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diff --git a/44012-0.txt b/44012-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..a415935 --- /dev/null +++ b/44012-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,44346 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44012 *** + +Transcriber's note: Stylized "L" is denoted as =L=. Italics are +represented by _underscores_. + + + + + INVESTIGATION OF + + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ XII + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + +[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the +Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XII: +Charles Batchelor, Jesse E. Curry, J. E. Decker, W. B. Frazier, O. A. +Jones, Jack Revill, James Maurice Solomon, M. W. Stevenson, and Cecil +E. Talbert, Charles Oliver Arnett, Buford Lee Beaty, Alvin R. Brock, +B. H. Combest, Kenneth Hudson Croy, Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw, Napoleon J. +Daniels, William J. Harrison, Harold B. Holly, Jr., Harry M. Kriss, Roy +Lee Lowery, Frank M. Martin, Billy Joe Maxey, Logan W. Mayo, Louis D. +Miller, William J. Newman, Bobby G. Patterson, Rio S. Pierce, James A. +Putnam, Willie B. Slack, Don Francis Steele, Roy Eugene Vaughn, James +C. Watson, G. E. Worley, and Woodrow Wiggins, Dallas law enforcement +officers who were responsible for planning and executing the transfer +of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County +Jail; and Don Ray Archer, Barnard S. Clardy, and Patrick Trevore Dean, +who participated in the arrest and questioning of Jack L. Ruby. + + + + +Contents + + + Page + Preface v + + Testimony of-- + Charles Batchelor 1 + Jesse E. Curry 25 + J. E. (Bill) Decker 42 + W. B. Frazier 52 + O. A. Jones 58 + Jack Revill 73 + James Maurice Solomon 87 + M. W. Stevenson 91 + Cecil E. Talbert 108 + Charles Oliver Arnett 128 + Buford Lee Beaty 158 + Alvin R. Brock 171 + B. H. Combest 176 + Kenneth Hudson Croy 186 + Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw 206 + Napoleon J. Daniels 225 + William J. Harrison 234 + Harold B. Holly, Jr 261 + Harry M. Kriss 266 + Roy Lee Lowery 271 + Frank M. Martin 277 + Billy Joe Maxey 285 + Logan W. Mayo 291 + Louis D. Miller 297 + William J. Newman 314 + Bobby G. Patterson 334 + Rio S. Pierce 337 + James A. Putnam 341 + Willie B. Slack 347 + Don Francis Steele 353 + Roy Eugene Vaughn 357 + James C. Watson 372 + G. E. Worley 378 + Woodrow Wiggins 388 + Don Ray Archer 395 + Barnard S. Clardy 403 + Patrick Trevore Dean 415 + + +EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + Archer Exhibit No.: Page + 5091 397 + 5092 401 + 5093 401 + Arnett Exhibit No.: + 5032 131 + 5033 131 + 5034 150 + 5035 154 + 5036 154 + Batchelor Exhibit No.: + 5000 5 + 5001 13 + 5002 22 + Beaty Exhibit No.: + 5039 170 + 5040 163 + 5641 170 + Brock Exhibit No.: + 5113 173 + 5114 176 + 5115 176 + Clardy Exhibit No.: + 5061 404 + 5062 404 + 5063 404 + 5064 407 + Combest Exhibit No.: + 5099 178 + 5100 180 + 5101 178 + Croy Exhibit No.: + 5051 187 + 5052 188 + 5053 188 + 5054 199 + Curry Exhibit No.: + 5313 40 + 5314 41 + Cutchshaw Exhibit No.: + 5042 207 + 5043 207 + 5044 207 + 5045 225 + 5046 209 + Daniels Exhibit No.: + 5324 228 + 5325 232 + 5326 232 + 5327 232 + Dean Exhibit No.: + 5007 423 + 5008 439 + 5009 442 + 5010 441 + 5011 445 + 5012 444 + 5136 446 + 5136-A 446 + 5137 447 + 5138 449 + Decker Exhibit No.: + 5321 50 + 5322 50 + 5323 51 + Frazier Exhibit No.: + 5086 56 + 5087 57 + Harrison Exhibit No.: + 5027 245 + 5028 245 + 5029 259 + 5030 256 + 5031 259 + Holly Exhibit No.: + 5109 264 + 5110 264 + 5111 265 + Jones Exhibit No.: + 5054 59 + 5055 59 + 5056 59 + 5057 66 + Kriss Exhibit No.: + 5106 267 + 5107 267 + 5108 268 + Lowery Exhibit No.: + 5081 272 + 5082 272 + 5083 272 + 5084 274 + 5085 277 + Martin Exhibit No.: + 5058 278 + 5059 278 + 5060 281 + Maxey Exhibit No.: + 5094 287 + 5095 288 + 5096 288 + Mayo Exhibit No.: + 5111 293 + 5112 293 + Miller Exhibit No.: + 5013 313 + 5014 313 + Newman Exhibit No.: + 5037 318 + 5038 325 + 5038-A 330 + 5038-B 330 + 5038-C 331 + 5038-D 331 + 5038-E 334 + Patterson Exhibit No.: + 5311 335 + 5312 336 + + Pierce Exhibit No.: + 5077 340 + 5078 340 + 5079 340 + Putnam Exhibit No.: + 5071 342 + 5072 343 + 5073 343 + Slack Exhibit No.: + 5116 352 + 5117 352 + Solomon Exhibit No.: + 5106 90 + 5107 91 + Steele Exhibit No.: + 5097 356 + 5098 356 + Stevenson Exhibit No.: + 5050 98 + 5051 106 + 5052 106 + 5053 107 + Talbert Exhibit No.: + 5065 122 + 5066 122 + 5067 122 + 5068 122 + 5069 123 + 5070 113 + Vaughn Exhibit No.: + 5334 371 + 5335 371 + 5336 371 + Watson Exhibit No.: + 5102 373 + 5103 373 + 5104 374 + 5105 374 + Wiggins Exhibit No.: + 5074 393 + 5075 394 + 5076 392 + Worley Exhibit No.: + 5047 379 + 5048 380 + 5049 381 + 5050 388 + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR + +The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 8:30 +p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post +Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. +Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory +staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the +provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the +rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the +Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to +take a sworn deposition from you, Chief Batchelor. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature +of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the +security surrounding the protection of Lee Harvey Oswald and any other +pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry having to +do with the death of President Kennedy. + +Chief Batchelor, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general +request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's +Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled +to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But +the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that any witness may +waive this notice. Do you now waive this notice? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name for the record? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Charles Batchelor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your age? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Fifty-eight. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Batchelor? + +Chief BATCHELOR. 1022 Franklin Avenue, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I am assistant chief of police of the Dallas Police +Department. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Since May 1, 1936. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been assistant chief? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Since January 20, 1960. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course you and I have spoken at some length earlier +this afternoon. In that conversation, we discussed your activities from +the time that you learned that President Kennedy was shot on November +22 until Saturday, November 23, when you first heard something about +the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the +Dallas County Jail. I believe you told me that sometime on Saturday +night you were confronted by some newspaper reporters with respect to +the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us, Chief Batchelor, about what time of the +night these reporters approached you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. This must have been somewhere around 7:30 or 8 o'clock +at night. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the administrative offices of the police +department at headquarters. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the third floor? On the third floor of the +police and---- + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you inside your own office? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; I was out in the outer office of the +administrative offices where the secretaries are. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how many reporters confronted you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. There were two of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who they were? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't recall who they were now. It was a rather +casual request. They asked, or they said, rather, that they were hungry +and hadn't had anything to eat and they wanted to go out to dinner, +and they didn't want to miss anything if we were going to move the +prisoner. And I told them I had no idea when they were going to move +the prisoner. + +About that time Chief Curry came up and he told them, he said, "Oh, I +think if you fellows are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning you +won't miss anything." + +So they left with that and went to eat. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other reporters around at that time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. Then later, just a very few minutes later, +Chief Curry decided, well, he might tell the rest of the people out in +the hall so they won't be hanging around, because they were apparently +doing nothing, just waiting. So he went out and told them that if they +would come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, they were not going to +move the prisoner in the meantime. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Chief Curry after he first spoke to +these two newspaper reporters? + +Chief BATCHELOR. You mean with reference to the movement of the +prisoner? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Chief BATCHELOR. He told me that he didn't know exactly when they +would move him, but he thought homicide bureau was about through with +questioning him, but he knew that Captain Fritz wanted to question him +again in the morning, and that after he had questioned him, why, we +would move him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that conversation take place? + +Chief BATCHELOR. In the administrative offices. One thing I think I +omitted. From the time that he told these reporters that if they were +to come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, he didn't think they would +miss anything, he went in and discussed it with Captain Fritz as to how +he was progressing with the interrogation and whether or not he thought +he would be through with him in the morning. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean this was between the time he---- + +Chief BATCHELOR. Before he went out and announced it to the rest of the +press. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time elapsed, would you say, from the +time he talked to the two reporters and the time he made the general +announcement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, I would estimate maybe 30 minutes; no longer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in between times, did he talk with you about the +movement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Afterwards, did he talk with you about the proposed +movement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. You mean the mechanics of moving him? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the next thing you learned about the proposed +movement of Oswald? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I just assumed that we would move him the next morning +sometime after 10 o'clock. I didn't know exactly when, and I came down +the next morning around 8 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn anything about the movement between the time +Chief Curry made the general announcement to the press and the time +that you went home that night? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any conversation around the building? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else present from the police department +when you talked with the two newspaper reporters? + +Chief BATCHELOR. There were some secretaries in the office. This was +not addressed to me particularly. They might have overheard it. We were +in the office, in the outer office nearest Chief Curry's office at this +time, and I believe Mrs. Ann Schreiber was holding down that desk. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you leave the police department on Saturday +night or Sunday morning? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It was, I believe, on Saturday night, or Sunday +morning. It was around midnight. It wasn't quite as late as it was the +night before when I left. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that about 4 hours elapsed +between the chief's press conference and the time you left? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I would say maybe not quite that long, but that is not +too far off. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, maybe this will help you a little bit to refresh +your recollection. + +Chief BATCHELOR. I want to take that back. It was earlier than that +when I left there on Saturday night. It was quite late on Friday night, +but it was around 9:30 when I left Saturday night. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you referring to this, correcting this estimate? Are +you referring to this report dated November 23d? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I think the times in this are fairly accurate. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, I want to hand you what has already been marked for +identification as Stevenson Exhibit 5053. Can you identify that? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. This was a report signed by myself, Chief +Lumpkin, and Chief Stevenson which was the result of a staff résumé +made within a few days after Oswald was shot. + +It was for the purpose of bringing together the facts and times and +elements of events in a chronological order as we all remembered them. +Some of the times, particularly with reference to the President's +arrival, which had to do with meeting with some Secret Service people +and other groups, and some of this we were a little bit hazy on at +first and we went back and checked some facts. + +As an example, we checked the Baker Hotel schedule on a room that was +reserved for a meeting that was held, so we could be sure what time +this meeting was, and things of that nature. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. The members of the police department held a meeting +at the Baker Hotel sometime over the weekend? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. The hostess committee of the city which was +hosting the President's arrival and arranging for the luncheon, it was +kind of a planning committee, and we were asked, or I was asked to one +of these meetings with some of the Secret Service people. + +So this was a reference point for some of our thinking when this +happened that we could relate some other things. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now your report indicates that you left Saturday night at +9:30 p.m. Between the time that Chief Curry made his announcement to +the press and you left at 9:30 p.m., were you confronted by any other +newspaper people about the movement of Oswald? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. As a matter of fact, we left not too long +after this because after this announcement was made, the press began to +leave themselves. The third floor became fairly quiet and there wasn't +anybody up there to speak of and it just died out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you confronted by anybody after the chief made his +announcement with respect to Oswald? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not that I recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how you arrived at the time at 9:30, stated +in the report? Was that based on your records? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That was fresh in my mind when we wrote this report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was left in charge of the police department that +night after you left at 9:30? + +Chief BATCHELOR. We have a night chief who comes on at 5 o'clock in the +afternoon and he works until 2 in the morning. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who it was that night? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, there is only one. It would have been Chief Jack +Tanner. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would then replace him at 2 o'clock in the morning? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No one. There is a, well, I say no one. There is +an inspector also who works around the clock. I don't recall which +inspector was on duty that night, but there is an inspector on duty at +night around the clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice--if you want to refer to your report on page 29, +the report indicates that you received a telephone call at your home +about 6:30 in the morning from Captain Talbert. Can you tell us what +that call was about? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. He called and informed me that he had gotten +a call, and he didn't tell me at the time where he got it; he said an +anonymous call. + +Later I learned it came from the FBI, and they in turn had called +him. That about a hundred men were going to take the prisoner Oswald +and they didn't want to get any policeman hurt. So I told him to send +a squad by Chief Curry's house and inform him about it. And at that +moment we weren't concerned about him in the jail. We were concerned +about him in the transfer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did Talbert call you rather than some other member of +the police department? + +Chief BATCHELOR. He tried to call Chief Curry and he couldn't get him +to answer his phone. I guess he was dog-tired and he couldn't get him +up. And I told him to send a squad car by and tell him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have any discussion with him at that point +who had responsibility to make this decision? Did you feel you had the +responsibility to give instructions on the basis of having received +this report that some men were going to try to go after Oswald? Did you +feel you had any responsibility to take any protective action? + +Chief BATCHELOR. At that moment? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. The way it came to me, it was my feeling that this +was to happen when we attempted to transfer him, not to come up to the +jail and get him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you received that phone call? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I got up and dressed to come down to the office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive down at the office? + +Chief BATCHELOR. About 8 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got to the office? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Chief Stevenson and I got there about the same time. I +parked my car in the basement and we walked into the city hall or into +the police station, and we noticed a television camera set up in the +areaway leading into the garage. + +I made the comment that they would have to do something about the +television camera because it was right in the path where they would +bring the prisoner out. There was no one around the camera. It was just +sitting there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you here, chief, a diagram of the inside of +the basement garage area. Do you have a pencil or anything that you can +mark with? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. The camera--can I mark here? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Chief BATCHELOR. The camera was sitting right here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put a "C" there so we know it is a camera. + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Complies.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what television station had this camera there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It was KRLD. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think it was KRLD? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I just seem to recall that in my mind the letters on +the side of the camera. I could be wrong. It could have been a WBAP +camera. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the camera manned? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people in the basement area at that +time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it that you instructed to move the camera? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't instruct anybody at that moment. We merely +commented it was going to be moved, but instructed it to be moved later +when we came back down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after you passed the camera? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Went up to the office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Went through the basement and into the elevator and +went up. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You went up to the third floor? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. To your office. Do you remember what conversation you had +with Chief Stevenson along the way? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, we were commenting about that camera and that +they were going to have to move it, and we were going to have to man +that basement. But at the moment, plans hadn't jelled as to when we +would move him. Actually, back in our minds, I suppose, was the idea +that when the time came, that the sheriff's department would probably +move him, because this is customary in moving a prisoner. They normally +come down and get the prisoner. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss with Chief Stevenson anywhere along the +way upstairs this phone call which you received from Mr. Talbert +earlier in the morning? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I think I mentioned that to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about that conversation? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Not anything especially. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he knew or Stevenson knew at the +time you saw him down in the basement that there had been such a threat? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I believe he did. I think someone from one of his +bureaus had called him, if I remember right. It was rather common +knowledge that a call like that had been received. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked to the elevator in the basement, do you +recall whether or not there were any people in the basement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't remember anybody except those people in +the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The people in the jail office were employees of the jail? + +Chief BATCHELOR. They were the jail crew that stay on all night long; +yes. Not the all night. These would have been the morning shift just +come on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At what time did that morning shift come on? + +Chief BATCHELOR. At 7 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, would you take this diagram and mark on there the +time that you believe you saw that camera? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am marking this, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March +23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 5000." + +As you walked into the building and went up to the third floor, did you +see anybody in the garage area or along the ramp or near the record +room other than police department employees? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what happened when you got up to the third floor? +What did you do? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I went to my office. I don't remember exactly what I +did. Chief Curry came in very shortly after that, and I went into this +office and we started discussing the possibility of moving the prisoner. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now will you try to remember who else was in the office +with Chief Curry when you walked in? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in after you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Stevenson came in a little bit later. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later, would you say? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, 2 or 3 minutes later, if I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody else come in after that during this +conversation? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that they did. I don't believe there +was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Lunday come in? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. Chief Lunday didn't come down until later in the +morning, I believe. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Captain Talbert join you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Talbert still on duty when you arrived at the +police department? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Captain Talbert was on duty that morning. He came on +at 7 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Talbert came on at 7, but as I understand it, Talbert +called you at your home about 6:30. How did that happen? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he is a platoon commander, and a platoon +commander comes down early before the rest of the men to get his +detail, and he had gotten this information from the night commander. +The information came into them before they came on duty, and someone +had tried to call Chief Curry. When they came down, they told me about +it and I called them and I told them to send a squad by and wake Chief +Curry up and tell him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What platoon was Talbert in charge of? + +Chief BATCHELOR. The second platoon that month. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. By "platoon," what do you mean? + +Chief BATCHELOR. The first platoon is the night platoon that comes +on theoretically at midnight. It actually comes on at 11 o'clock the +preceding day and it goes to 7 o'clock the next morning. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What area does a platoon man? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It mans the city. This is a uniform platoon. We +have three substations and they change the same way. The substations +are under the platoon commander, and each of the substations has a +lieutenant in charge of the substation who accounts to the platoon +commander, who is a captain. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell me if my understanding is right, that Talbert at this +point had operational responsibility for all the men throughout the +city? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Sort of like the executive officer on a ship or something? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what your conversation was with Chief Curry up in +his office when you first went in? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I asked him, I believe, if he had called Sheriff +Decker. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say? + +Chief BATCHELOR. He said, no, he hadn't, but he was fixing to do that. +And he did do it. He picked up the phone and called Sheriff Decker. + +This was--I got down around 9 o'clock--I mean around 8 o'clock, +correction--and it must have been somewhere around 8:30 or 8:45 when he +called Decker. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him before he called Sheriff +Decker? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Just a few minutes. He called Sheriff Decker, and +Decker said--and I was hearing only one side of the conversation, but +I gathered that Decker had told him he thought he was going to move the +prisoner. Curry said, "Well, if you want us to, we will." So he said, +"I think you've got more manpower than we have. You move him if you +will." + +Then we had discussed this threat that had been received and---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You and---- + +Chief BATCHELOR. Curry. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Curry mention the threat to Decker in the telephone +conversation? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I just don't remember whether he did or not. I would +think reasonably that he did, but I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Chief Curry talked with Decker, did he make any +mention of what time Oswald would be moved? + +Chief BATCHELOR. He didn't set any definite time. He told him that +Captain Fritz wanted to question Oswald again that morning, and that +when he got through, they would be ready to move him, and he thought +this would be sometime after 10 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Fritz begun to question Oswald when Curry was on the +telephone with Decker? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I really don't know. Shortly after we made the +decision, Curry went back to the office and they were questioning him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when Curry and Decker talked on the telephone on this +occasion, did Curry say anything about how Oswald would be moved? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I think he called him back later and told him +how after we had talked, because we hadn't made the decision to use an +armored car to move him, armored truck, until after we had determined +that he wasn't going to move him and it was going to be our job. Then +we decided to discuss the armored car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Curry have any discussion with Decker in this +first telephone conversation about the route that would be followed in +moving Oswald? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think so, because I am sure we didn't know at +that moment just exactly what we would do. He went back and talked to +Fritz about the advisability of this later, and we discussed it, and +Stevenson came up and discussed it, and our plan was to take him down +Elm Street originally. We would go out of the basement to Commerce, +Commerce to Central Expressway, north on Central to Elm, and then west +on Elm to Houston, and then go back east to the jail entrance door of +the county jail and come in. This was our original plan. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In this first telephone conversation with Decker was +Stevenson present in Curry's office? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't believe he was. I know he wasn't when we +started. He may have walked in there while I was talking to him, but I +believe Curry and I was the only ones present. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Curry finished talking with Decker and he hung up the +phone, did he say anything to you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; he said obviously Decker wants us to move him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I said we'd better start making some arrangements +then. And he said, "What do you think about getting an armored car, an +armored truck?" + +And I said, "I think I know where I can get one." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? + +Chief BATCHELOR. This was from the Armored Motor Car Service. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It is on--what is the name of that street? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In the downtown area? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It just borders on the downtown area. It is off of +Ross Avenue. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. North or south? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It is north of Ross Avenue. I should think of the name +of the street. It is an old street here, but I just can't think of it +offhand. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of the armored car company again? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Armored Motor Car Service. It is actually a Fort Worth +company who services both Dallas and Fort Worth, and they have an +office here, too. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. + +Chief BATCHELOR. After this, I told him that I thought I could get one. +I then went to the city directory to see who was in charge here, where +I might get ahold of his phone number. And I called the vice president +at his home. This was on Sunday morning. It was before he had gone to +church. It must have been somewhere around 9 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us the name of the vice president? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It was Mr. Fleming. Mr. Fleming was the vice +president, and I talked to him at his home, and he told me that he +would be glad to furnish us one. As a matter of fact, he had two trucks +which we could take our choice. One was a small truck, but would +accommodate only one passenger in the back. The other one was what they +call an overland truck, and it had seats on either side in the back and +would accommodate several people. + +And I said, "I don't know whether this will go down to the basement or +not." But I asked him how tall it was and he said he didn't know, but +he would have it measured and let me know. And I told him that I would +find out what the height of the ramp was. We have a low place in the +ramp as you go down at the bottom of the ramp, and it is only 7 feet 5 +inches tall at that point, so I found out what that height was, and I +called him back. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now at the time you first talked with Mr. Fleming, did you +indicate to him what time you would need the armored vehicle? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I told him sometime around 10 or a little after. +And he said he would get there as quickly as possible. He had to +call a crew down to man the truck. And Mr. Hall, who is their Dallas +representative here, brought the truck down with another driver driving +the small one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the truck brought down? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It was brought down--probably it wasn't at 10 o'clock, +because they didn't get there that early. It must have been closer to +11 o'clock when they finally got down there with it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say anything else to Mr. Fleming during this first +telephone conversation? Did you tell him anything about the route? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't believe that I told him the route we were +going to take, no. I know I didn't tell him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were on the telephone with Mr. Fleming, where +was Chief Curry, if you know? + +Chief BATCHELOR. He was in his office. I called Mr. Fleming from my +office. I left his office and went into my office and called him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Chief Stevenson, where was he? + +Chief BATCHELOR. He was either in his office or in Chief Curry's office +with him. We were all together. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Curry got off the first telephone call +with Decker, was there anything that Stevenson was supposed to do? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he and I both, under Chief Curry's instructions, +he said you'd better go downstairs and see what manpower you will need +to cover that basement down there. One other thing, Chief Lumpkin had +come in and he was the man I asked to find out for me how tall that +ramp was down there, what the clearance was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Lumpkin go down there before or after you called +Fleming? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I think he went down there. He called somebody down +that knew how tall it was, but that was after I talked to Fleming the +first time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does your office, Chief, maintain any records of outgoing +telephone calls? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you were talking to Fleming, between the +time that the chief talked with Decker and you talked with Fleming, +would there have been any occasion for a dispatcher to make any +particular communication to the people in the field as a result of the +conversation with Decker? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. As a matter of fact, nobody knew this. I +mean, except the few people on the staff. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that nobody would have known about the +particular contents of the conversation, but what I am getting at is, +is there any reason that somebody might have said at this point he knew +you were going to have to make a move, you'd better dispatch the men +in? You'd better send out a general call to bring in more men? + +Chief BATCHELOR. This would have been handled in a telephone +conversation with the dispatcher, yet nobody would know the real reason +for it. Talbert did have some men called in. He did have some men +called in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Talbert come to make this call in relation to the +conversation? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know, unless he was anticipating. Well, +I don't know how to say it. It had gotten on the radio and in the +newspapers and everywhere else that this was going to be at 10 o'clock, +I presume, because there was people all up and down the street, across +the street from the city hall on Commerce waiting for this thing to +happen. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they waiting there when you came in at 8 o'clock? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, there wasn't anybody there that early, but they +were down there around 10 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything that might have happened in the +ordinary course of things after Decker and Curry talked, that would +have been recorded in the police department? + +Chief BATCHELOR. About the movement of the prisoner? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am particularly referring to the movement of the +prisoner, but I am thinking of something that might pinpoint the time +in which this conversation with Decker occurred, that Curry might have +said at this point, "All right, Stevenson, bring in so many men," and +Stevenson would have told the dispatcher to send out a call, and nobody +would have known the purpose of the call, but it would fix a time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Stevenson went back after we determined we were going +to have to secure the basement and move the prisoner. He went back to +his bureau and had them send some men down there, some detectives. + +He didn't have to call them from the field. He had them back there. + +Talbert sent out and got some men, and I don't know whose direction +he did that on, but we went down there to see what manpower we would +need. And when we got there, he had them there, and where he got this +information, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after you talked with Fleming the first time, what did +you do? After you finished that telephone conversation? + +Chief BATCHELOR. We went downstairs and that is when we had instructed +them--it was Wiggins, I believe, in the jail office, to get that camera +out of there. And we instructed them--Curry went down with us, too, and +there were two cars sitting across from the jail exit door. They were +sitting in these places right here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to take a pen and mark? + +Chief BATCHELOR. And we had these cars moved [marking on exhibit]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the morning would you estimate that was? + +Chief BATCHELOR. This must have been about 9:30 or 9:15, somewhere +along in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark what you think the approximate time was +in between the two cars where you marked? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Indicates time.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other cars in the basement area at that +time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; there was several other cars. Chief Curry's car +was over here, and mine was over here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the chief's normal parking place? + +Chief BATCHELOR. These all are our normal spaces. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark those in there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.] + +Mine is over here, and I don't know whether Chief Fisher was in there +or not. I don't remember his. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put the time in between those two also? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks time.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time they were parked in there, the time that you are +talking about right now that you saw them there. That is the same time +that was on the other cars? + +Chief BATCHELOR. They were there all morning. They were parked there +and they stayed there up until we moved them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So they were there at 9:15 to 9:30? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks on chart.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other cars in the basement area? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, there were others. I don't recall just exactly. +It wasn't full. It was a Sunday, and Chief Stevenson's car was parked +over here somewhere, and Chief Lunday's, Lumpkin's car was parked here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there general traffic of police cars in and out of the +garage? + +Chief BATCHELOR. There would have been. However, on Sunday morning, +that time of day there is very little traffic in and out of there. It +is one of the quietest times. There were two or three other cars parked +in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the basement at that time, were +there news people in the basement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. When we went down in there the next time, +there was some cameras setting up here that had just been rolled in. +They weren't operative. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's focus on this trip that you took downstairs with, +was it Stevenson? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At 9:15 or 9:30. What is your best estimate of the number +of news people that were down there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. I can tell you a better estimate when we +finally went down there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it crowded or sparsely crowded? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn't crowded; no. There wasn't any big +congregation. There may be two or three people from--some television +people standing around there, trying to get set up, and they had some +cables and stuff in there, and the best I remember, we told them they +were going to have to move those cables out of there. And we instructed +Lieutenant Wiggins to move these two vehicles out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Those were the two that are on the Main Street side of the +entrance into the garage area? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, north side. And that we were going to have this +for the news media to stand behind the rail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Right where the two cars were that you wanted to be moved? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and we instructed the television people that they +would have to put their cameras on this side of the driveway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any newspeople yourself? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't myself. I was present there. I don't remember +exactly who directed, whether it was Chief Curry or Stevenson or +myself, but I mean it was three of us standing there, and we all agreed +that this needed to be done, and one of us told them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now this first trip down to the basement, what did you do +besides direct that the two cars on either side of the garage entrance +be moved, and that the camera be moved back there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. We went over in here, and there were some detectives +around in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now can you indicate in words what you are referring to on +the map? + +Chief BATCHELOR. They were along in here. There was a man over here by +this elevator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This is---- + +Chief BATCHELOR. City hall elevator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The first place that you referred to was the entrance way +in the garage. Were some people congregated there, and was there a man +at the No. 1 or No. 2 elevator? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; I didn't pay any attention to who he was. It was a +uniformed man standing over there. I later learned this was a reserve +that was over there, but I didn't pay any attention. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The uniformed man was a reserve officer? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you later learn that from? + +Chief BATCHELOR. In the course of the investigation later. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Some days after Oswald was shot? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after going over near the elevator where the uniformed +reserve officer was, what did you do next? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, we went back upstairs. And Stevenson had gone at +this time. We went down this first time to see the layout, and there +wasn't too many here. We went back upstairs, and Chief Stevenson sent +some detectives down, and brought his uniformed men in. I came down +the last time, was just before the removal of the prisoner, and in the +meantime I had contacted Mr. Fleming about the armored motor car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You came down three times? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I went up once, and then Stevenson and I came down and +looked this thing over, and then down with Curry, and then the last +time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first occasion when you were down there, you say +you saw this uniformed reserve officer. Did you later learn what his +name was? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't remember it. It is in the report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark with an "X" on the map where that reserve +officer was standing and the approximate time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. (marking). He was standing over here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record indicate that he has marked it with a +circle. This is again somewhere around 9:15 or 9:30? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Somewhere along there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn in the course of your investigation his name? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall his name. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that appear anywhere in the report, do you think? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Not in that report. It would appear in the reports +that were made by Captain Jones in the course of investigating who was +where. You have a diagram similar to this with everybody marked on it, +and he is on one of those. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been stationed there by somebody? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now I could be mistaken about the exact time I +saw him there. That is, whether it was this trip or the trip before. I +could be mistaken about it, but I do remember seeing him here when we +came down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, do you want to mark the map then what the +alternate time might be? You might write whatever time you think it was. + +Chief BATCHELOR. (marking). He was there before then, but I am talking +about when I may have seen him there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Chief, after you left the basement area on this first +trip, where did you go? + +Chief BATCHELOR. We went back upstairs to the office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Stevenson go back up with you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back up on the third floor, were there news +media personnel on the third floor? + +Chief BATCHELOR. There were some up there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, it was not what you consider a crowded +condition. + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there television cameras still there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived at 8 o'clock in the morning, were there +TV cameras up there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the TV cameras manned at 8 o'clock in the morning? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; the best I remember, they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what TV stations had cameras up there at +that time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It was KRLD and WFAA, if I remember right. And I could +be mistaken about the WFAA. It could have been WBAP. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to remember KRLD? + +Chief BATCHELOR. They were the first ones in there and they had their +truck parked outside. And also, I am pretty sure it was WFAA, because +WFAA had a truck parked on the Harwood Street side. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell at 8 o'clock in the morning if they +were shooting footage? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I couldn't tell. All the time that I remember, they +had these little viewers in the back of the thing and you could see +through them and see what was going on through them, look through the +camera. Whether they were shooting footage, there wasn't anything to +shoot that morning. It was pretty quiet. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the second trip when you came back upstairs after +your first trip downstairs, where did you go? + +Chief BATCHELOR. After the first trip, I came back up to again get in +touch with Mr. Stevenson and tell him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Fleming? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Fleming, I mean, and tell him what the height of that +thing was. Then he told me, well, I will just send both trucks down +there and you can take the one you want. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This second phone call, was Mr. Fleming at home? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Fleming had been contacted by anyone +in your office or Decker's office or anybody else prior to your first +phone call to him? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I would think not. He couldn't, because this was his +first knowledge of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us what else you said to him? What else +this conversation involved? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall saying anything other than expressing +our appreciation for his help. And he said he would send both of the +trucks down. I told him how to bring the trucks. I told him to bring +them east on Harwood--I mean on Commerce Street, and that we would back +it down the ramp so that we would be leaving the ramp in the right +direction when they pulled out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you had this second conversation with +Fleming, had you discussed with anybody the route by which you would +take Oswald to the county jail? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Nobody but Chief Curry, that I recall, and probably +Chief Stevenson. As a matter of fact, this route that they were to +take was worked out more between Stevenson and Curry and Fritz than +it was with me. My primary job here was to get the truck and get the +cars placed, and it was decided that Chief Curry would lead the car +down there, followed by a car of detectives, and then the armored car, +and then followed by another car of detectives, and then followed by +Stevenson and I in a rear car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This planned route of the movement was to go from Commerce +to Central Expressway, left to Elm Street, then down Elm Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. To Houston; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as a result of that decision, were any cars or +officers called in from the field? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Talbert called his officers in. He had called and +scattered them up. And then there was some discussion about taking it +down Main Street, and I am not too sure where I got this information, +but anyway, he sent a sergeant and moved those officers over a block to +Main Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was the route changed? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I don't know. The route was changed without my +knowing it, really. When they decided to take Oswald in an automobile +instead of the armored car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who participated in that decision? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Chief Curry, Chief Stevenson, Captain Fritz, I +believe--I was not in there when it was discussed. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After you talked to Fleming the second time what did you +do? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Then he said he would send them over, and we went +down there to get the cars lined up. This must have been, oh, probably +10:45, 10:30 to 10:45. I went downstairs and I saw the basement well +covered. We had a man at the top of the ramp on Main Street. We had +several men in the basement leading into the garage area just before +you get to the jail office, and I went through there, and Stevenson was +with me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here, Chief. I think I will pull out +another map so that we can mark it. I am going to mark this map, for +the purpose of identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March +23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit 5001." Now I want you to use this exhibit, +Chief, to indicate what you saw on this second trip downstairs, which +you indicated would be what time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I came out of the elevator into the basement and saw +a number of officers across this area right here. There were several +detectives. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark that with "X's"? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] Detective there. We walked through here. We +noticed these cameras had been moved out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about the passageway past the jail office? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Past this jail office here. I noticed that inside the +jail office there were three or four photographers inside the jail +office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, you were at the jail office door nearest to +the ramp driveway, and you looked in that door and you saw some news +people? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; photographers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize any of them? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall them. We went in there and moved them +out. We went and instructed the jail supervisor that there was to be no +one in that jail office except officers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the supervisor? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Lieutenant Wiggins. And we moved them out and we +instructed the reporters, and there were a number of them down there at +that time, by no means all of them, that--later there were, but there +was a good many--we told them they would have to stand back over here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is against the railing? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Along the railing. And they had set up two TV cameras +behind this railing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark with an "S," where the two cameras were set +up? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] Then there was another one right here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that third camera there when you came down at 10:45? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think so. That was the one sitting over there. +These were the two sitting out here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the two cameras that you placed there had been +originally near the record room? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see them near the record room? When you came +in in the morning? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. That trip down after we came down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take Exhibit 5000, and would you mark those two +TV cameras that you saw on the first trip? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you said that that time was 9:15? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now they had been moved here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Behind the railing? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Behind the railing, and this was one sitting here. +That was dead. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are marking in the entrance to the garage off the Main +Street ramp? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That camera that you are marking there in the garage? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Not operating. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, do you mean that the---- + +Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn't hooked up. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But the other two cameras which you have marked behind the +railing, were they taking shots when you walked down? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't know that they were at that time. They +didn't have any lights on, no floodlights on, and they had been told to +keep their floodlights off. They didn't turn them on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you came down on the second trip at +about 10:45, did you discuss with anybody up on the third floor where +you wanted these TV people placed and what you wanted done with the +lights? + +Chief BATCHELOR. We told the men down here, and we told the reporters +down here, just kind of announced to them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked down? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. Some of them--one of the supervisors came in and +said they couldn't get them all along here and wanted to know if it +would be all right to put them along here? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating at the bottom of the Main Street ramp? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Main Street entrance ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Between the railing and jail office? + +Chief BATCHELOR. And the wall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. They wanted to put their cameras there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; it wasn't cameras. They just wanted to stand there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you tell them? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Since we couldn't get them in there, he told them +if they would stay back, they could stay there. And there were some +officers that were stationed along there to hold them back. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But your original hope was that all of the news media +people could be in the entrance to the garage? + +Chief BATCHELOR. And they were scattered along here, too. Scattered +along the entrance into the garage itself and along here, but some of +them, there just wasn't room for them, and some got across here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain downstairs on this second trip? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think this is the second trip. I think, well, +I guess it is. But I came down here, and Stevenson and I looked this +thing over. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to have to indicate in words. + +Chief BATCHELOR. We looked over the basement to see that the security +was in order. I noticed an officer at the Main Street ramp. + +We walked up the Commerce Street ramp and noticed a crowd of people +across Commerce Street, and was told by one of the supervisors that +they were keeping them across there, and that they allowed no one on +the side next to the police station of the city hall except officers. +And the only people over here were either reservists or regular +officers. They had officers across the street. Chief Lunday told me +they had officers down at the courthouse across from the jail entrance. +Was keeping that crowd back there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as you looked along the sidewalk on the north side +of Commerce Street, from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl--from the +Commerce Street ramp to Pearl Expressway--in other words, in the +direction of the municipal building, could you see how the police +officers were spaced, and how many officers were along the north side +of Commerce Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, it is a good ways to Pearl, and the crowd didn't +extend anywhere near down to Pearl Street. It was mostly just across +from the building up to Harwood Street rather than Pearl. There weren't +that many people there. It wasn't like a parade. I guess there were, +oh, a couple of hundred people across there, perhaps. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether or not there was a police officer at +the corner of Pearl and Commerce? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. I don't remember whether there was or +not. I'm sure there must have been one stationed there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you walked out on the sidewalk and were talking about +this 10:45 trip down to the basement, what did you do? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and walked back in there. They had +parked Chief Curry's car out east of the Commerce Street ramp on the +street, double parked, parallel to some parked cars that were already +there. Then I drove my car out of the basement and parked it west of +the Commerce Street ramp exit, and I double parked it also right behind +his, the intention being that when this convoy came out, that he would +lead off and I would drop in behind Chief Curry with Chief Stevenson. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the map where Chief Curry's car was and +where your car was placed on Commerce Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. This confuses me a little here. There is not any +offset. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Unfortunately, this black line that confuses you +represents a basement wall. It doesn't represent the street. + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks on map.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you moved your car out on Commerce +Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Shortly after that just within a few minutes these +armored cars arrived. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing when the armored cars arrived? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the basement, but somebody told me down +there, shouted that these armored cars had arrived, so I came up again +out of the ramp to look at the two cars to see which one we wanted. I +looked in the inside of the larger armored car and decided that this +one is the one we would have to use because it had room not only for +the prisoner, but two guards to be placed in there with him. + +And this one--Mr. Hall, I believe is his name--I think it is Mr. Hall +that drove the truck up there. And this truck was too large or too tall +to drive clear to the foot of the basement ramp. It wouldn't clear +this ceiling at that point, so I asked Mr. Hall to back it in, and he +started backing it in, and he got the truck inside of the ramp with +all of the body inside and the cab on the outside, on the sidewalk. He +stopped and suggested that he not go to the bottom of the ramp with it +because of its weight. He was afraid that in trying to pull out, he +might kill the motor and stall it on the ramp, and suggested that since +it blocked the entrance, if we could use it from that point, he would +rather it go from that point. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the point this conversation took place, had you or +anyone else to your knowledge told Hall what route would be taken? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; we told him he would follow a lead car, and +pointed out the car that he would follow. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, did you indicate to him how soon it would +be before Oswald would be brought down? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; this truck was parked in the ramp, and I +thought that this would be a safe place to park it because on one side +of the truck next to the west wall of the ramp there was only about +12 inches of space. And between the truck and the east wall, there +was only 18 to 24 inches of space. I placed an officer between the +west wall and the truck, which totally blocked it. And I placed two +officers between the truck and the east wall, and that totally blocked +that. Then I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck and +searched it. We found a soft drink bottle in the truck, which we took +out. I found a loose bolt lying on the floor, which I took out. + +There was a device on the back side of the truck which was sort of a +gauge and a lever which I didn't understand what it was and I asked +Mr. Hall what that was, and he said it was an emergency brake in the +event something happened to the driver, that whoever was in the back of +the truck could pull that lever and stop the truck. We got these items +out of the truck and took them away, left the back doors of the truck +open to receive the prisoner, and then I went back down to the foot of +the ramp and waited, and in a few minutes shortly after the arrival of +the truck, Chief Stevenson came down, and this was, oh, nearly 11:30. +It was just a matter of minutes before--and told me of the change +of plans, and that they were going to send the truck in convoy down +through Elm Street, and that the car carrying---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean Main Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; Elm Street, and that the truck carrying Oswald +and a car of detectives would drop out of the convoy, out on Main +Street and drive down Main Street by themselves. In other words, the +truck was to be a decoy, and the lead car and all the other cars would +follow it on down Elm Street, while the car carrying the prisoner would +go down Main Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What security was there going to be? + +Chief BATCHELOR. We had moved the officers over from Elm Street to Main +Street on the corner. The only security would have been a car carrying +detectives, following the car carrying the prisoner and detectives. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How were the officers moved, by a radio dispatcher, or was +somebody sent out? + +Chief BATCHELOR. A sergeant was sent out, a three-wheeler. Talbert had +it done. I don't recall who did that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know at this point whether there was an +officer stationed at the corner of Main and Commerce? Main and Pearl +Expressway? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't know whether there was or not. + +(Short recess had.) + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't we state this for the record, that we have had +a recess and an off-the-record discussion between Mr. Griffin and +Chief Batchelor, and so that the record may be clear about where the +policemen who were to guard the route which was originally planned for +the transfer of Oswald, on the streets of the city of Dallas, I will +let Chief Batchelor at this time explain where they were originally to +be stationed, and where they were moved to. + +Chief BATCHELOR. They were originally stationed along Elm Street, and +later were moved to Main Street where the prisoner would actually go. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that before we took the recess that I was asking +you if at the time that you were down in the basement and examining the +armored car, you were aware that a man was or was not stationed at the +corner of Main and Pearl Expressway? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I do not know. I was not aware. I hadn't given that +any thought at the time. Actually, Main and Expressway would pose no +traffic problem of a turning movement, at that point, because Pearl +Expressway, which is a one-way street, and the convoy would have +been next to the curb, and it would pose no problem at this point, +trafficwise. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Chief Stevenson came downstairs and told you that the +route had been changed, where did he tell you that the caravan would +turn off Commerce Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. On Central Expressway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When it turned left on Central Expressway, where would it +next turn? + +Chief BATCHELOR. The convoy would go to Elm Street, but the prisoner +and a car of detectives would turn off at Main. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you discuss with him the reasoning behind this +decoy? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I merely asked him why the change, and he said they +decided to change it up in the Homicide Bureau in a discussion with +Chief Curry, because if anyone attacked, they would have the prisoner +in a car separate from the convoy and the public would not know this, +and they thought this would be a wise move. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you all were aware that the TV cameras were going to +be focusing on the car or the vehicle that Oswald was placed in, didn't +you? The people in the downtown streets wouldn't be able to see that, +but there were also newsmen down there who were broadcasting and they +would be able to tell people listening in on the radio what car? + +Chief BATCHELOR. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with +moving the prisoner. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't mean to argue with you, chief. + +Chief BATCHELOR. I didn't make the decision and I don't know whether it +was wise or not. It is a moot question now. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, what next happened after you talked with Chief +Stevenson about this change in plan? + +Chief BATCHELOR. This happened when he told me about it, just moments +before they actually brought him down, and he told me they were +bringing a car up on the ramp, two cars up on the ramp, one to carry +the prisoner and one to carry the detectives. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back one bit here. You stated that you came +down. This one time you are talking about was an episode where you +went through the armored car, and this would have been your third trip +downstairs? + +Chief BATCHELOR. And my last one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And your last one. Now the first trip that you came +down the stairs was when you saw these reserve officers over by the +elevators? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Actually, that was the second trip down, I believe. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been about what time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, probably 10 or 10:15, somewhere along in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So that the trip that we have been referring to +in the past, the 10:45 trip, is really most clearly distinguished by +the---- + +Chief BATCHELOR. I may be a little mixed up on my time, but the last +trip, the trip we are talking about when we searched the armored car +and put that in place, that was fairly close to the movement of the +prisoner, and I would say somewhere around 10:45 to 11 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that happened somewhere around 11:20? + +Chief BATCHELOR. About 10:45. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you never went back upstairs, from the time that you +moved your automobile up onto Commerce Street and the time that you +searched the armored car? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; Chief Stevenson did, but I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were downstairs from the time +that you walked down and moved your car out on the street and Oswald +arrived? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Possibly 30 minutes or 35. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after you finished examining the armored car and +you talked with Chief Stevenson, did you get a chance to look at the +placement of the news personnel, the news media people in the basement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Shortly before he came down, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now looking toward the Main Street ramp, how many rows +deep, if there was more than one row at all, were the policemen who +were blocking the Main Street ramp? + +Chief BATCHELOR. How many rows deep were the policemen? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm sorry, the news people, if you understand what I mean? + +Chief BATCHELOR. There was about, as I remember it, about two deep +along there. Some places there might have been a third man behind, but +most about two deep. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you come here and mark along the Main Street ramp +about how deep these people were? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marking.] There weren't many along there because +there were cameras there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you estimate were in that area there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, there couldn't have been too many in that +particular area there. It is only 15 feet wide, maybe 20 or 25 in +there, maybe 30. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald was brought down, where were the +rest of the news people placed? + +Chief BATCHELOR. They were along here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is blocking the garage entrance? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many people would you say were in that area? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. Altogether there must have been, gee, +we had around 70 policemen in that basement altogether, and there must +have been 60 or 70 reporters and photographers and press people. They +were fairly deep across here. But this is wider and they were two or +three deep across there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark in there where you have indicated? + +Chief BATCHELOR. [Marks chart.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say that they were deeper across the entrance to +the garage than they were blocking the Main Street ramp, or were they +about the same? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I wasn't paying too close attention to how deep they +were. There was more than one line of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There was? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they were two to three deep across here [marking]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there police officers in there also? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; there was police officers intermingling all along +here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you given any instructions to the police officers up +to this point as to how they should stand in relationship, where they +should be facing? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after talking with Chief Stevenson, what next happened? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Almost immediately the car containing Lieutenant +Pierce and I believe Sergeant Maxey pulled out of here, and these +people had to step back, and they pulled out, and the detective cars +were pulled here in on the ramp and backed into position. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Chief, at this point, just before Oswald was brought down, +were there any automobiles in the portion of the garage which would be +the north half of the garage, do you recall? + +Chief BATCHELOR. As I recall it, there were one or two vehicles parked +back in here, police vehicles. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were there any police vehicles, and if you don't +have any recollection, state that. Do you recall if there were any +police vehicles along the railing of the Main Street ramp? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. If there were, they were back from +this entrance. There weren't any in the immediate entrance to the jail +door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there were any people other than the +people manning these TV cameras, behind the railing? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that. I don't think there were, because +these people here went up to just about where the cameras were. This +curved a little bit around here. It wasn't just a straight line. It +would curve a little bit like this, then, but they were standing away +from the front of those cameras, because those cameras were on a tripod +at a level on the floor, which was lower than this ramp level. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as Pierce and Maxey's car went up the ramp, did you +watch it go up the ramp? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as it went up the ramp? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. I was up here. I was more concerned +with this truck here and getting this truck out of there when this +thing started. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch Pierce and Maxey's car go through the line +of newsmen? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I saw it. I wasn't---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you paying any attention? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Not particularly. I do remember seeing it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pierce and Maxey's car broke through the line of +newsmen, what do you remember next happening? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I remember backing these or pulling up these two +detective cars that were to carry Oswald, and one detective pulled up +here a little ways, and he had to pull up a little further so this one +could get up, and they then backed up. And this one had hardly gotten +in place, barely had stopped, when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, are you sure--how certain are you that +these two detective cars pulled out after Pierce and Maxey? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think Pierce and Maxey could have gotten out +with those two detective cars where they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Sounds pretty good to me. + +Chief BATCHELOR. While they were in place, they couldn't have pulled +around here, because they were blocking this entrance here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who drove those two detective cars? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall. Men out of the Homicide Bureau, but I +don't know which ones. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they listed in this report, do you recall? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't think they are listed in that report. I am +pretty sure they are not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Detective Brown? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Where do you see that? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It is on page 32. "Stevenson then proceeded across the +driveway to the entrance to the garage where Detective C. W. Brown, +driving one car, and Detective Dhority, driving the second car, was +preparing to pull the cars behind the armored car." Do you remember +Brown or Dhority walking to the cars in the basement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I wasn't directing my attention to them at the moment +they did that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know or have you heard whether they were sitting +in those cars for a long period of time, or a few minutes, or whether +they---- + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know, but I imagine so. I think they came down +for that express purpose, after this plan was changed. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing as the rear car--that is, the car +closest to the exit from the jail office---- + +Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing over in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place an "X" on the map where you were standing? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, I don't remember exactly where I was standing +at the time that they pulled those cars up, but I think I was standing +over here, and then moved to this position as they were backing in, +because I had been talking to Chief Stevenson just about that time, and +we were talking right up in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now at the time you heard the shots fired, would you +place on this map where these two automobiles were and where you were +standing? + +Chief BATCHELOR. One car was right here, approximately, and the other +car was ahead of it, and I am not drawing this in very good proportion, +but this is the order they were in, and I was standing, and this I know +in good order, because I was standing about midway of this thing, which +was along about the back fender of this car, that I was standing right +along here. But these cars were larger than that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you cross out that Ford car there and redraw it +up where it was? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing here, and this one was back here more +in this position. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put your name where you have made the circle? + +Chief BATCHELOR. (Marks on chart.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember what other officers or people were +around you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't remember who. There was a whole bunch of +people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened when you heard the shot fired? What did you +do? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, actually before the shot was fired, when I was +standing along here, and when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." I +started to go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on +it, the back doors so it could take off. And I turned to do that when I +heard the shot. I hadn't taken over a step or two over to the door when +he was shot. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I turned around and looked back and came over there. +There was a whole group of people had him down. It was a big---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby down? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Had Ruby down. They had pulled Oswald into the jail +office, and then pulled Ruby in behind him. + +I went into the jail office to look at them, and they had Ruby down on +the floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's focus on the time when they had Ruby down on the +ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. Where did you stand at +that point? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I stood off in the crowd. I didn't even see what was +going on. There was such a crowd. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Ruby say anything at that point? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not when I walked right up there to it. But +I did hear someone shout, "Jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was +before they got him down. I mean, this was almost simultaneous with the +shot. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow Ruby and Oswald into the jail office then? + +Chief BATCHELOR. After a little bit, a minute or two after, I remained +in the jail office and asked Lieutenant Wiggins if they had called an +ambulance, and he said they had. + +I walked over and looked at Oswald, and this intern had come in and was +giving him some pressure on his lower rib section. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Ruby at that time? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I saw him on the floor. I couldn't see him too well. +There was several men on top. He was still struggling in the jail +office, but they had already gotten the gun away from him and they were +trying to get him handcuffed and get him down and laying still, but he +was fighting them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don't recall anything he said. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the officers say anything to him? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Just a few minutes. The ambulance came almost +immediately. It was just--I walked out of there before the ambulance +came and walked back. Someone shouted right after this happened, and +there was a lot of confusion, and someone shouted, "Don't let anybody +out." + +There were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were +frightened. I suppose they were running to telephones, but they tried +to run up the Main Street ramp, and I remember very clearly the officer +at the top of the ramp pulling his gun and said, "Get back down." + +They turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped +through the corridor. Not out the ramp, but went out through the +corridor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the corridor that leads from the record room to +Commerce Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Well, yes. They escaped out the corridor off the +hallway that leads in front of the jail office into the Records Bureau, +and then to Commerce Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they escape out Commerce Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know where they went from there, whether they +went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. But there +would have been nobody over there that heard the command not to let +them out. This was kind of a spontaneous command. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What percentage of people would you say got out of the +basement? News media people got out of the basement that way? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know. They scattered pretty quickly. Still a +lot hung around after it was over. I would say half, at least, got out +that way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken +upstairs in the elevator? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Was I in the jail office when he was taken upstairs? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I went as soon as the ambulance came and got him, +I ran up the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that +it was blocking the entrance to the ramp, and then I left and went +upstairs and told Chief Curry what happened. By the time I got up +there, somebody called him and he knew what happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do next? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Lord, I don't remember what I did next. We sat there +kind of dumbfounded for a while. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time during the rest of the day when you +talked with Ruby? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I never did talk with Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come in +about how Ruby got down into the basement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. In the course of the next day or two we heard lots of +rumors that he had a press card. This was the prevailing rumor, that he +had a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly +close after the time of, the time Oswald was shot. What did you do +in connection with attempting to find out how Ruby got down in that +basement? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know that I did anything specifically to +try to find that out. We began to think in terms of an overall +investigation into the matter. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Chief Curry convene any sort of meeting or gather +together any of the top officers to discuss this? + +Chief BATCHELOR. He discussed it with Lumpkin and Stevenson and I. I +don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just--I am +sure it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there +were obvious things that would take place first, and that would be the +investigation, that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of Ruby +himself. + +We even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had +borrowed money from a bank and Ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we +ran a check at every bank in Dallas, but the banks where this--the most +probable one was the Republic Bank. We ran a check there by sending +the name of everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and +having them check for us and see if they had any notes on these people. + +We also checked with, I believe, the Mercantile, and we checked with +the Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Co., because Ruby happened to live out in +that area. + +We didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found +anything to date. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This meeting or a little conference that you referred to +that you and Curry and Lumpkin and Stevenson had, about how long after +Oswald was shot did this occur? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't remember whether that was that day or the next +day, but it resulted in Chief Curry pulling some men out of the special +service division with Captain Jones in charge, and we had about six men +on the team besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this, +which was in terms of locating all of the people that were assigned +down there, locating as many of the press as they knew were down +there, and getting statements from all of these people. Then also we +discovered this matter of this money order, and we followed that thing +out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you personally talk with Officer Dean at any time on +the Sunday that Oswald was shot? After Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk +to Dean? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Dean said something to me, and I don't remember +whether it was Sunday or not. I believe it was Sunday afternoon, +sometime, or evening, to the effect that he had been up and talked to +Ruby with Mr. Sorrels, I believe was present there, and that Ruby told +him he came down that ramp. + +He told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped +and talked with the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to +them, he walked down there. + +There is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers +that went out other than maybe to speak to them. I mean, but it appears +evident now that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet +from the entrance is when he got in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Dean made this statement to you, did you know that he +had spoken to a newspaper reporter also? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this conversation you had with Dean +was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the +name of Newman that day? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to talk to Officer Vaughn on that +day? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; over on top of the ramp? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; as a matter of fact, I never have talked with +Vaughn. And I wasn't talking to Dean in the nature of interrogating. He +voluntarily told me this. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present when Dean told you that? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall that there was. I don't think there was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this conversation occurred? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was there in the city hall, but I don't +remember exactly where. It was probably up on the third floor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to mark for identification, "Dallas, Tex., +Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5002." + +Can you tell us briefly what that is, Chief? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which +has the names of all the members of the police department in it and +their assignments for the month of November 1963. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were +employed in the department on the day that Ruby shot Oswald? + +Chief BATCHELOR. It would be, with the exception of any few that might +have been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the +month, been transferred from one division to another, which occurs +frequently. But for the most part it is correct. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or, also a few that had been hired? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Or a few that had been hired during that month. They +are not on there; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have spoken at some length during the last +day, not counting the length of time we spent here. Do you recall that +in your office this morning we talked some about security measures in +the protection of the President? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any suggestions that you would make as to how, +as a result of your experience, you think the President might be more +effectively protected? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't know how you would correct this exactly. One +of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a +short time to do some of the planning that we had. + +We didn't know until just one afternoon, actually, in terms of Love +Field security, actually where the President's plane would be placed. + +We didn't know until 2 days before his arrival what the parade route +would be. This posed some problem in terms of assignment of personnel +and properly instructing personnel as to what their procedures should +be. + +I think one thing that would be helpful would be for a standard general +procedure of things that those responsible for protection of the +President could put out to police departments such as certain standard +types of coverage that would always apply. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any example from your own experience where +this would have been useful on this unfortunate trip? + +Chief BATCHELOR. One thing you need in a situation like this is +explicit written instructions to officers as to such things as watching +the crowd rather than the President. + +This is a general accepted thing in most police departments. + +Sometimes you have new personnel that comes in and they need to be +told this specifically. We had an instance in which we were asked to +guard all of the overpasses, railroad and vehicular, and we instructed +the officers verbally that they were to let no unauthorized personnel +on these overpasses. But there was no definition of what "authorized +personnel" was. + +And in one case, there were people on an overpass which the President +had never reached. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the triple railroad overpass at the base of Elm +Street? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; they would have just gone under, or would have +gone under momentarily had he not been shot. + +There were a number of railroad track workers on this overpass, and +we had officers up there, but they considered them to be authorized +personnel because they worked for the railroad, and they were all lined +along there watching for the parade which never did go under them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many persons do you remember having been up there? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I was not there. I heard about it. I understand there +were probably 10 or 12 people up there. But actually, there should +be nobody over the immediate route the President goes under. But +there are certainly, there seems to me, certain generally accepted +procedures that, and certain general types of security that every +police department ought to be aware of, that is standard operating +procedure, plus whatever specific thing that the various circumstances +might want done; some sort of suggested procedure on their part, with +it published, that might be helpful to police organizations. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go off the record here a moment. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go on the record on this. + +We have been speaking off the record about other suggestions which +Chief Batchelor has, and one of the things that he has pointed out +is that there is not enough advance notice of what the Presidential +route is going to be to enable the police department to satisfactorily +handle the administrative problems of selecting people to place them at +particular intersections. + +Do you want to add any more to that statement that I have made of what +you have just told me? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No. I realize there is another aspect on this too, +on the part of the Secret Service, that they want, that is, that they +don't want too much advance notice to the public. This is the reason I +am not criticizing. + +(Further discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go on the record and ask you a question here. Do +you think, Chief, it would have been possible to station people in the +middle of the downtown block with the instructions to watch various +buildings in a periphery of their vision. + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. This would be feasible. We did have men in the +middle of the downtown, several of them in each block, they were +primarily watching the crowd of people rather than the windows. + +When you are in an area of skyscrapers and you are standing right at +the foot of these skyscrapers, you couldn't see windows too far up more +than just a few floors, but we did have men in the middle of the block, +but they weren't instructed to watch the windows as much as they were +to watch the people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these men actually have any specific instructions as +to how they were to go about watching the people or the windows? + +Chief BATCHELOR. We had experienced detectives down there in the +immediate block watching in the crowd and then we had some reservists, +too, and we had instructed our people in the course of training that +when somebody comes by, that you are supposed to secure, that you are +not supposed to watch that person, but supposed to watch the crowd. + +Whether all of them remember this or not--when you don't get a +President here but every number of years, why you don't know. That is +the reason I think that in some places where they have these kind of +people frequently, this is probably routine. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have men stationed in the neighborhood of Elm +and Houston and the School Book Depository that were instructed to be +watching the crowds? + +Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don't think anyone was stationed below +Houston Street. At that point, I don't know whether any crowd along +that particular point was even anticipated or not. It was away from the +business section and it was not any buildings on either side of the +street there, actually. + +The School Book Depository faces on Elm Street, which is parallel to +the Elm Street ramp that goes under the triple underpass. + +It is a couple of hundred feet across from the street to that Building +and there wasn't anybody placed down there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall that there was a police car stationed +either along Elm Street or Houston near that intersection? + +Chief BATCHELOR. There was a police car that preceded the two of them, +as a matter of fact, that preceded the Presidential convoy. One was a +quarter of a mile ahead and one was back of that one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am referring to a stationary car at the intersection. + +Chief BATCHELOR. No; there wasn't one, that I know of. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, I think that is it. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR RESUMED + +The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 12:30 +p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post +Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Leon D. +Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, I think that you made a deposition before +Burt Griffin, a member of the advisory staff of the President's +Commission, now on March 23, 1964, is that not a fact, sir? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think also that you have now read the transcript of that +deposition and that you have made certain corrections of typographical +errors in pen and ink and by initialing those. You advise me now that +you are willing to sign the deposition except that there are two +statements, one on page 199, and one on page 219, that you wish to +clarify, or change; is that correct? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now chief, are you willing to consider this deposition as a +continuation of the deposition taken by Mr. Griffin on the 23d? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing also to waive any notices that you would be +entitled to before we begin this continuation of the deposition? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider yourself to be under the same oath that you +were at the time you made the deposition before Mr. Griffin? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, I understand that you wish to comment, +or change the following: On page 199, lines 9 and 10 read as follows: + +"Chief BATCHELOR. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with +moving the prisoner." + +Now, Chief, what do you say about what I have just read? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That statement was inadvertently incorrect. I wished +to say that I had nothing to do with changing the plans of moving the +prisoner. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to page 219, we find that lines 11 through 14 +read as follows, to wit: + +"I don't know how you would correct this exactly. 'One of the problems +that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do +some of planning that we did'". + +Do you wish to make a comment about that statement, sir? + +Chief BATCHELOR. I don't recall the exact language I used in the +statement, but the sentence is grammatically incorrect. It should read: + +"One of the problems that we experienced was the fact that we had such +a short time to do some of the planning that we had to do." + +Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, Chief, have you found that the +transcription of your deposition is correct? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Then, when these notes concerning the +corrections have been typed out I think you will be in a position to +sign the original deposition, now, making a notation that you signed it +approving all except such as has been corrected this morning? + +Chief BATCHELOR. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then you will also sign the second deposition, as it +were, which is this morning's deposition? + +Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CHIEF JESSE E. CURRY + +The testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April +15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Jesse E. Curry of the Dallas +Police Department. + +Mr. Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory +staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under +the provisions of Executive Order of the President, No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and +the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission and in +conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have +been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Curry. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular, as to you, Mr. Curry, the nature of the inquiry today +is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any +other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the +security of Oswald, the transfer of Oswald, and so forth. + +Now, Mr. Curry, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of an +informal request---- + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. By the Commission's General Counsel to appear here. It is +my duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, +every witness who appears before the Commission is entitled to a 3-day +written notice before his deposition can be taken. The rules also +provide, however, that the 3-day written notice can be waived if a +witness wishes to waive it and go ahead and testify, so I ask you now +if you are ready and willing to testify now and are willing to waive +the 3-day notice? + +Mr. CURRY. I am. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be +sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before +the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CURRY. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name? + +Mr. CURRY. Jesse Edward Curry. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please, sir? + +Mr. CURRY. Fifty years of age. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? + +Mr. CURRY. 2508 Loving Avenue. + +Mr. HUBERT. Dallas? + +Mr. CURRY. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Chief? + +Mr. CURRY. Chief of Police, Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been occupying that position? + +Mr. CURRY. Since January 20, 1960. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department +altogether? + +Mr. CURRY. Since May 1, 1936. + +Mr. HUBERT. And how did you begin? + +Mr. CURRY. I began, I believe, as a traffic police officer--well, I +worked in a squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a +traffic officer for several months. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old were you when you began? + +Mr. CURRY. Twenty-three--I lacked a few months being twenty-three. + +Mr. HUBERT. What education have you, Chief? + +Mr. CURRY. I graduated from the Dallas high schools--Dallas Technical +High School. I did not go to college. I studied a short time--optometry +a short time after that, after graduating from high school. + +Mr. HUBERT. What employment did you have between leaving high school +and joining the police force? + +Mr. CURRY. I worked a short time for Vitalic Battery Co., as I recall, +and at the time I entered the police field, I owned a small cleaning +and pressing shop out in East Dallas, which I owned and operated. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you married? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; I am. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have a family? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state who they are, how many children? + +Mr. CURRY. I have three step-children--no, it's two step-children, one +son of my own and one daughter of my own. + +Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of +Dallas? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; I moved here when I was less than a year old. + +Mr. HUBERT. It appears to me from what you have said that you began at +the bottom of the ranks in the police department? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And would it be fair to say that you worked your way +through, as it were? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Up the line? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I worked in practically every assignment the +police department has, and through civil service examinations was able +to gain promotions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police, +captain of police, inspector of police, and inspector of police is the +highest civil service rank obtainable. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you attain that rank, Mr. Curry, roughly? + +Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 1951, along about that as +inspector--I don't recall exactly. + +Mr. HUBERT. Does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system +involve special studies? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, you must make some special studies in order to +compete with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through +examination. During these years I won a fellowship to Northwestern +University Traffic Institute and attended that school in 1945-46. I +graduated from there. In 1951 I was sent to the FBI National Academy in +Washington, D.C., and I graduated from that school. + +Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions +you have attended. + +Mr. CURRY. Well, I've been to several schools conducted in the Dallas +area. I have been to 2 weeks training school by the department of +public safety in Austin. I have been to several schools conducted by +Southern Methodist University and the FBI here in the Dallas area +through the years. I have also taken correspondence training courses +from the City Managers' Association, and I believe that's about the +extent of my training. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you in service during the war, sir? + +Mr. CURRY. I was in what was called the CPA, Civilian Pilot Training. +It was a program that was open to people who were over combat age--in +the Air Force. We did not receive any pay when we first went in. We +volunteered our services and we were taught to fly. We attended ground +training school; I was assigned to Gainesville Junior College and flew +out of Gainesville, out of the airfield there. I was then sent to TCU +in Fort Worth where I continued my studies at TCU and flew out of +Meacham Field, and then I was sent to Amarillo Air Force Base. We were +not on the base, but we were assigned in that area and we waited there +for, it seemed to me like 2 or 3 weeks and never received any training. +We were then notified that we had an opportunity to either ask for +release or discharge from the service because we understood--because of +an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be sent +to various branches of the Air Force for various assignments. + +At that time, I, along with my buddy whose father advised us that he +thought it was best for us to get out--we applied for a discharge, and +I was discharged, so I was in this about 11 months, at which time I was +discharged and I returned to Dallas and I reported back to my draft +board, and that's the last contact that I had with my draft board. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you went back to your duties? + +Mr. CURRY. I went back to my duties as police officer. I was assigned +as a detective at the time, and I worked for undercover a few months; +I was then assigned as a sergeant in the traffic division; promoted to +lieutenant of the traffic division; subsequently promoted to captain of +the traffic division. I was then assigned to a police training school. +I attended the FBI school then. + +Upon my return from the FBI school, I completed an examination for +promotion to inspector of police and was able to obtain the No. 1 +position and was promoted to inspector of police, and assigned to the +police training school. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, that examination and that promotion was civil service? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Under the laws of Texas? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And perhaps it would be better if you would just continue +testifying--to tell us the various stages. + +Mr. CURRY. I was assigned to the various training schools, had charge +of the police training, and also personnel investigation. I was then +appointed assistant chief of police in charge, which assignment is +actually the second in command of the police department--that was in +October of 1953. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, that is a non-civil-service position? + +Mr. CURRY. That's an appointive job. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who appointed you to that job? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, the chief appointed me, I'm sure, on the approval of +the city manager. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was the chief at that time? + +Mr. CURRY. Carl F. Hansson [spelling], H-a-n-s-s-o-n. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on. + +Mr. CURRY. I served in that capacity until Chief Hansson resigned, and +at that time I was appointed chief of police. I was appointed acting +chief of police in December and when his name was removed from the +rolls in January 1960, I was appointed chief of police. + +Mr. HUBERT. He resigned voluntarily? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was it because of old age? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't know exactly why he resigned. He left us to go +as executive secretary of the Citizens Traffic Commission here in +Dallas, and he served in that capacity for some year or so and resigned +from that capacity, and then he went as chief of the Mesquite Police +Department and remained there a year or two and at the present time is +in an advisory capacity at Richardson, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were second in command at the time you were +appointed chief of police? + +Mr. CURRY. That's true. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you had been actually for some time? + +Mr. CURRY. About 7 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was the city manager who appointed you? + +Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull, I believe he was at the time I was appointed. +He was when I was appointed chief of police, because I recall--I +don't recall exactly who was city manager at the time I was appointed +assistant chief. I believe Chuck Ford, I believe, was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, as you said, the assistant chief of police and +the chief of police, are non-civil service? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you still maintain civil service status in the event of +a reduction? + +Mr. CURRY. In a reduction? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. CURRY. In rank; you are supposed to return to the rank where you +were when appointed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you, of course, as chief of police, have under you a +number of assistant and deputy chiefs of police and then captains of +the various divisions and so forth. Who made those appointments? + +Mr. CURRY. They are under civil service except for the assistant chief +and the deputy chiefs and I make those appointments. + +Mr. HUBERT. You made those appointments? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now, I didn't make all the appointments, because some +of them were in those positions when I was appointed chief. I appointed +Batchelor as assistant chief of police and I appointed Fisher, who is +in charge of radio patrol, as deputy chief of police, and I think the +rest of them were in their positions when I was made chief and I left +them there. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had the authority to move them, I take it, but you +chose to leave them there? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, everybody else was in his position by +virtue of civil service? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the time when +the Dallas Police Department first arrested Oswald, and, I assume, +became responsible for him and for his security. I believe that it was +that he was arrested at the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And almost immediately moved to the Dallas Police +Department offices? + +Mr. CURRY. So I understand; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what you know about the matter from that +point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative +fashion. I will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait +until the end to fill in. We will see how it works out. Briefly, what +we want to know is what you know about the whole thing. + +Mr. CURRY. Well, on November 22, I was in the lead car of the +Presidential caravan. With me were Secret Service Winston Lawson and +Forrest Sorrels, and the sheriff of Dallas County, Bill Decker, and +we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of Dallas, +and which is near Stemmons Expressway--it was necessary for us to move +to Elm Street in order to get on the Stemmons Expressway to get the +President's caravan down to the Trade Mart where they were going to +have a luncheon. + +I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, +and I didn't know--I didn't know exactly where this report came from, +whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more +reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw +some commotion in the President's caravan and realized that probably +something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this +time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up +beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, +"Yes," and I said, "Has somebody been shot?" And he said, "I think so." + +So, I then ordered him to take us to Parkland Hospital which was the +nearest hospital, so we took the President's caravan then to Parkland +Hospital and they were--the President, the Vice President and the +Governor--were taken into the hospital and I remained at the hospital +for--oh--some hour or so. + +At about 1:15 that day--this first incident occurred about 12:30 or so, +and about 1:15 I was notified that one of our officers had been shot, +and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the +hospital. + +At that time we didn't know who shot him. I was just told it was in +Oak Cliff. I was still at the hospital at this time and I was told by +some of the Secret Service people, I don't recall who, to get my car +ready and another car ready to take the President--we were informed +that President Kennedy had expired--and we were asked to have two +automobiles standing by to take President Johnson to Love Field. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me stop you and ask you this: When you had the news of +the death of Tippit, or the shooting of Tippit, did you associate that +in any way with the President's assassination? + +Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go on. + +Mr. CURRY. In a little while President Johnson came out, and some of +his aides, and got into my car and some of his other people came and +got into another vehicle driven by Inspector Putnam of the Dallas +Police Department, and we were instructed to go to Love Field, to +get there by the nearest route with the least amount of noise, but +to go there as quickly as we could. So I drove to Love Field and +the President got out of the car with his group and went aboard the +Presidential plane. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any idea about what time you left the hospital +to go to Love Field? + +Mr. CURRY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the +time you arrived there? + +Mr. CURRY. It seemed we were there about 30 minutes at the hospital--30 +minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after 12:30, so that +would have been around a little after 1:15, I believe. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was a little after 1:15 that you started to move to Love +Field? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you know Jack Ruby prior to that time? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen him? + +Mr. CURRY. If I had ever seen him, I didn't know it. I might have seen +him but I didn't recognize him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, now, you know who Jack Ruby is; you have seen +him? + +Mr. CURRY. I have seen him in the courtroom. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether or not among any of the people that +you saw at the hospital anywhere, whether Jack Ruby was at the hospital? + +Mr. CURRY. If he was, I didn't know it. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's what I'm asking--you didn't see the man that you now +know to be Jack Ruby? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reporter from the Washington, D.C., newspaper +who is called Seth Kantor? + +Mr. CURRY. I believe he used to be in Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. I believe he was, and moved on to Washington. + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him out there? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't recall who all I saw out there--I saw a number of +people out there. If I saw him, I don't recall it. I very easily could +have seen him out there. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it follows from what you said before, of course, that +you did not see Kantor with Ruby? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, let's go back then to the point we left off, and that +is to say--the arrival at Love Field. + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we arrived at Love Field with the President and +his party and they got out of the car and got on the plane. + +I was informed by someone a little later that Judge Sarah Hughes was +coming out to swear in the President, to give him the oath of office, +and we stood by and when she arrived I escorted her onto the plane and +into the presence of the President and was there while she gave to him +the oath of office. Immediately after he was given the oath of office, +as I recall it, the President said, "Let's get out of here." And I left +the plane with Judge Sarah Hughes and returned to my car and in the +meantime while we were at Love Field, Mrs. Kennedy and some others came +and they loaded the casket onto the plane and she went into the plane. +After I got off the plane, I talked to Mrs. Cabell and to Mayor Cabell +and I waited until the planes left Love Field, and then I went to the +city hall. + +Now, as best I recall, it was probably around 4 o'clock when I got +to the city hall, and I started to my office on the third floor, and +when I got off of the elevator there I could see that there was just +pandemonium on the third floor. There was dozens and dozens of newsmen +just crammed into the north end of the corridor. There were television +cables running from down the halls, from the administrative office, and +I went to my office and talked with some of my staff--I don't recall +who all was in there at the time--about what was going on, and I was +told by someone, I believe Chief Stevenson that they had a man named +Oswald whom they believed to be the murderer of Officer Tippit, and +they had been questioning him in Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did they advise you at that time, or did they know to your +knowledge that he was also a suspect in regard to the assassination of +President Kennedy? + +Mr. CURRY. Someone mentioned that he was also a strong suspect in the +assassination of the President. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was at that same time? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you got back there? + +Mr. CURRY. After I returned from Love Field. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Captain Fritz was carrying on the +interrogation? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; that's his responsibility, to investigate murders, +robberies, and rapes, and extortions and things of that kind. + +Mr. HUBERT. It's fair to say, then, that the interrogation of Oswald +with respect to either the death of Tippit or of President Kennedy was +in accordance with the normal procedures of the department? + +Mr. CURRY. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long had Captain Fritz been in that position, sir? + +Mr. CURRY. A number of years--I don't recall exactly when he was +appointed to his position with the homicide division--probably 15 years +anyway. + +I had received a call from the FBI or someone in the FBI, I don't +recall whether it was Shanklin or who, and they were requesting that a +representative of their Bureau be allowed to be present when Oswald was +interviewed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you agree to that? + +Mr. CURRY. I called Fritz in his office and told him we had this +request, and Fritz said, "Okay; we'll let them in." + +At that time I understood there was a representative from Secret +Service already in the room and the representative from the FBI went +in--one or two FBI representatives. + +It was some time before I ever went to the homicide office myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any message around that time or a little +later relayed to you as it were, through FBI agents, that Mr. J. Edgar +Hoover, the head of the FBI, wanted you to know of his concern about +Oswald's security? + +Mr. CURRY. Specifically, I don't remember anyone coming to me and +telling me that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see--I think the last statement you made +was that it was sometime before you actually went to Fritz' office +yourself. Is there anything that happened of significance or that you +want to put in the record with reference to what happened between the +time you got there around a little after 4 and the time you did get in +to see Oswald? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I wasn't particularly interested in seeing him +or interfering with the investigation in any way. I stayed up in the +administrative offices most of the time. I had a number of calls from +various people, I don't recall just who all I talked to. I conferred +with some of my staff during that time and I was kept informed of the +progress of the investigation. + +Mr. HUBERT. How were you kept informed? + +Mr. CURRY. Usually through Chief Stevenson. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would move from Captain Fritz' +office---- + +Mr. CURRY. Either by telephone or go down to the office and talk to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. CURRY. Well, nothing of significance that I can recall occurred. +Later in the evening someone told me that they had enough evidence that +he had been identified as the slayer of our police officer. + +Captain Fritz thought he had better go ahead and file on him and I +think it was about 7:30 on the day they did file on him, and I think he +had been down--had been to the showup a time or two--there were some +witnesses who had identified him, so I was told, as being the man who +shot Tippit. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald then, or when was the first time you saw +him? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the first time I saw him, but I +believe it was in the evening--in the early evening. When I did see him +I remember that he impressed me as being a sullen, arrogant individual, +and he didn't seem particularly perturbed with the fact that he was +being interrogated or that he was causing such a commotion--he was +pretty cool. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't question him yourself, did you? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, he was filed upon about 7:30 with respect to Tippit? + +Mr. CURRY. Somewhere around in there--I don't know exactly when it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. CURRY. Then, after he was filed on for this offense, I believe +it was Captain Fritz who told me that they were working now on the +possibility that he was the same suspect or the assassin of the +President, and they began to, when I say "they" I mean Captain Fritz, +principally, told me of some of the evidence that was piling up against +him. In fact, he told me that he worked in this Building and that that +morning he had carried a package into the Building. + +Mr. HUBERT. This information was being relayed to you? + +Mr. CURRY. Relayed to me by Fritz--just summing up what they found out +about him. He told me that, as I recall, he told me that Oswald had +been in the Building on this day and that one of the Negro porters +had seen him go to the sixth floor, I believe, at lunch time, and +that after the shooting, some of our officers went into the Building +and they saw Oswald at a lunch counter or in the recreation room +and started to approach him or question him and they were told by +Mr. Truly, who is the Building manager, that this was one of their +employees, and I think the officer passed him on up and went on +upstairs to try to determine where these shots came from. + +In the meantime, I believe Inspector Sawyer was several blocks away +from there, from that location, and when he heard what was happening, +he immediately went to the location to take over all security and +searching there. + +Chief Lumpkin and some of his party went on to Love Field with me +and they went back to the Texas School Book Depository. So, several +minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting until anyone could have +gotten--any officers could have gotten actually to the Building. + +As soon as it was feasible or possible, they did seal off this Building +and also that they had checked all of the employees of the Building and +found out that there was one missing, and I think this is when they +suspected him of being involved in the fatal shooting of the President, +and from the description, I believe they began to tie the two suspects +together--the suspect of the shooting of the officer, and all this was +told to me by people of the homicide bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, when we last talked about Oswald, I think it was when +he was being charged with respect to Tippit, and then I gather that the +information you are giving us now is the background for charging him as +the assassin of President Kennedy? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were aware of that too--you were still in the +Building? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a meeting--it has sometimes been called a +showup or a lineup--I don't know that that is accurate, but it took +place in the assembly room. + +Mr. CURRY. And some of the members of the press were there, yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell us what that was about? About what time? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly the time it was--it was in the +evening, sometime after they had interrogated, I think, Oswald. I think +he had been in the showup once or twice previous to this for witnesses +to observe him, and there were so many newsmen in the halls that they +were not all of them able to see or to get any pictures or any thing +else in the north corridor of the third floor, and some of them asked +me to--sometime during the evening--when they could see Oswald, how +does he look, can we see him? + +At this time Henry Wade, the district attorney, was up there and +Alexander was up there. + +Mr. HUBERT. He is the assistant district attorney? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; and something was said about--how about letting us see +him or could we see him? + +Mr. HUBERT. That was said by Wade or Alexander or by the newsmen? + +Mr. CURRY. By the newsmen. + +Mr. HUBERT. In the presence of Wade and Alexander? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; as I recall it, I asked Henry Wade, "Do you see +anything wrong with it," and as I recall, he told me, "Not that I know +of, I don't see anything wrong with it." And, so, we told them if they +would go to the assembly room that we would let them see Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is the assembly room located on another floor? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, in the basement; we were on the third floor. + +Mr. HUBERT. And the assembly room is in effect--it is a room, as I +recall it, that might seat 50 or 75 people? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it has a little stage with the usual showup apparatus? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there is gauze in front of the prisoners, +so that the audience can see them, but the prisoners can't look out. +And there are markings on it as to height and their numbers? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's the room we are talking about? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, that's the room he was taken to. He was not put on the +stage, he was just put in front of the stage for the showup. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was not put behind the gauze? + +Mr. CURRY. Not this time, I think he was on previous occasions. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; when there was a real lineup for identification? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. But this was not an identification lineup? + +Mr. CURRY. No; it was the news media clamoring to see him, and they +wanted to know when they could look at him or when they could observe +him, and on the third floor when he was brought to and from the +interrogation room, which was Captain Fritz' office, they had to go +about 20 or 25 feet, and they almost mobbed him every time they would +bring him through. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are saying they had to go about 20 or 25 feet to get to +the elevator? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the inside elevator, not the public elevator? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. It's the inside elevator---- + +Mr. CURRY. The prisoners' elevator. + +Mr. HUBERT. That leads all of the police department down into the +basement into the jail? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go ahead. + +Mr. CURRY. So, we warned them not to try to interfere with him or +anything else and we would let them see him. We did take him down and +let them briefly see him--this was just a very short time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you present then? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who else was present, among the police officers you recall? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't recall--I think Fritz was--I don't know that he was +in the room, and there was a couple of detectives who brought the +suspect in. Henry Wade and Alexander were in the vicinity--they were +not right there with me, so when we brought him in, the news media +started then to trying to talk to him and he was only there for a few +seconds and we removed him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see, during the time you were in the assembly room +that you have just been speaking about, the man you now know as Jack +Ruby in that room? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't. I understood he was there, but I didn't +see him, and would not have known him had I seen him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, that's correct, but now that you do know him? + +Mr. CURRY. I didn't recognize him. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't recognize him? + +Mr. CURRY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your present memory doesn't associate the man you now know +as Jack Ruby with being in that room? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell us why Oswald was moved for the purpose +of charging him in the case of Tippit, and subsequently in the case of +the President? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't know in the case of Tippit. I wasn't there. I +mean, I wasn't present when he was charged, but he was charged with +the murder of the President--he was charged in the lobby of the +identification bureau, which is on the fourth floor of the police +department, and he was brought out of the jail into the identification +bureau and the charge was read to him by Judge David Johnston. + +Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is what security measures were +observed with reference to him during the time that he was moved +through these crowds of people? + +Mr. CURRY. Officers surrounded him. We had officers in front and in the +back and by the side of him as he was moving--usually two detectives, +two or three uniformed officers, when he moved through the crowds. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand you said that there was a huge crowd on the +third floor? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I would take it that there was a rather large crowd in +the assembly room? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; there were several--a good many there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that other than on the third floor, when +he was being moved and when he was in the assembly room, he was not +exposed in any way? + +Mr. CURRY. No; he was not. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, there were no persons around him but police +then? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he was moved through the hall, however many times +he was at the third floor--of course, you had this mob of newsmen and +there were a group of newsmen in the assembly room? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at--what security measures were taken, +if you know, with respect to who was in that crowd of newsmen of the +people in the assembly room? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't know, other than on the third floor. I know that +there was some police reservists and a police sergeant who was +screening people who came up on the third floor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, how would they screen them? + +Mr. CURRY. As they got off of the elevator, I would observe that they +would check them, apparently asking for identification. + +Mr. HUBERT. The elevator would be the only way to get up there? + +Mr. CURRY. The stairway, they could get up the stairway. The officers +were so located that had someone come up the stairway they would have +seen them too. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the officers checking the elevator could +also check the staircase? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether any instructions had been given to +those officers? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my knowledge, but I observed them checking +the people who came in. + +Mr. HUBERT. Whose responsibility would it have been to post those +officers for the purpose of checking there? + +Mr. CURRY. Usually the captain on duty in that building--that would +have been Captain Talbert, I believe, but it could have been someone +else. Had they observed the need for it, they could have issued orders +to get someone else. + +Mr. HUBERT. Obviously, someone must have posted two men there? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you have in the department any standard +operative procedures to cover a situation like that? + +Mr. CURRY. Not exactly this type incident. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, in any case, you observed that that was a security +check going on? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is the same thing approximately true about the group that +was in the assembly room when Oswald was brought down? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, now, I don't know that they were all checked as they +went into the assembly room. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any instructions about the security of Oswald +there? + +Mr. CURRY. No; I just told them to keep the newsmen--and I told the +newsmen they would have to stay back inside the confines of the room +and not approach the prisoner. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way--generally speaking, did you give +any specific instructions regarding the security of Oswald, during that +period we are talking about? + +Mr. CURRY. No, not this period--no. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what system of checking for identification was +being used by the officers on the third floor guarding the elevator and +staircase? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't know of my own knowledge. I could see them checking +the people to see whether they were up to do police business or whether +they were newsmen trying to cover the incident. We were carrying on +the normal business we would conduct, and this would bring a great +many people to the third floor, relatives of prisoners, complainants, +various people that would come to the other bureaus. + +Mr. HUBERT. Normally, there would be no police checking those two +elevators? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that, I suppose it is fair to state, isn't it, that the +main function of that check was to keep curiosity seekers out of the +way? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right--that's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And to check also to see if anybody had any legitimate +business there? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think we can just continue on then. + +Mr. CURRY. Well, after Oswald was arraigned, I went back to my +office--I went home a little while after that and that was, I believe, +Saturday night. + +Mr. HUBERT. No; that would be Friday night. + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; Friday night, yes; and Saturday morning I came +down to the office and I don't remember any particular outstanding +incident that occurred during the day. It was a rather routine +investigation--there continued the investigation from the homicide +division section on the murder of the President. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was the crowd of newspapermen still there? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were the security measures you have described still in +force? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they stayed. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was neither more nor less? + +Mr. CURRY. It was about the same. I had several conferences during the +day with various staff members and I was kept informed of the progress +of the investigation. Late that evening, the different members of +the press, news media, began to ask me when we were going to transfer +Oswald because he had been filed on, and I told them I didn't know, +that this was something that would be left up to Captain Fritz because +he was conducting the investigation and the interrogation, and usually +he would be the one to determine when he was ready to transfer the +prisoner. + +Mr. HUBERT. When a prisoner is formally charged, as Oswald had been, +what is the normal procedure to transfer the prisoner to the State +prison? + +Mr. CURRY. There are two ways it is done. Sometimes the bureau +transfers the person to the sheriff's office, and sometimes the +sheriff's office sends up and gets them. + +Mr. HUBERT. And either type is usual? + +Mr. CURRY. Either one is acceptable. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had Decker made any request to you to deliver what, in +effect, was his prisoner? + +Mr. CURRY. Not at this time. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, on Saturday night, that would be the 23d, you were +asked, I think, by the newsmen? + +Mr. CURRY. When we were going to transfer him and I told them I didn't +know. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on from there. + +Mr. CURRY. And some of them asked if "They are going to transfer him +tonight?" And I said, "I don't think so." Then, I talked to Fritz +about when he thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't +think it was a good idea to transfer him at night because of the fact +you couldn't see, and if anybody tried to cause them any trouble, +they needed to see who they were and where it was coming from and so +forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, so this was normal +procedure, I mean, for Fritz to determine when he is going to transfer +his prisoners, so I told him, "Okay." I asked him, I said, "What time +do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" And he didn't know exactly +and I said, "Do you think about 10 o'clock," and he said, "I believe +so," and then is when I went out and told the newspaper people, the +news media that we were not going to transfer him that night and some +of them asked, "When should we be back, when are you going to transfer +him?" And I said, "I don't know," because I didn't know when we were +going to transfer him. Some of them said, "When should we back?" I made +the remark then, "I believe if you are back here by 10 o'clock you will +be back in time to observe anything you care to observe." + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether on Saturday night any plans had +been made for the transfer? + +Mr. CURRY. Not on Saturday night, I don't believe. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then, you went home? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then, let's pick up with the 24th. + +Mr. CURRY. On Sunday morning, I came down to the office, and, as I +recall, it was probably 8:30 or 8:45 when I got to the office, and as +I parked my car in the basement of the city hall and started up to +our office, I noticed that a large camera had been set up out in the +hallway between the jail office and the end of the corridor immediately +in front of the jail office, and it was in the way of traffic, and +Lieutenant Wiggins came out and I told him--I told Lieutenant Wiggins, +I said, "You are going to have to move this camera out of here," and +then I told Wiggins, I said, "Now, if the news media come down here and +want in, put them over behind the rail." There is a rail separating +the ramp that comes down in the basement from the parking area. There +were two cars in there, I believe a patrol wagon and a squad car and I +told him to move those vehicles out and if the news media came down and +wanted to observe from the basement, that they were to be placed back +over in this area. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state, then, that in your own mind, you had +determined that the way to move him was through the basement area? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. I believe about this--Chief Stevenson and Chief +Batchelor approached me--I think they had been there earlier, and I +told them I thought the best thing to do was to set up our security +down there and bring Oswald down there and transfer him on to the +county jail. + +I went on up to the office and Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson, I +think, remained in the basement a while and Captain Talbert was down +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you delegate to any specific person the security of +Oswald? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I could see that he was being taken care of by the +captain on duty, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Wiggins was assisting +in it, so I didn't see any need to particularly call some officer +over there and say, "Look, you are in charge of this security in this +basement." It was being taken care of, I could see. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, for the record, will you tell us what you saw that +satisfied you that it was being taken care of? + +Mr. CURRY. Officers were being stationed at the strategic points in +the basement to screen people coming in, and they were moving out the +vehicles as I asked them to, so I went on upstairs and I told Chief +Batchelor and Chief Stevenson that we should clean out everything in +the basement and screen everything that came back in. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you ordered everything to be "screened" did you give +any specific instructions? + +Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't + +Mr. HUBERT. Or does that term have any significance in police work? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, it means to satisfy yourself that they were people who +had a legitimate reason to be there when you screen them. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, within the organization of the police +department, the word "screening" is understood so that you were +satisfied that there would not be people there who were not supposed to +be there? + +Mr. CURRY. Any unauthorized people. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just one more point on that--under the system, who would be +considered as unauthorized persons? + +Mr. CURRY. I think I specifically stated that only newspaper reporters +or police officers would be allowed in the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Only the news media? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Television people--would be included, too? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there any discussion of the route to be taken? + +Mr. CURRY. Not at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; let's go ahead. + +Mr. CURRY. Then, I went on upstairs and a little while later I went +to Fritz' office and they were interrogating him--they--there were +several people in there, some I recognized as FBI agents, some were +Secret Service agents, some were Dallas detectives, and Captain Fritz +was talking to Oswald at the time, I believe, and I stood around a few +moments and when there was a lull in the interrogation, I asked Captain +Fritz if he was about ready to transfer Oswald and he said, "Well, no; +they were still talking to him," so I left the room. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time? + +Mr. CURRY. As I recall, it was probably 10:30, but I didn't care when +they transferred him at all. It didn't make any difference to me. The +arrangements had been made to transfer him and then when it was brought +to---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What arrangements had been made? + +Mr. CURRY. That we would transfer him to the sheriff, but at that time +we did not have any armored cars down there. We were just at that time, +I believe it was--understood that we would just put him in the car and +drive him down there. + +Someone asked me if I had heard of the threats that had been made +against him, and I had. They had called me at home about it, and I +called Sheriff Decker, I think, from Fritz' office, and when Fritz said +they were ready to transfer the man, and this is something after 11 +o'clock--probably a little after 11, and Decker said, "Okay, bring him +on," and at that time I said, "I thought you were coming after him." + +Decker said, "Either way, I'll come after him or you can bring him to +me," and I thought since we had so much involved here, we were the +ones that were investigating the case and we had the officers set up +downstairs to handle it, so I told Decker--I said, "Okay, we'll bring +him to you." + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at first your security precaution in the +basement was to take care of the situation of either your having to +move him from the jail or Decker coming after him? + +Mr. CURRY. Or Decker coming after him; that's right. Then, I saw Chief +Batchelor, and I believe, Chief Stevenson, and we discussed the threats +that we had had. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, that was, of course, after you had heard about the +threats and after you had talked to Decker? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I think you mentioned you talked to Decker a little +after 11 o'clock? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, it was probably before that. + +Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to bring that to your attention because it seems +to me it must have been earlier than that. + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. Because we had to get the armored car in there +after that. Anyway, after it was determined we would move him, Chief +Batchelor, I believe, and Chief Stevenson and myself discussed this +security and we decided it would be best to get an armored car down +there in the event some one, some group tried to take our prisoner away +from us, it would be better to have him in an armored car. + +So. Chief Batchelor called the man, I don't recall his name now, that +runs the armored motor service here in Dallas, and requested that we be +furnished with an armored car, and I was told later that they had two +sizes, an overland truck and a city truck and they would send them both +over there when they could get the drivers and we could use whichever +one we wanted. + +Well, as I understand it, during this time the questioning of Oswald +continued up in Captain Fritz' office, and I believe it was about a +quarter to 11 or around 11 when we were told the armored cars were +there and they backed them into the basement and they wouldn't go all +the way down because of the height of the vehicle, and one of them was +parked on the ramp and officers were placed on each side of it. In the +meantime, I understand that the basement had been completely cleaned +out of any unauthorized persons. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me why it was that the Commerce Street exit +was chosen to put the armored car in and for the cars carrying Oswald +to leave in, rather than the Main Street exit? + +Mr. CURRY. Because Commerce Street is one way east and all the traffic +comes in on Main Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Main Street is two-way traffic? + +Mr. CURRY. It is two-way traffic and the exit is one way east, so the +vehicles were placed there. + +Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of geographical fact, except for the fact that +you would have been going the wrong way, up the Main Street ramp and +that you had two-way traffic on Main Street, the actual closest route +would have been to go up the Main Street ramp, turn left up Main Street +and go down? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; it would. It would have been about three or four blocks +closer, because when we came out of Commerce you had to go east to the +second block and make a turn one block and make a turn back west. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief, have you any comment to make as to why the longer +route instead of the shorter route was taken? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, just because ordinarily we don't violate traffic rules +and regulations in the transfer of prisoners and we thought this was +the normal route that should be taken and that's the reason it was set +up that way. + +Mr. HUBERT. The original decision, as I remember it, was to go through +the Commerce Street exit and then turn left up to North Central? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then turn left again and go to Elm and then go on down +to the county jail? + +Mr. CURRY. When I went back up into the homicide office and told Fritz +about our plans of transferring the prisoner, he was not particularly +pleased with the idea of putting the prisoner in the armored car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why? + +Mr. CURRY. He said if someone tried to take our prisoner, he felt like +we ought to be able to maneuver and he felt that this would be too +awkward in in this heavy armored car and he preferred that the prisoner +be transferred in a regular police car with detectives. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was a policeman to drive the armored car? + +Mr. CURRY. No; not the armored car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that a factor, too--I suppose--it wouldn't be a member +of the police force under your control driving that car? + +Mr. CURRY. No; but he felt like--Fritz said if anyone tried to take +our prisoner we should be in a position to be able to cut out of the +caravan or to take off or do whatever was necessary to protect our +prisoner. + +So, I didn't argue with him about it--there was some merit to his plan, +so I told him, "Well, okay, but we would still use the armored car +as a decoy and let it go right on down just as we had planned and if +anyone planned to try to take our prisoner away from us, they would be +attacking an empty armored car," and that his vehicle with the prisoner +in it would have cut out of the caravan and proceeded immediately to +the county jail and the prisoner would be taken into the county jail, +and the way we figured it, he would be there before the other caravan +got there. + +Well, he asked me if everything was ready and I said, "Yes, as far as +I know, everything is ready to go," and this was a little after 11 +o'clock and I said, "Well, I'll go on down to the basement," and was +en route to the basement when I was called to the telephone and Mayor +Cabell was on the telephone wanting to know something about the case, +how we were progressing, what was going on, and while I was talking to +him they made this transfer and Oswald was shot in the basement, and +he was rushed to Parkland Hospital and I was notified that he had been +shot in the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know about his being shot before he moved to the +hospital in the ambulance? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, they called me from the jail office and said he had +been shot and an ambulance had been ordered. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the shooting, what action did you take--that is, +the shooting of Oswald? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, I don't recall any particular action I took. I was +told the man who shot him was in custody and was up in the jail. I +think I notified the mayor that the man had been shot while I was +still on the telephone with him and then I waited up in my office for +word from Parkland Hospital, and about 1:30, or I believe about 1:30, +we were informed that he had expired, and during this time I had been +informed that the man who shot him was a nightclub operator named Jack +Ruby, and that he was in custody up in the jail. + +After I was informed that Oswald had died, I made an announcement to +news media that he had expired and that we had the man who shot him in +custody and as I recall, that's about the extent of my activity on that +day. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether on Sunday, November 24, it came to +your attention that Ruby had stated that he entered the jail through +the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. CURRY. I heard that, but I don't know who told it to me. I just +heard a rumor that he had come in through the Main Street ramp. I +understood that he told some more people that up in the jail. + +After this happened, I immediately set up an investigative team to try +to find out what happened. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "immediately," you mean on the 24th? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And who was that? + +Mr. CURRY. Inspector Sawyer, Capt. O. A. Jones. + +Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to them? + +Mr. CURRY. To interrogate everyone that had anything to do with this +and find out what they knew about it, what had happened and how and why +and how it occurred. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that your instructions were then to +find out exactly the truth? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; absolutely. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did receive a report from them ultimately? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I take it, of course, that you studied it? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I remember the report, it made certain specific findings +as to how Ruby entered and so forth? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes, according to the report he did come down the Main +Street ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. From your study of the report and all the statements that +you got, are you satisfied with the conclusions reached in the report? + +Mr. CURRY. I believe this is the way he came in. I don't believe the +officer at the top of the ramp where he came in, I don't believe +that he knew that he went by, but I do state this, that I think the +proper security was set up, and that had each officer carried out his +assignment, I believe the transfer would have been made safely, and +while I, as head of the department, have to accept responsibility for +the security, I can say this, that the proper security was set up. + +It was a failure of one man to carry out his assignment properly that +permitted this man, apparently, to come into the basement of the city +hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that man you mean is Roy Vaughn? + +Mr. CURRY. Vaughn--Officer Vaughn, the officer assigned to the Main +Street ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of influence of any sort whatsoever or +suggestions exercised upon you or made to you concerning the transfer +of Oswald by either Mayor Cabell or City Manager Crull? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; they left it up to me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief, as you know, there has been some suggestion that a +desire to satisfy the press dictated the time of the movement and the +route. I think you ought to have an opportunity at this time to recall +your own observations as to what influence, if any, considerations of +pleasing the press entered into any of these plans? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, I would only say this, that we were trying in the +police department to let the press have an opportunity to observe the +proceedings as they were. This is an event that had not been--the like +of the event had not been seen or heard, I think, in this century. + +I didn't have any particular ones to come to me and insist that this be +done in this manner. I saw no particular harm in allowing the media to +observe the prisoner, and with no laws against it, and no policies that +had ever been set up stating that the news media would not be allowed +to see a prisoner. + +There was no way for us to take the prisoner from the homicide office +to the jail and back without the news media seeing him. I was besieged +actually by the press to permit them to see Oswald. They made such +remarks as, "The public has a right to see, to know," I didn't want +them to think that we were mistreating Oswald; that we were carrying on +this investigation in a normal manner, and that this case was handled +as probably any other case would have been handled, although this had +more national appeal, you might say, and had some curiosity to it, than +some of the other cases we have handled. + +But certainly the fact that the news media was permitted to see him and +to take pictures of him was not anything unusual. This has always been +done, but not to this extent because we didn't have this much press +present. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I understand what you are saying, it is that had it +not been for the fact that the victim was Oswald, if it was Oswald, +and it was the President involved, this would have been quite normal +procedure, that is to say, the press would have been allowed to see +him, you would have told them when he was going to be moved? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And allowed them to take pictures? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was any suggestion made to you by anybody that it would be +best to disregard those considerations with respect to the press and +use another route in making the transfer at another time? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not that I recall. Fritz and I, I think, discussed +this briefly, the possibility of getting that prisoner out of the +city hall during the night hours and by another route and slipping +him to the jail, but actually Fritz was not too much in favor of this +and I more or less left this up to Fritz as to when and how this +transfer would be made, because he has in the past transferred many +of his prisoners to the county jail and I felt that since it was his +responsibility, the prisoner was, to let him decide when and how he +wanted to transfer this prisoner. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't, in any case, give him instructions not to +transfer the prisoner at a time when he could not be observed by the +press? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; that's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that had he done so, it would have been +satisfactory to you? + +Mr. CURRY. I would not have complained about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Fritz' decision not to move him prior +to the time that had been announced to the press was motivated by +considerations of the press? + +Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was or not. I think this--that he +didn't know how long he would be interrogating. I don't believe Fritz +wanted to move him at night. I think he wanted to move him in the +daytime so that he could see anyone that might be trying to cause him +any trouble. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that, therefore, Fritz' decision not to +move him at night was dictated by considerations of security? + +Mr. CURRY. I believe so; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief, I believe that I ought to offer you the opportunity +to state for the record here as an overall proposition what you +consider to be the cause of what was obviously a security breakdown? + +Mr. CURRY. I think the cause of the breakdown was the fact that +Officer Vaughn left his post to assist this Lieutenant Pierce, and I +believe Sergeant Dean, and I don't know who else was in the car, as +they left the basement of the city hall going the wrong way on the +ramp, and Officer Vaughn stepped across the sidewalk which he had +been instructed, so I am told, to guard that ramp--to let only police +officers or bona fide news media enter there. He momentarily stepped +away from his assignment and while he was away from this assignment, +our investigation shows that Jack Ruby went behind him and entered +the ramp and went to the bottom of the ramp and stood behind some +detectives and news media. + +Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the security at the top of the Main Street ramp +where Vaughn was, what observations have you to make about that means +of entry being guarded by one man only instead of, say, more? + +Mr. CURRY. Well, actually, this seemed to be the least risk in our +security plan. All of the crowd and vehicles and everything was over on +Commerce Street and there was very little over on Main Street, actually +very little activity at all. It was only about a 12-foot ramp there +that he had to guard. + +Mr. HUBERT. And he was standing right in the middle of it? + +Mr. CURRY. Had he stayed on his assignment, I don't see how Ruby could +have gotten in. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, when the Pierce car came up, he obviously had +to move away, but your thought is he moved too far away from his +assignment? + +Mr. CURRY. He moved too far away from his assignment. He apparently +was assisting this vehicle to get across the sidewalk, I think it was +10 or 12 feet wide, and into the street. Actually, he should have just +stepped to one side and let the vehicle come by. + +Now, this officer was put on a polygraph to determine whether or not he +knew that Ruby went by him and according to the test, the results of +the test, he did not realize that Ruby went by him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief, in addition to your testimony, I have shown you +two documents which I think you have read, and I am marking for +identification as follows, to-wit: The first one is a report of an +interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain on November 25, the +document consisting of two pages, and I am marking on the first page +"Dallas, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5313, deposition of Chief J. E. +Curry," and I am signing my name on that, and on the second page I am +placing my initials. + +With respect to the second document, it seems to be a copy of an +interview of you made by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 10, 1963, +and I am marking on the margin of the first page, as follows: "Dallas, +Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5314, deposition of Chief J. E. Curry," +and I am signing my name at the bottom of that page, and since the +document has a second page, I am placing my initials at the bottom of +the second page. + +Now, I am going to ask you if you would mind signing your name where +my name appears and your initials where my initials are, so that the +record will show we both are talking about the same document? + +Mr. CURRY. Okay. + +(Signed document as requested by Counsel Hubert.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Then I am going to ask you whether you have any comments to +make about those two documents? Would you initial the second page, too? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; I will. + +(Witness Curry initialed instruments as requested by Counsel Hubert.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Chief, have you had an opportunity to read both of +those documents? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; I looked them over. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do they represent the truth so far as you know of the +interviews that they purport to cover? + +Now, if you have any comments to make or deletions or modifications or +changes, or if you find that those documents are incorrect, I would +like for you to say so, because what we will have to do is to get into +the record what is correct and not what is not correct. + +Mr. CURRY. [Examining instruments as referred to.] Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are they correct, sir? Do you have any comments or +deletions? + +Mr. CURRY. No; I don't have any comments. As far as I know--as far as I +can recall, this is about what happened. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the +Commission's staff prior to this time? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I had a little conversation with you over in my +office. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 weeks ago when I was present in Dallas? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that occurred during that conversation +that has not been covered here? + +Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, finally, is there anything at all you would like to +make a matter of record concerning this whole thing? You are at liberty +to say anything you want to say. + +Mr. CURRY. No; the only thing I would like to say is that I deeply +regret the incidents that occurred and I feel like we did everything +that could be expected of us as a police department to set up the +security of the President and to cooperate with all agencies that had a +responsibility in this matter, that we certainly would have liked for +Oswald to have remained alive and faced trial. + +According to the information that was given to me by the homicide +bureau, we had developed a very good case on him and would have been +able to, I'm sure, would have been able to convict him in a court of +law. + +Jack Ruby--I do not know, I did not know. It has been intimated that a +great many of the Dallas police officers did know him, but from what +I've been able to find out, there were some police officers who knew +him, but most of them knew him because of the fact they had conducted +police business with him at his place of business. There were a few, +perhaps, that knew him and had gone to his place of business for social +activities, but it was certainly not--he is not known by the majority +of the police department. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief, perhaps you would like to comment on two +things--one, is that, as you know, there has been some talk or rumor, +of course, that the police department cooperated, or some members of +it, with Ruby for an opportunity for Ruby to shoot Oswald. + +Have you looked into that, and if you have, would you give us your +observations about it? + +Mr. CURRY. My instructions to the investigating officers were to go +into every facet of this incident and to uncover any information that +might indicate that any police officer cooperated in any way with +letting Ruby get in a position to where he could have an opportunity to +shoot Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any evidence that would indicate anything? + +Mr. CURRY. No evidence whatsoever were we able to find. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were looking for such? + +Mr. CURRY. Yes; we certainly were. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief, what was your intention had you found such evidence? + +Mr. CURRY. Proper action would have been taken. + +Mr. HUBERT. And by that you mean what? + +Mr. CURRY. The officer, if criminal negligence had been established, he +would have been filed on by us. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been also the rumor that while the police +did not actively cooperate, that they saw Jack Ruby there, didn't pay +much attention to him, were really appalled when he did what he did, +and then after that, engaged in a cover-up activity to preserve the +reputation of the police department. Can you tell us whether your +investigative efforts were directed toward uncovering any evidence +which might throw light on that matter? + +Mr. CURRY. This investigation which was conducted was a completely +impartial investigation. + +We in the police department for a number of years have felt like if +there is anything wrong in our department, we want to know it, and if +actions of the officers are improper, an examination of our records +through the years will show that we have taken whatever action was +indicated, whether this be filing on a man for law violations or for +improper conduct or whatever it might be. The seriousness of the +offense is certainly not covered up and through the years we have a +reputation for a high standard of conduct and the integrity of the +department has not been questioned. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that from all you know that there has +been no effort to cover up? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge, and had there been and it had +come to my knowledge, I certainly would have done something about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the evidence shows that really Ruby +came through one man? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that was Vaughn? + +Mr. CURRY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say, chief? + +Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, sir, on behalf of the Commission and myself +personally, I want to thank you very much for coming here and being +frank and contributing, I think, a great deal of the permanent record +in this matter. + +Mr. CURRY. Thank you, sir, if there is anything that I might know that +I haven't brought out, I will be happy to. The only thing I can say is +that our security broke down at one place. I can't deny that, and I +don't think it intentional on the part of the police department to have +this thing occur. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that's covered. I wanted to ask you those questions +and I think they are going to be asked and we are going to have an +answer to them now and you are the man to do it. Thank you very much, +chief. + +Mr. CURRY. All right. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF SHERIFF J. E. (BILL) DECKER + +The testimony of Sheriff J. E. (Bill) Decker was taken at 10:44 a.m., +on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, +Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of J. E. (Bill) Decker. + +Mr. Decker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory +staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission under the +provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the +joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted +by the Commission in conformity with the Executive order and the joint +resolution. I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from +you, Sheriff Decker. I state to you now that the general nature of the +inquiry of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to +report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy +and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular as to you, Sheriff Decker, the nature of the inquiry +today is to determine what facts you may know about the death of Oswald +and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, +including the security of Oswald, and the method and so forth by which +he was killed. + +I think, Sheriff Decker, that you have appeared here today by virtue of +a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes; I think that's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is the General Counsel of the staff of the President's +Commission? + +Mr. DECKER. I know there was a letter--anyway, I am here due to that +reason. + +Mr. HUBERT. I had the impression you had a letter, but let me say this, +that in any event, you are appearing here by virtue of a request made +to appear here? + +Mr. DECKER. I was notified by the U.S. Secret Service to appear here +and I presume that was a summons. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then, that would be because we did not wish to go through +the formalities here? + +Mr. DECKER. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. In that case, however, I must state to you that under the +rules and regulations of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a +3-day written notice before appearing. + +Mr. DECKER. I understand. + +Mr. HUBERT. But the Commission does provide that the witness may waive +that 3 days' notice and I now ask you if you are willing to waive it +and testify now? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up, please, and I will administer the oath? +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name? + +Mr. DECKER. Bill Decker. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Mr. DECKER. Sir, 66. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? + +Mr. DECKER. 6302 Palo Pinto. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? + +Mr. DECKER. I am sheriff of Dallas County. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been sheriff? + +Mr. DECKER. Since January 1, 1949. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have been reelected a number of times? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many times? + +Mr. DECKER. I am serving my 16 years--I had two of those--one of those +terms for a 4-year term, but we caught 2 years prior to that--that +makes 4 from 16, leaves 12, 3 and 1 is 4 terms and I am coming for my +fifth now. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to the time that you became +sheriff? + +Mr. DECKER. I was chief deputy sheriff for Dallas County 14 years prior +to that. Prior to that I was chief deputy constable since 1924, prior +to that I was in the courthouse as a court clerk and prior to that I +was elevator operator in the courthouse. Now, that's it--that's my life. + +Mr. HUBERT. You started really at the bottom you might say, and went up? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are married, of course? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have a family? + +Mr. DECKER. I have one adopted son. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I--as I understand it, it is your responsibility to +operate the State or county jail for those prisoners who are either +serving terms that may be served there, or who are awaiting a trial in +Dallas County and do not make bond, is that correct, sir? + +Mr. DECKER. That is correct. I am keeper of the county security +building, of the county jail, which maintains the prisoners. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is located where? + +Mr. DECKER. 505 Main Street, the corner of Main and Houston, and it +extends to the corner of Elm and Houston in the rear. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when prisoners are put in your custody or you take +them into your custody who are awaiting trial, where are they placed, +in cell blocks or something of that sort? + +Mr. DECKER. Oh, yes; we have a jail there with a capacity of 750 +prisoners. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have what might be called maximum security there? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes; I do--there are many maximums--I have 450 +maximum-security cells that's the latest that can be built. The others +are built in the old jail which was built in 1913. Of course, my steel +isn't so good in that old jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. By maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security +from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out? + +Mr. DECKER. It is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern +locks. The man who maintains it--the opening and closing of the doors +to it is in a cell block where the prisoners could not get to him +unless he did as a couple of my boys did the other day, I'm sorry to +say. You don't need to put that in there. They are no longer with me. +They opened the door when they had no business to and they lost their +jobs and I lost five prisoners. + +Mr. HUBERT. Does maximum security as it operates with you include +considerations of security to the prisoner himself? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider it to be your function, not merely to +secure the prisoner so that he may be brought to justice or acquitted, +but also so that his personal security will be maintained and he will +not be injured, either by other prisoners or by outsiders? + +Mr. DECKER. Well, I even go further than that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you tell us about that? + +Mr. DECKER. A prisoner that is delivered to me--when the crime is +committed, he is then delivered to me and when he is delivered to me, +from then on I am his keeper. I must furnish his food, his clothing, +get his medication and all the necessities of life required. I must +protect him from a violent prisoner and I also must protect him from a +citizen who would desire to do harm to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that your physical set up, and by that I +mean, bricks and cement and steel as well as personnel is adequate to +accomplish the purposes that you have described as maximum security? + +Mr. DECKER. We feel that our men are qualified from the training that +is given to them, one; that the jail has passed Federal jail inspection +on many occasions; and we feel that our jail is so constructed that the +prisoner is protected. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you are aware that a man by the name of Lee +Harvey Oswald was in the custody of the Dallas police? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes; I had some officers present when he was arrested. + +Mr. HUBERT. From the sheriff's office--sheriff's officers were present? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes; sheriff's officers were present in Oak Cliff at the +time. They responded to the assassination of the killing of Tippit, the +same as others. You see, I was at the scene of the assassination of the +President. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. DECKER. When my officers were dispatched there, I also told some +other agencies to send their men over there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is the custom with respect to prisoners who are +captured or taken into custody by the city police when there is no +warrant of arrest? + +Mr. DECKER. Most prisoners taken in custody by the city police are +arrested within the corporate limits of the city of Dallas and they in +turn are moved to the city jail, which is located at the corner of Main +and Harwood, or better still, in the 2000 block of Main Street, and +there confined until their period of investigation is completed. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long is that? + +Mr. DECKER. Well, now, that's a problem I couldn't--there would be no +way to answer that--how long does it take to make some investigation? + +Mr. HUBERT. What I had in mind was whether there was any rule, +regulation, or law? + +Mr. DECKER. No; someone said once you couldn't hold them over 24 or 36 +hours, but where it is, I don't know. The city ordinance under which +most municipalities work is--they have a right to arrest and hold for +investigation until they could determine if a crime has been committed. +That leaves it pretty blank. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, let's assume that a man has been formally +charged and that there has been a capias or warrant---- + +Mr. DECKER. It's a warrant in this case. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of arrest, which authorizes you to arrest the particular +prisoner? + +Mr. DECKER. I or one of the constables. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your custom--are there any rules or regulations or +laws? + +Mr. DECKER. No; there's no rules or regulations--only this--when a +warrant is issued--when a complaint is filed with my district attorney +or the magistrate, which is the justice of the peace, the warrant +is issued and delivered to the agency. If it is a felony and in the +justice court, it goes to the constable, which this offense we are +speaking about was a felony and should have gone to David Johnston, +justice of the peace, precinct 2, and the warrants were delivered to +the city police. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about the charge with respect to +Tippit, are you, or the death of the President, or both? + +Mr. DECKER. Well, I rather think it was both. + +Mr. HUBERT. The warrants then were not put into your possession at all? + +Mr. DECKER. No, sir; not at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that is in accordance with the custom, too? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What would normally happen in circumstances such as we are +dealing with here, where warrants were issued about 7 o'clock in one +case, as to Tippit, and a little later about 11 o'clock on the 22d of +November, as to the death of the President, what would be the normal +situation as to your getting control and custody and your becoming the +keeper of these prisoners? + +Mr. DECKER. The whole thing would be that if we, if those warrants had +come through the regular channels to us, we would have contacted--I +imagine we would have contacted Captain Fritz because it was a homicide +and that is in his division, and asked him about the prisoner and +discussed with him if he was ready for transfer--if he was going to +transfer or did he want us to transfer. That would have been the normal +procedure with us. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it is normal to have them transfer the +prisoner to you, rather than for you to go and get them, or both? + +Mr. DECKER. No; it is normal but it is not too much--they transfer +maybe one-tenth of maybe 1 percent, but as hot a piece of merchandise +as this prisoner was, chances are Captain Fritz and his men would have +attempted to bring him from the city hall to the courthouse. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, except in rare instances, meaning a +situation of this sort, you send your men to the city jail to get them? + +Mr. DECKER. Day in and day out. We have a paddy wagon for that purpose +and a driver for the purpose and uniforms and insignias and all on it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you make any efforts to take custody of +Oswald? + +Mr. DECKER. I can't tell you that as to when--the homicide occurred +and the boy was taken in custody in the afternoon and that was on a +Friday--I'm not going to tell you for certain because there was so much +and on Friday afternoon we were taking statements in my office--you +know--this thing happened, occurred just across the street from my +office and we moved all the witnesses when we were on the ground there +at the scene, all the witnesses we could locate--I was working there +and I had Inspector Sawyer, who is there with me, and also Heitman +of the FBI and my assistant chief deputy, and every witness, just as +we picked up a witness that had any information at all, we sent him +directly across the street to my office and reduced his statement to +writing. Then, I talked to Fritz after he arrived. + +We had by then located the gun and the ammunition, my officers had +located it in the building, and was awaiting the arrival of the scene +searchers and also the arrival of my scene searchers and Fritz arrived +and then I talked to Fritz and then we went across the street and he +phoned and that's when I learned Oswald had been formerly employed +there at that building. + +And, Fritz went to the city--now, here's something I'm uncertain +about--whether I talked to him that afternoon or the next day about +this removal, I cannot tell you because there was so much happening and +so much press in our hair, I couldn't say, but I did discuss with him +and advise with that I wished to be notified when he started to move +this boy, so that I would have my security in shape to receive him when +he arrived there. + +Mr. HUBERT. You think that was no later than Saturday, the 23d? + +Mr. DECKER. Oh, no; it wasn't. I don't think it was any later than +that--no. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understood you, you couldn't tell +whether it was on Friday or Saturday, but it could not have been Sunday? + +Mr. DECKER. No; it wasn't Sunday. I remember there were different +conversations on Sunday, different conversations on Saturday and +different conversations on Saturday night. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, perhaps if you can, you can tell us about these +various conversations, if you remember them--who they were with and +about what time? + +Mr. DECKER. Well, on Saturday, the homicide, I believe, if I'm +correct--now, the date of the homicide of Oswald was what? + +Mr. HUBERT. It was Sunday the 24th. + +Mr. DECKER. The 24th--Sunday. Friday, after we had completed our +investigation and gotten our files together to some extent, we then +closed shop, shall we say, and went back into our routine work, and on +Saturday arrival at our office we then again, I'm reasonably sure that +was the day, we talked about moving Oswald but I just don't remember. +That's one of those things you just don't remember the date. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you talked to Fritz? + +Mr. DECKER. That's when I talked to Fritz. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did Fritz tell you, do you know? + +Mr. DECKER. He said he would notify me when he was ready to move. + +Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't ready at that time? + +Mr. DECKER. He wasn't ready at that time, witnesses were being brought +in, he was still interviewing witnesses. Now, then, later that +afternoon the rumor was out that they were going to bring him down--of +course, we had rumors, rumors, rumors all the day, because we had +worldwide press and they were in the city hall, you couldn't get in the +city hall for them and they were running back and forth down to our +pressroom, and this word was here that they were coming, so late that +afternoon, on Saturday, Jim Kerr was the first man that brought me the +date of the 10 o'clock transfer Sunday morning. Jim Kerr is associated +with channel 5, and there were several of the pressmen in my office and +members of my staff and we were discussing it and later in the evening, +later about 9 o'clock it was getting on to be, and he notified us they +were going to move in and I think I then confirmed that with someone in +the city and they said yes--the next morning at 10 o'clock and then I +went to my home. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did they say "Next morning at 10," or not before 10? + +Mr. DECKER. They said "around 10 o'clock." + +Mr. HUBERT. You got that, though, from newsmen, you think? + +Mr. DECKER. Jim Kerr is the man that gave me the information. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't talk to Fritz or Curry about that? + +Mr. DECKER. No; but I checked it up at the city with somebody there, +and I don't know who it was now. + +Mr. HUBERT. You, yourself, don't know who it was? + +Mr. DECKER. I checked it on the telephone. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember who you talked to? + +Mr. DECKER. No; I don't remember who I talked to. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it was confirmed that he would not be moved that night? + +Mr. DECKER. It was confirmed that he wouldn't be moved that night and +that's all there was to it. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you say your normal operations went on and I assume you +went to your home? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to your office on Sunday, the 24th of +November? + +Mr. DECKER. It was before 10--around 10 o'clock--wait a minute, let +me see if I can refresh my memory just a little bit here [examining +records in his possession]. I am considering that time of when I +was advised by the city that transfer might be made the first time, +if you care to incorporate this in there--the first time was 3:30 +p.m. Saturday. At that time it was not at 10 o'clock. I have this +note--however, I arrived at my office early Sunday morning to recheck +all security measures that had been provided for the transfer of +Oswald, so what would be early for me, sir, I am a man that doesn't get +down to the office until 9 o'clock, and so if I arrived at 9 o'clock, +that would be early arrival for me, so you can place it near that +period. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Decker, I would like for you to carry on from there in +narrative form as to just all of the events that happened as they came +to your knowledge. + +Mr. DECKER. You mean on that morning, on Sunday morning? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DECKER. For additional security, I placed all members of the +press--you see, I forgot to give you this a moment ago--on Saturday +afternoon and Saturday night when they learned that they were going to +transfer Oswald down there, the world's press moved from the 2000 block +on Main to the 500 block on Main. They were laying on my floor, they +were laying on the sidewalks---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean that was Saturday night? + +Mr. DECKER. That was Saturday night, waiting for the Sunday morning +transfer. They just started moving out of the city hall and moved down +there--suddenly they were all over the streets, the sidewalks, the +floors, we had cameras running out our ears. + +Mr. HUBERT. Television too? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes; everything--live television moved in, and some +remained at the city, you see, and they set up down there a press--back +and forth--so, I heard that my halls were full and my carport was full, +so I moved them all out. I told them to come in the building, bring +their cameras with them, that they were going to utilize, and the +remainder not operate unless they were on the street--into a room--you +will have to see my building to realize it--it's where you walk in +the front, you see, the building is on Main and you come in the rear +from the carport. There is a room that runs down about 45 or 40 feet, +which is just an open hall space and a room where people stand who are +attempting to get information out of the jail or visit someone in the +jail, and I moved them into that and closed the doors on them. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you cleared them from where? + +Mr. DECKER. I cleared them from the carport, where the man would be +brought in, and put them behind locked doors--I'm talking about steel +doors, now. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, there was no news press or anybody else at the spot +where the prisoner would be brought? + +Mr. DECKER. Well, there may have been some on the street--I'm not so +sure of that--but what I mean, I cleared the port and kept them in this +room where they could only see him as he came by one door and by the +second door, and they were away from him a distance then. He was to be +in the carport and they were 20 or 25 feet back in the building. + +Mr. HUBERT. You say you had them under lock and key, but they could see +out--could they see through windows? + +Mr. DECKER. No; bars, they were barred doors. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. + +Mr. DECKER. They were barred doors. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you put all the press people out there? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you check to see whether they were press people or not? + +Mr. DECKER. All in all--I was under the impression that they were--that +the majority of them were press people. I don't think there was anybody +in that room that wasn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did you have any system of checking? + +Mr. DECKER. No; I didn't personally check and search each one of them +because they had so darn much equipment--everybody had equipment--I +don't care who they were, and I had my officers mix and mingle with +them and knew most of them. You see, we got pretty well acquainted with +that press for 2 or 3 days there because they were continually in our +hair, you see. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; go ahead. + +Mr. DECKER. At the outside drive, or at the entrance to my carport--I +moved a couple of my men--four or five of my special men there to be +sure that it was clear when the man did arrive. I had been notified by +Curry that maybe they would bring him down in an armored car and I had +some other rumors--they would be bringing him in a car, and about that +time on those live TV cameras in that room, the flash came that shots +had been fired, that there was a riot on in the basement of the city +hall, and if you will pardon my French and you don't need to put this +in here, young lady, "We caught lightening in the jug in that room," +sir. There is no question. They tried to crawl the walls, they tried to +tear down those barred doors, they tried to do everything to get out of +there and it looked like I would never get them out of the damn room. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean the ones you had locked up? + +Mr. DECKER. The press--they were locked up and couldn't get out of +there with all of their equipment, so as I say, "We caught lightening +in the jug." There wasn't any question. Finally, I got the doors +open and they tore out on Main Street and out on Houston Street and +commandeered cars with cameras hanging on their backs, some of their +own equipment, back up Main Street. I lost the majority of them then +for a few minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you been given any warning by the FBI that they had +received a message, or had the message been received, I think, by your +office, that some attempt would be made by a group to injure Oswald? + +Mr. DECKER. That's along 12:30 or 1 o'clock in the morning--that's when +that occurred. That's when I got on the telephone, you see, sir--I'm +sure that you don't understand this, but, you know, but no man--it +makes no difference how long he is an officer, ever imagined that he +could work on an investigation the size of this one and therefore, of +course, you realize that my officers and I'm sure some of the city +officers, myself included, were working under just a little bit of +pressure. + +Anyway, this thing you are talking about came to me from my office man, +Sergeant McCoy, and he had received a call from the Federal Bureau of +Investigation, Milt Newsom, who stated to him that this boy was going +to be killed and that he had good information. He relayed that message +to me at my home, and I asked him had the city been notified and he +said, "Yes." + +Mr. HUBERT. That was early in the morning, as I recall? + +Mr. DECKER. It was 12:30; 12:30 in the night. + +Mr. HUBERT. 12:30 on the morning of the 24th? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes; and I called that office and I talked to a man whom I +believe to be Frazier, is that correct? + +I don't know the gentleman only there by telephone conversation. + +Mr. HUBERT. You, yourself, talked to him and told him what you had +heard? + +Mr. DECKER. I told him what I had heard and talked to him about the +transfer, and I even went so far as to advise McCoy to call in a pair +of my supervisory personnel to stand by my office, that should they +decide to transfer this man, they would be available and we would have +the other men moved in there to make it secure--to have the security. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any suggestions that he be moved earlier than +the time that had been announced? + +Mr. DECKER. I did. I suggested to get the man on down to the lower end +of Main Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Before the time announced? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes; then. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who did you say that to--Frazier? + +Mr. DECKER. I'm sure I told it to Frazier and I'm sure there was one +or somebody in Fritz' office--I don't remember whether it was Baker or +Wells, I talked to one of those persons. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was when you got this call from the FBI? + +Mr. DECKER. When I got this call from my night sergeant. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was still nighttime? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes--it was in the morning--12:30 in the morning. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that he should be moved immediately? + +Mr. DECKER. I felt that he should be moved--yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What reply did you get? + +Mr. DECKER. They stated that they were going to ask him if he wouldn't +feel better to talk to his superiors and see what could be done. +He called me back shortly and stated that he had had no success +in contacting them, and I think that was about the extent of our +conversation. I kept my men, my supervisory personnel standing by in +the event that they did change their timing or anything and notified +us. I asked him if he had any success to call me and that we would make +arrangements to take care of the prisoner either way, and I meant by +that that we would transfer him or whatever was necessary to be done. + +Mr. HUBERT. At this point let me ask you: When a man is transferred to +your custody, may he thereafter be interviewed by the city police? + +Mr. DECKER. Anybody who wishes to. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that Captain Fritz and others could have continued their +investigation? + +Mr. DECKER. It's not customary for them to bring a prisoner down until +they have finished their investigation in the city. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but the transfer to you would not have +cut off their opportunity to investigate? + +Mr. DECKER. Oh, no--no--it wouldn't have cut it off to anybody--any law +enforcing agency. Just the same as Ruby, Ruby has been interviewed in +my jail by city police, the FBI agents, and incidentally may I ask you +a question? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well---- + +Mr. DECKER. If you can answer it, all well and good--I can't. I keep +getting information here that we are going to have you people--you +people are going to attempt to interview this prisoner that I have +now, and if that is correct, why of course I would like to make some +provisions to talk to somebody before it happens. Of course, it will +take a court order for me to move him, which of course you know is no +trouble to obtain--you know that. + +Mr. HUBERT. I can't comment on that. + +Mr. DECKER. Don't, if you can't, sir--it's all right, but of course +I am leaving that with you that I would like to have some advance +knowledge. You can comment on that--that you will do it if you have any +knowledge. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I'm sure if such a decision is made by the people who +are authorized to make it, that they will cooperate with you in every +way possible. + +Mr. DECKER. And, I would like to keep it out of the press also because +every time I turn around with Mr. Ruby, I am blasted with this. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that's another matter--that's out of my control. + +Mr. DECKER. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. I repeat that I think that if such a thing should come +about, that you would be contacted and that the various problems that +might exist in the matter would be discussed with you fully and that +the persons representing the Commission would cooperate with you. + +Mr. DECKER. I'm sure they will. + +Mr. HUBERT. In every way you wish them to do so, consistent, of course, +with their mission. + +Mr. DECKER. It makes no difference. I'm sorry, but I don't seem to have +in this file Perry McCoy's statement. I think you have a statement from +McCoy. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. DECKER. He made one--stating the times that he talked to the man, +the conversations, and substantiated exactly practically what I said to +you. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think we have covered the point. + +Mr. DECKER. I know you have because I sent him up there to be +interviewed. + +Mr. HUBERT. I have heretofore shown you two documents identified as +follows: The first being a report of an interview of you by Officer +Neeley. + +Mr. DECKER. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. On November 27, 1963. + +Mr. DECKER. That's where I told him I didn't wish to discuss the matter +any further over the telephone. + +Mr. HUBERT. I have identified it by marking on the margin, "Dallas, +Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5321, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. +Decker." That consists of one page. + +The second document also consists of one page. It is a report of an +interview by James W. Bookhout of you on November 28, 1963. That +document I have marked for identification as follows: + +"Dallas, Texas, April 16, 1964, Exhibit 5322, Deposition of Sheriff +J. E. Decker," and I have signed my name. I think you have had an +opportunity to read these two? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. I should like to ask you, sir, if these documents are fair +statements of the interviews that you had with the FBI agents indicated? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are they correct? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make with respect to either one of +them? + +Mr. DECKER. No, sir; I think they speak for themselves, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. May I ask if you have any particular comment, sheriff, to +make with regard to the last paragraph of exhibit 5321, which reads in +part as follows: + +"Sheriff Decker stated that he had no desire to discuss this matter +further and does not desire to furnish any details of the conversations +he had with the Police Department and declined to say whether he +advised the Police Department he had a preference as to the time of day +the transfer of the prisoner should be made." + +Mr. DECKER. That was a telephone conversation. I had an office full of +people and that's what it was and I didn't make any statement--no more +than I made directly to you here about the call, and which McCoy made, +which is a statement which you have from McCoy in your files. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, then, your explanation of the paragraph +is that you did not wish to discuss the matter further over the +telephone and in the presence of the people who were there? + +Mr. DECKER. Well, I don't believe I went that far. I just said I didn't +care to discuss it any further and I got my friend Neeley off the line. +That's all there was to it. And I never had the opportunity to talk +to him afterward again until I met him several days ago, you know, he +works in north Texas and is in and out, but that's all the conversation +he and I had--what you have there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I had in mind to ask you was this: On the face +of the paragraph that I have just read from Exhibit 5321, it looks like +there was an attitude on your part that you didn't wish to cooperate +with the FBI--I am just simply wanting to get the record straight from +your point of view--as to what was your intention. + +Mr. DECKER. As I said at that time--I didn't care to discuss it any +further at that time. That's all there is to it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand, but this paragraph is correct and stands +as it is? + +Mr. DECKER. Yes, sir; I did not--at that time I didn't discuss it. +There was no reason to go into why, and why--I told him my reasons a +moment ago. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, sheriff, I have noticed that you have looked from +time to time at a book which I gather must be your own or the official +record? + +Mr. DECKER. No; it's part of my records there. It doesn't have all the +statements in it as it should have. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were copies of those statements made--are they available? + +Mr. DECKER. They are yours--you can have them if you want them to keep +them. + +Mr. HUBERT. This copy? + +Mr. DECKER. You can have the whole thing. The only thing that is not +in there is McCoy's and about three or four other statements. I will +submit the whole thing to you if you want it right now. You can take it +with you. I have no objections. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to have this returned to you--this seems to be +a copy anyway--this is not the original. + +Mr. DECKER. Yes; those are photostatic copies. I can furnish you those +others--I can furnish you that copy on McCoy and I can furnish the +copy on two or three others that I have down there but I don't know +where McCoy's is and I don't know whether they left it out of there or +not--since McCoy's I have testified to, I would like to furnish it to +you. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Mr. DECKER. And will send it to you shortly. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark this document, then--I am marking it, "Dallas, +Tex., April 16, 1964, as Exhibit 5323, Deposition of Sheriff J. E. +Decker," and I am signing my name to it. + +The document is actually a dark brown heavy folder with an Acco +fastener. It is called Acco Press on the inside and bears the label +on the outside, "Harvey Lee Oswald, WM 24, Murder--11-22-63 of John +Fitzgerald Kennedy; W-M-46, President of the United States. Assault to +murder: Gov. John B. Connally." On the left hand bottom side of the +cover is a sticker on which there is typewritten "File of: Sheriff's +Department, Dallas, Tex., Bill Decker, Sheriff," under which I have +written the identification of it as I dictated it a moment ago into the +record. + +Turning on to the inside of the book, it seems to be divided up into +parts. There is a yellow, light cardboard division marker, which in the +left hand bottom says, "Crime Reports." In that are 2 yellow sheets +and 10 white sheets. I am marking the cover with my initials and the +yellow and white sheets with my initials, all in the lower right hand +corner. The next subdivision which is made by a light cardboard sheet, +is entitled, "Witness affidavits." I am marking it with my initials. + +Mr. DECKER. Now, you are supposed to have copies of all of those +affidavits come to you from some agency--I don't know which. + +Mr. HUBERT. And, each of the sheets thereof I am marking with my +initials. There are 35 of such sheets. + +Then, in the last part of the book, also divided by a light yellow +cardboard sheet on which I am putting my initials, that division sheet +is entitled "Officers supplement," and there are 42 sheets which I have +marked with my initials. Is this document, Sheriff Decker, that you +have handed me a complete record of what you have concerning Oswald? I +think you mentioned that there might be one document or two that you +wished to send me? + +Mr. DECKER. I would like to send you a copy of McCoy's statement, a +copy of McCoy's report in there and maybe a couple of other statements, +that's all. There may be some others--I can send those to you +anywhere--Washington or anywhere, it makes no difference, or I can send +them up here to you in the next 45 minutes after I leave here. + +Mr. HUBERT. After lunch will be all right. + +Mr. DECKER. Fine, I will send them up. + +Mr. HUBERT. I will just attach them to this exhibit. + +Mr. DECKER. That's all right--they belong in there and I don't know how +they got out, but in comparing them, making a new one up, you lose some +once in a while--as much paperwork as we do in law enforcement fields +this day and time, you lose a heck of a lot of it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Sheriff Decker, has any member of the Commission's +staff interviewed you other than myself? + +Mr. DECKER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything further you wish to add? + +Mr. DECKER. I don't know why I should take any more of your time. You +have practically everything I have that is of value to you. If there is +anything further you want--we are available and you have a big job to +do---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, that's all right--that's what I'm here for. + +Mr. DECKER. I know that. + +Mr. HUBERT. But if we know all that you know, then that's all right. + +Mr. DECKER. That's right--so, there is no reason of going over it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that considering your testimony here +today and what you have told the FBI and your records---- + +Mr. DECKER. And my records that I have given to you--turned over to +you and what my other deputies have given to you, I don't know of any +reason to take up any more of your time, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. + +Mr. DECKER. I will be delighted to have you come and see my operation +before you leave and it might clear up some things there for you. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you. + +Mr. DECKER. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CAPT. W. B. FRAZIER + +The testimony of Capt. W. B. Frazier was taken at 2 p.m., on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. W. B. Frazier, Dallas +Police Department. Captain Frazier, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a +member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. + +Captain FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive +Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution +of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the +President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the +joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition +from you, among many officers of the detective bureau. Your name +has been specifically mentioned as a person from whom I could take +a sworn deposition. I state to you now that the general nature of +the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon +the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, +Captain Frazier, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what +facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts +you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Captain, you have appeared +here today by virtue of a letter addressed to Chief Curry by Mr. J. +Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel for the President's Commission. +Under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness is entitled +to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition. The +rules also provide, however, that if the witness wishes he may waive +the 3-day notice in writing. I say to you that you have a right to the +3-day notice, which you have not received, but I ask you if you wish to +waive that 3 day---- + +Captain FRAZIER. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't wish---- + +Captain FRAZIER. Oh, I will waive it. + +Mr. HUBERT. You do not wish to persist in your right to have the 3-day +notice? + +Captain FRAZIER. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then I'll ask you to stand, sir, and raise your right hand +to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Captain FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please? + +Mr. FRAZIER. William Bennett Frazier. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Forty-three. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 2205 Newcastle, Garland, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Police officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police department of Dallas? + +Mr. FRAZIER. For 17-1/2 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have the rank of captain? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What particular function or duties are you assigned to in +the department, sir? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I am in charge of the radio patrol platoon. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Chief N. T. Fisher. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same rank and the same duties during the +period November 22 to 24, 1963? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I did, yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were on duty on the morning of +the 24th of November, is that correct, sir? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty? Do you know? + +Mr. FRAZIER. At 11 p.m., on the 23d. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that is what they call the first shift? + +Mr. FRAZIER. First platoon. + +Mr. HUBERT. First platoon, rather, and that goes until roughly 7 in the +morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Around 7; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you been on duty the night before, that is, on first +platoon. That would have been---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. What day would it have been, sir? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would have been the 23d. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I mean, what day of the week. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, the day before would have been Saturday. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time. That would have been +the first platoon. Yes, sir; I was on duty at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was your office, in fact, in the building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. On the second floor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do at all with the interrogation, +or the security of Oswald? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 24th of November, about in the middle of the +shift there, about 3 or 3:30 or 3:45 that morning, I understand you +received a telephone call from an FBI agent, is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; Mr. Newsom, I believe his name is. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how it came to you? How did the call come +to you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Newsom called me and said he had received a threat +from some man to the effect that a group of men, I believe he +indicated they had 100 or 200, I don't recall the exact number, were +going to attempt to kill Oswald that day sometime. That he didn't want +the FBI, Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office injured in +any way. That was the reason for the call. So, Mr. Newsom called me and +related that story to me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you in charge of the police department at the time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I was in charge of the patrol section. + +Mr. HUBERT. Patrol section? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What other senior officers were on duty? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I guess I was the senior on any division at that morning; +yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, Chief Curry was not there, Chief +Batchelor was not there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Stevenson was not there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Fisher. He was not there. + +Mr. HUBERT. You, in fact, were the ranking officer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. On duty at that time; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of that? I mean, are you made aware of that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes, sir; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. How is it done? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, just the fact that the officers under--who rank +under you are there, and there is nobody of equal rank or higher +present in the entire police department, it reverts to you. + +Mr. HUBERT. The highest in rank is in charge of the whole operation? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, if someone had asked for who was in--if Newsom had +asked to speak to the top man in charge, you were that man, that day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard any of that news of that sort from another +source? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Deputy Cox, or Coy in the +sheriff's---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. I talked to that man later on in the morning after Mr. +Newsom called me. But I don't know the name, whether it was Coy, or +Cox, but he indicated that Sheriff Decker wanted to talk to Chief Curry +in regards to moving Oswald, so, I, in turn then attempted to contact +Chief Curry by telephone and his line was busy. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I don't know. 5:45, 6 o'clock, somewhere along there. Then +I tried for some 10 or 15 minutes to get his line, and it was busy, so, +I asked the operator to check into it. She came back and said the line +was out of order, so, I in turn, was preparing to send a squad by the +chief's home and tell him of the information and that Decker wanted +him to call him and Captain Talbert relieved me around 6 or 6:15. I +give him the information and he said he sent a squad later and told the +chief about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think earlier you had called Captain Fritz, hadn't you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I called Captain Fritz once or twice in an effort to +see if they were handling it or if the chief was handling it, or if +homicide--Captain Fritz was handling it. Since he is the captain in +charge of that particular bureau, so, naturally I called him first. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was when you got the message from Newsom? + +Mr. FRAZIER. A little while later; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He said I should talk to Chief Curry, that he was handling +the transfer. + +Mr. HUBERT. That Chief Curry---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; not him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Not him? Did he tell you of any plans made for the +transfer? Did Captain Fritz tell you of any plans made for the transfer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, sir. He may have said--I'm not sure. I +heard this later on in the morning, I think, but I'm not sure. He +may have said then that he planned to move him around 10 the next +day. I don't recall whether he said it or some other officer said it +later on in the morning, but I did hear it. Now, I don't say whether +Captain Fritz is the one that told me or not. I don't recall the exact +conversation there other than the fact that I had asked him if he was +handling it and he said, "No." Chief Curry was handling it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you spoke to Mr. Newsom from the +FBI whether Mr. Newsom told you that the Dallas Sheriff's Office had +received a similar call to the one he was relating to you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; I don't recall that. He possibly--he could have said +it, but I do not recall it, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. When the gentlemen from the sheriff's office, either Cox or +Coy, called you that was simply about when the transfer was going to +take place, is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I assume that is what it was. He indicated to me that +Decker wanted to get ahold of Chief Curry and move him as soon as +possible. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did that man mention to you about the receipt of any +threats such as Newsom had told you about? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I believe he did. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was the second threat you had received that morning? +In other words, the threat came from two sources, so far as you know. +You heard it from the FBI, and this man from the sheriff's office? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Indicated---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Indicated that he had received a threat? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I believe he did; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember saying to Mr. Newsom that the plan to +transfer Oswald to the county jail might be changed in view of the +threat that he had conveyed to you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir. That wasn't any of my business, that +transfer, and I'm sure I didn't relate that to him, because I'd be +telling him something that I didn't know about, really, at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling Mr. Newsom of the FBI, on the +occasion that he called you that morning around 2 or 2:30, that +Oswald's plans of transfer had been publicized primarily as a form of +cooperation with press and news agencies? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not make that---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Huh-uh. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not make that statement? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I did not make any such statement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there any planned transfer, to your knowledge? + +Mr. FRAZIER. All I knew that they was supposed to move the next day, +and then perhaps later in the morning I--maybe Captain Fritz told me +that they were supposed to move him around 10 a.m., that morning. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is as to time, but did you know of any plans prior to +going off duty that day as to the method, the route, and the vehicles +to be used? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go off duty, sir? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was around 6 or 6:15, or something like that, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come back then? + +Mr. FRAZIER. If that was---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the department and go home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I went home and I went to bed. I was asleep when +Oswald was shot. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. My wife awakened me shortly thereafter. She had seen it on +TV. She was watching the transfer on TV, and she awakened me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I called and asked if they needed me. They said, +"No, stay where you are. You will have to work tonight." So, I stayed +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Fritz has said--did I understand you to say, that Curry was +in charge of all transfers? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Was in charge of that transfer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of that particular--of Oswald's transfer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of W. J. Harrison, I think +they call him "Blackie," a detective? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he is a patrolman temporarily assigned to CID. +Yes, sir; I believe he is in the juvenile bureau. I'm not sure, but I +think he is. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him talk about his experiences on the +24th? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't seen him. I haven't seen "Blackie" in, +I guess, 6 months or so, maybe longer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Patrick Dean? + +Mr. FRAZIER. P. T. Dean? Sergeant Dean? I know him; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to him about his activities on that day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he works on another platoon and another captain +and I don't come in contact with him very often except just to say +hello as we are going off duty or coming on and only one I confer with +is the captain in charge of the platoon coming on when I leave. + +Mr. HUBERT. The radio patrol is what, actually? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is the regular squad car, two-man squad car that +patrols the entire city. We have anywhere from 185 to 205 men on duty +at most platoons. However, our day platoon is our lowest. It will run +120, 125. + +Mr. HUBERT. These men are cruising areas? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; districts. + +Mr. HUBERT. And they are controlled by radio communication from your +office? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; from the dispatcher's office, which is---- + +Mr. HUBERT. So, if you want to contact any of those people you can do +it directly, you do it through a dispatcher? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Through the dispatcher; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you--were you on duty when the President was shot? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you called in? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You just took your regular shift at 11 o'clock that night? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had gotten off at 7 o'clock? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 6 or 7 that morning; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. If we would want to find out about the dispatch sent out +right after the President's death, or right before, whom would we +contact? What would be the name of the officer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Lumpkin, George Lumpkin. + +Mr. HUBERT. Lumpkin? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he is in charge of all communications and +I believe most of that is on tape. They tried to tape most of the +conversations. + +Mr. HUBERT. They keep the tape? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; permanent records, as I understand it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which I have marked for +identification with the following inscription, in my own handwriting, +"Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5086, deposition of W. B. +Frazier." I have signed the first page, and placed my initials in +the lower right hand corner of the second page. I'll ask you if +that statement--if you have read that document and whether it is +substantially correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you, therefore, if you would sign your name +under mine and place your initials under mine on the second page? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right here, sir? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; right there and then sign your name on the front page +right under my signature there. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Over here? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. FRAZIER. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I hand you another document which I have marked +for--"Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5087, deposition of W. B. +Frazier." I have signed my name to the bottom of this document which +purports to be a report by Special Agent Melton L. Newsom of the FBI, +of a conversation which he had over the telephone with you on November +24, 1963, at about 3:20 a.m., and I'll ask you if that report by Mr. +Newsom of that conversation is a correct report of that conversation? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe it is. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you indicate what parts are correct and what parts +are wrong? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Now, you are asking of my own knowledge, is that correct? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this first paragraph here, I know nothing of this. +Mr. Glassup. He didn't talk to me. + +Mr. HUBERT. No; I think the---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. And, he received the call I understand here, and it goes +into, "I represent a committee that--it is neither right nor left +wing," and so forth. I didn't get all that in the conversation with +Newsom, that I recall. Newsom told me that a group of men, I believe he +indicated a hundred or two were going to kill Oswald the following day, +the day after the night--or, you know, the next day or two. Now, that +was essentially what he told me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you say he didn't tell you that had been received by +Glassup? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he said they received information, or threats. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he give you the exact language of the threat, as +indicated in that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. He simply told you that they had received the threat and +the sense of the threat was along the lines of the paragraph, first +paragraph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, neither mentioned Glassup's name, nor did he speak the +exact quoted language which--when he spoke to you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the next paragraph, second paragraph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is essentially correct. However, I believe +he did advise the Dallas sheriff's office had received a similar call. +That is essentially correct, that paragraph. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; what about the third paragraph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The third paragraph, I don't recall making that statement. + +Mr. HUBERT. What about the fourth paragraph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Because, at that time, I did not know exactly what the +plans were to move Oswald, see. + +Mr. HUBERT. And what about the last paragraph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean to say that you do not recall? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I do not recall making that statement to Mr. +Newsom. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to do this then with reference to that +document. Just place the word, next to the last paragraph, "incorrect," +and initial it. + +Mr. FRAZIER. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you initialled it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, with that---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. And the top paragraph. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, the top paragraph---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. I couldn't attest to that either. + +Mr. HUBERT. Please explain what your position is on it, and if you +would like to sign your name just below mine so then we have the matter +in hand. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything else that you would like to state +that has not been said? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; nothing more to my knowledge. + +Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the commencement of this deposition with you, have +you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's Staff? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were not interviewed by me, in fact, before it began? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CAPT. O. A. JONES + +The testimony of Capt. O. A. Jones was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the Dallas deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones, Forgery +Bureau, Dallas Police Department. My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a +member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. + +Under the Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, +1963, the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of +procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive +order and the Commission, I have been authorized to take the sworn +deposition from you, Mr. Jones. I state to you now that the general +nature on the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report +upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and +the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular as to you Captain Jones, the nature of the inquiry today +is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any +other pertinent fact you may know about the general inquiry. Captain +Jones, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made +by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission to +Chief Curry. + +Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a +3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. The rules +of the Commission also provide that the witness may waive the notice. +Do you waive the 3-day notice now? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you be sworn, please? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Captain JONES. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Captain Jones, please state your full name? + +Captain JONES. Orville [spelling] O-r-v-i-l-l-e Aubrey [spelling] +A-u-b-r-e-y Jones. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Captain JONES. Forty-nine. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? + +Captain JONES. 2603 Alco [spelling] A-l-c-o Avenue, Dallas 11, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, Captain Jones? + +Captain JONES. Captain in the city police department, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that rank, sir? + +Captain JONES. April of 1957. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular assignment now? + +Captain JONES. Commanding officer in the forgery bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are under Chief Stevenson? + +Captain JONES. M. W. Stevenson is my superior officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your rank and duties were the same during the period of +November 22 and 24, 1963? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain, I show you three documents which I am +numbering--I show you three documents upon which I am writing the +following in the lower right-hand corner. "Dallas, Texas, March 24, +1964. Exhibit No. 5054, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." Beneath which +I have signed my name, Leon D. Hubert. The second document which I am +endorsing "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5055, deposition +of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my signature below that. That +document consisting of three pages, and I am initialing--two other--to +revert back for a moment to No. 5054, that has a second page and I am +placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower +right-hand corner. Third document, I am writing on the right-hand +margin the following: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5056. +Deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones," and I am signing my name below that. +That document containing three pages. I am taking my initials and +placing them on the second and third pages. Now, Captain, I think you +have read these three documents which I---- + +Captain JONES. I have; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to place your name below mine on each +one of these pages, please, and your initials below mine on the other +pages, after which I'm going to ask you some questions concerning these +documents. + +Captain JONES. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just below mine and then initial the second and third page +below my initials there. Now, Captain, I think you have already stated +that you have read these three documents? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5054, 5055, and 5056, and I am going to ask you if, +in your opinion, those documents represent the truth, or if you have +any kind of amendments, modifications, or additions that you want to +make? + +Captain JONES. There are some additions. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record what amendments or +modifications, whatever else you have to about the documents. + +Captain JONES. This is off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, back on the record. Anyhow, with reference directed at +5054, Captain, what have you to say as to that? That being a report of +Special Agents James W. Bookhout and Joseph M. Meyers, of an interview +of you by those gentlemen on November 25, 1963. + +Captain JONES. First, let me say that they make reference--they are +correct, but they have grouped together under "specific instructions +that I received." I received, at two different times, that is not at +the same time. At first, when I was sent downstairs Chief Stevenson +gave me instructions to go to the Commerce Street ramp, place two +patrolmen there to assist an armored car down that ramp to get it +backed as far down as possible, down in the basement---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave that, do you know about what time it was? + +Captain JONES. I'd say only about 11 o'clock, and it could have been +a little before because of the amount of time required on that, but I +didn't look at my watch. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you. + +Captain JONES. Do you want me to go on to the other points? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Captain JONES. The other part. In one sentence I gave, he has specific +instructions about keeping them back, and Chief Batchelor and Chief +Stevenson did so later when they came to the basement, and I called the +attention that photographers were out in the other part of the jail +office now, and there was nothing said upstairs--said about clearing +anything except what I said that one thing, except--take--taking any +detectives remaining on the third floor and placing them where I +wanted them, where I felt they would be needed. That goes into it a +little more in detail, but by having that in front of me right now. +If you could, I can show you the point that he states he instructed +me to secure the area for the transport of Lee Harvey Oswald from the +Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail--with additional specific +instructions from Chief Stevenson or Chief Batchelor or to have +detectives under their supervision to question the news media to keep +the basement east of the driveway--that came up after we got down in +the basement, and it reads maybe as if it was given at another place. + +Mr. HUBERT. What you have just read and commented upon is from the +first paragraph of a document 5054? Right? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead now. + +Captain JONES. The--in other words, the two instructions given +previously before I went to the basement were: One, to arrange to have +officers assist the armored truck which they told me was en route, to +back into the Commerce Street ramp down into the city hall and as far +as possible. Number two; take any remaining detectives from the third +floor down to the basement and place them where I thought they might be +needed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record how you carried out those +specific orders? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I made a round of all CIB Bureaus, with +the exception of homicide and robbery, which was working on the +assassination, and got--I can't tell you, two or three or some +detectives that were remaining, and we went down the elevator. This +is the one I went down with the--and I don't know who they were, and +don't have any names. Didn't make a detail--but I went up and did see +Patrolman Jez and one other patrolman that I don't know his name---- + +Mr. HUBERT. They were in uniform? + +Captain JONES. They were in uniform. They would remain and assist +the armored truck in backing down there. And the detectives that had +come with me were standing at the jail office. I had left them at the +door of the jail office, and coming back toward the ramp, I came upon +Captain Talbert, in charge of the patrol division, and told him that +Patrolman Jez and the other officer were up there and what the Chief +had said. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you any other comments to make +about---- + +Captain JONES. Now, that is all about that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that that is document 5054? + +Captain JONES. Let me check on this now for sure. That is--yes; that is +all right now. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. And Exhibit 5055. + +Captain JONES. May I ask you a question? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. + +Captain JONES. Now then, the instructions about checking that, you +want to get to that later that I got--where Chief Batchelor and Chief +Stevenson---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What I want to do is get through these documents. + +Captain JONES. All right, sir. Now, our next exhibit. That would be +5055? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. That is the letter addressed on November 26th, to +Chief J. E. Curry? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. This is a copy of the original which apparently was signed +by you? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you have read it. + +Captain JONES. I have read it, and only one thing on that. That is on +page 2, at the top--where I had two different directions running from +the jail office door across the ramp running east, and then I turned +and went south, and we called that east, too, but it is--only thing the +right is running, instead of east, should have read south. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where is that, sir? + +Captain JONES. All right, sir. I will show you. Up here this word +"east," probably should be "south." + +Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we change that from "this point running east," and +I will encircle it and put the word "south," and putting my own initial +below the change, and ask you if you would---- + +Captain JONES. Running east from the door of the jail office to the +rail on the opposite side, and down a line from this point running +south. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, just initial the change then and the word "east," which +we encircled and changed to "south," and Captain Jones and myself are +initialling the change. + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, do you have any changes that should be +made? + +Captain JONES. Let that stand. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then this document which I have identified as Exhibit +5056, being the report by the FBI, specifically by Agents Edward +Mabey and Kenneth Hughes [spelling] H-u-g-h-e-s, of an interview with +you, apparently, on December 2, 1963, and ask you if you have any +corrections to make as to that? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; there are one or two changes that I would like +to make in that. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Captain JONES. Let's see. Can I see it just one moment, sir? + +Mr. HUBERT. Sure. + +Captain JONES. All right. I would like to make the following changes. +At the bottom of page 1, of Exhibit--that is 5056, I believe? + +Mr. HUBERT. That's right. + +Captain JONES. The last sentence that reads, "Jones assisted in holding +back the press line during the process, and gave instructions to all +officers near the jail office and the door to allow no one in the area +from the jail to the automobile, down the route the prisoner was to +take." + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is your comment? + +Captain JONES. The comment is that the sentence should have read, +"Jones assisted holding back the press lines through the process of +moving the automobile onto the ramp." The rest of the sentence refers +back to just prior to that when the instructions had been given to keep +those things clear. Immediately following the clearing of the jail +office is when I gave those instructions at that time, to hold the +people back and get those--I did not have time or the opportunity, and +did not turn at that time and tell everybody that we were trying to get +the car back up into position. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you any change or comments to make upon the +document--5056? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; on page 2, of this same exhibit. + +Mr. HUBERT. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, back on the record. + +Captain JONES. Beginning with the first complete paragraph that says, +"Jones was walking up the Commerce Street ramp when he heard from +behind him, 'Here he comes,' from an unidentified individual," and on +that, there is only one change. + +Whereas, Jones was walking toward the Commerce Street ramp instead of +up it, now. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not---- + +Captain JONES. In other words, I was not up on the rise itself. I was +walking toward it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Heading from what direction? + +Captain JONES. From the general area in front of the jail office door, +out in the flat area. The ramps come down like [indicating] straighten +out. The jail is here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you wish to point out is that the +Commerce Street ramp takes an upturn about half way up the ramp? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that you want to indicate that you had not reached the +up-rise? + +Captain JONES. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, you were in the ramp that runs between Main and +Commerce, but on the level part? + +Captain JONES. On the level part, and walking toward the rise. + +Mr. HUBERT. Walking toward the rise. Any other comments concerning that? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; on page 3---- + +Mr. HUBERT. 5056? + +Captain JONES. 5056. + +Mr. HUBERT. What paragraph? + +Captain JONES. It will be the last sentence; begins on page 2. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; the last sentence beginning on page 2. Will you +read it then? + +Captain JONES. "Jones then placed two officers at the swinging door +just outside the jail office, and advised them not to let persons leave +who had proper identification---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Latter part of that sentence is at the top of page 3, of +that Exhibit 5056, is that right? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. The correction, sir, that is "Jones then +placed two officers at the swinging doors just outside the jail +office and advised them to let the reporters and news media who had +identification come to the third floor." + +Mr. HUBERT. Other than that change, that sentence, you think, is +correct? + +Captain JONES. That's correct, yes, sir. Now, I have one more. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. What page? + +Captain JONES. It is the last paragraph of page 3, first sentence that +reads---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about Exhibit 5056? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +"Due to the fact that Jones was recalled from vacation, he wasn't +present at any briefing on the security measures that were to be in +effect in the basement on November 24, 1963." + +Mr. HUBERT. All right? + +Captain JONES. Now, on that, I had been due to go on vacation on +Friday. I had continued on through. I don't know why I wasn't in on any +briefing or anything. I am going to say that is the reason I wasn't, +for I was down there, and that was, I'm sure--I have told the gentlemen +these facts and so forth, but that I didn't attend a briefing, that I +had planned to go on vacation immediately after the President's speech +at the the Trade Mart, and--but I can't say why I wasn't called in on +any briefing. I just wasn't in on any of them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just while we are on that subject, is it a fact that you +were supposed to go on a leave as soon as the President left Dallas? + +Captain JONES. On Friday; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. On Friday? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. In fact, did you go? + +Captain JONES. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state very briefly for me your activities from +the time of the night before the President's visit up until the 24th? +Just very briefly. + +Captain JONES. All right, sir. I had been assigned previously in the +week to have charge of the fourth floor at the Trade Mart where the +President's luncheon was to be held. On Thursday night before---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Wait. Thursday night? + +Captain JONES. Thursday night before the luncheon. I was rather wakeful +and a little nervous, certainly not anticipating an assassination, but +because of some unfortunate incidents in Dallas, there was a desire not +to have anything happen that would reflect on the city, and certainly +even a humiliating incident such as throwing paper, eggs, or shouting +or anything such as that. A little apprehensive about it, and didn't +sleep very much. Went out to the Trade Mart on Friday and stationed +quite a few officers at all the places on the fourth floor. + +I had a listing and a schedule and all that. Remained there until +afternoon--that is, after news of the assassination, and until we were +told that we could leave. I then returned to the city hall and en +route had cleared with the dispatcher that if he didn't have further +instructions for the group with me that we would return to the city +hall. + +I returned, and I immediately made every officer available to Captain +Fritz. I don't know how long that we worked that night for sure, but I +do know it was after 2 o'clock when the FBI Agent Vince Drain left the +city hall with some--some evidence he was going to take, and that was +about 2 o'clock, Saturday morning, the 24th. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home---- + +Captain JONES. Yes, I did go home for possibly 2 to 3 hours and laid +down. Didn't rest very much. We came back down Saturday and continued +working with Captain Fritz. Making my offices available and my men +available to him during the day Saturday until Saturday evening when we +filed our--our bureau filed the assault to murder charge on Oswald for +the shooting of Governor Connally, which is our bureau that, assault to +murder--that handles assault to murder. + +Captain Fritz' bureau handles murder, and by this time I--that was +filed, I began to help take incoming calls and to assist in any way +that I could up there in the administration offices. Stayed up there +until at least nearly midnight Saturday night. Went home, got a few +hours of troubled sleep that night. Before I left, Chief Stevenson +told me that it looked like my cases were all filed, everything was in +pretty good shape. I might as well go ahead and take my vacation as I +had planned and I told him I couldn't enjoy--a little fishing trip was +what I had planned--until it was all over. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me go back a moment. There was a lineup of some kind on +the night of Friday, November 22, at which Oswald was brought into the +lineup in the assembly room at the police department, at which a number +of news media were present. + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you present that night? + +Captain JONES. No, sir; I was on the third floor at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? + +Captain JONES. I have known him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just state how well and under what circumstances. + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I will be glad to do that. And I do want to +ask--can I say something off the record here? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Get back on the record. + +During the off-the-record period, Captain Jones simply explained to me +that he had omitted something from his comments relative to what? + +Captain JONES. Relative to knowing Jack Ruby. I've got to find---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Relative to what document? + +Captain JONES. 5056. Document 5056; that would be the first complete +paragraph on page 3, where it states, "Jones states that he did know +Ruby and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a +nightclub on South Central. He stated that prior to 1952, he was a +lieutenant covering this district and did go into the Silver Spur, at +the most, six times looking for white subjects." + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your comments on that? + +Captain JONES. The comment is that, "Jones stated that he did know +Ruby and had known him prior to 1952, when he ran the Silver Spur, a +nightclub on South Ervay." The next sentence should read, "He stated +that prior to 1952, he was a detective assigned mostly to colored +cases, but that occasionally we were assigned cases involving white +suspects, and on a few occasions did go in the Silver Spur during those +investigations." + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Captain JONES. I was asked how many times, and I could not estimate how +many times. I said, "Not over six times, probably, altogether." + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way to you. Did you know him well enough +so that you would have recognized him had he walked into a room? + +Captain JONES. That is a question in my mind that I doubt very much +that I would have. I did recognize him in the basement after someone +said--before I ever saw who it ever was in custody, that it was +Jack Ruby, and when I was told that in advance I did recognize him. +Otherwise, it is possible that I might have recognized him had I been +given that opportunity but I did not have the opportunity. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him, that is to say, Jack Ruby, in your rounds +of the basement any time, from the shooting of the President until the +shooting of Oswald? + +Captain JONES. To recognize him as such, I did not see him to recognize +him then. And after seeing him at the time of the arrest, I did not +recall having seen him even as a face in the crowd prior to that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that now with the consideration after having +been told that it was Jack Ruby and recognizing him, you still don't +remember having seen---- + +Captain JONES. I did not see that particular man in there, and not +having recognized him, I don't recall seeing that face, at any time. +This is with the full knowledge that since this matter I have found +that one of my own men filed a simple assault case on him about a year +ago, but I wasn't aware of that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any plans that had been made at that time +for the transportation of Oswald, prior to leaving to go home on +Saturday night, the 23d of November? + +Captain JONES. That is one of the questions that I am going to have +to say that things have come up that during my investigation that +I headed following the shooting of Oswald, by Ruby--that I headed +a team of several lieutenants, and one detective investigating the +security in the basement--and I have some knowledge as a result of that +investigation, that no one came to me and told me about the possible +transfer, or--possible transfer, or any plans for a transfer prior to +me going home Saturday night. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that the plan was not to transfer Oswald +until at least 10 o'clock on Sunday morning? + +Captain JONES. It seems to me as if possibly there was something about +that in my mind, but I can't tell you where I got it, but there was +some talk around there. I don't know whether the time was 10 o'clock, +or 9 o'clock, and since that time I have talked to people that said, +"I don't know," but it does seem to me that I was under the impression +that when I got up Sunday morning that if I got down there before 9 +o'clock, he possibly would not have been transferred by that time, but +so help me, I cannot think--I cannot say how that I knew that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you another way. Were you given any +specific duty to perform or anything relative to the transfer whenever +that would take place? + +Captain JONES. You mean prior to that 11 o'clock, when I was sent to +the basement? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; prior to Saturday night. + +Captain JONES. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Prior to leaving on Saturday night---- + +Captain JONES. In fact, I was told that if I wanted to go on my fishing +trip, I could go. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, then you got back at what time? + +Captain JONES. I would say somewhere roughly around 9 o'clock, couldn't +have been much after that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything between 9 and, say, 10 o'clock? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; I sure did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you did. + +Captain JONES. I was answering the telephone, and I can't recall +specific things. It was just things that come up that needed doing +right then. Getting calls---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you the same question I asked about the other +period. Were you given any specific duties to do, or specific functions +as to supervising concerning the transfer of Oswald during this period +of 9 to, say, 11 o'clock, or roughly 11 o'clock, on the 24th? + +Captain JONES. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you simply answering the phone? + +Captain JONES. I came in and started answering the phone, and started +doing whatever appeared necessary for me to do. + +Mr. HUBERT. What then happened next? + +Captain JONES. Well, that went on for almost 2 hours or somewhere near +that and then at approximately 11 o'clock is when Chief Stevenson came +to me, and I don't know whether he came in from one of the offices. I +was in the big lobby out front of the chief's office, but I came to the +double doors where the secretaries have their desks, and he came to +me and told me to go down to the basement of the city hall, go up the +Commerce Street ramp and place two officers there to assist an armored +truck that was en route to be used in the transfer of Oswald. Have +those two officers there assist that truck in backing down into the +basement as far as possible. "I don't know whether it will go all the +way or not," also to take any available detectives on the third floor +to the basement and place them where I thought they might be needed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions? + +Captain JONES. I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us in what way you did so? + +Captain JONES. All right, sir. I went to the automobile theft bureau, +juvenile bureau, my own forgery bureau and--burglary and theft bureau, +and got any detectives available to have them report to me at the jail +office, and it seems to me, as I say, as if two or three detectives +went with me. I couldn't tell you how many it was in the elevator going +down with me, but--nor who they were, but I do know that when we got to +the jail office I then asked them to remain in one place and I went out +the door on the ramp, or on the driveway and up the ramp to Commerce +Street, called Patrolman Jez and another officer, uniformed policeman, +then. Relayed Chief Stevenson's instructions not to leave there that +the truck was en route. + +In coming back down the ramp I encountered Captain Talbert, who is in +charge of the patrol division, and because Chief Stevenson had sent +me down there to do that, I informed him of the instructions I had so +that he wouldn't inadvertently move them, and then I returned to the +officers in the basement--jail office, and just standing outside there. +And from here on in--many times--I can tell you most of the things that +happened. I am sure I may be a little unsure of the time, or sequence +of things, for there in a matter of a few minutes quite a lot of things +were done, but I returned into there and told the officers to remain +there, that---- + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say that you returned---- + +Captain JONES. To the jail office on the basement floor. Now, who they +were, I don't know. I am sure some of it is mentioned in the individual +officers' reports that we have, of the ones that were there that I was +talking to and told them as far as I knew the armored car was going, +that was going to transfer him, that was backed up, it was backed up +there and we would see the prisoner was safely escorted over to that. +Meantime, someone, I couldn't tell---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Just 1 minute. Before that, had you been told by Chief +Stevenson when he instructed you to go down to the Commerce Street ramp +and make arrangements for the handling of the armored truck---- + +Captain JONES. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told what route would be followed by the +armored truck, or whatever vehicle? + +Captain JONES. I had not been told that. I had heard some discussion. +We have a large map of downtown, city of Dallas, that sits inside of +the chief's office where the secretaries sit outside there, and one of +the chiefs, I don't recall which one it was, was over there talking to +someone else about a proposed route. I don't know what it was. I was +not told. + +Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that? + +Captain JONES. Oh, just prior to my going to the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, just prior to 11 o'clock? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. They were discussing what route to take? + +Captain JONES. Discussing route, and I don't know what arrangements was +made. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back into the basement where you left off at the +end of the last sequence of questions. What time, roughly, would it +have been when you had completed the duty of informing the police who +were at the top of the Commerce Street entrance, and after you had +informed Captain Talbert, and after you had gotten these three men---- + +Captain JONES. To the jail office there? + +Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, about? + +Captain JONES. Well, it would take a minimum, I would say, of 5 +minutes, to come up that. It would vary a little, and possibly more, +depending on how fast the elevators came up and so forth. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next then? + +Captain JONES. Next thing I did--it was brought to my attention--we +don't have a chart here so I will have---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Here; I am going to mark it, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, +1963. Exhibit 5057, deposition of Capt. O. A. Jones." I am signing my +name below it and I would like you to sign your name, here. + +Captain JONES. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then will you use the exhibit as you see fit. Let me +say to you that if you do refer to the exhibit please indicate in words +where it is rather than pointing to it because it will not make sense +later on. + +Captain JONES. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were saying about the basement---- + +Captain JONES. When I got off the elevator, came out and left the +elevator--all right, now, someone brought it to my attention that +photographers and news media were in this part of the jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. In the jail? + +Captain JONES. Jail office, outside. + +Mr. HUBERT. Outside of the desks? + +Captain JONES. Outside the booking area, outside of the desk part of +the jail office, and newsmen all out in here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are pointing to the jail area? + +Captain JONES. The corridor they have from the driveway from the +basement jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. On the east side of the swinging doors? + +Captain JONES. On the east side of the swinging doors; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did you do? + +Captain JONES. I did not know the instructions given to the other +officers down there prior to that. Nothing. So, immediately after +seeing them--I saw Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson come out the +swinging doors into the area, and Batchelor, being the highest ranking +officer present, I pointed these people out to him, and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, in the jail office? + +Captain JONES. In the jail office--were they supposed to be in there, +and wouldn't it be better, if we could get those people out of the jail +office, that it would be easier to watch the prisoner, and so, I don't +know the exact words, I used, and they walked around and looked around, +and then agreed that it would be. So, he and I, and at least one other +officer, and I don't know who he was, but at least one more removed +everyone out of the outer part of the jail office to just outside the +swinging doors coming from the basement of the city hall going east. + +Mr. HUBERT. In the direction---- + +Captain JONES. In the direction of the driveway, and after getting +them out there, not knowing the specific instructions that might have +been given I said, "Chief Batchelor, would it be possible to have all +this media be placed north of a line from the east corner of the jail +office--all right. To move all the news media north of a line formed +from the corner of the jail office from the corridor to across the ramp +leading down from Main Street, to have all reporters north of that +line, and that east of a line running off from this point across the +driveway going south down to the exit from the basement parking area." + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, I am going to mark, as you have indicated on +the map, by making a line starting--with the letter "A" on the corner +formed by the intersection of the jail corridor and the basement ramp +moving east to a point, "B", which I am marking---- + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which is the east side of the ramp, and to another point +marked "C". + +Captain JONES. Well, now, actually, that line would extend all the way +up here at that time. I meant to keep them back on those two--and in +order---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in what your suggestion was that the news +media should be kept north of the line marked A and B? + +Captain JONES. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And east of the line which runs "B to C," the point "C"? + +Captain JONES. I didn't spell it out in those details, but that is the +general idea, yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. "B" being the top of the Commerce Street ramp? + +Captain JONES. For this reason, that we would have only two sides to +watch. The rest of it would be more or less brick wall, and he agreed +to that. The officers were stationed previously by other people along +these lines, so, I went out there with some of these officers and I +don't know how many, and we did get those people back. + +Mr. HUBERT. You got them back? + +Captain JONES. We got them back fairly well at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Behind the lines? + +Captain JONES. Behind these lines. In fact, there at one time it was +completely clear. + +Mr. HUBERT. That would have been how long before Oswald came down? + +Captain JONES. There again, I couldn't say. It was a matter of a few +minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how many people were in the area that I am +marking with a pen, "Area A"? + +Captain JONES. I cannot tell you. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which is to say, the area north of the line "A", which you +recently drew? + +Captain JONES. Mr. Hubert, that would be truly a guess on my part +along with knowledge obtained later and watching these TV films. +Unconsciously, I would have to use that, for I don't have any idea on +it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder across the ramp? + +Captain JONES. It wasn't when we first pushed them back there, it +was possibly six or eight people, and possibly a few more than that +including officers. I didn't stop to--told the officers, "Get them +back," "get them back." + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am talking about an area called "B", can you give me +any comment as to how many people roughly were in there? + +Captain JONES. I couldn't guess. A few minutes later I can tell you +there was quite a few people there, but---- + +Mr. HUBERT. We'll get to there. Suppose we get to that. Now then, at +the time Oswald was brought down, can you tell me how many people, +roughly, were in Area "A" and Area "B"? + +Captain JONES. No, sir; I find myself with figures there that--that I +do not know whether they are right or not. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Captain JONES. What I would want to say, that I did see several people, +and I was up there personally, and I don't know exactly who they were, +but I was attempting to push them back at that time. So, we can get to +that any minute, but as far as giving you a figure or definite number +or something, I couldn't do it with any degree of accuracy. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Do you know of your own knowledge what +procedures were being used for checking people in that whole downstairs +or basement area, including the ramp and so forth? + +Captain JONES. I know only one instance of--somewhere on the way down +there that morning, whether it was up on the third floor or whether--I +believe it was off of the elevator, just coming off of the elevator I +was asked for an identification. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were in civilian clothes? + +Captain JONES. I was in civilian clothes, yes, sir. I was asked, and +that is the only time. I did not give the instruction. These officers +were placed there prior to that, on the outside lines, and I don't know +of my own knowledge. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, proceed with the chronological sequence. + +Captain JONES. The chronological sequence, after getting these people +out of the jail office and out of the corridors and driveway to these +two points of which we were speaking, then I was somewhere just +south of this point marked "B" on the driveway when Chief Stevenson +approached me and said, "There has been a change in plan. We are going +to put two cars on the driveway and use them." Now, sometime in between +there, and I can't tell you the exact time I am aware of a blur of a +car going out the wrong way. I didn't see who was in it, and I didn't +take too much awareness of it. I don't know just when it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "going the wrong way----" + +Captain JONES. I mean it came out of the basement area and headed up +toward Main Street which ordinarily is the down ramp and you go out the +ramp going up Commerce Street. There was a car out there, and in light +of the investigation I know the circumstances now, but at that time +I couldn't tell you about that one which did go out. Chief Stevenson +said--came to me just before or after the car pulled out and said--said +there was a change in plans, "We are going to put two cars in the +driveway and transfer him in a car." Almost immediately some cars +started up back in this area [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "this area," that is the basement? + +Captain JONES. All right, the parking area of the basement, east of +the driveway, and I am very sure one car that I saw pull up and go +up the Commerce Street ramp from a ways, and I think I am aware of a +second car pulling up behind. Now, the second car was having a little +difficulty backing down into position to where it would--where it +should go, so that when I stepped forward and became aware of quite a +mass of people, I couldn't tell you how many in this area "B". + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing in the west side of the area? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; the west side of area B, but the east side of +the ramp. I was somewhere in there, and I attempted to push the people +back, and I'm afraid I may have delayed the driver by pushing these +people back, but along about that time someone shouts, "Here he comes." + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you just make a little circle as to where +approximately you were? + +Captain JONES. I think--I think--I think I was somewhere right in this +area here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle. + +Captain JONES. Well, I don't know. That is as close as I can put it. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have drawn a circle, and I'm just going to put here, as +you said, that it was somewhere around in here, around in the circle +that you have drawn and I am marking that "approximate position of +Capt. O. A. Jones at the time that Jones heard someone say 'Here he +comes,'" is that correct, sir? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, actually, there was an automobile, as you say, backing +up towards east, right? + +Captain JONES. Well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. But when they begin---- + +Captain JONES. It would have been backing north attempting to back +north. + +Mr. HUBERT. Backing north, but with the front of the car facing south? + +Captain JONES. Now then; from here is something that was a mystery to +me for 2 weeks---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't answer the question. + +Captain JONES. That's true. In the basement area, onto the ramp, +heading out towards Commerce, and attempting to back toward north. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you say there was something else? + +Captain JONES. The police vehicle--car is ahead of me a little bit. + +Mr. HUBERT. It is what? + +Captain JONES. Ahead of me, backing toward it, and I am probably in the +way, and when they shout, "Here he comes," and the line up ahead of +me--up toward the Commerce Street ramp, and I know of some officers, +Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor, uniformed men up at the ramp, but +I'm not sure about Captain Talbert. I'm sure, I believe he is ahead +of me. Quite a few officers, however, someone yells, "Here he comes," +there is a big furor, so then as I turned and looked back into this +area "B", there are some people in there which--hands out, looking +them, completely. I am looking east. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are looking away from the---- + +Captain JONES. From the approximate point. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you are also looking away from the point which Oswald +exited? + +Captain JONES. That's right. In watching the people, I was aware, in +fact, in trying to get them out of the way. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would it be correct to say that the televisions were to +your left? + +Captain JONES. I think so. I mean, that is my impression, and I +cannot--I couldn't swear. I can give you the impression to the best of +my knowledge, but here is one thing that I know. I am in that area, I +think the television is to my left. I turned to make sure the people +stay out of way. Some of the previous instructions--can I go back? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Captain JONES. Some of the previous instructions that I had given to +this officer here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Here? + +Captain JONES. I'm sorry, just outside of the swinging doors leading +into the basement of the city hall and just after clearing the jail +office of the reporters, just keep the people out of the area. I told +both the officers and the newsmen there, "When the prisoner comes down, +you will not be allowed in this area. You will not be allowed to step +forward to take pictures, or converse with the prisoner." + +Mr. HUBERT. You gave that instruction? + +Captain JONES. I gave this instruction to them. I can't say to this +officer, or to that officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Captain JONES. Things had changed. First, I was under the impression +that the armored car would back all the way down. I didn't know whether +it could get all the way down, may do it at some intermediate point. If +it comes all the way down there would be a line. That was the--that was +where I wanted the officer here coming out of the jail office. The door +of the vehicle that opens---- + +Mr. HUBERT. I say, that was your idea? + +Captain JONES. It was my idea, if the transporting vehicle backs all +the way to the jail door. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Captain JONES. If it comes partially down here and has to stop, which +would be somewhere around this area here [indicating], the--just +past--just at the point where the ramp starts to rise there is a beam, +I believe, or low point in the ceiling there, that if it cannot get +to that point these officers in the line here can form an =L=-shaped +line around the prisoner, between them and the two sides where the +news media had been told to stay and form a buffer in between to walk +up there. Then the change--going to put two cars up there. There is no +reason why that back car can't get all the way back to the jail office. +The original plan would be that the line of officers would be from the +jail door to the vehicle. Then they say, "Here he comes," and I am off +up here, to the point that I indicated on the map. It is too late to +get the people out of the way of the car and form the line. I am aware +that Oswald is already coming because of the furor, so, I was trying to +keep everybody out of the way and keep the way clear and I heard a shot. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Captain JONES. And I place that as to why it is my last awareness +of--the back car is ahead of, towards Commerce Street. The prisoner +is coming from back here [indicating]. The car is backing like this +[indicating]. I am looking at---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You were looking at the automobile? + +Captain JONES. At the automobile. They say, "Here he comes." I turned +and these people back this way---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Looking away from the direction? + +Captain JONES. Into this basement parking area. I heard a shot, and I +distinctly remember looking over my left shoulder and behind me to the +scene of the scuffle. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you see? + +Captain JONES. Just mass confusion of people. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; let me ask you this; had you at any time seen +Ruby in the basement? + +Captain JONES. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the time of the shooting, did you see him? + +Captain JONES. Not at the moment of the shooting. I was looking out +into the basement area, parking area. + +Mr. HUBERT. After the shooting, did you see him? + +Captain JONES. I did; after he was in custody and on his feet and just +prior to them taking him into the jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him then? + +Captain JONES. At that time, after having someone say it was Jack Ruby, +then I did recognize him as Jack Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything? + +Captain JONES. No, sir; in fact, I wasn't that close to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything more to do with Ruby? Did you see him +after that? + +Captain JONES. Can I continue on the chronological thing there? I don't +believe I did see him---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. + +Captain JONES. It will be just about that same thing that after I +turned and looking back, and also someone running out to the street, +out at the extreme edges of the crowd and all, and that is when I +hollered, "Block the exits." Or "bar the exits," or "don't let anybody +out." Or--I couldn't tell you the words I used. I shouted over my +shoulder and took a few running steps and shouting to the officers, for +some of them was running down towards the scene that I yelled, "Block +the exits, don't let anybody out." The two or three officers stopped. +I couldn't tell you who they are, and then I turned and went back down +to the scene or near the scene of the shooting, somebody says, it was +Jack Ruby. In fact, it was said more than once. I heard the words--and +they got the man standing up. I can see his head and I do recognize in +my mind that it is Jack Ruby, but--about to get him in the jail office, +shouted to that officer that way, whether he heard me or not, I don't +know, but this man here Lieutenant Swain [indicating] was having a lot +of difficulty. He was standing between point "B" on the driveway and +this circle, approximately. Standing near the television cameras, and +having difficulty keeping the television men from getting down in the +driveway. So I stopped there and I assisted him in keeping those people +back for a few minutes until we can get it cleared up. We get that more +or less under control. The people are not trying to force their way in +there, and I go into the jail office and see Oswald lying on the floor +with a bullet hole in the left side, upper rib cage, it appears to me. +His shirt has been pulled up. Whether, at that time Ruby was still in +the jail office or had started upstairs, he--it seems to me possibly he +was getting on the elevator, but I can't say for sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to Ruby at that time? + +Captain JONES. I did not speak to Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him? + +Captain JONES. There--if that was him getting on the elevator, or if he +was in there. After that, no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the clearing of the +basement area at an earlier time? + +Captain JONES. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever told as to what the original route would be +from the police department to the county jail? + +Captain JONES. I was never told by some officer coming to me and +saying, this is the route. As I said, I heard some of the higher +ranking officers talking of a possible route, but I was on a +long-distance phone call at a desk nearby. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you can say to me now that you really did not know the +planned route? + +Captain JONES. I was not told, and I do not know for sure what route +they were going to take. I was aware of talk and some routing being +planned. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when you first heard that Ruby was supposed +to have come down the Main Street ramp? + +Captain JONES. I don't remember; I don't understand that question, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way; you have heard since that Ruby +claims that he came down the Main Street ramp? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first heard that? + +Captain JONES. When I first heard that it was probably as a result of +me being in charge for the Police Department Committee investigating +the operational security about that transfer, and why it broke down, +and that heading that committee, I am sure that was passed to me by +some of the officers who had talked to him following his arrest. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, later, on the date of the 24th, or could it +have been later than that? + +Captain JONES. If I heard it prior to that, or heard rumors, the first +official knowledge that I do have would have been even following +Thanksgiving Day, for that is the time I was called back from the +vacation and called from vacation to head that investigation, and it +was subsequent to that that we had our investigation. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that if you heard anything about Ruby's version of +how he got there, it would have been just passed on to you prior to +going on your vacation? That is to say, you would have heard it from +someone---- + +Captain JONES. I would have heard it--or put out on the radio or +newspapers or some source like that. I could have read that. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you go on vacation? + +Captain JONES. I left here---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That is Dallas? + +Captain JONES. I left Dallas about 7:30 on Thanksgiving morning and got +back in town at 8 o'clock that night. Drove to Shreveport, spent 4 or 5 +hours with my father and ate lunch and came back. They called for me by +the time I got there. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were not on the special committee to investigate +security until that time? + +Captain JONES. When I returned, went to Chief Stevenson's house that +night. He told me what they had in mind. I reported for that the +morning following Thanksgiving, Friday morning. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain, is there anything else you want to state +concerning the facts, in your deposition this morning? + +Captain JONES. I can think of no other at this time, Mr. Hubert. I only +wish there was some definite facts I could give you, and wish I could +have been more definite in my answers, but I can think of no other +right now. We have covered the situation pretty thoroughly. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of the +Commission, other than myself? + +Captain JONES. No, sir; I'm sure I haven't. I mean I would remember +that. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean, you have been interviewed by me prior to the +commencement of this deposition, isn't that correct? + +Captain JONES. We went over the details briefly a while ago; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that was this morning? + +Captain JONES. That was this morning; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell me whether you observed any +inconsistencies between the interview that you had with me this morning +and your testimony in this deposition? + +Captain JONES. I am not aware of any, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you provided any material information in that +interview with me this morning which has not been talked about in the +record of this deposition today? + +Captain JONES. I don't know of any, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all, sir. Captain, if you have anything +else to say---- + +Captain JONES. I will be happy--if there is anything that I can say +that will shed some light on the truth, that's what I want, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything at all that you haven't said to me, or +during the interview, or during any statements that you may have made +to anybody which you would like to say now? + +Captain JONES. I can think of none--I got--I told you the facts as I +know them. The book that the Commission has, has a copy of--has the +conclusions that were reached by our Committee, and those are just +opinions based on our investigation of it and certainly we do have +opinion on it but I have tried to stay away from my opinion, and--I +will answer any questions in the future that you or any member of your +Commission wants to know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. Let me say that if you should think of +anything that has been omitted please feel free to call upon me or any +member of the Commission staff to convey that information. + +Once again I thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission. + +Captain JONES. Thank you. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just a moment. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that I am recommencing this deposition about a +minute after it finished. You are still under the same oath, of course, +that you were before. + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that you did prepare, or it was prepared under +your supervision, a chart, or diagram that showed the basement area, +and by the use of circles and identifying code showed the positions of +individuals. + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; that was prepared under my direction by an +officer and places people who were not available to our office in this +city, where they were placed by the statements, or statements of people +who were nearby and said they were there. That was to the best of our +ability to determine where they were at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I recall it, that was quite a large chart, wasn't it? + +Captain JONES. The original that they made. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it showed the positions of people like that by circles +in which numbers were---- + +Captain JONES. Were numbered. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I think you used a color as well? + +Captain JONES. Color to denote the occupation. + +Mr. HUBERT. Whether reserve officers---- + +Captain JONES. Designated from---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Newspapermen. + +Captain JONES. And those numbers applied to one other, then they +applied to the number of the page in the book of the ones they took +affidavits from. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that these circles with the number in it +designating the position of a particular individual, that same number +was used to identify his report? + +Captain JONES. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. In your security report? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. But note for the record: The report which Captain Jones is +referring has been designated as Commission Report No. 81-A. This is a +copy of that, isn't it? + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir. That is it. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. So, that the chart really is an estimation based +upon the persons involved, what they said themselves, and also as to +what other people said as to where they were. + +Captain JONES. Yes, sir; we were limited as to the miles and distances +of contacting some of the witnesses. + +Mr. HUBERT. Once again I thank you for appearing. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LT. JACK REVILL + +The testimony of Lt. Jack Revill was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 31, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Jack Revill [spelling] +R-e-v-i-l-l-e. + +Lieutenant REVILL. No. No "e." + +Mr. HUBERT. No "e"? But two "l's." + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory +staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the +provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint +resolution of Congress No. 137, in the rules and procedures adopted +by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint +resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death +of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Lieutenant Revill, the +nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about +the death of Oswald and any other facts you may know about the general +inquiry. + +Now, Lieutenant Revill, you have appeared here today by virtue of +a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is +the general counsel of the Commission. And under the rules of the +Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the +taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may +waive that 3-day written notice. Do you wish to do so? Do you wish to +waive the 3-day---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. I will waive it, yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, let's swear you. + +If you will stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to +tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. State your name, please. + +Lieutenant REVILL. My name is Jack Revill. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Lieutenant REVILL. My age is 34 years of age. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? + +Lieutenant REVILL. My residence is Dallas, Tex., 5617 Meadowick Lane. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I'm employed by the Dallas Police Department, +lieutenant of the police. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I have been employed by this police department for a +period of 13 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did you start? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I was employed and assigned a patrolman. From there +I was promoted to my present rank of lieutenant. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive your present rank? + +Lieutenant REVILL. June 26, 1958. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, what are your specific functions or duties or +assignments within the department? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I am presently assigned as section supervisor of +criminal intelligence, which is a part of the Special Service Bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that section? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Since February of 1959. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior there? + +Lieutenant REVILL. My immediate supervisor is Capt. W. P. Gannaway. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then over him? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Chief Curry. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don't work for any other captain or +supervisor? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. You report to the Chief himself, I mean, you don't go +through Stevenson or Batchelor? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Just directly to the Chief. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to state briefly, so that we get +the full story, just what function you have had with respect to the +investigation of the shooting of Oswald. First let me ask you: Were you +present when Oswald was shot? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I was not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the transfer of Oswald? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty that day? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; later I was, but not the morning of the +shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Not at the time of the shooting? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, go ahead and tell us about just what you did +with reference to the investigation of this. + +Lieutenant REVILL. After Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald I was +assigned to an investigative committee to determine how and why Jack +Ruby gained access to the basement of the city hall. This committee was +comprised of myself, Lt. F. I. Cornwall, Lt. P. G. McCaghren, Lt. C. C. +Wallace, Capt. O. A. Jones and Inspector Sawyer, and I do not recall +his initials, but our function was to interview the people present in +the basement on the morning of the shooting, and any other leads that +might be developed from these interviews. We were to follow up on these. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did the official committee you have just mentioned +come into existence and who put it in existence and who gave you your +orders? + +Lieutenant REVILL. This committee was formed--created at the orders of +Chief J. E. Curry. The exact date I do not recall. It was in December. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go ahead. + +Lieutenant REVILL. As previously stated, our function was to interview +these people. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had any other interviews of these people been made prior to +the commencement of the functions of your committee? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Interviews, as such, no. Most of the officers had +submitted written reports as to their specific duties on the morning of +November 24, 1963. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when that was done? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I presume that it was done on the date of the +shooting and immediately thereafter. + +Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact, as I recall it, that the individual +reports made by every officer who was in the basement more or less +followed a form in the sense that they were submitted a list of +questions, at least they had to answer that much, and they could, +perhaps, go further if they wanted to? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I believe the form letter you make reference to +was given to the police reserve officers. These are the people that I +devoted my efforts toward, the police reserve, but Lieutenant Cornwall +and I, our duty was to interview these reserve policemen. + +Lieutenant McCaghren, O. A. Jones and Wallace interviewed the sworn +officers. + +Mr. HUBERT. By the way, where is Cornwall now? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He is in Louisville, Ky., at the Southern Police +Institute. He left a week ago. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I understand that he is going to be there---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. 3 months. + +Mr. HUBERT. 3 months? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Now, Lieutenant Cornwall and I were together +throughout the existence of this committee. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the document entitled, "Investigation +of the Operation and Security Involved on the Transfer of Lee Harvey +Oswald, on November 24, 1963," which I now show you? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that I am showing Lieutenant Revill, a +document which has been identified as Commission's Report 81-A. Are you +familiar with the letter of transmittal of this report dated December +16th, 1963, which is at the first part of the report, and runs for 11 +pages, signed by Sawyer, Westbrook, and Jones? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. HUBERT. I believe that this report, in its very last paragraph, +says that you have read it and concur? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Some of the reports in there are actually signed by you? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an officer, a reserve officer by the name of +Mayo? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Mayo? + +Mr. HUBERT. Lamar Mayo. I think his civilian employment is in--he is an +accountant or chief of credit department of Sears, Roebuck here. + +Lieutenant REVILL. This is R. L. Mayo? + +Mr. HUBERT. It could be R. L. Mayo. + +Lieutenant REVILL. I looked here and I found a copy of an interview of +a reserve officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, signed by myself and Lieutenant +Cornwall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Lamar W.? + +Lieutenant REVILL. We do have an L. W. Mayo. It is possible that we +made an error on this up here, the girl---- + +Mr. HUBERT. It is L. W. Mayo, I think. + +Lieutenant REVILL. It will be the same. I was looking at his report, +and what we had put in our report about his position or duty assignment +and what happened here, they---- + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are talking about---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. In the report. It is page 70. + +Mr. HUBERT. Page 70 of Commission's Document 81-A. + +Lieutenant REVILL. What happened, the secretary in typing the report +put the wrong initial. She placed R. L. Mayo, and it should read L. W. +Mayo. + +Mr. HUBERT. I noticed that you are talking about the part of the letter +which starts off "Re: interview of Reserve Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo, +826," that being a heading on the letter of December 3, 1963, but the +next document also numbered page 70, in Commission's Document 81-A, +shows that the initial report dated November 26, addressed to Chief +Curry is signed, "L. W. Mayo," and it is your thought--that it is an +error in the first document which is entitled, "Interview of Reserve +Officer, Sgt. R. L. Mayo," and it should have been, "L. W. Mayo.?" + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion that that is the same person? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; this is my opinion. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand that Sergeant Mayo, when he was interviewed +by you stated that he had been approached by some individual who was +either a minister or posing to be a minister in any case, who was +trying to get into the jail through the Commerce Street entrance on +November 24, prior to the shooting, stating that he wanted to see +Oswald, and that you had told him, well, that wasn't pertinent to your +inquiry, and all I want to do is ask you what--if it is true, and just +what comment do you have to make on it? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I don't recall making that, because it would have +been pertinent to my inquiry, because in the reports I make reference +to an individual who was on the street trying to get in who was wearing +a Whitehouse--a streamer with the words, "Whitehouse Press." This, to +me, was pertinent, and this minister--of course, the minister wanted to +see Oswald prior to the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. In other words, your statement is that you do not +recollect that Mayo made such a statement to you? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he might have made such a statement, but---- + +Mr. HUBERT. If he did, your thought would be you would have put it in? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; because to me it would have been +pertinent. Anything. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his statement to you, Mayo to you, that after +the shooting when Mayo was stationed in the Main Street ramp that +there was a man who came to Mayo, I think, identified himself as Ruby's +roommate, and was trying to get in to see Ruby, that being after the +shooting. Do you recall that Mayo reported that during the course of +the interview? + +Lieutenant REVILL. It seems like I do recall Mayo saying something like +that, and I believe he referred this man to Lieutenant Gilmore of the +Special Service Bureau. I believe he told me that, but I don't see it +here and I don't know why we omitted that, but I think we--I do recall +him making such a statement. George Senator, I believe he would have +been the individual. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. He described him as having a slight limp, too, I think +he said. + +Lieutenant REVILL. This, I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, you do not recall right now why it was not made a part +of the interview? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Just an oversight on my part. It should have been +listed here. + +Mr. HUBERT. There is one other thing that Mayo states that he told you, +which apparently is not in the report, that is about a man and a woman +who had been hanging around the Main Street entrance apparently after +the shooting. Apparently they were tourists from Springfield, Ill., and +they wanted to take some pictures and stated that to you that---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not state this to me. + +Mr. HUBERT. As to that episode, then, you do not recall that that was +stated to you? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I would say that he did not relate this to me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I see the three episodes then, as to the first one +regarding the minister, your thought is that he may have stated to you, +but you do not remember? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I don't recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you recall why he omitted it from your report? + +Lieutenant REVILL. This might have happened. It was subsequent to this +I found a preacher who wanted to talk to Oswald, and he went to Chief +Batchelor's office, and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. When subsequent to what? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Subsequent to the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, prior to the shooting, and subsequently--he was +probably talking to--let's see, he arrived at city hall at 9:30. This +preacher's name is Ray Rushing. He is an evangelist, Radio Evangelist. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that was reported and the man was interviewed? + +Lieutenant REVILL. It was not reported because I myself found this man. + +Mr. HUBERT. But---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. There is no report on it, because it is in--it +had nothing to do with the shooting. He had gone to Sheriff Decker's +office, and Decker referred him to the city thinking that Oswald had +not been transferred, so, he came to the city hall and went to the +third floor, and--by the way, he rode up on the elevator with Jack +Ruby, now---- + +Mr. HUBERT. This Rushing? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Rode to the third floor---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. Now, he says this. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, he says this. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, for the past 7 weeks I have been assigned to +the district attorney's office, the prosecution of Ruby, running down +leads and interviewing witnesses and this preacher was one of the +people that we located, and he related this story to me, that he rode +up on the elevator with Jack Ruby on the morning of November 24. Mr. +Wade did not use this man. He didn't need the testimony, because he had +placed Ruby there the morning of the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Rushing says that he rode up with Ruby on +the morning of the 24th, prior to the shooting? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was his name? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Ray Rushing. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't know how we could reach him? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No; he lives in Richardson, Tex.--correction, +please--Plano, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that? + +Lieutenant REVILL. P-l-a-n-o, north of Richardson, and at this time he +does not have a phone. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you make a report on the interview with him? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I did not. This was an interview conducted +by the--at the district attorney's office in the presence of Assistant +District Attorney Alexander. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Rushing say what time that was? + +Lieutenant REVILL. 9:30. He was sure of the time, because he had let +his wife and family out at the First Baptist Church, and traveled +directly to the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he sure it was Sunday the 24th? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he had gone there to speak to Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did he recognize Ruby? Did he say? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He said he recognized him from the newspaper article +that appeared that day, and later days. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he had any conversation with him? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He talked about the weather. I asked him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he was--whether he saw Ruby there +afterwards? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He said he turned to the right and--went up to +the third floor and after arriving on the third floor, he turned to +the right and went to the administrative office and talked to Chief +Assistant Batchelor. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, anyhow, after you interviewed this man Rushing, you +turned over the information concerning your interview to Assistant +District Attorney Alexander? + +Lieutenant REVILL. What I did is, I interviewed Mr. Rushing one night +and asked him if he could come to the district attorney's office and +relate this to Mr. Wade. Possibility that the district attorney might +use him as a witness, and Alexander was of the opinion that the man +might be mistaken. That he saw this as a means of getting publicity. Of +course, I disagree with that thinking. I think that the man is truthful +in that he is reporting what he thinks he saw. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you interviewed him did he give you what you +considered a fairly accurate description of Ruby? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. Of course, so many photographs had appeared in +the newspapers and it would be easy for someone to---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Where did you interview him? + +Lieutenant REVILL. At the district attorney's office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you a specific address in Plano? + +Lieutenant REVILL. It is out in the country. It is a box number. I +can't---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What is he? A Baptist minister? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He is, yes; I guess he would be. He attends the +First Baptist Church. He is one of these Evangelist--that his calling +is to dry up the liquor industry, throughout the nation, so they tell +me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he state to you what his purpose was in seeing Oswald? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, he felt that Oswald needed spiritual guidance +at that time. He was in trouble and he felt like he could possibly help +him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he got to see Oswald? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He did not get to see him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how he got into this building? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He walked into the building. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any difficulty getting in? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Not at that time, no. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether he was stopped and asked for +identification by anyone? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I don't believe he was. At that time, of +course, I don't know for sure--I don't know that they were--had the +building secured. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the second thing that Mayo told you. To wit, +about Ruby's roommate who may or may not be Senator, you do recall that +he said that, but you don't know why it was left out of the---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. It was an oversight. It seems as though I do recall +him telling me something about that, and that he referred this man to +Lieutenant Gilmore, who was assigned to the special service section. + +Mr. HUBERT. The third thing, that man and wife from Springfield, Ill., +you have no recollection of that? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no recollection whatsoever. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall interviewing Pat Dean? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Sergeant Dean? No, sir; I did not interview Sergeant +Dean. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or Archer? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; these interviews were conducted by +Lieutenant McCaghren and Wallace. Now, Dean, being a uniformed officer, +he might have been interviewed by Captain Westbrook. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your function was to find out how Ruby got into the---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. Basement. This basement; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn of Ruby's version that he came in +the Main Street entrance? + +Lieutenant REVILL. When I first learned it? I read it in the newspaper. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it on the 24th? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, actually, you hadn't been assigned the job---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no, sir. What happened, my people were--the +people, the detectives assigned to my unit and myself were assigned +to the Trade Mart, where Mr. Kennedy was to speak. Upon hearing of +the shooting, three of us, or four of us, went to the Texas School +Book Depository and started a systematical search and there were many, +many officers present at that time. I made a report to Chief Lumpkin +naming all of the officers that I could recall being there. This was +on a Friday. The following Saturday, the next day, we were to locate +witnesses. People who were employed at the School Book Depository, +get them and bring them to Captain Fritz' office. This took all day. +Saturday night we terminated and went home approximately 8 o'clock. The +next morning none of us were assigned to duty. Now, by that I mean the +intelligence unit. I was at home and I saw the shooting on television +and from there I got a phone call to report to Mayor Cabell's home, +because there had been a threat on his life. I went to Washington with +Mr. Cabell that night and got back the next day. + +Mr. HUBERT. You haven't, then, spoken to Dean at all about how Ruby got +into the basement or how Ruby, says he got into the basement? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I am sure I have discussed it with him, but as far +as a formal interview; no. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, your first knowledge didn't come from any +particular individual, but from the newspaper? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Newspaper. + +Mr. HUBERT. In your discussion with Dean, do you recall whether he +stated to you how he found out about Ruby's alleged entry through the +Main Street ramp? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the reserve officer by the name of Holly? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Holly? Yes, sir; I talked to Mr. Holly. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the conversation? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about it, please? + +Lieutenant REVILL. If I may find the report. + +Mr. HUBERT. There is an index there. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; and they are filed alphabetically. Ordinarily I +can find it probably easier this way. Holly, yes, Holly was interviewed +and he stated that he had been assigned to a traffic corner and after +the shooting occurred he was reassigned to Parkland Hospital, and +that while there some unknown police reservist told him that he had +observed, or admitted Ruby into the basement of the city hall, and that +Ruby had presented press credentials. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. Well, what we did, we have photographs of all of +the police reserve, and Holly could not identify anyone as being this +officer, or reserve officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where did this take place, that is to say, where was Holly +shown these pictures? + +Lieutenant REVILL. In the city hall, in the special services bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that when Holly was interviewed he was +interviewed by Captain Solomon? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Well, Holly was interviewed by Captain Solomon, and +both Lieutenant Cornwall and I. + +Mr. HUBERT. All at once? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No; see what happened, Holly came to us with his +story. Well, we jumped on it because there might be something to it, +so I called Captain Solomon, who has access to all of the records +and photographs of the reserve officers, and he brought them to the +special services bureau in the city hall. Holly was unable to identify +this officer. We talked to Captain Arnett, who is a reserve captain, +and both Solomon and Arnett were of the opinion that Holly might be +fabricating this thing. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now; what did Holly say---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. Holly---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That this reserve officer told him? + +Lieutenant REVILL. That he had seen Ruby in the basement of the city +hall, and that Ruby had presented press credentials to someone in the +basement of the city hall. We were never able to locate this reserve +officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Holly tell you that a reserve officer, possibly the +same one, possibly another, had told him that he had seen Ruby coming +down the ramp, Main Street ramp, and just about a minute before the +shooting? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; Holly did not say that to me. I found a +reserve officer who was present in the basement of the city hall who +saw some individual coming down the ramp, the Main Street ramp. + +He could not identify this person as being Ruby. As you said, +approximately a minute or minute and a half after the shooting--I mean, +prior to the shooting. Have you got a---- + +Mr. HUBERT. I don't want to suggest anything to you, but to assist you, +tell me if you don't recognize the name, Officer Newman? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I believe that it is Newman. I can show you. You--he +was assigned---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you interview Newman? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Newman said that he had not recognized Jack Ruby? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; he did not recognize the man coming down the +ramp, and the distance involved, I can readily see why he could not +identify him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Newman mention to you in your interview that as a +matter of fact, there were two people he saw in the basement area. One, +a man coming down the ramp about a minute before the shooting, and +another person who jumped the rail down there from the parking area +into the ramp on the Main Street side, but that he could not identify +either? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that, as to the man jumping the rail he didn't know +whether it was before the shooting or after. + +Lieutenant REVILL. The man that he is making reference to jumping over +the rail was an electrician, and this was prior to the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was this Chabot? [Spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Tommy Chabot, I believe he is a mechanic. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he, Newman, identify him as such? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Newman did not identify him as such, nor did he +identify the man running down the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I can understand then that when he saw the man +running down the ramp he did not know who that was, but did he tell +you later he identified that man as being Ruby by comparing him to the +pictures? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Holly was asked to pick out the reserve officer +who had told him what you said he did in the hospital, was Captain +Solomon present? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; Solomon was present and had brought these +photographs to special services bureau, and he was unable to identify +any of these people. + +Mr. HUBERT. He didn't pick out any picture at all? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You know, of your own knowledge, whether or not Solomon had +another interview with this man? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard that Holly actually did pick out a +picture in an interview with Solomon and state that he thought that was +the reserve officer who had spoken to him. Now, apparently that didn't +happen when you were present? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I don't recall this happening in my +presence. I do recall, I believe, Holly thinking that a specific +officer was the individual that--we interviewed this officer and he was +not the one, and I couldn't tell you his name, because we talked to so +many of them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then Holly did say that he thought that this might be the +individual, and he picked out then a particular picture? + +Lieutenant REVILL. As I recall, he picked out a picture, and as it +turned out, the man that he picked out wasn't even present at the +basement of the city hall. He had been fishing, was on a fishing +trip, and I talked to this reserve officer, I couldn't tell you his +name. There were two of them that came from Arlington directly to the +hospital. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, it wasn't Newman? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he was not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Newman is a reserve officer? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, the picture Holly picked out as being possibly the +man who told him about seeing someone coming through with a pass or +something like that sort was not Newman? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. That reserve officer was interviewed? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he was interviewed and the report is in +here, if I could find it. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your recollection of the interview was that he wasn't +even in the place at all? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He had been fishing. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection at all of Holly picking out +Newman's picture? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he did not pick out Newman's picture. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, in your---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. In my presence. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nor, have you heard that he picked out Newman's picture +when you were not there? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I have not heard this. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think the report indicates that you interviewed Ruby? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; on two occasions. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was the first one? + +Lieutenant REVILL. The first occasion, the date would have been on the +Sunday following the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. When? One week later? + +Lieutenant REVILL. One week later, yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I can show you a calendar of---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. I can give you the date. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you do so? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Would have been on December the 1st in the county +jail. Present at that interview was Lieutenant Cornwall, a jailer, +whose name I do not recall. This man was present at both interviews, at +Mr. Decker's request. + +Mr. HUBERT. The jailer was? + +Lieutenant REVILL. The jailer; yes, sir. And this proposed interview +took place just outside the cell where Ruby was confined in, I believe +it would be the chief jailer's office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about what happened? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; Lieutenant Cornwall and I, after +interviewing all these people, trying to determine how Ruby got into +the basement, decided that the best thing was to talk to Ruby himself, +so, we finally got clearance to go talk to him and we did, and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, by that time you had already heard from the press that +he had said that he had come through the Main Street ramp? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Something to the effect that, "You may not believe +me, but I walked down the ramp." Anyway at the interview, Ruby was +there with Cornwall and I, and this unknown jailer, and he refused +to disclose how he gained access into the basement stating that this +is a part of his defense, so, we then had Sheriff Decker call Tom +Howard, who was representing Ruby at that time as a legal counsel. +Mr. Howard came to the jail and was present throughout the interview. +Ruby was very precise as to his activities on Friday, the date of the +shooting of President Kennedy. He refused to discuss with us any of +his activities on Saturday, November 23 or November 24, the day of the +shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any reason? + +Lieutenant REVILL. This was part of his defense, so he stated. The +interview approximately took 45 minutes. It was a lot of---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him specifically whether the story in the +press, that he had come through the Main Street entrance, was correct +or not correct? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I asked him this, and he refused to +discuss it. He said that he did not want to get anyone in trouble. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you pursue that? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. I was assigned to this committee to find +out what happened and I really wasn't concerned who we got in trouble, +because if someone was wrong, then they suffer the consequences and I +asked him about officers by name who were present in the basement, if +they had seen him or talked to him, and he wouldn't discuss it. Knowing +Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby is the type of individual that can't be anywhere +for a period of time without talking to someone. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him specifically Roy Vaughn's name? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; the officer---- + +Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street exit? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. He made no comment? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he wouldn't discuss this. I asked him +about Detective Harrison. The films showed that Ruby was standing at +Harrison's shoulder. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about that? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He became very upset. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did--describe how he was upset? + +Lieutenant REVILL. This is when he said--well, he got real angry at me +and cussed me and told me---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Ruby did? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Oh, yes; told me I was a hatchet man and trying to +get the man's job. + +Mr. HUBERT. When he said you were trying to get the man's job, that is +Harrison's job? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He meant Harrison's job, so, what I did, was later +got it approved to put Harrison on the polygraph to determine if he had +seen Ruby prior to the shooting and if he had talked to Ruby. Well, the +polygraph examination showed that Harrison had no knowledge of Ruby +being present. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you interview Harrison, too? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I did. Showed him the film. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you sort of put him through any cross examination? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion of his veracity? Do you think he is +telling the truth? + +Lieutenant REVILL. If you believe a polygraph examination; he is. + +Mr. HUBERT. I was interested in your impression. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; and if this is being recorded, then I'd +rather not state an opinion as to his truth and veracity. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you mention on that first occasion any +other names to Ruby? I think you have mentioned already, Vaughn and---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. I mentioned the officers who were in the positions +to have seen Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him the name of Daniels, ex-police +officer? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I may have. I might have asked him if he knew +Daniels. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, that is all of your questions. He refused +to discuss and at this time he--his lawyer wasn't present? + +Lieutenant REVILL. On the second interview, which would have occurred +on December the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave that, I want to get a little bit more +information concerning this, I think you said, "Fit of anger," when he +cursed you and told you you were a hatchet man. + +Lieutenant REVILL. What upset him---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say any other things? + +Lieutenant REVILL. What upset him was that I was involved in this +thing. When I walked in he said something to the effect, "Well, +the Intelligence people are involved in it now. They think I am a +Communist." I don't know what gave him that idea, but I have known +Jack Ruby since 1953. I have never been a friend with him. I knew him +enough to talk to him. Lieutenant Cornwall took the position of being +his friend, and I was the foe, and that is the way we conducted our +interview. We were unable to get any information from him. + +Mr. HUBERT. But the mention of Harrison, apparently is the thing that +set---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. Set him off, and I have never been satisfied, +personally, with Harrison's statement. Of course, this is my personal +opinion. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that kind of answers the other question. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; it does. They were reluctant--I say, "They," +the other members of the committee were reluctant to have him submitted +to a polygraph examination, but I thought that this was one way of +determining if he was truthful or not. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was as a result of your insistence that he was put under +one? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, perhaps we can go to the second interview. On +what date was that? + +Lieutenant REVILL. This would have occurred on the 3d of December. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tuesday? + +Lieutenant REVILL. On a Tuesday, yes, sir. The afternoon of December 3. +What we had been attempting to do was to put Jack Ruby on a polygraph +machine, and his lawyer, Tom Howard, had been approached during the +first interview as to doing this. He stated that there were other +lawyers coming into the case and that he would have to have their +permission before agreeing to let Jack take this examination. + +On Monday we communicated with Tom by telephone and he kept hedging +with us, and telling us he had not heard from the other lawyers. By +"Tom," I mean Tom Howard, the lawyer. On Tuesday, we discussed it again +with him and he stated that he was still trying to work this thing out. +So, Cornwall and I again decided--that we would go directly to Jack +Ruby. He was the person involved, and we would give him the opportunity +to submit to the examination. If he wanted to, fine. If he doesn't want +to then it's also fine. So, we went to Jack on the 2d--on the 3d of +December and gave him the opportunity to take the polygraph. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you asked him? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Asked him, yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was his lawyer present then? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Not in the beginning. We later called Tom Howard to +the interview so that he could be present, and they refused to have +Jack submitted. + +Mr. HUBERT. At first when you asked Jack about going on the polygraph +machine prior to Tom Howard's being present, what did he say? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He said--during the second interview he said that +his lawyer would have to---- + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, then his lawyer came and---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. They declined. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk about the basement? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Tried to. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was the result of that? + +Lieutenant REVILL. And again, this was part of their defense, and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any anger at you then? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I think it was a carryover from the first +interview, but this was a strategy that we used. Let him be angry with +me, thinking maybe that he might tell us something, but he never did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention Harrison's name on the second interview? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I possibly did, but at this time he was more +composed, and there was no--I don't recall any outbursts. + +Mr. HUBERT. I gather that the second interview was not fruitful, in +that nothing---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. No information was gathered? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Neither interview was fruitful, other than from his +outburst. It led me to believe that possibly he had talked to some +officer, or had been seen by some officer prior to the shooting, but I +was never able to confirm this. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the time you saw Ruby, I take it you had not interviewed +this man, Ray Rushing? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And didn't know anything about it? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. By the way, how did you find out about it? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He called me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Ray Rushing called you? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; I had assisted him, oh, approximately a year +ago on a problem he was having with one of his preachers. He has got +several preachers in his employment, and it was--involved a theft, and +I was able to assist him, and he called me. + +Mr. HUBERT. What date, about? + +Lieutenant REVILL. When he called me? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Lieutenant REVILL. It was during the trial. During the picking of the +jurors. The specific date, I do not recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, he came in and you interviewed him and made a +verbal report to Alexander. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Oh, Alexander was present at the interview. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the result of that interview was passed +to the FBI or to any Government agencies? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nor is there a written report? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no written report. Rushing was reluctant to +take the stand. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, he did. Because of his fight with the liquor +industry they would use this to fight him with. Any publicity they +might get of a derogatory nature would hurt him. We tried to emphasize +the point that this would not be derogatory publicity. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you point out to him that the position was somewhat +inconsistent with the fact that he was a volunteer? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he say? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He decided he would testify if his testimony was +needed. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was his statement as to his original motivation for +reporting this matter, that is to say, that he had seen Ruby? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I don't believe he ever said what motivated him to +report this incident. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever asked, that you know of, why he had delayed so +long? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I asked him that myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he say? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Well, he used the same story, that he did not want +to become involved in this thing because of his fight or his crusade to +dry up the liquor industry. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, how did he then explain the fact that he had +volunteered? + +Lieutenant REVILL. He didn't explain it. Now, this is an assumption on +my part. I believe this is why Mr. Alexander was reluctant to use him, +because Mr. Rushing is the type that there is a Communist under each +tree or each rock. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is Rushing? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Late forty's, or early fifty's. + +Mr. HUBERT. Has he been in the Dallas area long? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; he had just recently moved to Dallas from +South Dakota. He tells me he is a personal friend of Senator Mundt and +the Governor of South Dakota and other influential people, which may or +may not be true. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you check to see whether he actually does have a church? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; he is on the radio throughout the Nation. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you showed me prior to the commencement of this +deposition, a large folder which you identified as--which is identified +from the title page of the jacket cover "File No. INT--" + +Lieutenant REVILL. That's intelligence. + +Mr. HUBERT. "Intelligence 25--1 through INT--intelligence 25--subject +Jack Ruby, DPD," which, I believe means Dallas Police Department. +"36398," which is the jacket, I suppose, and folder of the special +services bureau? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Well, yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you also advise me that most of this information, or +most of this folder, all except actually the first five pages are +reports that have been built up after the shooting? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; this is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. You state to me also, I think, that this jacket has been +made available to the Secret Service? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did they make copies of it? Do you know? + +Lieutenant REVILL. They made copies of much of this information. + +Mr. HUBERT. You dealt with Mr. Sorrels? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Not directly with Mr. Sorrels himself. Some of his +agents. If I might use that, I might be able to explain it more fully. +If it is necessary for the record---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was considering making it a part of the record, +but I don't want, obviously, to take it away from you and I don't have +authority at the present time to subpena it. + +Lieutenant REVILL. I will make you copies of anything you want. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is what I wanted to get at. If copies have been +made already and turned over to the Secret Service, that would be +unnecessary. + +Lieutenant REVILL. For example, here was toll calls, telephone +long-distance calls placed from the telephone at the Carousel at +1312-1/2 Commerce. The Ruby residence, at 223 South Ewing, and also +the Vegas Club at 3508 Oak Lawn, and also his sister's residence, Eva +Grant's. + +Mr. HUBERT. As of what date? + +Lieutenant REVILL. These go back to September 24, 1963, +through--correction on that. Some of them go back to May of 1963. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's deal with it this way, suppose I check to see +how much of this the Secret Service, or the FBI has? + +Lieutenant REVILL. The FBI has this, because I gave it to them +personally. + +Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Of this particular---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Analyses of phone calls? + +Lieutenant REVILL. The phone calls. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, dealing with the whole report, suppose we do it this +way, if we find that there is not, in possession of one of the Federal +agencies, the entire record, I may ask you at a later time to make it +available for photostating, or if you could do it---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. We can do it. Anything we can do. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then what we would do is that you could execute an +affidavit instead of having to come and make a deposition to the effect +that the attached report is true, is a true and correct copy of the +originals. I think that is possibly the best way. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Any way that it is the easiest for you. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have any other things that you would like +to say? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I can't think of a thing. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, now---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. Wish there was something I could do to shed some +light on it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was it a part of your function to check out all rumors +concerning connections between Ruby and Oswald? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or between Ruby and other groups from the left, right, and +middle of the road, or whatnot? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes; this was our function. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you, in fact, check out those that came to your +attention? + +Lieutenant REVILL. All that came to our attention, yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there a special report on that checkout? + +Lieutenant REVILL. There are many reports. Each lead that came in as a +possible connection, investigation was conducted and a report submitted +concerning that specific rumor. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, every rumor was investigated and an +individual report made on it, but they are not collected together +anyplace? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; no synopsis. + +Mr. HUBERT. They are not part of this document 81-A? The investigation +that you identified earlier? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there are copies of these various reports that +could be made available to us? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir; I can make them available to you. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would appreciate it if you would, because if you have +a lot of that checkout work that would be helpful. How much of a job +would it be to photostat all of those things? Did you turn them over to +the FBI? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or any other Federal agent? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Anything that they wanted we gave to them. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean, this mass of documents, as I +gather, are individual reports on individual rumors and so forth, you +didn't turn those over? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. As a block? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Now, I say we didn't. Let me qualify this, our +reports that we make up, a copy is submitted to Chief Curry daily. Now, +what he does with these reports, I do not know. He may have turned +these over to some Federal agency. + +Mr. HUBERT. I tell you what I would like for you to do, if you please, +is to find out if they have been turned over to the FBI. I know a lot +of rumors have. + +Lieutenant REVILL. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. It may be that all that you ran out and reported on they +have too, and therefore, it would be repetition to have them in there, +but what we would be interested in is the copy of the reports and +investigation of those reports or rumors that have not been turned over +to the FBI. Now, I wonder when you could let me know? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Let you know today. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Lieutenant REVILL. And if they have not, what we will do is pull from +our file copies, and we will make copies available to you of each and +every investigation that we conducted of a connection, or rumor, or +connection between Ruby and Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, make photostatic copies and turn them over +to me. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would appreciate it and just write at the bottom of +it, if you will, and sign it, that this is one of the investigations +concerning a rumor, conducted by you, or whoever it was. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Do you want this as to each individual report, or +collectively? + +Mr. HUBERT. You would have to initial each individual report so that we +would be sure. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That those are the reports that you referred to in this +deposition. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. That would be very helpful to me. Then you can turn that +over to me and we will make it a part of this deposition. In other +words, you would certify that these reports are the ones that you were +talking about during this deposition, and that to the best of your +knowledge, they are correct. In effect, it will be as though you were +here or under oath telling us that that is correct and that will close +the record up. The only other way would be to have you come here and +identify each one and I am trying to avoid that---- + +Lieutenant REVILL. Let me ask you a question. These reports that we +make reference to were submitted by officers under my supervision. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; well, I see your point. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Will each one of these officers need to initial +them, or can I do this? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, we'll have the understanding that this was done under +your supervision, that you can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of +every one of them, but that it is a report made in the course of police +department business and that you and the police department rely upon +those reports. + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that will be fine. Have you been interviewed by any +member of the Commission's staff by--prior to the deposition of this +morning, and other than the interview that you and I had just preceding +this interview this morning? + +Lieutenant REVILL. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the interview that you and I had this morning +before this deposition began right here in this room have we, in this +deposition, covered all that we talked about in that interview? + +Lieutenant REVILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there any material information that we talked about in +the interview that has not been brought out in the deposition? + +Lieutenant REVILL. I do not know of any. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's it. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CAPT. JAMES MAURICE SOLOMON + +The testimony of Capt. James Maurice Solomon was taken at 2 p.m., on +March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, +Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. J. M. Solomon of the Dallas +Police Department. Captain Solomon, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a +member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's +Commission. + +Under the provision of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, +1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of +procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive +order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn +deposition from you, Captain Solomon. + +I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Captain Solomon, the nature +of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the +death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you might know about the +general inquiry. + +Captain Solomon, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request +made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on +the staff of the President's Commission. + +Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day +written notice prior to the taking of your deposition. But the rules +also provide that any witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes +to do so. Now, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the +3-day notice? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, then; would you please raise your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SOLOMON. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, Captain? + +Mr. SOLOMON. James Maurice Solomon. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, Captain? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Fifty-four. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? + +Mr. SOLOMON. 1502 East Ohio. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation? + +Mr. SOLOMON. My occupation at the present time at the police department +is reserve coordinator. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are a member of the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a member of the department? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Thirty years last September. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your particular assignment now is to coordinate the reserve +affairs? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. SOLOMON. My offices are at the police academy, and I am used out +there in training recruits. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you in that same position during the period November +22 to 24, 1963? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to state for the record just how the +reserve program of the Dallas Police Department is set up, because I +don't think we have it in the record otherwise. + +Mr. SOLOMON. Well, I am sure you don't. The reserve operates different +in every city that I know, and just to their particular needs. + +Now, the reserve organization in Dallas is strictly what the name +implies. It is, really a reserve intended to be called upon when there +is a catastrophe, some real bad emergency, to augment our manpower. + +It is a semimilitary organization in that we call it the reserve +platoon. It has three companies commanded by a captain. Each company +has three platoons. And each platoon has three squads. There are +approximately--it fluctuates just a little bit--but there are +approximately 300 men in the organization. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is the reserve captain? + +Mr. SOLOMON. There are four reserve captains. Now, the reserve major +is Major Tropolis, the major in command. We call him the reserve +commander. He is George Tropolis. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who are the captains? + +Mr. SOLOMON. The captains are J. E. Marks, C. O. Arnett--I believe you +talked to him last night--L. C. Crump and O. S. Muller. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do these men train at regular intervals? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. They are all required to go through a training +program of about 72 hours. They do that 1 night a week. Takes about 8 +months to complete that before they are used in any way, before they +are given a uniform or anything of that nature. + +After they complete this training, they are outfitted with a uniform at +their own expense, and from then on the participation that they do is +considered observation training. + +In other words, there is a program set up whereby they report at least +two times a month. We have it set up twice a month, and mandatory that +they come every third month. If they don't we drop them. + +But each reserve is required to report at least once a month for +observation training. He can do this in a squad car, in the jail +office, or dispatcher's office, or in any phase of the police +operation, really, and he is in uniform, and he works right alongside +the regular officer and just assists him in his work in anything he +wants him to do if he has a belligerent prisoner, but still that is +considered observation training. + +Here in the last year or so, we have been using our reserves more +maybe like an auxiliary, but there have been times such as a parade +or football parade--in other words, it wasn't an extreme emergency, +but it was an event that we realized we needed more manpower, and they +were anxious and willing and eager to help us, and they were being in +uniform and were doing a good job. + +You want me to continue? + +Mr. HUBERT. Do these men get any pay for this? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No. There is no pay at all. + +Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, they buy their own pistol and uniform? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. They buy their own initial uniform. After that their +uniforms are maintained with the old uniforms that the regular officers +outgrow or something like that. + +Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you have said that you are rather strict +as to the training program that these people must observe, otherwise +you drop them? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What about the basic selection of these people? How do you +go about that? What are the criteria you use to select them? + +Mr. SOLOMON. We have just an application form similar to what anybody +would fill out in applying for a job, which is for their background, +their schooling, what type of work they have been engaged in, where +they have lived, and so forth. Then, of course, I submit that +application to our personnel bureau which runs a background check on +them, criminal and civil, or any court record they might have that +might show their emotional stability or we run a credit check on them +for bad debts or something like that, that kind of indication that they +are not stable. And traffic arrests. + +If it is somebody out of the ordinary, why we are kind of strict +along that score. I have these reserve captains that I just mentioned +that comprise the reserve staff, and each applicant I get after the +personnel board submits their findings, they interview the men, and +they have some information to go on there, and whether he is accepted +to go to school. After they interview him and ask him questions about +trying to feel out if they think he is emotionally suited for that kind +of work. + +Mr. HUBERT. What, in your opinion, is it that interests a man to want +to be in the reserve program? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Well, that may be a vocation a little bit. You know, +before I got into the program, I thought maybe it was just a group of +people that were just trying to--they were just eager, I would say, in +other words. + +I thought they were, how should I say it, I just felt like they were +kind of overeager, or just nosy, so to speak, and they just wanted to +see around. But after I got into the program, I was amazed to find the +caliber of men. I have only been in 7 years. I went in 1957. It was +begun in 1952. And the man that had it then has since made a promotion +to inspector, and I was assigned out there. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have satisfied yourself, I gather, that +the motivation of these people for getting in the reserves is that they +consider it a civic duty? + +Mr. SOLOMON. A civic duty, yes, sir; civic minded. + +Mr. HUBERT. It is not just that they want the authority of the uniform? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. Of course, we have applicants like that. It +is the duty of the staff, in a drawn-out process of training, which +is really drawn out 8 months, and long enough to observe them, to +eliminate the ones they don't feel are suitable. I nearly always start +off with a class of 50 men and I rarely ever graduate over 30--27 to 30. + +During that period of time some naturally drop out and some I ask to +leave, or just wash out, one way or another, as quickly as I can. After +all, it is a public relations program, and if I understand somebody is +in there that I know will get us in trouble, I find some excuse for him +to leave. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, actually, about 60 percent of the people who start +ultimately get into the program? + +Mr. SOLOMON. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you watch their conduct very carefully? On duty, of +course I know, but off duty too? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Well, yes. We have had a few occasions where a few got +into some trouble. I guess just drinking or some did get into some bad +debts and embarrass us, but we counseled with them. And I have had to +let some go. Percentagewise this hasn't been much greater than in our +regular department. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I want to get to the matter of the +interview you had with Harold Holly, who I think is a reserve officer? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you state in your own words just what that was all +about? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Well, Holly was with us a long time. He was in the +organization, I have forgotten how many years, but I don't guess that +is important. + +But frankly, Holly was--he is confused. I am not exactly satisfied that +he is sure about what he is saying. His statements were so general, +such a general nature, and when I showed him the pictures he was unable +to positively identify them. + +This man that he did pick out and said that he looked most like the man +that was in the basement was W. J. Newman. He was in the basement, but +he wasn't out at Parkland Hospital where he told them he saw him, and I +just got the impression that Holly was--he just wasn't too reliable a +witness. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you? Of course, we will get his +testimony, but what do you remember that Holly said to you? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Well, he first approached me--you see, I was at the +courthouse down in the area when Oswald was shot, so I knew immediately +from the previous slaying that one of our big headaches was going to be +at the Parkland Hospital, and I rushed on out there to try to set up a +little security out there. And Holly showed up out there after awhile, +and he made the statement to me that he thinks he knew a man--that is +the way he put it, that he thought he saw one of the men out there that +was in the basement of the city hall who knew something about that. And +I said, "Who was it," and he said, "I couldn't tell you, but I would +know him if I saw him." + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say the man was in uniform? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; he said he saw him out there at Parkland Hospital, so +I tried to check. + +Mr. HUBERT. This was told you at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; this afternoon. + +Mr. HUBERT. The 24th? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he thought he was a reserve officer? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is why he told it to you, I suppose? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes; right. So I tried to find out who he was talking +about, and he went with me and we couldn't find anybody that he thought +he saw. And just from the way he talked to me, I just lost confidence +in what he was trying to tell me. But I pursued it as far as I could, +naturally, and asked him if he could identify some pictures, and I got +all the pictures of the men that reported out there, and he picked out +this man. And from there on, I didn't question him any further. + +Mr. HUBERT. He did pick out the picture of W. J. Newman and he said +that was the man? + +Mr. SOLOMON. He said he thought it was, it looked most like him. I +don't think that it was, but it looked most like him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Newman was subsequently---- + +Mr. SOLOMON. He was interviewed by Jack Revill. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Newman yourself about the matter? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No; I didn't engage him in any conversation about it +because I knew they were going to and I just didn't want to get him +upset or say anything. I didn't know what he wanted to exactly question +him about. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that you have not talked to Newman about what he might +have seen or thought? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or what he reported or didn't report? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No; that is right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you present at the time in the basement, at the time +Oswald was killed? + +Mr. SOLOMON. I was not. I was at the county courthouse. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were not in the basement itself? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't know anything about what happened? + +Mr. SOLOMON. They were anticipating trouble. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were in the city hall? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. I thought you meant the Dallas Police Building? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No, sir; that is the county courthouse. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark for identification a document purporting +to be a report of an interview with you, Captain Solomon, made by FBI +Agents Hughes and Mabey on December 9, 1963, composed of two pages, +and I am identifying it by marking along the right margin line, +"Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5106, Deposition of Capt. J. +M. Solomon," and I am signing my name on the first page and putting on +the second page my initials in the lower right-hand corner. Captain +Solomon, have you read this document? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that we may recognize that we are talking about the same +thing, would you put your signature at the bottom and your initials on +the second page. + +Mr. SOLOMON. I don't think that this is what I did awhile ago. You want +my initials here? + +Mr. HUBERT. Just write by the margin and initials by the second page. + +Mr. SOLOMON. [Signs and dates.] + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have read that document, I think, Captain? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that a correct report of your interview with the FBI +Agents? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that is omitted or that you want to +change, or modify? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Captain, do you know anything about this matter other than +what we have talked about, that you would like to put into the record, +sir? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of +the Commission staff? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, before the commencement of this +deposition, I did not interview you? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think, Captain, that I mentioned the word "pistol" a +moment ago in connection with arming of the reserves? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Did you? I didn't recall it. + +Mr. HUBERT. You indicated to me that actually these men are not armed +with firearms? + +Mr. SOLOMON. No; they are not armed. Would you want to make part--this +part of the record? This is what I call an information sheet about what +the reserve is. A lot of times a citizen calls me and wants to know +something about it, and I mail them that. + +(Hands to Mr. Hubert.) + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will accept this. I will mark on the front +page, Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5107. You call that a +brochure? + +Mr. SOLOMON. I call it an information sheet. We generally refer to it +as a poop sheet. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am writing on this sheet, "Exhibit 5107, deposition of +Capt. J. M. Solomon." I am signing my name, and for identification, if +you will sign yours? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. That just gives a little more detail than what I told +you about it, and I had forgotten that. That might be important that +they are not armed. That is why we don't let them work in any capacity +unless they are in the company of an officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. On the day in question, to wit, the 24th of November 1963, +the reserve officers were in uniform but of course not armed? + +Mr. SOLOMON. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I notice that this Exhibit 5107 contains information about +the minimum standards that are required? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. For admission and maintaining the status of a reserve +officer, is that correct? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you state that these minimum standards are in force? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. One other question. Can you state that the reserve officers +that were on duty on the 24th did meet these minimum standards? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything else to say? + +Mr. SOLOMON. Well, I don't suppose you want to know that we had some on +duty during the Presidential Parade? Is that important? + +Mr. HUBERT. It might be in another aspect of the matter, but the one I +am inquiring about, it is not. However, I am sure that the information +that you have given me, generally speaking, should be made a part of +the record, and that is why I have done that. Thank you very much, sir. + +Mr. SOLOMON. You are so welcome. + +Mr. HUBERT. I appreciate your coming down. + +Mr. SOLOMON. All right. Thank you very much, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF M. W. STEVENSON + +The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 7 p.m., on March 23, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Assistant Deputy Chief M. W. +Stevenson of the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory +staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy. + +Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, +1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure +adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and +the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition +from you. + +Mr. Stevenson, I state to you now, that the general nature of the +Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the +facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and in particular as to +you, Mr. Stevenson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine +what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent +facts that you may know about the general inquiry. + +Mr. Stevenson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general +request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's +Commission. + +Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day +written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules +provide also that a witness may waive this notice of the taking of his +deposition. Are you willing to waive this notice in time? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I am; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you rise and be sworn, please. + +Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, +and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, your age, your +residence, and your occupation, and how long you have been in that +occupation? + +Mr. STEVENSON. M. W. Stevenson. I am 60 years of age. I reside at 3452 +Boulder Drive. I am with the Dallas Police Department. Have been for 36 +years. + +Mr. HUBERT. What position do you now occupy with the Dallas Police +Department? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I am deputy chief, commanding the criminal investigation +division. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you hold that same position during the period November +22 to 24 of 1963? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Since November of 1954. + +Mr. HUBERT. Generally speaking, what are the functions of your job? +What are your duties and responsibilities? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I am in command of the criminal investigation division, +and as such, I am responsible for the criminal investigation division +of the Dallas Police Department. + +I coordinate the work among the five bureaus which constitute the +criminal investigation division. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what those bureaus are, please, sir? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I have a homicide and robbery bureau, an automobile +theft bureau; I have a juvenile bureau; a burglary and theft bureau; +and a forgery bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us now who was in charge of each of those +bureaus during the period November 22-24, of 1963? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Fritz was in charge of the homicide bureau as +the immediate supervisor. Captain Jones was in charge of the forgery +bureau. Captain Nichols was off that day, and I don't know which +lieutenant was on. + +Mr. HUBERT. You say, "that day." I was really speaking of the 3-day +period. + +Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Nichols, I am sorry, was in charge of the +automobile theft bureau. Capt. F. M. Martin was in charge of the +juvenile bureau. Capt. W. C. Fannin was in charge of the burglary and +theft bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just to get the record clear, insofar as Captain Nichols is +concerned, you indicate he was off on 1 day of the 3-day period. Which +day was that? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I believe that was the 24th. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now each one of these bureau chiefs reports to you and is +responsible to you, is that correct? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That's right; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who are you responsible to? + +Mr. STEVENSON. To the assistant chief of police. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is that? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Chief Charles Batchelor. + +Mr. HUBERT. In the course of this examination, it would be helpful to +us if you would try to state an approximate time as to each episode or +fact that you testify to, and also indicate whether the fact or matter +or episode that you are testifying to is within your own knowledge; +that is to say, gained from your own observation, or whether the +information you give us was obtained from someone else, in that case, +tell us if you can remember who gave you the information. + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you just give us briefly an account of what you +did from about 12:30 on November 22 on forward. + +Mr. STEVENSON. At about or approximately 12:30 p.m., on the 22d, I was +at the Trade Mart on Industrial, as I had charge of the officers and +the security of the building for the luncheon of President Kennedy. + +At about 12:30, approximately, I was notified by Secret Service Agent +Grant and Captain Souter that the President had been shot. We didn't +know how severe. It was stated that he was on the way to the hospital. + +I immediately contacted Captain Fritz and two of his homicide men and +relieved them from their assignment at the Trade Mart and assigned them +to the investigation. As soon as I had done that, I relieved 13 other +detectives and supervisors. I believe it was 13. I told them to notify +headquarters they were available for assignment, and if no assignment, +to report to the Texas Book Depository, as it was reported that there +was a possibility the suspect might still be in the building. + +After that, as fast as I could safely in my own opinion relieve the +balance of men who I had on duty, because it had not been announced to +the entire group there what had happened--that was at the request of +the Secret Service that we didn't want a stampede there--as fast as I +could relieve the others, I started relieving and putting them on duty +and telling them to report to headquarters or notify headquarters they +were available for assignment and any assistance they could give. + +At approximately 1 or 1:15, I would say, Mr. Eric Jonsson notified the +group of people in the Trade Mart that the President had been shot and +had succumbed. Then as soon as we could empty the building, we relieved +everyone and put them all back on duty with instructions to report to +headquarters, where we kept them on duty as long as we needed any on +any of the assignments. Chief Batchelor was still at the Trade Mart +when we finally relieved all of the men. + +He and I left the Trade Mart and drove to Parkland Hospital to see if +we could render any assistance out there. When we got out there, we +found Mr. Lawson of the Secret Service. He stated he would be ready in +a few moments, to transfer the President's body to Love Field to be +flown back to Washington. He had no escort. He asked if we would escort +the hearse bearing the body to Love Field. We told him that we would. +He, and I believe it was a member of the White House staff, rode in the +car with us. We led the hearse to Love Field. Arrived at Love Field---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time you left the hospital, approximately? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I would say around 1:40, that is as near as I could say +offhand, Mr. Hubert. I would say 1:40 to 2 o'clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. So you provided the escort for the hearse leaving the +hospital about 1:40? + +Mr. STEVENSON. About 1:40 or 1:50. It's got to be somewhere in there, +because the body was not held at the hospital but a short while. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to the time that he shot +Oswald? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you have seen pictures of him since, I take it? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. While you were at the hospital, and I would like you to +state if you can, the time you arrived there, did you see Jack Ruby at +any place around the hospital? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, I did not. In fact, I did not get out of the car. +I sat in the car by the radio while Chief Batchelor walked into the +hospital to see if we could be of any further assistance. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time that you arrived there, Mr. +Stevenson? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I would say we arrived at the hospital around 1:40. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, then go on. + +Mr. STEVENSON. After we reached Love Field, the Secret Service men +loaded the casket onto the President's plane. They told us that they +had called Judge Sarah T. Hughes to administer the oath of office to +President Johnson. + +She arrived in a short time. We remained at Love Field until she +administered the oath and the plane was airborne. After the President's +plane was airborne, we left and came back to the city hall. We arrived +back at the city hall around 4 o'clock, I would say. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say city hall, do you mean police department? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Police Courts Building, our headquarters. + +Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I wish you would describe the relationship +between what is the police building and the municipal building of the +city hall. + +Mr. STEVENSON. The Police and Courts Building is what was, until a +few years ago, the city hall proper. A new building was constructed +adjacent to this building and adjoining it just east of the Police and +Courts Building. + +It is now ordinarily referred to as the city hall, the building which +is on the corner of Main, Harwood and Commerce, which is the old city +hall, now known as the Police and Courts Building, and houses the jail, +the police department, and one or two offices of our city government. +But primarily it is referred to, or should be referred to as the Police +and Courts Building. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, go on. So you arrived back at the police +department. + +Mr. STEVENSON. We arrived back at the office about 4 o'clock, or maybe +a few minutes later. I went directly to the homicide bureau. Chief +Batchelor went to the administrative offices. + +Before leaving the Trade Mart, I had gotten information through Captain +Souter that the suspect in the shooting of Officer Tippit had been +arrested. On the air on the way to the hospital, we heard several +squads being dispatched to Texas Theatre. I asked the dispatcher what +we had working at Texas Theatre, and he advised me that it was the +suspect who had shot Officer Tippit, that he had been arrested at the +Texas Theatre. + +At that time I advised them that Chief Batchelor and myself, or "2" +and "3," as I told him, which are our call numbers, were en route to +Parkland Hospital and would be in the area and back to the office as +soon as possible. When I arrived back at the city hall I went to the +homicide bureau to see what progress on our investigation was made, I +was advised that Oswald had definitely been identified in murder of +Officer Tippit. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who advised you of this? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Lieutenant Wells in the homicide office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald at that time? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I didn't; he was being interviewed, but I did +not see him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was interviewing him? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Fritz and some FBI agent, I don't know who, and +I believe a Secret Service agent. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware now of a message that had been sent by the +FBI to the Dallas Police Department concerning the security of Oswald? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Not at that time, no, sir. That was Friday afternoon? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you didn't learn that Mr. Hoover had sent word +that great care should be taken for the security? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Not at that time, I had not; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us without detail, generally speaking, of +your activities on the rest of the 22d, and the 23d. + +Mr. STEVENSON. After I was advised that he had definitely been +identified and from evidence which was being checked, it looked like +he possibly might be the same man who shot the President. I returned +to my office in the administrative offices, and was in and out of +the homicide bureau on numerous times, staying in touch with the +investigation, and they were in touch with my office. + +About 7 p.m., I believe it was 7, approximately 7, Oswald was filed on +for the murder of Officer Tippit, and was arraigned in the Police and +Courts Building by Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, I believe it was. + +Now at approximately, I would say, 7 or 8 o'clock, some word came to +me from Chief Curry, which apparently was from Mr. Hoover or someone +from Washington, that they wanted an agent of the FBI or Secret Service +present at all interviews. That was the first that I had heard of +anything from this, and that came to me through Chief Curry. + +At about 12 midnight, I was advised by Lieutenant Wells, and I +talked to Mr. Alexander, assistant district attorney, and Mr. Jim +Allen, former first assistant district attorney and a friend of the +department, and was advised that sufficient evidence had been obtained +and that charges were being filed in the death of President Kennedy. + +Mr. HUBERT. Charges against Oswald? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Oswald; yes, sir. He was arraigned. + +Mr. HUBERT. They did not tell you at that time, did they, what evidence +it was, but simply that it was sufficient evidence? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not all of it, but they told me at that time +that they had found a rifle that they were sure was the one. They +had talked to witnesses. The officer had seen him in the Texas Book +Depository a few minutes after the shooting. He was an employee down +there. He had left the building after the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. They told you all this at the time they told you that they +had enough in their opinion to charge? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; charges were filed. And at about 1:30 a.m., on +the 23d, he was arraigned in the identification bureau on the charge +of murdering President Kennedy, before Judge Dave Johnston, and was +returned to his cell under guard at that time after the arraignment. I +was present at that arraignment. I was not present at the arraignment +on the Tippit case. + +After he was arraigned, I returned to my office and was in my office, +the homicide office or bureau where I might have business for the +balance of the night up until about 3 o'clock, at which time the +homicide office was closed until the following morning. I remained on +duty in the administrative offices with detectives whom we had working +that night standing by for any assignments or any other information we +might get, that we wanted to investigate during the night--and left +the city hall, the Police and Courts Building at about 12:35 Saturday +afternoon. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now are you familiar with the lineup conducted in the +regular assembly or lineup room of the Dallas Police Department of +Oswald when some newspaper people were present? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that? First of all, what time was +it? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That was a few moments after charges were filed, I +believe, by the district attorney. + +Mr. HUBERT. Charges on Oswald? + +Mr. STEVENSON. On Oswald in the President's death. The district +attorney, Mr. Wade, and the assistant, Mr. Alexander, were present. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you present? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I did not go into the room, I just went to the door down +there. I was present when they did go down for the showup, but I did +not go into the room. + +Mr. HUBERT. You say you did not look into the room? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I did not go into the room. The door, of course, was +open, but I was present when they left the third floor, the homicide +office, to go down for this lineup. + +Mr. HUBERT. You went down to the door of the lineup room? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall looking in at all? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, I could look in through the open door. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man since identified as Jack Ruby, in that +room? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, no, sir; I did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. Frankly, I was not close enough. The only ones +that I could see or did see were those lined up in the front of the +room. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that room, do you suppose? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I would say, and this is an estimate on my part, Mr. +Hubert--I would say from 100 to 125, including officers and news media +and everything. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security plan or actual operations were +put into effect with respect to Oswald during that period? + +Mr. STEVENSON. When he left upstairs, he was taken back through the +jail office. From the jail office down, there is an elevator to the +downstairs jail office, onto the "showup stage," as we call it in the +assembly room. He was taken down through the jail; was not taken out +from there. + +Now to take him into the showup room, I was not where I could see how +many officers were around him. But it was necessary to bring him from +the elevator next to the homicide bureau every time we brought him down +to interview him. At that time we would have as many as three officers +with him, and from four to half a dozen officers on the route through +to the next door. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what check was made of the people who were +allowed into the assembly room? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No one was supposed to have been in the assembly room or +on the third floor except news media properly identified. + +Mr. HUBERT. How was this established? + +Mr. STEVENSON. We had officers at the elevators and the stairways with +instructions that unless they were an official or connected with an +official news media, they were not to be permitted on that floor unless +they had business in one of the other bureaus, and the officer was to +escort him to that bureau. + +We later eliminated as much of that as we could that night by calling +the jail office. If he wanted to visit some prisoner at the jail, the +jail personnel called the bureau and were instructed as to whether a +pass would be permitted. + +Mr. HUBERT. But do you know whether or not, as these newsmen and the +rest of the other news media went into the assembly room for this +lineup, whether they were checked in any way again upon entering? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't, because when I went down to the +basement, they were already in the room. In other words, they had +already filed into the room. + +Mr. HUBERT. What else do you know in general terms about the security +of Oswald when he was in the cell? I think you have already covered +when he was being moved? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; there was a guard on his cell at all times, and at +sometimes there were as many as two, but around the clock a guard was +placed outside his cell door. He was not permitted to converse with +other prisoners. In fact, he was placed in a cell where it would be +impossible for other prisoners to get to him. + +For the arraignment in the murder of the President, he was brought from +the jail into the identification bureau, where there is a barred door +coming in to identification room from jail. He was not brought back +through the Police and Courts Building proper. He was brought directly +from the jail into the identification bureau when he was arraigned. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that takes us then to 12:30 on Saturday. You were +on duty until 12:30 a.m. on Saturday? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you come back to duty thereafter? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I came back to the city hall Saturday evening about +7 or 7:15, and went immediately to the homicide bureau to check on +any further developments, and was advised that the case was building +stronger, other evidence being accumulated, and if I might go back +a little bit now, at around 1 o'clock, on Saturday morning--I am +trying to get my time straightened out here--the pertinent evidence +that we had checked in the case of Oswald's shooting of the President +was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Laboratory in +Washington, D.C., to be processed, the rifle and other evidence as +that for fingerprints and any other evidence that might help us in the +investigation. + +After I had gotten back to the city hall Saturday afternoon, through +discussion, I don't recall from whom, but in the hallway, that the +prisoner would not be transferred before 10 o'clock the next morning. + +I went to Chief Batchelor and asked him about the authenticity of that +particular remark, and he said, "Yes, that's right." And I said, "Has +the press been notified?" And he said, "Yes." + +Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that you first heard about the fact that +Oswald would not be moved Saturday night? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Approximately 7:30 p.m., on the 23d. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now just what was it you heard and what was it that was +confirmed by Batchelor? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I heard, as I stated, I don't know who made the remarks, +but from the discussion in the hall, that Oswald would be moved not +before 10 o'clock the next morning. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did the information that you received indicate a time of +removal the next day? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Nothing but that it would not be before 10 o'clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. It didn't say what time after 10 o'clock? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Batchelor tell you what time it would be after 10 +o'clock? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. I went to Chief Batchelor--the reason I went to +Chief Batchelor with that when I heard these remarks, I wanted to know +if the press had been told. I went to Chief Batchelor and affirmed the +fact that the statement had been made and that the press had been told. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; just go ahead then. + +Mr. STEVENSON. I remained at my office in the Police and Courts +Building until approximately 10:30 Saturday night, at which time I went +home. + +And returned to the Police and Courts Building at approximately 8 +o'clock, Sunday morning, the 24th. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now before you left your duty on Saturday night, do you +know of any plans that had been made for the transfer of Oswald and the +security of that transfer? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not on Saturday night, to my knowledge, I don't +recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, proceed to Sunday, please, sir. + +Mr. STEVENSON. I arrived at the basement of the Police and Courts +Building at approximately 8 o'clock. Maybe 8:15. + +I believe Chief Batchelor arrived at about the same time, and Chief +Curry either came in near that time or a few minutes later. Now, I +don't recall. + +When Chief Batchelor and I were in the basement; we observed a Captain +Talbert had already started setting up security in the basement and on +the streets outside. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you describe what you mean when you say he had already +started setting up security? + +Mr. STEVENSON. He had placed officers on the Commerce Street side of +the city hall at the top of the ramp. + +There was two or three officers at that time, we observed, in the +basement. And I believe Captain Talbert was in the basement, and one of +the sergeants, possibly Sergeant Dean. I could be wrong on Dean being +there at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first came in? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That was when we first arrived at the city hall. It +was too early at that time to see just where we would want the men +assigned, or where he would have them assigned, rather, because I was +not assigning the men to security other than being of any assistance +to the men in my division that I could possibly be. Chief Curry, Chief +Batchelor, and myself looked over the basement shortly after, or I +would say 8:45. Chief Curry observed a large TV camera sitting back in +the alcove as you go into the double doors into the Police and Courts +Building of the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that the basement side of those double doors, or on the +jail side? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That was just outside the jail windows after you get +through the double doors from inside the Police and Courts Building. +It was sitting outside the doors in the part of what is a part of the +basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. + +Mr. STEVENSON. He instructed that the camera would have to be moved +and moved across the driveway into the parking area proper. He also +instructed at that time, I believe it was at that time, that the two +cars that were parked, I would say it was a squad car and a plain car, +in spaces one and two, as I will refer to them, were directly across +from the door leading out of the basement, that they would be moved and +those spaces left unoccupied, no cars would be parked in there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, I have before me the chart of the basement +area including the jail office and parking area and the ramps and so +forth. I am going to date it, and I am doing so now, "Dallas, Tex., +March 23, 1964, as Exhibit 5050," in the deposition of Chief M. W. +Stevenson. I am signing it with my own name, and I am going to ask you +to sign it just below mine, because in your testimony from now on out, +I am going to ask you to refer to this chart and put certain positions +down on it. + +Now, when you mentioned just now, a moment ago when you said that Chief +Curry asked that two cars in spots one and two be moved off, would you +indicate on Exhibit 5050 by putting "Spot 1," and "Spot 2," what cars +he was talking about? + +(Writing on chart.) + +Mr. STEVENSON. Right here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just put "Spot," so we will know. "Spot 1," and "Spot 2." + +All right, was that done? Were the cars moved? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; they were moved from those two parking spaces. + +Mr. HUBERT. What happened next? + +Mr. STEVENSON. At that time we all returned back up to the third floor. +That was approximately, I would say, 8:40 or 8:45. + +Mr. HUBERT. That would be you and Captain Batchelor? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That would be me and Assistant Chief Batchelor and Chief +Curry. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Mr. STEVENSON. We went back upstairs, and I would say 30 minutes +later, or approximately 9 or 9:15, Chief Curry and Chief Batchelor had +discussed the possibility of moving the prisoner in an armored car due +to some threats--incidentally, I have to drop back a little. + +Chief Batchelor notified me, when I met him down there that morning, +that Captain Frazier, I believe it was, had called him at home and told +him that the FBI had called up with some information that, I won't say +how many, but a group of people were going to take Oswald away from the +officers on the transfer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Captain Frazier tell you? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No; he called Chief Batchelor, and he told me that +Captain Frazier had called him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Told him there had been a message received from the FBI +that someone had called the FBI? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Stating that there would be an effort made; is that correct? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Captain Batchelor indicate to you at that time whether +the FBI knew who had made this call? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that it was an anonymous call? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I believe, as I remember, he did say that the message +that he got was that an anonymous caller had notified the FBI. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead with it then. + +Mr. STEVENSON. They had discussed the possibility of transferring +the prisoner in an armored car due to these threats. I walked in the +office, in the chief's office while that was being discussed, and the +chief asked me what I thought about it. + +I told him I thought it would be a good idea, in view of the threats. +Chief Batchelor went to his office to contact one of the local +armored truck operators, who was, I believe, a Mr. Fleming, and made +arrangements to get an armored truck. I remained around the office on +the third floor, and I believe Chief Batchelor and I made another trip +down in the basement before I went after some coffee. + +Chief Batchelor advised Chief Curry he had ordered the armored truck +and told Chief Curry, he and I were going to the basement and look the +area over. We went to the basement, and Captain Talbert had set up, +what we thought, was a very good security. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see it yourself? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I saw the officers, where they were distributed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state then for the record just what you saw, what +you stated you considered to be good security? And it might be that you +will want to use that chart to indicate what you mean. + +Mr. STEVENSON. He had placed officers--he had not stationed them +definitely, but he had officers there checking everybody that came +into the basement. He had officers down there that searched the entire +basement area, searching cars, on top of the heat conduits, and so +forth. He had officers on the ramp up here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, you say, "up here"? + +Mr. STEVENSON. At the top of the Commerce Street ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many officers did he have there? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I don't know just how many. He had some reserve and +regular officers. And Captain Arnett advised us, I believe it was on +this trip, that he had been instructed by Captain Talbert to move all +of the people to the southside of Commerce Street, permit none of them +to congregate on the city hall or Police and Courts Building side of +Commerce, and that he had done that. We observed that the crowd was +across the street. He had an officer stationed up here at the top of +the Main Street ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that officer's name? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Vaughn, I believe it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would write his name there in your own +handwriting. + +Let the record indicate that Mr. Stevenson is writing the name of the +Officer Vaughn on Exhibit 5050. + +Can you tell us what officers you saw in the basement area? + +Mr. STEVENSON. At that time when I was down there, I cannot say other +than that I did see Captain Talbert. He was all over the area. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time was this, about, again? + +Mr. STEVENSON. This was around 9:45, I guess. As best I recall the time +on that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Any of the news people there then? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; there were a few. This camera had been moved. +They were back over in this area back in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you are indicating on the chart that they had +been moved to what is called there the parking area? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Parking area of the basement; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead. + +Mr. STEVENSON. We returned back upstairs to the third floor. Chief +Lumpkin and I went to the second floor to the patrol captain's office. +Captain Talbert came up to the office and asked us to have a cup of +coffee with him, which we did. He asked us at this time about the time +of the route of the transfer. We told him at that time that we didn't +know definitely, but that we believed that it would be east on Commerce +to Central, north on Central to Main, and west on Main to the county +jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. You say that you were not certain of that information, but +that you had gathered it? Could you expand on that and tell us where +you think you got that information? As far as you are concerned, then, +there had been no plans that you knew of as to the route? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Not the exact route at 9:45 or 10 o'clock, somewhere in +that area. He asked us what route it would travel, and we told him that +we believed that it would go up to the Central Expressway and west on +Main at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you used the pronoun "we," whom do you mean? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Chief Lumpkin and I. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that the route, so far as you knew it at that time, +would be out of the Commerce Street exit, turning left, going beyond +Pearl Street, which was one way against the direction which you wanted +to go, and then over to North Central Expressway? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Turning left again and going to Main Street, turning left +again, and then all the way down Main to Houston? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he give any instructions, or did he indicate what he +was going to do in connection with that plan? + +Mr. STEVENSON. He said that he would call 10 men from his outside +patrol and place one at each intersection on the route that would be +taken to the county jail, which, as I said, at that time we figured +would be Main Street, and he did make necessary arrangements. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right then; go ahead. + +Mr. STEVENSON. After we had drunk a cup of coffee, we returned back to +the third floor and were advised a few moments later--Chief Batchelor +advised me that the man had called him and that he was preparing to +send the truck now. We again went to the basement, he and I, to see +about the arrival of the armored truck. + +I instructed Detective Captain O. A. Jones to go to the top of the +Commerce Street ramp leading out of the basement to notify the two +officers who were on duty there, to assist the truck when it came up +and get it backed in as far as it would go down the ramp. Captain Jones +did this and advised me that he also told Captain Talbert what he had +done so that Captain Talbert would not move the officers when they got +there. The truck was en route at that time. + +After the truck arrived and was backed in, Chief Batchelor advised +me that he and Lieutenant Smart opened the truck up and searched it +completely, taking out, I believe, a couple of empty Coca-Cola bottles +or soft drink bottles. + +I had returned to the third floor, went to the homicide office, +homicide bureau office, Chief Curry, Lieutenant Pierce, Captain Fritz, +and I believe an FBI agent, and Lee Harvey Oswald was in Captain Fritz' +office and some Federal officer had been interviewing him, oh, I would +say at least for an hour, and I was advised at that time by Chief +Curry---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What time was that? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That was about 11:10 or 11:15--that they had changed +their plans after discussing it with Captain Fritz and that instead of +using the armored truck to transport the prisoner to the county jail, +they would use the truck as a decoy because a car would be much more +maneuverable if a crowd tried or anyone started to stop the car or +take the prisoner, that the truck would proceed east on Commerce from +the Commerce Street ramp to the Central Expressway north, north to Elm +Street, Elm Street west to Houston, and would turn left and not stop at +the county jail, but pass by the county jail on Houston, that the car +carrying the prisoner followed by another car of detectives, and Chief +Curry's car, which was also parked out in the street, would leave the +truck at Main Street on North Central and turn west down Main Street +and proceed directly to the county jail. + +And the sheriff's office had been notified and would have the steel +gate open where the car could drive in and the gate could be closed +directly behind it. When given this information, I left the homicide +bureau and started back to the basement. + +I met Chief Lumpkin at the elevator on the way to the basement and +I advised him of the change in plan. On arriving at the basement, I +advised Chief Batchelor and Captain Jones of the change in the plan. + +I had been in the basement a minute or two after I had advised them of +the change, and two detectives were bringing two police and plain cars +from the parking area proper onto the ramp from the parking area. + +I stepped across the driveway and instructed the officers there to +assist the detective in getting these cars up on the ramp where it +could back into, to pick the prisoner up, and follow the last car which +was driven by Detective Dhority. As I came out of the parking area, the +car pulled onto the ramp to back up. + +I stepped across behind the car right over here. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you draw a little square roughly the +size of the automobile driven by Dhority, and then place a circle to +indicate your own position of that time? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That is a long automobile, but as I recall, this post, +I was standing right here, and the car had gotten back to right along +here. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were on the south side of that post, standing? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I believe I was standing right here at the edge. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that the very front of the automobile on the right side? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No; I was just about at the right door hinge. The right +front door hinge, that is where I was standing. That is a very poor +drawing of the car, Mr. Hubert. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. Just put in there, "police car," in that +square. + +Now you have also drawn a circle to the south of that post, and I wish +you would draw a little arrow and put your initials indicating that +that was your position. + +Now let me get this. Did your position change from the way you have +marked it here at all up until Ruby shot Oswald? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; it did not. If I may explain this a little bit, +from where I have drawn this circle, this post that extends out here is +built onto the wall, and where I was standing, I could see plumb back +into here. I was not behind the post as it looks like here. + +Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the post and the right +side of the automobile? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I would say there was 3 feet. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you describe for us the position of the news +media in the basement area there, giving us as much as possible the +number of people, say, on the Main Street ramp, and the number of +people in the basement area proper? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I would say from the corner of the building here, +straight across. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "here," just mark a point. Let's call that +"number 1" to point number 2. + +Mr. STEVENSON. I can make that up this way, I believe. + +I would say in this area, from here to here, and over here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's say you are talking about the southwest wall of +the---- + +Mr. STEVENSON. From the west wall--we term that the west side of the +driveway of the ramp to the east side, and back up to here. + +Mr. HUBERT. And back up to approximately where the ramp begins to go +up, is it? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Let me look at my small map. + +I may have that marked wrong. I may not be saying what I want to say. +If I have those maps with me, I hope I have as much as I worked on that +thing. I ought to tell you with my eyes closed. + +I evidently left them. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Let's get at it this way. + +Mr. STEVENSON. The driveway end out from right here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Don't say from right here. Let me put it to you this way. +On the Main Street ramp, it is from the---- + +Mr. STEVENSON. That would be the entrance into the---- + +(Discussion off the record to orient positions.) + +Mr. HUBERT. From the corner which is formed by the intersection of the +jail corridor and the Main Street ramp on a line roughly due east or +northeast, rather, and another line running along the Main Street ramp, +and then another line across the ramp to the wall, how many news people +were in that area? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I would say, and it is purely a guess, from 30 to 40 on +the north ramp, Mr. Hubert. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many people can you estimate could stand abreast along +there? + +Mr. STEVENSON. It is 12 feet and 6 inches wide, the ramp is. I would +say 5 people could stand in there side by side. + +Mr. HUBERT. It actually is a little wider, is it not? + +Mr. STEVENSON. It is down here. That is why I was looking for another +little map I had there. It is 15 and 2 here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, roughly speaking, how many people did you see abreast +there, and how many ranks of such people were there? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I don't know how many ranks there were. I would say +there were, counting the officers and the detectives, and that is what +I would have to go by, because we had detectives ranging that whole +area. + +I would say they were 6 or 7 or 8 deep. + +Mr. HUBERT. And about 5 or 6 across? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that somewhere between 40 and 50 people? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Possibly; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the basement area itself, in, and particularly that +portion which faces into the jail corridor, how many people were there? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I would say, counting police officers and everybody, and +again that is what I'd have to go by, I would say there were at least +50 in this area in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say this area in here, you are describing a +semicircle? + +Mr. STEVENSON. From the two spaces which were cleared in the parking +area proper back to---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Just draw a line. + +Mr. STEVENSON. [Compliance.] + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you just mark within that line the number of people +that you think were within that space? + +Mr. STEVENSON. [Compliance.] + +Mr. HUBERT. Now mark the same way on the Main ramp the number of people +that were in the area on the Main ramp? + +Mr. STEVENSON. [Marking] Well, it is purely a guess. I would say 40 to +50, in that area. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can recapitulate it. + +On the Main ramp there were between 40 and 50 newspeople standing +abreast? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Not news--police and all. + +Mr. HUBERT. And news people standing abreast is roughly five to six to +seven to eight, perhaps? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. In this other area which you have marked with a rough +semicircle, there were between 50 and 60 people? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That is an estimate, estimate on it; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you came down and observed the moving of the +vehicle driven by Dhority, were those people in the ramp and basement +area already located there? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; they were. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security arrangements had been made with +respect to checking the presence of those people? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; the same security arrangement we had used all +the way. No one was to be permitted into the basement without being +a bona fide member of the press or news media, and to our knowledge, +or to my knowledge, there was no one down there except members of the +press or police officers, or officers from some department, a Federal +officer or sheriff's office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any instructions that had been given with +reference to checking these people for identification? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Only what was given to them on the third floor. Now, I +don't know what instructions Captain Talbert had given the men, but +he told me he had instructed that no one would be permitted in there +unless they had a press pass and was officially connected with the news +media. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you how that would be ascertained? + +Mr. STEVENSON. By the officers checking them and checking his +credentials. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you had gone there earlier on the occasion of about +9:45, I believe it was, when you and Batchelor went to get coffee? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That was Chief Lumpkin and I drank the coffee, Mr. +Hubert. + +Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, I am thinking about the last time that you were +there prior to your going down finally, or to put it another way, the +second to the last time you were down? + +Mr. STEVENSON. The next to the last time was after I drank the coffee, +Chief Batchelor and I went down there. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time was it then? + +Mr. STEVENSON. About the best I recollect, around 10:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now were these news media people in those areas at that +time? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Not on the Main Street or north ramp, not at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they were? + +Mr. STEVENSON. They were back in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, back in the basement area? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; in the basement area. + +Mr. HUBERT. So at that time you think there were approximately, well, +twice the number of people that you have since described as were in the +Main ramp and the basement area, roughly about a hundred people? + +Mr. STEVENSON. At that time there might not have been, because that was +some 40 or 50 minutes before the prisoner was transferred. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there people upstairs or elsewhere? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Some of them were on the third floor. Some of them were +on the first floor. Now just where they all were, Mr. Hubert, prior to +the time the transfer was actually made, I don't know, but about 10:30, +I would say that there was not that many down there at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you said the first floor, you meant the first floor of +the police and courts--of the police department? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Of the police and courts building; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have already testified concerning the relation of what +you call the courts? + +Mr. STEVENSON. The police and courts building. + +Mr. HUBERT. To the municipal building or the city hall? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether there was any +security as to the entrance to the city hall's first floor? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, only what Captain Talbert advised me, that they did +have it sealed off and had the elevators stopped on the first floor and +nothing to come below the first floor of the city hall proper. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know about what entrances do exist to the city hall +municipal building's first floor? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +There is an entrance off of Main Street. There is an entrance off of +Commerce Street. There is also an entrance into what we call a freight +elevator off the alley on the east side which the alley runs between +Commerce and Main and right up to the east side of the city hall. + +To my knowledge, those are the three entrances to the city hall proper +other than from the basement and the elevators up from the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Isn't there a corridor, however, that leads from the first +floor of the city hall to the first floor of the police department? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security there was with respect to that +corridor? + +Mr. STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, Mr. Hubert, I don't know other than +he did have, Captain Talbert said he had men on the first floor of the +police and courts building and I believe that you will find a steel +gate that closes off the police and courts building from the municipal +building. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether that gate was closed? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I do not. I did not inspect that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the entrance to the first floor of the +municipal building on Main and Commerce were locked or not locked? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I did not inspect them; no, sir. I do not know of my own +knowledge, but usually on a Sunday, those doors are locked. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that statement true about the door on the alley? + +Mr. STEVENSON. To my knowledge, only the maintenance crews have keys. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now were any policemen assigned to any of those three +entrances from the outside into the first floor of the municipal +building? To wit, Main Street entrance, Commerce Street entrance, and +the service door on the alley? + +Mr. STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, I don't know whether Captain +Talbert told me that he had security on the outside of the doors of the +city hall and the municipal building, but I did not go out and check +those to see. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware then--that is to say, on November 24th, of +the position of two reserve officers called Brock and Worley? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Not by name; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that there were two reserve officers in the +basement area, one of them near the elevators and one of them near +the---- + +Mr. STEVENSON. This is a driveway into the parking area. + +Mr. HUBERT. The driveway into the parking area proper? + +Mr. STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, no, sir; I don't. I did not go back +to the elevators over here to check on that. My officers were in this +general area in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you are indicating from the intersection of +the jail corridor and the ramp at the basement? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Directly out in front of the jail office entrance, and +in this area in here, and up this way and back here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the removal of those two men +from the positions indicated? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you observe the shooting? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I did not witness the shooting. If I may +explain that, when Mr. Dhority backed the car that was to carry Lee +Harvey Oswald to the county jail, then, as I have stated before, I +stepped to the west side of it and was right about the front hinge of +the door. I heard someone remark "They are coming out." + +I looked around and observed Captain Fritz coming right through here. + +Mr. HUBERT. From the jail corridor? + +Mr. STEVENSON. From the jail corridor. When I saw him, I immediately +directed my attention to the overall basement area of our security +setup to observe anything that went on, and they had not taken but +a few steps and had not reached the back of the car when I heard a +shot, and immediately again I directed by attention to the prisoner +and observed a group of officers, I would say, some 8 or 10, subduing +someone. + +And as I stepped back here, I saw Detective Graves who had been with +Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "stepped back"---- + +Mr. STEVENSON. Back to where the shooting had taken place, I saw him +rise from the crowd with a gun in his hand still holding it around the +cylinder. + +Ruby was picked up and taken into the jail office, who I afterwards +learned was Ruby, and Oswald was also carried into the jail office. +Lieutenant Wiggins instructed an ambulance to be called. + +I then stepped back out of the jail. + +When the shooting took place, the officers on the Main Street ramp, +this one up here---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That would be Mr. Vaughn? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I don't know that he was one that pulled his gun, but +there were several reserve officers and other officers down in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is on the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I was told by, I believe it was, Captain Jones, that the +officers up there had their guns out. And I stepped back out of the +jail office after seeing that Ruby and Oswald had been taken care of. + +The north ramp was quiet, but the officers were having difficulty with +people. + +Mr. HUBERT. On the Commerce Street ramp? + +Mr. STEVENSON. At the top of the Commerce Street ramp, or near the top. + +I stepped back up here and told those officers that the man that did +the shooting was in custody and there was no more trouble. Ruby was +taken upstairs and the ambulance picked up Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go up with Ruby yourself? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No; Captain King, Detective Archer, and I believe +McMillon went up with Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean with Ruby? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I mean with Ruby, pardon me. With Ruby up to the jail +office. + +Captain King advised me when I came back down that they had stripped +Ruby of his clothing, searched him to see that he had nothing on him +with which he could harm himself or harm anyone else, and in about, oh, +I would say possibly 10 minutes after he was taken upstairs, Secret +Service Agent Forrest Sorrels did go up and talk with him, and Sergeant +Dean, I believe it was, took him up there. + +Now this was told to me by Sergeant Dean, that Mr. Sorrels did request +to go up and talk to him, and he did take him up there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe Ruby before he was stripped of his clothing? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I observed him in the jail office after he had been +picked up, after he had shot Oswald. + +He had been picked up from just outside the jail office door near the +ramp and was taken into the jail office, and he was standing in the +jail office with the detectives holding him, when I walked in there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any kind of press pass on his person? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Ruby prior to that time? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I had never seen him before, as far as I know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him in the crowd? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby say anything in your presence that you yourself +heard? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Not that I heard myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any orders concerning the search of Ruby's +automobile? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what they were, please? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I don't recall who contacted me or called me and told +me where his car was on the parking station near the Western Union, +advising me that he had a dog in the car, a dog of some kind. + +I contacted my Automobile Theft Bureau, which handles and is +responsible for all impounded cars, and asked Lieutenant Smart to go up +and get the car. + +He took someone with him, I don't recall who, to impound the +automobile, search it, and take everything out of it that he could find. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now you did not get your information about the location of +the car from Ruby himself? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you think you got it from someone whose name you don't +know or now remember? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I don't recall who it was. It is possible someone who +had talked to Ruby, but now I can't say about that because I just +don't recall who it was that advised me that his car was up there at +the Western Union, but I did receive the information and directed +Lieutenant Smart to get the car and search it thoroughly, impound it, +and have the pound take the dog. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that when you did get the information about Ruby's car, +you also got the information that there was a dog in it? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who was assigned to control traffic at the +corner of Main and Pearl? That is, by the Western Union Office? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or Main and Harwood? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have made a statement, I think, to the FBI, have +you not, sir? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I was interviewed by the FBI. + +Mr. HUBERT. I will hand you a document that I am going to mark now for +identification as follows: Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, an Exhibit +5051, Deposition of Chief M. W. Stevenson. I am signing my name, and I +would like you to read it, sir. + +Mr. STEVENSON. (Reads.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Stevenson, you are signing it. + +Do I take it by that, that that statement is correct, so far as you +know? + +At least that there are no errors in it? + +Mr. STEVENSON. As far as I can see, there are no errors. Only one thing +on this, unless I missed it right here, this does not say anything of +the change of plan. + +Mr. HUBERT. No? + +Mr. STEVENSON. It sure doesn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, it just speaks for itself. But apparently you called +to our attention an omission from that statement which has been covered +by a part of this deposition, is that correct? + +Mr. STEVENSON. This was taken on the 25th. I guess that is right. Isn't +that the date here? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; the 25th is correct. + +Mr. STEVENSON. I don't understand why that part was omitted, but I was +interviewed, and there is nothing in here, as far as I am concerned, +that is wrong, to my knowledge, with the exception of that omission of +the change in method, of transfer. + +Mr. HUBERT. There may be other things also in your deposition that do +not appear in that document which we have marked as Exhibit 5051. + +Now I show you another document which I have marked "Dallas, Tex., +March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5052, Deposition of M. W. Stevenson," and +I have signed it with my own name. It is a part of the Commission +Document 81-A, Page 95-A, and ask you, sir, if that is a correct +statement of your interview with Captain Sawyer? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir; it is. I might add on this one, this was to +find out about our security, the reason this one was put out, and that +is the reason they didn't go any further. You want me to sign this? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. As I understand you, that is correct, so far as it +goes? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you care to state for the record, Chief Stevenson, +what, in your opinion, was the cause of the breakdown of security which +resulted in the death of Oswald? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Mr. Hubert, I don't know whether I can tell you the +cause or not, but there is no doubt we had a breakdown. And if our +investigation is right, it was at the Main Street ramp into the +basement through which Ruby claimed that he walked down that ramp while +this officer had his back turned. And our investigation showed that he +did leave the Western Union Office some 4 or 4-1/2 minutes prior to the +shooting. + +Our breakdown, although this is my opinion, it was unintentional on the +part of Officer Vaughn, in my opinion, he did come down that ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you would like to say, sir, +concerning any part of this matter whatsoever? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Mr. Hubert, I don't recall a thing that I haven't +attempted to cover. However, if there is anything that I have not +covered, I will be glad to attempt to or to answer any questions that +you might think pertinent to it, and anything that I have failed to +cover has been unintentional, I assure you. + +Mr. HUBERT. I simply want to give you an opportunity now to say +anything else that you might want to say, realizing, of course, that +there may be other things which don't come to your mind at the moment, +but I would like you to think about it and tell us if there is anything +at all that has not appeared in any statement you have made or in any +part of this deposition. + +Mr. STEVENSON. The only thing that I could say that comes to my mind +at the present is, up until Oswald was killed in the basement, we felt +like we had built a good case on Oswald as the slayer of President +Kennedy, and we felt we had done a good job on the arrest and the +accumulation of the evidence. + +We just had a breakdown. We were let down unintentionally, in my +opinion, from the investigation, by one officer that permitted Ruby to +get into the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any other statement, Mr. Stevenson, other +than those that you have identified as Exhibits 5051 and 5052? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge that I recall, other than the +overall chronological report that we made to the chief of police +regarding the entire operation and plan for the visit of the President +all the way through until Oswald was slain by Ruby in the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that a joint report? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell us who prepared that. + +Mr. STEVENSON. It was Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, myself, Chief +Fisher, Chief Lunday, Captain Souter, and all of the supervisors who +had a definite responsibility in preparing and carrying out the plans +for the President's visit to our city on November the 22d. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that a written report? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a copy of that, sir? + +Mr. STEVENSON. It's in this. I believe I have it. (Looking.) + +It isn't in there, sir. I believe that is the entire report. + +(Handing papers to Mr. Hubert.) + +I don't think it would be in there. That is our security investigation +report, Mr. Hubert. You will find that that is signed by Chief +Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, and myself. + +All of the officers did not sign it. We merely got their version, their +reports and things and incorporated them in one chronological report. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have, Mr. Stevenson, handed me a document consisting of +34 numbered pages, the first page apparently being unnumbered, dated +November 30, 1963, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police, +and bearing on page 34, the typed names of Charles Batchelor, George +Lumpkin, and M. W. Stevenson. + +You have also stated to me that this copy was available to the +Commission. + +I am therefore marking it as follows: + +"Dallas, Tex., March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5053, Deposition of M. W. +Stevenson." I am signing it with my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr. + +I am going to ask you to sign your name under mine, and I am +initialling myself, each one of the pages, and I would appreciate it, +if you would also initial each one of the pages. + +I am placing my initials on each one of the pages in the lower +right-hand corner of each page. + +Mr. STEVENSON. (Initials each page.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Stevenson, I have now signed the first page under +my signature, that being the unnumbered page. I ask you if you have +checked the sequence of pages thereafter and find that they run in +perfect sequence 1 through 34, page 34, being the last page? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I have. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have also placed your initials on each one of those +pages in the lower right-hand corner below my signature, is that +correct? + +Mr. STEVENSON. I have. + +Mr. HUBERT. The original of this was signed by you, sir? + +Mr. STEVENSON. By Chief Batchelor, Chief Lumpkin, and myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you delivered that to Chief Curry? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed by any of the Commission +staff prior to the taking of this deposition? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me correct you. You were interviewed by me just +before the beginning of this deposition? + +Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I was. I answered too quick then. + +Mr. HUBERT. That interview took place this afternoon for about an hour +and a half, I think, immediately preceding the time that we started to +take the deposition? + +Mr. STEVENSON. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have not been interviewed by any other member of the +Commission staff except that interview with me? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me whether you perceive any inconsistency +between the deposition you have given and the interview that I +conducted with you prior to the taking of the deposition? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't believe I can see any inconsistency. + +I did do this at your request, or I say with your permission I looked +over some of my notes before the taking of this, and the only thing +that I think was any change made was in answer to Captain Talbert's +question as to what the route of transfer would be. + +I think when I discussed it with you prior to the taking of this +deposition, I told you that we told him we thought it would go down +Elm. When I reviewed my notes, it was Main Street that we had told him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now do you know of any other material information that was +covered in the interview that preceded this deposition which has not +been developed during the deposition? + +Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not that I recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all unless you have anything else. + +Mr. STEVENSON. I don't recall a thing else, Mr. Hubert. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CAPT. CECIL E. TALBERT + +The testimony of Capt. Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 7:30 p.m., on +March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, +Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Cecil T. Talbert, patrol +division, Dallas Police Department. + +My name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr.; I am a member of the advisory staff of +the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination +of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, +dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the +rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the +Executive order and the joint resolutions, I have been authorized +to take a sworn deposition from you, Captain Talbert. I will state +to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is +to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry +tonight is to to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald +and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of +the Commission. Now, Captain Talbert, you have appeared here tonight by +virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of +the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted +by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior +to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a +witness may waive the 3-day notice in writing. Are you willing to waive +that notice? + +Captain TALBERT. I'd like to waive it, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Captain TALBERT. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name? + +Captain TALBERT. Cecil Earl Talbert. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Captain TALBERT. I am 44. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? + +Captain TALBERT. 1211 Toltec, Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation, sir? + +Captain TALBERT. Police department. Captain of patrol division. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the police department? + +Captain TALBERT. Seventeen years. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of captain? + +Captain TALBERT. You will have to forgive me just a minute. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, just approximately is all right. + +Captain TALBERT. January 26, 1960. + +Mr. HUBERT. What are your duties and responsibilities on the Dallas +Police Force? + +Captain TALBERT. I have a patrol platoon. Three captains assigned to +the patrol division. Each has a platoon. We rotate around the clock and +while on duty would have the patrol function. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the patrol function throughout the city. + +Captain TALBERT. Throughout the city; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? + +Captain TALBERT. Chief Fisher; N. T. Fisher. + +Mr. HUBERT. And he is head of the patrol division in general? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Three captains under him? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who are the other captains? + +Captain TALBERT. J. M. Souter relieves me, and Capt. William Frazier, +who relieves Souter. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you in that same position with the same duties and +responsibilities on the 24th of November 1963? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d of November 1963? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What hours did you serve then? + +Captain TALBERT. Seven to three. + +Mr. HUBERT. 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go off duty at 3 p.m. on the 23d? + +Captain TALBERT. Close to that, I mean close to that time; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the time you went off duty about 3 p.m. on the 23d of +November, had you been informed of any plans for a transfer of Oswald +to the county jail? + +Captain TALBERT. Not by police supervisors. I had heard the information +the chief had given the news media who had insisted on setting up their +equipment in our jail office, or adjacent to the jail office, and he +insisted that they not set it up there, and that they would be in the +general public way, and only that they could report after 10 o'clock on +the next day. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you didn't hear that from the chief himself? + +Captain TALBERT. Not from the chief. Only--that is hearsay. + +Mr. HUBERT. You obtained from the radio or television or newspapers? + +Captain TALBERT. Possibly radio and newspapers, yes, sir. You might +know we were attentive to all news media at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, what time, then, did you go on duty on the 24th? + +Captain TALBERT. The morning of the 24th I reported when--I gave my +time of duty as 7 to 3. Actually, we report about an hour early so that +we can prepare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have +to make. So, at approximately 6 o'clock, I reported to our office and +relieved Captain Frazier. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time that you relieved Captain Frazier, did he +convey any information to you? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said? + +Captain TALBERT. Said he had a communication with Sheriff Decker and +Mr. Newsom, with the FBI, and both were anxious to transfer Oswald at +the time. Transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had +been unable to contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. That he +couldn't call him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what time he had received that information? + +Captain TALBERT. He did; but I don't recall what time, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you of any security plans that had been made to +transfer Oswald? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you of any security plans that should be made, +or had been ordered? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he then go off duty? I am talking about Captain Frazier +now. + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I relieved him and he went off duty. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then with reference to the transfer? + +Captain TALBERT. Continued his efforts to contact the chief +through--going through the telephone exchange. I wanted to contact him +by telephone. He had contacted Captain Fritz with the information from +both Mr. Newsom and the sheriff, and Captain Fritz said he couldn't +transfer him until the chief authorized it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Fritz yourself? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; that was conveyed to me by Captain Frazier +before he left. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. + +Captain TALBERT. And I got the telephone company to put a buzzer on the +chief's line, and there is no response, and they have something that is +louder than a buzzer. I can't recall the term they use, but you have +to get permission from the chief operator to utilize that. I had that +put on the chief's line, and still no response. Obviously the line was +defective, so, I had a squad sent to the chief's home with the request +that he call me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he call you? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. From his home? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was his phone out of order? + +Captain TALBERT. I don't know, sir, but by all appearances, it was out +of order. I think that latter item I was speaking of was around the +entire neighborhood, almost. It is quite loud, even though a phone may +be off the hook. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to the chief? + +Captain TALBERT. I repeated the conversation that Frazier had told me +that the sheriff had told him, and also Mr. Newsom had told him about +two calls received by the FBI office during the night. Both by men +speaking in a calm voice and both conveyed the same message that before +Oswald reached the county jail "A hundred of us will see that he is +dead." And the request by Sheriff Decker, and Mr. Newsom, that he be +transferred immediately. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was your understanding that Newsom had received a +message twice? + +Captain TALBERT. His office. Not Mr. Newsom personally. His office. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. Do you know whether any such message had also been +received by the sheriff's office independently? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you convey that information? + +Captain TALBERT. It was approximately 6:30, my conversation with Chief +Curry. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions? + +Captain TALBERT. He said if I would call the sheriff and Mr. Newsom, +tell them that he would be in his office between 8 and 9, and he would +contact them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that, what did you occupy yourself with? + +Captain TALBERT. The usual duty of getting my platoon on duty and +balancing the detail. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything looking toward the ultimate transfer of +Oswald? + +Captain TALBERT. Not at that time; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you begin to do anything with reference to the +transfer? + +Captain TALBERT. Approximately 9 a.m. Traffic was building up rather +heavy on the downtown streets. Primarily on Commerce, people going by +the intersection of Commerce and Houston and the--viewing the Book +Depository Building, and we had a few people gathering on Commerce +Street side of the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them gathering on the Main Street side? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why? + +Captain TALBERT. Evidently the people who were gathering realized that +our exit side was Commerce and our entrance side was Main. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fact? + +Captain TALBERT. That is a fact. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say internally, your traffic goes from Main to +Commerce, and goes no other way? + +Captain TALBERT. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is a one-way ramp? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; all of our vehicles enter on Main Street and +exit on Commerce Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, there is no physical reason why it couldn't be +the opposite? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; there is. Commerce is one way, and makes it +more difficult to--Oh, I'm sorry. There is no physical reason. + +Mr. HUBERT. No. That's all right. You have explained it. You had +misunderstood what I meant when I said, "physical." + +Captain TALBERT. Sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. Actually, it is an internal rule, that is, a normal rule +because of the fact that Commerce is a one-way street. + +Captain TALBERT. The accessibility to the street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Main is a two-way street? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did Chief Curry come in? + +Captain TALBERT. I don't know, sir. I didn't see him all day. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him all day on the 24th? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. I mean I don't recall having seen him. I +didn't converse with him. If I saw him I didn't converse with him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any action about looking to the movement or +transfer and the security thereof, of Oswald? + +Captain TALBERT. That is a very broad statement and can we narrow it +down into my actions taken of any probable disturbance that we might +have around the city hall? + +Mr. HUBERT. Just tell us what you did. + +Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. At 9, or about, Lieutenant Pierce, +that is Sam Pierce. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce? + +Captain TALBERT. Sam. + +Mr. HUBERT. Sam Pierce? + +Captain TALBERT. Rio Sam Pierce. R. S. Pierce. [spelling] R-i-o, just +like the river. Rio Sam Pierce is my central area lieutenant, and I +talked the situation over with him about the traffic problem, and the +people that were giving the appearance of going to start gathering on +the Commerce Street side, and what we should do about the possible +security around the city hall. It would have to alleviate having to +call the squads in over the dispatcher. + +At the time, we were working on a Sunday detail, which is one of our +smallest. Sunday is a less active day, and we have fewer people working +on Sunday, that is, than we do any other. That is the day we try to get +most of our--not "most," I'm sorry, that is a poor term. We cut our +detail down on Sunday due to the fact that police activity is light. +So, I talked it over with him about what we should do about the method +of security of the area, and finally decided that if--for him to pull +three squads from each of the three substations, and four squads out +of the central station, and to pick two-men squads where possible so +that we could build up the total number of men that we had as quick as +possible. + +This second platoon, the day platoon, works primarily one-man squads, +and our two-man squads are trainee squads. The trainees work with an +older officer and create a two-man squad there. Could you leave this +off just a moment? That is something---- + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; then, you decided to set up some system of +security for the police department building? + +Captain TALBERT. I further told Lieutenant Pierce to have the basement +cleared of all personnel. Have them searched. Thorough search, and +secure it, letting only the authorized news media and police officers +into the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. What---- + +Captain TALBERT. The basement area that---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What system of authorizing newsmen was in use? + +Captain TALBERT. Using their press identification. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had that been issued specially? + +Captain TALBERT. That is the general order, 81, I believe that +is the number of it. I don't know whether you want to include +that in here or not. I believe general order 81, is that we would +utilize--this is a long-standing--that we will utilize the normal press +identification to permit news media into scenes of incident areas. +The amateurs, bystanders, were kept out because they don't have those +identification---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that an identification commonly known to police +personnel? + +Captain TALBERT. They scrutinize it. No, sir; each could utilize these +different types, but you have to scrutinize their identification. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you say that you permit these persons to enter, but +civilians without news identification could not enter? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was in effect that day? + +Captain TALBERT. I utilized it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean, the order was in effect? + +Captain TALBERT. It had not been revoked. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you utilized it? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it was determined that when you were clearing +out the basement, you would clear out all persons who were not police +officers or news media properly identified? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell me why you did that as to the basement? + +Captain TALBERT. The basement--I am using a very loose term in +"basement," I meant, and did convey to Lieutenant Pierce, "the area," +in which Oswald would be--if he was transferred, and I used that term, +"if he was transferred," I didn't know that he would be. Although, our +basement was becoming cluttered with newsmen at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told by anyone that Oswald would be removed +from the upper story of the building by use of the jail elevators to +the jail office, and from the jail office through the jail corridor +into the basement ramps. + +Captain TALBERT. At that time; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. But---- + +Captain TALBERT. But, of my own knowledge that is the only way he could +be removed to a car unless he went through another floor and out on the +street. That is the way you go in the normal police building area. + +Mr. HUBERT. And do you mean that the normal method for handling would +be one where he would be brought to the elevator to the jail office, +and into the basement? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you state just what you did by way of clearing +the basement area? + +Captain TALBERT. Lieutenant Pierce gave the assignment to Sergeant +Dean, and in turn to Sergeant Putnam to carry out, and in various +stages of the searching of the basement I think he checked it himself, +at approximately 10 o'clock, and I gave, by the way, the initial +instructions to bring those squads in. I told them to disperse their +cars, park them on the street, but disperse them. Not have them grouped +up, and to report to my office by at least 9:30, and he did have that +accomplished, and he gave the instructions to clear the area and search +it to Sergeant Dean, who got Sergeant Putnam to assist him in it. About +10 o'clock, I went down to check and see how he had progressed at that +time. They had checked the news media, they were set up in the jail +office. The jail office proper. They had cameramen, cameras, reporters +on top of the booking desk, on top of everything available. The news +media was taking over the jail office rather heavily, and insisted the +chief had given them permission to do so. That was about 10. I went +into the basement area and Sergeant Putnam gave me a lengthy rundown, +step by step, on what he had done, or had done--see what I mean +about my English?--and had accomplished in clearing that area, and I +personally checked all the doors to the several rooms that led from the +parking area to see that they were locked. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you specify for the record what doors you did check? + +Captain TALBERT. Starting in around on the side of the ramp, janitor's +room. Could you hold it a minute and let me see if I can identify it? + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I think we'll get on the record. + +Captain TALBERT. Shall we just say "checked the painters' room"? + +Mr. HUBERT. No; I want to get more particular points than that. Now, +since you are about to describe your activities with reference to +a definite area, I want to show you a map or chart of the basement +and jail office area, and in order that we may properly use it in +connection with your testimony, it is necessary for me to identify +it. Therefore, I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March the 24th, 1964. +Exhibit 5070, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my +name to it, and for the purposes of identification, I'll ask you to +sign your name just below mine. Now, you say that you, yourself made a +personal check of what is shown on this Exhibit 5070, as the parking +area? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Wait. Where did you begin? Right in here? + +Captain TALBERT. Right about here, to here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking with a numeral, "1" in a circle, a point +that you have indicated to me as the starting point of your inspection +tour, and exactly just what did you do there? + +Captain TALBERT. Well, that's---- + +Mr. HUBERT. And then I am going to ask you to just simply draw a line +as to the general portion that you want, and whenever you stopped, we +will mark the stop with No. "2, 3 and so forth", and just use this map +and mark it in that way, keeping in mind that you must speak in such a +way that a person who reads this later on may be able to understand the +movements. Now, you are starting at a point that is marked No. "1" in a +circle? + +Captain TALBERT. I checked the door No. "1", which is the painters' +room to see that it was properly locked. I proceeded to the doctor's +room, and I checked it. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you are marking that---- + +Captain TALBERT. That is "2." + +Mr. HUBERT. "2" in a circle? + +Captain TALBERT. I asked what has been done about the doctor's +services. Sergeant Putnam told me he had moved that doctor out of that +room and into the police locker room. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you check those doors? + +Captain TALBERT. Checked the door to see that it was locked, and it +was; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was locked from the outside? Could somebody in there +have come in? + +Captain TALBERT. There should have been no one in there, because there +is no entrance to it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you check in the doctor's room? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I had no key to get in. The doctor and +the porter would have the key, but I didn't have. I went to this +[indicating]. This is the stairway, and this--there is another--there +is another stairway coming in here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. From point "2"? + +Captain TALBERT. Actually, this is--can you stop? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Captain TALBERT. I went to point "3" and tried the other door which was +locked externally. Went to point "4"---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave point "3," did you know whether that door +was locked from the other side? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that a person in the stairwell---- + +Captain TALBERT. That is not the stairwell, sir, that is the second +door of the first aid station. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, the second door of the first aid station? + +Captain TALBERT. "3" it is the second door of the first aid station. +"4" to the stairwell leading downstairs to a subbasement, engineroom, +and leading from the first floor down to the basement area is a fire +escape type--that door was secured from the outside. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anybody on the inside of that door could +have come from the stairwell into the basement? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; it has--that particular door, I have since +learned--I didn't know it at that time, but I have since learned that +that particular door has a fire escape type latch. That bar-type latch, +and I did check and find that the first floor--not the basement, but +the first floor of the city hall had its interior door, both on the +Commerce Street, Main Street, and the hallway locked. It is a procedure +that they use over the weekend, and after 6 p.m., in the afternoon, +those doors are locked, so, anyone not in the building at the time +wouldn't have had access to this unless someone unlocked it for them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you check those entrances at the first floor of the +municipal building on the 24th? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did you do that? + +Captain TALBERT. As I recall, just from the--this particular time after +finishing this search, I went to the sidewalk area on Commerce, and +into the entrance that is left open for payment of water bills and the +interior door there was secure and locked. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, then a person could not get into the first floor of the +city hall through that door on Commerce Street? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; and in further checking around the building +I went through the police courts building and in checking the Main +Street door and then, in turn, checked the Main Street entrance, and it +was locked. + +Mr. HUBERT. Main Street entrance to the municipal building? + +Captain TALBERT. To the municipal building. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it was locked? + +Captain TALBERT. And it was locked; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you check the several entrances on the alleyway +which runs from Main to about halfway up the block and makes an L-turn +and then runs to Pearl? + +Captain TALBERT. I did not check that entrance, because the thing is +locked any time after 6, and on the weekends. We can't enter that way. +Matter of fact, we have orders not to enter that way at anytime, but +sometimes we, in parking, we find it convenient to enter through that +elevator and the service elevator from that entrance, and we always +find it locked. We have to get a porter's attention by banging on the +door to get it unlocked. + +Mr. HUBERT. Since we are on that subject, how would you go through that +service entrance on the alleyway into the first floor of the municipal +building? + +Captain TALBERT. The service entrance has some side doors leading off +of it. I don't know whether they are broom closets, or go into rooms +or what, but into the service elevator, both sides of the elevator has +operable doors. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is--so call it the Harwood side on the elevator, and +the Pearl Street side. + +Captain TALBERT. This is going to the Central Expressway over here +[indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Captain TALBERT. And, so, the--the expressway side and the Harwood +Street side has doors that do open. Both sides of that elevator have +doors that would open, and the operator could open either one of them, +and you can come in from the entrance and exit from this Harwood Street +side. Enter from the expressway side and exit from the Harwood Street +side. + +Mr. HUBERT. If it were possible for a person to gain entrance through +the service entrance into the first floor of the municipal building by +use of the service elevator, that is to say, by walking through both of +the doors of the elevator, he could then get into the stairwell of the +fire escape on the first floor, could he not? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And by walking down to the basement level at the point---- + +Captain TALBERT. Designated "4"? + +Mr. HUBERT. Designated "4," he could get into the basement area in that +way. + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; but we had an operator on the service +elevator with instructions not to allow anyone to basement, and he +was--allowed no one to come in. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that person was? + +Captain TALBERT. I believe his name is Mitchell, sir, to the best of my +memory, is his name. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the police department? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; he is a porter, a colored porter who works +within the city hall building, itself. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to that man? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell him? + +Captain TALBERT. At the time, I told him to take his elevator up on +the first floor. I put the parking attendant on that elevator, or +instructed the parking attendant to get on that elevator and go up to +the first floor, and for the parking attendant to maintain a vigil +lookout on this elevator marked Nos. "1" and "2" here, which will be +"5" and "6" in my route. I told him to see that no one came nearby +those elevators, and told the operator of the service elevator to stay +on it, and not bring anyone to the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was the parking attendant? + +Captain TALBERT. I'm going to have to utilize his nickname, and it is +rather far-afield. I should know his name. His nickname is "King," it +is one we have used for quite some time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the police department? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; he is a colored parking attendant who works +for the municipal garage. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he carried out your orders, Captain +Talbert? + +Captain TALBERT. To my knowledge, he did. I don't know that he did, but +to my knowledge, he did. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't know to the contrary then? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you continue, then, your security search which +we had left off, I think, at a point marked "4"? + +Captain TALBERT. I went from point "4," the elevator--the stairwell, to +the elevator. The first service elevator to the building on the--not +service elevator, delete that, young lady--first elevator in the +building marked "1", here, but will be marked "5" in this route. And +that door was closed. Went to the next elevator which was immediately +adjacent to the first one marked "6," that door was closed, indicating +the elevator was not on that floor. These are automatic elevators and +the doors would be open if it was. Then went to the service elevator, +and had the foregoing conversation with the operator and the parking +attendant. That is marked No. "7." + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, just continue your search? + +Captain TALBERT. From that area, or in that immediate area I had +another discussion with Sergeant Putnam and asked him about the +engineroom elevator, this elevator being on the extreme corner of the +parking area on Commerce Street, next to the ramp. This elevator comes +from the engineroom to the parking area only, and doesn't go to the +first floor. Anyone entering through that elevator would have to be in +the engineroom, which is a subbasement, to enter into this basement. +That is the only place it goes. One floor. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you have marked that how? + +Captain TALBERT. Marked that "8." Sergeant Putnam had placed a reserve +officer at that point to---- + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, were any other reserve officers placed in +the parking area, to your knowledge, or any other officers for that +matter? + +Captain TALBERT. May I mark on---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Surely. + +Captain TALBERT. A reserve officer whose name I do not recall, was +placed at a point marked "9," with the instructions not to permit +anyone to enter the parking area from the elevators or stairwell. But +a reserve officer was placed in the point marked "8." We--I think +we have that in the deposition now. Reserve officers were, at that +time, brought forward when I asked if the conduits had been searched, +the top of the conduits, and--the air-conditioning conduits, if they +had been searched. They brought the two reserve officers forward who +had the filthiest uniforms. It was quite obvious that they had been +crawling around on top of them. They had searched them, and I took +their condition to state that their search had been thorough and the +fact that Sergeants Putnam and Dean told me that they had covered +each one, that the engines, engine compartments, the trucks as well +as the vehicles parked in the basement had been searched for possible +hiding places, and all of this was accomplished. After the search was +accomplished, after officers were placed in the adjacent ramps on the +Commerce Street side, on the Main Street side, and from the lobby of +the police building marked "10," lobby of the police building into the +area in front of the jail office leading into the ramp area--may I mark +the places where the officers were now? The reserve officers--we are +getting a--can I hold it for a minute? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Captain TALBERT. All right, now, I will go ahead and mark the area +where we had each---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you marked "10," that you had an officer there. + +Captain TALBERT. I had an officer and--a reserve officer was at "11." +Two detectives were--Lowery and Beaty--Beaty and Lowery. "12" and "13" +most of this period. Number "14" on the Main Street entrance to the +police ramp was Vaughn, R. E. Vaughn, and number "15" and "16" were +Patrolman Jez and Patrolman Patterson. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you ever order the reserve officer at the point +"9" removed? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that he had been? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; at 11 o'clock, when the detail was made up to +put traffic men on Elm Street, it was gathered in that area, and that +man was in place at that time, at 11. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that? + +Captain TALBERT. If he was moved after 11 I don't know who moved him or +where he went, but the reserve officer "9" was in place at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what his name was? + +Captain TALBERT. I believe Brock is going to be his name, but I am not +sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think it is Brock. Now, then, you mentioned something +about drawing off persons to patrol the intersection of Elm Street? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us something about that, please? + +Captain TALBERT. We had kept as many officers out of the basement area +as possible to keep from adding to the confusion of the search so we +could make a systematic search, and I had retained all of the excess +officers, and, as I recall, numbered about 13 regular police officers +in my office and the reserve officers, and excesses were retained in +an assembly room which would be behind the jail office, and after +about 11--let's back up and make that about 10:45--in that vicinity, +Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin contacted me about the route of the +proposed transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, and they asked--correction--I +asked if we were going to use marked cars or plain cars, or if we were +going to utilize sirens to stop traffic at intersections? + +Chief Stevenson said he didn't want any attention attracted to the +transfer that wasn't already attracted to it, and asked if I had enough +personnel to put in the intersection of Elm Street. First he said Main +Street. The first route planned was Main, and it was changed to Elm +before I could so disperse the personnel, so, actually, we utilized Elm +all through this. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just as it was? + +Captain TALBERT. And they said first Main and then before--after I +had removed the men from my office to the ramp--not the ramp area, +but the parking area and told Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Steele to +place them on each intersection to stop traffic for the lights as the +people making the transfer approached them. Found then that it was to +be Elm Street instead of Main, that it was to be Elm rather than Main +and the traffic could go--the reason being that they could swing off +of Elm into Houston, directly into the prisoner loading area of the +sheriff's office, and those 13 men were placed by Sergeant Steele at +each intersection. He didn't have enough. I instructed him that he +obtain any additional men he might need from the captain who was in the +area of the county jail, and he later called me by phone and told me +of the traffic conditions down there, and I had an estimate, I don't +recall whether from him or some other officer of the approximate number +of people in that area, said around 600 or so gathered up around the +county jail; so I instructed Steele to have each one of the men fall in +behind or follow fairly closely behind the conveying vehicle so they +would be available for any trouble that might develop around the county +jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever told by anyone of the plans of the transfer? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is, the ultimate plan or the---- + +Captain TALBERT. Well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Any sequence of plans? + +Captain TALBERT. After the plans had been instituted, Lieutenant +Pierce, who I had sent to the homicide bureau previously to see if we +could be of any assistance, or see if he could do anything--I didn't +see him enter the basement, but as he pulled up onto the ramp--or in an +effort to enter the ramp, he stopped his vehicle and called me over and +asked me to get in his car. I opened the door, got in on the right-hand +side of his car and he told me my--I omitted something, I believe, +about this armored car, haven't I? Do you want that in there? + +Mr. HUBERT. We'll come back to it. + +Captain TALBERT. All right. He told me that he had been instructed to +take a car out and get in front of the armored car which was backed +into the ramp on the Commerce Street side and to lead the armored +car. He was to be the lead vehicle and the armored car, it would go +up northbound on Central to Elm, west on Elm and swing in off of Elm +on to Houston Street. That two plain cars would pull up behind of the +armored car. The prisoner would actually be in the last plain car, and +the first plain car would be full of armed homicide officers, and it +would cut off on Main Street, west. It would leave the city hall with +the cavalcade, and when it hit Main Street the two plain cars with +the homicide officers in them with the prisoner would make a left and +go west and the armored car and the lead vehicle there would continue +to Elm and then west. The two vehicles, or rather the two groups of +vehicles would be paralleling each other. One on Main, and one on Elm. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the plans were with reference to the +controlling of traffic on Main Street on which the prisoner was +actually going to be transferred? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; that was the first information I had is the +fact that the prisoner would not be in the armored car. Up until that +point, I assumed he would be in the armored car. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, at that point, it became apparent that he was not +going to be in the armored car? + +Captain TALBERT. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had already set up a traffic-control system by having +assigned men at various intervals on Elm? + +Captain TALBERT. Elm; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, if they were going to use Main Street, what control +would be used for cross traffic, crossing Main Street? + +Captain TALBERT. I have no knowledge, sir. Probably normal +transportation, more than likely. That is strictly my idea. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you said that you wanted to say something about the +armored car. + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I had previously been instructed about the +armored car by Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin, that was at the time +they asked that the officers be placed on Main, and later transferred +in to Elm Street, and at the instruction I had, was to have a man be +observant, to make sure that the armored car didn't hit--didn't jam it +into the overhead of the rampworks. + +When the armored car arrived they did back it into the Commerce Street +side, and the driver left it up near the front of the ramp because +of its weight, rather than height. Although, due to its height, it +couldn't have backed much farther down the ramp, but he was afraid +that due to the weight of the car the--it wouldn't pull it out. The +engine wouldn't have enough power to pull it out of the ramp, and so +it was left in that position until after Lieutenant Pierce pulled the +plain car that was his normal assignment car, I think equipment 239, +although, that is irrelevant, attempted to pull it up the ramp. He +couldn't get through the news media, which I would like to add to a +little later. I previously had the news media in the jail office. Now, +during one of my inspection trips I inspected the first floor of the +Police and Courts Building from the doors for Harwood and Main Street +to see that there was no congestion, and also, to look the crowds over +on Commerce, and during one of my trips, or perhaps I was contacting +the dispatcher--I was still conducting my regular patrol duties--the +news media was moving from the jail office to the ramps to clear the +jail office of them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you supervise that movement? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; Chief Batchelor arrived and was told of the +preparation that had been made in the basement, and I assumed looked +at the office. I wasn't present, but I assume he looked in the office +and asked that that news media be removed. He was talking to Sergeant +Putnam and Sergeant Dean. I wasn't present, nor was Lieutenant Pierce +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, the news media were moved out of the jail area and +where did they then go? + +Captain TALBERT. I was told--and this by Sergeant Putnam--that they +were first placed on each side of the ramp leading from Main and +Commerce, and after the chief observed the conflict there, he had those +on the Harwood Street side of the ramp moved across the ramp onto the +Main Street side to keep--to make more room for vehicular traffic, and +that, of course, was from Sergeant Putnam to me. I don't know what +instigated---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you have occasion to observe the news media in +the ramp and parking areas just prior to the shooting of Oswald? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I think I should like to have you describe that, +and in order to facilitate that, I am going to draw a general oblong +figure which I am marking "Area A," and I'm going to draw another +general oblong figure which I am marking "Area B," and I would like you +to tell us for the record---- + +Captain TALBERT. May I inject another---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, I will mark another oblong area, which I will +call Area C. + +Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to describe that for the record--that is, +what were the conditions of those areas particularly with reference to +congestion of people? + +Captain TALBERT. Across from "Area A," there was complete double line +and in some instances triple line of men. That was men with cameras and +those without. Just the reporters who had no cameras, and in "Area B," +in the center of "Area B" I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave "Area A," would you say that the men were +shoulder to shoulder? + +Captain TALBERT. Oh, more than that. Crammed in there. Jammed---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Touching each other? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And about three ranks back toward Main Street? + +Captain TALBERT. That is my impression, yes, sir, about three ranks +back. + +Mr. HUBERT. Describe "Area B," then? + +Captain TALBERT. And "Area B," you had a railing as indicated here by a +dotted line. In front of that railing you had at least two or--probably +three ranks of people all the way down to the turnoff area, which is +the beginning of "Area C." In the center of "Area D," there were two +fixed cameras. + +Mr. HUBERT. Television cameras? + +Captain TALBERT. Television cameras, yes, sir. The others were movie or +still cameras and other cameramen, or strictly reporters, and in "Area +C," we had a fairly dense group in the immediate Main Street side, and +two to three ranks over towards the Commerce Street side dividing it in +half. + +Now, immediately after Lieutenant Pierce informed me of the change in +plans, we had to remove the people from the ramps so that he could +get out on the Main Street side, and they immediately closed back up, +and as he cleared the parking area to enter the ramp, a plain white +or light-colored car pulled onto it, and pulled up behind the armored +car on the Commerce Street side, and another plain light-colored car +attempted to pull up behind him, but he wasn't up far enough, so, we +had to holler at them to pull up a little further, which he did. That +car was attempting to back in, and had to cut to the left in order to +back up the vehicle--go to the right to get back into the jail-office +entrance. That was my understanding of his efforts to do, and the news +media was crowding in on him, so, that there was danger of him running +over them with his vehicle, should it move. So, I was by the left front +fender of that vehicle, Chief Batchelor was to my right, Captain O. +A. Jones to my left and we were--and one or two--perhaps more reserve +officers were there, too, pushing the news media back to let that car +have room to maneuver. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark on the map an area which I am marking +auto and---- + +Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. With the understanding that the front of it indicated by an +arrow is pointed toward Commerce Street? + +Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, would you mark the circle where you were +about the time of the event you have just described? + +Captain TALBERT. This auto is angled in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Maybe we had better angle it then. + +Captain TALBERT. Would you like that black pen? + +Mr. HUBERT. You do it. We, are changing the blue-pen marking because +Captain Talbert indicates that the automobile was on an angle, and he +is now marking it with the black pen. Would you put the word "auto," in +that, please. Now, draw a circle and indicate where you were standing. + +Captain TALBERT. I was standing by the left front fender of the car, as +I previously said. + +Mr. HUBERT. [Drawing a circle and indicating it number "7."] + +Captain TALBERT. Compared with the other, yes. And Chief Batchelor was +standing just to the left front of the vehicle, and--I can't draw it in +there with this circle correctly, but--we'll indicate that "18," Capt. +O. A. Jones was standing to my left, or to the rear of the vehicle +from me. Indicating that to be "19," and at the time that vehicle was +attempting to back up, we had pushed them back far enough for it to +maneuver. At the time it was attempting to back up, there was a muffled +report, a muffled shot and bedlam broke out in the vicinity of the jail +office entry into the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the shot? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I heard it, but did not see the shot and that +there was my first knowledge that the prisoner was in the ramp area. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you facing just before the shot? + +Captain TALBERT. Just before the shot, I was facing the crowd. I had +faced, alternately, the automobile and the crowd, as we were attempting +to get the thing back, and I was facing the crowd and could feel the +automobile pushing against me, I was turning around and pushing back +against the car, and as I made a little room, faced the crowd again and +pushed them back. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I didn't see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave, +because of the news media across "Area A." They screened it from me and +also because of my preoccupation of getting these two plain cars up +behind the armored vehicle. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ruby? + +Captain TALBERT. I know his face. I know his name. I know his +reputation well. I don't know him personally. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him before? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him that day? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the shot? + +Captain TALBERT. After the shot, yes, sir. I'm sorry. After the shot, +or after this muffled report, I went over the back of the trunk of this +automobile we were trying to back in. Because of these people pushing +in I couldn't get--so, I went over the back trunk of it to get to the +officers. I saw they were down, and the melee that was taking place, +as news media was crowding around in on them, and I give them a little +room, and saw both Oswald and another man there who was being dragged +into the jail office by the other officer. As soon as we got some room +for them to drag them in, I shouted to the top of the entrance both +on Commerce and on Main--this may not give you the perspective scope +correctly, but it is about 90 feet on--from the place of the shooting +to the Main Street entrance. I shouted up to the entrance, "let nobody +out," or "nobody out," or something to that effect, and shouted to the +top past the armored car the same thing. "Nobody out," and officers on +this door told them, "Nobody out," and then went into the jail office, +and Ruby was lying on the jail office floor where--with the officers at +the time, attempting to handcuff him, as I recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him at that point? + +Captain TALBERT. I saw his face. That I recognized, but I didn't +recognize him as "Ruby." I asked a question, and may I say this in +front of the young lady? I have to apologize. Do you want it verbatim? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. I'm afraid so. + +Captain TALBERT. I asked the question--I said, "Who is this +son-of-a-bitch?" And he was saying, "I'm Jack Ruby. Everybody knows me. +I'm Jack Ruby." At the same time another officer, or perhaps to answer +that--"That's Jack Ruby, he operates the Carousel Club." + +Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first recognized him? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. As being someone that you knew? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen him prior to that time on that, day, to +your knowledge? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir, nor for 2 years prior to that, to my +knowledge. Approximately 2 years prior to that I was having breakfast +at the Pancake House at the Ramada Inn with other officers when a man +going out--we were sitting down and the man was going out and passed +by and stopped. Was--and he was obtrusively friendly with the other +officer, one of them he knew. He knew Lieutenant Pierce who was with +me, and Lieutenant Pierce introduced me to him, and from that point +until the point where he was on the floor at the jail office, I don't +recall having seen him, and the only reason that I remember the Pancake +incident, it was after the incident I was reminded of the incident by +Lieutenant Pierce. I don't recall of having met him at any time since +the old days of his operation at the Silver Spur. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him, or see him after that? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir, I asked--at that time. I didn't know they had +the gun. I didn't see the gun, so, I thought it was still in the crowd, +and I asked Chief Batchelor for permission to put all of the news media +in the police assembly room for interrogation, or somebody said, "I +don't think we have the gun." One of the officers who was kneeling on +Ruby--literally, you couldn't hardly see Ruby for this officer kneeling +on him--said, "I have the gun." Or perhaps he said, "Graves has the +gun." And then I told Chief Batchelor that it wouldn't be necessary to +search them. + +I got a batch of memo pads from the jail office and gave some of them +to Sergeant Everett, passed some out myself, told the officers to get +the names, identification and location at the time of the shooting of +anyone before they let them out of the basement. Chief Batchelor had +told me to go to Parkland and secure it. I immediately got in my car, +got on there and told the dispatcher to gather up all of my squads +and to have them to report to me code 3, at Parkland and followed the +ambulance out to Parkland. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby had stated that he had +come down the Main Street ramp? + +Captain TALBERT. I started my own investigation. Of course, I had +nothing to do with this official investigation of the incident in the +basement, but it is only natural that a police officer and a police +supervisor is going to instigate his own investigation. I started mine +from the hospital on the phone, and that question would be impossible +to answer. I may have heard it through the news media. I heard--may +have heard it through another officer who had overheard what they said +up in the jail. It could have been something of that sort. I couldn't +tell you exactly, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you, in fact, conduct an independent investigation of +your own? + +Captain TALBERT. Just a very cursory one, and during a very brief +period until the official investigation got underway. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long a time would that have been? + +Captain TALBERT. Well, maybe---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Put it this way, what did you do by way of instigating the +investigation? + +Captain TALBERT. Contacted, attempted to ascertain how Ruby entered +the ramp, or entered the parking area rather. I contacted each of my +officers who were on the entrances, and I did that while I was at the +hospital. That was before the death of--or during the operation on +Oswald, and while we still had the hospital secured by the squads, and +I contacted the supervisors who were there, and after that I was told +that an official investigation would be conducted, and I dropped it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was about an hour? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I wouldn't estimate the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you contact Vaughn particularly? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I had contacted Vaughn. Then contacted him +the next day. I found that Vaughn had let one man in onto the ramp that +he hadn't included in his report the next day. This man being a city +employee, a--one who Vaughn thought was authorized to enter the ramp. +He was Chenault, the mechanic in charge of the garage, so Chenault told +Vaughn. This was not in Vaughn's report, but when Vaughn was broached +with it, and this was on the 26th--I believe that could have been the +27th. Could you hold the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well---- + +Captain TALBERT. Let me just say that when Vaughn was broached with +having described this one entry into the ramp, that was the day after +his report had been written, and I had had a chance to review all +the reports, I obtained a copy of all the officers' reports and let +them stand even though some of them were conflicting and deleting +things--now, these were not the officers on the door, but the officers +on the street. That some of them conflicted about who told them to do +what. But I didn't have them change them as I normally would, because +of the incident, and also because of the nature of the incident, and +also because of my involvement in this. + +Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that Vaughn had filed a report in which he +failed to report that he had let Chenault go down the ramp? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; Vaughn, in his report, did not note +anything about anyone coming in the ramp other than squad cars and +the paddy wagon. No pedestrian traffic denoted, but when I went over +it with him in the presence of Chief Fisher and Sergeant Putnam, he +recalled--Vaughn without our having to bring it to his attention. + +Mr. HUBERT. He recalled Chenault? + +Captain TALBERT. I'm sorry. He recalled Chenault without our having +to bring it to his attention and inserted it in his verbal report, +and that was after the written report, which was an oversight on his +part. Chenault, may I add, was immediately evicted from the basement by +Sergeant Putnam when he saw him come down the ramp. He had him leave. +Chenault said that he needed to check the vehicles in the basement and +to see if any of them needed to be in the garage, and Sergeant Putnam +told him that he could do that later; to leave the ramp area at that +time, and he did. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned the paddy wagon coming down the Main Street +ramp. + +Captain TALBERT. It is a fact that the paddy wagon did come in. +However, each vehicle coming in was searched, and the paddy wagon was +operated by an officer named Lewis. The front seat of the paddy wagon +was searched and the back of the paddy wagon was searched---- + +Mr. HUBERT. By whom? + +Captain TALBERT. Chief Fisher--before they let them into the ramp. By +Sergeant Putnam, himself, as I recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't know of any record of how many paddy wagons or +other vehicles came down Main Street ramp after Vaughn was posted and +until the shooting? + +Captain TALBERT. I recall three in the reports. I didn't see any of +it--of them, but I recall three in the reports. One being a paddy +wagon. One vehicle contained two detectives. Another vehicle operated +by R. A. Watts, with a juvenile prisoner. Watts was not permitted to +leave the station and the prisoner was booked, and he was retained to +assist in the security. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Talbert, I am going to mark for identification +an FBI report of an interview which you made on November 24, 1963, +Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, as Exhibit 5065, deposition of C. E. +Talbert, and I have signed my name to it. It is a one page document. +I am marking another document consisting of two pages. Placing upon +it, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5066, deposition of C. E. +Talbert." I am signing my own name below that, all of which is on the +first page of the document which is the FBI report by Special Agent +Vincent Drain, dated November 25, 1963. It consists of two pages and +I am placing my initial on the bottom right-hand corner on the second +page. I also am marking for identification another document, being a +copy of a letter apparently addressed by you, Capt. Cecil Talbert to +Chief Curry, dated November 26, containing five pages. The first page +I am marking as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5067, +deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert." And I am signing my name below +that now, and I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner +of each of the following pages. I am marking on a single page document +purporting to be an FBI report made by Special Agents Logan and +Bramblett, dated December 10, 1963, by placing upon that document the +words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5068, deposition of Capt. +C. E. Talbert," and I have signed my name, and that document--that +exhibit consists just of a single page. And finally marking upon a +report of an interview which you had with Special Agents Bramblett and +Logan of the FBI, on December 12, the following: "Dallas, Tex., March +24, 1964, Exhibit 5069, deposition of Capt. C. E. Talbert," under which +I am signing my name. Now, that document consists of eight pages, +and I am marking the seven other pages with my initials on the lower +right-hand corner, on each of the pages. Now, Captain, I ask you if you +have had a chance to study and to read these various documents? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record note, by the way, that Exhibit 5070, is +the tour of the basement which has been previously identified and +signed. In a moment I am going to ask you to identify and endorse +your signature or initials below my signature or initials on each one +of these pages of the various documents. In other words--in order to +separate them, I direct your attention now to Exhibit 5065, being the +FBI report of November 24, 1963. As to each one of these documents, +I want to ask you this: Does that document correctly represent the +truth and facts such as you know them? Has anything been deleted? Has +anything been omitted? Do any facts stated need any modification or +change of any sort whatsoever? + +Captain TALBERT. You want me to read them again; do you, sir? + +Mr. HUBERT. Just enough to identify them. You have already studied them. + +Captain TALBERT. The first document marked---- + +Mr. HUBERT. 5065? + +Captain TALBERT. 5065. In the last three and a half lines reading: "He +said the press and other news agencies had set up for Oswald's transfer +from the city jail to the county jail, and that day he did not feel the +police department would want to cross the news agencies," and if those +were my words it wouldn't be--it is probably a matter of semantics. +Probably a matter of our conversation with the sheriff--after he +conversed with me, I had a interview, a brief conversation with Newsom +concerning the fact that chief would contact him upon returning to city +hall, and I do not recall that. I don't recall that. I don't refute it. +I just don't recall it. Shall I initial it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Please. If you will please sign your name under it. I +understand, therefore, that you have no recollection of having said +that you doubted that they were changing the plans because of any fear +that they might have of crossing the press? + +Captain TALBERT. Sure, it would be improper, and the--even an inference +of a statement like that sort would be improper for a police captain to +make, and those are not my words. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you expressed any idea of the same nature, but +in other words? + +Captain TALBERT. Perhaps the time lapse, I can't recall, but, as I +say, it may be a matter of semantics, and the way he understood it and +what I had said. As I recall my conversation with him, it was rather +difficult to get him back to the phone. I went through two or three +people to get him to the phone, and as I recall about the conversation, +it was rather brief and to the point, that I had contacted the chief +and the chief would contact him when he got to the office, which would +be between 8:30 and 9. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember discussing any possible change of plans at +all with him? + +Captain TALBERT. None. I discussed no change of plans with Mr. Newsom. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss the possibility of a change of plans in the +light of the new---- + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall mentioning, in any way, the concept, the +basic concept of that sentence, that is, that the press would be +considered whatsoever in the thinking about those plans for the +transfer? + +Captain TALBERT. In conversing with the sheriff, and our conversation +either from the sheriff or from me, and I think probably from the +sheriff, the subject arose that the chief had told the press that +they could arrive at the city hall at 10 o'clock, or thereabouts, the +previous day, and that was with Sheriff Decker. Not with Mr. Newsom, +as I recall it. Now, I have--several months have passed since--and +my memory becomes vague on it, so, must have been--possibly maybe a +matter of semantics, maybe a matter of conversing, or conversation +between Newsom and the sheriff of our having had this brief +conversation. Now, the rest, when you ask if we had any conversation +regarding a change of plan in the transferring, I answered you +incorrectly and I don't recall discussing it with Newsom at all. I did +discuss it with Sheriff Decker and said that the chief would contact +him. Any discussion with him was very brief and that the chief would +contact him about the transfer of Oswald when he arrived at the office. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you any other comments to make concerning +this document? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you pass then on back to 5066, which also is an FBI +statement. + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; on this document 5066, it indicates--and +this too is a matter of semantics, I am thinking. It indicates that +Ruby rushed in with newsmen. That--shall I read it and finish it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, put the part you read in quotes and end the quote and +make your comments. Just start off with the word "quote" where you want +to start. + +Captain TALBERT. "There were approximately 150 news reporters and +television cameramen that----" + +Closing the quote. The 150, in my opinion, mind, which is relatively +fluid, by the way anybody will estimate a crowd, "150 including police +officers, news media and television cameramen," approximately 150 in +the basement. Now, not news media alone, and--" He stated in the rush +to get down into the basement in which the loading ramp was located +and Oswald was being brought down from the jail, it is highly possible +that Jack Ruby may have been--walked down the ramp with the newsmen, +unnoticed." + +That is, again, something that I couldn't--could not and would not +have stated, because the newsmen were in the basement. There was no +rush of newsmen into the basement. They were in the basement, and they +had been in the basement some hour before Oswald was brought into the +basement. I don't know how this was injected into this report, but it +is incorrect. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you any other comments to make in +regard to Exhibit 5066? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, "According to Captain Talbert, now, Will Fritz +was in charge about removing Oswald to the Dallas County Jail, and +the attempted removal of the prisoner Oswald about 11 a.m." That was +my opinion. Shouldn't that be inserted there? It was my opinion that +Captain Fritz was in charge of the removal of Oswald from the city jail +to the county jail. I had no prior information on it, and still have no +information on it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the basis of your opinion? + +Captain TALBERT. The fact that he wanted him in his office from the +jail. He had taken him out of the jail on a "tempo," which is a +temporary release from the jail to the CID bureau, or CID office, is +the fact that he had him out of the jail at the time is what I based it +on. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. All right, now, have you any further comments on +5066? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to sign your name below mine and initial +these pages. Have you done that? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, pass then to 5067, and I will ask the same basic +questions as to that document and its several pages. + +Captain TALBERT. 5067, is my report to the chief of police, and I have +no exceptions on it. I read the report, and it is, in fact, similar to +one that I had issued to the chief regarding the incident on the date +of the 26th--November 26th. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are initialing now each page below by initial, and you +are signing your name to the first page below my signature? + +Captain TALBERT. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you turn then to Exhibit 5068, and address +yourself to the same basic questions that I asked you originally. + +Captain TALBERT. In Exhibit 5068, I have no exceptions whatsoever. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just sign your name below mine then. Finally that brings +up to Exhibit 5069. Do you have any comments to make with reference to +that document? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; on Exhibit 5069, in there--and again due to +semantics or to my lack of ability to express myself, some corrections +that need to be made on the first page of 5069. It indicates "Captain +Talbert directed Lieutenant Pierce to call in 3 squads from their +district assignments from 3 different stations to take 4 individuals +from the headquarters station." The word "individuals" should be squads. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you weren't talking about 4 people, but 4 +squads? + +Captain TALBERT. Four patrol squads. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which would constitute a number of people---- + +Captain TALBERT. Which I had already directed him to get as many 2-man +squads as possible. I do not have a copy of the details but I could get +it. + +Mr. HUBERT. No, that's all right. + +Captain TALBERT. The actual number--and on to the next page of the same +exhibit, he added at this time that there were no reserve officers +utilized in the basement of the police building, and that specific +arrangements were made to inspect the vicinity of the basement. There +were reserve officers used in the police building. When it says +"basement,"--there were reserve officers used in the basement of the +police building. This up here about the "CID," I mean the "detectives," +rather than the "supervisor," that should be changed too, and "Pierce's +car," also. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are speaking of the fifth page of---- + +Captain TALBERT. Let me initial that down there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were talking about something which appears on +the fifth page of Exhibit 5069, in the top paragraph. Will you read +the sentence, starting with the word "quote" and ending with the word +"quote" and then comment upon the sentence? + +Captain TALBERT. "Captain Talbert could also recall that upon arrival +of the armored car, at the Commerce Street exit a plain car with +three detectives were sent out the Main Street rampway so as to be in +position in front of the armored car for the purpose of escort." The +word "detective" should be changed to "three supervisors," "uniformed +supervisors," and those men were Lieutenant Pierce and--it identifies +them later, but they were uniformed supervisors, and this 5-minute +element here, now, hold---- + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Captain TALBERT. On page 5, of the same exhibit, quote---- + +Mr. HUBERT. First, top paragraph? + +Captain TALBERT. The top paragraph quote, "Captain Talbert identified +the occupants of this car as being Lieutenant Pierce, who was at that +time driving, Sgt. J. A. Putnam who was in the right front seat, and +Sgt. B. J. Maxey, he was in the left rear seat. He was later informed +by Lieutenant Pierce that it was approximately 5 minutes prior to the +shooting of Oswald that they had proceeded from the basement, left +the city hall." That this seems to indicate the time element from the +vehicle leaving the basement, and the time that Oswald was shot was +indicated to me as being 5 minutes. That was incorrect and I believe +now that the indication was that it was approximately 5 minutes from +the time Lieutenant Pierce had left the homicide office until the time +Oswald was shot. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your recollection is now that what Pierce +told you later was that 5 minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting +and the time prior thereto, that he had left the CID office? + +Captain TALBERT. That's it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Whereas, the statement that you have just read and quoted +would indicate that the 5 minutes was between the time of leaving the +basement and the shooting? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you think that it was a mistake, that you did not +intend to convey that idea of what Pierce told you? + +Captain TALBERT. That's quite correct. I didn't intend to convey that +idea. + +Mr. HUBERT. That, in fact, is your recollection now of what Lieutenant +Pierce told you? + +Captain TALBERT. As I recall now, Lieutenant Pierce told me that from +the time he left the basement until the time--and from the time he left +the basement ramp and the time he reached the Commerce Street ramp, the +shooting had occurred, and that time lapse would be a minute and three +quarters, or 2 minutes at the most. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether Pierce ever talked to you about a +5-minute interval? + +Captain TALBERT. The 5-minute interval, I can't recall; no, sir. I +don't recall that, but if we want to leave it in here it could have +been from the time--it would have been right from the time he left +the homicide office until the time of the shooting. I don't recall +the 5-minute interval. Now, at the time, it may have happened, but my +memory now is--does not bring it back. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, your correction really---- + +Captain TALBERT. Is incorrect? + +Mr. HUBERT. Is, in a way, incorrect, because you have corrected to +refer to a 5-minute interval and you now tell me that you have no +recollection of talking about a 5-minute lapse at all. + +Captain TALBERT. Right, sir. I am merely trying to account for the +minutes there in my own---- + +Mr. HUBERT. But you do not recollect Pierce telling you anything about +5 minutes at all? + +Captain TALBERT. I can recall the route he took and where he stopped, +but I can't recall the 5 minutes entering into it at all, and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; any further corrections or observations? + +Captain TALBERT. Rather a minute one on page 6. Let me get that. That +is about passing out the pads. I don't--to get that identification--I +don't think there is any point in answering that. + +On page 7, of the same exhibit and the first paragraph, "In regard to +this particular assignment Captain Talbert advised that he was acting +on his own behalf concerning the security measures and it wasn't on +instructions by any particular superior as to what he was or was not +to do. At no time prior to the transfer did Talbert receive specific +instructions concerning the details of the transfer, and most of this +information was obtained during the course of the morning." + +In essence, that's true, but to understand the setup of the police +function--I was the patrol commander on duty during that period and +there was no necessity to give me instructions by anyone in--any +superior or any of my superiors as to any incident that would require +emergency action or restraintive action. The patrol function is for an +emergency function, and to take care of the immediate difficulties, or +immediate trouble. So, it leaves the impression in that paragraph that +someone was derelict in their not informing me prior to that morning, +about not informing me of the course of the transfer and the other +details, when actually, it wasn't necessary. And had Captain Souter or +Captain Frazier been on duty I think they would have taken the same +action. This is a patrol function. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, your comment is that what you did was +standard operating procedure? + +Captain TALBERT. Standard operating patrol function. If you find +trouble arising, try to offset it. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that you would be expected to put into operation such +standard operating procedure? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that they would understand that you would take such +procedures without any particular orders? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the essence of your---- + +Captain TALBERT. The essence of what I was trying to convey. And, +second paragraph, same page, it refers, "Captain Talbert continues to +say he has never worked for Jack Ruby in any way whatsoever, but did +hear through rumors that an individual by the name of Cox was alleged +to be a reserve officer, was at one time employed by Jack Ruby." That +statement arose from having read the newspapers in which Cox gave a +statement to the newspaper, the newsmen, and said that he had worked +for Jack Ruby. It was not of my knowledge. I didn't know Cox. We have +no police sergeant--that is supposed to have been a Sergeant Cox, and +we have no police sergeant named Cox. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I understand your explanation, you do not deny that you +made that statement, but the information you based the statement on you +received from the newspapers and not from your own knowledge at all? + +Captain TALBERT. True, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And do you have any knowledge on the point? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I still don't know Cox. + +Mr. HUBERT. Any other comments? + +Captain TALBERT. And the fourth paragraph, same page. That is fourth +paragraph, page 7, same exhibit. "In regard to any background +information concerning Jack Ruby, Captain Talbert stated that he was +never personally acquainted with Jack Ruby, and when he did see Jack +Ruby, he could only recall that it was a familiar face. He related that +he could not associate the name with the face, and was not aware that +Ruby was a nightclub owner in Dallas * * *." I intended to convey that +the face of Ruby did not associate itself in my mind with nightclubs +in the Dallas area. Although, the name of Ruby associates itself with +a reputation of Ruby by--as a nightclub operator in Dallas, quite +vividly. I am quite familiar with his nightclubs by name, and associate +the name with the unsavory background. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that knowledge concerning Ruby, had you used it prior +to the events of the 24th? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes; that knowledge existed prior to the events of +the 24th, and were police records. And other police officers conveying +their information to me as to activities around his club. I--around his +sister's club out on Oak Lawn, the Vegas Club and the whole name of +Ruby and Ruby's sister and their operation of their clubs was familiar +to me. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you used the word "unsavory" in connection with him? + +Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; I did. Can she hold this? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I'd rather---- + +Captain TALBERT. You can put it in later. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Do you have any other things, other comments to +make with reference to it? + +Captain TALBERT. Not to that specific exhibit, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; will you then initial---- + +Captain TALBERT. I think that is the final one. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether it was ever considered moving Ruby by +use of the Main Street basement entrance? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean moving Oswald. + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I had no information on that and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not hear that discussed? + +Captain TALBERT. I had--I never heard any rumors to that effect. Didn't +hear it discussed and I never heard any rumor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else that you would like to say +concerning any of the matters that we have discussed, Captain Talbert? + +Captain TALBERT. Only say that with the explanation of how the basement +has been secured, and my personal examination of the basement, I was of +the opinion that no unauthorized person could enter that basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. To what did you attribute the failure of the security? + +Captain TALBERT. The final reason, or the official investigation is +one that I can't refute, and I am sure you are familiar with it, that +Officer Vaughn on the Main Street entrance stepped out to the curb as +Lieutenant Pierce pulled the plain car out to put it in front of the +armored car just prior to the shooting, and that is the route that Ruby +said he took into the station, and it--as far as any investigation has +been, that is the route he took. I can't---- + +Mr. HUBERT. There is no positive evidence indicating any other route? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir; and the only--hold it a minute. I want--there +was an extra police officer standing--still wanted in? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, all right. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you would like to add other than +what we have talked about? + +Captain TALBERT. My primary concern that morning was with the crowd +control, the mob control. Our warning had been against a possible +larger group of people taking Ruby away from the officers. They had +told the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean Oswald? + +Captain TALBERT. I'm sorry. Taking Oswald away from the officers. They +had been told, the person who answered the phone in the FBI office, +that he wanted the information transmitted to the police department +that no police officers would be injured, and, of course, that was +discounted as no police officer being injured by it, but nevertheless, +the crowd action was highly probable, and our primary objective was to +prevent, or control, crowd action. I had a total of three gas grenade +kits and projectile kits in the basement, that is my own, and the +officer's riot guns, if that becomes necessary, although, the crowd can +be controlled by gas if we couldn't do it with brute force, we could do +it with gas. But the event that did occur, where one person dashed out +of a crowd and shot a person and literally laid down, said, "Here I am. +I did it," in pride was rather stunning. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, captain, have you been interviewed by any member of +the Commission other than the interview that you have had with me? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. As to the interview with me, now, there was one yesterday, +I think that is about it, is that right? + +Captain TALBERT. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. They--the one with you yesterday and this one has been the +only interview? + +Captain TALBERT. The only interview has been with you yesterday. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything that you can think of between the +deposition you have given today and the interview we had, which is +inconsistent with one another? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you, or did you provide any material or facts in any +of the interviews which haven't been developed on the record? + +Captain TALBERT. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then one final thing; is there anything else you +wish to say? + +Captain TALBERT. I don't think there is anything else I could say that +would add materially to your investigation, sir. It is--if there were, +I'd be delighted to do so. + +Mr. HUBERT. If something should occur to you which has not been covered +here or in any other report, I want you to feel free to contact us and +tell us that you want to add what should be added. + +Captain TALBERT. I would do so immediately. There is no one more +concerned with finding out how Ruby got in the basement to shoot Oswald +than myself, so, I am with you. I would love to find out how he got +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you, and on behalf of the Commission, I +want to thank you for your cooperation and time. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CHARLES OLIVER ARNETT + +The testimony of Charles Oliver Arnett was taken at 8 p.m., on March +25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, +assistant attorney general of Texas, was present. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff +of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission itself was set up +under an Executive order issued by President Johnson and congressional +resolution passed by Congress. + +Pursuant to these official acts, the Commission itself has promulgated +a set of rules of procedure, and under these rules of procedure I have +been authorized to come here and take your sworn deposition. Captain +Arnett, I want to explain to you a little bit of the general nature of +our inquiry here. We are concerned with the assassination of President +Kennedy and the final death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have been +empowered and requested by the President to investigate all the facts +and evaluate and then report this back to the President. + +We have asked you to come here because we believe that you may have +some facts that might be pertinent, particularly to the death of Lee +Oswald. However, we are also concerned with the entire picture in the +examination, and if there is anything that you think would be helpful +to us, why, of course, we want to take that. Mr. Hubert and myself +are not working on an intensive basis on the other aspects of things, +outside of Ruby. So what I will do is ask you a few general things +which might have some bearing upon the death of the President that +would enable other people to look at it and see if you were somebody +that might have information, and then we will get into the other +problems. + +Now, the mechanics by which we asked you to come here by, the general +counsel of the Commission sent a letter to Chief Curry indicating +that we would like to talk to you and certain other police officers. +Actually, under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have a +written letter from the Commission, 3 days in advance of your testimony +here, but the rules also provide that you can waive this notice. Before +I swear you in, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the +notice provision? + +Mr. ARNETT. Oh, sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are also entitled to have an attorney, and I see +that you don't have an attorney, and I take it that you don't want one. + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any questions you would like to ask me +about the thing before I swear you in? + +Mr. ARNETT. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that +the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name? + +Mr. ARNETT. Charles Oliver Arnett. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And when were you born, Mr. Arnett? + +Mr. ARNETT. September 6, 1911. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now? + +Mr. ARNETT. 1223 South Waverly Drive, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are employed with the Dallas Police Department, is +that right? + +Mr. ARNETT. No. I am a captain on the reserve. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you explain what the difference is between the +reserve and the police department? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. Reserves were established about 10 or 11 years +ago, to assist in, say, tornadoes or, you know, something that came up +that they needed more help in to be trained on that. We don't draw any +pay from the Dallas Police Department at all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who does pay you? + +Mr. ARNETT. Nobody. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a completely voluntary thing on your part? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a regular occupation on the side? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; I drive a truck. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And for whom do you work? + +Mr. ARNETT. Certain-Teed Products Co. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with them? + +Mr. ARNETT. Fourteen years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the police reserve? + +Mr. ARNETT. A little over 10 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you had any special training in connection with +your duties in the police reserve? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; went through school. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us a little bit about that school? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, when I was going through, we went on Friday night, +I believe it takes 7-1/2 months, if I remember right, to complete the +course. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was this that you went through the school? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's been a little over 10 years now. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went every Friday night? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. For how many hours a night? + +Mr. ARNETT. Two hours. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And as a result you became an officer in the reserve? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, since you have been in the reserve, how frequently +would you be called to duty? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I was a sergeant to start with. We had 2 nights a +month, I believe it was, that we were assigned to be here. You could +come more times than that if you had the opportunity. Then I made +lieutenant, which put me over more men, and April 6, either 3 or 4 +years ago, I was made captain, and I have, I believe 80 some odd men +under my company B. I am captain over company B. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you go through the training school, do your men +engage in regular training of any sort, with the police department? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well they ride on the squads and observe what's going on +and special things like Texas-Oklahoma football rally. We work in that. +State Fair of Texas. Usually somebody assigned to that every night +during the Fair, and such as the President's parade. There were, I +believe say 30 some odd--27 or 28, I believe it was, was assigned to +that. Just things like that, or what we are assigned to, and then we +have our regular nights that we ride squads, that we ride with squads +or whatever---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How often are you assigned to ride squads? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, the patrolmen usually ride on their regular nights. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that once a week or once every 2 weeks? + +Mr. ARNETT. Now, they are assigned twice a month, but if they have the +time they usually come down once a week. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And for how long do they ride? + +Mr. ARNETT. Oh, usually report around 7 or 7:30 at night until 10:30, +11 o'clock. Some of them ride longer than that, but that's the usual +case. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they in uniform at that time when they ride? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they receive any pay for that? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any other training programs that these men +undergo once they have gone through the initial 7-month program? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, each fall they go out to the pistol range. I would +say for four or five Saturdays, something like that. I might be off a +week or something like that, but somewhere in that neighborhood, for +training out there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else you can think of? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, right offhand, I don't believe there are. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to mark these couple of documents here, and +then we will talk about these [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark what is an interview that you had +with two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Mabey +and Mr. Kenneth P. Hughes, on December 4, 1963. I am going to mark +that Dallas, Tex., C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5032. And the next +document that I am going to mark is what purports to be a copy of a +letter that you prepared--signed, rather, dated November 27, 1963, +and addressed to Chief Curry, having to do with the events that you +observed on November 24, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., +C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5033. Now, I am going to hand these two +exhibits to you, Captain Arnett, and I want to ask you if you have +examined those. Have you had a chance to read them? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections, changes that +you want to make in those, after having had a chance to read them? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us where they are and we will see if we +can't do that. + +Mr. ARNETT. Right here. "He was stationed at the door of Chief Curry's +office--" [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, this is on Exhibit 5032, and you are +referring to the language in the second paragraph on the first page. +You stated that you were stationed in the door of Chief Curry's office. +Go ahead. + +Mr. ARNETT. I was stationed at Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. ARNETT. See, they have got it wrong. They have got it down Chief +Curry, when it was Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you take my pen, then, and make the +change on there, and cross out what's wrong and make an entry nearby to +indicate what's correct, and then initial it? + +Mr. ARNETT. Just scratch out this? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I would say scratch out Chief Curry and write in Captain +Fritz, if that's correct. + +Mr. ARNETT. How do you spell Fritz? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z. + +Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Apostrophe s, I guess. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z-'-s. + +Mr. ARNETT. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you initial, put your initials by each one of +those changes and put a date out there, 3-25-64. Are there any other +corrections that you think ought to be made there? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any right now. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, did you serve in connection with the +President's parade? + +Mr. ARNETT. Was I at the parade? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any duties as a reserve officer in connection +with President Kennedy's arrival? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what those duties were? + +Mr. ARNETT. I was at large, but I worked between Harwood and St. Paul, +on Main Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when were you first told that you would have some +responsibility in connection with the procession of the President +through Dallas? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, probably the day before. I am not going to say that +for sure. I could be wrong a day or two, but I think it was the day +before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have any men that you were responsible for +supervising? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men did you supervise on that particular day? + +Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, we had 27 or 28 reserves in the +detail. We assigned them out of the assembly room to various locations +up and down where the parade would be. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you attend any meeting prior to November 22, +in which you got instructions as to what you were going to do in +connection with the parade? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; other than the assembly room that morning, when we +assigned the men out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived at the police department on the +morning of November 22, what time was it that you got there, do you +remember? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like it was around 10 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to 10 o'clock on November 22, had you received +any instructions as to what your duties were going to be, in particular +with respect to the parade? + +Mr. ARNETT. Other than just work in the parade is all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you arrived, who did you report to? + +Mr. ARNETT. To the assembly room. And right offhand, now, I can't tell +you who was in charge of the regular officers. At that time I knew, and +it seems to me like it was Lieutenant ----. I can't recall his name +right now. Maybe I will think of it directly. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's all right. Was there a meeting of all the +reserve officers in the assembly room? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions at that time? + +Mr. ARNETT. At that time they were each one assigned their location to +work. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. ARNETT. And not to--if they was booing the President or not--you +know, getting out of line or anything, not to bother anybody, but if +you saw anybody that was--acted as though they was going to bodily +harm--you know, injure body, well, to notify the police officer, +regular officers, you know, of what was going on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall who gave--you say this was the +lieutenant that gave these instructions? + +Mr. ARNETT. It was a lieutenant that assigned us out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who gave you these instructions that you +are talking about? + +Mr. ARNETT. It seems like it was Captain Lawrence, but I couldn't swear +to that, but it's---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Captain Solomon have any responsibility in that regard? + +Mr. ARNETT. It may have been Captain Solomon that gave us that. It was +a captain, I am almost certain and I feel like--I know Captain Solomon +was in the building, in the meeting with us, and it could have been him +that gave us instructions. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The instructions that were given, did they have +to do with anything other than watching the crowd, were you instructed +to watch any other places besides the crowd? + +Mr. ARNETT. You mean any particular buildings? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or just buildings generally; were you instructed to watch +the windows in buildings or watch the roofs or anything like that? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say that anything like that in particular +was named, but it was, you know, to watch and see--keep the crowd back +out of the street and see that nobody, you know, rushed out there +against the President's car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you served in connection with other parades? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other Presidential or political parades like this? + +Mr. ARNETT. At one time Vice President Nixon came to the opening of the +Fair, and I was there for that. Some man walked up to me and told me +that he would like to present a pair of boots to the Vice President. A +Secret Service man, I suppose, was standing close enough that he heard +what the man said to me, and he asked me what the man said, and I told +him, and he said, "Certainly he can't give him a pair of boots. Get his +name and address and if he wants to mail the Vice President a pair of +boots he can later." That's all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the instructions that were given down in the assembly +room, did they differ in any way from the instructions that would +normally be given at any other parade that you worked in? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't think so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean at other parades was it the custom to bring you +into the assembly room or---- + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then give instructions as to what you should do and what +to watch out for? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of the men under your supervision assigned to the +area of the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there were any men at all of the +reserve officers assigned to the area of the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall any. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the fact that you don't recall; would you have been +made aware of that? + +Mr. ARNETT. I had a list of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You did. And did that list show the areas where they were +assigned? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have a copy of that list? + +Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon does. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on this list did it show where each particular man +was to stand, was to be placed? + +Mr. ARNETT. They would either be on the west side of Harwood or they +would be on the east side of Harwood, between block so-and-so; Main the +same way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But would it show Charles O. Arnett, corner of Main and +Harwood? + +Mr. ARNETT. I was working at large. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would it show, if I were working there, would it +show Burt W. Griffin, corner of Main and Harwood? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did you do when you heard that the +President had been shot? + +Mr. ARNETT. Had an aunt that was to be buried at 2 o'clock that +afternoon, and the President's parade was later than it had been +predicted, and when it was over with, prior to the President's arrival +at the--between Harwood and Pacific on Main, a young lady in her +twenties, maybe 30 years old, came up to me and said, "There is some +kids right down there that's got a gun and some toy handcuffs and a +knife." I said, "Would you show them to me?" She said "Well, I rather +not." So I went and got Earl Sawyer, a police officer that was working +the corner of Harwood and Main, and told him of it. He and I went back +to the lady and he asked her. She said, "Oh, it's just a toy pistol." +But some little girls there with us told us where they were, about +where they were standing, and we walked up to them, asked them about +the gun and stuff. They said the boy with the gun had walked off, but +one of them give us a pair of handcuffs and a knife, and I taken him, +and Sawyer went with me, and we carried him to the juvenile department +up on the third floor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a real knife that the kid had? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. The gun turned out to be a blank, like they +shoot--oh, at starting races or something like that, you know. When the +parade was past us, one of these smaller boys that was in the group +come up to me and asked me when his buddy would be turned loose. I +said, "I don't know, son, but I will go up there with you to try to +find out where he is." So we went up there on the third floor of the +juvenile department. While I was in there someone rushed in and said, +"The President has been shot." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there with you at that time in the juvenile +department; do you recall any of the officers that were there? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe Captain Martin--now, I could be wrong on +the name, but he is over the juvenile department, or was. You know, +the captain that they--that had the kid that we had carried up there. +So I came back downstairs then and I saw two or three highway patrol, +driver's license men---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt here just a second, give you a few names +of people who were in that department, juvenile department, and see if +you recognize any of those as having been present. Was Detective Lowery +there? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember him being. Now, he may have been. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Goolsby there? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Detective Miller there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say, and I wouldn't say without telling +you the truth. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know L. D. Miller, Louis D. Miller? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I do or not. I do know Lowery, and I +do know the officer---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery and Goolsby. How about the Officer Harrison? + +Mr. ARNETT. Blackie Harrison? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Blackie Harrison? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know him? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he there at the time? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall him being there at the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go after you left the boy in the juvenile +bureau? + +Mr. ARNETT. That was when I carried the second boy up to see about his +buddy? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I went downstairs and on the street. As I say, I saw three +or four Texas Highway Department driver's license men, and I said, "The +President has been shot." And they said, "Oh, Arnett, what size camera +was he shooting?" They thought, you know, I was joking. So I went on +and got in my car. By that time squads were going everywhere. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this your private car? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes; went home to change clothes out of my uniform into +civilian clothes, to go to my aunt's funeral. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, which way did you drive? + +Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went down Young Street. I did. I went down +Young Street to avoid all this traffic of squads and everything +going---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Young Street in what direction? + +Mr. ARNETT. West. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Headed west? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Over the Houston Street viaduct to Oak Cliff. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Does Young intersect Jackson any place? + +Mr. ARNETT. Jackson runs along beside it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Runs parallel to it. Did you go by the Greyhound Bus +station? + +Mr. ARNETT. Did I go by it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I would have been one block south of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you estimate that it was that you +went over the Houston Street viaduct? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was shortly before 1 o'clock, because I +had to rush to get out of these clothes into other clothes to get to +Grapevine, which is only 20 miles, something like that, to be there at +2 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got across the Houston Street viaduct, is +there a point where you come to Zangs Boulevard? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to Zangs? + +Mr. ARNETT. I went Zangs to Jefferson. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to the corner of Zangs and Beckley at any +point in your trip out there? + +Mr. ARNETT. No. Beckley would have been a block east of where I was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you drove this route, did you see anything? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any importance to the Commission? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I take it then you went on out to the +funeral, or wherever you had to go? + +Mr. ARNETT. I went on home. I had my police radio on. Before I arrived +at my home I heard someone come in on the radio and say, "A police +officer has been shot." And further, maybe a block or two, he says, +"I believe he is dead." And I changed my clothes right quick and got +in my car to go to Grapevine. I came back down Clarendon to the R. +L. Thornton Expressway, taken R. L. Thornton Expressway to Highway +114--well, it turns into Stemmons Expressway, you know, automatically, +Highway 114, and I was listening all the time of this transaction of +the police officer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening on a police radio? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Let me ask you this, this is your own private car? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the police radio broadcast over a frequency that can +be heard on ordinary radio receivers? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of special adaptation do you have to have on +your receiver to pick this up? + +Mr. ARNETT. They call it a converter. It's hooked in with your radio. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this an FM converter; do they broadcast on an FM +frequency, do you know? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, seems to me like it used to be AM and you could pick +it up then by having your radio fixed a certain way, but they quit +that. You couldn't do it no more, so you had to buy this converter +to go with your radio to get it. And I listened to the move from the +library over in Oak Cliff to the Texas Theater, and was listening to it +when they got him, but I was at Grapevine. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the automobiles called in from the outlying +districts over your radio, when you were listening to it; did you hear +any communications from the dispatcher or otherwise, calling police +cars in from the outlying districts? + +Mr. ARNETT. They were giving a description of the man that they had a +description on, and then after the policeman was shot, Tippit, well, +they was giving the description of it, and they first thought he was in +the library over in Oak Cliff. Then they moved to a vacant house, then +they moved to the Texas Theater. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you go back to the police station on +Friday, after you heard that Tippit had been shot? + +Mr. ARNETT. After the funeral, after my aunt's funeral was over, I came +home, ate supper and went back in uniform, came back down here and +worked on the third floor at the elevator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you arrived at the third +floor? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say 6 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you arrived at the elevator, +had there been a system set up for admitting people to the third +floor--let's put it this way, excluding people from the third floor? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's what I started doing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody else doing that at the elevator +before you arrived, before you got there? + +Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether there was anybody assigned there +before I got there or not, but there was a Sergeant Ellis, I believe, +and Sergeant Dugger, were there with me when I was working there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you replace anybody? + +Mr. ARNETT. Now, I am not going to say that I did or I didn't, because +I couldn't tell you and be telling you the truth. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get your instructions from? + +Mr. ARNETT. I believe it was Sergeant Ellis, I believe it was, now. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a regular sergeant? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ride on the elevator? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I was in front of it, and as people got off they +had to show their identification. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you recognize Jack Ruby? + +Mr. ARNETT. Did I recognize him? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I mean, did you know Jack Ruby up to this point? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of identification did you ask for when people +got off of the elevator? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, if they was a press reporter, they had a press card, +showing who they were, and they were from everywhere, coming in there. +You would be surprised how far they had traveled that day. You know, I +was--I didn't think about people being there that day, you know, from +so far up. One man told me he was asleep in Chicago. They woke him +up and told him the President had been killed, and he was there that +night, I would say by 8 o'clock. There was one man in particular that I +remember, that came up. He said he was a postal inspector. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Postal inspector? + +Mr. ARNETT. He showed me his identification, said he would like to talk +to Captain Fritz, that he had a key to the post office box down there +that this fellow had, and he wanted to see if that key did fit it, or +he had a key and he wanted to see if it would--was to that box. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many of you were standing there at the third +floor elevator, checking identification of people who got off the +elevator? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say four. Two elevators. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do about people who came up, who said they +came up to see somebody who was being questioned, or in connection with +some other business other than being a photographer or---- + +Mr. ARNETT. If they didn't have an identification of pressmen or ranger +or lawmen of some kind, they were turned back. There were two Spanish +men came up there who wanted to talk to some officer about a ticket, +and we notified whatever officer they wanted to talk to about it, and +told him to go downstairs and see them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a justice of the peace +card, would you have admitted him? + +Mr. ARNETT. A justice of the peace? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a card that said he +was an honorary deputy sheriff, or a courtesy card, some of the law +enforcement agents give out, are you familiar with those? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose someone had showed you one of those, would you +have let him in? + +Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't let anybody in who didn't have proper +identification, without notifying one of these regular officers +standing there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have considered this a proper identification? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember having that come up. Now, there were two +or three rangers there. One of them from Gainesville, Tex. I talked to +him a little bit and the captain of the rangers was there. I don't know +where he was from. He might have been from Dallas. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any lawyers come up? + +Mr. ARNETT. Lawyers? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any newspaper people come up who didn't show +you press cards who appeared to be newspaper people from the way they +conducted themselves? + +Mr. ARNETT. Two or three different times a news reporter would come up +and show a press card and say, "I have got a friend with me that's just +with me". I said he would just have to wait downstairs, and they did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you know, a number of police officers have stated +that they saw Jack Ruby up on the third floor on Friday evening. How do +you imagine that Ruby could have got by? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't know. After I was there that afternoon or that +night, I would say. I wasn't in the afternoon, because I was at that +funeral, but I don't believe Jack Ruby got up there after that time of +night. I didn't see Jack Ruby the entire time of that thing, until he +was in front of me in the basement, the 24th. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have recognized him? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain at the elevator doors all of the time +you were on duty on Friday? + +Mr. ARNETT. Friday night? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say I was there until around 11 o'clock that night. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After 11 o'clock what did you do? + +Mr. ARNETT. I went home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody replace you on those doors? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that was? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give him any instructions as to what he was to do +in admitting people? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you come in on Saturday? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come in on Saturday? + +Mr. ARNETT. Around 2 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how late did you stay? + +Mr. ARNETT. Until about 11. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do the same sort of thing on Saturday? + +Mr. ARNETT. That afternoon I didn't work in front of the elevators, but +I did work over where the stairways are. There is a stairway that you +can walk down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I worked there with an officer. I believe his initials is +L. M. Baker. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there came a time Saturday night when you were +stationed by Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say around 7 or 8 o'clock that night. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you notice while you were there whether any +newspaper people were going in to use the telephone in the homicide +office? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were stationed outside Captain Fritz' door. Do +you mean that you were inside the homicide office? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; I was outside. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you were stationed outside of the homicide +door? + +Mr. ARNETT. In the hallway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that wasn't really the door to Captain Fritz' office? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; his office is back inside, but you had to go through +that door to get to his office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if it wouldn't be clearer if we even edited this +other, instead of Captain Fritz, if we crossed that out and said to the +door to the homicide office? + +Mr. ARNETT. All right. Go ahead and write it in if you want to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me mark it [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. That would sound more reasonable, sensible, anyway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you initial those two places and date them +where I marked them [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. We got the date, is that all right? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That's okay. All right. Now, did you see newspapermen +going in to use the telephone in other offices besides the homicide +bureau? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, really I just tell you the truth, there were so many +people in there and out--what I mean, there was a crowd there, and as +far as seeing what was going on in other offices, I couldn't tell you. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time on Saturday night when you +received some instructions from one of the other officers? + +Mr. ARNETT. Did there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Lieutenant Merrell sometime that night? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time was that? + +Mr. ARNETT. It seemed to me like it was around 9 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And what did Lieutenant Merrell tell you? + +Mr. ARNETT. That Captain Solomon had called him and asked to get a few +reserves down there the next morning to help with the transfer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where was this told to you? + +Mr. ARNETT. It was told to me there at the door, to call Lieutenant +Merrell. I am trying to think where I went and called from. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody came up to you at the homicide office---- + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And said, "Call Lieutenant Merrell"? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you went and made a telephone call? + +Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went in Chief Curry's--not in his office, now, +but into the room where all the secretaries and everything are, and +used the telephone. I am almost certain I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Merrell some place outside of the building +or---- + +Mr. ARNETT. He was at home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He was at home. Is he a regular officer? + +Mr. ARNETT. He is a reserve lieutenant. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He is a reserve lieutenant? + +Mr. ARNETT. He is my assistant. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then Merrell told you that you would have to have some men? + +Mr. ARNETT. That they wanted some men, yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So somebody apparently had called Merrell to tell him +that, is that right? + +Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon, I believe. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Solomon had called Merrell. Now, did you attempt +to locate some reserves that night? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you attempt to locate reserves that were already +in the police department building? + +Mr. ARNETT. I called Lieutenant McCoy, who was on duty, riding in a +squad car, put out a call for him to call me at the office, and he did, +and I gave him those instructions, to call some of his men the next +morning to be there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you tell Lieutenant McCoy that the men +should be there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at this point did you have any understanding as to +generally when Oswald would be moved; did you have any idea generally +when he would be moved? + +Mr. ARNETT. Chief Curry told the newsmen that if they were back by 10 +o'clock they would be plenty early. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Chief Curry tell them that? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than what you heard Chief Curry say, did you receive +any other information? + +Mr. ARNETT. Of what time it would be? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have your conversations with Lieutenant +Merrell and Lieutenant McCoy before or after Chief Curry made the +announcement to the press? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was probably a few minutes before I heard +him say that. I could be wrong about it. I am trying to, you know, +think whether it was or wasn't, but I am not certain about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the call that you issued to Lieutenant McCoy, would +that have gone through the dispatcher's office? + +Mr. ARNETT. For him to call me would--yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And they would have made a record of that, isn't that +right? + +Mr. ARNETT. It would have been recorded, but our conversation wouldn't +have been. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If we were to look at that record, would that be the most +accurate reflection of the approximate time that you had information +concerning the transfer of Oswald; in other words, is that the most +accurate---- + +Mr. ARNETT. It would be recorded all right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. My question is, we want to try to find out just exactly +how soon people would have known that something was going to happen. + +Now, is that record, that would be in the dispatcher's office the most +accurate or earliest record that would have been made of anything you +did in connection with the information you received about the move, +that Oswald was going to be moved the next day? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, it would show--you would have to first check and see +what squad McCoy was riding, to get the number. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. You see? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It wouldn't go out to McCoy specifically? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; it would go to the squad he was riding with. His name +wouldn't have been on there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But now, would the dispatcher's statement over the radio, +would that say number such-and-such call number such-and-such, or would +it say number such-and-such call Captain Arnett? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe it would have said call the office. I don't +believe our names would have been mentioned on the air. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would there be a record of some kind that +we could use to find out what number designated Lieutenant McCoy? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, there would be a work sheet, assignment sheet, of +what squad he was riding in that night, the number of it. For instance, +we will just say 243 or 242 or--I don't know what number it was now, +but I am just saying those numbers, that it's possible he could have +been in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, do you know how long records of that sort are +retained by the police department? + +Mr. ARNETT. I suppose they are kept for a long time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it that you arrived at the Police and +Courts Building the next day? + +Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock a.m. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men would you estimate that you +contacted about this between the time that you got the word from +Lieutenant Merrell and the time you arrived at 9 o'clock? + +Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, I called Lieutenant Merrell--I mean +Lieutenant McCoy, and I saw Lieutenant Nicholson and told him to call +some of his men. If I remember right, though, those are the only two +people I contacted on it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would Lieutenant Merrell have had occasion to contact +any other officers, to give instructions to men? + +Mr. ARNETT. He could have called some of the sergeants and told them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Would there have been any other captains who would +have given instructions similar to ones you gave? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, there are three more captains, but so far as I know +there wasn't any contacted, unless it was Captain Crump and I didn't +contact him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men did you attempt to get in that +next morning? + +Mr. ARNETT. I told them to have 8 or 9 to 10 men. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Each; each lieutenant? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; each one just get two or three men. We had 18. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had 18 all together? + +Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember where you parked your car before you +came in the building on Sunday morning? + +Mr. ARNETT. I either put it in the parking station west of the city +hall on Commerce Street or I parked it on the side street of Commerce. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember entering the building? + +Mr. ARNETT. Do I remember entering the building? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came through? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Down in the basement, from Commerce Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you walked down that Commerce Street entrance, at +that time were there any TV cables strung through there? + +Mr. ARNETT. The cameras were set up on the Commerce side, out there, +and I do believe that there were cables running through the door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is one door there that enters into the hallway +that runs to the records room, as you get down the bottom of the steps +from Commerce Street, you open up the door and you can go down a +hallway toward the records room? + +Mr. ARNETT. Down that way [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Going north? + +Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are also in there, at the bottom of those steps +from the street, two other doors; do you recall that there are two +other doors there? + +Mr. ARNETT. They would be on Harwood Street, then? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. + +Mr. ARNETT. You mean there are two more doors on Commerce Street? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. One of them leads to the engine room. Are you +familiar with that door? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Another one leads into the subbasement. Are you familiar +with that door? + +Mr. ARNETT. Now, that's the one I am talking about I came in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You went down into the subbasement? + +Mr. ARNETT. See here, this is Commerce Street, and you walk down a +flight of steps, and there is a door, and you are going right towards +the records building. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there is a subbasement to that building? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; I misunderstand what you are talking about. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the subbasement in the--where the +police officers' locker room is? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Oh, yes. If that's what you are talking about. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you aware of the fact that there was a +door that led up from the subbasement right up under the stairs, on the +Commerce Street side? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I understand what you mean or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk off of the sidewalk on Commerce Street---- + +Mr. ARNETT. And go down in the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And go down in the basement, you get down there in the +basement and there is a door that goes into the hallway that runs up to +the records room? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two other doors in that area. One of them +is, if I am not mistaken, off to the right, as you face the hallway, +and that goes into the engine room; and there is another area--door, +rather, sort of at your back, as you look down that hallway, and that +goes down in the subbasement. Were you aware of that? + +Mr. ARNETT. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have no recollection of whether any of the TV +wires were strung any place except through the hallway to the records +room? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; I sure wouldn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, when you entered there, where did you go--and +got inside the building? + +Mr. ARNETT. I saw Lieutenant Wiggins, and he asked me if I could +replace one of his regular men that was out there behind the TV cameras +that--in other words, this is the basement [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think I can help you out here. Here is a diagram +of the basement, and here is the jail office and here is the parking +area, here is the ramp from Main Street, here is the ramp going up to +Commerce Street [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. We have got it turned right around to me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, whichever way is easiest for you. All right. Now, +this is coming down from Main. That's Main [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. This is Commerce going out? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right. + +Mr. ARNETT. All right. The TV cameras were set up right in here. They +wanted to keep this open here. They didn't want any cars parking in +here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me draw two TV cameras; is that about where they were +placed, where I have got them there [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, behind the TV cameras---- + +Mr. ARNETT. It's wide enough for two automobiles to park. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Was there a man stationed behind those two TV +cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. There was a regular and they needed him out there, so I put +a reserve officer out there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that reserve officer that you put there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Worley. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now. I am going to put an X--well, you put an X +on the map where you think Worley was, and write his name in there, if +you will, please. + +Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] W-o---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] W-o-r-l-e-y. + +Now, what's your best estimate of what time it was that you put Worley +in there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Shortly after 9 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to say whatever it was, 9:15, whatever you think +it was? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, this may not be exact on the minute, but it will be +within 5 minutes or so [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Okay. + +Mr. ARNETT. I am going to put 9:10 [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. ARNETT. Because I did it as quick as I could after I was asked to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you placed Worley at +that spot? + +Mr. ARNETT. I went into the assembly room, and there were a few men +in there. I walked back outside and I believe that I talked to some +captain that needed five men down at the Elm-Houston Street viaduct, +and I went back in and asked them if they could send five men down +there and they said yes. They assigned five men to go down there and +they were sent down there in a squad car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that? + +Mr. ARNETT. After that, I got some more men out of the assembly room. +They were just coming in, you know, and Sergeant Dean and Sergeant +Putnam, we searched the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you accompany Sergeant Dean? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you accompany him all the way around? + +Mr. ARNETT. In this area, I did [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That's the area, sort of the Main Street portion? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's it (indicating). + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go with Sergeant Dean to the area that's marked on +the map stairs up, behind elevators No. 1 and No. 2. + +Mr. ARNETT. Did I go up the stairs? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Did you go to that area with him? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, this is the area I covered with him, from here, all +this right in here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The reporter can't see that, but you are indicating--we +have to get this down in words, so that the members of the Commission, +Chief Justice Warren and so forth will understand what we are talking +about here. + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating that you searched with Sergeant Dean +that portion of the garage which includes the elevators No. 1 and No. 2 +and the doorway to the stair up, correct? + +Mr. ARNETT. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got to those elevators, what did you and +Sergeant Dean do? + +Mr. ARNETT. As we searched them out, we placed men in this area +as we searched it out, there was a regular officer stationed here +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular officer stationed---- + +Mr. ARNETT. At the elevators [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put on the map where that regular officer was, +and put an X there? + +Mr. ARNETT. It was here in front of these elevators [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to write regular officer--do you know his name? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't. [Spelling] R-e---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular, yes. All right. Now, were these elevators +operating, these elevators No. 1 and No. 2, were they in operation? + +Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether they were or not. They wasn't +working at the time I was there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You didn't see any boys, Negro boys in there? + +Mr. ARNETT. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door at this entranceway to the stairs up? + +Mr. ARNETT. Did you say are there a door there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door there; do you remember if there is a door +there? + +Mr. ARNETT. There is a door here that goes into this [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the first aid station? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. But now, I couldn't say whether there are or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall what investigation was made in +the area of that doorway there, toward the stairs up? What check you +and Sergeant Dean made? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, they probably were finishing their investigation here +and we were back over here. There is a building extends out from the +walls, and it doesn't go completely back against this ramp. There is +room for a man to walk in there, and I went and got a flashlight and---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to talk about this area right here. Do you +recall whether you and Sergeant Dean went over to that doorway that +leads to the stairs up? + +Mr. ARNETT. I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't go? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Did you go to that area where the first-aid station +is? + +Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make that part of the search there. We started +and came around this way, searched all these cars down through here, +and this building back here that I am telling you about, that doesn't +extend against the wall. I went and got a flashlight and Sergeant ---- +I will think of his name in a minute, reserve. His name starts with a H. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's okay. His name isn't necessary. You went back +there searched the---- + +Mr. ARNETT. We taken a flashlight in there and I held the flashlight +for him, and he got up in there and I give him the flashlight, and he +taken the flashlight and walked all back in here. There was room for a +man to walk in there [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are indicating is an area behind the jail +office---- + +Mr. ARNETT. No; it's not behind it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, here is the jail office [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, the one I am talking about, here is the ramp, see, +and the one I am talking about is like this, doesn't go completely +against the ramp. There is room for a man to walk in behind there +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than this northern portion of the basement, did +you search any other area with Sergeant Dean? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I stayed right in here. Some more reserves came in +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where I was? + +(The record was here read by the reporter.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After you searched the basement, where did you go? + +Mr. ARNETT. After I searched this portion of the basement [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I stayed right here. That's where the cars come in and out +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place an A where you stationed yourself +after the search of the basement, and would you put a circle +around that; would you write around that, after search of basement +[indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] B-a-s-p---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] B-a-s-e-m-e-n-t. Now, captain, how long did you +remain there at that position? + +Mr. ARNETT. Oh, it seems like 10 or 15 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go? + +Mr. ARNETT. J. C. Hunt took my place, another reserve officer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Replaced by J. C. Hunt? + +Mr. ARNETT. Hunt. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After about 15 minutes. Now, then where did you go? + +Mr. ARNETT. I had sent some men outside---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; where did you go? + +Mr. ARNETT. I went to different ones that were, you know, around in +here, of the reserves [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You circulated in the basement? + +Mr. ARNETT. In the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make assignments? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What assignments did you make? + +Mr. ARNETT. I sent Sergeant Cox and Sergeant ---- this little sergeant +that I was trying to name while ago--Could I call the man and ask him +that boy's name? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That's not really important. + +Mr. ARNETT. It isn't? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; did you assign people outside of the building? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make assignments to the various intersections? + +Mr. ARNETT. To keep people back. They were over here on the Commerce +south-side street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ARNETT. Keep people back off, on the sidewalk, and not let them on +the street [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You sent all your men to Commerce? + +Mr. ARNETT. No; not all of them. I sent three men up there at that +particular time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you send your other men? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, earlier, before this, I sent one to Commerce and +Pearl to work a signal light that had gone out of order. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Main and Pearl? + +Mr. ARNETT. Main and Pearl? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Elm and Pearl? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not before the shooting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignments on Elm Street? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignment on Main Street? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember of any. I did have a man in front of the +Credit Building--what do they call it, the Employees Credit Association +or Credit Union or something another. I did have a man up on the ramp +of it. That's out on Commerce Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you assign Mr. Newman to a place in the basement? + +Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make the assignment myself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave the basement at any time after this +particular period that we are talking about, when you made these +assignments, did you leave the basement area? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. Not until after the shooting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. While you were in the basement, were you in the +garage and ramp area the entire time? + +Mr. ARNETT. After I left this particular spot here [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; where we marked the A? + +Mr. ARNETT. I was in this area right in here, and about 11:05 I took my +stand right in here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you spent your entire time then in the---- + +Mr. ARNETT. Basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Area between the entrance to the garage at the bottom of +the Commerce Street ramp and the portion where the Main Street ramp +narrows at the bottom, or widens out at the bottom? + +Mr. ARNETT. [No response.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you put a mark on the map where you were, where +you stationed yourself at about 11:05? + +Mr. ARNETT. Let's see if we understand each other here on this. Is this +the office where they come out of the jail [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. + +Mr. ARNETT. And this comes out so far and then this is the ramp +[indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. + +Mr. ARNETT. All right. I was right along in here then [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an A there, also? + +Mr. ARNETT. Okay [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And put a circle around that. + +Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you mark the time that you think you first +arrived there? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say 11:05. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How do you fix that time 11:05? + +Mr. ARNETT. I believe I looked at my watch. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write up a report on this on November 24? + +Mr. ARNETT. Did I write it up? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I made the statement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a letter to Chief Curry? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, that's the letter [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you didn't mention in that letter anything about +11:05. Was the first time that you thought about 11:05 when you were +interviewed by the FBI agents on December 4? + +Mr. ARNETT. You mean was that the first time I thought about it being +11:05 when I went there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, no; I wouldn't say it was the first time I thought +about it. It might have been that I didn't think about it when I was +writing that letter. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, captain, if you were to place the time that you +stationed yourself here, in terms of how much before--well, in terms +of the time that the armored car was in the ramp, did you place +yourself before or---- + +Mr. ARNETT. It was here before I went there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. This was after the armored car arrived? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before Lee Oswald was brought down? + +Mr. ARNETT. After I placed myself over there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, around 15 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time Oswald was brought down? + +Mr. ARNETT. I know what time the ambulance was called. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was that? + +Mr. ARNETT. 11:21. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you stationed yourself at that point, were the +floodlights from the TV cameras on? + +Mr. ARNETT. Were they on? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, they had been on all the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. They had been on all the time? + +Mr. ARNETT. They wasn't alive all the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the cameras weren't alive? + +Mr. ARNETT. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you searched the basement, were the +floodlights on from those TV cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well now, whether they were on or not, I don't know. I +believe the machine was lighted up. Now, whether that's what you +call---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean the floodlights. + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say either way on that, because I +am not going to tell you anything I don't think is the truth. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure the floodlights were on when you stationed +yourself at the point that we have marked as point A at the bottom of +the ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say lights were on. Now, whether they were +floodlights or not, I couldn't tell you. I don't know whether you say +just a light fitting there was a floodlight or the lights in the camera +or---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about the lights they use to illuminate +the picture they are going to take, throw out on the subject? + +Mr. ARNETT. I will say the cameras had a light in them. I will say +that. Now, whether you call them floodlights or not, I don't know. Now, +they tell me that they can be on and not be taking pictures unless +there is a red light burning. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't +know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Over where these TV cameras are, were there +some lights placed in association with those cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. All I can remember of, and I am trying to tell you the +truth---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Is that the light was on in the camera. You know what I +mean, that [indicating] was burning. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if you have taken home movies or anything +like that, or just had your picture taken in a photographer's studio, +often they beam a lot of lights down? + +Mr. ARNETT. I know what you are talking about there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any lights like that over by these TV cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any like that, but they had to be for it +to be alive, I guess, but I don't remember them being on when this +happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Oswald came out you were where we put this A at the +bottom of the ramp, when you had occasion to look off into the garage +area, was it possible to distinguish objects, or distinguish people or +cars in there? + +Mr. ARNETT. There was a car came out the ramp, after we got in line, +and went out the ramp on North Main, up the ramp, out on North Main. We +broke up---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you this simple question, as you looked +out over in there, could you see cars or people or anything over +behind those TV cameras; could you see anything beyond those TV cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I saw this car that was coming out. Now, that was +before Lee Oswald was brought down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that car before it came out of the garage? + +Mr. ARNETT. I saw it coming out of the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see it before it came to the ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So do you have any recollection as to whether +you could see objects in that area? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't, I sure don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you watched that car come out of the garage? + +Mr. ARNETT. Uh huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you watch it go? + +Mr. ARNETT. It went out the Main Street entrance, up the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see it get to the top of the ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. I didn't look at it as it entered the top of the ramp. We +were getting back into position, but we did have to break up, because +we were all the way across the ramp, and we had to break up for it to +go out, but you know how you would do, you would back up against the +wall or something out of the way, for it to go by. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you had to break up. Was there a line formed +across there before the car came out? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, we were standing just, you know, side of one another +all the way across there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Sam Pierce's car? + +Mr. ARNETT. They say it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. They say it was. Do you remember how many people were in +that car? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the last car that came out of the garage before +Lee Oswald was shot? + +Mr. ARNETT. There was one come out and backed up in position. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but was that the last one that went up the Main +Street ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. I said there was two cars to start with, and some of them +said there wasn't but one, and I said I guess there was just one, but +I thought at that time I remembered two cars going out, but I am not +going to swear that there were, because I could be wrong about that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I know that, but I want to know just what you remember +and whatever your recollection is. Then we will try to see how good it +really is. But what do you think you saw when this car--you say you +think you saw two cars go up the ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. I think so. That's my honest opinion about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That's what I want. Now, when you saw that first car go up +the ramp, how long would you say after the first car went up did the +second car go up? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, it wasn't very long. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you watch that first car go up the +ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you were standing here where we have marked the A +and as you looked over toward the armored car, did you have occasion to +look over at that armored car? + +Mr. ARNETT. It was straight in front of me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That was up near the top of the Commerce Street ramp, +wasn't it? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; or just inside. I don't believe it was all the +way under the shed. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Chief Batchelor up there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Butler up there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Captain Butler? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember Captain Butler. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sergeant Dean, did you see him up in that area? + +Mr. ARNETT. Sergeant Dean. I believe I did. There was a bottle fell out +of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see the bottle fall out? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you actually see the bottle from where you were +standing? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you had occasion to look up the Main Street +ramp---- + +Mr. ARNETT. Well now, my back was to the Main Street ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Not the entire time; there were times when you looked up +that ramp too, wasn't there? You were down there for quite awhile? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't remember just, you know, turning around and +looking back up that way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not there was an officer +stationed up there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; there was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him up there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you know who he was? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; he was a regular officer, though. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, a regular officer patrolman has a green patch on his +shoulder up here. A reserve officer has a white patch; a radio accident +investigator has a red patch. I believe traffic wears a brown. He was a +regular patrolman. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see him before he got up to the top of that +ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. Did I see him before he got up there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. You mean did I see him going up there? Now, I may have seen +him in the basement, before he was sent up there. I don't know about +that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have remembered him, though; do you remember +seeing him in the basement before he was sent up? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not that I recall; no sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him walk up the ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So from where you were standing, I take it you could see +the green patch on his---- + +Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Coat. And you wear glasses, don't you? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not all the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you wearing glasses that time? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I use them mostly to read with or some work like +this [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is your eyesight without glasses 20-20? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; if they was I wouldn't be wearing glasses. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you still tell me---- + +Mr. ARNETT. I see off at a distance good, but I can't see to read a +newspaper or something, a fine print or something close to me, but off +at a distance--I drive without glasses. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You and I are sitting here maybe 6 or 8 feet away. Take +off your glasses. Do you have any trouble seeing me [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; not a bit. Where I have my trouble is fine print +and something like that [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your glasses off a second. + +Mr. ARNETT. Okay [complying]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hold up something here, and do you see a +colored spot on there [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. I see a red one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And I am holding this dictaphone package, about 10 feet +away from you, aren't I [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many red spots do you see on there? + +Mr. ARNETT. I only see one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. One big one? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one blurred one? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't know what you call a big one. It's about like my +little finger, end of it [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell what sort of shape it is? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it look like a triangle or an arrow? + +Mr. ARNETT. It looks like it goes up to a point and comes down to a +point and goes straight across the bottom [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that is pretty good for a man +born in 1911. This thing that I am holding up is a red arrow which +appears on the back of a Dictaphone belt holder, and this arrow, the +stem part of the arrow is not more than a quarter of an inch long. The +pointed part of the arrow is unquestionably the most prominent part of +it. + +I am going to ask you to hold it up and I am going to stand back +here and I will tell you that I have got my glasses on, but I am not +corrected at 20-20 vision. If I didn't know how that came up I would +have some difficulty telling what that is [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. Is that right? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I think that's pretty good. So you could see this +man's green patch on his---- + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. He was a patrolman. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did you ever have occasion to look up that ramp? +How many times did you have occasion to look up that ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's like I say, I don't remember just turning around +and, you know, just looking up the ramp, but maybe walking into this +place to get into position or something or other, I was facing that way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Sort of looking around generally up there; I mean as you +walked around in this area we have marked "A," did you from time to +time glance up in this general direction? + +Mr. ARNETT. From where you marked "A," I couldn't see from there. You +are talking about this "A" here [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about this "A" here at the bottom of the +ramp [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes. I could from there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you glance up from time to time? + +Mr. ARNETT. I won't say I did, because I don't remember whether I did +or didn't. More than likely I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now; did you glance back at the TV cameras from time to +time? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say I did; yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after this second car moved out, did you have +occasion to glance over at the TV cameras at any time, toward the TV +cameras at any time? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say, just right offhand, I would say I looked +around, but as far as just watching the TV cameras, I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you observe what any other officers were doing in +your area on that side of the ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. There was a man to the side of me, to my right, that was in +civilian clothes, and was a news reporter that had a microphone in his +hand. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he to your right or was he in front of you? + +Mr. ARNETT. He was to my right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Directly to your right. Now, where was Officer Harrison? + +Mr. ARNETT. Right in front of me and a little to my left. In other +words, we were standing facing this direction and Officer Harrison +was more or less like this. I was looking over his right shoulder +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were looking over his right shoulder. Were you pressed +right up against him at the time Lee Oswald moved out? + +Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't say I was pressed against him. I was +directly--you know, next to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody behind you? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to state for the record that we have here a +Mr. Robert Davis with the attorney general's office with the State of +Texas, who has been sitting in on these hearings, and he just walked +into the room, and I am holding up, at about the same distance that +I held this thing from Captain Arnett--is that right, Captain Arnett +[indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am holding this about the same distance from Mr. Davis, +and I am asking him if he sees any colored items on the back of this +Dictaphone card that I am holding up [indicating]? + +Mr. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many colored things do you see? + +Mr. DAVIS. Six. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He has got better---- + +Mr. DAVIS. Five dots and a colored arrow. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as this arrow was concerned, how would you +describe that arrow; can you see the stem on the arrow? + +Mr. DAVIS. See what? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Stem on the arrow. + +Mr. DAVIS. Yes; it's fat, kind of heavy, bulky stem on the arrow. Looks +more like a house turned on its side than its does an arrow. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got 20-20 vision? + +Mr. DAVIS. (Nods head.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't wear glasses? + +Mr. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The record should reflect he did a better job than you. + +Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett: I am going to ask you to step to +the back of the room over there. + +Mr. ARNETT. Back where? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Step over to the doorway there. + +Mr. ARNETT. Okay. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, take your glasses off. You didn't have them on. I am +going to hold up a card here, and can you see the colors on that card? + +Mr. ARNETT. I see green and white [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. See any other colors [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. There is a little lighter up at the top of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell me whether you see any objects on there or +whether you see a circle or a band or something exact or what do you +see on there [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, to that end I see something light running up and +down, in the upper part of it, just a portion of it is a lighter--kind +of a blue color. Then it's a green, then down closer to your thumb it's +white [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me state for the record that what I held up was +a Mobil gas credit card, which has in the top half of it a band that +has a blue background on it, and against that blue background there is +a picture of a Mobil gas station, which is white, and some background +scenery which runs behind the Mobil station in some sort of a band, +which is green, looks like grass and trees, and just above the blue +field there is a completely white area, and in that white area there is +written the word credit card, and there is a Mobil gas seal. + +I think that is a fair description of what's on this card [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are now seated close enough to me now that you can +see it with your glasses on [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Davis, do you think that is a fair description of it? + +Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think that is a fair description of it. + +Mr. ARNETT. Do you think I got anywhere close to it? + +Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand there was nobody standing behind you? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to your left? + +Mr. ARNETT. To my left? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; as you faced the direction that Lee Oswald was coming +from? + +Mr. ARNETT. There was another reporter with a pencil and pad to my +left. Then I said Captain King and another man beyond him that I don't +know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were these people in the same line that Blackie +Harrison was in? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. They were in the line with me. Blackie Harrison +was in front of me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Captain +Arnett, 3-25-64," and this is Exhibit 5034, and I am going to start +another one here. + +All right. Now, Captain, I want you to put an "A" on this copy of the +map where you were standing, put an "A" where you were standing when +Oswald came out [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Okay. Now, this is the brick building here. Now, I want to +be sure that I am looking at this right [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Okay. There was a news reporter [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, put an "A" where you were standing. + +Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, put an H in the circle around it where +Blackie Harrison was standing. + +Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the other officer that you said was to your +left? + +Mr. ARNETT. A news reporter and Captain King, and I don't know where +this other one was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "K" where Captain King was standing, and put an "X" +where that newspaper reporter was. + +Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody between Captain King and the +railing? + +Mr. ARNETT. There was one person, but I couldn't tell you whether he +was in civilian clothes or who they were or anything about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put a question mark there. All right. You put a +question there. + +Mr. ARNETT. Got it wrong, didn't I? [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have changed it. You put a dot to your right where +there was a newsman? + +Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the man that had the microphone? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody in front of that man? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes. They were lined up down this wall here. I don't know +whether there was anybody standing directly in front of him. I wouldn't +say [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to Blackie Harrison's left? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to remember these people that you put on +the chart here? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, standing there with them, well---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see photographs, did you see movies of this after +Oswald was shot? + +Mr. ARNETT. I have seen them; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see---- + +Mr. ARNETT. That didn't have any bearing on that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to see yourself in those movies? + +Mr. ARNETT. I am in some magazines. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to see yourself in the magazines? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, Sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that how you were able to distinguish---- + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Those people? + +Mr. ARNETT. Huh, uh. This letter that was written the 27th was before I +ever saw any films or magazines, either one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do the magazine shots which you have seen, in which +you have seen yourself, do they show the man to your left, who you +thought was a newsman? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show Captain King? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How is it that just you come through on these magazine +shots? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know how they come through, but the Dallas +Morning News and the Times Herald that had the big complete picture, +all the front page was completely covered, I am not in it. Now, this +newsman that was on my right, it shows the microphone but it doesn't +show me at all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What magazine did you see yourself in? + +Mr. ARNETT. Four Dark Days in History, Four Days, Kennedy From +Childhood to--I don't remember just exactly what it did say on that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you happen to remember in Four Dark Days, what page +your picture was on? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. But if you got one I can show it to you, but it's +not before the shooting, no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, this is the shot that's taken after the shooting? + +Mr. ARNETT. Shows me scuffling with---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you haven't seen a picture of yourself standing there +in that line, have you? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where did you see that picture? + +Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In Four Days you saw that? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. And it didn't show anybody standing beside me, +either. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show Blackie Harrison in that picture? + +Mr. ARNETT. I believe it does. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, there is only one picture of you in Four Days? + +Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. No. There is three. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Three pictures of you? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they all on the same page? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember for sure whether they are on the same page +or not, but they are in the same connection. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. They are all in connection with the shooting? + +Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to tell you what they are? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. One of them shows me standing like I told you. The next one +shows me in the scuffle with Jack Ruby from here up, doesn't show any +other part (indicating). + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Just shows the top of your head? + +Mr. ARNETT. From right here up. The next one shows the top of my +cap, from my back, following Oswald out to the ambulance. That's it +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. There is only one that shows you standing there? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's the only one I have seen. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show anything but your face? + +Mr. ARNETT. From about right here up [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About the middle of your chest up? + +Mr. ARNETT. Something like that. One in Four Days in History shows me +standing looking down like this, and L. C. Graves is wrestling with the +gun, before I took hold of Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see Ruby move forward out of the +crowd? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not out of the crowd. He was in front of me before I saw +him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him move in front of you? + +Mr. ARNETT. I can give you an illustration better than I can tell you. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Illustrate. + +Mr. ARNETT. Okay. I was standing like this, facing this way +(indicating). + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's put Mr. Davis up in front of you, +about where Blackie Harrison was. + +Mr. ARNETT. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You place him up there. And Oswald is going to be to your +right. + +Mr. ARNETT. I was looking over his shoulder [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. ARNETT. The first thing---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about that far away from him [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about 4 inches away from Blackie Harrison? + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And looking over his right shoulder? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Lee Oswald came out----[indicating]---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking to your right? + +Mr. ARNETT. To my right. Lee Oswald came out, the two detectives, +Leavelle and Graves, Leavelle was handcuffed to Oswald. Graves was on +the left side of him, had him by the arm. The first time I saw Jack +Ruby he was just about in this position, just pow, that's just how +quick it happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you get back there in the position where you first +saw Jack. + +Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. You get where you saw Jack [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that about how far Jack was from---- + +Mr. ARNETT. From Oswald when I saw him, I guess [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that how far he was from Harrison? + +Mr. ARNETT. He might have been a little further out this way from him, +but (indicating). + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the first time you saw Ruby, Ruby was +standing forward, he was standing between--in front of Harrison in the +direction of the Commerce Street ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was off to Harrison's left? + +Mr. ARNETT. He was to Harrison's left a little bit. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction was Ruby facing when you saw him? + +Mr. ARNETT. Just as you and I [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Facing almost directly at Oswald? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point? + +Mr. ARNETT. In this position [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody standing behind his back? + +Mr. ARNETT. Did I see anybody behind Ruby's back? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who would have been directly--as you are +standing, directly toward Ruby's right, which would be up the Main +Street ramp, who would have been standing right in that position along +the row that you were in, directly to Ruby's right, toward the Main +Street ramp [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I named this newsman with a pad, I mean, I said--I +didn't know his name. I said he was to my right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes; left. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, that man was to your left. Was Ruby right +in front of him or was he right in front of Captain King? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, he was just to the left of Blackie Harrison. Now, +whether he was out in front in this manner right in front of King, I +wouldn't say for certain [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether Ruby was a different man +from the man you saw next to you holding the pad? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, yes; I would say he was a different man. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you able to state that? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't believe the newsman was dressed like Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that newsman again? + +Mr. ARNETT. Did I see him again; is that the question? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. After the shooting? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say whether I did or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe the dress of that newsman; did he +have on a hat? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe he did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he wear glasses? + +Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a suit on? + +Mr. ARNETT. I thought he had a kind of raincoat, jacket on, something +of that type. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you see that man around before Oswald was +shot? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I had been in this position, I said 15 minutes, and +so far as I know Blackie Harrison had been standing in front of me all +that time, and this man beside me, I believe, had been there all this +time. I believe they had all been there all this time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about 1 minute before Oswald was shot there was a car +that drove up and split the lines up? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. I don't know whether it was 1 minute. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But shortly before? + +Mr. ARNETT. Shortly before there was; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man standing over next to you before the car went +up the ramp; was that man in the raincoat next to you before the car +went up the ramp? + +Mr. ARNETT. I believe so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think he was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think I remember him being there with me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Captain King about this man? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain in the police building after +the shooting of Oswald? + +Mr. ARNETT. After the shooting? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Whenever he shot Oswald, I made a dive for him, and L. C. +Graves, the detective, had him, and he had him like this, had the gun +like this, and they were scuffling. I got him by the leg. I don't know +what leg I got him by, but I got him by the leg, and I would say there +were seven or eight of us had ahold of him. We carried him back into +the jail office, and while we had him down, handcuffed, he said, "I am +Jack Ruby. All of you know me." They had him handcuffed by that time. +I turned him loose and walked back over here where Oswald was laying +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this: how long were you in +the building the rest of the day? + +Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went home about 1:30. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, by the time you went home had you heard any rumors +about how Ruby got down into that basement? + +Mr. ARNETT. That day? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. I have heard rumors since then, but I +didn't that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Davis has left the room, +and I hope the record reflects that we had a short break, a very short +break, about 2 minutes, and we are back and ready to go. Would you read +the last part back? + +(The record was here read by the reporter.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex., +Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5035, and I am going to hand this to +you. I am going to ask you, Captain Arnett, if what I am showing you is +the dictaphone belt case with the red arrow on it that you identified +earlier in the testimony [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to initial it [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the side which I have got the identification on +the side that I showed you? + +Mr. ARNETT. It was up like this. Yes [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the side [indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you sign that? + +Mr. ARNETT. Just sign it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I am also going to mark for +identification, Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5036. + +Now, this is the diagram of the basement on which you placed markings +indicating where you and Harrison and King and the reporter were +standing, [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Just before Oswald came out? + +Mr. ARNETT. [Nods head.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald came out, did you see a man right +next to Blackie Harrison's left? + +Mr. ARNETT. To his left? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. As he would face up Commerce Street? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As Blackie would face Commerce Street, did you see a man +to his left? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well now, there were men out, you know, on the camera and +stuff, to his left, if that's what you are talking about. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody standing to his left, other than men +manning the cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say for certain that I did, because he may +have been the last one in that row, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he was in the front row, wasn't he; Blackie? + +Mr. ARNETT. He was in front of me; yes. And I would say he was in the +front row, but---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a solid line of people between Blackie and the +TV cameras, in the row that Blackie was standing in? + +Mr. ARNETT. It seems to me like there was somebody by the side of +Blackie, but I am not going to say that there were because the first +time I saw Jack Ruby he was to his left, coming up. Now, whether there +was somebody right beside of Blackie Harrison, I am not going to say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time you saw Jack he was sort of hunched over +with the gun? + +Mr. ARNETT. He was hunched over. He was in this position, and whenever +he shot him he went down like that [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby when he was moving toward Oswald? + +Mr. ARNETT. I saw him moving from where I told you, up to Oswald. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby standing still? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was a solid line of +people or how that line of people was from Blackie Harrison on to the +TV cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, like I said, I think there was somebody the other +side of him, but I am not going to be certain about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were there any other police officers up in the same +row that Blackie Harrison was in? + +Mr. ARNETT. They were people lined up all the way up the wall and on +this wall over here, they were lined all the way up to the edge of it +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett, did you receive +instructions before Oswald came out as to where these newspaper people +were to stand? + +Mr. ARNETT. Where the newspaper--no; I did not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when some men convened around Officer +Jones, Captain Jones, prior to Oswald's coming down, when Jones gave +some instructions? + +Mr. ARNETT. Sergeant Jones? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Captain Jones. + +Mr. ARNETT. Captain Jones. I remember seeing Captain Jones there, but I +don't remember any group being around him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you have any instructions to the effect that you +were not to permit newspaper people to be over here on the Main Street +side? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I did not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any instructions that you were to try to keep +these newspaper people over toward the entrance of the garage? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what instructions did you have as to what you were +to do there? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, the main instructions I had was to--when we was +placing these men around, searching the building, see that there was +nobody in there at all, other than was supposed to be. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But that was an hour before? + +Mr. ARNETT. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you knew Oswald was going to come out that +door from the jail, jail office? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have some idea that you were supposed to keep +the area free? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, wasn't supposed to let anybody in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if newspaper people had crowded up in front of him, +did you have any instructions as to what you were to do? + +Mr. ARNETT. I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know if any of the other people had +instructions like that? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you write the report that has been marked as +Exhibit 5033? + +Mr. ARNETT. When did I write it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. ARNETT. That one was--let me see, now. That happened on Sunday, I +went to Tippit's funeral on Monday, I went to Corpus Christi on Monday +night, I was in Corpus on Tuesday. I believe I wrote that on Wednesday +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Now, Sunday was the 24th---- + +Mr. ARNETT. Monday would have been the 25th, Tuesday the 26th, be the +27th. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you indicate on here, would you put +composed November 27, and initial that [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. How do you spell composed? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] C-o-m-p-o-s-e-d. + +Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] C-o-m-p---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling]--o-s-e-d. + +Mr. ARNETT. November 27? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, in between this time, in between the +time that you left the police building on the 24th and the time you +prepared this statement, did you talk with any of the members of the +police department about the events? + +Mr. ARNETT. You mean how it was--how they were set up or something? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Any conversations--did you talk with any of the police +officers? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well now, on Monday, after this on Sunday, I was down +there and called some men to meet me out at the Baptist Church on +Beckley, to work traffic for the Tippit funeral. I talked to Lieutenant +Pierce. He asked me if I would get some reserves out there to help, +that they was going to need some, and I said I will call and get some +and go out there myself, and I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Pierce about the things that had +happened on November 24? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of now. Not that I remember about. We were +talking about this one particular area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever talk with Pierce at that time, prior to +the time you wrote this statement, did you ever talk with Pierce about +how Ruby got into the basement? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I did prior to that letter or not. I +have heard since then that when Lieutenant Pierce drove out, that the +officers stepped out to stop the traffic and that Jack Ruby said that's +when he walked in. Now, when I heard that I couldn't say, the date, but +I don't know, but I have heard that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you prepared the statement, did you talk with any +of the reserves or any members of the police department, about how Ruby +might have got down in the basement? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems that maybe some people would say, well, he +must have come in with a camera or something, you know, like that. As +far as just individuals talking to anybody about it, I don't remember, +you know, just particularly talking about that one thing of how he got +in there. But I am confident that he wasn't in there. I am confident +of that, as I am that Jack Ruby shot Oswald, and I saw that. I may be +wrong about it, but now, that's just the way I feel about it, that he +wasn't in that basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you think he was? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know where he was. But as far as him being in +there any length of time, I just don't believe he was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have seen him if he came across the railing? + +Mr. ARNETT. Would I have seen him? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like I would have, but I don't know that I +would have. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think you would have? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, you know, if you are just looking off, like this, and +something happens over here in 10 or 12 feet of you, you will almost---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't your attention focused almost all the time--after +Pierce's car went up the ramp, wasn't your attention focused towards +the jail office? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say yes, most of the time, but you can just +let anything--you can be driving down the road and a bird or something +fly by, you will get a glance of it, and I believe if he had come over +that rail I would have got the glance off of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see things happening over by that railing? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say that you could or you couldn't, +but I believe if he had come over that railing, I believe I would have +saw him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, if he had come over the railing behind the line +that you were standing in you wouldn't have seen him, would you? + +Mr. ARNETT. No. Sure wouldn't have. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you were drawing a straight line across +your shoulders--well, let's not do it that way. You have got this +thing marked on the map here where the A is and where I placed the TV +cameras. If you were drawing a straight line across the Main Street +ramp, where would that line--how far would that line have come from the +TV cameras that I have placed here [indicating]? + +Mr. ARNETT. How far would it come? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In other words, how far up the [indicating]---- + +Mr. ARNETT. I would say a straight line behind the cameras would have +been about like Mr. Davis from me [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am asking you here, I am asking you to tell me +about how far up the Main Street ramp you were standing from the TV +cameras; would you say that the TV cameras and you were the same +distance up the Main Street ramp or they were a little bit in front of +you? + +Mr. ARNETT. They were a little in front of me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How much; by a little bit, would you say? + +Mr. ARNETT. Well, 5 feet. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 5 feet in front of you. Could they have been less +than 5 feet? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe they would have been. They could have. I am +just roughly guessing now. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there people congregated around those TV +cameras, in front of those TV cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. In front of it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any of them being in front of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about along the sides of the TV cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, there was a man at each one of the +cameras, operating it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But there weren't other people crowded down around them? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not that I remember; no, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, wouldn't Captain King and that newspaperman have +blocked your side vision over in the direction of the TV cameras? + +Mr. ARNETT. It could have. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had walked down that Main Street ramp would +you have seen him? + +Mr. ARNETT. Not without turning around and looking back, I wouldn't +have; no, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to turn back and look around +after Rio Pierce's car went up? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean you don't remember or---- + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember looking around, no sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody suggest to you before you wrote this statement +that you should have seen Ruby in there? + +Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody ask you if you did see Ruby in there before +you wrote this statement? + +Mr. ARNETT. Other than I just said, I saw him just like I have told you. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who asked you to write this statement? + +Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon ever ask you before you wrote the +statement whether you saw Ruby in there? + +Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall that he did. But I told him just like I told +you, the first time I saw him, where he was, the position he was, so +there would be no cause for him to ask me that, because I am telling +you the truth about where he was when I saw him. He was too close. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you feel---- + +Mr. ARNETT. Whenever I had ahold of him, I felt like there could be +some more shots fired. I believe you would have felt the same way, +because I wasn't figuring on that first one being fired. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am going to ask you to sign all these things +[indicating]. + +Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you to sign them, and I assume that when you sign +them you are indicating that you think they are accurate and wouldn't +make any changes to them? + +Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. I have tried to tell you just as near the truth +as I can. Just sign it or---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Just sign it and put the date. Now, will you sign that one +and this one here [indicating]? + +Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I interviewed you before the beginning of this +deposition? + +Mr. ARNETT. Before tonight? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Has any other member of the staff interviewed you before I +took your deposition? + +Mr. ARNETT. The only one that interviewed me was the FBI men, came to +my home, one of them was from Memphis, Tenn., and I don't know where +the other one came from. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't have to ask you this, but we say it for the record +anyhow. If anything should come to your attention which you think would +be helpful to us or which you find maybe you want to make a correction +in anything that you have told us, will you come to us and---- + +Mr. ARNETT. Absolutely. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And advise us? + +Mr. ARNETT. I am for you 100 percent. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I certainly appreciate your assistance. That's all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BUFORD LEE BEATY + +The testimony of Buford Lee Beaty was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. For the record, I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of +the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. + +This Commission has been appointed pursuant to Executive Order of +President Johnson issued on November 29, 1963, and pursuant to a joint +resolution of Congress No. 137. + +Under the provisions of the Resolution and Executive order, the +Commission has authority to establish rules and procedure which they +have done, and pursuant to those rules and procedures I have been +designated to come here to Dallas to take your sworn deposition. + +You are appearing here by virtue of a letter which was sent from the +general counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry. + +Actually, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice. However, +under the rules of the Commission, if you want to, you can waive the +notice, and we can go forward without the actual letter, I will ask you +a little later whether you want a letter, or waive it. + +The scope of this investigation is that we are directed to investigate +and evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts that +surround the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent +murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Our particular concern in calling you is in connection with the death +of Lee Oswald, although I am going to ask you some questions that +will develop a little background that people who are working on the +assassination of the President can use to decide whether you were in +a position to provide some physical action that something might have +happened in which they are particularly concerned about and as to which +they need more witnesses. + +But our primary concern in talking to you is to find out the matters +which might be relevant to Ruby, although we are interested in anything +else that you might know of your own knowledge that is valuable to the +Commission. + +Let me ask you first of all, would you like us to get you a written +letter. + +Mr. BEATY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He is shaking his head no. I might say, she has to take +your answer down. + +Mr. BEATY. I am sorry; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, also, you are entitled to an attorney. + +Mr. BEATY. What do I need an attorney for? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people come with attorneys. I don't want you +to feel that maybe if you come with an attorney that you are prejudiced. + +Mr. BEATY. I don't need an attorney, I don't think. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to +tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. BEATY. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your name for the record? + +Mr. BEATY. Buford Lee Beaty. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Beaty? + +Mr. BEATY. 404 Freeman, Garland. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born? + +Mr. BEATY. July 10, 1924. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? + +Mr. BEATY. Police department, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been so employed? + +Mr. BEATY. Fifteen and a half years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department? + +Mr. BEATY. Narcotics. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been there? + +Mr. BEATY. Altogether, about 4 years. This last time, about 6 months, +something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the earlier period that you were with the +narcotics bureau? + +Mr. BEATY. From 1957 to 1960. And then I came back this time in June. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now from 1960 until you came back, what bureau? + +Mr. BEATY. Burglary and theft. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold a particular rank? + +Mr. BEATY. Detective; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ruby announced that you would recognize +him? + +Mr. BEATY. Oh, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you happened to first become +familiar with Mr. Ruby? + +Mr. BEATY. When I first met him? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. BEATY. Well, I wrote him a traffic ticket one time about 1951, or +something like that. But I knew of him before then. + +He had a joint down on South Ervay, and he was always calling the +police to pick up drunks and one thing and another. Everybody knows +Jack Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It was the Silver Spur? + +Mr. BEATY. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with your duties in the narcotics +bureau, did you ever have occasion to talk with him or conduct any +investigation in connection with him? + +Mr. BEATY. About narcotics specifically? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, in connection with any of your duties, investigating +duties with the police department, as opposed to traffic tickets? Let +me ask you that question generally. + +Mr. BEATY. Not that I ever recall. I can't think of anything +specifically at all where I could say I had occasion to interrogate him +about anything. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is, was Jack Ruby ever treated by +you as a person whom you might go to if you needed to find out about +somebody? + +Mr. BEATY. A confidant? No, sir; absolutely not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether other people you worked with in the +narcotics bureau might have attempted to use him? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with any narcotics investigation that +ever took place with respect to Jack Ruby? + +Mr. BEATY. None. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how often would you say that you saw Ruby during the +last 3 years? + +Mr. BEATY. Possibly, four, maybe five times. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the occasions for seeing Jack? + +Mr. BEATY. Well, I saw him one time. I was working late nights and I +saw him walking his dog after his joint closed down on Commerce Street, +and I run into him on the street, and I go by his joint. You don't say +hello and look around. You say hello. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever stop in and visit you while you were in your +office at the police department? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; that was the last time I saw him before the shooting. +He came by--didn't particularly come to see me, but he just came to the +office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall about when that was? + +Mr. BEATY. No; it seemed like it was about a month before all this +happened, something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak to anybody in the narcotics office? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked to myself, and I believe Lieutenant Cornwall +was in and out of the office, and Dan Asabell. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you all talked with Jack about? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked about a girl. He had a stripper down there. +Let me think if I remember what her name was. Jada from New Orleans. + +The whole thing was how he thought Jada was just a little indecent +about her act and he would have to turn the lights off every once in +a while and tell her to clean it up a little bit, and one thing and +another. And how they went through a little "Hazel" in Judge Richburg's +court over all this. It was all in the papers, the whole story was and +that is about the gist of what we talked about. And Jada testified at +the previous thing. + +The bureau I work in, the special bureau, also handles all the +dancehall licenses and the liquor licenses and it could be that, I +don't believe he made a special trip to our office, I think he came to +the bureau and might have had a little business for a liquor license, +or something, I don't know. I didn't ask him about it at all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the narcotics bureau, is that correct to call +it a bureau? + +Mr. BEATY. Section. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Narcotics section is a subdivision of the special service +bureau, is that correct? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Within the special service bureau, there is a department +which handles dancehall policemen? + +Mr. BEATY. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does everybody who is a part of the special service +bureau occupy the same suite of offices? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the narcotics bureau occupy the same suite of offices +as the dancehall bureau? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What other people occupy the same suite of offices? + +Mr. BEATY. Vice squad. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, Detective Beaty, that you were on duty on +November 22, the day the President was shot? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; I was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were when you first heard he had +been shot? + +Mr. BEATY. Trade Mart. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from the Trade Mart? + +Mr. BEATY. Went back to our office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? + +Mr. BEATY. I think until about 9 o'clock that night. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty on the 23d? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the police department all day on the 23d? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. What day was the 23d? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Saturday. + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to Friday, did you see Jack Ruby +in the hallway at all on Friday, or any place in the police department? + +Mr. BEATY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby any time on +Saturday? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you left the police +department on Saturday? + +Mr. BEATY. Worked a lot of overtime. I am trying to remember. It was +probably 6:30 or 7 o'clock that night; Saturday night. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall whether when you left the police +department that night you had heard any rumors or had received any kind +of information that would indicate that Oswald was going to be moved +from the city jail to the county jail on Saturday? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Sunday a regular day for you to report to duty? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for duty? + +Mr. BEATY. Eight o'clock that morning. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car that morning? + +Mr. BEATY. In the basement, I believe. No; that is not right. It is +Sunday you are talking about now? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you to save my life. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime on Sunday did you ever have occasion to come in +the Commerce Street, come down the steps from Commerce Street and walk +down the hallway in the basement that leads to the records room? + +Mr. BEATY. The pedestrian entrance to the city hall basement? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. BEATY. I don't remember that either. If I park my car on Commerce +Street around there somewhere, I probably did. If I parked it on Main, +I probably took that other entrance, but I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don't remember, that is all right. + +Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you report up to the +narcotics bureau? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on the third floor? + +Mr. BEATY. No; on the second floor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the narcotics bureau? + +Mr. BEATY. Until about 9:15 or something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do at 9:15? + +Mr. BEATY. Everyone decided we wanted to get some coffee, and as we got +off the elevator in the basement, I noticed all the newspaper people +standing out there and a couple of reserve officers and a policeman, +I think, whose name was Nelson. I didn't know him at the time. He was +guarding the entrance. And just curiosity made me, instead of going to +get coffee, stay around to see what was going on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the people that you were going to go to coffee with +in the narcotics bureau? + +Mr. BEATY. No; vice and narcotics, and some administrative section. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Any people from the third floor? + +Mr. BEATY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where they went after coffee? + +Mr. BEATY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go out of the building? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; out of the building. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me what happened when you saw this fellow +Nielson. + +Mr. BEATY. Right away, nothing. I mean I just happened to glance over +here and here's two officers, and nothing happened. I just kind of +lingered behind and I didn't care for coffee anyway, and I told them +I would wait for them, and I kind of figured they would maybe move +Oswald, and I just wanted to see him and that is what it amounted to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--you expected that Oswald would be moved fairly +soon? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you received some word before that? + +Mr. BEATY. Everybody in the world, at 10 o'clock. They said in the +newspaper and radio. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. By this time when the boys in your group went out for +coffee, had there been any instructions to standby? + +Mr. BEATY. None. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later receive some instructions to standby to help +in the Oswald move? + +Mr. BEATY. As Capt. O. A. Jones got off the elevator, and as he walked +by, he said, "Come here, I want to talk to you." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this take place in the basement? + +Mr. BEATY. Right by the elevator door to the basement. He said there +will be some officers come down from the third floor, and told me to +wait for them right here, and he indicated close by the entrance to the +jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Detective Beaty, what is your best estimate of +how long this encounter with Jones was before Oswald actually came +downstairs? + +Mr. BEATY. What time did he get shot? It was about probably 30 minutes +before he actually came down and Ruby shot him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the important thing. I would rather have you fix +it in terms of that time rather than some specific time. + +Mr. BEATY. Around 30 minutes or something like this. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Because I noticed in the interview which you gave to +the FBI, you indicated that this was about 10 o'clock that you saw +Jones. Did you have any idea at the time when you gave this interview +to Agents Dallman and Quigley--that was on December 3--did you have +anything specific in mind when you told them that it was 10 o'clock. + +Mr. BEATY. I just was trying to remember when Captain Jones told me +to remain there. No; I was just trying to remember about the lapse of +time, it seemed to me like. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to look over this with me. Let me point +out, you indicated here that you thought Oswald came down about 11:30? + +Mr. BEATY. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they have reported that you told them that it was 10 +o'clock. Now it may be that that was that time it could be a mistake on +their part writing it down? + +Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. + +Mr. BEATY. Boy, it is hard to remember, but it seems to me like he +breezed through in just probably about 30 minutes--could possibly be +longer--after Mr. Jones told me this. I waited around for probably +another 4 or 5 minutes and the elevator doors opened up, and here all +the officers from the third floor, and we moved from there out into the +middle hallway. And they describe it here as a, whatever, I don't know, +right outside the jail office door, the little hall where they brought +him out of the jail office door there, and we remained there for about +30 minutes. And if the shooting actually occurred around 11:30, I have +made an error about the original time Captain Jones said that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take my pen and on this statement would +you want to put a circle around the 10 o'clock and make some note out +on the side that what you meant was 30 minutes before the shooting, or +whatever you think was the accurate time? + +Mr. BEATY. Gosh, I don't remember. I just can't remember to save my +life what time it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How is your memory as to the fact that it was about 30 +minutes before the shooting? + +Mr. BEATY. Thirty minutes, may be an hour. That times passes so fast +along in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it could have been longer than an hour? + +Mr. BEATY. I don't think so; no, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be fair to say, and I want you to be very frank +about this, because I don't want to change this in any way that isn't +fair, would it be fair to change this time 10 a.m., to read---- + +Mr. BEATY. That it was 10 or 10:30, would that be all right, because I +don't remember? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. To read a half hour or--to an hour before Oswald was shot? + +Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't carry a watch so I never know what time it is +unless I ask somebody and it would be a matter of kind of remembering, +and if you want to say 10 or 10:30, that would be about the same time, +wouldn't it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be just fair to say, "I am not certain about the +exact time?" + +Mr. BEATY. That would be fine. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I wish you would do this in your own handwriting and write +in there, "I am not certain about the time." + +Mr. BEATY. [Makes statement and initials.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a date after your initials. + +Mr. BEATY. 3-26-64. I don't even remember what month. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, do you recall any of the people who came +down in the contingent with Captain Jones? + +Mr. BEATY. They are listed on the back of that, the best I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You have listed on page 32, of what we have labeled +Commission Document 85 (Beaty Exhibit 5040), the names of about a dozen +police officers. Did you see all these people come down together, or +these people that you remember as having been in the basement? + +Mr. BEATY. They came--let me read them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read them for the record. B. H. Combest. J. H. +Hutchinson. + +Mr. BEATY. Those two, boy, they are supposed both special service +officers, too, and I don't know how in the world they could have +received word unless they called and told them to come down, because +they were the only ones from the special service bureau down there with +me at the time. I can't remember them getting off the elevator at the +time, but Captain Martin---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read them. W. J. Harrison. + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; I remember him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. James Watson. + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. L. D. Miller. + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. R. L. Lowery. + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; he was on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. J. Charles Goolsby? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Chambers. + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Frank Martin. + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant W. Wiggins? + +Mr. BEATY. No; he wasn't. He was a jail supervisor. He was already down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. R. C. Wagner? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the complete list. + +Mr. BEATY. They must have been on two elevators. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have these men that you saw come down, Harrison, +Cutchshaw, Watson, Miller, Lowery, Goolsby, Chambers, and Martin, were +all those people attached to the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. BEATY. No; Chambers is forgery. Goolsby is juvenile. Lowery is +juvenile. Wagner, I believe, is forgery. Watson is auto theft. Harrison +is juvenile. I don't know where Miller works. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Cutchshaw? + +Mr. BEATY. Cutchshaw is juvenile. Hutchinson and Combest are both +special services. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But Wagner was not in the elevator? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; he was with them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He came down in the elevator? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; Wiggins wasn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiggins wasn't in the elevator. Now, when these men got +off the elevator, what did they do? Where did they go? + +Mr. BEATY. Walked straight out there in front of the elevator to the +windows by--are you familiar with that place down there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am. + +Mr. BEATY. What I call it, where you go through that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Might as well call it the window in front of the jail +office, if that is where it was. + +Mr. BEATY. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to sketch a diagram of the basement. Did they +go through the swinging doors? + +Mr. BEATY. We waited right about here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating just about at the first window of the +jail office as you come from the elevator? + +Mr. BEATY. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The elevator we are talking about is the general elevator +that services all floors and is available to anybody that comes into +the building? + +Mr. BEATY. We are not talking about the jail elevator? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right. + +Mr. BEATY. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you all congregated outside that window, what +took place? + +Mr. BEATY. Within 5 or 10 minutes, Captain Jones came through and spoke +to me, and we walked through the small hall by the jail office window +into the double doors and he instructed us to stand on either side of +that hallway, which would be just outside the double doors as you enter +into the basement parking area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mr. Beaty, I am going to hand you my pen. I am +going to ask you if you will mark on this diagram where was your +understanding that people were to place themselves. + +Mr. BEATY. Where they were assigned? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what assignments did Jones make at that point? + +Mr. BEATY. He said, "Divide yourself up about half and half. Half on +this side and half on this side." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have drawn a line on either side, straight line +on either side of the hallway that leads out between the swinging doors +and the Main Street and Commerce Street ramp. + +Mr. BEATY. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell officers to stand any place except along those +two walls where you have drawn the line? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. He instructed us to, when they brought Oswald out +of the smaller swinging door in the outside hall, to make a path for +him and be sure that nobody got to him or slowed him down. In other +words, indicating that--I don't remember whether he said to get to him +or not. He just said keep the people back so we can get him through, +something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: What was your understanding that you +people were to do, if anything, when Oswald got abreast of you? + +Mr. BEATY. To keep the people back. Of course, over here where I was, +there was nobody behind me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place on the chart where it was you were +stationed? Put an "X" there. + +Mr. BEATY. [Complies.