to take a hundred dollars off for his attorney—his -attorney wanted a hundred dollars from that thousand dollars, and so I -only received $900 and the rest was, I believe, to be paid off in $200 -monthly installments. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that in any case there now remains a balance of $1,300 -due on that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever live in Youngstown, Ohio? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. During what period? - -Mr. RUBY. From 1939 to 1941. I registered there for the draft. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation there? - -Mr. RUBY. I was what they call a siding applicator—you know—these -siding manufacturers like Johns-Manville and Ruberoid and these various -other siding manufacturers. I worked for a construction company and -we secured contracts and I was one of their—what they call—shingle -applicator. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the company? Do you recall? - -Mr. RUBY. The National Improvement Company. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with it only? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was for a period of 2 years? - -Mr. RUBY. I think it was 3 years—1939, inclusive—1939 to 1941. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you went into the draft? - -Mr. RUBY. And then I worked in Chicago for a few months and then I went -and enlisted in the Navy in February 1942, and they turned me down -because of my eyes, and I went to the draft board and tried to find out -how soon my number was coming up and they took my name and address and -it was within the next few days that they let me know that they wanted -me to come down for an examination. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ralph Paul? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; very well. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, practically since I have been in Dallas—since 1955, I -would say. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him? - -Mr. RUBY. Through Jack at the Vegas Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever in partnerships with him yourself? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir—I forgot to mention that. I just recall that now. We -were in an ice cream business venture. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that; do you know? - -Mr. RUBY. I think it was the Rainbow Ice Cream Palace. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located? - -Mr. RUBY. In Wynnewood Shopping Center. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened to that venture? - -Mr. RUBY. It just wasn’t successful. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did it last? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, let’s see—about 4 months I believe—March, April, May, -and June—I think it only lasted 4 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other business arrangements or enterprises -with Paul? - -Mr. RUBY. No—but I was in another business with a fellow named Robert -Eisman. - -Mr. HUBERT. I-s-m-a-n [spelling]? - -Mr. RUBY. No—[spelling] E-i-s-m-a-n. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was that business? - -Mr. RUBY. Washateria—we were partners in a coin-operated -business—washateria at the time—two of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of this? - -Mr. RUBY. One was the—what was the name on it—it was on 1713 South -Ervay Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was different from the other two you have mentioned -here? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that arrangement last? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, about 3 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was it dissolved? - -Mr. RUBY. This is 1964—that must have been in March 1960, or 1961. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is this man Eisman still in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he’s living in Fort Worth at the present time—he is in -the washateria—not washateria, but coin-operated washing machines at -the present time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to dissolve that arrangement with Mr. -Eisman? - -Mr. RUBY. We had an awful lot of vandalism there in that neighborhood. -They cut down water hoses and they would break into the machines and -there was just too much vandalism to be profitable. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been charged or convicted of any felonies? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What has been your relationship with Jack since you came to -live in Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. How do you mean that? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, as brothers—do you visit socially often—you have told -us about some of the financial matters between you and I was wondering -what was the personal relationship between you? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, outside of that difference we had about the club, he -used to come over and visit us for the Jewish holidays and sometimes we -would invite him over for an evening to dinner. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the average, how often did you see him a year, for -instance? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I would see him, oh, maybe anywhere from three to six -times a year. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have other contacts with him by phone or otherwise? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; we talked to him on the phone on different occasions. -There was nothing important—I mean—just about maybe something about his -family or how he was doing or inquire about the children. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about your relationship with his sister, Mrs. Eva -Grant? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I have seen her more often and we are off and on like -brothers and sisters and we argue at different times and maybe in a -week or so we’ll forget about it and make up. She has her own views on -things. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to see Jack during the period -September 25 through November 24, 1963? - -Mr. RUBY. September—you say? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes—September 25, yes, I believe I did. I may have seen him -at the club one night and then on one occasion, I remember it was the -week of Halloween, because the man I was working for went out of town -and Jack called me—he called me—I don’t know whether he called me or -my wife called me, and wanted me to go to Fort Worth with him to look -at this twistboard factory which he was handling as a distributor at -that time and I wasn’t too anxious to go, but he insisted and he said -maybe if that distributing business went all right, he would like me to -become interested in that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go with him then? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did. I had some work but I thought I could make it up -either later in the day or the following day—just repairing washing -machines. I was working for a man that had three washaterias at the -time and I took a ride with him to Fort Worth to see this manufacturing -plant. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you enter into the venture with Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know to what extent he did? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he told me that he was a distributor for these boards and -he was thinking maybe of going into the manufacture of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did he tell you that? - -Mr. RUBY. At that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether your brother Earl had any interest in -it? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know to this moment whether he does? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jack never mentioned that Earl might be interested? - -Mr. RUBY. No—no; he never mentioned one way or the other whether Earl -would be interested. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you had any contact whatsoever with -Jack during the periods, say, from the 16th of November through the -24th of November—that would be about the week before the President died -until Oswald was shot? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think he called me on the phone a few times and wanted -me to go visit my sister Eva in the hospital. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir; I didn’t. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you remember any other contacts between you and -Jack other than the one you just mentioned concerning visiting your -sister in the hospital? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he may have called me twice on the phone—I didn’t -see him during that period. The last time I saw him was the week of -Halloween—it was on a Wednesday, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, then, the last time you saw him was before -Oswald was shot? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was approximately a month or 4 weeks before Oswald was -shot? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right; before. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you recall at least one telephone conversation which -you have just made reference to about visiting your sister in the -hospital? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes—he was very upset about me not going. I promised him -I would go and then I happened to be very busy working for this -washateria owner and I thought it was more important I stay at my job -and maybe go at night, but he became very upset about me not going and -sort of became abusive. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was all over the phone? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he contact you after the President was shot? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir—no, he didn’t contact me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did your sister do so? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between November 22d and the time Oswald -was shot, you had no communication of any sort whatsoever with either -your sister, Eva Grant, or your brother, Jack Ruby; is that right? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of his reaction to the President’s death -during the period November 22 through November 24? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir; I had no idea. I was busy at the time—I was working -for this man, Mr. Dean, and I also was doing repair work at night and I -was working pretty late at night and I would get home late and get up -early in the morning and had to be at the job at 8 and so my days and -nights were fully occupied at that time and previous to that, too. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have stated in one of these statements that Mr. -Paul said he was going to give you 50 percent of the stock of the S & R -Corp.; did he say why he was going to do that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; that was after Judge Sterrett denied an application -for a new license and he wanted to turn his 50 percent over to me so -that I should have the obligations of the club, which I wasn’t in favor -of because I didn’t have the financial backing to take it over. I have -never received that 50 percent. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why did he want to give it to you? - -Mr. RUBY. So that he wouldn’t have to assume any financial -responsibilities incurred by the corporation. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you refused it? - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t refuse him at the time, but I didn’t agree one way -or the other, but I suggested my sister Eva take over the 50 percent of -the corporation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were any shares of stock ever delivered to you? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir; not any shares. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burleson, do you have any questions you would like to -ask of Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. BURLESON. Yes. First, Sam, have you, since this incident occurred -back on November 24, 1963, had an occasion to have any threats on your -life, your well-being, your future or that of your children, or your -family? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, there was one man that called and said he was a friend -of Jack’s and he wanted to come over and he said that he was from up -North—I believe he was from Minnesota and he had come down here to look -for a job—he wanted to get a job and he was a friend of Jack’s and it -didn’t sound sensible or logical and he had talked to my wife, and we -didn’t give him our address or any other information and he said he -wanted to talk to Jack. - -Mr. BURLESON. But you have had no direct threats? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was this occurrence? - -Mr. RUBY. The conversation—well, my wife would know more about that, I -believe, since she talked to him—I believe it was in December. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard any more from this individual? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, you have been visiting Jack recently, have you not, -in jail? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what you found Jack’s condition to be since -the verdict and at the present time? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, to be frank with you, I always thought there was -something odd about Jack, but I thought he was just the type of a -person that’s hard to get along with and that was before—years ago—but -since I have been visiting him lately, his mental condition has -deteriorated very rapidly. He keeps saying that people are being killed -in the streets and he hears screams in the building of people being -slaughtered. - -Mr. BURLESON. Are these just people or are these Jewish people? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he says, “People,” and then he says “Jewish people” and -he always imagines that Earl is killed and his children’s bodies are -being dismembered. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does he say anything about Eva? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he tells me to leave and sell my home and get out of -Dallas. He says that the police hate him here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does he tell you to do anything as far as self-destruction -is concerned? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he has done that quite a few times. He says he is going -to take his life and I’ve tried to talk him out of it, and tell him -everything will be all right. - -Mr. HUBERT. He said he was going to take his own life? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I have never heard him talk like that before. - -Mr. BURLESON. Does he appear to be normal to you? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he has that—I don’t know how to describe his look, but -he has sort of a look of a person that is being tortured or tormented -by something and I don’t know what you would call it, but it is sort -of a—he has that look in his face of not seeing you, like he is -looking—staring at you but not seeing you. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does he recognize you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; he does. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see him? - -Mr. RUBY. Last Sunday. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many times since his conviction have you seen him prior -to last Sunday? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I have seen him at least once a week. - -Mr. HUBERT. And this condition that you have described that he has, did -it exist right after the conviction or was it a progressive matter? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, it has been progressive and during the course of the -bond hearing and the change of venue and the jurors and the trial -itself—he didn’t seem to communicate with me very much. He didn’t have -anything to say to me, so to speak, like he didn’t have all of his -faculties, you might say. - -Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me ask you—do you know anything about the -financial situation of the so-called defense fund—the money that has -come in for the defense of Jack Ruby, have you had anything to do with -it yourself? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I had nothing to do with it, but I understand they sold a -story. Do you want to know about that? - -Mr. BURLESON. Well, we know about that. That’s the newspaper story that -this Woodfield fellow bought? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. BURLESON. Have you personally received any money from any source -from persons who have contributed it to you to use in the defense fund? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have not received even any money in the mail; is that -right? - -Mr. RUBY. Not one penny. - -Mr. BURLESON. And no one has given you any to be utilized for the -defense? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. BURLESON. Have you contributed any of your own, other than the -expense that you have been out personally during the trial and things -of that nature, have you contributed any? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. BURLESON. And have you heard from any members of the family who are -maybe more aware of it than you are that many large sums have come in, -other than this one for the sale of the news story? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes: I heard that one come in from one of Jack’s friends in -Chicago. - -Mr. BURLESON. Is that the $250? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was the friend, do you know? - -Mr. RUBY. Kelman, I think his name is Joe Kelman. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that man? - -Mr. RUBY. Not personally; I met his brother years ago. His brother was -a personal friend of Jack’s, Morris Kelman, and they are, I believe, in -the auto windshield glass manufacturing business in Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, I believe there was another check of some sum from -Walter Winchell? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how much that was? - -Mr. RUBY. My sister Eva said it was for $100. - -Mr. BURLESON. You were reported as saying to some news media that there -was several thousand dollars? - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t say that. I said it was very generous—I didn’t give -any amount. I didn’t even say whether it was a dollar or what amount it -was. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you know of any other sums of money that may have come -in, of any substantial sum? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t. - -Mr. BURLESON. That’s all I have. I need to go off the record for -a moment. I need to talk to Mr. Ruby on a matter that we had not -completely discussed. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Would you like to leave the room for your -conference? - -Mr. BURLESON. Yes; please. - -(At this point counsel Burleson and the witness, Sam Ruby, left the -conference room for approximately 10 minutes, returned thereto, and the -proceedings of Mr. Ruby’s deposition continued as follows.) - -Mr. BURLESON. I would like to go back on the record and ask you, Mr. -Ruby, is there anything you would like to bring out—anything that you -would like to tell Mr. Hubert here on any version of the case, either -something we have already talked about, to amplify, explain that, or -either something new—some new area that you feel like that he would be -interested in? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know, except that I talked to some of the -people from the Liquor Commission, the Texas State Liquor Commission, -and they think that he may have felt sorry for the Tippit family as -well as the Kennedy family, and he always took it personally when -a police officer was killed. I mean, he made it his business to -contribute something financially when an officer was killed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they are up at the Liquor Commission in Oak Cliff—I -don’t think I know that just now. - -Mr. BURLESON. That would be the Liquor Control Board—some of the -personnel there? - -Mr. RUBY. I believe that’s it. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you know their names? - -Mr. RUBY. I believe one was Johnny Cranks. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was this told to you? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they called me up there to inquire whether I was a -member of the corporation. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then they volunteered their opinion as to what his -motivation was? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that was what they thought and I talked to Jack a few -times at the county jail and he says he felt very sorry for the Kennedy -family. - -Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack ever tell you why he shot Oswald? - -Mr. RUBY. No; he never mentioned his name to me. He never mentioned his -name. - -Mr. BURLESON. You were in the service? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BURLESON. I know one of Jack’s brothers was in the intelligence? - -Mr. RUBY. I was in the Army intelligence. - -Mr. BURLESON. You were in the Army intelligence—for how long? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, we were stationed at Langley Field in 1942 and 1943 -and a Captain Southern swore me in as an agent, to keep an eye on -Communists and Nazi saboteurs and to see whether anybody was leaving -subversive literature around for the boys to read, and if I did see -anybody acting suspicious to write a letter into a certain box number -in Newport News, Va., which was about 20 miles away from Langley Field, -and have a general theme, in fact, he says he checked up on my family -history and all of the members of the family, and to write just like I -am writing to my family, in fact he mentioned my brother Jack and write -a letter like you are writing, “Dear Brother Jack: Last night we went -to town and we had a few beers and we went to a movie and had a few -dances and Pvt. John Smith has been acting kind of queer lately,” and -he said somewhere in the letter mention that and they would take care -of it from then on, and I had to sign my name Johnny Newman. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the captain’s first name; do you recall? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall his first name, but his name was Southern. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell it? - -Mr. RUBY. S-o-u-t-h-e-r-n [spelling]. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he was part of what organization? - -Mr. RUBY. The Army Air Force—it was the Third Army Air Force based at -Langley Field, Va. - -Mr. HUBERT. But what was the specific organization in which he was in? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, our outfit was called the Tenth Tow Target. They -used to tow targets and train pilots at the same time for these -anti-aircraft guns, to fire these guns behind the planes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you have anything else you want to bring out on any -subject or matter of any nature that you think either the Commission or -Mr. Hubert would be interested in? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, all I know is that Jack had a very deep feeling about -this anti-Semitism in this country and, of course, with the massacre -of the 6 million Jews in Germany, and he had that on his mind quite -a bit, and he was the most religious of the boys in the family. The -brothers went to say prayers for my dad after he passed away for a -full year, which is customary, of course, we went for a few months—the -other brothers, but Jack is the one that went for a full year, and he -observed going to the synagogue more regularly than the other brothers -did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he, in fact, go to the synagogue regularly, do you know? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, all I can say is that he went more regularly than the -other brothers. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he used to call from there or when he would be talking, -he would say he was going to the synagogue and he was coming from -there, and in the conversation he would say he talked to the rabbi and -he would call and say he was going there and we would invite him over -for dinner or he would go early in the morning and we would invite him -over for a late breakfast. - -Mr. BURLESON. Do you think of anything else you want to develop or -bring out? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, there has never been, Mr. Ruby, any -interview between you and me other than what took place in this room -since this deposition began, is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that all that has ever passed between you and me has -been recorded in this room—right? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I’m glad to see you, Mr. Ruby, and I’m -glad you came down. - -Mr. RUBY. Thank you. - -Mr. BURLESON. Thank you, Mr. Ruby, and I will see you outside in just a -second. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JACK L. RUBY - -The testimony of Jack L. Ruby was taken at 11 a.m., on July 18, -1964, at the Dallas County Jail, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, -assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Present were: Bell P. -Herndon and W. James Wood, special agents of the FBI; Clayton Fowler -and Joe H. Tonahill, counsel for Jack Ruby; William F. Alexander, -assistant district attorney for Dallas County, Tex.; Allan L. Sweatt, -chief criminal deputy for Dallas County, Tex.; E. L. Holman, chief -jailer; and Dr. William Robert Beavers, observer. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that present at this time are Mr. -Clayton Fowler, chief counsel for Jack Ruby; Mr. Joe H. Tonahill, -cocounsel for Jack Ruby; Mr. William F. Alexander, assistant district -attorney for Dallas County, Tex.; Mr. Allan L. Sweatt, chief criminal -deputy and polygraph operator for Dallas County, Tex.; Mr. Bell P. -Herndon, the polygraph operator and special agent of the Federal Bureau -of Investigation; Mr. W. James Wood, special agent of the Federal -Bureau of Investigation; Odell Oliver, court reporter; and Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. - -We have discussed preliminarily the procedure to be followed on the -polygraph examination, where those currently present may remain -while the polygraph operators, Mr. Herndon and Mr. Wood, explain -the questions to Mr. Ruby, and then everyone would leave except the -operators, Messrs. Herndon and Wood, the court reporter and I, and the -question now subject to being resolved is the issue of whether anyone -will be present from the sheriff’s office. - -As you know, the President’s Commission is trying to bring its work to -a close and the Chief Justice promised a polygraph test and that was -6 weeks ago tomorrow. There have been a lot of things we have had to -work out, and I think it all ought to be on the record. I would want to -give everyone an opportunity to put any request right on the record in -any way you want; and, of course, I think that all your objections and -comments about this proceeding should go on the record. After you have -so stated, I will state responsively the Commission’s position on these -proceedings. - -I will say further that there is no closed mind on these issues and -that they will have to be weighed and evaluated by the members of the -Commission themselves. - -Mr. FOWLER. Let me first suggest then—why don’t I discuss this with -Jack? - -Mr. SPECTER. That’s fine. - -Mr. FOWLER. And then Jack may say whether he wants to go ahead with -this and how I have advised him, and that he has on numerous occasions -requested it, and I will tell him that the Chief Justice promised to -give it to him and they are here ready to do it, which I am going to -tell him, and if he insists on it, I can’t and won’t try to hold him -back. - -Mr. TONAHILL. That’s a good suggestion. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine; and if he has changed his mind for any reason, I -will just want to have it on the record, and that will conclude the -issue, so far as the Commission is concerned. - -Mr. FOWLER. Let’s see—he’s on what floor? - -Mr. TONAHILL. 6-M. - -Mr. FOWLER. Let me step down and chat with him for just a few minutes. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Do you want me to go with you? - -Mr. FOWLER. I may need you later. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Fowler left the room, and -in approximately 5 minutes thereafter, returned to the room from his -conference with Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. FOWLER. He says he’s going to take this test regardless of his -lawyers, and he says, “By God, I’m going to take the test.” - -Mr. TONAHILL. Well, you know the law is in his favor and that he is -presumed to be sane, and there can’t be anybody speak for him but -himself. - -Mr. FOWLER. I have advised him, and I have read this letter to him, and -I have explained all of this to him when I talked to him. - -Mr. TONAHILL. If he wouldn’t take it now—— - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, I won’t want to go back there then. - -Mr. TONAHILL. If he ever gets his hands on you, they’ll let him have it. - -Mr. SPECTER (addressing the court reporter). I hope you have had a -chance to put these observations on the record. - -Mr. FOWLER. I also want this further put into the record as to how many -requests, in addition to this one, that were made for this test. - -Mr. SPECTER. We would be willing to accede to that request, and as -you know, we have been trying to set this up for a long while. The -circumstances of the Commission’s timetable require us to proceed -today; that is, either proceed or find out from Mr. Ruby that we would -not ever proceed along this line. I have requested Sheriff Decker to -have a physician standing by so that he may protect, to the fullest -extent possible, Mr. Ruby’s physical condition if he needs medical -attention. As to your first request for Dr. Tanay of Detroit to be -present, the Commission would permit that. But since Dr. Tanay is not -now present, there is no way to implement that. We have no objection to -having any other doctor here who can be present here today. - -With respect to request No. 2 made during our preliminary discussion, -that the results of the tests be held confidential, the Commission has -heretofore on other questions refused to make any advance commitment -because of the nature of its responsibility to make the final -decision on disclosing or not disclosing what it concludes is in the -public interest. Or stated differently, the Commission just won’t be -committed. The results of this examination will not be disclosed to -anyone until the Commission itself has reviewed the results and makes a -decision, bearing many factors in mind, including your request, to have -the information remain confidential. - -Mr. FOWLER. All right; now in the past, of course we feel this—that -as to the other information that we assumed would be confidential and -would not be released to the press, this of course has been done, and -we strenuously request that this matter not be released to the press. - -(At this point Sheriff Decker entered the room.) - -Mr. DECKER (addressing Mr. Fowler). Jim Kerr caught you making a -50-yard dash and they are circling around downstairs and Jim Kerr is -just going in circles wanting to know what Clayton Fowler is doing up -in the jail. - -(At this point Sheriff Decker left the room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, as to your last statement, I don’t know what -you are referring to specifically, and without taking it up in terms -of specific items, I couldn’t comment about it, and I don’t know that -it would be really useful to go into it at this time. The material -given to the Commission, where the Commission says it will be kept -confidential, to the best of my knowledge, has always been honored. -There are in these proceedings many chains and it is not possible in -some cases to pinpoint responsibility, but the Chief Justice and the -Commission have honored every commitment they have made heretofore. -If they feel in their judgment—of course they have the paramount -responsibility for the entire investigation—that the results of this -proceeding ought to be kept secret, you may be assured that it will be -implemented to the fullest extent possible. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, our request is that this matter be held -strictly confidential because it is being given at the request of the -Commission and for the benefit of the Commission, and we feel that -the Commission and only the Commission should have this information, -and before any of it is released for public consumption or private -consumption, No. 1, the sheriff’s office, the district attorney’s -office, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or any other agency of the -Government outside the Warren Commission—that we be told that this is -going to be done. - -Mr. SPECTER. That request, I think, can be honored in that you will -be notified in advance of any publication, that the Commission will -make a publication if in fact it ultimately decides to make such a -publication. Now, there is one facet of this matter which is difficult -to control and that is the fact itself that a polygraph examination -is being administered. I do not know at this time what circulation -has been given to this fact, if any, by any of the people who are -involved, since it has touched many bases among many parties in this -proceeding. That fact itself may have already been disclosed, but with -respect to the results of this examination, I propose to keep those -within the custody of the Commission through the Federal Bureau of -Investigation and its operators, who are conducting this test, and -their report will be made available only to the Commission until the -Commission decides whether it should be made public. - -Mr. FOWLER. All right. Now then, I would like for this record to also -show that this letter from Mr. Gordon Shanklin has been handed to -you and that you are fully appraised of what this letter contains, -and I want the record to further show that on this date (1:05 p.m.), -not later than 10 minutes ago, I talked with Jack Ruby. I read the -letter to him. I explained it to him to the best of my ability. I -also advised him that the family legal advisor, Mr. Sol Dann, an -attorney of Detroit, had made these requests, and that following these -requests that I as Jack Ruby’s attorney advised him not to take the -test, and that if he did so he would be doing it against the advice -of his attorney, against the advice of his family advisor’s attorney, -and against the advice of the family, and that notwithstanding this, -Jack said that he had requested this before either Mr. Sol Dann or -myself came into this case as attorneys, and that Chief Justice Warren -had promised that he would give him this test, and that regardless -of what Mr. Dann’s wishes would be, together with his entire family -and together with his attorneys of record, that he insisted on this -test, but that a further proceeding of it would be against the advice -of his lawyers, and at this time we do respectfully request that the -Commission not disclose any of the questions that will be submitted -to Jack Ruby to any other person other than the operators, the -investigator for the Warren Commission, and his attorneys present, Mr. -Joe Tonahill and Clayton Fowler; and that more specifically that these -questions not be given to anyone connected with the Dallas Sheriff’s -Office, the Dallas Agency of the Bureau of Investigation, the Dallas -District Attorney’s Office, and more specifically, Mr. Bill Alexander, -who is present in the room at this time and representing the district -attorney’s office, and Mr. Allan Sweatt, who is present in the room and -representing the Dallas Sheriff’s Office. Anything else, Joe? - -Mr. TONAHILL. I might go back on a little background whenever you -finish. - -Mr. FOWLER. I wish you would. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the notation for the record concerning -the contents of the letter from Mr. Gordon Shanklin, special agent in -charge of the FBI office here in Dallas, that identical information has -been conveyed through the Federal Bureau of Investigation to Mr. J. -Lee Rankin, general counsel of the Commission. Having considered those -requests and those factors, the general counsel has instructed me to -proceed to have this polygraph taken today if Mr. Jack Ruby wants to -have this polygraph taken in accordance with his prior request to the -Commission on June 7, 1964, and the commitment given by the Commission -through the Chief Justice that such a polygraph examination would -be given. With respect to the request that none of the questions be -made available to anybody from the Dallas Police Department or the -Dallas District Attorney’s Office or the Dallas Sheriff’s Office, -the Commission’s position on that is that if the questions are to be -submitted in advance to the counsel for the defendant, that there is -equal standing on the part of the State to have similar treatment. - -Previously, I outlined for you the procedure that we proposed to adopt -during the course of this polygraph examination, to wit; having the -people present in the room who are here at the present time, which -includes Mr. Clayton Fowler and Mr. Joe Tonahill, representing Mr. -Ruby; Mr. William F. Alexander, representing the Dallas District -Attorney’s office; Mr. Allan L. Sweatt, chief criminal deputy of the -Dallas Sheriff’s office; Mr. Bell P. Herndon, special agent of the -Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Mr. W. James Wood, special agent -of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, who are going to administer the -polygraph examination. - -The questions to be asked of Mr. Ruby at the time of administration -of the examination would be set forth to Mr. Ruby so that he would -understand them fully; and with the other people present, it would be -known what questions were going to be asked of Mr. Ruby in advance of -the actual asking. - -Then, it was the Commission’s view that everybody should leave the room -except for the two special agents of the FBI who would be administering -the test, the court reporter and me, so that the minimum number of -people would be present. - -I have conveyed that request to Sheriff Decker and he has insisted that -a member of his staff be present as custodian of the body of Jack Ruby, -since he has that responsibility. It is not yet determined who that -will be, but the Commission proposes to proceed on the administration -of the polygraph test under those circumstances, with the only open -question being the identity, if anyone, of the representative of the -sheriff who has charge of the custody of the body of the defendant here -or Jack Ruby, since he is not a defendant in this proceeding, actually. - -Mr. TONAHILL. I should like to say as one of Jack Ruby’s defense -counsel along with Chief Defense Counsel Clayton Fowler, that when I -entered the defense of Jack Ruby back in December of 1963, with Mr. -Belli, at that time we insisted before undertaking his defense that he -agree to a polygraph test and truth serum test or any other scientific -test that would reflect whether or not there was a connection between -him and Lee Harvey Oswald or in any respect a conspiracy. He agreed and -insisted at that time that there was no such conspiracy. He did not -know Lee Harvey Oswald and there was no connection between them and -that he would undertake any type of a scientific test that we could -have made available for him. Jack Ruby has insisted on those tests ever -since. - -We have from time to time proposed to the FBI through Mr. Gordon -Shanklin and others, that a lie detector test be given Mr. Ruby. We -have filed motions to obtain scientific tests. Mr. Ruby has insisted on -these tests very strenuously and has felt that I have stood in the way -of him obtaining them. - -I was present during the Warren Commission deposition of Jack Ruby -along with Mr. Jim Bowie of the district attorney’s office some 6 weeks -ago when Chief Justice Earl Warren on numerous occasions responded to -Jack Ruby that he had it in his power to make available to him some day -in the future a polygraph test and would do so at Mr. Ruby’s request. - -Now it has come down that Chief Justice Earl Warren and the Warren -Commission are now in the process of keeping faith with their promise -to Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. Fowler and I have talked with the various psychiatrists, Drs. -Tanay, West, and Beavers, each of whom feels that because Jack Ruby is -of unsound mind and mentally ill, this polygraph test is a mistake and -would produce nothing by way of an accurate result of deception, truth, -or conclusiveness in any regard and feel that it should not be made. - -As cocounsel with Mr. Fowler. I yield to his position here and -concur with him, but as a personal individual, very close and very -knowledgeable of the entire history of this polygraph demand on -the part of Ruby, it is my personal view that even though he is of -unsound mind, does not know right from wrong, is mentally ill, and his -psychiatrists are opposed to it, unless he is given the polygraph test -there will never be any satisfaction in any respect. His condition -might even grow worse without it, and in the interest of satisfying -everyone concerned, the State, the Nation, and the world—that in -all probability if this polygraph test is not given, there will be -left hanging in the clouds certain doubts as to whether there was a -conspiracy between Ruby and others or Oswald, or whether they knew each -other, despite the fact that his mental condition may be such that it -will not demonstrate any effective results. - -Nevertheless my personal view is that it might be well to go forward -with it, and certainly if all appellate efforts are exhausted on behalf -of Jack Ruby and his case is affirmed all the way up, which I feel that -it won’t be; if his family and Jack Ruby should refuse to undergo a -polygraph test, certainly the Board of Pardons and Parole may look with -disfavor upon that fact and infer possible premeditation on his part in -the shooting of Oswald or a possible conspiracy and might rule against -him in granting clemency, in the event it ever reached that stage. And, -irrespective of whether an effective polygraph test can be run of this -man at this time in his present mental state or not, I personally feel -that an effort should be made to do it. - -Mr. SPECTER. For the record I want to add that requests have been -received by the Commission, requests made on behalf of Mr. Ruby, to -have a polygraph test, prior to the time the Commission heard his -testimony on June 7 of this year, and that the Commission has not -initiated any effort whatsoever to have a polygraph test taken but is -only conducting these proceedings today to make available to Mr. Ruby -this examination if he wishes to have it at this time, in accordance -with the promise made by the Commission through the Chief Justice on -June 7. - -I want to be emphatic and clear on this question that we do not now -and have never asked for or insisted on a polygraph examination. If -Mr. Ruby does not want to have such an examination taken, that is -acceptable to the President’s Commission on the Assassination. As we -discussed informally before we started a record proceeding, in this -event we are willing to have anything put on the record that Mr. Fowler -or Mr. Tonahill wish to place on the record as his attorneys; and of -course, we do not wish to, have not, and will not interfere in any way -with your representation of Mr. Ruby, as his counsel, so that he may -take your advice and proceed in accordance with your advice. - -If you wish to put on the record any medical evidence, I am authorized -to have that done here today or at a later date. Mr. Tonahill and I -discussed this matter by telephone last Wednesday and I indicated to -him at that time that the Commission was willing to have such evidence -placed on the record as an aid to their evaluation of whether to place -any credence in the tests which are going to be administered. - -It has been somewhat uncertain as to whether this proceeding would -go forward today, so that counsel for Mr. Ruby may wish to provide -supplemental data by way of testimony, letter, affidavit or in whatever -form you choose. The Commission will be glad to receive it and to weigh -it in evaluating whatever these tests may disclose. - -May the record further show that arrangements have been made to -have Dr. Norman Beavers available, adjacent to the room where these -proceedings will take place, in the event that there is any medical -attention required for Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Sheriff Decker gave me this phone number and said he -would be standing by. - -I would like to add to Mr. Specter’s comments that it is correct that -numerous letters have been written by me to the Warren Commission -requesting the polygraph test prior to the intervention of the -psychiatrist, who felt that it would be a mistake. - -At no time has the Warren Commission agreed and stated that they -desired the polygraph test. The test, as I understand, has grown out of -the agreement between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Chief Justice Earl Warren at the -hearing that occurred here about 6 weeks ago. - -I should like to say that I asked Sheriff Bill Decker to get in touch -with Dr. William Beavers, and this was as a result of the conversation -with Mr. Specter, and have Dr. William Beavers available so that he -could be interrogated subsequent to the running of the polygraph test. -Is that agreeable? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that is agreeable, if you desire to do just that. - -Mr. FOWLER. Further, let’s add this, Joe, that in whatever capacity or -degree it would help to substantiate that in our opinion we believe -that Jack Ruby is of unsound mind. - -We would like to submit at a later date a report by Dr. Emanuel Tanay, -a practicing psychiatrist in Detroit, Mich., a report by him based upon -the examination of Jack Ruby, together with the report of Dr. West, and -we would respectfully request that this matter be furnished to you at a -later date. We have it available but not for today, and we would like -to make it a part of this record, as suggested by counsel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, the Commission will be glad to receive any -evidence that you may wish to submit on all the questions which you -have raised during the course of this proceeding. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Whoever is in charge of his body ought not to be an -expert on this thing [referring and indicating the polygraph machine]. - -Mr. FOWLER. You and I have done all we can do on it. I am not going to -physically manhandle Jack Ruby. - -Mr. TONAHILL. No; Jack Ruby is going to insist on doing it, and until -he is declared a ward through an insanity proceedings, he is presumed -to be able to exercise his own consent. - -Mr. FOWLER. That’s right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let us discuss this off the record a moment. - -(Discussion between Mr. Specter and Messrs. Tonahill and Fowler off -the record regarding presence in the room of anyone able to operate a -polygraph machine other than the FBI operator, Mr. Herndon.) - -Mr. FOWLER. Let us put this into the record, that we would further -object to anyone in the sheriff’s office being present. If the only -valid reason is one of security, and I would like the record to -reflect that we are within the confines of the Dallas County Jail, -namely, on 7-M, which is a part of the Dallas County Jail, and that it -would appear to me to be virtually escape proof, and as I understand -previously when Mr. Warren was here, that he was allowed to talk with -Jack Ruby by himself and without the presence of anyone from the -sheriff’s department, which further leads me to believe that this is -not for security purposes only, and we will object to the presence of -anyone from the Dallas County Sheriff’s office. - -Mr. SPECTER. In response to your objection. Mr. Fowler, for the record -I will state that the Commission has requested that its preference be -honored to have no one other than the FBI personnel administering the -test, the court reporter, and me present, but that Sheriff Decker has -taken the position that the prisoner, Jack Ruby, is his responsibility -and that he must have someone on his staff present. Sheriff Decker -did agree to substitute as that person the chief jailer, who has no -knowledge of or experience with polygraph operation, so that the -confidentiality of these proceedings is secure in my view. - -Sheriff Decker’s position is not that Mr. Ruby may escape, but there -may be an incident which would require having someone present, and the -sheriff feels that someone from his staff ought to be present. In view -of his position on that, it is my conclusion that such a proviso is -justifiable under all the circumstances. - -With respect to the conversations between the Chief Justice and Mr. -Ruby, I was present at the time those conversations were held and -they were held in the corner of the room in which we are now sitting, -following the formal testimony of Mr. Ruby at a time when there were -numerous people in another portion of this room in which we now sit, -so that at no time was the Chief Justice alone with Mr. Ruby in any -separate room. Mr. Tonahill was present at that time and I think can -confirm my version. - -Mr. TONAHILL. We were all present and the sheriff’s department men did -leave, the personnel there—the sheriff and his deputies. He left him in -the custody—we left Ruby’s body in charge of a Secret Service man. - -Mr. SPECTER. Elmer Moore. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at that time there were also present Mr. Tonahill, -Mr. Rankin, Congressman Ford, Mr. Ball of the Commission’s staff, and -I was present. At no time did the Chief Justice have any conversations -privately with Mr. Ruby except that, at the very end, Mr. Ruby, the -Chief Justice, and I were in a corner of the room conversing, and there -were many others present at that time, and I think Mr. Tonahill can -verify that. - -Mr. TONAHILL. I was present. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, I want to state that Mr. Fowler has -previously gone to discuss the matter with Mr. Ruby to determine what -are Mr. Ruby’s desires in terms of having a polygraph examination, -in view of the stated position of the Commission that it does not -request such an examination, but has made such an examination available -to Mr. Ruby if he wants one, pursuant to his request to have such an -examination, made during the course of Commission proceedings on June -7, 1964, and the response by Chief Justice Warren that the Commission -would offer him such a polygraph examination in response to his -repeated requests. - -Mr. FOWLER. Now, I would like to answer regarding the presence of a -deputy sheriff here. I believe you advanced the theory that it was -thought by Mr. Decker that there might be something that might occur -during the giving of the polygraph tests that perhaps might disrupt -things. - -We further feel and respectfully request that if there is this feeling -by the polygraph operator himself, that he will be conducting this test -some 10 or 12 feet from a door, and if the sheriff is allowed at all, -that he be allowed to stand at the door and any other exit that might -be in the building, to not be able to view the chart or any part of it. -This would be our request to that. - -Mr. SPECTER. The conditions set forth in your request will be granted -and the sheriff’s custodian will be present at the door so that he may -not have access to the chart, to insure the confidential nature of -these proceedings. - -I think we are now ready to have Mr. Ruby come in, but before he comes -in, let’s take a 5-minute recess. - -Let the record show we are taking a 5-minute recess. - -(Proceedings recessed and resumed as stated.) - -Mr. ALEXANDER. I assume that once Jack is brought in, there will be -complete silence. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Mr. Alexander, do you want to make your request for -the record? - -Mr ALEXANDER. Yes; please. At this time for and on behalf of the Dallas -County, Tex., district attorney’s office, a request is made that the -Warren Commission furnish the district attorney’s office a list of the -questions asked Jack Ruby in this polygraph examination, and that a -copy of the recording made by the polygraph machine be furnished the -Dallas County district attorney’s office. We would also like a copy -of the interpretation of the test, but whether or not we are given an -interpretation of the test, we do want the aforementioned questions and -actual tape of the polygraph machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, you may want to make a similar request as to -the results. - -Mr. FOWLER. In behalf of Jack Ruby and as attorney for Jack Ruby, I -respectfully request that the Warren Commission deny the request of the -Dallas district attorney’s office for the following reasons: Number -One—that this is a matter of request that has been made by Mr. Ruby -to the Warren Commission only, that if the district attorney’s office -were furnished with these questions and answers and any other matters -pertaining to the giving of this polygraph test, it might and could -and very well effect the outcome of his case that is now on appeal -before the court of criminal appeals here in the State of Texas, and we -respectfully request that the request by the district attorney’s office -be denied by the Warren Commission in all of their requests for this -information. - -On the other hand, we who represent Jack Ruby, respectfully request -that we be furnished a copy of the questions that will be asked and -that if some determination is made as to the answers and the outcome is -ever made public, that we be furnished the information of the outcome -of the tests. - -Now, this is off the record. - -(Statement by Mr. Fowler to Mr. Specter, off the record, requesting -that Mr. Ruby be advised again when brought into the room for the test, -the requests of his attorneys and family with respect to taking the -test.) - -Mr. SPECTER. In response to those two statements, no commitment can -be made on behalf of the Commission anticipating the action of the -Commission in advance of knowledge by the Commission of the results of -the tests, and any additional evidence which may be submitted on the -competency of Mr. Ruby which may aid the Commission in the evaluation -of the results of the polygraph examination. The requests of Mr. -Alexander and Mr. Fowler will be transmitted to the Commission and -will be carefully studied by the Commission before any final decision -is reached. - -With respect to a list of questions, the procedure as previously -outlined will permit all parties to be present when the questions are -enumerated, so that the questions asked of Mr. Ruby will be a surprise -to no one, but will be discussed in his presence and in the presence of -representatives of both the district attorney’s office and Mr. Ruby’s -defense counsel, so that there is no limitation to the taking of notes -on the questions that may be asked. - -With respect to the results, including a copy of the results themselves -and a copy of the interpretation, no commitment can be made until the -Commission has examined the results in this matter fully. - -With respect to affecting the outcome of any subsequent proceedings, -the Commission has exercised the greatest possible care in avoiding the -influencing of the State court proceedings. - -The action taken by the Commission has been designed to fulfill its -function, while at the same time not interfering, or interfering to the -minimal possible extent, with the State court proceedings. Now, before -we get Mr. Ruby in, do you want to make a request for his doctor; and -when we get Mr. Ruby in, we will make the other statement and then we -will be able to go ahead, but I don’t think we want to go through any -more with him present than we have to. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes; it is requested that Dr. William Beavers, who has -been retained by Jack Ruby’s family to observe and treat Jack Ruby, be -present during the examination in order that he may observe and render -any expression that he may have to offer that will be of benefit to -the Commission as well as to Jack Ruby’s mental health condition, with -special reference to interpreting the results of the polygraph tests, -and as an aid and guide to the Commission in its interpretation of it -as to what weight and value to give to it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that request, Mr. Tonahill, go only for the time that -everyone is present, or do you want him present, while the examination -itself is going on? - -Mr. TONAHILL. While the examination itself is going on—before and -during the examinations—before the examination and during the actual -examination, so that he can actually observe the actual examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. In view of the expression of concern that has been made by -Dr. Tanay, that request will be granted, since it is made by counsel -for Mr. Ruby at this time. - -The JAILER (on entering the room). He will be right up. - -(Mr. Ruby entered the hearing room at 2:23 p.m.) - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show that Mr. Ruby is present. Mr. -Ruby, I am Arlen Specter. How are you today? - -Mr. RUBY. Fine; how are you? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, that’s Mr. Specter of the Warren Commission. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, why don’t you have a chair over here—we’ve been -getting things set up, and let me introduce you to everybody so you -will know who everybody is. - -This is Miss Odell Oliver, who is the court reporter, and she will take -your testimony just like we did before. - -Miss OLIVER. How do you do, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. SPECTER. And I guess you know Dr. Beavers, and this is Mr. Wood. -He is one of the polygraph operators with the FBI, and this is Mr. -Herndon, one of the operators and with the FBI also. This is Mr. -Alexander, and your name, sir? - -The JAILER. Mr. Holman, E. L. - -Mr. SPECTER. This is Mr. Holman. - -Mr. RUBY. Can Fowler remain here after I start with the interrogation? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; Mr. Ruby. The procedure which we’ve discussed is this -and this is subject to agreement of all sides, and we’ve been through -it, but let me go through it with you. We are going to conduct the -polygraph examination in a standard way, which involves a series of -questions, about eight or nine in duration. Before we start with the -series, the questions will be explained to you in advance so that you -will know exactly what the questions are to be and you will know what -the operator means by the questions. He will explain them so that -there is no possibility of any confusion in terms of what the questions -mean so they won’t surprise you. You will have full awareness of what -is going to be asked. - -At that time, everybody who is present in this room will be present -when the questions are discussed in a general way. So that the record -may be complete, let it show that Mr. Fowler is here and Mr. Tonahill -is here, and Mr. Alexander is here, and Mr. Herndon and Mr. Wood are -here. Dr. Beavers is here, and Chief Jailer E. L. Holman is here, Odell -Oliver is here, and of course, I am here. Those are the only people who -are here now and they are the only people who will be present when we -explain each series of questions to you, so that you understand what is -happening and what questions are going to be asked. - -Now, scientifically, it’s preferable to have as few people possible -at the time the examination is administered as we can, so for that -purpose, we are trying to cut down the number as much as we can. We -had originally thought that the only people present would be the two -operators, the court reporter and I. Now we have Mr. Holman here on the -custody question, and then your counsel requested especially that Dr. -Beavers be present at the time of the administration of the tests. It -is our desire to have only those people present, which would mean Mr. -Alexander wouldn’t be here and Mr. Tonahill wouldn’t be here and Mr. -Fowler wouldn’t be here at the time the test is administered. - -Mr. RUBY. I would like to have Mr. Fowler here in preference of Dr. -Beavers. May I request that? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you may request that. - -Mr. RUBY. And how soon will the answers be released, as soon as -possible? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, the answers are going to be compiled by the FBI and -then they’re going to go to the Commission, to Chief Justice Warren -of the Commission, and I am not in a position to say to you when the -answers will be released. That will be up to the Commission. They will -have to study the results of the tests and make a decision on the time -of release of the tests. Everything is up to them as to whether they -will be released, what the release will be, and when it will be made. - -I want to say preliminarily before we start, that the Commission has -not requested the test, but it is responding to the request which was -made on your behalf by letter, before the Chief Justice questioned you -on June 7. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. You requested then that a test be given. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. We want it to be perfectly plain for the record that the -Commission isn’t pushing this matter, but it’s only in response to your -request, and that you have learned counsel here who are representing -you, and you are aware of that. We want to make it pointed and clear -that anything you say could be used against you, and it is possible for -adverse or unfavorable inferences to be drawn. Whenever a defendant who -is involved in a criminal proceeding says anything, anything he says -could be held against him. - -I know Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tonahill have advised you of that and that -has been brought to your attention, but this record should show that we -called it to your attention as forcefully and as clearly as we could, -so that you would understand what we are doing here. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Mr. Specter; let me explain one thing. Under Texas law, -nothing that Jack says here could be used against him in Texas. - -Mr. RUBY. Bill, I’m not quarreling with that, and I know you certainly -are not going to help me, I know that, but I want to get a copy to the -chief as soon as I can, Chief Holman over there. - -Mr. SPECTER. You would like to do what, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. To have the report as soon as the results are analyzed. - -Mr. SPECTER. That, as I say, is up to the Commission, but you -understand what I have said to you here? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And under those circumstances do you continue to request -that such an examination be given you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes: any questions you want to ask, anything pertaining to -this—I will answer anything without reluctance. There’s no punches to -be pulled. I want to answer anything and everything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, I think, wants to make a statement for the -record too. - -Mr. RUBY. In fact, Bill, you can stay here If you want to. - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack: let me ask you this: A little while ago I came up -into the jail cell and talked with you, is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. FOWLER. And at that time I advised you that the Warren Commission -people were here at your request to give you a polygraph test? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. FOWLER. I also showed you a letter from Mr. Gordon Shanklin of the -FBI here in Dallas, that he had received requests that were submitted -to him by Mr. Sol Dann, who is the legal advisor to your family? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. FOWLER. And that certain requests were made there, No. 1, that the -tests would be given in the presence of Dr. Tanay, with no outsiders -present, with particular reference to anyone from the district -attorney’s office or the sheriff’s office, and further, that it -would have to be assured that the results of the tests would be held -confidential by the Commission, and that under no circumstances made -available to the district attorney or the press. Further, that written -authority for such examination be obtained from Mr. Earl Ruby. Now, I -have explained this to you, have I not? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; can I change that now? - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, let me go on further, Jack, and as your attorney of -record, at that time I advised that you not take nor submit to this -polygraph test. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. FOWLER. And at this time, as your attorney of record, I advise -you in the presence of these gentlemen and Commission, these people -representing the Commission, that you will be doing so against the -advice of your counsel. - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. FOWLER. And against the advice and wishes of your family. - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. FOWLER. Now, do you still at this time wish to take the tests? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I would also like to add that, if I have a right to -say this—I want it be made immediately that the district attorney’s -office should receive whatever is necessary in regard to the answers -to the district attorney, and as I once wrote to District Attorney -Henry Wade, that I didn’t want to publicize it, but if possible they -may—I would prefer that naturally, but at that time it was so easy to -get a lie detector test, I wrote to Henry Wade; that it is not for -publicity purposes but only for authenticity and the truth. So, I agree -with everything except that if I may supersede the attorney and say -I’m not concerned about withholding anything. I want it to be released -immediately to all parties concerned. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, your request on that, Mr. Ruby, will be transmitted -to the Commission and they will consider that very carefully in -reaching whatever conclusion they do about releasing it. - -Mr. RUBY. I want to supersede the attorney, Mr. Dann, in stating that -I want everything to come out immediately, as soon as possible, and -whoever wants to know the results—what the results are—I want it to be -known, regardless of which way it turns. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, you want Mr. Fowler to remain with you during -the course of the examination? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. In view of Mr. Ruby’s request, it is my view that it ought -to be honored and that the group is of such a size now that it ought to -remain as it is constituted at the present time for both sessions. - -We have done our best to limit it, but since it is a legitimate request -here to include Mr. Fowler, we will sit in this group during all -portions of the test. - -Mr. Ruby has indicated that he has no objection to having Mr. Alexander -here, and if one side is here, the other may be. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Mr. Specter, if it will help the ultimate in the tests, -I have no objection to leaving the room, and perhaps Mr. Tonahill, I -think, could very well leave, or if Jack has no objections and perhaps -wants us here, we will stay. - -Mr. SPECTER. I am advised by Mr. Herndon that the technical -considerations are not persuasive as to one or two more people, -with this many present, so that if it’s acceptable to all parties, -specifically Mr. Ruby, we will just proceed with the group that’s -presently here during all portions, the explanatory portion to Mr. Ruby -and the actual testing itself. - -Is that agreeable, gentlemen? Is that agreeable with you, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Well—— - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me make this request. I don’t think Bill can -read a polygraph test, but I would feel better as your attorney if Mr. -Alexander were not present. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t mind everyone remaining here. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, again—let me advise you that if Mr. -Alexander remains—let me advise you of your rights—that if Mr. -Alexander remains, he is a member of the district attorney’s staff, -the answers to these questions could be used against you at some later -date, if they are adverse to your rights, and as your attorney, I -advise you that it would be my suggestion to you and request to you -that Mr. Alexander not be allowed to remain. - -Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Alexander). Will you object? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Not at all, Jack. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. SPECTER. If Mr. Alexander is willing to abide by your request, -Mr. Ruby, then your request will govern as far as the proceeding is -concerned. - -Mr. FOWLER. Now, Mr. Alexander and I—when it comes to me representing -you or any other client—I represent one client and he represents the -other. He, in my opinion, is a perfect gentleman, but in the courtroom -he is a perfect prosecutor, and I like to be as near a perfect defense -lawyer as I can, and I believe that by allowing him to stay here—— - -Mr. RUBY. No, Fowler—— - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, I’m thinking of you now. I’m asking you to do this, -and again, this is entirely up to you, so it’s your decision. I think I -have fully explained to you the reason why we would not want him here. - -Mr. RUBY. Now, I’ve got the monkey on my back now. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, you’ve got more than a monkey on your back, Jack. -This is your decision. - -(Conference between Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby out of the hearing of this -reporter and others in the room.) - -Mr. RUBY. Well, whatever my attorney suggests, I guess I will have to -follow through. - -Mr. SPECTER. Your request then is that Mr. Alexander not be present? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. That will be fine. - -Mr. SPECTER. If it is all right with you, we will proceed on that -basis, but of course, that will go only for the time the test is -actually being administered to you. - -Mr. FOWLER. That’s right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Bell Herndon will now start to explain the proceedings -to you. He is the operator of the polygraph, the principal operator -here, Mr. Ruby. As I explained to you, Mr. Herndon and Mr. Wood, are -joint operators for the FBI on the polygraph or lie detector test and -Mr. Herndon will take over now to explain just how it’s going to work. - -Mr. HERNDON. Thank you. Mr. Ruby, first of all, I want to show you my -credentials so you will know that I am a special agent and I am from -the FBI laboratory in Washington, D.C. (Exhibited instruments to Mr. -Ruby.) - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Perhaps to set the record straight, Mr. Specter, I might -mention that my colleague, Special Agent Wood, is not actually a -polygraph examiner, but he is here to assist me in this examination. Is -that all right? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, that’s fine to specify that exact status. - -Mr. HERNDON. He is here to assist me and to help me in the -interrogation of this gentleman. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, before you start on the questioning, we will -want to put Mr. Ruby under oath, so pause at that point, but proceed -now to explain what is going to happen. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, actually prior to any polygraph examination -which the Federal Bureau of Investigation gives to anyone, we have a -consent form that I want to read to you, and as I want to remind you, -of course, you have been advised of your rights, and there is no sense -of my going over it again, but I want to remind you that your counsel -and your attorneys are here. - -I will now read to you this consent form that we use as a standard -procedure on this type of examination. - -“Consent to Interview with Polygraph. I, Jack L. Ruby”—I believe that’s -the way you sign your name? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “I, Jack L. Ruby, consent freely and voluntarily to be -interviewed by special agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, -which I also know as the FBI, in connection with the President’s -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy investigation. I -agree to the use of the polygraph or so-called lie detector during this -interview or any part of it, and I am willing to be present at the time -and place of interview for such time as is necessary to complete the -interview. - -“No threats or promises of any kind have been made to me to obtain my -consent to this interview.” - -Now, I can let you read that if you would like or your attorney might -like to read it. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s perfectly all right. - -Mr. HERNDON. If it’s agreeable with you, I would appreciate it if you -would sign it, Mr. Ruby, if that’s agreeable with your counsel? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. And Mr. Wood and I will witness that. - -Mr. RUBY. Do you want it “Jack Ruby” or “Jack L. Ruby”? - -Mr. HERNDON. You sign it as you usually sign, but do you want to read -it any further, sir? - -Mr. RUBY. I’ll just sign it. - -(Mr. Ruby at this time signed the instrument referred to, which was -thereafter signed by witnesses Special Agents Herndon and Wood.) - -Mr. RUBY. Did you get your pants sewed up, Joe? - -Mr. TONAHILL. It went through to my leg. - -Mr. RUBY. That was a pretty rough brawl we had, wasn’t it, Joe? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Joe, I’d appreciate it if you weren’t in the room. Can I ask -you to leave, Joe? - -Mr. TONAHILL. I’ll be glad to leave, if you want me to, Jack. - -Mr. RUBY. As a matter of fact, I prefer Bill Alexander to you, you’re -supposed to be my friend. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Let the record show that Mr. Ruby says he prefers Bill -Alexander being here during this investigation, who is the assistant -district attorney who asked that a jury give him the death sentence, to -myself, who asked the jury to acquit him, his attorney. - -Mr. HERNDON. May we proceed? - -Mr. SPECTER. Please do, Mr. Herndon. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, as you know, we have a doctor here, and before -we begin anything, I want you to try to relax. I realize that there is -some tension here, and before we proceed any further, I want to ask -you very generally, how do you feel today, right now, specifically -speaking? - -Mr. RUBY. Very good, except—may I be very honest? - -Mr. HERNDON. Of course. - -Mr. RUBY. What is the preference of the doctor being here? Is he -supposed to be my doctor, I mean Dr. Beavers? - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, do you want to answer that? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; Mr. Ruby, he is here at the request of Mr. Tonahill, -and I believe concurred in, by your chief counsel, Mr. Fowler. - -Mr. HERNDON. The reason I asked you about your health, Mr. Ruby, -obviously I don’t want to proceed with this interrogation of the -polygraph type when you obviously may not feel well physically today. -I wouldn’t want to subject you to the examination unless you felt well -enough to take it, and I will ask you some very general questions about -your health in regard to your history in that regard. - -Have you every had any respiratory diseases or illnesses such as asthma -or trouble with breathing, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. None whatever. - -Mr. HERNDON. Any sinus condition or trouble? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Have you ever had any heart ailments? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HERNDON. No heart trouble to your knowledge. - -Mr. RUBY. [No response.] - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, have you had any medication of any type -whatsoever today, such as tranquilizers, aspirin, any drugs at all -today? - -Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever. - -Mr. HERNDON. While you’ve been here in custody, have you been under any -medication? - -Mr. RUBY. None whatever. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, at this time I shall administer the oath to -Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. RUBY. You want me to stand up? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; if you would please. As assistant counsel, I -have the authority under the law to administer an oath to you for -proceedings in the nature of depositions. - -Do you solemnly swear that the answers and information you shall -give in this proceeding before the President’s Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. RUBY. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have the answers you have heretofore given in response to -the informal questions already asked of you been the truth, sir? - -Mr. RUBY. Repeat that again? - -Mr. SPECTER. Have the answers which you have already given in response -to the informal questions put to you by Mr. Herndon and others here, -are they all true? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, about my health—are all true—yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Herndon, will you proceed. - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Thank you. - -I understand, Mr. Ruby, that you have had your lunch today, is that -correct? I want to make sure you have had a chance to eat. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. HERNDON. When did you eat, how long ago? - -Mr. RUBY. I would guess approximately 12:30. - -Mr. HERNDON. You’ve had no digestive problems while you’ve been here? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Have you had any coffee today—these are questions that -will help us later on? - -Mr. RUBY. One early in the morning. - -Mr. HERNDON. Early in the morning? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did you have more than one cup? - -Mr. RUBY. One and a half cups. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s your usual amount of coffee you have? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did you have any coffee at lunch, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. No, I did not. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, Mr. Ruby, have you ever had a—— - -Mr. RUBY. The reason why I say this, there was some newspaper items -recently that brought up the fact that I was of unsound mind. Do I -sound that way to you at the present time? - -Mr. HERNDON. I don’t feel that I am qualified at this time to make any -statement in that regard. I’m sure you would understand that that is -something you can’t give in a moment’s notice. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Would you care to sit over here, Mr. Ruby, and I will -further explain the test to you. - -Mr. RUBY. Surely. - -(At this time Mr. Ruby conferred with Mr. Fowler out of the hearing of -this reporter and others in the room.) - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -(At this time Mr. Ruby seated himself in the polygraph test chair.) - -Mr. HERNDON. This is a polygraph chair. The reason it is so -constructed, we want to take advantage of these high arms [indicating -arms on the polygraph chair] so that we can get a better tracing, and -very frankly, Mr. Ruby, I want to give you as best an examination as -I can. So, it’s going to take a little time and I want you to relax -as best you can. I realize you might be a little nervous, and I will -certainly take that into consideration. Let me just briefly, Mr. -Ruby, tell you about the polygraph examination and what we’re going -to do today. I want to proceed by hooking up some of these pieces of -equipment and briefly tell you what it is. Now, may I ask you to remove -the material you have in your pocket, sir, and you might want to give -it to your counsel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Ruby has removed all the -objects from his upper left-hand pocket. - -(After removing objects mentioned, Mr. Ruby handed the same to Mr. -Fowler.) - -Mr. HERNDON. I gather from looking at your overalls that you don’t have -any restrictive garments or belts or anything underneath on you which -would hinder you or your relaxation? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. HERNDON. You are very comfortable? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Very fine, Mr. Ruby. Now, Mr. Ruby, there are two ways I -can do this. I can do two things—I can either go ahead and put this -equipment on you right now and describe briefly how it’s going to work, -or if you want, I can go over these first series of questions and give -you some instructions, and then put the equipment on. Which do you -prefer? - -Mr. RUBY. Which is the most effective way to get what you want? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, I think in view of the fact that we will have some -discussion here, I want to make sure that you perfectly understand -these questions, I will go ahead and give you some basic instructions -about how these questions are going to be asked and how I want you to -answer them. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. And then later on, as I hook you up, I will briefly -describe what this equipment is going to do. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph examination will entail, as Mr. Specter -indicated, just approximately 8 to 9 questions, Mr. Ruby, in what we -call a series. Now, I’m going to go over these questions with you -right now very carefully. I want to make sure that the way I have them -phrased is in such a way that you understand perfectly what I mean by -them. We will discuss the question and you may if you want to, even -answer the question at this time. - -Mr. RUBY. I would appreciate it myself. - -Mr. HERNDON. In other words, I’m going to tell you what the question is -going to be and you shall feel free to answer it “Yes” or “No.” - -Mr. FOWLER. Excuse me, sir. - -Mr. HERNDON. Certainly. - -Mr. FOWLER. At this time, Jack, I request that in view of the fact that -you’re not hooked up, that you do not answer the question and reserve -those until such time as you will be on the machine. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s fine. - -Mr. HERNDON. Then, we will just discuss the questions. - -Mr. RUBY. Do it to your advantage, may I add. - -Mr. HERNDON. I generally prefer in my practice with the polygraph to -have the gentleman answer the question so that he knows he has already -answered it, and as a matter of record, he knows that that question is -coming along. - -Mr. RUBY. Please let me do it, will you? [Addressing Mr. Fowler.] - -Mr. FOWLER (no response). - -Mr. HERNDON. I will bow to whatever Mr. Specter or counsel wants to do -in this regard. - -Mr. RUBY. Fowler, I hate to dispute with you, but let me do it this way? - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, Jack, again, Mr. Alexander is here and again I -tell you this—that the answers to some of these questions could be -absolutely very detrimental to you. - -Mr. RUBY. They can’t be. - -Mr. FOWLER. I’m talking about from a legal standpoint. Now, morally, -I know how you feel and you want to do the best you can for the -Commission. - -Mr. RUBY. I will. - -Mr. FOWLER. But by the same token, this gentleman over here [referring -to Mr. Alexander] represents the State, who at this time is not -representing you. Now, if we could allow Mr. Alexander to have the -benefit of the nature of the questions, with the exception of the -answers—if this is what Jack wants—but I do not want Mr. Alexander to -have the benefit of the answers. - -Mr. SPECTER. The test may be conducted either way. As Mr. Herndon -has explained, he has a slight preference to have the answers, but -the ultimate decision on that is up to Mr. Ruby and his counsel. The -Commission will proceed in either manner. - -Mr. RUBY. It’s unfortunate that my attorney, Mr. Fowler, don’t see as -I do. I would like to give every cooperation without the slightest -fraction of interference. That’s why I requested that. You won’t let me -do it that way, huh, Fowler? - -Mr. FOWLER. I’m requesting that you do not, Jack. - -Mr. HERNDON. It will be no problem. - -(Addressing the court reporter.) Do you have any problem hearing? - -COURT REPORTER. If Mr. Ruby would talk just a little bit louder it -would be fine. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, I have placed all these questions in a form -so that they are very short and concise and can be answered only by -“Yes” or “No,” and that’s the way we have to ask a question during a -polygraph examination, but I’ll go over them with you and give you -an idea of what they’re going to be. During the normal series, I’m -going to ask several questions, of course, which are pertinent to the -Commission’s investigation, but I will also ask you several questions -which more or less just deal with your identity, your background and -your name, so you will have two types of questions that I will ask. -Now, the first question I’m going to ask you under series 1, which is -rather pertinent, and I want you to know that I’m going to ask it, and -I’m going to phrase it as simply as I can. - -“Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?” - -Now, what I mean by “know” is did you have any personal acquaintance of -this individual, any personal acquaintance? Have you ever seen him, did -you have any conversation with him? In other words, as you would say, -“Well, I know that person.” - -Mr. RUBY. Should I answer that? - -Mr. FOWLER. Not now, Jack. - -Mr. HERNDON. That question will be asked or repeated, and so you and -I will understand what we want, I’ll repeat it. “Did you know Oswald -before November 22, 1963?” - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HERNDON. Another question that I will ask in series 1, after I get -the instrument adjusted, and it will be short and simple and answerable -only by “Yes” or “No.” - -“Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?” - -Do you understand that question? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is very clear. - -Mr. HERNDON. I tried to make them as short as possible and as clear as -possible. Again, I’m going to ask you just as a matter of format here, -“Did you take any medication this morning?” You have already answered -that question, but that will be one of the questions I will ask you. -I’m also going to ask on series 1, just to give you a little time to -relax here, some of these rather simple questions such as: “Did you -voluntarily request this test?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. You have already indicated your answer to that. And, I -will ask a rather obvious question as a matter of identity, “Is your -first name Jack? Is your last name Ruby?” These types of questions will -be asked and I want to make sure I cover each and every one. I’m going -to ask you, “Do you use the middle name ‘Leon’?” I understand you do; -is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. No; very rarely, very rarely. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, you can answer that as you see fit, when I -ask it on the test. I will ask you this question, and I want to ask -this as a matter of record for me because I interview a lot of people: -“Have you ever been arrested?” Now, what I mean in this regard, and -I’ll probably change that phraseology to “Have you ever been arrested -before? Prior to the shooting, have you ever been arrested?” Now, what -I mean by “arrested,” Mr. Ruby, is were you ever actually placed under -arrest and brought before some type of magistrate and charged with any -crime. That question will also be on the first examination. Those are -the questions I’m going to ask you. Do you have any questions about -them, sir? Are they clear and concise to you? - -Mr. RUBY. When you speak of the last question about a crime, I’ve never -been involved in a crime, so if you’ve been arrested for selling beer -after hours, does that qualify as an answer too? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, what I mean by “arrested” is if you were formally -charged with something? - -Mr. RUBY. Like a felony? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, any type of a formal arrest, wherein you actually -were arrested and charged before a magistrate, of offending a law -that’s on the record, either of a community, a city, or the State. - -Mr. RUBY. You don’t necessarily have to have been found guilty or -anything, just the point of being arrested, is that right? - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, let me inject this, Mr. Ruby. If these questions -when I ask them, if you have something in doubt in your mind of how to -answer it “Yes” or “No,” just refrain from answering it, and we’ll go -back after the test and discuss it. - -Mr. RUBY. Very well. - -Mr. HERNDON. In other words, I want you to be able to freely and -truthfully say “Yes” or “No” to these questions. If one of them leaves -any area of doubt in your mind and you are hesitant to answer it, feel -free not to say anything, and we will just proceed, and after I stop -the instrument, I will then go over that question with you. All right, -sir? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll just briefly hook up the -instrument and I’ll probably run it for a little while just to get it -adjusted to you, and inasmuch as you’ve never had a polygraph before, I -will explain the instrument’s parts to you. You can see here, Mr. Ruby, -I have a rubber tube and I’m going to place that around your chest, -sir. This is what we call the pneumograph and that will accurately -record you respiratory pattern as you inhale and exhale. Would you be -kind enough to raise your arms, sir? - -Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Herndon). - -(Reporter’s note: 2:58 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, as you can see, as you inhale the tube stretches, and -as you exhale it decreases in size and I will have a tracing of it on -the polygraph. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. During the examination and as we run the test, I would -appreciate it if you would sit perfectly relaxed, rather straight in -the chair, with both of your feet flat on the floor. Now, that will -record, during the interview, the tracing of your breathing, and I want -you for this reason to breathe perfectly normal and perfectly relaxed. -Now, the next thing I want to put on will be on your hand and I’ll put -it on your right hand here. I notice you have one finger cut off on -that hand. What happened there, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, running a nightclub you get involved in various -altercations. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, this next component that I want you to see will be -what we call the Galvanic Skin Response, GSR. I’m going to place these -on your fingers, and actually all this simply does, through these -instruments and the electronic processes, is to record any variance -in the electrical conductivity or the resistance of your skin. It’s -helpful to me in this examination. Your hands are very good. They are -not sweating a bit. Is that too tight? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Is it uncomfortable? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby. Now, neither one of these two -components will you feel at all. That will be no problem at all. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, the next component that I will put on your left -arm, because it’s closer to your heart, and this is the cardiograph -cuff, and this is going to give me an accurate tracing of any relative -changes in your blood pressure. These will just be relative changes. I -won’t be able to necessarily know what your blood pressure is. I will -have relative blood pressure changes, and I will also have on a chart a -change in any heartbeat or heart rate you might have. - -Now, I am going to record all these physiological responses as we -discuss the questions, and as you answer them I will have an indication -of what is taking place physiologically, what is going on in your -physical system, and which will assist me in interpreting whether or -not you may be deceiving with regard to the question. - -Mr. RUBY. What is your name, please, sir? - -Mr. WOOD. Wood. I’m with the FBI. - -Mr. RUBY. Where is Shanklin, I thought he was supposed to be here? - -Mr. WOOD. He is in town but he is not here. - -Mr. RUBY. Isn’t Mr. Shanklin the chief? - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to relax your arm, Mr. Ruby? Now, do you have -any questions about what I’ve done so far, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. No. Do you want me to relate my story to you now? - -Mr. HERNDON. No; I want you to sit perfectly still. There will be no -conversation, and I’m going to get the instrument adjusted to you. That -will take only a few minutes, so just sit and try not to move. I’m not -going to ask you any questions at this time. I just want to adjust the -machine to you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, have you now covered all the preliminaries up -to the point of asking the questions? - -Mr. HERNDON. Just about. I will probably repeat some basic instructions -for Mr. Ruby just before we start asking him the questions. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, then I think those who are going to leave -should leave now so that we are ready to go as soon as your instrument -is in tune. - -May the record show that Mr. Alexander has left the room. - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, do you have any objections to Mr. Tonahill being here? - -Mr. RUBY. If Tonahill is going to be here—I don’t believe he’s—I know -Bill Alexander is my friend, so he can stay, but Joe is supposed to be -my friend. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, we’re not putting it on that basis, Jack. This is -just purely personal. - -Mr. RUBY. Just let me tell you this, Fowler. I have nothing to gain by -Joe being here, because—I have nothing to gain. - -Mr. FOWLER. All right, all right. Then, we will ask Joe and Mr. -Alexander to step out. - -Mr. RUBY. You still want Alexander to step out? - -Mr. FOWLER. I certainly think so, Jack. - -Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Alexander who was standing in the doorway to -the examining room). Now, Bill, don’t say I didn’t request you, now? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. I know it, Jack. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill -have just gone out of the room. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, it will take me a few moments to get this -adjusted. If you desire to talk to Mr. Fowler, if you can sit still and -talk it will be all right. - -(Conference at this time between Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby out of the -hearing of the court reporter and others in the room.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to sit still now, Mr. Ruby. I’m not going to -ask you any questions. I just want to get everything adjusted at this -time. You will hear a few scratching noises on the paper. - -Now, will you take a deep breath, Mr. Ruby, and then relax, sir? - -Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Herndon). - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, just breathe normally. - -Now, if everyone will just be quiet for a few moments. There will be no -questions asked. I just want to get the instrument adjusted. - -(Reporter’s note: 3:05 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON (snapped his fingers twice). I made that noise purposely, -Mr. Ruby. Now, I’m going to let you get the feel of that cuff as I -inflate it, and there will be a little bit of pressure put against your -arm. You’ve had your blood pressure taken by a doctor, I’m sure? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. You recall that. It will be the same feeling and I will -have to leave it on just for a matter of a few moments, and if you -will sit perfectly still and put your feet flat on the floor and look -straight ahead. - -I will now apply a little bit of pressure on that arm. You probably -feel a little pressure. All right, sir? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. From time to time I may come over and raise and lower your -arm to make sure it’s perfectly relaxed. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s all right. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel your pulse beat? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. You can see and feel your pulse beat and in a moment -you can see how it records. Very fine, Mr. Ruby. You have been very -cooperative. I don’t think we will have any problem. - -Mr. RUBY. You can see the differences of nature—if certain things are -wrong or right, can’t you? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, I have to very carefully interpret what I see. -I’m going to take all these things together at a later date into -consideration, and I don’t see any difficulty. - -Mr. RUBY. Because—I want my chief to understand this here and see that. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you a little more relaxed now? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be. I don’t want to begin until you feel you -are perfectly relaxed. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I’m very much relaxed because I have nothing—I’m not -sparring with it, so I must be relaxed. - -Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. I appreciate your cooperation very much and you -are cooperating with me very well. - -In a moment, you can move your hand a little bit to get a little -circulation. You probably felt just a little tingling sensation? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I felt a little bit of throbbing in these two fingers. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are they too tight? - -Mr. RUBY. No; that’s fine. - -Mr. HERNDON. I can relax this a little bit on your arm. I just want it -close enough so that they won’t slip, just about like that. I don’t -want this to cause you any discomfort to you. Now, if you are about -ready? - -Mr. RUBY. I am ready. - -Mr. HERNDON. You remember, I’m going to ask you just the questions that -we discussed before and that’s all. - -Mr. RUBY. You mean that’s all? - -Mr. HERNDON. Oh, no; this is just series 1, Mr. Ruby. We’re going to -cover many questions. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to go rather deliberately slow on this first one -until you become acquainted with the procedure. - -Mr. RUBY. Believe me, I know the answers, so you can ask me as fast as -you like. - -Mr. HERNDON. During the test, again, if you will keep your feet on the -floor at all times, flat on the floor at all times, and try not to -move. I know it’s hard to sit perfectly still for the 3 to 4 minutes, -but it is to your advantage to try to keep from moving. If you have to -cough or move, I’ll probably observe it and take it into consideration. - -During the examination, Mr. Ruby, I know we have other people in the -room, but I would appreciate it if you would just try to concentrate -as if there were just you and me in here and these questions are -coming out and if you know the answer in your own mind, I want you -to truthfully answer them “Yes” or “No.” Do not give any qualifying -statement or additional comments. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. On the other hand, if I come to one of these questions -that you’re not sure whether you want to say “Yes” or “No,” there is -some area in doubt, just don’t say anything and we’ll go back and -discuss it later. - -Mr. RUBY. Okay. - -Mr. HERNDON. If you will, look right over here, look straight ahead at -the wall and relax, and hear my question and give your answer to it, -“Yes” or “No.” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HERNDON. I will tell you when I am going to begin. I will tell you -when this particular test is over, but do not relax or move until I -give you the word. - -Mr. RUBY. Very well. - -Mr. HERNDON. As I say, you will hear a little scratching noise and I -will be marking the paper as we proceed. - -Mr. RUBY. Can I speak? - -Mr. HERNDON. Right now if you want to; yes, sir. - -Mr. RUBY. Fowler, I beg you to get Bill Alexander and Joe Tonahill back -in here. I tell you. Will you do it, please. - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let’s go on just like it is now. I don’t want you to -have any apprehensions that we’re trying to keep anybody out. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. It’s taking me about a minute to get the instrument warmed -up again here. - -All right, I will now put a little pressure on that arm, Mr. Ruby, and -I will let you know when I’m going to begin. Once again, just answer -the questions truthfully, “Yes” or “No.” - -(Reporter’s note: 3:10 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin. - -“Is your first name Jack?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you voluntarily request this test?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you use the middle name ‘Leon’?” - -Mr. RUBY (no immediate response). How can I answer that? I don’t have -my driver’s license, but I don’t use it. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, just sit still and we will discuss it. “Did you -assist Oswald in the assassination?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been arrested?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you take any medication this morning?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all my questions truthfully?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. This first series is over. If you will just sit still for -a moment, I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move -your arm and relax and get the circulation moving. - -Mr. RUBY. I’m all right. - -Mr. HERNDON. That wasn’t too bad, sir; was it? - -Mr. RUBY (no response). - -(Reporter’s note: 3:12 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, there are two questions I want to ask you about -on our first series. - -I know you couldn’t refrain from laughing and talking about that middle -name of “Leon.” Do you want to further explain that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I don’t use it, so hence it’s sort of a remembrance -of a very good friend of mine. I used it on my driver’s license, but -since then it has become a habit of keeping it on my driver’s license, -but I’ve never been called with it and very rarely do I sign papers -that way, but once I stated it on my driver’s license, I had to follow -through with it that way, and that’s the answer to it. Once you have it -on your driver’s license, you have to have it the same way. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you like the name “Leon”? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I did more for sentimental reasons, but as I went along -later I sort of dropped it. - -Mr. HERNDON. Is it actually on your driver’s license, though? - -Mr. RUBY. I think it’s Jack L. Ruby. No—Jack Leon Ruby. It’s Jack -Leon Ruby on my driver’s license and that’s something that once you -start with it, and its been years ago, when you renew your license, -it remains the same, but outside of signing papers or contracts or -anything of vital importance, you only find out it’s much simpler to -sign “Jack Ruby.” - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, and one other question. I would just -like to ask you what went on in your mind when you did answer the -question “Yes” to “Have you ever been arrested?” - -Mr. RUBY. Well, the police had taken me—I had been arrested, because -when the police officer said, “Jack, come on, we’re taking you down,” -you’re arrested. - -Mr. HERNDON. When was this? Are you referring to this current or some -previous time? - -Mr. RUBY. Previous to that. - -Mr. HERNDON. What situation was that? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, it was—I was arrested for dancing after curfew. Some -fellows smuggled in intoxicants after hours. - -Mr. HERNDON. Was this here in your own place or some other place? - -Mr. RUBY. At my own place. No felony crime, nothing serious—only -misdemeanors. - -Mr. HERNDON. You consider that was a misdemeanor? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; in other words—a $25 fine. I never have been in any -criminal activity. - -Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. Does your arm feel all right now? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Very good. We have finished with the first series. - -Mr. SPECTER. I am now going to ask Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill to -return between now and the time we start on the next test. - -May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are back in the -room. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did the cardiounit disturb you at all other than just a -slight tingling sensation? - -Mr. RUBY. In this arm here [indicating left arm]? - -Mr. HERNDON. Did that bother you before the series No. 1 group? - -Mr. RUBY. No; that’s fine. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, you are now a veteran of the first series. You -did real well. You cooperated very fine. - -Now, we will proceed with series No. 2. I want to go over these -questions with you so that you and I understand precisely and perfectly -what they mean. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, in this series of questions, I am going to ask as one -of the ones which is pertinent in this investigation, “Are you now a -member of the Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. You don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to now, -but I’m going to ask you that question, sir. - -Mr. RUBY. OK. - -Mr. HERNDON. You understand what I mean by that—that’s about as short -and sweet as we can get it. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you, “Have you ever been a member of the -Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. You understand the difference—one is now and one is—have -been perhaps sometimes in your youth or life—if you were affiliated -with the Communist Party. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I understand. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question, Mr. Ruby: “Are you -now a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the -United States Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you understand that question? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask: “Have you ever been a member of any -group that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States -Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. It’s very similar, only it’s in the past tense. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, on those two questions—we can’t go through all -of those groups which advocate the overthrow of the United States -Government, so we are generalizing with respect to them. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have indicated you understand them? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and my answer is “No—no collaborating.” - -Mr. SPECTER. I don’t think it is necessary to elaborate on that. - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, in addition to those questions, I’m going to -ask you a relatively simple question as this, that you should be able -to answer “Yes” or “No.” “Were you born in the United States?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in Chicago?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, this next question I’m going to ask you, you don’t -have to answer it now. You can discuss it with me later or you can wait -and decide what you want to answer to it. “Did you ever make a false -official statement?” - -Now, that’s a general question and I realize that, Mr. Ruby, and when -I ask that question, obviously your mind probably went back to many -things. We make a lot of official statements. Now, I’m asking that -question in its broadest terms. In other words, to your recollection, -have you ever made a false official statement? - -Mr. RUBY. When you say “official”—for instance, in order to have a -job years ago—I want to explain this to you. In order to work in -a department store, I had to use another name because this other -person would be the right age that I could work, but outside of that, -officials—to any authorities—I haven’t. - -Mr. HERNDON. Obviously, this department store thing came to your mind -when I asked that question? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, sir, I’m glad you brought that out so I will have an -understanding that that was in your mind. What I mean here, however, -is something more in the nature of an application for a license, -an application for a permit, an application for insurance—anything -that would come within the jurisdiction of being somewhat a legal or -semilegal form or application? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure you understand what I mean by that -question. - -Then, I’ll probably ask, I understand you were born in 1911, is that -correct? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. These are questions of identity—“Were you born in 1911?” - -Now, let me see, gentlemen, if we have gone over all the questions. I -have gone over all the questions with Mr. Ruby that I’m going to ask -for this next series. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, prior to the administration of the second -series, Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now leaving the room again. - -May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now -departed from the room. - -(Reporter’s note: 3:20 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just relax. Can I get you a drink of water -or anything, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I’m perfectly all right. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, very fine. Once again, if you will try to -refrain from moving, simply look straight again, and sit perfectly -still and answer the questions “Yes” or “No.” I again will tell you -when I am going to begin, Mr. Ruby. - -Now, are you relaxed? Are you OK? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. How does your arm feel? I noticed you had a little bit of -pressure there around the cuff. Is the circulation all right? - -Mr. RUBY. Fine. - -Mr. HERNDON. You feel fine? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. It will take me a moment again here to get the instrument -adjusted. Before I put any pressure on the cuff, Mr. Ruby, I’m going -to just tighten this up just slightly, do you want to move up just a -moment? Does that bind you in any way or is it too tight [checking tube -around Mr. Ruby’s chest]? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just lean back relax. All right, sir. Now, -we’re getting a better tracing. All right, I am going to now put a -little pressure on and I will tell you when I am going to begin. - -(Reporter’s note: 3:23 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m checking this just so you can raise and lower -your arm and keep relaxed. Look straight ahead, Mr. Ruby. - -(Reporter’s note: 3:25 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. I will now begin. - -“Were you born in the United States?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in Chicago?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Are you now a member of the Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been known by another name?” - -Don’t answer that question. I didn’t review it before. Skip it. Just -sit and relax. - -“Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever make a false official statement?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Are you now a member of any group that advocates the -violent overthrow of the United States Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been a member of any group that advocates -violent overthrow of the United States Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in 1911?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. That concludes that series. Just sit still for a moment, -sir. - -All right, you may now move your arm and relax, Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -(Reporter’s note: 3:27 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. There was one irrelevant question that I failed to mention -here. We will discuss that in a moment, and that is, “Have you ever -been known by another name?” - -You might want to mention that to the gentlemen, as a matter of record. -I told him to refrain from answering it. It’s really not that pertinent. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine, we will bring it to their attention. - -Mr. HERNDON. But, as long as I did ask it, if you want, I’d like him to -answer it before the other gentlemen come in. - -Mr. SPECTER. I think that’s all right. - -Mr. RUBY. Have I ever had it changed legally, is that what you meant? - -Mr. HERNDON. In other words, when I asked you that question, I realized -I hadn’t gone over it. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s all right. - -Mr. HERNDON. Therefore—I know you hesitated to answer it. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I have two names—my name was Rubenstein and was changed -to Ruby. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s what came to your mind, the fact that you actually -had your name changed? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. We are now between series Nos. 2 and 3? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. How many series do I have now? - -Mr. HERNDON. I don’t know quite yet, Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill -are back in the room. - -Gentlemen, there was one question which Mr. Herndon did not go over -in advance and that was, “Was Mr. Ruby ever known by any other name?” -Since he did ask it, but since it was obvious as soon as he had asked -it that he had not gone over it, he asked Mr. Ruby not to answer it, -and when the series was over, he asked Mr. Ruby the question again and -Mr. Ruby said that he had been known previously as “Jack Rubenstein” -and had legally changed his name. With that one variation, all the -questions asked during that series were identical with those discussed -before you left the room. - -Mr. HERNDON. My apologies, gentlemen, but it was an irrelevant question. - -Mr. Ruby, we shall now proceed to what we call series No. 3. Here again -these questions are going to be intermixed, some rather pertinent to -what we’re interested in here, others general questions. Let me go over -the relevant questions, first, Mr. Ruby. - -“Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody you know tell -you they knew Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you understand, Mr. Ruby, when he says “the -shooting,” that means the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. RUBY. Repeat that over again—let me hear it again. - -Mr. HERNDON. I think you realized that, but I want to make certain -that you understand, and I want to go back and break down that -question—between the assassination of President Kennedy and the -shooting—now, the shooting I mean is the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes—yes—the answer is “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. I realize you understood the question, but the shooting -in some other person’s mind could be many things. I want to keep these -sentences as concise and short as possible. - -“Did anybody you know tell you they knew Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you understand the question, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting -Oswald before you did it?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Is that question all right, do you understand it? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes—I take that back. Sunday morning—I want to elaborate on -that—before I left my apartment—it evidently didn’t register with the -person because of the way I said it. In other words, the whole basis -of this whole thing was that Mrs. Kennedy would have to come back for -trial. - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me ask you at this time—excuse my interruption, -but why don’t you just address yourself to the general questions that -are asked you. I think it’s all right. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. FOWLER. I don’t think it will help the Commission, and this may be -in the form of a question later on, but just confine your answer to -“Yes” or “No.” - -Mr. RUBY. Well, the thing is this—I have to answer—ask me the question -again. - -Mr. HERNDON. Let’s go over it once more, Mr. Ruby, and I want you to be -able to be in a position that you can freely, honestly, and truthfully -answer it simply “Yes” or “No.” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, if there’s something in here in this area that -troubles you, we can rephrase the question. - -Mr. RUBY. Will you specify the time—the time element is very important. - -Mr. HERNDON. The only time element is before—before you did it. Now, -“before” is a very broad coverage? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s it. That’s a difficult question to answer. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s the way the question is worded. Let me ask it again -and see if you want to discuss it. “Did you tell anyone that you were -thinking of shooting Oswald before you did it?” - -Mr. RUBY [no response]. - -Mr. HERNDON. If you want me to reword that question, I’ll take it up -with Mr. Specter. - -Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you say this—“that Sunday morning, specifically?” -That would be easier for me to answer. - -Mr. HERNDON. In other words, “Did you tell anyone you were thinking of -shooting Oswald on Sunday morning?” - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, again, excuse me, sir. - -Mr. RUBY. Fowler, it puts me in a tough spot when he asks me that -question and I evade it. - -Mr. FOWLER. I understand this, but I’m talking now specifically about -in the presence of Mr. Alexander. Now, later on, if you want to answer -it “Yes” or “No” to that question, it’s perfectly all right. I want you -to fully understand the question. - -Mr. HERNDON. I want to bow, of course, to Mr. Specter, of course, for -the way the Commission desires it. - -Mr. SPECTER. If you would like us to break it down, we could do it in -two questions. “Did you tell anybody on Sunday morning that you were -going to shoot Oswald before you did it?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, that’s easier to answer. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, we can ask you this: “Before Sunday morning did you -tell anybody you intended to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Now, that’s a better way to ask it—the last question. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, we’ve covered all the time in two parts. - -Mr. RUBY. The last question you asked me is a better way to ask me. The -last question you asked, my answer is “No.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, we’ll want to ask you a followup question. - -Mr. RUBY. Do you understand what I’m saying—did you understand what I -said? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I understand what you’re saying, but we will want to -ask you for the purpose of the test, “On Sunday morning did you tell -anybody that you intended to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. All right. I’ll answer it. - -Mr. HERNDON. If I could get the court reporter to read back how you -phrased that question, so that we could both agree on it. - -COURT REPORTER. “On Sunday morning did you tell anybody that you -intended to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. SPECTER. There are two questions. “Before Sunday morning, did -you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?” That’s all right for -one question. Now, write this one down, Mr. Herndon. The question is -“Before Sunday morning did you tell anyone that you intended to shoot -Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Now, before Sunday morning means any time element beyond the -time I left my apartment. Is that what you’re referring to when you say -Sunday morning? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, I’ll even change that and I’ll say “Before you left -your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to -shoot Oswald?” - -Now, the following question will be: “From the time you left your -apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot -Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Now, you better rephrase that. I hadn’t already left the -apartment. Do you follow me? - -Mr. SPECTER. Right. Well, I see what you’re driving at—you’re driving -at the time. - -Mr. RUBY. The time element is very important. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, we can make it in three parts: “While you were -at your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended -to shoot Oswald?” - -Now, we’ve broken it up three ways. That would really be covered, Mr. -Ruby, in the first part: “Before you left your apartment on Sunday -morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Now, you’ve got to get another question in there: “Previous -to your arising that morning, have you told anyone you’re going to -shoot Oswald?” You see my point? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; before you awakened, in other words? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. “Before you awakened on Sunday morning, had you told -anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Before I awakened. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I don’t want to leave any area of -questionableness here or ambiguity—of course, you didn’t say in your -sleep this, so perhaps we ought to phrase it “Before you went to bed on -Saturday night or early Sunday morning did you tell anyone you intended -to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right. - -Mr. HERNDON. Would you repeat that, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. “Before you went to bed——” - -What time did you go to bed that night? - -Mr. RUBY. At 1:15 or 1:30, but you must put it specifically—also, -whether I received any phone calls from the time I went to bed and the -time I arose. Do you follow me? In other words, I could clear myself by -answering that question truthfully, but I could have received a phone -call in between the time I went to bed and the time I awakened. - -Mr. HERNDON. So, the area we’re trying to cover here, Mr. Ruby, as I -see it is—if you did tell anyone you were thinking of doing this—the -approximate time. - -Is that what we’re getting at, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, we can phrase that in several different ways. If your -recollection is that good that you specifically recall an incident, you -can tell me how you want me to ask it. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. May I make a suggestion? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Ask it, “Did you tell someone by telephone you intended -to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Plus the fact that I think it should be included, “Did I talk -to anyone before going to bed?” - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter? - -Mr. FOWLER. Now, we will certainly object to a question being framed by -this attorney. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, do I understand your position correctly, that -you are concerned about the disclosure of this information in the -presence of Mr. Alexander? - -Mr. FOWLER. I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. But, do you have any concern about disclosing the answer -to this question to the Commission? - -Mr. FOWLER. None whatsoever. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, would it be agreeable with you if Mr. Alexander -leaves while this question is being formulated so we can understand it, -and then that he comes back when we have formulated it? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack knows that I know the answer to it, so there’s no -use in anybody getting upset about it. - -Mr. RUBY. Are you sure you know the answer to it? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. I think so, Jack. - -Mr. FOWLER. It would be preferable if he would leave. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have any objection to stepping out -just while we formulate this question? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Not at all, not at all. Come on Joe. - -Mr. TONAHILL. I don’t have to go. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander has now departed, may the record show. - -All right, Mr. Ruby, we want to phrase the question in accordance with -polygraph procedure in a way that gets to the point, as you see the -point. So, tell us exactly what you have in mind here. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, you had better remind me again. - -Mr. HERNDON. Here’s the area we’re trying to cover. Here’s the question -I originally asked you which created all this problem. “Between the -assassination and the shooting”—now, let me start that again—“Did you -tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting Oswald before you did?” - -Now, I tried to put that as plainly as I could. I’m not interested here -in the area of when—— - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, but if you’re speaking in the area of when, it’s pretty -incriminating. It’s a long premeditation, then, of time element. - -Mr. HERNDON. I think the Commission here has its question of whether or -not you did tell anybody? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, if you have no objection to answering that -question, we would like you to do so now for purposes of giving us -information, and then we will test you in just a minute as we go -through with the polygraph, if you’re willing to answer that question? - -Mr. RUBY. Clayton? - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me say this—now, this is the very crux of your -case. In other words, if there is premeditation on your part to -murder or to kill, this can and will be used against you, and this -information—let’s project it a little bit and say that you do get a new -trial, and that between now and that the Warren Commission releases -their information for public consumption or to the district attorney’s -office or to anybody else, then, if your answer to these questions -might be “Yes,” then it would be most difficult to appear and defend -you. - -Mr. RUBY. Clayton, I’m here to tell the truth. I don’t know how the -heck to answer it. I appreciate you’re in a tough spot. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, as you can readily see, this is why we -advised you not to take this. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s why I want it, because I know what’s best for me. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, I don’t think you do, Jack. - -Mr. RUBY. Can I overrule you, Clayton, where you won’t be too angry if -I overrule you? - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, I have no—I’m not going to put a cob in your mouth, -Jack. - -Mr. RUBY. Can I ask one more favor of you? - -Mr. FOWLER. Sure. - -Mr. RUBY. Will you let those two gentlemen back in the room, at your -request? - -Mr. FOWLER. Not at my request; no, sir. - -Mr. RUBY. Please, Clayton? - -Mr. FOWLER. If you leave that up to me, I say, “No.” - -Mr. RUBY. All right, I’m going to answer your question. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, why don’t I just go over with you once again all -of them, for this series of questions. - -Mr. SPECTER. At this time, I would like to ask Mr. Ruby if he is -willing to answer the question about the conversations. I would like to -develop the information about the conversations so that we will know -it is factual. This would be an extended question of the nature that -the Chief Justice asked you on June 7—if you’re willing to answer my -question to you at this time, which is: “Did you tell anybody that you -intended to shoot Oswald at any time before you did it?” And, I would -follow that up, if you answer that question, with, “Whom did you tell -and when?” With that information, we can then formulate these questions -for the lie detector test to see if you’re telling the truth. - -Mr. RUBY. Clayton, please? I’ve got to do this? I’ve got to, because I -told it to the Warren Commission. - -Mr. FOWLER. In other words, these questions have already been talked -about? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and will you ask them to come in? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, I don’t know that they have. I have reviewed -the transcript, but I don’t know that we’ve asked these before, but he -answered everything that was asked of him in the last session. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was very voluntary. - -Mr. SPECTER. We deliberately didn’t go into some areas, suffice it to -say, for certain purposes. But this is the question we’re concerned -with at the moment, and we would like an answer substantively, in -addition to testing his truthfulness. It comes to a head when we try -to formulate the questions for the polygraph, because we really have -to get the underlying facts, and then we can point our efforts to see -whether he’s telling the truth according to the indicators from the -examination. - -Mr. FOWLER. Again, I don’t believe certainly he understands the full -complicity of this thing. If there are any questions that are asked -that show premeditation on his part, I would respectfully ask that he -decline to answer and that you decline to ask it. - -Mr. RUBY. But it’s already in there. I’ve already told it to the Warren -Commission. - -Mr. FOWLER. Now, if there is an area that has been covered already and -you still wish to go into it—I don’t want this man—— - -Mr. RUBY. So, would you mind calling Alexander in? - -Mr. FOWLER. Listen, Jack, will you please listen to me? This man got up -down there and asked the jury to send you to the electric chair. - -Mr. RUBY. I know it. - -Mr. FOWLER. He has not changed his opinion yet, and he will again -ask it at some later date. Now, is this the kind of man you want to -pussyfoot around in here with and let listen to these questions? Just -“Yes” or “No”—if it is—we’ll bring him back in. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes: I want him in here, and I want you to ask him to come -in, please. - -Mr. FOWLER. I won’t ask him to come in. - -Mr. RUBY. Joe, ask him to come in. - -Mr. TONAHILL. No; Clayton is your chief counsel and I’m going to -respect his desires. - -Mr. RUBY. Chief—I know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, I will ask him to come in, Mr. Ruby. I’m willing to -bring him back, if that’s your request. - -Mr. FOWLER. I would like this record to reflect that this is against -the advice of his attorneys present, and that it will be very -detrimental to, No. 1, his appeal, and No. 2, perhaps to any clemency -that might be asked for in the future, and No. 3, for the actual trial -of the case on the merits, if such ever occurs. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, the Commission can proceed and conduct this -test and not bring him back. I want you to be clear on that point, -that these men do not have to be here for the purposes of getting this -information for the Commission, so we will know all the facts, or for -the purposes of conducting this test. So, it’s really extraneous. It -doesn’t really matter for them to be in here for the tests. - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, why do you want them back? - -Mr. RUBY. Because I happen to know what I’m talking about. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Now, Jack—— - -Mr. RUBY. Joe, you’re not my attorney any more. We know it. We -understand one another, please. You’re not helping me. - -Mr. FOWLER. Let’s just direct our attention right now, Jack, to the -things that are near to you. Why do you want Mr. Alexander here? - -Mr. RUBY. I feel I don’t want him to think I’m holding out on anything. -I don’t want him to have any idea that I’m reluctant to answer things -in front of him, believe me. - -Mr. FOWLER. Listen, at some future date—yes. Perhaps in a trial, -another trial, yes. When you are on the witness stand, if you are able -to go to the witness stand, perhaps these questions will be directed -to you at that time, and you can make a full disclosure before a jury, -but I respectfully request that you do not do it in the presence of a -district attorney. - -Mr. RUBY. But Clayton, they know all these questions already. Henry -Wade, I spoke to, and I told him all this. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, if he knows them already, then why not just let him -stay out? You’re not trying to impress him, are you? Do you think that -he can do anything to help you right now? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; but the thing is that I have a few other thoughts in -mind, as you well know about. - -Mr. FOWLER. What are they, Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. That I spoke to you about for your consideration. - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, I’m not worried, I’m not concerned about anybody -trying to do away with me. This is the least of my worries. Nobody has -threatened me about this thing. Nobody has coerced me in any way. - -Mr. RUBY. I want harmony, that’s what I want. I want harmony with you -and the district attorney’s office. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, we can’t harmonize over your situation, I’m sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, the point we got to was the question of getting the -substantive information out before going on with the test. Did you -tell anyone that you intended to shoot Oswald? - -Mr. HERNDON. You mean—before? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, I don’t know if we’re going to get an answer to it -or not. - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, now the question that is being directed to you at -this time—well, go right ahead. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes: Sunday morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you tell? - -Mr. RUBY. George Senator. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where were you at the time you discussed it with him? - -Mr. RUBY. In my apartment. - -Mr. SPECTER. And state in as precise words as you can remember, just -what you said to him and he said to you at that time? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, he didn’t say anything—the funny part—he was reading -the paper and I doubt if he even recalled me saying it. I have to -elaborate on it, but I was so carried away emotionally that I said—I -don’t know how I said it—I didn’t say it in any vulgar manner—I said, -“If something happened to this person, that then Mrs. Kennedy won’t -have to come back for the trial.” That’s all I said. Now, would you -mind asking me on that particular point? That happened Sunday morning. -That’s the only time any thought ever came to my mind, because that -morning I read some articles in the newspaper that she would have to -come back to trial. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever say to anybody, “I am going to shoot Oswald,” -or anything to the effect that, “I am going to shoot or kill him”? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I just made the statement—that’s the only thing I said. - -Mr. SPECTER. That statement you made to George Senator, that’s the only -thing, that’s the closest you came to saying it? - -Mr. RUBY. That Sunday morning before I left my apartment. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever tell Randolph Paul you were going to shoot -him? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t even know a Randolph Paul. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about Breck Wall? - -Mr. RUBY. I know I never said that to Breck Wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps the name was Ralph Paul. Did you ever say it to -Ralph Paul? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, let’s prepare the question this way, if we may, Mr. -Herndon: “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever -tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is that formulation acceptable for purposes of the -test, Mr. Herndon? - -Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure I get it correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you -ever tell anyone else you intended to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. In the flippant way I said it, I doubt if he’d even—you -know—the poor guy may not even have remembered it. We never discussed -it after that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the exact time you recollect you said that to him? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—it was about 10:15 Sunday morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, you know—10 minutes either way. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Fowler, we will phrase the question in that -way, but that phraseology of the question carries certain implications -which you understand. - -Mr. RUBY. May I repeat that question once more to make sure it’s -accurate? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander can come back in. - -(Mr. Alexander at this time entered the room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. We have now formulated the question, Mr. Alexander, and -Mr. Herndon will now read it, together with the other questions he -intends to ask in this series. - -Mr. HERNDON. The question is, “Aside from anything you said to George -Senator, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot -Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. That will be one of the questions on the next series. - -Mr. Specter, do you want that to be in lieu of this one or in addition -to this question? - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s ask it in lieu of that question. Strike the other -question, the original question. - -Mr. HERNDON. Strike the original question that commences, “Did you tell -anyone you were thinking about”? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that’s the one we’ve been talking about. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Is this still series 3? - -Mr. HERNDON. We’re still on series 3. Mr. Alexander. As a matter of -fact, if it’s all right with you gentleman, I’d like to start right -over again on series 3. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have that one area resolved. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you as we said originally—before—back in -the testimony. “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody -you know tell you they knew Oswald?” - -Then, the other relative or pertinent question here will be, “Aside -from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever tell anyone else -that you intended to shoot Oswald?” - -And, in addition to those questions, I will ask on this series the -following questions—— - -Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you add—in—let’s get the time element in there, -too, because that was Sunday morning. - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, I don’t want to make these questions too long. - -Mr. RUBY. I know, but I want this because somebody might think that I -mentioned it 2 days prior to that. - -Mr. SPECTER. We can add if you want to. “Aside from anything you said -to George Senator on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that -you intended to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. OK. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, we’re going to insert after “George -Senator”—“on Sunday morning.” Here again, the Sunday morning being that -time after you woke up and prior to noon. - -Mr. RUBY. Remember, it was the flippant way I said it that I doubt if -the poor soul remembered it. - -Mr. HERNDON. The other questions in this series will be as follows, -Mr. Ruby. Here again are some of the irrelevant questions. “Is your -last name Ruby? Do you live in Dallas?” I’m going to ask you “Are you -married?” Just for the record, I understand you’re single, so you could -answer that “No.” “Were you in the military service?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question: “While in service,” -and I mean the military service, “did you receive any disciplinary -action?” Do you understand that question? - -Mr. RUBY. In other words, “While you were in the military, were you -hurt?” - -Mr. HERNDON. No; Mr. Ruby, disciplinary action. Were you -court-martialed, captains’ mast, or any disciplinary action? - -Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever. - -Mr. HERNDON. There’s one other relevant question I want to ask on this -series and I put it as simply as I can. “Did you shoot Oswald in order -to silence him?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. One other question: “Have you ever served time in jail?” -Now, what I mean by that question, Mr. Ruby, is not this present -custody but any other time. “Did you ever actually serve time in jail?” - -Mr. RUBY. I have served 30 days—I mean—that would answer it. - -Mr. HERNDON. Then, you can answer that? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. If that comes to mind, you could say, “Yes.” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, let me make sure we’ve gone over these questions. Do -you feel all right, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, we will proceed. - -Mr. RUBY. That 30 days embarrasses me, because it was with reference to -selling some song sheets back in the old depression days, and it wasn’t -for anything criminal. It was something that I didn’t realize at the -time there were copyrights on those songs. So, I don’t want to become a -felon just because—outside of what I am now. - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, these questions, I don’t mean to embarrass you, -Mr. Ruby. I want to ask these questions because they’re going to help -me later on, and I want to get some of these other questions on your -background. Was that in Chicago? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. When you explained about the song sheets? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I made a pretty good living at that time. - -Mr. HERNDON. You still recall that and it embarrasses you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I will be ready to start series 3 in a moment. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, if Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill will leave -the room, we will proceed with series 3. - -May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now absent. - -(Reporter’s note: 3:58 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Of course, we have been moving around and talking, -Mr. Ruby, I’m going to make a few minor adjustments here. Are you -comfortable, sir? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m going to put this up a little higher on your -chest, and I want you to lean back and relax. Do you want to put your -feet flat on the floor during the test, if you will. - -All right. I again will tell you when we actually start the test. I’m -going to put a little pressure on the arm, and once again, on these -questions, if you will answer them simply “Yes” or “No” truthfully. -Will you look straight ahead, please, sir. - -(Reporter’s note: 3:59 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin. Look straight ahead, Mr. Ruby. - -“Is your last name Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you live in Dallas?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody -you know tell you they knew Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Are you married?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator on Sunday -morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot -Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the military service?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “While in service did you receive any disciplinary action?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever served time in jail?” - -Mr. RUBY (no response). - -Mr. HERNDON. The test is over. Sit still for a moment and we will -release the pressure on your arm. - -Do you feel a little better when I release that pressure? - -Mr. RUBY. When you elaborate on “serving time”, 30 days isn’t serving -time. - -Mr. HERNDON. I was going to ask you to explain that, and you followed -instructions explicitly there. - -Then, actually in explanation to that, this 30 days to you were -insignificant? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, yes, but I explained that. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s all right. I have to ask these questions. - -Mr. RUBY. To serve time is when you refer to a man being in the -penitentiary. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, there are a few questions I want to ask him with -regard to that series. - -Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead. - -Mr. HERNDON. Just two points I want to clarify for my own use here. - -Mr. Ruby, I asked you. “Are you married?” and you replied “No.” Could -you tell me if anything went on in your mind at the time you responded -“No”? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was thinking of the young girl, that had I been -married I wouldn’t have been in this trouble. I guess that’s what -flashed back in my mind. - -Mr. HERNDON. Is this a former sweetheart? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. What else? - -Mr. HERNDON. I just wanted to get your explanation at that particular -point? - -Mr. RUBY. You noticed something there? - -Mr. HERNDON. Did you feel anything? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I knew I wasn’t—something was working on me when you -asked me that. I would probably have been living in another part of the -city, and I wouldn’t have been involved in this. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you recall the girl’s name? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes—Alice Nichols. - -Mr. HERNDON. And how long ago was this that you were acquainted with -her? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, for many years, and I guess we severed relations in -1959—“relations”—I meant our company. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s the last time you were dating? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; we were engaged and so on. - -Mr. HERNDON. You never actually married this young lady? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. That’s why you see me in a moment of despair—like I -am. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did you ever consider marrying her? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, that clarifies that question for me. One other -area I’d like you to speak frankly and freely on, and here again it -gets back to this military service. I asked you, “While in the military -service, did you ever receive any disciplinary action?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did you ever get in any trouble at all while you were in -the service that came to your mind during that question? - -Mr. RUBY. When you say “trouble”? - -Mr. HERNDON. Disciplinary action for trouble? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I have never been called down for anything. I may have -had a brawl with another soldier. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did you while you were in the service ever have a fight? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; but when you speak of “disciplinary” is when you go -before a court-martial or the colonel calls you in or something happens. - -Mr. HERNDON. Were you called in before the commanding officer? - -Mr. RUBY. Sure; but it’s not important enough to answer. Evidently, -you’re getting a pretty good reading? - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m having no technical difficulty with regard to giving -the test. - -Mr. RUBY. I wish you would prove to my chief here, over there, how I -stand with you (referring to Mr. Holman). - -Mr. HERNDON. I want to study these very carefully, of course, but you -have been very cooperative, as far as running the actual examination. -That will complete series 3. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine, I will call the gentlemen in. - -Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned. - -Mr. HERNDON. We will go on to another series now. I am going to run a -little different type of examination, Mr. Ruby, if you still feel like -you want to continue. Do you want to take a break? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, I want to go on completely. - -Mr. HERNDON. You are not tired? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. This next one will be relatively short, and it won’t take -too long. - -I’m going to ask you these questions somewhat in sequence and in -consecutive order. There are five of them. They can be answered simply -by “yes” or “no.” - -“Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday morning?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. And last, I’ll ask you, “Have you answered all questions -truthfully?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. In addition to those questions I’ve just asked, I’m going -to ask, again to establish identity, “Is your first name Jack?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I will ask you of those questions that I have just related -to you, those pertinent five questions in consecutive order, with -considerable spacing and time between—I believe you understand what I -mean by Friday night? - -Mr. RUBY. Definitely—the period of meditation. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s right—in the evening after 6 o’clock, and Saturday -morning we consider as being that time from when you wake up until you -have lunch, and I think you understand these questions. - -Mr. RUBY. Also, is there any way you can ask me if my family had known -of my doing anything like that? - -Mr. HERNDON. We may possibly get into that area or perhaps take that up -with Mr. Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, actually, Mr. Ruby, we have a great many questions -to ask you and there are certain limitations on the test. - -Mr. HERNDON. I am going to proceed on this particular series now. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are leaving the -room, and may the record show both have now departed. - -(Reporter’s note: 4.08 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Did you want to tell me something before, Mr. Ruby, before -I start? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Again, I will tell you when the test begins. - -Will you let the record show that I have these designated as series 3a. - -All right, do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Sit perfectly still and try to concentrate and look -straight ahead and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” - -I now put some pressure on that arm cuff. - -The test will now begin. - -(Reporter’s note: 4:10 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is your first name Jack?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday morning?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday night?” - -Mr. Ruby. “No”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Sunday morning?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. The test is over. Will you sit still a moment. I will -release the pressure on your arms. You may now move your hands and get -the circulation back. - -(Reporter’s note: 4:12 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. I have no questions on that. - -Mr. Ruby came in here what time—originally? - -COURT REPORTER. My notes indicate around 2 p.m. - -Mr. HERNDON. How do you feel, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Fine. - -Mr. HERNDON. You’re not tired? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, you are perfectly relaxed? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. As long as Mr. Ruby feels fine, I think we can continue -and we can prepare the exact wording for the next series. - -You may wish to bring the other gentlemen in. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, thank you. - -Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have returned -to the room. - -(Conference off the record between Messrs. Specter and Herndon -regarding formulation of questions.) - -Mr. RUBY. Joe? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, Jack. - -(Conference between Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Ruby from 4:13 to 4:15 p.m., -out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.) - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, you are a good man. - -Mr. RUBY. Who, Bill? - -(Conference between Mr. Alexander and Mr. Ruby from 4:15 to 4:18 p.m., -out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Holman, what time do you feed Mr. Ruby? What time do -you start the evening meal? - -The JAILER. Well, we begin about 4:30 p.m. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you hungry. Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. No, I’m feeling fine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, let’s go ahead with this series of questions and -then we will take about a 20-minute break. - -(Conference between Mr. Alexander and Mr. Ruby from 4:22 to 4:25 p.m., -out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, we are ready to go on to the next series of -questions. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right, Mr. Ruby, at this time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. We will now go to the first question of this next series, -Mr. Ruby, and I will ask you these questions. I want to make sure you -have a clear understanding of what they mean. - -“Were you in the Dallas Police Department jail basement at the time -Lieutenant Pierce’s car drove out of the basement?” - -Now, I see you are hesitating on that—I can rephrase it if you so like? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, no. - -Mr. HERNDON. Let me go over it again, to make sure the question will be -clear to you. - -“Were you in the Dallas Police Department jail at the time Lieutenant -Pierce’s car drove out of the basement?” - -Mr. RUBY. If I can explain it—if I can elaborate on it, it will be easy -to answer. - -Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead now, if it’s all right with your counsel, so we -can focus in on what concerns you. - -Mr. HERNDON. Perhaps I might want to ask that other question first and -he would find he might not have as much of a problem if I asked it -first. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, I prefer to stay with what we have now. I think we -can. If it’s all right to have him explain it, if it’s all right with -his attorney, I’d rather stay with that. - -Mr. RUBY. I’ve already told it to the Warren Commission? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Well, go ahead. - -Mr. RUBY. As I left the Western Union, I walked toward the ramp, and as -I walked down, Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked already on the curb, -partly on the curb and partly some of it was on the ramp, and some -officer was talking to him, so consequently—I don’t know how to answer -that—whether I was in the basement—when his car had driven out? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you walk by his car? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the same time it was parked there? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that the officer did not see you—— - -Mr. RUBY. That’s correct. - -Mr. SPECTER (continuing). Because the car was parked there? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and his back was turned to me. - -Mr. SPECTER. To state it differently, did the presence of the -automobile and the fact that he was talking to Lieutenant Pierce -obscure the vision of the officer who was on duty guarding that -entrance or exit? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I walked down because I didn’t know they were -guarding it—that there was anything going on there, you know? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, with that question, I can see his area of conflict -here. - -Mr. TONAHILL. What you want to know is was he in the basement, but he -was out on the sidewalk. I think that’s a straight question. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Were you in the basement or were you on the sidewalk -when Lieutenant Pierce’s car came out?” How about that? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I will revise that one question and break it down. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, that’s a very good question. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, will this question create any problem -for you? “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s -car”—I had “drove out,” but was he driving out or was he parked there? - -Mr. RUBY. When I noticed him he was already—he was stationary. He was -parked. He had stalled there or something. - -Mr. SPECTER. “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s -car stopped in front of the guard at the exit?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. Why do you say “stopped at the exit?” - -Mr. TONAHILL. At the ramp exit. - -Mr. HERNDON. “The ramp exit”—that makes it specific. - -Mr. Ruby, your question will then be, “Were you on the sidewalk at the -time Lieutenant Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Or, would you prefer “at the ramp exit?” - -Mr. RUBY. That’s okay. - -Mr. HERNDON. Let’s leave it “on the ramp exit.” - -Another question I will ask, “Did you enter the jail by walking through -an alleyway?” - -Mr. RUBY. What do you call an alleyway—a ramp? - -Mr. TONAHILL. It’s a ramp, it isn’t an alley. It goes under the -building and comes out. - -Mr. SPECTER. That’s all right, we’ll stand on that. - -Mr. HERNDON. You will stand on that question, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you can answer that as you want to? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Now, if he says “No”—— - -Mr. ALEXANDER. It isn’t an alley, now, it’s a ramp. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me specify here—is there another entrance to the jail -that you have to go through an alleyway? - -Mr. RUBY. There’s another—the Commerce Street entrance, and there’s two -entrances, and there’s ways of coming through, I imagine, from the—— - -Mr. TONAHILL. But it’s a driveway, is what it is, going down. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. There’s nothing in the sense that you’re thinking of—you -could come from the building out where you could go down the ramp on -either side. - -Mr. TONAHILL. It’s all under the building, not the ramp. - -Mr. FOWLER. Actually, I think what he is thinking of is that there is -an alley too. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. It wouldn’t be accessible. - -Mr. FOWLER. It would make it very difficult to get down into the -basement from the alley. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. All right, if Jack knows we’re talking about “alley,” -as long as you distinguish between the alley and the ramp, so he can -answer your question. - -Mr. TONAHILL. He has always referred to it as a ramp. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s a ramp. - -Mr. SPECTER. By “alley,” we do not mean the ramp. We mean the entrance -into the building. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Now, you’ve got him squared away. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We want you to understand the question exactly. - -Mr. HERNDON. The question will stand as is. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Why don’t you read the question? - -Mr. HERNDON. Just leave the question as it is? - -Mr. SPECTER. Leave it as it is. - -Mr. HERNDON. The next question I’m going to ask, or one of the -questions I will ask will be, “Did you walk past the guard at the time -Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked on the exit?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. You said it was parked? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I think I’ll put it “on the ramp exit” so it’s perfectly -clear, and I will repeat the question. - -The question again, “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant -Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, the other questions here, “Did you talk with any -Dallas police officers on Sunday, November 24, prior to shooting -Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Other questions I intend to ask on this next series, Mr. -Ruby are: “Did you previously live in Chicago?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Are your parents alive?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. This next question, and you don’t have to answer it now. -You can answer it on the test. “Did you ever make a false insurance -claim?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. You are a man in business and you would probably have -insurance on perhaps your car, your personal life and your business? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I just wondered if you ever made a false insurance claim? - -Mr. RUBY. No—I see what you mean—No, I have it on an automobile. - -Mr. HERNDON. I put this question in here—I’m not sure, actually, but -“Do you still operate the Carousel Club?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. You don’t? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right. The questions will be: “Do you still operate -the Carousel Club? Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant -Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit? Did you previously live in -Chicago? Did you enter the jail by walking through an alleyway? Are -your parents alive? Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant -Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit? Did you ever make a false -insurance claim? Did you talk with any Dallas police officers on -Sunday, November 24, prior to the shooting of Oswald?” - -Do you understand all those questions and can you answer them clearly -and simply “Yes” or “No”? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Apparently this is series 5? - -Mr. SPECTER. We called the last series, series 3a. - -Mr. HERNDON. We will call this series 4, according to my records. Is -that in sequence, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I believe it is. - -Mr. HERNDON. I will proceed shortly then, gentlemen. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have now left the room. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, do you want to put both of your feet on the -floor for me, sir, and look straight ahead at the wall, and relax until -I get the instrument adjusted. - -(Reporter’s note: 4:35 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, I will now put some pressure on the arm cuff, -and I will tell you when I am going to start asking you questions, Mr. -Ruby. - -We will now begin. - -(Reporter’s note: 4:36 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you still operate the Carousel Club?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s -car stopped on the ramp exit?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you previously live in Chicago?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. Try to sit still, if you can. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the jail by walking through an alleyway?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Are your parents alive?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant -Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever make a false insurance claim?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you talk with any Dallas police officers on Sunday, -November 24, prior to the shooting of Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. If you will sit still for a moment, -Mr. Ruby. I will now release the pressure from your arms. - -Mr. RUBY. Am I acting a little nervous? - -Mr. HERNDON. A little, but I think you’re getting a little bit tired. -That’s quite all right. I notice a little motion, but I will certainly -take that into consideration when I evaluate and interpret these charts. - -(Reporter’s note: 4:40 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Is there any area of doubt at all in your mind about that -question where you were on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s -car stopped at the ramp exit? - -Mr. RUBY. I said I was on the sidewalk—I walked past. - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; did that question trouble you then? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. You were on the sidewalk? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I just wanted to clarify that. When I asked you, “Are your -parents alive?”, Mr. Ruby, have they been deceased for some time? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did that question bother you or trouble you at all? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know—I guess I’m nervous now—I don’t know just -why I said that. - -Mr. HERNDON. I have no further questions in that series. - -Mr. RUBY. Aren’t you going to ask me whether I knew anything as to -whether or not he was going to come down, or anything like that? - -Mr. HERNDON. We will have to prepare some more questions. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill -are now back in the room, and we are going to take a brief recess. - -Mr. HERNDON. You’ve done very well thus far, Mr. Ruby, as far as -cooperating on the examination. - -Mr. RUBY. OK. What happens now? - -Mr. HERNDON. We’re going to take a break and give you a little rest. -Now, if you will just lean forward and raise your arms, I will take -this equipment off of you. - -Mr. RUBY. I’m not hungry, jailer. - -Mr. HOLMAN. Do you want to go lie down? - -Mr. RUBY. We only have a 20-minute break. That’s all. - -Mr. HERNDON. Might I suggest to the jailer that you might like to sit -at another chair and change your position? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -(Reporter’s note: 4:45 p.m.) - -(The proceedings were in recess at this time from 4:45 p.m. to 6:25 -p.m.) - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show that it is 6:25 p.m. and that we -have adjourned for a period of 1 hour and 40 minutes, during which time -Mr. Ruby has had an opportunity to rest. Is that correct, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby has just asked me about the presence of reporters -downstairs, and would you get this in the record. Miss Oliver. Would -you repeat what you just said to me, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Are you going to make any announcement to them? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; and you asked me to speak freely about this matter? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. My view is that we should, in view of the circumstances, -as I have been told—there are a large number of reporters downstairs, -and I’ve discussed this with Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tonahill, and it’s our -joint view that there should be an announcement made that you have -requested a polygraph examination and that we have conducted one under -the auspices of the President’s Commission through the cooperation of -the Federal Bureau of Investigation, that there has been extensive -examination and the results, of course, cannot yet be known at this -date, but they are to be taken to Washington and studied for future -action by the Commission. - -Mr. RUBY. Let’s make it clear that Mr. Tonahill don’t represent me. -Joe, let’s have that understanding? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Clayton is going to make whatever announcement is made -for you, Jack. - -Mr. RUBY. Joe, let’s have that understanding, will you please, Joe? - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, we’ll have no difficulty with that, don’t worry about -that. - -Mr. SPECTER. The substance of what I just said was discussed by me with -Mr. Fowler and it is our thought that that would be an appropriate -statement to make at this particular time. That’s about as far as we -can go. Do you concur in the advisability of that? - -Mr. RUBY. Now, with reference to hedging on questions and so on, don’t -you think some comment should be made that I wasn’t reluctant in -answering any of the questions that were put to me? - -Mr. SPECTER. I think that would be a fair comment to make, if you want -that statement made? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. That there was cooperation. That he was cooperative. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that he was cooperative. - -Mr. RUBY. On all questions on anything and everything pertaining to -anything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, in view of your interest in that disclosure, I -think that would be appropriate to be made. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. That without reservation, he cooperated fully. - -Mr. RUBY. I wanted to be more specific, that I wanted to be asked. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, I said that initially. In other words, that it is at -your request that we had conducted this, so that it would be clear that -you took the lead in initiating this examination, which is the fact, -and we will state the fact or give you the credit in that direction, -just as it is the fact. - -Mr. RUBY. But the point I wanted to bring out was that I wanted -to specify that I also wanted to be asked any and all questions, -regardless of what might be subversive or whatever thoughts might be in -your mind. - -Bill, I think you can give these people certain questions and more -potent ones than they know, because you probably know a lot of things -that you have in your own mind that you’d like to have answered too? - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, Jack, let me say this for your purpose and for the -purpose of the Warren Commission. This is not a trial and really, Mr. -Alexander is here as an attorney just like I am. He’s representing the -State just as Mr. Tonahill and I are representing you. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, I can’t really think of anything that I’d like to -ask. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, let me get this clear. I notice that the pictures -brought out the fact that there are two sets of private boxes, close -together in the post office. Did you gentlemen know this? Which is -quite an insinuation. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, let’s ask the question, “Did you meet Oswald at -the post office at any time, as far as you know, until the next day?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes—and also they had a statement in there that I used the -box for purpose of mail orders and to do business with Mexico and Cuba. -That’s incorrect because I never did business with Mexico and Cuba. - -Now, these are things that you gentlemen don’t want to ask me, but Mr. -Alexander would know what to tell you about that. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. There is one question that ought to be asked. - -Mr. SPECTER. I want that, Bill. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any Cuban or foreign influence cause you to do any -act?” - -Mr. RUBY. Very good—very good. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Because there has been some question about maybe Jack -was motivated from Cuba and we ought to eliminate that and ask him a -question to give him a chance to eliminate it. - -Mr. RUBY. Also, I want to get the gun situation straightened out. You -know what I’m talking about—the Ray Brantley call. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. And the trip down to Cuba—I’m getting things confused now. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s let him write that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we have conferred with all parties here on the -substance of the questions to be asked. Naturally, we have limitations -in time and we can only ask them in a short series. We have conferred -with Mr. Fowler, we have conferred with Mr. Wade and with Mr. Alexander -here, and naturally also, the interest of the Commission is paramount, -and we are doing our very best not to interfere with the State criminal -proceedings. We do not wish to take sides at all nor to influence it -in any way. We want to accomplish the purpose of the Commission. Those -interests overlap to some extent because whenever we ask a Commission -question, it has collateral bearings on a great many things, but to -the extent that we can, we have conferred, as I say, with the defense -counsel and the representatives of the district attorney’s office in -arriving at the questions which have been asked, and I think we will -cover before this examination is concluded the important areas. Now, at -the end of it, if you feel that there is some other area that you would -like to have covered, we would be very willing to hear your request and -to accommodate you to the maximum extent possible consistent with the -policy of the Commission. - -Mr. RUBY. Mr. Alexander knows certain questions that he has in his mind -that haven’t come out and I think I know what he’s thinking about. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, Mr. Alexander has talked to me about some questions -that I’m sure he would prefer on the record and we have taken those -into account in formulating our questions. Isn’t that so, Mr. Alexander? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir. I think what Jack has in mind is that he wants -an opportunity to answer a question regarding any possible connection -with anything in Cuba. Also, he wants a question asked that will give -him an opportunity to explain that the gun which he asked Ray Brantley -to mail to McWillie in Las Vegas—— - -Mr. RUBY. Not to Vegas, to Cuba, and all I did was to receive a phone -call, and this was—I told this to the Warren Commission—and this was -during the time when we were very friendly together. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. That was in 1958. - -Mr. RUBY. All I did was relay the phone message to Ray Brantley, and he -said, “Oh, I know Mr. McWillie very well,” and following that I never -followed up or seen him. Now, this is incriminating for me because -all I did—like a tool—got myself involved by relating a message that -somebody else wanted. Now, this was during peacetime because he wanted -protection from the foreign element coming in. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack relayed the message that McWillie wanted a Smith & -Wesson or some kind of a .38. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. There wasn’t no money or anything in the deal. Ray -Brantley said, “Oh, I know McWillie. I’ve done business with him -constantly.” Following that—I never followed up on it a time, and -what he did—and this is incriminating against me very bad, but he -had the irony to do this—when I mentioned the fact that I did call -Ray Brantley, this man denied that I called him. That makes me a -liar to that extent, so I want that question put to me in reference -to Ray Brantley and all that and I want about my trip to Cuba and my -association with the underworld. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, the question of the gun with Ray Brantley was -covered in detail when the Chief Justice was here and we shall cover -that in the balance of the polygraph examination. - -Mr. RUBY. I also had numerous phone calls, long-distance calls, all -over the country and that was with relationship only to my nightclub -that I had trouble with the union. There was no conspiracy, but you’ll -go into that. - -Mr. SPECTER. You covered that also in your testimony before the -Commission. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; but that doesn’t prove anything. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Let me suggest one question there to ask him? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any telephone call you made have any connection, -however remote, with your shooting of Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. That will cover it. - -Mr. TONAHILL. How about asking him if he didn’t tell the Warren -Commission the truth several weeks ago in answering every question they -asked him? - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t elaborate enough with them and we didn’t go into -it enough, because I was telling a complete story. Yes; I’ll answer -that—certainly I will. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine; that will be asked of you. - -Mr. HERNDON. That will be somewhat all inclusive. - -Mr. SPECTER. We’ll have that for the very next series. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did you have any telephone conversation which related -in any way with the shooting of Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Also, ask me whether the phone calls were in reference to the -union trying to get somebody to help me with my club. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s make another question about that. “Did any union -or underworld connection have anything to do with the shooting of -Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Very good. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I will add those in and cover them to the maximum -extent possible, and I add that reservation because there are a great -many additional questions to be asked which we have already mapped out. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you want me to proceed with the usual preliminaries? - -Mr. RUBY. You don’t have to proceed with that. Why don’t you just call -them to me and I’ll answer them. You want to go through a formality—a -previous thing. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, he’s got to have a record. - -Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure you understand the question involved. - -Mr. RUBY. I’m sure I do. - -Mr. HERNDON. I feel in fairness to both of us, we have to do this. - -Mr. RUBY. Believe me—believe me, you don’t have to go through that -formality, if you want to save yourself a lot of time, and I think -you’ll like that better. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, he has to have a written question that’s keyed to -this tape. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I follow that, but he doesn’t have to go through the -preliminary explaining to me this because I’ll answer anything you want -“off the hook.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we appreciate your willingness to do that and -we’ll take you up on that to the fullest extent possible, but Mr. -Herndon has to do some preliminary questioning which is indispensable -to his evaluation. - -Mr. RUBY. All right, get him to minimize it if he can. - -Mr. SPECTER. He will bear that in mind and minimize it to the fullest -extent. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Then, these gentlemen actually will not be aware of the -questions, is that all right with you, I mean—prior to the time they -leave? I believe we discussed that previously and I did want to mention -it, that it would be so important when the questions would be asked. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Not to me, Jack. - -Mr. RUBY. I see—about your being aware of the question. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, you recall, previously—one of the reasons -I was going over all the questions before actually conducting the -examination was in order for these gentlemen that are in attendance to -be aware of what questions are going to be asked Mr. Ruby during the -actual polygraph examination. Now, if we dispense with that before we -go over these questions, if they leave the room, they do not know the -questions I’m going to ask him. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. I don’t think Jack has any objection to us staying here -at this time, do you, Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I certainly don’t. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, I still have the same objection, and -respectfully request again, Jack, that we’re not trying to hide -anything—don’t misunderstand me. - -Mr. RUBY. Just a minute—let me tell you something. I want to straighten -up some things. Whether he leaves the room or not, Mr. Alexander is -going to know everything that went on here, so please concede to it. - -Mr. FOWLER. Well, I’ll concede to this, that at sometime he will know, -but I’m saying this—that perhaps there might be something, Jack, that -might in some way be to your detriment if Mr. Alexander knew the answer -to the question at this time. Now, he may say “No,” but I still, as -your attorney and in trying to protect your rights, insist that it be -handled in this way, and I would certainly appreciate your cooperation -with me to that extent. - -Mr. RUBY. The only reason I want Mr. Alexander here, I want him to know -my effectiveness when I answer the questions. - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, that’s very well, and I don’t think he has any doubt -that you’re trying to hide it and all of that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, let us proceed as we have before, with Mr. Herndon -announcing the questions in advance but going through a minimum amount -of preliminaries so that he is satisfied that he can evaluate the -results. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And we will proceed on that basis. - -Mr. RUBY. You can run through them a lot faster and I’ll grasp them. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right; I will proceed in that manner and also with the -questions we have already set forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; and then we’ll supplement them to cover the -additional topics which have not yet been included. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, do you feel all right to continue -with this? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am ready. - -Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. I will hook this up and go over these questions -and I’ll just read them out to you and you just speak up if there is -one you want to rephrase. - -Mr. RUBY. Go ahead. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see the armored truck before you went to the -basement?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the police department through a door at the -rear on the east side of the jail?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “After talking to Little Lynn, did you hear any -announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning, did anyone -tell you the armored car was on the way to the police department?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Those are your main questions, and I will ask you some of -these other routine questions. - -Mr. RUBY. All right; go ahead. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any brothers?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any sisters?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, here’s a question I want to go over with you very -carefully. “Did you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right; I’ll give you an opportunity now to explain -that to me. This is for my purposes of the examination. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, in running a—in my business, when you get somebody -with a—it’s a very exciting business. One particular night a man -pulled a knife on me and I took a pistol and hit him on the head in -that altercation, and sometimes you get fellows with real bad rough -reputations. They’re real toughs. There’s no question about it, and -being in my type of business for a livelihood, the only way you can—of -course, I do call the law enforcement officers. At that particular -moment, it’s my life or theirs, and some of these men are pretty -powerful physically, and I fought in every way possible, with my fists -and everything else—but to minimize the various troubles I had, where -there would be an altercation or something come up, I’d tell them to -leave, and of course, something would happen and they would go from -here—whatever it is. It happened a few times where I would pummel a few -of these men. - -Mr. HERNDON. I understand, Mr. Ruby, but all of these incidents that -you recall are in connection with your operating this club? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; they are at the club. These boys are real bad boys and -they all have records, and they’re pretty tough guys. Will you agree -with something on that? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. That’s right. - -Mr. HERNDON. Then, on the actual test. I’m going to ask you this -question: “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone with -any kind of weapon?” - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t follow—“Other than what you’ve told me?” - -Mr. HERNDON. In other words, other than your being the owner of a -nightclub, which because of the type of customers you occasionally -have, you would have to use some force, perhaps hit a customer or hit -someone in your club? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Have you ever been involved in any other situation where -you actually struck at somebody with a weapon? “Weapon” here I’m -referring to as a gun, club, or knife or anything that would be other -than just a normal fist-fight. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that happened, but that was before I got in this -trouble. This man threatened to kill me and was going to go for his -gun, and I was nice enough to have him stay at my place and he was -causing a nuisance in the vicinity of the club, causing brawls and -all that and I tried to reprimand him, and a little boy of Italian -descent and very gracious, somehow he got very belligerent with me, -and I knew he had a car and he said, “I’m going to get my pistol,” and -there’s a funny reaction about that. Once they get you cowered to that -extent, then you’re doomed, and there’s a funny feeling, when I was -with him, that you have with them. So, I got my pistol and I cornered -him and I called him by his name and I called him a name, and I said, -“You’re going to kill me, you so-and-so?” Finally he said, “I was only -kidding, I was only kidding,” and there’s a certain reaction you have -and I can’t explain it. That’s the only time any crime of that sort has -ever happened outside of my business. - -Mr. HERNDON. Outside of your business? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HERNDON. Then, if I asked you whether or not you told me you ever -hit anyone with any kind of weapon, unless something else comes up to -your mind, you would answer that “Yes”? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, like if I was a goon or something. - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, a union goon. - -Mr. RUBY. A union goon. Right. I haven’t been a slugger or anything -like that. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, we can go along here Mr. Ruby, and I will hook -up the instrument. - -(Reporter’s note: 6:43 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Will you raise your arms, Mr. Ruby, please? Do you feel -comfortable? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, lean back. [Attached instruments to Mr. Ruby.] - -Mr. RUBY. Have I been evading any of your questions? - -Mr. HERNDON. You have been most cooperative—thus far no problems. - -Mr. RUBY. But you can’t tell how I stand, can you? - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, I will want to take a considerable amount of -time to review these charts very thoroughly before I come to any -conclusion. - -Mr. RUBY. How long would it take—how long will it take? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, I can’t answer that question with a definite answer. -It depends on what I may run into when I study these very carefully -back in Washington. - -Mr. RUBY. Bill, will I still be around when the answers come back? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. Raise your right hand and give him your word. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. That’s right. - -Mr. RUBY. Chief, you heard him, did you not, Chief? [Addressing the -Chief Jailer Holman.] You and I should live so long. - -Mr. HERNDON. Is that comfortable, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m not going to ask the questions at this time, I’m -just going to readjust the instruments. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Let’s go, Bill. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill -have left the room. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to cough, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. You want me to? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. - -(Mr. Ruby coughed at this time.) - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, are you about ready to begin with this one? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Once again, just repeating instructions, if you will -uncross your legs, sir, and put your feet flat on the floor and look -straight ahead and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” - -This will be series No. 5. I will let you know when the test will -begin. Is there a little pressure on the arm cuff? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, Mr. Ruby, look straight ahead. That’s fine. Now, just -look straight ahead and try not to move, and the test will begin. - -(Reporter’s note: 6:45 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see the armored car before it entered the -basement?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any brothers?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the police department through a door at the -rear on the east side of the jail?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any sisters?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “After talking to Little Lynn did you hear any -announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone -with any kind of weapon?” - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how to answer that. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, just sit still and relax, sir. - -Mr. RUBY. Ask me that again—I got the answer. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone -with any kind of weapon?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning, did anyone -tell you the armored car was on the way to the police department?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, that test is over. Just sit still for a moment, -and I will now release the pressure on your arm. You can move you left -arm and relax. - -(Reporter’s note: 6:50 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m sorry if I gave you any problem on that question. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, because it threw me off again. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, we’ll just go over it again as a matter of -record. I asked you there, “Other than what you’ve told me, did you -ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon,” and you explained that at two -different times and that once it was in the club with some people and -customers, and another time it was outside the club, and when we bring -out other than those, was there any other time you hit anybody with a -weapon? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. You don’t recall any other time, is that correct, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. I thought I said two of them—and I thought it meant with -my fists. - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, I meant with a weapon, when you actually hit someone -with an implement in your hand. - -Mr. RUBY. You thought I was feminine, didn’t you, Chief? Why did you -lock me up in that tank? [Addressing Chief Jailer Holman.] - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, when I asked you, “Do you have any sisters?” I -asked that in the plural—you have more than one sister? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. You have several sisters? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. How many sisters do you have? - -Mr. RUBY. Four. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did anything in particular come to your mind when I asked -you that question? - -Mr. RUBY. No—not like that other question. - -Mr. HERNDON. What question? - -Mr. RUBY. The one about “Have you ever been married?” - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I recall. - -Mr. RUBY. Do I sound like a man with an unsound mind to you? - -Mr. HERNDON. As I said before, Mr. Ruby, I’m not qualified to answer -that question. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh—oh. - -Mr. HERNDON. You have been cooperative as far as answering my questions -and proceeding with the examination. - -(At this point Mr. Specter left the room and shortly thereafter Messrs. -Alexander and Tonahill returned to the room.) - -Mr. HERNDON. We can proceed and move pretty fast as soon as Mr. Specter -comes back. Just sit and relax. Would you like me to take any of these -things off? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you comfortable? - -Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask me any more questions? Do you want to -go through that stuff there? - -Mr. HERNDON. I think I had better wait for Mr. Specter to be here. I -don’t want to proceed without him. Can I get you a drink of water? - -Mr. RUBY. No. Can we talk about certain things? - -Mr. HERNDON. I suggest you wait until Mr. Specter returns. - -Mr. RUBY. Is there anything on your mind, Bill, off the record? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. I think with that Cuban thing cleared up and with an -opportunity to answer a question on that—— - -Mr. RUBY. How about the underworld? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, he’s going to ask you that, if he hasn’t already. - -Mr. RUBY. There were a lot of phone calls, as you recall. I’m sure you -know that and there should be a specific way to ask me—“What was the -purpose of all those calls?” - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, you see, that wouldn’t record on the machine. The -question would have to be, “Did any telephone calls have any connection -with the shooting of Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, but still, when you have so many calls, you still want -to know why you called people. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, all your telephone calls were either business or -personal, weren’t they? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right, and the other question you asked about -Oswald—you know? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any of these calls have any connection with the -shooting of Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. How about my trip to Havana? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Has that been asked yet? - -Mr. HERNDON. That hasn’t been asked. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did your trip to Havana have any connection with the -shooting of Oswald, however remote?” - -Mr. RUBY. Have I ever had any business dealings—I want them to know my -relationship. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Have you ever had any political or business connection -with Castro or Cuba?” - -Mr. RUBY. That’s a good question. Or, why did I make that trip to -Havana? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Was your trip to Havana personal or business?” I think -that’s overlapping that Cuban deal. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, but here’s the thing. When people ask me—they say, -“Jack, you went to Havana, Cuba” and I say, “I went there for a -vacation.” They say, “How long did you stay?” When I say, “8 days,”—you -somehow have got to answer specifically that it was a vacation, because -a person can be very evasive and say he went for a vacation but yet had -other dealings there. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Was your trip to Havana purely for vacation and -pleasure?” - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, my memory is just vague—you’ve never been to -Mexico? - -Mr. RUBY. I never have been to Mexico, but Bill, you know a lot of -questions to ask me, I’m sure you know, that I’d like to get cleared up. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, you never have been interested in politics, as far -as I know? - -Mr. RUBY. What I was doing down at that News Building—what was I doing -down there Friday—I want that question asked. - -(At this point Mr. Specter returned to the room.) - -Mr. TONAHILL. That’s kind of a belabored question, Jack? - -Mr. RUBY. Joe, you don’t believe that. - -COURT REPORTER. I want to be sure I heard Mr. Ruby’s answer to Mr. -Alexander’s question a little while ago? - -Mr. RUBY. You want to hear that again? - -COURT REPORTER. I didn’t quite hear your answer to Mr. Alexander’s -question, “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting -of Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, you’re taking down what I’m saying? I didn’t know you -were taking that down. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we’re taking everything down. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh—well, give me the question again. - -COURT REPORTER. This was when Mr. Alexander asked you, “Did any of -these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?” and what -was your answer to that question? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -COURT REPORTER. Thank you. - -Mr. RUBY. Are you putting down the questions I’ve been asking myself? - -COURT REPORTER. Yes; everything you’ve been saying. - -Mr. RUBY. Voluntarily—correct? - -COURT REPORTER. Oh, yes. Just like you say them. - -Mr. RUBY. Okay. - -Mr. SPECTER. We are putting it down in the record, Mr. Ruby, just like -you’re saying it. - -Odell, can you bring me up-to-date, I’ve been out of the room. - -COURT REPORTER. Mr. Alexander has been asking him certain questions -that might be asked about—— - -Mr. RUBY. About that Havana, Cuba trip. - -COURT REPORTER. And had he been to Mexico, and had he been in politics, -and Mr. Alexander said to his knowledge he had not been interested -in politics, and the purpose of his trip to Cuba, whether it was for -business or pleasure, and I believe that is what was covered. - -Mr. RUBY. The most important question—you haven’t asked me yet—why did -I shoot Oswald? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, they can’t ask that kind of question for this -machine. They can only ask you—was it for a certain purpose. It has to -be a “Yes” or “No” answer. - -Mr. RUBY. The point is—if I was carried away emotionally, and because -I felt that, it sounds so unbelievable. Why shouldn’t I be asked a -question—why—what motivated me to do it? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, answer now the question, “Why did you shoot -Oswald?” and then we will turn that around into a question to ask you -for a “Yes” or “No” answer. - -Mr. RUBY. At the particular moment, after watching television all that—— - -Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me interject right now, again, as your attorney—I -advise you not to answer this question. - -Mr. RUBY. Clayton, I’m sorry, I’ve got to answer it. I’ve got to, -because, believe me, it means an awful lot to me. I didn’t want—I felt -so carried away—that at that particular time of the great tragedy, I -felt somehow in my little bit of a way I could save Mrs. Kennedy the -ordeal of coming back for trial here. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, fine, Mr. Ruby. That’s the same answer to -that general question that you gave when the Commission heard your -testimony, and we shall phrase that in an appropriate question for the -polygraph examination. Now, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon, with our -next series, please? - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you want me to rehearse the ones that are prepared? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; just our prepared series, and we will take these in a -sequence and we will cover everything else later. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, I’ll go over these for you again, Mr. Ruby, so -that you understand the intent of the question and what it means. - -“Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store during -the week before the assassination?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Was the Wall Street Journal addressed to a Mr. Bradshaw?” - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, that one, we’re going to have to rephrase. “Do you -know if the Wall Street Journal was addressed to Mr. Bradshaw?” - -Mr. RUBY. I haven’t read a Wall Street Journal in the longest time—in -years, probably. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you wish to keep that question in, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, was there a man named Bradshaw, your landlord? - -Mr. RUBY. No; Houston Nichols was my landlord, but I know a Bradshaw. -He used to be in the pinball game machine business. - -Mr. TONAHILL. A jukebox man? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; everybody knows him. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is his first name, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know, but he owned a liquor store and he’s a pretty -successful businessman. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw, -dated November 16, 1963, in your car at any time? - -Mr. RUBY. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever heard of any such Wall Street Journal having -been found in your car? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. We will rephrase that question too. Let’s try this: “Do -you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. -Bradshaw being found in your car?” - -Mr. RUBY. No; did they find one somewhere in my car? - -Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, please, Mr. Herndon. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you or any of your friends telephone the FBI in -Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” - -Mr. RUBY. How could I—I was incarcerated? Oh, Sunday morning? - -Mr. HERNDON. Some people might refer to that as Saturday night. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I know I went to bed about 1:30, so I can’t -answer that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Make that “To your knowledge”—— - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends”—do so and so? - -Mr. HERNDON. I think in that way you should be able to answer “Yes” or -“No”. - -“Did you or any of your friends telephone the sheriff’s office between -2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Again, I can rephrase that—“To your knowledge—” if you -wish? - -Mr. SPECTER. Make it—“Did you or any of your friends, to your -knowledge, phone the sheriff’s office?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. And then, some of these questions I will ask you again -here, such as, “Did you previously live in San Francisco?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I understand you did. - -I’m going to ask you this question, which will help me, and that is, -“In your dealings, Mr. Ruby, as a nightclub operator, at any time have -you ever overcharged a customer?” I assume there are some times when -you probably are at the cash register, is that correct, and you are -handling the transaction of money with customers or with the bills. - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. You understand what I mean by “overcharge”? - -Mr. RUBY. We have a very lucrative business in champagne there, -the kind of business that—Bill Alexander knows about it—they get -merchandise received for what they get. It’s quite lucrative and that’s -one way you can survive, I guess. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’ll just simply ask the question, “Did you ever -overcharge a customer?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’ll probably ask you questions for your identity, like -“Is your name Jack Ruby?” at the beginning of these series. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Let’s see, gentlemen, I believe we’ve gone over all these -questions, and I’m going to ask you also as a matter of record on the -test—are you tired? - -Mr. RUBY. No; as a matter of fact, I’m feeling my best right now. - -Mr. HERNDON. You feel all right. - -Those are the questions we’re going to ask. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:05 p.m.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill -left the room. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll get this machine to going again, -and we will get started on series No. 6. Mr. Ruby, could you sit up a -little straighter? When you slouch over like that, I’m not getting the -tracing I want on the reading. Now, that’s much better. [At this time -Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers.] Look straight ahead again, Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. I will let you know when I’m going to start the test, and -if you will answer the questions again, simply and truthfully, “Yes” or -“No.” - -If I come to any one of these that you feel like you are not sure how -to answer it and you don’t want to answer it “Yes” or “No,” once again -just refrain from talking and we will discuss the question at the end -of the series. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. I’ll remain silent, huh? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; remain silent. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:08 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin. - -“Is your name Jack Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at the Southwestern -Drug Store during the week before the assassination?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Are you tired?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal -addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you previously live in San Francisco?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends or did you -telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever overcharge a customer?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge -telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning.” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. I think that series is over and I will release the -pressure. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:10 p.m.) - -Mr. RUBY. Are they that important—those questions? I know more -important ones than that. Of course—I’m kidding. - -Mr. HERNDON. We have some more coming. - -Mr. Ruby, has a customer by any chance ever claimed that they were -overcharged at your place? Have you ever had any problems along that -line? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes—we have problems with waitresses and big bills. - -Mr. HERNDON. Other than what you told us about the Wall Street Journal, -is there anything else that came to your mind with regard to this Wall -Street Journal question? - -Mr. RUBY. As a matter of fact, the question you asked me is so foreign -to me—— - -Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you are completely unaware of the Wall -Street Journal situation? - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how it ever came to be there. - -Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:12 p.m.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander -returned to the room. - -Would you now proceed, Mr. Herndon, to the next series, and we’ll go -through those as rapidly as you can. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby. I’ll just read these right down the line, and -if you have any question, then interrupt me. Otherwise, I’ll just keep -going. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully?” - -Mr. RUBY (no response). - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on -Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?” - -Mr. RUBY. No—not of late, because of my businesses and my sister was -ill and I had to help at both places—I had to run both places. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, If you feel it is proper, you can answer that -question. - -Mr. RUBY. This was a special occasion, this Friday night—I wanted to go -there because of this tragedy happening. - -Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. The way I mean that question is—do you attend -the synagogue regularly and at every usual service? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, yes—on high holidays and when my father passed away, I -went there consistently for 11 months; morning and evening. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Now, -“that Friday night”—you know the night we’re talking about? - -Mr. RUBY. Friday night. - -Mr. HERNDON. The night of the assassination? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question—it’s simple and short: -“Do you pray?” - -Mr. RUBY. Not now, because it’s hopeless. I did. - -Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it “Yes” or “No” when the question comes. - -Mr. RUBY. Pardon me—I take it back—I do pray. I say certain prayers. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on a Friday night?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at one time employed by a union?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday -midnight press conference?” - -Mr. RUBY. Let’s have that again? - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday -midnight press conference?” - -Mr. RUBY. You mean at the police station? No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Just so we have it clear—what we mean here is—— - -Mr. RUBY. You mean in my possession? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you insert in there—“at the jail”—“did you have a -gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at -the jail?” - -Mr. ALEXANDER. If you put it in his car or on his person, I think he -can answer it better. - -Mr. RUBY. No—because I recall when I first said I did, and then I -changed it later. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, so you understand what I mean when I say “Did -you have a gun with you?” I mean on the person. - -I’m going to ask this question which one of the gentlemen recommended, -and it is, “Have you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I may have left out certain things because I was a -little—I wasn’t as calm as I am now, so in reality, certain things I -could have said, I’m sure in my frame of mind now I would be able to do -it better, but I told the truth at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we could rephrase it and say, “Is everything you -told the Warren Commission the truth?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I can say that. - -Mr. HERNDON. The question will be then, as Mr. Specter put it, “Is -everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HERNDON. Any questions, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Fine; I will proceed. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this will be series No. 7. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now left the room. - -Mr. RUBY. I wonder why Mr. Tonahill is here. He’s not my attorney. -Clayton, is Joe Tonahill representing me? - -Mr. FOWLER. Well Jack, in some capacity, I think he is still involved. - -Mr. RUBY. Well—yes and no. - -Mr. FOWLER. But please don’t worry about it at this time. He is here. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, do you mind if I tighten the rubber tube on your -chest just a slight bit more? - -Mr. RUBY. Make it as tight as you want it. I want to get it right. - -Mr. HERNDON. No; I don’t want to make it too tight, I want to make it -comfortable. - -Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Holman). Are you coming to work tomorrow? I -don’t know where you’ll find me. How about you, chief? - -Mr. HOLMAN. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just breathe naturally and sit up a little -bit straighter. That’s good. That’s fine, Mr. Ruby. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Just relax. [At this point Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers -twice.] - -I will tell you once again when the test will begin. Answer the -questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” Try to sit perfectly relaxed and -try not to move. Look straight ahead, if you will, Mr. Ruby. - -Did you just have a gas pain or something trouble you? - -Mr. RUBY. No; nothing. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, relax. We will now begin. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:18 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you intend to answer these questions truthfully?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes; I do.” - -Mr. HERNDON. Just answer the questions “Yes” or “No,” please. - -Mr. RUBY. OK. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on -Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?” - -Mr. RUBY. How can I answer that one? - -Mr. HERNDON. Just relax. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday -night?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you pray?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday night?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at one time employed by a union?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday -midnight press conference at the jail?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No”. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire -truth?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes”. - -Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. Just sit still for a moment, Mr. -Ruby, and I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:21 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. At the beginning of that series, Mr. Ruby, you displayed -a little nervousness and a little tension. Perhaps it was the question -I asked with regard to the synagogue. Did that upset you in any way? - -Mr. RUBY. Because—you’re ashamed to admit you haven’t been going -regular—yet, you don’t want to come out with a blunt answer “No”—it -makes you sort of an atheist, and I didn’t want to answer it that way, -but I do go to the high holidays, but going regular and going to the -high holidays are two different ways of going. People that go regular -go every Friday night and pretty regular during the week, but my hours -were entirely different. I mean—I’m trying to explain that to you. - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that’s what I want you to do. Go ahead, sir. - -Mr. RUBY. I could say “Yes” and I would be lying to you saying “Yes”. -Anyway, the last couple of years—the last year and a half or 2 years -have been very tough to me businesswise and I’ve stayed pretty close, -outside the high holidays. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did that question disturb you in any regard when I asked, -“Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday——” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Before you went to the synagogue?” You did show some -reaction, will you tell me that, sir? - -Mr. RUBY. Because I knew that some man in the trial said I did come -down there, and naturally, that came flashing into my mind. - -Mr. HERNDON. Was this some man at the trial? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did he testify? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; Mr. John Rutledge. He said I was down there earlier, -when I wasn’t—and the association of this man came to my mind. Can you -ask me that over again? - -Mr. HERNDON. I don’t think I have to, Mr. Ruby. I wanted to get your -explanation of why. Did you feel a reaction to that question? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; because it’s like the Wall Street Journal question—when -you asked me that. I get nervous too. When they said they found it in -my car, there must be some reason that it was found in my car, when I -know I never did see this particular paper. - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, at this trial Mr. John Rutledge’s testimony -conflicted with what you had said, is that correct? - -Mr. SPECTER. Not what he said, Mr. Herndon. He didn’t testify. - -Mr. RUBY. He testified emphatically—it looked like I was trying to find -out who this Oswald was, and if I went down there more than once. - -Mr. HERNDON. I see. You did feel the reaction on that question? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I think we can proceed on to the next series. - -Mr. SPECTER. We’re now at series 8, correct? - -Mr. HERNDON. The next series will be 8, correct. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:23 p.m.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill -have returned now. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you all right, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. We shall continue, and these are questions we want to put -to you for this next series. - -“Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party -or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, is that question too long for you to answer it -clearly? - -Mr. RUBY. No; no. - -Mr. HERNDON. Of course, there are two parts there—the Communist -Party or any other group that advocates the violent overthrow of the -Government—do you understand the question? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; very much so. - -Mr. HERNDON. And then I will ask you, “Did you legally change your last -name?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you again at the beginning of the test, -“Is your last name Ruby?” I’m going to ask, “Do you know if any of -your immediate family or any close friend is a member of the Communist -Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you know if any of your immediate family or any close -friend is a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of -the Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase those, Mr. Herndon. “To your knowledge, is -any member of your family——” - -Mr. HERNDON. Rather than “Do you know——”. - -Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you put it stronger—ask me the question without—to -my knowledge—the answer is “No”. When you say—to my knowledge—you leave -an opening there. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Say—“Is any member of your family a member”—— - -Mr. SPECTER. We will take that and make it categorical—without the -prefix. - -Mr. RUBY. In other words, I don’t want any opening for any doubt that -there is. - -Mr. HERNDON. Both those questions I started, “Do you know,”—I’m going -to just start the question—“Is any member of your family”—et cetera. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Is that all right with you, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. No, no; emphatically. - -Mr. HERNDON. Here again, “Is any close friend or any member of your -immediate family,”—I will have to change this one. I shall ask the -question this way, unless you have reason to object. “Do you know if -any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attended a -meeting of the Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. In other words, if I say I know they did—— - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you have knowledge, in other words? - -Mr. RUBY. No; not knowledge—you’re putting me in a spot there. Repeat -it. - -Mr. HERNDON. Let me ask this question the way I composed it originally. -“Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family -ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. Meaning—I know they didn’t. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s a very valid point. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase it then—“Did any member of your immediate -family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist -Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. How do you want that, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. “Did any member of your immediate family or any close -friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. I just had it slightly different. “Did any close friend -or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the -Communist Party?” Is that all right? - -Mr. SPECTER. That phraseology is satisfactory. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, there’s one other question here and this one is a -little bit long, and we might want to discuss this question so Mr. -Ruby will understand it perfectly. “Do you know if any close friend or -any member of your immediate family has ever attended a meeting of any -group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know that they didn’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase the question, leaving out the “Do you -know”—— - -Mr. HERNDON. So that it will now be, “Did any—et cetera.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, the question will read: “Did any close friend -or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any -group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Those are the questions, unless Mr. Ruby has some question -on them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander -are now out of the room and we may proceed with this series. - -(Reporter’s note. 7:28 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this is series No. 8. - -All right, Mr. Ruby, I shall now put some pressure in the arm cuff -and if you will look straight ahead, sir, and answer the questions -truthfully “Yes” or “No,” and I will tell you when I am going to begin -asking questions. - -The test will now begin. - -“Is your last name Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the -Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of -the Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you legally change your last name?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close -friend, a member of the Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close -friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of -the Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. Look straight ahead, please, sir. “Did any close friend -or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the -Communist Party?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate -family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent -overthrow of the Government?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. If you will relax, Mr. Ruby, I will -release the pressure on your arm. - -(Reporter’s note: 7:33 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. I know these questions were a little long, but I feel that -you got the intent of them all right. - -Mr. RUBY. Sure; I did. - -Mr. HERNDON. That will complete series No. 8. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that we are now going to take a very -short recess, and resume in just a few moments. - -Mr. HERNDON. Would you like to take this off just a minute and stand up -a little bit, unless you prefer me to leave it on? - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -(Reporter’s note: Recess began 7:33 p.m. During the recess Mr. Fowler -and Mr. Ruby conferred out of the hearing of all in the room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. It is now 7:55 p.m. and may the record show that we have -taken a 20-minute recess and have now reconvened for the last session. - -Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask about the phone calls? - -Mr. SPECTER. Those are going to be covered, Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. RUBY. I know you are for me, Joe, I know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let us proceed at this point, Mr. Herndon, with the next -series of questions. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right? - -Mr. RUBY. Fine. - -Mr. HERNDON. We shall then continue. I’m going to read off a good -number of questions here, and I’m going to ask them in a series called -9 and a series called 9a. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. And I’m not going to interject any of these other minor -questions. These are all direct questions and I want to make sure that -you understand what they are. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business -with Mexico or Cuba?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. Pardon me—why don’t you say, “Did you ever meet him at -the post office or at the club?” Wouldn’t that be good too? - -Mr. SPECTER. We have asked you if you ever knew him before, and now -we’re focusing on this. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh—“How many times did he come up to the club?”—that’s -something else. Also, somebody said that they saw Tippit, I, this Mr. -Lane stated that he saw Tippit, myself, and Oswald at the club—so go -ahead, I don’t want to throw you off. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will add a question there at that point, such as -this: “Did you ever meet with Officer Tippit and Oswald at your club?” - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you want that “Oswald and” or “or”? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we do. Use “and.” - -Mr. RUBY. The first thing about that post office box—how do we know -whether it’s really authentic or the man had the box there or not? It -could have been placed there at a later date? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. It was right, Jack. He had it. I saw the key myself and -it had “X” number on the box. - -Mr. RUBY. How come it never come out before then? Why didn’t it come -out still before that? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. It did. - -Mr. RUBY. No; it didn’t come out until a long time—until just recently. -It just came out about a week ago. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. They just didn’t feature it—it was just overlooked. I -saw the key that night. - -Mr. RUBY. But Bill, I know one thing—I know that box could have been -purchased at a later date, after Oswald’s death and could make it look -like it’s close to mine; I know that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, the situation there isn’t really directly germane -here. - -Mr. RUBY. It looks very bad for me, though, I know that. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. No; Jack, I saw the key Friday night. - -Mr. SPECTER. We will cover the subject matter here, so you will have a -chance under the polygraph examination to cover it. - -Mr. RUBY. You probably saw the key, but I know the affiliation with -the Government, that you can always get a box at a later date, if you -wanted to do that. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, on Friday night that key was photographed, -inventoried, and—— - -Mr. RUBY. What Friday night? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. The Friday night of the assassination. - -Mr. RUBY. You mean it was known—the number of the box—that Friday night? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir; sure was. - -Mr. RUBY. Did the public know about it and everybody else? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. I’m sure they did. - -Mr. RUBY. All right; go ahead. - -Mr. HERNDON. I will proceed, Mr. Ruby. “Did you do business with Castro -Cuba?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you keep $2,200 in cash on you because you didn’t -have a chance to get to the bank?” Is that question clear? - -Mr. RUBY. Let me go off the record. This is going to be ad libbing, -Miss, so can you hold it off on this? Can you hold it off or do you -have to put it down? - -COURT REPORTER. Mr. Ruby, you have to ask that man over there—Mr. -Specter. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to go off the record, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, off the record at this point. - -(Explanation by Mr. Ruby at this point regarding the $2,200 cash item -previously mentioned—off the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record. Mr. Ruby, that’s a perfectly good -explanation, and I think it would be better if we put that on the -record as to this point, if it’s all right with you. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; but it’s too crazy, mixed up, the way I was saying it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, essentially what you’re saying makes good sense. -What you’re saying is that you don’t want to have it in a condition -where somebody can levy on it and get ahold of it before your creditors -got it. - -Mr. RUBY. Well. I had the total cash for both clubs, but then, this was -Friday night. Now, knowing my payroll at the Carousel runs to $1,600 or -$1,400 on a Sunday night, and the Vegas Club on Saturday night because -we close Sunday, consequently that money would be absorbed completely -in another night or two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, that makes good sense. I think that in view of -what your answer has been, it is preferable for us to put it on the -record rather than to have any suggestion that anything that has been -off the record is in anyway damaging or that we’re keeping anything off -the record that ought to be on the record. - -Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to go through that again, now? Do you want me -to go through what I said to you now? - -Mr. SPECTER. That’s right. Now, Miss Odell Oliver, will you go on -the record with Mr. Ruby now, and since Mr. Ruby has made a brief -explanation with regard to the last question, and at my suggestion -he is willing to put it on the record, and he will now repeat the -substance of what he has previously said. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. Due to my sister being ill and away from running -the Vegas Club, I had in my possession for both clubs for operation, -for payrolls and everything else, et cetera, et cetera. - -Just a week prior to that I had purchased a safe which I knew it was -necessary to have, and we already had—my maintenanceman had built the -forms for the safe, and we wanted further information as to where to -place this safe in the club where it would be safest where burglars -couldn’t get at it. We called a Mr. Joe Cody of the police department -to advise us where to place the thing. Consequently the safe had not -been placed in cement as yet, and I had been carrying the total amount -of cash for both clubs, the total capital, which include my purchases -if there were to be any made, and the payroll for both clubs, and any -accumulated excise tax money from the beginning of the last quarter for -both clubs. So, hence, that money belonged solely to the operation of -the Vegas Club and the Carousel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, then we will rephrase that question to this and -simply state—“Have you now told the truth about why you carried $2,200 -in cash?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; but you have a reason for asking me that—whether -that was somebody else’s money or something—yes. All that money is -specifically in relationship to the operation of both clubs. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, we could rephrase it, “Have you now told the truth -concerning why you carried around $2,200 in cash?” and we will cover -the substance of the matter in that question. - -Mr. RUBY. In other words, you don’t want to leave it in your apartment -because somebody might break in, but you feel it’s safe, especially if -I’m armed anyway, not that I can handle a gun that well, or whatever it -may be, but somehow you feel—it’s true I had the safe installed because -I thought that would be safer to put any of my possessions in. In other -words, it’s a cash operation. In other words, $2,200 in one week is a -good return anyway. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’ll proceed, Mr. Ruby, if you are ready? - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the -underworld?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, by the word “foreign” in those questions, Mr. Ruby, -we intend to convey to you—by Russia, by Cuba, or by any other foreign -government, so that you may understand the full import of that question. - -Mr. RUBY. No—but the whole thing was based on—when was the first time -you thought of it—in other words, that Sunday morning, so in other -words—well, we’ll get to that. - -Mr. HERNDON. “No” is the answer? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. I will now rephrase that, if I may. “Did you shoot Oswald -because of labor union influence?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made -before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the -assassination?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the -shooting of Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the -ordeal of a trial?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Officer Tippit?” - -Mr. RUBY. This is off the record for a minute, please? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think it would be unwise for us to go off the -record on this question. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, all right. There were three Officer Tippits in the -police department. I only knew one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. RUBY. He’s the one who was slain? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes—Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think he was the one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Officer Tippit who was slain? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know him. You see, I know so many officers and -there are three Tippits, but I know one Tippit, and which one that -is—if I would see him personally and see his physical features and -knowing him—of course, I didn’t have time to—I was incarcerated too -soon to find out. Actually, the Tippit I knew, who worked at special -service in the police department—you know which one I’m talking about, -Bill? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes; but that’s not the one. - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know this Tippit. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. This boy had always been a radio patrolman. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know that I had ever seen this fellow before—I -had never seen him before. I may have seen him before but I didn’t know -him. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, if I ask a question, “Did you know the Officer -Tippit slain?” Can you reasonably answer that truthfully “Yes” or “No”? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. I mean—you can answer it without any problem mentally? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s what I mean. - -Mr. SPECTER. To state it differently, you are able to answer whether or -not you knew Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I can’t answer “Yes” or “No” and say whether or not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to be sure that your last answer is -responsive so that we are clear. - -Mr. RUBY. Well, I gave the answer “No.” - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s put it this way—“Did you know the Tippit that was -killed?” - -Mr. RUBY. Repeat that question? - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray -Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you come out of the assembly room on Friday night to -get the telephone number of KLIF?” - -Mr. RUBY. Not come out of the assembly room—I went to the assembly room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to the assembly room? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. On Friday night—in order to get the telephone number of -KLIF? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, we want to make that clear. We want to make -that correction. - -Mr. RUBY. Did you know that was part of my story, did you know that? - -Mr. HERNDON. The question will be worded, Mr. Ruby, “Did you go to the -assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s clear and concise for you? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your -apartment?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. Here again the Officer Tippit is the one we’re talking -about that was killed. - -Mr. RUBY. Right. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, those are the questions and we will -proceed on those. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Let’s proceed with this series. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. What was that last question? - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your -apartment?” - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill -have left the room. - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:10 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, we can continue. If we may do so, we can save a -little time, I’ll go ahead and ask you about seven or eight questions. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. And I’ll just stop so that I can let the pressure off your -arm. - -Mr. RUBY. Don’t worry about me. I’m in good shape. The point is—I want -to get as much in as we can. I don’t want you to miss anything, because -there’s a lot of pertinent stuff. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, if you will sit back a little bit -higher, and if you will uncross your legs. Take a deep breath. - -Mr. RUBY. All right. - -Mr. HERNDON. And relax and exhale. - -For the record, this will be series 9. If you will look straight ahead -and answer these questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” We will now begin. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:12 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business -with Mexico or Cuba?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you do business with Castro-Cuba?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried -$2,200 in cash on you?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the -underworld?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to stop here a moment, sir, and release the -pressure on your arm and you just relax for a moment. Then I shall -begin again in a moment. - -Mr. RUBY. Okay. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:15 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Just relax, Mr. Ruby. - -Does your arm feel all right? - -Mr. RUBY. Fine—I’m all right. - -Mr. HERNDON. I will continue this next series of questions and it will -be listed as series 9a. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:17 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. We will begin again. - -“Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made -before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the -assassination?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the -shooting of Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the -ordeal of a trial?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray -Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get -the telephone number of KLIF?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your -club?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series. I will release that pressure -and you can now relax. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:20 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be relaxed and feeling fine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you ready, Mr. Herndon? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that completes that series. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned to the room. - -Mr. HERNDON. Shall I go right into the next series? - -Mr. SPECTER. Go right into the series. We just did series 9 and 9a, and -we are now going to series 10. - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; we just have a few more questions. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s wonderful, except there are a few things that I think -you’ve left out. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Mr. Ruby. If you have additional questions you want -asked, we will do our best to cover anything additional when we finish. - -Mr. HERNDON. Here are the next questions which I would like to ask -you, Mr. Ruby, on the next series. Again, I want to make sure that you -understand each and every one of them. - -“Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything at the time you shot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have any members of your family been physically harmed -because of what you did?” - -Mr. RUBY. Not up to this point; no. - -Mr. HERNDON. Then, the question can be answered in your mind either -“Yes” or “No”? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you think members of your family are now in danger -because of what you did?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you just before you shot -Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—so, I’ll say “No.” Oh, I see what you mean. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you”—— - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. “Just before you shot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. I realize this is based on your recollection, but if you -feel you can answer it “Yes” or “No,” fine. - -Mr. RUBY. The trouble is I didn’t hear any sounds of voices—then, I’ve -got to say “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. It’s your recollection you don’t recall Blackie Harrison -speaking to you just before you shot Oswald? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, you answered the question “Yes.” Did you say -something immediately before you shot Oswald? - -Mr. HERNDON. I was going to ask that on here and then ask him about -that again. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but I would like to cover it in advance. What did you -say to Oswald, if you don’t mind? - -Mr. RUBY. I said, “You killed my President, you rat”—something like -that. “You killed my” or “our President, you rat.” - -Mr. SPECTER. I would like then to modify that question, Mr. Herndon. -“Did you say anything to Oswald immediately before shooting him, other -than, ‘You killed our President, you rat’”? If that’s not too long. I’d -like that. - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, just let me sit down and take a good look at that -question. - -(At this point there was a conference between Messrs. Specter, -Alexander, and Herndon out of the hearing of others in the room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, would you now read the question to Mr. Ruby -as we have modified it after consultation. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, the question will be this way: “Did you say -anything when you shot Oswald other than that what you testified about?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. HERNDON. The testifying about was pertaining to those statements -that you’ve just told us here a few moments ago. Do you follow me there? - -Mr. RUBY. The statement I made? - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, I will proceed with the series again. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s proceed with the series. - -May the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have left the -room. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:25 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready to begin now, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, if you will uncross your legs and put your feet -flat on the floor, please, Mr. Ruby, and are you comfortable? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Will you look straight ahead during the actual asking of -the questions. - -For the record, this is series No. 10. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:26 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. I notice during the time—all the time I ask you questions, -Mr. Ruby, that you close your eyes. If that’s a way that you can -concentrate, that’s perfectly all right. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s why—if I were guilty of something or if I were -trying to evade something, certainly closing your eyes would be less -advantageous for you to cover up something. Do you follow me? In other -words, closing your eyes means that I do want to tell the truth. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s what I want you to do—just concentrate on the -question alone and you have to make that decision whether you will -answer it “Yes” or “No”. - -Mr. RUBY. In other words, if I was trying to cover up anything, I -wouldn’t try to get more of a vision of what you’re trying to refer me -to. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, if you will look straight ahead now, and sit -perfectly still, we will begin, and I will let you know when we’re -going to ask the first question. - -Mr. RUBY. In other words, I’m trying to be more emphatic with the truth -when I close my eyes—more than the truth. - -Mr. HERNDON. Would you put your complete left hand on that arm -rest—that’s it. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:27 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin. - -“Is your name Jack Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than what -you’ve testified about?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Have members of your family been physically harmed -because of what you did?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” May I interrupt? - -Mr. HERNDON. Just sit perfectly still. We will discuss the questions -later, Mr. Ruby. - -“Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what -you did?” - -Mr. Ruby (no response). - -Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” - -Mr. Ruby (no response). - -Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Hanson speak to you just before you shot -Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. “No.” - -Mr. HERNDON. That will conclude that series, and just sit still a -moment, Mr. Ruby, and I will let the pressure out. Now, as soon as I -shut this off, we will discuss these questions. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:30 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. On that series of questions, Mr. Ruby, you failed to -respond or answer one or two of these questions, which I’ll give you an -opportunity now to make any comment you wish to make about them. - -Question No. 5, I asked, “Do you think members of your family are now -in danger because of what you did?” - -Mr. RUBY. Well, they’re always exposed to it, so I don’t know how to -answer that. - -Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you felt it would be difficult for you to -say either “Yes” or “No”; is that correct? - -Mr. RUBY. That’s right; the same way with Fowler. I know when he’s -representing me, he’s putting himself on the spot. - -Mr. WOOD. Neither the court reporter nor I got the last name of -“Blackie”—exactly. - -Mr. HERNDON. I believe I said “Harrison.” That’s the way I had it in -my notes, but perhaps you might have gotten the impression I said -“Hanson.” You knew who I was talking about, Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. That’s the main thing that you knew exactly who I meant. - -Mr. SPECTER. I believe you said “Harrison.” - -Mr. Ruby, are there any other questions which you would like to be -covered with you? - -Mr. HERNDON. Excuse me, Mr. Specter, I have one more question here. For -my records—he did not respond to question No. 6. If you want, I can go -over that and we can discuss that question without any response. - -Mr. SPECTER. No; I’d like to discuss that. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. -Alexander have already returned to the room, and I would like to -discuss that if it’s all right with you here. Let the record show that -we would like to cover that now. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, on that last series, I asked a question, “Is Mr. -Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” You remained silent, -which is one of the instructions I gave you, if you so pleased to do. -Would you at this time indicate to me why you wanted to remain silent? - -Mr. RUBY. Well, No. 1, this is quite a notorious thing, and don’t -forget, it’s just like I specified when Earl Warren was in danger, you -know, so he is—in other words, people have a dislike for me, and Mr. -Fowler is trying to defend me, and this won’t make him too popular a -person—too well liked of a person, I should say. - -Mr. HERNDON. Then, you just simply didn’t want to come out with a “Yes” -or “No” answer? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; because I wouldn’t know how to answer that. - -Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Specter. Thank you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, do you now have any other questions which you -would like us to ask you on this polygraph examination? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; “At what time did I first think of wanting—when was the -first time it ever entered my mind that I wanted to commit this act?” - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. We asked you that. - -Mr. RUBY. You did—because if anything prior to that—in other words—— - -Mr. SPECTER. No; we asked you that very carefully a number of ways and -one way was when Mr. Herndon asked you did you think of it on Friday, -and you said “No”; did you think of it on Saturday morning—“No”; did -you think of it on Saturday evening—“No”; on Sunday morning “Yes,”—so -we’ve covered that very thoroughly. - -Mr. RUBY. Have I ever received any monies—we don’t need that, do we, -for subversive purposes or anything. - -Mr. SPECTER. I think we’ve covered that whole area very carefully. - -Mr. RUBY. Now, what about my being present in the News Building that -morning? Here—the assassination took place across the street from there? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have covered that when we asked -you if you told the truth on your testimony before the President’s -Commission, because you went into that on June 7, and that isn’t nearly -the central issue as the other specific questions we have asked you. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; but if I was in a conspiracy, wouldn’t it start off with -that point? Oh, yes; they didn’t ask me another question: “If I loved -the President so much, why wasn’t I at the parade?” Is that a very -important question to ask? - -Mr. SPECTER. We have considered those questions and that was when we -reviewed the transcript of your testimony, and quite frankly, we have -rejected them as being not important. - -Mr. RUBY. You have? I see. Now, isn’t it strange—now, I want to tell -you something that’s noticeable in this part of the country about the -poll tax, and there are a lot of other reasons, maybe. I’m reluctant to -buy my poll tax in time, and I don’t recall whether or not—is this all -right to go in the record if I speak? - -Mr. SPECTER. You may go on the record with any facet you think is -important for the Commission to know about. - -Mr. RUBY. And yet, it’s strange that perhaps I didn’t vote for -President Kennedy, or didn’t vote at all, that I should build up such -a great affection for him, when everything points against me. For -instance, the parade issue I referred to. How can I answer that and -still show my sincerity or my feelings and why I was carried away so -emotionally to do something like that, that has put me in such serious -trouble? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, there’s no way to put that on the machine other -than to ask you if you told the truth in your testimony; and that’s an -opinion without concrete facts. - -Mr. RUBY. But I don’t remember if I got all the testimony in when -Warren was here. - -Mr. SPECTER. You testify now as to anything you want to add and we can -ask you one question at the end and that will be “Have you told the -truth in everything you’ve said here today?” That one question will -cover everything you said, so that if any other phase comes to your -mind now, let us hear about it. - -Mr. RUBY. What I’m trying to bring out is this: It’s—and everyone -was very much surprised—why should I be carried away so emotionally -to commit the act, and yet knowing how I felt and knowing I know I’m -telling the truth, how can we bring that point out that I am not -sincere in why I did it? - -Mr. SPECTER. We can bring that out with the one general question. Now, -is there any other topic you would like to testify about and have us -check you on your truthfulness? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes—whether or not I was ever mixed up with the underworld -here or involved in any crime? - -Mr. SPECTER. You’ve been asked that specifically, and you’ve testified -about that. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. You see, I’ve been in Dallas 17 years and yet suddenly -I get involved in a very serious crime and I was very popular with the -police department and a lot of other people, and the irony is—it took a -complete reverse of that, because of various suspicions, nature, and so -on. - -I wonder if you follow what I’m trying to bring out? Maybe there’s -something we can cover in that area. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, let’s cover it this way. “Were any of your -relations with the police department improper?” - -Mr. RUBY. No—you, like doing business or something or other? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes? - -Mr. RUBY. No—none whatsoever. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, would that question cover what you had in mind? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Tell us what you had in mind and then we’ll frame the -question, because that’s an area. - -Mr. RUBY. Whether or not I am of criminal background or whether I’m -an honest and sincere person, because all those things came out and -suspicions came out that Jack Ruby was involved in this and that and -leaves a lot of suspicion as to my background and my character. That’s -very vague, but that’s what I’m trying to bring out. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. How would this question be? “Are you a police character?” - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent patriotic American citizen?” - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding citizen?” - -Mr. RUBY. That’s better—that’s the question. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding patriotic citizen?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent American patriotic citizen?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. That can be asked. - -Mr. RUBY. That’s very good, because—shall I elaborate on this? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. I became closely attached to our beloved President when he -gave that wonderful speech when we had our problem in Cuba at that -time. That was a very tremendous speech and then I followed him on -television and in magazines wherever he went—to Ireland and different -places. - -Now, Joe asked a very good question. In other words, either you are -American or you’re half and half or you’re indifferent to the way you -feel about your country and how much you love it. - -When he stated to me a moment ago, “Are you 100 percent -American?”—that’s the way you feel about your country. I don’t know how -to state it but first of all, I want to make sure—I’ve got my flags -in both colors—that doesn’t show any overt—but inwardly, I’m a very -unstable person. I’m very lax in certain details and things, and yet -for the emotional feeling and the feeling for giving my life and for -loving this country is so great, that I think when you asked me that -question, “Are you 100 percent American?” and if I answered the truth, -it will greater effect than any other way you can ask me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we can cover that one in a specific question, in -another general question, on whether you have told the complete truth -here today. Are there any other topics which you want to cover? - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, sir. Has any of the underworld ever contributed -money to me for my clubs, or was I put in here as a front for the -underworld or things to that effect. I mean—this has a relationship to -criminal intent. - -Mr. SPECTER. We’ve asked you the question if the underworld had any -connection with the shooting of Oswald. - -Let me now ask you for the record while you are under oath, whether you -were put in here by the underworld? - -Mr. RUBY. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the underworld contribute in any way to the financing -of any of your clubs? - -Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any connection or association in any way -whatsoever with the underworld during the past 17 years you’ve been in -Dallas? - -Mr. RUBY. Never have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, we’ll ask you in a few moments with Mr. Herndon, -whether you’ve told the truth, and that will be covered—that will cover -this underworld question. - -Mr. RUBY. Just the one question is enough to cover it? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon advises that it is. - -Mr. HERNDON. I can ask that question and have it a matter of record. - -Mr. RUBY. You see, there are so many things that I know in the minds of -the people in Dallas that you’re not concerned with, that maybe I was -put here as a front of the underworld and sooner or later they will get -something out of me that they want done to their advantage. - -Everything I have had financed, my brother Earl has contributed the -money for or Ralph Paul, a friend of mine, has loaned me money. - -Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, if I can interrupt—on some of these -questions you are recently discussing here are more or less in the -area of emotions and the area dealing with advance psychology or of a -psychiatric nature, and although I can ask them if you so wish, they -are questions that don’t necessarily lend themselves to the polygraph -technique. - -Unless you can specifically break them down to a clearcut question -which could be answered truthfully “Yes” or “No,” that involves a -specific action or emotion that he can recall in regard to a particular -action, then it would not be a good question here. - -Mr. SPECTER. I agree with you. - -Mr. HERNDON. You see, this 100 percent American type question doesn’t -necessarily lend itself to polygraph examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. I agree with your conclusion, but what we’re trying to -do now is to cover all of the important substantive questions which I -think we have. After Mr. Ruby tells me that he is satisfied with what -we have covered, I propose to ask the same question of Mr. Fowler and -Mr. Alexander and also Mr. Tonahill, so that we will have covered the -subject matter. We will do our utmost to be all-inclusive here, so that -whatever effect the polygraph can gage as to Mr. Ruby’s truthfulness, -we will do so. - -Mr. RUBY. Let me put it this way: Here I run a nightclub. I run a -nightclub and on Friday this tragic event happens and I get carried -away more so than anyone else. Why? Why was I so sick mentally or so -carried away? - -I immediately replaced my newspaper ads so that I would be closed for -those 3 days. This is the ironic part of it, that wouldn’t it be a -tremendous hoax, or certain people would probably believe it that -way, that here’s a fellow that didn’t vote for the President, closes -his clubs for 3 days, made a trip to Cuba, relayed a message from a -person—from Ray Brantley—look at circumstantially how guilty I am? If -you want to put all these things together? Then, I happen to be down -there, which is a million and one shot, that I should happen to be down -there at that particular second when this man comes out of whatever -it was—an elevator or whatever it was—all these things—plus the fact -of the post office box and other rumors that they saw us together at -the club—how can we give me the clearance that the ads I put in were -authentic, my sincerity, my feeling of emotionalism were sincere; that -that Sunday morning I got carried away after reading the article, a -letter addressed to Caroline and then this little article that stated -Mrs. Kennedy might be requested to come back and face the ordeal of the -trial? - -Also, if there was a conspiracy, then this little girl that called me -on the phone in Fort Worth then is a part of the conspiracy. Do you -follow me? - -Mr. SPECTER. I understand you, Mr. Ruby, but you have testified about -most of this on the prior occasion, such as seeing the article in -the newspaper, about the letter to little Caroline and about the -necessity for Mrs. Kennedy to return, and we have formulated the -questions concerning the major topics which we have of concern and -have supplemented those topics in the questions to you. I think in all -fairness that we have gone as far as we can on any of the substantive -questions, and I want you to be satisfied, and the Commission wants you -to be satisfied, and that’s why I keep repeating the question—whether -you have any other topic. I can see you are trying to recollect -something else—so that you will have covered everything in a conclusive -way. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. As soon as you are satisfied on that, I’m going to ask the -other gentlemen a question, as I say, and as a matter of fact, I can do -that now while you are still thinking. - -I will ask Mr. Fowler if there is any other question that he would like -to have asked of you at this time? - -Mr. FOWLER. Sir, I know of no other questions that could be asked at -this time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill, do you have any other questions you would -like to have asked? - -Mr. TONAHILL. No, I don’t. I think it has been very, very -comprehensive. From my knowledge of the background, I think if you -asked Jack if he went to the Dallas Morning News that morning to -attend to business and protested vigorously the ad insulting President -Kennedy, if he protested because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American -citizen, I think he would, tell you “Yes” and he would be telling the -truth. - -I think if you asked him why he went out about 4 o’clock in the morning -with George Senator and Larry and took that picture of the sign—— - -Mr. RUBY. Don’t mention anything about that—we’re in a bad spot down -here because of that. - -Mr. TONAHILL (continuing). Of Chief Justice Earl Warren, he would tell -you that he did it because he was going to turn it over to the FBI and -some attorneys, because he thought it was un-American and he did it -because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American citizen, and he’s telling -the truth. - -Mr. RUBY. I also went over to the post office to check on the box. - -Mr. TONAHILL. The same thing on the box—to see there if the post office -numbers on the sign and in the newspaper ad meant the same person was -behind it, which would be the John Birchers and Communists both, and he -wanted to do something about it because he’s a 100 percent patriotic -American citizen, he would be telling the truth. - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know about the ad—you’re talking about the ad -against President Kennedy? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes. - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t refer to the John Birch—with reference to that. - -Mr. TONAHILL. He wanted to see if they were connected together—the same -people. - -Mr. RUBY. I didn’t mention the term “John Birch.” I just said, “I -wonder who could have placed that ad in there?” - -Mr. TONAHILL. That’s all I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have any questions to ask? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. I have no questions to ask. I think it has been most -comprehensive. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, did you go to the Dallas Morning News to protest -the advertisement that made derogatory statements about President -Kennedy? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I went there to place my ad, because my business is -very—it’s very important that I’m there on the weekend, in the first -place. My business is conducted on a cash basis, and you can’t place -your ads unless you are there to pay for them. - -Mr. SPECTER. You testified to that before? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any comment about the newspaper advertisement -which contained derogatory references to President Kennedy? - -Mr. RUBY. We spoke about it up at the Morning News there, and I didn’t -want to make anything there about it because I knew they accepted it. -They accepted the ad. It would be rather embarrassing to say something -to them because they were responsible. The phones were ringing off the -desks with people canceling various ads and so on, but I did make—I -went to the Turf Club—that’s where I got all hepped up about it—over at -the Turf Lounge, and I went to the post office to find out who was it -that placed that ad, you know, and how it came about. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you satisfied then, Mr. Ruby, if we ask you one more -question on the polygraph, specifically, “Has all the information -which you have testified to today been the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth?” - -Mr. RUBY. Plus the fact that I do want to get in my feeling for -Americanism and how I felt, because—remember—there may be unseen -persons that may not believe in my sincerity, so I want that -specifically asked—how I feel about my country I live in and so on, -unless it’s repeating something. Is it? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will ask it of you again so that there’s no -question about. We will formulate the question, “Do you consider -yourself to be a 100 percent American patriot?” - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And then we’ll ask the general question about whether -every bit of information you’ve given us today has been the whole truth? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon and ask those two -questions. - -Mr. RUBY. One more thing—shouldn’t you ask me, or isn’t it necessary, -why I suddenly was so carried away to get involved in this serious -crime? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, that won’t work on the machine. - -Mr. SPECTER. We have to ask you a “Yes” or “No” question, and -we’ve already covered that by asking you the question about Mrs. -Kennedy—whether you didn’t shoot Oswald to avoid having her come to -trial. - -Mr. RUBY. Yes; that covers that. - -Mr. SPECTER. That covers that subject. - -Mr. RUBY. In other words, I can’t answer that truthfully and have -another reason for doing it; is that correct? - -Mr. SPECTER. Correct. - -Mr. RUBY. That would answer that? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. We’ve asked you all the reasons—— - -Mr. RUBY. But you don’t ask me why I did it, though? Why I was carried -away so much—you don’t ask me that. - -Mr. SPECTER. We did ask you—we asked you “Why did you shoot Oswald?” - -Mr. RUBY. But you don’t ask me why I got carried away so? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, it’s the same question. - -Mr. RUBY. Oh, it’s the same question. - -Mr. SPECTER. This is the same question—in the form of: “Did you do it -in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the travail of a trip to Dallas?” That -subject matter has been covered as comprehensively as we can through -the polygraph. - -Now, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon, and ask those final questions? - -Mr. HERNDON. I would like to proceed with, “Are you Jack Ruby?” - -Mr. SPECTER. That’s fine—that’s your line. - -Mr. HERNDON. Then, I’ll ask you. “Do you consider yourself to be a 100 -percent American patriot?” - -Then, what was the last question you wanted asked, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. “Is all of the testimony given by you today the complete -truth?” - -Mr. HERNDON. I think I can ask those questions now. - -Mr. Ruby, does this noise disturb you right now, are you conscious of -it or aware of it [referring to audible conversations between other -jail occupants outside this room]? - -Mr. RUBY. I hear it. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you all right? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired? - -Mr. RUBY. No; I’m all right. - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you getting a little tired? - -Mr. RUBY. I’m all right. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’ll ask you just these last few questions. Would you once -again kindly put your feet flat on the floor, and let’s put these back -so you will be comfortable. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:55 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. I will have to wait for the instrument to warm up just a -second. This will be series No. 11. - -(Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers one time.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready to proceed? - -Mr. RUBY. Yes. - -Mr. HERNDON. I’ll just ask these three questions, and once again, these -are more or less summation questions here, and I want you just to relax -and answer them simply, “Yes” or “No.” - -The series will now begin. - -“Are you Jack Ruby?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Do you consider yourself to be a 100 percent American -patriot?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. “Has all the testimony given by you today been the -complete truth?” - -Mr. RUBY. “Yes.” - -Mr. HERNDON. The series is over. - -(Reporter’s note: 8:59 p.m.) - -Mr. HERNDON. I have no questions, Mr. Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. That concludes the polygraph examination. - -Mr. HERNDON. Now, I will take all this paraphernalia off of you, Mr. -Ruby. - -Mr. SPECTER. I would like to have you sign your name about 10 times, -for us, Mr. Ruby, and would you put the date on this for us too? The -date is July 18, 1964. - -Mr. RUBY. Let me have my glasses, Joe. - -Mr. TONAHILL (handed glasses to Mr. Ruby). - -Mr. SPECTER. And now would you write the sentence at the bottom, “Now -is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.” - -Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Specter). - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you skip down and write that again. I would -like for you to write that three times in all, and you might sit down -and take a chair and do so. - -Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Specter). - -Mr. SPECTER. Very good. - -Mr. RUBY. What time is it? - -Mr. HERNDON. It’s 9 o’clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. I have five after nine—Dallas, Tex., time. - -Mr. RUBY. Joe, are you going to do what I asked you to? - -Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best. You know me well enough to know -that I’m going to do my best. - -Mr. RUBY. I know you well enough. - -Mr. HERNDON. You were very cooperative, Mr. Ruby. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Goodbye, Jack. Good to see you. - -Mr. RUBY. You’re going to do what I ask you to do? - -Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best. I told you I would. Everything I -do is for your best interest and I have worked awful hard. - -Mr. RUBY. I know. You are a big man and I know how big you can be. - -Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best, like I said, and not let -anything under the sun happen. - -Mr. RUBY. You know what I’m talking about? - -Mr. TONAHILL. I know exactly what you’re talking about. - -(Before leaving the room Mr. Ruby conferred briefly with Messrs. -Tonahill and Alexander out of the hearing of others in the room, and -departed with Chief Jailer Holman at 9:07 p.m.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM ROBERT BEAVERS - -The testimony of Dr. William Robert Beavers was taken at 9:10 p.m., on -July 18, 1964, at the Dallas County Jail, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Present -were: Bell P. Herndon and W. James Wood, special agents of the FBI; -Clayton Fowler and Joe H. Tonahill, counsel for Jack Ruby; William F. -Alexander, assistant district attorney for Dallas County, Tex.; and -E. L. Holman, chief jailer. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that it is 10 minutes after 9 p.m. -and that Mr. Ruby has departed in the custody of Chief Jailer E. L. -Holman and that we are reconvening for the purpose of taking testimony -from Dr. William Robert Beavers at the request of Mr. Fowler and Mr. -Tonahill. - -Dr. Beavers, would you stand and raise your right hand, please? Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this proceeding -before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President -Kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, -so help you God? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated please, and state your full name for -the record. - -Dr. BEAVERS. William Robert Beavers. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I am a psychiatrist and physician. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you set forth your home and office addresses, please? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. My home address is 4071 Northlawn Drive, Dallas. My -office is at 3911 Maple, Dallas, which is Woodlawn Psychiatric Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly your educational background, -please? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, I finished medical school here at Southwestern in -Dallas in 1953, interned in Wayne County General Hospital in Eloise, -Mich. I had a fellowship in pharmacology in 1954–55, spent 2 years -in the Air Force in the Arctic in research and returned; I was an -assistant professor of pharmacology for 3 years and during that time -I took a year of internal medicine at St. Paul’s Hospital here in -Dallas. Following this in 1960 I entered a residency in psychiatry -at Southwestern here in Dallas and completed the residency in 1963. -Following this, I went back on the faculty of the Medical School as -assistant professor of psychiatry. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, do you hold the latter position at the present time? - -Dr. BEAVERS. That’s correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you a member of any accredited psychiatric societies? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I’m a member of the Dallas neuropsychiatric group, -the Texas Neuropsychiatric Society and the American Psychiatric -Association. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now set forth the major items of your background -with respect to qualifications in the field of psychiatry? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Perhaps it should be mentioned that I am on the attending -staff at Parkland as a psychiatrist and that I consult at the Terrell -State Hospital as a psychiatrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion to examine Mr. Jack Ruby prior to -today? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; on numerous occasions prior to about 4 weeks ago, did -I see him. - -Mr. SPECTER. On approximately how many occasions have you examined Mr. -Ruby? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Without my records here, it would not completely accurate, -but it would be in the area of about 9 or 10 times, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe with respect to Mr. Ruby’s mental -condition during the course of those examinations? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I saw him first—can I get somebody to help me with a date? - -Mr. TONAHILL. April the 27th, the 28th, or 29th of this year. - -Dr. BEAVERS. The day that Dr. West first came down was on a Sunday. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, that was the 26th of April. - -Dr. BEAVERS. He testified Monday morning and then I saw Mr. Ruby first -on that Tuesday. - -Mr. TONAHILL. The 28th. - -Dr. BEAVERS. Right, and at that time he had briefly what I call -a psychotic depression, that is, he had evidences of auditory -hallucinations and a poorly defined but definite delusional system -which waxed and waned during the time of the interview, and he had -evidence of a severe degree of depression. - -Because of the combined symptoms of the hallucinatory activity, the -delusions in which, and I should spell them out, that he felt that both -members of his family, his close family, were being harmed, mutilated -and/or destroyed because of his crime, and further, that there was a -pogrom concerning Jews generally because of his crime. - -These symptoms plus the depression which was evident, caused me to -diagnose a psychotic depressive reaction. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now stated your conclusion regarding his mental -state? - -Dr. BEAVERS. At that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you set forth the essence of the underlying -factors relating to that conclusion? - -Dr. BEAVERS. In very brief nature—yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any different conclusion as to his mental -state today? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. I do. I think that as I have seen him, the depressive -element has diminished, and that the delusional system has become much -less open and obvious, and that it has become more fixed, and it seems -to—and this I’m not sure of—whether it waxes and wanes depending on -the time in the weeks or whether it waxes and wanes depending on the -closeness of the people that he sees. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, when you say that the state is much less open, do -you mean by that, that it is now more obvious? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Less obvious. - -Mr. SPECTER. Less obvious? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Less obvious. - -Mr. SPECTER. But is it present, notwithstanding the degree of how much -it is apparent? - -Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion it is. Yes. The thing that I’m trying to -make clear here is that you take a person that has a mental illness -which shows itself in delusions, that is, ideas that things that we say -aren’t real—they can be very uncertain and changing and very obvious, -and which the person will share them with just about anybody, or they -can be much more covert—hidden—and shared only seldom, and much more -fixed, not shifting around, but fixed. - -Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize his condition in your opinion -as he sat here today during the polygraph examination? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Based on—let’s see if I can give the specific things that -make me come up with this opinion—the relationship that he has with the -prosecuting attorney, the relationship he has with his attorneys; there -are certain kinds of actions and behavior in these two relationships -which fit better in my opinion with the continuation of a covert -delusional system concerning threat to his race, his family, based on -his presumed activity in a conspiracy, then it would fit with rational -realistic appreciation of the factors in his environment. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present today, Dr. Beavers, during the entire -course of the polygraph examination? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, was Mr. Ruby in contact with reality -during the course of the polygraph examination? - -Dr. BEAVERS. In the greater proportion of the time that he answered -the questions, I felt that he was aware of the questions and that -he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an -appreciation of reality. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any element of a delusional state present in the -answers which he gave during the course of this polygraphic examination? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I felt the only time that there were questions which -tapped any of the underlying delusional systems were the questions -relating to his opinion about the safety of his defense counsel and the -safety of his family, either past or present. - -It seemed to me, because he was fairly certain in his answers during -the trial run, and then following this during the actual run of the -polygraph, there was so much hesitation and uncertainty which resulted -in no answers, that we were seeing a good deal of internal struggle as -to just what was reality. - -His explanation following this, following the run of the polygraph, I -don’t think enlightened us very much in terms of what it was he was -actually feeling or thinking. - -Mr. SPECTER. But would you have concluded that he was delusional had he -stated that his family and his attorneys were in danger? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I’ve got to think about that. You can’t answer it “Yes”—if -it had been as strong a question as it might have been possible to -frame, but I feel that to get a perfectly accurate idea of what he -meant by it would require more than a “Yes” or “No” answer, but this -would have been one of things that had he answered it directly, that -would have led me to think that he had an area here where reality in -the testimony was poor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, does his refusal to answer that question during the -course of the polygraph examination, subject to the analysis that the -polygraphic examinations can bring to bear, indicate that he is not in -a delusional state? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I’m not sure I follow you here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, perhaps I can rephrase that. - -During the course of the polygraphic examinations, he is subject to -certain checks on truthfulness, at least to some extent. - -Dr. BEAVERS. I see what you’re getting at now. - -That would be an assumption, I think, on both our parts that I wouldn’t -make as to why he didn’t answer. It possibly could have been his trying -to protect in some way an answer from the polygraph. - -I felt it equally likely that it was the fact that it was the second -time through on the same question which he had answered first and -then there had been a lot of thinking going on, was a great deal more -opportunity for uncertainty. - -Mr. SPECTER. So, you think his first answer that his family and counsel -were in danger, indicated to some extent at least, a delusional state, -and then after he had had an opportunity to consider it, that he became -uncertain because of the greater opportunity to focus on what in your -opinion was a delusion to start with? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. This thing to me is complicated, maybe because—for -example, if I can digress for a moment. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; feel free to do that. - -Dr. BEAVERS. Chief Holman has told me a number of times and I have seen -it in a sense, he feels that this man has tried to seem delusional. On -the other hand, at times it is quite obvious that he is trying to seem -sane and becomes quite truculent and angry at people who imply that he -was in fact of unsound mind. - -One of the things I think that is extremely obvious in any of this -man’s discourse over a period of time is the marked ambivalence, that -is, the mixed feelings which are strong but on both sides of almost any -position that he has taken. - -This may be true at the time or it may be true sequentially, so that -on the one hand we see him trying to appear quite sane and according -to some testimony, at times he has not done this but in fact, not -according to my own testimony, but the statements that I have heard -from others, he has tried to appear a little bit more delusional than -the person thought that he was. - -Now, I felt that this answer that we saw the second time around was -consistent with the same attitude that he had when he came, when he -was stating very definitely that he was not of unsound mind. In other -words, it may have given him a little more time to cover. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from the questions to which you have referred on -the danger to counsel and family, did the delusional state which you -have characterized as his condition of today, have any effect in your -opinion on the polygraphic examination? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I can’t answer the question like it’s put, but I can -answer it this way, if I may, because I’m just not an expert on that -box over there. I don’t know that much about polygraph. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to the polygraph machine. Well, consider -the question rephrased in a manner that you find it convenient to -respond to? - -Dr. BEAVERS. All right. I felt that so far as my ability to evaluate -this man in responding to questions, that any delusional state did not -interfere with awareness of the past, with the presence of seemingly -adequate memory, with the presence of an apparently reasonable -appreciation of reality in reference to his whereabouts and his -behavior in the critical time that was under discussion. - -In short, he seemed to behave like a man with a well-fixed delusional -system in which whole areas of his thinking and his behavior is not -strongly interfered by the delusion. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that the major portion of the polygraphic examination -then, except for those parts which you have already referred to, would -not be affected in your opinion by what you have characterized as his -delusional state? - -Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion, the major portion of his appreciation of -questions and of his answers would be unaffected by the delusional -state. - -I just can’t, you see, in all honesty, answer something about what -the machine taps, because I think I would sort of be making a fool of -myself because I don’t know that much about polygraph. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Beavers, do you have an opinion as to whether the -polygraphic examination which was conducted here today hurt Mr. Ruby -mentally or physically in any way? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Well, after the period of time, I think we were all -fatigued. I think he was and I think everybody in the room was. I felt -that he was fatigued as the rest of us were, during the course of a -pretty long number of hours of interrogation. - -Whether this would come under the heading of any physical harm, I don’t -know. I would not consider it so ordinarily. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that fatigue diminish or evaporate with some rest -tonight? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I think so; I think so. I know what you’re trying to -get at and I’ll try to answer it the best I can. The question of -whether his mental state, and secondarily, a physical problem would be -seriously affected by having this interrogation, by having this man -take a polygraph examination. The one thing that this man has not been -ambivalent on since my acquaintanceship with him, and I mean that so -far as I can think of literally, the one area, the one subject that -he has not been having these mixed feelings about is the fact that he -did want to make this testimony, either with truth serum or with a -polygraph or some way of getting the truth out. - -Now, as a physician, and this was my role in these evaluations, not -at the time and so far until right now, not as somebody testifying, -I was concerned with his mental state, and rather early I felt there -would possibly be something useful so far as the man’s mental state, -if he could have a chance to tell his story. The mixture of what I -consider his delusional state surrounding the possible conspiracy -that people thought that he had, and therefore this tremendous number -of destructive actions, that were presumably going on, fitted to an -extent with some published reports of people’s opinions here and -abroad. In short, there has been a mixture of the delusional and of the -factual, a mixture of his confusion and a mixture of all other people’s -confusion, and he is aware of it and has been, because apparently he -gets newspapers. Apparently he has access to what both reasoned and -unreasoned statements that are made. Consequently, I felt that it -would be useful, if anything, that he be allowed a chance for this. I -haven’t stated this to anybody, I don’t think, because there were a lot -of other things that I could not evaluate. I’m not in a position to -evaluate the legal or other reasons that might not be useful. - -Mr. SPECTER. But with respect to his mental status, would it have been -your expectation prior to the time that the polygraph examination -started that it would have been beneficial rather than harmful to have -it conducted? - -Dr. BEAVERS. If anything, the odds are good that it actually wouldn’t -do much one way or the other in my opinion, but the feeling of getting -out the catharsis or the getting his story before the people that he -has felt, for example, including the State, that were involved in -some kind of action against people he cared for, because they assumed -erroneously there was some conspiracy, then this might have some -beneficial effect. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your conclusion after being present during the -course of the polygraphic examination as to whether it had beneficial -effect or not? - -Dr. BEAVERS. It’s hard to say. I think he held up rather remarkedly -well. At least, this is my opinion. I haven’t been present with -polygraph interrogations, but he certainly did not show undue stress, -either physical or emotional, and handled the questions better than -I thought he would. It did seem like he was getting, in a sense, his -day in court, which was by reasons of his, as I understand it, trial -procedure and presumed defense tactics not allowed him in the first -trial. This to me is what he kept coming back to during the course of -the examination, that he wanted to get his story out, and during the -times I have seen him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it your interpretation that the consequence during the -course of this polygraph examination may have the ultimate consequence -of benefiting him? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I think it could. I would suspect, if I tried to look and -see what would happen tomorrow, that he might be somewhat depressed. -This usually is what happens with somebody who has been looking forward -to something for a long, long time that’s going to be solving all of -his problems and it actually happens and nothing much is different, but -I think he will be depressed. - -Mr. SPECTER. If he is depressed tomorrow, is that what you would think -would be a temporary state? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I think it. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that that would not necessarily characterize the -longrun effects of this examination? - -Dr. BEAVERS. That’s correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you characterized a few moments ago his situation -as being fatigued, as we all were, do you think that he understood -all the questions which were being put to him and then answered them -responsively, or do you think that at some point his fatigue reached -such a point that he was not responding understandably to the questions? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I was impressed with the skill of the man giving the test. -I felt the breaks were fairly well spaced. He didn’t show an excessive -amount of fatigue, in my view, except before the first break. He seemed -to show more fatigue then than he did later on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of course, you observed his interest in pursuing a great -many topics and the difficulty really in bringing the examination to a -close. - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; which sort of fits with my feeling about the -depression a little bit in that he was aware that, well, “the show -is about over,” that his day in court was coming to a close, and I -suspect that the long-expected kinds of feelings probably were not as -great as he hoped for. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add which you think would be -helpful to the President’s Commission in any way? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I would only say that I think I’ll make it my business to -read up a little bit on some of the interrelationships between mental -illness and polygraph. When I state that I’m not an expert in this -area, it’s true. If by a combination of my readings, which I plan to -do, and my presence here and my previous and present views of Mr. Ruby, -I might be of help in forming an opinion, I will be available. - -Mr. SPECTER. If you find through that course of study that you have -anything to add, I’m certain the Commission would be interested in -having any supplemental observations or conclusions on your part. - -Mr. Fowler, do you have anything you would care to ask Dr. Beavers? - -Mr. FOWLER. I am requesting Mr. Tonahill to ask a few questions, if you -have no objection, which is not in the way of cross-examination but -just by way of a further development. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Tonahill. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Dr. Beavers, during the trial of Jack Ruby for the murder -of Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Bill Alexander, the assistant district -attorney, sought and obtained a death sentence for Jack Ruby for the -murder of Oswald, and I along with other counsel sought far less—an -acquittal or at least a number of years. You have noted, have you not, -here that Mr. Ruby resents my presence. He says I’m not his attorney -and then asked me to do him favors and this, that, and the other, -and you have noticed he has tremendous faith and confidence in Mr. -Alexander, who obviously is here to, in the event of another trial—and -in the event of Mr. Fowler’s efforts and mine to obtain another trial -for him is successful—he is here to obtain information for the benefit -and use of whatever information he can get to get another death penalty. - -Have you an opinion as to what goes on with reference to Ruby’s mental -illness that causes him to put faith in Mr. Alexander and no faith -in me. With reference to the question—is his mental state such that -he can’t aid and assist his lawyers in their efforts to appeal his -sentence and try to get him a new trial, and in his defense, and in the -management of his personal affairs, is he of such mental incompetency -that those things indicate to you that there is something in his mind, -something mentally ill about him that prevents him from realizing what -is best for him in his dealings with the prosecutor and his defense -attorneys, and in connection with managing his affairs and in helping -his defense attorneys in his ability, his capacity, his capabilities -of handling his personal affairs. What is your feeling about that -from what you’ve seen here today and what you’ve known from other -observations of Mr. Ruby? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Maybe I can get it in pieces and parts of that—I don’t -know. I think the question of mental competency in the hearing that’s -going to be coming up in the future, at least from what I read in the -newspapers, and I think possibly rather than an off-the-cuff answer, -you may have to sort of settle for a statement that I made concerning -his mental illness, because I don’t do a whole lot of legal work, -and I would be quite cautious in making a statement concerning the -specific legal questions about competency for affairs until I got more -acquainted with this particular statute. - -In other words, if you’re asking me a question about his mental status -and the mental illness, maybe I can make some comments. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Well, I was trying to do it, but I wanted to give you -a little range and you could pinpoint yourself down to such as the -episodes here today between the relationship of his own lawyers and his -apparent partiality to Mr. Alexander here. - -Dr. BEAVERS. This is what I referred to earlier, and I will be glad to -amplify it a bit. On the face of it, it seems to me that as far as an -awareness and appreciation of reality, there was this jeopardy—that -some of the behavior that he had toward Mr. Alexander as far as wanting -him very definitely to be in the room when he made certain damaging -statements concerning the amount of premeditation—this would not be -the actions of a wise and prudent man in my opinion. I think it does -fit more clearly with his previously stated delusional material to -me, that in fact there is a considerable body of people, the district -attorney’s office and district attorneys included, who do feel that -he is a part of a conspiracy, and that in fact either past, present -and/or future actions toward loved ones and toward members of his race -are going to be taken against these people because of this presumed -conspiracy. If this were the case, then it would make extremely good -sense that he would want Mr. Alexander here, and he would want him here -very definitely because he, instead of being wise and prudent in the -defense of his presumed safety and welfare at a future trial, he is -much more concerned with getting the truth out so that a whole host of -terrible things won’t happen. - -Now, in reference to his activities toward you [referring to Mr. -Tonahill], the ambivalence we talked about was beautifully illustrated. -He begins by reading you out, by firing you in a sense, and then later -on in the middle of the activities he begins to have a markedly warm -attitude toward you and begins to refer to you as, I think, “Joe,” -once again. A reverse I may have noticed of this, of two or three -changes back and forth, but they were both distinctly and clearly -expressed, which has been my experience and also my opinion based on -working with people who have this kind of a delusional system, that -they show consistently, that is, with somebody who is related to them -very closely—you’re going to catch hell and then you’re going to be -responded to in an effort of bringing you back. In other words, I think -there is a probability that the reasons for relating warmly to the -district attorney’s representative and ambivalently toward you are as I -have stated, and very slightly different from one another. - -Mr. TONAHILL. In his present mental state, do you feel he is capable -of conferring with Mr. Fowler and me and Mr. Burleson and aiding and -assisting us in an appellate effort in his behalf in reference to his -mental capacity? - -Dr. BEAVERS. This entails two questions—one, his mental state, and two, -how much in fact is involved in aiding you in this appeal. - -Now, to the first one, I hope and am reasonably confident of the -opinion I have given of this present mental illness at this time. As -to the latter, I have sort of opinions off-the-cuff from everything -that he needs to be pretty savvy and help you out, to the fact that it -doesn’t make any difference at all as to whether he can talk or not in -terms of an appeal, so I don’t know, because I don’t know No. 2. - -Mr. TONAHILL. You and Dr. Holbrook, Dr. John Holbrook, who has examined -him, and Dr. Stubblefield who has examined him, and Dr. West who has -examined him, all four psychiatrists and outstanding men—— - -Dr. BEAVERS. And Dr. Tanay. - -Mr. TONAHILL. And Dr. Tanay—five. Is it uniform agreement among -you five gentlemen that Jack Ruby is mentally ill and suffers with -psychotic delusions? - -Dr. BEAVERS. The last time I talked to the other four gentlemen you -have just mentioned, their opinion was the same as my own. I couldn’t -state if anybody changed their mind. Dr. Tanay, following his visit -here, and I had lunch together and discussed the case. At the time -that we talked to the judge, Dr. Stubblefield and I, and then some 2 -weeks later, shared our views, and they were in reasonably consistent -agreement. There was no disparity to speak of. Dr. West, I talked to by -telephone about 2 weeks ago, I believe. - -Do you remember when that was, Mr. Fowler? - -Mr. FOWLER. I think perhaps that would be a month ago, Dr. Beavers, or -somewhere thereabouts. - -Dr. BEAVERS. Well, it was after I came back from vacation. At any rate, -between 2 weeks and a month ago, I believe, and his view was that this -man was mentally ill, and further than that, that he was pretty much as -I have described him here. - -Mr. TONAHILL. And there have been instances where he rammed his head -into the wall and then tried to get his finger up in the light socket, -and then tried to rip the seam out of his trousers to kill himself, you -felt he was suicidal and should be protected from that effort, and all -of you agreed on that, I believe? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. It really wasn’t based on those actions as much as, -I think, the depression that I saw initially, which has cleared up -somewhat as he has gotten more delusionary. - -Mr. TONAHILL. You all felt that he should be out of jail and in a -mental hospital where he could get adequate mental care and mental -treatment, from psychiatric care and therapy medications? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I thought this and this was the recommendation of the -other doctors that saw him. - -Mr. TONAHILL. That would be Dr. Stubblefield, Dr. Holbrook, Dr. West, -and Dr. Tanay? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I’m not sure about Dr. Tanay. I don’t know that I heard -him state that specific thing. I do know that the recommendation of Dr. -Holbrook and Dr. Stubblefield and myself, and further that Dr. West, -made the same recommendation. I do feel that we had two problems. One -was security as well as medical care. I feel like maybe I was perhaps -a little bit more concerned about this than maybe some of the other -specialists; I don’t know. This just happened to be my own view, that -I was not only concerned about this man, hopefully finding a place for -hospitalization, but that it would have to be a place where he had -adequate security from without as well as any idea of suicide. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Is there anything unusual about a person who is mentally -ill and of unsound mind, still possessing keen memory faculties and -being able to recall things accurately and clearly as well as being -able to give responsive answers and to be in touch with reality? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Oh, I would say that many people of unsound mind are -deteriorated enough that they do not have adequate memory. Early -in the course of many mental illnesses a lot of the faculties, -including memory, are preserved, so that this in itself I don’t think -would—because he has an apparently good memory would not mean that he -is of sound mind. - -Mr. TONAHILL. That’s what I mean—that there’s nothing unusual about the -fact that he could still be of unsound mind and still have good recall -and good response to the questions asked by the polygraph operator? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I’m a little hung up on the term “unusual,” because to -me, this is a statistical matter when you put it in that phrase, and -then you would be talking about what percentage of people do and what -percentage of people don’t. - -Mr. TONAHILL. I don’t mean to do that. - -I meant to ask you specifically, can Jack Ruby be of unsound mind, -not know right from wrong, appreciate the nature and quality of his -actions, and still have a keen memory, a good memory, and give clear -response to questions that appear to place him in touch with reality? - -Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion this is possible for a person. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Is it reasonably probable from the standpoint of medical -certainty in your profession? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I think so. You have included a question that I find it -very difficult to answer—this business of right and wrong. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes. - -Dr. BEAVERS. I stated my opinion to the Dallas Criminal Bar Association -concerning this particular phraseology, and you asked it inclusive, in -terms of several things? - -Mr. TONAHILL. Well, with Mr. Alexander’s help, we’re going to eliminate -that from the criminal test for insanity in criminal law in Texas. - -I believe that’s all, unless Mr. Fowler has something. - -Mr. FOWLER. Let me ask one thing, Dr. Beavers. - -I believe that you do have a written report that you have submitted to -the court, is that correct? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, sir. Now, I submitted a written report about the -first evaluation, not to the court but to Mr. Burleson, who requested -my services on behalf of family. - -I then sent a shorter report, which included the major points and the -recommendations, to the attorneys, to the judge, to Sheriff Decker, and -I believe that’s all. - -Now, I assume, and I think it’s the case that probably the defense -attorneys passed the report on to the judge, but I did not send it -myself. - -Mr. FOWLER. In any of these reports, you have no objection to making -them available to this Commission? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Oh, no. - -Mr. FOWLER. If they are requested? - -Dr. BEAVERS. If the rights of the patient and the defense attorneys are -in agreement—if the rights of the patient are maintained—no, I have no -objection. - -Mr. TONAHILL. I think it would be nice, if you would, let him have -copies of all the reports you have written with respect to his illness, -and they would not involve any jeopardy of Mr. Ruby’s rights at all, if -you would mail them to Mr. Specter. - -Dr. BEAVERS. Would you like to have them? - -Mr. SPECTER. The Commission would be glad to receive any reports you -have or any other supplemental information that you may wish to provide. - -Dr. BEAVERS. I’ll be happy to. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have a question? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Just one or two questions. - -Do you recognize that late counsel for the defense, Mr. Fowler, did not -participate in the Jack Ruby trial and is not as aware of the facts -brought out in the investigation as perhaps I, who was in on it at the -first, or Mr. Tonahill, who was in on the trial? You appreciate that, -do you not? - -Dr. BEAVERS. You are saying that—— - -Mr. ALEXANDER. That Mr. Fowler got in so late on this thing that he -probably doesn’t know—that he is not as aware of the facts of the case -as I am? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I don’t know how I would know that. I know when he came -in, but how aware of the facts he is, I don’t know that. How would I -know that? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Did it appear to you that Ruby was looking to me for aid -in framing some of these questions because of my peculiar knowledge of -the case, in that I was in on it from the moment of the assassination -of the President? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I noticed that he did look to you in terms of getting some -sort of support or information or possibly framing questions. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. And you see nothing unusual in that, considering the -fact that I am probably the one person that has possession of the most -facts? - -Dr. BEAVERS. I think I have already covered what I felt was probable, -as far as what was going on with Mr. Ruby as to how he behaved here. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Did you feel that he wanted me particularly to know the -truth about certain areas or at least the truth as he represented it? - -Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. You did not feel that I took advantage of him in any way -here today, do you? - -Dr. BEAVERS. No, I thought you were extremely gentlemanly and -pleasantly helpful. - -Mr. TONAHILL. I am not making that comment. - -Mr. FOWLER. You have been the most cordial since we have been in this, -Bill. - -Let me make one other statement—this is relevant. - -Are you through, Bill? - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. FOWLER. I wish to make this statement for the record that at -some time during the course of this interrogation and hearing, that -I was called by Mr. Bill Decker, stating that a telephone call, long -distance, had been made to him. I answered the phone and Mr. Earl Ruby -and Mr. Sol Dann were on the phone speaking from Detroit. They wanted -to know what was going on and who had authorized this hearing, and why -I came down and why Mr. Tonahill was here, and why we did not stop the -hearing. - -I tried to the best of my ability to explain to him that I had talked -with Jack and has also explained to the Commission that we were of the -opinion that Mr. Ruby had certain rights that might be violated here, -but that this was entirely the wishes and demands of Jack Ruby himself, -and these matters had been set up prior to my entrance into the case -and prior to the entrance of Mr. Dann, and that I could not control -them. - -I was informed by Mr. Dann at that time that it was his intention -to immediately contact the Warren Commission in Washington and file -a criminal case, a case of assault and battery, against all parties -conducting this hearing, including myself and Mr. Tonahill. At this -point I was summarily fired, together with Mr. Tonahill, and I feel -that this matter of course is something that Mr. Dann is not aware of, -that all of this that has taken place here today—I think that we have -tried to protect the rights of Jack Ruby, and I put this in to merely -show that the call was made, and if any of you gentlemen have fear of -reprisal or for whatever purpose it might be, and that I am sure that -something further will be made of it. - -Again, I wish to state this that in my opinion, whether we are still -employed in the case, and I have not been fired by Jack Ruby, that we -feel absolutely that his rights have been protected. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. His brother Earl has not fired you either. - -Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the proceedings. Thank you all very much. - -Mr. ALEXANDER. Just one more thing. - -I myself will make no statement to anybody outside this room about -anything, and let me make the suggestion that whatever statement is -made, is made by Mr. Specter, if you want to agree on that. - -Mr. TONAHILL. In fact I think that if Mr. Specter is going to give this -statement, that if he tells them that a polygraph has been taken, I -don’t think any of the questions and answers should be given out. - -Mr. FOWLER. No; I very definitely and specifically request that these -matters that have been gone into here today be for the Commission and -the Commission only. It is our wish. - -Mr. SPECTER. That will be done. The Commission heretofore has made no -public statement of content to any extent. It has been the practice of -the Commission to announce only what witnesses have been heard, and -a very general statement of the witness’ status. In fact, Mr. Ruby -was insistent that there be a statement made in terms of his request -and his cooperation, and that had been discussed before as being the -appropriate limit of such a statement. It’s my view that that should be -followed up on, but no details of any sort stated as to his responses -or anything else that transpired in this proceeding today. - -Mr. TONAHILL. Yes; that he cooperated to the best of his ability. - -Dr. BEAVERS. Any questions that are asked me, I will refer to Mr. Arlen -Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Very fine, Dr. Beavers. - -Thank you very much. This will conclude these proceedings. - -Proceedings concluded at 10 p.m. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BELL P. HERNDON - -The testimony of Bell P. Herndon was taken at 2:05 p.m., on July 28, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Arlen -Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this is a deposition proceeding -of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Present today is Mr. Bell P. Herndon, a special agent of the Federal -Bureau of Investigation, who has been asked to testify concerning the -results of the polygraph examination administered to Jack Ruby in -Dallas, Tex., on July 18, 1964. - -With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you rise, please, Mr. -Herndon, and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this -deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HERNDON. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. HERNDON. My name is Bell P. Herndon. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation? - -Mr. HERNDON. I am a special agent of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied? - -Mr. HERNDON. I have been employed as a special agent going on 14 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. What specialty, if any, do you have with the Federal -Bureau of Investigation? - -Mr. HERNDON. I am presently the polygraph supervisor and polygraph -examiner assigned to the FBI laboratory, Washington, D.C. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, -please? - -Mr. HERNDON. I received a bachelor of science degree from St. Lawrence -University in 1947. - -I have been in the FBI since 1951 and have been employed as a special -agent primarily in field investigator work for approximately 10 years. -The past 4 years I have been fully assigned to the laboratory in the -capacity of a polygraph supervisor. - -Mr. SPECTER. What specialized training, if any, do you receive in order -to qualify for being a polygraph operator? - -Mr. HERNDON. Upon assignment to the FBI laboratory I underwent -an intensive 6-months training program under a doctor, Ph. D. in -psychology, who was a special agent polygraph examiner assigned to the -New York office. - -I also received considerable training from other special agents in the -FBI laboratory who had graduate work in physiology and law. - -After completion of 6 months’ intensive training, I was declared -qualified to handle polygraph examinations for the Federal Bureau of -Investigation. - -Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many polygraphic examinations -have you conducted during your service with the Federal Bureau of -Investigation? - -Mr. HERNDON. I have either given, supervised, or reviewed several -thousand polygraph examinations. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly just what the polygraph machine -is, and how it functions? - -Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph instrument, of course, is commonly known -to the public as the lie detector. In fact it is not such a device. -The polygraph is simply an instrument which is designed to record -certain physiological responses under stimuli in a carefully controlled -interrogation. These physiological responses may accompany and indicate -deception. It is used primarily as an investigative aid by the Federal -Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. SPECTER. From what does the machine derive its name “polygraph”? - -Mr. HERNDON. The name polygraph is derived from the Greek derivative, -poly meaning many, graph meaning writings and the actual polygraph -chart will portray several writings indicating physiological responses -of the examinee. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many writings are there specifically which are made by -the polygraph instrument? - -Mr. HERNDON. On the current polygraph used throughout the field the -instrument records three different physiological responses. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you identify those three physiological -responses, please? - -Mr. HERNDON. The first physiological response recorded on the polygraph -pertains to the pneumograph tracing, pneumo pertains to the respiratory -pattern of an individual. In other words, it records the inhalation and -exhalation tracings of the person as he is normally breathing. It also -records what we call the respiratory ratio, the ratio of the inhalation -stroke to the exhalation stroke. - -The second component utilized in the polygraph technique today is -generally called the psychogalvanic skin response. - -Mr. SPECTER. Spell that, please. - -Mr. HERNDON. Actually, it is referred to as the galvanic skin response, -galvanic. This particular response is obtained by electrodes placed on -the examinee’s hands or fingers, a small minute amount of electrical -current is passed through the skin, and the galvanometer will record -the minute changes in the electrical skin resistance of the skin or the -electrodermal response. - -The third component utilized in polygraph technique is the cardiograph. -This particular component measures the relative blood pressure changes -and also the changes in the heart rate or pulse beat. The tracing is -obtained by a pneumatic cuff being placed on the arm, usually the -left arm, a certain amount of pressure applied so that the mean blood -pressure can be obtained and the tracing is recorded on a moving sheet -of chart paper. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the development of the polygraph -instrument, please? - -Mr. HERNDON. Over the years psychologists and physiologists have been -aware of the fact that many people seem to respond physiologically -under emotional stress, one, of course, being under a stress of a -deception. - -The more serious lie a person tells, quite frequently he is likely to -have a physiological response. Over the years people who have dealt -with interrogation techniques have frequently noticed that when a -person is deceiving, that they visibly respond emotionally. In other -words, they may not look a person right in the eye. - -There may be a choking up of the throat. They may become flushed in the -face. Based on this general common sense observation, law enforcement -individuals who had psychological and physiological training decided in -about 1920 that if they could obtain an instrument to record certain -physiological, changes with regard to suspects in criminal cases, they -might be in a better position to perhaps determine whether or not the -person has been telling the truth. - -They developed an instrument which was eventually called the polygraph -or so-called lie detector. - -Through the years it has been used by law enforcement. It is primarily -used, as I said before, as an investigative aid, and it has been -helpful in that it can provide investigative direction to people in the -law enforcement profession. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is its level of reliability in indicating patterns of -deception? - -Mr. HERNDON. There has been no conclusive scientific objective study in -that regard, and as of today there are no valid statistics with regard -to its actual objective reliability. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to its level of reliability in -measuring patterns of deception in a normal person? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, the polygraph, of course, measures certain -physiological responses which have to be interpreted. It must be -clearly understood that the physiological responses that are portrayed -on a polygraph chart can often be caused by things other than -deception, such as fear, anxiety, nervousness, dislike, and many other -of these emotions. - -A polygraph examiner has to be extremely skilled and conservative in -his estimation as to whether or not it is deception. I cannot give you -any clear-cut personal opinion as to the validity of the technique with -regard to its percentage of reliability. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from an opinion as to percentage of reliability, -what is your opinion in a very general way as to the ability of a -well-trained, conservative examiner to detect a pattern of deception in -a normal person under appropriate standards of administration? - -Mr. HERNDON. Based on a hypothesis of all factors you mentioned, a -polygraph examiner under ideal conditions can generally interrogate -a person, and if he has been able to obtain what he considers good -control questions, he then may be able to come up with a conclusion -which would indicate whether or not a person is deceiving or not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what you mean by a control question? - -Mr. HERNDON. The control question is the question on which you would -expect the examinee to probably lie, or have some emotional response -which can be used for comparative purposes with regard to the relevant -questions of the interrogation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you give an example of what you mean by control -question, then? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I can. - -In a bank embezzlement case, a good control question with an individual -might be, “Have you ever stolen anything in your life that didn’t -belong to you?” - -In that regard it is expected the person would probably either hedge or -deceive, and, therefore, the examiner can usually have an indication -of whether or not this person will respond to a deception based on the -examinee’s response to that question. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, what is the policy of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation on the use of the polygraph examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. The FBI uses the polygraph technique purely as an -investigative aid, in very carefully selected cases. - -As I have said before, we feel that the polygraph technique is not -sufficiently precise to permit absolute judgments of deception or -truth without qualifications. The polygraph technique has a number of -limitations which must be considered by the examiner. The instrument, -again, I said before, is designed to record under proper stimuli -emotional responses in the form of physiological variations which may -accompany and indicate deception. - -Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would there be on a polygraph -examination if the subject were a psychotic depressive with respect to -mental condition? - -Mr. HERNDON. In that particular case, the FBI ordinarily would not -render a polygraph examination to any individual in which there was any -indication or evidence that he was psychotic. - -Mr. SPECTER. What validity would a polygraph examination have on a -person who was a psychotic depressive with respect to the mental -condition? - -Mr. HERNDON. The examination would be completely inconclusive or -invalid in view of the fact that a psychotic individual is divorced -from reality, and the tracings on his polygrams could not be logically -interpreted. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then is it necessary that a person be in touch with -reality and understand the nature of the questions and answers in order -for a polygraph examination to have any validity? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to conduct a polygraph examination -on Jack Ruby? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I did, on July 18, 1964. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at whose request was that polygraph examination -conducted? - -Mr. HERNDON. The examination of Jack Ruby was conducted at the specific -request of the President’s Commission. - -It is my understanding that Mr. Ruby specifically requested such a -polygraph examination to the Commission in a prior interview he had -with the Chief Justice. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the course of the entire session -when Mr. Ruby was questioned, both before, during and after the actual -administration of the polygraph examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And before the test was actually administered, did -anyone ask Mr. Ruby whether he wished to have a polygraph examination -conducted on him? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. I believe Mr. Ruby was asked that question by the -Commission. I am not sure of whether the defense attorney specifically -asked him whether or not he wanted to take it, but I know that they -were definitely against him taking the polygraph examination. - -In my initial discussion with Mr. Ruby, I again also asked him to -sign a voluntary waiver of consent to insure that he was freely and -voluntarily taking the polygraph examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was Mr. Ruby’s response on the question of -whether he wanted to take the polygraph examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. He clearly implied that he desired to proceed and take the -polygraph examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it an implication or was it a direct statement on his -part that he wanted the examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. It was a direct statement, and he signed the waiver of -consent. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was the polygraph examination conducted? - -Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph examination of Jack Ruby was conducted in -one of the rooms in the Dallas county jail. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time the examination was conducted? - -Mr. HERNDON. Present during the examination were Mr. Arlen Specter of -the President’s Commission, myself, representing the FBI, Special Agent -W. James Wood, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Dallas, Tex., -office, Mr. Ruby’s attorneys were present, one being chief counsel Mr. -Clayton Fowler, another attorney was present by the name of Mr. Joe -Tonahill. Also present during the examination was a representative of -the Dallas district attorney’s office, a Mr. William Alexander. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he present during the time of the examination or -during the preliminary discussion on questions only? - -Mr. HERNDON. He was present during the entire examination except for -that phase in which Mr. Ruby was actually responding to my questions -while he was actually on the instrument. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present? - -Mr. HERNDON. Also present during the entire polygraph proceedings was -a Dr. William Beavers, I believe, of Dallas, Tex., and a chief jailer, -I believe his name was E. L. Holman. There was a court reporter, Odell -Oliver, also present during the proceedings. - -Also present during the preliminaries of the proceedings was a -gentleman from the Dallas sheriff’s office by the name of Mr. Sweat, -who indicated that he was a polygraph examiner. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was a request made that he not be present during the -course of the examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. After consultation with Mr. Specter and myself, I believe -Mr. Specter made arrangement with the sheriff, Mr. Decker, that Mr. -Sweat not be present during the polygraph examination and further -proceedings. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the physical arrangement of the room with -respect to Mr. Ruby’s positioning during the time that the polygraph -examination was actually administered? - -Mr. HERNDON. I attempted to arrange Mr. Ruby in such a position -that there would be a minimum of distraction and disturbance to him -during the actual polygraph examination. He was placed rather closely -against a wall where there were no pictures or no distracting marks -or implementations on the wall. I also tried to place him in such a -position so that he could not readily see anyone else who was in the -room during the proceedings. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you successful in placing him in a position where he -could not see anyone else while the test was being administered? - -Mr. HERNDON. I believe he was in a position that only his secondary -vision from the sides would possibly give him the impression that -somebody was in the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, did the presence of the other people -in the room have on the administration of the test, in your opinion? - -Mr. HERNDON. Normally during a polygraph examination the only ones -in the room are the examinee and the examiner, and during Bureau -proceedings we usually have another agent in the room out of sight -that takes notes. It is considered an undesirable factor to have many -people present in the room during a polygraph examination, particularly -if these people are involved in any way in the case, such as the -defendant’s attorney or someone who has a personal and keen knowledge -in the proceedings. In this particular instance, it appeared to me that -Mr. Ruby divorced the presence of these people from his mind during his -response to the questions. However, it should be considered a factor -which is one that could tend to negate a valid conclusion with regard -to chart interpretation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you taken that factor, then, into account in your -evaluation of chart interpretation? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, did you hear the testimony of Dr. William -Beavers which was taken immediately following the administration of the -polygraph examination commencing at 9:10 p.m., on July 18, 1964? - -Mr. HERNDON. I heard his testimony. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear him testify in a conclusory fashion that: -“These symptoms,” referring to symptoms which he had described, “plus -the depression which was evident caused me to diagnose a psychotic -depressive reaction”? Did you hear him make that diagnosis? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. If that diagnosis is accurate, would there be any validity -in a polygraph examination of Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. HERNDON. There would be no validity to the polygraph examination, -and no significance should be placed upon the polygraph charts. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you further hear Dr. Beavers testify as follows: -“In the greater proportion of the time that he,” referring to Ruby, -“answered the questions, I felt that he was aware of the questions and -that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an -appreciation of reality.” - -Mr. HERNDON. I heard him so testify. - -Mr. SPECTER. If Mr. Ruby’s mental condition was accurately -characterized in that latter statement, then would the polygraph -examination have validity in accordance with the limitations which you -heretofore described? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, based on the hypothesis that Ruby was mentally -competent and sound, the charts could be interpreted, and if those -conditions are fact, the charts could be interpreted to indicate that -there was no area of deception present with regard to his response to -the relevant questions during the polygraph examination. However, I -have no specific information to my knowledge which would resolve the -hypothesis or the suggestion made by Dr. Beavers that Ruby was in fact -rational and fully competent at that time, and, therefore, I would -still have to render an inconclusive opinion with regard to the charts. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say in your last answer if Ruby was competent -or sane, by that do you mean the characteristics which Dr. Beavers -described, stated specifically, that he understood the questions and -the answers, that he was giving answers based on appreciation of -reality? - -Mr. HERNDON. I qualified my answer to the previous question because of -the fact, if you will recall, Dr. Beavers also testified later that it -is entirely possible for a person who is psychotic to still appear to -be rational and to be fully aware of reality. This particular testimony -is with regard to specific questions presented to Dr. Beavers by Mr. -Tonahill, and it is a known fact that certain psychotics at times can -appear completely rational and appear to be competent. - -Mr. SPECTER. The distinction on that, though, would be whether or not -they are, in fact, in touch with reality, understanding the nature of -the questions and answers, or whether they only appear to be in touch -with reality? Would that not be the key distinction that Dr. Beavers is -making in his testimony? - -Mr. HERNDON. I am not sure I follow you there, Mr. Specter. Will you -repeat that again? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You say that Dr. Beavers said that many psychotics -appear to understand the questions or appear to be in touch with -reality. - -Mr. HERNDON. He said it is possible, I believe, that a psychotic could -appear to be rational and have a good memory, but still be a psychotic -individual or psychotic personality. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but wasn’t the key distinction that Dr. Beavers was -making was whether or not, in fact, the individual did understand the -questions as opposed to whether he appeared to understand the questions? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I gather from Dr. Beavers’ testimony that in this -particular instance during this particular phase of the examination -with regard to two exceptions which he mentions, Ruby appeared to be -fully aware of the intent and the meaning of the question and was -rational in his reply. - -Mr. SPECTER. But didn’t he go beyond that, Mr. Herndon, that is he did -not use the qualifying term of Mr. Ruby’s appearing to be in touch -with reality, but said, and I will make the portion of the transcript -available to you: “I felt that he was aware of the questions and -that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an -appreciation of reality.” - -Now, you have read that along with me. The distinction I am making here -is that Dr. Beavers doesn’t say here that Mr. Ruby appears to be in -touch with reality, but that he, in fact, is, according to Dr. Beavers’ -conclusion, during the course of this examination, except for two areas -which I am going to come to, that Ruby was, in fact, in touch with -reality and did understand the nature of the questions and answers. - -Mr. HERNDON. I recall he did specifically make that comment. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that whatever ultimate conclusions flow from whether -Ruby was psychotic or whether he was in touch with reality are -beyond your ken as a polygraph examiner? You merely rely on what the -psychiatrist says in formulating your conclusions; is that not so? - -Mr. HERNDON. That is correct, Mr. Specter. I would defer to -psychiatrists, of course, with regard to whether or not a person is -mentally competent or not. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that if Mr. Ruby was psychotic, then the polygraph -examination would have no validity? - -Mr. HERNDON. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And if, on the other hand, Mr. Ruby was competent and -in touch with reality, understanding the nature of the questions and -the content of his answers, then the polygraph examination would have -validity? - -Mr. HERNDON. Under that theory, then the polygraph examination could -be interpreted, and there would be a conclusion rendered, still -considering, of course, all the limitations of the polygraph technique, -of course. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what two areas of questions did Dr. Beavers exclude -in the portion of his answer which you and I just read together? - -Mr. HERNDON. Dr. Beavers made specific reference to two questions -which were originally drafted by himself, Dr. Beavers. These questions -were in regard to whether or not Ruby believed his family were harmed -or have been harmed, whether or not his family have been harmed for -what he did, and the other question was in regard to whether or not he -believed his chief counsel, Mr. Fowler, was in danger for defending -him, Ruby, that is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And as the record will show, those were the two questions -that Dr. Beavers referred to where he felt Ruby was out of touch with -reality when he answered them during the course of the polygraph -examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. And focusing for just a moment on those two questions -before we proceed to your conclusions, what answer did Mr. Ruby give to -the question as to whether his family had been harmed as a result of -what he did? - -Mr. HERNDON. During the actual polygraph examination, when that -question was asked, Mr. Ruby failed to respond either yes or no. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any portion of the overall examination which -precedes the time when the machine is activated and the needles are -operating, so to speak? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. During the pretest interview, the actual questions -are carefully discussed with the examinee, in this case Mr. Ruby, so -that he fully understands the intent and the meaning of the questions. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that a normal part of a polygraph examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. That is a standard procedure in a polygraph interrogation -technique. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the purpose for that? - -Mr. HERNDON. The purpose of that primarily is to be sure that the -examinee fully understands the question and that there are no problems -of surprise or semantics. It also psychologically conditions the -subject in that he commits himself prior to the test and will be -conditioned to know that the question will be asked again and he will -have to make a decision as to how he is going to answer it, and whether -or not he is going to attempt to deceive. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what answer did Mr. Ruby give to the question about -whether his family had been harmed as a result of what he did during -the course of the preliminary discussion session? - -Mr. HERNDON. To be sure; could we just check the transcript on that? I -believe he did say yes, with regard to that question. - -Mr. SPECTER. Certainly. Please do check the transcript, or your notes, -either way which would be most expeditious. (Pause.) Have you now had -an opportunity to check the transcript on that last answer, Mr. Herndon? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have reviewed the transcript, and with regard to -both those questions Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Mr. SPECTER. During which portion of the examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. This was during the pretest interview. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say he gave “yes” answers to both questions, -you mean the question about “did he think his family had been harmed -as a result of what he did,” and also the question about “whether -his defense counsel, Mr. Clayton Fowler, was in danger as a result of -representing Mr. Ruby”? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; in both instances he volunteered yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Herndon, based on the hypothesis or assumption -that Mr. Ruby was in touch with reality, and understood the nature of -the questions, and the quality of his answers, what opinion did you -formulate, if any, as to patterns of deceptiveness on the relevant -questions during the polygraph examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. Based on the hypothesis that you just gave, Mr. Specter, -a review of the polygraph charts would indicate to me, if in fact -Ruby was mentally competent and sane, that there was no indication of -deception with regard to the specific relevant pertinent questions of -this investigation. - -Mr. SPECTER. At this time, Mr. Herndon, I would like to take up the -first series of questions and answers, and ask you to state for the -record what they were and what graph readings you took by way of -elaborating upon the conclusion which you just gave. - -For the record I shall mark that first chart as Herndon Deposition -Exhibit No. 1. - -(The document referred to was marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 1 -for identification.) - -Mr. HERNDON. As I review the first polygraph chart I notice that I made -a notation at 1 p.m., that Ruby’s attorneys agreed to let Mr. Ruby -take the test. I actually started my adjustments of the instruments -on Mr. Ruby at 3 p.m. In this regard, I believe it proper to state -that I was using a Stoelting deceptograph model 22500 which utilizes -three components, the pneumograph, the galvanic skin response, and -the cardiograph. Also utilized during the examination was a Stoelting -polygraph subject chair. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the chair used during the course of this -examination, please? - -Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph subject chair is so designed to adjust the -level of the arms and to give complete and full support to the arms. -This is necessary to provide a minimum of restriction or pressure on -both of the arms of the examinee. This is desirable in order to obtain -the best possible tracing with regard to a person’s relative blood -pressure changes and relative changes in the heart rate. It is also -desirable to obtain the best possible tracing of the electrodermal -responses or the galvanic skin responses. The chair is also constructed -so that the person will generally refrain from slouching or crossing -his legs during the examination, both of which are undesirable. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you now then proceed to testify about the recordings -on the chart? - -Mr. HERNDON. I also notice with regard to the room that the lighting in -the room was incandescent and not fluorescent, this possibly being a -factor in the tracings with regard to the galvanic skin response. The -incandescent lighting is much preferable, and, therefore, I feel that -there was no outside electrical disturbance with regard to the tracing -of the GSR, galvanic skin response. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate just a little more on why you think -the lighting would have an effect on the galvanic skin response testing -device? - -Mr. HERNDON. I made a notation of this fact in my notes, in view of the -fact that it has been evident in the past that fluorescent lighting at -times has interfered with proper tracings with regard to the galvanic -skin response. - -Mr. SPECTER. And fluorescent lighting was present here? - -Mr. HERNDON. No, fluorescent lighting was not present here, and the -desirable or preferable incandescent lighting was present. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that that would have a beneficial effect on eliminating -a potential source of interference? - -Mr. HERNDON. Not beneficial, but it would not necessarily hinder the -tracing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. - -Proceed. - -Mr. HERNDON. During my initial adjustments of Mr. Ruby to the -polygraph, I noticed that he had a breathing rate of approximately 21 -cycles per minute, which is well within normal respiratory patterns. -I noticed that his heart rate was approximately 78 beats per minute, -which is well within normal heart rate of individuals, and that -there appeared to be no physical problems with regard to obtaining a -satisfactory cardiogram, which monitors the cardiovascular system. - -During series 1, two relevant questions were asked which were pertinent -to the investigation. - -Question No. 4, in which Ruby was asked, “Did you know Oswald before -November 22, 1963?” - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was his response to that question? - -Mr. HERNDON. To that question he responded, “No,” and an interpretation -of the charts based on the premise that Ruby was mentally sound and -competent would fail to indicate any physiological response which would -be suggestive of deception. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that there was -no deceptive response elicited to that question? - -Mr. HERNDON. This conclusion is actually based on my interpretation and -study of the overall charts which are still to come up. Actually, in -series 1, I noticed, however, that Mr. Ruby did respond physiologically -to a control type question: “Have you ever been arrested?” - -This physiological response was in the form of a rather noticeable rise -in his blood pressure. To this particular question he did answer “Yes,” -and later explained that he had been arrested for dancing after curfew -at his own place. - -He indicated by his answer that he was somewhat embarrassed by this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that for dancing after curfew or for permitting others -to dance after curfew? - -Mr. HERNDON. I got the interpretation from his comments that it was -permitting dancing, and him also being possibly involved in the party -after curfew hours. This, to me, does indicate, if in fact Ruby was -mentally competent, that he was capable of displaying emotional -responses on the polygraph, in this instance not necessarily deception, -but some concern, as portrayed by the relative rise in blood pressure. - -During series 1 Mr. Ruby was also asked another relevant question, -question No. 6, which was pertinent to the investigation, that question -being: “Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?” - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was his answer to that question? - -Mr. HERNDON. To that question he responded “No,” and if in fact he was -mentally competent at the time he answered that question, the charts -could be interpreted that there was no physiological response to the -stimulus of the question. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say “could be interpreted,” Mr. Herndon, do you -mean that that was your opinion or your conclusion as to whether there -was a physiological response? - -Mr. HERNDON. I wish to qualify my opinion here based on the fact that I -am responding under the hypothesis proposed by you that this chart is -being interpreted, that Ruby is of sound mind, and was rational in his -mental process when responding to this question. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. - -As I understand it, that is your basic hypothesis or assumption in all -of your answers to interpretation? - -Mr. HERNDON. Fine, if we will keep that in mind. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. I think that is fair and I think we have put that on -the record at the start so that whatever you interpret here is based -on the assumption that he was in touch with reality, understood the -questions, and knew what he was answering. - -Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. But the point I was coming to was, you said it “could be -interpreted” that there was no pattern of deception, and my concern was -whether there was any deliberate qualification in your answer on “could -be interpreted” or whether it was your positive interpretation that -assuming he knew what he was talking about and was sane, that there was -no pattern of deception in his negative answer on the question of, “Did -you assist Oswald in the assassination?” - -Mr. HERNDON. To answer that question, Mr. Specter, I would have to go -back to my original statement that the polygraph technique is not -considered precise enough to make absolute statements of deception -or nondeception, so, therefore, any time I make any observation it -would be using probably a qualified word such as “appeared to indicate -deception” or “suggestive of deception,” keeping in mind that, of -course, there are many emotional responses that I am not in a position -to evaluate, such as fear of being falsely accused, dislike for the -people in the room, other factors which may tend to negate positive -statements that here in fact this thing is meaning he is not lying. - -Mr. SPECTER. On that particular question, were there any indicators at -all that he was deceiving in his answer to question No. 6, to wit: “Did -you assist Oswald in the assassination?” - -Mr. HERNDON. Other than a slight impact in the GSR, there was no -noticeable change in his physiological responses to that particular -question. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the slight impact that you referred to in the -GSR, meaning galvanic skin response? - -Mr. HERNDON. The impact here not being significant enough to make any -specific evaluation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then were there any other relevant questions in the first -series? - -Mr. HERNDON. There were no other relevant questions in the first series. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else in the first series which is -significant enough to comment on by way of analysis of the overall -examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. No other than to say that the total chart minutes for -series 1 was 2 minutes 25 seconds in duration of time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any fixed limitation on how long a series can run? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, it is generally conceded that a person should not -be run on the polygraph beyond perhaps 4 minutes, inasmuch as after -that time the pressure on the arm cuff can become discomforting and -irritating to the examinee. - -In view of the fact that there was a question here of possible effect -on Ruby’s health, I attempted to maintain all my questioning within -an approximate 3-minute period to insure no damaging effect on his -physical condition. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any overall limitation on the amount of time that -a person can appropriately take a polygraph examination? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there is a limitation. Certainly if a person is -interviewed with polygraph at great length, in due time he is bound to -become desensitized to the technique. In other words, the pressure on -his arm and the technique itself becomes less valid as the increase in -time proceeds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever become desensitized to the technique? - -Mr. HERNDON. I believe in the last series of the first session, which -I believe is series 4, Mr. Ruby showed some indications of becoming -fatigued and displayed some tiredness in the charts. Also, I might add -in the latter phase of the examination, in the latter series, there was -some indication that he was approaching this desensitization that I -have mentioned before. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings from -series of 1? - -Mr. HERNDON. I think so. There might be one other thing I will just -mention here, and that is in question 5 with regard to, “Do you use -the middle name Leon” there were some noticeable changes in the -physiological tracings. However, these were caused by his laughter and -talking in which he later explained that he sometimes used the name, -but other times he doesn’t, and that the name Leon is sentimental to -him. That is the only other noticeable variance in his normal tracing -that I wish to comment on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let us then proceed now to series 2 and mark that Herndon -Deposition Exhibit No. 2, if we may, please. - -(The document referred to was marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 2 -for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to that chart, what significant findings -were there on that chart? - -Mr. HERNDON. The only significant change physiologically during series -No. 2 was in Mr. Ruby’s response to the question, “Have you ever been -known by another name?”, as portrayed by an increase in his blood -pressure. He answered this question with both a yes and a no, and after -the series was completed there was some discussion with regard to the -question. He mentioned that he was uncertain how to answer the question -because he had originally used the name of Jack Rubenstein and that -he had legally changed it at a later date. Other than some variations -in the pneumograph which were caused by his hesitating to answer due -to the length of the questions provided, there is no other significant -physiological change noticed in series 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what were the relevant questions in series 2? - -Mr. HERNDON. The relevant questions in series 2 were No. 3 “Are you now -a member of the Communist Party?” in which there was no significant -physiological change. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his response there? - -Mr. HERNDON. He responded “No,” to that question. - -On question No. 5, which is considered relevant, he was asked, “Have -you ever been a member of the Communist Party?” He responded “No,” and -there is no significant response recorded. There is an adjustment on my -behalf of the cardiogram tracing. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Mr. Herndon? - -Mr. HERNDON. Where this arrow is placed, and I brought down the tracing -to a lower level so that I could see if there would be any subsequent -rise. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was it a consistent tracing thereafter indicating no -deviation? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. The cardiogram is interpreted as being consistent, -and no significant change or deviation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what other relevant questions were asked in that -series? - -Mr. HERNDON. Question 7, “Are you now a member of any group that -advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?” There is no -significant change in his relative blood pressure, and the only change -significant in his breathing pattern which by chart interpretation was -caused by him hesitating to answer the question due to its length. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his response to that question? - -Mr. HERNDON. He responded “No” to question No. 7. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other relevant questions in that group? - -Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 8 was relevant. It was, “Have you ever been -a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. -Government?” Here, again, he responded “No.” There was no significant -change. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you start that again? - -Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 8 was “Have you ever been a member of any -group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?” - -This is a relatively long question for polygraph technique, and I note -that there was some hesitation in the pneumograph tracing, in view -of the fact he had to wait for the question to be completed before -he could respond. He eventually did respond “No” and there was no -significant change in his physiological tracings. The total chart -minutes, that is the time that he was actually on the polygraph from -the beginning to the end of this particular series, was 2 minutes 30 -seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other relevant questions in that group? - -Mr. HERNDON. There were no other relevant questions in that group. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings in that portion -of the test on series No. 2? - -Mr. HERNDON. There was a control question “did you ever make a false -official statement” to which he responded “No.” There was a very minor -change in the cardiograph tracing as portrayed by a slight decrease in -the relative blood pressure. However, it is not considered significant -enough to make any additional statements. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now you have given us all the relevant findings for series -No. 2; is that correct, Mr. Herndon? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let us now proceed to the next series and mark the next -series as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 3. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you start off on the third series, Mr. Herndon, by -telling us what were the relevant questions and the responses thereto, -if any? - -Mr. HERNDON. During series 3, there were three relevant questions -asked. No. 3: “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody -you know tell you they knew Oswald?” - -He responded “No,” and there was no significant physiological change -recorded on the polygraph. There is a noticeable change in the -pneumograph pattern. However, this has been interpreted again as being -caused by the relatively long length of this particular question. - -Question No. 5 was: “Aside from anything you said to George Senator -on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to -shoot Oswald?” In comparison to his overall chart, there is nothing -of particular significance in his physiological responses to this -question, when he responded “No” to question 5. - -Question No. 8 was: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?” -This again being a relevant question. He responded “No.” There was no -significant deviation in his physiological responses to this question. - -During series 3 he was asked two control-type questions in which he -did respond significantly with regard to the physiological tracings. -Question No. 4 was asked: “Are you married?” Mr. Ruby responded “No.” -An interpretation of his polygrams reveal a rather significant rise in -his relative blood pressure. He also produced a rather vivid impact on -the GSR tracings, and there was noticeable staircase suppression in -his pneumograph pattern. This question was later discussed with Mr. -Ruby, and he said that he was thinking of a young girl by the name of -Alice Nichols who he had previously considered marrying. He admitted -that he felt something “working on him,” with regard to this particular -question. An analysis of this question would indicate that Ruby did -emotionally respond to the stimulus of the question “Are you married,” -and his thoughts of a former sweetheart. This does not indicate that -there was any deception of course, but does suggest Mr. Ruby does -respond physiologically to certain emotions that he feels when he -hears the questions and decides how to answer them. In a sense this is -a control-type question. Also in this series, in question No. 7, Mr. -Ruby was asked: “While in the service did you receive any disciplinary -action?” There is a noticeable rise in his blood pressure after he -responded “No.” This question had been discussed rather thoroughly with -him, and after the series was run, he admitted that he had been called -in before his commanding officer regarding a brawl he had while in the -military service. He also commented: “Evidently you are getting a good -reading.” This could be interpreted as a deception pattern inasmuch as -in his mind he realized he had been in some trouble in the military -service; however, did not want to truthfully answer the question as he -considered it insignificant. - -However, he did admit that he had been in some trouble with his -commanding officer regarding fighting. This is considered a control -question, and its response is greater than his response to the previous -relevant question which I had related. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any difference in psychological reactions, -Mr. Herndon, on a pattern of deception which the subject considered -insignificant as opposed to a pattern of deception which the subject -considered significant? - -Mr. HERNDON. Generally the concept of the polygraph technique is that -we are attempting to find out what a man’s physiological responses -will be in any area where he is attempting to deceive. The content of -the actual deception is not particularly important. We want to get a -tracing of where he is attempting to deceive. Now under a situation -such as Mr. Ruby was in here, it is more probable that he is more -concerned about these relevant questions than these irrelevant or -control-type questions. In other words, the relevant questions have -more to do with his well-being or what he is trying to prove to the -Commission. However, the chart here still shows that he attempted to -deceive with regard to what he considered insignificant, but it tends -to indicate to me that he will respond to a practice of deception, if -that answers your question. - -Mr. SPECTER. What I am driving at here is whether there is any gage in -whether he considers it insignificant or significant in the reading. -Stated differently, there would be a response even though he might -consider a question to be insignificant. - -Mr. HERNDON. That is right. If there is an attempt on his part to -practice deception, if he again, as I say, is competent and reasoning -rationally. In general practice of polygraph work, generally speaking -the control questions are of lesser severity than the actual pertinent -questions, but in those cases where the person appears to be telling -the truth, we find that they will respond more to the control questions -than the critical question, even though the critical question has more -potency and is more severe with regard to his well-being. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings on that chart? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Mr. Ruby also responded significantly in a -physiological sense with regard to question 9: “Have you ever served -time in jail?” He failed to actually respond yes or no. However, there -was a decrease in his blood pressure, a moderate impact in the GSR, and -a change in the baseline of his pneumograph tracing. The fact that he -actually failed to say yes or no precludes my interpretation of whether -or not this is an indication of deception, but it does indicate that -Ruby did experience a physiological variation from his normal pattern -with regard to this question which is of a control-type nature. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete then the relevant findings on that -chart? - -Mr. HERNDON. That concludes series No. 3. It might be worthwhile to -record that the total chart minutes on this particular series was 2 -minutes 45 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let us then mark the next series, which is series 3a, as -Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 4. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you start there on series 3a with the relevant -questions, the responses and your evaluation of any significant -psychological deviation, please? - -Mr. HERNDON. This particular series 3a was what would be called a -modified peak of tension series. Ruby was carefully instructed prior -to the series that four relevant questions were going to be asked in a -consecutive order. - -Question No. 3: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?” -He responded “No.” - -Question No. 4: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday -morning?” He responded “No.” - -Question No. 5: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Saturday night?” -He responded “No.” - -Question No. 6: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?” -He responded “Yes.” - -These are the only relevant questions in this series. A review of -the chart with regard to his responses in this series reveals that -Ruby’s blood pressure continually rose from the question No. 3 until -it reached a peak just as question No. 6 was asked. In addition it -was noted that there was a rather noticeable change in his breathing -pattern as question No. 6 was approached. There is a slight impact in -the GSR tracing as question No. 6 is approached. This would mean to me -in interpreting the chart that Ruby reached a peak of tension as the -question No. 6 was about to be asked in which he responded “Yes” to -“Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?” This particular -type of series cannot be interpreted with regard to whether or not -there was any deception, but it does indicate that Ruby built up a -physiological peak of tension to the time of Sunday morning with regard -to his decision of shooting Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any correlation between the building up of a peak -of tension and the accurate answer to the series? - -Mr. HERNDON. In normal usage of polygraph technique where a peak of -tension is used, if the series is effective, the party will usually -respond to a particular item which happens to be the most pertinent -with regard to the offense. In this case it appears that Ruby projected -his entire thoughts and built up a physiological peak of tension to the -point of Sunday morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant readings on Exhibit No. 4? - -Mr. HERNDON. There is no other significant reading on series 4. The -total chart minutes was 2 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s move on then to series No. 4 and we will mark that -as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 5. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you to start on that one, Mr. Herndon, by -giving us the relevant questions and answers to those relevant -questions and the responses, if any? - -Mr. HERNDON. I believe this is series No. 4. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; series No. 4, and we have marked it as Exhibit No. 5. -We are one out of number now since we have used an “A” series. - -Mr. HERNDON. In series No. 4, Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant -questions. - -Question No. 2: “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant -Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit?” He responded “Yes.” - -Question No. 4: “Did you enter the jail by walking through the -alleyway?” Mr. Ruby responded “No.” - -Question No. 6: “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant -Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 8: “Did you talk with any Dallas police officer on Sunday, -November 24, prior to shooting Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -With regard to chart interpretation on this particular series of -questions, it is difficult to interpret because this is the first -series where Mr. Ruby tends to show a little fatigue in that he took -several deep breaths, could not refrain from moving his foot and the -rest of his body, and, in general, the chart is relatively difficult to -interpret. - -However, considering these body motions and his irregular breathing, -there appear to be no significant physiological variations with regard -to his response to the relevant questions as projected in that series. -There is one question in which he displayed a moderate rise of blood -pressure, and that was in regard to an irrelevant question No. 5: “Are -your parents alive?” In which he stated “No.” He was questioned about -this after the series was over, and he advised that he felt a little -nervous during this series, but that particular question didn’t give -him any trouble. His breathing is quite irregular throughout this -series, and I have a notation on my chart that I advised Mr. Specter -that Mr. Ruby was beginning to show some signs of fatigue, and it was -mutually agreed that we would have a recess at this point. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did that recess last, Mr. Herndon? - -Mr. HERNDON. This particular series began according to my charts at -4:35 p.m., and the next subsequent series began at 6:48 p.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the important findings on series -4? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s move on now then to series No. 5 and mark that as -Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 6. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you to start with the relevant questions again, -and give us the answers and any significant physiological deviation. - -Mr. HERNDON. This particular series which my notes refer to as series -No. 5 began at 6:48, and Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions. - -Question No. 2: “Did you see the armored truck before you entered the -basement?” He replied “No.” - -Question No. 4: “Did you enter the police department through a door at -the rear on the east side of the jail?” He responded “No.” - -Question No. 6: “After talking to Little Lynn did you hear any -announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?” He responded “No.” - -Question No. 8: “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning, -did anyone tell you the armored car was on the way to the police -department?” He replied “No.” - -The one particular thing of interest with regard to overall -interpretation of this chart is how Ruby showed considerable more -relaxation and appeared to be completely at ease after the recess. -There was no physiological variation of any significance noted with -regard to his replies to the relevant questions. There is some -deviation with regard to his pneumograph tracing at question No. 7, -which is considered a control-type question. This question was: “Other -than what you told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of a -weapon?” He responded to this question by talking. However, he later -asked that the question be repeated. The question was repeated during -the series, and he responded “No.” The only significant deviation from -his normal pattern was recorded in the pneumograph, and this was caused -by his talking in response to the question the first time it was asked. - -There is nothing else significant noted in series No. 5. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s proceed then to series No. 6 and we will mark that -as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 7. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Do you want the total chart minutes? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please give us that. - -Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes of series 5 was 2 minutes 55 -seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show now that we have marked series No. -6 as Herndon Exhibit No. 7. Would you now, Mr. Herndon, specify the -relevant questions, responses, and psychological deviations, if any? - -Mr. HERNDON. In series No. 6 Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions. - -No. 2: “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store -during the week before the assassination?” He replied “No.” - -Question No. 4: “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal -addressed to a Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?” - -He replied “No.” - -Question No. 6: “To your knowledge did you or any of your friends -telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 and 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He -replied “No.” - -Question No. 8: “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge -telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He -replied “No.” - -From a review of Mr. Ruby’s polygrams, on series 6, it was noted that -there were no significant physiological variations to his response to -the relevant questions. It was noted that Mr. Ruby did display slight -suppression in his breathing pattern, and a relative decrease in blood -pressure with an increase in the heart amplitude at question No. 7. -This question was: “Did you ever overcharge a customer?” Mr. Ruby -replied “No.” However, after the series, this question was discussed -with him briefly, and he did make mention of the fact that there had -been some trouble at his nightclub with regard to the waitresses and -big bills. This could be interpreted as a possible deception pattern -in that he hedged with regard to the question “Did you ever overcharge -a customer.” The total chart minutes of series No. 6 was 2 minutes 50 -seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant findings on series 6? - -Mr. HERNDON. The only significant finding being that the control -question 7 displays a more significant variation than his response to -the relevant questions. There are no others. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have now given us then all the significant findings on -series 6? - -Mr. HERNDON. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are now placing the -designation Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 on series No. 7. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you start again, Mr. Herdon, with the relevant -questions and tell us the answers and the responses thereto with any -significant findings? - -Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 7 contains four relevant questions. - -Question No. 2: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on -Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” Mr. Ruby -replied “No.” - -Question No. 4: “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Mr. -Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 6: “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday -night?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 8: “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the -Friday midnight press conference at the jail?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -There was one other question asked which I consider irrelevant. -However, it is of value to the series, and I will make mention of it, -question No. 9: “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the -entire truth?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.” - -With regard to overall interpretation of series No. 7, I first noticed -there is a physiological deviation to Mr. Ruby’s response to question -No. 1 which was “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully.” -However, my notes indicate that Mr. Ruby talked and said “Yes, I do,” -and by actually speaking several words it is believed that this caused -the variation in the tracings. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will movement or speaking cause a variation in the -tracings ordinarily, Mr. Herndon? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Body movements or speaking any phrase or sentence -would certainly cause changes in the physiological patterns as -displayed on the polygraph. I made notation of that, however, and -that explains the changes. On question No. 2, Mr. Ruby did show -a significant drop in the relative blood pressure. This question -pertained to: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on -Friday November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” I asked -him about this question later when he responded “No,” and I noticed a -physiological change. He advised that there was some man by the name of -John Rutledge, and he made an association with proceedings at the trial -which I have reason to believe this gentleman, John Rutledge, differed -somewhat with what Ruby stated as to when he went to the synagogue. - -Due to the nature of this change, however, it is possible that it was -caused by a body motion that I failed to detect during the actual -response. - -I notice that the cardio pen dropped all the way down and hit what we -call the limit screws. This frequently is caused by a sudden rapid -shift in his body position, and this change could have been caused by a -body movement. - -With regard to the other relevant questions in this series, question 4, -question 6, and question 8, there was no significant deviation from his -normal physiological patterns. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings, in series No. 7? - -Mr. HERNDON. There was a significant change in his breathing pattern -and also a slight decrease in his blood pressure when I asked him the -question “Did you attend the synagogue regularly?” - -However, this is a control type question, and as later discussed with -him, there was some area of doubt in his mind as to whether he attended -the synagogue regularly as much as he would like to. The total chart -minutes on series 7 was 2 minutes 55 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the relevant findings on chart No. -7? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I have affixed Herndon Deposition -Exhibit No. 9 to series No. 8. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I hand it to you with the request that you give us the -findings there starting with the relevant questions. - -Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 8 contained five relevant questions. - -No. 2: “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist -Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the -Government?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -I notice in the pneumograph tracing some deviation. However, by -interpretation of the chart and the length of that particular question, -it again appears obvious that there was some hesitation on his part in -answering the question due to its length. - -However, there was no other noticeable significant physiological -deviation in his response to that question. - -Question No. 4: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a -member of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is no -significant change in his normal physiological pattern. - -Question No. 6: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend -a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the -Government?” This again is a relatively long question. However, it did -not appear to disturb him, and there is no noticable physiological -deviation in his response to this question. - -Question No. 8: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate -family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied -“No.” - -Here again there is no noticable significant deviation in his -physiological pattern. - -Question No. 9: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate -family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent -overthrow of the Government?” Here again this is a relatively long -question and there was a little hesitation on his part in answering -it, causing a change in the pneumograph tracing. However, there is no -significant deviation with regard to his overall physiological pattern -when he responded to this question. In general, series 8 shows no -significant deviation from his normal physiological pattern. The total -chart minutes was 2 minutes 50 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have now then given us all of the relevant findings on -series No. 8, correct? - -Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you the chart designated series No. 9 marked -Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10, and ask you if there was any unique -system employed in that series. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there was at this point in the interrogation. -Realizing the Commission had a large number of questions they wanted -to ask, it was decided at this point, in view of the fact that we had -asked the main critical questions, to proceed with what I call direct -interrogation, that is that each and every one of the questions asked -is a relevant question, and that there are no irrelevant questions or -control questions asked. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed then to give us the results of those -questions. - -Mr. HERNDON. Did you want me to itemize each and every one of these -questions or read them out? They are all relevant questions and a -matter of record. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do. - -Mr. HERNDON. Series 9 contains 7 questions, all being relevant. - -Question No. 1: “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?” Mr. -Ruby replied “No.” - -Question No. 2: “Did you use your post office mail box to do any -business with Mexico or Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -Question No. 3: “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?” Mr. Ruby -replied “No.” - -Question No. 4: “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?” - -Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 5: “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you -carried $2,200 in cash on you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 6: “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?” -Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -Question No. 7: “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the -underworld?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -In interpreting his chart with regard to this particular series -of questions, there is no noticeable significant deviation in his -physiological pattern except at question No. 6. According to my -notation on the chart, Ruby moved his head at this point, and there was -a deviation caused by this movement in his blood pressure tracing and -also in his pneumograph tracing. His heart rate maintained a consistent -rate of approximately 66 to 72 heart beats per minute throughout this -series. No significant changes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the total time on that series? - -Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes on series 9 was 2 minutes 15 -seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant factors from that -series reading? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you are going to proceed with -series 9A which is a continuation of the sheet marked Herndon Exhibit -No. 10. - -Mr. HERNDON. This was done in order to save time inasmuch as the -interrogation was becoming rather lengthy at this point, and Mr. -Specter indicated he was anxious to proceed and to complete the rest of -the questions that we had agreed upon with all those parties that were -interested in this interrogation. - -Series No. 9A again is a series of relevant questions. - -Question No. 8: “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union -influence?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -Question No. 9: “Did any long distance telephone calls which you made -before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the -assassination?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -Question No. 10: “Did any of your long distance telephone calls concern -the shooting of Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -Mr. SPECTER. What number question was that again? - -Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 10. - -Question No. 11: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy -the ordeal of a trial?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 12: “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?” Mr. Ruby -replied “No.” - -Question No. 13: “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to -Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 14: “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to -get the telephone number of KLIF?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 15: “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Tippit at your -club?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” - -Mr. SPECTER. On the designations series 9 and 9A, Mr. Herndon, did you -loosen up the cuff on his arm during the two series? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I deliberately loosened or actually I completely took -off all pressure off his arm to allow him to have complete circulation -in his arm and to give him a rest period before proceeding with series -9A. I believe the transcript will show that I asked him if he was -feeling all right and if he was ready to proceed before going into -series 9A. A review of series 9A with regard to Ruby’s polygrams fails -to reveal any significant physiological reaction with regard to his -responses to these relevant questions. - -At this point, Mr. Specter, I might add that we are getting into an -area now where it is possible that Ruby is getting somewhat cuff -weary and getting somewhat tired and becoming somewhat immune to the -polygraph technique. I believe we both realized this. - -However, we wanted to ask these questions as a matter of record. The -chart shows there is no stress or strain. However, it is entirely -possible that he is becoming desensitized at this point. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings on series -9a? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; the total chart minutes for this particular series -was 2 minutes 30 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you series No. 10 which is marked Herndon -Deposition Exhibit No. 11, and ask you to start again with the relevant -questions and give us the responses thereto and any significant -findings. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 10 again was mutually agreed upon by several of -the people present during the examination. However, formally authorized -by Mr. Specter of the President’s Commission. They are question No. -2 which is relevant: “Were you at the Parkland Hospital any time on -Friday?” Mr. Ruby replied, “No.” - -Question No. 3, which is considered relevant. “Did you say anything -when you shot Oswald other than what you testified about?” - -Mr. Ruby replied, “No.” - -Question No. 4, which was originally recommended by Dr. Beavers and as -agreed upon by Mr. Specter, was presented in this manner. - -Question No. 4: “Have members of your family been physically harmed -because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby—could we go off the record here? I -am a little confused on my notes at this point? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that while off the record, Mr. Herndon -has referred to his notes and also to the transcript of testimony -taken by the court reporter at the time the polygraph examination was -administered, to be sure of the questions and answers here, and that as -Mr. Herndon points out, his notes correspond with the transcript. - -Will you then proceed Mr. Herndon to state those questions, answers and -responses, if any? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; No. 4 was: “Have members of your family been -physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby did reply “No,” -and then said: “May I interrupt?” He was instructed by me to just sit -perfectly still and we will discuss the questions later. There was a -deviation in his physiological tracings with regard to this question. -However, these must be interpreted to the fact that he actually spoke a -sentence in response to the question. - -Question No. 5 was: “Do you think members of your family are now in -danger because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby failed to make any reply -or response to this particular question. It is noted that there was -no significant change in his physiological tracings in any of the -components following my asking this question. - -Question No. 6 was: “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending -you?” Here again Mr. Ruby failed to make any verbal reply to the -question. Looking at the polygrams produced, it is noted that there is -no significant physiological response with regard to this question. The -examiner made a notation on his chart that it appeared that Mr. Ruby -was visibly pondering the answer to these questions. However, decided -not to answer them as instructed either yes or no period. - -Question No. 7 is a relevant question: “Did Blackie Harrison speak to -you just before you shot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is a -slight increase in his relative blood pressure. However, this is not -considered significant inasmuch as it is at the end of the series, and -it is not unusual for slight increase in blood pressure to be portrayed -as the series prolongs into the later questions. It is not considered -significant. - -The total chart minutes on this particular series was 2 minutes 25 -seconds. - -In discussion of the two questions in which Mr. Ruby failed to reply, I -made notations on the chart that he felt the questions were difficult -to answer yes or no, and that he didn’t know how to answer them. - -Mr. SPECTER. By those questions do you mean the ones—— - -Mr. HERNDON. I am referring to question 5 and 6 in which he did not -specifically reply verbally. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is “Do you think members of your family are now in -danger because of what you did?” - -Mr. HERNDON. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. And “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” - -Mr. HERNDON. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby answer those in a preliminary session? - -Mr. HERNDON. During the preliminary session he did answer those -questions. - -Mr. SPECTER. What answer to each question did he give? - -Mr. HERNDON. To the question “Do you think members of your family are -now in danger because of what you did?” he replied “Yes.” - -In regard to the question “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is -defending you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the significant findings on series -No. 10? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. I will now move to series No. 11 which we will mark for -this record as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12. - -(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you start on series No. 11, giving the relevant -questions, answers and any physiological deviation? - -Mr. HERNDON. These questions on Series 11 were primarily asked after a -conversation between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Specter at which time Mr. Ruby -indicated he wanted some additional questions asked of him. - -It was finally agreed upon that we would ask the three following -questions. - -No. 1 just to establish identity “Are you Jack Ruby?” in which he -replied “Yes.” - -Question No. 2: “Do you consider yourself to be a 100-percent American -patriot?