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diff --git a/44011.txt b/44011.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 64f7662..0000000 --- a/44011.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,46830 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings Vol. -XI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings Vol. XI (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 21, 2013 [EBook #44011] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V11 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - - -Transcriber's note: Stylized "U" is denoted as =U=. Italics are -represented by _underscores_. - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ XI - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - - [A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission - and the Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XI: -John Edward Pic, Lee Harvey Oswald's halfbrother; Edward John Pic, -Jr., John Edward Pic's father; Kerry Wendell Thornley, a Marine Corps -acquaintance of Oswald; George B. Church, Jr., Mrs. George B. Church, -Jr., and Billy Joe Lord, who were on the boat Oswald took when he left -the United States for Russia; Alexander Kleinlerer, Mrs. Donald Gibson, -Ruth Hyde Paine, Michael Ralph Paine, and Gary Taylor, who became -acquainted with Oswald and his wife after their return to Texas in -1962; M. Waldo George, the Oswald's landlord at Neely Street in Dallas; -William Kirk Stuckey, who gave testimony relating to Oswald's political -views; Horace Elroy Twiford and Estelle Twiford, who gave testimony -relating to the date and route of Oswald's trip to Mexico in 1963; -Virginia H. James, James D. Crowley, James L. Ritchie, and Carroll -Hamilton Seeley, Jr., of the U.S. State Department; Louis Feldsott, -who gave testimony relating to the purchase of the C2766 rifle; J. -Philip Lux and Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., employees of sporting-goods -stores in Dallas; Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the -assassination scene; Louis Weinstock, an official of the Communist -Party, Vincent T. Lee, an official of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, -and Farrell Dobbs, an official of the Socialist Workers Party, who -testified concerning contacts Oswald had with their groups; Virginia -Gray, who gave testimony concerning a letter written by Oswald; -Albert F. Staples, who gave testimony concerning records relating to -Marina Oswald; Katherine Mallory, Monica Kramer, and Rita Naman, who -encountered Oswald while touring Russia in 1961; John Bryan McFarland, -Meryl McFarland, and Pamela Mumford, who were on the bus Oswald took to -Mexico in the fall of 1963; Dial Duwayne Ryder, Hunter Schmidt, Jr., -Charles W. Greener, Gertrude Hunter, Edith Whitworth, James Lehrer, and -Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, who gave testimony concerning an allegation -that Oswald had taken a rifle to a gun-repair shop in Dallas; Eugene D. -Anderson and James A. Zahm, of the U.S. Marine Corps, experts on the -subject of marksmanship; C. A. Hamblen, Robert Gene Fenley, and Aubrey -Lee Lewis, who gave testimony concerning an allegation that Oswald was -sending and receiving telegrams through a Dallas Western Union office; -Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., Evaristo Rodriguez, Orest Pena, Ruperto Pena, -and Sylvia Odio, who testified concerning contacts they believed they -had with Oswald in New Orleans and Dallas under various circumstances; -Edwin A. Walker, who testified concerning an attempt on his life on -April 10, 1963, and his attorney, Clyde J. Watts; Ivan D. Lee, an -agent of the FBI, who gave testimony regarding photographs which he -took of General Walker's residence; Bernard Weissman, who paid for an -advertisement concerning President Kennedy which appeared in a Dallas -newspaper on November 22, 1963; Warren Allen Reynolds, who was present -in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Priscilla Mary Post Johnson, -who interviewed Oswald in Moscow; Eric Rogers, who lived in the same -building as Oswald and his wife in New Orleans in 1963; Bardwell D. -Odum, James R. Malley, and Richard Helms, who testified concerning -a photograph which was shown to Marguerite Oswald for purposes of -identification; Peter Megargee Brown, who testified concerning records -relating to Oswald when he lived in New York during his youth; Francis -J. Martello of the New Orleans Police Department, who interrogated -Oswald in August 1963; John Corporon, an official of a New Orleans -broadcasting station; Mrs. J. V. Allen, who testified concerning the -schooling of Oswald's brothers; Lillian Murret, Oswald's aunt; and John -W. Burcham, Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr., Hilda L. Smith, J. Rachal, Bobb -Hunley, Robert J. Creel, Helen P. Cunningham, Theodore Frank Gangl, -Gene Graves, and Robert L. Adams, who testified concerning Oswald's -employment history. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - John Edward Pic 1 - Edward John Pic, Jr 82 - Kerry Wendell Thornley 82 - George B. Church, Jr 115 - Mrs. George B. Church, Jr 116 - Billy Joe Lord 117 - Alexander Kleinlerer 118 - Mrs. Donald Gibson 123 - Ruth Hyde Paine 153, 389 - M. Waldo George 155 - William Kirk Stuckey 156 - Horace Elroy Twiford 179 - Estelle Twiford 179 - Virginia H. James 180 - James L. Ritchie 191 - Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr 193 - Louis Feldsott 205 - J. Philip Lux 206 - Howard Leslie Brennan 206 - Albert C. Yeargan, Jr 207 - Louis Weinstock 207 - Vincent T. Lee 208 - Farrell Dobbs 208 - Virginia Gray 209 - Albert F. Staples 210 - Katherine Mallory 210 - Monica Kramer 212 - Rita Naman 213 - John Bryan McFarland and Meryl McFarland 214 - Pamela Mumford 215 - Dial Duwayne Ryder 224 - Hunter Schmidt, Jr 240 - Charles W. Greener 245 - Gertrude Hunter 253 - Edith Whitworth 262 - Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and - Gertrude Hunter 275 - Eugene D. Anderson 301 - James A. Zahm 306 - C. A. Hamblen 311 - Robert Gene Fenley 314 - Aubrey Lee Lewis 318 - Dean Adams Andrews, Jr 325 - Evaristo Rodriguez 339 - Orest Pena 346 - Ruperto Pena 364 - Sylvia Odio 367 - Michael Ralph Paine 398 - Edwin A. Walker and Clyde J. Watts 404 - Bernard Weissman 428 - Warren Allen Reynolds 434 - Priscilla Mary Post Johnson 442 - Eric Rogers 460 - James Lehrer 464 - Bardwell D. Odum 468 - James R. Malley 468 - Richard Helms 469 - Peter Megargee Brown 470 - Gary Taylor 470 - Francis L. Martello 471 - John Corporon 471 - Mrs. J. V. Allen 472 - Lillian Murret 472 - John W. Burcham 473 - Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr 473 - Hilda L. Smith 474 - J. Rachal 474 - Bobb Hunley 476 - Robert J. Creel 477 - Helen P. Cunningham 477 - Theodore Frank Gangl 478 - Gene Graves 479 - Robert L. Adams 480 - Ivan D. Lee 481 - James D. Crowley 482 - - -EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Page - Allen Exhibit No.: - 1 472 - 2 472 - 3 472 - 4 472 - 5 472 - 6 472 - 7 472 - 8 472 - 9 472 - 10 472 - 11 472 - 12 472 - 13 472 - 14 472 - 15 472 - Anderson Exhibit No. 1 303 - Brown Exhibit No. 1 470 - Burcham Exhibit No.: - 1 473 - 2 473 - 3 473 - Creel Exhibit No.: - 1 477 - 2 477 - 3 477 - 4 477 - 5 477 - 6 477 - 7 477 - 8 477 - Cunningham Exhibit No. 4 477 - - Gangl Exhibit No. 1 479 - Graves Exhibit No. 1 479 - Gray Exhibit No. 1 210 - Greener Exhibit No.: - 1 246 - 2 247 - 3 251 - 4 251 - Hunley Exhibit No.: - 1 476 - 2 476 - 3 476 - 4 476 - 5 476 - 6 476 - 7 476 - James Exhibit No.: - 1 181 - 2 186 - 3 187 - 3-A 187 - 4 188 - 5 188 - 6 189 - 7 189 - 8 189 - 9 189 - 10 190 - 11 190 - Johnson Exhibit No.: - 1 442 - 2 442 - 3 443 - 4 443 - 5 443 - 6 443 - Kramer Exhibit No.: - 1 212 - 2 213 - Lee Exhibit: - A 482 - B 482 - Lewis Exhibit No. 1 323 - Murret Exhibit No. 1 472 - Odio Exhibit No. 1 373 - Odum Exhibit No. 1 468 - Pena Exhibit No. 1 359 - Pic Exhibit No.: - 1 5 - 2 13 - 2-A 15 - 3 14 - 4 15 - 5 15 - 6 66 - 6-A 66 - 7 66 - 7-A 66 - 8 66 - 8-A 66 - 9 66 - 9-A 66 - 10 66 - 10-A 66 - 10-B 66 - 11 66 - 11-A 66 - 12 66 - 12-A 66 - 13 66 - 13-A 66 - 14 66 - 15 66 - 16 66 - 16-A 66 - 17 66 - 17-A 66 - 18 66 - 18-A 66 - 19 66 - 19-A 66 - 20 66 - 20-A 66 - 20-B 66 - 21 67 - 21-A 67 - 22 67 - 23 67 - 23-A 67 - 24 67 - 24-A 67 - 25 67 - 25-A 67 - 26 67 - 26-A 67 - 27 69 - 27-A 69 - 27-B 69 - 28-A 69 - 28-B 69 - 29-A 69 - 29-B 69 - 29-C 69 - 30-A 69 - 30-B 69 - 31-A 69 - 31-B 69 - 32-A 69 - 32-B 70 - 33-A 70 - 33-B 70 - 34 70 - 35-A 70 - 35-B 70 - 36-A 70 - 36-B 70 - 37-A 71 - 37-B 71 - 38-A 71 - 38-B 71 - 39-A 71 - 39-B 71 - 40-A 71 - 40-B 71 - 41-A 71 - 41-B 71 - 42-A 71 - 42-B 71 - 43-A 71 - 43-B 71 - 44-A 71 - 44-B 71 - 45-A 71 - 45-B 71 - 46-A 71 - 46-B 71 - 47-A 71 - 47-B 71 - 48 35 - 49 35 - 50 29 - 51 29 - 52 28 - 53 28 - 54 30 - 55 30 - 56 36 - 57 36 - 58 36 - 59 35 - 60 60 - Rachal Exhibit No.: - 1 475 - 2 476 - 3 476 - Rogers Exhibit No. 1 463 - Seeley Exhibit No.: - 1 195 - 2 196 - 3 198 - 4 199 - 5 199 - 6 200 - 7 201 - Smith Exhibit No. 1 474 - Staples Exhibit No. 1 210 - Stuckey Exhibit No.: - 1 161 - 2 163 - 3 169 - 4 177 - Thornley Exhibit No.: - 1 112 - 2 113 - 3 114 - Twiford Exhibit No. 1 179 - Walker Exhibit No.: - 1 408 - 2 409 - 3 411 - 4 411 - Weinstock Exhibit No. 1 207 - Weissman Exhibit No. 1 429 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC - -The testimony of John Edward Pic was taken at 10:25 a.m., on May -15, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. -John Hart Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Sergeant Pic, do you swear in your testimony you are about -to give that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but -the truth? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. State your full name, please. - -Mr. PIC. Staff Sergeant John Edward Pic, sir, U.S. Air Force. - -Mr. JENNER. And that Pic is spelled P-i-c-? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your home address. - -Mr. PIC. 7306 Westville, San Antonio, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a married man? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Give the full name of your wife including her married name, -children, if any, ages and names and where born. - -Mr. PIC. My wife's maiden name is Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. My eldest -is John Edward Pic, Jr., 14 May, 1952. My daughter, Janet Ann Pic, 18 -October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960. - -Mr. JENNER. Your wife Margaret is--she was born where? - -Mr. PIC. New York City, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Her parents are native Americans as well as she? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; they are not. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you know of them? - -Mr. PIC. Her father died; I never met the man while we were going -together. Her mother and father were separated. Her mother was born in -Hungary, I think. Her father was also, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you understand as to when they came to this country? - -Mr. PIC. I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I -have forgotten. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression they had been here a good many years? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her -forties, I am pretty sure. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. When you met your wife she was living with her -mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, New York City. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were at that time in the service? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; U.S. Coast Guard, assigned to U.S. Coast Guard -Cutter _Rockaway_. - -Mr. JENNER. How old is Mrs. Pic? - -Mr. PIC. Thirty, sir. She turned 30 the 21st of December. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. She was born December 21, 1933? - -Mr. PIC. It may be 22, sir; I never remember. I am giving sworn -testimony, I don't want to lie about my wife's birthday; it is either -the 21st or 22d, I am pretty sure it is the 21st. - -Mr. JENNER. You are stationed where at present? - -Mr. PIC. I am attached to Wilford Hall, USAF Hospital, Lackland Air -Force Base, San Antonio, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you--what is your particular assignment? - -Mr. PIC. I am NCOIC, Special Procedures Branch, Department of -Pathology, Wilford Hall Hospital. I have had this job since the 10th of -February this year, and my other ones, I had another job when I talked -to the Secret Service if you would be interested in that. - -Mr. JENNER. How long have you been at Lackland? - -Mr. PIC. I have been there since August 1962, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. My information is you were born in New Orleans on January -17, 1932? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You entered the Coast Guard. - -Mr. PIC. It was either 25 or 26 January 1950, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were then 18 years of age? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was where? - -Mr. PIC. I processed my enlistment in Fort Worth. I was sworn into the -Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. I think it might be well if we had your service history -all in one spot so you go ahead and for my benefit speak a little more -slowly so I can absorb it. - -Mr. PIC. All right, sir. Approximately 26 January 1950, enlisted in -Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex.; from January 1950 until May 1950, I was -in boot camp at U.S. Coast Guard Training Station, Cape May, N.J. In -May 1950 until January 1951, I was attached to U.S. Coast Guard cutter -_Rockaway_. January 1951 until approximately June 1951 was stationed at -U.S. Coast Guard Training Station, Groton, Conn. From June 1951 until -January 1952, I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard Base, St. George, -Staten Island, N.Y. From January 1952 until April 1952, I was stationed -at U.S. Naval Training Station, Bainbridge, Md. April 1952 until -February 1953, I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard PSU, which is Port -Security Unit, Ellis Island, N.Y. February 1953 until September 1953, I -was stationed aboard the U.S. Coast Guard cutter _Firebush_. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you at sea? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was classified as sea duty. It was really a -buoy tender. - -Mr. JENNER. In what area? - -Mr. PIC. New York area, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you on ship all the time during that period? - -Mr. PIC. We would go out a day, come back the next; back and forth. - -Mr. JENNER. What I am really getting at is when you were ashore were -you home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I went home the minute I got off the ship. - -Mr. JENNER. OK. - -Mr. PIC. September 1953 until April 1954--these months I am pretty -sure, I am certain are OK. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all right. - -Mr. PIC. I was stationed at U.S. Naval Hospital, Portsmouth, Va. -My address when I lived there was, for 3 months we lived with my -sister-in-law in Norfolk. - -Mr. JENNER. Name her, please. - -Mr. PIC. Mrs. Emma Parrish, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your wife's sister? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. Then in January of 1954 we moved over to -Portsmouth, Va., 1234 Holliday Street. - -April 1954 for about 2, 3 weeks, I was then stationed again at St. -George, Staten Island, and I received orders through the Coast Guard -cutter _Halfmoon_, and I was on the Coast Guard cutter _Halfmoon_ until -January 1956. - -Mr. JENNER. And at sea or---- - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was weather patrol duty. - -Mr. JENNER. You did come ashore when you got home? - -Mr. PIC. We pulled weather patrol, sir. We would be out 5 or 6 weeks -and we would be in 5 or 6 weeks; and this I tolerated for 21 months. -On 1 February 1956, I joined the Air Force. I joined the Air Force on -Staten Island, N.Y. My address at this time was 80 St. Marks Place, -Staten Island, N.Y. - -Mr. JENNER. In a few words, what was that transition. Had you -appeared---- - -Mr. PIC. My enlistment from the Coast Guard was complete, sir, and I -decided that staying in the Coast Guard for 20 or some odd years I -wouldn't see much of my family and I understood the Air Force was a -family man's outfit and I figured that was for me. So the day after I -got out of the Coast Guard I joined the Air Force--no broken service. I -was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base, Hempstead, Long Island, N.Y., -until October, end of September, October 1958, and received orders to -Japan, APO 323, Tachikawa, Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. What year were you in? - -Mr. PIC. 1958 when I received my orders. - -Mr. JENNER. At this time when you were assigned to Japan, that was the -period of time also when your brother Lee Oswald, then in the Marines, -was also stationed in Japan? - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of that fact when you were stationed in -Japan? - -Mr. PIC. When I received my orders, I was under the impression he was -in Korea, sir. I knew he was overseas in the Japanese-Korean area. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any communication from him prior to your going -to Japan? - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge, sir, sometime after he entered -the service and went overseas I received a letter from him, very short -note. He wrote a very short note. I no longer have this. - -Mr. JENNER. He entered the service in October of 1956? - -Mr. PIC. I was in the Air Force at Mitchel Air Force Base at the time. -Do you want me to finish with my military dates, and then I can go back? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. November 1958, 10 November 1958 until 17 July, 1962, I was -stationed in Japan. In August 1962 until the present date assigned to -Lackland, Wilford Hall Air Force Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base. - -Now, in the time period from--my mother paid us a Christmas visit, sir, -during the Christmas holidays of 1957, I believe, after Lee had joined -the Marine Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that would be a little over a year, that would be a -year and 2 months after he had joined the Marine Corps. - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you at that time? - -Mr. PIC. I was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base, sir, and I believe -my address was 105 Avenue C, East Meadow, Long Island. I was living -right next to the Air Force base. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known prior to that time, which presumably you did, -that Lee had entered the service? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I knew this. - -Mr. JENNER. Had enlisted in the Marines? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And how had you learned that, through your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; through my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you learned that at or about the time he actually -enlisted? What were the circumstances? - -Mr. PIC. Concerning what, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. His enlistment, when you learned about it, and how. He -enlisted in October 1956. He was then 17 years old. - -Mr. PIC. My mother told me some way or another, I don't remember, sir. -This is how I learned about it, either by phone call or by letter or -some way. Of course, I knew he would do it as soon as he reached the -age. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Why did you know he would do it and tell us -the circumstances upon which you, the facts upon which you base that -observation? - -Mr. PIC. He did it for the same reasons that I did it and Robert did -it, I assume, to get from out and under. - -Mr. JENNER. Out and under what? - -Mr. PIC. The yoke of oppression from my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Had that been a matter of discussion between you and for -example, between you and your brother Robert? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was just something we understood about and never -discussed. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would include Lee as well as your brother Robert; -that is, you were all aware of it? - -Mr. PIC. I know this includes my brother Robert. Of course, when I was -18 years old I didn't discuss things like this with Lee, who was much -younger. - -Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. You made a general statement---- - -Mr. PIC. OK. - -Mr. JENNER. Which lawyers would call a mixed matter of conclusion and -of fact and we would like to know the circumstances in general. - -Mr. PIC. OK. - -Mr. JENNER. They would probably go back for a good many years and it -involves a personality. - -Mr. PIC. Well, why don't I start with the death of Lee's father, and I -think really starting there I can tell you more of my own feelings and -so forth. I can make one statement but to bring out the circumstances I -think I should go back a little further. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I will come back to this eventually. I will -start you off this way. You are the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are also the brother of Robert? - -Mr. PIC. Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr. - -Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee Edward Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice in your statements that you refer to him as Robert -Lee Edward Oswald. There are some references by others to Robert E. Lee -Oswald. - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your stepfather is generally referred to in the record and -by witnesses as Lee Oswald. What was his full name? - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge, sir, it was Robert Lee Edward -Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event your brother Robert was a junior. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother Robert was born April 7, 1934; is that to the -best of your recollection? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee Harvey Oswald, October 18, 1939? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, air. - -Mr. JENNER. Your father's name? - -Mr. PIC. Edward John Pic, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are named after him except---- - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The two surnames were reversed? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think it appears on here. Yes, sir; I think it -appears on here. Yes, sir. John Pic, Jr., in fact his name is---- - -Mr. JENNER. Edward John Pic, Jr. - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And your mother was Marguerite Claverie Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. Claverie, Marguerite Frances. - -Mr. JENNER. And your mother and father were married what date? - -Mr. PIC. Eighth day of August 1929, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are now reading from what? - -Mr. PIC. The marriage certificate of Edward John Pic, Jr., and Mrs. -Marguerite Frances Claverie. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a marriage certificate that you, that is among your -personal papers? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to put an exhibit number on it. We will take a -photograph of it and return the original to you. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that as John Pic Exhibit No. 1. - -(John Pic Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as John Pic Exhibit No. 1, a marriage -certificate certified and dated August 8, 1929, reflecting the marriage -of Edward John Pic, Jr. and Miss Marguerite Frances Claverie on the 1st -day of August 1929, in Harrison County, Miss. The marriage certificate -does not show the town. - -Sergeant, do you have any recollection of your father? - -Mr. PIC. My own father? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir, I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of ever having seen your -father? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. You were too young at the time but you eventually became -aware of the fact that your mother, Marguerite, and your father, -Edward, were divorced not long after your birth? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware also of the fact that at the time of -your birth that your father and mother were separated? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the first information, I take it, then, in the -utterance I have just made? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That you have become aware that your mother and your father -were separated at the time of your birth? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You did learn about that? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From your mother? - -Mr. PIC. From Life magazine, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Well, that is what I was really getting at. - -Mr. PIC. O.K. - -Mr. JENNER. It was only in the last 6 or 8 months that you learned that -at the time of your birth your mother and your father were separated? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. I had always been told that they were -divorced because he didn't want children. I didn't know anything else -but that. I didn't know the time periods or anything else, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your stepfather, when your mother and your stepfather--I -will call him Lee Oswald because all the witnesses have referred to him -as Lee Oswald, is that what he was called, do you have any recollection -of it? - -Mr. PIC. I remember him being referred to as Mr. Oswald, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection at the time, at least--that -is an inelegant question. Do you recall your mother then marrying Lee -Oswald or Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. I knew they were married, I don't recall the marriage ceremony. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you recall about him, sergeant? - -Mr. PIC. I recall he was an insurance salesman, sir, for the -Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. He used to take me on his rounds for -collections sometimes. He was very strict with us. We got whippings -when we were bad. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't mean to claim that any of them was undeserved? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. Not in the least. - -Mr. JENNER. I should say this to you, I think. The witnesses all, -everybody spoke well of your stepfather. - -Mr. PIC. That is how I remember him, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were born in New Orleans? - -Mr. PIC. I was? - -Mr. JENNER. I am really putting a question mark at the end. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was born at New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. And the family lived in New Orleans? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you ever informed by anybody as to the business of -your father, not your stepfather but your---- - -Mr. PIC. My real father? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; or occupation? - -Mr. PIC. From what I was told he was a stevedore and had once been a -professional basketball player. This is all I remember ever hearing -about him. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was information that came from primarily your -mother? - -Mr. PIC. From my mother; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. As a boy as you grew up in New Orleans were you advised -whether your father was alive, whether he was in New Orleans or where -he was or anything about him in that connection? - -Mr. PIC. Being the nosy child I was, every once in a while I would look -him up in the phone book so I knew he existed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiries to find out what his business -was or occupation? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any attempt to go to where he might be -working or living to see what he looked like? - -Mr. PIC. I thought of it several times but I never made an attempt. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you influenced in this in any respect by your mother? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. I do remember on several occasions when we would -visit the Lillian Murrets the name would come up that he had visited -them, they would see him now and then and, of course, every time this -cropped up it made me more inquisitive. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Lillian Murret, that is your aunt, your -mother's sister? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And her husband is Charles "Dutz" Murret? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In those early years, did your family reside somewhere near -the Murrets? I am going to get into all those addresses if I can, but I -am thinking of the overall relationship geographically. - -Mr. PIC. As I recollect, the house was where Mr. Oswald died, all I -know is that it was on the corner of Alvez and Galvez. - -Mr. JENNER. 2109 Alvar? - -Mr. PIC. There you go. I think the street that ran next to it was -Galvez. - -Mr. JENNER. You are correct. - -Mr. PIC. This is the first real--I remember a first real house prior to -this, where it was, sir, I don't know. I was about 5 at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. But the first one you remember is the house on the corner -that you have mentioned? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do any of these addresses refresh your recollection? 2205 -Alvar? - -Mr. PIC. It may be the address of the house on Alvez and Galvez, I -don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. No? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. 2123 Alvar? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. 1661 Paul Morphy? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. 2132 Gallier? - -Mr. PIC. The name, the streets sound--I may have heard it before. - -Mr. JENNER. 1917 Gallier? - -Mr. PIC. Only the street sounds familiar. - -Mr. JENNER. 805 Greenwood? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. 220 North--my pronunciation will be bad--Telemachus. - -Mr. PIC. No. - -Mr. JENNER. 123 South Cortez? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had to get away yesterday before a letter arrived -which is at your base now, from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the -Commission, confirming arrangements for you to appear and have your -deposition taken before the Commission, and enclosing with that letter -copies of the legislation being Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 -authorizing the creation of the Commission, and a copy of President -Johnson's Executive Orders bringing the Commission into existence No. -11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission itself -for the taking of depositions. - -When you return to Lackland base you will find that letter probably in -the possession of your Commanding Officer, and he will deliver it to -you. - -The Commission was authorized by the resolution I have mentioned and -brought into existence by the President to investigate the facts -and circumstances involved in and surrounding the assassination of -President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and we have understood from -witnesses and other information we have, that you had and still have -information bearing upon the facts and circumstances relative to that -assassination, and it is this line of questioning that is directed -toward that. - -We appreciate your appearing voluntarily from Lackland base to appear -here today. - -That letter, and the enclosures state that you are entitled to counsel -if you want counsel present, and if you desire to have counsel present -I can suspend this now. - -Mr. PIC. I have nothing to hide, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, John. - -Mr. ELY. I just wanted to check on a couple of addresses with you, sir. -914 Hennesey, do you remember that? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. ELY. What about Taft Place? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You attended William Frantz Elementary School in Dallas, -did you not? - -Mr. PIC. New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. With your brother, Robert? - -Mr. PIC. What grade was I in, sir. He was two grades behind me. If I -was in the third, he was there. If I wasn't, he wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, the record shows you enrolled in William Frantz -School at 3811 North Galvez on the 16th of September 1936 at which time -you were 4-1/2 years old. - -Mr. PIC. Well, he wouldn't be there. - -Mr. JENNER. Not at that time. He was then 2-1/2. - -Do you recall transferring from William Frantz Elementary School to -George Washington Elementary School? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that some time in late September or in November, -perhaps of 1940. - -Mr. PIC. Well, prior to that we went to another place, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your first elementary school was William Frantz? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you attended William Frantz until when, to the best of -your recollection? - -Mr. PIC. I don't think I attended William Frantz after---- - -Mr. JENNER. The death of your stepfather? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; somewhere around there. We went to a boarding school -over in Gretna, La. Infant Jesus College was the name of it, I believe, -both Robert and I, and we hated the place. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a very short period of time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; because we hated the place. - -Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. - -Mr. PIC. I don't know whether it was before Washington or after. I -think it was before Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection this way. Your -stepfather died in August of 1939. You were then living in the house at -the corner of Alvar and Galvez which you recall as Alvez and Galvez. - -Do you recall that some months after the death of your father and in -the following year, the late winter or early spring, that you moved -from that house? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a physician by the name of Mancuso? - -Mr. PIC. It may or may not be familiar, sir. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. He was the doctor who delivered Lee, and also the man who -rented the house in which you had been living. Do you recall that? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You do recall leaving that house in which you had been -living at the time of the death of your stepfather? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; sometime afterward. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was a matter of months and not a -matter of years? - -Mr. PIC. It had to be months, sir, because I have got something else -for 1940 here. - -Mr. JENNER. When you moved from the house in which you had been living -at the time of the death of your stepfather, do you recall moving to -1242 Congress Street? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. I remember moving to a Bartholomew Street. - -Mr. JENNER. That Bartholomew Street, I will get to that in a moment, -perhaps to refresh your recollection was a little house that your -mother purchased on contract. - -Mr. PIC. What, Bartholomew? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. I remember that house. - -Mr. JENNER. 1010 Bartholomew. - -Mr. PIC. That could be it, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Before you moved to 1010 Bartholomew you lived, did you -not, at 1242 Congress? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother didn't sell the Alvar Street house until -January of 1944. - -Mr. PIC. I thought it was sold the day we moved out. - -Mr. JENNER. It was rented by Dr. Mancuso the day you moved out, and -ultimately your mother regained possession in January 1944, and he then -purchased that house substantially contemporaneously, in January of -1944. - -Mr. PIC. Can I ask you a question? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. PIC. Being Mr. Oswald was in the insurance business, and being I -was rather young, how did he leave her, I have no idea. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I will answer that question. You tell me what you -thought at the time and what your impression now is. - -Mr. PIC. Well, he didn't leave her much is what I was told. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the feeling you had at the time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he did leave a small insurance policy, and the house -on Alvar, on the corner of Alvar and Galvez, which was being purchased -under contract, and that is about all. - -I take it, it is your recollection, Sergeant, that when you and your -mother and Robert and Lee, who was then an infant child, just a few -months old, left the house on 2109 Alvar you entered some institution. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is your recollection of that institution? - -Mr. PIC. I believe it was in Gretna, La. - -Mr. JENNER. Spell that for the reporter. - -Mr. PIC. G-r-e-t-n-a, a whole bunch of little towns right across the -river from New Orleans, West Wego, and a couple of others, that was one -of these, I think it was Gretna, it might be in one of that group. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. And the name of the school was Infant Jesus College and it was -a Catholic school, sir. And us not being Catholics they lowered the -boom on us. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be you and your brother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were at that time just about 8 years old. Was it -before your 8th birthday or what? - -Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It was in 1940, however? - -Mr. PIC. I thought it was in the end of 1939. It is either the end of -1939 or early 1940. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that---- - -Mr. PIC. We were still living on Alvez and Galvez when we went to that -school. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. That is what I wanted to straighten out. - -Your mother put you and Robert in the Catholic boarding school before -the family actually moved out of the 2109 Alvar home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. How long were you boys at that Catholic -institution? - -Mr. PIC. My best recollection is that it was to the end of the school -year, 1940. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the summer of 1940? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Your mother was not working at that time, was -she? - -Mr. PIC. As far as I know; no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to why you were placed in that -institution inasmuch as your mother was not working, and at that time -you were still living or she was, with Lee at 2109 Alvar? - -Mr. PIC. My impression then, sir; I don't know, I can give you my -impressions now---- - -Mr. JENNER. Are these impressions that you are about to give me and -I do want you to give them to me, gathered from recollection of the -course of events over a period of years? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Based on discussions in the family over a period -of years? - -Mr. PIC. Based mainly on experiences in contact with my mother over a -period of years, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; tell us about them. - -Mr. PIC. I think it was probably because it was cheaper to maintain -Robert and I over at this school than it was to maintain us at home. I -mean we boarded there, they fed us, went to school. I don't know what -the fee was but this was the impression I have now. - -Mr. JENNER. While you boys were at the Catholic school, did your mother -and Lee leave, if you have a recollection of this, the 2109 Alvar home? -This would be sometime between the first of January 1940, and the time -you finished the second semester, let us say. - -Mr. PIC. If this house between Alvez and Bartholomew is a green house. - -Mr. JENNER. Green? - -Mr. PIC. Green, I can remember it. You can tell me if it was green, I -don't know, sir. I remember a green house somewhere in this time period. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me get at that this way. You and Robert were lodged -eventually in the Bethlehem---- - -Mr. PIC. Bethlehem Orphans Home, somewhere on St. Peters Street, New -Orleans. I think this was in 1942, though, this happened. - -Mr. JENNER. Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum. - -Mr. PIC. Right. That is the name. - -Mr. JENNER. Known as the Bethlehem Children's Home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And--all right, now, you entered there on the 3d of January -1942. Is that your recollection? - -Mr. PIC. That is my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. The winter of 1942? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I know it was a little bit after the war was -declared. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, taking that date, January 1942, and going -back---- - -Mr. PIC. OK. - -Mr. JENNER. To the end of the school year in 1940---- - -Mr. PIC. Well, the school in September 1940--I think I put in about -a year and a half in this Washington Elementary School after we were -taken out of Infant Jesus College. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time didn't you live at 1242 Congress Street in New -Orleans? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, if you have a map of New Orleans and show me where this -is maybe I can remember, but I don't remember anything but Bartholomew. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purposes of refreshing your recollection the -records of the public school system of New Orleans reflect the -following: that you were enrolled at William Frantz School located at -3811 North Galvez when you were 4-1/2 years old on September 16, 1936. -You continued there thereafter until September 5, 1940. - -Mr. PIC. September 1940. - -Mr. JENNER. These records would show that you were discharged from the -William Frantz Elementary School on January 2, 1940. - -Mr. PIC. That is better. - -Mr. JENNER. And that you reentered William Frantz on September 5, 1940, -and you transferred to George Washington Elementary School on November -12, 1940. - -At the time of the transfer you lived at 1242 Congress Street. Your -mother purchased the house at 1010 Bartholomew on the 5th of March -1941. And she sold it on the 16th of January 1942. - -With that information, does that serve to refresh your recollection -that the course of circumstances might have been these. I will state -them and then you correct me. I don't want you to take my word for it -but this is solely for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, if -it does refresh your recollection. - -Your stepfather died in August of 1939. In the winter of 1940, early, -sometime in January 1940, your mother took you and your brother, -Robert, out of school, you were in the William Frantz Elementary School -at that time, and placed you in the Catholic school. - -Mr. PIC. I think prior or right after this Catholic school there was -another school which was in downtown New Orleans. It was a day school. -She would bring us there in the morning and take us home at night. I -don't remember too much. We didn't stay there very long. - -Mr. JENNER. It is your definite recollection, however, that you were -at the Catholic orphanage school in the winter of 1940, which would be -approximately 5 months after the death of your stepfather. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't make that statement. I make the statement -that it is my definite recollection I was in the Infant Jesus College -School while we lived in this house on Alvez. What months these were, -sir, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is the best of your recollection at the present time -that that was the school period ending in the summer of 1940? - -Mr. PIC. I think so, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the school you attended -commencing the school year September 1940? Did you return to William -Frantz? - -Mr. PIC. I went to George Washington--if I was there at William Frantz, -I don't remember. Well, the dates you give me it would be---- - -Mr. JENNER. A short time? - -Mr. PIC. Right. I remember George Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you living at home at that time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that 1242 Congress? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would a map of New Orleans help you any? - -Mr. PIC. Possible; I don't remember this Congress, I remember a green -house, this was a green house I remember. What street it was on, I -don't know. But I do remember something about a green house. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it in the French quarter, in the old city? - -Mr. PIC. The way I remember the French quarter is down in here -somewhere, and this is certainly not the French quarter. Here is this -Gretna. It may be in Algiers that Infant Jesus, one of these two, -either Gretna or Algiers. I think it was Gretna. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother said it was Algiers, and there is evidence that -it was located in Algiers. - -Mr. PIC. OK, sir; Algiers. I know it was across the river. - -Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection, however, of living in a house -on Bartholomew? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to remember, you don't remember now the exact -address? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It was at 1010 Bartholomew. Did you live in the 1010 -Bartholomew house? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it before or during, or when was it with respect to -when you and Robert entered the Bethlehem Orphanage? - -Mr. PIC. We was living there when I went to Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. George Washington Elementary School at 3810 St. Cloud? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Our records show your mother purchased the 1010 Bartholomew -property in March of 1941, March 9 to be exact. - -Mr. PIC. When I was at Infant Jesus College, I couldn't very well -remember that Congress Street because I probably--we wasn't living -there. - -Mr. JENNER. You weren't living---- - -Mr. PIC. At home. - -Mr. JENNER. No. - -Mr. PIC. So, I am afraid I can't remember that Congress Street address. -I remember a green house. - -Mr. JENNER. A green house. - -Mr. PIC. Yes; that is about the best I can do. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event it was a house different from or other than -the 2109 Alvar? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In which you were living at the time of the death of your -stepfather? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is good enough. You remember being with your brother -Robert in the Bethlehem Orphanage? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your initial utterance voluntarily was that you entered -there in 1942. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was right after the war. - -Mr. JENNER. The records show that it was in the month of January -1942. You were then 10 years old so you might have some reasonable -recollection of it. Tell us the circumstances and what you understand -about it. - -Mr. PIC. Well, while we lived on this Bartholomew Street my mother -opened in the front room a little store called Oswald's Notion Shop. I -think she sold spools of thread and needles and things like this. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she sell any sweets or candy for children? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I remember we used to go in there and swipe it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your mother working at that time other than managing or -operating this little notions and sweet shop? - -Mr. PIC. Not that I remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was in a segment of the home at 1010 Bartholomew? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was the very front room. - -Mr. JENNER. And you boys were then attending school where? - -Mr. PIC. Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. When I say you boys, it is your brother Robert and yourself. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am sure Robert was attending school then. It was -Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Your brother Robert entered grammar school on -September 8, 1938. That was William Frantz so he was of school age at -the time we are talking about. - -Describe that little house to us on Bartholomew. Was it a new house? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; it wasn't new. I guess it had about a minimum of two -bedrooms, rather large back yard. We had a dog, and the dog's name was -Sunshine. There was a fence ran down it. I remember the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a nice neighborhood? - -Mr. PIC. It wasn't as nice as Alvez and Galvez. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time. I see. Now, you lead me to ask something I -should have asked heretofore, tell me about the neighborhood at 2109 -Alvar. What do you recall about that? - -Mr. PIC. They were all brand new houses. In fact, I think we were the -first ones to move in on the street, and most of the other ones were -under construction there. William Frantz was building a new school. It -was a rather nice neighborhood. Middle income, I guess, at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. And the 1010 Bartholomew home was not as new and the -neighborhood was not quite the same as at 2109 Alvar, but what kind -of a neighborhood was it? Was it a reasonably nice place, area? You -describe it. Don't ever let me put words in your mouth. - -Mr. PIC. Well, digging back in my sociology courses, I would say it was -upper-lower class, if there is such a classification. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember any neighbors at 1010 Bartholomew? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; there was a milkman, his name was Bud. Right on the -other corner from Bartholomew, on St. Cloud was a theater, I think was -called the Nola, and he lived behind this theater, he was our milkman, -and my mother and his wife and him were rather friendly, and we used to -go on trips on the weekends to the parks and things like this. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I ask you again what you recall to have been the -circumstances under which you entered the Bethlehem Orphanage, you and -your brother Robert? - -Mr. PIC. I can only give you impressions, I have now, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are these impressions that you gained now, gained from an -attempt to refresh your recollection? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. As to the circumstances at that time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. I think properly the notion store wasn't a booming business, -and she had to go to work and since we were reminded we were orphans -all the time, the right place to be would be in an orphan home. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother did remind you repeatedly that you were orphans? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That sort of thing. Would you elaborate on that, please? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir; she constantly reminded us we were orphans, that -she didn't have the money to support us in everything, and she opened a -notion store to make money, and she wasn't making money, and I remember -she closed it and went to work at about the same time that we entered -Bethlehem. - -Mr. JENNER. In January 1942, Lee was a little over 2 years old, is that -correct; he was born October 1939. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then 10 and your brother Robert was 8, I am -talking about approximate ages now. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you entered Bethlehem before your tenth birthday. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And a few months before his eighth birthday. Did Lee -eventually join you at Bethlehem? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he did. The exact date I don't remember. I know -he was there for only a matter of months. He wasn't there as long as -Robert and I was. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you a document I will have marked as John Pic -Exhibit No. 2, please, for purposes of identification which appears -to be a Xerox reproduction of an application blank executed by Mrs. -Marguerite Oswald and related minutes for admission of Lee Oswald to -the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum Association, dated at -New Orleans, December 26, 1942, and showing entry of Lee Oswald into -the orphanage asylum on the 26th day of December 1942. - -(John Pic Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, I direct your attention to the line on which -appears what purports to be the signature of "Mrs. Marguerite Oswald." -You are familiar with the handwriting, are you not? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Of your mother Marguerite? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And with her signature? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Drawing on that familiarity, is that signature the -signature of your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence the document now identified as John Pic -Exhibit No. 2. - -Having done that, Sergeant, does that refresh your recollection as to -the time when your brother Lee Oswald was admitted to the orphanage -asylum? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it to have been sometime in late 1942 or -thereabout? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to when he was--he joined you -at the orphan asylum. - -Mr. PIC. I remember we were there a while, sir. He came, and to the -best of my recollection he didn't stay but 6 months at the longest, and -left again. I don't think--he wasn't there as long as we were. - -Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention, Sergeant, to the fact your mother -has listed on this application her address as 111 Sherwood Forest Drive. - -Mr. PIC. That address is familiar to me. Sherwood Forest Drive part of -it, the numbers are not. - -Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't expect you to remember the exact number but the -street you do recall? