diff options
Diffstat (limited to '44012.txt')
| -rw-r--r-- | 44012.txt | 44738 |
1 files changed, 0 insertions, 44738 deletions
diff --git a/44012.txt b/44012.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 0af60e3..0000000 --- a/44012.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,44738 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings Vol. -XII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings Vol. XII (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 21, 2013 [EBook #44012] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V12 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - - -Transcriber's note: Stylized "L" is denoted as =L=. Italics are -represented by _underscores_. - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ XII - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XII: -Charles Batchelor, Jesse E. Curry, J. E. Decker, W. B. Frazier, O. A. -Jones, Jack Revill, James Maurice Solomon, M. W. Stevenson, and Cecil -E. Talbert, Charles Oliver Arnett, Buford Lee Beaty, Alvin R. Brock, -B. H. Combest, Kenneth Hudson Croy, Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw, Napoleon J. -Daniels, William J. Harrison, Harold B. Holly, Jr., Harry M. Kriss, Roy -Lee Lowery, Frank M. Martin, Billy Joe Maxey, Logan W. Mayo, Louis D. -Miller, William J. Newman, Bobby G. Patterson, Rio S. Pierce, James A. -Putnam, Willie B. Slack, Don Francis Steele, Roy Eugene Vaughn, James -C. Watson, G. E. Worley, and Woodrow Wiggins, Dallas law enforcement -officers who were responsible for planning and executing the transfer -of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County -Jail; and Don Ray Archer, Barnard S. Clardy, and Patrick Trevore Dean, -who participated in the arrest and questioning of Jack L. Ruby. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - Charles Batchelor 1 - Jesse E. Curry 25 - J. E. (Bill) Decker 42 - W. B. Frazier 52 - O. A. Jones 58 - Jack Revill 73 - James Maurice Solomon 87 - M. W. Stevenson 91 - Cecil E. Talbert 108 - Charles Oliver Arnett 128 - Buford Lee Beaty 158 - Alvin R. Brock 171 - B. H. Combest 176 - Kenneth Hudson Croy 186 - Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw 206 - Napoleon J. Daniels 225 - William J. Harrison 234 - Harold B. Holly, Jr 261 - Harry M. Kriss 266 - Roy Lee Lowery 271 - Frank M. Martin 277 - Billy Joe Maxey 285 - Logan W. Mayo 291 - Louis D. Miller 297 - William J. Newman 314 - Bobby G. Patterson 334 - Rio S. Pierce 337 - James A. Putnam 341 - Willie B. Slack 347 - Don Francis Steele 353 - Roy Eugene Vaughn 357 - James C. Watson 372 - G. E. Worley 378 - Woodrow Wiggins 388 - Don Ray Archer 395 - Barnard S. Clardy 403 - Patrick Trevore Dean 415 - - -EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Archer Exhibit No.: Page - 5091 397 - 5092 401 - 5093 401 - Arnett Exhibit No.: - 5032 131 - 5033 131 - 5034 150 - 5035 154 - 5036 154 - Batchelor Exhibit No.: - 5000 5 - 5001 13 - 5002 22 - Beaty Exhibit No.: - 5039 170 - 5040 163 - 5641 170 - Brock Exhibit No.: - 5113 173 - 5114 176 - 5115 176 - Clardy Exhibit No.: - 5061 404 - 5062 404 - 5063 404 - 5064 407 - Combest Exhibit No.: - 5099 178 - 5100 180 - 5101 178 - Croy Exhibit No.: - 5051 187 - 5052 188 - 5053 188 - 5054 199 - Curry Exhibit No.: - 5313 40 - 5314 41 - Cutchshaw Exhibit No.: - 5042 207 - 5043 207 - 5044 207 - 5045 225 - 5046 209 - Daniels Exhibit No.: - 5324 228 - 5325 232 - 5326 232 - 5327 232 - Dean Exhibit No.: - 5007 423 - 5008 439 - 5009 442 - 5010 441 - 5011 445 - 5012 444 - 5136 446 - 5136-A 446 - 5137 447 - 5138 449 - Decker Exhibit No.: - 5321 50 - 5322 50 - 5323 51 - Frazier Exhibit No.: - 5086 56 - 5087 57 - Harrison Exhibit No.: - 5027 245 - 5028 245 - 5029 259 - 5030 256 - 5031 259 - Holly Exhibit No.: - 5109 264 - 5110 264 - 5111 265 - Jones Exhibit No.: - 5054 59 - 5055 59 - 5056 59 - 5057 66 - Kriss Exhibit No.: - 5106 267 - 5107 267 - 5108 268 - Lowery Exhibit No.: - 5081 272 - 5082 272 - 5083 272 - 5084 274 - 5085 277 - Martin Exhibit No.: - 5058 278 - 5059 278 - 5060 281 - Maxey Exhibit No.: - 5094 287 - 5095 288 - 5096 288 - Mayo Exhibit No.: - 5111 293 - 5112 293 - Miller Exhibit No.: - 5013 313 - 5014 313 - Newman Exhibit No.: - 5037 318 - 5038 325 - 5038-A 330 - 5038-B 330 - 5038-C 331 - 5038-D 331 - 5038-E 334 - Patterson Exhibit No.: - 5311 335 - 5312 336 - - Pierce Exhibit No.: - 5077 340 - 5078 340 - 5079 340 - Putnam Exhibit No.: - 5071 342 - 5072 343 - 5073 343 - Slack Exhibit No.: - 5116 352 - 5117 352 - Solomon Exhibit No.: - 5106 90 - 5107 91 - Steele Exhibit No.: - 5097 356 - 5098 356 - Stevenson Exhibit No.: - 5050 98 - 5051 106 - 5052 106 - 5053 107 - Talbert Exhibit No.: - 5065 122 - 5066 122 - 5067 122 - 5068 122 - 5069 123 - 5070 113 - Vaughn Exhibit No.: - 5334 371 - 5335 371 - 5336 371 - Watson Exhibit No.: - 5102 373 - 5103 373 - 5104 374 - 5105 374 - Wiggins Exhibit No.: - 5074 393 - 5075 394 - 5076 392 - Worley Exhibit No.: - 5047 379 - 5048 380 - 5049 381 - 5050 388 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR - -The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 8:30 -p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post -Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. -Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the -provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the -rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the -Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to -take a sworn deposition from you, Chief Batchelor. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature -of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the -security surrounding the protection of Lee Harvey Oswald and any other -pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry having to -do with the death of President Kennedy. - -Chief Batchelor, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general -request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's -Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled -to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But -the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that any witness may -waive this notice. Do you now waive this notice? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name for the record? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Charles Batchelor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your age? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Fifty-eight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Batchelor? - -Chief BATCHELOR. 1022 Franklin Avenue, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I am assistant chief of police of the Dallas Police -Department. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Since May 1, 1936. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been assistant chief? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Since January 20, 1960. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course you and I have spoken at some length earlier -this afternoon. In that conversation, we discussed your activities from -the time that you learned that President Kennedy was shot on November -22 until Saturday, November 23, when you first heard something about -the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the -Dallas County Jail. I believe you told me that sometime on Saturday -night you were confronted by some newspaper reporters with respect to -the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us, Chief Batchelor, about what time of the -night these reporters approached you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. This must have been somewhere around 7:30 or 8 o'clock -at night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the administrative offices of the police -department at headquarters. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the third floor? On the third floor of the -police and---- - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you inside your own office? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; I was out in the outer office of the -administrative offices where the secretaries are. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how many reporters confronted you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. There were two of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who they were? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't recall who they were now. It was a rather -casual request. They asked, or they said, rather, that they were hungry -and hadn't had anything to eat and they wanted to go out to dinner, -and they didn't want to miss anything if we were going to move the -prisoner. And I told them I had no idea when they were going to move -the prisoner. - -About that time Chief Curry came up and he told them, he said, "Oh, I -think if you fellows are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning you -won't miss anything." - -So they left with that and went to eat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other reporters around at that time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. Then later, just a very few minutes later, -Chief Curry decided, well, he might tell the rest of the people out in -the hall so they won't be hanging around, because they were apparently -doing nothing, just waiting. So he went out and told them that if they -would come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, they were not going to -move the prisoner in the meantime. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Chief Curry after he first spoke to -these two newspaper reporters? - -Chief BATCHELOR. You mean with reference to the movement of the -prisoner? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Chief BATCHELOR. He told me that he didn't know exactly when they -would move him, but he thought homicide bureau was about through with -questioning him, but he knew that Captain Fritz wanted to question him -again in the morning, and that after he had questioned him, why, we -would move him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that conversation take place? - -Chief BATCHELOR. In the administrative offices. One thing I think I -omitted. From the time that he told these reporters that if they were -to come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, he didn't think they would -miss anything, he went in and discussed it with Captain Fritz as to how -he was progressing with the interrogation and whether or not he thought -he would be through with him in the morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean this was between the time he---- - -Chief BATCHELOR. Before he went out and announced it to the rest of the -press. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time elapsed, would you say, from the -time he talked to the two reporters and the time he made the general -announcement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, I would estimate maybe 30 minutes; no longer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in between times, did he talk with you about the -movement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Afterwards, did he talk with you about the proposed -movement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. You mean the mechanics of moving him? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the next thing you learned about the proposed -movement of Oswald? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I just assumed that we would move him the next morning -sometime after 10 o'clock. I didn't know exactly when, and I came down -the next morning around 8 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn anything about the movement between the time -Chief Curry made the general announcement to the press and the time -that you went home that night? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any conversation around the building? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else present from the police department -when you talked with the two newspaper reporters? - -Chief BATCHELOR. There were some secretaries in the office. This was -not addressed to me particularly. They might have overheard it. We were -in the office, in the outer office nearest Chief Curry's office at this -time, and I believe Mrs. Ann Schreiber was holding down that desk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you leave the police department on Saturday -night or Sunday morning? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It was, I believe, on Saturday night, or Sunday -morning. It was around midnight. It wasn't quite as late as it was the -night before when I left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that about 4 hours elapsed -between the chief's press conference and the time you left? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I would say maybe not quite that long, but that is not -too far off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, maybe this will help you a little bit to refresh -your recollection. - -Chief BATCHELOR. I want to take that back. It was earlier than that -when I left there on Saturday night. It was quite late on Friday night, -but it was around 9:30 when I left Saturday night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you referring to this, correcting this estimate? Are -you referring to this report dated November 23d? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I think the times in this are fairly accurate. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, I want to hand you what has already been marked for -identification as Stevenson Exhibit 5053. Can you identify that? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. This was a report signed by myself, Chief -Lumpkin, and Chief Stevenson which was the result of a staff resume -made within a few days after Oswald was shot. - -It was for the purpose of bringing together the facts and times and -elements of events in a chronological order as we all remembered them. -Some of the times, particularly with reference to the President's -arrival, which had to do with meeting with some Secret Service people -and other groups, and some of this we were a little bit hazy on at -first and we went back and checked some facts. - -As an example, we checked the Baker Hotel schedule on a room that was -reserved for a meeting that was held, so we could be sure what time -this meeting was, and things of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. The members of the police department held a meeting -at the Baker Hotel sometime over the weekend? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. The hostess committee of the city which was -hosting the President's arrival and arranging for the luncheon, it was -kind of a planning committee, and we were asked, or I was asked to one -of these meetings with some of the Secret Service people. - -So this was a reference point for some of our thinking when this -happened that we could relate some other things. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now your report indicates that you left Saturday night at -9:30 p.m. Between the time that Chief Curry made his announcement to -the press and you left at 9:30 p.m., were you confronted by any other -newspaper people about the movement of Oswald? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. As a matter of fact, we left not too long -after this because after this announcement was made, the press began to -leave themselves. The third floor became fairly quiet and there wasn't -anybody up there to speak of and it just died out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you confronted by anybody after the chief made his -announcement with respect to Oswald? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not that I recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how you arrived at the time at 9:30, stated -in the report? Was that based on your records? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That was fresh in my mind when we wrote this report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was left in charge of the police department that -night after you left at 9:30? - -Chief BATCHELOR. We have a night chief who comes on at 5 o'clock in the -afternoon and he works until 2 in the morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who it was that night? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, there is only one. It would have been Chief Jack -Tanner. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would then replace him at 2 o'clock in the morning? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No one. There is a, well, I say no one. There is -an inspector also who works around the clock. I don't recall which -inspector was on duty that night, but there is an inspector on duty at -night around the clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice--if you want to refer to your report on page 29, -the report indicates that you received a telephone call at your home -about 6:30 in the morning from Captain Talbert. Can you tell us what -that call was about? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. He called and informed me that he had gotten -a call, and he didn't tell me at the time where he got it; he said an -anonymous call. - -Later I learned it came from the FBI, and they in turn had called -him. That about a hundred men were going to take the prisoner Oswald -and they didn't want to get any policeman hurt. So I told him to send -a squad by Chief Curry's house and inform him about it. And at that -moment we weren't concerned about him in the jail. We were concerned -about him in the transfer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did Talbert call you rather than some other member of -the police department? - -Chief BATCHELOR. He tried to call Chief Curry and he couldn't get him -to answer his phone. I guess he was dog-tired and he couldn't get him -up. And I told him to send a squad car by and tell him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have any discussion with him at that point -who had responsibility to make this decision? Did you feel you had the -responsibility to give instructions on the basis of having received -this report that some men were going to try to go after Oswald? Did you -feel you had any responsibility to take any protective action? - -Chief BATCHELOR. At that moment? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. The way it came to me, it was my feeling that this -was to happen when we attempted to transfer him, not to come up to the -jail and get him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you received that phone call? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I got up and dressed to come down to the office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive down at the office? - -Chief BATCHELOR. About 8 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got to the office? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Chief Stevenson and I got there about the same time. I -parked my car in the basement and we walked into the city hall or into -the police station, and we noticed a television camera set up in the -areaway leading into the garage. - -I made the comment that they would have to do something about the -television camera because it was right in the path where they would -bring the prisoner out. There was no one around the camera. It was just -sitting there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you here, chief, a diagram of the inside of -the basement garage area. Do you have a pencil or anything that you can -mark with? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. The camera--can I mark here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Chief BATCHELOR. The camera was sitting right here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put a "C" there so we know it is a camera. - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Complies.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what television station had this camera there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It was KRLD. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think it was KRLD? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I just seem to recall that in my mind the letters on -the side of the camera. I could be wrong. It could have been a WBAP -camera. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the camera manned? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people in the basement area at that -time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it that you instructed to move the camera? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't instruct anybody at that moment. We merely -commented it was going to be moved, but instructed it to be moved later -when we came back down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after you passed the camera? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Went up to the office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Went through the basement and into the elevator and -went up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You went up to the third floor? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To your office. Do you remember what conversation you had -with Chief Stevenson along the way? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, we were commenting about that camera and that -they were going to have to move it, and we were going to have to man -that basement. But at the moment, plans hadn't jelled as to when we -would move him. Actually, back in our minds, I suppose, was the idea -that when the time came, that the sheriff's department would probably -move him, because this is customary in moving a prisoner. They normally -come down and get the prisoner. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss with Chief Stevenson anywhere along the -way upstairs this phone call which you received from Mr. Talbert -earlier in the morning? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I think I mentioned that to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about that conversation? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Not anything especially. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he knew or Stevenson knew at the -time you saw him down in the basement that there had been such a threat? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I believe he did. I think someone from one of his -bureaus had called him, if I remember right. It was rather common -knowledge that a call like that had been received. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked to the elevator in the basement, do you -recall whether or not there were any people in the basement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't remember anybody except those people in -the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The people in the jail office were employees of the jail? - -Chief BATCHELOR. They were the jail crew that stay on all night long; -yes. Not the all night. These would have been the morning shift just -come on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At what time did that morning shift come on? - -Chief BATCHELOR. At 7 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, would you take this diagram and mark on there the -time that you believe you saw that camera? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am marking this, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March -23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 5000." - -As you walked into the building and went up to the third floor, did you -see anybody in the garage area or along the ramp or near the record -room other than police department employees? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what happened when you got up to the third floor? -What did you do? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I went to my office. I don't remember exactly what I -did. Chief Curry came in very shortly after that, and I went into this -office and we started discussing the possibility of moving the prisoner. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now will you try to remember who else was in the office -with Chief Curry when you walked in? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in after you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Stevenson came in a little bit later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later, would you say? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, 2 or 3 minutes later, if I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody else come in after that during this -conversation? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that they did. I don't believe there -was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Lunday come in? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. Chief Lunday didn't come down until later in the -morning, I believe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Captain Talbert join you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Talbert still on duty when you arrived at the -police department? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Captain Talbert was on duty that morning. He came on -at 7 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Talbert came on at 7, but as I understand it, Talbert -called you at your home about 6:30. How did that happen? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he is a platoon commander, and a platoon -commander comes down early before the rest of the men to get his -detail, and he had gotten this information from the night commander. -The information came into them before they came on duty, and someone -had tried to call Chief Curry. When they came down, they told me about -it and I called them and I told them to send a squad by and wake Chief -Curry up and tell him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What platoon was Talbert in charge of? - -Chief BATCHELOR. The second platoon that month. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By "platoon," what do you mean? - -Chief BATCHELOR. The first platoon is the night platoon that comes -on theoretically at midnight. It actually comes on at 11 o'clock the -preceding day and it goes to 7 o'clock the next morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What area does a platoon man? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It mans the city. This is a uniform platoon. We -have three substations and they change the same way. The substations -are under the platoon commander, and each of the substations has a -lieutenant in charge of the substation who accounts to the platoon -commander, who is a captain. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell me if my understanding is right, that Talbert at this -point had operational responsibility for all the men throughout the -city? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sort of like the executive officer on a ship or something? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what your conversation was with Chief Curry up in -his office when you first went in? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I asked him, I believe, if he had called Sheriff -Decker. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say? - -Chief BATCHELOR. He said, no, he hadn't, but he was fixing to do that. -And he did do it. He picked up the phone and called Sheriff Decker. - -This was--I got down around 9 o'clock--I mean around 8 o'clock, -correction--and it must have been somewhere around 8:30 or 8:45 when he -called Decker. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him before he called Sheriff -Decker? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Just a few minutes. He called Sheriff Decker, and -Decker said--and I was hearing only one side of the conversation, but -I gathered that Decker had told him he thought he was going to move the -prisoner. Curry said, "Well, if you want us to, we will." So he said, -"I think you've got more manpower than we have. You move him if you -will." - -Then we had discussed this threat that had been received and---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You and---- - -Chief BATCHELOR. Curry. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Curry mention the threat to Decker in the telephone -conversation? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I just don't remember whether he did or not. I would -think reasonably that he did, but I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Chief Curry talked with Decker, did he make any -mention of what time Oswald would be moved? - -Chief BATCHELOR. He didn't set any definite time. He told him that -Captain Fritz wanted to question Oswald again that morning, and that -when he got through, they would be ready to move him, and he thought -this would be sometime after 10 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Fritz begun to question Oswald when Curry was on the -telephone with Decker? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I really don't know. Shortly after we made the -decision, Curry went back to the office and they were questioning him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when Curry and Decker talked on the telephone on this -occasion, did Curry say anything about how Oswald would be moved? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I think he called him back later and told him -how after we had talked, because we hadn't made the decision to use an -armored car to move him, armored truck, until after we had determined -that he wasn't going to move him and it was going to be our job. Then -we decided to discuss the armored car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Curry have any discussion with Decker in this -first telephone conversation about the route that would be followed in -moving Oswald? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think so, because I am sure we didn't know at -that moment just exactly what we would do. He went back and talked to -Fritz about the advisability of this later, and we discussed it, and -Stevenson came up and discussed it, and our plan was to take him down -Elm Street originally. We would go out of the basement to Commerce, -Commerce to Central Expressway, north on Central to Elm, and then west -on Elm to Houston, and then go back east to the jail entrance door of -the county jail and come in. This was our original plan. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In this first telephone conversation with Decker was -Stevenson present in Curry's office? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't believe he was. I know he wasn't when we -started. He may have walked in there while I was talking to him, but I -believe Curry and I was the only ones present. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Curry finished talking with Decker and he hung up the -phone, did he say anything to you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; he said obviously Decker wants us to move him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I said we'd better start making some arrangements -then. And he said, "What do you think about getting an armored car, an -armored truck?" - -And I said, "I think I know where I can get one." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? - -Chief BATCHELOR. This was from the Armored Motor Car Service. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It is on--what is the name of that street? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the downtown area? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It just borders on the downtown area. It is off of -Ross Avenue. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. North or south? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It is north of Ross Avenue. I should think of the name -of the street. It is an old street here, but I just can't think of it -offhand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of the armored car company again? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Armored Motor Car Service. It is actually a Fort Worth -company who services both Dallas and Fort Worth, and they have an -office here, too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. - -Chief BATCHELOR. After this, I told him that I thought I could get one. -I then went to the city directory to see who was in charge here, where -I might get ahold of his phone number. And I called the vice president -at his home. This was on Sunday morning. It was before he had gone to -church. It must have been somewhere around 9 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us the name of the vice president? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It was Mr. Fleming. Mr. Fleming was the vice -president, and I talked to him at his home, and he told me that he -would be glad to furnish us one. As a matter of fact, he had two trucks -which we could take our choice. One was a small truck, but would -accommodate only one passenger in the back. The other one was what they -call an overland truck, and it had seats on either side in the back and -would accommodate several people. - -And I said, "I don't know whether this will go down to the basement or -not." But I asked him how tall it was and he said he didn't know, but -he would have it measured and let me know. And I told him that I would -find out what the height of the ramp was. We have a low place in the -ramp as you go down at the bottom of the ramp, and it is only 7 feet 5 -inches tall at that point, so I found out what that height was, and I -called him back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now at the time you first talked with Mr. Fleming, did you -indicate to him what time you would need the armored vehicle? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I told him sometime around 10 or a little after. -And he said he would get there as quickly as possible. He had to -call a crew down to man the truck. And Mr. Hall, who is their Dallas -representative here, brought the truck down with another driver driving -the small one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the truck brought down? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It was brought down--probably it wasn't at 10 o'clock, -because they didn't get there that early. It must have been closer to -11 o'clock when they finally got down there with it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say anything else to Mr. Fleming during this first -telephone conversation? Did you tell him anything about the route? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't believe that I told him the route we were -going to take, no. I know I didn't tell him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were on the telephone with Mr. Fleming, where -was Chief Curry, if you know? - -Chief BATCHELOR. He was in his office. I called Mr. Fleming from my -office. I left his office and went into my office and called him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Chief Stevenson, where was he? - -Chief BATCHELOR. He was either in his office or in Chief Curry's office -with him. We were all together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Curry got off the first telephone call -with Decker, was there anything that Stevenson was supposed to do? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he and I both, under Chief Curry's instructions, -he said you'd better go downstairs and see what manpower you will need -to cover that basement down there. One other thing, Chief Lumpkin had -come in and he was the man I asked to find out for me how tall that -ramp was down there, what the clearance was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Lumpkin go down there before or after you called -Fleming? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I think he went down there. He called somebody down -that knew how tall it was, but that was after I talked to Fleming the -first time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does your office, Chief, maintain any records of outgoing -telephone calls? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you were talking to Fleming, between the -time that the chief talked with Decker and you talked with Fleming, -would there have been any occasion for a dispatcher to make any -particular communication to the people in the field as a result of the -conversation with Decker? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. As a matter of fact, nobody knew this. I -mean, except the few people on the staff. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that nobody would have known about the -particular contents of the conversation, but what I am getting at is, -is there any reason that somebody might have said at this point he knew -you were going to have to make a move, you'd better dispatch the men -in? You'd better send out a general call to bring in more men? - -Chief BATCHELOR. This would have been handled in a telephone -conversation with the dispatcher, yet nobody would know the real reason -for it. Talbert did have some men called in. He did have some men -called in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Talbert come to make this call in relation to the -conversation? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know, unless he was anticipating. Well, -I don't know how to say it. It had gotten on the radio and in the -newspapers and everywhere else that this was going to be at 10 o'clock, -I presume, because there was people all up and down the street, across -the street from the city hall on Commerce waiting for this thing to -happen. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they waiting there when you came in at 8 o'clock? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, there wasn't anybody there that early, but they -were down there around 10 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything that might have happened in the -ordinary course of things after Decker and Curry talked, that would -have been recorded in the police department? - -Chief BATCHELOR. About the movement of the prisoner? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am particularly referring to the movement of the -prisoner, but I am thinking of something that might pinpoint the time -in which this conversation with Decker occurred, that Curry might have -said at this point, "All right, Stevenson, bring in so many men," and -Stevenson would have told the dispatcher to send out a call, and nobody -would have known the purpose of the call, but it would fix a time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Stevenson went back after we determined we were going -to have to secure the basement and move the prisoner. He went back to -his bureau and had them send some men down there, some detectives. - -He didn't have to call them from the field. He had them back there. - -Talbert sent out and got some men, and I don't know whose direction -he did that on, but we went down there to see what manpower we would -need. And when we got there, he had them there, and where he got this -information, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after you talked with Fleming the first time, what did -you do? After you finished that telephone conversation? - -Chief BATCHELOR. We went downstairs and that is when we had instructed -them--it was Wiggins, I believe, in the jail office, to get that camera -out of there. And we instructed them--Curry went down with us, too, and -there were two cars sitting across from the jail exit door. They were -sitting in these places right here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to take a pen and mark? - -Chief BATCHELOR. And we had these cars moved [marking on exhibit]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the morning would you estimate that was? - -Chief BATCHELOR. This must have been about 9:30 or 9:15, somewhere -along in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark what you think the approximate time was -in between the two cars where you marked? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Indicates time.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other cars in the basement area at that -time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; there was several other cars. Chief Curry's car -was over here, and mine was over here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the chief's normal parking place? - -Chief BATCHELOR. These all are our normal spaces. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark those in there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.] - -Mine is over here, and I don't know whether Chief Fisher was in there -or not. I don't remember his. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put the time in between those two also? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks time.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time they were parked in there, the time that you are -talking about right now that you saw them there. That is the same time -that was on the other cars? - -Chief BATCHELOR. They were there all morning. They were parked there -and they stayed there up until we moved them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So they were there at 9:15 to 9:30? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks on chart.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other cars in the basement area? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, there were others. I don't recall just exactly. -It wasn't full. It was a Sunday, and Chief Stevenson's car was parked -over here somewhere, and Chief Lunday's, Lumpkin's car was parked here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there general traffic of police cars in and out of the -garage? - -Chief BATCHELOR. There would have been. However, on Sunday morning, -that time of day there is very little traffic in and out of there. It -is one of the quietest times. There were two or three other cars parked -in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the basement at that time, were -there news people in the basement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. When we went down in there the next time, -there was some cameras setting up here that had just been rolled in. -They weren't operative. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's focus on this trip that you took downstairs with, -was it Stevenson? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At 9:15 or 9:30. What is your best estimate of the number -of news people that were down there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. I can tell you a better estimate when we -finally went down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it crowded or sparsely crowded? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn't crowded; no. There wasn't any big -congregation. There may be two or three people from--some television -people standing around there, trying to get set up, and they had some -cables and stuff in there, and the best I remember, we told them they -were going to have to move those cables out of there. And we instructed -Lieutenant Wiggins to move these two vehicles out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Those were the two that are on the Main Street side of the -entrance into the garage area? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, north side. And that we were going to have this -for the news media to stand behind the rail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Right where the two cars were that you wanted to be moved? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and we instructed the television people that they -would have to put their cameras on this side of the driveway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any newspeople yourself? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't myself. I was present there. I don't remember -exactly who directed, whether it was Chief Curry or Stevenson or -myself, but I mean it was three of us standing there, and we all agreed -that this needed to be done, and one of us told them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now this first trip down to the basement, what did you do -besides direct that the two cars on either side of the garage entrance -be moved, and that the camera be moved back there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. We went over in here, and there were some detectives -around in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now can you indicate in words what you are referring to on -the map? - -Chief BATCHELOR. They were along in here. There was a man over here by -this elevator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is---- - -Chief BATCHELOR. City hall elevator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The first place that you referred to was the entrance way -in the garage. Were some people congregated there, and was there a man -at the No. 1 or No. 2 elevator? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; I didn't pay any attention to who he was. It was a -uniformed man standing over there. I later learned this was a reserve -that was over there, but I didn't pay any attention. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The uniformed man was a reserve officer? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you later learn that from? - -Chief BATCHELOR. In the course of the investigation later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Some days after Oswald was shot? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after going over near the elevator where the uniformed -reserve officer was, what did you do next? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, we went back upstairs. And Stevenson had gone at -this time. We went down this first time to see the layout, and there -wasn't too many here. We went back upstairs, and Chief Stevenson sent -some detectives down, and brought his uniformed men in. I came down -the last time, was just before the removal of the prisoner, and in the -meantime I had contacted Mr. Fleming about the armored motor car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You came down three times? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I went up once, and then Stevenson and I came down and -looked this thing over, and then down with Curry, and then the last -time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first occasion when you were down there, you say -you saw this uniformed reserve officer. Did you later learn what his -name was? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't remember it. It is in the report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark with an "X" on the map where that reserve -officer was standing and the approximate time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. (marking). He was standing over here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record indicate that he has marked it with a -circle. This is again somewhere around 9:15 or 9:30? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Somewhere along there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn in the course of your investigation his name? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall his name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that appear anywhere in the report, do you think? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Not in that report. It would appear in the reports -that were made by Captain Jones in the course of investigating who was -where. You have a diagram similar to this with everybody marked on it, -and he is on one of those. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been stationed there by somebody? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now I could be mistaken about the exact time I -saw him there. That is, whether it was this trip or the trip before. I -could be mistaken about it, but I do remember seeing him here when we -came down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, do you want to mark the map then what the -alternate time might be? You might write whatever time you think it was. - -Chief BATCHELOR. (marking). He was there before then, but I am talking -about when I may have seen him there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Chief, after you left the basement area on this first -trip, where did you go? - -Chief BATCHELOR. We went back upstairs to the office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Stevenson go back up with you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back up on the third floor, were there news -media personnel on the third floor? - -Chief BATCHELOR. There were some up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, it was not what you consider a crowded -condition. - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there television cameras still there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived at 8 o'clock in the morning, were there -TV cameras up there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the TV cameras manned at 8 o'clock in the morning? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; the best I remember, they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what TV stations had cameras up there at -that time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It was KRLD and WFAA, if I remember right. And I could -be mistaken about the WFAA. It could have been WBAP. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to remember KRLD? - -Chief BATCHELOR. They were the first ones in there and they had their -truck parked outside. And also, I am pretty sure it was WFAA, because -WFAA had a truck parked on the Harwood Street side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell at 8 o'clock in the morning if they -were shooting footage? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I couldn't tell. All the time that I remember, they -had these little viewers in the back of the thing and you could see -through them and see what was going on through them, look through the -camera. Whether they were shooting footage, there wasn't anything to -shoot that morning. It was pretty quiet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the second trip when you came back upstairs after -your first trip downstairs, where did you go? - -Chief BATCHELOR. After the first trip, I came back up to again get in -touch with Mr. Stevenson and tell him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Fleming? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Fleming, I mean, and tell him what the height of that -thing was. Then he told me, well, I will just send both trucks down -there and you can take the one you want. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This second phone call, was Mr. Fleming at home? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Fleming had been contacted by anyone -in your office or Decker's office or anybody else prior to your first -phone call to him? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I would think not. He couldn't, because this was his -first knowledge of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us what else you said to him? What else -this conversation involved? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall saying anything other than expressing -our appreciation for his help. And he said he would send both of the -trucks down. I told him how to bring the trucks. I told him to bring -them east on Harwood--I mean on Commerce Street, and that we would back -it down the ramp so that we would be leaving the ramp in the right -direction when they pulled out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you had this second conversation with -Fleming, had you discussed with anybody the route by which you would -take Oswald to the county jail? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Nobody but Chief Curry, that I recall, and probably -Chief Stevenson. As a matter of fact, this route that they were to -take was worked out more between Stevenson and Curry and Fritz than -it was with me. My primary job here was to get the truck and get the -cars placed, and it was decided that Chief Curry would lead the car -down there, followed by a car of detectives, and then the armored car, -and then followed by another car of detectives, and then followed by -Stevenson and I in a rear car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This planned route of the movement was to go from Commerce -to Central Expressway, left to Elm Street, then down Elm Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. To Houston; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as a result of that decision, were any cars or -officers called in from the field? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Talbert called his officers in. He had called and -scattered them up. And then there was some discussion about taking it -down Main Street, and I am not too sure where I got this information, -but anyway, he sent a sergeant and moved those officers over a block to -Main Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was the route changed? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I don't know. The route was changed without my -knowing it, really. When they decided to take Oswald in an automobile -instead of the armored car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who participated in that decision? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Chief Curry, Chief Stevenson, Captain Fritz, I -believe--I was not in there when it was discussed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After you talked to Fleming the second time what did you -do? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Then he said he would send them over, and we went -down there to get the cars lined up. This must have been, oh, probably -10:45, 10:30 to 10:45. I went downstairs and I saw the basement well -covered. We had a man at the top of the ramp on Main Street. We had -several men in the basement leading into the garage area just before -you get to the jail office, and I went through there, and Stevenson was -with me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here, Chief. I think I will pull out -another map so that we can mark it. I am going to mark this map, for -the purpose of identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March -23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit 5001." Now I want you to use this exhibit, -Chief, to indicate what you saw on this second trip downstairs, which -you indicated would be what time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I came out of the elevator into the basement and saw -a number of officers across this area right here. There were several -detectives. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark that with "X's"? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] Detective there. We walked through here. We -noticed these cameras had been moved out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about the passageway past the jail office? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Past this jail office here. I noticed that inside the -jail office there were three or four photographers inside the jail -office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, you were at the jail office door nearest to -the ramp driveway, and you looked in that door and you saw some news -people? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; photographers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize any of them? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall them. We went in there and moved them -out. We went and instructed the jail supervisor that there was to be no -one in that jail office except officers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the supervisor? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Lieutenant Wiggins. And we moved them out and we -instructed the reporters, and there were a number of them down there at -that time, by no means all of them, that--later there were, but there -was a good many--we told them they would have to stand back over here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is against the railing? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Along the railing. And they had set up two TV cameras -behind this railing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark with an "S," where the two cameras were set -up? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] Then there was another one right here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that third camera there when you came down at 10:45? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think so. That was the one sitting over there. -These were the two sitting out here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the two cameras that you placed there had been -originally near the record room? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see them near the record room? When you came -in in the morning? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. That trip down after we came down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take Exhibit 5000, and would you mark those two -TV cameras that you saw on the first trip? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you said that that time was 9:15? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now they had been moved here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Behind the railing? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Behind the railing, and this was one sitting here. -That was dead. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are marking in the entrance to the garage off the Main -Street ramp? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That camera that you are marking there in the garage? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Not operating. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, do you mean that the---- - -Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn't hooked up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the other two cameras which you have marked behind the -railing, were they taking shots when you walked down? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't know that they were at that time. They -didn't have any lights on, no floodlights on, and they had been told to -keep their floodlights off. They didn't turn them on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you came down on the second trip at -about 10:45, did you discuss with anybody up on the third floor where -you wanted these TV people placed and what you wanted done with the -lights? - -Chief BATCHELOR. We told the men down here, and we told the reporters -down here, just kind of announced to them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked down? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. Some of them--one of the supervisors came in and -said they couldn't get them all along here and wanted to know if it -would be all right to put them along here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating at the bottom of the Main Street ramp? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Main Street entrance ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Between the railing and jail office? - -Chief BATCHELOR. And the wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. They wanted to put their cameras there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; it wasn't cameras. They just wanted to stand there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you tell them? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Since we couldn't get them in there, he told them -if they would stay back, they could stay there. And there were some -officers that were stationed along there to hold them back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But your original hope was that all of the news media -people could be in the entrance to the garage? - -Chief BATCHELOR. And they were scattered along here, too. Scattered -along the entrance into the garage itself and along here, but some of -them, there just wasn't room for them, and some got across here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain downstairs on this second trip? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think this is the second trip. I think, well, -I guess it is. But I came down here, and Stevenson and I looked this -thing over. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to have to indicate in words. - -Chief BATCHELOR. We looked over the basement to see that the security -was in order. I noticed an officer at the Main Street ramp. - -We walked up the Commerce Street ramp and noticed a crowd of people -across Commerce Street, and was told by one of the supervisors that -they were keeping them across there, and that they allowed no one on -the side next to the police station of the city hall except officers. -And the only people over here were either reservists or regular -officers. They had officers across the street. Chief Lunday told me -they had officers down at the courthouse across from the jail entrance. -Was keeping that crowd back there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as you looked along the sidewalk on the north side -of Commerce Street, from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl--from the -Commerce Street ramp to Pearl Expressway--in other words, in the -direction of the municipal building, could you see how the police -officers were spaced, and how many officers were along the north side -of Commerce Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, it is a good ways to Pearl, and the crowd didn't -extend anywhere near down to Pearl Street. It was mostly just across -from the building up to Harwood Street rather than Pearl. There weren't -that many people there. It wasn't like a parade. I guess there were, -oh, a couple of hundred people across there, perhaps. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether or not there was a police officer at -the corner of Pearl and Commerce? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. I don't remember whether there was or -not. I'm sure there must have been one stationed there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you walked out on the sidewalk and were talking about -this 10:45 trip down to the basement, what did you do? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and walked back in there. They had -parked Chief Curry's car out east of the Commerce Street ramp on the -street, double parked, parallel to some parked cars that were already -there. Then I drove my car out of the basement and parked it west of -the Commerce Street ramp exit, and I double parked it also right behind -his, the intention being that when this convoy came out, that he would -lead off and I would drop in behind Chief Curry with Chief Stevenson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the map where Chief Curry's car was and -where your car was placed on Commerce Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. This confuses me a little here. There is not any -offset. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Unfortunately, this black line that confuses you -represents a basement wall. It doesn't represent the street. - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks on map.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you moved your car out on Commerce -Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Shortly after that just within a few minutes these -armored cars arrived. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing when the armored cars arrived? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the basement, but somebody told me down -there, shouted that these armored cars had arrived, so I came up again -out of the ramp to look at the two cars to see which one we wanted. I -looked in the inside of the larger armored car and decided that this -one is the one we would have to use because it had room not only for -the prisoner, but two guards to be placed in there with him. - -And this one--Mr. Hall, I believe is his name--I think it is Mr. Hall -that drove the truck up there. And this truck was too large or too tall -to drive clear to the foot of the basement ramp. It wouldn't clear -this ceiling at that point, so I asked Mr. Hall to back it in, and he -started backing it in, and he got the truck inside of the ramp with -all of the body inside and the cab on the outside, on the sidewalk. He -stopped and suggested that he not go to the bottom of the ramp with it -because of its weight. He was afraid that in trying to pull out, he -might kill the motor and stall it on the ramp, and suggested that since -it blocked the entrance, if we could use it from that point, he would -rather it go from that point. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the point this conversation took place, had you or -anyone else to your knowledge told Hall what route would be taken? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; we told him he would follow a lead car, and -pointed out the car that he would follow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, did you indicate to him how soon it would -be before Oswald would be brought down? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; this truck was parked in the ramp, and I -thought that this would be a safe place to park it because on one side -of the truck next to the west wall of the ramp there was only about -12 inches of space. And between the truck and the east wall, there -was only 18 to 24 inches of space. I placed an officer between the -west wall and the truck, which totally blocked it. And I placed two -officers between the truck and the east wall, and that totally blocked -that. Then I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck and -searched it. We found a soft drink bottle in the truck, which we took -out. I found a loose bolt lying on the floor, which I took out. - -There was a device on the back side of the truck which was sort of a -gauge and a lever which I didn't understand what it was and I asked -Mr. Hall what that was, and he said it was an emergency brake in the -event something happened to the driver, that whoever was in the back of -the truck could pull that lever and stop the truck. We got these items -out of the truck and took them away, left the back doors of the truck -open to receive the prisoner, and then I went back down to the foot of -the ramp and waited, and in a few minutes shortly after the arrival of -the truck, Chief Stevenson came down, and this was, oh, nearly 11:30. -It was just a matter of minutes before--and told me of the change -of plans, and that they were going to send the truck in convoy down -through Elm Street, and that the car carrying---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean Main Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; Elm Street, and that the truck carrying Oswald -and a car of detectives would drop out of the convoy, out on Main -Street and drive down Main Street by themselves. In other words, the -truck was to be a decoy, and the lead car and all the other cars would -follow it on down Elm Street, while the car carrying the prisoner would -go down Main Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What security was there going to be? - -Chief BATCHELOR. We had moved the officers over from Elm Street to Main -Street on the corner. The only security would have been a car carrying -detectives, following the car carrying the prisoner and detectives. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How were the officers moved, by a radio dispatcher, or was -somebody sent out? - -Chief BATCHELOR. A sergeant was sent out, a three-wheeler. Talbert had -it done. I don't recall who did that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know at this point whether there was an -officer stationed at the corner of Main and Commerce? Main and Pearl -Expressway? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't know whether there was or not. - -(Short recess had.) - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't we state this for the record, that we have had -a recess and an off-the-record discussion between Mr. Griffin and -Chief Batchelor, and so that the record may be clear about where the -policemen who were to guard the route which was originally planned for -the transfer of Oswald, on the streets of the city of Dallas, I will -let Chief Batchelor at this time explain where they were originally to -be stationed, and where they were moved to. - -Chief BATCHELOR. They were originally stationed along Elm Street, and -later were moved to Main Street where the prisoner would actually go. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that before we took the recess that I was asking -you if at the time that you were down in the basement and examining the -armored car, you were aware that a man was or was not stationed at the -corner of Main and Pearl Expressway? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I do not know. I was not aware. I hadn't given that -any thought at the time. Actually, Main and Expressway would pose no -traffic problem of a turning movement, at that point, because Pearl -Expressway, which is a one-way street, and the convoy would have -been next to the curb, and it would pose no problem at this point, -trafficwise. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Chief Stevenson came downstairs and told you that the -route had been changed, where did he tell you that the caravan would -turn off Commerce Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. On Central Expressway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When it turned left on Central Expressway, where would it -next turn? - -Chief BATCHELOR. The convoy would go to Elm Street, but the prisoner -and a car of detectives would turn off at Main. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you discuss with him the reasoning behind this -decoy? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I merely asked him why the change, and he said they -decided to change it up in the Homicide Bureau in a discussion with -Chief Curry, because if anyone attacked, they would have the prisoner -in a car separate from the convoy and the public would not know this, -and they thought this would be a wise move. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you all were aware that the TV cameras were going to -be focusing on the car or the vehicle that Oswald was placed in, didn't -you? The people in the downtown streets wouldn't be able to see that, -but there were also newsmen down there who were broadcasting and they -would be able to tell people listening in on the radio what car? - -Chief BATCHELOR. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with -moving the prisoner. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't mean to argue with you, chief. - -Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't make the decision and I don't know whether it -was wise or not. It is a moot question now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, what next happened after you talked with Chief -Stevenson about this change in plan? - -Chief BATCHELOR. This happened when he told me about it, just moments -before they actually brought him down, and he told me they were -bringing a car up on the ramp, two cars up on the ramp, one to carry -the prisoner and one to carry the detectives. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back one bit here. You stated that you came -down. This one time you are talking about was an episode where you -went through the armored car, and this would have been your third trip -downstairs? - -Chief BATCHELOR. And my last one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And your last one. Now the first trip that you came -down the stairs was when you saw these reserve officers over by the -elevators? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Actually, that was the second trip down, I believe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been about what time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, probably 10 or 10:15, somewhere along in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So that the trip that we have been referring to -in the past, the 10:45 trip, is really most clearly distinguished by -the---- - -Chief BATCHELOR. I may be a little mixed up on my time, but the last -trip, the trip we are talking about when we searched the armored car -and put that in place, that was fairly close to the movement of the -prisoner, and I would say somewhere around 10:45 to 11 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that happened somewhere around 11:20? - -Chief BATCHELOR. About 10:45. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you never went back upstairs, from the time that you -moved your automobile up onto Commerce Street and the time that you -searched the armored car? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; Chief Stevenson did, but I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were downstairs from the time -that you walked down and moved your car out on the street and Oswald -arrived? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Possibly 30 minutes or 35. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after you finished examining the armored car and -you talked with Chief Stevenson, did you get a chance to look at the -placement of the news personnel, the news media people in the basement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Shortly before he came down, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now looking toward the Main Street ramp, how many rows -deep, if there was more than one row at all, were the policemen who -were blocking the Main Street ramp? - -Chief BATCHELOR. How many rows deep were the policemen? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm sorry, the news people, if you understand what I mean? - -Chief BATCHELOR. There was about, as I remember it, about two deep -along there. Some places there might have been a third man behind, but -most about two deep. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you come here and mark along the Main Street ramp -about how deep these people were? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] There weren't many along there because -there were cameras there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you estimate were in that area there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, there couldn't have been too many in that -particular area there. It is only 15 feet wide, maybe 20 or 25 in -there, maybe 30. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald was brought down, where were the -rest of the news people placed? - -Chief BATCHELOR. They were along here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is blocking the garage entrance? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many people would you say were in that area? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. Altogether there must have been, gee, -we had around 70 policemen in that basement altogether, and there must -have been 60 or 70 reporters and photographers and press people. They -were fairly deep across here. But this is wider and they were two or -three deep across there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark in there where you have indicated? - -Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks chart.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say that they were deeper across the entrance to -the garage than they were blocking the Main Street ramp, or were they -about the same? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I wasn't paying too close attention to how deep they -were. There was more than one line of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There was? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they were two to three deep across here [marking]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there police officers in there also? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; there was police officers intermingling all along -here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you given any instructions to the police officers up -to this point as to how they should stand in relationship, where they -should be facing? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after talking with Chief Stevenson, what next happened? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Almost immediately the car containing Lieutenant -Pierce and I believe Sergeant Maxey pulled out of here, and these -people had to step back, and they pulled out, and the detective cars -were pulled here in on the ramp and backed into position. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, at this point, just before Oswald was brought down, -were there any automobiles in the portion of the garage which would be -the north half of the garage, do you recall? - -Chief BATCHELOR. As I recall it, there were one or two vehicles parked -back in here, police vehicles. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were there any police vehicles, and if you don't -have any recollection, state that. Do you recall if there were any -police vehicles along the railing of the Main Street ramp? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. If there were, they were back from -this entrance. There weren't any in the immediate entrance to the jail -door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there were any people other than the -people manning these TV cameras, behind the railing? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that. I don't think there were, because -these people here went up to just about where the cameras were. This -curved a little bit around here. It wasn't just a straight line. It -would curve a little bit like this, then, but they were standing away -from the front of those cameras, because those cameras were on a tripod -at a level on the floor, which was lower than this ramp level. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as Pierce and Maxey's car went up the ramp, did you -watch it go up the ramp? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as it went up the ramp? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. I was up here. I was more concerned -with this truck here and getting this truck out of there when this -thing started. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch Pierce and Maxey's car go through the line -of newsmen? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I saw it. I wasn't---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you paying any attention? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Not particularly. I do remember seeing it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pierce and Maxey's car broke through the line of -newsmen, what do you remember next happening? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I remember backing these or pulling up these two -detective cars that were to carry Oswald, and one detective pulled up -here a little ways, and he had to pull up a little further so this one -could get up, and they then backed up. And this one had hardly gotten -in place, barely had stopped, when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, are you sure--how certain are you that -these two detective cars pulled out after Pierce and Maxey? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think Pierce and Maxey could have gotten out -with those two detective cars where they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sounds pretty good to me. - -Chief BATCHELOR. While they were in place, they couldn't have pulled -around here, because they were blocking this entrance here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who drove those two detective cars? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. Men out of the Homicide Bureau, but I -don't know which ones. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they listed in this report, do you recall? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think they are listed in that report. I am -pretty sure they are not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Detective Brown? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Where do you see that? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is on page 32. "Stevenson then proceeded across the -driveway to the entrance to the garage where Detective C. W. Brown, -driving one car, and Detective Dhority, driving the second car, was -preparing to pull the cars behind the armored car." Do you remember -Brown or Dhority walking to the cars in the basement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I wasn't directing my attention to them at the moment -they did that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know or have you heard whether they were sitting -in those cars for a long period of time, or a few minutes, or whether -they---- - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know, but I imagine so. I think they came down -for that express purpose, after this plan was changed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing as the rear car--that is, the car -closest to the exit from the jail office---- - -Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing over in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place an "X" on the map where you were standing? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I don't remember exactly where I was standing -at the time that they pulled those cars up, but I think I was standing -over here, and then moved to this position as they were backing in, -because I had been talking to Chief Stevenson just about that time, and -we were talking right up in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now at the time you heard the shots fired, would you -place on this map where these two automobiles were and where you were -standing? - -Chief BATCHELOR. One car was right here, approximately, and the other -car was ahead of it, and I am not drawing this in very good proportion, -but this is the order they were in, and I was standing, and this I know -in good order, because I was standing about midway of this thing, which -was along about the back fender of this car, that I was standing right -along here. But these cars were larger than that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you cross out that Ford car there and redraw it -up where it was? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing here, and this one was back here more -in this position. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put your name where you have made the circle? - -Chief BATCHELOR. (Marks on chart.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember what other officers or people were -around you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't remember who. There was a whole bunch of -people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened when you heard the shot fired? What did you -do? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, actually before the shot was fired, when I was -standing along here, and when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." I -started to go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on -it, the back doors so it could take off. And I turned to do that when I -heard the shot. I hadn't taken over a step or two over to the door when -he was shot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and looked back and came over there. -There was a whole group of people had him down. It was a big---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby down? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Had Ruby down. They had pulled Oswald into the jail -office, and then pulled Ruby in behind him. - -I went into the jail office to look at them, and they had Ruby down on -the floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's focus on the time when they had Ruby down on the -ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. Where did you stand at -that point? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I stood off in the crowd. I didn't even see what was -going on. There was such a crowd. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Ruby say anything at that point? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not when I walked right up there to it. But -I did hear someone shout, "Jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was -before they got him down. I mean, this was almost simultaneous with the -shot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow Ruby and Oswald into the jail office then? - -Chief BATCHELOR. After a little bit, a minute or two after, I remained -in the jail office and asked Lieutenant Wiggins if they had called an -ambulance, and he said they had. - -I walked over and looked at Oswald, and this intern had come in and was -giving him some pressure on his lower rib section. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Ruby at that time? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I saw him on the floor. I couldn't see him too well. -There was several men on top. He was still struggling in the jail -office, but they had already gotten the gun away from him and they were -trying to get him handcuffed and get him down and laying still, but he -was fighting them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't recall anything he said. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the officers say anything to him? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Just a few minutes. The ambulance came almost -immediately. It was just--I walked out of there before the ambulance -came and walked back. Someone shouted right after this happened, and -there was a lot of confusion, and someone shouted, "Don't let anybody -out." - -There were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were -frightened. I suppose they were running to telephones, but they tried -to run up the Main Street ramp, and I remember very clearly the officer -at the top of the ramp pulling his gun and said, "Get back down." - -They turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped -through the corridor. Not out the ramp, but went out through the -corridor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the corridor that leads from the record room to -Commerce Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Well, yes. They escaped out the corridor off the -hallway that leads in front of the jail office into the Records Bureau, -and then to Commerce Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they escape out Commerce Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know where they went from there, whether they -went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. But there -would have been nobody over there that heard the command not to let -them out. This was kind of a spontaneous command. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What percentage of people would you say got out of the -basement? News media people got out of the basement that way? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. They scattered pretty quickly. Still a -lot hung around after it was over. I would say half, at least, got out -that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken -upstairs in the elevator? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Was I in the jail office when he was taken upstairs? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I went as soon as the ambulance came and got him, -I ran up the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that -it was blocking the entrance to the ramp, and then I left and went -upstairs and told Chief Curry what happened. By the time I got up -there, somebody called him and he knew what happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do next? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Lord, I don't remember what I did next. We sat there -kind of dumbfounded for a while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time during the rest of the day when you -talked with Ruby? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I never did talk with Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come in -about how Ruby got down into the basement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. In the course of the next day or two we heard lots of -rumors that he had a press card. This was the prevailing rumor, that he -had a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly -close after the time of, the time Oswald was shot. What did you do -in connection with attempting to find out how Ruby got down in that -basement? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know that I did anything specifically to -try to find that out. We began to think in terms of an overall -investigation into the matter. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Curry convene any sort of meeting or gather -together any of the top officers to discuss this? - -Chief BATCHELOR. He discussed it with Lumpkin and Stevenson and I. I -don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just--I am -sure it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there -were obvious things that would take place first, and that would be the -investigation, that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of Ruby -himself. - -We even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had -borrowed money from a bank and Ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we -ran a check at every bank in Dallas, but the banks where this--the most -probable one was the Republic Bank. We ran a check there by sending -the name of everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and -having them check for us and see if they had any notes on these people. - -We also checked with, I believe, the Mercantile, and we checked with -the Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Co., because Ruby happened to live out in -that area. - -We didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found -anything to date. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This meeting or a little conference that you referred to -that you and Curry and Lumpkin and Stevenson had, about how long after -Oswald was shot did this occur? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't remember whether that was that day or the next -day, but it resulted in Chief Curry pulling some men out of the special -service division with Captain Jones in charge, and we had about six men -on the team besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this, -which was in terms of locating all of the people that were assigned -down there, locating as many of the press as they knew were down -there, and getting statements from all of these people. Then also we -discovered this matter of this money order, and we followed that thing -out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you personally talk with Officer Dean at any time on -the Sunday that Oswald was shot? After Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk -to Dean? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Dean said something to me, and I don't remember -whether it was Sunday or not. I believe it was Sunday afternoon, -sometime, or evening, to the effect that he had been up and talked to -Ruby with Mr. Sorrels, I believe was present there, and that Ruby told -him he came down that ramp. - -He told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped -and talked with the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to -them, he walked down there. - -There is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers -that went out other than maybe to speak to them. I mean, but it appears -evident now that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet -from the entrance is when he got in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Dean made this statement to you, did you know that he -had spoken to a newspaper reporter also? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this conversation you had with Dean -was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the -name of Newman that day? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to talk to Officer Vaughn on that -day? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; over on top of the ramp? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; as a matter of fact, I never have talked with -Vaughn. And I wasn't talking to Dean in the nature of interrogating. He -voluntarily told me this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present when Dean told you that? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that there was. I don't think there was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this conversation occurred? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was there in the city hall, but I don't -remember exactly where. It was probably up on the third floor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to mark for identification, "Dallas, Tex., -Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5002." - -Can you tell us briefly what that is, Chief? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which -has the names of all the members of the police department in it and -their assignments for the month of November 1963. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were -employed in the department on the day that Ruby shot Oswald? - -Chief BATCHELOR. It would be, with the exception of any few that might -have been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the -month, been transferred from one division to another, which occurs -frequently. But for the most part it is correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or, also a few that had been hired? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Or a few that had been hired during that month. They -are not on there; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have spoken at some length during the last -day, not counting the length of time we spent here. Do you recall that -in your office this morning we talked some about security measures in -the protection of the President? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any suggestions that you would make as to how, -as a result of your experience, you think the President might be more -effectively protected? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know how you would correct this exactly. One -of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a -short time to do some of the planning that we had. - -We didn't know until just one afternoon, actually, in terms of Love -Field security, actually where the President's plane would be placed. - -We didn't know until 2 days before his arrival what the parade route -would be. This posed some problem in terms of assignment of personnel -and properly instructing personnel as to what their procedures should -be. - -I think one thing that would be helpful would be for a standard general -procedure of things that those responsible for protection of the -President could put out to police departments such as certain standard -types of coverage that would always apply. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any example from your own experience where -this would have been useful on this unfortunate trip? - -Chief BATCHELOR. One thing you need in a situation like this is -explicit written instructions to officers as to such things as watching -the crowd rather than the President. - -This is a general accepted thing in most police departments. - -Sometimes you have new personnel that comes in and they need to be -told this specifically. We had an instance in which we were asked to -guard all of the overpasses, railroad and vehicular, and we instructed -the officers verbally that they were to let no unauthorized personnel -on these overpasses. But there was no definition of what "authorized -personnel" was. - -And in one case, there were people on an overpass which the President -had never reached. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the triple railroad overpass at the base of Elm -Street? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they would have just gone under, or would have -gone under momentarily had he not been shot. - -There were a number of railroad track workers on this overpass, and -we had officers up there, but they considered them to be authorized -personnel because they worked for the railroad, and they were all lined -along there watching for the parade which never did go under them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many persons do you remember having been up there? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I was not there. I heard about it. I understand there -were probably 10 or 12 people up there. But actually, there should -be nobody over the immediate route the President goes under. But -there are certainly, there seems to me, certain generally accepted -procedures that, and certain general types of security that every -police department ought to be aware of, that is standard operating -procedure, plus whatever specific thing that the various circumstances -might want done; some sort of suggested procedure on their part, with -it published, that might be helpful to police organizations. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go off the record here a moment. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go on the record on this. - -We have been speaking off the record about other suggestions which -Chief Batchelor has, and one of the things that he has pointed out -is that there is not enough advance notice of what the Presidential -route is going to be to enable the police department to satisfactorily -handle the administrative problems of selecting people to place them at -particular intersections. - -Do you want to add any more to that statement that I have made of what -you have just told me? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No. I realize there is another aspect on this too, -on the part of the Secret Service, that they want, that is, that they -don't want too much advance notice to the public. This is the reason I -am not criticizing. - -(Further discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go on the record and ask you a question here. Do -you think, Chief, it would have been possible to station people in the -middle of the downtown block with the instructions to watch various -buildings in a periphery of their vision. - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. This would be feasible. We did have men in the -middle of the downtown, several of them in each block, they were -primarily watching the crowd of people rather than the windows. - -When you are in an area of skyscrapers and you are standing right at -the foot of these skyscrapers, you couldn't see windows too far up more -than just a few floors, but we did have men in the middle of the block, -but they weren't instructed to watch the windows as much as they were -to watch the people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these men actually have any specific instructions as -to how they were to go about watching the people or the windows? - -Chief BATCHELOR. We had experienced detectives down there in the -immediate block watching in the crowd and then we had some reservists, -too, and we had instructed our people in the course of training that -when somebody comes by, that you are supposed to secure, that you are -not supposed to watch that person, but supposed to watch the crowd. - -Whether all of them remember this or not--when you don't get a -President here but every number of years, why you don't know. That is -the reason I think that in some places where they have these kind of -people frequently, this is probably routine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have men stationed in the neighborhood of Elm -and Houston and the School Book Depository that were instructed to be -watching the crowds? - -Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't think anyone was stationed below -Houston Street. At that point, I don't know whether any crowd along -that particular point was even anticipated or not. It was away from the -business section and it was not any buildings on either side of the -street there, actually. - -The School Book Depository faces on Elm Street, which is parallel to -the Elm Street ramp that goes under the triple underpass. - -It is a couple of hundred feet across from the street to that Building -and there wasn't anybody placed down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall that there was a police car stationed -either along Elm Street or Houston near that intersection? - -Chief BATCHELOR. There was a police car that preceded the two of them, -as a matter of fact, that preceded the Presidential convoy. One was a -quarter of a mile ahead and one was back of that one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am referring to a stationary car at the intersection. - -Chief BATCHELOR. No; there wasn't one, that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, I think that is it. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR RESUMED - -The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 12:30 -p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post -Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Leon D. -Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, I think that you made a deposition before -Burt Griffin, a member of the advisory staff of the President's -Commission, now on March 23, 1964, is that not a fact, sir? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think also that you have now read the transcript of that -deposition and that you have made certain corrections of typographical -errors in pen and ink and by initialing those. You advise me now that -you are willing to sign the deposition except that there are two -statements, one on page 199, and one on page 219, that you wish to -clarify, or change; is that correct? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now chief, are you willing to consider this deposition as a -continuation of the deposition taken by Mr. Griffin on the 23d? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing also to waive any notices that you would be -entitled to before we begin this continuation of the deposition? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider yourself to be under the same oath that you -were at the time you made the deposition before Mr. Griffin? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, I understand that you wish to comment, -or change the following: On page 199, lines 9 and 10 read as follows: - -"Chief BATCHELOR. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with -moving the prisoner." - -Now, Chief, what do you say about what I have just read? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That statement was inadvertently incorrect. I wished -to say that I had nothing to do with changing the plans of moving the -prisoner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to page 219, we find that lines 11 through 14 -read as follows, to wit: - -"I don't know how you would correct this exactly. 'One of the problems -that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do -some of planning that we did'". - -Do you wish to make a comment about that statement, sir? - -Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall the exact language I used in the -statement, but the sentence is grammatically incorrect. It should read: - -"One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that we had such -a short time to do some of the planning that we had to do." - -Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, Chief, have you found that the -transcription of your deposition is correct? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Then, when these notes concerning the -corrections have been typed out I think you will be in a position to -sign the original deposition, now, making a notation that you signed it -approving all except such as has been corrected this morning? - -Chief BATCHELOR. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then you will also sign the second deposition, as it -were, which is this morning's deposition? - -Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHIEF JESSE E. CURRY - -The testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April -15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Jesse E. Curry of the Dallas -Police Department. - -Mr. Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under -the provisions of Executive Order of the President, No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and -the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission and in -conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have -been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Curry. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular, as to you, Mr. Curry, the nature of the inquiry today -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the -security of Oswald, the transfer of Oswald, and so forth. - -Now, Mr. Curry, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of an -informal request---- - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. By the Commission's General Counsel to appear here. It is -my duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, -every witness who appears before the Commission is entitled to a 3-day -written notice before his deposition can be taken. The rules also -provide, however, that the 3-day written notice can be waived if a -witness wishes to waive it and go ahead and testify, so I ask you now -if you are ready and willing to testify now and are willing to waive -the 3-day notice? - -Mr. CURRY. I am. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be -sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before -the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CURRY. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name? - -Mr. CURRY. Jesse Edward Curry. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please, sir? - -Mr. CURRY. Fifty years of age. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? - -Mr. CURRY. 2508 Loving Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. Dallas? - -Mr. CURRY. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Chief? - -Mr. CURRY. Chief of Police, Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been occupying that position? - -Mr. CURRY. Since January 20, 1960. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department -altogether? - -Mr. CURRY. Since May 1, 1936. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how did you begin? - -Mr. CURRY. I began, I believe, as a traffic police officer--well, I -worked in a squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a -traffic officer for several months. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old were you when you began? - -Mr. CURRY. Twenty-three--I lacked a few months being twenty-three. - -Mr. HUBERT. What education have you, Chief? - -Mr. CURRY. I graduated from the Dallas high schools--Dallas Technical -High School. I did not go to college. I studied a short time--optometry -a short time after that, after graduating from high school. - -Mr. HUBERT. What employment did you have between leaving high school -and joining the police force? - -Mr. CURRY. I worked a short time for Vitalic Battery Co., as I recall, -and at the time I entered the police field, I owned a small cleaning -and pressing shop out in East Dallas, which I owned and operated. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you married? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I am. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have a family? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state who they are, how many children? - -Mr. CURRY. I have three step-children--no, it's two step-children, one -son of my own and one daughter of my own. - -Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of -Dallas? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I moved here when I was less than a year old. - -Mr. HUBERT. It appears to me from what you have said that you began at -the bottom of the ranks in the police department? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And would it be fair to say that you worked your way -through, as it were? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Up the line? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I worked in practically every assignment the -police department has, and through civil service examinations was able -to gain promotions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police, -captain of police, inspector of police, and inspector of police is the -highest civil service rank obtainable. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you attain that rank, Mr. Curry, roughly? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 1951, along about that as -inspector--I don't recall exactly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system -involve special studies? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, you must make some special studies in order to -compete with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through -examination. During these years I won a fellowship to Northwestern -University Traffic Institute and attended that school in 1945-46. I -graduated from there. In 1951 I was sent to the FBI National Academy in -Washington, D.C., and I graduated from that school. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions -you have attended. - -Mr. CURRY. Well, I've been to several schools conducted in the Dallas -area. I have been to 2 weeks training school by the department of -public safety in Austin. I have been to several schools conducted by -Southern Methodist University and the FBI here in the Dallas area -through the years. I have also taken correspondence training courses -from the City Managers' Association, and I believe that's about the -extent of my training. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in service during the war, sir? - -Mr. CURRY. I was in what was called the CPA, Civilian Pilot Training. -It was a program that was open to people who were over combat age--in -the Air Force. We did not receive any pay when we first went in. We -volunteered our services and we were taught to fly. We attended ground -training school; I was assigned to Gainesville Junior College and flew -out of Gainesville, out of the airfield there. I was then sent to TCU -in Fort Worth where I continued my studies at TCU and flew out of -Meacham Field, and then I was sent to Amarillo Air Force Base. We were -not on the base, but we were assigned in that area and we waited there -for, it seemed to me like 2 or 3 weeks and never received any training. -We were then notified that we had an opportunity to either ask for -release or discharge from the service because we understood--because of -an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be sent -to various branches of the Air Force for various assignments. - -At that time, I, along with my buddy whose father advised us that he -thought it was best for us to get out--we applied for a discharge, and -I was discharged, so I was in this about 11 months, at which time I was -discharged and I returned to Dallas and I reported back to my draft -board, and that's the last contact that I had with my draft board. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you went back to your duties? - -Mr. CURRY. I went back to my duties as police officer. I was assigned -as a detective at the time, and I worked for undercover a few months; -I was then assigned as a sergeant in the traffic division; promoted to -lieutenant of the traffic division; subsequently promoted to captain of -the traffic division. I was then assigned to a police training school. -I attended the FBI school then. - -Upon my return from the FBI school, I completed an examination for -promotion to inspector of police and was able to obtain the No. 1 -position and was promoted to inspector of police, and assigned to the -police training school. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, that examination and that promotion was civil service? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Under the laws of Texas? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And perhaps it would be better if you would just continue -testifying--to tell us the various stages. - -Mr. CURRY. I was assigned to the various training schools, had charge -of the police training, and also personnel investigation. I was then -appointed assistant chief of police in charge, which assignment is -actually the second in command of the police department--that was in -October of 1953. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, that is a non-civil-service position? - -Mr. CURRY. That's an appointive job. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who appointed you to that job? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, the chief appointed me, I'm sure, on the approval of -the city manager. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was the chief at that time? - -Mr. CURRY. Carl F. Hansson [spelling], H-a-n-s-s-o-n. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on. - -Mr. CURRY. I served in that capacity until Chief Hansson resigned, and -at that time I was appointed chief of police. I was appointed acting -chief of police in December and when his name was removed from the -rolls in January 1960, I was appointed chief of police. - -Mr. HUBERT. He resigned voluntarily? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it because of old age? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know exactly why he resigned. He left us to go -as executive secretary of the Citizens Traffic Commission here in -Dallas, and he served in that capacity for some year or so and resigned -from that capacity, and then he went as chief of the Mesquite Police -Department and remained there a year or two and at the present time is -in an advisory capacity at Richardson, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were second in command at the time you were -appointed chief of police? - -Mr. CURRY. That's true. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had been actually for some time? - -Mr. CURRY. About 7 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was the city manager who appointed you? - -Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull, I believe he was at the time I was appointed. -He was when I was appointed chief of police, because I recall--I -don't recall exactly who was city manager at the time I was appointed -assistant chief. I believe Chuck Ford, I believe, was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, as you said, the assistant chief of police and -the chief of police, are non-civil service? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you still maintain civil service status in the event of -a reduction? - -Mr. CURRY. In a reduction? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. CURRY. In rank; you are supposed to return to the rank where you -were when appointed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you, of course, as chief of police, have under you a -number of assistant and deputy chiefs of police and then captains of -the various divisions and so forth. Who made those appointments? - -Mr. CURRY. They are under civil service except for the assistant chief -and the deputy chiefs and I make those appointments. - -Mr. HUBERT. You made those appointments? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now, I didn't make all the appointments, because some -of them were in those positions when I was appointed chief. I appointed -Batchelor as assistant chief of police and I appointed Fisher, who is -in charge of radio patrol, as deputy chief of police, and I think the -rest of them were in their positions when I was made chief and I left -them there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had the authority to move them, I take it, but you -chose to leave them there? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, everybody else was in his position by -virtue of civil service? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the time when -the Dallas Police Department first arrested Oswald, and, I assume, -became responsible for him and for his security. I believe that it was -that he was arrested at the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And almost immediately moved to the Dallas Police -Department offices? - -Mr. CURRY. So I understand; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that -point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative -fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait -until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what -we want to know is what you know about the whole thing. - -Mr. CURRY. Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the -Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and -Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and -we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, -and which is near Stemmons Expressway--it was necessary for us to move -to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the -President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to -have a luncheon. - -I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, -and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, -whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more -reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw -some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably -something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this -time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up -beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, -"Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." - -So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the -nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland -Hospital and they were--the President, the Vice President and the -Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital -for--oh--some hour or so. - -At about 1:15 that day--this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so, -and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot, -and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the -hospital. - -At that time we didn't know who shot him. I was just told it was in -Oak Cliff. I was still at the hospital at this time and I was told by -some of the Secret Service people, I don't recall who, to get my car -ready and another car ready to take the President--we were informed -that President Kennedy had expired--and we were asked to have two -automobiles standing by to take President Johnson to Love Field. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me stop you and ask you this: When you had the news of -the death of Tippit, or the shooting of Tippit, did you associate that -in any way with the President's assassination? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go on. - -Mr. CURRY. In a little while President Johnson came out, and some of -his aides, and got into my car and some of his other people came and -got into another vehicle driven by Inspector Putnam of the Dallas -Police Department, and we were instructed to go to Love Field, to -get there by the nearest route with the least amount of noise, but -to go there as quickly as we could. So I drove to Love Field and -the President got out of the car with his group and went aboard the -Presidential plane. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any idea about what time you left the hospital -to go to Love Field? - -Mr. CURRY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the -time you arrived there? - -Mr. CURRY. It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital--30 -minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12:30, so that -would have been around a little after 1:15, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was a little after 1:15 that you started to move to Love -Field? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you know Jack Ruby prior to that time? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen him? - -Mr. CURRY. If I had ever seen him, I didn't know it. I might have seen -him but I didn't recognize him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, now, you know who Jack Ruby is; you have seen -him? - -Mr. CURRY. I have seen him in the courtroom. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether or not among any of the people that -you saw at the hospital anywhere, whether Jack Ruby was at the hospital? - -Mr. CURRY. If he was, I didn't know it. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's what I'm asking--you didn't see the man that you now -know to be Jack Ruby? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reporter from the Washington, D.C., newspaper -who is called Seth Kantor? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe he used to be in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. I believe he was, and moved on to Washington. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him out there? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall who all I saw out there--I saw a number of -people out there. If I saw him, I don't recall it. I very easily could -have seen him out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it follows from what you said before, of course, that -you did not see Kantor with Ruby? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, let's go back then to the point we left off, and that -is to say--the arrival at Love Field. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we arrived at Love Field with the President and -his party and they got out of the car and got on the plane. - -I was informed by someone a little later that Judge Sarah Hughes was -coming out to swear in the President, to give him the oath of office, -and we stood by and when she arrived I escorted her onto the plane and -into the presence of the President and was there while she gave to him -the oath of office. Immediately after he was given the oath of office, -as I recall it, the President said, "Let's get out of here." And I left -the plane with Judge Sarah Hughes and returned to my car and in the -meantime while we were at Love Field, Mrs. Kennedy and some others came -and they loaded the casket onto the plane and she went into the plane. -After I got off the plane, I talked to Mrs. Cabell and to Mayor Cabell -and I waited until the planes left Love Field, and then I went to the -city hall. - -Now, as best I recall, it was probably around 4 o'clock when I got -to the city hall, and I started to my office on the third floor, and -when I got off of the elevator there I could see that there was just -pandemonium on the third floor. There was dozens and dozens of newsmen -just crammed into the north end of the corridor. There were television -cables running from down the halls, from the administrative office, and -I went to my office and talked with some of my staff--I don't recall -who all was in there at the time--about what was going on, and I was -told by someone, I believe Chief Stevenson that they had a man named -Oswald whom they believed to be the murderer of Officer Tippit, and -they had been questioning him in Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they advise you at that time, or did they know to your -knowledge that he was also a suspect in regard to the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -Mr. CURRY. Someone mentioned that he was also a strong suspect in the -assassination of the President. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was at that same time? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you got back there? - -Mr. CURRY. After I returned from Love Field. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Captain Fritz was carrying on the -interrogation? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; that's his responsibility, to investigate murders, -robberies, and rapes, and extortions and things of that kind. - -Mr. HUBERT. It's fair to say, then, that the interrogation of Oswald -with respect to either the death of Tippit or of President Kennedy was -in accordance with the normal procedures of the department? - -Mr. CURRY. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had Captain Fritz been in that position, sir? - -Mr. CURRY. A number of years--I don't recall exactly when he was -appointed to his position with the homicide division--probably 15 years -anyway. - -I had received a call from the FBI or someone in the FBI, I don't -recall whether it was Shanklin or who, and they were requesting that a -representative of their Bureau be allowed to be present when Oswald was -interviewed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you agree to that? - -Mr. CURRY. I called Fritz in his office and told him we had this -request, and Fritz said, "Okay; we'll let them in." - -At that time I understood there was a representative from Secret -Service already in the room and the representative from the FBI went -in--one or two FBI representatives. - -It was some time before I ever went to the homicide office myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any message around that time or a little -later relayed to you as it were, through FBI agents, that Mr. J. Edgar -Hoover, the head of the FBI, wanted you to know of his concern about -Oswald's security? - -Mr. CURRY. Specifically, I don't remember anyone coming to me and -telling me that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see--I think the last statement you made -was that it was sometime before you actually went to Fritz' office -yourself. Is there anything that happened of significance or that you -want to put in the record with reference to what happened between the -time you got there around a little after 4 and the time you did get in -to see Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I wasn't particularly interested in seeing him -or interfering with the investigation in any way. I stayed up in the -administrative offices most of the time. I had a number of calls from -various people, I don't recall just who all I talked to. I conferred -with some of my staff during that time and I was kept informed of the -progress of the investigation. - -Mr. HUBERT. How were you kept informed? - -Mr. CURRY. Usually through Chief Stevenson. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would move from Captain Fritz' -office---- - -Mr. CURRY. Either by telephone or go down to the office and talk to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. CURRY. Well, nothing of significance that I can recall occurred. -Later in the evening someone told me that they had enough evidence that -he had been identified as the slayer of our police officer. - -Captain Fritz thought he had better go ahead and file on him and I -think it was about 7:30 on the day they did file on him, and I think he -had been down--had been to the showup a time or two--there were some -witnesses who had identified him, so I was told, as being the man who -shot Tippit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald then, or when was the first time you saw -him? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the first time I saw him, but I -believe it was in the evening--in the early evening. When I did see him -I remember that he impressed me as being a sullen, arrogant individual, -and he didn't seem particularly perturbed with the fact that he was -being interrogated or that he was causing such a commotion--he was -pretty cool. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't question him yourself, did you? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, he was filed upon about 7:30 with respect to Tippit? - -Mr. CURRY. Somewhere around in there--I don't know exactly when it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. CURRY. Then, after he was filed on for this offense, I believe -it was Captain Fritz who told me that they were working now on the -possibility that he was the same suspect or the assassin of the -President, and they began to, when I say "they" I mean Captain Fritz, -principally, told me of some of the evidence that was piling up against -him. In fact, he told me that he worked in this Building and that that -morning he had carried a package into the Building. - -Mr. HUBERT. This information was being relayed to you? - -Mr. CURRY. Relayed to me by Fritz--just summing up what they found out -about him. He told me that, as I recall, he told me that Oswald had -been in the Building on this day and that one of the Negro porters -had seen him go to the sixth floor, I believe, at lunch time, and -that after the shooting, some of our officers went into the Building -and they saw Oswald at a lunch counter or in the recreation room -and started to approach him or question him and they were told by -Mr. Truly, who is the Building manager, that this was one of their -employees, and I think the officer passed him on up and went on -upstairs to try to determine where these shots came from. - -In the meantime, I believe Inspector Sawyer was several blocks away -from there, from that location, and when he heard what was happening, -he immediately went to the location to take over all security and -searching there. - -Chief Lumpkin and some of his party went on to Love Field with me -and they went back to the Texas School Book Depository. So, several -minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting until anyone could have -gotten--any officers could have gotten actually to the Building. - -As soon as it was feasible or possible, they did seal off this Building -and also that they had checked all of the employees of the Building and -found out that there was one missing, and I think this is when they -suspected him of being involved in the fatal shooting of the President, -and from the description, I believe they began to tie the two suspects -together--the suspect of the shooting of the officer, and all this was -told to me by people of the homicide bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, when we last talked about Oswald, I think it was when -he was being charged with respect to Tippit, and then I gather that the -information you are giving us now is the background for charging him as -the assassin of President Kennedy? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were aware of that too--you were still in the -Building? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a meeting--it has sometimes been called a -showup or a lineup--I don't know that that is accurate, but it took -place in the assembly room. - -Mr. CURRY. And some of the members of the press were there, yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell us what that was about? About what time? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the time it was--it was in the -evening, sometime after they had interrogated, I think, Oswald. I think -he had been in the showup once or twice previous to this for witnesses -to observe him, and there were so many newsmen in the halls that they -were not all of them able to see or to get any pictures or any thing -else in the north corridor of the third floor, and some of them asked -me to--sometime during the evening--when they could see Oswald, how -does he look, can we see him? - -At this time Henry Wade, the district attorney, was up there and -Alexander was up there. - -Mr. HUBERT. He is the assistant district attorney? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; and something was said about--how about letting us see -him or could we see him? - -Mr. HUBERT. That was said by Wade or Alexander or by the newsmen? - -Mr. CURRY. By the newsmen. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the presence of Wade and Alexander? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; as I recall it, I asked Henry Wade, "Do you see -anything wrong with it," and as I recall, he told me, "Not that I know -of, I don't see anything wrong with it." And, so, we told them if they -would go to the assembly room that we would let them see Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is the assembly room located on another floor? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, in the basement; we were on the third floor. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the assembly room is in effect--it is a room, as I -recall it, that might seat 50 or 75 people? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it has a little stage with the usual showup apparatus? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there is gauze in front of the prisoners, -so that the audience can see them, but the prisoners can't look out. -And there are markings on it as to height and their numbers? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's the room we are talking about? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, that's the room he was taken to. He was not put on the -stage, he was just put in front of the stage for the showup. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was not put behind the gauze? - -Mr. CURRY. Not this time, I think he was on previous occasions. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; when there was a real lineup for identification? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But this was not an identification lineup? - -Mr. CURRY. No; it was the news media clamoring to see him, and they -wanted to know when they could look at him or when they could observe -him, and on the third floor when he was brought to and from the -interrogation room, which was Captain Fritz' office, they had to go -about 20 or 25 feet, and they almost mobbed him every time they would -bring him through. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are saying they had to go about 20 or 25 feet to get to -the elevator? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the inside elevator, not the public elevator? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. It's the inside elevator---- - -Mr. CURRY. The prisoners' elevator. - -Mr. HUBERT. That leads all of the police department down into the -basement into the jail? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go ahead. - -Mr. CURRY. So, we warned them not to try to interfere with him or -anything else and we would let them see him. We did take him down and -let them briefly see him--this was just a very short time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you present then? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who else was present, among the police officers you recall? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't recall--I think Fritz was--I don't know that he was -in the room, and there was a couple of detectives who brought the -suspect in. Henry Wade and Alexander were in the vicinity--they were -not right there with me, so when we brought him in, the news media -started then to trying to talk to him and he was only there for a few -seconds and we removed him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see, during the time you were in the assembly room -that you have just been speaking about, the man you now know as Jack -Ruby in that room? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. I understood he was there, but I didn't -see him, and would not have known him had I seen him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, that's correct, but now that you do know him? - -Mr. CURRY. I didn't recognize him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't recognize him? - -Mr. CURRY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your present memory doesn't associate the man you now know -as Jack Ruby with being in that room? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell us why Oswald was moved for the purpose -of charging him in the case of Tippit, and subsequently in the case of -the President? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know in the case of Tippit. I wasn't there. I -mean, I wasn't present when he was charged, but he was charged with -the murder of the President--he was charged in the lobby of the -identification bureau, which is on the fourth floor of the police -department, and he was brought out of the jail into the identification -bureau and the charge was read to him by Judge David Johnston. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is what security measures were -observed with reference to him during the time that he was moved -through these crowds of people? - -Mr. CURRY. Officers surrounded him. We had officers in front and in the -back and by the side of him as he was moving--usually two detectives, -two or three uniformed officers, when he moved through the crowds. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand you said that there was a huge crowd on the -third floor? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I would take it that there was a rather large crowd in -the assembly room? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; there were several--a good many there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that other than on the third floor, when -he was being moved and when he was in the assembly room, he was not -exposed in any way? - -Mr. CURRY. No; he was not. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there were no persons around him but police -then? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he was moved through the hall, however many times -he was at the third floor--of course, you had this mob of newsmen and -there were a group of newsmen in the assembly room? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at--what security measures were taken, -if you know, with respect to who was in that crowd of newsmen of the -people in the assembly room? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know, other than on the third floor. I know that -there was some police reservists and a police sergeant who was -screening people who came up on the third floor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, how would they screen them? - -Mr. CURRY. As they got off of the elevator, I would observe that they -would check them, apparently asking for identification. - -Mr. HUBERT. The elevator would be the only way to get up there? - -Mr. CURRY. The stairway, they could get up the stairway. The officers -were so located that had someone come up the stairway they would have -seen them too. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the officers checking the elevator could -also check the staircase? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether any instructions had been given to -those officers? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my knowledge, but I observed them checking -the people who came in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whose responsibility would it have been to post those -officers for the purpose of checking there? - -Mr. CURRY. Usually the captain on duty in that building--that would -have been Captain Talbert, I believe, but it could have been someone -else. Had they observed the need for it, they could have issued orders -to get someone else. - -Mr. HUBERT. Obviously, someone must have posted two men there? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you have in the department any standard -operative procedures to cover a situation like that? - -Mr. CURRY. Not exactly this type incident. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, in any case, you observed that that was a security -check going on? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is the same thing approximately true about the group that -was in the assembly room when Oswald was brought down? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, now, I don't know that they were all checked as they -went into the assembly room. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any instructions about the security of Oswald -there? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I just told them to keep the newsmen--and I told the -newsmen they would have to stay back inside the confines of the room -and not approach the prisoner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way--generally speaking, did you give -any specific instructions regarding the security of Oswald, during that -period we are talking about? - -Mr. CURRY. No, not this period--no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what system of checking for identification was -being used by the officers on the third floor guarding the elevator and -staircase? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my own knowledge. I could see them checking -the people to see whether they were up to do police business or whether -they were newsmen trying to cover the incident. We were carrying on -the normal business we would conduct, and this would bring a great -many people to the third floor, relatives of prisoners, complainants, -various people that would come to the other bureaus. - -Mr. HUBERT. Normally, there would be no police checking those two -elevators? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that, I suppose it is fair to state, isn't it, that the -main function of that check was to keep curiosity seekers out of the -way? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right--that's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And to check also to see if anybody had any legitimate -business there? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think we can just continue on then. - -Mr. CURRY. Well, after Oswald was arraigned, I went back to my -office--I went home a little while after that and that was, I believe, -Saturday night. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; that would be Friday night. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; Friday night, yes; and Saturday morning I came -down to the office and I don't remember any particular outstanding -incident that occurred during the day. It was a rather routine -investigation--there continued the investigation from the homicide -division section on the murder of the President. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the crowd of newspapermen still there? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were the security measures you have described still in -force? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was neither more nor less? - -Mr. CURRY. It was about the same. I had several conferences during the -day with various staff members and I was kept informed of the progress -of the investigation. Late that evening, the different members of -the press, news media, began to ask me when we were going to transfer -Oswald because he had been filed on, and I told them I didn't know, -that this was something that would be left up to Captain Fritz because -he was conducting the investigation and the interrogation, and usually -he would be the one to determine when he was ready to transfer the -prisoner. - -Mr. HUBERT. When a prisoner is formally charged, as Oswald had been, -what is the normal procedure to transfer the prisoner to the State -prison? - -Mr. CURRY. There are two ways it is done. Sometimes the bureau -transfers the person to the sheriff's office, and sometimes the -sheriff's office sends up and gets them. - -Mr. HUBERT. And either type is usual? - -Mr. CURRY. Either one is acceptable. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had Decker made any request to you to deliver what, in -effect, was his prisoner? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at this time. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, on Saturday night, that would be the 23d, you were -asked, I think, by the newsmen? - -Mr. CURRY. When we were going to transfer him and I told them I didn't -know. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on from there. - -Mr. CURRY. And some of them asked if "They are going to transfer him -tonight?" And I said, "I don't think so." Then, I talked to Fritz -about when he thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't -think it was a good idea to transfer him at night because of the fact -you couldn't see, and if anybody tried to cause them any trouble, -they needed to see who they were and where it was coming from and so -forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, so this was normal -procedure, I mean, for Fritz to determine when he is going to transfer -his prisoners, so I told him, "Okay." I asked him, I said, "What time -do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" And he didn't know exactly -and I said, "Do you think about 10 o'clock," and he said, "I believe -so," and then is when I went out and told the newspaper people, the -news media that we were not going to transfer him that night and some -of them asked, "When should we be back, when are you going to transfer -him?" And I said, "I don't know," because I didn't know when we were -going to transfer him. Some of them said, "When should we back?" I made -the remark then, "I believe if you are back here by 10 o'clock you will -be back in time to observe anything you care to observe." - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether on Saturday night any plans had -been made for the transfer? - -Mr. CURRY. Not on Saturday night, I don't believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, you went home? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, let's pick up with the 24th. - -Mr. CURRY. On Sunday morning, I came down to the office, and, as I -recall, it was probably 8:30 or 8:45 when I got to the office, and as -I parked my car in the basement of the city hall and started up to -our office, I noticed that a large camera had been set up out in the -hallway between the jail office and the end of the corridor immediately -in front of the jail office, and it was in the way of traffic, and -Lieutenant Wiggins came out and I told him--I told Lieutenant Wiggins, -I said, "You are going to have to move this camera out of here," and -then I told Wiggins, I said, "Now, if the news media come down here and -want in, put them over behind the rail." There is a rail separating -the ramp that comes down in the basement from the parking area. There -were two cars in there, I believe a patrol wagon and a squad car and I -told him to move those vehicles out and if the news media came down and -wanted to observe from the basement, that they were to be placed back -over in this area. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state, then, that in your own mind, you had -determined that the way to move him was through the basement area? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. I believe about this--Chief Stevenson and Chief -Batchelor approached me--I think they had been there earlier, and I -told them I thought the best thing to do was to set up our security -down there and bring Oswald down there and transfer him on to the -county jail. - -I went on up to the office and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson, I -think, remained in the basement a while and Captain Talbert was down -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you delegate to any specific person the security of -Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I could see that he was being taken care of by the -captain on duty, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Wiggins was assisting -in it, so I didn't see any need to particularly call some officer -over there and say, "Look, you are in charge of this security in this -basement." It was being taken care of, I could see. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, for the record, will you tell us what you saw that -satisfied you that it was being taken care of? - -Mr. CURRY. Officers were being stationed at the strategic points in -the basement to screen people coming in, and they were moving out the -vehicles as I asked them to, so I went on upstairs and I told Chief -Batchelor and Chief Stevenson that we should clean out everything in -the basement and screen everything that came back in. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you ordered everything to be "screened" did you give -any specific instructions? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't - -Mr. HUBERT. Or does that term have any significance in police work? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, it means to satisfy yourself that they were people who -had a legitimate reason to be there when you screen them. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, within the organization of the police -department, the word "screening" is understood so that you were -satisfied that there would not be people there who were not supposed to -be there? - -Mr. CURRY. Any unauthorized people. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just one more point on that--under the system, who would be -considered as unauthorized persons? - -Mr. CURRY. I think I specifically stated that only newspaper reporters -or police officers would be allowed in the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Only the news media? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Television people--would be included, too? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any discussion of the route to be taken? - -Mr. CURRY. Not at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; let's go ahead. - -Mr. CURRY. Then, I went on upstairs and a little while later I went -to Fritz' office and they were interrogating him--they--there were -several people in there, some I recognized as FBI agents, some were -Secret Service agents, some were Dallas detectives, and Captain Fritz -was talking to Oswald at the time, I believe, and I stood around a few -moments and when there was a lull in the interrogation, I asked Captain -Fritz if he was about ready to transfer Oswald and he said, "Well, no; -they were still talking to him," so I left the room. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time? - -Mr. CURRY. As I recall, it was probably 10:30, but I didn't care when -they transferred him at all. It didn't make any difference to me. The -arrangements had been made to transfer him and then when it was brought -to---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What arrangements had been made? - -Mr. CURRY. That we would transfer him to the sheriff, but at that time -we did not have any armored cars down there. We were just at that time, -I believe it was--understood that we would just put him in the car and -drive him down there. - -Someone asked me if I had heard of the threats that had been made -against him, and I had. They had called me at home about it, and I -called Sheriff Decker, I think, from Fritz' office, and when Fritz said -they were ready to transfer the man, and this is something after 11 -o'clock--probably a little after 11, and Decker said, "Okay, bring him -on," and at that time I said, "I thought you were coming after him." - -Decker said, "Either way, I'll come after him or you can bring him to -me," and I thought since we had so much involved here, we were the -ones that were investigating the case and we had the officers set up -downstairs to handle it, so I told Decker--I said, "Okay, we'll bring -him to you." - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at first your security precaution in the -basement was to take care of the situation of either your having to -move him from the jail or Decker coming after him? - -Mr. CURRY. Or Decker coming after him; that's right. Then, I saw Chief -Batchelor, and I believe, Chief Stevenson, and we discussed the threats -that we had had. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, that was, of course, after you had heard about the -threats and after you had talked to Decker? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think you mentioned you talked to Decker a little -after 11 o'clock? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, it was probably before that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to bring that to your attention because it seems -to me it must have been earlier than that. - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. Because we had to get the armored car in there -after that. Anyway, after it was determined we would move him, Chief -Batchelor, I believe, and Chief Stevenson and myself discussed this -security and we decided it would be best to get an armored car down -there in the event some one, some group tried to take our prisoner away -from us, it would be better to have him in an armored car. - -So. Chief Batchelor called the man, I don't recall his name now, that -runs the armored motor service here in Dallas, and requested that we be -furnished with an armored car, and I was told later that they had two -sizes, an overland truck and a city truck and they would send them both -over there when they could get the drivers and we could use whichever -one we wanted. - -Well, as I understand it, during this time the questioning of Oswald -continued up in Captain Fritz' office, and I believe it was about a -quarter to 11 or around 11 when we were told the armored cars were -there and they backed them into the basement and they wouldn't go all -the way down because of the height of the vehicle, and one of them was -parked on the ramp and officers were placed on each side of it. In the -meantime, I understand that the basement had been completely cleaned -out of any unauthorized persons. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me why it was that the Commerce Street exit -was chosen to put the armored car in and for the cars carrying Oswald -to leave in, rather than the Main Street exit? - -Mr. CURRY. Because Commerce Street is one way east and all the traffic -comes in on Main Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Main Street is two-way traffic? - -Mr. CURRY. It is two-way traffic and the exit is one way east, so the -vehicles were placed there. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of geographical fact, except for the fact that -you would have been going the wrong way, up the Main Street ramp and -that you had two-way traffic on Main Street, the actual closest route -would have been to go up the Main Street ramp, turn left up Main Street -and go down? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; it would. It would have been about three or four blocks -closer, because when we came out of Commerce you had to go east to the -second block and make a turn one block and make a turn back west. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief, have you any comment to make as to why the longer -route instead of the shorter route was taken? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, just because ordinarily we don't violate traffic rules -and regulations in the transfer of prisoners and we thought this was -the normal route that should be taken and that's the reason it was set -up that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. The original decision, as I remember it, was to go through -the Commerce Street exit and then turn left up to North Central? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then turn left again and go to Elm and then go on down -to the county jail? - -Mr. CURRY. When I went back up into the homicide office and told Fritz -about our plans of transferring the prisoner, he was not particularly -pleased with the idea of putting the prisoner in the armored car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why? - -Mr. CURRY. He said if someone tried to take our prisoner, he felt like -we ought to be able to maneuver and he felt that this would be too -awkward in in this heavy armored car and he preferred that the prisoner -be transferred in a regular police car with detectives. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was a policeman to drive the armored car? - -Mr. CURRY. No; not the armored car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a factor, too--I suppose--it wouldn't be a member -of the police force under your control driving that car? - -Mr. CURRY. No; but he felt like--Fritz said if anyone tried to take -our prisoner we should be in a position to be able to cut out of the -caravan or to take off or do whatever was necessary to protect our -prisoner. - -So, I didn't argue with him about it--there was some merit to his plan, -so I told him, "Well, okay, but we would still use the armored car -as a decoy and let it go right on down just as we had planned and if -anyone planned to try to take our prisoner away from us, they would be -attacking an empty armored car," and that his vehicle with the prisoner -in it would have cut out of the caravan and proceeded immediately to -the county jail and the prisoner would be taken into the county jail, -and the way we figured it, he would be there before the other caravan -got there. - -Well, he asked me if everything was ready and I said, "Yes, as far as -I know, everything is ready to go," and this was a little after 11 -o'clock and I said, "Well, I'll go on down to the basement," and was -en route to the basement when I was called to the telephone and Mayor -Cabell was on the telephone wanting to know something about the case, -how we were progressing, what was going on, and while I was talking to -him they made this transfer and Oswald was shot in the basement, and -he was rushed to Parkland Hospital and I was notified that he had been -shot in the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know about his being shot before he moved to the -hospital in the ambulance? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, they called me from the jail office and said he had -been shot and an ambulance had been ordered. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the shooting, what action did you take--that is, -the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, I don't recall any particular action I took. I was -told the man who shot him was in custody and was up in the jail. I -think I notified the mayor that the man had been shot while I was -still on the telephone with him and then I waited up in my office for -word from Parkland Hospital, and about 1:30, or I believe about 1:30, -we were informed that he had expired, and during this time I had been -informed that the man who shot him was a nightclub operator named Jack -Ruby, and that he was in custody up in the jail. - -After I was informed that Oswald had died, I made an announcement to -news media that he had expired and that we had the man who shot him in -custody and as I recall, that's about the extent of my activity on that -day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether on Sunday, November 24, it came to -your attention that Ruby had stated that he entered the jail through -the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. CURRY. I heard that, but I don't know who told it to me. I just -heard a rumor that he had come in through the Main Street ramp. I -understood that he told some more people that up in the jail. - -After this happened, I immediately set up an investigative team to try -to find out what happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "immediately," you mean on the 24th? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And who was that? - -Mr. CURRY. Inspector Sawyer, Capt. O. A. Jones. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to them? - -Mr. CURRY. To interrogate everyone that had anything to do with this -and find out what they knew about it, what had happened and how and why -and how it occurred. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that your instructions were then to -find out exactly the truth? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; absolutely. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did receive a report from them ultimately? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I take it, of course, that you studied it? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I remember the report, it made certain specific findings -as to how Ruby entered and so forth? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes, according to the report he did come down the Main -Street ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. From your study of the report and all the statements that -you got, are you satisfied with the conclusions reached in the report? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe this is the way he came in. I don't believe the -officer at the top of the ramp where he came in, I don't believe -that he knew that he went by, but I do state this, that I think the -proper security was set up, and that had each officer carried out his -assignment, I believe the transfer would have been made safely, and -while I, as head of the department, have to accept responsibility for -the security, I can say this, that the proper security was set up. - -It was a failure of one man to carry out his assignment properly that -permitted this man, apparently, to come into the basement of the city -hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that man you mean is Roy Vaughn? - -Mr. CURRY. Vaughn--Officer Vaughn, the officer assigned to the Main -Street ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of influence of any sort whatsoever or -suggestions exercised upon you or made to you concerning the transfer -of Oswald by either Mayor Cabell or City Manager Crull? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; they left it up to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief, as you know, there has been some suggestion that a -desire to satisfy the press dictated the time of the movement and the -route. I think you ought to have an opportunity at this time to recall -your own observations as to what influence, if any, considerations of -pleasing the press entered into any of these plans? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, I would only say this, that we were trying in the -police department to let the press have an opportunity to observe the -proceedings as they were. This is an event that had not been--the like -of the event had not been seen or heard, I think, in this century. - -I didn't have any particular ones to come to me and insist that this be -done in this manner. I saw no particular harm in allowing the media to -observe the prisoner, and with no laws against it, and no policies that -had ever been set up stating that the news media would not be allowed -to see a prisoner. - -There was no way for us to take the prisoner from the homicide office -to the jail and back without the news media seeing him. I was besieged -actually by the press to permit them to see Oswald. They made such -remarks as, "The public has a right to see, to know," I didn't want -them to think that we were mistreating Oswald; that we were carrying on -this investigation in a normal manner, and that this case was handled -as probably any other case would have been handled, although this had -more national appeal, you might say, and had some curiosity to it, than -some of the other cases we have handled. - -But certainly the fact that the news media was permitted to see him and -to take pictures of him was not anything unusual. This has always been -done, but not to this extent because we didn't have this much press -present. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I understand what you are saying, it is that had it -not been for the fact that the victim was Oswald, if it was Oswald, -and it was the President involved, this would have been quite normal -procedure, that is to say, the press would have been allowed to see -him, you would have told them when he was going to be moved? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And allowed them to take pictures? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was any suggestion made to you by anybody that it would be -best to disregard those considerations with respect to the press and -use another route in making the transfer at another time? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not that I recall. Fritz and I, I think, discussed -this briefly, the possibility of getting that prisoner out of the -city hall during the night hours and by another route and slipping -him to the jail, but actually Fritz was not too much in favor of this -and I more or less left this up to Fritz as to when and how this -transfer would be made, because he has in the past transferred many -of his prisoners to the county jail and I felt that since it was his -responsibility, the prisoner was, to let him decide when and how he -wanted to transfer this prisoner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't, in any case, give him instructions not to -transfer the prisoner at a time when he could not be observed by the -press? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; that's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that had he done so, it would have been -satisfactory to you? - -Mr. CURRY. I would not have complained about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Fritz' decision not to move him prior -to the time that had been announced to the press was motivated by -considerations of the press? - -Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was or not. I think this--that he -didn't know how long he would be interrogating. I don't believe Fritz -wanted to move him at night. I think he wanted to move him in the -daytime so that he could see anyone that might be trying to cause him -any trouble. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that, therefore, Fritz' decision not to -move him at night was dictated by considerations of security? - -Mr. CURRY. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief, I believe that I ought to offer you the opportunity -to state for the record here as an overall proposition what you -consider to be the cause of what was obviously a security breakdown? - -Mr. CURRY. I think the cause of the breakdown was the fact that -Officer Vaughn left his post to assist this Lieutenant Pierce, and I -believe Sergeant Dean, and I don't know who else was in the car, as -they left the basement of the city hall going the wrong way on the -ramp, and Officer Vaughn stepped across the sidewalk which he had -been instructed, so I am told, to guard that ramp--to let only police -officers or bona fide news media enter there. He momentarily stepped -away from his assignment and while he was away from this assignment, -our investigation shows that Jack Ruby went behind him and entered -the ramp and went to the bottom of the ramp and stood behind some -detectives and news media. - -Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the security at the top of the Main Street ramp -where Vaughn was, what observations have you to make about that means -of entry being guarded by one man only instead of, say, more? - -Mr. CURRY. Well, actually, this seemed to be the least risk in our -security plan. All of the crowd and vehicles and everything was over on -Commerce Street and there was very little over on Main Street, actually -very little activity at all. It was only about a 12-foot ramp there -that he had to guard. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he was standing right in the middle of it? - -Mr. CURRY. Had he stayed on his assignment, I don't see how Ruby could -have gotten in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, when the Pierce car came up, he obviously had -to move away, but your thought is he moved too far away from his -assignment? - -Mr. CURRY. He moved too far away from his assignment. He apparently -was assisting this vehicle to get across the sidewalk, I think it was -10 or 12 feet wide, and into the street. Actually, he should have just -stepped to one side and let the vehicle come by. - -Now, this officer was put on a polygraph to determine whether or not he -knew that Ruby went by him and according to the test, the results of -the test, he did not realize that Ruby went by him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief, in addition to your testimony, I have shown you -two documents which I think you have read, and I am marking for -identification as follows, to-wit: The first one is a report of an -interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain on November 25, the -document consisting of two pages, and I am marking on the first page -"Dallas, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5313, deposition of Chief J. E. -Curry," and I am signing my name on that, and on the second page I am -placing my initials. - -With respect to the second document, it seems to be a copy of an -interview of you made by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 10, 1963, -and I am marking on the margin of the first page, as follows: "Dallas, -Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5314, deposition of Chief J. E. Curry," -and I am signing my name at the bottom of that page, and since the -document has a second page, I am placing my initials at the bottom of -the second page. - -Now, I am going to ask you if you would mind signing your name where -my name appears and your initials where my initials are, so that the -record will show we both are talking about the same document? - -Mr. CURRY. Okay. - -(Signed document as requested by Counsel Hubert.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Then I am going to ask you whether you have any comments to -make about those two documents? Would you initial the second page, too? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I will. - -(Witness Curry initialed instruments as requested by Counsel Hubert.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Chief, have you had an opportunity to read both of -those documents? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; I looked them over. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do they represent the truth so far as you know of the -interviews that they purport to cover? - -Now, if you have any comments to make or deletions or modifications or -changes, or if you find that those documents are incorrect, I would -like for you to say so, because what we will have to do is to get into -the record what is correct and not what is not correct. - -Mr. CURRY. [Examining instruments as referred to.] Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are they correct, sir? Do you have any comments or -deletions? - -Mr. CURRY. No; I don't have any comments. As far as I know--as far as I -can recall, this is about what happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the -Commission's staff prior to this time? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I had a little conversation with you over in my -office. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 weeks ago when I was present in Dallas? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that occurred during that conversation -that has not been covered here? - -Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, finally, is there anything at all you would like to -make a matter of record concerning this whole thing? You are at liberty -to say anything you want to say. - -Mr. CURRY. No; the only thing I would like to say is that I deeply -regret the incidents that occurred and I feel like we did everything -that could be expected of us as a police department to set up the -security of the President and to cooperate with all agencies that had a -responsibility in this matter, that we certainly would have liked for -Oswald to have remained alive and faced trial. - -According to the information that was given to me by the homicide -bureau, we had developed a very good case on him and would have been -able to, I'm sure, would have been able to convict him in a court of -law. - -Jack Ruby--I do not know, I did not know. It has been intimated that a -great many of the Dallas police officers did know him, but from what -I've been able to find out, there were some police officers who knew -him, but most of them knew him because of the fact they had conducted -police business with him at his place of business. There were a few, -perhaps, that knew him and had gone to his place of business for social -activities, but it was certainly not--he is not known by the majority -of the police department. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief, perhaps you would like to comment on two -things--one, is that, as you know, there has been some talk or rumor, -of course, that the police department cooperated, or some members of -it, with Ruby for an opportunity for Ruby to shoot Oswald. - -Have you looked into that, and if you have, would you give us your -observations about it? - -Mr. CURRY. My instructions to the investigating officers were to go -into every facet of this incident and to uncover any information that -might indicate that any police officer cooperated in any way with -letting Ruby get in a position to where he could have an opportunity to -shoot Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any evidence that would indicate anything? - -Mr. CURRY. No evidence whatsoever were we able to find. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were looking for such? - -Mr. CURRY. Yes; we certainly were. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief, what was your intention had you found such evidence? - -Mr. CURRY. Proper action would have been taken. - -Mr. HUBERT. And by that you mean what? - -Mr. CURRY. The officer, if criminal negligence had been established, he -would have been filed on by us. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been also the rumor that while the police -did not actively cooperate, that they saw Jack Ruby there, didn't pay -much attention to him, were really appalled when he did what he did, -and then after that, engaged in a cover-up activity to preserve the -reputation of the police department. Can you tell us whether your -investigative efforts were directed toward uncovering any evidence -which might throw light on that matter? - -Mr. CURRY. This investigation which was conducted was a completely -impartial investigation. - -We in the police department for a number of years have felt like if -there is anything wrong in our department, we want to know it, and if -actions of the officers are improper, an examination of our records -through the years will show that we have taken whatever action was -indicated, whether this be filing on a man for law violations or for -improper conduct or whatever it might be. The seriousness of the -offense is certainly not covered up and through the years we have a -reputation for a high standard of conduct and the integrity of the -department has not been questioned. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that from all you know that there has -been no effort to cover up? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge, and had there been and it had -come to my knowledge, I certainly would have done something about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the evidence shows that really Ruby -came through one man? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was Vaughn? - -Mr. CURRY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say, chief? - -Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, sir, on behalf of the Commission and myself -personally, I want to thank you very much for coming here and being -frank and contributing, I think, a great deal of the permanent record -in this matter. - -Mr. CURRY. Thank you, sir, if there is anything that I might know that -I haven't brought out, I will be happy to. The only thing I can say is -that our security broke down at one place. I can't deny that, and I -don't think it intentional on the part of the police department to have -this thing occur. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that's covered. I wanted to ask you those questions -and I think they are going to be asked and we are going to have an -answer to them now and you are the man to do it. Thank you very much, -chief. - -Mr. CURRY. All right. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SHERIFF J. E. (BILL) DECKER - -The testimony of Sheriff J. E. (Bill) Decker was taken at 10:44 a.m., -on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, -Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of J. E. (Bill) Decker. - -Mr. Decker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission under the -provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the -joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted -by the Commission in conformity with the Executive order and the joint -resolution. I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from -you, Sheriff Decker. I state to you now that the general nature of the -inquiry of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to -report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy -and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Sheriff Decker, the nature of the inquiry -today is to determine what facts you may know about the death of Oswald -and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, -including the security of Oswald, and the method and so forth by which -he was killed. - -I think, Sheriff Decker, that you have appeared here today by virtue of -a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes; I think that's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is the General Counsel of the staff of the President's -Commission? - -Mr. DECKER. I know there was a letter--anyway, I am here due to that -reason. - -Mr. HUBERT. I had the impression you had a letter, but let me say this, -that in any event, you are appearing here by virtue of a request made -to appear here? - -Mr. DECKER. I was notified by the U.S. Secret Service to appear here -and I presume that was a summons. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, that would be because we did not wish to go through -the formalities here? - -Mr. DECKER. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. In that case, however, I must state to you that under the -rules and regulations of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a -3-day written notice before appearing. - -Mr. DECKER. I understand. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the Commission does provide that the witness may waive -that 3 days' notice and I now ask you if you are willing to waive it -and testify now? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up, please, and I will administer the oath? -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name? - -Mr. DECKER. Bill Decker. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Mr. DECKER. Sir, 66. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? - -Mr. DECKER. 6302 Palo Pinto. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Mr. DECKER. I am sheriff of Dallas County. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been sheriff? - -Mr. DECKER. Since January 1, 1949. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have been reelected a number of times? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many times? - -Mr. DECKER. I am serving my 16 years--I had two of those--one of those -terms for a 4-year term, but we caught 2 years prior to that--that -makes 4 from 16, leaves 12, 3 and 1 is 4 terms and I am coming for my -fifth now. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to the time that you became -sheriff? - -Mr. DECKER. I was chief deputy sheriff for Dallas County 14 years prior -to that. Prior to that I was chief deputy constable since 1924, prior -to that I was in the courthouse as a court clerk and prior to that I -was elevator operator in the courthouse. Now, that's it--that's my life. - -Mr. HUBERT. You started really at the bottom you might say, and went up? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are married, of course? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have a family? - -Mr. DECKER. I have one adopted son. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I--as I understand it, it is your responsibility to -operate the State or county jail for those prisoners who are either -serving terms that may be served there, or who are awaiting a trial in -Dallas County and do not make bond, is that correct, sir? - -Mr. DECKER. That is correct. I am keeper of the county security -building, of the county jail, which maintains the prisoners. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is located where? - -Mr. DECKER. 505 Main Street, the corner of Main and Houston, and it -extends to the corner of Elm and Houston in the rear. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when prisoners are put in your custody or you take -them into your custody who are awaiting trial, where are they placed, -in cell blocks or something of that sort? - -Mr. DECKER. Oh, yes; we have a jail there with a capacity of 750 -prisoners. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have what might be called maximum security there? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes; I do--there are many maximums--I have 450 -maximum-security cells that's the latest that can be built. The others -are built in the old jail which was built in 1913. Of course, my steel -isn't so good in that old jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. By maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security -from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out? - -Mr. DECKER. It is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern -locks. The man who maintains it--the opening and closing of the doors -to it is in a cell block where the prisoners could not get to him -unless he did as a couple of my boys did the other day, I'm sorry to -say. You don't need to put that in there. They are no longer with me. -They opened the door when they had no business to and they lost their -jobs and I lost five prisoners. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does maximum security as it operates with you include -considerations of security to the prisoner himself? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider it to be your function, not merely to -secure the prisoner so that he may be brought to justice or acquitted, -but also so that his personal security will be maintained and he will -not be injured, either by other prisoners or by outsiders? - -Mr. DECKER. Well, I even go further than that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you tell us about that? - -Mr. DECKER. A prisoner that is delivered to me--when the crime is -committed, he is then delivered to me and when he is delivered to me, -from then on I am his keeper. I must furnish his food, his clothing, -get his medication and all the necessities of life required. I must -protect him from a violent prisoner and I also must protect him from a -citizen who would desire to do harm to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that your physical set up, and by that I -mean, bricks and cement and steel as well as personnel is adequate to -accomplish the purposes that you have described as maximum security? - -Mr. DECKER. We feel that our men are qualified from the training that -is given to them, one; that the jail has passed Federal jail inspection -on many occasions; and we feel that our jail is so constructed that the -prisoner is protected. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you are aware that a man by the name of Lee -Harvey Oswald was in the custody of the Dallas police? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes; I had some officers present when he was arrested. - -Mr. HUBERT. From the sheriff's office--sheriff's officers were present? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes; sheriff's officers were present in Oak Cliff at the -time. They responded to the assassination of the killing of Tippit, the -same as others. You see, I was at the scene of the assassination of the -President. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. DECKER. When my officers were dispatched there, I also told some -other agencies to send their men over there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is the custom with respect to prisoners who are -captured or taken into custody by the city police when there is no -warrant of arrest? - -Mr. DECKER. Most prisoners taken in custody by the city police are -arrested within the corporate limits of the city of Dallas and they in -turn are moved to the city jail, which is located at the corner of Main -and Harwood, or better still, in the 2000 block of Main Street, and -there confined until their period of investigation is completed. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long is that? - -Mr. DECKER. Well, now, that's a problem I couldn't--there would be no -way to answer that--how long does it take to make some investigation? - -Mr. HUBERT. What I had in mind was whether there was any rule, -regulation, or law? - -Mr. DECKER. No; someone said once you couldn't hold them over 24 or 36 -hours, but where it is, I don't know. The city ordinance under which -most municipalities work is--they have a right to arrest and hold for -investigation until they could determine if a crime has been committed. -That leaves it pretty blank. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, let's assume that a man has been formally -charged and that there has been a capias or warrant---- - -Mr. DECKER. It's a warrant in this case. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of arrest, which authorizes you to arrest the particular -prisoner? - -Mr. DECKER. I or one of the constables. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your custom--are there any rules or regulations or -laws? - -Mr. DECKER. No; there's no rules or regulations--only this--when a -warrant is issued--when a complaint is filed with my district attorney -or the magistrate, which is the justice of the peace, the warrant -is issued and delivered to the agency. If it is a felony and in the -justice court, it goes to the constable, which this offense we are -speaking about was a felony and should have gone to David Johnston, -justice of the peace, precinct 2, and the warrants were delivered to -the city police. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about the charge with respect to -Tippit, are you, or the death of the President, or both? - -Mr. DECKER. Well, I rather think it was both. - -Mr. HUBERT. The warrants then were not put into your possession at all? - -Mr. DECKER. No, sir; not at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is in accordance with the custom, too? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What would normally happen in circumstances such as we are -dealing with here, where warrants were issued about 7 o'clock in one -case, as to Tippit, and a little later about 11 o'clock on the 22d of -November, as to the death of the President, what would be the normal -situation as to your getting control and custody and your becoming the -keeper of these prisoners? - -Mr. DECKER. The whole thing would be that if we, if those warrants had -come through the regular channels to us, we would have contacted--I -imagine we would have contacted Captain Fritz because it was a homicide -and that is in his division, and asked him about the prisoner and -discussed with him if he was ready for transfer--if he was going to -transfer or did he want us to transfer. That would have been the normal -procedure with us. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it is normal to have them transfer the -prisoner to you, rather than for you to go and get them, or both? - -Mr. DECKER. No; it is normal but it is not too much--they transfer -maybe one-tenth of maybe 1 percent, but as hot a piece of merchandise -as this prisoner was, chances are Captain Fritz and his men would have -attempted to bring him from the city hall to the courthouse. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, except in rare instances, meaning a -situation of this sort, you send your men to the city jail to get them? - -Mr. DECKER. Day in and day out. We have a paddy wagon for that purpose -and a driver for the purpose and uniforms and insignias and all on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you make any efforts to take custody of -Oswald? - -Mr. DECKER. I can't tell you that as to when--the homicide occurred -and the boy was taken in custody in the afternoon and that was on a -Friday--I'm not going to tell you for certain because there was so much -and on Friday afternoon we were taking statements in my office--you -know--this thing happened, occurred just across the street from my -office and we moved all the witnesses when we were on the ground there -at the scene, all the witnesses we could locate--I was working there -and I had Inspector Sawyer, who is there with me, and also Heitman -of the FBI and my assistant chief deputy, and every witness, just as -we picked up a witness that had any information at all, we sent him -directly across the street to my office and reduced his statement to -writing. Then, I talked to Fritz after he arrived. - -We had by then located the gun and the ammunition, my officers had -located it in the building, and was awaiting the arrival of the scene -searchers and also the arrival of my scene searchers and Fritz arrived -and then I talked to Fritz and then we went across the street and he -phoned and that's when I learned Oswald had been formerly employed -there at that building. - -And, Fritz went to the city--now, here's something I'm uncertain -about--whether I talked to him that afternoon or the next day about -this removal, I cannot tell you because there was so much happening and -so much press in our hair, I couldn't say, but I did discuss with him -and advise with that I wished to be notified when he started to move -this boy, so that I would have my security in shape to receive him when -he arrived there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think that was no later than Saturday, the 23d? - -Mr. DECKER. Oh, no; it wasn't. I don't think it was any later than -that--no. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understood you, you couldn't tell -whether it was on Friday or Saturday, but it could not have been Sunday? - -Mr. DECKER. No; it wasn't Sunday. I remember there were different -conversations on Sunday, different conversations on Saturday and -different conversations on Saturday night. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, perhaps if you can, you can tell us about these -various conversations, if you remember them--who they were with and -about what time? - -Mr. DECKER. Well, on Saturday, the homicide, I believe, if I'm -correct--now, the date of the homicide of Oswald was what? - -Mr. HUBERT. It was Sunday the 24th. - -Mr. DECKER. The 24th--Sunday. Friday, after we had completed our -investigation and gotten our files together to some extent, we then -closed shop, shall we say, and went back into our routine work, and on -Saturday arrival at our office we then again, I'm reasonably sure that -was the day, we talked about moving Oswald but I just don't remember. -That's one of those things you just don't remember the date. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you talked to Fritz? - -Mr. DECKER. That's when I talked to Fritz. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did Fritz tell you, do you know? - -Mr. DECKER. He said he would notify me when he was ready to move. - -Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't ready at that time? - -Mr. DECKER. He wasn't ready at that time, witnesses were being brought -in, he was still interviewing witnesses. Now, then, later that -afternoon the rumor was out that they were going to bring him down--of -course, we had rumors, rumors, rumors all the day, because we had -worldwide press and they were in the city hall, you couldn't get in the -city hall for them and they were running back and forth down to our -pressroom, and this word was here that they were coming, so late that -afternoon, on Saturday, Jim Kerr was the first man that brought me the -date of the 10 o'clock transfer Sunday morning. Jim Kerr is associated -with channel 5, and there were several of the pressmen in my office and -members of my staff and we were discussing it and later in the evening, -later about 9 o'clock it was getting on to be, and he notified us they -were going to move in and I think I then confirmed that with someone in -the city and they said yes--the next morning at 10 o'clock and then I -went to my home. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they say "Next morning at 10," or not before 10? - -Mr. DECKER. They said "around 10 o'clock." - -Mr. HUBERT. You got that, though, from newsmen, you think? - -Mr. DECKER. Jim Kerr is the man that gave me the information. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't talk to Fritz or Curry about that? - -Mr. DECKER. No; but I checked it up at the city with somebody there, -and I don't know who it was now. - -Mr. HUBERT. You, yourself, don't know who it was? - -Mr. DECKER. I checked it on the telephone. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember who you talked to? - -Mr. DECKER. No; I don't remember who I talked to. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was confirmed that he would not be moved that night? - -Mr. DECKER. It was confirmed that he wouldn't be moved that night and -that's all there was to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you say your normal operations went on and I assume you -went to your home? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to your office on Sunday, the 24th of -November? - -Mr. DECKER. It was before 10--around 10 o'clock--wait a minute, let -me see if I can refresh my memory just a little bit here [examining -records in his possession]. I am considering that time of when I -was advised by the city that transfer might be made the first time, -if you care to incorporate this in there--the first time was 3:30 -p.m. Saturday. At that time it was not at 10 o'clock. I have this -note--however, I arrived at my office early Sunday morning to recheck -all security measures that had been provided for the transfer of -Oswald, so what would be early for me, sir, I am a man that doesn't get -down to the office until 9 o'clock, and so if I arrived at 9 o'clock, -that would be early arrival for me, so you can place it near that -period. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Decker, I would like for you to carry on from there in -narrative form as to just all of the events that happened as they came -to your knowledge. - -Mr. DECKER. You mean on that morning, on Sunday morning? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DECKER. For additional security, I placed all members of the -press--you see, I forgot to give you this a moment ago--on Saturday -afternoon and Saturday night when they learned that they were going to -transfer Oswald down there, the world's press moved from the 2000 block -on Main to the 500 block on Main. They were laying on my floor, they -were laying on the sidewalks---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean that was Saturday night? - -Mr. DECKER. That was Saturday night, waiting for the Sunday morning -transfer. They just started moving out of the city hall and moved down -there--suddenly they were all over the streets, the sidewalks, the -floors, we had cameras running out our ears. - -Mr. HUBERT. Television too? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes; everything--live television moved in, and some -remained at the city, you see, and they set up down there a press--back -and forth--so, I heard that my halls were full and my carport was full, -so I moved them all out. I told them to come in the building, bring -their cameras with them, that they were going to utilize, and the -remainder not operate unless they were on the street--into a room--you -will have to see my building to realize it--it's where you walk in -the front, you see, the building is on Main and you come in the rear -from the carport. There is a room that runs down about 45 or 40 feet, -which is just an open hall space and a room where people stand who are -attempting to get information out of the jail or visit someone in the -jail, and I moved them into that and closed the doors on them. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you cleared them from where? - -Mr. DECKER. I cleared them from the carport, where the man would be -brought in, and put them behind locked doors--I'm talking about steel -doors, now. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, there was no news press or anybody else at the spot -where the prisoner would be brought? - -Mr. DECKER. Well, there may have been some on the street--I'm not so -sure of that--but what I mean, I cleared the port and kept them in this -room where they could only see him as he came by one door and by the -second door, and they were away from him a distance then. He was to be -in the carport and they were 20 or 25 feet back in the building. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say you had them under lock and key, but they could see -out--could they see through windows? - -Mr. DECKER. No; bars, they were barred doors. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. - -Mr. DECKER. They were barred doors. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you put all the press people out there? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you check to see whether they were press people or not? - -Mr. DECKER. All in all--I was under the impression that they were--that -the majority of them were press people. I don't think there was anybody -in that room that wasn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did you have any system of checking? - -Mr. DECKER. No; I didn't personally check and search each one of them -because they had so darn much equipment--everybody had equipment--I -don't care who they were, and I had my officers mix and mingle with -them and knew most of them. You see, we got pretty well acquainted with -that press for 2 or 3 days there because they were continually in our -hair, you see. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go ahead. - -Mr. DECKER. At the outside drive, or at the entrance to my carport--I -moved a couple of my men--four or five of my special men there to be -sure that it was clear when the man did arrive. I had been notified by -Curry that maybe they would bring him down in an armored car and I had -some other rumors--they would be bringing him in a car, and about that -time on those live TV cameras in that room, the flash came that shots -had been fired, that there was a riot on in the basement of the city -hall, and if you will pardon my French and you don't need to put this -in here, young lady, "We caught lightening in the jug in that room," -sir. There is no question. They tried to crawl the walls, they tried to -tear down those barred doors, they tried to do everything to get out of -there and it looked like I would never get them out of the damn room. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean the ones you had locked up? - -Mr. DECKER. The press--they were locked up and couldn't get out of -there with all of their equipment, so as I say, "We caught lightening -in the jug." There wasn't any question. Finally, I got the doors -open and they tore out on Main Street and out on Houston Street and -commandeered cars with cameras hanging on their backs, some of their -own equipment, back up Main Street. I lost the majority of them then -for a few minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you been given any warning by the FBI that they had -received a message, or had the message been received, I think, by your -office, that some attempt would be made by a group to injure Oswald? - -Mr. DECKER. That's along 12:30 or 1 o'clock in the morning--that's when -that occurred. That's when I got on the telephone, you see, sir--I'm -sure that you don't understand this, but, you know, but no man--it -makes no difference how long he is an officer, ever imagined that he -could work on an investigation the size of this one and therefore, of -course, you realize that my officers and I'm sure some of the city -officers, myself included, were working under just a little bit of -pressure. - -Anyway, this thing you are talking about came to me from my office man, -Sergeant McCoy, and he had received a call from the Federal Bureau of -Investigation, Milt Newsom, who stated to him that this boy was going -to be killed and that he had good information. He relayed that message -to me at my home, and I asked him had the city been notified and he -said, "Yes." - -Mr. HUBERT. That was early in the morning, as I recall? - -Mr. DECKER. It was 12:30; 12:30 in the night. - -Mr. HUBERT. 12:30 on the morning of the 24th? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes; and I called that office and I talked to a man whom I -believe to be Frazier, is that correct? - -I don't know the gentleman only there by telephone conversation. - -Mr. HUBERT. You, yourself, talked to him and told him what you had -heard? - -Mr. DECKER. I told him what I had heard and talked to him about the -transfer, and I even went so far as to advise McCoy to call in a pair -of my supervisory personnel to stand by my office, that should they -decide to transfer this man, they would be available and we would have -the other men moved in there to make it secure--to have the security. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any suggestions that he be moved earlier than -the time that had been announced? - -Mr. DECKER. I did. I suggested to get the man on down to the lower end -of Main Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before the time announced? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes; then. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did you say that to--Frazier? - -Mr. DECKER. I'm sure I told it to Frazier and I'm sure there was one -or somebody in Fritz' office--I don't remember whether it was Baker or -Wells, I talked to one of those persons. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was when you got this call from the FBI? - -Mr. DECKER. When I got this call from my night sergeant. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was still nighttime? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes--it was in the morning--12:30 in the morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that he should be moved immediately? - -Mr. DECKER. I felt that he should be moved--yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What reply did you get? - -Mr. DECKER. They stated that they were going to ask him if he wouldn't -feel better to talk to his superiors and see what could be done. -He called me back shortly and stated that he had had no success -in contacting them, and I think that was about the extent of our -conversation. I kept my men, my supervisory personnel standing by in -the event that they did change their timing or anything and notified -us. I asked him if he had any success to call me and that we would make -arrangements to take care of the prisoner either way, and I meant by -that that we would transfer him or whatever was necessary to be done. - -Mr. HUBERT. At this point let me ask you: When a man is transferred to -your custody, may he thereafter be interviewed by the city police? - -Mr. DECKER. Anybody who wishes to. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that Captain Fritz and others could have continued their -investigation? - -Mr. DECKER. It's not customary for them to bring a prisoner down until -they have finished their investigation in the city. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but the transfer to you would not have -cut off their opportunity to investigate? - -Mr. DECKER. Oh, no--no--it wouldn't have cut it off to anybody--any law -enforcing agency. Just the same as Ruby, Ruby has been interviewed in -my jail by city police, the FBI agents, and incidentally may I ask you -a question? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well---- - -Mr. DECKER. If you can answer it, all well and good--I can't. I keep -getting information here that we are going to have you people--you -people are going to attempt to interview this prisoner that I have -now, and if that is correct, why of course I would like to make some -provisions to talk to somebody before it happens. Of course, it will -take a court order for me to move him, which of course you know is no -trouble to obtain--you know that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I can't comment on that. - -Mr. DECKER. Don't, if you can't, sir--it's all right, but of course -I am leaving that with you that I would like to have some advance -knowledge. You can comment on that--that you will do it if you have any -knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I'm sure if such a decision is made by the people who -are authorized to make it, that they will cooperate with you in every -way possible. - -Mr. DECKER. And, I would like to keep it out of the press also because -every time I turn around with Mr. Ruby, I am blasted with this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that's another matter--that's out of my control. - -Mr. DECKER. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I repeat that I think that if such a thing should come -about, that you would be contacted and that the various problems that -might exist in the matter would be discussed with you fully and that -the persons representing the Commission would cooperate with you. - -Mr. DECKER. I'm sure they will. - -Mr. HUBERT. In every way you wish them to do so, consistent, of course, -with their mission. - -Mr. DECKER. It makes no difference. I'm sorry, but I don't seem to have -in this file Perry McCoy's statement. I think you have a statement from -McCoy. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. DECKER. He made one--stating the times that he talked to the man, -the conversations, and substantiated exactly practically what I said to -you. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think we have covered the point. - -Mr. DECKER. I know you have because I sent him up there to be -interviewed. - -Mr. HUBERT. I have heretofore shown you two documents identified as -follows: The first being a report of an interview of you by Officer -Neeley. - -Mr. DECKER. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. On November 27, 1963. - -Mr. DECKER. That's where I told him I didn't wish to discuss the matter -any further over the telephone. - -Mr. HUBERT. I have identified it by marking on the margin, "Dallas, -Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5321, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. -Decker." That consists of one page. - -The second document also consists of one page. It is a report of an -interview by James W. Bookhout of you on November 28, 1963. That -document I have marked for identification as follows: - -"Dallas, Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5322, Deposition of Sheriff -J. E. Decker," and I have signed my name. I think you have had an -opportunity to read these two? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I should like to ask you, sir, if these documents are fair -statements of the interviews that you had with the FBI agents indicated? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are they correct? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make with respect to either one of -them? - -Mr. DECKER. No, sir; I think they speak for themselves, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. May I ask if you have any particular comment, sheriff, to -make with regard to the last paragraph of exhibit 5321, which reads in -part as follows: - -"Sheriff Decker stated that he had no desire to discuss this matter -further and does not desire to furnish any details of the conversations -he had with the Police Department and declined to say whether he -advised the Police Department he had a preference as to the time of day -the transfer of the prisoner should be made." - -Mr. DECKER. That was a telephone conversation. I had an office full of -people and that's what it was and I didn't make any statement--no more -than I made directly to you here about the call, and which McCoy made, -which is a statement which you have from McCoy in your files. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, then, your explanation of the paragraph -is that you did not wish to discuss the matter further over the -telephone and in the presence of the people who were there? - -Mr. DECKER. Well, I don't believe I went that far. I just said I didn't -care to discuss it any further and I got my friend Neeley off the line. -That's all there was to it. And I never had the opportunity to talk -to him afterward again until I met him several days ago, you know, he -works in north Texas and is in and out, but that's all the conversation -he and I had--what you have there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I had in mind to ask you was this: On the face -of the paragraph that I have just read from Exhibit 5321, it looks like -there was an attitude on your part that you didn't wish to cooperate -with the FBI--I am just simply wanting to get the record straight from -your point of view--as to what was your intention. - -Mr. DECKER. As I said at that time--I didn't care to discuss it any -further at that time. That's all there is to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand, but this paragraph is correct and stands -as it is? - -Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir; I did not--at that time I didn't discuss it. -There was no reason to go into why, and why--I told him my reasons a -moment ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, sheriff, I have noticed that you have looked from -time to time at a book which I gather must be your own or the official -record? - -Mr. DECKER. No; it's part of my records there. It doesn't have all the -statements in it as it should have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were copies of those statements made--are they available? - -Mr. DECKER. They are yours--you can have them if you want them to keep -them. - -Mr. HUBERT. This copy? - -Mr. DECKER. You can have the whole thing. The only thing that is not -in there is McCoy's and about three or four other statements. I will -submit the whole thing to you if you want it right now. You can take it -with you. I have no objections. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to have this returned to you--this seems to be -a copy anyway--this is not the original. - -Mr. DECKER. Yes; those are photostatic copies. I can furnish you those -others--I can furnish you that copy on McCoy and I can furnish the -copy on two or three others that I have down there but I don't know -where McCoy's is and I don't know whether they left it out of there or -not--since McCoy's I have testified to, I would like to furnish it to -you. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. DECKER. And will send it to you shortly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark this document, then--I am marking it, "Dallas, -Tex., April 16, 1964, as Exhibit 5323, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. -Decker," and I am signing my name to it. - -The document is actually a dark brown heavy folder with an Acco -fastener. It is called Acco Press on the inside and bears the label -on the outside, "Harvey Lee Oswald, WM 24, Murder--11-22-63 of John -Fitzgerald Kennedy; W-M-46, President of the United States. Assault to -murder: Gov. John B. Connally." On the left hand bottom side of the -cover is a sticker on which there is typewritten "File of: Sheriff's -Department, Dallas, Tex., Bill Decker, Sheriff," under which I have -written the identification of it as I dictated it a moment ago into the -record. - -Turning on to the inside of the book, it seems to be divided up into -parts. There is a yellow, light cardboard division marker, which in the -left hand bottom says, "Crime Reports." In that are 2 yellow sheets -and 10 white sheets. I am marking the cover with my initials and the -yellow and white sheets with my initials, all in the lower right hand -corner. The next subdivision which is made by a light cardboard sheet, -is entitled, "Witness affidavits." I am marking it with my initials. - -Mr. DECKER. Now, you are supposed to have copies of all of those -affidavits come to you from some agency--I don't know which. - -Mr. HUBERT. And, each of the sheets thereof I am marking with my -initials. There are 35 of such sheets. - -Then, in the last part of the book, also divided by a light yellow -cardboard sheet on which I am putting my initials, that division sheet -is entitled "Officers supplement," and there are 42 sheets which I have -marked with my initials. Is this document, Sheriff Decker, that you -have handed me a complete record of what you have concerning Oswald? I -think you mentioned that there might be one document or two that you -wished to send me? - -Mr. DECKER. I would like to send you a copy of McCoy's statement, a -copy of McCoy's report in there and maybe a couple of other statements, -that's all. There may be some others--I can send those to you -anywhere--Washington or anywhere, it makes no difference, or I can send -them up here to you in the next 45 minutes after I leave here. - -Mr. HUBERT. After lunch will be all right. - -Mr. DECKER. Fine, I will send them up. - -Mr. HUBERT. I will just attach them to this exhibit. - -Mr. DECKER. That's all right--they belong in there and I don't know how -they got out, but in comparing them, making a new one up, you lose some -once in a while--as much paperwork as we do in law enforcement fields -this day and time, you lose a heck of a lot of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Sheriff Decker, has any member of the Commission's -staff interviewed you other than myself? - -Mr. DECKER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything further you wish to add? - -Mr. DECKER. I don't know why I should take any more of your time. You -have practically everything I have that is of value to you. If there is -anything further you want--we are available and you have a big job to -do---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, that's all right--that's what I'm here for. - -Mr. DECKER. I know that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But if we know all that you know, then that's all right. - -Mr. DECKER. That's right--so, there is no reason of going over it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that considering your testimony here -today and what you have told the FBI and your records---- - -Mr. DECKER. And my records that I have given to you--turned over to -you and what my other deputies have given to you, I don't know of any -reason to take up any more of your time, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. - -Mr. DECKER. I will be delighted to have you come and see my operation -before you leave and it might clear up some things there for you. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you. - -Mr. DECKER. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CAPT. W. B. FRAZIER - -The testimony of Capt. W. B. Frazier was taken at 2 p.m., on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. W. B. Frazier, Dallas -Police Department. Captain Frazier, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a -member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Captain FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive -Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution -of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the -President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the -joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition -from you, among many officers of the detective bureau. Your name -has been specifically mentioned as a person from whom I could take -a sworn deposition. I state to you now that the general nature of -the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon -the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, -Captain Frazier, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what -facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts -you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Captain, you have appeared -here today by virtue of a letter addressed to Chief Curry by Mr. J. -Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel for the President's Commission. -Under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness is entitled -to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition. The -rules also provide, however, that if the witness wishes he may waive -the 3-day notice in writing. I say to you that you have a right to the -3-day notice, which you have not received, but I ask you if you wish to -waive that 3 day---- - -Captain FRAZIER. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't wish---- - -Captain FRAZIER. Oh, I will waive it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You do not wish to persist in your right to have the 3-day -notice? - -Captain FRAZIER. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then I'll ask you to stand, sir, and raise your right hand -to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Captain FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please? - -Mr. FRAZIER. William Bennett Frazier. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Forty-three. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 2205 Newcastle, Garland, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Police officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police department of Dallas? - -Mr. FRAZIER. For 17-1/2 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have the rank of captain? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What particular function or duties are you assigned to in -the department, sir? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I am in charge of the radio patrol platoon. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Chief N. T. Fisher. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same rank and the same duties during the -period November 22 to 24, 1963? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I did, yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were on duty on the morning of -the 24th of November, is that correct, sir? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty? Do you know? - -Mr. FRAZIER. At 11 p.m., on the 23d. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that is what they call the first shift? - -Mr. FRAZIER. First platoon. - -Mr. HUBERT. First platoon, rather, and that goes until roughly 7 in the -morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Around 7; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been on duty the night before, that is, on first -platoon. That would have been---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. What day would it have been, sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would have been the 23d. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I mean, what day of the week. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, the day before would have been Saturday. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time. That would have been -the first platoon. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was your office, in fact, in the building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. On the second floor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do at all with the interrogation, -or the security of Oswald? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 24th of November, about in the middle of the -shift there, about 3 or 3:30 or 3:45 that morning, I understand you -received a telephone call from an FBI agent, is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; Mr. Newsom, I believe his name is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how it came to you? How did the call come -to you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Newsom called me and said he had received a threat -from some man to the effect that a group of men, I believe he -indicated they had 100 or 200, I don't recall the exact number, were -going to attempt to kill Oswald that day sometime. That he didn't want -the FBI, Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office injured in -any way. That was the reason for the call. So, Mr. Newsom called me and -related that story to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in charge of the police department at the time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I was in charge of the patrol section. - -Mr. HUBERT. Patrol section? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What other senior officers were on duty? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I guess I was the senior on any division at that morning; -yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, Chief Curry was not there, Chief -Batchelor was not there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Stevenson was not there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Fisher. He was not there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You, in fact, were the ranking officer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. On duty at that time; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of that? I mean, are you made aware of that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How is it done? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, just the fact that the officers under--who rank -under you are there, and there is nobody of equal rank or higher -present in the entire police department, it reverts to you. - -Mr. HUBERT. The highest in rank is in charge of the whole operation? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, if someone had asked for who was in--if Newsom had -asked to speak to the top man in charge, you were that man, that day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard any of that news of that sort from another -source? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Deputy Cox, or Coy in the -sheriff's---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. I talked to that man later on in the morning after Mr. -Newsom called me. But I don't know the name, whether it was Coy, or -Cox, but he indicated that Sheriff Decker wanted to talk to Chief Curry -in regards to moving Oswald, so, I, in turn then attempted to contact -Chief Curry by telephone and his line was busy. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I don't know. 5:45, 6 o'clock, somewhere along there. Then -I tried for some 10 or 15 minutes to get his line, and it was busy, so, -I asked the operator to check into it. She came back and said the line -was out of order, so, I in turn, was preparing to send a squad by the -chief's home and tell him of the information and that Decker wanted -him to call him and Captain Talbert relieved me around 6 or 6:15. I -give him the information and he said he sent a squad later and told the -chief about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think earlier you had called Captain Fritz, hadn't you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I called Captain Fritz once or twice in an effort to -see if they were handling it or if the chief was handling it, or if -homicide--Captain Fritz was handling it. Since he is the captain in -charge of that particular bureau, so, naturally I called him first. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was when you got the message from Newsom? - -Mr. FRAZIER. A little while later; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He said I should talk to Chief Curry, that he was handling -the transfer. - -Mr. HUBERT. That Chief Curry---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; not him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Not him? Did he tell you of any plans made for the -transfer? Did Captain Fritz tell you of any plans made for the transfer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, sir. He may have said--I'm not sure. I -heard this later on in the morning, I think, but I'm not sure. He -may have said then that he planned to move him around 10 the next -day. I don't recall whether he said it or some other officer said it -later on in the morning, but I did hear it. Now, I don't say whether -Captain Fritz is the one that told me or not. I don't recall the exact -conversation there other than the fact that I had asked him if he was -handling it and he said, "No." Chief Curry was handling it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you spoke to Mr. Newsom from the -FBI whether Mr. Newsom told you that the Dallas Sheriff's Office had -received a similar call to the one he was relating to you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; I don't recall that. He possibly--he could have said -it, but I do not recall it, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When the gentlemen from the sheriff's office, either Cox or -Coy, called you that was simply about when the transfer was going to -take place, is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I assume that is what it was. He indicated to me that -Decker wanted to get ahold of Chief Curry and move him as soon as -possible. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did that man mention to you about the receipt of any -threats such as Newsom had told you about? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I believe he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the second threat you had received that morning? -In other words, the threat came from two sources, so far as you know. -You heard it from the FBI, and this man from the sheriff's office? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Indicated---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Indicated that he had received a threat? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I believe he did; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember saying to Mr. Newsom that the plan to -transfer Oswald to the county jail might be changed in view of the -threat that he had conveyed to you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir. That wasn't any of my business, that -transfer, and I'm sure I didn't relate that to him, because I'd be -telling him something that I didn't know about, really, at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling Mr. Newsom of the FBI, on the -occasion that he called you that morning around 2 or 2:30, that -Oswald's plans of transfer had been publicized primarily as a form of -cooperation with press and news agencies? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not make that---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Huh-uh. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not make that statement? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I did not make any such statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any planned transfer, to your knowledge? - -Mr. FRAZIER. All I knew that they was supposed to move the next day, -and then perhaps later in the morning I--maybe Captain Fritz told me -that they were supposed to move him around 10 a.m., that morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is as to time, but did you know of any plans prior to -going off duty that day as to the method, the route, and the vehicles -to be used? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go off duty, sir? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was around 6 or 6:15, or something like that, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come back then? - -Mr. FRAZIER. If that was---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the department and go home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I went home and I went to bed. I was asleep when -Oswald was shot. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. My wife awakened me shortly thereafter. She had seen it on -TV. She was watching the transfer on TV, and she awakened me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I called and asked if they needed me. They said, -"No, stay where you are. You will have to work tonight." So, I stayed -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Fritz has said--did I understand you to say, that Curry was -in charge of all transfers? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Was in charge of that transfer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of that particular--of Oswald's transfer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of W. J. Harrison, I think -they call him "Blackie," a detective? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he is a patrolman temporarily assigned to CID. -Yes, sir; I believe he is in the juvenile bureau. I'm not sure, but I -think he is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him talk about his experiences on the -24th? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't seen him. I haven't seen "Blackie" in, -I guess, 6 months or so, maybe longer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Patrick Dean? - -Mr. FRAZIER. P. T. Dean? Sergeant Dean? I know him; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to him about his activities on that day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he works on another platoon and another captain -and I don't come in contact with him very often except just to say -hello as we are going off duty or coming on and only one I confer with -is the captain in charge of the platoon coming on when I leave. - -Mr. HUBERT. The radio patrol is what, actually? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is the regular squad car, two-man squad car that -patrols the entire city. We have anywhere from 185 to 205 men on duty -at most platoons. However, our day platoon is our lowest. It will run -120, 125. - -Mr. HUBERT. These men are cruising areas? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; districts. - -Mr. HUBERT. And they are controlled by radio communication from your -office? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; from the dispatcher's office, which is---- - -Mr. HUBERT. So, if you want to contact any of those people you can do -it directly, you do it through a dispatcher? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Through the dispatcher; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you--were you on duty when the President was shot? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you called in? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You just took your regular shift at 11 o'clock that night? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had gotten off at 7 o'clock? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 6 or 7 that morning; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. If we would want to find out about the dispatch sent out -right after the President's death, or right before, whom would we -contact? What would be the name of the officer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Lumpkin, George Lumpkin. - -Mr. HUBERT. Lumpkin? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he is in charge of all communications and -I believe most of that is on tape. They tried to tape most of the -conversations. - -Mr. HUBERT. They keep the tape? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; permanent records, as I understand it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which I have marked for -identification with the following inscription, in my own handwriting, -"Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5086, deposition of W. B. -Frazier." I have signed the first page, and placed my initials in -the lower right hand corner of the second page. I'll ask you if -that statement--if you have read that document and whether it is -substantially correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you, therefore, if you would sign your name -under mine and place your initials under mine on the second page? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right here, sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; right there and then sign your name on the front page -right under my signature there. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Over here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. FRAZIER. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I hand you another document which I have marked -for--"Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5087, deposition of W. B. -Frazier." I have signed my name to the bottom of this document which -purports to be a report by Special Agent Melton L. Newsom of the FBI, -of a conversation which he had over the telephone with you on November -24, 1963, at about 3:20 a.m., and I'll ask you if that report by Mr. -Newsom of that conversation is a correct report of that conversation? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe it is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you indicate what parts are correct and what parts -are wrong? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Now, you are asking of my own knowledge, is that correct? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this first paragraph here, I know nothing of this. -Mr. Glassup. He didn't talk to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I think the---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. And, he received the call I understand here, and it goes -into, "I represent a committee that--it is neither right nor left -wing," and so forth. I didn't get all that in the conversation with -Newsom, that I recall. Newsom told me that a group of men, I believe he -indicated a hundred or two were going to kill Oswald the following day, -the day after the night--or, you know, the next day or two. Now, that -was essentially what he told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you say he didn't tell you that had been received by -Glassup? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he said they received information, or threats. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he give you the exact language of the threat, as -indicated in that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. He simply told you that they had received the threat and -the sense of the threat was along the lines of the paragraph, first -paragraph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, neither mentioned Glassup's name, nor did he speak the -exact quoted language which--when he spoke to you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the next paragraph, second paragraph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is essentially correct. However, I believe -he did advise the Dallas sheriff's office had received a similar call. -That is essentially correct, that paragraph. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; what about the third paragraph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The third paragraph, I don't recall making that statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the fourth paragraph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Because, at that time, I did not know exactly what the -plans were to move Oswald, see. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what about the last paragraph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean to say that you do not recall? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I do not recall making that statement to Mr. -Newsom. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to do this then with reference to that -document. Just place the word, next to the last paragraph, "incorrect," -and initial it. - -Mr. FRAZIER. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you initialled it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, with that---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. And the top paragraph. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, the top paragraph---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. I couldn't attest to that either. - -Mr. HUBERT. Please explain what your position is on it, and if you -would like to sign your name just below mine so then we have the matter -in hand. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything else that you would like to state -that has not been said? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; nothing more to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the commencement of this deposition with you, have -you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's Staff? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were not interviewed by me, in fact, before it began? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CAPT. O. A. JONES - -The testimony of Capt. O. A. Jones was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the Dallas deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones, Forgery -Bureau, Dallas Police Department. My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a -member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Under the Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, -1963, the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of -procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive -order and the Commission, I have been authorized to take the sworn -deposition from you, Mr. Jones. I state to you now that the general -nature on the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report -upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and -the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you Captain Jones, the nature of the inquiry today -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent fact you may know about the general inquiry. Captain -Jones, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made -by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission to -Chief Curry. - -Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a -3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. The rules -of the Commission also provide that the witness may waive the notice. -Do you waive the 3-day notice now? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you be sworn, please? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Captain JONES. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Captain Jones, please state your full name? - -Captain JONES. Orville [spelling] O-r-v-i-l-l-e Aubrey [spelling] -A-u-b-r-e-y Jones. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Captain JONES. Forty-nine. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? - -Captain JONES. 2603 Alco [spelling] A-l-c-o Avenue, Dallas 11, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Captain Jones? - -Captain JONES. Captain in the city police department, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that rank, sir? - -Captain JONES. April of 1957. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular assignment now? - -Captain JONES. Commanding officer in the forgery bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are under Chief Stevenson? - -Captain JONES. M. W. Stevenson is my superior officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your rank and duties were the same during the period of -November 22 and 24, 1963? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain, I show you three documents which I am -numbering--I show you three documents upon which I am writing the -following in the lower right-hand corner. "Dallas, Texas, March 24, -1964. Exhibit No. 5054, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." Beneath which -I have signed my name, Leon D. Hubert. The second document which I am -endorsing "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5055, deposition -of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my signature below that. That -document consisting of three pages, and I am initialing--two other--to -revert back for a moment to No. 5054, that has a second page and I am -placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower -right-hand corner. Third document, I am writing on the right-hand -margin the following: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5056. -Deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my name below that. -That document containing three pages. I am taking my initials and -placing them on the second and third pages. Now, Captain, I think you -have read these three documents which I---- - -Captain JONES. I have; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to place your name below mine on each -one of these pages, please, and your initials below mine on the other -pages, after which I'm going to ask you some questions concerning these -documents. - -Captain JONES. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just below mine and then initial the second and third page -below my initials there. Now, Captain, I think you have already stated -that you have read these three documents? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5054, 5055, and 5056, and I am going to ask you if, -in your opinion, those documents represent the truth, or if you have -any kind of amendments, modifications, or additions that you want to -make? - -Captain JONES. There are some additions. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record what amendments or -modifications, whatever else you have to about the documents. - -Captain JONES. This is off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, back on the record. Anyhow, with reference directed at -5054, Captain, what have you to say as to that? That being a report of -Special Agents James W. Bookhout and Joseph M. Meyers, of an interview -of you by those gentlemen on November 25, 1963. - -Captain JONES. First, let me say that they make reference--they are -correct, but they have grouped together under "specific instructions -that I received." I received, at two different times, that is not at -the same time. At first, when I was sent downstairs Chief Stevenson -gave me instructions to go to the Commerce Street ramp, place two -patrolmen there to assist an armored car down that ramp to get it -backed as far down as possible, down in the basement---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave that, do you know about what time it was? - -Captain JONES. I'd say only about 11 o'clock, and it could have been -a little before because of the amount of time required on that, but I -didn't look at my watch. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you. - -Captain JONES. Do you want me to go on to the other points? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Captain JONES. The other part. In one sentence I gave, he has specific -instructions about keeping them back, and Chief Batchelor and Chief -Stevenson did so later when they came to the basement, and I called the -attention that photographers were out in the other part of the jail -office now, and there was nothing said upstairs--said about clearing -anything except what I said that one thing, except--take--taking any -detectives remaining on the third floor and placing them where I -wanted them, where I felt they would be needed. That goes into it a -little more in detail, but by having that in front of me right now. -If you could, I can show you the point that he states he instructed -me to secure the area for the transport of Lee Harvey Oswald from the -Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail--with additional specific -instructions from Chief Stevenson or Chief Batchelor or to have -detectives under their supervision to question the news media to keep -the basement east of the driveway--that came up after we got down in -the basement, and it reads maybe as if it was given at another place. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you have just read and commented upon is from the -first paragraph of a document 5054? Right? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead now. - -Captain JONES. The--in other words, the two instructions given -previously before I went to the basement were: One, to arrange to have -officers assist the armored truck which they told me was en route, to -back into the Commerce Street ramp down into the city hall and as far -as possible. Number two; take any remaining detectives from the third -floor down to the basement and place them where I thought they might be -needed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record how you carried out those -specific orders? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I made a round of all CIB Bureaus, with -the exception of homicide and robbery, which was working on the -assassination, and got--I can't tell you, two or three or some -detectives that were remaining, and we went down the elevator. This -is the one I went down with the--and I don't know who they were, and -don't have any names. Didn't make a detail--but I went up and did see -Patrolman Jez and one other patrolman that I don't know his name---- - -Mr. HUBERT. They were in uniform? - -Captain JONES. They were in uniform. They would remain and assist -the armored truck in backing down there. And the detectives that had -come with me were standing at the jail office. I had left them at the -door of the jail office, and coming back toward the ramp, I came upon -Captain Talbert, in charge of the patrol division, and told him that -Patrolman Jez and the other officer were up there and what the Chief -had said. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you any other comments to make -about---- - -Captain JONES. Now, that is all about that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that that is document 5054? - -Captain JONES. Let me check on this now for sure. That is--yes; that is -all right now. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. And Exhibit 5055. - -Captain JONES. May I ask you a question? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. - -Captain JONES. Now then, the instructions about checking that, you -want to get to that later that I got--where Chief Batchelor and Chief -Stevenson---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What I want to do is get through these documents. - -Captain JONES. All right, sir. Now, our next exhibit. That would be -5055? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. That is the letter addressed on November 26th, to -Chief J. E. Curry? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. This is a copy of the original which apparently was signed -by you? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have read it. - -Captain JONES. I have read it, and only one thing on that. That is on -page 2, at the top--where I had two different directions running from -the jail office door across the ramp running east, and then I turned -and went south, and we called that east, too, but it is--only thing the -right is running, instead of east, should have read south. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where is that, sir? - -Captain JONES. All right, sir. I will show you. Up here this word -"east," probably should be "south." - -Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we change that from "this point running east," and -I will encircle it and put the word "south," and putting my own initial -below the change, and ask you if you would---- - -Captain JONES. Running east from the door of the jail office to the -rail on the opposite side, and down a line from this point running -south. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, just initial the change then and the word "east," which -we encircled and changed to "south," and Captain Jones and myself are -initialling the change. - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, do you have any changes that should be -made? - -Captain JONES. Let that stand. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then this document which I have identified as Exhibit -5056, being the report by the FBI, specifically by Agents Edward -Mabey and Kenneth Hughes [spelling] H-u-g-h-e-s, of an interview with -you, apparently, on December 2, 1963, and ask you if you have any -corrections to make as to that? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; there are one or two changes that I would like -to make in that. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Captain JONES. Let's see. Can I see it just one moment, sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Sure. - -Captain JONES. All right. I would like to make the following changes. -At the bottom of page 1, of Exhibit--that is 5056, I believe? - -Mr. HUBERT. That's right. - -Captain JONES. The last sentence that reads, "Jones assisted in holding -back the press line during the process, and gave instructions to all -officers near the jail office and the door to allow no one in the area -from the jail to the automobile, down the route the prisoner was to -take." - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is your comment? - -Captain JONES. The comment is that the sentence should have read, -"Jones assisted holding back the press lines through the process of -moving the automobile onto the ramp." The rest of the sentence refers -back to just prior to that when the instructions had been given to keep -those things clear. Immediately following the clearing of the jail -office is when I gave those instructions at that time, to hold the -people back and get those--I did not have time or the opportunity, and -did not turn at that time and tell everybody that we were trying to get -the car back up into position. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any change or comments to make upon the -document--5056? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; on page 2, of this same exhibit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, back on the record. - -Captain JONES. Beginning with the first complete paragraph that says, -"Jones was walking up the Commerce Street ramp when he heard from -behind him, 'Here he comes,' from an unidentified individual," and on -that, there is only one change. - -Whereas, Jones was walking toward the Commerce Street ramp instead of -up it, now. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not---- - -Captain JONES. In other words, I was not up on the rise itself. I was -walking toward it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Heading from what direction? - -Captain JONES. From the general area in front of the jail office door, -out in the flat area. The ramps come down like [indicating] straighten -out. The jail is here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you wish to point out is that the -Commerce Street ramp takes an upturn about half way up the ramp? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that you want to indicate that you had not reached the -up-rise? - -Captain JONES. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you were in the ramp that runs between Main and -Commerce, but on the level part? - -Captain JONES. On the level part, and walking toward the rise. - -Mr. HUBERT. Walking toward the rise. Any other comments concerning that? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; on page 3---- - -Mr. HUBERT. 5056? - -Captain JONES. 5056. - -Mr. HUBERT. What paragraph? - -Captain JONES. It will be the last sentence; begins on page 2. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; the last sentence beginning on page 2. Will you -read it then? - -Captain JONES. "Jones then placed two officers at the swinging door -just outside the jail office, and advised them not to let persons leave -who had proper identification---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Latter part of that sentence is at the top of page 3, of -that Exhibit 5056, is that right? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. The correction, sir, that is "Jones then -placed two officers at the swinging doors just outside the jail -office and advised them to let the reporters and news media who had -identification come to the third floor." - -Mr. HUBERT. Other than that change, that sentence, you think, is -correct? - -Captain JONES. That's correct, yes, sir. Now, I have one more. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. What page? - -Captain JONES. It is the last paragraph of page 3, first sentence that -reads---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about Exhibit 5056? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -"Due to the fact that Jones was recalled from vacation, he wasn't -present at any briefing on the security measures that were to be in -effect in the basement on November 24, 1963." - -Mr. HUBERT. All right? - -Captain JONES. Now, on that, I had been due to go on vacation on -Friday. I had continued on through. I don't know why I wasn't in on any -briefing or anything. I am going to say that is the reason I wasn't, -for I was down there, and that was, I'm sure--I have told the gentlemen -these facts and so forth, but that I didn't attend a briefing, that I -had planned to go on vacation immediately after the President's speech -at the the Trade Mart, and--but I can't say why I wasn't called in on -any briefing. I just wasn't in on any of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just while we are on that subject, is it a fact that you -were supposed to go on a leave as soon as the President left Dallas? - -Captain JONES. On Friday; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. On Friday? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In fact, did you go? - -Captain JONES. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state very briefly for me your activities from -the time of the night before the President's visit up until the 24th? -Just very briefly. - -Captain JONES. All right, sir. I had been assigned previously in the -week to have charge of the fourth floor at the Trade Mart where the -President's luncheon was to be held. On Thursday night before---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Wait. Thursday night? - -Captain JONES. Thursday night before the luncheon. I was rather wakeful -and a little nervous, certainly not anticipating an assassination, but -because of some unfortunate incidents in Dallas, there was a desire not -to have anything happen that would reflect on the city, and certainly -even a humiliating incident such as throwing paper, eggs, or shouting -or anything such as that. A little apprehensive about it, and didn't -sleep very much. Went out to the Trade Mart on Friday and stationed -quite a few officers at all the places on the fourth floor. - -I had a listing and a schedule and all that. Remained there until -afternoon--that is, after news of the assassination, and until we were -told that we could leave. I then returned to the city hall and en -route had cleared with the dispatcher that if he didn't have further -instructions for the group with me that we would return to the city -hall. - -I returned, and I immediately made every officer available to Captain -Fritz. I don't know how long that we worked that night for sure, but I -do know it was after 2 o'clock when the FBI Agent Vince Drain left the -city hall with some--some evidence he was going to take, and that was -about 2 o'clock, Saturday morning, the 24th. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home---- - -Captain JONES. Yes, I did go home for possibly 2 to 3 hours and laid -down. Didn't rest very much. We came back down Saturday and continued -working with Captain Fritz. Making my offices available and my men -available to him during the day Saturday until Saturday evening when we -filed our--our bureau filed the assault to murder charge on Oswald for -the shooting of Governor Connally, which is our bureau that, assault to -murder--that handles assault to murder. - -Captain Fritz' bureau handles murder, and by this time I--that was -filed, I began to help take incoming calls and to assist in any way -that I could up there in the administration offices. Stayed up there -until at least nearly midnight Saturday night. Went home, got a few -hours of troubled sleep that night. Before I left, Chief Stevenson -told me that it looked like my cases were all filed, everything was in -pretty good shape. I might as well go ahead and take my vacation as I -had planned and I told him I couldn't enjoy--a little fishing trip was -what I had planned--until it was all over. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me go back a moment. There was a lineup of some kind on -the night of Friday, November 22, at which Oswald was brought into the -lineup in the assembly room at the police department, at which a number -of news media were present. - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you present that night? - -Captain JONES. No, sir; I was on the third floor at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Captain JONES. I have known him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just state how well and under what circumstances. - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I will be glad to do that. And I do want to -ask--can I say something off the record here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Get back on the record. - -During the off-the-record period, Captain Jones simply explained to me -that he had omitted something from his comments relative to what? - -Captain JONES. Relative to knowing Jack Ruby. I've got to find---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Relative to what document? - -Captain JONES. 5056. Document 5056; that would be the first complete -paragraph on page 3, where it states, "Jones states that he did know -Ruby and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a -nightclub on South Central. He stated that prior to 1952, he was a -lieutenant covering this district and did go into the Silver Spur, at -the most, six times looking for white subjects." - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your comments on that? - -Captain JONES. The comment is that, "Jones stated that he did know -Ruby and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a -nightclub on South Ervay." The next sentence should read, "He stated -that prior to 1952, he was a detective assigned mostly to colored -cases, but that occasionally we were assigned cases involving white -suspects, and on a few occasions did go in the Silver Spur during those -investigations." - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Captain JONES. I was asked how many times, and I could not estimate how -many times. I said, "Not over six times, probably, altogether." - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way to you. Did you know him well enough -so that you would have recognized him had he walked into a room? - -Captain JONES. That is a question in my mind that I doubt very much -that I would have. I did recognize him in the basement after someone -said--before I ever saw who it ever was in custody, that it was -Jack Ruby, and when I was told that in advance I did recognize him. -Otherwise, it is possible that I might have recognized him had I been -given that opportunity but I did not have the opportunity. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him, that is to say, Jack Ruby, in your rounds -of the basement any time, from the shooting of the President until the -shooting of Oswald? - -Captain JONES. To recognize him as such, I did not see him to recognize -him then. And after seeing him at the time of the arrest, I did not -recall having seen him even as a face in the crowd prior to that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that now with the consideration after having -been told that it was Jack Ruby and recognizing him, you still don't -remember having seen---- - -Captain JONES. I did not see that particular man in there, and not -having recognized him, I don't recall seeing that face, at any time. -This is with the full knowledge that since this matter I have found -that one of my own men filed a simple assault case on him about a year -ago, but I wasn't aware of that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any plans that had been made at that time -for the transportation of Oswald, prior to leaving to go home on -Saturday night, the 23d of November? - -Captain JONES. That is one of the questions that I am going to have -to say that things have come up that during my investigation that -I headed following the shooting of Oswald, by Ruby--that I headed -a team of several lieutenants, and one detective investigating the -security in the basement--and I have some knowledge as a result of that -investigation, that no one came to me and told me about the possible -transfer, or--possible transfer, or any plans for a transfer prior to -me going home Saturday night. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that the plan was not to transfer Oswald -until at least 10 o'clock on Sunday morning? - -Captain JONES. It seems to me as if possibly there was something about -that in my mind, but I can't tell you where I got it, but there was -some talk around there. I don't know whether the time was 10 o'clock, -or 9 o'clock, and since that time I have talked to people that said, -"I don't know," but it does seem to me that I was under the impression -that when I got up Sunday morning that if I got down there before 9 -o'clock, he possibly would not have been transferred by that time, but -so help me, I cannot think--I cannot say how that I knew that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you another way. Were you given any -specific duty to perform or anything relative to the transfer whenever -that would take place? - -Captain JONES. You mean prior to that 11 o'clock, when I was sent to -the basement? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; prior to Saturday night. - -Captain JONES. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to leaving on Saturday night---- - -Captain JONES. In fact, I was told that if I wanted to go on my fishing -trip, I could go. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, then you got back at what time? - -Captain JONES. I would say somewhere roughly around 9 o'clock, couldn't -have been much after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything between 9 and, say, 10 o'clock? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I sure did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you did. - -Captain JONES. I was answering the telephone, and I can't recall -specific things. It was just things that come up that needed doing -right then. Getting calls---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you the same question I asked about the other -period. Were you given any specific duties to do, or specific functions -as to supervising concerning the transfer of Oswald during this period -of 9 to, say, 11 o'clock, or roughly 11 o'clock, on the 24th? - -Captain JONES. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you simply answering the phone? - -Captain JONES. I came in and started answering the phone, and started -doing whatever appeared necessary for me to do. - -Mr. HUBERT. What then happened next? - -Captain JONES. Well, that went on for almost 2 hours or somewhere near -that and then at approximately 11 o'clock is when Chief Stevenson came -to me, and I don't know whether he came in from one of the offices. I -was in the big lobby out front of the chief's office, but I came to the -double doors where the secretaries have their desks, and he came to -me and told me to go down to the basement of the city hall, go up the -Commerce Street ramp and place two officers there to assist an armored -truck that was en route to be used in the transfer of Oswald. Have -those two officers there assist that truck in backing down into the -basement as far as possible. "I don't know whether it will go all the -way or not," also to take any available detectives on the third floor -to the basement and place them where I thought they might be needed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions? - -Captain JONES. I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us in what way you did so? - -Captain JONES. All right, sir. I went to the automobile theft bureau, -juvenile bureau, my own forgery bureau and--burglary and theft bureau, -and got any detectives available to have them report to me at the jail -office, and it seems to me, as I say, as if two or three detectives -went with me. I couldn't tell you how many it was in the elevator going -down with me, but--nor who they were, but I do know that when we got to -the jail office I then asked them to remain in one place and I went out -the door on the ramp, or on the driveway and up the ramp to Commerce -Street, called Patrolman Jez and another officer, uniformed policeman, -then. Relayed Chief Stevenson's instructions not to leave there that -the truck was en route. - -In coming back down the ramp I encountered Captain Talbert, who is in -charge of the patrol division, and because Chief Stevenson had sent -me down there to do that, I informed him of the instructions I had so -that he wouldn't inadvertently move them, and then I returned to the -officers in the basement--jail office, and just standing outside there. -And from here on in--many times--I can tell you most of the things that -happened. I am sure I may be a little unsure of the time, or sequence -of things, for there in a matter of a few minutes quite a lot of things -were done, but I returned into there and told the officers to remain -there, that---- - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say that you returned---- - -Captain JONES. To the jail office on the basement floor. Now, who they -were, I don't know. I am sure some of it is mentioned in the individual -officers' reports that we have, of the ones that were there that I was -talking to and told them as far as I knew the armored car was going, -that was going to transfer him, that was backed up, it was backed up -there and we would see the prisoner was safely escorted over to that. -Meantime, someone, I couldn't tell---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Just 1 minute. Before that, had you been told by Chief -Stevenson when he instructed you to go down to the Commerce Street ramp -and make arrangements for the handling of the armored truck---- - -Captain JONES. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told what route would be followed by the -armored truck, or whatever vehicle? - -Captain JONES. I had not been told that. I had heard some discussion. -We have a large map of downtown, city of Dallas, that sits inside of -the chief's office where the secretaries sit outside there, and one of -the chiefs, I don't recall which one it was, was over there talking to -someone else about a proposed route. I don't know what it was. I was -not told. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that? - -Captain JONES. Oh, just prior to my going to the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, just prior to 11 o'clock? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were discussing what route to take? - -Captain JONES. Discussing route, and I don't know what arrangements was -made. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back into the basement where you left off at the -end of the last sequence of questions. What time, roughly, would it -have been when you had completed the duty of informing the police who -were at the top of the Commerce Street entrance, and after you had -informed Captain Talbert, and after you had gotten these three men---- - -Captain JONES. To the jail office there? - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, about? - -Captain JONES. Well, it would take a minimum, I would say, of 5 -minutes, to come up that. It would vary a little, and possibly more, -depending on how fast the elevators came up and so forth. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next then? - -Captain JONES. Next thing I did--it was brought to my attention--we -don't have a chart here so I will have---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Here; I am going to mark it, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, -1963. Exhibit 5057, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." I am signing my -name below it and I would like you to sign your name, here. - -Captain JONES. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then will you use the exhibit as you see fit. Let me -say to you that if you do refer to the exhibit please indicate in words -where it is rather than pointing to it because it will not make sense -later on. - -Captain JONES. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were saying about the basement---- - -Captain JONES. When I got off the elevator, came out and left the -elevator--all right, now, someone brought it to my attention that -photographers and news media were in this part of the jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the jail? - -Captain JONES. Jail office, outside. - -Mr. HUBERT. Outside of the desks? - -Captain JONES. Outside the booking area, outside of the desk part of -the jail office, and newsmen all out in here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are pointing to the jail area? - -Captain JONES. The corridor they have from the driveway from the -basement jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the east side of the swinging doors? - -Captain JONES. On the east side of the swinging doors; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did you do? - -Captain JONES. I did not know the instructions given to the other -officers down there prior to that. Nothing. So, immediately after -seeing them--I saw Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson come out the -swinging doors into the area, and Batchelor, being the highest ranking -officer present, I pointed these people out to him, and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, in the jail office? - -Captain JONES. In the jail office--were they supposed to be in there, -and wouldn't it be better, if we could get those people out of the jail -office, that it would be easier to watch the prisoner, and so, I don't -know the exact words, I used, and they walked around and looked around, -and then agreed that it would be. So, he and I, and at least one other -officer, and I don't know who he was, but at least one more removed -everyone out of the outer part of the jail office to just outside the -swinging doors coming from the basement of the city hall going east. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the direction---- - -Captain JONES. In the direction of the driveway, and after getting -them out there, not knowing the specific instructions that might have -been given I said, "Chief Batchelor, would it be possible to have all -this media be placed north of a line from the east corner of the jail -office--all right. To move all the news media north of a line formed -from the corner of the jail office from the corridor to across the ramp -leading down from Main Street, to have all reporters north of that -line, and that east of a line running off from this point across the -driveway going south down to the exit from the basement parking area." - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, I am going to mark, as you have indicated on -the map, by making a line starting--with the letter "A" on the corner -formed by the intersection of the jail corridor and the basement ramp -moving east to a point, "B", which I am marking---- - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which is the east side of the ramp, and to another point -marked "C". - -Captain JONES. Well, now, actually, that line would extend all the way -up here at that time. I meant to keep them back on those two--and in -order---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in what your suggestion was that the news -media should be kept north of the line marked A and B? - -Captain JONES. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And east of the line which runs "B to C," the point "C"? - -Captain JONES. I didn't spell it out in those details, but that is the -general idea, yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. "B" being the top of the Commerce Street ramp? - -Captain JONES. For this reason, that we would have only two sides to -watch. The rest of it would be more or less brick wall, and he agreed -to that. The officers were stationed previously by other people along -these lines, so, I went out there with some of these officers and I -don't know how many, and we did get those people back. - -Mr. HUBERT. You got them back? - -Captain JONES. We got them back fairly well at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Behind the lines? - -Captain JONES. Behind these lines. In fact, there at one time it was -completely clear. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would have been how long before Oswald came down? - -Captain JONES. There again, I couldn't say. It was a matter of a few -minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how many people were in the area that I am -marking with a pen, "Area A"? - -Captain JONES. I cannot tell you. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which is to say, the area north of the line "A", which you -recently drew? - -Captain JONES. Mr. Hubert, that would be truly a guess on my part -along with knowledge obtained later and watching these TV films. -Unconsciously, I would have to use that, for I don't have any idea on -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder across the ramp? - -Captain JONES. It wasn't when we first pushed them back there, it -was possibly six or eight people, and possibly a few more than that -including officers. I didn't stop to--told the officers, "Get them -back," "get them back." - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am talking about an area called "B", can you give me -any comment as to how many people roughly were in there? - -Captain JONES. I couldn't guess. A few minutes later I can tell you -there was quite a few people there, but---- - -Mr. HUBERT. We'll get to there. Suppose we get to that. Now then, at -the time Oswald was brought down, can you tell me how many people, -roughly, were in Area "A" and Area "B"? - -Captain JONES. No, sir; I find myself with figures there that--that I -do not know whether they are right or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Captain JONES. What I would want to say, that I did see several people, -and I was up there personally, and I don't know exactly who they were, -but I was attempting to push them back at that time. So, we can get to -that any minute, but as far as giving you a figure or definite number -or something, I couldn't do it with any degree of accuracy. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Do you know of your own knowledge what -procedures were being used for checking people in that whole downstairs -or basement area, including the ramp and so forth? - -Captain JONES. I know only one instance of--somewhere on the way down -there that morning, whether it was up on the third floor or whether--I -believe it was off of the elevator, just coming off of the elevator I -was asked for an identification. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were in civilian clothes? - -Captain JONES. I was in civilian clothes, yes, sir. I was asked, and -that is the only time. I did not give the instruction. These officers -were placed there prior to that, on the outside lines, and I don't know -of my own knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, proceed with the chronological sequence. - -Captain JONES. The chronological sequence, after getting these people -out of the jail office and out of the corridors and driveway to these -two points of which we were speaking, then I was somewhere just -south of this point marked "B" on the driveway when Chief Stevenson -approached me and said, "There has been a change in plan. We are going -to put two cars on the driveway and use them." Now, sometime in between -there, and I can't tell you the exact time I am aware of a blur of a -car going out the wrong way. I didn't see who was in it, and I didn't -take too much awareness of it. I don't know just when it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "going the wrong way----" - -Captain JONES. I mean it came out of the basement area and headed up -toward Main Street which ordinarily is the down ramp and you go out the -ramp going up Commerce Street. There was a car out there, and in light -of the investigation I know the circumstances now, but at that time -I couldn't tell you about that one which did go out. Chief Stevenson -said--came to me just before or after the car pulled out and said--said -there was a change in plans, "We are going to put two cars in the -driveway and transfer him in a car." Almost immediately some cars -started up back in this area [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "this area," that is the basement? - -Captain JONES. All right, the parking area of the basement, east of -the driveway, and I am very sure one car that I saw pull up and go -up the Commerce Street ramp from a ways, and I think I am aware of a -second car pulling up behind. Now, the second car was having a little -difficulty backing down into position to where it would--where it -should go, so that when I stepped forward and became aware of quite a -mass of people, I couldn't tell you how many in this area "B". - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing in the west side of the area? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; the west side of area B, but the east side of -the ramp. I was somewhere in there, and I attempted to push the people -back, and I'm afraid I may have delayed the driver by pushing these -people back, but along about that time someone shouts, "Here he comes." - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you just make a little circle as to where -approximately you were? - -Captain JONES. I think--I think--I think I was somewhere right in this -area here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle. - -Captain JONES. Well, I don't know. That is as close as I can put it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have drawn a circle, and I'm just going to put here, as -you said, that it was somewhere around in here, around in the circle -that you have drawn and I am marking that "approximate position of -Capt. O. A. Jones at the time that Jones heard someone say 'Here he -comes,'" is that correct, sir? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, actually, there was an automobile, as you say, backing -up towards east, right? - -Captain JONES. Well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. But when they begin---- - -Captain JONES. It would have been backing north attempting to back -north. - -Mr. HUBERT. Backing north, but with the front of the car facing south? - -Captain JONES. Now then; from here is something that was a mystery to -me for 2 weeks---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't answer the question. - -Captain JONES. That's true. In the basement area, onto the ramp, -heading out towards Commerce, and attempting to back toward north. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you say there was something else? - -Captain JONES. The police vehicle--car is ahead of me a little bit. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is what? - -Captain JONES. Ahead of me, backing toward it, and I am probably in the -way, and when they shout, "Here he comes," and the line up ahead of -me--up toward the Commerce Street ramp, and I know of some officers, -Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor, uniformed men up at the ramp, but -I'm not sure about Captain Talbert. I'm sure, I believe he is ahead -of me. Quite a few officers, however, someone yells, "Here he comes," -there is a big furor, so then as I turned and looked back into this -area "B", there are some people in there which--hands out, looking -them, completely. I am looking east. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are looking away from the---- - -Captain JONES. From the approximate point. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you are also looking away from the point which Oswald -exited? - -Captain JONES. That's right. In watching the people, I was aware, in -fact, in trying to get them out of the way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it be correct to say that the televisions were to -your left? - -Captain JONES. I think so. I mean, that is my impression, and I -cannot--I couldn't swear. I can give you the impression to the best of -my knowledge, but here is one thing that I know. I am in that area, I -think the television is to my left. I turned to make sure the people -stay out of way. Some of the previous instructions--can I go back? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Captain JONES. Some of the previous instructions that I had given to -this officer here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Here? - -Captain JONES. I'm sorry, just outside of the swinging doors leading -into the basement of the city hall and just after clearing the jail -office of the reporters, just keep the people out of the area. I told -both the officers and the newsmen there, "When the prisoner comes down, -you will not be allowed in this area. You will not be allowed to step -forward to take pictures, or converse with the prisoner." - -Mr. HUBERT. You gave that instruction? - -Captain JONES. I gave this instruction to them. I can't say to this -officer, or to that officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Captain JONES. Things had changed. First, I was under the impression -that the armored car would back all the way down. I didn't know whether -it could get all the way down, may do it at some intermediate point. If -it comes all the way down there would be a line. That was the--that was -where I wanted the officer here coming out of the jail office. The door -of the vehicle that opens---- - -Mr. HUBERT. I say, that was your idea? - -Captain JONES. It was my idea, if the transporting vehicle backs all -the way to the jail door. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Captain JONES. If it comes partially down here and has to stop, which -would be somewhere around this area here [indicating], the--just -past--just at the point where the ramp starts to rise there is a beam, -I believe, or low point in the ceiling there, that if it cannot get -to that point these officers in the line here can form an =L=-shaped -line around the prisoner, between them and the two sides where the -news media had been told to stay and form a buffer in between to walk -up there. Then the change--going to put two cars up there. There is no -reason why that back car can't get all the way back to the jail office. -The original plan would be that the line of officers would be from the -jail door to the vehicle. Then they say, "Here he comes," and I am off -up here, to the point that I indicated on the map. It is too late to -get the people out of the way of the car and form the line. I am aware -that Oswald is already coming because of the furor, so, I was trying to -keep everybody out of the way and keep the way clear and I heard a shot. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Captain JONES. And I place that as to why it is my last awareness -of--the back car is ahead of, towards Commerce Street. The prisoner -is coming from back here [indicating]. The car is backing like this -[indicating]. I am looking at---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You were looking at the automobile? - -Captain JONES. At the automobile. They say, "Here he comes." I turned -and these people back this way---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Looking away from the direction? - -Captain JONES. Into this basement parking area. I heard a shot, and I -distinctly remember looking over my left shoulder and behind me to the -scene of the scuffle. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you see? - -Captain JONES. Just mass confusion of people. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; let me ask you this; had you at any time seen -Ruby in the basement? - -Captain JONES. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the time of the shooting, did you see him? - -Captain JONES. Not at the moment of the shooting. I was looking out -into the basement area, parking area. - -Mr. HUBERT. After the shooting, did you see him? - -Captain JONES. I did; after he was in custody and on his feet and just -prior to them taking him into the jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him then? - -Captain JONES. At that time, after having someone say it was Jack Ruby, -then I did recognize him as Jack Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything? - -Captain JONES. No, sir; in fact, I wasn't that close to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything more to do with Ruby? Did you see him -after that? - -Captain JONES. Can I continue on the chronological thing there? I don't -believe I did see him---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. - -Captain JONES. It will be just about that same thing that after I -turned and looking back, and also someone running out to the street, -out at the extreme edges of the crowd and all, and that is when I -hollered, "Block the exits." Or "bar the exits," or "don't let anybody -out." Or--I couldn't tell you the words I used. I shouted over my -shoulder and took a few running steps and shouting to the officers, for -some of them was running down towards the scene that I yelled, "Block -the exits, don't let anybody out." The two or three officers stopped. -I couldn't tell you who they are, and then I turned and went back down -to the scene or near the scene of the shooting, somebody says, it was -Jack Ruby. In fact, it was said more than once. I heard the words--and -they got the man standing up. I can see his head and I do recognize in -my mind that it is Jack Ruby, but--about to get him in the jail office, -shouted to that officer that way, whether he heard me or not, I don't -know, but this man here Lieutenant Swain [indicating] was having a lot -of difficulty. He was standing between point "B" on the driveway and -this circle, approximately. Standing near the television cameras, and -having difficulty keeping the television men from getting down in the -driveway. So I stopped there and I assisted him in keeping those people -back for a few minutes until we can get it cleared up. We get that more -or less under control. The people are not trying to force their way in -there, and I go into the jail office and see Oswald lying on the floor -with a bullet hole in the left side, upper rib cage, it appears to me. -His shirt has been pulled up. Whether, at that time Ruby was still in -the jail office or had started upstairs, he--it seems to me possibly he -was getting on the elevator, but I can't say for sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to Ruby at that time? - -Captain JONES. I did not speak to Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him? - -Captain JONES. There--if that was him getting on the elevator, or if he -was in there. After that, no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the clearing of the -basement area at an earlier time? - -Captain JONES. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever told as to what the original route would be -from the police department to the county jail? - -Captain JONES. I was never told by some officer coming to me and -saying, this is the route. As I said, I heard some of the higher -ranking officers talking of a possible route, but I was on a -long-distance phone call at a desk nearby. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you can say to me now that you really did not know the -planned route? - -Captain JONES. I was not told, and I do not know for sure what route -they were going to take. I was aware of talk and some routing being -planned. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when you first heard that Ruby was supposed -to have come down the Main Street ramp? - -Captain JONES. I don't remember; I don't understand that question, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way; you have heard since that Ruby -claims that he came down the Main Street ramp? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first heard that? - -Captain JONES. When I first heard that it was probably as a result of -me being in charge for the Police Department Committee investigating -the operational security about that transfer, and why it broke down, -and that heading that committee, I am sure that was passed to me by -some of the officers who had talked to him following his arrest. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, later, on the date of the 24th, or could it -have been later than that? - -Captain JONES. If I heard it prior to that, or heard rumors, the first -official knowledge that I do have would have been even following -Thanksgiving Day, for that is the time I was called back from the -vacation and called from vacation to head that investigation, and it -was subsequent to that that we had our investigation. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that if you heard anything about Ruby's version of -how he got there, it would have been just passed on to you prior to -going on your vacation? That is to say, you would have heard it from -someone---- - -Captain JONES. I would have heard it--or put out on the radio or -newspapers or some source like that. I could have read that. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you go on vacation? - -Captain JONES. I left here---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Dallas? - -Captain JONES. I left Dallas about 7:30 on Thanksgiving morning and got -back in town at 8 o'clock that night. Drove to Shreveport, spent 4 or 5 -hours with my father and ate lunch and came back. They called for me by -the time I got there. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were not on the special committee to investigate -security until that time? - -Captain JONES. When I returned, went to Chief Stevenson's house that -night. He told me what they had in mind. I reported for that the -morning following Thanksgiving, Friday morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain, is there anything else you want to state -concerning the facts, in your deposition this morning? - -Captain JONES. I can think of no other at this time, Mr. Hubert. I only -wish there was some definite facts I could give you, and wish I could -have been more definite in my answers, but I can think of no other -right now. We have covered the situation pretty thoroughly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of the -Commission, other than myself? - -Captain JONES. No, sir; I'm sure I haven't. I mean I would remember -that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean, you have been interviewed by me prior to the -commencement of this deposition, isn't that correct? - -Captain JONES. We went over the details briefly a while ago; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was this morning? - -Captain JONES. That was this morning; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell me whether you observed any -inconsistencies between the interview that you had with me this morning -and your testimony in this deposition? - -Captain JONES. I am not aware of any, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you provided any material information in that -interview with me this morning which has not been talked about in the -record of this deposition today? - -Captain JONES. I don't know of any, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all, sir. Captain, if you have anything -else to say---- - -Captain JONES. I will be happy--if there is anything that I can say -that will shed some light on the truth, that's what I want, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything at all that you haven't said to me, or -during the interview, or during any statements that you may have made -to anybody which you would like to say now? - -Captain JONES. I can think of none--I got--I told you the facts as I -know them. The book that the Commission has, has a copy of--has the -conclusions that were reached by our Committee, and those are just -opinions based on our investigation of it and certainly we do have -opinion on it but I have tried to stay away from my opinion, and--I -will answer any questions in the future that you or any member of your -Commission wants to know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. Let me say that if you should think of -anything that has been omitted please feel free to call upon me or any -member of the Commission staff to convey that information. - -Once again I thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission. - -Captain JONES. Thank you. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just a moment. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that I am recommencing this deposition about a -minute after it finished. You are still under the same oath, of course, -that you were before. - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that you did prepare, or it was prepared under -your supervision, a chart, or diagram that showed the basement area, -and by the use of circles and identifying code showed the positions of -individuals. - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; that was prepared under my direction by an -officer and places people who were not available to our office in this -city, where they were placed by the statements, or statements of people -who were nearby and said they were there. That was to the best of our -ability to determine where they were at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I recall it, that was quite a large chart, wasn't it? - -Captain JONES. The original that they made. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it showed the positions of people like that by circles -in which numbers were---- - -Captain JONES. Were numbered. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think you used a color as well? - -Captain JONES. Color to denote the occupation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whether reserve officers---- - -Captain JONES. Designated from---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Newspapermen. - -Captain JONES. And those numbers applied to one other, then they -applied to the number of the page in the book of the ones they took -affidavits from. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that these circles with the number in it -designating the position of a particular individual, that same number -was used to identify his report? - -Captain JONES. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. In your security report? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But note for the record: The report which Captain Jones is -referring has been designated as Commission Report No. 81-A. This is a -copy of that, isn't it? - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir. That is it. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. So, that the chart really is an estimation based -upon the persons involved, what they said themselves, and also as to -what other people said as to where they were. - -Captain JONES. Yes, sir; we were limited as to the miles and distances -of contacting some of the witnesses. - -Mr. HUBERT. Once again I thank you for appearing. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LT. JACK REVILL - -The testimony of Lt. Jack Revill was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 31, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Jack Revill [spelling] -R-e-v-i-l-l-e. - -Lieutenant REVILL. No. No "e." - -Mr. HUBERT. No "e"? But two "l's." - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the -provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint -resolution of Congress No. 137, in the rules and procedures adopted -by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint -resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death -of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Lieutenant Revill, the -nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about -the death of Oswald and any other facts you may know about the general -inquiry. - -Now, Lieutenant Revill, you have appeared here today by virtue of -a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is -the general counsel of the Commission. And under the rules of the -Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the -taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may -waive that 3-day written notice. Do you wish to do so? Do you wish to -waive the 3-day---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. I will waive it, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, let's swear you. - -If you will stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to -tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. State your name, please. - -Lieutenant REVILL. My name is Jack Revill. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Lieutenant REVILL. My age is 34 years of age. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? - -Lieutenant REVILL. My residence is Dallas, Tex., 5617 Meadowick Lane. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I'm employed by the Dallas Police Department, -lieutenant of the police. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I have been employed by this police department for a -period of 13 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you start? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I was employed and assigned a patrolman. From there -I was promoted to my present rank of lieutenant. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive your present rank? - -Lieutenant REVILL. June 26, 1958. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what are your specific functions or duties or -assignments within the department? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I am presently assigned as section supervisor of -criminal intelligence, which is a part of the Special Service Bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that section? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Since February of 1959. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior there? - -Lieutenant REVILL. My immediate supervisor is Capt. W. P. Gannaway. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then over him? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Chief Curry. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don't work for any other captain or -supervisor? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You report to the Chief himself, I mean, you don't go -through Stevenson or Batchelor? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Just directly to the Chief. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to state briefly, so that we get -the full story, just what function you have had with respect to the -investigation of the shooting of Oswald. First let me ask you: Were you -present when Oswald was shot? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the transfer of Oswald? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty that day? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; later I was, but not the morning of the -shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Not at the time of the shooting? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, go ahead and tell us about just what you did -with reference to the investigation of this. - -Lieutenant REVILL. After Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald I was -assigned to an investigative committee to determine how and why Jack -Ruby gained access to the basement of the city hall. This committee was -comprised of myself, Lt. F. I. Cornwall, Lt. P. G. McCaghren, Lt. C. C. -Wallace, Capt. O. A. Jones and Inspector Sawyer, and I do not recall -his initials, but our function was to interview the people present in -the basement on the morning of the shooting, and any other leads that -might be developed from these interviews. We were to follow up on these. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did the official committee you have just mentioned -come into existence and who put it in existence and who gave you your -orders? - -Lieutenant REVILL. This committee was formed--created at the orders of -Chief J. E. Curry. The exact date I do not recall. It was in December. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go ahead. - -Lieutenant REVILL. As previously stated, our function was to interview -these people. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had any other interviews of these people been made prior to -the commencement of the functions of your committee? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Interviews, as such, no. Most of the officers had -submitted written reports as to their specific duties on the morning of -November 24, 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when that was done? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I presume that it was done on the date of the -shooting and immediately thereafter. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact, as I recall it, that the individual -reports made by every officer who was in the basement more or less -followed a form in the sense that they were submitted a list of -questions, at least they had to answer that much, and they could, -perhaps, go further if they wanted to? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I believe the form letter you make reference to -was given to the police reserve officers. These are the people that I -devoted my efforts toward, the police reserve, but Lieutenant Cornwall -and I, our duty was to interview these reserve policemen. - -Lieutenant McCaghren, O. A. Jones and Wallace interviewed the sworn -officers. - -Mr. HUBERT. By the way, where is Cornwall now? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He is in Louisville, Ky., at the Southern Police -Institute. He left a week ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I understand that he is going to be there---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. 3 months. - -Mr. HUBERT. 3 months? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Now, Lieutenant Cornwall and I were together -throughout the existence of this committee. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the document entitled, "Investigation -of the Operation and Security Involved on the Transfer of Lee Harvey -Oswald, on November 24, 1963," which I now show you? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that I am showing Lieutenant Revill, a -document which has been identified as Commission's Report 81-A. Are you -familiar with the letter of transmittal of this report dated December -16th, 1963, which is at the first part of the report, and runs for 11 -pages, signed by Sawyer, Westbrook, and Jones? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. HUBERT. I believe that this report, in its very last paragraph, -says that you have read it and concur? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Some of the reports in there are actually signed by you? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an officer, a reserve officer by the name of -Mayo? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Mayo? - -Mr. HUBERT. Lamar Mayo. I think his civilian employment is in--he is an -accountant or chief of credit department of Sears, Roebuck here. - -Lieutenant REVILL. This is R. L. Mayo? - -Mr. HUBERT. It could be R. L. Mayo. - -Lieutenant REVILL. I looked here and I found a copy of an interview of -a reserve officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, signed by myself and Lieutenant -Cornwall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Lamar W.? - -Lieutenant REVILL. We do have an L. W. Mayo. It is possible that we -made an error on this up here, the girl---- - -Mr. HUBERT. It is L. W. Mayo, I think. - -Lieutenant REVILL. It will be the same. I was looking at his report, -and what we had put in our report about his position or duty assignment -and what happened here, they---- - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are talking about---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. In the report. It is page 70. - -Mr. HUBERT. Page 70 of Commission's Document 81-A. - -Lieutenant REVILL. What happened, the secretary in typing the report -put the wrong initial. She placed R. L. Mayo, and it should read L. W. -Mayo. - -Mr. HUBERT. I noticed that you are talking about the part of the letter -which starts off "Re: interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, -826," that being a heading on the letter of December 3, 1963, but the -next document also numbered page 70, in Commission's Document 81-A, -shows that the initial report dated November 26, addressed to Chief -Curry is signed, "L. W. Mayo," and it is your thought--that it is an -error in the first document which is entitled, "Interview of Reserve -Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo," and it should have been, "L. W. Mayo.?" - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion that that is the same person? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; this is my opinion. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that Sergeant Mayo, when he was interviewed -by you stated that he had been approached by some individual who was -either a minister or posing to be a minister in any case, who was -trying to get into the jail through the Commerce Street entrance on -November 24, prior to the shooting, stating that he wanted to see -Oswald, and that you had told him, well, that wasn't pertinent to your -inquiry, and all I want to do is ask you what--if it is true, and just -what comment do you have to make on it? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I don't recall making that, because it would have -been pertinent to my inquiry, because in the reports I make reference -to an individual who was on the street trying to get in who was wearing -a Whitehouse--a streamer with the words, "Whitehouse Press." This, to -me, was pertinent, and this minister--of course, the minister wanted to -see Oswald prior to the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. In other words, your statement is that you do not -recollect that Mayo made such a statement to you? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he might have made such a statement, but---- - -Mr. HUBERT. If he did, your thought would be you would have put it in? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; because to me it would have been -pertinent. Anything. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his statement to you, Mayo to you, that after -the shooting when Mayo was stationed in the Main Street ramp that -there was a man who came to Mayo, I think, identified himself as Ruby's -roommate, and was trying to get in to see Ruby, that being after the -shooting. Do you recall that Mayo reported that during the course of -the interview? - -Lieutenant REVILL. It seems like I do recall Mayo saying something like -that, and I believe he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore of the -Special Service Bureau. I believe he told me that, but I don't see it -here and I don't know why we omitted that, but I think we--I do recall -him making such a statement. George Senator, I believe he would have -been the individual. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. He described him as having a slight limp, too, I think -he said. - -Lieutenant REVILL. This, I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you do not recall right now why it was not made a part -of the interview? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Just an oversight on my part. It should have been -listed here. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is one other thing that Mayo states that he told you, -which apparently is not in the report, that is about a man and a woman -who had been hanging around the Main Street entrance apparently after -the shooting. Apparently they were tourists from Springfield, Ill., and -they wanted to take some pictures and stated that to you that---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not state this to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. As to that episode, then, you do not recall that that was -stated to you? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I would say that he did not relate this to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I see the three episodes then, as to the first one -regarding the minister, your thought is that he may have stated to you, -but you do not remember? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I don't recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you recall why he omitted it from your report? - -Lieutenant REVILL. This might have happened. It was subsequent to this -I found a preacher who wanted to talk to Oswald, and he went to Chief -Batchelor's office, and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. When subsequent to what? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Subsequent to the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, prior to the shooting, and subsequently--he was -probably talking to--let's see, he arrived at city hall at 9:30. This -preacher's name is Ray Rushing. He is an evangelist, Radio Evangelist. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was reported and the man was interviewed? - -Lieutenant REVILL. It was not reported because I myself found this man. - -Mr. HUBERT. But---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. There is no report on it, because it is in--it -had nothing to do with the shooting. He had gone to Sheriff Decker's -office, and Decker referred him to the city thinking that Oswald had -not been transferred, so, he came to the city hall and went to the -third floor, and--by the way, he rode up on the elevator with Jack -Ruby, now---- - -Mr. HUBERT. This Rushing? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Rode to the third floor---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. Now, he says this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, he says this. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, for the past 7 weeks I have been assigned to -the district attorney's office, the prosecution of Ruby, running down -leads and interviewing witnesses and this preacher was one of the -people that we located, and he related this story to me, that he rode -up on the elevator with Jack Ruby on the morning of November 24. Mr. -Wade did not use this man. He didn't need the testimony, because he had -placed Ruby there the morning of the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Rushing says that he rode up with Ruby on -the morning of the 24th, prior to the shooting? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his name? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Ray Rushing. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't know how we could reach him? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No; he lives in Richardson, Tex.--correction, -please--Plano, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that? - -Lieutenant REVILL. P-l-a-n-o, north of Richardson, and at this time he -does not have a phone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you make a report on the interview with him? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I did not. This was an interview conducted -by the--at the district attorney's office in the presence of Assistant -District Attorney Alexander. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Rushing say what time that was? - -Lieutenant REVILL. 9:30. He was sure of the time, because he had let -his wife and family out at the First Baptist Church, and traveled -directly to the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he sure it was Sunday the 24th? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he had gone there to speak to Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did he recognize Ruby? Did he say? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He said he recognized him from the newspaper article -that appeared that day, and later days. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he had any conversation with him? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He talked about the weather. I asked him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he was--whether he saw Ruby there -afterwards? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He said he turned to the right and--went up to -the third floor and after arriving on the third floor, he turned to -the right and went to the administrative office and talked to Chief -Assistant Batchelor. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, anyhow, after you interviewed this man Rushing, you -turned over the information concerning your interview to Assistant -District Attorney Alexander? - -Lieutenant REVILL. What I did is, I interviewed Mr. Rushing one night -and asked him if he could come to the district attorney's office and -relate this to Mr. Wade. Possibility that the district attorney might -use him as a witness, and Alexander was of the opinion that the man -might be mistaken. That he saw this as a means of getting publicity. Of -course, I disagree with that thinking. I think that the man is truthful -in that he is reporting what he thinks he saw. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you interviewed him did he give you what you -considered a fairly accurate description of Ruby? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. Of course, so many photographs had appeared in -the newspapers and it would be easy for someone to---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you interview him? - -Lieutenant REVILL. At the district attorney's office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you a specific address in Plano? - -Lieutenant REVILL. It is out in the country. It is a box number. I -can't---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What is he? A Baptist minister? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He is, yes; I guess he would be. He attends the -First Baptist Church. He is one of these Evangelist--that his calling -is to dry up the liquor industry, throughout the nation, so they tell -me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he state to you what his purpose was in seeing Oswald? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, he felt that Oswald needed spiritual guidance -at that time. He was in trouble and he felt like he could possibly help -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he got to see Oswald? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He did not get to see him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how he got into this building? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He walked into the building. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any difficulty getting in? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Not at that time, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether he was stopped and asked for -identification by anyone? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I don't believe he was. At that time, of -course, I don't know for sure--I don't know that they were--had the -building secured. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the second thing that Mayo told you. To wit, -about Ruby's roommate who may or may not be Senator, you do recall that -he said that, but you don't know why it was left out of the---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. It was an oversight. It seems as though I do recall -him telling me something about that, and that he referred this man to -Lieutenant Gilmore, who was assigned to the special service section. - -Mr. HUBERT. The third thing, that man and wife from Springfield, Ill., -you have no recollection of that? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no recollection whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall interviewing Pat Dean? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Sergeant Dean? No, sir; I did not interview Sergeant -Dean. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or Archer? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; these interviews were conducted by -Lieutenant McCaghren and Wallace. Now, Dean, being a uniformed officer, -he might have been interviewed by Captain Westbrook. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your function was to find out how Ruby got into the---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. Basement. This basement; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn of Ruby's version that he came in -the Main Street entrance? - -Lieutenant REVILL. When I first learned it? I read it in the newspaper. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it on the 24th? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, actually, you hadn't been assigned the job---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no, sir. What happened, my people were--the -people, the detectives assigned to my unit and myself were assigned -to the Trade Mart, where Mr. Kennedy was to speak. Upon hearing of -the shooting, three of us, or four of us, went to the Texas School -Book Depository and started a systematical search and there were many, -many officers present at that time. I made a report to Chief Lumpkin -naming all of the officers that I could recall being there. This was -on a Friday. The following Saturday, the next day, we were to locate -witnesses. People who were employed at the School Book Depository, -get them and bring them to Captain Fritz' office. This took all day. -Saturday night we terminated and went home approximately 8 o'clock. The -next morning none of us were assigned to duty. Now, by that I mean the -intelligence unit. I was at home and I saw the shooting on television -and from there I got a phone call to report to Mayor Cabell's home, -because there had been a threat on his life. I went to Washington with -Mr. Cabell that night and got back the next day. - -Mr. HUBERT. You haven't, then, spoken to Dean at all about how Ruby got -into the basement or how Ruby, says he got into the basement? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I am sure I have discussed it with him, but as far -as a formal interview; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, your first knowledge didn't come from any -particular individual, but from the newspaper? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Newspaper. - -Mr. HUBERT. In your discussion with Dean, do you recall whether he -stated to you how he found out about Ruby's alleged entry through the -Main Street ramp? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the reserve officer by the name of Holly? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Holly? Yes, sir; I talked to Mr. Holly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the conversation? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about it, please? - -Lieutenant REVILL. If I may find the report. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is an index there. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; and they are filed alphabetically. Ordinarily I -can find it probably easier this way. Holly, yes, Holly was interviewed -and he stated that he had been assigned to a traffic corner and after -the shooting occurred he was reassigned to Parkland Hospital, and -that while there some unknown police reservist told him that he had -observed, or admitted Ruby into the basement of the city hall, and that -Ruby had presented press credentials. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. Well, what we did, we have photographs of all of -the police reserve, and Holly could not identify anyone as being this -officer, or reserve officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did this take place, that is to say, where was Holly -shown these pictures? - -Lieutenant REVILL. In the city hall, in the special services bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that when Holly was interviewed he was -interviewed by Captain Solomon? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Well, Holly was interviewed by Captain Solomon, and -both Lieutenant Cornwall and I. - -Mr. HUBERT. All at once? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No; see what happened, Holly came to us with his -story. Well, we jumped on it because there might be something to it, -so I called Captain Solomon, who has access to all of the records -and photographs of the reserve officers, and he brought them to the -special services bureau in the city hall. Holly was unable to identify -this officer. We talked to Captain Arnett, who is a reserve captain, -and both Solomon and Arnett were of the opinion that Holly might be -fabricating this thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now; what did Holly say---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. Holly---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That this reserve officer told him? - -Lieutenant REVILL. That he had seen Ruby in the basement of the city -hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials to someone in the -basement of the city hall. We were never able to locate this reserve -officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Holly tell you that a reserve officer, possibly the -same one, possibly another, had told him that he had seen Ruby coming -down the ramp, Main Street ramp, and just about a minute before the -shooting? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; Holly did not say that to me. I found a -reserve officer who was present in the basement of the city hall who -saw some individual coming down the ramp, the Main Street ramp. - -He could not identify this person as being Ruby. As you said, -approximately a minute or minute and a half after the shooting--I mean, -prior to the shooting. Have you got a---- - -Mr. HUBERT. I don't want to suggest anything to you, but to assist you, -tell me if you don't recognize the name, Officer Newman? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I believe that it is Newman. I can show you. You--he -was assigned---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you interview Newman? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Newman said that he had not recognized Jack Ruby? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; he did not recognize the man coming down the -ramp, and the distance involved, I can readily see why he could not -identify him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Newman mention to you in your interview that as a -matter of fact, there were two people he saw in the basement area. One, -a man coming down the ramp about a minute before the shooting, and -another person who jumped the rail down there from the parking area -into the ramp on the Main Street side, but that he could not identify -either? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that, as to the man jumping the rail he didn't know -whether it was before the shooting or after. - -Lieutenant REVILL. The man that he is making reference to jumping over -the rail was an electrician, and this was prior to the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was this Chabot? [Spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Tommy Chabot, I believe he is a mechanic. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he, Newman, identify him as such? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Newman did not identify him as such, nor did he -identify the man running down the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I can understand then that when he saw the man -running down the ramp he did not know who that was, but did he tell -you later he identified that man as being Ruby by comparing him to the -pictures? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Holly was asked to pick out the reserve officer -who had told him what you said he did in the hospital, was Captain -Solomon present? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; Solomon was present and had brought these -photographs to special services bureau, and he was unable to identify -any of these people. - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn't pick out any picture at all? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You know, of your own knowledge, whether or not Solomon had -another interview with this man? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard that Holly actually did pick out a -picture in an interview with Solomon and state that he thought that was -the reserve officer who had spoken to him. Now, apparently that didn't -happen when you were present? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I don't recall this happening in my -presence. I do recall, I believe, Holly thinking that a specific -officer was the individual that--we interviewed this officer and he was -not the one, and I couldn't tell you his name, because we talked to so -many of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then Holly did say that he thought that this might be the -individual, and he picked out then a particular picture? - -Lieutenant REVILL. As I recall, he picked out a picture, and as it -turned out, the man that he picked out wasn't even present at the -basement of the city hall. He had been fishing, was on a fishing -trip, and I talked to this reserve officer, I couldn't tell you his -name. There were two of them that came from Arlington directly to the -hospital. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, it wasn't Newman? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he was not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Newman is a reserve officer? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, the picture Holly picked out as being possibly the -man who told him about seeing someone coming through with a pass or -something like that sort was not Newman? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. That reserve officer was interviewed? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he was interviewed and the report is in -here, if I could find it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your recollection of the interview was that he wasn't -even in the place at all? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He had been fishing. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection at all of Holly picking out -Newman's picture? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not pick out Newman's picture. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, in your---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. In my presence. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor, have you heard that he picked out Newman's picture -when you were not there? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I have not heard this. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think the report indicates that you interviewed Ruby? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; on two occasions. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the first one? - -Lieutenant REVILL. The first occasion, the date would have been on the -Sunday following the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? One week later? - -Lieutenant REVILL. One week later, yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I can show you a calendar of---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. I can give you the date. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you do so? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Would have been on December the 1st in the county -jail. Present at that interview was Lieutenant Cornwall, a jailer, -whose name I do not recall. This man was present at both interviews, at -Mr. Decker's request. - -Mr. HUBERT. The jailer was? - -Lieutenant REVILL. The jailer; yes, sir. And this proposed interview -took place just outside the cell where Ruby was confined in, I believe -it would be the chief jailer's office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about what happened? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; Lieutenant Cornwall and I, after -interviewing all these people, trying to determine how Ruby got into -the basement, decided that the best thing was to talk to Ruby himself, -so, we finally got clearance to go talk to him and we did, and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, by that time you had already heard from the press that -he had said that he had come through the Main Street ramp? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Something to the effect that, "You may not believe -me, but I walked down the ramp." Anyway at the interview, Ruby was -there with Cornwall and I, and this unknown jailer, and he refused -to disclose how he gained access into the basement stating that this -is a part of his defense, so, we then had Sheriff Decker call Tom -Howard, who was representing Ruby at that time as a legal counsel. -Mr. Howard came to the jail and was present throughout the interview. -Ruby was very precise as to his activities on Friday, the date of the -shooting of President Kennedy. He refused to discuss with us any of -his activities on Saturday, November 23 or November 24, the day of the -shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any reason? - -Lieutenant REVILL. This was part of his defense, so he stated. The -interview approximately took 45 minutes. It was a lot of---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him specifically whether the story in the -press, that he had come through the Main Street entrance, was correct -or not correct? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I asked him this, and he refused to -discuss it. He said that he did not want to get anyone in trouble. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you pursue that? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. I was assigned to this committee to find -out what happened and I really wasn't concerned who we got in trouble, -because if someone was wrong, then they suffer the consequences and I -asked him about officers by name who were present in the basement, if -they had seen him or talked to him, and he wouldn't discuss it. Knowing -Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby is the type of individual that can't be anywhere -for a period of time without talking to someone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him specifically Roy Vaughn's name? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; the officer---- - -Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street exit? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. He made no comment? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he wouldn't discuss this. I asked him -about Detective Harrison. The films showed that Ruby was standing at -Harrison's shoulder. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about that? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He became very upset. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did--describe how he was upset? - -Lieutenant REVILL. This is when he said--well, he got real angry at me -and cussed me and told me---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Ruby did? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Oh, yes; told me I was a hatchet man and trying to -get the man's job. - -Mr. HUBERT. When he said you were trying to get the man's job, that is -Harrison's job? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He meant Harrison's job, so, what I did, was later -got it approved to put Harrison on the polygraph to determine if he had -seen Ruby prior to the shooting and if he had talked to Ruby. Well, the -polygraph examination showed that Harrison had no knowledge of Ruby -being present. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you interview Harrison, too? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. Showed him the film. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you sort of put him through any cross examination? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion of his veracity? Do you think he is -telling the truth? - -Lieutenant REVILL. If you believe a polygraph examination; he is. - -Mr. HUBERT. I was interested in your impression. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; and if this is being recorded, then I'd -rather not state an opinion as to his truth and veracity. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you mention on that first occasion any -other names to Ruby? I think you have mentioned already, Vaughn and---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. I mentioned the officers who were in the positions -to have seen Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him the name of Daniels, ex-police -officer? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I may have. I might have asked him if he knew -Daniels. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, that is all of your questions. He refused -to discuss and at this time he--his lawyer wasn't present? - -Lieutenant REVILL. On the second interview, which would have occurred -on December the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave that, I want to get a little bit more -information concerning this, I think you said, "Fit of anger," when he -cursed you and told you you were a hatchet man. - -Lieutenant REVILL. What upset him---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say any other things? - -Lieutenant REVILL. What upset him was that I was involved in this -thing. When I walked in he said something to the effect, "Well, -the Intelligence people are involved in it now. They think I am a -Communist." I don't know what gave him that idea, but I have known -Jack Ruby since 1953. I have never been a friend with him. I knew him -enough to talk to him. Lieutenant Cornwall took the position of being -his friend, and I was the foe, and that is the way we conducted our -interview. We were unable to get any information from him. - -Mr. HUBERT. But the mention of Harrison, apparently is the thing that -set---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. Set him off, and I have never been satisfied, -personally, with Harrison's statement. Of course, this is my personal -opinion. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that kind of answers the other question. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; it does. They were reluctant--I say, "They," -the other members of the committee were reluctant to have him submitted -to a polygraph examination, but I thought that this was one way of -determining if he was truthful or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was as a result of your insistence that he was put under -one? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, perhaps we can go to the second interview. On -what date was that? - -Lieutenant REVILL. This would have occurred on the 3d of December. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tuesday? - -Lieutenant REVILL. On a Tuesday, yes, sir. The afternoon of December 3. -What we had been attempting to do was to put Jack Ruby on a polygraph -machine, and his lawyer, Tom Howard, had been approached during the -first interview as to doing this. He stated that there were other -lawyers coming into the case and that he would have to have their -permission before agreeing to let Jack take this examination. - -On Monday we communicated with Tom by telephone and he kept hedging -with us, and telling us he had not heard from the other lawyers. By -"Tom," I mean Tom Howard, the lawyer. On Tuesday, we discussed it again -with him and he stated that he was still trying to work this thing out. -So, Cornwall and I again decided--that we would go directly to Jack -Ruby. He was the person involved, and we would give him the opportunity -to submit to the examination. If he wanted to, fine. If he doesn't want -to then it's also fine. So, we went to Jack on the 2d--on the 3d of -December and gave him the opportunity to take the polygraph. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you asked him? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Asked him, yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was his lawyer present then? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Not in the beginning. We later called Tom Howard to -the interview so that he could be present, and they refused to have -Jack submitted. - -Mr. HUBERT. At first when you asked Jack about going on the polygraph -machine prior to Tom Howard's being present, what did he say? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He said--during the second interview he said that -his lawyer would have to---- - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then his lawyer came and---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. They declined. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk about the basement? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Tried to. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the result of that? - -Lieutenant REVILL. And again, this was part of their defense, and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any anger at you then? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I think it was a carryover from the first -interview, but this was a strategy that we used. Let him be angry with -me, thinking maybe that he might tell us something, but he never did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention Harrison's name on the second interview? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I possibly did, but at this time he was more -composed, and there was no--I don't recall any outbursts. - -Mr. HUBERT. I gather that the second interview was not fruitful, in -that nothing---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. No information was gathered? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Neither interview was fruitful, other than from his -outburst. It led me to believe that possibly he had talked to some -officer, or had been seen by some officer prior to the shooting, but I -was never able to confirm this. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the time you saw Ruby, I take it you had not interviewed -this man, Ray Rushing? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And didn't know anything about it? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. By the way, how did you find out about it? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He called me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ray Rushing called you? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I had assisted him, oh, approximately a year -ago on a problem he was having with one of his preachers. He has got -several preachers in his employment, and it was--involved a theft, and -I was able to assist him, and he called me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What date, about? - -Lieutenant REVILL. When he called me? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Lieutenant REVILL. It was during the trial. During the picking of the -jurors. The specific date, I do not recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, he came in and you interviewed him and made a -verbal report to Alexander. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Oh, Alexander was present at the interview. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the result of that interview was passed -to the FBI or to any Government agencies? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor is there a written report? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no written report. Rushing was reluctant to -take the stand. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, he did. Because of his fight with the liquor -industry they would use this to fight him with. Any publicity they -might get of a derogatory nature would hurt him. We tried to emphasize -the point that this would not be derogatory publicity. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you point out to him that the position was somewhat -inconsistent with the fact that he was a volunteer? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he say? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He decided he would testify if his testimony was -needed. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his statement as to his original motivation for -reporting this matter, that is to say, that he had seen Ruby? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I don't believe he ever said what motivated him to -report this incident. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever asked, that you know of, why he had delayed so -long? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I asked him that myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he say? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Well, he used the same story, that he did not want -to become involved in this thing because of his fight or his crusade to -dry up the liquor industry. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, how did he then explain the fact that he had -volunteered? - -Lieutenant REVILL. He didn't explain it. Now, this is an assumption on -my part. I believe this is why Mr. Alexander was reluctant to use him, -because Mr. Rushing is the type that there is a Communist under each -tree or each rock. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is Rushing? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Late forty's, or early fifty's. - -Mr. HUBERT. Has he been in the Dallas area long? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he had just recently moved to Dallas from -South Dakota. He tells me he is a personal friend of Senator Mundt and -the Governor of South Dakota and other influential people, which may or -may not be true. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you check to see whether he actually does have a church? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he is on the radio throughout the Nation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you showed me prior to the commencement of this -deposition, a large folder which you identified as--which is identified -from the title page of the jacket cover "File No. INT--" - -Lieutenant REVILL. That's intelligence. - -Mr. HUBERT. "Intelligence 25--1 through INT--intelligence 25--subject -Jack Ruby, DPD," which, I believe means Dallas Police Department. -"36398," which is the jacket, I suppose, and folder of the special -services bureau? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Well, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you also advise me that most of this information, or -most of this folder, all except actually the first five pages are -reports that have been built up after the shooting? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; this is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. You state to me also, I think, that this jacket has been -made available to the Secret Service? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they make copies of it? Do you know? - -Lieutenant REVILL. They made copies of much of this information. - -Mr. HUBERT. You dealt with Mr. Sorrels? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Not directly with Mr. Sorrels himself. Some of his -agents. If I might use that, I might be able to explain it more fully. -If it is necessary for the record---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was considering making it a part of the record, -but I don't want, obviously, to take it away from you and I don't have -authority at the present time to subpena it. - -Lieutenant REVILL. I will make you copies of anything you want. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what I wanted to get at. If copies have been -made already and turned over to the Secret Service, that would be -unnecessary. - -Lieutenant REVILL. For example, here was toll calls, telephone -long-distance calls placed from the telephone at the Carousel at -1312-1/2 Commerce. The Ruby residence, at 223 South Ewing, and also -the Vegas Club at 3508 Oak Lawn, and also his sister's residence, Eva -Grant's. - -Mr. HUBERT. As of what date? - -Lieutenant REVILL. These go back to September 24, 1963, -through--correction on that. Some of them go back to May of 1963. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's deal with it this way, suppose I check to see -how much of this the Secret Service, or the FBI has? - -Lieutenant REVILL. The FBI has this, because I gave it to them -personally. - -Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Of this particular---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Analyses of phone calls? - -Lieutenant REVILL. The phone calls. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, dealing with the whole report, suppose we do it this -way, if we find that there is not, in possession of one of the Federal -agencies, the entire record, I may ask you at a later time to make it -available for photostating, or if you could do it---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. We can do it. Anything we can do. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then what we would do is that you could execute an -affidavit instead of having to come and make a deposition to the effect -that the attached report is true, is a true and correct copy of the -originals. I think that is possibly the best way. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Any way that it is the easiest for you. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have any other things that you would like -to say? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I can't think of a thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, now---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. Wish there was something I could do to shed some -light on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a part of your function to check out all rumors -concerning connections between Ruby and Oswald? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or between Ruby and other groups from the left, right, and -middle of the road, or whatnot? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; this was our function. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you, in fact, check out those that came to your -attention? - -Lieutenant REVILL. All that came to our attention, yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there a special report on that checkout? - -Lieutenant REVILL. There are many reports. Each lead that came in as a -possible connection, investigation was conducted and a report submitted -concerning that specific rumor. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, every rumor was investigated and an -individual report made on it, but they are not collected together -anyplace? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no synopsis. - -Mr. HUBERT. They are not part of this document 81-A? The investigation -that you identified earlier? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there are copies of these various reports that -could be made available to us? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I can make them available to you. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would appreciate it if you would, because if you have -a lot of that checkout work that would be helpful. How much of a job -would it be to photostat all of those things? Did you turn them over to -the FBI? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or any other Federal agent? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Anything that they wanted we gave to them. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean, this mass of documents, as I -gather, are individual reports on individual rumors and so forth, you -didn't turn those over? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a block? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Now, I say we didn't. Let me qualify this, our -reports that we make up, a copy is submitted to Chief Curry daily. Now, -what he does with these reports, I do not know. He may have turned -these over to some Federal agency. - -Mr. HUBERT. I tell you what I would like for you to do, if you please, -is to find out if they have been turned over to the FBI. I know a lot -of rumors have. - -Lieutenant REVILL. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. It may be that all that you ran out and reported on they -have too, and therefore, it would be repetition to have them in there, -but what we would be interested in is the copy of the reports and -investigation of those reports or rumors that have not been turned over -to the FBI. Now, I wonder when you could let me know? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Let you know today. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Lieutenant REVILL. And if they have not, what we will do is pull from -our file copies, and we will make copies available to you of each and -every investigation that we conducted of a connection, or rumor, or -connection between Ruby and Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, make photostatic copies and turn them over -to me. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would appreciate it and just write at the bottom of -it, if you will, and sign it, that this is one of the investigations -concerning a rumor, conducted by you, or whoever it was. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Do you want this as to each individual report, or -collectively? - -Mr. HUBERT. You would have to initial each individual report so that we -would be sure. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That those are the reports that you referred to in this -deposition. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would be very helpful to me. Then you can turn that -over to me and we will make it a part of this deposition. In other -words, you would certify that these reports are the ones that you were -talking about during this deposition, and that to the best of your -knowledge, they are correct. In effect, it will be as though you were -here or under oath telling us that that is correct and that will close -the record up. The only other way would be to have you come here and -identify each one and I am trying to avoid that---- - -Lieutenant REVILL. Let me ask you a question. These reports that we -make reference to were submitted by officers under my supervision. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; well, I see your point. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Will each one of these officers need to initial -them, or can I do this? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, we'll have the understanding that this was done under -your supervision, that you can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of -every one of them, but that it is a report made in the course of police -department business and that you and the police department rely upon -those reports. - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that will be fine. Have you been interviewed by any -member of the Commission's staff by--prior to the deposition of this -morning, and other than the interview that you and I had just preceding -this interview this morning? - -Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the interview that you and I had this morning -before this deposition began right here in this room have we, in this -deposition, covered all that we talked about in that interview? - -Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there any material information that we talked about in -the interview that has not been brought out in the deposition? - -Lieutenant REVILL. I do not know of any. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's it. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CAPT. JAMES MAURICE SOLOMON - -The testimony of Capt. James Maurice Solomon was taken at 2 p.m., on -March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, -Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon of the Dallas -Police Department. Captain Solomon, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a -member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's -Commission. - -Under the provision of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of -procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive -order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn -deposition from you, Captain Solomon. - -I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Captain Solomon, the nature -of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the -death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you might know about the -general inquiry. - -Captain Solomon, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request -made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on -the staff of the President's Commission. - -Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day -written notice prior to the taking of your deposition. But the rules -also provide that any witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes -to do so. Now, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the -3-day notice? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then; would you please raise your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SOLOMON. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, Captain? - -Mr. SOLOMON. James Maurice Solomon. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, Captain? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Fifty-four. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? - -Mr. SOLOMON. 1502 East Ohio. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation? - -Mr. SOLOMON. My occupation at the present time at the police department -is reserve coordinator. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are a member of the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a member of the department? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Thirty years last September. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your particular assignment now is to coordinate the reserve -affairs? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. SOLOMON. My offices are at the police academy, and I am used out -there in training recruits. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in that same position during the period November -22 to 24, 1963? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to state for the record just how the -reserve program of the Dallas Police Department is set up, because I -don't think we have it in the record otherwise. - -Mr. SOLOMON. Well, I am sure you don't. The reserve operates different -in every city that I know, and just to their particular needs. - -Now, the reserve organization in Dallas is strictly what the name -implies. It is, really a reserve intended to be called upon when there -is a catastrophe, some real bad emergency, to augment our manpower. - -It is a semimilitary organization in that we call it the reserve -platoon. It has three companies commanded by a captain. Each company -has three platoons. And each platoon has three squads. There are -approximately--it fluctuates just a little bit--but there are -approximately 300 men in the organization. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is the reserve captain? - -Mr. SOLOMON. There are four reserve captains. Now, the reserve major -is Major Tropolis, the major in command. We call him the reserve -commander. He is George Tropolis. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who are the captains? - -Mr. SOLOMON. The captains are J. E. Marks, C. O. Arnett--I believe you -talked to him last night--L. C. Crump and O. S. Muller. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do these men train at regular intervals? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. They are all required to go through a training -program of about 72 hours. They do that 1 night a week. Takes about 8 -months to complete that before they are used in any way, before they -are given a uniform or anything of that nature. - -After they complete this training, they are outfitted with a uniform at -their own expense, and from then on the participation that they do is -considered observation training. - -In other words, there is a program set up whereby they report at least -two times a month. We have it set up twice a month, and mandatory that -they come every third month. If they don't we drop them. - -But each reserve is required to report at least once a month for -observation training. He can do this in a squad car, in the jail -office, or dispatcher's office, or in any phase of the police -operation, really, and he is in uniform, and he works right alongside -the regular officer and just assists him in his work in anything he -wants him to do if he has a belligerent prisoner, but still that is -considered observation training. - -Here in the last year or so, we have been using our reserves more -maybe like an auxiliary, but there have been times such as a parade -or football parade--in other words, it wasn't an extreme emergency, -but it was an event that we realized we needed more manpower, and they -were anxious and willing and eager to help us, and they were being in -uniform and were doing a good job. - -You want me to continue? - -Mr. HUBERT. Do these men get any pay for this? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No. There is no pay at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, they buy their own pistol and uniform? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. They buy their own initial uniform. After that their -uniforms are maintained with the old uniforms that the regular officers -outgrow or something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you have said that you are rather strict -as to the training program that these people must observe, otherwise -you drop them? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the basic selection of these people? How do you -go about that? What are the criteria you use to select them? - -Mr. SOLOMON. We have just an application form similar to what anybody -would fill out in applying for a job, which is for their background, -their schooling, what type of work they have been engaged in, where -they have lived, and so forth. Then, of course, I submit that -application to our personnel bureau which runs a background check on -them, criminal and civil, or any court record they might have that -might show their emotional stability or we run a credit check on them -for bad debts or something like that, that kind of indication that they -are not stable. And traffic arrests. - -If it is somebody out of the ordinary, why we are kind of strict -along that score. I have these reserve captains that I just mentioned -that comprise the reserve staff, and each applicant I get after the -personnel board submits their findings, they interview the men, and -they have some information to go on there, and whether he is accepted -to go to school. After they interview him and ask him questions about -trying to feel out if they think he is emotionally suited for that kind -of work. - -Mr. HUBERT. What, in your opinion, is it that interests a man to want -to be in the reserve program? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Well, that may be a vocation a little bit. You know, -before I got into the program, I thought maybe it was just a group of -people that were just trying to--they were just eager, I would say, in -other words. - -I thought they were, how should I say it, I just felt like they were -kind of overeager, or just nosy, so to speak, and they just wanted to -see around. But after I got into the program, I was amazed to find the -caliber of men. I have only been in 7 years. I went in 1957. It was -begun in 1952. And the man that had it then has since made a promotion -to inspector, and I was assigned out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have satisfied yourself, I gather, that -the motivation of these people for getting in the reserves is that they -consider it a civic duty? - -Mr. SOLOMON. A civic duty, yes, sir; civic minded. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is not just that they want the authority of the uniform? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. Of course, we have applicants like that. It -is the duty of the staff, in a drawn-out process of training, which -is really drawn out 8 months, and long enough to observe them, to -eliminate the ones they don't feel are suitable. I nearly always start -off with a class of 50 men and I rarely ever graduate over 30--27 to 30. - -During that period of time some naturally drop out and some I ask to -leave, or just wash out, one way or another, as quickly as I can. After -all, it is a public relations program, and if I understand somebody is -in there that I know will get us in trouble, I find some excuse for him -to leave. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, actually, about 60 percent of the people who start -ultimately get into the program? - -Mr. SOLOMON. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you watch their conduct very carefully? On duty, of -course I know, but off duty too? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Well, yes. We have had a few occasions where a few got -into some trouble. I guess just drinking or some did get into some bad -debts and embarrass us, but we counseled with them. And I have had to -let some go. Percentagewise this hasn't been much greater than in our -regular department. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I want to get to the matter of the -interview you had with Harold Holly, who I think is a reserve officer? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you state in your own words just what that was all -about? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Well, Holly was with us a long time. He was in the -organization, I have forgotten how many years, but I don't guess that -is important. - -But frankly, Holly was--he is confused. I am not exactly satisfied that -he is sure about what he is saying. His statements were so general, -such a general nature, and when I showed him the pictures he was unable -to positively identify them. - -This man that he did pick out and said that he looked most like the man -that was in the basement was W. J. Newman. He was in the basement, but -he wasn't out at Parkland Hospital where he told them he saw him, and I -just got the impression that Holly was--he just wasn't too reliable a -witness. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you? Of course, we will get his -testimony, but what do you remember that Holly said to you? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Well, he first approached me--you see, I was at the -courthouse down in the area when Oswald was shot, so I knew immediately -from the previous slaying that one of our big headaches was going to be -at the Parkland Hospital, and I rushed on out there to try to set up a -little security out there. And Holly showed up out there after awhile, -and he made the statement to me that he thinks he knew a man--that is -the way he put it, that he thought he saw one of the men out there that -was in the basement of the city hall who knew something about that. And -I said, "Who was it," and he said, "I couldn't tell you, but I would -know him if I saw him." - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say the man was in uniform? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; he said he saw him out there at Parkland Hospital, so -I tried to check. - -Mr. HUBERT. This was told you at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; this afternoon. - -Mr. HUBERT. The 24th? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he thought he was a reserve officer? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is why he told it to you, I suppose? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; right. So I tried to find out who he was talking -about, and he went with me and we couldn't find anybody that he thought -he saw. And just from the way he talked to me, I just lost confidence -in what he was trying to tell me. But I pursued it as far as I could, -naturally, and asked him if he could identify some pictures, and I got -all the pictures of the men that reported out there, and he picked out -this man. And from there on, I didn't question him any further. - -Mr. HUBERT. He did pick out the picture of W. J. Newman and he said -that was the man? - -Mr. SOLOMON. He said he thought it was, it looked most like him. I -don't think that it was, but it looked most like him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Newman was subsequently---- - -Mr. SOLOMON. He was interviewed by Jack Revill. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Newman yourself about the matter? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No; I didn't engage him in any conversation about it -because I knew they were going to and I just didn't want to get him -upset or say anything. I didn't know what he wanted to exactly question -him about. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you have not talked to Newman about what he might -have seen or thought? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or what he reported or didn't report? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No; that is right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you present at the time in the basement, at the time -Oswald was killed? - -Mr. SOLOMON. I was not. I was at the county courthouse. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were not in the basement itself? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't know anything about what happened? - -Mr. SOLOMON. They were anticipating trouble. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were in the city hall? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. I thought you meant the Dallas Police Building? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No, sir; that is the county courthouse. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark for identification a document purporting -to be a report of an interview with you, Captain Solomon, made by FBI -Agents Hughes and Mabey on December 9, 1963, composed of two pages, -and I am identifying it by marking along the right margin line, -"Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5106, Deposition of Capt. J. -M. Solomon," and I am signing my name on the first page and putting on -the second page my initials in the lower right-hand corner. Captain -Solomon, have you read this document? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that we may recognize that we are talking about the same -thing, would you put your signature at the bottom and your initials on -the second page. - -Mr. SOLOMON. I don't think that this is what I did awhile ago. You want -my initials here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Just write by the margin and initials by the second page. - -Mr. SOLOMON. [Signs and dates.] - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have read that document, I think, Captain? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a correct report of your interview with the FBI -Agents? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that is omitted or that you want to -change, or modify? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Captain, do you know anything about this matter other than -what we have talked about, that you would like to put into the record, -sir? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of -the Commission staff? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, before the commencement of this -deposition, I did not interview you? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think, Captain, that I mentioned the word "pistol" a -moment ago in connection with arming of the reserves? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Did you? I didn't recall it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You indicated to me that actually these men are not armed -with firearms? - -Mr. SOLOMON. No; they are not armed. Would you want to make part--this -part of the record? This is what I call an information sheet about what -the reserve is. A lot of times a citizen calls me and wants to know -something about it, and I mail them that. - -(Hands to Mr. Hubert.) - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will accept this. I will mark on the front -page, Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5107. You call that a -brochure? - -Mr. SOLOMON. I call it an information sheet. We generally refer to it -as a poop sheet. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am writing on this sheet, "Exhibit 5107, deposition of -Capt. J. M. Solomon." I am signing my name, and for identification, if -you will sign yours? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. That just gives a little more detail than what I told -you about it, and I had forgotten that. That might be important that -they are not armed. That is why we don't let them work in any capacity -unless they are in the company of an officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the day in question, to wit, the 24th of November 1963, -the reserve officers were in uniform but of course not armed? - -Mr. SOLOMON. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I notice that this Exhibit 5107 contains information about -the minimum standards that are required? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. For admission and maintaining the status of a reserve -officer, is that correct? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you state that these minimum standards are in force? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. One other question. Can you state that the reserve officers -that were on duty on the 24th did meet these minimum standards? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything else to say? - -Mr. SOLOMON. Well, I don't suppose you want to know that we had some on -duty during the Presidential Parade? Is that important? - -Mr. HUBERT. It might be in another aspect of the matter, but the one I -am inquiring about, it is not. However, I am sure that the information -that you have given me, generally speaking, should be made a part of -the record, and that is why I have done that. Thank you very much, sir. - -Mr. SOLOMON. You are so welcome. - -Mr. HUBERT. I appreciate your coming down. - -Mr. SOLOMON. All right. Thank you very much, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF M. W. STEVENSON - -The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 7 p.m., on March 23, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Assistant Deputy Chief M. W. -Stevenson of the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, -1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure -adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and -the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition -from you. - -Mr. Stevenson, I state to you now, that the general nature of the -Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the -facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and in particular as to -you, Mr. Stevenson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine -what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent -facts that you may know about the general inquiry. - -Mr. Stevenson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general -request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's -Commission. - -Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day -written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules -provide also that a witness may waive this notice of the taking of his -deposition. Are you willing to waive this notice in time? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I am; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you rise and be sworn, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, your age, your -residence, and your occupation, and how long you have been in that -occupation? - -Mr. STEVENSON. M. W. Stevenson. I am 60 years of age. I reside at 3452 -Boulder Drive. I am with the Dallas Police Department. Have been for 36 -years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What position do you now occupy with the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I am deputy chief, commanding the criminal investigation -division. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hold that same position during the period November -22 to 24 of 1963? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Since November of 1954. - -Mr. HUBERT. Generally speaking, what are the functions of your job? -What are your duties and responsibilities? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I am in command of the criminal investigation division, -and as such, I am responsible for the criminal investigation division -of the Dallas Police Department. - -I coordinate the work among the five bureaus which constitute the -criminal investigation division. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what those bureaus are, please, sir? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I have a homicide and robbery bureau, an automobile -theft bureau; I have a juvenile bureau; a burglary and theft bureau; -and a forgery bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us now who was in charge of each of those -bureaus during the period November 22-24, of 1963? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Fritz was in charge of the homicide bureau as -the immediate supervisor. Captain Jones was in charge of the forgery -bureau. Captain Nichols was off that day, and I don't know which -lieutenant was on. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say, "that day." I was really speaking of the 3-day -period. - -Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Nichols, I am sorry, was in charge of the -automobile theft bureau. Capt. F. M. Martin was in charge of the -juvenile bureau. Capt. W. C. Fannin was in charge of the burglary and -theft bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just to get the record clear, insofar as Captain Nichols is -concerned, you indicate he was off on 1 day of the 3-day period. Which -day was that? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I believe that was the 24th. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now each one of these bureau chiefs reports to you and is -responsible to you, is that correct? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That's right; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who are you responsible to? - -Mr. STEVENSON. To the assistant chief of police. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is that? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Chief Charles Batchelor. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the course of this examination, it would be helpful to -us if you would try to state an approximate time as to each episode or -fact that you testify to, and also indicate whether the fact or matter -or episode that you are testifying to is within your own knowledge; -that is to say, gained from your own observation, or whether the -information you give us was obtained from someone else, in that case, -tell us if you can remember who gave you the information. - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you just give us briefly an account of what you -did from about 12:30 on November 22 on forward. - -Mr. STEVENSON. At about or approximately 12:30 p.m., on the 22d, I was -at the Trade Mart on Industrial, as I had charge of the officers and -the security of the building for the luncheon of President Kennedy. - -At about 12:30, approximately, I was notified by Secret Service Agent -Grant and Captain Souter that the President had been shot. We didn't -know how severe. It was stated that he was on the way to the hospital. - -I immediately contacted Captain Fritz and two of his homicide men and -relieved them from their assignment at the Trade Mart and assigned them -to the investigation. As soon as I had done that, I relieved 13 other -detectives and supervisors. I believe it was 13. I told them to notify -headquarters they were available for assignment, and if no assignment, -to report to the Texas Book Depository, as it was reported that there -was a possibility the suspect might still be in the building. - -After that, as fast as I could safely in my own opinion relieve the -balance of men who I had on duty, because it had not been announced to -the entire group there what had happened--that was at the request of -the Secret Service that we didn't want a stampede there--as fast as I -could relieve the others, I started relieving and putting them on duty -and telling them to report to headquarters or notify headquarters they -were available for assignment and any assistance they could give. - -At approximately 1 or 1:15, I would say, Mr. Eric Jonsson notified the -group of people in the Trade Mart that the President had been shot and -had succumbed. Then as soon as we could empty the building, we relieved -everyone and put them all back on duty with instructions to report to -headquarters, where we kept them on duty as long as we needed any on -any of the assignments. Chief Batchelor was still at the Trade Mart -when we finally relieved all of the men. - -He and I left the Trade Mart and drove to Parkland Hospital to see if -we could render any assistance out there. When we got out there, we -found Mr. Lawson of the Secret Service. He stated he would be ready in -a few moments, to transfer the President's body to Love Field to be -flown back to Washington. He had no escort. He asked if we would escort -the hearse bearing the body to Love Field. We told him that we would. -He, and I believe it was a member of the White House staff, rode in the -car with us. We led the hearse to Love Field. Arrived at Love Field---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time you left the hospital, approximately? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I would say around 1:40, that is as near as I could say -offhand, Mr. Hubert. I would say 1:40 to 2 o'clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you provided the escort for the hearse leaving the -hospital about 1:40? - -Mr. STEVENSON. About 1:40 or 1:50. It's got to be somewhere in there, -because the body was not held at the hospital but a short while. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to the time that he shot -Oswald? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you have seen pictures of him since, I take it? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. While you were at the hospital, and I would like you to -state if you can, the time you arrived there, did you see Jack Ruby at -any place around the hospital? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, I did not. In fact, I did not get out of the car. -I sat in the car by the radio while Chief Batchelor walked into the -hospital to see if we could be of any further assistance. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time that you arrived there, Mr. -Stevenson? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I would say we arrived at the hospital around 1:40. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then go on. - -Mr. STEVENSON. After we reached Love Field, the Secret Service men -loaded the casket onto the President's plane. They told us that they -had called Judge Sarah T. Hughes to administer the oath of office to -President Johnson. - -She arrived in a short time. We remained at Love Field until she -administered the oath and the plane was airborne. After the President's -plane was airborne, we left and came back to the city hall. We arrived -back at the city hall around 4 o'clock, I would say. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say city hall, do you mean police department? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Police Courts Building, our headquarters. - -Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I wish you would describe the relationship -between what is the police building and the municipal building of the -city hall. - -Mr. STEVENSON. The Police and Courts Building is what was, until a -few years ago, the city hall proper. A new building was constructed -adjacent to this building and adjoining it just east of the Police and -Courts Building. - -It is now ordinarily referred to as the city hall, the building which -is on the corner of Main, Harwood and Commerce, which is the old city -hall, now known as the Police and Courts Building, and houses the jail, -the police department, and one or two offices of our city government. -But primarily it is referred to, or should be referred to as the Police -and Courts Building. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, go on. So you arrived back at the police -department. - -Mr. STEVENSON. We arrived back at the office about 4 o'clock, or maybe -a few minutes later. I went directly to the homicide bureau. Chief -Batchelor went to the administrative offices. - -Before leaving the Trade Mart, I had gotten information through Captain -Souter that the suspect in the shooting of Officer Tippit had been -arrested. On the air on the way to the hospital, we heard several -squads being dispatched to Texas Theatre. I asked the dispatcher what -we had working at Texas Theatre, and he advised me that it was the -suspect who had shot Officer Tippit, that he had been arrested at the -Texas Theatre. - -At that time I advised them that Chief Batchelor and myself, or "2" -and "3," as I told him, which are our call numbers, were en route to -Parkland Hospital and would be in the area and back to the office as -soon as possible. When I arrived back at the city hall I went to the -homicide bureau to see what progress on our investigation was made, I -was advised that Oswald had definitely been identified in murder of -Officer Tippit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who advised you of this? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Lieutenant Wells in the homicide office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald at that time? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I didn't; he was being interviewed, but I did -not see him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was interviewing him? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Fritz and some FBI agent, I don't know who, and -I believe a Secret Service agent. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware now of a message that had been sent by the -FBI to the Dallas Police Department concerning the security of Oswald? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Not at that time, no, sir. That was Friday afternoon? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you didn't learn that Mr. Hoover had sent word -that great care should be taken for the security? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Not at that time, I had not; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us without detail, generally speaking, of -your activities on the rest of the 22d, and the 23d. - -Mr. STEVENSON. After I was advised that he had definitely been -identified and from evidence which was being checked, it looked like -he possibly might be the same man who shot the President. I returned -to my office in the administrative offices, and was in and out of -the homicide bureau on numerous times, staying in touch with the -investigation, and they were in touch with my office. - -About 7 p.m., I believe it was 7, approximately 7, Oswald was filed on -for the murder of Officer Tippit, and was arraigned in the Police and -Courts Building by Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, I believe it was. - -Now at approximately, I would say, 7 or 8 o'clock, some word came to -me from Chief Curry, which apparently was from Mr. Hoover or someone -from Washington, that they wanted an agent of the FBI or Secret Service -present at all interviews. That was the first that I had heard of -anything from this, and that came to me through Chief Curry. - -At about 12 midnight, I was advised by Lieutenant Wells, and I -talked to Mr. Alexander, assistant district attorney, and Mr. Jim -Allen, former first assistant district attorney and a friend of the -department, and was advised that sufficient evidence had been obtained -and that charges were being filed in the death of President Kennedy. - -Mr. HUBERT. Charges against Oswald? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Oswald; yes, sir. He was arraigned. - -Mr. HUBERT. They did not tell you at that time, did they, what evidence -it was, but simply that it was sufficient evidence? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not all of it, but they told me at that time -that they had found a rifle that they were sure was the one. They -had talked to witnesses. The officer had seen him in the Texas Book -Depository a few minutes after the shooting. He was an employee down -there. He had left the building after the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. They told you all this at the time they told you that they -had enough in their opinion to charge? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; charges were filed. And at about 1:30 a.m., on -the 23d, he was arraigned in the identification bureau on the charge -of murdering President Kennedy, before Judge Dave Johnston, and was -returned to his cell under guard at that time after the arraignment. I -was present at that arraignment. I was not present at the arraignment -on the Tippit case. - -After he was arraigned, I returned to my office and was in my office, -the homicide office or bureau where I might have business for the -balance of the night up until about 3 o'clock, at which time the -homicide office was closed until the following morning. I remained on -duty in the administrative offices with detectives whom we had working -that night standing by for any assignments or any other information we -might get, that we wanted to investigate during the night--and left -the city hall, the Police and Courts Building at about 12:35 Saturday -afternoon. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now are you familiar with the lineup conducted in the -regular assembly or lineup room of the Dallas Police Department of -Oswald when some newspaper people were present? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that? First of all, what time was -it? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That was a few moments after charges were filed, I -believe, by the district attorney. - -Mr. HUBERT. Charges on Oswald? - -Mr. STEVENSON. On Oswald in the President's death. The district -attorney, Mr. Wade, and the assistant, Mr. Alexander, were present. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you present? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I did not go into the room, I just went to the door down -there. I was present when they did go down for the showup, but I did -not go into the room. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say you did not look into the room? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I did not go into the room. The door, of course, was -open, but I was present when they left the third floor, the homicide -office, to go down for this lineup. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went down to the door of the lineup room? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall looking in at all? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, I could look in through the open door. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man since identified as Jack Ruby, in that -room? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, no, sir; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. Frankly, I was not close enough. The only ones -that I could see or did see were those lined up in the front of the -room. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that room, do you suppose? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I would say, and this is an estimate on my part, Mr. -Hubert--I would say from 100 to 125, including officers and news media -and everything. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security plan or actual operations were -put into effect with respect to Oswald during that period? - -Mr. STEVENSON. When he left upstairs, he was taken back through the -jail office. From the jail office down, there is an elevator to the -downstairs jail office, onto the "showup stage," as we call it in the -assembly room. He was taken down through the jail; was not taken out -from there. - -Now to take him into the showup room, I was not where I could see how -many officers were around him. But it was necessary to bring him from -the elevator next to the homicide bureau every time we brought him down -to interview him. At that time we would have as many as three officers -with him, and from four to half a dozen officers on the route through -to the next door. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what check was made of the people who were -allowed into the assembly room? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No one was supposed to have been in the assembly room or -on the third floor except news media properly identified. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was this established? - -Mr. STEVENSON. We had officers at the elevators and the stairways with -instructions that unless they were an official or connected with an -official news media, they were not to be permitted on that floor unless -they had business in one of the other bureaus, and the officer was to -escort him to that bureau. - -We later eliminated as much of that as we could that night by calling -the jail office. If he wanted to visit some prisoner at the jail, the -jail personnel called the bureau and were instructed as to whether a -pass would be permitted. - -Mr. HUBERT. But do you know whether or not, as these newsmen and the -rest of the other news media went into the assembly room for this -lineup, whether they were checked in any way again upon entering? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't, because when I went down to the -basement, they were already in the room. In other words, they had -already filed into the room. - -Mr. HUBERT. What else do you know in general terms about the security -of Oswald when he was in the cell? I think you have already covered -when he was being moved? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; there was a guard on his cell at all times, and at -sometimes there were as many as two, but around the clock a guard was -placed outside his cell door. He was not permitted to converse with -other prisoners. In fact, he was placed in a cell where it would be -impossible for other prisoners to get to him. - -For the arraignment in the murder of the President, he was brought from -the jail into the identification bureau, where there is a barred door -coming in to identification room from jail. He was not brought back -through the Police and Courts Building proper. He was brought directly -from the jail into the identification bureau when he was arraigned. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that takes us then to 12:30 on Saturday. You were -on duty until 12:30 a.m. on Saturday? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you come back to duty thereafter? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I came back to the city hall Saturday evening about -7 or 7:15, and went immediately to the homicide bureau to check on -any further developments, and was advised that the case was building -stronger, other evidence being accumulated, and if I might go back -a little bit now, at around 1 o'clock, on Saturday morning--I am -trying to get my time straightened out here--the pertinent evidence -that we had checked in the case of Oswald's shooting of the President -was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Laboratory in -Washington, D.C., to be processed, the rifle and other evidence as -that for fingerprints and any other evidence that might help us in the -investigation. - -After I had gotten back to the city hall Saturday afternoon, through -discussion, I don't recall from whom, but in the hallway, that the -prisoner would not be transferred before 10 o'clock the next morning. - -I went to Chief Batchelor and asked him about the authenticity of that -particular remark, and he said, "Yes, that's right." And I said, "Has -the press been notified?" And he said, "Yes." - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that you first heard about the fact that -Oswald would not be moved Saturday night? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Approximately 7:30 p.m., on the 23d. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now just what was it you heard and what was it that was -confirmed by Batchelor? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I heard, as I stated, I don't know who made the remarks, -but from the discussion in the hall, that Oswald would be moved not -before 10 o'clock the next morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did the information that you received indicate a time of -removal the next day? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Nothing but that it would not be before 10 o'clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. It didn't say what time after 10 o'clock? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Batchelor tell you what time it would be after 10 -o'clock? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. I went to Chief Batchelor--the reason I went to -Chief Batchelor with that when I heard these remarks, I wanted to know -if the press had been told. I went to Chief Batchelor and affirmed the -fact that the statement had been made and that the press had been told. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; just go ahead then. - -Mr. STEVENSON. I remained at my office in the Police and Courts -Building until approximately 10:30 Saturday night, at which time I went -home. - -And returned to the Police and Courts Building at approximately 8 -o'clock, Sunday morning, the 24th. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now before you left your duty on Saturday night, do you -know of any plans that had been made for the transfer of Oswald and the -security of that transfer? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not on Saturday night, to my knowledge, I don't -recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, proceed to Sunday, please, sir. - -Mr. STEVENSON. I arrived at the basement of the Police and Courts -Building at approximately 8 o'clock. Maybe 8:15. - -I believe Chief Batchelor arrived at about the same time, and Chief -Curry either came in near that time or a few minutes later. Now, I -don't recall. - -When Chief Batchelor and I were in the basement; we observed a Captain -Talbert had already started setting up security in the basement and on -the streets outside. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you describe what you mean when you say he had already -started setting up security? - -Mr. STEVENSON. He had placed officers on the Commerce Street side of -the city hall at the top of the ramp. - -There was two or three officers at that time, we observed, in the -basement. And I believe Captain Talbert was in the basement, and one of -the sergeants, possibly Sergeant Dean. I could be wrong on Dean being -there at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first came in? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That was when we first arrived at the city hall. It -was too early at that time to see just where we would want the men -assigned, or where he would have them assigned, rather, because I was -not assigning the men to security other than being of any assistance -to the men in my division that I could possibly be. Chief Curry, Chief -Batchelor, and myself looked over the basement shortly after, or I -would say 8:45. Chief Curry observed a large TV camera sitting back in -the alcove as you go into the double doors into the Police and Courts -Building of the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the basement side of those double doors, or on the -jail side? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That was just outside the jail windows after you get -through the double doors from inside the Police and Courts Building. -It was sitting outside the doors in the part of what is a part of the -basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. - -Mr. STEVENSON. He instructed that the camera would have to be moved -and moved across the driveway into the parking area proper. He also -instructed at that time, I believe it was at that time, that the two -cars that were parked, I would say it was a squad car and a plain car, -in spaces one and two, as I will refer to them, were directly across -from the door leading out of the basement, that they would be moved and -those spaces left unoccupied, no cars would be parked in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, I have before me the chart of the basement -area including the jail office and parking area and the ramps and so -forth. I am going to date it, and I am doing so now, "Dallas, Tex., -March 23, 1964, as Exhibit 5050," in the deposition of Chief M. W. -Stevenson. I am signing it with my own name, and I am going to ask you -to sign it just below mine, because in your testimony from now on out, -I am going to ask you to refer to this chart and put certain positions -down on it. - -Now, when you mentioned just now, a moment ago when you said that Chief -Curry asked that two cars in spots one and two be moved off, would you -indicate on Exhibit 5050 by putting "Spot 1," and "Spot 2," what cars -he was talking about? - -(Writing on chart.) - -Mr. STEVENSON. Right here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just put "Spot," so we will know. "Spot 1," and "Spot 2." - -All right, was that done? Were the cars moved? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; they were moved from those two parking spaces. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened next? - -Mr. STEVENSON. At that time we all returned back up to the third floor. -That was approximately, I would say, 8:40 or 8:45. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would be you and Captain Batchelor? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That would be me and Assistant Chief Batchelor and Chief -Curry. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. STEVENSON. We went back upstairs, and I would say 30 minutes -later, or approximately 9 or 9:15, Chief Curry and Chief Batchelor had -discussed the possibility of moving the prisoner in an armored car due -to some threats--incidentally, I have to drop back a little. - -Chief Batchelor notified me, when I met him down there that morning, -that Captain Frazier, I believe it was, had called him at home and told -him that the FBI had called up with some information that, I won't say -how many, but a group of people were going to take Oswald away from the -officers on the transfer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Captain Frazier tell you? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No; he called Chief Batchelor, and he told me that -Captain Frazier had called him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Told him there had been a message received from the FBI -that someone had called the FBI? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Stating that there would be an effort made; is that correct? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Captain Batchelor indicate to you at that time whether -the FBI knew who had made this call? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that it was an anonymous call? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I believe, as I remember, he did say that the message -that he got was that an anonymous caller had notified the FBI. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead with it then. - -Mr. STEVENSON. They had discussed the possibility of transferring -the prisoner in an armored car due to these threats. I walked in the -office, in the chief's office while that was being discussed, and the -chief asked me what I thought about it. - -I told him I thought it would be a good idea, in view of the threats. -Chief Batchelor went to his office to contact one of the local -armored truck operators, who was, I believe, a Mr. Fleming, and made -arrangements to get an armored truck. I remained around the office on -the third floor, and I believe Chief Batchelor and I made another trip -down in the basement before I went after some coffee. - -Chief Batchelor advised Chief Curry he had ordered the armored truck -and told Chief Curry, he and I were going to the basement and look the -area over. We went to the basement, and Captain Talbert had set up, -what we thought, was a very good security. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see it yourself? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I saw the officers, where they were distributed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state then for the record just what you saw, what -you stated you considered to be good security? And it might be that you -will want to use that chart to indicate what you mean. - -Mr. STEVENSON. He had placed officers--he had not stationed them -definitely, but he had officers there checking everybody that came -into the basement. He had officers down there that searched the entire -basement area, searching cars, on top of the heat conduits, and so -forth. He had officers on the ramp up here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, you say, "up here"? - -Mr. STEVENSON. At the top of the Commerce Street ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many officers did he have there? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I don't know just how many. He had some reserve and -regular officers. And Captain Arnett advised us, I believe it was on -this trip, that he had been instructed by Captain Talbert to move all -of the people to the southside of Commerce Street, permit none of them -to congregate on the city hall or Police and Courts Building side of -Commerce, and that he had done that. We observed that the crowd was -across the street. He had an officer stationed up here at the top of -the Main Street ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that officer's name? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Vaughn, I believe it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would write his name there in your own -handwriting. - -Let the record indicate that Mr. Stevenson is writing the name of the -Officer Vaughn on Exhibit 5050. - -Can you tell us what officers you saw in the basement area? - -Mr. STEVENSON. At that time when I was down there, I cannot say other -than that I did see Captain Talbert. He was all over the area. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was this, about, again? - -Mr. STEVENSON. This was around 9:45, I guess. As best I recall the time -on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any of the news people there then? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; there were a few. This camera had been moved. -They were back over in this area back in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you are indicating on the chart that they had -been moved to what is called there the parking area? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Parking area of the basement; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead. - -Mr. STEVENSON. We returned back upstairs to the third floor. Chief -Lumpkin and I went to the second floor to the patrol captain's office. -Captain Talbert came up to the office and asked us to have a cup of -coffee with him, which we did. He asked us at this time about the time -of the route of the transfer. We told him at that time that we didn't -know definitely, but that we believed that it would be east on Commerce -to Central, north on Central to Main, and west on Main to the county -jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say that you were not certain of that information, but -that you had gathered it? Could you expand on that and tell us where -you think you got that information? As far as you are concerned, then, -there had been no plans that you knew of as to the route? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Not the exact route at 9:45 or 10 o'clock, somewhere in -that area. He asked us what route it would travel, and we told him that -we believed that it would go up to the Central Expressway and west on -Main at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you used the pronoun "we," whom do you mean? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Chief Lumpkin and I. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that the route, so far as you knew it at that time, -would be out of the Commerce Street exit, turning left, going beyond -Pearl Street, which was one way against the direction which you wanted -to go, and then over to North Central Expressway? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Turning left again and going to Main Street, turning left -again, and then all the way down Main to Houston? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give any instructions, or did he indicate what he -was going to do in connection with that plan? - -Mr. STEVENSON. He said that he would call 10 men from his outside -patrol and place one at each intersection on the route that would be -taken to the county jail, which, as I said, at that time we figured -would be Main Street, and he did make necessary arrangements. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right then; go ahead. - -Mr. STEVENSON. After we had drunk a cup of coffee, we returned back to -the third floor and were advised a few moments later--Chief Batchelor -advised me that the man had called him and that he was preparing to -send the truck now. We again went to the basement, he and I, to see -about the arrival of the armored truck. - -I instructed Detective Captain O. A. Jones to go to the top of the -Commerce Street ramp leading out of the basement to notify the two -officers who were on duty there, to assist the truck when it came up -and get it backed in as far as it would go down the ramp. Captain Jones -did this and advised me that he also told Captain Talbert what he had -done so that Captain Talbert would not move the officers when they got -there. The truck was en route at that time. - -After the truck arrived and was backed in, Chief Batchelor advised -me that he and Lieutenant Smart opened the truck up and searched it -completely, taking out, I believe, a couple of empty Coca-Cola bottles -or soft drink bottles. - -I had returned to the third floor, went to the homicide office, -homicide bureau office, Chief Curry, Lieutenant Pierce, Captain Fritz, -and I believe an FBI agent, and Lee Harvey Oswald was in Captain Fritz' -office and some Federal officer had been interviewing him, oh, I would -say at least for an hour, and I was advised at that time by Chief -Curry---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was that? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That was about 11:10 or 11:15--that they had changed -their plans after discussing it with Captain Fritz and that instead of -using the armored truck to transport the prisoner to the county jail, -they would use the truck as a decoy because a car would be much more -maneuverable if a crowd tried or anyone started to stop the car or -take the prisoner, that the truck would proceed east on Commerce from -the Commerce Street ramp to the Central Expressway north, north to Elm -Street, Elm Street west to Houston, and would turn left and not stop at -the county jail, but pass by the county jail on Houston, that the car -carrying the prisoner followed by another car of detectives, and Chief -Curry's car, which was also parked out in the street, would leave the -truck at Main Street on North Central and turn west down Main Street -and proceed directly to the county jail. - -And the sheriff's office had been notified and would have the steel -gate open where the car could drive in and the gate could be closed -directly behind it. When given this information, I left the homicide -bureau and started back to the basement. - -I met Chief Lumpkin at the elevator on the way to the basement and -I advised him of the change in plan. On arriving at the basement, I -advised Chief Batchelor and Captain Jones of the change in the plan. - -I had been in the basement a minute or two after I had advised them of -the change, and two detectives were bringing two police and plain cars -from the parking area proper onto the ramp from the parking area. - -I stepped across the driveway and instructed the officers there to -assist the detective in getting these cars up on the ramp where it -could back into, to pick the prisoner up, and follow the last car which -was driven by Detective Dhority. As I came out of the parking area, the -car pulled onto the ramp to back up. - -I stepped across behind the car right over here. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you draw a little square roughly the -size of the automobile driven by Dhority, and then place a circle to -indicate your own position of that time? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That is a long automobile, but as I recall, this post, -I was standing right here, and the car had gotten back to right along -here. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were on the south side of that post, standing? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I believe I was standing right here at the edge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the very front of the automobile on the right side? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No; I was just about at the right door hinge. The right -front door hinge, that is where I was standing. That is a very poor -drawing of the car, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. Just put in there, "police car," in that -square. - -Now you have also drawn a circle to the south of that post, and I wish -you would draw a little arrow and put your initials indicating that -that was your position. - -Now let me get this. Did your position change from the way you have -marked it here at all up until Ruby shot Oswald? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; it did not. If I may explain this a little bit, -from where I have drawn this circle, this post that extends out here is -built onto the wall, and where I was standing, I could see plumb back -into here. I was not behind the post as it looks like here. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the post and the right -side of the automobile? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I would say there was 3 feet. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you describe for us the position of the news -media in the basement area there, giving us as much as possible the -number of people, say, on the Main Street ramp, and the number of -people in the basement area proper? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I would say from the corner of the building here, -straight across. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "here," just mark a point. Let's call that -"number 1" to point number 2. - -Mr. STEVENSON. I can make that up this way, I believe. - -I would say in this area, from here to here, and over here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's say you are talking about the southwest wall of -the---- - -Mr. STEVENSON. From the west wall--we term that the west side of the -driveway of the ramp to the east side, and back up to here. - -Mr. HUBERT. And back up to approximately where the ramp begins to go -up, is it? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Let me look at my small map. - -I may have that marked wrong. I may not be saying what I want to say. -If I have those maps with me, I hope I have as much as I worked on that -thing. I ought to tell you with my eyes closed. - -I evidently left them. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Let's get at it this way. - -Mr. STEVENSON. The driveway end out from right here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Don't say from right here. Let me put it to you this way. -On the Main Street ramp, it is from the---- - -Mr. STEVENSON. That would be the entrance into the---- - -(Discussion off the record to orient positions.) - -Mr. HUBERT. From the corner which is formed by the intersection of the -jail corridor and the Main Street ramp on a line roughly due east or -northeast, rather, and another line running along the Main Street ramp, -and then another line across the ramp to the wall, how many news people -were in that area? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I would say, and it is purely a guess, from 30 to 40 on -the north ramp, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many people can you estimate could stand abreast along -there? - -Mr. STEVENSON. It is 12 feet and 6 inches wide, the ramp is. I would -say 5 people could stand in there side by side. - -Mr. HUBERT. It actually is a little wider, is it not? - -Mr. STEVENSON. It is down here. That is why I was looking for another -little map I had there. It is 15 and 2 here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, roughly speaking, how many people did you see abreast -there, and how many ranks of such people were there? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I don't know how many ranks there were. I would say -there were, counting the officers and the detectives, and that is what -I would have to go by, because we had detectives ranging that whole -area. - -I would say they were 6 or 7 or 8 deep. - -Mr. HUBERT. And about 5 or 6 across? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that somewhere between 40 and 50 people? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Possibly; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the basement area itself, in, and particularly that -portion which faces into the jail corridor, how many people were there? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I would say, counting police officers and everybody, and -again that is what I'd have to go by, I would say there were at least -50 in this area in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say this area in here, you are describing a -semicircle? - -Mr. STEVENSON. From the two spaces which were cleared in the parking -area proper back to---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Just draw a line. - -Mr. STEVENSON. [Compliance.] - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you just mark within that line the number of people -that you think were within that space? - -Mr. STEVENSON. [Compliance.] - -Mr. HUBERT. Now mark the same way on the Main ramp the number of people -that were in the area on the Main ramp? - -Mr. STEVENSON. [Marking] Well, it is purely a guess. I would say 40 to -50, in that area. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can recapitulate it. - -On the Main ramp there were between 40 and 50 newspeople standing -abreast? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Not news--police and all. - -Mr. HUBERT. And news people standing abreast is roughly five to six to -seven to eight, perhaps? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. In this other area which you have marked with a rough -semicircle, there were between 50 and 60 people? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That is an estimate, estimate on it; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you came down and observed the moving of the -vehicle driven by Dhority, were those people in the ramp and basement -area already located there? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; they were. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security arrangements had been made with -respect to checking the presence of those people? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; the same security arrangement we had used all -the way. No one was to be permitted into the basement without being -a bona fide member of the press or news media, and to our knowledge, -or to my knowledge, there was no one down there except members of the -press or police officers, or officers from some department, a Federal -officer or sheriff's office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any instructions that had been given with -reference to checking these people for identification? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Only what was given to them on the third floor. Now, I -don't know what instructions Captain Talbert had given the men, but -he told me he had instructed that no one would be permitted in there -unless they had a press pass and was officially connected with the news -media. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you how that would be ascertained? - -Mr. STEVENSON. By the officers checking them and checking his -credentials. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you had gone there earlier on the occasion of about -9:45, I believe it was, when you and Batchelor went to get coffee? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That was Chief Lumpkin and I drank the coffee, Mr. -Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, I am thinking about the last time that you were -there prior to your going down finally, or to put it another way, the -second to the last time you were down? - -Mr. STEVENSON. The next to the last time was after I drank the coffee, -Chief Batchelor and I went down there. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was it then? - -Mr. STEVENSON. About the best I recollect, around 10:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now were these news media people in those areas at that -time? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Not on the Main Street or north ramp, not at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they were? - -Mr. STEVENSON. They were back in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, back in the basement area? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; in the basement area. - -Mr. HUBERT. So at that time you think there were approximately, well, -twice the number of people that you have since described as were in the -Main ramp and the basement area, roughly about a hundred people? - -Mr. STEVENSON. At that time there might not have been, because that was -some 40 or 50 minutes before the prisoner was transferred. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there people upstairs or elsewhere? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Some of them were on the third floor. Some of them were -on the first floor. Now just where they all were, Mr. Hubert, prior to -the time the transfer was actually made, I don't know, but about 10:30, -I would say that there was not that many down there at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you said the first floor, you meant the first floor of -the police and courts--of the police department? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Of the police and courts building; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have already testified concerning the relation of what -you call the courts? - -Mr. STEVENSON. The police and courts building. - -Mr. HUBERT. To the municipal building or the city hall? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether there was any -security as to the entrance to the city hall's first floor? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, only what Captain Talbert advised me, that they did -have it sealed off and had the elevators stopped on the first floor and -nothing to come below the first floor of the city hall proper. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know about what entrances do exist to the city hall -municipal building's first floor? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -There is an entrance off of Main Street. There is an entrance off of -Commerce Street. There is also an entrance into what we call a freight -elevator off the alley on the east side which the alley runs between -Commerce and Main and right up to the east side of the city hall. - -To my knowledge, those are the three entrances to the city hall proper -other than from the basement and the elevators up from the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn't there a corridor, however, that leads from the first -floor of the city hall to the first floor of the police department? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security there was with respect to that -corridor? - -Mr. STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, Mr. Hubert, I don't know other than -he did have, Captain Talbert said he had men on the first floor of the -police and courts building and I believe that you will find a steel -gate that closes off the police and courts building from the municipal -building. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether that gate was closed? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I do not. I did not inspect that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the entrance to the first floor of the -municipal building on Main and Commerce were locked or not locked? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I did not inspect them; no, sir. I do not know of my own -knowledge, but usually on a Sunday, those doors are locked. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that statement true about the door on the alley? - -Mr. STEVENSON. To my knowledge, only the maintenance crews have keys. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now were any policemen assigned to any of those three -entrances from the outside into the first floor of the municipal -building? To wit, Main Street entrance, Commerce Street entrance, and -the service door on the alley? - -Mr. STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, I don't know whether Captain -Talbert told me that he had security on the outside of the doors of the -city hall and the municipal building, but I did not go out and check -those to see. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware then--that is to say, on November 24th, of -the position of two reserve officers called Brock and Worley? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Not by name; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that there were two reserve officers in the -basement area, one of them near the elevators and one of them near -the---- - -Mr. STEVENSON. This is a driveway into the parking area. - -Mr. HUBERT. The driveway into the parking area proper? - -Mr. STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, no, sir; I don't. I did not go back -to the elevators over here to check on that. My officers were in this -general area in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you are indicating from the intersection of -the jail corridor and the ramp at the basement? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Directly out in front of the jail office entrance, and -in this area in here, and up this way and back here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the removal of those two men -from the positions indicated? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you observe the shooting? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I did not witness the shooting. If I may -explain that, when Mr. Dhority backed the car that was to carry Lee -Harvey Oswald to the county jail, then, as I have stated before, I -stepped to the west side of it and was right about the front hinge of -the door. I heard someone remark "They are coming out." - -I looked around and observed Captain Fritz coming right through here. - -Mr. HUBERT. From the jail corridor? - -Mr. STEVENSON. From the jail corridor. When I saw him, I immediately -directed my attention to the overall basement area of our security -setup to observe anything that went on, and they had not taken but -a few steps and had not reached the back of the car when I heard a -shot, and immediately again I directed by attention to the prisoner -and observed a group of officers, I would say, some 8 or 10, subduing -someone. - -And as I stepped back here, I saw Detective Graves who had been with -Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "stepped back"---- - -Mr. STEVENSON. Back to where the shooting had taken place, I saw him -rise from the crowd with a gun in his hand still holding it around the -cylinder. - -Ruby was picked up and taken into the jail office, who I afterwards -learned was Ruby, and Oswald was also carried into the jail office. -Lieutenant Wiggins instructed an ambulance to be called. - -I then stepped back out of the jail. - -When the shooting took place, the officers on the Main Street ramp, -this one up here---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That would be Mr. Vaughn? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I don't know that he was one that pulled his gun, but -there were several reserve officers and other officers down in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is on the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I was told by, I believe it was, Captain Jones, that the -officers up there had their guns out. And I stepped back out of the -jail office after seeing that Ruby and Oswald had been taken care of. - -The north ramp was quiet, but the officers were having difficulty with -people. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the Commerce Street ramp? - -Mr. STEVENSON. At the top of the Commerce Street ramp, or near the top. - -I stepped back up here and told those officers that the man that did -the shooting was in custody and there was no more trouble. Ruby was -taken upstairs and the ambulance picked up Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go up with Ruby yourself? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No; Captain King, Detective Archer, and I believe -McMillon went up with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean with Ruby? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I mean with Ruby, pardon me. With Ruby up to the jail -office. - -Captain King advised me when I came back down that they had stripped -Ruby of his clothing, searched him to see that he had nothing on him -with which he could harm himself or harm anyone else, and in about, oh, -I would say possibly 10 minutes after he was taken upstairs, Secret -Service Agent Forrest Sorrels did go up and talk with him, and Sergeant -Dean, I believe it was, took him up there. - -Now this was told to me by Sergeant Dean, that Mr. Sorrels did request -to go up and talk to him, and he did take him up there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe Ruby before he was stripped of his clothing? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I observed him in the jail office after he had been -picked up, after he had shot Oswald. - -He had been picked up from just outside the jail office door near the -ramp and was taken into the jail office, and he was standing in the -jail office with the detectives holding him, when I walked in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any kind of press pass on his person? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Ruby prior to that time? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I had never seen him before, as far as I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him in the crowd? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby say anything in your presence that you yourself -heard? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Not that I heard myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any orders concerning the search of Ruby's -automobile? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what they were, please? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I don't recall who contacted me or called me and told -me where his car was on the parking station near the Western Union, -advising me that he had a dog in the car, a dog of some kind. - -I contacted my Automobile Theft Bureau, which handles and is -responsible for all impounded cars, and asked Lieutenant Smart to go up -and get the car. - -He took someone with him, I don't recall who, to impound the -automobile, search it, and take everything out of it that he could find. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now you did not get your information about the location of -the car from Ruby himself? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you think you got it from someone whose name you don't -know or now remember? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I don't recall who it was. It is possible someone who -had talked to Ruby, but now I can't say about that because I just -don't recall who it was that advised me that his car was up there at -the Western Union, but I did receive the information and directed -Lieutenant Smart to get the car and search it thoroughly, impound it, -and have the pound take the dog. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that when you did get the information about Ruby's car, -you also got the information that there was a dog in it? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who was assigned to control traffic at the -corner of Main and Pearl? That is, by the Western Union Office? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or Main and Harwood? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have made a statement, I think, to the FBI, have -you not, sir? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I was interviewed by the FBI. - -Mr. HUBERT. I will hand you a document that I am going to mark now for -identification as follows: Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, an Exhibit -5051, Deposition of Chief M. W. Stevenson. I am signing my name, and I -would like you to read it, sir. - -Mr. STEVENSON. (Reads.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Stevenson, you are signing it. - -Do I take it by that, that that statement is correct, so far as you -know? - -At least that there are no errors in it? - -Mr. STEVENSON. As far as I can see, there are no errors. Only one thing -on this, unless I missed it right here, this does not say anything of -the change of plan. - -Mr. HUBERT. No? - -Mr. STEVENSON. It sure doesn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, it just speaks for itself. But apparently you called -to our attention an omission from that statement which has been covered -by a part of this deposition, is that correct? - -Mr. STEVENSON. This was taken on the 25th. I guess that is right. Isn't -that the date here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; the 25th is correct. - -Mr. STEVENSON. I don't understand why that part was omitted, but I was -interviewed, and there is nothing in here, as far as I am concerned, -that is wrong, to my knowledge, with the exception of that omission of -the change in method, of transfer. - -Mr. HUBERT. There may be other things also in your deposition that do -not appear in that document which we have marked as Exhibit 5051. - -Now I show you another document which I have marked "Dallas, Tex., -March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5052, Deposition of M. W. Stevenson," and -I have signed it with my own name. It is a part of the Commission -Document 81-A, Page 95-A, and ask you, sir, if that is a correct -statement of your interview with Captain Sawyer? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; it is. I might add on this one, this was to -find out about our security, the reason this one was put out, and that -is the reason they didn't go any further. You want me to sign this? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. As I understand you, that is correct, so far as it -goes? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you care to state for the record, Chief Stevenson, -what, in your opinion, was the cause of the breakdown of security which -resulted in the death of Oswald? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Mr. Hubert, I don't know whether I can tell you the -cause or not, but there is no doubt we had a breakdown. And if our -investigation is right, it was at the Main Street ramp into the -basement through which Ruby claimed that he walked down that ramp while -this officer had his back turned. And our investigation showed that he -did leave the Western Union Office some 4 or 4-1/2 minutes prior to the -shooting. - -Our breakdown, although this is my opinion, it was unintentional on the -part of Officer Vaughn, in my opinion, he did come down that ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you would like to say, sir, -concerning any part of this matter whatsoever? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Mr. Hubert, I don't recall a thing that I haven't -attempted to cover. However, if there is anything that I have not -covered, I will be glad to attempt to or to answer any questions that -you might think pertinent to it, and anything that I have failed to -cover has been unintentional, I assure you. - -Mr. HUBERT. I simply want to give you an opportunity now to say -anything else that you might want to say, realizing, of course, that -there may be other things which don't come to your mind at the moment, -but I would like you to think about it and tell us if there is anything -at all that has not appeared in any statement you have made or in any -part of this deposition. - -Mr. STEVENSON. The only thing that I could say that comes to my mind -at the present is, up until Oswald was killed in the basement, we felt -like we had built a good case on Oswald as the slayer of President -Kennedy, and we felt we had done a good job on the arrest and the -accumulation of the evidence. - -We just had a breakdown. We were let down unintentionally, in my -opinion, from the investigation, by one officer that permitted Ruby to -get into the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any other statement, Mr. Stevenson, other -than those that you have identified as Exhibits 5051 and 5052? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge that I recall, other than the -overall chronological report that we made to the chief of police -regarding the entire operation and plan for the visit of the President -all the way through until Oswald was slain by Ruby in the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a joint report? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us who prepared that. - -Mr. STEVENSON. It was Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, myself, Chief -Fisher, Chief Lunday, Captain Souter, and all of the supervisors who -had a definite responsibility in preparing and carrying out the plans -for the President's visit to our city on November the 22d. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that a written report? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a copy of that, sir? - -Mr. STEVENSON. It's in this. I believe I have it. (Looking.) - -It isn't in there, sir. I believe that is the entire report. - -(Handing papers to Mr. Hubert.) - -I don't think it would be in there. That is our security investigation -report, Mr. Hubert. You will find that that is signed by Chief -Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, and myself. - -All of the officers did not sign it. We merely got their version, their -reports and things and incorporated them in one chronological report. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have, Mr. Stevenson, handed me a document consisting of -34 numbered pages, the first page apparently being unnumbered, dated -November 30, 1963, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police, -and bearing on page 34, the typed names of Charles Batchelor, George -Lumpkin, and M. W. Stevenson. - -You have also stated to me that this copy was available to the -Commission. - -I am therefore marking it as follows: - -"Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5053, Deposition of M. W. -Stevenson." I am signing it with my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr. - -I am going to ask you to sign your name under mine, and I am -initialling myself, each one of the pages, and I would appreciate it, -if you would also initial each one of the pages. - -I am placing my initials on each one of the pages in the lower -right-hand corner of each page. - -Mr. STEVENSON. (Initials each page.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Stevenson, I have now signed the first page under -my signature, that being the unnumbered page. I ask you if you have -checked the sequence of pages thereafter and find that they run in -perfect sequence 1 through 34, page 34, being the last page? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have also placed your initials on each one of those -pages in the lower right-hand corner below my signature, is that -correct? - -Mr. STEVENSON. I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. The original of this was signed by you, sir? - -Mr. STEVENSON. By Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, and myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you delivered that to Chief Curry? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed by any of the Commission -staff prior to the taking of this deposition? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me correct you. You were interviewed by me just -before the beginning of this deposition? - -Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I was. I answered too quick then. - -Mr. HUBERT. That interview took place this afternoon for about an hour -and a half, I think, immediately preceding the time that we started to -take the deposition? - -Mr. STEVENSON. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have not been interviewed by any other member of the -Commission staff except that interview with me? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me whether you perceive any inconsistency -between the deposition you have given and the interview that I -conducted with you prior to the taking of the deposition? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't believe I can see any inconsistency. - -I did do this at your request, or I say with your permission I looked -over some of my notes before the taking of this, and the only thing -that I think was any change made was in answer to Captain Talbert's -question as to what the route of transfer would be. - -I think when I discussed it with you prior to the taking of this -deposition, I told you that we told him we thought it would go down -Elm. When I reviewed my notes, it was Main Street that we had told him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now do you know of any other material information that was -covered in the interview that preceded this deposition which has not -been developed during the deposition? - -Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not that I recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all unless you have anything else. - -Mr. STEVENSON. I don't recall a thing else, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CAPT. CECIL E. TALBERT - -The testimony of Capt. Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 7:30 p.m., on -March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, -Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Cecil T. Talbert, patrol -division, Dallas Police Department. - -My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr.; I am a member of the advisory staff of -the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination -of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, -dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the -rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the -Executive order and the joint resolutions, I have been authorized -to take a sworn deposition from you, Captain Talbert. I will state -to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is -to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry -tonight is to to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald -and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of -the Commission. Now, Captain Talbert, you have appeared here tonight by -virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of -the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted -by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior -to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a -witness may waive the 3-day notice in writing. Are you willing to waive -that notice? - -Captain TALBERT. I'd like to waive it, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Captain TALBERT. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name? - -Captain TALBERT. Cecil Earl Talbert. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Captain TALBERT. I am 44. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? - -Captain TALBERT. 1211 Toltec, Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, sir? - -Captain TALBERT. Police department. Captain of patrol division. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the police department? - -Captain TALBERT. Seventeen years. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of captain? - -Captain TALBERT. You will have to forgive me just a minute. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, just approximately is all right. - -Captain TALBERT. January 26, 1960. - -Mr. HUBERT. What are your duties and responsibilities on the Dallas -Police Force? - -Captain TALBERT. I have a patrol platoon. Three captains assigned to -the patrol division. Each has a platoon. We rotate around the clock and -while on duty would have the patrol function. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the patrol function throughout the city. - -Captain TALBERT. Throughout the city; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? - -Captain TALBERT. Chief Fisher; N. T. Fisher. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he is head of the patrol division in general? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Three captains under him? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who are the other captains? - -Captain TALBERT. J. M. Souter relieves me, and Capt. William Frazier, -who relieves Souter. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in that same position with the same duties and -responsibilities on the 24th of November 1963? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d of November 1963? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What hours did you serve then? - -Captain TALBERT. Seven to three. - -Mr. HUBERT. 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go off duty at 3 p.m. on the 23d? - -Captain TALBERT. Close to that, I mean close to that time; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the time you went off duty about 3 p.m. on the 23d of -November, had you been informed of any plans for a transfer of Oswald -to the county jail? - -Captain TALBERT. Not by police supervisors. I had heard the information -the chief had given the news media who had insisted on setting up their -equipment in our jail office, or adjacent to the jail office, and he -insisted that they not set it up there, and that they would be in the -general public way, and only that they could report after 10 o'clock on -the next day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you didn't hear that from the chief himself? - -Captain TALBERT. Not from the chief. Only--that is hearsay. - -Mr. HUBERT. You obtained from the radio or television or newspapers? - -Captain TALBERT. Possibly radio and newspapers, yes, sir. You might -know we were attentive to all news media at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what time, then, did you go on duty on the 24th? - -Captain TALBERT. The morning of the 24th I reported when--I gave my -time of duty as 7 to 3. Actually, we report about an hour early so that -we can prepare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have -to make. So, at approximately 6 o'clock, I reported to our office and -relieved Captain Frazier. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time that you relieved Captain Frazier, did he -convey any information to you? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said? - -Captain TALBERT. Said he had a communication with Sheriff Decker and -Mr. Newsom, with the FBI, and both were anxious to transfer Oswald at -the time. Transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had -been unable to contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. That he -couldn't call him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what time he had received that information? - -Captain TALBERT. He did; but I don't recall what time, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you of any security plans that had been made to -transfer Oswald? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you of any security plans that should be made, -or had been ordered? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he then go off duty? I am talking about Captain Frazier -now. - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I relieved him and he went off duty. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then with reference to the transfer? - -Captain TALBERT. Continued his efforts to contact the chief -through--going through the telephone exchange. I wanted to contact him -by telephone. He had contacted Captain Fritz with the information from -both Mr. Newsom and the sheriff, and Captain Fritz said he couldn't -transfer him until the chief authorized it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Fritz yourself? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; that was conveyed to me by Captain Frazier -before he left. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. - -Captain TALBERT. And I got the telephone company to put a buzzer on the -chief's line, and there is no response, and they have something that is -louder than a buzzer. I can't recall the term they use, but you have -to get permission from the chief operator to utilize that. I had that -put on the chief's line, and still no response. Obviously the line was -defective, so, I had a squad sent to the chief's home with the request -that he call me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he call you? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. From his home? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was his phone out of order? - -Captain TALBERT. I don't know, sir, but by all appearances, it was out -of order. I think that latter item I was speaking of was around the -entire neighborhood, almost. It is quite loud, even though a phone may -be off the hook. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to the chief? - -Captain TALBERT. I repeated the conversation that Frazier had told me -that the sheriff had told him, and also Mr. Newsom had told him about -two calls received by the FBI office during the night. Both by men -speaking in a calm voice and both conveyed the same message that before -Oswald reached the county jail "A hundred of us will see that he is -dead." And the request by Sheriff Decker, and Mr. Newsom, that he be -transferred immediately. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was your understanding that Newsom had received a -message twice? - -Captain TALBERT. His office. Not Mr. Newsom personally. His office. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. Do you know whether any such message had also been -received by the sheriff's office independently? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you convey that information? - -Captain TALBERT. It was approximately 6:30, my conversation with Chief -Curry. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions? - -Captain TALBERT. He said if I would call the sheriff and Mr. Newsom, -tell them that he would be in his office between 8 and 9, and he would -contact them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that, what did you occupy yourself with? - -Captain TALBERT. The usual duty of getting my platoon on duty and -balancing the detail. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything looking toward the ultimate transfer of -Oswald? - -Captain TALBERT. Not at that time; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you begin to do anything with reference to the -transfer? - -Captain TALBERT. Approximately 9 a.m. Traffic was building up rather -heavy on the downtown streets. Primarily on Commerce, people going by -the intersection of Commerce and Houston and the--viewing the Book -Depository Building, and we had a few people gathering on Commerce -Street side of the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them gathering on the Main Street side? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why? - -Captain TALBERT. Evidently the people who were gathering realized that -our exit side was Commerce and our entrance side was Main. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fact? - -Captain TALBERT. That is a fact. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say internally, your traffic goes from Main to -Commerce, and goes no other way? - -Captain TALBERT. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is a one-way ramp? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; all of our vehicles enter on Main Street and -exit on Commerce Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, there is no physical reason why it couldn't be -the opposite? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; there is. Commerce is one way, and makes it -more difficult to--Oh, I'm sorry. There is no physical reason. - -Mr. HUBERT. No. That's all right. You have explained it. You had -misunderstood what I meant when I said, "physical." - -Captain TALBERT. Sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Actually, it is an internal rule, that is, a normal rule -because of the fact that Commerce is a one-way street. - -Captain TALBERT. The accessibility to the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Main is a two-way street? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did Chief Curry come in? - -Captain TALBERT. I don't know, sir. I didn't see him all day. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him all day on the 24th? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. I mean I don't recall having seen him. I -didn't converse with him. If I saw him I didn't converse with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any action about looking to the movement or -transfer and the security thereof, of Oswald? - -Captain TALBERT. That is a very broad statement and can we narrow it -down into my actions taken of any probable disturbance that we might -have around the city hall? - -Mr. HUBERT. Just tell us what you did. - -Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. At 9, or about, Lieutenant Pierce, -that is Sam Pierce. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce? - -Captain TALBERT. Sam. - -Mr. HUBERT. Sam Pierce? - -Captain TALBERT. Rio Sam Pierce. R. S. Pierce. [spelling] R-i-o, just -like the river. Rio Sam Pierce is my central area lieutenant, and I -talked the situation over with him about the traffic problem, and the -people that were giving the appearance of going to start gathering on -the Commerce Street side, and what we should do about the possible -security around the city hall. It would have to alleviate having to -call the squads in over the dispatcher. - -At the time, we were working on a Sunday detail, which is one of our -smallest. Sunday is a less active day, and we have fewer people working -on Sunday, that is, than we do any other. That is the day we try to get -most of our--not "most," I'm sorry, that is a poor term. We cut our -detail down on Sunday due to the fact that police activity is light. -So, I talked it over with him about what we should do about the method -of security of the area, and finally decided that if--for him to pull -three squads from each of the three substations, and four squads out -of the central station, and to pick two-men squads where possible so -that we could build up the total number of men that we had as quick as -possible. - -This second platoon, the day platoon, works primarily one-man squads, -and our two-man squads are trainee squads. The trainees work with an -older officer and create a two-man squad there. Could you leave this -off just a moment? That is something---- - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; then, you decided to set up some system of -security for the police department building? - -Captain TALBERT. I further told Lieutenant Pierce to have the basement -cleared of all personnel. Have them searched. Thorough search, and -secure it, letting only the authorized news media and police officers -into the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. What---- - -Captain TALBERT. The basement area that---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What system of authorizing newsmen was in use? - -Captain TALBERT. Using their press identification. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had that been issued specially? - -Captain TALBERT. That is the general order, 81, I believe that -is the number of it. I don't know whether you want to include -that in here or not. I believe general order 81, is that we would -utilize--this is a long-standing--that we will utilize the normal press -identification to permit news media into scenes of incident areas. -The amateurs, bystanders, were kept out because they don't have those -identification---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that an identification commonly known to police -personnel? - -Captain TALBERT. They scrutinize it. No, sir; each could utilize these -different types, but you have to scrutinize their identification. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you say that you permit these persons to enter, but -civilians without news identification could not enter? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in effect that day? - -Captain TALBERT. I utilized it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean, the order was in effect? - -Captain TALBERT. It had not been revoked. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you utilized it? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it was determined that when you were clearing -out the basement, you would clear out all persons who were not police -officers or news media properly identified? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell me why you did that as to the basement? - -Captain TALBERT. The basement--I am using a very loose term in -"basement," I meant, and did convey to Lieutenant Pierce, "the area," -in which Oswald would be--if he was transferred, and I used that term, -"if he was transferred," I didn't know that he would be. Although, our -basement was becoming cluttered with newsmen at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told by anyone that Oswald would be removed -from the upper story of the building by use of the jail elevators to -the jail office, and from the jail office through the jail corridor -into the basement ramps. - -Captain TALBERT. At that time; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But---- - -Captain TALBERT. But, of my own knowledge that is the only way he could -be removed to a car unless he went through another floor and out on the -street. That is the way you go in the normal police building area. - -Mr. HUBERT. And do you mean that the normal method for handling would -be one where he would be brought to the elevator to the jail office, -and into the basement? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you state just what you did by way of clearing -the basement area? - -Captain TALBERT. Lieutenant Pierce gave the assignment to Sergeant -Dean, and in turn to Sergeant Putnam to carry out, and in various -stages of the searching of the basement I think he checked it himself, -at approximately 10 o'clock, and I gave, by the way, the initial -instructions to bring those squads in. I told them to disperse their -cars, park them on the street, but disperse them. Not have them grouped -up, and to report to my office by at least 9:30, and he did have that -accomplished, and he gave the instructions to clear the area and search -it to Sergeant Dean, who got Sergeant Putnam to assist him in it. About -10 o'clock, I went down to check and see how he had progressed at that -time. They had checked the news media, they were set up in the jail -office. The jail office proper. They had cameramen, cameras, reporters -on top of the booking desk, on top of everything available. The news -media was taking over the jail office rather heavily, and insisted the -chief had given them permission to do so. That was about 10. I went -into the basement area and Sergeant Putnam gave me a lengthy rundown, -step by step, on what he had done, or had done--see what I mean -about my English?--and had accomplished in clearing that area, and I -personally checked all the doors to the several rooms that led from the -parking area to see that they were locked. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you specify for the record what doors you did check? - -Captain TALBERT. Starting in around on the side of the ramp, janitor's -room. Could you hold it a minute and let me see if I can identify it? - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I think we'll get on the record. - -Captain TALBERT. Shall we just say "checked the painters' room"? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I want to get more particular points than that. Now, -since you are about to describe your activities with reference to -a definite area, I want to show you a map or chart of the basement -and jail office area, and in order that we may properly use it in -connection with your testimony, it is necessary for me to identify -it. Therefore, I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March the 24th, 1964. -Exhibit 5070, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my -name to it, and for the purposes of identification, I'll ask you to -sign your name just below mine. Now, you say that you, yourself made a -personal check of what is shown on this Exhibit 5070, as the parking -area? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Wait. Where did you begin? Right in here? - -Captain TALBERT. Right about here, to here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking with a numeral, "1" in a circle, a point -that you have indicated to me as the starting point of your inspection -tour, and exactly just what did you do there? - -Captain TALBERT. Well, that's---- - -Mr. HUBERT. And then I am going to ask you to just simply draw a line -as to the general portion that you want, and whenever you stopped, we -will mark the stop with No. "2, 3 and so forth", and just use this map -and mark it in that way, keeping in mind that you must speak in such a -way that a person who reads this later on may be able to understand the -movements. Now, you are starting at a point that is marked No. "1" in a -circle? - -Captain TALBERT. I checked the door No. "1", which is the painters' -room to see that it was properly locked. I proceeded to the doctor's -room, and I checked it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you are marking that---- - -Captain TALBERT. That is "2." - -Mr. HUBERT. "2" in a circle? - -Captain TALBERT. I asked what has been done about the doctor's -services. Sergeant Putnam told me he had moved that doctor out of that -room and into the police locker room. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you check those doors? - -Captain TALBERT. Checked the door to see that it was locked, and it -was; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was locked from the outside? Could somebody in there -have come in? - -Captain TALBERT. There should have been no one in there, because there -is no entrance to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you check in the doctor's room? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I had no key to get in. The doctor and -the porter would have the key, but I didn't have. I went to this -[indicating]. This is the stairway, and this--there is another--there -is another stairway coming in here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. From point "2"? - -Captain TALBERT. Actually, this is--can you stop? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Captain TALBERT. I went to point "3" and tried the other door which was -locked externally. Went to point "4"---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave point "3," did you know whether that door -was locked from the other side? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that a person in the stairwell---- - -Captain TALBERT. That is not the stairwell, sir, that is the second -door of the first aid station. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, the second door of the first aid station? - -Captain TALBERT. "3" it is the second door of the first aid station. -"4" to the stairwell leading downstairs to a subbasement, engineroom, -and leading from the first floor down to the basement area is a fire -escape type--that door was secured from the outside. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anybody on the inside of that door could -have come from the stairwell into the basement? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; it has--that particular door, I have since -learned--I didn't know it at that time, but I have since learned that -that particular door has a fire escape type latch. That bar-type latch, -and I did check and find that the first floor--not the basement, but -the first floor of the city hall had its interior door, both on the -Commerce Street, Main Street, and the hallway locked. It is a procedure -that they use over the weekend, and after 6 p.m., in the afternoon, -those doors are locked, so, anyone not in the building at the time -wouldn't have had access to this unless someone unlocked it for them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you check those entrances at the first floor of the -municipal building on the 24th? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you do that? - -Captain TALBERT. As I recall, just from the--this particular time after -finishing this search, I went to the sidewalk area on Commerce, and -into the entrance that is left open for payment of water bills and the -interior door there was secure and locked. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, then a person could not get into the first floor of the -city hall through that door on Commerce Street? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; and in further checking around the building -I went through the police courts building and in checking the Main -Street door and then, in turn, checked the Main Street entrance, and it -was locked. - -Mr. HUBERT. Main Street entrance to the municipal building? - -Captain TALBERT. To the municipal building. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was locked? - -Captain TALBERT. And it was locked; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you check the several entrances on the alleyway -which runs from Main to about halfway up the block and makes an L-turn -and then runs to Pearl? - -Captain TALBERT. I did not check that entrance, because the thing is -locked any time after 6, and on the weekends. We can't enter that way. -Matter of fact, we have orders not to enter that way at anytime, but -sometimes we, in parking, we find it convenient to enter through that -elevator and the service elevator from that entrance, and we always -find it locked. We have to get a porter's attention by banging on the -door to get it unlocked. - -Mr. HUBERT. Since we are on that subject, how would you go through that -service entrance on the alleyway into the first floor of the municipal -building? - -Captain TALBERT. The service entrance has some side doors leading off -of it. I don't know whether they are broom closets, or go into rooms -or what, but into the service elevator, both sides of the elevator has -operable doors. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is--so call it the Harwood side on the elevator, and -the Pearl Street side. - -Captain TALBERT. This is going to the Central Expressway over here -[indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Captain TALBERT. And, so, the--the expressway side and the Harwood -Street side has doors that do open. Both sides of that elevator have -doors that would open, and the operator could open either one of them, -and you can come in from the entrance and exit from this Harwood Street -side. Enter from the expressway side and exit from the Harwood Street -side. - -Mr. HUBERT. If it were possible for a person to gain entrance through -the service entrance into the first floor of the municipal building by -use of the service elevator, that is to say, by walking through both of -the doors of the elevator, he could then get into the stairwell of the -fire escape on the first floor, could he not? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And by walking down to the basement level at the point---- - -Captain TALBERT. Designated "4"? - -Mr. HUBERT. Designated "4," he could get into the basement area in that -way. - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; but we had an operator on the service -elevator with instructions not to allow anyone to basement, and he -was--allowed no one to come in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that person was? - -Captain TALBERT. I believe his name is Mitchell, sir, to the best of my -memory, is his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the police department? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; he is a porter, a colored porter who works -within the city hall building, itself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to that man? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell him? - -Captain TALBERT. At the time, I told him to take his elevator up on -the first floor. I put the parking attendant on that elevator, or -instructed the parking attendant to get on that elevator and go up to -the first floor, and for the parking attendant to maintain a vigil -lookout on this elevator marked Nos. "1" and "2" here, which will be -"5" and "6" in my route. I told him to see that no one came nearby -those elevators, and told the operator of the service elevator to stay -on it, and not bring anyone to the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was the parking attendant? - -Captain TALBERT. I'm going to have to utilize his nickname, and it is -rather far-afield. I should know his name. His nickname is "King," it -is one we have used for quite some time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the police department? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; he is a colored parking attendant who works -for the municipal garage. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he carried out your orders, Captain -Talbert? - -Captain TALBERT. To my knowledge, he did. I don't know that he did, but -to my knowledge, he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't know to the contrary then? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you continue, then, your security search which -we had left off, I think, at a point marked "4"? - -Captain TALBERT. I went from point "4," the elevator--the stairwell, to -the elevator. The first service elevator to the building on the--not -service elevator, delete that, young lady--first elevator in the -building marked "1", here, but will be marked "5" in this route. And -that door was closed. Went to the next elevator which was immediately -adjacent to the first one marked "6," that door was closed, indicating -the elevator was not on that floor. These are automatic elevators and -the doors would be open if it was. Then went to the service elevator, -and had the foregoing conversation with the operator and the parking -attendant. That is marked No. "7." - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, just continue your search? - -Captain TALBERT. From that area, or in that immediate area I had -another discussion with Sergeant Putnam and asked him about the -engineroom elevator, this elevator being on the extreme corner of the -parking area on Commerce Street, next to the ramp. This elevator comes -from the engineroom to the parking area only, and doesn't go to the -first floor. Anyone entering through that elevator would have to be in -the engineroom, which is a subbasement, to enter into this basement. -That is the only place it goes. One floor. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have marked that how? - -Captain TALBERT. Marked that "8." Sergeant Putnam had placed a reserve -officer at that point to---- - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, were any other reserve officers placed in -the parking area, to your knowledge, or any other officers for that -matter? - -Captain TALBERT. May I mark on---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Surely. - -Captain TALBERT. A reserve officer whose name I do not recall, was -placed at a point marked "9," with the instructions not to permit -anyone to enter the parking area from the elevators or stairwell. But -a reserve officer was placed in the point marked "8." We--I think -we have that in the deposition now. Reserve officers were, at that -time, brought forward when I asked if the conduits had been searched, -the top of the conduits, and--the air-conditioning conduits, if they -had been searched. They brought the two reserve officers forward who -had the filthiest uniforms. It was quite obvious that they had been -crawling around on top of them. They had searched them, and I took -their condition to state that their search had been thorough and the -fact that Sergeants Putnam and Dean told me that they had covered -each one, that the engines, engine compartments, the trucks as well -as the vehicles parked in the basement had been searched for possible -hiding places, and all of this was accomplished. After the search was -accomplished, after officers were placed in the adjacent ramps on the -Commerce Street side, on the Main Street side, and from the lobby of -the police building marked "10," lobby of the police building into the -area in front of the jail office leading into the ramp area--may I mark -the places where the officers were now? The reserve officers--we are -getting a--can I hold it for a minute? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Captain TALBERT. All right, now, I will go ahead and mark the area -where we had each---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you marked "10," that you had an officer there. - -Captain TALBERT. I had an officer and--a reserve officer was at "11." -Two detectives were--Lowery and Beaty--Beaty and Lowery. "12" and "13" -most of this period. Number "14" on the Main Street entrance to the -police ramp was Vaughn, R. E. Vaughn, and number "15" and "16" were -Patrolman Jez and Patrolman Patterson. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you ever order the reserve officer at the point -"9" removed? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that he had been? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; at 11 o'clock, when the detail was made up to -put traffic men on Elm Street, it was gathered in that area, and that -man was in place at that time, at 11. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that? - -Captain TALBERT. If he was moved after 11 I don't know who moved him or -where he went, but the reserve officer "9" was in place at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what his name was? - -Captain TALBERT. I believe Brock is going to be his name, but I am not -sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think it is Brock. Now, then, you mentioned something -about drawing off persons to patrol the intersection of Elm Street? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us something about that, please? - -Captain TALBERT. We had kept as many officers out of the basement area -as possible to keep from adding to the confusion of the search so we -could make a systematic search, and I had retained all of the excess -officers, and, as I recall, numbered about 13 regular police officers -in my office and the reserve officers, and excesses were retained in -an assembly room which would be behind the jail office, and after -about 11--let's back up and make that about 10:45--in that vicinity, -Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin contacted me about the route of the -proposed transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, and they asked--correction--I -asked if we were going to use marked cars or plain cars, or if we were -going to utilize sirens to stop traffic at intersections? - -Chief Stevenson said he didn't want any attention attracted to the -transfer that wasn't already attracted to it, and asked if I had enough -personnel to put in the intersection of Elm Street. First he said Main -Street. The first route planned was Main, and it was changed to Elm -before I could so disperse the personnel, so, actually, we utilized Elm -all through this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just as it was? - -Captain TALBERT. And they said first Main and then before--after I -had removed the men from my office to the ramp--not the ramp area, -but the parking area and told Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Steele to -place them on each intersection to stop traffic for the lights as the -people making the transfer approached them. Found then that it was to -be Elm Street instead of Main, that it was to be Elm rather than Main -and the traffic could go--the reason being that they could swing off -of Elm into Houston, directly into the prisoner loading area of the -sheriff's office, and those 13 men were placed by Sergeant Steele at -each intersection. He didn't have enough. I instructed him that he -obtain any additional men he might need from the captain who was in the -area of the county jail, and he later called me by phone and told me -of the traffic conditions down there, and I had an estimate, I don't -recall whether from him or some other officer of the approximate number -of people in that area, said around 600 or so gathered up around the -county jail; so I instructed Steele to have each one of the men fall in -behind or follow fairly closely behind the conveying vehicle so they -would be available for any trouble that might develop around the county -jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever told by anyone of the plans of the transfer? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is, the ultimate plan or the---- - -Captain TALBERT. Well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Any sequence of plans? - -Captain TALBERT. After the plans had been instituted, Lieutenant -Pierce, who I had sent to the homicide bureau previously to see if we -could be of any assistance, or see if he could do anything--I didn't -see him enter the basement, but as he pulled up onto the ramp--or in an -effort to enter the ramp, he stopped his vehicle and called me over and -asked me to get in his car. I opened the door, got in on the right-hand -side of his car and he told me my--I omitted something, I believe, -about this armored car, haven't I? Do you want that in there? - -Mr. HUBERT. We'll come back to it. - -Captain TALBERT. All right. He told me that he had been instructed to -take a car out and get in front of the armored car which was backed -into the ramp on the Commerce Street side and to lead the armored -car. He was to be the lead vehicle and the armored car, it would go -up northbound on Central to Elm, west on Elm and swing in off of Elm -on to Houston Street. That two plain cars would pull up behind of the -armored car. The prisoner would actually be in the last plain car, and -the first plain car would be full of armed homicide officers, and it -would cut off on Main Street, west. It would leave the city hall with -the cavalcade, and when it hit Main Street the two plain cars with -the homicide officers in them with the prisoner would make a left and -go west and the armored car and the lead vehicle there would continue -to Elm and then west. The two vehicles, or rather the two groups of -vehicles would be paralleling each other. One on Main, and one on Elm. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the plans were with reference to the -controlling of traffic on Main Street on which the prisoner was -actually going to be transferred? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; that was the first information I had is the -fact that the prisoner would not be in the armored car. Up until that -point, I assumed he would be in the armored car. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, at that point, it became apparent that he was not -going to be in the armored car? - -Captain TALBERT. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had already set up a traffic-control system by having -assigned men at various intervals on Elm? - -Captain TALBERT. Elm; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, if they were going to use Main Street, what control -would be used for cross traffic, crossing Main Street? - -Captain TALBERT. I have no knowledge, sir. Probably normal -transportation, more than likely. That is strictly my idea. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you said that you wanted to say something about the -armored car. - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I had previously been instructed about the -armored car by Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin, that was at the time -they asked that the officers be placed on Main, and later transferred -in to Elm Street, and at the instruction I had, was to have a man be -observant, to make sure that the armored car didn't hit--didn't jam it -into the overhead of the rampworks. - -When the armored car arrived they did back it into the Commerce Street -side, and the driver left it up near the front of the ramp because -of its weight, rather than height. Although, due to its height, it -couldn't have backed much farther down the ramp, but he was afraid -that due to the weight of the car the--it wouldn't pull it out. The -engine wouldn't have enough power to pull it out of the ramp, and so -it was left in that position until after Lieutenant Pierce pulled the -plain car that was his normal assignment car, I think equipment 239, -although, that is irrelevant, attempted to pull it up the ramp. He -couldn't get through the news media, which I would like to add to a -little later. I previously had the news media in the jail office. Now, -during one of my inspection trips I inspected the first floor of the -Police and Courts Building from the doors for Harwood and Main Street -to see that there was no congestion, and also, to look the crowds over -on Commerce, and during one of my trips, or perhaps I was contacting -the dispatcher--I was still conducting my regular patrol duties--the -news media was moving from the jail office to the ramps to clear the -jail office of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you supervise that movement? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; Chief Batchelor arrived and was told of the -preparation that had been made in the basement, and I assumed looked -at the office. I wasn't present, but I assume he looked in the office -and asked that that news media be removed. He was talking to Sergeant -Putnam and Sergeant Dean. I wasn't present, nor was Lieutenant Pierce -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, the news media were moved out of the jail area and -where did they then go? - -Captain TALBERT. I was told--and this by Sergeant Putnam--that they -were first placed on each side of the ramp leading from Main and -Commerce, and after the chief observed the conflict there, he had those -on the Harwood Street side of the ramp moved across the ramp onto the -Main Street side to keep--to make more room for vehicular traffic, and -that, of course, was from Sergeant Putnam to me. I don't know what -instigated---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you have occasion to observe the news media in -the ramp and parking areas just prior to the shooting of Oswald? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I think I should like to have you describe that, -and in order to facilitate that, I am going to draw a general oblong -figure which I am marking "Area A," and I'm going to draw another -general oblong figure which I am marking "Area B," and I would like you -to tell us for the record---- - -Captain TALBERT. May I inject another---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, I will mark another oblong area, which I will -call Area C. - -Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to describe that for the record--that is, -what were the conditions of those areas particularly with reference to -congestion of people? - -Captain TALBERT. Across from "Area A," there was complete double line -and in some instances triple line of men. That was men with cameras and -those without. Just the reporters who had no cameras, and in "Area B," -in the center of "Area B" I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave "Area A," would you say that the men were -shoulder to shoulder? - -Captain TALBERT. Oh, more than that. Crammed in there. Jammed---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Touching each other? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And about three ranks back toward Main Street? - -Captain TALBERT. That is my impression, yes, sir, about three ranks -back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Describe "Area B," then? - -Captain TALBERT. And "Area B," you had a railing as indicated here by a -dotted line. In front of that railing you had at least two or--probably -three ranks of people all the way down to the turnoff area, which is -the beginning of "Area C." In the center of "Area D," there were two -fixed cameras. - -Mr. HUBERT. Television cameras? - -Captain TALBERT. Television cameras, yes, sir. The others were movie or -still cameras and other cameramen, or strictly reporters, and in "Area -C," we had a fairly dense group in the immediate Main Street side, and -two to three ranks over towards the Commerce Street side dividing it in -half. - -Now, immediately after Lieutenant Pierce informed me of the change in -plans, we had to remove the people from the ramps so that he could -get out on the Main Street side, and they immediately closed back up, -and as he cleared the parking area to enter the ramp, a plain white -or light-colored car pulled onto it, and pulled up behind the armored -car on the Commerce Street side, and another plain light-colored car -attempted to pull up behind him, but he wasn't up far enough, so, we -had to holler at them to pull up a little further, which he did. That -car was attempting to back in, and had to cut to the left in order to -back up the vehicle--go to the right to get back into the jail-office -entrance. That was my understanding of his efforts to do, and the news -media was crowding in on him, so, that there was danger of him running -over them with his vehicle, should it move. So, I was by the left front -fender of that vehicle, Chief Batchelor was to my right, Captain O. -A. Jones to my left and we were--and one or two--perhaps more reserve -officers were there, too, pushing the news media back to let that car -have room to maneuver. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark on the map an area which I am marking -auto and---- - -Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. With the understanding that the front of it indicated by an -arrow is pointed toward Commerce Street? - -Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, would you mark the circle where you were -about the time of the event you have just described? - -Captain TALBERT. This auto is angled in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Maybe we had better angle it then. - -Captain TALBERT. Would you like that black pen? - -Mr. HUBERT. You do it. We, are changing the blue-pen marking because -Captain Talbert indicates that the automobile was on an angle, and he -is now marking it with the black pen. Would you put the word "auto," in -that, please. Now, draw a circle and indicate where you were standing. - -Captain TALBERT. I was standing by the left front fender of the car, as -I previously said. - -Mr. HUBERT. [Drawing a circle and indicating it number "7."] - -Captain TALBERT. Compared with the other, yes. And Chief Batchelor was -standing just to the left front of the vehicle, and--I can't draw it in -there with this circle correctly, but--we'll indicate that "18," Capt. -O. A. Jones was standing to my left, or to the rear of the vehicle -from me. Indicating that to be "19," and at the time that vehicle was -attempting to back up, we had pushed them back far enough for it to -maneuver. At the time it was attempting to back up, there was a muffled -report, a muffled shot and bedlam broke out in the vicinity of the jail -office entry into the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the shot? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I heard it, but did not see the shot and that -there was my first knowledge that the prisoner was in the ramp area. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you facing just before the shot? - -Captain TALBERT. Just before the shot, I was facing the crowd. I had -faced, alternately, the automobile and the crowd, as we were attempting -to get the thing back, and I was facing the crowd and could feel the -automobile pushing against me, I was turning around and pushing back -against the car, and as I made a little room, faced the crowd again and -pushed them back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I didn't see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave, -because of the news media across "Area A." They screened it from me and -also because of my preoccupation of getting these two plain cars up -behind the armored vehicle. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ruby? - -Captain TALBERT. I know his face. I know his name. I know his -reputation well. I don't know him personally. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him before? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him that day? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the shot? - -Captain TALBERT. After the shot, yes, sir. I'm sorry. After the shot, -or after this muffled report, I went over the back of the trunk of this -automobile we were trying to back in. Because of these people pushing -in I couldn't get--so, I went over the back trunk of it to get to the -officers. I saw they were down, and the melee that was taking place, -as news media was crowding around in on them, and I give them a little -room, and saw both Oswald and another man there who was being dragged -into the jail office by the other officer. As soon as we got some room -for them to drag them in, I shouted to the top of the entrance both -on Commerce and on Main--this may not give you the perspective scope -correctly, but it is about 90 feet on--from the place of the shooting -to the Main Street entrance. I shouted up to the entrance, "let nobody -out," or "nobody out," or something to that effect, and shouted to the -top past the armored car the same thing. "Nobody out," and officers on -this door told them, "Nobody out," and then went into the jail office, -and Ruby was lying on the jail office floor where--with the officers at -the time, attempting to handcuff him, as I recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him at that point? - -Captain TALBERT. I saw his face. That I recognized, but I didn't -recognize him as "Ruby." I asked a question, and may I say this in -front of the young lady? I have to apologize. Do you want it verbatim? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. I'm afraid so. - -Captain TALBERT. I asked the question--I said, "Who is this -son-of-a-bitch?" And he was saying, "I'm Jack Ruby. Everybody knows me. -I'm Jack Ruby." At the same time another officer, or perhaps to answer -that--"That's Jack Ruby, he operates the Carousel Club." - -Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first recognized him? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. As being someone that you knew? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen him prior to that time on that, day, to -your knowledge? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir, nor for 2 years prior to that, to my -knowledge. Approximately 2 years prior to that I was having breakfast -at the Pancake House at the Ramada Inn with other officers when a man -going out--we were sitting down and the man was going out and passed -by and stopped. Was--and he was obtrusively friendly with the other -officer, one of them he knew. He knew Lieutenant Pierce who was with -me, and Lieutenant Pierce introduced me to him, and from that point -until the point where he was on the floor at the jail office, I don't -recall having seen him, and the only reason that I remember the Pancake -incident, it was after the incident I was reminded of the incident by -Lieutenant Pierce. I don't recall of having met him at any time since -the old days of his operation at the Silver Spur. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him, or see him after that? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir, I asked--at that time. I didn't know they had -the gun. I didn't see the gun, so, I thought it was still in the crowd, -and I asked Chief Batchelor for permission to put all of the news media -in the police assembly room for interrogation, or somebody said, "I -don't think we have the gun." One of the officers who was kneeling on -Ruby--literally, you couldn't hardly see Ruby for this officer kneeling -on him--said, "I have the gun." Or perhaps he said, "Graves has the -gun." And then I told Chief Batchelor that it wouldn't be necessary to -search them. - -I got a batch of memo pads from the jail office and gave some of them -to Sergeant Everett, passed some out myself, told the officers to get -the names, identification and location at the time of the shooting of -anyone before they let them out of the basement. Chief Batchelor had -told me to go to Parkland and secure it. I immediately got in my car, -got on there and told the dispatcher to gather up all of my squads -and to have them to report to me code 3, at Parkland and followed the -ambulance out to Parkland. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby had stated that he had -come down the Main Street ramp? - -Captain TALBERT. I started my own investigation. Of course, I had -nothing to do with this official investigation of the incident in the -basement, but it is only natural that a police officer and a police -supervisor is going to instigate his own investigation. I started mine -from the hospital on the phone, and that question would be impossible -to answer. I may have heard it through the news media. I heard--may -have heard it through another officer who had overheard what they said -up in the jail. It could have been something of that sort. I couldn't -tell you exactly, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you, in fact, conduct an independent investigation of -your own? - -Captain TALBERT. Just a very cursory one, and during a very brief -period until the official investigation got underway. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long a time would that have been? - -Captain TALBERT. Well, maybe---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Put it this way, what did you do by way of instigating the -investigation? - -Captain TALBERT. Contacted, attempted to ascertain how Ruby entered -the ramp, or entered the parking area rather. I contacted each of my -officers who were on the entrances, and I did that while I was at the -hospital. That was before the death of--or during the operation on -Oswald, and while we still had the hospital secured by the squads, and -I contacted the supervisors who were there, and after that I was told -that an official investigation would be conducted, and I dropped it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was about an hour? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I wouldn't estimate the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you contact Vaughn particularly? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I had contacted Vaughn. Then contacted him -the next day. I found that Vaughn had let one man in onto the ramp that -he hadn't included in his report the next day. This man being a city -employee, a--one who Vaughn thought was authorized to enter the ramp. -He was Chenault, the mechanic in charge of the garage, so Chenault told -Vaughn. This was not in Vaughn's report, but when Vaughn was broached -with it, and this was on the 26th--I believe that could have been the -27th. Could you hold the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well---- - -Captain TALBERT. Let me just say that when Vaughn was broached with -having described this one entry into the ramp, that was the day after -his report had been written, and I had had a chance to review all -the reports, I obtained a copy of all the officers' reports and let -them stand even though some of them were conflicting and deleting -things--now, these were not the officers on the door, but the officers -on the street. That some of them conflicted about who told them to do -what. But I didn't have them change them as I normally would, because -of the incident, and also because of the nature of the incident, and -also because of my involvement in this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that Vaughn had filed a report in which he -failed to report that he had let Chenault go down the ramp? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; Vaughn, in his report, did not note -anything about anyone coming in the ramp other than squad cars and -the paddy wagon. No pedestrian traffic denoted, but when I went over -it with him in the presence of Chief Fisher and Sergeant Putnam, he -recalled--Vaughn without our having to bring it to his attention. - -Mr. HUBERT. He recalled Chenault? - -Captain TALBERT. I'm sorry. He recalled Chenault without our having -to bring it to his attention and inserted it in his verbal report, -and that was after the written report, which was an oversight on his -part. Chenault, may I add, was immediately evicted from the basement by -Sergeant Putnam when he saw him come down the ramp. He had him leave. -Chenault said that he needed to check the vehicles in the basement and -to see if any of them needed to be in the garage, and Sergeant Putnam -told him that he could do that later; to leave the ramp area at that -time, and he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned the paddy wagon coming down the Main Street -ramp. - -Captain TALBERT. It is a fact that the paddy wagon did come in. -However, each vehicle coming in was searched, and the paddy wagon was -operated by an officer named Lewis. The front seat of the paddy wagon -was searched and the back of the paddy wagon was searched---- - -Mr. HUBERT. By whom? - -Captain TALBERT. Chief Fisher--before they let them into the ramp. By -Sergeant Putnam, himself, as I recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't know of any record of how many paddy wagons or -other vehicles came down Main Street ramp after Vaughn was posted and -until the shooting? - -Captain TALBERT. I recall three in the reports. I didn't see any of -it--of them, but I recall three in the reports. One being a paddy -wagon. One vehicle contained two detectives. Another vehicle operated -by R. A. Watts, with a juvenile prisoner. Watts was not permitted to -leave the station and the prisoner was booked, and he was retained to -assist in the security. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Talbert, I am going to mark for identification -an FBI report of an interview which you made on November 24, 1963, -Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, as Exhibit 5065, deposition of C. E. -Talbert, and I have signed my name to it. It is a one page document. -I am marking another document consisting of two pages. Placing upon -it, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5066, deposition of C. E. -Talbert." I am signing my own name below that, all of which is on the -first page of the document which is the FBI report by Special Agent -Vincent Drain, dated November 25, 1963. It consists of two pages and -I am placing my initial on the bottom right-hand corner on the second -page. I also am marking for identification another document, being a -copy of a letter apparently addressed by you, Capt. Cecil Talbert to -Chief Curry, dated November 26, containing five pages. The first page -I am marking as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5067, -deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my name below -that now, and I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner -of each of the following pages. I am marking on a single page document -purporting to be an FBI report made by Special Agents Logan and -Bramblett, dated December 10, 1963, by placing upon that document the -words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5068, deposition of Capt. -C. E. Talbert," and I have signed my name, and that document--that -exhibit consists just of a single page. And finally marking upon a -report of an interview which you had with Special Agents Bramblett and -Logan of the FBI, on December 12, the following: "Dallas, Tex., March -24, 1964, Exhibit 5069, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert," under which -I am signing my name. Now, that document consists of eight pages, -and I am marking the seven other pages with my initials on the lower -right-hand corner, on each of the pages. Now, Captain, I ask you if you -have had a chance to study and to read these various documents? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record note, by the way, that Exhibit 5070, is -the tour of the basement which has been previously identified and -signed. In a moment I am going to ask you to identify and endorse -your signature or initials below my signature or initials on each one -of these pages of the various documents. In other words--in order to -separate them, I direct your attention now to Exhibit 5065, being the -FBI report of November 24, 1963. As to each one of these documents, -I want to ask you this: Does that document correctly represent the -truth and facts such as you know them? Has anything been deleted? Has -anything been omitted? Do any facts stated need any modification or -change of any sort whatsoever? - -Captain TALBERT. You want me to read them again; do you, sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Just enough to identify them. You have already studied them. - -Captain TALBERT. The first document marked---- - -Mr. HUBERT. 5065? - -Captain TALBERT. 5065. In the last three and a half lines reading: "He -said the press and other news agencies had set up for Oswald's transfer -from the city jail to the county jail, and that day he did not feel the -police department would want to cross the news agencies," and if those -were my words it wouldn't be--it is probably a matter of semantics. -Probably a matter of our conversation with the sheriff--after he -conversed with me, I had a interview, a brief conversation with Newsom -concerning the fact that chief would contact him upon returning to city -hall, and I do not recall that. I don't recall that. I don't refute it. -I just don't recall it. Shall I initial it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Please. If you will please sign your name under it. I -understand, therefore, that you have no recollection of having said -that you doubted that they were changing the plans because of any fear -that they might have of crossing the press? - -Captain TALBERT. Sure, it would be improper, and the--even an inference -of a statement like that sort would be improper for a police captain to -make, and those are not my words. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you expressed any idea of the same nature, but -in other words? - -Captain TALBERT. Perhaps the time lapse, I can't recall, but, as I -say, it may be a matter of semantics, and the way he understood it and -what I had said. As I recall my conversation with him, it was rather -difficult to get him back to the phone. I went through two or three -people to get him to the phone, and as I recall about the conversation, -it was rather brief and to the point, that I had contacted the chief -and the chief would contact him when he got to the office, which would -be between 8:30 and 9. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember discussing any possible change of plans at -all with him? - -Captain TALBERT. None. I discussed no change of plans with Mr. Newsom. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss the possibility of a change of plans in the -light of the new---- - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall mentioning, in any way, the concept, the -basic concept of that sentence, that is, that the press would be -considered whatsoever in the thinking about those plans for the -transfer? - -Captain TALBERT. In conversing with the sheriff, and our conversation -either from the sheriff or from me, and I think probably from the -sheriff, the subject arose that the chief had told the press that -they could arrive at the city hall at 10 o'clock, or thereabouts, the -previous day, and that was with Sheriff Decker. Not with Mr. Newsom, -as I recall it. Now, I have--several months have passed since--and -my memory becomes vague on it, so, must have been--possibly maybe a -matter of semantics, maybe a matter of conversing, or conversation -between Newsom and the sheriff of our having had this brief -conversation. Now, the rest, when you ask if we had any conversation -regarding a change of plan in the transferring, I answered you -incorrectly and I don't recall discussing it with Newsom at all. I did -discuss it with Sheriff Decker and said that the chief would contact -him. Any discussion with him was very brief and that the chief would -contact him about the transfer of Oswald when he arrived at the office. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you any other comments to make concerning -this document? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you pass then on back to 5066, which also is an FBI -statement. - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; on this document 5066, it indicates--and -this too is a matter of semantics, I am thinking. It indicates that -Ruby rushed in with newsmen. That--shall I read it and finish it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, put the part you read in quotes and end the quote and -make your comments. Just start off with the word "quote" where you want -to start. - -Captain TALBERT. "There were approximately 150 news reporters and -television cameramen that----" - -Closing the quote. The 150, in my opinion, mind, which is relatively -fluid, by the way anybody will estimate a crowd, "150 including police -officers, news media and television cameramen," approximately 150 in -the basement. Now, not news media alone, and--" He stated in the rush -to get down into the basement in which the loading ramp was located -and Oswald was being brought down from the jail, it is highly possible -that Jack Ruby may have been--walked down the ramp with the newsmen, -unnoticed." - -That is, again, something that I couldn't--could not and would not -have stated, because the newsmen were in the basement. There was no -rush of newsmen into the basement. They were in the basement, and they -had been in the basement some hour before Oswald was brought into the -basement. I don't know how this was injected into this report, but it -is incorrect. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you any other comments to make in -regard to Exhibit 5066? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, "According to Captain Talbert, now, Will Fritz -was in charge about removing Oswald to the Dallas County Jail, and -the attempted removal of the prisoner Oswald about 11 a.m." That was -my opinion. Shouldn't that be inserted there? It was my opinion that -Captain Fritz was in charge of the removal of Oswald from the city jail -to the county jail. I had no prior information on it, and still have no -information on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the basis of your opinion? - -Captain TALBERT. The fact that he wanted him in his office from the -jail. He had taken him out of the jail on a "tempo," which is a -temporary release from the jail to the CID bureau, or CID office, is -the fact that he had him out of the jail at the time is what I based it -on. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. All right, now, have you any further comments on -5066? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to sign your name below mine and initial -these pages. Have you done that? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, pass then to 5067, and I will ask the same basic -questions as to that document and its several pages. - -Captain TALBERT. 5067, is my report to the chief of police, and I have -no exceptions on it. I read the report, and it is, in fact, similar to -one that I had issued to the chief regarding the incident on the date -of the 26th--November 26th. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are initialing now each page below by initial, and you -are signing your name to the first page below my signature? - -Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you turn then to Exhibit 5068, and address -yourself to the same basic questions that I asked you originally. - -Captain TALBERT. In Exhibit 5068, I have no exceptions whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just sign your name below mine then. Finally that brings -up to Exhibit 5069. Do you have any comments to make with reference to -that document? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; on Exhibit 5069, in there--and again due to -semantics or to my lack of ability to express myself, some corrections -that need to be made on the first page of 5069. It indicates "Captain -Talbert directed Lieutenant Pierce to call in 3 squads from their -district assignments from 3 different stations to take 4 individuals -from the headquarters station." The word "individuals" should be squads. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you weren't talking about 4 people, but 4 -squads? - -Captain TALBERT. Four patrol squads. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which would constitute a number of people---- - -Captain TALBERT. Which I had already directed him to get as many 2-man -squads as possible. I do not have a copy of the details but I could get -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. No, that's all right. - -Captain TALBERT. The actual number--and on to the next page of the same -exhibit, he added at this time that there were no reserve officers -utilized in the basement of the police building, and that specific -arrangements were made to inspect the vicinity of the basement. There -were reserve officers used in the police building. When it says -"basement,"--there were reserve officers used in the basement of the -police building. This up here about the "CID," I mean the "detectives," -rather than the "supervisor," that should be changed too, and "Pierce's -car," also. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are speaking of the fifth page of---- - -Captain TALBERT. Let me initial that down there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were talking about something which appears on -the fifth page of Exhibit 5069, in the top paragraph. Will you read -the sentence, starting with the word "quote" and ending with the word -"quote" and then comment upon the sentence? - -Captain TALBERT. "Captain Talbert could also recall that upon arrival -of the armored car, at the Commerce Street exit a plain car with -three detectives were sent out the Main Street rampway so as to be in -position in front of the armored car for the purpose of escort." The -word "detective" should be changed to "three supervisors," "uniformed -supervisors," and those men were Lieutenant Pierce and--it identifies -them later, but they were uniformed supervisors, and this 5-minute -element here, now, hold---- - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Captain TALBERT. On page 5, of the same exhibit, quote---- - -Mr. HUBERT. First, top paragraph? - -Captain TALBERT. The top paragraph quote, "Captain Talbert identified -the occupants of this car as being Lieutenant Pierce, who was at that -time driving, Sgt. J. A. Putnam who was in the right front seat, and -Sgt. B. J. Maxey, he was in the left rear seat. He was later informed -by Lieutenant Pierce that it was approximately 5 minutes prior to the -shooting of Oswald that they had proceeded from the basement, left -the city hall." That this seems to indicate the time element from the -vehicle leaving the basement, and the time that Oswald was shot was -indicated to me as being 5 minutes. That was incorrect and I believe -now that the indication was that it was approximately 5 minutes from -the time Lieutenant Pierce had left the homicide office until the time -Oswald was shot. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your recollection is now that what Pierce -told you later was that 5 minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting -and the time prior thereto, that he had left the CID office? - -Captain TALBERT. That's it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whereas, the statement that you have just read and quoted -would indicate that the 5 minutes was between the time of leaving the -basement and the shooting? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you think that it was a mistake, that you did not -intend to convey that idea of what Pierce told you? - -Captain TALBERT. That's quite correct. I didn't intend to convey that -idea. - -Mr. HUBERT. That, in fact, is your recollection now of what Lieutenant -Pierce told you? - -Captain TALBERT. As I recall now, Lieutenant Pierce told me that from -the time he left the basement until the time--and from the time he left -the basement ramp and the time he reached the Commerce Street ramp, the -shooting had occurred, and that time lapse would be a minute and three -quarters, or 2 minutes at the most. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether Pierce ever talked to you about a -5-minute interval? - -Captain TALBERT. The 5-minute interval, I can't recall; no, sir. I -don't recall that, but if we want to leave it in here it could have -been from the time--it would have been right from the time he left -the homicide office until the time of the shooting. I don't recall -the 5-minute interval. Now, at the time, it may have happened, but my -memory now is--does not bring it back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, your correction really---- - -Captain TALBERT. Is incorrect? - -Mr. HUBERT. Is, in a way, incorrect, because you have corrected to -refer to a 5-minute interval and you now tell me that you have no -recollection of talking about a 5-minute lapse at all. - -Captain TALBERT. Right, sir. I am merely trying to account for the -minutes there in my own---- - -Mr. HUBERT. But you do not recollect Pierce telling you anything about -5 minutes at all? - -Captain TALBERT. I can recall the route he took and where he stopped, -but I can't recall the 5 minutes entering into it at all, and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; any further corrections or observations? - -Captain TALBERT. Rather a minute one on page 6. Let me get that. That -is about passing out the pads. I don't--to get that identification--I -don't think there is any point in answering that. - -On page 7, of the same exhibit and the first paragraph, "In regard to -this particular assignment Captain Talbert advised that he was acting -on his own behalf concerning the security measures and it wasn't on -instructions by any particular superior as to what he was or was not -to do. At no time prior to the transfer did Talbert receive specific -instructions concerning the details of the transfer, and most of this -information was obtained during the course of the morning." - -In essence, that's true, but to understand the setup of the police -function--I was the patrol commander on duty during that period and -there was no necessity to give me instructions by anyone in--any -superior or any of my superiors as to any incident that would require -emergency action or restraintive action. The patrol function is for an -emergency function, and to take care of the immediate difficulties, or -immediate trouble. So, it leaves the impression in that paragraph that -someone was derelict in their not informing me prior to that morning, -about not informing me of the course of the transfer and the other -details, when actually, it wasn't necessary. And had Captain Souter or -Captain Frazier been on duty I think they would have taken the same -action. This is a patrol function. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, your comment is that what you did was -standard operating procedure? - -Captain TALBERT. Standard operating patrol function. If you find -trouble arising, try to offset it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that you would be expected to put into operation such -standard operating procedure? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that they would understand that you would take such -procedures without any particular orders? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the essence of your---- - -Captain TALBERT. The essence of what I was trying to convey. And, -second paragraph, same page, it refers, "Captain Talbert continues to -say he has never worked for Jack Ruby in any way whatsoever, but did -hear through rumors that an individual by the name of Cox was alleged -to be a reserve officer, was at one time employed by Jack Ruby." That -statement arose from having read the newspapers in which Cox gave a -statement to the newspaper, the newsmen, and said that he had worked -for Jack Ruby. It was not of my knowledge. I didn't know Cox. We have -no police sergeant--that is supposed to have been a Sergeant Cox, and -we have no police sergeant named Cox. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I understand your explanation, you do not deny that you -made that statement, but the information you based the statement on you -received from the newspapers and not from your own knowledge at all? - -Captain TALBERT. True, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And do you have any knowledge on the point? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I still don't know Cox. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any other comments? - -Captain TALBERT. And the fourth paragraph, same page. That is fourth -paragraph, page 7, same exhibit. "In regard to any background -information concerning Jack Ruby, Captain Talbert stated that he was -never personally acquainted with Jack Ruby, and when he did see Jack -Ruby, he could only recall that it was a familiar face. He related that -he could not associate the name with the face, and was not aware that -Ruby was a nightclub owner in Dallas * * *." I intended to convey that -the face of Ruby did not associate itself in my mind with nightclubs -in the Dallas area. Although, the name of Ruby associates itself with -a reputation of Ruby by--as a nightclub operator in Dallas, quite -vividly. I am quite familiar with his nightclubs by name, and associate -the name with the unsavory background. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that knowledge concerning Ruby, had you used it prior -to the events of the 24th? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes; that knowledge existed prior to the events of -the 24th, and were police records. And other police officers conveying -their information to me as to activities around his club. I--around his -sister's club out on Oak Lawn, the Vegas Club and the whole name of -Ruby and Ruby's sister and their operation of their clubs was familiar -to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you used the word "unsavory" in connection with him? - -Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I did. Can she hold this? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I'd rather---- - -Captain TALBERT. You can put it in later. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Do you have any other things, other comments to -make with reference to it? - -Captain TALBERT. Not to that specific exhibit, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; will you then initial---- - -Captain TALBERT. I think that is the final one. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether it was ever considered moving Ruby by -use of the Main Street basement entrance? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean moving Oswald. - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I had no information on that and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not hear that discussed? - -Captain TALBERT. I had--I never heard any rumors to that effect. Didn't -hear it discussed and I never heard any rumor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else that you would like to say -concerning any of the matters that we have discussed, Captain Talbert? - -Captain TALBERT. Only say that with the explanation of how the basement -has been secured, and my personal examination of the basement, I was of -the opinion that no unauthorized person could enter that basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. To what did you attribute the failure of the security? - -Captain TALBERT. The final reason, or the official investigation is -one that I can't refute, and I am sure you are familiar with it, that -Officer Vaughn on the Main Street entrance stepped out to the curb as -Lieutenant Pierce pulled the plain car out to put it in front of the -armored car just prior to the shooting, and that is the route that Ruby -said he took into the station, and it--as far as any investigation has -been, that is the route he took. I can't---- - -Mr. HUBERT. There is no positive evidence indicating any other route? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir; and the only--hold it a minute. I want--there -was an extra police officer standing--still wanted in? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, all right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you would like to add other than -what we have talked about? - -Captain TALBERT. My primary concern that morning was with the crowd -control, the mob control. Our warning had been against a possible -larger group of people taking Ruby away from the officers. They had -told the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean Oswald? - -Captain TALBERT. I'm sorry. Taking Oswald away from the officers. They -had been told, the person who answered the phone in the FBI office, -that he wanted the information transmitted to the police department -that no police officers would be injured, and, of course, that was -discounted as no police officer being injured by it, but nevertheless, -the crowd action was highly probable, and our primary objective was to -prevent, or control, crowd action. I had a total of three gas grenade -kits and projectile kits in the basement, that is my own, and the -officer's riot guns, if that becomes necessary, although, the crowd can -be controlled by gas if we couldn't do it with brute force, we could do -it with gas. But the event that did occur, where one person dashed out -of a crowd and shot a person and literally laid down, said, "Here I am. -I did it," in pride was rather stunning. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, captain, have you been interviewed by any member of -the Commission other than the interview that you have had with me? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. As to the interview with me, now, there was one yesterday, -I think that is about it, is that right? - -Captain TALBERT. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. They--the one with you yesterday and this one has been the -only interview? - -Captain TALBERT. The only interview has been with you yesterday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything that you can think of between the -deposition you have given today and the interview we had, which is -inconsistent with one another? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you, or did you provide any material or facts in any -of the interviews which haven't been developed on the record? - -Captain TALBERT. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then one final thing; is there anything else you -wish to say? - -Captain TALBERT. I don't think there is anything else I could say that -would add materially to your investigation, sir. It is--if there were, -I'd be delighted to do so. - -Mr. HUBERT. If something should occur to you which has not been covered -here or in any other report, I want you to feel free to contact us and -tell us that you want to add what should be added. - -Captain TALBERT. I would do so immediately. There is no one more -concerned with finding out how Ruby got in the basement to shoot Oswald -than myself, so, I am with you. I would love to find out how he got -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you, and on behalf of the Commission, I -want to thank you for your cooperation and time. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHARLES OLIVER ARNETT - -The testimony of Charles Oliver Arnett was taken at 8 p.m., on March -25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, -assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff -of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission itself was set up -under an Executive order issued by President Johnson and congressional -resolution passed by Congress. - -Pursuant to these official acts, the Commission itself has promulgated -a set of rules of procedure, and under these rules of procedure I have -been authorized to come here and take your sworn deposition. Captain -Arnett, I want to explain to you a little bit of the general nature of -our inquiry here. We are concerned with the assassination of President -Kennedy and the final death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have been -empowered and requested by the President to investigate all the facts -and evaluate and then report this back to the President. - -We have asked you to come here because we believe that you may have -some facts that might be pertinent, particularly to the death of Lee -Oswald. However, we are also concerned with the entire picture in the -examination, and if there is anything that you think would be helpful -to us, why, of course, we want to take that. Mr. Hubert and myself -are not working on an intensive basis on the other aspects of things, -outside of Ruby. So what I will do is ask you a few general things -which might have some bearing upon the death of the President that -would enable other people to look at it and see if you were somebody -that might have information, and then we will get into the other -problems. - -Now, the mechanics by which we asked you to come here by, the general -counsel of the Commission sent a letter to Chief Curry indicating -that we would like to talk to you and certain other police officers. -Actually, under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have a -written letter from the Commission, 3 days in advance of your testimony -here, but the rules also provide that you can waive this notice. Before -I swear you in, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the -notice provision? - -Mr. ARNETT. Oh, sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are also entitled to have an attorney, and I see -that you don't have an attorney, and I take it that you don't want one. - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any questions you would like to ask me -about the thing before I swear you in? - -Mr. ARNETT. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that -the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name? - -Mr. ARNETT. Charles Oliver Arnett. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And when were you born, Mr. Arnett? - -Mr. ARNETT. September 6, 1911. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now? - -Mr. ARNETT. 1223 South Waverly Drive, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are employed with the Dallas Police Department, is -that right? - -Mr. ARNETT. No. I am a captain on the reserve. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you explain what the difference is between the -reserve and the police department? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. Reserves were established about 10 or 11 years -ago, to assist in, say, tornadoes or, you know, something that came up -that they needed more help in to be trained on that. We don't draw any -pay from the Dallas Police Department at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who does pay you? - -Mr. ARNETT. Nobody. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a completely voluntary thing on your part? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a regular occupation on the side? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; I drive a truck. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And for whom do you work? - -Mr. ARNETT. Certain-Teed Products Co. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with them? - -Mr. ARNETT. Fourteen years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the police reserve? - -Mr. ARNETT. A little over 10 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you had any special training in connection with -your duties in the police reserve? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; went through school. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us a little bit about that school? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, when I was going through, we went on Friday night, -I believe it takes 7-1/2 months, if I remember right, to complete the -course. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was this that you went through the school? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's been a little over 10 years now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went every Friday night? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For how many hours a night? - -Mr. ARNETT. Two hours. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And as a result you became an officer in the reserve? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, since you have been in the reserve, how frequently -would you be called to duty? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I was a sergeant to start with. We had 2 nights a -month, I believe it was, that we were assigned to be here. You could -come more times than that if you had the opportunity. Then I made -lieutenant, which put me over more men, and April 6, either 3 or 4 -years ago, I was made captain, and I have, I believe 80 some odd men -under my company B. I am captain over company B. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you go through the training school, do your men -engage in regular training of any sort, with the police department? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well they ride on the squads and observe what's going on -and special things like Texas-Oklahoma football rally. We work in that. -State Fair of Texas. Usually somebody assigned to that every night -during the Fair, and such as the President's parade. There were, I -believe say 30 some odd--27 or 28, I believe it was, was assigned to -that. Just things like that, or what we are assigned to, and then we -have our regular nights that we ride squads, that we ride with squads -or whatever---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How often are you assigned to ride squads? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, the patrolmen usually ride on their regular nights. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that once a week or once every 2 weeks? - -Mr. ARNETT. Now, they are assigned twice a month, but if they have the -time they usually come down once a week. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And for how long do they ride? - -Mr. ARNETT. Oh, usually report around 7 or 7:30 at night until 10:30, -11 o'clock. Some of them ride longer than that, but that's the usual -case. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they in uniform at that time when they ride? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they receive any pay for that? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any other training programs that these men -undergo once they have gone through the initial 7-month program? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, each fall they go out to the pistol range. I would -say for four or five Saturdays, something like that. I might be off a -week or something like that, but somewhere in that neighborhood, for -training out there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else you can think of? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, right offhand, I don't believe there are. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to mark these couple of documents here, and -then we will talk about these [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark what is an interview that you had -with two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Mabey -and Mr. Kenneth P. Hughes, on December 4, 1963. I am going to mark -that Dallas, Tex., C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5032. And the next -document that I am going to mark is what purports to be a copy of a -letter that you prepared--signed, rather, dated November 27, 1963, -and addressed to Chief Curry, having to do with the events that you -observed on November 24, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., -C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5033. Now, I am going to hand these two -exhibits to you, Captain Arnett, and I want to ask you if you have -examined those. Have you had a chance to read them? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections, changes that -you want to make in those, after having had a chance to read them? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us where they are and we will see if we -can't do that. - -Mr. ARNETT. Right here. "He was stationed at the door of Chief Curry's -office--" [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, this is on Exhibit 5032, and you are -referring to the language in the second paragraph on the first page. -You stated that you were stationed in the door of Chief Curry's office. -Go ahead. - -Mr. ARNETT. I was stationed at Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. ARNETT. See, they have got it wrong. They have got it down Chief -Curry, when it was Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you take my pen, then, and make the -change on there, and cross out what's wrong and make an entry nearby to -indicate what's correct, and then initial it? - -Mr. ARNETT. Just scratch out this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I would say scratch out Chief Curry and write in Captain -Fritz, if that's correct. - -Mr. ARNETT. How do you spell Fritz? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z. - -Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Apostrophe s, I guess. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z-'-s. - -Mr. ARNETT. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you initial, put your initials by each one of -those changes and put a date out there, 3-25-64. Are there any other -corrections that you think ought to be made there? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any right now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, did you serve in connection with the -President's parade? - -Mr. ARNETT. Was I at the parade? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any duties as a reserve officer in connection -with President Kennedy's arrival? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what those duties were? - -Mr. ARNETT. I was at large, but I worked between Harwood and St. Paul, -on Main Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when were you first told that you would have some -responsibility in connection with the procession of the President -through Dallas? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, probably the day before. I am not going to say that -for sure. I could be wrong a day or two, but I think it was the day -before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have any men that you were responsible for -supervising? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men did you supervise on that particular day? - -Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, we had 27 or 28 reserves in the -detail. We assigned them out of the assembly room to various locations -up and down where the parade would be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you attend any meeting prior to November 22, -in which you got instructions as to what you were going to do in -connection with the parade? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; other than the assembly room that morning, when we -assigned the men out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived at the police department on the -morning of November 22, what time was it that you got there, do you -remember? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like it was around 10 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to 10 o'clock on November 22, had you received -any instructions as to what your duties were going to be, in particular -with respect to the parade? - -Mr. ARNETT. Other than just work in the parade is all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you arrived, who did you report to? - -Mr. ARNETT. To the assembly room. And right offhand, now, I can't tell -you who was in charge of the regular officers. At that time I knew, and -it seems to me like it was Lieutenant ----. I can't recall his name -right now. Maybe I will think of it directly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's all right. Was there a meeting of all the -reserve officers in the assembly room? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions at that time? - -Mr. ARNETT. At that time they were each one assigned their location to -work. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. ARNETT. And not to--if they was booing the President or not--you -know, getting out of line or anything, not to bother anybody, but if -you saw anybody that was--acted as though they was going to bodily -harm--you know, injure body, well, to notify the police officer, -regular officers, you know, of what was going on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall who gave--you say this was the -lieutenant that gave these instructions? - -Mr. ARNETT. It was a lieutenant that assigned us out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who gave you these instructions that you -are talking about? - -Mr. ARNETT. It seems like it was Captain Lawrence, but I couldn't swear -to that, but it's---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Captain Solomon have any responsibility in that regard? - -Mr. ARNETT. It may have been Captain Solomon that gave us that. It was -a captain, I am almost certain and I feel like--I know Captain Solomon -was in the building, in the meeting with us, and it could have been him -that gave us instructions. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The instructions that were given, did they have -to do with anything other than watching the crowd, were you instructed -to watch any other places besides the crowd? - -Mr. ARNETT. You mean any particular buildings? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or just buildings generally; were you instructed to watch -the windows in buildings or watch the roofs or anything like that? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say that anything like that in particular -was named, but it was, you know, to watch and see--keep the crowd back -out of the street and see that nobody, you know, rushed out there -against the President's car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you served in connection with other parades? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other Presidential or political parades like this? - -Mr. ARNETT. At one time Vice President Nixon came to the opening of the -Fair, and I was there for that. Some man walked up to me and told me -that he would like to present a pair of boots to the Vice President. A -Secret Service man, I suppose, was standing close enough that he heard -what the man said to me, and he asked me what the man said, and I told -him, and he said, "Certainly he can't give him a pair of boots. Get his -name and address and if he wants to mail the Vice President a pair of -boots he can later." That's all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the instructions that were given down in the assembly -room, did they differ in any way from the instructions that would -normally be given at any other parade that you worked in? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean at other parades was it the custom to bring you -into the assembly room or---- - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then give instructions as to what you should do and what -to watch out for? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of the men under your supervision assigned to the -area of the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there were any men at all of the -reserve officers assigned to the area of the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the fact that you don't recall; would you have been -made aware of that? - -Mr. ARNETT. I had a list of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You did. And did that list show the areas where they were -assigned? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have a copy of that list? - -Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon does. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on this list did it show where each particular man -was to stand, was to be placed? - -Mr. ARNETT. They would either be on the west side of Harwood or they -would be on the east side of Harwood, between block so-and-so; Main the -same way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But would it show Charles O. Arnett, corner of Main and -Harwood? - -Mr. ARNETT. I was working at large. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would it show, if I were working there, would it -show Burt W. Griffin, corner of Main and Harwood? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did you do when you heard that the -President had been shot? - -Mr. ARNETT. Had an aunt that was to be buried at 2 o'clock that -afternoon, and the President's parade was later than it had been -predicted, and when it was over with, prior to the President's arrival -at the--between Harwood and Pacific on Main, a young lady in her -twenties, maybe 30 years old, came up to me and said, "There is some -kids right down there that's got a gun and some toy handcuffs and a -knife." I said, "Would you show them to me?" She said "Well, I rather -not." So I went and got Earl Sawyer, a police officer that was working -the corner of Harwood and Main, and told him of it. He and I went back -to the lady and he asked her. She said, "Oh, it's just a toy pistol." -But some little girls there with us told us where they were, about -where they were standing, and we walked up to them, asked them about -the gun and stuff. They said the boy with the gun had walked off, but -one of them give us a pair of handcuffs and a knife, and I taken him, -and Sawyer went with me, and we carried him to the juvenile department -up on the third floor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a real knife that the kid had? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. The gun turned out to be a blank, like they -shoot--oh, at starting races or something like that, you know. When the -parade was past us, one of these smaller boys that was in the group -come up to me and asked me when his buddy would be turned loose. I -said, "I don't know, son, but I will go up there with you to try to -find out where he is." So we went up there on the third floor of the -juvenile department. While I was in there someone rushed in and said, -"The President has been shot." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there with you at that time in the juvenile -department; do you recall any of the officers that were there? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe Captain Martin--now, I could be wrong on -the name, but he is over the juvenile department, or was. You know, -the captain that they--that had the kid that we had carried up there. -So I came back downstairs then and I saw two or three highway patrol, -driver's license men---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt here just a second, give you a few names -of people who were in that department, juvenile department, and see if -you recognize any of those as having been present. Was Detective Lowery -there? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember him being. Now, he may have been. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Goolsby there? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Detective Miller there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say, and I wouldn't say without telling -you the truth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know L. D. Miller, Louis D. Miller? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I do or not. I do know Lowery, and I -do know the officer---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery and Goolsby. How about the Officer Harrison? - -Mr. ARNETT. Blackie Harrison? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Blackie Harrison? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know him? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he there at the time? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall him being there at the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go after you left the boy in the juvenile -bureau? - -Mr. ARNETT. That was when I carried the second boy up to see about his -buddy? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I went downstairs and on the street. As I say, I saw three -or four Texas Highway Department driver's license men, and I said, "The -President has been shot." And they said, "Oh, Arnett, what size camera -was he shooting?" They thought, you know, I was joking. So I went on -and got in my car. By that time squads were going everywhere. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this your private car? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes; went home to change clothes out of my uniform into -civilian clothes, to go to my aunt's funeral. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, which way did you drive? - -Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went down Young Street. I did. I went down -Young Street to avoid all this traffic of squads and everything -going---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Young Street in what direction? - -Mr. ARNETT. West. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Headed west? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Over the Houston Street viaduct to Oak Cliff. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Does Young intersect Jackson any place? - -Mr. ARNETT. Jackson runs along beside it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Runs parallel to it. Did you go by the Greyhound Bus -station? - -Mr. ARNETT. Did I go by it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I would have been one block south of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you estimate that it was that you -went over the Houston Street viaduct? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was shortly before 1 o'clock, because I -had to rush to get out of these clothes into other clothes to get to -Grapevine, which is only 20 miles, something like that, to be there at -2 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got across the Houston Street viaduct, is -there a point where you come to Zangs Boulevard? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to Zangs? - -Mr. ARNETT. I went Zangs to Jefferson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to the corner of Zangs and Beckley at any -point in your trip out there? - -Mr. ARNETT. No. Beckley would have been a block east of where I was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you drove this route, did you see anything? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any importance to the Commission? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I take it then you went on out to the -funeral, or wherever you had to go? - -Mr. ARNETT. I went on home. I had my police radio on. Before I arrived -at my home I heard someone come in on the radio and say, "A police -officer has been shot." And further, maybe a block or two, he says, -"I believe he is dead." And I changed my clothes right quick and got -in my car to go to Grapevine. I came back down Clarendon to the R. -L. Thornton Expressway, taken R. L. Thornton Expressway to Highway -114--well, it turns into Stemmons Expressway, you know, automatically, -Highway 114, and I was listening all the time of this transaction of -the police officer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening on a police radio? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Let me ask you this, this is your own private car? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the police radio broadcast over a frequency that can -be heard on ordinary radio receivers? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of special adaptation do you have to have on -your receiver to pick this up? - -Mr. ARNETT. They call it a converter. It's hooked in with your radio. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this an FM converter; do they broadcast on an FM -frequency, do you know? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, seems to me like it used to be AM and you could pick -it up then by having your radio fixed a certain way, but they quit -that. You couldn't do it no more, so you had to buy this converter -to go with your radio to get it. And I listened to the move from the -library over in Oak Cliff to the Texas Theater, and was listening to it -when they got him, but I was at Grapevine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the automobiles called in from the outlying -districts over your radio, when you were listening to it; did you hear -any communications from the dispatcher or otherwise, calling police -cars in from the outlying districts? - -Mr. ARNETT. They were giving a description of the man that they had a -description on, and then after the policeman was shot, Tippit, well, -they was giving the description of it, and they first thought he was in -the library over in Oak Cliff. Then they moved to a vacant house, then -they moved to the Texas Theater. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you go back to the police station on -Friday, after you heard that Tippit had been shot? - -Mr. ARNETT. After the funeral, after my aunt's funeral was over, I came -home, ate supper and went back in uniform, came back down here and -worked on the third floor at the elevator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you arrived at the third -floor? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say 6 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you arrived at the elevator, -had there been a system set up for admitting people to the third -floor--let's put it this way, excluding people from the third floor? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's what I started doing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody else doing that at the elevator -before you arrived, before you got there? - -Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether there was anybody assigned there -before I got there or not, but there was a Sergeant Ellis, I believe, -and Sergeant Dugger, were there with me when I was working there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you replace anybody? - -Mr. ARNETT. Now, I am not going to say that I did or I didn't, because -I couldn't tell you and be telling you the truth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get your instructions from? - -Mr. ARNETT. I believe it was Sergeant Ellis, I believe it was, now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a regular sergeant? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ride on the elevator? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I was in front of it, and as people got off they -had to show their identification. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you recognize Jack Ruby? - -Mr. ARNETT. Did I recognize him? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I mean, did you know Jack Ruby up to this point? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of identification did you ask for when people -got off of the elevator? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, if they was a press reporter, they had a press card, -showing who they were, and they were from everywhere, coming in there. -You would be surprised how far they had traveled that day. You know, I -was--I didn't think about people being there that day, you know, from -so far up. One man told me he was asleep in Chicago. They woke him -up and told him the President had been killed, and he was there that -night, I would say by 8 o'clock. There was one man in particular that I -remember, that came up. He said he was a postal inspector. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Postal inspector? - -Mr. ARNETT. He showed me his identification, said he would like to talk -to Captain Fritz, that he had a key to the post office box down there -that this fellow had, and he wanted to see if that key did fit it, or -he had a key and he wanted to see if it would--was to that box. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many of you were standing there at the third -floor elevator, checking identification of people who got off the -elevator? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say four. Two elevators. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do about people who came up, who said they -came up to see somebody who was being questioned, or in connection with -some other business other than being a photographer or---- - -Mr. ARNETT. If they didn't have an identification of pressmen or ranger -or lawmen of some kind, they were turned back. There were two Spanish -men came up there who wanted to talk to some officer about a ticket, -and we notified whatever officer they wanted to talk to about it, and -told him to go downstairs and see them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a justice of the peace -card, would you have admitted him? - -Mr. ARNETT. A justice of the peace? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a card that said he -was an honorary deputy sheriff, or a courtesy card, some of the law -enforcement agents give out, are you familiar with those? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose someone had showed you one of those, would you -have let him in? - -Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't let anybody in who didn't have proper -identification, without notifying one of these regular officers -standing there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have considered this a proper identification? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember having that come up. Now, there were two -or three rangers there. One of them from Gainesville, Tex. I talked to -him a little bit and the captain of the rangers was there. I don't know -where he was from. He might have been from Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any lawyers come up? - -Mr. ARNETT. Lawyers? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any newspaper people come up who didn't show -you press cards who appeared to be newspaper people from the way they -conducted themselves? - -Mr. ARNETT. Two or three different times a news reporter would come up -and show a press card and say, "I have got a friend with me that's just -with me". I said he would just have to wait downstairs, and they did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you know, a number of police officers have stated -that they saw Jack Ruby up on the third floor on Friday evening. How do -you imagine that Ruby could have got by? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't know. After I was there that afternoon or that -night, I would say. I wasn't in the afternoon, because I was at that -funeral, but I don't believe Jack Ruby got up there after that time of -night. I didn't see Jack Ruby the entire time of that thing, until he -was in front of me in the basement, the 24th. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have recognized him? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain at the elevator doors all of the time -you were on duty on Friday? - -Mr. ARNETT. Friday night? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say I was there until around 11 o'clock that night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After 11 o'clock what did you do? - -Mr. ARNETT. I went home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody replace you on those doors? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that was? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give him any instructions as to what he was to do -in admitting people? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you come in on Saturday? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come in on Saturday? - -Mr. ARNETT. Around 2 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how late did you stay? - -Mr. ARNETT. Until about 11. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do the same sort of thing on Saturday? - -Mr. ARNETT. That afternoon I didn't work in front of the elevators, but -I did work over where the stairways are. There is a stairway that you -can walk down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I worked there with an officer. I believe his initials is -L. M. Baker. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there came a time Saturday night when you were -stationed by Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say around 7 or 8 o'clock that night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you notice while you were there whether any -newspaper people were going in to use the telephone in the homicide -office? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were stationed outside Captain Fritz' door. Do -you mean that you were inside the homicide office? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; I was outside. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you were stationed outside of the homicide -door? - -Mr. ARNETT. In the hallway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that wasn't really the door to Captain Fritz' office? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; his office is back inside, but you had to go through -that door to get to his office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if it wouldn't be clearer if we even edited this -other, instead of Captain Fritz, if we crossed that out and said to the -door to the homicide office? - -Mr. ARNETT. All right. Go ahead and write it in if you want to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me mark it [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. That would sound more reasonable, sensible, anyway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you initial those two places and date them -where I marked them [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. We got the date, is that all right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That's okay. All right. Now, did you see newspapermen -going in to use the telephone in other offices besides the homicide -bureau? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, really I just tell you the truth, there were so many -people in there and out--what I mean, there was a crowd there, and as -far as seeing what was going on in other offices, I couldn't tell you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time on Saturday night when you -received some instructions from one of the other officers? - -Mr. ARNETT. Did there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Lieutenant Merrell sometime that night? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time was that? - -Mr. ARNETT. It seemed to me like it was around 9 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And what did Lieutenant Merrell tell you? - -Mr. ARNETT. That Captain Solomon had called him and asked to get a few -reserves down there the next morning to help with the transfer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where was this told to you? - -Mr. ARNETT. It was told to me there at the door, to call Lieutenant -Merrell. I am trying to think where I went and called from. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody came up to you at the homicide office---- - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And said, "Call Lieutenant Merrell"? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you went and made a telephone call? - -Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went in Chief Curry's--not in his office, now, -but into the room where all the secretaries and everything are, and -used the telephone. I am almost certain I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Merrell some place outside of the building -or---- - -Mr. ARNETT. He was at home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He was at home. Is he a regular officer? - -Mr. ARNETT. He is a reserve lieutenant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He is a reserve lieutenant? - -Mr. ARNETT. He is my assistant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then Merrell told you that you would have to have some men? - -Mr. ARNETT. That they wanted some men, yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So somebody apparently had called Merrell to tell him -that, is that right? - -Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon, I believe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Solomon had called Merrell. Now, did you attempt -to locate some reserves that night? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you attempt to locate reserves that were already -in the police department building? - -Mr. ARNETT. I called Lieutenant McCoy, who was on duty, riding in a -squad car, put out a call for him to call me at the office, and he did, -and I gave him those instructions, to call some of his men the next -morning to be there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you tell Lieutenant McCoy that the men -should be there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at this point did you have any understanding as to -generally when Oswald would be moved; did you have any idea generally -when he would be moved? - -Mr. ARNETT. Chief Curry told the newsmen that if they were back by 10 -o'clock they would be plenty early. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Chief Curry tell them that? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than what you heard Chief Curry say, did you receive -any other information? - -Mr. ARNETT. Of what time it would be? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have your conversations with Lieutenant -Merrell and Lieutenant McCoy before or after Chief Curry made the -announcement to the press? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was probably a few minutes before I heard -him say that. I could be wrong about it. I am trying to, you know, -think whether it was or wasn't, but I am not certain about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the call that you issued to Lieutenant McCoy, would -that have gone through the dispatcher's office? - -Mr. ARNETT. For him to call me would--yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And they would have made a record of that, isn't that -right? - -Mr. ARNETT. It would have been recorded, but our conversation wouldn't -have been. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If we were to look at that record, would that be the most -accurate reflection of the approximate time that you had information -concerning the transfer of Oswald; in other words, is that the most -accurate---- - -Mr. ARNETT. It would be recorded all right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. My question is, we want to try to find out just exactly -how soon people would have known that something was going to happen. - -Now, is that record, that would be in the dispatcher's office the most -accurate or earliest record that would have been made of anything you -did in connection with the information you received about the move, -that Oswald was going to be moved the next day? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, it would show--you would have to first check and see -what squad McCoy was riding, to get the number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. You see? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It wouldn't go out to McCoy specifically? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; it would go to the squad he was riding with. His name -wouldn't have been on there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But now, would the dispatcher's statement over the radio, -would that say number such-and-such call number such-and-such, or would -it say number such-and-such call Captain Arnett? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe it would have said call the office. I don't -believe our names would have been mentioned on the air. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would there be a record of some kind that -we could use to find out what number designated Lieutenant McCoy? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, there would be a work sheet, assignment sheet, of -what squad he was riding in that night, the number of it. For instance, -we will just say 243 or 242 or--I don't know what number it was now, -but I am just saying those numbers, that it's possible he could have -been in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, do you know how long records of that sort are -retained by the police department? - -Mr. ARNETT. I suppose they are kept for a long time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it that you arrived at the Police and -Courts Building the next day? - -Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock a.m. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men would you estimate that you -contacted about this between the time that you got the word from -Lieutenant Merrell and the time you arrived at 9 o'clock? - -Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, I called Lieutenant Merrell--I mean -Lieutenant McCoy, and I saw Lieutenant Nicholson and told him to call -some of his men. If I remember right, though, those are the only two -people I contacted on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would Lieutenant Merrell have had occasion to contact -any other officers, to give instructions to men? - -Mr. ARNETT. He could have called some of the sergeants and told them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Would there have been any other captains who would -have given instructions similar to ones you gave? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, there are three more captains, but so far as I know -there wasn't any contacted, unless it was Captain Crump and I didn't -contact him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men did you attempt to get in that -next morning? - -Mr. ARNETT. I told them to have 8 or 9 to 10 men. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Each; each lieutenant? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; each one just get two or three men. We had 18. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had 18 all together? - -Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember where you parked your car before you -came in the building on Sunday morning? - -Mr. ARNETT. I either put it in the parking station west of the city -hall on Commerce Street or I parked it on the side street of Commerce. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember entering the building? - -Mr. ARNETT. Do I remember entering the building? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came through? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Down in the basement, from Commerce Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you walked down that Commerce Street entrance, at -that time were there any TV cables strung through there? - -Mr. ARNETT. The cameras were set up on the Commerce side, out there, -and I do believe that there were cables running through the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is one door there that enters into the hallway -that runs to the records room, as you get down the bottom of the steps -from Commerce Street, you open up the door and you can go down a -hallway toward the records room? - -Mr. ARNETT. Down that way [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Going north? - -Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are also in there, at the bottom of those steps -from the street, two other doors; do you recall that there are two -other doors there? - -Mr. ARNETT. They would be on Harwood Street, then? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. - -Mr. ARNETT. You mean there are two more doors on Commerce Street? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. One of them leads to the engine room. Are you -familiar with that door? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Another one leads into the subbasement. Are you familiar -with that door? - -Mr. ARNETT. Now, that's the one I am talking about I came in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You went down into the subbasement? - -Mr. ARNETT. See here, this is Commerce Street, and you walk down a -flight of steps, and there is a door, and you are going right towards -the records building. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there is a subbasement to that building? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; I misunderstand what you are talking about. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the subbasement in the--where the -police officers' locker room is? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Oh, yes. If that's what you are talking about. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you aware of the fact that there was a -door that led up from the subbasement right up under the stairs, on the -Commerce Street side? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I understand what you mean or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk off of the sidewalk on Commerce Street---- - -Mr. ARNETT. And go down in the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And go down in the basement, you get down there in the -basement and there is a door that goes into the hallway that runs up to -the records room? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two other doors in that area. One of them -is, if I am not mistaken, off to the right, as you face the hallway, -and that goes into the engine room; and there is another area--door, -rather, sort of at your back, as you look down that hallway, and that -goes down in the subbasement. Were you aware of that? - -Mr. ARNETT. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have no recollection of whether any of the TV -wires were strung any place except through the hallway to the records -room? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; I sure wouldn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, when you entered there, where did you go--and -got inside the building? - -Mr. ARNETT. I saw Lieutenant Wiggins, and he asked me if I could -replace one of his regular men that was out there behind the TV cameras -that--in other words, this is the basement [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think I can help you out here. Here is a diagram -of the basement, and here is the jail office and here is the parking -area, here is the ramp from Main Street, here is the ramp going up to -Commerce Street [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. We have got it turned right around to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, whichever way is easiest for you. All right. Now, -this is coming down from Main. That's Main [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. This is Commerce going out? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right. - -Mr. ARNETT. All right. The TV cameras were set up right in here. They -wanted to keep this open here. They didn't want any cars parking in -here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me draw two TV cameras; is that about where they were -placed, where I have got them there [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, behind the TV cameras---- - -Mr. ARNETT. It's wide enough for two automobiles to park. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Was there a man stationed behind those two TV -cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. There was a regular and they needed him out there, so I put -a reserve officer out there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that reserve officer that you put there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Worley. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now. I am going to put an X--well, you put an X -on the map where you think Worley was, and write his name in there, if -you will, please. - -Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] W-o---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] W-o-r-l-e-y. - -Now, what's your best estimate of what time it was that you put Worley -in there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Shortly after 9 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to say whatever it was, 9:15, whatever you think -it was? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, this may not be exact on the minute, but it will be -within 5 minutes or so [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Okay. - -Mr. ARNETT. I am going to put 9:10 [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. ARNETT. Because I did it as quick as I could after I was asked to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you placed Worley at -that spot? - -Mr. ARNETT. I went into the assembly room, and there were a few men -in there. I walked back outside and I believe that I talked to some -captain that needed five men down at the Elm-Houston Street viaduct, -and I went back in and asked them if they could send five men down -there and they said yes. They assigned five men to go down there and -they were sent down there in a squad car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that? - -Mr. ARNETT. After that, I got some more men out of the assembly room. -They were just coming in, you know, and Sergeant Dean and Sergeant -Putnam, we searched the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you accompany Sergeant Dean? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you accompany him all the way around? - -Mr. ARNETT. In this area, I did [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That's the area, sort of the Main Street portion? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's it (indicating). - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go with Sergeant Dean to the area that's marked on -the map stairs up, behind elevators No. 1 and No. 2. - -Mr. ARNETT. Did I go up the stairs? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Did you go to that area with him? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, this is the area I covered with him, from here, all -this right in here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The reporter can't see that, but you are indicating--we -have to get this down in words, so that the members of the Commission, -Chief Justice Warren and so forth will understand what we are talking -about here. - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating that you searched with Sergeant Dean -that portion of the garage which includes the elevators No. 1 and No. 2 -and the doorway to the stair up, correct? - -Mr. ARNETT. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got to those elevators, what did you and -Sergeant Dean do? - -Mr. ARNETT. As we searched them out, we placed men in this area -as we searched it out, there was a regular officer stationed here -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular officer stationed---- - -Mr. ARNETT. At the elevators [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put on the map where that regular officer was, -and put an X there? - -Mr. ARNETT. It was here in front of these elevators [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to write regular officer--do you know his name? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't. [Spelling] R-e---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular, yes. All right. Now, were these elevators -operating, these elevators No. 1 and No. 2, were they in operation? - -Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether they were or not. They wasn't -working at the time I was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You didn't see any boys, Negro boys in there? - -Mr. ARNETT. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door at this entranceway to the stairs up? - -Mr. ARNETT. Did you say are there a door there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door there; do you remember if there is a door -there? - -Mr. ARNETT. There is a door here that goes into this [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the first aid station? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. But now, I couldn't say whether there are or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall what investigation was made in -the area of that doorway there, toward the stairs up? What check you -and Sergeant Dean made? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, they probably were finishing their investigation here -and we were back over here. There is a building extends out from the -walls, and it doesn't go completely back against this ramp. There is -room for a man to walk in there, and I went and got a flashlight and---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to talk about this area right here. Do you -recall whether you and Sergeant Dean went over to that doorway that -leads to the stairs up? - -Mr. ARNETT. I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't go? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Did you go to that area where the first-aid station -is? - -Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make that part of the search there. We started -and came around this way, searched all these cars down through here, -and this building back here that I am telling you about, that doesn't -extend against the wall. I went and got a flashlight and Sergeant ---- -I will think of his name in a minute, reserve. His name starts with a H. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's okay. His name isn't necessary. You went back -there searched the---- - -Mr. ARNETT. We taken a flashlight in there and I held the flashlight -for him, and he got up in there and I give him the flashlight, and he -taken the flashlight and walked all back in here. There was room for a -man to walk in there [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are indicating is an area behind the jail -office---- - -Mr. ARNETT. No; it's not behind it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, here is the jail office [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, the one I am talking about, here is the ramp, see, -and the one I am talking about is like this, doesn't go completely -against the ramp. There is room for a man to walk in behind there -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than this northern portion of the basement, did -you search any other area with Sergeant Dean? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I stayed right in here. Some more reserves came in -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where I was? - -(The record was here read by the reporter.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After you searched the basement, where did you go? - -Mr. ARNETT. After I searched this portion of the basement [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I stayed right here. That's where the cars come in and out -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place an A where you stationed yourself -after the search of the basement, and would you put a circle -around that; would you write around that, after search of basement -[indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] B-a-s-p---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] B-a-s-e-m-e-n-t. Now, captain, how long did you -remain there at that position? - -Mr. ARNETT. Oh, it seems like 10 or 15 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go? - -Mr. ARNETT. J. C. Hunt took my place, another reserve officer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Replaced by J. C. Hunt? - -Mr. ARNETT. Hunt. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After about 15 minutes. Now, then where did you go? - -Mr. ARNETT. I had sent some men outside---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; where did you go? - -Mr. ARNETT. I went to different ones that were, you know, around in -here, of the reserves [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You circulated in the basement? - -Mr. ARNETT. In the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make assignments? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What assignments did you make? - -Mr. ARNETT. I sent Sergeant Cox and Sergeant ---- this little sergeant -that I was trying to name while ago--Could I call the man and ask him -that boy's name? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That's not really important. - -Mr. ARNETT. It isn't? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; did you assign people outside of the building? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make assignments to the various intersections? - -Mr. ARNETT. To keep people back. They were over here on the Commerce -south-side street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ARNETT. Keep people back off, on the sidewalk, and not let them on -the street [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You sent all your men to Commerce? - -Mr. ARNETT. No; not all of them. I sent three men up there at that -particular time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you send your other men? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, earlier, before this, I sent one to Commerce and -Pearl to work a signal light that had gone out of order. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Main and Pearl? - -Mr. ARNETT. Main and Pearl? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Elm and Pearl? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not before the shooting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignments on Elm Street? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignment on Main Street? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember of any. I did have a man in front of the -Credit Building--what do they call it, the Employees Credit Association -or Credit Union or something another. I did have a man up on the ramp -of it. That's out on Commerce Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you assign Mr. Newman to a place in the basement? - -Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make the assignment myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave the basement at any time after this -particular period that we are talking about, when you made these -assignments, did you leave the basement area? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. Not until after the shooting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. While you were in the basement, were you in the -garage and ramp area the entire time? - -Mr. ARNETT. After I left this particular spot here [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; where we marked the A? - -Mr. ARNETT. I was in this area right in here, and about 11:05 I took my -stand right in here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you spent your entire time then in the---- - -Mr. ARNETT. Basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Area between the entrance to the garage at the bottom of -the Commerce Street ramp and the portion where the Main Street ramp -narrows at the bottom, or widens out at the bottom? - -Mr. ARNETT. [No response.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you put a mark on the map where you were, where -you stationed yourself at about 11:05? - -Mr. ARNETT. Let's see if we understand each other here on this. Is this -the office where they come out of the jail [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. - -Mr. ARNETT. And this comes out so far and then this is the ramp -[indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. - -Mr. ARNETT. All right. I was right along in here then [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an A there, also? - -Mr. ARNETT. Okay [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And put a circle around that. - -Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you mark the time that you think you first -arrived there? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say 11:05. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How do you fix that time 11:05? - -Mr. ARNETT. I believe I looked at my watch. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write up a report on this on November 24? - -Mr. ARNETT. Did I write it up? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I made the statement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a letter to Chief Curry? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, that's the letter [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you didn't mention in that letter anything about -11:05. Was the first time that you thought about 11:05 when you were -interviewed by the FBI agents on December 4? - -Mr. ARNETT. You mean was that the first time I thought about it being -11:05 when I went there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, no; I wouldn't say it was the first time I thought -about it. It might have been that I didn't think about it when I was -writing that letter. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, captain, if you were to place the time that you -stationed yourself here, in terms of how much before--well, in terms -of the time that the armored car was in the ramp, did you place -yourself before or---- - -Mr. ARNETT. It was here before I went there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. This was after the armored car arrived? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before Lee Oswald was brought down? - -Mr. ARNETT. After I placed myself over there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, around 15 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time Oswald was brought down? - -Mr. ARNETT. I know what time the ambulance was called. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was that? - -Mr. ARNETT. 11:21. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you stationed yourself at that point, were the -floodlights from the TV cameras on? - -Mr. ARNETT. Were they on? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, they had been on all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They had been on all the time? - -Mr. ARNETT. They wasn't alive all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the cameras weren't alive? - -Mr. ARNETT. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you searched the basement, were the -floodlights on from those TV cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well now, whether they were on or not, I don't know. I -believe the machine was lighted up. Now, whether that's what you -call---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean the floodlights. - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say either way on that, because I -am not going to tell you anything I don't think is the truth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure the floodlights were on when you stationed -yourself at the point that we have marked as point A at the bottom of -the ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say lights were on. Now, whether they were -floodlights or not, I couldn't tell you. I don't know whether you say -just a light fitting there was a floodlight or the lights in the camera -or---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about the lights they use to illuminate -the picture they are going to take, throw out on the subject? - -Mr. ARNETT. I will say the cameras had a light in them. I will say -that. Now, whether you call them floodlights or not, I don't know. Now, -they tell me that they can be on and not be taking pictures unless -there is a red light burning. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Over where these TV cameras are, were there -some lights placed in association with those cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. All I can remember of, and I am trying to tell you the -truth---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Is that the light was on in the camera. You know what I -mean, that [indicating] was burning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if you have taken home movies or anything -like that, or just had your picture taken in a photographer's studio, -often they beam a lot of lights down? - -Mr. ARNETT. I know what you are talking about there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any lights like that over by these TV cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any like that, but they had to be for it -to be alive, I guess, but I don't remember them being on when this -happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Oswald came out you were where we put this A at the -bottom of the ramp, when you had occasion to look off into the garage -area, was it possible to distinguish objects, or distinguish people or -cars in there? - -Mr. ARNETT. There was a car came out the ramp, after we got in line, -and went out the ramp on North Main, up the ramp, out on North Main. We -broke up---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you this simple question, as you looked -out over in there, could you see cars or people or anything over -behind those TV cameras; could you see anything beyond those TV cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I saw this car that was coming out. Now, that was -before Lee Oswald was brought down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that car before it came out of the garage? - -Mr. ARNETT. I saw it coming out of the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see it before it came to the ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So do you have any recollection as to whether -you could see objects in that area? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't, I sure don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you watched that car come out of the garage? - -Mr. ARNETT. Uh huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you watch it go? - -Mr. ARNETT. It went out the Main Street entrance, up the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see it get to the top of the ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. I didn't look at it as it entered the top of the ramp. We -were getting back into position, but we did have to break up, because -we were all the way across the ramp, and we had to break up for it to -go out, but you know how you would do, you would back up against the -wall or something out of the way, for it to go by. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you had to break up. Was there a line formed -across there before the car came out? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, we were standing just, you know, side of one another -all the way across there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Sam Pierce's car? - -Mr. ARNETT. They say it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They say it was. Do you remember how many people were in -that car? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the last car that came out of the garage before -Lee Oswald was shot? - -Mr. ARNETT. There was one come out and backed up in position. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but was that the last one that went up the Main -Street ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. I said there was two cars to start with, and some of them -said there wasn't but one, and I said I guess there was just one, but -I thought at that time I remembered two cars going out, but I am not -going to swear that there were, because I could be wrong about that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I know that, but I want to know just what you remember -and whatever your recollection is. Then we will try to see how good it -really is. But what do you think you saw when this car--you say you -think you saw two cars go up the ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. I think so. That's my honest opinion about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That's what I want. Now, when you saw that first car go up -the ramp, how long would you say after the first car went up did the -second car go up? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, it wasn't very long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you watch that first car go up the -ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you were standing here where we have marked the A -and as you looked over toward the armored car, did you have occasion to -look over at that armored car? - -Mr. ARNETT. It was straight in front of me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was up near the top of the Commerce Street ramp, -wasn't it? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; or just inside. I don't believe it was all the -way under the shed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Chief Batchelor up there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Butler up there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Captain Butler? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember Captain Butler. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sergeant Dean, did you see him up in that area? - -Mr. ARNETT. Sergeant Dean. I believe I did. There was a bottle fell out -of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see the bottle fall out? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you actually see the bottle from where you were -standing? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you had occasion to look up the Main Street -ramp---- - -Mr. ARNETT. Well now, my back was to the Main Street ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Not the entire time; there were times when you looked up -that ramp too, wasn't there? You were down there for quite awhile? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't remember just, you know, turning around and -looking back up that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not there was an officer -stationed up there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; there was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him up there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you know who he was? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; he was a regular officer, though. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, a regular officer patrolman has a green patch on his -shoulder up here. A reserve officer has a white patch; a radio accident -investigator has a red patch. I believe traffic wears a brown. He was a -regular patrolman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see him before he got up to the top of that -ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. Did I see him before he got up there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. You mean did I see him going up there? Now, I may have seen -him in the basement, before he was sent up there. I don't know about -that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have remembered him, though; do you remember -seeing him in the basement before he was sent up? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not that I recall; no sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him walk up the ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So from where you were standing, I take it you could see -the green patch on his---- - -Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Coat. And you wear glasses, don't you? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you wearing glasses that time? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I use them mostly to read with or some work like -this [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is your eyesight without glasses 20-20? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; if they was I wouldn't be wearing glasses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you still tell me---- - -Mr. ARNETT. I see off at a distance good, but I can't see to read a -newspaper or something, a fine print or something close to me, but off -at a distance--I drive without glasses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You and I are sitting here maybe 6 or 8 feet away. Take -off your glasses. Do you have any trouble seeing me [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; not a bit. Where I have my trouble is fine print -and something like that [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your glasses off a second. - -Mr. ARNETT. Okay [complying]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hold up something here, and do you see a -colored spot on there [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. I see a red one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And I am holding this dictaphone package, about 10 feet -away from you, aren't I [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many red spots do you see on there? - -Mr. ARNETT. I only see one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. One big one? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one blurred one? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't know what you call a big one. It's about like my -little finger, end of it [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell what sort of shape it is? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it look like a triangle or an arrow? - -Mr. ARNETT. It looks like it goes up to a point and comes down to a -point and goes straight across the bottom [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that is pretty good for a man -born in 1911. This thing that I am holding up is a red arrow which -appears on the back of a Dictaphone belt holder, and this arrow, the -stem part of the arrow is not more than a quarter of an inch long. The -pointed part of the arrow is unquestionably the most prominent part of -it. - -I am going to ask you to hold it up and I am going to stand back -here and I will tell you that I have got my glasses on, but I am not -corrected at 20-20 vision. If I didn't know how that came up I would -have some difficulty telling what that is [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. Is that right? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I think that's pretty good. So you could see this -man's green patch on his---- - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. He was a patrolman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did you ever have occasion to look up that ramp? -How many times did you have occasion to look up that ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's like I say, I don't remember just turning around -and, you know, just looking up the ramp, but maybe walking into this -place to get into position or something or other, I was facing that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sort of looking around generally up there; I mean as you -walked around in this area we have marked "A," did you from time to -time glance up in this general direction? - -Mr. ARNETT. From where you marked "A," I couldn't see from there. You -are talking about this "A" here [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about this "A" here at the bottom of the -ramp [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes. I could from there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you glance up from time to time? - -Mr. ARNETT. I won't say I did, because I don't remember whether I did -or didn't. More than likely I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now; did you glance back at the TV cameras from time to -time? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say I did; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after this second car moved out, did you have -occasion to glance over at the TV cameras at any time, toward the TV -cameras at any time? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say, just right offhand, I would say I looked -around, but as far as just watching the TV cameras, I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you observe what any other officers were doing in -your area on that side of the ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. There was a man to the side of me, to my right, that was in -civilian clothes, and was a news reporter that had a microphone in his -hand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he to your right or was he in front of you? - -Mr. ARNETT. He was to my right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Directly to your right. Now, where was Officer Harrison? - -Mr. ARNETT. Right in front of me and a little to my left. In other -words, we were standing facing this direction and Officer Harrison -was more or less like this. I was looking over his right shoulder -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were looking over his right shoulder. Were you pressed -right up against him at the time Lee Oswald moved out? - -Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't say I was pressed against him. I was -directly--you know, next to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody behind you? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to state for the record that we have here a -Mr. Robert Davis with the attorney general's office with the State of -Texas, who has been sitting in on these hearings, and he just walked -into the room, and I am holding up, at about the same distance that -I held this thing from Captain Arnett--is that right, Captain Arnett -[indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am holding this about the same distance from Mr. Davis, -and I am asking him if he sees any colored items on the back of this -Dictaphone card that I am holding up [indicating]? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many colored things do you see? - -Mr. DAVIS. Six. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He has got better---- - -Mr. DAVIS. Five dots and a colored arrow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as this arrow was concerned, how would you -describe that arrow; can you see the stem on the arrow? - -Mr. DAVIS. See what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Stem on the arrow. - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; it's fat, kind of heavy, bulky stem on the arrow. Looks -more like a house turned on its side than its does an arrow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got 20-20 vision? - -Mr. DAVIS. (Nods head.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't wear glasses? - -Mr. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The record should reflect he did a better job than you. - -Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett: I am going to ask you to step to -the back of the room over there. - -Mr. ARNETT. Back where? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Step over to the doorway there. - -Mr. ARNETT. Okay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, take your glasses off. You didn't have them on. I am -going to hold up a card here, and can you see the colors on that card? - -Mr. ARNETT. I see green and white [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. See any other colors [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. There is a little lighter up at the top of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell me whether you see any objects on there or -whether you see a circle or a band or something exact or what do you -see on there [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, to that end I see something light running up and -down, in the upper part of it, just a portion of it is a lighter--kind -of a blue color. Then it's a green, then down closer to your thumb it's -white [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me state for the record that what I held up was -a Mobil gas credit card, which has in the top half of it a band that -has a blue background on it, and against that blue background there is -a picture of a Mobil gas station, which is white, and some background -scenery which runs behind the Mobil station in some sort of a band, -which is green, looks like grass and trees, and just above the blue -field there is a completely white area, and in that white area there is -written the word credit card, and there is a Mobil gas seal. - -I think that is a fair description of what's on this card [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are now seated close enough to me now that you can -see it with your glasses on [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Davis, do you think that is a fair description of it? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think that is a fair description of it. - -Mr. ARNETT. Do you think I got anywhere close to it? - -Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand there was nobody standing behind you? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to your left? - -Mr. ARNETT. To my left? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; as you faced the direction that Lee Oswald was coming -from? - -Mr. ARNETT. There was another reporter with a pencil and pad to my -left. Then I said Captain King and another man beyond him that I don't -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were these people in the same line that Blackie -Harrison was in? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. They were in the line with me. Blackie Harrison -was in front of me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Captain -Arnett, 3-25-64," and this is Exhibit 5034, and I am going to start -another one here. - -All right. Now, Captain, I want you to put an "A" on this copy of the -map where you were standing, put an "A" where you were standing when -Oswald came out [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Okay. Now, this is the brick building here. Now, I want to -be sure that I am looking at this right [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Okay. There was a news reporter [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, put an "A" where you were standing. - -Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, put an H in the circle around it where -Blackie Harrison was standing. - -Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the other officer that you said was to your -left? - -Mr. ARNETT. A news reporter and Captain King, and I don't know where -this other one was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "K" where Captain King was standing, and put an "X" -where that newspaper reporter was. - -Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody between Captain King and the -railing? - -Mr. ARNETT. There was one person, but I couldn't tell you whether he -was in civilian clothes or who they were or anything about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put a question mark there. All right. You put a -question there. - -Mr. ARNETT. Got it wrong, didn't I? [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have changed it. You put a dot to your right where -there was a newsman? - -Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the man that had the microphone? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody in front of that man? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes. They were lined up down this wall here. I don't know -whether there was anybody standing directly in front of him. I wouldn't -say [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to Blackie Harrison's left? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to remember these people that you put on -the chart here? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, standing there with them, well---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see photographs, did you see movies of this after -Oswald was shot? - -Mr. ARNETT. I have seen them; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see---- - -Mr. ARNETT. That didn't have any bearing on that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to see yourself in those movies? - -Mr. ARNETT. I am in some magazines. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to see yourself in the magazines? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, Sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that how you were able to distinguish---- - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Those people? - -Mr. ARNETT. Huh, uh. This letter that was written the 27th was before I -ever saw any films or magazines, either one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do the magazine shots which you have seen, in which -you have seen yourself, do they show the man to your left, who you -thought was a newsman? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show Captain King? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How is it that just you come through on these magazine -shots? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know how they come through, but the Dallas -Morning News and the Times Herald that had the big complete picture, -all the front page was completely covered, I am not in it. Now, this -newsman that was on my right, it shows the microphone but it doesn't -show me at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What magazine did you see yourself in? - -Mr. ARNETT. Four Dark Days in History, Four Days, Kennedy From -Childhood to--I don't remember just exactly what it did say on that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you happen to remember in Four Dark Days, what page -your picture was on? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. But if you got one I can show it to you, but it's -not before the shooting, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, this is the shot that's taken after the shooting? - -Mr. ARNETT. Shows me scuffling with---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you haven't seen a picture of yourself standing there -in that line, have you? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where did you see that picture? - -Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Four Days you saw that? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. And it didn't show anybody standing beside me, -either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show Blackie Harrison in that picture? - -Mr. ARNETT. I believe it does. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, there is only one picture of you in Four Days? - -Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. No. There is three. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Three pictures of you? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they all on the same page? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember for sure whether they are on the same page -or not, but they are in the same connection. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They are all in connection with the shooting? - -Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to tell you what they are? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. One of them shows me standing like I told you. The next one -shows me in the scuffle with Jack Ruby from here up, doesn't show any -other part (indicating). - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just shows the top of your head? - -Mr. ARNETT. From right here up. The next one shows the top of my -cap, from my back, following Oswald out to the ambulance. That's it -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. There is only one that shows you standing there? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's the only one I have seen. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show anything but your face? - -Mr. ARNETT. From about right here up [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About the middle of your chest up? - -Mr. ARNETT. Something like that. One in Four Days in History shows me -standing looking down like this, and L. C. Graves is wrestling with the -gun, before I took hold of Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see Ruby move forward out of the -crowd? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not out of the crowd. He was in front of me before I saw -him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him move in front of you? - -Mr. ARNETT. I can give you an illustration better than I can tell you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Illustrate. - -Mr. ARNETT. Okay. I was standing like this, facing this way -(indicating). - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's put Mr. Davis up in front of you, -about where Blackie Harrison was. - -Mr. ARNETT. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You place him up there. And Oswald is going to be to your -right. - -Mr. ARNETT. I was looking over his shoulder [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. ARNETT. The first thing---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about that far away from him [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about 4 inches away from Blackie Harrison? - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And looking over his right shoulder? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Lee Oswald came out----[indicating]---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking to your right? - -Mr. ARNETT. To my right. Lee Oswald came out, the two detectives, -Leavelle and Graves, Leavelle was handcuffed to Oswald. Graves was on -the left side of him, had him by the arm. The first time I saw Jack -Ruby he was just about in this position, just pow, that's just how -quick it happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you get back there in the position where you first -saw Jack. - -Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. You get where you saw Jack [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that about how far Jack was from---- - -Mr. ARNETT. From Oswald when I saw him, I guess [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that how far he was from Harrison? - -Mr. ARNETT. He might have been a little further out this way from him, -but (indicating). - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the first time you saw Ruby, Ruby was -standing forward, he was standing between--in front of Harrison in the -direction of the Commerce Street ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was off to Harrison's left? - -Mr. ARNETT. He was to Harrison's left a little bit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction was Ruby facing when you saw him? - -Mr. ARNETT. Just as you and I [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Facing almost directly at Oswald? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point? - -Mr. ARNETT. In this position [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody standing behind his back? - -Mr. ARNETT. Did I see anybody behind Ruby's back? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who would have been directly--as you are -standing, directly toward Ruby's right, which would be up the Main -Street ramp, who would have been standing right in that position along -the row that you were in, directly to Ruby's right, toward the Main -Street ramp [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I named this newsman with a pad, I mean, I said--I -didn't know his name. I said he was to my right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes; left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, that man was to your left. Was Ruby right -in front of him or was he right in front of Captain King? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, he was just to the left of Blackie Harrison. Now, -whether he was out in front in this manner right in front of King, I -wouldn't say for certain [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether Ruby was a different man -from the man you saw next to you holding the pad? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, yes; I would say he was a different man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you able to state that? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't believe the newsman was dressed like Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that newsman again? - -Mr. ARNETT. Did I see him again; is that the question? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. After the shooting? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say whether I did or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe the dress of that newsman; did he -have on a hat? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he wear glasses? - -Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a suit on? - -Mr. ARNETT. I thought he had a kind of raincoat, jacket on, something -of that type. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you see that man around before Oswald was -shot? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I had been in this position, I said 15 minutes, and -so far as I know Blackie Harrison had been standing in front of me all -that time, and this man beside me, I believe, had been there all this -time. I believe they had all been there all this time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about 1 minute before Oswald was shot there was a car -that drove up and split the lines up? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. I don't know whether it was 1 minute. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But shortly before? - -Mr. ARNETT. Shortly before there was; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man standing over next to you before the car went -up the ramp; was that man in the raincoat next to you before the car -went up the ramp? - -Mr. ARNETT. I believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think I remember him being there with me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Captain King about this man? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain in the police building after -the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. ARNETT. After the shooting? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Whenever he shot Oswald, I made a dive for him, and L. C. -Graves, the detective, had him, and he had him like this, had the gun -like this, and they were scuffling. I got him by the leg. I don't know -what leg I got him by, but I got him by the leg, and I would say there -were seven or eight of us had ahold of him. We carried him back into -the jail office, and while we had him down, handcuffed, he said, "I am -Jack Ruby. All of you know me." They had him handcuffed by that time. -I turned him loose and walked back over here where Oswald was laying -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this: how long were you in -the building the rest of the day? - -Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went home about 1:30. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, by the time you went home had you heard any rumors -about how Ruby got down into that basement? - -Mr. ARNETT. That day? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. I have heard rumors since then, but I -didn't that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Davis has left the room, -and I hope the record reflects that we had a short break, a very short -break, about 2 minutes, and we are back and ready to go. Would you read -the last part back? - -(The record was here read by the reporter.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex., -Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5035, and I am going to hand this to -you. I am going to ask you, Captain Arnett, if what I am showing you is -the dictaphone belt case with the red arrow on it that you identified -earlier in the testimony [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to initial it [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the side which I have got the identification on -the side that I showed you? - -Mr. ARNETT. It was up like this. Yes [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the side [indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you sign that? - -Mr. ARNETT. Just sign it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I am also going to mark for -identification, Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5036. - -Now, this is the diagram of the basement on which you placed markings -indicating where you and Harrison and King and the reporter were -standing, [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just before Oswald came out? - -Mr. ARNETT. [Nods head.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald came out, did you see a man right -next to Blackie Harrison's left? - -Mr. ARNETT. To his left? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. As he would face up Commerce Street? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As Blackie would face Commerce Street, did you see a man -to his left? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well now, there were men out, you know, on the camera and -stuff, to his left, if that's what you are talking about. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody standing to his left, other than men -manning the cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say for certain that I did, because he may -have been the last one in that row, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he was in the front row, wasn't he; Blackie? - -Mr. ARNETT. He was in front of me; yes. And I would say he was in the -front row, but---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a solid line of people between Blackie and the -TV cameras, in the row that Blackie was standing in? - -Mr. ARNETT. It seems to me like there was somebody by the side of -Blackie, but I am not going to say that there were because the first -time I saw Jack Ruby he was to his left, coming up. Now, whether there -was somebody right beside of Blackie Harrison, I am not going to say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time you saw Jack he was sort of hunched over -with the gun? - -Mr. ARNETT. He was hunched over. He was in this position, and whenever -he shot him he went down like that [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby when he was moving toward Oswald? - -Mr. ARNETT. I saw him moving from where I told you, up to Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby standing still? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was a solid line of -people or how that line of people was from Blackie Harrison on to the -TV cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, like I said, I think there was somebody the other -side of him, but I am not going to be certain about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were there any other police officers up in the same -row that Blackie Harrison was in? - -Mr. ARNETT. They were people lined up all the way up the wall and on -this wall over here, they were lined all the way up to the edge of it -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett, did you receive -instructions before Oswald came out as to where these newspaper people -were to stand? - -Mr. ARNETT. Where the newspaper--no; I did not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when some men convened around Officer -Jones, Captain Jones, prior to Oswald's coming down, when Jones gave -some instructions? - -Mr. ARNETT. Sergeant Jones? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Captain Jones. - -Mr. ARNETT. Captain Jones. I remember seeing Captain Jones there, but I -don't remember any group being around him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you have any instructions to the effect that you -were not to permit newspaper people to be over here on the Main Street -side? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I did not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any instructions that you were to try to keep -these newspaper people over toward the entrance of the garage? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what instructions did you have as to what you were -to do there? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, the main instructions I had was to--when we was -placing these men around, searching the building, see that there was -nobody in there at all, other than was supposed to be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But that was an hour before? - -Mr. ARNETT. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you knew Oswald was going to come out that -door from the jail, jail office? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have some idea that you were supposed to keep -the area free? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, wasn't supposed to let anybody in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if newspaper people had crowded up in front of him, -did you have any instructions as to what you were to do? - -Mr. ARNETT. I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know if any of the other people had -instructions like that? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you write the report that has been marked as -Exhibit 5033? - -Mr. ARNETT. When did I write it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. ARNETT. That one was--let me see, now. That happened on Sunday, I -went to Tippit's funeral on Monday, I went to Corpus Christi on Monday -night, I was in Corpus on Tuesday. I believe I wrote that on Wednesday -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Now, Sunday was the 24th---- - -Mr. ARNETT. Monday would have been the 25th, Tuesday the 26th, be the -27th. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you indicate on here, would you put -composed November 27, and initial that [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. How do you spell composed? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] C-o-m-p-o-s-e-d. - -Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] C-o-m-p---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling]--o-s-e-d. - -Mr. ARNETT. November 27? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, in between this time, in between the -time that you left the police building on the 24th and the time you -prepared this statement, did you talk with any of the members of the -police department about the events? - -Mr. ARNETT. You mean how it was--how they were set up or something? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Any conversations--did you talk with any of the police -officers? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well now, on Monday, after this on Sunday, I was down -there and called some men to meet me out at the Baptist Church on -Beckley, to work traffic for the Tippit funeral. I talked to Lieutenant -Pierce. He asked me if I would get some reserves out there to help, -that they was going to need some, and I said I will call and get some -and go out there myself, and I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Pierce about the things that had -happened on November 24? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of now. Not that I remember about. We were -talking about this one particular area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever talk with Pierce at that time, prior to -the time you wrote this statement, did you ever talk with Pierce about -how Ruby got into the basement? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I did prior to that letter or not. I -have heard since then that when Lieutenant Pierce drove out, that the -officers stepped out to stop the traffic and that Jack Ruby said that's -when he walked in. Now, when I heard that I couldn't say, the date, but -I don't know, but I have heard that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you prepared the statement, did you talk with any -of the reserves or any members of the police department, about how Ruby -might have got down in the basement? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems that maybe some people would say, well, he -must have come in with a camera or something, you know, like that. As -far as just individuals talking to anybody about it, I don't remember, -you know, just particularly talking about that one thing of how he got -in there. But I am confident that he wasn't in there. I am confident -of that, as I am that Jack Ruby shot Oswald, and I saw that. I may be -wrong about it, but now, that's just the way I feel about it, that he -wasn't in that basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you think he was? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know where he was. But as far as him being in -there any length of time, I just don't believe he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have seen him if he came across the railing? - -Mr. ARNETT. Would I have seen him? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like I would have, but I don't know that I -would have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think you would have? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, you know, if you are just looking off, like this, and -something happens over here in 10 or 12 feet of you, you will almost---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't your attention focused almost all the time--after -Pierce's car went up the ramp, wasn't your attention focused towards -the jail office? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say yes, most of the time, but you can just -let anything--you can be driving down the road and a bird or something -fly by, you will get a glance of it, and I believe if he had come over -that rail I would have got the glance off of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see things happening over by that railing? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say that you could or you couldn't, -but I believe if he had come over that railing, I believe I would have -saw him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, if he had come over the railing behind the line -that you were standing in you wouldn't have seen him, would you? - -Mr. ARNETT. No. Sure wouldn't have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you were drawing a straight line across -your shoulders--well, let's not do it that way. You have got this -thing marked on the map here where the A is and where I placed the TV -cameras. If you were drawing a straight line across the Main Street -ramp, where would that line--how far would that line have come from the -TV cameras that I have placed here [indicating]? - -Mr. ARNETT. How far would it come? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In other words, how far up the [indicating]---- - -Mr. ARNETT. I would say a straight line behind the cameras would have -been about like Mr. Davis from me [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am asking you here, I am asking you to tell me -about how far up the Main Street ramp you were standing from the TV -cameras; would you say that the TV cameras and you were the same -distance up the Main Street ramp or they were a little bit in front of -you? - -Mr. ARNETT. They were a little in front of me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much; by a little bit, would you say? - -Mr. ARNETT. Well, 5 feet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 5 feet in front of you. Could they have been less -than 5 feet? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe they would have been. They could have. I am -just roughly guessing now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there people congregated around those TV -cameras, in front of those TV cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. In front of it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any of them being in front of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about along the sides of the TV cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, there was a man at each one of the -cameras, operating it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But there weren't other people crowded down around them? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not that I remember; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, wouldn't Captain King and that newspaperman have -blocked your side vision over in the direction of the TV cameras? - -Mr. ARNETT. It could have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had walked down that Main Street ramp would -you have seen him? - -Mr. ARNETT. Not without turning around and looking back, I wouldn't -have; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to turn back and look around -after Rio Pierce's car went up? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean you don't remember or---- - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember looking around, no sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody suggest to you before you wrote this statement -that you should have seen Ruby in there? - -Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody ask you if you did see Ruby in there before -you wrote this statement? - -Mr. ARNETT. Other than I just said, I saw him just like I have told you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who asked you to write this statement? - -Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon ever ask you before you wrote the -statement whether you saw Ruby in there? - -Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall that he did. But I told him just like I told -you, the first time I saw him, where he was, the position he was, so -there would be no cause for him to ask me that, because I am telling -you the truth about where he was when I saw him. He was too close. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you feel---- - -Mr. ARNETT. Whenever I had ahold of him, I felt like there could be -some more shots fired. I believe you would have felt the same way, -because I wasn't figuring on that first one being fired. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am going to ask you to sign all these things -[indicating]. - -Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you to sign them, and I assume that when you sign -them you are indicating that you think they are accurate and wouldn't -make any changes to them? - -Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. I have tried to tell you just as near the truth -as I can. Just sign it or---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just sign it and put the date. Now, will you sign that one -and this one here [indicating]? - -Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I interviewed you before the beginning of this -deposition? - -Mr. ARNETT. Before tonight? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Has any other member of the staff interviewed you before I -took your deposition? - -Mr. ARNETT. The only one that interviewed me was the FBI men, came to -my home, one of them was from Memphis, Tenn., and I don't know where -the other one came from. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't have to ask you this, but we say it for the record -anyhow. If anything should come to your attention which you think would -be helpful to us or which you find maybe you want to make a correction -in anything that you have told us, will you come to us and---- - -Mr. ARNETT. Absolutely. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And advise us? - -Mr. ARNETT. I am for you 100 percent. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I certainly appreciate your assistance. That's all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BUFORD LEE BEATY - -The testimony of Buford Lee Beaty was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For the record, I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of -the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. - -This Commission has been appointed pursuant to Executive Order of -President Johnson issued on November 29, 1963, and pursuant to a joint -resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Under the provisions of the Resolution and Executive order, the -Commission has authority to establish rules and procedure which they -have done, and pursuant to those rules and procedures I have been -designated to come here to Dallas to take your sworn deposition. - -You are appearing here by virtue of a letter which was sent from the -general counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry. - -Actually, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice. However, -under the rules of the Commission, if you want to, you can waive the -notice, and we can go forward without the actual letter, I will ask you -a little later whether you want a letter, or waive it. - -The scope of this investigation is that we are directed to investigate -and evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts that -surround the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent -murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Our particular concern in calling you is in connection with the death -of Lee Oswald, although I am going to ask you some questions that -will develop a little background that people who are working on the -assassination of the President can use to decide whether you were in -a position to provide some physical action that something might have -happened in which they are particularly concerned about and as to which -they need more witnesses. - -But our primary concern in talking to you is to find out the matters -which might be relevant to Ruby, although we are interested in anything -else that you might know of your own knowledge that is valuable to the -Commission. - -Let me ask you first of all, would you like us to get you a written -letter. - -Mr. BEATY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He is shaking his head no. I might say, she has to take -your answer down. - -Mr. BEATY. I am sorry; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, also, you are entitled to an attorney. - -Mr. BEATY. What do I need an attorney for? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people come with attorneys. I don't want you -to feel that maybe if you come with an attorney that you are prejudiced. - -Mr. BEATY. I don't need an attorney, I don't think. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to -tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. BEATY. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your name for the record? - -Mr. BEATY. Buford Lee Beaty. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Beaty? - -Mr. BEATY. 404 Freeman, Garland. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born? - -Mr. BEATY. July 10, 1924. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? - -Mr. BEATY. Police department, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been so employed? - -Mr. BEATY. Fifteen and a half years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department? - -Mr. BEATY. Narcotics. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been there? - -Mr. BEATY. Altogether, about 4 years. This last time, about 6 months, -something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the earlier period that you were with the -narcotics bureau? - -Mr. BEATY. From 1957 to 1960. And then I came back this time in June. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now from 1960 until you came back, what bureau? - -Mr. BEATY. Burglary and theft. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold a particular rank? - -Mr. BEATY. Detective; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ruby announced that you would recognize -him? - -Mr. BEATY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you happened to first become -familiar with Mr. Ruby? - -Mr. BEATY. When I first met him? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. BEATY. Well, I wrote him a traffic ticket one time about 1951, or -something like that. But I knew of him before then. - -He had a joint down on South Ervay, and he was always calling the -police to pick up drunks and one thing and another. Everybody knows -Jack Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was the Silver Spur? - -Mr. BEATY. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with your duties in the narcotics -bureau, did you ever have occasion to talk with him or conduct any -investigation in connection with him? - -Mr. BEATY. About narcotics specifically? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, in connection with any of your duties, investigating -duties with the police department, as opposed to traffic tickets? Let -me ask you that question generally. - -Mr. BEATY. Not that I ever recall. I can't think of anything -specifically at all where I could say I had occasion to interrogate him -about anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is, was Jack Ruby ever treated by -you as a person whom you might go to if you needed to find out about -somebody? - -Mr. BEATY. A confidant? No, sir; absolutely not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether other people you worked with in the -narcotics bureau might have attempted to use him? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with any narcotics investigation that -ever took place with respect to Jack Ruby? - -Mr. BEATY. None. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how often would you say that you saw Ruby during the -last 3 years? - -Mr. BEATY. Possibly, four, maybe five times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the occasions for seeing Jack? - -Mr. BEATY. Well, I saw him one time. I was working late nights and I -saw him walking his dog after his joint closed down on Commerce Street, -and I run into him on the street, and I go by his joint. You don't say -hello and look around. You say hello. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever stop in and visit you while you were in your -office at the police department? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; that was the last time I saw him before the shooting. -He came by--didn't particularly come to see me, but he just came to the -office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall about when that was? - -Mr. BEATY. No; it seemed like it was about a month before all this -happened, something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak to anybody in the narcotics office? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked to myself, and I believe Lieutenant Cornwall -was in and out of the office, and Dan Asabell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you all talked with Jack about? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked about a girl. He had a stripper down there. -Let me think if I remember what her name was. Jada from New Orleans. - -The whole thing was how he thought Jada was just a little indecent -about her act and he would have to turn the lights off every once in -a while and tell her to clean it up a little bit, and one thing and -another. And how they went through a little "Hazel" in Judge Richburg's -court over all this. It was all in the papers, the whole story was and -that is about the gist of what we talked about. And Jada testified at -the previous thing. - -The bureau I work in, the special bureau, also handles all the -dancehall licenses and the liquor licenses and it could be that, I -don't believe he made a special trip to our office, I think he came to -the bureau and might have had a little business for a liquor license, -or something, I don't know. I didn't ask him about it at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the narcotics bureau, is that correct to call -it a bureau? - -Mr. BEATY. Section. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Narcotics section is a subdivision of the special service -bureau, is that correct? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Within the special service bureau, there is a department -which handles dancehall policemen? - -Mr. BEATY. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does everybody who is a part of the special service -bureau occupy the same suite of offices? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the narcotics bureau occupy the same suite of offices -as the dancehall bureau? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What other people occupy the same suite of offices? - -Mr. BEATY. Vice squad. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, Detective Beaty, that you were on duty on -November 22, the day the President was shot? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; I was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were when you first heard he had -been shot? - -Mr. BEATY. Trade Mart. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from the Trade Mart? - -Mr. BEATY. Went back to our office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? - -Mr. BEATY. I think until about 9 o'clock that night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty on the 23d? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the police department all day on the 23d? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. What day was the 23d? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Saturday. - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to Friday, did you see Jack Ruby -in the hallway at all on Friday, or any place in the police department? - -Mr. BEATY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby any time on -Saturday? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you left the police -department on Saturday? - -Mr. BEATY. Worked a lot of overtime. I am trying to remember. It was -probably 6:30 or 7 o'clock that night; Saturday night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall whether when you left the police -department that night you had heard any rumors or had received any kind -of information that would indicate that Oswald was going to be moved -from the city jail to the county jail on Saturday? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Sunday a regular day for you to report to duty? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for duty? - -Mr. BEATY. Eight o'clock that morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car that morning? - -Mr. BEATY. In the basement, I believe. No; that is not right. It is -Sunday you are talking about now? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you to save my life. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime on Sunday did you ever have occasion to come in -the Commerce Street, come down the steps from Commerce Street and walk -down the hallway in the basement that leads to the records room? - -Mr. BEATY. The pedestrian entrance to the city hall basement? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. BEATY. I don't remember that either. If I park my car on Commerce -Street around there somewhere, I probably did. If I parked it on Main, -I probably took that other entrance, but I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don't remember, that is all right. - -Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you report up to the -narcotics bureau? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on the third floor? - -Mr. BEATY. No; on the second floor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the narcotics bureau? - -Mr. BEATY. Until about 9:15 or something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do at 9:15? - -Mr. BEATY. Everyone decided we wanted to get some coffee, and as we got -off the elevator in the basement, I noticed all the newspaper people -standing out there and a couple of reserve officers and a policeman, -I think, whose name was Nelson. I didn't know him at the time. He was -guarding the entrance. And just curiosity made me, instead of going to -get coffee, stay around to see what was going on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the people that you were going to go to coffee with -in the narcotics bureau? - -Mr. BEATY. No; vice and narcotics, and some administrative section. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any people from the third floor? - -Mr. BEATY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where they went after coffee? - -Mr. BEATY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go out of the building? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; out of the building. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me what happened when you saw this fellow -Nielson. - -Mr. BEATY. Right away, nothing. I mean I just happened to glance over -here and here's two officers, and nothing happened. I just kind of -lingered behind and I didn't care for coffee anyway, and I told them -I would wait for them, and I kind of figured they would maybe move -Oswald, and I just wanted to see him and that is what it amounted to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--you expected that Oswald would be moved fairly -soon? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you received some word before that? - -Mr. BEATY. Everybody in the world, at 10 o'clock. They said in the -newspaper and radio. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By this time when the boys in your group went out for -coffee, had there been any instructions to standby? - -Mr. BEATY. None. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later receive some instructions to standby to help -in the Oswald move? - -Mr. BEATY. As Capt. O. A. Jones got off the elevator, and as he walked -by, he said, "Come here, I want to talk to you." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this take place in the basement? - -Mr. BEATY. Right by the elevator door to the basement. He said there -will be some officers come down from the third floor, and told me to -wait for them right here, and he indicated close by the entrance to the -jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Detective Beaty, what is your best estimate of -how long this encounter with Jones was before Oswald actually came -downstairs? - -Mr. BEATY. What time did he get shot? It was about probably 30 minutes -before he actually came down and Ruby shot him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the important thing. I would rather have you fix -it in terms of that time rather than some specific time. - -Mr. BEATY. Around 30 minutes or something like this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Because I noticed in the interview which you gave to -the FBI, you indicated that this was about 10 o'clock that you saw -Jones. Did you have any idea at the time when you gave this interview -to Agents Dallman and Quigley--that was on December 3--did you have -anything specific in mind when you told them that it was 10 o'clock. - -Mr. BEATY. I just was trying to remember when Captain Jones told me -to remain there. No; I was just trying to remember about the lapse of -time, it seemed to me like. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to look over this with me. Let me point -out, you indicated here that you thought Oswald came down about 11:30? - -Mr. BEATY. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they have reported that you told them that it was 10 -o'clock. Now it may be that that was that time it could be a mistake on -their part writing it down? - -Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. - -Mr. BEATY. Boy, it is hard to remember, but it seems to me like he -breezed through in just probably about 30 minutes--could possibly be -longer--after Mr. Jones told me this. I waited around for probably -another 4 or 5 minutes and the elevator doors opened up, and here all -the officers from the third floor, and we moved from there out into the -middle hallway. And they describe it here as a, whatever, I don't know, -right outside the jail office door, the little hall where they brought -him out of the jail office door there, and we remained there for about -30 minutes. And if the shooting actually occurred around 11:30, I have -made an error about the original time Captain Jones said that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take my pen and on this statement would -you want to put a circle around the 10 o'clock and make some note out -on the side that what you meant was 30 minutes before the shooting, or -whatever you think was the accurate time? - -Mr. BEATY. Gosh, I don't remember. I just can't remember to save my -life what time it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How is your memory as to the fact that it was about 30 -minutes before the shooting? - -Mr. BEATY. Thirty minutes, may be an hour. That times passes so fast -along in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it could have been longer than an hour? - -Mr. BEATY. I don't think so; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be fair to say, and I want you to be very frank -about this, because I don't want to change this in any way that isn't -fair, would it be fair to change this time 10 a.m., to read---- - -Mr. BEATY. That it was 10 or 10:30, would that be all right, because I -don't remember? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To read a half hour or--to an hour before Oswald was shot? - -Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't carry a watch so I never know what time it is -unless I ask somebody and it would be a matter of kind of remembering, -and if you want to say 10 or 10:30, that would be about the same time, -wouldn't it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be just fair to say, "I am not certain about the -exact time?" - -Mr. BEATY. That would be fine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wish you would do this in your own handwriting and write -in there, "I am not certain about the time." - -Mr. BEATY. [Makes statement and initials.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a date after your initials. - -Mr. BEATY. 3-26-64. I don't even remember what month. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, do you recall any of the people who came -down in the contingent with Captain Jones? - -Mr. BEATY. They are listed on the back of that, the best I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have listed on page 32, of what we have labeled -Commission Document 85 (Beaty Exhibit 5040), the names of about a dozen -police officers. Did you see all these people come down together, or -these people that you remember as having been in the basement? - -Mr. BEATY. They came--let me read them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read them for the record. B. H. Combest. J. H. -Hutchinson. - -Mr. BEATY. Those two, boy, they are supposed both special service -officers, too, and I don't know how in the world they could have -received word unless they called and told them to come down, because -they were the only ones from the special service bureau down there with -me at the time. I can't remember them getting off the elevator at the -time, but Captain Martin---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read them. W. J. Harrison. - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; I remember him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. James Watson. - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. L. D. Miller. - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. R. L. Lowery. - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; he was on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. J. Charles Goolsby? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Chambers. - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Frank Martin. - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant W. Wiggins? - -Mr. BEATY. No; he wasn't. He was a jail supervisor. He was already down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. R. C. Wagner? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the complete list. - -Mr. BEATY. They must have been on two elevators. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have these men that you saw come down, Harrison, -Cutchshaw, Watson, Miller, Lowery, Goolsby, Chambers, and Martin, were -all those people attached to the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. BEATY. No; Chambers is forgery. Goolsby is juvenile. Lowery is -juvenile. Wagner, I believe, is forgery. Watson is auto theft. Harrison -is juvenile. I don't know where Miller works. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Cutchshaw? - -Mr. BEATY. Cutchshaw is juvenile. Hutchinson and Combest are both -special services. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But Wagner was not in the elevator? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; he was with them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He came down in the elevator? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; Wiggins wasn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiggins wasn't in the elevator. Now, when these men got -off the elevator, what did they do? Where did they go? - -Mr. BEATY. Walked straight out there in front of the elevator to the -windows by--are you familiar with that place down there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. BEATY. What I call it, where you go through that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Might as well call it the window in front of the jail -office, if that is where it was. - -Mr. BEATY. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to sketch a diagram of the basement. Did they -go through the swinging doors? - -Mr. BEATY. We waited right about here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating just about at the first window of the -jail office as you come from the elevator? - -Mr. BEATY. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The elevator we are talking about is the general elevator -that services all floors and is available to anybody that comes into -the building? - -Mr. BEATY. We are not talking about the jail elevator? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right. - -Mr. BEATY. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you all congregated outside that window, what -took place? - -Mr. BEATY. Within 5 or 10 minutes, Captain Jones came through and spoke -to me, and we walked through the small hall by the jail office window -into the double doors and he instructed us to stand on either side of -that hallway, which would be just outside the double doors as you enter -into the basement parking area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mr. Beaty, I am going to hand you my pen. I am -going to ask you if you will mark on this diagram where was your -understanding that people were to place themselves. - -Mr. BEATY. Where they were assigned? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what assignments did Jones make at that point? - -Mr. BEATY. He said, "Divide yourself up about half and half. Half on -this side and half on this side." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have drawn a line on either side, straight line -on either side of the hallway that leads out between the swinging doors -and the Main Street and Commerce Street ramp. - -Mr. BEATY. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell officers to stand any place except along those -two walls where you have drawn the line? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. He instructed us to, when they brought Oswald out -of the smaller swinging door in the outside hall, to make a path for -him and be sure that nobody got to him or slowed him down. In other -words, indicating that--I don't remember whether he said to get to him -or not. He just said keep the people back so we can get him through, -something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: What was your understanding that you -people were to do, if anything, when Oswald got abreast of you? - -Mr. BEATY. To keep the people back. Of course, over here where I was, -there was nobody behind me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place on the chart where it was you were -stationed? Put an "X" there. - -Mr. BEATY. [Complies.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you again. As Oswald moved out of the jail -office and approached the car that he was to get in, did you have any -understanding as to any action that you were supposed to take? - -Mr. BEATY. Like I said before, of course, there was nobody at that -time, we thought, but the press and police officers down there, and -at that time we were, television cameras were set up across the ramp -behind a railing about 4 foot tall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you place the TV cameras? - -Mr. BEATY. Somewhere right there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to put the TV cameras in a square. - -Mr. BEATY. [Complies.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there only two TV cameras in the basement? - -Mr. BEATY. The best I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there was a TV camera in the garage -entranceway to the garage? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I sure don't. There were so many of them, and guys -had them on their shoulders, and little tape recorders, and one thing -all over the joint. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am talking only about TV cameras, the big things -that set on a tripod as opposed to little movie cameras. - -Mr. BEATY. They had some of the shoulder cameras. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wasn't thinking of them. I am just talking about the -stationary cameras. - -Mr. BEATY. I suppose I didn't pay any attention to them at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am only talking now about the instructions that you -remember that came from Captain Jones. Do you have any idea as to what -you were to do when Oswald got abreast of you? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. He told us we would keep this aisle clear, and at -this time the cameras were run in and out of this door and something -through this door, and around here, and then he returned in about 3 or -4 minutes later and said, "All you people from the press move back into -the driveway." And I will indicate it by a dotted line across here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. - -Mr. BEATY. And over into the driveway entrance of the parking area from -the Commerce Street, Main Street ramp. Would you want a dotted line? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let me ask you a question about that. What is your -best estimate of the number of people that were over in the garage -entrance area? - -Mr. BEATY. Counting the people here behind the camera? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not counting the people behind the camera. - -Mr. BEATY. Right along in here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; along the dotted line. - -Mr. BEATY. Thirty-five or forty. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that congested? - -Mr. BEATY. No; it wasn't. You can get that many people in. It is a -pretty wide area. Looks like it might be 50 feet across there, if this -is 15. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, across that 50-foot area, was there just a single -line across there? - -Mr. BEATY. They could be doubled or tripled. They were all scattered -out, of course. But there seemed like there was some congestion right -around there and behind the cameras. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you draw a half circle in the area or quarter circle -in the area where the congestion was? - -Mr. BEATY. Right along in here, best I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there appear to be people standing behind the TV -cameras? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there people standing up above the TV cameras, if you -recall? - -Mr. BEATY. I don't know what they would stand on. There is nothing for -them to stand on unless they had a box or something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did the congestion in this area that you have -indicated by a half circle which runs from about the position of the -TV camera close to the Main Street side, to about the middle of the -entrance to the garage, how did the congestion in that area compare to -the congestion along the Main Street ramp or across the Main Street -ramp? - -Mr. BEATY. The best I remember, most of the people that moved out of -this area moved into this area here. Then they moved over here. It -looked like there might have been as many here, or more, as there were -over here. There must have been a hundred all together all scattered -out all in the basement, and they wouldn't stay still. They would mill -around as long as they didn't get past this line here, and we weren't -too concerned with them, because they had uniform officers out here in -the basement and they brought those down earlier and shook down all the -cars a time or two, and I don't know what was going on out here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many uniformed officers did you see stationed -back here in the basement area? - -Mr. BEATY. Earlier? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at the time Oswald came out. - -Mr. BEATY. I didn't see any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that there might not have been officers -there? - -Mr. BEATY. No; there were some earlier, about 50. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About 50 in there? Did you see them search the basement? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they search the basement, can you remember, before or -after you got the instructions from Captain Jones? - -Mr. BEATY. I couldn't remember. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you down in the basement? - -Mr. BEATY. What do you call the basement now, this or this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about the whole bottom area, all the way from -the elevators that come down from the upstairs. - -Mr. BEATY. After the instructions, because I wouldn't be out here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you, prior to the time that your friends planned to -go out for coffee, down in the basement at all? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were down in the basement at the time the search -of the basement was conducted? - -Mr. BEATY. This was a good hour and a half or something like that, -later on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The basement was searched substantially after you got down -there? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. And I understand that this was the second time it -happened. - -In other words, well, I heard somebody say we have swept the basement -out twice already and I don't remember who said this. This is to -indicate that they searched the cars. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was in charge of the search that you saw -take place? - -Mr. BEATY. I would assume that since it was uniformed officers, it -would be Captain Talbert, because they were all uniform officers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not Sergeant Dean was in charge -of that search? - -Mr. BEATY. No; Sergeant Dean was there and so was Sergeant Putnam, and -I don't think you could say one was in charge or the other one was in -charge. It was a joint operation. I would say Captain Talbert was in -charge. And, actually, he wasn't down there. He would drop by and leave -a few instructions, some for Dean and some for Putnam and the like. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period that you were down in the basement, did -you see cars going in and out, coming up and down the ramp? - -Mr. BEATY. Saw one leave, it was a squad car, and it left and went this -way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp. Did you see any other cars coming -in the basement? Were officers coming in on routine duty and so forth? - -Mr. BEATY. I am sure there were, but I don't remember whether they -were or not. I know that they closed it from 9 o'clock on, but I can't -remember exactly what time they shut it off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you first walked out in here in front of the -swinging doors toward the ramp, do you recall if the TV lights were on? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir; they weren't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when the armored car came in? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if the TV lights were on at that time? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I am quite sure that they took some picture of it, -but I don't remember whether, and there again which lights are you -talking about? Man, they were everywhere down there. And the armored -car backed down this ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Commerce Street? - -Mr. BEATY. Commerce Street ramp. And there were people with cameras on -the Main Street ramp back over here, back behind this 55-foot entrance -to the garage. They were everywhere. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there some sort of floodlights set up in connection -with the TV cameras? - -Mr. BEATY. I am sure there were. They were awful bright. I don't know -whether they were hooked onto the cameras or something. They brought in -this material, but the best I remember, there was a bunch of them over -in this area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Behind the camera? - -Mr. BEATY. Well, not necessarily. They could have been under or over. -You couldn't hardly tell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that the armored car came down the ramp, -did you see what happened around that armored car? - -Mr. BEATY. Like what now? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anything that happened? - -Mr. BEATY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the armored car come down? - -Mr. BEATY. It took them quite a while to get the armored car down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see it come down? - -Mr. BEATY. Not the whole time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked up toward that armored car, were you able to -see people around that armored car from where you were standing? - -Mr. BEATY. Well, tell me when you are talking about? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime. - -Mr. BEATY. It took it about 5 minutes to back down, because it was too -tight for the ramp, and they didn't get it all the way in there. They -were very, very cautious and careful, and it parked up the ramp, and I -don't remember seeing anybody around. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Chief Batchelor coming down into the -basement and going up to the armored car? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any police officers up in the area of the -armored car? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was an officer--did you -see an officer stationed up at the top of the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I couldn't see that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of the police that were stationed that you -didn't have a straight view of the ramp? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over in this direction over here, -could you see any police officers over in there? The place that I am -indicating is in the direction of the Main Street ramp. Did you see any -police officers? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; some of those officers I mentioned, I don't -remember exactly how they were stationed, which ones. The plainclothes -officers were standing on this side here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us--I am not asking you who you -subsequently learned was over there, but who you actually remember -seeing in that line? - -Mr. BEATY. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. The only reason I could -on this report I made, I remember who all was down there. That I could -remember. And I remember one was on our side, and I assumed the others -were on the other side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you look over here toward the TV cameras---- - -Mr. BEATY. I am not looking over there much. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If, when you did on occasions look over there, could you -see people around the TV cameras? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any trouble distinguishing their faces? - -Mr. BEATY. After the lights were on, you couldn't see nothing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After the lights were on, you couldn't see anything over -there? - -Mr. BEATY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether or not Captain Jones instructed -the men that when Oswald was brought out from the jail office to where -you men were standing, that you were supposed to begin to start walking -alongside of Oswald toward the armored car? - -Mr. BEATY. He told us to keep the path open, and then he changed this -detail here and pushed them all back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If all of the members of the press were along the Main -Street ramp and were over behind, roughly behind the railing, or at -least behind the TV camera in the direction of the garage area, what -function did you people who were stationed along where you have marked -your "X," that wall that you have your "X," and up the Commerce Street -ramp, what function were you people going to have? - -Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You certainly didn't expect that you were going to have -any trouble from newspaper people, because you were all backed up -against the wall, weren't you? - -Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do? - -Mr. BEATY. When? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Ruby shot Oswald. - -Mr. BEATY. When we first, it occurred to me at the time that--you don't -have policemen for 15 years, you don't have to sit down and draw them -a diagram to have them cover somebody, and Captain Jones said make the -way open, and it occurred to me that if we had to move around that -corner, fine. At that time there were people all around here and out in -the driveway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time Captain Jones set you up, there had been -people there? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; there had. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You then displaced news people, is that right? - -Mr. BEATY. No; whenever Captain Jones come back down, and I think he -had Sergeant Putnam or Dean, and he instructed them all to get back -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are pointing to is on the opposite side from -where you were? - -Mr. BEATY. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. - -Mr. BEATY. If you go on with your interview, I can tell you what my -opinion is why we was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I want you to tell me, what your opinion was. - -Mr. BEATY. Well, of course, the people from the press, they brought -Oswald out here, they all, Captain Jones asked them to please don't ask -him no questions, and let's get this over with as fast as we can. Those -are not his exact words, but that is what he meant. So, we all moved -back behind this line, and as they brought Oswald out to just about -the entrance to the Commerce Street and Main Street ramp right along -here---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a circle where Oswald was. - -Mr. BEATY. The three of them were there along here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I have written "Oswald." - -Mr. BEATY. And, by the way, after that they moved these people back, -these officers on the north side of the hallway were moved out into the -ramp area here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. These started to move out? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; they did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the people on your side? - -Mr. BEATY. There was only about four of us over there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You people stayed where you were? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Do you think these people who were on -the ramp side, which you call the north side---- - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; I would call it the north side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What you have called the north side opposite where you -were standing, do you think those people began to move out sort of -instinctively? - -Mr. BEATY. No; they moved out before he got out there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. BEATY. And I am sure that there were some more officers that, I -don't know, that were along here. They had two people stationed out -here, a reserve and a---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "X" where these reserves were. - -Mr. BEATY. To keep these people from coming through here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This was between the swinging doors and the main elevators? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, were there two reserve officers? - -Mr. BEATY. No; they had one reserve and one officer stationed here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, and before they brought Oswald out, there was some -photographers in this area inside the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have placed circles in the jail office where there -were photographers? - -Mr. BEATY. And they were removed by a uniformed officer and asked to -come out here, or out here, or back here, and I recall some of them -went this way and went on out and took their place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of them went toward the garage area and some on the -Main Street ramp? - -Mr. BEATY. Some came back through these double doors, and were standing -along this hallway like they might be going to try to photograph -through the window. I remember one guy had a big shoulder camera and -one at--at one of these windows here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, is it fair to say that one of the functions you people -served in standing along the wall that you were on, was to make sure -that as these photographers cleared out the jail office, they didn't -line up along the wall? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; also, to double check this double door after he went -by, and somebody might have gotten instructions, I don't remember -whether they did or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, detective, after Oswald was shot, did you go into the -jail office? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go upstairs with Ruby? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? After Ruby was -taken upstairs? What did you do? - -Mr. BEATY. Captain Jones said, "Do you have a car out," and I told him, -"Yes, sir." - -He said, "Get about five of these officers," and I don't remember which -one, "and go to Parkland Hospital and help them with security." And -within 5 minutes after he was shot, we were on our way to Parkland. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Sergeant Dean was out there? - -Mr. BEATY. I don't think he was. He might have been. I didn't remember -seeing him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he went in your group? - -Mr. BEATY. No; I am pretty sure of both of the detectives in our group. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. BEATY. Let's see, probably after 2 o'clock, maybe 3 o'clock that -afternoon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were out at Parkland Hospital, did you hear any -rumors about how Ruby got down to the basement? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back to the police department, did you hear -any rumors back there as to how Ruby got into the basement? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after you got back to the police station were -you asked to prepare a report to Chief Curry? Don't look at this. I -want you to do this from your own recollection. - -Mr. BEATY. Probably the next day. I don't even remember. I couldn't -tell you. Somebody said, you got to write a report. But this was the -second or third one. We wrote a little report along as we went to kind -of, each day we have a daily report we turn in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a report at the end of the day? - -Mr. BEATY. I am not sure whether I did that or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do this. After you leave, would you check back -at the police department and find out if you did write a daily report. - -Mr. BEATY. If I did, it would be a special assignment. It wouldn't have -anything to do with the narcotics. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have any details of what you did? - -Mr. BEATY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this map we have been working -with, "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5039." -Now, is this Exhibit 5039 the document that you have been making marks -on during this discussion? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes; it is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would sign that and then date it? - -Mr. BEATY. [Signs and dates.] What is the date, the 26th? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. All right, I am going to mark the interview report -by Agents Dallman and Quigley of the interview with you on December 3, -1963, as "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, 3-26-64----" - -Mr. BEATY. That happened in Garland. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But we are marking it here in Dallas. - -Mr. BEATY. Okay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark what purports to be a copy of a letter -which you prepared to go to Chief Curry, which is dated November 27, -1963, and mark that "Dallas, Texas, Detective Beaty, 3-26-64, Exhibit -5041." I want you to look at 5041 and tell me if you had a chance to -read that over? - -Mr. BEATY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a true and accurate copy of a letter that you sent -to Chief Curry? - -Mr. BEATY. That looks like it might be; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have read over both the interview report, Exhibit -5040, and this letter, Exhibit 5041? Other than the changes you have -already made on Exhibit 5040, and the testimony which you have already -given here today, are there any additions or corrections that you would -want to make in either of these? - -Mr. BEATY. Not that I can remember or think of. I have thought about -it some since it happened to see if I could remember anything that I -didn't tell the FBI agents, and I can't think of a thing. Actually, I -didn't see a whole lot of the actual shooting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that you would want to tell the -Commission that you think would be important to us in connection with -our investigation? - -Mr. BEATY. I don't think of a thing. You have covered it pretty well. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and I have any interview of any sort prior to the -time we took this deposition. - -Mr. BEATY. You talked to me in the hall and said read this, is all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I handed you Exhibits 5040 and 5041, but other than giving -it to you and asking you to read it before the interview? - -Mr. BEATY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any other member of the -Commission staff? - -Mr. BEATY. You are speaking of the Warren Commission? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BEATY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than the interview that you had with Dallman -and Quigley on December 3, 1963, do you recall whether you were -interviewed by any other Federal agent? - -Mr. BEATY. No; I am pretty sure I wasn't. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ALVIN R. BROCK - -The testimony of Alvin R. Brock was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Alvin R. Brock, the -patrolman, Dallas police department. Mr. Brock, my name is Leon Hubert, -I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the -President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order -11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and -the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with -that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized -to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Brock. I state to you that the -general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, -and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President -Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In -particular, as to you Mr. Brock, the nature of the inquiry is to -determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other -pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Brock, -you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by J. -Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, to Chief -Curry, asking him to make his men available. Under the rules adopted by -the Commission you are entitled to 3-day written notice prior to the -taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness -may waive the 3-day written notice if he wishes to do so. And now I ask -you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand then and raise your right hand so that I may -swear you? - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BROCK. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name? - -Mr. BROCK. Alvin R. Brock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Mr. BROCK. Twenty-five. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? - -Mr. BROCK. 207 East Place, Ennis, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment? - -Mr. BROCK. Patrolman, for the city of Dallas, police department. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the Dallas police department? - -Mr. BROCK. Three and a half years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that time, how did you make your living? - -Mr. BROCK. Worked as assembler in aircraft. - -Mr. HUBERT. Assembler--aircraft--what? - -Mr. BROCK. As an assembler of aircrafts. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work at that? - -Mr. BROCK. Once I worked for approximately a year, 10 months, Temco, -and before that approximately a year and a half at Chance Vought. - -Mr. HUBERT. I guess prior to that you were going to school? - -Mr. BROCK. Prior to that I worked at Lone Star Gas for approximately a -year, and high school before that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You graduated from high school? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what particular part of the police department are you -in? - -Mr. BROCK. Radio patrol. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is under what captain? - -Mr. BROCK. I work for Captain Talbert. - -Mr. HUBERT. Cecil Talbert? - -Mr. BROCK. I don't know his first name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Cecil Talbert. And are you in one of the prowl cars? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about November the -24th. What time did you go on duty that day? - -Mr. BROCK. 7:30 a.m. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then your shift would have ended---- - -Mr. BROCK. 3:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. P.M.? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you report at 7:30? - -Mr. BROCK. Well, assembly room, I guess is what you call it. We all -reported there. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the Dallas police department? - -Mr. BROCK. In the basement of the city hall; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you are assigned to your cars and go cruising? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had communication by radio, two men---- - -Mr. BROCK. We were working two men. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you that day? - -Mr. BROCK. M. L. Wise. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually get out on the streets and start prowling? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened? - -Mr. BROCK. We received a call from the dispatcher to call 511, that is -radio patrol office. - -Mr. HUBERT. And did you do that? - -Mr. BROCK. And we called them and they advised us to come on down there -as soon as we could. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get down there? - -Mr. BROCK. It was a few minutes after 9. I don't know exactly. - -Mr. HUBERT. What prowl car were you driving? Do you remember the number -of it? - -Mr. BROCK. We were working squad 71. That is the number of the squad, -not the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a different car number every day or drive the -same car usually? - -Mr. BROCK. You mean the same---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Talking about squad 71--I mean, the automobile has a number -on it, doesn't it? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes; I don't recall what the number--we usually have the -same one. - -Mr. HUBERT. Same car? What did you do? Park your car in the---- - -Mr. BROCK. We took it down there and parked it in the alley there just -north of the--on Commerce at Pearl Street, and walked on down to the -city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. You parked it on Pearl Street, or in the alley? - -Mr. BROCK. In the alley, just north of Commerce, just off Pearl Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the alleyway that runs from Pearl up to the back of -the city hall building and then makes a right to Main Street? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Has the form of an L-shape, is that right? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You put it in that alleyway? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive it all the way up that alleyway up there? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir; it was down close to the street there. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you walked up the alley? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir; we walked back out on the street and then down to -the building and then---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't go in the building through the back door. - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Through that back door? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you try the back door? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all parked your car near Pearl Street -and didn't even walk up or ride up the alley at all? - -Mr. BROCK. Oh, no; we walked back out and went down the street sidewalk. - -Mr. HUBERT. Went down Pearl Street to Commerce? - -Mr. BROCK. Went down Commerce, cut across a parking lot to Commerce, -down to the city hall that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was about what time? - -Mr. BROCK. A few minutes after 9. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. BROCK. I don't know exactly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you report to? What did you do? - -Mr. BROCK. We reported to 511 patrol office, to Lieutenant Pierce. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Rio Pierce, I think you call him? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What orders did he give you? - -Mr. BROCK. He told us just to sit down there for a few minutes, until -they decided what they wanted us to do. Then about 9:20, I guess it -was, he told me to go down to the basement and report to Sergeant Dean -and Sergeant Putnam. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is Patrick Dean, I think? - -Mr. BROCK. P. T. Dean. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you report to him? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened? - -Mr. BROCK. Sergeant Putnam assigned me on what they call the elevator -area there, there in the basement at the east end of the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time were you posted there? - -Mr. BROCK. It would be about 9:30, I would imagine. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were your orders? - -Mr. BROCK. To not let anyone in except police officers and members of -the press. - -Mr. HUBERT. Into what? - -Mr. BROCK. Into the basement area. - -Mr. HUBERT. From what? - -Mr. BROCK. Well, about from anywhere--see there was an elevator there -that goes to the next floor on it--in the municipal building. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the service elevator, are you? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; there is a service elevator, and the other -elevators, they were not working, but the service elevator was the one. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you know they weren't working? - -Mr. BROCK. Well, I presumed they wasn't. They never did open the time I -was--actual time I was there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of a fire staircase in that general area? - -Mr. BROCK. There was a, I believe it is, right to the--right around the -corner from the elevators on the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Be to your---- - -Mr. BROCK. Be to the left of the elevators, I guess it would be then. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you were facing the east elevator? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; I was in a position where I could watch it and the -elevator, too. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want--you know, it won't show up on here, so, I -want to show you a map or chart of the basement area and in order to -identify it so that the record may show that we are both talking about -the same thing, I am going to ask you to sign this with me, and I am -marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964." This will be Exhibit 5113, -deposition of A. R. Brock. I am signing my name beneath that and I'll -ask you to sign your name just for the purposes of identification. And -now have a look at the map and I would just like you to put, not one -spot, because obviously, you can't stand in one spot, but just sort -of draw by making sort of an area, circle or oblong just the way you -walked and watched. - -Mr. BROCK. What I done, I was in a position here. I didn't move out of -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, you can mark it then. Just put a circle. - -Mr. BROCK. I would stay in this position where I could watch the stairs -and the elevator, too. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are facing, most of the time, toward Main Street? - -Mr. BROCK. Well, I would be facing one or the other there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where you marked the circle, I am drawing a line from it, -then I am writing, "Position of A. R. Brock during the time he was -guarding elevators and staircase." Right? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am putting a circle around that language and connecting -it by a line to the circle that you drew showing your position. I -think you have testified that all the time you were there, the regular -service elevators, which are on this chart, denoted as elevators Nos. 1 -and 2, weren't working at all? - -Mr. BROCK. They never opened them the entire time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody go up or down the staircase here, which I am -marking by putting in "X"? - -Mr. BROCK. No one went in or downstairs on the staircase. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever--did you observe this first aid station? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody come in or go out of that the whole -time you were there? - -Mr. BROCK. At the time that I was assigned there, the doctor was in the -first aid station, and Sergeant Putnam contacted him and told him he -would have to leave the basement area. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, he got out? - -Mr. BROCK. No one entered after that. - -Mr. HUBERT. By the way, I think you stated the time that you were -posted, but let's repeat it to be sure. - -Mr. BROCK. I think it was about 9:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there how long? - -Mr. BROCK. Oh, I believe it was 10:45 when I left there. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, now. Was there any--any people either entered or -left this service elevator during the time you were there? - -Mr. BROCK. When I first got down there there were three city employees -and the elevator operator standing there at the door of the elevator -around in front, looking around, just seeing what was going on and -shortly after I got there, I told them they would have to leave the -basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were they in some kind of a janitorial uniform so that you -could tell that they were employees? - -Mr. BROCK. I have seen them before. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know their names? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Men and women? - -Mr. BROCK. There was one woman. I haven't seen her before, but from -what I gather, the way she was talking to the others, she was a -telephone operator there at the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. White woman? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were they all white people? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir; there was one building engineer. Engineer, I -believe, is what he was called--a white man. There was a Negro, two -Negroes, one was the elevator operator, one parked cars in the basement -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you made them all go upstairs? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they come down any more? - -Mr. BROCK. The elevator came down one other time. Sergeant Putnam -brought one of the TV men over there, wanted to go up the fourth--fifth -floor to do some kind of work with the equipment there, and the -elevator come and picked him up and went up and brought him back in a -few minutes, and that was the only person went up or down the elevator. - -Mr. HUBERT. As long as you were there? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you all give the elevator operator any instructions -about what he was to do? - -Mr. BROCK. We told him to take it up on the first floor and not bring -it back in the basement, that is, open the door of it in the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was after the TV man had been brought up and down? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at that point, after the TV man had been -brought up and down, he was issued instructions, "Now, don't come down -here any more." - -Mr. BROCK. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And all the time you stayed there he didn't? - -Mr. BROCK. It didn't come down any more. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who got off of that spot at 10:45? - -Mr. BROCK. Sergeant Putnam. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did he put you after that? - -Mr. BROCK. He assigned me over to a traffic intersection where the auto -was going to take to the city jail--county jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you went and helped there? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You drove? - -Mr. BROCK. My partner drove; M. L. Wise drove my car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Dropped you off? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did he drop you off? - -Mr. BROCK. Elm and Ervay. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there for how long? - -Mr. BROCK. Until about 11:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who relieved you then? - -Mr. BROCK. 11:30 my partner picked me up and reported to Parkland. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay at Parkland? What time did you get -there and what time did you leave, we'll put it that way. - -Mr. BROCK. I would just be guessing. Stayed there probably an hour or -hour and a half. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any reserve officers around? - -Mr. BROCK. Where? - -Mr. HUBERT. Parkland? - -Mr. BROCK. There was lots of officers out there. I don't remember -seeing any reserve officers out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Actually, can you tell the difference from the uniforms? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What? The badge? - -Mr. BROCK. They have a patch on their arm that says, "Dallas Police -Reserve Officer," or "Reserve Officer," of some sort and they don't -carry guns. All they carry is a nightstick. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Newman? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't. I don't know any of them, I don't guess, -by name, that I can recall right now. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you see another officer on duty in the -basement but closer to the ramp that runs between Main and Commerce? - -Mr. BROCK. There was a, I believe, a reserve officer standing somewhere -in this area. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, the arrow points--let the record show that the arrow -pointed to by the witness is being marked by me with a circle, and I am -writing, "Position of Reserve Officer, as testified to by A. R. Brock," -and I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it with -this smaller circle. Do you know that reserve officer's name? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I just noticed him there. I didn't---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay there about the same time you did? - -Mr. BROCK. I believe he was still there or somewhere in that area when -I left, and there was another reserve officer assigned in this area -here [indicating], because he was walking around, back and forth in -this area around the staircase and around where I was assigned, also. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose I draw a line, I will start the line with -"1," and---- - -Mr. BROCK. I would say he went over in this area rather than come up on -it this way. - -Mr. HUBERT. He went out to about the place marked "2" and I am putting -the number "1" and "2" in a circle. Now, the line "1" and "2" is where -you saw this reserve officer walking up and down? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you don't know his name? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first got there? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. He came later? Was he there when you left? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have read these two statements? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to mark them for identification as follows: "An FBI -report of an interview of you made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin -on December 4, 1963, for identification. I am marking it, "Dallas, -Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5114, deposition of A. R. Brock." And -signing my name underneath it. It has two pages, and so, I am placing -my initials in the left-hand corner on the second page, and I'm also -marking for identification what seems to be a copy of a letter dated -November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, the original, apparently, has -been signed by you, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, -Exhibit No. 5115, deposition of A. R. Brock." I am signing my name. It -has only one page. Now, I understand that you have read both of these -documents? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make? I would like you to express -yourself as to whether those documents represent the truth and are they -complete, or do they have omissions or should anything be deleted as -wrong or just tell me your thoughts about the documents dealing first -with the FBI report which has been marked "5114"? - -Mr. BROCK. These are true, to the best of my memory. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that true of 5115, too? - -Mr. BROCK. That would be the other one? Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make on these? Do you think they -represent what you know? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; they--I think they represent all that I know about -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that between those two documents, to wit, -5114, 5115, and the material we got on the chart and your deposition, -itself, that we now know just everything you know about the matter? - -Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; do you care to add anything else in any way? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't know of anything else that would---- - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by me or any -other member of the Commission staff prior to the starting of this -deposition? - -Mr. BROCK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, that's all. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE B. H. COMBEST - -The testimony of Detective B. H. Combest was taken at 9 a.m., on March -26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of B. H. Combest. Mr. Combest, my -name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the -general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of -Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of -Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's -Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint -resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. - -I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Combest, the nature of -the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death -of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general -inquiry. Mr. Combest, you appeared here today by virtue of a general -request made to your Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel -on the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by -the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the -taking of the deposition, but the rules, however, also provide that a -witness may waive this notice. Are you willing now to waive the 3-day -notice? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand to be sworn, please? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth -and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name, sir? - -Mr. COMBEST. Billy H. Combest. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, your name is Billy and not William? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it is Billy. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your age? - -Mr. COMBEST. Thirty-three. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir? - -Mr. COMBEST. 2803 Linhaven, Mesquite, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mesquite, Tex. - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir? - -Mr. COMBEST. Detective for the city of Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so employed? - -Mr. COMBEST. With the department a little over 9 years. I have been a -detective about 4 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on Sunday, November 24th, 1963? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir, I was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that one of your regular working days or had you been -called in specially? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, my regular working day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. How well did you know him? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, I knew him very well by sight. I had seen him -numerous occasions before, over a period of approximately 4, 4-1/2 -years. I knew him through business with the--checking his location for -violations, routine checks by the police. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would there be any doubt that you would recognize him as -soon as you saw him? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You would recognize him even in a crowd of people? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I would have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it make any difference in your recognition if he had -a hat on or not? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Combest, I ask you to identify some documents and -in order for the record to show that we are talking about the same -thing, I am going to mark them. I now mark what appears to be a copy -of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief -of police, and the original apparently was signed by you, as, "Dallas, -Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5099. Deposition of B. H. Combest." -I am signing my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr., on the first page. On the -second page, I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner. -I am also marking for identification what purports to be a report of -the FBI of an interview with you by Special Agents Dallman and Quigley -on December 2, 1963, consisting of four pages, putting on this first -page, in the right side margin the following, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, -1964. Exhibit No. 5101. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I am signing my -name on the first page below that and placing my initials in the lower -right-hand corner of the three succeeding pages. Now, Mr. Combest, you -have read the letter dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, which -I have marked Exhibit 5099. Does that document represent the truth, so -far as you know it? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comments to make about it? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now let's turn to a document which I have marked -5101, which is the FBI report, and I will ask you if you have read that? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you have any comments to make on that, corrections, -deletions, anything been omitted? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, I want to know whether this represents a -true, full statement of the interview and what you said, or didn't say, -and let's have an explanation of it. - -Mr. COMBEST. Okay, sir. On the fourth page there, the third paragraph -where---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. COMBEST. They relate to the person named as Newman. They -misunderstood me, evidently, on that. He does work at the Theatre -Lounge as it so states there, but Ruby does not have anything to do -with the Theatre Lounge. This is another so-called strip joint in the -downtown area. - -Mr. HUBERT. Here is the sentence we are talking about. "He did recall, -however, that an individual by the name of Newman, first name unknown, -was formerly district supervisor for the liquor control board, worked -for Ruby at the Theatre Lounge." Now, your statement is that that is an -incorrect statement of what you said? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you correct it, please? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, the question was did I know of any police officers -that had worked for Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. COMBEST. At the time I told him, "No," I did not and I explained -possibly where they had gotten their information was that a reserve -police officer had made a statement to some news media that he had -worked for Jack Ruby, but he is not a regular policeman for the city of -Dallas, and I also told him that possibly what they had heard that this -L. L. Newman, who formerly worked for the Texas Liquor Control Board -was working at the Theatre Lounge in the downtown area, and possibly -that was what they had heard. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you actually told them that there were two -Newmans involved, one who had been a reserve officer---- - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I do not recall the name of the reserve officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Two different individuals, one, who had been a reserve -officer and one who had been with the Texas Liquor Control Board? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your statement to them was that possibly what they were -thinking about when they were questioning you was that the Newman who -had worked for the Texas Liquor Control Board was the one you thought -had once worked for the Theatre Lounge? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did Ruby have any connection with the Theatre Lounge? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; none whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did, as a matter of fact? - -Mr. COMBEST. It is either Abe or Barney Weinstein. One of the brothers -owned the Theatre Lounge. One of the brothers owns the Colony Club. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that perhaps I should call your attention -to the next sentence, too, because you may want to correct it in the -light of this testimony. The next sentence which is the last sentence -of the very top paragraph of the last page of Exhibit 5101 reads as -follows: "Newman terminated his employment with the State about a year -and a half ago and it would have been possibly about that time that he -started working for Ruby." - -Mr. COMBEST. No; there again, evidently they misunderstood me. It was -possibly that time that he went to work for the Theatre Lounge. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you any other comments to make with -reference to the FBI report, which is Exhibit 5101? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, I believe it is on page 3, first paragraph, -in--where they say, I didn't--didn't observe Ruby make any statement at -the time of the shooting, could not recall Ruby making statements. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I understand that you wish to comment on -or make some correction in a sentence on the third page of Exhibit -5101, which sentence begins on the sixth line from the top of the page -and reads as follows: "As best he could recall Ruby had what could be -described as a determined look, or grimace on his face, and he could -recall Ruby making no statement in conjunction with his action." Now, I -understand you want to comment on that sentence? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it may be correct as it is said there. I -don't--the way I was--the way I say it is not exactly the way I meant -it. I told them he was talking. He was making statements but I could -not recall anything word by word to tell them or any exact words that -he said at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suppose that is true now, that you can't recall any -exact words that he said at the time. - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, can you tell us without using the exact words, the -sense of what he was saying? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, it appeared to me that at the time he was cursing -Oswald, but again, I wasn't close enough to hear the words, his exact -words. I could tell he was talking, tell he was making some statements, -but I cannot recall anything he said exactly. I wasn't that close. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. In other words, what you are really changing to, -instead of the affirmative statement that you couldn't recall Ruby -making any statement, you are changing it to say you think he was -saying something but you couldn't hear? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. What other corrections do you have then? - -Mr. COMBEST. That's all I have, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. With the corrections that you have noted in the FBI report, -which have been marked for identification as Exhibit 5101, did you -consider that the FBI report is a fair statement of what you said to -the FBI agent involved? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it represents the truth? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, and so that the record may show that we are both -speaking of the same document, I would like you to sign your name below -mine here on Exhibit 5099 and initial the second page below my initial, -and do the same thing with Exhibit 5101. - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. Did you say that there was four pages on that -earlier? There are five, I believe, aren't there? - -Mr. HUBERT. Beg your pardon, sure are. It has been brought to my -attention that Exhibit 5101, which I have previously identified as -having four pages, in fact, has five, and I notice now that I have -failed to place my initial on the second page, apparently having -missed it, so, I now place my initial on the second page. All being -initialed now. I have marked for identification a chart, or floor -plan of the Dallas Police Department basement area showing the jail -office, the parking area, down ramp from the Main Street, the upper -ramp to Commerce Street, and for the purpose of identification with -this testimony, I have marked this document as follows: "Dallas, Texas, -March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5100. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I have -signed my name under that in order also that we may recognize that -we are talking about the same document. I will ask you to put your -signature below mine on that document, sir. - -When did you first learn about the time of the plan to transfer Oswald? - -Mr. COMBEST. Sometime late the preceding day that I heard it through -the news media that we were going to transfer him the next morning, and -I don't recall the exact time, but the time of transfer was supposed to -be pretty early the next morning, the way I understood it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean 5 or 6? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, 7 or 8. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty? - -Mr. COMBEST. I believe it was 9 o'clock in the morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. Didn't your shift go on at 7, your regular shift? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday it begins at---- - -Mr. COMBEST. We have a 9 to 5, and a 10 to 6 squad working Sundays. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I know that, the FBI report indicates that. But, you -reported to central police headquarters at 7 a.m.? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I overlooked that. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is incorrect then? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you want to change the first sentence of the third -paragraph on the first page? Exhibit 5101 which states you reported at -7 a.m., to show that you reported at 9 a.m., on that Sunday, November -24? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any particular assignment as to the transfer -of Oswald? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; not before, just shortly before the transfer. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, from 9 o'clock when you reported until you -were given the assignment which we are going to in a minute, you went -about your normal duties? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, who gave you that particular assignment and what was -it? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, it was Captain Jones who works in the forgery bureau -of the Dallas Police Department. He came through the basement of the -jail and talked to Detective Beaty and Officer J. D. Hutchinson and, I -believe, some other officers there at the time, and told us to remain -in the basement and we would be given more specific orders shortly. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was that about? - -Mr. COMBEST. I would have to refer to my letter there. I don't remember -at this time. - -Mr. HUBERT. The letter says 10:50 approximately 10:50, is that about -right? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do? - -Mr. COMBEST. We remained there in the basement and shortly Captain -Jones came back off the elevator with what appeared to be all the -onduty officers in the building at that time. He told us to go outside -the jail office in the parking area and into the basement, itself, and -there he would station us. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he do so? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; he did. When he got outside he told us to form -a line either side of the passageway leading into the ramp where the -vehicles were parked to transfer Oswald, and he gave us orders not to -let anyone rush in, not let the lines close in. He also told us to make -sure that they didn't fall in behind him, to follow him out after they -had passed. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, there was a line formed on either side of the jail -corridor from the jail door to the basement area where the car was to -transport Oswald? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, if you will step over here, please, and have a look -at this mockup here. First of all, this is the inside jail office. -This is really--this is the corridor swinging door. This is the outside -corridor of the jail door. Now, looking at this first, try to fix your -position and then I'm going to ask you to place your position on this -map once you have related this map to the mockup, so we will have a -record on this map of where you were. - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; would have been standing just about here -[indicating], just almost to the corner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am placing--is this it? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am placing a circle where you say you were standing. That -is just off the corner of the intersection formed by the jail corridor -and the basement ramp, but toward the swinging door in the basement and -the jail office? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And, I'm going to put there, "Position of Combest as -stationed by Jones." Is that correct? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am circling that language and attaching the language to -the circle that you have indicated. Now, what time did you reach the -position that we just marked on the map? - -Mr. COMBEST. It would have been approximately 20 minutes before the -shooting, which would have placed it at 11, wouldn't it? 11 a.m. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at that position until the shooting? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I understand that you didn't remain absolutely -still, but you didn't walk around? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I stayed in that immediate area right there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who was on your right? - -Mr. COMBEST. R. L. Lowery. Detective R. L. Lowery. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark his position. That would have put him -almost---- - -Mr. COMBEST. Right at the corner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right at the corner? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am marking that, encircling the language, "Position of R. -L. Lowery," and do you remember who was to your left? - -Mr. COMBEST. Detective Beaty, Detective B. L. Beaty. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were facing in the direction of the Main Street ramp, -in the parking area on the Main Street side of the building? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were there for approximately 20 minutes? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you see out into the parking area on the Main Street -side of the building? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I could not. They completely blocked me, -television cameras and newsmen on this side--on this side of the rail, -and of down in the basement, itself. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am marking an area which I am going to call "area B," -with an oblong circle. Is that the area you are talking about? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you say that "area B," had television cameras and -personnel attending them? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And other people there, so that you were unable to see into -the parking area, is that correct? - -Mr. COMBEST. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark another area, "area A," and ask if -there were any people standing in that area? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes; there were. - -Mr. HUBERT. Roughly, how many? - -Mr. COMBEST. There were several officers standing here [indicating]. -There were some---- - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are just pointing to the Commerce -Street side of the area that I have marked "area A"? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; also down the line. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they were on the opposite side of the -corridor from you? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. A semicircle curving toward Commerce Street? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I'm marking a line, which I am going to start off at a -point called "1," and have it curve over to a point called "2," is that -approximately the line you are talking about? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, on that line from "1," to "2" you say there were a -number of detectives, or members of the police department? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize any of them? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, I remember "Blackie," that is the nickname, Harrison. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is W. J. Harrison? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I believe it is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was he, about? - -Mr. COMBEST. I don't recall exactly. I know that he was on that side, -and I lost contact with him as soon as Oswald started out. I don't -remember if he had moved, or if he was still standing directly across. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was in front of the people that I have marked here in -"area B," and "area A"? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than the detective, how many people do you -suppose were in that "area A," right back of the curving line marked -"1" to "2"? - -Mr. COMBEST. It would be an estimate on it at this time. I don't -recall. There were several. I would say 15, at least. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think they were standing shoulder to shoulder? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes; it was pretty crowded all the way around. - -Mr. HUBERT. That would make about what, two or three ranks of people? - -Mr. COMBEST. I don't recall exactly. I know there was a very large -crowd in the basement that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the whole basement? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there any people in the area which I am marking -roughly by an oblong figure, "area C," which is the ramp leading from -the parking area into Main Street, Commerce Street ramp? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; there were. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in there, too? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; there were several people there, newsmen and -also, several officers stationed in that area out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, were the television lights on all the time you were -standing there? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they bother you? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; they did. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what way? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, when we first came downstairs it was a little hard -to distinguish faces in this area here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. "Area B," the witness is pointing to "area B." - -Mr. COMBEST. And until you got used to them it was pretty hard to look -into them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you get used to them? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I was pretty well used to them at the time the -actual transfer took place. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you could distinguish faces of people in "area B"? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you distinguish faces in "area A"? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. The lights gave you no trouble by the time the transfer -actually took place, is that correct? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. When did you first see Ruby in that crowd? - -Mr. COMBEST. Just as they started to lead Oswald past me, at the corner -there I observed him lunge from the crowd. Almost the whole line of -people pushed forward when Oswald started to leave the jail office, the -door, the hall--all the newsmen were poking their sound mikes across -to him and asking questions, and they were everyone sticking their -flashbulbs up and around and over him and in his face. I don't--when he -first lunged forward I don't think anyone noticed him. I didn't until -he came apart from the crowd and continued on towards Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did he come from the area--we have marked on this -Exhibit 5100 as "area A" or as "area B," sir? - -Mr. COMBEST. The best I could tell he would be coming approximately -half way between them there, between what you have marked as "area A," -and "area B." - -Mr. HUBERT. Sort of from the corner there? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to take the pen and mark an "X" on the -spot that you first saw Ruby. - -Mr. COMBEST. About approximately [indicating], because---- - -Mr. HUBERT. This was really the front line "1," through "2." - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I'm writing on the map, "Position where Ruby was first -seen by Combest." Was he standing still then? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; he was stepping forward and--or lunging forward, -I guess would be the best way to put it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen him, of course, prior to that moment? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him in the crowd at all? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him coming down? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; when I was standing with the crowd I couldn't see -the ramp there, the Main Street ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. You could see a part of it, couldn't you, the bottom? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, no, sir; it slanted up and they had an air -conditioner sitting across here where you have to be almost in -your--standing directly in the bottom of the ramp you couldn't see the -top of it very clearly. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you testified that you knew Ruby's face well enough so -that you could distinguish it in a crowd? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had looked into that crowd and your eyes had become -accustomed to the lights? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I ask you if you saw him in the crowd before he lunged -forward? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you would have seen him had he been in that -crowd during the 15 minutes or so prior to that shot, the shooting? - -Mr. COMBEST. Quite possibly if he had been there very long I believe I -would have spotted him. I might not have, but knowing that he didn't -belong there I believe I would have spotted him right off. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what precautions were taken to assure that -people who did not belong there would not be there? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, everyone that went out into the basement from the -jail office had to have the press card, proper identification showing -that they were members of the press and police officers. Other than -that no one was admitted to the basement parking area. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of press cards were honored, and what were -dishonored? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, most of the news personnel there had the--had a -press card for that--I don't remember the wording. It was something -about--"Presidential press party," or something that they had. Of -course, it was recognized and then any other card that did have their -picture on it, and it had to say they were a member of a press, any -newspaper. I remember the Oklahoma City newspaper came in, and they -were admitted with their press cards. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they have to have their picture on the press cards? - -Mr. COMBEST. The ones I checked, I remember now I wasn't actually -stationed there at the cars. There were two uniformed officers here -who were actually doing the checking. Of course, I did check some to -expedite travel through that narrow corridor. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I'm trying to get at, there were no particular press -cards issued for this particular occasion? - -Mr. COMBEST. Not that I recall; no, sir. Not that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any instances in which you were involved -or in which you observed in which persons who were not properly--who -didn't have a press card, were removed or questioned? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; in my letter there to Chief Curry I recall there -was a girl that worked at the police information desk, which is in -the basement, by the records bureau, had went out into the basement, -at least on one occasion to summon officers that were wanted on the -telephone. On the next time that I noticed her start to go into there, -she was stopped by Sergeant Putnam, as I recall it. He advised her that -she would not go into the basement if she had messages to officers that -were in the basement, and she was not to leave her assignment behind -the information desk until the transfer was over. Also, to a civilian -employee that worked in the jail booking office proper. He had came -out into the parking basement, appeared to have a look around to see -what was going on. He was told to get back behind the desk in the jail -booking office and remain there until after the transfer was over. -Also, one other incident, I think I have also put in my letter there -and regarding a reporter for the Oklahoma City News, I believe his -name is Jim Standard. He did not have a press card. He was stopped and -questioned, but he did have proper identification to prove that he did -work for the Oklahoma City newspaper. He had a hospitalization card -made out to a group policy of this newspaper in Oklahoma City. Had some -letters and correspondence to him, addressed to him at that location, -and after convincing myself and Beaty, he convinced Captain Talbert -that he was a legitimate member of the press and he was admitted. Two -or 3 days after the incident I was in Oklahoma City and I saw the -article he had written showing this incident in Dallas and his picture -was also in the Oklahoma City paper, and I remembered him. I recognized -him. And he wrote a pretty good article on the security in the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to Ruby after the shooting? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything? - -Mr. COMBEST. Again, I heard him talking when he came into the jail -office proper, where the booking office is located. As I recall it, -they laid him on the floor to put the handcuffs on him more securely. -He was talking then as they led him past the spot where Oswald was -laying, near the elevator, to take him to jail. He was also talking. He -was looking in the direction of Oswald and was talking to the officers -that were leading him away. I don't recall any specific statement he -made. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Oswald say anything? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. He--I didn't hear him say a word hardly, after he -had been shot. He was moaning at the time Jimmy Leavelle, Graves, and I -laid him down on the floor and removed the handcuffs that he had on him. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was in the jail office? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. At the time I asked him and talked to him trying -to get him to make a statement to me at the time. Especially, after I -realized how serious the wound was. When we first asked him he appeared -to comprehend what I was saying. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him? - -Mr. COMBEST. Well, I told him was there anything that he wanted me to -tell anybody or was there anything he wanted to say right now before it -was too late, and I don't remember my--exactly the words that I did say -to him, but after I realized the seriousness of the wound, of course, -trying to let him know if he was ever going to say anything he was -going to have to say it then. - -Mr. HUBERT. You thought he was dying? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. And do you think you used language to him to convey to him -your idea that he was dying? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any indication that he actually understood what -you were trying to convey to him? - -Mr. COMBEST. When I first started asking him he did. He looked up at -me, seemed to recognize that I--who was talking to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't mean that he recognized you as a person? - -Mr. COMBEST. He recognized that I was the person talking to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, he didn't say anything? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; just shook his head and I said, "Do you have -anything you want to tell us now," and he shook his head. - -Mr. HUBERT. He did not say the word "No"? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; he did not say anything at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to him that if he had any accomplices or -wanted to clarify the shooting of the President, that he had better do -it right quick? - -Mr. COMBEST. Not in those words. I didn't mention "accomplice," or -anything. I was real excited at the time but I kept talking to him as -long as I thought that he would try to answer me, hoping that he would -give a dying declaration on the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you think you used language sufficiently clear to him -to indicate to him that in your opinion he was dying and on account of -the fact that he was dying it was just about the last time he would -have a chance to say anything about the shooting of the President, or -the shooting? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby thereafter? - -Mr. COMBEST. What was the question, sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby, thereafter? - -Mr. COMBEST. I didn't see him until after he had passed through the -jail office. Now, in the jail elevator. The next time I saw him at the -preliminary hearing in Judge Brown's office in the court house. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't hear him say anything else? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard anything that would indicate to you that any -member of the police department actually saw Ruby in the garage prior -to the shooting? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; not on this day, this particular day. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about this day. - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did any member of the police department ask you whether you -had seen Ruby prior to the shooting? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was that? - -Mr. COMBEST. Lieutenant Revill, Jack Revill and Lieutenant Cornwall. -Now, they were members of a group that were investigating within the -police department, and I was interrogated by them as to if I had seen -him that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your answer was the same as it was---- - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it was "no." - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any suggestion by these gentlemen or anybody else -that you should say that you had not seen him? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; none whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other statements or comments that you would -like to make that have not been said or reported in any way that you -know of by you concerning the matter that we have been talking about -this morning? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion, and concerning your letter, which has -been identified as 5099, the FBI report of the interview with you which -has been identified as 5101, and this deposition today represents all -you know about this, completely? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. HUBERT. And all of it is correct and true? - -Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, has there been any interview between -me and you, or you and any other member of the Commission's staff other -than this deposition this morning? - -Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; there have not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF KENNETH HUDSON CROY - -The testimony of Kenneth Hudson Croy was taken at 10:30 p.m., on March -26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory -staff to the General Counsel of the President's Commission on the -assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was set up under -Presidential Resolution No. 11130, signed by President Johnson on -November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress -No. 137. As a result of this Presidential Executive order and the -Presidential resolution, the Commission has been given authority to -promulgate certain rules of procedure, and I have been authorized in -accordance with those rules to take your sworn deposition, Mr. Croy. - -I want to explain to you a little bit first before we go forward with -the deposition of what this testimony, why we are taking the testimony. -The Commission has been set up for the purpose of investigating, -evaluating, and reporting back to the President on all of the facts -surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent -murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are particularly concerned here today -in calling you, with delving into the events surrounding Oswald's -death, although if you have any other information that you feel would -be useful to us in any other areas of our inquiry, we would like very -much to have that. - -Now, I also want to explain to you, Mr. Croy, that you have been asked -to appear here today as a result of a letter which was sent by Mr. J. -Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission, to Chief -Curry, and your name was listed on that and Chief Curry arranged to -set up the schedule. I should tell you that under the rules of the -Commission you are actually entitled to get a 3-day written notice -before we can require you to appear here. However, we do have a -provision in the rules that permit you to waive the notice if you are -agreeable to it. - -Now, the first thing I want to do is ask you if you would like us to -send you the letter, and I want to make it clear that we do send these -letters out as a routine matter, and if for any reason you feel that -you would like to have advance notice and so forth, that we haven't -really given you, why feel free to tell me now. - -Mr. CROY. No; I would just have to come back down here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you are willing to waive? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I also want to explain to you that you have a right to be -represented by counsel before this Commission and again, many of the -people are represented by counsel. I want you to understand that we, in -fact, encourage people to come here with an attorney if they feel there -is any reason at all that it might be useful to them. I see that you -are not here with an attorney right now, and I presume that this is of -your own choice. - -However, if you would like to have an attorney, I wish you would let me -know about it and we would be happy to make arrangements for further -time when you could have one. - -Mr. CROY. I don't see what I would need an attorney for. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think in most cases it is not really necessary, -except from the attorney's standpoint. - -Mr. CROY. He gets paid for doing nothing anyway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, some of them do. - -Mr. CROY. This one does. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you an attorney? - -Mr. CROY. No. I have my own attorney. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I shouldn't have asked that question. All right, if it is -agreeable with you, I will ask you to raise your right hand and I will -administer the oath. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you give us your full name? - -Mr. CROY. Kenneth Hudson Croy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. CROY. 1658 Glenfield. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. CROY. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born? - -Mr. CROY. February 21, 1937. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. CROY. I have several. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's have them in order. - -Mr. CROY. I am in the real estate business. I have a Mobil service -station. I am in the steel erection business. And I am a professional -cowboy, and that is about it that I can think of right now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We Yankees up North don't know what professional cowboys -are. - -Mr. CROY. Rodeo. You got rodeos up North. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; they come up once in a while and alternate with -circuses. How long have you been doing that? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, about 12 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I would not like to waste all the court reporter's time -talking about this, I don't think the Commission would probably be too -interested. - -Are you also connected in some way with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. CROY. I am in the reserves. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the reserves. - -Mr. CROY. Since August of 1959. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any rank in the reserves? - -Mr. CROY. I am a sergeant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to take out a little time here and mark -two documents. One of them is a report of an interview that you had on -December 4, 1963, with FBI Agents John E. Dallman and R. Neil Quigley. - -I have marked this particular document that I just referred to "Dallas, -Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5051." - -I want to hand this to you, Mr. Croy, and ask you if you have had an -opportunity to read that over? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Do you have any additions, deletions, -or corrections that you feel should be made in that report? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are satisfied with the report, let me ask you then -to sign it and date it. - -Mr. CROY. Where at? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page there some place near where we have -marked it with an exhibit number, some conspicuous spot. - -Mr. CROY. [Signs name.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am marking what purports to be a copy of a letter -dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry and signed by you in -the following manner: "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5052." - -Would you look at this, Mr. Croy, and would you tell me if you have had -an opportunity to read that over? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; I have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, deletions, or corrections that -you would make with the respect to the accuracy of that letter? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, would you sign that and date it also in the same -manner that you did the other one? - -Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I have also marked for identification what purports -to be a copy of an affidavit in fact, sworn to before A. L. Curtis, -a notary public, by you on December 1, 1963, and I have marked that -"Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5053." - -I am going to hand you that, Mr. Croy, and ask you if you have had an -opportunity to look that over? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; I have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is that a true and accurate copy of an affidavit -which you prepared on that date? - -Mr. CROY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you then sign it and date it, please? - -Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you report to the jail or the police department on -Sunday, November 24? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you come in, do you recall? - -Mr. CROY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, your letter of November 26 indicates you came in at -8:35? - -Mr. CROY. That is probable. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, sometime after you came in, you were assigned to -guard a particular area of the basement; is that correct? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what you were assigned to do? - -Mr. CROY. When I came into the city hall, I went to the assembly room, -and that is where any initial assignments are made, in the assembly -room, making up the muster and the roster of the reserve officers that -arrived. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? - -Mr. CROY. Well, I was in and out of there, between there and the -basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain on that duty? - -Mr. CROY. I never was relieved from that duty. I went in there, but I -never was relieved from it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have stated in your letter to Chief Curry of -November 26, 1963, in paragraph 3, "I was assigned to the basement and -jail office entrance, and my assignment was that of a guard." - -Mr. CROY. Well, that was in the entire thing down there is -what--everyone in the basement was considered a guard at the same time, -if you are standing in front of the entrances, elevators, or in the -back of the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you never had any particular station of duty there? - -Mr. CROY. No. I wasn't just assigned a spot and told to stay there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time when you stationed yourself at -the foot of the Main Street ramp in the basement? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About when was that? For how long before Oswald came out, -would you estimate? - -Mr. CROY. Well, I couldn't really estimate, because it has been almost -4 months ago and I don't really know how long it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you took up your position at the base of the -ramp, had the armored car arrived? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The armored car was already there? You weren't there at -any time when the armored car was not there? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you give us any statement of how long you -were there? Were you there for 2 minutes prior to the time Oswald came -down? - -Mr. CROY. I was longer than that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there 15 minutes? - -Mr. CROY. I couldn't say. I don't remember whether I was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you were there as long as 5 minutes? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as long as 10 minutes? - -Mr. CROY. I couldn't say that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in one general area when you stationed -yourself at the bottom of the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to be stationed at that position? - -Mr. CROY. There was another officer, a regular officer, I believe, -commented that they needed at least three more officers at that -particular position. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that regular officer was? - -Mr. CROY. No; I don't. I don't even know who he was. I just remember -there was a regular officer, supervisory officer in uniform stated they -needed at least three more. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he state this to you personally, or were you in a -group at that time? - -Mr. CROY. I was just standing out there on this ramp leading into -the basement where the two ramps lead down into the basement, and he -stepped out there, and as well as I remember, just made a quick check -and pointed out that he needed at least three men at that location. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from the time that you finished doing your clerical -work when you first came in, until you all were ultimately stationed -at the base of the Main Street ramp, did you have any particular -responsibilities? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. There were several reserve officers that were coming -right directly into the basement, and the first reported to the -assembly room to get their assignments or be told what to do. - -I would take these men and take them in there and get them mustered in -on the roster so we would know they were there and have a record. - -I would either tell them where to report, or take them to a certain -station and station them there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, do you recall if you were in the basement when -Captain Jones was there? - -Mr. CROY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you were in the basement when a group -of regular police officers, detectives and so forth came into the -basement from the public elevators that go up into the police building, -and walked through the swinging door and were given assignments by a -regular officer of some sort? Were you there at that time? - -Mr. CROY. I don't guess I was; I don't recall it at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, while you were stationed at the base of -the Main Street ramp, do you recall if you saw any cars go in and out -of the basement? - -Mr. CROY. There was one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw one car? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were in the basement -generally before you were stationed at the ramp, did you see any cars -go in and out of the garage or basement area? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe how much traffic there was? - -Mr. CROY. No. There wasn't any squads bringing prisoners in, that I -recall. I don't recall any of that. - -I recall one car leaving, going up the south ramp, one car that I know -of, because I knew who was in that car. - -And other than that one and the one that went up the north ramp, I -don't recall any other cars going out of the basement area. There could -have been. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much before you saw that one last car go up the -Main Street ramp, how long would you say you had been in the basement? -How long before that had you been at your station in the basement? - -Mr. CROY. What do you mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start over again. How long had you been at this -station which you had at the base of the Main Street ramp prior to the -time that the last car went up the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. CROY. How long had I been in the basement before then? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you been in the general area at the base of -the ramp? Continuously? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know, I guess a couple or 3 minutes, something like -that. I remember that because he nearly ran over my toes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were standing at the base of the ramp prior to -the time that the car went up the ramp, do you remember whether any -equipment of any sort was moved into the basement area? - -Mr. CROY. Equipment? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CROY. Just anything moved in there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any activities of newspaper people or of TV -people? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, they were milling all over the place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any movement of equipment? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a TV camera being rolled through the -swinging double doors at the entrance, almost at the entrance to -the Main Street ramp or the bottom ramp, and being wheeled in any -direction? Being pushed, a TV camera? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall any bringing in there. They had them down -there in the basement all morning, that I remember. I don't remember -bringing in any more in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you recall the three TV cameras being stationed -there? At this point I would like to hand you my pen and ask you if you -would mark on there? - -Mr. CROY. You want an "X"? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Make a rectangle and write TV inside of it. - -Mr. CROY. [Marks.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have indicated on the map that there were two -behind the railing, sort of directly opposite the hallway that leads -out from the double doors? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that there was a third one over against the railing of -the entrance to the garage closer to Commerce Street? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that all of those were placed in that -position that they were in, or do you think they could have been -someplace else? - -Mr. CROY. They were placed there when I walked in the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Would you tell us what happened at the time that -this automobile went up the Main Street ramp? Which side of the -automobile were you standing on? Were you standing between it and the -railing, or were you standing between it and the wall? - -Mr. CROY. It and the wall on the left hand side of the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many people were in that area, would you say, -in the general area across from the wall that you were near, and the -railing across? - -Mr. CROY. Police officers and press? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many would you say were there? - -Mr. CROY. I couldn't say. I don't know. There was several there. They -were all standing out in here, and when the car came out, everybody had -to get out of the way and let the car get through. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any effort to help push the people back? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As cars went up the ramp and got ahead of you people, what -did you do? - -Mr. CROY. I watched it go up the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it stop at the top of the ramp? - -Mr. CROY. No; I just watched it going up the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see the police officer there at the top of the -ramp? - -Mr. CROY. Not at that time, I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At what point did you lose sight? Where was the car when -you lost sight of the car at the top of the ramp? - -Mr. CROY. When he got almost to the top of the ramp, I turned back -around. I didn't watch it drive on out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. As you looked around, did you see anything of -significance? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when somebody gave you instructions -to move the press back against the railing? - -Mr. CROY. Yes, sir; there was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? - -Mr. CROY. Prior to them bringing Oswald down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after the car went up the ramp? - -Mr. CROY. It was after. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it any substantial length of time after? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what makes you sure that it was after the car went up -the ramp? - -Mr. CROY. Because it was just prior to them bringing, just prior to -them bringing him out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you were told that, if you were to assume that -that car moved out of the ramp, approximately 1 minute before Oswald -was shot, would you still feel that this order to move the people back -from the railing was given after the car went up the ramp? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you think it could have been as little as, -no more than a minute after the car went up the ramp? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know how long it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel it was more than a minute after the car went -up the ramp? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You think this order was given more than a minute after -the car went up the ramp? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the officer standing who gave that order? - -Mr. CROY. Somewhere in this general area. He just stepped out of the -little hallway leading to the jail office. I don't know who it was. He -was a detective. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. CROY. In plain clothes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him emerge from the jail office? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He said move everybody back? - -Mr. CROY. Well, he didn't say move everybody back. He said move back -against the railing. At that particular time they were all crowded out -in here and all the way around. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the area right in front of the TV -cameras? - -Mr. CROY. And he said, move the press back against the railing, this -group right here. They didn't move them back because they wasn't -actually--what they were trying to do was clear a hall because they -were crowded right up to the entrance right here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say there was a group that was standing across the -Main Street ramp that wasn't pushed back? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing? Would you mark on the diagram -where you were standing when the order was given to push the people -back? - -Mr. CROY. Do you want me to put an "X"? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "C" in there and put a circle around it. - -Mr. CROY. [Complies.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you turn around and move the crowd back? - -Mr. CROY. There was a man with a camera, movie camera, sitting on his -shoulder, standing next to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which direction were you facing? - -Mr. CROY. I was facing to the south. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Toward Commerce Street? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; he would have been to my left. And there was also -another fellow standing just slightly in back of him. - -And when he gave this order to move the people back, I thought he -referred to everyone moving against the rail, because I was in back of -this other group of the press. I didn't bother with them. I let the -ones in front of them take care of them, and I turned to the man with -the camera and this other fellow and told them to move back against the -rail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize this other fellow? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, what did you do? - -Mr. CROY. I turned back around and watched the reporters in front of me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see someone there that you recognized? - -Mr. CROY. Where? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where the reporters were in front of you? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, maybe I don't understand your affidavit here. You -stated in here, "someone in authority gave instructions to move the -press back against the rail. At that time I turned and told two men -standing to my left to move back against the rail. One of these men had -a motion picture camera. The other one was in a dark maroon coat with -black thread woven into it. He was wearing a black hat. My father has a -coat something similar to the man I spoke to. - -"I then turned my attention back to the reporters which were standing -in front of me. I believe this man to have been Jack Ruby." - -The "to" is underlined. Which man are you referring to? - -Mr. CROY. The man with the maroon coat that was standing to my left. -The other man I told to move back against the rail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Miss Reporter, would you please turn back in your notes -and read where he referred to the position of the reporters? - -(The following questions and answers were read: - -"Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see someone there that you recognized? - -"Mr. CROY. Where? - -"Mr. GRIFFIN. Where the reporters were in front of you? - -"Mr. CROY. No.") - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will the reporter please indicate in the record what -portion was read back to the witness? - -Now, you heard the reporter read back that testimony. - -Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. You have said here, if I understand it -in your affidavit, that you saw a man whom you believed to be Jack Ruby. - -Mr. CROY. I believe when I wrote that up it was him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, have you since come to believe that that man -wasn't Jack Ruby? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You still believe that man was Jack Ruby? - -Mr. CROY. To myself, I still believe it was Jack Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. - -Mr. CROY. I don't know whether it was or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you came to believe that man was Jack Ruby? - -Mr. CROY. Well, as I was standing there and this blur came from my -left, someone running, and he run by me at a pretty good clip, he was -gaining momentum and he ran by me. I got a glimpse of his coat and the -coat matched the one that I had told this fellow to move back. At least -it seemed to me it did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man over against the railing? - -Mr. CROY. No; after I turned my attention back to the reporters, I -glanced back over my shoulder to see if they had done what I told them -to, and the man with the camera had gotten on the railing where could -get a good shot. The other fellow, I didn't see him. - -I didn't turn completely all the way around to see if he was in back of -me. I just glanced over my shoulder, so I presume he had gotten against -the railing or had moved around with the other reporters. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how far were you from the railing after you pushed -the reporters back over in that direction? - -Mr. CROY. I didn't push them. I asked them to step back over there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CROY. I was standing about midways to the ramp. Do you know how -wide that ramp is? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a line, a group of people in front of you? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this group, was it sort of in a line that stretched -across from the wall to the railing across the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you say were stretched across there? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. There was quite a few there, but I have no idea -how many were there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any people--as you turned back, were you -also part of a line, a second line? Were you part of a second line? - -Mr. CROY. Not that I know. I was just standing there. There were other -officers to my right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, one straggled line, this first line in -front of you? - -Mr. CROY. What do you mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you stating there was a fairly solid front line of -people? - -Mr. CROY. About two deep. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you behind that group of people? - -Mr. CROY. I was behind them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How far behind them were you? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, a couple of feet or 3 feet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Back where you were standing, were people as closely -bunched up as other people were? - -Mr. CROY. There wasn't anyone to my left other than the two people -I told to move back. To my right there were several other officers -standing there with me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Arnett one of the officers? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you show us where Captain Arnett was? - -Mr. CROY. [Marks.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were to Captain Arnett's right? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say there was nobody to your left except a man with a -movie camera? - -Mr. CROY. He got back upon the railing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time this man got up on the railing, there was -nobody that you can recall to your left? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you place on the map, on that chart, where you -think Ruby, where you saw this man that you believe to be Ruby, moved -from and to? Could you show us where? - -Mr. CROY. Do you mean after I told him to move? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CROY. I don't know where he moved to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he when you first saw him moving? Did you see -him moving? - -Mr. CROY. Maybe I don't understand you. As he ran into the crowd? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. CROY. After Oswald? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CROY. Where did I see him again? About right there [pointing]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Up in front of you? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; well, to my side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you put a "R" there where you saw him? - -Mr. CROY. [Makes mark.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody in front of him at that point? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; there was reporters. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There were reporters. Now, what did he do as he got to -these reporters? - -Mr. CROY. He ran through them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he push them aside, or what? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him push them? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see a man shoved? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which man got shoved? - -Mr. CROY. These reporters. He just lowered his head and ran through -them like a fullback went through a line. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel this man move by you, or did you first see -his motion when he was in front of you? - -Mr. CROY. Caught a glimpse of his motion. I have a wide range. I could -see over here. I saw a blur coming in, and, of course, by the time I -turned, he was in position. He was already in front of me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you can't tell from how far he had been running, can -you? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell if he had taken more than one step -before you had seen him? - -Mr. CROY. He had a good head of steam up, I will put it that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Captain King? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Blackie Harrison? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the people that you saw Ruby push through? - -Mr. CROY. Well, it was just a group of reporters there trying to get -closer to Ruby. I mean to Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any police officers near Ruby at the time that -he moved through that line? - -Mr. CROY. There were no uniform police officers. If there were some -detectives there, I don't know, because I didn't know any of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were down in the -basement, the 5-minute period that you were in the basement, were you -able to distinguish the plainclothes detectives from the newspaper -people? - -Mr. CROY. No; I was in the basement longer than 5 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The period that you were stationed at the base of the -ramp, the 15 minutes or more, were you able to distinguish the -uniformed officers from the newspaper people? - -Mr. CROY. Uniformed officers; yes. The detectives; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You couldn't distinguish them? All right. Are you able to -describe the relative size of the newspaper reporters that Ruby moved -there, in comparison to him? - -Mr. CROY. No; because this man had run through, Ruby, if it was Ruby, -was in a crouch. He was running low. The newspapermen were of average -height and average build. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How could you tell that the two men he pushed were -newspaper reporters? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. They might have been police officers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody that he pushed by have a camera in his hand or -microphone or a pad of paper or anything? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether they did or not. They were actually -standing in front of me and I was looking at their backs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen yourself in any photographs that have been -taken of the basement area? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you saw that photograph? Was it a -photograph in a magazine or newspaper or something? - -Mr. CROY. Television. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A TV film? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what station you saw that on? - -Mr. CROY. All of them. No; I don't. They just ran it and ran it and -reran it, and every time I was in the room, someone said, "There you -are," and I looked again. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a showing that the police department made to you, -or were you shown any films by the police department? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw this film on the regular, your home TV set, -something like that? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in any of these films a shot of Ruby -standing behind a very large man, standing right up at the back of a -very large man, a very tall man, a man perhaps a head taller than he? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you were shown these particular movie films, TV films -that you saw, could you pick yourself out for us? - -Mr. CROY. Well, the ones that I saw were the ones that I was trying to -get the gun from Ruby, and the ones that they had taken after it was -all over, and I was standing in the entrance to the jail office. Those -are the only ones I have seen. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't see a picture of yourself at the time Ruby -started to move out toward Oswald? - -Mr. CROY. No; I saw the reruns of it when he ran in there and shot him, -but I wasn't visible in that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any one of these films that you watched show you -reaching out and touching the coat of Ruby? - -Mr. CROY. No; none that I saw. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you met Jack Ruby before, haven't you? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many occasions had you seen Jack Ruby before he -came into the basement? - -Mr. CROY. Once, that I can recall. I may have seen him many times -before that, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As a reserve officer, do you have occasion to ride duty in -the downtown area? - -Mr. CROY. Sometimes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say you did duty in the downtown -area? - -Mr. CROY. Requires once a month. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any particular man that you always did duty with? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; there was one that I did ride quite a bit with. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that? - -Mr. CROY. J. W. Dyson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean in the downtown area, was there one that you rode -with? - -Mr. CROY. I didn't ride in any particular downtown area over twice -since I have been in the reserves, I don't guess. As a district in the -downtown area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to ride out in the area of the -Vegas Club? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would you ride in that area? - -Mr. CROY. I have ridden out there a couple or three times. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you ride that area with? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just went to the substation and checked out -with the squad. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Dyson assigned to that area? - -Mr. CROY. No; he is an APB. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is West Illinois Avenue anywhere near the Vegas Club? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about around 1720 South Lamar, is that anywhere near? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever testified in any court case before? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did there come a time when -you ran up the Main Street ramp and stopped reporters leaving? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after this scuffle on the floor? - -Mr. CROY. That is hard to say, because it was right there, you might -say, right with the scuffle on the floor that they said "seal the -basement." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand up there at the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, just a few minutes. Then I moved to the entrance into the -jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? - -Mr. CROY. A good while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what time did you go off duty? - -Mr. CROY. It was about 8 o'clock that night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. During that period, did you tell anybody that you had seen -a man brush by you who you thought was Ruby? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you tell at that time? - -Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Reserve Lieutenant McCoy? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall if I mentioned it or not to Reserve Lieutenant -Nicholson, I may have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Nicholson? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Lieutenant McCoy say when you told him that? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he said. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you tell him about it? - -Mr. CROY. We were just talking about it later on that afternoon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what were you saying? - -Mr. CROY. We were just talking about what happened in the basement, -where he was at and where I was at. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you speculating about where he came from or how he -got in or anything like that? - -Mr. CROY. A little bit, I am trying to figure out what the heck -happened, really. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other officers in the basement doing that also? - -Mr. CROY. They were doing it just between theirselves. There wasn't any -group talking about it, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was it that you talked, approximately, to -Lieutenant McCoy? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this, you say, a short time after you left your -position up on the Main Street ramp, or was it a long time after? - -Mr. CROY. It was a pretty good while after. An hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. An hour or so? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you told this Lieutenant McCoy -and you went off duty, what did you do? - -Mr. CROY. I sat up in the city planning room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there in the city planning room? - -Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy and Reserve Lieutenant Barney Merrell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else you can recall? - -Mr. CROY. Reserve Lieutenant Nicholson. And there was Captain Solomon -up there, and Captain Arnett, and several other reserve officers, that -we kind of set up a command post, is actually what it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing up there? - -Mr. CROY. Making assignments. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was giving you directions? - -Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of assignments were you making? - -Mr. CROY. Placing the men in different spots throughout the city hall -and seeing that they were relieved, and calling on the telephone to get -some more help. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some time to sit around and talk? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk about what you had seen down in the -basement? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell these men out there about Ruby brushing past -you? - -Mr. CROY. I talked to Lieutenant McCoy about it. I don't know whether -Mike Nicholson and Merrell were there at that particular time or not. I -don't know whether they overheard what we were talking about or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon at that time make any request -that people write reports about what they had seen? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the regular officers, these other -people who had been down in the basement, were being asked to make -reports? - -Mr. CROY. No; I didn't know they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you expect that you would be asked to make a report of -what happened in the basement? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You expected that while you were sitting up there in the -office? - -Mr. CROY. I had a pretty good hunch they would. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which -we have marked Exhibit 5052, which is a copy of a letter that you -prepared for Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, was that prepared -down in the police department, or was that prepared at one of your -business offices? - -Mr. CROY. That was prepared at the Dallas Police Academy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? - -Mr. CROY. On Shorecrest back of the northwest substation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that prepared by hand? - -Mr. CROY. Yes, it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you responsible for getting the typing done? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that report over to? - -Mr. CROY. Captain Solomon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then was it his responsibility to get the typing done? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just turned it in. What he did with it, I -don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it eventually come back to you? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The typed copy never came back to you? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen a copy of that statement since you signed it? - -Mr. CROY. Just a while ago. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that the statement -that you signed is a complete and accurate copy of the statement that -you prepared in your own hand in the police department? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what day it was, the day you prepared that -statement? - -Mr. CROY. The following Tuesday night. I don't know what date it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mr. Croy, why didn't you mention in this report, -dated November 26, your seeing this man you believe to be Ruby? - -Mr. CROY. Why didn't I mention that in there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CROY. Because at that time Captain Solomon told me that there would -be another report made and I would have to go downtown to the city hall -before a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the -time being, and put this in this other affidavit that you have, that -this right here was just basically to find out where we were in the -city hall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then when you prepared this other statement on December 1, -who called you and how did you come to go before Notary Public A. L. -Curtis? - -Mr. CROY. He is a lieutenant. After I signed it, I took it there to be -notarized by him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, how did you happen to--was this done in the -police department? - -Mr. CROY. Yes, it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to the police department that day? - -Mr. CROY. They called me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called you? - -Mr. CROY. Captain Arnett. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Captain Arnett down at the police department? - -Mr. CROY. Yes, I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with him before this statement was drawn up? - -Mr. CROY. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to before the statement was drawn up? - -Mr. CROY. Lieutenant Revill. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lieutenant Revill have any information before him -about this, about your having seen Ruby? Did Lieutenant Revill have any -information before him about your having seen Ruby go into the, brush -by you? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't have any information to that effect? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be called down there? - -Mr. CROY. Because of my position in the basement where I was standing -when he shot Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did Captain Solomon say to you when -you told what you had seen to Revill? Did Revill indicate that he had -heard about this before, about your having been a witness to this? - -Mr. CROY. Not that I recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; Lieutenant, I think his name is Cornwall, he was present. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did either of them indicate surprise by having seen this? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You got the impression from the way they spoke, or -any impression from the way they spoke, that they had heard this -information before? - -Mr. CROY. Well, they didn't act surprised. They didn't act like they -didn't know about it. It kind of tied in with the other reports that -they had gotten, I presume, from the way they acted. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was the general attitude on their part in the -taking of these statements. Did you feel that there was some, Cornwall -and Revill were concerned about this situation? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe their general attitude in this -interview? - -Mr. CROY. They were very interested. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you tell me more about that? - -Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to -get that up. That is how interested they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours? - -Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 -hours each day. That is pretty interesting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Croy, I take it that you actually talked to them on -November, the last day of November was the first time you talked to -them, and then you signed this on the first day of December? - -Mr. CROY. What it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it -up. Then the next day I went back down there and they re-read it to me -and went over and over and over and over the same thing over and over -again. And then I took it into Lieutenant Curtis and signed it and had -it notarized. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that examination the way you and I have been going -back and forth here? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of drafts to this statement? You say -it took you 2 days to draw this up. Had you written a number? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write something first? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they take notes as you talked with them? - -Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked -everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back -over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next -day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they critical of you in any way for not having -ejected Ruby the first time that you saw him in the basement? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to them at that time that you didn't know -who he was when you first saw him? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; I didn't know who he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw this man, did you believe that he was a -newspaper reporter? - -Mr. CROY. I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell that to Lieutenant Revill and Captain -Cornwall? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Ruby location at the time Croy -saw him moving toward Oswald." Is that a fair description of what the -hieroglyphics on here mean? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, -Exhibit 5054," and what I have marked on is the chart upon which you -made a certain mark while you described to me what happened when you -saw a man you believed to be Ruby run toward Oswald. - -Now, let me ask you to sign that, if you believe that is an accurate -copy of the real McCoy. Would you date it also? - -Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any other information that you could -provide the Commission of any significance? - -Mr. CROY. None other than what we have talked about right here. - -(Statement to witness by court reporter.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell me about your conversation that you had -with our court stenographer here prior to coming in here, about Tippit? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, it was at the scene over where Officer Tippit was killed, -at the scene. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the scene when Tippit was there? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Unassigned? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are nodding your head? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed? - -Mr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you on reserve duty that day? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the -1800 or 1900 block of Main Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a patrol car? - -Mr. CROY. No; I was on foot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform? - -Mr. CROY. In uniform. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot? - -Mr. CROY. Sitting in my car at the city hall. I would guess, I don't -know, because I didn't know he was shot until, I guess, several minutes -after it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where you were located when you heard he was shot? - -Mr. CROY. No. I was on Main Street trying to go home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were driving your car down Main Street? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About where were you on Main Street? - -Mr. CROY. Griffin. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Griffin Street? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that President Kennedy had -been shot? - -Mr. CROY. I didn't do anything. I was right in the middle of the street -with my car hemmed in from both sides. I couldn't go anywhere. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As soon as you got unhemmed, what did you do? - -Mr. CROY. I went by the courthouse there and there were several -officers standing there, and I asked if they needed any help. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive your car to the courthouse? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which courthouse? - -Mr. CROY. There was only one courthouse. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a county courthouse? - -Mr. CROY. There is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Federal courthouse, also, but this is the one -right there by the plaza and near the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. CROY. The old red courthouse. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On Houston Street? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the corner of Houston and Main? - -Mr. CROY. Houston and Main and Elm. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you heard that President Kennedy was shot -did you arrive there? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, I guess it took me at least 20 minutes to drive those few -blocks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you say it was when you arrived at the -courthouse? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see when you arrived there? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, there was some officers standing on the corner, I don't -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you inquire of somebody there if you could be of -assistance? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whom did you inquire of? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. They were just standing on the corner, and I -asked if I could be of any assistance. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, what did you do? - -Mr. CROY. I proceeded on home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which way did you drive home? - -Mr. CROY. Out Thornton to Colorado, and Colorado to--I can't think of -the street. It was Marsalis. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that---- - -Mr. CROY. Or Zangs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Thornton to Zangs? - -Mr. CROY. Thornton to Colorado to Zangs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then out Zangs and in a westerly direction? - -Mr. CROY. No. That is when I heard the call on Tippit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at the corner of Zangs and Colorado? - -Mr. CROY. When the call came out on Tippit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. CROY. I proceeded to the location where Tippit was shot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? - -Mr. CROY. I think it was in the 400 block of East 10th, I believe it -was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what street intersection that was? - -Mr. CROY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe that area out there? - -Mr. CROY. Just residential. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there---- - -Mr. CROY. Where Tippit was killed, you mean? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you went to where Tippit was? - -Mr. CROY. Well, the street where he was killed was a residential area. -The street immediately south of that, Jefferson, is business. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, I am just referring to the street you found -him on. When you got there, was Tippit's car there? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tippit there? - -Mr. CROY. They were loading him in the ambulance. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other officers on the scene? - -Mr. CROY. None that I saw. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got there? - -Mr. CROY. Got me a witness. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get ahold of? - -Mr. CROY. It was a woman standing across the street from me. I don't -recall her name. She gave me her name at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you? - -Mr. CROY. She told me that she saw Tippit get out of the car, and I -don't recall, I think she said he stepped back a couple of foot and -shot him and then ran. She was pretty hysterical at that particular -time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you where she first saw Oswald? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. There was, as I -recall, there was 2 people who saw it. No; 3. A man in a, taxicab -driver. However, she was the main eyewitness, as far as I could make -out. She saw the actual shooting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with her? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, a good 5 or 10 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other officers there with you when you were -talking with her? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; and no. I talked to her, and then they talked to her, -and then I talked to her, and just after I located a witness, the squad -did get there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This conversation all took place near the scene of the -Tippit killing? - -Mr. CROY. Leaning up against his car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you and the other officers talked with her, did -she tell you where she was that she first saw Oswald? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. She was pretty -hysterical and not much that she said made too much sense. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was she saying? - -Mr. CROY. She talked very incoherent at that particular time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What information were you able to get out of her at that -time? - -Mr. CROY. The only information I could get out of her was the -description of what Oswald had on, and him shooting him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you at that time that he had on? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he had on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall what it was. She just gave a description there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you file any report of your activities this day? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of the other officers who were -there with you when you were interviewing this woman? - -Mr. CROY. No; I know them on sight. They all work in Oak Cliff and I -don't know the names. I just know when I see them driving down the -street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the taxi driver? - -Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. I talked to the taxi driver. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was? - -Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective -agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun -and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that -had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone -out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun -and attempted to give chase or something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness? - -Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness? - -Mr. CROY. As far as I know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to the taxicab driver? - -Mr. CROY. No; I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, -and I turned him over to them and they questioned him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the third eyewitness that you say you talked -with there? - -Mr. CROY. I believe it was a man that was standing there in the yard. -He said he saw Oswald just walk up the street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction did he say? - -Mr. CROY. He didn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But he saw Oswald walking some blocks to where he got to -before he got to Tippit's car? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you that he saw Oswald do walking up the -street? - -Mr. CROY. He just said he saw him walking up the street, and this other -lady said that, I believe it was, that Tippit had stopped him and -called him over to the car, and he came around to the driver's side, -because Tippit was by himself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Oswald came around? - -Mr. CROY. To the driver's side of the car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the lady that said that? - -Mr. CROY. The lady said that, and she said, I think she said, he stuck -his head in the car and they talked, and he stepped back a couple or -3 feet, and Tippit opened the door to get out, and when he got out, -Oswald pulled the pistol out and shot him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a lady? The man or the lady that said this? - -Mr. CROY. The lady. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did the man who was walking, who saw Oswald -walking up the street, tell you? - -Mr. CROY. He just said he saw him walking up the street just prior to -the shooting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say he saw him arrive at the car? - -Mr. CROY. No; I turned him over to some other officers and they talked -to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to determine from them what direction he saw -Oswald walking? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall this man's name? - -Mr. CROY. No; I found the witness and took him to the other officers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the Tippit--how long did you remain at the -scene of the Tippit killing? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, -something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go? - -Mr. CROY. Home. I went to eat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, at some restaurant or something? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain home the rest of the day? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to the police department on the---- - -Mr. CROY. Next day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Next day? - -Mr. CROY. I believe it was the next day. No; that was the 22d. -Saturday, I didn't go to the police department that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the scene of the Tippit killing, did you -inquire there as to whether or not you could be of any assistance? - -Mr. CROY. Well, when I left, I asked them if they thought they needed -me any longer, and they said, "No," so I left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you been interviewed by an FBI agent or any -agent of the Federal Government with respect to what you have just told -us here? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Dallas -Police Department with respect to what you have told us here? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the--how many police officers came out to the -scene of the Tippit killing while you were there? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. There was a slew of them. That would be hard to -say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any officers there that you knew? - -Mr. CROY. There were several officers there that I knew. I don't know -their names. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any officers there that you knew? - -Mr. CROY. I am sure there is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know them? - -Mr. CROY. The same way I know them, just by sight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have anything else of value that you know you -could contribute to the Commission? - -Mr. CROY. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the -street? - -Mr. CROY. I don't recall. I think she lived across the street. She was -standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have the impression that she lived across the -street, in a house across the street? - -Mr. CROY. I believe she did. I am not sure either, or it was in the -neighborhood and she was there in the yard. She was across the street -when it happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard? - -Mr. CROY. Or something. She was standing in the yard doing something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first thing you indicated was, she had been -watering her yard? Apparently that was something that stuck with you -from, of course, talking with her? - -Mr. CROY. I don't remember what she said she was doing. She was doing -something in the yard, and I presume that is where she lived was across -the street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go to the theatre where -Oswald was apprehended? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or go near there? - -Mr. CROY. I went by it, yes; within a block of it on the way home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Oswald been apprehended by the time you got there? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that? - -Mr. CROY. They were on their way up there. There had been a report that -he had gone into the Texas Theatre. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening to your police radio? - -Mr. CROY. No. I was standing at the scene, and there had been several -reports. One, that he, of course, they said that the killer did go into -a church, which was in sight of where they were at. And another report, -that he had gone into the library over on Jefferson. And they had all, -most of the officers except maybe one or two had left the scene where -Tippit was killed and gone to the spot. - -And as I got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into -the Texas Theatre, a man fitting Oswald's description had ran into the -Texas Theatre. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was about the time you got into the automobile? - -Mr. CROY. Just as I was fixing to leave. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your police radio on in your car? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So you drove over there by the--near the theatre? - -Mr. CROY. Well, I drove on up 10th Street. I believe it was 10th -Street. On up to Zangs, and when I got to Zangs, took a left, and at -the end of Zangs, at the corner of Zangs and Jefferson, it is just a -block away, I could see them rushing out to the front and the back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as you saw them rushing out? - -Mr. CROY. They had more help than they needed, so I went on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to listen to your police radio? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything more over the radio about what -happened? - -Mr. CROY. No. I only had channel 1 on my radio. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How far a drive is it from the Texas Theatre to where you -live? - -Mr. CROY. About 3 miles. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long does it take to drive that distance? - -Mr. CROY. About 10 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas -Theatre from your automobile? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know they were going into the, men were -rushing into the theatre just as you went by? - -Mr. CROY. There were three cars in the back and about three in the -front, and there wasn't nobody in them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove right by the front of the theatre? - -Mr. CROY. I drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, -and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, -parking lots. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many cars could you see there? - -Mr. CROY. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or -three in the front, plus another on the way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the -front or the back of the theatre? - -Mr. CROY. It didn't go by either one of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which street was that? - -Mr. CROY. Zangs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many blocks is it from the theatre? - -Mr. CROY. One. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What street is the theatre on? - -Mr. CROY. Jefferson. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What street does it back on to? - -Mr. CROY. In backs into an alley. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the alley? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would you say that Jefferson or the Texas -Theatre is from Zangs? - -Mr. CROY. I don't know. I would say not a very long block. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were driving up Zangs, I take it you were -driving away from town? - -Mr. CROY. South. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. South on Zangs at Jefferson? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue south? - -Mr. CROY. I continued south. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you proceed to your home from there? - -Mr. CROY. Well, I didn't go home. I went to eat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to eat? - -Mr. CROY. Austin Barbecue. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? - -Mr. CROY. On the corner of Hampton and Illinois. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get to Hampton and Illinois? - -Mr. CROY. From Zangs to Illinois. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what direction? - -Mr. CROY. West. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that left or right? - -Mr. CROY. It is a right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then how far up Illinois to Hampton? - -Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a long ways. It is a good stretch. Zangs -Place is about the 300 or 400 block and Illinois intersects at about -the 2100 or 2200 block. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How far driving was it from the Texas Theatre to this -place that you had dinner or lunch? - -Mr. CROY. Well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so -it is 3 miles from there, so about 2-1/2 miles. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house? - -Mr. CROY. Straight up Illinois, west on Illinois. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is your house on Illinois? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner? - -Mr. CROY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there that you knew? - -Mr. CROY. My wife. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was your appointment? - -Mr. CROY. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone -right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, -and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she -was a little mad. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her? - -Mr. CROY. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She -was in her car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she -when you saw each other? - -Mr. CROY. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if -anybody needed me there, and they said, "No," and here she comes and I -said, "Do you want to get something to eat?" And she said, "Yes." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You said you would be right there? - -Mr. CROY. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at -my mother's and dad's. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what -did you do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to -Tippit's place on the way home? - -Mr. CROY. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my -mother's and dad's house at that particular time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's -and dad's house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that -particular time? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your mother's and dad's house from the place -that you had dinner? - -Mr. CROY. It is quite a ways. It is about 3 or 4 miles. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go from where you had your lunch or dinner to -your mother's and dad's house? - -Mr. CROY. Straight out north on Hampton. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. North on Hampton? - -Mr. CROY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were living in your mother's and dad's house at that -time? - -Mr. CROY. I slept there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was your wife living there also? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated from her? - -Mr. CROY. No. - -(To reporter: Don't put that in there.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated at that time? - -Mr. CROY. At that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you think that you could tell -as a result of your experiences on the 22d, 23d, or 24th, or any other -time that would be helpful to us, either in the investigation of the -assassination of President Kennedy, or the murder of Jack Ruby. - -Mr. CROY. You mean Oswald? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CROY. None that I know of. That is as well as I can remember it of -what happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILBUR JAY CUTCHSHAW - -The testimony of Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March -26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record again. My name is Burt -Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's -office of the President's Commission on the assassination of President -Kennedy. This Commission was established as a result of an Executive -order that was signed by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, -and a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to that joint -resolution and the Executive order the Commission has prescribed a -set of procedures, and in accordance with this provision I have been -authorized to take your deposition, Mr. Cutchshaw. - -I want to tell you first of all a little bit about the scope of the -investigation. The Commission has been directed by the President to -inquire into and ascertain all the facts that have to do with the -assassination of President Kennedy and with the subsequent murder of -Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate these facts and report back to the -President. - -We don't have any authority here to prosecute any crimes. We are not -investigating for that purpose. The only crime that can be committed -in connection with this investigation is the crime of perjury. We are -here to try to determine the facts, and in order to make sure that -the events that have transpired over the last few months will not -be repeated in the future, if that is possible, and to attempt to -determine whether there is still any danger to our chief officers in -Government and the national security. - -In doing this, we have had hundreds of interviews conducted by -various members of the Federal investigatory agencies, and perhaps -hundreds is an understatement. It may be thousands. We have a stack of -documents over in a corner that would frighten you. It just represents -people who have been talked to by the various Federal Bureaus. Now -we are undertaking to talk to a few other people that we think are -particularly central in terms of having information that would be -useful. - -As to you, Mr. Cutchshaw, we have asked you to come here because we -want to ascertain what you know in particular about the death of -Oswald, and we also, however, want any pertinent facts that you may -have that would bear upon the entire picture. - -You have been asked to appear here as a result of a letter which was -mailed to Chief Curry in the form of a general request from Mr. J. -Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission. -Actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled -to get a personal letter from the Commission, and 3 days before you -testify here. However, the rules do provide that you can waive that -particular letter, or 3-day written notice. Now, the first thing I want -to ask you is if you would like us to send you a letter, or if you -prefer to waive the 3-day notice? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I will waive that notice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, the rules of the Commission provide that you are -entitled to be represented by counsel at any time, and many of the -people do have attorneys here. I want you to feel that we welcome your -availing yourself of this opportunity if you want to, but I see that -you are not here with an attorney, and I presume by that fact that -you have decided that you don't want one. But if you do feel that you -would like one, please feel free to indicate right now and we will -certainly---- - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't feel I need one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, let me ask you to raise your right hand and swear -you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give -is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Cutchshaw? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. May 27, 1923. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. 401 Southwest 22d, Grand Prairie, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Police officer, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. A little over 9 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Criminal investigation division, juvenile bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any particular rank in the department? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Detective. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 2-1/2 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you the time before that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Radio patrol. Mostly working in the West Dallas area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work in the downtown Dallas area? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I worked downtown there for about a month. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before the time he shot Lee Oswald? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I had seen him one time before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the Carousel on Commerce. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see him? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I went up in his place one night. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before he shot Oswald? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That's been about 2-1/2 years ago, the first time I saw -him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a -copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agents Mabey and Hughes, -purporting to report an interview they had with you on December 2, -1963. I am marking this "Dallas, Tex., Detective Cutchshaw, 3-26-64, -Exhibit 5042." I have marked for identification the interview report of -December 2, 1963, by Mabey and Hughes as Exhibit 5042. I have marked -what purports to be a copy of a letter signed by you to Chief Curry, -dated November 24, 1963, as Exhibit 5043. And I have marked as Exhibit -5044 a copy of a report by FBI Agent James W. Bookhout, relating to an -interview that Bookhout had with you on November 24th. That is Exhibit -5044. Now, have you had a chance to look over these two interview -reports and a copy of your letter? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections that you would want -to make in those documents? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see any that I would want to make. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay; now, you were up in the juvenile bureau all of -Sunday morning until you were called down in the basement; is that -right? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were up there, do you -recall who was on duty? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. Officer Goolsby was working the desk, -and Lowery and myself and Harrison and Miller, I believe it was, and, -oh, yes, June McLine, a policewoman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall when it was that you first had any -information that Lee Oswald might be moved to the county jail? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I can remember is that Chief Stevenson came up and -told us he wanted us all to stay up in the office, and at that time it -was about 9 o'clock, I believe it was. And he said that they had to -form a security when they moved Oswald, but as far as knowing exactly -what time, I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it? What makes you say that he came up -about 9 o'clock? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember that he said we had to be there -between, I believe it was, 9 and 10, and so I looked out the window at -the clock, but I didn't have my watch, because I had these trousers -that didn't have a watch pocket, because I have a pocket watch. I don't -have a wrist watch, and out the window we have a sign that has a big -clock. I said I better call the boys from the cafe. - -They had already left to go to the cafe, but it was about 9 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were they? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Blackie Harrison and L. D. Miller. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you say that to? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe I asked Captain Martin if he wanted me to call -and tell them to come back. He said tell them to get back as soon as -possible. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call over at the cafe? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked somebody what the number was, and I think it was -a man on the desk, but it was Goolsby was the one that made the call. I -am not sure as to whether he did or not. I know somebody had to look it -up in the book what the number was over there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall whether you made the telephone call or -Goolsby made it? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I sure don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where it was you called? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I know where they went. I say I think I do. The Deluxe -Diner, right across from the library on Commerce. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because that is where they said they were going. That is -what we call the "greasy spoon." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Miller and Harrison about their -testimony before the Commission? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty yesterday? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What duty hours are you working now? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I work from 8 to 4. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What are your days off? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened? Do you recall Harrison and -Miller coming back from the diner? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I know the next time I saw them they were down in -the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anybody coming in and directing you to go -down to the basement? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain O. A. Jones. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that was? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I believe that was just before 11 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time at 11 o'clock? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know we weren't down there too long, and when -they brought Oswald and he was shot, I think it was a little after 11, -or 20 minutes after, something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that -time? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was Detective Goolsby, R. L. Lowery, and -myself, and I don't remember who else went down. I know we three were -together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened when you got out of the -elevator? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right -in front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. They -had an officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said -went down with you? Goolsby, Lowery, and who else? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is the only two, is Officer Goolsby, Lowery, and -myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where Miller and Harrison were? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't. I did see them after that. He came in -there, and I asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back -from the cafe he went down in the basement, which is our locker room, -to get some cigars. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the lobby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office, -what happened? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones came in and told us that we were going -to have to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are -authorized, which was the police officers and the news media. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about what you should do when -Oswald came down? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He said to try to keep everybody back and not to let -them get too close to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed along one of the walls; didn't you? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was at the door where the doors come out of the jail -lobby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and -indicate on the diagram where. Would it be easier to turn it around the -other way? Indicate where you were. [Diagram marked Cutchshaw Exhibit -No. 5046.] - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back -inside the jail, and I was right here at this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was standing right here by the side of the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, did you remain there the entire time? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; until after the shooting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did Captain Jones tell you to do at that -particular time? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones told us what he wanted done, for us to -line up the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers -lined over here, so I just got at that position. He didn't put us at -any particular position. So I was over here. And there was a bunch of -newsmen in this area in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the jail office? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the jail office. And I asked him about those and he -said he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office -except the officers here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is behind the desk? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you cleared out those news people in the jail office, -did anybody help you? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; Captain Jones was there. He was right there, and -he came in with me, and I believe it was a, I think it was Lieutenant -Wiggins that was on duty that morning. I'm not too sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspaper people would you estimate were in there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would say there were about seven or eight in there at -the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where those people went? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; they came out this door and to the left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The door where you stationed yourself? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all go out and turn left as they got out? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They all turned to the left, and two of them, I don't -know who they were, I would recognize them if I say them, came into -this area here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Came behind the double doors? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Came back in from the double doors in front of the jail -office window. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" on the map where the people were? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I wouldn't know the exact position where they went, but -two of them went in here, and one came back out here and stood for a -minute. I will put it right in front of this window right here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. One of them went in there and stayed, and the other one -went in and came out? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; he came out and was standing out here for a -moment. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he go? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We made him get back of the hallway, and I think I was -right about in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "N" where that newspaper man was. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the remainder of the newspaper people go? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They went back into this area along there. They got a -pipe rail here, and they had officers along, and somewhere in behind -these offices along that rail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place on the map where you recall seeing TV -cameras? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Put an "N" or what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you draw sort of a rectangle of some sort and -write TV. Make it big enough. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. [Complies.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any other TV cameras in the basement, that -you recall? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not right at first, but another one did come in through -the door and went down to this position here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark this spot that it went to? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The last position I saw it in was about in here -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald came down did that TV camera come -out through the double doors and go down to the spot that you have -marked in the entrance to the garage? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Oh, about 2 or 3 minutes. Just prior to when they were -coming down. It is when they were coming down. It is when they came -through the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at any time while you were down there, was there a TV -camera along the wall that Lowery was on? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This one right here that came through here, and Lowery -was standing right here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "L" where Lowery was. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And they came through right down by him, down this ramp -here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever a TV camera stationed there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not that I remember; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if the TV camera which you saw go out into -the garage area, came down through the public elevators, or through the -jail office elevators? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't see them come down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come through the double doors? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He came through the double doors here, and the service -elevator, public elevators over here. They came through here. As far as -where they came in, they didn't come out of the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you clear the newspaper people out of the jail office -before or after this TV camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It was before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After the TV camera came down, where did you station -yourself? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was right back in this door, the same place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Still there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you look out towards the TV cameras from time to time? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yeah. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what you saw as you looked out towards the TV -cameras? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Mostly saw lights. I mostly saw lights were shining in -my eyes here, but there was a line of men along here which consisted of -officers and news media. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know when they were trying to back it down, but -it couldn't get through. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember Chief Batchelor being up there by the -armored car? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see the armored car from where I was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in this position that you have -marked with an "X" after the TV camera came through? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean how long did I stay there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Until after the officers and Lee Oswald came through. -Then I stepped up maybe one or two steps behind them, and that is when -the shot rang out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of the officers here in this area along -the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think there was one standing right here, and one -right here. But just who they were, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of them up further across the Main Street -ramp? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember seeing any. I know there was a line of -men along there, and who they were, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From where you were standing, you could see the TV camera -going in that direction, couldn't you? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I saw the TV camera over here; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see from where you were standing any people in -front of that TV camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; not that I can remember except there were people -right in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate where you saw people congregating over -in the area of the entrance to the garage? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I think there were some--I will put a couple of -"X's"--I think there were some along there, and there were people right -along here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you able to see how many lines of people there -were along across the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Rio Pierce, the same Pierce car go up the ramp? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it break through the line of newsmen? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Did I see a car break through the line? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I know, it went up, or when it cleared the way, I -know the car did go up, because I don't know how many people---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't actually see the car reach the top of the ramp? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you lose sight of that car? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When it went up past this line here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On November 24, the day that Oswald was shot, you prepared -a letter to Chief Curry, and you were also interviewed by Agent -Bookhout. Do you remember those two things? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether you prepared your letter to Curry -before or after you were interviewed by Bookhout? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It was before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after the shooting, did you go back into -the jail office? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You followed Ruby and Oswald back in there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I helped carry--I had hold of Ruby's left hand up -as far as the jail office door. And all of us couldn't get through at -the same time, so I released, because there was another man right in -front at his shoulder, so I let go so they could get in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think I was, because I was there at the door -keeping other people out--after I got in. Let me put it like this: -After we got Ruby on the inside, I slammed the door, too. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you left the jail office? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; there was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Ruby shot Oswald would you say that was? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine it was only a couple of minutes. Just a very -short time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I notified this TV camera officer here with two men, -I went over to talk to them, because they were trying to push it up -this ramp by theirselves, and I do remember seeing three men with that -camera at one time, and there was only two men at the time trying to -push it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what TV camera that was? What station? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Channel 5 on the camera box. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you subsequently learned that it was a Dallas channel -5? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think so, that channel 5. I believe it is a Fort -Worth station. It is one of them, got two of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What channel is channel 5? What station? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe that is a Fort Worth station. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What are the call letters on that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it in your statement anywhere? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know. I don't think I know the call letters. -Just channel 5 is the only thing I saw on the box. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men were over at the camera at that time? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I was standing at the door, I had it closed, and I -looked out and I saw the camera here with only two men. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go over to the camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember three men being with the camera in -this area here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have reason to think one of them might be -Ruby? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't at the time, because I figured if there were -three men pushing it out, why wouldn't there be three men trying to get -it up the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see get it up the ramp? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Two. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you detain those men? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody assist? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Officer Lowery. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not at the time, because we finally got Lieutenant Swain -over there and he talked with them awhile, and at that time when he and -Lowery had them, or Swain talked to them, we got their names where we -would be able to ask information of them later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the first one of the two of you to arrive at the -TV cameras? Was it Lowery or was he there when you came up? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later did Lowery come up? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I got over there and this one, I don't know what -the names are, I think this one that had the coat on was Alexander, as -well as I can remember. He was kind of nervous and shaky. So, then I -called Lowery to help me out, because I didn't know whether they might -be involved or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where Lowery was standing when you called -him over? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he was right over in this area. I am not too -sure, but I think he was, because I could see him from here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The point you are talking about is in front of the double -doors? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Between the double doors and the driveway close to, I -call that the north wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time Lowery arrived, was Lieutenant Swain -there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much longer would you say after Lowery arrived did -Lieutenant Swain? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the process after I got Lowery over there and -we were holding them, we tried to stop two or three officers prior to -that, supervisory officers, and they were in a hustle trying to get -around, and they finally got Swain, and I think it was maybe 5 or 6 -minutes after Lowery got there, and they got Lieutenant Swain to come -over and talk to them. Not to talk, but for us to have a conference as -to what to do about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you talk with Lieutenant Swain? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I imagine it was about 3 or 4 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Lowery turn the two TV men over to Lieutenant -Swain? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I got the names and everything, Lowery started -getting their names and I left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lowery take the names down in a notebook? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He took the names and he turned them over to the -homicide office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You left, and where did you go? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I came back upstairs to my office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the third floor? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Room 314. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I waited up there until further information. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you wait? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know. We was up there for quite a while. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you eventually go out to Love Field? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you went out to Love Field, did you prepare a -report of what had happened down in the basement? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; that is where I went, I am sorry. I am getting -confused, but when I left the basement, I talked to somebody downstairs -about it, and I think that was Captain Jones, and he said, "Well, go -upstairs and write out your report, whatever you know, or what you -saw." And I went to the homicide bureau first and made out my report in -written letter form that you have, and gave it to the homicide office -up there, and then I went to my room, which is room 314. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so at the time you prepared this letter dated--let me -ask you this: Let me hand you Exhibit 5043. Is that a true and accurate -copy of a report that you wrote out in the homicide bureau? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Let me take a minute here [reading report]. You mean -word for word? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: I notice you pulled out a set of -papers from your pocket. You have a copy of the actual report you -prepared? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I have a copy which is one of the Xerox copies of -the report which I wrote. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we made a photocopy of that? And retain -it for our files? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't. In fact, it looks like--that is my -handwritten copy. I don't know whether you can read it or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think I can make out your handwriting here. I am -referring now to the copy of the handwritten report which Detective -Crenshaw prepared on November 24, 1963, in the homicide bureau office. -Approximately how long after Ruby shot Oswald? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 20 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been longer than that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It could have been longer, but it was approximately 20 -minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as long as 2 hours later? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was that long. It might have been the -way things were, but I remember when I left the basement, I did go -upstairs, and I did go to the homicide office and that is where I wrote -the report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up to homicide because somebody in the basement -told you to go up and write a report on what you saw? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones. I know he told me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And there was a standing order to put it down in writing -what you saw and what you did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after everything had been quieted down in the -basement? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; well, now, I am losing track of my time again. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is important that we try to straighten this out. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Let's see. I will have to retract some of them. I don't -want to state it that way. But so far as what I have said, it is true, -but as far as my time element is concerned, when I left, I had to go up -to the first floor, and I kept seeing people coming in and out. - -We have three entrances. The Harwood, Main and Commerce, and I think -there was four of us which were taking names of people coming in and -leaving, and checking their identification. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which entrance was it you were at? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was checking the Commerce side. I was inside the -building close to the information desk, but checking those coming in -and leaving the Commerce Street entrance to the building. So it might -have been about 2 hours after, because I know I was down there for -quite awhile. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were at the Commerce Street side, were you at the -door going out of the building? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I was in the hallway close to the entrance of the -hallway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you said before, closer to the information desk? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Closer to the information where the hallway is in front -of the desk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the first floor and not in the basement? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. It is on the first floor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was up there with you taking names? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Lowery there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Harrison there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't think he was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody from the juvenile bureau there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was the only one from the juvenile. There was about -four or five officers, two at the desk and one at the Harwood side -there, checking those, and one on the other side of the desk checking -those coming from the Main Street, and I was on Commerce Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of the people up there what you had seen? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; not that I can remember. You mean what I saw down in -the basement? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; about your suspicion about those guys pushing the -camera. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you taken off that duty by anybody? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Lieutenant came down and told us it was all right -to secure, that everything was settled down, and that is when I left -and went up to the homicide office and wrote my report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the instructions to write a report on -this? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you got stationed? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Before I had to go upstairs: yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time Captain Jones gave you those instructions -down there, had the basement sort of quieted down? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give instructions to a bunch of you standing in a -group, or were you all spread out, or how did it happen? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think there were two or three of us there, and I asked -about it, and told him, and he said, "The information is good," but he -said, "Put it down in writing so you will be able to refer to it later." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was there at the time? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember who all was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, now, on the basis of what you told us, what would be -your best estimate of how long it was after you saw this cameraman come -through that you wrote this report? And when I say on the basis of what -you said, I don't mean that I want you to conform to anything you have -said, but taking into account all the discussion we have had now, what -is your best judgment as to how long it was? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About an hour and a half or 2 hours. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you took the names of the two men you found at -the camera---- - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't take the names. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery took those names? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How were those two men dressed? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. One of them had on a long black coat. One of these kind -of, like a raincoat--topcoat combination deal, and the other one, best -I can remember, had on a greenish shirt and khaki trousers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had those two men, as you recall, where had they -been on the camera as it was being pushed through? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean where? How were they positioned there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the man in the black coat? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The man in the black coat was on the left side of the -camera, and the other one was on the right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There was one man in between? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. As far as I can remember, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss that man with those people that you and -Lowery confronted? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean the two men at the camera? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask them where the third man was? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked them where the third man was who had helped them -with the camera, and they told me they didn't know there was any third -man there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask those men where that camera had been before it -came through the double doors? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you subsequently learned where it was before it came -through the double doors? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. I heard it had been up on the third floor, and that -they were bringing it down because it had the telescopic lens, and they -were wanting to get a shot taking Oswald up the ramp to the armored car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn the names of the two men that you talked -with out at that camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I have not since then, no. At the time, I thought one -was named John Alexander, but I don't know what their names are. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Lowery saw you questioning those two men, do you -recall if Lowery at that time remembered that there had been a third -man on the camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, when I called him over there, I told him what I -had, and he said, "Yes, he remembered a third man being with them." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But Lowery came over at your beckoning? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery did not come over spontaneously? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived up in the homicide office to write your -report, who was there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lowery was there, and there was some officers from the -homicide bureau there, and Captain Fritz was in his office, and I think -there was a Secret Service man there with him. I don't know what his -name was. I was told it was a Secret Service man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know L. D. Montgomery? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean the detective? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he was there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't recall whether he was or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Blackie Harrison there when you arrived? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think he was there in the office. I believe he was in -there, and there was Lieutenant Wallace. I just don't remember who else -was there. I know the place was full. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was there? Let me ask you--I want to ask you here -to speculate a little bit but at the same time to give me an honest -opinion on this. - -You have had a chance to talk with many police officers, I presume, -about all the events that took place, and you know of all the rumors -that there have been about the man walking down the Main Street ramp -and so forth and so on. - -Do you still feel--can you tell me whether or not you still have a -belief that Jack Ruby might have been the man who pushed that camera -in, in your own mind? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in my own mind, I can tell you this: I did see the -third man with the camera, and it struck me so strange that only two -men--there were three men, but still only two were trying to push the -camera, and that is the reason I went out and contacted the two men. - -Let me tell you, I did learn from Lieutenant Wallace--that is one of -the investigators on the thing for the city--one of you might have -talked with him--that you contacted the crews on this camera--and -he did say that a man that was with these cameras over here that at -about--see, there is a slight decline in this area right here where -Lowery was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a decline where Lowery was standing? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the time that that camera was being pushed, a man -came from this crew over here and helped them push it on down. If there -is where I got the three men, but I do remember seeing three men on -that camera. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And, in other words, somebody came over to the two-man -crew? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Off one of these cameras here. Channel 5 already had -one camera down here, but they said--that is where I got the reason -for this--they brought the wide angle lens and they wanted one of the -telescopic lens to get a shot of him walking up the ramp to where the -armored car was. But still I did see three men pushing that camera -through here. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's put this on the record. Now, as I understand the -story that you heard was that a man came from the two TV cameras, from -the channel 5 camera that was already stationed behind a railing? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And came off and assisted two other men who had already -been pushing that camera through the door, and that man reached the -camera at approximately when that camera was near Lowery? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is what I was told, what I heard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if that were true, do you think as you look at--out -in the area toward where Lowery and that camera would have been at that -point, that you would have seen a man walk over there to that camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. If I had been looking there at that time, I could have; -yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what I am getting at is, the area that was -in front of those two stationery TV cameras was clear, wasn't it? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because the cameras and lights were right here. And -they had lights up here shining in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, the camera came this route here through these -swinging doors. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it come through the swinging doors? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I saw it coming through the swinging doors because -these doors came open and they come through, and I was standing right -here. I wasn't right exactly at the corner door, but I was in the -doorway at the time. - -I held one of the doors open when they came through, and the camera -came right on down here and was parked in this area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on the chart that it was pushed through -the swinging doors where Lowery was stationed and over to the point -that you have marked it as the final resting place in the garage -entrance? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is where I saw it; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have also been told that this same channel 5 had some -other new camera behind the railing? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in front of that railing, was that area in front of -the railing clear of people at the time that that camera came through? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it was exactly clear or not. -I know that right after the camera came through, that these men down -here started hollering to everyone to clear back. Evidently some were -standing in front of the cameras down there and that is why they had to -clear them out. - -So far as I remember, most of the people were standing here, and in -front of the door, and on the south side of the hallway into the ramp, -and on the north side of the hallway, and into the ramp there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this guy you say had on a dark suit? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if he had on a hat? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do not, because the man I saw was bent over pushing -like that [indicating]. All three is what struck me strange that all -three of them, not one was putting all his weight, but all three were -bent over pushing like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you ran for those TV cameras after the -shooting, did you know that Jack Ruby had been the person who shot -Oswald? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I knew that. I helped carry the man through the jail -office doors to the jail office, and while I was there standing guard -on the doors, someone said who is he, and a guy said it is Jack Ruby. -And I was standing in the door when a doctor came in right after we -got Ruby in there and they brought Oswald, and immediately thereafter, -someone was banging on the door trying to get through, and I tried to -push him out, and he said he was a doctor, and that he had been called. -And I run my hand down his side and he had the stethoscope in his right -hand coat pocket, and I let him through. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you ran to the TV cameras, you knew that -Ruby was the man? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I knew that Ruby was the man. They said he was Jack -Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you had seen the third man after it reached, or as -it reached Lowery, do you think you would have seen that man move from -the TV cameras to the channel 5 camera that was stationed behind the -railing? Do you think you would have seen him move from there to the -position of the camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let me put it this way: I didn't just watch this -camera all the way through, because it done past this point, and the -next time I saw it, I remember seeing it when I was looking through the -square glass in the door when I was holding it to, and I saw the two -men push it up here. - -So, I don't know whether I was looking at the camera at the time I was -down here, but I didn't see anyone go around to the camera. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that the TV camera came through the door, the -double doors, you were looking through another glass? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; now at the time it came through the door, this door -was being opened from the inside. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This single door that entered into the jail office opened -inward toward the jail office, and it didn't obstruct your view? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; they came through the swinging door. I was standing -in the doorway and I held this door open. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You held open the swinging doors for them? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; when they came through. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You pulled it back toward yourself? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They were already going past, and I grabbed ahold. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, the swinging doors were between you, your face and -them? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I was standing at the edge of this swinging door -holding it back for them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, you were behind the swinging doors when you were -holding the end of the swinging door, and you were off to the side? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing on part of that door which was -between you and them? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would you say you were from those men at that -point? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 3 feet. Maybe 2, or I could have reached out and -put my hand on one of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see the faces of those men? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The one on the left, the one that had on a black coat, -when he came through, he looked up like that and he was pushing on -through. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you ultimately met over there, you confronted those -men afterward and saw the man in the black coat, was it the same man -that turned up and looked at you? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind about that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I remember his nose real good. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after those men passed you, did you let the doors -swing back, or did you walk back with it, or what did you do? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just turned loose of it. There was another officer -that closed right in behind them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There were other officers that closed in behind the TV -cameramen? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did those officers go? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just stood there. There were some standing in front -of the door at the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't follow them through the door? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. They were already stationed there, and then when -they started pushing through, the doors came open, and the officers -just moved aside. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As that door swung shut, do you recall whether you then -looked back up the hallway from which that camera had come to see if -other people were coming down, or whether you might have looked in -toward the jail office, or whether you continued to watch them go on? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any activity back here in that hallway -immediately after you let go of that swinging door? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, just a little, maybe a minute or two. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Later? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But not immediately thereafter? Do you have any -recollection of seeing anything back there immediately thereafter? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, right after, right after this, the doors came to -here, a man stepped away from the wall over there, the one I told you -previously where one came into the hallway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A newspaperman? A newspaper person? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Stepped away from this area where you have the "N" marked? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he walk to? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He walked out toward the swinging doors and motioned for -somebody to come out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And your attention was attracted to him? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you actually see that man move away? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Who moved away from right here and stepped about -half way from where he was standing up to the swinging doors. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Have you watched the movies of all this? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just seen it one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Are you able to state whether what you are -telling us now is from your own knowledge, or is it confused with -anything you may have seen in the movies? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember when he stepped out, I made him get -back, and I told him to get back up against the wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you were looking in his direction -when he did this, or whether your attention was attracted to him and -then you had to look at him? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I was looking in the hallway in this area here -when he stepped out, and he stepped, there was only about two steps. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say in this area here. You mean you were looking in -the direction of Lowery? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes, in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. She can't write that. I am going to have to explain for -the record. - -Were you looking in the direction of Lowery, or in the direction of the -railing? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the direction of the TV camera which was being -pushed out at this time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That man walked out, and you got out to motion somebody -in, and you pushed him back? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I told him to get back up against the wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point do you believe that if somebody had walked -out from the channel 5 camera that was already in place behind the -railing, are you able to state whether or not you would have seen him -get in position and help push that other camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, that is kind of hard to say, because when I -looked out here and he stepped out there, and I told him to get back, -I don't know whether I would notice anybody at that camera, because -my attention at this time was at the man that stepped away from the -hallway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. However, whatever struck your attention to the general -placement of the people in front of those TV cameras, do you recall -whether there were people in front of the TV cameras at any time before -you saw this other TV camera come out of the hallway? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Whether they were exactly in front of the TV cameras, I -don't know, but I know there was lots of people along this north wall -and in the driveway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not indicating anything that is directly in front -of the TV camera? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, shortly after this camera came through, someone -hollered, "Here they come," or else I think I forget, or "They are -on their way down"--we have lights on the basement showing where the -elevator is coming down, and someone hollered to clear the way for the -cameras--to get out from in front of the cameras--but as far as me -telling how many people were in front of the cameras, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever talked to Lowery about whether he saw some -man come from the channel 5 stationary camera and help push the moving -camera into that space? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, Lowery and I were talking when Lieutenant Wallace -told us--he said, if I remember right, Wallace, he says, "I believe I -think I found out where you got the third man." And we asked him where, -and he said he found out from the crew that a man came from the other -channel 5 camera that was already in the basement and helped them down -this short incline, because the camera was rocking. - -And I said, "I don't remember anybody, but I do remember seeing three -men on the camera." And, Lowery said the same thing, that he did -remember seeing the three men. But I don't remember anybody coming from -here to the camera. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go ahead now, sir. When you were up there filling -out your report in the homicide office--when you talked with these men -that you finally detained after the shooting, the two men that you -detained, did you describe to them the third man that was with them? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you asked them where is the third man and he said -there wasn't, what did they say? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just told me that there wasn't any, that if there -was a third man there, they didn't know about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else standing with you at the time they said -that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe Officer Lowery was there at that time. But -the first thing, I went right out there and got a hold of both of them -and asked them, "Where is the other man that came out with them." And -he said, "There wasn't any other man." And I said, "I know there were -three men with you when you came out." And he said, "If there was one -between us, they don't know nothing about it." And I don't remember -whether Officer Lowery was there, but I don't think he was there, but -we did question them again, and I still think there was a third man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Swain, did he make that denial to Swain? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't really know, because that is when I left and had -to go up to the first floor. Lowery started getting their names and -they talked to Lieutenant Swain and told them what it was, and he said, -"Go ahead and get their names and ask where they are going to be." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it that came up to you and told you that he had -found out, had an explanation for the third man. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lieutenant Wallace. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Sunday, November 24? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine that was maybe a week or two, because through -their investigation they tried to contact everybody that was down -there. It was quite some time. The exact amount of days, I don't know, -but it was quite some time after that he explained it to us. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up to the homicide office, did Lowery fill -out a report? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Harrison fill out a report while you were out there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think he did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you all talk about this when you were up there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I believe we did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were all--as a matter of fact, this was -probably a matter of general interest to everybody up there, don't you -imagine? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You think anybody could have been in that office without -knowing what you guys had seen? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so, because we don't tell everybody up there -in the office. Of course, at the time we wrote out a report, I think -there was me, Lowery, and I believe Harrison did come back and start -writing out his, and I think Lieutenant Wallace, and he said put down -what you saw and what you know only, and that is the way I wrote out my -report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the guys you were talking with about it, so -anybody other than you and Lowery who might have been there could have -heard it and might have told it to somebody else? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Possibly; yes. But we didn't talk a whole lot while we -were writing the report. We just sat down and wrote it out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about after you wrote the report? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. We went back to our office and shot the bull and -gabbed about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And speculated about it? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did other people come in there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about other members of the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Goolsby there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; he was out there quite a bit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anybody else who was in that office after -you had written out your report and were talking about this? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. There was a reporter up there. You mean -so far as officers is concerned, or just anybody? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Give me just the officers first. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe June McLine, and then I believe that covered -all the officers and myself and Harrison and Miller, and Goolsby, and -McLine, and then there were other officers, I know, but I don't know -who all they were. I don't remember. And they had that one little -reporter from up north somewhere. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Yankee reporters? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Like Cleveland, Ohio, maybe? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know where he was from, but I didn't like him -very much. Then there was a French reporter. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A French reporter was up there? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen that French reporter when you were down in -the basement? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so. I'm not going to swear, because there were -so darn many of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen that French reporter there before this? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because he and some other reporters from up North, -they kind of made our office their office, you might say. That was -their base of operation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that French reporter tell you? Did he see that TV -camera come through? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't talk to him about it or ask him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the people who were up there in the office -indicate they had also seen the TV camera come through? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think Goolsby said he saw the camera come through but -he didn't remember anything about who was pushing it or anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you view the TV film with these men coming through? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From your recollection of that TV film, could you see the -third man on the camera pushing it through? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; the only two I could see was just the two that I -gave a description. It was one on the right that had, I think, the -greenish-type shirt, and the one on the left that had the black coat. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to remember that TV film. Did that TV film which you -saw, did that show the camera as it came through the door? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did it show the man looking up at you? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it did or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the camera shot taken from such a position that if -there had been a third man behind the camera, it would have showed up -on the TV picture? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, the camera shot on this one that was coming up on -the door was a straight-on shot, and whether they would show up, I -didn't see any other man. If he had been there, he would be directly -behind the stand. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how far that TV picture of the men coming -out of the swinging doors follows the camera as it proceeds through the -swinging doors? Out past Lowery? Does it show Lowery up on the TV? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it does or not, because at the -time I saw the film, I was just looking at the camera to see whether -I could see anybody behind it or not. The way the picture was on the -film, it shows the camera coming out, and it was passing out of range -of the TV camera that was taking the pictures at the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how soon after Oswald was shot did you view those TV -films? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after Lieutenant Wallace reported to you -that he could solve the problem of the third man? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe it was after. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the film after you talked to Wallace? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in looking at those TV films whether you -show up in the TV film? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On one of the films I do, but whether it was on the TV -or one of the camera pictures, I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the films that you watched, do you recall whether -those films show you looking at the men? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Like I say, I don't even remember seeing them. You know, -one showed me, but I think I was looking almost straight out at an -angle from the door where I was standing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In any other films which you have seen, is there depicted -the episode where the newsmen moved out from the position that you have -marked with an "N" on the north wall of the entranceway to between the -jail office and the ramp? Does it show that man coming out and your -motioning him back as you have described? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you these questions because I am trying to get -you to refresh your recollection even more. - -Now, Detective Cutchshaw, we all know that shortly after Ruby shot -Oswald, a certain amount of heat was focused on Blackie Harrison. You -are aware of that, aren't you? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want you to tell me honestly--I think you have -tried to be strictly forthright to me in describing this camera. - -Do you think that your concern about Harrison in any way has affected -what you remembered about this event? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. None whatsoever. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't Harrison indicate shortly after this event that he -was worried about this, because Ruby had come right past him? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't he talk about that by the time you got back to the -juvenile bureau? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether he talked about it; he just -said that he remembered seeing this man come out and this gun come up, -and he described to me, but as far as him saying he was worried about -it, I don't remember that. As far as any reflection on himself---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I was not trying to talk particularly about whether -Blackie saw Jack there a few minutes ago. Honestly, I don't care to -know if that is true, but to me, that is no reflection on him. But it -is very important for us to find out what happened, because if we don't -know what happened, we have to speculate and wonder whether there was -somebody else involved here. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let me tell you: I came down here. A lot of people -say I need a lawyer, but I don't want one because I came down to tell -you the truth and just the way I saw it. I told you what I saw. Of -course, some of my time elements are a little bit this way, but I said -what I saw, and the only thing I did tell you---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me, and this is what is important, what -you feel at this point, what your motivation, unconscious or conscious, -is in this, and I don't expect you to tell me that Blackie thought that -he saw the man or anybody else, but I want to know if you feel that -what you have told me today in such a determined and what appeared to -me forthright fashion, is based, is affected in any way because of the -concern of anybody in the juvenile bureau, about Harrison and Lowery -and Miller and anybody else in the bureau who was down there, and in -particular to have seen Ruby if he came in? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe that if Blackie Harrison had seen Ruby come -in, he would have put him out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, to what extent, I want to know, do you think that -this concern of your affects your story, honestly? - -I could tell this story and honestly believe everything I am telling, -but yet we all know unconsciously our emotions are affected. - -How much are you being affected by that concern of Harrison? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. None of my story or anything I have told you has -been affected in any way for any concern for any one person in the -department. - -I came down here to tell you this, and everything is just the way I saw -it. And as far as concern for any one individual, I don't have any. - -Now, Blackie is a friend of mine, and I have known him for a long time. -I have no concern for him, because I don't think he did anything wrong. -And I think if he had seen the man, he would have put him out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out, then he did -the wrong thing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you think he would have been disciplined for that, -too, don't you? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he would be disciplined for that, too, and he -would be, if he had seen the man and hadn't put him out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that if Blackie knew that he wouldn't be -disciplined for this, and if somebody were to tell him now that he -wouldn't be disciplined and it wouldn't be made known to anybody in the -public or even anybody in the police department, and it actually turned -out Blackie did see this guy, do you think Blackie would tell us about -that? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he would. Blackie is an honest man. In fact, -the way it is right now, if he had saw the man, I believe he would tell -you he had. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You heard the story that Blackie had taken some sort of -medicine before he took that lie detector test? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I haven't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven't heard that story? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are concerned, I take it, about the department, -though you said you are not concerned about any particular man in the -department, but you are concerned about the department? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. As far as doing anything wrong? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you act---- - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The way you are talking is that I am concerned that -I think we have done something wrong. I don't think there is one -wrongdoing, as far as the officers are concerned and what happened down -there. I didn't think like that. - -Departmental wise or individualwise, there are things pro and con of -what should have happened and what shouldn't have happened. - -One way of looking, there shouldn't have been any news media, and maybe -they shouldn't have been spread out that way, but we would have caught -the dickens that way. - -And, as I heard, Chief Curry had the okay from a little higher up to go -ahead and have the news media, and it didn't turn out too good. - -But as far as wrongdoings, there is not one wrong thing that happened -as far as our department is concerned. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lowery? Are you much of a friend with Lowery? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We ride to work together and run around a bit together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How friendly are you with Harrison? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We are good friends, but as far as running around, he -lives way over in Pleasant Grove, and I live in Grand Prairie. It is -way across town, so we don't get around together. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery had seen Ruby. Did Lowery know Ruby? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Did he recognize Ruby before? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He had seen Ruby on a number of occasions, actually, -didn't he before? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean before this happened? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I tell you the truth, I really don't know. I think he -said he knew him, or seen him around, but as far as actual standing -there, I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain King in the basement at any time prior -to the shooting? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, now, that I don't remember whether I saw him down -there prior to the shooting or whether it was after. There was a whole -bunch of officers down there, and, man, I do remember a few immediately -right there, and someone that came out the door, because I was right -there and watched them as they came out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, if you and Captain King had been standing -together and you both saw Ruby and you both knew Ruby, what would you -do? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, now, you mean if we saw him come into the -basement, or if we saw him standing there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Saw him standing down there and you were both standing -there together? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, that is something that is pretty hard to say, -honestly, because the basement is supposed to be secured when we went -down there. - -In other words, everybody that wasn't supposed to be there, was -supposed to be out, and they had officers checking them coming in, and -me not knowing Ruby, I probably wouldn't have known him if I had been -shown him on the street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you knew Ruby and you both were standing there, if you -knew him and you and Captain King were standing there, and you knew -Captain King was looking at him too---- - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have tried to find out what he was doing, -knowing he wasn't a newsman or couldn't have a news pass. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have deferred to Captain King or any other -superior officer? Would you let him take the initiative on it? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have asked him myself if I had seen him, because -that is what we were down there for. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at, and the only reason I use -Captain King--I could have used Chief Batchelor or anybody like that, -but my point is, that if a junior officer like you and a senior officer -were standing together, is there any feeling that you would defer to -the senior officer to take the initiative in throwing some guy out? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. If he were in charge of me or in charge of security and -if I saw Jack Ruby there and he didn't have a pass on and I knew him -and knew that he was not a news representative, then if I confronted -him and he said, "Chief Batchelor said it was okay," then I would have -asked the chief if it was all right. - -Otherwise, I wouldn't say the chief had anything to do with it and I -would put him out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, if you had seen him first, you would have gone -directly to him and then turned to your superior officer and said what -shall I do about this guy? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have went directly to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have gone directly to him. Do you think that is -true of any other officer or do you think some of them would have acted -different? - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is hard to say, not knowing every officer's traits. -Some operate one way and some operate another. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to examine Cutchshaw Exhibits Nos. 5042, -5043, 5044, 5045, and 5046, and if there are no further additions or -corrections to make to those in addition to all this we have been -talking about, then I would like you to sign each one of these and date -them. - -Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Where do you want me to sign? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it in a conspicuous place where I have placed the -mark on the paper. Sign your name and date it. Regular signature or -full name. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF NAPOLEON J. DANIELS - -The testimony of Napoleon J. Daniels was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April -16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert, Mr. Daniels. I'm a member of the -advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission -under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, -and joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure -adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and -the joint resolution, and I have been authorized to take the sworn -deposition from you, Mr. Daniels. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and to report on the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mr. Daniels, the nature of the inquiry today -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and, of -course, about the entry of Jack Ruby into the basement of the police -department. - -Now, Mr. Daniels, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a -written request sent to you by mail. - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And signed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin. - -Mr. DANIELS. Correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. General Counsel of the President's Commission. - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I received it Saturday, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. Last Saturday? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that this is Thursday. - -Mr. DANIELS. It has been 3 days. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand, stand, and take the oath, -please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this -matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, -so help you God? - -Mr. DANIELS. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. State your full name? - -Mr. DANIELS. Napoleon J. Daniels. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Mr. DANIELS. Thirty-two. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? - -Mr. DANIELS. 2229 Sutter [spelling] S-u-t-t-e-r. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Daniels? - -Mr. DANIELS. Real estate broker. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied? - -Mr. DANIELS. About 3 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you own your own company? - -Mr. DANIELS. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were at one time connected with the police department, -were you not? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; about 7 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. About 7 years? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the police department? - -Mr. DANIELS. I left there in November 1962. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were the circumstances under which you left? - -Mr. DANIELS. Let me see just how I can put this--well, I resigned, of -course, I was asked to resign because of some conflicts I had with a -tenant living in one of my apartments. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you rented out some property to a tenant -and you had some difficulty with the tenant? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And on account of that difficulty they asked you to resign -from the police department? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did resign? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And have you continued in the business under the name N. J. -Daniels Real Estate Co.? - -Mr. DANIELS. That's right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; just a company. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I know you have already made a statement to the FBI, -as a matter of fact, I think you have made two statements, one to the -State police--I would now just like for you to tell us what you know of -entry of Jack Ruby into the basement? - -Mr. DANIELS. Well, actually, I don't feel like I really know anything, -but I saw a guy go in the basement, but I don't think it was Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's start off with that morning, of course, you knew that -the President had been killed? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And as I understand, you were riding in your own car over -towards the place where he was killed? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes, I was going out Main Street. I was going--let's see, -that was Sunday morning and I was going down Main Street to look at the -spot where the President had been assassinated and as I drove by the -city hall, I noticed a bunch of people standing around and noticed this -officer standing in the entrance to the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. On Main Street? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; on Main Street, and so I made the block and turned -around and came back and parked. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park? - -Mr. DANIELS. Pardon? - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park? - -Mr. DANIELS. On Main there, right down from the city hall there, I -guess about a half a block down. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the other side of the street? - -Mr. DANIELS. On the same side of the city hall, you see, I went around -and came back. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went around what street? - -Mr. DANIELS. Now, that first street down, I guess that's--I was going -down Main and turned, I believe the first block. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would that have been Pearl? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; you see, I was going west on Main and the first street -I could turn--I think the first street is a one way going left, but I -turned and came back the other way, so it must have been Ervay where I -turned and went up to Pacific and then come back up to Harwood and then -came down Harwood to Main and made a left on Main and parked up in a -vacant space on the other side of the city hall--on the east side of -the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. I thought you had parked at a parking lot near the Western -Union office? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; it wasn't a parking lot. I was thinking I parked on -the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. You parked on the street? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it near the Western Union office? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; right down from the city hall. In other words, it was -in between there and the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you were parked on Main Street? - -Mr. DANIELS. On the south side of Main. - -Mr. HUBERT. Not in a parking lot? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; I wasn't at a parking lot, no, I think I parked on the -street, I'm sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you parked on the same side of the street as the city -hall and as the police department is and as the Western Union office is? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you parked at a spot between the Western Union office -and the Main Street entrance of the city hall? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or the police department? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with that building, because you worked -there for a long time? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you were about half way between the Western -Union and the Main ramp, or just what distance between those two? - -Mr. DANIELS. Oh, let me see, let me get it in my mind--I would say -I was a little nearer the Western Union Building than I was to the -entrance of the basement of the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with that alley that goes from Main Street -back in towards Commerce and makes an "L" and comes out on Pearl Street? - -Mr. DANIELS. I think I was just on the east side of that. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "east," it doesn't mean anything to me. - -Mr. DANIELS. Near Pearl. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were on the Western Union side of the -alley? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your car was facing towards the Western Union? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time was it when you got there? - -Mr. DANIELS. Near 11 o'clock--I wasn't paying much attention to the -time, it must have been near 11 o'clock or a little after. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that? - -Mr. DANIELS. Well, I'm trying to fix it at about the time Oswald was -shot. Now, I was there about 20 or 25 or 30 minutes before it happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you parked your car, did you sit in your car any -length of time at all? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; I got out and walked back up there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you immediately got out and walked back up to the -Main door--the Main door entrance? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to show you a drawing, which among other -things includes the entrance to the basement, and I am marking it for -the purpose of identification as follows: - -"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5324, Deposition of N. J. -Daniels," and I am marking it with my name. - -I would like you to study this, and I point out to you that this is -Main Street, here is the Western Union office, and here is Pearl. - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Over in that direction would be Harwood, Commerce is over -here. - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the Main Street entrance? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. The sidewalk. - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think you are familiar with the fact that there is -a stone fence about 2 feet high that runs from the entrance of Main -Street toward the street some distance. - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, you were parked on Main Street -itself? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Facing towards the Western Union Building? - -Mr. DANIELS. This side of the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the same side of the street as the Western Union -Building? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that you reached there at approximately 11 o'clock? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; at approximately 11 o'clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. You immediately got out of your car and you walked toward -the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you got down there, did you go past the ramp, or did -you stay on the Western Union side of the ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. I think when I first got there, I walked over in front of -the little entrance down in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you could look right down the ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. So I could look in there, because I was on the sidewalk -when I did that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer Vaughn? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had known him from the time you were on the police -force? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he recognize you? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you went to the middle of the ramp, but still on the -sidewalk and looked down the sidewalk? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay there very long? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; I spoke to him and he told me that he was blocking -anybody's entrance, in other words, that's what he meant, that he was -blocking anybody's entrance into the basement. That's what he was there -for. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was posted at that spot--where was he standing? - -Mr. DANIELS. He was standing right in the middle of the entrance there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark on Exhibit 5324 a position which I -am going to call "1" and I am putting a circle on it and I'm going to -draw a line, and then I'm going to put "First position of Daniels," is -that about correct? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes, that's about correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark a position called "2" and I'm going -to draw a line, and I'm going to mark it "position of Vaughn when -Daniels was in position number "1", and ask you if that is correct? - -Mr. DANIELS. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And as you said, he recognized you and you recognized him? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you looked down? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do? - -Mr. DANIELS. I stepped back over to the bannister and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean back towards the Western Union? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go on the other side of the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Towards Harwood? - -Mr. DANIELS. No--at no time--I never did. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say you went towards the bannister, were you on -the inside of the bannister, that is to say, between the bannister and -the ramp, or on the Western Union side of it? - -Mr. DANIELS. You mean after I got back to it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I got--I went back to it and stood on the Western -Union side and just propped my foot up on the end of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were then facing toward Harwood Street? - -Mr. DANIELS. Correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. More or less? - -Mr. DANIELS. Correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you move out of that position at all? - -Mr. DANIELS. Well, yes; during the time I was there I moved several -times, but it was all right around in that area there. - -Mr. HUBERT. But did you ever go to the Harwood Street side of the Main -Street ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to draw it lightly first so we can get it -straight--if I draw an area like so--would it be fair to say that you -were at all times that you are going to testify to later, within that -area, except when you left? - -Mr. DANIELS. Now, what is this here--is this the bannister here? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; this is the measuring line, this doesn't actually show -the bannister. - -Mr. DANIELS. The bannister come right around in here--I was always -right in this area right in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, we will draw a circle like that. - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am drawing a larger circle in which I am putting the -number "3", drawing a line out and saying "Area in which Daniels was -after he left position '1' and until shooting." Right? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand, of course, that you might have moved -around in that area, but substantially that's what it was? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was on the Western Union side of the little concrete -or marble ramp that comes out? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you are telling me that you never did go on the Harwood -Street side thereafter? - -Mr. DANIELS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in the area you were in--this area -that we have marked No. 3? - -Mr. DANIELS. Well, now, at different times there was as high as four or -five--some of them would come by and stop and then go on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. DANIELS. Let me see--about that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Even though there were some people on the other side of the -ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; there was three or four on the other side. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long before Oswald was shot, and I think you did hear -the shot? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long before Oswald was shot did you get to position No. -1? - -Mr. DANIELS. I would say 20 or 25 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then, how long were you in position No. 3 before he was -shot, in the area of No. 3? - -Mr. DANIELS. Well, let me see--almost the same, because I had just came -over here and looked and immediately walked back over here--I would say -no time. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you came from your car to position 1 and -took a quick look and went to the area of No. 3? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until the shot was fired, and you -think it was about 20 minutes later? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a car coming up the ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Lt. Rio Pierce? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him driving the car? - -Mr. DANIELS. I don't remember whether he was driving or not, there were -four officers in there and he was the only one I recognized right off. - -Mr. HUBERT. There were four in there you say? - -Mr. DANIELS. Two in the front and two in the back. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who were the others? - -Mr. DANIELS. I didn't really get a good look at them but I knew him, -but I got a better look at him than I did the rest of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he see you--did he show any signs of recognition to you? - -Mr. DANIELS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting did that occur? - -Mr. DANIELS. Let's see, I would say 3 or 4 minutes. Now, I have been -thoroughly confused on this because down at the police department they -tell me one thing and it gets my mind all confused. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what we want is not what somebody else told you, but -what you, yourself can best remember today. - -Mr. DANIELS. Here's what struck me--when I saw the car come out, I -was thinking--I guess they are fixing to bring Oswald out now, maybe, -because they are coming out to set up a guard, and they pulled on out -and I remember watching the car until they got to Harwood and Main, and -then I stopped looking at it and I didn't pay any attention to where -it went or anything, and then I kind of looked back down in there from -where I was standing near the ramp there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the car came out, what did Vaughn do? - -Mr. DANIELS. Vaughn walked out to the street to hold up traffic, -because they were coming out the wrong way. They don't normally come -out that way and he was going out to hold up traffic and let them get -through. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he get beyond the sidewalk so that he was actually out -in the street? - -Mr. DANIELS. I think he walked out in the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. How far into the street? - -Mr. DANIELS. That would be hard to say but I wasn't paying that much -attention, but he walked out into the street--he didn't get beyond the -center of the street, but he walked out in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he left position No. 2 and went to a -position we will call No. 4 by a circle, and I will just write in there -"approximate position of Vaughn when Rio Pierce's car drove out," and -when I say "approximate," I am understanding you to say that you are -not sure how far into the street he went, you know he did not go -beyond the center stripe, but you think he went---- - -Mr. DANIELS. Almost---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Out over the sidewalk and into the street? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; because there was some cars parked and he had to get -beyond them, you see. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were watching the car and Vaughn, I think -you said you watched the car until it went around the corner. Did you -see anybody go down the ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. No, no; I didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible for somebody to have gone to -your left and down the ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. You mean have gotten between me and there? - -Mr. HUBERT. And the building--yes. - -Mr. DANIELS. Not without me seeing them--I don't hardly think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, they would have to climb over the little -marble---- - -Mr. DANIELS. Well, I was not exactly against it at that time. When the -car came out, I think I stepped back a little bit, you know, and moved -out of the way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said that at one point you were standing on the -Western Union side of that concrete--what do you call it? - -Mr. DANIELS. I call it a ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Concrete ramp--sticking out in the sidewalk? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you had your foot on it? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; because I was in and out of that position, but when -the car came out, I left that and I stepped back out here a little -piece from the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you left the area 3 and went more towards -the street? - -Mr. DANIELS. I went towards the street and kind of back down the -sidewalk a little piece. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went more towards the Main Street curb and back in the -direction of the Western Union? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you didn't see anybody go to your left? - -Mr. DANIELS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see anybody go down the ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, after Vaughn had done this and the car had gone -around, what did Vaughn do? - -Mr. DANIELS. He came back and took his position up again. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that it is fair to say then that the position we have -marked on the map as position 2 was also the position of Vaughn after -the Rio Pierce automobile had gone through? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened after that? - -Mr. DANIELS. Let's see, there is something else that I have been -thoroughly confused on--I have never been able to picture in my mind -just how it happened--the guy that I saw go into the basement--I'm not -sure it was before or after the car came out. I'm not sure--I have run -that in my mind a thousand times, but I just can't place one before the -other. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you saw a man go down in the basement? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And at the time you saw him go down in the basement, where -was Vaughn? - -Mr. DANIELS. In position 2. - -Mr. HUBERT. In position 2, that is to say, squarely in the middle of -the ramp? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Vaughn look at him? - -Mr. DANIELS. I think he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Vaughn try to stop him? - -Mr. DANIELS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. He went right on through? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long that was before the shot was fired? - -Mr. DANIELS. 3 or 4 minutes, I guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. But what you say is confusing you is as to whether or not -that was after the Rio Pierce car came out? - -Mr. DANIELS. I'm not sure--I can't place one before the other--if I had -to guess at it, I would say it was before. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think now that you saw the man go down -past Vaughn before the Rio Pierce car came? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct? - -Mr. DANIELS. That's what I'm thinking. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's your best recollection today? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car did drive out and Vaughn left -his position at No. 2, didn't you as a matter of fact undertake to -watch that position which was left unguarded? - -Mr. DANIELS. I did notice it to see if anybody went down in it so I -could tell him about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. And nobody did? - -Mr. DANIELS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that does not refresh your memory as to whether or not -the man you saw go down, went down before or after the Pierce car came -out? - -Mr. DANIELS. Let me see--I still think it was before. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that now? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; I can't be positive--I don't know it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that you thought at one time he was the man -you had seen somehow when you were on the police force? - -Mr. DANIELS. Well, yes; and here's what--when the guy walked down in -there and Vaughn seemed to look at him, the impression I got was that -Vaughn knew him and maybe he had let him out and still, I wondered too -why he let him go down in there, because he wasn't letting anybody -else go down in there. He looked like one of the news reporters or -something, at least that's what I took him to be after Vaughn let him -go on down. I had seen him before and I thought, well, maybe he's one -of the news reporters down there at the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to do this, Mr. Daniels, I have here three -documents. The first one purports to be a copy of an interview with the -State police, I think, or the city police, in the course of which you -executed an affidavit on November 29, 1963. - -I'm going to mark that for purpose of identification as follows: - -"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5325, deposition of N. J. -Daniels," and I am signing my name below it. There are two pages. I -am marking the second page with my initials in the lower right-hand -corner. Then there's another document which purports to be a report of -an interview with the FBI Agents Neil Quigley and John Dallman, which -interview occurred on December 4, 1964. That document has four pages. I -am marking in the right hand margin on the first page, the following: - -"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5326, Deposition of N. J. -Daniels." I am writing my name below that and marking the second and -third and fourth pages of that with my initials in the lower right-hand -corner, and finally, there is another document which is an FBI report -of an interview with Bramblett [spelling] B-r-a-m-b-l-e-t-t and -Dallman, taken of you on December 18, 1963, and I am marking that: - -"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, this is Exhibit 5327, Deposition of N. -J. Daniels." - -I am marking my name on it and since the document consists of three -pages, I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the -second and third pages. - -Now, Mr. Daniels, I would like you to read these three documents with -this in mind, that after you have had a chance to read them calmly and -quietly, take all the time you want, I would like you to look at them -and be able to comment upon them. - -For instance, I am going to ask you if they are correct, or what is -wrong about them, and I want to try to reconcile them, and see if we -can get at what are really the facts as you recollect the facts today. -We are not interested in any positions of mind or concepts that you -don't really have, but that other people might have driven you to, -with good motive or not, what we want now is forgetting about whatever -anybody else told you, what your recollection is right now--today, -without reference to anything else, if you can possibly do it. - -Keep that in mind--forget about suggestions made to you in all good -faith by other people, and just cut that out of your mind and let's -just do that--that scene as you saw it, and these words today. - -Mr. DANIELS. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to give you some time to look at it. - -Mr. DANIELS. [Examining instruments referred to.] - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Daniels, you have had an opportunity to read the -exhibits that I have marked Exhibits Nos. 5325, 5326, and 5327. Now, -have you any comment to make with respect to the three exhibits and the -statements made by you in them? - -Mr. DANIELS. They said three people was in the car--it seems like I saw -four--all of them had on these white supervisor caps, leather top hats -that the supervisors wear down there and it just seemed like I saw four. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, what you are saying in effect now is that the -people who reported in these exhibits that you said you saw three were -wrong, or that you were wrong in telling them three, because your -present recollection is that there were four? - -Mr. DANIELS. I think it was four. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other corrections that you wish to make? - -Mr. DANIELS. Let's see. I don't remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any others? - -Mr. DANIELS. I don't remember--corrections. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is my duty to call your attention to Exhibit 5325, -which is the affidavit that you made on November 29. - -Mr. DANIELS. November 29? What I said? - -Mr. HUBERT. And in Exhibit 5327, which is the report of an interview by -the agents of the FBI on December 18, you seem to quite clearly state -that the man you saw walk down the ramp past Vaughn, did so after the -car had passed? - -Mr. DANIELS. Well, I said I think I have changed my mind now--I believe -it was after the car had gone out when I saw him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me get it straight--what is your present impression now? - -Mr. DANIELS. That's it--the way I fix it in my mind--the way I arrive -at that conclusion is that when the shot rang out, my first thought was -the guy that just walked down in there did that, so timing that way it -would have to be after that car came out, because that car had time to -go quite a ways, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying then is that, the statements that are -contained in Exhibits 5325 and 5327 you now believe to be correct? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the statement you made in your deposition earlier today -that you could not be sure whether that man went in before or after was -incorrect? I think you even went further, if my memory serves me right, -and said that your best recollection was that the man had gone down -past Vaughn before the car came out, isn't that what you said earlier -in your deposition? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes; until I refreshed myself on it and when I read that I -got a better picture in my mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that now your testimony is that you think that the man -you saw go by--past Vaughn, did so after the car had gone out, that is -to say, after Vaughn had left his position at (2), gone out into the -street to the approximate position of (4) and come back again to his -position at (2)? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then it was at that time or shortly thereafter that the -man went straight by Vaughn? - -Mr. DANIELS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But that is your present best recollection? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you believe that the thing that has made you change -your mind is that when you read these statements--it refreshes your -memory? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you quite sure it refreshes your memory or, are you -worried about contradicting yourself? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; I'm not worried about contradicting myself, I'm just -trying to be sure and tell the truth. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right--I want to assure you that it doesn't matter to us -whether you contradict yourself or not. - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is no suggestion made to you here that if you made a -mistake before that any kind of penalty or punishment or prosecution -will follow, because that isn't so, unless you made a wilful -misstatement, but I'm not going into that now. What I want to know -now is what really happened. Now, Mr. Daniels, that's why I asked you -before to try to put everything out of your mind. - -Mr. DANIELS. That's the trouble with this--it has been out of my mind -and I am trying to get it back in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You feel now, considering all the statements you made -originally are the truthful ones? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other corrections or additions or deletions -that you would like to make as to the exhibits that have been -identified as exhibits as numbers 5325, 5326, and 5327? - -Mr. DANIELS. I can't think of any. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think it can be fairly said that anyone who would -read the three exhibits 5325, 5326, and 5327 and who would read the -transcript of your deposition at a later time and who would have the -advantage of being able to follow your deposition on this chart that -has been marked as Daniel's Exhibit 5324, that such a person reading -all those documents would have all of the truth, so far as you know it? - -Mr. DANIELS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And we would have all that you do know? - -Mr. DANIELS. That's absolutely right--that's right, I believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, is there anything else, have you anything else -to say? - -Mr. DANIELS. No; I can't think of anything else. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. I am glad you came by. - -Mr. DANIELS. All right, thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. HARRISON - -The testimony of William J. Harrison was taken at 3:45 p.m., on March -25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. William J. -Harrison was accompanied by his counsel, Ted P. MacMaster. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I was looking through here to see if I could get you a -copy of our rules. Let me state for the record. Correct me if I get the -names wrong. We have here Officer W. J. Harrison of the Dallas Police -Department and Mr. MacMaster. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Ted P. MacMaster [spelling] M-a-c-M-a-s-t-e-r, assistant -city attorney of the city of Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wanted to provide for you, before we even get into the -formal part of it a copy of the rules, and I think this is a complete -copy, Mr. MacMaster, and, if you like, let me hand them to you. - -Mr. MacMASTER. That is fine. Thank you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me state, talk a little bit about this, and then -maybe, if you feel that you would like to stop and take a look at it a -little longer, I would be happy to do that. I will state for the record -that my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the advisory staff -of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy, and this Commission has been set -up pursuant to an Executive Order 11130 by President Johnson issued -November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress -No. 137. Pursuant to this Executive order and these resolutions, there -have been a set of rules and a procedure prescribed by the Commission, -and I believe, Mr. MacMaster, that what I have just handed you is a -copy, and I believe a complete copy, of the rules, but if you would -like for me to check and make sure that is everything, I will check -with one of my colleagues. Would---- - -Mr. MacMASTER. Yes; I would appreciate that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like me to? - -Mr. MacMASTER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will have to take it. - -(Recess.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For the record, I have checked with my colleague, Mr. Leon -Hubert, and he confirms my statement to you that that is a complete -copy of the rules of the Commission. - -Mr. MacMASTER. I would like to state for the record, Officer William -J. Harrison, a member of the police department of the city of Dallas, -Tex., is making a voluntary appearance here today and is here for -the purpose of voluntarily assisting, in every way possible, in this -investigation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I certainly appreciate that, and let me take some time -here to explain to you what is involved here. This Commission was set -up under this resolution and this Executive order, which I have given -you a copy of, for the purpose of investigating, evaluating, reporting -back to President Johnson upon the facts surrounding the assassination -of the President and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, we have -asked Mr. Harrison to come here today to talk with him in particular -about the facts that are attendant to the killing of Oswald. We don't -want to preclude any information that you may have that falls anywhere -within the scope of the Commission, so if there is anything, why I -would like you on your own to bring it up and we want very much to hear -it. - -Let me go back and explain where we are procedurally. Officer Harrison -is appearing here by virtue of a letter, which is sent by the General -Counsel of the Commission to Chief Curry, and the General Counsel, -under these resolutions, has the right to determine who shall be -deposed and also has the authority to authorize individual members of -his staff to take individual depositions, and I have been authorized, -pursuant to that letter to Mr. Curry, to take Mr. Harrison's -deposition. Now, the witness is entitled to 3 days' written notice -before he testifies before the Commission, and some of the witnesses -have asked for it, others of them haven't. - -Mr. MacMASTER. You don't have any reason for that? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. MacMASTER. He wants to waive that 3-day notice. - -Mr. HARRISON. Just waive it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And, also, they have a right to counsel before the -Commission. Many of the witnesses have come before the Commission, and -Mr. Harrison is here with Mr. MacMaster, who is his attorney. Do you -have any questions you want to ask me before I swear the witness in? - -Mr. MacMASTER. No; not that I know of at this point. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Harrison, do you have any questions that you would -like to ask me? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I would like to know if I understand. You have the -reports that we made to the FBI? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. HARRISON. And also the ones that we made to our chief? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, we do. - -Mr. HARRISON. Do we get to read those? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like to see a copy of them? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I haven't seen them. - -Mr. MacMASTER. You want them to refresh your memory? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me get it out of here. Would you like to -take time and go out? - -Mr. MacMASTER. Do you want to take a little time? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you look it over? You can step out of the room. -Maybe I can find another office for you, too. - -(Recess.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I might ask you again if you have any other questions that -I can answer before I swear you in? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know of anything. This is off of the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear -that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. HARRISON. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. HARRISON. William J. Harrison. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Harrison? - -Mr. HARRISON. August 28, 1924. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now? - -Mr. HARRISON. At 9223 Donnybrook. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, I am. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas department? - -Mr. HARRISON. Past 16 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what particular bureau or subdivision are you -attached to at present? - -Mr. HARRISON. I am a patrolman assigned to the juvenile bureau of the -CID. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working in that capacity or were you a member of -the department in that capacity on November 22, 23, and 24? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to ask you some questions generally about -events, things have to do with events before the 24th, and I am not -going to go into as much detail as the events of the 24th, but I do -want to ask you where you were at the time that you heard that the -President was shot. - -Mr. HARRISON. Where I was at the time that I heard that the President -was shot? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. HARRISON. I was on duty at the market hall. I was standing at -the--I guess it would be the west end of the President's table. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Trade Mart? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas Trade Mart? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; market. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there after you heard that the -President was shot? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was approximately an hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go? - -Mr. HARRISON. Come back to the city hall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Police Department Building or the city hall portion of -it? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, to the juvenile bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you go up to the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got back to the juvenile -bureau? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I don't recall. Stayed around the office there -until time to go home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you got back to the -police department? - -Mr. HARRISON. It was around 1:30 or 2. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you go off duty that day? - -Mr. HARRISON. Four. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go out of the building -between the time that you returned and the time that you went off duty? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. I don't think I ever went out of the -building. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working on any particular cases that you recall? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were there prior to 4 -o'clock, did you see anybody on the third floor or elsewhere in the -building who you knew was not a police officer or a member of the press -or somebody who was up on some sort of official business with the -police department, did you recognize anybody that you knew? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby there at anytime prior to 4 o'clock -Friday afternoon? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You do recognize Ruby by sight, do you not? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack personally? - -Mr. HARRISON. I knew him as a businessman as well by sight, and I have -known him for 12 years, I guess, as a businessman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I used to go into his place. I was a motorcycle -officer, and we would go into these different places just checking, and -he was running the Silver Spur, I think was the name of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What bureau were you assigned to at that time? - -Mr. HARRISON. I was in the traffic bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that motorcycle patrol? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; motorcycle patrol. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that downtown only? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. We rode all over the city. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What particular business did you have in there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Oh, we went in, we went into several places, maybe to get -a cold drink, checking maybe to see if there was some drunks in there, -just regular, routine checks more or less. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever see him on a social basis? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him in any capacity other than as a -police officer? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you in the last 12 years had any part-time jobs while -you were with the police department? - -Mr. HARRISON. Any part-time jobs while I--I didn't understand that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; while you were a member of the police department, did -you have any part-time jobs? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I have had part-time jobs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with any of this part-time work, have you -ever worked with Jack Ruby? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of part-time jobs have you had? - -Mr. HARRISON. Around parade of homes, working traffic around these -parades of home, and on special occasions, like where they have -big traffic problems, and in, well, you might say, jewelry stores, -department stores, working in both. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any special trade like carpenter, -bricklayer or anything like that? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you left the police department -at 4 o'clock on Friday? - -Mr. HARRISON. I drove home, went home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you the remainder of the evening? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I don't recall at all, but I believe I was at my -home. I don't think I had left the house. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that makes you think you might have -been some place else? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. I just don't remember back that--if I went anywhere -or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what shift did you work on Saturday? - -Mr. HARRISON. 8 to 4. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you report for duty at the juvenile---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the building all day on Saturday? - -Mr. HARRISON. On a Saturday? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you worked out of the building on -Saturday? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't recall. It was just a normal, routine day, -as far as our work was concerned, handling the juvenile prisoners and -checking those beeves that we had assigned to us. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you went on duty on Saturday, did -you receive any telephone calls or other communications from Jack Ruby -or anybody who was an associate of Jack Ruby? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the police department about 4 p.m. on Saturday? - -Mr. HARRISON. On Saturday? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. No; I beg your pardon. Yes; it was about 4 -o'clock on Saturday afternoon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you left the police department, had -you heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald, proposed movement -of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I hadn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do Saturday after you left work? - -Mr. HARRISON. I went home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you spend Saturday night at home? - -Mr. HARRISON. Spend Saturday night at home; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for work on Sunday? - -Mr. HARRISON. 8 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, anytime on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anywhere? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of his friends or associates anyplace? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know any of his friends or associates. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with a fellow by the name of George -Senator? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the last year, the year prior to the time that -the President was shot, how often did you have occasion to visit Ruby's -place? - -Mr. HARRISON. I believe that I went in his place one time within the -last year. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't--I don't recall. A group of us. I say a group of -us. Occasionally, we will hear about some juvenile being in a place -like that, and occasionally we will check to see if there are any down -there, and, if I recall, I believe Officer Cutchshaw and myself went -down to the Carousel Club one time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the course of your duties, did you ever find that Jack -Ruby provided any useful information to the police department? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you or any of the officers that you know in the police -department attempt ever to obtain information out of Jack Ruby with -respect to your duties? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't. I don't know if any of the other officers -did or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There wasn't ever any occasion when you tried to get any -assistance or information from him? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for work on Saturday--Sunday, -rather--you say you report at 8 o'clock? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the normal reporting time in your bureau? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car? - -Mr. HARRISON. I parked it over by the garage on Young Street, and -actually, well, it was on a parking lot there next to the garage. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Young and---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what intersection? - -Mr. HARRISON. Young and Pearl Expressway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come into the building with any of your fellow -officers? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came into the building -through? - -Mr. HARRISON. I drove into the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about the police department building. - -Mr. HARRISON. I drove into the basement of the city hall there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, I thought you parked your car there. - -Mr. HARRISON. I did. I parked my personal car on the parking lot across -from the police garage on Young and Pearl. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. HARRISON. I picked up a city car at the garage, drove to the -basement of the city hall, where I parked it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What car number was it? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. Don't have any idea. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any sort of record that is maintained on what -cars you drive? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, we fill out a slip on each car we drive every day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you fill out a slip on that car? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where do you get the keys to one of those cars that -is over there? - -Mr. HARRISON. They are left in the car, they are in the cars. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And are they kept in a locked garage, is that it? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; it is a two-story parking affair, enclosed in a fence -up to, you know---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a guard on the fence? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; there is no guard. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there any particular reason for taking that car -that day? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, we always park our personal car and pick up our -city car and drive over close to the city hall there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And it is part of your responsibility, you -ordinarily pick up a car? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a particular car assigned to you? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no. We have a pool system. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive back with anybody to the police department? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I was alone that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you parked the car in the garage of the -municipal building and walked by the jail office? - -Mr. HARRISON. To the elevator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When you arrived, were there any newspaper people -down in the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. In the basement? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; not that I recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether there were any TV cameras set up -when you arrived that day in the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you came in, I take it that you came in down the Main -Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a guard on the Main Street ramp at the time that -you came? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the third floor? Is -that right? - -Mr. HARRISON. I went to the juvenile bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the locker room first? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You went right up to the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the third floor? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was there in the juvenile bureau when -you got in? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. Goolsby was working the desk and Mrs. McLine was -there and Miller and Lowery. I believe Cutchshaw. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you recall? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Martin there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall seeing him when I first come in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived, what did you do as soon as you arrived -up there in the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. HARRISON. We checked to see what we had assigned to us. They assign -the beeves of a morning when we first come in and put a copy of it in -our drawer, and we always check the first thing to see if we have any -messages or if there has been anything assigned to us to work on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have anything assigned to you at that time to -work on? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did after you checked your -assignments? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, Miller and I went to eat breakfast. I don't know -the exact time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that was after you arrived? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea. Approximately 20 or 30 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with anybody concerning what was going -on in the homicide office or what was going on in connection with Lee -Oswald when you came in? - -Mr. HARRISON. I beg your pardon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you come into the juvenile bureau, did you talk to -any of the people in connection with what was happening with Lee Oswald? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall. I may have asked if he was still up -there. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that--excuse me. - -Mr. MacMaster, this is Mr. Hubert of our office. Mr. MacMaster is -assistant city attorney. This is Mr. Harrison, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HARRISON. Hello. Glad to see you, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you arrived in the building, had you -heard anything in connection with the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald to -the county jail? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I hadn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything about whether he was going to be -moved at all that day? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, the--they were talking, the pressmen were talking -about it out in the hall as we come by. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear the press people say? - -Mr. HARRISON. They said he would be moved sometime that morning, and I -couldn't tell you who the pressmen were or anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer Miller about this when you got -in? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with any of the officers about this? - -Mr. HARRISON. When Captain Martin came in, I believe we had gone to get -breakfast, and when we got back, they told us to stay around the bureau -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you went out to get breakfast, where did -you have breakfast? - -Mr. HARRISON. At the Deluxe Diner there at the 1900 block of Commerce. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose suggestion was it to go out for breakfast? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. Mine or Miller's one. I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask anybody else to go with you? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was just you and Miller that went to the Deluxe Diner? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody at the Deluxe Diner that you knew? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the people who operate the diner or the -waitresses? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. I know some of them that work over there, but I don't -recall who was working that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you visit there often enough so that they know you? - -Mr. HARRISON. Some of the employees do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you left the juvenile bureau, who did you talk -with before going? You didn't ask anybody to come with you. Did you -tell anybody that you were going out? - -Mr. HARRISON. We told the deskman, Goolsby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Goolsby? - -Mr. HARRISON. We were going over to get a cup of coffee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, how long did you remain at the Deluxe Diner? - -Mr. HARRISON. I would say around 30 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anything happen over there? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the movement of Lee Oswald at all? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. We didn't know anything about it then. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you talked about over there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I sure don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Speculation about whether they were going to get a story -out of him, a confession, or anything like that? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did you happen to decide to leave the diner? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were through eating and went back over to the -city hall there to the bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if you talked with anybody while you were -over at the Deluxe Diner? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you talked with any--had any -telephone calls when you were there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I believe I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. - -Mr. HARRISON. I believe I did have a phone call. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What do you remember about the phone call? - -Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Goolsby. He called us and told us not to -leave the city hall, that was the captain's order, Captain Martin's -order. He told us to come on back to the bureau when we got through -eating. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HARRISON. I recall that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you got back to the bureau, did you -report back in to Goolsby? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, he saw us come in. We didn't have to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Martin when you got back? - -Mr. HARRISON. I believe he was there when we got back in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody when you got back about the -proposed movement of Oswald? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. Of course, it may have been discussed there as to -what time it would be. I don't recall who was talking or what was said, -but I know we were told to stand by the bureau there by Captain Martin. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did Martin tell you this? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, actually, on this phone call Goolsby made over -there, he told us that the captain had told us to stand by there in the -bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HARRISON. When we got back up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Martin then tell you the same thing when you got -up? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether he did or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long was it between the time that you got this -call from Goolsby and you actually went down to the basement in -connection with the movement of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. HARRISON. I would say about 2 hours. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you came back from the diner, how did you come back -into the building? - -Mr. HARRISON. Came across to Harwood Street and down to the Harwood -Street entrance to the city hall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you went out, did you go out that way or did you -go out by the Commerce Street entrance? - -Mr. HARRISON. Went that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody around the police building at -that time whom you recognized that wasn't either a police officer or a -newspaperman? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; when we came back, there was a man by the name -of Johnny Miller, who owns a trailer house sales on West Davis. It -is right across from Sivils parking lot there. It is a trailer sales -company. He was standing in the door of this television company truck -talking, and he turned around and shook hands with me and spoke to me, -and I went on in the building. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what he said to you? - -Mr. HARRISON. He just spoke to me and shook hands with me said he was -glad to see me, and that is the extent of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Miller know Ruby, to your knowledge? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. I don't know that, whether he knows him or -not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything that would lead you to think that he might? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I have known Miller just about the same length of -time that I have known Ruby, but I don't know whether he even knew Ruby -or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Miller a close, personal friend of yours? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no; just an acquaintance. Oh, I have stopped out -there at his place and sat there and talked to him and have gone and -had coffee with him, but just an acquaintance, not a personal friend. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a TV sales and repair shop that he runs? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; a house trailer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sorry. House trailer. House trailer. Okay. Now, do -you remember what you did in those roughly 2 hours between the time you -got back up to the juvenile bureau and the time that you went down to -the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; I don't recall, except sitting up there -answering the phone and just checking on beeves that I had had assigned -to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you all keeping your eye out for when Oswald would be -moved? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, we knew that we would be told, that someone would -come and get us. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of what would be the occasion for -moving Oswald, what would be done before Oswald would be moved? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the homicide people were questioning -Oswald at that time? - -Mr. HARRISON. We didn't know they were. We assumed that they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there reporters running in and out of the office? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they talking about the events that were going on? - -Mr. HARRISON. They were mostly using the phone. They weren't talking to -us. They were mostly calling their home office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They were using the phone in your office? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to hear what they were saying over the -telephone? - -Mr. HARRISON. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. -There were three of us in there that morning. All we told them was to -leave us three lines open because we were pretty busy ourselves. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the next thing you recall in connection with the -movement of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. HARRISON. About, I would say, 3 or 4 or 5 minutes to 11. I went -down to the subbasement to get me some cigars, and as I come back up -out of the subbasement, well, then the officers out of our bureau were -going across from the elevator to the--to there in front of the jail -office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two basements, as I understand it, in the -Police and Courts Building. One is the basement level that the garage -is on and the jail office and the records room? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is a subbasement? - -Mr. HARRISON. Locker room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Locker room down below that. Now, how did you get down -from the third floor into the subbasement? Does the elevator go all of -the way down? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no; it stops at the floor where the jail office is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you get out of the jail office, where do -you have to go? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, actually to the south end. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk down to the hallway and then you open a door? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; you go down a stairway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go down a stairway? - -Mr. HARRISON. Into the subbasement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is, is there not, a doorway, as you walk from -Commerce Street down the steps to go to the door that entered into -the building and through the hallway that you had walked down? Do you -follow me? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's suppose that you walked from the record room to -the subbasement by way of the hallway that leads out towards Commerce -Street. - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that hallway has a door that goes out of the -building, does it not? - -Mr. HARRISON. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you open that door and go out of the building, -there are two other doors, right? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, isn't there a door on your--on your left as you face -Commerce Street, isn't there a door on your left that goes into the -engine room? - -Mr. HARRISON. Actually, I have never--I believe there is a door there. -It is underneath where the stairway goes up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a door straight ahead where the stairway -goes up? In other words, as you walk out of the door from the building -to leave the building and you step out of there, there is another door -right in front of you right under this stairs---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn't there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that door leads down to the subbasement, doesn't it? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I have never been down that way. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. From the assembly room, in the assembly room, -where is this cigar dispensing machine? - -Mr. HARRISON. They are not in the assembly room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Not in the assembly room, in the locker room. - -Mr. HARRISON. In the locker room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is it located? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know how to describe it to you. The machine is -about, I guess, 18 foot from the door--from the stairway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the far south end? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; it is kind of west of the stairway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. West of the stairway, but it is on the south side of the -room, it is on the side closest to Commerce Street? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; that is where all of the locker rooms are, lockers -are. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HARRISON. Now, there is a door that separates the locker room from -the area where the cold drinks and where the---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. HARRISON. Where the cold drinks and the cigar machine and the -cigarette machines are, there is a door that separates that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We are all talking about the same thing here. I am not -sure that Mr. MacMaster knows what we are talking about here. Would -you draw Main Street or draw Commerce Street up on one end, which is -convenient to you, and draw Harwood, and why don't you label them, -write "Main," "Commerce," and "Harwood" in the appropriate spots? All -right. Where is the doorway that you entered the locker room by, where -would that be? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, this being the stair down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. HARRISON. There is no door here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HARRISON. There is a wall approximately in this position and there -is a double door here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. HARRISON. All right. There is a big post here. It has a telephone -on it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. HARRISON. Cigar machine sits right here beside of this post. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. HARRISON. And the Dr. Pepper and coke machines are all up and down -this right side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What is in this area to the south of the -doorway? - -Mr. HARRISON. This? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. HARRISON. Lockers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw that in there, write that in there? Write -"Locker Room" or something. Did you have a locker in there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your locker located, approximately? - -Mr. HARRISON. Down here, however it hadn't been used in over 2-1/2 or 3 -years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody down here when you went down there to -get the cigars? - -Mr. HARRISON. There was no one down there when I went down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to go into the locker room? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after you got the cigars? - -Mr. HARRISON. Went back upstairs. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see anybody on the way up or down whom you -recognized as not being a newspaperman or a police officer. - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, at that time, there was no one in that immediate -area. The officers were going across from the elevator to the jail -office, the officers out of the juvenile bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you came up, you found the officers had left? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean had left the juvenile bureau, right? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, they were leaving the elevator coming across. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met them in the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. Met them in the basement, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you see there at that time? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was Miller, Lowery and Cutchshaw, Goolsby, -and I believe that was all out of our bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you saw them? - -Mr. HARRISON. One of them told me to come on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which one that was? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall who it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go with them? - -Mr. HARRISON. We stood in front of the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what happened as you waited around there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were waiting around to get--find out where they -were going to put us. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you finally get some instructions from somebody? - -Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Captain Jones that come in and told us -that--to come on out into the area there in the driveway, and he told -us that he wanted all of the newsmen on the east side of the drive and -that he wanted nothing but officers over in this corridor here and -where the--well, on the west wall, in other words. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let's go off of the record here. I want to find out. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this diagram that you have drawn here -Harrison Exhibit 5027, and I am going to ask you, Officer Harrison, if -you will just put in here "coke machine" or whatever these things are, -"cigar machine." - -Mr. HARRISON. This is a post here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A post. A support post. All right. Why don't you mark that -post, then? And then mark the area where the--okay. Now, and that is -"door." Okay. Now, would you sign that any place where you can get your -signature and then date it? - -(Recess.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We were at the point where you had come into the basement -area and seen the people coming down from the juvenile bureau. Before -you went down there, had you left word that you would be down in the -locker room? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I told Goolsby that I was going down and get me some -cigars. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you were down in the basement -that somebody gave you some instructions as to what was to be done? - -Mr. HARRISON. Captain Jones, I believe it was, had come out and told -us to go out into the ramp area, the garage, and to set--to put these -photographers and newspeople on the east side of the driveway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you take this map, diagram or chart (Harrison Exhibit -5028) which is--actually is a reduction of a chart that the Dallas -Police Department made for us some time ago and purports to represent -the basement area? You can see the jail office here? - -Mr. HARRISON. Uh-huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you can see Commerce Street over here and Main Street -here and the garage area here and the Main Street ramp going down -and the Commerce Street ramp going up, and this shows a solid wall -along Commerce Street here. Actually, this is the basement wall. The -basement extends out under the sidewalk, but if you were looking at -this at ground level, you would see this broken line is the wall of the -building. Now, directing your attention to the part that shows the exit -from the jail office and the ramps and the entrance into the garage, -can you mark on there what Captain Jones--how Captain Jones indicated -that the newspeople were to be displaced by the officers? - -Mr. HARRISON. He wanted them across along here on this side. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to put a series of "X's" or something along -there to show? - -Mr. HARRISON. You want to put "news"? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you might put some mark on there. This would be news -media, newspeople, also? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you mark that "news," also? Now, were there to -be any newspaper people from the northern side of the entrance to the -garage on up toward the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. There were some. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But what instructions did he give in that regard? - -Mr. HARRISON. He didn't. He just stated that he wanted them on the east -side of the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he say anything with respect to whether he wanted -them on the east side or the west side of the railing? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; he didn't specify that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that there were to be no news -media in this area other than the TV people? - -Mr. HARRISON. In this area right here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What about in the area to the north of where you have -placed the "X's"? Was it your understanding that---- - -Mr. HARRISON. There were floodlights standing here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you are placing circles on the map. Now, did he -give--go ahead. - -Mr. HARRISON. There were cameras here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he give instructions as to where the police -officers were to stand? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any instructions with respect to forming any -lines of police officers or anything like that? - -Mr. HARRISON. I didn't hear it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long was this before Lee Oswald was brought down -that these instructions were given? - -Mr. HARRISON. This was approximately, oh, maybe 10 or 11 minutes before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that 10 or 11 minutes? - -Mr. HARRISON. I took up a position in the ramp area here and assisted -with getting the newsmen on the east side of the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay in the same general area? - -Mr. HARRISON. I did; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate on the map by a circle and an "X" where -was it you were, generally? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Actually, Mr. MacMaster, if you feel like you would like -to recess this at some particular hour, let me know. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Let me suggest this. Do you have any idea how long this -interrogation will last? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wouldn't expect it to go more than 45 minutes. - -Mr. MacMASTER. More? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don't think it will go any longer than that, -however---- - -Mr. MacMASTER. What is your--would you just rather stay and finish? - -Mr. HARRISON. I would rather stay and finish. - -Mr. MacMASTER. All right. I wonder if I may make my one phone call here -on the phone? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure. - -Mr. HARRISON. May I ask you something here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let's wait until he finishes. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Well, let's go ahead. My 13-year-old daughter is on the -phone, so that is a career itself trying to get home. I am not going to -worry about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Feel free at any time to interrupt me. Go ahead. You -wanted to ask me. - -Mr. HARRISON. I made these two things setting too far away. Actually, -this camera was setting in this first aisle, one of them was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. HARRISON. The cameras were right in line here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were making an effort to steer these news people -over into this area and away from the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when Sam Pierce's car drove out? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; I do. I let the--I had to move the people back -out of the way. There was actually two cars went out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There were two cars? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me about that. - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was a patrolman went out that direction in a -squad car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that was? - -Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Mr. O'Dell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long before or after Pierce's car did he go out? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, it was some 3 or 4 or 5 minutes, something -like that, I am sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's focus on Mr. O'Dell's car, then. Was -anybody in the car with him? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what--for what purpose he went out? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What division is he assigned to? - -Mr. HARRISON. Radio patrol. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you aware, while you were down in the basement, -of anybody being dispatched to change the positioning of the people -along the street who were supposed to block off Elm Street? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any knowledge at all of how the route was to -go, how Oswald was to be conveyed? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any knowledge as to what was to be used -to convey him? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, when we got down there, they were bringing this -armored car, backing the armored car, into the south end or Commerce -Street side of the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall or would you have been in a position to see -whether the armored car was actually in the ramp when you arrived on -the scene? - -Mr. HARRISON. They were backing it in at the time that we came out into -the driveway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you able to tell whether it would appear that -it had just got to the ramp or how long it had been there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did O'Dell get his car from? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know that. The first time I noticed it was when -he came up here through the newsmen. I got them to move back where -he could get by, and then there was a couple of men standing up here -talking. I believe it was one of the--one of the supervisors talking to -a reserve captain, who was standing there. I believe it was Arnett. I -am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there were--at the time that O'Dell's car went out, -there were police officers in the direction of the Main Street ramp, -closer to Main Street than you were? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place on there all of the--all right. Let me -strike that. Go ahead. Tell me what you want to say. - -Mr. HARRISON. At the time that O'Dell's car came out, I was back here, -in this position here, to help get these men out of the way of the car, -and then it was shortly after that that I took up this position here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. All right. Now, at the time that O'Dell's car came -out--well, let's strike this. Prior to the time that O'Dell's car came -out, were you ever in this area here? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I was moving from this area around to here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. HARRISON. In other words, keeping---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Maybe we can do this sort of like a football -diagram. Why don't you put your initials right there? And down here why -don't you draw a circle and an "X" and just say, "Initial placement of -Harrison"? Now, why don't you draw an arrow to the general direction of -where you were and put a "1" and draw a circle around that, and then -down in the corner, put a "1" and a circle and put, "Position when -O'Dell's car started to move," if that is correct? Now, when O'Dell's -car moved, were there police officers between you and Main Street? - -Mr. HARRISON. There was--I believe there was a captain--I don't recall -who it was--I believe it was Captain Jones, though--talking to this -uniformed reserve captain. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Solomon? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; Arnett. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Arnett? - -Mr. HARRISON. In the Dallas reserves. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other police officers up in that general -direction? - -Mr. HARRISON. There were officers out in this area right in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to the area north of the entrance to the -jail? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, no; right along the side here. See, this was lined -with officers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The first place that you indicate to is the south wall of -the entranceway toward the jail office and up to the corner of the ramp -and then along the ramp, the east wall of the ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. West wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. West wall of the ramp toward Commerce Street? - -Mr. HARRISON. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is where there were police officers? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. And also that there were police officers along the -north wall of the entranceway leading toward the door of the jail -office, officers right in there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, as O'Dell's car moved up the ramp, what -did you do? - -Mr. HARRISON. I just moved these men back and--or asked them to move -back--and let him out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, did you watch his car go up the ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see what Jones and Arnett did? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. Well, I know they moved back out of the way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there news people strung across the Main Street ramp -who had to be moved out of the way in order to let O'Dell's car move -through? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not at that time, not on O'Dell's car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what then happened? Where did you then go after -O'Dell's car went up the ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. Back into my original area. It was about halfway between -the ramp and--the rail and the west wall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you looking around the area generally? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if anybody had come down the Main Street ramp while -you were standing there up until the time that Pierce's car went out, -would you have seen him come down? - -Mr. HARRISON. Would you repeat that, now? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If anybody had come down the Main Street ramp up to -the time, between the time that O'Dell's car left and the time that -Pierce's car went up, would you have seen the person who was coming -down there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't think I would have. I was facing more or less -back in this particular---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. At any time during those few minutes between -O'Dell's car leaving and Pierce's car leaving, did you look in the -direction of the Main Street ramp or over in the direction of the -garage area? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, if Jack Ruby had been in that area during that -period, would you have seen him? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know about that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, why do you say that? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether I would have seen him or not. It was -mass confusion, as far as people moving around in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But the confusion was over in the area at the entrance of -the garage, wasn't it? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And this area up the Main Street ramp was relatively clear? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you knew Jack Ruby well enough, certainly as well as -you know Mr. MacMaster, if you saw him just even briefly, you would -recognize him? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So if at any time you had looked over in that area and -Jack Ruby were there, you would have seen him, wouldn't you? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was very hard to see in this direction at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In the direction of the garage? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? - -Mr. HARRISON. In this position. These floodlights were very bright. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HARRISON. They had--I don't know how many they had. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were the floodlights on prior to the time that -Oswald came out? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they--try to think about this, now--were they on when -you first came into the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't believe they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they were taken--did you know whether or not, when -the armored car came down the Commerce Street ramp, the, TV cameras, -any of the TV cameras, were focused on that armored car? - -Mr. HARRISON. I didn't notice that. He didn't get all of the way down -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Rio Pierce's car moved out, were the -floodlights on? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that O'Dell's car moved out, were the TV -cameras--were the floodlights on? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether they were on or off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have any trouble seeing up in the direction -of the armored car? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And standing, from where you were, even in the center -of the entranceway toward the jail office, you could see up the ramp -toward the armored car and you could recognize the faces of people up -there, couldn't you? - -Mr. HARRISON. Possibly, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there--other than the little difficulty we all -experience with vision, either through age or what-not, was there -anything unusually difficult about looking up in the direction and -seeing in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far up the ramp was the armored car or how far -down the ramp, I should say? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't go up there, but it appeared to be setting -just backed into the doorway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say it was halfway down? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; it wasn't halfway down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there officers, police officers, standing up -there around the back of the armored car? - -Mr. HARRISON. I remember seeing Lieutenant Butler up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you distinguish these police officers from the -position in the middle of the entranceway to the jail office where you -have marked your initial, where you have marked your initial position -on the ramp here, could you, looking up towards Commerce Street, could -you distinguish the faces of the police officers up there, could you -recognize who they were, toward the armored car? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I recognized Lieutenant Butler, but I don't recall -seeing--now, Chief Batchelor was around the truck. They went in and out -of the truck there inspecting it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall seeing him up there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. And you didn't have any difficulty seeing -Batchelor from your position on the ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And presumably the same situation would prevail if you -looked up toward the Main Street ramp, isn't that right? - -Mr. HARRISON. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ever have occasion to look up toward the Main -Street ramp and see the police officer who was guarding the exit to the -ramp up there? - -Mr. HARRISON. There was a uniformed officer up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from where you were down here at what we have called -your initial position, on the time or times that you looked up toward -that uniformed officer up there, could you make out his face and -what-not? - -Mr. HARRISON. I never did see his face. All I could see was a man in -uniform up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, we have learned subsequently, and you have, too, I am -sure, that that was Officer Vaughn that was up there? - -Mr. HARRISON. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Vaughn before? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from where you were that it was -Vaughn up there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't know who it was up there. I could just see -his uniform and back. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it because he didn't turn his face to you? - -Mr. HARRISON. He was facing out when I looked up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel that, if he turned his face toward you, you would -have recognized who it was? - -Mr. HARRISON. I would probably have recognized him; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if the same thing is true, when you looked -up toward the Commerce Street entrance and the sidewalk, there were--do -you remember that there were officers guarding up there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I couldn't see any officers out there. It was -considerably darker up on this end of the ramp due to the fact that the -armored truck had the light blocked off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. HARRISON. I mean the vision, it was pretty well--the whole ramp -area was pretty well taken up by that truck? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let me make sure that I am clear on that. I don't -want to put words in your mouth. Is it fair to say that, if on any -occasion that you had to look up toward the Main Street ramp, if there -had been a man walking down that ramp, you or any other officer with -vision like yourself would have been able to recognize that person -coming down the ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether you could have recognized him or not -due to the fact that you were looking into sunlight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that is the north side of the building. - -Mr. HARRISON. That is on the north side of the building, but it was -very bright that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also had floodlights down in the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was bright in the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your eyes would be accustomed to those bright lights? - -Mr. HARRISON. A man coming down, if he got close to you, you could -recognize him, but just a man in a suit walking down that ramp, it -would have been hard to recognize. I will put it that way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would a man walking down from the Main Street side -have been any more difficult to recognize than a man that was standing -up in the position that Captain Butler was or Assistant Chief Batchelor -was? - -Mr. HARRISON. Batchelor and Butler, Lieutenant Butler. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been any more difficult to recognize a man -coming down the Main Street ramp than it would those two men coming up -the Commerce Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I believe it would have been, due to the glare in -your face. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you keeping an eye out generally for people, -news people, who might try to drift over into that area, and by "that -area," I am referring to the area along the Main Street ramp, across -the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. Would you ask that question again? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. HARRISON. And point out there, please. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. I am referring to the area that goes directly across -the Main Street ramp down to the base of the ramp. That area, as I -understand it, was supposed to be kept clear. Were you keeping an eye -out to make sure that people didn't congregate in there? - -Mr. HARRISON. There was several officers in this area right in here. -I don't know the names of them. I couldn't spot any of them for you. -There was one newsman, who had a microphone, immediately to my right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, your right as you faced in what direction? - -Mr. HARRISON. As I was facing south. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be toward Commerce Street? - -Mr. HARRISON. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At what point was there a man there? - -Mr. HARRISON. He was even with me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean at what time---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Oh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In this series of events. - -Mr. HARRISON. He was in that general area all of the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you keep an eye on him? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. I wasn't particularly watching him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other news people who were there in that -area? - -Mr. HARRISON. There was a Japanese photographer on my left, immediately -to my left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Officer Harrison, this position that you have -marked here as the initial position, is that also approximately the -position you were standing at the time that Oswald walked out? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So that, when you say on your left there, are -you talking about at the time that Oswald actually walked out, that is -where that Japanese photographer, newsman, was? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put an "X," if you would, put a small "J" on -that map where that man was and put a circle around it. Now, that is -where the Japanese photographer was standing at the time that Oswald -walked out---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? Now, where was this man with the microphone -standing? - -Mr. HARRISON. He was immediately to my right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put an "M" and a circle around him? Now, -were there any other police officers over in this general area where -you 3 people were? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the other police officers? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when Rio Pierce's car came out, what did -you do? - -Mr. HARRISON. I got these people to move back out of the way and let -him through, and I stepped back to the rail, toward the lights there -and let him through. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you have your back to the railing or -were you facing the railing? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I had my back to the railing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch Pierce's car go up the ramp at all? - -Mr. HARRISON. I watched it until it cleared the people in that -immediate area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were there to clear out in that immediate -area, would you say? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was seven or eight, I would say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't say there were as many as 20 or 25, would you? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were those people all newspaper people, members of -the press, or were there some police officers? - -Mr. HARRISON. There were some police officers in that area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, at the time that Oswald actually came out of -the jail office, how many lines of people, would you say, were strung -along in that area that you were? Was there more than one line of -people? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Now, where are you referring to? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, as Oswald walked out, there was a line -of people that came from the north---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Northwest. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What corner are we going to call that, northwest or -northeast? I think this would be the west. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Northwest, that is right, isn't it? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to put "Northwest corner" here so we will know -what we are talking about. There was a line of people, was there not, -from what I have marked the northwest corner of the Main Street wall -all of the way over to you and then around here? No? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am honestly trying to find out here how these -people were lined up. - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, due to these lights and the cameras being here, -this area was open. There was, like I say, this Japanese, and there was -another man or two in that area here, whom I don't--I don't have any -idea who he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just put a couple of question marks there. Okay. - -Mr. HARRISON. And behind me, there were--not immediately behind me, but -back in this area---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. HARRISON. Toward the west wall, there was police and also Captain -Arnett of the reserves standing--he was standing fairly close to me -behind me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Captain Arnett? Put an "A" where you think he -was and then put a circle around that. - -Mr. HARRISON. He was in that general area somewhere. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Oswald walked out? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I believe he was. I am not---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him there about that time? - -Mr. HARRISON. I remember seeing the uniform there, and he was the -captain who was in the uniform down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember seeing these people over here at that -time? - -Mr. HARRISON. They were--yes; they were there. There were, I believe, -two people right in here and there were the cameramen behind the rail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Blackie, do you remember this from actual memory of what -happened or do you remember this from having seen the photographs, the -films? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I remember these people on my left here and the -ones here on my right. I remember this man with a microphone very -distinctly because, when they brought him out, these fellows back here -hollered for me to move the line back, which I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember if there were any people directly -behind you? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; not that I recall. I remember I spread my arms out -and backed the group up where these cameras could get a clear shot of -him coming out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is it fair to say that, if there had been people in -back of you, you would have either known it because you were looking -around there or because you would have wanted to have cleared them out -or would have been worried about it or anything like that? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I wouldn't necessarily have seen them, because I -was watching this line across here to keep them from going forward into -the path of this--of where Oswald was coming out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at any time after Rio Pierce's car went up that ramp, -did you look in the direction of the ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any other officers look in the direction of -the ramp during that period? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were over here, as Rio Pierce's car drove -out, were other officers lined up along---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The other wall? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And, to your knowledge, were any of them looking out in -this direction toward the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. I didn't notice any of them looking out that way. They -could have been. There was--I know, when they brought Oswald out, -Lowery was standing right here on the--on this corner. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you put a mark, put an "L" there where Lowery was? -Did you at any time, now, did you see Jack Ruby in this basement at any -time before he shot Oswald? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not before he shot Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were standing here, did you feel a man pressing -up against your back? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you have seen the photographs, haven't you? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you saw where Jack came from? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody that you know of that saw Ruby there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to anybody that indicated to you that he -saw Ruby there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I sure haven't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I grabbed him and more or less went to the floor -with him and then we took him on into the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with him in the jail office? - -Mr. HARRISON. Until he was handcuffed, and I went upstairs on the -elevator with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with him upstairs? - -Mr. HARRISON. I didn't. I left him at the elevator. McMillon and Archer -went back, took him on back to the cell, and I went back down on the -elevator to the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do--you weren't present, were you, when Jack -was stripped and searched? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back down to the basement, where did you go? - -Mr. HARRISON. I went back out into the ramp area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you--how long did you remain in the ramp area? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was about--until after the ambulance left with -Oswald, and then the captain--I believe it was Captain Jones--sent me -up to the first floor to see that no one come in there in that--on -the first floor that wasn't authorized. We were given orders to stop -everyone and see if they were going out of the building to find out who -they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts did you station yourself on the first floor? - -Mr. HARRISON. I was right there in front of the elevators, at the -elevator door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there alone? - -Mr. HARRISON. There was--well, there was three or four more officers on -that floor. There was one at every door and exit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Miller up there with you? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall where Miller was at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Lowery up there with you? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Cutchshaw? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether they were or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody while you were up there or before -you got up there concerning how Ruby got into the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I told Chief Batchelor, just after I come back -downstairs from taking him up--I told Chief Batchelor that I thought -he come from behind those cameras over there, but--and that is where I -thought he come from at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why did you think he came from behind the cameras? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was--he came from my left, and I don't see -how he could get down the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you feel that way? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I knew there was an officer on the ramp and I just -didn't feel like he could have gotten down there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you also feel that you would have seen him if he had -come down that ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, not necessarily; because I wasn't looking toward the -ramp all of the time. I never--had I been turned where I could have -seen the ramp all of the time, I may have seen him coming down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack had been in that--were you moving around such -after Rio Pierce's car moved that, if Jack had been down there in the -basement area, you would have seen him? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not necessarily; it is possible that he could have been -down there and I wouldn't have seen him because he had been back over -in this group of newsmen. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; but if he had been in the area of the ramp, if -he had been up in this area where you were and around up toward the -Main Street ramp, would you have seen him if he had been in there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I might have. I don't--I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There weren't enough news people milling around up in that -area to have obscured him, were there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Not in that immediate area; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, if anybody had been turning and looking up -toward the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper -people in there to have obscured the sight of Jack Ruby? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't suppose there would have been. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. I want to -make this very clear. I am giving you a direct question like this, but -if you feel differently, I want to know if you disagree with me. I am -asking a leading question here, but I want to make sure that I am not -leading---- - -Mr. HARRISON. What was the question again? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had been in this area at the base of the Main -Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people there? -The fact that there were newspaper people around wouldn't have obscured -the sight of him from anybody that was looking up in that direction? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't think it would have obscured him, had they been -looking in that direction. Now, I did, as I said a while ago, I have -looked at some films, and I did look to my left, oh---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By "left," you mean up in the direction of the Main Street -ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. When this guy hollered to me to move the crowd back, I -looked to my left and backed the people up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Your left would be up in the direction of the Main Street -ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; it would be toward the cameras. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Toward the cameras? - -Mr. HARRISON. Television cameras, yes; over in this direction. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as you looked over there, you didn't see Jack Ruby? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember looking over there like that or do you -only remember it from having seen the photograph? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; when they hollered, I glanced over there to see where -we were in trying to---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. HARRISON. In trying to get out of line of those cameras. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember, as you looked over there, whether -you had any difficulty in seeing people over in that area? - -Mr. HARRISON. There wasn't anyone in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In front of the cameras? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; there was no one in front of the cameras. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say would be the total number of people, -including newspaper people and police officers, who were strung from -the northwest corner over toward the cameras at the time Oswald came -out? - -Mr. HARRISON. I would say maybe eight or nine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. How long did you remain up there by those -elevators? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was, I imagine, 45 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you left the elevators? - -Mr. HARRISON. Went back upstairs to the bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bureau, now, juvenile bureau? - -Mr. HARRISON. Juvenile bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. HARRISON. We stayed there until they told us to--Captain Jones told -us to go up to homicide bureau and write a report as to what we saw and -what we did on this thing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did Captain Jones give the instructions to -write a report to everybody? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, he told--I didn't hear him give it to everybody. He -told me and Cutchshaw and Lowery to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller up there at the time? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether Miller was there or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that Jones was trying to contact -everybody to get them to write a report as quickly as possible? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, I don't know about that. He came up there and -told me to report back to the bureau, and when we got to the bureau, -well, he told--came in and told Lowery, myself, and Cutchshaw--I -remember that very distinctly--to go into Captain Fritz' office and -write a report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time would you say you wrote that report? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me ask you this, then. Maybe this will place it. -After you wrote that report, you went out to Love Field, didn't you? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you estimate that you went to Love -Field? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were supposed to be out there when Mayor -Cabell's plane left. I believe it was at 5:20, and we left the city -hall shortly after 4 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left the city hall, did you make--did you report -in with the dispatcher or anything like that? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; there was no--we went out in two separate cars and -we went to--started up Harwood Street, and they gave Lowery a call to -return to the station, and Captain Martin met us there in the basement -and briefed us as to what to do out at Love Field. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. - -Mr. HARRISON. And then we headed on out to Love Field. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But, on this question, I understand you that -there would not be any record in the office, such as a dispatcher's -record or something like that, that would show when you left for Love -Field, or would there? - -Mr. HARRISON. There would be a record of what time he gave Lowery that -call to return to the station. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And that was a call from captain who? - -Mr. HARRISON. Martin. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had already started out---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And turned around and came back? Okay; now, how much time -elapsed between the time that you finished--well, strike that. Did you -finish writing the report in the homicide office? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between when you finished that -report in the homicide office and you got in your car to go out to Love -Field? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it right away or did you go back to the juvenile -bureau? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, we went back to the juvenile bureau; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there an original copy--you wrote that report by -hand, didn't you? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, and is that--I am going to call a halt here and I -am going to mark a couple of exhibits. All right. I am going to hand -you, Mr. Harrison, what I have marked as Exhibit No. 5030. Now, this is -a copy of a letter, which you apparently signed and was addressed to -Chief Curry dated November 24. Now, let me ask you, did you write that -out in hand first? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know whether your office has retained -handwritten copies of those reports? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. It was--I am sure it was thrown away. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who did you turn your handwritten copy over to? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know who typed it up. I know this was signed and -sent in by, I think, Lieutenant Wallace. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you do this for me? After we finish here, -would you check with Captain Martin and Lieutenant Wallace and find -out from them if the handwritten copies of the things--of your report, -handwritten copy of your report, is available---- - -Mr. HARRISON. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If it has been retained? I believe that you will find that -many of these were retained. There are other officers who have been -able to get these for us. - -Mr. HARRISON. Uh-huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And so I am inclined to believe that it is probably -available someplace, and if you will get that and turn it over to us, I -would appreciate that very much. We will make a copy of it and return -the original to the department, but I would like a copy of that. Now, -do you remember whether or not--do you remember any of the people who -were in the homicide office when you filled out that report? - -Mr. HARRISON. Cutchshaw, myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any of the homicide people who were there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Fritz was there? - -Mr. HARRISON. He was in and out of there during the time that we were -in there, but I don't recall how long he stayed or anything like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Montgomery was there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, Montgomery was in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know about Montgomery being there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I know Montgomery very well. In fact, I used to be -close neighbors to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. HARRISON. And I do remember him being in there. I remember that -very clearly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Montgomery at all about what had -happened down in the basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in the juvenile bureau, before you left to -go to Love Field, did you hear any rumors as to how Ruby got in the -basement? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. They were talking about--Lowery said that he thought -that he may have come by with a camera that was moved across just prior -to the time that Pierce's car went out, and they were talking about the -number of men who were on that camera, the particular camera. And--but -that is the only discussion I heard as to how he may have got in there. -For some time there, we thought that may have been the way he got in, I -mean the men in my particular bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Lowery first tell you that? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, he had started talking about this when we were in -the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And while you were in the basement, did you hear any other -rumors as to how he got in? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; sure didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as long as you were at the juvenile bureau, did you -hear any rumor about his coming down the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer McMillon on the day before you -went to the juvenile bureau and after Ruby was shot--I mean Oswald was -shot? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Archer? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, they went up on the elevator with me, I found -out later, but I didn't see them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Clardy? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't remember whether Clardy was on there or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Dean? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall if Dean was on there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Dean at any time on the 24th after -Ruby was shot--Oswald was shot? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, I didn't talk with Dean at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any people in the patrol division---- - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Afterward? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time on Sunday, that is, the day that Oswald was -shot, did you hear the rumor that Ruby came down the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back--what time did you get back to the -juvenile bureau on Friday--I mean on Sunday? - -Mr. HARRISON. It was well after 6 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--when you got back there, did you talk with -anybody about how Ruby might have got in? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I went on home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any discussion from anybody---- - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From anybody about how--well, weren't people generally -discussing this? - -Mr. HARRISON. I suppose they were, but I was tired, and I went home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't this a big topic of conversation back there at this -time? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you got back on Monday morning--did you -come in Monday morning? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you begin to talk with people about how Ruby got in? - -Mr. HARRISON. I suppose I did, but I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall hearing the rumor -that he came down the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, it would have been possibly Monday. I was off -Tuesday and Wednesday. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did McMillon ever tell you at any time that--have you -talked with McMillon about this, these events, at any time since Sunday -the 24th? - -Mr. HARRISON. We have had some discussion, but I don't recall what it -was. Of course, we have talked to several. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Dean at any time? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; I have never talked to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you friendly to Dean? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; he is in the radio patrol, and I very seldom see the -man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How about Archer? - -Mr. HARRISON. Archer, he is in the auto bureau. I see him occasionally. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Clardy? - -Mr. HARRISON. Occasionally; I see him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have any of these men told you since the--since the -time that Oswald was shot by Ruby that Ruby told them that he came in -through the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. HARRISON. They never did tell me that, none of them. Now---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first--go ahead. - -Mr. HARRISON. I heard, after the trial down there--I heard them -discussing, of course, the evidence that was brought out, and they -said that he had made the statement that he came in that way. And when -Lieutenant Wallace and Lieutenant McCaghren were making their followup -investigation, which I don't know how many days it was after, they had -talked that he had, or suggested that he had, come down the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they had suggested this? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, they had, through their investigation, more or -less, they had kind of--I guess you would make a theory out of it that -he had come down the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't mean that they suggested it, but this is the -inference or the conclusion that they drew? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what I would like for you to do is, if you would, -sign Exhibit 5028 and date it. - -Mr. HARRISON. This is the 25th, isn't it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. Isn't it? Yes. I might say for the record, so -that Mr. MacMaster understands, part of the procedures here now permit -you to ask any questions that you want of Mr. Harrison, and I am going -to just ask him to identify, sign these documents, identify them, and -ask him specifically whether he has any changes that he would want to -make on these, particularly on these reports and statements, and I am -prepared to accommodate myself to your time on this, if you feel that -you want to ask some questions. If you prefer to adjourn for dinner, or -something like that, and come back, I would be happy to do that, and -resume it later on this evening. - -Mr. HARRISON. I would rather go ahead with it, if it is agreeable with -you all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn't make any difference with me. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Mr. Harrison, on Exhibit 5026, I believe that was the -first exhibit. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Twenty-seven. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Twenty-seven. That is just a reference to the basement -area. Is that the police recreation room or locker room? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. MacMASTER. That is just a rough hand drawing, you didn't intend -that to be exact to scale in any way? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. - -Mr. MacMASTER. That is all. At the time you were down in the basement -area and they brought Oswald down, with the police security measures -that were in effect, you wouldn't have any reason to believe that any -unauthorized person would enter into the area, would you---- - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Because of the police measures in effect at that time---- - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Security measures? In other words, any other -unauthorized persons in the area, in other words, Ruby, would be a big -surprise to you? - -Mr. HARRISON. It would; yes. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Was it a surprise to you to see an unauthorized person -down there the first time when he came around you? - -Mr. HARRISON. It certainly was. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Now, on extra duty for police officers, isn't it a -standard departmental policy that you can't work on off-duty work at -anyplace serving alcoholic beverages? - -Mr. HARRISON. That is correct. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Is that the chief's direct order? - -Mr. HARRISON. That is a direct order. They have special officers for -that type of work. - -Mr. MacMASTER. But it is in the nature of regular police duty, that is, -special officers? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. MacMASTER. But you can't, that is, in civilian clothes, you can't -work anyplace in an off-duty status for extra money in anyplace serving -alcoholic beverages? - -Mr. HARRISON. That is right; either in uniform or out of uniform. - -Mr. MacMASTER. That is all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Harrison, I wonder if you would look at what I have -marked as Exhibits 5029, 5030, and 5031. Five thousand twenty-nine is -a report of an interview of two FBI agents, Wilkinson and Hardin, had -with you on December 5, 1963; Exhibit 5030 is a copy of a statement or -a letter, which you addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, -entitled, "Subject: Shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald," and Exhibit 5031 is -a copy of--is a report of an interview that Agent Bookhout, [spelling] -B-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, had with you on November 24, 1963. Have you looked -over these statements today? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to make any changes or corrections or -additions in there in those statements, keeping in mind the testimony -that has already been given here today? - -Mr. HARRISON. This on Mr. Bookhout's interview, which was over the -telephone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was? - -Mr. HARRISON. It was over the telephone. I was at Love Field when -this---- - -Mr. MacMASTER. To identify that, that is Exhibit 5031 you are referring -to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; let me ask you a question there. Do you know how -Bookhout reached you there? - -Mr. HARRISON. I had called in to see how long they wanted us to stay -out there, and Lieutenant Coulon identified Mr. Bookhout to me over the -phone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Bookhout ask you, or did anybody ask you, if any -other officers were out there with you? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Bookhout talk to those officers over the phone, -also? - -Mr. HARRISON. No; he did not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. HARRISON. But this one little part right here, I don't recall -saying that at all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What part is that? - -Mr. HARRISON. "Saved a lot of people some trouble." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, all right. Now, is it possible that you could have -said that to him? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't think I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that you don't think you did? - -Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't hear it. I mean I heard him say this very -plain. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. "I hope I killed the SOB," you heard him say that? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't hear him state, "And saved a lot of people -some trouble"? - -Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall hearing that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you do this? Would you take a pen and -would you put a parenthesis around from "and" to the end of that -sentence, and then would you write in there, "I don't believe I stated -that," or whatever you believe that reflects your opinion at this time? -Would you initial that? - -Mr. HARRISON. I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And date it. It is the 25th day. Now, are there any other -changes or additions or corrections you would make on there? - -Mr. HARRISON. Oh, on this, where it says, "You all know me, I am Jack -Ruby, made that several times," he didn't make the statement but once, -actually and I don't know where this "several times" came from. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Was that just once in your presence? - -Mr. HARRISON. Yes. - -Mr. MacMASTER. In other words, while you were around and near Jack -Ruby, is the only time you heard him was just one time? - -Mr. HARRISON. One time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you cross out "several times" and -write "once"? And why don't you initial it and date it? Anything else -on there? - -Mr. HARRISON. No. It all seems to be---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, sign each of those. - -Mr. HARRISON. Where? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, put it down on the same page that I have marked the -exhibit, some place where it is legible. Why don't you put it down at -the bottom of the page and date it? - -Mr. HARRISON. All of them? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well, not every page. Just every page that I have -marked as an exhibit. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Is that all now? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all that I have got. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Do you have any more? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I do have one other question to ask here. - -Mr. MacMASTER. Okay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I or any member of the Commission staff talked with -you prior to this deposition? - -Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HAROLD B. HOLLY, JR. - -The testimony of Harold B. Holly, Jr., was taken at 8 p.m., on March -26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold B. Holly, Jr. Mr. -Holly, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the staff of the -general counsel to the President's Commission on the Assassination of -President Kennedy. - -Under the authority of the Presidential Proclamation 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules -of procedure that have been adopted by the Commission, I have been -authorized to take your deposition under oath. Now, the general nature -of the inquiry of the Commission is to ascertain the facts concerning -the death of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, the inquiry is to determine what facts you -know concerning these events, or anything related to them. - -I advise you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, you have -a right to a 3-day written notice prior to being asked to come for a -deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that -right if he wishes to do so. - -You have been asked to come because Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the general -counsel of the Commission, wrote a letter to Mr. J. E. Curry asking -that he make you available. But I repeat, you may either waive the -3-day notice, or if you wish you may insist on the 3-day notice. Do you -wish to waive that notice? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; I would like to go ahead. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean yes, you wish to waive? You would rather go ahead? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand. Do -you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HOLLY. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your full name, sir? - -Mr. HOLLY. Harold B. Holly, Jr. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you? - -Mr. HOLLY. Forty-seven. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live? - -Mr. HOLLY. 3429 Antilles, Mesquite. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mesquite, it is not in Dallas? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; it is Mesquite, Tex., a suburb. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are actually a reserve officer of the Dallas -police? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the reserves? - -Mr. HOLLY. Five years, going on six. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation in civilian life? - -Mr. HOLLY. General contractor and cabinetwork. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you own your own business? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir. Nineteen years. - -Mr. HUBERT. In that business? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I know that you performed some services as a reserve -officer on the 22d and 23d, but our inquiry now is as to the functions -you performed on the 24th, or perhaps you didn't perform? - -Mr. HOLLY. Let's say the 23d and the 24th. The assassination took place -the 23d, right? - -Mr. HUBERT. No, 22d. - -Mr. HOLLY. 22d and 23d. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was a Saturday. I am asking about Sunday the 24th. - -Mr. HOLLY. I was up here all day Saturday. Sunday, I didn't -participate, as well as I can remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had not anticipated being called? - -Mr. HOLLY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you, in fact, called on Sunday? - -Mr. HOLLY. I don't recall now. It is pretty vague there. The day of -assassination I was called, and the day Oswald was shot, I was called. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, that was the 24th of November, a Sunday. - -Mr. HOLLY. Sunday. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, how were you called? - -Mr. HOLLY. I beg your pardon, I was here Friday. Friday, Saturday, and -Sunday; I sure was. - -Mr. HUBERT. And at what time were you called on Sunday the 24th the day -Oswald was shot? - -Mr. HOLLY. It was the morning. I believe it was around 9 o'clock and -they called and said for me to report downtown. They were going to try -to move him out around 2 o'clock. I immediately come to town. - -Mr. HUBERT. You got into uniform? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes; and at the present time, I don't recall, because I got -down about 5 minutes after he was shot. I reported for duty at the -entrance of the Main Street entrance to the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had already been shot? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you speak who gave you that information? - -Mr. HOLLY. Lieutenant Kriss. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any assignment? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. I was assigned to direct traffic and keep traffic from -bogging down in front of the city hall entrance. And I stayed there -approximately 30 minutes, and then I was reassigned out at Parkland -Hospital. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you go out there? - -Mr. HOLLY. By the convenience of the city. We was hauled out in a squad -car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go out with any group? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I went out with a group. There were five in our group. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you out there? - -Mr. HOLLY. I was there approximately 3 hours. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you in that group? - -Mr. HOLLY. Well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the names? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; I don't. I don't recall none of the names, because I -wasn't familiar with any of the boys. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you remember that during the time that you were out -at Parkland Hospital another reserve officer approached you and stated -that he had seen the man who shot Oswald coming down the ramp? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; he didn't approach me, because I approached him. I -went over to find where I could get some water. I was stationed where -the entrance is where the Governor was, and he told me there was some -coffee and water if I wanted, and I went in and when I came back I -struck up a conversation with the man, and we were talking about---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he a reserve officer? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes; he was a reserve. And in the conversation he said -that he either knew or he saw Ruby down in the city hall, knew of him -getting down in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he speaking, from what you could tell, of Ruby being -down in there on the morning that Oswald was assassinated? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. I asked him--the conversation went like, well, how in -the world could they ever let him in. Everybody knew him, which most -reserves do know him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You knew him? - -Mr. HOLLY. Oh, yes; I knew him. I did business with him. And I would -know him if I saw him. But I wasn't stationed down there, so therefore, -I don't know. - -And he said he saw him down there, or did see of him, or he in someway, -one of the reserves had let him in, and he had a lapel pass on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know who he was, this reserve? - -Mr. HOLLY. No. I tried to go through the photographs of who I thought -it was. I never have learned if it was him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did pick out a person? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the man you picked out? - -Mr. HOLLY. No. Captain Solomon mentioned his name, but I don't recall -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Newman refresh your memory? - -Mr. HOLLY. Newman? It's been so long ago. I wouldn't say. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there any doubt about your identification? - -Mr. HOLLY. Well, other than I described the man to him, and, of course, -I went over the photographs with Captain Solomon on Sunday. - -Mr. HUBERT. A week later? - -Mr. HOLLY. On that following Sunday after the date. No; it was a week -later. I beg your pardon. It was a week later, and I met him up there -Sunday, and we went over the photographs with men in their uniforms, -and the boy I picked out, Captain Solomon said, "Well, that is one of -the men that is down in the basement," and that is the only one I could -think it could have been. - -And he contacted the man and the man was hunting at that time, and I -never did hear of any more of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I mean is, the man you did pick out, is there -any doubt in your mind that you picked out the man you spoke to at the -hospital who told you he had seen Ruby? - -Mr. HOLLY. There is a little doubt there, yes. I wouldn't be too -positive of it. But I feel---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen this man since? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; I haven't seen him since. I didn't know him and never -had seen him before that. But I am pretty positive I picked out the -right man, the one that I did see and talk to. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get you straight. You say that you -are pretty positive that you did pick out the right man, but a little -while before you said that you weren't quite sure? There is a little -difference between the two? - -Mr. HOLLY. I went over several photographs with Captain Solomon and he -is the only one that resembles him. - -The photographs he showed me were old photographs, so there was a -little doubt there, and that is the only part I can be doubted on. - -I think he said the photographs he showed me were maybe 3 years old. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't get the man and confront you with him? - -Mr. HOLLY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was this man that you saw a youngish man or middle age or -what? - -Mr. HOLLY. I would say he was in his thirties, about 37 years old or 36 -years old. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he a little husky? - -Mr. HOLLY. He was about 165 or 170, about 5'8" or 9", and blue eyes and -bald headed. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had on a cap? - -Mr. HOLLY. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had on a hat? - -Mr. HOLLY. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, the way I see it, among those pictures that Captain -Solomon showed you, you picked out the man you thought was the man? - -Mr. HOLLY. I still think it was the same man that Captain Solomon--he -didn't tell me prior, but after I picked him out, he said that is the -only man it could have been, because he was down in the basement, and -the way I described it, it fitted the description I had given. He did -explain after it was over that the photographs were about 3 years old. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that you passed on the information that this -reserve officer had given you to someone, did you not? - -Mr. HOLLY. How was that? - -Mr. HUBERT. You reported to someone that a reserve officer had told you? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did you report it to? - -Mr. HOLLY. I reported it to the CID officer, I guess it was, down on -the first or second floor of the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who it was? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; it was lieutenant someone, through one of the detectives. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which detective was that? - -Mr. HOLLY. Detective Eberhardt. I gave the information to one of the -stenographers up in burglary and theft division, and I typed it out and -sent it on down to the lieutenant. Offhand, I don't recall his name. It -was one of the investigators on the case. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you contacted to make a statement about your -activities? - -Mr. HOLLY. The subject, how it come up, one of the detectives was out -at the house, and the subject came up that they were trying to find out -how in the world Ruby ever got down in the basement. And I said, "Well, -my Lord, one of the reserves let him in." - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that? - -Mr. HOLLY. I would say that was on about a Wednesday or Thursday after -the accident. And he said, "Will you make a statement?" And I said, "I -will be glad to." - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you make a written statement, or was it just oral? - -Mr. HOLLY. Oral statement and I signed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they write it up in the form of an interview, or did he -write it for your signature as a letter to the chief? - -Mr. HOLLY. A letter to the--it went through--I don't know what -procedure it did go through. I just don't know the hand it went into. - -Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of identification, we will see if we can -determine whether the written reports you have just been speaking of -is one of these, one that I have here. And also in order to get the -contents of these two reports into the record, I am going to identify -them by marking the first one as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit -No. 5109, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr.," and I am signing my name on -the margin. I notice that it has a second page with two lines, and I am -putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner. - -The other document is a document consisting of five pages, being an -interview, or the report of an interview by two FBI agents, Mr. Dallman -and Mr. Quigley. I am marking that as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, -Exhibit No. 5110, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr." I am signing my name -on the first page and putting my initials on the second, third, fourth, -and fifth pages. I would like you, Mr. Holly, if you will, please to -read all these, and I want to ask you about the correctness of each -one. So I would like you to read it carefully and after you have done -so, I will ask you to make any comments you want as to the correctness, -make any changes you want, if it is not correct, because neither of -these are your own statements. This is what other people said you said. -Then I want to find out, too, if there is another report that you, -yourself, signed, because they don't purport to be signed by you. So, -would you do that, please? - -Mr. HOLLY. [Reads report.] - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Holly, I have shown you, and I think you have -read now the exhibits which I have identified as No. 5109, being a -report of an interview of you by Jack Revill, said report being made -to Chief of Police Curry in a letter dated December 1, 1963. Does that -substantially represent what you said? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is anything wrong about it? - -Mr. HOLLY. The only thing I can see wrong is, the report wasn't made -right after the assassination. It was about 5 days afterwards. That is -the only thing I can see. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, this doesn't say when the report was made. -Oh, you mean the report about having heard that? - -Mr. HOLLY. To Lieutenant Revill there. I believe he corrected that, but -it wasn't made right after. Statement says that I made a statement to -Sergeant Eberhart. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don't see anything in 5109 that indicates you made this -report about talking to that man the next day. As a matter of fact, -I don't see where this report of an interview by Revill attempts to -indicate the day on which you reported that this reserve officer had -said these things to you. - -I think the other document does that. Well, let's look at 5110, which -is the FBI report of interview, I think. - -Mr. HOLLY. I believe it was in the FBI report there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on the third page there is of Exhibit 5110, in the -last paragraph, there is the following language. "He relayed this -information to a close personal friend of his, Detective Gus Eberhardt, -who is a regular officer assigned to the burglary and theft bureau. He -believed he told Eberhardt this on the following day." Is that the part -you think is not correct? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; that is not correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you, then? - -Mr. HOLLY. It was about the Sunday. It was about Thursday of that week, -approximately Thursday of that week, he come out to the house, and I -was going to ride with him that night, and he made the statement that -he was trying to find out as to how Ruby entered the city hall, and I -said, "Well, the information you have there I passed on to him." And he -said, "Will you make a signed statement to that effect." And I said, "I -would be glad to." - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you then and there---- - -Mr. HOLLY. I immediately rode to the city hall and made a report, made -a statement to the secretary there in the burglary and theft division. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, let me get another book and perhaps we can get -that in too. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -I am now marking for identification a document which is Commission -Document 81A.48. It is apparently a copy of a letter dated November -29, 1963, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, by A. M. -Eberhardt, Detective. The copy seems to be signed in ink by A. M. -Eberhardt. For identification, I am marking that document, although I -am not removing it from this file, and "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, -Exhibit No. 5111, Deposition of H. B. Holly." I am signing my name, -Leon D. Hubert, Jr. That document consists of only one page. - -Now, going back for a moment to 5110, that is the FBI report, I think -you said that you had read it and that you found it correct, that it is -probably a correct record of the interview you had with the FBI agents, -except that it was in error when it stated that you had conveyed -this information to Eberhart on the day after Oswald was shot. Your -recollection was that it was Thursday of that week? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. This letter indicates, Exhibit 5111, indicates that that -information was passed on to Eberhardt on November 29, which I believe -was a Thursday. - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I don't remember if that is dated or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is dated November 29. - -Mr. HOLLY. That was a Wednesday or Thursday after the shooting? - -Mr. HUBERT. The 29th or November 1963, was a Friday night. Could it -have been Friday night? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes; it could have been. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, this Exhibit 5111, you think, is the report -that you were speaking of a little while ago in your deposition? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes; that is the only report that I made to Detective -Eberhardt. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you thought you had signed it. - -Mr. HOLLY. I thought I signed that. That is the one right there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5111 is the one you were talking about? - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you had the recollection of having signed it? Of -course, here we have only a copy of it. - -Mr. HOLLY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did sign the original, but it doesn't -indicate that there was a space for you to sign. - -Mr. HOLLY. I was thinking I signed it. - -Mr. HUBERT. There was no other report than this one here? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; no other report other than the one that I talked to -Lieutenant Revill about. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other statements or comments to make -concerning any part of this? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; I have covered it pretty well, I think. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any others than this -deposition today? - -Mr. HOLLY. No, sir; this is the first time I ever met or seen you. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any other members of the -President's Commission, do you know? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; other than the FBI, two FBI officers. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about persons who identified themselves as -members of the Commission? - -Mr. HOLLY. No; none whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much. - -Mr. HOLLY. That is all right. I am glad to be of service. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HARRY M. KRISS - -The testimony of Harry M. Kriss was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 26, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harry Kriss. Mr. Kriss, my -name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general -counsel of the Commission. Under the provisions of the President's -Executive Order 11130, dated November 23, 1963, and the joint -resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by -the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint -resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Kriss, the nature of the -inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death -of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general -inquiry. Now, Mr. Kriss, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a -general request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff -of the President's Commission to Mr. J. E. Curry, the chief of police, -who was asked to make all of you gentlemen available to us. Under the -rules adopted by the Commission, however, you were entitled to a 3-day -written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules -also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he wishes to -do so. Are you willing to waive? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes; I will waive. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand so as to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to -tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. KRISS. So help me God. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name? - -Mr. KRISS. Harry M. Kriss [spelling] K-r-i-s-s. M is the initial. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please? Your age? - -Mr. KRISS. Fifty-three. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir? - -Mr. KRISS. 6906 Merrilee Lane. - -Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas? - -Mr. KRISS. In Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are a reserve officer, are you not? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; in Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation in general? - -Mr. KRISS. Occupation in general, manufacturer of sportswear, men's, -and manufacturer of neckwear. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Dallas? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been in the reserve? - -Mr. KRISS. Eleven years. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, were you called on November 24, 1963? - -Mr. KRISS. Well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the Sunday after the President's death. - -Mr. KRISS. That is Sunday after--yes, sir; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were at home at the time? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; I was getting ready to play golf. Four or five -more minutes and I'd have been gone. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were called to report? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And when you did report, did you report in uniform? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes; surely I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, Mr. Kriss, I am showing you here two documents which -concern what you have already had to say about the matter. - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think we can save considerable time if I'll ask you -to identify these and comment upon them, but before doing so I wish to -identify them as exhibits so that we can speak of them in those terms. - -Mr. KRISS. Okay. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, on the letter, or copy of a letter dated -November 26, addressed to J. E. Curry, the original of which, I -suppose, was signed by you, I am marking it for identification, -"Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5106. Deposition of H. M. -Kriss." I will put "reserve officer." I will sign my name to that, -and I note that this Exhibit 5106 consists of one page only. The next -document is a report of an interview made December 3, 1963, with you by -the FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin and it consists of two pages. I am -marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5107. -Deposition of H. M. Kriss." Or, rather, "reserve officer", and I am -signing my name on the first page and placing my initials in the lower -right-hand corner of the second page. Now, Mr. Kriss, you have read -both of these statements I believe? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are these substantially correct? - -Mr. KRISS. Substantially; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any additions to add to it? - -Mr. KRISS. I can't think of any. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything that you see that is wrong that should -be deleted? - -Mr. KRISS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, in order that your testimony just now -concerning these documents may be tied into the particular documents, -I would like you to sign them so that the record will show that we are -both talking about the same documents. - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just write underneath my signature. - -Mr. KRISS. Well, do you have a pen? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you can use that one. Just initial the second page. -Now, sign--initial the second page on the FBI report. - -Mr. KRISS. You want me to sign? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; just sign under my name. I think there is only one -point I want to clarify about this matter. Are you familiar with the -chart or map made by the Dallas Police Department of the basement area -showing the positions of all the various officers? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, in the report that they have filed, the documents -relative to your statements, you are identified in that report as No. -61. As a matter of fact, attached to the map was a key, showing that 61 -was H. M. Kriss. It shows, however, that you were standing, at the time -of the shooting, in the north part, I suppose it would be, on the Main -Street ramp? - -Mr. KRISS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I notice that your statement says it was different. - -Mr. KRISS. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Even so, to clarify that, I would like you to see what this -is so you can see what I am talking about. See your number on this key. -This 61? - -Mr. KRISS. 61; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you get to this map--see 61 on the Main Street -ramp? - -Mr. KRISS. That is the Main Street ramp. That is where I was after--it -was--that is where I placed myself when they said, "Don't let anyone -out of the basement." - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. That will clarify it then. - -Mr. KRISS. You can see it on television. I saw it the other night again -where I ran across and when they said, "Don't let anyone out of the -basement," that is where I placed myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that is going to explain that, and in order to make -it a matter of record, I am going to ask you to show your position -before the shooting, and your position after the shooting on this map, -but first let me identify this map by marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March -26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5108, deposition of H. M. Kriss." I am signing -my name to it, and I will ask you for the purposes of identification -so that the record will show that we are both talking about the same -document, to put your name right there. Now, I would like you to look -over there at the mockup. And on the mockup, determine where you were. - -Mr. KRISS. That is Main Street--I was right here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see if we can find that on the map and mark it. -It would be right here, wouldn't it? - -Mr. KRISS. No; right over here [indicating]. Wouldn't it? No, here is -the--wait a minute. Wait a minute. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, we get at this---- - -Mr. KRISS. This is Main---- - -Mr. HUBERT. And this is Commerce Street. - -Mr. KRISS. Right. That is the jail right---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. KRISS. Here is the position right here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the Commerce Street like that? I am drawing a circle---- - -Mr. KRISS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I am drawing the line out then and I am putting, -"Position of H. M. Kriss." - -Mr. KRISS. The four---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting? - -Mr. KRISS. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I noticed on the large map that was attached to the -Dallas report that--and to the key to the personnel, your number was -61, and that they had 61 in the position I am now marking in a circle. -Can you tell me what the explanation of that is, sir? - -Mr. KRISS. That is confusing, because after the shooting they hollered, -"Don't let anyone out of the basement." And I saw the truck over here, -so I ran over here and placed myself right here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where this circle is. - -Mr. KRISS. Yes, right; that is where I placed myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are at this position, but it was after -the shooting instead of before? - -Mr. KRISS. After the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, I am placing a circle of your position. - -Mr. KRISS. After the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. And drawing a line from it and writing "Position of H. M. -Kriss after the shooting." - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right. - -Mr. KRISS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, about how long had you been in the position you were -in before the shooting and until the shooting? - -Mr. KRISS. Well, we had been kind of walking over here watching the -door over---- - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "over here"---- - -Mr. KRISS. In the garage area. I had already put some men out here on -both sides. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had already put some men out here on both sides? Out on -the Commerce Street side? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; and on the Main. - -Mr. HUBERT. And on the Main Street side. - -Mr. KRISS. And we were told by the officers to move all the press back -over this way, keep them on this side [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you see, you have to explain what you mean by "this -side," because---- - -Mr. KRISS. Well, that is---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Because someone reading a transcript of it later won't be -able to tell. - -Mr. KRISS. That is the west side then. - -Mr. HUBERT. West side of the ramp, is that correct? - -Mr. KRISS. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you to say that you had been instructed to -keep all the press---- - -Mr. KRISS. Yes, go ahead. - -Mr. HUBERT. Out of the ramp area? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes; against the west wall only, all the rail--the area in -here, to keep the press back over here and [indicating]---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Against the rail, or on the side? - -Mr. KRISS. No; against the rail. If I just leave through--they were -trying to clear this up right in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been in the position that we have marked -"Position prior to shooting"? - -Mr. KRISS. Possibly 10 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ten or fifteen minutes? - -Mr. KRISS. Something along there. Prior to that time, is when I had -been walking right back in here [indicating]. Yes; and standing, I -believe standing right over in here is where I placed myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will put another circle and I am going to mark -that "Position of H. M. Kriss prior"---- - -Mr. KRISS. "To---- - -Mr. HUBERT. "Shooting." - -Mr. KRISS. Before being told to move the press on this side. - -Mr. HUBERT. "Position of H. M. Kriss prior"-- - -Now, we have not--this is the west side. That is the east side--"of -being told to keep the press back." In other words, your first position -was really the position---- - -Mr. KRISS. Right here. That is it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's put a number--No. "1" in it. That was your -first position? - -Mr. KRISS. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your second position---- - -Mr. KRISS. No. "2." - -Mr. HUBERT. As No. "2." "Position of H. M. Kriss prior to shooting." -And No. "3" is your position after the shooting? Right? - -Mr. KRISS. That's it; sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you had been in position No. "2" for -about 10 minutes or so before they brought Oswald down? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you facing then? - -Mr. KRISS. This way [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Facing north? - -Mr. KRISS. Facing north; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you see anything up there? - -Mr. KRISS. No; all I saw was officers standing right at the head of -this--this officer right there. With a shotgun. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was? - -Mr. KRISS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he is a regular? - -Mr. KRISS. No reserves were armed. We are all unarmed. Unarmed and we -don't carry arms. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, in looking from your position No. "2." Up the ramp, -were there--can you tell us whether there were a lot of people standing -in that area? - -Mr. KRISS. No; I didn't. I was just--had lots of people right in this -area, right about here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about that northeast position? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; all this area right in here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. And where the down ramp going---- - -Mr. KRISS. All this area right on this side. That is where they were -all standing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can't say "this side," sir. While I understand -it---- - -Mr. KRISS. The east side. The east side, excuse me. The east side. I -keep forgetting she's taking it down. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were all standing up against the rail? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right by the television cameras. - -Mr. KRISS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct? - -Mr. KRISS. Right; that's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then the ramp going from the basement down into the -parking area? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes; right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And further along toward Commerce Street along that rail? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes; there was a truck there, large truck here and another -car pulled up right behind the armored truck. - -Mr. HUBERT. Both on the Commerce Street side? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Directing your attention again to whether there were a -great number of people in an area that I am now marking with an oblong -and going to call it "area A," and---- - -Mr. KRISS. That area there? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well---- - -Mr. KRISS. Well, I couldn't be for sure, but it seemed that large -amount people all around there and in here, too. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice an automobile being driven out of there just -a few seconds or minutes---- - -Mr. KRISS. I can't recall that. I have tried to remember that and I -can't recall that. No; I can't recall that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall it? - -Mr. KRISS. No; I can remember something vaguely. I can remember doing -something--they were moving a car, but I was mostly interested in -watching the press, keeping everyone here. That was my job, keeping -everyone on the east side of the rail. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand, and you were looking more at the press than -at the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. KRISS. That's correct; that's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this man when he came down? - -Mr. KRISS. No; I didn't see--all I saw was just a blur right in here -[indicating]. I didn't see--I was like everyone else, I was waiting -here, and Oswald was right here [indicating], and that is where I -looked at Oswald, and I was a curiosity seeker, I think, when I should -have been watching--I was--learned my lesson. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well---- - -Mr. KRISS. Like everyone else, everyone else was watching that. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, your attention was on Oswald? - -Mr. KRISS. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you saw a blur? - -Mr. KRISS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize the man at all? - -Mr. KRISS. Right then? No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you known Ruby? - -Mr. KRISS. Known, of him, saw him before in the papers and everything. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after that? - -Mr. KRISS. Well, they said--somebody said, "Don't let anyone out of -the basement." And I ran across here and I thought I saw one of the -captains, Arnett, and I saw him going down, and he was in the confusion -and in that confusion here, and ran over there and saw that everything -was all right, and they said, "Don't let anyone out." - -Mr. HUBERT. And you positioned yourself right in the middle? - -Mr. KRISS. Positioned myself in the middle and no one passed -thereafter. That I can assure you of. That is the only thing I do know -for sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Let me see if there's anything else. - -All right. Is there anything else you would like to add that is not -contained in the statement, or in your testimony today? - -Mr. KRISS. No, sir; I just don't know a thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right for now. Have you ever been interviewed by any -member of the Commission's staff prior to today? - -Mr. KRISS. No; only the FBI is all. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you have never been interviewed by me prior to this -deposition today? - -Mr. KRISS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that is all and I certainly thank -you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROY LEE LOWERY - -The testimony of Roy Lee Lowery was taken at 11 a.m., on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective R. L. Lowery, Dallas -Police Department. Mr. Lowery, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a -member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the -provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, -a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure -adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order -in the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn -deposition from you, Mr. Lowery. I state to you now that the general -nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report -upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and -the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, Mr. -Lowery, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you -know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may -know about the death and the general inquiry. - -Now, Mr. Lowery, you have appeared here today by virtue of a request -made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel -on the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted -by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice by the -Commission prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules -adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive that -3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Do you wish to waive the 3-day -notice? - -Mr. LOWERY. I will waive it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to -tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. LOWERY. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name? - -Mr. LOWERY. Roy Lee Lowery. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your age? - -Mr. LOWERY. Thirty-two years of age. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? - -Mr. LOWERY. 838 West Church in Grand Prairie. - -Mr. HUBERT. Texas? - -Mr. LOWERY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that just outside of the Dallas area? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; it is in Dallas County. It is on the west side. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir? - -Mr. LOWERY. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied? - -Mr. LOWERY. Oh, approximately 9-1/2 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What specific position do you hold in the detective -department? - -Mr. LOWERY. I'm a detective in the juvenile bureau of the police -department, criminal division. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? - -Mr. LOWERY. Capt. Frank Martin. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is next up the line? - -Mr. LOWERY. I believe it is M. W. Stevenson. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then Chief Batchelor and Chief Curry? - -Mr. LOWERY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have read---- - -Mr. LOWERY. Now, if you will start with Mr. Bookhout's---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this report in. - -Mr. LOWERY. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have read three documents which I have -previously handed you to read, and I want to mark the three of them now -for identification, and then we will talk about each one. - -Mr. LOWERY. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a letter, or a copy of a letter consisting of -one page, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, indicating -that the original may be signed by you, and I am identifying it as -follows, by marking upon it, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. -5081. Deposition of R. L. Lowery, and signing my name below it." As to -the second document, consisting of two pages, and purporting to be a -report of an interview by--of you by FBI Agent Bookhout, on November -24, 1963, and I am marking that document along the right margin as -follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5082. Deposition of R. -L. Lowery." I am signing my name below that on the first page of that -document, and placing my initials in the right-hand lower corner on -the second page of that document. Finally a document purporting to be -a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on -December 23, 1963, consisting of five pages, marking the first page -as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5083, -deposition of R. L. Lowery," and I am signing my name on the first -page, and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the -second page, third page, fourth page and the fifth page. - -Now, sir, I hand you the exhibit which has been marked 5081, being the -letter to Chief Curry, and ask you if that letter is correct insofar as -it goes? Or do you have any other comments to make about it? - -Mr. LOWERY. This is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I hand you an exhibit identified as 5082, consisting -of two pages, and ask you if you have read it, and whether you have any -comments to make about it? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; I read it. Now, as to this one there is some -changes to be made. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I suggest you do this. If you want to -make a change in a sentence, read that sentence indicating that you -are beginning to read by using the word "quote", and when you get to -the end of the sentence, "unquote". Then make your comment about the -sentence, or if you have the whole paragraph you may do it that way. - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, first one, quote Lowery---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That is on the first page, is it not? What paragraph? - -Mr. LOWERY. First page, first paragraph interview by Mr. Bookhout of -the FBI. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are going to start reading, so say "quote". - -Mr. LOWERY. Quote, "Lowery stated he and several others grabbed Ruby," -unquote. Now, I didn't--I didn't grab Ruby. Several other officers did. -I didn't touch Ruby at all at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell this man---- - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is incorrect? - -Mr. LOWERY. I do not recall--no, I touched Ruby later, but not at this -particular time. This is the time where Ruby was disarmed and taken -into the jail office. I didn't touch him at all at that particular -time. There were several other officers around him. I couldn't even get -to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you touch him? - -Mr. LOWERY. He was carried into the jail office by several officers, -and after coming into the jail office by myself, I held one of Jack -Ruby's legs while he was given a quick shakedown before he was taken -upstairs. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you any other comments to make about that -Exhibit 5082? - -Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe that there is any others on this one. Yes. -On Page 2, of this same exhibit--let's see, where could I start. Now, -would you like me to start in the middle of a sentence, or just read -the whole sentence even though it is several lines? - -Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you'd better read the whole sentence, I think it -will be clearer. - -Mr. LOWERY. All right, quote "He stated this camera was never put -into operation, the cable was never connected and the blank cap was -never taken off. Lowery stated that the following--that following the -shooting, the action of the two cameramen who had pushed the camera -from the area was brought to the attention of Lt. R. E. Swain, and they -were taken to homicide and robbery bureau for questioning." unquote. -The facts are, are that the cameramen were not taken to homicide and -robbery bureau. I accompanied those men up on the third floor where -they were allowed to set up their long range camera, and I stayed with -those people for approximately an hour to an hour and a half until I -contacted Lieutenant Baker in the homicide division and told him the -reason that I was with those people, and he advised me to take their -names and addresses, business address and business phone, and home -phone number, and that it wouldn't be necessary to stay with them any -longer. I took this information and turned it in to Lieutenant Baker -and released the cameramen. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anything else you wish to say about it? - -Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe there is any other. - -Mr. HUBERT. 5082. Anything other about 5082? - -Mr. LOWERY. No, that is--nothing further. - -Mr. HUBERT. As to Exhibit 5083, I ask you if it is correct, do you have -any changes or suggestions, or comments to make about it? - -Mr. LOWERY. On page 1, paragraph 2--let's see, "The contingent from -the juvenile bureau consisted of Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, -Detective W. J. Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles -Goolsby, Patrolman W. J. Harrison and myself, Lowery." - -The facts are that Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, Detective W. J. -Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles Goolsby went from -the third--juvenile bureau, on the third floor, room 314, city hall, -down the elevator to the basement of the city hall. As we came off -the elevator we met Patrolman W. J. Harrison coming up the hall from -the police locker room, and he accompanied us to the location in the -basement where Oswald was shot. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "city hall," you mean the police department -building, not the municipal building? - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. Police and courts building. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, any further comments about Exhibit 5083? - -Mr. LOWERY. Now, I have one change here. - -Mr. HUBERT. On what page? - -Mr. LOWERY. On page 2, paragraph 3. Now, this is the only thing, the -only change is--I don't know whether it is necessary for me to read the -whole thing--is the TV station WPAB. In this report it says, "WPAB". - -Mr. HUBERT. It is a typographical---- - -Mr. LOWERY. It is wrong. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, that's correct, and now, I don't think we have to do -anything more about it. - -Mr. LOWERY. All right. Then, on page 2 in--let's see, this page 2, -paragraph 4, and this will carry on to paragraph 1 of page 3. All -right. "This police car had its red lights on, flashing, and there were -two or three officers in the car." - -That is a mistake. The facts are is this police car was a marked squad -car, occupied by one officer, and that officer was Officer O'Dell, who -is a patrolman, and as far as I can say, he was alone in the car. Only -person in the car. All right. On page 3, this also is in paragraph 1. -"He did not know who this individual was until his hat fell off in the -melee and he saw it was Jack Ruby whom he has known for several years." - -The facts are that at approximately the same instant the shot was -fired, or within a fraction of a second thereafter, I did recognize the -person firing the shot as being Jack Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. The correction there being that you recognized him before -his hat fell off, is that what you mean? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, I couldn't definitely say that I recognized him -before his hat fell off. I don't---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him before he fired the shot? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, it seemed like to me at the same time. Now, of -course, this happened directly in front of me, closer than--about half -of the distance between the two of us and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness indicates the distance -that I would judge to be approximately 6 feet. - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, he would be within 4 feet, I think. That Jack Ruby -would be within 4 feet of me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the distance that I judge is 6 feet, you -think is about two-thirds of that distance? - -Mr. LOWERY. That's right. Three to 4 feet, and I couldn't say that Jack -Ruby's hat--I couldn't say whether the hat had fallen off or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -All right. Now, you have looked over the other pages of 5083, and -handed it back to me, are there any corrections or deletions or--wrong -statements or anything that you would like to comment upon? - -Mr. LOWERY. Best I can remember the rest of it is fairly accurate. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to have you identify a chart of the basement -area of the Dallas Police Department and I am marking upon it for the -purposes of identification the words, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. -Exhibit Number 5084, deposition of R. L. Lowery." And I am signing my -name below that, and just for the purposes of identification, I wish -you would sign your name below it, too, below my name. - -I would like you to look at the mockup here and--if you will come over -here with me, we can put the chart and the mockup together, and I would -like you to--by using the mockup, point to the place on the mockup -where you were standing and then we will mark it on the map. - -Mr. LOWERY. All right. I was standing exactly at this point here -[indicating]. In fact, the corner--I was leaning back against the -corner, and I could feel it exactly between my shoulder blades. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I am marking a circle right here as the -point that you are talking about? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; and that would be on the southwest corner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Southwest corner of the intersection of the jail corridor -and the ramp? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle around the position you have -indicated and I am writing the words, "Position of R. L. Lowery at the -time of the shooting," which I am also placing in a circle. Now, is -that correct, sir? That was your position? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long had you been in that position prior to the -shooting? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, I couldn't definitely say how long I had been at -that one particular position. I had been in this area for, oh, from -approximately 10 minutes. I had been within a few feet of there. I just -took this position a few minutes, and--or maybe a couple of minutes -before the shooting actually took place, but I was standing within a -few feet of that point. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the moment of the shooting, you were in precisely that -position? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you would judge you had been in that position about 2 -minutes? - -Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe it would be any more than 2 minutes' time. -I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were facing then in the general direction of the TV -cameras? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, when the actual shooting took place. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the time before that? I want to get both? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, I looked both ways, both left and right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you if you scanned the crowd? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, in the direction of the TV cameras, the lights were -so bright I couldn't have seen any people in the crowd. I could see -forms, but I couldn't--I wouldn't be able to---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a detective, W. J. Harrison, I think he is -called "Blackie" Harrison? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he in your line of vision? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you see him? - -Mr. LOWERY. I saw him shortly before the shooting. Now, at the time -all the TV lights and everything were turned on, I don't recall seeing -"Blackie" from that time until the shot was actually fired. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would use the mockup first to place the -position, approximately, of Harrison, the last time you were able to -see him, and then translate that by placing a circle on the map that---- - -Mr. LOWERY. Let me get squared away here. He would have been in -this general area. I couldn't say in relation to this wall--to this -guardrail. I would think they would have been approximately---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am going to mark a line, which I am labeling as -line "A, B," and then I want to ask you to take the pen and put the -approximate position of Harrison the last time you saw him. - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, I would say about this [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have made an "X," and I am putting a circle about -the "X," and drawing a line out and writing the following, "position of -W. J. Harrison--" the approximate position, is that what you mean? - -Mr. LOWERY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. "The approximate position of W. J. Harrison when last seen -by Lowery." - -Mr. LOWERY. Before---- - -Mr. HUBERT. "Before the shooting." Right? - -Mr. LOWERY. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am encircling that language and connecting it with the -position marked "X." Now, can you give us any estimation of how long -before the shooting was the last time that you saw Harrison? - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I wouldn't make an attempt, because the time in -my estimation I found that they were so far off that I couldn't--I -just don't have any idea. It couldn't have been more than a couple of -minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; you did not see him after that, though, did you? - -Mr. LOWERY. I saw him after the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after that position? - -Mr. LOWERY. As far as I remember, no, sir; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you attribute your failure to see him to the fact that -the TV lights had been turned on after that? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, the TV lights were so bright. I don't remember seeing -Harrison, but I don't say that I was completely blinded by the TV -lights. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come up from the crowd? - -Mr. LOWERY. Sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come out from the crowd? - -Mr. LOWERY. The first time I saw Ruby he was lunging, and almost -instantaneously the shot was fired, and I couldn't--I couldn't say that -I saw him come from the crowd. I saw a blur, and about this time the -shot was fired, and there is Jack Ruby right in front of me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What side of "Blackie" Harrison did Ruby come from with -relation to Harrison himself? - -Mr. LOWERY. I couldn't say which side that---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't know whether it was on Harrison's left side or -right side? - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the automobile that went up the ramp just -before the shooting that had a flashing red light on top of it and two -or three officers in the car? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, now, that is one of the statements we changed. I -remember the marked squad car being driven with Officer O'Dell going -up the--oh, we call it the north ramp, the wrong way, which--with his -red lights on, but this car only had the one officer in it, the best I -remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Rio Pierce? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him drive a car up that ramp? - -Mr. LOWERY. I will say that between the time that Officer O'Dell went -up the north ramp, I couldn't tell you in minutes or seconds how -much time had elapsed, but there was a plain car, and I believe it -was driven by Lieutenant Pierce, and he had a couple or three other -officers. I couldn't say exactly how many officers were in the car, but -it did go up the ramp with red lights on going up the north ramp to the -Main Street entrance. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was after O'Dell had passed? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; best I remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that the statement--I would ask you to have another -look at the statement, which is Exhibit 5083, and ask you if it is -the statement that you previously corrected so that it would refer to -O'Dell. Isn't it, in fact, correct insofar as it would deal with what -you have just said about Pierce? - -Mr. LOWERY. Now, here is the statement we changed. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see your point, and that is that the O'Dell car did not -have a red light on it? - -Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir, it did, but the O'Dell was--the O'Dell car was a -marked squad car, and that was the change that we made. This O'Dell's -car was the first car to go up the ramp, and he was--there was only one -person in the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, then, there was another marked car---- - -Mr. LOWERY. There was an unmarked car. - -Mr. HUBERT. There was an unmarked car, and that is Pierce? - -Mr. LOWERY. Pierce was the unmarked car, and he had another officer in -the car. I couldn't tell you who, or how many, or who they were. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was the time interval between the O'Dell car movements -up that ramp and Pierce's movements up that ramp? - -Mr. LOWERY. I couldn't--I couldn't--I'd be afraid to say exactly, but -probably wasn't more than a minute in that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow the car, or the Pierce car up the ramp with -your eyes, I mean? - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; if you will notice this [indicating] there is -an offset here, and from my position here I would only see a short -distance up the ramp, and there is also a drop down, air-conditioning -and central-heating unit back in here that I would--if my view hadn't -been obstructed by the line of people on that side I wouldn't have -been able to see more than a few feet up the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody coming down? I understand from your -statement that you could not have seen their faces as they came down -the ramp because of the obstruction, but you could have seen feet, -couldn't you? - -Mr. LOWERY. I wouldn't be able to. I didn't see anybody come down the -ramp. They could have possibly gotten down there without me seeing -them, but I didn't see any feet, or any person come down the ramp at -all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody climb over the rails from the parking -area into the ramp on the Main Street side? - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; not that I remember. I couldn't see--couldn't see -the rail from my position for the line of photographers and officers -and the TV cameras and lights. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby thereafter? - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him after that? - -Mr. LOWERY. Which point? - -Mr. HUBERT. After the shooting? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, as I told you, the officers took him into the jail -office, and I went into the jail office, and they were in the process -of searching him, and he was struggling, and I held one--I believe his -left leg. Had him down on his back, and I held his left leg while he -was doing a quick shakedown and then he was taken to the elevator and -upstairs, and that is the last that I saw of him. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Detective Lowery, have you anything else that -you would like to add that you have not stated, or is not contained in -these several exhibits we have identified here today? - -Mr. LOWERY. Well, I think they--I haven't been through the police -report, the investigation in the police department made by Captain -Jones. I believe that they had--a little more in detail. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are referring, I think, to a document contained in -Commission's report 81-A, that is page 66, consisting of two pages and -entitled, "Investigation of Operational Security Involving the transfer -of Lee Harvey Oswald, November 24, 1963," which was supplied to the -Commission by the Dallas Police Department through the attorney general. - -Since I do not have an extra copy of this document, I am going to -allow it to remain in the volume, but I am going to mark it for -identification as I have marked the others, and that is, "Dallas, -Texas, March 25, 1964, exhibit Number 5085," which purports to be an -interview of you. Now wait--I'll finish the identification, 5085, -deposition of R. L. Lowery, signing my name on the first sheet and -placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second sheet. -This is an interview of R. L. Lowery, November 29, 1963, by Lt. P. G. -McCaghren and Lt. C. C. Wallace. I think you have read this document, -have you not, sir? - -Mr. LOWERY. Let me brush through it right quick. I don't---- - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Referring to Exhibit 5085, do you now say that -it is correct? Are there any changes you want to suggest, modifications -to make? - -Mr. LOWERY. It is correct, as far as I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Anything else you want to say? - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I believe that's---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed prior to the taking of the -deposition by any member of the Commission? I don't think there was any -interview between you and me before. - -Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CAPT. FRANK M. MARTIN - -The testimony of Capt. Frank Martin was taken at 2 p.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Frank M. Martin of the -juvenile division, Dallas Police Department. Captain Martin, my name -is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general -counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President -Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the -rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the -Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized by the -Commission to take the sworn deposition of you, Captain Martin. - -Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HUBERT. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's -inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to -the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death -of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Captain Martin, the nature -of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death -of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the -general inquiry. - -Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; Captain Martin, do--you have appeared here by virtue -of a general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the -President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry. Under the -rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written -notice prior to the taking of this deposition, that the rules adopted -by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day -written notice. Do you wish to waive that notice? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you rise and raise your right hand and I will -now swear you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Captain MARTIN. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, Captain Martin. - -Captain MARTIN. Frank M. Martin. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please? - -Captain MARTIN. Fifty-four. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live? - -Captain MARTIN. 906 West Five Mile Parkway. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation today, and how long have you been -in that occupation? - -Captain MARTIN. I am a police officer in Dallas. I have been in it for -30 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your rank is what now? - -Captain MARTIN. Captain. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of captain, sir? - -Captain MARTIN. Since 1951, about 13 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What are your particular duties with the Dallas Police -Department? - -Captain MARTIN. I have charge of the juvenile bureau. We handle all -juvenile affairs. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, captain, I have two documents here which I am going to -mark for identification and then I will question you concerning them. -Now, I am marking this document March 24, 1963, addressed to Chief J. -E. Curry, the original of which apparently was signed by you. Marking -this as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. -5058, deposition of Capt. F. M. Martin, and I'm signing my name to -that document which consists of one page, and I'm also marking another -document which apparently is the report of an interview of you, Captain -Martin, by Special Agents of the FBI, to wit: Alvin J. Zimmerman and -Joseph G. Peden, on December 2nd, 1963." The document consists of one -full page, marking the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, -March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5059. Deposition of F. M. Martin." Signing -my name on that. I am placing my initials on the second page of that -document in the lower right-hand corner. Now, Captain, I believe that -you have only recently, that is to say, about 2 or 3 hours ago, had -occasion to read both of these documents? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. 5058 and 5059. I now ask you if those documents represent -the truth, or whether there are any modifications or deletions or -additions---- - -Captain MARTIN. Well, of course, there---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That you would like to make in it? - -Captain MARTIN. This "Miller," they have there once, where it should be -my name in the first paragraph. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you are speaking of the third line, the first page -of Exhibit 5059, where the second sentence starts, "Capt. Miller," and -apparently the sense of it would be, that since they are speaking of -you, it would be "Capt. Martin," is that right? - -Captain MARTIN. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am, therefore, going to circle the word "Miller," -and--with a circle, and an extension line indicates that it had been -changed by putting my initial on it, and I am going to ask you at a -later time to put your initials on it, too. - -Captain MARTIN. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, that document speaks the truth, as far as -you know? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. There is one area in there in the ramps that I -don't quite understand. Did he mean the ramp, or does he mean the door -into the building, the corridor door or---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, I think you are speaking of the second to the -last sentence in the last paragraph on the first page of Exhibit 5059, -sentence which reads as follows, to wit: "He advised that auxiliary -officers were stationed at each ramp." - -Captain MARTIN. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. "And that to his north, this was the only entrance to the -compound which Ruby could have used." Now, what is it that you would -like to say about that, sir? - -Captain MARTIN. There is a double door going into this basement at the -city hall which I wouldn't consider a ramp. They never considered it -that. I don't know, but it is more or less a corridor, or hallway going -into the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is a corridor, you say, that leads from the jail -building into the basement area? - -Captain MARTIN. It is from the garage area into the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. - -Captain MARTIN. I don't know---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, did you make any statement to them about -auxiliary officers being stationed at any place? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. Yes; I told them that there were, but I meant the -two ramps coming into the basement from the outside. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. In other words, what you want to clarify about this -is that what you meant when you made reference to auxiliary officers -and ramps, that you meant the entrances or exits at the street level of -the Main and Commerce ramps? - -Captain MARTIN. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And, you did not have reference to the officers at other -passageways? - -Captain MARTIN. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. I might ask you in connection with that same -thing, what do you mean by the word "compound"? - -Captain MARTIN. I didn't use that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Didn't use that word? - -Captain MARTIN. No; that must be theirs. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you understand there, because the report is that -you said "That this was the only entrance into the compound which Ruby -could have used"? - -Captain MARTIN. I didn't use that word. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you express any such thought and if so, what were -you referring to? - -Captain MARTIN. Of course, what they are referring to by "compound," is -the area right outside the jail door there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean what is commonly called the basement area -including the parking area, the garage area, the two ramps and the -space between the two ramps? - -Captain MARTIN. I am sure it is, because I didn't use the word -"compound." - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's look at it this way, would this statement be correct -then if we changed the word "compound," to be defined as the general -basement area as I just defined it a moment ago? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, then it would be correct to say that, to your -knowledge, the two ramps, to wit, those--the one leading from Main -Street, and the one leading from Commerce Street were the only -entrances to the basement area, as we defined it a moment ago, that -Ruby could have used? - -Captain MARTIN. More that he could have used, yes; but, of course, -you---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, this says the only entrance, and if you wish to -qualify it---- - -Captain MARTIN. We were speaking of these two ramps. And we were -talking of him coming down into the basement off the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. - -Captain MARTIN. Of course, you have got the city hall. I mean, the -police and courts building, and also got the city hall. He could have -been--come down the elevator over here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. I take it you want to modify this statement then so that -your present opinion is that it is not correct to say that the Main -Street and the Commerce Street entrances were the only mode of entrance -to the basement? - -Captain MARTIN. No, no; there are other ways to get in there. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean. What other ways are there? - -Captain MARTIN. There is--coming from the police and courts building to -the basement, or you can come down the elevator in the city hall into -the garage area and come across, but as far as I remember, that wasn't -brought up. They were speaking of those two ramps. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this: Was the explanation that we have -now put into the record, are you satisfied that this document, 5059, is -substantially correct? - -Captain MARTIN. I don't know exactly what he means here by "He knew of -no unauthorized persons to be in the basement." - -I don't know what---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, sir; if you wish to modify that in any way so that we -now know what you are thinking is about it. I ask you to please do so. - -Captain MARTIN. I don't quite--that is not very clear to me, "He knew -of no unauthorized persons permitted to be in the basement." - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me get at it this way. Do you know what security -precautions were being taken to be sure that unauthorized persons were -not in the basement? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes; they had men at the top of both of the outside -ramps, and I presume that they were supposed to stop anybody coming in, -but apparently they didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know what was meant by "unauthorized persons"? - -Captain MARTIN. Well, there were so many people down there. The press, -TV, radio. Of course, all had been checked before they came in. I don't -know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any specific instructions, yourself, as to -checking? - -Captain MARTIN. I didn't receive any instructions at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know, or was there anything told to you whereby you -could recognize an unauthorized person? - -Captain MARTIN. Nothing was said. Of course, if I'd had seen Jack Ruby, -I'd have known him. I've known him for a long time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the people have identifying badges or anything -of that sort? - -Captain MARTIN. No; so far as I know, they didn't. In fact, there was -nothing--there was nothing said about who was to be down there and who -wasn't. There was nothing said about anything--I didn't know anything -about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, when did you come on duty that day, sir? - -Captain MARTIN. That morning, it was my Sunday to work, 8:15. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the planning of the -movement of Oswald? - -Captain MARTIN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any knowledge as to what the plan was? - -Captain MARTIN. I knew nothing. I just went down there. That's about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you ordered to go down? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. By whom? - -Captain MARTIN. Chief Stevenson. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time, sir? - -Captain MARTIN. Oh, I would say between 10:30 and 10:45, somewhere -around there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson is your immediate superior? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he instruct you to do? - -Captain MARTIN. Just to go to the basement is all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any specific duty to perform? - -Captain MARTIN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, what time was it? - -Captain MARTIN. I don't recall. It was a few minutes before 11, I -believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do? - -Captain MARTIN. Well, I just got out there by the ramp and just stood -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stand before the actual shooting of Oswald? - -Captain MARTIN. I imagine I was down there 20 or 25 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark a chart. A chart of the basement area, -as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, Exhibit 5060, deposition -of Capt. F. M. Martin." Signing it with my own name. Now, I would like -to ask you, Captain, if you could sign the other three documents just -below my name, that is to say, 5058 and 5059. Please initial a second -page of 5058, below my initial and then sign 5059. I will ask you to -sign for the purposes of identification under my name the document -5060. Now, Captain, it may be that you will want to look at this mockup -here of the basement area, and then we will enter it on the map, but if -you could show us where you stood on the mockup here, from the time you -got down there at about 11, I think, until Oswald was shot, and you say -you did not move around? - -Captain MARTIN. I wasn't in one spot all this time, but when he came -out, of course, there was a car sitting right--I guess the back end of -the car was coming to about here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, you are showing the back end of the car, -and I am going to, with a pen draw in on Exhibit 5060, the approximate -position of the back end of the car as you demonstrated it. - -Captain MARTIN. Be about right there [indicating]. No; not that far. -About right here. - -Mr. HUBERT. About like so? - -Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have drawn on the map a rough image of a car, by -using simply a square, and I have marked it "car". Now, would you take -the pen, sir, and--your own pen, and mark by the use of a circle your -position with reference to the car at the time of the shooting. Now, -let's get that. - -Captain MARTIN. I was about right here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you just write in your own handwriting there, -"The position of F. M. Martin at the time of the shooting." Now, -Captain, you think you--you said you had been in that general basement -area for about 20 minutes prior to the shooting? - -Captain MARTIN. I would say that. I don't know for sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody you knew? - -Captain MARTIN. Well, most of the press I knew. No one outside of the -press that I knew. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did know Jack Ruby, I understand? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes; I knew Jack. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think, that is already in report? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes; it is in here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him? - -Captain MARTIN. Not until after the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you looking at any time in the direction where you -subsequently learned or believed he came from? - -Captain MARTIN. No; not directly. Of course--Where is your map? I -couldn't have seen him from--if I would have been, because there were -people all along here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, to your right, is that right? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes; across here [indicating]. And all up in here -[indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. There were people between--on your right, between you -and---- - -Captain MARTIN. And---- - -Mr. HUBERT. And the Main Street ramp? - -Captain MARTIN. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many people were there in that general area? - -Captain MARTIN. I just would have to make an estimate. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's right. - -Captain MARTIN. I would say between me and where he was, there was 8 or -10 people. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark off an area in the Main Street ramp by -just drawing with a pencil a square, and putting, "Area A," in it and -I will ask you if you can tell us in the "Area A," marked on this map, -what were the conditions with respect to the number of people and so -forth. Not exactly. I know you didn't count heads, but just how crowded -were the conditions? - -Captain MARTIN. As well as I can remember there weren't too many people -up in that--up that far. There were 2 or 3 cars parked in the ramp -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean in the Main Street ramp? - -Captain MARTIN. Now, wait a minute. You have got Main Street---- - -Mr. HUBERT. I marked this as "Area A," on Main Street? - -Captain MARTIN. No, no; across this ramp there, there was quite a -number of people. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is in the space I have marked "Area A"? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Roughly how many people? - -Captain MARTIN. Oh, I'd say 15 or 20. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes; more or less. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many ranks deep would you think? - -Captain MARTIN. I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you regard it as a crowd? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes; I would. Mostly the press. There were some -officers in that area also. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think this Officer Harrison was---- - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes, yes; he--he is one of my men. He was standing, oh, -just about at the edge of the ramp there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you mark on the map by the use of a circle where you -think Harrison was at the time? - -Captain MARTIN. Harrison was about right here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is at the time of the shooting? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes; uh-huh. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you just extend this with a little line and then -write out, "Position of"--what are his initials? W. J.? - -Captain MARTIN. W. J. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Martin, let me see if I can get something -clear. Was Detective Harrison in front of Oswald, or to one or the -other sides of him? - -Captain MARTIN. This happened so fast it is really hard to tell. - -Of course, Oswald and the two officers came out this door. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the jail door? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When they got just about, oh, 2 or 3 feet from Harrison, -there was a movement over here [indicating]. I couldn't tell what it -was. I could tell there was a movement. - -Mr. HUBERT. By "over here," you mean---- - -Captain MARTIN. On the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. What side of the ramp? The basement--the garage? - -Captain MARTIN. The garage. The garage side. Evidently Ruby was -standing right here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "here," you'd better put a mark and put a -little arrow to it, your best recollection as to where Ruby must have -been. You didn't see Ruby? - -Captain MARTIN. No, no; this is just supposition. He had to be right in -here somewhere. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, just put a mark and a line and indicate -where he was. - -Captain MARTIN. I didn't see him, but he had to be right there -[indicating]. There is no question about that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did see someone come from that position? - -Captain MARTIN. It was a movement. I didn't see anybody, but there was -a movement in there that I could detect, and then the shot was fired. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you write here? - -Captain MARTIN. "Ruby before the shooting." Or, "immediately before." - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, just tell us what you observed? - -Captain MARTIN. Well, as soon as the shot was fired, of course, it -dumbfounded me, and I tried to get through the people there on my -right, to get over there to it, and there was a lot of confusion in -there, and I had trouble getting through the press, and when I did get -through they had already taken Ruby into the jail office and Oswald was -also in the jail office. Ruby was down on the floor just inside the -jail, and Oswald was lying on the north side of the jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Oswald first came out of the jail office -with Graves and Leavelle, were you looking at him? - -Captain MARTIN. I saw him come out. Now, whether it was--it was shortly -after they come out--I saw him after the shot was fired. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were looking towards him? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes; I thought they were coming all around me and go up -by me and go up to the armored car, that is what I had in mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were not aware that the plans had been changed so that -they--he was going to be taken in a police car, rather than in the -armored car? - -Captain MARTIN. No; I didn't know anything about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, did you know anything about the route that was going -to be used? - -Captain MARTIN. No, as far as I knew, they were going to put him in -the armored truck. That is the reason I was standing there, because I -figured they would come right back there and I could go up there with -them, but they didn't ever make it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what other officers were doing, or in what -direction they were looking about the time that Oswald came out? - -Captain MARTIN. No; I didn't personally observe it, except on TV later. -At the time I didn't notice them. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at the time that Oswald came out, you were -looking where--you were looking towards Oswald, and if I understand it, -you are not in a position to tell us now what other people were doing -except what you saw later on television, is that right? - -Captain MARTIN. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now do you have, any comment about what you saw -on--later on television? - -Captain MARTIN. Well, it seems that all the officers were watching -Oswald when they should have been watching the crowd. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, that impression you formed by looking at the -television coverage of it? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And, you did not form that impression at the time the shot -was fired? - -Captain MARTIN. No; I hadn't noticed them then. In fact, I was over -where I couldn't see them. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was the first time that you did recognize Ruby as the -man who shot Oswald? - -Captain MARTIN. When I went in the jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it until then? - -Captain MARTIN. No; I saw him on the floor. Then I heard somebody say -it was Jack Ruby, and I went in there and saw him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you? - -Captain MARTIN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything at all? - -Captain MARTIN. There was so much going on, I don't know whether he -said anything or not. First thing I heard was somebody said, "He has -been shot." And then there was confusion. I don't know who said that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby at any time -thereafter? - -Captain MARTIN. No, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Martin, is there anything else you would like -to say concerning any aspect of this matter at all? - -Captain MARTIN. I--don't take this down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, if you don't want to say it on the record, you'd -better not say it at all. - -Captain MARTIN. There is a lot to be said, but probably be better if I -don't say it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know what you mean by---- - -Captain MARTIN. Well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That it would be better. What we are seeking to find out is -the facts on it. - -Captain MARTIN. I understand. - -Mr. HUBERT. If what you have to say is more or less a matter of -opinion, that is one thing. I don't want to ask you to express your -opinion, but any facts you know that you think might bear upon this -matter, I would ask that you state those facts. - -Captain MARTIN. Well, there is not but one thing that I could say about -the whole business. Of course, we are not experienced in handling this -sort of a prisoner. I don't guess anybody is, as far as that goes, -but the way I saw it, there was no organization at all. I didn't know -who was in charge or anything about it. I don't guess anybody--either -people should have been told something--what to do and what to expect. -We weren't---- - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you any other facts that you think -have any bearing upon---- - -Captain MARTIN. No, no; I don't think so. I think it is more or less in -that report there [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you are talking about the documents you -have identified? - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, other than the interview that I had with you this -morning, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission -staff? - -Captain MARTIN. No, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, but I did interview you this morning just prior to -lunch, I think at which time we arranged for you to come to have your -deposition taken. - -Captain MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you perceive at the present time any inconsistency -between the interview with me this morning and your testimony in the -deposition this afternoon? - -Captain MARTIN. No, no. It is about the same. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you state anything, or provide any material, state any -facts in the course of the interview this morning which has not been -developed in the record this afternoon? - -Captain MARTIN. I don't recall anything. If there is any you can think -of, you can ask me and I will bring it out, but I don't recall a thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I don't. I am just obliged to ask these questions -to wrap it up. - -Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HUBERT. We certainly thank you, Captain Martin, and I thank you -personally and on behalf of the Commission for your cooperation in this -matter. If at any time, if you know that there are some other facts -that you may have overlooked, please feel completely free to get in -touch with us so that we may find out what that fact may be. In other -words, it is never too late to reveal a fact which has been omitted as -a lapse of memory. - -Captain MARTIN. I don't know of a thing right now. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BILLY JOE MAXEY - -The testimony of Billy Joe Maxey was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of--is that Billy Joe Maxey? It is -not William? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Billy Joe Maxey? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, on the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the -provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a -joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedures -adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and -the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition -from you, Mr. Maxey. I state to you now that the general nature of -the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon -the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of Lee H. Oswald. In particular as to you, -Mr. Maxey, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts -you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you -may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Maxey, you appeared here by -virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of -the Staff of the President's Commission, and under the rules adopted by -the Commission for the taking of these depositions, you are entitled to -a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition. But the -rules also provide that a witness may waive this. I now ask if you are -willing to waive it? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to -tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name. - -Sergeant MAXEY. Billy Joe Maxey. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your age? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Thirty-three. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir? - -Sergeant MAXEY. 8912 Freeport Drive. - -Mr. HUBERT. That in Dallas? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Field sergeant, Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Police Department? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Nine years, and approximately a half. Since September -20th, 1954. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your assignment today? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Field sergeant, patrol division. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same assignment that you had during the period -of November 22 and 24, 1963? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. I was acting lieutenant on that particular -day. Number 16. - -Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "Number 16"? - -Sergeant MAXEY. That is the call from the northeast substation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any particular orders or functions with -respect to the transfer of Oswald to the county jail? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; not before I arrived at the central station. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you arrive there? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere in the vicinity of 11 a.m. I am not positive -of the exact time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile were you driving then? - -Sergeant MAXEY. A plain car, black 1963 model Ford. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, unmarked? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you coming from? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Northeast substation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been ordered in? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to get there then? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I had some cards to be taken to 511, where there were -requests for off-duty employment, overtime work and I thought perhaps -I might be able to assist them. I knew they were going to need all the -help they could get down there that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had not been ordered down there? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with your car? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I parked it on the north end of the garage. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I approached Putnam. They were dispersing some traffic -officers or some officers who worked traffic. They weren't in the -traffic division, they were patrol officers, and asked him at this time -if there was anything I could do, and he said, that if I would wait a -few minutes I could probably go hop in Sergeant Dean's station wagon. -I--he didn't elaborate, and I stayed there in the basement there for a -few minutes. I don't know exactly how long and Lieutenant Pierce came -down and Sergeant Putnam spoke to me, and said, "Why don't you go with -us?" And I approached Lieutenant Pierce's car and he was in this--he -was in his car at this time and asked him if he wanted me to go with -him and he said, "Yes." - -Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform, I take it? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, what happened? - -Sergeant MAXEY. So, I got into the back seat of Lieutenant Pierce's -car. We started to drive out and Sergeant Putnam had to move some -reporters back. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many were there? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I would say in the vicinity of 35. That is a guess, of -course, I have no way of knowing. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the Main Street ramp? - -Sergeant MAXEY. At the--that was at the bottom of both ramps, down -right outside the jail door, and part of the people were blocking the -Main Street ramp where we were going to make a turn and go out. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, he cleared them out and the car followed behind him? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time it was, about, when he left? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Well, now, at that time, I wasn't noticing the time, -but since all this happened---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't want you to state what knowledge you have -gained since, because we can get at that other ways. - -Sergeant MAXEY. Well, at that time I thought I had been in the basement -approximately 10 or 15 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you got there at 11 o'clock? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere in the vicinity. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you would think that it would be around 11:15 or 11:16? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere thereabouts. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, where were you seated in the car? - -Sergeant MAXEY. On the left side in the back seat. That is the left -side facing the way the automobile faces. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you observe when you got to the top of the ramp? - -Sergeant MAXEY. The best I can remember when we pulled to the -top of the ramp and paused, I was looking across Main Street. -There was a group of people, a bus or something that attracted my -attention--whatever it was I--it didn't amount to much. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that to your left, or to your right? - -Sergeant MAXEY. That was---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Straight ahead? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Almost straight ahead. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, when you got to the top of the ramp, did the car -stop? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I believe there was a momentary hesitation. I don't -recall how long. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Officer Vaughn? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way out. Now, -on the way in, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when you were coming at 11 o'clock, you saw -him? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way -out, as I say, I was looking across the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall having seen him at all? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you look to your right down Main Street in the -direction of Pearl? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe so. I don't remember if I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you look to your left down Main Street in the direction -of Harwood? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe so. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your position is you didn't look either way? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you didn't see anybody on either side? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got around to the Commerce Street side had -the shooting already taken place? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; I suppose it had, because as -we--correction--as the Lieutenant backed our car into position in front -of the armored car, I heard the dispatcher call an ambulance code 3, to -the basement and officers were rushing around, covering exits to the -city hall, so apparently it happened just before we arrived. That had -given them time to call the dispatcher by phone for an ambulance, would -be my guess that we were on Harwood Street at the time that it happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further connection with the event? - -Sergeant MAXEY. We went to Parkland. Lieutenant Pierce, Sergeant -Putnam, and I went to Parkland Hospital and set up security out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk with Jack Ruby at anytime? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the man? - -Sergeant MAXEY. I know him slightly. I know him by sight. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him in the ramp at anytime while you were -driving up? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at anytime that day at all, at any place? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am marking now three documents as indicated. This -is a document, apparently a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed -to Chief J. E. Curry, the original of which is signed by you, and two -pages. I am marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, Exhibit--March 25, -1964, Exhibit 5094, from the deposition of B. J. Maxey," and signing -my name below that on the first page, and I am putting my initials -on the lower right-hand corner of the second page and I'll ask you to -be reading that while I mark the second document, which is a report -of an FBI interview of December 6, 1963, taken of you by FBI Agents -Quigley and Dallman and I am marking that document, "Dallas, Texas, -March 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 5095. Deposition of B. J. Maxey." I am -signing my name, Leon D. Hubert underneath, and marking the second page -of that document by my initial in the lower right-hand corner. The -third document, I am marking in the margin, right-hand margin, "Dallas, -Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5096. Deposition of B. J. Maxey," and -signing my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am marking the second page of -that document with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and the -third page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I will ask -you to read these two documents likewise, and I wish to ask you some -questions about them. - -Sergeant MAXEY. As far as the report here written to the chief, I would -say that it is accurate at the time that I wrote it, and I am willing -to sign it as is, and I--what page was it you wanted me to sign here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Just under my name. - -Sergeant MAXEY. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Initial the second page. - -Sergeant MAXEY. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, you can turn to the next exhibit, which -is---- - -Sergeant MAXEY. The FBI report. There are two of them there. I believe -both of them are the same, aren't they? Wait a minute. One of them -might possibly be a supplement. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; they are different. One is on the 2d of December and -the other is on the 6th, so, you'd better separate them. Do you have -any comments to make on them? - -Sergeant MAXEY. One of the things that I was going to bring up here, -changes has been made in this one already, this second one. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's see, we are talking about Exhibit 5095. - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make? - -Sergeant MAXEY. In the first report it was stated in there that the FBI -report of December 3, I believe---- - -Mr. HUBERT. 2d. - -Sergeant MAXEY. 2d? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Sergeant MAXEY. And the report of December 2, Exhibit 5096, it was -stated that I saw ex-police officer Daniels and shoeshine boy at the -end of the Main Street ramp. That was incorrect. I did not. That was -hearsay. I heard that from other officers. I did not see them myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. And, as a result of that error you then called the FBI and -told them you wished to correct that, is that correct? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; they came back out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. They came back out and said what? - -Sergeant MAXEY. And asked me some more questions regarding the shine -boy. They ask me then did I recall the time and I know at the time I -talked to them the first time I told them several things that I didn't -see myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Sergeant MAXEY. I told them things that I had heard and what have you, -and I tried to differentiate between what I could actually testify and -what I couldn't at this time he was talking to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your present recollection is what then? Which is correct? - -Sergeant MAXEY. My present recollection is that I didn't see Daniels. I -didn't see the shine boy. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that the information that you did give about seeing -Daniels and the shine boy in the earlier deposition--I mean the earlier -statement to the FBI, which is contained in Exhibit 5096 was erroneous -in that you had not really seen them, but you had heard people talk -about them? - -Sergeant MAXEY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, in all three statements, however, 5094 and 5095, and -5096, you stated then that you did see Officer Vaughn and yet, as I -recall your testimony this evening you said that you did not recall -having seen Vaughn. - -Sergeant MAXEY. At the present time I don't, but those were written -up close to the time all this happened, and I haven't seen one of -those reports since, and lots that I don't remember right now that I -remembered then, I am sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's correct, and that's why I wanted you to correct this -apparently contradictory statement. - -Sergeant MAXEY. That's true, I understand that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Because, we don't want to have the record, if we can, to -have conflicts in it. - -Sergeant MAXEY. Neither do I, I can assure you. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, your statement is that you can't swear tonight that you -saw Vaughn there? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No; I can recollect at the time, how--at the time I was -questioned about Vaughn, the main thing they wanted to know about him -at that time was how far he had walked from his position to the curb. -Whether he walked to the curb or out into the street which I didn't -know. - -Mr. HUBERT. And right now your mind is blank on Vaughn altogether, I -take it? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Actually, yes. I wasn't--right now I couldn't say. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, has anybody asked you to change your statement? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, uh-huh, so far as that goes, I haven't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to anybody about it? - -Sergeant MAXEY. As far as that goes I haven't talked to anybody about -the statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have talked to anybody about the possible conflict in -your statement? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Uh-uh. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don't know how that comes out on the machine. I suppose -you mean "no" by that. - -Sergeant MAXEY. No; no. I'd like to say this: That as far as the -conflicting statements are concerned, the only reason a person would -have for getting together and getting his story straight would be to -have something to hide, and I want it known right now I have nothing to -hide, and I want it on the record. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; it is on the record. This is not an effort to -cross you up in any way. - -Sergeant MAXEY. I realize that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you realize that these statements do exist, and the -purpose of this deposition, among other things, is to determine the -real facts, and when you run into a conflict like this, unless we ask -for explanations we do not get a clear picture. - -Sergeant MAXEY. That's true. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. I want to ask you again if you have any -explanation, any other explanation to offer now as to conflicts, or is -it just simply your opinion that insofar as Vaughn is concerned, your -memory was better then than it is now about that event? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes; I hadn't thought about it too much one way or the -other since then. I will say excluding 4 or 5 days thereafter. - -Mr. HUBERT. And as to Daniels and the colored boy, your statement now -is that that was hearsay. You did not, yourself---- - -Sergeant MAXEY. That was hearsay, and I gave it to him as an--as a -hearsay statement. That was a matter of semantics in my opinion. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that the record can show we are all talking about the -same documents, I would like you to sign below my signature and initial -the pages of 5096 and 5095, with the understanding that this is not -an approval by you of these statements at all, but simply as a means -of identification that you and I were both talking about the same -document. So, I would like you to sign my--just below mine and put your -initials on the preceding pages. - -Sergeant MAXEY. Where is your name? - -Mr. HUBERT. My name is right down here in the margin. Just put it right -in there. Then initial the other pages until you get to the second FBI -statement and then sign under my name. In other words, where my name -is signed, sign your name. Where my initials are, put your initials. - -Sergeant MAXEY. Well, now, there is some more points that I want to -bring up. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's do this anyhow, what we are doing. - -Sergeant MAXEY. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I say, this is solely for the purposes of the record -showing that we are talking about the same pieces of paper. - -Sergeant MAXEY. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have further corrections or comments you wish to -make on these documents? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; perhaps they are of no importance, and -perhaps they are, but it is apparently a misunderstanding on the -part--matter of semantics, again, and let's see--paragraph 5, on page -1, states here that--"A few minutes after that Lieutenant Pierce -entered the garage driving a black car." Now, I don't remember him -entering the garage. I believe his car was already parked down there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is that? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Lieutenant Pierce. I don't believe he drove into the -police garage from outside. I believe his car was already parked in the -basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. And other comments? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Page 2, paragraph 8. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is still 5095? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; page 2, paragraph 8. That was the correction -I advised the FBI office that I did not actually see Daniels and the -shoeshine boy. That this was something I had overheard other officers -talking about, and that has already been taken care of. Page 3, -paragraph 10. This is concerning---- - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the 10th paragraph of--actually, the third -paragraph, I guess, on that page. - -Sergeant MAXEY. Well, it is part of a paragraph and a full paragraph. - -Mr. HUBERT. Last paragraph on the third---- - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; next to the last. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, second to the last? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Next to the last on the second page. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Sergeant MAXEY. It's concerning Jack Ruby. "He first met him---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that in quotes? You are reading that, aren't you? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Uh-huh. It states here that I first met him about 2 -years ago there that--at his place of business, that I had my wife with -me. - -Mr. HUBERT. With you? - -Sergeant MAXEY. The correction would be that my wife was not with me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your wife was not with you? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Not at the time I first met him. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that the record can be clear on a point, did you ever -go there with your wife at some other time? - -Sergeant MAXEY. Not the Carousel Club. The Vegas Club; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Okay. - -Sergeant MAXEY. And, let's see. I guess that's about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, that is to 5095. Have you any comments as to -5096? I think that is the one that contains your explanation on the -previous point. - -Sergeant MAXEY. No; second one is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Sergeant MAXEY. Wait a minute. I didn't read this. That's all right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything more you want to say? Anything you -want to add? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; that's it. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Sergeant MAXEY. About all of it, those two statements. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don't believe that there has been any previous interview -between you and me? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or any member of the Commission's staff? - -Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LOGAN W. MAYO - -The testimony of Logan W. Mayo was taken at 8:40 p.m., on March 26, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Logan W. Mayo. Mr. Mayo, my -name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the -general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the Executive -Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of -Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedures adopted by the -Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint -resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from -you, Mr. Mayo. So, I state to you that the general nature of the -Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the -facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the -subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, -the nature of our inquiry is to determine what the facts are that -you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you -may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Mayo, you have appeared here -tonight by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general -counsel of the staff of the President's Commission by a letter written -to J. E. Curry, chief of police asking him to make his officers, -reserve and regular, available to the Commission. Under the rules -adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice -prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that -the witness may waive this notice if he sees fit to do so. I am asking -you if you are willing to waive that 3-day notice? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice and -cooperate with you in any way that I can. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly -swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so -help you God? - -Mr. MAYO. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name? - -Mr. MAYO. Logan W. Mayo. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Mr. MAYO. Fifty-six. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? - -Mr. MAYO. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what is your civilian occupation, sir? - -Mr. MAYO. I am an accountant. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that profession, sir? - -Mr. MAYO. Thirty-five years. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is your own private business? - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I am with Sears Roebuck & Company. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see, and are you in charge of a division or something -with that company? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what it is? - -Mr. MAYO. In charge of accounting and the auditing and the accounts -payable of the mail order catalog business. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the Dallas---- - -Mr. MAYO. Dallas region. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed by Sears Roebuck? - -Mr. MAYO. Thirty-five years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are also, as I understand, a member of the reserve -on the Dallas Police Force? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the reserve? - -Mr. MAYO. Six years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have occasion to be called to duty on November -24, 1963, the Sunday after the President was shot? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been on duty prior to that Sunday? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I want to concern ourselves solely with the Sunday, -right now. - -Mr. MAYO. No; not on Sunday, not until I was called at 9 o'clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; at 9 o'clock, you did get a call to come on duty? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was it from, do you remember? - -Mr. MAYO. I think it was Sergeant Maxey. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you to notify any other reservists? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who were they, do you remember? - -Mr. MAYO. He asked me to call the reservists in my squad, which -consists of about six, seven people. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are a lieutenant, aren't you? - -Mr. MAYO. I'm a sergeant. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you did call? - -Mr. MAYO. I called the men, but none of them showed up. They had all -gone to church, or was fixing to go to church. I contacted a lot of -them and they were leaving to go to Sunday school and they had other -plans and none of them could make it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Holly? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you get in touch with him? - -Mr. MAYO. I got in touch with him and he said he would come down as -soon as he got loose. I didn't see him at the city hall, though. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him? - -Mr. MAYO. I called him on the phone. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time he should get down there or what -time the transfer was going to be? - -Mr. MAYO. I told him he should try to be there between 10 and 10:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time the transfer was going to be, or -that you thought it was going to be, or anything of that sort? - -Mr. MAYO. I told him it might be sometime between 10 and noon. I didn't -know for sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him any more after that? - -Mr. MAYO. I didn't see him down at the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to the city hall? - -Mr. MAYO. I got there about 9:45. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you stationed? - -Mr. MAYO. I was stationed right here, at Commerce Street, guarding this -entrance to the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the -mockup, and he points to the sidewalk area in front of the Commerce -Street exit---- - -Mr. MAYO. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of the police department. How long did you stay there, sir? - -Mr. MAYO. I was there from about 10:15 until about 11:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were what---- - -Mr. MAYO. Then, I left and went---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What were your duties? - -Mr. MAYO. My duty was to guard the entrance to the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "guard," what do you mean? - -Mr. MAYO. I was not to permit any people to go in there except maybe -the press that had a certified press card. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you given any description of the kind of cards that -you could honor? - -Mr. MAYO. I was told that they probably would have a press card with -their picture on it and their newspaper. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to refuse entrance to anyone? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; several people. - -Mr. HUBERT. You turned them away? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did some pass by you, that is to say, with your consent, -after being properly identified? - -Mr. MAYO. You mean enter the building? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. MAYO. I let two in from newspapers. - -Mr. HUBERT. And they were properly identified? - -Mr. MAYO. They were properly identified. One of them had a two-wheeled -cart, similar to a two-wheel golf cart and pulling some equipment on it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What kind of equipment? - -Mr. MAYO. It looked like cameras and typewriters. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby or have you seen any pictures since -in the paper? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; I don't know him, but I have seen his picture. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to state that neither of those two men -that you let in was Jack Ruby? - -Mr. MAYO. Neither of those two men were him. They were smaller in -stature. I want to tell you that at 11:30, I left the entrance and went -to the other one on Main Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the -mockup and when he says he left "this entrance," he was pointing to the -Commerce Street entrance, and then he went to the---- - -Mr. MAYO. Main Street entrance? - -Mr. HUBERT. Main Street entrance. - -Mr. MAYO. The other---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the building? - -Mr. MAYO. I went in the building, stayed over there until 1:10. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened? - -Mr. MAYO. I got off duty and went home. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't go out to the Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I was asked to go, but didn't have any relief -so they wanted the guard, there was about a hundred or so people -congregating and coming up from church and everywhere else, and just a -big crowd there, see, and I was needed there. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street entrance? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, for purposes of identification I want to -mark what purports to be a signed copy of a report to Chief Curry, -dated December 3, 1963, and signed, actually, by Jack Revill, and F. I. -Cornwall, by placing in the right-hand margin the following, "Dallas, -Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5111, deposition of R. L. Mayo." I am -signing my name under that, and I'll ask you if you have read that, Mr. -Mayo? I mean read the letter? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, I have read that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you endorse your name underneath it? I'm also -endorsing a document which is a report of FBI Agent Wilkinson dated -December 5, 1963, by placing on the right-hand margin the following: -"Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5112, deposition of H. L. -Mayo." I'm signing my name and ask you to sign your name. - -Mr. MAYO. What is this right here [indicating]? - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to read it first. That's right. - -Mr. MAYO. Do you want me to sign this? I talked to Mr. Wilkinson---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. As far as you know, then, the contents of the -documents marked 5111 and 5112, are correct reports of interviews to -which they relate? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that I am not taking out of the bound -volume, Commission Document 81-A, page 70, the signed statement by Mr. -Mayo. Mr. Mayo, do you have anything more to add? Anything new that has -not been brought up in either this deposition or these two Exhibits, -5111 and 5112? - -Mr. MAYO. Well, could you cut this off a minute and let's talk about it -and see? - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that Mr. Mayo wanted to acquaint me -with the general nature of another matter, but that after he had spoken -a few sentences, it became apparent to me that it should be a matter of -record, so, I will ask you now, Mr. Mayo, just simply to repeat what -you have said to me in the last few sentences off the record. - -Mr. MAYO. The first individual that tried to gain entrance into the -basement said that he was a minister and he had a small book in his -hand and I asked him what his business was. He said he wanted to go -see Lee Harvey Oswald, that he was a friend of his, a minister that -was supposed to help him, and he needed him, and he needed to go down -there, and I told him "No, he could not enter without"--now, that is -when I was on the Commerce Street side, and he hung around the entrance -for some 20 minutes, I think, and he kept looking in the basement and -acted very peculiar, but finally he left within about 20 minutes. He -was tall, skinny, looked like over 6 feet tall, and looked like he was -a man between 55 and 60. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed? - -Mr. MAYO. He had on a suit. I don't recall the color of it, but it was -just a suit, business suit with a necktie. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; he had a hat on. - -Mr. HUBERT. And a coat? - -Mr. MAYO. I--yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. A top coat? - -Mr. MAYO. I don't believe that he had on---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Regular coat, suit coat, not an overcoat? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you reported the fact to the---- - -Mr. MAYO. I mentioned that to Jack Revill, and they said, well, it was -probably just like lots of people trying to gain entrance. They didn't -think it had much value. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested that it be left out of your report? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else? - -Mr. MAYO. When I changed positions--stations, and went from Commerce -Street to the Main Street side, about 10 minutes after Oswald had been -placed in the ambulance, I cleared the way for them to get out of the -entrance. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. MAYO. I went to the other side, and a large gentleman, well, he was -slightly bald, weighed over 200 pounds, and walked with a limp. He came -up to me and then said that he was a roommate of Jack Ruby, and that he -wanted to go down and talk to him. And I told him he could not enter. I -asked him what was the nature of his business and he said that Mr. Ruby -had quite a sum of money on his person and he wanted to go down there -and see if he wanted him to handle it for him. I told him he couldn't -go down and he stayed up around there about 20 or 30 minutes, and -finally went on down Main Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you his name? - -Mr. MAYO. I didn't ask him his name. He didn't give me his name. I told -him he couldn't enter--and he walked with a limp. I remember that. He -was a large fellow. Had no tie on and slightly bald. No hat on. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he claimed to be a roommate of Jack Ruby? - -Mr. MAYO. Jack Ruby; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe him otherwise, his hair, his height---- - -Mr. MAYO. I'd say he was over 6 feet tall, and much heavier than I am. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have given all that information, I think. Did he have a -coat on? - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir; he had no coat on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just a shirt? - -Mr. MAYO. Just a shirt, heavy shirt and no tie on. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you gave that information to Jack Revill? - -Mr. MAYO. I mentioned it to him and he said, well, just probably -somebody knew him and trying to use an excuse to get in, so, he didn't -feel like it was--it is my opinion it might be this fellow Senator that -we have been hearing about. I don't know how you spell his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you estimate what time it was that this man, the heavy -man, tried to get in to see Jack Ruby through the Main Street entrance? - -Mr. MAYO. Sir, I would only have to estimate it at, I would say, around -11:45. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, anything else that you mentioned to Revill that was -not put down? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. I mentioned about the tourists. That is a man and -a woman that hung around the entrance on the Main Street side and said -they were just passing through Dallas, and they lived in Springfield, -Ill., I believe they said, and they wanted to take some pictures, and -they kept hanging around the entrance and they did take a few pictures -and finally left. I don't know if they are connected with it or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, you mentioned that episode to Jack Revill and he -also was of the opinion that it was not important? - -Mr. MAYO. Minor, minor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any other things then? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. While I was on the Commerce Street side I had a -Ford Fairlane car that came up about three times with two men in the -front seat, and each time they would stop and ask me if he had come -down--"What's happening?" I wondered then--now, I didn't mention that -to Revill, because I didn't think about it at the time, but I wondered -since then if they had some connection with this---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not mention that to Revill? - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't take the license number? - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir; it was just routine to me. They kept coming by. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how many times did they pass you, do you know? - -Mr. MAYO. Third time---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You saw them three times? Three times they came down -Commerce? - -Mr. MAYO. Came down--Commerce is one way going east, and they came down -on my side and they slowed down and stopped and asked me, "Has he come -down? Is anything happening?" And I would motion them on, because my -job was to keep the street open. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that happened three times? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And after the third time, what happened? Is that when the -shot was fired or something, or you didn't see them any more or---- - -Mr. MAYO. After--I didn't hear the shot, but the hustle and bustle -and noise in the basement, I looked down there and the men and all -going around and around. Everything--and I heard a little radio from -a pedestrian that said that Oswald had been shot, broadcast, and just -about that time, I saw them going down Commerce Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "them," you mean the two men in the Fairlane -car? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. They were just a little past the entrance when all -this commotion started. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the third trip? - -Mr. MAYO. That was the third trip down. I went on down--went downstairs. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't notice whether it was a Texas license or not; or -out of State? - -Mr. MAYO. I didn't get a chance to see the license. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ford Fairlane. Do you remember the color? - -Mr. MAYO. Seemed to me like it was a blue, or light color of some kind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a sedan? - -Mr. MAYO. It was a 4-door. - -Mr. HUBERT. 4-door sedan? Hard top? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; hard top. - -Mr. HUBERT. What model, about? A new car? Could you give us some idea -about the model? - -Mr. MAYO. It was a late model car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was it a 1964 model? - -Mr. MAYO. No, no; it wasn't a 1964 model. If I was going to guess I -would say a 1962 or 1963--one. That man was hatless and he had a high -forehead. - -Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't bald was he? - -Mr. MAYO. I wouldn't say he was bald, just had a high forehead. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that the driver? - -Mr. MAYO. That was the driver. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed? - -Mr. MAYO. He had on an old, old--looks like he had a heavy wool shirt -like you wear in the winter, long sleeves. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have a tie on? - -Mr. MAYO. No tie. - -Mr. HUBERT. What color was the shirt? Do you remember? - -Mr. MAYO. The shirt--it was kind of checked color. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he dark complected? - -Mr. MAYO. He was dark complected. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old a man? - -Mr. MAYO. I would guess in the forties, just by looking at him, and I -have wondered since about his interest in it. Maybe just somebody that -was inquisitive and wanted to see what was going on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could be. On the other hand we want to get all the facts, -and that is a fact. What about the other man? Did you see him? - -Mr. MAYO. I didn't pay much attention to him, because he was on the -other side and I was dealing with the driver. It was a one-way street, -and I was dealing with the driver over here and I didn't pay too much -attention to the other man. I couldn't even describe him. - -Mr. HUBERT. How close do you suppose you were to this man each time he -drove up? - -Mr. MAYO. Oh, I'd say 4 to 6 feet. See, my duty was to stand on the -sidewalk and keep the overflow of people--we had about 200 people, and -if I moved out, somebody on the sidewalk could go in behind me, and I -didn't get too far from the entrance of the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to show you a set of pictures and ask if that man -there--look at them all first before you answer--bears any resemblance -at all to the man you saw? - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness was looking at the -pictures of Curtis Lavern Crafard. What about the other man in the car? -Did he look like this fellow? - -Mr. MAYO. Sir, I wasn't close enough to make any identification or -recognize him. He was on the other side and I wasn't able to. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, was there anything else that you want to state to us? - -Mr. MAYO. No; I can't think of anything else, sir. It was all just--I'd -say, a state of commotion and confusion when this happened, and I had -people everywhere around me and I just assumed that they are curiosity -seekers. Making various comments about the assassination of a President. - -Mr. HUBERT. I want to identify these pictures a little further. The -pictures that were shown to the witness were various views of a man -by the name of Curtis Lavern Crafard, taken November 28, 1963, by the -FBI, and forwarded to the Commission recently. All right, sir. Is -there anything else that you want to state about anything we have been -talking about? - -Mr. MAYO. No; I can't think of anything else that would pertain to this -in any way and my work there. I was just on duty that morning and -doing the best I could, and I can't think of any other incident. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Well, let me ask you this: Have you ever been -interviewed by me or any other member of the Commission at any time -except, of course, with this deposition? - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I've not been interviewed by you. - -Mr. HUBERT. About a moment ago we went off the record. Have we covered, -since we have been back on the record everything that you told me while -we were off the record? - -Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. That is it. Thank you. - -Mr. MAYO. I want to express my appreciation to you people. I think you -have done a fine job about investigating this thing, and I'm very happy -to cooperate with you. I hope that you are able to solve this thing -out and get it straight out, because I still think in my mind there -was something back of this, because too much confusion around these -entrances, and I, personally want to express my appreciation to every -one of you people. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by "too much confusion"? - -Mr. MAYO. Seemed to me like people standing around and looking around. -I don't know. People are funny. I have been working a long time. They -just move around. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean a lot of members of the public? - -Mr. MAYO. Public; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, let me clarify one thing, did your remark intend to -say that the security methods weren't sufficient? - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I think the security methods were very fine, but I -just wondered why the curiosity. I still wonder in my own mind. I don't -know. I wonder why so many people were down there? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; well, I wanted to get that straight, because at first -I thought your remark might be construed by someone as being critical -of the security measures. - -Mr. MAYO. No, sir; the security measures was, at this time, was very -good. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. - -Mr. MAYO. Anything else? - -Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; that's all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LOUIS D. MILLER - -The testimony of Louis D. Miller was taken at 3:55 p.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will swear you in, Mr. Miller. - -Mr. MILLER. Before we do that, what are we doing here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We are taking your deposition. - -Mr. MILLER. I'd like to understand what we are doing here first. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, all right. I'll be happy to explain it to you. First -of all so that we can get the record straight, my name is Burt Griffin, -and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the -President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President -Kennedy. And the Commission has been appointed under Executive Order -11130, issued November 29, 1963, by President Johnson, under joint -resolution of Congress No. 137, to investigate the facts surrounding -the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death -of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the other circumstances that were attendant -on these two offenses. Now, I have been authorized, under the rules -of the Commission, to take your sworn deposition, and Chief Curry has -a copy of that authorization. I will be happy to show it to you if -you care to see it. Our particular interest in your testimony is to -determine what facts you know about the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, -but also to determine any other pertinent facts that you may know about -the general inquiry which the Commission is authorized to go into. Now, -you are here today because we have made a request from the General -Counsel on the Commission staff, and pursuant to the rules adopted by -the Commission, and we have made the request to Chief Curry. Now, you -are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to having this deposition -taken, and if you would like that we would be happy to do that. We had -presumed that probably the police officers would prefer to have the -notice waived. You are also entitled to have an attorney present during -this interrogation. Now, I have no objection in any way you want to -handle this. I want you to be perfectly frank in telling us, because we -have gone ahead, as I said, simply on the assumption that you probably -would prefer to waive these matters, but if you would like to have -the written notice and would like to have a copy of the authorizing -resolution, or would like to have an attorney present during this -deposition we would be happy---- - -Mr. MILLER. No; I just want to understand what is going on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any question that you want to ask me -about it? I have given you a general statement here. - -Mr. MILLER. What will this deposition be used for? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this deposition will be made a part of the -Commission's files. It will not be turned over to any member of the -police department. These files will remain in the possession of the -Commission, and on the basis of all of the investigation which we are -conducting here, why, there will be a report written. Now, I can't tell -you what is going to happen to the files after--and that means this -deposition--after the Commission issues its report. I would like to be -able to give you the assurance that it will be impossible for anybody -to ever see this deposition. I can't, in honesty, tell you that, -because I don't know that that is true. On the other hand, I don't know -that it is not true, but basically, it will be used to write a report, -and your testimony that you would give would be one of probably close -to 250, maybe 500 depositions that are going to be taken during this -period. I think 500 might be a pretty fair estimate, together with -thousands, and probably approaching ten thousand pages of investigative -reports and other documents also in addition to all these investigative -reports. That is where it is all going to wind up. But, I can assure -you of this: That no copies of this are going to be turned over to any -member of the police department or any official of the State of Texas -as such. Now, whether or not the thing will be accessible because they -are all deposited in the archives, and years from now somebody could go -and look at them, I don't know the answers to that. - -Mr. MILLER. Well, is what you want from me a statement of what happened -down there? Is that what you are getting at? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but let me tell you this, too, that if you feel that -you would prefer to talk about this thing off the record and that you -think you would have important information to give us that you prefer -to be kept--to have some assurances that your confidences would be kept -completely, I would be happy to defer this deposition and do it in such -a way that no one would know the reason for it, and I would check with -our people in Washington to see if there weren't some arrangements -which could be made for it, because we are most concerned with getting -the truth, and as much information--I wasn't suggesting that you -wouldn't tell the truth, that we all know, and I would appreciate if -there were better circumstances under which we could do this. I would -inquire into it and I would make this a matter of complete confidence -between us. - -Mr. MILLER. Well, there is nothing that I know that possibly a hundred -other people don't know, so, that part don't bother me, but I don't -understand coming down and giving a statement, that I am supposed to -stand, and swearing, and all that part of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this is just as--I am sure you have testified before -grand juries. - -Mr. MILLER. I sure have. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you have been sworn when you testified there. -Only they don't have a court reporter in the grand jury. I don't know -about Texas, but in Ohio we don't have a court reporter present. I do -have the feeling in talking to you that maybe you would like to do this -under some other circumstances, and I would be happy to explore this. - -Mr. MILLER. I understand that you want a statement from me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I am going to examine you. - -Mr. MILLER. And I'll be more than glad to tell anything I know about -it, but I don't understand swearing in. This is not a court. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Not a court in the sense that anybody is on trial, but it -is a--let me explain this to you, that we have authority to administer -the oath, and we have authority to punish for all consequences in -violation of the oath. The contempt provision of the Federal Code -applies to this proceeding. We also have authority--I don't have this -authority personally, but there is a provision granted that we can -grant immunity from prosecution. If you feel that there will be some -evidence that you wouldn't want to give for one reason or another, we -have authority to grant immunity from prosecution. I don't have that -authority here, but--and I do want to make it clear that you can have -a right to have an attorney present, and many of the witnesses do -have attorneys. Now, on the other extreme, if you would like to have -a public hearing, we will open the hearing up to the public, but we -haven't done it as a matter of routine except upon request, because we -thought that most people prefer not to have it conducted in public, but -that has been done, and we can do that. - -Mr. MILLER. I still don't understand the reason of it. Are you going to -use this thing to try to prosecute me? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. - -Mr. MILLER. What are you going to use it for? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We have no authority to prosecute anyone except for -perjury before the Commission. Now, we--our instructions are--let me -get a copy of the resolutions. Let me suggest that we handle it this -way. I have got a copy here of the resolutions, Executive order signed -by President Johnson, and the joint resolutions of Congress. The rules -of the Commission and a memorandum dated March 20, 1964, from Mr. -Rankin, who is the General Counsel of the Commission authorizing Mr. -Hubert and me to administer your oath and take your deposition. Now, -I think that what I prefer to do here so that you can be sure what -you want to do, and I don't want to put you under any pressure. Now, -I would like to give you this and have you try to find another room -out here and look at this, and read it over, and think about this and -ponder it as long as you want, and I want to give you assurance that -I am going to call another--I am going to call Officer Montgomery in -here and proceed with him. I am not going to tell him that I have not -completed your deposition or anything like that. I want to be sure that -as far as anybody is concerned whatsoever, what has transpired here is -completely routine so that any decision you make, I can give you as -much assurance as possible---- - -Mr. MILLER. All I wanted to know is the purpose of the thing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well---- - -Mr. MILLER. And if I find out we can go on with it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you go ahead and read this and let me go ahead -with Montgomery, and if you want I will tell Montgomery that you went -on. - -Mr. MILLER. Well, now, do you want me to come back some more, or what? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I'd like---- - -Mr. MILLER. What time is it now? It is 4:15. I am due at home at 4:30. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to take that away, and I think that maybe -it would be better if you waited around. Could you call your wife and -meet me back here at 5 o'clock, and why don't you wait for me in my -office? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, now, could we get on with the thing? I am trying to -explain to you, I have got small kids be coming home from school and---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Well, would you rather think about it and come -back some---- - -Mr. MILLER. Well, if we can't take care of it today, I would like to -come back tomorrow. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I can go ahead, you know. I want to make sure that -you are satisfied in your own mind about everything before we start to -ask any questions, and if you have any reservations or questions that I -haven't answered I want you to look at those materials, and I would be -happy to set it up for tomorrow if you would prefer to do it that way. - -Mr. MILLER. I sure would. - -Mt. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you--let's see, you would want to take -that home with you, wouldn't you? Let me do this. Let's go back to our -office and let me get the girl to Xerox off another copy of this. - -Mr. MILLER. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And let us set this up for 8:30. What time are you on duty -tomorrow? - -Mr. MILLER. 8. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the easiest way for you to handle it? - -Mr. MILLER. You mean time? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. MILLER. Probably 9 o'clock would be the easiest. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you come in at 9 o'clock then? - -Mr. MILLER. Okay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. That's all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LOUIS D. MILLER RESUMED - -The testimony of Louis D. Miller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I might state for the record and for your information, Mr. -Ward, Mr. Miller, and I talked on the record a short while yesterday -afternoon, and I don't believe that, when I was talking with him, that -his name was entered into the record, so I think what you will have -to do is get in touch with the court reporter--is it Iris Lennon or -Leonard?--and find out from her just where that is so that these two -different sections can appear together. - -Before I ask you to be sworn, Mr. Miller, I want to ask you if there -are any questions that I can--that you have of me, I can tell you -anything further about the nature of the investigation that is going on -here? - -Mr. MILLER. No; and had you explained to me yesterday what kind of -information you were taking, what it would be used for, anything at all -about it before you started to swear me in, I believe we would have got -a lot further yesterday than we did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to raise your right hand and be sworn? -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. MILLER. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your name, please? - -Mr. MILLER. Louis D. Miller. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how do you spell that? - -Mr. MILLER. [Spelling] L-o-u-i-s. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Miller? - -Mr. MILLER. 1231 Ravina Drive, Garland, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born? - -Mr. MILLER. September 4, 1930. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? - -Mr. MILLER. City of Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long have you been with the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. MILLER. Since August 1955. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what is your rank in the department? - -Mr. MILLER. Detective. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you assigned to any particular bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. Juvenile bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. Since October of last year. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you before that? - -Mr. MILLER. Radio patrol division. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Whose platoon did you work on? - -Mr. MILLER. The last platoon that I worked on was Captain Souter's. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I understand that you were off duty on Friday, -November 22, is that right, of last year? - -Mr. MILLER. The best that I remember, yes, I was off the day the -President was shot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about the next day, Saturday, November the 23d, -were you on duty or off duty that day? - -Mr. MILLER. On Saturday, I should have worked. I don't remember -specifically any particular incident that happened that day that would -bring to my mind that I did work. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there any reason for you to think that you didn't -work that day? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any records of any sort back at the police -department or notes that you have maintained which would indicate -whether or not you worked? - -Mr. MILLER. There should be some, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of records would those be? - -Mr. MILLER. Offenses that was assigned to me, prisoners handled. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you could, when you return to the police -department, if you could check to see if those records are available -and provide copies of them to us, or if you can't make the copies, why -if you will provide us with the originals, why we will make the copy -and return the originals to you. Would you be willing to do that? - -Mr. MILLER. If I could. I would have to look through things that I have -in my locker, a place there, and see if I have any there that were -assigned to me on that date, otherwise it would be next to impossible, -and see what prisoners I did handle. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you supposed to make a report at the end of the day as -to your activities? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don't want you--I am not asking you to go through -that and see what prisoners you handled if you can't find it readily, -but it would be easy to find some record of whether you were on duty at -all, wouldn't it? - -Mr. MILLER. It would be marked in the duty book. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, check that and let us know, and -if you do have any notes that pertain to those days, I would appreciate -that, also. All right. Now, do you have any recollection of when you -first heard in any way that Lee Harvey Oswald might be moved to the -Dallas County Jail? - -Mr. MILLER. No; I don't remember when I heard it or how I heard it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall coming to work Sunday morning on the 24th? - -Mr. MILLER. I remember being at work. As to the time that I came to -work, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time you usually report to work? - -Mr. MILLER. I usually get in the office sometime between 7 and 7:30 and -some days earlier than that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any reason to think you arrived any later than -7:30---- - -Mr. MILLER. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On Sunday? - -Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on it because I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ride to work when you come, take public -transportation, or do you drive? - -Mr. MILLER. I drive. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you drive in alone or with somebody else? - -Mr. MILLER. I drive in alone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Alone? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Sunday, do you recall whether you drove in alone -or with somebody else? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't recall driving in at all that day, as far as that -goes, but I am sure that I did, and I am sure I drove alone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did in the early morning when you -got to work on that Sunday? - -Mr. MILLER. Nothing definite, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you report up to the third floor to the juvenile -bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did when you got to the juvenile -bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir; nothing definite. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you have some indefinite ideas of what -happened up there? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, I can tell you what I usually do when I come up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this a usual day? - -Mr. MILLER. As far as I was concerned, in my business, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the people who were on duty up there on -Sunday morning? - -Mr. MILLER. Let's see. Detective Goolsby, Detective Cutchshaw, -[spelling] C-u-t--I believe he spells his name [spelling] -C-u-t-c-h-a-w. I am not sure about that spelling. Detective Lowery. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else? - -Mr. MILLER. Cutchshaw, Lowery, Officer J. W. Harrison. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that "Blackie" Harrison? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes; and Policewoman McLine [spelling] M-c-L-i-n-e. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Policewoman McLine attached to the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The people that you have listed, is that the full staff of -people who are on duty regularly at that time or are there other people -also ordinarily who would be on duty? - -Mr. MILLER. No; who is on duty would depend on the days off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were any other people, whose -names you might not recall, who were also on duty in the juvenile -bureau that day? - -Mr. MILLER. Captain Martin that day, the best that I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see him up in the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you can think of? - -Mr. MILLER. No; that I can think of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got up to the juvenile bureau that morning, -did you talk to any of these people? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to up there? - -Mr. MILLER. I probably talked to everybody that was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you arrived, were there television cameras -on the third floor hallway? - -Mr. MILLER. The best that I remember, there were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether or not those TV cameras were manned? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember definitely whether they were or not, but I -don't believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you give us some sort of idea of how -crowded the hallways, that hallway was, when you arrived for work in -the morning? - -Mr. MILLER. It wasn't crowded at all when I arrived at work. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you been there before when it was more crowded -than that? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to Saturday, can you give us a -description of what the status of that hallway was on Saturday? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any definite time or whether it was -Saturday, but I had been in the hallway when it was almost impassable. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the police department on Friday at all? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand at the time that you remember this hallway -being impassable was sometime before you arrived for work on Sunday? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have had to have been Saturday? - -Mr. MILLER. It probably was on Saturday, but I don't remember. I -can't remember that it was definitely Saturday or any certain time on -Saturday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it would have been on Friday? - -Mr. MILLER. No; it wasn't on Friday, because I didn't go near the -police station on Friday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were in the homicide or in the juvenile -bureau on Sunday, did any newspaper people or radio or TV people come -into the juvenile bureau for any purpose? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any specific ones coming in, but they were -in and out, so I am sure they did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was their purpose in coming in and out? - -Mr. MILLER. They usually come in to use the telephone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you people able to conduct your activities in -the juvenile bureau with these newspaper people coming in and out? - -Mr. MILLER. They didn't interfere with my business. As far as the other -people assigned to the bureau, I don't know whether they interfered -with them or not. I couldn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business were you transacting in the morning, -Sunday morning? - -Mr. MILLER. Just routine work is all I recall. If you would give me -something definite to go on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were you investigating any particular cases? - -Mr. MILLER. At what time? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you went down to the basement. - -Mr. MILLER. Prior to that time, an officer had brought in two small -children, as I recall. I don't now remember what they were brought in -for, but I was working them, doing the paper work on them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you got up to the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. That was later on in the morning, the best I remember, and -I was working on the paperwork on them when I was told to report to the -basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to bringing in those two children, did you talk with -anybody in the juvenile bureau about the prospective move of Lee Harvey -Oswald to the Dallas County Jail? - -Mr. MILLER. I could have. I don't recall it, though. In fact, I didn't -even know that--for sure that Oswald was still in our jail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, you heard the newspaper reporters come in and -out of the office, didn't you? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any specific incident of when they came in -and out. Like I said, they probably did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear them talk on the telephone? - -Mr. MILLER. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you close enough to them to hear what they were -saying? - -Mr. MILLER. I didn't try to hear them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you close enough to hear them if you had tried to -hear them? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't recall it if I was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts in the juvenile bureau did you work that day? - -Mr. MILLER. We have several desks up there, and it is possible that I -worked at all of them some time during the day. I don't remember any -particular desk or anything like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the juvenile bureau, is it one large room or does -it have a series of rooms in it or what? - -Mr. MILLER. It has several rooms, I would say. It has a reception -office affair in front, and the captain's office is off of that, and -then a short hallway, and the lieutenant's office, there is a holdover -room for children, and then the main office, and then off of the main -office we have two interrogation rooms. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a desk in any one of those offices -assigned to you? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the newspaper reporters, did they come into the main -office on Sunday? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't recall any specific incident where they came in, -but I feel sure that they did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you work at any time out in the front office or -the reception area? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't recall whether I did or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you were requested to go down -into the basement? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what is your best estimate of when that was? - -Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't have any idea. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you got this request, had you been down in the -basement that day? - -Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I had, but I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were asked to prepare a report of your activities -on the 24th, isn't that right, the police department? - -Mr. MILLER. I was asked to write a letter and put in the information of -what position I was in down in the basement at the time Oswald was shot -and things of that nature, not everything that I did that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you requested to make this report? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember what day it was. I don't believe it was on -that Sunday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you were told to do when you were -asked to make out the report? - -Mr. MILLER. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who instructed you to make out the report? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't recall who that was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was it just a general announcement that was made by -one of the chiefs or did somebody in particular approach you? - -Mr. MILLER. It was probably someone in particular, but I don't recall -who it was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss this report with anybody before you made -it? - -Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but I don't recall it if I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it on the 24th that asked you to go down into the -basement? - -Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, it was kind of a general announcement. -Who came up and requested or ordered, or however you wanted to put it, -all of the men to go to the basement, I don't know who that was. As I -say, I was working the papers, typing. I had my---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you working at that time? - -Mr. MILLER. I was working in the main office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And who was in the main office with you at that time? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, since we had been instructed early in the morning to -remain in the office until further notice, I would have to assume that -all of the people assigned up there for that day were present. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody who was there? - -Mr. MILLER. The only one that I can recall specifically is Policewoman -McLine, because after this announcement, request, order, whatever it -was, was made for us to go to the basement, I asked her if she would -finish the paperwork on the two small children for me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Officer Lowery was still there? - -Mr. MILLER. No; I couldn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Officer McMillon? - -Mr. MILLER. Officer McMillon doesn't work out of our office, so I am -sure he wasn't there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Harrison? - -Mr. MILLER. Officer Harrison works out of our office, and he was -on duty that day, but as far as remembering it, anyone other than -Policewoman McLine in particular, I couldn't do it, because I don't -know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what did you do--well, this person who came into -your--who requested that you go down, did that person actually walk -into the juvenile bureau office? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't know, because I didn't see him and I didn't hear -him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, who told you? Who did you hear the request -from to go down? - -Mr. MILLER. Policewoman McLine, I believe it was, the best I remember, -said something about all men have to go to the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at that point, did you walk down to the basement? - -Mr. MILLER. I walked down the hall and caught the elevator to the -basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down with anybody? - -Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, the elevator was full. As far as -remembering any one particular person that was on the elevator, I -couldn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you walk out of the juvenile bureau with anybody? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but I don't recall any particular person -that I walked out with. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how many people you walked out with? - -Mr. MILLER. I sure don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Officer McLine, Policewoman McLine, told you that you -were supposed to go to the basement, what did she say? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't recall her specific words. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you why you were supposed to go down? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of why you were to go down? - -Mr. MILLER. No; I can't say that I actually did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked down to the basement, did you look into the -homicide bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't recall looking in there; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the basement, where did you go? - -Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, I was standing outside of the windows -there in the hallway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you got off the elevator, what did you do? - -Mr. MILLER. Walked over to this hallway where the windows and -telephones there are in the basement outside of the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet anybody down there when you got off of the -elevators before you got to that window, did you meet anybody down -there? - -Mr. MILLER. No particular person that I recall, although there were -several people there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive any instructions from anybody before you -went to this particular station that you mentioned? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know to walk over there? - -Mr. MILLER. I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to walk there? - -Mr. MILLER. There was no particular reason. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was this before Lee Harvey Oswald came down? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't recall how long. It would be hard to estimate it. -It could have been 10 minutes or it could have been longer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I have got another witness out here, Mr. Ward, and I think -maybe it might be well to take a break here a second. I want to talk to -this man. - -(Discussion off of the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller and I have been talking here for a few minutes -off of the record about some of the events prior to his going down into -the basement. - -Now, as I understand it, Mr. Miller, shortly after you got into the -office on Sunday morning, you went some place for some coffee? - -Mr. MILLER. I went to the Deluxe Diner on Commerce Street and had -breakfast. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who did you go over there with? - -Mr. MILLER. Officer Harrison. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time of the morning was that? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember a definite time, but it was probably -somewhere shortly after 8 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did anybody else go over there with you besides -Harrison? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This a place that you regularly go? - -Mr. MILLER. No; not regularly. Occasionally, we go over for a sandwich -or we phone for sandwiches and take them up to the office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you normally take a coffee break right after you go to -work? - -Mr. MILLER. Usually after we get our assignments in the morning, we -take a coffee break and go to work. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive assignments this morning when you came in? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't believe the deskman finished making assignments -when we went over to coffee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the regular deskman? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. Usually we have a regular deskman, except his day off, -and on his days off, everyone takes a turn rotating working at the desk. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. What was the name of the deskman that day? - -Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, Detective Goolsby was on the desk that -day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where was this located on Commerce Street, this diner? - -Mr. MILLER. It is in the 2000 block, I believe it is, almost directly -across the street from the Statler Hotel. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many blocks would that be west of the police -department? - -Mr. MILLER. That would be in the first block. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went in there that morning, were you in uniform? - -Mr. MILLER. No. I never wear a uniform. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of the people who worked at that diner? - -Mr. MILLER. Only when I see them. Now, I know a colored boy's over -there first name. It is Jimmy, I believe, but I couldn't be definite on -that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he in there on that day? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember just exactly who it was on duty. There is -usually three or four working over there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you went in there, did they have -counters and--did they have a counter and tables and booths? - -Mr. MILLER. It is just a counter. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many people were working behind the counter that -day? - -Mr. MILLER. It would be hard to say. Like I was telling you a while -ago, there was usually maybe two, maybe four. It all depends on the -amount of business they expect, I suppose. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go in there often enough so that you were familiar -with any of the people waiting behind that counter although you might -not have known them by name but you would recognize them and they would -recognize you? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't think so. I doubt if I have been in there over a -half dozen times at the most. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison know any of the people in there? - -Mr. MILLER. I believe he did; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I know you can't--I don't expect you to be a thousand -percent accurate on this, but do you have any idea which of the people -in there that he knew? - -Mr. MILLER. No. I have been over there with Officer Harrison, and he -usually speaks to, like this one colored boy, and I believe his name -is Jimmy or Tommy or something like that. I couldn't be sure on that, -but usually speak to him. And when we call up for sandwiches, Officer -Harrison has called up there once or twice to have them make sandwiches -and pick them up, and he usually asks for this one particular boy over -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who suggested going over there for coffee that morning? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember whether I suggested it or whether Officer -Harrison did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, who suggested going out for coffee? - -Mr. MILLER. Like I say, I don't remember whether I did or whether he -did. It would be hard to say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did either you or Officer Harrison ask anybody else in the -juvenile bureau to go out for coffee with you? - -Mr. MILLER. We probably did, but I don't remember it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got over there, how long did you stay at the -diner? - -Mr. MILLER. Probably around 30 minutes at the most. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--what did you and Officer Harrison talk about -over there? - -Mr. MILLER. Now, I couldn't say. Couldn't say we talked about any one -thing in particular. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the investigation of Oswald? - -Mr. MILLER. We could have or we could have talked about Officer -Harrison's rabbit dogs or fishing or numerous things. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the movement of Oswald to the county -jail? - -Mr. MILLER. It is possible that we did, but as far as being definite on -it; I couldn't be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with anybody else over there? - -Mr. MILLER. No one that I recall; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--did either of you receive a telephone call over -there? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who received the telephone call? - -Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, when the person that works there at -the diner answered the phone, he said, "Phoned for one of you," Officer -Harrison answered it and came back to the counter and said we were -to come back to the office as soon as we finished eating and were to -remain there until further notice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who made the telephone call? - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir; he never did, and I never did ask him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether it was somebody from the police -department that made that call? - -Mr. MILLER. I presumed it was, but like I say, I never did ask Officer -Harrison who it was, and that would be the only ones that would be -likely to order us to return to the office and stay there until further -notice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back to the office, did you have some -idea of why you were supposed to remain back there until further notice? - -Mr. MILLER. No; I couldn't say that I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison talk to you at all that day about -Jack Ruby? - -Mr. MILLER. You mean prior to---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time. - -Mr. MILLER. No; I don't think so. I couldn't be definite on that, -either, but I am sure he didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know prior to the time that Ruby shot Oswald that -Officer Harrison knew Jack Ruby? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Officer Harrison? - -Mr. MILLER. I have probably seen him around the police department ever -since I have been here. As far as actually knowing the man, I didn't up -until the time I went to work up in the juvenile bureau in October. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ever, prior to the time that Ruby shot Oswald, -had you ever gone any place socially with Harrison? - -Mr. MILLER. No. The best I remember, when I first came to work down -here, Officer Harrison was riding a motorcycle and I worked in radio -patrol, and the only time you can probably see each other would be -passing, maybe down in the locker room, something like that, and then -he did work out at the pistol range for a while, and when I would go to -the pistol range, I would see him out there, but as far as talking to -him or going any place with him, no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever engaged in any business enterprises with him? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him any way other than in the capacity as a -fellow police officer? - -Mr. MILLER. That is the only way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anything else happen before you went down into -the basement on Sunday morning that you can remember? - -Mr. MILLER. I can remember those 2 children that were brought in and -working--I remember working on the papers pertaining to them and I -remember asking Policewoman McLine, after we had been told to go to the -basement, if she would finish the papers for me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else that happened or anything -else that was said? - -Mr. MILLER. That is prior to going to the basement? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk with Officer -Harrison? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did. In fact, after this was all over up there, -I rode out to Love Field with Officer Harrison, so I am sure I did talk -to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you talk to him about what had happened there in -the basement? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure we did; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him whether he saw Ruby at any time before -Ruby shot Oswald? - -Mr. MILLER. No; I don't believe I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him about how Ruby got down into the -basement? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure we discussed it; yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember about that? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember anything definite, but I believe that more -than likely everybody up there was wondering how he got down in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, immediately after Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do? - -Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, at the time that this happened, I was -walking or trying to walk down towards the corridor for cars to go -through in behind of the officers and Oswald when they came out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to know what you did after Ruby was shot. - -Mr. MILLER. After Ruby was shot? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; or Oswald was shot. - -Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, someone, seemed like, hit Ruby from -behind and pushed him forward. Like I said, I was trying to move that -way when this happened, so I grabbed a hold of Ruby and helped take him -into the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you--were you with Ruby in the jail office when -there were a lot of officers around him? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby put up any sort of a struggle there in the jail -office? - -Mr. MILLER. No; none that I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you--did you have physical hold of Ruby in the jail -office? - -Mr. MILLER. When we got into the jail office; yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Ruby say anything? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say? - -Mr. MILLER. As to definite words, I could give you what he said as best -I remember it, but it may not be his exact words. It could be that he -put some more words in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. - -Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, he said something about--well, first -off, somebody asked, "Who is he?" And he said, "Oh, hell! You guys -know me. I am Jack Ruby." And the best I remember, he said something -about, "I hope the son of a bitch dies," and something about, "It will -save you guys a lot of trouble," or, "It will save everybody a lot of -trouble," something like that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who it was that said, "Who is it?" - -Mr. MILLER. No; I sure don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else that was said while Ruby was -there in the jail office? - -Mr. MILLER. No; because right after that he was moved over to the jail -elevator and was being taken upstairs, and I went out in the basement, -the garage part of the basement, again. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Ruby searched in the jail office while you were -there? - -Mr. MILLER. A quick search, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. A pat-down? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his pockets emptied? - -Mr. MILLER. Not that I remember; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was -taken upstairs? - -Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on that, because the best I remember -it, about the time he was being taken over to the elevator or shortly -after, the ambulance came in and picked Oswald up, and I went back -out into the basement to help try to keep this crowd of reporters or -photographers and what-not out of the way so that they could get the -ambulance in and Oswald loaded into it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain out there in the basement -area assisting with the photographers? - -Mr. MILLER. I would say maybe 45 minutes to an hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you there when Officer Dean was interviewed on -television? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember Officer Dean being interviewed; no. After -the ambulance got out, I went up to the ramp on the Commerce Street -side. There were several people up there who claimed to be reporters -and photographers and what-not trying to get down into the basement and -trying to force their way in, and I went up to assist with that problem. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from the time that Ruby was taken -upstairs and all of the time you were down there in the basement, did -you talk with anybody about how Ruby got into the basement? - -Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but I don't--like I say, I don't -remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any rumors that you heard at that time -about how he got in? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any rumors circulated at that time as to how he -got in? - -Mr. MILLER. There was one that I remember, that he might have -been--came in helping a crew with a television camera that came from -the basement proper there out into the garage part. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear that rumor while you were down in the -basement? - -Mr. MILLER. I believe I did, but I couldn't be definite about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison stay down there in the basement with -you? - -Mr. MILLER. No; I don't believe he did. Now, he could have, but I don't -think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer McMillon? - -Mr. MILLER. I didn't--I don't remember seeing Officer McMillon in the -basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Lowery? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished down there in the -basement? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, after things quieted down up there at the Commerce -Street side, I went back up to the juvenile bureau. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do up there in the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite about it. I probably worked on some -reports, but as to definite---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody up there about how Ruby got into -the basement? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but as far as remembering any particular -person that I talked to or how it was discussed, I couldn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there in the juvenile bureau when you got back? - -Mr. MILLER. Policewoman McLine is the only one that I could say that -was definitely there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Officer Harrison at that time? - -Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lowery? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't know where they were. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when was the first time that you saw Officer Harrison -after the shooting? - -Mr. MILLER. It was later, but as to giving you a definite time on it -from the time that this happened until we came back up to the office, -it would be hard to do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you first see him? - -Mr. MILLER. Back in the office, I believe, the best I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you saw him? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any particular thing that we did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain up in the office? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, the biggest part of the day. Captain Jones, I believe -it was, came down and told me to remain in the office until further -notice again, that I was to remain there until further notice, and -then--let's see--someone else came down shortly after that and had me -go down to the chief's office. I went down there, and Captain Jones -told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and remain until he called -for me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you wanted for in the chief's office? - -Mr. MILLER. No one ever said, and apparently it was a mixup in the -orders there, or something of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually talk with Jones when you got down there -to the chief's office? - -Mr. MILLER. Only that he told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and -wait until he notified me, that he had an assignment for me and he was -going to notify me what it was later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did you remain back in the juvenile -office? - -Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say definitely. I know later on that afternoon, -I believe it was Officer Harrison and Detectives Cutchshaw and Lowery, -the best I remember, and myself, were called down to the chief's office -and given an assignment, but what time it was, a definite time, I -presume it would have been around 4 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And who gave you the assignment? - -Mr. MILLER. Chief Stevenson, the best I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you sent to? - -Mr. MILLER. I was sent to Love Field. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the four of you all go out to Love Field? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you to do out there at Love Field? - -Mr. MILLER. We were to check around the American Airlines ticket office -and watch proceedings around there, around the ticket counter, out -there around the American Airlines ticket counter, the best I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you looking for? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, after we had left the chief's office, we started out -to Love Field, and Captain Martin called us back into the basement, -and, the best I remember, he told us that Mayor Cabell had been -scheduled to go to Washington, or some place, on an airplane, and -they had had a call that there had been a bomb placed on the plane or -was going to be a bomb placed on it, or something of that nature, and -I believe it was because of this that we were sent out to American -Airlines, and my understanding is that the mayor was supposed to have -left on a Braniff plane and changed it and left on an American Airlines -plane later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you looking for around the American Airlines -office? - -Mr. MILLER. Anyone that might have been carrying a gun or a bomb or -anything of that nature. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have a description of anyone in particular to look -for? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you all talk about on the way out there in -the car? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure we talked about this shooting. Again, I couldn't -be definite on it. Like I say, I am sure everybody in the department -was talking about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear in the car about how Ruby was shot, how -Oswald was shot? - -Mr. MILLER. You mean--well. Officer Harrison and myself were in one car -and Detectives Lowery and Cutchshaw in another car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear--what did you hear from Harrison as to -how---- - -Mr. MILLER. Again, I couldn't be definite on any part of the -conversation. Like I say, I am sure we discussed the thing and talked -about it, but as to any definite words, I couldn't be sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, there are various rumors that have circulated about -how Ruby got into the basement, and I am sure you are familiar with all -of them. - -Mr. MILLER. Well, now---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which of the rumors did you discuss in the automobile that -you can remember? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, the best I remember, the only rumor I had heard up -until that time had been the one that Ruby had come in with this camera -crew. Again, I can't be definite, but I believe it was on Monday, the -following day, that I heard this rumor, whatever it was, that he had -entered off---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The Main Street ramp? - -Mr. MILLER. The Main Street ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out there--when you saw Cutchshaw and -Lowery out there at the American Airlines, did you discuss with them -this rumor about coming in with the camera? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure we did, but again I couldn't--any definite words -that were said or anything like that, I couldn't be sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody in that group saying that he saw a -man come by with a camera? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, the best I remember, Detective Lowery, I believe it -was, said something about this camera coming by, and I vaguely remember -the camera coming by myself, but as far as a number of men and who they -were that were bringing this camera in, again I couldn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Harrison? Did he indicate at that time that he -remembered the camera? - -Mr. MILLER. Not that I recall; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Cutchshaw? - -Mr. MILLER. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So Lowery was the only one that you can remember talking -about the camera, having seen this camera come by? - -Mr. MILLER. He is the only one that I recall, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else you want to tell us about the -events of Sunday, November 24th? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, I don't remember anything that I could tell. If I was -asked a question on it and knew the answer on it, I would be more than -glad to answer the question. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any rumors concerning anyone who might have -seen Ruby down in the basement prior to the shooting of Oswald? (Pause) -Is your answer "No"? - -Mr. MILLER. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell me. Were you down in the basement when Rio Pierce's -car drove out of the basement? - -Mr. MILLER. I remember a car driving out, which would be the wrong way -up towards Main Street, but as far as remembering who was driving the -car, I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing when that car drove out? - -Mr. MILLER. I was standing by the door to the jail office, the door -that comes out into the garage portion of the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who stationed you there? - -Mr. MILLER. Nobody. Like I was telling you before, we were out in this -hallway, windows, jail office. Someone that was already out in the -garage part of the basement, I presume, passed back instructions for -everybody to go out and line up on both sides of this hallway affair -that comes out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you received those instructions? - -Mr. MILLER. I was standing in this hallway outside of the jail office -windows there. There is those double doors, swinging doors that come -out into the garage portion of the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the garage side of the swinging doors? - -Mr. MILLER. No; in the basement proper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before Oswald came down? - -Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on that, but it wasn't very long, -possibly 10 minutes. I don't believe it could have been any longer than -that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, where did you go to? - -Mr. MILLER. From the basement proper, after the orders was passed -back to go outside and line up on both sides, I got on what would be -the north side of this little hallway in the garage portion of the -basement, where the ramp comes in, through the hallway that comes out -there, I was on the north side of that and would be on the east side of -the door that goes into the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you keeping an eye out in the basement for people -who might obstruct Oswald? - -Mr. MILLER. Pardon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you keeping a look, a watch out, from your position -for people who might try to obstruct Oswald? - -Mr. MILLER. I was kind of watching the crowd and that, but as far as -having a feeling that anything was going to happen or---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were watching the crowd? - -Mr. MILLER. As to orders to do any particular thing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the crowd that you were watching? - -Mr. MILLER. They were across the ramp that goes down through there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they up against the railing? - -Mr. MILLER. Part of them were up against the railing, part of them, the -best I remember, on the east side of the railing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about, were the people strung across the Main -Street ramp from the direction of the jail house, the jail office, to -the railing? - -Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, there was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, how many lines deep would you say there were -of people along--crossing the Main Street ramp on the north side just -before Oswald came out? - -Mr. MILLER. I recall of people being there, but as to how many rows -there were or a definite number of people, it would be hard to say. -The only thing on that that I could say definitely was that there were -people there, and as to how many, it would just be next to impossible -to say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as Pierce's car came out, what did you do? As -Pierce's car came out of the garage, what did you do? - -Mr. MILLER. I didn't do anything that I remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you look at it? - -Mr. MILLER. I remember seeing a car going out the wrong way up to Main -Street, but as far as looking in the---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch it go up the ramp? - -Mr. MILLER. No; because once it passes this wall there, it passes out -of view. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep an eye on the newsmen in that area as they -re-formed? - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but looking over the crowd and everything, -it would be hard not to see them re-form, or whatever you call it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Blackie Harrison standing when Pierce's car went -out? - -Mr. MILLER. I didn't see Officer Harrison that I remember when this car -drove out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Officer Harrison at any time down in the -basement after you took your position along the north wall just outside -of the jail office? - -Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but as far as remembering seeing -him or saying anything to him after that, I couldn't say definitely. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked for purposes -of identification as Miller Exhibits 5013 and 5014. Now, Exhibit 5013 -is a copy of a report made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin of an -interview that they had with you on December 3, 1963, and Exhibit 5014 -is a copy of a statement that you made or a letter that you addressed -to Chief Curry on November 26, 1963, entitled, "Subject: Shooting of -Harvey Oswald." I am going to ask you to take these and go out into the -other office and look them over and then let me know whether there are -any additions, corrections, changes of any sort that you would want to -make in those. - -(Recess.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. For your purposes, Mr. Ward, may I say that we have Mr L. -D. Miller back with us. - -And have you had a chance to look over Exhibits 5013 and 5014? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To your recollection, are those accurate reports -of--looking at 5013, the FBI report, is that an accurate report of what -you told the FBI at that time? - -Mr. MILLER. Well, there is part of it in here that is a little -confusing. It could mean one thing and then it could mean another. -Now---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that interview? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And are you able to state from your memory whether that is -an accurate report of what you told them at that time? - -Mr. MILLER. There is one part in here. Let me find it. It was, when the -officers were sent to the ramp area prior to Oswald being brought down, -there were officers stationed on both sides of the ramp. The officers -that came down were stationed on both sides of the ramp. I don't recall -telling the FBI that there were already officers stationed there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me see if there was some way you can mark -that on there. Where is this? - -Mr. MILLER. Right here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take this, take my pen, and amend that -so that it reflects what your best recollection is that you told them -at that time? - -Mr. MILLER. Let's see. Where do you want me to put it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You can either write it down below---- - -Mr. MILLER. The whole thing would have to be reworded. This like this -makes more sense to me what I told them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have written there, "The officers that were -sent to the ramp area prior to Oswald being brought down were stationed -on both sides of the ramp." Were you present when the instructions were -given to the officers generally as to where to go? - -Mr. MILLER. To line up on both sides---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes? - -Mr. MILLER. Of the ramp area where Oswald was to be brought through. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Were you present at that time? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who gave those instructions? - -Mr. MILLER. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you were told to do, if anything, -when Oswald got to you? - -Mr. MILLER. I wasn't told what to do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any other corrections that you want to make -in that? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. "Miller said he had no other pertinent information -concerning the shooting of Oswald." I wasn't asked if I had any more -information to give to them. I answered their questions, the questions -they asked me. They did not ask me if I had any other pertinent -information to add. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you change that on there, then, and -state, cross that out, and put something through there and say, "I was -not asked if I had pertinent information"? Now, did you in fact at that -time have pertinent information, other than what they asked you about? - -Mr. MILLER. None that I knew of. It is like now. It could be possible -that you would ask me a question that I would remember something other -than what I have told you, but I wouldn't know what it would be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any other corrections that you want to -make on this FBI report? - -Mr. MILLER. Everything else on it looks like it is just about the way -it should be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you, then, initial the corrections that you have -made on here and date it? - -Mr. MILLER. Where do you want it initialed? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other place, right next to it. And will you initial -the other correction, date it? - -Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 5014, and is that a true and -accurate copy of the letter that you wrote to Chief Curry on November -26? - -Mr. MILLER. That is right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you sign that letter and date it, sign the -piece of paper somewhere down there near the bottom and date it, and -would you sign over here on Exhibit 5013, the point where I identified -the document, would you write, sign your name, and date it? - -Now, let me ask you one final thing. I take it that you have told us -everything at this time that you can remember about the events that I -have questioned you about? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have mentioned everything to us at this point that -you can remember which you think is pertinent to our investigation? - -Mr. MILLER. Everything that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if anything else in the future comes to your -attention that you think might be pertinent to this investigation, -would you come forward and tell us about it? - -Mr. MILLER. Yes; sure will. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Okay. Thank you very much. - -Mr. MILLER. Do you want me to call you, if I check, bring the book up -to the office? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did work that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, bring the book to us. - -Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't be allowed to bring the book out of the office. -It carries the duties time. Everybody's name is in the same book. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, call us and let us know the -pertinent details. - -Mr. MILLER. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. NEWMAN - -The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 11 p.m., on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Newman, my name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of -the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission -was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson on -November 29th, 1963, and under a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. -The Commission has prescribed a set of rules of procedure. Pursuant to -those rules I have been authorized to take your sworn deposition. - -I want to tell you a little bit about what the general nature of the -inquiry is. Of course, this was set up, as you know, after President -Kennedy was assassinated and Lee Oswald died. Our instructions are to -investigate, evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the -facts surrounding the assassination of the President and the murder of -Lee Oswald. - -Now, that includes going into the background of Oswald and Ruby, their -associations and their motives anything that you can think of about -them. We have no authority to send anybody to jail, except for perjury. -We are not like the grand jury, in the sense if we find a crime, and we -are not conducting this examination with the thought that anybody else -is going to use this information to prosecute for crimes of anybody -except for perjury. - -The most important motivating force, I think, in this investigation -is one of national security, not only from the standpoint of finding -out as much as we can so that we can learn how to prevent all of -the occurrences that have taken place in the last four months from -ever happening again, but also, so we can determine if there is any -possibility that there was more than one person involved with either -one of these two men. - -Now, we have asked you to appear here primarily to develop facts -in connection with the murder of Oswald, but if you have any sort -of information that would be relevant to the entire scope of our -investigation, we would like to have it. - -Now, in particular you have been asked to appear here by virtue -of a general request which was made by the General Counsel of the -Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry, a letter was sent to -Chief Curry and a whole list of names was on that letter, and we -indicated that we were going to examine these people. Under the rules -of the Commission, you are entitled to receive 3-day written notice -personally from the Commission, and that hasn't been sent to you. -However, you may waive that notice, and some people insist on it and -others don't. It doesn't make any difference to us, but I would ask you -now whether you would like us to give you the written notice or whether -you are willing to waive the written notice? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I will be willing to waive it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I notice that you don't have an attorney here, and -that you are also permitted to have an attorney in any appearance -before us, and if you have any thought that this would be something -that you think would be desirable, don't hesitate to say so, because, -again, many people have had attorneys here, even down here in Dallas, -and we would be happy to go home and go to bed tonight and take up at a -more convenient time. - -Do you want an attorney? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to ask you to raise your right hand and be -sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your full name, please? - -Mr. NEWMAN. William J. Newman. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And when were you born, Mr. Newman? - -Mr. NEWMAN. January 31, 1937. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. NEWMAN. My street address? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. NEWMAN. 10923 Cotillion. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Cotillion? - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Nods head.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what's your occupation? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I am a mechanical engineer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Ling-Temco-Vought. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ling-Temco--L-i-n--[spelling]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. L-i-n-g T-e-m-c-o V-o-u-g-h-t [spelling]. Three words. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 6 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you also a member of the Dallas Police Reserve? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a member of the police reserve? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, 18 months. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you, are you a graduate engineer? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I am not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many years of education have you had? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I had a year and a half. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of college? - -Mr. NEWMAN. College education. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you attend college? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Arlington State. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that at Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right here in the general area of Dallas? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; it's midway between Dallas and Fort Worth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of courses did you take at Arlington State? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Just general engineering courses. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed at Ling-Temco-Vought? - -Mr. NEWMAN. About 6 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And, can you tell us something about the nature of your -duties with your employer? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I'm a design engineer and lead man. I am responsible for -four or five draftsmen on a given project. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean you are a design engineer; what sort of -things do you do? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, it's mechanical design of high-power transmitters, -radar transmitters, mostly, electronic circuits. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you put things on drawing boards? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you work from plans that other people draw up or -plans that other people conceive, or are you responsible to come up -with ideas? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I work from an electrical schematic, and I am responsible -for the mechanical design and supervision of the other men, to make -sure this work is carried out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you work under a graduate engineer of some sort? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you go through a training program before you -became a member of the police reserves? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that training program? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 9 months. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how often did you go to school? - -Mr. NEWMAN. It was 2 hours a night, 1 night a week. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any compensation in connection with your -services on the police reserves? - -Mr. NEWMAN. None whatsoever. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why does anyone want to be a member of the police reserve? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, civic responsibility, I guess. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any little side benefits of any sort? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, yes. You mean in the way of favors, this type of -thing? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don't know, not necessarily that, but what---- - -Mr. NEWMAN. I enjoy it because I do office work, indoors, and this is a -way of getting out, little something to break the routine. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there favors and what not that you can get on account -of this? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, outside of maybe being overlooked of a traffic -violation, I don't know of any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to paint yourself too good in this way, -because we had one guy who came in here and painted himself real good, -and found out that he was making a mistake. Maybe I am a great skeptic. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, it's like I say, in my case I have always been -interested in law enforcement and it is an outlet, hobby, so to speak. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to say this, I finished interviewing Captain -Arnett, and I found him to be a very fine gentleman, so on the basis -of my experience, I don't have any reason to make these comments. Now, -were you on duty with the reserves the day President Kennedy was shot? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was that evening. That was some 6 or 7 hours after the -assassination. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What time did you come on duty Friday evening? - -Mr. NEWMAN. 7 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got to the police station, who did you report to? - -Mr. NEWMAN. To Lieutenant Merrell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you then assigned? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was then assigned to ride observation with the Radio -Patrol Squad 113. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did riding observation consist of? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this is our normal assignment. We don't normally take -part in police activities unless we are directed by a regular officer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were riding around in the district someplace? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this permit the regular officer to be relieved for -other duties? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No, it didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have had to come in on Friday night anyhow? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday night, on Saturday, were you at the -police department? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; none at all Saturday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On Sunday, did you come in? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, how did you happen to get called in on -Sunday? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was called by Sergeant Sullivan. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time do you believe Lieutenant Merrell called -you? - -Mr. NEWMAN. It was approximately 8:30 or 9 a.m. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix that time? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I just say--I suppose it took me approximately an hour to -get down there and I arrived about 9:30. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You were called in the morning? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. 8:30 or 9 in the morning? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to the time that he called you in the morning, -had you heard anything about the possibility of moving Lee Oswald to -the county jail? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I knew he would be, of course, but I didn't know what -time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, on Friday night, were you on the third floor -at all? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; not at any time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you came in on Sunday where you -parked your automobile? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I parked it across the street from the police garage -on Canton. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On what street? - -Mr. NEWMAN. On Canton, C-a-n-t-o-n [spelling]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And, is that north, south, east, or west of the---- - -Mr. NEWMAN. It's immediately south of the downtown area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far from Commerce Street; how many blocks from -Commerce Street? - -Mr. NEWMAN. As I recall, I think it's 3 blocks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And is a police garage there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you walk up Harwood? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what entrance you entered? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I entered Commerce Street door that leads into the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any recollection of whether there were -any TV wires strung through there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; there was a large van parked on Commerce Street, on -the corner of Commerce and Harwood, and there was all kinds of cables. -I don't recall whether there were any going in that door or not. There -might have been, possibly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any TV cables coming down the Commerce Street -ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you spent some time after you were placed on -duty over in the garage area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as I understand it, close to Commerce Street? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were guarding the door to the enginerooms, in that -general area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, the first thing, when I first got there, I was -assigned to help search the automobiles that were parked in the garage. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to get to that. I am going to go a little -backwards on this. - -Mr. NEWMAN. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to get the questioning. Where you were finally -stationed prior to the time Oswald was shot, was that near the -entrance, the doorway to the engineroom? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to get a map, diagram here, and I would -like for you to try to think back to that. I am going to mark this -Newman Exhibit 5037. Now, Mr. Newman, this is a copy of the diagram of -the basement area of the Police and Court Building in Dallas. I will -try to explain it to you, and then if you have any questions, why, I -will try to answer those. But you see in this area is the jail office, -Harwood is off in this direction. There is Main, there is Commerce -[indicating]. Now, this dotted line here running parallel to Commerce -Street is actually the outside wall above ground level, and here would -be Commerce Street, if you were at ground level, here would be the -sidewalk, here would be the outside wall. However, when you are in the -basement, this diagram purports to represent anyhow, that the basement -wall is this solid black line over here, and I presume that that's -true, although I have never checked it myself. - -Mr. NEWMAN. It looks to be. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do--these other black marks around here represent -posts [indicating]. Now, would you indicate on this diagram where it -was that you were stationed by--well, where it was you were stationed -in connection with the security of the basement, after the search of -the basement? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was placed right at the place of this column. There is -what this is, isn't it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Do you want me to---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just an "X" there [indicating]. Now, as you were standing -there, do you remember whether any TV cables ran through that general -area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. There were none there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There were none. Were there any TV cables that you could -see in the garage area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. By the garage area, you are talking about this area here -[indicating]? I didn't see any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an arrow here that says "to engineroom." Are -you familiar with--is there a door over in that area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not a door as such. I don't believe it can be closed. It's -just an opening there [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an opening? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you can walk into the engineroom there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. Actually walk--in fact, I didn't even know it -was there until that morning, but you can walk onto a landing here and -then down. The engineroom is some 5 or 10 feet lower than that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stand in that general area all the time, from the -time that Sergeant Dean placed you there until Oswald was shot? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; there was one time when I was called back into the -assembly room, back over here. I think they needed some men somewhere -else. They picked four or five men and then I was returned to this -place [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would you estimate that -you were pulled off this spot temporarily? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, it must have been 45 minutes to an hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long were you away from the area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Five minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Let me mark on here pulled off for 5 minutes, 45 -minutes to 1 hour before Oswald shot [indicating]. Did anybody replace -you? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; they didn't--I better not make that statement. I am not -sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to go back and pick things up from the time -you entered. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Okay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it when you arrived down there at the -building? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 9:30 a.m. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I went to the assembly room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the assembly room? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Just long enough to have my name in the unit taken down on -the roster. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Lieutenant Merrell called you, did he tell you why -you were to come down? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you? - -Mr. NEWMAN. He said that Oswald was to be transferred at 10 o'clock, -that they expected some crowds downtown and they thought they would -need our help, or a crowd was gathering, I think is what--the way he -had actually said it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his telling you the time would be 10 o'clock? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I happened to remember it because I had to rush to get down -there in time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything else? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; that was all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down there, did you receive any instructions -from somebody? - -Mr. NEWMAN. He and I walked out into the garage area there and we -talked to some--to Sergeant Dean then. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had the search of the garage already begun when you -arrived? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in connection with the search? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I searched--well, we looked inside all the automobiles. We -checked to make sure the trunk was locked, that the hood was securely -latched, and this general area right in here, there were three or four -of us working that area in there [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are talking now about the Commerce Street half of -the garage? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you do besides search the cars? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That was it, until I was assigned to that post. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see what Sergeant Dean did? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't. The only time I remember seeing him, they -found a sporting type rifle in a car somewhere. I think it was later -identified as belonging to one of the officers. I saw him walking out -with it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period you were standing there in the -garage, were you able to look over in the direction of the Main Street -ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see, during the period that you were in the -garage, any automobiles moved out of the garage? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down--was -brought down the ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't even know it was there. I couldn't see it from -my location. Well, the armored car wasn't brought down the ramp. It was -just backed to the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever a time that you were aware there was an -armored car up there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not until after the shooting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing where you were standing was there anything that -happened, what you would estimate, a half hour before Oswald was shot, -that would be significant to fix the time? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; the only thing I can recall at all, there was a -pop-type noise in that area there. I found out later, when they opened -the door to the armored car a soft drink bottle had rolled out and -broken. That caused quite a commotion among the reporters and some of -them went up the ramp to see what happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you heard that pop-type noise, do you remember -anything else before that that might be significant? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. Other than the movement of the cars and the men in -there, I can't recall anything. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention then to the pop-type noise, -did you see any cars moved out of the basement after you heard the pop? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I am almost certain a car did leave after that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Saw a car leave or more than one car? - -Mr. NEWMAN. One is all I recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that car parked, if you recall? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I am not too sure of that. I think it was parked in -this area just to the bottom of this small ramp here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the map where you think that was? You -want to mark car? - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see that car move to? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, if its the one I am thinking about, they turned and -went out the Main Street side. I recall there was a car came in. I -think it was a squad that had a prisoner. I don't recall it leaving. It -may have. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you recall a car coming in, before or after that -car went out? - -Mr. NEWMAN. It must have been before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You say must have been, because somebody has told you that -a car went out there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; but I am sure--I do recall this car left--oh, not over -5 or 10 minutes, if that long, before Oswald was brought in, and I do -know that no other car left after that, or entered. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, do you remember two cars being moved out of the -garage up behind the armored van? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I recall one that was parked right here. I don't remember -whether there were two or not, but there was definitely one parked -right here on the level part of the ramp [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where that came from; where that car came from? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall, but I think it came from the parking area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't see it moved out of the parking area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. If I did, I don't recall. I am sure I did, but---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Sergeant Dean placed you in the basement, did you -recall where he placed any of the other men? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. The only one I remember was there was a -regular officer--I don't know who he was. He was in this approximate -area here. Do you want me to mark this [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead. Why don't you put a "R" for regular? - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there were any officers over -here by elevators Nos. 1 and 2 and the service elevator? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I am almost certain there weren't any in the garage area, -except he and I, immediately prior to the shooting. There was quite a -few moving around through there before that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before that were they moving around? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would say an hour before that, they were moving in -and out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But let's take the 10 or 15 minutes before the shooting. -Were there any men over by those elevators? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not except the one man. I assume that was his job. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The one man you have marked here with an "R"? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you able to tell whether these elevators No. 1 -and No. 2 were in operation? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; there is no way I had of knowing. I could see the -elevators, but I don't know whether they were in operation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody go up or down those elevators in the -hour that you were at your position? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether or not this service elevator -was in operation? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't know either. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that service elevator? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state positively that there was nobody, -during the period you were here, who you saw in that service elevator? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. I couldn't say that. I just say I couldn't see anyone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you, during the time you were stationed here, did -you see anybody come out of the engineroom area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from where you were stationed -if there was anybody in there, a night watchman or anybody in that -engineroom there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. I couldn't see if there was anybody in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in the 20 minutes or half hour before the shooting, -how many cars would you say were parked in this part of the garage -[indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would estimate there were 20. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in that half hour before the shooting, was there any -traffic in and out of that garage? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Just that one squad, that I recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time that you heard that Coke bottle drop, -where was your attention focused, from your position? - -Mr. NEWMAN. At the time? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. From the time? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, from the time? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What were you looking at in there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, my main concern was this room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was looking occasionally throughout the rest of the area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you faced from there, from where you -have got yourself, what direction you were facing? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was facing in this direction [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion at any time to look over in this -area here [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not until immediately prior to the shooting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What directed your attention over there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Someone yelled, "Here he comes." I believe, "Here they -come," something to that effect. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could hear that from over there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about when you saw an automobile move out of the -garage? Did you follow that automobile--did you watch and see where -that automobile went? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not from the time it got on the ramp. I couldn't see but -about two thirds of the ramp. I couldn't see the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after that automobile left, did you -continue to watch over in that direction? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. There was nothing unusual about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time, or as the automobile was moving out, -can you describe this area, in what I will call the entrance to the -garage, describe how many people were in that area there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would estimate there were 40, 50, 60 people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there substantially more people in the area in -the garageway than in the area along the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; there were more people over in this area here, along -this wall [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you estimate were over---- - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, that's what I meant, I would say over 40 or 50, -total. Out of that, I wouldn't think there were more than 5 or 10, if -that many, in this area here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark down here the placement of the people in -that area at the time you heard somebody yell, "Here he comes." - -Mr. NEWMAN. You just want to know about this one area? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall specifically anyone being there at any -particular place [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, over in this area, can you show me how -they were placed over there [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. There was a group along this wall, there was a group over -here that I could see [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what's your estimate of the number of people that -were in this group? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, from what I could see, I would say maybe 20, just an -estimate. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put about 20 there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many people would you estimate were over in this -cluster that you have marked there [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. From what I could see, it appeared to be about the same -number. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About 20 there. And, how many deep were they? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I couldn't see that much detail. I could just tell -there was a crowd of people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you try to indicate how people were spaced over -in here [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, if there were, they were very sparse. I would just -say individually. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don't you just write in there "sparse." - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the TV cameras were placed? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate on that where the TV cameras were? - -Mr. NEWMAN. As I recall, there were three. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you came into the basement the first time, did -you see a TV camera over in this area here that I have pointed to -[indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not a large camera. There may have been a hand-held camera, -but no large camera. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am indicating on here, so the record will reflect, -I am pointing to the area roughly in front of the jail office door. -For anyone reading this, I will indicate also that this is an area in -which Assistant Chief Batchelor indicated that sometime, that he is not -sure of, in the early morning he saw a TV camera there, and he believes -he had it moved. Now, I take it you don't recall any equipment of any -sort being in this area in here, in the garage [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. TV equipment? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In the entrance to the garage? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this a railing, incidentally [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. This is a small rail right here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me write across here "rail." Now, from -where you were standing, were you able to see over that rail? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Partially. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How high is that rail? - -Mr. NEWMAN. It isn't over 3 feet. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a solid thing or is it a metal set---- - -Mr. NEWMAN. Just made of pipes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it any different from the railings that's along the -Commerce Street ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Same type railing, I believe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Same type of railing. And the railing that's marked in -solid on the other side of the entrance to the garage next to the chief -parking area, which I will also label rail, that's the same kind of -railing as the ones over near the TV cameras? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, your vision from where you were standing was not -substantially obstructed by any permanent parts of the building, from -where the marked curb on the ramp is, all the way down, perhaps to -this, all the way down to this railing here [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. It was somewhat obstructed by these columns, but nothing to -keep me from getting an overall view of the area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what do you recall happening after the automobile -drove out of the drive and went up the Commerce Street ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anything until I heard that "Here he comes," -called out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard the "Here he comes"? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I looked up in that direction. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you see when you looked up in that direction? - -Mr. NEWMAN. All I saw was the newsmen congregating to that area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they seem to be pushing in from? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, they were making a round in this general area in here -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the area up in the ramp, Main Street -ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How deep were they in the Main Street ramp, by that time? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I would guess two or three, but that's just a guess. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does that include policemen, also? - -Mr. NEWMAN. You mean the number of people? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say the total number of people was two or three -deep there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it solid across from this wall to the railing? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I couldn't see that much detail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over in that direction, after you heard -"Here he comes," and you saw this milling around, what is the next -thing that you remember seeing? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, like I said, I saw these people congregating to this -area. I did see a man come down this ramp [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw a man come down the ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see him come down the ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. It was just immediately after that was called out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And whereabouts did you first see him when he was on the -ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would say in about the location of this arrow -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put a mark there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you see that man do? - -Mr. NEWMAN. He just ran down in here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to run down into the center or to one side or -what? - -Mr. NEWMAN. From the angle I was looking, I couldn't tell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that man--how that man was dressed? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see that man emerge? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby move forward at Lee Oswald? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were standing here, could you see the areaway here -[indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I could because of the car that was parked -here. I don't recall seeing the area. I don't recall not seeing it. I -don't much think I could, though, because there was a car parked right -here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to mark this in pencil. Is that -about where this car was [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I would say it was just about that location [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And is the way we have got this drawn here at -this point, with the one pencil mark in there, the way the area from -here on up, all the way up to here and the whole building appeared at -the time Oswald was shot, from this spot [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's the way it appeared to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us anything about that area there -[indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. I do remember one thing, now, that was--some half hour -before that, where another automobile was parked, if you are interested. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. NEWMAN. It was parked, I would say, approximately here. I will mark -this "second auto"; is that all right [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Just mark it "car one half hour before shooting." - -Mr. NEWMAN. All right [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that car there at the time that Oswald was shot? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; it wasn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that car moved? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall it being moved. It might possibly have been -the car that left here. I do know there was a car over here. I wasn't -paying that much attention as to what they were doing. This might -possibly have been this car; I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure where the car that went up the ramp came -from, but you did see a car go up the ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this car that moved through the line of -newsman? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not that I recall. I didn't pay any attention to it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have indicated that this car you saw move -out, moved out 5 or 10 minutes before the shooting. Now, I know it's -awful difficult, we have been here talking, and I frankly haven't -any idea how long we have talked. Maybe it is easier to pinpoint the -movement of that car in terms of when you heard that pop bottle? - -Mr. NEWMAN. All I know, it was sometime between the bottle and the -shooting. I would say I can't pinpoint it even within 10 minutes, but I -do know it was a short time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I will mark this, "Exhibit, Dallas, Texas, W. J. -Newman," no; I take that back. I will mark it, but I think it best that -we go through this whole thing chronologically. W. J. Newman, 3-25-64, -Exhibit 5038. Now, what did you do after the shot was fired? - -Mr. NEWMAN. As soon as I heard the shot fired, I ran up into this place -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think we need to mark it. You stood at the base of -the garage ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this officer came up to about--well, opposite me---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. To make this, maybe, a little easier, let's take the -pencil and you mark where you went to with pencil, and draw a line to -it, and then mark where this other fellow went. Why don't you put an -arrow, so we know which direction we are moving? - -Mr. NEWMAN. (Indicating). - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you remember what the name of that officer -was? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do as you got up to that spot? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, he or I, neither one had anyway of knowing what -had happened, other than the fact a shot had been fired, and he -said, "Don't let anyone leave." There was a man came at me from this -direction, running towards me. I stopped him [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Was he a newspaper man or what? - -Mr. NEWMAN. He later told me he was a member of one of these camera -crews. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do with him when you stopped him? - -Mr. NEWMAN. We scuffled a couple of seconds there until he recognized I -was a police officer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. And as I recall, he said, "I am not trying to leave. I -will stay with you. I just want to get away from there," or something -to that effect. He didn't stand there but for a minute. Then he asked -me if he could go back to the crew. I told him he could, but not to try -to leave the building. I still didn't know what had happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why would he run off in that direction? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. There was a man crouched behind this column -here [indicating]. I assumed, I still do, he was probably just trying -to find some place to go. Those columns offered the most protection. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain there after you stopped that -man? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Until the ambulance arrived. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe this man that you stopped? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I can't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn what TV crew he was from? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the ambulance came, did you continue to remain -there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I moved up to the base of the Commerce ramp here. There was -another officer in plain clothes here--some newsmen tried to follow the -ambulance out and we stopped them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. That was a plain clothes officer, I think you -said. - -Mr. NEWMAN. I think we stopped him. He showed us his identification and -he went on up the ramp. Not more than, oh, 2 or 3 minutes after that, I -assume they decided to let these men go where they wanted to. I don't -know that for a fact, but at any rate I was sent out on the corner of -Main and Harwood to direct traffic. There were quite a few police units -coming in from different parts of town. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out on the corner of Main and -Harwood? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not over 10 minutes. A motorcycle officer relieved me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Then I returned to the assembly room and I was sent out to -Parkland. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive out at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know exactly. From what happened, I would say 12:15 -to 12:30, but that's just an approximation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was there until about 4:30 in the afternoon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody out there at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I talked to quite a few officers there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you stationed at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was right on the entrance where you turn into the -hospital off of Harry Hines. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what police officers you talked to? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any except Captain Solomon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were out there, did you tell anybody -about having seen this man come down the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; at the time I didn't place any significance on it, -because I still didn't know what happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were standing out there, did you hear any -discussion about the name of the man who had shot Oswald? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not there. The officer who relieved me on the traffic -detail there on the corner asked me if I knew it was Jack Ruby that had -done it. That was all he said. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer that relieved you? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know his name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at 4 o'clock? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; it was at--oh, 12:15 or 12:30, on the corner of Harwood -and Main. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you got to Parkland Hospital, you knew -Ruby had shot Oswald? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I knew a man named Jack Ruby had shot him. The name didn't -mean anything to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you relieve Officer Vaughn at the Main Street entrance? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Right here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you went to Main and Harwood? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right; I did. On the way back I did spend, oh, maybe -5 minutes here at this entrance [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You did? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Directing traffic. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Officer Vaughn there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall the officer's name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out to Parkland Hospital, did you tell -anybody out there the name of the person who shot Oswald? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember some of the officers who were out there at -Parkland Hospital? By this, I mean reserve officers as well as regular -officers? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anyone by name except Captain Solomon. I -haven't been in the reserve long enough to know too many of these -men. I know there were 5 reserves--or 4 others and myself, who were -transported out there in the squad car. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know any of the reserve officers by name, -outside of Solomon? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, yes; I know them, but I don't know any of those people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Had you ever worked before with any of the reserve -officers who were out there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I had gone through school with one of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that? - -Mr. NEWMAN. There again, I can't tell you his name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe him? - -Mr. NEWMAN. He was--I would know his name if I saw it. Oh, rather tall, -I would say about 6'2", wavy black hair, medium built. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he wear glasses? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he does, where he is employed? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old is he? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I guess late twenties. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where he lives? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see this particular officer out at Parkland -Hospital? - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him? - -Mr. NEWMAN. He relieved me sometime in the middle of the afternoon so I -could go get a cup of coffee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him about what had happened down there in -the basement? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. The only thing I said, I just relayed to him the -instructions I had. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember telling anybody out there about seeing a -man coming down the ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that you did not tell anybody? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I know I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know you didn't tell anybody that. When did you first -become aware that this might be significant, that you saw this man come -down the ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. When I was interviewed by Lieutenant Revill. It must have -been the following Sunday. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After you got off duty at Parkland Hospital, where did you -go? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I went back to the Police and Courts Building and was -assigned on the second floor, security detail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Captain Talbert was? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know the gentleman. It was right outside of the -city planning office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. Was this on the second floor of the municipal building? - -Mr. NEWMAN. The Police and Courts Building. The city planning or---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the jail part of the building? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. On the second floor, just to the right of the -elevator, there is some city offices there other than the police -department. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were on the elevator, stationed on the elevators -there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I was at the stairway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you to be doing there at the stairway? - -Mr. NEWMAN. My instructions were that no one was to be in there except -press, police, and anyone who had a business. There were several -civilians who came into the building. I recall one witness who, in -accident, he was escorted into where he was going and escorted out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Until about 8:30 p.m. About 2 hours. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I was relieved and went home. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, while you were there, did you talk to -Sergeant Dean? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, no; but I didn't see Sergeant Dean the rest of the -day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before you left duty, did anybody from the -police department talk to you about writing a report or anything like -that? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were standing around there before you left -duty, did you hear any rumors about how Jack Ruby got in the building? -What was the first rumor that you heard about how Ruby got in the -building? - -Mr. NEWMAN. The first I heard was not over 2 weeks ago in an account in -a newspaper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. It was not over 2 weeks ago in an -account---- - -Mr. NEWMAN. An article. The first--anything I had heard, rumor or -otherwise, as to how he got into the building. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean 2 weeks ago from today? - -Mr. NEWMAN. During the trial, approximately 2 weeks. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't hear any rumors over television; didn't read -any rumors in the newspaper? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, let me retract that. I do recall a statement that -Ruby himself made. I don't remember when it was. It was sometime in the -4 months between the incident and the trial. I think he had boasted how -easy it was, or he couldn't have planned it that well, or something. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take a daily newspaper? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take any news magazines? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Time? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Life? - -Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness shakes head.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday Evening Post? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Read any magazines? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I read some magazines but no news magazines. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, do you subscribe to any? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. American Rifleman and Readers Digest. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are the only two magazines you subscribe to? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take both daily newspapers in town? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you try to keep abreast of the articles on the Ruby -killing of Oswald, after this event? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I think I read just about every word that was printed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn't see a single rumor in any newspaper about -how he got in? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I won't say I didn't see it. I will say I don't recall it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall an article, for example, that was written -about Sergeant Dean, where Sergeant Dean said, was quoted as saying he -saw a man come down the Main Street ramp; do you recall that article? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't. The reason I remember so well is because this -article I saw 2 weeks ago satisfied my curiosity. I had been curious -all that time. I knew from what Lieutenant Leavelle told me, or from -the remarks he made, that with the men with him there--he wasn't -making the remarks to me, but I think, when I told him about this, he -turned to the other men and said, "Well, that's it." That's the only -information I heard. The police officers I worked with and so forth had -been very shut mouth. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first requested to make a statement or -prepare a letter or something of that sort for the use of the police -department? - -Mr. NEWMAN. It was the following Sunday, the week from the day of--the -day Oswald was shot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that? - -Mr. NEWMAN. First request? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Newman -Exhibit No. 5038. Would you read that over [indicating]? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I am going to have to back up. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this purports to be a copy of a letter which you -signed and was addressed to Chief Curry and dated November 26, 1963. -Did you prepare that letter? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Let me think. The Tuesday night afterwards, Lieutenant -Merrell gave me a mimeographed questionnaire for me to complete and -return to him and I think I did it right there on the spot. It was a -very vague type thing. When I say statement, I am talking about the -statement that I did sign the following Sunday, where they had this -information that I had given them typed in the form of a statement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in this statement you indicated that you saw -Lieutenant Stuets and Lieutenant Crowey--Sergeant Crowey, of the -reserves in the same area you were in? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I saw them that morning. They were not in the same area -that I was in. I had seen them in the basement that morning. I don't -have any idea where they were at the time. I happen to know now where -Sergeant Crowey was, but I found that out later. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see Sergeant Crowey in the basement that -morning? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't remember. It was sometime before the---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by this statement in here that, "Names of -other officers in the same area that I can't recollect." What do you -mean by the same area? - -Mr. NEWMAN. By the same area there I meant the basement proper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement do you remember seeing him? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant Crowey? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any specific area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement area did you recall seeing Stuets? -Now, is Lieutenant Stuets or Sergeant Crowey, either one of them, this -regular officer that you have got marked here with an "X"? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I know that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as that is concerned, then, you saw many -officers in here who you would remember, whose names you would remember? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. The way I took that question and the way I answered -it, those are the only two officers I saw that morning in the basement -whose names I did remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they help you search the basement? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't believe so. They have been searching in another -area, but they weren't right with me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Arnett that day? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Let me try to--I know he was there, but I don't think I -saw him. I may have seen him after the shooting. There was so much -confusion then that I wasn't paying too much attention to who I was -seeing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of an officer on the police force named -Blackie Harrison? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Chief Batchelor when you see him? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I would. I have only seen the gentleman one -time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Butler when you see him? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Jones when you see him? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Officer Lowery when you see him? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of the officers in the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I would know one if I saw him. I don't know him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Miller in the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize the name of this guy in the juvenile -bureau, if I gave you his name? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; as far as I know, I have never heard it. I have only -been in there, I think, twice. - -(Pause.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are a d--- l---. I want you to come back tomorrow -night and I want you----I want to question you some more. - -Mr. NEWMAN. I certainly don't appreciate that accusation. I have given -you all I can, to the best of my memory, for 4 months. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to regard yourself as still under the -obligation to appear, that you are already under, by virtue of having -waived any notice here, and I would like to recess to continue this -deposition until 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon in this office. If you -would care to consult with an attorney at that time, or anything like -that, and would like to come in here with one, I would be most happy -for you to do so. - -Mr. NEWMAN. May I ask: What are you getting at? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, frankly, after having sat here for an hour and -having listened to this testimony, my own personal opinion, either you -are absolutely not telling the truth or plenty of other people who have -been in here aren't telling the truth. Somehow I am going to see how -the devil we can reconcile these differences. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. NEWMAN RESUMED - -The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 4:08 p.m., on March 26, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that at 4:08, March 26, 1964, the -deposition of Mr. W. J. Newman, which was commenced last night with -Mr. Burt W. Griffin conducting the investigation, but which was not -completed last night, is now being resumed by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -staff member, conducting the deposition. - -Mr. Newman, are you willing to continue the deposition at this time? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you understand that you are under the same oath that -you were yesterday when the deposition began, and all through the -deposition? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that you regard yourself as being under the same oath? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show, also, that I have been designated by -Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to take the sworn -deposition of Mr. William J. Newman. - -Mr. Newman, I simply want to mark for identification so that we will -all know what we are talking about certain papers and letters and -reports so that we can refer to them by the designation marked on them. - -Now, I notice that last night, apparently, the last exhibit number -that was used by Mr. Griffin was No. 5038, in connection with a letter -dated November 26, or rather it is a copy of a letter dated November -26 addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, the original of which, -apparently, signed W. J. Newman. - -Since I do not know what sequence of the letters Mr. Griffin has used -since he started your deposition, I am going to number the documents -that we will be talking about now by using the same basic number 5038, -adding the letters "A", "B", "C", etc., as far as we need to go. Now, -in that connection, I am marking an undated statement--an undated -document, I beg your pardon, undated document entitled "Statement of -Police Reserve Officer William J. Newman." It is also unsigned. And -it is to be found in the Commission Document 81-A point 79. For the -purpose of identification, I am marking it "Dallas, Tex., March 26, -1964. Exhibits 5038-A. Deposition of W. J. Newman." Sign my name below -it. Then for the purposes of identification, also, I am marking a -verifax or photostatic copy of "Officer's Memorandum dated December -6, 1963, to Lieutenant Revill, from Detective R. W. Westphal," which -document is to be found in Commission Document 81-A point 79. And, -I am marking that "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. That's Exhibit -5038-B. Deposition of W. J. Newman," and signing my name below on -that document. Then the next document is a letter, or verifax or -photostatic copy of a letter, dated December 31, 1963, to J. E. -Curry, signed by Jack Revill, and C. C. Wallace, purporting to be a -report on an interview by Reserve Officer W. J.--William J. Newman, -No. 317, and for the purposes of identification I am marking that -document "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5038-C." Continuing -your identification, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5038-C. -Deposition of W. J. Newman." I am signing my name on that document, -which is also to be found in Commission Report--Commission Document No. -81-A point 79. Finally, I am marking what purports to be a copy of the -report by FBI Agents James C. Kennedy and Leo L. Robertson, concerning -an interview with William J. Newman on December 24, 1963, and for -identification I am marking that document, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, -1964. Exhibit 5038-D. The deposition of W. J. Newman." And signing my -name on that document. - -Now, Mr. Newman, you have had an opportunity, I think, to read these -various documents there, 5038, then 5038-A, B, C and D. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. The only purpose of asking you to read them and to compare -them is to ask you if you can assist us at getting at the facts, and -that is all we want to know. - -There seems to be some contradiction between them. Maybe there is not. -If there isn't and you can show us that there isn't, that is all we -want to know. If there is a contradiction, we would like to have your -explanation, if we can, as to what is the truth, because that is all we -want to know anyhow. If there is a contradiction, it is obvious that -one of the statements must be wrong, and all we want to do is tell us -which is wrong and which is right. That is the sole purpose of this -inquiry. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Be happy to; if I can. - -Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps I can get at it this way: These reports seem -to indicate that you saw a man coming down the ramp. These records -also seem to indicate that you saw a man climbing over a rail in the -basement. Now, I think we can clarify this situation immediately by -asking you, do those reports relate to two different instances? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a man climbing over the rail, and -there was a man coming down the Main Street ramp, and as far as you -know they are two different episodes? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Two different things. - -Mr. HUBERT. Two different things. All right. We got a lot clarified -there. Now, I think the other point is when did each of these happen, -and let's take, first of all, the man coming down the ramp. - -Mr. NEWMAN. This, as I stated there, was, as near as I can estimate, -approximately 1 minute or less prior to the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said in your statement that because of the -various conditions existing you could not identify the man by name or -sight or anything of that sort? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when he was coming down the ramp? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. I have also--I have never made any estimate. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; that's correct. I didn't mean to intimate that you had. -It is a fact that a man coming down--that you did see a man coming -down, but you really don't know who he is, and that never have known? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, seen pictures and so forth of Jack -Ruby since? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the man coming down the ramp was Jack -Ruby? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No; I wouldn't. By the same token, I wouldn't say that he -wasn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you can't say whether he was or wasn't? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I just didn't pay that much attention to it -at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was definitely about a minute before the shooting? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, I think we have that one clarified, so far as that is -concerned. - -Now, about the man jumping over the rail, what is your best thought -about the timing on that? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I have none. When I talked to Lieutenant Revill, I think -this was Sunday the 1st of December, I guess it would be, and he asked -me two or three times whether I had seen a man go over the rail. I -couldn't recall anyone. Later, I think it was, oh, two days later, I -am not sure, I did remember seeing someone go over that rail, but as I -stated in that statement, I cannot, for the life of me, set the time in -any figures. Just something that registered, and that was the end of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that when you say "it", you couldn't tell whether it -was before the shooting or after, you can't tell whether it was a -minute before or a minute after, 5 minutes before or 5 minutes after, -or for that matter more time before or more time after? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I know not longer than 5 or 10 minutes after, because -I wasn't there. I couldn't establish it at any time. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that your best recollection right now, today, is simply -that you have a recollection of a man going over the rail from the -parking area into the ramp. - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the ramp was it; do you remember? - -Mr. NEWMAN. About midway. - -Mr. HUBERT. About midway? But, you don't know? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Just---- - -Mr. HUBERT. The relation of it as to time of the shooting, except that -it couldn't have been when you weren't there, obviously. - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You remember how the man was dressed? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you this, too: Do you know whether it was, or was -not, or do you have any opinion on whether it was or was not Jack Ruby, -or do you have any opinion as to who it was at all? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I have no opinion whatsoever. I would like to say in -that, since we are talking about this incident, that when I talked to -Detective Westphal--was it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Lieutenant Revill was out of town. He didn't indicate to me -that he placed any importance on it whatsoever. I was not aware of the -fact that he had even written a memo on it. Mr. Griffin, last night, -did not bring it up, and I, after talking to him, dropped the subject. -Didn't see fit to bring it up, or didn't even remember it. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is this undated statement which we have identified as -5038-A, the one that is also unsigned? Do you know anything about that -at all? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. I would guess probably that information was -taken down at the time I talked to him on the telephone. That is, by -and large, the statement I made to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had called him on the telephone as indicated, in fact, -by Exhibit 5038-B, when Westphal reports on it, says, "Subject." That -means you, "called this date." Did he ask you when--in other words, he -left a call for you, is that correct? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Now, I called him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You called him to tell him what? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Just to give him that information that I had remembered -since I talked to him the previous time, because at the time he seemed -to think it was fairly important. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you go out to Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man, reserve officer by the name of -Holly? - -Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall. I spoke to several reserve officers. I -can't recall any of them as to who they were. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling anyone of them about having seen -either of these two men that we just talked about, that is to say, the -man coming down the rail, or coming down the ramp, or the man coming -over the rail? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No, at the time I didn't even recall placing any -significance on the fact, because at the time I didn't even know what -had happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall talking to anybody about either of these -two episodes, the man going down the ramp and the man jumping over the -rail while you were at Parkland that day? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No, I didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your statement, but I think I had better -get it exactly straight, that you did not do anything with respect to -either of the two men? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No, I had no contact with them. - -Mr. HUBERT. I didn't mean that contact, so much as I meant taking some -police action. - -Mr. NEWMAN. No, that is what I meant too. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Do you know an officer by the name of Brock? -Reserve officer, I believe. - -Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't. I don't recognize the name. - -Mr. HUBERT. And one by the name of Worley? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't recognize that name either. I might know him on -sight if I see him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any other comments to make? I think the -thing is clarified. - -Mr. NEWMAN. No, we had our misunderstanding last night. I didn't know -what needed to be clarified. I know I was thoroughly shaky and possibly -not too accurate as to the details of what happened in that basement -prior to the shooting in the hour or hour and a half, but that wasn't -my concern, and I didn't pay too much attention. I just gave it as best -I remembered. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn't at the deposition last night, so I don't -know what went on, and I, therefore, will not ask you any further -questions. - -Have you had any interview with me prior to taking of this deposition -today? - -Mr. NEWMAN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. I think that is all. Thank you for coming very -much. - -Mr. NEWMAN. I do have one other thing here that Mr. Griffin seemed to -be concerned about last night, in that I couldn't identify a man, a -reserve officer I had met in the basement of the garage, or immediately -after I got there by name. That that you are holding is a class picture -that was made. I can now identify--I have a list of names in my pocket -if you want them. - -Mr. HUBERT. The only way for it to be of the use would be if you would -let me mark the picture and put it in the record. - -Mr. NEWMAN. You may have it if you like. I don't know whether it is of -any importance or not. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don't either, but--do you want it to go in? - -Mr. NEWMAN. Not necessarily. I am leaving it up to you. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I say, I don't know what the question was last night -about identification, and you have brought this matter up; I am -perfectly willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think it -would be better, if you comment about it, to put it in the record, but -on the other hand maybe it wouldn't be necessary. Why don't you say -what you have to say about it and then we can judge better? - -Mr. NEWMAN. As near as I can recall, when he was questioning me about -what officers I had seen in the basement that morning whom I knew, and -the subject came up that I had seen one man but I could not remember -his name. He asked me at that time for a description of him and I gave -it to him. After looking at that picture last night when I got home, -and with the list of names I had for the picture, I can now give the -man's name, if you would like it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; go ahead. - -Mr. NEWMAN. Third from the left--second from the left on the back row. -Casten, Jerome Casten. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. Now, that was the reserve officer that Mr. -Griffin was questioning you about last night, and, as I understand it, -you testified that you did remember seeing a man, and you gave his -description, but at that time you did not know his name? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. With the aid of this picture, which as I understand, is a -class picture--I see Captain Solomon there, by the way--you identified -him as the second man in the top row from the left, and you stated his -name to be---- - -Mr. NEWMAN. Jerome Casten. - -Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. I think it would be better if you would -allow this to go in. I am, therefore, marking the picture on the -reverse side thereof by placing the following on it, to wit: "Dallas, -Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5038-E, deposition of W. J. Newman." -Then I am signing my name below that, I am placing an "X" over the man -you have identified, and placing my initials next to the "X"; is that -correct, sir? - -Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I don't remember seeing that man throughout -the rest of the day, and to the best of my knowledge he was assigned -somewhere other than the basement quite sometime prior to the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we were both -talking about the same document all the time, I wonder if you would -mind placing your name below mine on each one of these? - -Mr. NEWMAN. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BOBBY G. PATTERSON - -The testimony of Bobby G. Patterson was taken at 4:07 p.m., on April -14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bobby G. Patterson. - -Mr. Patterson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. - -Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, -joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by -the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint -resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, -Mr. Patterson. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mr. Patterson, the nature of the inquiry today -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, including -what you know about what Jack Ruby might have had to do with it. - -Mr. Patterson, I think you have appeared here by virtue of an -individual request made to you to appear here--was that by a letter? - -Mr. PATTERSON. By a letter. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that letter addressed to you by J. Lee Rankin, -General Counsel of the Commission--when did you receive it? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Monday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Sunday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Sunday. - -Mr. PATTERSON. I came back Sunday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any objection to testifying now? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. The reason I say that is that under the rules of the -Commission a person is supposed to have a 3-day notice before they can -be required to testify, but the rules also provide that you can waive -it if you want to. If you are willing to testify and waive the 3 days -notice, we can go ahead. - -Mr. PATTERSON. I am as willing as he is. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; would you stand up and raise your right hand and -I will administer the oath. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Bobby G. Patterson. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Thirty-three. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what is your residence? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Mesquite, Tex., 3463 Caracas [spelling] C-a-r-a-c-a-s. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your occupation is what? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Patrolman, Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Oh, about 5-1/2 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do before that? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I worked for American Beauty Flour Co. down here on -South Ervay. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Patterson, I have shown you a document which for -the purpose of identification I have marked in the right margin the -words, "Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964. Exhibit 5311, Patrolman Bobby -G. Patterson," and I have put my name on it, and since it contains a -second page, I have put my initials at the bottom of the second page, -and I ask you if you have read that document? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. That purports to be a report of an interview of you made by -Special Agents Horton and Propst [spelling] P-r-o-p-s-t, on November -30, 1963, does it not; is that correct? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I believe it is--I wouldn't say for sure--it was on -Saturday, I believe--I don't know when it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, I ask you if you think that this report -identified as Exhibit 5311 is a fair report of the interview that you -had with the FBI agents? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It is a fair report. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you would like to add or delete or -modify with respect to Exhibit 5311? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, that's just about it. As far as the time, now, I -don't know about some of the time in my report and every report and -stuff like that--I don't know if that makes any difference or not. That -is as near as I could get it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this--you say you are not sure about -the times that are stated in this report, Exhibit 5311. I take it that -you weren't sure really at the time that they interviewed you; is that -correct? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes--you know, the correct time? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, I note that where this exhibit does -mention time, it says "about." - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, that's what I put it, "about." - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not know Ruby at all? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were at the top of the Commerce Street ramp? - -Mr. PATTERSON. The ramp; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. From about 9:30 on--you never left it? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I never left it. - -Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, no one unidentified was there? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No one without proper identification. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you understood was meant by "proper -identification"? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he said not to let no one in except police and -reporters unless they had proper identification. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said they told you--who was that? - -Mr. PATTERSON. The sergeant. - -Mr. HUBERT. Sergeant Dean? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, with respect to police, I guess their -uniform would establish their identity? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, they have a regular identification. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were instructed to have them show their official -identification? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did so? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the identification of newsmen? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the best I could tell, they pulled out all the -identification--part of them had pictures of who they worked for, where -they lived, some of them didn't have nothing, some of them had stickers -and I had to turn one of them back--I did--he come up there in a WRR -truck and got out of it but didn't have no identification and he had to -go back and get some. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as far as you were concerned, you were not -satisfied if a man just simply had a badge on saying "press"? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went further and required something that would satisfy -you? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes--anybody can pick up a press badge. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you actually turned back some people who claimed to be -the press, but you weren't satisfied with their identification? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you require a picture? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Some of them had pictures and some of them didn't--some -of them had where they lived--on down further who they worked for and -what press--and they had cameras on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, if they had that sort of thing, you figured that that -was proper? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it's proper identification--you know half of them -didn't know they were supposed to have the pictures. Of course, I don't -guess the chief or anybody notified them to have pictures like they did -down at the county. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you considered that the identification you required as -to newsmen, when they didn't have a picture, would be such as would -satisfy you in normal police work in identifying anybody? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Driver's license and things of that sort? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Well, sometimes I would have them show me their driver's -license and that on top of their identification too, to make sure that -was the same person. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you stayed in that position I guess from about 9:30 -until actually---- - -Mr. PATTERSON. Almost 12 o'clock, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. After the killing--after the ambulance went through? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been given any instructions as to how the transfer -was to take place? - -Mr. PATTERSON. All they told me was that he would be transferred by -armored car and for me to stay on the right side of it--of the armored -car--as it was being backed in, and I stayed there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have previously handed you another document which -I have marked for identification by writing on the margin as follows: -"Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5312, Deposition of Patrolman -Bobby G. Patterson," and I have signed my name below. - -Now, I show you that document? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it and have read it? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You consider that it is correct and states the truth? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any modifications or adjustments? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It is about as true as I could get it. - -Mr. HUBERT. No deletions or anything to add? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Who? - -Mr. HUBERT. Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne Crafard? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a telephone, sir? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your telephone number, please? - -Mr. PATTERSON. BRoadway 9-0394. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you had that number? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Oh, about--almost a year. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar at all with the telephone number WH-2-5326? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No, sir; I never heard tell of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Robert Carl Patterson, -also known as Bobby Patterson? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your middle initial is "G" and that stands for what? - -Mr. PATTERSON. Gene [spelling] G-e-n-e. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you are not a person by the name of Robert Carl -Patterson? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever lived at 902 East Waco Street, Dallas? - -Mr. PATTERSON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Patterson, I am going to show you a page in an exhibit -which has been re-marked, "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5308, -Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," on which I have signed my name, and -that same group of pages has also been marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205, -in connection with the testimony of another witness? - -On one of the pages thereof, I show you the number "WH-2-5326, Bobby -[spelling] B-o-b-b-y Patterson." Is that your handwriting? - -Mr. PATTERSON. It isn't mine--no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that at all? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I sure don't--I haven't heard tell of that number. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed previous to this time by any -member of the Commission's staff? - -Mr. PATTERSON. I never have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you; that's all. - -Mr. PATTERSON. Okay. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RIO S. PIERCE - -The testimony of Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:20 p.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Rio S. Pierce, with the -Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Pierce, my name is Leon D. Hubert, -Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the -President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order -No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress -No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in -conformance with the Executive order and that joint resolution, I have -been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Lieutenant -Pierce. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's -inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent -death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Lieutenant Pierce, -the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know -about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know -about the general inquiry. Lieutenant Pierce, you have appeared today -by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, -the General Counsel of the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the -Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to the -taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that you may waive -that 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so, and I ask you---- - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I waive that. - -Mr. HUBERT. May I ask you to stand and raise your right hand so that -you can be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Rio S. Pierce. - -Mr. HUBERT. Age? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Forty. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your residence, please? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. 3227 South Edgefield. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Police officer, city of Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so occupied? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. About 17 1/2 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of lieutenant? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Four years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What were your specific duties and responsibilities on -November 24, 1963? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Do you have reference to normal duties, or on this -specific day? - -Mr. HUBERT. On this specific day. - -Lieutenant PIERCE. On this specific day I had instructions to secure -the basement of the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. From whom did you receive those instructions? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. From Captain Talbert. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is he one of your superior officers? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes; captain of the radio patrol, lieutenant -commander and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did he give you those orders, sir? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I would say about 9 to 9:15. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he direct you as to what you were to do in order to -secure the basement area? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; other than securing enough men from the -other stations to secure the basement properly and make arrangements -for whatever manpower was needed for the transfer. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Would you state for the record what you actually -did in connection with carrying out those orders? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, while we were responsible for the routine work -of the department, we had to determine what manpower would be pulled on -the various substations that we had, and those men were called in to -the central station to be used as they were needed. Sergeant Dean was -assigned the security of the basement, and he was assisted by Sergeant -Putnam, and as I recall, there was a total of about 19 men that were -called off their districts to help in this work. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you, yourself, do any of the inspection work, or the -searching out work? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; Sergeant Dean made the assignment of the -men, and approximately an hour later, I guess maybe 10:15, I did make -an inspection of the basement, and apparently everything had been -checked out, and it was considered secure. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did your inspection consist of at the time? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Looking over the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk around? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I walked around the basement and checked -various entrances to the city hall basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Brock? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I can't recall right now. I know the name, I am sure -that I know him by sight, but I don't connect the name with the person. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice that there had been placed a uniformed -officer, reserve or otherwise, near the service elevator in the -basement? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Are you talking about in the new building? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; the elevator that goes up into the municipal -building. - -Lieutenant PIERCE. As well as I remember, there was an officer. I -believe his name was Brock. A police officer by the name of Brock. I'm -not certain, but those elevators had been cut off for---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, the two regular elevators had, but what about the -service elevator that had two doors, one leading into the basement and -another one leading on the other side of the basement? Are you familiar -with the elevator at all? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; it has a back door to it leading out into -the alley, and that is the elevator I believe, that was brought down -and cut off and an officer stationed there to see that it didn't run. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of any planned route from the basement area -to the county jail? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. My instructions were that I would escort the armored -car, which would be a decoy, from Commerce Street ramp to Central -northbound. To Elm Street onto Houston Street, which would be the -entrance to the county jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did you receive those orders from? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. From Chief Curry and Chief Stevenson. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you get those orders? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I would assume it was about 11:15. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I immediately left. I received these instructions -in the homicide office, which is on the third floor of the city hall. -Immediately left there and rode the elevator down to the basement where -I secured a car and I found that the normal exit, which is the exit on -Commerce Street from the basement of the city hall, was blocked by an -armored car. It was necessary for me to use the Main Street exit. I -mean--actually, the Main Street entrance, because we don't exit---- - -Mr. HUBERT. But you used it as an exit? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I used it as an exit. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Sergeant Putnam was in the front seat with me and -Sergeant Maxey was in the back seat. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what happened along the route then? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, we pulled out of the basement, and I would -judge from the time, from the length of time, probably a length it -would take it to circle city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the top of the basement, were there any -guards there on the Main Street entrance? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Patrolman Vaughn was stationed at the top of the -ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. You knew him prior to that time? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened then? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, actually, nothing happened outside of the fact -that he had to move out of the way to let us out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which way did he move? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. He moved toward the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean on which side of you? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. He moved to my right. - -Mr. HUBERT. And towards the street? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. And towards the street; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What way was he facing then during the period that you were -moving by him? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. He was facing me, as well as I remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is---- - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Momentarily, anyway. - -Mr. HUBERT. In fact, he would have been looking from where he was -standing toward the Main Street entrance? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him turn his head any at all? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; I couldn't see him for just a matter of a -second there when I pulled out. That ramp is steep and a little bit -difficult to get out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he step out in the street at all? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you turn, immediately outside the Main Street -entry or exit, to your right? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I was aware that people were pressed, not a large -number of them, but I would say maybe four or five. - -Mr. HUBERT. On your right? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. No, well, probably might have been a--I don't know. -Just a guess. I don't recall the number of people now, what it would be. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether there were some people on your right? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I was aware that people were on both sides of the -car when I pulled across the sidewalk. - -Mr. HUBERT. And how far from the entrance? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, probably 6 or 7 feet. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize anybody at all? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Nobody except one by the name of Vaughn. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, subsequently, of course, it turned out that Ruby shot -Oswald. Did you know him prior to that time? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ruby? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I have known him 12 or 13 years, I guess. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you would recognize him without any difficulty whether -he had a hat on or not? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't think I would have any trouble recognizing -him if I saw him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not, see him in that crowd to your right? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I didn't see him that day at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that if he had been there he would have -recognized you? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I'm saying the possibilities are very great that -had he been there I might not have seen him. I mean, due to the time -element and more or less concerned with getting across the sidewalk and -into the street, driving the automobile at the same time. I am saying -the possibilities are very good that I might not have seen him had he -been there. I'd be very hesitant to say that I wouldn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark for identification three documents. -First, I am marking, "Dallas, Texas, March 24th, 1964, Exhibit 5077. -Deposition of Rio Pierce" and putting my name underneath that, and my -initial on the second page and in the right-hand lower corner, that -being a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief -Curry. The second document also consisting of two pages, a report of -an interview with you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on December 6, -in 1963. I am marking that, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit -5078, deposition of Rio Pierce." Signing my name on the front page -of that, and I place my initials on the lower right-hand corner of -the second page. And I am marking a third document on the right-hand -margin, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5079, deposition of Rio -Pierce." Signing my name on that front page and placing my initials -in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages. That -last document, to wit: 5079, purports to be a report of an interview -by FBI Agents Chapoton and Smith of you, Rio Pierce, on December 2, -1963. Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to look at these -documents? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are those documents correct and true? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. To the best of my knowledge, they are. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are there any omissions of a material nature? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't recall any. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anything you would like to delete as not being the truth, -or add because it has been omitted? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I don't see anything in there that I would care -to change. - -Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, this represents the truth as you know -it? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Maxey was in your car, was he not? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the rear? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you about having seen Daniels at the -exit? N. J. Daniels? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. You mean since then? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, since the day you drove out of there. In other words, -have you and Maxey ever, at all, conversed about whether he, Maxey, saw -Daniels? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. It is possible. I don't recall. People talk about a -lot of things since then. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been no interview between you and any member -of the Commission's staff before this deposition today, has there? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anything else you want to say or add or change? - -Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't know of a thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. PUTNAM - -The testimony of Sgt. James A. Putnam was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March -24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. This is the deposition of Sgt. James A. Putnam, -Dallas Police Department. Sergeant Putnam, my name is Leon Hubert, -Jr., I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the -President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order -11130, dated November 29, 1963, by President of the United States, -the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure -adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive -order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a -sworn deposition from you, Mr. Putnam. I state to you now that the -general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, -and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President -Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In -particular to you, Sergeant Putnam, the nature of this inquiry tonight -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you know, now, about the general inquiry. - -Sergeant Putnam, you have appeared by virtue of a general request -made to Chief Curry by the general counsel of the staff of the -President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted by -the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the -taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness -may waive the 3-day written notice. Now, I'll ask you if you are -willing to waive that 3-day written notice? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. What is the purpose? - -Mr. HUBERT. Simply this, that any witness--the Commission says that any -witness should have a privilege of having 3 days' written notice before -he may be called upon to testify, and that in writing. Now, you have -not had that, because of the way the request came. You see, the request -came by letter to Mr. Curry from Mr. Rankin, who is the general counsel -of the President's Commission, and---- - -Sergeant PUTNAM. May I ask why it was done by this method rather than -the normal official notice? - -Mr. HUBERT. Simply because of the number of people that were involved. -If you wish to have the normal 3-day notice---- - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, will any further--will there be necessary for -me to appear at any further date? Also, are we going to conclude it -tonight? I will waive it for tonight and request if there is a further -need for me to arrive at this time, that I receive it if--it has got my -only day off in 2 weeks. I will waive it at this time and request it if -you do need me again, but I do get the 3-day official notice. - -Mr. HUBERT. We certainly will do so. First, let me say this in regard -to the time and so forth and being your day off. The actual sequence -of witnesses and the times they appear was not arranged by us. I don't -want to place the blame on anyone but I am awfully sorry. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's all right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that if we want to call you in again, you will -surely get the notice, but I don't believe you will be. However, I -can't be absolutely certain. I will get in touch with you by phone and -be sure that we don't disturb any of your rest days, because I know how -important that is. Would you stand up and raise your right hand and -take the oath. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth -and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Please state your full name, please. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. James A. Putnam. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your age? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Thirty-seven. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. 2015 Joan Drive. - -Mr. HUBERT. Dallas? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation and how long have you held -it? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Police officer. Ten years and four months. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the rank you have now? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been sergeant? You have held that for how -long? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Eight months. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same rank and responsibilities during the -period of November 22 and 24? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who do you serve under, sir? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Lieutenant Pierce. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Lieutenant Pierce is with the patrol division? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. He is under Captain Talbert? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, Captain Talbert is your superior officer, too---- - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Also. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the line of command. Now, I have in my hand, two -documents which I am going to mark--three documents which I am going to -mark. Marking the first one as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March -24, 1964, Exhibit 5071. Deposition of J. A. Putnam," and I am signing -my name on that. The document is supposed to be a copy of a letter -dated November 26, addressed by James A. Putnam to Chief of Police J. -E. Curry, and it has two pages. I am placing my initials on the second -page. I am marking another document as follows, "Dallas, Texas, March -24th, 1964, Exhibit 5072. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my -name on that page, the exhibit being a single page exhibit. Then I am -marking a four-page exhibit being a report of an interview of you made -on December the 3, by Special Agents Carris and Peden of the FBI. I am -marking the first page in the bottom right hand, "Dallas, Texas, March -24, 1964, Exhibit 5073. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my -name on the first page below that, and putting my initials in the lower -right-hand corner of the three subsequent pages on that exhibit. Have -you had a chance to read these three documents that I have marked? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I thought there were two. I would like to see the -second one you marked. It may be another interview by the FBI. Now, is -that correct? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I wasn't aware that this was separate. I know I read -the first one. Yes; I had missed that page. That was---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What I want to ask you about all three of them, as a group, -if we can handle them that way, and if we can't---- - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I believe we can. - -Mr. HUBERT. If they represent the truth, if there are any errors in -any of those exhibits, if there are any omissions, do you wish to add -anything, delete anything or modify anything? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir; I accept them as they are. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you do this, then. Would you put your name -below my name where it appears and your initials below my initials that -appear. Now, sergeant, I have only a very few questions, I think, to -ask you about this, because as I read your statements they are rather -complete, taking the three together. They just give about everything -you know about the whole thing. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I understand from this, you were in the basement area, -from about 9:30 until shortly before 11:20? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You assisted, I think, in the searches made of the basement -area? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. You made some of these searches yourself? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, I--now, I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you know him now, of course. Did you on November 24, -prior to the time that Oswald was shot, did you know of the existence -of a person named Jack Ruby? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I had heard the name. But so far as ever meeting him -personally, I don't think that I ever had. If I did, I don't remember -it from seeing his pictures. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what I wanted to ask you, on the 24th, if you had -met him and had formed a sufficient impression upon your mind so that -you would have recognized him at all? - -Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you did see his picture and perhaps you saw him -after his arrest? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I saw his picture. I have not seen him personally. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him in the basement area? - -Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who did? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That saw him in the basement? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Prior to the shooting? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you been in any discussion with anybody as to who -might have seen him and who might not have? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. I--there have been discussions to the -effect that if he were there, surely someone would have seen him and -recognized him. I mean, just in informal discussions, how could he be -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. And yet, of course, he was there? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I understand that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you know of no evidence that would indicate that -anyone did actually see him? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard anyone say that he had seen him? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard anyone say that they knew that someone had -seen him there? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the discussions have been simply that since -he was there it is just amazing that he was not seen my anybody? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Except when I evaluate it. Having worked with those -reporters and around them I can understand how that could have -happened, because with as many a number of reporters that we dealt with -for those 2 days, it's a tough job knowing everyone personally. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you were directed to get into a car with a couple -of people and drive around to the Commerce Street side? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who gave you that direction? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant Dean. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you drove out you were driving the car, weren't -you? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's--no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you? Didn't you drive the car? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who drove it? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Lieutenant Pierce. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce leave with the -car? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I was in the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you seated in the car? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. In the front seat. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'm sorry. The front right seat? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was in the back seat? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant Maxey. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first get seated in the car? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Are you referring to time? - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's get it this way, I understand that you had to get out -of the car to move some of the people out of the way so that the car -could go up the ramp. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you were seated in the car in the basement or parking -area at first when you started off? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Actually on the ramp that comes from the parking area -to the ramp that goes between the two streets. - -Mr. HUBERT. Got in the car there? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to get out? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you have to get out? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. After he traveled about 10 to 15 feet. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why did you have to get out? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Because the reporters had formed on the north. - -Mr. HUBERT. Main Street? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. On the north. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you just use the street directions. Main Street -ramp? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Main Street ramp, but by the "ramp" I don't mean the -incline, where it flattens out. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand. On that flat part. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right. So, I had to get out of the car and move -them back to prevent hitting some of them. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that area do you think? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I would estimate 15 to 25. - -Mr. HUBERT. And they were standing shoulder to shoulder? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I didn't get--this impression. They were standing in -wait of the expected departure of Oswald, and they were just mingled, -and you know how reporters act and operate in trying to position -themselves. - -Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't enough that you were able to blow the horn, you -had to get out? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. We didn't even attempt to blow the horn to cause -confusion. First of all, this is the entrance and not the exit. They -are not expecting a vehicle coming out of there, they are not paying -attention to us. They are looking in the direction they expect Oswald -to come out from, so, I got out and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. When the path cleared up, you got back in again? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the window on the right down? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. The window was down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got to the top of the ramp, what happened? -That is when you got to the Main Street, the sidewalk area, and, of -course, the street area, would you describe in your own words just what -happened? What did you see? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I saw officer Vaughn and about six persons. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was Vaughn now when you first saw him? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. In front of our automobile about the middle of the -sidewalk. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he do? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. He stepped to the right and about to the curb, or just -off of the curb, glanced to his right and looked back and waved us on. - -Mr. HUBERT. You went into Main Street and turned left? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he go very much out into the street to assist you to -get out? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say he stepped off of the curb, though? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Possibly one step off of the curb. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then he looked to his right and his left? How did he do -that? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. How was he standing? With his back to you? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. My impression was he was facing us and my impression -was that he glanced to his right, which would be to the westbound -traffic and Lieutenant Pierce, the driver, was on the left and in a -position to see the eastbound traffic. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, turned his head so that the back of his -head would have been towards the Main Street ramp? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he stepped off of the curb just about 2 feet? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, I would say in one step, 2 feet. - -Mr. HUBERT. Didn't go into the middle of the street? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he waved you on? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. He immediately turned back and glanced like this -[indicating], and turned back, and was walking back to his position on -the sidewalk. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say from the time you all reached the Main -Street exit point to the time that Vaughn started to walk back to his -position, it took only a matter of 3 or 4 seconds? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. We didn't even stop the car. It would be very few -seconds. - -Mr. HUBERT. No stop at all? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Just a--to prevent from hitting a pedestrian walking -on the sidewalk. Now, there wasn't one walking, but to take a quick -glance like you would do approaching a sidewalk, the car was slowed, -and immediately--at this time everything happened at once. He slowed -the car, Vaughn walked and glanced and waved us on. He accelerated and -we went on to Main Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you turn your head to the right when you got to the -sidewalk? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was not a soul? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Didn't see anyone in sight in--except Officer Vaughn -and the persons that I say were on the left. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was nobody coming up Main Street -towards Harwood? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I can't say that there was not. I can say that I -didn't see them. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is all you can do, of course. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And there was no one standing there that you saw? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, now, the man that you later knew to be Jack -Ruby, you did not see either walking up, or standing by on the Pearl -Street side of Main Street exit? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you look at the people on the left side? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I only glanced. I just---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you identify anybody? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Not a person. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you specifically say that Ruby was not there? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All you can say is, I take it then, the man you have since -learned to be Ruby was--you didn't see him? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. If he was there, you didn't see him? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I didn't see him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you go as far as to say, turning again to your -right-hand side, that there was nobody on your right-hand side at all? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. I can say that there was no one in the immediate -vicinity within, I would say--well, it was apparent that--15 feet away -from me I saw a group of people standing, and to the right---- - -Mr. HUBERT. On the---- - -Sergeant PUTNAM. To the left, and to the right I saw no one in the -immediate vicinity of us. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is immediately upon coming out? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the person who has subsequently been identified -as Jack Ruby among the reporters that he pushed through? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any such person come down the ramp as you were -going up the ramp? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How far down Main Street to Pearl do you think you can see? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, it is a clear view to Pearl Street, but my -attention would not have been directed by someone half a block away. It -would have made no impression. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, your thought is that there was nobody at least as far -as a half a block away? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's my belief. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Vaughn turned immediately back and went back to his -position? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Was walking back in that direction. In other words, we -could have been close enough to touch him. - -Mr. HUBERT. As you passed, he was walking back. - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. And therefore, he was facing towards the entrance? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him call to anybody up there? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, is there anything else you would like to say? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. Well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Any other facts that aren't covered in the documents which -we have identified here as 5071, 5072 and 5073? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I do not believe you have been interviewed by any member of -the Commission's staff at all prior to this deposition? - -Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think that is all. If any fact that has not -been developed in these reports and in your testimony should come to -your attention, I hope you will free to let us know about it if you -think it is a material fact. All we are seeking is to get the facts. -That's all. And if, by chance, you have forgotten something and you -should remember it at a later date, please contact us through the -United States attorney's office and tell them that you have a fact that -you would like to report that you have overlooked and we will make -arrangements to see you again. - -But at this time, we will give you the 3 days' notice. - -I thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIE B. SLACK - -The testimony of Willie B. Slack was taken at 11 a.m., on March 31, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Patrolman Willie--is that Willie? -Not William? - -Mr. SLACK. Willie. - -Mr. HUBERT. Willie B. Slack. Mr. Slack, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a -member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the rules -provided by the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and -the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, together with the rules of -procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the -Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a -sworn deposition from you, Mr. Slack. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Slack, the nature of the -inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death -of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general -inquiry. Now, Mr. Slack, you have appeared here today by virtue of the -general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is general -counsel of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by -this Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice that your -deposition is going to be taken, but the rules also provide that you -may waive the 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so. And are you -now willing to waive that 3-day notice? - -Mr. SLACK. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, will you stand and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear then to tell the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SLACK. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please? - -Mr. SLACK. W. B. Slack. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Mr. SLACK. Thirty-nine. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? - -Mr. SLACK. 5605 Sumatra, Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation? - -Mr. SLACK. Patrolman. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a patrolman on the Dallas Police -Force? - -Mr. SLACK. Ten years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular assignment? - -Mr. SLACK. Working in the jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. What duties do you have there, in general? - -Mr. SLACK. We answer the telephone, and when the officers bring the -worksheets down, we book them on a booking form. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, book the prisoners in and out? - -Mr. SLACK. Check them out when somebody comes in and pays them out. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "Pays them out," you mean, makes bond? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; or writs. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or writs? Oh, you mean if they are released on a writ? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your office then is the control center, as -it were, for people coming in and people coming out? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You work in shifts, of course, like all the rest of the -police? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963, the day that Oswald -was shot? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty? - -Mr. SLACK. 6:30 a.m., in the morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had what is called the first platoon, I think. Eleven -o'clock, oh, no--I beg your pardon. That would be the second platoon. - -Mr. SLACK. Second platoon. - -Mr. HUBERT. Comes on at 6:30 and goes off at 2:30? - -Mr. SLACK. 2:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you were there between 11 and the time Oswald -was shot? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before that day? - -Mr. SLACK. Not to my knowledge; no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the occasion when Oswald was brought down to -be transferred to the county jail? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what you know about it in your own words. - -Mr. SLACK. Well, he got off the elevator and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before that time? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; and he was flanked on either side by detectives and -Captain Fritz was with the detectives, and they went out the swinging -doors, which is into the basement of the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that was? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was it? - -Mr. SLACK. 11:20. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that? - -Mr. SLACK. When a prisoner is released from jail we have to put the -time on a booking card, we have to put them down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does that booking card exist? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you examined it briefly? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long ago? - -Mr. SLACK. I examined it before I came to work, before I came over here. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? This morning, or yesterday, or---- - -Mr. SLACK. That was yesterday. - -Mr. HUBERT. What does it show? - -Mr. SLACK. It shows---- - -Mr. HUBERT. About the time? - -Mr. SLACK. Transferred to the county at 11:20 a.m., on the 24th of -November. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that entry in? - -Mr. SLACK. It is in mine. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you fix the time? How do you normally fix the -time? - -Mr. SLACK. Well, we put the date and the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is, do you have an electric clock? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; do it with a pencil, or fountain pen. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you rely upon your watch? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; we have a clock on the wall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it accurate? - -Mr. SLACK. That, I can't answer, because---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean, you all go by it? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Time is of importance in going in and going out of -prisoners, isn't it? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; it sure is important. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if the clock is checked at any time to see if -it is? - -Mr. SLACK. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed it to be wrong? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I sure haven't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, it certainly needs checking procedure to see if it -loses time, or gains, or stops because of the electricity being cut -off, or something of that sort. - -Mr. SLACK. Yes. Well, if the time was different from one of our watches -I imagine they would call "Time," sir. Of course, we call "Time," all -the time usually checking the news, you know, so it is checked that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, that clock is accurate; right? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. If it were in error, what would you say would be the -greatest error it could be in? - -Mr. SLACK. Well, it couldn't be over a minute or two either way, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened after that? - -Mr. SLACK. Well, he went out the door, and then my job there was -to, when the lieutenant told me that they had got in the car or -transportation which was to be used, they then would notify me, and I -was supposed to notify the dispatcher that they were---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What were you supposed to notify the dispatcher? - -Mr. SLACK. That they were on their way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you received any orders about that? - -Mr. SLACK. Well---- - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean, who told you that, to notify the dispatcher? - -Mr. SLACK. Lieutenant Wiggins. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, notifying the dispatcher, would mean that it would go -over the radio? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; they have a direct line to the county. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, the purpose of notifying the dispatcher, so far as you -know, was for them to telephone the county that the prisoner was on his -way? - -Mr. SLACK. Apparently; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told that by Wiggins or had you been told -that--merely to notify the dispatcher? - -Mr. SLACK. The---- - -Mr. HUBERT. We have to take it on the record. Just---- - -Mr. SLACK. Well, my letter there I wrote that--do you have a copy of it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SLACK. That I--well, I can say that I was told to tell the -dispatcher that he was en route to the county. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the dispatcher was? - -Mr. SLACK. Jim Farr is the dispatcher. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean on that particular day? - -Mr. SLACK. Well, he is, like I say, the dispatcher up there, but when -I called on this particular occasion, I got Miss Cason first, and then -I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was to report to Miss Cason that the man -had been shot? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; but---- - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to Miss Cason? - -Mr. SLACK. Told her that Oswald had been shot, and that we needed a -doctor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you call for an ambulance, tell her you needed an -ambulance? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your remark to Miss Cason was simply that Oswald had been -shot and to get a doctor? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; best of my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you write out the entry which you say was in -your own hand showing that the prisoner was being transferred at 11:20? -Was that done at 11:20 or later? - -Mr. SLACK. I would--I believe I wrote it out then. In other words, -what I am in the habit of doing is this. That is something that comes -naturally. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the normal procedure is that the time of -release and the time of action taken---- - -Mr. SLACK. I was standing there---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish my question; is done simultaneously with the -act itself? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that normally, when a prisoner leaves you make these -notations, and you look to see what time it is. You enter the time, and -that is how the notation is made? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, was there any deviation from that -normal procedure in the case of the transfer of Oswald? - -Mr. SLACK. The deviation, it was in this point, that we usually have -it filled out before the prisoner is brought down. In this particular -case, we didn't know when he was going to be transferred, so therefore, -we had to write down when he did come down. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you hadn't pulled his card? - -Mr. SLACK. I had his card pulled. I knew he was going to be -transferred, presumably. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't know the time; so, therefore, you hadn't -entered anything? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I had it on the clipboard on the counter where we -always keep them. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection about what you entered there -with reference to the shooting, that is to say, was the entry made -before or after the shooting? - -Mr. SLACK. It was made before the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was made in the interval when he came -out of the elevator and they walked out? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. SLACK. [Witness nods head.] - -Mr. HUBERT. She can't--you have to say something, because the reporter -can't record silence. - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I forget. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see the shooting, as I understand it? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I saw the shuffle out there. - -Mr. HUBERT. And then they brought Ruby and Oswald in? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did either Ruby or Oswald say anything that you, yourself -heard? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice the time that they brought them in? Who came -in first? - -Mr. SLACK. I don't know, sir. Like I say, the lieutenant told me to -call the doctor, and, of course, my back end was turned a few seconds. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "lieutenant," I believe you are referring to -Lieutenant Wiggins? - -Mr. SLACK. Wiggins; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you called the dispatcher and told him what you said -you told him, and what happened next, to your recollection? - -Mr. SLACK. Well, it was just about over with then except the ambulance -did come in, and, of course, that was a little confusion around there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the times of, say the movement -of Ruby up in the elevator to the jail, or the time when the ambulance -arrived and the time when it left with Oswald? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; not the exact time; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. No record was made on any of that? - -Mr. SLACK. Not that I know of. Not in our office. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is the form called that you filled in with your own -hand about the time of movement? Does that have a number? - -Mr. SLACK. We call it a booking card. - -Mr. HUBERT. Booking card? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think you testified that yesterday you looked at it -to refresh your memory and it is in your handwriting, and it states -11:20? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Apparently sometime ago, let's say on December 12, you were -interviewed by the FBI, and at that time you stated it was between -11:25 and 11:30 that Oswald was brought down. Can you assist us in -explaining this discrepancy between the two times? Do you remember that -interview? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I remember the interview; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Edmond Hardin and Paul Scott, and yourself? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall telling them it was 11:25? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now about it, or are you -relying upon what you saw on the records yesterday when you looked at -it? - -Mr. SLACK. That would be the way I would have to go on it, sir, would -be the records there. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the record which is normally made -extemporaneously with the act is really more accurate than your present -memory right now? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or would have been more accurate actually than your -statement to the FBI agent if, in fact, you did say that? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to just read these two documents. The one, -the FBI report, and the other, the letter. Have you had occasion to -read the two documents I have handed you, sir? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark them then for identification. - -Mr. SLACK. There is a little discrepancy---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I'm going to give you an opportunity to explain them. - -For the purpose of identification I am marking what purports to be -a copy of a letter addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police, -apparently signed by Willie B. Slack, dated November 27, 1963. I am -marking it "Dallas, Texas, March 31. 1963, Exhibit No. 5116, deposition -of W. B. Slack." Putting my name below it. It has only one page. For -the purpose of identification, I am marking what purports to be an FBI -interview of Willie B. Slack by Agents Hardin and Scott, which took -place on December 2, 1963. I am marking the first page of that document -with the following, "Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit No. 5117. -Deposition of W. B. Slack," and signing my name, and on the second page -thereof, on the lower right-hand corner I am placing my initial. Now, -Patrolman Slack, I show you the document marked Exhibit 5116, and ask -you if you have read it, and if it is a correct statement? - -Mr. SLACK. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a correct statement? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may show that we are both talking about -the same thing, same document, I wonder if you will just put your name -below mine. Now, we will refer to a document--in two pages--that I have -marked a moment ago for identification as "5117," and ask you if you -have read that, and if that is correct, or if you have any corrections -or observation or comments to make with reference to that document? For -the purpose of identification will you mark these two documents with -your name where my name is, and with your initials where my initials -are, and then you can make the comments if you want to correct it or -modify it and so forth. - -Mr. SLACK. You want me to mark it before I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Just sign your name on that, and on the second page write -your initials. That's right. Now, have you any comments to make, or any -corrections to make concerning that document? - -Mr. SLACK. Well, on your second page, in here, the document here stated -that Patrolman Slack cleared his office. I didn't have anything to -do with security in the office. Only part I was in charge would be -the immediate area in which I was standing, and nobody was in there, -of course, but our personnel. Of course, I believe I did make the -statement to them after they had cleared it, it wasn't no one that had -come in except authorized personnel. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are speaking of the second to last paragraph -on the second page and you want to modify that paragraph so that it -will conform with the statement you have just made, and which the -stenographer has recorded? - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I am not a supervisor or anything like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I notice also, and I believe you have already testified -about this, but I think for the purposes of clarity, we ought to note -it, and that is that upon the first page there is a statement that -about 11:25 to 11:30, Oswald was brought down. - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your previous testimony actually has clarified that, but -it was those times that you were speaking about in this deposition -earlier, that is to say, that as to this statement in "5117" the last -paragraph on the first page, wherein it says that you saw Oswald coming -down somewhere between 11:25 and 11:30, your previous statement or -testimony is more accurate, that is to say, that it was about 11:20. - -Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think that modification ought to be noted, too. - -Mr. SLACK. Yes; I do too. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it is noted, because the reporter has taken it down. -Now, have you any other statement that you would like to make that has -not been covered? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; that is about all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by me or any other member of the -Commission's staff prior to the taking of this deposition? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir; except the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. The FBI? Yes. I mean the President's Commission? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. The staff of the President's Commission? - -Mr. SLACK. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; I think that is all. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DON FRANCIS STEELE - -The testimony of Don Francis Steele was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March -25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory -staff of the General Counsel on the President's Commission. Under the -provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, -and joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure -adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order -in the joint resolution I have been authorized to take the sworn -deposition from you, Mr. Steele. I now state that the general nature -of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon -the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, -Mr. Steele, the nature of our inquiry tonight is to determine the facts -you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you -may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Steele, you have appeared here -by virtue of a request made by the general counsel on the staff of the -President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, directed to Chief J. E. -Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to -a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the -rules adopted by this Commission also provide that you may waive that -3-day notice if you are willing to do so. Now, the question is: Are you -willing to waive the notice? - -Sergeant STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do -you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but -the truth, so help you God? - -Sergeant STEELE. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name? - -Sergeant STEELE. Don Francis Steele. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Sergeant STEELE. Thirty-two. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? - -Sergeant STEELE. 1707 Kent Drive, Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your occupation? - -Sergeant STEELE. Sergeant of police, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a sergeant of police? - -Sergeant STEELE. Five years and four months--five months, excuse me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What division or department of the Dallas Police Department? - -Sergeant STEELE. I am presently in the patrol division. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on November 22, 23, and 24, 1963? - -Sergeant STEELE. November 22 I was on a day off. - -Mr. HUBERT. 23d? - -Sergeant STEELE. 23d I worked in the Oak Cliff area. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the---- - -Sergeant STEELE. And the 24th, of course, the regular assignment is in -the Oak Cliff area, and I reported to that assignment. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you moved from that assignment? - -Sergeant STEELE. I came to the city hall, came to the police station -downtown early that morning to pick up some correspondence, telegrams, -and things like that, to take to Officer Tippit's widow. - -Mr. HUBERT. And what time was that? - -Sergeant STEELE. That was approximately 9:15. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that? - -Sergeant STEELE. Well, the captain was bringing in some of the -patrolmen from in the field, from all the stations, and I asked -Lieutenant Pierce if there was anything he needed me to do before I -left, and he said, "Well--" told me I'd better stick around for a -while. He might need me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything later on? - -Sergeant STEELE. Well, I stayed there and in the patrol office for 15 -or 20 minutes, and then the captain came in---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Which captain? - -Sergeant STEELE. Captain Talbert, C. E. Talbert. He told me to come -on and go with him, and he wanted to look the situation over outside. -We walked down the stairs to the first floor where the corporation -court is located and out the door on the Commerce Street--and there -were several--they blocked those buildings directly across the street -from the police building. He told me to get a man, or get as many -people as I needed and check the buildings over there to make sure -that there weren't any doors open, or somebody wasn't concealed inside -the building. I got a patrolman, I believe it was Officer Jez. We -went over there, checked all the doors in the front. They were all -secure. We climbed up the fire escape and checked the roofs of all of -the buildings directly across from the vehicular exit on the Commerce -Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. When that was completed, what did you do? - -Sergeant STEELE. Not much of anything for a while. Stayed down there in -the basement for I guess 30 or 40 minutes and everything was kind of at -a standstill. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time was that? - -Sergeant STEELE. About the time I finished checking the buildings, -and everything, I guess it was--now, wait a minute. Excuse me. Then -I reported--after I checked those buildings, I reported to Captain -Talbert that there was a large crowd of pedestrians on the sidewalk -right outside of the vehicular route, and he--told me to get some men, -some reserve officers if I could, and move them across the street onto -the south side of Commerce Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that? - -Sergeant STEELE. Yes, I got five reserve officers and took them out -there and told them what I wanted them to do. Helped them do it. Moved -all the pedestrians across over to the south side of the street, and -I stationed two of them at the corner of Harwood and Commerce, the -northeast corner, with instructions to restrict any pedestrian traffic. -In other words, not to allow them to come back to that vehicular exit, -and I put two more down at Pearl and Commerce Street, and one at the -door to city hall with the same instructions. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the Commerce---- - -Sergeant STEELE. The municipal building. The nearest door to the -municipal building. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any on the Main Street door to the municipal -building? - -Sergeant STEELE. No, sir; I never got to the Main Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any officers to direct traffic at the -intersection of Main and Pearl, or to control traffic? - -Sergeant STEELE. Well, we started--can I go on? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; surely. - -Sergeant STEELE. Well, we'll get to that. After I got these reserve -people put out, as I say, I got down--went down in the basement and -talked to the captain for a few minutes. And I stood around and things -were kind of at a standstill there. There was lots of television and -camera people in there, and about 10:30, I guess, the captain told -Sergeant Dean, who related to myself and Sergeant Putnam that they -would bring this armored car in and the armored car was going to go -down Main Street to the county jail, and he said to get all the regular -patrol officers, all the regular officers and assign them to traffic -intersections, traffic corners. - -Mr. HUBERT. On what street? - -Sergeant STEELE. On Main Street, and I just helped Sergeant Dean make -the assignments. I don't recall whether I specifically assigned a man -to Main and Pearl, but then the captain came along a few minutes later -and said it had been changed, that we were going to run the armored -car down Elm Street, so, whatever men we may have assigned to Main -and Pearl, that is where he would have been, and he was taken off the -assignment. They never went to it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Okay. So, as far as you know there were no police officers -of any sort, reserve or regular directing traffic or controlling it in -any way on the corner of Main and Pearl? - -Sergeant STEELE. To the best of my knowledge, there was no regular -officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about a reserve officer? - -Sergeant STEELE. I couldn't say that. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the original plan to assign one to Pearl and -Main, wasn't carried out because of the change in plans, and that man, -whoever he was, went to Pearl and Elm? - -Sergeant STEELE. Yes. I think that it was--let's see. I believe it was -one of my men from Oak Cliff, but I'm not sure, but he never did get to -it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Sergeant STEELE. We didn't even leave the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when the shot was fired? - -Sergeant STEELE. I was at the county jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean in the basement? - -Sergeant STEELE. No; I had left. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you had left, so, you weren't in this building at all? - -Sergeant STEELE. I left about 15 minutes before it occurred. See, we -didn't have enough officers, enough radio patrolmen to fill all the -corners to put a man at each intersection on Elm Street, so, I went to -the county to contact the traffic people and see if I could get three -men from them, that is how many we needed. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul that lives in -Arlington? - -Sergeant STEELE. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with a place called "The Bull Pen" there? - -Sergeant STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is "The Bull Pen"? - -Sergeant STEELE. It is a barbecue place, sell beer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the manager of it? - -Sergeant STEELE. No, no; I can't recall being in that place more than -once or twice. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the name Ralph Paul doesn't mean anything to you? - -Sergeant STEELE. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ruby? - -Sergeant STEELE. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How well do you know him? - -Sergeant STEELE. Through contacts, various contacts when I was a -patrolman. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him? - -Sergeant STEELE. Well, I had actually first met him, or heard of, or -saw Jack Ruby, I guess, in 1955, about 8 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you recognize him by sight, do you think, if you saw -him? - -Sergeant STEELE. Yes; I feel like I would, although, it has been -several years since I have seen him in person. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to observe the number of people who -were standing in the Main Street ramp part of the basement just at the -entrance of the jail corridor? Do you know what I mean? In other words, -as you were standing in the basement looking toward Main Street where -the jail corridor intersects the ramp---- - -Sergeant STEELE. Right at the corner---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Right at the corner, and looking toward Main Street, did -you have occasion to observe how many people were in that area just -shortly before the shooting? - -Sergeant STEELE. Well, 15 minutes would be as close as I could go, -and at that time only probably 10 or 12, kind of milling around. -Reporters, television people walking back and forth and that sort of -thing. - -Mr. HUBERT. You left the building about 11? - -Sergeant STEELE. Approximately 11; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of car Jack Ruby drives? - -Sergeant STEELE. No. Years ago seems to me like he had a Buick, but -that was years ago when I was a patrolman and it has been over 5 years. -I think he had a Buick at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have not been interviewed by me or any member of -the Commission's staff prior to this deposition tonight, have you, sir? - -Sergeant STEELE. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you anything else you wish to add? - -Sergeant STEELE. I guess I ought to mention this officer who was with -me during all of this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was that? - -Sergeant STEELE. J. F. Harrison. - -Mr. HUBERT. By the way, I meant to ask you, you have read those -statements? - -Sergeant STEELE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'll mark the one dated November 25, 1963, addressed to -Chief of Police Curry, apparently the original was signed by you, by -placing on that document, "Dallas, Texas, March 25th, 1964. Exhibit -5098. Deposition of D. F. Steele," and mark my name below it, and I -have marked another document which purports to be an interview by FBI -Agents Robertson and Scott of you on December 3, 1963, by marking the -first page, "Dallas, Texas, March 25th, 1964, Exhibit 5097, deposition -of D. F. Steele." And I sign my name. On the second page of the -document I have placed my initials on the bottom of the right-hand -corner of the page. I would like to ask you if you have read those, and -if those statements are correct? - -Sergeant STEELE. I have read them. The only thing that I would say, in -paragraph--this would be No. 6. Let's see. One, two, three, four, five, -be paragraph No. 6. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of Exhibit 50---- - -Sergeant STEELE. 5097. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Sergeant STEELE. It mentions that I assisted Sergeant Dean in -redistributing the newsmen and TV men in the basement area, but -actually, I didn't do that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Other than that correction, are those two exhibits correct, -so far as you know? - -Sergeant STEELE. Can I clarify one? - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; certainly. - -Sergeant STEELE. On page 2, of that same---- - -Mr. HUBERT. 5097? - -Sergeant STEELE. Yes, sir; paragraph No. 7, says that I did not have -knowledge of security measures in effect in the police building. I had -knowledge that there was some type of pass required, but this was my -first contact with it, and it was being handled by the other sergeant, -so, consequently, I didn't know too much about what was required to -enter the basement, but I knew that the men on the checkpoint did know -what they were supposed to be checking for. And the next paragraph says -I had not seen Ruby in approximately 2 years. I'd say probably more -like 3 years when I was a jail sergeant. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any other corrections or additions you wish to make? - -Sergeant STEELE. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, so that the record may show that we are talking about -the same document would you put your name below mine where it appears -and your initials below mine where they appear on the second page. Your -name there. - -Sergeant STEELE. Just sign my name right here? - -Mr. HUBERT. That's right; and just put your initials on the bottom. - -Sergeant STEELE. Down here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and then the other single documents just sign your -name below mine. All right, sir. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROY EUGENE VAUGHN - -The testimony of Roy Eugene Vaughn was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April 17, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the -advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. -Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, -1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of -procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive -order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn -statement from you. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular to you, Mr. Vaughn, the nature of the inquiry today is -to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and -more particularly about the entry or possible entry of Ruby into the -basement through the Main Street ramp. Did you get a letter directed to -you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. To appear here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That letter was a written request, written by Mr. J. Lee -Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to you asking you to appear; -is that correct? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days from this -day? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and take the oath? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Roy Eugene Vaughn. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I am 29. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live? - -Mr. VAUGHN. 3231 Loganwood Drive, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Police officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Almost 6 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What rank or rating do you hold now? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Patrolman. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty at the police department on Sunday, -November 24? - -Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. What time did you report for duty? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I'd say at approximately 9 a.m. we got a call to call the -patrol office. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean your normal station was not at headquarters? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was your normal station? - -Mr. VAUGHN. At this particular month, being the month we worked days, -and I work relief--I don't work any certain district--and I work just -more or less wherever I am needed. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, they let you know at your home in some way? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I had already reported for work. I was working -with squad 105 that particular morning, which is in the downtown area. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's a patrol car? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--district 105, and approximately at 9 a.m. I got a call -to call 511, which is patrol headquarters. Officer L. C. Taylor, who -answered the phone, advised me to report to the city hall and park my -car and report to 511. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is 511? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Which would be the patrol office--that's the extension -number which is commonly referred to as such. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a partner? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you report? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I would say approximately 9:15, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. And when you got there what happened? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I walked in the--there was a little small assembly room -off of the main office, and I walked in there--there was several men, -officers in there--there was Officer Patterson, Officer Brock, and I -think R. C. Nelson, I believe, came in a little later, and they had the -coffee pot on and so we, I think most of us got a cup of coffee and was -just sitting there talking. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened then? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Then Lieutenant Pierce walked in and told me and Officer -Nelson and Officer Brock and Officer Patterson to report to Sergeant -Dean in the basement, and he told me to tell Sergeant Dean when this -was secured, when the basement was secured, to leave two men in the -basement and secure the others. - -Mr. HUBERT. To leave two men in the basement and to what? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said after this was all completed, this -transferring was completed, to leave two men--that means to leave two -men in the basement area and to secure the other two. - -Mr. HUBERT. And to secure the other two what? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Two men--you see, there were four of us that went down and -he said to leave two in the basement and to secure the other two. - -Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "secure the other two?" - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that means just turn them loose and send them back to -their regular duties. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, of the four men, you were to help in -whatever Dean was doing, and then he told you, "Tell Dean--leave two -men in the basement and turn the other two loose?" - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that's after everything was completed. That's his -message that he more or less sent by me to Sergeant Dean. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that term "secure" mean to turn the men -loose--does that mean they would go off duty or that they were to -report back somewhere else to work? - -Mr. VAUGHN. They were to report back for somewhere else. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any part in the checkout of the basement? - -Mr. VAUGHN. As far as actually checking the basement? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was assigned by Sergeant Putnam, who was with -Sergeant Dean in the basement, when we got down there--Sergeant Putnam -assigned me to the Main Street ramp and I believe he assigned also -Patrolman Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time did he assign you to the Main Street -entrance? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I would say, Mr. Hubert, somewhere around 9:30--I couldn't -be definite. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; he said not to let anybody enter the basement except -police and the press, and only the press when they had an official -press card, and if I didn't recognize any officer by sight to require -identification. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you understand by that that he meant that even if an -officer was in what purported to be a uniform, that you weren't to let -him in anyhow unless he had an identification? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said--the way I understand it, Mr. Hubert, if I -recognized them by sight and knew them to be an officer, and by my own -knowing them, then otherwise, where I think it was more applied--to -where--he said there would possibly be some Secret Service men and -possibly would be some Federal agents I didn't know, and would I -require identification from them. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you understand to mean by proper press -accreditation or identification? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, there was one case where--there are several different -types of press cards. The only one that I would accept from them which -would be, and I think in one or two cases, was the official card either -issued by the States of Texas or by the City of Dallas, which contained -the photograph of the reporter. - -Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, even though they had something that looked like -a press card, you understood that you were to turn them away? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact turn away some people? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I had one particular--yes, I turned away several people -that were not press--they would try to enter the ramp. Of course, this -is--normally a person going to the jail, which is immediately off of -the bottom of the ramp--a lot of people will try to use that ramp as an -entrance to the jail and there were a lot of people that come up there -and said that they were going to the jail and I turned them away and -told them to go some other way. - -There was one reporter that come up and I believe he was with either -Associated Press or United Press, I don't recall exactly, and he had -on a sweater--first he asked me if some man was in the basement, some -other reporter, and I told him I didn't know, and he said he wanted to -go down and see him, and I told him I couldn't permit him to without -identification, and he pulled out a pass which is--I don't know how -to express it--a large yellow pass, more or less a complimentary -press pass and I told him I couldn't accept that and he dug around in -his billfold and he finally did come up with a pass. I believe this -particular pass was issued by the State of California or the City of -Los Angeles, but it was similar to our official pass. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized that? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all prior to this occasion? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had met Mr. Ruby prior to this time, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. How many times would you say? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I would say two or three times to be at the most. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long before November 24? - -Mr. VAUGHN. When I was a rookie in 1959, I met Mr. Ruby while I was -working a district out of Oak Lawn and I was more or less being trained -at that time, riding with another senior officer and an occasion arose -where they had to contact him about a white waitress that he had -worked--had worked for him and had been intimate with some colored -musicians that he had. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you met him on that occasion? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; actually, I was just there. I hadn't--I knew the -man. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview last? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I'd say just a very few minutes--I don't recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was the second time you saw him? - -Mr. VAUGHN. The second time was, I believe it was in 1961, and either -the last of December or the middle of December. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that occasion. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had him on a traffic violation--a minor traffic -violation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him as the man you had seen before? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Not until he told me who he was and I reprimanded him and -let him go--didn't even issue him a ticket. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview if we can call it that, with -Ruby, last? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I would say at most probably 5 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was the third time you saw him, and I think the third -time would have been the last time, too? - -Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall that's about the last time I have ever seen the -fellow. - -Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said there were three times? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, either two or three--I couldn't be exact--I believe, -like I said, I probably may have seen him more, but you know, just -passing him when I was working on the district, but like I say, it -would be difficult for me to recall definitely the times--I can recall -definitely two times. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to either of his clubs or any of his -clubs? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I have been to the Vegas Club, I would say, possibly twice. - -Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel or the Sovereign? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had the Carousel. - -Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Slipper or any of his other clubs? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had them. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that you went to the Vegas, did you -see him? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--ever seeing him. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long ago were those occasions? - -Mr. VAUGHN. This would also be in 1959. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, the last time you really saw him was in December 1961? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I believe it would be in December 1961--there were other -occasions that I was in his club. I was on duty and actually just -making a routine check or answering a call there. I had actually never -been in his club except on business. - -Mr. HUBERT. On those occasions that you did go on business, do you -recall having seen him? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't, I don't recall seeing him. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you stated you were posted at the Main Street ramp, by -that I take it you mean the exit of the Main Street ramp, that is to -say, where it comes out? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; out onto the street--onto the sidewalk. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, physically where did you maintain your post? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I maintained it inside--actually, I would say 2 or 3 feet -inside--actually--of the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you weren't on the sidewalk? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no; I was inside--standing inside the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. The ramp is about how many feet wide? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate it--I would say it was 12 to -15 feet. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing more or less in the middle? - -Mr. VAUGHN. In the middle. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was about from 9:30 on? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave that post? - -Mr. VAUGHN. The only time when I ever moved out of my position there -was when this car which was driven by Lieutenant Pierce exited by that -ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before we get to that, let me ask you this--you mentioned -that on several occasions people came in, identified themselves and you -let them through, or you turned away other people? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What steps did you take to maintain the security of your -post while you were talking to such people so that other people -wouldn't sneak through? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I was still standing in the middle of the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. It would be impossible, you think, for anybody to pass on -either side of you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. That's right--without seeing them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming to the time when the automobile passed through, -tell us what you know about that? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I would say it was approximately a quarter or a -little past--about 18 minutes past 11, somewhere around there--I -wouldn't be exact on the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, they established, I think, that the shooting occurred -at 11:21 and I'm just judging by the minutes before. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you say is that you don't really have -a direct recollection of what time it was, but you reconstructed it -with the information given to you that the shooting took place at such -and such a time? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--at such and such a time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's do it this way. How long before you heard the shot -did that car driven by Rio Pierce pass by you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I would say not over 3 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you recognize anybody in the car? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when the car came up? - -Mr. VAUGHN. The first thing I noticed the car--still standing inside -the ramp--and I heard someone at the bottom of the ramp holler, "Watch -the car," and when I looked down you could just get a view of the front -end of the car coming up the ramp. It had its red lights on, which were -in the grill. As it come on up the ramp, I stepped to my right, and it -come up the ramp---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You stepped towards Pearl Street? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Pearl Street, and I stepped to my right in -order to get out of the car's way, and I stepped out on the sidewalk -somewhere between the sidewalk and the curb, I believe it was right -around the curb, and I glanced--it would be toward the eastbound -traffic, which would be traffic towards Pearl Street to see that -traffic was clear, and then motioned them on and I turned around and -walked back. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not go into the street at all? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not pass the curb? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe I did at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that when you stepped to the right and walked -on the sidewalk to the curb you looked for the traffic--to your right? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, the way I was facing it would be to my left, -which would be west. - -Mr. HUBERT. It would be towards Harwood Street? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Harwood Street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was your back then toward the ramp entrance? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; my back was not toward the ramp, I was standing to -the right of the ramp where I still had a view of the ramp itself, the -entrance to the ramp. My back would have been toward Pearl Street--it -would be towards the east. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever turn your head or your body toward your right, -that is, toward Pearl Street? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall. All I done on that, Mr. Hubert, -like I say, I walked out--I glanced west, which would be towards the -eastbound traffic going west and due to the fact that there were cars -parked along here on Main Street, I glanced to the west and seen there -was an opening in the eastbound traffic, which would be coming from the -west, and I just motioned them on. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not go out in the middle of the street to halt -traffic? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there many people standing around that entrance? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I would say at most, I believe, at most it would -be a half dozen, I think, who were standing there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing in front or to the side? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, there was one particular person that I recall that was -standing on my right, which would be toward Pearl Street--would be N. -J. Daniels. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did see him? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. He is a former policeman? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized him as such? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he was in civilian clothes? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You know that little concrete or stone projection out into -the sidewalk? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that they have two of those, one on each side of -the ramp and they extend about 5 or 6 feet into the sidewalk from the -side of the building toward the curb--is it correct to say that they -are about 12 inches high? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they are a little higher--I believe they would be -about 18 inches high. - -Mr. HUBERT. On what side of the ramp was Daniels? - -Mr. VAUGHN. He would be on the east side, toward Pearl Street there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the Pierce car passed by, what did you do? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I walked back inside the ramp to my original post, which -was 2 or 3 feet inside. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until after the shot was fired? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone go by you after you returned to your post, -following the exit of the Rio Pierce car? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe there was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you qualify that by saying, "Not that you recall"--I -had understood from your previous testimony that it would have been -impossible for anybody to do so. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, as far as--actually, when I got inside the ramp, I -don't believe there was anybody that went by between the time that I -stepped back inside and the actual time of the shooting. When I say I -recall, well, I'll put it definite--I know there wasn't--I'll put it -that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's the way I had understood your previous testimony, -because I had asked you as to whether it were possible for anyone to -have passed by you previously when you were examining the credentials -of others. - -Mr. VAUGHN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I think your answer to me was--no, it was -impossible--they would have had to go either to the left or right of -you and you were standing in the middle of a 12-foot opening? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say, then, that after you got back to your -post, following the exit of Rio Pierce's car, that nobody passed you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Nobody passed me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did Jack Ruby pass you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car was coming out, what steps or -action did you take to maintain the security of your post while that -car was passing through? - -Mr. VAUGHN. The only steps, like I said, Mr. Hubert, on that--is when -I stepped out onto the sidewalks--why--I made sure that my view of the -entrance of the city hall was not completely blocked, that I could -still see the entrance to the right. - -Mr. HUBERT. You use the words "completely blocked," do you mean to -infer by that it could have been partially blocked? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; the only thing--when I stepped out, as the car -came out, I still had a view of the actual entrance to the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that part of your view was -blocked by the automobile itself? - -Mr. VAUGHN. It possibly--for an instant while the car was coming -out--actually out of the entrance--but after it cleared the ramp--no, -sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. After it cleared the entrance you returned your view to -your post, even though you weren't at it? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And nobody entered it at that time? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; they did not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack Ruby standing by that concrete or -marble--what do you call it? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Slab there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Standing by that slab there where Daniels was? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else with Daniels? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No; not that I recall seeing that morning. Now, Daniels -worked up there around approximately 2 or 3 feet--he was there quite -some time and during the morning there were several people that would -walk by the Main Street entrance and they would look in, more or less -curiosity seekers more than anything else. There were very few that -actually stopped and there was one particular man that did stop that -I recall--I don't know his name. He was on the left of the ramp which -would be toward the Harwood Street side. He used to be a shine boy in -the basement of the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some city hall janitorial workers, -particularly a man by the name of Fuqua--did you see any people dressed -in janitorial uniforms pass by? - -Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, I seen some men walk down the street there and -look in the ramp and they walked on. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which way were they coming from? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they were coming from the east. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what direction? - -Mr. VAUGHN. From Pearl--towards Harwood. - -Mr. HUBERT. They just passed by? - -Mr. VAUGHN. They would have hesitated for just a minute. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long before the shooting they passed by? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate--just an estimate--I would -say it was probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would have been possible for anyone to -enter the basement who was approaching the Main Street ramp from Pearl -Street or the Western Union direction, while the Pierce car was exiting? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't believe it would. - -Mr. HUBERT. And why do you say that? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Because--due to the fact--the time, the period of -time--like I said, I had a view of the ramp from the period of time the -car actually come out, and I waved it on and walked back to the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know, of course, that Ruby says that's the way he -got in? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I realize that. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion about that statement? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think he got in some other way? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know definitely, but I'll say he didn't come in -at the ramp. How he got in--that, I don't know, but I know--I don't -believe that he came in the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion beyond any reasonable doubt, and I think -you are familiar with that phrase as an officer, aren't you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby did not enter the basement through the ramp while -you were there? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that opinion so strong that if you were a juror, for -example, you would convict a man or acquit him, whichever it would be, -on the basis of your statement that he did not enter at that ramp? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, what do you mean by that? - -Mr. HUBERT. That's the reasonable doubt test, you see. - -Mr. VAUGHN. You mean as far as I am concerned--as far as what I think -about it, that I definitely do not think the man come down that ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. But I was testing the strength of your view. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I don't quite understand or follow you? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, here's what I had in mind--I'll put it this way--do -you have the moral conviction that Jack Ruby did not enter the basement -through the Main Street ramp to the degree that if that were an issue -in a case on which you were a juror, you would say that it is beyond a -reasonable doubt that he did not enter that way? - -Mr. VAUGHN. So far as the knowledge I have of it--no, sir--I do not. -I think if the question is that you think I would convict him on -the doubt--of the knowledge that I have that he did not enter that -ramp--yes, sir, I would. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it is beyond a reasonable doubt, -as far as you are concerned? - -Mr. VAUGHN. As far as I am concerned--yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man who turned out to be a police -mechanic? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Tom Chabot [spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t--I don't think I can -spell it actually--anyway, Chabot. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did he enter the basement? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, this was somewhat earlier--he pulled up in a city squad -car and started into the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. How much earlier was it, and earlier than what? - -Mr. VAUGHN. It was, I would say--it was approximately--just an -estimate, it would be somewhere around 10 o'clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man Chabot went into the basement -about an hour and 20 minutes before the shooting? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Somewhere around there--like I said--it would strictly be -an estimate on the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened--he tried or he went through? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he pulled up in a city squad car and I told him I -couldn't allow him in the basement in a squad car and so, he backed the -car out and he parked it on Main Street, which would be actually east -toward Pearl Street from--it would be on my right from the entrance -or exit there--it would be on the right. He parked there and he got -out and he come back and he come back up where I was standing inside -the ramp, and he stood there a minute or two and talked to me, and, of -course, I had known Chabot ever since I had been there. He's married -to a policewoman, and he stood there a minute and he told me, he said, -"I've got to check the parking situation in the basement." - -He said on two previous dates he had had to work later until about -5:30--and so I told him to go ahead, due to the fact that I knew it was -Sunday--I seen him driving a squad car--I thought possibly maybe they -had sent for him, and there was several cars in the basement, so I told -him to go ahead, and I seen him walk down in there--I was standing, -and he was standing in my view--I could see him, and he walked down -there and I got the view when he was talking to Sergeant Dean, and in -2 or 3 minutes he had come back up. He stopped there and chatted with -me a minute and never said a thing, as far as telling him to leave the -basement, so then he got out and went and got in the squad car and left. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us what happened when you heard the shot? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, after I had stepped back in there when Lieutenant -Pierce had left--stepped back inside the ramp, it was, I would say, -not over 3 minutes I heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," and so--I -turned around and glanced--I couldn't see anything--all I could see was -an outline of a few figures at the bottom. - -Mr. HUBERT. You turned then so that your back was to Main Street and -you were looking around? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I was standing to a side view--I turned like this and -looked right just like this a little way. - -Mr. HUBERT. You looked over your shoulder? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't actually turn, and just immediately after that -I heard something that sounded like a shot, but you know, at the -point--it was something like an explosion, but it didn't sound loud -enough to actually be a shot. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, at that time there was just mass confusion. - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about a movement after you heard somebody -say, "Here he comes," and turned and looked back. - -Mr. VAUGHN. No; sir--as far as any movement on the street. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically, did you see any move forward? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you looking when you heard the shot? - -Mr. VAUGHN. When I heard the shot I was looking back outside the -entrance. - -Mr. HUBERT. Onto Main Street? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this straight then--you were standing there -facing Main Street? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In the ramp? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Or a few feet inside the ramp? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," you glanced -over your shoulder, you saw nothing that was of significance? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then turned back? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then you heard the shots? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Then I heard the shots. - -Mr. HUBERT. And when you turned to look down the basement after you -heard "Here he comes," you did not see Jack Ruby down there? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no--like I said--the only view I had was--there were -so many people in there where it was just the very people on the -edge--their backs were to me. - -Mr. HUBERT. After you heard the shot, what did you do? - -Mr. VAUGHN. There was just mass confusion broke loose in the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your post? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I stepped back inside--the people outside--there was quite -a crowd beginning to collect outside--I stayed back inside and I drawed -my pistol and stood in the edge of the doorway in case anybody tried -to come out, because actually I didn't know what had happened, and -just immediately after that I seen some of them scuffling down there -and I seen a hand--several people scuffling--and I seen part of a hand -sticking out and it looked like it had a pistol in it, but that's all -I could see was just this part of the hand, and immediately after that -there was one man that broke away from the crowd and started up the -ramp. Of course, he was in civilian clothes, I couldn't tell who he -was, and just as he started, I guess he had taken very few steps from -the crowd, there was a reserve that hit him more or less a tackle like -and almost knocked him down. Still, they were far enough from me that -I couldn't actually tell who it was. And, so, in a minute this reserve -let him pass and he come on up the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the reserve was? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't. There were so many of those reserves you -know who some of them are and some of them you don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. The reserves let him go and he came up the ramp? - -Mr. VAUGHN. It was Detective E. O. Burgess. - -Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you let him out? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, he didn't go out. He just come up and helped me at top -of the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions or orders? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No. I asked him, I said, "What happened?" And he said, -"He's been shot." - -I said, "Who shot him?" And he said--well, he understood it was a -reporter and that was all that was said then, and then immediately -after that Captain Talbert, Capt. C. E. Talbert come up the ramp and -he told me that if anybody tried to leave to get their names and what -they had seen in the basement, and he went back down the ramp and -shortly thereafter there was a sergeant, I believe, it was Sergeant -Everett--I'm not real positive about that, but he brought me a book to -write anybody's name on that did try to leave. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody try to leave? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, one man--it was quite some time after the shooting -occurred--after this, one man tried to leave and he was a reporter up -here with WFAA--Dallas Morning News by the name of Millican. I asked -him his name. He wrote his name down and I asked him what he had seen. -He said he didn't see anything, that he didn't arrive until actually -after the shooting happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did he identify himself? - -Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, with a press card, if I'm not mistaken. I'm -not real positive about that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an incident in which a TV man by the name -of Jim Turner was involved? He had got out and came back in. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, there was two men that went out during the time -before the shooting actually happened? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after the shooting. Let me see if I can refresh -your memory in this way--a WBAP-TV man went out to get some equipment, -apparently satisfied you that he could go out, and then when he tried -to come back in again, there was another man there, who you were not -allowing to pass through, and this other man asked this man Turner to -identify him to you; do you recall that incident? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I recall this--there was, like I said earlier, there was -two men that went out and got some camera equipment. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you said "earlier" you mean before the shot? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, yes, yes, sir; it was before the shot--it was shortly -after I was stationed on the ramp, I would say right around 10 o'clock. -They went out and got some camera equipment. I watched them as they -went across the street, the car was parked on Main Street, and then the -same two men--I made definitely sure of that, and when they come back -in, they were carrying equipment--one of these men that was in this--I -don't know his name--come back to the entrance of the ramp and looked -out and he had a taxicab parked on the north side of Main Street and -he waved at that cab and he told me they were waiting, actually, for -when the transfer was made and they were going to take this cab to the -county, and after the shooting, if I am not mistaken, the same man came -back--it was immediately after the shooting, and tried to get back in -the ramp--I would not let him in. I told him definitely that nobody -could get back down there and he said he had been down there, and I -said, "I'm sorry, I can't let you back in," but he had gone back in -carrying the equipment and come back and waved at this taxicab driver -after that, on the other side of the ramp, and then went back down -the ramp, and the next thing I knew he come back from the outside, -immediately after the shooting and wanted me to let him back in, and I -told him--no. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some individual who had a couple of bags -and possibly some photographic equipment--he looked something like John -Carradine, do you remember that actor, John Carradine, with a wrinkled -face? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. This fellow had sort of an overcoat on, a tan overcoat -and he tried to get out and apparently you wouldn't let him out there -because he didn't have the proper identification, and he called upon a -TV man who was coming in and whom you knew apparently, to identify him -and the TV man said, "No, I can't identify you." - -Mr. VAUGHN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that incident? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that there was one person who came a -little later after the shooting who wanted to see Ruby? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--this was after--oh, I would say it was approximately -an hour or almost an hour after the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that man was? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know his name. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he look like? - -Mr. VAUGHN. He was a great big fellow. Now, I would say he was in the -middle twenties or late twenties. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you he wanted to see Ruby? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--who he actually walked up and asked for--he -walked up and I overheard the conversation, if I recall, with one of -the reserve officers--they had sent some reserve officers up before -that time to help with the traffic and the crowd and I overheard the -conversation--he said he was an employee of Jack Ruby's. When I heard -that--we was all standing around there--I went and asked him and he -asked me if lieutenant, let me see, I don't remember the lieutenant's -name--he asked me if there was some lieutenant there and I told him -I didn't know. He said, "Well, I am an employee of Jack Ruby's," and -he said, "I would like to talk to lieutenant--" I believe he said -Cunningham--I'm not real sure; I'm not positive now. Anyway, I asked -him then what the deal was and he said, "He just needed to talk to -him," and I felt possibly--by that time I had found out actually that -Jack Ruby had shot him, and I felt possibly maybe someone wanted to -talk to him, and a reserve relieved me on the entrance of the ramp and -I went and took this man to the information desk in the basement and I -called the homicide bureau and told Detective Boyd--I don't recall if -he is the one that answered the phone, but I told whoever it was what -the circumstances was, and Detective Boyd come down to the basement and -he started searching this man and I helped him search him for any kind -of a concealed weapon he might have and I turned him over to him and I -left. I don't know the man's name, but he said he was an employee of -Jack's. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he a heavy man, you say? - -Mr. VAUGHN. He was quite a big man. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old would he be? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties. - -Mr. HUBERT. What sort of complexion did he have and how was he dressed? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I believe he had on a sportcoat and a pair of slacks. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his complexion? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he was fair. - -Mr. HUBERT. How tall was he? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, he was about 6 foot 3 or 4--he was a tall man, but I -believe he was heavier. - -Mr. HUBERT. Heavier than who? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Heavier than me. - -Mr. HUBERT. What would you say he weighed? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say he weighed around 250. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he bald or balding? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--he had quite a bit of hair. - -Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I believe--the best I remember I believe it was black. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a limp or not? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't notice. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby was supposed to have -passed by you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I went immediately, after I took this man to the basement, -I seen another officer that was right there in the basement and I -asked him--they had already told him to go back to the squad, and so -I run on up to 511, which is the patrol office, and Lieutenant Pierce -was up there and I asked him if he wanted me to go ahead and stay on -that position on the ramp out there, or what he wanted me to do and he -said to go ahead and check back in service with the dispatcher and go -back to the squad, and that was about, I would say, somewhere around -1 o'clock, and I went on back out and I answered a call, I believe I -answered a couple of calls, and I answered one out in East Dallas and -while I was out of the car, getting out of the car going up to talk to -the people, they called--I heard a call for me to call 401, at Parkland -Hospital, which is the officer's room out there at Parkland, and so I -went ahead and got the information concerned with the call and I got -back to the car and went to the phone and I called. I called Parkland -Hospital and talked to Captain Talbert, and Captain Talbert asked me if -I had seen Jack Ruby that day and I said, "No." He asked me if I knew -him and I said, "Well, I know him to the point that probably if I had -met the man on the street in a crowd I wouldn't have recognized him, -but to the point that if I had some occasion to talk to him, I believe -I would," and he asked me if I had seen him and so I told him "No," and -I began to wondering about it and I went on and checked out of service -and went to the jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Captain Talbert did not tell you that there -was some idea that Ruby had gone by you and got into the basement in -that way? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he may have possibly stated something like that--I -don't recall, actually. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said a moment ago you got to thinking and -worrying about it. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, actually when he asked me if I had seen Ruby that -morning--I don't really recall if he said whether that is the way he -is supposed to have come in or anything else. Well, I went on, like -I said, and I checked out and I went to 511 where I think I seen -Lieutenant Pierce and he told me that that's how Ruby said he had come -into the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say it was somewhere around 2 or 2:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who Ruby had told that to? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know now who he told it to? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I understood, of course--I don't know definitely--I -understood he told Mr. Sorrels and Detective McMillon and several -more--I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Pat Dean about it? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Dean asked me one time if I knew what Ruby had said, I -recall, and this was sometime later, and I said I knew what he had -said--that that's how he had gotten in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean tell you that Ruby had told him that? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did, Mr. Hubert, I can't recall exactly -what it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after the event did you have this conversation -with Dean? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, it may have been possibly the same day--later that -afternoon, or maybe the next morning, I don't recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he approach you about it or did you approach him? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I actually don't recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did any of your superior officers question you about -whether Jack could have gotten by you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, they questioned me quite extensively about it. That -was on Sunday it happened, and I worked Monday, and I think it was--I -talked to Lieutenant Pierce some, I believe, and Tuesday I was off and -so Tuesday morning around 9 o'clock they called me at home and told -me to come in and write a report and so I got up and went down there -and wrote a report Tuesday, and I was off Wednesday. So Wednesday -night I was supposed to be off Thursday at that particular time--I -had three days off that week, and I think it was a holiday fell in -there somewhere--Thanksgiving is what it was--and Wednesday night they -called me at home, Lieutenant Pierce called me. I don't recall that it -was--whether it was 7 or 8 or 9 o'clock, and told me to come in and go -to work Thursday morning, that Chief Fisher wanted to talk to me, and I -came in and went ahead and went to work and I worked until, I believe, -8:30 or 9 and I got a call to report to 511 on a mark-out. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is a mark-out? - -Mr. VAUGHN. That means you are out of service. The dispatcher will show -you being somewhere else, and so when I went up there, Chief Fisher, -Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Pierce, I believe, was all sitting -in this little assembly room and they were talking, and I didn't say -anything else--I didn't say anything to them, and so within a few -minutes Chief Fisher asked me as I recall, now maybe I'm a little bit -wrong, as far as he asked me, but somebody asked me if I was ready -to go up to his office and I said "Yes," and we went on up to Chief -Fisher's office which is up on the third floor and I was accompanied -by Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert, so Chief Fisher questioned -me about it quite extensively, and I told him the exact story that I -had in my report and I have told you, and then he asked me--he said he -didn't doubt my integrity, but would I take a lie detector test and -I told him--yes, I would take a lie detector test and I went in and -Detective Bentley, who was operating the polygraph, and so I went in -and took the test. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time that Daniels had said that he had -seen somebody go by you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--I had contacted Daniels, of course--I didn't -actually clear my conversation when I talked to him about it--I had -contacted Daniels--I remember seeing him there, after personally -knowing Daniels--I knew him by sight, and he knew me by sight, and -so---- - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you contact Daniels? - -Mr. VAUGHN. It was on Monday morning. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you did so, I suppose, because you knew of the -possibility that was being talked about that Ruby had passed by you and -you thought that he was there and he might know? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I knew he was there--I remember seeing him. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I called him at home--he has a business down in -South Dallas, but it wasn't open--that was the day of the President's -funeral, and I called him at home and I believe his wife answered the -phone, and I asked her if I could speak to him, and so he come to the -phone and I told him who I was and I said, "I remember seeing you -down there yesterday, and I just want to ask you something." I said, -"Do you recall this car--this Lieutenant Pierce's car coming out of -the basement?" And he said, "Yes, sure." And, I says, "Well, did you -see anybody go down that basement while that car was coming out?" He -said, "No, definitely not; there was nobody." And, I told him, I said, -"That's the way Ruby said he got in," and I thanked him and left. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him whether he saw anybody come by you out -to--after the Pierce car had passed through? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't recall asking him that. - -Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you in any case that he had seen somebody? - -Mr. VAUGHN. He said there definitely--he said there was definitely -nobody went down that ramp but that car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever seen anybody go through? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he deny he had ever seen anybody go through? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; he said he definitely did not see anybody go -through. - -Mr. HUBERT. And was the conversation such that when he told you that, -you understood him to mean at any time whatsoever? - -Mr. VAUGHN. The only part I was asking him about was the point when -that car come out, Mr. Hubert. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his denial then that he saw anybody come -through, you think, because of the nature of the conversation, was -limited to whether anybody came through while the Pierce car was going -through? - -Mr. VAUGHN. That was the only part that my intention was to ask him -about--was that particular one situation that arose there, because the -rest of the time I was in the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell me this, after the conversation and the examination by -Fisher and the lie detector test, and so forth, was there any kind of -disciplinary action taken against you by the police department? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No; I had my efficiency cut. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's one thing I am interested in--tell us about that. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I got cut four points. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that a drastic cut? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, for me it was. Of course, in some cases it isn't. - -I mean, it's just all according to---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see, we don't know what the efficiency cut of -four points means in terms of severity, and that's what we would like -to know. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally for the last 3 or 4 years I have always -carried a 90 efficiency, which is a fairly high efficiency, and I got -cut four points on one certain thing, which I'm not familiar enough -on how they grade on that--to actually explain it to you, but I went -up to the civil service board when I got my efficiency and checked to -see who, of course, they keep a record of anybody that changes your -efficiency. My efficiency was changed by Chief Fisher. It was cut from -a 90 to an 86 and on one particular phase of how they grade you--on -dependability. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ascertain that that efficiency cut was done because -of the Ruby incident? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I didn't think--I thought possibly it was over the -Ruby incident and I went and talked to one of my supervisors and I -didn't feel that I should have had a cut on my efficiency under the -circumstances but the point to me--there has--they have never actually -proved that Jack came in that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to this officer, your superior officer about -the fact that you didn't think you should be cut, what did he say? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said he didn't know what I was cut for. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who was that, by the way, what is his name? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I believe that was Sergeant Jennings, if I'm not mistaken. - -Mr. HUBERT. You know you talked to Fisher about it? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was going to see Chief Fisher, as a matter of fact -I got the lieutenant to talk to Chief Fisher and he told Chief Fisher -that I did want to see him, and at that time Chief Fisher was involved -in some other kind of business he had--I don't know exactly what it -was, but he was busy. Then Lieutenant Pierce told me that I shouldn't -go see Fisher at this time. He said, "If you will wait, I will talk to -Fisher." - -Mr. HUBERT. By the way, this efficiency cut, is that on the basis of a -year or a month or what? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Six months. - -Mr. HUBERT. And this was made about January 1, I guess? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I think the efficiency ends in the month of -January. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Rio Pierce ever report back to you as to whether he had -spoken to Fisher or not? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I talked to Lieutenant Pierce, I believe it was a -couple of weeks ago, and he said it was the first opportunity he had -had a chance to talk to Chief Fisher, and my understanding I got from -him was that Chief Fisher said it was for letting Tom Chabot in the -basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you got the impression from Pierce, that -the efficiency cut was not related to the Ruby incident, but rather to -the Chabot incident? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; to Chabot. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think we need a bit more information as to the severity -of this cut. Could you give us examples of what point cut they give for -what? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, you might get 1 or 2 points--I've seen them get cut -as high as 13 points. - -Mr. HUBERT. For what? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, just for different things. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what would be--what would a four cut be the result of? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally a 4 point cut wouldn't be too severe, -because actually--well, I had a 90. I got cut 4 points--I got an 86, -which is still a fairly good efficiency, but to me, like I said, under -the circumstances and the things I felt it was severe because I didn't -quite understand it--that was the point on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, were you in the police building on the 23d--the day -before? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I was there in and out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby then? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the police building on the 22d of November? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby around there then? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to go to that assembly when Oswald was -brought down to see the press? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't know what time that was, but at that -particular time we were working days and we got off at 3 o'clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. I show you three statements which have been marked for -identification as follows: a copy of a letter dated November 26, -1963, addressed to J. E. Curry in two pages and I have marked it for -identification, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5334, Deposition -of Roy Vaughn," and I have signed my name on it and since it has a -second page, I have put my initials at the right-hand bottom corner -of the second page, and the second document, which is an interview of -you by FBI Agents Lester and Larson, dated December 1, 1963, and for -purposes of identification, I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., April -17, 1964, Exhibit 5335, Deposition of Roy Vaughn." I have signed my -name on that and I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner -on the second, third, the fourth and the fifth pages of that document, -and then there is another document, a report of an investigation of -you by Agents Hughes and Dallman, dated December 19, 1963, and I have -marked that for identification on the first page as follows, "Dallas, -Tex., April 17, 1964. Exhibit 5336, Deposition of Roy Vaughn," and I -have signed my name below that and I have marked the second, third and -fourth pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. - -I think you have had an opportunity to read these three exhibits? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any corrections, changes, or modifications that -you wish to make in the document, Exhibit 5334, the letter to Chief -Curry? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any modifications that you wish to make in the -document that has been identified as Exhibit 5335, the FBI interview on -December 1, 1963? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you take the document and tell me what changes or -what errors there are or modifications you wish to make? - -Mr. VAUGHN. This part---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are pointing to the second page, the second -paragraph which is numbered with a (1)--what do you have to say about -that? - -Mr. VAUGHN. The time was probably 10:15 and they've got 10:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only thing you find in that? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What other things? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, in No. 6. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the paragraph that is numbered with (6) on page two? - -Mr. VAUGHN. It says, "Thomas Carbet, known to Vaughn to be a city -employed mechanic, was on business of the Dallas Police Department in a -squad car. In connection with Carbet, Vaughn invited him down"---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Actually, they have Carbet, is that wrong? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, it's Chabot, but I think that's what I told him, -but that's what I meant. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean Chabot, when you actually told him Carbet. The man -who is referred to in this paragraph you are talking about, Paragraph 6 -on page two, was really Chabot, is that right? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir [spelling]; C-h-a-b-o-t, and that's what I -have--what he advised me that he had been sent down for, checking the -parking situation. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don't quite get what you said is wrong with that -paragraph. - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that would be all right as far as the way it is -written--yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any comment about it? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, the comment was, as I recall, I did tell the two -FBI agents that were there that Chabot advised me that he had to check -the parking situation in the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that is omitted from that paragraph? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that is omitted from that paragraph. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to page three and it is the last long -paragraph on that page. - -Mr. VAUGHN. And it says that, "Approximately 11 a.m. a large crowd"--I -don't know how they would specify a large crowd--I said I suppose it -was probably half a dozen people standing outside the ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you wish to correct that? - -Mr. VAUGHN. I want to change the large--from large to that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You wish to change "large crowd at 11 a.m." to "about half -a dozen people"? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other corrections or modifications on that -document? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have read it through and you believe it correctly -represents the content and substance of the interview? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now; I ask you whether you have any comments or changes or -corrections with reference to the FBI report which has been identified -as Exhibit 5336? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No; that's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's correct altogether? - -Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, would you be willing to state that if a person -were to read the three reports that we have identified as Exhibits -5334, 5335, and 5336, and if he were to read your deposition here, that -he would have the truth so far as you know? - -Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I would. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any other member of -the Commission staff? - -Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. VAUGHN. All right. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE JAMES C. WATSON - -The testimony of Detective James C. Watson was taken at 10 a.m., on -March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, -Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of James C. Watson of the Dallas -Police Department. Mr. Watson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of -the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission -on the Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, -dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress 137 and -rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the -Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to -take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Watson. I state to you that the -general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate -and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President -Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. And in -particular, as to you, Mr. Watson, the nature of the inquiry today is -to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. -Watson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request -made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel -on the Staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by -the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the -taking of this deposition, and the rules also provide that a witness -may waive his 3-day written notice and I will ask you now if you are -willing to waive the notice? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please stand and raise your right hand and be -sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WATSON. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name? - -Mr. WATSON. James C. Watson. James Colvin Watson. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Mr. WATSON. 43. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir? - -Mr. WATSON. 2743 Clover Lane, Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. Clover Lane. What is your occupation and how long have you -been so occupied? - -Mr. WATSON. City detective. I have been with the police department 15 -years, going on 16 years. Been a detective about 8 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, were your particular assignment and duties on November -22, 23, and 24 the same as today? That is to say, same department? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is that? - -Mr. WATSON. Auto theft bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. Normally, of course, members of the auto theft bureau would -have nothing to do with homicide and so forth? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir; they just took men out of each bureau to help out -when they had the lunch out at The Trade Mart. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were simply assigned to assist in the transfer of -Oswald? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you were on duty that day? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have marked for purposes of identification what -appears to be a photostatic copy of a letter dated November 22, 1963, -addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, -consisting of two pages and for the purpose of identification I mark -the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, -Exhibit 5102, deposition of J. C. Watson," and I have signed my name. -That inscription is in the right-hand margin of the letter, and on each -page I have placed my initials at the bottom of the page. I think you -have read that statement? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that statement correct? Does it contain the truth? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any modifications or deletions or additions that you wish -to make concerning that letter? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir; only difference in that one that apparently either -FBI or Mr. Scott wrote, I show that I was in Jack Ruby's place, and it -says, "several" there, and I have only seen him one time prior to the -time this happened, and I only saw him after the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think it would be proper for you--when we get to -discussing the FBI documents that you repeat that comment. - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I have also marked for the purposes of identification a -letter to Chief Curry dated November 30th, 1963, by C. C. Wallace and -P. G. McCaghren concerning an interview evidently with you. For the -purposes of identification I mark that with the following inscription, -"Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5103, deposition of J. C. -Watson," and I sign my name. That consists of one page. Have you read -that, sir? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. That's correct; isn't it? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we are both -talking about the same document I would like you to sign your name -below mine on both documents and initial the second page, as I have -done. - -Mr. WATSON. Initial those pages? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; sign your name below mine. Right there. That's right. - -Mr. WATSON. And initial the second page? - -Mr. HUBERT. Initial the second page just below my initial. While we -are on that second page I notice that is a photostatic copy and--the -signature, is that yours? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, would you sign your name below mine on the -document marked Exhibit 5103? Now, I show you a document purporting -to be a report by FBI Agent Scott of an interview of you which took -place, apparently, on November 25, 1963, and for the purposes of -identification, I have marked that document in the right-hand margin -with the following inscription, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. -Exhibit 5104. Deposition of J. C. Watson. Leon D. Hubert, Jr." I wonder -if you would sign below my name so as the record may show that we are -talking about the same document? - -Mr. WATSON. This is the one? - -Mr. HUBERT. You are going to have an opportunity to make the -correction. Just for the purpose of identification put your name on it. -Now, as to this document, which has now been signed by both of us and -identified as 5104, I believe you have some comments to make? - -Mr. WATSON. I believe--I thought it was, main letter, but it was my -second letter that states that I only saw Jack Ruby one time and the -FBI letter taken from it where they show that I had saw him on several -occasions. I only saw him one time. We went in there and stayed 10 or -15 minutes. I think we had a cup of coffee and sat and talked to him a -little bit, and that is the only occasion I have seen the man before I -saw him in the basement after the shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting did that---- - -Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3 to 4 years, in my estimate. I would say 2 to 4 -years. I couldn't be sure. It has been a long time. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you did see him, did you recognize him? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I believe I would have recognized him in his place -and I did recognize him after the shooting only because I saw two or -three people call his name. Then I did recognize him. - -Mr. HUBERT. If you will step over here and have a look at this mockup -here on the basement area, generally familiarize yourself with it, -there is the jail office, and that is the jail elevator, the corridor -entrance, the swinging door, the corridor outside the swinging door. -There is the flat part of the ramp. There are the two inclines back -there. This is the parking area and that is the ramp coming from the -parking area to the ramp between Main and Commerce. I have also here -a chart which I have marked for purposes of identification, "Dallas, -Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5105, deposition of J. C. Watson." And I -have put below it my name and I will ask you to sign your name so that -the record may show that we are talking about the same document. Now, -looking at the mockup first, I would like you to show me on the mockup -where you were standing at the time of the shooting, and if you had -changed positions from the time you first went in there indicate that -so that we can mark the several positions that you might have been in. - -Mr. WATSON. I took a position--you want it here, or over here? - -Mr. HUBERT. I want you to fix it. - -Mr. WATSON. Generally right here [indicating]. And I had more or less, -until we--just previous to the time they brought Oswald down, I did -take a point near this corner, out somewhere, a point about like this -[indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking--is this right? Right here? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle. - -Mr. WATSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the spot which you have indicated on the mockup? - -Mr. WATSON. That is the general place. - -Mr. HUBERT. The general place. - -Mr. WATSON. More or less milling around from there over to here, 5 or 6 -feet until right at the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. The position I have marked with the circle is the position -you were in at the time of the shooting, is that right? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map, "Position of J. C. Watson at -time of shooting," and I have encircled it and connected it with a line -into the circle which you have indicated was the position that you -were standing in at the moment of the shooting. As I understand your -testimony, you were more or less moving up and down along that position? - -Mr. WATSON. Well, that would have been previous, until the time they -were bringing him down. Right at the moment, the only difference would -be we were probably back--I would probably have been back, I would -say, level with the curb line, but at the moment they come out the -photographers--and there were some photographers right in this corner, -and one more officer, I think, to my left, and more or less--we moved -forward just probably a couple of feet, or three. We didn't move over 2 -or 3 feet. - -Mr. HUBERT. You want to make this comment about the position I have -marked as your position at the time of the shooting, you say that it is -correct, that prior to the shooting you were perhaps 2 or 3 feet-- - -Mr. WATSON. Two feet. - -Mr. HUBERT. Two feet back in the direction of Main Street? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes; only because as the photographers come forward, we -tend to come forward and kind of---- - -Mr. HUBERT. So, I am going to mark another circle then about 2 feet. -This is not going to be accurate, but the purpose of the circle is to -show your position prior to the shooting. - -Mr. WATSON. They bring anyone down, people all naturally seem to move -forward a little, just close in a little. - -Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map and encircled the following -language. "Position of J. C. Watson prior to the shooting." I'll -connect that with a circle, does that conform with your understanding -of the situation? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what caused you to move forward in that way? - -Mr. WATSON. Just because the photographers and everyone seemed to just -move forward a little, just to keep in line. - -Mr. HUBERT. As Oswald was coming out? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that accounts for the fact that your position at the -moment of shooting was a little further towards Oswald than it would -have been had you not moved at all, and that difference is about 2 feet? - -Mr. WATSON. Well, I would say not necessarily toward him, just toward -the direction he was going. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was going; yes. All right, sir. Do you remember who was -on your left? What officer was on your left? - -Mr. WATSON. I believe Blackie Harrison was on my left, I believe. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was any officer on your right? - -Mr. WATSON. Not between me and the corner. I don't know whether there -was one past the corner of the building between there and the office or -not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there was only the two of you, you and Blackie -Harrison? - -Mr. WATSON. Well, there had been one or two others over there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right. I don't--only you and Harrison keeping back the -press from the Main Street ramp area? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Only you two? - -Mr. WATSON. Of course, the press was actually in the basement area, -and on the fence there on the guard rail and then at the time they had -already--so many of them had gotten over the rail, and were just inside -on the ramp area. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark an area just by making a rough oblong -figure in which I am writing in the middle "Area A," and I ask you if -it is that area that you are talking about that you were standing in -front of? - -Mr. WATSON. Just practically; yes. I was in front of, and to the right -of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and how many people do you suppose there were in that -area? - -Mr. WATSON. In that "Area A"? - -Mr. HUBERT. Back of you and Harrison? - -Mr. WATSON. Not many. - -Mr. HUBERT. Not any at all? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said they surged forward? - -Mr. WATSON. They are over from this corner, over to about--some point -right out here [indicating], and they come over the fence and right in -this area right here [indicating]. That---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a line with the numbers "1," to "2," -encircled, is that the line that you are talking about that depress---- - -Mr. WATSON. From that point "1" over to just past this corner was the -only area that I know of any photographers being in. That is where they -were supposed to be. They were all lined on the rail, but at the moment -this starts, they crawl through and come forward a little. That is what -makes me come forward a little. - -Mr. HUBERT. I thought you came forward because of pressure from people -behind? - -Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nobody at all in here [indicating]. - -Mr. WATSON. I think one or two, but no officers behind me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come forward? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see Ruby? - -Mr. WATSON. I saw him underneath four or five detectives immediately -at my feet in front of me after the shooting. Did not see--couldn't -have told whether it was white or colored until they had him in the -jail office. Four or five detectives completely smothering him. I was -standing there watching the crowd, looked down once or twice. Couldn't -tell who it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first become aware that there was a shooting? - -Mr. WATSON. What do you mean? What are you--How are you going to -pinpoint it---- - -Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the shot? - -Mr. WATSON. When I heard the shot; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see anybody lunge forward? - -Mr. WATSON. I glanced at Captain Fritz. I looked at Captain Fritz, just -looked at the expression on his face, and I looked at Oswald. Second -time I had seen him, just the expression. I noticed the officers behind -him back toward the jail office, just a--momentarily, and I heard the -shot up there. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your head was turned in the direction of -the jail office and Ruby apparently came up from your left? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. From the direction on your left? - -Mr. WATSON. But, your head was turned away from the area? - -Mr. WATSON. Glaring spotlight. We looked--straight ahead, to the right, -wouldn't look at the bright lights. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you don't know where he came from? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I assume where he come from but I don't know where -he come from. I know where he had to come from. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back to the statement that you made about "Area -A," there, which would be area in the basement ramp, but before the -incline begins? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes; just a flat place there. Starts back somewhere, like -you say, back here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. You're quite sure there was nobody behind you and Harrison? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I wouldn't have left anyone behind us. I mean, we -were in a position---- - -Mr. HUBERT. But I am talking about news media? - -Mr. WATSON. That is what I mean, I am facing this way and all the news -media was on my left. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had your back to the Main Street and---- - -Mr. WATSON. My back to that---- - -Mr. HUBERT. And nobody behind you at all? - -Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me except officers at the top of the ramp, -that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Blackie Harrison was to your left? How much space -between you and Harrison? - -Mr. WATSON. Well, sir; he and I were the only two in the ramp opening, -in that distance from the corner to here [indicating]. I believe we -were the only two and I believe---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Nobody behind you? - -Mr. WATSON. And I believe an officer or two in here [indicating]. I -don't remember moving around so much. I mean we didn't take stationary -positions designated. Now, we just took positions as we saw fit before -they came out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark another circle here, sir. What I am marking is -the approximate position of Harrison. - -Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3- or 4-foot over. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right there [indicating]? - -Mr. WATSON. That's right. I would say he would have been a little -closer than that. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am writing on the map, "Position of Blackie Harrison at -time of shooting," and circling that and connecting it with a small -circle showing the approximate position of Blackie Harrison. That is -your best estimate of where he was? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was also facing in the direction of the Commerce -Street--with his back toward Main Street? - -Mr. WATSON. I would think so. I mean he could have turned a little, you -know. I talked to him a couple of times. He was standing parallel just -like I am. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever glance towards Main Street during the time you -were there? - -Mr. WATSON. I glanced toward--I'm sure, a couple of times. I remember -the car going out. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who was driving the car? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I don't know that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Lieutenant Rio Pierce? - -Mr. WATSON. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was either in it or driving it, -yes. I saw him with the car. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did they have difficulty getting through the people? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes. At what point up there? - -Mr. HUBERT. At the point that you were standing? - -Mr. WATSON. I would think that there would probably have been two or -three reporters here [indicating], and I am sure there were at this -point. There was someone that was kind of in the way, and they had to -move them, I think. And possibly right on that edge, I think all of the -press were either asked or knew to get back at about that time. I think -they all got over the rail about that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been standing in this position before the -shooting? - -Mr. WATSON. We had been in there somewhere 20 or 25 minutes. I'd say it -must have been 35, 30 or 35 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you think that if a man had been coming down the -Main Street ramp just 30 seconds to a minute before the shooting you -would have heard his footsteps? - -Mr. WATSON. I don't think so. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why not? - -Mr. WATSON. Lots of noise going on there. Another thing, I am kind of -hard of hearing in my left ear. That is the reason, I think that I -can't hear some of the things that were said--I got it in the Navy. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you didn't see anybody at all? - -Mr. WATSON. No; I just remember glancing---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish my question. Anybody coming down the Main -Street ramp? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you hear them? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you like to have a seat? Do you have anything else -you would like to add? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that everything that you know about this -matter is contained in the several reports and letters that have been -identified this morning by you? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And in your deposition? - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nothing else you know about? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nothing has been omitted, and there are no corrections you -want to make? - -Mr. WATSON. Nothing but the FBI where it says "several". There is "one". - -Mr. HUBERT. We have already accepted those. That has been noted, of -course. - -Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's -staff prior to this deposition this morning? - -Mr. WATSON. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That includes me, too. - -Mr. WATSON. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you so much, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF G. E. WORLEY - -The testimony of G. E. Worley was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain to you the procedure and then I will give -you an opportunity to ask questions and so forth. I want to introduce -myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff -of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Commission was set up under the Executive Order -11130, which is an order issued by President Johnson on November 29, -1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. - -Pursuant to this resolution and Executive order, the Commission has -promulgated a set of rules, and in accordance with those rules I have -been authorized to take your sworn deposition, Mr. Worley. - -I want to explain a little bit to you about the general nature of -what we are doing here. Now, I think as you probably understand, -the Commission has been set up for the purpose of ascertaining and -evaluating and reporting back to President Johnson upon the facts and -all the facts that might relate to the assassination of President -Kennedy, and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -We are particularly interested in taking your deposition today, -Mr. Worley, because we want to talk to you about what you know in -connection with the events that may have led up to and followed the -death of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -However, that does not preclude any information that you may have -concerning any other people. I mean concerning the death of President -Kennedy. - -I want to explain this to you, also, that you have been asked to appear -here today by virtue of a general request which is made by our general -counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, and this request was made in the form of a -letter to Chief Curry. - -Now, actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are -entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition -taken. However, the rules also provide that you can waive this notice, -and I want to ask now whether you would like us to issue the notice or -whether it is acceptable to you to waive the notice? - -Mr. WORLEY. It is. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I also want to explain to you that you are entitled to -have counsel before this Commission at this deposition, and I see -that you don't appear here with counsel this evening, and I presume -it is because you don't desire one. But feel free to tell us, because -there are many people that have appeared here with counsel, and it is -perfectly acceptable to us. - -Mr. WORLEY. I don't think I need one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you if you have any particular questions -that you want to ask me? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I would have to say, after reading that report now, -that report from the FBI is not very good. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you this. Then I would like to administer the -oath to you so that I can start to take your testimony. I will first -hand you the report. I will mark it for identification and hand you the -report and ask you to make any corrections. Actually, that is going to -be about the first thing. I want to get your name and so forth. Would -you raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WORLEY. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, sir, would you state for the court reporter -what your full name is? - -Mr. WORLEY. Gano E. Worley. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Worley? - -Mr. WORLEY. February the 3d, 1926. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now? - -Mr. WORLEY. 835 N. Ewing, Apt. D. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. WORLEY. In Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. WORLEY. I work for Lone Star Gas Co. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do for them? - -Mr. WORLEY. I am building operator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you worked for Lone Star Gas Co.? - -Mr. WORLEY. Eleven years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you also have some connection with the Dallas Police -Department? - -Mr. WORLEY. Dallas Police Reserve. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the police reserve? - -Mr. WORLEY. Four years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark for identification three documents -which I have in front of me. I am going to mark for identification -Exhibit No. 5047, and I have also written on there, "Dallas, Tex., Mr. -Worley, 3-26-64." This document which I have marked purports to be a -report of an interview that you had with FBI Agents Leo L. Robertson -and Paul S. Scott on December 3, 1963. Let me ask you if you have had -an opportunity to read this over before coming in here? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections or changes -that you think ought to be made in this? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I do. If you will read this one right here [pointing]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to a letter which I also have in my -hand? - -Mr. WORLEY. Right. To Chief Curry from me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular part, if you will tell me what you have in -mind? - -Incidentally, I have marked this exhibit which you are referring to, -a letter to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, purporting to be -prepared by you. - -Actually, this is a Xerox copy of what would appear to be another copy -of an actual letter which purports to bear your signature? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Worley, 3-26-64, -Exhibit 5048." Now, is there some correction or addition or change that -you would make in what has been marked Exhibit 5047, the FBI interview? - -Mr. WORLEY. Well, right here, if you will see it says---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to read it so we will get it in the record? - -Mr. WORLEY. All right. "Worley reported to Central Police Station at -9 a.m. on November the 24th, 1963, and he was assigned by the regular -police sergeant." That is wrong. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, who assigned you? - -Mr. WORLEY. Reserve police sergeant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name? - -Mr. WORLEY. Croy. That has "Regular Police Sergeant Troy". - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to take my pen and correct it? Write in what -you think is necessary to correct it. - -Mr. WORLEY. [Makes correction.] I tell you, this is more of an accurate -description of what I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This Exhibit 5048? - -Mr. WORLEY. Right. Not this one, because---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The letter is more accurate than the FBI report? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; that tells exactly from the time I arrived at the -police station to the time I left, and every move that I made in -between. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, we are talking about Exhibit 5048, which is your -letter of November 26, 1963, to Chief Curry. Are there any corrections -or changes that you would make, or additions that you would make in -that statement, that you can think of right now? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it states that I met Jack Ruby sometime when working -with squad 105, 5 or 6 months ago. That was over a year ago instead of -5 or 6 months. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you tell us how it is that you now think it -was over a year ago? What is the basis for that change? - -Mr. WORLEY. Well, the officer that I worked with on that beat, I talked -to after that, and he hadn't worked that squad in over a year, and it -didn't seem like as long to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that officer? - -Mr. WORLEY. Regular Officer J. R. Sales. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you check? Is there any police record made of -when you work a particular beat? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you checked those records to be--to determine when it -would have been that you last worked with that officer? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I haven't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him whether he had checked the records to -determine that? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; but the reason that I imagine he stated that is -because he is working another squad now and he knew that it had been -approximately over a year. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want you to feel free to make any changes that -you want in here, but I might suggest, and please understand that I -want you to if you don't agree with it, I don't want you to do it any -other way, but it seems to me from what you have said that an accurate -statement would include something to the effect that "I am not sure now -of when it was, because I talked with the officer and he said such and -such, but I have not checked my records, and I don't know if he has." - -Now, I would suggest that you make some change like that, if you are -agreeable. - -Mr. WORLEY. Well, that is agreeable with me, because I didn't check the -records to see exactly when the last time I worked on that district. - -But I did talk to the regular officer and he said that he hadn't worked -that district in over a year, so one way or the other. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take the time on that particular exhibit and -write down something that would reflect accurately what happened, on -there. You want me to write it for you? - -Mr. WORLEY. On that last sheet, the exhibit, the next one? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On Worley Exhibit No. 5049. - -Mr. WORLEY. This one corrects that, and it says it on there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. It is right down at the bottom. Now, I don't see it -on here. - -Mr. WORLEY. [Reading.] I would have swore. I read that over a little -while ago. I guess I didn't. I'm sorry, it is not in this one. I knew I -seen it in one of them. It is in the police report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It is in the FBI report. Well, these are true and accurate -copies, are they not? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I have the letters that you gave? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I am referring to Exhibits 5048 and 5049. -Now, is Exhibit 5047 the interview report, as it is corrected with -respect to Reserve Officer Croy, is that an accurate report of the -interview which you had with those people? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; but there was some of the things that they had in here -are not what I gave them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. They aren't? All right. What do they have written down -there that you didn't tell them? - -Mr. WORLEY. Well, just like it was signed. It says Regular Police -Sergeant Troy, and it should have been Reserve Police Sergeant Croy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have made and incorporated a correction on there, -haven't you? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, insofar as that portion now reads, that is the way the -interview actually went? - -Mr. WORLEY. Well, then again it says here [pointing] "some stop right -there * * * to the information desk in the basement to send the other -Reserve officers to the basement parking area"--I don't see that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say? - -Mr. WORLEY. I said to the basement detail room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Do you want to make a correction on there? - -Mr. WORLEY. [Correcting.] I believe it is all right now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If Exhibit 5047 as you have corrected it then accurately -reflects what you told the FBI agents, would you initial and date the -corrections that you have made on there? - -Mr. WORLEY. You want me just to initial this down here? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put initials where you have made corrections and a date -afterwards. - -Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the same thing with that one up there. - -Mr. WORLEY. [Complies.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you also sign it down at the bottom and -date it with your regular signature? - -Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if these other copies that I have given you here, -Worley Exhibits Nos. 5048 and 5049, are true and accurate copies of -letters which you sent to Chief Curry, I would appreciate your also -signing and dating those. - -Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to direct your attention to Exhibit 5048, -which is a copy of a letter which you addressed to Chief Curry, and -which is dated November 26, 1963. Do you remember when it was that you -actually wrote this letter? - -Mr. WORLEY. It was that date. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. It was. Now how did you happen to write that letter? - -Mr. WORLEY. I was instructed by Reserve Coordinator Capt. J. M. -Solomon, regular police captain, to write the letter to Chief Curry. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where were you contacted? How were you contacted by -Captain Solomon? - -Mr. WORLEY. By telephone to my office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At your office? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you write that out in handwriting or did you have -it typed, or what? - -Mr. WORLEY. I wrote it out in handwriting and then had it typed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who typed it? - -Mr. WORLEY. Mr. Worley's secretary. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In your office? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The original typed copy of that--do you recall whether -that was on a letterhead stationery or anything? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; just on plain paper. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Plain letter paper? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated here in Exhibit 5048 that you were assigned -to a position on the north side of the parking area to keep any cars -away from the first two parking spaces. And you said that you stood at -that post until about 10 or 15 minutes before Lee Harvey Oswald was -shot. - -Do you recall whether when you were moved from that post an armored car -had been moved or attempted to move into the ramp? - -Mr. WORLEY. It was backed in the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall anything that happened with respect to -that armored car? - -Mr. WORLEY. They couldn't get it down in the basement. It was just -backed up to it as far up in the door as they could get it, because it -wouldn't clear the top to come down in the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. During the time that you were down in the basement at -your spot, do you recall whether any cars moved in or moved out of the -parking area in the garage in the basement? - -Mr. WORLEY. From the time that I was posted out there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. WORLEY. Until when? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Until the time that you were removed from that post, did -any traffic go in and out of there? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it was police cars coming in and out all the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand at that post, to your best estimate? - -Mr. WORLEY. Well---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it is difficult. Do you think you were there -an hour? - -Mr. WORLEY. I was there over an hour. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, in the period that you were standing at -your post, do you recall any other reserve officers being stationed -also guarding particular spots in the basement? - -Mr. WORLEY. Well, there was quite a few reserve officers down in the -basement, and they searched all the cars in that basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Worley. I am going to pull out -here a chart, and I think we can talk a little easier about this chart. -This is a map or chart which has been prepared originally by the Dallas -Police Department on a much larger scale, and we have reduced the size -of it, but it is a chart of the basement area. - -Now, so you understand what is happening here, over here is Commerce -Street, and over here is Main Street, and there is the jail office. -Harwood would be out where your hand is, and Pearl Expressway would be -over here closer to me. - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you look over there at Commerce Street. You will -see that there is a heavy black line? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that heavy black line represents the basement wall. -The basement, according to this diagram, actually extends out under the -sidewalk, so at this point approximately where the sidewalk ends there -is a dotted line. Now, that represents where the wall is if you were -standing out on the sidewalk and were looking at the building. That is -where the wall goes up on the outside, so that actually as you look at -the diagram, you ignore the dotted line when you are in the basement, -because it extends all the way. - -And on the side near Main Street, we have the same kind of dotted line, -and have the black line. It means the same thing. - -Now, will you place on the chart an "X" on the spot that you were -stationed by Sergeant Croy? - -Excuse me; I want to correct the record. You have stated in your -letter of November 26 that Captain Arnett placed you at a point in the -basement. Can you show us where Captain Arnett placed you? - -Mr. WORLEY. Right here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would you put a circle around that "X"? - -Mr. WORLEY. [Complies.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were placed there, had the search of -the basement commenced? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you were placed there, were any other reserve -officers stationed at any other spots in the basement? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain there during the search? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, and I am only asking for your recollection, -and if you don't remember, state that, do you recall seeing anybody -come over to this area marked stairs up and do anything there? - -Mr. WORLEY. There was a telephone man tried to go out that stairway, -and I happened to know the telephone man. I don't know what his name -is, but he comes to our building frequently and works, is the reason I -recognized him. And he tried to get out this door, and he was stopped -by a regular officer and asked for his credentials. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then was he allowed to go out that door? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that? - -Mr. WORLEY. About 10 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe anybody lock that door? I am asking for -your recollection? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Did you watch the search of the -basement? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch anybody search over in this area by the -elevators and the stairs? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see them do? Who did you see search over in -that area, if you recall? - -Mr. WORLEY. I don't recall any of the officers names. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his rank? - -Mr. WORLEY. I am not sure, but I think it was a sergeant, regular -officer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a regular sergeant? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him, if you recall? - -Mr. WORLEY. I don't believe so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, could you tell us what he did over in that area? - -Mr. WORLEY. Well, these elevator doors were closed. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. WORLEY. And he checked the door to see if it was locked, and it -was. He couldn't even go out. He couldn't open the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have anybody with him at the time that he checked -that door? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a clear recollection of this? - -Mr. WORLEY. That is hard to say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know sometimes we have a visual image, and sometimes -there is something that happened or for some reason that you know you -watched this. Is there anything---- - -Mr. WORLEY. Well, there was people that they brought in a bunch of -reserve officers in the basement from the detail room, and they came -out in here and they started back in here. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You are now sort of indicating back in the area toward -Main Street underneath the sidewalk? - -Mr. WORLEY. And he searched all these cars back in here to see that, I -guess, that there was nobody in there. They didn't tell me, but they -were searching back in here, and he just covered this back all the way -to the ramp here. Then they went right on around and covered the whole -parking area down in the basement back to me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, those people were sort of moving in a -group? - -Mr. WORLEY. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when this regular sergeant got over to the doorway, -was that group with him? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was he alone? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. I am almost positive that he was over here while they -were searching back over here, and he was by himself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, do you recall this particular officer going to -the service elevator? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if at any time there was somebody in that -service elevator? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any building personnel down in the -basement? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I do. Porters. And I don't recall how many. I saw some -porters and maids, and I am pretty sure that they were on this elevator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Service elevator? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it was standing there with the door open, and somebody -told them to go on up in the building, and close that elevator off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when that was in relationship to the -search of the basement? - -Mr. WORLEY. It was before they searched the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was that did that? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you be able to state whether it was that -officer who talked to those maids and porters? Was it the same officer, -the same sergeant who also checked this door? - -Mr. WORLEY. There was none. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you would recognize either one of those officers -if you saw them again? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you, in your mind, convinced -about one sergeant than the other officer who checked the service -elevator? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So, are you able to explain for the record--I am -not trying to trip you up or anything--I am trying to probe your -recollection here--are you able to explain to us how it is that you -recall that they were different officers? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I am not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Different heights? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; there is nothing that would be--maybe I am thinking -that they were even the same person, or different people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And in other words, your answer is that you just don't -know if they were the same? - -Mr. WORLEY. I don't know. It could have been the same person or could -have been two different people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. Do you recall ever seeing anybody go over -into this area that is marked, where it says "To engineroom", and check -anything over in that area? - -Mr. WORLEY. I saw them search over that way but from where I was, I -couldn't tell whether they were back in here or not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After the search was over, do you recall if any other -officers were stationed down in the basement? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. There were some more reserve officers down in the -basement stationed there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark where the reserves were? Why don't you put -a "R" and a circle around it where there was a reserve. - -Mr. WORLEY. This is Lt. Ben McCoy, reserve officer. I stationed him -there myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station him? Why don't you write "McCoy" -under his name then? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. Captain Arnett was over here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "A" in front of the circle. All right, now, any -other reserve officers that you recall? - -Mr. WORLEY. There was a reserve officer down here, and I don't know his -name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "R" there and question mark under it. Were there -any regular officers stationed any place in the basement? - -Mr. WORLEY. There was a regular sergeant right here for quite awhile. I -couldn't say approximately how long. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he there a half hour before Oswald was shot? - -Mr. WORLEY. Oh, yes; I would say it was about maybe an hour or before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't mean for what length of time, but when did he -leave that spot? - -Mr. WORLEY. About an hour. I would say an hour before Oswald was shot. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any officers being stationed by the -elevators? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; there was a regular officer there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a circle there and write "regular" under -it where that man was? Now, do you recall any other regular officer? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left, that was sometime after the -armored car arrived? - -Mr. WORLEY. Right. The armored car was backed into this ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Commerce Street ramp. Do you recall whether or not any of -these men had been moved? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of seeing any of these -particular men in the basement at the time Lieutenant McCoy reassigned -you? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. Captain Arnett and Lieutenant McCoy and this officer -were in the basement when I left. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this officer up here? - -Mr. WORLEY. I couldn't say. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You went to the corner of Commerce and Central Expressway? - -Mr. WORLEY. The next block down. This is Central Expressway, and the -next block is north, northbound. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you walk out? - -Mr. WORLEY. Went up the south ramp by the armored car, sitting right -here. And I went on this side of it, which would be--I am trying to -place that. That would be east side of the armored car. Walked down the -sidewalk two blocks to the corner of Commerce and Central Expressway, -northbound. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize Jack Ruby if you saw him? - -Mr. WORLEY. Now? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize him then? - -Mr. WORLEY. Right now? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at the time you walked down that street, would you -have recognized him if you had seen him? - -Mr. WORLEY. I don't believe I would. The only time that I had ever -seen the man was when I was working with squad 105, and we made the -place that he owned down there. We just made a frequent call, or just -stopped in there to see if there was any trouble or anything, and then -went on. - -I met him one night, and I had seen him when I was in there. But those -places are kind of dimly lit and you don't see too much in them, and -really and truly, I didn't pay too much attention to meeting him anyway. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if any time after the armored car -arrived any automobile came in or out of the basement area after the -armored car arrived? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't believe so. I don't believe a car came down the -ramp after that armored car was backed in there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any cars drive out of the basement after the -armored car came down? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see any television cameras in any area of the -basement after the armored car arrived? - -Mr. WORLEY. There were television cameras in the basement before that -armored car arrived. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. As you walked up the Commerce Street ramp, -where did you see television cameras? - -Mr. WORLEY. When I was assigned to the basement, in these first two -stalls right here, they were putting these cameras up right behind. -There is a rail that runs right along there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark the spot where the TV cameras were? Why -don't you put a box? - -Mr. WORLEY. Two cameras. Two or three. There was so much confusion down -there that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you walked out to go up the Commerce Street ramp, do -you recall what television cameras you saw? - -Mr. WORLEY. Down in the basement? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. WORLEY. These two cameras that were here, that had been there all -the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any other TV cameras as you walked -out? Did you see any up here by the armored car? - -Mr. WORLEY. I don't recall of seeing any. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, did you see any down on the ramp or in the -garage area, or up on this ramp? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicate in here that, in your letter or statement -of November 30, that you saw from your position a man jump over the -railing, saw a man come down the north ramp, which would be the Main -Street ramp, and jump over the railing in the parking area, is that -right? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before you left the basement, would you -say? - -Mr. WORLEY. Hour or hour and a half. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any thought that that man was Jack Ruby? - -Mr. WORLEY. It wasn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time--I notice this is the second report, -letter--that was you got this letter of November 30? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I was interviewed by these two special service -officers, and they took this statement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to describe that man? How did that come -about? Did they ask you if you saw anybody jump over a railing, or -anything like that? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; they did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to the time that you prepared this letter of -November 30, had you talked with anybody about having seen this man -jump over the railing? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to think carefully. After the time, did you -hear anybody else say--prior to the time you drafted the letter, that -he saw a man jump over the railing? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any indication from Lieutenants Cornwall and -Revill as to how they came to inquire about that particular man? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or about a man jumping over the railing? - -Mr. WORLEY. All they did is ask me if I saw anybody come down that ramp -in particular. And I stated that I had seen that man come down and -jump over that rail there in the basement, and he was challenged by an -officer and he identified himself and the officer let him go on. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me understand this then, I think your answer to -me initially was that these two lieutenants asked you specifically if -you saw a man jump over the railing? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; asked me if I saw anybody come down the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. WORLEY. And then I told them about the incident of the man jumping -over the rail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you interviewed in a room with other officers when -Lieutenants Cornwall and Revill conducted this interview? Had a number -of reserve officers been assembled together and they talked with them? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I was told to report to that special service office at -a certain time, and there was one other officer in the room when I came -in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer? - -Mr. WORLEY. Lt. Ben McCoy. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he interviewed before you or after you? - -Mr. WORLEY. He was just fixing to leave. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him? - -Mr. WORLEY. Spoke to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you mention anything about this man to him? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About the man coming down the ramp? - -Mr. WORLEY. No. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you finished with the interview, do you remember who -the next man was behind you? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time in the morning, day or night, your -interview was with Revill? - -Mr. WORLEY. It was, oh, I believe, November 30 was on a Saturday that I -came up there. It was a Saturday, because I was off. I was at home, and -I came up there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the morning or afternoon? - -Mr. WORLEY. It was in the morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether they had interviewed reserve -officers, had set up appointments for reserve officers prior to -Saturday? - -Mr. WORLEY. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of each reserve officer over here? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I sure don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen that reserve officer since the time Oswald -was shot by Ruby? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I wouldn't recognize him if I saw him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't recognize him again when you saw him? I am -talking about the reserve officer about whom you have placed a question -mark on the chart. Do you have anything further that you want to tell -the Commission that you think might be of any use to them? - -Mr. WORLEY. I don't know of anything else that I could add to it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you this: Have you been interviewed by any -member of the Commission staff prior to this deposition? - -Mr. WORLEY. No; I haven't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will make this one last general request. If anything -comes to your attention which you believe could be of assistance to the -Commission would you come forward with it, regardless of what your -personal feelings may be and so forth? - -Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I would. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I will appreciate that. - -Mr. WORLEY. I sure would. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. - -Mr. WORLEY. Glad I met you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Nice to have met you. [Add this to Worley]: - -After Mr. Worley left, I realized that I neglected to get him to sign -the chart that we had been using to explain the various positions -in the basement, and the court reporter says that was because I was -hurried. And I notice in looking at this I also neglected even when I -corrected this afterward to write after Mr. Worley the date, so I will -write that in now. 3-26-64. And I wrote that in a space between the -word Mr. Worley and an exhibit number which I had already put on there, -Exhibit 5050. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF LT. WOODROW WIGGINS - -The testimony of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins was taken at 11 p.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins of the -Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Wiggins, my name is Leon Hubert, -Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on -the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the President's -Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of -Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission -in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution of -Congress, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from -you, Lieutenant Wiggins. I state to you now that the general nature -of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report -upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and -the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, in particular -to you, Lieutenant Wiggins, the nature of the inquiry tonight, is to -determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and the other -pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. You have -appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry -by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, to -wit, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who wrote him a letter asking you all be made -available. The rules of the Commission provide that you be entitled, -if you wish, to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this -deposition, but the rules also provide that if a witness cares to do -so, he may waive the 3-day written notice and, so, I now ask you if -you are willing to waive this 3-day written notice which otherwise you -would be entitled to? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I am willing to waive it. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Woodrow Wiggins. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Forty-six. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. 319 West Corning Street, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm a lieutenant on the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Eighteen years. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been an--a lieutenant? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Since October 1, 1956. - -Mr. HUBERT. What particular department do you serve with, sir? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I am with what is known as the service division. I -have under my control the dispatcher's office, the jail and the service -division and all the substations. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Lumpkin. - -Mr. HUBERT. Lumpkin, and over him would be---- - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Batchelor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course, Chief Curry? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, the line of command between you and Chief Curry is -Batchelor, Lumpkin, then Wiggins? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. What are your particular duties? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That depends, of course. Could I quote here and say -that on certain times I have different duties? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That I have a jail lieutenant that works for me, on -his days off, I watch the jail, or pass on prisoners and supervise the -jail as well as the other things, and when the jail lieutenant is there -then I am at liberty to inspect substations and do--the dispatcher's -offices and the jail, wherever I may be needed. - -Mr. HUBERT. On November 24, what was your situation? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was working the jail. My jail lieutenant was off -that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, working the jail entails what responsibilities and -duties? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm in charge of everything that goes on in the -jail, and among other duties, I pass on all prisoners that are put into -jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say "pass," on them, what do you mean? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I check to see their--the arrest is legal, and -that I think the charge is proper and that this person belongs in jail -before he is placed in jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you any duties or responsibilities with respect -to the transfer of prisoners, in your capacity as jail lieutenant? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Nothing more than as is normal to turn them over to -either the constable or deputy sheriff who transfers them to the county -jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. With reference to prisoners who are transferred from the -city jail to the county jail, is it customary for your department to -transfer them to the county jail, or is it customary for the State -deputies to come and get the prisoner? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. It is customary for the deputy sheriff or constable -to come and get a prisoner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why an exception was made in the case of Oswald? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was never told. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, normally, it would have been Sheriff -Decker's duty to come and get Oswald, is that correct? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Normally, it would have been that way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know, or did you ever hear it discussed, the reason -why the normal procedure was not followed? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I haven't. When I make that statement--I have -surmised that it was for better protection due to the fact that we have -more men, possibly, than Sheriff Decker did. That is strictly a surmise -of mine, of my own. - -Mr. HUBERT. What security had you provided for Oswald within the jail -itself? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, as a rule, we used a trustee to run our jail -elevator. I relieved the trustee from the jail elevator and placed a -patrolman on it. And put two officers in front of Oswald's cell at all -times. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 24th, or at all times since he was arrested? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, that was--the 24th, was my first day back -since that time. I had been off 2 days prior to that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And when you came on duty on the 24th, did you find that -security which you have described, already in existence? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I found that they had one officer in front of -the cell, but that they didn't--they still had a trustee running the -elevator. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you changed that. You took the trustee off and put an -extra man on the cell? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that Oswald was moved in the course of the 24th a -couple of times for interviews and so forth? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I know that I received a call from the fifth floor -that some detectives from the homicide bureau were up there to take -him out on what they call a "tempo," and this is to take him out for -interrogation. - -Mr. HUBERT. When he was taken out that way, was he accompanied by the -guard that you assigned? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; the guard could not take him to the -interrogation room. - -Mr. HUBERT. And "tempo," is a receipt for a prisoner which relieves -you, temporarily, of the duties you have with respect to him? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. - -Mr. HUBERT. And when he is brought back, your duties and -responsibilities for his custody attach to you again? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the search of the -basement for security? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I was in and out of the basement looking -it over, but I had no duties with the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you remain in the jail office performing -your functions as to incoming prisoners? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any of the plans for removal of Oswald, or -the transfer? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I knew of no plans. I had been informed by the -platoon that--I believe that it was understood that he would be -transferred after 10 o'clock in the morning. Now, that was---- - -Mr. HUBERT. No one gave you any orders or assigned any duties to you in -connection with the transfer? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did any sheriff come with a warrant for his release? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, under normal circumstances would you allow a prisoner -to be removed by the city police? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. He would be out of your custody on "tempo," is that right? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not necessarily. Let me say this: that the--that -the city police transfer prisoners on occasion over to the county jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. But, this is rare. It is--there are instances I can -name. For instance, they have filed on a prisoner and just for courtesy -to the prisoner, more or less, he wants to get to the county and they -just transfer him on down to the county themselves. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you relieve yourselves of responsibility in those -circumstances? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Each prisoner who is transferred, the card is -signed, or the name of the officer that is making the transfer is -placed on his card. His property is turned over to the officer making -the transfer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was this done in this way? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; in this case, they were going to take the -property later. - -Mr. HUBERT. Naturally, he was in the custody of Captain Fritz at the -time of the transfer, isn't that right? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. He had been released from your custody by a "tempo" card to -Fritz? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Fritz could do what he wanted with him? Until he -relieved himself of the obligation of the "tempo" card by putting him -back in your custody? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. - -Mr. HUBERT. When were you first aware that Oswald was going to be moved -in the immediate future? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. When was I aware that he was en route, or---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Or, being moved to the county? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'd say possibly a minute before the shooting -occurred, they called me--someone called me from the--Captain Fritz' -office, the homicide bureau, and told me they were en route down the -elevator with Oswald, and I know that when I hung the phone up I looked -in and could tell by the elevator lights it was on the way down. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, in your statement you fix that moment at 11:20. How do -you fix that? Do you remember now how you fixed that? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I remember looking at our clock as they came by. I -don't know why, but I looked, just to be sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the big electric clock, that is on the wall there? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Big electric clock on the wall there. - -Mr. HUBERT. The wall that is adjacent to the ramp? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, I don't know what you mean, "adjacent to it," -it is directly--on the wall directly in front of the hallway. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you come into the jail office, from the corridor, -that clock is on the wall to your right? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you all check it frequently? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; but maybe just occasionally might call the bank -to get the time, but---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you estimate just how accurate that clock is, -normally, and was on the day in question, the 24th? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I would say that it was possibly, I'm sure, not -over 2 to 3 minutes off either way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there could be a 6 minutes difference? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I certainly don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I mean. In other words, you say it could -be 3 minutes off either way, then there could be a difference--no, I -see what you mean. Could be a difference of only 3 minutes. Have you -ever known it to be that much off? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge. I don't recall the time that -I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, being an electric clock the only thing -that will stop it from working is if the current went off, is that -right? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. And, now, I don't recall on any -particular details of ever having set that clock for--or anyone having -set it. I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you rely on that clock for timing other events in your -business of running the jail office? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Repeat that question. I am not sure I understand -what you mean. - -Mr. HUBERT. I take it that the time of various events, like the time of -a prisoner's release on bond, or the time that he is actually brought -in is a matter of record in some instances, with the police? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the time and the entry of that time on the -record is a part of your function? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you rely on that clock? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Most of the time. Sometimes I look at my watch, but -most of the time I look at the clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, 11:20, you have as the time you first noticed the -elevator coming down, and in a few seconds after that I guess they -passed by? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; the time at 11:20 that I am speaking of, I -remember I looked at the clock as they were coming out of the elevator. - -Mr. HUBERT. It was 11:20 just then? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of course, that is only a matter of seconds. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, they passed by you? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. As they came down, and as they came off the -elevator Captain Fritz was the first man off, and he said, "Are they -ready?" And I know that then I stepped out of the door, and I don't -recall whether I ever answered him or not, but I stepped out into the -corridor first. If I would have answered him I am sure I have--would -have told him that it was ready, but I don't recall whether I did or -didn't because I presumed they were ready, as everyone else did, and I -know I stepped out into the corridor, to the left as you went out the -door. I stepped to the left possibly 3 or 4 feet from the door, and -they passed me then. - -Mr. HUBERT. On your right? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; they passed me with Oswald at that time, -and had proceeded past me approximately 6 or 7 feet when the incident -happened. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shooting at all? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I heard the shot, and did see the gun, but at--but -not at the time of the shooting. I saw the gun after the officers had -grabbed it and had swarmed Jack Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Describe Jack Ruby coming out of the group. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I saw a man coming out. I had no idea who it was, -but, I mean, it happened so quickly I caught it in the corner of my -eye, and I saw him out of the corner, saw him coming out of the crowd, -but I didn't know at that time who it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just about what position in the crowd did he come from? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. If you were familiar with that location I could -tell you exactly. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we have here a mockup of the area, and also -a corresponding chart that you can use, and for purposes now of -identifying it, I am going to mark this document as follows, "Dallas, -Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5076, deposition of Woodrow Wiggins." -And I am signing my name to it, and I ask you, for the purpose of -identification to sign beneath my name. Now, first of all, you--using -the mockup to get your own position, and then secondly, I ask you to -mark on this chart that we have identified your position by placing a -circle actually at the place where you were. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Where my position was? - -Mr. HUBERT. At the time the shot was fired. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right, sir. I had come out of this door and I -had stepped to along here, just about there [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle there. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Okay. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am writing--you have marked a little mark there -and I have put a circle around it and I am marking here, "Position of -Wiggins at the time of the shot." And circling that, is that correct? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That is prexactly (sic) correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now on that same map would you put a mark which I am also -going to circle later and identify as to the spot as best you can -recollect it where you first saw Ruby coming out. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. The spot where he was? - -Mr. HUBERT. Where he was. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. When I saw him? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; the spot where he was when you saw him. Now, look at -the mockup first and get your distances. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I have an idea or just about---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you just mark it there, the spot there were you first -saw Ruby? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Approximately. I could miss this a foot or 2, you -understand that? - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. Now, your cameras were over here -behind the--behind this with the lights, and where I saw him, he was -approximately, I'd say, about there [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking this--Lieutenant Wiggins has marked a -spot in the basement area. I am putting a circle around that spot, and -connecting it with a line, I am writing "Position of Ruby when seen by -Wiggins." Is that correct, sir? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. Now, this spot that I would be--that I would -say to be to where I first noticed that--the movement that attracted my -attention right there. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. And by the time that I had time to think and look, -it was over, but that is approximately the place. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. You had known Jack Ruby before this, I -understand? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I have known Jack Ruby for years. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize him? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. The first time that I recognized him, who it was -was after they brought him into the jail office. He was on the floor -still covered, or surrounded by the officers is when they picked him up -off the floor and stood him on his feet in the jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't recall him saying anything there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him afterwards? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I talked to you the--I talked to him -the next morning. I went up to see if he was all right. This was -approximately 6:45, the following morning, I went to see that he was -all right. I asked him how he was feeling, and he said, "As well as -could be expected." And I asked him if he was being treated all right. -And he said, "Yes; they are treating me fine." And I don't recall -saying anything else to him at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you--have you spoken to him since? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who called a doctor? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; when the shot was fired, as soon as I saw -that I could be of no help out there, they had Ruby. They had the man, -and they were surrounding--I immediately whirled, came in the office, -and when I found one of my officers there, Slack, I told him to call -the doctor, that Oswald had been shot. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you then notice what time it was? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I didn't. I don't recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Slack was where? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. He was standing right by the desk inside the jail -office. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, he put the call in? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; he called himself, then let me say this, -that after they brought Ruby in, then I turned and came back out the -door and after they had brought Ruby and Oswald, after they had gotten -him in I checked by telephone myself. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who did you speak to then? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I called one of them in the dispatcher's office, -but I don't remember who I checked with. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a document purporting to be a letter -dated November 27, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, -apparently signed by you, by marking on the right-hand margin these -words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, and Exhibit 5074. Deposition -of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name on the first page, and placing -my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. I am -marking a four-page document purporting to be a report of an interview -with you by special agents of the FBI, Chapoton and Smith, dated -December 2, 1963, by writing in the right margin on the first page of -that document the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit -5075, deposition of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name and I am placing -my initials on a second, third and fourth page of that document by -putting those initials in the lower right-hand corner. I ask you -to look at these two exhibits and tell me whether you have had an -opportunity to read them? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent what you know to be the truth? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; there is an error on the third page. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of which one? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of the document taken by the Federal Bureau of -Investigation. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state what you consider to be the error and give -us what you consider to be the truth? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. It starts on the eighth line, on the top of the -third page where it starts--the sentence starts, "They had proceeded -some 6 or 7 feet--" Excuse me. It is the one in front of that. The -latter part of the last sentence of the eighth line. Sentence reads, -"In their midst, were out past him. Wiggins," and it should read, "In -their midst, went out past him. Wiggins." And the next sentence---- - -Mr. HUBERT. I'm not sure I got that distinction. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. See this? See this then should be, "Went -out past him." Not, "were out past him." - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in the eighth line, the fourth word from -the end of the eighth line should be the word "went" instead of the -word "were," is that correct? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. Also, the next sentence, as it is -written here, "They proceeded some 6 or 7 feet from the jail office -door when he, Wiggins, saw a man lunge towards Oswald and he heard the -report of the gun." That sentence should read, "They had proceeded some -6 or 7 feet past Wiggins when Wiggins saw a man lunge towards Oswald -and he heard the report of a gun." - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as the exhibit itself now reads, or as the -sentence now reads it gives the impression that they had proceeded 6 or -7 feet from the jail door. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Whereas, your recollection is that it was 6 or 7 feet from -where you were standing, and were you--you were standing about 3 or 4 -feet from the jail door, so that to catch the sense properly it would -be that they had proceeded about 10 to 11 feet past the jail door. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. True. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, are there any other corrections or -modifications? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; rest of it is---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Are there errors in either of those two exhibits? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. The rest of it is as I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions that you would like to correct, or---- - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; nothing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anything to be deleted? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Wiggins, have you been interviewed by any member -of the Commission staff, other than myself? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, with respect to myself, we had an interview last -night, did we not? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, are there any inconsistencies that you are aware of -between the matters discussed in our interview last night and your -deposition taken tonight? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, we didn't discuss this last night. You and I -didn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss it with Mr.---- - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. We--I didn't discuss any of this. The only thing -that I discussed with any one last night was with you, and that was -that the time and so forth that I would be here tonight. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. When did you get to read your statement? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. Last night. You gave your report to me last night. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, we had no other discussion? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; not on this. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, in fact, there was really no interview with--even with -me? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. When you speak of interview, I meant conversation. -I did have conversation with you last night, but not anything -pertaining to this. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nothing inconsistent that happened between the interview of -last night and what you said today? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Nor, I take it, is there anything of a material nature that -transpired in the interview of last night which has not been developed -tonight? - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't believe I quite understand what you mean. - -Mr. HUBERT. In view of the fact that you have already stated we had not -discussed it, I think it answers itself, but the point I am wanting -to make is there was nothing that was talked about last night that we -didn't talk about today, obviously that is so, because it wasn't talked -about last night. - -Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DON RAY ARCHER - -The testimony of Don Ray Archer was taken at 8:20 p.m., on March 25, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Don Ray Archer, isn't that -correct? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Archer, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member -of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's -Commission under provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November -29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules -of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with -the Executive order and the joint resolution. I have been authorized -to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. I state to you now -that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, -evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of -President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In -particular as to you, Mr. Archer, the nature of the inquiry today is to -determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other -pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. - -Now, Mr. Archer, you appear today by virtue of a general request made -by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's -Commission to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, -you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this -deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that -a witness may waive this 3-day written notice if he so wishes. Now, do -you desire to waive that notice? - -Mr. ARCHER. I will waive. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you stand and raise your right hand. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. ARCHER. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name? - -Mr. ARCHER. Don Ray Archer. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your last name is Archer? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age, sir? - -Mr. ARCHER. I am 31. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? - -Mr. ARCHER. 2035 San Francisco, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Mr. ARCHER. I am police officer for the city of Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force of the city of -Dallas? - -Mr. ARCHER. Ten years, May 31. - -Mr. HUBERT. What particular duty or function do you have with the -police department? - -Mr. ARCHER. I am a detective assigned to auto theft bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? - -Mr. ARCHER. My immediate superior would be Lieutenant Smart, and then -Capt. J. C. Nichols, who is the head of our bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same position and rank and duties and -occupation during the period of November 22 to 24, 1963? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, where were you stationed when you first came on duty -on November 24, 1963? - -Mr. ARCHER. On November 24, I reported for duty at 7 a.m., at the auto -theft bureau, which is my normal procedure when I report for work. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then did you go about performing your regular duties in the -auto theft bureau, or were you assigned extra and other duties? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, at the beginning of the morning I was performing my -regular duties and carrying out my assignments and making my general -investigations. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is in connection with routine auto thefts? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you taken from that routine of duties? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. By whom, and at what time? - -Mr. ARCHER. As I recall, and as near as I can recall, and this is only -approximate, about 8:40 a.m., Lieutenant Smart came into our bureau -and advised us that Chief Stevenson had asked us to stand by to remain -in that bureau, to await further orders, which we did. And I continued -carrying on what work I could there in the office concerning my reports. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that the first order you got was to remain where you -were, not move out, and stand by? - -Mr. ARCHER. Not to leave, that's right, and to be there. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened after that? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, as near as I can remember we did stay in the--in the -bureau, or at least I did until, oh, I would say approximately 10:50 -a.m. And that is only an approximate time because I don't remember -looking and seeing the exact time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened at that time? - -Mr. ARCHER. At that time, Lieutenant Smart came in and, of course, we -had been aware that the subject, Oswald, would probably be transferred -that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. What made you aware of this? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, for one thing, just the press itself, and quite a -bit in the papers and all. We just had it in our minds that we would. -Actually, nobody told me specifically that he would be, but like I say, -it was in my mind. I just had that impression. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, at approximately 10:50, you received orders from whom, -you said? - -Mr. ARCHER. Lieutenant Smart. - -Mr. HUBERT. To do what? - -Mr. ARCHER. He told us to follow him and to go to the basement, which -we did. We left our office and walked to the elevators, got in the -elevator and then proceeded into the basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which elevator did you use? - -Mr. ARCHER. We used the interior elevator, of which there are two -moving from the basement to the fourth floor. It is generally inside -the building. - -Mr. HUBERT. The public elevator? Not the jail elevator? - -Mr. ARCHER. Oh, no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, no, sir; I was in civilian clothes, much as I am right -now. White shirt, tie and suit. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't wear uniforms? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I am a plainclothes officer. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you referred to "we" indicating that there were -several of you there. Who were the others? Do you remember? - -Mr. ARCHER. I couldn't name you all the officers, I know Detective -Clardy and Detective McMillon and Detective Dawson and Lieutenant Smart -and myself were on this. We rode down in the same elevator. That's all -I recall. There were other officers that eventually gathered in the -basement, riding down, that is the only ones that I recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did that party move as a party as you left the elevator? - -Mr. ARCHER. As a group. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean. Where did you move to from the -elevator? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, after we got onto the--into the basement--the -elevator door was open--now, we got off and walked to in front of the -jail office and I believe Lieutenant Smart told us to standby there -for further orders. Then he walked away, at that particular time and -I stayed standing against the south wall, the south wall which was -opposite the jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that outside the---- - -Mr. ARCHER. Outside the jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Outside the jail office doors? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, no, sir; it is before you leave the corridor, going -into the basement in front of the jail office, but not into the -basement entrance. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. ARCHER. It would be hard for me to say the exact time. In general -I'd say about 5, maybe 7 minutes that we stayed there. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then where did you move to next? - -Mr. ARCHER. While standing there in front of the office, Captain Jones -came through with Chief Batchelor, passed in front of us, entered the -basement and, as I recall, they stood there and had some conversation. -I didn't hear the conversation. Couldn't tell you what it consisted -of, but after seeing this talking to Chief Batchelor, Captain Jones -came back and said, "I want this corridor kept clear," and at the same -time he did, the doors opened up. This was the corridor going into -the basement in front of the jail office, "I want the corridors kept -clear," and he didn't necessarily order me. He indicated--just said, "I -want the corridors kept clear," and that is when I took my station on -the north side of the jail door, right where the corridor goes into the -basement, and also where the jail door opens into the basement where -the automobiles are parked. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me about what time it was that you took that -station that you just described last? - -Mr. ARCHER. May I--my approximate time--oh, sir, I couldn't give you an -exact time from the time that would elapse, I would say approximately -11:05, or 11:08 a.m. Like I say, that is only an approximate---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's try to get at it another way. About how long before -the shooting did you take that post? - -Mr. ARCHER. I would say at least 15 minutes previous. Prior to the -shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave that position that you have just described in -any substantial way? I understand you weren't standing stock still, but -substantially, did you remain in that location until the shooting? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to have a look at this mockup here and at -the basement chart which is in conformity with it, and I am identifying -this particular basement chart that I am going to ask you to testify -about by marking on it, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5091. -Deposition of Don Ray Archer," is that right? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am signing my name on it, and for the purpose of -identification, I will ask you to put your name below mine. - -Mr. ARCHER. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you--use the mockup first to determine the exact spot -that you were standing in at what we'll call your final position. - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In which you were approximately 15 minutes before the -shooting. I say, using this mockup, I want you to place yourself -wherever you were, and relate it to the map or chart, or draw a circle -in the spot at which you were. First of all, show to me on the mockup -where you were. - -Mr. ARCHER. I was at this position right here, sir. In other words, -this door--this door here [indicating] had it been open--in fact, it -was open. I was helping to hold it open. Right on the corner of this -particular--it is not exactly a pillar, but just to the corner of -that---- - -Mr. HUBERT. If I put a circle right here, would that be the spot you -are talking about? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes; it would. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am making a circle and drawing a line out, and I am -writing, "Position of Archer for about 15 minutes prior to the -shooting." I am drawing this circle around that legend, and connecting -the circle which marks your position with the circle which describes -it, is that correct? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes; it is as near correct as I can recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. When the party came out, then the doors swung in to you, is -that right? - -Mr. ARCHER. Sir, as I remember it, when the party came out, now, as -near as I can recall, the doors [were] open. - -Mr. HUBERT. Opened which way? - -Mr. ARCHER. I just couldn't say. I have thought about that, but I don't -remember exactly. I'd say--as I was showing you here, I was standing -enough to this side to hold this door. - -Mr. HUBERT. To hold the---- - -Mr. ARCHER. This is the door [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. The corridor door? - -Mr. ARCHER. The corridor door, yes, sir; not the jail office door. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether the jail office door sort of -cornered you? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it couldn't corner me. It didn't interfere with me -at all. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is a swinging door, isn't it? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; it is. I am sure--I feel like in my own mind, it -was open. - -Mr. HUBERT. Swung open into the jail area? - -Mr. ARCHER. Swung open into the jail area. In my own mind, as I say, I -can't be certain about that point, because I just don't recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suggest to you that if you had--if it did open the -other way, it would have kind of boxed you in. - -Mr. ARCHER. I don't believe it did. That is the reason I have it in my -mind that it was opened the other way, because I recall no interference -from the door whatsoever. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember being boxed in? - -Mr. ARCHER. I know I wasn't boxed in, no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened then when the party came down that -was transferring Oswald? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they brought Oswald down to the basement, now, the -first officer that I saw was Captain Fritz. As he started out the jail -office door he stopped and paused, and whether he said something to the -detectives with Oswald, I don't know. He didn't--motioned to them like -for them to wait a second, like I say, I didn't hear any command or -any orders given at that time, and then he proceeded to walk out, and -I would say probably at that particular point, took about three paces. -Then the detectives started out with Oswald. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, as the party moved, they moved away from you, I guess? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes; they did. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, they were in your line of vision? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; they were. - -Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you saw? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they passed in front of me, I could see--I could -see the detectives on each side of Oswald leading him towards the ramp. -The automobile ramp in the basement. Then as they neared the front of -the ramp--now, keeping in mind that in this position that I was in, -I did have some bright lights shining into my eyes, and that because -of these lights it would be hard for me to recognize someone on the -opposite side of the ramp. I mean, you know, without focusing my vision -directly on them. In other words, I couldn't take a scanning view and -possibly recognize just anyone, but as they approached the ramp, just -as they reached the edge of the ramp, I caught a figure of a man. The -movement first turned my attention to that point. I had been watching -Oswald and the detectives, and more to my right, and then I caught the -movement of a man, and my first thought was, as I started moving--well, -my first thought was that somebody jumped out of the crowd, maybe -to take a sock at him. Someone got emotionally upset and jumped out -to take a sock at him and I started to move forward, and as I moved -forward I saw the man reach Oswald, raise up, and then the shot was -fired. - -Mr. HUBERT. So you were in motion before the shot was fired? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, I would say just it would be instantaneous. I mean, -when I saw the movement I feel like I started moving, too. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize Ruby? - -Mr. ARCHER. I didn't recognize Ruby at all. I didn't know the man -personally, and I didn't know his name (nor I didn't even know who -admitted the shooting) until following the shooting when they asked him -his name and he said, "You all know me, I'm Jack Ruby." - -Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he was overpowered? - -Mr. ARCHER. That was as we took him back to the jail office after the -shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any observation or remark or say anything at -all before he was moved into the jail office? - -Mr. ARCHER. Sir, an instant before I heard the shot, I heard a phrase. -Now, I couldn't say what the phrase was and then I definitely---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know what the phrase was? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I don't know. I couldn't say what the phrase was, -because I had not heard, but I did hear the words, "Son-of-a-bitch," -and then the shot was fired. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who said it? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I know Ruby said it. I'm positive of that. I was -looking right at the man. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mean that you didn't hear anything except those four -words, "Son-of-a-bitch"? - -Mr. ARCHER. That is the only words I could make out. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you knew it was coming from him? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I thought that it did. - -Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from him? - -Mr. ARCHER. I would say, at that particular time, I was five, maybe six -paces. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where did he move from? - -Mr. ARCHER. Sir, when I saw him, he was approaching the detectives. -It was my first glimpse of it. I, personally, could not say where he -moved from. He came out of the crowd, as far as I could tell, because -that was all that was around was the press and officers, lining the -corridors so far as I knew, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could he have come up from the area where the television -cameras were located? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; he could have. When he came into my vision, he -was already in front of the detectives, and I did not see exactly where -he did come from. - -Mr. HUBERT. What detective was he in front of? - -Mr. ARCHER. Detective--the ones that had Oswald, which would be Mr. -Leavelle and Mr. Graves. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what detectives Ruby passed by in his motion -from his prior position to when you saw him? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I--my own personal knowledge, now, well, if you -are speaking about that time, I did not; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, I think, is that you found out -subsequently? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes; subsequently. - -Mr. HUBERT. But at the moment, you didn't recognize them? - -Mr. ARCHER. At the time if someone had asked me who had been standing -there, I couldn't have said, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, he was brought into the jail office -immediately? - -Mr. ARCHER. After the shot was fired, sir, I tried to move forward, but -I was cut off by the other officers. The--I started forward, well, the -struggle went to my left as I moved forward, individually worked itself -way around in back of me, and just as they reached the jail office, -well, I took his left arm and assisted them in walking--I went into the -jail office with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened next? - -Mr. ARCHER. After we took him into the jail office? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. ARCHER. After we got the subject into the jail office I still -didn't know who he was. Someone asked where the gun was. Now, I had -not, up to this point, seen the gun other than just an instant after -the shot was fired when I caught sight of this man again, which was -Ruby. I didn't see the gun. I was interested in knowing where the gun -was, or if he still had the gun and we took him on into the jail office -and I assisted in keeping his left arm behind him and someone got his -right. I couldn't say who it was that had his other arm. Laid him down -on the floor, his head and face were away from me at that particular -time. But that is when I said, "Who is he?" - -I made that statement, because I didn't know who it was and Ruby then -turned his face in my direction. He didn't look directly at me. His -face had been turned in this manner [indicating]. He then turned in -this manner [indicating], and he--that is when he said, "You all know -me, I'm Jack Ruby." - -Mr. HUBERT. What happened next in that jail office area? - -Mr. ARCHER. When we had the subject on the floor, I was reaching for -my handcuffs. I reached back in this manner [indicating] to unhook my -handcuffs off my belt, and Detective McMillon was astraddle and over -him, over Ruby, and I believe I said, "Mac, do you need my cuffs?" - -About that time, "No; I have got it now." And said he placed the cuffs -on Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next? - -Mr. ARCHER. After he got the cuffs on him, there were still--oh, there -was still lots of confusion going on, and several statements were -being made or being asked. I don't know. They seemed--some of the -statements seemed to come from behind me. I don't know whether it was -reporters looking into the jail office or just who it was, but there -were some statements made inquiring--several people were asking, "Who -is he?" Did he hit him? Did he shoot him? Or things of that nature, as -I recall. And he said at that particular point, "I hope I killed the -son-of-a-bitch." - -I think Captain King was there just a very short time. We began to -get--McMillon and I and Detective Clardy, I know the three of us and -perhaps one or two other officers, I couldn't say for sure, assisted -Ruby to his feet, and we started toward the jail elevator with him, -along with Captain King. I believe Captain King said at that point in -there somewhere, "Let's get him onto the elevator and take him to the -fifth floor jail." So, we then went to the elevator. They put him on -the elevator, and I believe that I was either last, or near the last -getting on the elevator, and then we proceeded on to the fifth floor -jail. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when you got up there? - -Mr. ARCHER. After we got to the fifth floor jail we took him back to -the investigative section of the jail, which is just an open section, -not a cell. Just an open section of the jail, and we began to search -him for any weapons. We were, at least I was mainly concerned as -to whether he had any other weapons on him at all. We stripped him -and stripped him of his clothing, and I wasn't interested too much -in personal property, but mainly searching for weapons or bombs, or -anything else he might have concealed on him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any personal property on him? - -Mr. ARCHER. Did I find any personal property on him? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir, I searched him. I did remove some personal -property. I recall a large roll of money and perhaps some change. I'm -not sure about that. The main thing I remember was the large roll of -money. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the property you took from his person? - -Mr. ARCHER. We had been there--before I started removing any personal -property; well, I searched him by feeling of him, you know, feeling for -any weapons first, and then one of the other jailers, uniformed jail -officers, Haake, came up and what personal property I took out of his -pockets, I handed right over to him. I didn't bother to itemize it or -anything else, because that is their job, not ours, and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't make an inventory of his property? - -Mr. ARCHER. I didn't; no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You just handed it over to another man? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby then? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did he say? - -Mr. ARCHER. During--after we--as I began searching him, making the -general search of him, as we were standing there I said--I had seen -Oswald on the floor in the jail office after he had been brought in -there and I looked at him, and to me he looked like he was dead. Of -course, I couldn't say he was dead, but I am saying that to me he -looked like he was dead, and I said to Ruby at that time, "Jack I think -you killed him," and he just looked at me right straight in the eye and -said, "Well, I intended to shoot him three times." - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't know him. I wouldn't recognize the man -if I saw him on the street. I do--I knew of him. I had heard the name -before. I did have--I did recollect that he had been handled by the -department, but I never arrested him, and I had never seen him. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, you knew the name was Jack Ruby, though? - -Mr. ARCHER. Sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. You knew the name was Jack Ruby, though? - -Mr. ARCHER. I didn't know the name was Jack Ruby other than he told me -his name was Jack Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am handing two documents, which I'm identifying as -follows, to wit: One document apparently is a copy of a statement dated -November 27, 1964, addressed to Chief Curry, apparently signed by you, -which I am marking, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5092, -deposition of D. R. Archer," I have signed it on the first page, and -I have initialed the second page by marking my initials on the lower -right-hand corner, and another document which I have marked in the -right margin, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5093, deposition -of D. R. Archer," and I have signed my name below that, and put my -initials on the second page, bottom right-hand corner. And I would like -you to examine those exhibits, please, and then after you have done so, -I wish to ask you some questions about them. - -Mr. ARCHER. Now, then---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you read both of them? - -Mr. ARCHER. I have read this one [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well---- - -Mr. ARCHER. You want me to read---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; read both of them. - -Mr. ARCHER. All right. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have read the exhibits we have marked 5092 and -5093. Now, I will ask you if those statements contain the truth as you -knew it? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; with one correction here in this statement that -is headed by "Federal Bureau of Investigation". - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you will find that that is Exhibit 5093. - -Mr. ARCHER. 5093, yes, sir. It is not correct when it states that I -remained with Ruby until approximately 3 p.m. I believe that that was -3:30 p.m., as stated in my report. As I recall, when I was interviewed -by the gentleman, I did say 3:30. Now, like I say, it could be my -error, could be theirs, but---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Were there any omissions from, of fact from those -statements? - -Mr. ARCHER. Any what, sir? - -Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions of fact. - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, I didn't go into every detail. There are several -statements that I didn't include in this report, and of some of the -conversation that took place in the jail and during the time that I was -with Ruby, and then some of the statements that were made downstairs. -By this, I mean when this investigation was made. I didn't have in -mind of any testimony being involved, that it was--more or less an -investigation as to how Ruby got into the basement, and what the -security breakdown was. That my--that was my impression. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you are relating to the fact that both of those -statements omit any statement as to what Ruby told you concerning his -intent to kill? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish to afford you an opportunity to state why that -fact, or those facts were omitted from the statements? - -Mr. ARCHER. Well, at the time, I just didn't consider them pertinent to -the investigation that was in progress, and I just didn't recall them -as important information at the time. And as I explained, it was in my -mind that it was an inquiry, more or less, as to where I was and what I -was doing, and of an inquiry as to whether there was any negligent on -my part in regards to this security breakdown. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the inclusion in these two statements of -his phrase "Son-of-a-bitch," was more important than his statement of -his intent? - -Mr. ARCHER. Sir, at the time, it is like I say, whenever I gave the -statements I had in mind as to what I saw at the time of the shooting, -and that did take place at the time of the shooting, and I didn't go -into great detail as to what took place after we took him into custody, -took him upstairs and searched him and all. In other words, I had -in mind that if anyone wanted to know about it, well, they would be -afforded a chance for me to relate that. - -Mr. HUBERT. When, in fact, did they find out that you had this -knowledge? - -Mr. ARCHER. I don't recall the exact time or day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you file another report than those we have here? - -Mr. ARCHER. I have another report that is the part mental interview -which was taken, as I recall, from the date, on November 30th, which -was a continuing inquiry as to how Ruby got into the basement of the -city hall. I believe that it was taken by Lieutenant McCaghren and -Lieutenant C. C. Wallace. - -Mr. HUBERT. In that statement you did not mention what Ruby told you -concerning his intent either, did you? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I did not at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first convey that information to anyone at all? - -Mr. ARCHER. To Mr. Alexander with the district attorney's office, when -he made a court inquiry at the city hall. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was that? - -Mr. ARCHER. I don't remember the date, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, how long after the shooting? - -Mr. ARCHER. I just couldn't say. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, was it before Christmas, for example, or after? - -Mr. ARCHER. I don't remember. I do know that Alexander---- - -Mr. HUBERT. How long before the trial began did you convey this -information to anyone? - -Mr. ARCHER. I would say approximately 3 weeks. Now, that is just a -guess, because I just don't recall the time there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us the circumstances under which this inquiry -was made of you concerning the intent to kill as expressed by him? - -Mr. ARCHER. Mr. Alexander made the inquiry in talking to us together, -and also individually, as to what we heard that might be pertinent, -what might not be pertinent at that time, and I went over and related -all that I could recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first time you mentioned to anyone at all -what you had heard Ruby say regarding his intent? - -Mr. ARCHER. As far as I recall; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that was about 3 weeks before the beginning of the -trial. - -Mr. ARCHER. I would say very--approximately. That could vary, because -I don't remember the date. I wish I could, but I didn't make any -particular note of it. Like I say, at the time, I just didn't take note -of it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you mean to say to me that you did not regard -those two statements made to you by Ruby as being important in a trial -of this man for first-degree murder? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't say that I didn't regard them as -important. I just say at the time that these statements were made it -was in my mind that it was not necessarily a gathering of facts to try -the man. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I gather from your testimony that you didn't convey -this information to anybody at all until you were asked to do so in an -interview with Mr. Alexander, which, from your testimony, I judge to be -approximately the middle of January or afterwards, which is to say, 2 -months after the event. - -Now, I ask you if you did not think that that information was extremely -valuable information in a pending prosecution for first-degree murder? - -Mr. ARCHER. I didn't, at the time, give it a thought in the way of -prosecution, because in my own mind I didn't feel that a lot of the -statements would be admissible. I don't know what would be admissible -and what wouldn't. - -Mr. HUBERT. It never occurred to you that it was your duty to tell your -superior officer, or somebody that you had heard that this man said, "I -meant to kill him"? - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it didn't. Had they inquired about it, I certainly -would have told them. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, have you anything else to say, sir. - -Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; not unless there is something more you would like -to ask me. If I can relate, or tell you anything, I would be happy to. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now you have not been interviewed by any member of the -Commission or by me, before, have you? That is to say, a member of the -President's Commission, on the assassination? - -Mr. ARCHER. Not the President's Commission. I have been interviewed by -the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which you know about. - -Mr. HUBERT. But no interview by me or any other member of the -Commission staff? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. This deposition is the first time you have said anything to -any member of the Commission staff? - -Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; so far as I know. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. That's all. Thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BARNARD S. CLARDY - -The testimony of Barnard S. Clardy was taken at 2:45 p.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective Barnard (spelling) -B-a-r-n-a-r-d? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Middle initial S. Clardy. Auto Theft Bureau, Criminal -Investigation Division, Police Department of Dallas. Mr. Clardy, my -name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the -general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination -of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order -No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress -Number 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in -conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have -been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Detective Clardy. - -I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry -is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee -Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Detective Clardy, the nature -of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death -of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the -general inquiry. Now, Detective Clardy, you appear here today by virtue -of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the -President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin to Chief Curry. Under the -rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written -notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also -provide that a witness may waive the notice. Now, do you waive this -3-day notice? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Very well. Now, will you stand and be sworn, please. Raise -your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CLARDY. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please? - -Mr. CLARDY. Barnard S. Clardy. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your age? - -Mr. CLARDY. Thirty-seven. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? - -Mr. CLARDY. 936 Ferncliff Trail. - -Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation? - -Mr. CLARDY. Police Detective. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied, sir? - -Mr. CLARDY. Since November 5, 1950. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the criminal -investigation bureau? - -Mr. CLARDY. Since December the 5th, 1955. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, is--who is head of the auto theft bureau? - -Mr. CLARDY. Captain Nichols. - -Mr. HUBERT. Captain Nichols, and the entire criminal investigation -division, of which the auto theft division is a part is headed by Chief -Stevenson, is that right, sir? - -Mr. CLARDY. Chief Stevenson; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, Detective Clardy. I'm going to mark three documents -as I will indicate, after which I wish to ask you some questions -concerning those documents. At first, a document consisting of three -pages being, apparently, a copy of a letter dated November 27, 1963, -addressed to Chief Curry, the original of which was apparently signed -by you, B. S. Clardy? I am marking the first page of that document -"Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5061. Deposition of -Detective B. S. Clardy." - -Under which I am signing my name, and I am placing my initials in the -right-hand lower corner of the second and third pages of that document. -The second document purports to be a report from the FBI concerning an -interview with you on November 25, 1963. I am marking that document in -the lower right-hand corner as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. -Exhibit No. 5062, Deposition of B. S. Clardy," and I am signing my name -and putting my initials on the second page in the lower right-hand -corner. - -The third document consists of three pages, and purports to be a report -of an interview of you on December 3d, by Agents Quigley and Dallman of -the FBI. On the first page I am marking as follows, to wit: "Dallas, -Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5063. Deposition of B. S. Clardy." -Signing my name on the first page, placing my initials on the second -and third pages in the lower right-hand corner on each of those pages. - -Now, Detective Clardy, I hand you these three documents and--identified -as 5061 and 5062 and 5063, and ask you if you have had an opportunity -to read those today? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent substantially the truth of -all you know concerning the matter under inquiry this morning--this -afternoon? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; they do. The only thing that I find that I erred -on was in the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now---- - -Mr. CLARDY. On my statement, that the approximate time where I went -down was approximately 11 instead of 10, and the approximate time that -we brought Mr. Jack Ruby from the jail to Captain Fritz' office was -approximately 3:30, instead of 2:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Those corrections you wish to make on the document marked -5061? - -Mr. CLARDY. 5061. - -Mr. HUBERT. As I understood it, there were two time corrections that -you think should be made, is that correct? - -Mr. CLARDY. On that document alone, sir. And this was approximately -closer to 11 a.m., on this other document. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. You wish to make a correction as to the time -with reference to Clardy Exhibit No. 5061, to wit, your letter to Chief -Curry on November 27th and---- - -Mr. CLARDY. And on that also. It was approximately 3:30 instead of 2:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Two corrections here. - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; two corrections on that. - -Mr. HUBERT. And in the second paragraph of that letter where you name -the time as 10 a.m.---- - -Mr. CLARDY. Approximately; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. As the time at which Lieutenant Smart advised you and other -officers to report to the jail office. You now say the time should have -been what? - -Mr. CLARDY. Should have been 11 a.m. - -Mr. HUBERT. Should have been 11 a.m. Do you have another time -correction to make? - -Mr. CLARDY. Time on the last paragraph there was the time that we -brought the prisoner out, Mr. Ruby, to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. HUBERT. It reads now as "2:30 p.m."? - -Mr. CLARDY. It reads 2:30. It should have been approximately 3:30 p.m. - -Mr. HUBERT. Should have been 3:30 instead of 2:30. Both of those -corrections being as to Clardy Exhibit No. 5061. Did I understand that -you might have a correction as to Clardy Exhibit No. 5062? - -Mr. CLARDY. Clardy Exhibit No. 5062. This. The second paragraph should -have been approximately 11 a.m., instead of 10 a.m. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, your best recollection is that the time that -Lieutenant Smart advised you and other officers to go to the city jail -office was 11 o'clock rather than 10 o'clock? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything you can tell us that would explain that -error in time that you made? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. You see, the point I am making is, that on November 27, you -stated 10 a.m., apparently in your letter. Then--well, prior to that, -on November 25, when you were interviewed by the FBI you told them at -10 o'clock, and do you think that it is simply a mistake in time, or---- - -Mr. CLARDY. Well, it is a mistake in time on me--on the--on my first -report I was under the impression that I told them 11 a.m., which--now, -whether I did or not, I don't know, sir, on my first interview. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me call your attention to the fact that on Document -5063, which is the interview on December 3, you also mentioned 10 a.m., -apparently. All I am trying to do, Detective Clardy, is to find out -why it is that you think it is 11 o'clock now, whereas before on three -separate occasions you thought it was 10. - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I thought I told the agent that I talked to that it -was possibly closer to 11 than it was to 10, when I talked to him. To -be--just preactly [sic] what time I went down there, I am just judging. - -Mr. HUBERT. In any case, your present recollection is definitely---- - -Mr. CLARDY. That it would have been closer to 11 than it was to 10. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. CLARDY. I am definitely sure in my own mind that it was sometime -after 10:30. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that causes you to fix that precisely? - -Mr. CLARDY. After just thinking, and all the other officers up in the -bureau sure that it was closer to 11 than it was to 10, I don't know -whether I looked at my watch or whether--on a previous deal, or where I -got the 10 o'clock in my mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is apparent then that you did have 10 o'clock in -your mind until when speaking to others you became convinced that you -must be wrong and the 11 o'clock is closer to it, is that correct? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was that. I wasn't any--wasn't in -the basement more than 30 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone speak to you and ask you to correct your -statement from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are doing that on your own volition? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. It is because you have become convinced that you are wrong? - -Mr. CLARDY. I was wrong on the time, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You were wrong? - -Mr. CLARDY. That 10 o'clock is definitely wrong on time. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you are, right now telling us that you are quite -certain that it was? - -Mr. CLARDY. That it was closer to 11 o'clock than it was to 10. - -Mr. HUBERT. That it was closer to 11 than 10. And that the previous -statement about 10 o'clock is simply wrong? - -Mr. CLARDY. Simply wrong; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. No one has asked you to change? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. That wrong time was my fault, and nobody else's. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone speak to you about the wrong time? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Haven't done so to this time? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were off duty on November 22? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that you did not participate in reference to the -investigation concerning the President's death on November 23? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him, and in what way? - -Mr. CLARDY. I had known him approximately in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 -years. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what way? How did you come in contact with him? - -Mr. CLARDY. To the best of my recollection I met him when I went into -his place of business that he owned on South Ervay in connection with -work, when I was working as a patrolman. I say I met him. I didn't -meet him at that time. I knew him, knew who he was. I--first time I -was ever introduced to him, shook hands with him, was at--after I went -into criminal investigation. Possibly in the early part of 1956. I was -looking for someone in connection with an auto theft in the vicinity -of one of the places that he owned and he had an interest in the Vegas -Club. I'm not sure who I was with, or who introduced---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you speak a little louder, please? - -Mr. CLARDY. I am not sure who I was with, or who introduced me to him -at that time. Then approximately--maybe 6 or 8 months before this -come up he stopped me downtown one day and started telling me about a -traffic ticket he got. Other than that, I had seen him at a distance -and had spoke to him. I had seen him quite frequently when I was -working late nights where the B and B Club is, that is on Oak Lawn, -close to Lemmon. There is one place of business between the Vegas Club -and the B and B, and we would go in there quite frequently when we were -working late nights, and I have seen him in there on several occasions. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was your acquaintance with him such that you would -recognize him immediately upon seeing him? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you recognize him in that way, whether he had a hat -on, or a hat off? - -Mr. CLARDY. I know the man well enough if I caught a glimpse of him I -should recognize him; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I am going to mark a chart of the basement -area of the Dallas Police Department, as follows, to wit: "Dallas, -Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5064. Deposition of B. S. Clardy," -under which I am signing my name. For the purposes of identification, -however, before I move to that, I want to ask you concerning documents -5061, 5062, and 5063, previously identified, which I now hand you again. - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ask you if there are any other corrections you wish to -make---- - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the documents? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Does the information contained in those documents represent -the truth, so far as you know? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any modifications or changes or deletions that you would -like to make? - -Mr. CLARDY. I don't believe there is, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Anything omitted, that you know of? - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the only thing that is not in there that I know -anything about is possibly some of these people that come in and talk -to him after we took him upstairs, which nobody that made any of these -investigations asked me about. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will get to that later, but with the exception -of these omissions that you just mentioned, and to which I will come -back at a later time, these documents represent the truth? There is no -deletion and nothing more to add other than that other matter we have -been talking about? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you to put your name under my signature where it -appears, and your initials under my initials where they appear on each -of the documents. Right there. - -Mr. CLARDY. Right under here? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Just--now, we'll be using this chart later on, which -has been marked 5064, and I have signed it, and I will ask you, for the -purposes of identification, to put your signature under mine on that -one, too. Now, these documents have been corrected, I understand, that -it was simply closer to 10 o'clock than to 11 that you received---- - -Mr. CLARDY. Closer to 11 than 10. - -Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon. Closer to 11 than to 10 when you -received certain instructions from Lieutenant Smart, is that correct? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were these instructions the first connection that you had -with the movement of Oswald? - -Mr. CLARDY. We had been told earlier that morning, approximately--come -on duty at 7 o'clock, and was--and was told to stay in the office. Now, -that---- - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your normal tour began at 7, but you were -told to stay in the office? - -Mr. CLARDY. Was told to stay in the office, that we would have to move -the prisoner. - -Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that? - -Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you anything about how the prisoner was going -to be moved, or at what time? - -Mr. CLARDY. I was under the impression that he didn't know what time or -how, hisself, at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to form that impression? - -Mr. CLARDY. I think we went to get a cup of coffee, and I asked him, -and he said, "I don't know." - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the impression that he didn't know what the -plans were, actually came from the statement that he himself actually -told you to the effect that he didn't know? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then what happened after? - -Mr. CLARDY. Sometime shortly before 11, they told us to report to the -basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. Smart did? - -Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart. - -Mr. HUBERT. Lieutenant Smart. - -Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart, myself, and Detective McMillon, Detective -Archer and Detective Watson, and Detective Dawson out of our bureau. - -Mr. HUBERT. You moved as a group? - -Mr. CLARDY. Uh-huh, all down on the same elevator, and there was some -other detectives from the juvenile bureau, I am sure, was on the same -elevator. Detective Lowery, Detective "Blackie" Harrison, and possibly -some others. Those, I'm sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. What instructions were given to you? - -Mr. CLARDY. Went to the basement. Lieutenant Smart---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Speak a little louder. - -Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart is the one, the only one who had any -orders as to what he wanted us to do. Said, "Line up along the wall -here on each side." and help keep the people back out of the way. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that? - -Mr. CLARDY. Well, I tried to, sir. Don't look like we done much good. - -Mr. HUBERT. I did not mean that to be facetious. I was simply following -the line of thought. Then you followed his instructions to line the---- - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want you to take a look at this mockup here and show -us where you stood, if you did stay in one place, from the time that -you got down in the basement area until the shot was fired. - -Mr. CLARDY. Let me get lined out here. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. CLARDY. I was on this corner to--just to the right of it, most of -the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. That would be here, isn't it? [Indicating.] - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have marked--you have indicated on the mockup here -a position which I am now marking by a circle. - -Mr. CLARDY. I was just down from the corner. - -Mr. HUBERT. This way? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'll---- - -Mr. CLARDY. In other words, I was close enough to the corner that -I could see around both ways. One occasion, I went and talked to -Detective McMillon. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you took this position, and went over there -and came back, and this is where you were at the time of the shooting? - -Mr. CLARDY. At the actual shooting, I had moved approximately 3 steps -to my right. As they backed this car out, apparently, some reporters -tried to come across here [indicating]. And I had stepped up that way, -not over--not that far up, sir. I only took 2 or 3 steps. I would say -maybe probably as far as from me to you. I had stepped to my right. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, I have marked on Exhibit 5064, as a result -of what you have stated while looking at the mockup, 2 positions -concerning you. One of which I have marked, encircled, "Position of B. -S. Clardy prior to shooting," and second one, which is, you say, is -approximately 3 feet further towards the Commerce Street entrance. - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Which was your position at the time of the shot? - -Mr. CLARDY. At no time---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; might add something a little further, that at no -time other than when I walked across to Detective McMillon do I recall -being over 3 feet from that corner in any direction. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first get to that corner, approximately? - -Mr. CLARDY. That would have been approximately 11 o'clock, maybe 10:55. -It would have been pretty close. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that from the--from between 10:55 and 11 o'clock you -stayed in the position which is marked on Exhibit 5064, that being the -position of B. S. Clardy prior to the shooting. You stayed in that -position all--within 3 feet of it the whole--during the whole time -until Oswald was shot, except on one occasion when you said you went -over to talk to Detective McMillon? - -Mr. CLARDY. That's right. - -Mr. HUBERT. How far did you move, and in what direction did you go? - -Mr. CLARDY. Certainly--well, sir; he was across the aisle on the other -side. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you mark on the map approximately the position -of McMillon when you walked over to him? - -Mr. CLARDY. Approximately--I walked over to him approximately in here -[indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle, now, and I am putting on there, -"Position of McMillon when Clardy walked over," right? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you go back to your original position? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that you stayed there except at -the moment of the shooting you were about 3 feet in the direction of -Commerce Street from that original basic position? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you moved 3 feet towards Commerce -Street, as you say you did? - -Mr. CLARDY. The best of my recollection, as they backed the car out, -that there was some of the press tried to come in front of the car, and -I had to step to my right to watch them, and I stepped to my right and -Captain Fritz had come into my view and stepped down to the right and -turned slightly to my right, and approximately at that time, I hadn't -seen Oswald myself, but approximately at the time I stepped to my right -I saw a blur of fast movement and I tried to turn, and heard the shot. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize Ruby then? - -Mr. CLARDY. I had not seen him to recognize him; no, sir. Just all--I -was turned, moved to the right, and all I could see was a fast blur of -movement. - -Mr. HUBERT. At any time during this time that you were standing in your -original position as marked on the map, or at any time when you went -over to see McMillon, or at any time for that matter, whatsoever, did -you see Jack Ruby in the crowd? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir; I did not; and approximately 2 or 3 minutes before -the shooting I had looked over the crowd in the basement. Why, I don't -know. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did, in fact, look over there? - -Mr. CLARDY. I had looked up to the right. Lieutenant Smart, and--I -think--I am not for sure--Chief Batchelor was with him at the armored -truck, and I did look on over the crowd on back around. Now, this could -have been more than 3 minutes before the shooting occurred. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were the conditions such that if Ruby had been standing in -that crowd you could have singled him out and seen him? - -Mr. CLARDY. As many people as there was in there at the time, sir, he -could have very easily been behind somebody where I couldn't have seen -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just how many people were in that area where Ruby -apparently was? I don't mean an accurate count. Of course, you didn't -count them. - -Mr. CLARDY. In the area where I presume that he come from, 12 to 15, -on over behind the rail there was quite a few people, whether he come -across the rail, whether he come down the ramp, like he told us, I -don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, the Main Street ramp itself going toward Main Street, -you figured there were about 15 people? - -Mr. CLARDY. From along here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Don't say "along here," because that won't show up. - -Mr. CLARDY. So that we'll understand what I mean here, take this. There -was people back over in here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's call that area "B" and you are talking about area B, -and you say there was a considerable amount of people? - -Mr. CLARDY. Considerable amount of people back in there and from along -here [indicating], across and along in here [indicating], there was---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am drawing a semicircle, is that approximately -correct? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And I am calling that "line X to Y." - -Mr. CLARDY. I'd say there was a minimum of 15 people from here across -here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Minimum of 15 people in the front row, or some in the back? - -Mr. CLARDY. There were some in the back. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, you think there were about 15 people strung along this -line that we have marked "X to Y," being a curving line, in--and that -there was some back of them, and up the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. CLARDY. At the time, I didn't see anybody back up in here anywhere. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you didn't see anybody---- - -Mr. CLARDY. I didn't see anybody back as far as this [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, the second line which you have described, "as far as -this," is--I'm going to mark that line and put it, for purposes of -identification I'm marking it as a line designated by "1" and "2." Both -numerals being encircled. I should like you to consider the area which -is bounded by these two lines, "XY," and "1, 2," and the rail and at -the wall is area A. Tell me how many people you think were in area A? - -Mr. CLARDY. In this area here? I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. In area A, which has been designated by you as being -encompassed between line "X" and "1," that being a curving line. Line -"1,"--point "1" in a point to point "2" in a circle, the rail and the -wall---- - -Mr. CLARDY. I'd say there was approximately four or five people up and -down here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are describing with the pencil---- - -Mr. CLARDY. Where the circle is down across here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are describing with the pencil about four or five -people along the rail lining of the basement side of the rail, is that -correct? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir--no, sir; on the ramp side. - -Mr. HUBERT. Ramp side, parking area side? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; on the ramp side. Not the parking area side. On -the--this being the ramp here [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes. - -Mr. CLARDY. Coming off from Main. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see what you mean, on the ramp side? - -Mr. CLARDY. On the ramp side. There was a couple of uniformed officers -in this area. I am not sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. McMillon was one of them, wasn't he? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, it was. You put his position, also, did you see W. J. -Harrison in that group? - -Mr. CLARDY. W. J.? That is a detective in the juvenile bureau? - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know. I can't testify. I am not--well, that's -all right. - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, there was a detective, I am pretty sure the one you -are talking about. I don't know him real well? - -Mr. HUBERT. That's all right. - -Mr. CLARDY. I don't know whether it was Harrison that was along in here -[indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you make a circle and state where you think -"Blackie" Harrison was at the time of the shooting? - -Mr. CLARDY. Time I saw Detective Harrison, to the best of my knowledge, -he was along in there [indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am marking that circle by putting "Position of 'Blackie' -Harrison at time of shooting," is that correct or at the time you saw -him? - -Mr. CLARDY. At the time I checked, looked over the basement, which -would have been approximately 3 minutes, 2 or 3 minutes before the -shooting. - -Mr. HUBERT. You saw him 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting. Now, I'll -ask you to check that again, that circle that I have designated by the -legend, "position of 'Blackie' Harrison at the time Clardy saw him 2 or -3 minutes prior to the shooting." Is that approximately the position of -Mr. Harrison at the time designated? - -Mr. CLARDY. Correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was the time you looked over the crowd? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. In that area, again, can you tell us about how many people -were concentrated? - -Mr. CLARDY. Including a couple of uniformed officers in that area, -there was possibly six or seven people in that area at that time. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the time you looked over at the crowd then you could see -that if he stays behind this crowd of people looking up the Main Street -ramp---- - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody come down at all? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement there? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. I saw the--I say "movement"--I saw the car that -Lieutenant Pierce drove out that ramp, and at the time that the car -approached the top of the ramp there was nobody in that area. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the car at the top of the ramp? - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the car now as it went out--let me get this straight -here. - -Mr. HUBERT. Don't use the map now, if you can do it without it. - -Mr. CLARDY. Let me get it straight here. I watched the car drive out -until he drove approximately half, or maybe three-fourths of the way -up, and at that time, clear back down to here [indicating] there was -nobody in between. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. CLARDY. Now, as to what--watching it drive on up to the top of the -ramp, no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not see it drive to the top? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, roughly between half and three-fourths of the way up -the ramp? Were you looking in that direction after the car had passed -out of the ramp? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you think this, if anybody had come running down -there you would have seen them? - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, it is quite possible that somebody could have come -running down there and I wouldn't have seen them. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not, in any case, see anybody? - -Mr. CLARDY. I did not see anybody. Now, I was facing more over in--oh, -almost straight across the ramp after I looked over the---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Over the crowd? - -Mr. CLARDY. Over the crowd. - -Mr. HUBERT. And you looked over the crowd prior to the time the car -passed? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did not look over the crowd then--after that? - -Mr. CLARDY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is possible from your position that anybody -could have come down that ramp and you would not have seen them? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that, sir? - -Mr. CLARDY. Well, I wasn't just in particular watching toward the -direction--at the time that Lieutenant Pierce come out, there was a -lot of these people moving around, and I was trying to keep an eye on -them. At the time the other car was brought out--being brought out, -there was a lot of those people over in this area in here moving around -[indicating]. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have already testified that as to the -actual shooting itself, you just saw a movement? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Off to your left? - -Mr. CLARDY. Just a blur of movement. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you first identify Ruby? - -Mr. CLARDY. After he had been taken inside the jail office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then? - -Mr. CLARDY. As I went inside the main jail office they had the cuffs on -him, and Detective McMillon said, "Well, let's take him on upstairs." -And said, "Barney, take my gun." - -I took Detective McMillon's gun out of his holster, and at the time I -did, Jack Ruby said, "I'm Jack Ruby. Don't you know me? Don't you know -me?" Said, "Yes, I know you, Jack," something to that effect. I am not -sure, because I was sick to my stomach of what had happened, and then -seeing him and wondering in my own mind how in the world a man had -ever got in there. I took Detective McMillon's gun and mine and put it -in one of the lockers in the jail office there, which is provided for -that purpose. And along with Detective McMillon, Detective "Blackie" -Harrison, and Detective Archer, and there was some other detectives on -the elevator with us, and I'm not sure who, and we took Ruby directly -to the fifth floor. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comments during that trip? - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I was on the--I was the last one that got to the -elevator. If he was--made any comment on the way up I didn't hear him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, in your statement to the FBI agent which has been -identified as No. 5063, you stated he did mention other things. That -you had heard Ruby mention that he had intended to get off three shots, -do you recall that? - -Mr. CLARDY. That was after we got upstairs. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that. - -Mr. CLARDY. I am not sure who asked him the question. I believe it was -Detective Archer, and asked him in some way, "Did you intend to"--or, -"Did you think you could kill the man with one shot?" And he said, "I -intended to get off three shots." Said, "I didn't think that I could be -stopped before I got off three shots." But, that, I---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Ruby, or did anyone ask Ruby in your presence -how he had gotten into the basement? - -Mr. CLARDY. I asked Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. You did by yourself? - -Mr. CLARDY. I asked him myself, and I am sure there were several others -who did. - -Mr. HUBERT. That was when you were up on the fifth floor? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; shortly after he got---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Shortly after? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him, and what did he reply? What did you -ask him first? - -Mr. CLARDY. I asked him how he got into the basement and how long he -had been there. I don't know whether that is the exact words I asked -him in or not, and he said that Lieutenant Pierce, or he called him -Rio Pierce--I believe said Rio Pierce, Lt. Rio Pierce drove out in the -car and the officer stepped out from the ramp momentarily to talk to -Lieutenant Pierce, or said something to him, and I come in behind him -right on down the ramp, and says, "When I got approximately halfway -down the ramp I heard somebody holler, 'Hey, you,' but I don't know -whether he was hollering at me or not, but I just ducked my head and -kept coming." - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything further? - -Mr. CLARDY. Further stated, said, "If I had planned this I couldn't -have had my timing better." Said, "It was one chance in a million." Or -something to that effect. Said, "If I had planned this, I couldn't have -had my timing any better." - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any statement to you as to why he had done it? - -Mr. CLARDY. He said--no, somebody--I was going to ask him, and I am -sure some other officer asked him as to why. He said, "Somebody had to -do it. You all couldn't." - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only explanation he offered? - -Mr. CLARDY. Well, later on we talked to him a little further and he -went into this long story about how much he thought of President -Kennedy, and how he was remorseful. Didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to have to -come to testify on a trial, and---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything here to indicate that he had any -accomplices in his act? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had been to the Western Union -that morning? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about where his car was? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about there being a dog in it? - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I recall that he said there was some money in the car. -I--I don't recall him saying it in my presence, about the dog being in -it. I do recall that he talked later about some dogs that he had that -he thought so much of. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, a bit earlier when I asked you whether or -not there were any omissions from the documents, Exhibits Nos. 5061, -5062, and 5063, you indicated there was an omission concerning what had -been said to you by some people who had talked to you. I think that is -what the omission--it was something along that line. Do you recall what -that was now? - -Mr. CLARDY. Well, I think some of the stuff that we have gone into -there that you have asked me as to some of the things that were said, -or on down the line that I don't--I don't recall any of the FBI agents -asking me who come up there and talked to him, whether they did or not, -I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell me what you had in mind a little while -ago in the deposition when you said, "Yes, this is all right, but there -has been omitted something," and I told you at that time, "Well, we'll -come back to it a bit later," and now, I am coming back to it. I was -wondering just what you had in mind when you stated that there had been -an omission? - -Mr. CLARDY. I don't believe it is in that report that Secret Service -agent, Mr. Sorrels, came up shortly after we arrived and talked to Mr. -Ruby. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think that---- - -Mr. CLARDY. Whether that is in there or not---- - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you had in mind? - -Mr. CLARDY. That and the FBI agent, Mr. Hall, then came up and talked -to Ruby off and on until the time that he was taken to Captain Fritz' -office. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long a period was that? - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, he was up there probably within 15 to 20 minutes after -we had taken Mr. Ruby upstairs. Agent Hall was, and he talked to Mr. -Ruby at considerable length until he had several telephone calls. I -don't know who they were from or what they was about, but, that he was -called to the telephone several times while he was up there. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Sorrels was present also? - -Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels had left before Mr. Hall come up there. Sorrels -had talked briefly to Mr. Ruby. I say, "briefly," he--approximately 10 -minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if I can get the time sequence. Within 15 minutes -after Ruby was brought to the top--to the fifth floor, Mr. Hall came? - -Mr. CLARDY. Uh-huh. - -Mr. HUBERT. And interviewed him, with some interruptions by telephone -calls, for approximately what, now, an hour and a half? - -Mr. CLARDY. I'd say Mr. Hall was up there 3-1/2 hours. - -Mr. HUBERT. Three and a half hours. - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the 15 minutes or so before Mr. Hall came, Mr. -Sorrels came? - -Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels came. - -Mr. HUBERT. And stayed about 10 minutes? - -Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels came up just very briefly. Very shortly after. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you meant when you mentioned a little while -ago that there was some omissions from your statement? - -Mr. CLARDY. That is what I had reference to; yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you have reference to any other omissions? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then, let's put it this way. You have already stated -that what is in these records, these three exhibits, 5061, 5062, and -5063, are true and correct; that you did not want to modify or change -anything that you had previously said. That it was some omissions, and -now, do I understand you to say that the omissions that you previously -spoke of is what you just testified to? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other omissions that you know of? - -Mr. CLARDY. None that I know of. - -Mr. HUBERT. So, that by taking Exhibits 5061, 5062, and 5063, together -with your deposition today, is it fair to state that there is on record -everything you know about the assassination of Oswald? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, other than the interview that you had with me earlier -today, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, the interview you had with me was prior to lunch, is -that correct? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you state now whether there are any inconsistencies -between your deposition and what we discussed at the interview to which -I have just referred? - -Mr. CLARDY. Nothing other than the--you were referring to those -previous statements? - -Mr. HUBERT. No; I am referring to any inconsistencies between what you -testified today and the interview we had this morning? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you provided, or had--or did you provide in that -interview this morning any material as to which you have not testified -to in this deposition? - -Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else at all that you would like to state -that has not been said in one way or another by you? - -Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the only thing that I could add in any way, that I can -think of, would be that the--Mr. Ruby appeared to be normal on that day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then do you think you knew him well enough to be able to -judge whether he was normal or not? - -Mr. CLARDY. From his expressions or the way he talked led me to believe -that the man was normal, that he knew what he was doing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than that observation then? - -Mr. CLARDY. It wouldn't be anything that I could think of that I would -add. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right; if you do think of anything, I want to ask -you to please feel free to come forward and state it, because quite -frankly, a person will forget something, and if you do remember -anything, don't hesitate to come forward with it, even though you might -say to yourself, "Well, I have already said there is nothing more, and -now I am coming back to add something." I ask you not to feel that -way, but on the other hand, to feel free to come forward, because the -Commission wants to know all the facts, and we want to get the facts, -even though you may not recollect them until after this deposition is -over. I trust you will do that? - -Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, thank you very much. I want to thank you -personally and on behalf of the Commission for your assistance. Thank -you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN - -The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 8 p.m., on March 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record, first of all, introduce -myself. As you probably heard I am Burt Griffin. I am a member of the -advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's -Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. -Now, this Commission was set up under an Executive order of President -Johnson, dated November 29, 1963, called Executive Order No. 11130. -Also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. We have adopted a -number of rules and so forth which I will explain to you a little bit -beforehand, pursuant to all these resolutions, I have been authorized -by the General Counsel to take the deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean, who -is right here. - -I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of the inquiry -that we are going into here. As the title of the Commission would -indicate, - -VOICE. I hate to interrupt, but---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As I say, I want to tell you a little bit about the scope -of this inquiry that we are going to go into. We have been authorized -to inquire into and evaluate and report to the President on all the -facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and all the -facts surrounding the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Calling you, Sergeant Dean, we are particularly interested in the facts -that surround the death of Oswald, although we don't mean to preclude -any other information that you may have which may pertain to the whole -area in which we are going. There has been a written request made to -Chief Curry, by the general counsel of our Commission staff, asking -that you appear here some time during this particular week. Now, this -is not quite in full keeping with the rules that have been set forth by -the Commission. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to -a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. This is -going to be sworn testimony. The rules also provide, however, that you -may waive this notice. I want to ask you right now, Sergeant Dean, if -you are willing to waive the written 3-day notice which you can require -us to give you? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes. I will waive it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, I also want to tell you that you are entitled, -under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present, if you -want, and I notice you are not here today with an attorney, and I -presume that is your desire, but do you? - -Mr. DEAN. I will waive that, also. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. DEAN. I do. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name? - -Mr. DEAN. Patrick Trevore Dean. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. DEAN. 2822 Nicholson, Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? - -Mr. DEAN. Police Department. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. DEAN. 11 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you hold any particular rank in the department? - -Mr. DEAN. I am a sergeant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a sergeant? - -Mr. DEAN. 6 years. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What section were you assigned to in the police department? - -Mr. DEAN. Patrol division. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That was on November 22, 23, and 24? - -Mr. DEAN. That's correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, it's my understanding that you were not on duty on -either November 22 or 23? - -Mr. DEAN. That's correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these your regular off duty days? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come to work on Sunday, November 24? - -Mr. DEAN. At 7 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you came to work, had you heard -anything about the proposed move of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; well, before I came to work, no, sir; I hadn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you came to work did you know that Oswald was going -to be moved that day? - -Mr. DEAN. Just rumored that some time during the day that he would be -moved. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard that? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, rumors in around city hall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been around the city hall on the 23d? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the 22d? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where then did you hear these rumors? - -Mr. DEAN. I had just come into town just about the time the President -landed on Friday. I had been out to south Texas deer hunting, and that -day, I, of course, listened to all the news about the assassination, -and also the next day, on the 23d, and then on the 24th at 7 o'clock is -when I reported for duty. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you indicated to me, though, that you had heard -rumors around the police station? - -Mr. DEAN. This was on the 24th. They had said that sometime during -the day that Oswald would be moved. Now, who they are would be in the -captain's office, around in the captain's office and in my office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Referring to that period before you came on duty, had you -heard any rumors then? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you arrived you didn't have any idea that Oswald -was going to be moved that day? - -Mr. DEAN. Repeat it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived at 7 o'clock Sunday morning---- - -Mr. DEAN. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't have any idea Oswald was going to be moved that -day? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Did you drive down to work that day? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked your car? - -Mr. DEAN. That being Sunday, I believe I parked in the 2100 block of -Jackson Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how you entered the police department -building? - -Mr. DEAN. On the Commerce Street side going to the basement. Not into -the parking area where the incident occurred, but going into the police -and courts building from Commerce Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you entered at 7 o'clock--I know it's difficult to -pick out what you saw at one time and what you saw at another time. Did -you see any TV cables---- - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Strung through that entrance? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; numerous television cables and cameras. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think back as best you can and tell us, as you -walked in from Commerce Street, you know, you come down the steps---- - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to open the door? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And that will take you into the hallway? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That leads to the records room. Now, as you got into that -area there where you open up the door and so forth, did you see any TV -cables strung through that doorway? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe there was a lot of TV cable down at the -end of the hall there, toward the jail office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, talking now about right up at the---- - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any TV cables come through that Commerce Street -entrance? - -Mr. DEAN. I don't recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got inside? - -Mr. DEAN. I went immediately to the basement, changed clothes into my -uniform and then went to the second floor, which is patrol captain's -office, where I report for duty. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you report to there? - -Mr. DEAN. Captain Talbert. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a conversation with Talbert at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. Nothing specific; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Talbert give you an assignment at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Talbert talk to you in anyway about the movement of -Oswald at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you learn somewhere after you arrived at work -that someone had made a telephone call in connection with the movement -of Oswald, threatening Oswald's life? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes; did I learn of a telephone call? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. I heard Captain Frazier, I believe it was, talking to Captain -Talbert, and in my presence, and several others. I don't remember which -ones, sergeants and a lieutenant or so, that I believe it was Sheriff -Decker called during the night and asked that Oswald be moved during -the night sometime. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this conversation take place; how soon after you -came to work? - -Mr. DEAN. It was some time--probably it would have been a little before -7 o'clock, because we meet downstairs at 7 o'clock sharp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. DEAN. In the detail room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So this would have been almost within a few minutes of the -time that you had walked in? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were Talbert and Frazier--and who else was present -during the conversation? - -Mr. DEAN. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was there, myself and Sergeant -Putnam might have been there. Several other sergeants. See, this is the -change time and all of his supervisors, Captain Frazier's and Captain -Talbert's, the ones that are working that day, they will generally be -in the office at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where we were? - -(The record was here read by the reporter.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other things that were said? Try to -think about what these people said when this topic was brought up. - -Mr. DEAN. Captain Frazier said something to the effect that he had -called Captain Fritz when Sheriff Decker called to request the movement -of Oswald, and Captain Fritz stated that he didn't think that Chief -Curry wanted him moved during the night, that it was--he would be moved -some time this day, that day, rather than in the night. It would be -this day. That's where I got it that he was to be moved on the 24th. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I take it that this was sort of changing of the -guard at this point, and Frazier was going off duty and he was sort of -passing on the word to Talbert? - -Mr. DEAN. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Talbert say in response to that information? - -Mr. DEAN. I don't remember. The thing that I got, or impression that -I got, was that they were just waiting for Chief Curry to say to -move him, until they had proper authorization to move him, from our -department rather than from the sheriff. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Rio Pierce present at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. I think that he was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is my understanding of this situation that you -had there at that time is Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce and the -sergeants that were all under them, kind of a general briefing? - -Mr. DEAN. That's correct. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Talbert then discuss this matter with you people -who were on his shift? - -Mr. DEAN. Not at this time. We went back downstairs to the basement -to the whole detail. This is to assign the patrolmen out on their -tour of duty, to brief them of the new orders, if there had been any, -and generally to get the men out in the field in the squad cars. This -happens at 7 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you send all the men out that you normally would -send out? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; with some few that we would use, the ones of which -I can't recall. I imagine it would have been equivalent to three or -four men that we would have kept in the city hall itself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time did you have any thought of how you would -assemble the necessary men to handle the transfer? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had this initial meeting with Talbert, what -did you do? - -Mr. DEAN. Now, you are referring to after the detail? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After you assigned these men, and what you called the -general orders? - -Mr. DEAN. We went back to the second floor, back to Captain Talbert's -office, which is the general offices for the patrol division. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened up there? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't remember anything specific until about--I, -myself, went to the third floor to familiarize myself with the -happenings, about the news cameramen and just to get an idea of what -was going on and who was to be present, such as that, because I had -been off. This was my first day back since--in a week, in fact. I had -been on a few days vacation to go hunting. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you went up to the third floor, did you have -any idea as to what your general responsibilities were going to be for -the day? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; not at that time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think I am misleading you. First of all, you have some -general responsibility, standard responsibilities that you have every -day? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those particular responsibilities? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I am assigned to a zone area that has a group of 6 -squads that work for me, equivalent to 15 men. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What zone is that? - -Mr. DEAN. No. 110. It's in the eastern portion of Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the Love Field area? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this is the--Love Field area is north Dallas. I am -in the eastern portion of Dallas. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And do you normally handle most of your duties from -right within the police station? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir: I have various paperwork to do in the office at -times. Generally I am out in the car, answering calls with the squads, -or when they need advice, supervision, well, I generally answer their -calls. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you met with Talbert the second time -upon the second floor, did you have any idea at that time that your -duties would be any different on Sunday than they were on any other -date? - -Mr. DEAN. I assumed that I would probably confine myself to the city -hall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to make that assumption? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, because of my seniority. It was just assumed that they -would want me there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so you went up to the third floor then? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you talk to and who did you see up there on -the third floor? - -Mr. DEAN. No one in particular. I just went up to see what was going -on on the third floor. This is the first time I had been to the third -floor. There were numerous cameras there, lot of cables. Just as you -get off the elevator there was a lot of cameras. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you were up on the third -floor? - -Mr. DEAN. Probably 8 o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up to the third floor again during the morning; -that is between that time and the time that Oswald was shot, did you -have occasion to go back to the third floor? - -Mr. DEAN. I believe I did, but for no specific purpose. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can separate out the different times that you -might have been up there, I want to know as best you recall whether -there were news people up there on the third floor when you went up -this first time, around--what did you say, 8 o'clock? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes. Were there news people up there? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see newspaper people up there at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether the TV cameras were manned at that -time? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether these people seemed to be operating -the cameras, shooting footage or did they seem to be in any sort of -operation? - -Mr. DEAN. They did have a monitor, small monitor set that they had the -cameras on. However, they weren't broadcasting at the time. They might -have been taping. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any other people that you thought were newsmen -up there, other than those manning the cameras? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Pressmen. Newspaper people, none of which I can -recall that I knew myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What's your best estimate of the number of news people -that were up there at about 8 o'clock? - -Mr. DEAN. Twenty-five, possibly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this create to you what appeared to be a crowded -condition? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain up there on the third floor? - -Mr. DEAN. Oh, maybe 10 or 15 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall if you went into the homicide bureau? - -Mr. DEAN. Sometime during that morning I did step into the homicide -bureau. However, I don't know who I talked to. And then there wasn't -any specific reason that I did go in there. I just stepped in. The -hall was very crowded. It might have been just that I was close to the -homicide office and I stepped in there to get out of the crowd, because -it was the least congested. There were no newsmen or pressmen in there, -no cameras. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell, when you were up there at about 8 -o'clock, what the general impression seemed to be as to when Oswald -would be moved? - -Mr. DEAN. The impression I got, there was anticipation from the newsmen -that--and the hopes of the newsmen, that he would probably be moved -that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But as to how early in the day, did you get any idea of -what they were thinking of? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. This was at anytime. This was the impression I got, -at anytime he could be moved. They were ready to start shooting, or go -live television, I am sure, at anytime, at a moment's notice. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they ask you any particular questions? - -Mr. DEAN. None specific; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they attempt to approach you or shout things at you? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other bureaus you went in on the third -floor? - -Mr. DEAN. That was all. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you go from the third floor? - -Mr. DEAN. Went back down to the second floor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you see down there? - -Mr. DEAN. Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation you had with them? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, general conversation that morning was when possibly -Oswald might be moved. Of course, I was waiting for instructions as to -what to do when he was moved. I received my first instructions about 9 -o'clock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you receive those instructions from? - -Mr. DEAN. From Lieutenant Pierce. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know who Lieutenant Pierce received his -instructions from? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Pierce tell you? - -Mr. DEAN. His instructions were for me to take a group of men and--or -whatever men I needed, and thoroughly search the garage portion of the -basement, to vacate it and then thoroughly search it. I---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--go ahead. - -Mr. DEAN. I took about 13 reserve officers that were waiting in the -assembly room, which is on the ground floor, the basement floor, along -with Sergeant Putnam, Officer L. E. Jez, and A. R. Brock, and these 13 -reserves that were in the detail room at that time, names of which I -don't know. They were commanded by Captain Arnett. I do know this. And -Captain Arnett assisted in the search, too. We vacated the basement of -all people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Are you talking about just the garage area or -the entire basement? - -Mr. DEAN. The garage area. And I assigned Officer R. E. Vaughn to the -entrance ramp, which is entering on Main Street, Officer R. C. Nelson -to the doorway coming from the police and court building and into the -basement, and Officer B. G. Patterson the Commerce Street ramp, which -is the exit, and I assigned one reserve officer to the southern portion -of the basement, to the stairways that lead into the subbasement or the -machine room. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the regular officers that you assigned were Vaughn, -Nelson, and Patterson, is that right? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of those men members of your platoon? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; all of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they happen to be in the building at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. I believe they were the officers that we retained that -morning to assist us for whatever might have to be done in the morning, -or during the day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they normally have assignments in patrol cars some -place? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; all of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made the decision to keep those men in? - -Mr. DEAN. I would imagine Lieutenant Pierce. To retain them at city -hall during the day? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. I imagine Lieutenant Pierce did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I ask you directly, you did not, if I understand -correctly, you did not make that decision? - -Mr. DEAN. To retain them at the city hall? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; they were there and I utilized them for this purpose. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there other people who were retained at city -hall besides those three men in the platoon? - -Mr. DEAN. There were other men that were called back in from patrol -duty to supplement what men we had at the central headquarters. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But these were the only three men who actually stayed back -and never went out to the field at all? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason that you can think of why those -three men should have been kept there? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; other than just assignment, routine assignment. I -mean it could have been someone else as well as it was them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you assigned reserve officers--somebody, rather---- - -Mr. DEAN. To the southern portion of the basement? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put a guard on that door, or in that area? - -Mr. DEAN. For security reasons. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any reason to think that it would be possible -to get through from the subbasement? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I knew that there were doors going into the subbasement -from--however, I checked them and they were locked, but still there -was a possibility, since you did have doors there, or ingress from the -street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where the ingress from the street to the -subbasement is? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; as you enter on Commerce Street, going down into -the basement, there is a door on the southern side of the--just before -you go into the main part of the basement, that leads down. It's the -porters' quarters, that leads down to the porters' quarters. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any other entrance into that subbasement? - -Mr. DEAN. The elevators in the new city hall is the only ones that you -can get in, is the only place, other than the ramp--we had all places -covered. In fact, I assigned---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am talking about the subbasement now. - -Mr. DEAN. The garage portion? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right. - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; there is no other place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that door that comes into Commerce Street? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; well, there is a door that was locked, another door -that's used as a--oh, I think they sometimes throw materials--it's not -even an elevator. It appears to be an elevator door, if you open it up, -it's a straight drop into the subbasement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that? - -Mr. DEAN. I had the maintenance man open this door for me. He did and -I could see that you couldn't--or it would be hard for a man to climb -up a straight wall to open these doors. You couldn't open them from the -inside or the subbasement side of the door. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a clear recollection as to whether or not -any TV or radio or other wires came through the subbasement door up to -the basement area in the garage? - -Mr. DEAN. There were none coming out. From the subbasement into the -garage area? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. There were not. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any TV or radio or other wires coming into the -garage area other than through the ramps? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you give these people you stationed in the -garage area, Nelson and the reserve officer and--who was it that you -stationed--did you station somebody by the elevators at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; Brock. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Those three men, did you give them any specific -instructions? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those instructions? - -Mr. DEAN. That they were to let no one in other than--well, first -that they were to let no one in until we had completely searched the -basement, and then that we would notify them after we had completed the -search, and then they were to let no one in except authorized pressmen, -properly identified pressmen, newsmen, or policemen. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some reason to think that those people might -be coming through the entranceways that they were guarding? - -Mr. DEAN. Did I have some reason to think this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. It was strictly security. I was doing exactly what my orders -were, to keep all people out. As far as any reason other than strictly -security; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am suggesting, really, is that you could have given -them a blanket order, "Don't let anybody in there"? - -Mr. DEAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any reason why you didn't give them that blanket order? -Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were we? - -(The record was here read by the reporter.) - -Mr. DEAN. To just let no one in? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. Well, just a moment. Let me--I knew that the pressmen--I -am wondering where I--it was just generally assumed to me that the -pressmen would be allowed to witness the movement of Oswald. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But from these doors, now, the men that were on the ramps, -of course, you would expect an influxion of people down those ramps, -but from those interior doors in the garage, I am wondering what -expectation you could have that anybody would be coming through there? -I am not asking this question to try to trip you up or anything like -that, but I am just wondering if you thought about this? You might -think of something that you had in mind that might shed some light on -this. - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; the only thing, I was searching the basement and to -do this I had to clear the basement to satisfy myself that there was -no one in the basement, and after I was satisfied with this, then the -press and the police officers could come back in the basement, if they -were properly identified. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you instructed Nelson and Brock and the reserve -officer, were Vaughn and Patterson also present? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, they were guarding the ramps? - -Mr. DEAN. Right. Patterson, Vaughn were guarding the ramps, and -that was my instructions to them, to keep everyone out until we had -completed the search. Then after we had completed the search, to let -no one in other than properly identified pressmen or policemen, and to -not to leave those assignments unless they were relieved by myself or -Sergeant Putnam. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you give us some idea of how many cars there were -in the garage at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. Some, I would say 25 or 30. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these cars eventually moved out at any time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; some few of them were district squad cars that had -come in with prisoners, and then, of course, they left, but as a mass -movement to move the cars out, we didn't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who checked the stairway door in the garage that leads up -into the municipal building? - -Mr. DEAN. The stairway door? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. I don't know of any door that leads up into the--the stairway? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a stairway---- - -Mr. DEAN. That goes down into the subbasement? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, over where the elevators are---- - -Mr. DEAN. Oh. Oh, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You know what I am talking about? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who checked that door? - -Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Putnam checked it once and I checked it once and it -was locked. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time you checked it that even though -the door was locked from the outside, it could be opened from the -inside? - -Mr. DEAN. [No response.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state this again. Even though the door would be -locked from the garage side, that from the stairway side it would be -unlocked; were you aware of that? - -Mr. DEAN. I believe we asked the maintenance man about this, and I -believe he locked it so as it couldn't be unlocked from either side -unless they had a key. I believe Sergeant Putnam called this to the -maintenance man's attention, and I recall being there at the time they -were discussing it, and I think at that time the maintenance man locked -the door so it couldn't be unlocked from either side other than with a -key. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the name of this maintenance man? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't know. I didn't know his name to start with. -However, I did know he was the maintenance man, by sight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get ahold of this maintenance man? - -Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Putnam, I believe, had gotten--or had thought about -this and asked him, or he had gotten in touch with him some way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this at the same time you had the 13 men in the garage -searching, or at some later time? - -Mr. DEAN. This was during the search. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know where this maintenance man was located---- - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When Putnam found him? - -Mr. DEAN. I don't. I do know I sent for him one time, or had an officer -to go page the maintenance man to meet me, to have him unlock this door -in question, that I thought--or I wanted it opened so I could see in -it, to see if it was a service elevator or what. I had never seen that -door opened before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you make any inquiries about the passenger -elevators? - -Mr. DEAN. Coming into the garage portion? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. Yes; they were operating at the time. I think there were two -colored boys that were operating the elevators, and we told them not to -come down to the basement for any reason. And we posted Brock there at -the elevators. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so that we understand what we are talking about, -my recollection is that there is another elevator that's a service -elevator also? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. This was the one that was operating, primarily, -that morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can help things out here somewhat. This is a -diagram of the basement area, and I am going to mark this "Dallas, -Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5007." - -Now, making reference, Sergeant, to this particular diagram here, at -the time you searched the garage, it is my understanding that what's -marked on here as elevators Nos. 1 and 2 were operable, that there -were some colored boys in there, or somebody who was operating those -elevators? - -Mr. DEAN. No. I believe those were not in operation, Nos. 1 and 2. The -service elevator was, I do know. There was the parking attendant, a -colored boy, and he sits here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a mark on that diagram there, make it an -X? - -Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you want to label that parking attendant, or -whatever you think is appropriate? - -Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating], this is a colored boy that usually -sits here. He has a bench there he sits on until he is needed. We made -him leave. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Made him leave? - -Mr. DEAN. In fact, I think he was relieved from duty that day, because -I took him out of the Commerce Street ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And was there somebody operating that service elevator? - -Mr. DEAN. The service elevator? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were in that service elevator? - -Mr. DEAN. There was one. When I said two persons I was thinking of -the elevator operator, which is also a colored boy, and the parking -attendant. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to just put an X on the service elevator, to -indicate there was somebody in there? - -Mr. DEAN. All right, sir [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you want to place a mark at approximately the place -that you stationed the men who were guarding the entrance to the -subbasement, this reserve officer? - -Mr. DEAN. Oh, the subbasement. Let me see--[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain this diagram to you. This is the basement, -this dotted line here is the upstairs [indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. Oh, I see. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This actually goes under the sidewalk here [indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. This is where the reserve officer was [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you station Brock? - -Mr. DEAN. Put him in a position that he could see this door here and -also these three elevators [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who else did you station in the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. No one--well, Nelson was--let's see, Nelson was here -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you place Vaughn and where did you place -Patterson? - -Mr. DEAN. Is this the exit proper, door, here to the--[indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. This would be the top of the ramp here [indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you want to sign this down here and mark -on there the time, sign it there and then in the middle of the diagram, -so it doesn't confuse things here, put the--well, sign it over under -here. If we put time in here, somebody may think that was the time -that you made the mark on here. Then if you would label this status of -basement, whenever it was that--[indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. During the search? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Very good. Now, you have marked on here -approximately 9:15 to 9:30 a.m. I am not going to ask you what you -found there and so forth, because you have made a full statement on -it. We know, for example, you found a rifle in the back of one of the -police cars? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the search was completed, where did you go? - -Mr. DEAN. The pressmen were allowed to come back in. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, where had they been removed to? - -Mr. DEAN. Into the police court building, or the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By the records room? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And they were allowed back in the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of the number of policemen that -came back into the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, of course, it increased as the time went on, so it -would be hard to---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspapermen did you have to clear out of the -basement at 9:15, approximately? - -Mr. DEAN. Oh, approximately 15 or 20, maybe 25. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you went down into the basement, before the -search, were there any TV cameras down there? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe there was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to indicate on the map here where it is that -you think the TV cameras, or camera was placed? - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there was a TV camera at this location -[indicating]? - -Mr. DEAN. I believe there was. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am referring, so that the record will reflect this, -to a TV camera that's in the entranceway from the ramp, towards the -jail office, and it's on the Commerce Street wall, along the Commerce -Street wall. Did you move that TV camera at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. Moved the operators away from it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after that, after you completed the -search and let the people back into the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. Let me think. I believe I stayed in the basement area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you completed the search, had you heard -anything about the time that Oswald would be moved? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything about the route that he would be -moved by? - -Mr. DEAN. At the time---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. That you completed the search? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes. About, somewhere around 9:45, Captain Talbert sent me -a group of regular officers that had been called in off of patrol -district. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can I help you? - -Mr. DEAN. My report [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes [indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. I didn't have in my original report, I do have in my original -notes in my locker, as to some traffic assignments that I made. This -was about 9:45. These men were sent to me by Captain Talbert. I briefed -them about here in the basement, away from everyone, to let no one know -the route. This is when Captain Talbert advised me that the route would -be to leave the Commerce Street side, go to the expressway, north to -Main [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Pearl Expressway or Central Expressway? - -Mr. DEAN. Central Expressway. And then west on Main to the county -courthouse, or the sheriff's office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit -here. Up to this point had you heard anything about a proposed route -that would have gone from Central Expressway and turned at Elm Street, -rather than Main Street? - -Mr. DEAN. I was thinking it was--I knew that they changed it, after -I made my assignment I had to change them again, because they said -they wasn't going to use it. It was either Main Street that they -weren't going to use, they were going to Commerce--however, I think -you are right. I think originally my assignments were made at the -intersections--not Commerce, but Elm, and then they changed the--they -being Captain Talbert, and told me that they would not use Elm, that -they would use Main Street. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw a big circle in this area where you -instructed these men, to show roughly what area the men covered, and -would you put an appropriate note on there as to what happened and what -time? - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many men did you give instructions to? - -Mr. DEAN. 13, 15. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you just put that number there? - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did those men then take police vehicles and go to -their appointed spots? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Immediately to their squad cars that had been -parked outside and then--they reported into the basement to me for -these assignments, they went immediately to these assignments, and -these assignments were made at various intersections along the proposed -route that Oswald would be transferred. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Brock in the basement at the time that you gave -that assignment? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. However, he was still at the elevators then. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Patterson and Vaughn? - -Mr. DEAN. They were at their stations. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. After you made those assignments, what did you do? - -Mr. DEAN. I moved back to the area, when you come out of the jail -office, to the ramp, and this is when Lieutenant Pierce came up to me -and appeared to be in a hurry--well now, the armored car had already -backed into the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How much before---- - -Mr. DEAN. This armored car had backed into the ramp as I was standing -here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's place these times a little bit. How long was it -between the time that you instructed these 13 to 15 men to go on their -posts and the time that the armored car arrived? - -Mr. DEAN. Oh, 10 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't put down here where you made that note, about 10 -minutes before armored car arrived? - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, how much time elapsed between the time you made -assignment to these men and the time that you searched the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. Fifteen or twenty minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Why don't you put down here then 15 or 20 minutes -before assignment to Elm Street? - -Mr. DEAN. Elm Street? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I understand about the time that the -armored car arrived, or was it shortly after the armored car arrived, -you had a conversation with Lieutenant Pierce? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How much after the armored car arrived would you say that -conversation occurred? - -Mr. DEAN. Five minutes after the armored car arrived. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We don't need to mark that. And this conversation with -Lieutenant Pierce occurred in the entranceway, off the Main Street ramp -toward the jail office? - -Mr. DEAN. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there when you talked with Pierce? - -Mr. DEAN. There were several people around, but they didn't hear his -instructions to me, I am sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did Pierce tell you? - -Mr. DEAN. He said for me to go to the armored car, to the rear of the -armored car, and to get him two men to go with him, and he said, "Now." -Sergeant Putnam was maybe 15 or 20 feet from me, and I instructed him -to get an unassigned man immediately and to go with Lieutenant Pierce, -and Lieutenant Pierce, by this time, of course, he was going to get his -car, or walking over to his car. Sergeant Putnam got--told Sergeant -Maxey to go with him, and those three got into Lieutenant Pierce's car -with Lieutenant Pierce driving, and I went to the rear of the armored -car that had backed in, which was some, I guess 30 feet, 30 to 35 -feet from where the shooting was. This armored car backed down, and I -imagine it would probably be around 30 to 35 feet. As soon as I got to -the armored car I turned around and looked back, and this is when I -saw Lieutenant Pierce in this plain black car trying to get past the -newsmen and to go out the wrong way. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. DEAN. Right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is my understanding correct that from the time that -you placed your guards in the basement and then began the search, until -Pierce's car drove up the ramp, you did not leave the basement area? - -Mr. DEAN. That's right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you saw Pierce's car go out of the--move out of -the garage area, who was in that car? - -Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Maxey and Sergeant Putnam, Lieutenant Pierce was -driving it. I do recall that Sergeant Putnam had to get out of the car -and tell some people to move out of the way so they could drive out. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did he get out of the car? - -Mr. DEAN. Just as they were turning from the basement to go up the -ramp, about this location [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him get back in the car? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him get back in the car? - -Mr. DEAN. Same place. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. So when he drove through this next line of newsmen, when -the car went through this next line of newsmen, is it your recollection -that Sergeant Putnam was back in the car, or did he follow the car up -ahead and clear these others? - -Mr. DEAN. I believe he walked on up for a few steps, not too far, and -then when he did see that the way was clear he got into the car then, -but he did get out of the car to clear the way for the car to move out -of the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, did you watch him go out of the ramp up there? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see what he did when he got to the top of the -ramp? - -Mr. DEAN. I couldn't see to the top of the ramp. It's obscured, from -where I was. I was halfway up this ramp and I couldn't see to the top -of the ramp. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch him, though, go up until you lost sight of -him? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were looking toward -Putnam's car, were you able to see the people behind the car in this -particular--across the Main Street ramp? - -Mr. DEAN. Just as a group. I mean as a group of people. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that group that you recognized? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any police officers that you recognized there, -other than Putnam? - -Mr. DEAN. None that I paid any attention to. I mean if I had noticed -them I could have probably seen someone that I recognized. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, of course, you have known Jack Ruby for 4 or 5 -years? - -Mr. DEAN. I have known Jack Ruby since, I believe 19--the early part of -1960 or the early part of 1961. It was the time that I came downtown -from Oak Cliff, as a sergeant. I met him. Now, the record, or your -report from the FBI says that I had known him since 1959, which is -erroneous. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. We will do that at the end of the deposition, -because I want to get that straightened out. - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew Ruby well enough so that you would recognize -him on sight? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Ruby in that area there? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you lost sight of Pierce's car going up the -ramp, what did you do? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, my attention was focused to this point, because this -was a tense time, and I was, of course, watching the exit here from the -jail office [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you watch how the security developed along -in here; what the officers did to maintain security along here -[indicating]? - -Mr. DEAN. I knew that they had just lined up. However, I didn't pay any -attention particularly to this at the time. I knew that Oswald was, in -all probability, going to be brought out pretty soon. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked toward the Main Street ramp and saw the -newsmen re-form along there, can you recall how deep this line of -newsmen was? Do you understand what I mean by how deep? - -Mr. DEAN. You mean lengthwise? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. It was probably going to about somewhere along here. They -were all trying to be within view of the----[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there just a single line along there or were there -four of five or six different lines; you know, four or five behind each -other, or how many? - -Mr. DEAN. I know there was a double line and possibly some were -standing behind them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you given any instructions prior to the time that -Rio Pierce's car went up the ramp, to any men as to how to maintain -security along this line of newsmen? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I hadn't. The majority of those, I think, were -detectives or plainclothesmen. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if anybody had responsibility for giving -instructions to that group? - -Mr. DEAN. To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone. I am sure that they -did, but I don't know who did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions from anybody concerning how -to maintain security along the path from the jail office door to the -car that Oswald would be loaded into? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at one time I know that there were several cameras -set up in this area, and Chief Batchelor told them that they would have -to leave this area and move to the basement area. I was present during -Chief Batchelor's--or when he told these TV men to move out of that -area, inside the jail office, that---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. TV cameras inside the jail office? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and lights set up. This was, I believe, before the -search or shortly after the search. I am thinking it was shortly after -the search, that these men were told to move out of this area and move -their cameras and equipment out into the garage portion of the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, sergeant, did there come a time when you learned that -the route was being changed? - -Mr. DEAN. The route to the sheriff's office? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. This was--I believe I received both of those instructions -when I assigned those men. I had already assigned--well, I do know that -I had already assigned all these men along this traffic route, and then -it had been changed. Captain Talbert said, "No; they are not going to -use Main Street--or Elm Street. They are going to use Main," I believe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn this after you had already sent the men out? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything that makes you sure about that? - -Mr. DEAN. Because I reassigned them, at the same time I briefed them, -and made these other assignments. I learned that the route had been -changed, and I reassigned them, at the same time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you assign a man to the corner of Main and Pearl -Expressway? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes; I know that I did, but I can't recall who it was. I have -that information in my locker, my original assignments. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a lot of notes in your locker, or you -have some notes? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; at a later time I will bring those to you, if you -like. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I would very much appreciate it. Do you want to make a -note of that? If you send them over to us tomorrow, I would appreciate -that very much. - -Mr. DEAN. Tomorrow? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and we don't need the originals if you want to---- - -Mr. DEAN. No; you can have them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you saw Pierce's car -go up the ramp? - -Mr. DEAN. I stood at the rear of the armored car and watched--my -attention was focused to this point here, to the exit from the jail -office, or the corridor here. I noticed that these two plain cars had -pulled up behind, or in my same direction, and I assumed that these two -cars would be loaded with officers that would follow the armored car. -However, they hadn't loaded. They were pulling into position here and -had gotten into position when all the confusion started [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt your train of thought here. In looking at -this map, it occurs to me that we don't have Nelson marked on this map -[indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. Nelson is here [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, okay; now, do you know if Brock was pulled off this -station at anytime prior to the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; he was told to stay there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't know of your own knowledge---- - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whether he was there at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, as the two police cars moved into position -on the Commerce Street ramp behind the armored car, what happened, what -did you see happen and what did you do? - -Mr. DEAN. I heard someone say, "Here he comes, they are bringing him -out." Of course, you could hear voices, loud voices, or excitement, -and then I saw a man just dart in--this was during all the confusion, -before the shooting, but I do recall seeing a man dart out. I couldn't -tell who he was. It was that fast [witness snaps fingers]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he seem to dart from? - -Mr. DEAN. From the rail over here. The side--just dart out from a -group of people that were standing against the rail facing the exit -[indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you mark there with an "X" and a circle -around it, approximately where he was and how close he was to this -railing? Do you think he was right on the railing or [indicating]---- - -Mr. DEAN. Well, the railing--you have a curb there and then I don't -recall how wide that curb is, but the railing, you can lean against -standing on the ramp itself [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; how far would you say he was from that railing? - -Mr. DEAN. I would say he was up against the railing. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is that the man that shot Oswald? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a circle and an "X" down there and write -Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where was "Blackie" Harrison standing? - -Mr. DEAN. I didn't recognize--or didn't notice "Blackie" Harrison. I do -recall now and I know where he was standing, next to him, from films I -have seen since then. However, I didn't even know he was there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as I understand from your statement, and interrupt -me if I am incorrect, when you saw Ruby shoot Oswald, you moved toward -the struggle and then Ruby was taken into the jail office, and did you -follow them on in? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I ran immediately, jumped over these cars, or one -of them, jumped over the hood of it, over the top of it, and they were -dragging--Ruby and several detectives that were subduing him were about -at the door, or [indicating]---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I had just as soon not have you mark at this point. - -Mr. DEAN. Okay. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand why you want to, but---- - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear, between the time that you saw Ruby move -toward Oswald and the time that you reached him, did you hear anything -said? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you reached Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I ran to assist, whatever I could do, or assist the -officers, not knowing exactly what had happened--or I knew that there -had been a shooting. However, they had enough men that were subduing -him, and I asked the question, when they had him on the floor inside -the jail office, "Who in the world is it?" And---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Couldn't you tell by looking at him? - -Mr. DEAN. No; at the time I couldn't see him because there were so -many over him. And they were--well, his face was hidden from me by the -amount of officers that were around him. I said, "Who in the world is -it?" And evidently I was talking loud over all the other voices, and -evidently Ruby heard me and said, "I am Jack Ruby. You all know me." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with Jack Ruby there in the -jail office? - -Mr. DEAN. I immediately walked around to where Oswald was laying. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain there where Oswald was? - -Mr. DEAN. Oh, maybe--less than a minute. I saw that the doctor--there -was an emergency doctor working on him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from there? - -Mr. DEAN. I went back out to the basement, out to where the shooting -happened. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do out there? - -Mr. DEAN. I was trying to keep all the people in. I heard Captain -Talbert say, "Don't let anyone out." And I was echoing his instructions -to the men on the ramp, to not let anyone in or out, no one. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time while you were down there in -the basement that you were interviewed by TV men? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; that was after I had--just some few minutes, I -don't know, that several newsmen had--or did interview me, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which TV station that was? - -Mr. DEAN. Tom Pettit is with NBC, I believe. I did know one of the -local men, Bob Huffaker. He is with KRLD-TV. But there were several. I -don't know---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there was also a time, undoubtedly, that -you were interviewed, or somebody quoted you in the newspapers, and -there was a great to-do about this, as I understand, in the police -department. Somebody claimed---- - -Mr. DEAN. Misquoted me, yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that at this particular TV interview; was that -when you made the statement? - -Mr. DEAN. The newspaper article that appeared, the news or the writer -of that story told me that he wrote that story from my initial -interview that was given shortly after the shooting, yes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall talking with that man down there? - -Mr. DEAN. The man that wrote the---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I wouldn't know him by sight now. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever seeing that man? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had this TV interview, what did you do? - -Mr. DEAN. I went to the third floor. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go on the third floor? - -Mr. DEAN. Just as I got off of the elevator Chief Curry approached me, -along with another man. He introduced him very quickly as Forrest V. -Sorrels, with the Secret Service, or head of the Secret Service here in -Dallas, gave me his keys to the outer door that has--or access to the -jail elevator, told me to take Mr. Sorrels to the fifth floor to talk -to Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you left the jail office---- - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went into the basement area and had the TV -interview and then went up to the third floor, did you talk with any of -the police officers who had been down there in the basement area? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in the jail office, before you came out, -did you talk to any of the officers who were there, who were in the -jail office; did you talk with them? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why were you going up to the third floor? - -Mr. DEAN. I was going to Captain Fritz' office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you going to do up there? - -Mr. DEAN. I was just going to see if Jack Ruby was in Captain Fritz' -office, or whether he was taken immediately to the jail. I didn't know -where he was taken to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you want to go up to see Jack Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. To see if they were--this was in my mind, to see if they were -going to go ahead and identify him, because I knew other pressmen and -other people were going to be asking me, since I had this interview, -and see if--did he want me to go ahead and identify him or do what I -did in the initial interview, say that this information will have to -come from Captain Fritz' office. It really wasn't significant. I knew -that I would be talked to at later times all during the day and pressed -for the identity of this man, and I wanted to ask them there did they -want us to release it or want them to keep it and release it themselves. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already told the newsmen? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I had already told the newsmen this. I didn't -identify the man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already told the newsmen that the man who shot -Oswald was Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I didn't. I didn't identify the man. They asked me -did I recognize this man. I said "Yes." And they asked me could I tell -them who he was, and I said I had rather not, and I did not identify -him as Ruby. I identified him as a businessman in the city of Dallas, -but I did tell them that I recognized the man by sight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got up on the third floor, where did you see -Chief Curry? - -Mr. DEAN. Just as I got off of the elevator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ask him to discuss this problem with you? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. He immediately introduced--said, "This is Mr. -Forrest V. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service in Dallas, and take my -keys and take him to the fifth floor to interview Ruby." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You got up to the fifth floor, who was with Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. Detective Archer, D. R. Archer, Detective T. D. McMillon and -Detective B. S. Clardy is the three, and that's the only three I can -recall standing there. I think that was all that was with him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a jailer there? - -Mr. DEAN. Not standing there necessarily by him. There, of course, are -jailers all over the floor, and you know, there were--not particularly -around him though. The only ones I can recall standing close to Ruby -was those three detectives. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What state of dress or undress was Ruby in at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. He was stripped to his shorts. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got up there? - -Mr. DEAN. I walked immediately to him. I heard--well, immediately -I told him, I said, "This is Mr. Forrest V. Sorrels"--started the -introduction, and Ruby stopped me and he said, "I know who he is. He is -with the FBI." Mr. Sorrels then informed him. He said, "No. I am not -with the FBI. I am with the Secret Service." And then he again told -him, "I want you to know that I am not with the FBI. I am with the -Secret Service." And so Ruby said something to the effect, "Well, I -knew that you were working for the Government." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby making any remark to Sorrels to the -effect, "Are you with the newspapermen"? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I recall most all of that conversation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what that conversation was. - -Mr. DEAN. After Sorrels had identified himself as a Secret Service man, -he said, "I want to ask you some questions." And then Ruby asked him, -"Is this for the magazines or press?" And he said, "No. It's for my -information, as an agent." And he said, "Okay. I will answer all your -questions." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with him, anything Sorrels -said about his acquaintanceship in the Jewish community? - -Mr. DEAN. Sorrels asked him first, I believe---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am not making myself clear. I am sorry. Did Sorrels -say anything to Ruby about Sorrels' acquaintanceship among the Jewish -merchants, that you recall? - -Mr. DEAN. No. I don't--seems like he said something, that he had--that -he knew some Jewish--I don't recall exactly what, but relative to what -you are asking, he did say something about he was acquainted with some -person that was a Jew, something to that effect. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with the name of a guy named Honest Joe? - -Mr. DEAN. Right. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you remember about that. - -Mr. DEAN. Well, he said, "Well, I know Honest Joe or"--In other words, -the only thing that I got out of that was that he knew Honest Joe. This -wasn't relative to what I wanted to find out from Ruby, and I just -disregarded this from my mind. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did this take place inside the jail cell? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. He was in the hallway or the corridor outside a jail -cell. He hadn't been placed in a cell. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were Archer, Clardy, and McMillon around during this -conversation? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I think they stood there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long would you say that Sorrels talked with Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. Oh, 10 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember anything that Sorrels learned from -Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what that was? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes. He asked him what possessed him to do it. Of course, -I have testified to all this in court. And he said that he was--had -been despondent over the assassination of the President, also Officer -Tippit, and that he was a very emotional man, and that out of grief for -both these people, was one of the motivations, and that he couldn't see -any reason for a long and lengthy trial, even though he believed in due -process of law. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk with Sorrels at all at that time about how he -got into the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I asked him--Sorrels didn't ask any questions -relative to that. I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Sorrels finished talking with Ruby did you -ask that question? - -Mr. DEAN. Immediately. After Mr. Sorrels said, "Okay. Thank you." And I -don't recall whether Mr. Sorrels stayed there or whether he walked off. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present when you asked Ruby that question? - -Mr. DEAN. I think McMillon and them were still there. I just really -didn't--I knew that I wasn't by myself with him. I knew that there was -someone there and I believe it was McMillon and Archer that had stayed -there. I am not sure. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you talk with Ruby about, after Sorrels -finished talking to him? - -Mr. DEAN. After Sorrels finished, I said, "Ruby, I want to ask you a -couple of questions myself." And he said, "All right." I said, "How did -you get in the basement?" And he said, "I walked in the Main Street -ramp." And he told me, he said, "I have just been to the Western Union -to mail a money order to Fort Worth." And he said, "I walked from the -Western Union to the ramp." And he said, "I saw Sam Pierce--" and he -referred to him as Sam Pierce--"drive out of the basement. At that -time, at the time the car drove out is when I walked in." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a Sam Pierce on the force? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. He is a lieutenant. He is here tonight. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. His name is also Rio Pierce? - -Mr. DEAN. Lt. Rio S. Pierce, yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he go by the name Sam? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he also go by the name Rio? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is one used---- - -Mr. DEAN. Just as much as the other. Depends on who met him under which -name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what else did he talk to you about at that -particular time? - -Mr. DEAN. After he answered that question, I said, "How long had you -been in the basement when Oswald came into your view?" And he said, "I -just walked in. I just walked to the bottom of the ramp when he came -out." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you talk to him about at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. That's all. I heard all of Sorrels' questions and I heard all -of Ruby's answers. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as the questioning of Sorrels is concerned, -did you testify to that at the Ruby trial? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you finished this conversation with Ruby about -how he got down into the basement, what did you do? - -Mr. DEAN. Caught the elevator back down to the basement and got my gun -that had been taken there by a patrolman. If I am not mistaken, I rode -down on the same elevator with Mr. Sorrels, and then I went back up to -the third floor to Chief Curry's office and took him his keys that he -had given me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the keys to? - -Mr. DEAN. They were--well, it was a keyring with a lot of keys on it, -but he had given me these to gain entrance to the door that's always -locked on the third floor of the jail elevator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then how long did you stay down there with Chief Curry? - -Mr. DEAN. Just long enough to give him his keys. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go after that? - -Mr. DEAN. [No response.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go back to homicide? - -Mr. DEAN. No; I didn't go back to homicide. I don't remember whether -I went back to the basement--I believe that I did, went back to the -basement to see how things were down there. And, of course, a great -number of people had left the basement, and I assume were en route or -were going to the Parkland Hospital to check on--since the focal point -had gone to Parkland Hospital, I assumed that's where all these people -had gone. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell Chief Curry what Ruby had told you? - -Mr. DEAN. At that time; no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do, now, after you went down to the first -floor, the basement, you say; what did you do then? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't remember exactly what I did. I did go to -Parkland Hospital and I got there before Oswald was pronounced dead, -which I think was at 1:07, wasn't it? Somewhere around 1 o'clock? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. Yes; anyhow, I stayed at Parkland Hospital and---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see out at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I talked to Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, and in fact, -I had taken her along with some--I assumed some Secret Service men, I -assumed they were Secret Service men that were with her when I started -talking to her. I went in with her into view the body, her and Marina -Oswald, to view the body of Lee. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did somebody assign you to go out to Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go out there? - -Mr. DEAN. To check on the condition of Oswald. I knew that--well, it -was just reaction for me to go out there, because I knew that I would -probably be needed out there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you check in with Captain Talbert before you went out? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I did check out with the dispatcher on the radio, -that I was en route to Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lieutenant Pierce, did you check out with him? - -Mr. DEAN. I think when I got to Parkland Hospital I called him and -advised him that I would be at Parkland until I notified him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got out to Parkland Hospital and before you saw -Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, did you talk with any police officers? - -Mr. DEAN. At Parkland? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I am sure that I talked to some. Nothing specific or no -orders given, no assignments or anything. I was, more than anything, -I was answering questions as to what happened in the basement, from -everyone, even policemen and everyone else. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you tell them about the conversation you had with -Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not? - -Mr. DEAN. I just didn't tell anyone about it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you find Marguerite Oswald? - -Mr. DEAN. She was waiting in a room just out of the emergency room -there. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what Secret Service agents were with her -at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wait with Marguerite in that room with the Secret -Service agents? - -Mr. DEAN. No. That's--shortly after I went in to where Marguerite and -Marina were, Marguerite wanted to see the body, and they tried to -explain to her that they really hadn't gotten him in shape to view yet. -He just came out of the operating room, and she said, well, she wanted -to see him then, and she more or less was directing her statements and -demands to me, since I was the only uniformed officer there, and said -that she would like to go in and see him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to go to Marguerite? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I was just standing outside the door there where they -said he was, and someone had pointed her out, and said that's the -mother and the wife. No particular reason. But I did, after she asked -to go in and see him, they said--the doctor said it would be all right -for them, and I did go in with them, when they went in to view the -body. During the time that we were in this room where Oswald's body was -Mrs. Oswald, the mother, turned to me and said that at this time she -wanted to make a statement to me in regard to the allegations against -her son, that she could--something to the effect that she could prove -that they were wrong, and about this time she was interrupted by one -of the nurses telling me that I was wanted on the phone. So I left and -didn't see---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had called you at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. Lieutenant Pierce. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he? - -Mr. DEAN. He was at central headquarters. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he have to say? - -Mr. DEAN. He asked me how long I thought I was going to be there and -I said, well, I was leaving now. And then I left and came back to the -city hall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked to Pierce on the telephone, did you -tell him about your conversation with Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you drove out to Parkland Hospital, did you drive out -alone? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When you drove back, did you drive back with anybody? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; by myself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got back to central police -headquarters? - -Mr. DEAN. I went to our office on the second floor, the patrol -captain's office. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And who was there? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't recall exactly. I know this was again getting -close to the change time. It was somewhere around 2 o'clock, and the -secretary told me that I had several phone calls waiting on me, and -one of--well, there were some long distance calls that had seen me on -television, and I didn't answer all of them. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Any phone calls from anybody you knew? - -Mr. DEAN. No; my wife had called. I mean there had just been a lot of -people calling. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you make any phone calls when you got that -message that you had calls? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at the time, about--the only phone call that I had -taken was the dispatcher called and--just about the time I walked -in, and said that I had a long distance call from--oh, Chicago or -somewhere, and they transferred it down there, and, of course, they -were asking who this man was, how did he get in, questions that -newsmen--it was from some radio station. I didn't---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago. And did you tell them? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do after that long distance telephone -call from Chicago? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, there was newsmen from KLIF came into the office, asked -would I give him a short interview, which I did. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were those people? - -Mr. DEAN. This man, it was Glen Duncan. I didn't know him before. I -hadn't seen him before. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you remember with him? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; he was by himself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that a tape-recorded interview? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; station KLIF. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did that interview last? - -Mr. DEAN. Gosh, I don't know. Maybe 4 or 5 minutes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever get a copy of that interview from them? - -Mr. DEAN. He sent me one, and it's at home somewhere. It didn't play on -my recorder and I didn't even try to play it since then. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you supply that to the Commission? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would make a note of that, I would appreciate it. - -Mr. DEAN. Any particular speed that you want this? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. No; and incidentally, if you would like it transcribed at -a speed that will play on your recorder, I am sure we would be happy to -do that for you, and just exchange tapes, since we are taking a tape -from you, we will give it back to you at a speed you can play. - -Mr. DEAN. Okay; all right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did this KLIF interview take place? - -Mr. DEAN. It was on the second floor there in the small room that was -unoccupied at the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that interview? - -Mr. DEAN. I stayed around the office. I don't remember anything -particularly that I did do. Again, answering questions of people coming -on. I think that some men had been called in from off duty to report -for duty. Gosh, I don't even remember what time I got off from work -that day. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay around the office all the rest of the time -that you were there, that you were on duty? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I would imagine that I went back to the basement. Let -me think. The rest of the time I didn't do anything in particular. I -mean any specific assignment that I can recall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you seem to have some idea that you went back to the -basement? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, the reason I think that I did, I had been away from -there about an hour and a half, and I just wanted to go back. I am sure -that I went back down there just to check on the situation and the -confusion that might have been in the basement, to see if possibly I -would have to notify the on-coming platoon how many men they might need -to stay around the city hall, quell this confusion. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go back up to the third floor at all? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. The rest of that day? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't think so. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any officers from the homicide bureau at -all, that day, the rest of that day? - -Mr. DEAN. Not that I recall; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with any police officers that day, about how -Ruby got into the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; now, you are bringing something back. I know now -what I did immediately--we will have to go back on the record. When I -got back to the city hall, I contacted Lieutenant Pierce and advised -him--that's when I talked to Pierce about my conversation with Ruby, -and I told him that I had talked to Ruby and that he told me that--how -he had gotten into the basement, which was breaking security, and that -Officer R. E. Vaughn was the man involved. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby told you--or you told him---- - -Mr. DEAN. I told Lieutenant Pierce that Ruby had told me he had came in -through the Main Street ramp, at which Officer Vaughn was posted. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you and Pierce do? - -Mr. DEAN. He notified the captain of this. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Talbert? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Talbert come in? Were you present when Pierce -notified Talbert? - -Mr. DEAN. I was present when--I do know that they called Vaughn in, but -I think that he had already gone home that day, and that he was off the -next day, and I think they called him to tell him to come, to report to -the office this next morning, to investigate whether he did let Ruby in -or how he got in, or why he said he came in through his post. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't talk with Vaughn the rest of the day? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And to your knowledge Pierce didn't talk with him the rest -of that day? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Talbert? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what else was done that day, as you recall, as a -result of your telling Pierce about the conversation with Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. I am sure that--I don't know. I am thinking that Captain -Talbert called Chief Fisher, notified him of it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. What's your best estimate of what time of the day that -would have been, that you talked with Pierce? - -Mr. DEAN. It was that afternoon, I believe, after I had gotten back -from the hospital. I didn't remember it a while ago, but I think when -I did get back from the hospital, that's when I told Lieutenant Pierce -about it, somewhere around 2:30 or 3. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any kind of record that you would have -maintained, or the police department would have maintained, that would -give us some better way of fixing that time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; not that I know of. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Dispatchers? Did you call the dispatcher to tell them you -were coming back? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; now, it was about 2 when I was talking--or had taken -Mrs. Oswald in to view Lee, and I left then, somewhere around 2. So -I got back to the station, maybe around 2:25 or 2:30, so when I told -Lieutenant Pierce about it, it should have been somewhere around, maybe -3, or the first time I saw him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you, after coming back and talking with Pierce, -make any further efforts or make any effort to talk with people who -you had assigned in the basement, or who you knew were working in the -basement, concerning the security of the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I did ask Nelson could he say for sure that this -man didn't come through his post, and he said he could say for sure -that he didn't come through the police and court building, Nelson's -post. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did you talk with Nelson? - -Mr. DEAN. This was, I am sure, when I got back--probably when I got -back from the hospital. I don't recall. It might have been before I -went. This was my main thought, as to how the man got into the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Vaughn at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I asked him, just as I asked the others, had this -man come through, because I knew the focal point was going to be on -Vaughn, and I knew the investigation was going to be on Vaughn. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Vaughn that afternoon? - -Mr. DEAN. It seems that Lieutenant Pierce and I talked to him, and I -think Captain Talbert was there. It was up on the second floor. It -seems that we did talk to him that day, asked him did he have any -knowledge of how he got into the basement. Captain Talbert was doing -most of the questioning. I told Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert -what Ruby had told me, and from this he was questioning Vaughn. - -Now, I think this was in the afternoon and Vaughn was scheduled to be -off the next day, and Captain Talbert told him he better come on into -work the next day, for the purpose, I assumed, of more investigation. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nelson, when was Nelson talked to? - -Mr. DEAN. Well now. I talked to Nelson myself. I don't know. I am sure -that somebody else did too, but I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Vaughn? - -Mr. DEAN. I don't remember. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did that conversation with Nelson take place? - -Mr. DEAN. He was still on his post when I talked to him. Of course, -this--whether it was before I went to the hospital or--I am sure that -it probably was before I went to the hospital, that I asked Nelson -could he say for certain that this man hadn't come by him, and he -said yes. And then I asked Patterson, all of them; Patterson, Nelson, -Vaughn, stated the man did not come by their post, but I--the focal -would be on Vaughn, since I had been told that that's where Ruby came -in, by Ruby himself. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now. Nelson gave a statement---- - -VOICE. Excuse me. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Nelson was interviewed by the Bureau--Federal Bureau of -Investigation on December 4, and the Bureau indicates that he told -them, and this is the Bureau's language and not his, talking about -his post, he said the other officer assigned there with him was a -reserve officer whose name he does not know. He was there for just 3 -or 4 minutes, when Sergeant Putnam told them to station themselves -just behind the first jail office window, for people were coming in, -in regard to jail office business, such as seeing prisoners. They were -instructed not to let any unauthorized persons through the door or ramp -leading into the basement. - -Okay, when I read that I was mistaken as to where I thought he was -standing, so that I was under the impression he was pulled off of his -post, but that would be entirely consistent. Apparently all they did -was to move him a few feet. Well, the jail office window, you have -three here. One, two, and three windows--so [indicating]. Well now, did -you talk with Bobby Patterson at all? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I asked him could he say for sure that this man -didn't come in his post. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you talk with him? - -Mr. DEAN. Some time before I went to the hospital. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with a reserve officer by the name of Newman? - -Mr. DEAN. I don't recall the name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with this reserve officer who was stationed -over in this area here, as you have indicated on the map [indicating]? - -Mr. DEAN. I asked Sergeant Putnam--in fact, we had talked during the -day about this man, whether to keep him or not, and I said definitely -keep him there, tell him to remain there. Now, I don't recall talking -to this man specifically about seeing if anyone had come through here. -I was fairly certain that they hadn't. The main thing I was thinking -about was that Ruby told me he came in here. I had no reason to doubt -him, but I didn't know how he had gotten in, other than what he had -said, just walking down, and I knew that this was putting R. E. Vaughn -in dereliction of his duty. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now; it's my understanding you talked with Patterson -before you went to Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you talked with Vaughn and Nelson after you went to -Parkland? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I probably asked all of them the question, "Did you see -this man come in here; do you know him?" And, of course, Vaughn said -he knew him. Patterson said he knew him. I don't recall whether Nelson -said he knew him or not, but that Patterson and Vaughn both stated, and -along with Nelson, that he did not come through their post. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with any of the other men who were -stationed down there in the basement? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; these were the men that I assigned and gave my -instructions, and those were the ones that I could talk to. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, on November 24, talking at all with -"Blackie" Harrison? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. About this? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. D. Miller? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about McMillon? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw McMillon and, as I understand---- - -Mr. DEAN. He was with Jack Ruby when we interviewed him up in the jail. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. And he asked no questions. I am sure that he stood there and -listened, as an interested party, or---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Bob Lowery? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I didn't talk to him. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had passed this information on to Pierce, -as I recall, you said that you thought you might have talked with -Vaughn some time that afternoon? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else you did that afternoon -besides possibly talking with Vaughn? - -Mr. DEAN. Not anything else particularly, other than asking Nelson and -Patterson, along with Vaughn, separately, rather, or individually, that -I did ask them did this man come by them, and they said no. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By the time you left work that day, had any instructions -been given with respect to preparing reports as to what happened? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this was the next morning. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you file a report at the end of the day? - -Mr. DEAN. At the end of the day? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any notes that particular day, on the 24th? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; my assignments. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And other than your assignments, did you make any other -notes? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you keep those in a regular assignment book? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; just a small notebook that I had. I always--when I -deal with a group of men, rather than try to remember where I put them, -I always write it down. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you made any notes about the -events, or wrote a report about the events of the 24th? - -Mr. DEAN. November the--I think probably I wrote this report on the -25th, which was the next day, but it's headed November the 26th, but I -imagine that's the time the typist got to it. She was doing a lot of -typing from then on, but I think the next morning is when I wrote this -report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have the original notes that you made, that -you used to write that report up? - -Mr. DEAN. This report; yes, sir. This is the one that I will supply to -you. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Good. When was the next time that you saw Jack Ruby, after -your interview or session with him up there? - -Mr. DEAN. The next time I saw him? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. In the courtroom during the trial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I have marked for -identification as Exhibit 5008, which is marked "Dallas, Texas, -Sergeant Dean, March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5008." This is actually stapled -to Exhibit 5007, but Exhibit 5008 is the report of the interview that -you had with FBI Agents Paul L. Scott and Edmond C. Hardin, on December -2, 1963, in Dallas. Will you look at that, Sergeant Dean, and tell me -if you had a chance to read that over? Let me ask you first of all, if -you have had a chance to read it over? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; last night. There are some corrections -[indicating]---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state to us what you think should be corrected in -that statement? - -Mr. DEAN. On page 1, the last paragraph, I don't know whether it's too -important. It says, "Dean recalled that before starting the search -of the basement he assigned Officer B. G. Patterson to stand at the -Commerce Street ramp leading to the basement." Now, this is actually -the exit from the basement, if that means anything. The way it reads -here it sounds like that's the entrance. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take my pen and change that. You might make -it read, "which is the exit"---- - -Mr. DEAN. Exit from the basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and if you would, just out in the margin, put your -initials and the date. - -Mr. DEAN. Page 2, paragraph 4, same error, Commerce Street ramp leading -into the basement [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. - -Mr. DEAN. I will mark it "exit". Page 4, paragraph 3--off the record. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; all right; that's all right. - -Mr. DEAN. It says, "Dean has known Jack Ruby since 1959." This is -erroneous. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How should it read? - -Mr. DEAN. It should be either 1960 or 1961, whatever date--I could find -out and let you know for sure, the time that I came downtown from the -Oak Cliff area, as a sergeant. I was assigned to the downtown area, -which includes the location of Carousel Club. I have been downtown some -4 or 5 months before I was assigned to this location. So I would say -it would have been about 4 or 5 months after I was transferred to the -downtown area that I met Jack Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you assigned to that downtown area? - -Mr. DEAN. About a year and a half. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you a sergeant at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any men working under your direction? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men worked under your direction down there? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, it would vary from the hours that I worked, from 12 to -17 or 17 men, depending on the hours. Twelve regular men, or 13 regular -men. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Vaughn under your direction at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. Vaughn has never worked for me directly. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nelson? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Bobby Patterson? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Patterson worked for me when I was assigned to the -area in the 100, district 100, in the downtown area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that the area that Jack Ruby's nightclub was in? - -Mr. DEAN. Patterson occasionally worked on the district that Ruby's -Carousel Club was on. Not as a regular man. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Patterson was friendly with Ruby? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don't know? - -Mr. DEAN. I don't know. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you consider yourself a friend of Patterson's? - -Mr. DEAN. Not intimately; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see Patterson on a social basis? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Patterson still work under your direction? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose direction is he under now? - -Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Jennings, W. G. Jennings. He is still assigned to -that area. Not the specific district that the Carousel was on, or has -been on, but let's see--I don't recall exactly what district he is -assigned to; 103 I believe. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if there is anything else. Incidentally, on this -date, have we turned the page on that? The date there, why don't you -make a correction as to what you think it is, and if you feel, when you -check your notes, that you want to correct it even more exactly, why -you can be free to do it [indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. I would like to clarify this one thing. "On occasions when -driving in the area with another officer, he would go up to the -Carousel, usually once or twice a week." This is true, as far as once -or twice a week, and sometimes three times a week. However, this--with -another officer is erroneous. Usually it would be with some friend of -mine that would be riding with me, rather than another officer. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Why don't you put that down? - -Mr. DEAN. Mutual friend or---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be somebody that would be interested in sort of -riding with the police officer, like newspaper reporters do? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. "In addition, Dean said he had gone to the club -while off duty on four occasions." I would say four would be the -outside, but I think I have been there only three times since I have -known him, since 1960 or 1961 [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you change that, then. When is the time you were -there most recently? - -Mr. DEAN. The last time I had been in his place was--well, we will say -relative to the shooting, I haven't been in there since, and I think 6 -or 8 months before would be the last time I had been in there, and in -fact, that long since I had seen Ruby. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of Ruby's employees? - -Mr. DEAN. By name. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew them to talk to? - -Mr. DEAN. To speak only. The people that were in the trial, well, -George Senator, I didn't know his name. I couldn't place it--knew the -face but I didn't know his name until the trial, and he was a bartender -regularly at the club. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he the bartender there on a regular basis in 1960 -or 1961? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. He was a regular there all the time that I worked -there, or worked in that area. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else did you recognize at the trial whom you remember -from the Carousel Club? - -Mr. DEAN. I don't believe I recognized anyone, other than this fellow -George Senator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a Negro man named Andy Armstrong that testified -at the trial? - -Mr. DEAN. I don't know. I don't know Andy Armstrong. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. He is one of Ruby's workers there. - -Okay. Anything else in there that [indicating]---- - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I would like for the record to show that my visits -while off duty to the Carousel was definitely an exception rather -than rule, and it would usually be when out-of-town people would come -to town, and this, by my working in that area, had gone in there -frequently on duty, I knew--or there had never been any trouble in -there, to my knowledge, as far as fights and such as that. I knew it -was a safe place for an off-duty officer to go, and interesting to -someone that hadn't seen it. So this is the exception that I went -there. I recall now, by reading this investigation by the FBI, that -soon after I had left the basement after this shooting, or left the -immediate area where Oswald was laying, I do recall now asking R. C. -Nelson, that was stationed at that doorway, had he come in that way, -and he then stated he was positive he hadn't. This was reflected in -this--I do remember. I wanted it to show that I do remember now, after -reading that. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me stop you here, Sergeant. - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me direct your attention to one portion of that -report. Have you read that portion of the report which deals with this -lengthy discussion that you and I had about the talk, the one talk you -had with Ruby on the date that Ruby shot Oswald; have you read that -portion of the report? - -Mr. DEAN. In the FBI report? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. Let's see. I don't recall reading it. You mean now have I -read it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Have you just read it? - -Mr. DEAN. No; I haven't read it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you find that, or I can maybe find it for you -quicker, but would you find that portion in there and would you read -that and tell me if that reports everything that you learned from Ruby -at that time? - -Mr. DEAN. If it's included in this report [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And I don't have simply reference to the discussion -about entering the basement, but if it reports everything of importance -that he told you during that interview? - -Mr. DEAN. I believe that this February 18 report would--the FBI report -doesn't include--it has the questions that I asked of Ruby and not of -Sorrels, if that's what you mean, it does. But this February 18 report -is what [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you, then, what I have marked for -identification as Exhibit 5010. It's a copy of a letter signed by you, -dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police. -Did you prepare that letter? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes; I did [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me ask you this, is that a true and accurate copy -of the actual original letter that you sent? - -Mr. DEAN. That's a copy I made myself, a Xerox copy [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write that letter on the basis of any notes? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; from memory. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare any prior reports to the police -department or anybody else, in connection with the events that are -recounted in that February 18th letter, other than the letter dated -November 26, to Chief Curry, which I have marked Exhibit 5009, and this -interview report, which we have designated 5008; are there any other -writings that you prepared prior to February 18? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; there is one report that I had written regarding -the article in the newspaper, that I had seen Ruby come into the -basement. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. - -Mr. DEAN. Do you have that? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if I have got that or not. Could you get us a -copy of that? I don't know if we have that or not. - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; now, I think the FBI made several--or made a report -of that, also. The investigation about the department there, I don't -know---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I know they made an investigation of it, and I don't -have the actual copy of the report. I have got the results of their -investigation but not the report. - -Mr. DEAN. I see. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Other than that report on the newspaper article -and these two other exhibits that I have referred to, are there any -other writings that you made that relate to the subject matters as -recounted in this February 18---- - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Letter. Now, how did you come to write this letter of -February 18, 1964? - -Mr. DEAN. Chief Stevenson called me, while I was in the office on that -date, and asked me to come up to see him, and I did. And he asked me -was I present during the entire interview with Ruby and Mr. Sorrels. I -told him I was. And he asked me did I remember most of the interview; -could I recollect most of the interview and the answers that Ruby had -given and I said, "Yes, sir." Then he advised me to make a report of -it, asked me would I make a report of it, recalling everything that -I could of that interview. To the best of my knowledge, that's all I -could remember. And I did testify to all this stuff in the trial. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the first time that you told anyone that Ruby had -told Sorrels that he thought about killing Oswald two nights prior when -he saw him in the showup room? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't recall telling it to any particular person. I -knew that this would probably be later used as testimony, I felt, since -it was--did make an impression on me, that I could remember it, and -it's written as I do remember, just about as it happened, it correlates -pretty well, even though we didn't get together with Mr. Sorrels' -report. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. But you can't remember? - -Mr. DEAN. Talking to anyone especially or specifically about what Ruby -had told me, other than how he got into the basement and how long he -had been there; no, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Or of any particular reference to the statement that Ruby -made to Sorrels that you have reported in here, about thinking about -killing Oswald two nights before; you can't remember that you ever---- - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I did feel at the time that I would probably testify -to this in court. I did witness Mr. Sorrels taking his notes, and I -felt if I had to, since I did witness it, I could use the notes. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think there is one other exhibit that I haven't -identified. We have talked about it, and that's Exhibit 5009, which -is a copy of a letter which purports to have been prepared by you, -addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963. - -Would you look at Exhibit 5009 [indicating]? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; that's my report [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have read that over many times, have you not? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; would you like for me to sign it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir; I would like for you to sign both 5008 and 5009. - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you wanted to make -to that? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a date by that, by your signature also, if you will -[indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me hand you 5010, and ask you to sign that and -date it [indicating]. - -Mr. DEAN. It's been signed--of course, this is a Xerox copy. Do you -want me to go ahead and sign it again? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take this one here, Exhibit 5008, and would you -sign that and date it [indicating]? - -Mr. DEAN. Where [indicating]? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page, I think probably is just as well -[indicating]. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant, you and I have been talking here off the record -for--I don't have a watch, but I would guess for 15 or 20 minutes, -with respect to other matters, and you indicated to me just before we -brought the court reporter in, that you had obtained some information -that apparently had not been previously made available to the -Commission, and I wonder if you could tell us what that is? - -Mr. DEAN. It was relative to a telephone call that I received last -night at about 2 o'clock in the morning. I didn't mark the time. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you? - -Mr. DEAN. At city hall. In the office there. The city hall operator had -called me and told me that she had a man, or an operator on the line -from Victoria, British Columbia, in Canada, and that she had been--this -operator had told her she had been talking to a man in Victoria about -some films that he had of the assassination, and asked me did I want to -take the call, and it wasn't--it was a collect call, and the operator -said that she couldn't unless it was by my authorization, but she did -tell me she heard this man talk enough that she believed he was serious -and had something that possibly could be used by the Warren Commission. -And, of course, I heard some of the conversation, and the man -sounded rational, and the operator in Victoria, her name was Bernice -Williamson, she is the night supervisor of the B.C. Telephone Company, -said that she had talked to this man long enough that she thought he -probably had something. And so I accepted the call. This man's name was -Ralph Simpson. He was calling from 384-3780, and he told me that he had -been standing on the southern part of the plaza when the assassination -took place, and he had a wide scope movie camera that he believed would -have taken in the building and the motorcade at the time the shots were -fired; that he had talked it over with his attorney--and the name of -the attorney was Batter [spelling] B-a-t-t-e-r, is what I got, and that -Batter advised him to call someone here, but not the Warren Commission. -And he asked me--when I accepted the call, he asked me what I would -suggest, and I told him that first he should mail them to the Warren -Commission. And then he asked me had I been to the Warren Commission. -He recognized my name, that I had been testifying, and I said, "Yes; -and I am scheduled to go back tomorrow night." And he said, "Well, I -will send the films to you. They haven't been--". Well, he said they -hadn't been developed, and he wasn't going to have them developed, -that he would send them to me airmail. This was about 2 o'clock in the -night--on the morning of the 24th, this morning [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have in front of you, Sergeant, a piece of -paper? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; what I took notes---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those your original notes? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I mark that for identification? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this, "Dallas. Tex., Sergeant Dean, -March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5012." Now, let me see if I understand you -correctly. This was a collect call placed from Canada to the police -department? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. By a man by the name of Simpson, Ralph Simpson? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually talk with Simpson? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the telephone call last? - -Mr. DEAN. Four minutes and three seconds, I think. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the name of the operator that put the call -through, Bernice Williamson? - -Mr. DEAN. She was the Victoria operator. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the name of the city operator? - -Mr. DEAN. The city operator was Patsy. I don't know her last name. -Patsy. She is the night operator at city hall. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate that Patsy handled that? Did Patsy -listen in on the call? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you talked with her about this since? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; she called back and gave me the time and charges on -it. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there a record of that in the police department? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you get that for us? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I would appreciate that. - -Mr. DEAN. Now, when she called me back to give me the time and charges -she said that the operator had further checked this number 384-3780, -and that number was--the call was made from the residence of the -initials R. H. W., last name [spelling] S-m-e-l-e [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had checked that, now? - -Mr. DEAN. The police department---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Patsy? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this night supervisor, Bernice Williamson in Canada, -had contacted the police department there and asked them could they -cross that number, or furnish her the address or name. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bernice Williamson tell you this after you finished -the telephone call? - -Mr. DEAN. She told Patsy, the city hall operator this, and this is---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Patsy reconveyed that to you? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And you learned this from Patsy after the conversation -with Simpson? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; this R. H. W. Smele has an address of 1141 Caldonia -in Victoria. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Have you reported this to anybody else? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate your bringing it to us then, very much. - -Would you sign that exhibit, Sergeant? - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We will certainly look into that right away. - -Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Sergeant, we have been off the record here -awhile, and you indicated that the man said something about having been -here on vacation and some other thing. Will you tell us what else? - -Mr. DEAN. He said he had been here on vacation and that when he learned -of the President's coming, he had stationed himself on the southwestern -part of the plaza, toward the railroad tracks, and that he had a wide -scope--he referred to it as a full wide scope camera, and that he -believed that he had gotten the assassination. He was taking pictures -at the time of the assassination, and he believed that he had the -building in the background, because it's in direct trajectory of the -line of fire. My impression of him was that since he said that he had -talked it over with his attorney and didn't know what to do with these -things, that he seemed to be scared as to whether to keep them or throw -them away or what. When he told me that he would send them to me, that -he said, "You can have them. I haven't developed them, and you don't -have to send me any copies of them back." - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you notify us as soon as they receive those films? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. And turn them over to us? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. You want all the records from the city hall -operator? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Telephone call; yes. - -Mr. DEAN. This has been signed and dated [indicating]. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, I don't know if you have had a chance to read -this or not, but this is what I have marked as Exhibit 5011, which is -an interview with you by Special Agent Paul Scott of the Federal Bureau -of Investigation on December 9, 1963. Would you look that over and -then---- - -Mr. DEAN. Sign it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it and make any changes or additions that you want to -make in it. - -Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Then let me state for the record that I appreciate very -much the assistance that Sergeant Dean has given us here this evening, -and I hope, and I am sure that if anything further comes to light -which he thinks would be of value to the Commission, that he will come -forward with it voluntarily, as you have here today? - -Mr. DEAN. Burt, this--of course, I was cleared of all of this, as far -as this newspaper article---- - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. - -Mr. DEAN. I was just wondering if you had the FBI report on it? - -Mr. GRIFFIN. We do. And I just wanted to make sure that as far as any -statements are concerned, that you have made, or report, that you had a -chance to look at them, and to my knowledge, I think I have shown you -every one that we have on it. - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. That's all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN RESUMED - -The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 4:45 p.m., on April -1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. P. T. Dean was -accompanied by his lawyer, Mr. Ted MacMasters. - - -Mr. HUBERT. Note that I am present. Note that Sgt. P. T. Dean is -present and Mr. Ted MacMasters assistant city attorney of Dallas, and -appearing as attorney for Mister--Sergeant Dean. Now, Sergeant Dean, -your deposition was begun on---- - -Mr. DEAN. I believe it was a Tuesday. - -Mr. MacMASTERS. March 24. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burt Griffin as the member of the Commission's advisory -staff conducting the examination. At that time you took an oath, I -believe? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to consider that this is simply a -continuation of that deposition? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that you are under the same oath that you were before? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I wish to advise you that I have been authorized by Mr. -J. Lee Rankin, general counsel for the Commission's staff to take -your deposition under oath also. In other words, both Mr. Griffin and -I have been so authorized, and I think he advised you of the general -conditions and the right of notice and waiver and so forth? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that as far as I am concerned, I will just ask you if -you have anything to add to your deposition or anything to say at all -in any way? - -Mr. DEAN. I told Mr. Griffin on that date that I would bring him -additional information that he wanted. - -One was a record of the telephone call received on the 24th. Now, that -would make your interview on the 25th, actually, I believe. Now, no, -no; that's right. The morning, early morning hours of the 24th is when -I received this call from Victoria, Canada. - -That is a record of it from the city hall operator. That was pertaining -to the film from the fellow in Alaska--or--correction, in Canada that -he said he would---- - -Mr. MacMASTERS. Do you want to identify this? - -Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me two documents and I judge that one of -them is a photostatic copy of a front of a document, and the other is a -photostatic copy of the rear of that document? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well; I am going to mark them for identification -as follows: "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit--" We'll use -number--5136, continuation of deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean." And I am -signing my name for the purposes of identification and I am signing -the second document which you state is a photostatic copy of the back -of the document now identified as Exhibit 5136, as follows: "Dallas, -Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5136-A, continuation of Deposition of P. -T. Dean." Signing my name on the back of this, and for the purposes -of identification and to show that we are both talking about the same -document, would you mind putting your name below mine? - -Mr. DEAN. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you identify what these two documents were? -Perhaps we'd better do it again, in the light of their identification -numbers, so, let me ask you what are the documents that have now been -marked for identification as 5136 and 5136-A? - -Mr. DEAN. A record of the city hall's operator receiving a call from -Victoria, Canada, on that date of March 24, about 4 o'clock in the -morning and at that time I talked to--I believe it is Jack Simpson, or -it is Ralph Simpson, and he stated that he had a reel of movie film -that he had taken of the assassination and the trajectory of the line -of fire which was on the far side of the plaza, which would be on the -south side of Commerce Street. Mr. Simpson told me on the phone that -he believed he had gotten not only the assassination, but also the -building from where the bullet was fired. But I advised him--he wanted -to know what to do with this film, and I advised him to send it to the -Warren Commission in Washington, and he said that he had talked to his -attorney and the attorney, Batter [phonetic] in Victoria, I didn't get -the first name, his attorney had advised him to contact someone in -Dallas and to send them to whatever place they said other than to the -Warren Commission. He then asked me could he send them to me and I told -him that he could. I checked with my office then just before coming -over here today and the film hadn't come in. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he was going to send them by mail? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes; he said he would airmail them the next day. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate why he had called you, or just that you -were on duty? - -Mr. DEAN. Just on the advice of his attorney. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, I mean, your particular name? - -Mr. DEAN. No; he didn't ask for me particularly. However, he said that -he recognized my name from reading of my testimony in the papers. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he made the call, he was calling -specifically to you. You happened to be on duty, and therefore, the -call came to you? - -Mr. DEAN. That's right, and that is the record of the call received. -That is what Mr. Griffin wanted. - -Mr. HUBERT. And the other part that you told us about was the substance -of a phone call? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Right. Okay. Now, if you are going to talk about another -document let's get it identified first and get numbers on it. Now. -Mr. Dean, you are handing me a document consisting of three pages -being apparently a photostatic copy of a letter dated April 8, 1963, -addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police. Last page shows "P. Treavor -Dean---- - -Mr. MacMASTERS. I believe that is December 8. You said April. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, no, no. December 8. Couldn't be April 8, we aren't -there yet. - -"P. Treavor Dean, Sergeant Police Control Division," and in order that -it may be identified and that the record may show what we're talking -about, I am marking this first page in the right-hand margin, "Dallas, -Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5137, Continuation of Deposition of P. T. -Dean," signing my name below that, and the inscription on the second -page, placing my initial in the right-hand lower corner and on the -third page I am doing the same, and also ask you to sign the pages and -initial them as I have done. - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, do you have any comments to make with -reference to this Document 5137, which you have handed me? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I believe it is self-explanatory. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is this one of the documents that---- - -Mr. DEAN. Mr. Griffin asked me would I bring. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you. - -Mr. DEAN. Mr. Griffin also asked me to bring a copy, if I had one, -of my original notes that I had taken in the basement that day of my -assignments and I have those. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, what day are you speaking of? The 24th? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; November 24. - -Mr. HUBERT. November 24. - -Mr. DEAN. They are not all--all my assignments are not here. However, -the majority of them are. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say your assignments, you mean the people you -assigned, or the job you were assigned to? - -Mr. DEAN. The people that I assigned to various locations in the -basement. - -Mr. HUBERT. I see. Now, do you propose to let me then have that or -a photostatic copy of it, or do you propose simply to dictate the -information into the record? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, how about me just dictating it and I will keep this? - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, if Mr. Griffin's purpose was to find out -whether they existed, then perhaps I ought to look at them so I can -state I have seen these things myself. - -Mr. DEAN. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, let the record show that as Mr. Dean reads the -information he is going to read, I am following him, and if he reads -them correctly, I will say nothing. If he reads them incorrectly, or in -a way that I do not understand, I will call it to his attention so that -we may get it clear. - -All right? - -Mr. DEAN. My first assignments were made just prior to our searching -the basement. They were Officer Vaughn. R. E. Vaughn I assigned to -the Main Street ramp, which is the north ramp entering the basement. -Officer Patterson, B. G. Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp, which -is the exit onto Commerce Street. These men were to be--were assigned -to the top of these ramps. Officer Brock was assigned to the elevator -in the basement. Officer Nelson was assigned in the hall at the jail -doors. Well, in--at the jail window. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is that? - -Mr. DEAN. This is "Commerce ramp". - -All right, now, Officer Jez, I assigned him with Patterson at the -Commerce Street ramp. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, these notes are not exactly like that. -You have added a few words, but let the record show that there -is--displayed to me a paper which has, in substance, all that Mr. Dean -has testified to. - -Mr. MacMASTERS. You are interpolating your notes, aren't you? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and adding initials and--yes, sir. These two -other men here, I don't know which one for sure, but they are -Reserve Officers Fred A. Briederdorf, it looks like [spelling] -B-r-i-e-d-e-r--or, B-e-r-d-r-f, and also another man by the name of -Hunt, initials of which I don't know, or the first name. - -They were assigned to the basement, and I think that one of these two -men I assigned to the entrance into the basement, or the machinery room. - -Mr. HUBERT. There is a word here. - -Mr. DEAN. Reserve. - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that is reserve---- - -Mr. DEAN. This is the page where I started to make some traffic -assignments and they changed it, so, I--now, these are the traffic -assignments just prior to the movement of Oswald. At Commerce and -Pearl I assigned Officer Erwin, initials I don't know. At Commerce -and Central, Officer Burton. At Central and Main, Officer Wages. At -Central and Elm, Officer Gregory. At Pearl and Elm, Officer Tolbert. -At Harwood and Elm, Officer Fox. At St. Paul and Elm, Officer Wise. -At Elm and Ervay, shows here Brock. Brock. At Stone and Elm, Officer -Raz. Akard and Elm, Officer Hibbs. At Field and Elm, Officer Anderson, -and at Lamar and Elm, Officer Ferris. Now, these were just tentative -assignments. I think in one of my reports that is already in evidence -is the permanent assignments, but these are the originals that I made -that afternoon which were tentative. - -Now, this is just a note that I had written down from a Bob Stewart. -He worked for WRR, and he was giving me some information that he had -received. I don't remember from where he had received it, but he -stated to me, and I had written it down here, a Serge Fliger, he is -with Mutual News in Vienna, Austria, and that in essence--now, I can -interpret these notes for you, if you would rather. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you just read them and then interpret them. - -Mr. DEAN. That source of Serge's information from behind the Iron -Curtain that a man told him, and he--it was a man that he stated that -he trusted completely, that there was a group of dissident Russian -soldiers, that this whole thing was an international plot, and that the -Communists would kill off Oswald as quick as possible. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, with reference to those last few notes about Fliger, -what you have read is not exactly what is in the book itself, but it is -rather your---- - -Mr. DEAN. More of an interpretation of my notes, because I had written -it rather hurriedly. - -Mr. HUBERT. But, let the record show that as I read the notes the -interpretation of them seems consistent with what I read. - -Mr. DEAN. I believe that is all that is in here, Mr. Hubert. I believe -that's all. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, may I ask this; were all those notes that you have -just shown to me and read into the record with interpolations written -in your own hand? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were they written at the time that you made the various -assignments and so forth? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And that includes also that information about that Serge -Fliger from Austria? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right. - -Mr. DEAN. And also, Mr. Griffin wanted me to find, if I could obtain a -copy of the--regarding a tape recording. It was an interview with radio -station KLIF, and this interview took place about 2:30 on November 24. - -Mr. HUBERT. 2:30 p.m.? - -Mr. DEAN. That afternoon. Yes, sir; I do have a copy of that and I have -listened to it and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, -sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Are you proposing to give me the tape itself, or a -transcription of it? - -Mr. DEAN. Well, that is a transcript, I assume. I just asked KLIF would -they make me a copy of it and this is, a transcript. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to let me have the film, or this little -record, or seems to be tape on a regular roll. Do you want it back? - -Mr. DEAN. Could I have it back when the Commission gets through with it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; but I don't know when that will be, you know. - -Mr. DEAN. Well, whenever it might be. - -Mr. HUBERT. I am trying to see how we are going to mark this. - -Mr. MacMASTERS. Could it be placed in a sealed envelope and initialed -across it and seal it and so forth? - -Mr. HUBERT. I have placed my initials, LDH, on one end of the tape, -and I have done that also, on the other end of the tape and giving the -exhibit number of--by marking it "EX, 5138," with ball point pen on -both ends of the tape, and then I'm also marking the small box, "5138" -on one side, and "5138" on the other side, with my initials on both -sides. - -Mr. DEAN. Do you want me to initial it? - -Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I don't know that that is necessary if you have heard -that recording. - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it is a true recording of an interview of you, as I -understand it, that you had with some reporter of the---- - -Mr. DEAN. At KLIF. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his name? - -Mr. DEAN. Glenn Duncan. It is on the tape also. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. You think it is a correct recording of a -conversation? - -Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, anything else? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I, well, when these film, if they do come in, this -fellow does send them to me, I will make them available to you. - -Mr. HUBERT. You can do so through Mr. Barefoot Sanders. Contact us -immediately. - -Mr. DEAN. All right, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I will accept this and place these various exhibits you -have given me today in with the other exhibits in the folder that we -are putting all these exhibits in. - -Mr. DEAN. All right. - -Mr. HUBERT. Any other matters? - -Mr. DEAN. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is all. Thank you very much. Mr. MacMasters, thank you -very much. - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "the nature of the inquiry tonight is to -to determine the facts") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -Occasional missing periods at the ends of sentences have been remedied. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Text uses both "Nelson" and "Nielson"; may or may not be the same -person. - -Text uses both "Eberhart" and "Eberhardt"; probably the same person. - -Text uses both "MacMaster" and "MacMasters"; they appear to refer to -the same person, "Ted P. MacMaster", but none of these has been changed. - -Page 92: "Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert." is missing the word "is". - -Page 97: "were in the basement; we" was printed with the semi-colon. - -Page 104: "I directed by attention" is misprint for "my". - -Page 124: Quotation marks in the paragraph beginning "Closing the quote" -were printed as shown here. - -Page 180: In "10:50 approximately 10:50", the second one was printed as -"10.50"; changed here. - -Page 180: "onduty" may be misprint for "on duty". - -Page 207: "Do you solemnly swear" was misprinted as "your"; changed -here. - -Page 210: "I would recognize them if I say them" was printed that way. - -Page 214: Reference to "Detective Crenshaw" was spelled that way. - -Page 245: "I told Goolsby" was misprinted as "Goodsby"; changed here. - -Page 262: "I immediately come to town." was printed that way. - -Page 265: "The 29th or November 1963" is misprint for "of". - -Page 278: "No; Captain Martin" was printed that way. - -Page 280: "know what you are thinking is about it" was printed that way. - -Page 293: "Let the record show that I am not taking out of the bound" -was printed that way. - -Page 299: "Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you go ahead" may be misprint for "Mr. -GRIFFIN." - -Page 307: "How long have you known Officer Harrison" was misprinted as -"know"; changed here. - -Page 324: "line of newsman" was printed that way. - -Page 343: Several instances of "Mr. PUTNAM." that should have been -"Sergeant PUTNAM." have not been changed. - -Page 344: "not seen my anybody" should be "by". - -Page 376: "Mr. WATSON. But, your head was turned away from the area?" -probably was asked by Mr. Hubert, and Mr. Watson's response to the -previous question is missing. - -Page 393: "the spot there were you first saw" perhaps should be "where". - -Page 402: "the part mental interview" probably should be "departmental". - -Page 408: "Is that correct?" was misprinted as "It"; changed here. - -Page 415: "As the title of the Commission would indicate," ends with a -comma in the source. - -Page 428: "were there four of five" probably should be "or". - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings -Vol. XII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V12 *** - -***** This file should be named 44012.txt or 44012.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/1/44012/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - -Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions -will be renamed. - -Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no -one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation -(and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without -permission and without paying copyright royalties. Special rules, -set forth in the General Terms of Use part of this license, apply to -copying and distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works to -protect the PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm concept and trademark. Project -Gutenberg is a registered trademark, and may not be used if you -charge for the eBooks, unless you receive specific permission. If you -do not charge anything for copies of this eBook, complying with the -rules is very easy. You may use this eBook for nearly any purpose -such as creation of derivative works, reports, performances and -research. They may be modified and printed and given away--you may do -practically ANYTHING with public domain eBooks. Redistribution is -subject to the trademark license, especially commercial -redistribution. - - - -*** START: FULL LICENSE *** - -THE FULL PROJECT GUTENBERG LICENSE -PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU DISTRIBUTE OR USE THIS WORK - -To protect the Project Gutenberg-tm mission of promoting the free -distribution of electronic works, by using or distributing this work -(or any other work associated in any way with the phrase "Project -Gutenberg"), you agree to comply with all the terms of the Full Project -Gutenberg-tm License available with this file or online at - www.gutenberg.org/license. - - -Section 1. General Terms of Use and Redistributing Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic works - -1.A. By reading or using any part of this Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic work, you indicate that you have read, understand, agree to -and accept all the terms of this license and intellectual property -(trademark/copyright) agreement. If you do not agree to abide by all -the terms of this agreement, you must cease using and return or destroy -all copies of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works in your possession. -If you paid a fee for obtaining a copy of or access to a Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic work and you do not agree to be bound by the -terms of this agreement, you may obtain a refund from the person or -entity to whom you paid the fee as set forth in paragraph 1.E.8. - -1.B. "Project Gutenberg" is a registered trademark. It may only be -used on or associated in any way with an electronic work by people who -agree to be bound by the terms of this agreement. There are a few -things that you can do with most Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works -even without complying with the full terms of this agreement. See -paragraph 1.C below. There are a lot of things you can do with Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic works if you follow the terms of this agreement -and help preserve free future access to Project Gutenberg-tm electronic -works. See paragraph 1.E below. - -1.C. The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation ("the Foundation" -or PGLAF), owns a compilation copyright in the collection of Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic works. Nearly all the individual works in the -collection are in the public domain in the United States. If an -individual work is in the public domain in the United States and you are -located in the United States, we do not claim a right to prevent you from -copying, distributing, performing, displaying or creating derivative -works based on the work as long as all references to Project Gutenberg -are removed. Of course, we hope that you will support the Project -Gutenberg-tm mission of promoting free access to electronic works by -freely sharing Project Gutenberg-tm works in compliance with the terms of -this agreement for keeping the Project Gutenberg-tm name associated with -the work. You can easily comply with the terms of this agreement by -keeping this work in the same format with its attached full Project -Gutenberg-tm License when you share it without charge with others. - -1.D. The copyright laws of the place where you are located also govern -what you can do with this work. Copyright laws in most countries are in -a constant state of change. If you are outside the United States, check -the laws of your country in addition to the terms of this agreement -before downloading, copying, displaying, performing, distributing or -creating derivative works based on this work or any other Project -Gutenberg-tm work. The Foundation makes no representations concerning -the copyright status of any work in any country outside the United -States. - -1.E. Unless you have removed all references to Project Gutenberg: - -1.E.1. The following sentence, with active links to, or other immediate -access to, the full Project Gutenberg-tm License must appear prominently -whenever any copy of a Project Gutenberg-tm work (any work on which the -phrase "Project Gutenberg" appears, or with which the phrase "Project -Gutenberg" is associated) is accessed, displayed, performed, viewed, -copied or distributed: - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - -1.E.2. If an individual Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work is derived -from the public domain (does not contain a notice indicating that it is -posted with permission of the copyright holder), the work can be copied -and distributed to anyone in the United States without paying any fees -or charges. If you are redistributing or providing access to a work -with the phrase "Project Gutenberg" associated with or appearing on the -work, you must comply either with the requirements of paragraphs 1.E.1 -through 1.E.7 or obtain permission for the use of the work and the -Project Gutenberg-tm trademark as set forth in paragraphs 1.E.8 or -1.E.9. - -1.E.3. If an individual Project Gutenberg-tm electronic work is posted -with the permission of the copyright holder, your use and distribution -must comply with both paragraphs 1.E.1 through 1.E.7 and any additional -terms imposed by the copyright holder. Additional terms will be linked -to the Project Gutenberg-tm License for all works posted with the -permission of the copyright holder found at the beginning of this work. - -1.E.4. Do not unlink or detach or remove the full Project Gutenberg-tm -License terms from this work, or any files containing a part of this -work or any other work associated with Project Gutenberg-tm. - -1.E.5. Do not copy, display, perform, distribute or redistribute this -electronic work, or any part of this electronic work, without -prominently displaying the sentence set forth in paragraph 1.E.1 with -active links or immediate access to the full terms of the Project -Gutenberg-tm License. - -1.E.6. You may convert to and distribute this work in any binary, -compressed, marked up, nonproprietary or proprietary form, including any -word processing or hypertext form. However, if you provide access to or -distribute copies of a Project Gutenberg-tm work in a format other than -"Plain Vanilla ASCII" or other format used in the official version -posted on the official Project Gutenberg-tm web site (www.gutenberg.org), -you must, at no additional cost, fee or expense to the user, provide a -copy, a means of exporting a copy, or a means of obtaining a copy upon -request, of the work in its original "Plain Vanilla ASCII" or other -form. Any alternate format must include the full Project Gutenberg-tm -License as specified in paragraph 1.E.1. - -1.E.7. Do not charge a fee for access to, viewing, displaying, -performing, copying or distributing any Project Gutenberg-tm works -unless you comply with paragraph 1.E.8 or 1.E.9. - -1.E.8. You may charge a reasonable fee for copies of or providing -access to or distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works provided -that - -- You pay a royalty fee of 20% of the gross profits you derive from - the use of Project Gutenberg-tm works calculated using the method - you already use to calculate your applicable taxes. The fee is - owed to the owner of the Project Gutenberg-tm trademark, but he - has agreed to donate royalties under this paragraph to the - Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation. Royalty payments - must be paid within 60 days following each date on which you - prepare (or are legally required to prepare) your periodic tax - returns. Royalty payments should be clearly marked as such and - sent to the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation at the - address specified in Section 4, "Information about donations to - the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation." - -- You provide a full refund of any money paid by a user who notifies - you in writing (or by e-mail) within 30 days of receipt that s/he - does not agree to the terms of the full Project Gutenberg-tm - License. You must require such a user to return or - destroy all copies of the works possessed in a physical medium - and discontinue all use of and all access to other copies of - Project Gutenberg-tm works. - -- You provide, in accordance with paragraph 1.F.3, a full refund of any - money paid for a work or a replacement copy, if a defect in the - electronic work is discovered and reported to you within 90 days - of receipt of the work. - -- You comply with all other terms of this agreement for free - distribution of Project Gutenberg-tm works. - -1.E.9. If you wish to charge a fee or distribute a Project Gutenberg-tm -electronic work or group of works on different terms than are set -forth in this agreement, you must obtain permission in writing from -both the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation and Michael -Hart, the owner of the Project Gutenberg-tm trademark. Contact the -Foundation as set forth in Section 3 below. - -1.F. - -1.F.1. Project Gutenberg volunteers and employees expend considerable -effort to identify, do copyright research on, transcribe and proofread -public domain works in creating the Project Gutenberg-tm -collection. Despite these efforts, Project Gutenberg-tm electronic -works, and the medium on which they may be stored, may contain -"Defects," such as, but not limited to, incomplete, inaccurate or -corrupt data, transcription errors, a copyright or other intellectual -property infringement, a defective or damaged disk or other medium, a -computer virus, or computer codes that damage or cannot be read by -your equipment. - -1.F.2. LIMITED WARRANTY, DISCLAIMER OF DAMAGES - Except for the "Right -of Replacement or Refund" described in paragraph 1.F.3, the Project -Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation, the owner of the Project -Gutenberg-tm trademark, and any other party distributing a Project -Gutenberg-tm electronic work under this agreement, disclaim all -liability to you for damages, costs and expenses, including legal -fees. YOU AGREE THAT YOU HAVE NO REMEDIES FOR NEGLIGENCE, STRICT -LIABILITY, BREACH OF WARRANTY OR BREACH OF CONTRACT EXCEPT THOSE -PROVIDED IN PARAGRAPH 1.F.3. YOU AGREE THAT THE FOUNDATION, THE -TRADEMARK OWNER, AND ANY DISTRIBUTOR UNDER THIS AGREEMENT WILL NOT BE -LIABLE TO YOU FOR ACTUAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE OR -INCIDENTAL DAMAGES EVEN IF YOU GIVE NOTICE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH -DAMAGE. - -1.F.3. LIMITED RIGHT OF REPLACEMENT OR REFUND - If you discover a -defect in this electronic work within 90 days of receiving it, you can -receive a refund of the money (if any) you paid for it by sending a -written explanation to the person you received the work from. If you -received the work on a physical medium, you must return the medium with -your written explanation. The person or entity that provided you with -the defective work may elect to provide a replacement copy in lieu of a -refund. If you received the work electronically, the person or entity -providing it to you may choose to give you a second opportunity to -receive the work electronically in lieu of a refund. If the second copy -is also defective, you may demand a refund in writing without further -opportunities to fix the problem. - -1.F.4. Except for the limited right of replacement or refund set forth -in paragraph 1.F.3, this work is provided to you 'AS-IS', WITH NO OTHER -WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO -WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PURPOSE. - -1.F.5. Some states do not allow disclaimers of certain implied -warranties or the exclusion or limitation of certain types of damages. -If any disclaimer or limitation set forth in this agreement violates the -law of the state applicable to this agreement, the agreement shall be -interpreted to make the maximum disclaimer or limitation permitted by -the applicable state law. The invalidity or unenforceability of any -provision of this agreement shall not void the remaining provisions. - -1.F.6. INDEMNITY - You agree to indemnify and hold the Foundation, the -trademark owner, any agent or employee of the Foundation, anyone -providing copies of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works in accordance -with this agreement, and any volunteers associated with the production, -promotion and distribution of Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works, -harmless from all liability, costs and expenses, including legal fees, -that arise directly or indirectly from any of the following which you do -or cause to occur: (a) distribution of this or any Project Gutenberg-tm -work, (b) alteration, modification, or additions or deletions to any -Project Gutenberg-tm work, and (c) any Defect you cause. - - -Section 2. Information about the Mission of Project Gutenberg-tm - -Project Gutenberg-tm is synonymous with the free distribution of -electronic works in formats readable by the widest variety of computers -including obsolete, old, middle-aged and new computers. It exists -because of the efforts of hundreds of volunteers and donations from -people in all walks of life. - -Volunteers and financial support to provide volunteers with the -assistance they need are critical to reaching Project Gutenberg-tm's -goals and ensuring that the Project Gutenberg-tm collection will -remain freely available for generations to come. In 2001, the Project -Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation was created to provide a secure -and permanent future for Project Gutenberg-tm and future generations. -To learn more about the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation -and how your efforts and donations can help, see Sections 3 and 4 -and the Foundation information page at www.gutenberg.org - - -Section 3. Information about the Project Gutenberg Literary Archive -Foundation - -The Project Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation is a non profit -501(c)(3) educational corporation organized under the laws of the -state of Mississippi and granted tax exempt status by the Internal -Revenue Service. The Foundation's EIN or federal tax identification -number is 64-6221541. Contributions to the Project Gutenberg -Literary Archive Foundation are tax deductible to the full extent -permitted by U.S. federal laws and your state's laws. - -The Foundation's principal office is located at 4557 Melan Dr. S. -Fairbanks, AK, 99712., but its volunteers and employees are scattered -throughout numerous locations. Its business office is located at 809 -North 1500 West, Salt Lake City, UT 84116, (801) 596-1887. Email -contact links and up to date contact information can be found at the -Foundation's web site and official page at www.gutenberg.org/contact - -For additional contact information: - Dr. Gregory B. Newby - Chief Executive and Director - gbnewby@pglaf.org - -Section 4. Information about Donations to the Project Gutenberg -Literary Archive Foundation - -Project Gutenberg-tm depends upon and cannot survive without wide -spread public support and donations to carry out its mission of -increasing the number of public domain and licensed works that can be -freely distributed in machine readable form accessible by the widest -array of equipment including outdated equipment. Many small donations -($1 to $5,000) are particularly important to maintaining tax exempt -status with the IRS. - -The Foundation is committed to complying with the laws regulating -charities and charitable donations in all 50 states of the United -States. Compliance requirements are not uniform and it takes a -considerable effort, much paperwork and many fees to meet and keep up -with these requirements. We do not solicit donations in locations -where we have not received written confirmation of compliance. To -SEND DONATIONS or determine the status of compliance for any -particular state visit www.gutenberg.org/donate - -While we cannot and do not solicit contributions from states where we -have not met the solicitation requirements, we know of no prohibition -against accepting unsolicited donations from donors in such states who -approach us with offers to donate. - -International donations are gratefully accepted, but we cannot make -any statements concerning tax treatment of donations received from -outside the United States. U.S. laws alone swamp our small staff. - -Please check the Project Gutenberg Web pages for current donation -methods and addresses. Donations are accepted in a number of other -ways including checks, online payments and credit card donations. -To donate, please visit: www.gutenberg.org/donate - - -Section 5. General Information About Project Gutenberg-tm electronic -works. - -Professor Michael S. Hart was the originator of the Project Gutenberg-tm -concept of a library of electronic works that could be freely shared -with anyone. For forty years, he produced and distributed Project -Gutenberg-tm eBooks with only a loose network of volunteer support. - -Project Gutenberg-tm eBooks are often created from several printed -editions, all of which are confirmed as Public Domain in the U.S. -unless a copyright notice is included. Thus, we do not necessarily -keep eBooks in compliance with any particular paper edition. - -Most people start at our Web site which has the main PG search facility: - - www.gutenberg.org - -This Web site includes information about Project Gutenberg-tm, -including how to make donations to the Project Gutenberg Literary -Archive Foundation, how to help produce our new eBooks, and how to -subscribe to our email newsletter to hear about new eBooks. |