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.” - -And question No. 3 “Is all of the testimony given by you today the -complete truth?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.” - -This particular series began at 8:57 p.m., and a review of the -physiological responses to these three particular questions indicate -that they are not significant. It is believed by the examiner at -this point, although Mr. Ruby said he was not tired in his general -conversation with the examiner, that he was probably somewhat fatigued, -and he was no longer displaying the usual physiological responses -expected during the earlier phases of the examination. - -The total chart minutes of series 11 is 1 minute 10 seconds. I do not -consider anything significant to these particular responses other than -the fact that we obliged Mr. Ruby in asking them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was this polygraph examination excessive with respect to -length in your opinion, Mr. Herndon? - -Mr. HERNDON. Well, it would greatly depend on Mr. Ruby’s physical and -mental condition of course. A doctor was in attendance during the -examination, and I repeatedly asked Mr. Ruby during the examination -how he felt and whether he wanted to proceed. I asked him on several -occasions if he would like to take a break or have a drink of water. I -cannot specifically state that it did or did not appear to hinder his -health or cause him any undue fatigue. - -However, I did hear the doctor indicate that there was no undue -physical stress or strain on Mr. Ruby during the examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Up until the points where you have indicated there were -some signs of tiredness, did Mr. Ruby appear to be responding in a -satisfactory manner? - -Mr. HERNDON. I would say during the first several series of questions, -and based on the presumption again that Mr. Ruby was rationally sound -and competent during this phase of the examination, that he responded -very normally, and the polygraph examination proceeded without any -technical difficulties. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Ruby given periodic breaks throughout the course -of the examination in addition to that lengthy one between series 4 and -series 5? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes; he was given a number of breaks and there was no -time when he was asked a long series of questions inasmuch as the -total chart, minutes on my charts indicate none of them went beyond -3 minutes, which is certainly considered well within standard series -total chart minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful to the President’s Commission? - -Mr. HERNDON. Yes. I would like to make a few additional comments with -regard to this polygraph examination, in view of the fact that it was -somewhat unique and unusual. I think these factors should be somewhat -considered in the overall evaluation of the polygraph examination. - -First of all, Ruby has obviously been extensively interviewed by law -enforcement officers and by the Commission and other people, and there -has been a considerable length of time lapse since the time that the -instant offense occurred of him shooting Oswald. These factors of -length of time and considerable previous interrogation would tend to -detract or negate any specific or definite conclusion that could be -rendered with regard to the polygraph examination. - -The fact that there were other personnel in the room would tend -to negate a valid polygraph technique. However, here again I did -mention that this did not appear to bother Mr. Ruby. But it should be -considered and made a matter of record. - -One other point I would like to mention, and that is the large -number of relevant questions asked Mr. Ruby during this particular -examination. This is not general standard procedure. However, I realize -that the President’s Commission wanted to cover many facets, and that -it was mutually agreed upon that we would ask the questions that the -Commission had originally drawn up for this particular interrogation. -In normal polygraph procedure it is usual to keep the relevant -questions down to perhaps several specific critical relevant questions -and work strictly on those, and in this particular examination we had a -large number of relevant questions to ask. - -I think these are all factors that should be considered in the overall -evaluation of Mr. Ruby’s polygraph examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Herndon. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BRECK WALL (BILLY RAY WILSON) - -The testimony of Breck Wall was taken at 2:13 p.m., on August 5, 1964, -at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, Las Vegas, Nev., -by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this deposition proceeding of -the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy -is being taken at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, -Las Vegas, Nev. May the record further show it is now 2:13 Pacific -daylight time on Wednesday, August 5, 1964. Present is Mr. Breck Wall -who has appeared in response to letter notification and also telephone -notification. - -Mr. Wall, the President’s Commission has asked you to appear here today -to testify concerning any knowledge which you may have of Mr. Jack -Ruby, his associates, background, and his activities relating to the -events of November 22 through November 24, 1963. With that preliminary -statement of purpose, I will ask you to rise and raise your right hand, -if you would, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you shall give in -this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. WALL. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. WALL. My legal name is Billy Ray Wilson but I have used -professionally Breck Wall for the last 7 or 8 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, did you receive a letter of notification asking -you to appear here today for your deposition? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did that letter contain within it the Executive order -creating the President’s Commission and a copy of the rules and -regulations for taking of depositions by the President’s Commission? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you understand that if you wish, you may be -represented by counsel here today? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to have an attorney with you today? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you receive that letter? - -Mr. WALL. Monday night at home. I was performing at the Castaways and a -friend of mine signed the receipt on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Under the regulations you are entitled to 3 days’ notice. -Are you willing to proceed with this deposition today without having -that notice? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, Mr. Wall? - -Mr. WALL. Producer; performer. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where are you employed at the present time? - -Mr. WALL. At the Castaways in Las Vegas. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the nature of your duties in connection with your -employment at the Castaways? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I perform each night. I don’t understand what you mean -really. - -Mr. SPECTER. What sort of performing do you do? - -Mr. WALL. Comedy; musical comedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been engaged in that type of activity? - -Mr. WALL. About 6 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was your occupation before you became an -entertainer? - -Mr. WALL. College student. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time? - -Mr. WALL. Twenty-seven. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I only had 1 year of college, University of Texas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born? - -Mr. WALL. Jacksonville, Fla. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live, in a general way, up to the -present time? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I have lived in Freeport, Tex., that is where I was -raised, and Dallas, New York City, Jacksonville, Fla., Orlando, Fla., -and here. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you live in New York City? - -Mr. WALL. In 1954 through 1957. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your occupation at that time? - -Mr. WALL. I worked as a doorman at Luchow’s on 14th Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you live at those various cities in Florida? - -Mr. WALL. In between—in the year of 1957 and 1958. I came to Dallas in -November of 1958, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was it specifically that you lived in Florida then? - -Mr. WALL. It was in the first part of 1958 and the latter part of 1957, -I would say. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you live in Freeman, Tex.? - -Mr. WALL. Freeport. - -Mr. SPECTER. Freeport, Tex.? - -Mr. WALL. Through school until I graduated in 1953. - -Mr. SPECTER. From high school? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then you attended the University of Texas in Austin for a -year? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live from 1954 until the time you went -to New York City? - -Mr. WALL. Then New York City from Austin. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go directly from Austin to New York City? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go directly from New York City? - -Mr. WALL. To Jacksonville, Fla. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where you lived for the balance of the time up until -November of 1958? - -Mr. WALL. Right; sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you went to Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do when you first went to Dallas in November -of 1958? - -Mr. WALL. I was ill at the time and I had to stay with the McKennas. I -was sick at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where do the McKennas live? - -Mr. WALL. Currently they live in Galveston, Tex. They moved from Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. What are the first names of the McKennas? - -Mr. WALL. Thomas J. McKenna. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is there another McKenna? - -Mr. WALL. There are—you mean as far as children? - -Mr. SPECTER. You say you lived with the McKennas. I take it there was -more than one McKenna or was there only one? - -Mr. WALL. Mrs. McKenna and three children. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay with them following the time you -joined them in November of 1958? - -Mr. WALL. I would say about 2 months. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you next live? - -Mr. WALL. I can’t think of the name of the street. In Dallas. I lived -in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. With others, or by yourself? - -Mr. WALL. By myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to know the McKennas? - -Mr. WALL. When I was going to high school, I would spend the summer -with my family and they lived next door to my family. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you spent the summer with your family who lived -next door to the McKennas, was that in Dallas? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; in Fort Worth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you live with when you went to school in -Freeport? - -Mr. WALL. With my grandmother who has since deceased. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas, Tex., after November of -1958? - -Mr. WALL. When I moved in November of 1958 there, I stayed until I just -moved. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you left? - -Mr. WALL. We left in January of 1964 to go to Houston. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean by that? - -Mr. WALL. The company; the show I am in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which show is that? - -Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in Houston then? - -Mr. WALL. We were in Houston for 12 weeks and then from Houston we came -out to Las Vegas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, to the best of your recollection, did you first meet -Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. WALL. I would say about 3½ years ago. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your becoming acquainted -with him? - -Mr. WALL. We were having financial trouble at a club we owned called -the Playbill. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean? - -Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson, my partner. We needed a place to go to do a -show. Jack Ruby offered a very lucrative offer to play his new club. It -was then called the Sovereign Club which later became the Carousel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the nature of the lucrative offer which Mr. -Ruby made to you? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I think he was going to pay us, I think, I’m not sure, -$125 a week plus we were on a small percentage of the club. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you play for Mr. Ruby at the Sovereign Club? - -Mr. WALL. I would say about 8 weeks. Maybe less. - -Mr. SPECTER. What happened, if anything, to terminate that arrangement? - -Mr. WALL. We got into an argument over a contract that I had signed -stating that I would perform the show for one night for around $2,200. - -Mr. SPECTER. What show were you supposed to perform for one night? - -Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up. - -Mr. SPECTER. For whom? - -Mr. WALL. I don’t recall the name of the organization. It was a nurses’ -organization. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that show supposed to be performed? - -Mr. WALL. In the ballroom of the Hotel Adolphus. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of your disagreement with Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. WALL. He was in a financial bind because the show wasn’t working -out like he thought and we were in a financial bind and needed the -money and he would let us do it only if we would give him half. We -couldn’t because we couldn’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean “we”? You still mean Joe Peterson and you? - -Mr. WALL. Yes. And we called in the union man of our performing arts -called AGVA. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is that an abbreviation of? - -Mr. WALL. American Guild of Variety Artists. And the AGVA man sided -with Jack and we got into an argument wherein Jack punched Joe in the -mouth and broke off a tooth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Joe Peterson, that is? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. And we left that night. I might also add in the -record that the man, the name of the man representing our union, was -named James Dolen who was arrested later, some months later, by the FBI. - -Mr. SPECTER. On what charge, if you know? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; as far as I know he was running some sort of bingo -game or something illegal in Louisiana. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you perform that show Bottoms Up? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. Jack Ruby and Jim Dolen took the show over and made -our kids perform the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the same troupe then performing the show except for -you and Mr. Peterson? - -Mr. WALL. The only one we have now with us that did the show with us -over at the Adolphus that particular night is Bill Fanning who is in -our show. - -Mr. SPECTER. After that 8-week connection with Mr. Ruby what later -association, if any, did you have with him? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I didn’t speak to Jack for about, I would say, around 6 -months but he and Mr. Peterson became good friends again because they -have the type personalities that flare up and forget; and I don’t—I -have a mind like an elephant—and they started speaking so, therefore, -I started speaking and going back to the club which he changed into a -stripper club called the Carousel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever work for Mr. Ruby again? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then from that time on you knew him as a friend and -acquaintance in the Dallas area? - -Mr. WALL. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your occupation from the time you left Mr. Ruby’s -until you left Dallas in January of 1964? - -Mr. WALL. We reopened the Playbill Club for about 4 months and then we -went back to the—I’m sorry—then we went to the Maple Theater, did a -show for about 6 weeks called Mr. Wonderful, then back to the Adolphus -Hotel where we stayed. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do at the Adolphus Hotel? - -Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up. Performed it in the Century Room. - -Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did you see Mr. Ruby during the years of -1961, 1962, 1963? - -Mr. WALL. Well, after we lost the Playbill again for a second time and -we closed the show at the Maple Theater, then we were right across -the street from where Jack had his club and Jack got a haircut at the -barbershop in the hotel, ate in the hotel restaurant, consequently I -think that is when he started—he and Joe started being friends and I -started seeing him a lot and became good friends; then when we started -at the Adolphus in 1962, maybe the latter part of 1961, we started -speaking and being good friends. We would go over there sometimes three -or four times a week just to see the show and the girls over there -which we were good friends with. - -Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge, did Jack Ruby ever associate with any -of the criminal element? - -Mr. WALL. He always reminded me of a gangster but I have never seen him -with anyone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did he always remind you of a gangster? - -Mr. WALL. Just the way he talks, you know, he just reminds me of a real -hood. Still I have never seen him with anyone that you would call a -criminal in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from his appearance and the way he talks do you have -any factual reason for saying that he appears to be a hood or gangster? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was Jack Ruby ever a member of any -subversive organization or any group which advocates the forceful -overthrow of the United States Government? - -Mr. WALL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any members of his family or friends ever members of -any subversive organization? - -Mr. WALL. I only met one relative of his which was his sister, Eva, or -Ava, however you would say it. I just met her casually. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is her last name? - -Mr. WALL. I really don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Grant? - -Mr. WALL. Grant. That is right. She ran his club on—what street is it? -I have to think of the club for a minute. It is right next door to the -B&B. - -Mr. SPECTER. The Vegas Club? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. Thank you. That was the only time. I have only been -out to the Vegas Club maybe twice in the whole time I have been in -Dallas but I would see her at the B&B restaurant eating after she had -closed her club. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WALL. Only after he had shot the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald together -at any time? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. He knew most of the policemen on the police -force. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby with Officer Tippit? - -Mr. WALL. I don’t know what he looks like. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who Officer Tippit is? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. He was the officer who was shot and killed the day of the -assassination. - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall Friday, November 22, 1963? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities on that day to the best of your -ability to recollect? - -Mr. WALL. That was very easy to remember. We went down to the Adolphus -marquee. - -Mr. SPECTER. “We” meaning? - -Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson and also with us was Nancy Austin, who is in -our show, and Kenny Jerome, who is in our show. We watched President -Kennedy drive by and I was listening to it on the radio as he was -driving and when he passed us he was going 30 miles an hour whereas -he had been going 10 miles an hour so we missed him. With all the -excitement and everything we didn’t get a good look at him so we went -upstairs. - -Mr. SPECTER. Your view of the motorcade from the Adolphus was from the -marquee of the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the Presidential limousine passed -the Adolphus Hotel? - -Mr. WALL. We wanted to get a better look at the President so Joe -Peterson and myself decided to go out to the airport because when he -was out there, when he first arrived in Dallas, he stayed out there I -think 30 minutes longer than he was supposed to, shaking hands with -the people. We thought he might do it again. We ran upstairs to change -clothes. It was a very cold day. We needed to put on some warm clothes. -We went upstairs to change clothes and go out to the airport. We always -left our television on because we have a dog and it sort of keeps him -calm. When we opened the door into the bedroom they announced over the -television that the President had been assassinated. Joe went down to -the—as far as I know he went down to the Book Depository to see what it -looked like and I stayed in the bedroom and watched the television to -find out what was, you know, going on. We stayed there all that night -and we departed for Galveston to get away from Dallas the next day, -which was Saturday, at around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do the balance of Friday night? - -Mr. WALL. We stayed and watched television. I didn’t move from the -television set. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner that night? - -Mr. WALL. In the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to bed on the evening of November 22, -if you recall? - -Mr. WALL. As far as I know I didn’t go to bed until 5 in the morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do all that night? - -Mr. WALL. Watched television. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the television stations running around the clock? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken on Saturday, November 23, if you -remember? - -Mr. WALL. I would say around 8 o’clock, 9 o’clock. I woke up and -watched television again. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you eat breakfast? - -Mr. WALL. I went down to breakfast on Saturday. - -Mr. SPECTER. Down to where? - -Mr. WALL. The coffee shop. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of the Adolphus Hotel? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. Then I came right back up and watched television -again until that afternoon. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you leave the hotel? - -Mr. WALL. About 3 or 4 that afternoon we left for Galveston. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean? - -Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson and myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. By what means did you go? - -Mr. WALL. In our car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on Saturday? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. I called the McKennas to tell them we were coming -down. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on Friday, the day before? - -Mr. WALL. I’m sure I made telephone calls to each cast member telling -them we would not perform until Monday or Tuesday, that Mr. Anderson -didn’t know yet—he is the manager of the hotel—I’m sure I made quite a -few calls that day. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you had a conversation with Mr. Anderson concerning -the closing of the show? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. He called us saying there wouldn’t be a show until -Monday or Tuesday depending on when the funeral was. He didn’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is his full name? - -Mr. WALL. All I know is Andy Anderson. He has initials. I don’t know, -sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What members of the cast did you call following your -conversation with Mr. Anderson? - -Mr. WALL. Everyone in the cast, and I may forget a few names. I can -list them if you’d like. - -Mr. SPECTER. Please do. - -Mr. WALL. Carl Tressler in Fort Worth. There would also be Eddie -Parker, Bill Fanning, Suzanne Malone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live? - -Mr. WALL. In Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where does Carl Tressler live? - -Mr. WALL. Fort Worth. All the cast members in our show live in Dallas -with the exception of Carl Tressler and Eddie Parker who live in Fort -Worth. All of my calls would have been in Fort Worth except for the -long distance calls in Galveston. We have had so many castings I really -can’t remember the rest of the people we had in our show. Possibly I -made a call to Hazel Rippe, if she was still in the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. That would have been in Dallas also? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. All these telephone numbers would be in Dallas. -Hazel wasn’t in our show. There is another phone number in Fort Worth, -it was a girl dancer in our show by the name of Ryna Hradecky, who -was a friend of Carl Tressler’s, so, therefore, I might have given a -message to Carl to call Ryna because I couldn’t get her at home at that -particular time but if I had any calls to Fort Worth it would be to -Ryna also. There would be one or two other calls to Dallas which would -be cast members but I really can’t think who was in the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you call Tom McKenna? - -Mr. WALL. It would probably be, I would say, around 2 in the afternoon -because we decided very quickly we were going. We just got tired of -laying around the room watching television. I was beginning to get -“buggy.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you have called him as late as 5:30 that afternoon? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; it could have been. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then the balance of that afternoon? - -Mr. WALL. Watched television. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch television all the time up until the point -when you left to go to Galveston? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in Galveston? - -Mr. WALL. It would be 11 o’clock; somewhere around 11 o’clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far is it from Dallas to Galveston? - -Mr. WALL. I didn’t make the call from Dallas to Galveston at 2—it must -have been 5:30—because it only takes 4½ hours. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the distance? - -Mr. WALL. Around 200 miles. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any stops en route? - -Mr. WALL. Only for gas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner? - -Mr. WALL. We didn’t have dinner. We don’t ever eat when we drive to -Galveston, just go straight on down. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you eat when you arrived at Galveston? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; we ate at the house. - -Mr. SPECTER. At Mr. McKenna’s house? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston that night? - -Mr. WALL. Well, just as nearly, as quickly as we arrived is when we -got a telephone call from Jack Ruby. After I talked to him we sat and -visited and then went to bed. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did the telephone call from Mr. Ruby last? - -Mr. WALL. I would say it couldn’t have been more than only 5 minutes. -Maybe 3½ minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. State, as precisely as you can recollect, exactly what -Jack Ruby said to you and what you said to him during that telephone -call. - -Mr. WALL. Well, he was having trouble with the union, or AGVA, and I -had been elected the president of the council, newly elected president, -and we had not even had a meeting yet but—I can’t remember—he was -having some sort of problems with his girls and the union was going to -make him do something, which I didn’t think was right. I told him I -would help him out and make sure his case was presented correctly. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the union trying to make him do? - -Mr. WALL. I don’t recall. I really don’t know but—I wasn’t going to be -on his side, but I was going to be sure it was presented correctly, -that we would get his angle as much as the union’s, the girl that was -reporting him or whatever the circumstances were. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you friends with Mr. Ruby at this time? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. He was very upset the President was assassinated -and he called Abe Weinstein or Bernie Weinstein, he called them some -names for staying open Friday night. - -Mr. SPECTER. What club did they run? - -Mr. WALL. They—I don’t know which one owns which. One owns the Theater -Lounge and the other owns the Colony Club, and he was very upset that -he had closed and they stayed open. He thought it wasn’t right and he -wanted to know when I would return to Dallas and I told him probably -Monday or Tuesday and he said, well, when I got in to town would I call -him, which I said I would. He asked how everything was. I told him fine -and that was it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything else he said during that -telephone conversation? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything else that you said to him -during that call? - -Mr. WALL. Only if I told him why I left Dallas. He asked what I was -doing in Galveston. I told him I just wanted to get away for a couple -of days. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he mention Lee Harvey Oswald in that telephone call? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he mention anything about any assassin or the assassin -whoever he might be? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. The only thing that he said which would be important -to the Commission was that he was very upset that the other clubs had -decided to stay open and that they did not have the decency to close -on such a day and that he thought out of respect they should close. -That is the only thing I recall that he said that would be of any -importance. The other things were about his business with the union, -how we were and why we went down to Galveston. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about any intention he might have to -do anything to Oswald? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Prior to that telephone call on the night of November 23, -when was the last time you had talked to Ruby before that? - -Mr. WALL. It could have been 2 or 3 days before. I don’t know, as I -said. I saw him that often, you know. I do recall the last time I was -in his club was the week before he shot Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. When were you in his club during that week? - -Mr. WALL. We had signed a contract to go into the Continental Hotel in -Houston and we had the—— - -Mr. SPECTER. By “we” you mean you and Joe Peterson? - -Mr. WALL. Right. Whenever I use “we” that is always Joe Peterson. And -we had—the man who signed us felt pretty good about it and wanted to -stay up beyond 12 o’clock, which is our curfew in Texas, and the only -place that was open is the three exotic clubs and we decided to take -Larry Grayson, booker of the Continental, to Jack Ruby’s club and let -him see a stripper called Jada. - -Mr. SPECTER. Weren’t the exotic clubs governed by the curfew? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I’m sorry. The Theater Lounge and the Colony Club -did close—I’m sorry. They didn’t close. No; they didn’t. You could -serve a beer called near beer which did not contain any alcohol, or -they would serve coffee. They did not have to close at the same time -the others closed; so we took Larry and went over there and stayed up -until around 2 or 3. I recall the incident, by the way, that Jack was -having trouble with the union about. - -Mr. SPECTER. What incident was it? - -Mr. WALL. It was something about the comic had to perform in between -each stripper to lengthen the time of the show and where he had -lined up three strippers at one time and then a comic and then three -strippers again. He was having trouble with time. He wanted to make the -show continuous and this was the problem he was having, so the night -that I went to the Carousel Club with Larry Grayson and Joe Peterson -he, himself, got on stage and entertained for 30 minutes with a raffle -and I recall that Larry turned to me and said—every time that Jack -would do something he would try and be very funny—every time he would -do something he would turn to me and say. “Is that all right, Breck?” -and Larry turned to me and said, “He thinks a great deal of you. Every -time he does anything he turns to you,” and I said, “Yes.” I definitely -remember that. That was the problem of trying to make—— - -Mr. SPECTER. What night was that? - -Mr. WALL. It was at least a week before, maybe not—maybe not quite a -week. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you recall the specific night that was? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I can’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. Prior to that time when had you last seen Ruby? - -Mr. WALL. I really don’t know, sir. I don’t think probably I saw him at -all until after the President had been shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, I’m going back, before the time you said you had -this conversation with him on that Saturday night when you were in -Galveston. You saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club some time about a -week before the assassination? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, prior to the time you were in the Carousel Club a -week before the assassination, had you last seen Jack Ruby? - -Mr. WALL. Possibly on the street or something. I had gone up to the -club a week or two before that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you discussed this problem concerning the American -Guild of Variety Artists with Jack Ruby prior to that telephone -conversation on November 23? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. SPECTER. When had you discussed it with him before? - -Mr. WALL. He had called me—— - -Mr. SPECTER. When was that? - -Mr. WALL. Possibly 2 weeks before the assassination—telling me his -problem and wanting to know when it would be brought up at the meeting, -and I told him that we usually met the 15th of each month and that at -the next meeting I would—I’m sorry. I made an error. We meet every -Thursday. Every Thursday there was a union meeting and the 15th is when -we meet privately, I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an official capacity with the union, that is, -were you an officer? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I was an officer as being elected the president of -the inter-union. In other words, all the performers, if there was -a complaint that some performer had done something wrong and the -management said that he was right and the performer said that they were -right, then the performers themselves elected a committee of about six -that would determine who was right, and this was the committee and I -really don’t even know the correct name of the committee. They would -judge who was right and wrong and what would be done about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any official standing on the committee which -was to take up Jack Ruby’s problem? - -Mr. WALL. I don’t understand what you mean. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you responsible in any official way for the committee -which was to consider the problem Jack Ruby had with the guild? - -Mr. WALL. My capacity was to make sure that everything was presented -correctly and this was the only thing that Jack was after me to do is -to make sure his side of the story was heard. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it up to you to make the decision on who was right and -who was wrong? - -Mr. WALL. It was up to the committee, six members. - -Mr. SPECTER. You were one of the members of the committee? - -Mr. WALL. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did Jack Ruby first discuss his problem with you? - -Mr. WALL. I would say around 2 weeks before the assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did he next discuss the problem with you? - -Mr. WALL. He called me a couple of times to see if we had had a meeting -or not. He would call and I would tell him; no. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that by telephone? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; he would call me at the hotel. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how many times did he call you after he first -discussed it with you approximately 2 weeks before the assassination? - -Mr. WALL. I would say about two times. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did he make those telephone calls to you? - -Mr. WALL. In the afternoon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long before the assassination were those -calls made? - -Mr. WALL. Well, the last one was the Saturday night, midnight the last -call came, that was the main reason he was calling me was to find out -if we had had a meeting. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you once or twice between the first time he -talked to you about the guild problem and the time he called you in -Galveston? - -Mr. WALL. About twice. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did those two telephone calls occur, to the best of -your recollection? - -Mr. WALL. In the afternoon. That was the only time to get me. - -Mr. SPECTER. What dates? - -Mr. WALL. I can’t recall any dates. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss any thing else in any of those two -telephone calls other than the specific problem with the guild? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had Mr. Ruby called you at Galveston prior to the time -he completed the call shortly after your arrival at Galveston on that -Saturday night? - -Mr. WALL. I’m sorry. Had he——? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he just call you the first time and make that -connection with you? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; as far as I know. Otherwise my mother would have -said that she received a long distance call. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say your mother—— - -Mr. WALL. Nonnie. Mrs. McKenna. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. McKenna did not refer to any prior call to you? - -Mr. WALL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how Mr. Ruby got your telephone number in -Galveston? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. I left my telephone number where I would be in -Galveston with the operator in Dallas, which I do every time I go out -of town so they will know how to contact me. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your purpose in leaving your telephone number in -that manner? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I get quite a few calls and the main reason I left -it was because Mr. Anderson, who was the manger of the hotel, hadn’t -decided what day to come back to work, Monday or Tuesday, therefore, I -needed to know so, therefore, I left the telephone number. - -Mr. SPECTER. After you completed your telephone conversation with Jack -Ruby on that Saturday night, November 23, what did you do next? - -Mr. WALL. As far as I can remember I had a sandwich and visited with -the folks for about 45 minutes, then went to bed because I was kind of -tired. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you awaken on Sunday morning, November 24? - -Mr. WALL. I don’t know the precise time. I do know it was about—it -couldn’t have been more than 10 minutes before Jack shot Oswald because -I had just gotten up and walked in the bedroom and was watching it in -the folks’ bedroom, so whatever time Jack shot Oswald I was only up 10 -minutes beforehand. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe on the television -screen at that time? - -Mr. WALL. Nothing at all to relate it was Jack. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know it was Jack at the time you saw the shooting -of Oswald? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What part of the man did you see on the television screen? - -Mr. WALL. It all happened so quick I didn’t see anything except I -understood Jack had been shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Understood who had been shot? - -Mr. WALL. I’m sorry, that Oswald had been shot and that—I watched the -interview with the policeman saying he knew who it was but could not -say publicly who it was. We waited around and, I would say, within a -matter of 15 minutes they announced who it was. It seems to me that -quick. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who did they announce that it was? - -Mr. WALL. Jack Ruby, owner of a stripper club called the Carousel. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your reaction, if any, to that? - -Mr. WALL. Well, it was a shock. That is all I can say. It was a real -shock. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for the balance of that Sunday afternoon? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I would say within 30 minutes to an hour we received -a call from the Washington Post representative who, I believe, was in -Dallas at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did that representative of the Washington Post happen -to call you? - -Mr. WALL. I have no idea. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what his name was? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if anything? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I was still in shock. I told him that I had talked to -Jack over the telephone and he asked what we had said and I told him -and he said: “Well, can you tell me a little about him?” And I was at -that time having an argument with Mr. Peterson on what to do, you know, -keep your mouth shut, or, you know, say what you had to say. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was Mr. Peterson’s view? - -Mr. WALL. He said to keep my mouth shut, he did not want to get -involved in any way, and that the right people would come to us and for -us not to say anything so—— - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your view about that subject? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I didn’t know. I don’t know. I can’t remember. I would -say mine was the same way. I was kind of scared, to be honest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why were you scared? - -Mr. WALL. Just when people start calling you long distance you get -seared. You don’t want to get involved in anything, particularly if you -didn’t have anything to do with it. Then the next telephone call we -got was from Dick Hitt, who is a man on the—a columnist for the Dallas -Times Herald who knew I was a very close friend. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you known Mr. Hitt before that telephone call? - -Mr. WALL. Oh, yes; ever since I have been in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Hitt say to you? - -Mr. WALL. He wanted to know about—he wanted me to talk to his editor -or someone about Jack, to find out what kind of a person he was and -everything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to his editor? - -Mr. WALL. We did but very coldly. Joe talked to the editor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to him? - -Mr. WALL. I talked to Dick Hitt but whenever they called back the man -called back and said: “Dick Hitt said for me to call you.” Joe got on -the phone and said: “No, I don’t know anything.” I have a correction to -make. The first call that we received was from the Dallas Morning News. -The second call we got was from the Washington Post and the last call -we got was from Dick Hitt. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who called you from the Dallas Morning News? - -Mr. WALL. I would say right now as far as I can remember it was Hugh -Ainsworth because he also knew I was a very good friend of Jack’s. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the conversation between you and -Mr. Ainsworth? - -Mr. WALL. The conversation was that Jack had called me and—Hugh and -I were good speaking friends. Not close friends, but we had talked a -great deal—of course, this being the first person I had talked to that -had also known Jack, we were just in a conversation. I told him: “Yes, -I had received a call,” you know, I was sort of outspoken in discussing -it with Hugh. Joe got kind of angry and said we should not meddle in -any way at all and so the Washington Post called after that and we were -sort of cool and when Dick Hitt called we said we knew nothing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive any other telephone calls? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on that Sunday? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you call? - -Mr. WALL. I called Nancy Austin, who is a performer in our show, to -find out how to get hold of Phil Burleson. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was Phil Burleson? - -Mr. WALL. He was my attorney. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long had he been your attorney? - -Mr. WALL. Since I arrived in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the purpose of your wanting to get Mr. -Burleson’s telephone number? - -Mr. WALL. Well, Phil also knew Jack and I wanted to see if he was going -to represent Jack or if he could or wanted to or to see if he could get -in to see Jack to see what was going on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you do that? - -Mr. WALL. Well, as I say, I was in shock. I was upset because I liked -Jack very much. He has been a very good friend of ours even with our -ups and downs. Just to make sure everything was all right. To find out -what was going on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had anybody requested you to contact an attorney on behalf -of Jack Ruby? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. That thought came to you on your own initiative? - -Mr. WALL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss it with Mr. Peterson? - -Mr. WALL. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Peterson say about that telephone call? - -Mr. WALL. It was fine with him. The main thing that Joe objected to, -he did not want to be in print about saying anything or doing anything -that would jeopardize our position at the Adolphus Hotel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know that Jack Ruby had other attorneys who -represented him regularly? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he have any other attorney, to your knowledge? - -Mr. WALL. I have never known him to have any attorney at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is prior to the time of the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other telephone calls on that Sunday? - -Mr. WALL. Well, any other phone calls I would have made would have been -to cast members. - -Mr. SPECTER. For what purpose? - -Mr. WALL. To tell them that we still didn’t know we were going to do -the show or anything about it, just be prepared to come in Monday, -Tuesday, Wednesday, whenever they were notified. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any other specific calls you made on that -Sunday, November 24? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do the balance of the day? - -Mr. WALL. Watched television. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to sleep that night? - -Mr. WALL. Late. It was very late. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have supper? - -Mr. WALL. In the house. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave the house at all that Sunday? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I didn’t go out at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arise on the following Monday? - -Mr. WALL. I would say Monday night. I really don’t, to be honest -with you, I don’t know what time I arrived back. I don’t know if we -performed Monday or Tuesday. From all recollection it was Tuesday we -performed. I don’t know. It could have been Tuesday afternoon that we -got back. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you go back to Dallas? - -Mr. WALL. I don’t remember, sir, now what day it was we left. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen Jack Ruby after the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you see him? - -Mr. WALL. It was the first Saturday or the second Saturday after the -assassination I was in the hotel room watching the football game and it -was in the afternoon and Sheriff Bill Decker called me and said that -Jack was very depressed and needed some cheering up and wanted to know -if I would come down, so I went down. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long after Sheriff Decker’s call did you arrive at the -jail? - -Mr. WALL. I would say between half an hour and 45 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at the jail? - -Mr. WALL. I would say about 20 minutes, maybe. - -Mr. SPECTER. State as specifically as you can recollect the nature of -your conversation with Jack Ruby indicating what he said to you and -what you said to him? - -Mr. WALL. Well, I wasn’t the only person there. There were two other -people there, one man I don’t know—I have seen him around before. -The other man was, I’m sure you have it in your records, he was the -partner of Jack in the club who tried to run it after Jack had shot -Oswald. I can’t think of the man’s name. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the first name of either of those men? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. I know them by face. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anyone else present besides the four of you? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; except for the two policemen that were inside the -tank where Jack was. He was inside the tank. - -Mr. SPECTER. What conversation ensued while you were present with Mr. -Ruby? - -Mr. WALL. Well, the main thing Jack brought out was he thought himself -correct in shooting Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. For what reason? - -Mr. WALL. A far as I can remember he didn’t give a reason. He just -said, you know. “I was right in doing it.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Did any one disagree with him? - -Mr. WALL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why not? - -Mr. WALL. Well, they just didn’t say anything against him. I can’t -remember the incident too well. I do know that Jack was very upset and -the two men, on the outside, didn’t argue with him at all in anything -that he said, and they said they wouldn’t. I remember them making the -comment to each other they weren’t going to upset him, and whatever -he said they would just nod yes to and would agree with; they weren’t -going to get him upset. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to Jack, if anything? - -Mr. WALL. I talked to him about Phil. - -Mr. SPECTER. Phil who? - -Mr. WALL. Burleson. “I was wondering if Phil came up to see you,” and, -“I asked him to come up,” and “If you can get him to represent you as -one of the attorneys,” and everything. “I think it would be very good -for you since he was at one time the assistant district attorney.” I -said, “I think he would do a good job for you. He is very honest, very -aboveboard,” and Jack said, “Yes, he came to see me and I think he -would do well and I would like to use him if I can.” Then I asked him -how they were treating him in jail and he said how nice they were to -him and he asked me what I was doing. I told him I was watching the -football game and Sheriff Decker said I could come down and see him. -Then he asked me specifically did I want to get involved in the case in -any way, or something like that, and I told him under the circumstances -please don’t ever use our name or anything. It’s not that I didn’t like -him. It was just that it might ruin our careers that we worked very -hard for. He gave me his word he would never use us, say anything about -us in any publication or anything. This was very true. While we were in -Houston he needed money and wrote an article for a series of newspapers -and he stated in the article, toward the end he made a call to Joe -Feder and Beck Wald, which I thought was very nice of him and all the -other circumstances in the article that I could see he used the names -of the people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Joe Feder was really Joe Peterson? - -Mr. WALL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And Beck Wald was really you? - -Mr. WALL. Me; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything more about the conversation -that you had at the jail on the Saturday you refer to? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. It was the first time I had seen him since the -assassination and it was just, you know, kind of strange meeting. There -wasn’t any fun in it at all, you know, like laughs. Sheriff Decker told -me he wanted to be cheered up. It was not like that at all. It was a -very sad thing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby since? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I have gotten a few letters from Jack. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many? - -Mr. WALL. I would say about three. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did he write to you? - -Mr. WALL. From the jail. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you received those letters? - -Mr. WALL. In—I think I received two in Dallas and I would say one in -Houston, and they were very simple letters, just how he was feeling -and, you know, what he was doing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you respond? - -Mr. WALL. Yes; I wrote him back and told him what we were doing and how -we were doing and I hoped he was well. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you write to him? - -Mr. WALL. Maybe three or four times. I don’t know. I do remember -another thing we discussed while he was in the jail. He said he was -writing—I remember two things—he was writing down his memoirs and -wanted to do it into a story form and would I be interested in doing it -for him. I told him I would see. And the other thing he mentioned to -me is he had received a lot of telegrams and letters from all over the -country saying he was correct in doing what he did, or he was wrong in -doing what he did, or whatever it was. He was getting so many in he had -no way of writing them back. He wanted to thank each and every one for -writing to him and wanted to know if I would correspond with them on -behalf of him and that is when I said, “I would rather not get involved -in any way and you can understand why.” And he said, “Yes, I do.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any other contacts at all with Jack Ruby -after November 24, 1963? - -Mr. WALL. Only through corresponding letters. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have now mentioned all of the contacts you have had -with him? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 21—— - -Mr. WALL. I have one. I’m sorry. I do have one. As I said, Phil -Burleson is Joe’s and my attorney and, therefore, I would go see Phil -every once in awhile just to give Jack a message of hello, that we -are thinking of him, and to see how he was. We were all right and -everything. I did ask Phil to do this for me. Every once in awhile I -would do it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the contacts you have had with -Ruby since November 24, 1963? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 21, the day before the -assassination in 1963, did you have occasion to talk by telephone to -Tom McKenna on that day? - -Mr. WALL. The day before? - -Mr. SPECTER. The assassination? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all unless it was about football. I am a -football fanatic. It was the day before. This would be Thursday, right? - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it refresh your recollection if I said you had a -telephone call with him at about 6:50 on that day? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; it wouldn’t because I call him quite frequently. -I just made a telephone call to him day before yesterday. Unless it -was just to say hello and everything. We did not decide to go down to -Galveston until that afternoon, the day after the assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you known Edward Parker of Fort Worth? - -Mr. WALL. Eddie Parker is—came to work for us for Bottoms Up at the -Adolphus and he would help in costume changes and setting up the props. -We had a portable stage which he would set up and get everything ready -before the show would start. That would be about a year and a half, but -we performed at the Playbill Club, we performed a show which he also -helped us in, called Razzmataz was the name of the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall telephoning him on October 1st, 3d, and 4th, -1963? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; I would call him in any respect to the show. The -only reason I would have anything to do with him would be to tell him -whether we would do a television show, needed him there and needed Carl -Tressler, who was in our show. They are roommates. Anytime I would call -them would be in reference to the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. You already mentioned you called him on November 22. - -Mr. WALL. To tell him probably that the show had been canceled. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was that call made, if you recall? - -Mr. WALL. Well, it would probably be around, I would say, 1 or 2 -o’clock. As soon as Mr. Anderson told us we would not perform that -night or Saturday. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been as late as 6 that evening? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; it could have been as I was going out of town to -tell him I was leaving and would be in Galveston; if they needed to get -hold of me to call the operator. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you didn’t go to Galveston on Friday, November 22, did -you? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; that was just to tell him we were not going to do a -show that night. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Patricia Farmer? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Clarence Vought? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What relatives, if any, does Tom McKenna have in Dallas? - -Mr. WALL. The only one that would be there would be his son who is 18 -years old, George McKenna, who was working on a construction job at the -Republic National Bank. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know R. D. Matthews? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew anybody by the name of -R. D. Matthews? - -Mr. WALL. Only if that was the man I couldn’t think of in the previous -statement. I said I knew their faces but not their names, but the name -doesn’t ring a bell at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Jack Ruby’s trip to Cuba? - -Mr. WALL. I have never heard of anything like that at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anybody by the name of Henry Atcheson, -A-t-c-h-e-s-o-n, or Henry Acteson, A-c-t-e-s-o-n? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone call from the Adolphus Hotel to -anyone in Canada during March of 1964? - -Mr. WALL. I can’t remember ever calling Canada. As I stated before to -you the only one that I ever knew in Canada was Kay Sutton, who was a -performer in our show who was somewhere in Canada. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know James F. Mahon? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; he is my attorney, too. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a call to him on November 23, that is -Saturday after the assassination? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; possibly. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call, if I may ask? - -Mr. WALL. Well, to find out, possibly, if he knew anything about Jack; -to see if he was going to represent Jack or anything. He also knew Jack -Ruby. - -Mr. SPECTER. This was the day before the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. WALL. Well, it could be any business thing. Phil handled most of -our things but as things stand right now Jim Mahon handles everything -for us, our bookkeeping and everything, so it could have been anything -at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other calls on November 23, 1963, if you -can remember? - -Mr. WALL. The 23d was—— - -Mr. SPECTER. That is Saturday. - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I could have called any number of people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a call to RI 8-1434? - -Mr. WALL. That number—that could have been Jim Mahon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Jim Mahon’s number Riverside 8-4361 or do you recall? - -Mr. WALL. No; that is his number. I do know—Riverside, 1434, I don’t -know, sir. I’m sure I placed quite a few calls that day. I talked to a -lot of people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have a financial interest with Jack Ruby in -the Sovereign Club? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir; not as far as putting in our own money at all; only -that we would retain a percentage of the club. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by “retain a percentage of the club”? - -Mr. WALL. For doing our shows there because we only received a small -salary, as I said, $125 a week. He said he would give us a portion of -the club. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you mean a percentage of the gross receipts or a -percentage of the net receipts? - -Mr. WALL. I mean a percent of the club, period. - -Mr. SPECTER. Half ownership in the club? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that ever formalized into a written contract? - -Mr. WALL. As far as I know it was, sir, but I don’t remember where the -papers are. I think they were destroyed in the fire at the Playbill -Club. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever get such an interest in the Sovereign Club? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Federal Bureau -of Investigation or any other other Federal agency regarding your -connection with Jack Ruby? - -Mr. WALL. I have never been called into an office and interviewed -at all. Possibly there were some men who came by and asked me a few -questions but I can’t remember it. It was that vague. I do know Joe -Peterson was interviewed by some representatives of the FBI. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you think you may have been interviewed by the FBI, but -you are not sure? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever tell the FBI anything about Ruby’s telephone -call on the night of November 23 to you in Galveston? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; if they interviewed me I definitely told them about -it because it was very important. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you are just not sure whether or not they interviewed -you? - -Mr. WALL. I will tell you, things happened so fast. I definitely -remember Joe came back and said, “Two representatives want to talk to -you,” but I don’t remember ever talking to them. - -Mr. SPECTER. You don’t have any specific recollection of ever talking -to them or telling them about that telephone call from Jack Ruby on -Saturday, November 23? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, did you and I have a brief interview before this -deposition started today? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And during the course of that interview did I ask you the -outline of the questions which we have covered here on the record? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were your answers the same as you told me here this -afternoon? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful in any way to the President’s Commission? - -Mr. WALL. Well, the only thing that I stated to you before is that -previously I said that Jack and Joe got into a fight when he blew his -stack but then on the other hand there was a time when we needed $300 -very desperately and Jack in a matter of 10 minutes went over and got -a loan on his own car for us so that the man does have feelings and he -can flare up in 5 minutes and then forget about it, you know. I can’t, -but he is one type of person who can. You never know what he is going -to do next. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Ralph Paul? - -Mr. WALL. That was the name of the gentleman who was visiting Jack at -the same time I was that I could not remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that time in the jail have you ever talked to -Ralph Paul? - -Mr. WALL. Very, very little. Jack at one time has taken Joe and I -to a bowling alley—I remember Ralph Paul was along—and took us for -breakfast. We bowled a game but I still didn’t say seven or eight words -to the man. I was very friendly but I still didn’t say anything to him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any effort to telephone Ralph Paul anytime on -November 22 or 23? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or November 24? - -Mr. WALL. No, sir. I wouldn’t even know how to get ahold of the man. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, if you wish, we can make available the typed-up -copy of this deposition for you to read and sign, or if you are -willing, you can waive that signature which means that you will not -read and sign the transcript. Do you have any preference on the subject? - -Mr. WALL. I will do whatever is the easiest, for you all and the best -way. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing then to waive your reading and signature? - -Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We appreciate that. We will then accept your waiver. -It may or may not be made available for you to read and sign. Thank you -very much for your appearing here today. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ALEXANDER PETERSON - -The testimony of Joseph Alexander Peterson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on -August 5, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, -Las Vegas, Nev., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the -President’s Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show present at this time is Mr. Joseph -Peterson. Mr. Peterson, the President’s Commission on the Assassination -of President Kennedy has asked you to appear so that we may take your -deposition concerning any knowledge you have of Mr. Jack Ruby, his -activities during the period around the assassination of President -Kennedy, and any of his associates. With that preliminary statement of -purpose, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this -proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PETERSON. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name? - -Mr. PETERSON. Joseph Alexander Peterson. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been known by any other name? - -Mr. PETERSON. Joseph Jablonka. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that the name under which you were born, sir? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say that has been legally changed? - -Mr. PETERSON. Legally changed. My stepfather’s name is Walter Peterson. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was your name changed from Jablonka to Peterson? - -Mr. PETERSON. November 1965. I remember that well because that was when -I was married. - -Mr. SPECTER. November of what? - -Mr. PETERSON. 19—excuse me, 1946. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your birthday? - -Mr. PETERSON. February 14, 1924. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born? - -Mr. PETERSON. Brooklyn, NY. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where have you lived since the time you were born? - -Mr. PETERSON. Let’s see, now. I have lived in Flatbush, Rogers Avenue, -649 Rogers Avenue, and—— - -Mr. SPECTER. Until when? - -Mr. PETERSON. Wait a minute. Before that, 280 19th Street, Brooklyn, -N.Y. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Brooklyn altogether? - -Mr. PETERSON. The family; all our lives. Me, I went in the service, -came out, went to Jacksonville, Fla. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you live in Brooklyn until you went into the service? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you go into the service? - -Mr. PETERSON. 1941. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in the service? - -Mr. PETERSON. 1945. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after leaving the service? - -Mr. PETERSON. 1946 I went to—back home. - -Mr. SPECTER. Brooklyn? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Brooklyn after 1946? - -Mr. PETERSON. Let’s see. I guess a period about up until 1950. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after 1950? - -Mr. PETERSON. New Orleans. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in New Orleans? - -Mr. PETERSON. Three years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after that? - -Mr. PETERSON. Jacksonville, Fla. No; wait a minute. I didn’t go to -Jacksonville, Fla. I visited Jacksonville, went to New Orleans, then -from New Orleans, Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. When? - -Mr. PETERSON. 1950, 1951, 1952. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s go back to 1950. You were living in Brooklyn at that -time? - -Mr. PETERSON. Just before that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go then in 1950? - -Mr. PETERSON. To New Orleans. Now, approximately—probably it was the -end of 1950 because 1951 was so close. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in New Orleans? - -Mr. PETERSON. Two and a half to three years, and then I went to Dallas, -Tex. I lived there ever since. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you move to Dallas? - -Mr. PETERSON. About the end of 1953 or 1954. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live thereafter in Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. PETERSON. Up to now. I went to—let’s see, now. I went to Houston -with the show last February. Up until last February I was in Dallas, -Tex. I was in the show in Houston, February, March, April, May, -June-January, February, March, then came here. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time? - -Mr. PETERSON. Producer. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of what? - -Mr. PETERSON. Coproducer of musical shows with Breck Wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where are you employed right now? - -Mr. PETERSON. Castaways Casino. - -Mr. SPECTER. Here in Las Vegas? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. In Las Vegas. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in show business? - -Mr. PETERSON. Since about 1959. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you known Mr. Breck Wall? - -Mr. PETERSON. Since 1959. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, did you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. PETERSON. I knew Jack Ruby—let me think, now. Probably it was the -last part of 1961 and we did one show there at his club. I believe it -was 1961. I’m trying to figure. We went back to the Adolphus in 1962. -It was probably in 1961. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say “one show,” what do you mean by that? - -Mr. PETERSON. Did a musical revue called Sticks and Stones there. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did that last? - -Mr. PETERSON. Lasted about 2 or 3 months, I guess. We had problems. - -Mr. SPECTER. What problems did you have? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, a lot of disagreements. At the time Jack was -changing the club from a—he was reopening it. It was called the -Sovereign. He was making it into a private club. He wanted to do -something different. We were successful across the street with our -revue. He talked to us about putting the show up there, going 50-50 on -a business basis with the club which we never received anything about. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever enter into an agreement with Jack Ruby -wherein you were to have a 50-50 interest in it? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; this was written up with Vic Victorson, his attorney. - -Mr. SPECTER. Victorson? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; Victor Victorson. - -Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that? - -Mr. PETERSON. Victorson. - -Mr. SPECTER. V-i-c-t-o-r-s-o-n? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; the agreement was with him. It never held up though. -We got nothing. - -Mr. SPECTER. You never received any interest in the club? - -Mr. PETERSON. Not a thing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever endeavor to enforce that agreement? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; the only thing we ever got out of it was through a -loan. I think Breck borrowed $300 to go to New York on a business trip. -That is all the money we received out of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever try to make Jack Ruby live up to the -agreement in any other way? - -Mr. PETERSON. There was no use. Jack Ruby, in spite of our -disagreements, he was kind of good natured in a way. The best thing to -do was to bow out quietly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you first meet Jack Ruby in approximately September -1961, when you played “Sticks and Stones”? - -Mr. PETERSON. About that time; a little before that he came up to visit -us at the club. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was that? - -Mr. PETERSON. September of 1960. Sometime around in there. He came up -like a lot of club owners do. I think when we reopened the club he came -up and visited us. We were introduced to him as Jack Ruby. That was all. - -Mr. SPECTER. After you terminated your business relationship with him -when the show “Sticks and Stones” ended, how frequently, if at all, did -you see him thereafter? - -Mr. PETERSON. He came and visited us quite a lot at the Century Room. -He would come in when he had guests, big-shot type of thing, wanted to -be recognized. He was very nice. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a cordial relationship notwithstanding your -prior difficulties? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right; right. Like I say, it was best to keep everything -on a hello-goodbye basis. - -Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did you see him after 1962? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, normally, like bump into him. It was only across -the street. We were living at the Adolphus. Back and forth. It’s hard -to tell how many times. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any more business dealings with him? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; once we went into bankruptcy, Breck and I, and like -when all friendship failed we went to Jack Ruby and he came through. He -was real fine. Loaned us money. We paid him back. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much money did he loan you? - -Mr. PETERSON. It wasn’t exactly a loan. It was a thing, holding on -costumes we had for the show. It was $400. - -Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge did Jack Ruby have any association with -any of the criminal elements? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, if you want to go by hearsay, yes; but actually I -don’t know of any. In fact he was in thicker with the police in Dallas -than anybody else I knew of because they were always in his place. - -Mr. SPECTER. What hearsay are you referring to? - -Mr. PETERSON. I am talking about any hearsay. Because of his character -automatically people would take him as a thug. - -Mr. SPECTER. What aspect of his character would cause people to do that? - -Mr. PETERSON. Outward appearance. - -Mr. SPECTER. Anything besides outward appearance? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; Jack, in spite of our differences, he was a nice, a -good man. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see him associate with any of the criminal -element personally? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; no. - -Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was Jack Ruby a member of any -organization which advocated the forceful overthrow of the U.S. -Government? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was any member of his family a member of -any such organization? - -Mr. PETERSON. I know nothing about his family except I had met his -sister. - -Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge were any of his friends or associates -members of any subversive organization? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you see Jack Ruby most recently prior to November -22, 1963? - -Mr. PETERSON. I guess it was before we went to Galveston. Sometime -before then. I couldn’t peg it down. I’m sure we saw him. Like I say, -we saw him on the street there. Next thing was the call and that was it. - -Mr. SPECTER. You don’t recall seeing him specifically on any special -date prior to the day of the assassination? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you do think, in a general way, you must have seen him -because he was in the area? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the day of the assassination? - -Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as specifically as you can recollect what you did -on that day? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, there was going to be the parade. We went down and -stood on the marquee of the Adolphus Hotel. We were there with some -newspaper people we knew and everybody at the hotel. The President -passed by. We came back in the lobby. Next thing we knew we heard on -the television he had been shot. That was it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next; if anything? - -Mr. PETERSON. As well as I can remember either we called or went -upstairs, told the rest of the kids in the cast, those that weren’t -out. Just astonishment. Everybody was in the lobby just moving around. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave the hotel on that day? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to sleep that night, if you recall? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, that night we didn’t have a show. I don’t believe -we had a show. No; we didn’t have a show that night. They canceled it -for three nights. That is when we went to Galveston. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you go to Galveston specifically? - -Mr. PETERSON. Let me think. When was the 22d? What day was that? - -Mr. SPECTER. The 22d was a Friday. - -Mr. PETERSON. It was that night. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to Galveston Friday or Saturday? - -Mr. PETERSON. I’m not sure whether it was Friday or Saturday because -they canceled the show. I think it might have been the next day. I -don’t know. I could not be sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect what you did next day before you went to -Galveston; if in fact it was that day you went to Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. The next day before we went to Galveston? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you have told me—let’s go back to Friday. You told me -you stayed around the hotel the balance of that day. - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then you say you went to Galveston either Friday or -Saturday? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me, to the best of your recollection, everything that -you did before you went to Galveston from the time of the assassination -on. - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, we stayed at the hotel, found out if they were -going to have a show; that is why I think it was Friday now, asking -Andy Anderson. I think we picked up and left that night. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls that day? - -Mr. PETERSON. Breck might have called his mother in Galveston. I don’t -know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What are the names of the people you refer to as his -mother and father? - -Mr. PETERSON. Mr. and Mrs. Tom McKenna. - -Mr. SPECTER. They are not his real parents though? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; they raised him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a phone call to Emerson 1-4534 on the day of -the assassination? - -Mr. PETERSON. Emerson 1-4534. Who was it? I don’t remember the number. - -Mr. SPECTER. I am not able to give that to you, Mr. Peterson. - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, then I can’t remember that. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about Riverside 2-6811? - -Mr. PETERSON. Riverside 2-6811? I don’t know that number either. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any telephone calls which you made on -November 22 or 23? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; like I say, the only calls I probably made were -around the hotel. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at Galveston; to the best of your -recollection? - -Mr. PETERSON. If we left Friday it takes 4 hours. We probably left -about, maybe 5, 6. Got there about 11 or 12. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. Made ourselves at home like we always do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was there when you arrived? - -Mr. PETERSON. Mr. and Mrs. McKenna; the family. - -Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides Mr. and Mrs. McKenna? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t think so. I don’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls from Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. I don’t think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Wall make any telephone calls? - -Mr. PETERSON. Somebody called us, newspaper people, I think, out of -Washington, some magazine wanted to know some stuff, I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. What magazine was that? - -Mr. PETERSON. I have no idea. Some newspaper. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall specifically the name of the man who called -you? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to him? - -Mr. PETERSON. I think I did. Yes; I did talk to him. That is why I -remember. I’m trying to think. - -Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your recollection tell me specifically what -you said to him and what he said to you? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, just wanted to know—let me see. Was it there or -was it at the hotel? They wanted a—Time, I think it was Time, or Life, -because the man in Life is located in Dallas. He just wanted to know if -we had any pictures with Jack Ruby or anything we had done for a story. -I told him we did not have anything. Didn’t bother with it. - -Mr. SPECTER. While you were in Galveston did you receive any other -telephone calls? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; I’m trying to think. Somebody from some newspaper; -I believe it was in Washington. Some magazine or some newspaper. Breck -probably will remember better than I do. He has a better memory. They -wanted some information on Jack Ruby. I couldn’t give them any. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that call, did Breck Wall receive any telephone -call while you were in Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. I think he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. From whom? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, the only one was from Jack Ruby. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me about that call? - -Mr. PETERSON. Jack was very upset about—— - -Mr. SPECTER. When did it come in? - -Mr. PETERSON. It was in the evening some time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What day? - -Mr. PETERSON. On the day before. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before what? - -Mr. PETERSON. Assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before the assassination or before the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. PETERSON. Before the shooting of Oswald. I’m getting them both -mixed up. It was the day before Oswald’s assassination, or murder, -whatever you want to call it. Jack called and was very upset about the -assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby on that? - -Mr. PETERSON. I don’t think I did. I think Breck did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Breck Wall relate to you what that conversation was -about? - -Mr. PETERSON. The call would have been Saturday. We went down there -Friday. That is when it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was that telephone conversation between Jack Ruby and -Breck Wall all about? - -Mr. PETERSON. What I just told you. Breck kind of soothed him a little -bit. Nothing you could do. All this baloney. Well, it happened, you -know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby said anything about intending to -do anything? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; not to my knowledge. He didn’t relate that to me. -Just he was very upset. Very sick; crying and all of that. That was it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other subject discussed between Ruby and -Breck Wall? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; Jack was very close to us. He made himself close -to us, you know. We were always in the headlines. Always in the -newspapers. We were very good friends with a lot of people in Dallas. -He kind of tried to keep up with us, you know, close. Anytime he had -any problems or things like that he always came to talk to us about it, -or ideas for the club. He came to bug us about that, you know. We were -more or less successful in Dallas. Like I say; the best thing to do was -just be nice and kind of stay away as much as possible. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other telephone calls which you made or -which you received while you were in Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. Not—I can’t remember right now. I just don’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other telephone calls which Breck Wall made -or received while the two of you were in Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. He probably talked to Tony Zoppi. - -Mr. SPECTER. Zoppi? - -Mr. PETERSON. Zoppi; he is the amusement critic on the Dallas Morning -News. We are very close friends. He probably talked to him about that. - -Mr. SPECTER. You don’t recall specifically? You presume that might have -have happened? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other calls you know about while you were in -Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you go back to Dallas? - -Mr. PETERSON. Probably Tuesday. I think we went back Tuesday. We had a -show Tuesday. Ordinarily do. The show is closed for the weekend. It was -Tuesday when we went back; I’m pretty sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Jack Ruby after the day of the -shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; I got a little, letters from him, note when he was in -jail. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you receive that note? - -Mr. PETERSON. It was a few days after the FBI questioned us. He wrote -me a little thank you note because I spoke up for him. Like I am -telling you, he was all right in spite of him being no good, too. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI question you? - -Mr. PETERSON. When we were in Dallas. When we were working at the hotel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the approximate date when they talked to you? - -Mr. PETERSON. Possibly a week, 2 weeks after the Oswald—— - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you then? - -Mr. PETERSON. Living at the hotel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the interview with the Federal Bureau of Investigation -conducted at your hotel? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; it was at the hotel. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at that time? - -Mr. PETERSON. I think it was Mr.—who is the head of the FBI in Dallas? -He was the one. Griffin. Griffith. I believe it was Griffith. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody with him? - -Mr. PETERSON. There was somebody else sitting at the table. I’m not -sure who it was. Tony Zoppi; I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Zoppi was present at the time of the interview? - -Mr. PETERSON. I believe; he was either there before, after. Tony always -has breakfast there. We were all sitting at the table. Mr. Griffith -came over. - -Mr. SPECTER. The special agent in charge there is Gordon Shanklin. - -Mr. PETERSON. This was Mr. Griffith. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Shanklin present? - -Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Wall present at the time Mr. Griffith talked to -you? - -Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know; he might have been. Seems to me three -people were at the table. I’m trying to recollect. Breck might have -been there. We eat breakfast together there usually. It was either -breakfast or lunch. I’m never sure which it is because we always get up -around 11 or 12. - -Mr. SPECTER. When Mr. Griffith or Griffin interviewed you, did you tell -him about the telephone call that Jack Ruby made to Breck Wall? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; we told him all that. In fact this is a little -clearer than that. Everything is a little fresher in my mind. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you told him of that telephone call? - -Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know if I did; I’m sure Breck did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when Breck Wall talked to the FBI? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. How can you say you are sure Breck Wall told him of the -telephone call? - -Mr. PETERSON. Because Breck is very much in the habit of doing the -right thing. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that would be your presumption he did? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. You actually weren’t there when Breck Wall talked to the -FBI man? - -Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not you personally told the agent -from the FBI about the telephone call from Ruby in Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by the FBI more than once or once? - -Mr. PETERSON. Just the once, although I felt like it was more than -once talking to them going up and down in the elevators, there were a -hundred of them there. Couldn’t miss them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how Ruby knew how to call you in Galveston? - -Mr. PETERSON. What he probably did was call the hotel and ask where we -were because we always left a telephone call where we were at. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why do you do that? - -Mr. PETERSON. It was our policy to do that. If they wanted to start the -show they had to know where we were at. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you find out Ruby had shot Oswald? - -Mr. PETERSON. When we were watching TV. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where? - -Mr. PETERSON. Galveston; in McKenna’s home. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you recognize Ruby then? - -Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. You could recognize Ruby? - -Mr. PETERSON. Couldn’t miss it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your reaction on that? - -Mr. PETERSON. Shock. Unbelievable, really. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Breck Wall called Phil Burleson from -Galveston that day? - -Mr. PETERSON. I think he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call? - -Mr. PETERSON. I have no idea. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he discuss it with you before he made the call? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether he called Nancy Austin? - -Mr. PETERSON. He probably called everybody up when that happened. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know specifically whether the call was to Nancy -Austin? - -Mr. PETERSON. I think probably. Because of what he saw on the TV and -about the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eddie Parker? - -Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes; he used to work for us backstage at the Adolphus. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever call him up? - -Mr. PETERSON. Probably. In reference to the show because he had -connection with Tressler in the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Breck Wall call him up? - -Mr. PETERSON. He probably did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his purpose? - -Mr. PETERSON. In regards to the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Patricia Farmer? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Clarence Vought? - -Mr. PETERSON. A lot of these people I might know when I see them. Breck -knows. He is good on names. - -Mr. SPECTER. The name Clarence Vought doesn’t mean anything to you? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What relatives, if any, does Tom McKenna have in Dallas? - -Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know anything about them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know R. D. Matthews? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t remember. I might. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Jack Ruby’s trip to Cuba? - -Mr. PETERSON. Nothing. Only thing I know about that is when I read it -later in the papers. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know a man by the name of Henry Atcheson? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or Henry Acteson? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. I am saying no to a lot of these. I may know them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about a telephone call to Mr. -Atcheson or Mr. Acteson in Canada back in March of 1964? - -Mr. PETERSON. That I made? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make such a call? - -Mr. PETERSON. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Breck Wall ever make such a call to your knowledge? - -Mr. PETERSON. He might have. I don’t know. Canada? Only one thing we -had to do, that was a man who wanted to buy the show for one night and -fly us up there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his name? - -Mr. PETERSON. Wohl, W-o-h-l. He got in touch with us about a show. - -Mr. SPECTER. What part of Canada was he from? - -Mr. PETERSON. I don’t recollect right now. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his first name? - -Mr. PETERSON. I think it was Jack. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he in Calgary, Alberta, Canada? - -Mr. PETERSON. That is it. Calgary. Some organization. He was trying to -get us booked for this, whatever it was, that they celebrate. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was his name Wall, W-a-l-l? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; Breck Wall is my partner. This other was Wohl, -W-o-h-l. - -Mr. SPECTER. Wall? - -Mr. PETERSON. Maybe I’m spelling it wrong. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he with you in the Adolphus Hotel? - -Mr. PETERSON. He comes to our hotel quite a lot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he with you in March of 1964? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, he stayed there at the hotel. He saw a show two -or three times. He talked to us about the chance of booking a show in -Canada. He would get in touch with this organization he was with and -let us know, which he did by letter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever work that deal out? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why not? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, it just never materialized. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did he pronounce his name again? - -Mr. PETERSON. Wohl, I believe it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Phonetically it sounds the same as W-a-l-l? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. He was from Calgary, Alberta, Canada? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes. I’m pretty sure that is it. In fact I think we still -got that letter. I know it is W-o-h-l because I remarked on it, about -Breck Wall. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say you still do have that letter? - -Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you look for that and send it to me? - -Mr. PETERSON. Sure. Sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me write my name and address down for you so you can -do that. - -Mr. PETERSON. Fine. If I don’t have the letter we could get in touch -with the hotel. He always stays there. I’m sure they have records. - -Mr. SPECTER. His first name was Jack? - -Mr. PETERSON. I’m sure it was Jack; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Here is my name and address in Washington. - -Mr. PETERSON. He was connected with a big oil company. - -Mr. SPECTER. If you can find that letter and send it to me, I would be -much obliged to you. - -Mr. PETERSON. Sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do immediately after the assassination, if -you recall? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, we checked the hotel about the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go down to the Texas School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. PETERSON. I think we did; ran down to take a look. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that? - -Mr. PETERSON. Curiosity. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only purpose? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; along with a couple of thousand other people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what your reaction was when Breck Wall -received some telephone calls in Galveston from the Washington Post and -from the Dallas Morning News and the Dallas Times Herald? - -Mr. PETERSON. That is it. Washington Post. Well, I got a little angry, -told him not to say anything over the phone until we got back home. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you tell him not to say anything over the phone -until you got back home? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, you don’t know who you are talking to over the -phone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other reason in mind besides that? - -Mr. PETERSON. No; not at all. The only one I could recognize was the -Dallas Morning News people we knew. That was fine, but anybody else, I -don’t know who we were talking to. A lot of nuts would be calling you -up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s troubles with the -American Guild of Variety Artists? - -Mr. PETERSON. Jack had all kinds of problems and troubles with unions -and everybody else. Jack was like every other struggling nightclub -owner who was trying to get along the cheapest way he could. That was -it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does the telephone number Riverside 8-1434 in Dallas mean -anything to you? - -Mr. PETERSON. Let me see. No, I don’t know. Probably does, but I don’t -remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful to the President’s Commission in any way? - -Mr. PETERSON. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time when we went on the record here, Mr. -Peterson, did you and I have a very brief conversation concerning your -knowledge of Jack Ruby? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; we did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have I covered those questions and a number of others -during the course of the deposition on the record? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you gave to me on the record -the same as what you told me off the record earlier? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes; what I could remember—wait a minute, now. You said -“before”—— - -Mr. SPECTER. We have covered, have we not—— - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Everything on the record which we covered before? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Under the rules of the President’s Commission, Mr. -Peterson, you have a right to read and to sign this deposition if you -want to. Do you want to do that or would you be willing to waive that -reading and signing? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, what does—do you want me to sign it? I will sign it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any special interest in reading it and signing -it? - -Mr. PETERSON. Well, I’d like to read it, then I will sign it. I have no -objection to signing it but I’d like to read what I’m signing. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is fair enough. You did receive a letter from the -Commission? - -Mr. PETERSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Informing you you had a right to counsel if you wanted one -here today? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the other rules and regulations concerning the -proceedings in depositions before the President’s Commission, did you -not? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. And appearing here today was satisfactory with you as you -have appeared and testified without the representation of counsel? - -Mr. PETERSON. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. That concludes the deposition, then, Mr. -Peterson. We shall make available a copy of the transcript for you to -read and sign. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HARRY N. OLSEN - -The testimony of Harry N. Olsen was taken at 2:50 p.m., on August -6, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street, -Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the -President’s Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this deposition proceeding of the -President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is -being held at the U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street, -Los Angeles, Calif., in room 644, which is the room customarily used -for the grand jury proceedings. - -May the record further show that it is now 2:50 p.m. Pacific daylight -time on Thursday, August 6, 1964. Present is Mr. Harry Olsen, who -has appeared in response to a letter notification to appear for this -deposition. - -Mr. Olsen, did you receive a letter from the President’s Commission -with an insertion of the Executive order creating the Commission and -the rules and regulations for taking of depositions? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you receive that letter? - -Mr. OLSEN. Five or six days ago. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice that there was a provision in the rules and -regulations that you could have counsel with you if you so desired at -the present time? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you wish to have counsel with you? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t think it’s necessary. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. The Commission has asked you to appear, Mr. Olsen, -in order to testify about any knowledge which you have concerning -Mr. Jack Ruby and the shooting of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald and the -assassination of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of -purpose, I would like you to stand up and raise your right hand, if you -would. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this -deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. OLSEN. Harry N. Olsen. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your address at the present time, Mr. Olsen? - -Mr. OLSEN. 315 Obispo in Long Beach. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your date of birth? - -Mr. OLSEN. February the 16, 1934. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born? - -Mr. OLSEN. Wichita Falls, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. Outline briefly your educational background. - -Mr. OLSEN. Four years of high school, two and a half years of college. - -Mr. SPECTER. What college did you attend? - -Mr. OLSEN. Midwestern University. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you leave Midwestern University? - -Mr. OLSEN. 1954. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities after leaving Midwestern -University, by way of subsequent employment? - -Mr. OLSEN. The Army, 1954 to 1956, and working for my Dad. - -Mr. SPECTER. For how long did you work for your Dad? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, since I was 16. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, from 1956 on how long did you work for him? - -Mr. OLSEN. About a year. - -Mr. SPECTER. What type of work was that? - -Mr. OLSEN. Leather goods. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that in Wichita Falls, Tex.? - -Mr. OLSEN. That was in Henrietta, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after terminating your employment with -your father in about 1957 then? - -Mr. OLSEN. I went to Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was your occupation in Dallas? - -Mr. OLSEN. A claims investigator for an insurance company. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you so employed? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 7 or 8 months. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you next do for a living? - -Mr. OLSEN. I worked for a finance company. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you employed by the finance company? - -Mr. OLSEN. About 8 months. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was your next occupation? - -Mr. OLSEN. Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your rank in the police department? - -Mr. OLSEN. Patrolman. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you employed by the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. OLSEN. Five and a half years. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your employment with the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. OLSEN. In the latter part of December, 1963. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how were you employed after December of 1963? - -Mr. OLSEN. I left Dallas and came to California and am working for a -collection agency. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you held that same job from the time you first -arrived here in Los Angeles until the present time? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single, Mr. Olsen? - -Mr. OLSEN. Married. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the name of your wife? - -Mr. OLSEN. Kay. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was her name prior to her marriage to you? - -Mr. OLSEN. Kay Coleman. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was her occupation prior to being married to you, -that is where was she employed? - -Mr. OLSEN. She was employed at the Carousel Club. - -Mr. SPECTER. When were you and Mrs. Kay Olsen married? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was December. It could have been January. - -Mr. SPECTER. December of what year? - -Mr. OLSEN. 1963, or January of 1964. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you first become acquainted with Mr. Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, about 3 years ago. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your making his -acquaintance? - -Mr. OLSEN. I was with the police department at the time and I was -working that area where his club was, and it was a routine check of his -place. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you and Jack Ruby get along during the time you -knew him? - -Mr. OLSEN. We spoke. And sometimes he would get mad and I would talk to -him and calm him down a little bit. - -Mr. SPECTER. How often did you visit Jack Ruby’s club, the Carousel -Club? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, once a week, I guess. Sometimes more and sometimes less. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any disputes with Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Sometimes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of the disputes? - -Mr. OLSEN. He would get mad with some of his help, some of his -employees mostly, or customers. And he was erratic and hotheaded. - -Mr. SPECTER. What specific indications did you observe that he was -erratic or hotheaded? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, sometimes he would get so mad that he would shake. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would cause him to get that mad? - -Mr. OLSEN. Anything. I mean, he would just fly off the handle about -anything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me a specific illustration of what caused him -on any occasion to become that angry? - -Mr. OLSEN. Mostly with his help. - -Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you said that you had disagreements with him -over the way he treated his help. What was it about the way he treated -his help which caused you to have any disagreement with Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, they would want to quit and he would get upset about -that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relation only to Mrs. Kay Olsen who was an -employee of his, or did that apply to other employees as well? - -Mr. OLSEN. Others. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why was it that you were concerned about other employees? - -Mr. OLSEN. He would talk to me about it and ask me what I thought, and -I would try to tell him to just calm down. - -Mr. SPECTER. But as a result of those conversations with Ruby, you had -disagreements with him? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not very often. Not very often. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me any other information as to what caused -any disagreement between you and Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, I can’t think of anything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you living in the fall of 1963, say in -September of 1963? - -Mr. OLSEN. On Theatre Lane. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where was Mrs. Kay Olsen, who was then not your wife, -living at that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. On Ewing. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was her specific address, if you recall? - -Mr. OLSEN. 325 North Ewing, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your relationship with Kay in the fall of 1963? - -Mr. OLSEN. We were going together. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was she unmarried at that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had she been married previously? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was her divorce final, if you know? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an approximate date as to when it was -final? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell me if it was a few months or a few years -before 1963? - -Mr. OLSEN. I just don’t know. She might know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you married or single in the fall of 1963? - -Mr. OLSEN. I was single. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you been married prior to that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was your divorce final? - -Mr. OLSEN. October of 1963. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you separated from your wife prior to October of 1963? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When were you first separated from your former wife? - -Mr. OLSEN. About 6 months before that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you going with or steadily dating Kay, then, from -the early fall of 1963 on up until the time that you married her in -December of 1963, or January of 1964? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Ruby live in the fall of 1963, say September -of 1963, if you know? - -Mr. OLSEN. He lived on Ewing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall—— - -Mr. OLSEN. Right at Stemmons Freeway. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far was that from Kay’s house? - -Mr. OLSEN. Approximately 4 or 5 blocks. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far was Mr. Ruby’s residence from your residence? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, boy. Oh, it was, I would guess, 2 or 3 miles. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever live only 1 block away from Mr. Ruby’s -residence? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever visit you at your apartment? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever visit Kay at her apartment? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times did he visit Kay at her apartment? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an approximation? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, seven or eight times. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you always present on those occasions? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of Jack Ruby’s visiting Kay? - -Mr. OLSEN. Sometimes he would be mad about something, and mad at an -employee, or sometimes he would stop by for breakfast after he closed -his club. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever any romantic connection between Jack Ruby -and Kay? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. It was just a cordial relationship which would lead him to -stop over and pay her a visit and have breakfast or something to that -effect? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Ruby friendly with many police officers employed by -the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances surrounding his friendship for -police officers? - -Mr. OLSEN. He seemed to like police officers. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for his affinity for police -officers, or for liking them especially? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, he just seemed to be friendly with all of them, wanted -to know them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know him very well? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. -Tippit? - -Mr. OLSEN. I heard that he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that? - -Mr. OLSEN. It was a rumor that he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you hear that rumor that he did know Officer -J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. OLSEN. While talking with other officers. I couldn’t specifically -say when. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that after Tippit was killed? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear anybody say that Jack Ruby knew Officer -J. D. Tippit before Officer Tippit was killed? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you recall specifically who it was who said that -Ruby knew Officer Tippit? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby and Officer J. D. Tippit -together? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, not that I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, think about that for just a minute and then see if -you recollect anything more specifically on whether or not you ever saw -Jack Ruby and Officer J. D. Tippit together. - -Mr. OLSEN. No, I don’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever do any favors for you, Mr. Olsen? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, like what? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, anything in a friendly way, such as do something you -asked him to do or something of that sort? Did you ever ask him to do -anything for you? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, I asked him to let Kay off sometimes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he honor that request? - -Mr. OLSEN. Most of the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever ask him to do anything besides letting Kay -off on occasion? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall November 22, 1963, the day President Kennedy -was assassinated? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me, as specifically as you can recollect, exactly -what your activities were on that day. - -Mr. OLSEN. I was employed by the Dallas Police Department and I was -working at an extra job guarding an estate. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whose estate was that? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember the name. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to get that extra job? - -Mr. OLSEN. A motorcycle officer was related to this elderly woman and -he was doing work, but he was in the motor—— - -Mr. SPECTER. Cade? - -Mr. OLSEN. Motorcade of the President, and I was off that day and able -to work it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the name of the motorcycle officer? - -Mr. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that estate located? - -Mr. OLSEN. On 8th Street in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the specific address or the cross street on -which it was located? - -Mr. OLSEN. It’s in the Oak Cliff area, it’s approximately two blocks -off of Stemmons. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the -police department on the day President Kennedy was in town? - -Mr. OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which -was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they -needed me to work that day and they said no. - -Mr. SPECTER. What sort of an accident did you have to injure your leg? - -Mr. OLSEN. I fell and broke my kneecap. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, several weeks before. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what hospital were you treated? - -Mr. OLSEN. Baylor Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir; it’s on Gaston. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you start to guard the estate on that -particular Friday? - -Mr. OLSEN. About 7 a.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that guard duty last? - -Mr. OLSEN. Until about 8. - -Mr. SPECTER. Eight p.m.? - -Mr. OLSEN. P.m., yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any visitors while you were guarding the -estate on that day? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was the visitor or visitors? - -Mr. OLSEN. Kay. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did she visit you? - -Mr. OLSEN. Right after the President was shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you learn of the assassination of the President? - -Mr. OLSEN. A woman called me on the phone who was a friend of the -person who had lived there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that woman was? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. And she wanted to know if I had heard the news, and -I said no and she said, “The President has been shot.” - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did that telephone call occur? - -Mr. OLSEN. Right after he was shot. I don’t know exactly what time it -was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else on the telephone or in person -between the telephone call and the time that Kay visited you? - -Mr. OLSEN. Passers-by. I went outside. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see outside? - -Mr. OLSEN. No one who I knew by name. They just said, “Have you heard -the news?” And I said, “Yes, I had.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other telephone calls while you were -guarding that house? - -Mr. OLSEN. I called the police department and asked them if they needed -me to work. - -Mr. SPECTER. To whom did you talk at the police department? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. What response did you get? - -Mr. OLSEN. They said no. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did Kay visit you on that Friday? - -Mr. OLSEN. In the afternoon sometime. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did she stay? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I would say an hour or two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have lunch on that Friday? - -Mr. OLSEN. There at the place that I was watching. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have supper that day? - -Mr. OLSEN. At her house. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to her house? And by “her” I take it -you mean Kay’s house? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then what time did you go to Kay’s house? - -Mr. OLSEN. When I got—when the motorcycle officer came and relieved me. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 8; about 8. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an automobile? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you get from the house which you were guarding to -Kay’s house? - -Mr. OLSEN. Walked. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far was it? - -Mr. OLSEN. About 4 blocks. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the cast on your knee restrict your walking in any -material way? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to walk with the cast on your knee? - -Mr. OLSEN. A little bit, not much. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you were able to walk well enough to cover those 4 -blocks to Kay’s house? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. And it swelled after I had walked it, though. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving at Kay’s house? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, going back to that, I had crutches, I believe, that I -used. Now, what was the question? - -Mr. SPECTER. After you arrived at Kay’s house, what did you do then? - -Mr. OLSEN. We talked about the assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Kay’s house? - -Mr. OLSEN. I would say several hours. - -Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you leave Kay’s house, to the best -of your ability to recollect? - -Mr. OLSEN. What time I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else at Kay’s house with you besides Kay? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what manner did you travel away from Kay’s house, by -foot, by car? - -Mr. OLSEN. By car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whose car was that? - -Mr. OLSEN. Mine. - -Mr. SPECTER. How was it that you didn’t have your car at the house -which you were guarding? - -Mr. OLSEN. I didn’t want to drive it, I don’t remember why. I think I -left it for her to use. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Kay go with you when you drove away from her house? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go? - -Mr. OLSEN. Downtown. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of your trip to town? - -Mr. OLSEN. To see where the President was shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go then to Dealey Plaza? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, we drove by there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go anyplace else? - -Mr. OLSEN. We went to a garage. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that garage located? - -Mr. OLSEN. Jackson and Field. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of going to a garage at Jackson and -Field? - -Mr. OLSEN. We knew the man who worked there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his name? - -Mr. OLSEN. Johnny is all I know him by. - -Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work did he do at that garage? - -Mr. OLSEN. He was an attendant. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you want to go see him? - -Mr. OLSEN. To talk. - -Mr. SPECTER. For any special purpose? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect about what time you arrived at that -garage? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 12, approximately. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Johnny when you were there? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else while you were at that garage? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who else did you see? - -Mr. OLSEN. Jack Ruby. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else besides Johnny and Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, before seeing Ruby at the garage on that Friday -night, when had you seen him most recently before that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. It could have been a few days or a week. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall where it was that you saw him prior to this -Friday night? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, it was probably outside of his club. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the specific instance, or are you just -saying what you think probably occurred? - -Mr. OLSEN. I am just saying what probably occurred, because I don’t -remember when I saw him before that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection what your conversation was -with Mr. Ruby when you saw him prior to this Friday night? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you talk to Mr. Ruby on this Friday night? - -Mr. OLSEN. Two or three hours. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present at the time of the conversation? - -Mr. OLSEN. Kay. - -Mr. SPECTER. And anybody else? - -Mr. OLSEN. Johnny. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anybody besides Johnny and Kay and Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as specifically as you can recall exactly what it -was that Ruby said and what it was that you and Kay and Johnny said in -reply to him? - -Mr. OLSEN. We were all upset about the President’s assassination, and -we were just talking about how we hated it, that it was a tragedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby say something to that effect? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes; very strongly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what his exact words were, by any chance? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe he said something to the effect that “It’s too bad -that a peon,” or a person like Oswald, “could do something like that,” -referring to shooting the President and the officer, Officer Tippit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything more about Oswald at that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. He cursed him. - -Mr. SPECTER. What specific language did he use? - -Mr. OLSEN. S.o.b. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other specific curse that you recollect Ruby -used in describing Oswald? - -Mr. OLSEN. He could have said something else, but I remember that. I’m -sure that he did say something else, but I don’t remember what it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything at that time about whether or not he -knew Oswald? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything at that time about whether or not he -knew Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. OLSEN. It seemed that he did know Officer Tippit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say, “It seemed that he did know Officer -Tippit”? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe he said that Tippit had been to his club. - -Mr. SPECTER. Recollect as specifically as you can exactly what he said -about that, if you can, Mr. Olsen. - -Mr. OLSEN. Something about Oswald shooting the President and Officer -Tippit and leaving the wife and children, and he kept referring to -Jacqueline. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, how about what you were referring to concerning -Ruby’s knowing Officer Tippit? What exactly did Ruby say at that time, -to the best of your ability to recollect, about any relationship or -acquaintanceship between Jack Ruby and J. D. Tippit? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, I just don’t remember if there was anything -specifically said about that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to Ruby during that conversation? - -Mr. OLSEN. I said it was a tragedy that this happened. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Johnny say to Ruby at that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. And he said, yes; it sure was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Johnny say anything else? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, we all talked; I don’t remember what exactly was said. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember anything specifically that Kay said at -that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. No. It was a shame that it had happened. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not Kay said something to the -effect that “In England they would have Oswald by his toes and drag him -through the street”? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had Kay talked to Ruby earlier on that Friday? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe that she did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that in person or by telephone? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was by phone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was she when she talked to him by phone, if you know? - -Mr. OLSEN. At her house. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where was Ruby, if you know? - -Mr. OLSEN. I think he was at his house. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time did that telephone conversation occur? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was in the afternoon sometime. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call, if you know? - -Mr. OLSEN. To find out if she had heard about the President’s -assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else said by either Kay or Ruby at that -time when they had telephone conversation? - -Mr. OLSEN. I wasn’t—I don’t believe I was there when she talked to him. - -Mr. SPECTER. How do you know about the call then? - -Mr. OLSEN. She said that she had talked to him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not they discussed whether or not -the Carousel Club would be open that night? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe they did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you know what Ruby said about that subject matter? - -Mr. OLSEN. He said that it would not be open. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Kay telephoned Ruby or Ruby telephoned -Kay on the occasion? - -Mr. OLSEN. No; I don’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you at that garage at Jackson and Field -before you saw Jack Ruby on that Friday night or early Saturday morning? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 30 minutes to an hour, I guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could that garage be located on Jackson and Akard, -A-k-a-r-d? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far is Jackson and Akard from Jackson and Field? - -Mr. OLSEN. One block. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss with Ruby the fact that he closed his club -that night? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if you recall? - -Mr. OLSEN. I said that it should be closed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you congratulate him for having closed it? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you shake his hand? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you pretty emotionally upset about the assassination -of President Kennedy at that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Kay pretty emotionally upset about the assassination -at that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about Johnny? - -Mr. OLSEN. He was, too; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What indication was there that you observed that Ruby was -emotionally upset about the assassination? - -Mr. OLSEN. He was very nervous. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what way was that evident? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, in his speech and his actions. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other indication that you were able to -observe that Ruby was upset about the assassination? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, the way he talked, and that was it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby mention anything about the Weissman advertisement -that appeared in the Dallas papers earlier that day? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that? - -Mr. OLSEN. He said they shouldn’t be open. - -Mr. SPECTER. What Weissman advertisement had appeared earlier that day? - -Mr. OLSEN. Just the usual ad in the paper about them being open. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any advertisement in the paper that day -containing derogatory statements about President Kennedy? - -Mr. OLSEN. There was something in the paper, I believe, about somebody -carrying banners in one part of town. - -Mr. SPECTER. What kind of banners were those? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe they were about President Kennedy, and what they -said, I don’t remember what it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember Ruby’s comment about that, or whether he -made one? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe he did say something about that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what it was? - -Mr. OLSEN. He said that it wasn’t right, and “I just wonder how they -feel about it now.” - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the radicals in Dallas at that -particular time? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the effect of all that on the -Jews? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that? - -Mr. OLSEN. No; he didn’t; I don’t believe he said anything about that; -no. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time was it—— - -Mr. OLSEN. Let me think about that for a minute, will you? - -Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead; take your time. - -Mr. OLSEN. I heard something about him saying after he shot Oswald that -he wondered if the other Jews would blame him for what he had done. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear that from Ruby personally? - -Mr. OLSEN. No; it was hearsay. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that? - -Mr. OLSEN. I either read it or heard it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall where you read it? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe—— - -Mr. SPECTER. Or from whom you heard it? - -Mr. OLSEN. It was either in the paper or from someone who had been to -visit him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who might it have been who was to visit him? - -Mr. OLSEN. Wally Weston. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who is Wally Weston? - -Mr. OLSEN. He was the master of ceremonies there in his club. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you last talk to Wally Weston? - -Mr. OLSEN. When I was in the hospital after the car accident. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did that car accident occur? - -Mr. OLSEN. December 7. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in the hospital? - -Mr. OLSEN. Two weeks, two and a half weeks. - -Mr. SPECTER. What injuries did you sustain in that automobile collision? - -Mr. OLSEN. I rebroke my leg. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the same place? - -Mr. OLSEN. The same place and some more breaks. And I cracked my chest -bone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating your sternum? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. And I broke some ribs. - -Mr. SPECTER. What hospital were you in? - -Mr. OLSEN. Methodist. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else did Wally Weston have to say on that occasion, -if anything, about Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. He couldn’t understand why he did it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Weston say anything further about Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me everything you can remember about -that conversation among you and Ruby and Kay and Johnny that night in -the garage? - -Mr. OLSEN. Between who? - -Mr. SPECTER. Ruby, Kay, Johnny, and you at the garage the Friday night -or early Saturday morning of the assassination. - -Mr. OLSEN. I can’t think of anything else. It was a conversation about -what had happened to the President and Officer Tippit, and everyone was -very upset about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your ability or recollection, -did that conversation end? - -Mr. OLSEN. Two or three in the morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after that? - -Mr. OLSEN. I took Kay home. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any—— - -Mr. OLSEN. Jack left. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody or talk to anybody else later that -night? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after taking Kay home? - -Mr. OLSEN. We talked a while. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do next? - -Mr. OLSEN. I think I went home. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken on Saturday? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, probably 11 in the morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have breakfast on Saturday? - -Mr. OLSEN. At her house. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to her house? And by “her” I take it -you mean Kay? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. Oh, 12 or 1 o’clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else on Saturday besides Kay? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who else did you see? - -Mr. OLSEN. I saw Ruby Saturday night. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was it that you saw Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. In front of his club. - -Mr. SPECTER. The Carousel Club? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time was that? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 10 or 11 at night. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you speak to him? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the circumstances under which you saw him? - -Mr. OLSEN. We were driving by and he was standing outside and we waved. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he see you and wave at you? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do from the time you got to Kay’s house -until the time that you saw Ruby standing in front of his club on that -Saturday night? - -Mr. OLSEN. Watched some television and listened to the radio a little -bit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to anybody else either in person or by -telephone from the time you got to Kay’s house until the time you saw -Ruby that Saturday night? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t guess we did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after you saw Ruby in front of his club -that Saturday night? - -Mr. OLSEN. What did we do then? - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you and Kay do then? - -Mr. OLSEN. We drove by where the President was shot, we drove by there -several times, and drove around town a little bit. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you finish driving around town? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I guess 1 or 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the morning? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew while you were driving -around town? - -Mr. OLSEN. We did, but I don’t remember who it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop and talk to them? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. I don’t remember who it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go when you finished driving around town? - -Mr. OLSEN. I took her home. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at her home? - -Mr. OLSEN. I would say 2 or 3 in the morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, we talked about what had happened more. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about an hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? - -Mr. OLSEN. Went to bed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you sleep that night? - -Mr. OLSEN. I could have slept on her couch. Either that or I went back -to my apartment. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you awaken Sunday morning? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 10 or 11. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have breakfast? - -Mr. OLSEN. At her house. - -Mr. SPECTER. And by “her” you mean Kay? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after breakfast? First, did you go to -Kay’s house right after you awakened? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then how long did you stay at Kay’s house? - -Mr. OLSEN. I think we were there when Ruby shot Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you learn that Ruby had shot Oswald? - -Mr. OLSEN. It was either the radio or the television. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you watching TV at the time that it happened? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe so. If not, we turned it on right after we had -heard it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present in Kay’s house except you and Kay? - -Mr. OLSEN. Her children. - -Mr. SPECTER. What are the names of her children? - -Mr. OLSEN. Susan and Sheri. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old is Susan? - -Mr. OLSEN. Nine. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old is Sheri? - -Mr. OLSEN. Seven. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present besides you and Kay and Susan and -Sheri? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; they could have been outside playing. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Kay’s house that day? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, several hours, I guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else before you left Kay’s house that -day, on that Sunday? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I recall. I could have seen somebody who lives -there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Such as who? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, the landlord. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who is he? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember his name. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody by telephone that day? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall if I called the police department or not, -whether they wanted me to come down and work. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you on duty that day? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How was it that you were off for 3 days in a row? - -Mr. OLSEN. I had a holiday. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by “a holiday”? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, like Christmas or Thanksgiving, or something like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean you had a compensatory day coming for having -worked a holiday? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any announcement that day that Oswald was -about to be moved? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to hear that? - -Mr. OLSEN. On television, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. And specifically, what was that announcement? - -Mr. OLSEN. That he was being moved from the city jail to the county -jail. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody about that? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell Ruby about that? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby that Sunday? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Ruby at any time after that -conversation you had with him in the garage on late Friday night or -early Saturday morning? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave Kay’s house on Sunday, November -24, to the best of your ability to recollect? - -Mr. OLSEN. I would say 9 or 10 o’clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the evening? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go then? - -Mr. OLSEN. We drove by city hall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop? - -Mr. OLSEN. Sir? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop at city hall? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go after dropping by city hall? - -Mr. OLSEN. We drove by where the President was assassinated. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Kay with you at that time? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe she was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go next? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe we went to her house. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I don’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you contact anybody after you learned Oswald was shot -by Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. Sir? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you contact anybody after you learned that Oswald was -shot by Ruby? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe I called the police department and asked them if -they wanted me to work. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that call, did you contact anybody? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you called the police department what did they -tell you? - -Mr. OLSEN. They didn’t need me to work. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who you talked to on that occasion? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has Kay worked for Ruby at any time after the -assassination? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did she work for Ruby last preceding the -assassination? - -Mr. OLSEN. Thursday, I would say. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your employment with the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. OLSEN. The latter part of December. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for leaving the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. OLSEN. I wanted to come to California. - -Mr. SPECTER. Nobody at the Dallas Police Department asked you to leave? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you to leave the Police Department? - -Mr. OLSEN. Chief Curry. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for that? - -Mr. OLSEN. I was out of sick time; in other words, you are allotted so -much sick time a year, and he didn’t want to extend me any more. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only reason why he asked you to terminate -your employment with the police department? - -Mr. OLSEN. That was one of the reasons. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason? - -(Long pause.) - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember exactly what was said. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why you went to California? - -Mr. OLSEN. We heard the climate was nice out here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Bertha Cheek? Does that name ring a bell -with you? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who is she? - -Mr. OLSEN. I have heard the name. Can you help me a little bit with it? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, do you recollect anything about her at this moment? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I have heard the name, though. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell Bertha Cheek that Ruby was looking for a -partner? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, who is Bertha Cheek? - -Mr. SPECTER. You just don’t recollect? - -Mr. OLSEN. Did I tell Bertha Cheek that Ruby was looking for a partner? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever room at Bertha Cheek’s apartment building? - -Mr. OLSEN. Well, where is that? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, do you know of any Bertha Cheek who has an apartment -building in Dallas? - -Mr. OLSEN. Does she have the one on Gaston? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever room at an apartment building on Gaston? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I know of, no. - -Mr. SPECTER. From the time President Kennedy was assassinated through -the rest of that Friday and Saturday and Sunday did you see or talk to -Little Lynn? - -Mr. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin, during that same time? - -Mr. OLSEN. Who? - -Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin. I notice a quizzical look on your face. Do -you know who Bruce Carlin is? - -Mr. OLSEN. No; can you help me? - -Mr. SPECTER. No; I am not able to do that. Did you see or talk to Tammi -True? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tammi True? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Ralph Paul from November 22d -through to November 24th? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t believe so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tom Howard? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Tom Howard from the time of the -assassination until the following Sunday? - -Mr. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Breck Wall during that same period -of time? - -Mr. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to George Senator from November 22d -through the 24th? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You know who George Senator is? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Mickey Ryan? - -(Witness shaking head.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr.—— - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Olsen is shaking his head “No,” and now he has said “No.” -Do you know Blackie Harrison? - -Mr. OLSEN. I believe, if it’s the one I’m thinking of. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you thinking of one who is an officer on the Police -Department? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Blackie Harrison from the time of -the assassination to the Sunday after that? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Lieutenant Butler? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Lieutenant Butler from the -assassination until the 24th of November? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t believe so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Detective L. D. Miller from the -assassination until November 24th? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tom O’Grady? - -Mr. OLSEN. I might know him by sight, but I don’t know him from the -name. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Ralph Paul ever tell you that Ruby said he was going -to shoot Oswald? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear of Oswald before the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Oswald before the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at all whether Ruby knew Oswald prior to the -assassination? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eugene Smith? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember. I might know him if I would see him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby knew anyone by the name of Eugene -Smith? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, I don’t. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby was a member of any subversive -organization; that is, an organization which advocates the forceful -overthrow of the U.S. Government? - -Mr. OLSEN. To my knowledge, he was never a member of anything like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether any of his friends or family were -members of such an organization? - -Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby associated with any of the -criminal element. - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever associate with any of the criminal element? - -Mr. OLSEN. I think he did in Chicago. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, is the basis for your saying that? - -Mr. OLSEN. I had heard that he had been with a gang in Chicago. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that? - -Mr. OLSEN. Oh, it could have been Ruby himself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall for sure whether or not it was Ruby who told -you that? - -Mr. OLSEN. I recall that he did—he had said something about being with -a—or, how rough Chicago used to be. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, did he say anything beyond how rough it was, to the -effect that he was with a criminal gang or anything of that sort? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s trip to Cuba? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you know about that? - -Mr. OLSEN. He said he was going to Cuba to get acts. - -Mr. SPECTER. To get what? - -Mr. OLSEN. Acts. - -Mr. SPECTER. A-c-t-s? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. For his nightclub? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did he go to Cuba, if you remember? - -Mr. OLSEN. I remember when he went, but I don’t remember the date. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other purpose that you know about in Ruby’s -going to Cuba? - -Mr. OLSEN. No. He seemed to be quiet about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s attitude toward the John -Birch Society? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about his attitude toward the -Minutemen? - -Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear Ruby say anything about the sign on -impeaching Chief Justice Earl Warren? - -Mr. OLSEN. Would you repeat that? - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear Ruby say anything about a sign or -advertisement which said “Impeach Chief Justice Earl Warren of the U.S. -Supreme Court”? - -Mr. OLSEN. He could have said something about it, but I don’t remember. -I think that he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Off the record for just a minute. - -(There was a discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful to the President’s Commission in any way, Mr. Olsen? - -Mr. OLSEN. I wish I did. If I did, I would tell you. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you don’t? - -Mr. OLSEN. Not that I can think of. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, under the procedure of the Commission, Mr. -Olsen, we can make this deposition transcript available to you to read -and to sign, if you want to, or you can forego your right to do that on -what is called a waiver. - -Would you like to read and sign the deposition; that is, this record? - -Mr. OLSEN. Should I? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, it’s up to you. If you want to, you can, it’s up -to you. There is some doubt in your mind, so I think we will make it -available to you to read and to sign. - -Mr. OLSEN. OK. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Olsen, and that -concludes the deposition. - -(There was a discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let’s go back on the record just a minute. - -Mr. Olsen, did we have a brief conversation before I administered the -oath to you and the court reporter started to take down my questions -and your answers? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did I cover in a general way the questions which I -have since asked you on the record? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have -given on the record? - -Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF KAY HELEN OLSEN - -The testimony of Kay Helen Olsen was taken at 4:30 p.m., on August -6, 1964, at U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street, Los -Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the -President’s Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Harry Olsen is present in -response to a letter request for her to appear and have her deposition -taken. - -Mrs. Olsen, did you receive such a letter from the President’s -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you get that letter? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Monday morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Today is Thursday, so that would have been 3 days ago? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, I think it was Monday morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Is it satisfactory with you to proceed to have -your deposition taken at the present time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the letter contain the Executive order creating the -Commission and the rules and regulations for the taking of depositions? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you note that you could have an attorney present -if you wanted one at this time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to proceed without an attorney being -present on your behalf? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. The Commission has asked you to appear to give a -deposition with respect to your knowledge of Jack Ruby and the events -of November 22 through November 24. - -With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you rise and raise -your right hand, please. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in -this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be -the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Kay Helen Olsen. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the date of your birth, Mrs. Olsen? - -Mrs. OLSEN. The 13th of April 1936. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born? - -Mrs. OLSEN. London, England. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived in the United States? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Eight years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you married to Mr. Harry Olsen? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married to Mr. Olsen? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Seven months. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you married prior to your marriage to Mr. Olsen? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the name of the gentlemen to whom you were -previously married? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Kennerd Coleman. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when were you divorced from Mr. Coleman? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t remember the month. It was 1959. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you married on any occasion prior to your marriage to -Mr. Coleman? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I went to an all girls school, I won a scholarship to -an all girls school, and, well—— - -Mr. SPECTER. How old were you when you finished your formal education? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I guess I was about 15½. We start earlier over there, you -know. We go to school earlier. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your places of residence from -the time you came to the United States? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Victoria, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you live in Victoria, Tex.? - -Mrs. OLSEN. June 1956. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from Victoria, Tex.? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, that’s when we first separated. I came out here to -California, Riverside, Calif., and he went to Illinois. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Coleman went to Illinois and you came to Riverside, -Calif., in 1956? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; 1958. - -Mr. SPECTER. 1958? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where have you lived since 1958? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I had to go back to Illinois. He was sick and I had to -go back, and then we moved to Salina, Kans. - -Mr. SPECTER. You reunited? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you live in Salina, Kans.? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, that was the latter part of 1958. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you move from Salina, Kans.? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Wichita. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Wichita? - -Mrs. OLSEN. About 6 months. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you next live after your residency in -Wichita, Kans.? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you move to Dallas? - -Mrs. OLSEN. June 1961. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you reside in Dallas? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, let me see. We came out here in January of 1964. Two -and a half years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you resided here in Los Angeles since January of this -year? - -Mrs. OLSEN. February 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you first meet Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it was around July 1961. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your meeting him? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I just went up to his club to see some girlfriends. - -Mr. SPECTER. What club is that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Carousel Club. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how did you happen to meet him? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he asked me to go to work for him. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you subsequently employed by Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it took me about a month to think it over, because -everybody thought he wouldn’t last, you know, they thought his business -wouldn’t last, competitionwise, you know, and I went to work for him, I -guess it was the latter part of July. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of what year? - -Mrs. OLSEN. 1961. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you work for him altogether? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Two years and four months; on and off. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you get along with Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Very good. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any disagreements with him? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; about, you know, trying to get a day off. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause, did you say, of the disagreement? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Trying to get a day off. That was about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any other difficulties with Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; not really. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever romantic interest between you and Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you meet Mr. Olsen, your husband? - -Mrs. OLSEN. When I was working up there. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the Carousel Club? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did Mr. Ruby and Mr. Olsen get along? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, he liked Harry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever argue or fight? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, over me once in a while, trying to get some time off. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever any other disagreement between Mr. Ruby and -Mr. Olsen? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he didn’t think that Harry should come up there so -much, me working there. - -Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did Harry come to the club? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, maybe on Saturday night for an hour or something, you -know about once a week. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever do any favors for Mr. Olsen? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I know of. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live in September of 1963? - -Mrs. OLSEN. On Ewing. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your specific address? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think it was 325 North Ewing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Olsen live at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. In September? - -Mr. SPECTER. September of 1963. - -Mrs. OLSEN. 1963? I think he was at Theatre Lane. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Ruby live in September of 1963? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think he lived on Ewing, too. I don’t know the address; -it was out further. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your relationship with Mr. Olsen in the fall or -September of 1963? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, steady. - -Mr. SPECTER. You were going together steadily? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have plans to marry at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. But we couldn’t because of me working, and, you know, -the police department, the wives couldn’t work in a place like that, -you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you couldn’t marry Mr. -Olsen at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was his divorce final at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess. I don’t know when he got it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he separated from his wife in the fall of 1963? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think he was divorced. This is just last September? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; he was divorced then. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever visit Mr. Olsen at his apartment? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever visit you at your apartment? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, he has been over for breakfast with a group, a group of -people. - -Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions was he at your apartment; that is, -on how many occasions was Mr. Ruby at your apartment? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I would say twice. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were others always present on those occasions? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. It’s hard to remember all this, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far was your apartment from Mr. Ruby’s in the fall of -1963? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I would say a mile. - -Mr. SPECTER. It wasn’t a block away? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. I’m not very good at distances, but it was way at the -end. He lived way out on Ewing. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many blocks was it? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I don’t know. He lived in two places, he lived on -Marsalis once. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did he live on Marsalis? How do you spell that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. M-a-r-s-a-l-i-s. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did he live at the Marsalis residence? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, well, I know he was there on July the 4th the year -before, because we always spent July 4th over there, all the employees. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was he living in the fall of 1963, say September, -October, November? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Ewing. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how far was his Ewing Street residence from your -residence at 325 Ewing? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, do you know the block number? Could you give me a -block number? - -Mr. SPECTER. No; I am not able to do that. Do you recollect his block -number? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t know it. I just know the big apartment building. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you don’t know how many blocks it was? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t; no. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you work at Mr. Ruby’s Carousel Club on a daily basis; -that is, did you work every day? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; 7 days a week. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall Friday, November 22, 1963, the day President -Kennedy was assassinated? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When had you seen Mr. Ruby before that Friday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Thursday night at work. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall whether you had any conversation with -Mr. Ruby on Thursday, November 21? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; I can’t remember. I didn’t used to talk to him too -much, I stayed out of his way. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as precisely as you can recollect what you did on -Friday, November 22. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Harry was guarding an estate on 8th Street just a ways from -where I lived, and I fixed a lunch for him and stopped off at the 7-11 -store to get him some milk, and that’s when I heard that there had been -some trouble downtown; a colored lady told me that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time was that that you stopped at the 7-11 store? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about 12:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the afternoon? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. I can’t remember the morning. I had the children and I -can’t remember. We probably had been in the pool or something. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken that Friday morning, if you -recall? - -Mrs. OLSEN. It was probably late, because I worked that night. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you cared for your children in the morning? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many children have you? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Two girls. - -Mr. SPECTER. And their names and ages? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Susan is 9½ and Sheri is 7. - -Mr. SPECTER. Both of these children were born during your first -marriage? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And after picking up the milk at the 7-11 store, what did -you do next? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I went up to give Harry his lunch, and he had heard it; -some woman had called. He was sitting there and some woman had called -and she wanted to speak to the lady that was supposed to be there. -Harry answered the phone and she told him, I think, about the President -getting shot, because he already knew when I got there, so we sat in -the car and listened to the car radio, and that’s how we knew about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were you there at the house Harry was guarding? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about an hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I called from there down to the club and this is when Harry -said, “You are going to quit; this is it,” you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did Harry say that to you? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I was on the verge of it anyway, we were going to -come out here last August and we kept putting it off and putting it -off, and—wait a minute, maybe I’m wrong. I called in and I said, “Are -we open tonight?” - -Mr. SPECTER. Who did you talk to? - -Mrs. OLSEN. The bartender. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is his name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Andrew. - -Mr. SPECTER. Andrew what? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the Carousel Club? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did the bartender say? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I didn’t get to talk to Jack Ruby. Apparently he was crying -and everything. - -Mr. SPECTER. How do you know that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Andy told me. And I said, “What is Jack doing?” And he -said, “Oh, he is all upset and he is crying.” And he said, “We are -closed tonight.” And after all this happened, oh, I had no desire to -get back in that business or anything, I was just sick over it anyway, -so that’s when I said, “Well, I’m not going back.” I didn’t tell Jack -this or anything, you know, because, you see, we are union and we have -to give notice. - -Mr. SPECTER. You told Mr. Olsen that day that you did not intend to go -back to work for Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, business, the whole business, I was through. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you made a telephone call from the house that Mr. -Olsen was guarding? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I went home. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you make that telephone call? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess it was around 1:15. The President was killed at -1 o’clock, wasn’t he? - -Mr. SPECTER. 12:30. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I must have got there a little before that, then, -because I didn’t hear it until I sat in the car with Harry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, didn’t some lady tell you about it at the 7-11 store? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, she said the President had been shot; that’s what she -said. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then what is your best recollection about when you left -that house? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about 1:30. So I must have called about 1:15. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then where did you go next? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I was going to take the girls to the show. - -Mr. SPECTER. What show? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I didn’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Some movie? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; a movie. And, well, I didn’t; I wasn’t in the mood to -sit in a movie, you know, and I really can’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that afternoon? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I went and sat with my landlady. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is her name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. She was the manager of the apartment; Mrs. Hall. We sat -there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Mrs. Hall’s first name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Ewing; 325 North Ewing. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you left the house that Mr. Olsen was guarding, did -you go right back to your own residence? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that afternoon besides Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. Just, I guess, neighbors. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which neighbors? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. I can’t remember the names. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you telephone anybody? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do later in the afternoon, if anything? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I fixed supper for Harry and the girls. I think he got off -about 4 that day. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, he was guarding the house that day. Did he finish -guarding the house at 4? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think the man relieved him—it was 6. The other policeman -relieved him at 6. - -Mr. SPECTER. What policeman was that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then Mr. Olsen came over to your residence? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, as far as I can remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long did he stay there? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we watched TV and, oh, we sat in front of that TV set -for a long time, and we were all nervous and upset, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there besides you and Mr. Olsen and your -two children? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you call anybody that evening by telephone? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody call you that evening? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. This is as far as I can recollect. I mean I can’t be -positive. I just can’t remember that day too well. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long did Mr. Olsen stay there that evening? - -Mrs. OLSEN. We went out. We, you know, got nervous sitting there. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you go out? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it was late; it was about 11. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go? - -Mrs. OLSEN. We went downtown to a private club. We wanted a drink; we -were kind of shook up. - -Mr. SPECTER. What club did you go to? - -Mrs. OLSEN. It was the Sip and Nip on Commerce Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Sip and Nip? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody there that you knew? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, we knew the bartender and the waitress. Because we -didn’t get out, you know, too often with me working all the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the bartender’s name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think his name was Lee. I’m pretty sure it was Lee. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the waitress’ name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; not there. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay there at the club? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, they close at 12. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew someplace else? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we went—do you want to know later what happened? - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. - -Mrs. OLSEN. We went to the parking lot; we used to go over there and -talk to Johnny. - -Mr. SPECTER. Johnny who? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where is the parking lot located? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Right behind the Carousel Club; across the street on—what -street would that be? - -Mr. SPECTER. Akard? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Akard? - -Mr. SPECTER. Jackson and Akard? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Jackson. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the intersection of Jackson and Akard? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. Jackson and the next street down. What was that? Field; -Jackson and Field. And we sat in there and we talked. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you talk to Johnny? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, quite a while. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no. And we were sitting there; it was -late, and that’s when Jack Ruby drove by. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did he drive by? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I can’t be positive on these times. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I guess around 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he stop? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. We waved, and he stopped. He stopped at a red light -and pulled in and he came in and sat in the car and talked to us for -quite a while. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess an hour or so at least. - -Mr. SPECTER. As nearly as you can recollect, tell me exactly what he -said and what you said to him? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, everyone was shocked, you know, and we talked about -Mrs. Kennedy and the children and how terrible it was, and he told us -he had been down to the police station to take the boys some sandwiches -down there, and he was real upset, kind of wild-eyed, had his real -stary look, and he was upset that—well, he was mad that these other -clubowners hadn’t closed down. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which clubowners? - -Mrs. OLSEN. The Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club. I hate to remember -all this stuff, I really do. You know, I have such a different life now -and I hate to rehash it all. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else did Mr. Ruby say at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think he told us he had seen Oswald transferred, if I -remember right, and we asked him what he looked like and he said he -looked like a little rat, real sneaky looking. - -Mr. SPECTER. He saw him transferred from where to where? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. He saw him down there. I think as they were -moving him from one room to another. - -Mr. SPECTER. He saw down where? - -Mrs. OLSEN. At the police station. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything more about Oswald? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess he cussed him out a bit. He was just real upset. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about what he intended to do? - -Mrs. OLSEN. About his club? - -Mr. SPECTER. About anything. - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say he intended to shoot Oswald? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Ruby knew Oswald? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t think he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Oswald in the club? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen Oswald at all? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else did Ruby say at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. That’s about all I can remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation about Officer J. D. Tippit? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. Was Tippit shot that day? Yes; he was, wasn’t he? - -Mr. SPECTER. Tippit was shot on Friday afternoon; that day. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. I can’t remember, because I didn’t know Officer Tippit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Mr. Ruby knew Officer J. D. -Tippit? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I read in the papers that he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from what you read in the papers, do you have any -personal knowledge—— - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to whether Mr. Ruby knew Officer Tippit? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen know Officer Tippit? - -Mrs. OLSEN. He said he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he know him well? - -Mrs. OLSEN. He said he had never been over to his house or anything, he -just seen him in the locker room, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. During the course of that conversation what did you say, -that is, when Mr. Ruby came by and you were parked at the parking lot -talking to Johnny? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Just how terrible everything was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall anything else that you said specifically? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; I can’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you say, “In England they would have hung Oswald by -his toes and dragged him through the street?” - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any reference at all to what would happen to -Oswald if he were in England? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can recollect about that -conversation? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you talked to Ruby earlier on that Friday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long had you been at that parking lot before Ruby -arrived? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I guess about an hour, as close as I can remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. During the course of that conversation, did Ruby say -anything about the Weissman ad? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what you mean. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know of any advertisement in the newspaper -containing derogatory remarks or unfavorable comments about President -Kennedy? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby say anything during that conversation about -the radicals in Dallas? - -Mrs. OLSEN. The what? - -Mr. SPECTER. The radicals in Dallas. - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what that means. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the John Birch Society? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the Communists in Dallas? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the radical right? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby say anything about the effect on Jews? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything to Mr. Ruby about his closing his -club? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, just in conversation I asked him how long he thought he -could close. See, I didn’t give him notice or anything, I had to get -hold of the union man first, because the union, you know, you have to -give a 2-week notice, otherwise you have to pay them 2 weeks’ salary. -But I got out of that, I talked to the union man and he said—well, I -think they call it an act of God when something like this happens, and -you just don’t want any part of working like that any more. I think -that made all of us think a little bit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you praise Ruby for closing up the club after the -assassination? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, I thought it was the right thing to do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him so? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen say anything about that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I can’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen shake his hand for closing up the club? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, they used to shake hands all the time. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you upset at that time about the assassination? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Very. - -Mr SPECTER. Was Mr. Olsen upset? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; very much. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about Mr. Ruby, how was he? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Real upset. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about him that led you to the -conclusion that he was upset? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he looked awful tired and he would sit back and stare -off into space, and he never cried or anything, but, you know, he would -just keep saying over and over how terrible it was, what a wonderful -man the President was and how sorry he felt for Mrs. Kennedy and the -children. - -Mr. SPECTER. After Mr. Ruby left what did you and Mr. Olsen do next? - -Mrs. OLSEN. We came home to my house. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at your house? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, let me see. It was kind of late, I guess around 3. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I guess I went to bed. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Olsen do? - -Mrs. OLSEN. He left. He was living on Theatre—yes, he left. - -Mr. SPECTER. He was living where? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Theatre Lane. He went to Theatre Lane. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken the next morning, which would -have been Saturday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Now, can I ask you, is this the day Oswald was shot? - -Mr. SPECTER. Oswald was shot on Sunday. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, Saturday? Oh, I would say around 11. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you—— - -Mrs. OLSEN. I had to go pick up my daughters, see, from the babysitter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that you knew on that Saturday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you telephone anybody? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone telephone you? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I have girl friends, you know, and we probably called -each other. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you recall any specific girl friend who either called -you or whom you called? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mr. Olsen later that day? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know if he was working or not. I can’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall when you did see him next? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. Oh, we went out that evening. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. I can’t remember. I’m not being very helpful, -am I? But it was what, 9 months ago. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall seeing anybody else you knew on that evening -besides Mr. Olsen? - -Mrs. OLSEN. We saw Jack Ruby standing outside of his club. We parked. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time was that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess around 9. And he was standing outside and he -covered up all these pictures or something. - -Mr. SPECTER. He had covered up the pictures? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think he had covered up pictures. - -Mr. SPECTER. What pictures did he cover up? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Of the girls, you know, in the show. I think he covered -them up or something, or took them out or something. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did he do that, do you know? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Mr. Ruby on that occasion? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. We just pulled in the parking lot and said “Hi, how are -you,” and he said “OK.” It was just hello and goodbye, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Mr. Ruby since that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? - -Mrs. OLSEN. That evening? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mrs. OLSEN. We went out, but I can’t remember where. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember whether you saw anybody that night, or -whether you talked to anybody you knew? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t know. I don’t even know where we went. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive home that night? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Probably late. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls after you arrived home? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Olsen do after he brought you home? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Went home, I guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what time you awakened on the next day, -which would have been Sunday, the day Oswald was shot? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; my daughter woke me. Can you tell me what time did -this happen, the shooting, and I can tell you what time I woke up, -because my daughter woke me up and told me about it, because she knew -Jack, see. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, what is your best recollection as to what time your -daughter awakened you? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I expect 11:30, I guess. Because I get up in the morning -and fix their breakfast and everything and then I go back to bed. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did she say to you? - -Mrs. OLSEN. She said, “Jack shot Oswald,” and I said, “Oh, no; don’t -be silly,” you know, but I got out of bed and turned on the TV and it -was just—it was just coming on, I think then, and I recognized him by -the back of his head, you know, from his back, and then, of course, my -neighbors started knocking because they knew where I worked and they -said, “Have you heard,” you know, and, oh, I couldn’t believe it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What neighbor did that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I think my landlady. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Mrs. Hall; yes, probably. - -Mr. SPECTER. Anybody else? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think Nancy, one of the girls across the way, came in and -had some coffee. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Nancy’s last name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Ernest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live? - -Mrs. OLSEN. She lives in one of the apartments on Ewing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. Because I think that was the night we were going up -to—I had never met Harry’s parents. This was another reason I quit, you -know, and I wouldn’t have to lie to them or anything, you know. And I -was hunting up a babysitter, that’s right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else on that Sunday by telephone -or in person? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do that Sunday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. We went to Wichita Falls—Henrietta, Henrietta. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far is Henrietta? - -Mrs. OLSEN. About 160 miles, I think. To Harry’s parents. - -Mr. SPECTER. On Sunday, November 24? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think that was the night. I’m sure that was the Sunday. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave Dallas? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, about 2 in the afternoon, I guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you arrive at Henrietta, Tex.? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I got that wrong. It was dark when we got there. I guess we -left later, about 4. I think we got there about 6:30. It was dark or -something, I don’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Henrietta? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, about 3 hours. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you leave? - -Mrs. OLSEN. About 10, I guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you drive back to Dallas that night? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see at Henrietta? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Harry’s parents. And then we visited another friend of the -family. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the name of that friend? - -Mrs. OLSEN. His name was Harry. I don’t know his last name. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you visit or meet anyone else at Henrietta? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. While you were at Henrietta did you talk to anyone over -the telephone? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do when you arrived back in Dallas late that -Sunday night? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Went to bed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you listening to the radio or television before -Oswald was shot that Sunday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; I was sleeping. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any announcements on that day that Oswald was -about to be moved? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Ruby on that Sunday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby on that Sunday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. After you heard that Oswald was shot did you contact -anybody? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think I called Jean, my girl friend in Grand Prairie. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Jean’s last name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Jean Simms. - -Mr. SPECTER. In Grand Prairie, Tex.? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of contacting her? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, about Jack, you know, what a shock it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you call her? - -Mrs. OLSEN. She was my closest friend. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any specific purpose in calling her? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; it was—you know, when somebody you work for does -something like this you just want to talk to someone, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you call anybody else? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else call you? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I can remember. There might have been a girl -friend or something. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever go back to the Carousel Club after that -Sunday? - -Mrs. OLSEN. We went up New Year’s Eve for a few minutes just to see -some of the girls that worked up there, and it was a real terrible -atmosphere. We didn’t stay long. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of course, Mr. Ruby wasn’t there at that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever go back to work at the Carousel Club after -Oswald was shot? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go back to the Carousel Club to get your clothes? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you do that? - -Mrs. OLSEN. When? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mrs. OLSEN. When I got the clearance from the union, he said it was all -right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you deal with to get the clearance from the union? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Tom Palmer. - -Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell his last name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. P-a-l-m-e-r. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you get the clearance from Mr. Palmer? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I didn’t work for a couple of weeks there, so it was -over that period, you know, a couple of weeks. - -Mr. SPECTER. When is your best recollection, then, as to when you went -back to the club to get your clothes? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess a week later. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see? - -Mrs. OLSEN. The bartender let me in. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was his name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Andrew. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if anything? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he didn’t have too much to say to me. I think they -thought I was a traitor for not sticking with them, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you crying at the time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I think I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why were you crying? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I felt sorry for Jack at that time, if I remember rightly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you say—— - -Mrs. OLSEN. Just a minute, I’m just trying to think. I think Tom -Howard, Jack Ruby’s attorney, was up there at that time, and he got me -in tears, I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did he get you in tears, so to speak? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I was upset anyway, and nervous, and, well, he just -talked about Jack said hello to all of us and he didn’t feel bad about -me quitting, anything I wanted to do was all right, not to worry about -it, you know, worry about quitting. You see, most of the girls stayed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there at the time you went back to get -your clothes? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you recollect seeing attorney Tom Howard and bartender -Andy? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think that was the same day. I’m not sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. But were you back there on any other day? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. The way I am confused, one evening we were up there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that New Year’s Eve? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Before I got my clothes. No; it was before that. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say you were up there, whom do you mean? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Alice and I, a girl friend. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Alice’s last name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think she quit, too, at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Alice’s last name? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh—— - -Mr. SPECTER. Not Alice Nichol? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Alexander. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it Alice Nichol? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; Alice Alexander, I think it was. She was a waitress. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Grand Prairie. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when was it that you and she were there together? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember. It was some evening. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see when you were there? - -Mrs. OLSEN. It seems like that was the night the attorney was up -there. I went up to get my paycheck; that’s right; I went up to get my -paycheck. That’s the night I was up there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby pay you by check or by cash? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Check, and then we would sign the check and he would give -us the cash, you know, like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was there on that occasion? - -Mrs. OLSEN. What occasion? - -Mr. SPECTER. When you went to get your paycheck. - -Mrs. OLSEN. That was when Alice came with me. I’m pretty sure that this -was the night that Tom Howard was up there, and that was the night that -I was crying, I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anybody there besides you and Alice and Tom -Howard? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; I think Andrew was even out of the office quite a bit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave Dallas soon after -November 24th, the Sunday when Oswald was shot? - -Mrs. OLSEN. How soon? What do you mean? - -Mr. SPECTER. Within a few days? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to work in Oklahoma City? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; that was about—I think it was about 2 weeks after. I -wanted to make some money for Christmas. - -Mr. SPECTER. For whom did you work in Oklahoma City? - -Mrs. OLSEN. It was the Kings Club. I can’t remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an arrangement to go up there to work? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; an agent got me a booking. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you make that arrangement to go there to work? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, within that 2 weeks afterward. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Tammi True in Oklahoma City? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I stayed with her; we shared a room. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you tell her? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, we discussed a lot of things about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about with respect to Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. What a crazy thing he did. And that I would never go back -to work there. That was about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay with Tammi True? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Three weeks. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did she live? - -Mrs. OLSEN. We had a motel. It was the club owner’s motel where he -rented to the entertainers. I can’t remember the name of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you left Dallas to go to -Oklahoma City? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No; just to make some money for Christmas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen have an accident at about that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; while I was up there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What happened to him exactly? - -Mrs. OLSEN. He totaled his car; hit a telephone pole. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say “totaled,” you mean a total wreck? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What injuries, if any, did he sustain? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think he broke two bones in his leg and he separated his -shoulder and he had multiple chest injuries, black eye. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he hospitalized? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Methodist Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you later go to California? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Why did we come out here? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we had no desire to stay in Dallas. He used up all -his sick time on the police department, and, well, we wanted to come -out here a year—well, last August we were going to come out here and -we didn’t have enough money, and then he got his settlement from the -car and I saved a little money and so we just came out here. We always -wanted to come out to California. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the Friday of the assassination and the -following Saturday and the following Sunday when Oswald was shot, -during that time did you see or talk to Little Lynn? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Tammi True? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Bruce Carlin? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Who? - -Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin. - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know who that is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Bruce Carlin? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Tom O’Grady? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him. - -Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Blackie Harrison? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him either. - -Mr. SPECTER. During that same time did you see or talk to Ralph Paul? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I called him on the—oh, now, wait. You are saying from -the Friday to the Sunday? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Ralph Paul? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I guess it was Monday when they reopened the club. I think -that was the day they reopened it, I’m not sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Ralph Paul in person or did you talk to him on -the telephone? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I talked to him on the telephone and I told him I wasn’t -coming back to work, and he said, “Well, it’s up to you.” He was very -cool. - -Mr. SPECTER. What connection, if any, did he have with the Carousel -Club? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I think he is the owner. - -Mr. SPECTER. The coowner with Ruby? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I thought Jack Ruby was just like managing it, you know, a -front; that Ralph had all the money in the place. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else was in that conversation between you and Ralph -Paul, if anything? - -Mrs. OLSEN. That was it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Ralph Paul tell you that Ruby told him Saturday night -he was going to shoot Oswald? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I’m sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Paul tell you anything about what Ruby told him? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. During the time from that Friday, November 22, until the -following Sunday on November 24, did you see or talk to George Senator? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Eva Grant? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or Breck Wall? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or Mickey Ryan? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him—oh, yes; I do; but I didn’t see him. - -Mr. SPECTER. During that same time did you see or talk to Tom Howard? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. Now, this is the Friday to the Sunday, right? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Lieutenant Butler, did you see or talk to Lieutenant -Butler during that time? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Detective L. D. Miller? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other telephone calls during that time -from November 22 to November 24? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Other than girl friends? - -Mr. SPECTER. Other than the ones you have already told me about. - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive any telephone calls from the day of the -assassination until the following Sunday, other than those you have -already told me about? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see or hear of Oswald before November 22? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Bertha Cheek? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Is this who they call Aunt Bertha, the one that works at -the Colony Club? - -Mr. SPECTER. I am not able to say. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Well, that’s the only Bertha I know. I have worked with her. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever know of any Bertha Cheek who operated an -apartment house? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eugene Smith? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby was ever a member of any -subversive organization which advocated the forceful overthrow of the -U.S. Government? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether any of his family of friends was ever -a member of such an organization? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know that either. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s trip to Cuba? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s attitude towards the -John Birch Society? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s attitude towards the -Minutemen? - -Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what that means. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be -helpful in any way to the President’s Commission? - -Mrs. OLSEN. No. I wish I could help you, but that’s about all I can -remember, just as an employee and that’s about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before the oath was administered to you, that is, before -I swore you in, did you and I have a very brief conversation about the -subject matter that I would ask you about during this deposition? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you answer the questions for me at that time in -the same way that you have on the record here this afternoon? - -Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Olsen, we permit the witnesses to read the -depositions and to sign them if they wish to do so, and during the -course of the deposition with Mr. Olsen, it was concluded that he would -read and sign his deposition, so this transcript, which is the typing -up of the questions and answers, will be made available to you to read -and sign. - -Mrs. OLSEN. Okay. - -Mr. SPECTER. And that concludes the deposition and we thank you very -much for coming here today. - -Mrs. OLSEN. All right. - - - - -Transcriber’s Notes - - -Punctuation was made consistent when a predominant preference was found -in this book; otherwise it were not changed. Omitted question marks not -remedied. - -Misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Simple typographical errors were corrected; occasional unbalanced -quotation marks corrected when proper placement was clear. - -Ambiguous hyphens at the ends of lines were retained; occurrences of -inconsistent hyphenation have not been changed. - -Text uses both “twistboards” and “twist boards”. - -Page 80: “look at photograph L” may have been printed as “look at -photograph I.” - -Page 163: “50 shares” was printed that way; elsewhere, the quantity is -500. - -Page 190: “make me go in in early” was printed that way. - -Page 280: One of the questions asked by Mr. Griffin was identified as -being asked by Mr. Wilson. Corrected here. - -Page 301: “having one to the Southland Hotel” likely is a misprint for -“gone”. - -Page 305: “first started to work for him” was misprinted as “stated”. -Corrected here. - -Page 306: “put a pouch on him” was printed that way. - -Page 318: Transcriber added missing closing quotation mark after “talk -to down there?” - -Page 322: There is an extra closing quotation mark in the text at the -top of the page, after “Jack told him”, or a missing opening quotation -mark. - -Page 432: Transcriber added a closing quotation mark after “closed -Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.” - -Page 443: “acquaintenance” was printed that way. - -Page 485: Transcriber added a closing quotation mark after “You think -you will be all right”. - -Page 571: “it would not completely accurate” was printed that way, but -is missing the word “be”. - -Page 614: “or any other other Federal agency” was printed that way. - -Page 620: “that might have have happened” was printed that way. - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings -Vol. XIV (of 15), by Warren Commission - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION (14 OF 26) *** - -***** This file should be named 56190-0.txt or 56190-0.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/5/6/1/9/56190/ - -Produced by Charlie Howard and the Online Distributed -Proofreading Team at http://www.pgdp.net - -Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions will -be renamed. - -Creating the works from print editions not protected by U.S. copyright -law means that no one owns a United States copyright in these works, -so the Foundation (and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United -States without permission and without paying copyright -royalties. Special rules, set forth in the General Terms of Use part -of this license, apply to copying and distributing Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic works to protect the PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm -concept and trademark. Project Gutenberg is a registered trademark, -and may not be used if you charge for the eBooks, unless you receive -specific permission. If you do not charge anything for copies of this -eBook, complying with the rules is very easy. You may use this eBook -for nearly any purpose such as creation of derivative works, reports, -performances and research. They may be modified and printed and given -away--you may do practically ANYTHING in the United States with eBooks -not protected by U.S. copyright law. Redistribution is subject to the -trademark license, especially commercial redistribution. - -START: FULL LICENSE - -THE FULL PROJECT GUTENBERG LICENSE -PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU DISTRIBUTE OR USE THIS WORK - -To protect the Project Gutenberg-tm mission of promoting the free -distribution of electronic works, by using or distributing this work -(or any other work associated in any way with the phrase "Project -Gutenberg"), you agree to comply with all the terms of the Full -Project Gutenberg-tm License available with this file or online at -www.gutenberg.org/license. - -Section 1. General Terms of Use and Redistributing Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic works - -1.A. By reading or using any part of this Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic work, you indicate that you have read, understand, agree to -and accept all the terms of this license and intellectual property -(trademark/copyright) agreement. If you do not agree to abide by all -the terms of this agreement, you must cease using and return or -destroy all copies of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works in your -possession. If you paid a fee for obtaining a copy of or access to a -Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work and you do not agree to be bound -by the terms of this agreement, you may obtain a refund from the -person or entity to whom you paid the fee as set forth in paragraph -1.E.8. - -1.B. "Project Gutenberg" is a registered trademark. It may only be -used on or associated in any way with an electronic work by people who -agree to be bound by the terms of this agreement. There are a few -things that you can do with most Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works -even without complying with the full terms of this agreement. See -paragraph 1.C below. There are a lot of things you can do with Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic works if you follow the terms of this -agreement and help preserve free future access to Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic works. See paragraph 1.E below. - -1.C. The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation ("the -Foundation" or PGLAF), owns a compilation copyright in the collection -of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works. Nearly all the individual -works in the collection are in the public domain in the United -States. If an individual work is unprotected by copyright law in the -United States and you are located in the United States, we do not -claim a right to prevent you from copying, distributing, performing, -displaying or creating derivative works based on the work as long as -all references to Project Gutenberg are removed. Of course, we hope -that you will support the Project Gutenberg-tm mission of promoting -free access to electronic works by freely sharing Project Gutenberg-tm -works in compliance with the terms of this agreement for keeping the -Project Gutenberg-tm name associated with the work. You can easily -comply with the terms of this agreement by keeping this work in the -same format with its attached full Project Gutenberg-tm License when -you share it without charge with others. - -1.D. The copyright laws of the place where you are located also govern -what you can do with this work. Copyright laws in most countries are -in a constant state of change. If you are outside the United States, -check the laws of your country in addition to the terms of this -agreement before downloading, copying, displaying, performing, -distributing or creating derivative works based on this work or any -other Project Gutenberg-tm work. The Foundation makes no -representations concerning the copyright status of any work in any -country outside the United States. - -1.E. Unless you have removed all references to Project Gutenberg: - -1.E.1. The following sentence, with active links to, or other -immediate access to, the full Project Gutenberg-tm License must appear -prominently whenever any copy of a Project Gutenberg-tm work (any work -on which the phrase "Project Gutenberg" appears, or with which the -phrase "Project Gutenberg" is associated) is accessed, displayed, -performed, viewed, copied or distributed: - - This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere in the United States and - most other parts of the world at no cost and with almost no - restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it - under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included with this - eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org. If you are not located in the - United States, you'll have to check the laws of the country where you - are located before using this ebook. - -1.E.2. If an individual Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work is -derived from texts not protected by U.S. copyright law (does not -contain a notice indicating that it is posted with permission of the -copyright holder), the work can be copied and distributed to anyone in -the United States without paying any fees or charges. If you are -redistributing or providing access to a work with the phrase "Project -Gutenberg" associated with or appearing on the work, you must comply -either with the requirements of paragraphs 1.E.1 through 1.E.7 or -obtain permission for the use of the work and the Project Gutenberg-tm -trademark as set forth in paragraphs 1.E.8 or 1.E.9. - -1.E.3. If an individual Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work is posted -with the permission of the copyright holder, your use and distribution -must comply with both paragraphs 1.E.1 through 1.E.7 and any -additional terms imposed by the copyright holder. Additional terms -will be linked to the Project Gutenberg-tm License for all works -posted with the permission of the copyright holder found at the -beginning of this work. - -1.E.4. Do not unlink or detach or remove the full Project Gutenberg-tm -License terms from this work, or any files containing a part of this -work or any other work associated with Project Gutenberg-tm. - -1.E.5. Do not copy, display, perform, distribute or redistribute this -electronic work, or any part of this electronic work, without -prominently displaying the sentence set forth in paragraph 1.E.1 with -active links or immediate access to the full terms of the Project -Gutenberg-tm License. - -1.E.6. You may convert to and distribute this work in any binary, -compressed, marked up, nonproprietary or proprietary form, including -any word processing or hypertext form. However, if you provide access -to or distribute copies of a Project Gutenberg-tm work in a format -other than "Plain Vanilla ASCII" or other format used in the official -version posted on the official Project Gutenberg-tm web site -(www.gutenberg.org), you must, at no additional cost, fee or expense -to the user, provide a copy, a means of exporting a copy, or a means -of obtaining a copy upon request, of the work in its original "Plain -Vanilla ASCII" or other form. Any alternate format must include the -full Project Gutenberg-tm License as specified in paragraph 1.E.1. - -1.E.7. Do not charge a fee for access to, viewing, displaying, -performing, copying or distributing any Project Gutenberg-tm works -unless you comply with paragraph 1.E.8 or 1.E.9. - -1.E.8. You may charge a reasonable fee for copies of or providing -access to or distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works -provided that - -* You pay a royalty fee of 20% of the gross profits you derive from - the use of Project Gutenberg-tm works calculated using the method - you already use to calculate your applicable taxes. The fee is owed - to the owner of the Project Gutenberg-tm trademark, but he has - agreed to donate royalties under this paragraph to the Project - Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation. Royalty payments must be paid - within 60 days following each date on which you prepare (or are - legally required to prepare) your periodic tax returns. Royalty - payments should be clearly marked as such and sent to the Project - Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation at the address specified in - Section 4, "Information about donations to the Project Gutenberg - Literary Archive Foundation." - -* You provide a full refund of any money paid by a user who notifies - you in writing (or by e-mail) within 30 days of receipt that s/he - does not agree to the terms of the full Project Gutenberg-tm - License. You must require such a user to return or destroy all - copies of the works possessed in a physical medium and discontinue - all use of and all access to other copies of Project Gutenberg-tm - works. - -* You provide, in accordance with paragraph 1.F.3, a full refund of - any money paid for a work or a replacement copy, if a defect in the - electronic work is discovered and reported to you within 90 days of - receipt of the work. - -* You comply with all other terms of this agreement for free - distribution of Project Gutenberg-tm works. - -1.E.9. If you wish to charge a fee or distribute a Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic work or group of works on different terms than -are set forth in this agreement, you must obtain permission in writing -from both the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation and The -Project Gutenberg Trademark LLC, the owner of the Project Gutenberg-tm -trademark. Contact the Foundation as set forth in Section 3 below. - -1.F. - -1.F.1. Project Gutenberg volunteers and employees expend considerable -effort to identify, do copyright research on, transcribe and proofread -works not protected by U.S. copyright law in creating the Project -Gutenberg-tm collection. Despite these efforts, Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic works, and the medium on which they may be stored, may -contain "Defects," such as, but not limited to, incomplete, inaccurate -or corrupt data, transcription errors, a copyright or other -intellectual property infringement, a defective or damaged disk or -other medium, a computer virus, or computer codes that damage or -cannot be read by your equipment. - -1.F.2. LIMITED WARRANTY, DISCLAIMER OF DAMAGES - Except for the "Right -of Replacement or Refund" described in paragraph 1.F.3, the Project -Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation, the owner of the Project -Gutenberg-tm trademark, and any other party distributing a Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic work under this agreement, disclaim all -liability to you for damages, costs and expenses, including legal -fees. YOU AGREE THAT YOU HAVE NO REMEDIES FOR NEGLIGENCE, STRICT -LIABILITY, BREACH OF WARRANTY OR BREACH OF CONTRACT EXCEPT THOSE -PROVIDED IN PARAGRAPH 1.F.3. YOU AGREE THAT THE FOUNDATION, THE -TRADEMARK OWNER, AND ANY DISTRIBUTOR UNDER THIS AGREEMENT WILL NOT BE -LIABLE TO YOU FOR ACTUAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE OR -INCIDENTAL DAMAGES EVEN IF YOU GIVE NOTICE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH -DAMAGE. - -1.F.3. LIMITED RIGHT OF REPLACEMENT OR REFUND - If you discover a -defect in this electronic work within 90 days of receiving it, you can -receive a refund of the money (if any) you paid for it by sending a -written explanation to the person you received the work from. If you -received the work on a physical medium, you must return the medium -with your written explanation. The person or entity that provided you -with the defective work may elect to provide a replacement copy in -lieu of a refund. If you received the work electronically, the person -or entity providing it to you may choose to give you a second -opportunity to receive the work electronically in lieu of a refund. If -the second copy is also defective, you may demand a refund in writing -without further opportunities to fix the problem. - -1.F.4. Except for the limited right of replacement or refund set forth -in paragraph 1.F.3, this work is provided to you 'AS-IS', WITH NO -OTHER WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT -LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PURPOSE. - -1.F.5. Some states do not allow disclaimers of certain implied -warranties or the exclusion or limitation of certain types of -damages. If any disclaimer or limitation set forth in this agreement -violates the law of the state applicable to this agreement, the -agreement shall be interpreted to make the maximum disclaimer or -limitation permitted by the applicable state law. The invalidity or -unenforceability of any provision of this agreement shall not void the -remaining provisions. - -1.F.6. INDEMNITY - You agree to indemnify and hold the Foundation, the -trademark owner, any agent or employee of the Foundation, anyone -providing copies of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works in -accordance with this agreement, and any volunteers associated with the -production, promotion and distribution of Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic works, harmless from all liability, costs and expenses, -including legal fees, that arise directly or indirectly from any of -the following which you do or cause to occur: (a) distribution of this -or any Project Gutenberg-tm work, (b) alteration, modification, or -additions or deletions to any Project Gutenberg-tm work, and (c) any -Defect you cause. - -Section 2. Information about the Mission of Project Gutenberg-tm - -Project Gutenberg-tm is synonymous with the free distribution of -electronic works in formats readable by the widest variety of -computers including obsolete, old, middle-aged and new computers. It -exists because of the efforts of hundreds of volunteers and donations -from people in all walks of life. - -Volunteers and financial support to provide volunteers with the -assistance they need are critical to reaching Project Gutenberg-tm's -goals and ensuring that the Project Gutenberg-tm collection will -remain freely available for generations to come. In 2001, the Project -Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation was created to provide a secure -and permanent future for Project Gutenberg-tm and future -generations. To learn more about the Project Gutenberg Literary -Archive Foundation and how your efforts and donations can help, see -Sections 3 and 4 and the Foundation information page at -www.gutenberg.org - - - -Section 3. Information about the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation - -The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation is a non profit -501(c)(3) educational corporation organized under the laws of the -state of Mississippi and granted tax exempt status by the Internal -Revenue Service. The Foundation's EIN or federal tax identification -number is 64-6221541. Contributions to the Project Gutenberg Literary -Archive Foundation are tax deductible to the full extent permitted by -U.S. federal laws and your state's laws. - -The Foundation's principal office is in Fairbanks, Alaska, with the -mailing address: PO Box 750175, Fairbanks, AK 99775, but its -volunteers and employees are scattered throughout numerous -locations. Its business office is located at 809 North 1500 West, Salt -Lake City, UT 84116, (801) 596-1887. Email contact links and up to -date contact information can be found at the Foundation's web site and -official page at www.gutenberg.org/contact - -For additional contact information: - - Dr. Gregory B. Newby - Chief Executive and Director - gbnewby@pglaf.org - -Section 4. Information about Donations to the Project Gutenberg -Literary Archive Foundation - -Project Gutenberg-tm depends upon and cannot survive without wide -spread public support and donations to carry out its mission of -increasing the number of public domain and licensed works that can be -freely distributed in machine readable form accessible by the widest -array of equipment including outdated equipment. Many small donations -($1 to $5,000) are particularly important to maintaining tax exempt -status with the IRS. - -The Foundation is committed to complying with the laws regulating -charities and charitable donations in all 50 states of the United -States. Compliance requirements are not uniform and it takes a -considerable effort, much paperwork and many fees to meet and keep up -with these requirements. We do not solicit donations in locations -where we have not received written confirmation of compliance. To SEND -DONATIONS or determine the status of compliance for any particular -state visit www.gutenberg.org/donate - -While we cannot and do not solicit contributions from states where we -have not met the solicitation requirements, we know of no prohibition -against accepting unsolicited donations from donors in such states who -approach us with offers to donate. - -International donations are gratefully accepted, but we cannot make -any statements concerning tax treatment of donations received from -outside the United States. U.S. laws alone swamp our small staff. - -Please check the Project Gutenberg Web pages for current donation -methods and addresses. Donations are accepted in a number of other -ways including checks, online payments and credit card donations. To -donate, please visit: www.gutenberg.org/donate - -Section 5. General Information About Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works. - -Professor Michael S. Hart was the originator of the Project -Gutenberg-tm concept of a library of electronic works that could be -freely shared with anyone. For forty years, he produced and -distributed Project Gutenberg-tm eBooks with only a loose network of -volunteer support. - -Project Gutenberg-tm eBooks are often created from several printed -editions, all of which are confirmed as not protected by copyright in -the U.S. unless a copyright notice is included. Thus, we do not -necessarily keep eBooks in compliance with any particular paper -edition. - -Most people start at our Web site which has the main PG search -facility: www.gutenberg.org - -This Web site includes information about Project Gutenberg-tm, -including how to make donations to the Project Gutenberg Literary -Archive Foundation, how to help produce our new eBooks, and how to -subscribe to our email newsletter to hear about new eBooks. - |