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you again. As Oswald moved out of the jail +office and approached the car that he was to get in, did you have any +understanding as to any action that you were supposed to take? + +Mr. BEATY. Like I said before, of course, there was nobody at that +time, we thought, but the press and police officers down there, and +at that time we were, television cameras were set up across the ramp +behind a railing about 4 foot tall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you place the TV cameras? + +Mr. BEATY. Somewhere right there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to put the TV cameras in a square. + +Mr. BEATY. [Complies.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there only two TV cameras in the basement? + +Mr. BEATY. The best I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there was a TV camera in the garage +entranceway to the garage? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I sure don't. There were so many of them, and guys +had them on their shoulders, and little tape recorders, and one thing +all over the joint. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am talking only about TV cameras, the big things +that set on a tripod as opposed to little movie cameras. + +Mr. BEATY. They had some of the shoulder cameras. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I wasn't thinking of them. I am just talking about the +stationary cameras. + +Mr. BEATY. I suppose I didn't pay any attention to them at all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am only talking now about the instructions that you +remember that came from Captain Jones. Do you have any idea as to what +you were to do when Oswald got abreast of you? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. He told us we would keep this aisle clear, and at +this time the cameras were run in and out of this door and something +through this door, and around here, and then he returned in about 3 or +4 minutes later and said, "All you people from the press move back into +the driveway." And I will indicate it by a dotted line across here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. + +Mr. BEATY. And over into the driveway entrance of the parking area from +the Commerce Street, Main Street ramp. Would you want a dotted line? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let me ask you a question about that. What is your +best estimate of the number of people that were over in the garage +entrance area? + +Mr. BEATY. Counting the people here behind the camera? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not counting the people behind the camera. + +Mr. BEATY. Right along in here? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; along the dotted line. + +Mr. BEATY. Thirty-five or forty. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that congested? + +Mr. BEATY. No; it wasn't. You can get that many people in. It is a +pretty wide area. Looks like it might be 50 feet across there, if this +is 15. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, across that 50-foot area, was there just a single +line across there? + +Mr. BEATY. They could be doubled or tripled. They were all scattered +out, of course. But there seemed like there was some congestion right +around there and behind the cameras. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you draw a half circle in the area or quarter circle +in the area where the congestion was? + +Mr. BEATY. Right along in here, best I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there appear to be people standing behind the TV +cameras? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there people standing up above the TV cameras, if you +recall? + +Mr. BEATY. I don't know what they would stand on. There is nothing for +them to stand on unless they had a box or something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did the congestion in this area that you have +indicated by a half circle which runs from about the position of the +TV camera close to the Main Street side, to about the middle of the +entrance to the garage, how did the congestion in that area compare to +the congestion along the Main Street ramp or across the Main Street +ramp? + +Mr. BEATY. The best I remember, most of the people that moved out of +this area moved into this area here. Then they moved over here. It +looked like there might have been as many here, or more, as there were +over here. There must have been a hundred all together all scattered +out all in the basement, and they wouldn't stay still. They would mill +around as long as they didn't get past this line here, and we weren't +too concerned with them, because they had uniform officers out here in +the basement and they brought those down earlier and shook down all the +cars a time or two, and I don't know what was going on out here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many uniformed officers did you see stationed +back here in the basement area? + +Mr. BEATY. Earlier? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at the time Oswald came out. + +Mr. BEATY. I didn't see any. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that there might not have been officers +there? + +Mr. BEATY. No; there were some earlier, about 50. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About 50 in there? Did you see them search the basement? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they search the basement, can you remember, before or +after you got the instructions from Captain Jones? + +Mr. BEATY. I couldn't remember. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you down in the basement? + +Mr. BEATY. What do you call the basement now, this or this? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about the whole bottom area, all the way from +the elevators that come down from the upstairs. + +Mr. BEATY. After the instructions, because I wouldn't be out here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you, prior to the time that your friends planned to +go out for coffee, down in the basement at all? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were down in the basement at the time the search +of the basement was conducted? + +Mr. BEATY. This was a good hour and a half or something like that, +later on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The basement was searched substantially after you got down +there? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. And I understand that this was the second time it +happened. + +In other words, well, I heard somebody say we have swept the basement +out twice already and I don't remember who said this. This is to +indicate that they searched the cars. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was in charge of the search that you saw +take place? + +Mr. BEATY. I would assume that since it was uniformed officers, it +would be Captain Talbert, because they were all uniform officers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not Sergeant Dean was in charge +of that search? + +Mr. BEATY. No; Sergeant Dean was there and so was Sergeant Putnam, and +I don't think you could say one was in charge or the other one was in +charge. It was a joint operation. I would say Captain Talbert was in +charge. And, actually, he wasn't down there. He would drop by and leave +a few instructions, some for Dean and some for Putnam and the like. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period that you were down in the basement, did +you see cars going in and out, coming up and down the ramp? + +Mr. BEATY. Saw one leave, it was a squad car, and it left and went this +way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp. Did you see any other cars coming +in the basement? Were officers coming in on routine duty and so forth? + +Mr. BEATY. I am sure there were, but I don't remember whether they +were or not. I know that they closed it from 9 o'clock on, but I can't +remember exactly what time they shut it off. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you first walked out in here in front of the +swinging doors toward the ramp, do you recall if the TV lights were on? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir; they weren't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when the armored car came in? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if the TV lights were on at that time? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I am quite sure that they took some picture of it, +but I don't remember whether, and there again which lights are you +talking about? Man, they were everywhere down there. And the armored +car backed down this ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Commerce Street? + +Mr. BEATY. Commerce Street ramp. And there were people with cameras on +the Main Street ramp back over here, back behind this 55-foot entrance +to the garage. They were everywhere. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there some sort of floodlights set up in connection +with the TV cameras? + +Mr. BEATY. I am sure there were. They were awful bright. I don't know +whether they were hooked onto the cameras or something. They brought in +this material, but the best I remember, there was a bunch of them over +in this area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Behind the camera? + +Mr. BEATY. Well, not necessarily. They could have been under or over. +You couldn't hardly tell. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that the armored car came down the ramp, +did you see what happened around that armored car? + +Mr. BEATY. Like what now? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anything that happened? + +Mr. BEATY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the armored car come down? + +Mr. BEATY. It took them quite a while to get the armored car down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see it come down? + +Mr. BEATY. Not the whole time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked up toward that armored car, were you able to +see people around that armored car from where you were standing? + +Mr. BEATY. Well, tell me when you are talking about? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime. + +Mr. BEATY. It took it about 5 minutes to back down, because it was too +tight for the ramp, and they didn't get it all the way in there. They +were very, very cautious and careful, and it parked up the ramp, and I +don't remember seeing anybody around. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Chief Batchelor coming down into the +basement and going up to the armored car? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any police officers up in the area of the +armored car? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was an officer--did you +see an officer stationed up at the top of the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I couldn't see that way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of the police that were stationed that you +didn't have a straight view of the ramp? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over in this direction over here, +could you see any police officers over in there? The place that I am +indicating is in the direction of the Main Street ramp. Did you see any +police officers? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; some of those officers I mentioned, I don't +remember exactly how they were stationed, which ones. The plainclothes +officers were standing on this side here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us--I am not asking you who you +subsequently learned was over there, but who you actually remember +seeing in that line? + +Mr. BEATY. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. The only reason I could +on this report I made, I remember who all was down there. That I could +remember. And I remember one was on our side, and I assumed the others +were on the other side. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you look over here toward the TV cameras---- + +Mr. BEATY. I am not looking over there much. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If, when you did on occasions look over there, could you +see people around the TV cameras? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any trouble distinguishing their faces? + +Mr. BEATY. After the lights were on, you couldn't see nothing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After the lights were on, you couldn't see anything over +there? + +Mr. BEATY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether or not Captain Jones instructed +the men that when Oswald was brought out from the jail office to where +you men were standing, that you were supposed to begin to start walking +alongside of Oswald toward the armored car? + +Mr. BEATY. He told us to keep the path open, and then he changed this +detail here and pushed them all back. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If all of the members of the press were along the Main +Street ramp and were over behind, roughly behind the railing, or at +least behind the TV camera in the direction of the garage area, what +function did you people who were stationed along where you have marked +your "X," that wall that you have your "X," and up the Commerce Street +ramp, what function were you people going to have? + +Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You certainly didn't expect that you were going to have +any trouble from newspaper people, because you were all backed up +against the wall, weren't you? + +Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do? + +Mr. BEATY. When? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Ruby shot Oswald. + +Mr. BEATY. When we first, it occurred to me at the time that--you don't +have policemen for 15 years, you don't have to sit down and draw them +a diagram to have them cover somebody, and Captain Jones said make the +way open, and it occurred to me that if we had to move around that +corner, fine. At that time there were people all around here and out in +the driveway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time Captain Jones set you up, there had been +people there? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; there had. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You then displaced news people, is that right? + +Mr. BEATY. No; whenever Captain Jones come back down, and I think he +had Sergeant Putnam or Dean, and he instructed them all to get back +there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are pointing to is on the opposite side from +where you were? + +Mr. BEATY. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. + +Mr. BEATY. If you go on with your interview, I can tell you what my +opinion is why we was there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I want you to tell me, what your opinion was. + +Mr. BEATY. Well, of course, the people from the press, they brought +Oswald out here, they all, Captain Jones asked them to please don't ask +him no questions, and let's get this over with as fast as we can. Those +are not his exact words, but that is what he meant. So, we all moved +back behind this line, and as they brought Oswald out to just about +the entrance to the Commerce Street and Main Street ramp right along +here---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a circle where Oswald was. + +Mr. BEATY. The three of them were there along here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I have written "Oswald." + +Mr. BEATY. And, by the way, after that they moved these people back, +these officers on the north side of the hallway were moved out into the +ramp area here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. These started to move out? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; they did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the people on your side? + +Mr. BEATY. There was only about four of us over there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You people stayed where you were? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Do you think these people who were on +the ramp side, which you call the north side---- + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; I would call it the north side. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What you have called the north side opposite where you +were standing, do you think those people began to move out sort of +instinctively? + +Mr. BEATY. No; they moved out before he got out there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. BEATY. And I am sure that there were some more officers that, I +don't know, that were along here. They had two people stationed out +here, a reserve and a---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "X" where these reserves were. + +Mr. BEATY. To keep these people from coming through here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This was between the swinging doors and the main elevators? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, were there two reserve officers? + +Mr. BEATY. No; they had one reserve and one officer stationed here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, and before they brought Oswald out, there was some +photographers in this area inside the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You have placed circles in the jail office where there +were photographers? + +Mr. BEATY. And they were removed by a uniformed officer and asked to +come out here, or out here, or back here, and I recall some of them +went this way and went on out and took their place. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of them went toward the garage area and some on the +Main Street ramp? + +Mr. BEATY. Some came back through these double doors, and were standing +along this hallway like they might be going to try to photograph +through the window. I remember one guy had a big shoulder camera and +one at--at one of these windows here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, is it fair to say that one of the functions you people +served in standing along the wall that you were on, was to make sure +that as these photographers cleared out the jail office, they didn't +line up along the wall? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; also, to double check this double door after he went +by, and somebody might have gotten instructions, I don't remember +whether they did or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, detective, after Oswald was shot, did you go into the +jail office? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go upstairs with Ruby? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? After Ruby was +taken upstairs? What did you do? + +Mr. BEATY. Captain Jones said, "Do you have a car out," and I told him, +"Yes, sir." + +He said, "Get about five of these officers," and I don't remember which +one, "and go to Parkland Hospital and help them with security." And +within 5 minutes after he was shot, we were on our way to Parkland. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Sergeant Dean was out there? + +Mr. BEATY. I don't think he was. He might have been. I didn't remember +seeing him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he went in your group? + +Mr. BEATY. No; I am pretty sure of both of the detectives in our group. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. BEATY. Let's see, probably after 2 o'clock, maybe 3 o'clock that +afternoon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were out at Parkland Hospital, did you hear any +rumors about how Ruby got down to the basement? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back to the police department, did you hear +any rumors back there as to how Ruby got into the basement? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after you got back to the police station were +you asked to prepare a report to Chief Curry? Don't look at this. I +want you to do this from your own recollection. + +Mr. BEATY. Probably the next day. I don't even remember. I couldn't +tell you. Somebody said, you got to write a report. But this was the +second or third one. We wrote a little report along as we went to kind +of, each day we have a daily report we turn in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a report at the end of the day? + +Mr. BEATY. I am not sure whether I did that or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do this. After you leave, would you check back +at the police department and find out if you did write a daily report. + +Mr. BEATY. If I did, it would be a special assignment. It wouldn't have +anything to do with the narcotics. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have any details of what you did? + +Mr. BEATY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this map we have been working +with, "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5039." +Now, is this Exhibit 5039 the document that you have been making marks +on during this discussion? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes; it is. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would sign that and then date it? + +Mr. BEATY. [Signs and dates.] What is the date, the 26th? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. All right, I am going to mark the interview report +by Agents Dallman and Quigley of the interview with you on December 3, +1963, as "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, 3-26-64----" + +Mr. BEATY. That happened in Garland. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But we are marking it here in Dallas. + +Mr. BEATY. Okay. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark what purports to be a copy of a letter +which you prepared to go to Chief Curry, which is dated November 27, +1963, and mark that "Dallas, Texas, Detective Beaty, 3-26-64, Exhibit +5041." I want you to look at 5041 and tell me if you had a chance to +read that over? + +Mr. BEATY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a true and accurate copy of a letter that you sent +to Chief Curry? + +Mr. BEATY. That looks like it might be; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You have read over both the interview report, Exhibit +5040, and this letter, Exhibit 5041? Other than the changes you have +already made on Exhibit 5040, and the testimony which you have already +given here today, are there any additions or corrections that you would +want to make in either of these? + +Mr. BEATY. Not that I can remember or think of. I have thought about +it some since it happened to see if I could remember anything that I +didn't tell the FBI agents, and I can't think of a thing. Actually, I +didn't see a whole lot of the actual shooting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that you would want to tell the +Commission that you think would be important to us in connection with +our investigation? + +Mr. BEATY. I don't think of a thing. You have covered it pretty well. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and I have any interview of any sort prior to the +time we took this deposition. + +Mr. BEATY. You talked to me in the hall and said read this, is all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I handed you Exhibits 5040 and 5041, but other than giving +it to you and asking you to read it before the interview? + +Mr. BEATY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any other member of the +Commission staff? + +Mr. BEATY. You are speaking of the Warren Commission? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BEATY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than the interview that you had with Dallman +and Quigley on December 3, 1963, do you recall whether you were +interviewed by any other Federal agent? + +Mr. BEATY. No; I am pretty sure I wasn't. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ALVIN R. BROCK + +The testimony of Alvin R. Brock was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Alvin R. Brock, the +patrolman, Dallas police department. Mr. Brock, my name is Leon Hubert, +I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the +President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order +11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and +the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with +that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized +to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Brock. I state to you that the +general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, +and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President +Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In +particular, as to you Mr. Brock, the nature of the inquiry is to +determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other +pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Brock, +you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by J. +Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, to Chief +Curry, asking him to make his men available. Under the rules adopted by +the Commission you are entitled to 3-day written notice prior to the +taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness +may waive the 3-day written notice if he wishes to do so. And now I ask +you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand then and raise your right hand so that I may +swear you? + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BROCK. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name? + +Mr. BROCK. Alvin R. Brock. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Mr. BROCK. Twenty-five. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? + +Mr. BROCK. 207 East Place, Ennis, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment? + +Mr. BROCK. Patrolman, for the city of Dallas, police department. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the Dallas police department? + +Mr. BROCK. Three and a half years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that time, how did you make your living? + +Mr. BROCK. Worked as assembler in aircraft. + +Mr. HUBERT. Assembler--aircraft--what? + +Mr. BROCK. As an assembler of aircrafts. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work at that? + +Mr. BROCK. Once I worked for approximately a year, 10 months, Temco, +and before that approximately a year and a half at Chance Vought. + +Mr. HUBERT. I guess prior to that you were going to school? + +Mr. BROCK. Prior to that I worked at Lone Star Gas for approximately a +year, and high school before that. + +Mr. HUBERT. You graduated from high school? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, what particular part of the police department are you +in? + +Mr. BROCK. Radio patrol. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is under what captain? + +Mr. BROCK. I work for Captain Talbert. + +Mr. HUBERT. Cecil Talbert? + +Mr. BROCK. I don't know his first name. + +Mr. HUBERT. Cecil Talbert. And are you in one of the prowl cars? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about November the +24th. What time did you go on duty that day? + +Mr. BROCK. 7:30 a.m. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then your shift would have ended---- + +Mr. BROCK. 3:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. P.M.? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where did you report at 7:30? + +Mr. BROCK. Well, assembly room, I guess is what you call it. We all +reported there. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the Dallas police department? + +Mr. BROCK. In the basement of the city hall; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then you are assigned to your cars and go cruising? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you had communication by radio, two men---- + +Mr. BROCK. We were working two men. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you that day? + +Mr. BROCK. M. L. Wise. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually get out on the streets and start prowling? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened? + +Mr. BROCK. We received a call from the dispatcher to call 511, that is +radio patrol office. + +Mr. HUBERT. And did you do that? + +Mr. BROCK. And we called them and they advised us to come on down there +as soon as we could. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get down there? + +Mr. BROCK. It was a few minutes after 9. I don't know exactly. + +Mr. HUBERT. What prowl car were you driving? Do you remember the number +of it? + +Mr. BROCK. We were working squad 71. That is the number of the squad, +not the car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a different car number every day or drive the +same car usually? + +Mr. BROCK. You mean the same---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Talking about squad 71--I mean, the automobile has a number +on it, doesn't it? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes; I don't recall what the number--we usually have the +same one. + +Mr. HUBERT. Same car? What did you do? Park your car in the---- + +Mr. BROCK. We took it down there and parked it in the alley there just +north of the--on Commerce at Pearl Street, and walked on down to the +city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. You parked it on Pearl Street, or in the alley? + +Mr. BROCK. In the alley, just north of Commerce, just off Pearl Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the alleyway that runs from Pearl up to the back of +the city hall building and then makes a right to Main Street? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Has the form of an L-shape, is that right? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You put it in that alleyway? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive it all the way up that alleyway up there? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir; it was down close to the street there. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, you walked up the alley? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir; we walked back out on the street and then down to +the building and then---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't go in the building through the back door. + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Through that back door? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you try the back door? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all parked your car near Pearl Street +and didn't even walk up or ride up the alley at all? + +Mr. BROCK. Oh, no; we walked back out and went down the street sidewalk. + +Mr. HUBERT. Went down Pearl Street to Commerce? + +Mr. BROCK. Went down Commerce, cut across a parking lot to Commerce, +down to the city hall that way. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was about what time? + +Mr. BROCK. A few minutes after 9. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Mr. BROCK. I don't know exactly. + +Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you report to? What did you do? + +Mr. BROCK. We reported to 511 patrol office, to Lieutenant Pierce. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Rio Pierce, I think you call him? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What orders did he give you? + +Mr. BROCK. He told us just to sit down there for a few minutes, until +they decided what they wanted us to do. Then about 9:20, I guess it +was, he told me to go down to the basement and report to Sergeant Dean +and Sergeant Putnam. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is Patrick Dean, I think? + +Mr. BROCK. P. T. Dean. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you report to him? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened? + +Mr. BROCK. Sergeant Putnam assigned me on what they call the elevator +area there, there in the basement at the east end of the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. About what time were you posted there? + +Mr. BROCK. It would be about 9:30, I would imagine. + +Mr. HUBERT. What were your orders? + +Mr. BROCK. To not let anyone in except police officers and members of +the press. + +Mr. HUBERT. Into what? + +Mr. BROCK. Into the basement area. + +Mr. HUBERT. From what? + +Mr. BROCK. Well, about from anywhere--see there was an elevator there +that goes to the next floor on it--in the municipal building. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the service elevator, are you? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; there is a service elevator, and the other +elevators, they were not working, but the service elevator was the one. + +Mr. HUBERT. How do you know they weren't working? + +Mr. BROCK. Well, I presumed they wasn't. They never did open the time I +was--actual time I was there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of a fire staircase in that general area? + +Mr. BROCK. There was a, I believe it is, right to the--right around the +corner from the elevators on the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Be to your---- + +Mr. BROCK. Be to the left of the elevators, I guess it would be then. + +Mr. HUBERT. If you were facing the east elevator? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; I was in a position where I could watch it and the +elevator, too. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want--you know, it won't show up on here, so, I +want to show you a map or chart of the basement area and in order to +identify it so that the record may show that we are both talking about +the same thing, I am going to ask you to sign this with me, and I am +marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964." This will be Exhibit 5113, +deposition of A. R. Brock. I am signing my name beneath that and I'll +ask you to sign your name just for the purposes of identification. And +now have a look at the map and I would just like you to put, not one +spot, because obviously, you can't stand in one spot, but just sort +of draw by making sort of an area, circle or oblong just the way you +walked and watched. + +Mr. BROCK. What I done, I was in a position here. I didn't move out of +it. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, you can mark it then. Just put a circle. + +Mr. BROCK. I would stay in this position where I could watch the stairs +and the elevator, too. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are facing, most of the time, toward Main Street? + +Mr. BROCK. Well, I would be facing one or the other there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where you marked the circle, I am drawing a line from it, +then I am writing, "Position of A. R. Brock during the time he was +guarding elevators and staircase." Right? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am putting a circle around that language and connecting +it by a line to the circle that you drew showing your position. I +think you have testified that all the time you were there, the regular +service elevators, which are on this chart, denoted as elevators Nos. 1 +and 2, weren't working at all? + +Mr. BROCK. They never opened them the entire time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody go up or down the staircase here, which I am +marking by putting in "X"? + +Mr. BROCK. No one went in or downstairs on the staircase. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever--did you observe this first aid station? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody come in or go out of that the whole +time you were there? + +Mr. BROCK. At the time that I was assigned there, the doctor was in the +first aid station, and Sergeant Putnam contacted him and told him he +would have to leave the basement area. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, he got out? + +Mr. BROCK. No one entered after that. + +Mr. HUBERT. By the way, I think you stated the time that you were +posted, but let's repeat it to be sure. + +Mr. BROCK. I think it was about 9:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there how long? + +Mr. BROCK. Oh, I believe it was 10:45 when I left there. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, now. Was there any--any people either entered or +left this service elevator during the time you were there? + +Mr. BROCK. When I first got down there there were three city employees +and the elevator operator standing there at the door of the elevator +around in front, looking around, just seeing what was going on and +shortly after I got there, I told them they would have to leave the +basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were they in some kind of a janitorial uniform so that you +could tell that they were employees? + +Mr. BROCK. I have seen them before. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know their names? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Men and women? + +Mr. BROCK. There was one woman. I haven't seen her before, but from +what I gather, the way she was talking to the others, she was a +telephone operator there at the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. White woman? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were they all white people? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir; there was one building engineer. Engineer, I +believe, is what he was called--a white man. There was a Negro, two +Negroes, one was the elevator operator, one parked cars in the basement +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you made them all go upstairs? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did they come down any more? + +Mr. BROCK. The elevator came down one other time. Sergeant Putnam +brought one of the TV men over there, wanted to go up the fourth--fifth +floor to do some kind of work with the equipment there, and the +elevator come and picked him up and went up and brought him back in a +few minutes, and that was the only person went up or down the elevator. + +Mr. HUBERT. As long as you were there? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you all give the elevator operator any instructions +about what he was to do? + +Mr. BROCK. We told him to take it up on the first floor and not bring +it back in the basement, that is, open the door of it in the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was after the TV man had been brought up and down? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at that point, after the TV man had been +brought up and down, he was issued instructions, "Now, don't come down +here any more." + +Mr. BROCK. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And all the time you stayed there he didn't? + +Mr. BROCK. It didn't come down any more. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who got off of that spot at 10:45? + +Mr. BROCK. Sergeant Putnam. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where did he put you after that? + +Mr. BROCK. He assigned me over to a traffic intersection where the auto +was going to take to the city jail--county jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you went and helped there? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You drove? + +Mr. BROCK. My partner drove; M. L. Wise drove my car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Dropped you off? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where did he drop you off? + +Mr. BROCK. Elm and Ervay. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there for how long? + +Mr. BROCK. Until about 11:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who relieved you then? + +Mr. BROCK. 11:30 my partner picked me up and reported to Parkland. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay at Parkland? What time did you get +there and what time did you leave, we'll put it that way. + +Mr. BROCK. I would just be guessing. Stayed there probably an hour or +hour and a half. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any reserve officers around? + +Mr. BROCK. Where? + +Mr. HUBERT. Parkland? + +Mr. BROCK. There was lots of officers out there. I don't remember +seeing any reserve officers out there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Actually, can you tell the difference from the uniforms? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What? The badge? + +Mr. BROCK. They have a patch on their arm that says, "Dallas Police +Reserve Officer," or "Reserve Officer," of some sort and they don't +carry guns. All they carry is a nightstick. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Newman? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't. I don't know any of them, I don't guess, +by name, that I can recall right now. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you see another officer on duty in the +basement but closer to the ramp that runs between Main and Commerce? + +Mr. BROCK. There was a, I believe, a reserve officer standing somewhere +in this area. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, the arrow points--let the record show that the arrow +pointed to by the witness is being marked by me with a circle, and I am +writing, "Position of Reserve Officer, as testified to by A. R. Brock," +and I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it with +this smaller circle. Do you know that reserve officer's name? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I just noticed him there. I didn't---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay there about the same time you did? + +Mr. BROCK. I believe he was still there or somewhere in that area when +I left, and there was another reserve officer assigned in this area +here [indicating], because he was walking around, back and forth in +this area around the staircase and around where I was assigned, also. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose I draw a line, I will start the line with +"1," and---- + +Mr. BROCK. I would say he went over in this area rather than come up on +it this way. + +Mr. HUBERT. He went out to about the place marked "2" and I am putting +the number "1" and "2" in a circle. Now, the line "1" and "2" is where +you saw this reserve officer walking up and down? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, you don't know his name? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first got there? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. He came later? Was he there when you left? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have read these two statements? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I want to mark them for identification as follows: "An FBI +report of an interview of you made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin +on December 4, 1963, for identification. I am marking it, "Dallas, +Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5114, deposition of A. R. Brock." And +signing my name underneath it. It has two pages, and so, I am placing +my initials in the left-hand corner on the second page, and I'm also +marking for identification what seems to be a copy of a letter dated +November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, the original, apparently, has +been signed by you, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, +Exhibit No. 5115, deposition of A. R. Brock." I am signing my name. It +has only one page. Now, I understand that you have read both of these +documents? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make? I would like you to express +yourself as to whether those documents represent the truth and are they +complete, or do they have omissions or should anything be deleted as +wrong or just tell me your thoughts about the documents dealing first +with the FBI report which has been marked "5114"? + +Mr. BROCK. These are true, to the best of my memory. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that true of 5115, too? + +Mr. BROCK. That would be the other one? Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make on these? Do you think they +represent what you know? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; they--I think they represent all that I know about +it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that between those two documents, to wit, +5114, 5115, and the material we got on the chart and your deposition, +itself, that we now know just everything you know about the matter? + +Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; do you care to add anything else in any way? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't know of anything else that would---- + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by me or any +other member of the Commission staff prior to the starting of this +deposition? + +Mr. BROCK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, that's all. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE B. H. COMBEST + +The testimony of Detective B. H. Combest was taken at 9 a.m., on March +26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of B. H. Combest. Mr. Combest, my +name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the +general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of +Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of +Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's +Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint +resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. + +I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Combest, the nature of +the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death +of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general +inquiry. Mr. Combest, you appeared here today by virtue of a general +request made to your Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel +on the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by +the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the +taking of the deposition, but the rules, however, also provide that a +witness may waive this notice. Are you willing now to waive the 3-day +notice? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand to be sworn, please? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth +and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name, sir? + +Mr. COMBEST. Billy H. Combest. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, your name is Billy and not William? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it is Billy. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your age? + +Mr. COMBEST. Thirty-three. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir? + +Mr. COMBEST. 2803 Linhaven, Mesquite, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mesquite, Tex. + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir? + +Mr. COMBEST. Detective for the city of Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so employed? + +Mr. COMBEST. With the department a little over 9 years. I have been a +detective about 4 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on Sunday, November 24th, 1963? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir, I was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that one of your regular working days or had you been +called in specially? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, my regular working day. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. How well did you know him? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, I knew him very well by sight. I had seen him +numerous occasions before, over a period of approximately 4, 4-1/2 +years. I knew him through business with the--checking his location for +violations, routine checks by the police. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would there be any doubt that you would recognize him as +soon as you saw him? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You would recognize him even in a crowd of people? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I would have. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would it make any difference in your recognition if he had +a hat on or not? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Combest, I ask you to identify some documents and +in order for the record to show that we are talking about the same +thing, I am going to mark them. I now mark what appears to be a copy +of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief +of police, and the original apparently was signed by you, as, "Dallas, +Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5099. Deposition of B. H. Combest." +I am signing my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr., on the first page. On the +second page, I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner. +I am also marking for identification what purports to be a report of +the FBI of an interview with you by Special Agents Dallman and Quigley +on December 2, 1963, consisting of four pages, putting on this first +page, in the right side margin the following, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, +1964. Exhibit No. 5101. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I am signing my +name on the first page below that and placing my initials in the lower +right-hand corner of the three succeeding pages. Now, Mr. Combest, you +have read the letter dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, which +I have marked Exhibit 5099. Does that document represent the truth, so +far as you know it? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comments to make about it? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now let's turn to a document which I have marked +5101, which is the FBI report, and I will ask you if you have read that? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. HUBERT. If you have any comments to make on that, corrections, +deletions, anything been omitted? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, I want to know whether this represents a +true, full statement of the interview and what you said, or didn't say, +and let's have an explanation of it. + +Mr. COMBEST. Okay, sir. On the fourth page there, the third paragraph +where---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. COMBEST. They relate to the person named as Newman. They +misunderstood me, evidently, on that. He does work at the Theatre +Lounge as it so states there, but Ruby does not have anything to do +with the Theatre Lounge. This is another so-called strip joint in the +downtown area. + +Mr. HUBERT. Here is the sentence we are talking about. "He did recall, +however, that an individual by the name of Newman, first name unknown, +was formerly district supervisor for the liquor control board, worked +for Ruby at the Theatre Lounge." Now, your statement is that that is an +incorrect statement of what you said? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you correct it, please? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, the question was did I know of any police officers +that had worked for Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. COMBEST. At the time I told him, "No," I did not and I explained +possibly where they had gotten their information was that a reserve +police officer had made a statement to some news media that he had +worked for Jack Ruby, but he is not a regular policeman for the city of +Dallas, and I also told him that possibly what they had heard that this +L. L. Newman, who formerly worked for the Texas Liquor Control Board +was working at the Theatre Lounge in the downtown area, and possibly +that was what they had heard. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you actually told them that there were two +Newmans involved, one who had been a reserve officer---- + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I do not recall the name of the reserve officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Two different individuals, one, who had been a reserve +officer and one who had been with the Texas Liquor Control Board? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your statement to them was that possibly what they were +thinking about when they were questioning you was that the Newman who +had worked for the Texas Liquor Control Board was the one you thought +had once worked for the Theatre Lounge? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did Ruby have any connection with the Theatre Lounge? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; none whatsoever. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who did, as a matter of fact? + +Mr. COMBEST. It is either Abe or Barney Weinstein. One of the brothers +owned the Theatre Lounge. One of the brothers owns the Colony Club. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that perhaps I should call your attention +to the next sentence, too, because you may want to correct it in the +light of this testimony. The next sentence which is the last sentence +of the very top paragraph of the last page of Exhibit 5101 reads as +follows: "Newman terminated his employment with the State about a year +and a half ago and it would have been possibly about that time that he +started working for Ruby." + +Mr. COMBEST. No; there again, evidently they misunderstood me. It was +possibly that time that he went to work for the Theatre Lounge. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you any other comments to make with +reference to the FBI report, which is Exhibit 5101? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, I believe it is on page 3, first paragraph, +in--where they say, I didn't--didn't observe Ruby make any statement at +the time of the shooting, could not recall Ruby making statements. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I understand that you wish to comment on +or make some correction in a sentence on the third page of Exhibit +5101, which sentence begins on the sixth line from the top of the page +and reads as follows: "As best he could recall Ruby had what could be +described as a determined look, or grimace on his face, and he could +recall Ruby making no statement in conjunction with his action." Now, I +understand you want to comment on that sentence? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it may be correct as it is said there. I +don't--the way I was--the way I say it is not exactly the way I meant +it. I told them he was talking. He was making statements but I could +not recall anything word by word to tell them or any exact words that +he said at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suppose that is true now, that you can't recall any +exact words that he said at the time. + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, can you tell us without using the exact words, the +sense of what he was saying? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, it appeared to me that at the time he was cursing +Oswald, but again, I wasn't close enough to hear the words, his exact +words. I could tell he was talking, tell he was making some statements, +but I cannot recall anything he said exactly. I wasn't that close. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. In other words, what you are really changing to, +instead of the affirmative statement that you couldn't recall Ruby +making any statement, you are changing it to say you think he was +saying something but you couldn't hear? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. What other corrections do you have then? + +Mr. COMBEST. That's all I have, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. With the corrections that you have noted in the FBI report, +which have been marked for identification as Exhibit 5101, did you +consider that the FBI report is a fair statement of what you said to +the FBI agent involved? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it represents the truth? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, and so that the record may show that we are both +speaking of the same document, I would like you to sign your name below +mine here on Exhibit 5099 and initial the second page below my initial, +and do the same thing with Exhibit 5101. + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. Did you say that there was four pages on that +earlier? There are five, I believe, aren't there? + +Mr. HUBERT. Beg your pardon, sure are. It has been brought to my +attention that Exhibit 5101, which I have previously identified as +having four pages, in fact, has five, and I notice now that I have +failed to place my initial on the second page, apparently having +missed it, so, I now place my initial on the second page. All being +initialed now. I have marked for identification a chart, or floor +plan of the Dallas Police Department basement area showing the jail +office, the parking area, down ramp from the Main Street, the upper +ramp to Commerce Street, and for the purpose of identification with +this testimony, I have marked this document as follows: "Dallas, Texas, +March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5100. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I have +signed my name under that in order also that we may recognize that +we are talking about the same document. I will ask you to put your +signature below mine on that document, sir. + +When did you first learn about the time of the plan to transfer Oswald? + +Mr. COMBEST. Sometime late the preceding day that I heard it through +the news media that we were going to transfer him the next morning, and +I don't recall the exact time, but the time of transfer was supposed to +be pretty early the next morning, the way I understood it. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean 5 or 6? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, 7 or 8. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty? + +Mr. COMBEST. I believe it was 9 o'clock in the morning. + +Mr. HUBERT. Didn't your shift go on at 7, your regular shift? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday it begins at---- + +Mr. COMBEST. We have a 9 to 5, and a 10 to 6 squad working Sundays. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I know that, the FBI report indicates that. But, you +reported to central police headquarters at 7 a.m.? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I overlooked that. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is incorrect then? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you want to change the first sentence of the third +paragraph on the first page? Exhibit 5101 which states you reported at +7 a.m., to show that you reported at 9 a.m., on that Sunday, November +24? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any particular assignment as to the transfer +of Oswald? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; not before, just shortly before the transfer. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, from 9 o'clock when you reported until you +were given the assignment which we are going to in a minute, you went +about your normal duties? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, who gave you that particular assignment and what was +it? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, it was Captain Jones who works in the forgery bureau +of the Dallas Police Department. He came through the basement of the +jail and talked to Detective Beaty and Officer J. D. Hutchinson and, I +believe, some other officers there at the time, and told us to remain +in the basement and we would be given more specific orders shortly. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time was that about? + +Mr. COMBEST. I would have to refer to my letter there. I don't remember +at this time. + +Mr. HUBERT. The letter says 10:50 approximately 10:50, is that about +right? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do? + +Mr. COMBEST. We remained there in the basement and shortly Captain +Jones came back off the elevator with what appeared to be all the +onduty officers in the building at that time. He told us to go outside +the jail office in the parking area and into the basement, itself, and +there he would station us. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he do so? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; he did. When he got outside he told us to form +a line either side of the passageway leading into the ramp where the +vehicles were parked to transfer Oswald, and he gave us orders not to +let anyone rush in, not let the lines close in. He also told us to make +sure that they didn't fall in behind him, to follow him out after they +had passed. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, there was a line formed on either side of the jail +corridor from the jail door to the basement area where the car was to +transport Oswald? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, if you will step over here, please, and have a look +at this mockup here. First of all, this is the inside jail office. +This is really--this is the corridor swinging door. This is the outside +corridor of the jail door. Now, looking at this first, try to fix your +position and then I'm going to ask you to place your position on this +map once you have related this map to the mockup, so we will have a +record on this map of where you were. + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; would have been standing just about here +[indicating], just almost to the corner. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am placing--is this it? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am placing a circle where you say you were standing. That +is just off the corner of the intersection formed by the jail corridor +and the basement ramp, but toward the swinging door in the basement and +the jail office? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Right? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And, I'm going to put there, "Position of Combest as +stationed by Jones." Is that correct? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am circling that language and attaching the language to +the circle that you have indicated. Now, what time did you reach the +position that we just marked on the map? + +Mr. COMBEST. It would have been approximately 20 minutes before the +shooting, which would have placed it at 11, wouldn't it? 11 a.m. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at that position until the shooting? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I understand that you didn't remain absolutely +still, but you didn't walk around? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I stayed in that immediate area right there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who was on your right? + +Mr. COMBEST. R. L. Lowery. Detective R. L. Lowery. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark his position. That would have put him +almost---- + +Mr. COMBEST. Right at the corner. + +Mr. HUBERT. Right at the corner? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am marking that, encircling the language, "Position of R. +L. Lowery," and do you remember who was to your left? + +Mr. COMBEST. Detective Beaty, Detective B. L. Beaty. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were facing in the direction of the Main Street ramp, +in the parking area on the Main Street side of the building? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were there for approximately 20 minutes? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you see out into the parking area on the Main Street +side of the building? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I could not. They completely blocked me, +television cameras and newsmen on this side--on this side of the rail, +and of down in the basement, itself. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am marking an area which I am going to call "area B," +with an oblong circle. Is that the area you are talking about? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you say that "area B," had television cameras and +personnel attending them? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And other people there, so that you were unable to see into +the parking area, is that correct? + +Mr. COMBEST. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark another area, "area A," and ask if +there were any people standing in that area? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes; there were. + +Mr. HUBERT. Roughly, how many? + +Mr. COMBEST. There were several officers standing here [indicating]. +There were some---- + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are just pointing to the Commerce +Street side of the area that I have marked "area A"? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; also down the line. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they were on the opposite side of the +corridor from you? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. A semicircle curving toward Commerce Street? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I'm marking a line, which I am going to start off at a +point called "1," and have it curve over to a point called "2," is that +approximately the line you are talking about? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, on that line from "1," to "2" you say there were a +number of detectives, or members of the police department? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize any of them? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, I remember "Blackie," that is the nickname, Harrison. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is W. J. Harrison? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I believe it is. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where was he, about? + +Mr. COMBEST. I don't recall exactly. I know that he was on that side, +and I lost contact with him as soon as Oswald started out. I don't +remember if he had moved, or if he was still standing directly across. + +Mr. HUBERT. He was in front of the people that I have marked here in +"area B," and "area A"? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than the detective, how many people do you +suppose were in that "area A," right back of the curving line marked +"1" to "2"? + +Mr. COMBEST. It would be an estimate on it at this time. I don't +recall. There were several. I would say 15, at least. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think they were standing shoulder to shoulder? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes; it was pretty crowded all the way around. + +Mr. HUBERT. That would make about what, two or three ranks of people? + +Mr. COMBEST. I don't recall exactly. I know there was a very large +crowd in the basement that day. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the whole basement? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there any people in the area which I am marking +roughly by an oblong figure, "area C," which is the ramp leading from +the parking area into Main Street, Commerce Street ramp? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; there were. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in there, too? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; there were several people there, newsmen and +also, several officers stationed in that area out there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, were the television lights on all the time you were +standing there? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did they bother you? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; they did. + +Mr. HUBERT. In what way? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, when we first came downstairs it was a little hard +to distinguish faces in this area here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. "Area B," the witness is pointing to "area B." + +Mr. COMBEST. And until you got used to them it was pretty hard to look +into them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you get used to them? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I was pretty well used to them at the time the +actual transfer took place. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you could distinguish faces of people in "area B"? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you distinguish faces in "area A"? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. The lights gave you no trouble by the time the transfer +actually took place, is that correct? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. When did you first see Ruby in that crowd? + +Mr. COMBEST. Just as they started to lead Oswald past me, at the corner +there I observed him lunge from the crowd. Almost the whole line of +people pushed forward when Oswald started to leave the jail office, the +door, the hall--all the newsmen were poking their sound mikes across +to him and asking questions, and they were everyone sticking their +flashbulbs up and around and over him and in his face. I don't--when he +first lunged forward I don't think anyone noticed him. I didn't until +he came apart from the crowd and continued on towards Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did he come from the area--we have marked on this +Exhibit 5100 as "area A" or as "area B," sir? + +Mr. COMBEST. The best I could tell he would be coming approximately +half way between them there, between what you have marked as "area A," +and "area B." + +Mr. HUBERT. Sort of from the corner there? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to take the pen and mark an "X" on the +spot that you first saw Ruby. + +Mr. COMBEST. About approximately [indicating], because---- + +Mr. HUBERT. This was really the front line "1," through "2." + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I'm writing on the map, "Position where Ruby was first +seen by Combest." Was he standing still then? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; he was stepping forward and--or lunging forward, +I guess would be the best way to put it. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen him, of course, prior to that moment? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him in the crowd at all? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I had not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him coming down? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; when I was standing with the crowd I couldn't see +the ramp there, the Main Street ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. You could see a part of it, couldn't you, the bottom? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, no, sir; it slanted up and they had an air +conditioner sitting across here where you have to be almost in +your--standing directly in the bottom of the ramp you couldn't see the +top of it very clearly. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, you testified that you knew Ruby's face well enough so +that you could distinguish it in a crowd? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had looked into that crowd and your eyes had become +accustomed to the lights? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I ask you if you saw him in the crowd before he lunged +forward? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you would have seen him had he been in that +crowd during the 15 minutes or so prior to that shot, the shooting? + +Mr. COMBEST. Quite possibly if he had been there very long I believe I +would have spotted him. I might not have, but knowing that he didn't +belong there I believe I would have spotted him right off. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what precautions were taken to assure that +people who did not belong there would not be there? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, everyone that went out into the basement from the +jail office had to have the press card, proper identification showing +that they were members of the press and police officers. Other than +that no one was admitted to the basement parking area. + +Mr. HUBERT. What kind of press cards were honored, and what were +dishonored? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, most of the news personnel there had the--had a +press card for that--I don't remember the wording. It was something +about--"Presidential press party," or something that they had. Of +course, it was recognized and then any other card that did have their +picture on it, and it had to say they were a member of a press, any +newspaper. I remember the Oklahoma City newspaper came in, and they +were admitted with their press cards. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did they have to have their picture on the press cards? + +Mr. COMBEST. The ones I checked, I remember now I wasn't actually +stationed there at the cars. There were two uniformed officers here +who were actually doing the checking. Of course, I did check some to +expedite travel through that narrow corridor. + +Mr. HUBERT. What I'm trying to get at, there were no particular press +cards issued for this particular occasion? + +Mr. COMBEST. Not that I recall; no, sir. Not that I know of. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any instances in which you were involved +or in which you observed in which persons who were not properly--who +didn't have a press card, were removed or questioned? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; in my letter there to Chief Curry I recall there +was a girl that worked at the police information desk, which is in +the basement, by the records bureau, had went out into the basement, +at least on one occasion to summon officers that were wanted on the +telephone. On the next time that I noticed her start to go into there, +she was stopped by Sergeant Putnam, as I recall it. He advised her that +she would not go into the basement if she had messages to officers that +were in the basement, and she was not to leave her assignment behind +the information desk until the transfer was over. Also, to a civilian +employee that worked in the jail booking office proper. He had came +out into the parking basement, appeared to have a look around to see +what was going on. He was told to get back behind the desk in the jail +booking office and remain there until after the transfer was over. +Also, one other incident, I think I have also put in my letter there +and regarding a reporter for the Oklahoma City News, I believe his +name is Jim Standard. He did not have a press card. He was stopped and +questioned, but he did have proper identification to prove that he did +work for the Oklahoma City newspaper. He had a hospitalization card +made out to a group policy of this newspaper in Oklahoma City. Had some +letters and correspondence to him, addressed to him at that location, +and after convincing myself and Beaty, he convinced Captain Talbert +that he was a legitimate member of the press and he was admitted. Two +or 3 days after the incident I was in Oklahoma City and I saw the +article he had written showing this incident in Dallas and his picture +was also in the Oklahoma City paper, and I remembered him. I recognized +him. And he wrote a pretty good article on the security in the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to Ruby after the shooting? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything? + +Mr. COMBEST. Again, I heard him talking when he came into the jail +office proper, where the booking office is located. As I recall it, +they laid him on the floor to put the handcuffs on him more securely. +He was talking then as they led him past the spot where Oswald was +laying, near the elevator, to take him to jail. He was also talking. He +was looking in the direction of Oswald and was talking to the officers +that were leading him away. I don't recall any specific statement he +made. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Oswald say anything? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. He--I didn't hear him say a word hardly, after he +had been shot. He was moaning at the time Jimmy Leavelle, Graves, and I +laid him down on the floor and removed the handcuffs that he had on him. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was in the jail office? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. At the time I asked him and talked to him trying +to get him to make a statement to me at the time. Especially, after I +realized how serious the wound was. When we first asked him he appeared +to comprehend what I was saying. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him? + +Mr. COMBEST. Well, I told him was there anything that he wanted me to +tell anybody or was there anything he wanted to say right now before it +was too late, and I don't remember my--exactly the words that I did say +to him, but after I realized the seriousness of the wound, of course, +trying to let him know if he was ever going to say anything he was +going to have to say it then. + +Mr. HUBERT. You thought he was dying? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. And do you think you used language to him to convey to him +your idea that he was dying? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any indication that he actually understood what +you were trying to convey to him? + +Mr. COMBEST. When I first started asking him he did. He looked up at +me, seemed to recognize that I--who was talking to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't mean that he recognized you as a person? + +Mr. COMBEST. He recognized that I was the person talking to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, he didn't say anything? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; just shook his head and I said, "Do you have +anything you want to tell us now," and he shook his head. + +Mr. HUBERT. He did not say the word "No"? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; he did not say anything at all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to him that if he had any accomplices or +wanted to clarify the shooting of the President, that he had better do +it right quick? + +Mr. COMBEST. Not in those words. I didn't mention "accomplice," or +anything. I was real excited at the time but I kept talking to him as +long as I thought that he would try to answer me, hoping that he would +give a dying declaration on the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you think you used language sufficiently clear to him +to indicate to him that in your opinion he was dying and on account of +the fact that he was dying it was just about the last time he would +have a chance to say anything about the shooting of the President, or +the shooting? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby thereafter? + +Mr. COMBEST. What was the question, sir? + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby, thereafter? + +Mr. COMBEST. I didn't see him until after he had passed through the +jail office. Now, in the jail elevator. The next time I saw him at the +preliminary hearing in Judge Brown's office in the court house. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't hear him say anything else? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard anything that would indicate to you that any +member of the police department actually saw Ruby in the garage prior +to the shooting? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; not on this day, this particular day. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about this day. + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did any member of the police department ask you whether you +had seen Ruby prior to the shooting? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was that? + +Mr. COMBEST. Lieutenant Revill, Jack Revill and Lieutenant Cornwall. +Now, they were members of a group that were investigating within the +police department, and I was interrogated by them as to if I had seen +him that day. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your answer was the same as it was---- + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it was "no." + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there any suggestion by these gentlemen or anybody else +that you should say that you had not seen him? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; none whatsoever. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other statements or comments that you would +like to make that have not been said or reported in any way that you +know of by you concerning the matter that we have been talking about +this morning? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion, and concerning your letter, which has +been identified as 5099, the FBI report of the interview with you which +has been identified as 5101, and this deposition today represents all +you know about this, completely? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. HUBERT. And all of it is correct and true? + +Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, has there been any interview between +me and you, or you and any other member of the Commission's staff other +than this deposition this morning? + +Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; there have not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF KENNETH HUDSON CROY + +The testimony of Kenneth Hudson Croy was taken at 10:30 p.m., on March +26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory +staff to the General Counsel of the President's Commission on the +assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was set up under +Presidential Resolution No. 11130, signed by President Johnson on +November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress +No. 137. As a result of this Presidential Executive order and the +Presidential resolution, the Commission has been given authority to +promulgate certain rules of procedure, and I have been authorized in +accordance with those rules to take your sworn deposition, Mr. Croy. + +I want to explain to you a little bit first before we go forward with +the deposition of what this testimony, why we are taking the testimony. +The Commission has been set up for the purpose of investigating, +evaluating, and reporting back to the President on all of the facts +surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent +murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are particularly concerned here today +in calling you, with delving into the events surrounding Oswald's +death, although if you have any other information that you feel would +be useful to us in any other areas of our inquiry, we would like very +much to have that. + +Now, I also want to explain to you, Mr. Croy, that you have been asked +to appear here today as a result of a letter which was sent by Mr. J. +Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission, to Chief +Curry, and your name was listed on that and Chief Curry arranged to +set up the schedule. I should tell you that under the rules of the +Commission you are actually entitled to get a 3-day written notice +before we can require you to appear here. However, we do have a +provision in the rules that permit you to waive the notice if you are +agreeable to it. + +Now, the first thing I want to do is ask you if you would like us to +send you the letter, and I want to make it clear that we do send these +letters out as a routine matter, and if for any reason you feel that +you would like to have advance notice and so forth, that we haven't +really given you, why feel free to tell me now. + +Mr. CROY. No; I would just have to come back down here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you are willing to waive? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I also want to explain to you that you have a right to be +represented by counsel before this Commission and again, many of the +people are represented by counsel. I want you to understand that we, in +fact, encourage people to come here with an attorney if they feel there +is any reason at all that it might be useful to them. I see that you +are not here with an attorney right now, and I presume that this is of +your own choice. + +However, if you would like to have an attorney, I wish you would let me +know about it and we would be happy to make arrangements for further +time when you could have one. + +Mr. CROY. I don't see what I would need an attorney for. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think in most cases it is not really necessary, +except from the attorney's standpoint. + +Mr. CROY. He gets paid for doing nothing anyway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, some of them do. + +Mr. CROY. This one does. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you an attorney? + +Mr. CROY. No. I have my own attorney. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I shouldn't have asked that question. All right, if it is +agreeable with you, I will ask you to raise your right hand and I will +administer the oath. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you give us your full name? + +Mr. CROY. Kenneth Hudson Croy. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. CROY. 1658 Glenfield. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? + +Mr. CROY. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born? + +Mr. CROY. February 21, 1937. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. CROY. I have several. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's have them in order. + +Mr. CROY. I am in the real estate business. I have a Mobil service +station. I am in the steel erection business. And I am a professional +cowboy, and that is about it that I can think of right now. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. We Yankees up North don't know what professional cowboys +are. + +Mr. CROY. Rodeo. You got rodeos up North. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; they come up once in a while and alternate with +circuses. How long have you been doing that? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, about 12 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I would not like to waste all the court reporter's time +talking about this, I don't think the Commission would probably be too +interested. + +Are you also connected in some way with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. CROY. I am in the reserves. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the reserves. + +Mr. CROY. Since August of 1959. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any rank in the reserves? + +Mr. CROY. I am a sergeant. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to take out a little time here and mark +two documents. One of them is a report of an interview that you had on +December 4, 1963, with FBI Agents John E. Dallman and R. Neil Quigley. + +I have marked this particular document that I just referred to "Dallas, +Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5051." + +I want to hand this to you, Mr. Croy, and ask you if you have had an +opportunity to read that over? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Do you have any additions, deletions, +or corrections that you feel should be made in that report? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are satisfied with the report, let me ask you then +to sign it and date it. + +Mr. CROY. Where at? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page there some place near where we have +marked it with an exhibit number, some conspicuous spot. + +Mr. CROY. [Signs name.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am marking what purports to be a copy of a letter +dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry and signed by you in +the following manner: "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5052." + +Would you look at this, Mr. Croy, and would you tell me if you have had +an opportunity to read that over? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; I have. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, deletions, or corrections that +you would make with the respect to the accuracy of that letter? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, would you sign that and date it also in the same +manner that you did the other one? + +Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I have also marked for identification what purports +to be a copy of an affidavit in fact, sworn to before A. L. Curtis, +a notary public, by you on December 1, 1963, and I have marked that +"Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5053." + +I am going to hand you that, Mr. Croy, and ask you if you have had an +opportunity to look that over? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; I have. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is that a true and accurate copy of an affidavit +which you prepared on that date? + +Mr. CROY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you then sign it and date it, please? + +Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you report to the jail or the police department on +Sunday, November 24? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you come in, do you recall? + +Mr. CROY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, your letter of November 26 indicates you came in at +8:35? + +Mr. CROY. That is probable. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, sometime after you came in, you were assigned to +guard a particular area of the basement; is that correct? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what you were assigned to do? + +Mr. CROY. When I came into the city hall, I went to the assembly room, +and that is where any initial assignments are made, in the assembly +room, making up the muster and the roster of the reserve officers that +arrived. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? + +Mr. CROY. Well, I was in and out of there, between there and the +basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain on that duty? + +Mr. CROY. I never was relieved from that duty. I went in there, but I +never was relieved from it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have stated in your letter to Chief Curry of +November 26, 1963, in paragraph 3, "I was assigned to the basement and +jail office entrance, and my assignment was that of a guard." + +Mr. CROY. Well, that was in the entire thing down there is +what--everyone in the basement was considered a guard at the same time, +if you are standing in front of the entrances, elevators, or in the +back of the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So you never had any particular station of duty there? + +Mr. CROY. No. I wasn't just assigned a spot and told to stay there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time when you stationed yourself at +the foot of the Main Street ramp in the basement? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About when was that? For how long before Oswald came out, +would you estimate? + +Mr. CROY. Well, I couldn't really estimate, because it has been almost +4 months ago and I don't really know how long it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you took up your position at the base of the +ramp, had the armored car arrived? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The armored car was already there? You weren't there at +any time when the armored car was not there? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you give us any statement of how long you +were there? Were you there for 2 minutes prior to the time Oswald came +down? + +Mr. CROY. I was longer than that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there 15 minutes? + +Mr. CROY. I couldn't say. I don't remember whether I was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you were there as long as 5 minutes? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as long as 10 minutes? + +Mr. CROY. I couldn't say that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in one general area when you stationed +yourself at the bottom of the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to be stationed at that position? + +Mr. CROY. There was another officer, a regular officer, I believe, +commented that they needed at least three more officers at that +particular position. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that regular officer was? + +Mr. CROY. No; I don't. I don't even know who he was. I just remember +there was a regular officer, supervisory officer in uniform stated they +needed at least three more. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he state this to you personally, or were you in a +group at that time? + +Mr. CROY. I was just standing out there on this ramp leading into +the basement where the two ramps lead down into the basement, and he +stepped out there, and as well as I remember, just made a quick check +and pointed out that he needed at least three men at that location. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from the time that you finished doing your clerical +work when you first came in, until you all were ultimately stationed +at the base of the Main Street ramp, did you have any particular +responsibilities? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. There were several reserve officers that were coming +right directly into the basement, and the first reported to the +assembly room to get their assignments or be told what to do. + +I would take these men and take them in there and get them mustered in +on the roster so we would know they were there and have a record. + +I would either tell them where to report, or take them to a certain +station and station them there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, do you recall if you were in the basement when +Captain Jones was there? + +Mr. CROY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you were in the basement when a group +of regular police officers, detectives and so forth came into the +basement from the public elevators that go up into the police building, +and walked through the swinging door and were given assignments by a +regular officer of some sort? Were you there at that time? + +Mr. CROY. I don't guess I was; I don't recall it at all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, while you were stationed at the base of +the Main Street ramp, do you recall if you saw any cars go in and out +of the basement? + +Mr. CROY. There was one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw one car? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were in the basement +generally before you were stationed at the ramp, did you see any cars +go in and out of the garage or basement area? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe how much traffic there was? + +Mr. CROY. No. There wasn't any squads bringing prisoners in, that I +recall. I don't recall any of that. + +I recall one car leaving, going up the south ramp, one car that I know +of, because I knew who was in that car. + +And other than that one and the one that went up the north ramp, I +don't recall any other cars going out of the basement area. There could +have been. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much before you saw that one last car go up the +Main Street ramp, how long would you say you had been in the basement? +How long before that had you been at your station in the basement? + +Mr. CROY. What do you mean? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start over again. How long had you been at this +station which you had at the base of the Main Street ramp prior to the +time that the last car went up the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. CROY. How long had I been in the basement before then? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you been in the general area at the base of +the ramp? Continuously? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know, I guess a couple or 3 minutes, something like +that. I remember that because he nearly ran over my toes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were standing at the base of the ramp prior to +the time that the car went up the ramp, do you remember whether any +equipment of any sort was moved into the basement area? + +Mr. CROY. Equipment? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CROY. Just anything moved in there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any activities of newspaper people or of TV +people? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, they were milling all over the place. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any movement of equipment? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a TV camera being rolled through the +swinging double doors at the entrance, almost at the entrance to +the Main Street ramp or the bottom ramp, and being wheeled in any +direction? Being pushed, a TV camera? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall any bringing in there. They had them down +there in the basement all morning, that I remember. I don't remember +bringing in any more in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you recall the three TV cameras being stationed +there? At this point I would like to hand you my pen and ask you if you +would mark on there? + +Mr. CROY. You want an "X"? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Make a rectangle and write TV inside of it. + +Mr. CROY. [Marks.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have indicated on the map that there were two +behind the railing, sort of directly opposite the hallway that leads +out from the double doors? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And that there was a third one over against the railing of +the entrance to the garage closer to Commerce Street? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that all of those were placed in that +position that they were in, or do you think they could have been +someplace else? + +Mr. CROY. They were placed there when I walked in the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Would you tell us what happened at the time that +this automobile went up the Main Street ramp? Which side of the +automobile were you standing on? Were you standing between it and the +railing, or were you standing between it and the wall? + +Mr. CROY. It and the wall on the left hand side of the car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many people were in that area, would you say, +in the general area across from the wall that you were near, and the +railing across? + +Mr. CROY. Police officers and press? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many would you say were there? + +Mr. CROY. I couldn't say. I don't know. There was several there. They +were all standing out in here, and when the car came out, everybody had +to get out of the way and let the car get through. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any effort to help push the people back? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As cars went up the ramp and got ahead of you people, what +did you do? + +Mr. CROY. I watched it go up the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it stop at the top of the ramp? + +Mr. CROY. No; I just watched it going up the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see the police officer there at the top of the +ramp? + +Mr. CROY. Not at that time, I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At what point did you lose sight? Where was the car when +you lost sight of the car at the top of the ramp? + +Mr. CROY. When he got almost to the top of the ramp, I turned back +around. I didn't watch it drive on out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. As you looked around, did you see anything of +significance? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when somebody gave you instructions +to move the press back against the railing? + +Mr. CROY. Yes, sir; there was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? + +Mr. CROY. Prior to them bringing Oswald down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after the car went up the ramp? + +Mr. CROY. It was after. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it any substantial length of time after? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what makes you sure that it was after the car went up +the ramp? + +Mr. CROY. Because it was just prior to them bringing, just prior to +them bringing him out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you were told that, if you were to assume that +that car moved out of the ramp, approximately 1 minute before Oswald +was shot, would you still feel that this order to move the people back +from the railing was given after the car went up the ramp? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you think it could have been as little as, +no more than a minute after the car went up the ramp? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know how long it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel it was more than a minute after the car went +up the ramp? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You think this order was given more than a minute after +the car went up the ramp? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the officer standing who gave that order? + +Mr. CROY. Somewhere in this general area. He just stepped out of the +little hallway leading to the jail office. I don't know who it was. He +was a detective. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. CROY. In plain clothes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him emerge from the jail office? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He said move everybody back? + +Mr. CROY. Well, he didn't say move everybody back. He said move back +against the railing. At that particular time they were all crowded out +in here and all the way around. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the area right in front of the TV +cameras? + +Mr. CROY. And he said, move the press back against the railing, this +group right here. They didn't move them back because they wasn't +actually--what they were trying to do was clear a hall because they +were crowded right up to the entrance right here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You say there was a group that was standing across the +Main Street ramp that wasn't pushed back? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing? Would you mark on the diagram +where you were standing when the order was given to push the people +back? + +Mr. CROY. Do you want me to put an "X"? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "C" in there and put a circle around it. + +Mr. CROY. [Complies.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you turn around and move the crowd back? + +Mr. CROY. There was a man with a camera, movie camera, sitting on his +shoulder, standing next to me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which direction were you facing? + +Mr. CROY. I was facing to the south. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Toward Commerce Street? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; he would have been to my left. And there was also +another fellow standing just slightly in back of him. + +And when he gave this order to move the people back, I thought he +referred to everyone moving against the rail, because I was in back of +this other group of the press. I didn't bother with them. I let the +ones in front of them take care of them, and I turned to the man with +the camera and this other fellow and told them to move back against the +rail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize this other fellow? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, what did you do? + +Mr. CROY. I turned back around and watched the reporters in front of me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see someone there that you recognized? + +Mr. CROY. Where? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where the reporters were in front of you? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, maybe I don't understand your affidavit here. You +stated in here, "someone in authority gave instructions to move the +press back against the rail. At that time I turned and told two men +standing to my left to move back against the rail. One of these men had +a motion picture camera. The other one was in a dark maroon coat with +black thread woven into it. He was wearing a black hat. My father has a +coat something similar to the man I spoke to. + +"I then turned my attention back to the reporters which were standing +in front of me. I believe this man to have been Jack Ruby." + +The "to" is underlined. Which man are you referring to? + +Mr. CROY. The man with the maroon coat that was standing to my left. +The other man I told to move back against the rail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Miss Reporter, would you please turn back in your notes +and read where he referred to the position of the reporters? + +(The following questions and answers were read: + +"Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see someone there that you recognized? + +"Mr. CROY. Where? + +"Mr. GRIFFIN. Where the reporters were in front of you? + +"Mr. CROY. No.") + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will the reporter please indicate in the record what +portion was read back to the witness? + +Now, you heard the reporter read back that testimony. + +Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. You have said here, if I understand it +in your affidavit, that you saw a man whom you believed to be Jack Ruby. + +Mr. CROY. I believe when I wrote that up it was him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, have you since come to believe that that man +wasn't Jack Ruby? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You still believe that man was Jack Ruby? + +Mr. CROY. To myself, I still believe it was Jack Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. + +Mr. CROY. I don't know whether it was or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you came to believe that man was Jack Ruby? + +Mr. CROY. Well, as I was standing there and this blur came from my +left, someone running, and he run by me at a pretty good clip, he was +gaining momentum and he ran by me. I got a glimpse of his coat and the +coat matched the one that I had told this fellow to move back. At least +it seemed to me it did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man over against the railing? + +Mr. CROY. No; after I turned my attention back to the reporters, I +glanced back over my shoulder to see if they had done what I told them +to, and the man with the camera had gotten on the railing where could +get a good shot. The other fellow, I didn't see him. + +I didn't turn completely all the way around to see if he was in back of +me. I just glanced over my shoulder, so I presume he had gotten against +the railing or had moved around with the other reporters. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how far were you from the railing after you pushed +the reporters back over in that direction? + +Mr. CROY. I didn't push them. I asked them to step back over there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CROY. I was standing about midways to the ramp. Do you know how +wide that ramp is? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a line, a group of people in front of you? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this group, was it sort of in a line that stretched +across from the wall to the railing across the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you say were stretched across there? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. There was quite a few there, but I have no idea +how many were there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any people--as you turned back, were you +also part of a line, a second line? Were you part of a second line? + +Mr. CROY. Not that I know. I was just standing there. There were other +officers to my right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, one straggled line, this first line in +front of you? + +Mr. CROY. What do you mean? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you stating there was a fairly solid front line of +people? + +Mr. CROY. About two deep. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you behind that group of people? + +Mr. CROY. I was behind them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How far behind them were you? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, a couple of feet or 3 feet. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Back where you were standing, were people as closely +bunched up as other people were? + +Mr. CROY. There wasn't anyone to my left other than the two people +I told to move back. To my right there were several other officers +standing there with me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Arnett one of the officers? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you show us where Captain Arnett was? + +Mr. CROY. [Marks.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were to Captain Arnett's right? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You say there was nobody to your left except a man with a +movie camera? + +Mr. CROY. He got back upon the railing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time this man got up on the railing, there was +nobody that you can recall to your left? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you place on the map, on that chart, where you +think Ruby, where you saw this man that you believe to be Ruby, moved +from and to? Could you show us where? + +Mr. CROY. Do you mean after I told him to move? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CROY. I don't know where he moved to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he when you first saw him moving? Did you see +him moving? + +Mr. CROY. Maybe I don't understand you. As he ran into the crowd? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. CROY. After Oswald? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CROY. Where did I see him again? About right there [pointing]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Up in front of you? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; well, to my side. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you put a "R" there where you saw him? + +Mr. CROY. [Makes mark.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody in front of him at that point? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; there was reporters. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There were reporters. Now, what did he do as he got to +these reporters? + +Mr. CROY. He ran through them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he push them aside, or what? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him push them? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see a man shoved? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which man got shoved? + +Mr. CROY. These reporters. He just lowered his head and ran through +them like a fullback went through a line. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel this man move by you, or did you first see +his motion when he was in front of you? + +Mr. CROY. Caught a glimpse of his motion. I have a wide range. I could +see over here. I saw a blur coming in, and, of course, by the time I +turned, he was in position. He was already in front of me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you can't tell from how far he had been running, can +you? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell if he had taken more than one step +before you had seen him? + +Mr. CROY. He had a good head of steam up, I will put it that way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Captain King? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Blackie Harrison? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the people that you saw Ruby push through? + +Mr. CROY. Well, it was just a group of reporters there trying to get +closer to Ruby. I mean to Oswald. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any police officers near Ruby at the time that +he moved through that line? + +Mr. CROY. There were no uniform police officers. If there were some +detectives there, I don't know, because I didn't know any of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were down in the +basement, the 5-minute period that you were in the basement, were you +able to distinguish the plainclothes detectives from the newspaper +people? + +Mr. CROY. No; I was in the basement longer than 5 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The period that you were stationed at the base of the +ramp, the 15 minutes or more, were you able to distinguish the +uniformed officers from the newspaper people? + +Mr. CROY. Uniformed officers; yes. The detectives; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You couldn't distinguish them? All right. Are you able to +describe the relative size of the newspaper reporters that Ruby moved +there, in comparison to him? + +Mr. CROY. No; because this man had run through, Ruby, if it was Ruby, +was in a crouch. He was running low. The newspapermen were of average +height and average build. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How could you tell that the two men he pushed were +newspaper reporters? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. They might have been police officers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody that he pushed by have a camera in his hand or +microphone or a pad of paper or anything? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether they did or not. They were actually +standing in front of me and I was looking at their backs. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen yourself in any photographs that have been +taken of the basement area? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you saw that photograph? Was it a +photograph in a magazine or newspaper or something? + +Mr. CROY. Television. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. A TV film? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what station you saw that on? + +Mr. CROY. All of them. No; I don't. They just ran it and ran it and +reran it, and every time I was in the room, someone said, "There you +are," and I looked again. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a showing that the police department made to you, +or were you shown any films by the police department? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw this film on the regular, your home TV set, +something like that? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in any of these films a shot of Ruby +standing behind a very large man, standing right up at the back of a +very large man, a very tall man, a man perhaps a head taller than he? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If you were shown these particular movie films, TV films +that you saw, could you pick yourself out for us? + +Mr. CROY. Well, the ones that I saw were the ones that I was trying to +get the gun from Ruby, and the ones that they had taken after it was +all over, and I was standing in the entrance to the jail office. Those +are the only ones I have seen. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't see a picture of yourself at the time Ruby +started to move out toward Oswald? + +Mr. CROY. No; I saw the reruns of it when he ran in there and shot him, +but I wasn't visible in that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any one of these films that you watched show you +reaching out and touching the coat of Ruby? + +Mr. CROY. No; none that I saw. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you met Jack Ruby before, haven't you? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many occasions had you seen Jack Ruby before he +came into the basement? + +Mr. CROY. Once, that I can recall. I may have seen him many times +before that, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As a reserve officer, do you have occasion to ride duty in +the downtown area? + +Mr. CROY. Sometimes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say you did duty in the downtown +area? + +Mr. CROY. Requires once a month. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any particular man that you always did duty with? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; there was one that I did ride quite a bit with. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that? + +Mr. CROY. J. W. Dyson. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean in the downtown area, was there one that you rode +with? + +Mr. CROY. I didn't ride in any particular downtown area over twice +since I have been in the reserves, I don't guess. As a district in the +downtown area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to ride out in the area of the +Vegas Club? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would you ride in that area? + +Mr. CROY. I have ridden out there a couple or three times. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you ride that area with? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just went to the substation and checked out +with the squad. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Dyson assigned to that area? + +Mr. CROY. No; he is an APB. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is West Illinois Avenue anywhere near the Vegas Club? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about around 1720 South Lamar, is that anywhere near? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever testified in any court case before? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did there come a time when +you ran up the Main Street ramp and stopped reporters leaving? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after this scuffle on the floor? + +Mr. CROY. That is hard to say, because it was right there, you might +say, right with the scuffle on the floor that they said "seal the +basement." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand up there at the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, just a few minutes. Then I moved to the entrance into the +jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? + +Mr. CROY. A good while. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what time did you go off duty? + +Mr. CROY. It was about 8 o'clock that night. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. During that period, did you tell anybody that you had seen +a man brush by you who you thought was Ruby? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you tell at that time? + +Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Reserve Lieutenant McCoy? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall if I mentioned it or not to Reserve Lieutenant +Nicholson, I may have. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Nicholson? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Lieutenant McCoy say when you told him that? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he said. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you tell him about it? + +Mr. CROY. We were just talking about it later on that afternoon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what were you saying? + +Mr. CROY. We were just talking about what happened in the basement, +where he was at and where I was at. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you speculating about where he came from or how he +got in or anything like that? + +Mr. CROY. A little bit, I am trying to figure out what the heck +happened, really. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other officers in the basement doing that also? + +Mr. CROY. They were doing it just between theirselves. There wasn't any +group talking about it, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was it that you talked, approximately, to +Lieutenant McCoy? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this, you say, a short time after you left your +position up on the Main Street ramp, or was it a long time after? + +Mr. CROY. It was a pretty good while after. An hour. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. An hour or so? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you told this Lieutenant McCoy +and you went off duty, what did you do? + +Mr. CROY. I sat up in the city planning room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there in the city planning room? + +Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy and Reserve Lieutenant Barney Merrell. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else you can recall? + +Mr. CROY. Reserve Lieutenant Nicholson. And there was Captain Solomon +up there, and Captain Arnett, and several other reserve officers, that +we kind of set up a command post, is actually what it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing up there? + +Mr. CROY. Making assignments. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was giving you directions? + +Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of assignments were you making? + +Mr. CROY. Placing the men in different spots throughout the city hall +and seeing that they were relieved, and calling on the telephone to get +some more help. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some time to sit around and talk? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk about what you had seen down in the +basement? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell these men out there about Ruby brushing past +you? + +Mr. CROY. I talked to Lieutenant McCoy about it. I don't know whether +Mike Nicholson and Merrell were there at that particular time or not. I +don't know whether they overheard what we were talking about or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon at that time make any request +that people write reports about what they had seen? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the regular officers, these other +people who had been down in the basement, were being asked to make +reports? + +Mr. CROY. No; I didn't know they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you expect that you would be asked to make a report of +what happened in the basement? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You expected that while you were sitting up there in the +office? + +Mr. CROY. I had a pretty good hunch they would. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which +we have marked Exhibit 5052, which is a copy of a letter that you +prepared for Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, was that prepared +down in the police department, or was that prepared at one of your +business offices? + +Mr. CROY. That was prepared at the Dallas Police Academy. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? + +Mr. CROY. On Shorecrest back of the northwest substation. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that prepared by hand? + +Mr. CROY. Yes, it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you responsible for getting the typing done? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that report over to? + +Mr. CROY. Captain Solomon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then was it his responsibility to get the typing done? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just turned it in. What he did with it, I +don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it eventually come back to you? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The typed copy never came back to you? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen a copy of that statement since you signed it? + +Mr. CROY. Just a while ago. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that the statement +that you signed is a complete and accurate copy of the statement that +you prepared in your own hand in the police department? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what day it was, the day you prepared that +statement? + +Mr. CROY. The following Tuesday night. I don't know what date it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mr. Croy, why didn't you mention in this report, +dated November 26, your seeing this man you believe to be Ruby? + +Mr. CROY. Why didn't I mention that in there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CROY. Because at that time Captain Solomon told me that there would +be another report made and I would have to go downtown to the city hall +before a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the +time being, and put this in this other affidavit that you have, that +this right here was just basically to find out where we were in the +city hall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then when you prepared this other statement on December 1, +who called you and how did you come to go before Notary Public A. L. +Curtis? + +Mr. CROY. He is a lieutenant. After I signed it, I took it there to be +notarized by him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, how did you happen to--was this done in the +police department? + +Mr. CROY. Yes, it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to the police department that day? + +Mr. CROY. They called me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called you? + +Mr. CROY. Captain Arnett. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Captain Arnett down at the police department? + +Mr. CROY. Yes, I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with him before this statement was drawn up? + +Mr. CROY. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to before the statement was drawn up? + +Mr. CROY. Lieutenant Revill. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lieutenant Revill have any information before him +about this, about your having seen Ruby? Did Lieutenant Revill have any +information before him about your having seen Ruby go into the, brush +by you? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't have any information to that effect? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be called down there? + +Mr. CROY. Because of my position in the basement where I was standing +when he shot Oswald. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did Captain Solomon say to you when +you told what you had seen to Revill? Did Revill indicate that he had +heard about this before, about your having been a witness to this? + +Mr. CROY. Not that I recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; Lieutenant, I think his name is Cornwall, he was present. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did either of them indicate surprise by having seen this? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You got the impression from the way they spoke, or +any impression from the way they spoke, that they had heard this +information before? + +Mr. CROY. Well, they didn't act surprised. They didn't act like they +didn't know about it. It kind of tied in with the other reports that +they had gotten, I presume, from the way they acted. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was the general attitude on their part in the +taking of these statements. Did you feel that there was some, Cornwall +and Revill were concerned about this situation? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe their general attitude in this +interview? + +Mr. CROY. They were very interested. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you tell me more about that? + +Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to +get that up. That is how interested they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours? + +Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 +hours each day. That is pretty interesting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Croy, I take it that you actually talked to them on +November, the last day of November was the first time you talked to +them, and then you signed this on the first day of December? + +Mr. CROY. What it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it +up. Then the next day I went back down there and they re-read it to me +and went over and over and over and over the same thing over and over +again. And then I took it into Lieutenant Curtis and signed it and had +it notarized. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that examination the way you and I have been going +back and forth here? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of drafts to this statement? You say +it took you 2 days to draw this up. Had you written a number? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write something first? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they take notes as you talked with them? + +Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked +everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back +over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next +day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they critical of you in any way for not having +ejected Ruby the first time that you saw him in the basement? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to them at that time that you didn't know +who he was when you first saw him? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; I didn't know who he was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw this man, did you believe that he was a +newspaper reporter? + +Mr. CROY. I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell that to Lieutenant Revill and Captain +Cornwall? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Ruby location at the time Croy +saw him moving toward Oswald." Is that a fair description of what the +hieroglyphics on here mean? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, +Exhibit 5054," and what I have marked on is the chart upon which you +made a certain mark while you described to me what happened when you +saw a man you believed to be Ruby run toward Oswald. + +Now, let me ask you to sign that, if you believe that is an accurate +copy of the real McCoy. Would you date it also? + +Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any other information that you could +provide the Commission of any significance? + +Mr. CROY. None other than what we have talked about right here. + +(Statement to witness by court reporter.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell me about your conversation that you had +with our court stenographer here prior to coming in here, about Tippit? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, it was at the scene over where Officer Tippit was killed, +at the scene. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the scene when Tippit was there? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Unassigned? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are nodding your head? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed? + +Mr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you on reserve duty that day? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the +1800 or 1900 block of Main Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a patrol car? + +Mr. CROY. No; I was on foot. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform? + +Mr. CROY. In uniform. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot? + +Mr. CROY. Sitting in my car at the city hall. I would guess, I don't +know, because I didn't know he was shot until, I guess, several minutes +after it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where you were located when you heard he was shot? + +Mr. CROY. No. I was on Main Street trying to go home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were driving your car down Main Street? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About where were you on Main Street? + +Mr. CROY. Griffin. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Griffin Street? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that President Kennedy had +been shot? + +Mr. CROY. I didn't do anything. I was right in the middle of the street +with my car hemmed in from both sides. I couldn't go anywhere. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As soon as you got unhemmed, what did you do? + +Mr. CROY. I went by the courthouse there and there were several +officers standing there, and I asked if they needed any help. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive your car to the courthouse? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which courthouse? + +Mr. CROY. There was only one courthouse. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a county courthouse? + +Mr. CROY. There is. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Federal courthouse, also, but this is the one +right there by the plaza and near the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. CROY. The old red courthouse. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On Houston Street? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the corner of Houston and Main? + +Mr. CROY. Houston and Main and Elm. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you heard that President Kennedy was shot +did you arrive there? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, I guess it took me at least 20 minutes to drive those few +blocks. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you say it was when you arrived at the +courthouse? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see when you arrived there? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, there was some officers standing on the corner, I don't +know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you inquire of somebody there if you could be of +assistance? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Whom did you inquire of? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. They were just standing on the corner, and I +asked if I could be of any assistance. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, what did you do? + +Mr. CROY. I proceeded on home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which way did you drive home? + +Mr. CROY. Out Thornton to Colorado, and Colorado to--I can't think of +the street. It was Marsalis. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that---- + +Mr. CROY. Or Zangs. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Thornton to Zangs? + +Mr. CROY. Thornton to Colorado to Zangs. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then out Zangs and in a westerly direction? + +Mr. CROY. No. That is when I heard the call on Tippit. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at the corner of Zangs and Colorado? + +Mr. CROY. When the call came out on Tippit. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. CROY. I proceeded to the location where Tippit was shot. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? + +Mr. CROY. I think it was in the 400 block of East 10th, I believe it +was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what street intersection that was? + +Mr. CROY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe that area out there? + +Mr. CROY. Just residential. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there---- + +Mr. CROY. Where Tippit was killed, you mean? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you went to where Tippit was? + +Mr. CROY. Well, the street where he was killed was a residential area. +The street immediately south of that, Jefferson, is business. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, I am just referring to the street you found +him on. When you got there, was Tippit's car there? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tippit there? + +Mr. CROY. They were loading him in the ambulance. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other officers on the scene? + +Mr. CROY. None that I saw. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got there? + +Mr. CROY. Got me a witness. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get ahold of? + +Mr. CROY. It was a woman standing across the street from me. I don't +recall her name. She gave me her name at that time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you? + +Mr. CROY. She told me that she saw Tippit get out of the car, and I +don't recall, I think she said he stepped back a couple of foot and +shot him and then ran. She was pretty hysterical at that particular +time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you where she first saw Oswald? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. There was, as I +recall, there was 2 people who saw it. No; 3. A man in a, taxicab +driver. However, she was the main eyewitness, as far as I could make +out. She saw the actual shooting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with her? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, a good 5 or 10 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other officers there with you when you were +talking with her? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; and no. I talked to her, and then they talked to her, +and then I talked to her, and just after I located a witness, the squad +did get there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This conversation all took place near the scene of the +Tippit killing? + +Mr. CROY. Leaning up against his car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you and the other officers talked with her, did +she tell you where she was that she first saw Oswald? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. She was pretty +hysterical and not much that she said made too much sense. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What was she saying? + +Mr. CROY. She talked very incoherent at that particular time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What information were you able to get out of her at that +time? + +Mr. CROY. The only information I could get out of her was the +description of what Oswald had on, and him shooting him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you at that time that he had on? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he had on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall what it was. She just gave a description there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you file any report of your activities this day? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of the other officers who were +there with you when you were interviewing this woman? + +Mr. CROY. No; I know them on sight. They all work in Oak Cliff and I +don't know the names. I just know when I see them driving down the +street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the taxi driver? + +Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. I talked to the taxi driver. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was? + +Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective +agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun +and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that +had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone +out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun +and attempted to give chase or something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness? + +Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness? + +Mr. CROY. As far as I know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to the taxicab driver? + +Mr. CROY. No; I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, +and I turned him over to them and they questioned him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the third eyewitness that you say you talked +with there? + +Mr. CROY. I believe it was a man that was standing there in the yard. +He said he saw Oswald just walk up the street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction did he say? + +Mr. CROY. He didn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But he saw Oswald walking some blocks to where he got to +before he got to Tippit's car? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you that he saw Oswald do walking up the +street? + +Mr. CROY. He just said he saw him walking up the street, and this other +lady said that, I believe it was, that Tippit had stopped him and +called him over to the car, and he came around to the driver's side, +because Tippit was by himself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Oswald came around? + +Mr. CROY. To the driver's side of the car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the lady that said that? + +Mr. CROY. The lady said that, and she said, I think she said, he stuck +his head in the car and they talked, and he stepped back a couple or +3 feet, and Tippit opened the door to get out, and when he got out, +Oswald pulled the pistol out and shot him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a lady? The man or the lady that said this? + +Mr. CROY. The lady. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did the man who was walking, who saw Oswald +walking up the street, tell you? + +Mr. CROY. He just said he saw him walking up the street just prior to +the shooting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say he saw him arrive at the car? + +Mr. CROY. No; I turned him over to some other officers and they talked +to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to determine from them what direction he saw +Oswald walking? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall this man's name? + +Mr. CROY. No; I found the witness and took him to the other officers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the Tippit--how long did you remain at the +scene of the Tippit killing? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, +something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go? + +Mr. CROY. Home. I went to eat. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, at some restaurant or something? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain home the rest of the day? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to the police department on the---- + +Mr. CROY. Next day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Next day? + +Mr. CROY. I believe it was the next day. No; that was the 22d. +Saturday, I didn't go to the police department that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the scene of the Tippit killing, did you +inquire there as to whether or not you could be of any assistance? + +Mr. CROY. Well, when I left, I asked them if they thought they needed +me any longer, and they said, "No," so I left. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you been interviewed by an FBI agent or any +agent of the Federal Government with respect to what you have just told +us here? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Dallas +Police Department with respect to what you have told us here? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the--how many police officers came out to the +scene of the Tippit killing while you were there? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. There was a slew of them. That would be hard to +say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any officers there that you knew? + +Mr. CROY. There were several officers there that I knew. I don't know +their names. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any officers there that you knew? + +Mr. CROY. I am sure there is. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know them? + +Mr. CROY. The same way I know them, just by sight. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have anything else of value that you know you +could contribute to the Commission? + +Mr. CROY. Not that I know of. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the +street? + +Mr. CROY. I don't recall. I think she lived across the street. She was +standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have the impression that she lived across the +street, in a house across the street? + +Mr. CROY. I believe she did. I am not sure either, or it was in the +neighborhood and she was there in the yard. She was across the street +when it happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard? + +Mr. CROY. Or something. She was standing in the yard doing something. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first thing you indicated was, she had been +watering her yard? Apparently that was something that stuck with you +from, of course, talking with her? + +Mr. CROY. I don't remember what she said she was doing. She was doing +something in the yard, and I presume that is where she lived was across +the street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go to the theatre where +Oswald was apprehended? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or go near there? + +Mr. CROY. I went by it, yes; within a block of it on the way home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Oswald been apprehended by the time you got there? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that? + +Mr. CROY. They were on their way up there. There had been a report that +he had gone into the Texas Theatre. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening to your police radio? + +Mr. CROY. No. I was standing at the scene, and there had been several +reports. One, that he, of course, they said that the killer did go into +a church, which was in sight of where they were at. And another report, +that he had gone into the library over on Jefferson. And they had all, +most of the officers except maybe one or two had left the scene where +Tippit was killed and gone to the spot. + +And as I got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into +the Texas Theatre, a man fitting Oswald's description had ran into the +Texas Theatre. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That was about the time you got into the automobile? + +Mr. CROY. Just as I was fixing to leave. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your police radio on in your car? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So you drove over there by the--near the theatre? + +Mr. CROY. Well, I drove on up 10th Street. I believe it was 10th +Street. On up to Zangs, and when I got to Zangs, took a left, and at +the end of Zangs, at the corner of Zangs and Jefferson, it is just a +block away, I could see them rushing out to the front and the back. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as you saw them rushing out? + +Mr. CROY. They had more help than they needed, so I went on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to listen to your police radio? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything more over the radio about what +happened? + +Mr. CROY. No. I only had channel 1 on my radio. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How far a drive is it from the Texas Theatre to where you +live? + +Mr. CROY. About 3 miles. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long does it take to drive that distance? + +Mr. CROY. About 10 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas +Theatre from your automobile? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know they were going into the, men were +rushing into the theatre just as you went by? + +Mr. CROY. There were three cars in the back and about three in the +front, and there wasn't nobody in them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove right by the front of the theatre? + +Mr. CROY. I drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, +and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, +parking lots. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many cars could you see there? + +Mr. CROY. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or +three in the front, plus another on the way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the +front or the back of the theatre? + +Mr. CROY. It didn't go by either one of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which street was that? + +Mr. CROY. Zangs. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many blocks is it from the theatre? + +Mr. CROY. One. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What street is the theatre on? + +Mr. CROY. Jefferson. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What street does it back on to? + +Mr. CROY. In backs into an alley. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the alley? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would you say that Jefferson or the Texas +Theatre is from Zangs? + +Mr. CROY. I don't know. I would say not a very long block. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were driving up Zangs, I take it you were +driving away from town? + +Mr. CROY. South. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. South on Zangs at Jefferson? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue south? + +Mr. CROY. I continued south. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you proceed to your home from there? + +Mr. CROY. Well, I didn't go home. I went to eat. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to eat? + +Mr. CROY. Austin Barbecue. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? + +Mr. CROY. On the corner of Hampton and Illinois. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get to Hampton and Illinois? + +Mr. CROY. From Zangs to Illinois. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what direction? + +Mr. CROY. West. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that left or right? + +Mr. CROY. It is a right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then how far up Illinois to Hampton? + +Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a long ways. It is a good stretch. Zangs +Place is about the 300 or 400 block and Illinois intersects at about +the 2100 or 2200 block. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How far driving was it from the Texas Theatre to this +place that you had dinner or lunch? + +Mr. CROY. Well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so +it is 3 miles from there, so about 2-1/2 miles. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house? + +Mr. CROY. Straight up Illinois, west on Illinois. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is your house on Illinois? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner? + +Mr. CROY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there that you knew? + +Mr. CROY. My wife. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was your appointment? + +Mr. CROY. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone +right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, +and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she +was a little mad. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her? + +Mr. CROY. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She +was in her car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she +when you saw each other? + +Mr. CROY. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if +anybody needed me there, and they said, "No," and here she comes and I +said, "Do you want to get something to eat?" And she said, "Yes." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You said you would be right there? + +Mr. CROY. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at +my mother's and dad's. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what +did you do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to +Tippit's place on the way home? + +Mr. CROY. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my +mother's and dad's house at that particular time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's +and dad's house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that +particular time? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your mother's and dad's house from the place +that you had dinner? + +Mr. CROY. It is quite a ways. It is about 3 or 4 miles. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go from where you had your lunch or dinner to +your mother's and dad's house? + +Mr. CROY. Straight out north on Hampton. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. North on Hampton? + +Mr. CROY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were living in your mother's and dad's house at that +time? + +Mr. CROY. I slept there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was your wife living there also? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated from her? + +Mr. CROY. No. + +(To reporter: Don't put that in there.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated at that time? + +Mr. CROY. At that time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you think that you could tell +as a result of your experiences on the 22d, 23d, or 24th, or any other +time that would be helpful to us, either in the investigation of the +assassination of President Kennedy, or the murder of Jack Ruby. + +Mr. CROY. You mean Oswald? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CROY. None that I know of. That is as well as I can remember it of +what happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILBUR JAY CUTCHSHAW + +The testimony of Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March +26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record again. My name is Burt +Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's +office of the President's Commission on the assassination of President +Kennedy. This Commission was established as a result of an Executive +order that was signed by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, +and a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to that joint +resolution and the Executive order the Commission has prescribed a +set of procedures, and in accordance with this provision I have been +authorized to take your deposition, Mr. Cutchshaw. + +I want to tell you first of all a little bit about the scope of the +investigation. The Commission has been directed by the President to +inquire into and ascertain all the facts that have to do with the +assassination of President Kennedy and with the subsequent murder of +Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate these facts and report back to the +President. + +We don't have any authority here to prosecute any crimes. We are not +investigating for that purpose. The only crime that can be committed +in connection with this investigation is the crime of perjury. We are +here to try to determine the facts, and in order to make sure that +the events that have transpired over the last few months will not +be repeated in the future, if that is possible, and to attempt to +determine whether there is still any danger to our chief officers in +Government and the national security. + +In doing this, we have had hundreds of interviews conducted by +various members of the Federal investigatory agencies, and perhaps +hundreds is an understatement. It may be thousands. We have a stack of +documents over in a corner that would frighten you. It just represents +people who have been talked to by the various Federal Bureaus. Now +we are undertaking to talk to a few other people that we think are +particularly central in terms of having information that would be +useful. + +As to you, Mr. Cutchshaw, we have asked you to come here because we +want to ascertain what you know in particular about the death of +Oswald, and we also, however, want any pertinent facts that you may +have that would bear upon the entire picture. + +You have been asked to appear here as a result of a letter which was +mailed to Chief Curry in the form of a general request from Mr. J. +Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission. +Actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled +to get a personal letter from the Commission, and 3 days before you +testify here. However, the rules do provide that you can waive that +particular letter, or 3-day written notice. Now, the first thing I want +to ask you is if you would like us to send you a letter, or if you +prefer to waive the 3-day notice? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I will waive that notice. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, the rules of the Commission provide that you are +entitled to be represented by counsel at any time, and many of the +people do have attorneys here. I want you to feel that we welcome your +availing yourself of this opportunity if you want to, but I see that +you are not here with an attorney, and I presume by that fact that +you have decided that you don't want one. But if you do feel that you +would like one, please feel free to indicate right now and we will +certainly---- + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't feel I need one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, let me ask you to raise your right hand and swear +you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give +is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Cutchshaw? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. May 27, 1923. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. 401 Southwest 22d, Grand Prairie, Tex. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Police officer, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. A little over 9 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Criminal investigation division, juvenile bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any particular rank in the department? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Detective. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 2-1/2 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you the time before that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Radio patrol. Mostly working in the West Dallas area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work in the downtown Dallas area? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I worked downtown there for about a month. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before the time he shot Lee Oswald? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I had seen him one time before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the Carousel on Commerce. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see him? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I went up in his place one night. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before he shot Oswald? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That's been about 2-1/2 years ago, the first time I saw +him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a +copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agents Mabey and Hughes, +purporting to report an interview they had with you on December 2, +1963. I am marking this "Dallas, Tex., Detective Cutchshaw, 3-26-64, +Exhibit 5042." I have marked for identification the interview report of +December 2, 1963, by Mabey and Hughes as Exhibit 5042. I have marked +what purports to be a copy of a letter signed by you to Chief Curry, +dated November 24, 1963, as Exhibit 5043. And I have marked as Exhibit +5044 a copy of a report by FBI Agent James W. Bookhout, relating to an +interview that Bookhout had with you on November 24th. That is Exhibit +5044. Now, have you had a chance to look over these two interview +reports and a copy of your letter? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections that you would want +to make in those documents? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see any that I would want to make. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay; now, you were up in the juvenile bureau all of +Sunday morning until you were called down in the basement; is that +right? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were up there, do you +recall who was on duty? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. Officer Goolsby was working the desk, +and Lowery and myself and Harrison and Miller, I believe it was, and, +oh, yes, June McLine, a policewoman. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall when it was that you first had any +information that Lee Oswald might be moved to the county jail? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I can remember is that Chief Stevenson came up and +told us he wanted us all to stay up in the office, and at that time it +was about 9 o'clock, I believe it was. And he said that they had to +form a security when they moved Oswald, but as far as knowing exactly +what time, I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it? What makes you say that he came up +about 9 o'clock? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember that he said we had to be there +between, I believe it was, 9 and 10, and so I looked out the window at +the clock, but I didn't have my watch, because I had these trousers +that didn't have a watch pocket, because I have a pocket watch. I don't +have a wrist watch, and out the window we have a sign that has a big +clock. I said I better call the boys from the cafe. + +They had already left to go to the cafe, but it was about 9 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were they? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Blackie Harrison and L. D. Miller. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you say that to? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe I asked Captain Martin if he wanted me to call +and tell them to come back. He said tell them to get back as soon as +possible. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call over at the cafe? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked somebody what the number was, and I think it was +a man on the desk, but it was Goolsby was the one that made the call. I +am not sure as to whether he did or not. I know somebody had to look it +up in the book what the number was over there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall whether you made the telephone call or +Goolsby made it? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I sure don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where it was you called? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I know where they went. I say I think I do. The Deluxe +Diner, right across from the library on Commerce. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because that is where they said they were going. That is +what we call the "greasy spoon." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Miller and Harrison about their +testimony before the Commission? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty yesterday? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What duty hours are you working now? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I work from 8 to 4. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What are your days off? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened? Do you recall Harrison and +Miller coming back from the diner? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I know the next time I saw them they were down in +the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anybody coming in and directing you to go +down to the basement? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain O. A. Jones. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that was? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I believe that was just before 11 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time at 11 o'clock? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know we weren't down there too long, and when +they brought Oswald and he was shot, I think it was a little after 11, +or 20 minutes after, something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that +time? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was Detective Goolsby, R. L. Lowery, and +myself, and I don't remember who else went down. I know we three were +together. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened when you got out of the +elevator? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right +in front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. They +had an officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said +went down with you? Goolsby, Lowery, and who else? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is the only two, is Officer Goolsby, Lowery, and +myself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where Miller and Harrison were? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't. I did see them after that. He came in +there, and I asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back +from the cafe he went down in the basement, which is our locker room, +to get some cigars. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the lobby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office, +what happened? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones came in and told us that we were going +to have to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are +authorized, which was the police officers and the news media. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about what you should do when +Oswald came down? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He said to try to keep everybody back and not to let +them get too close to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed along one of the walls; didn't you? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was at the door where the doors come out of the jail +lobby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and +indicate on the diagram where. Would it be easier to turn it around the +other way? Indicate where you were. [Diagram marked Cutchshaw Exhibit +No. 5046.] + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back +inside the jail, and I was right here at this. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was standing right here by the side of the door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, did you remain there the entire time? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; until after the shooting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did Captain Jones tell you to do at that +particular time? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones told us what he wanted done, for us to +line up the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers +lined over here, so I just got at that position. He didn't put us at +any particular position. So I was over here. And there was a bunch of +newsmen in this area in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In the jail office? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the jail office. And I asked him about those and he +said he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office +except the officers here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is behind the desk? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you cleared out those news people in the jail office, +did anybody help you? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; Captain Jones was there. He was right there, and +he came in with me, and I believe it was a, I think it was Lieutenant +Wiggins that was on duty that morning. I'm not too sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspaper people would you estimate were in there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would say there were about seven or eight in there at +the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where those people went? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; they came out this door and to the left. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The door where you stationed yourself? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all go out and turn left as they got out? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They all turned to the left, and two of them, I don't +know who they were, I would recognize them if I say them, came into +this area here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Came behind the double doors? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Came back in from the double doors in front of the jail +office window. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" on the map where the people were? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I wouldn't know the exact position where they went, but +two of them went in here, and one came back out here and stood for a +minute. I will put it right in front of this window right here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. One of them went in there and stayed, and the other one +went in and came out? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; he came out and was standing out here for a +moment. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he go? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We made him get back of the hallway, and I think I was +right about in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "N" where that newspaper man was. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the remainder of the newspaper people go? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They went back into this area along there. They got a +pipe rail here, and they had officers along, and somewhere in behind +these offices along that rail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place on the map where you recall seeing TV +cameras? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Put an "N" or what? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you draw sort of a rectangle of some sort and +write TV. Make it big enough. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. [Complies.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any other TV cameras in the basement, that +you recall? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not right at first, but another one did come in through +the door and went down to this position here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark this spot that it went to? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The last position I saw it in was about in here +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald came down did that TV camera come +out through the double doors and go down to the spot that you have +marked in the entrance to the garage? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Oh, about 2 or 3 minutes. Just prior to when they were +coming down. It is when they were coming down. It is when they came +through the door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at any time while you were down there, was there a TV +camera along the wall that Lowery was on? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This one right here that came through here, and Lowery +was standing right here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "L" where Lowery was. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And they came through right down by him, down this ramp +here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever a TV camera stationed there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not that I remember; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if the TV camera which you saw go out into +the garage area, came down through the public elevators, or through the +jail office elevators? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't see them come down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come through the double doors? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He came through the double doors here, and the service +elevator, public elevators over here. They came through here. As far as +where they came in, they didn't come out of the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you clear the newspaper people out of the jail office +before or after this TV camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It was before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After the TV camera came down, where did you station +yourself? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was right back in this door, the same place. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Still there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you look out towards the TV cameras from time to time? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yeah. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what you saw as you looked out towards the TV +cameras? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Mostly saw lights. I mostly saw lights were shining in +my eyes here, but there was a line of men along here which consisted of +officers and news media. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know when they were trying to back it down, but +it couldn't get through. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember Chief Batchelor being up there by the +armored car? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see the armored car from where I was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in this position that you have +marked with an "X" after the TV camera came through? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean how long did I stay there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Until after the officers and Lee Oswald came through. +Then I stepped up maybe one or two steps behind them, and that is when +the shot rang out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of the officers here in this area along +the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think there was one standing right here, and one +right here. But just who they were, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of them up further across the Main Street +ramp? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember seeing any. I know there was a line of +men along there, and who they were, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. From where you were standing, you could see the TV camera +going in that direction, couldn't you? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I saw the TV camera over here; yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see from where you were standing any people in +front of that TV camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; not that I can remember except there were people +right in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate where you saw people congregating over +in the area of the entrance to the garage? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I think there were some--I will put a couple of +"X's"--I think there were some along there, and there were people right +along here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you able to see how many lines of people there +were along across the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Rio Pierce, the same Pierce car go up the ramp? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it break through the line of newsmen? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Did I see a car break through the line? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I know, it went up, or when it cleared the way, I +know the car did go up, because I don't know how many people---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't actually see the car reach the top of the ramp? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you lose sight of that car? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When it went up past this line here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On November 24, the day that Oswald was shot, you prepared +a letter to Chief Curry, and you were also interviewed by Agent +Bookhout. Do you remember those two things? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether you prepared your letter to Curry +before or after you were interviewed by Bookhout? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It was before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after the shooting, did you go back into +the jail office? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You followed Ruby and Oswald back in there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I helped carry--I had hold of Ruby's left hand up +as far as the jail office door. And all of us couldn't get through at +the same time, so I released, because there was another man right in +front at his shoulder, so I let go so they could get in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think I was, because I was there at the door +keeping other people out--after I got in. Let me put it like this: +After we got Ruby on the inside, I slammed the door, too. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you left the jail office? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; there was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Ruby shot Oswald would you say that was? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine it was only a couple of minutes. Just a very +short time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I notified this TV camera officer here with two men, +I went over to talk to them, because they were trying to push it up +this ramp by theirselves, and I do remember seeing three men with that +camera at one time, and there was only two men at the time trying to +push it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what TV camera that was? What station? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Channel 5 on the camera box. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you subsequently learned that it was a Dallas channel +5? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think so, that channel 5. I believe it is a Fort +Worth station. It is one of them, got two of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What channel is channel 5? What station? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe that is a Fort Worth station. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What are the call letters on that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it in your statement anywhere? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know. I don't think I know the call letters. +Just channel 5 is the only thing I saw on the box. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men were over at the camera at that time? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I was standing at the door, I had it closed, and I +looked out and I saw the camera here with only two men. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go over to the camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember three men being with the camera in +this area here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have reason to think one of them might be +Ruby? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't at the time, because I figured if there were +three men pushing it out, why wouldn't there be three men trying to get +it up the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see get it up the ramp? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Two. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you detain those men? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody assist? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Officer Lowery. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not at the time, because we finally got Lieutenant Swain +over there and he talked with them awhile, and at that time when he and +Lowery had them, or Swain talked to them, we got their names where we +would be able to ask information of them later. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the first one of the two of you to arrive at the +TV cameras? Was it Lowery or was he there when you came up? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later did Lowery come up? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I got over there and this one, I don't know what +the names are, I think this one that had the coat on was Alexander, as +well as I can remember. He was kind of nervous and shaky. So, then I +called Lowery to help me out, because I didn't know whether they might +be involved or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where Lowery was standing when you called +him over? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he was right over in this area. I am not too +sure, but I think he was, because I could see him from here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The point you are talking about is in front of the double +doors? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Between the double doors and the driveway close to, I +call that the north wall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time Lowery arrived, was Lieutenant Swain +there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How much longer would you say after Lowery arrived did +Lieutenant Swain? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the process after I got Lowery over there and +we were holding them, we tried to stop two or three officers prior to +that, supervisory officers, and they were in a hustle trying to get +around, and they finally got Swain, and I think it was maybe 5 or 6 +minutes after Lowery got there, and they got Lieutenant Swain to come +over and talk to them. Not to talk, but for us to have a conference as +to what to do about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you talk with Lieutenant Swain? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I imagine it was about 3 or 4 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Lowery turn the two TV men over to Lieutenant +Swain? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I got the names and everything, Lowery started +getting their names and I left. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lowery take the names down in a notebook? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He took the names and he turned them over to the +homicide office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You left, and where did you go? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I came back upstairs to my office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On the third floor? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Room 314. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I waited up there until further information. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you wait? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know. We was up there for quite a while. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you eventually go out to Love Field? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you went out to Love Field, did you prepare a +report of what had happened down in the basement? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; that is where I went, I am sorry. I am getting +confused, but when I left the basement, I talked to somebody downstairs +about it, and I think that was Captain Jones, and he said, "Well, go +upstairs and write out your report, whatever you know, or what you +saw." And I went to the homicide bureau first and made out my report in +written letter form that you have, and gave it to the homicide office +up there, and then I went to my room, which is room 314. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so at the time you prepared this letter dated--let me +ask you this: Let me hand you Exhibit 5043. Is that a true and accurate +copy of a report that you wrote out in the homicide bureau? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Let me take a minute here [reading report]. You mean +word for word? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: I notice you pulled out a set of +papers from your pocket. You have a copy of the actual report you +prepared? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I have a copy which is one of the Xerox copies of +the report which I wrote. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we made a photocopy of that? And retain +it for our files? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't. In fact, it looks like--that is my +handwritten copy. I don't know whether you can read it or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think I can make out your handwriting here. I am +referring now to the copy of the handwritten report which Detective +Crenshaw prepared on November 24, 1963, in the homicide bureau office. +Approximately how long after Ruby shot Oswald? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 20 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been longer than that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It could have been longer, but it was approximately 20 +minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as long as 2 hours later? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was that long. It might have been the +way things were, but I remember when I left the basement, I did go +upstairs, and I did go to the homicide office and that is where I wrote +the report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up to homicide because somebody in the basement +told you to go up and write a report on what you saw? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones. I know he told me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And there was a standing order to put it down in writing +what you saw and what you did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after everything had been quieted down in the +basement? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; well, now, I am losing track of my time again. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It is important that we try to straighten this out. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Let's see. I will have to retract some of them. I don't +want to state it that way. But so far as what I have said, it is true, +but as far as my time element is concerned, when I left, I had to go up +to the first floor, and I kept seeing people coming in and out. + +We have three entrances. The Harwood, Main and Commerce, and I think +there was four of us which were taking names of people coming in and +leaving, and checking their identification. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which entrance was it you were at? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was checking the Commerce side. I was inside the +building close to the information desk, but checking those coming in +and leaving the Commerce Street entrance to the building. So it might +have been about 2 hours after, because I know I was down there for +quite awhile. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were at the Commerce Street side, were you at the +door going out of the building? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I was in the hallway close to the entrance of the +hallway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As you said before, closer to the information desk? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Closer to the information where the hallway is in front +of the desk. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the first floor and not in the basement? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. It is on the first floor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was up there with you taking names? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Lowery there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Harrison there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't think he was there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody from the juvenile bureau there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was the only one from the juvenile. There was about +four or five officers, two at the desk and one at the Harwood side +there, checking those, and one on the other side of the desk checking +those coming from the Main Street, and I was on Commerce Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of the people up there what you had seen? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; not that I can remember. You mean what I saw down in +the basement? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; about your suspicion about those guys pushing the +camera. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you taken off that duty by anybody? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Lieutenant came down and told us it was all right +to secure, that everything was settled down, and that is when I left +and went up to the homicide office and wrote my report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the instructions to write a report on +this? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you got stationed? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Before I had to go upstairs: yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time Captain Jones gave you those instructions +down there, had the basement sort of quieted down? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give instructions to a bunch of you standing in a +group, or were you all spread out, or how did it happen? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think there were two or three of us there, and I asked +about it, and told him, and he said, "The information is good," but he +said, "Put it down in writing so you will be able to refer to it later." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was there at the time? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember who all was there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, now, on the basis of what you told us, what would be +your best estimate of how long it was after you saw this cameraman come +through that you wrote this report? And when I say on the basis of what +you said, I don't mean that I want you to conform to anything you have +said, but taking into account all the discussion we have had now, what +is your best judgment as to how long it was? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About an hour and a half or 2 hours. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you took the names of the two men you found at +the camera---- + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't take the names. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery took those names? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How were those two men dressed? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. One of them had on a long black coat. One of these kind +of, like a raincoat--topcoat combination deal, and the other one, best +I can remember, had on a greenish shirt and khaki trousers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had those two men, as you recall, where had they +been on the camera as it was being pushed through? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean where? How were they positioned there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the man in the black coat? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The man in the black coat was on the left side of the +camera, and the other one was on the right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There was one man in between? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. As far as I can remember, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss that man with those people that you and +Lowery confronted? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean the two men at the camera? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask them where the third man was? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked them where the third man was who had helped them +with the camera, and they told me they didn't know there was any third +man there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask those men where that camera had been before it +came through the double doors? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you subsequently learned where it was before it came +through the double doors? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. I heard it had been up on the third floor, and that +they were bringing it down because it had the telescopic lens, and they +were wanting to get a shot taking Oswald up the ramp to the armored car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn the names of the two men that you talked +with out at that camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I have not since then, no. At the time, I thought one +was named John Alexander, but I don't know what their names are. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Lowery saw you questioning those two men, do you +recall if Lowery at that time remembered that there had been a third +man on the camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, when I called him over there, I told him what I +had, and he said, "Yes, he remembered a third man being with them." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But Lowery came over at your beckoning? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery did not come over spontaneously? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived up in the homicide office to write your +report, who was there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lowery was there, and there was some officers from the +homicide bureau there, and Captain Fritz was in his office, and I think +there was a Secret Service man there with him. I don't know what his +name was. I was told it was a Secret Service man. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know L. D. Montgomery? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean the detective? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he was there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't recall whether he was or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Blackie Harrison there when you arrived? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think he was there in the office. I believe he was in +there, and there was Lieutenant Wallace. I just don't remember who else +was there. I know the place was full. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was there? Let me ask you--I want to ask you here +to speculate a little bit but at the same time to give me an honest +opinion on this. + +You have had a chance to talk with many police officers, I presume, +about all the events that took place, and you know of all the rumors +that there have been about the man walking down the Main Street ramp +and so forth and so on. + +Do you still feel--can you tell me whether or not you still have a +belief that Jack Ruby might have been the man who pushed that camera +in, in your own mind? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in my own mind, I can tell you this: I did see the +third man with the camera, and it struck me so strange that only two +men--there were three men, but still only two were trying to push the +camera, and that is the reason I went out and contacted the two men. + +Let me tell you, I did learn from Lieutenant Wallace--that is one of +the investigators on the thing for the city--one of you might have +talked with him--that you contacted the crews on this camera--and +he did say that a man that was with these cameras over here that at +about--see, there is a slight decline in this area right here where +Lowery was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a decline where Lowery was standing? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the time that that camera was being pushed, a man +came from this crew over here and helped them push it on down. If there +is where I got the three men, but I do remember seeing three men on +that camera. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And, in other words, somebody came over to the two-man +crew? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Off one of these cameras here. Channel 5 already had +one camera down here, but they said--that is where I got the reason +for this--they brought the wide angle lens and they wanted one of the +telescopic lens to get a shot of him walking up the ramp to where the +armored car was. But still I did see three men pushing that camera +through here. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's put this on the record. Now, as I understand the +story that you heard was that a man came from the two TV cameras, from +the channel 5 camera that was already stationed behind a railing? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And came off and assisted two other men who had already +been pushing that camera through the door, and that man reached the +camera at approximately when that camera was near Lowery? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is what I was told, what I heard. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if that were true, do you think as you look at--out +in the area toward where Lowery and that camera would have been at that +point, that you would have seen a man walk over there to that camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. If I had been looking there at that time, I could have; +yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what I am getting at is, the area that was +in front of those two stationery TV cameras was clear, wasn't it? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because the cameras and lights were right here. And +they had lights up here shining in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, the camera came this route here through these +swinging doors. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it come through the swinging doors? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I saw it coming through the swinging doors because +these doors came open and they come through, and I was standing right +here. I wasn't right exactly at the corner door, but I was in the +doorway at the time. + +I held one of the doors open when they came through, and the camera +came right on down here and was parked in this area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on the chart that it was pushed through +the swinging doors where Lowery was stationed and over to the point +that you have marked it as the final resting place in the garage +entrance? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is where I saw it; yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You have also been told that this same channel 5 had some +other new camera behind the railing? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in front of that railing, was that area in front of +the railing clear of people at the time that that camera came through? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it was exactly clear or not. +I know that right after the camera came through, that these men down +here started hollering to everyone to clear back. Evidently some were +standing in front of the cameras down there and that is why they had to +clear them out. + +So far as I remember, most of the people were standing here, and in +front of the door, and on the south side of the hallway into the ramp, +and on the north side of the hallway, and into the ramp there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this guy you say had on a dark suit? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if he had on a hat? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do not, because the man I saw was bent over pushing +like that [indicating]. All three is what struck me strange that all +three of them, not one was putting all his weight, but all three were +bent over pushing like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you ran for those TV cameras after the +shooting, did you know that Jack Ruby had been the person who shot +Oswald? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I knew that. I helped carry the man through the jail +office doors to the jail office, and while I was there standing guard +on the doors, someone said who is he, and a guy said it is Jack Ruby. +And I was standing in the door when a doctor came in right after we +got Ruby in there and they brought Oswald, and immediately thereafter, +someone was banging on the door trying to get through, and I tried to +push him out, and he said he was a doctor, and that he had been called. +And I run my hand down his side and he had the stethoscope in his right +hand coat pocket, and I let him through. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you ran to the TV cameras, you knew that +Ruby was the man? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I knew that Ruby was the man. They said he was Jack +Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you had seen the third man after it reached, or as +it reached Lowery, do you think you would have seen that man move from +the TV cameras to the channel 5 camera that was stationed behind the +railing? Do you think you would have seen him move from there to the +position of the camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let me put it this way: I didn't just watch this +camera all the way through, because it done past this point, and the +next time I saw it, I remember seeing it when I was looking through the +square glass in the door when I was holding it to, and I saw the two +men push it up here. + +So, I don't know whether I was looking at the camera at the time I was +down here, but I didn't see anyone go around to the camera. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that the TV camera came through the door, the +double doors, you were looking through another glass? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; now at the time it came through the door, this door +was being opened from the inside. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This single door that entered into the jail office opened +inward toward the jail office, and it didn't obstruct your view? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; they came through the swinging door. I was standing +in the doorway and I held this door open. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You held open the swinging doors for them? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; when they came through. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You pulled it back toward yourself? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They were already going past, and I grabbed ahold. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, the swinging doors were between you, your face and +them? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I was standing at the edge of this swinging door +holding it back for them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, you were behind the swinging doors when you were +holding the end of the swinging door, and you were off to the side? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing on part of that door which was +between you and them? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would you say you were from those men at that +point? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 3 feet. Maybe 2, or I could have reached out and +put my hand on one of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see the faces of those men? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The one on the left, the one that had on a black coat, +when he came through, he looked up like that and he was pushing on +through. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you ultimately met over there, you confronted those +men afterward and saw the man in the black coat, was it the same man +that turned up and looked at you? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind about that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I remember his nose real good. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after those men passed you, did you let the doors +swing back, or did you walk back with it, or what did you do? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just turned loose of it. There was another officer +that closed right in behind them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There were other officers that closed in behind the TV +cameramen? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did those officers go? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just stood there. There were some standing in front +of the door at the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't follow them through the door? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. They were already stationed there, and then when +they started pushing through, the doors came open, and the officers +just moved aside. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As that door swung shut, do you recall whether you then +looked back up the hallway from which that camera had come to see if +other people were coming down, or whether you might have looked in +toward the jail office, or whether you continued to watch them go on? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any activity back here in that hallway +immediately after you let go of that swinging door? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, just a little, maybe a minute or two. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Later? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But not immediately thereafter? Do you have any +recollection of seeing anything back there immediately thereafter? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, right after, right after this, the doors came to +here, a man stepped away from the wall over there, the one I told you +previously where one came into the hallway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. A newspaperman? A newspaper person? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Stepped away from this area where you have the "N" marked? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he walk to? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He walked out toward the swinging doors and motioned for +somebody to come out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And your attention was attracted to him? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you actually see that man move away? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Who moved away from right here and stepped about +half way from where he was standing up to the swinging doors. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Have you watched the movies of all this? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just seen it one time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Are you able to state whether what you are +telling us now is from your own knowledge, or is it confused with +anything you may have seen in the movies? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember when he stepped out, I made him get +back, and I told him to get back up against the wall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you were looking in his direction +when he did this, or whether your attention was attracted to him and +then you had to look at him? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I was looking in the hallway in this area here +when he stepped out, and he stepped, there was only about two steps. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You say in this area here. You mean you were looking in +the direction of Lowery? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes, in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. She can't write that. I am going to have to explain for +the record. + +Were you looking in the direction of Lowery, or in the direction of the +railing? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the direction of the TV camera which was being +pushed out at this time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That man walked out, and you got out to motion somebody +in, and you pushed him back? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I told him to get back up against the wall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point do you believe that if somebody had walked +out from the channel 5 camera that was already in place behind the +railing, are you able to state whether or not you would have seen him +get in position and help push that other camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, that is kind of hard to say, because when I +looked out here and he stepped out there, and I told him to get back, +I don't know whether I would notice anybody at that camera, because +my attention at this time was at the man that stepped away from the +hallway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. However, whatever struck your attention to the general +placement of the people in front of those TV cameras, do you recall +whether there were people in front of the TV cameras at any time before +you saw this other TV camera come out of the hallway? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Whether they were exactly in front of the TV cameras, I +don't know, but I know there was lots of people along this north wall +and in the driveway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not indicating anything that is directly in front +of the TV camera? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, shortly after this camera came through, someone +hollered, "Here they come," or else I think I forget, or "They are +on their way down"--we have lights on the basement showing where the +elevator is coming down, and someone hollered to clear the way for the +cameras--to get out from in front of the cameras--but as far as me +telling how many people were in front of the cameras, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever talked to Lowery about whether he saw some +man come from the channel 5 stationary camera and help push the moving +camera into that space? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, Lowery and I were talking when Lieutenant Wallace +told us--he said, if I remember right, Wallace, he says, "I believe I +think I found out where you got the third man." And we asked him where, +and he said he found out from the crew that a man came from the other +channel 5 camera that was already in the basement and helped them down +this short incline, because the camera was rocking. + +And I said, "I don't remember anybody, but I do remember seeing three +men on the camera." And, Lowery said the same thing, that he did +remember seeing the three men. But I don't remember anybody coming from +here to the camera. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go ahead now, sir. When you were up there filling +out your report in the homicide office--when you talked with these men +that you finally detained after the shooting, the two men that you +detained, did you describe to them the third man that was with them? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you asked them where is the third man and he said +there wasn't, what did they say? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just told me that there wasn't any, that if there +was a third man there, they didn't know about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else standing with you at the time they said +that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe Officer Lowery was there at that time. But +the first thing, I went right out there and got a hold of both of them +and asked them, "Where is the other man that came out with them." And +he said, "There wasn't any other man." And I said, "I know there were +three men with you when you came out." And he said, "If there was one +between us, they don't know nothing about it." And I don't remember +whether Officer Lowery was there, but I don't think he was there, but +we did question them again, and I still think there was a third man. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Swain, did he make that denial to Swain? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't really know, because that is when I left and had +to go up to the first floor. Lowery started getting their names and +they talked to Lieutenant Swain and told them what it was, and he said, +"Go ahead and get their names and ask where they are going to be." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it that came up to you and told you that he had +found out, had an explanation for the third man. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lieutenant Wallace. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Sunday, November 24? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine that was maybe a week or two, because through +their investigation they tried to contact everybody that was down +there. It was quite some time. The exact amount of days, I don't know, +but it was quite some time after that he explained it to us. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up to the homicide office, did Lowery fill +out a report? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Harrison fill out a report while you were out there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think he did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you all talk about this when you were up there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I believe we did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were all--as a matter of fact, this was +probably a matter of general interest to everybody up there, don't you +imagine? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You think anybody could have been in that office without +knowing what you guys had seen? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so, because we don't tell everybody up there +in the office. Of course, at the time we wrote out a report, I think +there was me, Lowery, and I believe Harrison did come back and start +writing out his, and I think Lieutenant Wallace, and he said put down +what you saw and what you know only, and that is the way I wrote out my +report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the guys you were talking with about it, so +anybody other than you and Lowery who might have been there could have +heard it and might have told it to somebody else? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Possibly; yes. But we didn't talk a whole lot while we +were writing the report. We just sat down and wrote it out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about after you wrote the report? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. We went back to our office and shot the bull and +gabbed about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And speculated about it? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did other people come in there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about other members of the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Goolsby there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; he was out there quite a bit. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anybody else who was in that office after +you had written out your report and were talking about this? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. There was a reporter up there. You mean +so far as officers is concerned, or just anybody? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Give me just the officers first. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe June McLine, and then I believe that covered +all the officers and myself and Harrison and Miller, and Goolsby, and +McLine, and then there were other officers, I know, but I don't know +who all they were. I don't remember. And they had that one little +reporter from up north somewhere. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Yankee reporters? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Like Cleveland, Ohio, maybe? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know where he was from, but I didn't like him +very much. Then there was a French reporter. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. A French reporter was up there? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen that French reporter when you were down in +the basement? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so. I'm not going to swear, because there were +so darn many of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen that French reporter there before this? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because he and some other reporters from up North, +they kind of made our office their office, you might say. That was +their base of operation. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that French reporter tell you? Did he see that TV +camera come through? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't talk to him about it or ask him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the people who were up there in the office +indicate they had also seen the TV camera come through? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think Goolsby said he saw the camera come through but +he didn't remember anything about who was pushing it or anything. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you view the TV film with these men coming through? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. From your recollection of that TV film, could you see the +third man on the camera pushing it through? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; the only two I could see was just the two that I +gave a description. It was one on the right that had, I think, the +greenish-type shirt, and the one on the left that had the black coat. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to remember that TV film. Did that TV film which you +saw, did that show the camera as it came through the door? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did it show the man looking up at you? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it did or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the camera shot taken from such a position that if +there had been a third man behind the camera, it would have showed up +on the TV picture? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, the camera shot on this one that was coming up on +the door was a straight-on shot, and whether they would show up, I +didn't see any other man. If he had been there, he would be directly +behind the stand. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how far that TV picture of the men coming +out of the swinging doors follows the camera as it proceeds through the +swinging doors? Out past Lowery? Does it show Lowery up on the TV? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it does or not, because at the +time I saw the film, I was just looking at the camera to see whether +I could see anybody behind it or not. The way the picture was on the +film, it shows the camera coming out, and it was passing out of range +of the TV camera that was taking the pictures at the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how soon after Oswald was shot did you view those TV +films? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after Lieutenant Wallace reported to you +that he could solve the problem of the third man? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe it was after. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the film after you talked to Wallace? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in looking at those TV films whether you +show up in the TV film? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On one of the films I do, but whether it was on the TV +or one of the camera pictures, I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the films that you watched, do you recall whether +those films show you looking at the men? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Like I say, I don't even remember seeing them. You know, +one showed me, but I think I was looking almost straight out at an +angle from the door where I was standing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In any other films which you have seen, is there depicted +the episode where the newsmen moved out from the position that you have +marked with an "N" on the north wall of the entranceway to between the +jail office and the ramp? Does it show that man coming out and your +motioning him back as you have described? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you these questions because I am trying to get +you to refresh your recollection even more. + +Now, Detective Cutchshaw, we all know that shortly after Ruby shot +Oswald, a certain amount of heat was focused on Blackie Harrison. You +are aware of that, aren't you? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want you to tell me honestly--I think you have +tried to be strictly forthright to me in describing this camera. + +Do you think that your concern about Harrison in any way has affected +what you remembered about this event? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. None whatsoever. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't Harrison indicate shortly after this event that he +was worried about this, because Ruby had come right past him? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't he talk about that by the time you got back to the +juvenile bureau? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether he talked about it; he just +said that he remembered seeing this man come out and this gun come up, +and he described to me, but as far as him saying he was worried about +it, I don't remember that. As far as any reflection on himself---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I was not trying to talk particularly about whether +Blackie saw Jack there a few minutes ago. Honestly, I don't care to +know if that is true, but to me, that is no reflection on him. But it +is very important for us to find out what happened, because if we don't +know what happened, we have to speculate and wonder whether there was +somebody else involved here. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let me tell you: I came down here. A lot of people +say I need a lawyer, but I don't want one because I came down to tell +you the truth and just the way I saw it. I told you what I saw. Of +course, some of my time elements are a little bit this way, but I said +what I saw, and the only thing I did tell you---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me, and this is what is important, what +you feel at this point, what your motivation, unconscious or conscious, +is in this, and I don't expect you to tell me that Blackie thought that +he saw the man or anybody else, but I want to know if you feel that +what you have told me today in such a determined and what appeared to +me forthright fashion, is based, is affected in any way because of the +concern of anybody in the juvenile bureau, about Harrison and Lowery +and Miller and anybody else in the bureau who was down there, and in +particular to have seen Ruby if he came in? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe that if Blackie Harrison had seen Ruby come +in, he would have put him out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, to what extent, I want to know, do you think that +this concern of your affects your story, honestly? + +I could tell this story and honestly believe everything I am telling, +but yet we all know unconsciously our emotions are affected. + +How much are you being affected by that concern of Harrison? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. None of my story or anything I have told you has +been affected in any way for any concern for any one person in the +department. + +I came down here to tell you this, and everything is just the way I saw +it. And as far as concern for any one individual, I don't have any. + +Now, Blackie is a friend of mine, and I have known him for a long time. +I have no concern for him, because I don't think he did anything wrong. +And I think if he had seen the man, he would have put him out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out, then he did +the wrong thing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you think he would have been disciplined for that, +too, don't you? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he would be disciplined for that, too, and he +would be, if he had seen the man and hadn't put him out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that if Blackie knew that he wouldn't be +disciplined for this, and if somebody were to tell him now that he +wouldn't be disciplined and it wouldn't be made known to anybody in the +public or even anybody in the police department, and it actually turned +out Blackie did see this guy, do you think Blackie would tell us about +that? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he would. Blackie is an honest man. In fact, +the way it is right now, if he had saw the man, I believe he would tell +you he had. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You heard the story that Blackie had taken some sort of +medicine before he took that lie detector test? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I haven't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven't heard that story? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are concerned, I take it, about the department, +though you said you are not concerned about any particular man in the +department, but you are concerned about the department? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. As far as doing anything wrong? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you act---- + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The way you are talking is that I am concerned that +I think we have done something wrong. I don't think there is one +wrongdoing, as far as the officers are concerned and what happened down +there. I didn't think like that. + +Departmental wise or individualwise, there are things pro and con of +what should have happened and what shouldn't have happened. + +One way of looking, there shouldn't have been any news media, and maybe +they shouldn't have been spread out that way, but we would have caught +the dickens that way. + +And, as I heard, Chief Curry had the okay from a little higher up to go +ahead and have the news media, and it didn't turn out too good. + +But as far as wrongdoings, there is not one wrong thing that happened +as far as our department is concerned. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lowery? Are you much of a friend with Lowery? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We ride to work together and run around a bit together. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How friendly are you with Harrison? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We are good friends, but as far as running around, he +lives way over in Pleasant Grove, and I live in Grand Prairie. It is +way across town, so we don't get around together. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery had seen Ruby. Did Lowery know Ruby? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Did he recognize Ruby before? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He had seen Ruby on a number of occasions, actually, +didn't he before? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean before this happened? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I tell you the truth, I really don't know. I think he +said he knew him, or seen him around, but as far as actual standing +there, I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain King in the basement at any time prior +to the shooting? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, now, that I don't remember whether I saw him down +there prior to the shooting or whether it was after. There was a whole +bunch of officers down there, and, man, I do remember a few immediately +right there, and someone that came out the door, because I was right +there and watched them as they came out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, if you and Captain King had been standing +together and you both saw Ruby and you both knew Ruby, what would you +do? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, now, you mean if we saw him come into the +basement, or if we saw him standing there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Saw him standing down there and you were both standing +there together? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, that is something that is pretty hard to say, +honestly, because the basement is supposed to be secured when we went +down there. + +In other words, everybody that wasn't supposed to be there, was +supposed to be out, and they had officers checking them coming in, and +me not knowing Ruby, I probably wouldn't have known him if I had been +shown him on the street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If you knew Ruby and you both were standing there, if you +knew him and you and Captain King were standing there, and you knew +Captain King was looking at him too---- + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have tried to find out what he was doing, +knowing he wasn't a newsman or couldn't have a news pass. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have deferred to Captain King or any other +superior officer? Would you let him take the initiative on it? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have asked him myself if I had seen him, because +that is what we were down there for. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at, and the only reason I use +Captain King--I could have used Chief Batchelor or anybody like that, +but my point is, that if a junior officer like you and a senior officer +were standing together, is there any feeling that you would defer to +the senior officer to take the initiative in throwing some guy out? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. If he were in charge of me or in charge of security and +if I saw Jack Ruby there and he didn't have a pass on and I knew him +and knew that he was not a news representative, then if I confronted +him and he said, "Chief Batchelor said it was okay," then I would have +asked the chief if it was all right. + +Otherwise, I wouldn't say the chief had anything to do with it and I +would put him out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, if you had seen him first, you would have gone +directly to him and then turned to your superior officer and said what +shall I do about this guy? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have went directly to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have gone directly to him. Do you think that is +true of any other officer or do you think some of them would have acted +different? + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is hard to say, not knowing every officer's traits. +Some operate one way and some operate another. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to examine Cutchshaw Exhibits Nos. 5042, +5043, 5044, 5045, and 5046, and if there are no further additions or +corrections to make to those in addition to all this we have been +talking about, then I would like you to sign each one of these and date +them. + +Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Where do you want me to sign? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it in a conspicuous place where I have placed the +mark on the paper. Sign your name and date it. Regular signature or +full name. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF NAPOLEON J. DANIELS + +The testimony of Napoleon J. Daniels was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April +16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert, Mr. Daniels. I'm a member of the +advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission +under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, +and joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure +adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and +the joint resolution, and I have been authorized to take the sworn +deposition from you, Mr. Daniels. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate, and to report on the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular as to you, Mr. Daniels, the nature of the inquiry today +is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any +other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and, of +course, about the entry of Jack Ruby into the basement of the police +department. + +Now, Mr. Daniels, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a +written request sent to you by mail. + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And signed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin. + +Mr. DANIELS. Correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. General Counsel of the President's Commission. + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I received it Saturday, I believe. + +Mr. HUBERT. Last Saturday? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that this is Thursday. + +Mr. DANIELS. It has been 3 days. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand, stand, and take the oath, +please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this +matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, +so help you God? + +Mr. DANIELS. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. State your full name? + +Mr. DANIELS. Napoleon J. Daniels. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Mr. DANIELS. Thirty-two. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? + +Mr. DANIELS. 2229 Sutter [spelling] S-u-t-t-e-r. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Daniels? + +Mr. DANIELS. Real estate broker. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied? + +Mr. DANIELS. About 3 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you own your own company? + +Mr. DANIELS. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were at one time connected with the police department, +were you not? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; about 7 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. About 7 years? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the police department? + +Mr. DANIELS. I left there in November 1962. + +Mr. HUBERT. What were the circumstances under which you left? + +Mr. DANIELS. Let me see just how I can put this--well, I resigned, of +course, I was asked to resign because of some conflicts I had with a +tenant living in one of my apartments. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you rented out some property to a tenant +and you had some difficulty with the tenant? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And on account of that difficulty they asked you to resign +from the police department? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did resign? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And have you continued in the business under the name N. J. +Daniels Real Estate Co.? + +Mr. DANIELS. That's right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; just a company. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I know you have already made a statement to the FBI, +as a matter of fact, I think you have made two statements, one to the +State police--I would now just like for you to tell us what you know of +entry of Jack Ruby into the basement? + +Mr. DANIELS. Well, actually, I don't feel like I really know anything, +but I saw a guy go in the basement, but I don't think it was Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's start off with that morning, of course, you knew that +the President had been killed? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And as I understand, you were riding in your own car over +towards the place where he was killed? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes, I was going out Main Street. I was going--let's see, +that was Sunday morning and I was going down Main Street to look at the +spot where the President had been assassinated and as I drove by the +city hall, I noticed a bunch of people standing around and noticed this +officer standing in the entrance to the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. On Main Street? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; on Main Street, and so I made the block and turned +around and came back and parked. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park? + +Mr. DANIELS. Pardon? + +Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park? + +Mr. DANIELS. On Main there, right down from the city hall there, I +guess about a half a block down. + +Mr. HUBERT. On the other side of the street? + +Mr. DANIELS. On the same side of the city hall, you see, I went around +and came back. + +Mr. HUBERT. You went around what street? + +Mr. DANIELS. Now, that first street down, I guess that's--I was going +down Main and turned, I believe the first block. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would that have been Pearl? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; you see, I was going west on Main and the first street +I could turn--I think the first street is a one way going left, but I +turned and came back the other way, so it must have been Ervay where I +turned and went up to Pacific and then come back up to Harwood and then +came down Harwood to Main and made a left on Main and parked up in a +vacant space on the other side of the city hall--on the east side of +the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. I thought you had parked at a parking lot near the Western +Union office? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; it wasn't a parking lot. I was thinking I parked on +the street. + +Mr. HUBERT. You parked on the street? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was it near the Western Union office? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; right down from the city hall. In other words, it was +in between there and the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you were parked on Main Street? + +Mr. DANIELS. On the south side of Main. + +Mr. HUBERT. Not in a parking lot? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; I wasn't at a parking lot, no, I think I parked on the +street, I'm sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you parked on the same side of the street as the city +hall and as the police department is and as the Western Union office is? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you parked at a spot between the Western Union office +and the Main Street entrance of the city hall? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or the police department? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with that building, because you worked +there for a long time? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you were about half way between the Western +Union and the Main ramp, or just what distance between those two? + +Mr. DANIELS. Oh, let me see, let me get it in my mind--I would say +I was a little nearer the Western Union Building than I was to the +entrance of the basement of the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with that alley that goes from Main Street +back in towards Commerce and makes an "L" and comes out on Pearl Street? + +Mr. DANIELS. I think I was just on the east side of that. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "east," it doesn't mean anything to me. + +Mr. DANIELS. Near Pearl. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were on the Western Union side of the +alley? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your car was facing towards the Western Union? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time was it when you got there? + +Mr. DANIELS. Near 11 o'clock--I wasn't paying much attention to the +time, it must have been near 11 o'clock or a little after. + +Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that? + +Mr. DANIELS. Well, I'm trying to fix it at about the time Oswald was +shot. Now, I was there about 20 or 25 or 30 minutes before it happened. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you parked your car, did you sit in your car any +length of time at all? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; I got out and walked back up there. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean you immediately got out and walked back up to the +Main door--the Main door entrance? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to show you a drawing, which among other +things includes the entrance to the basement, and I am marking it for +the purpose of identification as follows: + +"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5324, Deposition of N. J. +Daniels," and I am marking it with my name. + +I would like you to study this, and I point out to you that this is +Main Street, here is the Western Union office, and here is Pearl. + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Over in that direction would be Harwood, Commerce is over +here. + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the Main Street entrance? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. The sidewalk. + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I think you are familiar with the fact that there is +a stone fence about 2 feet high that runs from the entrance of Main +Street toward the street some distance. + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, you were parked on Main Street +itself? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Facing towards the Western Union Building? + +Mr. DANIELS. This side of the street. + +Mr. HUBERT. On the same side of the street as the Western Union +Building? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that you reached there at approximately 11 o'clock? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; at approximately 11 o'clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. You immediately got out of your car and you walked toward +the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you got down there, did you go past the ramp, or did +you stay on the Western Union side of the ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. I think when I first got there, I walked over in front of +the little entrance down in there. + +Mr. HUBERT. So you could look right down the ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. So I could look in there, because I was on the sidewalk +when I did that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer Vaughn? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had known him from the time you were on the police +force? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he recognize you? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you went to the middle of the ramp, but still on the +sidewalk and looked down the sidewalk? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay there very long? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; I spoke to him and he told me that he was blocking +anybody's entrance, in other words, that's what he meant, that he was +blocking anybody's entrance into the basement. That's what he was there +for. + +Mr. HUBERT. He was posted at that spot--where was he standing? + +Mr. DANIELS. He was standing right in the middle of the entrance there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark on Exhibit 5324 a position which I +am going to call "1" and I am putting a circle on it and I'm going to +draw a line, and then I'm going to put "First position of Daniels," is +that about correct? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes, that's about correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark a position called "2" and I'm going +to draw a line, and I'm going to mark it "position of Vaughn when +Daniels was in position number "1", and ask you if that is correct? + +Mr. DANIELS. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And as you said, he recognized you and you recognized him? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you looked down? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do? + +Mr. DANIELS. I stepped back over to the bannister and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean back towards the Western Union? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go on the other side of the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Towards Harwood? + +Mr. DANIELS. No--at no time--I never did. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say you went towards the bannister, were you on +the inside of the bannister, that is to say, between the bannister and +the ramp, or on the Western Union side of it? + +Mr. DANIELS. You mean after I got back to it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I got--I went back to it and stood on the Western +Union side and just propped my foot up on the end of it. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were then facing toward Harwood Street? + +Mr. DANIELS. Correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. More or less? + +Mr. DANIELS. Correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you move out of that position at all? + +Mr. DANIELS. Well, yes; during the time I was there I moved several +times, but it was all right around in that area there. + +Mr. HUBERT. But did you ever go to the Harwood Street side of the Main +Street ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to draw it lightly first so we can get it +straight--if I draw an area like so--would it be fair to say that you +were at all times that you are going to testify to later, within that +area, except when you left? + +Mr. DANIELS. Now, what is this here--is this the bannister here? + +Mr. HUBERT. No; this is the measuring line, this doesn't actually show +the bannister. + +Mr. DANIELS. The bannister come right around in here--I was always +right in this area right in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, we will draw a circle like that. + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am drawing a larger circle in which I am putting the +number "3", drawing a line out and saying "Area in which Daniels was +after he left position '1' and until shooting." Right? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand, of course, that you might have moved +around in that area, but substantially that's what it was? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it was on the Western Union side of the little concrete +or marble ramp that comes out? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you are telling me that you never did go on the Harwood +Street side thereafter? + +Mr. DANIELS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in the area you were in--this area +that we have marked No. 3? + +Mr. DANIELS. Well, now, at different times there was as high as four or +five--some of them would come by and stop and then go on. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. DANIELS. Let me see--about that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Even though there were some people on the other side of the +ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; there was three or four on the other side. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long before Oswald was shot, and I think you did hear +the shot? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long before Oswald was shot did you get to position No. +1? + +Mr. DANIELS. I would say 20 or 25 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then, how long were you in position No. 3 before he was +shot, in the area of No. 3? + +Mr. DANIELS. Well, let me see--almost the same, because I had just came +over here and looked and immediately walked back over here--I would say +no time. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you came from your car to position 1 and +took a quick look and went to the area of No. 3? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until the shot was fired, and you +think it was about 20 minutes later? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a car coming up the ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Lt. Rio Pierce? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him driving the car? + +Mr. DANIELS. I don't remember whether he was driving or not, there were +four officers in there and he was the only one I recognized right off. + +Mr. HUBERT. There were four in there you say? + +Mr. DANIELS. Two in the front and two in the back. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who were the others? + +Mr. DANIELS. I didn't really get a good look at them but I knew him, +but I got a better look at him than I did the rest of them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he see you--did he show any signs of recognition to you? + +Mr. DANIELS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting did that occur? + +Mr. DANIELS. Let's see, I would say 3 or 4 minutes. Now, I have been +thoroughly confused on this because down at the police department they +tell me one thing and it gets my mind all confused. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, what we want is not what somebody else told you, but +what you, yourself can best remember today. + +Mr. DANIELS. Here's what struck me--when I saw the car come out, I +was thinking--I guess they are fixing to bring Oswald out now, maybe, +because they are coming out to set up a guard, and they pulled on out +and I remember watching the car until they got to Harwood and Main, and +then I stopped looking at it and I didn't pay any attention to where +it went or anything, and then I kind of looked back down in there from +where I was standing near the ramp there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the car came out, what did Vaughn do? + +Mr. DANIELS. Vaughn walked out to the street to hold up traffic, +because they were coming out the wrong way. They don't normally come +out that way and he was going out to hold up traffic and let them get +through. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he get beyond the sidewalk so that he was actually out +in the street? + +Mr. DANIELS. I think he walked out in the street. + +Mr. HUBERT. How far into the street? + +Mr. DANIELS. That would be hard to say but I wasn't paying that much +attention, but he walked out into the street--he didn't get beyond the +center of the street, but he walked out in there. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he left position No. 2 and went to a +position we will call No. 4 by a circle, and I will just write in there +"approximate position of Vaughn when Rio Pierce's car drove out," and +when I say "approximate," I am understanding you to say that you are +not sure how far into the street he went, you know he did not go +beyond the center stripe, but you think he went---- + +Mr. DANIELS. Almost---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Out over the sidewalk and into the street? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; because there was some cars parked and he had to get +beyond them, you see. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were watching the car and Vaughn, I think +you said you watched the car until it went around the corner. Did you +see anybody go down the ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. No, no; I didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible for somebody to have gone to +your left and down the ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. You mean have gotten between me and there? + +Mr. HUBERT. And the building--yes. + +Mr. DANIELS. Not without me seeing them--I don't hardly think so. + +Mr. HUBERT. In any case, they would have to climb over the little +marble---- + +Mr. DANIELS. Well, I was not exactly against it at that time. When the +car came out, I think I stepped back a little bit, you know, and moved +out of the way. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said that at one point you were standing on the +Western Union side of that concrete--what do you call it? + +Mr. DANIELS. I call it a ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Concrete ramp--sticking out in the sidewalk? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you had your foot on it? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; because I was in and out of that position, but when +the car came out, I left that and I stepped back out here a little +piece from the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you left the area 3 and went more towards +the street? + +Mr. DANIELS. I went towards the street and kind of back down the +sidewalk a little piece. + +Mr. HUBERT. You went more towards the Main Street curb and back in the +direction of the Western Union? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you didn't see anybody go to your left? + +Mr. DANIELS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see anybody go down the ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then, after Vaughn had done this and the car had gone +around, what did Vaughn do? + +Mr. DANIELS. He came back and took his position up again. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that it is fair to say then that the position we have +marked on the map as position 2 was also the position of Vaughn after +the Rio Pierce automobile had gone through? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened after that? + +Mr. DANIELS. Let's see, there is something else that I have been +thoroughly confused on--I have never been able to picture in my mind +just how it happened--the guy that I saw go into the basement--I'm not +sure it was before or after the car came out. I'm not sure--I have run +that in my mind a thousand times, but I just can't place one before the +other. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you saw a man go down in the basement? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And at the time you saw him go down in the basement, where +was Vaughn? + +Mr. DANIELS. In position 2. + +Mr. HUBERT. In position 2, that is to say, squarely in the middle of +the ramp? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Vaughn look at him? + +Mr. DANIELS. I think he did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Vaughn try to stop him? + +Mr. DANIELS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. He went right on through? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long that was before the shot was fired? + +Mr. DANIELS. 3 or 4 minutes, I guess. + +Mr. HUBERT. But what you say is confusing you is as to whether or not +that was after the Rio Pierce car came out? + +Mr. DANIELS. I'm not sure--I can't place one before the other--if I had +to guess at it, I would say it was before. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think now that you saw the man go down +past Vaughn before the Rio Pierce car came? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct? + +Mr. DANIELS. That's what I'm thinking. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's your best recollection today? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car did drive out and Vaughn left +his position at No. 2, didn't you as a matter of fact undertake to +watch that position which was left unguarded? + +Mr. DANIELS. I did notice it to see if anybody went down in it so I +could tell him about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. And nobody did? + +Mr. DANIELS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that does not refresh your memory as to whether or not +the man you saw go down, went down before or after the Pierce car came +out? + +Mr. DANIELS. Let me see--I still think it was before. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that now? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; I can't be positive--I don't know it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that you thought at one time he was the man +you had seen somehow when you were on the police force? + +Mr. DANIELS. Well, yes; and here's what--when the guy walked down in +there and Vaughn seemed to look at him, the impression I got was that +Vaughn knew him and maybe he had let him out and still, I wondered too +why he let him go down in there, because he wasn't letting anybody +else go down in there. He looked like one of the news reporters or +something, at least that's what I took him to be after Vaughn let him +go on down. I had seen him before and I thought, well, maybe he's one +of the news reporters down there at the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to do this, Mr. Daniels, I have here three +documents. The first one purports to be a copy of an interview with the +State police, I think, or the city police, in the course of which you +executed an affidavit on November 29, 1963. + +I'm going to mark that for purpose of identification as follows: + +"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5325, deposition of N. J. +Daniels," and I am signing my name below it. There are two pages. I +am marking the second page with my initials in the lower right-hand +corner. Then there's another document which purports to be a report of +an interview with the FBI Agents Neil Quigley and John Dallman, which +interview occurred on December 4, 1964. That document has four pages. I +am marking in the right hand margin on the first page, the following: + +"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5326, Deposition of N. J. +Daniels." I am writing my name below that and marking the second and +third and fourth pages of that with my initials in the lower right-hand +corner, and finally, there is another document which is an FBI report +of an interview with Bramblett [spelling] B-r-a-m-b-l-e-t-t and +Dallman, taken of you on December 18, 1963, and I am marking that: + +"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, this is Exhibit 5327, Deposition of N. +J. Daniels." + +I am marking my name on it and since the document consists of three +pages, I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the +second and third pages. + +Now, Mr. Daniels, I would like you to read these three documents with +this in mind, that after you have had a chance to read them calmly and +quietly, take all the time you want, I would like you to look at them +and be able to comment upon them. + +For instance, I am going to ask you if they are correct, or what is +wrong about them, and I want to try to reconcile them, and see if we +can get at what are really the facts as you recollect the facts today. +We are not interested in any positions of mind or concepts that you +don't really have, but that other people might have driven you to, +with good motive or not, what we want now is forgetting about whatever +anybody else told you, what your recollection is right now--today, +without reference to anything else, if you can possibly do it. + +Keep that in mind--forget about suggestions made to you in all good +faith by other people, and just cut that out of your mind and let's +just do that--that scene as you saw it, and these words today. + +Mr. DANIELS. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to give you some time to look at it. + +Mr. DANIELS. [Examining instruments referred to.] + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Daniels, you have had an opportunity to read the +exhibits that I have marked Exhibits Nos. 5325, 5326, and 5327. Now, +have you any comment to make with respect to the three exhibits and the +statements made by you in them? + +Mr. DANIELS. They said three people was in the car--it seems like I saw +four--all of them had on these white supervisor caps, leather top hats +that the supervisors wear down there and it just seemed like I saw four. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, what you are saying in effect now is that the +people who reported in these exhibits that you said you saw three were +wrong, or that you were wrong in telling them three, because your +present recollection is that there were four? + +Mr. DANIELS. I think it was four. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other corrections that you wish to make? + +Mr. DANIELS. Let's see. I don't remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. Any others? + +Mr. DANIELS. I don't remember--corrections. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is my duty to call your attention to Exhibit 5325, +which is the affidavit that you made on November 29. + +Mr. DANIELS. November 29? What I said? + +Mr. HUBERT. And in Exhibit 5327, which is the report of an interview by +the agents of the FBI on December 18, you seem to quite clearly state +that the man you saw walk down the ramp past Vaughn, did so after the +car had passed? + +Mr. DANIELS. Well, I said I think I have changed my mind now--I believe +it was after the car had gone out when I saw him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me get it straight--what is your present impression now? + +Mr. DANIELS. That's it--the way I fix it in my mind--the way I arrive +at that conclusion is that when the shot rang out, my first thought was +the guy that just walked down in there did that, so timing that way it +would have to be after that car came out, because that car had time to +go quite a ways, I think. + +Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying then is that, the statements that are +contained in Exhibits 5325 and 5327 you now believe to be correct? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And the statement you made in your deposition earlier today +that you could not be sure whether that man went in before or after was +incorrect? I think you even went further, if my memory serves me right, +and said that your best recollection was that the man had gone down +past Vaughn before the car came out, isn't that what you said earlier +in your deposition? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes; until I refreshed myself on it and when I read that I +got a better picture in my mind. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that now your testimony is that you think that the man +you saw go by--past Vaughn, did so after the car had gone out, that is +to say, after Vaughn had left his position at (2), gone out into the +street to the approximate position of (4) and come back again to his +position at (2)? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then it was at that time or shortly thereafter that the +man went straight by Vaughn? + +Mr. DANIELS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. But that is your present best recollection? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you believe that the thing that has made you change +your mind is that when you read these statements--it refreshes your +memory? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you quite sure it refreshes your memory or, are you +worried about contradicting yourself? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; I'm not worried about contradicting myself, I'm just +trying to be sure and tell the truth. + +Mr. HUBERT. Right--I want to assure you that it doesn't matter to us +whether you contradict yourself or not. + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. There is no suggestion made to you here that if you made a +mistake before that any kind of penalty or punishment or prosecution +will follow, because that isn't so, unless you made a wilful +misstatement, but I'm not going into that now. What I want to know +now is what really happened. Now, Mr. Daniels, that's why I asked you +before to try to put everything out of your mind. + +Mr. DANIELS. That's the trouble with this--it has been out of my mind +and I am trying to get it back in there. + +Mr. HUBERT. You feel now, considering all the statements you made +originally are the truthful ones? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other corrections or additions or deletions +that you would like to make as to the exhibits that have been +identified as exhibits as numbers 5325, 5326, and 5327? + +Mr. DANIELS. I can't think of any. + +Mr. HUBERT. You think it can be fairly said that anyone who would +read the three exhibits 5325, 5326, and 5327 and who would read the +transcript of your deposition at a later time and who would have the +advantage of being able to follow your deposition on this chart that +has been marked as Daniel's Exhibit 5324, that such a person reading +all those documents would have all of the truth, so far as you know it? + +Mr. DANIELS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And we would have all that you do know? + +Mr. DANIELS. That's absolutely right--that's right, I believe so. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, is there anything else, have you anything else +to say? + +Mr. DANIELS. No; I can't think of anything else. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. I am glad you came by. + +Mr. DANIELS. All right, thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. HARRISON + +The testimony of William J. Harrison was taken at 3:45 p.m., on March +25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. William J. +Harrison was accompanied by his counsel, Ted P. MacMaster. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I was looking through here to see if I could get you a +copy of our rules. Let me state for the record. Correct me if I get the +names wrong. We have here Officer W. J. Harrison of the Dallas Police +Department and Mr. MacMaster. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Ted P. MacMaster [spelling] M-a-c-M-a-s-t-e-r, assistant +city attorney of the city of Dallas. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I wanted to provide for you, before we even get into the +formal part of it a copy of the rules, and I think this is a complete +copy, Mr. MacMaster, and, if you like, let me hand them to you. + +Mr. MacMASTER. That is fine. Thank you. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me state, talk a little bit about this, and then +maybe, if you feel that you would like to stop and take a look at it a +little longer, I would be happy to do that. I will state for the record +that my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the advisory staff +of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy, and this Commission has been set +up pursuant to an Executive Order 11130 by President Johnson issued +November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress +No. 137. Pursuant to this Executive order and these resolutions, there +have been a set of rules and a procedure prescribed by the Commission, +and I believe, Mr. MacMaster, that what I have just handed you is a +copy, and I believe a complete copy, of the rules, but if you would +like for me to check and make sure that is everything, I will check +with one of my colleagues. Would---- + +Mr. MacMASTER. Yes; I would appreciate that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like me to? + +Mr. MacMASTER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I will have to take it. + +(Recess.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. For the record, I have checked with my colleague, Mr. Leon +Hubert, and he confirms my statement to you that that is a complete +copy of the rules of the Commission. + +Mr. MacMASTER. I would like to state for the record, Officer William +J. Harrison, a member of the police department of the city of Dallas, +Tex., is making a voluntary appearance here today and is here for +the purpose of voluntarily assisting, in every way possible, in this +investigation. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I certainly appreciate that, and let me take some time +here to explain to you what is involved here. This Commission was set +up under this resolution and this Executive order, which I have given +you a copy of, for the purpose of investigating, evaluating, reporting +back to President Johnson upon the facts surrounding the assassination +of the President and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, we have +asked Mr. Harrison to come here today to talk with him in particular +about the facts that are attendant to the killing of Oswald. We don't +want to preclude any information that you may have that falls anywhere +within the scope of the Commission, so if there is anything, why I +would like you on your own to bring it up and we want very much to hear +it. + +Let me go back and explain where we are procedurally. Officer Harrison +is appearing here by virtue of a letter, which is sent by the General +Counsel of the Commission to Chief Curry, and the General Counsel, +under these resolutions, has the right to determine who shall be +deposed and also has the authority to authorize individual members of +his staff to take individual depositions, and I have been authorized, +pursuant to that letter to Mr. Curry, to take Mr. Harrison's +deposition. Now, the witness is entitled to 3 days' written notice +before he testifies before the Commission, and some of the witnesses +have asked for it, others of them haven't. + +Mr. MacMASTER. You don't have any reason for that? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. MacMASTER. He wants to waive that 3-day notice. + +Mr. HARRISON. Just waive it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And, also, they have a right to counsel before the +Commission. Many of the witnesses have come before the Commission, and +Mr. Harrison is here with Mr. MacMaster, who is his attorney. Do you +have any questions you want to ask me before I swear the witness in? + +Mr. MacMASTER. No; not that I know of at this point. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Harrison, do you have any questions that you would +like to ask me? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I would like to know if I understand. You have the +reports that we made to the FBI? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. HARRISON. And also the ones that we made to our chief? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, we do. + +Mr. HARRISON. Do we get to read those? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like to see a copy of them? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I haven't seen them. + +Mr. MacMASTER. You want them to refresh your memory? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me get it out of here. Would you like to +take time and go out? + +Mr. MacMASTER. Do you want to take a little time? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you look it over? You can step out of the room. +Maybe I can find another office for you, too. + +(Recess.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I might ask you again if you have any other questions that +I can answer before I swear you in? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know of anything. This is off of the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear +that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth? + +Mr. HARRISON. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. HARRISON. William J. Harrison. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Harrison? + +Mr. HARRISON. August 28, 1924. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now? + +Mr. HARRISON. At 9223 Donnybrook. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, Dallas. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, I am. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas department? + +Mr. HARRISON. Past 16 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what particular bureau or subdivision are you +attached to at present? + +Mr. HARRISON. I am a patrolman assigned to the juvenile bureau of the +CID. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working in that capacity or were you a member of +the department in that capacity on November 22, 23, and 24? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to ask you some questions generally about +events, things have to do with events before the 24th, and I am not +going to go into as much detail as the events of the 24th, but I do +want to ask you where you were at the time that you heard that the +President was shot. + +Mr. HARRISON. Where I was at the time that I heard that the President +was shot? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. HARRISON. I was on duty at the market hall. I was standing at +the--I guess it would be the west end of the President's table. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Trade Mart? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas Trade Mart? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; market. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there after you heard that the +President was shot? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was approximately an hour. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go? + +Mr. HARRISON. Come back to the city hall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The Police Department Building or the city hall portion of +it? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, to the juvenile bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you go up to the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got back to the juvenile +bureau? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I don't recall. Stayed around the office there +until time to go home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you got back to the +police department? + +Mr. HARRISON. It was around 1:30 or 2. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you go off duty that day? + +Mr. HARRISON. Four. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go out of the building +between the time that you returned and the time that you went off duty? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. I don't think I ever went out of the +building. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working on any particular cases that you recall? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were there prior to 4 +o'clock, did you see anybody on the third floor or elsewhere in the +building who you knew was not a police officer or a member of the press +or somebody who was up on some sort of official business with the +police department, did you recognize anybody that you knew? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby there at anytime prior to 4 o'clock +Friday afternoon? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You do recognize Ruby by sight, do you not? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack personally? + +Mr. HARRISON. I knew him as a businessman as well by sight, and I have +known him for 12 years, I guess, as a businessman. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I used to go into his place. I was a motorcycle +officer, and we would go into these different places just checking, and +he was running the Silver Spur, I think was the name of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What bureau were you assigned to at that time? + +Mr. HARRISON. I was in the traffic bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that motorcycle patrol? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; motorcycle patrol. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that downtown only? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. We rode all over the city. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What particular business did you have in there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Oh, we went in, we went into several places, maybe to get +a cold drink, checking maybe to see if there was some drunks in there, +just regular, routine checks more or less. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever see him on a social basis? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him in any capacity other than as a +police officer? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you in the last 12 years had any part-time jobs while +you were with the police department? + +Mr. HARRISON. Any part-time jobs while I--I didn't understand that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; while you were a member of the police department, did +you have any part-time jobs? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I have had part-time jobs. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with any of this part-time work, have you +ever worked with Jack Ruby? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of part-time jobs have you had? + +Mr. HARRISON. Around parade of homes, working traffic around these +parades of home, and on special occasions, like where they have +big traffic problems, and in, well, you might say, jewelry stores, +department stores, working in both. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any special trade like carpenter, +bricklayer or anything like that? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you left the police department +at 4 o'clock on Friday? + +Mr. HARRISON. I drove home, went home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you the remainder of the evening? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I don't recall at all, but I believe I was at my +home. I don't think I had left the house. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that makes you think you might have +been some place else? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. I just don't remember back that--if I went anywhere +or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what shift did you work on Saturday? + +Mr. HARRISON. 8 to 4. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you report for duty at the juvenile---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the building all day on Saturday? + +Mr. HARRISON. On a Saturday? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you worked out of the building on +Saturday? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't recall. It was just a normal, routine day, +as far as our work was concerned, handling the juvenile prisoners and +checking those beeves that we had assigned to us. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you went on duty on Saturday, did +you receive any telephone calls or other communications from Jack Ruby +or anybody who was an associate of Jack Ruby? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the police department about 4 p.m. on Saturday? + +Mr. HARRISON. On Saturday? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. No; I beg your pardon. Yes; it was about 4 +o'clock on Saturday afternoon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you left the police department, had +you heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald, proposed movement +of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I hadn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do Saturday after you left work? + +Mr. HARRISON. I went home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you spend Saturday night at home? + +Mr. HARRISON. Spend Saturday night at home; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for work on Sunday? + +Mr. HARRISON. 8 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, anytime on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anywhere? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of his friends or associates anyplace? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know any of his friends or associates. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with a fellow by the name of George +Senator? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the last year, the year prior to the time that +the President was shot, how often did you have occasion to visit Ruby's +place? + +Mr. HARRISON. I believe that I went in his place one time within the +last year. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't--I don't recall. A group of us. I say a group of +us. Occasionally, we will hear about some juvenile being in a place +like that, and occasionally we will check to see if there are any down +there, and, if I recall, I believe Officer Cutchshaw and myself went +down to the Carousel Club one time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In the course of your duties, did you ever find that Jack +Ruby provided any useful information to the police department? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you or any of the officers that you know in the police +department attempt ever to obtain information out of Jack Ruby with +respect to your duties? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't. I don't know if any of the other officers +did or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There wasn't ever any occasion when you tried to get any +assistance or information from him? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for work on Saturday--Sunday, +rather--you say you report at 8 o'clock? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the normal reporting time in your bureau? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car? + +Mr. HARRISON. I parked it over by the garage on Young Street, and +actually, well, it was on a parking lot there next to the garage. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Young and---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what intersection? + +Mr. HARRISON. Young and Pearl Expressway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come into the building with any of your fellow +officers? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came into the building +through? + +Mr. HARRISON. I drove into the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about the police department building. + +Mr. HARRISON. I drove into the basement of the city hall there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, I thought you parked your car there. + +Mr. HARRISON. I did. I parked my personal car on the parking lot across +from the police garage on Young and Pearl. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. HARRISON. I picked up a city car at the garage, drove to the +basement of the city hall, where I parked it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What car number was it? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. Don't have any idea. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any sort of record that is maintained on what +cars you drive? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, we fill out a slip on each car we drive every day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you fill out a slip on that car? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where do you get the keys to one of those cars that +is over there? + +Mr. HARRISON. They are left in the car, they are in the cars. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And are they kept in a locked garage, is that it? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; it is a two-story parking affair, enclosed in a fence +up to, you know---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a guard on the fence? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; there is no guard. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there any particular reason for taking that car +that day? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, we always park our personal car and pick up our +city car and drive over close to the city hall there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And it is part of your responsibility, you +ordinarily pick up a car? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a particular car assigned to you? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no. We have a pool system. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive back with anybody to the police department? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I was alone that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you parked the car in the garage of the +municipal building and walked by the jail office? + +Mr. HARRISON. To the elevator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When you arrived, were there any newspaper people +down in the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. In the basement? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; not that I recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether there were any TV cameras set up +when you arrived that day in the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you came in, I take it that you came in down the Main +Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a guard on the Main Street ramp at the time that +you came? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not at that time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the third floor? Is +that right? + +Mr. HARRISON. I went to the juvenile bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the locker room first? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You went right up to the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On the third floor? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was there in the juvenile bureau when +you got in? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. Goolsby was working the desk and Mrs. McLine was +there and Miller and Lowery. I believe Cutchshaw. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you recall? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Martin there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall seeing him when I first come in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived, what did you do as soon as you arrived +up there in the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. HARRISON. We checked to see what we had assigned to us. They assign +the beeves of a morning when we first come in and put a copy of it in +our drawer, and we always check the first thing to see if we have any +messages or if there has been anything assigned to us to work on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have anything assigned to you at that time to +work on? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did after you checked your +assignments? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, Miller and I went to eat breakfast. I don't know +the exact time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that was after you arrived? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea. Approximately 20 or 30 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with anybody concerning what was going +on in the homicide office or what was going on in connection with Lee +Oswald when you came in? + +Mr. HARRISON. I beg your pardon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you come into the juvenile bureau, did you talk to +any of the people in connection with what was happening with Lee Oswald? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall. I may have asked if he was still up +there. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that--excuse me. + +Mr. MacMaster, this is Mr. Hubert of our office. Mr. MacMaster is +assistant city attorney. This is Mr. Harrison, Mr. Hubert. + +Mr. HARRISON. Hello. Glad to see you, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you arrived in the building, had you +heard anything in connection with the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald to +the county jail? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I hadn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything about whether he was going to be +moved at all that day? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, the--they were talking, the pressmen were talking +about it out in the hall as we come by. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear the press people say? + +Mr. HARRISON. They said he would be moved sometime that morning, and I +couldn't tell you who the pressmen were or anything. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer Miller about this when you got +in? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with any of the officers about this? + +Mr. HARRISON. When Captain Martin came in, I believe we had gone to get +breakfast, and when we got back, they told us to stay around the bureau +there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you went out to get breakfast, where did +you have breakfast? + +Mr. HARRISON. At the Deluxe Diner there at the 1900 block of Commerce. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose suggestion was it to go out for breakfast? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. Mine or Miller's one. I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask anybody else to go with you? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It was just you and Miller that went to the Deluxe Diner? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody at the Deluxe Diner that you knew? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the people who operate the diner or the +waitresses? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. I know some of them that work over there, but I don't +recall who was working that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you visit there often enough so that they know you? + +Mr. HARRISON. Some of the employees do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you left the juvenile bureau, who did you talk +with before going? You didn't ask anybody to come with you. Did you +tell anybody that you were going out? + +Mr. HARRISON. We told the deskman, Goolsby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Goolsby? + +Mr. HARRISON. We were going over to get a cup of coffee. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, how long did you remain at the Deluxe Diner? + +Mr. HARRISON. I would say around 30 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anything happen over there? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the movement of Lee Oswald at all? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. We didn't know anything about it then. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you talked about over there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I sure don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Speculation about whether they were going to get a story +out of him, a confession, or anything like that? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did you happen to decide to leave the diner? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were through eating and went back over to the +city hall there to the bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if you talked with anybody while you were +over at the Deluxe Diner? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you talked with any--had any +telephone calls when you were there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I believe I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. + +Mr. HARRISON. I believe I did have a phone call. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What do you remember about the phone call? + +Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Goolsby. He called us and told us not to +leave the city hall, that was the captain's order, Captain Martin's +order. He told us to come on back to the bureau when we got through +eating. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. HARRISON. I recall that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you got back to the bureau, did you +report back in to Goolsby? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, he saw us come in. We didn't have to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Martin when you got back? + +Mr. HARRISON. I believe he was there when we got back in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody when you got back about the +proposed movement of Oswald? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. Of course, it may have been discussed there as to +what time it would be. I don't recall who was talking or what was said, +but I know we were told to stand by the bureau there by Captain Martin. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did Martin tell you this? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, actually, on this phone call Goolsby made over +there, he told us that the captain had told us to stand by there in the +bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. HARRISON. When we got back up there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Martin then tell you the same thing when you got +up? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether he did or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long was it between the time that you got this +call from Goolsby and you actually went down to the basement in +connection with the movement of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. HARRISON. I would say about 2 hours. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you came back from the diner, how did you come back +into the building? + +Mr. HARRISON. Came across to Harwood Street and down to the Harwood +Street entrance to the city hall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you went out, did you go out that way or did you +go out by the Commerce Street entrance? + +Mr. HARRISON. Went that way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody around the police building at +that time whom you recognized that wasn't either a police officer or a +newspaperman? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; when we came back, there was a man by the name +of Johnny Miller, who owns a trailer house sales on West Davis. It +is right across from Sivils parking lot there. It is a trailer sales +company. He was standing in the door of this television company truck +talking, and he turned around and shook hands with me and spoke to me, +and I went on in the building. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what he said to you? + +Mr. HARRISON. He just spoke to me and shook hands with me said he was +glad to see me, and that is the extent of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Miller know Ruby, to your knowledge? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. I don't know that, whether he knows him or +not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything that would lead you to think that he might? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I have known Miller just about the same length of +time that I have known Ruby, but I don't know whether he even knew Ruby +or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Miller a close, personal friend of yours? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no; just an acquaintance. Oh, I have stopped out +there at his place and sat there and talked to him and have gone and +had coffee with him, but just an acquaintance, not a personal friend. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a TV sales and repair shop that he runs? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; a house trailer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sorry. House trailer. House trailer. Okay. Now, do +you remember what you did in those roughly 2 hours between the time you +got back up to the juvenile bureau and the time that you went down to +the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; I don't recall, except sitting up there +answering the phone and just checking on beeves that I had had assigned +to me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you all keeping your eye out for when Oswald would be +moved? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, we knew that we would be told, that someone would +come and get us. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of what would be the occasion for +moving Oswald, what would be done before Oswald would be moved? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the homicide people were questioning +Oswald at that time? + +Mr. HARRISON. We didn't know they were. We assumed that they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there reporters running in and out of the office? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they talking about the events that were going on? + +Mr. HARRISON. They were mostly using the phone. They weren't talking to +us. They were mostly calling their home office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. They were using the phone in your office? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to hear what they were saying over the +telephone? + +Mr. HARRISON. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. +There were three of us in there that morning. All we told them was to +leave us three lines open because we were pretty busy ourselves. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the next thing you recall in connection with the +movement of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. HARRISON. About, I would say, 3 or 4 or 5 minutes to 11. I went +down to the subbasement to get me some cigars, and as I come back up +out of the subbasement, well, then the officers out of our bureau were +going across from the elevator to the--to there in front of the jail +office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two basements, as I understand it, in the +Police and Courts Building. One is the basement level that the garage +is on and the jail office and the records room? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is a subbasement? + +Mr. HARRISON. Locker room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Locker room down below that. Now, how did you get down +from the third floor into the subbasement? Does the elevator go all of +the way down? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no; it stops at the floor where the jail office is. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you get out of the jail office, where do +you have to go? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, actually to the south end. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk down to the hallway and then you open a door? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; you go down a stairway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Go down a stairway? + +Mr. HARRISON. Into the subbasement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is, is there not, a doorway, as you walk from +Commerce Street down the steps to go to the door that entered into +the building and through the hallway that you had walked down? Do you +follow me? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's suppose that you walked from the record room to +the subbasement by way of the hallway that leads out towards Commerce +Street. + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that hallway has a door that goes out of the +building, does it not? + +Mr. HARRISON. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you open that door and go out of the building, +there are two other doors, right? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, isn't there a door on your--on your left as you face +Commerce Street, isn't there a door on your left that goes into the +engine room? + +Mr. HARRISON. Actually, I have never--I believe there is a door there. +It is underneath where the stairway goes up. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a door straight ahead where the stairway +goes up? In other words, as you walk out of the door from the building +to leave the building and you step out of there, there is another door +right in front of you right under this stairs---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn't there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that door leads down to the subbasement, doesn't it? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I have never been down that way. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. From the assembly room, in the assembly room, +where is this cigar dispensing machine? + +Mr. HARRISON. They are not in the assembly room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Not in the assembly room, in the locker room. + +Mr. HARRISON. In the locker room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is it located? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know how to describe it to you. The machine is +about, I guess, 18 foot from the door--from the stairway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the far south end? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; it is kind of west of the stairway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. West of the stairway, but it is on the south side of the +room, it is on the side closest to Commerce Street? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; that is where all of the locker rooms are, lockers +are. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HARRISON. Now, there is a door that separates the locker room from +the area where the cold drinks and where the---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. HARRISON. Where the cold drinks and the cigar machine and the +cigarette machines are, there is a door that separates that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. We are all talking about the same thing here. I am not +sure that Mr. MacMaster knows what we are talking about here. Would +you draw Main Street or draw Commerce Street up on one end, which is +convenient to you, and draw Harwood, and why don't you label them, +write "Main," "Commerce," and "Harwood" in the appropriate spots? All +right. Where is the doorway that you entered the locker room by, where +would that be? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, this being the stair down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. HARRISON. There is no door here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HARRISON. There is a wall approximately in this position and there +is a double door here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. HARRISON. All right. There is a big post here. It has a telephone +on it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. HARRISON. Cigar machine sits right here beside of this post. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. HARRISON. And the Dr. Pepper and coke machines are all up and down +this right side. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What is in this area to the south of the +doorway? + +Mr. HARRISON. This? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. HARRISON. Lockers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw that in there, write that in there? Write +"Locker Room" or something. Did you have a locker in there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your locker located, approximately? + +Mr. HARRISON. Down here, however it hadn't been used in over 2-1/2 or 3 +years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody down here when you went down there to +get the cigars? + +Mr. HARRISON. There was no one down there when I went down there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to go into the locker room? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after you got the cigars? + +Mr. HARRISON. Went back upstairs. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see anybody on the way up or down whom you +recognized as not being a newspaperman or a police officer. + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, at that time, there was no one in that immediate +area. The officers were going across from the elevator to the jail +office, the officers out of the juvenile bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you came up, you found the officers had left? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean had left the juvenile bureau, right? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, they were leaving the elevator coming across. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met them in the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. Met them in the basement, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you see there at that time? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was Miller, Lowery and Cutchshaw, Goolsby, +and I believe that was all out of our bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you saw them? + +Mr. HARRISON. One of them told me to come on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which one that was? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall who it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go with them? + +Mr. HARRISON. We stood in front of the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what happened as you waited around there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were waiting around to get--find out where they +were going to put us. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you finally get some instructions from somebody? + +Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Captain Jones that come in and told us +that--to come on out into the area there in the driveway, and he told +us that he wanted all of the newsmen on the east side of the drive and +that he wanted nothing but officers over in this corridor here and +where the--well, on the west wall, in other words. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let's go off of the record here. I want to find out. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this diagram that you have drawn here +Harrison Exhibit 5027, and I am going to ask you, Officer Harrison, if +you will just put in here "coke machine" or whatever these things are, +"cigar machine." + +Mr. HARRISON. This is a post here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. A post. A support post. All right. Why don't you mark that +post, then? And then mark the area where the--okay. Now, and that is +"door." Okay. Now, would you sign that any place where you can get your +signature and then date it? + +(Recess.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. We were at the point where you had come into the basement +area and seen the people coming down from the juvenile bureau. Before +you went down there, had you left word that you would be down in the +locker room? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I told Goolsby that I was going down and get me some +cigars. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you were down in the basement +that somebody gave you some instructions as to what was to be done? + +Mr. HARRISON. Captain Jones, I believe it was, had come out and told +us to go out into the ramp area, the garage, and to set--to put these +photographers and newspeople on the east side of the driveway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you take this map, diagram or chart (Harrison Exhibit +5028) which is--actually is a reduction of a chart that the Dallas +Police Department made for us some time ago and purports to represent +the basement area? You can see the jail office here? + +Mr. HARRISON. Uh-huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you can see Commerce Street over here and Main Street +here and the garage area here and the Main Street ramp going down +and the Commerce Street ramp going up, and this shows a solid wall +along Commerce Street here. Actually, this is the basement wall. The +basement extends out under the sidewalk, but if you were looking at +this at ground level, you would see this broken line is the wall of the +building. Now, directing your attention to the part that shows the exit +from the jail office and the ramps and the entrance into the garage, +can you mark on there what Captain Jones--how Captain Jones indicated +that the newspeople were to be displaced by the officers? + +Mr. HARRISON. He wanted them across along here on this side. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to put a series of "X's" or something along +there to show? + +Mr. HARRISON. You want to put "news"? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you might put some mark on there. This would be news +media, newspeople, also? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you mark that "news," also? Now, were there to +be any newspaper people from the northern side of the entrance to the +garage on up toward the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. There were some. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But what instructions did he give in that regard? + +Mr. HARRISON. He didn't. He just stated that he wanted them on the east +side of the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he say anything with respect to whether he wanted +them on the east side or the west side of the railing? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; he didn't specify that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that there were to be no news +media in this area other than the TV people? + +Mr. HARRISON. In this area right here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What about in the area to the north of where you have +placed the "X's"? Was it your understanding that---- + +Mr. HARRISON. There were floodlights standing here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you are placing circles on the map. Now, did he +give--go ahead. + +Mr. HARRISON. There were cameras here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he give instructions as to where the police +officers were to stand? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any instructions with respect to forming any +lines of police officers or anything like that? + +Mr. HARRISON. I didn't hear it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long was this before Lee Oswald was brought down +that these instructions were given? + +Mr. HARRISON. This was approximately, oh, maybe 10 or 11 minutes before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that 10 or 11 minutes? + +Mr. HARRISON. I took up a position in the ramp area here and assisted +with getting the newsmen on the east side of the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay in the same general area? + +Mr. HARRISON. I did; yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate on the map by a circle and an "X" where +was it you were, generally? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Actually, Mr. MacMaster, if you feel like you would like +to recess this at some particular hour, let me know. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Let me suggest this. Do you have any idea how long this +interrogation will last? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I wouldn't expect it to go more than 45 minutes. + +Mr. MacMASTER. More? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don't think it will go any longer than that, +however---- + +Mr. MacMASTER. What is your--would you just rather stay and finish? + +Mr. HARRISON. I would rather stay and finish. + +Mr. MacMASTER. All right. I wonder if I may make my one phone call here +on the phone? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure. + +Mr. HARRISON. May I ask you something here? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let's wait until he finishes. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Well, let's go ahead. My 13-year-old daughter is on the +phone, so that is a career itself trying to get home. I am not going to +worry about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Feel free at any time to interrupt me. Go ahead. You +wanted to ask me. + +Mr. HARRISON. I made these two things setting too far away. Actually, +this camera was setting in this first aisle, one of them was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. HARRISON. The cameras were right in line here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were making an effort to steer these news people +over into this area and away from the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when Sam Pierce's car drove out? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; I do. I let the--I had to move the people back +out of the way. There was actually two cars went out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There were two cars? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me about that. + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was a patrolman went out that direction in a +squad car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that was? + +Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Mr. O'Dell. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long before or after Pierce's car did he go out? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, it was some 3 or 4 or 5 minutes, something +like that, I am sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's focus on Mr. O'Dell's car, then. Was +anybody in the car with him? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what--for what purpose he went out? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What division is he assigned to? + +Mr. HARRISON. Radio patrol. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you aware, while you were down in the basement, +of anybody being dispatched to change the positioning of the people +along the street who were supposed to block off Elm Street? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any knowledge at all of how the route was to +go, how Oswald was to be conveyed? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any knowledge as to what was to be used +to convey him? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, when we got down there, they were bringing this +armored car, backing the armored car, into the south end or Commerce +Street side of the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall or would you have been in a position to see +whether the armored car was actually in the ramp when you arrived on +the scene? + +Mr. HARRISON. They were backing it in at the time that we came out into +the driveway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you able to tell whether it would appear that +it had just got to the ramp or how long it had been there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did O'Dell get his car from? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know that. The first time I noticed it was when +he came up here through the newsmen. I got them to move back where +he could get by, and then there was a couple of men standing up here +talking. I believe it was one of the--one of the supervisors talking to +a reserve captain, who was standing there. I believe it was Arnett. I +am not sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there were--at the time that O'Dell's car went out, +there were police officers in the direction of the Main Street ramp, +closer to Main Street than you were? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place on there all of the--all right. Let me +strike that. Go ahead. Tell me what you want to say. + +Mr. HARRISON. At the time that O'Dell's car came out, I was back here, +in this position here, to help get these men out of the way of the car, +and then it was shortly after that that I took up this position here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. All right. Now, at the time that O'Dell's car came +out--well, let's strike this. Prior to the time that O'Dell's car came +out, were you ever in this area here? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I was moving from this area around to here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. HARRISON. In other words, keeping---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Maybe we can do this sort of like a football +diagram. Why don't you put your initials right there? And down here why +don't you draw a circle and an "X" and just say, "Initial placement of +Harrison"? Now, why don't you draw an arrow to the general direction of +where you were and put a "1" and draw a circle around that, and then +down in the corner, put a "1" and a circle and put, "Position when +O'Dell's car started to move," if that is correct? Now, when O'Dell's +car moved, were there police officers between you and Main Street? + +Mr. HARRISON. There was--I believe there was a captain--I don't recall +who it was--I believe it was Captain Jones, though--talking to this +uniformed reserve captain. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Solomon? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; Arnett. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Arnett? + +Mr. HARRISON. In the Dallas reserves. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other police officers up in that general +direction? + +Mr. HARRISON. There were officers out in this area right in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to the area north of the entrance to the +jail? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, no; right along the side here. See, this was lined +with officers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The first place that you indicate to is the south wall of +the entranceway toward the jail office and up to the corner of the ramp +and then along the ramp, the east wall of the ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. West wall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. West wall of the ramp toward Commerce Street? + +Mr. HARRISON. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is where there were police officers? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. And also that there were police officers along the +north wall of the entranceway leading toward the door of the jail +office, officers right in there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, as O'Dell's car moved up the ramp, what +did you do? + +Mr. HARRISON. I just moved these men back and--or asked them to move +back--and let him out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, did you watch his car go up the ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see what Jones and Arnett did? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. Well, I know they moved back out of the way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there news people strung across the Main Street ramp +who had to be moved out of the way in order to let O'Dell's car move +through? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not at that time, not on O'Dell's car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what then happened? Where did you then go after +O'Dell's car went up the ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. Back into my original area. It was about halfway between +the ramp and--the rail and the west wall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you looking around the area generally? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if anybody had come down the Main Street ramp while +you were standing there up until the time that Pierce's car went out, +would you have seen him come down? + +Mr. HARRISON. Would you repeat that, now? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If anybody had come down the Main Street ramp up to +the time, between the time that O'Dell's car left and the time that +Pierce's car went up, would you have seen the person who was coming +down there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't think I would have. I was facing more or less +back in this particular---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. At any time during those few minutes between +O'Dell's car leaving and Pierce's car leaving, did you look in the +direction of the Main Street ramp or over in the direction of the +garage area? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, if Jack Ruby had been in that area during that +period, would you have seen him? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know about that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, why do you say that? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether I would have seen him or not. It was +mass confusion, as far as people moving around in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But the confusion was over in the area at the entrance of +the garage, wasn't it? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And this area up the Main Street ramp was relatively clear? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you knew Jack Ruby well enough, certainly as well as +you know Mr. MacMaster, if you saw him just even briefly, you would +recognize him? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So if at any time you had looked over in that area and +Jack Ruby were there, you would have seen him, wouldn't you? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was very hard to see in this direction at all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In the direction of the garage? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? + +Mr. HARRISON. In this position. These floodlights were very bright. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. HARRISON. They had--I don't know how many they had. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were the floodlights on prior to the time that +Oswald came out? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they--try to think about this, now--were they on when +you first came into the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't believe they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they were taken--did you know whether or not, when +the armored car came down the Commerce Street ramp, the, TV cameras, +any of the TV cameras, were focused on that armored car? + +Mr. HARRISON. I didn't notice that. He didn't get all of the way down +there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Rio Pierce's car moved out, were the +floodlights on? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that O'Dell's car moved out, were the TV +cameras--were the floodlights on? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether they were on or off. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have any trouble seeing up in the direction +of the armored car? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And standing, from where you were, even in the center +of the entranceway toward the jail office, you could see up the ramp +toward the armored car and you could recognize the faces of people up +there, couldn't you? + +Mr. HARRISON. Possibly, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there--other than the little difficulty we all +experience with vision, either through age or what-not, was there +anything unusually difficult about looking up in the direction and +seeing in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far up the ramp was the armored car or how far +down the ramp, I should say? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't go up there, but it appeared to be setting +just backed into the doorway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say it was halfway down? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; it wasn't halfway down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there officers, police officers, standing up +there around the back of the armored car? + +Mr. HARRISON. I remember seeing Lieutenant Butler up there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you distinguish these police officers from the +position in the middle of the entranceway to the jail office where you +have marked your initial, where you have marked your initial position +on the ramp here, could you, looking up towards Commerce Street, could +you distinguish the faces of the police officers up there, could you +recognize who they were, toward the armored car? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I recognized Lieutenant Butler, but I don't recall +seeing--now, Chief Batchelor was around the truck. They went in and out +of the truck there inspecting it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall seeing him up there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. And you didn't have any difficulty seeing +Batchelor from your position on the ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And presumably the same situation would prevail if you +looked up toward the Main Street ramp, isn't that right? + +Mr. HARRISON. That is right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ever have occasion to look up toward the Main +Street ramp and see the police officer who was guarding the exit to the +ramp up there? + +Mr. HARRISON. There was a uniformed officer up there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from where you were down here at what we have called +your initial position, on the time or times that you looked up toward +that uniformed officer up there, could you make out his face and +what-not? + +Mr. HARRISON. I never did see his face. All I could see was a man in +uniform up there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, we have learned subsequently, and you have, too, I am +sure, that that was Officer Vaughn that was up there? + +Mr. HARRISON. That is right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Vaughn before? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from where you were that it was +Vaughn up there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't know who it was up there. I could just see +his uniform and back. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it because he didn't turn his face to you? + +Mr. HARRISON. He was facing out when I looked up there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel that, if he turned his face toward you, you would +have recognized who it was? + +Mr. HARRISON. I would probably have recognized him; yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if the same thing is true, when you looked +up toward the Commerce Street entrance and the sidewalk, there were--do +you remember that there were officers guarding up there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I couldn't see any officers out there. It was +considerably darker up on this end of the ramp due to the fact that the +armored truck had the light blocked off. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. HARRISON. I mean the vision, it was pretty well--the whole ramp +area was pretty well taken up by that truck? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let me make sure that I am clear on that. I don't +want to put words in your mouth. Is it fair to say that, if on any +occasion that you had to look up toward the Main Street ramp, if there +had been a man walking down that ramp, you or any other officer with +vision like yourself would have been able to recognize that person +coming down the ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether you could have recognized him or not +due to the fact that you were looking into sunlight. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that is the north side of the building. + +Mr. HARRISON. That is on the north side of the building, but it was +very bright that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also had floodlights down in the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. That is right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It was bright in the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. That is right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Your eyes would be accustomed to those bright lights? + +Mr. HARRISON. A man coming down, if he got close to you, you could +recognize him, but just a man in a suit walking down that ramp, it +would have been hard to recognize. I will put it that way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would a man walking down from the Main Street side +have been any more difficult to recognize than a man that was standing +up in the position that Captain Butler was or Assistant Chief Batchelor +was? + +Mr. HARRISON. Batchelor and Butler, Lieutenant Butler. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been any more difficult to recognize a man +coming down the Main Street ramp than it would those two men coming up +the Commerce Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I believe it would have been, due to the glare in +your face. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you keeping an eye out generally for people, +news people, who might try to drift over into that area, and by "that +area," I am referring to the area along the Main Street ramp, across +the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. Would you ask that question again? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. HARRISON. And point out there, please. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. I am referring to the area that goes directly across +the Main Street ramp down to the base of the ramp. That area, as I +understand it, was supposed to be kept clear. Were you keeping an eye +out to make sure that people didn't congregate in there? + +Mr. HARRISON. There was several officers in this area right in here. +I don't know the names of them. I couldn't spot any of them for you. +There was one newsman, who had a microphone, immediately to my right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, your right as you faced in what direction? + +Mr. HARRISON. As I was facing south. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be toward Commerce Street? + +Mr. HARRISON. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At what point was there a man there? + +Mr. HARRISON. He was even with me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean at what time---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Oh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In this series of events. + +Mr. HARRISON. He was in that general area all of the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you keep an eye on him? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. I wasn't particularly watching him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other news people who were there in that +area? + +Mr. HARRISON. There was a Japanese photographer on my left, immediately +to my left. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Officer Harrison, this position that you have +marked here as the initial position, is that also approximately the +position you were standing at the time that Oswald walked out? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So that, when you say on your left there, are +you talking about at the time that Oswald actually walked out, that is +where that Japanese photographer, newsman, was? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put an "X," if you would, put a small "J" on +that map where that man was and put a circle around it. Now, that is +where the Japanese photographer was standing at the time that Oswald +walked out---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? Now, where was this man with the microphone +standing? + +Mr. HARRISON. He was immediately to my right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put an "M" and a circle around him? Now, +were there any other police officers over in this general area where +you 3 people were? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the other police officers? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when Rio Pierce's car came out, what did +you do? + +Mr. HARRISON. I got these people to move back out of the way and let +him through, and I stepped back to the rail, toward the lights there +and let him through. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you have your back to the railing or +were you facing the railing? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I had my back to the railing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch Pierce's car go up the ramp at all? + +Mr. HARRISON. I watched it until it cleared the people in that +immediate area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were there to clear out in that immediate +area, would you say? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was seven or eight, I would say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't say there were as many as 20 or 25, would you? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were those people all newspaper people, members of +the press, or were there some police officers? + +Mr. HARRISON. There were some police officers in that area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, at the time that Oswald actually came out of +the jail office, how many lines of people, would you say, were strung +along in that area that you were? Was there more than one line of +people? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Now, where are you referring to? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, as Oswald walked out, there was a line +of people that came from the north---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Northwest. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What corner are we going to call that, northwest or +northeast? I think this would be the west. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Northwest, that is right, isn't it? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; that is correct. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to put "Northwest corner" here so we will know +what we are talking about. There was a line of people, was there not, +from what I have marked the northwest corner of the Main Street wall +all of the way over to you and then around here? No? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am honestly trying to find out here how these +people were lined up. + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, due to these lights and the cameras being here, +this area was open. There was, like I say, this Japanese, and there was +another man or two in that area here, whom I don't--I don't have any +idea who he was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Just put a couple of question marks there. Okay. + +Mr. HARRISON. And behind me, there were--not immediately behind me, but +back in this area---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. HARRISON. Toward the west wall, there was police and also Captain +Arnett of the reserves standing--he was standing fairly close to me +behind me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Captain Arnett? Put an "A" where you think he +was and then put a circle around that. + +Mr. HARRISON. He was in that general area somewhere. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Oswald walked out? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I believe he was. I am not---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him there about that time? + +Mr. HARRISON. I remember seeing the uniform there, and he was the +captain who was in the uniform down there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember seeing these people over here at that +time? + +Mr. HARRISON. They were--yes; they were there. There were, I believe, +two people right in here and there were the cameramen behind the rail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Blackie, do you remember this from actual memory of what +happened or do you remember this from having seen the photographs, the +films? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I remember these people on my left here and the +ones here on my right. I remember this man with a microphone very +distinctly because, when they brought him out, these fellows back here +hollered for me to move the line back, which I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember if there were any people directly +behind you? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; not that I recall. I remember I spread my arms out +and backed the group up where these cameras could get a clear shot of +him coming out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is it fair to say that, if there had been people in +back of you, you would have either known it because you were looking +around there or because you would have wanted to have cleared them out +or would have been worried about it or anything like that? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I wouldn't necessarily have seen them, because I +was watching this line across here to keep them from going forward into +the path of this--of where Oswald was coming out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at any time after Rio Pierce's car went up that ramp, +did you look in the direction of the ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any other officers look in the direction of +the ramp during that period? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were over here, as Rio Pierce's car drove +out, were other officers lined up along---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The other wall? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And, to your knowledge, were any of them looking out in +this direction toward the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. I didn't notice any of them looking out that way. They +could have been. There was--I know, when they brought Oswald out, +Lowery was standing right here on the--on this corner. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you put a mark, put an "L" there where Lowery was? +Did you at any time, now, did you see Jack Ruby in this basement at any +time before he shot Oswald? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not before he shot Oswald. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were standing here, did you feel a man pressing +up against your back? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you have seen the photographs, haven't you? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you saw where Jack came from? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody that you know of that saw Ruby there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not that I know of. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to anybody that indicated to you that he +saw Ruby there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I sure haven't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I grabbed him and more or less went to the floor +with him and then we took him on into the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with him in the jail office? + +Mr. HARRISON. Until he was handcuffed, and I went upstairs on the +elevator with him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with him upstairs? + +Mr. HARRISON. I didn't. I left him at the elevator. McMillon and Archer +went back, took him on back to the cell, and I went back down on the +elevator to the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do--you weren't present, were you, when Jack +was stripped and searched? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back down to the basement, where did you go? + +Mr. HARRISON. I went back out into the ramp area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you--how long did you remain in the ramp area? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was about--until after the ambulance left with +Oswald, and then the captain--I believe it was Captain Jones--sent me +up to the first floor to see that no one come in there in that--on +the first floor that wasn't authorized. We were given orders to stop +everyone and see if they were going out of the building to find out who +they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts did you station yourself on the first floor? + +Mr. HARRISON. I was right there in front of the elevators, at the +elevator door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there alone? + +Mr. HARRISON. There was--well, there was three or four more officers on +that floor. There was one at every door and exit. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Miller up there with you? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall where Miller was at that time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Lowery up there with you? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Cutchshaw? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether they were or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody while you were up there or before +you got up there concerning how Ruby got into the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I told Chief Batchelor, just after I come back +downstairs from taking him up--I told Chief Batchelor that I thought +he come from behind those cameras over there, but--and that is where I +thought he come from at that time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why did you think he came from behind the cameras? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was--he came from my left, and I don't see +how he could get down the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you feel that way? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I knew there was an officer on the ramp and I just +didn't feel like he could have gotten down there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you also feel that you would have seen him if he had +come down that ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, not necessarily; because I wasn't looking toward the +ramp all of the time. I never--had I been turned where I could have +seen the ramp all of the time, I may have seen him coming down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack had been in that--were you moving around such +after Rio Pierce's car moved that, if Jack had been down there in the +basement area, you would have seen him? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not necessarily; it is possible that he could have been +down there and I wouldn't have seen him because he had been back over +in this group of newsmen. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; but if he had been in the area of the ramp, if +he had been up in this area where you were and around up toward the +Main Street ramp, would you have seen him if he had been in there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I might have. I don't--I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There weren't enough news people milling around up in that +area to have obscured him, were there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Not in that immediate area; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, if anybody had been turning and looking up +toward the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper +people in there to have obscured the sight of Jack Ruby? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't suppose there would have been. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. I want to +make this very clear. I am giving you a direct question like this, but +if you feel differently, I want to know if you disagree with me. I am +asking a leading question here, but I want to make sure that I am not +leading---- + +Mr. HARRISON. What was the question again? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had been in this area at the base of the Main +Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people there? +The fact that there were newspaper people around wouldn't have obscured +the sight of him from anybody that was looking up in that direction? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't think it would have obscured him, had they been +looking in that direction. Now, I did, as I said a while ago, I have +looked at some films, and I did look to my left, oh---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. By "left," you mean up in the direction of the Main Street +ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. When this guy hollered to me to move the crowd back, I +looked to my left and backed the people up. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Your left would be up in the direction of the Main Street +ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; it would be toward the cameras. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Toward the cameras? + +Mr. HARRISON. Television cameras, yes; over in this direction. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as you looked over there, you didn't see Jack Ruby? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember looking over there like that or do you +only remember it from having seen the photograph? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; when they hollered, I glanced over there to see where +we were in trying to---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. HARRISON. In trying to get out of line of those cameras. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember, as you looked over there, whether +you had any difficulty in seeing people over in that area? + +Mr. HARRISON. There wasn't anyone in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In front of the cameras? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; there was no one in front of the cameras. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say would be the total number of people, +including newspaper people and police officers, who were strung from +the northwest corner over toward the cameras at the time Oswald came +out? + +Mr. HARRISON. I would say maybe eight or nine. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. How long did you remain up there by those +elevators? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was, I imagine, 45 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you left the elevators? + +Mr. HARRISON. Went back upstairs to the bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bureau, now, juvenile bureau? + +Mr. HARRISON. Juvenile bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. HARRISON. We stayed there until they told us to--Captain Jones told +us to go up to homicide bureau and write a report as to what we saw and +what we did on this thing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did Captain Jones give the instructions to +write a report to everybody? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, he told--I didn't hear him give it to everybody. He +told me and Cutchshaw and Lowery to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller up there at the time? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether Miller was there or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that Jones was trying to contact +everybody to get them to write a report as quickly as possible? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, I don't know about that. He came up there and +told me to report back to the bureau, and when we got to the bureau, +well, he told--came in and told Lowery, myself, and Cutchshaw--I +remember that very distinctly--to go into Captain Fritz' office and +write a report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time would you say you wrote that report? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me ask you this, then. Maybe this will place it. +After you wrote that report, you went out to Love Field, didn't you? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you estimate that you went to Love +Field? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were supposed to be out there when Mayor +Cabell's plane left. I believe it was at 5:20, and we left the city +hall shortly after 4 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left the city hall, did you make--did you report +in with the dispatcher or anything like that? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; there was no--we went out in two separate cars and +we went to--started up Harwood Street, and they gave Lowery a call to +return to the station, and Captain Martin met us there in the basement +and briefed us as to what to do out at Love Field. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. + +Mr. HARRISON. And then we headed on out to Love Field. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But, on this question, I understand you that +there would not be any record in the office, such as a dispatcher's +record or something like that, that would show when you left for Love +Field, or would there? + +Mr. HARRISON. There would be a record of what time he gave Lowery that +call to return to the station. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And that was a call from captain who? + +Mr. HARRISON. Martin. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had already started out---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And turned around and came back? Okay; now, how much time +elapsed between the time that you finished--well, strike that. Did you +finish writing the report in the homicide office? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between when you finished that +report in the homicide office and you got in your car to go out to Love +Field? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it right away or did you go back to the juvenile +bureau? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, we went back to the juvenile bureau; yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there an original copy--you wrote that report by +hand, didn't you? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, and is that--I am going to call a halt here and I +am going to mark a couple of exhibits. All right. I am going to hand +you, Mr. Harrison, what I have marked as Exhibit No. 5030. Now, this is +a copy of a letter, which you apparently signed and was addressed to +Chief Curry dated November 24. Now, let me ask you, did you write that +out in hand first? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know whether your office has retained +handwritten copies of those reports? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. It was--I am sure it was thrown away. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who did you turn your handwritten copy over to? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know who typed it up. I know this was signed and +sent in by, I think, Lieutenant Wallace. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you do this for me? After we finish here, +would you check with Captain Martin and Lieutenant Wallace and find +out from them if the handwritten copies of the things--of your report, +handwritten copy of your report, is available---- + +Mr. HARRISON. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If it has been retained? I believe that you will find that +many of these were retained. There are other officers who have been +able to get these for us. + +Mr. HARRISON. Uh-huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And so I am inclined to believe that it is probably +available someplace, and if you will get that and turn it over to us, I +would appreciate that very much. We will make a copy of it and return +the original to the department, but I would like a copy of that. Now, +do you remember whether or not--do you remember any of the people who +were in the homicide office when you filled out that report? + +Mr. HARRISON. Cutchshaw, myself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Any of the homicide people who were there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Fritz was there? + +Mr. HARRISON. He was in and out of there during the time that we were +in there, but I don't recall how long he stayed or anything like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Montgomery was there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, Montgomery was in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know about Montgomery being there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I know Montgomery very well. In fact, I used to be +close neighbors to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. HARRISON. And I do remember him being in there. I remember that +very clearly. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Montgomery at all about what had +happened down in the basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in the juvenile bureau, before you left to +go to Love Field, did you hear any rumors as to how Ruby got in the +basement? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. They were talking about--Lowery said that he thought +that he may have come by with a camera that was moved across just prior +to the time that Pierce's car went out, and they were talking about the +number of men who were on that camera, the particular camera. And--but +that is the only discussion I heard as to how he may have got in there. +For some time there, we thought that may have been the way he got in, I +mean the men in my particular bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Lowery first tell you that? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, he had started talking about this when we were in +the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And while you were in the basement, did you hear any other +rumors as to how he got in? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; sure didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as long as you were at the juvenile bureau, did you +hear any rumor about his coming down the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer McMillon on the day before you +went to the juvenile bureau and after Ruby was shot--I mean Oswald was +shot? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Archer? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, they went up on the elevator with me, I found +out later, but I didn't see them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Clardy? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't remember whether Clardy was on there or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Dean? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall if Dean was on there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Dean at any time on the 24th after +Ruby was shot--Oswald was shot? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, I didn't talk with Dean at all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any people in the patrol division---- + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Afterward? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time on Sunday, that is, the day that Oswald was +shot, did you hear the rumor that Ruby came down the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back--what time did you get back to the +juvenile bureau on Friday--I mean on Sunday? + +Mr. HARRISON. It was well after 6 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--when you got back there, did you talk with +anybody about how Ruby might have got in? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I went on home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any discussion from anybody---- + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. From anybody about how--well, weren't people generally +discussing this? + +Mr. HARRISON. I suppose they were, but I was tired, and I went home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't this a big topic of conversation back there at this +time? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you got back on Monday morning--did you +come in Monday morning? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you begin to talk with people about how Ruby got in? + +Mr. HARRISON. I suppose I did, but I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall hearing the rumor +that he came down the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, it would have been possibly Monday. I was off +Tuesday and Wednesday. I am not sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did McMillon ever tell you at any time that--have you +talked with McMillon about this, these events, at any time since Sunday +the 24th? + +Mr. HARRISON. We have had some discussion, but I don't recall what it +was. Of course, we have talked to several. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Dean at any time? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; I have never talked to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you friendly to Dean? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; he is in the radio patrol, and I very seldom see the +man. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How about Archer? + +Mr. HARRISON. Archer, he is in the auto bureau. I see him occasionally. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Clardy? + +Mr. HARRISON. Occasionally; I see him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have any of these men told you since the--since the +time that Oswald was shot by Ruby that Ruby told them that he came in +through the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. HARRISON. They never did tell me that, none of them. Now---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first--go ahead. + +Mr. HARRISON. I heard, after the trial down there--I heard them +discussing, of course, the evidence that was brought out, and they +said that he had made the statement that he came in that way. And when +Lieutenant Wallace and Lieutenant McCaghren were making their followup +investigation, which I don't know how many days it was after, they had +talked that he had, or suggested that he had, come down the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they had suggested this? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, they had, through their investigation, more or +less, they had kind of--I guess you would make a theory out of it that +he had come down the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't mean that they suggested it, but this is the +inference or the conclusion that they drew? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what I would like for you to do is, if you would, +sign Exhibit 5028 and date it. + +Mr. HARRISON. This is the 25th, isn't it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. Isn't it? Yes. I might say for the record, so +that Mr. MacMaster understands, part of the procedures here now permit +you to ask any questions that you want of Mr. Harrison, and I am going +to just ask him to identify, sign these documents, identify them, and +ask him specifically whether he has any changes that he would want to +make on these, particularly on these reports and statements, and I am +prepared to accommodate myself to your time on this, if you feel that +you want to ask some questions. If you prefer to adjourn for dinner, or +something like that, and come back, I would be happy to do that, and +resume it later on this evening. + +Mr. HARRISON. I would rather go ahead with it, if it is agreeable with +you all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn't make any difference with me. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Mr. Harrison, on Exhibit 5026, I believe that was the +first exhibit. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Twenty-seven. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Twenty-seven. That is just a reference to the basement +area. Is that the police recreation room or locker room? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. MacMASTER. That is just a rough hand drawing, you didn't intend +that to be exact to scale in any way? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. + +Mr. MacMASTER. That is all. At the time you were down in the basement +area and they brought Oswald down, with the police security measures +that were in effect, you wouldn't have any reason to believe that any +unauthorized person would enter into the area, would you---- + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Because of the police measures in effect at that time---- + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Security measures? In other words, any other +unauthorized persons in the area, in other words, Ruby, would be a big +surprise to you? + +Mr. HARRISON. It would; yes. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Was it a surprise to you to see an unauthorized person +down there the first time when he came around you? + +Mr. HARRISON. It certainly was. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Now, on extra duty for police officers, isn't it a +standard departmental policy that you can't work on off-duty work at +anyplace serving alcoholic beverages? + +Mr. HARRISON. That is correct. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Is that the chief's direct order? + +Mr. HARRISON. That is a direct order. They have special officers for +that type of work. + +Mr. MacMASTER. But it is in the nature of regular police duty, that is, +special officers? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. MacMASTER. But you can't, that is, in civilian clothes, you can't +work anyplace in an off-duty status for extra money in anyplace serving +alcoholic beverages? + +Mr. HARRISON. That is right; either in uniform or out of uniform. + +Mr. MacMASTER. That is all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Harrison, I wonder if you would look at what I have +marked as Exhibits 5029, 5030, and 5031. Five thousand twenty-nine is +a report of an interview of two FBI agents, Wilkinson and Hardin, had +with you on December 5, 1963; Exhibit 5030 is a copy of a statement or +a letter, which you addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, +entitled, "Subject: Shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald," and Exhibit 5031 is +a copy of--is a report of an interview that Agent Bookhout, [spelling] +B-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, had with you on November 24, 1963. Have you looked +over these statements today? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I have. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to make any changes or corrections or +additions in there in those statements, keeping in mind the testimony +that has already been given here today? + +Mr. HARRISON. This on Mr. Bookhout's interview, which was over the +telephone. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It was? + +Mr. HARRISON. It was over the telephone. I was at Love Field when +this---- + +Mr. MacMASTER. To identify that, that is Exhibit 5031 you are referring +to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; let me ask you a question there. Do you know how +Bookhout reached you there? + +Mr. HARRISON. I had called in to see how long they wanted us to stay +out there, and Lieutenant Coulon identified Mr. Bookhout to me over the +phone. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Bookhout ask you, or did anybody ask you, if any +other officers were out there with you? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Bookhout talk to those officers over the phone, +also? + +Mr. HARRISON. No; he did not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. HARRISON. But this one little part right here, I don't recall +saying that at all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What part is that? + +Mr. HARRISON. "Saved a lot of people some trouble." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, all right. Now, is it possible that you could have +said that to him? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't think I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that you don't think you did? + +Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't hear it. I mean I heard him say this very +plain. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. "I hope I killed the SOB," you heard him say that? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't hear him state, "And saved a lot of people +some trouble"? + +Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall hearing that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you do this? Would you take a pen and +would you put a parenthesis around from "and" to the end of that +sentence, and then would you write in there, "I don't believe I stated +that," or whatever you believe that reflects your opinion at this time? +Would you initial that? + +Mr. HARRISON. I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And date it. It is the 25th day. Now, are there any other +changes or additions or corrections you would make on there? + +Mr. HARRISON. Oh, on this, where it says, "You all know me, I am Jack +Ruby, made that several times," he didn't make the statement but once, +actually and I don't know where this "several times" came from. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Was that just once in your presence? + +Mr. HARRISON. Yes. + +Mr. MacMASTER. In other words, while you were around and near Jack +Ruby, is the only time you heard him was just one time? + +Mr. HARRISON. One time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you cross out "several times" and +write "once"? And why don't you initial it and date it? Anything else +on there? + +Mr. HARRISON. No. It all seems to be---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, sign each of those. + +Mr. HARRISON. Where? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, put it down on the same page that I have marked the +exhibit, some place where it is legible. Why don't you put it down at +the bottom of the page and date it? + +Mr. HARRISON. All of them? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well, not every page. Just every page that I have +marked as an exhibit. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Is that all now? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all that I have got. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Do you have any more? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I do have one other question to ask here. + +Mr. MacMASTER. Okay. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I or any member of the Commission staff talked with +you prior to this deposition? + +Mr. HARRISON. No, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HAROLD B. HOLLY, JR. + +The testimony of Harold B. Holly, Jr., was taken at 8 p.m., on March +26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold B. Holly, Jr. Mr. +Holly, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the staff of the +general counsel to the President's Commission on the Assassination of +President Kennedy. + +Under the authority of the Presidential Proclamation 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules +of procedure that have been adopted by the Commission, I have been +authorized to take your deposition under oath. Now, the general nature +of the inquiry of the Commission is to ascertain the facts concerning +the death of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular as to you, the inquiry is to determine what facts you +know concerning these events, or anything related to them. + +I advise you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, you have +a right to a 3-day written notice prior to being asked to come for a +deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that +right if he wishes to do so. + +You have been asked to come because Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the general +counsel of the Commission, wrote a letter to Mr. J. E. Curry asking +that he make you available. But I repeat, you may either waive the +3-day notice, or if you wish you may insist on the 3-day notice. Do you +wish to waive that notice? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; I would like to go ahead. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean yes, you wish to waive? You would rather go ahead? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand. Do +you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HOLLY. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your full name, sir? + +Mr. HOLLY. Harold B. Holly, Jr. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old are you? + +Mr. HOLLY. Forty-seven. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live? + +Mr. HOLLY. 3429 Antilles, Mesquite. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mesquite, it is not in Dallas? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; it is Mesquite, Tex., a suburb. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are actually a reserve officer of the Dallas +police? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the reserves? + +Mr. HOLLY. Five years, going on six. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation in civilian life? + +Mr. HOLLY. General contractor and cabinetwork. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you own your own business? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir. Nineteen years. + +Mr. HUBERT. In that business? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I know that you performed some services as a reserve +officer on the 22d and 23d, but our inquiry now is as to the functions +you performed on the 24th, or perhaps you didn't perform? + +Mr. HOLLY. Let's say the 23d and the 24th. The assassination took place +the 23d, right? + +Mr. HUBERT. No, 22d. + +Mr. HOLLY. 22d and 23d. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was a Saturday. I am asking about Sunday the 24th. + +Mr. HOLLY. I was up here all day Saturday. Sunday, I didn't +participate, as well as I can remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had not anticipated being called? + +Mr. HOLLY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you, in fact, called on Sunday? + +Mr. HOLLY. I don't recall now. It is pretty vague there. The day of +assassination I was called, and the day Oswald was shot, I was called. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, that was the 24th of November, a Sunday. + +Mr. HOLLY. Sunday. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, how were you called? + +Mr. HOLLY. I beg your pardon, I was here Friday. Friday, Saturday, and +Sunday; I sure was. + +Mr. HUBERT. And at what time were you called on Sunday the 24th the day +Oswald was shot? + +Mr. HOLLY. It was the morning. I believe it was around 9 o'clock and +they called and said for me to report downtown. They were going to try +to move him out around 2 o'clock. I immediately come to town. + +Mr. HUBERT. You got into uniform? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes; and at the present time, I don't recall, because I got +down about 5 minutes after he was shot. I reported for duty at the +entrance of the Main Street entrance to the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. He had already been shot? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you speak who gave you that information? + +Mr. HOLLY. Lieutenant Kriss. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any assignment? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. I was assigned to direct traffic and keep traffic from +bogging down in front of the city hall entrance. And I stayed there +approximately 30 minutes, and then I was reassigned out at Parkland +Hospital. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did you go out there? + +Mr. HOLLY. By the convenience of the city. We was hauled out in a squad +car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go out with any group? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I went out with a group. There were five in our group. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long were you out there? + +Mr. HOLLY. I was there approximately 3 hours. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you in that group? + +Mr. HOLLY. Well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the names? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; I don't. I don't recall none of the names, because I +wasn't familiar with any of the boys. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you remember that during the time that you were out +at Parkland Hospital another reserve officer approached you and stated +that he had seen the man who shot Oswald coming down the ramp? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; he didn't approach me, because I approached him. I +went over to find where I could get some water. I was stationed where +the entrance is where the Governor was, and he told me there was some +coffee and water if I wanted, and I went in and when I came back I +struck up a conversation with the man, and we were talking about---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he a reserve officer? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes; he was a reserve. And in the conversation he said +that he either knew or he saw Ruby down in the city hall, knew of him +getting down in there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he speaking, from what you could tell, of Ruby being +down in there on the morning that Oswald was assassinated? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. I asked him--the conversation went like, well, how in +the world could they ever let him in. Everybody knew him, which most +reserves do know him. + +Mr. HUBERT. You knew him? + +Mr. HOLLY. Oh, yes; I knew him. I did business with him. And I would +know him if I saw him. But I wasn't stationed down there, so therefore, +I don't know. + +And he said he saw him down there, or did see of him, or he in someway, +one of the reserves had let him in, and he had a lapel pass on. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know who he was, this reserve? + +Mr. HOLLY. No. I tried to go through the photographs of who I thought +it was. I never have learned if it was him. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did pick out a person? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the man you picked out? + +Mr. HOLLY. No. Captain Solomon mentioned his name, but I don't recall +it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Newman refresh your memory? + +Mr. HOLLY. Newman? It's been so long ago. I wouldn't say. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there any doubt about your identification? + +Mr. HOLLY. Well, other than I described the man to him, and, of course, +I went over the photographs with Captain Solomon on Sunday. + +Mr. HUBERT. A week later? + +Mr. HOLLY. On that following Sunday after the date. No; it was a week +later. I beg your pardon. It was a week later, and I met him up there +Sunday, and we went over the photographs with men in their uniforms, +and the boy I picked out, Captain Solomon said, "Well, that is one of +the men that is down in the basement," and that is the only one I could +think it could have been. + +And he contacted the man and the man was hunting at that time, and I +never did hear of any more of it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I mean is, the man you did pick out, is there +any doubt in your mind that you picked out the man you spoke to at the +hospital who told you he had seen Ruby? + +Mr. HOLLY. There is a little doubt there, yes. I wouldn't be too +positive of it. But I feel---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen this man since? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; I haven't seen him since. I didn't know him and never +had seen him before that. But I am pretty positive I picked out the +right man, the one that I did see and talk to. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get you straight. You say that you +are pretty positive that you did pick out the right man, but a little +while before you said that you weren't quite sure? There is a little +difference between the two? + +Mr. HOLLY. I went over several photographs with Captain Solomon and he +is the only one that resembles him. + +The photographs he showed me were old photographs, so there was a +little doubt there, and that is the only part I can be doubted on. + +I think he said the photographs he showed me were maybe 3 years old. + +Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't get the man and confront you with him? + +Mr. HOLLY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was this man that you saw a youngish man or middle age or +what? + +Mr. HOLLY. I would say he was in his thirties, about 37 years old or 36 +years old. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he a little husky? + +Mr. HOLLY. He was about 165 or 170, about 5'8" or 9", and blue eyes and +bald headed. + +Mr. HUBERT. He had on a cap? + +Mr. HOLLY. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses. + +Mr. HUBERT. He had on a hat? + +Mr. HOLLY. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, the way I see it, among those pictures that Captain +Solomon showed you, you picked out the man you thought was the man? + +Mr. HOLLY. I still think it was the same man that Captain Solomon--he +didn't tell me prior, but after I picked him out, he said that is the +only man it could have been, because he was down in the basement, and +the way I described it, it fitted the description I had given. He did +explain after it was over that the photographs were about 3 years old. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that you passed on the information that this +reserve officer had given you to someone, did you not? + +Mr. HOLLY. How was that? + +Mr. HUBERT. You reported to someone that a reserve officer had told you? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who did you report it to? + +Mr. HOLLY. I reported it to the CID officer, I guess it was, down on +the first or second floor of the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who it was? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; it was lieutenant someone, through one of the detectives. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which detective was that? + +Mr. HOLLY. Detective Eberhardt. I gave the information to one of the +stenographers up in burglary and theft division, and I typed it out and +sent it on down to the lieutenant. Offhand, I don't recall his name. It +was one of the investigators on the case. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you contacted to make a statement about your +activities? + +Mr. HOLLY. The subject, how it come up, one of the detectives was out +at the house, and the subject came up that they were trying to find out +how in the world Ruby ever got down in the basement. And I said, "Well, +my Lord, one of the reserves let him in." + +Mr. HUBERT. When was that? + +Mr. HOLLY. I would say that was on about a Wednesday or Thursday after +the accident. And he said, "Will you make a statement?" And I said, "I +will be glad to." + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you make a written statement, or was it just oral? + +Mr. HOLLY. Oral statement and I signed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did they write it up in the form of an interview, or did he +write it for your signature as a letter to the chief? + +Mr. HOLLY. A letter to the--it went through--I don't know what +procedure it did go through. I just don't know the hand it went into. + +Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of identification, we will see if we can +determine whether the written reports you have just been speaking of +is one of these, one that I have here. And also in order to get the +contents of these two reports into the record, I am going to identify +them by marking the first one as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit +No. 5109, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr.," and I am signing my name on +the margin. I notice that it has a second page with two lines, and I am +putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner. + +The other document is a document consisting of five pages, being an +interview, or the report of an interview by two FBI agents, Mr. Dallman +and Mr. Quigley. I am marking that as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, +Exhibit No. 5110, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr." I am signing my name +on the first page and putting my initials on the second, third, fourth, +and fifth pages. I would like you, Mr. Holly, if you will, please to +read all these, and I want to ask you about the correctness of each +one. So I would like you to read it carefully and after you have done +so, I will ask you to make any comments you want as to the correctness, +make any changes you want, if it is not correct, because neither of +these are your own statements. This is what other people said you said. +Then I want to find out, too, if there is another report that you, +yourself, signed, because they don't purport to be signed by you. So, +would you do that, please? + +Mr. HOLLY. [Reads report.] + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Holly, I have shown you, and I think you have +read now the exhibits which I have identified as No. 5109, being a +report of an interview of you by Jack Revill, said report being made +to Chief of Police Curry in a letter dated December 1, 1963. Does that +substantially represent what you said? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is anything wrong about it? + +Mr. HOLLY. The only thing I can see wrong is, the report wasn't made +right after the assassination. It was about 5 days afterwards. That is +the only thing I can see. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, this doesn't say when the report was made. +Oh, you mean the report about having heard that? + +Mr. HOLLY. To Lieutenant Revill there. I believe he corrected that, but +it wasn't made right after. Statement says that I made a statement to +Sergeant Eberhart. + +Mr. HUBERT. I don't see anything in 5109 that indicates you made this +report about talking to that man the next day. As a matter of fact, +I don't see where this report of an interview by Revill attempts to +indicate the day on which you reported that this reserve officer had +said these things to you. + +I think the other document does that. Well, let's look at 5110, which +is the FBI report of interview, I think. + +Mr. HOLLY. I believe it was in the FBI report there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on the third page there is of Exhibit 5110, in the +last paragraph, there is the following language. "He relayed this +information to a close personal friend of his, Detective Gus Eberhardt, +who is a regular officer assigned to the burglary and theft bureau. He +believed he told Eberhardt this on the following day." Is that the part +you think is not correct? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; that is not correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you, then? + +Mr. HOLLY. It was about the Sunday. It was about Thursday of that week, +approximately Thursday of that week, he come out to the house, and I +was going to ride with him that night, and he made the statement that +he was trying to find out as to how Ruby entered the city hall, and I +said, "Well, the information you have there I passed on to him." And he +said, "Will you make a signed statement to that effect." And I said, "I +would be glad to." + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you then and there---- + +Mr. HOLLY. I immediately rode to the city hall and made a report, made +a statement to the secretary there in the burglary and theft division. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, let me get another book and perhaps we can get +that in too. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +I am now marking for identification a document which is Commission +Document 81A.48. It is apparently a copy of a letter dated November +29, 1963, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, by A. M. +Eberhardt, Detective. The copy seems to be signed in ink by A. M. +Eberhardt. For identification, I am marking that document, although I +am not removing it from this file, and "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, +Exhibit No. 5111, Deposition of H. B. Holly." I am signing my name, +Leon D. Hubert, Jr. That document consists of only one page. + +Now, going back for a moment to 5110, that is the FBI report, I think +you said that you had read it and that you found it correct, that it is +probably a correct record of the interview you had with the FBI agents, +except that it was in error when it stated that you had conveyed +this information to Eberhart on the day after Oswald was shot. Your +recollection was that it was Thursday of that week? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. This letter indicates, Exhibit 5111, indicates that that +information was passed on to Eberhardt on November 29, which I believe +was a Thursday. + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I don't remember if that is dated or not. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is dated November 29. + +Mr. HOLLY. That was a Wednesday or Thursday after the shooting? + +Mr. HUBERT. The 29th or November 1963, was a Friday night. Could it +have been Friday night? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes; it could have been. + +Mr. HUBERT. In any case, this Exhibit 5111, you think, is the report +that you were speaking of a little while ago in your deposition? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes; that is the only report that I made to Detective +Eberhardt. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you thought you had signed it. + +Mr. HOLLY. I thought I signed that. That is the one right there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5111 is the one you were talking about? + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you had the recollection of having signed it? Of +course, here we have only a copy of it. + +Mr. HOLLY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did sign the original, but it doesn't +indicate that there was a space for you to sign. + +Mr. HOLLY. I was thinking I signed it. + +Mr. HUBERT. There was no other report than this one here? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; no other report other than the one that I talked to +Lieutenant Revill about. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other statements or comments to make +concerning any part of this? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; I have covered it pretty well, I think. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any others than this +deposition today? + +Mr. HOLLY. No, sir; this is the first time I ever met or seen you. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any other members of the +President's Commission, do you know? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; other than the FBI, two FBI officers. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about persons who identified themselves as +members of the Commission? + +Mr. HOLLY. No; none whatsoever. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much. + +Mr. HOLLY. That is all right. I am glad to be of service. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF HARRY M. KRISS + +The testimony of Harry M. Kriss was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 26, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harry Kriss. Mr. Kriss, my +name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general +counsel of the Commission. Under the provisions of the President's +Executive Order 11130, dated November 23, 1963, and the joint +resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by +the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint +resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Kriss, the nature of the +inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death +of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general +inquiry. Now, Mr. Kriss, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a +general request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff +of the President's Commission to Mr. J. E. Curry, the chief of police, +who was asked to make all of you gentlemen available to us. Under the +rules adopted by the Commission, however, you were entitled to a 3-day +written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules +also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he wishes to +do so. Are you willing to waive? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes; I will waive. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand so as to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to +tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. KRISS. So help me God. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name? + +Mr. KRISS. Harry M. Kriss [spelling] K-r-i-s-s. M is the initial. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please? Your age? + +Mr. KRISS. Fifty-three. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir? + +Mr. KRISS. 6906 Merrilee Lane. + +Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas? + +Mr. KRISS. In Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are a reserve officer, are you not? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; in Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation in general? + +Mr. KRISS. Occupation in general, manufacturer of sportswear, men's, +and manufacturer of neckwear. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Dallas? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been in the reserve? + +Mr. KRISS. Eleven years. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, were you called on November 24, 1963? + +Mr. KRISS. Well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the Sunday after the President's death. + +Mr. KRISS. That is Sunday after--yes, sir; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were at home at the time? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; I was getting ready to play golf. Four or five +more minutes and I'd have been gone. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were called to report? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And when you did report, did you report in uniform? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes; surely I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, Mr. Kriss, I am showing you here two documents which +concern what you have already had to say about the matter. + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I think we can save considerable time if I'll ask you +to identify these and comment upon them, but before doing so I wish to +identify them as exhibits so that we can speak of them in those terms. + +Mr. KRISS. Okay. + +Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, on the letter, or copy of a letter dated +November 26, addressed to J. E. Curry, the original of which, I +suppose, was signed by you, I am marking it for identification, +"Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5106. Deposition of H. M. +Kriss." I will put "reserve officer." I will sign my name to that, +and I note that this Exhibit 5106 consists of one page only. The next +document is a report of an interview made December 3, 1963, with you by +the FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin and it consists of two pages. I am +marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5107. +Deposition of H. M. Kriss." Or, rather, "reserve officer", and I am +signing my name on the first page and placing my initials in the lower +right-hand corner of the second page. Now, Mr. Kriss, you have read +both of these statements I believe? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are these substantially correct? + +Mr. KRISS. Substantially; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any additions to add to it? + +Mr. KRISS. I can't think of any. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything that you see that is wrong that should +be deleted? + +Mr. KRISS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, in order that your testimony just now +concerning these documents may be tied into the particular documents, +I would like you to sign them so that the record will show that we are +both talking about the same documents. + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just write underneath my signature. + +Mr. KRISS. Well, do you have a pen? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you can use that one. Just initial the second page. +Now, sign--initial the second page on the FBI report. + +Mr. KRISS. You want me to sign? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; just sign under my name. I think there is only one +point I want to clarify about this matter. Are you familiar with the +chart or map made by the Dallas Police Department of the basement area +showing the positions of all the various officers? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, in the report that they have filed, the documents +relative to your statements, you are identified in that report as No. +61. As a matter of fact, attached to the map was a key, showing that 61 +was H. M. Kriss. It shows, however, that you were standing, at the time +of the shooting, in the north part, I suppose it would be, on the Main +Street ramp? + +Mr. KRISS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I notice that your statement says it was different. + +Mr. KRISS. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Even so, to clarify that, I would like you to see what this +is so you can see what I am talking about. See your number on this key. +This 61? + +Mr. KRISS. 61; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you get to this map--see 61 on the Main Street +ramp? + +Mr. KRISS. That is the Main Street ramp. That is where I was after--it +was--that is where I placed myself when they said, "Don't let anyone +out of the basement." + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. That will clarify it then. + +Mr. KRISS. You can see it on television. I saw it the other night again +where I ran across and when they said, "Don't let anyone out of the +basement," that is where I placed myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that is going to explain that, and in order to make +it a matter of record, I am going to ask you to show your position +before the shooting, and your position after the shooting on this map, +but first let me identify this map by marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March +26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5108, deposition of H. M. Kriss." I am signing +my name to it, and I will ask you for the purposes of identification +so that the record will show that we are both talking about the same +document, to put your name right there. Now, I would like you to look +over there at the mockup. And on the mockup, determine where you were. + +Mr. KRISS. That is Main Street--I was right here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see if we can find that on the map and mark it. +It would be right here, wouldn't it? + +Mr. KRISS. No; right over here [indicating]. Wouldn't it? No, here is +the--wait a minute. Wait a minute. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, we get at this---- + +Mr. KRISS. This is Main---- + +Mr. HUBERT. And this is Commerce Street. + +Mr. KRISS. Right. That is the jail right---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. KRISS. Here is the position right here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. On the Commerce Street like that? I am drawing a circle---- + +Mr. KRISS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I am drawing the line out then and I am putting, +"Position of H. M. Kriss." + +Mr. KRISS. The four---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting? + +Mr. KRISS. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I noticed on the large map that was attached to the +Dallas report that--and to the key to the personnel, your number was +61, and that they had 61 in the position I am now marking in a circle. +Can you tell me what the explanation of that is, sir? + +Mr. KRISS. That is confusing, because after the shooting they hollered, +"Don't let anyone out of the basement." And I saw the truck over here, +so I ran over here and placed myself right here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where this circle is. + +Mr. KRISS. Yes, right; that is where I placed myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are at this position, but it was after +the shooting instead of before? + +Mr. KRISS. After the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, I am placing a circle of your position. + +Mr. KRISS. After the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. And drawing a line from it and writing "Position of H. M. +Kriss after the shooting." + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Right. + +Mr. KRISS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, about how long had you been in the position you were +in before the shooting and until the shooting? + +Mr. KRISS. Well, we had been kind of walking over here watching the +door over---- + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "over here"---- + +Mr. KRISS. In the garage area. I had already put some men out here on +both sides. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had already put some men out here on both sides? Out on +the Commerce Street side? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; and on the Main. + +Mr. HUBERT. And on the Main Street side. + +Mr. KRISS. And we were told by the officers to move all the press back +over this way, keep them on this side [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you see, you have to explain what you mean by "this +side," because---- + +Mr. KRISS. Well, that is---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Because someone reading a transcript of it later won't be +able to tell. + +Mr. KRISS. That is the west side then. + +Mr. HUBERT. West side of the ramp, is that correct? + +Mr. KRISS. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you to say that you had been instructed to +keep all the press---- + +Mr. KRISS. Yes, go ahead. + +Mr. HUBERT. Out of the ramp area? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes; against the west wall only, all the rail--the area in +here, to keep the press back over here and [indicating]---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Against the rail, or on the side? + +Mr. KRISS. No; against the rail. If I just leave through--they were +trying to clear this up right in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been in the position that we have marked +"Position prior to shooting"? + +Mr. KRISS. Possibly 10 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Ten or fifteen minutes? + +Mr. KRISS. Something along there. Prior to that time, is when I had +been walking right back in here [indicating]. Yes; and standing, I +believe standing right over in here is where I placed myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will put another circle and I am going to mark +that "Position of H. M. Kriss prior"---- + +Mr. KRISS. "To---- + +Mr. HUBERT. "Shooting." + +Mr. KRISS. Before being told to move the press on this side. + +Mr. HUBERT. "Position of H. M. Kriss prior"-- + +Now, we have not--this is the west side. That is the east side--"of +being told to keep the press back." In other words, your first position +was really the position---- + +Mr. KRISS. Right here. That is it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's put a number--No. "1" in it. That was your +first position? + +Mr. KRISS. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your second position---- + +Mr. KRISS. No. "2." + +Mr. HUBERT. As No. "2." "Position of H. M. Kriss prior to shooting." +And No. "3" is your position after the shooting? Right? + +Mr. KRISS. That's it; sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you had been in position No. "2" for +about 10 minutes or so before they brought Oswald down? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you facing then? + +Mr. KRISS. This way [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Facing north? + +Mr. KRISS. Facing north; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you see anything up there? + +Mr. KRISS. No; all I saw was officers standing right at the head of +this--this officer right there. With a shotgun. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was? + +Mr. KRISS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. But he is a regular? + +Mr. KRISS. No reserves were armed. We are all unarmed. Unarmed and we +don't carry arms. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, in looking from your position No. "2." Up the ramp, +were there--can you tell us whether there were a lot of people standing +in that area? + +Mr. KRISS. No; I didn't. I was just--had lots of people right in this +area, right about here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about that northeast position? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; all this area right in here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. And where the down ramp going---- + +Mr. KRISS. All this area right on this side. That is where they were +all standing. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can't say "this side," sir. While I understand +it---- + +Mr. KRISS. The east side. The east side, excuse me. The east side. I +keep forgetting she's taking it down. + +Mr. HUBERT. They were all standing up against the rail? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Right by the television cameras. + +Mr. KRISS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct? + +Mr. KRISS. Right; that's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then the ramp going from the basement down into the +parking area? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes; right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And further along toward Commerce Street along that rail? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes; there was a truck there, large truck here and another +car pulled up right behind the armored truck. + +Mr. HUBERT. Both on the Commerce Street side? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Directing your attention again to whether there were a +great number of people in an area that I am now marking with an oblong +and going to call it "area A," and---- + +Mr. KRISS. That area there? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well---- + +Mr. KRISS. Well, I couldn't be for sure, but it seemed that large +amount people all around there and in here, too. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice an automobile being driven out of there just +a few seconds or minutes---- + +Mr. KRISS. I can't recall that. I have tried to remember that and I +can't recall that. No; I can't recall that. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall it? + +Mr. KRISS. No; I can remember something vaguely. I can remember doing +something--they were moving a car, but I was mostly interested in +watching the press, keeping everyone here. That was my job, keeping +everyone on the east side of the rail. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand, and you were looking more at the press than +at the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. KRISS. That's correct; that's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this man when he came down? + +Mr. KRISS. No; I didn't see--all I saw was just a blur right in here +[indicating]. I didn't see--I was like everyone else, I was waiting +here, and Oswald was right here [indicating], and that is where I +looked at Oswald, and I was a curiosity seeker, I think, when I should +have been watching--I was--learned my lesson. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well---- + +Mr. KRISS. Like everyone else, everyone else was watching that. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, your attention was on Oswald? + +Mr. KRISS. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you saw a blur? + +Mr. KRISS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize the man at all? + +Mr. KRISS. Right then? No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you known Ruby? + +Mr. KRISS. Known, of him, saw him before in the papers and everything. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after that? + +Mr. KRISS. Well, they said--somebody said, "Don't let anyone out of +the basement." And I ran across here and I thought I saw one of the +captains, Arnett, and I saw him going down, and he was in the confusion +and in that confusion here, and ran over there and saw that everything +was all right, and they said, "Don't let anyone out." + +Mr. HUBERT. And you positioned yourself right in the middle? + +Mr. KRISS. Positioned myself in the middle and no one passed +thereafter. That I can assure you of. That is the only thing I do know +for sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Let me see if there's anything else. + +All right. Is there anything else you would like to add that is not +contained in the statement, or in your testimony today? + +Mr. KRISS. No, sir; I just don't know a thing. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right for now. Have you ever been interviewed by any +member of the Commission's staff prior to today? + +Mr. KRISS. No; only the FBI is all. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you have never been interviewed by me prior to this +deposition today? + +Mr. KRISS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that is all and I certainly thank +you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ROY LEE LOWERY + +The testimony of Roy Lee Lowery was taken at 11 a.m., on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective R. L. Lowery, Dallas +Police Department. Mr. Lowery, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a +member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the +provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, +a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure +adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order +in the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn +deposition from you, Mr. Lowery. I state to you now that the general +nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report +upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and +the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, Mr. +Lowery, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you +know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may +know about the death and the general inquiry. + +Now, Mr. Lowery, you have appeared here today by virtue of a request +made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel +on the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted +by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice by the +Commission prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules +adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive that +3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Do you wish to waive the 3-day +notice? + +Mr. LOWERY. I will waive it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to +tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. LOWERY. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name? + +Mr. LOWERY. Roy Lee Lowery. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your age? + +Mr. LOWERY. Thirty-two years of age. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? + +Mr. LOWERY. 838 West Church in Grand Prairie. + +Mr. HUBERT. Texas? + +Mr. LOWERY. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that just outside of the Dallas area? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; it is in Dallas County. It is on the west side. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir? + +Mr. LOWERY. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied? + +Mr. LOWERY. Oh, approximately 9-1/2 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. What specific position do you hold in the detective +department? + +Mr. LOWERY. I'm a detective in the juvenile bureau of the police +department, criminal division. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? + +Mr. LOWERY. Capt. Frank Martin. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is next up the line? + +Mr. LOWERY. I believe it is M. W. Stevenson. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then Chief Batchelor and Chief Curry? + +Mr. LOWERY. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have read---- + +Mr. LOWERY. Now, if you will start with Mr. Bookhout's---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this report in. + +Mr. LOWERY. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you have read three documents which I have +previously handed you to read, and I want to mark the three of them now +for identification, and then we will talk about each one. + +Mr. LOWERY. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a letter, or a copy of a letter consisting of +one page, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, indicating +that the original may be signed by you, and I am identifying it as +follows, by marking upon it, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. +5081. Deposition of R. L. Lowery, and signing my name below it." As to +the second document, consisting of two pages, and purporting to be a +report of an interview by--of you by FBI Agent Bookhout, on November +24, 1963, and I am marking that document along the right margin as +follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5082. Deposition of R. +L. Lowery." I am signing my name below that on the first page of that +document, and placing my initials in the right-hand lower corner on +the second page of that document. Finally a document purporting to be +a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on +December 23, 1963, consisting of five pages, marking the first page +as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5083, +deposition of R. L. Lowery," and I am signing my name on the first +page, and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the +second page, third page, fourth page and the fifth page. + +Now, sir, I hand you the exhibit which has been marked 5081, being the +letter to Chief Curry, and ask you if that letter is correct insofar as +it goes? Or do you have any other comments to make about it? + +Mr. LOWERY. This is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I hand you an exhibit identified as 5082, consisting +of two pages, and ask you if you have read it, and whether you have any +comments to make about it? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; I read it. Now, as to this one there is some +changes to be made. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I suggest you do this. If you want to +make a change in a sentence, read that sentence indicating that you +are beginning to read by using the word "quote", and when you get to +the end of the sentence, "unquote". Then make your comment about the +sentence, or if you have the whole paragraph you may do it that way. + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, first one, quote Lowery---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That is on the first page, is it not? What paragraph? + +Mr. LOWERY. First page, first paragraph interview by Mr. Bookhout of +the FBI. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are going to start reading, so say "quote". + +Mr. LOWERY. Quote, "Lowery stated he and several others grabbed Ruby," +unquote. Now, I didn't--I didn't grab Ruby. Several other officers did. +I didn't touch Ruby at all at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell this man---- + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is incorrect? + +Mr. LOWERY. I do not recall--no, I touched Ruby later, but not at this +particular time. This is the time where Ruby was disarmed and taken +into the jail office. I didn't touch him at all at that particular +time. There were several other officers around him. I couldn't even get +to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you touch him? + +Mr. LOWERY. He was carried into the jail office by several officers, +and after coming into the jail office by myself, I held one of Jack +Ruby's legs while he was given a quick shakedown before he was taken +upstairs. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you any other comments to make about that +Exhibit 5082? + +Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe that there is any others on this one. Yes. +On Page 2, of this same exhibit--let's see, where could I start. Now, +would you like me to start in the middle of a sentence, or just read +the whole sentence even though it is several lines? + +Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you'd better read the whole sentence, I think it +will be clearer. + +Mr. LOWERY. All right, quote "He stated this camera was never put +into operation, the cable was never connected and the blank cap was +never taken off. Lowery stated that the following--that following the +shooting, the action of the two cameramen who had pushed the camera +from the area was brought to the attention of Lt. R. E. Swain, and they +were taken to homicide and robbery bureau for questioning." unquote. +The facts are, are that the cameramen were not taken to homicide and +robbery bureau. I accompanied those men up on the third floor where +they were allowed to set up their long range camera, and I stayed with +those people for approximately an hour to an hour and a half until I +contacted Lieutenant Baker in the homicide division and told him the +reason that I was with those people, and he advised me to take their +names and addresses, business address and business phone, and home +phone number, and that it wouldn't be necessary to stay with them any +longer. I took this information and turned it in to Lieutenant Baker +and released the cameramen. + +Mr. HUBERT. Anything else you wish to say about it? + +Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe there is any other. + +Mr. HUBERT. 5082. Anything other about 5082? + +Mr. LOWERY. No, that is--nothing further. + +Mr. HUBERT. As to Exhibit 5083, I ask you if it is correct, do you have +any changes or suggestions, or comments to make about it? + +Mr. LOWERY. On page 1, paragraph 2--let's see, "The contingent from +the juvenile bureau consisted of Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, +Detective W. J. Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles +Goolsby, Patrolman W. J. Harrison and myself, Lowery." + +The facts are that Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, Detective W. J. +Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles Goolsby went from +the third--juvenile bureau, on the third floor, room 314, city hall, +down the elevator to the basement of the city hall. As we came off +the elevator we met Patrolman W. J. Harrison coming up the hall from +the police locker room, and he accompanied us to the location in the +basement where Oswald was shot. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "city hall," you mean the police department +building, not the municipal building? + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. Police and courts building. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, any further comments about Exhibit 5083? + +Mr. LOWERY. Now, I have one change here. + +Mr. HUBERT. On what page? + +Mr. LOWERY. On page 2, paragraph 3. Now, this is the only thing, the +only change is--I don't know whether it is necessary for me to read the +whole thing--is the TV station WPAB. In this report it says, "WPAB". + +Mr. HUBERT. It is a typographical---- + +Mr. LOWERY. It is wrong. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, that's correct, and now, I don't think we have to do +anything more about it. + +Mr. LOWERY. All right. Then, on page 2 in--let's see, this page 2, +paragraph 4, and this will carry on to paragraph 1 of page 3. All +right. "This police car had its red lights on, flashing, and there were +two or three officers in the car." + +That is a mistake. The facts are is this police car was a marked squad +car, occupied by one officer, and that officer was Officer O'Dell, who +is a patrolman, and as far as I can say, he was alone in the car. Only +person in the car. All right. On page 3, this also is in paragraph 1. +"He did not know who this individual was until his hat fell off in the +melee and he saw it was Jack Ruby whom he has known for several years." + +The facts are that at approximately the same instant the shot was +fired, or within a fraction of a second thereafter, I did recognize the +person firing the shot as being Jack Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. The correction there being that you recognized him before +his hat fell off, is that what you mean? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, I couldn't definitely say that I recognized him +before his hat fell off. I don't---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him before he fired the shot? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, it seemed like to me at the same time. Now, of +course, this happened directly in front of me, closer than--about half +of the distance between the two of us and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness indicates the distance +that I would judge to be approximately 6 feet. + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, he would be within 4 feet, I think. That Jack Ruby +would be within 4 feet of me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the distance that I judge is 6 feet, you +think is about two-thirds of that distance? + +Mr. LOWERY. That's right. Three to 4 feet, and I couldn't say that Jack +Ruby's hat--I couldn't say whether the hat had fallen off or not. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +All right. Now, you have looked over the other pages of 5083, and +handed it back to me, are there any corrections or deletions or--wrong +statements or anything that you would like to comment upon? + +Mr. LOWERY. Best I can remember the rest of it is fairly accurate. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to have you identify a chart of the basement +area of the Dallas Police Department and I am marking upon it for the +purposes of identification the words, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. +Exhibit Number 5084, deposition of R. L. Lowery." And I am signing my +name below that, and just for the purposes of identification, I wish +you would sign your name below it, too, below my name. + +I would like you to look at the mockup here and--if you will come over +here with me, we can put the chart and the mockup together, and I would +like you to--by using the mockup, point to the place on the mockup +where you were standing and then we will mark it on the map. + +Mr. LOWERY. All right. I was standing exactly at this point here +[indicating]. In fact, the corner--I was leaning back against the +corner, and I could feel it exactly between my shoulder blades. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I am marking a circle right here as the +point that you are talking about? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; and that would be on the southwest corner. + +Mr. HUBERT. Southwest corner of the intersection of the jail corridor +and the ramp? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle around the position you have +indicated and I am writing the words, "Position of R. L. Lowery at the +time of the shooting," which I am also placing in a circle. Now, is +that correct, sir? That was your position? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long had you been in that position prior to the +shooting? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, I couldn't definitely say how long I had been at +that one particular position. I had been in this area for, oh, from +approximately 10 minutes. I had been within a few feet of there. I just +took this position a few minutes, and--or maybe a couple of minutes +before the shooting actually took place, but I was standing within a +few feet of that point. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the moment of the shooting, you were in precisely that +position? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you would judge you had been in that position about 2 +minutes? + +Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe it would be any more than 2 minutes' time. +I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were facing then in the general direction of the TV +cameras? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, when the actual shooting took place. + +Mr. HUBERT. And the time before that? I want to get both? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, I looked both ways, both left and right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you if you scanned the crowd? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, in the direction of the TV cameras, the lights were +so bright I couldn't have seen any people in the crowd. I could see +forms, but I couldn't--I wouldn't be able to---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a detective, W. J. Harrison, I think he is +called "Blackie" Harrison? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he in your line of vision? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you see him? + +Mr. LOWERY. I saw him shortly before the shooting. Now, at the time +all the TV lights and everything were turned on, I don't recall seeing +"Blackie" from that time until the shot was actually fired. + +Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would use the mockup first to place the +position, approximately, of Harrison, the last time you were able to +see him, and then translate that by placing a circle on the map that---- + +Mr. LOWERY. Let me get squared away here. He would have been in +this general area. I couldn't say in relation to this wall--to this +guardrail. I would think they would have been approximately---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am going to mark a line, which I am labeling as +line "A, B," and then I want to ask you to take the pen and put the +approximate position of Harrison the last time you saw him. + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, I would say about this [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have made an "X," and I am putting a circle about +the "X," and drawing a line out and writing the following, "position of +W. J. Harrison--" the approximate position, is that what you mean? + +Mr. LOWERY. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. "The approximate position of W. J. Harrison when last seen +by Lowery." + +Mr. LOWERY. Before---- + +Mr. HUBERT. "Before the shooting." Right? + +Mr. LOWERY. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am encircling that language and connecting it with the +position marked "X." Now, can you give us any estimation of how long +before the shooting was the last time that you saw Harrison? + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I wouldn't make an attempt, because the time in +my estimation I found that they were so far off that I couldn't--I +just don't have any idea. It couldn't have been more than a couple of +minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; you did not see him after that, though, did you? + +Mr. LOWERY. I saw him after the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after that position? + +Mr. LOWERY. As far as I remember, no, sir; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then you attribute your failure to see him to the fact that +the TV lights had been turned on after that? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, the TV lights were so bright. I don't remember seeing +Harrison, but I don't say that I was completely blinded by the TV +lights. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come up from the crowd? + +Mr. LOWERY. Sir? + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come out from the crowd? + +Mr. LOWERY. The first time I saw Ruby he was lunging, and almost +instantaneously the shot was fired, and I couldn't--I couldn't say that +I saw him come from the crowd. I saw a blur, and about this time the +shot was fired, and there is Jack Ruby right in front of me. + +Mr. HUBERT. What side of "Blackie" Harrison did Ruby come from with +relation to Harrison himself? + +Mr. LOWERY. I couldn't say which side that---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't know whether it was on Harrison's left side or +right side? + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the automobile that went up the ramp just +before the shooting that had a flashing red light on top of it and two +or three officers in the car? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, now, that is one of the statements we changed. I +remember the marked squad car being driven with Officer O'Dell going +up the--oh, we call it the north ramp, the wrong way, which--with his +red lights on, but this car only had the one officer in it, the best I +remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Rio Pierce? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him drive a car up that ramp? + +Mr. LOWERY. I will say that between the time that Officer O'Dell went +up the north ramp, I couldn't tell you in minutes or seconds how +much time had elapsed, but there was a plain car, and I believe it +was driven by Lieutenant Pierce, and he had a couple or three other +officers. I couldn't say exactly how many officers were in the car, but +it did go up the ramp with red lights on going up the north ramp to the +Main Street entrance. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was after O'Dell had passed? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; best I remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that the statement--I would ask you to have another +look at the statement, which is Exhibit 5083, and ask you if it is +the statement that you previously corrected so that it would refer to +O'Dell. Isn't it, in fact, correct insofar as it would deal with what +you have just said about Pierce? + +Mr. LOWERY. Now, here is the statement we changed. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see your point, and that is that the O'Dell car did not +have a red light on it? + +Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir, it did, but the O'Dell was--the O'Dell car was a +marked squad car, and that was the change that we made. This O'Dell's +car was the first car to go up the ramp, and he was--there was only one +person in the car. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, then, there was another marked car---- + +Mr. LOWERY. There was an unmarked car. + +Mr. HUBERT. There was an unmarked car, and that is Pierce? + +Mr. LOWERY. Pierce was the unmarked car, and he had another officer in +the car. I couldn't tell you who, or how many, or who they were. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was the time interval between the O'Dell car movements +up that ramp and Pierce's movements up that ramp? + +Mr. LOWERY. I couldn't--I couldn't--I'd be afraid to say exactly, but +probably wasn't more than a minute in that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow the car, or the Pierce car up the ramp with +your eyes, I mean? + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; if you will notice this [indicating] there is +an offset here, and from my position here I would only see a short +distance up the ramp, and there is also a drop down, air-conditioning +and central-heating unit back in here that I would--if my view hadn't +been obstructed by the line of people on that side I wouldn't have +been able to see more than a few feet up the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody coming down? I understand from your +statement that you could not have seen their faces as they came down +the ramp because of the obstruction, but you could have seen feet, +couldn't you? + +Mr. LOWERY. I wouldn't be able to. I didn't see anybody come down the +ramp. They could have possibly gotten down there without me seeing +them, but I didn't see any feet, or any person come down the ramp at +all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody climb over the rails from the parking +area into the ramp on the Main Street side? + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; not that I remember. I couldn't see--couldn't see +the rail from my position for the line of photographers and officers +and the TV cameras and lights. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby thereafter? + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him after that? + +Mr. LOWERY. Which point? + +Mr. HUBERT. After the shooting? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, as I told you, the officers took him into the jail +office, and I went into the jail office, and they were in the process +of searching him, and he was struggling, and I held one--I believe his +left leg. Had him down on his back, and I held his left leg while he +was doing a quick shakedown and then he was taken to the elevator and +upstairs, and that is the last that I saw of him. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Detective Lowery, have you anything else that +you would like to add that you have not stated, or is not contained in +these several exhibits we have identified here today? + +Mr. LOWERY. Well, I think they--I haven't been through the police +report, the investigation in the police department made by Captain +Jones. I believe that they had--a little more in detail. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are referring, I think, to a document contained in +Commission's report 81-A, that is page 66, consisting of two pages and +entitled, "Investigation of Operational Security Involving the transfer +of Lee Harvey Oswald, November 24, 1963," which was supplied to the +Commission by the Dallas Police Department through the attorney general. + +Since I do not have an extra copy of this document, I am going to +allow it to remain in the volume, but I am going to mark it for +identification as I have marked the others, and that is, "Dallas, +Texas, March 25, 1964, exhibit Number 5085," which purports to be an +interview of you. Now wait--I'll finish the identification, 5085, +deposition of R. L. Lowery, signing my name on the first sheet and +placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second sheet. +This is an interview of R. L. Lowery, November 29, 1963, by Lt. P. G. +McCaghren and Lt. C. C. Wallace. I think you have read this document, +have you not, sir? + +Mr. LOWERY. Let me brush through it right quick. I don't---- + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Referring to Exhibit 5085, do you now say that +it is correct? Are there any changes you want to suggest, modifications +to make? + +Mr. LOWERY. It is correct, as far as I know. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Anything else you want to say? + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I believe that's---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed prior to the taking of the +deposition by any member of the Commission? I don't think there was any +interview between you and me before. + +Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF CAPT. FRANK M. MARTIN + +The testimony of Capt. Frank Martin was taken at 2 p.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Frank M. Martin of the +juvenile division, Dallas Police Department. Captain Martin, my name +is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general +counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President +Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated +November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the +rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the +Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized by the +Commission to take the sworn deposition of you, Captain Martin. + +Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. HUBERT. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's +inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to +the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death +of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Captain Martin, the nature +of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death +of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the +general inquiry. + +Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. HUBERT. No; Captain Martin, do--you have appeared here by virtue +of a general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the +President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry. Under the +rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written +notice prior to the taking of this deposition, that the rules adopted +by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day +written notice. Do you wish to waive that notice? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you rise and raise your right hand and I will +now swear you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Captain MARTIN. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, Captain Martin. + +Captain MARTIN. Frank M. Martin. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please? + +Captain MARTIN. Fifty-four. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live? + +Captain MARTIN. 906 West Five Mile Parkway. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation today, and how long have you been +in that occupation? + +Captain MARTIN. I am a police officer in Dallas. I have been in it for +30 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your rank is what now? + +Captain MARTIN. Captain. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of captain, sir? + +Captain MARTIN. Since 1951, about 13 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. What are your particular duties with the Dallas Police +Department? + +Captain MARTIN. I have charge of the juvenile bureau. We handle all +juvenile affairs. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, captain, I have two documents here which I am going to +mark for identification and then I will question you concerning them. +Now, I am marking this document March 24, 1963, addressed to Chief J. +E. Curry, the original of which apparently was signed by you. Marking +this as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. +5058, deposition of Capt. F. M. Martin, and I'm signing my name to +that document which consists of one page, and I'm also marking another +document which apparently is the report of an interview of you, Captain +Martin, by Special Agents of the FBI, to wit: Alvin J. Zimmerman and +Joseph G. Peden, on December 2nd, 1963." The document consists of one +full page, marking the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, +March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5059. Deposition of F. M. Martin." Signing +my name on that. I am placing my initials on the second page of that +document in the lower right-hand corner. Now, Captain, I believe that +you have only recently, that is to say, about 2 or 3 hours ago, had +occasion to read both of these documents? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. 5058 and 5059. I now ask you if those documents represent +the truth, or whether there are any modifications or deletions or +additions---- + +Captain MARTIN. Well, of course, there---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That you would like to make in it? + +Captain MARTIN. This "Miller," they have there once, where it should be +my name in the first paragraph. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you are speaking of the third line, the first page +of Exhibit 5059, where the second sentence starts, "Capt. Miller," and +apparently the sense of it would be, that since they are speaking of +you, it would be "Capt. Martin," is that right? + +Captain MARTIN. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am, therefore, going to circle the word "Miller," +and--with a circle, and an extension line indicates that it had been +changed by putting my initial on it, and I am going to ask you at a +later time to put your initials on it, too. + +Captain MARTIN. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, that document speaks the truth, as far as +you know? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. There is one area in there in the ramps that I +don't quite understand. Did he mean the ramp, or does he mean the door +into the building, the corridor door or---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, I think you are speaking of the second to the +last sentence in the last paragraph on the first page of Exhibit 5059, +sentence which reads as follows, to wit: "He advised that auxiliary +officers were stationed at each ramp." + +Captain MARTIN. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. "And that to his north, this was the only entrance to the +compound which Ruby could have used." Now, what is it that you would +like to say about that, sir? + +Captain MARTIN. There is a double door going into this basement at the +city hall which I wouldn't consider a ramp. They never considered it +that. I don't know, but it is more or less a corridor, or hallway going +into the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. There is a corridor, you say, that leads from the jail +building into the basement area? + +Captain MARTIN. It is from the garage area into the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. + +Captain MARTIN. I don't know---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, did you make any statement to them about +auxiliary officers being stationed at any place? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. Yes; I told them that there were, but I meant the +two ramps coming into the basement from the outside. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. In other words, what you want to clarify about this +is that what you meant when you made reference to auxiliary officers +and ramps, that you meant the entrances or exits at the street level of +the Main and Commerce ramps? + +Captain MARTIN. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And, you did not have reference to the officers at other +passageways? + +Captain MARTIN. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. I might ask you in connection with that same +thing, what do you mean by the word "compound"? + +Captain MARTIN. I didn't use that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Didn't use that word? + +Captain MARTIN. No; that must be theirs. + +Mr. HUBERT. What do you understand there, because the report is that +you said "That this was the only entrance into the compound which Ruby +could have used"? + +Captain MARTIN. I didn't use that word. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you express any such thought and if so, what were +you referring to? + +Captain MARTIN. Of course, what they are referring to by "compound," is +the area right outside the jail door there. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean what is commonly called the basement area +including the parking area, the garage area, the two ramps and the +space between the two ramps? + +Captain MARTIN. I am sure it is, because I didn't use the word +"compound." + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's look at it this way, would this statement be correct +then if we changed the word "compound," to be defined as the general +basement area as I just defined it a moment ago? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, then it would be correct to say that, to your +knowledge, the two ramps, to wit, those--the one leading from Main +Street, and the one leading from Commerce Street were the only +entrances to the basement area, as we defined it a moment ago, that +Ruby could have used? + +Captain MARTIN. More that he could have used, yes; but, of course, +you---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, this says the only entrance, and if you wish to +qualify it---- + +Captain MARTIN. We were speaking of these two ramps. And we were +talking of him coming down into the basement off the street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. + +Captain MARTIN. Of course, you have got the city hall. I mean, the +police and courts building, and also got the city hall. He could have +been--come down the elevator over here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. I take it you want to modify this statement then so that +your present opinion is that it is not correct to say that the Main +Street and the Commerce Street entrances were the only mode of entrance +to the basement? + +Captain MARTIN. No, no; there are other ways to get in there. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean. What other ways are there? + +Captain MARTIN. There is--coming from the police and courts building to +the basement, or you can come down the elevator in the city hall into +the garage area and come across, but as far as I remember, that wasn't +brought up. They were speaking of those two ramps. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this: Was the explanation that we have +now put into the record, are you satisfied that this document, 5059, is +substantially correct? + +Captain MARTIN. I don't know exactly what he means here by "He knew of +no unauthorized persons to be in the basement." + +I don't know what---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, sir; if you wish to modify that in any way so that we +now know what you are thinking is about it. I ask you to please do so. + +Captain MARTIN. I don't quite--that is not very clear to me, "He knew +of no unauthorized persons permitted to be in the basement." + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me get at it this way. Do you know what security +precautions were being taken to be sure that unauthorized persons were +not in the basement? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes; they had men at the top of both of the outside +ramps, and I presume that they were supposed to stop anybody coming in, +but apparently they didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know what was meant by "unauthorized persons"? + +Captain MARTIN. Well, there were so many people down there. The press, +TV, radio. Of course, all had been checked before they came in. I don't +know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any specific instructions, yourself, as to +checking? + +Captain MARTIN. I didn't receive any instructions at all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know, or was there anything told to you whereby you +could recognize an unauthorized person? + +Captain MARTIN. Nothing was said. Of course, if I'd had seen Jack Ruby, +I'd have known him. I've known him for a long time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the people have identifying badges or anything +of that sort? + +Captain MARTIN. No; so far as I know, they didn't. In fact, there was +nothing--there was nothing said about who was to be down there and who +wasn't. There was nothing said about anything--I didn't know anything +about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, when did you come on duty that day, sir? + +Captain MARTIN. That morning, it was my Sunday to work, 8:15. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the planning of the +movement of Oswald? + +Captain MARTIN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any knowledge as to what the plan was? + +Captain MARTIN. I knew nothing. I just went down there. That's about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you ordered to go down? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. By whom? + +Captain MARTIN. Chief Stevenson. + +Mr. HUBERT. About what time, sir? + +Captain MARTIN. Oh, I would say between 10:30 and 10:45, somewhere +around there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson is your immediate superior? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he instruct you to do? + +Captain MARTIN. Just to go to the basement is all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any specific duty to perform? + +Captain MARTIN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, what time was it? + +Captain MARTIN. I don't recall. It was a few minutes before 11, I +believe. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do? + +Captain MARTIN. Well, I just got out there by the ramp and just stood +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stand before the actual shooting of Oswald? + +Captain MARTIN. I imagine I was down there 20 or 25 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark a chart. A chart of the basement area, +as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, Exhibit 5060, deposition +of Capt. F. M. Martin." Signing it with my own name. Now, I would like +to ask you, Captain, if you could sign the other three documents just +below my name, that is to say, 5058 and 5059. Please initial a second +page of 5058, below my initial and then sign 5059. I will ask you to +sign for the purposes of identification under my name the document +5060. Now, Captain, it may be that you will want to look at this mockup +here of the basement area, and then we will enter it on the map, but if +you could show us where you stood on the mockup here, from the time you +got down there at about 11, I think, until Oswald was shot, and you say +you did not move around? + +Captain MARTIN. I wasn't in one spot all this time, but when he came +out, of course, there was a car sitting right--I guess the back end of +the car was coming to about here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, you are showing the back end of the car, +and I am going to, with a pen draw in on Exhibit 5060, the approximate +position of the back end of the car as you demonstrated it. + +Captain MARTIN. Be about right there [indicating]. No; not that far. +About right here. + +Mr. HUBERT. About like so? + +Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have drawn on the map a rough image of a car, by +using simply a square, and I have marked it "car". Now, would you take +the pen, sir, and--your own pen, and mark by the use of a circle your +position with reference to the car at the time of the shooting. Now, +let's get that. + +Captain MARTIN. I was about right here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you just write in your own handwriting there, +"The position of F. M. Martin at the time of the shooting." Now, +Captain, you think you--you said you had been in that general basement +area for about 20 minutes prior to the shooting? + +Captain MARTIN. I would say that. I don't know for sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody you knew? + +Captain MARTIN. Well, most of the press I knew. No one outside of the +press that I knew. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did know Jack Ruby, I understand? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes; I knew Jack. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I think, that is already in report? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes; it is in here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him? + +Captain MARTIN. Not until after the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you looking at any time in the direction where you +subsequently learned or believed he came from? + +Captain MARTIN. No; not directly. Of course--Where is your map? I +couldn't have seen him from--if I would have been, because there were +people all along here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, to your right, is that right? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes; across here [indicating]. And all up in here +[indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. There were people between--on your right, between you +and---- + +Captain MARTIN. And---- + +Mr. HUBERT. And the Main Street ramp? + +Captain MARTIN. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many people were there in that general area? + +Captain MARTIN. I just would have to make an estimate. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's right. + +Captain MARTIN. I would say between me and where he was, there was 8 or +10 people. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark off an area in the Main Street ramp by +just drawing with a pencil a square, and putting, "Area A," in it and +I will ask you if you can tell us in the "Area A," marked on this map, +what were the conditions with respect to the number of people and so +forth. Not exactly. I know you didn't count heads, but just how crowded +were the conditions? + +Captain MARTIN. As well as I can remember there weren't too many people +up in that--up that far. There were 2 or 3 cars parked in the ramp +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean in the Main Street ramp? + +Captain MARTIN. Now, wait a minute. You have got Main Street---- + +Mr. HUBERT. I marked this as "Area A," on Main Street? + +Captain MARTIN. No, no; across this ramp there, there was quite a +number of people. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is in the space I have marked "Area A"? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Roughly how many people? + +Captain MARTIN. Oh, I'd say 15 or 20. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes; more or less. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many ranks deep would you think? + +Captain MARTIN. I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you regard it as a crowd? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes; I would. Mostly the press. There were some +officers in that area also. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think this Officer Harrison was---- + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes, yes; he--he is one of my men. He was standing, oh, +just about at the edge of the ramp there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you mark on the map by the use of a circle where you +think Harrison was at the time? + +Captain MARTIN. Harrison was about right here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is at the time of the shooting? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes; uh-huh. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you just extend this with a little line and then +write out, "Position of"--what are his initials? W. J.? + +Captain MARTIN. W. J. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Martin, let me see if I can get something +clear. Was Detective Harrison in front of Oswald, or to one or the +other sides of him? + +Captain MARTIN. This happened so fast it is really hard to tell. + +Of course, Oswald and the two officers came out this door. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the jail door? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. When they got just about, oh, 2 or 3 feet from Harrison, +there was a movement over here [indicating]. I couldn't tell what it +was. I could tell there was a movement. + +Mr. HUBERT. By "over here," you mean---- + +Captain MARTIN. On the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. What side of the ramp? The basement--the garage? + +Captain MARTIN. The garage. The garage side. Evidently Ruby was +standing right here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "here," you'd better put a mark and put a +little arrow to it, your best recollection as to where Ruby must have +been. You didn't see Ruby? + +Captain MARTIN. No, no; this is just supposition. He had to be right in +here somewhere. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, just put a mark and a line and indicate +where he was. + +Captain MARTIN. I didn't see him, but he had to be right there +[indicating]. There is no question about that. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did see someone come from that position? + +Captain MARTIN. It was a movement. I didn't see anybody, but there was +a movement in there that I could detect, and then the shot was fired. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you write here? + +Captain MARTIN. "Ruby before the shooting." Or, "immediately before." + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, just tell us what you observed? + +Captain MARTIN. Well, as soon as the shot was fired, of course, it +dumbfounded me, and I tried to get through the people there on my +right, to get over there to it, and there was a lot of confusion in +there, and I had trouble getting through the press, and when I did get +through they had already taken Ruby into the jail office and Oswald was +also in the jail office. Ruby was down on the floor just inside the +jail, and Oswald was lying on the north side of the jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Oswald first came out of the jail office +with Graves and Leavelle, were you looking at him? + +Captain MARTIN. I saw him come out. Now, whether it was--it was shortly +after they come out--I saw him after the shot was fired. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were looking towards him? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes; I thought they were coming all around me and go up +by me and go up to the armored car, that is what I had in mind. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were not aware that the plans had been changed so that +they--he was going to be taken in a police car, rather than in the +armored car? + +Captain MARTIN. No; I didn't know anything about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, did you know anything about the route that was going +to be used? + +Captain MARTIN. No, as far as I knew, they were going to put him in +the armored truck. That is the reason I was standing there, because I +figured they would come right back there and I could go up there with +them, but they didn't ever make it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what other officers were doing, or in what +direction they were looking about the time that Oswald came out? + +Captain MARTIN. No; I didn't personally observe it, except on TV later. +At the time I didn't notice them. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at the time that Oswald came out, you were +looking where--you were looking towards Oswald, and if I understand it, +you are not in a position to tell us now what other people were doing +except what you saw later on television, is that right? + +Captain MARTIN. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now do you have, any comment about what you saw +on--later on television? + +Captain MARTIN. Well, it seems that all the officers were watching +Oswald when they should have been watching the crowd. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, that impression you formed by looking at the +television coverage of it? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And, you did not form that impression at the time the shot +was fired? + +Captain MARTIN. No; I hadn't noticed them then. In fact, I was over +where I couldn't see them. + +Mr. HUBERT. When was the first time that you did recognize Ruby as the +man who shot Oswald? + +Captain MARTIN. When I went in the jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it until then? + +Captain MARTIN. No; I saw him on the floor. Then I heard somebody say +it was Jack Ruby, and I went in there and saw him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you? + +Captain MARTIN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything at all? + +Captain MARTIN. There was so much going on, I don't know whether he +said anything or not. First thing I heard was somebody said, "He has +been shot." And then there was confusion. I don't know who said that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby at any time +thereafter? + +Captain MARTIN. No, no. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Martin, is there anything else you would like +to say concerning any aspect of this matter at all? + +Captain MARTIN. I--don't take this down. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, if you don't want to say it on the record, you'd +better not say it at all. + +Captain MARTIN. There is a lot to be said, but probably be better if I +don't say it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know what you mean by---- + +Captain MARTIN. Well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That it would be better. What we are seeking to find out is +the facts on it. + +Captain MARTIN. I understand. + +Mr. HUBERT. If what you have to say is more or less a matter of +opinion, that is one thing. I don't want to ask you to express your +opinion, but any facts you know that you think might bear upon this +matter, I would ask that you state those facts. + +Captain MARTIN. Well, there is not but one thing that I could say about +the whole business. Of course, we are not experienced in handling this +sort of a prisoner. I don't guess anybody is, as far as that goes, +but the way I saw it, there was no organization at all. I didn't know +who was in charge or anything about it. I don't guess anybody--either +people should have been told something--what to do and what to expect. +We weren't---- + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you any other facts that you think +have any bearing upon---- + +Captain MARTIN. No, no; I don't think so. I think it is more or less in +that report there [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you are talking about the documents you +have identified? + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, other than the interview that I had with you this +morning, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission +staff? + +Captain MARTIN. No, no. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, but I did interview you this morning just prior to +lunch, I think at which time we arranged for you to come to have your +deposition taken. + +Captain MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you perceive at the present time any inconsistency +between the interview with me this morning and your testimony in the +deposition this afternoon? + +Captain MARTIN. No, no. It is about the same. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you state anything, or provide any material, state any +facts in the course of the interview this morning which has not been +developed in the record this afternoon? + +Captain MARTIN. I don't recall anything. If there is any you can think +of, you can ask me and I will bring it out, but I don't recall a thing. + +Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I don't. I am just obliged to ask these questions +to wrap it up. + +Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. HUBERT. We certainly thank you, Captain Martin, and I thank you +personally and on behalf of the Commission for your cooperation in this +matter. If at any time, if you know that there are some other facts +that you may have overlooked, please feel completely free to get in +touch with us so that we may find out what that fact may be. In other +words, it is never too late to reveal a fact which has been omitted as +a lapse of memory. + +Captain MARTIN. I don't know of a thing right now. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BILLY JOE MAXEY + +The testimony of Billy Joe Maxey was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of--is that Billy Joe Maxey? It is +not William? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Billy Joe Maxey? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory +staff of the general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, on the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the +provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a +joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedures +adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and +the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition +from you, Mr. Maxey. I state to you now that the general nature of +the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon +the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of Lee H. Oswald. In particular as to you, +Mr. Maxey, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts +you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you +may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Maxey, you appeared here by +virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of +the Staff of the President's Commission, and under the rules adopted by +the Commission for the taking of these depositions, you are entitled to +a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition. But the +rules also provide that a witness may waive this. I now ask if you are +willing to waive it? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to +tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name. + +Sergeant MAXEY. Billy Joe Maxey. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your age? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Thirty-three. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir? + +Sergeant MAXEY. 8912 Freeport Drive. + +Mr. HUBERT. That in Dallas? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Field sergeant, Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Police Department? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Nine years, and approximately a half. Since September +20th, 1954. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your assignment today? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Field sergeant, patrol division. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same assignment that you had during the period +of November 22 and 24, 1963? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. I was acting lieutenant on that particular +day. Number 16. + +Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "Number 16"? + +Sergeant MAXEY. That is the call from the northeast substation. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any particular orders or functions with +respect to the transfer of Oswald to the county jail? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; not before I arrived at the central station. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you arrive there? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere in the vicinity of 11 a.m. I am not positive +of the exact time. + +Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile were you driving then? + +Sergeant MAXEY. A plain car, black 1963 model Ford. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, unmarked? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where were you coming from? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Northeast substation. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you been ordered in? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to get there then? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I had some cards to be taken to 511, where there were +requests for off-duty employment, overtime work and I thought perhaps +I might be able to assist them. I knew they were going to need all the +help they could get down there that day. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had not been ordered down there? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with your car? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I parked it on the north end of the garage. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I approached Putnam. They were dispersing some traffic +officers or some officers who worked traffic. They weren't in the +traffic division, they were patrol officers, and asked him at this time +if there was anything I could do, and he said, that if I would wait a +few minutes I could probably go hop in Sergeant Dean's station wagon. +I--he didn't elaborate, and I stayed there in the basement there for a +few minutes. I don't know exactly how long and Lieutenant Pierce came +down and Sergeant Putnam spoke to me, and said, "Why don't you go with +us?" And I approached Lieutenant Pierce's car and he was in this--he +was in his car at this time and asked him if he wanted me to go with +him and he said, "Yes." + +Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform, I take it? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, what happened? + +Sergeant MAXEY. So, I got into the back seat of Lieutenant Pierce's +car. We started to drive out and Sergeant Putnam had to move some +reporters back. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many were there? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I would say in the vicinity of 35. That is a guess, of +course, I have no way of knowing. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the Main Street ramp? + +Sergeant MAXEY. At the--that was at the bottom of both ramps, down +right outside the jail door, and part of the people were blocking the +Main Street ramp where we were going to make a turn and go out. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, he cleared them out and the car followed behind him? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time it was, about, when he left? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Well, now, at that time, I wasn't noticing the time, +but since all this happened---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't want you to state what knowledge you have +gained since, because we can get at that other ways. + +Sergeant MAXEY. Well, at that time I thought I had been in the basement +approximately 10 or 15 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you got there at 11 o'clock? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere in the vicinity. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you would think that it would be around 11:15 or 11:16? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere thereabouts. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, where were you seated in the car? + +Sergeant MAXEY. On the left side in the back seat. That is the left +side facing the way the automobile faces. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you observe when you got to the top of the ramp? + +Sergeant MAXEY. The best I can remember when we pulled to the +top of the ramp and paused, I was looking across Main Street. +There was a group of people, a bus or something that attracted my +attention--whatever it was I--it didn't amount to much. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that to your left, or to your right? + +Sergeant MAXEY. That was---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Straight ahead? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Almost straight ahead. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, when you got to the top of the ramp, did the car +stop? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I believe there was a momentary hesitation. I don't +recall how long. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Officer Vaughn? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way out. Now, +on the way in, yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when you were coming at 11 o'clock, you saw +him? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way +out, as I say, I was looking across the street. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall having seen him at all? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you look to your right down Main Street in the +direction of Pearl? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe so. I don't remember if I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you look to your left down Main Street in the direction +of Harwood? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe so. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your position is you didn't look either way? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you didn't see anybody on either side? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got around to the Commerce Street side had +the shooting already taken place? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; I suppose it had, because as +we--correction--as the Lieutenant backed our car into position in front +of the armored car, I heard the dispatcher call an ambulance code 3, to +the basement and officers were rushing around, covering exits to the +city hall, so apparently it happened just before we arrived. That had +given them time to call the dispatcher by phone for an ambulance, would +be my guess that we were on Harwood Street at the time that it happened. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further connection with the event? + +Sergeant MAXEY. We went to Parkland. Lieutenant Pierce, Sergeant +Putnam, and I went to Parkland Hospital and set up security out there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk with Jack Ruby at anytime? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the man? + +Sergeant MAXEY. I know him slightly. I know him by sight. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him in the ramp at anytime while you were +driving up? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at anytime that day at all, at any place? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am marking now three documents as indicated. This +is a document, apparently a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed +to Chief J. E. Curry, the original of which is signed by you, and two +pages. I am marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, Exhibit--March 25, +1964, Exhibit 5094, from the deposition of B. J. Maxey," and signing +my name below that on the first page, and I am putting my initials +on the lower right-hand corner of the second page and I'll ask you to +be reading that while I mark the second document, which is a report +of an FBI interview of December 6, 1963, taken of you by FBI Agents +Quigley and Dallman and I am marking that document, "Dallas, Texas, +March 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 5095. Deposition of B. J. Maxey." I am +signing my name, Leon D. Hubert underneath, and marking the second page +of that document by my initial in the lower right-hand corner. The +third document, I am marking in the margin, right-hand margin, "Dallas, +Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5096. Deposition of B. J. Maxey," and +signing my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am marking the second page of +that document with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and the +third page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I will ask +you to read these two documents likewise, and I wish to ask you some +questions about them. + +Sergeant MAXEY. As far as the report here written to the chief, I would +say that it is accurate at the time that I wrote it, and I am willing +to sign it as is, and I--what page was it you wanted me to sign here? + +Mr. HUBERT. Just under my name. + +Sergeant MAXEY. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Initial the second page. + +Sergeant MAXEY. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, you can turn to the next exhibit, which +is---- + +Sergeant MAXEY. The FBI report. There are two of them there. I believe +both of them are the same, aren't they? Wait a minute. One of them +might possibly be a supplement. + +Mr. HUBERT. No; they are different. One is on the 2d of December and +the other is on the 6th, so, you'd better separate them. Do you have +any comments to make on them? + +Sergeant MAXEY. One of the things that I was going to bring up here, +changes has been made in this one already, this second one. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's see, we are talking about Exhibit 5095. + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make? + +Sergeant MAXEY. In the first report it was stated in there that the FBI +report of December 3, I believe---- + +Mr. HUBERT. 2d. + +Sergeant MAXEY. 2d? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Sergeant MAXEY. And the report of December 2, Exhibit 5096, it was +stated that I saw ex-police officer Daniels and shoeshine boy at the +end of the Main Street ramp. That was incorrect. I did not. That was +hearsay. I heard that from other officers. I did not see them myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. And, as a result of that error you then called the FBI and +told them you wished to correct that, is that correct? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; they came back out there. + +Mr. HUBERT. They came back out and said what? + +Sergeant MAXEY. And asked me some more questions regarding the shine +boy. They ask me then did I recall the time and I know at the time I +talked to them the first time I told them several things that I didn't +see myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Sergeant MAXEY. I told them things that I had heard and what have you, +and I tried to differentiate between what I could actually testify and +what I couldn't at this time he was talking to me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your present recollection is what then? Which is correct? + +Sergeant MAXEY. My present recollection is that I didn't see Daniels. I +didn't see the shine boy. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that the information that you did give about seeing +Daniels and the shine boy in the earlier deposition--I mean the earlier +statement to the FBI, which is contained in Exhibit 5096 was erroneous +in that you had not really seen them, but you had heard people talk +about them? + +Sergeant MAXEY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, in all three statements, however, 5094 and 5095, and +5096, you stated then that you did see Officer Vaughn and yet, as I +recall your testimony this evening you said that you did not recall +having seen Vaughn. + +Sergeant MAXEY. At the present time I don't, but those were written +up close to the time all this happened, and I haven't seen one of +those reports since, and lots that I don't remember right now that I +remembered then, I am sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's correct, and that's why I wanted you to correct this +apparently contradictory statement. + +Sergeant MAXEY. That's true, I understand that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Because, we don't want to have the record, if we can, to +have conflicts in it. + +Sergeant MAXEY. Neither do I, I can assure you. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, your statement is that you can't swear tonight that you +saw Vaughn there? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No; I can recollect at the time, how--at the time I was +questioned about Vaughn, the main thing they wanted to know about him +at that time was how far he had walked from his position to the curb. +Whether he walked to the curb or out into the street which I didn't +know. + +Mr. HUBERT. And right now your mind is blank on Vaughn altogether, I +take it? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Actually, yes. I wasn't--right now I couldn't say. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, has anybody asked you to change your statement? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, uh-huh, so far as that goes, I haven't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to anybody about it? + +Sergeant MAXEY. As far as that goes I haven't talked to anybody about +the statement. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have talked to anybody about the possible conflict in +your statement? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Uh-uh. + +Mr. HUBERT. I don't know how that comes out on the machine. I suppose +you mean "no" by that. + +Sergeant MAXEY. No; no. I'd like to say this: That as far as the +conflicting statements are concerned, the only reason a person would +have for getting together and getting his story straight would be to +have something to hide, and I want it known right now I have nothing to +hide, and I want it on the record. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; it is on the record. This is not an effort to +cross you up in any way. + +Sergeant MAXEY. I realize that. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, you realize that these statements do exist, and the +purpose of this deposition, among other things, is to determine the +real facts, and when you run into a conflict like this, unless we ask +for explanations we do not get a clear picture. + +Sergeant MAXEY. That's true. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. I want to ask you again if you have any +explanation, any other explanation to offer now as to conflicts, or is +it just simply your opinion that insofar as Vaughn is concerned, your +memory was better then than it is now about that event? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes; I hadn't thought about it too much one way or the +other since then. I will say excluding 4 or 5 days thereafter. + +Mr. HUBERT. And as to Daniels and the colored boy, your statement now +is that that was hearsay. You did not, yourself---- + +Sergeant MAXEY. That was hearsay, and I gave it to him as an--as a +hearsay statement. That was a matter of semantics in my opinion. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that the record can show we are all talking about the +same documents, I would like you to sign below my signature and initial +the pages of 5096 and 5095, with the understanding that this is not +an approval by you of these statements at all, but simply as a means +of identification that you and I were both talking about the same +document. So, I would like you to sign my--just below mine and put your +initials on the preceding pages. + +Sergeant MAXEY. Where is your name? + +Mr. HUBERT. My name is right down here in the margin. Just put it right +in there. Then initial the other pages until you get to the second FBI +statement and then sign under my name. In other words, where my name +is signed, sign your name. Where my initials are, put your initials. + +Sergeant MAXEY. Well, now, there is some more points that I want to +bring up. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's do this anyhow, what we are doing. + +Sergeant MAXEY. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I say, this is solely for the purposes of the record +showing that we are talking about the same pieces of paper. + +Sergeant MAXEY. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have further corrections or comments you wish to +make on these documents? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; perhaps they are of no importance, and +perhaps they are, but it is apparently a misunderstanding on the +part--matter of semantics, again, and let's see--paragraph 5, on page +1, states here that--"A few minutes after that Lieutenant Pierce +entered the garage driving a black car." Now, I don't remember him +entering the garage. I believe his car was already parked down there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is that? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Lieutenant Pierce. I don't believe he drove into the +police garage from outside. I believe his car was already parked in the +basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. And other comments? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Page 2, paragraph 8. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is still 5095? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; page 2, paragraph 8. That was the correction +I advised the FBI office that I did not actually see Daniels and the +shoeshine boy. That this was something I had overheard other officers +talking about, and that has already been taken care of. Page 3, +paragraph 10. This is concerning---- + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the 10th paragraph of--actually, the third +paragraph, I guess, on that page. + +Sergeant MAXEY. Well, it is part of a paragraph and a full paragraph. + +Mr. HUBERT. Last paragraph on the third---- + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; next to the last. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, second to the last? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Next to the last on the second page. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Sergeant MAXEY. It's concerning Jack Ruby. "He first met him---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that in quotes? You are reading that, aren't you? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Uh-huh. It states here that I first met him about 2 +years ago there that--at his place of business, that I had my wife with +me. + +Mr. HUBERT. With you? + +Sergeant MAXEY. The correction would be that my wife was not with me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your wife was not with you? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Not at the time I first met him. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that the record can be clear on a point, did you ever +go there with your wife at some other time? + +Sergeant MAXEY. Not the Carousel Club. The Vegas Club; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Okay. + +Sergeant MAXEY. And, let's see. I guess that's about it. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, that is to 5095. Have you any comments as to +5096? I think that is the one that contains your explanation on the +previous point. + +Sergeant MAXEY. No; second one is correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Sergeant MAXEY. Wait a minute. I didn't read this. That's all right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything more you want to say? Anything you +want to add? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; that's it. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Sergeant MAXEY. About all of it, those two statements. + +Mr. HUBERT. I don't believe that there has been any previous interview +between you and me? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or any member of the Commission's staff? + +Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LOGAN W. MAYO + +The testimony of Logan W. Mayo was taken at 8:40 p.m., on March 26, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Logan W. Mayo. Mr. Mayo, my +name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the +general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the Executive +Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of +Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedures adopted by the +Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint +resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from +you, Mr. Mayo. So, I state to you that the general nature of the +Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the +facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the +subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, +the nature of our inquiry is to determine what the facts are that +you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you +may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Mayo, you have appeared here +tonight by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general +counsel of the staff of the President's Commission by a letter written +to J. E. Curry, chief of police asking him to make his officers, +reserve and regular, available to the Commission. Under the rules +adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice +prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that +the witness may waive this notice if he sees fit to do so. I am asking +you if you are willing to waive that 3-day notice? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice and +cooperate with you in any way that I can. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly +swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so +help you God? + +Mr. MAYO. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name? + +Mr. MAYO. Logan W. Mayo. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Mr. MAYO. Fifty-six. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? + +Mr. MAYO. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. And what is your civilian occupation, sir? + +Mr. MAYO. I am an accountant. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that profession, sir? + +Mr. MAYO. Thirty-five years. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is your own private business? + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I am with Sears Roebuck & Company. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see, and are you in charge of a division or something +with that company? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what it is? + +Mr. MAYO. In charge of accounting and the auditing and the accounts +payable of the mail order catalog business. + +Mr. HUBERT. In the Dallas---- + +Mr. MAYO. Dallas region. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed by Sears Roebuck? + +Mr. MAYO. Thirty-five years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are also, as I understand, a member of the reserve +on the Dallas Police Force? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the reserve? + +Mr. MAYO. Six years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have occasion to be called to duty on November +24, 1963, the Sunday after the President was shot? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you been on duty prior to that Sunday? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I want to concern ourselves solely with the Sunday, +right now. + +Mr. MAYO. No; not on Sunday, not until I was called at 9 o'clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; at 9 o'clock, you did get a call to come on duty? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was it from, do you remember? + +Mr. MAYO. I think it was Sergeant Maxey. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you to notify any other reservists? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who were they, do you remember? + +Mr. MAYO. He asked me to call the reservists in my squad, which +consists of about six, seven people. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are a lieutenant, aren't you? + +Mr. MAYO. I'm a sergeant. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you did call? + +Mr. MAYO. I called the men, but none of them showed up. They had all +gone to church, or was fixing to go to church. I contacted a lot of +them and they were leaving to go to Sunday school and they had other +plans and none of them could make it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Holly? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you get in touch with him? + +Mr. MAYO. I got in touch with him and he said he would come down as +soon as he got loose. I didn't see him at the city hall, though. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him? + +Mr. MAYO. I called him on the phone. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time he should get down there or what +time the transfer was going to be? + +Mr. MAYO. I told him he should try to be there between 10 and 10:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time the transfer was going to be, or +that you thought it was going to be, or anything of that sort? + +Mr. MAYO. I told him it might be sometime between 10 and noon. I didn't +know for sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him any more after that? + +Mr. MAYO. I didn't see him down at the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to the city hall? + +Mr. MAYO. I got there about 9:45. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where were you stationed? + +Mr. MAYO. I was stationed right here, at Commerce Street, guarding this +entrance to the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the +mockup, and he points to the sidewalk area in front of the Commerce +Street exit---- + +Mr. MAYO. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of the police department. How long did you stay there, sir? + +Mr. MAYO. I was there from about 10:15 until about 11:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were what---- + +Mr. MAYO. Then, I left and went---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What were your duties? + +Mr. MAYO. My duty was to guard the entrance to the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "guard," what do you mean? + +Mr. MAYO. I was not to permit any people to go in there except maybe +the press that had a certified press card. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you given any description of the kind of cards that +you could honor? + +Mr. MAYO. I was told that they probably would have a press card with +their picture on it and their newspaper. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to refuse entrance to anyone? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; several people. + +Mr. HUBERT. You turned them away? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did some pass by you, that is to say, with your consent, +after being properly identified? + +Mr. MAYO. You mean enter the building? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. MAYO. I let two in from newspapers. + +Mr. HUBERT. And they were properly identified? + +Mr. MAYO. They were properly identified. One of them had a two-wheeled +cart, similar to a two-wheel golf cart and pulling some equipment on it. + +Mr. HUBERT. What kind of equipment? + +Mr. MAYO. It looked like cameras and typewriters. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby or have you seen any pictures since +in the paper? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; I don't know him, but I have seen his picture. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to state that neither of those two men +that you let in was Jack Ruby? + +Mr. MAYO. Neither of those two men were him. They were smaller in +stature. I want to tell you that at 11:30, I left the entrance and went +to the other one on Main Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the +mockup and when he says he left "this entrance," he was pointing to the +Commerce Street entrance, and then he went to the---- + +Mr. MAYO. Main Street entrance? + +Mr. HUBERT. Main Street entrance. + +Mr. MAYO. The other---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the building? + +Mr. MAYO. I went in the building, stayed over there until 1:10. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened? + +Mr. MAYO. I got off duty and went home. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't go out to the Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I was asked to go, but didn't have any relief +so they wanted the guard, there was about a hundred or so people +congregating and coming up from church and everywhere else, and just a +big crowd there, see, and I was needed there. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street entrance? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, for purposes of identification I want to +mark what purports to be a signed copy of a report to Chief Curry, +dated December 3, 1963, and signed, actually, by Jack Revill, and F. I. +Cornwall, by placing in the right-hand margin the following, "Dallas, +Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5111, deposition of R. L. Mayo." I am +signing my name under that, and I'll ask you if you have read that, Mr. +Mayo? I mean read the letter? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, I have read that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you endorse your name underneath it? I'm also +endorsing a document which is a report of FBI Agent Wilkinson dated +December 5, 1963, by placing on the right-hand margin the following: +"Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5112, deposition of H. L. +Mayo." I'm signing my name and ask you to sign your name. + +Mr. MAYO. What is this right here [indicating]? + +Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to read it first. That's right. + +Mr. MAYO. Do you want me to sign this? I talked to Mr. Wilkinson---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. As far as you know, then, the contents of the +documents marked 5111 and 5112, are correct reports of interviews to +which they relate? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that I am not taking out of the bound +volume, Commission Document 81-A, page 70, the signed statement by Mr. +Mayo. Mr. Mayo, do you have anything more to add? Anything new that has +not been brought up in either this deposition or these two Exhibits, +5111 and 5112? + +Mr. MAYO. Well, could you cut this off a minute and let's talk about it +and see? + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that Mr. Mayo wanted to acquaint me +with the general nature of another matter, but that after he had spoken +a few sentences, it became apparent to me that it should be a matter of +record, so, I will ask you now, Mr. Mayo, just simply to repeat what +you have said to me in the last few sentences off the record. + +Mr. MAYO. The first individual that tried to gain entrance into the +basement said that he was a minister and he had a small book in his +hand and I asked him what his business was. He said he wanted to go +see Lee Harvey Oswald, that he was a friend of his, a minister that +was supposed to help him, and he needed him, and he needed to go down +there, and I told him "No, he could not enter without"--now, that is +when I was on the Commerce Street side, and he hung around the entrance +for some 20 minutes, I think, and he kept looking in the basement and +acted very peculiar, but finally he left within about 20 minutes. He +was tall, skinny, looked like over 6 feet tall, and looked like he was +a man between 55 and 60. + +Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed? + +Mr. MAYO. He had on a suit. I don't recall the color of it, but it was +just a suit, business suit with a necktie. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; he had a hat on. + +Mr. HUBERT. And a coat? + +Mr. MAYO. I--yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. A top coat? + +Mr. MAYO. I don't believe that he had on---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Regular coat, suit coat, not an overcoat? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you reported the fact to the---- + +Mr. MAYO. I mentioned that to Jack Revill, and they said, well, it was +probably just like lots of people trying to gain entrance. They didn't +think it had much value. + +Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested that it be left out of your report? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else? + +Mr. MAYO. When I changed positions--stations, and went from Commerce +Street to the Main Street side, about 10 minutes after Oswald had been +placed in the ambulance, I cleared the way for them to get out of the +entrance. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. MAYO. I went to the other side, and a large gentleman, well, he was +slightly bald, weighed over 200 pounds, and walked with a limp. He came +up to me and then said that he was a roommate of Jack Ruby, and that he +wanted to go down and talk to him. And I told him he could not enter. I +asked him what was the nature of his business and he said that Mr. Ruby +had quite a sum of money on his person and he wanted to go down there +and see if he wanted him to handle it for him. I told him he couldn't +go down and he stayed up around there about 20 or 30 minutes, and +finally went on down Main Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you his name? + +Mr. MAYO. I didn't ask him his name. He didn't give me his name. I told +him he couldn't enter--and he walked with a limp. I remember that. He +was a large fellow. Had no tie on and slightly bald. No hat on. + +Mr. HUBERT. And he claimed to be a roommate of Jack Ruby? + +Mr. MAYO. Jack Ruby; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe him otherwise, his hair, his height---- + +Mr. MAYO. I'd say he was over 6 feet tall, and much heavier than I am. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have given all that information, I think. Did he have a +coat on? + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir; he had no coat on. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just a shirt? + +Mr. MAYO. Just a shirt, heavy shirt and no tie on. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you gave that information to Jack Revill? + +Mr. MAYO. I mentioned it to him and he said, well, just probably +somebody knew him and trying to use an excuse to get in, so, he didn't +feel like it was--it is my opinion it might be this fellow Senator that +we have been hearing about. I don't know how you spell his name. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you estimate what time it was that this man, the heavy +man, tried to get in to see Jack Ruby through the Main Street entrance? + +Mr. MAYO. Sir, I would only have to estimate it at, I would say, around +11:45. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, anything else that you mentioned to Revill that was +not put down? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. I mentioned about the tourists. That is a man and +a woman that hung around the entrance on the Main Street side and said +they were just passing through Dallas, and they lived in Springfield, +Ill., I believe they said, and they wanted to take some pictures, and +they kept hanging around the entrance and they did take a few pictures +and finally left. I don't know if they are connected with it or not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, you mentioned that episode to Jack Revill and he +also was of the opinion that it was not important? + +Mr. MAYO. Minor, minor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Any other things then? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. While I was on the Commerce Street side I had a +Ford Fairlane car that came up about three times with two men in the +front seat, and each time they would stop and ask me if he had come +down--"What's happening?" I wondered then--now, I didn't mention that +to Revill, because I didn't think about it at the time, but I wondered +since then if they had some connection with this---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not mention that to Revill? + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't take the license number? + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir; it was just routine to me. They kept coming by. + +Mr. HUBERT. And how many times did they pass you, do you know? + +Mr. MAYO. Third time---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You saw them three times? Three times they came down +Commerce? + +Mr. MAYO. Came down--Commerce is one way going east, and they came down +on my side and they slowed down and stopped and asked me, "Has he come +down? Is anything happening?" And I would motion them on, because my +job was to keep the street open. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that happened three times? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And after the third time, what happened? Is that when the +shot was fired or something, or you didn't see them any more or---- + +Mr. MAYO. After--I didn't hear the shot, but the hustle and bustle +and noise in the basement, I looked down there and the men and all +going around and around. Everything--and I heard a little radio from +a pedestrian that said that Oswald had been shot, broadcast, and just +about that time, I saw them going down Commerce Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "them," you mean the two men in the Fairlane +car? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. They were just a little past the entrance when all +this commotion started. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was the third trip? + +Mr. MAYO. That was the third trip down. I went on down--went downstairs. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't notice whether it was a Texas license or not; or +out of State? + +Mr. MAYO. I didn't get a chance to see the license. + +Mr. HUBERT. Ford Fairlane. Do you remember the color? + +Mr. MAYO. Seemed to me like it was a blue, or light color of some kind. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was it a sedan? + +Mr. MAYO. It was a 4-door. + +Mr. HUBERT. 4-door sedan? Hard top? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; hard top. + +Mr. HUBERT. What model, about? A new car? Could you give us some idea +about the model? + +Mr. MAYO. It was a late model car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was it a 1964 model? + +Mr. MAYO. No, no; it wasn't a 1964 model. If I was going to guess I +would say a 1962 or 1963--one. That man was hatless and he had a high +forehead. + +Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't bald was he? + +Mr. MAYO. I wouldn't say he was bald, just had a high forehead. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that the driver? + +Mr. MAYO. That was the driver. + +Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed? + +Mr. MAYO. He had on an old, old--looks like he had a heavy wool shirt +like you wear in the winter, long sleeves. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have a tie on? + +Mr. MAYO. No tie. + +Mr. HUBERT. What color was the shirt? Do you remember? + +Mr. MAYO. The shirt--it was kind of checked color. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he dark complected? + +Mr. MAYO. He was dark complected. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old a man? + +Mr. MAYO. I would guess in the forties, just by looking at him, and I +have wondered since about his interest in it. Maybe just somebody that +was inquisitive and wanted to see what was going on. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could be. On the other hand we want to get all the facts, +and that is a fact. What about the other man? Did you see him? + +Mr. MAYO. I didn't pay much attention to him, because he was on the +other side and I was dealing with the driver. It was a one-way street, +and I was dealing with the driver over here and I didn't pay too much +attention to the other man. I couldn't even describe him. + +Mr. HUBERT. How close do you suppose you were to this man each time he +drove up? + +Mr. MAYO. Oh, I'd say 4 to 6 feet. See, my duty was to stand on the +sidewalk and keep the overflow of people--we had about 200 people, and +if I moved out, somebody on the sidewalk could go in behind me, and I +didn't get too far from the entrance of the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to show you a set of pictures and ask if that man +there--look at them all first before you answer--bears any resemblance +at all to the man you saw? + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness was looking at the +pictures of Curtis Lavern Crafard. What about the other man in the car? +Did he look like this fellow? + +Mr. MAYO. Sir, I wasn't close enough to make any identification or +recognize him. He was on the other side and I wasn't able to. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, was there anything else that you want to state to us? + +Mr. MAYO. No; I can't think of anything else, sir. It was all just--I'd +say, a state of commotion and confusion when this happened, and I had +people everywhere around me and I just assumed that they are curiosity +seekers. Making various comments about the assassination of a President. + +Mr. HUBERT. I want to identify these pictures a little further. The +pictures that were shown to the witness were various views of a man +by the name of Curtis Lavern Crafard, taken November 28, 1963, by the +FBI, and forwarded to the Commission recently. All right, sir. Is +there anything else that you want to state about anything we have been +talking about? + +Mr. MAYO. No; I can't think of anything else that would pertain to this +in any way and my work there. I was just on duty that morning and +doing the best I could, and I can't think of any other incident. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Well, let me ask you this: Have you ever been +interviewed by me or any other member of the Commission at any time +except, of course, with this deposition? + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I've not been interviewed by you. + +Mr. HUBERT. About a moment ago we went off the record. Have we covered, +since we have been back on the record everything that you told me while +we were off the record? + +Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. That is it. Thank you. + +Mr. MAYO. I want to express my appreciation to you people. I think you +have done a fine job about investigating this thing, and I'm very happy +to cooperate with you. I hope that you are able to solve this thing +out and get it straight out, because I still think in my mind there +was something back of this, because too much confusion around these +entrances, and I, personally want to express my appreciation to every +one of you people. + +Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by "too much confusion"? + +Mr. MAYO. Seemed to me like people standing around and looking around. +I don't know. People are funny. I have been working a long time. They +just move around. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean a lot of members of the public? + +Mr. MAYO. Public; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, let me clarify one thing, did your remark intend to +say that the security methods weren't sufficient? + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I think the security methods were very fine, but I +just wondered why the curiosity. I still wonder in my own mind. I don't +know. I wonder why so many people were down there? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; well, I wanted to get that straight, because at first +I thought your remark might be construed by someone as being critical +of the security measures. + +Mr. MAYO. No, sir; the security measures was, at this time, was very +good. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. + +Mr. MAYO. Anything else? + +Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; that's all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LOUIS D. MILLER + +The testimony of Louis D. Miller was taken at 3:55 p.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I will swear you in, Mr. Miller. + +Mr. MILLER. Before we do that, what are we doing here? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. We are taking your deposition. + +Mr. MILLER. I'd like to understand what we are doing here first. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, all right. I'll be happy to explain it to you. First +of all so that we can get the record straight, my name is Burt Griffin, +and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the +President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President +Kennedy. And the Commission has been appointed under Executive Order +11130, issued November 29, 1963, by President Johnson, under joint +resolution of Congress No. 137, to investigate the facts surrounding +the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death +of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the other circumstances that were attendant +on these two offenses. Now, I have been authorized, under the rules +of the Commission, to take your sworn deposition, and Chief Curry has +a copy of that authorization. I will be happy to show it to you if +you care to see it. Our particular interest in your testimony is to +determine what facts you know about the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, +but also to determine any other pertinent facts that you may know about +the general inquiry which the Commission is authorized to go into. Now, +you are here today because we have made a request from the General +Counsel on the Commission staff, and pursuant to the rules adopted by +the Commission, and we have made the request to Chief Curry. Now, you +are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to having this deposition +taken, and if you would like that we would be happy to do that. We had +presumed that probably the police officers would prefer to have the +notice waived. You are also entitled to have an attorney present during +this interrogation. Now, I have no objection in any way you want to +handle this. I want you to be perfectly frank in telling us, because we +have gone ahead, as I said, simply on the assumption that you probably +would prefer to waive these matters, but if you would like to have +the written notice and would like to have a copy of the authorizing +resolution, or would like to have an attorney present during this +deposition we would be happy---- + +Mr. MILLER. No; I just want to understand what is going on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any question that you want to ask me +about it? I have given you a general statement here. + +Mr. MILLER. What will this deposition be used for? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this deposition will be made a part of the +Commission's files. It will not be turned over to any member of the +police department. These files will remain in the possession of the +Commission, and on the basis of all of the investigation which we are +conducting here, why, there will be a report written. Now, I can't tell +you what is going to happen to the files after--and that means this +deposition--after the Commission issues its report. I would like to be +able to give you the assurance that it will be impossible for anybody +to ever see this deposition. I can't, in honesty, tell you that, +because I don't know that that is true. On the other hand, I don't know +that it is not true, but basically, it will be used to write a report, +and your testimony that you would give would be one of probably close +to 250, maybe 500 depositions that are going to be taken during this +period. I think 500 might be a pretty fair estimate, together with +thousands, and probably approaching ten thousand pages of investigative +reports and other documents also in addition to all these investigative +reports. That is where it is all going to wind up. But, I can assure +you of this: That no copies of this are going to be turned over to any +member of the police department or any official of the State of Texas +as such. Now, whether or not the thing will be accessible because they +are all deposited in the archives, and years from now somebody could go +and look at them, I don't know the answers to that. + +Mr. MILLER. Well, is what you want from me a statement of what happened +down there? Is that what you are getting at? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but let me tell you this, too, that if you feel that +you would prefer to talk about this thing off the record and that you +think you would have important information to give us that you prefer +to be kept--to have some assurances that your confidences would be kept +completely, I would be happy to defer this deposition and do it in such +a way that no one would know the reason for it, and I would check with +our people in Washington to see if there weren't some arrangements +which could be made for it, because we are most concerned with getting +the truth, and as much information--I wasn't suggesting that you +wouldn't tell the truth, that we all know, and I would appreciate if +there were better circumstances under which we could do this. I would +inquire into it and I would make this a matter of complete confidence +between us. + +Mr. MILLER. Well, there is nothing that I know that possibly a hundred +other people don't know, so, that part don't bother me, but I don't +understand coming down and giving a statement, that I am supposed to +stand, and swearing, and all that part of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this is just as--I am sure you have testified before +grand juries. + +Mr. MILLER. I sure have. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you have been sworn when you testified there. +Only they don't have a court reporter in the grand jury. I don't know +about Texas, but in Ohio we don't have a court reporter present. I do +have the feeling in talking to you that maybe you would like to do this +under some other circumstances, and I would be happy to explore this. + +Mr. MILLER. I understand that you want a statement from me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I am going to examine you. + +Mr. MILLER. And I'll be more than glad to tell anything I know about +it, but I don't understand swearing in. This is not a court. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Not a court in the sense that anybody is on trial, but it +is a--let me explain this to you, that we have authority to administer +the oath, and we have authority to punish for all consequences in +violation of the oath. The contempt provision of the Federal Code +applies to this proceeding. We also have authority--I don't have this +authority personally, but there is a provision granted that we can +grant immunity from prosecution. If you feel that there will be some +evidence that you wouldn't want to give for one reason or another, we +have authority to grant immunity from prosecution. I don't have that +authority here, but--and I do want to make it clear that you can have +a right to have an attorney present, and many of the witnesses do +have attorneys. Now, on the other extreme, if you would like to have +a public hearing, we will open the hearing up to the public, but we +haven't done it as a matter of routine except upon request, because we +thought that most people prefer not to have it conducted in public, but +that has been done, and we can do that. + +Mr. MILLER. I still don't understand the reason of it. Are you going to +use this thing to try to prosecute me? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. + +Mr. MILLER. What are you going to use it for? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. We have no authority to prosecute anyone except for +perjury before the Commission. Now, we--our instructions are--let me +get a copy of the resolutions. Let me suggest that we handle it this +way. I have got a copy here of the resolutions, Executive order signed +by President Johnson, and the joint resolutions of Congress. The rules +of the Commission and a memorandum dated March 20, 1964, from Mr. +Rankin, who is the General Counsel of the Commission authorizing Mr. +Hubert and me to administer your oath and take your deposition. Now, +I think that what I prefer to do here so that you can be sure what +you want to do, and I don't want to put you under any pressure. Now, +I would like to give you this and have you try to find another room +out here and look at this, and read it over, and think about this and +ponder it as long as you want, and I want to give you assurance that +I am going to call another--I am going to call Officer Montgomery in +here and proceed with him. I am not going to tell him that I have not +completed your deposition or anything like that. I want to be sure that +as far as anybody is concerned whatsoever, what has transpired here is +completely routine so that any decision you make, I can give you as +much assurance as possible---- + +Mr. MILLER. All I wanted to know is the purpose of the thing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well---- + +Mr. MILLER. And if I find out we can go on with it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you go ahead and read this and let me go ahead +with Montgomery, and if you want I will tell Montgomery that you went +on. + +Mr. MILLER. Well, now, do you want me to come back some more, or what? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I'd like---- + +Mr. MILLER. What time is it now? It is 4:15. I am due at home at 4:30. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to take that away, and I think that maybe +it would be better if you waited around. Could you call your wife and +meet me back here at 5 o'clock, and why don't you wait for me in my +office? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, now, could we get on with the thing? I am trying to +explain to you, I have got small kids be coming home from school and---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Well, would you rather think about it and come +back some---- + +Mr. MILLER. Well, if we can't take care of it today, I would like to +come back tomorrow. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I can go ahead, you know. I want to make sure that +you are satisfied in your own mind about everything before we start to +ask any questions, and if you have any reservations or questions that I +haven't answered I want you to look at those materials, and I would be +happy to set it up for tomorrow if you would prefer to do it that way. + +Mr. MILLER. I sure would. + +Mt. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you--let's see, you would want to take +that home with you, wouldn't you? Let me do this. Let's go back to our +office and let me get the girl to Xerox off another copy of this. + +Mr. MILLER. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And let us set this up for 8:30. What time are you on duty +tomorrow? + +Mr. MILLER. 8. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the easiest way for you to handle it? + +Mr. MILLER. You mean time? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. MILLER. Probably 9 o'clock would be the easiest. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you come in at 9 o'clock then? + +Mr. MILLER. Okay. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. That's all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LOUIS D. MILLER RESUMED + +The testimony of Louis D. Miller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I might state for the record and for your information, Mr. +Ward, Mr. Miller, and I talked on the record a short while yesterday +afternoon, and I don't believe that, when I was talking with him, that +his name was entered into the record, so I think what you will have +to do is get in touch with the court reporter--is it Iris Lennon or +Leonard?--and find out from her just where that is so that these two +different sections can appear together. + +Before I ask you to be sworn, Mr. Miller, I want to ask you if there +are any questions that I can--that you have of me, I can tell you +anything further about the nature of the investigation that is going on +here? + +Mr. MILLER. No; and had you explained to me yesterday what kind of +information you were taking, what it would be used for, anything at all +about it before you started to swear me in, I believe we would have got +a lot further yesterday than we did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to raise your right hand and be sworn? +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? + +Mr. MILLER. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your name, please? + +Mr. MILLER. Louis D. Miller. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how do you spell that? + +Mr. MILLER. [Spelling] L-o-u-i-s. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Miller? + +Mr. MILLER. 1231 Ravina Drive, Garland, Tex. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born? + +Mr. MILLER. September 4, 1930. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? + +Mr. MILLER. City of Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long have you been with the Dallas Police +Department? + +Mr. MILLER. Since August 1955. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what is your rank in the department? + +Mr. MILLER. Detective. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you assigned to any particular bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. Juvenile bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. Since October of last year. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you before that? + +Mr. MILLER. Radio patrol division. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Whose platoon did you work on? + +Mr. MILLER. The last platoon that I worked on was Captain Souter's. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I understand that you were off duty on Friday, +November 22, is that right, of last year? + +Mr. MILLER. The best that I remember, yes, I was off the day the +President was shot. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about the next day, Saturday, November the 23d, +were you on duty or off duty that day? + +Mr. MILLER. On Saturday, I should have worked. I don't remember +specifically any particular incident that happened that day that would +bring to my mind that I did work. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there any reason for you to think that you didn't +work that day? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any records of any sort back at the police +department or notes that you have maintained which would indicate +whether or not you worked? + +Mr. MILLER. There should be some, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of records would those be? + +Mr. MILLER. Offenses that was assigned to me, prisoners handled. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you could, when you return to the police +department, if you could check to see if those records are available +and provide copies of them to us, or if you can't make the copies, why +if you will provide us with the originals, why we will make the copy +and return the originals to you. Would you be willing to do that? + +Mr. MILLER. If I could. I would have to look through things that I have +in my locker, a place there, and see if I have any there that were +assigned to me on that date, otherwise it would be next to impossible, +and see what prisoners I did handle. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you supposed to make a report at the end of the day as +to your activities? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don't want you--I am not asking you to go through +that and see what prisoners you handled if you can't find it readily, +but it would be easy to find some record of whether you were on duty at +all, wouldn't it? + +Mr. MILLER. It would be marked in the duty book. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, check that and let us know, and +if you do have any notes that pertain to those days, I would appreciate +that, also. All right. Now, do you have any recollection of when you +first heard in any way that Lee Harvey Oswald might be moved to the +Dallas County Jail? + +Mr. MILLER. No; I don't remember when I heard it or how I heard it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall coming to work Sunday morning on the 24th? + +Mr. MILLER. I remember being at work. As to the time that I came to +work, no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time you usually report to work? + +Mr. MILLER. I usually get in the office sometime between 7 and 7:30 and +some days earlier than that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any reason to think you arrived any later than +7:30---- + +Mr. MILLER. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On Sunday? + +Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on it because I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ride to work when you come, take public +transportation, or do you drive? + +Mr. MILLER. I drive. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you drive in alone or with somebody else? + +Mr. MILLER. I drive in alone. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Alone? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Sunday, do you recall whether you drove in alone +or with somebody else? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't recall driving in at all that day, as far as that +goes, but I am sure that I did, and I am sure I drove alone. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did in the early morning when you +got to work on that Sunday? + +Mr. MILLER. Nothing definite, no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you report up to the third floor to the juvenile +bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did when you got to the juvenile +bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir; nothing definite. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you have some indefinite ideas of what +happened up there? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, I can tell you what I usually do when I come up. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this a usual day? + +Mr. MILLER. As far as I was concerned, in my business, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the people who were on duty up there on +Sunday morning? + +Mr. MILLER. Let's see. Detective Goolsby, Detective Cutchshaw, +[spelling] C-u-t--I believe he spells his name [spelling] +C-u-t-c-h-a-w. I am not sure about that spelling. Detective Lowery. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else? + +Mr. MILLER. Cutchshaw, Lowery, Officer J. W. Harrison. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that "Blackie" Harrison? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes; and Policewoman McLine [spelling] M-c-L-i-n-e. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Policewoman McLine attached to the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The people that you have listed, is that the full staff of +people who are on duty regularly at that time or are there other people +also ordinarily who would be on duty? + +Mr. MILLER. No; who is on duty would depend on the days off. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were any other people, whose +names you might not recall, who were also on duty in the juvenile +bureau that day? + +Mr. MILLER. Captain Martin that day, the best that I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see him up in the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you can think of? + +Mr. MILLER. No; that I can think of. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got up to the juvenile bureau that morning, +did you talk to any of these people? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to up there? + +Mr. MILLER. I probably talked to everybody that was there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you arrived, were there television cameras +on the third floor hallway? + +Mr. MILLER. The best that I remember, there were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether or not those TV cameras were manned? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember definitely whether they were or not, but I +don't believe so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you give us some sort of idea of how +crowded the hallways, that hallway was, when you arrived for work in +the morning? + +Mr. MILLER. It wasn't crowded at all when I arrived at work. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you been there before when it was more crowded +than that? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to Saturday, can you give us a +description of what the status of that hallway was on Saturday? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any definite time or whether it was +Saturday, but I had been in the hallway when it was almost impassable. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the police department on Friday at all? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand at the time that you remember this hallway +being impassable was sometime before you arrived for work on Sunday? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have had to have been Saturday? + +Mr. MILLER. It probably was on Saturday, but I don't remember. I +can't remember that it was definitely Saturday or any certain time on +Saturday. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it would have been on Friday? + +Mr. MILLER. No; it wasn't on Friday, because I didn't go near the +police station on Friday. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were in the homicide or in the juvenile +bureau on Sunday, did any newspaper people or radio or TV people come +into the juvenile bureau for any purpose? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any specific ones coming in, but they were +in and out, so I am sure they did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was their purpose in coming in and out? + +Mr. MILLER. They usually come in to use the telephone. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you people able to conduct your activities in +the juvenile bureau with these newspaper people coming in and out? + +Mr. MILLER. They didn't interfere with my business. As far as the other +people assigned to the bureau, I don't know whether they interfered +with them or not. I couldn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business were you transacting in the morning, +Sunday morning? + +Mr. MILLER. Just routine work is all I recall. If you would give me +something definite to go on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were you investigating any particular cases? + +Mr. MILLER. At what time? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you went down to the basement. + +Mr. MILLER. Prior to that time, an officer had brought in two small +children, as I recall. I don't now remember what they were brought in +for, but I was working them, doing the paper work on them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you got up to the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. That was later on in the morning, the best I remember, and +I was working on the paperwork on them when I was told to report to the +basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to bringing in those two children, did you talk with +anybody in the juvenile bureau about the prospective move of Lee Harvey +Oswald to the Dallas County Jail? + +Mr. MILLER. I could have. I don't recall it, though. In fact, I didn't +even know that--for sure that Oswald was still in our jail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, you heard the newspaper reporters come in and +out of the office, didn't you? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any specific incident of when they came in +and out. Like I said, they probably did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear them talk on the telephone? + +Mr. MILLER. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you close enough to them to hear what they were +saying? + +Mr. MILLER. I didn't try to hear them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you close enough to hear them if you had tried to +hear them? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't recall it if I was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts in the juvenile bureau did you work that day? + +Mr. MILLER. We have several desks up there, and it is possible that I +worked at all of them some time during the day. I don't remember any +particular desk or anything like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the juvenile bureau, is it one large room or does +it have a series of rooms in it or what? + +Mr. MILLER. It has several rooms, I would say. It has a reception +office affair in front, and the captain's office is off of that, and +then a short hallway, and the lieutenant's office, there is a holdover +room for children, and then the main office, and then off of the main +office we have two interrogation rooms. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a desk in any one of those offices +assigned to you? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the newspaper reporters, did they come into the main +office on Sunday? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't recall any specific incident where they came in, +but I feel sure that they did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you work at any time out in the front office or +the reception area? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't recall whether I did or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you were requested to go down +into the basement? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what is your best estimate of when that was? + +Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't have any idea. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you got this request, had you been down in the +basement that day? + +Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I had, but I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were asked to prepare a report of your activities +on the 24th, isn't that right, the police department? + +Mr. MILLER. I was asked to write a letter and put in the information of +what position I was in down in the basement at the time Oswald was shot +and things of that nature, not everything that I did that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you requested to make this report? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember what day it was. I don't believe it was on +that Sunday. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you were told to do when you were +asked to make out the report? + +Mr. MILLER. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who instructed you to make out the report? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't recall who that was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was it just a general announcement that was made by +one of the chiefs or did somebody in particular approach you? + +Mr. MILLER. It was probably someone in particular, but I don't recall +who it was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss this report with anybody before you made +it? + +Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but I don't recall it if I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it on the 24th that asked you to go down into the +basement? + +Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, it was kind of a general announcement. +Who came up and requested or ordered, or however you wanted to put it, +all of the men to go to the basement, I don't know who that was. As I +say, I was working the papers, typing. I had my---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you working at that time? + +Mr. MILLER. I was working in the main office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And who was in the main office with you at that time? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, since we had been instructed early in the morning to +remain in the office until further notice, I would have to assume that +all of the people assigned up there for that day were present. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody who was there? + +Mr. MILLER. The only one that I can recall specifically is Policewoman +McLine, because after this announcement, request, order, whatever it +was, was made for us to go to the basement, I asked her if she would +finish the paperwork on the two small children for me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Officer Lowery was still there? + +Mr. MILLER. No; I couldn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Officer McMillon? + +Mr. MILLER. Officer McMillon doesn't work out of our office, so I am +sure he wasn't there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Harrison? + +Mr. MILLER. Officer Harrison works out of our office, and he was +on duty that day, but as far as remembering it, anyone other than +Policewoman McLine in particular, I couldn't do it, because I don't +know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what did you do--well, this person who came into +your--who requested that you go down, did that person actually walk +into the juvenile bureau office? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't know, because I didn't see him and I didn't hear +him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, who told you? Who did you hear the request +from to go down? + +Mr. MILLER. Policewoman McLine, I believe it was, the best I remember, +said something about all men have to go to the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at that point, did you walk down to the basement? + +Mr. MILLER. I walked down the hall and caught the elevator to the +basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down with anybody? + +Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, the elevator was full. As far as +remembering any one particular person that was on the elevator, I +couldn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you walk out of the juvenile bureau with anybody? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but I don't recall any particular person +that I walked out with. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how many people you walked out with? + +Mr. MILLER. I sure don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Officer McLine, Policewoman McLine, told you that you +were supposed to go to the basement, what did she say? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't recall her specific words. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you why you were supposed to go down? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of why you were to go down? + +Mr. MILLER. No; I can't say that I actually did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked down to the basement, did you look into the +homicide bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't recall looking in there; no, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the basement, where did you go? + +Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, I was standing outside of the windows +there in the hallway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you got off the elevator, what did you do? + +Mr. MILLER. Walked over to this hallway where the windows and +telephones there are in the basement outside of the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet anybody down there when you got off of the +elevators before you got to that window, did you meet anybody down +there? + +Mr. MILLER. No particular person that I recall, although there were +several people there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive any instructions from anybody before you +went to this particular station that you mentioned? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know to walk over there? + +Mr. MILLER. I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to walk there? + +Mr. MILLER. There was no particular reason. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was this before Lee Harvey Oswald came down? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't recall how long. It would be hard to estimate it. +It could have been 10 minutes or it could have been longer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I have got another witness out here, Mr. Ward, and I think +maybe it might be well to take a break here a second. I want to talk to +this man. + +(Discussion off of the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller and I have been talking here for a few minutes +off of the record about some of the events prior to his going down into +the basement. + +Now, as I understand it, Mr. Miller, shortly after you got into the +office on Sunday morning, you went some place for some coffee? + +Mr. MILLER. I went to the Deluxe Diner on Commerce Street and had +breakfast. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who did you go over there with? + +Mr. MILLER. Officer Harrison. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time of the morning was that? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember a definite time, but it was probably +somewhere shortly after 8 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did anybody else go over there with you besides +Harrison? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This a place that you regularly go? + +Mr. MILLER. No; not regularly. Occasionally, we go over for a sandwich +or we phone for sandwiches and take them up to the office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you normally take a coffee break right after you go to +work? + +Mr. MILLER. Usually after we get our assignments in the morning, we +take a coffee break and go to work. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive assignments this morning when you came in? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't believe the deskman finished making assignments +when we went over to coffee. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the regular deskman? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. Usually we have a regular deskman, except his day off, +and on his days off, everyone takes a turn rotating working at the desk. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. What was the name of the deskman that day? + +Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, Detective Goolsby was on the desk that +day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where was this located on Commerce Street, this diner? + +Mr. MILLER. It is in the 2000 block, I believe it is, almost directly +across the street from the Statler Hotel. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many blocks would that be west of the police +department? + +Mr. MILLER. That would be in the first block. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went in there that morning, were you in uniform? + +Mr. MILLER. No. I never wear a uniform. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of the people who worked at that diner? + +Mr. MILLER. Only when I see them. Now, I know a colored boy's over +there first name. It is Jimmy, I believe, but I couldn't be definite on +that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he in there on that day? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember just exactly who it was on duty. There is +usually three or four working over there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you went in there, did they have +counters and--did they have a counter and tables and booths? + +Mr. MILLER. It is just a counter. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many people were working behind the counter that +day? + +Mr. MILLER. It would be hard to say. Like I was telling you a while +ago, there was usually maybe two, maybe four. It all depends on the +amount of business they expect, I suppose. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go in there often enough so that you were familiar +with any of the people waiting behind that counter although you might +not have known them by name but you would recognize them and they would +recognize you? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't think so. I doubt if I have been in there over a +half dozen times at the most. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison know any of the people in there? + +Mr. MILLER. I believe he did; yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I know you can't--I don't expect you to be a thousand +percent accurate on this, but do you have any idea which of the people +in there that he knew? + +Mr. MILLER. No. I have been over there with Officer Harrison, and he +usually speaks to, like this one colored boy, and I believe his name +is Jimmy or Tommy or something like that. I couldn't be sure on that, +but usually speak to him. And when we call up for sandwiches, Officer +Harrison has called up there once or twice to have them make sandwiches +and pick them up, and he usually asks for this one particular boy over +there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who suggested going over there for coffee that morning? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember whether I suggested it or whether Officer +Harrison did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, who suggested going out for coffee? + +Mr. MILLER. Like I say, I don't remember whether I did or whether he +did. It would be hard to say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did either you or Officer Harrison ask anybody else in the +juvenile bureau to go out for coffee with you? + +Mr. MILLER. We probably did, but I don't remember it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got over there, how long did you stay at the +diner? + +Mr. MILLER. Probably around 30 minutes at the most. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--what did you and Officer Harrison talk about +over there? + +Mr. MILLER. Now, I couldn't say. Couldn't say we talked about any one +thing in particular. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the investigation of Oswald? + +Mr. MILLER. We could have or we could have talked about Officer +Harrison's rabbit dogs or fishing or numerous things. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the movement of Oswald to the county +jail? + +Mr. MILLER. It is possible that we did, but as far as being definite on +it; I couldn't be. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with anybody else over there? + +Mr. MILLER. No one that I recall; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--did either of you receive a telephone call over +there? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who received the telephone call? + +Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, when the person that works there at +the diner answered the phone, he said, "Phoned for one of you," Officer +Harrison answered it and came back to the counter and said we were +to come back to the office as soon as we finished eating and were to +remain there until further notice. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who made the telephone call? + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir; he never did, and I never did ask him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether it was somebody from the police +department that made that call? + +Mr. MILLER. I presumed it was, but like I say, I never did ask Officer +Harrison who it was, and that would be the only ones that would be +likely to order us to return to the office and stay there until further +notice. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back to the office, did you have some +idea of why you were supposed to remain back there until further notice? + +Mr. MILLER. No; I couldn't say that I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison talk to you at all that day about +Jack Ruby? + +Mr. MILLER. You mean prior to---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time. + +Mr. MILLER. No; I don't think so. I couldn't be definite on that, +either, but I am sure he didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know prior to the time that Ruby shot Oswald that +Officer Harrison knew Jack Ruby? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Officer Harrison? + +Mr. MILLER. I have probably seen him around the police department ever +since I have been here. As far as actually knowing the man, I didn't up +until the time I went to work up in the juvenile bureau in October. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ever, prior to the time that Ruby shot Oswald, +had you ever gone any place socially with Harrison? + +Mr. MILLER. No. The best I remember, when I first came to work down +here, Officer Harrison was riding a motorcycle and I worked in radio +patrol, and the only time you can probably see each other would be +passing, maybe down in the locker room, something like that, and then +he did work out at the pistol range for a while, and when I would go to +the pistol range, I would see him out there, but as far as talking to +him or going any place with him, no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever engaged in any business enterprises with him? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him any way other than in the capacity as a +fellow police officer? + +Mr. MILLER. That is the only way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anything else happen before you went down into +the basement on Sunday morning that you can remember? + +Mr. MILLER. I can remember those 2 children that were brought in and +working--I remember working on the papers pertaining to them and I +remember asking Policewoman McLine, after we had been told to go to the +basement, if she would finish the papers for me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else that happened or anything +else that was said? + +Mr. MILLER. That is prior to going to the basement? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk with Officer +Harrison? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did. In fact, after this was all over up there, +I rode out to Love Field with Officer Harrison, so I am sure I did talk +to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you talk to him about what had happened there in +the basement? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure we did; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him whether he saw Ruby at any time before +Ruby shot Oswald? + +Mr. MILLER. No; I don't believe I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him about how Ruby got down into the +basement? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure we discussed it; yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember about that? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember anything definite, but I believe that more +than likely everybody up there was wondering how he got down in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, immediately after Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do? + +Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, at the time that this happened, I was +walking or trying to walk down towards the corridor for cars to go +through in behind of the officers and Oswald when they came out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to know what you did after Ruby was shot. + +Mr. MILLER. After Ruby was shot? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; or Oswald was shot. + +Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, someone, seemed like, hit Ruby from +behind and pushed him forward. Like I said, I was trying to move that +way when this happened, so I grabbed a hold of Ruby and helped take him +into the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you--were you with Ruby in the jail office when +there were a lot of officers around him? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby put up any sort of a struggle there in the jail +office? + +Mr. MILLER. No; none that I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you--did you have physical hold of Ruby in the jail +office? + +Mr. MILLER. When we got into the jail office; yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Ruby say anything? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say? + +Mr. MILLER. As to definite words, I could give you what he said as best +I remember it, but it may not be his exact words. It could be that he +put some more words in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. + +Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, he said something about--well, first +off, somebody asked, "Who is he?" And he said, "Oh, hell! You guys +know me. I am Jack Ruby." And the best I remember, he said something +about, "I hope the son of a bitch dies," and something about, "It will +save you guys a lot of trouble," or, "It will save everybody a lot of +trouble," something like that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who it was that said, "Who is it?" + +Mr. MILLER. No; I sure don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else that was said while Ruby was +there in the jail office? + +Mr. MILLER. No; because right after that he was moved over to the jail +elevator and was being taken upstairs, and I went out in the basement, +the garage part of the basement, again. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Ruby searched in the jail office while you were +there? + +Mr. MILLER. A quick search, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. A pat-down? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his pockets emptied? + +Mr. MILLER. Not that I remember; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was +taken upstairs? + +Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on that, because the best I remember +it, about the time he was being taken over to the elevator or shortly +after, the ambulance came in and picked Oswald up, and I went back +out into the basement to help try to keep this crowd of reporters or +photographers and what-not out of the way so that they could get the +ambulance in and Oswald loaded into it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain out there in the basement +area assisting with the photographers? + +Mr. MILLER. I would say maybe 45 minutes to an hour. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you there when Officer Dean was interviewed on +television? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember Officer Dean being interviewed; no. After +the ambulance got out, I went up to the ramp on the Commerce Street +side. There were several people up there who claimed to be reporters +and photographers and what-not trying to get down into the basement and +trying to force their way in, and I went up to assist with that problem. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from the time that Ruby was taken +upstairs and all of the time you were down there in the basement, did +you talk with anybody about how Ruby got into the basement? + +Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but I don't--like I say, I don't +remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any rumors that you heard at that time +about how he got in? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any rumors circulated at that time as to how he +got in? + +Mr. MILLER. There was one that I remember, that he might have +been--came in helping a crew with a television camera that came from +the basement proper there out into the garage part. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear that rumor while you were down in the +basement? + +Mr. MILLER. I believe I did, but I couldn't be definite about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison stay down there in the basement with +you? + +Mr. MILLER. No; I don't believe he did. Now, he could have, but I don't +think so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer McMillon? + +Mr. MILLER. I didn't--I don't remember seeing Officer McMillon in the +basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Lowery? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished down there in the +basement? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, after things quieted down up there at the Commerce +Street side, I went back up to the juvenile bureau. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do up there in the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite about it. I probably worked on some +reports, but as to definite---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody up there about how Ruby got into +the basement? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but as far as remembering any particular +person that I talked to or how it was discussed, I couldn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there in the juvenile bureau when you got back? + +Mr. MILLER. Policewoman McLine is the only one that I could say that +was definitely there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Officer Harrison at that time? + +Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lowery? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't know where they were. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when was the first time that you saw Officer Harrison +after the shooting? + +Mr. MILLER. It was later, but as to giving you a definite time on it +from the time that this happened until we came back up to the office, +it would be hard to do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you first see him? + +Mr. MILLER. Back in the office, I believe, the best I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you saw him? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any particular thing that we did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain up in the office? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, the biggest part of the day. Captain Jones, I believe +it was, came down and told me to remain in the office until further +notice again, that I was to remain there until further notice, and +then--let's see--someone else came down shortly after that and had me +go down to the chief's office. I went down there, and Captain Jones +told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and remain until he called +for me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you wanted for in the chief's office? + +Mr. MILLER. No one ever said, and apparently it was a mixup in the +orders there, or something of that nature. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually talk with Jones when you got down there +to the chief's office? + +Mr. MILLER. Only that he told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and +wait until he notified me, that he had an assignment for me and he was +going to notify me what it was later. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did you remain back in the juvenile +office? + +Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say definitely. I know later on that afternoon, +I believe it was Officer Harrison and Detectives Cutchshaw and Lowery, +the best I remember, and myself, were called down to the chief's office +and given an assignment, but what time it was, a definite time, I +presume it would have been around 4 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And who gave you the assignment? + +Mr. MILLER. Chief Stevenson, the best I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you sent to? + +Mr. MILLER. I was sent to Love Field. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the four of you all go out to Love Field? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you to do out there at Love Field? + +Mr. MILLER. We were to check around the American Airlines ticket office +and watch proceedings around there, around the ticket counter, out +there around the American Airlines ticket counter, the best I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you looking for? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, after we had left the chief's office, we started out +to Love Field, and Captain Martin called us back into the basement, +and, the best I remember, he told us that Mayor Cabell had been +scheduled to go to Washington, or some place, on an airplane, and +they had had a call that there had been a bomb placed on the plane or +was going to be a bomb placed on it, or something of that nature, and +I believe it was because of this that we were sent out to American +Airlines, and my understanding is that the mayor was supposed to have +left on a Braniff plane and changed it and left on an American Airlines +plane later. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you looking for around the American Airlines +office? + +Mr. MILLER. Anyone that might have been carrying a gun or a bomb or +anything of that nature. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have a description of anyone in particular to look +for? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you all talk about on the way out there in +the car? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure we talked about this shooting. Again, I couldn't +be definite on it. Like I say, I am sure everybody in the department +was talking about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear in the car about how Ruby was shot, how +Oswald was shot? + +Mr. MILLER. You mean--well. Officer Harrison and myself were in one car +and Detectives Lowery and Cutchshaw in another car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear--what did you hear from Harrison as to +how---- + +Mr. MILLER. Again, I couldn't be definite on any part of the +conversation. Like I say, I am sure we discussed the thing and talked +about it, but as to any definite words, I couldn't be sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, there are various rumors that have circulated about +how Ruby got into the basement, and I am sure you are familiar with all +of them. + +Mr. MILLER. Well, now---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which of the rumors did you discuss in the automobile that +you can remember? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, the best I remember, the only rumor I had heard up +until that time had been the one that Ruby had come in with this camera +crew. Again, I can't be definite, but I believe it was on Monday, the +following day, that I heard this rumor, whatever it was, that he had +entered off---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The Main Street ramp? + +Mr. MILLER. The Main Street ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out there--when you saw Cutchshaw and +Lowery out there at the American Airlines, did you discuss with them +this rumor about coming in with the camera? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure we did, but again I couldn't--any definite words +that were said or anything like that, I couldn't be sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody in that group saying that he saw a +man come by with a camera? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, the best I remember, Detective Lowery, I believe it +was, said something about this camera coming by, and I vaguely remember +the camera coming by myself, but as far as a number of men and who they +were that were bringing this camera in, again I couldn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Harrison? Did he indicate at that time that he +remembered the camera? + +Mr. MILLER. Not that I recall; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Cutchshaw? + +Mr. MILLER. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So Lowery was the only one that you can remember talking +about the camera, having seen this camera come by? + +Mr. MILLER. He is the only one that I recall, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else you want to tell us about the +events of Sunday, November 24th? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, I don't remember anything that I could tell. If I was +asked a question on it and knew the answer on it, I would be more than +glad to answer the question. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any rumors concerning anyone who might have +seen Ruby down in the basement prior to the shooting of Oswald? (Pause) +Is your answer "No"? + +Mr. MILLER. That is right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell me. Were you down in the basement when Rio Pierce's +car drove out of the basement? + +Mr. MILLER. I remember a car driving out, which would be the wrong way +up towards Main Street, but as far as remembering who was driving the +car, I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing when that car drove out? + +Mr. MILLER. I was standing by the door to the jail office, the door +that comes out into the garage portion of the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who stationed you there? + +Mr. MILLER. Nobody. Like I was telling you before, we were out in this +hallway, windows, jail office. Someone that was already out in the +garage part of the basement, I presume, passed back instructions for +everybody to go out and line up on both sides of this hallway affair +that comes out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you received those instructions? + +Mr. MILLER. I was standing in this hallway outside of the jail office +windows there. There is those double doors, swinging doors that come +out into the garage portion of the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the garage side of the swinging doors? + +Mr. MILLER. No; in the basement proper. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before Oswald came down? + +Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on that, but it wasn't very long, +possibly 10 minutes. I don't believe it could have been any longer than +that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, where did you go to? + +Mr. MILLER. From the basement proper, after the orders was passed +back to go outside and line up on both sides, I got on what would be +the north side of this little hallway in the garage portion of the +basement, where the ramp comes in, through the hallway that comes out +there, I was on the north side of that and would be on the east side of +the door that goes into the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you keeping an eye out in the basement for people +who might obstruct Oswald? + +Mr. MILLER. Pardon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you keeping a look, a watch out, from your position +for people who might try to obstruct Oswald? + +Mr. MILLER. I was kind of watching the crowd and that, but as far as +having a feeling that anything was going to happen or---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were watching the crowd? + +Mr. MILLER. As to orders to do any particular thing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the crowd that you were watching? + +Mr. MILLER. They were across the ramp that goes down through there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they up against the railing? + +Mr. MILLER. Part of them were up against the railing, part of them, the +best I remember, on the east side of the railing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about, were the people strung across the Main +Street ramp from the direction of the jail house, the jail office, to +the railing? + +Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, there was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, how many lines deep would you say there were +of people along--crossing the Main Street ramp on the north side just +before Oswald came out? + +Mr. MILLER. I recall of people being there, but as to how many rows +there were or a definite number of people, it would be hard to say. +The only thing on that that I could say definitely was that there were +people there, and as to how many, it would just be next to impossible +to say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as Pierce's car came out, what did you do? As +Pierce's car came out of the garage, what did you do? + +Mr. MILLER. I didn't do anything that I remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you look at it? + +Mr. MILLER. I remember seeing a car going out the wrong way up to Main +Street, but as far as looking in the---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch it go up the ramp? + +Mr. MILLER. No; because once it passes this wall there, it passes out +of view. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep an eye on the newsmen in that area as they +re-formed? + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but looking over the crowd and everything, +it would be hard not to see them re-form, or whatever you call it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Blackie Harrison standing when Pierce's car went +out? + +Mr. MILLER. I didn't see Officer Harrison that I remember when this car +drove out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Officer Harrison at any time down in the +basement after you took your position along the north wall just outside +of the jail office? + +Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but as far as remembering seeing +him or saying anything to him after that, I couldn't say definitely. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked for purposes +of identification as Miller Exhibits 5013 and 5014. Now, Exhibit 5013 +is a copy of a report made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin of an +interview that they had with you on December 3, 1963, and Exhibit 5014 +is a copy of a statement that you made or a letter that you addressed +to Chief Curry on November 26, 1963, entitled, "Subject: Shooting of +Harvey Oswald." I am going to ask you to take these and go out into the +other office and look them over and then let me know whether there are +any additions, corrections, changes of any sort that you would want to +make in those. + +(Recess.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. For your purposes, Mr. Ward, may I say that we have Mr L. +D. Miller back with us. + +And have you had a chance to look over Exhibits 5013 and 5014? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. To your recollection, are those accurate reports +of--looking at 5013, the FBI report, is that an accurate report of what +you told the FBI at that time? + +Mr. MILLER. Well, there is part of it in here that is a little +confusing. It could mean one thing and then it could mean another. +Now---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that interview? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And are you able to state from your memory whether that is +an accurate report of what you told them at that time? + +Mr. MILLER. There is one part in here. Let me find it. It was, when the +officers were sent to the ramp area prior to Oswald being brought down, +there were officers stationed on both sides of the ramp. The officers +that came down were stationed on both sides of the ramp. I don't recall +telling the FBI that there were already officers stationed there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me see if there was some way you can mark +that on there. Where is this? + +Mr. MILLER. Right here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take this, take my pen, and amend that +so that it reflects what your best recollection is that you told them +at that time? + +Mr. MILLER. Let's see. Where do you want me to put it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You can either write it down below---- + +Mr. MILLER. The whole thing would have to be reworded. This like this +makes more sense to me what I told them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have written there, "The officers that were +sent to the ramp area prior to Oswald being brought down were stationed +on both sides of the ramp." Were you present when the instructions were +given to the officers generally as to where to go? + +Mr. MILLER. To line up on both sides---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes? + +Mr. MILLER. Of the ramp area where Oswald was to be brought through. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Were you present at that time? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who gave those instructions? + +Mr. MILLER. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you were told to do, if anything, +when Oswald got to you? + +Mr. MILLER. I wasn't told what to do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any other corrections that you want to make +in that? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. "Miller said he had no other pertinent information +concerning the shooting of Oswald." I wasn't asked if I had any more +information to give to them. I answered their questions, the questions +they asked me. They did not ask me if I had any other pertinent +information to add. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you change that on there, then, and +state, cross that out, and put something through there and say, "I was +not asked if I had pertinent information"? Now, did you in fact at that +time have pertinent information, other than what they asked you about? + +Mr. MILLER. None that I knew of. It is like now. It could be possible +that you would ask me a question that I would remember something other +than what I have told you, but I wouldn't know what it would be. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any other corrections that you want to +make on this FBI report? + +Mr. MILLER. Everything else on it looks like it is just about the way +it should be. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you, then, initial the corrections that you have +made on here and date it? + +Mr. MILLER. Where do you want it initialed? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other place, right next to it. And will you initial +the other correction, date it? + +Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 5014, and is that a true and +accurate copy of the letter that you wrote to Chief Curry on November +26? + +Mr. MILLER. That is right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you sign that letter and date it, sign the +piece of paper somewhere down there near the bottom and date it, and +would you sign over here on Exhibit 5013, the point where I identified +the document, would you write, sign your name, and date it? + +Now, let me ask you one final thing. I take it that you have told us +everything at this time that you can remember about the events that I +have questioned you about? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have mentioned everything to us at this point that +you can remember which you think is pertinent to our investigation? + +Mr. MILLER. Everything that I know of. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if anything else in the future comes to your +attention that you think might be pertinent to this investigation, +would you come forward and tell us about it? + +Mr. MILLER. Yes; sure will. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Okay. Thank you very much. + +Mr. MILLER. Do you want me to call you, if I check, bring the book up +to the office? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did work that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, bring the book to us. + +Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't be allowed to bring the book out of the office. +It carries the duties time. Everybody's name is in the same book. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, call us and let us know the +pertinent details. + +Mr. MILLER. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. NEWMAN + +The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 11 p.m., on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Newman, my name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of +the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission +was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson on +November 29th, 1963, and under a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. +The Commission has prescribed a set of rules of procedure. Pursuant to +those rules I have been authorized to take your sworn deposition. + +I want to tell you a little bit about what the general nature of the +inquiry is. Of course, this was set up, as you know, after President +Kennedy was assassinated and Lee Oswald died. Our instructions are to +investigate, evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the +facts surrounding the assassination of the President and the murder of +Lee Oswald. + +Now, that includes going into the background of Oswald and Ruby, their +associations and their motives anything that you can think of about +them. We have no authority to send anybody to jail, except for perjury. +We are not like the grand jury, in the sense if we find a crime, and we +are not conducting this examination with the thought that anybody else +is going to use this information to prosecute for crimes of anybody +except for perjury. + +The most important motivating force, I think, in this investigation +is one of national security, not only from the standpoint of finding +out as much as we can so that we can learn how to prevent all of +the occurrences that have taken place in the last four months from +ever happening again, but also, so we can determine if there is any +possibility that there was more than one person involved with either +one of these two men. + +Now, we have asked you to appear here primarily to develop facts +in connection with the murder of Oswald, but if you have any sort +of information that would be relevant to the entire scope of our +investigation, we would like to have it. + +Now, in particular you have been asked to appear here by virtue +of a general request which was made by the General Counsel of the +Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry, a letter was sent to +Chief Curry and a whole list of names was on that letter, and we +indicated that we were going to examine these people. Under the rules +of the Commission, you are entitled to receive 3-day written notice +personally from the Commission, and that hasn't been sent to you. +However, you may waive that notice, and some people insist on it and +others don't. It doesn't make any difference to us, but I would ask you +now whether you would like us to give you the written notice or whether +you are willing to waive the written notice? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I will be willing to waive it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I notice that you don't have an attorney here, and +that you are also permitted to have an attorney in any appearance +before us, and if you have any thought that this would be something +that you think would be desirable, don't hesitate to say so, because, +again, many people have had attorneys here, even down here in Dallas, +and we would be happy to go home and go to bed tonight and take up at a +more convenient time. + +Do you want an attorney? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to ask you to raise your right hand and be +sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your full name, please? + +Mr. NEWMAN. William J. Newman. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And when were you born, Mr. Newman? + +Mr. NEWMAN. January 31, 1937. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. NEWMAN. My street address? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. NEWMAN. 10923 Cotillion. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Cotillion? + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Nods head.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what's your occupation? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I am a mechanical engineer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Ling-Temco-Vought. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Ling-Temco--L-i-n--[spelling]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. L-i-n-g T-e-m-c-o V-o-u-g-h-t [spelling]. Three words. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 6 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you also a member of the Dallas Police Reserve? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a member of the police reserve? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, 18 months. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you, are you a graduate engineer? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I am not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many years of education have you had? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I had a year and a half. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Of college? + +Mr. NEWMAN. College education. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you attend college? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Arlington State. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that at Arlington, Tex. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right here in the general area of Dallas? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; it's midway between Dallas and Fort Worth. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of courses did you take at Arlington State? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Just general engineering courses. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed at Ling-Temco-Vought? + +Mr. NEWMAN. About 6 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And, can you tell us something about the nature of your +duties with your employer? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I'm a design engineer and lead man. I am responsible for +four or five draftsmen on a given project. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean you are a design engineer; what sort of +things do you do? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, it's mechanical design of high-power transmitters, +radar transmitters, mostly, electronic circuits. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you put things on drawing boards? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you work from plans that other people draw up or +plans that other people conceive, or are you responsible to come up +with ideas? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I work from an electrical schematic, and I am responsible +for the mechanical design and supervision of the other men, to make +sure this work is carried out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you work under a graduate engineer of some sort? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you go through a training program before you +became a member of the police reserves? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that training program? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 9 months. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how often did you go to school? + +Mr. NEWMAN. It was 2 hours a night, 1 night a week. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any compensation in connection with your +services on the police reserves? + +Mr. NEWMAN. None whatsoever. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why does anyone want to be a member of the police reserve? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, civic responsibility, I guess. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any little side benefits of any sort? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, yes. You mean in the way of favors, this type of +thing? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don't know, not necessarily that, but what---- + +Mr. NEWMAN. I enjoy it because I do office work, indoors, and this is a +way of getting out, little something to break the routine. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there favors and what not that you can get on account +of this? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, outside of maybe being overlooked of a traffic +violation, I don't know of any. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to paint yourself too good in this way, +because we had one guy who came in here and painted himself real good, +and found out that he was making a mistake. Maybe I am a great skeptic. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, it's like I say, in my case I have always been +interested in law enforcement and it is an outlet, hobby, so to speak. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to say this, I finished interviewing Captain +Arnett, and I found him to be a very fine gentleman, so on the basis +of my experience, I don't have any reason to make these comments. Now, +were you on duty with the reserves the day President Kennedy was shot? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was that evening. That was some 6 or 7 hours after the +assassination. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What time did you come on duty Friday evening? + +Mr. NEWMAN. 7 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got to the police station, who did you report to? + +Mr. NEWMAN. To Lieutenant Merrell. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you then assigned? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was then assigned to ride observation with the Radio +Patrol Squad 113. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did riding observation consist of? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this is our normal assignment. We don't normally take +part in police activities unless we are directed by a regular officer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were riding around in the district someplace? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this permit the regular officer to be relieved for +other duties? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No, it didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have had to come in on Friday night anyhow? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday night, on Saturday, were you at the +police department? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; none at all Saturday. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On Sunday, did you come in? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, how did you happen to get called in on +Sunday? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was called by Sergeant Sullivan. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time do you believe Lieutenant Merrell called +you? + +Mr. NEWMAN. It was approximately 8:30 or 9 a.m. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix that time? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I just say--I suppose it took me approximately an hour to +get down there and I arrived about 9:30. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You were called in the morning? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. 8:30 or 9 in the morning? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to the time that he called you in the morning, +had you heard anything about the possibility of moving Lee Oswald to +the county jail? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I knew he would be, of course, but I didn't know what +time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, on Friday night, were you on the third floor +at all? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; not at any time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you came in on Sunday where you +parked your automobile? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I parked it across the street from the police garage +on Canton. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On what street? + +Mr. NEWMAN. On Canton, C-a-n-t-o-n [spelling]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And, is that north, south, east, or west of the---- + +Mr. NEWMAN. It's immediately south of the downtown area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far from Commerce Street; how many blocks from +Commerce Street? + +Mr. NEWMAN. As I recall, I think it's 3 blocks. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And is a police garage there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you walk up Harwood? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what entrance you entered? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I entered Commerce Street door that leads into the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any recollection of whether there were +any TV wires strung through there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; there was a large van parked on Commerce Street, on +the corner of Commerce and Harwood, and there was all kinds of cables. +I don't recall whether there were any going in that door or not. There +might have been, possibly. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any TV cables coming down the Commerce Street +ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not to my recollection. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you spent some time after you were placed on +duty over in the garage area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as I understand it, close to Commerce Street? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were guarding the door to the enginerooms, in that +general area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, the first thing, when I first got there, I was +assigned to help search the automobiles that were parked in the garage. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to get to that. I am going to go a little +backwards on this. + +Mr. NEWMAN. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to get the questioning. Where you were finally +stationed prior to the time Oswald was shot, was that near the +entrance, the doorway to the engineroom? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to get a map, diagram here, and I would +like for you to try to think back to that. I am going to mark this +Newman Exhibit 5037. Now, Mr. Newman, this is a copy of the diagram of +the basement area of the Police and Court Building in Dallas. I will +try to explain it to you, and then if you have any questions, why, I +will try to answer those. But you see in this area is the jail office, +Harwood is off in this direction. There is Main, there is Commerce +[indicating]. Now, this dotted line here running parallel to Commerce +Street is actually the outside wall above ground level, and here would +be Commerce Street, if you were at ground level, here would be the +sidewalk, here would be the outside wall. However, when you are in the +basement, this diagram purports to represent anyhow, that the basement +wall is this solid black line over here, and I presume that that's +true, although I have never checked it myself. + +Mr. NEWMAN. It looks to be. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do--these other black marks around here represent +posts [indicating]. Now, would you indicate on this diagram where it +was that you were stationed by--well, where it was you were stationed +in connection with the security of the basement, after the search of +the basement? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was placed right at the place of this column. There is +what this is, isn't it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Do you want me to---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Just an "X" there [indicating]. Now, as you were standing +there, do you remember whether any TV cables ran through that general +area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. There were none there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There were none. Were there any TV cables that you could +see in the garage area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. By the garage area, you are talking about this area here +[indicating]? I didn't see any. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an arrow here that says "to engineroom." Are +you familiar with--is there a door over in that area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not a door as such. I don't believe it can be closed. It's +just an opening there [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an opening? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you can walk into the engineroom there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. Actually walk--in fact, I didn't even know it +was there until that morning, but you can walk onto a landing here and +then down. The engineroom is some 5 or 10 feet lower than that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stand in that general area all the time, from the +time that Sergeant Dean placed you there until Oswald was shot? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; there was one time when I was called back into the +assembly room, back over here. I think they needed some men somewhere +else. They picked four or five men and then I was returned to this +place [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would you estimate that +you were pulled off this spot temporarily? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, it must have been 45 minutes to an hour. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long were you away from the area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Five minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Let me mark on here pulled off for 5 minutes, 45 +minutes to 1 hour before Oswald shot [indicating]. Did anybody replace +you? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; they didn't--I better not make that statement. I am not +sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to go back and pick things up from the time +you entered. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Okay. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it when you arrived down there at the +building? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 9:30 a.m. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I went to the assembly room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the assembly room? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Just long enough to have my name in the unit taken down on +the roster. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Lieutenant Merrell called you, did he tell you why +you were to come down? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you? + +Mr. NEWMAN. He said that Oswald was to be transferred at 10 o'clock, +that they expected some crowds downtown and they thought they would +need our help, or a crowd was gathering, I think is what--the way he +had actually said it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his telling you the time would be 10 o'clock? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I happened to remember it because I had to rush to get down +there in time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything else? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; that was all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down there, did you receive any instructions +from somebody? + +Mr. NEWMAN. He and I walked out into the garage area there and we +talked to some--to Sergeant Dean then. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had the search of the garage already begun when you +arrived? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in connection with the search? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I searched--well, we looked inside all the automobiles. We +checked to make sure the trunk was locked, that the hood was securely +latched, and this general area right in here, there were three or four +of us working that area in there [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are talking now about the Commerce Street half of +the garage? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you do besides search the cars? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That was it, until I was assigned to that post. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see what Sergeant Dean did? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't. The only time I remember seeing him, they +found a sporting type rifle in a car somewhere. I think it was later +identified as belonging to one of the officers. I saw him walking out +with it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period you were standing there in the +garage, were you able to look over in the direction of the Main Street +ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see, during the period that you were in the +garage, any automobiles moved out of the garage? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down--was +brought down the ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't even know it was there. I couldn't see it from +my location. Well, the armored car wasn't brought down the ramp. It was +just backed to the door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever a time that you were aware there was an +armored car up there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not until after the shooting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing where you were standing was there anything that +happened, what you would estimate, a half hour before Oswald was shot, +that would be significant to fix the time? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; the only thing I can recall at all, there was a +pop-type noise in that area there. I found out later, when they opened +the door to the armored car a soft drink bottle had rolled out and +broken. That caused quite a commotion among the reporters and some of +them went up the ramp to see what happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you heard that pop-type noise, do you remember +anything else before that that might be significant? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. Other than the movement of the cars and the men in +there, I can't recall anything. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention then to the pop-type noise, +did you see any cars moved out of the basement after you heard the pop? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I am almost certain a car did leave after that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Saw a car leave or more than one car? + +Mr. NEWMAN. One is all I recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that car parked, if you recall? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I am not too sure of that. I think it was parked in +this area just to the bottom of this small ramp here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the map where you think that was? You +want to mark car? + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see that car move to? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, if its the one I am thinking about, they turned and +went out the Main Street side. I recall there was a car came in. I +think it was a squad that had a prisoner. I don't recall it leaving. It +may have. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you recall a car coming in, before or after that +car went out? + +Mr. NEWMAN. It must have been before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You say must have been, because somebody has told you that +a car went out there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; but I am sure--I do recall this car left--oh, not over +5 or 10 minutes, if that long, before Oswald was brought in, and I do +know that no other car left after that, or entered. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, do you remember two cars being moved out of the +garage up behind the armored van? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I recall one that was parked right here. I don't remember +whether there were two or not, but there was definitely one parked +right here on the level part of the ramp [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where that came from; where that car came from? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall, but I think it came from the parking area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't see it moved out of the parking area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. If I did, I don't recall. I am sure I did, but---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Sergeant Dean placed you in the basement, did you +recall where he placed any of the other men? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. The only one I remember was there was a +regular officer--I don't know who he was. He was in this approximate +area here. Do you want me to mark this [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead. Why don't you put a "R" for regular? + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there were any officers over +here by elevators Nos. 1 and 2 and the service elevator? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I am almost certain there weren't any in the garage area, +except he and I, immediately prior to the shooting. There was quite a +few moving around through there before that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before that were they moving around? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would say an hour before that, they were moving in +and out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But let's take the 10 or 15 minutes before the shooting. +Were there any men over by those elevators? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not except the one man. I assume that was his job. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The one man you have marked here with an "R"? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you able to tell whether these elevators No. 1 +and No. 2 were in operation? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; there is no way I had of knowing. I could see the +elevators, but I don't know whether they were in operation. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody go up or down those elevators in the +hour that you were at your position? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether or not this service elevator +was in operation? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't know either. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that service elevator? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state positively that there was nobody, +during the period you were here, who you saw in that service elevator? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. I couldn't say that. I just say I couldn't see anyone. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you, during the time you were stationed here, did +you see anybody come out of the engineroom area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from where you were stationed +if there was anybody in there, a night watchman or anybody in that +engineroom there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. I couldn't see if there was anybody in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in the 20 minutes or half hour before the shooting, +how many cars would you say were parked in this part of the garage +[indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would estimate there were 20. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in that half hour before the shooting, was there any +traffic in and out of that garage? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Just that one squad, that I recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time that you heard that Coke bottle drop, +where was your attention focused, from your position? + +Mr. NEWMAN. At the time? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. From the time? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, from the time? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What were you looking at in there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, my main concern was this room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was looking occasionally throughout the rest of the area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you faced from there, from where you +have got yourself, what direction you were facing? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was facing in this direction [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion at any time to look over in this +area here [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not until immediately prior to the shooting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What directed your attention over there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Someone yelled, "Here he comes." I believe, "Here they +come," something to that effect. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could hear that from over there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about when you saw an automobile move out of the +garage? Did you follow that automobile--did you watch and see where +that automobile went? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not from the time it got on the ramp. I couldn't see but +about two thirds of the ramp. I couldn't see the door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after that automobile left, did you +continue to watch over in that direction? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. There was nothing unusual about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time, or as the automobile was moving out, +can you describe this area, in what I will call the entrance to the +garage, describe how many people were in that area there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would estimate there were 40, 50, 60 people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there substantially more people in the area in +the garageway than in the area along the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; there were more people over in this area here, along +this wall [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you estimate were over---- + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, that's what I meant, I would say over 40 or 50, +total. Out of that, I wouldn't think there were more than 5 or 10, if +that many, in this area here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark down here the placement of the people in +that area at the time you heard somebody yell, "Here he comes." + +Mr. NEWMAN. You just want to know about this one area? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall specifically anyone being there at any +particular place [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, over in this area, can you show me how +they were placed over there [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. There was a group along this wall, there was a group over +here that I could see [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what's your estimate of the number of people that +were in this group? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, from what I could see, I would say maybe 20, just an +estimate. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put about 20 there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many people would you estimate were over in this +cluster that you have marked there [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. From what I could see, it appeared to be about the same +number. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About 20 there. And, how many deep were they? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I couldn't see that much detail. I could just tell +there was a crowd of people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you try to indicate how people were spaced over +in here [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, if there were, they were very sparse. I would just +say individually. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don't you just write in there "sparse." + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the TV cameras were placed? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate on that where the TV cameras were? + +Mr. NEWMAN. As I recall, there were three. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you came into the basement the first time, did +you see a TV camera over in this area here that I have pointed to +[indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not a large camera. There may have been a hand-held camera, +but no large camera. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am indicating on here, so the record will reflect, +I am pointing to the area roughly in front of the jail office door. +For anyone reading this, I will indicate also that this is an area in +which Assistant Chief Batchelor indicated that sometime, that he is not +sure of, in the early morning he saw a TV camera there, and he believes +he had it moved. Now, I take it you don't recall any equipment of any +sort being in this area in here, in the garage [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. TV equipment? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In the entrance to the garage? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this a railing, incidentally [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. This is a small rail right here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me write across here "rail." Now, from +where you were standing, were you able to see over that rail? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Partially. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How high is that rail? + +Mr. NEWMAN. It isn't over 3 feet. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a solid thing or is it a metal set---- + +Mr. NEWMAN. Just made of pipes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it any different from the railings that's along the +Commerce Street ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Same type railing, I believe. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Same type of railing. And the railing that's marked in +solid on the other side of the entrance to the garage next to the chief +parking area, which I will also label rail, that's the same kind of +railing as the ones over near the TV cameras? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, your vision from where you were standing was not +substantially obstructed by any permanent parts of the building, from +where the marked curb on the ramp is, all the way down, perhaps to +this, all the way down to this railing here [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. It was somewhat obstructed by these columns, but nothing to +keep me from getting an overall view of the area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what do you recall happening after the automobile +drove out of the drive and went up the Commerce Street ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anything until I heard that "Here he comes," +called out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard the "Here he comes"? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I looked up in that direction. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you see when you looked up in that direction? + +Mr. NEWMAN. All I saw was the newsmen congregating to that area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they seem to be pushing in from? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, they were making a round in this general area in here +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the area up in the ramp, Main Street +ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How deep were they in the Main Street ramp, by that time? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I would guess two or three, but that's just a guess. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does that include policemen, also? + +Mr. NEWMAN. You mean the number of people? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say the total number of people was two or three +deep there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it solid across from this wall to the railing? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I couldn't see that much detail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over in that direction, after you heard +"Here he comes," and you saw this milling around, what is the next +thing that you remember seeing? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, like I said, I saw these people congregating to this +area. I did see a man come down this ramp [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw a man come down the ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see him come down the ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. It was just immediately after that was called out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And whereabouts did you first see him when he was on the +ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would say in about the location of this arrow +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put a mark there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you see that man do? + +Mr. NEWMAN. He just ran down in here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to run down into the center or to one side or +what? + +Mr. NEWMAN. From the angle I was looking, I couldn't tell. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that man--how that man was dressed? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see that man emerge? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby move forward at Lee Oswald? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were standing here, could you see the areaway here +[indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I could because of the car that was parked +here. I don't recall seeing the area. I don't recall not seeing it. I +don't much think I could, though, because there was a car parked right +here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to mark this in pencil. Is that +about where this car was [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I would say it was just about that location [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And is the way we have got this drawn here at +this point, with the one pencil mark in there, the way the area from +here on up, all the way up to here and the whole building appeared at +the time Oswald was shot, from this spot [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's the way it appeared to me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us anything about that area there +[indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. I do remember one thing, now, that was--some half hour +before that, where another automobile was parked, if you are interested. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am. + +Mr. NEWMAN. It was parked, I would say, approximately here. I will mark +this "second auto"; is that all right [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Just mark it "car one half hour before shooting." + +Mr. NEWMAN. All right [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that car there at the time that Oswald was shot? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; it wasn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that car moved? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall it being moved. It might possibly have been +the car that left here. I do know there was a car over here. I wasn't +paying that much attention as to what they were doing. This might +possibly have been this car; I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure where the car that went up the ramp came +from, but you did see a car go up the ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this car that moved through the line of +newsman? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not that I recall. I didn't pay any attention to it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have indicated that this car you saw move +out, moved out 5 or 10 minutes before the shooting. Now, I know it's +awful difficult, we have been here talking, and I frankly haven't +any idea how long we have talked. Maybe it is easier to pinpoint the +movement of that car in terms of when you heard that pop bottle? + +Mr. NEWMAN. All I know, it was sometime between the bottle and the +shooting. I would say I can't pinpoint it even within 10 minutes, but I +do know it was a short time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I will mark this, "Exhibit, Dallas, Texas, W. J. +Newman," no; I take that back. I will mark it, but I think it best that +we go through this whole thing chronologically. W. J. Newman, 3-25-64, +Exhibit 5038. Now, what did you do after the shot was fired? + +Mr. NEWMAN. As soon as I heard the shot fired, I ran up into this place +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think we need to mark it. You stood at the base of +the garage ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this officer came up to about--well, opposite me---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. To make this, maybe, a little easier, let's take the +pencil and you mark where you went to with pencil, and draw a line to +it, and then mark where this other fellow went. Why don't you put an +arrow, so we know which direction we are moving? + +Mr. NEWMAN. (Indicating). + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you remember what the name of that officer +was? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do as you got up to that spot? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, he or I, neither one had anyway of knowing what +had happened, other than the fact a shot had been fired, and he +said, "Don't let anyone leave." There was a man came at me from this +direction, running towards me. I stopped him [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Was he a newspaper man or what? + +Mr. NEWMAN. He later told me he was a member of one of these camera +crews. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do with him when you stopped him? + +Mr. NEWMAN. We scuffled a couple of seconds there until he recognized I +was a police officer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. And as I recall, he said, "I am not trying to leave. I +will stay with you. I just want to get away from there," or something +to that effect. He didn't stand there but for a minute. Then he asked +me if he could go back to the crew. I told him he could, but not to try +to leave the building. I still didn't know what had happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why would he run off in that direction? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. There was a man crouched behind this column +here [indicating]. I assumed, I still do, he was probably just trying +to find some place to go. Those columns offered the most protection. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain there after you stopped that +man? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Until the ambulance arrived. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe this man that you stopped? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I can't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn what TV crew he was from? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the ambulance came, did you continue to remain +there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I moved up to the base of the Commerce ramp here. There was +another officer in plain clothes here--some newsmen tried to follow the +ambulance out and we stopped them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. That was a plain clothes officer, I think you +said. + +Mr. NEWMAN. I think we stopped him. He showed us his identification and +he went on up the ramp. Not more than, oh, 2 or 3 minutes after that, I +assume they decided to let these men go where they wanted to. I don't +know that for a fact, but at any rate I was sent out on the corner of +Main and Harwood to direct traffic. There were quite a few police units +coming in from different parts of town. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out on the corner of Main and +Harwood? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not over 10 minutes. A motorcycle officer relieved me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Then I returned to the assembly room and I was sent out to +Parkland. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive out at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know exactly. From what happened, I would say 12:15 +to 12:30, but that's just an approximation. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was there until about 4:30 in the afternoon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody out there at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I talked to quite a few officers there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you stationed at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was right on the entrance where you turn into the +hospital off of Harry Hines. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what police officers you talked to? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any except Captain Solomon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were out there, did you tell anybody +about having seen this man come down the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; at the time I didn't place any significance on it, +because I still didn't know what happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were standing out there, did you hear any +discussion about the name of the man who had shot Oswald? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not there. The officer who relieved me on the traffic +detail there on the corner asked me if I knew it was Jack Ruby that had +done it. That was all he said. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer that relieved you? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know his name. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at 4 o'clock? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; it was at--oh, 12:15 or 12:30, on the corner of Harwood +and Main. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you got to Parkland Hospital, you knew +Ruby had shot Oswald? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I knew a man named Jack Ruby had shot him. The name didn't +mean anything to me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you relieve Officer Vaughn at the Main Street entrance? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Right here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you went to Main and Harwood? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right; I did. On the way back I did spend, oh, maybe +5 minutes here at this entrance [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You did? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Directing traffic. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Officer Vaughn there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall the officer's name. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out to Parkland Hospital, did you tell +anybody out there the name of the person who shot Oswald? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember some of the officers who were out there at +Parkland Hospital? By this, I mean reserve officers as well as regular +officers? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anyone by name except Captain Solomon. I +haven't been in the reserve long enough to know too many of these +men. I know there were 5 reserves--or 4 others and myself, who were +transported out there in the squad car. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know any of the reserve officers by name, +outside of Solomon? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, yes; I know them, but I don't know any of those people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Had you ever worked before with any of the reserve +officers who were out there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I had gone through school with one of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that? + +Mr. NEWMAN. There again, I can't tell you his name. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe him? + +Mr. NEWMAN. He was--I would know his name if I saw it. Oh, rather tall, +I would say about 6'2", wavy black hair, medium built. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he wear glasses? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he does, where he is employed? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old is he? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I guess late twenties. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where he lives? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see this particular officer out at Parkland +Hospital? + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him? + +Mr. NEWMAN. He relieved me sometime in the middle of the afternoon so I +could go get a cup of coffee. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him about what had happened down there in +the basement? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. The only thing I said, I just relayed to him the +instructions I had. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember telling anybody out there about seeing a +man coming down the ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that you did not tell anybody? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I know I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You know you didn't tell anybody that. When did you first +become aware that this might be significant, that you saw this man come +down the ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. When I was interviewed by Lieutenant Revill. It must have +been the following Sunday. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After you got off duty at Parkland Hospital, where did you +go? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I went back to the Police and Courts Building and was +assigned on the second floor, security detail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Captain Talbert was? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know the gentleman. It was right outside of the +city planning office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. Was this on the second floor of the municipal building? + +Mr. NEWMAN. The Police and Courts Building. The city planning or---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the jail part of the building? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. On the second floor, just to the right of the +elevator, there is some city offices there other than the police +department. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were on the elevator, stationed on the elevators +there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I was at the stairway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you to be doing there at the stairway? + +Mr. NEWMAN. My instructions were that no one was to be in there except +press, police, and anyone who had a business. There were several +civilians who came into the building. I recall one witness who, in +accident, he was escorted into where he was going and escorted out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Until about 8:30 p.m. About 2 hours. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I was relieved and went home. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, while you were there, did you talk to +Sergeant Dean? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, no; but I didn't see Sergeant Dean the rest of the +day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before you left duty, did anybody from the +police department talk to you about writing a report or anything like +that? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were standing around there before you left +duty, did you hear any rumors about how Jack Ruby got in the building? +What was the first rumor that you heard about how Ruby got in the +building? + +Mr. NEWMAN. The first I heard was not over 2 weeks ago in an account in +a newspaper. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. It was not over 2 weeks ago in an +account---- + +Mr. NEWMAN. An article. The first--anything I had heard, rumor or +otherwise, as to how he got into the building. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean 2 weeks ago from today? + +Mr. NEWMAN. During the trial, approximately 2 weeks. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't hear any rumors over television; didn't read +any rumors in the newspaper? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, let me retract that. I do recall a statement that +Ruby himself made. I don't remember when it was. It was sometime in the +4 months between the incident and the trial. I think he had boasted how +easy it was, or he couldn't have planned it that well, or something. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take a daily newspaper? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take any news magazines? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Time? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Life? + +Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness shakes head.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday Evening Post? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Read any magazines? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I read some magazines but no news magazines. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, do you subscribe to any? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. American Rifleman and Readers Digest. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are the only two magazines you subscribe to? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take both daily newspapers in town? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you try to keep abreast of the articles on the Ruby +killing of Oswald, after this event? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I think I read just about every word that was printed. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn't see a single rumor in any newspaper about +how he got in? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I won't say I didn't see it. I will say I don't recall it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall an article, for example, that was written +about Sergeant Dean, where Sergeant Dean said, was quoted as saying he +saw a man come down the Main Street ramp; do you recall that article? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't. The reason I remember so well is because this +article I saw 2 weeks ago satisfied my curiosity. I had been curious +all that time. I knew from what Lieutenant Leavelle told me, or from +the remarks he made, that with the men with him there--he wasn't +making the remarks to me, but I think, when I told him about this, he +turned to the other men and said, "Well, that's it." That's the only +information I heard. The police officers I worked with and so forth had +been very shut mouth. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first requested to make a statement or +prepare a letter or something of that sort for the use of the police +department? + +Mr. NEWMAN. It was the following Sunday, the week from the day of--the +day Oswald was shot. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that? + +Mr. NEWMAN. First request? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Newman +Exhibit No. 5038. Would you read that over [indicating]? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I am going to have to back up. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this purports to be a copy of a letter which you +signed and was addressed to Chief Curry and dated November 26, 1963. +Did you prepare that letter? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Let me think. The Tuesday night afterwards, Lieutenant +Merrell gave me a mimeographed questionnaire for me to complete and +return to him and I think I did it right there on the spot. It was a +very vague type thing. When I say statement, I am talking about the +statement that I did sign the following Sunday, where they had this +information that I had given them typed in the form of a statement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in this statement you indicated that you saw +Lieutenant Stuets and Lieutenant Crowey--Sergeant Crowey, of the +reserves in the same area you were in? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I saw them that morning. They were not in the same area +that I was in. I had seen them in the basement that morning. I don't +have any idea where they were at the time. I happen to know now where +Sergeant Crowey was, but I found that out later. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see Sergeant Crowey in the basement that +morning? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't remember. It was sometime before the---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by this statement in here that, "Names of +other officers in the same area that I can't recollect." What do you +mean by the same area? + +Mr. NEWMAN. By the same area there I meant the basement proper. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement do you remember seeing him? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant Crowey? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any specific area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement area did you recall seeing Stuets? +Now, is Lieutenant Stuets or Sergeant Crowey, either one of them, this +regular officer that you have got marked here with an "X"? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I know that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as that is concerned, then, you saw many +officers in here who you would remember, whose names you would remember? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. The way I took that question and the way I answered +it, those are the only two officers I saw that morning in the basement +whose names I did remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they help you search the basement? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't believe so. They have been searching in another +area, but they weren't right with me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Arnett that day? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Let me try to--I know he was there, but I don't think I +saw him. I may have seen him after the shooting. There was so much +confusion then that I wasn't paying too much attention to who I was +seeing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of an officer on the police force named +Blackie Harrison? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Chief Batchelor when you see him? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I would. I have only seen the gentleman one +time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Butler when you see him? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Jones when you see him? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't know him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Officer Lowery when you see him? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of the officers in the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I would know one if I saw him. I don't know him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Miller in the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize the name of this guy in the juvenile +bureau, if I gave you his name? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; as far as I know, I have never heard it. I have only +been in there, I think, twice. + +(Pause.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are a d--- l---. I want you to come back tomorrow +night and I want you----I want to question you some more. + +Mr. NEWMAN. I certainly don't appreciate that accusation. I have given +you all I can, to the best of my memory, for 4 months. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to regard yourself as still under the +obligation to appear, that you are already under, by virtue of having +waived any notice here, and I would like to recess to continue this +deposition until 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon in this office. If you +would care to consult with an attorney at that time, or anything like +that, and would like to come in here with one, I would be most happy +for you to do so. + +Mr. NEWMAN. May I ask: What are you getting at? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, frankly, after having sat here for an hour and +having listened to this testimony, my own personal opinion, either you +are absolutely not telling the truth or plenty of other people who have +been in here aren't telling the truth. Somehow I am going to see how +the devil we can reconcile these differences. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. NEWMAN RESUMED + +The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 4:08 p.m., on March 26, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that at 4:08, March 26, 1964, the +deposition of Mr. W. J. Newman, which was commenced last night with +Mr. Burt W. Griffin conducting the investigation, but which was not +completed last night, is now being resumed by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +staff member, conducting the deposition. + +Mr. Newman, are you willing to continue the deposition at this time? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you understand that you are under the same oath that +you were yesterday when the deposition began, and all through the +deposition? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that you regard yourself as being under the same oath? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show, also, that I have been designated by +Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to take the sworn +deposition of Mr. William J. Newman. + +Mr. Newman, I simply want to mark for identification so that we will +all know what we are talking about certain papers and letters and +reports so that we can refer to them by the designation marked on them. + +Now, I notice that last night, apparently, the last exhibit number +that was used by Mr. Griffin was No. 5038, in connection with a letter +dated November 26, or rather it is a copy of a letter dated November +26 addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, the original of which, +apparently, signed W. J. Newman. + +Since I do not know what sequence of the letters Mr. Griffin has used +since he started your deposition, I am going to number the documents +that we will be talking about now by using the same basic number 5038, +adding the letters "A", "B", "C", etc., as far as we need to go. Now, +in that connection, I am marking an undated statement--an undated +document, I beg your pardon, undated document entitled "Statement of +Police Reserve Officer William J. Newman." It is also unsigned. And +it is to be found in the Commission Document 81-A point 79. For the +purpose of identification, I am marking it "Dallas, Tex., March 26, +1964. Exhibits 5038-A. Deposition of W. J. Newman." Sign my name below +it. Then for the purposes of identification, also, I am marking a +verifax or photostatic copy of "Officer's Memorandum dated December +6, 1963, to Lieutenant Revill, from Detective R. W. Westphal," which +document is to be found in Commission Document 81-A point 79. And, +I am marking that "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. That's Exhibit +5038-B. Deposition of W. J. Newman," and signing my name below on +that document. Then the next document is a letter, or verifax or +photostatic copy of a letter, dated December 31, 1963, to J. E. +Curry, signed by Jack Revill, and C. C. Wallace, purporting to be a +report on an interview by Reserve Officer W. J.--William J. Newman, +No. 317, and for the purposes of identification I am marking that +document "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5038-C." Continuing +your identification, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5038-C. +Deposition of W. J. Newman." I am signing my name on that document, +which is also to be found in Commission Report--Commission Document No. +81-A point 79. Finally, I am marking what purports to be a copy of the +report by FBI Agents James C. Kennedy and Leo L. Robertson, concerning +an interview with William J. Newman on December 24, 1963, and for +identification I am marking that document, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, +1964. Exhibit 5038-D. The deposition of W. J. Newman." And signing my +name on that document. + +Now, Mr. Newman, you have had an opportunity, I think, to read these +various documents there, 5038, then 5038-A, B, C and D. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. The only purpose of asking you to read them and to compare +them is to ask you if you can assist us at getting at the facts, and +that is all we want to know. + +There seems to be some contradiction between them. Maybe there is not. +If there isn't and you can show us that there isn't, that is all we +want to know. If there is a contradiction, we would like to have your +explanation, if we can, as to what is the truth, because that is all we +want to know anyhow. If there is a contradiction, it is obvious that +one of the statements must be wrong, and all we want to do is tell us +which is wrong and which is right. That is the sole purpose of this +inquiry. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Be happy to; if I can. + +Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps I can get at it this way: These reports seem +to indicate that you saw a man coming down the ramp. These records +also seem to indicate that you saw a man climbing over a rail in the +basement. Now, I think we can clarify this situation immediately by +asking you, do those reports relate to two different instances? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a man climbing over the rail, and +there was a man coming down the Main Street ramp, and as far as you +know they are two different episodes? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Two different things. + +Mr. HUBERT. Two different things. All right. We got a lot clarified +there. Now, I think the other point is when did each of these happen, +and let's take, first of all, the man coming down the ramp. + +Mr. NEWMAN. This, as I stated there, was, as near as I can estimate, +approximately 1 minute or less prior to the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you said in your statement that because of the +various conditions existing you could not identify the man by name or +sight or anything of that sort? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when he was coming down the ramp? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. I have also--I have never made any estimate. + +Mr. HUBERT. No; that's correct. I didn't mean to intimate that you had. +It is a fact that a man coming down--that you did see a man coming +down, but you really don't know who he is, and that never have known? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, seen pictures and so forth of Jack +Ruby since? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the man coming down the ramp was Jack +Ruby? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No; I wouldn't. By the same token, I wouldn't say that he +wasn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you can't say whether he was or wasn't? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I just didn't pay that much attention to it +at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that was definitely about a minute before the shooting? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, I think we have that one clarified, so far as that is +concerned. + +Now, about the man jumping over the rail, what is your best thought +about the timing on that? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I have none. When I talked to Lieutenant Revill, I think +this was Sunday the 1st of December, I guess it would be, and he asked +me two or three times whether I had seen a man go over the rail. I +couldn't recall anyone. Later, I think it was, oh, two days later, I +am not sure, I did remember seeing someone go over that rail, but as I +stated in that statement, I cannot, for the life of me, set the time in +any figures. Just something that registered, and that was the end of it. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that when you say "it", you couldn't tell whether it +was before the shooting or after, you can't tell whether it was a +minute before or a minute after, 5 minutes before or 5 minutes after, +or for that matter more time before or more time after? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I know not longer than 5 or 10 minutes after, because +I wasn't there. I couldn't establish it at any time. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that your best recollection right now, today, is simply +that you have a recollection of a man going over the rail from the +parking area into the ramp. + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the ramp was it; do you remember? + +Mr. NEWMAN. About midway. + +Mr. HUBERT. About midway? But, you don't know? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Just---- + +Mr. HUBERT. The relation of it as to time of the shooting, except that +it couldn't have been when you weren't there, obviously. + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. You remember how the man was dressed? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you this, too: Do you know whether it was, or was +not, or do you have any opinion on whether it was or was not Jack Ruby, +or do you have any opinion as to who it was at all? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I have no opinion whatsoever. I would like to say in +that, since we are talking about this incident, that when I talked to +Detective Westphal--was it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Lieutenant Revill was out of town. He didn't indicate to me +that he placed any importance on it whatsoever. I was not aware of the +fact that he had even written a memo on it. Mr. Griffin, last night, +did not bring it up, and I, after talking to him, dropped the subject. +Didn't see fit to bring it up, or didn't even remember it. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is this undated statement which we have identified as +5038-A, the one that is also unsigned? Do you know anything about that +at all? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. I would guess probably that information was +taken down at the time I talked to him on the telephone. That is, by +and large, the statement I made to him. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had called him on the telephone as indicated, in fact, +by Exhibit 5038-B, when Westphal reports on it, says, "Subject." That +means you, "called this date." Did he ask you when--in other words, he +left a call for you, is that correct? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Now, I called him. + +Mr. HUBERT. You called him to tell him what? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Just to give him that information that I had remembered +since I talked to him the previous time, because at the time he seemed +to think it was fairly important. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you go out to Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man, reserve officer by the name of +Holly? + +Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall. I spoke to several reserve officers. I +can't recall any of them as to who they were. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling anyone of them about having seen +either of these two men that we just talked about, that is to say, the +man coming down the rail, or coming down the ramp, or the man coming +over the rail? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No, at the time I didn't even recall placing any +significance on the fact, because at the time I didn't even know what +had happened. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall talking to anybody about either of these +two episodes, the man going down the ramp and the man jumping over the +rail while you were at Parkland that day? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No, I didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your statement, but I think I had better +get it exactly straight, that you did not do anything with respect to +either of the two men? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No, I had no contact with them. + +Mr. HUBERT. I didn't mean that contact, so much as I meant taking some +police action. + +Mr. NEWMAN. No, that is what I meant too. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Do you know an officer by the name of Brock? +Reserve officer, I believe. + +Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't. I don't recognize the name. + +Mr. HUBERT. And one by the name of Worley? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't recognize that name either. I might know him on +sight if I see him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any other comments to make? I think the +thing is clarified. + +Mr. NEWMAN. No, we had our misunderstanding last night. I didn't know +what needed to be clarified. I know I was thoroughly shaky and possibly +not too accurate as to the details of what happened in that basement +prior to the shooting in the hour or hour and a half, but that wasn't +my concern, and I didn't pay too much attention. I just gave it as best +I remembered. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn't at the deposition last night, so I don't +know what went on, and I, therefore, will not ask you any further +questions. + +Have you had any interview with me prior to taking of this deposition +today? + +Mr. NEWMAN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. I think that is all. Thank you for coming very +much. + +Mr. NEWMAN. I do have one other thing here that Mr. Griffin seemed to +be concerned about last night, in that I couldn't identify a man, a +reserve officer I had met in the basement of the garage, or immediately +after I got there by name. That that you are holding is a class picture +that was made. I can now identify--I have a list of names in my pocket +if you want them. + +Mr. HUBERT. The only way for it to be of the use would be if you would +let me mark the picture and put it in the record. + +Mr. NEWMAN. You may have it if you like. I don't know whether it is of +any importance or not. + +Mr. HUBERT. I don't either, but--do you want it to go in? + +Mr. NEWMAN. Not necessarily. I am leaving it up to you. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I say, I don't know what the question was last night +about identification, and you have brought this matter up; I am +perfectly willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think it +would be better, if you comment about it, to put it in the record, but +on the other hand maybe it wouldn't be necessary. Why don't you say +what you have to say about it and then we can judge better? + +Mr. NEWMAN. As near as I can recall, when he was questioning me about +what officers I had seen in the basement that morning whom I knew, and +the subject came up that I had seen one man but I could not remember +his name. He asked me at that time for a description of him and I gave +it to him. After looking at that picture last night when I got home, +and with the list of names I had for the picture, I can now give the +man's name, if you would like it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; go ahead. + +Mr. NEWMAN. Third from the left--second from the left on the back row. +Casten, Jerome Casten. + +Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. Now, that was the reserve officer that Mr. +Griffin was questioning you about last night, and, as I understand it, +you testified that you did remember seeing a man, and you gave his +description, but at that time you did not know his name? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. With the aid of this picture, which as I understand, is a +class picture--I see Captain Solomon there, by the way--you identified +him as the second man in the top row from the left, and you stated his +name to be---- + +Mr. NEWMAN. Jerome Casten. + +Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. I think it would be better if you would +allow this to go in. I am, therefore, marking the picture on the +reverse side thereof by placing the following on it, to wit: "Dallas, +Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5038-E, deposition of W. J. Newman." +Then I am signing my name below that, I am placing an "X" over the man +you have identified, and placing my initials next to the "X"; is that +correct, sir? + +Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I don't remember seeing that man throughout +the rest of the day, and to the best of my knowledge he was assigned +somewhere other than the basement quite sometime prior to the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we were both +talking about the same document all the time, I wonder if you would +mind placing your name below mine on each one of these? + +Mr. NEWMAN. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BOBBY G. PATTERSON + +The testimony of Bobby G. Patterson was taken at 4:07 p.m., on April +14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bobby G. Patterson. + +Mr. Patterson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory +staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. + +Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, +joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by +the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint +resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, +Mr. Patterson. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular as to you, Mr. Patterson, the nature of the inquiry today +is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any +other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, including +what you know about what Jack Ruby might have had to do with it. + +Mr. Patterson, I think you have appeared here by virtue of an +individual request made to you to appear here--was that by a letter? + +Mr. PATTERSON. By a letter. + +Mr. HUBERT. When was that letter addressed to you by J. Lee Rankin, +General Counsel of the Commission--when did you receive it? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Monday. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Sunday. + +Mr. HUBERT. Sunday. + +Mr. PATTERSON. I came back Sunday. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any objection to testifying now? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. The reason I say that is that under the rules of the +Commission a person is supposed to have a 3-day notice before they can +be required to testify, but the rules also provide that you can waive +it if you want to. If you are willing to testify and waive the 3 days +notice, we can go ahead. + +Mr. PATTERSON. I am as willing as he is. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; would you stand up and raise your right hand and +I will administer the oath. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Bobby G. Patterson. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Thirty-three. + +Mr. HUBERT. And what is your residence? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Mesquite, Tex., 3463 Caracas [spelling] C-a-r-a-c-a-s. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your occupation is what? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Patrolman, Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Oh, about 5-1/2 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do before that? + +Mr. PATTERSON. I worked for American Beauty Flour Co. down here on +South Ervay. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Patterson, I have shown you a document which for +the purpose of identification I have marked in the right margin the +words, "Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964. Exhibit 5311, Patrolman Bobby +G. Patterson," and I have put my name on it, and since it contains a +second page, I have put my initials at the bottom of the second page, +and I ask you if you have read that document? + +Mr. PATTERSON. I have. + +Mr. HUBERT. That purports to be a report of an interview of you made by +Special Agents Horton and Propst [spelling] P-r-o-p-s-t, on November +30, 1963, does it not; is that correct? + +Mr. PATTERSON. I believe it is--I wouldn't say for sure--it was on +Saturday, I believe--I don't know when it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. In any case, I ask you if you think that this report +identified as Exhibit 5311 is a fair report of the interview that you +had with the FBI agents? + +Mr. PATTERSON. It is a fair report. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you would like to add or delete or +modify with respect to Exhibit 5311? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No, that's just about it. As far as the time, now, I +don't know about some of the time in my report and every report and +stuff like that--I don't know if that makes any difference or not. That +is as near as I could get it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this--you say you are not sure about +the times that are stated in this report, Exhibit 5311. I take it that +you weren't sure really at the time that they interviewed you; is that +correct? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes--you know, the correct time? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, I note that where this exhibit does +mention time, it says "about." + +Mr. PATTERSON. Well, that's what I put it, "about." + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not know Ruby at all? + +Mr. PATTERSON. I did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were at the top of the Commerce Street ramp? + +Mr. PATTERSON. The ramp; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. From about 9:30 on--you never left it? + +Mr. PATTERSON. I never left it. + +Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, no one unidentified was there? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No one without proper identification. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you understood was meant by "proper +identification"? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he said not to let no one in except police and +reporters unless they had proper identification. + +Mr. HUBERT. You said they told you--who was that? + +Mr. PATTERSON. The sergeant. + +Mr. HUBERT. Sergeant Dean? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, with respect to police, I guess their +uniform would establish their identity? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No, they have a regular identification. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were instructed to have them show their official +identification? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did so? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What about the identification of newsmen? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the best I could tell, they pulled out all the +identification--part of them had pictures of who they worked for, where +they lived, some of them didn't have nothing, some of them had stickers +and I had to turn one of them back--I did--he come up there in a WRR +truck and got out of it but didn't have no identification and he had to +go back and get some. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as far as you were concerned, you were not +satisfied if a man just simply had a badge on saying "press"? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. You went further and required something that would satisfy +you? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes--anybody can pick up a press badge. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you actually turned back some people who claimed to be +the press, but you weren't satisfied with their identification? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you require a picture? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Some of them had pictures and some of them didn't--some +of them had where they lived--on down further who they worked for and +what press--and they had cameras on. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, if they had that sort of thing, you figured that that +was proper? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it's proper identification--you know half of them +didn't know they were supposed to have the pictures. Of course, I don't +guess the chief or anybody notified them to have pictures like they did +down at the county. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you considered that the identification you required as +to newsmen, when they didn't have a picture, would be such as would +satisfy you in normal police work in identifying anybody? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Driver's license and things of that sort? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Well, sometimes I would have them show me their driver's +license and that on top of their identification too, to make sure that +was the same person. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you stayed in that position I guess from about 9:30 +until actually---- + +Mr. PATTERSON. Almost 12 o'clock, I believe. + +Mr. HUBERT. After the killing--after the ambulance went through? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you been given any instructions as to how the transfer +was to take place? + +Mr. PATTERSON. All they told me was that he would be transferred by +armored car and for me to stay on the right side of it--of the armored +car--as it was being backed in, and I stayed there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have previously handed you another document which +I have marked for identification by writing on the margin as follows: +"Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5312, Deposition of Patrolman +Bobby G. Patterson," and I have signed my name below. + +Now, I show you that document? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it and have read it? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You consider that it is correct and states the truth? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any modifications or adjustments? + +Mr. PATTERSON. It is about as true as I could get it. + +Mr. HUBERT. No deletions or anything to add? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Who? + +Mr. HUBERT. Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne Crafard? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a telephone, sir? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your telephone number, please? + +Mr. PATTERSON. BRoadway 9-0394. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you had that number? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Oh, about--almost a year. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar at all with the telephone number WH-2-5326? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No, sir; I never heard tell of it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Robert Carl Patterson, +also known as Bobby Patterson? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your middle initial is "G" and that stands for what? + +Mr. PATTERSON. Gene [spelling] G-e-n-e. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that you are not a person by the name of Robert Carl +Patterson? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever lived at 902 East Waco Street, Dallas? + +Mr. PATTERSON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Patterson, I am going to show you a page in an exhibit +which has been re-marked, "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5308, +Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," on which I have signed my name, and +that same group of pages has also been marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205, +in connection with the testimony of another witness? + +On one of the pages thereof, I show you the number "WH-2-5326, Bobby +[spelling] B-o-b-b-y Patterson." Is that your handwriting? + +Mr. PATTERSON. It isn't mine--no. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that at all? + +Mr. PATTERSON. I sure don't--I haven't heard tell of that number. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed previous to this time by any +member of the Commission's staff? + +Mr. PATTERSON. I never have. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you; that's all. + +Mr. PATTERSON. Okay. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF RIO S. PIERCE + +The testimony of Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:20 p.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Rio S. Pierce, with the +Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Pierce, my name is Leon D. Hubert, +Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the +President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order +No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress +No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in +conformance with the Executive order and that joint resolution, I have +been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Lieutenant +Pierce. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's +inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent +death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Lieutenant Pierce, +the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know +about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know +about the general inquiry. Lieutenant Pierce, you have appeared today +by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, +the General Counsel of the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the +Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to the +taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that you may waive +that 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so, and I ask you---- + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I waive that. + +Mr. HUBERT. May I ask you to stand and raise your right hand so that +you can be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Rio S. Pierce. + +Mr. HUBERT. Age? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Forty. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your residence, please? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. 3227 South Edgefield. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Police officer, city of Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so occupied? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. About 17 1/2 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of lieutenant? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Four years. + +Mr. HUBERT. What were your specific duties and responsibilities on +November 24, 1963? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Do you have reference to normal duties, or on this +specific day? + +Mr. HUBERT. On this specific day. + +Lieutenant PIERCE. On this specific day I had instructions to secure +the basement of the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. From whom did you receive those instructions? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. From Captain Talbert. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is he one of your superior officers? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes; captain of the radio patrol, lieutenant +commander and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did he give you those orders, sir? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I would say about 9 to 9:15. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he direct you as to what you were to do in order to +secure the basement area? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; other than securing enough men from the +other stations to secure the basement properly and make arrangements +for whatever manpower was needed for the transfer. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Would you state for the record what you actually +did in connection with carrying out those orders? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, while we were responsible for the routine work +of the department, we had to determine what manpower would be pulled on +the various substations that we had, and those men were called in to +the central station to be used as they were needed. Sergeant Dean was +assigned the security of the basement, and he was assisted by Sergeant +Putnam, and as I recall, there was a total of about 19 men that were +called off their districts to help in this work. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you, yourself, do any of the inspection work, or the +searching out work? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; Sergeant Dean made the assignment of the +men, and approximately an hour later, I guess maybe 10:15, I did make +an inspection of the basement, and apparently everything had been +checked out, and it was considered secure. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did your inspection consist of at the time? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Looking over the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk around? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I walked around the basement and checked +various entrances to the city hall basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Brock? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I can't recall right now. I know the name, I am sure +that I know him by sight, but I don't connect the name with the person. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice that there had been placed a uniformed +officer, reserve or otherwise, near the service elevator in the +basement? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Are you talking about in the new building? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; the elevator that goes up into the municipal +building. + +Lieutenant PIERCE. As well as I remember, there was an officer. I +believe his name was Brock. A police officer by the name of Brock. I'm +not certain, but those elevators had been cut off for---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, the two regular elevators had, but what about the +service elevator that had two doors, one leading into the basement and +another one leading on the other side of the basement? Are you familiar +with the elevator at all? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; it has a back door to it leading out into +the alley, and that is the elevator I believe, that was brought down +and cut off and an officer stationed there to see that it didn't run. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of any planned route from the basement area +to the county jail? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. My instructions were that I would escort the armored +car, which would be a decoy, from Commerce Street ramp to Central +northbound. To Elm Street onto Houston Street, which would be the +entrance to the county jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who did you receive those orders from? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. From Chief Curry and Chief Stevenson. + +Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you get those orders? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I would assume it was about 11:15. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I immediately left. I received these instructions +in the homicide office, which is on the third floor of the city hall. +Immediately left there and rode the elevator down to the basement where +I secured a car and I found that the normal exit, which is the exit on +Commerce Street from the basement of the city hall, was blocked by an +armored car. It was necessary for me to use the Main Street exit. I +mean--actually, the Main Street entrance, because we don't exit---- + +Mr. HUBERT. But you used it as an exit? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I used it as an exit. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Sergeant Putnam was in the front seat with me and +Sergeant Maxey was in the back seat. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what happened along the route then? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, we pulled out of the basement, and I would +judge from the time, from the length of time, probably a length it +would take it to circle city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the top of the basement, were there any +guards there on the Main Street entrance? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Patrolman Vaughn was stationed at the top of the +ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. You knew him prior to that time? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What happened then? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, actually, nothing happened outside of the fact +that he had to move out of the way to let us out. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which way did he move? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. He moved toward the street. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean on which side of you? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. He moved to my right. + +Mr. HUBERT. And towards the street? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. And towards the street; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What way was he facing then during the period that you were +moving by him? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. He was facing me, as well as I remember. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is---- + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Momentarily, anyway. + +Mr. HUBERT. In fact, he would have been looking from where he was +standing toward the Main Street entrance? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him turn his head any at all? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; I couldn't see him for just a matter of a +second there when I pulled out. That ramp is steep and a little bit +difficult to get out there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he step out in the street at all? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you turn, immediately outside the Main Street +entry or exit, to your right? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I was aware that people were pressed, not a large +number of them, but I would say maybe four or five. + +Mr. HUBERT. On your right? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. No, well, probably might have been a--I don't know. +Just a guess. I don't recall the number of people now, what it would be. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether there were some people on your right? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I was aware that people were on both sides of the +car when I pulled across the sidewalk. + +Mr. HUBERT. And how far from the entrance? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, probably 6 or 7 feet. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize anybody at all? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Nobody except one by the name of Vaughn. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, subsequently, of course, it turned out that Ruby shot +Oswald. Did you know him prior to that time? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Ruby? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I have known him 12 or 13 years, I guess. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you would recognize him without any difficulty whether +he had a hat on or not? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't think I would have any trouble recognizing +him if I saw him. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not, see him in that crowd to your right? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I didn't see him that day at all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that if he had been there he would have +recognized you? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I'm saying the possibilities are very great that +had he been there I might not have seen him. I mean, due to the time +element and more or less concerned with getting across the sidewalk and +into the street, driving the automobile at the same time. I am saying +the possibilities are very good that I might not have seen him had he +been there. I'd be very hesitant to say that I wouldn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark for identification three documents. +First, I am marking, "Dallas, Texas, March 24th, 1964, Exhibit 5077. +Deposition of Rio Pierce" and putting my name underneath that, and my +initial on the second page and in the right-hand lower corner, that +being a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief +Curry. The second document also consisting of two pages, a report of +an interview with you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on December 6, +in 1963. I am marking that, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit +5078, deposition of Rio Pierce." Signing my name on the front page +of that, and I place my initials on the lower right-hand corner of +the second page. And I am marking a third document on the right-hand +margin, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5079, deposition of Rio +Pierce." Signing my name on that front page and placing my initials +in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages. That +last document, to wit: 5079, purports to be a report of an interview +by FBI Agents Chapoton and Smith of you, Rio Pierce, on December 2, +1963. Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to look at these +documents? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are those documents correct and true? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. To the best of my knowledge, they are. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are there any omissions of a material nature? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't recall any. + +Mr. HUBERT. Anything you would like to delete as not being the truth, +or add because it has been omitted? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I don't see anything in there that I would care +to change. + +Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, this represents the truth as you know +it? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Maxey was in your car, was he not? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the rear? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you about having seen Daniels at the +exit? N. J. Daniels? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. You mean since then? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, since the day you drove out of there. In other words, +have you and Maxey ever, at all, conversed about whether he, Maxey, saw +Daniels? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. It is possible. I don't recall. People talk about a +lot of things since then. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been no interview between you and any member +of the Commission's staff before this deposition today, has there? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Anything else you want to say or add or change? + +Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't know of a thing. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. PUTNAM + +The testimony of Sgt. James A. Putnam was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March +24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. This is the deposition of Sgt. James A. Putnam, +Dallas Police Department. Sergeant Putnam, my name is Leon Hubert, +Jr., I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the +President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order +11130, dated November 29, 1963, by President of the United States, +the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure +adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive +order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a +sworn deposition from you, Mr. Putnam. I state to you now that the +general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, +and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President +Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In +particular to you, Sergeant Putnam, the nature of this inquiry tonight +is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any +other pertinent facts you know, now, about the general inquiry. + +Sergeant Putnam, you have appeared by virtue of a general request +made to Chief Curry by the general counsel of the staff of the +President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted by +the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the +taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness +may waive the 3-day written notice. Now, I'll ask you if you are +willing to waive that 3-day written notice? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. What is the purpose? + +Mr. HUBERT. Simply this, that any witness--the Commission says that any +witness should have a privilege of having 3 days' written notice before +he may be called upon to testify, and that in writing. Now, you have +not had that, because of the way the request came. You see, the request +came by letter to Mr. Curry from Mr. Rankin, who is the general counsel +of the President's Commission, and---- + +Sergeant PUTNAM. May I ask why it was done by this method rather than +the normal official notice? + +Mr. HUBERT. Simply because of the number of people that were involved. +If you wish to have the normal 3-day notice---- + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, will any further--will there be necessary for +me to appear at any further date? Also, are we going to conclude it +tonight? I will waive it for tonight and request if there is a further +need for me to arrive at this time, that I receive it if--it has got my +only day off in 2 weeks. I will waive it at this time and request it if +you do need me again, but I do get the 3-day official notice. + +Mr. HUBERT. We certainly will do so. First, let me say this in regard +to the time and so forth and being your day off. The actual sequence +of witnesses and the times they appear was not arranged by us. I don't +want to place the blame on anyone but I am awfully sorry. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's all right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that if we want to call you in again, you will +surely get the notice, but I don't believe you will be. However, I +can't be absolutely certain. I will get in touch with you by phone and +be sure that we don't disturb any of your rest days, because I know how +important that is. Would you stand up and raise your right hand and +take the oath. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth +and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Please state your full name, please. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. James A. Putnam. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your age? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Thirty-seven. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your residence? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. 2015 Joan Drive. + +Mr. HUBERT. Dallas? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation and how long have you held +it? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Police officer. Ten years and four months. + +Mr. HUBERT. And the rank you have now? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been sergeant? You have held that for how +long? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Eight months. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same rank and responsibilities during the +period of November 22 and 24? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who do you serve under, sir? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Lieutenant Pierce. + +Mr. HUBERT. And Lieutenant Pierce is with the patrol division? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. He is under Captain Talbert? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, Captain Talbert is your superior officer, too---- + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Also. + +Mr. HUBERT. In the line of command. Now, I have in my hand, two +documents which I am going to mark--three documents which I am going to +mark. Marking the first one as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March +24, 1964, Exhibit 5071. Deposition of J. A. Putnam," and I am signing +my name on that. The document is supposed to be a copy of a letter +dated November 26, addressed by James A. Putnam to Chief of Police J. +E. Curry, and it has two pages. I am placing my initials on the second +page. I am marking another document as follows, "Dallas, Texas, March +24th, 1964, Exhibit 5072. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my +name on that page, the exhibit being a single page exhibit. Then I am +marking a four-page exhibit being a report of an interview of you made +on December the 3, by Special Agents Carris and Peden of the FBI. I am +marking the first page in the bottom right hand, "Dallas, Texas, March +24, 1964, Exhibit 5073. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my +name on the first page below that, and putting my initials in the lower +right-hand corner of the three subsequent pages on that exhibit. Have +you had a chance to read these three documents that I have marked? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I thought there were two. I would like to see the +second one you marked. It may be another interview by the FBI. Now, is +that correct? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I wasn't aware that this was separate. I know I read +the first one. Yes; I had missed that page. That was---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What I want to ask you about all three of them, as a group, +if we can handle them that way, and if we can't---- + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I believe we can. + +Mr. HUBERT. If they represent the truth, if there are any errors in +any of those exhibits, if there are any omissions, do you wish to add +anything, delete anything or modify anything? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir; I accept them as they are. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you do this, then. Would you put your name +below my name where it appears and your initials below my initials that +appear. Now, sergeant, I have only a very few questions, I think, to +ask you about this, because as I read your statements they are rather +complete, taking the three together. They just give about everything +you know about the whole thing. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I understand from this, you were in the basement area, +from about 9:30 until shortly before 11:20? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You assisted, I think, in the searches made of the basement +area? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. You made some of these searches yourself? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, I--now, I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you know him now, of course. Did you on November 24, +prior to the time that Oswald was shot, did you know of the existence +of a person named Jack Ruby? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I had heard the name. But so far as ever meeting him +personally, I don't think that I ever had. If I did, I don't remember +it from seeing his pictures. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is what I wanted to ask you, on the 24th, if you had +met him and had formed a sufficient impression upon your mind so that +you would have recognized him at all? + +Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you did see his picture and perhaps you saw him +after his arrest? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I saw his picture. I have not seen him personally. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him in the basement area? + +Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who did? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That saw him in the basement? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Prior to the shooting? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you been in any discussion with anybody as to who +might have seen him and who might not have? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. I--there have been discussions to the +effect that if he were there, surely someone would have seen him and +recognized him. I mean, just in informal discussions, how could he be +there. + +Mr. HUBERT. And yet, of course, he was there? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I understand that. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, you know of no evidence that would indicate that +anyone did actually see him? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard anyone say that he had seen him? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard anyone say that they knew that someone had +seen him there? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the discussions have been simply that since +he was there it is just amazing that he was not seen my anybody? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Except when I evaluate it. Having worked with those +reporters and around them I can understand how that could have +happened, because with as many a number of reporters that we dealt with +for those 2 days, it's a tough job knowing everyone personally. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you were directed to get into a car with a couple +of people and drive around to the Commerce Street side? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who gave you that direction? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant Dean. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you drove out you were driving the car, weren't +you? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's--no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you? Didn't you drive the car? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who drove it? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Lieutenant Pierce. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce leave with the +car? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I was in the car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where were you seated in the car? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. In the front seat. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'm sorry. The front right seat? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was in the back seat? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant Maxey. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first get seated in the car? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Are you referring to time? + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's get it this way, I understand that you had to get out +of the car to move some of the people out of the way so that the car +could go up the ramp. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you were seated in the car in the basement or parking +area at first when you started off? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Actually on the ramp that comes from the parking area +to the ramp that goes between the two streets. + +Mr. HUBERT. Got in the car there? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to get out? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you have to get out? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. After he traveled about 10 to 15 feet. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why did you have to get out? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Because the reporters had formed on the north. + +Mr. HUBERT. Main Street? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. On the north. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you just use the street directions. Main Street +ramp? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Main Street ramp, but by the "ramp" I don't mean the +incline, where it flattens out. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand. On that flat part. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right. So, I had to get out of the car and move +them back to prevent hitting some of them. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that area do you think? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I would estimate 15 to 25. + +Mr. HUBERT. And they were standing shoulder to shoulder? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I didn't get--this impression. They were standing in +wait of the expected departure of Oswald, and they were just mingled, +and you know how reporters act and operate in trying to position +themselves. + +Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't enough that you were able to blow the horn, you +had to get out? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. We didn't even attempt to blow the horn to cause +confusion. First of all, this is the entrance and not the exit. They +are not expecting a vehicle coming out of there, they are not paying +attention to us. They are looking in the direction they expect Oswald +to come out from, so, I got out and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. When the path cleared up, you got back in again? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was the window on the right down? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. The window was down. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got to the top of the ramp, what happened? +That is when you got to the Main Street, the sidewalk area, and, of +course, the street area, would you describe in your own words just what +happened? What did you see? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I saw officer Vaughn and about six persons. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where was Vaughn now when you first saw him? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. In front of our automobile about the middle of the +sidewalk. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he do? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. He stepped to the right and about to the curb, or just +off of the curb, glanced to his right and looked back and waved us on. + +Mr. HUBERT. You went into Main Street and turned left? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he go very much out into the street to assist you to +get out? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You say he stepped off of the curb, though? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Possibly one step off of the curb. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then he looked to his right and his left? How did he do +that? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. How was he standing? With his back to you? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. My impression was he was facing us and my impression +was that he glanced to his right, which would be to the westbound +traffic and Lieutenant Pierce, the driver, was on the left and in a +position to see the eastbound traffic. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, turned his head so that the back of his +head would have been towards the Main Street ramp? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And he stepped off of the curb just about 2 feet? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, I would say in one step, 2 feet. + +Mr. HUBERT. Didn't go into the middle of the street? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And he waved you on? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. He immediately turned back and glanced like this +[indicating], and turned back, and was walking back to his position on +the sidewalk. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say from the time you all reached the Main +Street exit point to the time that Vaughn started to walk back to his +position, it took only a matter of 3 or 4 seconds? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. We didn't even stop the car. It would be very few +seconds. + +Mr. HUBERT. No stop at all? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Just a--to prevent from hitting a pedestrian walking +on the sidewalk. Now, there wasn't one walking, but to take a quick +glance like you would do approaching a sidewalk, the car was slowed, +and immediately--at this time everything happened at once. He slowed +the car, Vaughn walked and glanced and waved us on. He accelerated and +we went on to Main Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you turn your head to the right when you got to the +sidewalk? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was not a soul? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Didn't see anyone in sight in--except Officer Vaughn +and the persons that I say were on the left. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was nobody coming up Main Street +towards Harwood? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I can't say that there was not. I can say that I +didn't see them. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is all you can do, of course. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And there was no one standing there that you saw? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, now, the man that you later knew to be Jack +Ruby, you did not see either walking up, or standing by on the Pearl +Street side of Main Street exit? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you look at the people on the left side? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I only glanced. I just---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you identify anybody? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Not a person. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you specifically say that Ruby was not there? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All you can say is, I take it then, the man you have since +learned to be Ruby was--you didn't see him? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. If he was there, you didn't see him? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I didn't see him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you go as far as to say, turning again to your +right-hand side, that there was nobody on your right-hand side at all? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. I can say that there was no one in the immediate +vicinity within, I would say--well, it was apparent that--15 feet away +from me I saw a group of people standing, and to the right---- + +Mr. HUBERT. On the---- + +Sergeant PUTNAM. To the left, and to the right I saw no one in the +immediate vicinity of us. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is immediately upon coming out? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the person who has subsequently been identified +as Jack Ruby among the reporters that he pushed through? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any such person come down the ramp as you were +going up the ramp? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. How far down Main Street to Pearl do you think you can see? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, it is a clear view to Pearl Street, but my +attention would not have been directed by someone half a block away. It +would have made no impression. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, your thought is that there was nobody at least as far +as a half a block away? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's my belief. + +Mr. HUBERT. And Vaughn turned immediately back and went back to his +position? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Was walking back in that direction. In other words, we +could have been close enough to touch him. + +Mr. HUBERT. As you passed, he was walking back. + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. And therefore, he was facing towards the entrance? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him call to anybody up there? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, is there anything else you would like to say? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. Well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Any other facts that aren't covered in the documents which +we have identified here as 5071, 5072 and 5073? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I do not believe you have been interviewed by any member of +the Commission's staff at all prior to this deposition? + +Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think that is all. If any fact that has not +been developed in these reports and in your testimony should come to +your attention, I hope you will free to let us know about it if you +think it is a material fact. All we are seeking is to get the facts. +That's all. And if, by chance, you have forgotten something and you +should remember it at a later date, please contact us through the +United States attorney's office and tell them that you have a fact that +you would like to report that you have overlooked and we will make +arrangements to see you again. + +But at this time, we will give you the 3 days' notice. + +I thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIE B. SLACK + +The testimony of Willie B. Slack was taken at 11 a.m., on March 31, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Patrolman Willie--is that Willie? +Not William? + +Mr. SLACK. Willie. + +Mr. HUBERT. Willie B. Slack. Mr. Slack, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a +member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's +Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the rules +provided by the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and +the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, together with the rules of +procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the +Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a +sworn deposition from you, Mr. Slack. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Slack, the nature of the +inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death +of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general +inquiry. Now, Mr. Slack, you have appeared here today by virtue of the +general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is general +counsel of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by +this Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice that your +deposition is going to be taken, but the rules also provide that you +may waive the 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so. And are you +now willing to waive that 3-day notice? + +Mr. SLACK. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, will you stand and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear then to tell the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SLACK. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please? + +Mr. SLACK. W. B. Slack. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Mr. SLACK. Thirty-nine. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? + +Mr. SLACK. 5605 Sumatra, Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation? + +Mr. SLACK. Patrolman. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a patrolman on the Dallas Police +Force? + +Mr. SLACK. Ten years. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular assignment? + +Mr. SLACK. Working in the jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. What duties do you have there, in general? + +Mr. SLACK. We answer the telephone, and when the officers bring the +worksheets down, we book them on a booking form. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, book the prisoners in and out? + +Mr. SLACK. Check them out when somebody comes in and pays them out. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "Pays them out," you mean, makes bond? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; or writs. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or writs? Oh, you mean if they are released on a writ? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your office then is the control center, as +it were, for people coming in and people coming out? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You work in shifts, of course, like all the rest of the +police? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963, the day that Oswald +was shot? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty? + +Mr. SLACK. 6:30 a.m., in the morning. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had what is called the first platoon, I think. Eleven +o'clock, oh, no--I beg your pardon. That would be the second platoon. + +Mr. SLACK. Second platoon. + +Mr. HUBERT. Comes on at 6:30 and goes off at 2:30? + +Mr. SLACK. 2:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you were there between 11 and the time Oswald +was shot? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before that day? + +Mr. SLACK. Not to my knowledge; no. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the occasion when Oswald was brought down to +be transferred to the county jail? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what you know about it in your own words. + +Mr. SLACK. Well, he got off the elevator and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before that time? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; and he was flanked on either side by detectives and +Captain Fritz was with the detectives, and they went out the swinging +doors, which is into the basement of the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that was? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time was it? + +Mr. SLACK. 11:20. + +Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that? + +Mr. SLACK. When a prisoner is released from jail we have to put the +time on a booking card, we have to put them down. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Does that booking card exist? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you examined it briefly? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long ago? + +Mr. SLACK. I examined it before I came to work, before I came over here. + +Mr. HUBERT. When? This morning, or yesterday, or---- + +Mr. SLACK. That was yesterday. + +Mr. HUBERT. What does it show? + +Mr. SLACK. It shows---- + +Mr. HUBERT. About the time? + +Mr. SLACK. Transferred to the county at 11:20 a.m., on the 24th of +November. + +Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that entry in? + +Mr. SLACK. It is in mine. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you fix the time? How do you normally fix the +time? + +Mr. SLACK. Well, we put the date and the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is, do you have an electric clock? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; do it with a pencil, or fountain pen. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean you rely upon your watch? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; we have a clock on the wall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is it accurate? + +Mr. SLACK. That, I can't answer, because---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean, you all go by it? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Time is of importance in going in and going out of +prisoners, isn't it? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; it sure is important. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if the clock is checked at any time to see if +it is? + +Mr. SLACK. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed it to be wrong? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I sure haven't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, it certainly needs checking procedure to see if it +loses time, or gains, or stops because of the electricity being cut +off, or something of that sort. + +Mr. SLACK. Yes. Well, if the time was different from one of our watches +I imagine they would call "Time," sir. Of course, we call "Time," all +the time usually checking the news, you know, so it is checked that way. + +Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, that clock is accurate; right? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. If it were in error, what would you say would be the +greatest error it could be in? + +Mr. SLACK. Well, it couldn't be over a minute or two either way, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened after that? + +Mr. SLACK. Well, he went out the door, and then my job there was +to, when the lieutenant told me that they had got in the car or +transportation which was to be used, they then would notify me, and I +was supposed to notify the dispatcher that they were---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What were you supposed to notify the dispatcher? + +Mr. SLACK. That they were on their way. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you received any orders about that? + +Mr. SLACK. Well---- + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean, who told you that, to notify the dispatcher? + +Mr. SLACK. Lieutenant Wiggins. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, notifying the dispatcher, would mean that it would go +over the radio? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; they have a direct line to the county. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, the purpose of notifying the dispatcher, so far as you +know, was for them to telephone the county that the prisoner was on his +way? + +Mr. SLACK. Apparently; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told that by Wiggins or had you been told +that--merely to notify the dispatcher? + +Mr. SLACK. The---- + +Mr. HUBERT. We have to take it on the record. Just---- + +Mr. SLACK. Well, my letter there I wrote that--do you have a copy of it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. SLACK. That I--well, I can say that I was told to tell the +dispatcher that he was en route to the county. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the dispatcher was? + +Mr. SLACK. Jim Farr is the dispatcher. + +Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean on that particular day? + +Mr. SLACK. Well, he is, like I say, the dispatcher up there, but when +I called on this particular occasion, I got Miss Cason first, and then +I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was to report to Miss Cason that the man +had been shot? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; but---- + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to Miss Cason? + +Mr. SLACK. Told her that Oswald had been shot, and that we needed a +doctor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you call for an ambulance, tell her you needed an +ambulance? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your remark to Miss Cason was simply that Oswald had been +shot and to get a doctor? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; best of my knowledge. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you write out the entry which you say was in +your own hand showing that the prisoner was being transferred at 11:20? +Was that done at 11:20 or later? + +Mr. SLACK. I would--I believe I wrote it out then. In other words, +what I am in the habit of doing is this. That is something that comes +naturally. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the normal procedure is that the time of +release and the time of action taken---- + +Mr. SLACK. I was standing there---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish my question; is done simultaneously with the +act itself? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that normally, when a prisoner leaves you make these +notations, and you look to see what time it is. You enter the time, and +that is how the notation is made? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, was there any deviation from that +normal procedure in the case of the transfer of Oswald? + +Mr. SLACK. The deviation, it was in this point, that we usually have +it filled out before the prisoner is brought down. In this particular +case, we didn't know when he was going to be transferred, so therefore, +we had to write down when he did come down. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you hadn't pulled his card? + +Mr. SLACK. I had his card pulled. I knew he was going to be +transferred, presumably. + +Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't know the time; so, therefore, you hadn't +entered anything? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I had it on the clipboard on the counter where we +always keep them. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection about what you entered there +with reference to the shooting, that is to say, was the entry made +before or after the shooting? + +Mr. SLACK. It was made before the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was made in the interval when he came +out of the elevator and they walked out? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. SLACK. [Witness nods head.] + +Mr. HUBERT. She can't--you have to say something, because the reporter +can't record silence. + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I forget. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see the shooting, as I understand it? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I saw the shuffle out there. + +Mr. HUBERT. And then they brought Ruby and Oswald in? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did either Ruby or Oswald say anything that you, yourself +heard? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice the time that they brought them in? Who came +in first? + +Mr. SLACK. I don't know, sir. Like I say, the lieutenant told me to +call the doctor, and, of course, my back end was turned a few seconds. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "lieutenant," I believe you are referring to +Lieutenant Wiggins? + +Mr. SLACK. Wiggins; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you called the dispatcher and told him what you said +you told him, and what happened next, to your recollection? + +Mr. SLACK. Well, it was just about over with then except the ambulance +did come in, and, of course, that was a little confusion around there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the times of, say the movement +of Ruby up in the elevator to the jail, or the time when the ambulance +arrived and the time when it left with Oswald? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; not the exact time; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. No record was made on any of that? + +Mr. SLACK. Not that I know of. Not in our office. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is the form called that you filled in with your own +hand about the time of movement? Does that have a number? + +Mr. SLACK. We call it a booking card. + +Mr. HUBERT. Booking card? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I think you testified that yesterday you looked at it +to refresh your memory and it is in your handwriting, and it states +11:20? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Apparently sometime ago, let's say on December 12, you were +interviewed by the FBI, and at that time you stated it was between +11:25 and 11:30 that Oswald was brought down. Can you assist us in +explaining this discrepancy between the two times? Do you remember that +interview? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I remember the interview; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Edmond Hardin and Paul Scott, and yourself? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall telling them it was 11:25? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now about it, or are you +relying upon what you saw on the records yesterday when you looked at +it? + +Mr. SLACK. That would be the way I would have to go on it, sir, would +be the records there. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the record which is normally made +extemporaneously with the act is really more accurate than your present +memory right now? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or would have been more accurate actually than your +statement to the FBI agent if, in fact, you did say that? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to just read these two documents. The one, +the FBI report, and the other, the letter. Have you had occasion to +read the two documents I have handed you, sir? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark them then for identification. + +Mr. SLACK. There is a little discrepancy---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I'm going to give you an opportunity to explain them. + +For the purpose of identification I am marking what purports to be +a copy of a letter addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police, +apparently signed by Willie B. Slack, dated November 27, 1963. I am +marking it "Dallas, Texas, March 31. 1963, Exhibit No. 5116, deposition +of W. B. Slack." Putting my name below it. It has only one page. For +the purpose of identification, I am marking what purports to be an FBI +interview of Willie B. Slack by Agents Hardin and Scott, which took +place on December 2, 1963. I am marking the first page of that document +with the following, "Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit No. 5117. +Deposition of W. B. Slack," and signing my name, and on the second page +thereof, on the lower right-hand corner I am placing my initial. Now, +Patrolman Slack, I show you the document marked Exhibit 5116, and ask +you if you have read it, and if it is a correct statement? + +Mr. SLACK. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that a correct statement? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may show that we are both talking about +the same thing, same document, I wonder if you will just put your name +below mine. Now, we will refer to a document--in two pages--that I have +marked a moment ago for identification as "5117," and ask you if you +have read that, and if that is correct, or if you have any corrections +or observation or comments to make with reference to that document? For +the purpose of identification will you mark these two documents with +your name where my name is, and with your initials where my initials +are, and then you can make the comments if you want to correct it or +modify it and so forth. + +Mr. SLACK. You want me to mark it before I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Just sign your name on that, and on the second page write +your initials. That's right. Now, have you any comments to make, or any +corrections to make concerning that document? + +Mr. SLACK. Well, on your second page, in here, the document here stated +that Patrolman Slack cleared his office. I didn't have anything to +do with security in the office. Only part I was in charge would be +the immediate area in which I was standing, and nobody was in there, +of course, but our personnel. Of course, I believe I did make the +statement to them after they had cleared it, it wasn't no one that had +come in except authorized personnel. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are speaking of the second to last paragraph +on the second page and you want to modify that paragraph so that it +will conform with the statement you have just made, and which the +stenographer has recorded? + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I am not a supervisor or anything like that. + +Mr. HUBERT. I notice also, and I believe you have already testified +about this, but I think for the purposes of clarity, we ought to note +it, and that is that upon the first page there is a statement that +about 11:25 to 11:30, Oswald was brought down. + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your previous testimony actually has clarified that, but +it was those times that you were speaking about in this deposition +earlier, that is to say, that as to this statement in "5117" the last +paragraph on the first page, wherein it says that you saw Oswald coming +down somewhere between 11:25 and 11:30, your previous statement or +testimony is more accurate, that is to say, that it was about 11:20. + +Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I think that modification ought to be noted, too. + +Mr. SLACK. Yes; I do too. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it is noted, because the reporter has taken it down. +Now, have you any other statement that you would like to make that has +not been covered? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; that is about all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by me or any other member of the +Commission's staff prior to the taking of this deposition? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir; except the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. The FBI? Yes. I mean the President's Commission? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. The staff of the President's Commission? + +Mr. SLACK. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; I think that is all. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DON FRANCIS STEELE + +The testimony of Don Francis Steele was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March +25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory +staff of the General Counsel on the President's Commission. Under the +provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, +and joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure +adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order +in the joint resolution I have been authorized to take the sworn +deposition from you, Mr. Steele. I now state that the general nature +of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon +the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, +Mr. Steele, the nature of our inquiry tonight is to determine the facts +you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you +may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Steele, you have appeared here +by virtue of a request made by the general counsel on the staff of the +President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, directed to Chief J. E. +Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to +a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the +rules adopted by this Commission also provide that you may waive that +3-day notice if you are willing to do so. Now, the question is: Are you +willing to waive the notice? + +Sergeant STEELE. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do +you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but +the truth, so help you God? + +Sergeant STEELE. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name? + +Sergeant STEELE. Don Francis Steele. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Sergeant STEELE. Thirty-two. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? + +Sergeant STEELE. 1707 Kent Drive, Arlington, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your occupation? + +Sergeant STEELE. Sergeant of police, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a sergeant of police? + +Sergeant STEELE. Five years and four months--five months, excuse me. + +Mr. HUBERT. What division or department of the Dallas Police Department? + +Sergeant STEELE. I am presently in the patrol division. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on November 22, 23, and 24, 1963? + +Sergeant STEELE. November 22 I was on a day off. + +Mr. HUBERT. 23d? + +Sergeant STEELE. 23d I worked in the Oak Cliff area. + +Mr. HUBERT. And the---- + +Sergeant STEELE. And the 24th, of course, the regular assignment is in +the Oak Cliff area, and I reported to that assignment. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you moved from that assignment? + +Sergeant STEELE. I came to the city hall, came to the police station +downtown early that morning to pick up some correspondence, telegrams, +and things like that, to take to Officer Tippit's widow. + +Mr. HUBERT. And what time was that? + +Sergeant STEELE. That was approximately 9:15. + +Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that? + +Sergeant STEELE. Well, the captain was bringing in some of the +patrolmen from in the field, from all the stations, and I asked +Lieutenant Pierce if there was anything he needed me to do before I +left, and he said, "Well--" told me I'd better stick around for a +while. He might need me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything later on? + +Sergeant STEELE. Well, I stayed there and in the patrol office for 15 +or 20 minutes, and then the captain came in---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Which captain? + +Sergeant STEELE. Captain Talbert, C. E. Talbert. He told me to come +on and go with him, and he wanted to look the situation over outside. +We walked down the stairs to the first floor where the corporation +court is located and out the door on the Commerce Street--and there +were several--they blocked those buildings directly across the street +from the police building. He told me to get a man, or get as many +people as I needed and check the buildings over there to make sure +that there weren't any doors open, or somebody wasn't concealed inside +the building. I got a patrolman, I believe it was Officer Jez. We +went over there, checked all the doors in the front. They were all +secure. We climbed up the fire escape and checked the roofs of all of +the buildings directly across from the vehicular exit on the Commerce +Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. When that was completed, what did you do? + +Sergeant STEELE. Not much of anything for a while. Stayed down there in +the basement for I guess 30 or 40 minutes and everything was kind of at +a standstill. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time was that? + +Sergeant STEELE. About the time I finished checking the buildings, +and everything, I guess it was--now, wait a minute. Excuse me. Then +I reported--after I checked those buildings, I reported to Captain +Talbert that there was a large crowd of pedestrians on the sidewalk +right outside of the vehicular route, and he--told me to get some men, +some reserve officers if I could, and move them across the street onto +the south side of Commerce Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that? + +Sergeant STEELE. Yes, I got five reserve officers and took them out +there and told them what I wanted them to do. Helped them do it. Moved +all the pedestrians across over to the south side of the street, and +I stationed two of them at the corner of Harwood and Commerce, the +northeast corner, with instructions to restrict any pedestrian traffic. +In other words, not to allow them to come back to that vehicular exit, +and I put two more down at Pearl and Commerce Street, and one at the +door to city hall with the same instructions. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the Commerce---- + +Sergeant STEELE. The municipal building. The nearest door to the +municipal building. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any on the Main Street door to the municipal +building? + +Sergeant STEELE. No, sir; I never got to the Main Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any officers to direct traffic at the +intersection of Main and Pearl, or to control traffic? + +Sergeant STEELE. Well, we started--can I go on? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; surely. + +Sergeant STEELE. Well, we'll get to that. After I got these reserve +people put out, as I say, I got down--went down in the basement and +talked to the captain for a few minutes. And I stood around and things +were kind of at a standstill there. There was lots of television and +camera people in there, and about 10:30, I guess, the captain told +Sergeant Dean, who related to myself and Sergeant Putnam that they +would bring this armored car in and the armored car was going to go +down Main Street to the county jail, and he said to get all the regular +patrol officers, all the regular officers and assign them to traffic +intersections, traffic corners. + +Mr. HUBERT. On what street? + +Sergeant STEELE. On Main Street, and I just helped Sergeant Dean make +the assignments. I don't recall whether I specifically assigned a man +to Main and Pearl, but then the captain came along a few minutes later +and said it had been changed, that we were going to run the armored +car down Elm Street, so, whatever men we may have assigned to Main +and Pearl, that is where he would have been, and he was taken off the +assignment. They never went to it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Okay. So, as far as you know there were no police officers +of any sort, reserve or regular directing traffic or controlling it in +any way on the corner of Main and Pearl? + +Sergeant STEELE. To the best of my knowledge, there was no regular +officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. What about a reserve officer? + +Sergeant STEELE. I couldn't say that. + +Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the original plan to assign one to Pearl and +Main, wasn't carried out because of the change in plans, and that man, +whoever he was, went to Pearl and Elm? + +Sergeant STEELE. Yes. I think that it was--let's see. I believe it was +one of my men from Oak Cliff, but I'm not sure, but he never did get to +it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Sergeant STEELE. We didn't even leave the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when the shot was fired? + +Sergeant STEELE. I was at the county jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. I mean in the basement? + +Sergeant STEELE. No; I had left. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you had left, so, you weren't in this building at all? + +Sergeant STEELE. I left about 15 minutes before it occurred. See, we +didn't have enough officers, enough radio patrolmen to fill all the +corners to put a man at each intersection on Elm Street, so, I went to +the county to contact the traffic people and see if I could get three +men from them, that is how many we needed. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul that lives in +Arlington? + +Sergeant STEELE. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with a place called "The Bull Pen" there? + +Sergeant STEELE. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is "The Bull Pen"? + +Sergeant STEELE. It is a barbecue place, sell beer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the manager of it? + +Sergeant STEELE. No, no; I can't recall being in that place more than +once or twice. + +Mr. HUBERT. And the name Ralph Paul doesn't mean anything to you? + +Sergeant STEELE. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ruby? + +Sergeant STEELE. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. How well do you know him? + +Sergeant STEELE. Through contacts, various contacts when I was a +patrolman. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him? + +Sergeant STEELE. Well, I had actually first met him, or heard of, or +saw Jack Ruby, I guess, in 1955, about 8 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you recognize him by sight, do you think, if you saw +him? + +Sergeant STEELE. Yes; I feel like I would, although, it has been +several years since I have seen him in person. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to observe the number of people who +were standing in the Main Street ramp part of the basement just at the +entrance of the jail corridor? Do you know what I mean? In other words, +as you were standing in the basement looking toward Main Street where +the jail corridor intersects the ramp---- + +Sergeant STEELE. Right at the corner---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Right at the corner, and looking toward Main Street, did +you have occasion to observe how many people were in that area just +shortly before the shooting? + +Sergeant STEELE. Well, 15 minutes would be as close as I could go, +and at that time only probably 10 or 12, kind of milling around. +Reporters, television people walking back and forth and that sort of +thing. + +Mr. HUBERT. You left the building about 11? + +Sergeant STEELE. Approximately 11; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of car Jack Ruby drives? + +Sergeant STEELE. No. Years ago seems to me like he had a Buick, but +that was years ago when I was a patrolman and it has been over 5 years. +I think he had a Buick at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have not been interviewed by me or any member of +the Commission's staff prior to this deposition tonight, have you, sir? + +Sergeant STEELE. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you anything else you wish to add? + +Sergeant STEELE. I guess I ought to mention this officer who was with +me during all of this. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was that? + +Sergeant STEELE. J. F. Harrison. + +Mr. HUBERT. By the way, I meant to ask you, you have read those +statements? + +Sergeant STEELE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'll mark the one dated November 25, 1963, addressed to +Chief of Police Curry, apparently the original was signed by you, by +placing on that document, "Dallas, Texas, March 25th, 1964. Exhibit +5098. Deposition of D. F. Steele," and mark my name below it, and I +have marked another document which purports to be an interview by FBI +Agents Robertson and Scott of you on December 3, 1963, by marking the +first page, "Dallas, Texas, March 25th, 1964, Exhibit 5097, deposition +of D. F. Steele." And I sign my name. On the second page of the +document I have placed my initials on the bottom of the right-hand +corner of the page. I would like to ask you if you have read those, and +if those statements are correct? + +Sergeant STEELE. I have read them. The only thing that I would say, in +paragraph--this would be No. 6. Let's see. One, two, three, four, five, +be paragraph No. 6. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of Exhibit 50---- + +Sergeant STEELE. 5097. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Sergeant STEELE. It mentions that I assisted Sergeant Dean in +redistributing the newsmen and TV men in the basement area, but +actually, I didn't do that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Other than that correction, are those two exhibits correct, +so far as you know? + +Sergeant STEELE. Can I clarify one? + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; certainly. + +Sergeant STEELE. On page 2, of that same---- + +Mr. HUBERT. 5097? + +Sergeant STEELE. Yes, sir; paragraph No. 7, says that I did not have +knowledge of security measures in effect in the police building. I had +knowledge that there was some type of pass required, but this was my +first contact with it, and it was being handled by the other sergeant, +so, consequently, I didn't know too much about what was required to +enter the basement, but I knew that the men on the checkpoint did know +what they were supposed to be checking for. And the next paragraph says +I had not seen Ruby in approximately 2 years. I'd say probably more +like 3 years when I was a jail sergeant. + +Mr. HUBERT. Any other corrections or additions you wish to make? + +Sergeant STEELE. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, so that the record may show that we are talking about +the same document would you put your name below mine where it appears +and your initials below mine where they appear on the second page. Your +name there. + +Sergeant STEELE. Just sign my name right here? + +Mr. HUBERT. That's right; and just put your initials on the bottom. + +Sergeant STEELE. Down here? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and then the other single documents just sign your +name below mine. All right, sir. Thank you very much. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF ROY EUGENE VAUGHN + +The testimony of Roy Eugene Vaughn was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April 17, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the +advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. +Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, +1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of +procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive +order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn +statement from you. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of +Lee Harvey Oswald. + +In particular to you, Mr. Vaughn, the nature of the inquiry today is +to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any +other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and +more particularly about the entry or possible entry of Ruby into the +basement through the Main Street ramp. Did you get a letter directed to +you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. To appear here? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. That letter was a written request, written by Mr. J. Lee +Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to you asking you to appear; +is that correct? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days from this +day? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and take the oath? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Roy Eugene Vaughn. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I am 29. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live? + +Mr. VAUGHN. 3231 Loganwood Drive, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Police officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Almost 6 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. What rank or rating do you hold now? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Patrolman. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty at the police department on Sunday, +November 24? + +Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. What time did you report for duty? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I'd say at approximately 9 a.m. we got a call to call the +patrol office. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean your normal station was not at headquarters? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where was your normal station? + +Mr. VAUGHN. At this particular month, being the month we worked days, +and I work relief--I don't work any certain district--and I work just +more or less wherever I am needed. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, they let you know at your home in some way? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I had already reported for work. I was working +with squad 105 that particular morning, which is in the downtown area. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's a patrol car? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--district 105, and approximately at 9 a.m. I got a call +to call 511, which is patrol headquarters. Officer L. C. Taylor, who +answered the phone, advised me to report to the city hall and park my +car and report to 511. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is 511? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Which would be the patrol office--that's the extension +number which is commonly referred to as such. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a partner? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you report? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I would say approximately 9:15, Mr. Hubert. + +Mr. HUBERT. And when you got there what happened? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I walked in the--there was a little small assembly room +off of the main office, and I walked in there--there was several men, +officers in there--there was Officer Patterson, Officer Brock, and I +think R. C. Nelson, I believe, came in a little later, and they had the +coffee pot on and so we, I think most of us got a cup of coffee and was +just sitting there talking. + +Mr. HUBERT. What happened then? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Then Lieutenant Pierce walked in and told me and Officer +Nelson and Officer Brock and Officer Patterson to report to Sergeant +Dean in the basement, and he told me to tell Sergeant Dean when this +was secured, when the basement was secured, to leave two men in the +basement and secure the others. + +Mr. HUBERT. To leave two men in the basement and to what? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said after this was all completed, this +transferring was completed, to leave two men--that means to leave two +men in the basement area and to secure the other two. + +Mr. HUBERT. And to secure the other two what? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Two men--you see, there were four of us that went down and +he said to leave two in the basement and to secure the other two. + +Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "secure the other two?" + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that means just turn them loose and send them back to +their regular duties. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, of the four men, you were to help in +whatever Dean was doing, and then he told you, "Tell Dean--leave two +men in the basement and turn the other two loose?" + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that's after everything was completed. That's his +message that he more or less sent by me to Sergeant Dean. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that term "secure" mean to turn the men +loose--does that mean they would go off duty or that they were to +report back somewhere else to work? + +Mr. VAUGHN. They were to report back for somewhere else. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any part in the checkout of the basement? + +Mr. VAUGHN. As far as actually checking the basement? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was assigned by Sergeant Putnam, who was with +Sergeant Dean in the basement, when we got down there--Sergeant Putnam +assigned me to the Main Street ramp and I believe he assigned also +Patrolman Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time did he assign you to the Main Street +entrance? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I would say, Mr. Hubert, somewhere around 9:30--I couldn't +be definite. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; he said not to let anybody enter the basement except +police and the press, and only the press when they had an official +press card, and if I didn't recognize any officer by sight to require +identification. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you understand by that that he meant that even if an +officer was in what purported to be a uniform, that you weren't to let +him in anyhow unless he had an identification? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said--the way I understand it, Mr. Hubert, if I +recognized them by sight and knew them to be an officer, and by my own +knowing them, then otherwise, where I think it was more applied--to +where--he said there would possibly be some Secret Service men and +possibly would be some Federal agents I didn't know, and would I +require identification from them. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you understand to mean by proper press +accreditation or identification? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, there was one case where--there are several different +types of press cards. The only one that I would accept from them which +would be, and I think in one or two cases, was the official card either +issued by the States of Texas or by the City of Dallas, which contained +the photograph of the reporter. + +Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, even though they had something that looked like +a press card, you understood that you were to turn them away? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact turn away some people? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I had one particular--yes, I turned away several people +that were not press--they would try to enter the ramp. Of course, this +is--normally a person going to the jail, which is immediately off of +the bottom of the ramp--a lot of people will try to use that ramp as an +entrance to the jail and there were a lot of people that come up there +and said that they were going to the jail and I turned them away and +told them to go some other way. + +There was one reporter that come up and I believe he was with either +Associated Press or United Press, I don't recall exactly, and he had +on a sweater--first he asked me if some man was in the basement, some +other reporter, and I told him I didn't know, and he said he wanted to +go down and see him, and I told him I couldn't permit him to without +identification, and he pulled out a pass which is--I don't know how +to express it--a large yellow pass, more or less a complimentary +press pass and I told him I couldn't accept that and he dug around in +his billfold and he finally did come up with a pass. I believe this +particular pass was issued by the State of California or the City of +Los Angeles, but it was similar to our official pass. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized that? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all prior to this occasion? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had met Mr. Ruby prior to this time, Mr. Hubert. + +Mr. HUBERT. How many times would you say? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I would say two or three times to be at the most. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long before November 24? + +Mr. VAUGHN. When I was a rookie in 1959, I met Mr. Ruby while I was +working a district out of Oak Lawn and I was more or less being trained +at that time, riding with another senior officer and an occasion arose +where they had to contact him about a white waitress that he had +worked--had worked for him and had been intimate with some colored +musicians that he had. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you met him on that occasion? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; actually, I was just there. I hadn't--I knew the +man. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview last? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I'd say just a very few minutes--I don't recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. When was the second time you saw him? + +Mr. VAUGHN. The second time was, I believe it was in 1961, and either +the last of December or the middle of December. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that occasion. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had him on a traffic violation--a minor traffic +violation. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him as the man you had seen before? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Not until he told me who he was and I reprimanded him and +let him go--didn't even issue him a ticket. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview if we can call it that, with +Ruby, last? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I would say at most probably 5 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. When was the third time you saw him, and I think the third +time would have been the last time, too? + +Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall that's about the last time I have ever seen the +fellow. + +Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said there were three times? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, either two or three--I couldn't be exact--I believe, +like I said, I probably may have seen him more, but you know, just +passing him when I was working on the district, but like I say, it +would be difficult for me to recall definitely the times--I can recall +definitely two times. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to either of his clubs or any of his +clubs? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I have been to the Vegas Club, I would say, possibly twice. + +Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel or the Sovereign? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had the Carousel. + +Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Slipper or any of his other clubs? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had them. + +Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that you went to the Vegas, did you +see him? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--ever seeing him. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long ago were those occasions? + +Mr. VAUGHN. This would also be in 1959. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, the last time you really saw him was in December 1961? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I believe it would be in December 1961--there were other +occasions that I was in his club. I was on duty and actually just +making a routine check or answering a call there. I had actually never +been in his club except on business. + +Mr. HUBERT. On those occasions that you did go on business, do you +recall having seen him? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't, I don't recall seeing him. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you stated you were posted at the Main Street ramp, by +that I take it you mean the exit of the Main Street ramp, that is to +say, where it comes out? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; out onto the street--onto the sidewalk. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, physically where did you maintain your post? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I maintained it inside--actually, I would say 2 or 3 feet +inside--actually--of the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you weren't on the sidewalk? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no; I was inside--standing inside the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. The ramp is about how many feet wide? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate it--I would say it was 12 to +15 feet. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing more or less in the middle? + +Mr. VAUGHN. In the middle. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that was about from 9:30 on? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave that post? + +Mr. VAUGHN. The only time when I ever moved out of my position there +was when this car which was driven by Lieutenant Pierce exited by that +ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Before we get to that, let me ask you this--you mentioned +that on several occasions people came in, identified themselves and you +let them through, or you turned away other people? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What steps did you take to maintain the security of your +post while you were talking to such people so that other people +wouldn't sneak through? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I was still standing in the middle of the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. It would be impossible, you think, for anybody to pass on +either side of you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. That's right--without seeing them. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming to the time when the automobile passed through, +tell us what you know about that? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I would say it was approximately a quarter or a +little past--about 18 minutes past 11, somewhere around there--I +wouldn't be exact on the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, they established, I think, that the shooting occurred +at 11:21 and I'm just judging by the minutes before. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you say is that you don't really have +a direct recollection of what time it was, but you reconstructed it +with the information given to you that the shooting took place at such +and such a time? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--at such and such a time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's do it this way. How long before you heard the shot +did that car driven by Rio Pierce pass by you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I would say not over 3 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you recognize anybody in the car? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when the car came up? + +Mr. VAUGHN. The first thing I noticed the car--still standing inside +the ramp--and I heard someone at the bottom of the ramp holler, "Watch +the car," and when I looked down you could just get a view of the front +end of the car coming up the ramp. It had its red lights on, which were +in the grill. As it come on up the ramp, I stepped to my right, and it +come up the ramp---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You stepped towards Pearl Street? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Pearl Street, and I stepped to my right in +order to get out of the car's way, and I stepped out on the sidewalk +somewhere between the sidewalk and the curb, I believe it was right +around the curb, and I glanced--it would be toward the eastbound +traffic, which would be traffic towards Pearl Street to see that +traffic was clear, and then motioned them on and I turned around and +walked back. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not go into the street at all? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not pass the curb? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe I did at all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that when you stepped to the right and walked +on the sidewalk to the curb you looked for the traffic--to your right? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, the way I was facing it would be to my left, +which would be west. + +Mr. HUBERT. It would be towards Harwood Street? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Harwood Street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was your back then toward the ramp entrance? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; my back was not toward the ramp, I was standing to +the right of the ramp where I still had a view of the ramp itself, the +entrance to the ramp. My back would have been toward Pearl Street--it +would be towards the east. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever turn your head or your body toward your right, +that is, toward Pearl Street? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall. All I done on that, Mr. Hubert, +like I say, I walked out--I glanced west, which would be towards the +eastbound traffic going west and due to the fact that there were cars +parked along here on Main Street, I glanced to the west and seen there +was an opening in the eastbound traffic, which would be coming from the +west, and I just motioned them on. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not go out in the middle of the street to halt +traffic? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there many people standing around that entrance? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I would say at most, I believe, at most it would +be a half dozen, I think, who were standing there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing in front or to the side? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, there was one particular person that I recall that was +standing on my right, which would be toward Pearl Street--would be N. +J. Daniels. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did see him? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. He is a former policeman? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized him as such? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And he was in civilian clothes? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You know that little concrete or stone projection out into +the sidewalk? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that they have two of those, one on each side of +the ramp and they extend about 5 or 6 feet into the sidewalk from the +side of the building toward the curb--is it correct to say that they +are about 12 inches high? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they are a little higher--I believe they would be +about 18 inches high. + +Mr. HUBERT. On what side of the ramp was Daniels? + +Mr. VAUGHN. He would be on the east side, toward Pearl Street there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the Pierce car passed by, what did you do? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I walked back inside the ramp to my original post, which +was 2 or 3 feet inside. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until after the shot was fired? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone go by you after you returned to your post, +following the exit of the Rio Pierce car? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe there was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you qualify that by saying, "Not that you recall"--I +had understood from your previous testimony that it would have been +impossible for anybody to do so. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, as far as--actually, when I got inside the ramp, I +don't believe there was anybody that went by between the time that I +stepped back inside and the actual time of the shooting. When I say I +recall, well, I'll put it definite--I know there wasn't--I'll put it +that way. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's the way I had understood your previous testimony, +because I had asked you as to whether it were possible for anyone to +have passed by you previously when you were examining the credentials +of others. + +Mr. VAUGHN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I think your answer to me was--no, it was +impossible--they would have had to go either to the left or right of +you and you were standing in the middle of a 12-foot opening? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say, then, that after you got back to your +post, following the exit of Rio Pierce's car, that nobody passed you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Nobody passed me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did Jack Ruby pass you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car was coming out, what steps or +action did you take to maintain the security of your post while that +car was passing through? + +Mr. VAUGHN. The only steps, like I said, Mr. Hubert, on that--is when +I stepped out onto the sidewalks--why--I made sure that my view of the +entrance of the city hall was not completely blocked, that I could +still see the entrance to the right. + +Mr. HUBERT. You use the words "completely blocked," do you mean to +infer by that it could have been partially blocked? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; the only thing--when I stepped out, as the car +came out, I still had a view of the actual entrance to the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that part of your view was +blocked by the automobile itself? + +Mr. VAUGHN. It possibly--for an instant while the car was coming +out--actually out of the entrance--but after it cleared the ramp--no, +sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. After it cleared the entrance you returned your view to +your post, even though you weren't at it? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And nobody entered it at that time? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; they did not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack Ruby standing by that concrete or +marble--what do you call it? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Slab there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Standing by that slab there where Daniels was? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else with Daniels? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No; not that I recall seeing that morning. Now, Daniels +worked up there around approximately 2 or 3 feet--he was there quite +some time and during the morning there were several people that would +walk by the Main Street entrance and they would look in, more or less +curiosity seekers more than anything else. There were very few that +actually stopped and there was one particular man that did stop that +I recall--I don't know his name. He was on the left of the ramp which +would be toward the Harwood Street side. He used to be a shine boy in +the basement of the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some city hall janitorial workers, +particularly a man by the name of Fuqua--did you see any people dressed +in janitorial uniforms pass by? + +Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, I seen some men walk down the street there and +look in the ramp and they walked on. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which way were they coming from? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they were coming from the east. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is what direction? + +Mr. VAUGHN. From Pearl--towards Harwood. + +Mr. HUBERT. They just passed by? + +Mr. VAUGHN. They would have hesitated for just a minute. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long before the shooting they passed by? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate--just an estimate--I would +say it was probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would have been possible for anyone to +enter the basement who was approaching the Main Street ramp from Pearl +Street or the Western Union direction, while the Pierce car was exiting? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't believe it would. + +Mr. HUBERT. And why do you say that? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Because--due to the fact--the time, the period of +time--like I said, I had a view of the ramp from the period of time the +car actually come out, and I waved it on and walked back to the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know, of course, that Ruby says that's the way he +got in? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I realize that. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion about that statement? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did. + +Mr. HUBERT. You think he got in some other way? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know definitely, but I'll say he didn't come in +at the ramp. How he got in--that, I don't know, but I know--I don't +believe that he came in the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion beyond any reasonable doubt, and I think +you are familiar with that phrase as an officer, aren't you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby did not enter the basement through the ramp while +you were there? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that opinion so strong that if you were a juror, for +example, you would convict a man or acquit him, whichever it would be, +on the basis of your statement that he did not enter at that ramp? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, what do you mean by that? + +Mr. HUBERT. That's the reasonable doubt test, you see. + +Mr. VAUGHN. You mean as far as I am concerned--as far as what I think +about it, that I definitely do not think the man come down that ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. But I was testing the strength of your view. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I don't quite understand or follow you? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, here's what I had in mind--I'll put it this way--do +you have the moral conviction that Jack Ruby did not enter the basement +through the Main Street ramp to the degree that if that were an issue +in a case on which you were a juror, you would say that it is beyond a +reasonable doubt that he did not enter that way? + +Mr. VAUGHN. So far as the knowledge I have of it--no, sir--I do not. +I think if the question is that you think I would convict him on +the doubt--of the knowledge that I have that he did not enter that +ramp--yes, sir, I would. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it is beyond a reasonable doubt, +as far as you are concerned? + +Mr. VAUGHN. As far as I am concerned--yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man who turned out to be a police +mechanic? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Tom Chabot [spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t--I don't think I can +spell it actually--anyway, Chabot. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did he enter the basement? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, this was somewhat earlier--he pulled up in a city squad +car and started into the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. How much earlier was it, and earlier than what? + +Mr. VAUGHN. It was, I would say--it was approximately--just an +estimate, it would be somewhere around 10 o'clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man Chabot went into the basement +about an hour and 20 minutes before the shooting? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Somewhere around there--like I said--it would strictly be +an estimate on the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. What happened--he tried or he went through? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he pulled up in a city squad car and I told him I +couldn't allow him in the basement in a squad car and so, he backed the +car out and he parked it on Main Street, which would be actually east +toward Pearl Street from--it would be on my right from the entrance +or exit there--it would be on the right. He parked there and he got +out and he come back and he come back up where I was standing inside +the ramp, and he stood there a minute or two and talked to me, and, of +course, I had known Chabot ever since I had been there. He's married +to a policewoman, and he stood there a minute and he told me, he said, +"I've got to check the parking situation in the basement." + +He said on two previous dates he had had to work later until about +5:30--and so I told him to go ahead, due to the fact that I knew it was +Sunday--I seen him driving a squad car--I thought possibly maybe they +had sent for him, and there was several cars in the basement, so I told +him to go ahead, and I seen him walk down in there--I was standing, +and he was standing in my view--I could see him, and he walked down +there and I got the view when he was talking to Sergeant Dean, and in +2 or 3 minutes he had come back up. He stopped there and chatted with +me a minute and never said a thing, as far as telling him to leave the +basement, so then he got out and went and got in the squad car and left. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us what happened when you heard the shot? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, after I had stepped back in there when Lieutenant +Pierce had left--stepped back inside the ramp, it was, I would say, +not over 3 minutes I heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," and so--I +turned around and glanced--I couldn't see anything--all I could see was +an outline of a few figures at the bottom. + +Mr. HUBERT. You turned then so that your back was to Main Street and +you were looking around? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I was standing to a side view--I turned like this and +looked right just like this a little way. + +Mr. HUBERT. You looked over your shoulder? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't actually turn, and just immediately after that +I heard something that sounded like a shot, but you know, at the +point--it was something like an explosion, but it didn't sound loud +enough to actually be a shot. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, at that time there was just mass confusion. + +Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about a movement after you heard somebody +say, "Here he comes," and turned and looked back. + +Mr. VAUGHN. No; sir--as far as any movement on the street. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically, did you see any move forward? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you looking when you heard the shot? + +Mr. VAUGHN. When I heard the shot I was looking back outside the +entrance. + +Mr. HUBERT. Onto Main Street? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this straight then--you were standing there +facing Main Street? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. In the ramp? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Or a few feet inside the ramp? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," you glanced +over your shoulder, you saw nothing that was of significance? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then turned back? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then you heard the shots? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Then I heard the shots. + +Mr. HUBERT. And when you turned to look down the basement after you +heard "Here he comes," you did not see Jack Ruby down there? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no--like I said--the only view I had was--there were +so many people in there where it was just the very people on the +edge--their backs were to me. + +Mr. HUBERT. After you heard the shot, what did you do? + +Mr. VAUGHN. There was just mass confusion broke loose in the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your post? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I stepped back inside--the people outside--there was quite +a crowd beginning to collect outside--I stayed back inside and I drawed +my pistol and stood in the edge of the doorway in case anybody tried +to come out, because actually I didn't know what had happened, and +just immediately after that I seen some of them scuffling down there +and I seen a hand--several people scuffling--and I seen part of a hand +sticking out and it looked like it had a pistol in it, but that's all +I could see was just this part of the hand, and immediately after that +there was one man that broke away from the crowd and started up the +ramp. Of course, he was in civilian clothes, I couldn't tell who he +was, and just as he started, I guess he had taken very few steps from +the crowd, there was a reserve that hit him more or less a tackle like +and almost knocked him down. Still, they were far enough from me that +I couldn't actually tell who it was. And, so, in a minute this reserve +let him pass and he come on up the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the reserve was? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't. There were so many of those reserves you +know who some of them are and some of them you don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. The reserves let him go and he came up the ramp? + +Mr. VAUGHN. It was Detective E. O. Burgess. + +Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you let him out? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, he didn't go out. He just come up and helped me at top +of the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions or orders? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No. I asked him, I said, "What happened?" And he said, +"He's been shot." + +I said, "Who shot him?" And he said--well, he understood it was a +reporter and that was all that was said then, and then immediately +after that Captain Talbert, Capt. C. E. Talbert come up the ramp and +he told me that if anybody tried to leave to get their names and what +they had seen in the basement, and he went back down the ramp and +shortly thereafter there was a sergeant, I believe, it was Sergeant +Everett--I'm not real positive about that, but he brought me a book to +write anybody's name on that did try to leave. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody try to leave? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, one man--it was quite some time after the shooting +occurred--after this, one man tried to leave and he was a reporter up +here with WFAA--Dallas Morning News by the name of Millican. I asked +him his name. He wrote his name down and I asked him what he had seen. +He said he didn't see anything, that he didn't arrive until actually +after the shooting happened. + +Mr. HUBERT. How did he identify himself? + +Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, with a press card, if I'm not mistaken. I'm +not real positive about that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an incident in which a TV man by the name +of Jim Turner was involved? He had got out and came back in. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, there was two men that went out during the time +before the shooting actually happened? + +Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after the shooting. Let me see if I can refresh +your memory in this way--a WBAP-TV man went out to get some equipment, +apparently satisfied you that he could go out, and then when he tried +to come back in again, there was another man there, who you were not +allowing to pass through, and this other man asked this man Turner to +identify him to you; do you recall that incident? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I recall this--there was, like I said earlier, there was +two men that went out and got some camera equipment. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you said "earlier" you mean before the shot? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, yes, yes, sir; it was before the shot--it was shortly +after I was stationed on the ramp, I would say right around 10 o'clock. +They went out and got some camera equipment. I watched them as they +went across the street, the car was parked on Main Street, and then the +same two men--I made definitely sure of that, and when they come back +in, they were carrying equipment--one of these men that was in this--I +don't know his name--come back to the entrance of the ramp and looked +out and he had a taxicab parked on the north side of Main Street and +he waved at that cab and he told me they were waiting, actually, for +when the transfer was made and they were going to take this cab to the +county, and after the shooting, if I am not mistaken, the same man came +back--it was immediately after the shooting, and tried to get back in +the ramp--I would not let him in. I told him definitely that nobody +could get back down there and he said he had been down there, and I +said, "I'm sorry, I can't let you back in," but he had gone back in +carrying the equipment and come back and waved at this taxicab driver +after that, on the other side of the ramp, and then went back down +the ramp, and the next thing I knew he come back from the outside, +immediately after the shooting and wanted me to let him back in, and I +told him--no. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some individual who had a couple of bags +and possibly some photographic equipment--he looked something like John +Carradine, do you remember that actor, John Carradine, with a wrinkled +face? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. This fellow had sort of an overcoat on, a tan overcoat +and he tried to get out and apparently you wouldn't let him out there +because he didn't have the proper identification, and he called upon a +TV man who was coming in and whom you knew apparently, to identify him +and the TV man said, "No, I can't identify you." + +Mr. VAUGHN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that incident? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that there was one person who came a +little later after the shooting who wanted to see Ruby? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--this was after--oh, I would say it was approximately +an hour or almost an hour after the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that man was? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know his name. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he look like? + +Mr. VAUGHN. He was a great big fellow. Now, I would say he was in the +middle twenties or late twenties. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you he wanted to see Ruby? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--who he actually walked up and asked for--he +walked up and I overheard the conversation, if I recall, with one of +the reserve officers--they had sent some reserve officers up before +that time to help with the traffic and the crowd and I overheard the +conversation--he said he was an employee of Jack Ruby's. When I heard +that--we was all standing around there--I went and asked him and he +asked me if lieutenant, let me see, I don't remember the lieutenant's +name--he asked me if there was some lieutenant there and I told him +I didn't know. He said, "Well, I am an employee of Jack Ruby's," and +he said, "I would like to talk to lieutenant--" I believe he said +Cunningham--I'm not real sure; I'm not positive now. Anyway, I asked +him then what the deal was and he said, "He just needed to talk to +him," and I felt possibly--by that time I had found out actually that +Jack Ruby had shot him, and I felt possibly maybe someone wanted to +talk to him, and a reserve relieved me on the entrance of the ramp and +I went and took this man to the information desk in the basement and I +called the homicide bureau and told Detective Boyd--I don't recall if +he is the one that answered the phone, but I told whoever it was what +the circumstances was, and Detective Boyd come down to the basement and +he started searching this man and I helped him search him for any kind +of a concealed weapon he might have and I turned him over to him and I +left. I don't know the man's name, but he said he was an employee of +Jack's. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he a heavy man, you say? + +Mr. VAUGHN. He was quite a big man. + +Mr. HUBERT. How old would he be? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties. + +Mr. HUBERT. What sort of complexion did he have and how was he dressed? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I believe he had on a sportcoat and a pair of slacks. + +Mr. HUBERT. What was his complexion? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he was fair. + +Mr. HUBERT. How tall was he? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, he was about 6 foot 3 or 4--he was a tall man, but I +believe he was heavier. + +Mr. HUBERT. Heavier than who? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Heavier than me. + +Mr. HUBERT. What would you say he weighed? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say he weighed around 250. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was he bald or balding? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--he had quite a bit of hair. + +Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I believe--the best I remember I believe it was black. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a limp or not? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't notice. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby was supposed to have +passed by you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I went immediately, after I took this man to the basement, +I seen another officer that was right there in the basement and I +asked him--they had already told him to go back to the squad, and so +I run on up to 511, which is the patrol office, and Lieutenant Pierce +was up there and I asked him if he wanted me to go ahead and stay on +that position on the ramp out there, or what he wanted me to do and he +said to go ahead and check back in service with the dispatcher and go +back to the squad, and that was about, I would say, somewhere around +1 o'clock, and I went on back out and I answered a call, I believe I +answered a couple of calls, and I answered one out in East Dallas and +while I was out of the car, getting out of the car going up to talk to +the people, they called--I heard a call for me to call 401, at Parkland +Hospital, which is the officer's room out there at Parkland, and so I +went ahead and got the information concerned with the call and I got +back to the car and went to the phone and I called. I called Parkland +Hospital and talked to Captain Talbert, and Captain Talbert asked me if +I had seen Jack Ruby that day and I said, "No." He asked me if I knew +him and I said, "Well, I know him to the point that probably if I had +met the man on the street in a crowd I wouldn't have recognized him, +but to the point that if I had some occasion to talk to him, I believe +I would," and he asked me if I had seen him and so I told him "No," and +I began to wondering about it and I went on and checked out of service +and went to the jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Captain Talbert did not tell you that there +was some idea that Ruby had gone by you and got into the basement in +that way? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he may have possibly stated something like that--I +don't recall, actually. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said a moment ago you got to thinking and +worrying about it. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, actually when he asked me if I had seen Ruby that +morning--I don't really recall if he said whether that is the way he +is supposed to have come in or anything else. Well, I went on, like +I said, and I checked out and I went to 511 where I think I seen +Lieutenant Pierce and he told me that that's how Ruby said he had come +into the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say it was somewhere around 2 or 2:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who Ruby had told that to? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know now who he told it to? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I understood, of course--I don't know definitely--I +understood he told Mr. Sorrels and Detective McMillon and several +more--I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Pat Dean about it? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Dean asked me one time if I knew what Ruby had said, I +recall, and this was sometime later, and I said I knew what he had +said--that that's how he had gotten in. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean tell you that Ruby had told him that? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did, Mr. Hubert, I can't recall exactly +what it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long after the event did you have this conversation +with Dean? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, it may have been possibly the same day--later that +afternoon, or maybe the next morning, I don't recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he approach you about it or did you approach him? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I actually don't recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did any of your superior officers question you about +whether Jack could have gotten by you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, they questioned me quite extensively about it. That +was on Sunday it happened, and I worked Monday, and I think it was--I +talked to Lieutenant Pierce some, I believe, and Tuesday I was off and +so Tuesday morning around 9 o'clock they called me at home and told +me to come in and write a report and so I got up and went down there +and wrote a report Tuesday, and I was off Wednesday. So Wednesday +night I was supposed to be off Thursday at that particular time--I +had three days off that week, and I think it was a holiday fell in +there somewhere--Thanksgiving is what it was--and Wednesday night they +called me at home, Lieutenant Pierce called me. I don't recall that it +was--whether it was 7 or 8 or 9 o'clock, and told me to come in and go +to work Thursday morning, that Chief Fisher wanted to talk to me, and I +came in and went ahead and went to work and I worked until, I believe, +8:30 or 9 and I got a call to report to 511 on a mark-out. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is a mark-out? + +Mr. VAUGHN. That means you are out of service. The dispatcher will show +you being somewhere else, and so when I went up there, Chief Fisher, +Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Pierce, I believe, was all sitting +in this little assembly room and they were talking, and I didn't say +anything else--I didn't say anything to them, and so within a few +minutes Chief Fisher asked me as I recall, now maybe I'm a little bit +wrong, as far as he asked me, but somebody asked me if I was ready +to go up to his office and I said "Yes," and we went on up to Chief +Fisher's office which is up on the third floor and I was accompanied +by Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert, so Chief Fisher questioned +me about it quite extensively, and I told him the exact story that I +had in my report and I have told you, and then he asked me--he said he +didn't doubt my integrity, but would I take a lie detector test and +I told him--yes, I would take a lie detector test and I went in and +Detective Bentley, who was operating the polygraph, and so I went in +and took the test. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time that Daniels had said that he had +seen somebody go by you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--I had contacted Daniels, of course--I didn't +actually clear my conversation when I talked to him about it--I had +contacted Daniels--I remember seeing him there, after personally +knowing Daniels--I knew him by sight, and he knew me by sight, and +so---- + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you contact Daniels? + +Mr. VAUGHN. It was on Monday morning. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you did so, I suppose, because you knew of the +possibility that was being talked about that Ruby had passed by you and +you thought that he was there and he might know? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I knew he was there--I remember seeing him. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I called him at home--he has a business down in +South Dallas, but it wasn't open--that was the day of the President's +funeral, and I called him at home and I believe his wife answered the +phone, and I asked her if I could speak to him, and so he come to the +phone and I told him who I was and I said, "I remember seeing you +down there yesterday, and I just want to ask you something." I said, +"Do you recall this car--this Lieutenant Pierce's car coming out of +the basement?" And he said, "Yes, sure." And, I says, "Well, did you +see anybody go down that basement while that car was coming out?" He +said, "No, definitely not; there was nobody." And, I told him, I said, +"That's the way Ruby said he got in," and I thanked him and left. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him whether he saw anybody come by you out +to--after the Pierce car had passed through? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't recall asking him that. + +Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you in any case that he had seen somebody? + +Mr. VAUGHN. He said there definitely--he said there was definitely +nobody went down that ramp but that car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever seen anybody go through? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he deny he had ever seen anybody go through? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; he said he definitely did not see anybody go +through. + +Mr. HUBERT. And was the conversation such that when he told you that, +you understood him to mean at any time whatsoever? + +Mr. VAUGHN. The only part I was asking him about was the point when +that car come out, Mr. Hubert. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his denial then that he saw anybody come +through, you think, because of the nature of the conversation, was +limited to whether anybody came through while the Pierce car was going +through? + +Mr. VAUGHN. That was the only part that my intention was to ask him +about--was that particular one situation that arose there, because the +rest of the time I was in the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell me this, after the conversation and the examination by +Fisher and the lie detector test, and so forth, was there any kind of +disciplinary action taken against you by the police department? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No; I had my efficiency cut. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's one thing I am interested in--tell us about that. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I got cut four points. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that a drastic cut? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, for me it was. Of course, in some cases it isn't. + +I mean, it's just all according to---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see, we don't know what the efficiency cut of +four points means in terms of severity, and that's what we would like +to know. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally for the last 3 or 4 years I have always +carried a 90 efficiency, which is a fairly high efficiency, and I got +cut four points on one certain thing, which I'm not familiar enough +on how they grade on that--to actually explain it to you, but I went +up to the civil service board when I got my efficiency and checked to +see who, of course, they keep a record of anybody that changes your +efficiency. My efficiency was changed by Chief Fisher. It was cut from +a 90 to an 86 and on one particular phase of how they grade you--on +dependability. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ascertain that that efficiency cut was done because +of the Ruby incident? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I didn't think--I thought possibly it was over the +Ruby incident and I went and talked to one of my supervisors and I +didn't feel that I should have had a cut on my efficiency under the +circumstances but the point to me--there has--they have never actually +proved that Jack came in that way. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to this officer, your superior officer about +the fact that you didn't think you should be cut, what did he say? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said he didn't know what I was cut for. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who was that, by the way, what is his name? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I believe that was Sergeant Jennings, if I'm not mistaken. + +Mr. HUBERT. You know you talked to Fisher about it? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was going to see Chief Fisher, as a matter of fact +I got the lieutenant to talk to Chief Fisher and he told Chief Fisher +that I did want to see him, and at that time Chief Fisher was involved +in some other kind of business he had--I don't know exactly what it +was, but he was busy. Then Lieutenant Pierce told me that I shouldn't +go see Fisher at this time. He said, "If you will wait, I will talk to +Fisher." + +Mr. HUBERT. By the way, this efficiency cut, is that on the basis of a +year or a month or what? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Six months. + +Mr. HUBERT. And this was made about January 1, I guess? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I think the efficiency ends in the month of +January. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did Rio Pierce ever report back to you as to whether he had +spoken to Fisher or not? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I talked to Lieutenant Pierce, I believe it was a +couple of weeks ago, and he said it was the first opportunity he had +had a chance to talk to Chief Fisher, and my understanding I got from +him was that Chief Fisher said it was for letting Tom Chabot in the +basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you got the impression from Pierce, that +the efficiency cut was not related to the Ruby incident, but rather to +the Chabot incident? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; to Chabot. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think we need a bit more information as to the severity +of this cut. Could you give us examples of what point cut they give for +what? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, you might get 1 or 2 points--I've seen them get cut +as high as 13 points. + +Mr. HUBERT. For what? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, just for different things. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, what would be--what would a four cut be the result of? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally a 4 point cut wouldn't be too severe, +because actually--well, I had a 90. I got cut 4 points--I got an 86, +which is still a fairly good efficiency, but to me, like I said, under +the circumstances and the things I felt it was severe because I didn't +quite understand it--that was the point on that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, were you in the police building on the 23d--the day +before? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I was there in and out. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby then? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the police building on the 22d of November? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby around there then? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to go to that assembly when Oswald was +brought down to see the press? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't know what time that was, but at that +particular time we were working days and we got off at 3 o'clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. I show you three statements which have been marked for +identification as follows: a copy of a letter dated November 26, +1963, addressed to J. E. Curry in two pages and I have marked it for +identification, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5334, Deposition +of Roy Vaughn," and I have signed my name on it and since it has a +second page, I have put my initials at the right-hand bottom corner +of the second page, and the second document, which is an interview of +you by FBI Agents Lester and Larson, dated December 1, 1963, and for +purposes of identification, I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., April +17, 1964, Exhibit 5335, Deposition of Roy Vaughn." I have signed my +name on that and I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner +on the second, third, the fourth and the fifth pages of that document, +and then there is another document, a report of an investigation of +you by Agents Hughes and Dallman, dated December 19, 1963, and I have +marked that for identification on the first page as follows, "Dallas, +Tex., April 17, 1964. Exhibit 5336, Deposition of Roy Vaughn," and I +have signed my name below that and I have marked the second, third and +fourth pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. + +I think you have had an opportunity to read these three exhibits? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any corrections, changes, or modifications that +you wish to make in the document, Exhibit 5334, the letter to Chief +Curry? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any modifications that you wish to make in the +document that has been identified as Exhibit 5335, the FBI interview on +December 1, 1963? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you take the document and tell me what changes or +what errors there are or modifications you wish to make? + +Mr. VAUGHN. This part---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are pointing to the second page, the second +paragraph which is numbered with a (1)--what do you have to say about +that? + +Mr. VAUGHN. The time was probably 10:15 and they've got 10:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only thing you find in that? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. What other things? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, in No. 6. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the paragraph that is numbered with (6) on page two? + +Mr. VAUGHN. It says, "Thomas Carbet, known to Vaughn to be a city +employed mechanic, was on business of the Dallas Police Department in a +squad car. In connection with Carbet, Vaughn invited him down"---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Actually, they have Carbet, is that wrong? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, it's Chabot, but I think that's what I told him, +but that's what I meant. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean Chabot, when you actually told him Carbet. The man +who is referred to in this paragraph you are talking about, Paragraph 6 +on page two, was really Chabot, is that right? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir [spelling]; C-h-a-b-o-t, and that's what I +have--what he advised me that he had been sent down for, checking the +parking situation. + +Mr. HUBERT. I don't quite get what you said is wrong with that +paragraph. + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that would be all right as far as the way it is +written--yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any comment about it? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, the comment was, as I recall, I did tell the two +FBI agents that were there that Chabot advised me that he had to check +the parking situation in the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that is omitted from that paragraph? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that is omitted from that paragraph. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to page three and it is the last long +paragraph on that page. + +Mr. VAUGHN. And it says that, "Approximately 11 a.m. a large crowd"--I +don't know how they would specify a large crowd--I said I suppose it +was probably half a dozen people standing outside the ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you wish to correct that? + +Mr. VAUGHN. I want to change the large--from large to that. + +Mr. HUBERT. You wish to change "large crowd at 11 a.m." to "about half +a dozen people"? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other corrections or modifications on that +document? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You have read it through and you believe it correctly +represents the content and substance of the interview? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now; I ask you whether you have any comments or changes or +corrections with reference to the FBI report which has been identified +as Exhibit 5336? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No; that's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's correct altogether? + +Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, would you be willing to state that if a person +were to read the three reports that we have identified as Exhibits +5334, 5335, and 5336, and if he were to read your deposition here, that +he would have the truth so far as you know? + +Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I would. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any other member of +the Commission staff? + +Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. VAUGHN. All right. Thank you. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE JAMES C. WATSON + +The testimony of Detective James C. Watson was taken at 10 a.m., on +March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office +Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, +Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of James C. Watson of the Dallas +Police Department. Mr. Watson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of +the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission +on the Assassination of President Kennedy. + +Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, +dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress 137 and +rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the +Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to +take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Watson. I state to you that the +general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate +and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President +Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. And in +particular, as to you, Mr. Watson, the nature of the inquiry today is +to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any +other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. +Watson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request +made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel +on the Staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by +the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the +taking of this deposition, and the rules also provide that a witness +may waive his 3-day written notice and I will ask you now if you are +willing to waive the notice? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please stand and raise your right hand and be +sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WATSON. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name? + +Mr. WATSON. James C. Watson. James Colvin Watson. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Mr. WATSON. 43. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir? + +Mr. WATSON. 2743 Clover Lane, Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. Clover Lane. What is your occupation and how long have you +been so occupied? + +Mr. WATSON. City detective. I have been with the police department 15 +years, going on 16 years. Been a detective about 8 years. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, were your particular assignment and duties on November +22, 23, and 24 the same as today? That is to say, same department? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is that? + +Mr. WATSON. Auto theft bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. Normally, of course, members of the auto theft bureau would +have nothing to do with homicide and so forth? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir; they just took men out of each bureau to help out +when they had the lunch out at The Trade Mart. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were simply assigned to assist in the transfer of +Oswald? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you were on duty that day? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have marked for purposes of identification what +appears to be a photostatic copy of a letter dated November 22, 1963, +addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, +consisting of two pages and for the purpose of identification I mark +the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, +Exhibit 5102, deposition of J. C. Watson," and I have signed my name. +That inscription is in the right-hand margin of the letter, and on each +page I have placed my initials at the bottom of the page. I think you +have read that statement? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that statement correct? Does it contain the truth? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Any modifications or deletions or additions that you wish +to make concerning that letter? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir; only difference in that one that apparently either +FBI or Mr. Scott wrote, I show that I was in Jack Ruby's place, and it +says, "several" there, and I have only seen him one time prior to the +time this happened, and I only saw him after the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think it would be proper for you--when we get to +discussing the FBI documents that you repeat that comment. + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I have also marked for the purposes of identification a +letter to Chief Curry dated November 30th, 1963, by C. C. Wallace and +P. G. McCaghren concerning an interview evidently with you. For the +purposes of identification I mark that with the following inscription, +"Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5103, deposition of J. C. +Watson," and I sign my name. That consists of one page. Have you read +that, sir? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. HUBERT. That's correct; isn't it? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we are both +talking about the same document I would like you to sign your name +below mine on both documents and initial the second page, as I have +done. + +Mr. WATSON. Initial those pages? + +Mr. HUBERT. No; sign your name below mine. Right there. That's right. + +Mr. WATSON. And initial the second page? + +Mr. HUBERT. Initial the second page just below my initial. While we +are on that second page I notice that is a photostatic copy and--the +signature, is that yours? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, would you sign your name below mine on the +document marked Exhibit 5103? Now, I show you a document purporting +to be a report by FBI Agent Scott of an interview of you which took +place, apparently, on November 25, 1963, and for the purposes of +identification, I have marked that document in the right-hand margin +with the following inscription, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. +Exhibit 5104. Deposition of J. C. Watson. Leon D. Hubert, Jr." I wonder +if you would sign below my name so as the record may show that we are +talking about the same document? + +Mr. WATSON. This is the one? + +Mr. HUBERT. You are going to have an opportunity to make the +correction. Just for the purpose of identification put your name on it. +Now, as to this document, which has now been signed by both of us and +identified as 5104, I believe you have some comments to make? + +Mr. WATSON. I believe--I thought it was, main letter, but it was my +second letter that states that I only saw Jack Ruby one time and the +FBI letter taken from it where they show that I had saw him on several +occasions. I only saw him one time. We went in there and stayed 10 or +15 minutes. I think we had a cup of coffee and sat and talked to him a +little bit, and that is the only occasion I have seen the man before I +saw him in the basement after the shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting did that---- + +Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3 to 4 years, in my estimate. I would say 2 to 4 +years. I couldn't be sure. It has been a long time. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you did see him, did you recognize him? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I believe I would have recognized him in his place +and I did recognize him after the shooting only because I saw two or +three people call his name. Then I did recognize him. + +Mr. HUBERT. If you will step over here and have a look at this mockup +here on the basement area, generally familiarize yourself with it, +there is the jail office, and that is the jail elevator, the corridor +entrance, the swinging door, the corridor outside the swinging door. +There is the flat part of the ramp. There are the two inclines back +there. This is the parking area and that is the ramp coming from the +parking area to the ramp between Main and Commerce. I have also here +a chart which I have marked for purposes of identification, "Dallas, +Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5105, deposition of J. C. Watson." And I +have put below it my name and I will ask you to sign your name so that +the record may show that we are talking about the same document. Now, +looking at the mockup first, I would like you to show me on the mockup +where you were standing at the time of the shooting, and if you had +changed positions from the time you first went in there indicate that +so that we can mark the several positions that you might have been in. + +Mr. WATSON. I took a position--you want it here, or over here? + +Mr. HUBERT. I want you to fix it. + +Mr. WATSON. Generally right here [indicating]. And I had more or less, +until we--just previous to the time they brought Oswald down, I did +take a point near this corner, out somewhere, a point about like this +[indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking--is this right? Right here? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle. + +Mr. WATSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the spot which you have indicated on the mockup? + +Mr. WATSON. That is the general place. + +Mr. HUBERT. The general place. + +Mr. WATSON. More or less milling around from there over to here, 5 or 6 +feet until right at the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. The position I have marked with the circle is the position +you were in at the time of the shooting, is that right? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map, "Position of J. C. Watson at +time of shooting," and I have encircled it and connected it with a line +into the circle which you have indicated was the position that you +were standing in at the moment of the shooting. As I understand your +testimony, you were more or less moving up and down along that position? + +Mr. WATSON. Well, that would have been previous, until the time they +were bringing him down. Right at the moment, the only difference would +be we were probably back--I would probably have been back, I would +say, level with the curb line, but at the moment they come out the +photographers--and there were some photographers right in this corner, +and one more officer, I think, to my left, and more or less--we moved +forward just probably a couple of feet, or three. We didn't move over 2 +or 3 feet. + +Mr. HUBERT. You want to make this comment about the position I have +marked as your position at the time of the shooting, you say that it is +correct, that prior to the shooting you were perhaps 2 or 3 feet-- + +Mr. WATSON. Two feet. + +Mr. HUBERT. Two feet back in the direction of Main Street? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes; only because as the photographers come forward, we +tend to come forward and kind of---- + +Mr. HUBERT. So, I am going to mark another circle then about 2 feet. +This is not going to be accurate, but the purpose of the circle is to +show your position prior to the shooting. + +Mr. WATSON. They bring anyone down, people all naturally seem to move +forward a little, just close in a little. + +Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map and encircled the following +language. "Position of J. C. Watson prior to the shooting." I'll +connect that with a circle, does that conform with your understanding +of the situation? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, what caused you to move forward in that way? + +Mr. WATSON. Just because the photographers and everyone seemed to just +move forward a little, just to keep in line. + +Mr. HUBERT. As Oswald was coming out? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that accounts for the fact that your position at the +moment of shooting was a little further towards Oswald than it would +have been had you not moved at all, and that difference is about 2 feet? + +Mr. WATSON. Well, I would say not necessarily toward him, just toward +the direction he was going. + +Mr. HUBERT. He was going; yes. All right, sir. Do you remember who was +on your left? What officer was on your left? + +Mr. WATSON. I believe Blackie Harrison was on my left, I believe. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was any officer on your right? + +Mr. WATSON. Not between me and the corner. I don't know whether there +was one past the corner of the building between there and the office or +not. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there was only the two of you, you and Blackie +Harrison? + +Mr. WATSON. Well, there had been one or two others over there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Right. I don't--only you and Harrison keeping back the +press from the Main Street ramp area? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Only you two? + +Mr. WATSON. Of course, the press was actually in the basement area, +and on the fence there on the guard rail and then at the time they had +already--so many of them had gotten over the rail, and were just inside +on the ramp area. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark an area just by making a rough oblong +figure in which I am writing in the middle "Area A," and I ask you if +it is that area that you are talking about that you were standing in +front of? + +Mr. WATSON. Just practically; yes. I was in front of, and to the right +of it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and how many people do you suppose there were in that +area? + +Mr. WATSON. In that "Area A"? + +Mr. HUBERT. Back of you and Harrison? + +Mr. WATSON. Not many. + +Mr. HUBERT. Not any at all? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said they surged forward? + +Mr. WATSON. They are over from this corner, over to about--some point +right out here [indicating], and they come over the fence and right in +this area right here [indicating]. That---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a line with the numbers "1," to "2," +encircled, is that the line that you are talking about that depress---- + +Mr. WATSON. From that point "1" over to just past this corner was the +only area that I know of any photographers being in. That is where they +were supposed to be. They were all lined on the rail, but at the moment +this starts, they crawl through and come forward a little. That is what +makes me come forward a little. + +Mr. HUBERT. I thought you came forward because of pressure from people +behind? + +Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nobody at all in here [indicating]. + +Mr. WATSON. I think one or two, but no officers behind me. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come forward? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see Ruby? + +Mr. WATSON. I saw him underneath four or five detectives immediately +at my feet in front of me after the shooting. Did not see--couldn't +have told whether it was white or colored until they had him in the +jail office. Four or five detectives completely smothering him. I was +standing there watching the crowd, looked down once or twice. Couldn't +tell who it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first become aware that there was a shooting? + +Mr. WATSON. What do you mean? What are you--How are you going to +pinpoint it---- + +Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the shot? + +Mr. WATSON. When I heard the shot; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see anybody lunge forward? + +Mr. WATSON. I glanced at Captain Fritz. I looked at Captain Fritz, just +looked at the expression on his face, and I looked at Oswald. Second +time I had seen him, just the expression. I noticed the officers behind +him back toward the jail office, just a--momentarily, and I heard the +shot up there. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your head was turned in the direction of +the jail office and Ruby apparently came up from your left? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. From the direction on your left? + +Mr. WATSON. But, your head was turned away from the area? + +Mr. WATSON. Glaring spotlight. We looked--straight ahead, to the right, +wouldn't look at the bright lights. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you don't know where he came from? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I assume where he come from but I don't know where +he come from. I know where he had to come from. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back to the statement that you made about "Area +A," there, which would be area in the basement ramp, but before the +incline begins? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes; just a flat place there. Starts back somewhere, like +you say, back here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. You're quite sure there was nobody behind you and Harrison? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I wouldn't have left anyone behind us. I mean, we +were in a position---- + +Mr. HUBERT. But I am talking about news media? + +Mr. WATSON. That is what I mean, I am facing this way and all the news +media was on my left. + +Mr. HUBERT. You had your back to the Main Street and---- + +Mr. WATSON. My back to that---- + +Mr. HUBERT. And nobody behind you at all? + +Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me except officers at the top of the ramp, +that I know of. + +Mr. HUBERT. And Blackie Harrison was to your left? How much space +between you and Harrison? + +Mr. WATSON. Well, sir; he and I were the only two in the ramp opening, +in that distance from the corner to here [indicating]. I believe we +were the only two and I believe---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Nobody behind you? + +Mr. WATSON. And I believe an officer or two in here [indicating]. I +don't remember moving around so much. I mean we didn't take stationary +positions designated. Now, we just took positions as we saw fit before +they came out. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark another circle here, sir. What I am marking is +the approximate position of Harrison. + +Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3- or 4-foot over. + +Mr. HUBERT. Right there [indicating]? + +Mr. WATSON. That's right. I would say he would have been a little +closer than that. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am writing on the map, "Position of Blackie Harrison at +time of shooting," and circling that and connecting it with a small +circle showing the approximate position of Blackie Harrison. That is +your best estimate of where he was? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. He was also facing in the direction of the Commerce +Street--with his back toward Main Street? + +Mr. WATSON. I would think so. I mean he could have turned a little, you +know. I talked to him a couple of times. He was standing parallel just +like I am. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever glance towards Main Street during the time you +were there? + +Mr. WATSON. I glanced toward--I'm sure, a couple of times. I remember +the car going out. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who was driving the car? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I don't know that. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Lieutenant Rio Pierce? + +Mr. WATSON. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was either in it or driving it, +yes. I saw him with the car. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did they have difficulty getting through the people? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes. At what point up there? + +Mr. HUBERT. At the point that you were standing? + +Mr. WATSON. I would think that there would probably have been two or +three reporters here [indicating], and I am sure there were at this +point. There was someone that was kind of in the way, and they had to +move them, I think. And possibly right on that edge, I think all of the +press were either asked or knew to get back at about that time. I think +they all got over the rail about that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been standing in this position before the +shooting? + +Mr. WATSON. We had been in there somewhere 20 or 25 minutes. I'd say it +must have been 35, 30 or 35 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you think that if a man had been coming down the +Main Street ramp just 30 seconds to a minute before the shooting you +would have heard his footsteps? + +Mr. WATSON. I don't think so. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why not? + +Mr. WATSON. Lots of noise going on there. Another thing, I am kind of +hard of hearing in my left ear. That is the reason, I think that I +can't hear some of the things that were said--I got it in the Navy. + +Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you didn't see anybody at all? + +Mr. WATSON. No; I just remember glancing---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish my question. Anybody coming down the Main +Street ramp? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you hear them? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you like to have a seat? Do you have anything else +you would like to add? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that everything that you know about this +matter is contained in the several reports and letters that have been +identified this morning by you? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And in your deposition? + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nothing else you know about? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nothing has been omitted, and there are no corrections you +want to make? + +Mr. WATSON. Nothing but the FBI where it says "several". There is "one". + +Mr. HUBERT. We have already accepted those. That has been noted, of +course. + +Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's +staff prior to this deposition this morning? + +Mr. WATSON. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. That includes me, too. + +Mr. WATSON. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Thank you so much, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF G. E. WORLEY + +The testimony of G. E. Worley was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain to you the procedure and then I will give +you an opportunity to ask questions and so forth. I want to introduce +myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff +of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the +Assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Commission was set up under the Executive Order +11130, which is an order issued by President Johnson on November 29, +1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. + +Pursuant to this resolution and Executive order, the Commission has +promulgated a set of rules, and in accordance with those rules I have +been authorized to take your sworn deposition, Mr. Worley. + +I want to explain a little bit to you about the general nature of +what we are doing here. Now, I think as you probably understand, +the Commission has been set up for the purpose of ascertaining and +evaluating and reporting back to President Johnson upon the facts and +all the facts that might relate to the assassination of President +Kennedy, and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +We are particularly interested in taking your deposition today, +Mr. Worley, because we want to talk to you about what you know in +connection with the events that may have led up to and followed the +death of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +However, that does not preclude any information that you may have +concerning any other people. I mean concerning the death of President +Kennedy. + +I want to explain this to you, also, that you have been asked to appear +here today by virtue of a general request which is made by our general +counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, and this request was made in the form of a +letter to Chief Curry. + +Now, actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are +entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition +taken. However, the rules also provide that you can waive this notice, +and I want to ask now whether you would like us to issue the notice or +whether it is acceptable to you to waive the notice? + +Mr. WORLEY. It is. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I also want to explain to you that you are entitled to +have counsel before this Commission at this deposition, and I see +that you don't appear here with counsel this evening, and I presume +it is because you don't desire one. But feel free to tell us, because +there are many people that have appeared here with counsel, and it is +perfectly acceptable to us. + +Mr. WORLEY. I don't think I need one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you if you have any particular questions +that you want to ask me? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I would have to say, after reading that report now, +that report from the FBI is not very good. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you this. Then I would like to administer the +oath to you so that I can start to take your testimony. I will first +hand you the report. I will mark it for identification and hand you the +report and ask you to make any corrections. Actually, that is going to +be about the first thing. I want to get your name and so forth. Would +you raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WORLEY. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, sir, would you state for the court reporter +what your full name is? + +Mr. WORLEY. Gano E. Worley. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Worley? + +Mr. WORLEY. February the 3d, 1926. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now? + +Mr. WORLEY. 835 N. Ewing, Apt. D. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas? + +Mr. WORLEY. In Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. WORLEY. I work for Lone Star Gas Co. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do for them? + +Mr. WORLEY. I am building operator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you worked for Lone Star Gas Co.? + +Mr. WORLEY. Eleven years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you also have some connection with the Dallas Police +Department? + +Mr. WORLEY. Dallas Police Reserve. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the police reserve? + +Mr. WORLEY. Four years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark for identification three documents +which I have in front of me. I am going to mark for identification +Exhibit No. 5047, and I have also written on there, "Dallas, Tex., Mr. +Worley, 3-26-64." This document which I have marked purports to be a +report of an interview that you had with FBI Agents Leo L. Robertson +and Paul S. Scott on December 3, 1963. Let me ask you if you have had +an opportunity to read this over before coming in here? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections or changes +that you think ought to be made in this? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I do. If you will read this one right here [pointing]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to a letter which I also have in my +hand? + +Mr. WORLEY. Right. To Chief Curry from me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular part, if you will tell me what you have in +mind? + +Incidentally, I have marked this exhibit which you are referring to, +a letter to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, purporting to be +prepared by you. + +Actually, this is a Xerox copy of what would appear to be another copy +of an actual letter which purports to bear your signature? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Worley, 3-26-64, +Exhibit 5048." Now, is there some correction or addition or change that +you would make in what has been marked Exhibit 5047, the FBI interview? + +Mr. WORLEY. Well, right here, if you will see it says---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to read it so we will get it in the record? + +Mr. WORLEY. All right. "Worley reported to Central Police Station at +9 a.m. on November the 24th, 1963, and he was assigned by the regular +police sergeant." That is wrong. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, who assigned you? + +Mr. WORLEY. Reserve police sergeant. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name? + +Mr. WORLEY. Croy. That has "Regular Police Sergeant Troy". + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to take my pen and correct it? Write in what +you think is necessary to correct it. + +Mr. WORLEY. [Makes correction.] I tell you, this is more of an accurate +description of what I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This Exhibit 5048? + +Mr. WORLEY. Right. Not this one, because---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The letter is more accurate than the FBI report? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; that tells exactly from the time I arrived at the +police station to the time I left, and every move that I made in +between. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, we are talking about Exhibit 5048, which is your +letter of November 26, 1963, to Chief Curry. Are there any corrections +or changes that you would make, or additions that you would make in +that statement, that you can think of right now? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it states that I met Jack Ruby sometime when working +with squad 105, 5 or 6 months ago. That was over a year ago instead of +5 or 6 months. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you tell us how it is that you now think it +was over a year ago? What is the basis for that change? + +Mr. WORLEY. Well, the officer that I worked with on that beat, I talked +to after that, and he hadn't worked that squad in over a year, and it +didn't seem like as long to me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that officer? + +Mr. WORLEY. Regular Officer J. R. Sales. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you check? Is there any police record made of +when you work a particular beat? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you checked those records to be--to determine when it +would have been that you last worked with that officer? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I haven't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him whether he had checked the records to +determine that? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; but the reason that I imagine he stated that is +because he is working another squad now and he knew that it had been +approximately over a year. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want you to feel free to make any changes that +you want in here, but I might suggest, and please understand that I +want you to if you don't agree with it, I don't want you to do it any +other way, but it seems to me from what you have said that an accurate +statement would include something to the effect that "I am not sure now +of when it was, because I talked with the officer and he said such and +such, but I have not checked my records, and I don't know if he has." + +Now, I would suggest that you make some change like that, if you are +agreeable. + +Mr. WORLEY. Well, that is agreeable with me, because I didn't check the +records to see exactly when the last time I worked on that district. + +But I did talk to the regular officer and he said that he hadn't worked +that district in over a year, so one way or the other. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take the time on that particular exhibit and +write down something that would reflect accurately what happened, on +there. You want me to write it for you? + +Mr. WORLEY. On that last sheet, the exhibit, the next one? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On Worley Exhibit No. 5049. + +Mr. WORLEY. This one corrects that, and it says it on there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. It is right down at the bottom. Now, I don't see it +on here. + +Mr. WORLEY. [Reading.] I would have swore. I read that over a little +while ago. I guess I didn't. I'm sorry, it is not in this one. I knew I +seen it in one of them. It is in the police report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It is in the FBI report. Well, these are true and accurate +copies, are they not? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I have the letters that you gave? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I am referring to Exhibits 5048 and 5049. +Now, is Exhibit 5047 the interview report, as it is corrected with +respect to Reserve Officer Croy, is that an accurate report of the +interview which you had with those people? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; but there was some of the things that they had in here +are not what I gave them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. They aren't? All right. What do they have written down +there that you didn't tell them? + +Mr. WORLEY. Well, just like it was signed. It says Regular Police +Sergeant Troy, and it should have been Reserve Police Sergeant Croy. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You have made and incorporated a correction on there, +haven't you? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, insofar as that portion now reads, that is the way the +interview actually went? + +Mr. WORLEY. Well, then again it says here [pointing] "some stop right +there * * * to the information desk in the basement to send the other +Reserve officers to the basement parking area"--I don't see that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say? + +Mr. WORLEY. I said to the basement detail room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Do you want to make a correction on there? + +Mr. WORLEY. [Correcting.] I believe it is all right now. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If Exhibit 5047 as you have corrected it then accurately +reflects what you told the FBI agents, would you initial and date the +corrections that you have made on there? + +Mr. WORLEY. You want me just to initial this down here? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put initials where you have made corrections and a date +afterwards. + +Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the same thing with that one up there. + +Mr. WORLEY. [Complies.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you also sign it down at the bottom and +date it with your regular signature? + +Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if these other copies that I have given you here, +Worley Exhibits Nos. 5048 and 5049, are true and accurate copies of +letters which you sent to Chief Curry, I would appreciate your also +signing and dating those. + +Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to direct your attention to Exhibit 5048, +which is a copy of a letter which you addressed to Chief Curry, and +which is dated November 26, 1963. Do you remember when it was that you +actually wrote this letter? + +Mr. WORLEY. It was that date. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. It was. Now how did you happen to write that letter? + +Mr. WORLEY. I was instructed by Reserve Coordinator Capt. J. M. +Solomon, regular police captain, to write the letter to Chief Curry. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where were you contacted? How were you contacted by +Captain Solomon? + +Mr. WORLEY. By telephone to my office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At your office? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you write that out in handwriting or did you have +it typed, or what? + +Mr. WORLEY. I wrote it out in handwriting and then had it typed. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who typed it? + +Mr. WORLEY. Mr. Worley's secretary. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In your office? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The original typed copy of that--do you recall whether +that was on a letterhead stationery or anything? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; just on plain paper. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Plain letter paper? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated here in Exhibit 5048 that you were assigned +to a position on the north side of the parking area to keep any cars +away from the first two parking spaces. And you said that you stood at +that post until about 10 or 15 minutes before Lee Harvey Oswald was +shot. + +Do you recall whether when you were moved from that post an armored car +had been moved or attempted to move into the ramp? + +Mr. WORLEY. It was backed in the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall anything that happened with respect to +that armored car? + +Mr. WORLEY. They couldn't get it down in the basement. It was just +backed up to it as far up in the door as they could get it, because it +wouldn't clear the top to come down in the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. During the time that you were down in the basement at +your spot, do you recall whether any cars moved in or moved out of the +parking area in the garage in the basement? + +Mr. WORLEY. From the time that I was posted out there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. WORLEY. Until when? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Until the time that you were removed from that post, did +any traffic go in and out of there? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it was police cars coming in and out all the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand at that post, to your best estimate? + +Mr. WORLEY. Well---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it is difficult. Do you think you were there +an hour? + +Mr. WORLEY. I was there over an hour. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, in the period that you were standing at +your post, do you recall any other reserve officers being stationed +also guarding particular spots in the basement? + +Mr. WORLEY. Well, there was quite a few reserve officers down in the +basement, and they searched all the cars in that basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Worley. I am going to pull out +here a chart, and I think we can talk a little easier about this chart. +This is a map or chart which has been prepared originally by the Dallas +Police Department on a much larger scale, and we have reduced the size +of it, but it is a chart of the basement area. + +Now, so you understand what is happening here, over here is Commerce +Street, and over here is Main Street, and there is the jail office. +Harwood would be out where your hand is, and Pearl Expressway would be +over here closer to me. + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you look over there at Commerce Street. You will +see that there is a heavy black line? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that heavy black line represents the basement wall. +The basement, according to this diagram, actually extends out under the +sidewalk, so at this point approximately where the sidewalk ends there +is a dotted line. Now, that represents where the wall is if you were +standing out on the sidewalk and were looking at the building. That is +where the wall goes up on the outside, so that actually as you look at +the diagram, you ignore the dotted line when you are in the basement, +because it extends all the way. + +And on the side near Main Street, we have the same kind of dotted line, +and have the black line. It means the same thing. + +Now, will you place on the chart an "X" on the spot that you were +stationed by Sergeant Croy? + +Excuse me; I want to correct the record. You have stated in your +letter of November 26 that Captain Arnett placed you at a point in the +basement. Can you show us where Captain Arnett placed you? + +Mr. WORLEY. Right here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would you put a circle around that "X"? + +Mr. WORLEY. [Complies.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were placed there, had the search of +the basement commenced? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you were placed there, were any other reserve +officers stationed at any other spots in the basement? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain there during the search? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, and I am only asking for your recollection, +and if you don't remember, state that, do you recall seeing anybody +come over to this area marked stairs up and do anything there? + +Mr. WORLEY. There was a telephone man tried to go out that stairway, +and I happened to know the telephone man. I don't know what his name +is, but he comes to our building frequently and works, is the reason I +recognized him. And he tried to get out this door, and he was stopped +by a regular officer and asked for his credentials. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And then was he allowed to go out that door? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that? + +Mr. WORLEY. About 10 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe anybody lock that door? I am asking for +your recollection? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Did you watch the search of the +basement? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch anybody search over in this area by the +elevators and the stairs? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see them do? Who did you see search over in +that area, if you recall? + +Mr. WORLEY. I don't recall any of the officers names. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his rank? + +Mr. WORLEY. I am not sure, but I think it was a sergeant, regular +officer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a regular sergeant? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him, if you recall? + +Mr. WORLEY. I don't believe so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, could you tell us what he did over in that area? + +Mr. WORLEY. Well, these elevator doors were closed. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. WORLEY. And he checked the door to see if it was locked, and it +was. He couldn't even go out. He couldn't open the door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have anybody with him at the time that he checked +that door? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a clear recollection of this? + +Mr. WORLEY. That is hard to say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You know sometimes we have a visual image, and sometimes +there is something that happened or for some reason that you know you +watched this. Is there anything---- + +Mr. WORLEY. Well, there was people that they brought in a bunch of +reserve officers in the basement from the detail room, and they came +out in here and they started back in here. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You are now sort of indicating back in the area toward +Main Street underneath the sidewalk? + +Mr. WORLEY. And he searched all these cars back in here to see that, I +guess, that there was nobody in there. They didn't tell me, but they +were searching back in here, and he just covered this back all the way +to the ramp here. Then they went right on around and covered the whole +parking area down in the basement back to me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, those people were sort of moving in a +group? + +Mr. WORLEY. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when this regular sergeant got over to the doorway, +was that group with him? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was he alone? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. I am almost positive that he was over here while they +were searching back over here, and he was by himself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, do you recall this particular officer going to +the service elevator? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if at any time there was somebody in that +service elevator? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any building personnel down in the +basement? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I do. Porters. And I don't recall how many. I saw some +porters and maids, and I am pretty sure that they were on this elevator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Service elevator? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it was standing there with the door open, and somebody +told them to go on up in the building, and close that elevator off. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when that was in relationship to the +search of the basement? + +Mr. WORLEY. It was before they searched the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was that did that? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you be able to state whether it was that +officer who talked to those maids and porters? Was it the same officer, +the same sergeant who also checked this door? + +Mr. WORLEY. There was none. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you would recognize either one of those officers +if you saw them again? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you, in your mind, convinced +about one sergeant than the other officer who checked the service +elevator? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So, are you able to explain for the record--I am +not trying to trip you up or anything--I am trying to probe your +recollection here--are you able to explain to us how it is that you +recall that they were different officers? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I am not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Different heights? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; there is nothing that would be--maybe I am thinking +that they were even the same person, or different people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And in other words, your answer is that you just don't +know if they were the same? + +Mr. WORLEY. I don't know. It could have been the same person or could +have been two different people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. Do you recall ever seeing anybody go over +into this area that is marked, where it says "To engineroom", and check +anything over in that area? + +Mr. WORLEY. I saw them search over that way but from where I was, I +couldn't tell whether they were back in here or not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After the search was over, do you recall if any other +officers were stationed down in the basement? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. There were some more reserve officers down in the +basement stationed there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark where the reserves were? Why don't you put +a "R" and a circle around it where there was a reserve. + +Mr. WORLEY. This is Lt. Ben McCoy, reserve officer. I stationed him +there myself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station him? Why don't you write "McCoy" +under his name then? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. Captain Arnett was over here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "A" in front of the circle. All right, now, any +other reserve officers that you recall? + +Mr. WORLEY. There was a reserve officer down here, and I don't know his +name. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "R" there and question mark under it. Were there +any regular officers stationed any place in the basement? + +Mr. WORLEY. There was a regular sergeant right here for quite awhile. I +couldn't say approximately how long. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he there a half hour before Oswald was shot? + +Mr. WORLEY. Oh, yes; I would say it was about maybe an hour or before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't mean for what length of time, but when did he +leave that spot? + +Mr. WORLEY. About an hour. I would say an hour before Oswald was shot. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any officers being stationed by the +elevators? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; there was a regular officer there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a circle there and write "regular" under +it where that man was? Now, do you recall any other regular officer? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left, that was sometime after the +armored car arrived? + +Mr. WORLEY. Right. The armored car was backed into this ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Commerce Street ramp. Do you recall whether or not any of +these men had been moved? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of seeing any of these +particular men in the basement at the time Lieutenant McCoy reassigned +you? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. Captain Arnett and Lieutenant McCoy and this officer +were in the basement when I left. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this officer up here? + +Mr. WORLEY. I couldn't say. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You went to the corner of Commerce and Central Expressway? + +Mr. WORLEY. The next block down. This is Central Expressway, and the +next block is north, northbound. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you walk out? + +Mr. WORLEY. Went up the south ramp by the armored car, sitting right +here. And I went on this side of it, which would be--I am trying to +place that. That would be east side of the armored car. Walked down the +sidewalk two blocks to the corner of Commerce and Central Expressway, +northbound. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize Jack Ruby if you saw him? + +Mr. WORLEY. Now? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize him then? + +Mr. WORLEY. Right now? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at the time you walked down that street, would you +have recognized him if you had seen him? + +Mr. WORLEY. I don't believe I would. The only time that I had ever +seen the man was when I was working with squad 105, and we made the +place that he owned down there. We just made a frequent call, or just +stopped in there to see if there was any trouble or anything, and then +went on. + +I met him one night, and I had seen him when I was in there. But those +places are kind of dimly lit and you don't see too much in them, and +really and truly, I didn't pay too much attention to meeting him anyway. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if any time after the armored car +arrived any automobile came in or out of the basement area after the +armored car arrived? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't believe so. I don't believe a car came down the +ramp after that armored car was backed in there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any cars drive out of the basement after the +armored car came down? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see any television cameras in any area of the +basement after the armored car arrived? + +Mr. WORLEY. There were television cameras in the basement before that +armored car arrived. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. As you walked up the Commerce Street ramp, +where did you see television cameras? + +Mr. WORLEY. When I was assigned to the basement, in these first two +stalls right here, they were putting these cameras up right behind. +There is a rail that runs right along there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark the spot where the TV cameras were? Why +don't you put a box? + +Mr. WORLEY. Two cameras. Two or three. There was so much confusion down +there that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you walked out to go up the Commerce Street ramp, do +you recall what television cameras you saw? + +Mr. WORLEY. Down in the basement? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. WORLEY. These two cameras that were here, that had been there all +the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any other TV cameras as you walked +out? Did you see any up here by the armored car? + +Mr. WORLEY. I don't recall of seeing any. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, did you see any down on the ramp or in the +garage area, or up on this ramp? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicate in here that, in your letter or statement +of November 30, that you saw from your position a man jump over the +railing, saw a man come down the north ramp, which would be the Main +Street ramp, and jump over the railing in the parking area, is that +right? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before you left the basement, would you +say? + +Mr. WORLEY. Hour or hour and a half. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any thought that that man was Jack Ruby? + +Mr. WORLEY. It wasn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time--I notice this is the second report, +letter--that was you got this letter of November 30? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I was interviewed by these two special service +officers, and they took this statement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to describe that man? How did that come +about? Did they ask you if you saw anybody jump over a railing, or +anything like that? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; they did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to the time that you prepared this letter of +November 30, had you talked with anybody about having seen this man +jump over the railing? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to think carefully. After the time, did you +hear anybody else say--prior to the time you drafted the letter, that +he saw a man jump over the railing? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any indication from Lieutenants Cornwall and +Revill as to how they came to inquire about that particular man? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or about a man jumping over the railing? + +Mr. WORLEY. All they did is ask me if I saw anybody come down that ramp +in particular. And I stated that I had seen that man come down and +jump over that rail there in the basement, and he was challenged by an +officer and he identified himself and the officer let him go on. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me understand this then, I think your answer to +me initially was that these two lieutenants asked you specifically if +you saw a man jump over the railing? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; asked me if I saw anybody come down the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. WORLEY. And then I told them about the incident of the man jumping +over the rail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you interviewed in a room with other officers when +Lieutenants Cornwall and Revill conducted this interview? Had a number +of reserve officers been assembled together and they talked with them? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I was told to report to that special service office at +a certain time, and there was one other officer in the room when I came +in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer? + +Mr. WORLEY. Lt. Ben McCoy. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he interviewed before you or after you? + +Mr. WORLEY. He was just fixing to leave. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him? + +Mr. WORLEY. Spoke to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you mention anything about this man to him? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About the man coming down the ramp? + +Mr. WORLEY. No. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you finished with the interview, do you remember who +the next man was behind you? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time in the morning, day or night, your +interview was with Revill? + +Mr. WORLEY. It was, oh, I believe, November 30 was on a Saturday that I +came up there. It was a Saturday, because I was off. I was at home, and +I came up there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the morning or afternoon? + +Mr. WORLEY. It was in the morning. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether they had interviewed reserve +officers, had set up appointments for reserve officers prior to +Saturday? + +Mr. WORLEY. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of each reserve officer over here? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I sure don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen that reserve officer since the time Oswald +was shot by Ruby? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I wouldn't recognize him if I saw him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't recognize him again when you saw him? I am +talking about the reserve officer about whom you have placed a question +mark on the chart. Do you have anything further that you want to tell +the Commission that you think might be of any use to them? + +Mr. WORLEY. I don't know of anything else that I could add to it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you this: Have you been interviewed by any +member of the Commission staff prior to this deposition? + +Mr. WORLEY. No; I haven't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I will make this one last general request. If anything +comes to your attention which you believe could be of assistance to the +Commission would you come forward with it, regardless of what your +personal feelings may be and so forth? + +Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I would. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I will appreciate that. + +Mr. WORLEY. I sure would. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. + +Mr. WORLEY. Glad I met you. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Nice to have met you. [Add this to Worley]: + +After Mr. Worley left, I realized that I neglected to get him to sign +the chart that we had been using to explain the various positions +in the basement, and the court reporter says that was because I was +hurried. And I notice in looking at this I also neglected even when I +corrected this afterward to write after Mr. Worley the date, so I will +write that in now. 3-26-64. And I wrote that in a space between the +word Mr. Worley and an exhibit number which I had already put on there, +Exhibit 5050. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF LT. WOODROW WIGGINS + +The testimony of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins was taken at 11 p.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins of the +Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Wiggins, my name is Leon Hubert, +Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on +the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the President's +Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of +Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission +in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution of +Congress, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from +you, Lieutenant Wiggins. I state to you now that the general nature +of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report +upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and +the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, in particular +to you, Lieutenant Wiggins, the nature of the inquiry tonight, is to +determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and the other +pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. You have +appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry +by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, to +wit, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who wrote him a letter asking you all be made +available. The rules of the Commission provide that you be entitled, +if you wish, to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this +deposition, but the rules also provide that if a witness cares to do +so, he may waive the 3-day written notice and, so, I now ask you if +you are willing to waive this 3-day written notice which otherwise you +would be entitled to? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I am willing to waive it. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Woodrow Wiggins. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Forty-six. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. 319 West Corning Street, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm a lieutenant on the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Eighteen years. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been an--a lieutenant? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Since October 1, 1956. + +Mr. HUBERT. What particular department do you serve with, sir? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I am with what is known as the service division. I +have under my control the dispatcher's office, the jail and the service +division and all the substations. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Lumpkin. + +Mr. HUBERT. Lumpkin, and over him would be---- + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Batchelor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course, Chief Curry? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, the line of command between you and Chief Curry is +Batchelor, Lumpkin, then Wiggins? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. What are your particular duties? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That depends, of course. Could I quote here and say +that on certain times I have different duties? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That I have a jail lieutenant that works for me, on +his days off, I watch the jail, or pass on prisoners and supervise the +jail as well as the other things, and when the jail lieutenant is there +then I am at liberty to inspect substations and do--the dispatcher's +offices and the jail, wherever I may be needed. + +Mr. HUBERT. On November 24, what was your situation? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was working the jail. My jail lieutenant was off +that day. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, working the jail entails what responsibilities and +duties? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm in charge of everything that goes on in the +jail, and among other duties, I pass on all prisoners that are put into +jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say "pass," on them, what do you mean? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I check to see their--the arrest is legal, and +that I think the charge is proper and that this person belongs in jail +before he is placed in jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you any duties or responsibilities with respect +to the transfer of prisoners, in your capacity as jail lieutenant? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Nothing more than as is normal to turn them over to +either the constable or deputy sheriff who transfers them to the county +jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. With reference to prisoners who are transferred from the +city jail to the county jail, is it customary for your department to +transfer them to the county jail, or is it customary for the State +deputies to come and get the prisoner? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. It is customary for the deputy sheriff or constable +to come and get a prisoner. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why an exception was made in the case of Oswald? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was never told. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, normally, it would have been Sheriff +Decker's duty to come and get Oswald, is that correct? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Normally, it would have been that way. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know, or did you ever hear it discussed, the reason +why the normal procedure was not followed? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I haven't. When I make that statement--I have +surmised that it was for better protection due to the fact that we have +more men, possibly, than Sheriff Decker did. That is strictly a surmise +of mine, of my own. + +Mr. HUBERT. What security had you provided for Oswald within the jail +itself? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, as a rule, we used a trustee to run our jail +elevator. I relieved the trustee from the jail elevator and placed a +patrolman on it. And put two officers in front of Oswald's cell at all +times. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 24th, or at all times since he was arrested? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, that was--the 24th, was my first day back +since that time. I had been off 2 days prior to that. + +Mr. HUBERT. And when you came on duty on the 24th, did you find that +security which you have described, already in existence? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I found that they had one officer in front of +the cell, but that they didn't--they still had a trustee running the +elevator. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you changed that. You took the trustee off and put an +extra man on the cell? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that Oswald was moved in the course of the 24th a +couple of times for interviews and so forth? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I know that I received a call from the fifth floor +that some detectives from the homicide bureau were up there to take +him out on what they call a "tempo," and this is to take him out for +interrogation. + +Mr. HUBERT. When he was taken out that way, was he accompanied by the +guard that you assigned? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; the guard could not take him to the +interrogation room. + +Mr. HUBERT. And "tempo," is a receipt for a prisoner which relieves +you, temporarily, of the duties you have with respect to him? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. + +Mr. HUBERT. And when he is brought back, your duties and +responsibilities for his custody attach to you again? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the search of the +basement for security? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I was in and out of the basement looking +it over, but I had no duties with the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you remain in the jail office performing +your functions as to incoming prisoners? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any of the plans for removal of Oswald, or +the transfer? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I knew of no plans. I had been informed by the +platoon that--I believe that it was understood that he would be +transferred after 10 o'clock in the morning. Now, that was---- + +Mr. HUBERT. No one gave you any orders or assigned any duties to you in +connection with the transfer? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did any sheriff come with a warrant for his release? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, under normal circumstances would you allow a prisoner +to be removed by the city police? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. He would be out of your custody on "tempo," is that right? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not necessarily. Let me say this: that the--that +the city police transfer prisoners on occasion over to the county jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. But, this is rare. It is--there are instances I can +name. For instance, they have filed on a prisoner and just for courtesy +to the prisoner, more or less, he wants to get to the county and they +just transfer him on down to the county themselves. + +Mr. HUBERT. How do you relieve yourselves of responsibility in those +circumstances? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Each prisoner who is transferred, the card is +signed, or the name of the officer that is making the transfer is +placed on his card. His property is turned over to the officer making +the transfer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was this done in this way? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; in this case, they were going to take the +property later. + +Mr. HUBERT. Naturally, he was in the custody of Captain Fritz at the +time of the transfer, isn't that right? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. He had been released from your custody by a "tempo" card to +Fritz? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. + +Mr. HUBERT. And Fritz could do what he wanted with him? Until he +relieved himself of the obligation of the "tempo" card by putting him +back in your custody? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. + +Mr. HUBERT. When were you first aware that Oswald was going to be moved +in the immediate future? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. When was I aware that he was en route, or---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Or, being moved to the county? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'd say possibly a minute before the shooting +occurred, they called me--someone called me from the--Captain Fritz' +office, the homicide bureau, and told me they were en route down the +elevator with Oswald, and I know that when I hung the phone up I looked +in and could tell by the elevator lights it was on the way down. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, in your statement you fix that moment at 11:20. How do +you fix that? Do you remember now how you fixed that? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I remember looking at our clock as they came by. I +don't know why, but I looked, just to be sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is the big electric clock, that is on the wall there? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Big electric clock on the wall there. + +Mr. HUBERT. The wall that is adjacent to the ramp? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, I don't know what you mean, "adjacent to it," +it is directly--on the wall directly in front of the hallway. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you come into the jail office, from the corridor, +that clock is on the wall to your right? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you all check it frequently? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; but maybe just occasionally might call the bank +to get the time, but---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you estimate just how accurate that clock is, +normally, and was on the day in question, the 24th? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I would say that it was possibly, I'm sure, not +over 2 to 3 minutes off either way. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there could be a 6 minutes difference? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I certainly don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I mean. In other words, you say it could +be 3 minutes off either way, then there could be a difference--no, I +see what you mean. Could be a difference of only 3 minutes. Have you +ever known it to be that much off? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge. I don't recall the time that +I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, being an electric clock the only thing +that will stop it from working is if the current went off, is that +right? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. And, now, I don't recall on any +particular details of ever having set that clock for--or anyone having +set it. I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you rely on that clock for timing other events in your +business of running the jail office? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Repeat that question. I am not sure I understand +what you mean. + +Mr. HUBERT. I take it that the time of various events, like the time of +a prisoner's release on bond, or the time that he is actually brought +in is a matter of record in some instances, with the police? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the time and the entry of that time on the +record is a part of your function? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you rely on that clock? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Most of the time. Sometimes I look at my watch, but +most of the time I look at the clock. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, 11:20, you have as the time you first noticed the +elevator coming down, and in a few seconds after that I guess they +passed by? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; the time at 11:20 that I am speaking of, I +remember I looked at the clock as they were coming out of the elevator. + +Mr. HUBERT. It was 11:20 just then? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of course, that is only a matter of seconds. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, they passed by you? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. As they came down, and as they came off the +elevator Captain Fritz was the first man off, and he said, "Are they +ready?" And I know that then I stepped out of the door, and I don't +recall whether I ever answered him or not, but I stepped out into the +corridor first. If I would have answered him I am sure I have--would +have told him that it was ready, but I don't recall whether I did or +didn't because I presumed they were ready, as everyone else did, and I +know I stepped out into the corridor, to the left as you went out the +door. I stepped to the left possibly 3 or 4 feet from the door, and +they passed me then. + +Mr. HUBERT. On your right? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; they passed me with Oswald at that time, +and had proceeded past me approximately 6 or 7 feet when the incident +happened. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shooting at all? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I heard the shot, and did see the gun, but at--but +not at the time of the shooting. I saw the gun after the officers had +grabbed it and had swarmed Jack Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. Describe Jack Ruby coming out of the group. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I saw a man coming out. I had no idea who it was, +but, I mean, it happened so quickly I caught it in the corner of my +eye, and I saw him out of the corner, saw him coming out of the crowd, +but I didn't know at that time who it was. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just about what position in the crowd did he come from? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. If you were familiar with that location I could +tell you exactly. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we have here a mockup of the area, and also +a corresponding chart that you can use, and for purposes now of +identifying it, I am going to mark this document as follows, "Dallas, +Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5076, deposition of Woodrow Wiggins." +And I am signing my name to it, and I ask you, for the purpose of +identification to sign beneath my name. Now, first of all, you--using +the mockup to get your own position, and then secondly, I ask you to +mark on this chart that we have identified your position by placing a +circle actually at the place where you were. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Where my position was? + +Mr. HUBERT. At the time the shot was fired. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right, sir. I had come out of this door and I +had stepped to along here, just about there [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle there. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Okay. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am writing--you have marked a little mark there +and I have put a circle around it and I am marking here, "Position of +Wiggins at the time of the shot." And circling that, is that correct? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That is prexactly (sic) correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now on that same map would you put a mark which I am also +going to circle later and identify as to the spot as best you can +recollect it where you first saw Ruby coming out. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. The spot where he was? + +Mr. HUBERT. Where he was. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. When I saw him? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; the spot where he was when you saw him. Now, look at +the mockup first and get your distances. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I have an idea or just about---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you just mark it there, the spot there were you first +saw Ruby? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Approximately. I could miss this a foot or 2, you +understand that? + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. Now, your cameras were over here +behind the--behind this with the lights, and where I saw him, he was +approximately, I'd say, about there [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking this--Lieutenant Wiggins has marked a +spot in the basement area. I am putting a circle around that spot, and +connecting it with a line, I am writing "Position of Ruby when seen by +Wiggins." Is that correct, sir? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. Now, this spot that I would be--that I would +say to be to where I first noticed that--the movement that attracted my +attention right there. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. And by the time that I had time to think and look, +it was over, but that is approximately the place. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. You had known Jack Ruby before this, I +understand? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I have known Jack Ruby for years. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize him? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. The first time that I recognized him, who it was +was after they brought him into the jail office. He was on the floor +still covered, or surrounded by the officers is when they picked him up +off the floor and stood him on his feet in the jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't recall him saying anything there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him afterwards? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I talked to you the--I talked to him +the next morning. I went up to see if he was all right. This was +approximately 6:45, the following morning, I went to see that he was +all right. I asked him how he was feeling, and he said, "As well as +could be expected." And I asked him if he was being treated all right. +And he said, "Yes; they are treating me fine." And I don't recall +saying anything else to him at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Had you--have you spoken to him since? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who called a doctor? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; when the shot was fired, as soon as I saw +that I could be of no help out there, they had Ruby. They had the man, +and they were surrounding--I immediately whirled, came in the office, +and when I found one of my officers there, Slack, I told him to call +the doctor, that Oswald had been shot. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you then notice what time it was? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I didn't. I don't recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Slack was where? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. He was standing right by the desk inside the jail +office. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, he put the call in? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; he called himself, then let me say this, +that after they brought Ruby in, then I turned and came back out the +door and after they had brought Ruby and Oswald, after they had gotten +him in I checked by telephone myself. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who did you speak to then? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I called one of them in the dispatcher's office, +but I don't remember who I checked with. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a document purporting to be a letter +dated November 27, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, +apparently signed by you, by marking on the right-hand margin these +words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, and Exhibit 5074. Deposition +of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name on the first page, and placing +my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. I am +marking a four-page document purporting to be a report of an interview +with you by special agents of the FBI, Chapoton and Smith, dated +December 2, 1963, by writing in the right margin on the first page of +that document the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit +5075, deposition of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name and I am placing +my initials on a second, third and fourth page of that document by +putting those initials in the lower right-hand corner. I ask you +to look at these two exhibits and tell me whether you have had an +opportunity to read them? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I have. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent what you know to be the truth? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; there is an error on the third page. + +Mr. HUBERT. Of which one? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of the document taken by the Federal Bureau of +Investigation. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state what you consider to be the error and give +us what you consider to be the truth? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. It starts on the eighth line, on the top of the +third page where it starts--the sentence starts, "They had proceeded +some 6 or 7 feet--" Excuse me. It is the one in front of that. The +latter part of the last sentence of the eighth line. Sentence reads, +"In their midst, were out past him. Wiggins," and it should read, "In +their midst, went out past him. Wiggins." And the next sentence---- + +Mr. HUBERT. I'm not sure I got that distinction. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. See this? See this then should be, "Went +out past him." Not, "were out past him." + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in the eighth line, the fourth word from +the end of the eighth line should be the word "went" instead of the +word "were," is that correct? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. Also, the next sentence, as it is +written here, "They proceeded some 6 or 7 feet from the jail office +door when he, Wiggins, saw a man lunge towards Oswald and he heard the +report of the gun." That sentence should read, "They had proceeded some +6 or 7 feet past Wiggins when Wiggins saw a man lunge towards Oswald +and he heard the report of a gun." + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as the exhibit itself now reads, or as the +sentence now reads it gives the impression that they had proceeded 6 or +7 feet from the jail door. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Whereas, your recollection is that it was 6 or 7 feet from +where you were standing, and were you--you were standing about 3 or 4 +feet from the jail door, so that to catch the sense properly it would +be that they had proceeded about 10 to 11 feet past the jail door. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. True. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, are there any other corrections or +modifications? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; rest of it is---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Are there errors in either of those two exhibits? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. The rest of it is as I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions that you would like to correct, or---- + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; nothing. + +Mr. HUBERT. Anything to be deleted? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Wiggins, have you been interviewed by any member +of the Commission staff, other than myself? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, with respect to myself, we had an interview last +night, did we not? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, are there any inconsistencies that you are aware of +between the matters discussed in our interview last night and your +deposition taken tonight? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, we didn't discuss this last night. You and I +didn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss it with Mr.---- + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. We--I didn't discuss any of this. The only thing +that I discussed with any one last night was with you, and that was +that the time and so forth that I would be here tonight. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. When did you get to read your statement? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. Last night. You gave your report to me last night. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, we had no other discussion? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; not on this. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, in fact, there was really no interview with--even with +me? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. When you speak of interview, I meant conversation. +I did have conversation with you last night, but not anything +pertaining to this. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nothing inconsistent that happened between the interview of +last night and what you said today? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Nor, I take it, is there anything of a material nature that +transpired in the interview of last night which has not been developed +tonight? + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't believe I quite understand what you mean. + +Mr. HUBERT. In view of the fact that you have already stated we had not +discussed it, I think it answers itself, but the point I am wanting +to make is there was nothing that was talked about last night that we +didn't talk about today, obviously that is so, because it wasn't talked +about last night. + +Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF DON RAY ARCHER + +The testimony of Don Ray Archer was taken at 8:20 p.m., on March 25, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Don Ray Archer, isn't that +correct? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Archer, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member +of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's +Commission under provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November +29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules +of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with +the Executive order and the joint resolution. I have been authorized +to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. I state to you now +that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, +evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of +President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In +particular as to you, Mr. Archer, the nature of the inquiry today is to +determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other +pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. + +Now, Mr. Archer, you appear today by virtue of a general request made +by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's +Commission to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, +you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this +deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that +a witness may waive this 3-day written notice if he so wishes. Now, do +you desire to waive that notice? + +Mr. ARCHER. I will waive. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you stand and raise your right hand. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the +whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. ARCHER. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name? + +Mr. ARCHER. Don Ray Archer. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your last name is Archer? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age, sir? + +Mr. ARCHER. I am 31. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside? + +Mr. ARCHER. 2035 San Francisco, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? + +Mr. ARCHER. I am police officer for the city of Dallas. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force of the city of +Dallas? + +Mr. ARCHER. Ten years, May 31. + +Mr. HUBERT. What particular duty or function do you have with the +police department? + +Mr. ARCHER. I am a detective assigned to auto theft bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior? + +Mr. ARCHER. My immediate superior would be Lieutenant Smart, and then +Capt. J. C. Nichols, who is the head of our bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same position and rank and duties and +occupation during the period of November 22 to 24, 1963? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, where were you stationed when you first came on duty +on November 24, 1963? + +Mr. ARCHER. On November 24, I reported for duty at 7 a.m., at the auto +theft bureau, which is my normal procedure when I report for work. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then did you go about performing your regular duties in the +auto theft bureau, or were you assigned extra and other duties? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, at the beginning of the morning I was performing my +regular duties and carrying out my assignments and making my general +investigations. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is in connection with routine auto thefts? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were you taken from that routine of duties? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. By whom, and at what time? + +Mr. ARCHER. As I recall, and as near as I can recall, and this is only +approximate, about 8:40 a.m., Lieutenant Smart came into our bureau +and advised us that Chief Stevenson had asked us to stand by to remain +in that bureau, to await further orders, which we did. And I continued +carrying on what work I could there in the office concerning my reports. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that the first order you got was to remain where you +were, not move out, and stand by? + +Mr. ARCHER. Not to leave, that's right, and to be there. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened after that? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, as near as I can remember we did stay in the--in the +bureau, or at least I did until, oh, I would say approximately 10:50 +a.m. And that is only an approximate time because I don't remember +looking and seeing the exact time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened at that time? + +Mr. ARCHER. At that time, Lieutenant Smart came in and, of course, we +had been aware that the subject, Oswald, would probably be transferred +that day. + +Mr. HUBERT. What made you aware of this? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, for one thing, just the press itself, and quite a +bit in the papers and all. We just had it in our minds that we would. +Actually, nobody told me specifically that he would be, but like I say, +it was in my mind. I just had that impression. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, at approximately 10:50, you received orders from whom, +you said? + +Mr. ARCHER. Lieutenant Smart. + +Mr. HUBERT. To do what? + +Mr. ARCHER. He told us to follow him and to go to the basement, which +we did. We left our office and walked to the elevators, got in the +elevator and then proceeded into the basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which elevator did you use? + +Mr. ARCHER. We used the interior elevator, of which there are two +moving from the basement to the fourth floor. It is generally inside +the building. + +Mr. HUBERT. The public elevator? Not the jail elevator? + +Mr. ARCHER. Oh, no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, no, sir; I was in civilian clothes, much as I am right +now. White shirt, tie and suit. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't wear uniforms? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I am a plainclothes officer. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you referred to "we" indicating that there were +several of you there. Who were the others? Do you remember? + +Mr. ARCHER. I couldn't name you all the officers, I know Detective +Clardy and Detective McMillon and Detective Dawson and Lieutenant Smart +and myself were on this. We rode down in the same elevator. That's all +I recall. There were other officers that eventually gathered in the +basement, riding down, that is the only ones that I recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did that party move as a party as you left the elevator? + +Mr. ARCHER. As a group. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean. Where did you move to from the +elevator? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, after we got onto the--into the basement--the +elevator door was open--now, we got off and walked to in front of the +jail office and I believe Lieutenant Smart told us to standby there +for further orders. Then he walked away, at that particular time and +I stayed standing against the south wall, the south wall which was +opposite the jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that outside the---- + +Mr. ARCHER. Outside the jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Outside the jail office doors? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, no, sir; it is before you leave the corridor, going +into the basement in front of the jail office, but not into the +basement entrance. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. ARCHER. It would be hard for me to say the exact time. In general +I'd say about 5, maybe 7 minutes that we stayed there. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, then where did you move to next? + +Mr. ARCHER. While standing there in front of the office, Captain Jones +came through with Chief Batchelor, passed in front of us, entered the +basement and, as I recall, they stood there and had some conversation. +I didn't hear the conversation. Couldn't tell you what it consisted +of, but after seeing this talking to Chief Batchelor, Captain Jones +came back and said, "I want this corridor kept clear," and at the same +time he did, the doors opened up. This was the corridor going into +the basement in front of the jail office, "I want the corridors kept +clear," and he didn't necessarily order me. He indicated--just said, "I +want the corridors kept clear," and that is when I took my station on +the north side of the jail door, right where the corridor goes into the +basement, and also where the jail door opens into the basement where +the automobiles are parked. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me about what time it was that you took that +station that you just described last? + +Mr. ARCHER. May I--my approximate time--oh, sir, I couldn't give you an +exact time from the time that would elapse, I would say approximately +11:05, or 11:08 a.m. Like I say, that is only an approximate---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's try to get at it another way. About how long before +the shooting did you take that post? + +Mr. ARCHER. I would say at least 15 minutes previous. Prior to the +shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave that position that you have just described in +any substantial way? I understand you weren't standing stock still, but +substantially, did you remain in that location until the shooting? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to have a look at this mockup here and at +the basement chart which is in conformity with it, and I am identifying +this particular basement chart that I am going to ask you to testify +about by marking on it, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5091. +Deposition of Don Ray Archer," is that right? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am signing my name on it, and for the purpose of +identification, I will ask you to put your name below mine. + +Mr. ARCHER. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you--use the mockup first to determine the exact spot +that you were standing in at what we'll call your final position. + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. In which you were approximately 15 minutes before the +shooting. I say, using this mockup, I want you to place yourself +wherever you were, and relate it to the map or chart, or draw a circle +in the spot at which you were. First of all, show to me on the mockup +where you were. + +Mr. ARCHER. I was at this position right here, sir. In other words, +this door--this door here [indicating] had it been open--in fact, it +was open. I was helping to hold it open. Right on the corner of this +particular--it is not exactly a pillar, but just to the corner of +that---- + +Mr. HUBERT. If I put a circle right here, would that be the spot you +are talking about? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes; it would. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am making a circle and drawing a line out, and I am +writing, "Position of Archer for about 15 minutes prior to the +shooting." I am drawing this circle around that legend, and connecting +the circle which marks your position with the circle which describes +it, is that correct? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes; it is as near correct as I can recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. When the party came out, then the doors swung in to you, is +that right? + +Mr. ARCHER. Sir, as I remember it, when the party came out, now, as +near as I can recall, the doors [were] open. + +Mr. HUBERT. Opened which way? + +Mr. ARCHER. I just couldn't say. I have thought about that, but I don't +remember exactly. I'd say--as I was showing you here, I was standing +enough to this side to hold this door. + +Mr. HUBERT. To hold the---- + +Mr. ARCHER. This is the door [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. The corridor door? + +Mr. ARCHER. The corridor door, yes, sir; not the jail office door. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether the jail office door sort of +cornered you? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it couldn't corner me. It didn't interfere with me +at all. + +Mr. HUBERT. It is a swinging door, isn't it? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; it is. I am sure--I feel like in my own mind, it +was open. + +Mr. HUBERT. Swung open into the jail area? + +Mr. ARCHER. Swung open into the jail area. In my own mind, as I say, I +can't be certain about that point, because I just don't recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suggest to you that if you had--if it did open the +other way, it would have kind of boxed you in. + +Mr. ARCHER. I don't believe it did. That is the reason I have it in my +mind that it was opened the other way, because I recall no interference +from the door whatsoever. + +Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember being boxed in? + +Mr. ARCHER. I know I wasn't boxed in, no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened then when the party came down that +was transferring Oswald? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they brought Oswald down to the basement, now, the +first officer that I saw was Captain Fritz. As he started out the jail +office door he stopped and paused, and whether he said something to the +detectives with Oswald, I don't know. He didn't--motioned to them like +for them to wait a second, like I say, I didn't hear any command or +any orders given at that time, and then he proceeded to walk out, and +I would say probably at that particular point, took about three paces. +Then the detectives started out with Oswald. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, as the party moved, they moved away from you, I guess? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes; they did. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, they were in your line of vision? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; they were. + +Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you saw? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they passed in front of me, I could see--I could +see the detectives on each side of Oswald leading him towards the ramp. +The automobile ramp in the basement. Then as they neared the front of +the ramp--now, keeping in mind that in this position that I was in, +I did have some bright lights shining into my eyes, and that because +of these lights it would be hard for me to recognize someone on the +opposite side of the ramp. I mean, you know, without focusing my vision +directly on them. In other words, I couldn't take a scanning view and +possibly recognize just anyone, but as they approached the ramp, just +as they reached the edge of the ramp, I caught a figure of a man. The +movement first turned my attention to that point. I had been watching +Oswald and the detectives, and more to my right, and then I caught the +movement of a man, and my first thought was, as I started moving--well, +my first thought was that somebody jumped out of the crowd, maybe +to take a sock at him. Someone got emotionally upset and jumped out +to take a sock at him and I started to move forward, and as I moved +forward I saw the man reach Oswald, raise up, and then the shot was +fired. + +Mr. HUBERT. So you were in motion before the shot was fired? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, I would say just it would be instantaneous. I mean, +when I saw the movement I feel like I started moving, too. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize Ruby? + +Mr. ARCHER. I didn't recognize Ruby at all. I didn't know the man +personally, and I didn't know his name (nor I didn't even know who +admitted the shooting) until following the shooting when they asked him +his name and he said, "You all know me, I'm Jack Ruby." + +Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he was overpowered? + +Mr. ARCHER. That was as we took him back to the jail office after the +shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any observation or remark or say anything at +all before he was moved into the jail office? + +Mr. ARCHER. Sir, an instant before I heard the shot, I heard a phrase. +Now, I couldn't say what the phrase was and then I definitely---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know what the phrase was? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I don't know. I couldn't say what the phrase was, +because I had not heard, but I did hear the words, "Son-of-a-bitch," +and then the shot was fired. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who said it? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I know Ruby said it. I'm positive of that. I was +looking right at the man. + +Mr. HUBERT. You mean that you didn't hear anything except those four +words, "Son-of-a-bitch"? + +Mr. ARCHER. That is the only words I could make out. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you knew it was coming from him? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I thought that it did. + +Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from him? + +Mr. ARCHER. I would say, at that particular time, I was five, maybe six +paces. + +Mr. HUBERT. Where did he move from? + +Mr. ARCHER. Sir, when I saw him, he was approaching the detectives. +It was my first glimpse of it. I, personally, could not say where he +moved from. He came out of the crowd, as far as I could tell, because +that was all that was around was the press and officers, lining the +corridors so far as I knew, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Could he have come up from the area where the television +cameras were located? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; he could have. When he came into my vision, he +was already in front of the detectives, and I did not see exactly where +he did come from. + +Mr. HUBERT. What detective was he in front of? + +Mr. ARCHER. Detective--the ones that had Oswald, which would be Mr. +Leavelle and Mr. Graves. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what detectives Ruby passed by in his motion +from his prior position to when you saw him? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I--my own personal knowledge, now, well, if you +are speaking about that time, I did not; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, I think, is that you found out +subsequently? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes; subsequently. + +Mr. HUBERT. But at the moment, you didn't recognize them? + +Mr. ARCHER. At the time if someone had asked me who had been standing +there, I couldn't have said, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, he was brought into the jail office +immediately? + +Mr. ARCHER. After the shot was fired, sir, I tried to move forward, but +I was cut off by the other officers. The--I started forward, well, the +struggle went to my left as I moved forward, individually worked itself +way around in back of me, and just as they reached the jail office, +well, I took his left arm and assisted them in walking--I went into the +jail office with him. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened next? + +Mr. ARCHER. After we took him into the jail office? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. ARCHER. After we got the subject into the jail office I still +didn't know who he was. Someone asked where the gun was. Now, I had +not, up to this point, seen the gun other than just an instant after +the shot was fired when I caught sight of this man again, which was +Ruby. I didn't see the gun. I was interested in knowing where the gun +was, or if he still had the gun and we took him on into the jail office +and I assisted in keeping his left arm behind him and someone got his +right. I couldn't say who it was that had his other arm. Laid him down +on the floor, his head and face were away from me at that particular +time. But that is when I said, "Who is he?" + +I made that statement, because I didn't know who it was and Ruby then +turned his face in my direction. He didn't look directly at me. His +face had been turned in this manner [indicating]. He then turned in +this manner [indicating], and he--that is when he said, "You all know +me, I'm Jack Ruby." + +Mr. HUBERT. What happened next in that jail office area? + +Mr. ARCHER. When we had the subject on the floor, I was reaching for +my handcuffs. I reached back in this manner [indicating] to unhook my +handcuffs off my belt, and Detective McMillon was astraddle and over +him, over Ruby, and I believe I said, "Mac, do you need my cuffs?" + +About that time, "No; I have got it now." And said he placed the cuffs +on Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next? + +Mr. ARCHER. After he got the cuffs on him, there were still--oh, there +was still lots of confusion going on, and several statements were +being made or being asked. I don't know. They seemed--some of the +statements seemed to come from behind me. I don't know whether it was +reporters looking into the jail office or just who it was, but there +were some statements made inquiring--several people were asking, "Who +is he?" Did he hit him? Did he shoot him? Or things of that nature, as +I recall. And he said at that particular point, "I hope I killed the +son-of-a-bitch." + +I think Captain King was there just a very short time. We began to +get--McMillon and I and Detective Clardy, I know the three of us and +perhaps one or two other officers, I couldn't say for sure, assisted +Ruby to his feet, and we started toward the jail elevator with him, +along with Captain King. I believe Captain King said at that point in +there somewhere, "Let's get him onto the elevator and take him to the +fifth floor jail." So, we then went to the elevator. They put him on +the elevator, and I believe that I was either last, or near the last +getting on the elevator, and then we proceeded on to the fifth floor +jail. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when you got up there? + +Mr. ARCHER. After we got to the fifth floor jail we took him back to +the investigative section of the jail, which is just an open section, +not a cell. Just an open section of the jail, and we began to search +him for any weapons. We were, at least I was mainly concerned as +to whether he had any other weapons on him at all. We stripped him +and stripped him of his clothing, and I wasn't interested too much +in personal property, but mainly searching for weapons or bombs, or +anything else he might have concealed on him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any personal property on him? + +Mr. ARCHER. Did I find any personal property on him? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir, I searched him. I did remove some personal +property. I recall a large roll of money and perhaps some change. I'm +not sure about that. The main thing I remember was the large roll of +money. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the property you took from his person? + +Mr. ARCHER. We had been there--before I started removing any personal +property; well, I searched him by feeling of him, you know, feeling for +any weapons first, and then one of the other jailers, uniformed jail +officers, Haake, came up and what personal property I took out of his +pockets, I handed right over to him. I didn't bother to itemize it or +anything else, because that is their job, not ours, and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. You didn't make an inventory of his property? + +Mr. ARCHER. I didn't; no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You just handed it over to another man? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby then? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did he say? + +Mr. ARCHER. During--after we--as I began searching him, making the +general search of him, as we were standing there I said--I had seen +Oswald on the floor in the jail office after he had been brought in +there and I looked at him, and to me he looked like he was dead. Of +course, I couldn't say he was dead, but I am saying that to me he +looked like he was dead, and I said to Ruby at that time, "Jack I think +you killed him," and he just looked at me right straight in the eye and +said, "Well, I intended to shoot him three times." + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't know him. I wouldn't recognize the man +if I saw him on the street. I do--I knew of him. I had heard the name +before. I did have--I did recollect that he had been handled by the +department, but I never arrested him, and I had never seen him. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, you knew the name was Jack Ruby, though? + +Mr. ARCHER. Sir? + +Mr. HUBERT. You knew the name was Jack Ruby, though? + +Mr. ARCHER. I didn't know the name was Jack Ruby other than he told me +his name was Jack Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am handing two documents, which I'm identifying as +follows, to wit: One document apparently is a copy of a statement dated +November 27, 1964, addressed to Chief Curry, apparently signed by you, +which I am marking, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5092, +deposition of D. R. Archer," I have signed it on the first page, and +I have initialed the second page by marking my initials on the lower +right-hand corner, and another document which I have marked in the +right margin, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5093, deposition +of D. R. Archer," and I have signed my name below that, and put my +initials on the second page, bottom right-hand corner. And I would like +you to examine those exhibits, please, and then after you have done so, +I wish to ask you some questions about them. + +Mr. ARCHER. Now, then---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you read both of them? + +Mr. ARCHER. I have read this one [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well---- + +Mr. ARCHER. You want me to read---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes; read both of them. + +Mr. ARCHER. All right. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have read the exhibits we have marked 5092 and +5093. Now, I will ask you if those statements contain the truth as you +knew it? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; with one correction here in this statement that +is headed by "Federal Bureau of Investigation". + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you will find that that is Exhibit 5093. + +Mr. ARCHER. 5093, yes, sir. It is not correct when it states that I +remained with Ruby until approximately 3 p.m. I believe that that was +3:30 p.m., as stated in my report. As I recall, when I was interviewed +by the gentleman, I did say 3:30. Now, like I say, it could be my +error, could be theirs, but---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Were there any omissions from, of fact from those +statements? + +Mr. ARCHER. Any what, sir? + +Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions of fact. + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, I didn't go into every detail. There are several +statements that I didn't include in this report, and of some of the +conversation that took place in the jail and during the time that I was +with Ruby, and then some of the statements that were made downstairs. +By this, I mean when this investigation was made. I didn't have in +mind of any testimony being involved, that it was--more or less an +investigation as to how Ruby got into the basement, and what the +security breakdown was. That my--that was my impression. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think you are relating to the fact that both of those +statements omit any statement as to what Ruby told you concerning his +intent to kill? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish to afford you an opportunity to state why that +fact, or those facts were omitted from the statements? + +Mr. ARCHER. Well, at the time, I just didn't consider them pertinent to +the investigation that was in progress, and I just didn't recall them +as important information at the time. And as I explained, it was in my +mind that it was an inquiry, more or less, as to where I was and what I +was doing, and of an inquiry as to whether there was any negligent on +my part in regards to this security breakdown. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the inclusion in these two statements of +his phrase "Son-of-a-bitch," was more important than his statement of +his intent? + +Mr. ARCHER. Sir, at the time, it is like I say, whenever I gave the +statements I had in mind as to what I saw at the time of the shooting, +and that did take place at the time of the shooting, and I didn't go +into great detail as to what took place after we took him into custody, +took him upstairs and searched him and all. In other words, I had +in mind that if anyone wanted to know about it, well, they would be +afforded a chance for me to relate that. + +Mr. HUBERT. When, in fact, did they find out that you had this +knowledge? + +Mr. ARCHER. I don't recall the exact time or day. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you file another report than those we have here? + +Mr. ARCHER. I have another report that is the part mental interview +which was taken, as I recall, from the date, on November 30th, which +was a continuing inquiry as to how Ruby got into the basement of the +city hall. I believe that it was taken by Lieutenant McCaghren and +Lieutenant C. C. Wallace. + +Mr. HUBERT. In that statement you did not mention what Ruby told you +concerning his intent either, did you? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I did not at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first convey that information to anyone at all? + +Mr. ARCHER. To Mr. Alexander with the district attorney's office, when +he made a court inquiry at the city hall. + +Mr. HUBERT. When was that? + +Mr. ARCHER. I don't remember the date, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, how long after the shooting? + +Mr. ARCHER. I just couldn't say. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, was it before Christmas, for example, or after? + +Mr. ARCHER. I don't remember. I do know that Alexander---- + +Mr. HUBERT. How long before the trial began did you convey this +information to anyone? + +Mr. ARCHER. I would say approximately 3 weeks. Now, that is just a +guess, because I just don't recall the time there. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us the circumstances under which this inquiry +was made of you concerning the intent to kill as expressed by him? + +Mr. ARCHER. Mr. Alexander made the inquiry in talking to us together, +and also individually, as to what we heard that might be pertinent, +what might not be pertinent at that time, and I went over and related +all that I could recall. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first time you mentioned to anyone at all +what you had heard Ruby say regarding his intent? + +Mr. ARCHER. As far as I recall; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that was about 3 weeks before the beginning of the +trial. + +Mr. ARCHER. I would say very--approximately. That could vary, because +I don't remember the date. I wish I could, but I didn't make any +particular note of it. Like I say, at the time, I just didn't take note +of it. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you mean to say to me that you did not regard +those two statements made to you by Ruby as being important in a trial +of this man for first-degree murder? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't say that I didn't regard them as +important. I just say at the time that these statements were made it +was in my mind that it was not necessarily a gathering of facts to try +the man. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I gather from your testimony that you didn't convey +this information to anybody at all until you were asked to do so in an +interview with Mr. Alexander, which, from your testimony, I judge to be +approximately the middle of January or afterwards, which is to say, 2 +months after the event. + +Now, I ask you if you did not think that that information was extremely +valuable information in a pending prosecution for first-degree murder? + +Mr. ARCHER. I didn't, at the time, give it a thought in the way of +prosecution, because in my own mind I didn't feel that a lot of the +statements would be admissible. I don't know what would be admissible +and what wouldn't. + +Mr. HUBERT. It never occurred to you that it was your duty to tell your +superior officer, or somebody that you had heard that this man said, "I +meant to kill him"? + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it didn't. Had they inquired about it, I certainly +would have told them. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, have you anything else to say, sir. + +Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; not unless there is something more you would like +to ask me. If I can relate, or tell you anything, I would be happy to. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now you have not been interviewed by any member of the +Commission or by me, before, have you? That is to say, a member of the +President's Commission, on the assassination? + +Mr. ARCHER. Not the President's Commission. I have been interviewed by +the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which you know about. + +Mr. HUBERT. But no interview by me or any other member of the +Commission staff? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. This deposition is the first time you have said anything to +any member of the Commission staff? + +Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; so far as I know. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. That's all. Thank you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF BARNARD S. CLARDY + +The testimony of Barnard S. Clardy was taken at 2:45 p.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective Barnard (spelling) +B-a-r-n-a-r-d? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Middle initial S. Clardy. Auto Theft Bureau, Criminal +Investigation Division, Police Department of Dallas. Mr. Clardy, my +name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the +general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination +of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order +No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress +Number 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in +conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have +been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Detective Clardy. + +I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry +is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the +assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee +Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Detective Clardy, the nature +of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death +of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the +general inquiry. Now, Detective Clardy, you appear here today by virtue +of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the +President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin to Chief Curry. Under the +rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written +notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also +provide that a witness may waive the notice. Now, do you waive this +3-day notice? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Very well. Now, will you stand and be sworn, please. Raise +your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CLARDY. I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please? + +Mr. CLARDY. Barnard S. Clardy. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your age? + +Mr. CLARDY. Thirty-seven. + +Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? + +Mr. CLARDY. 936 Ferncliff Trail. + +Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation? + +Mr. CLARDY. Police Detective. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied, sir? + +Mr. CLARDY. Since November 5, 1950. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the criminal +investigation bureau? + +Mr. CLARDY. Since December the 5th, 1955. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, is--who is head of the auto theft bureau? + +Mr. CLARDY. Captain Nichols. + +Mr. HUBERT. Captain Nichols, and the entire criminal investigation +division, of which the auto theft division is a part is headed by Chief +Stevenson, is that right, sir? + +Mr. CLARDY. Chief Stevenson; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, Detective Clardy. I'm going to mark three documents +as I will indicate, after which I wish to ask you some questions +concerning those documents. At first, a document consisting of three +pages being, apparently, a copy of a letter dated November 27, 1963, +addressed to Chief Curry, the original of which was apparently signed +by you, B. S. Clardy? I am marking the first page of that document +"Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5061. Deposition of +Detective B. S. Clardy." + +Under which I am signing my name, and I am placing my initials in the +right-hand lower corner of the second and third pages of that document. +The second document purports to be a report from the FBI concerning an +interview with you on November 25, 1963. I am marking that document in +the lower right-hand corner as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. +Exhibit No. 5062, Deposition of B. S. Clardy," and I am signing my name +and putting my initials on the second page in the lower right-hand +corner. + +The third document consists of three pages, and purports to be a report +of an interview of you on December 3d, by Agents Quigley and Dallman of +the FBI. On the first page I am marking as follows, to wit: "Dallas, +Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5063. Deposition of B. S. Clardy." +Signing my name on the first page, placing my initials on the second +and third pages in the lower right-hand corner on each of those pages. + +Now, Detective Clardy, I hand you these three documents and--identified +as 5061 and 5062 and 5063, and ask you if you have had an opportunity +to read those today? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent substantially the truth of +all you know concerning the matter under inquiry this morning--this +afternoon? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; they do. The only thing that I find that I erred +on was in the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, now---- + +Mr. CLARDY. On my statement, that the approximate time where I went +down was approximately 11 instead of 10, and the approximate time that +we brought Mr. Jack Ruby from the jail to Captain Fritz' office was +approximately 3:30, instead of 2:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Those corrections you wish to make on the document marked +5061? + +Mr. CLARDY. 5061. + +Mr. HUBERT. As I understood it, there were two time corrections that +you think should be made, is that correct? + +Mr. CLARDY. On that document alone, sir. And this was approximately +closer to 11 a.m., on this other document. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. You wish to make a correction as to the time +with reference to Clardy Exhibit No. 5061, to wit, your letter to Chief +Curry on November 27th and---- + +Mr. CLARDY. And on that also. It was approximately 3:30 instead of 2:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Two corrections here. + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; two corrections on that. + +Mr. HUBERT. And in the second paragraph of that letter where you name +the time as 10 a.m.---- + +Mr. CLARDY. Approximately; yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. As the time at which Lieutenant Smart advised you and other +officers to report to the jail office. You now say the time should have +been what? + +Mr. CLARDY. Should have been 11 a.m. + +Mr. HUBERT. Should have been 11 a.m. Do you have another time +correction to make? + +Mr. CLARDY. Time on the last paragraph there was the time that we +brought the prisoner out, Mr. Ruby, to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. HUBERT. It reads now as "2:30 p.m."? + +Mr. CLARDY. It reads 2:30. It should have been approximately 3:30 p.m. + +Mr. HUBERT. Should have been 3:30 instead of 2:30. Both of those +corrections being as to Clardy Exhibit No. 5061. Did I understand that +you might have a correction as to Clardy Exhibit No. 5062? + +Mr. CLARDY. Clardy Exhibit No. 5062. This. The second paragraph should +have been approximately 11 a.m., instead of 10 a.m. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, your best recollection is that the time that +Lieutenant Smart advised you and other officers to go to the city jail +office was 11 o'clock rather than 10 o'clock? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything you can tell us that would explain that +error in time that you made? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. HUBERT. You see, the point I am making is, that on November 27, you +stated 10 a.m., apparently in your letter. Then--well, prior to that, +on November 25, when you were interviewed by the FBI you told them at +10 o'clock, and do you think that it is simply a mistake in time, or---- + +Mr. CLARDY. Well, it is a mistake in time on me--on the--on my first +report I was under the impression that I told them 11 a.m., which--now, +whether I did or not, I don't know, sir, on my first interview. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let me call your attention to the fact that on Document +5063, which is the interview on December 3, you also mentioned 10 a.m., +apparently. All I am trying to do, Detective Clardy, is to find out +why it is that you think it is 11 o'clock now, whereas before on three +separate occasions you thought it was 10. + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I thought I told the agent that I talked to that it +was possibly closer to 11 than it was to 10, when I talked to him. To +be--just preactly [sic] what time I went down there, I am just judging. + +Mr. HUBERT. In any case, your present recollection is definitely---- + +Mr. CLARDY. That it would have been closer to 11 than it was to 10. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Mr. CLARDY. I am definitely sure in my own mind that it was sometime +after 10:30. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that causes you to fix that precisely? + +Mr. CLARDY. After just thinking, and all the other officers up in the +bureau sure that it was closer to 11 than it was to 10, I don't know +whether I looked at my watch or whether--on a previous deal, or where I +got the 10 o'clock in my mind. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is apparent then that you did have 10 o'clock in +your mind until when speaking to others you became convinced that you +must be wrong and the 11 o'clock is closer to it, is that correct? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was that. I wasn't any--wasn't in +the basement more than 30 minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone speak to you and ask you to correct your +statement from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are doing that on your own volition? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. It is because you have become convinced that you are wrong? + +Mr. CLARDY. I was wrong on the time, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You were wrong? + +Mr. CLARDY. That 10 o'clock is definitely wrong on time. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you are, right now telling us that you are quite +certain that it was? + +Mr. CLARDY. That it was closer to 11 o'clock than it was to 10. + +Mr. HUBERT. That it was closer to 11 than 10. And that the previous +statement about 10 o'clock is simply wrong? + +Mr. CLARDY. Simply wrong; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. No one has asked you to change? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. That wrong time was my fault, and nobody else's. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone speak to you about the wrong time? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Haven't done so to this time? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were off duty on November 22? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that you did not participate in reference to the +investigation concerning the President's death on November 23? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him, and in what way? + +Mr. CLARDY. I had known him approximately in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 +years. + +Mr. HUBERT. In what way? How did you come in contact with him? + +Mr. CLARDY. To the best of my recollection I met him when I went into +his place of business that he owned on South Ervay in connection with +work, when I was working as a patrolman. I say I met him. I didn't +meet him at that time. I knew him, knew who he was. I--first time I +was ever introduced to him, shook hands with him, was at--after I went +into criminal investigation. Possibly in the early part of 1956. I was +looking for someone in connection with an auto theft in the vicinity +of one of the places that he owned and he had an interest in the Vegas +Club. I'm not sure who I was with, or who introduced---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Could you speak a little louder, please? + +Mr. CLARDY. I am not sure who I was with, or who introduced me to him +at that time. Then approximately--maybe 6 or 8 months before this +come up he stopped me downtown one day and started telling me about a +traffic ticket he got. Other than that, I had seen him at a distance +and had spoke to him. I had seen him quite frequently when I was +working late nights where the B and B Club is, that is on Oak Lawn, +close to Lemmon. There is one place of business between the Vegas Club +and the B and B, and we would go in there quite frequently when we were +working late nights, and I have seen him in there on several occasions. + +Mr. HUBERT. Was your acquaintance with him such that you would +recognize him immediately upon seeing him? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Would you recognize him in that way, whether he had a hat +on, or a hat off? + +Mr. CLARDY. I know the man well enough if I caught a glimpse of him I +should recognize him; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I am going to mark a chart of the basement +area of the Dallas Police Department, as follows, to wit: "Dallas, +Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5064. Deposition of B. S. Clardy," +under which I am signing my name. For the purposes of identification, +however, before I move to that, I want to ask you concerning documents +5061, 5062, and 5063, previously identified, which I now hand you again. + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Ask you if there are any other corrections you wish to +make---- + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the documents? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Does the information contained in those documents represent +the truth, so far as you know? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. HUBERT. Any modifications or changes or deletions that you would +like to make? + +Mr. CLARDY. I don't believe there is, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Anything omitted, that you know of? + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the only thing that is not in there that I know +anything about is possibly some of these people that come in and talk +to him after we took him upstairs, which nobody that made any of these +investigations asked me about. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will get to that later, but with the exception +of these omissions that you just mentioned, and to which I will come +back at a later time, these documents represent the truth? There is no +deletion and nothing more to add other than that other matter we have +been talking about? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you to put your name under my signature where it +appears, and your initials under my initials where they appear on each +of the documents. Right there. + +Mr. CLARDY. Right under here? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Just--now, we'll be using this chart later on, which +has been marked 5064, and I have signed it, and I will ask you, for the +purposes of identification, to put your signature under mine on that +one, too. Now, these documents have been corrected, I understand, that +it was simply closer to 10 o'clock than to 11 that you received---- + +Mr. CLARDY. Closer to 11 than 10. + +Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon. Closer to 11 than to 10 when you +received certain instructions from Lieutenant Smart, is that correct? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were these instructions the first connection that you had +with the movement of Oswald? + +Mr. CLARDY. We had been told earlier that morning, approximately--come +on duty at 7 o'clock, and was--and was told to stay in the office. Now, +that---- + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your normal tour began at 7, but you were +told to stay in the office? + +Mr. CLARDY. Was told to stay in the office, that we would have to move +the prisoner. + +Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that? + +Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you anything about how the prisoner was going +to be moved, or at what time? + +Mr. CLARDY. I was under the impression that he didn't know what time or +how, hisself, at the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to form that impression? + +Mr. CLARDY. I think we went to get a cup of coffee, and I asked him, +and he said, "I don't know." + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the impression that he didn't know what the +plans were, actually came from the statement that he himself actually +told you to the effect that he didn't know? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, then what happened after? + +Mr. CLARDY. Sometime shortly before 11, they told us to report to the +basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. Smart did? + +Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart. + +Mr. HUBERT. Lieutenant Smart. + +Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart, myself, and Detective McMillon, Detective +Archer and Detective Watson, and Detective Dawson out of our bureau. + +Mr. HUBERT. You moved as a group? + +Mr. CLARDY. Uh-huh, all down on the same elevator, and there was some +other detectives from the juvenile bureau, I am sure, was on the same +elevator. Detective Lowery, Detective "Blackie" Harrison, and possibly +some others. Those, I'm sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. What instructions were given to you? + +Mr. CLARDY. Went to the basement. Lieutenant Smart---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Speak a little louder. + +Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart is the one, the only one who had any +orders as to what he wanted us to do. Said, "Line up along the wall +here on each side." and help keep the people back out of the way. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that? + +Mr. CLARDY. Well, I tried to, sir. Don't look like we done much good. + +Mr. HUBERT. I did not mean that to be facetious. I was simply following +the line of thought. Then you followed his instructions to line the---- + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want you to take a look at this mockup here and show +us where you stood, if you did stay in one place, from the time that +you got down in the basement area until the shot was fired. + +Mr. CLARDY. Let me get lined out here. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Mr. CLARDY. I was on this corner to--just to the right of it, most of +the time. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. That would be here, isn't it? [Indicating.] + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have marked--you have indicated on the mockup here +a position which I am now marking by a circle. + +Mr. CLARDY. I was just down from the corner. + +Mr. HUBERT. This way? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'll---- + +Mr. CLARDY. In other words, I was close enough to the corner that +I could see around both ways. One occasion, I went and talked to +Detective McMillon. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you took this position, and went over there +and came back, and this is where you were at the time of the shooting? + +Mr. CLARDY. At the actual shooting, I had moved approximately 3 steps +to my right. As they backed this car out, apparently, some reporters +tried to come across here [indicating]. And I had stepped up that way, +not over--not that far up, sir. I only took 2 or 3 steps. I would say +maybe probably as far as from me to you. I had stepped to my right. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, I have marked on Exhibit 5064, as a result +of what you have stated while looking at the mockup, 2 positions +concerning you. One of which I have marked, encircled, "Position of B. +S. Clardy prior to shooting," and second one, which is, you say, is +approximately 3 feet further towards the Commerce Street entrance. + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Which was your position at the time of the shot? + +Mr. CLARDY. At no time---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; might add something a little further, that at no +time other than when I walked across to Detective McMillon do I recall +being over 3 feet from that corner in any direction. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first get to that corner, approximately? + +Mr. CLARDY. That would have been approximately 11 o'clock, maybe 10:55. +It would have been pretty close. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that from the--from between 10:55 and 11 o'clock you +stayed in the position which is marked on Exhibit 5064, that being the +position of B. S. Clardy prior to the shooting. You stayed in that +position all--within 3 feet of it the whole--during the whole time +until Oswald was shot, except on one occasion when you said you went +over to talk to Detective McMillon? + +Mr. CLARDY. That's right. + +Mr. HUBERT. How far did you move, and in what direction did you go? + +Mr. CLARDY. Certainly--well, sir; he was across the aisle on the other +side. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you mark on the map approximately the position +of McMillon when you walked over to him? + +Mr. CLARDY. Approximately--I walked over to him approximately in here +[indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle, now, and I am putting on there, +"Position of McMillon when Clardy walked over," right? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you go back to your original position? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that you stayed there except at +the moment of the shooting you were about 3 feet in the direction of +Commerce Street from that original basic position? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you moved 3 feet towards Commerce +Street, as you say you did? + +Mr. CLARDY. The best of my recollection, as they backed the car out, +that there was some of the press tried to come in front of the car, and +I had to step to my right to watch them, and I stepped to my right and +Captain Fritz had come into my view and stepped down to the right and +turned slightly to my right, and approximately at that time, I hadn't +seen Oswald myself, but approximately at the time I stepped to my right +I saw a blur of fast movement and I tried to turn, and heard the shot. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize Ruby then? + +Mr. CLARDY. I had not seen him to recognize him; no, sir. Just all--I +was turned, moved to the right, and all I could see was a fast blur of +movement. + +Mr. HUBERT. At any time during this time that you were standing in your +original position as marked on the map, or at any time when you went +over to see McMillon, or at any time for that matter, whatsoever, did +you see Jack Ruby in the crowd? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir; I did not; and approximately 2 or 3 minutes before +the shooting I had looked over the crowd in the basement. Why, I don't +know. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did, in fact, look over there? + +Mr. CLARDY. I had looked up to the right. Lieutenant Smart, and--I +think--I am not for sure--Chief Batchelor was with him at the armored +truck, and I did look on over the crowd on back around. Now, this could +have been more than 3 minutes before the shooting occurred. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were the conditions such that if Ruby had been standing in +that crowd you could have singled him out and seen him? + +Mr. CLARDY. As many people as there was in there at the time, sir, he +could have very easily been behind somebody where I couldn't have seen +him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Just how many people were in that area where Ruby +apparently was? I don't mean an accurate count. Of course, you didn't +count them. + +Mr. CLARDY. In the area where I presume that he come from, 12 to 15, +on over behind the rail there was quite a few people, whether he come +across the rail, whether he come down the ramp, like he told us, I +don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, the Main Street ramp itself going toward Main Street, +you figured there were about 15 people? + +Mr. CLARDY. From along here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Don't say "along here," because that won't show up. + +Mr. CLARDY. So that we'll understand what I mean here, take this. There +was people back over in here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's call that area "B" and you are talking about area B, +and you say there was a considerable amount of people? + +Mr. CLARDY. Considerable amount of people back in there and from along +here [indicating], across and along in here [indicating], there was---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am drawing a semicircle, is that approximately +correct? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And I am calling that "line X to Y." + +Mr. CLARDY. I'd say there was a minimum of 15 people from here across +here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Minimum of 15 people in the front row, or some in the back? + +Mr. CLARDY. There were some in the back. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, you think there were about 15 people strung along this +line that we have marked "X to Y," being a curving line, in--and that +there was some back of them, and up the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. CLARDY. At the time, I didn't see anybody back up in here anywhere. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you didn't see anybody---- + +Mr. CLARDY. I didn't see anybody back as far as this [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, the second line which you have described, "as far as +this," is--I'm going to mark that line and put it, for purposes of +identification I'm marking it as a line designated by "1" and "2." Both +numerals being encircled. I should like you to consider the area which +is bounded by these two lines, "XY," and "1, 2," and the rail and at +the wall is area A. Tell me how many people you think were in area A? + +Mr. CLARDY. In this area here? I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. In area A, which has been designated by you as being +encompassed between line "X" and "1," that being a curving line. Line +"1,"--point "1" in a point to point "2" in a circle, the rail and the +wall---- + +Mr. CLARDY. I'd say there was approximately four or five people up and +down here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are describing with the pencil---- + +Mr. CLARDY. Where the circle is down across here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. You are describing with the pencil about four or five +people along the rail lining of the basement side of the rail, is that +correct? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir--no, sir; on the ramp side. + +Mr. HUBERT. Ramp side, parking area side? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; on the ramp side. Not the parking area side. On +the--this being the ramp here [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes. + +Mr. CLARDY. Coming off from Main. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see what you mean, on the ramp side? + +Mr. CLARDY. On the ramp side. There was a couple of uniformed officers +in this area. I am not sure. + +Mr. HUBERT. McMillon was one of them, wasn't he? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, it was. You put his position, also, did you see W. J. +Harrison in that group? + +Mr. CLARDY. W. J.? That is a detective in the juvenile bureau? + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know. I can't testify. I am not--well, that's +all right. + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, there was a detective, I am pretty sure the one you +are talking about. I don't know him real well? + +Mr. HUBERT. That's all right. + +Mr. CLARDY. I don't know whether it was Harrison that was along in here +[indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you make a circle and state where you think +"Blackie" Harrison was at the time of the shooting? + +Mr. CLARDY. Time I saw Detective Harrison, to the best of my knowledge, +he was along in there [indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am marking that circle by putting "Position of 'Blackie' +Harrison at time of shooting," is that correct or at the time you saw +him? + +Mr. CLARDY. At the time I checked, looked over the basement, which +would have been approximately 3 minutes, 2 or 3 minutes before the +shooting. + +Mr. HUBERT. You saw him 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting. Now, I'll +ask you to check that again, that circle that I have designated by the +legend, "position of 'Blackie' Harrison at the time Clardy saw him 2 or +3 minutes prior to the shooting." Is that approximately the position of +Mr. Harrison at the time designated? + +Mr. CLARDY. Correct. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was the time you looked over the crowd? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. In that area, again, can you tell us about how many people +were concentrated? + +Mr. CLARDY. Including a couple of uniformed officers in that area, +there was possibly six or seven people in that area at that time. + +Mr. HUBERT. At the time you looked over at the crowd then you could see +that if he stays behind this crowd of people looking up the Main Street +ramp---- + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody come down at all? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement there? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. I saw the--I say "movement"--I saw the car that +Lieutenant Pierce drove out that ramp, and at the time that the car +approached the top of the ramp there was nobody in that area. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the car at the top of the ramp? + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the car now as it went out--let me get this straight +here. + +Mr. HUBERT. Don't use the map now, if you can do it without it. + +Mr. CLARDY. Let me get it straight here. I watched the car drive out +until he drove approximately half, or maybe three-fourths of the way +up, and at that time, clear back down to here [indicating] there was +nobody in between. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Mr. CLARDY. Now, as to what--watching it drive on up to the top of the +ramp, no, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not see it drive to the top? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, roughly between half and three-fourths of the way up +the ramp? Were you looking in that direction after the car had passed +out of the ramp? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you think this, if anybody had come running down +there you would have seen them? + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, it is quite possible that somebody could have come +running down there and I wouldn't have seen them. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not, in any case, see anybody? + +Mr. CLARDY. I did not see anybody. Now, I was facing more over in--oh, +almost straight across the ramp after I looked over the---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Over the crowd? + +Mr. CLARDY. Over the crowd. + +Mr. HUBERT. And you looked over the crowd prior to the time the car +passed? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did not look over the crowd then--after that? + +Mr. CLARDY. No. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is possible from your position that anybody +could have come down that ramp and you would not have seen them? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that, sir? + +Mr. CLARDY. Well, I wasn't just in particular watching toward the +direction--at the time that Lieutenant Pierce come out, there was a +lot of these people moving around, and I was trying to keep an eye on +them. At the time the other car was brought out--being brought out, +there was a lot of those people over in this area in here moving around +[indicating]. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have already testified that as to the +actual shooting itself, you just saw a movement? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Off to your left? + +Mr. CLARDY. Just a blur of movement. + +Mr. HUBERT. When did you first identify Ruby? + +Mr. CLARDY. After he had been taken inside the jail office. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then? + +Mr. CLARDY. As I went inside the main jail office they had the cuffs on +him, and Detective McMillon said, "Well, let's take him on upstairs." +And said, "Barney, take my gun." + +I took Detective McMillon's gun out of his holster, and at the time I +did, Jack Ruby said, "I'm Jack Ruby. Don't you know me? Don't you know +me?" Said, "Yes, I know you, Jack," something to that effect. I am not +sure, because I was sick to my stomach of what had happened, and then +seeing him and wondering in my own mind how in the world a man had +ever got in there. I took Detective McMillon's gun and mine and put it +in one of the lockers in the jail office there, which is provided for +that purpose. And along with Detective McMillon, Detective "Blackie" +Harrison, and Detective Archer, and there was some other detectives on +the elevator with us, and I'm not sure who, and we took Ruby directly +to the fifth floor. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comments during that trip? + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I was on the--I was the last one that got to the +elevator. If he was--made any comment on the way up I didn't hear him. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, in your statement to the FBI agent which has been +identified as No. 5063, you stated he did mention other things. That +you had heard Ruby mention that he had intended to get off three shots, +do you recall that? + +Mr. CLARDY. That was after we got upstairs. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that. + +Mr. CLARDY. I am not sure who asked him the question. I believe it was +Detective Archer, and asked him in some way, "Did you intend to"--or, +"Did you think you could kill the man with one shot?" And he said, "I +intended to get off three shots." Said, "I didn't think that I could be +stopped before I got off three shots." But, that, I---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Ruby, or did anyone ask Ruby in your presence +how he had gotten into the basement? + +Mr. CLARDY. I asked Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. You did by yourself? + +Mr. CLARDY. I asked him myself, and I am sure there were several others +who did. + +Mr. HUBERT. That was when you were up on the fifth floor? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; shortly after he got---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Shortly after? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him, and what did he reply? What did you +ask him first? + +Mr. CLARDY. I asked him how he got into the basement and how long he +had been there. I don't know whether that is the exact words I asked +him in or not, and he said that Lieutenant Pierce, or he called him +Rio Pierce--I believe said Rio Pierce, Lt. Rio Pierce drove out in the +car and the officer stepped out from the ramp momentarily to talk to +Lieutenant Pierce, or said something to him, and I come in behind him +right on down the ramp, and says, "When I got approximately halfway +down the ramp I heard somebody holler, 'Hey, you,' but I don't know +whether he was hollering at me or not, but I just ducked my head and +kept coming." + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything further? + +Mr. CLARDY. Further stated, said, "If I had planned this I couldn't +have had my timing better." Said, "It was one chance in a million." Or +something to that effect. Said, "If I had planned this, I couldn't have +had my timing any better." + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any statement to you as to why he had done it? + +Mr. CLARDY. He said--no, somebody--I was going to ask him, and I am +sure some other officer asked him as to why. He said, "Somebody had to +do it. You all couldn't." + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only explanation he offered? + +Mr. CLARDY. Well, later on we talked to him a little further and he +went into this long story about how much he thought of President +Kennedy, and how he was remorseful. Didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to have to +come to testify on a trial, and---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything here to indicate that he had any +accomplices in his act? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had been to the Western Union +that morning? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about where his car was? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about there being a dog in it? + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I recall that he said there was some money in the car. +I--I don't recall him saying it in my presence, about the dog being in +it. I do recall that he talked later about some dogs that he had that +he thought so much of. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, a bit earlier when I asked you whether or +not there were any omissions from the documents, Exhibits Nos. 5061, +5062, and 5063, you indicated there was an omission concerning what had +been said to you by some people who had talked to you. I think that is +what the omission--it was something along that line. Do you recall what +that was now? + +Mr. CLARDY. Well, I think some of the stuff that we have gone into +there that you have asked me as to some of the things that were said, +or on down the line that I don't--I don't recall any of the FBI agents +asking me who come up there and talked to him, whether they did or not, +I don't know. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell me what you had in mind a little while +ago in the deposition when you said, "Yes, this is all right, but there +has been omitted something," and I told you at that time, "Well, we'll +come back to it a bit later," and now, I am coming back to it. I was +wondering just what you had in mind when you stated that there had been +an omission? + +Mr. CLARDY. I don't believe it is in that report that Secret Service +agent, Mr. Sorrels, came up shortly after we arrived and talked to Mr. +Ruby. + +Mr. HUBERT. I think that---- + +Mr. CLARDY. Whether that is in there or not---- + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you had in mind? + +Mr. CLARDY. That and the FBI agent, Mr. Hall, then came up and talked +to Ruby off and on until the time that he was taken to Captain Fritz' +office. + +Mr. HUBERT. How long a period was that? + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, he was up there probably within 15 to 20 minutes after +we had taken Mr. Ruby upstairs. Agent Hall was, and he talked to Mr. +Ruby at considerable length until he had several telephone calls. I +don't know who they were from or what they was about, but, that he was +called to the telephone several times while he was up there. + +Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Sorrels was present also? + +Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels had left before Mr. Hall come up there. Sorrels +had talked briefly to Mr. Ruby. I say, "briefly," he--approximately 10 +minutes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if I can get the time sequence. Within 15 minutes +after Ruby was brought to the top--to the fifth floor, Mr. Hall came? + +Mr. CLARDY. Uh-huh. + +Mr. HUBERT. And interviewed him, with some interruptions by telephone +calls, for approximately what, now, an hour and a half? + +Mr. CLARDY. I'd say Mr. Hall was up there 3-1/2 hours. + +Mr. HUBERT. Three and a half hours. + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the 15 minutes or so before Mr. Hall came, Mr. +Sorrels came? + +Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels came. + +Mr. HUBERT. And stayed about 10 minutes? + +Mr. CLARDY. Mr. Sorrels came up just very briefly. Very shortly after. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you meant when you mentioned a little while +ago that there was some omissions from your statement? + +Mr. CLARDY. That is what I had reference to; yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did you have reference to any other omissions? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then, let's put it this way. You have already stated +that what is in these records, these three exhibits, 5061, 5062, and +5063, are true and correct; that you did not want to modify or change +anything that you had previously said. That it was some omissions, and +now, do I understand you to say that the omissions that you previously +spoke of is what you just testified to? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other omissions that you know of? + +Mr. CLARDY. None that I know of. + +Mr. HUBERT. So, that by taking Exhibits 5061, 5062, and 5063, together +with your deposition today, is it fair to state that there is on record +everything you know about the assassination of Oswald? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, other than the interview that you had with me earlier +today, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, the interview you had with me was prior to lunch, is +that correct? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Can you state now whether there are any inconsistencies +between your deposition and what we discussed at the interview to which +I have just referred? + +Mr. CLARDY. Nothing other than the--you were referring to those +previous statements? + +Mr. HUBERT. No; I am referring to any inconsistencies between what you +testified today and the interview we had this morning? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you provided, or had--or did you provide in that +interview this morning any material as to which you have not testified +to in this deposition? + +Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else at all that you would like to state +that has not been said in one way or another by you? + +Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the only thing that I could add in any way, that I can +think of, would be that the--Mr. Ruby appeared to be normal on that day. + +Mr. HUBERT. Then do you think you knew him well enough to be able to +judge whether he was normal or not? + +Mr. CLARDY. From his expressions or the way he talked led me to believe +that the man was normal, that he knew what he was doing. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than that observation then? + +Mr. CLARDY. It wouldn't be anything that I could think of that I would +add. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right; if you do think of anything, I want to ask +you to please feel free to come forward and state it, because quite +frankly, a person will forget something, and if you do remember +anything, don't hesitate to come forward with it, even though you might +say to yourself, "Well, I have already said there is nothing more, and +now I am coming back to add something." I ask you not to feel that +way, but on the other hand, to feel free to come forward, because the +Commission wants to know all the facts, and we want to get the facts, +even though you may not recollect them until after this deposition is +over. I trust you will do that? + +Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, thank you very much. I want to thank you +personally and on behalf of the Commission for your assistance. Thank +you, sir. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN + +The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 8 p.m., on March 24, +1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. + + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record, first of all, introduce +myself. As you probably heard I am Burt Griffin. I am a member of the +advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's +Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. +Now, this Commission was set up under an Executive order of President +Johnson, dated November 29, 1963, called Executive Order No. 11130. +Also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. We have adopted a +number of rules and so forth which I will explain to you a little bit +beforehand, pursuant to all these resolutions, I have been authorized +by the General Counsel to take the deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean, who +is right here. + +I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of the inquiry +that we are going into here. As the title of the Commission would +indicate, + +VOICE. I hate to interrupt, but---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As I say, I want to tell you a little bit about the scope +of this inquiry that we are going to go into. We have been authorized +to inquire into and evaluate and report to the President on all the +facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and all the +facts surrounding the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Calling you, Sergeant Dean, we are particularly interested in the facts +that surround the death of Oswald, although we don't mean to preclude +any other information that you may have which may pertain to the whole +area in which we are going. There has been a written request made to +Chief Curry, by the general counsel of our Commission staff, asking +that you appear here some time during this particular week. Now, this +is not quite in full keeping with the rules that have been set forth by +the Commission. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to +a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. This is +going to be sworn testimony. The rules also provide, however, that you +may waive this notice. I want to ask you right now, Sergeant Dean, if +you are willing to waive the written 3-day notice which you can require +us to give you? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes. I will waive it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, I also want to tell you that you are entitled, +under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present, if you +want, and I notice you are not here today with an attorney, and I +presume that is your desire, but do you? + +Mr. DEAN. I will waive that, also. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth? + +Mr. DEAN. I do. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name? + +Mr. DEAN. Patrick Trevore Dean. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. DEAN. 2822 Nicholson, Dallas. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed? + +Mr. DEAN. Police Department. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. DEAN. 11 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you hold any particular rank in the department? + +Mr. DEAN. I am a sergeant. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a sergeant? + +Mr. DEAN. 6 years. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What section were you assigned to in the police department? + +Mr. DEAN. Patrol division. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That was on November 22, 23, and 24? + +Mr. DEAN. That's correct. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, it's my understanding that you were not on duty on +either November 22 or 23? + +Mr. DEAN. That's correct. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these your regular off duty days? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come to work on Sunday, November 24? + +Mr. DEAN. At 7 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you came to work, had you heard +anything about the proposed move of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; well, before I came to work, no, sir; I hadn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you came to work did you know that Oswald was going +to be moved that day? + +Mr. DEAN. Just rumored that some time during the day that he would be +moved. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard that? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, rumors in around city hall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been around the city hall on the 23d? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the 22d? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where then did you hear these rumors? + +Mr. DEAN. I had just come into town just about the time the President +landed on Friday. I had been out to south Texas deer hunting, and that +day, I, of course, listened to all the news about the assassination, +and also the next day, on the 23d, and then on the 24th at 7 o'clock is +when I reported for duty. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you indicated to me, though, that you had heard +rumors around the police station? + +Mr. DEAN. This was on the 24th. They had said that sometime during +the day that Oswald would be moved. Now, who they are would be in the +captain's office, around in the captain's office and in my office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Referring to that period before you came on duty, had you +heard any rumors then? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you arrived you didn't have any idea that Oswald +was going to be moved that day? + +Mr. DEAN. Repeat it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived at 7 o'clock Sunday morning---- + +Mr. DEAN. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't have any idea Oswald was going to be moved that +day? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Did you drive down to work that day? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked your car? + +Mr. DEAN. That being Sunday, I believe I parked in the 2100 block of +Jackson Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how you entered the police department +building? + +Mr. DEAN. On the Commerce Street side going to the basement. Not into +the parking area where the incident occurred, but going into the police +and courts building from Commerce Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you entered at 7 o'clock--I know it's difficult to +pick out what you saw at one time and what you saw at another time. Did +you see any TV cables---- + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Strung through that entrance? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; numerous television cables and cameras. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think back as best you can and tell us, as you +walked in from Commerce Street, you know, you come down the steps---- + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to open the door? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And that will take you into the hallway? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That leads to the records room. Now, as you got into that +area there where you open up the door and so forth, did you see any TV +cables strung through that doorway? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe there was a lot of TV cable down at the +end of the hall there, toward the jail office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, talking now about right up at the---- + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any TV cables come through that Commerce Street +entrance? + +Mr. DEAN. I don't recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got inside? + +Mr. DEAN. I went immediately to the basement, changed clothes into my +uniform and then went to the second floor, which is patrol captain's +office, where I report for duty. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you report to there? + +Mr. DEAN. Captain Talbert. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a conversation with Talbert at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. Nothing specific; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Talbert give you an assignment at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Talbert talk to you in anyway about the movement of +Oswald at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you learn somewhere after you arrived at work +that someone had made a telephone call in connection with the movement +of Oswald, threatening Oswald's life? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes; did I learn of a telephone call? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. I heard Captain Frazier, I believe it was, talking to Captain +Talbert, and in my presence, and several others. I don't remember which +ones, sergeants and a lieutenant or so, that I believe it was Sheriff +Decker called during the night and asked that Oswald be moved during +the night sometime. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this conversation take place; how soon after you +came to work? + +Mr. DEAN. It was some time--probably it would have been a little before +7 o'clock, because we meet downstairs at 7 o'clock sharp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. DEAN. In the detail room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So this would have been almost within a few minutes of the +time that you had walked in? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were Talbert and Frazier--and who else was present +during the conversation? + +Mr. DEAN. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was there, myself and Sergeant +Putnam might have been there. Several other sergeants. See, this is the +change time and all of his supervisors, Captain Frazier's and Captain +Talbert's, the ones that are working that day, they will generally be +in the office at that time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where we were? + +(The record was here read by the reporter.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other things that were said? Try to +think about what these people said when this topic was brought up. + +Mr. DEAN. Captain Frazier said something to the effect that he had +called Captain Fritz when Sheriff Decker called to request the movement +of Oswald, and Captain Fritz stated that he didn't think that Chief +Curry wanted him moved during the night, that it was--he would be moved +some time this day, that day, rather than in the night. It would be +this day. That's where I got it that he was to be moved on the 24th. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I take it that this was sort of changing of the +guard at this point, and Frazier was going off duty and he was sort of +passing on the word to Talbert? + +Mr. DEAN. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Talbert say in response to that information? + +Mr. DEAN. I don't remember. The thing that I got, or impression that +I got, was that they were just waiting for Chief Curry to say to +move him, until they had proper authorization to move him, from our +department rather than from the sheriff. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Rio Pierce present at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. I think that he was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is my understanding of this situation that you +had there at that time is Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce and the +sergeants that were all under them, kind of a general briefing? + +Mr. DEAN. That's correct. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Talbert then discuss this matter with you people +who were on his shift? + +Mr. DEAN. Not at this time. We went back downstairs to the basement +to the whole detail. This is to assign the patrolmen out on their +tour of duty, to brief them of the new orders, if there had been any, +and generally to get the men out in the field in the squad cars. This +happens at 7 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you send all the men out that you normally would +send out? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; with some few that we would use, the ones of which +I can't recall. I imagine it would have been equivalent to three or +four men that we would have kept in the city hall itself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time did you have any thought of how you would +assemble the necessary men to handle the transfer? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had this initial meeting with Talbert, what +did you do? + +Mr. DEAN. Now, you are referring to after the detail? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After you assigned these men, and what you called the +general orders? + +Mr. DEAN. We went back to the second floor, back to Captain Talbert's +office, which is the general offices for the patrol division. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened up there? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't remember anything specific until about--I, +myself, went to the third floor to familiarize myself with the +happenings, about the news cameramen and just to get an idea of what +was going on and who was to be present, such as that, because I had +been off. This was my first day back since--in a week, in fact. I had +been on a few days vacation to go hunting. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you went up to the third floor, did you have +any idea as to what your general responsibilities were going to be for +the day? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; not at that time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I think I am misleading you. First of all, you have some +general responsibility, standard responsibilities that you have every +day? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those particular responsibilities? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I am assigned to a zone area that has a group of 6 +squads that work for me, equivalent to 15 men. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What zone is that? + +Mr. DEAN. No. 110. It's in the eastern portion of Dallas. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the Love Field area? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this is the--Love Field area is north Dallas. I am +in the eastern portion of Dallas. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And do you normally handle most of your duties from +right within the police station? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir: I have various paperwork to do in the office at +times. Generally I am out in the car, answering calls with the squads, +or when they need advice, supervision, well, I generally answer their +calls. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you met with Talbert the second time +upon the second floor, did you have any idea at that time that your +duties would be any different on Sunday than they were on any other +date? + +Mr. DEAN. I assumed that I would probably confine myself to the city +hall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to make that assumption? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, because of my seniority. It was just assumed that they +would want me there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so you went up to the third floor then? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you talk to and who did you see up there on +the third floor? + +Mr. DEAN. No one in particular. I just went up to see what was going +on on the third floor. This is the first time I had been to the third +floor. There were numerous cameras there, lot of cables. Just as you +get off the elevator there was a lot of cameras. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you were up on the third +floor? + +Mr. DEAN. Probably 8 o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up to the third floor again during the morning; +that is between that time and the time that Oswald was shot, did you +have occasion to go back to the third floor? + +Mr. DEAN. I believe I did, but for no specific purpose. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can separate out the different times that you +might have been up there, I want to know as best you recall whether +there were news people up there on the third floor when you went up +this first time, around--what did you say, 8 o'clock? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes. Were there news people up there? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see newspaper people up there at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether the TV cameras were manned at that +time? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether these people seemed to be operating +the cameras, shooting footage or did they seem to be in any sort of +operation? + +Mr. DEAN. They did have a monitor, small monitor set that they had the +cameras on. However, they weren't broadcasting at the time. They might +have been taping. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any other people that you thought were newsmen +up there, other than those manning the cameras? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Pressmen. Newspaper people, none of which I can +recall that I knew myself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What's your best estimate of the number of news people +that were up there at about 8 o'clock? + +Mr. DEAN. Twenty-five, possibly. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this create to you what appeared to be a crowded +condition? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain up there on the third floor? + +Mr. DEAN. Oh, maybe 10 or 15 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall if you went into the homicide bureau? + +Mr. DEAN. Sometime during that morning I did step into the homicide +bureau. However, I don't know who I talked to. And then there wasn't +any specific reason that I did go in there. I just stepped in. The +hall was very crowded. It might have been just that I was close to the +homicide office and I stepped in there to get out of the crowd, because +it was the least congested. There were no newsmen or pressmen in there, +no cameras. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell, when you were up there at about 8 +o'clock, what the general impression seemed to be as to when Oswald +would be moved? + +Mr. DEAN. The impression I got, there was anticipation from the newsmen +that--and the hopes of the newsmen, that he would probably be moved +that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But as to how early in the day, did you get any idea of +what they were thinking of? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. This was at anytime. This was the impression I got, +at anytime he could be moved. They were ready to start shooting, or go +live television, I am sure, at anytime, at a moment's notice. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they ask you any particular questions? + +Mr. DEAN. None specific; no, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they attempt to approach you or shout things at you? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other bureaus you went in on the third +floor? + +Mr. DEAN. That was all. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you go from the third floor? + +Mr. DEAN. Went back down to the second floor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you see down there? + +Mr. DEAN. Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation you had with them? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, general conversation that morning was when possibly +Oswald might be moved. Of course, I was waiting for instructions as to +what to do when he was moved. I received my first instructions about 9 +o'clock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you receive those instructions from? + +Mr. DEAN. From Lieutenant Pierce. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know who Lieutenant Pierce received his +instructions from? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Pierce tell you? + +Mr. DEAN. His instructions were for me to take a group of men and--or +whatever men I needed, and thoroughly search the garage portion of the +basement, to vacate it and then thoroughly search it. I---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--go ahead. + +Mr. DEAN. I took about 13 reserve officers that were waiting in the +assembly room, which is on the ground floor, the basement floor, along +with Sergeant Putnam, Officer L. E. Jez, and A. R. Brock, and these 13 +reserves that were in the detail room at that time, names of which I +don't know. They were commanded by Captain Arnett. I do know this. And +Captain Arnett assisted in the search, too. We vacated the basement of +all people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Are you talking about just the garage area or +the entire basement? + +Mr. DEAN. The garage area. And I assigned Officer R. E. Vaughn to the +entrance ramp, which is entering on Main Street, Officer R. C. Nelson +to the doorway coming from the police and court building and into the +basement, and Officer B. G. Patterson the Commerce Street ramp, which +is the exit, and I assigned one reserve officer to the southern portion +of the basement, to the stairways that lead into the subbasement or the +machine room. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the regular officers that you assigned were Vaughn, +Nelson, and Patterson, is that right? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of those men members of your platoon? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; all of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they happen to be in the building at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. I believe they were the officers that we retained that +morning to assist us for whatever might have to be done in the morning, +or during the day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they normally have assignments in patrol cars some +place? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; all of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made the decision to keep those men in? + +Mr. DEAN. I would imagine Lieutenant Pierce. To retain them at city +hall during the day? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. I imagine Lieutenant Pierce did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I ask you directly, you did not, if I understand +correctly, you did not make that decision? + +Mr. DEAN. To retain them at the city hall? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; they were there and I utilized them for this purpose. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there other people who were retained at city +hall besides those three men in the platoon? + +Mr. DEAN. There were other men that were called back in from patrol +duty to supplement what men we had at the central headquarters. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But these were the only three men who actually stayed back +and never went out to the field at all? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason that you can think of why those +three men should have been kept there? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; other than just assignment, routine assignment. I +mean it could have been someone else as well as it was them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you assigned reserve officers--somebody, rather---- + +Mr. DEAN. To the southern portion of the basement? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put a guard on that door, or in that area? + +Mr. DEAN. For security reasons. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any reason to think that it would be possible +to get through from the subbasement? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I knew that there were doors going into the subbasement +from--however, I checked them and they were locked, but still there +was a possibility, since you did have doors there, or ingress from the +street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where the ingress from the street to the +subbasement is? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; as you enter on Commerce Street, going down into +the basement, there is a door on the southern side of the--just before +you go into the main part of the basement, that leads down. It's the +porters' quarters, that leads down to the porters' quarters. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any other entrance into that subbasement? + +Mr. DEAN. The elevators in the new city hall is the only ones that you +can get in, is the only place, other than the ramp--we had all places +covered. In fact, I assigned---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am talking about the subbasement now. + +Mr. DEAN. The garage portion? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right. + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; there is no other place. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that door that comes into Commerce Street? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; well, there is a door that was locked, another door +that's used as a--oh, I think they sometimes throw materials--it's not +even an elevator. It appears to be an elevator door, if you open it up, +it's a straight drop into the subbasement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that? + +Mr. DEAN. I had the maintenance man open this door for me. He did and +I could see that you couldn't--or it would be hard for a man to climb +up a straight wall to open these doors. You couldn't open them from the +inside or the subbasement side of the door. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a clear recollection as to whether or not +any TV or radio or other wires came through the subbasement door up to +the basement area in the garage? + +Mr. DEAN. There were none coming out. From the subbasement into the +garage area? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. There were not. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any TV or radio or other wires coming into the +garage area other than through the ramps? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you give these people you stationed in the +garage area, Nelson and the reserve officer and--who was it that you +stationed--did you station somebody by the elevators at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; Brock. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Those three men, did you give them any specific +instructions? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those instructions? + +Mr. DEAN. That they were to let no one in other than--well, first +that they were to let no one in until we had completely searched the +basement, and then that we would notify them after we had completed the +search, and then they were to let no one in except authorized pressmen, +properly identified pressmen, newsmen, or policemen. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some reason to think that those people might +be coming through the entranceways that they were guarding? + +Mr. DEAN. Did I have some reason to think this? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. It was strictly security. I was doing exactly what my orders +were, to keep all people out. As far as any reason other than strictly +security; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am suggesting, really, is that you could have given +them a blanket order, "Don't let anybody in there"? + +Mr. DEAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Any reason why you didn't give them that blanket order? +Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were we? + +(The record was here read by the reporter.) + +Mr. DEAN. To just let no one in? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. Well, just a moment. Let me--I knew that the pressmen--I +am wondering where I--it was just generally assumed to me that the +pressmen would be allowed to witness the movement of Oswald. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But from these doors, now, the men that were on the ramps, +of course, you would expect an influxion of people down those ramps, +but from those interior doors in the garage, I am wondering what +expectation you could have that anybody would be coming through there? +I am not asking this question to try to trip you up or anything like +that, but I am just wondering if you thought about this? You might +think of something that you had in mind that might shed some light on +this. + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; the only thing, I was searching the basement and to +do this I had to clear the basement to satisfy myself that there was +no one in the basement, and after I was satisfied with this, then the +press and the police officers could come back in the basement, if they +were properly identified. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you instructed Nelson and Brock and the reserve +officer, were Vaughn and Patterson also present? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, they were guarding the ramps? + +Mr. DEAN. Right. Patterson, Vaughn were guarding the ramps, and +that was my instructions to them, to keep everyone out until we had +completed the search. Then after we had completed the search, to let +no one in other than properly identified pressmen or policemen, and to +not to leave those assignments unless they were relieved by myself or +Sergeant Putnam. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you give us some idea of how many cars there were +in the garage at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. Some, I would say 25 or 30. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these cars eventually moved out at any time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; some few of them were district squad cars that had +come in with prisoners, and then, of course, they left, but as a mass +movement to move the cars out, we didn't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who checked the stairway door in the garage that leads up +into the municipal building? + +Mr. DEAN. The stairway door? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. I don't know of any door that leads up into the--the stairway? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a stairway---- + +Mr. DEAN. That goes down into the subbasement? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, over where the elevators are---- + +Mr. DEAN. Oh. Oh, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You know what I am talking about? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who checked that door? + +Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Putnam checked it once and I checked it once and it +was locked. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time you checked it that even though +the door was locked from the outside, it could be opened from the +inside? + +Mr. DEAN. [No response.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state this again. Even though the door would be +locked from the garage side, that from the stairway side it would be +unlocked; were you aware of that? + +Mr. DEAN. I believe we asked the maintenance man about this, and I +believe he locked it so as it couldn't be unlocked from either side +unless they had a key. I believe Sergeant Putnam called this to the +maintenance man's attention, and I recall being there at the time they +were discussing it, and I think at that time the maintenance man locked +the door so it couldn't be unlocked from either side other than with a +key. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the name of this maintenance man? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't know. I didn't know his name to start with. +However, I did know he was the maintenance man, by sight. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get ahold of this maintenance man? + +Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Putnam, I believe, had gotten--or had thought about +this and asked him, or he had gotten in touch with him some way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this at the same time you had the 13 men in the garage +searching, or at some later time? + +Mr. DEAN. This was during the search. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know where this maintenance man was located---- + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When Putnam found him? + +Mr. DEAN. I don't. I do know I sent for him one time, or had an officer +to go page the maintenance man to meet me, to have him unlock this door +in question, that I thought--or I wanted it opened so I could see in +it, to see if it was a service elevator or what. I had never seen that +door opened before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you make any inquiries about the passenger +elevators? + +Mr. DEAN. Coming into the garage portion? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. Yes; they were operating at the time. I think there were two +colored boys that were operating the elevators, and we told them not to +come down to the basement for any reason. And we posted Brock there at +the elevators. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so that we understand what we are talking about, +my recollection is that there is another elevator that's a service +elevator also? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. This was the one that was operating, primarily, +that morning. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can help things out here somewhat. This is a +diagram of the basement area, and I am going to mark this "Dallas, +Tex., Sergeant Dean, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5007." + +Now, making reference, Sergeant, to this particular diagram here, at +the time you searched the garage, it is my understanding that what's +marked on here as elevators Nos. 1 and 2 were operable, that there +were some colored boys in there, or somebody who was operating those +elevators? + +Mr. DEAN. No. I believe those were not in operation, Nos. 1 and 2. The +service elevator was, I do know. There was the parking attendant, a +colored boy, and he sits here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a mark on that diagram there, make it an +X? + +Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you want to label that parking attendant, or +whatever you think is appropriate? + +Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating], this is a colored boy that usually +sits here. He has a bench there he sits on until he is needed. We made +him leave. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Made him leave? + +Mr. DEAN. In fact, I think he was relieved from duty that day, because +I took him out of the Commerce Street ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And was there somebody operating that service elevator? + +Mr. DEAN. The service elevator? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were in that service elevator? + +Mr. DEAN. There was one. When I said two persons I was thinking of +the elevator operator, which is also a colored boy, and the parking +attendant. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to just put an X on the service elevator, to +indicate there was somebody in there? + +Mr. DEAN. All right, sir [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you want to place a mark at approximately the place +that you stationed the men who were guarding the entrance to the +subbasement, this reserve officer? + +Mr. DEAN. Oh, the subbasement. Let me see--[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain this diagram to you. This is the basement, +this dotted line here is the upstairs [indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. Oh, I see. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This actually goes under the sidewalk here [indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. This is where the reserve officer was [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you station Brock? + +Mr. DEAN. Put him in a position that he could see this door here and +also these three elevators [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who else did you station in the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. No one--well, Nelson was--let's see, Nelson was here +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you place Vaughn and where did you place +Patterson? + +Mr. DEAN. Is this the exit proper, door, here to the--[indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. This would be the top of the ramp here [indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you want to sign this down here and mark +on there the time, sign it there and then in the middle of the diagram, +so it doesn't confuse things here, put the--well, sign it over under +here. If we put time in here, somebody may think that was the time +that you made the mark on here. Then if you would label this status of +basement, whenever it was that--[indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. During the search? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Very good. Now, you have marked on here +approximately 9:15 to 9:30 a.m. I am not going to ask you what you +found there and so forth, because you have made a full statement on +it. We know, for example, you found a rifle in the back of one of the +police cars? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the search was completed, where did you go? + +Mr. DEAN. The pressmen were allowed to come back in. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, where had they been removed to? + +Mr. DEAN. Into the police court building, or the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. By the records room? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And they were allowed back in the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of the number of policemen that +came back into the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, of course, it increased as the time went on, so it +would be hard to---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspapermen did you have to clear out of the +basement at 9:15, approximately? + +Mr. DEAN. Oh, approximately 15 or 20, maybe 25. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you went down into the basement, before the +search, were there any TV cameras down there? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I believe there was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to indicate on the map here where it is that +you think the TV cameras, or camera was placed? + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there was a TV camera at this location +[indicating]? + +Mr. DEAN. I believe there was. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am referring, so that the record will reflect this, +to a TV camera that's in the entranceway from the ramp, towards the +jail office, and it's on the Commerce Street wall, along the Commerce +Street wall. Did you move that TV camera at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. Moved the operators away from it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after that, after you completed the +search and let the people back into the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. Let me think. I believe I stayed in the basement area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you completed the search, had you heard +anything about the time that Oswald would be moved? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything about the route that he would be +moved by? + +Mr. DEAN. At the time---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. That you completed the search? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes. About, somewhere around 9:45, Captain Talbert sent me +a group of regular officers that had been called in off of patrol +district. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can I help you? + +Mr. DEAN. My report [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes [indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. I didn't have in my original report, I do have in my original +notes in my locker, as to some traffic assignments that I made. This +was about 9:45. These men were sent to me by Captain Talbert. I briefed +them about here in the basement, away from everyone, to let no one know +the route. This is when Captain Talbert advised me that the route would +be to leave the Commerce Street side, go to the expressway, north to +Main [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Pearl Expressway or Central Expressway? + +Mr. DEAN. Central Expressway. And then west on Main to the county +courthouse, or the sheriff's office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit +here. Up to this point had you heard anything about a proposed route +that would have gone from Central Expressway and turned at Elm Street, +rather than Main Street? + +Mr. DEAN. I was thinking it was--I knew that they changed it, after +I made my assignment I had to change them again, because they said +they wasn't going to use it. It was either Main Street that they +weren't going to use, they were going to Commerce--however, I think +you are right. I think originally my assignments were made at the +intersections--not Commerce, but Elm, and then they changed the--they +being Captain Talbert, and told me that they would not use Elm, that +they would use Main Street. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw a big circle in this area where you +instructed these men, to show roughly what area the men covered, and +would you put an appropriate note on there as to what happened and what +time? + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many men did you give instructions to? + +Mr. DEAN. 13, 15. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you just put that number there? + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did those men then take police vehicles and go to +their appointed spots? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Immediately to their squad cars that had been +parked outside and then--they reported into the basement to me for +these assignments, they went immediately to these assignments, and +these assignments were made at various intersections along the proposed +route that Oswald would be transferred. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Brock in the basement at the time that you gave +that assignment? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. However, he was still at the elevators then. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Patterson and Vaughn? + +Mr. DEAN. They were at their stations. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. After you made those assignments, what did you do? + +Mr. DEAN. I moved back to the area, when you come out of the jail +office, to the ramp, and this is when Lieutenant Pierce came up to me +and appeared to be in a hurry--well now, the armored car had already +backed into the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How much before---- + +Mr. DEAN. This armored car had backed into the ramp as I was standing +here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's place these times a little bit. How long was it +between the time that you instructed these 13 to 15 men to go on their +posts and the time that the armored car arrived? + +Mr. DEAN. Oh, 10 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't put down here where you made that note, about 10 +minutes before armored car arrived? + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, how much time elapsed between the time you made +assignment to these men and the time that you searched the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. Fifteen or twenty minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Why don't you put down here then 15 or 20 minutes +before assignment to Elm Street? + +Mr. DEAN. Elm Street? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I understand about the time that the +armored car arrived, or was it shortly after the armored car arrived, +you had a conversation with Lieutenant Pierce? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How much after the armored car arrived would you say that +conversation occurred? + +Mr. DEAN. Five minutes after the armored car arrived. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. We don't need to mark that. And this conversation with +Lieutenant Pierce occurred in the entranceway, off the Main Street ramp +toward the jail office? + +Mr. DEAN. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there when you talked with Pierce? + +Mr. DEAN. There were several people around, but they didn't hear his +instructions to me, I am sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did Pierce tell you? + +Mr. DEAN. He said for me to go to the armored car, to the rear of the +armored car, and to get him two men to go with him, and he said, "Now." +Sergeant Putnam was maybe 15 or 20 feet from me, and I instructed him +to get an unassigned man immediately and to go with Lieutenant Pierce, +and Lieutenant Pierce, by this time, of course, he was going to get his +car, or walking over to his car. Sergeant Putnam got--told Sergeant +Maxey to go with him, and those three got into Lieutenant Pierce's car +with Lieutenant Pierce driving, and I went to the rear of the armored +car that had backed in, which was some, I guess 30 feet, 30 to 35 +feet from where the shooting was. This armored car backed down, and I +imagine it would probably be around 30 to 35 feet. As soon as I got to +the armored car I turned around and looked back, and this is when I +saw Lieutenant Pierce in this plain black car trying to get past the +newsmen and to go out the wrong way. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. DEAN. Right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is my understanding correct that from the time that +you placed your guards in the basement and then began the search, until +Pierce's car drove up the ramp, you did not leave the basement area? + +Mr. DEAN. That's right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you saw Pierce's car go out of the--move out of +the garage area, who was in that car? + +Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Maxey and Sergeant Putnam, Lieutenant Pierce was +driving it. I do recall that Sergeant Putnam had to get out of the car +and tell some people to move out of the way so they could drive out. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did he get out of the car? + +Mr. DEAN. Just as they were turning from the basement to go up the +ramp, about this location [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him get back in the car? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him get back in the car? + +Mr. DEAN. Same place. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. So when he drove through this next line of newsmen, when +the car went through this next line of newsmen, is it your recollection +that Sergeant Putnam was back in the car, or did he follow the car up +ahead and clear these others? + +Mr. DEAN. I believe he walked on up for a few steps, not too far, and +then when he did see that the way was clear he got into the car then, +but he did get out of the car to clear the way for the car to move out +of the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, did you watch him go out of the ramp up there? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see what he did when he got to the top of the +ramp? + +Mr. DEAN. I couldn't see to the top of the ramp. It's obscured, from +where I was. I was halfway up this ramp and I couldn't see to the top +of the ramp. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch him, though, go up until you lost sight of +him? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were looking toward +Putnam's car, were you able to see the people behind the car in this +particular--across the Main Street ramp? + +Mr. DEAN. Just as a group. I mean as a group of people. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that group that you recognized? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any police officers that you recognized there, +other than Putnam? + +Mr. DEAN. None that I paid any attention to. I mean if I had noticed +them I could have probably seen someone that I recognized. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, of course, you have known Jack Ruby for 4 or 5 +years? + +Mr. DEAN. I have known Jack Ruby since, I believe 19--the early part of +1960 or the early part of 1961. It was the time that I came downtown +from Oak Cliff, as a sergeant. I met him. Now, the record, or your +report from the FBI says that I had known him since 1959, which is +erroneous. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. We will do that at the end of the deposition, +because I want to get that straightened out. + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew Ruby well enough so that you would recognize +him on sight? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Ruby in that area there? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you lost sight of Pierce's car going up the +ramp, what did you do? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, my attention was focused to this point, because this +was a tense time, and I was, of course, watching the exit here from the +jail office [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you watch how the security developed along +in here; what the officers did to maintain security along here +[indicating]? + +Mr. DEAN. I knew that they had just lined up. However, I didn't pay any +attention particularly to this at the time. I knew that Oswald was, in +all probability, going to be brought out pretty soon. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked toward the Main Street ramp and saw the +newsmen re-form along there, can you recall how deep this line of +newsmen was? Do you understand what I mean by how deep? + +Mr. DEAN. You mean lengthwise? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. It was probably going to about somewhere along here. They +were all trying to be within view of the----[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there just a single line along there or were there +four of five or six different lines; you know, four or five behind each +other, or how many? + +Mr. DEAN. I know there was a double line and possibly some were +standing behind them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you given any instructions prior to the time that +Rio Pierce's car went up the ramp, to any men as to how to maintain +security along this line of newsmen? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I hadn't. The majority of those, I think, were +detectives or plainclothesmen. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if anybody had responsibility for giving +instructions to that group? + +Mr. DEAN. To my knowledge, I don't know of anyone. I am sure that they +did, but I don't know who did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions from anybody concerning how +to maintain security along the path from the jail office door to the +car that Oswald would be loaded into? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at one time I know that there were several cameras +set up in this area, and Chief Batchelor told them that they would have +to leave this area and move to the basement area. I was present during +Chief Batchelor's--or when he told these TV men to move out of that +area, inside the jail office, that---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. TV cameras inside the jail office? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and lights set up. This was, I believe, before the +search or shortly after the search. I am thinking it was shortly after +the search, that these men were told to move out of this area and move +their cameras and equipment out into the garage portion of the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, sergeant, did there come a time when you learned that +the route was being changed? + +Mr. DEAN. The route to the sheriff's office? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. This was--I believe I received both of those instructions +when I assigned those men. I had already assigned--well, I do know that +I had already assigned all these men along this traffic route, and then +it had been changed. Captain Talbert said, "No; they are not going to +use Main Street--or Elm Street. They are going to use Main," I believe. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn this after you had already sent the men out? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything that makes you sure about that? + +Mr. DEAN. Because I reassigned them, at the same time I briefed them, +and made these other assignments. I learned that the route had been +changed, and I reassigned them, at the same time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you assign a man to the corner of Main and Pearl +Expressway? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes; I know that I did, but I can't recall who it was. I have +that information in my locker, my original assignments. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a lot of notes in your locker, or you +have some notes? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; at a later time I will bring those to you, if you +like. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I would very much appreciate it. Do you want to make a +note of that? If you send them over to us tomorrow, I would appreciate +that very much. + +Mr. DEAN. Tomorrow? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and we don't need the originals if you want to---- + +Mr. DEAN. No; you can have them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you saw Pierce's car +go up the ramp? + +Mr. DEAN. I stood at the rear of the armored car and watched--my +attention was focused to this point here, to the exit from the jail +office, or the corridor here. I noticed that these two plain cars had +pulled up behind, or in my same direction, and I assumed that these two +cars would be loaded with officers that would follow the armored car. +However, they hadn't loaded. They were pulling into position here and +had gotten into position when all the confusion started [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt your train of thought here. In looking at +this map, it occurs to me that we don't have Nelson marked on this map +[indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. Nelson is here [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, okay; now, do you know if Brock was pulled off this +station at anytime prior to the shooting of Oswald? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; he was told to stay there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't know of your own knowledge---- + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Whether he was there at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, as the two police cars moved into position +on the Commerce Street ramp behind the armored car, what happened, what +did you see happen and what did you do? + +Mr. DEAN. I heard someone say, "Here he comes, they are bringing him +out." Of course, you could hear voices, loud voices, or excitement, +and then I saw a man just dart in--this was during all the confusion, +before the shooting, but I do recall seeing a man dart out. I couldn't +tell who he was. It was that fast [witness snaps fingers]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he seem to dart from? + +Mr. DEAN. From the rail over here. The side--just dart out from a +group of people that were standing against the rail facing the exit +[indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you mark there with an "X" and a circle +around it, approximately where he was and how close he was to this +railing? Do you think he was right on the railing or [indicating]---- + +Mr. DEAN. Well, the railing--you have a curb there and then I don't +recall how wide that curb is, but the railing, you can lean against +standing on the ramp itself [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; how far would you say he was from that railing? + +Mr. DEAN. I would say he was up against the railing. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is that the man that shot Oswald? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a circle and an "X" down there and write +Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where was "Blackie" Harrison standing? + +Mr. DEAN. I didn't recognize--or didn't notice "Blackie" Harrison. I do +recall now and I know where he was standing, next to him, from films I +have seen since then. However, I didn't even know he was there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as I understand from your statement, and interrupt +me if I am incorrect, when you saw Ruby shoot Oswald, you moved toward +the struggle and then Ruby was taken into the jail office, and did you +follow them on in? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I ran immediately, jumped over these cars, or one +of them, jumped over the hood of it, over the top of it, and they were +dragging--Ruby and several detectives that were subduing him were about +at the door, or [indicating]---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I had just as soon not have you mark at this point. + +Mr. DEAN. Okay. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand why you want to, but---- + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear, between the time that you saw Ruby move +toward Oswald and the time that you reached him, did you hear anything +said? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you reached Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I ran to assist, whatever I could do, or assist the +officers, not knowing exactly what had happened--or I knew that there +had been a shooting. However, they had enough men that were subduing +him, and I asked the question, when they had him on the floor inside +the jail office, "Who in the world is it?" And---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Couldn't you tell by looking at him? + +Mr. DEAN. No; at the time I couldn't see him because there were so +many over him. And they were--well, his face was hidden from me by the +amount of officers that were around him. I said, "Who in the world is +it?" And evidently I was talking loud over all the other voices, and +evidently Ruby heard me and said, "I am Jack Ruby. You all know me." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with Jack Ruby there in the +jail office? + +Mr. DEAN. I immediately walked around to where Oswald was laying. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain there where Oswald was? + +Mr. DEAN. Oh, maybe--less than a minute. I saw that the doctor--there +was an emergency doctor working on him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from there? + +Mr. DEAN. I went back out to the basement, out to where the shooting +happened. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do out there? + +Mr. DEAN. I was trying to keep all the people in. I heard Captain +Talbert say, "Don't let anyone out." And I was echoing his instructions +to the men on the ramp, to not let anyone in or out, no one. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time while you were down there in +the basement that you were interviewed by TV men? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; that was after I had--just some few minutes, I +don't know, that several newsmen had--or did interview me, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which TV station that was? + +Mr. DEAN. Tom Pettit is with NBC, I believe. I did know one of the +local men, Bob Huffaker. He is with KRLD-TV. But there were several. I +don't know---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there was also a time, undoubtedly, that +you were interviewed, or somebody quoted you in the newspapers, and +there was a great to-do about this, as I understand, in the police +department. Somebody claimed---- + +Mr. DEAN. Misquoted me, yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that at this particular TV interview; was that +when you made the statement? + +Mr. DEAN. The newspaper article that appeared, the news or the writer +of that story told me that he wrote that story from my initial +interview that was given shortly after the shooting, yes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall talking with that man down there? + +Mr. DEAN. The man that wrote the---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I wouldn't know him by sight now. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever seeing that man? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had this TV interview, what did you do? + +Mr. DEAN. I went to the third floor. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go on the third floor? + +Mr. DEAN. Just as I got off of the elevator Chief Curry approached me, +along with another man. He introduced him very quickly as Forrest V. +Sorrels, with the Secret Service, or head of the Secret Service here in +Dallas, gave me his keys to the outer door that has--or access to the +jail elevator, told me to take Mr. Sorrels to the fifth floor to talk +to Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you left the jail office---- + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went into the basement area and had the TV +interview and then went up to the third floor, did you talk with any of +the police officers who had been down there in the basement area? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in the jail office, before you came out, +did you talk to any of the officers who were there, who were in the +jail office; did you talk with them? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why were you going up to the third floor? + +Mr. DEAN. I was going to Captain Fritz' office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you going to do up there? + +Mr. DEAN. I was just going to see if Jack Ruby was in Captain Fritz' +office, or whether he was taken immediately to the jail. I didn't know +where he was taken to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you want to go up to see Jack Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. To see if they were--this was in my mind, to see if they were +going to go ahead and identify him, because I knew other pressmen and +other people were going to be asking me, since I had this interview, +and see if--did he want me to go ahead and identify him or do what I +did in the initial interview, say that this information will have to +come from Captain Fritz' office. It really wasn't significant. I knew +that I would be talked to at later times all during the day and pressed +for the identity of this man, and I wanted to ask them there did they +want us to release it or want them to keep it and release it themselves. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already told the newsmen? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I had already told the newsmen this. I didn't +identify the man. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already told the newsmen that the man who shot +Oswald was Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I didn't. I didn't identify the man. They asked me +did I recognize this man. I said "Yes." And they asked me could I tell +them who he was, and I said I had rather not, and I did not identify +him as Ruby. I identified him as a businessman in the city of Dallas, +but I did tell them that I recognized the man by sight. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got up on the third floor, where did you see +Chief Curry? + +Mr. DEAN. Just as I got off of the elevator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ask him to discuss this problem with you? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. He immediately introduced--said, "This is Mr. +Forrest V. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service in Dallas, and take my +keys and take him to the fifth floor to interview Ruby." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You got up to the fifth floor, who was with Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. Detective Archer, D. R. Archer, Detective T. D. McMillon and +Detective B. S. Clardy is the three, and that's the only three I can +recall standing there. I think that was all that was with him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a jailer there? + +Mr. DEAN. Not standing there necessarily by him. There, of course, are +jailers all over the floor, and you know, there were--not particularly +around him though. The only ones I can recall standing close to Ruby +was those three detectives. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What state of dress or undress was Ruby in at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. He was stripped to his shorts. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got up there? + +Mr. DEAN. I walked immediately to him. I heard--well, immediately +I told him, I said, "This is Mr. Forrest V. Sorrels"--started the +introduction, and Ruby stopped me and he said, "I know who he is. He is +with the FBI." Mr. Sorrels then informed him. He said, "No. I am not +with the FBI. I am with the Secret Service." And then he again told +him, "I want you to know that I am not with the FBI. I am with the +Secret Service." And so Ruby said something to the effect, "Well, I +knew that you were working for the Government." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby making any remark to Sorrels to the +effect, "Are you with the newspapermen"? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I recall most all of that conversation. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what that conversation was. + +Mr. DEAN. After Sorrels had identified himself as a Secret Service man, +he said, "I want to ask you some questions." And then Ruby asked him, +"Is this for the magazines or press?" And he said, "No. It's for my +information, as an agent." And he said, "Okay. I will answer all your +questions." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with him, anything Sorrels +said about his acquaintanceship in the Jewish community? + +Mr. DEAN. Sorrels asked him first, I believe---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No. I am not making myself clear. I am sorry. Did Sorrels +say anything to Ruby about Sorrels' acquaintanceship among the Jewish +merchants, that you recall? + +Mr. DEAN. No. I don't--seems like he said something, that he had--that +he knew some Jewish--I don't recall exactly what, but relative to what +you are asking, he did say something about he was acquainted with some +person that was a Jew, something to that effect. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with the name of a guy named Honest Joe? + +Mr. DEAN. Right. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you remember about that. + +Mr. DEAN. Well, he said, "Well, I know Honest Joe or"--In other words, +the only thing that I got out of that was that he knew Honest Joe. This +wasn't relative to what I wanted to find out from Ruby, and I just +disregarded this from my mind. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did this take place inside the jail cell? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. He was in the hallway or the corridor outside a jail +cell. He hadn't been placed in a cell. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And were Archer, Clardy, and McMillon around during this +conversation? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. I think they stood there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long would you say that Sorrels talked with Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. Oh, 10 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember anything that Sorrels learned from +Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what that was? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes. He asked him what possessed him to do it. Of course, +I have testified to all this in court. And he said that he was--had +been despondent over the assassination of the President, also Officer +Tippit, and that he was a very emotional man, and that out of grief for +both these people, was one of the motivations, and that he couldn't see +any reason for a long and lengthy trial, even though he believed in due +process of law. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk with Sorrels at all at that time about how he +got into the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. I asked him--Sorrels didn't ask any questions +relative to that. I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Sorrels finished talking with Ruby did you +ask that question? + +Mr. DEAN. Immediately. After Mr. Sorrels said, "Okay. Thank you." And I +don't recall whether Mr. Sorrels stayed there or whether he walked off. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present when you asked Ruby that question? + +Mr. DEAN. I think McMillon and them were still there. I just really +didn't--I knew that I wasn't by myself with him. I knew that there was +someone there and I believe it was McMillon and Archer that had stayed +there. I am not sure. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you talk with Ruby about, after Sorrels +finished talking to him? + +Mr. DEAN. After Sorrels finished, I said, "Ruby, I want to ask you a +couple of questions myself." And he said, "All right." I said, "How did +you get in the basement?" And he said, "I walked in the Main Street +ramp." And he told me, he said, "I have just been to the Western Union +to mail a money order to Fort Worth." And he said, "I walked from the +Western Union to the ramp." And he said, "I saw Sam Pierce--" and he +referred to him as Sam Pierce--"drive out of the basement. At that +time, at the time the car drove out is when I walked in." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a Sam Pierce on the force? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. He is a lieutenant. He is here tonight. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. His name is also Rio Pierce? + +Mr. DEAN. Lt. Rio S. Pierce, yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he go by the name Sam? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he also go by the name Rio? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is one used---- + +Mr. DEAN. Just as much as the other. Depends on who met him under which +name. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what else did he talk to you about at that +particular time? + +Mr. DEAN. After he answered that question, I said, "How long had you +been in the basement when Oswald came into your view?" And he said, "I +just walked in. I just walked to the bottom of the ramp when he came +out." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you talk to him about at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. That's all. I heard all of Sorrels' questions and I heard all +of Ruby's answers. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as the questioning of Sorrels is concerned, +did you testify to that at the Ruby trial? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you finished this conversation with Ruby about +how he got down into the basement, what did you do? + +Mr. DEAN. Caught the elevator back down to the basement and got my gun +that had been taken there by a patrolman. If I am not mistaken, I rode +down on the same elevator with Mr. Sorrels, and then I went back up to +the third floor to Chief Curry's office and took him his keys that he +had given me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the keys to? + +Mr. DEAN. They were--well, it was a keyring with a lot of keys on it, +but he had given me these to gain entrance to the door that's always +locked on the third floor of the jail elevator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And then how long did you stay down there with Chief Curry? + +Mr. DEAN. Just long enough to give him his keys. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go after that? + +Mr. DEAN. [No response.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go back to homicide? + +Mr. DEAN. No; I didn't go back to homicide. I don't remember whether +I went back to the basement--I believe that I did, went back to the +basement to see how things were down there. And, of course, a great +number of people had left the basement, and I assume were en route or +were going to the Parkland Hospital to check on--since the focal point +had gone to Parkland Hospital, I assumed that's where all these people +had gone. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell Chief Curry what Ruby had told you? + +Mr. DEAN. At that time; no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do, now, after you went down to the first +floor, the basement, you say; what did you do then? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't remember exactly what I did. I did go to +Parkland Hospital and I got there before Oswald was pronounced dead, +which I think was at 1:07, wasn't it? Somewhere around 1 o'clock? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. Yes; anyhow, I stayed at Parkland Hospital and---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see out at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I talked to Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, and in fact, +I had taken her along with some--I assumed some Secret Service men, I +assumed they were Secret Service men that were with her when I started +talking to her. I went in with her into view the body, her and Marina +Oswald, to view the body of Lee. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did somebody assign you to go out to Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go out there? + +Mr. DEAN. To check on the condition of Oswald. I knew that--well, it +was just reaction for me to go out there, because I knew that I would +probably be needed out there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you check in with Captain Talbert before you went out? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I did check out with the dispatcher on the radio, +that I was en route to Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lieutenant Pierce, did you check out with him? + +Mr. DEAN. I think when I got to Parkland Hospital I called him and +advised him that I would be at Parkland until I notified him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got out to Parkland Hospital and before you saw +Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, did you talk with any police officers? + +Mr. DEAN. At Parkland? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I am sure that I talked to some. Nothing specific or no +orders given, no assignments or anything. I was, more than anything, +I was answering questions as to what happened in the basement, from +everyone, even policemen and everyone else. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you tell them about the conversation you had with +Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not? + +Mr. DEAN. I just didn't tell anyone about it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you find Marguerite Oswald? + +Mr. DEAN. She was waiting in a room just out of the emergency room +there. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what Secret Service agents were with her +at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wait with Marguerite in that room with the Secret +Service agents? + +Mr. DEAN. No. That's--shortly after I went in to where Marguerite and +Marina were, Marguerite wanted to see the body, and they tried to +explain to her that they really hadn't gotten him in shape to view yet. +He just came out of the operating room, and she said, well, she wanted +to see him then, and she more or less was directing her statements and +demands to me, since I was the only uniformed officer there, and said +that she would like to go in and see him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to go to Marguerite? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I was just standing outside the door there where they +said he was, and someone had pointed her out, and said that's the +mother and the wife. No particular reason. But I did, after she asked +to go in and see him, they said--the doctor said it would be all right +for them, and I did go in with them, when they went in to view the +body. During the time that we were in this room where Oswald's body was +Mrs. Oswald, the mother, turned to me and said that at this time she +wanted to make a statement to me in regard to the allegations against +her son, that she could--something to the effect that she could prove +that they were wrong, and about this time she was interrupted by one +of the nurses telling me that I was wanted on the phone. So I left and +didn't see---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had called you at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. Lieutenant Pierce. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he? + +Mr. DEAN. He was at central headquarters. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he have to say? + +Mr. DEAN. He asked me how long I thought I was going to be there and +I said, well, I was leaving now. And then I left and came back to the +city hall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked to Pierce on the telephone, did you +tell him about your conversation with Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you drove out to Parkland Hospital, did you drive out +alone? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When you drove back, did you drive back with anybody? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; by myself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got back to central police +headquarters? + +Mr. DEAN. I went to our office on the second floor, the patrol +captain's office. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And who was there? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't recall exactly. I know this was again getting +close to the change time. It was somewhere around 2 o'clock, and the +secretary told me that I had several phone calls waiting on me, and +one of--well, there were some long distance calls that had seen me on +television, and I didn't answer all of them. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Any phone calls from anybody you knew? + +Mr. DEAN. No; my wife had called. I mean there had just been a lot of +people calling. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you make any phone calls when you got that +message that you had calls? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; at the time, about--the only phone call that I had +taken was the dispatcher called and--just about the time I walked +in, and said that I had a long distance call from--oh, Chicago or +somewhere, and they transferred it down there, and, of course, they +were asking who this man was, how did he get in, questions that +newsmen--it was from some radio station. I didn't---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago. And did you tell them? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do after that long distance telephone +call from Chicago? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, there was newsmen from KLIF came into the office, asked +would I give him a short interview, which I did. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were those people? + +Mr. DEAN. This man, it was Glen Duncan. I didn't know him before. I +hadn't seen him before. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you remember with him? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; he was by himself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that a tape-recorded interview? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; station KLIF. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did that interview last? + +Mr. DEAN. Gosh, I don't know. Maybe 4 or 5 minutes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever get a copy of that interview from them? + +Mr. DEAN. He sent me one, and it's at home somewhere. It didn't play on +my recorder and I didn't even try to play it since then. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you supply that to the Commission? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would make a note of that, I would appreciate it. + +Mr. DEAN. Any particular speed that you want this? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. No; and incidentally, if you would like it transcribed at +a speed that will play on your recorder, I am sure we would be happy to +do that for you, and just exchange tapes, since we are taking a tape +from you, we will give it back to you at a speed you can play. + +Mr. DEAN. Okay; all right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did this KLIF interview take place? + +Mr. DEAN. It was on the second floor there in the small room that was +unoccupied at the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that interview? + +Mr. DEAN. I stayed around the office. I don't remember anything +particularly that I did do. Again, answering questions of people coming +on. I think that some men had been called in from off duty to report +for duty. Gosh, I don't even remember what time I got off from work +that day. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay around the office all the rest of the time +that you were there, that you were on duty? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I would imagine that I went back to the basement. Let +me think. The rest of the time I didn't do anything in particular. I +mean any specific assignment that I can recall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you seem to have some idea that you went back to the +basement? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, the reason I think that I did, I had been away from +there about an hour and a half, and I just wanted to go back. I am sure +that I went back down there just to check on the situation and the +confusion that might have been in the basement, to see if possibly I +would have to notify the on-coming platoon how many men they might need +to stay around the city hall, quell this confusion. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go back up to the third floor at all? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. The rest of that day? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I don't think so. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any officers from the homicide bureau at +all, that day, the rest of that day? + +Mr. DEAN. Not that I recall; no, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with any police officers that day, about how +Ruby got into the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; now, you are bringing something back. I know now +what I did immediately--we will have to go back on the record. When I +got back to the city hall, I contacted Lieutenant Pierce and advised +him--that's when I talked to Pierce about my conversation with Ruby, +and I told him that I had talked to Ruby and that he told me that--how +he had gotten into the basement, which was breaking security, and that +Officer R. E. Vaughn was the man involved. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby told you--or you told him---- + +Mr. DEAN. I told Lieutenant Pierce that Ruby had told me he had came in +through the Main Street ramp, at which Officer Vaughn was posted. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you and Pierce do? + +Mr. DEAN. He notified the captain of this. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Talbert? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Talbert come in? Were you present when Pierce +notified Talbert? + +Mr. DEAN. I was present when--I do know that they called Vaughn in, but +I think that he had already gone home that day, and that he was off the +next day, and I think they called him to tell him to come, to report to +the office this next morning, to investigate whether he did let Ruby in +or how he got in, or why he said he came in through his post. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't talk with Vaughn the rest of the day? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And to your knowledge Pierce didn't talk with him the rest +of that day? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Talbert? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what else was done that day, as you recall, as a +result of your telling Pierce about the conversation with Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. I am sure that--I don't know. I am thinking that Captain +Talbert called Chief Fisher, notified him of it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. What's your best estimate of what time of the day that +would have been, that you talked with Pierce? + +Mr. DEAN. It was that afternoon, I believe, after I had gotten back +from the hospital. I didn't remember it a while ago, but I think when +I did get back from the hospital, that's when I told Lieutenant Pierce +about it, somewhere around 2:30 or 3. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any kind of record that you would have +maintained, or the police department would have maintained, that would +give us some better way of fixing that time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; not that I know of. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Dispatchers? Did you call the dispatcher to tell them you +were coming back? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; now, it was about 2 when I was talking--or had taken +Mrs. Oswald in to view Lee, and I left then, somewhere around 2. So +I got back to the station, maybe around 2:25 or 2:30, so when I told +Lieutenant Pierce about it, it should have been somewhere around, maybe +3, or the first time I saw him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you, after coming back and talking with Pierce, +make any further efforts or make any effort to talk with people who +you had assigned in the basement, or who you knew were working in the +basement, concerning the security of the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I did ask Nelson could he say for sure that this +man didn't come through his post, and he said he could say for sure +that he didn't come through the police and court building, Nelson's +post. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did you talk with Nelson? + +Mr. DEAN. This was, I am sure, when I got back--probably when I got +back from the hospital. I don't recall. It might have been before I +went. This was my main thought, as to how the man got into the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Vaughn at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I asked him, just as I asked the others, had this +man come through, because I knew the focal point was going to be on +Vaughn, and I knew the investigation was going to be on Vaughn. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Vaughn that afternoon? + +Mr. DEAN. It seems that Lieutenant Pierce and I talked to him, and I +think Captain Talbert was there. It was up on the second floor. It +seems that we did talk to him that day, asked him did he have any +knowledge of how he got into the basement. Captain Talbert was doing +most of the questioning. I told Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert +what Ruby had told me, and from this he was questioning Vaughn. + +Now, I think this was in the afternoon and Vaughn was scheduled to be +off the next day, and Captain Talbert told him he better come on into +work the next day, for the purpose, I assumed, of more investigation. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nelson, when was Nelson talked to? + +Mr. DEAN. Well now. I talked to Nelson myself. I don't know. I am sure +that somebody else did too, but I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Vaughn? + +Mr. DEAN. I don't remember. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did that conversation with Nelson take place? + +Mr. DEAN. He was still on his post when I talked to him. Of course, +this--whether it was before I went to the hospital or--I am sure that +it probably was before I went to the hospital, that I asked Nelson +could he say for certain that this man hadn't come by him, and he +said yes. And then I asked Patterson, all of them; Patterson, Nelson, +Vaughn, stated the man did not come by their post, but I--the focal +would be on Vaughn, since I had been told that that's where Ruby came +in, by Ruby himself. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now. Nelson gave a statement---- + +VOICE. Excuse me. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Nelson was interviewed by the Bureau--Federal Bureau of +Investigation on December 4, and the Bureau indicates that he told +them, and this is the Bureau's language and not his, talking about +his post, he said the other officer assigned there with him was a +reserve officer whose name he does not know. He was there for just 3 +or 4 minutes, when Sergeant Putnam told them to station themselves +just behind the first jail office window, for people were coming in, +in regard to jail office business, such as seeing prisoners. They were +instructed not to let any unauthorized persons through the door or ramp +leading into the basement. + +Okay, when I read that I was mistaken as to where I thought he was +standing, so that I was under the impression he was pulled off of his +post, but that would be entirely consistent. Apparently all they did +was to move him a few feet. Well, the jail office window, you have +three here. One, two, and three windows--so [indicating]. Well now, did +you talk with Bobby Patterson at all? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; I asked him could he say for sure that this man +didn't come in his post. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you talk with him? + +Mr. DEAN. Some time before I went to the hospital. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with a reserve officer by the name of Newman? + +Mr. DEAN. I don't recall the name. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with this reserve officer who was stationed +over in this area here, as you have indicated on the map [indicating]? + +Mr. DEAN. I asked Sergeant Putnam--in fact, we had talked during the +day about this man, whether to keep him or not, and I said definitely +keep him there, tell him to remain there. Now, I don't recall talking +to this man specifically about seeing if anyone had come through here. +I was fairly certain that they hadn't. The main thing I was thinking +about was that Ruby told me he came in here. I had no reason to doubt +him, but I didn't know how he had gotten in, other than what he had +said, just walking down, and I knew that this was putting R. E. Vaughn +in dereliction of his duty. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now; it's my understanding you talked with Patterson +before you went to Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you talked with Vaughn and Nelson after you went to +Parkland? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I probably asked all of them the question, "Did you see +this man come in here; do you know him?" And, of course, Vaughn said +he knew him. Patterson said he knew him. I don't recall whether Nelson +said he knew him or not, but that Patterson and Vaughn both stated, and +along with Nelson, that he did not come through their post. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with any of the other men who were +stationed down there in the basement? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; these were the men that I assigned and gave my +instructions, and those were the ones that I could talk to. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, on November 24, talking at all with +"Blackie" Harrison? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. About this? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. D. Miller? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about McMillon? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw McMillon and, as I understand---- + +Mr. DEAN. He was with Jack Ruby when we interviewed him up in the jail. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. And he asked no questions. I am sure that he stood there and +listened, as an interested party, or---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Bob Lowery? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I didn't talk to him. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you had passed this information on to Pierce, +as I recall, you said that you thought you might have talked with +Vaughn some time that afternoon? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else you did that afternoon +besides possibly talking with Vaughn? + +Mr. DEAN. Not anything else particularly, other than asking Nelson and +Patterson, along with Vaughn, separately, rather, or individually, that +I did ask them did this man come by them, and they said no. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. By the time you left work that day, had any instructions +been given with respect to preparing reports as to what happened? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this was the next morning. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you file a report at the end of the day? + +Mr. DEAN. At the end of the day? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any notes that particular day, on the 24th? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; my assignments. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And other than your assignments, did you make any other +notes? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you keep those in a regular assignment book? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; just a small notebook that I had. I always--when I +deal with a group of men, rather than try to remember where I put them, +I always write it down. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you made any notes about the +events, or wrote a report about the events of the 24th? + +Mr. DEAN. November the--I think probably I wrote this report on the +25th, which was the next day, but it's headed November the 26th, but I +imagine that's the time the typist got to it. She was doing a lot of +typing from then on, but I think the next morning is when I wrote this +report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have the original notes that you made, that +you used to write that report up? + +Mr. DEAN. This report; yes, sir. This is the one that I will supply to +you. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Good. When was the next time that you saw Jack Ruby, after +your interview or session with him up there? + +Mr. DEAN. The next time I saw him? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. In the courtroom during the trial. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I have marked for +identification as Exhibit 5008, which is marked "Dallas, Texas, +Sergeant Dean, March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5008." This is actually stapled +to Exhibit 5007, but Exhibit 5008 is the report of the interview that +you had with FBI Agents Paul L. Scott and Edmond C. Hardin, on December +2, 1963, in Dallas. Will you look at that, Sergeant Dean, and tell me +if you had a chance to read that over? Let me ask you first of all, if +you have had a chance to read it over? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; last night. There are some corrections +[indicating]---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state to us what you think should be corrected in +that statement? + +Mr. DEAN. On page 1, the last paragraph, I don't know whether it's too +important. It says, "Dean recalled that before starting the search +of the basement he assigned Officer B. G. Patterson to stand at the +Commerce Street ramp leading to the basement." Now, this is actually +the exit from the basement, if that means anything. The way it reads +here it sounds like that's the entrance. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take my pen and change that. You might make +it read, "which is the exit"---- + +Mr. DEAN. Exit from the basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and if you would, just out in the margin, put your +initials and the date. + +Mr. DEAN. Page 2, paragraph 4, same error, Commerce Street ramp leading +into the basement [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. + +Mr. DEAN. I will mark it "exit". Page 4, paragraph 3--off the record. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; all right; that's all right. + +Mr. DEAN. It says, "Dean has known Jack Ruby since 1959." This is +erroneous. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How should it read? + +Mr. DEAN. It should be either 1960 or 1961, whatever date--I could find +out and let you know for sure, the time that I came downtown from the +Oak Cliff area, as a sergeant. I was assigned to the downtown area, +which includes the location of Carousel Club. I have been downtown some +4 or 5 months before I was assigned to this location. So I would say +it would have been about 4 or 5 months after I was transferred to the +downtown area that I met Jack Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you assigned to that downtown area? + +Mr. DEAN. About a year and a half. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you a sergeant at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any men working under your direction? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men worked under your direction down there? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, it would vary from the hours that I worked, from 12 to +17 or 17 men, depending on the hours. Twelve regular men, or 13 regular +men. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Vaughn under your direction at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. Vaughn has never worked for me directly. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nelson? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Bobby Patterson? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. Patterson worked for me when I was assigned to the +area in the 100, district 100, in the downtown area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that the area that Jack Ruby's nightclub was in? + +Mr. DEAN. Patterson occasionally worked on the district that Ruby's +Carousel Club was on. Not as a regular man. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Patterson was friendly with Ruby? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don't know? + +Mr. DEAN. I don't know. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you consider yourself a friend of Patterson's? + +Mr. DEAN. Not intimately; no, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see Patterson on a social basis? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Patterson still work under your direction? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose direction is he under now? + +Mr. DEAN. Sergeant Jennings, W. G. Jennings. He is still assigned to +that area. Not the specific district that the Carousel was on, or has +been on, but let's see--I don't recall exactly what district he is +assigned to; 103 I believe. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if there is anything else. Incidentally, on this +date, have we turned the page on that? The date there, why don't you +make a correction as to what you think it is, and if you feel, when you +check your notes, that you want to correct it even more exactly, why +you can be free to do it [indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. I would like to clarify this one thing. "On occasions when +driving in the area with another officer, he would go up to the +Carousel, usually once or twice a week." This is true, as far as once +or twice a week, and sometimes three times a week. However, this--with +another officer is erroneous. Usually it would be with some friend of +mine that would be riding with me, rather than another officer. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Why don't you put that down? + +Mr. DEAN. Mutual friend or---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be somebody that would be interested in sort of +riding with the police officer, like newspaper reporters do? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. "In addition, Dean said he had gone to the club +while off duty on four occasions." I would say four would be the +outside, but I think I have been there only three times since I have +known him, since 1960 or 1961 [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you change that, then. When is the time you were +there most recently? + +Mr. DEAN. The last time I had been in his place was--well, we will say +relative to the shooting, I haven't been in there since, and I think 6 +or 8 months before would be the last time I had been in there, and in +fact, that long since I had seen Ruby. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of Ruby's employees? + +Mr. DEAN. By name. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you knew them to talk to? + +Mr. DEAN. To speak only. The people that were in the trial, well, +George Senator, I didn't know his name. I couldn't place it--knew the +face but I didn't know his name until the trial, and he was a bartender +regularly at the club. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he the bartender there on a regular basis in 1960 +or 1961? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. He was a regular there all the time that I worked +there, or worked in that area. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else did you recognize at the trial whom you remember +from the Carousel Club? + +Mr. DEAN. I don't believe I recognized anyone, other than this fellow +George Senator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a Negro man named Andy Armstrong that testified +at the trial? + +Mr. DEAN. I don't know. I don't know Andy Armstrong. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. He is one of Ruby's workers there. + +Okay. Anything else in there that [indicating]---- + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I would like for the record to show that my visits +while off duty to the Carousel was definitely an exception rather +than rule, and it would usually be when out-of-town people would come +to town, and this, by my working in that area, had gone in there +frequently on duty, I knew--or there had never been any trouble in +there, to my knowledge, as far as fights and such as that. I knew it +was a safe place for an off-duty officer to go, and interesting to +someone that hadn't seen it. So this is the exception that I went +there. I recall now, by reading this investigation by the FBI, that +soon after I had left the basement after this shooting, or left the +immediate area where Oswald was laying, I do recall now asking R. C. +Nelson, that was stationed at that doorway, had he come in that way, +and he then stated he was positive he hadn't. This was reflected in +this--I do remember. I wanted it to show that I do remember now, after +reading that. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me stop you here, Sergeant. + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me direct your attention to one portion of that +report. Have you read that portion of the report which deals with this +lengthy discussion that you and I had about the talk, the one talk you +had with Ruby on the date that Ruby shot Oswald; have you read that +portion of the report? + +Mr. DEAN. In the FBI report? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. Let's see. I don't recall reading it. You mean now have I +read it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Have you just read it? + +Mr. DEAN. No; I haven't read it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you find that, or I can maybe find it for you +quicker, but would you find that portion in there and would you read +that and tell me if that reports everything that you learned from Ruby +at that time? + +Mr. DEAN. If it's included in this report [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And I don't have simply reference to the discussion +about entering the basement, but if it reports everything of importance +that he told you during that interview? + +Mr. DEAN. I believe that this February 18 report would--the FBI report +doesn't include--it has the questions that I asked of Ruby and not of +Sorrels, if that's what you mean, it does. But this February 18 report +is what [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you, then, what I have marked for +identification as Exhibit 5010. It's a copy of a letter signed by you, +dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police. +Did you prepare that letter? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes; I did [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me ask you this, is that a true and accurate copy +of the actual original letter that you sent? + +Mr. DEAN. That's a copy I made myself, a Xerox copy [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write that letter on the basis of any notes? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; from memory. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare any prior reports to the police +department or anybody else, in connection with the events that are +recounted in that February 18th letter, other than the letter dated +November 26, to Chief Curry, which I have marked Exhibit 5009, and this +interview report, which we have designated 5008; are there any other +writings that you prepared prior to February 18? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; there is one report that I had written regarding +the article in the newspaper, that I had seen Ruby come into the +basement. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. + +Mr. DEAN. Do you have that? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if I have got that or not. Could you get us a +copy of that? I don't know if we have that or not. + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; now, I think the FBI made several--or made a report +of that, also. The investigation about the department there, I don't +know---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I know they made an investigation of it, and I don't +have the actual copy of the report. I have got the results of their +investigation but not the report. + +Mr. DEAN. I see. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Other than that report on the newspaper article +and these two other exhibits that I have referred to, are there any +other writings that you made that relate to the subject matters as +recounted in this February 18---- + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Letter. Now, how did you come to write this letter of +February 18, 1964? + +Mr. DEAN. Chief Stevenson called me, while I was in the office on that +date, and asked me to come up to see him, and I did. And he asked me +was I present during the entire interview with Ruby and Mr. Sorrels. I +told him I was. And he asked me did I remember most of the interview; +could I recollect most of the interview and the answers that Ruby had +given and I said, "Yes, sir." Then he advised me to make a report of +it, asked me would I make a report of it, recalling everything that +I could of that interview. To the best of my knowledge, that's all I +could remember. And I did testify to all this stuff in the trial. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the first time that you told anyone that Ruby had +told Sorrels that he thought about killing Oswald two nights prior when +he saw him in the showup room? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't recall telling it to any particular person. I +knew that this would probably be later used as testimony, I felt, since +it was--did make an impression on me, that I could remember it, and +it's written as I do remember, just about as it happened, it correlates +pretty well, even though we didn't get together with Mr. Sorrels' +report. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. But you can't remember? + +Mr. DEAN. Talking to anyone especially or specifically about what Ruby +had told me, other than how he got into the basement and how long he +had been there; no, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Or of any particular reference to the statement that Ruby +made to Sorrels that you have reported in here, about thinking about +killing Oswald two nights before; you can't remember that you ever---- + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I did feel at the time that I would probably testify +to this in court. I did witness Mr. Sorrels taking his notes, and I +felt if I had to, since I did witness it, I could use the notes. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think there is one other exhibit that I haven't +identified. We have talked about it, and that's Exhibit 5009, which +is a copy of a letter which purports to have been prepared by you, +addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963. + +Would you look at Exhibit 5009 [indicating]? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; that's my report [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have read that over many times, have you not? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; would you like for me to sign it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir; I would like for you to sign both 5008 and 5009. + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you wanted to make +to that? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a date by that, by your signature also, if you will +[indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me hand you 5010, and ask you to sign that and +date it [indicating]. + +Mr. DEAN. It's been signed--of course, this is a Xerox copy. Do you +want me to go ahead and sign it again? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. All right [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take this one here, Exhibit 5008, and would you +sign that and date it [indicating]? + +Mr. DEAN. Where [indicating]? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page, I think probably is just as well +[indicating]. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant, you and I have been talking here off the record +for--I don't have a watch, but I would guess for 15 or 20 minutes, +with respect to other matters, and you indicated to me just before we +brought the court reporter in, that you had obtained some information +that apparently had not been previously made available to the +Commission, and I wonder if you could tell us what that is? + +Mr. DEAN. It was relative to a telephone call that I received last +night at about 2 o'clock in the morning. I didn't mark the time. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you? + +Mr. DEAN. At city hall. In the office there. The city hall operator had +called me and told me that she had a man, or an operator on the line +from Victoria, British Columbia, in Canada, and that she had been--this +operator had told her she had been talking to a man in Victoria about +some films that he had of the assassination, and asked me did I want to +take the call, and it wasn't--it was a collect call, and the operator +said that she couldn't unless it was by my authorization, but she did +tell me she heard this man talk enough that she believed he was serious +and had something that possibly could be used by the Warren Commission. +And, of course, I heard some of the conversation, and the man +sounded rational, and the operator in Victoria, her name was Bernice +Williamson, she is the night supervisor of the B.C. Telephone Company, +said that she had talked to this man long enough that she thought he +probably had something. And so I accepted the call. This man's name was +Ralph Simpson. He was calling from 384-3780, and he told me that he had +been standing on the southern part of the plaza when the assassination +took place, and he had a wide scope movie camera that he believed would +have taken in the building and the motorcade at the time the shots were +fired; that he had talked it over with his attorney--and the name of +the attorney was Batter [spelling] B-a-t-t-e-r, is what I got, and that +Batter advised him to call someone here, but not the Warren Commission. +And he asked me--when I accepted the call, he asked me what I would +suggest, and I told him that first he should mail them to the Warren +Commission. And then he asked me had I been to the Warren Commission. +He recognized my name, that I had been testifying, and I said, "Yes; +and I am scheduled to go back tomorrow night." And he said, "Well, I +will send the films to you. They haven't been--". Well, he said they +hadn't been developed, and he wasn't going to have them developed, +that he would send them to me airmail. This was about 2 o'clock in the +night--on the morning of the 24th, this morning [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have in front of you, Sergeant, a piece of +paper? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; what I took notes---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those your original notes? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I mark that for identification? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this, "Dallas. Tex., Sergeant Dean, +March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5012." Now, let me see if I understand you +correctly. This was a collect call placed from Canada to the police +department? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. By a man by the name of Simpson, Ralph Simpson? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually talk with Simpson? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the telephone call last? + +Mr. DEAN. Four minutes and three seconds, I think. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the name of the operator that put the call +through, Bernice Williamson? + +Mr. DEAN. She was the Victoria operator. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the name of the city operator? + +Mr. DEAN. The city operator was Patsy. I don't know her last name. +Patsy. She is the night operator at city hall. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate that Patsy handled that? Did Patsy +listen in on the call? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you talked with her about this since? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; she called back and gave me the time and charges on +it. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there a record of that in the police department? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you get that for us? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I would appreciate that. + +Mr. DEAN. Now, when she called me back to give me the time and charges +she said that the operator had further checked this number 384-3780, +and that number was--the call was made from the residence of the +initials R. H. W., last name [spelling] S-m-e-l-e [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had checked that, now? + +Mr. DEAN. The police department---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Patsy? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this night supervisor, Bernice Williamson in Canada, +had contacted the police department there and asked them could they +cross that number, or furnish her the address or name. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bernice Williamson tell you this after you finished +the telephone call? + +Mr. DEAN. She told Patsy, the city hall operator this, and this is---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Patsy reconveyed that to you? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And you learned this from Patsy after the conversation +with Simpson? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; this R. H. W. Smele has an address of 1141 Caldonia +in Victoria. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Have you reported this to anybody else? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate your bringing it to us then, very much. + +Would you sign that exhibit, Sergeant? + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. We will certainly look into that right away. + +Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Sergeant, we have been off the record here +awhile, and you indicated that the man said something about having been +here on vacation and some other thing. Will you tell us what else? + +Mr. DEAN. He said he had been here on vacation and that when he learned +of the President's coming, he had stationed himself on the southwestern +part of the plaza, toward the railroad tracks, and that he had a wide +scope--he referred to it as a full wide scope camera, and that he +believed that he had gotten the assassination. He was taking pictures +at the time of the assassination, and he believed that he had the +building in the background, because it's in direct trajectory of the +line of fire. My impression of him was that since he said that he had +talked it over with his attorney and didn't know what to do with these +things, that he seemed to be scared as to whether to keep them or throw +them away or what. When he told me that he would send them to me, that +he said, "You can have them. I haven't developed them, and you don't +have to send me any copies of them back." + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you notify us as soon as they receive those films? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. And turn them over to us? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. You want all the records from the city hall +operator? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Telephone call; yes. + +Mr. DEAN. This has been signed and dated [indicating]. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, I don't know if you have had a chance to read +this or not, but this is what I have marked as Exhibit 5011, which is +an interview with you by Special Agent Paul Scott of the Federal Bureau +of Investigation on December 9, 1963. Would you look that over and +then---- + +Mr. DEAN. Sign it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it and make any changes or additions that you want to +make in it. + +Mr. DEAN. [Indicating.] + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Then let me state for the record that I appreciate very +much the assistance that Sergeant Dean has given us here this evening, +and I hope, and I am sure that if anything further comes to light +which he thinks would be of value to the Commission, that he will come +forward with it voluntarily, as you have here today? + +Mr. DEAN. Burt, this--of course, I was cleared of all of this, as far +as this newspaper article---- + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. + +Mr. DEAN. I was just wondering if you had the FBI report on it? + +Mr. GRIFFIN. We do. And I just wanted to make sure that as far as any +statements are concerned, that you have made, or report, that you had a +chance to look at them, and to my knowledge, I think I have shown you +every one that we have on it. + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. That's all. + + + + +TESTIMONY OF PATRICK TREVORE DEAN RESUMED + +The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 4:45 p.m., on April +1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, +Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., +assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. P. T. Dean was +accompanied by his lawyer, Mr. Ted MacMasters. + + +Mr. HUBERT. Note that I am present. Note that Sgt. P. T. Dean is +present and Mr. Ted MacMasters assistant city attorney of Dallas, and +appearing as attorney for Mister--Sergeant Dean. Now, Sergeant Dean, +your deposition was begun on---- + +Mr. DEAN. I believe it was a Tuesday. + +Mr. MacMASTERS. March 24. + +Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burt Griffin as the member of the Commission's advisory +staff conducting the examination. At that time you took an oath, I +believe? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to consider that this is simply a +continuation of that deposition? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes; I am. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that you are under the same oath that you were before? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I wish to advise you that I have been authorized by Mr. +J. Lee Rankin, general counsel for the Commission's staff to take +your deposition under oath also. In other words, both Mr. Griffin and +I have been so authorized, and I think he advised you of the general +conditions and the right of notice and waiver and so forth? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. So that as far as I am concerned, I will just ask you if +you have anything to add to your deposition or anything to say at all +in any way? + +Mr. DEAN. I told Mr. Griffin on that date that I would bring him +additional information that he wanted. + +One was a record of the telephone call received on the 24th. Now, that +would make your interview on the 25th, actually, I believe. Now, no, +no; that's right. The morning, early morning hours of the 24th is when +I received this call from Victoria, Canada. + +That is a record of it from the city hall operator. That was pertaining +to the film from the fellow in Alaska--or--correction, in Canada that +he said he would---- + +Mr. MacMASTERS. Do you want to identify this? + +Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me two documents and I judge that one of +them is a photostatic copy of a front of a document, and the other is a +photostatic copy of the rear of that document? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Well; I am going to mark them for identification +as follows: "Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit--" We'll use +number--5136, continuation of deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean." And I am +signing my name for the purposes of identification and I am signing +the second document which you state is a photostatic copy of the back +of the document now identified as Exhibit 5136, as follows: "Dallas, +Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5136-A, continuation of Deposition of P. +T. Dean." Signing my name on the back of this, and for the purposes +of identification and to show that we are both talking about the same +document, would you mind putting your name below mine? + +Mr. DEAN. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you identify what these two documents were? +Perhaps we'd better do it again, in the light of their identification +numbers, so, let me ask you what are the documents that have now been +marked for identification as 5136 and 5136-A? + +Mr. DEAN. A record of the city hall's operator receiving a call from +Victoria, Canada, on that date of March 24, about 4 o'clock in the +morning and at that time I talked to--I believe it is Jack Simpson, or +it is Ralph Simpson, and he stated that he had a reel of movie film +that he had taken of the assassination and the trajectory of the line +of fire which was on the far side of the plaza, which would be on the +south side of Commerce Street. Mr. Simpson told me on the phone that +he believed he had gotten not only the assassination, but also the +building from where the bullet was fired. But I advised him--he wanted +to know what to do with this film, and I advised him to send it to the +Warren Commission in Washington, and he said that he had talked to his +attorney and the attorney, Batter [phonetic] in Victoria, I didn't get +the first name, his attorney had advised him to contact someone in +Dallas and to send them to whatever place they said other than to the +Warren Commission. He then asked me could he send them to me and I told +him that he could. I checked with my office then just before coming +over here today and the film hadn't come in. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he was going to send them by mail? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes; he said he would airmail them the next day. + +Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate why he had called you, or just that you +were on duty? + +Mr. DEAN. Just on the advice of his attorney. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, I mean, your particular name? + +Mr. DEAN. No; he didn't ask for me particularly. However, he said that +he recognized my name from reading of my testimony in the papers. + +Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he made the call, he was calling +specifically to you. You happened to be on duty, and therefore, the +call came to you? + +Mr. DEAN. That's right, and that is the record of the call received. +That is what Mr. Griffin wanted. + +Mr. HUBERT. And the other part that you told us about was the substance +of a phone call? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Right. Okay. Now, if you are going to talk about another +document let's get it identified first and get numbers on it. Now. +Mr. Dean, you are handing me a document consisting of three pages +being apparently a photostatic copy of a letter dated April 8, 1963, +addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police. Last page shows "P. Treavor +Dean---- + +Mr. MacMASTERS. I believe that is December 8. You said April. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, no, no. December 8. Couldn't be April 8, we aren't +there yet. + +"P. Treavor Dean, Sergeant Police Control Division," and in order that +it may be identified and that the record may show what we're talking +about, I am marking this first page in the right-hand margin, "Dallas, +Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5137, Continuation of Deposition of P. T. +Dean," signing my name below that, and the inscription on the second +page, placing my initial in the right-hand lower corner and on the +third page I am doing the same, and also ask you to sign the pages and +initial them as I have done. + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, do you have any comments to make with +reference to this Document 5137, which you have handed me? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I believe it is self-explanatory. + +Mr. HUBERT. Is this one of the documents that---- + +Mr. DEAN. Mr. Griffin asked me would I bring. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you. + +Mr. DEAN. Mr. Griffin also asked me to bring a copy, if I had one, +of my original notes that I had taken in the basement that day of my +assignments and I have those. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, what day are you speaking of? The 24th? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; November 24. + +Mr. HUBERT. November 24. + +Mr. DEAN. They are not all--all my assignments are not here. However, +the majority of them are. + +Mr. HUBERT. When you say your assignments, you mean the people you +assigned, or the job you were assigned to? + +Mr. DEAN. The people that I assigned to various locations in the +basement. + +Mr. HUBERT. I see. Now, do you propose to let me then have that or +a photostatic copy of it, or do you propose simply to dictate the +information into the record? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, how about me just dictating it and I will keep this? + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, if Mr. Griffin's purpose was to find out +whether they existed, then perhaps I ought to look at them so I can +state I have seen these things myself. + +Mr. DEAN. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, let the record show that as Mr. Dean reads the +information he is going to read, I am following him, and if he reads +them correctly, I will say nothing. If he reads them incorrectly, or in +a way that I do not understand, I will call it to his attention so that +we may get it clear. + +All right? + +Mr. DEAN. My first assignments were made just prior to our searching +the basement. They were Officer Vaughn. R. E. Vaughn I assigned to +the Main Street ramp, which is the north ramp entering the basement. +Officer Patterson, B. G. Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp, which +is the exit onto Commerce Street. These men were to be--were assigned +to the top of these ramps. Officer Brock was assigned to the elevator +in the basement. Officer Nelson was assigned in the hall at the jail +doors. Well, in--at the jail window. + +Mr. HUBERT. What is that? + +Mr. DEAN. This is "Commerce ramp". + +All right, now, Officer Jez, I assigned him with Patterson at the +Commerce Street ramp. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, these notes are not exactly like that. +You have added a few words, but let the record show that there +is--displayed to me a paper which has, in substance, all that Mr. Dean +has testified to. + +Mr. MacMASTERS. You are interpolating your notes, aren't you? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; and adding initials and--yes, sir. These two +other men here, I don't know which one for sure, but they are +Reserve Officers Fred A. Briederdorf, it looks like [spelling] +B-r-i-e-d-e-r--or, B-e-r-d-r-f, and also another man by the name of +Hunt, initials of which I don't know, or the first name. + +They were assigned to the basement, and I think that one of these two +men I assigned to the entrance into the basement, or the machinery room. + +Mr. HUBERT. There is a word here. + +Mr. DEAN. Reserve. + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that is reserve---- + +Mr. DEAN. This is the page where I started to make some traffic +assignments and they changed it, so, I--now, these are the traffic +assignments just prior to the movement of Oswald. At Commerce and +Pearl I assigned Officer Erwin, initials I don't know. At Commerce +and Central, Officer Burton. At Central and Main, Officer Wages. At +Central and Elm, Officer Gregory. At Pearl and Elm, Officer Tolbert. +At Harwood and Elm, Officer Fox. At St. Paul and Elm, Officer Wise. +At Elm and Ervay, shows here Brock. Brock. At Stone and Elm, Officer +Raz. Akard and Elm, Officer Hibbs. At Field and Elm, Officer Anderson, +and at Lamar and Elm, Officer Ferris. Now, these were just tentative +assignments. I think in one of my reports that is already in evidence +is the permanent assignments, but these are the originals that I made +that afternoon which were tentative. + +Now, this is just a note that I had written down from a Bob Stewart. +He worked for WRR, and he was giving me some information that he had +received. I don't remember from where he had received it, but he +stated to me, and I had written it down here, a Serge Fliger, he is +with Mutual News in Vienna, Austria, and that in essence--now, I can +interpret these notes for you, if you would rather. + +Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you just read them and then interpret them. + +Mr. DEAN. That source of Serge's information from behind the Iron +Curtain that a man told him, and he--it was a man that he stated that +he trusted completely, that there was a group of dissident Russian +soldiers, that this whole thing was an international plot, and that the +Communists would kill off Oswald as quick as possible. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, with reference to those last few notes about Fliger, +what you have read is not exactly what is in the book itself, but it is +rather your---- + +Mr. DEAN. More of an interpretation of my notes, because I had written +it rather hurriedly. + +Mr. HUBERT. But, let the record show that as I read the notes the +interpretation of them seems consistent with what I read. + +Mr. DEAN. I believe that is all that is in here, Mr. Hubert. I believe +that's all. + +Mr. HUBERT. Now, may I ask this; were all those notes that you have +just shown to me and read into the record with interpolations written +in your own hand? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Were they written at the time that you made the various +assignments and so forth? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And that includes also that information about that Serge +Fliger from Austria? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right. + +Mr. DEAN. And also, Mr. Griffin wanted me to find, if I could obtain a +copy of the--regarding a tape recording. It was an interview with radio +station KLIF, and this interview took place about 2:30 on November 24. + +Mr. HUBERT. 2:30 p.m.? + +Mr. DEAN. That afternoon. Yes, sir; I do have a copy of that and I have +listened to it and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, +sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. Are you proposing to give me the tape itself, or a +transcription of it? + +Mr. DEAN. Well, that is a transcript, I assume. I just asked KLIF would +they make me a copy of it and this is, a transcript. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to let me have the film, or this little +record, or seems to be tape on a regular roll. Do you want it back? + +Mr. DEAN. Could I have it back when the Commission gets through with it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; but I don't know when that will be, you know. + +Mr. DEAN. Well, whenever it might be. + +Mr. HUBERT. I am trying to see how we are going to mark this. + +Mr. MacMASTERS. Could it be placed in a sealed envelope and initialed +across it and seal it and so forth? + +Mr. HUBERT. I have placed my initials, LDH, on one end of the tape, +and I have done that also, on the other end of the tape and giving the +exhibit number of--by marking it "EX, 5138," with ball point pen on +both ends of the tape, and then I'm also marking the small box, "5138" +on one side, and "5138" on the other side, with my initials on both +sides. + +Mr. DEAN. Do you want me to initial it? + +Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I don't know that that is necessary if you have heard +that recording. + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. And it is a true recording of an interview of you, as I +understand it, that you had with some reporter of the---- + +Mr. DEAN. At KLIF. + +Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his name? + +Mr. DEAN. Glenn Duncan. It is on the tape also. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. You think it is a correct recording of a +conversation? + +Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. All right, anything else? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I, well, when these film, if they do come in, this +fellow does send them to me, I will make them available to you. + +Mr. HUBERT. You can do so through Mr. Barefoot Sanders. Contact us +immediately. + +Mr. DEAN. All right, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. I will accept this and place these various exhibits you +have given me today in with the other exhibits in the folder that we +are putting all these exhibits in. + +Mr. DEAN. All right. + +Mr. HUBERT. Any other matters? + +Mr. DEAN. No, sir. + +Mr. HUBERT. That is all. Thank you very much. Mr. MacMasters, thank you +very much. + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "the nature of the inquiry tonight is to +to determine the facts") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +Occasional missing periods at the ends of sentences have been remedied. + +The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be +available at Project Gutenberg. + +Text uses both "Nelson" and "Nielson"; may or may not be the same +person. + +Text uses both "Eberhart" and "Eberhardt"; probably the same person. + +Text uses both "MacMaster" and "MacMasters"; they appear to refer to +the same person, "Ted P. MacMaster", but none of these has been changed. + +Page 92: "Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert." is missing the word "is". + +Page 97: "were in the basement; we" was printed with the semi-colon. + +Page 104: "I directed by attention" is misprint for "my". + +Page 124: Quotation marks in the paragraph beginning "Closing the quote" +were printed as shown here. + +Page 180: In "10:50 approximately 10:50", the second one was printed as +"10.50"; changed here. + +Page 180: "onduty" may be misprint for "on duty". + +Page 207: "Do you solemnly swear" was misprinted as "your"; changed +here. + +Page 210: "I would recognize them if I say them" was printed that way. + +Page 214: Reference to "Detective Crenshaw" was spelled that way. + +Page 245: "I told Goolsby" was misprinted as "Goodsby"; changed here. + +Page 262: "I immediately come to town." was printed that way. + +Page 265: "The 29th or November 1963" is misprint for "of". + +Page 278: "No; Captain Martin" was printed that way. + +Page 280: "know what you are thinking is about it" was printed that way. + +Page 293: "Let the record show that I am not taking out of the bound" +was printed that way. + +Page 299: "Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you go ahead" may be misprint for "Mr. +GRIFFIN." + +Page 307: "How long have you known Officer Harrison" was misprinted as +"know"; changed here. + +Page 324: "line of newsman" was printed that way. + +Page 343: Several instances of "Mr. PUTNAM." that should have been +"Sergeant PUTNAM." have not been changed. + +Page 344: "not seen my anybody" should be "by". + +Page 376: "Mr. WATSON. But, your head was turned away from the area?" +probably was asked by Mr. Hubert, and Mr. Watson's response to the +previous question is missing. + +Page 393: "the spot there were you first saw" perhaps should be "where". + +Page 402: "the part mental interview" probably should be "departmental". + +Page 408: "Is that correct?" was misprinted as "It"; changed here. + +Page 415: "As the title of the Commission would indicate," ends with a +comma in the source. + +Page 428: "were there four of five" probably should be "or". + + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings +Vol. XII (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44012 *** |