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do. In fact, the Murrets lived on the same street. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression then that the address of 111 Sherwood -Forest Drive was probably the address of the Murrets? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I wouldn't say that. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your mother moving out of 1010 Bartholomew? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And so that it is your recollection that sometime between -your entry into the Bethlehem Orphanage at which time the family lived -at 1010 Bartholomew, that your mother and Lee or at least your mother -left, it must have been your mother and Lee, left the 1010 Bartholomew -residence and moved to another home on Sherwood Drive? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. You put it in sequence as best you can. - -Mr. PIC. If there was anything between Bartholomew and Sherwood Forest -Drive, I don't remember, sir. I do remember the Sherwood Forest Drive -house, and if I remember right it was three or four doors down from the -Murrets. - -Mr. JENNER. Where would that be in your recollection with respect to -Bartholomew? - -Mr. PIC. Oh, that is way across town, sir. That is in the city park -area. In fact, it was only a block from city park. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee was then--your mother had him with her because at -this time, December 1942, he was just a little over 3 years old. - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The records show that the 1010 Bartholomew home was sold -on the 16th of January 1942. Does that refresh your recollection as to -sequence that prior to her sale of the house she moved out of the house -and over to Sherwood Drive and the placing of you boys in the Bethlehem -orphanage school was all part of the picture? She sold the Bartholomew -house, entered you boys in the orphanage in January 1942. - -Mr. PIC. You want to know if I think she sold the house before we were -placed in the home? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But after you were in the home, that is the Bethlehem -Orphanage Home that house was disposed of in some fashion at least? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And she moved into another house on Sherwood Drive? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you remember anybody, an uncle of yours by -the name of John Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or---- - -Mr. PIC. I remember an uncle on my stepfather's side. I don't recall -his name, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. W. S. Oswald, is that familiar to you? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But other than an uncle on your stepfather's side, that is -you don't recall his name, his first name? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. His name was Oswald, though? - -Mr. PIC. I know it was on his side, sir. It may have been his sister, I -don't know. Maybe his brother-in-law. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't know. - -I will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 3 another application blank, -this one dated January 3, 1942, for admission of Robert Edward Oswald, -Jr., to the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum, which is -dated January 3, 1942, and direct you, Sergeant to the signature -appearing on that exhibit reading "Mrs. Lee Oswald." Are you familiar -with that signature? - -Mr. PIC. That is the first time I have ever seen her use the word "Lee." - -Mr. JENNER. But the handwriting; that is her handwriting? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document now identified as John Pic -Exhibit No. 3. - -(John Pic Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to that exhibit which shows -the entry of your brother Robert in the orphanage asylum on January 3, -1942, is it a fact that you and your brother Robert entered the asylum -at the same time? - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to this. There appears in the line -designated "mother" written in longhand Marguerite Claverie Oswald, -address, 1010 Bartholomew, and then right above it there is written 831 -Pauline Street--January 28. - -Do you recall your mother moving with Lee to a place on Pauline Street -in January of 1942? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All you recall is that she and Lee did move to a place, -another place from the 1010 Bartholomew address? - -Mr. PIC. Well, it shows it there. I thought it was Sherwood Forest, I -don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. It might have been shortly after that? - -Mr. PIC. This is not familiar at all, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the 831 Pauline Street address is not at all -familiar? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is any of this application blank, that is any of the -longhand on it, in the hand of your mother other than her signature? - -Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your religion is Lutheran, is it not? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were baptized in the Lutheran church, were you not? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that your brother Lee was taken from -the orphanage home before you and Robert were? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were released in June of 1944? - -Mr. PIC. I have--I may have. If you say it was June, sir, OK. It was -May or June. - -Mr. JENNER. May or June of 1944. And does it refresh your recollection -that your brother Lee was released from that home the previous January, -as a matter of fact on---- - -Mr. PIC. He didn't go when we went and he didn't leave, all I know is -he didn't enter when we entered and he didn't leave when we left. It -was between those periods the best I can state. - -Mr. JENNER. The record (Pic Exhibit) shows he was released from the -home on the 19th of January, 1944 (Pic Exhibit No. 2A), and that he -entered the home on the 26th of December, 1942 (Pic Exhibit No. 2). - -So he was there 2 years. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; that is not right. - -Mr. JENNER. That doesn't square with your recollection, you mean? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. He may have been in and out of there off and on but -he didn't spend full time there that long. You see she may have pulled -him out there for a couple of weeks to stay with the Murrets, and -things or even longer and still have him charged against Bethlehem. - -Mr. JENNER. I misspoke when I said 2 years. It would be the period from -December 26, 1942, to January 29, 1944, which is 1 year and 1 month. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; that would only be a year and 1 month. - -Mr. JENNER. For the record then that span of time for your brother -between January 29, 1944, when he was released, and December 26, 1942, -when he entered is approximately 13 months. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is about what you remember, isn't it? - -Mr. PIC. Well, I remember it about 6 months. But I guess that is right. -I know he wasn't in there a full 13 months at a clip. He was in and out -of there in 13 months. At that school if your parents wanted to take -you home for a couple or 3 weeks they took you home for a couple or 3 -weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do remember your mother did that? - -Mr. PIC. Sure, I am sure he stayed at the Murrets also. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, the Murrets recall that. Now, I show you an exhibit -which we will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 4 which for purposes of -identification is a Xerox duplication of a letter from Mrs. Marguerite -Oswald to the Reverend Harold of the Evangelical Lutheran Orphanage -Asylum dated February 1, 1945, addressed 4801 Victor, Dallas, Tex. - -It is in longhand. Would you please examine it for the purpose of -answering a question I will put to you as to whether it is in the -handwriting of your mother? - -Mr. PIC. It appears to me, sir; to be her handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibit No. 4. - -(John Pic Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. I have marked as John Pic Exhibit No. 5 another application -for admission to Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum -Association dated December 23, 1942, for the admission of John Edward -Pic and Robert Oswald to that orphanage, but the information on the -application is confined to John Edward Pic. - -Unfortunately, Mr. Pic, this application, for some reason by oversight -was not signed by your mother. Do you remember a pastor by the name of -Rev. J. H. Nau? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At the Redeemer Lutheran Church? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Reporter, for purposes of the record, there -appears on this application the fact that the marriage of Sergeant -Pic's mother Marguerite and his father Edward John Pic, Jr. was at -Gulfport, La. - -Mr. PIC. Mississippi. - -Mr. JENNER. No, it says Gulfport, La. here and should have been -Gulfport, Miss.? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; Mississippi. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a pastor by the name of Reverend Scherer? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The Trinity Evangelical Church. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Rev. M. R. Lecron? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the Redeemer Church? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, all you boys were christened in the Lutheran -church, faith, were you not? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know or remember if Lee was. I don't know about Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. The record of the Bethlehem Children's Home show that he -was baptized by the Rev. M. R. Lecron of the Redeemer Lutheran Church. -The exact date, however, is not given. - -Mr. PIC. They even have his birthday wrong there. - -Mr. JENNER. 1 day. They have it as the 19th whereas it was 18th. As a -matter of fact, your mother on one of her papers fixes it on the 19th. - -Mr. PIC. So does one of the letters. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer John Pic Exhibit No. 5 in evidence. - -(John Pic Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. We will adjourn now and reconvene at 3 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED - -The proceeding was reconvened at 3:25 p.m. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, Sergeant. - -Do you recall along about this time that you were in the Bethlehem -Orphanage your mother became acquainted with a man by the name of E. A. -Ekdahl and subsequently married? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was about this time, around 1944, that you boys were -withdrawn from the Bethlehem Orphanage and taken to Texas? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I will go back a little bit because I want you to put -it in sequence. Before we adjourned for noon recess, I covered the -matter of the period of the birth of Lee, the death of your stepfather -Lee Oswald, and then brought you up to the Bethlehem School and stopped -there. - -To the extent you have impressions commencing with, let us say, your -entry into grammar school, at that time your stepfather Lee Oswald was -alive. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were, when you entered grammar school that was -kindergarten you were only four and half years old. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall moving from place to place before you finally -settled in---- - -Mr. PIC. I just remember one residence prior to Alvez and Galvez. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. Where that would have been, I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. OK. But you sort of settled down in 2109 Alvar? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That your stepfather had purchased that home in 1938? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you went along, he died about a year and a half -later after he purchased it. - -Take us from the time that your stepfather died and tell us your -impressions of how the home life changed; if it did change, what -effect, if any, you observed that you now can recall that circumstances -had on your mother; and what kind of life you and the boys began to -lead as distinguished from the life you led while your stepfather was -alive if there is any change now. - -I don't want to put any words in your mouth. - -Mr. PIC. Well, we were from the time of his death, placed in two -boarding schools prior to Bethlehem, this Infant Jesus, and the other -one I don't recall the name of, the other one being a day school. - -Mr. JENNER. Sort of a day school, your mother took you in the morning -and brought you back. That is two of the boys, not Lee? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He was almost a suckling child? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember. I don't see how he could have been there. - -Now this day school was prior to Infant Jesus, it had to be. We went -to Infant Jesus and out of there back home for a year or so where we -attended Washington and then into Bethlehem. - -Like I said before, we were constantly reminded we were orphans and had -financial difficulty. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you just talked about Washington and -Bethlehem you put Washington before Bethlehem, and this morning you put -Washington into Bethlehem. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; we went to Washington before Bethlehem. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you will find that the record of this morning, I am -pretty sure, will show a different sequence. That is your impression, -that you went into Bethlehem a few months after your stepfather died? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; Infant Jesus. - -Mr. JENNER. Infant Jesus. I see. Go ahead. You are right. - -Mr. PIC. We were constantly reminded we were orphans and there were -financial difficulties, and I was rather young, I don't remember -too much about this, but it was always something to do about money -problems. We kind of liked Infant Jesus, it wasn't bad at all. We had a -pretty good childhood while we lived on Bartholomew Street, there were -no major problems there. And even at Bethlehem we both, Robert and I -enjoyed Bethlehem. I mean we were all there with the kids with the same -problems, same age groups, and everything. Things for myself became -worse when Lee came there, that is why I know he wasn't there too long. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it? - -Mr. PIC. At Bethlehem they had a ruling that if you had a younger -brother or sister there they had bowel movements in their pants the -older brothers would clean them up, and they would yank me out of -classes in school to go do this and, of course, this peeved me very -much, and I wasn't but 10 or 9 or 11. - -Mr. JENNER. He was only 3 years old? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; but I was 10. And they did quite a few things like this. -If there was an older brother or sister there they had to take care of -the younger child. The people there didn't all the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this 7-year spread as the years went on between you and -Lee, did that affect your relationship with him as distinguished from -your relationship with your brother Robert who was only 2 years younger? - -Mr. PIC. Well, anything I was involved in Robert always was. Lee was -left out because of the age difference. Robert and I went to all these -homes together and all the schools together. Lee didn't, of course. - -Mr. JENNER. During the course of the years your companions and friends, -I assume were different, that is you and Robert on the one hand? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee on the other? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. His life differed a little from yours too, didn't it, that -is at the outset of this early period your mother, except for this -period at Bethlehem, when he was there, except for his being withdrawn -for a few weeks at a time, he was largely with her? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Living with her? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she express problems on her part with him? - -Mr. PIC. Well, she referred how would she work and take care of a child -and things like this, both. It would seem that the problem with Robert -and I was easier to solve than the problem with Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. Go ahead with your account. - -Mr. PIC. Well, up until we left Bethlehem, I can only recall three -places of employment for Mrs. Oswald, one being Oswald's notion store -which was 1941-42, thereabouts. - -Mr. JENNER. While you had the Bethlehem house? - -Mr. PIC. No; that was before Bethlehem. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't mean Bethlehem, Bartholomew Street? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; after we were placed in Bethlehem she was a manager of -Princess Hosiery on Canal Street and Pittsburgh Plate and Glass Co., I -don't remember which one came first. - -Mr. JENNER. Myrtle Evans referred to Pittsburgh Plate and Lillian -Murret referred to Pittsburgh Plate. You do recall that? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in fact, I think at the time she worked at -Pittsburgh Plate she was going with Mr. Ekdahl. In fact, I think I -remember him driving us over there or something once. - -Mr. JENNER. When you were at Bethlehem, did your Aunt Lillian ever have -occasion to visit? - -Mr. PIC. She never visited us that I recall. We visited her many times. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were at Bethlehem? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Myrtle Evans visiting on any occasion? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember. Wait a minute. Myrtle Evans, is she kind of -heavy? - -Mr. JENNER. She is now. - -Mr. PIC. She was then too, that is the same one. - -Mr. JENNER. Energetic? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I remember a Myrtle. - -Mr. JENNER. She had taken some accounting and---- - -Mr. PIC. The name is familiar, sir. I can't place the lady. - -Mr. JENNER. She had been a girl friend of your mother's? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I wouldn't speculate whether she visited us or not at -Bethlehem, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the Evanses coming over to see you when you -were at Covington, one time? - -Mr. PIC. I don't recollect, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recollect Myrtle Evans coming and visiting when you -first went to Texas? - -Mr. PIC. Sir; I don't remember Myrtle Evans that much. The name Myrtle -is familiar to me. Just like this woman that worked at Holmes for 30 -years is familiar to me. Where I had seen her and different places? - -Mr. JENNER. H-o-l-m-e-s? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is a department store in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course you would recall the Murret family. - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I recall them very good. - -Mr. JENNER. There were a couple of those children about your age and -Robert's, is that right? - -Mr. PIC. I can only--let's see, Charles, there is Marilyn and Charles. - -Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is the youngest? - -Mr. PIC. Marilyn is the youngest, no, sir; Boogie is the youngest. - -Mr. JENNER. B-o-o-g-i-e? - -Mr. PIC. What is he doing now. I heard he was playing semipro ball. - -Mr. JENNER. No. He is not doing that any more. Is Boogie John? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I think---- - -Mr. JENNER. One is a dentist, one is with Squibb, Gene is a seminarian. - -Mr. PIC. Gene is the priest. Gene is the one who is my age or -thereabouts. Boogie was closer to Robert's age. - -Mr. JENNER. She had five children? - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Marilyn. - -Mr. PIC. Joyce. - -Mr. JENNER. Marilyn, Joyce, John, Gene---- - -Mr. PIC. Charles. - -Mr. JENNER. And Charles. They are all alive? - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a fairly lively family, apparently all nice people. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we enjoyed going there very much. - -Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along with them? - -Mr. PIC. Well, I don't know how he got along with them. I know he was -placed there several times to stay for a while. I don't know if the -people resented this or was glad to have him or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, they were glad to have him. They appeared to me to be -generous people. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. We always could count on our uncle for a dollar or -two. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it from the questions I asked you this morning -that you had little or no contact with your stepfather's family, with -the Oswald family? - -Mr. PIC. There was no contact that I remember at all, sir, after his -death. Prior to his death, there was quite a bit of contact from what -I remember. I remember maybe it was his mother, grandmother we would -visit. He had this other Oswald who was either a brother or sister -or something, we visited these people. I remember the older woman we -visited always gave us kids, including me, it was just Robert and I, a -whole bunch of toys for Christmas every Christmas. But after his death, -there was no contact at all, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to why that took place? - -Mr. PIC. I will speculate and say that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Give me the impression you have rather than speculate. - -Mr. PIC. They couldn't get along with Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. With your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident, sergeant, when your mother went -to work in 1942, and she had a couple, a Mr. and Mrs. Roach taking care -of Lee who was then---- - -Mr. PIC. What was Roach's first name, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Thomas. - -Mr. PIC. What street did he live on? - -Mr. JENNER. 831 Pauline. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. The only one I could think of that may have -taken care of Lee was this milkman Bud and his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. To help refresh your recollection, it is a fact that your -mother lived with Lee at 831 Pauline Street in 1942, and a couple -present there by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Roach, Thomas and Dora -Roach. They had been living on de Lessups Street in New Orleans, in the -800 block. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And moved into 831 Pauline, or your mother moved into 831 -Pauline Street with them. There was a whole question as to who was the -renter, whether it was the Roaches or your mother? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; this I don't recall at all. - -Mr. JENNER. And it wasn't long after they were there that some -difficulty arose with respect to Lee and that ended that. It was about -6 weeks or a month, 2 months. But you have no recollection of that? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. The question I asked you and which I keep -interrupting in was to give me your impressions of change, if any, with -the coming of the death of your stepfather, and you were in the course -of recounting that. - -Mr. PIC. Well, it struck me or it strikes me that we became lower and -lower in the class structure. - -Mr. JENNER. As your financial status---- - -Mr. PIC. And our class structure, both. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that? Your financial status went -down? - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you say lower in the class structure? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that? - -Mr. PIC. I would say we were in the middle classes while we lived on -Alvez. - -Mr. JENNER. While your father was alive? - -Mr. PIC. And, being we moved to Bartholomew, and being in orphan homes, -I think we went to the upper lower class, one class structure dropped, -two class structures dropped, something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of that even as a 10-year-old? - -Mr. PIC. Well, I realized that we weren't living as good as we used to, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mr. PIC. Well, once we were placed in an orphan home, and we were with -our own kind, so to speak. I had no feelings whatsoever. I mean, we -enjoyed that place. They were rather strict but we enjoyed it. We had -quite a bit of freedom even though they were strict. We would sneak out -of the place at night and do all kinds of childish things. But Robert -and I enjoyed it. - -Mr. JENNER. I am thinking more of your relations with your mother. Was -her personality affected by the death of your stepfather? - -Mr. PIC. Probably she confided and put to me most of her problems since -she didn't have a husband to do this with, always referring to me as -the oldest and things like this. When we were in Bethlehem we didn't -see that much of her. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. Maybe once every 2 weeks, that would be the most often. Maybe -once in a while she would drop around. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were at Bethlehem did you visit the Murrets? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; several times, lots of times. You see the home once -or twice a year, would take us to the city park there in New Orleans. -We would get on the rides and naturally the Murrets were right there, -and so we would rent bikes for free. It was on the home and I would -ride over to their house and visit with them a while, so did Robert. -Whenever we had a chance we were more than glad to go there. - -Mr. JENNER. While at least through the Bethlehem Orphanage period your -present recollection is you accommodated to circumstances and within -the limits of the circumstances your impression is that you lived a -reasonably happy life? - -Mr. PIC. We enjoyed it. - -Mr. JENNER. Like all children you accommodated yourself to the -circumstances? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think probably a good new start off point is Mr. -Ekdahl. Tell us your recollection of him, what led up, your present -recollection of the circumstances which brought him into your lives and -when you first were aware of his existence and what your circumstance -was at that time, what your mother's was? - -Mr. PIC. Okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Give times as best you can. - -Mr. PIC. If you can date for me when I had my appendix out I can -practically date for you Mr. Ekdahl's---- - -Mr. JENNER. I am afraid I can't. Were you at Bethlehem Orphanage? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I was at Bethlehem so it would be either 1943 or 1944, -and I am sure she was at Pittsburgh at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Pittsburgh Plate? - -Mr. PIC. Right. And it was right after I had my appendix out that he -appeared on the scene. And she visited us more often when she was -going with him. - -Mr. JENNER. And she brought him with her, did she? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; he had the car. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, did your mother have an automobile during this -period following your stepfather's death? - -Mr. PIC. I don't think so, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl did have an automobile? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he had a 1938 Buick. - -Mr. JENNER. And your mother visited you more often? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. And they on weekends took us to Covington. I remember once, it -may have been more. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I wanted to ask you about that. While your -stepfather was still alive, did you occasionally visit Covington? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. JENNER. Covington, as I understand it, Covington, La., is sort of a -summer resort area, is it not? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it is on the--it is north of New Orleans on the -northern shore of Lake Pontchartrain, and the Murrets used to go -to Mandeville, which is about 30 miles closer to New Orleans than -Covington was, and we used to visit them back and forth during the -summer. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the names of any of those people that -you--whose homes you, the summer resort homes that you rented during -the summer period? - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, sir, we were in cabins at -these tourist places. We were never at anybody's home. The Murrets -were, I believe, at somebody's home in Mandeville. They had a large -house there. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Benny C-o-m-m-a-n-c-e, is that name familiar to -you? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At 600 West 24th Street, Covington, familiar to you? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the address 311 Vermont stimulate your recollection -over in Covington? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; if it was this time period it doesn't. That may have -been the street we lived on when we went there in 1946, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I ask you to relate the circumstances respecting -Mr. Ekdahl. - -Mr. PIC. Well, in June 1944, we were removed from Bethlehem, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know about that in advance? Were you aware you were -going to be removed and why? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember how much in advance we knew this. We knew -maybe a couple of weeks ahead of time. - -Mr. JENNER. Or maybe the more important thing is why were you being -removed from Bethlehem? What were the circumstances of bringing that -about? - -Mr. PIC. Well, she was marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and if you had two parents -they wouldn't allow you to stay at Bethlehem. - -Mr. JENNER. She was not yet married to him? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't marry him until the 5th of March 1945? - -Mr. PIC. That is about right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So you were removed in June or May 1944, and the record -shows in June. Describe Mr. Ekdahl, please, to the extent you now have -a recollection? - -Mr. PIC. He was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Who was he? Who did you understand he was? - -Mr. PIC. He was an electrical engineer. His home was in Boston, Mass., -somewhere around there. He was described to us as a Yankee, of course. -Rather tall, I think he was over 6 feet. He had white hair, wore -glasses, very nice man. - -Mr. JENNER. Very nice man. I take it he was older than your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he appeared to be somewhat older, quite a bit. - -Mr. JENNER. A man of at least, apparently of considerably better means -than your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Than you boys had been accustomed to? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his health, what did you understand as to that? - -Mr. PIC. I have no recollection of knowing anything about his health at -that time, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. When you were taken from Bethlehem Orphanage in June -of 1944, where did you go? - -Mr. PIC. Dallas, Tex., sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recall where you lived in Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. PIC. I remember what the house looks like, sir. I don't remember -the address. You can probably refresh me on that. - -Mr. JENNER. I will do so and I want to make it accurate. 4801 Victor -was the address. - -Mr. PIC. That sounds familiar. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas. Would you please describe that 4801 Victor -Street home? - -Mr. PIC. It was white, two story. - -Mr. JENNER. Frame, brick? - -Mr. PIC. Frame. I think it contained four apartments, maybe only two. I -am pretty sure it was four though, two up and two down. We lived on the -lower right, in boxcar-type rooms. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. PIC. Well, railroad style, living room, bedroom, bathroom, bedroom, -kitchen. - -Mr. JENNER. One lined the other, you mean? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. With a long hallway to connect it; is that it? - -Mr. PIC. The hall ran into each room as you walked by it. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you lived there with your mother, with Lee, and with -Robert? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At the outset? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl did not live with you when you first went to -Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection where he lived? First, was he -in Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. I think he was in Fort Worth, sir. And he used to come over to -Dallas to see us. Is that right? - -Mr. JENNER. I think that is right. I can't answer. - -Mr. PIC. Okay. - -Mr. JENNER. That was one of the reasons why I asked my first question. - -Mr. PIC. I think that is the way the setup was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think that is so but I don't know. He would come over -from Fort Worth and visit you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You boys, when you reached Dallas in 1944, you entered -school, grammar school at that time, did you? - -Mr. PIC. Robert--just a moment, sir; I remember I attended a summer -school session of the 6th grade. Robert may have. I don't really -remember. I think he did. - -Mr. JENNER. We are in the summer of 1944? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to summer school. I did, I know. I think he -may have. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that it was the Davy Crockett---- - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was not the Davy Crockett. It was another school. -Davy Crockett is where we entered in September. We meanwhile went to -summer school. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. If you can give me a map of Dallas? - -Mr. JENNER. You never heard of it? - -Mr. PIC. Give me a map of Texas and I can show you where approximately -the school was and I will show you where it was. - -Mr. JENNER. You did, after that summer school period in the summer of -1944, enter grammar school in Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. That is right. Davy Crockett Elementary School. I entered the -7th grade and Robert entered the 5th. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's see, Lee is now almost 5 years old. Did he enter Davy -Crockett at that time? - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At that age he would be going to kindergarten anyhow. All -right, you and Robert then entered Davy Crockett? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You continued on at Davy Crockett in the fall semester? - -Mr. PIC. Just a moment. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes? - -Mr. PIC. This house we went to in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. My mother owned it and rented the rest of it or she owned one -side of it. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a duplex? - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Myrtle Evans testified that she recalled visiting you, -the family, on a trip she made to Dallas on one occasion, on a buying -trip or something or accompanied a friend of hers, it was on a ladies' -apparel buying trip and she remembered it as what she called them, -two-place houses. To me they are duplexes. - -Mr. PIC. Right; duplex. - -Mr. JENNER. So her recollection is fairly good then. Does that affect -your recollection that it was a four-apartment building rather than it -was a two-apartment building? - -Mr. PIC. I am pretty sure it was four apartments. - -Mr. JENNER. Okay; go ahead. - -Mr. PIC. Well, I was under the impression and always have been that she -owned the house, and there was some arrangement with Mr. Ekdahl as to -how she got it or something. She was renting to one couple upstairs, I -know; is this right? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. We are in Davy Crockett Elementary School, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Carry on. - -Mr. PIC. Well, that would be September 1944. In the summer of 1945 she -married Mr. Ekdahl. I think you dated that as March or April. - -Mr. JENNER. She married him, in fact, on May 7, 1945. I said March -before; I misspoke. It was May 7, 1945. - -Mr. PIC. I have got summer. It is pretty good. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he then move into the 4801 Victor Place? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she took a short honeymoon for a day or two and came -back and moved in. - -Mr. JENNER. In the summer of 1945 did you and Robert continue on -at--through that summer in Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That following September, however, you transferred to some -other school; did you not? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and we were aware of this school before the school -session ended in 1945. I knew before we left Davy Crockett we were -going. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that? - -Mr. PIC. In September 1945, sir, Robert and I entered Chamberlain-Hunt -Academy, military school for boys, Port Gibson, Miss. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that--that that was forthcoming? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as early as May 1945 I think. - -Mr. JENNER. And what were the circumstances? - -Mr. PIC. Mr. Ekdahl had to travel and so we were going to boarding -school. - -Mr. JENNER. I exhibited to you earlier, and you identified a letter of -your mother's dated February 1, 1945, to the Bethlehem Orphanage, John -Pic Exhibit No. 4 in which your mother is petitioning the Bethlehem -Orphanage for the return of you two boys to the orphanage. - -Mr. PIC. I don't think I was aware of this letter. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not aware? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So circumstances that you can recall now of the possible -relationship between your mother and Ekdahl that might have led to her -seeking to do this? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. She says in her letter she is thinking in terms of -returning you to Bethlehem because she is going to be traveling with -her husband when she does marry him--that is Mr. Ekdahl. There was no -discussion in your presence that you can recall on that subject? - -Mr. PIC. Not returning to Bethlehem, no, sir; not that I remember. I -have to find Victor Street and from there I can just about guess where -the school was. I am lost on this map. I can't find Victor Street and -where I lived. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Davy Crockett Grammar School near your home at 4801 -Victor Street? - -Mr. PIC. About three blocks, sir. Three long blocks. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe that neighborhood to us. - -Mr. PIC. I think it would be middle class. - -Mr. JENNER. A level up from what you had been accustomed back in New -Orleans? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. There were fine brick homes; in fact, I had a paper -route out there that I delivered, and easily middle class. Maybe some -upper middle class. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your life there pleasant? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And when Mr. Ekdahl moved in were the relationships -generally among all, now five of you, pleasant? - -Mr. PIC. Between Mr. Ekdahl and the three boys they were pleasant, sir. -I think there were some arguments between Mr. Ekdahl and my mother from -time to time. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware of those? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. I am going to need a map with a listing of the -schools. This one doesn't seem to have one. This summer school was -about a good 2 miles away. We walked it in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. You and Robert? - -Mr. PIC. I think me and Robert. We had other friends that we went to -school with. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course. - -Mr. PIC. And there were always a group of us. I don't remember if -Robert went or not, sir, to tell you the truth. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. When you came around to the fall of 1945, however, -you entered the Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in fact, the trip to Chamberlain-Hunt was a side -trip because Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and Lee were on their way to Boston -to visit his folks. And so they dropped us off at the school and then -proceeded to Boston. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a motor trip? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was in a 1938 Buick. - -Mr. JENNER. You remained at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy except -for summer vacation, or something of that nature, for how long? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir, you just want a blanket statement. I have got a -whole bunch of goodies while I was at Chamberlain-Hunt. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mr. PIC. During Christmas vacation of 1945 Robert and I received money -to go home for the Christmas holidays. We were to take the train from -Vicksburg, Miss., to Shreveport, La. These were instructions and when -we arrived at Shreveport, we were to wait for Mr. Ekdahl to pick us -up. We arrived and he wasn't there. So I think we waited around, I have -an estimate of between 1 and 2 hours, and then he showed up. He then -drove us to Fort Worth, Benbrook, Tex., and we had a house about 15 -miles below Fort Worth in Benbrook, it was way out. It wasn't the same -Benbrook house, it was further. This was a brick house. - -Mr. JENNER. The first house in Benbrook? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known the family had moved to Benbrook, Tex.? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; because we was writing. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of correspondence? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This was your first view of that house? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what it was; describe it to us? - -Mr. PIC. It was rather isolated on one of the main highways. In fact, I -just drove that way recently and I couldn't find the place. When I went -up to Fort Worth in 1962 I was looking for the house, I couldn't find -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it Granbury Road, Box 567, Benbrook, Tex.? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that sounds familiar. This was a brick house, with -quite a bit of ground. I think way back they told us that one of the -Roosevelt sons had a house out there, that is how I remember. We -arrived there sometime the next day or two; my mother quizzed us on why -we were so late. One reason we were late besides the wait was the heavy -fog, and I informed her we had to wait a while for Mr. Ekdahl, and she -kind of hinted to me, I think I was 15 at the time, did I see another -woman or was there anything shady about it or something. That is all I -have to say about that. She was under the impression years later, she -told me that he had met some woman in Shreveport and they were having -some fun. - -Mr. JENNER. You were in Benbrook, Tex., then for the Christmas holiday? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You and Robert? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee was living with Mr. Ekdahl and your mother at the -Benbrook, Tex., home out on the outskirts of Fort Worth; I guess this -is---- - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you returned after the Christmas holiday to---- - -Mr. PIC. It would be January 1946 we returned to, back to -Chamberlain-Hunt. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you return home at all from then on until the summer of -1946? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you during the summer of 1946? - -Mr. PIC. In the summer of 1946, Robert and I were informed that we -would stay at the academy to attend summer session there. Well, school -let out in May and I think summer session starts in June, so there was -a waiting period of about 2 to 3 weeks, so we just stayed there. This -suited us fine. We really liked the school. - -Sometime during that waiting period my mother showed up and informed us -that her and Mr. Ekdahl had separated, and she showed up with Lee, of -course, and she was going to take us to Covington where we would stay -the summer. We had--the commandant of the school was an attorney, and I -think she got some legal assistance from him about divorce proceeding -or something. She talked to him about it, I know. His name was Farrell, -Herbert D. Farrell. He was commandant of the school. Did you ever talk -to him? - -Mr. JENNER. Not that I know of. - -Mr. PIC. A real nice man, too. She had the car. - -Mr. JENNER. The 1938 Buick? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. She had it. - -Mr. JENNER. Had she taken a home or a house in Covington? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. When we arrived there she looked for a house, and -there always is one neighborhood two or three blocks from the downtown -area that we stayed in during the summers and she took a house in this -area. That address I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the address, the street Vermont Street refresh your -recollection, 311 Vermont? - -Mr. PIC. The only thing I remember about the house is a lady next door -was plagued by squirrels throwing nuts on her roof because she was out -every morning chasing them with a broom. - -Mr. JENNER. The squirrels? - -Mr. PIC. The squirrels. This was a one-story brick house, and we lived -on the right side. - -Mr. JENNER. You stayed there throughout the summer? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Chamberlain-Hunt that fall? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we returned to Chamberlain-Hunt in September 1946. -Then for the Christmas holidays, 1946, 1947, we returned to Covington -where she and Lee still were, and spent those holidays there. During -those holidays we made one trip to New Orleans with this other boy who -lived in Covington also that we went to school with, and they were -driving to New Orleans so we all bummed a ride and went to New Orleans -and visited the Murrets a day or so. I think it was 1 day. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your mother accompany you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had Lee entered grammar school at this time? - -Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he entered---- - -Mr. PIC. He probably did. - -Mr. JENNER. He entered in September 19, 1946, and continued to January -23, 1947, old Covington Grammar School. - -Mr. PIC. Probably. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that your impression at the time that he was in school, -he is now 7 years old? - -Mr. PIC. I think he had to be in school or they came and got him. My -next note says that sometime between January 1947 until May 1947 Mr. -Ekdahl and my mother were reunited. Robert and I---- - -Mr. JENNER. Had she returned to---- - -Mr. PIC. To Fort Worth. She didn't return to Fort Worth. They moved -to Fort Worth. We had never been to Fort Worth before that except in -Benbrook. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. This was from Benbrook, Tex., to Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. Right. This address I don't remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the address 1505 Eighth Avenue, Fort Worth, refresh -your recollection? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mr. PIC. OK. During that summer her and Mr. Ekdahl had their ins and -outs. - -Mr. JENNER. You were home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was assistant manager of an ice cream parlor. Now -let's go back further than that. When we first got there I got a job -for the summer at Walgreen's, and I worked there for a couple of weeks -before they fired me. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now 15 years old? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. And while I was working there I met this other -boy, his name was Sammy, his last name I don't remember, he was from -California. He was working in Walgreen's in Fort Worth, also. So, after -I lost my job at Walgreen's I got this other job, assistant manager of -Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor which was on Eighth Avenue, about 6 blocks -from the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe that house, please. - -Mr. PIC. It was the second house from the corner. On the corner lived -the McLeans who was an attorney and I think he was her attorney or -his brother was her attorney in her divorce proceedings. They had a -couple of boys we became friendly with. The house itself was a brick, I -remember brick with a garage in the back. I think there was an upstairs -or side. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe the neighborhood, please. - -Mr. PIC. I would say it would be middle class. - -Mr. JENNER. It was comparable to the neighborhood you lived in at 4801 -Victor in Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. I was assistant manager of this Tex-Gold Ice Cream -Parlor. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Robert doing? - -Mr. PIC. Nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't work? - -Mr. PIC. I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. That is right, he was playing around with girls at that time. - -Like I said, my mother and Mr. Ekdahl were having problems. It would -seem they would have a fight about every other day and he would leave -and come back. Well, it seems one night, as I was returning from work, -I think we closed the store about 10 o'clock, Mr. Ekdahl and she drove -up and told me that they wouldn't be home that night, that they were -going downtown to the Worth Hotel. This was one of their reunions, and -this was one of their longer separation periods. - -So, I went back and I told Lee and Robert, and this seemed to really -elate Lee, this made him really happy that they were getting back -together. Mr. Ekdahl, while Robert and I were at the academy would -write us, he was a great one for writing poetry. He would send us a -poem about ourselves or something, treated us real swell. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. I--what is your impression of Mr. Ekdahl, did Lee like him? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your definite impression that he liked him. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think Lee found in him the father he never had. He -had treated him real good and I am sure that Lee felt the same way, I -know he did. He felt the same way about it, because Mr. Ekdahl treated -all of us like his own children. - -Mr. JENNER. There appears to be in the file at Chamberlain-Hunt -Military Academy a letter from Mr. Ekdahl to your--to you boys dated -August 1946, carrying a return address of the Fayette Hotel on Third -Street of Fort Worth. - -Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This would be at the time when your mother was living in -Covington. During that period. - -Mr. PIC. I didn't know about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of it? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know where Mr. Ekdahl was when she was in Covington. I -know he was in the Fort Worth-Dallas area is all I knew. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother and Ekdahl, this incident you mentioned, you -mentioned that because it impressed you that they were getting back -together again, more friendly? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I mentioned it because it impressed Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. I think it impressed him more than it did either of the older -boys. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur during that summer? - -Mr. PIC. A whole bunch of stuff. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mr. PIC. I think this is the same summer when we made the raid. I don't -know if you know about the raid or not. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't think so. - -Mr. PIC. Well, this guy Sammy that I knew had another--knew a couple, -a young married couple named Marvin and Goldie, I don't remember -their last names, sir, and Sammy and I were friends, Sammy lived in a -downtown hotel, and Marvin and Goldie had a house somewhere in the Fort -Worth area. So we became friendly the four of us, and then they would -come over to my house, and they got to know my mother and everything. -Well, after they broke up again, after this last incident. - -Mr. JENNER. This is still during the summer of 1947? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is still during the summer, my mother had -strong suspicions that Mr. Ekdahl was seeing another woman and she -was following him, I don't know how. I know she had the lead, she knew -where the woman lived and everything. - -So, one night Marvin, Goldie, Sammy, my mother and I all piled into -this young couple's car, went over to these apartments, and Sammy acted -as a messenger, and knocked on the door and said, "Telegram" for this -woman, whoever she was. I don't remember the name. When she opened -the door, my mother pushed her way in, this woman was dressed in a -nightgown negligee, Mr. Ekdahl was seated in the living room in his -shirt sleeves and she made a big fuss about this. She's got him now and -all this stuff. That is about it. Well, that is all to that incident. - -In September, Robert--well, in August--Robert and I in September -returned to Chamberlain-Hunt, this is September 1947. During the school -year 1947-48 I was informed about divorce proceedings. Christmas -holidays, 1947, Robert and I returned to the house on Eighth Avenue in -Fort Worth and those are the pictures of Lee sitting on the bike, it is -in that time period. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's identify those. I hand you Pic Exhibit Nos. 52 and 53. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was taken during that time period. This is the -front lawn of the house on Eighth Avenue and the white house in the -background would be that of the attorney Mr. McLean. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take those pictures? - -Mr. PIC. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take the pictures? - -Mr. PIC. My brother Robert and I each had a box camera we received--no, -we had the box camera before that. We took it with our box camera. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer those exhibits in evidence. - -(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 52 and 53 were marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Ekdahl living in the home at that time? - -Mr. PIC. We did not see him during those holidays. - -Mr. JENNER. You returned to the academy following the Christmas -vacation? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you continued on through the end of that school year, -did you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to May 1948. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your impressions of Lee, he is now getting to -be 8 or 9 years old, his attitudes and course of conduct, and his -relationships with other children, either in the neighborhood or at -school. - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir; when we were home, Robert and I, of course, that -was the only time we seen Lee, he would tag along with us to the movies -and everything. He did what we did, got in the same trouble we did and -so forth. I don't remember observing him with the other children. I had -my own problems at the age of 14. We did know that during the school -year of 1947-48, divorce proceedings were going to take place shortly. - -We returned from Chamberlain-Hunt in May 1948, to a house I don't -remember the address of, sir, but we were back down in the lower class -again. - -Mr. JENNER. The house at---- - -Mr. PIC. It was right slap next to the railroad tracks. - -Mr. JENNER. 3300 Willing Street, Fort Worth. - -Mr. PIC. If that is next to the railroad tracks, that is it. I remember -we had to listen to the trains going back and forth. She had moved in -this house a couple or 3 months prior to us returning from school. - -Mr. JENNER. The divorce had taken place in the meantime? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; it had not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Ekdahl in this lower class house? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see him during that summer? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir--yes, sir. But not prior to May 1948. I seen him later -during the summer. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. You and Robert were home during that summer of 1948, -were you? - -Mr. PIC. May I continue? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. When we returned home I seen this house and my first -impressions were that we are back to where we were. Lee had a dog that -a woman had given him, I think it is the same dog we have pictures -of, and I kind of had the feeling that our days at Chamberlain-Hunt -were ended even though it didn't come officially. Then sometime in the -summer of 1948, the divorce took place in Tarrant County, city of Fort -Worth. I had to testify. I think they attempted to put Lee on the stand -but he said that he wouldn't know right from wrong and the truth from a -falsehood so they excused him as a witness being he was under age. - -I don't remember my testimony completely. I do remember that my mother -had made the statement that if Mr. Ekdahl ever hit her again that she -would send me in there to beat him up or, something which I doubt that -I could have done. - -I was told by her that she was contesting the divorce so that he would -still support her. She lost, he won. The divorce was granted. I was -also told that there was a settlement of about $1,200 and she stated -that just about all of this went to the lawyer. Right after this is -when she purchased the house in Benbrook, Tex., the little house. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe that house. - -Mr. PIC. It was an L-shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her -bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. -She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room -in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this -house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the street you were on in Benbrook; this -first house? - -Mr. PIC. There were no streets. We used a post office box number up at -the post office there. Because I was sending away for stamps at the -time from different companies, and I was collecting stamps and I would -go pick up the mail at the post office. - -Mr. JENNER. The first house in Benbrook was on Granbury Road, that -is your recollection? That is the one you have already mentioned -heretofore? - -Mr. PIC. Granbury Road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way -far south of town on Granbury Road, then that is it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, there is a letter in the file at the Hunt Military -Academy in October of 1945 informing them that a new address would be -Granbury Road, Route 5, Box 567 in Benbrook. - -Mr. PIC. That is the one further south of Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the first one? - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. The house you are now mentioning in Benbrook was the summer -of 1948 is different from the first one? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. You can't remember the street address? - -Mr. PIC. There was no street address. This was the first and only house -built there. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. They just built up this area and she got the very first house. -Two pictures there, Lee and Lee's dog and this is taken at the house in -Benbrook, that house. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you select those, please? - -Mr. PIC. These were taken in Covington. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, the witness has referred to two pictures marked -John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51. Those were taken when? - -Mr. PIC. It would be the summer of 1946 at Covington, La. - -Mr. JENNER. And those pictures are pictures of whom? - -Mr. PIC. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. Holding a fish. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51. - -(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51 were marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. The witness has now handed me two pictures, Pic Exhibits -Nos. 54 and 55 one of which shows a young boy with a black-and-white -dog, and the other shows with a house in the background. The other -shows a house in the background and a black-and-white dog in front and -an automobile. Could you decipher, referring to the exhibit numbers, -the handwriting appearing at the top of each of those? You are looking -at Exhibit what now? - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 55, sir, shows Lee's dog and the family car. -This car belonged to us, that is why I brought it. The house in the -background was the one and only grocery store, groceteria, whatever you -want to call it, and laundromat in the area. This is where we did all -of our food buying. - -Mr. JENNER. Shopping? - -Mr. PIC. As far as the neighborhood was concerned. - -Mr. JENNER. There is some writing at the top of the picture; what does -it say? - -Mr. PIC. This says "Blackie, 1949." - -Mr. JENNER. Blackie was the name of the dog? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Take that other exhibit and tell us what it was. - -Mr. PIC. This was the same dog Lee had in 1948 when we returned from -the school. Exhibit No. 54 shows the same store in the background and -Lee Harvey Oswald, and a dog named Blackie. And to the right of the -picture is the roof and corner of the house. - -Mr. JENNER. The house in which you lived? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55. - -(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 were marked for identification.) - -Mr. PIC. After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex., and -then she was either working at or just got the job at Leonard Bros., -Fort Worth, department store, Fort Worth, Tex. - -At this time Robert and I were informed that we would not return to -Chamberlain-Hunt in the fall. This, I think, was the first time that I -actually recall any hostility towards my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. On your part? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was quite a blow to me because we did want to -go back. I had 2 more years in high school and I was going to be in the -11th grade and I did want to finish there. - -Mr. JENNER. How did Robert react to that? - -Mr. PIC. He felt the same way, sir. He wanted to go back. But we were -informed because of the monetary situation it would be impossible for -us to go back. In fact, my mother informed me that the best thing for -me to do was not return to school but to get a job and help the family -supplement its income. - -Mr. JENNER. That is withdraw from school entirely? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was 16 at this time. In September, Lee and Robert -returned to school, and I went to work. I obtained a job at Everybody's -Department Store which belonged to Leonard Bros. I was a shoe stock boy -at the salary of $25 a week. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pay some of that money to your mother? - -Mr. PIC. I think at least $15 out of every pay check I did. - -Mr. JENNER. $15 a week? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think my take-home pay was $22.50 after taxes. -Which left me $7.50 to ride back and forth on the bus with. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you continue to live in this home in Benbrook? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; about the same time that I went to work and Lee and -Robert returned to school is when my mother bought the house at 7408 -Ewing. - -Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. It was just impossible for her and I to go -to work and leave them out in the sticks, but being we moved on Ewing -they could walk to school. In fact, I left for work earlier than she -did, a couple of hours, in fact. - -Mr. JENNER. Had Lee attended school in Benbrook, Tex.? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; not in the little house because we moved in the -summer and moved out in the early fall. - -Mr. JENNER. Had he attended a day school or a nursery school in -Benbrook, Tex., at anytime to your knowledge over this period of years? - -Mr. PIC. During the summer, sir, my mother worked at Leonard Bros., the -three boys were left alone at home. - -Mr. JENNER. What about the previous years? - -Mr. PIC. She didn't work the previous years. She was still married to -Mr. Ekdahl. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that. I wonder if he went to nursery -school--when you first went to Benbrook, Tex., when you were on -Granbury Road? - -Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know that, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no impression? - -Mr. PIC. That I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You now started to work in the fall of 1948. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The family moves into Fort Worth at 7408 Ewing Street. - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Robert enter school in Fort Worth. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? Do you remember the school, one would be a -grammar school and one a junior high school. - -Mr. PIC. I think Robert went to Sterling Junior High School. In fact, -she would drive him there in the morning, and Lee was going to Ridglea, -West Ridglea Elementary School, something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. What happened to Lee? You were working. - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Robert was in school. - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee was in school. - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Robert come home from school to take care of Lee when -he finished? - -Mr. PIC. Lee returned home before Robert did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he do? - -Mr. PIC. I have no idea, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother was at work? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He would just come home and wait until somebody came home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; there was no TV at that time so---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was he--what about his habits in that respect? Did--your -mother taught him to return home immediately and to stay in the house -until she arrived? - -Mr. PIC. I am sure he always did, sir, knowing his personality. He was -not the type to goof off in things like this. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies on his part to do heavy -reading at this stage of his life? - -Mr. PIC. He always read a lot, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He did? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his--was he gregarious or not? Did he exhibit -tendencies to be with other people and children in the neighborhood or -the contrary? - -Mr. PIC. Not too much, sir. There weren't that many children his age -in the neighborhood. In fact, most of them were my age and my brother -Robert's. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this age gap between you and Lee and between Lee and -your brother Robert affect your relationships with him now that you had -reached the age you were now 16, Robert was 14, and Lee was 9. - -Mr. PIC. We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, -we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work -at sunup and returned at dark myself. - -In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young -teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some -reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted -to do this, and my mother thought it would be a real good way to -supplement the income. So---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get paid for this service? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, -something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; -something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was -McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17. - -Mr. JENNER. But you were not in fact 17? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. -Can we go off the record? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. PIC. OK, so I joined the Marine Corps Reserve sometime in October -1948. I was attached to the 2d, 155th Military Howitzer Battalion, -U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Fort Worth, Tex. About that time I started -thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, -I was going to go back to school. So in January 1949 I went back to -school and finished my high school education. - -Mr. JENNER. To what school did you return? - -Mr. PIC. I attended Arlington Heights High School, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you work after school? Did you do anything to -supplement your income? - -Mr. PIC. I was able to retain my job at Everybody's as a stock boy for -about 1 month on this part-time basis but at the end of February they -informed me there was no way I could be kept on a part-time basis so -I left the job and I then got a job at Burt's shoestore. At Burt's -shoestore I was working part time but really making more than full time -because I was a stock boy at $15 and all the commissions I could make -in their stockroom plus all day Saturday. - -Mr. JENNER. Selling shoes? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your mother doing at this time? - -Mr. PIC. I believe at this time, sir, she was working at Sterling's -Department Store in Fort Worth after leaving Leonard Bros., before I -left Everybody's, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Robert working after school? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; he was working at the A & P. - -Mr. JENNER. Had he been working at the A & P after school from the -previous fall? - -Mr. PIC. This would be 1949. February 1949, and I am sure he was -working at A & P and going to school at that time, some time during -that period. He and I were both working and going to school, both. - -So, in January 1949, I returned to high school, Arlington Heights High -School, Fort Worth, Tex., and was a junior, 11th grade there. - -The school session ended and then I attended summer school to make up -for what I had lost at Paschal High School, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. P-a-s-k-a-l? - -Mr. PIC. P-a-s-c-h-a-l, sir; is the way they spell it, sir. I still had -the job at Burt's. So I attended summer school at Paschal, the summer -of 1949. September of 1949---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, what did Lee do now? Had he been in school in -the fall and winter of 1948 and the winter and spring of 1949? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, vacation is here. What did he do during the -summer? You went to school, and you worked at Burt's, what was he doing? - -Mr. PIC. Playing around home. And going to this Camp Carter that we ran -across in the letter, I guess, I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Robert doing during the summer? - -Mr. PIC. He was working at the A & P, sir; I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Were both of you boys contributing to the support of your -mother during this period? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Both of you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you continuing to give your mother the $15 a week you -had started to give her in the fall of 1948? - -Mr. PIC. Well, as far as I am concerned, being that I had no set -income, I worked on a guaranteed salary of $15 plus commissions my pay -might fluctuate between $20, $35 a week depending on how good a week I -had. And I pro-rated this accordingly with her. - -Mr. JENNER. And was Robert contributing something as well? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee didn't work at any time? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever recall Lee up through this time through the -summer of 1949 doing any work? - -Mr. PIC. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He is now 10 years old? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't have any paper routes or do the things that a -10-year-old sometimes does? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the fall of 1949. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; September 1949, I decided--well, let's go back to -when I went back to high school. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. It is January of 1949. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee was at Ridglea. - -Mr. PIC. OK. I figured since I was smart enough to decide to go back -to high school and my mother tried to talk me out of it I felt it was -my own doing and therefore it was my own responsibility, so I decided -since that is the way she felt and that was the way I felt I would sign -my own report cards and take care of my own notes and everything. - -My hostility towards her increased at this time because she pushed me -to work and make money, and I knew an education, as much as I could get -would be the best thing for me. - -Since I took on the responsibility of going back to school I figured I -could take care of the rest of it and I wanted nothing from her in this -regard. This I did. I signed my own report card, wrote my own notes -when I played hooky and missed school. - -Mr. JENNER. Signing her name? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; so in---- - -Mr. JENNER. By the way what kind of a student were you? - -Mr. PIC. I was a pretty good student at Chamberlain-Hunt. I had an A-B -average at Chamberlain-Hunt, I believe, I did not do too good in the -public schools, it was a little bit different, in Chamberlain-Hunt. The -classes being a little larger, no individualized concern, just mass -teaching. This was a little hard for me to adjust to. I did, I think I -had a B or C average at Arlington Heights. - -My summer school session, I think I maintained a B-C average. Maybe an -A in one subject. So that in the 1949, the summer of 1949, I went to -Paschal High School for the summer session, and I decided at this time -that I liked Paschal better than Arlington Heights, so I fixed up my -own transfer papers and I transferred to Paschal High School in the -fall of 1949, which I did enjoy the school better. - -Arlington Heights was rather a snobbish school, the rich kids went -there and everything, and being I was enrolled in what was called -distributive education which means you go to school and work part time -you are kind of looked down upon in these type schools. But in Paschal -it wasn't that way. The kids weren't snobbish and they weren't so high -class, the majority of them. - -I didn't do too good that particular year. I was working pretty hard, -and I think I flunked one subject. So right after the Christmas -holidays 1949, I was coming towards my 18th birthday and I decided I -had just about finished school and I would be graduated, if I passed -everything I would, and I decided to join the service, the Coast Guard, -and then I processed my paper work, and 3 days prior to graduation I -quit school and joined the Coast Guard. - -At this time to get in the Coast Guard was rather hard to do. You had -to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show -up for it you didn't get in maybe for 6 months or so. I joined the -Coast Guard because it was the hardest service to get into. I wasn't -interested in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Navy. I took the one -that was hardest, the hardest requirement and I got into it. - -So, in January, approximately 25 January 1950 I joined the Coast Guard, -and left for Cape May, N.J. I did not see Robert, Lee, or my mother -until October 1950, 9 months later. - -Mr. JENNER. October of 1959? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; 1950. 1950. - -Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that or probe that any further, Lee -returned to school in the fall of 1949? - -Mr. PIC. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. He was still at Ridglea Elementary, then? - -Mr. PIC. As far as I know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his general attitude and his activities during -this period 1948, 1949, through the summer of 1949. - -Mr. PIC. Sir; I was 17 years old, I wasn't interested in what an -8-9-year old kids activities were in school. I mean I had girls on my -mind and other things like that, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. To be honest with you. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course. What was your impression of him at that -time? - -Mr. PIC. He would get into his trouble, and maybe he would have -trouble with a neighbor now and then about walking across their lawn -or something. I remember once there was a fight on the bus because of -Lee that my brother Robert got beat up because. Robert probably would -remember that better than I did. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know whether he mentioned that. - -Mr. PIC. I know he got his rear end whipped because of Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -You entered the Coast Guard, and then you didn't see either of your -brothers or your mother from the time of your enlistment in January of -1950. - -Mr. PIC. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Until when? - -Mr. PIC. October 1950, sir. Early October 1950. - -Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion? - -Mr. PIC. I went back home on leave, back to Fort Worth on leave, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you home on leave? - -Mr. PIC. I think I took 20 days' leave. I think I stayed there 15, 16, -something like that, about 2 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the general atmosphere around the house at that -time? - -Mr. PIC. Well, everybody was glad to see me. I was--well, I come home -with a couple of hundred dollars, you know a sailor off the high seas -always saves his money and the mother right away wanted to hold it for -me and so she conned me into that, and she let me have a few dollars of -my own. - -Then I spent most of my time looking up old girl friends and things, -and visiting Mr. Conway. He and I were always playing chess together. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Conway, I took his deposition. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, very nice man. - -Mr. JENNER. He spoke of playing chess with you a great deal. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I had forgotten that. Lived across the street. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; about five doors, four doors to the right of us. - -Mr. JENNER. On the same side of the street? - -Mr. PIC. Same side. - -Mr. JENNER. Hiram Conway. - -Mr. PIC. Hiram P. Conway. - -Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the service? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. I reported back to my ship. - -Mr. JENNER. When next did you see your mother or Lee or Robert? - -Mr. PIC. August 1952, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When you were back in the fall of 1950, was Lee in school? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as far as I know. - -Mr. JENNER. At Ridglea Elementary? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as far as I know. - -Mr. JENNER. Robert was still in school. He is now 16-1/2 years of age? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know if he was. Going through those letters there was -a time period he was in school, out of school. I don't really remember. -I don't think he was in school when I returned on leave. - -Mr. JENNER. What was he doing? - -Mr. PIC. A & P, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Working. Are you now and were you then aware of the fact -that your father contributed to your support during all the years -actually until you reached your 18th birthday? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is when I decided to make it all on my own -since she reminded me of the fact that she wouldn't get no money after -I was 18 so that was one thing that contributed to me deciding to leave. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during all these years of what the amount of -that contribution was? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. But you were aware of the fact that your father was making -contributions? - -Mr. PIC. I was always told it wasn't enough, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Apart from that you were aware of the fact your father was -making contributions? - -Mr. PIC. Right. She reminded me the day I became 18 that the payments -stopped right then and there. - -Mr. JENNER. The fact is that they did. - -Mr. PIC. I know. I have no reason to doubt that. What was the amount? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. When you were in the service did you make any allotment to -your mother? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you send her any money at any time while you were in -the service? - -Mr. PIC. Quite frequently, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. Tell us as best you can the amount. - -Mr. PIC. When I was in boot camp from January 1950 to May 1950, the -only amount they paid us was $15 every 2 weeks and they held back the -rest of our pay until we would graduate and then we would have money to -go to our next station with. They do this to recruits. I don't remember -if I sent any of this 15 or not, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you send any of the excess when you got it? - -Mr. PIC. In those letters I presented you could add them up and see how -much I sent in the year 1950. I think I sent $10, $20 at a time when I -had it. I was making $80 a month. How much could I send and still be a -sailor? - -Mr. JENNER. This is not in any sense a criticism, sergeant. All I am -doing is seeking some facts. - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir, in the letters she refers to 10, 20, 40, sometimes. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48 and 59, and referring -to No. 48, at the bottom of which is written Lee, age 2-1/2. Would you -identify that, please? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is Lee Harvey Oswald age 2-1/2 as the picture -states written in the handwriting of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. This -picture was taken at Lillian Murret's at Sherwood Forest Drive. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your aunt's home in Sherwood Forest, New Orleans. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am sure of that. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you John Pic Exhibit No. 49 which--would you -identify that? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, I guess at -the same time, with a dog, and I am sure this was taken at Lillian -Murret's in Sherwood Forest Drive. - -Mr. JENNER. At the same time that John Pic Exhibit No. 48 was taken? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I hand you now John Pic Exhibit No. 56, a -photograph of a young man. Would you identify that as to time and place -if you can, and age, his age, the subject's age? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald which I believe to -have been taken when he was in about the second or third grade. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be when you were living in Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth, yes; 7408 Ewing. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I hand you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 57 and 58. I don't know -which depicts this young man at the younger age. Take the younger one. - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 57, sir, I believe was taken either in late -1951 or early 1952, and it shows a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald -approximately how he looked when he came to New York to stay with my -wife and I in August of 1952. - -Exhibit No. 58, to my best recollection, I think, is a picture sent to -me by my mother in approximately 1954, 1955, maybe in 1956, from New -Orleans, La. It is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. It is after they returned to New Orleans? - -Mr. PIC. I am pretty sure that picture was taken in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, -49, 56, 57, and 58. - -(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58 were marked for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances surrounding and leading up to -your mother and Lee coming to New York City in the summer of 1952? - -Mr. PIC. I think this was brought on because Robert joined the service -sometime previous to that. That would be about right, April 1952, did -he join the service. I don't know when. He wasn't there at the time. He -was in the service when they came. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. He entered the service as soon as he reached his -majority. - -Mr. PIC. So that would be April 1952. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an incident respecting, between Robert and your -mother and some young lady in which, in whom he was interested just -before he entered the service? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You came to know about that? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By what means? - -Mr. PIC. By way of my mother, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, what was it? - -Mr. PIC. Robert had been seeing this girl and she had a club foot. My -mother didn't feel that they should be married. He wanted to marry her, -and she conned him out of it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Had you received any letters from Robert on that -subject at anytime? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Between the time you were home in October of 1950 and the -summer of 1952, had you seen your mother or either of your brothers? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, my question to you was what led up to and -what were the circumstances involving or surrounding the visit of your -mother and Lee to New York in the summer of 1952. - -Mr. PIC. Well, Robert had joined the service in April 1952. It was the -summer months, so Lee was not in school, and the trip to New York was -feasible, being Lee would have no schooltime lost, it was my impression -and also my wife's--meanwhile, I was married, you know, if you are -interested in this. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am. - -Mr. PIC. August 18, 1951, I married my wife Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. - -Mr. JENNER. You had met her after you had entered the service and while -you were stationed in the New York area? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At this time, that is the summer of 1952 you were living -where? - -Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children at that time? - -Mr. PIC. In August 1952; yes, sir. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Your first child was born? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; John Edward Pic, Jr. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after your mother and Lee -arrived. - -Mr. PIC. Before, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. He was born 14 May 1952, approximately 3 months before they -arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you invite your mother and Lee to come to -New York? - -Mr. PIC. The impression that my wife and myself had was they -were coming to visit, sir, and we had nothing against this. My -mother-in-law, we lived with her at the time, she was visiting her -other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, in Norfolk, Va., she was staying -with them, so we had the room for them. - -Mr. JENNER. But that was your mother's apartment or home? - -Mr. PIC. Mother-in-law's. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it an apartment or a home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was a box, freight-car type railroad apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. One room in back of the other? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So you were then guests of your mother-in-law at that -particular time, that is, living in her home or apartment? And your -impression was that your mother and Lee they were just visiting for -the summer months or for a period, to visit for the summer months or a -period during the summer that was your definite impression. - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened? - -Mr. PIC. At this time I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard, Port -Security Unit, Ellis Island, New York. My status there, I was, I worked -once every fourth night, also every fourth weekend so I wasn't home all -the time. When they came I took leave so I could spend more time with -them. - -Mr. JENNER. "I took Lee," would you elaborate on that? What do you mean -you took Lee. - -Mr. PIC. I am allowed 30 days leave a year and I took off, I took a -week or so, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. I misunderstood you, I thought you said you took Lee but -you said you took leave. - -Mr. PIC. Leave. - -Mr. JENNER. You took 30 days leave. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; maybe a week or two. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, you were with them or tried to be -with them during that 2-week period. - -Mr. PIC. Just a minute, sir. That is where I began my notes. August -1952, my mother and Lee came to New York. They brought with them quite -a bit of luggage, and their own TV set. On my way home I had to walk -about 8 to 10 blocks to the subway, and Lee walked up to meet me as I -was walking home, I told my wife and Lee decided to go up and meet me. -We met in the street and I was real glad to see him and he was real -glad to see me. We were real good friends. I think a matter of a few -days or so I took my leave. Lee and I visited some of the landmarks -of New York, the Museum of Natural History, Polk's Hobby Shop on 5th -Avenue. I took him on the Staten Island ferry, and several other -excursions we made. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir; it wasn't but a matter of days before I could sense -they moved in to stay for good, and this not being my apartment, but my -mother-in-law's apartment, my wife kind of frowned upon this a little -bit. We didn't really mind as long as my mother-in-law wasn't there, -but she was due back in a matter of a month or so. - -During my leave I was under the impression that I may get out of the -service in January of 1953, when my enlistment was up, so I went around -to several colleges. My mother drove me to these colleges, Fordham -University, for one, and Brooklyn, some college in Brooklyn, a couple -of other ones I inquired about. I remember one conversation in the car -that she reminded me that even though Margy was my wife, she wasn't -quite as good as I was, and things like this. She didn't say too many -good things about my wife. Well, naturally, I resented this, because I -put my wife before my mother any day. - -Things were pretty good during the time I was on leave. When I went -back to work I would come home my wife would tell me about some little -problem they would have. The first problem that I recollect was that -there was no support for the grocery bill whatsoever. I don't think I -was making more than $150 a month, and they were eating up quite a bit, -and I just casually mentioned that and my mother got very much upset -about it. So every night I got home and especially the nights I was -away and I would come home the next day my wife would have more to tell -me about the little arguments. It seems it is my wife's impression that -whenever there was an argument that my mother antagonized Lee towards -hostility against my wife. - -My wife liked Lee. My wife and I had talked several times that it would -be nice if Lee would stay with us alone, and we wouldn't mind having -him. But we never bothered mentioning this because we knew it was an -impossibility. - -It got toward schooltime and they had their foothold in the house and -he was going to enroll in the neighborhood school, and they planned to -stay with us, and I didn't much like this. We couldn't afford to have -them, and took him up to enroll in this school. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; my mother did. I think this is a public school in New -York City located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and -Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him. - -Mr. ELY. When you visited these colleges, had you received credit for -finishing high school somehow? - -Mr. PIC. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything to the effect that the reason why -your mother and Lee had come to New York had anything to do with Lee's -being given some sort of mental tests? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a period of time just before the enrollment of -Lee in the New York Public School, that he attended for about a month a -Lutheran denominational school? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. I am not up to that yet. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. - -Mr. PIC. At about the same time that Lee was enrolled in school that -we had the big trouble. It seems that there was an argument about the -TV set one day, and--between my wife and my mother. It seems that -according to my wife's statement that my mother antagonized Lee, being -very hostile toward my wife and he pulled out a pocketknife and said -that if she made any attempt to do anything about it that he would use -it on her, at the same time Lee struck his mother. This perturbed my -wife to no end. So, I came home that night, and the facts were related -to me. - -Mr. JENNER. When the facts were related to you was your mother present, -Lee present, your wife present? If not, who was present? - -Mr. PIC. I think my wife told me this in private, sir. I went and asked -my mother about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother was home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she was home. - -Mr. JENNER. You went and spoke with your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Lee present when you spoke to your mother? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say to your mother and what did she say to you? - -Mr. PIC. I asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it -off as not being as serious as my wife put it. That Lee did not pull a -pocketknife on her. That they just had a little argument about what TV -channel they were going to watch. Being as prejudiced as I am I rather -believed my wife rather than my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to Lee about the incident? - -Mr. PIC. I am getting to that, sir. So I approached Lee on this -subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became -real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. When this -happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are -going to leave whether they liked it or not, and I think Lee had the -hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting -thrown out of the house as they put it. - -When I attempted to talk to Lee about this, he ignored me, and I was -never able to get to the kid again after that. He didn't care to hear -anything I had to say to him. So in a matter of a few days they packed -up and left, sir. They moved to the Bronx somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see them from time to time thereafter? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, I can continue if you wish. Unless you want to stop there -and ask me something about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, at this point, yes, I would like to ask you this: You -hadn't seen them from October of 1950 until the summer of 1952. Did you -notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his -mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward -others? - -Mr. PIC. He was definitely the boss. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us on what you base that? - -Mr. PIC. I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my -mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. He -had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well -together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got -along very well. She always reminded me of this. - -Mr. JENNER. Your wife reminded you of that? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in -your home, then the attitude changed? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident -occurred, how had your relations with Lee been? - -Mr. PIC. Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions -throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and -spend as much time as I could with him. - -Mr. JENNER. You found him to have--he was interested in that sort of -thing? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History, -anything like that he liked. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to -have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and -did as he wished? - -Mr. PIC. Not until the knife pulling incident. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion? - -Mr. PIC. I attempted to, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from -time to time? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter. - -Mr. JENNER. He would not. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me. - -Mr. JENNER. There was an absolute, complete change then in his -relations with you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a marked one? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct. I have a couple of more incidents in which I -can relate that even more so. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you do that? - -Mr. PIC. Well, the day they moved out they had done this before I came -home from work. - -Mr. JENNER. They had moved out before you came home from work? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after -I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became -hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I -able to communicate with him in any way." - -Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your -notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then -give in your own words the facts. - -Mr. PIC. Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider -us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother -relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite -a bit of me. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, the relationship between you and your -brother Lee, and your brother Robert, all three of you, had been a -cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among -brothers? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your nickname? - -Mr. PIC. Pic. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your brother Robert's nickname? - -Mr. PIC. In Chamberlain-Hunt we referred to him as "Mouse". I think -that hung on a while after that. - -Mr. JENNER. What nickname did he have before that? - -Mr. PIC. None that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did he get that? Was he a quiet boy? - -Mr. PIC. He was the littlest one in Chamberlain-Hunt and that was why -they called him that. - -Mr. JENNER. I see, size. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever have a nickname? - -Mr. PIC. Not that I know of, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling, did you, up until this incident at -least that Lee is a young boy, 7 years younger than you, and his -brother Robert 5 years older than he, and he looked up to both of you -as older brothers? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had, both you and your brother Robert had love in -your heart for your brother Lee? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you felt he reciprocated that? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the relationship between yourself and your brother -Robert was cordial? - -Mr. PIC. They always have, and still are, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I may say to you that he so testified. All right. - -Mr. PIC. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was -late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about -somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert -came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx. - -Mr. JENNER. To visit whom? - -Mr. PIC. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. To visit whom? - -Mr. PIC. To visit my mother and my brother. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother's wife accompany him? - -Mr. PIC. He wasn't married at that time, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He wasn't married? - -Mr. PIC. I think this was, his leave was probably in October or -November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We -visited their apartment in the Bronx. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where did your brother stay? - -Mr. PIC. I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New -York. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event he did not stay with you. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think -so. Maybe for a night or two. We went out, my wife fixed him up with a -date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of -times. So, we were invited up there for this Sunday dinner. So it was -my mother, Lee, Robert, my wife, myself, and my son. - -Robert was already there when we arrived. When Lee seen me or my wife -he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and -didn't join us whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not join you for dinner? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. Didn't speak to me or my wife. - -Mr. JENNER. That put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you--he didn't speak to you. Did you attempt to speak -with him? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he answer you? - -Mr. PIC. He shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. He wasn't -interested in anything I had to say. - -Mr. JENNER. He was definitely hostile to you and to Mrs. Pic? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that continued throughout the entire visit that evening -or was it an evening? - -Mr. PIC. It was early afternoon until dusk. We did have an infant son -we had to get home. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a Sunday or Saturday? - -Mr. PIC. I am sure it was a Sunday. In January 1950---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, what did you observe with respect to the -attitude of Lee toward his mother on that occasion? - -Mr. PIC. When he was eating he came and got what he wanted, picked up -his plate, went to the living room and watched TV. He decided what he -wanted to eat and maybe she helped him. I don't really remember too -much about it. I know he did not eat with us. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice his relation, if any, with Robert? - -Mr. PIC. From what I was told later and so forth when I wasn't present -him and Robert got along real good. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. My question was did you observe on this occasion. - -Mr. PIC. There was nothing to observe while I was present, sir. He was -completely withdrawn from the crowd. - -Mr. JENNER. He withdrew from everybody? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. Personally, I didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or -my wife. I still don't know this fact. Maybe it was her, maybe it was -me, maybe it was both of us. - -In January 1953, I did reenlist in the Coast Guard. I decided to stay -in rather than quit, and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. From the time of that October visit of Robert to January -1953, did you see Lee at any time during that period? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not. I seen my mother on several occasions. She -was working on 42d Street in a Lerner's Dress Shop. I guess I would see -her maybe once every 3 weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my -wife and I, to see her. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say about Lee during that time when you saw -her on those occasions? - -Mr. PIC. Whenever I seen her, whether I was alone or with my wife, I -was usually alone, I went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see -my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when I -would ask her about how Lee was doing she would say, "OK" but would not -elaborate. - -Said "He is OK, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk -to or no one to do anything with." - -Mr. JENNER. During this period of time and up to January 1953, in any -of the contacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you -advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with Lee with -respect to truancy in attendance at school? - -Mr. PIC. I am not quite there, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. The answer is, I take it, that up to this point -of January 1953 you were not aware. - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to -time during that period? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, we are at January 1953, when you reenlisted in -the Coast Guard. - -Mr. PIC. That is right. So in February 1953, my wife and I were again -invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same -apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was -up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is -that right? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother -informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday -dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me -that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials -had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy -problem. - -She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or -nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to -how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there. -That is all I could suggest. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her response to that? - -Mr. PIC. Well, Lee was still the boss. If he didn't want to go see the -psychiatrist, he wasn't going. - -Mr. JENNER. She had no control over him? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were quite aware of that, were you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with her? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; she discussed it with me. I mean she told me that she -couldn't control him and so forth. This I knew. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression from anything she said to you -that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something -that had suddenly arisen or---- - -Mr. PIC. I think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time -went by. - -Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you -enlisted which was in January 1950, had there been any control problems -with respect to Lee? In other words, had you noticed this problem -developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? Cudgel your mind and -take yourself back. - -Mr. PIC. I would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary -problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with Lee by his -mother prior to 1950. She always reminded Robert and I that we were the -older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so -forth. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you and Robert do about it? - -Mr. PIC. Not much, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him? You were his older brother. He had -the love and affection for you? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to -a 13- and 15-year old kid or 14-16. There was no big troubles he got -into that any kid does. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you notice up until the time you enlisted -in January 1950, of Lee's relations with other children in the -neighborhood or his schoolmates. What was your overall impression, -first? - -Mr. PIC. To my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in -the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with. -I think most of the time he went to play with other children it was -a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age -group. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out -and play with other children? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go -out and play. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that noticeable to you? - -Mr. PIC. I wasn't there that much, sir; I was working and going to -school, both. I wasn't there to observe this. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. Except maybe on a weekend occasionally. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did notice that when they came to New York in 1952, -particularly in the fall of 1952, that by that time he had become quite -headstrong? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that his mother and your mother Marguerite, had pretty -well lost any influence or control over him? - -Mr. PIC. That is absolutely true, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we brought you up to enlistment in January -1953. - -Mr. PIC. On the occasion when we visited them in February 1953. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. At this same time in February 1953, I received orders to -go aboard ship again, so from the time period February 1953, until -September 1953, I was in and out of New York at sea. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see either your mother or Lee during that period of -time? - -Mr. PIC. I did not see Lee after the February visit, sir. I had seen -her on several occasions. - -Mr. JENNER. During this---- - -Mr. PIC. Downtown where she worked. - -Mr. JENNER. She was still working in Lerner's in the spring and summer -of 1953 or had she changed jobs? - -Mr. PIC. To my best recollection it was still Lerner's. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her working at a hosiery shop during this -period of time rather than Lerner's? - -Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. She might have been but you just don't have a recollection? - -Mr. PIC. Wherever she was working at the time, I mean she shifted jobs -quite often and it is kind of hard keeping track of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she have difficulty with her employers, get along with -fellow workers at these various shops? - -Mr. PIC. Whenever she changed jobs she always gave me a rationalized -answer. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a conclusion. Tell me what it was. - -Mr. PIC. I remember once, it may have been the Lerner shop or it may -have been this hosiery shop which you are referring to, that she told -me that they let her go because she didn't use an underarm deoderant. -That was the reason she gave me, sir. She said she couldn't do nothing -about it. She uses it but if it don't work what can she do about it. - -Other times whenever she changed jobs it was always because the next -job was better. - -Mr. JENNER. During the time, on the occasions when you saw her, which -was relatively infrequent from January of 1953 to, what is the next -date you gave, September of 1953? - -Mr. PIC. August-September 1953. - -Mr. JENNER. August of 1953, September of 1953, was there any discussion -with her about Lee? - -Mr. PIC. When I asked about him it was the same old stuff, he is -getting along better. She would tell me that he still doesn't have -anybody to confide in, things like this. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any further discussion about truancy, any -possibility of care for him by a psychiatrist? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; when I asked about this she said everything was -working out fine. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. Whenever I would meet her it would be the same old song and -dance, like hinting around I should help support her which I couldn't -afford to do, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had a wife and child by that time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your compensation? - -Mr. PIC. For what, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. In the service at this time. - -Mr. PIC. I was petty officer, second class, I guess my base pay was -maybe $190, plus extras, quarters allowances, maybe total $300 a month. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your wife still residing with your mother-in-law? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you contributing to the support of that whole -family unit? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mother-in-law, wife and child? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was paying the rent and buying the groceries. In -fact, that year I claimed my mother-in-law as a dependent on my income -tax, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, you had claimed, did you, at some point in your -service your mother as a dependent? - -Mr. PIC. In one of her letters she refers to that. I don't recollect -that, sir. I think it was prior to my joining the service that she -referred to. When I was working full time, maybe the year right after, -I don't remember, sir, that incident at all. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. Well, on these visits that I would spend with her downtown, -we would eat lunch or something on Saturday. It got old after a while -listening to her so I knew I was getting transferred to Virginia in -September, 1953, so my wife left in August of 1953 to live with her -sister until I was stationed there in September, 1953. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did her sister live? - -Mr. PIC. Norfolk, Va. And I was to be stationed at Portsmouth, Va., at -the Naval hospital there for school purposes. - -When I did finally get transferred from the ship to Portsmouth, Va., I -did not make known to my mother our whereabouts or our address. - -Mr. JENNER. Why not? - -Mr. PIC. Like I said, sir; it was getting kind of old. The only time I -had seen her would be downtown and she didn't have much to say to me -and I didn't have too much to say to her. - -Mr. JENNER. During this period of time there came about a substantially -complete rupture then between yourself and your mother? - -Mr. PIC. To a certain degree. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see your brother at any time thereafter? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in Thanksgiving 1962 when you saw him? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I can get to that. There are things happened prior -to that. - -Mr. JENNER. You did see him---- - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not see him. I seen my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right; go ahead. - -Mr. PIC. I returned from Portsmouth, Va., in April 1954, sir; and took -up residency at 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. We returned -really to 325 East 92d Street, stayed there a matter of a couple of -days until I found us a place to live in Staten Island and then my -wife and I moved over to Staten Island leaving my mother-in-law in -the apartment, being I felt because my wife had six brothers and -sisters that they could worry about her. I didn't see that it was my -responsibility much longer. My wife was the youngest child, and we -lived there almost 2 years. - -I was then assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter _Halfmoon_, which -is a weather vessel, and this is where I am in and out for 6-, 7-week -periods at a time. It was during this time that she wrote me at the -base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in New Orleans, -and you have the letters referring to this, sir. - -It was either sometime in the fall of 1955 or the winter of 1956 that -my mother called me from New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. By telephone? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then in New York? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; well, Lee was still with her, and my wife frowned -upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we -did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could -accommodate two of them. She was very upset about this that I wouldn't -have her up. There was nothing I could do about it, though. I knew if -she came up they were coming up to stay, and I didn't want a repeat -of what we had. So in February 1956, I joined the Air Force and was -stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base in New York which is about 30, 40 -miles east of New York City. In October 1956, Lee joined the Marine -Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention? - -Mr. PIC. My mother informed me of this fact. - -Mr. JENNER. By letter? - -Mr. PIC. We were writing again. So, it was just a matter of -corresponding by mail up until the Christmas holidays of 1957 when my -mother--let me make sure that date is right--I am fairly certain, sir; -that it was the Christmas holidays of 1957 rather than the Christmas -holidays of 1958--that she visited us. - -Mr. JENNER. She did come to New York? - -Mr. PIC. Right. She come to--we had moved to 104 Avenue C East Meadow, -on Long Island. I had two children but we had a 3-bedroom apartment -which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here. - -She came from Fort Worth when she arrived. Somehow or another between -New Orleans and this visit she and Lee had gone back to Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware of the fact she had returned to Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you learned that through correspondence? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. With her. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that -she was a greeter for the city of Fort Worth. She would welcome people -to town and things like this. - -Mr. JENNER. I think she was employed for a while in an organization -called Welcome Wagon. That is a national organization. - -Mr. PIC. When she was employed is when she visited us. I think this was -Christmas of 1957, is that right? - -Mr. ELY. I think that would be the same thing probably, Welcome Wagon -greets people. - -Mr. PIC. Is this 1957 when she had that job? - -Mr. JENNER. I am not sure of the date but it is true that during that, -when she returned to Fort Worth sometime along there she did have a -position of that character. - -Mr. PIC. She stayed over the Christmas holidays, left approximately the -10th of January, sometime. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have conversations here about Lee during that time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mr. PIC. Lee was in the Marine Corps, Lee was very happy to be in the -Marine Corps, Lee was proud to be in the Marine Corps. Lee loved the -Marine Corps. He just liked it. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is -December of 1957. Was he still in the service? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten -discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his -wife. - -Mr. JENNER. He was discharged in the spring of 1956-1957, rather; and -stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while. - -Mr. PIC. I don't know that. - -Mr. JENNER. Then went to Fort Worth and your mother and your brother -Lee followed and your brother Lee attended high school for about 6 or 7 -weeks in the fall of 1957 in Fort Worth, Arlington Heights High School, -and enlisted in October 1957, in the Marines. - -Mr. PIC. Lee enlisted in 1956, I believe. - -Mr. ELY. 1956. - -Mr. JENNER. 1956 was it. Then your brother Robert was discharged, -mustered out in 1956? - -Mr. PIC. That sounds about right. And stayed in Exchange Alley a short -time, didn't like it, went on to Fort Worth. - -After she left in January of 1958 we continued to communicate by mail -and every now and then a phone call. - -Then in August of 1958 I received my orders to Japan, and we left -Mitchel and departed cross country. - -Mr. JENNER. You and your wife and children? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By what, automobile? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By this time you owned an automobile? - -Mr. PIC. My second one. - -Mr. JENNER. Second one? - -Mr. PIC. I purchased my first one when I was stationed in Virginia. We -arrived in Fort Worth, approximately 28, 29 October 1958. I remember we -were in her house on Halloween night because I pulled the car up behind -and locked the gates so I would not have my hub caps stolen. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did she reside then? - -Mr. PIC. I think you ought to refresh my memory on that. It was a -little circle. Did she have an address with a little circle, some kind -of circle or something? - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have that? - -Mr. PIC. What she lived on described the street, it was a circle, -something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Her first house and apartment in New York was 325, that was -your apartment, 325 East 92. And then she moved over to 1455 Sheridan -Avenue in the Bronx, and then 825 East 179th Street in the Bronx. 3124 -West Fifth Street, Fort Worth. - -Mr. PIC. That isn't familiar. - -Mr. JENNER. It is not familiar? - -Mr. PIC. It could be it, though, I can probably find it on the map of -Fort Worth if we still have got it because I remember that place real -well. I was thrown out of there. Some people hold a grudge a long time. -Sir, that is probably it, West Fifth Street, because the location West -Fifth Street is probably about the same place. - -Mr. JENNER. You said you were thrown out of there. I assume an incident -occurred? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am getting to that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. While we were staying there, I was traveling cross country and -really didn't know where I was going or what time I would have to be -there. We were waiting for our port call to know when we would have to -be in San Francisco to catch our flight out of there, and so I had no -idea how long I would be in Fort Worth, and so I made a phone call from -there to Mitchel to try to find out, and didn't find out anything. - -Then the Sunday that we were there--well, prior to this, when we -arrived there the same day my brother Robert came over to see us. He -was then working for a milk company, Borden's Milk Co., I believe. He -was giving my mother free milk, all the extras that he had and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I -take it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was a cordial reunion, was it? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your mother working at that time? - -Mr. PIC. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I -believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I -know she was working at a candy counter. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. When we got there, my mother informed us she had no food in -the house so my wife and I went and bought a whole bunch of groceries -for our stay which we expected to do. I got in contact with some old -friends, and they invited me over for Sunday dinner the following -Sunday at their house, and being I was pressed for time I had another -Sunday dinner invitation at my brother Robert's house. My mother was -invited to this dinner. - -Mr. JENNER. At your brother's? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. He then resided at 7313 Davenport Street, I believe. Well, it -seems that my mother declined her part of the invitation, and was quite -put out that my wife and I did not decline our part because she decided -that we should spend Sunday dinner eating with her. So, my wife and -I and two children drove off to my brother Robert's house to go eat. -After we were there for about a half hour, she called us up and told me -to come get our bags, that we would have to leave. - -So, my wife and I, we left the kids at my brother Robert's because we -knew there would be a big scene with all the trimmings, and we went -back and we walked in, didn't say nothing, just packed up our bags and -she was yelling and screaming reminding us about the time we threw her -out of the apartment in New York and she was getting even with us for -this when we threw her and Lee out. - -I then informed her that I wanted nothing more to do with her and that -every time she and my wife got together, that she had nothing but bad -things to say about her. And I let her know that our relationship ends -right then and there, and since that time, sir, I have not written her, -talked to her, anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Or seen her. - -Mr. PIC. Or have seen her, except in magazines and stuff. She has sent -me a bunch of junk in the mail. During this conversation when we was -getting thrown out, I reminded her that she made nothing but trouble -for us and especially my wife, she was always on my wife. And so I owed -her a few dollars for the phone call I had made, so I gave her $10 and -this seemed to satisfy, well, probably accomplished what she set out to -do, get some money off of me one way or the other. This I how I looked -at it. This didn't upset her, after we left, after I gave her $10. So, -we went to my brother Robert's, we ate, we stayed at their house until -Tuesday morning, and we left and then went to Japan, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's suspend for dinner. - -Mr. PIC. Could I just add one thing, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. While we were there, I was informed that Lee was in Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. You were informed by your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. And that we should see him when we get there. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you advised as to where in Japan he was? - -Mr. PIC. I was given his address, sir. After arriving there it was just -a matter of a week or so I received a letter from my mother which I -never acknowledged or maybe it was my brother, it was one of the two, -saying Lee was traveling across the United States at the same time I -was. He had left Japan before I arrived in Japan. I arrived in Japan 10 -November 1958 and I don't know what date he left, sir. I never got to -see him in Japan. This would probably be a good time to suspend. - -Mr. JENNER. Before we do that, did you have any conversation with your -brother about, your brother Robert about your brother Lee while you -were there in 1958? - -Mr. PIC. I think I may have let him know how Lee acted toward me. He -didn't want nothing to do with me. The only things I heard about Lee -was that he was in the Marine Corps and he liked it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert say anything about having been in -New Orleans before he came to Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. He told me about a trip that he made to pick them up or -something down there. They called him up one time and he drove down and -got them and drove back all in the same trip. - -Mr. JENNER. That must have been the time when they left New Orleans and -came to Fort Worth. - -Mr. PIC. Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a -statement. - -Mr. JENNER. What testimony of Marilyn Murret? - -Mr. PIC. This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his -defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here, -no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew -he defected that he was in Europe. - -Mr. JENNER. Who informed you? - -Mr. PIC. Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I will go into that right after dinner. - -Mr. PIC. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. We will suspend until 7:30. - -(Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED - -The proceeding was reconvened at 7:55 p.m. - -Mr. JENNER. When we adjourned for dinner you were telling us the -incident in August, I believe it was 1958, when you visited your mother -and your brother on your way to California on your assignment to Japan. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read me the last answer of the witness, please? - -(The answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) - -Mr. JENNER. Marilyn Murret is your cousin? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. One of the children of Charles and Lillian Murret? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, did your wife and children accompany you to -Japan? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you arrived in Japan about when? - -Mr. PIC. 10 November 1958, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware before you left for Japan that Marilyn -Murret, was in Japan? - -Mr. PIC. She was not in Japan then, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You arrived in Japan and went over there -sometime while you were in Japan. By the way, first where were you -stationed? - -Mr. PIC. My military address was U.S.A.F. Hospital, Tachikawa, APO 323, -San Francisco, Calif. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard from or saw Marilyn Murret after you got there? - -Mr. PIC. Right. In approximately October-November, early November, -the end of October 1959 she called me up at the hospital, and it had -been years since I had seen her, and she told me she had come from -Australia. She was traveling around the world, and I invited her out to -the house the next weekend. - -She couldn't come during the week. She was teaching school in Japan and -as a freelance teacher working for no agency, just doing this to earn -her own traveling money. So she visited us on a Sunday, I believe. - -We talked about the family and everything. She talked about Lee, about -how proud he was to be in the Marine Corps, and he really put on a big -show about this. - -Mr. JENNER. How did she know that, did she reveal? - -Mr. PIC. She had seen him, evidently, when he was first in the Marine -Corps. She described him in uniform, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. You had the impression she had actually seen him in Japan? - -Mr. PIC. No; she wasn't in Japan the same time he was. This is a year -after I am in Japan, sir, before I had seen her. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. And she had seen him when he first joined the Marine Corps, -is my impression, sometime while he was in the Marine Corps and in the -States. - -Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that Lee had visited their home in -New Orleans? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is the impression I got. - -Mr. JENNER. Go on. - -Mr. PIC. Well, at this time, my mother was still writing to me, I never -answered any of her letters. Maybe I would receive a letter from her -every once, every 2 or 3 months. I also was aware of the fact that Lee -was going to be discharged from the Marine Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. You became aware of that through what means? - -Mr. PIC. The letters I would receive from my mother. She informed me -that Marilyn Murret--that Lee upon his discharge had gone to Europe. I -asked her how did he ever decide that, and where did he get the money -and she said he saved it while he was in the Marine Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say he had gone to Europe? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Her quote, sir, to the best of my knowledge, "Do you -know that Lee is in Europe?" I said, "No, I don't know that." I had no -way of knowing that. So I started asking her about him, and this is -what she told me that Lee had gone to Europe. - -It was that night, sir, on the 9 o'clock news that I learned that Lee -had defected. - -Mr. JENNER. You say 9 o'clock news--was that---- - -Mr. PIC. Japan time, sir, that night. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean, what source was the news? - -Mr. PIC. American Armed Forces Network. My wife and I were in bed, -and I was about half asleep, and the radio was closest to her and she -nudged me and told me, and I said, "No, it couldn't be." So the next -day it appeared in the paper. - -Mr. JENNER. What paper? - -Mr. PIC. The Stars and Stripes, sir. Then I heard it on the radio again -the next day. There were a couple or three articles in the Stars and -Stripes about his defection. And I reported to the OSI and told them -who I was, and I told them who he was. Then I got in contact with the -Embassy in Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the American Embassy? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and attempted to contact Lee. The only thing I -could get out was a telegram. I think my quote in the telegram was -"Please reconsider your actions." This, I understand, was delivered to -him at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. After this defection I received -several---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When you heard this what was your reaction? - -Mr. PIC. I didn't believe it. I mean my wife told me it was him, and -I think I stayed awake until the 10 o'clock news to hear it and they -mentioned it, and that was it, and so the next day it was in the paper -and that is when I reported to the OSI. - -Mr. JENNER. What is OSI? - -Mr. PIC. Office of Special Investigator, I believe, for the Air Force. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, after the rebroadcasts and you became convinced it -was your brother what was your reaction? - -Mr. PIC. It was hard to believe. It was just something you never expect. - -Mr. JENNER. Had he done or said anything during all your life together -which served to lead you to think, well maybe it is so that he has? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir, ever since he was born and I was old enough to -remember, I always had a feeling that some great tragedy was going to -strike Lee in some way or another, and when this happened I figured -this was it. In fact, on the very day of the assassination I was -thinking about it when I was getting ready to go to work, and just, -I was thinking about him at that time and I figured well, when he -defected and came back--that was his big tragedy. I found out it wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give me--elaborate on that. Why did you have a -feeling for some time that someday he would have, would suffer a great -tragedy? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know. It was just one of those things I can't explain. -I always had this feeling about him. Not as a kid, of course, but in my -young adulthood I thought that about him, especially after the incident -in New York. I thought this way. I had this feeling. - -Mr. JENNER. You had a feeling at any time that he was groping for -a position or station in life, that he realized was beyond his -attainment, or any resentment on his part of his station in life? - -Mr. PIC. I think he resented the fact that he never really had a -father, especially after he lost Mr. Ekdahl and his one and only chance -to get what he was looking for. Maybe that is why he looked to Robert -and I like he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marilyn Murret again? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she and I never discussed this. Those were the -orders of OSI, not to discuss it with anyone. I made them aware of her, -her presence in Japan. I don't know if they ever contacted her or not, -sir. I told them about her mentioning this to me that she knew he was -in Europe. How she knew, I don't know, sir. And everything I have read -states that no one knew he was going. - -Mr. JENNER. But she was in your home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The very day that the announcement was made? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That Lee had defected to Russia? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and the radio wasn't on or anything. I had the -hi-fi, she liked classical music, and I was playing some of my -records for her, and at no time during the day did we have any radio -broadcasts. She came about noon. Maybe it was on prior to this, I don't -think so, because at 9 o'clock---- - -Mr. JENNER. If it had been on, prior to that time, she didn't mention -any defection? All she said to you was, "Did you know that Lee was in -Europe?" Is that correct? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. She didn't specify any country. In fact, -I asked her what country, and she said she didn't know. She just knew -he was in Europe. She had come from Australia to Japan. I think she may -have been in Japan a month prior to contacting me, a month, a little -less probably. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw her again after that, did you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she visited our house several times. I think the -last time we seen her was about April or May 1960 when she left Japan. -We never seen her again. She said she would contact us and tell us when -she was leaving, but she never did. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your assignment in Japan? - -Mr. PIC. I was a medical laboratory technician at the hospital there, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you return to the United States? - -Mr. PIC. July 1962, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And to where did you return? - -Mr. PIC. To Lackland Air Force Base where I am presently stationed. In -Japan, there is more that happened, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. I received--I wrote Lee, I mean Robert, and asked him about -this. Of course in Japan we didn't get much news and the OSI wouldn't -tell me too much. The Embassy, all they confirmed is that he did -defect. I guess in a period of 2, 3 months I got information from -Robert through several letters. Every time I got some information -I went to the OSI about this. It seems there was a letter, I don't -remember if Robert had copied it from Lee's letter or he had sent me -the original letter. I showed this, I gave it to the OSI. If they gave -it back, it is destroyed now, sir. In this letter he said that no one -should try to contact him because the American capitalists would be -listening over the phone. He mentioned that he had been contemplating -this act for quite awhile. That no one knew it. This is all in my OSI -report. - -And from what other information I had, I received the impression that -him turning toward communism or Marxism, whichever you want to call -it, took place while he was in Japan and in the Marine Corps, sir, -from the insinuations that were involved in the letter or from his own -statements. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, Sergeant, in all your association with -your brother, had there been occasions when there were discussions -with him in the family about any theories or reactions of his toward -democracy, communism, Marxism, or any other form of government? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, the last time he talked to me, I think he was only about -12, 13 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, the answer is no? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; that is the answer--no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is that there hadn't been any such discussions? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You--I take it from that answer--you never heard him assert -any views? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. On his part, with respect to that subject matter? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -While I was processing to return to the States, I had seen in the paper -and everything that Lee was returning to the United States. When I -got my assignment to Lackland, the OSI kind of put it to me that if I -didn't want to be in the same vicinity as Lee that they could change -my orders, and I told them that the United States felt he was reliable -enough for, confident enough in him to let him return, that I would see -no reason to change my assignment. The OSI authorities said there was -no objection to me visiting him, talking to him or anything else. So I -didn't make any attempt to get my assignment changed because of these -reasons. Being it was close enough, you know, to see him fairly easily. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur that you think is pertinent to the -time of your return to the United States? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; the only thing I knew about him was what I read in -the newspaper about him returning with his wife and child. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say newspapers this is the Stars and Stripes? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; Stars and Stripes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is before you returned to this country you had read in -the Stars and Stripes that he had returned to the United States? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he was on his way, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He was on his way back? - -Mr. PIC. He was on his way back at the same time I was on my way back. - -Mr. JENNER. You knew he was on his way back, according to the Stars and -Stripes, with his wife and child? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you arrived at Lackland Air Force Base when? - -Mr. PIC. I arrived in the San Antonio area approximately the 21st of -July 1962, and got a house, got settled and then I signed in on my base -in August. I was permitted 30 days leave, 13 days travel time, which I -took advantage of. I think I took 27 days leave. So I started work in -August, the latter part of August. - -Mr. JENNER. During that period of time of your 30 days' leave, after -arriving at Lackland Air Force Base and San Antonio, did you make any -attempt to find out anything about your brother, where he was? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I called Robert, and we wrote a couple of letters, -and he told me Lee was back, and he was living in Dallas and working -there, and everything seemed to be okay. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that Lee, when he returned to -this country, had lived with him for a while? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know if it was in these conversations. I learned at -the Thanksgiving reunion that he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Which was Thanksgiving of 1962? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to the time you saw your brother, I take it, you saw him -Thanksgiving 1962? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we arrived at my brother Robert's Thanksgiving Day -between about 11:30, 12:30. - -Mr. JENNER. In the morning? - -Mr. PIC. In the morning. We were to meet Lee and his wife at the -Greyhound bus station approximately 2 o'clock. So Robert and I went -down to pick him up. We picked them up outside the Greyhound bus -station. Whether or not they--we had no way of seeing them getting -off a bus. They were at the station when we got there. We did all the -friendly sayings and I was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what happened now? What was the attitude, what were -your impressions? - -Mr. PIC. Well, I still was wondering if he was going to have this -feeling of hostility toward me that he had shown the last time he had -seen me, but it didn't manifest itself whatsoever. He introduced me to -his wife, and I gave her a kiss, and his child. We got in the car, and -he said I hadn't changed much, and we just talked like that. At no time -did Marina speak any English. She would ask him questions in what I -believe was Russian and he would talk back to her in--and talk through. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on that subject--where -he had learned Russian? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir, I knew he had been in Russia over 2 years, so -evidently he had learned Russian while there. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no occasion because of that, it never occurred to -you to ask him about how and when he had learned? - -Mr. PIC. I wasn't going to pry into his affairs, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to his life in Russia? - -Mr. PIC. We let him do the talking, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he speak of it? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. PIC. He told us he worked in a factory there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say what kind of work he did? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of a factory it was? - -Mr. PIC. Something to do with metalwork, aluminum, something like that, -I believe. He told me he was making about $80 a month, I think, while -he worked there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say he had accommodations that supplemented that -salary? Was there anything about whether he had to pay rent or not pay -rent for his quarters? - -Mr. PIC. He didn't talk about anything prior to him and Marina being -married. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; all the conversation was after their marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion of his as to why he went to Russia in the -first place? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of his defection or attempted -defection? - -Mr. PIC. Per se, no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are qualifying that. You say per se. - -Mr. PIC. Right. He did mention that because of his actions he had -received a dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps and that he was -attempting to get this changed to an honorable status. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he appear bitter about it? - -Mr. PIC. He showed us his card which stated dishonorable or bad -conduct, something like that. I think it was dishonorable. He showed it -to me. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his--what impression did you have as to his -overall attitude? What impression did you have as to his state of mind? - -Mr. PIC. He impressed me that he was glad to be back, that he didn't -really enjoy his stay in Russia. He commented about the hard life they -had there. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say about that? - -Mr. PIC. What did he say, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. A shortage of food, rationing of certain items, about eating a -lot of cabbage. He did say that the U.S. Government gave him the money -to come back on. He was in the process of paying them back. In fact, he -let it be known that regardless of anything else he was going to pay -the Government back. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say "regardless of anything else, I am going to pay -them back"? On what do you base that conclusory statement? - -Mr. PIC. Well, he made the statement they paid and he is paying them -back, and he has got this job and he was telling me his financial -situation, and saying so much money is going to pay the Government back. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say about his financial situation? - -Mr. PIC. He didn't give me--this is what he gave me for an address. -He said he lived in an apartment, one room apartment. They had no -television, no radio, no coffee pot. In fact, we brought him a coffee -pot for a present. Gave them a coffee pot and bought the little girl a -stuffed animal of some type. - -Mr. JENNER. Thanksgiving Day you did this? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How come you brought him a coffee pot? - -Mr. PIC. I was going to give him a present. - -Mr. JENNER. It is the coffee pot that interests me. Here you hadn't -seen him for a long time, you were bringing him a gift--why were you---- - -Mr. PIC. Well, my wife being a Yankee---- - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you bring him a coffee pot? - -Mr. PIC. My wife in her Yankee ways believed when you don't see people -a long time you bring them a gift. It's just a token. We brought my -brother Robert a present, a set of dishes I had in Japan, I bought -them in Japan, and so naturally we couldn't give them anything without -giving the other people something. - -Mr. JENNER. It isn't the fact that you brought him a gift. I can -understand that. That would be, I might be even a little surprised -if you hadn't. It is the particular gift in which I am interested. -Why did you select a coffee pot? Was there something that led to that -particular selection on your part? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; we didn't know what really to bring them, and my wife -says, it was one of these glass coffee pots that you put the candle -under, you see, it wasn't a regular percolator. It was one of these -that a hostess always likes to have available to pour coffee out of. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. And my wife had one, and she liked it so she figured we would -give them one. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Tell us everything that occurred on that day, what he said, what Robert -said that is pertinent, what you said, things that occurred, just -completely exhaust your recollection. - -Mr. PIC. Well, Lee informed us that he was working at some type -photography printing company. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. You were advised during the course of that day he was then -at that time living in Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is what he said. - -Mr. JENNER. And working in some kind of photographic work in Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. I said he referred to their living conditions. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. PIC. They had a one-room, I think it was one room. They ate -and slept in the same room, I believe. They had no radio, no TV. -That Marina, when they first arrived, was really astounded about -supermarkets. Every time she went in one she lost control of herself. - -Marina herself wore no lipstick, very plainly dressed. Lee appeared to -be a good father in that he would relieve Marina the burden of holding -the child and taking care of it. - -Mr. JENNER. How was he attired when you met him at the bus station? - -Mr. PIC. He had on a sport jacket and tie. Sports jacket and tie. - -Mr. JENNER. He was clean and neat? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How did Marina and your brother Lee appear to be getting -along? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir; being they only spoke Russian to each other, I -don't know what they said but they appeared to be just like any other -married couple married a year or 2. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation during the course of the day in -which you participated or overheard as to Marina's undertaking to learn -English? - -Mr. PIC. Well, my sister-in-law, Vada---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is Robert's wife? - -Mr. PIC. Wife. Of course, she had, she and my wife had a lot to say -to each other, and through my wife, I found out what Vada had said -to her, that Lee did not permit Marina to wear any lipstick, he did -not permit her to learn English. My wife, she thought this was really -absurd and said the best thing to do was to get them a TV set and let -her sit home and learn English. My wife thought it was terrible the way -her conditions were as far as this was concerned. The girls seemed to -gather in the dinette and we sat around in the living room, talking. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said by Vada or your wife on that occasion as -to the reason why Lee was not permitting Marina to learn English and -speak it and write it? - -Mr. PIC. Well, my wife assumed that if she did ever learn English she -would wise up, being we had seen the Japanese wise with their husbands. -For example, while they were living over in Japan and the wife is -usually meek and mild but when they get over here they change, you see, -she gets her American ways, and lowers the boom on the husband like all -the other American wives do. And my wife was under the impression that -this would happen if once she did learn English and everything. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Keep talking about what occurred on this -particular day, what was said, what your impressions were until you -exhaust all of your recollection. - -Mr. PIC. Well, Marina and the two wives helped prepare the meal, set -the table, and we ate, and there was family talk. At no time did we -mention our mother. She wasn't present. In fact--I will take that -statement back. - -Some time during our stay there Vada mentioned that she had seen my -mother driving around with a man and she thought she had remarried. -This may have been that day, it may have been a day or so later. We -stayed there Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and we left Sunday. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that occasion or -in your presence or reported to you by your wife, as to how Vada and -Marina had gotten along while the Oswalds, your brother, and she lived -with your brother Robert and your sister-in-law Vada? - -Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir. If it was any talk it was -probably on caring, and so forth, about the child and so forth, which -is small talk to the men, of course. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn on that day that Lee had lived with your -brother for a while? - -Mr. PIC. I had learned during that time period that Lee and Marina had -lived with Robert when they returned, and that an attempt was made by -the press and TV to contact them, but Robert wouldn't let them. He -wasn't going to go through it again. Robert only had a one--two-bedroom -apartment, I mean house, and I am sure when we stayed there we were -crowded a little bit. My wife and I slept on the floor, and I am sure -Marina and Robert, I don't know where they slept--I mean Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Your children slept in the bed and you and your wife slept -on a mattress on the floor? - -Mr. PIC. A couple of blankets on the floor, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn during that period of time that Lee had lived -with your brother for a time? - -Mr. PIC. Possibly, sir; I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the fact or any allusion to the -fact that during this period, up to Thanksgiving Day, there had been a -time when Marina had not lived with your brother Lee? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. I understood they arrived from New York, at New York -together, and proceeded--there was a short stay, I think, mentioned in -New York. Where they stayed, I don't know, sir, and then they proceeded -to Texas and lived with Robert. - -Mr. JENNER. I am referring particularly to September and October and -part of November 1962. Was there any reference or any discussion of it -or anything said in your presence of the fact that Marina had lived -apart, separate and apart from Lee? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During one or more periods of time in September or October -and November 1962? - -Mr. PIC. Possibly it could have been being Marina stayed there while -Lee went to look for a job in Dallas. I think, that may have been -mentioned. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there at any time mentioned even while he was working -in Fort Worth, fully employed that she had separated from him and gone -to live elsewhere? - -Mr. PIC. I am not aware that he did work in Fort Worth, sir, at any -time. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't learn at that time, Thanksgiving, that he had -worked in Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the Leslie Welding Co. mentioned at all? - -Mr. PIC. Something about welding was mentioned, that he tried it when -he first came back, now that you mention it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression or did you gain the impression then -that he had had some employment in Fort Worth then as a welder? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember if it was Fort Worth, sir, or where it was. I -just know that welding was mentioned. - -Mr. JENNER. In that connection, was it mentioned or in any fashion -indicated to you that he had been employed as a welder whether in Fort -Worth or otherwise, but he had been employed as a welder? - -Mr. PIC. It was my impression because of his experience in the Soviet -Union working with metals that this helped him in getting his job as a -welder. - -Mr. JENNER. When he first returned? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that that was a position or work that he had had prior -to the time that he obtained the position in Dallas about which he -spoke? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a position preceding his work in the photography -field in some firm in Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything said about his financial status--that is, his and -Marina's, and the child? - -Mr. PIC. Well, he said he wasn't making very much money, but they were -managing to get by. They couldn't afford a TV, couldn't afford a radio, -couldn't afford these necessities of life. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during the course of that day on the -subject of any political philosophy of his? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Politics wasn't discussed? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether party politics or politics in the broad sense? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at all. - -Mr. JENNER. How did he look to you physically as compared with when you -had seen him last? - -Mr. PIC. I would have never recognized him, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Your brother Robert said something along these -lines. You had last seen him in 19--that was prior to this occasion, -the last time you had seen him was when he was in New York City? - -Mr. PIC. Which was a little over 10 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, just about 10 years. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course you had seen him in February 1953, I think you -said. - -Mr. PIC. Right. But we walked in and he walked out. - -Mr. JENNER. But you saw him? - -Mr. PIC. Right, I had seen him for a moment. - -Mr. JENNER. He was then at that particular time in the neighborhood of -13 years of age? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw him 10 years later he was 23. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You noticed, did you, a material change, physically first, -let's take his physical appearance? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Physically I noticed that. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you notice? - -Mr. PIC. He was much thinner than I had remembered him. He didn't have -as much hair. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention? Was that a material -difference? Did that strike you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it struck me quite profusely. - -Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his physical appearance that -arrested your attention? - -Mr. PIC. His face features were somewhat different, being his eyes -were set back maybe, you know like in these Army pictures, they looked -different than I remembered him. His face was rounder. Marilyn had -described him to me when he went in the Marine Corps as having a bull -neck. This I didn't notice at all. I looked for this, I didn't notice -this at all, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He seemed more slender? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He had materially less hair? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. His eyes seemed a little sunken? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he give you the appearance of--was he taut, was he -relaxed or taut, or just what appearance did he have in that connection? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, he didn't strike me as being relaxed because I was not -with him. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; because of these other feelings we had developed 10 -years prior to this. I wondered about how he still felt about that. - -Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred to lead you to believe that he still -remembered it vividly, or did or didn't? - -Mr. PIC. When he was introduced to my wife again he did mention that he -remembered her. But other than that, he completely ignored her. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that pretty obvious? - -Mr. PIC. To her it was, sir. She mentioned it to me several times. He -arrived about 2. - -Mr. JENNER. In the afternoon? - -Mr. PIC. Right; and that is when we picked him up, so I guess we ate -about 3, 4 o'clock or so. And then the girls cleared off the table and -they sat and had coffee and I took them out, they wanted to see my car. - -Mr. JENNER. Took who out? - -Mr. PIC. Lee and Robert both. They looked at my car. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take Marina out with you? - -Mr. PIC. No; she stayed in the house with the girls, and we talked -about cars. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say about a car? - -Mr. PIC. I was made aware sometime during the day that he wasn't -driving. Other than this---- - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of that? - -Mr. PIC. He said he couldn't get a license, to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say why he couldn't get a license? - -Mr. PIC. He said it and give me the impression because of his -citizenship status being he had a dishonorable discharge. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see your brother Lee Harvey Oswald drive an -automobile? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; never in my life. - -Mr. JENNER. While you boys were still in Fort Worth and before you -enlisted in the Coast Guard in January 1950 had you--you had an -automobile, didn't you? - -Mr. PIC. I drove the family car. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert drive? - -Mr. PIC. He may have known how. He was not permitted to drive the -family car. - -Mr. JENNER. I remember when I was a boy I wasn't permitted to drive the -family car, in the broad sense. - -Mr. PIC. Right. He never swiped it. - -Mr. JENNER. I was permitted to drive it up and down the driveway or -when my father was with me, I could drive it around the block or -something like that the way kids do. Was Robert permitted to do that on -a limited scale? - -Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you own what we used to call in my day an old jalopy -while you were still in Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. That picture of that automobile there was quite an old jalopy, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That was before you enlisted? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert ever drive that? - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, no, sir. In fact, I only drove -it a few times myself. This is the picture with the dog. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the picture of the car in John Pic's Exhibit No. 55? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee never drove it, to your knowledge? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your brother Robert interested in automobiles? - -Mr. PIC. All kids are interested in automobiles. - -Mr. JENNER. No; please--was he interested in automobiles? - -Mr. PIC. Sure, he wanted to drive. He seen I was driving so he wanted -to drive and he wasn't as old as I was, I was permitted to drive and he -wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. What about your brother Lee Harvey Oswald in that respect? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know if he ever was really interested at that age to -drive a car or not, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said on the day, Thanksgiving Day 1962, to -lead you to believe that he knew how to drive or operate an automobile? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, are you right handed? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your brother Lee right or left handed? - -Mr. PIC. I think he was right handed, sir. I think we were all right -handed, Robert had tendencies toward the left hand and I think my -mother made him change. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that occasion when -you saw him about his experiences in the Marines? - -Mr. PIC. There probably was, sir, but I don't remember what they -referred to. I know he told me he was at Atsugo Naval Air Station. This -I didn't know until he told me exactly where he was in Japan. I was -familiar with the Atsugo area. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having been in the Philippines? - -Mr. PIC. Reading the magazine I now know that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything then? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; at that time I don't remember knowing that he had -been in the Philippines. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about ever having been in Formosa? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. Just Japan, I think possibly Korea, maybe, was -mentioned. - -Mr. JENNER. But there was no discussion of his marine career to speak -of? - -Mr. PIC. He was affiliated with radar, he told me, radio radar. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the subject arise of why he went to Russia? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That was not discussed at all? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said? Anything said about his experiences in -Russia prior to the time he became married there? - -Mr. PIC. No sir; he didn't mention that at all to me. - -Mr. JENNER. And anything said about his problems with the--I will -withdraw that. - -Was anything said about his defection or attempted defection to Russia? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he did not mention his defection at all. Why he did -it or how he did it, he didn't mention anything, and I didn't ask him. - -Mr. JENNER. During the several days you were in Fort Worth visiting -your brother Robert, did you and he go hunting? - -Mr. PIC. We went fishing, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Fishing? I take it you did not go hunting. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; not at that particular time. When I first went there -in 1958, we did go hunting. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. When you three boys were in Fort Worth, that is -before you enlisted in January 1950, did you boys occasionally go -hunting? - -Mr. PIC. We had no firearms whatsoever, sir, in the house. - -Mr. JENNER. So you did not go hunting? - -Mr. PIC. I didn't. Robert possibly did with some friends of his. I -don't think Lee ever did. We went fishing several times. - -Mr. JENNER. After you returned to this country in 1962, thereafter -there were occasions, where there, or some one occasion, at least, when -you did go squirrel or rabbit hunting with your brother Robert? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; that was in 1958. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. When you were traveling across country to -California? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; we went to his in-law's farm and we did a little hunting -on his father-in-law's property. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of firearms? - -Mr. PIC. .22, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Single shot? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You say the subject of your mother was not mentioned in the -course of this Thanksgiving Day visit? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; Robert and I never brought her up in any -conversations we had. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say about her? - -Mr. PIC. He mentioned her, that he had seen her or been in touch with -her when he first came back, maybe even stayed with her for a week or -two when he first came back, I don't remember. My wife later told me -that Marina couldn't get along with my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina told your wife that she couldn't get along with your -mother? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I think it was Vada told my wife that Marina -couldn't. I think she rather observed this rather than being told by -Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. PIC. That the two of them, not that they didn't get along, but that -Marina disliked her. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw your brother Lee? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir, in the course of that Thanksgiving Day, my brother -Robert offered to drive him back to the bus station. Lee made a phone -call and it was my understanding that the people that he phoned were of -Russian descent, and that Marina often visited with them or talked with -them, so she could talk in her own native tongue, and that their boy, -who was attending, I believe, the University of Oklahoma---- - -Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, I don't remember his name at all, because I was mad at -the time I was introduced to him. - -Mr. JENNER. Introduced to whom? - -Mr. PIC. This gentleman who picked him up. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a young man? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances, tell us what led up -to this incident, and tell us all about the incident. - -Mr. PIC. Well, they made the phone call, and Lee said that they would -be picked up by their friends, and I think sometime between 6 and 7 -that night he came by. Now, my brother Robert, whenever he introduces -me to anyone always refers to me as his brother. Lee referred to me as -his half brother when he introduced me. - -Mr. JENNER. On this occasion? - -Mr. PIC. It was very pronounced. He wanted to let the man know I was -only his half brother. And this kind of peeved me a little bit. Because -we never mentioned the fact that we were half brothers. - -Mr. JENNER. You never had that feeling? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time that your brother had ever -introduced you to anyone as his half brother? I am talking about your -brother Lee now. - -Mr. PIC. I think possibly, sir, this is the first time he ever -introduced me to anyone. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time he had ever referred to you as your -half brother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. His half brother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that so? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that irritated you on this occasion? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Right then and there I had the feeling that the -hostile feeling was still there. Up until this time it didn't show -itself, but I felt then, well, he still felt the same way. - -Mr. JENNER. This young man from the University of Oklahoma, whose name, -by the way, was Gregory---- - -Mr. PIC. He was at the University of Oklahoma. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. I have said this three or four times, I wasn't certain, but -I am sure he was and I was introduced to him as Lee's half brother, -and the man was studying Russian at the school. His parents were from -Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. He came alone, did he? - -Mr. PIC. The car was parked out front, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he was alone when he came in? - -Mr. PIC. He was in the house alone. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it night? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; it was dark between 6 and 7 in November. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go out to the car? - -Mr. PIC. No; I didn't. We stayed in the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Robert go out to the car? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember, sir. I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina appear to be acquainted with this young man? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; as soon as he walked in she started talking Russian to -him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he respond in Russian? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee spoke to him in Russian? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Except when he was introducing you to him he introduced you -in English as his half brother? - -Mr. PIC. Well, Lee would speak to him part Russian, part English. He -was only there maybe a couple or 3 minutes. I had the impression that -this gentleman could speak Russian better than Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. What gave you that impression? - -Mr. PIC. Because Lee wouldn't converse fully with him in Russian -whereas him and Marina did converse fully in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Any other impressions you got of this several hours visit -with your brother Lee? - -Mr. PIC. Well, right before they left, sir; I told him that if he needs -any help or anything, to let me know. I told him I was unable to help -him financially but he is welcome to pay us a visit any time he wished, -stay with us, talk like that. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. PIC. He said OK. He told me to write to him, and in this book, sir, -which I had there he wrote his post office box address in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. We will give that little book, to which you make reference, -John Pic Exhibit No. 60. - -(The document referred to was marked John Pic Exhibit No. 60 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. I have John Pic Exhibit No. 60 in my hand. What is this? - -Mr. PIC. A black memo book, I guess. - -Mr. JENNER. Of yours? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I had it in my car at the time. Whenever I travel I -keep a little book with my mileage on it and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice that the fist ruled page of this book on which -there appear some figures, the letter "B" and then there are some -handwritings which appears to be Russian. I show that to you. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is that? - -Mr. PIC. That is in the handwriting of Marina Oswald, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of her writing in this book? - -Mr. PIC. Only part of this, sir, is in the handwriting of Marina -Oswald. This right here [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the word beginning with the letter, it looks like -the letter "N" or "M" and the word right below that beginning with the -letter "D," and a word right below that beginning, it looks like a -capital "H"? - -Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. The other ones are in my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. The others are all figures? - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of her writing that on the page? - -Mr. PIC. She being a pharmacist, and me being in the medical field, -we tried to communicate with each other just to make small talk with -medical terminology, metric system and so forth, just some way to kill -time with each other she and I seemed to be able to do this to some -degree. - -Mr. JENNER. That is to communicate? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; as long as we stuck within the pharmacy and medical field. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she know some English terms in the pharmacy, medical -field? - -Mr. PIC. She used Latin phrases, some of which were familiar to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Just what was that writing, some medical terms? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I think these are names of drugs she was writing down. I -wouldn't know. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a large letter "B" on that page. How did that get -on there? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. I don't know, sir. I wouldn't venture a -guess whose handwriting it is. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a square to the left of the handwriting in -Russian, what does that signify? - -Mr. PIC. This was placed there by the Secret Service, in San Antonio, -sir, to identify the handwritings in this book, the square being the -handwriting of Marina Oswald, the parentheses being the handwriting of -myself and the mark with the circle being the handwriting of Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. So that wherever throughout that book a zero appears that -is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Wherever the parentheses mark appears that is your -handwriting? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And wherever the square appears that is Marina's -handwriting? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Turn the page over. On the reverse side of that page that -is all your handwriting? - -Mr. PIC. Except this up here, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The reverse side of the previous page. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the front side of the next page which has -the letter "A" printed on it, in the upper right-hand corner. Is that -in your handwriting? - -Mr. PIC. Everything except this top portion, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The top portion? - -Mr. PIC. Starting with liquid measure would be my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. And then there is something above that? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is that? - -Mr. PIC. I believe that to be Marina Oswald's, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Everything below that is yours? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. The reverse side of that page, that is the -reverse side of the "A" page is in whose handwriting? - -Mr. PIC. My handwriting, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then the page opposite that? - -Mr. PIC. That is in my handwriting, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The reverse side of that page is blank. Then the face -of the next page is some figures and the words "Highway start, Fort -Worth," and "highway" again, those are all in whose handwriting? - -Mr. PIC. My handwriting, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then the series of pages are blank, and the first writing -we see thereafter is on the "C" page, some letters and a figure. Whose -handwriting is that? - -Mr. PIC. That is mine, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next handwriting appears on the last ruled page. Whose -handwriting is that? - -Mr. PIC. That is the handwriting of my wife, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All of it? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she loves to write her name. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Then on the next to the last page in the book -which is a plain white page, appears P.O. Box 2195, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. PIC. That is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite page, which is the inside of the back -cover---- - -Mr. PIC. This is the identifying mark in the hand of Secret Service -Agent Ben A. Vidles, in San Antonio, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. This book is in the same condition now as it was? - -Mr. PIC. When I gave it to the Secret Service. - -Mr. JENNER. When you gave it to the Secret Service. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Plus the identifying marks you have described? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document, memorandum book now marked -as "John Pic Exhibit No. 60." - -(The document heretofore marked for identification as John Pic Exhibit -No. 60 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter prior to November 22, up to but prior to -November 22, 1963, hear anything about your brother? - -Mr. PIC. The day or two after they left Robert and I went fishing. -While we were in the boat there was Robert, myself, and my oldest boy, -and at this time I asked him about Lee, I asked him if he considered -or thought that Lee was a little on the pink side and just how he was -getting along. Robert informed me that he had had seen FBI agents once -in awhile who said Lee was doing pretty good and that there was nothing -to worry about. And all reports that he had had were favorable towards -Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Robert did tell you that the FBI had checked with him? - -Mr. PIC. He had seen an agent now and then, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate as to whether the FBI had come to visit -him or whether he had merely run into some FBI agent? - -Mr. PIC. I had the impression that they had visited him where he -worked, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything else about your brother from that -occasion up to but not including November 22, 1963? - -Mr. PIC. Well, other information I gathered from my talks with Robert -in those few days was that Lee and Marina made the trip to see them in -Fort Worth fairly regular, to have dinner, things like this. It seems -that Vada and Marina were at one time, I was told, talking---- - -Mr. JENNER. By whom? - -Mr. PIC. By Vada, Marina was trying to make a point about her wedding -ring being she couldn't speak English, Vada got the impression that -Marina had been married before. - -Mr. JENNER. That Marina had been married before? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is the only thing she could gather from Marina -flashing her wedding ring and talking about this. The four of us were -present, Robert, myself, and the two wives. But this was done over -coffee. - -Mr. JENNER. This was after Lee and Marina had left? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was after they had left. - -Mr. JENNER. What did Robert say on that subject, if anything? - -Mr. PIC. Nothing. That he didn't think she had been married before. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your brother Robert, and did he visit you -subsequent to that occasion on Thanksgiving up to but not including -November 22, 1963? - -Mr. PIC. A couple or 3 days prior to Christmas of 1962, Robert and his -family returned the visit to our home in San Antonio, sir. I asked -Robert this time if he had seen or heard from Lee since we had last -seen him and he told me, no. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any comment on that subject that he had not heard -from Lee up to that time? - -Mr. PIC. It was really only a matter of 3 or 4 weeks at the most, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So it didn't occasion any surprise on your part? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you given any other information by Robert with respect -to Lee? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; not that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see Robert again subsequent to this pre-Christmas -Party 1962? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And up to but not including November 22, 1963? - -Mr. PIC. I still haven't seen him since Christmas 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you corresponded? - -Mr. PIC. We have written a few letters, and I was permitted to make a -phone call to him right after the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say in the course of that conversation? What -did you say? - -Mr. PIC. This was--I was permitted to make the phone call after Lee's -murder. The Secret Service said I could contact Robert. He had called -where I worked and left a number. I contacted the Secret Service. They -told me go ahead and call this number, call them back and tell them the -gist of the conversation. - -I called him up at this number. Someone answered the phone and I asked -for Robert and they called him to the phone. He told me that he and -his--told me his wife and children were at the farm with her folks, I -believe that is what he told me. That he was--he couldn't tell me where -he was but he was in Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Robert was? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; under custody of the Secret Service. - -Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was this? - -Mr. PIC. This was Sunday, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The day of the death of your brother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The 24th of November 1963? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What else was said? - -Mr. PIC. He told me that some local business people would make -arrangements for the funeral and there would be no expense to him. I -told him I was sorry it happened and everything. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having seen your brother at the -Dallas City Police Station prior to this telephone conversation? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion in this telephone conversation -about the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; there wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. About the possible involvement of your brother in that -connection? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; there wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was confined largely, if not -exclusively, to the death of your brother? - -Mr. PIC. The conversation was just about as I related it, sir. It was -mostly confined to the death of Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. And his burial? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attend the funeral services? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I was not permitted. In fact, the Secret Service -did not let me write Robert for, I think, 7 to 8 days after the -assassination. At that time they granted me permission to freely -correspond with him. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did so? - -Mr. PIC. I think we have written about two, three letters back and -forth. I am the one who fails to write. He never fails to write. - -Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of these letters involved Lee; any of -them? - -Mr. PIC. I think the very first one I got concerned the welfare of his -family. They were out at the farm. That his company treated him very -good about all the time lost. That Marina asked about us and how we -were getting along. In my return letter to him I told him nobody had -bothered us and we were getting along just fine. He informed me that he -was--I suggested if they could, to come down and stay with us awhile. -We had just purchased a new house, we had the room, and he wrote back -and told me that because he had missed all the time because of the -incidents he was unable to get any more time from his company without -losing his job. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you seen Marina in the meantime? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The last time you saw her, I take it, then, was -Thanksgiving Day 1962? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Has there been any correspondence between you? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Has there been any correspondence that was indirect in any -fashion? - -Mr. PIC. My last letter I received from Robert was right after he -appeared here. He mentioned that Marina often asked about my wife -and I. Other than this, there has been no mention. He has mentioned -about the grave being desecrated, and some information concerning the -gravesite of Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Before I return to some specifics, is there anything else -that has occurred to you in your reflection on this matter that you -would like to mention? - -Mr. PIC. The actual assassination, that time period or what, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, anything you think that might be relevant to the -Commission's investigation as to the circumstances surrounding the -assassination of President Kennedy, any persons involved therein, the -subsequent death of your brother. - -Mr. PIC. Most of the information that I have seen and heard has been -all new to me, like his escapades in New Orleans, passing out the -leaflets and his radio program. - -Mr. JENNER. Those incidents, by the way, were unknown to you until -after the assassination, I take it? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I assure you if I had known he was doing his -escapades again I would have went to the proper authorities about it. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first -Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages -of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your -attention first to the lower left-hand spread at the bottom of the -page. Do you recognize the area shown there? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your -brother? - -Mr. PIC. This one here with the arrow. - -Mr. JENNER. The one that has the printed arrow? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you recognize that as your brother? - -Mr. PIC. Because they say so, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, I don't want you to say---- - -Mr. PIC. No; I couldn't recognize that. - -Mr. JENNER. Because this magazine says that it is. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after -studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother -now, I am talking about Lee. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In the upper portion there are a series of photographs -spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. Take those on -the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. Do you -recognize the persons shown in that photograph? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I recognize this photograph, the people from left to -right being Robert Oswald, the center one being Lee Oswald, and the -third one being myself. This picture was taken at the house in Dallas -when we returned from New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean from--when you came from New Orleans after being -at the Bethlehem Orphanage Home? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you went to Dallas? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It was taken in Dallas at or about that time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young -boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a -striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to when and where that was -taken? - -Mr. PIC. Just looking at the picture, I would guess first, second -grade, maybe. I would have to guess at it. - -Mr. JENNER. Then there is one immediately to the right of that, a -young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, -legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. There are some other people -apparently in the background. - -Mr. PIC. I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Does anything about the picture enable you to identify as -to where that was taken? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the -upper portion of the--one young man at the bottom and then apparently a -young man standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either -of those young people? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing -in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do -you recognize that? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you -recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 284--do you recognize anybody in -that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a young fellow in the foreground--everybody else -is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you -recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; looking at that picture--and I have looked at it -several times--that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my -recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. On Exhibit No. 286, the lower right-hand corner, -there is another picture. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee in -that picture? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is about how he looked when I seen him in 1962, -his profile. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is -pointing her finger at him? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to -bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Neither one of them? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert -rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never -guess that that would be Lee, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is in the lower left-hand -corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, -also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. PIC. That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I -seen him Thanksgiving 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. -289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as -your brother Lee? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I do not recognize them. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a -photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of -those persons? - -Mr. PIC. He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him. - -Mr. JENNER. And the lady? - -Mr. PIC. She is his wife, Marina, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, -there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another -man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the -young man handing out the leaflet? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him. - -Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was your brother? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 292, in the upper right-hand corner, is a -picture of a lady, a young lady with a child. Do you recognize either -of those persons? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I recognize Marina Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And the baby? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I couldn't recognize the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Below that is a picture purporting to be that of your -brother with a pistol on his right hip, and with a firearm, a rifle -in his left hand holding up what appear to be some leaflets. Do you -recognize that as your brother Lee? - -Mr. PIC. That is how he looked to me in 1962 when I seen him, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a duplicate of the picture on the cover. You have -produced for us a series of letters from your mother to yourself, from -your brother Lee to yourself, and from your brother Robert to yourself -which have been marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 6 through 47, inclusive. - -Did you assist Mr. Ely, in the preparation of this list of exhibits? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I arranged the stacks. He took it from the stacks I -arranged previously. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, then, John Pic Exhibit No. 6 -is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic, postmarked May 8, 1950, -and its accompanying envelope as John Pic Exhibit No. 6-A. John Pic -Exhibit No. 7 is a letter from your mother to you, postmarked May 23, -1950, or the envelope is so postmarked. Its accompanying envelope being -marked John Pic Exhibit No. 7-A. John Pic Exhibit No. 8, a letter from -Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope, Exhibit No. 8-A, -postmarked at Fort Worth, May 24, 1950. - -By the way, Exhibit No. 6-A is postmarked Fort Worth. All of these -exhibits until I indicate otherwise from here on are marked with a -return address to M. Oswald, 9048 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. PIC. 7408. - -Mr. JENNER. What did I say? 7408; that is correct. You are right. - -Exhibit No. 9 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic, -accompanying envelope is Exhibit No. 9-A postmarked June 9, 1950. - -Exhibit No. 10 and its reverse side, which is marked Exhibit No. 10-B, -is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope -marked John Pic Exhibit No. 10-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, Tex., on -August 23, 1950. This envelope has no return address on it. - -Exhibit No. 11 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic in an -envelope postmarked August 15, 1950, marked Exhibit No. 11-A. - -Exhibit No. 12 is a letter from Marguerite to John Pic enclosed in -envelope postmarked November 6, 1950, and identified as John Pic -Exhibit No. 12-A. - -The next is John Pic Exhibit No. 13, a letter from Marguerite Oswald -to John Pic enclosed in envelope postmarked December 13, 1950, the -envelope being marked John Pic Exhibit No. 13-A. This does have the -return address Lee Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. - -The next is a short longhand note on a small sheet marked John Pic -Exhibit No. 14 which is undated, Lee Harvey Oswald to John Pic, which -was enclosed with Exhibit No. 13. - -The next is a card, Christmas card, marked John Pic Exhibit No. 15, -inside cover of which in longhand says, "Dear Pic," and then there is -in longhand and pencil "I sure am sorry that you can't come home for -Christmas so I am sending you this fruitcake. Merry Christmas"--spelled -Mary--"from Lee." - -The next is John Pic No. 16, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John -Pic enclosed in envelope marked Pic Exhibit No. 16-A and postmarked in -Fort Worth, April 16, 1951, with the usual return address. - -Exhibit No. 17 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed -in envelope postmarked at Fort Worth on April 23, 1951. That envelope -is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 17-A. The previous envelope in which -Exhibit No. 16 was enclosed was marked Exhibit No. 16-A. I will say for -the record in each instance where there is a letter accompanied by an -envelope, the envelope is marked with a letter "A" but with the same -number as the letter. - -Exhibit No. 18 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed -in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 18-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, May -22, 1951. - -The next is Exhibit No. 19, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic -enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 19-A, postmarked at Fort -Worth on June 18, 1951. - -Exhibit No. 20 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic and -Exhibit No. 20-B is a birthday card from Marguerite. Both are enclosed -in an envelope marked John Pic Exhibit No. 20-A, postmarked at Fort -Worth, Tex., June 14, 1952, bearing the usual return address. - -Exhibit No. 21 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed -in an envelope marked Pic Exhibit No. 21-A, postmarked Fort Worth, July -14, 1952, with the usual return address. - -The next is a letter without an envelope which is marked John Pic -Exhibit No. 22. The letter is dated May 10, 1954. - -The Exhibit No. 23 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic -enclosed is an envelope, Exhibit No. 23-A, postmarked in New Orleans on -June 14, 1954, containing the return address, M. Oswald, 1454 St. Mary, -New Orleans, La. - -The next is Exhibit No. 24; it is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to -John Pic enclosed in an envelope postmarked at New Orleans, October 14, -1954, which in turn is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 24-A. It contains -the return address, M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La. If I -neglected to do so, Exhibit No. 22 is the letter from Marguerite Oswald -to John Pic. - -Exhibit No. 25 also is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic -enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 25-A, postmarked at New -Orleans, La., on November 12, 1954, containing return address, M. -Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La. - -Exhibit No. 26 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed -in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 26-A, postmarked at New Orleans, La., -on November 11, 1954, return address, Mrs. M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New -Orleans, La. Mr. Pic, are Exhibits Nos. 6 and 6-A, 7 and 7-A, 8 and -8-A, 9 and 9-A, 10 and 10-A, 11 and 11-A--excuse me, strike out that 10 -and 10-A--11 and 11-A, 12 and 12-A, 16 and 16-A, 17 and 17-A, 18 and -18-A, 19 and 19-A, 20 and 20-A, 21 and 21-A, 22, 23 and 23-A, 24 and -24-A, 25 and 25-A, 26 and 26-A, all in the handwriting of your mother -Marguerite Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And were those envelopes addressed to you at various places -you were then, that is as of the time they were postmarked received by -you at or about the postmarked dates or shortly thereafter which each -envelope bears? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. There is one exhibit that doesn't have an envelope. Was -that letter received by you shortly after the date it bears? - -Mr. PIC. You refer to Exhibit No. 22, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. These are all, they all consist of correspondence from your -mother to you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And they happen to be correspondence which you have -retained over the years? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Except for the exhibit marks on those, they are in the same -condition now as they were at the time you received them and opened -them in the case of the envelopes? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that the letters are in the condition they were at the -time you read them? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Go back to Pic Exhibit No. 10, in whose handwriting is that -exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 10, sir, is in the handwriting of--there is -Exhibits Nos. 10, 10-A, and 10-B. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 10, I am referring to. - -Mr. PIC. They are both in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibits Nos. 10 and 10-A; correct? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; Exhibits Nos. 10, 10-A, and 10-B. Exhibit No. 10 is -the insert in envelope Exhibit No. 10-A. - -Mr. JENNER. Then look at Exhibits Nos. 13 and 13-A. - -Mr. PIC. They are marked Exhibits Nos. 13 and 13-A, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. The contents are marked Exhibit No. 13. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is the envelope? - -Mr. PIC. Lee Harvey Oswald's. - -Mr. JENNER. And whose handwriting is that which appears in the inside -of that card? - -Mr. PIC. My mother's, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there any handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald on that card? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The card was enclosed, was it in the exhibit marked John -Pic No. 13-A? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Turn to Exhibit No. 14. That is a note you received from -your brother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that in his handwriting? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It is undated. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have the envelope in which that was enclosed? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, it may be Exhibit No. 13-A, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. It may have been enclosed in Exhibit No. 13-A? - -Mr. PIC. It may have been enclosed in Exhibit No. 10-A, I don't know, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, it is in the handwriting of your brother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you received it in due course some time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. On or about the holiday period---- - -Mr. PIC. I would guess that Exhibit No. 15 goes in envelope Exhibit No. -13-A. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you put them in there? - -Mr. PIC. And the date on envelope Exhibit No. 13-A is 13 December, and -this is a Christmas card from Lee, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That Christmas card on the inside is the handwriting of -your mother, however? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the exhibit marked John Pic No. 14, do you -have a recollection as to the envelope in which that was enclosed? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to approximately when you -received it, that is John Pic Exhibit No. 14? - -Mr. PIC. I would speculate and say that Exhibit No. 10 goes in envelope -Exhibit No. 10-A, and that Exhibit No. 14 either came some little -period of time before or after the contents in envelope Exhibit No. -10-A. - -Mr. JENNER. That is while you were away at military school? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; this is when I am in the Coast Guard. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. All those exhibits I have now identified, that -is after I identified your mother's letters, are in the handwriting of -Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. All except Exhibit No. 13, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And Exhibit No. 13 is in the handwriting of your mother? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It appears to be and is a Christmas card? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From its contents are you able to tell us approximately -when you received that? - -Mr. PIC. It would be, I would say sometime after Christmas of 1950, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you put all those exhibits back in order? - -Mr. PIC. What belongs with what I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. Exhibits Nos. 13-A and 15 here, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You have already told us of Exhibits No. 13-A belonging -with Exhibit No. 15. You have also produced for us correspondence that -you happen still to have in your possession from your brother Robert -Oswald, have you not? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I place that correspondence before you and ask you to -follow me as I place the exhibit numbers in the record. Exhibit No. 27 -is a letter from Robert to you. - -Mr. PIC. They are marked all with "B's." - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 27-B is a letter from your brother Robert to -you enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 27-A, postmarked October -1, 1952? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From where? - -Mr. PIC. U.S. Navy 14016, sir. Unit 1. - -Mr. JENNER. And to you at? - -Mr. PIC. At 325 East 92d Street, New York City, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 28-B is the contents of Exhibit No. 28-A, the -contents consisting of a letter from your brother Robert to you, the -envelope is postmarked June 9, 1954. - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is addressed to you where? - -Mr. PIC. U.S. Coast Guard Station, Staten Island, N.Y. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Exhibit No. 29-B is the contents of the envelope -marked Exhibit No. 29-A, the contents consisting of a letter from your -brother Robert to you, and the envelope being postmarked June 19, 1954. - -Mr. PIC. Plus a picture. - -Mr. JENNER. There is also enclosed in that envelope a picture? - -Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is marked---- - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 29-C. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 29-C. The picture is a picture of whom? - -Mr. PIC. Two what appear to be Marines, sir; the one on the left being -Robert Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. May I see it, please, sir? Do you know the other Marine? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 30-A is an envelope postmarked December 13, -1954, its contents being a letter marked Exhibit No. 30-B, being a -letter from your brother Robert to you. - -Mr. PIC. Being a Christmas card, sir; with a letter written on the -Christmas card. - -Mr. JENNER. On the inside? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And some inscription, also, under the Christmas greetings? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, are those exhibits all in the handwriting, except for -the photograph, of course, in the handwriting of your brother Robert? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to my best of my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive those exhibits, the envelopes, and the -contents in due course after they were posted? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have retained them in your possession since that -time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Have you also produced for us some additional -correspondence between your mother and yourself? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Being exclusively letters from her to you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. They being in the following series: Exhibit No. 31-A, an -envelope addressed to you postmarked June 3, 1950---- - -Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth, Tex. What is the return address? - -Mr. PIC. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And the contents consisting of a letter from your mother to -you? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is marked Exhibit No. 31-B? - -Mr. PIC. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The next envelope and letter, the envelope is marked -Exhibit No. 32-A. Is it postmarked? - -Mr. PIC. Partial postmark, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How much of it can you read? - -Mr. PIC. Texas 1950, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Its contents marked? - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 32-B, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a letter from your mother to you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Enclosed with the envelope we have identified? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit is what? - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 33-A, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Postmarked? - -Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, August 23, 1950. - -Mr. JENNER. What return address? - -Mr. PIC. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. The contents have been marked? - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 33-B, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The letter from your mother to you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Enclosed in that envelope? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Is just a letter dated Exhibit No. 34. - -Mr. PIC. Is just a letter marked Exhibit No. 34. - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it dated? - -Mr. PIC. The only mention is the word Saturday, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It is undated? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It is in the handwriting of your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You received it in due course? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Some time or other? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did not retain the envelope? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you tell from its content approximately when you -received it? Was it after you entered the Coast Guard? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; definitely after I entered the Coast Guard, in fact -it mentions the Korean war, so it was after the onset of the Korean war. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it received subsequently to the letter and envelope, -the envelope being postmarked August 23, 1950, being the previous -exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. The next exhibit. - -Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 35-A, sir, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex.; -return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the postmark date? - -Mr. PIC. September 22, 1950. - -Mr. JENNER. Contents marked? - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 35-B, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Being a letter from your mother to you? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 36-A bearing the postmark 27 September 1950, -return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing Street, Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And postmarked at Fort Worth? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; postmarked at Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Its contents marked--what is the exhibit number on the -contents? - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 36-B, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then the next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. The next Exhibit No. 37-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., -December 28, 1950, no return address. - -Mr. JENNER. The contents? - -Mr. PIC. Christmas card marked Exhibit No. 37-B with a short note. - -Mr. JENNER. In the handwriting of your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 38-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., -January 19, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, -Tex. Contents of envelope marked Exhibit No. 38-B containing a letter -from my mother to myself. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 39-A postmarked Fort Worth Tex., April 6, -1951. The only thing made out on the return address is "M.O. 7408 Fort -Worth, Texas." - -Mr. JENNER. Contents? - -Mr. PIC. Contents Exhibit No. 39-B, a letter from my mother to myself, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 40-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., -May 2, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, contents Exhibit -No. 40-B letter from my mother to myself, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 41-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., -7 May 1951, return address 7408, Mrs. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort -Worth, Tex., contents letter marked Exhibit No. 41-B, a letter from my -mother to myself, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. A letter, envelope marked Exhibit No. 42-A postmarked Fort -Worth, Tex., June 4, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort -Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 42-B, letter from my mother to -myself, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 43-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., -June 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., -contents marked Exhibit No. 43-B, a letter from my mother to myself, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 44-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., -July 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., -contents marked Exhibit No. 44-B, a letter from my mother to myself, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 45-A, postmarked Fort Worth, -Tex., February 8, 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort -Worth, Tex. Contents Exhibit No. 45-B, a letter from my mother to -myself, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit? - -Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 46-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., -May 8, 1952, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked -Exhibit No. 46-B, letter from my mother to myself. - -Mr. JENNER. The last of the series? - -Mr. PIC. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 47-A, postmarked Fort Worth, -Tex., dated 5th of March 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, -Fort Worth, Tex. Contents marked Exhibit No. 47-A also. The letter from -my mother to myself. - -Mr. JENNER. OK, that is a mistake then. We will change that marking to -Exhibit No. 47-B, which I am now doing. - -The letters that have been identified with Exhibit No. 31-A and -concluding with Exhibit No. 47-B, are all in the handwriting of your -mother, are they not? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is correspondence which you received in due course -on or about the dates or shortly after the dates that the various -envelopes were postmarked? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have retained them in your possession in the entire -time? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. There is an exhibit still before you marked John Pic -Exhibit No.---- - -Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 59. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that? - -Mr. PIC. This appears to be a "shot" record of Lee Harvey Oswald -written in an unknown hand, which gives him a smallpox date of August -7, 1951. - -Mr. JENNER. How did that come into your possession? - -Mr. PIC. It was just laying in the box with all this other stuff, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer those exhibits now commencing with Exhibit No. 31-A -to and including Exhibits Nos. 47-B, plus 59, in evidence. - -(The documents referred to were marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 31-A to -47-B, inclusive, and Exhibit No. 59 for identification and received in -evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, we have made copies of all those exhibits and we -appreciate your bringing the originals, and you may take the originals -back with you to San Antonio. Those exhibits consisting of the -photographs of your brother which you brought, we will have duplicated -and returned to you in due course. - -Mr. PIC. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Direct your attention, if you will, to Exhibit No. 9-A, an -envelope and its contents, Exhibit No. 9, this being a letter from Fort -Worth, June 9, 1950, to you at Brooklyn, N.Y. - -There is an inside page reading, "Mother called in on and told some of -my problems." Do you find that? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Uncle Dutz wired $75. That is your uncle Charles Murret? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And then it reads, "And Lee was invited to spend a couple -of weeks, so I sent him on the train by himself. To what is your mother -referring in connection with her problems and the wiring of the $75 by -your uncle? - -Mr. PIC. It appears to me, sir, that at this time period she was -between jobs. Further down she states she is starting on a new job -Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. Does she refer to that job on the page that is numbered 3, -I believe, as McDonald Kitchens is the name? - -Mr. PIC. She first refers to it on the one where it begins, "Mother -called in on". - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the mother there mentioned is your mother, isn't it? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Then there is a page numbered 3? - -Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Which referred to McDonald's Kitchens as the name and what -they do is cook food for commercial use? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. "I will drive a station wagon and deliver the food, also." - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a job she was about to obtain? - -Mr. PIC. I can only assume from the letter, sir; I have no other -knowledge of that. - -Mr. JENNER. She makes a reference on that page "Haven't sold the house -as yet but have a good prospect." Calling your attention to the date, -June 9, 1950, what house was that? - -Mr. PIC. I am sure this refers to the little house in Benbrook, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It refers to people called DeLogans. Who are they? - -Mr. PIC. I assume these people were renting the house from her, I don't -remember them. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a duplex of some kind? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; that was this little L-shaped house. - -Mr. JENNER. In all this correspondence, Sergeant, by and large your -mother very frequently, if not all the time, refers to her straitened -circumstances, need for funds, and references to you having sent money. -In your testimony you have referred to conversations with her on the -subject and she raised the subject to you. Was that something that was -pretty constantly in her mind all the time? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she talk about that subject at times when you were of -the opinion that she was not as straitened as she appears to report in -these letters? - -Mr. PIC. Will you repeat that, please, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read it, please, Mr. Reporter. - -(The question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) - -Mr. PIC. I am sorry, sir; I don't understand your question. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you of the opinion from time to time that on these -occasions when she talked about what appears to be that she was in -extremis with respect to finances when in fact she was not, she was -overstating this condition or status? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I believe she overstated it most of the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Because there were purchases of houses, at least on the -installment plan, and she seemed to have capital to do that, did she -not? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she could always buy and sell a house some way or -other. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to why she was doing this; to -impress you boys or was that just her fixation or personality trait? - -Mr. PIC. It is my impression that she did it in order to make a profit -on every deal she got involved with. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of a house sale as such. But that -question was more directed to her talking about her financial -circumstances. - -Was she attempting to impress you boys that she was working herself -to the bone to support you and you should be more grateful than you -appeared to be, and that sort of thing? - -Mr. PIC. That is practically verbatim, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Please; you say that is practically verbatim, you mean you -have uttered what was in her mind? - -Mr. PIC. No; just about what she says. She said at those times. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you under the impression that she was overstating in -that respect? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that likewise the feeling of your brother Robert? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, I am sure it was. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether your mother was -always sincere and straightforward with respect to that subject matter? - -Mr. PIC. My opinion, sir; at the time was all she cared about was -getting hold of and making some money in some form or another. This is -her god, so to speak, was to get money. And to get as much out of me as -she could and as much out of Robert as she could. - -Mr. JENNER. And as much out of anybody else as she could? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any--you talk about the difficulties with Mr. -Ekdahl. Do you recall any discussions between them with respect to any -dissatisfaction on your mother's part with funds that were given her by -Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she always wanted more money out of him. That was -the basis of all the arguments. - -Mr. JENNER. And was she complaining to him that he didn't give her -enough money? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your mother an extravagant person money-wise? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know what she did with the money, sir. She bought very -little as far as clothes and things. We didn't eat steak every day. -We didn't eat that good. In fact, when I joined the service in 1950, -I was 118 pounds, and my weight prior to that was usually about 130, -140. I think within a month or two after I joined the service I was up -to 145 and none of my uniforms fit me. I was--there is a picture of me -in the Pasqual High School thing, and I am very thin. People couldn't -recognize me from that picture. I lost a lot of weight working, and not -eating too good. I would come home and have to fix my own meals. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your mother attentive in that respect? Did she go out -of her way to have meals ready for you boys when you returned to home -either after work or after school or otherwise? - -Mr. PIC. If there was a majority eating there was usually something set -aside for the lesser, which was kept warm in the oven. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean the member of the family who was absent at -mealtime she would save something for him? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the feeling, you and your brother, in due -course, that your mother's references to these financial needs at -times, at least when, to use the vernacular, she was crying wolf? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. These continued references by her to her financial needs, -did you think that had an effect on Lee as well as on yourself and your -brother? - -Mr. PIC. It didn't affect me that much. I ignored most of them. If I -had money I sent it. If I didn't, that was it. Lee was brought up in -this atmosphere of constant money problems, and I am sure it had quite -an effect on him, and also Robert. - -Mr. JENNER. In her letter enclosed in the envelope postmarked June 18, -1951---- - -Mr. PIC. What number is that, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. That is Exhibits Nos. 19 and 19-A--she makes reference that -Robert has been saving his money since January to buy a car and "gives -me $15 a week and never spends a cent unless absolutely necessary (is -he tight) but he has saved $210 since the first of the year and is -hiding"---- - -Mr. PIC. Hitting. - -Mr. JENNER. "For $400" and so on. - -Mr. PIC. Before buying a car. - -Mr. JENNER. "Won't loan me a penny, pays his room and board regularly. -He gets 2 weeks vacation with pay, I believe, will start in July." - -Do you remember your mother attempting to borrow money from you? - -Mr. PIC. When I went home on leave in 1950 with a hundred or so -dollars, like I mentioned before, she wanted to hold it, just about the -whole amount except for about $10 from me, so nothing would happen to -it, and I might get robbed or something, she felt. Whenever she could -she attempted to get a buck out of any of us. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get any of that money back? - -Mr. PIC. I got it all back and subsequently when I left I gave her, I -think $50 or so. - -Mr. JENNER. In that same letter she refers to, she said, "I only made -$92 last month and am just starting to get leads. I am back with the -same company." - -To what company is she referring in that letter which is postmarked -June 18, 1951? - -Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. It sounds to me like it would be an -insurance company. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your mother selling insurance? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I knew approximately at this time period she sold -insurance. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a reference to Lee taking tap dancing lessons, -also, in that letter, that he is a good dancer, "with his voice it -would be a good thing to start dancing lessons and when he is a little -older take voice." - -Mr. PIC. I think this statement here about this practically like -several other statements which are either direct or indirect were an -attempt to get me to donate some money to this cause or something -else. Of course this, to me, is a come-on for maybe next time I write -I will say, "Hurrah, hurrah, Lee is going to take tap dancing lessons" -and then she will write and say she can't afford it and to send a -little money to help him. She did these things. In fact, in some of -her letters she refers to it is my fault they are in trouble because I -stated I would help pay for the car and since I was in the service I -wasn't holding up my end of the bargain. - -Mr. JENNER. What about that incident? - -Mr. PIC. Sir, that is in the second group of letters. - -Mr. JENNER. What about this particular incident you mentioned? What are -the facts about that? - -Mr. PIC. Just what it states here. This is all I know, sir. What it -states in this letter. - -Mr. JENNER. About the dancing and voice? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of Lee, other than this letter of Lee -taking dancing lessons? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear otherwise of his taking dancing lessons -than in this letter? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did either you or Robert ever take dancing lessons or voice -lessons? - -Mr. PIC. I think when we were very small and Mr. Oswald was still alive -we did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the other thing to which I referred, as you made -reference to something about making payments on a car. What was that -about? - -Mr. PIC. That would be in that second group, sir. In the second group -is really the financial statements. Every one of them contained -something pertaining to her finances. - -Mr. JENNER. The early enlistments of yourself and Robert and Lee--do -you think that had anything to do with your mother's persistent -references, allusions to finances? - -Mr. PIC. I did not enlist as fast as the other boys. I waited a year -after I was of age. I am sure that prior to my enlistment, as a matter -of fact, I knew she mentioned when I do get in I should make out an -allotment to her and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think there was an incentive on the part of Lee and -Robert to enlist as soon as possible to get away from your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Robert have discussions on this -subject? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; we never discussed these things. It was just a -feeling it was always around. We knew these things without discussing -them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you live in an atmosphere in which your mother directly -or indirectly indicated to you that she thought she had been unfairly -dealt with in her life? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had that very definite impression? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had---- - -Mr. PIC. I did not have this impression. She related this to me, sir. I -didn't feel she had it any tougher than a lot of people walking around. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what I am getting at, this was an impression she -was seeking to create. - -Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You felt she did not have it any tougher. She was creating -an impression that did not square with the facts? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Every time she met anyone she would remind them she -was a widow with three children. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion also as to whether this atmosphere -in which Lee lived had an effect upon him and his personality? - -Mr. PIC. I am sure it did, sir. Also, Lee slept with my mother until I -joined the service in 1950. This would make him approximately 10, well, -almost 11 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say slept with, you mean in the same bed? - -Mr. PIC. In the same bed, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know or say when Lee came and stayed with you -a short while in 1952 did he likewise sleep with your mother? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. He had reached a measure of independence by that time? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir; when I left and went into the service there was a -vacant bed in the house. - -Mr. JENNER. And at that time was that literally the first time that Lee -had separate quarters for himself other than the period of time that -Mr. Ekdahl lived with you and the period of time when your stepfather -Lee Oswald was alive? - -Mr. PIC. Lee wasn't born when Lee Oswald was alive, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. Well, then, except for the time Mr. Ekdahl -lived with you? - -Mr. PIC. That is true, sir. That would make him about 10-1/2 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to the time he was 10-1/2 years old, why he roomed and -slept with his mother in the same bed? - -Mr. PIC. I would like to interject here. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am seeking something of the personality of your -mother and the effect on you, had an effect on Robert, and probably a -more material effect on Lee, is that correct? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I am sure it did. When I reached 17, I was eligible for -the service, but I was really in no hurry, I wanted to finish my high -school education, and when I decided to join the Coast Guard--at that -time to join the Coast Guard you needed your parent's consent up until -the age of 21. I asked her for it and she hesitated and I told her if -she didn't give it to me I would join another branch where I didn't -need it and then I got it. I am sure that neither Robert nor Lee needed -their mother's consent to join the Marine Corps at the age of 17. I -know for the Coast Guard we did, sir, the Coast Guard was not a part of -the Department of Defense at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibits Nos. 21 and 21-A, the -second page of that letter, Exhibit No. 21, reads, "Robert left Friday -morning for San Diego. He joined the Marines and signed for 4 years. -I am glad he decided to enlist. He realized his mistake about getting -married, and"--would you read the rest of it? - -Mr. PIC. "And probably having to go just the same." - -Mr. JENNER. "And then probably having to go just the same." Is that the -incident in which your mother opposed your brother Robert's marriage to -the little crippled girl? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Turn to Exhibit No. 24. There is a reference there to a -lady, Ethel somebody at Holmes. Would you read that? - -Mr. PIC. "Ethel Nunncy at Holmes asks about you." - -Mr. JENNER. And that is--Holmes is a department store? - -Mr. PIC. In New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was Ethel Nunncy? - -Mr. PIC. She was a friend of my mother's, sir, that I had known of -since I was a small--I was a baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Sir, this Exchange Alley--did they have to live under these -conditions? - -Mr. PIC. All I know is that they lived there. She thought they did. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 31-B which is a letter from your mother to you -postmarked at Fort Worth, June 3, 1950, reading "Dear John, your sense -of responsibility seems nil" or null. - -Mr. PIC. Nil, null. - -Mr. JENNER. N-u-l-l. "Remember it was you insisted I buy the car as you -planned to work at Consolidated. Well I have been in a jam financially -ever since you left." What is the next word? - -Mr. PIC. "Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul." - -Mr. JENNER. "Until you were"---- - -Mr. PIC. Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul until you were -finished with your boot training as your letters indicated you would -send a hundred fifty dollars and about fifty dollars a month." - -Mr. JENNER. Had you so indicated? - -Mr. PIC. I don't believe so, sir. I don't see how, I wasn't making but -$80 per month. - -Mr. JENNER. What truth was there in her statement that it was you who -insisted that she buy the car? - -Mr. PIC. Well, that old jalopy I have a picture of was falling apart -and before I went in the service she had a ride home from work and the -generator wouldn't generate, and the battery wouldn't battery and it -just kept cutting out, so we needed a new car. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that particular car about which you have just -described--about which you were having trouble--was that the family -car or a car owned by you? - -Mr. PIC. A family car, I never owned a car, sir, when I lived at home. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you had urged her to buy a new car to replace -that one? - -Mr. PIC. We all wanted a new car, sir, because the other one wouldn't -run. She had to get it pushed every morning to get to work. She would -have us out in the street waving down people to help her get the car -pushed. - -Further on, sir, "I wrote you and told you about a girl loaning me $50 -on my ring. I lost the ring and wasn't able to pay it." Sir, I wouldn't -believe that. I am sure at that time I didn't. And the way she goes on -the next page, "Cox found out about me borrowing" and let her go. I -don't believe this. - -Mr. JENNER. The next letter, Exhibit No. 32-B, and in an envelope -marked in 1950, it says "Dear John, Well, I have the house in Benbrook -up for sale." Could you read the name? - -Mr. PIC. It appears to me to be J. Piner Powell Real Estate is handling -it. Do you want me to read on? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. PIC. "The problem is to find someone with enough cash as a loan -company won't make a new loan and I have about $2,600 in it. Nothing -but bad news. Up to date I am still not working." Read on, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. That is about enough. Did your mother write you a letter -that had good news in it? - -Mr. PIC. I never recall one, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Around your home was the atmosphere that, "We are poor -but we will get along?" as your mother sought to lead you boys to -accommodate yourselves to the circumstances that everything would turn -out all right eventually? - -Mr. PIC. None of us really paid much attention to this, sir. I didn't, -and I am sure Robert didn't. I don't think Lee did because Robert and I -would probably talk and we didn't pay much attention to it. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard it so often you just became inured to it, -hardened to it; is that it? - -Mr. PIC. Well, we didn't believe it after the problems she put on. -Just like when my wife and I got married she sent a package containing -Revere Ware which I haven't received yet and she swears up and down she -sent it, and she has never gotten it in the return mail either. And I -know she never sent anything. When we would be home alone, before she -would return from work, we have a rather friendly atmosphere, but as -soon as she came home we all got into that depression rut again. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your---- - -Mr. PIC. This is prior to my going in the service, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. There were times that the atmosphere around your home was -depressing? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that due largely to your mother? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The things she said and the attitudes she assumed? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And while you and your brother got along well you boys were -not getting along well with your mother in that sense? - -Mr. PIC. Robert and I and Lee, we had our fights among us, like all -brothers do. But we could handle ourselves and our own problems, but -the atmosphere just changed when she was around. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your mother ever say anything about whether people -liked her or disliked her? - -Mr. PIC. She didn't have to. She didn't have many friends and usually -the new friends she made she didn't keep very long. - -Mr. JENNER. That was her history? - -Mr. PIC. I remember every time we moved she always had fights with the -neighbors or something or another. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she a person who was resentful of the status of others? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you boys were aware of that, were you? - -Mr. PIC. I was aware of it. She always--I remember once when we lived -on Eighth Avenue, I believe was the place, the people named McLean -living next to us, of course he was an attorney and everything, and -they had some money, and my mother---- - -Mr. JENNER. What town was this? - -Mr. PIC. This was Fort Worth, sir. My mother remarked to me once that -Mrs. McLean had said she went and played the slot machines and lost -$100 in it, and she raved and ranted about this for half an hour or an -hour about how this woman could go and waste $100 and what she could do -with it and everything. She resented the fact this woman lost her own -money. - -Mr. JENNER. I haven't found a single letter yet, Sergeant, in which -your mother fails to mention the subject of money. - -Mr. PIC. You may find a Christmas card, "Love, Mother," sir. - -Mr. JENNER. A letter? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't think you will. These are only part of -them. I threw out a whole bunch a couple of years ago. They were all -basically the same. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your mother loving and affectionate toward you boys? - -Mr. PIC. I would say for myself, sir, I wasn't to her. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that? - -Mr. PIC. I was not toward her. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. PIC. I had no motherly love feeling toward her. Like I say, I think -I first became resentful to her when she informed me I would not return -to the military school and from then my hostilities toward her grew. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, up to that point, what had been your feeling toward -your mother? - -Mr. PIC. We had never been in a very affectionate family, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is affectionate with respect to the boys toward your -mother? - -Mr. PIC. That is right, sir; kissing her, and things like this. It -is my own opinion that she is out right now to make as much money as -she can on her relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald. That is the only -thing--I don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. I -think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. I -think she is a phony in the whole deal. - -Also, I think you will find with myself, Robert and Lee, also, that we -didn't have these or don't have these feelings towards money that she -does. I mean I live on my base pay and I have for years, and Robert -makes the best what he can, and whenever we get together, we never -discuss money. The only time I seen Lee as an adult he didn't discuss -it, not to the extent that we were used to, we never felt this way. - -Mr. JENNER. It is your information, is it, that your mother's first -marriage was to your father? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Her second, then, to Robert Lee Edward Oswald? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And her third to E. A. Ekdahl? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So far as you know she has not been married otherwise than -those three occasions? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; Has she? - -Mr. JENNER. We don't know, if she has we don't know anything about it. - -Did your brother Lee on the occasion on Thanksgiving Day 1962 say -anything about whether he had had a hard time in Russia? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a hard time in the sense of earning a living? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or some other sense? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; earning a living. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you recall he said in that connection? - -Mr. PIC. That he made about $80 a month, and it wasn't the money so -much. It was the products were not available to him and also his wife -to get even with the money, and they consistently ate cabbage and he -was tired of cabbage, and he struck me he was not complaining about -the money but the availability of food. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression that he had become disenchanted with -Russia? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I got this impression. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear him say anything while you were boys -in which he expressed dissatisfaction with the United States or its -Government? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He made no comment on that subject when you saw him on -Thanksgiving Day 1962? - -Mr. PIC. I think his only bitter feelings that I recollect was his -dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps. This was the only bitter -feelings he reported to me in anyway. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you tell us what he said as--did he -return to that subject repeatedly? What leads you now to conclude or -state by way of conclusion that he was bitter about that? - -Mr. PIC. I think the idea of driving came up, the talk about -automobiles. I also think that he made the statement---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you say that is your present recollection? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. PIC. I also think that he made the statement that he---- - -Mr. JENNER. Here, again, you mean to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, that he made the -statement he wasn't driving because of this dishonorable discharge he -received. He was unable to obtain a driver's license. Then he told -me he was attempting to get this changed, and he had written several -letters to the Secretary of the Navy about getting it changed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the then Governor Connally in that -connection? - -Mr. PIC. I believe he did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Governor Connally was not then Secretary of the Navy. Did -he express any resentment toward Governor Connally? - -Mr. PIC. I think when he explained it to me---- - -Mr. JENNER. Please, you have said again "I think." - -Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, sir, when he mentioned to -me that he had written to get it changed, Governor Connally was the -Secretary of the Navy. He did mention the name Connally. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or get the impression that he -was bitter toward Governor Connally as a person? He was not, then, of -course---- - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Secretary of the Navy. - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; just the fact that the man had the job and he was the -man he had written it to. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about Fair Play for Cuba Committee on -this occasion? - -Mr. PIC. There was no discussion about Cuba. I think this was right -after the Cuban crisis, and I think we may have talked about the -mobilization a little bit. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he express any views on that subject? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy discussed at anytime? - -Mr. PIC. I don't recollect, sir. - -He struck me on that meeting as really only having two purposes: One, -to straighten out the dishonorable discharge and the other one to pay -back the Government the money it had lent him to come back to the -United States. - -Mr. JENNER. You were interested--Charlie Murret was a dentist and -a graduate of Louisiana State University. Joyce Murret married an -athletic coach and lives in Beaumont, Tex.? - -Mr. PIC. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Gene Murret you have mentioned. He is a seminarian at -Mobile, Ala. Boogie Murret works for Squibb & Co. He is a graduate of -Loyola of New Orleans. - -Mr. PIC. Someone mentioned, I don't know if it was Vada or my brother, -Robert---- - -Mr. JENNER. On this Thanksgiving Day occasion? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; after they had left, that Marina's uncle, brother, some -relation, was an officer in the Russian Army. She had stated she had a -relative in the Soviet armed forces. - -Mr. JENNER. It was your impression that either Vada had or Robert had? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Some of the witnesses have testified that Lee was quick -to anger as a boy. Do you remember anything about that? What is your -impression about that? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a considerate young man? - -Mr. PIC. I think towards Robert and myself he was, sir. Towards other -people, no. - -Mr. JENNER. Was his attitude towards other people different from that -which he had toward you and Robert? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. In what respect--what did you notice about him in that -regard? - -Mr. PIC. He would rather play with us than play with other children, -and he always wanted to go with us wherever we went. Whenever we had -a birthday or Christmas he would never forget us. I think he was very -considerate towards Robert and myself. - -Mr. JENNER. From time to time we have been off the record and had some -discussions in discussing documents and other things. Do you recall -anything we discussed off the record that you think is pertinent here -that I have failed to place on the record? - -Mr. PIC. I don't remember what has been off the record, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I will put it this way then: Is there anything you would -like to add at the moment now that I am about to finish questioning you -that you think you would like to have on the record? - -Mr. PIC. If you are interested in my opinions---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; anything that you want to add. - -Mr. PIC. I think, I believe that Lee Oswald did the crime that he is -accused of. I think that anything he may have done was aided with a -little extra push from his mother in the living conditions that she -presented to him. I also think that his reason for leaving the Marine -Corps is not true and accurate. I mean I don't think he cared to get -out of the Marine Corps to help his mother. He probably used this as an -excuse to get out and go to his defection. - -I know myself I wouldn't have gotten out of the service because of her, -and I am sure Robert wouldn't either, and this makes me believe that -Lee wouldn't have. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student was your brother, do you know, do -you recall, rather? - -Mr. PIC. I think in elementary school he was fairly good, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But then in the later grades, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th? - -Mr. PIC. I have no idea, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that is about all. I sure appreciate your coming, and -the Commission likewise, at some inconvenience to yourself. You will be -able to catch that 9:50 plane in the morning and get yourself back to -your son's birthday party. - -Mr. PIC. I hope what I have told you has been something new and not -repetitious. - -Mr. JENNER. Much of what you have told us has been new. Much of -what you have told us has been very helpful to us in the way of -corroborating matters about which we were not fully informed or in -doubt, and opinions have been expressed particularly with respect to -your brother have been helpful. - -That leads me to ask you this further question: Give me your overall -impression of your brother Lee Oswald as a personality, as he developed. - -Mr. PIC. Sir; I remember Lee Oswald as a child, up until about the age -of 11 or 12. To me, he appeared a normal healthy robust boy who would -get in fights and still have his serious moments. - -Mr. JENNER. You got in fights, too, didn't you? - -Mr. PIC. Sure. - -Mr. JENNER. And your brother Robert? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. These are not fights that you would regard as other than -boys getting into? - -Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, it wasn't because he was unduly belligerent? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead. - -Mr. PIC. He got in his usual trouble around the neighborhood as far as -getting in people's yards, probably, and letting the dog go astray, -normal healthy boy. - -I think as he became older, prior to me entering the service, he became -slightly cocky and belligerent toward his mother. He never showed any -of this toward Robert or myself. I am afraid it probably rubbed off of -Robert and myself and it affected Lee, because we didn't really take -much stock into what she was saying. I don't think we were as cocky, as -belligerent as he was. There was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think that was a defensive mechanism, on his part? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your mother ever say anything around your home about -that employers were overreaching her, and employers overreached poor -working people or anything along those lines? - -Mr. PIC. No; she always reminded us she worked like a slave to provide -for us three boys. She couldn't wait for a day we would grow up and -support her. - -When Lee visited us in New York he came there a friendly, nice -easy-to-like kid. - -Mr. JENNER. This is 1952 in the summer? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he had the interest of boys at that age, the Museum -of Natural History, sightseeing excursions and so forth. Until the -incident where I talked to him we never had a bad word between us other -than maybe joking or playing around. I tried to interest him in a hobby -of building boats or collecting stamps again while he was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Had he been interested in those two hobbies? - -Mr. PIC. Yes; he and I, all three of us collected stamps. I played -chess with Lee quite a bit and Robert, too. We all did this. Played -monopoly together, the three of us. - -When I approached him on this knife-pulling incident he became very -hostile towards me. And he was never the same again with me. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the first time he had ever been hostile in that -sense towards you? - -Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that rupture was never repaired thereafter? - -Mr. PIC. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression when you saw him on -Thanksgiving of 1962 that in the meantime he had become embittered, -resentful of his station? - -Mr. PIC. Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 -was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous. This -person struck me as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who had these -purposes I mentioned, to do something about. - -Mr. JENNER. What purposes? - -Mr. PIC. To repay the Government and get his discharge changed. - -It appeared to me that he was a good father towards his child, and not -knowing the conversation between he and his wife I couldn't form much -of an opinion there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir; that is about it. - -Mr. PIC. OK, sir; thank you very much. - -Mr. JENNER. This transcript will be prepared by the reporters and it -will be sent to your commanding officer, and would you please get it -immediately and read it and sign it. - -If you make any corrections in it, put your initials beside the -correction, or over, above, your initial somewhere around the -correction so we know it is you who did it, and return it to us as -promptly as possible. - -It may be that the Secret Service will bring it out, but it will be -delivered to you next week. - -All right. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR. - -The following affidavit was executed by Edward John Pic, Jr., on June -16, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -Edward John Pic, Jr., 6 Jay Street, New Orleans, La., being duly sworn -says: - -1. I am the same Edward John Pic, Jr., who was deposed by Albert E. -Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the President's Commission -on the Assassination of President Kennedy, on April 7, 1964. When -Marguerite Claverie Pic and I separated after we had lived together a -year, we resided in a house on Genois Street, south of Canal Street, -in New Orleans. This was a rented house. The rent was either $28 or -$30 per month. At no time prior to our separation did Marguerite work. -During all of that period she was a housewife. - -2. I neither refused nor failed to support her either during or after -our marriage. There were personality and incompatibility difficulties -between us commencing at an early stage of our marriage. We just -couldn't get along, things kept getting worse and worse. Marguerite -was aware of my earning capacity at the time we married. There were -difficulties between us respecting money and household financial -management, but this was only one of the sources of the difficulties. -My financial situation did not worsen after our marriage. - -3. Marguerite's pregnancy with my son John Edward Pic was not the cause -of our separation. I had no objection to children. It was a coincidence -that about that time we had reached the point that we could not make -a go with each other any more. Our separation which was amicable -and which was arranged through an attorney would have taken place -irrespective of Marguerite's pregnancy with my son John Edward Pic. - -4. As I testified in my deposition, Marguerite was a nice girl. I -haven't anything whatsoever adverse to say against her, it is just that -we couldn't get along. Our dispositions would not jell. I do not mean -to imply that the fault, if any, lay with either of us. We just didn't -get along. - -5. My distinct recollection is that I had no difficulty maintaining the -household and supporting my family though there was some difference -between Marguerite and me as to the manner, style and the level on -which our household should be maintained. - -Signed the 16th day of June 1964. - - (S) Edward John Pic, Jr., - EDWARD JOHN PIC, Jr. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF KERRY WENDELL THORNLEY - -The testimony of Kerry Wendell Thornley was taken at 9:40 a.m., on May -18, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. John -Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Thornley, in the deposition you are about to give, do -you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. You are Kerry Wendell Thornley, spelled K-e-r-r-y -W-e-n-d-e-l-l T-h-o-r-n-l-e-y? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Thornley, where do you reside now? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At 4201 South 31st Street in Arlington, Va. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you at one time reside at 1824 Dauphine Street in New -Orleans? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your present occupation? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I am a doorman at the building where I reside, -Shirlington House. - -Mr. JENNER. Doorman. - -Mr. THORNLEY. At the building where I reside. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the name of that building? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Shirlington House. I also work on the switchboard there -three nights a week. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mr. Thornley, you received, did you not, -a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission in -which he enclosed---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. Confirming this appointment---- - -Mr. JENNER. Copies of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, -authorizing the creation of the Commission and President Johnson's -Order 11130, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its -powers and duties and responsibilities? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And also a copy of the rules and regulations of the -Commission for the taking of depositions? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you understand the basic obligation placed -upon the Commission is to investigate the facts and circumstances -surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of President Kennedy, -and events collateral thereto. - -In the course of doing that the Commission and its staff, and I, Albert -E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the Commission legal staff, have been -interviewing and taking the testimony of various persons who, among -other things, came in contact with a man named Lee Harvey Oswald. We -understand that you had some contact with him, fortuitous or otherwise -as it might be. Are we correct in that? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the--may I ask you this first. Were you -born and reared in this country? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you married or unmarried? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Unmarried. - -Mr. JENNER. Unmarried you said? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your age? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I am 26. - -Mr. JENNER. When was your birthday? - -Mr. THORNLEY. April 17, this last month. - -Mr. JENNER. April 17 of this last month? I am poor in mathematics, what -year was your birth? - -Mr. THORNLEY. 1938. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I was--it was around Easter of 1959, either shortly -before or shortly after. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's see. He was in the Marines at that time? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you also were? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How long had you been in the Marines? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At that time I had been in the Marines over half a year. -I had been in the Reserve for many years. I had been on active duty for -over half a year. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then 21 years of age? - -Mr. THORNLEY. About; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about what your occupation and activity had been up -to the time you enlisted in the Marines. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, the year before I was a student at the University -of Southern California, and before that I was a student at California -High School in Whittier, Calif. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then that you are a native Californian? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive your degree? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. I was--I completed my freshman year and then I went -on active duty to serve my 2-year obligation in the Marine Reserve. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not return to college after you were mustered out -of the Marines? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your discharge honorable? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you based when you first met Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At a subsidiary of El Toro Marine Base, referred to as -LTA, Santa Ana, Calif., or just outside of Santa Ana. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At that time I was acting corporal. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your assignment then? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I was an aviation electronics operator. I was working in -an aircraft control center reading radarscopes and keeping track of -ingoing and outgoing flights. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Harvey Oswald's assignment and activity -service-wise at that period? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At that time his assignments and activities were primary -janitorial. He was--he had lost his clearance previously, and if I -remember, he was assigned to make the coffee, mow the lawn, swab down -decks, and things of this nature. - -Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances as you learned of them, or knew -of them at the time, as to how or why he lost his clearance as you put -it. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I asked somebody, and I was told, and I don't -remember who told me, it was a general rumor, general scuttlebutt -at the time, that he had poured beer over a staff NCO's head in an -enlisted club in Japan, and had been put in the brig for that, and -having been put in the brig would automatically lose his clearance to -work in the electronics control center. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you what losing clearance meant. You -have indicated that--or would you state it more specifically. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, that meant in a practical sense, that meant that he -was not permitted to enter certain areas wherein the equipment, in this -case equipment, was kept; that we would not want other unauthorized -persons to have knowledge of. And on occasion information, I imagine, -would also come to the man who was cleared, in the process of his work, -that he would be expected to keep to himself. - -Mr. JENNER. I assume you had clearance? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; I was, I think, cleared for confidential at the -time. - -Mr. JENNER. Cleared for confidential. I was about to ask you what level -of clearance was involved. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I believe it was just confidential to work there at El -Toro on that particular equipment. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the clearance about which you speak when you talk -about Oswald having lost it? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Oswald, I believe, had a higher clearance. This is also -just based upon rumor. I believe he at one time worked in the security -files, it is the S & C files, somewhere either at LTA or at El Toro. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever work in the security files? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was a level of clearance---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. Probably a secret clearance would be required. - -Mr. JENNER. It was at least higher than the clearance about which you -first spoke? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The clearance that you had in mind of which you first spoke -was the clearance to operate radar detection devices? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And your knowledge of his loss of clearance was by hearsay -or rumor. As I understand it the circumstances took place off base one -day? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; this was on base as I understand it. It was in an -enlisted club or staff sergeant's club, something of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. He had gotten into difficulty with a staff sergeant and had -poured beer on the person of a staff sergeant and gotten into some kind -of an altercation? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. As a result of that he was court-martialed and had been -subjected to the loss of clearance? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that clearance of his restored? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I doubt it very much, because 3 months afterwards, after -I had left the outfit--I know it wasn't restored while I was in the -outfit. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you leave the outfit? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I left in June and went overseas. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to that time his clearance had not been restored? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely not. And shortly thereafter he got out of the -service. - -Mr. JENNER. So that as far as you have any personal knowledge Oswald -never operated any radar equipment while he was at El Toro, did you say? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; El Toro, LTA. As far as my personal knowledge goes, -he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state the circumstances under which you became -acquainted--let me put it this way first. What was the extent of your -acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, and here at the moment I am -directing myself only to whether you were friends, were you merely -on the base together? Indicate the level of friendship first or -acquaintanceship. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I would say we were close acquaintances in the sense that -we weren't friends in that we didn't pull liberty together or seek -each other out, yet when we were thrown together in an assignment or -something, moving equipment, something of that nature, we spoke and -when we were on the base and happened to be in the same area and were -not required to be working, we would sometimes sit down and discuss -things. That would be my statement there. - -Mr. JENNER. So there was a degree of affinity in the sense that you -were friendly in performing your military tasks together whenever you -were thrown together in that respect. You felt friendly toward each -other. You were never off base with him on liberty? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. There were times when you were at liberty on the base, I -assume, and you and he fraternized? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did you live in the same quarters? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, not actually. We lived in quonset huts there, and -he lived in a different hut than I did. We did live in the same general -area, however. - -Mr. JENNER. This acquaintance arose in the spring of 1959, is that -correct? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time a little more definitely than merely -the spring? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I really can't, sir. I have been racking my brain on -that one since November, and I can't fix the time. I do remember -having taken some time off that year around Easter and going on a trip -with some civilian friends of mine, who were out of school for Easter -vacation, and I know I was in the outfit that Oswald was in at that -time, and I know that either shortly before that trip or shortly -afterwards. I can remember from the books I was reading at the time and -things like that, that I met him. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you associate the books you were reading at that time -with anything Oswald may have been reading? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Oswald was not reading but did advise me to read -George Orwell's "1984" which I read at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he on the base when you came there? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I was on the base in a different outfit before I -came into MACS 9, the outfit I was in. - -Mr. JENNER. Marine Air Control Squadron. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I was in MACS 4 which was right next door to MACS 9 or -was at that time, on the base. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of his presence when you were in the other -MACS? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; not until I came into his outfit. And only sometime -after I came into that outfit did I become aware of his presence. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you--I will withdraw that. Was Oswald as far as you -knew on the base before you came over to his unit? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I would assume so, but I wouldn't know for sure. I know -he was recently back from Japan as were most of the men in Marine -Control Squadron 9 when I came into it. How long he had been back I -don't know. I certainly didn't know at that time. And thinking on what -knowledge of him I have gained since then, I still couldn't say. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, in any event you first became acquainted with or -aware of his presence around Easter time in 1959? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were transferred from that base when? - -Mr. THORNLEY. June. - -Mr. JENNER. In June. So likely it was that you knew him in April, May, -and in June until you were transferred out? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. When in June were you transferred out? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Once again the exact date would be available in my -military record, but offhand---- - -Mr. JENNER. Give it to me as best you recall it, forepart, latter part, -middle? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Let's see, it was toward the latter part. In fact, I can -give you pretty close to the exact date. It was around June 25, because -we arrived in Japan on July 4 and it took 11 days to get over there. It -took us some time to get debarked or to get embarked, rather. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I take it from the remark you have made in your -reflecting on this matter that you were--you devoted yourself to some -fairly considerable extent to reading? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And in what fields? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Completely omniverous. Anything that I would happen -to get a hold of I would read. At that time I was reading, well, at -Oswald's advice I read "1984." At someone else's advice I was reading -a book called "Humanism," by Corliss Lamont, as I remember, and I was -reading either "The Brothers Karamazov" or the "Idiot" by Dostoievsky, -I forget which, at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. But your reading had some reasonable amount of organization -or direction? - -Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever; no, sir. It never has. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. You weren't engaged in any organized reading at that -time, were you? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. But there were areas which did draw your attention by and -large? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What were those areas? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Philosophy, politics, religion. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you find that Oswald had reasonably similar interests? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. In his reading? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I would say particularly in politics and philosophy. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it those mutual interests that brought about your -acquaintance with him or some other fashion? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; it was those interests. My first memory of him -is that one afternoon he was sitting on a bucket out in front of a -hut, an inverted bucket, with some other Marines. They were discussing -religion. I entered the discussion. It was known already in the outfit -that I was an atheist. Immediately somebody pointed out to me that -Oswald was also an atheist. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they point that out to you in his presence? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What reaction did he have to that? - -Mr. THORNLEY. He said, "What do you think of communism?" and I said---- - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't say anything about having been pointed out as -being an atheist? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; he wasn't offended at this at all. He was--it was -done in a friendly manner, anyway, and he just said to me--the first -thing he said to me was with his little grin; he looked at me and he -said, "What do you think of communism?" And I replied I didn't think -too much of communism, in a favorable sense, and he said, "Well, I -think the best religion is communism." And I got the impression at -the time that he said this in order to shock. He was playing to the -galleries, I felt. - -Mr. JENNER. The boys who were sitting around? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Engaged in scuttlebutt? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right. He was smirking as he said this and he said it -very gently. He didn't seem to be a glass-eyed fanatic by any means. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to discuss the same subject -thereafter? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From time to time? - -Mr. THORNLEY. From time to time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it reasonably frequent? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I would say about a half dozen times in that time period. - -Mr. JENNER. In those subsequent discussions were some of them private -in the sense you were not gathered around with others? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I don't recall us ever having a private serious -discussion. A couple of times we were working together. There would be -others around, not on a constant basis anyway, but coming and going, -and as I recall a couple of times we were thrown together. Working -together, we weren't having a serious discussion; we were joking. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion in those additional half dozen -instances of discussions with him, the viewpoint you have just -expressed, that is, that his initial raising of the issue was more by -way of provoking or shocking those about him rather than any utterances -on his part of sincerity in a belief that communism was itself a -religion? - -Mr. THORNLEY. It became obvious to me after a while, in talking to -him, that definitely he thought that communism was the best--that the -Marxist morality was the most rational morality to follow that he knew -of. And that communism was the best system in the world. - -I still certainly wouldn't--wouldn't have predicted, for example, his -defection to the Soviet Union, because once again he seemed idle in his -admiration for communism. He didn't seem to be an activist. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain what you mean by idle in his admiration -of the communistic system? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, it seemed to be theoretical. It seemed strictly a -dispassionate appraisal--I did know at the time that he was learning -the Russian language. I knew he was subscribing to Pravda or a Russian -newspaper of some kind from Moscow. All of this I took as a sign of his -interest in the subject, and not as a sign of any active commitment to -the Communist ends. - -Mr. JENNER. You felt there was no devotion there. That it was somewhat -of an intellectual interest, a curiosity. But I don't want to put words -in your mouth, so tell me. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I wouldn't put it quite that weakly. While I didn't feel -there was any rabid devotion there, I wouldn't call it a complete idle -curiosity either. I would call it a definite interest. - -Mr. JENNER. A definite interest. - -Mr. THORNLEY. But not a fanatical devotion. - -Mr. JENNER. You said you knew at that time that he was studying -Russian. How did you become aware of that? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Probably by hearsay once again. I do remember one time -hearing the comment made by one man in the outfit that there was some -other man in the outfit who was taking a Russian newspaper and who was -a Communist and when I said, "Well, who is that?" he said, "Oswald," -and I said, "Oh, well." That is probably where I learned it. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that he was a subscriber to Pravda and -the other Russian publications you have mentioned? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I don't think--it was either Pravda or some other -Russian publication. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. THORNLEY. The way I learned that was a story that I believe Bud -Simco, a friend of mine in the same outfit, in the outfit at the same -time, told me that one time a lieutenant, and I forget which lieutenant -it was (I do remember at the time I did know who he was talking about) -found out that Oswald, by--he happened to be in the mailroom or -something, and saw a paper with Oswald's address on it. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the officer happened to be in the mailroom? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; and that it was written--he noticed this paper was -written in Russian and at the time got very excited, attempted to -draw this to the attention of Oswald's section chief, the commanding -officer, and, of course, there was nothing these people could do -about it, and at the time the story was related to me. I remember -I thought it was rather humorous that this young, either second or -first lieutenant should get so excited because Oswald happened to be -subscribing to a Russian newspaper. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this lieutenant's name Delprado? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I will bet it was. That is very familiar. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever subscribed to a Russian language newspaper or -other publications? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Other Russian publications? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever subscribed to a publication that was printed -in the Russian language? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been a subscriber to any literature by way of -news media or otherwise, published by any organization reputed to be -communistic or pink or that sort of thing? I don't want to get it too -broad. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Only I. F. Stone's newsletter and that certainly---- - -Mr. JENNER. Whose? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I. F. Stone's newsletter and I wouldn't say---- - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. - -Mr. THORNLEY. He is a Washington reporter who is a rather extreme -leftist, but certainly within the bounds of what is accepted in this -country as non-subversive. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe yourself in that respect. Where are you, a -middle-of-the-roader? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I would say I am an extreme rightist. I call myself a -libertarian, which is that I believe in the complete sovereignty of -the individual, or at least as much individual liberty as is practical -under any given system. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't have to be an extreme rightist to believe in the -sovereignty of the individual. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, it is getting that way in this country today. At -least most people who listen to me talk call me a rightist. I wouldn't -say so either. I think the political spectrum was fine for France at -the time of the revolution. I don't think it applies to the United -States of America today in any respect whatsoever. I don't think you -can call a man an extreme leftist, rightist, or middle-of-the-roader -and have him classified that simply. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any brothers and sisters? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I have two brothers. - -Mr. JENNER. What do they do? - -Mr. THORNLEY. They go to, one of them goes to junior college, I -believe, and the other one goes to high school. They are in Whittier, -Calif. - -Mr. JENNER. Are your folks alive? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What does your father do? - -Mr. THORNLEY. He is a photoengraver. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's get back to Oswald. Describe this individual to me. -First describe him physically. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Physically, I would say he was slightly below average -height. Had, as I recall, gray or blue eyes. Always had, or almost -always had a petulant expression on his face. Pursed-up lip expression, -either a frown or a smile, depending on the circumstances. Was of -average build, and his hair was brown, and tending to, like mine, -tending to bald a little on each side. - -Mr. JENNER. Above the temple. What would you say he weighed? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I would say he weighed about 140 pounds, maybe 130. - -Mr. JENNER. How tall was he? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I would say he was about five-five maybe. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. How tall are you? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I am five-ten. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he shorter than you? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What habits did he have with respect to his person--was he -neat, clean? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Extremely sloppy. - -Mr. JENNER. Extremely sloppy? - -Mr. THORNLEY. He was. This I think might not have been true of him in -civilian life. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know one way or the other? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; but I do have reason to believe that it wasn't true -of him in civilian life because it fitted into a general personality -pattern of his: to do whatever was not wanted of him, a recalcitrant -trend in his personality. - -Mr. JENNER. You think it was deliberate? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think it tended to be deliberate; yes. It was a gesture -of rebellion on his part. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss that matter with him, as dress. - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The attitude of rebellion? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; because this attitude of rebellion was a fairly -common thing in the service. - -Mr. JENNER. On the part of others as well as Oswald? - -Mr. THORNLEY. As well as Oswald. Oswald did carry it to--was the most -extreme example I can think of stateside. However, overseas, in the -outfit he had been in before, as I discovered later, this was quite -common. - -Mr. JENNER. How much later? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Three months--well, immediately, as soon as I left, as -soon as I got overseas. I walked in to the barracks on the Fourth -of July over there and saw beer bottles spread all over, and some -character sitting in the back of the barracks with a broken beer bottle -cutting his arm, for what reason I don't remember. They found beer cans -in a trash can in MACS 9 and there was a drastic investigation; so -there is an indication of a difference between stateside and overseas. -Oswald was typical, very typical of the outfit he had just left -overseas. - -Mr. JENNER. So that it is your impression, you would say. I gather, -that as of that particular time when you first knew him that he was -still carrying some of his experience personal attentionwise from what -he had experienced overseas? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was still following the habits he had acquired -overseas? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you think it went beyond that, this unkemptness or this -sloppiness? - -Mr. THORNLEY. It did go beyond that, because he seemed to be a person -who would go out of his way to get into trouble, get some officer or -staff sergeant mad at him. He would make wise remarks. He had a general -bitter attitude toward the Corps. He used to pull his hat down over his -eyes so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him and go walking -around very Beetle Bailey style. - -Mr. JENNER. What is Beetle Bailey? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Beetle Bailey is a comic strip character who walks around -with his hat over his eyes very much as Oswald did. - -Mr. JENNER. You want to keep in mind, Mr. Thornley, I am an old man and -there are things I don't pick up or get hep to. - -Mr. THORNLEY. This is nothing recent. This is a comic strip that has -been around quite a few years now. - -Mr. JENNER. You go on and tell us about his personality. - -Mr. THORNLEY. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Including any physical characteristics or habits. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think I have covered all physical characteristics. His -shoes were always unshined. As I mentioned, he walked around with the -bill of his cap down over his eyes and you got the impression that he -was doing this so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was doing that so that he would not be assigned -additional work or---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; he was just doing that--this was just an attempt, I -think, on his part, to blot out the military so he wouldn't have to -look at it; he wouldn't have to think about it. In fact, I think he -made a comment to that effect at one time; that when he had his bill of -his cap over his eyes so he would see as little as possible, because he -didn't like what he had to look at. - -He had, as I remember, he had a sense of humor, and I can only think of -a couple of examples of it. I have only been able to think of a couple -of examples of it over the past few months, but I have a strong general -impression in my mind that there were more examples that I just don't -remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you draw on your recollection as best you can and -you just keep telling us now in your own words and I will try to not -interrupt you too much. - -Mr. THORNLEY. All right. One example was, that I remember--of course, -it was well known in the outfit that, or popularly believed that Oswald -had Communist sympathies---- - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't share that view? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not as much as some did, and while this was popularly -believed, I mention this as kind of a framework for the significance of -Oswald's comment: Master Sergeant Spar, our section chief, jumped up -on the fender one day and said, "All right, everybody gather around," -and Oswald said in a very thick Russian accent, "Ah ha, collective farm -lecture," in a very delighted tone. - -This brought him laughs at the time, and he had gotten me to read -"1984," as I mentioned earlier, and this was one of his favorites---- - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me what "1984" was. - -Mr. THORNLEY. This was a book about--it is a projection into the -future, supposed to take place in 1984 in England under a complete -police state. It is, I would say, an anti-utopian novel, by George -Orwell, a criticism of English socialism and what it might lead -to, based upon Orwell's experiences with communism and nazism, his -observations about a society in which a mythical leader called Big -Brother dominates everybody's life. Where there are television cameras -on every individual at all times watching his every act, where sex is -practically outlawed, where the world is perpetually at war, three big -police states constantly at war with one another, and where thought -police keep every, all of the citizens in line. Oswald would often -compare the Marine Corps with the system of government outlined in -"1984." - -I remember one day we were loading equipment---- - -Mr. JENNER. By way of protest against the Marine Corps? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; humorously, satirically. One day we were unloading, -moving a radarscope off the truck and it slipped, and he said, "Be -careful with Big Brother's equipment." - -It was things like this. He did a lot of that. - -I remember one day he--I was walking along with my hands in my pocket, -which is something you don't do in the service if you are--certainly -if you are in an infantry outfit you don't dare. Things were a little -lax in our outfit, so we could get away with it once in a while, so I -happened to be walking along with my hands in my pockets and suddenly I -heard a voice: "Hey, Smith, Winston," and rattle off a serial number, -"get your hands out of your pockets," which was a direct quote from the -book "1984." - -These are the only examples of Oswald's, that particular aspect of -Oswald's character that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. I am stimulated to ask you this question by something you -just said. Did he have a good memory? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think he must have had a good memory; yes. If he wanted -to remember something, he could. I think he also had good ability to -blot out unpleasant thoughts in his mind. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his powers of assimilation of what he read, and -his powers of critique? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I certainly think he understood much more than many -people in the press have seemed to feel. I don't think he was a man who -was grasping onto his particular beliefs because he didn't understand -them. I don't think he was just trying to know something over his head, -by any means. I think he understood what he was talking about. - -Sometimes I think there were gaps in his knowledge. I think there were -many things he didn't know, and this came from a haphazard education. - -Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with the fact that he had had a -somewhat haphazard education? - -Mr. THORNLEY. It was obvious. I didn't become acquainted with it -specifically until recently in the news. But---- - -Mr. JENNER. You had that impression at the time? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I had that impression; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How did that impression arise? Because of the lack of -analysis or real critique on his part of that which he was reading? -Inability to assimilate the thrust of a work? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I wouldn't say that. I would say he could analyze -what he read very well, but it was a very subjective impression, and -the idea I got was that there were a lot of things he didn't know, and -just a lot of facts that he wasn't familiar with. I guess sometimes, -probably in discussions, I would run into something. I would mention -something and he would say, "What is that?" - -I know we did have a couple of very hot arguments and I am sure we were -throwing facts at one another, and he was certainly able to belt them -out when he wanted to, facts that suited his purpose in arguing. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of his--the extent of his formal -education and the extent of any private education of his; that is, -reading--self-education. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Self-education. I was certainly surprised that--when I -read in the papers that he had not graduated, I think they said he had -not graduated from high school. - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I thought he had graduated from high school. I assumed -that. I would say that his self-education certainly must have -been--perhaps, in fact, he took USAFI courses, U.S. Armed Forces -Institute courses, or something along that line, because he was one who -gave the impression of having some education, certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an impression of his intellect? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I think he was---- - -Mr. JENNER. I am speaking in the abstract. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think he was extremely intelligent, with what -information he had at hand he could always do very well and in an -argument he was quick. He was quick to answer, and it was not a matter -of just grabbing at something. It was a matter of coming back with a -fairly precise answer to your question or to your objection to his -argument. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then it was your impression--I will change my -question because I don't want to ask a leading question here. - -What was your impression as to whether his learning, in the sense we -are talking about now, was superficial or was he able to master that -which he read, and engage in personal self-critique of that which he -read, discover its weaknesses, and apprehend its major thrust? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I would say as I have said before, he certainly -understood what he read. How much he had read, I don't know, but I -do know that when he got on a subject in which he was interested, he -showed a grasp of it. This is true with the book "1984," for example. -It is true with Marxism. - -Mr. JENNER. Now that interests me also. You mentioned that before; -that is, his espousal of or interest in Marxism as such. What was his -ability, if he had any, and I am talking now idealistically only, to -compare Marxism, communism, democracy? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I understand. I think---- - -Mr. JENNER. And did he understand the distinctions? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I think he understood the distinctions as well as -most reasonably educated people do. I think he certainly had a Marxist -bias in how--where he drew the lines. - -For example, he could look upon the Soviet system today as a democracy -by, of course, giving a completely different definition to the word -"democracy" than I, for example. He would give---- - -Mr. JENNER. Can you remember some discussions or incidents that explain -that? Would he use objectivism? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I remember one in particular that always reminded -me of his general outlook. - -One day we got into an argument and I thought I was really going to pin -him to the wall, I thought I was going to win this argument. - -Mr. JENNER. On what subject? - -Mr. THORNLEY. On Marxism. On the theory of history. - -Mr. JENNER. Reconstruct the argument for me. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, all right. Let me add this. - -When I was in my freshman year in college, in my English class, I -believe it was, perhaps it was a history class we had been required -to read, it was a history workshop, we had been required to read -the Communist manifesto which presents an outline of the theory of -the Marx-Engels outlook on past and future history. The dialectical -outlook. Oswald was also familiar with this outlook. As to what it -constituted we both agreed. Oswald had argued previously that communism -was a rational approach to life, a scientific approach to life, Marxism. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in argumentation with you? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. THORNLEY. With me. I challenged him to show me any shred of -evidence to support the idea that history took place in the manner -described by Engels and Marx (this was not just an arbitrary system -looted as many suspect, from Hegel) and he, after some attempt to give -me a satisfactory answer, which he was unable to do, became aware of -that and he admitted that there was no justification, logically, for -the Communist theory of history or the Marxist theory of history, but -that Marxism was still, in his opinion, the best system for other -reasons that there was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Best as against what? - -Mr. THORNLEY. As against, well primarily as against religions. He -did--that first comment of his always sticks in my mind, about -communism being the best religion. He did think of communism as, not as -a religion in the strict sense but as an overwhelming cultural outlook -that, once applied to a country, would make it much better off than, -say the Roman Catholic Church cultural outlook or the Hindu cultural -outlook or the Islamic cultural outlook, and he felt that, as I say, to -get back to this argument, he felt that there were enough other things -about communism that justified it that one could accept the theory of -history on faith. - -Mr. JENNER. What other things? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, for one thing: the idea that he felt--as did -Marx--that under capitalism workers are exploited, that in some way -they are robbed of their full reward for their work by means of -entrepreneurs' profits, and he felt that Marxism took his money but -instead of taking it away from the worker spent it on the worker. - -He felt that under a Soviet--under the present Soviet system, for -example, that the money was spent for the benefit of the people rather -than going to the individual who happened to be running the enterprise, -and he thought this was a juster situation. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you raise with him the price the individual had to pay -for the material accommodation accorded the worker under the Communist -system; for the substance or money, of which you speak, being returned -to the worker? The price paid in terms of individual liberty as against -the capitalistic or democratic system? - -Mr. THORNLEY. You couldn't say this to him. Because he would say: "How -do you know? How do you know what is going on there." - -Mr. JENNER. First; did you raise it with him? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I raised it with him. - -Mr. JENNER. You being a libertarian as you say? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, at that time I was--my ideas have changed since -that time. At that time I was much to the left in my political thinking -once again; well, I would say about in the same position that Mr. Stone -who I spoke of earlier is now. I was on the "left-hand" side of the -acceptable political spectrum in this country, and so, therefore, these -issues, the issues I would now raise with him had I again the chance to -speak to him, would be much different than the issues I raised with him -at that time. I did not raise that issue particularly, I did not push -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there much, if any, discussion at the time on the issue -of individual liberty? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; very little, because I wasn't too concerned about it -at the time and neither was he. We were both concerned about what was -the best for the greatest number of people. I don't think that concept -was clear to either one of us. - -Mr. JENNER. But, even having in mind the status of your political -thinking at that moment, your political thinking did not square with -his? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I was opposed to the great trust that he put in, much -greater than I suspected at that time, of course, trust that he put in -the Soviet Government in the world today I felt they were misguided -idealists. He felt they weren't misguided. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us as best you can recall his comments and views with -respect to capitalism of the variety then existing, or as he understood -existed in this Nation. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I wouldn't say that we--I can't recall us having -gone into any detail about anything so relevant to anything as -capitalism in this Nation at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. These discussions were broader. They were more abstract? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Usually, yes. Whenever we got specific we usually -discussed the Marine Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. You did not discuss the United States of America as -such? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And the Soviet Union as such, and compared the two -countries? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, as I say, you couldn't do this with Oswald because -whenever you tried to make any statement about the Soviet Union he -would challenge it on the grounds that we were probably propagandized -in this country and we had no knowledge of what was going on over there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he purport to know what was going on over there? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he show any interest in what was going on over there? - -Mr. THORNLEY. He definitely showed interest. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us some examples and tell us. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I would say he took an agnostical approach to this. It -seemed that he didn't know whether to believe what he read in his -Russian newspaper, not that he used those exact words, or what he heard -in this country. He took the attitude that "Well, they may be right and -we may be right but I suspect they are right." This, of course, once -again, I always got the impression in any of these discussions that -part of his slight bias toward the Communist way of life was an act of -rebellion against the present circumstances. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think that bias, if any, was a mild bias? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I thought so at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression at anytime that he was -interested from an objective standpoint; that he might like to -experience by way of personal investigation what was going on in Russia? - -Mr. THORNLEY. It never dawned on me. It was the farthest thing from -my mind. Although I certainly will say this: When he did go to Russia -it seemed to me as a much more likely alternative for Oswald than say -joining the Communist Party in the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -Mr. THORNLEY. It seemed to fit his personality. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read that? I lost the thought of it. - -(The reporter read the answer.) - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, Oswald was not militant. At the time it didn't seem -to me he was at all militant. That he was at all a fighter, the kind -of person who would glory in thinking of himself as marching along in -a great crusade of some kind. He would be the kind of person who would -take a quiet, as quiet as possible, for him personally, approach to -something. For example, going to the Soviet Union would be a way he -could experience what he thought were the benefits of communism without -committing himself to storming the Bastille, so to speak. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement that, in seeking to interpret or -enlarge upon what you say, that you did not have the impression of -him as being a person who thought in terms of seeking to implant in -this country, for example, by force or violence or other leadership, -communism or Marxism so as materially to affect or change the -government here? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I don't think he felt he had to do that. I think he -felt that that would inevitably happen some day and he was just getting -into the swing of things by doing things his way. I don't think he felt -that he could do much to promote the Communist cause or hinder it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever lead you to believe or did you have the -impression that he had any thought or desire or inclination to implant -communism here or elsewhere. - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; not any more than merely to with the argument. He -certainly would have liked to have converted me or any other person -who was willing to discuss it with him. He would have liked to have -persuaded them that his ideas were correct. If he had done so, I have -no idea what he would have done then. I don't think he did either. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his relationships, camaraderie with others on -base? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Almost nil. - -Mr. JENNER. Almost nil. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, he got along---- - -Mr. JENNER. Enlarge on that please. - -Mr. THORNLEY. He got along with very few people. - -Mr. JENNER. Why was that, in your opinion? - -Mr. THORNLEY. He was extremely unpredictable. He and I stopped speaking -before I finally left the outfit. This will give you an example of---- - -Mr. JENNER. How did that arise? - -Mr. THORNLEY. It was a Saturday morning. We had been called out to -march in a parade for a man or some men--I believe they were staff -NCO's--who were retiring from the Marine Corps. This was a common -occurrence. Every now and then we had to give up our Saturday morning -liberty to go march in one of these parades and everybody, of course, -having just gotten up, and having to stand out, to look forward to -a morning of standing out in the hot sun and marching around, was -irritable. So, we were involved at the moment in a "hurry-up and wait -routine" which is common in large organizations like the military. We -were waiting at the moment, in the parking lot by the parade ground, -sitting. Oswald and I happened to be sitting next to each other on a -log that was used to bank cars, in the parking lot. I had just finished -"1984" a couple of days earlier, and I had not yet discussed it with -Oswald, and I was--he said something and I said something; I don't -recall what it was--I was definitely thinking of "1984" at the time and -I was using terms from "1984." Oswald didn't seem to be particularly -amused by what I was saying, and he was--he seemed to be kind of lost -in his own thoughts, and so I stopped making any comments at all to him -for awhile. Then he turned to me and said something about the stupidity -of the parade, of the whole circumstance right at the moment, how angry -it made him, and I said, I believe my words were, "Well, comes the -revolution you will change all that." - -At which time he looked at me like a betrayed Caesar and screamed, -screamed definitely, "Not you, too, Thornley." And I remember his voice -cracked as he said this. He was definitely disturbed at what I had said -and I didn't really think I had said that much. He put his hands in his -pockets and pulled his hat down over his eyes and walked away and went -over and sat down someplace else alone, and I thought, well, you know, -forget about it, and I never said anything to him again and he never -said anything to me again. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean you never spoke to each other from that time on? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; and shortly thereafter I left the outfit for -overseas. I don't recall that we were ever in a situation where we -would have spoken, but I know we never spoke after that. And this -happened with many people, this reaction of Oswald's, and therefore -he had few friends. He never seemed to have any one friend for a long -length of time, one acquaintance. He seemed to guard against developing -real close friendships. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--excuse me, you recall being interviewed by an -agent of the FBI? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This was in New Orleans on Monday the 25th of---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. This was on an afternoon. Does he have the time down? - -Mr. JENNER. 25th of November. - -Mr. THORNLEY. That was Secret Service, wasn't it? Let's see, the 22d, -23d, 24th. - -Mr. JENNER. This was Special Agent Merwin Alderson and Special Agent -Richard Farrell. It was the Monday following the assassination. - -Mr. THORNLEY. What I believe happened is--I believe they arrived in -Arnaud's Restaurant where I was working at the time about midnight -Sunday night so it would actually be Monday, yes, sir, that they talked -to me. I gathered at the time these gentlemen were from the Secret -Service, but those are the gentlemen. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say to them in connection with this sudden -termination of the relationship between yourself and Oswald "that you -had made this comment to Oswald, that he was a Communist and that -things would be different when the revolution came"? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I didn't tell them he was a Communist; no. But -Oswald, certainly that was his reason for his anger. There was an -implied accusation of communism in my saying, "Comes the revolution you -will change all that." - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. THORNLEY. You see, he wasn't understanding the comments I was -making in relation to "1984" at all, our traditional meeting ground -here. He was interpreting them in light of his alleged communism, and -that is why he became angry. But no; I didn't say to him, "You are a -Communist"--ever. - -Mr. JENNER. It is your explanation. - -Mr. THORNLEY. This was not my opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. You are saying that he interpreted your comment to be that -you accused him of being a Communist, and then he made the remark, "Not -you, too." - -Mr. THORNLEY. I am sure he interpreted that that way but I certainly -didn't think he was a Communist and I certainly didn't tell him so. - -Mr. JENNER. To what did you attribute this inability of his to maintain -reasonably cordial or at least military-service family relations with -his fellow marines? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, at the time I just thought--well, the man is a -nut--at the very moment it happened, I dismissed it without thinking -about it. - -Mr. JENNER. See if you can articulate a little more, when you say "a -nut," a lot of people will interpret the expression "a nut" differently. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I understand that. I was just trying to give you my -first impression first: that he was some kind of a nut, and I stopped -thinking about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean a nut in the sense of an extremist, not an -organized thinker? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I didn't think about that enough to classify it. I just -thought, "something is wrong with him, maybe something is bugging him -today, maybe he is crazy, I don't know what," but I just wasn't at that -moment--it wasn't that important to me, I didn't feel much better than -he did that morning, I am sure, so I just shrugged it off. - -Later, I did reflect on it, and that, combined with his general -habits in relation to his superiors, and to the other men in the -outfit, caused me to decide that he had a definite tendency toward -irrationality at times, an emotional instability. Once again right -away, I didn't know exactly what was the cause of this. A couple of -years later I had good reason to think about it some more, at which -time I noticed---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now when please? Before the assassination? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, while working on my book, "The Idle Warriors." - -Mr. JENNER. About when was this? - -Mr. THORNLEY. From the time he went to the Soviet Union until February -of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. You learned that he had gone to the Soviet Union? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I was stationed at his former outfit, Marine Air -Control Squadron 1, at the time he went to the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you then stationed? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is where I was at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. What country? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At Atsugi, Japan. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. And you learned about it through what source? - -Mr. THORNLEY. The Stars and Stripes, the military newspaper in the -Far East. It was on page 3, I believe, a little article about Lee -Harvey Oswald having appeared in the American Embassy in Moscow, -having plopped down his passport and requested Soviet citizenship. My -first reaction was, "Good Lord, what is going on here?" And afterward, -I, of course--it began to occur to me, his interest in communism, -and I started kicking myself, thinking, well, you know, just for so -misjudging a person. I just---- - -Mr. JENNER. Misjudging? What respect, please? - -Mr. THORNLEY. As far as his sincerity went. I did not ever think he was -so interested in communism to go to all the trouble to go to the Soviet -Union and certainly to jeopardize his citizenship, and so forth. This -was a great surprise to me. And right away I began to try to figure out -the mechanism of his thinking. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Keep going and tell me what your rationalization and -thinking was at that time. - -Mr. THORNLEY. And what caused him to do this. This gets us back to the -emotional instability and why did it occur. I do believe, to begin -with, Oswald, how long ago he had acquired the idea I don't know, but I -think in his mind it was almost a certainty that the world would end up -under a totalitarian government or under totalitarian governments. - -I think he accepted Orwell's premise in this that their was no fighting -it. That sooner or later you were going to have to love Big Brother and -I think this was the central, I think this was the central thing that -disturbed him and caused many of his other reactions. - -I think he wanted to be on the winning side for one thing, and, -therefore, the great interest in communism. I think he wanted--I think -he felt he was under a totalitarian system while in the Marine Corps, -and, therefore, the extreme reactions when someone would call him a -Communist. I think he had a persecution complex, and I think he strove -to maintain it. I could not go so far as to say why. Perhaps it was -necessary to his self-esteem in some way. This was and is the general -conclusion I now have as to his general motivations, his overall -motivations, insofar as he has tended to be emotionally unstable. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was emotionally unstable? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. That is an opinion you gathered from your association with -him in the Marines. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Primarily once again from that last experience, that -short exchange and just the complete unexpectedness of it. And then, of -course, after that was when I learned some of the other things, such as -the pouring the beer over the staff sergeant's head. These things, I -don't know when I learned them, but I do definitely know I learned them -afterwards because I---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean you learned of that incident after you left the -base at El Toro? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I believe I learned it over in Japan, as a matter of -fact, I believe soon after I got there somebody mentioned it in some -connection or another, and that was because I remember, yes, I am sure -it happened over there because I remember, then I said, "Oh, he was in -this unit? He was in here in MACS 1?" and somebody said, "Yes." And -that was another connection in my mind as far as Oswald was concerned. - -And then when the defection occurred, I therefore felt that I--I had -been thinking about writing a book on the Marine Corps. I had not -decided exactly what it was going to concern, what it was going to be -about as far as plot or theme went, the background would be the Marine -Corps in Japan, because that was the first big, at that time to me, -dramatic experience of my life suitable for a book, worth telling about. - -So, when the defection occurred on that same day, I thought, "Well, -this is it. I am in a perfect position to tell how this took place, why -this happened." I was not so interested in explaining Lee Harvey Oswald -to myself or anybody else, as I was in explaining that particular -phenomenon of disillusionment with the United States after serving in -the Marine Corps overseas in a peacetime capacity; thus the title: The -Idle Warriors. - -Since Oswald inspired the book, I did base a good deal of it as a -matter of convenience on his personality and on his ideas. - -Mr. JENNER. You said you had the impression as you sat there in Japan -that here was a man whom you felt wanted to be on the winning side. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to why? Did you, for -example, have the impression that he felt that his life had been such -that he had been deprived of the opportunity to be on a good side? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That he conceived to be the leading side? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. I had a definite impression of why. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think it is a mistake that many people make, and I -think it is a mistake he shared, and that is: he looked upon, not only -Marxists make this mistake, but he looked upon history as God. He -looked upon the eyes of future people as some kind of tribunal, and he -wanted to be on the winning side so that 10,000 years from now people -would look in the history books and say, "Well, this man was ahead of -his time. This man was"--he wanted to be looked back upon with honor -by future generations. It was, I think, a substitute, in his case, for -traditional religion. - -The eyes of the future became what to another man would be the eyes of -God, or perhaps to yet another man the eyes of his own conscience. - -Mr. JENNER. So it wasn't in the prosaic sense of merely wanting to be -on the "winning side." - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When things developed---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I don't think he expected things to develop within -his lifetime. I am sure that he didn't. He just wanted to be on the -winning side for all eternity. - -Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that that was in terms of -selflessness? That he thought also in terms that Lee Harvey Oswald -would be associated with this forward thinking? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right. He was concerned with his image in history and I -do think that is why he chose once again, once again why he chose the -particular method he chose and did it in the way he did. It got him -in the newspapers. It did broadcast his name out. I think he probably -expected the Russians to accept him on a much higher--in a much higher -capacity than they did. - -I think he expected them to, in his own dreams, to invite him to take a -position in their government, possibly as a technician, and I think he -then felt that he could go out into the world, into the Communist world -and distinguish himself and work his way up into the party, perhaps. He -was definitely---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did it have to be the Communist world or could it be any -world that he saw projected into the future? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. And as you put it this, in your opinion, had become a -religion with him. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Much more than he himself realized even though he called -it his religion. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression there was a personal -selflessness, that is a--I will put it in terms of disregard or rather -this way--that as far as his physical person was concerned, he wasn't -concerned about life in the sense that he wanted to continue to -maintain life in his body? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I think he wanted physical happiness. I think this -is why he didn't do something like just join the Communist Party. -I believe he felt that was dangerous. I think he wanted to live -comfortably. But I think if it came to a choice between the two, or -to put it this way, more relevant to events that developed later, I -think if it became to his mind impossible for him to have this degree -of physical comfort that he expected or sought, I think he would then -throw himself entirely on the other thing he also wanted, which was the -image in history. - -I don't think that--I think he wanted both if he could have them. If he -didn't, he wanted to die with the knowledge that, or with the idea that -he was somebody. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression at any time that he, in turn, -embraced a realization that he was lacking in ability to accomplish the -former, that is, personal comfort and status, that is that he felt that -there was a lack of ability, capacity, training, education on his part? - -Mr. THORNLEY. When I knew him, I don't think he had the vaguest thought -in that direction. I do definitely, of course, based solely upon what -I have read in the newspapers, think he came to that moment, after -returning to the United States from the Soviet Union. I think he was -getting panicky. - -Mr. JENNER. In our discussion you can see it is important to me -to obtain your thinking, uninfluenced to the extent you can do it -by subsequent events. Of course complete lack of influence is not -possible, but I am seeking your views as to your state of mind prior to -November 22. - -Mr. THORNLEY. All right. I would say that prior to November 22, I felt -that he had gradually become disillusioned with the United States for -many reasons, at the bottom was also his conviction, well, in fact, -his disillusionment with the United States in the Far East probably -contributed to some extent to his conviction that the Communists would -eventually prevail, the Communist culture would eventually prevail in -the world, and I then had the feeling that he certainly--I thought he -would probably stay in Russia, for example, forever. - -I didn't know what he was doing there. I realized from what I read at -that time that he was not--he did not have Russian citizenship. He was -staying there as an immigrant. I expected him probably to adjust to -Russian life and that would be the last that the Western World would -ever hear of Oswald. - -Everything Oswald has ever done has surprised me. - -Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. - -Mr. THORNLEY. When I knew him and since I knew him, when I knew him I -was surprised when he was offended at my statement about the coming -of the revolution that Saturday morning. I was surprised when I read -in the papers overseas that he had gone to the Soviet Union. I was -surprised when he came back. And I was entirely caught unaware when it -turned out that he was involved in the assassination, to such an extent -that for some time afterwards, I thought he was innocent. - -Mr. JENNER. Why were you surprised when he came back and tell us before -you do that where were you and how did you find out about it. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I was in New Orleans. My parents sent me an article from -the Los Angeles Times about it. The reason I was surprised at his -coming back was as I said before, I just expected that would be the -last I would hear of him. I fully expected him to adjust to Soviet -life. I thought what he--at that time I thought what he probably -lacked in the Marine Corps was any sympathy for the overall purpose of -the Marine Corps. Whereas he certainly had sympathy for the overall -purpose of the Soviet Government, so I don't think he would mind the -restrictions imposed on him, as he resented them in the Marine Corps. - -I did not expect him to become disillusioned, certainly, with -the Soviet Union. I am not, of course, sure that he did become -disillusioned with it. It just seemed unlike him to come back to this -country when he said he would never live in either as a capitalist or -as a worker. - -Mr. JENNER. When did he say that? - -Mr. THORNLEY. He said that at a press conference in Moscow according to -the papers. - -Mr. JENNER. This was something you read in the Stars and Stripes? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I don't know whether I read this in the Stars and -Stripes or whether I read this--I certainly read it when he came back -from Russia, I remember. It was in the article from the Times my -folks sent me. Said when he had left for the Soviet Union he had said -such-and-such, quote. - -Mr. JENNER. You said you did not expect him to become disillusioned -with Soviet Russia. Was it your impression at any time, take the -several stages, that he had a conviction with respect to any form of -political philosophy or government? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he did definitely always before and after have a -Marxist bias. From anything that has come to me, that has never--I have -never reason--never had reason to doubt that. - -Mr. JENNER. That, you think, was a conviction? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think that was an irrevocable conviction, you might say. - -Mr. JENNER. You do not think it was not merely a theoretical concept -which he used for argumentation? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Let me put it this way. I think you could sit down and -argue with him for a number of years in a great marathon argument -and have piles of facts and I don't think you could have changed his -mind on that unless you knew why he believed it in the first place. I -certainly don't. I don't think with any kind of formal argument you -could have shaken that conviction. And that is why I say irrevocable. -It was just--never getting back to looking at things from any other way -once he had become a Marxist, whenever that was. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he able to articulate distinctions between Marxism, -communism, capitalism, democracy? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I knew him and argued with him he didn't -bother to articulate distinctions between Marxism and communism. At a -latter time I understand he did. - -Mr. JENNER. He attempted to. - -Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I knew his communism was the modern, living -vicar of Marxism, period. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you in New Orleans when he was arrested for -distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee leaflets? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I arrived in New Orleans in the early part of September. -If I was in New Orleans---- - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This occurred in August of 1963. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Then I wasn't there; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear about it? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I didn't. I didn't hear about it until after the -assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any of those tapes? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I heard part of one of them after the assassination, once -again. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that part include his effort to distinguish between -Marxism and democracy in response to a question put to him by either -Mr. Stuckey or one of the other participants? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is exactly what he was talking about at the time. I -happened to be standing in the television station in New Orleans and he -was saying, and I just got a snatch of it, I was passing through the -room or something; and he was saying, "Well, there are many Marxist -countries in the world today." - -Mr. JENNER. This was by way of his answering a question as to what was -the distinction between Marxism and communism? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; he was saying there are many non-Communist Marxist -countries in the world today and he was definitely making a distinction -between Marxism and communism. - -Mr. JENNER. But all he did was to cite the countries. He didn't attempt -to make the distinction. - -Mr. THORNLEY. It was only a snatch of it. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a fair representation of his utterances during -those two radio broadcasts and one television broadcast. You mentioned -also that you had a feeling on his part that he was laboring under a -persecution complex? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was not necessarily based alone on the incident -you relate that occurred on that Saturday morning? Were there other -incidents? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there were many comments on his part about the walls -having ears, about--I think he felt the Marine Corps kept a pretty -close watch on him because of his "subversive" activities and, for that -reason in fact, I think he sought to keep himself convinced that he was -being watched and being pushed a little harder than anyone else. - -I don't think he was consciously, perhaps not consciously, aware of the -fact that he went out of his way to get into trouble. I think it was -kind of necessary to him to believe that he was being picked on. It -wasn't anything extreme. I wouldn't go so far as to call it, call him a -paranoid, but a definite tendency there was in that direction, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you put it in terms that he had the feeling that he -was being unjustifiably put upon? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, always; yes. He was, in fact, you almost got the -feeling that he was--this was happening because of his defense. I mean -he was always speaking of the injustices which had been perpetrated -against him. - -Mr. JENNER. Of his injustices as to him personally, different from the -treatment of others about him? - -Mr. THORNLEY. To him personally; yes. Well, and it was the fact that he -had lost his clearance, and had gone out of his way to get into some -degree of trouble that went on to support this. For example, we would -stand at muster in the morning, and Sergeant Spar would call the roll -and he would say "Oswald" and Oswald would step out of the ranks and he -would send him off to mow the lawn or something. - -Oswald did get special treatment. As I say, he had brought it on -himself but he made the most of it, too, as far as using it as a means -of getting or attempting to get sympathy. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, what was the sergeant's name? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Sergeant Spar. - -Mr. JENNER. Spar. In using his name, I don't wish to, I am not -suggesting anything personal as to Sergeant Spar, but I am going to -use him as a faceless Marine sergeant. - -Mr. THORNLEY. And a very good one. - -Mr. JENNER. You marines, at least some of you, I assume, as had GI's -and others, you buttered up sergeants, too, didn't you, in order to -avoid being assigned too often to disagreeable tasks? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; you didn't have to. So long as you kept in line -and obeyed orders, you didn't have to--you weren't assigned any -disagreeable task in the kind of outfit I was in because there weren't -that many. When there was a disagreeable task to be done, it was -assigned to somebody who had stepped out of line and there were always -enough people who had stepped out of line and it was no problem to find -them. In fact, the problem was to find enough disagreeable tasks to go -around. The only exception to this would be overseas; a typhoon would -hit sometimes and then everybody would have to go out and we would have -to all, much to our dismay, wade around at 2 o'clock in the morning and -tear down tents and so on and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a thing that was common to all of you. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not a disagreeable task in the sense we are talking -about. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right; and that was never necessary to have to butter -up that I can ever think of to a superior of any kind in order to get -exempted from anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, do you think Oswald was aware that all he had to be -was more tractable to the customs and practices of the Marine Corps -in which he was then living and he would not be assigned disagreeable -tasks more often than others? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, that is hard to say. I don't know whether he was -aware of that or not. I am not sure whether he permitted himself to be -aware of it. Maybe he was aware of it and maybe he couldn't help. He -had compulsions to do these things. Maybe he thought it was worth it -and maybe he didn't feel that he was being treated unjustly at all. -Maybe he just wanted everybody to think he felt he was being treated -unjustly, if you follow me. - -Mr. JENNER. I do. - -Mr. THORNLEY. It could have been any of these things. This--I think it -would take a good psychiatrist to find out which. - -Mr. JENNER. You also used the expression that he strove to maintain the -status or milieu in which he had brought himself. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I think this was possibly so. I think perhaps the -feeling of being persecuted was necessary to his self-esteem. This is, -I understand, a common thing, and it certainly fits in with everything -else I know about him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have that impression that you have just expressed -at the time that you were associated with him in the Marines? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At the time I was associated with him, I didn't have that -impression because I was too busy wondering just what it was. I used -to--I would see him doing something stupid, maybe a wisecrack to an -officer, for example, and I would say, "Well, doesn't the idiot know -that if he does that he is going to have to do this" and yet he would -resent his punishment. - -Mr. JENNER. What would he do afterward? - -Mr. THORNLEY. As if it had been thrust upon him for no reason -whatsoever, out of the blue. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was impulsive in that -respect, in the sense that sometimes he did things? - -Mr. THORNLEY. He was definitely impulsive. - -Mr. JENNER. That he had no control? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I don't know whether he had no control or whether -he would just do things without thinking. I think maybe he just let, -relaxed his controls once in a while, and why, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling he was impulsive? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. He acted on the spur of the moment? - -Mr. THORNLEY. He was spontaneous, very much so. This was--I had this -impression the whole time I knew him. - -Mr. JENNER. You did have the impression and I think you have mentioned -it several times, that he had an exaggerated, either mild or otherwise, -self-esteem. - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I didn't mention that that I recall. I did say that -I think maintaining the persecution complex was necessary for his -self-esteem and he was concerned very much with his image in history -but I don't think in the sense of being secure about his self-esteem; I -don't think he was either conceited, for example, egotistical, or just -plain confident. I don't think--I don't have any reason to believe that -he in his own eyes, had any reason to be proud of himself beyond the -average, at most. - -Mr. JENNER. I wasn't thinking of self-esteem in that sense and I didn't -gather from your remark that you were thinking of it in that sense -either, but rather in the sense of self-esteem in his own eyes, not in -the sense of accomplishment or egoism. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Now, I don't know. Self-esteem in one's own eyes, it -seems to me, would have to be justified by some means. Some people -justify it by means of their attraction to the opposite sex or by means -of their standing in some country club. I think Oswald justified it by -means of his recalcitrance, kind of a reverse self-esteem. - -By means of his unwillingness to do what he was ordered, for example. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that he sought the esteem of -others, not necessarily his officers, but the esteem of somebody or -some group or some persons about him and in his life---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think he wanted this very much but I don't think he -knew how to go about getting it. He wanted it, and yet he certainly -didn't--I think he would have felt he was cheating himself if he had -offered them anything in exchange for it. He wanted it but he wanted it -to come to him for no reason. He didn't want to have to earn it. I got -that impression. That is a very mild impression. - -Mr. JENNER. We are dealing in a very delicate field here and I am -pressing you very severely. - -Mr. THORNLEY. These are sometimes very gray, thin lines we have to -distinguish between. - -Mr. JENNER. We are probing for motivation. Did you ever discuss with -him the matter of education? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. His own; or education in the abstract; or the need for -education in order to attain accomplishments; or any regard to whether -his status in life, his personal comfort, his personal peace, could be -advanced by further education? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the feeling of any discomfort on his part -or inferiority because of his limited education? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. First of all, in the Marine Corps there is a -prevalence of this kind of feeling among many of the enlisted men, and -Oswald was exempt from it. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "exempt from it"? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he didn't, for example, have the usual bitterness -toward somebody who read, well, just merely because he did read. - -Mr. JENNER. He may have felt superior because he did read, did you have -that feeling? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a definite feeling? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I wouldn't say anything in my experience with him caused -me to particularly notice that he felt superior because he did read. -But except, yes, there is one time a friend of his, I don't know who -it was, I haven't been able to recall the name at present, one morning -looked over at our commanding officer who was walking by, Colonel -Poindexter, an air ace in Korea---- - -Mr. JENNER. A what? - -Mr. THORNLEY. An ace pilot in Korea, and made the comment, "There goes -a mental midgit" which drew glee from Oswald, as I remember. But aside -from that one particular incident--well, in any case, when he was -dealing with military superiors he always felt superior to them. You -got that impression. But dealing with the other marines who maybe did -have an education or did not have an education, I didn't get any, ever -get any impression one way or the other that he had a tendency to react -to this. - -Mr. JENNER. As between yourself and him, your association, what was -your feeling? Did he regard himself as compatible with you and you with -him? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; definitely. I didn't get any idea that he was--I -thought his education was about the same as my own which certainly -isn't spectacular by any means. I thought he might have had a year of -college. I knew he had--I figured he had graduated from high school. It -never occurred to me to think any more about it. I did, as I mentioned -before, notice once in a while that he had gaps in his knowledge, but -many people do, in fact all of us do, I am sure, in some fields. - -But in Oswald's case they perhaps had an unusual pattern to them or -something that made me notice them, perhaps. Perhaps he was better -read, for example, on Marxist economics than any other school of -economics, things like this. But that was the extent of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there in your kicking around with him in your -discussions--was there ever any discussion of your past, of his past, -his life? - -Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. This I am almost certain of. I had no -idea, for example, that he was from Texas or where he was from. At that -time I don't recall him having a Texas accent, either. I had no idea -that his father had died when he was young. I had no idea about his -family, anything along this line and I don't think I ever discussed my -past with him. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any mention ever made of his attendance at or even the -name of the Albert Schweitzer College? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussions about any plans of his or possibility of his -seeking further education of any kind or character when he was mustered -out of the Marines? - -Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. For one thing we were not close enough -friends to have any personal interests in each other. I looked upon -him as somebody to argue with, another atheist--therefore, without the -problem of religion between us--and to argue philosophy and politics -about, and I think he looked upon me in about the same light. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your dexterity with Marine weapons? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Mine? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I was a sharpshooter. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I believe--well, at that time I didn't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't know. I want your viewpoint as of that time. -While you were based at El Toro, did the unit engage with any -regularity in rifle practice? - -Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. At that time, the whole time I was -there, we did not engage in rifle practice. - -Mr. JENNER. As a matter of curiosity on my own part, why was that? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, in the Marine Corps you are required once a year -to go to the rifle range and qualify. I was not there an entire year. -Point No. 2, this was the Marine air wing which has much less of an -emphasis on, in general, on rifle practice because it is not going to -be utilized in battle, and a much stronger emphasis, in the case of the -outfit we were in, on our particular military occupational specialty. - -Mr. JENNER. Which was? - -Mr. THORNLEY. 6749 Aviation Electronic Operator. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this true when you reached Japan? - -Mr. THORNLEY. More so. When I reached Japan, however, we did go to the -rifle range one time shortly after I got there, and qualify. I recall -at that time that in Japan we weren't even having rifle inspections. -There you could put your rifle away in your locker and forget about it, -and take it out every couple of months and make sure it hadn't corroded -away, and put it back again. - -Mr. JENNER. But you didn't even have rifle inspection? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Once in a while we would have one, but not with any -frequency whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned so that you could clean your rifle? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; usually you were caught unawares, which was why you -kept it clean in the locker. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. What are the grades of marksmanship? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. - -Mr. JENNER. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. Therefore, I gather -from that that marksman was the basic grade. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. A grade that every marine was expected to, and had to, -attain that grade? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not had to attain, some didn't, and there was no -particular penalty involved, except maybe something a little -extracurricular when you were in boot camp. Otherwise, you didn't -wear a marksman's medal is all. You didn't have any qualification in -the infantry; of course, it would be looked down upon in the case of -promotion or something like that. In the air wing it had much slighter -significance than that. Maybe if you were being considered for a -meritorious promotion and you hadn't qualified you wouldn't get it, but -day to day it had no significance. - -Mr. JENNER. Were the standards applied in the air wing with respect -to qualifications for these three classes as severe or as high as the -standards applied, let us say, in the Marine infantry? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Exactly the same; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Exactly the same. Would you please state for me your -concept of the degree of marksmanship for (a) marksman, (b) -sharpshooter, (c) expert? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, a marksman is an average shooter. A man, I think, -could pick up a rifle and with a little commonsense and a minimum -knowledge of the basics of marksmanship qualify as a marksman. When a -man doesn't qualify as a marksman it is usually either because he is -nervous on the day of qualification or he is gun shy or some outside -influence confuses him; maybe he gets his windage off, something like -this. - -Sharpshooter is just a little above average. It ranges over about--a -pretty wide field. But it is a man who--a sharpshooter would be a man, -the average man, with a good, maybe a week of training on how to use a -rifle, and some practice. - -Whereas an expert is the kind of man I would hate to have on the other -side in a war. He is accurate with his rifle up to and including 500 -yards in a number of different positions. Hits the bull's-eye or close -to the bull's-eye an overwhelming percentage of the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the category in which we would place that to which -we refer generally as the sniper? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Well, any man might be assigned as a sniper, I -imagine. But an expert rifleman would perform much better. - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe be a superior sniper. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. And to attain the position of expert marksman must there be -considerable practice and use of the weapon or is it more of natural -ability? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Now, you enter in once again to natural ability, just as -not qualifying might be caused by a lack of natural ability of some -kind. An expert rifleman probably would have a much calmer nervous -system or, you might say, a much greater degree of control. - -I would imagine training can make up for this. I know a couple of times -I just missed expert by a few points. It seemed that I couldn't make -expert. It seemed to me there was just something I didn't have in order -to make expert. It was very frustrating. - -Mr. JENNER. You tried? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; it takes a great degree of control, primarily. Of -course, the other things like good eyesight and so on and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his degree of proficiency -in the use of the rifle? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not to the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impressions that you gathered in that -respect while you were with him at El Toro? - -Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. Had somebody asked me to guess about -Oswald, I would have said, well, he probably didn't qualify, just -because that was the type of guy he was, but that is all. - -Mr. JENNER. You would never have expected him to have been a -sharpshooter, for example? - -Mr. THORNLEY. It wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he was and it -wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he wasn't. This is something very -difficult: to look at a man and tell, at least it is very difficult for -me. I have seen some drill instructors who could do it. But to tell -whether he is going to be an expert or a sharpshooter, marksman, I am -not qualified. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were stationed with him at El Toro, did you ever -go off base with him? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion of dates? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. His attitude toward women? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Sex? - -Mr. THORNLEY. None whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt around the camp in that regard -with respect to him? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not to the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Sex habits, propensities? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; you stand a risk in the Marine Corps, if you are -at all quiet and tend to be introverted, of being suspected of being -homosexual, but to the best of my knowledge there were never any -comments made of this nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some other readings of his in addition to -"1984"? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I do recall having mentioned Dostoievsky to him and I -know he had read something and I think it was "Crime and Punishment" -but I am not sure. It was something I had not read by Dostoievsky when -I had read about, I guess at that time, about three or four books. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a great book. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Someday I am going to get around to it. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you not read it yet? It is a really great book. - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; and I don't recall him mentioning any other books -offhand. I don't--I can't think of a thing besides "1984" and some book -by Dostoievsky. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were based at El Toro did he engage, did you -notice, in any officer baiting on his part with respect, in particular, -to such matters as foreign affairs? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; not on foreign affairs, no, but the same officer, -Lieutenant Donovan, spoke of in a foreign affairs lecture in the -newspapers, I do remember him baiting him on a couple of occasions. - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald attempting to bait Lieutenant Donovan? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I don't remember what it was. I know, I believe -Lieutenant Donovan was also a lieutenant which I had had a couple of -run-ins with if I remember correctly. - -If not, it was Lieutenant Delprado. It was one of the two of them. Mine -were completely accidental and I went to great length to keep away from -one of them because it seemed like any time I was around him I happened -to do something to irritate him. But Oswald, I don't recall exactly -what he said, but he a couple or three times went out of his way to -say something to one of these lieutenants that would cause them to be -irritated and in this you can't really say that he was exceptional. It -happened many times. In Oswald's case though, it was exceptionally---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean it happened many times with respect to other -noncoms in the Marines with respect to these officers? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right; but in Oswald's case it seemed a little more -deliberate. Some guys would get mad and they would say something, -or sometimes they would do something by accident, and they would get -themselves involved and then they would decide, "Well, what the hell," -and push it all away. Oswald it seemed didn't have to have any reason. -He just told an officer to get lost. - -Mr. JENNER. He baited an officer for the pleasure of it? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; I might mention that this was one means by which he -won the admiration of others in the outfit in that the junior officers -especially are usually disliked, or were in that outfit, and this made -him on such occasions as he engaged with an officer in some kind of -officer baiting, this won the respect, for at least a few minutes, of -the men--who would kind of laugh about it, and chuckle over it and tell -others about it. Perhaps this is why he did it. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned some slovenliness on his part; what about his -quarters, his barracks; did you have occasion to observe them? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I don't think I was ever in his barracks. I do recall -having been told that he had Russian books and that is all I--that is -the only connection I can make now in my mind with his quarters. I -don't think I ever saw them. - -Mr. JENNER. You already have given us something of his view of the -U.S. Marine Corps. Would you give us a summary of that? Give us your -impression of his views with respect to the U.S. Marine Corps. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, definitely the Marine Corps was not what he had -expected it to be when he joined. Also he felt that the officers and -the staff NCO's at the Marine Corps were incompetent to give him orders. - -Mr. JENNER. Incompetent in what sense, they were below him -intellectually? - -Mr. THORNLEY. They were below him intellectually--and for various other -reasons in each case, too. Maybe this officer was ignorant, as was -brought out about foreign affairs, in Oswald's mind, knew less than -Oswald did about it. I don't hold with the stand that Oswald would -study up on foreign affairs simply in order to bait the officer. I -think it just happened to be that Oswald would see that the officer -was basing his foreign affairs maybe on Time magazine when Oswald had -done a little more reading and I think he resented this Time magazine -approach to foreign affairs. - -Mr. JENNER. How did these discussions arise, Mr. Thornley, the -discussion of foreign affairs by officers? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, the officers, every so many weeks--this is -mentioned somewhere in this pile of papers--every so many weeks a -lieutenant is appointed to give a foreign affairs lecture or a current -affairs lecture, pardon me, to the troops, at which time he explains -the world situation in a half hour. I remember having one second -lieutenant telling us about Dalai Lama or it was a first lieutenant -and I forget what he told us, but it was something completely absurd. -I think at that time the Dalai Lama had just disappeared or something, -and one would get the impression, I think, that he thought the Dalai -Lama was a leader in Pakistan or something. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the impression the lieutenant tried to convey? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, I think that was the impression the lieutenant had -had when he had been assigned to give this lecture. The last minute, -he got down and started going through the news magazines to get his -information, got it somewhat inaccurately, and didn't particularly care -whether it was accurate or not anyway. Stood up in front of the troops -and reeled off the lecture, and, of course, most of the enlisted men -didn't know enough to criticize him either because they weren't that -interested, and that was it--with a couple of people laughing up their -sleeves, and this happened later, this didn't happen at the time I knew -Oswald. - -However, in such a situation Oswald would have been careful I am sure -to raise his hand and correct the lieutenant. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to get to that. During the course of these -lectures did the troops as you called them engage in discussion with -the instructor? - -Mr. THORNLEY. They were permitted to ask questions, to raise their -hands to ask questions. And Oswald would have probably asked a question -which would have made light of the lieutenant's ignorance. - -Mr. JENNER. Put the lieutenant at a disadvantage? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present at any times when you were at El Toro -when the lectures occurred when, at that time Oswald raised his hand -and engaged in dissertation? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I might have been but I don't recall it if I was. I -recall being present at several lectures at El Toro, and it just might -have happened. It was the kind of thing Oswald would do and it wouldn't -even have phased me. I probably wouldn't even have bothered to remember -if it had happened. It would have been just part of the daily routine -there so I would have---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever engage in that sort of thing? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I never had guts enough to stand up and tell an -officer he didn't know what he was talking about. Behind his back I -might tell somebody that such-and-such officer didn't know what he was -talking about, but I was never quite that brash--in that particular -respect, anyway. - -Mr. JENNER. What were your impressions on Oswald being interested in -music? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not being interested in music myself particularly---- - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you had none; that is, any impressions as to his -interests? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No, therefore, I had none; correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever play chess with him? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him playing chess with anyone else? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Just now you mentioned the word "chess" as a definite -association; I think he did play chess. I can't place the person. -This--there were some other people in the outfit who played chess. -There is one name I have been trying to remember for a long time, and I -think it starts with "Win" something. "Winter" something. I'm probably -way off base there. But a tall blond corporal, I believe, played chess -and a couple of other men in the outfit played chess. At that time, I -guess at that, I knew how to play chess. I have never been particularly -interested, though, in the game so I don't--I am pretty sure I didn't -play chess with him. - -In fact, come to think of it I had just been cured of playing chess 3 -months before that; somebody beat me in about six moves and I stopped -playing for about a year. It wasn't me. - -Mr. JENNER. While at El Toro did Oswald become engaged in any physical -altercations with anybody? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; definitely not to my knowledge. Never got into any -fights or even any hot personal argument over anything, that I know of. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, if you had one then, as to his -disposition in that regard? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I had the impression that he avoided violence. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were at El Toro do you recall whether Oswald ever -went off the base on liberty? - -Mr. THORNLEY. As far as I know he didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any discussions on the base as to what, if -anything, Oswald did? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not in my presence. - -Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, Oswald had done off the base on liberty? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not in my presence. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of Cuba and Castro and that -problem? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right; tell us all about that. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, at that time I and Oswald were both, and a couple -of other men in the outfit, were quite sure that Castro was a great -hero. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, he was liberating Cuba from Batista and, of course, -we had heard all about Batista and what an evil man he was, which I am -sure was true, and most of us had read some of the things written by -Castro, some of Castro's promises--such as he would take no part in the -government after the revolution, such things--so we had the definite -impression--I remember there was one Puerto Rican boy, myself, Oswald, -a couple of others who had quite an admiration for Castro, and thought -the pro-Communist statements he was or might be making at the time, -were made simply to guarantee a little more independence for his island -because it was located so close to the United States. - -In other words, I felt at the time he was playing both ends against the -middle in order to go his own way, something like Charles de Gaulle -is doing right now by recognizing Red China. I felt it was purely -statesmanship, statecraft, power politics. I didn't feel that Castro -was a dedicated Communist. Whether Oswald did or not I don't know. He -admired Castro because of the social reforms Castro was introducing. So -did I at that time. - -Delgado, the Puerto Rican boy, as I recall it, was becoming worried -at that time because he was beginning to think maybe Castro was -communistic. I didn't think so. Oswald, as far as I know, didn't have -anything to say on that matter. And that is about all I can tell you. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you say that you admired Castro and you knew Oswald -admired Castro. Tell us on what you base that comment. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, once again as I remember, there was one of these -afternoon discussions once again, and somebody was saying something, -worried about Castro, it might have been Delgado, it might have been -somebody else, I don't think it was Delgado that day because I think -he was defending Castro, somebody said something against Castro, and -Oswald said that he didn't think Castro was so bad. - -He thought Castro was good for Cuba, and they said why, and I took up -the argument, which was the argument I just gave you, the naive idea -I had at the time that he was playing for independence, and Oswald -remained silent, shaking his head affirmatively a couple of times, and -that was it. - -Mr. JENNER. Shaking his head affirmatively with respect to the comments -you were making? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; to my argument, to my justification of Castro. - -Mr. JENNER. But you recall no provocative remarks that he made in that -connection? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald have a nickname? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not that I know of except Oz sometimes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear him referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit"? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, yes; I didn't realize that anybody else referred to -him as such but I always thought of him as such. He reminded me very -much of a cartoon character at that time. It was kind of pathetic. -There was something about this little smile of his, and his expression -on his face and the shape of his head, just the general, his general -appearance established a definite association in my mind with some -Warner Bros. cartoon character, I believe Warner Bros. And I, very -recently, in a discussion with someone, describing Oswald mentioned -that he reminded you of--I said: "I think there is a character called -Oswald Rabbit who appears in movie cartoons." And they shook their head. - -Now, I know where I got that particular example so I probably heard him -referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit," though I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he occasionally have a nickname or a reference made to -him attendant upon his interest in the study of the Russian language or -his interest in communism or in Russia or Soviet---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. Only he was sometimes called the Communist and he would, -sometimes I know--as far as his study of the Russian language went he -made no attempt to hide this. - -In fact, he made--would make attempts to show it off by speaking a -little Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. He was proud of that, was he? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there was someone else in the outfit who spoke -Russian, don't ask me who, they used to exchange a few comments in the -morning at muster and say hello to each other or something, and he also -would make jokes in Russian, not in Russian, but in English, in a thick -Russian accent many times; this was very typical of him. - -Mr. JENNER. He resorted to that area and use of satire? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; until I had made the comment that implied he was a -Communist, I had no idea---- - -Mr. JENNER. That he was sensitive? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That he was sensitive about it because he didn't seem to -be. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any visitors? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at anytime about the possibility -of his going to Russia? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a complete surprise to you when you saw it in -Stars and Stripes? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Somebody would say to him, "Why don't you go and live in -Russia," in the middle of an argument. - -Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean that in that sense but did he volunteer a -statement on his part about his going to Russia? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Never anything; no. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it it was your opinion he was not a Communist at the -time he was assigned to El Toro? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That was my opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you have never seen or talked with Oswald -subsequent to the time he left or you left for Japan, from El Toro? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, my statement is correct. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It follows, I take it, that you were never aware that he -was in New Orleans when you were there? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of his comings and goings other than the -newspaper report that your folks sent you? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I was aware that he had come back from the Soviet Union -and gone to Dallas, and I know I at that time did think about going -to see him in Dallas for the book, to find out just why he did go to -Russia, to check it with my own theory. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to get to that in due course. - -Mr. THORNLEY. But aside from knowing that he came back and went to live -in Dallas with a Russian wife and a child I had no idea of his comings -or goings. - -Mr. JENNER. At the time you had some notion of going to Dallas to see -him or Fort Worth, as the case might be, it was with respect to the -book you have talked about you were then in the process of writing or -fulminating about? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; it was practically--well, it was finished by that -time but I was thinking about, I was definitely planning to rewrite it. -I didn't know how soon, and I thought before I did rewrite it I would -go talk to him and see what he could tell me about. There were a lot of -gaps in the book, and in the book I was not able to explain how he got -from the United States to Russia and things like that. A lot of things -I wanted to check out and I thought if I could get him to cooperate -with me, perhaps not even in telling him I was writing the book, I -could get the information I wanted. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was the state of mind you had after you had heard -that he returned to the United States? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Which was June of 1962, when he returned? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right, and I had finished the book in February. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mr. THORNLEY. 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. 1962. You were in Mexico and Mexico City in 1963? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Cover that for us. What was the motivation, the length of -the trip? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I will have to begin at the beginning on that. On April -17, my parents sent me a gift of $100 on the condition that I spend it -for a bus ticket to visit them that summer. Which I did, and I left -around--well, I arrived in California on May 5. I remember going along -the border and seeing fireworks on the other side of the border. - -Mr. JENNER. What border? - -Mr. THORNLEY. From Yuma to San Diego. - -Mr. JENNER. Mexican border? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is Cinco De Mayo. I arrived in California on May -5 and I stayed there until late August. Now, I think in one of these -reports that I gave to the FBI the information might be different. -Since then I have checked with notebooks that I kept of my activity, -and I was on my way back to New Orleans in late August. I went by way -of Mexico City because I have taken 5 years of Spanish in school and I -never had the opportunity to live in an environment where I would have -to use it, depend on it solely, and I wanted to see how I would do. I -have always wanted to visit Mexico, to see Mexico City. I checked into -the prices. I had found out I had enough money that I would be able to -go down to Mexico City and stay a short while. - -So I went down there for about a week, actually it was 6 days I spent -within Mexico, from Tijuana to Mexico City, on a Mexican bus, and -then when my money began to run out from Mexico City to Matamoros or -Brownsville, Tex., on a Mexican bus. - -At this time, on my way up on a bus to Matamoros, it was September 2, -because I had that in my notes, I have some notes about the bus ride -and the date September 2. - -And I went from Brownsville to New Orleans by way of either Greyhound -or Continental. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you arrive in New Orleans? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I went directly to New Orleans, so I imagine I arrived in -New Orleans on September 3, possibly September 4. - -Mr. JENNER. So that between approximately May 1, 1963, and September 4 -and 5---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. Say May 3 to September 4. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not in New Orleans? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You were returning to your home in California? You stayed -there for approximately a month or so? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Longer than that. - -Mr. JENNER. Longer than that. You then went to Mexico, Mexico City, and -you then returned directly to New Orleans? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During none of that period of time did you have any contact -with or hear anything about Oswald? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely not. - -Mr. JENNER. You at one time at least were acquainted with a lady by the -name of Sylvia Bortin? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Sylvia Bortin? - -Mr. JENNER. B-o-r-t-i-n. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; this young lady, by the way---- - -Mr. JENNER. Where did she reside? - -Mr. THORNLEY. In Whittier, Calif., or at least last summer she did, -I don't know where she resides now. This young lady, by the way, -was mentioned in--her mention in this whole matter came out of a -misunderstanding on my part of a question asked by the FBI agents. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you explain that, please? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I don't recall what the question was--oh, yes, he had -asked me something about, I believe it was the First Unitarian Church -in Los Angeles. I had mentioned earlier at the time I was talking -to Oswald, and knew Oswald, I had been going to the First Unitarian -Church in Los Angeles. This is a group of quite far to the left people -politically for the most part, and mentioned in order to explain my -political relationship with Oswald, at that moment, and he began to ask -me questions about the First Unitarian Church and I answered, and then -he realized or understood or asked what Oswald's connection with the -First Unitarian Church was and I explained to him that there was none. -Miss Bortin never knew Oswald and vice versa, and these people were two -different parts of my life. There was this civilian compartment and the -military compartment, and I never intermingled them. - -Mr. JENNER. This young lady married and her husband is now in Havana, -Cuba? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is what she told me last summer; yes. He was going -to school in Cuba. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it this had nothing to do with yourself and Oswald's -views with respect to Castro that you told us about. - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; this happened, I think, later, in fact I am sure it -happened later. At that time Miss Bortin, she was then unmarried, did -not know Robert Uname, I believe. I met him, I believe, September a -year later. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you finished that? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that Oswald had no close personal friends at -least that you observed? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct. And the name of his closest friends I do -not know. I do remember he had a close acquaintance that he seemed to -get along with pretty well. - -Mr. JENNER. In the unit? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; but I don't recall this man's name. If it was -mentioned to me, I probably could, but---- - -Mr. JENNER. You were groping for it when you were interviewed. You -suggested it might be Charles---- - -Mr. THORNLEY. I mentioned a Charles. - -Mr. JENNER. Weis. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Weir, but that was not the man. This was a friend of a -friend of the friend or a man who could give them that information -perhaps that I couldn't. - -At this time perhaps, also, I was thinking of a possibility it might -have been Weir and since then I have remembered definitely who Weir was. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was he? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I don't remember whether his first name was Charles but I -remember who he was. - -Mr. JENNER. He was a noncom? - -Mr. THORNLEY. There was a man named Cooley. There was somebody else, -and these are my associations, but who it was who used to talk Russian -in the ranks with Oswald in the morning I don't know, but that is who -it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this particular man you now mentioned the man who -occasionally talked Russian with Oswald in the ranks, is he the man who -you had in mind? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As having been a friend of Oswald's? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; in that in the same respect that I was a friend of -Oswald's. Once, again, the exact terminology I would use would be close -acquaintance. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I would say from your description of the relationship -with Oswald that it was more an acquaintanceship than a friendship. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I think it was probably the same with this person from -what I recall, to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, when you say friend, he wasn't a buddy of -Oswald? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; Oswald was not the type of person who had, as it -has been emphasized on all parts, I think, and it confirms my own -impression, was not the type of person who made close friends or who -stuck with close friends. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw no instance in which Oswald evidenced affection for -anybody, I mean in the nice sense of the word? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; none whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Or anybody evidenced any affection in the nice sense of the -word for him? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it your trip to Mexico City was purely one of -general interest as you have described and had nothing to do with any -interest on your part in going to Cuba or attempting to go to Cuba? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Believe me, no. I have no desire to go to Cuba unless I -am going to take a rifle and be on an invasion force or something. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear of anybody in the Marine Corps, whose last -name was Hidell? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At the time this name was mentioned to me that was--that -person, whoever it was that Oswald used to speak to in the ranks in the -morning came to my mind. But I can't say that that was the name, and -I am--of course, now, I am very leery that that--very uncertain as to -ever having heard the name Hidell, and I doubt it very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Shortly after the unfortunate occurrence of November 22, -1963, you were interviewed by Secret Service agents, were you not? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Now, this is what I had mentioned earlier. This was -the Monday interview, of November 25, actually it was midnight Sunday -night as I recall. It seemed to me a couple of days later before I -spoke to the FBI. I believe there was a Mr. Rice--was one of the men. - -Mr. JENNER. This was the evening of the 23d of November? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Was it the 23d? - -Mr. JENNER. It probably ran over. - -Mr. THORNLEY. It must have been Saturday evening then. I had thought it -was Sunday evening. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event you were then interviewed by some newspaper -reporters? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; that was quite some time afterward. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it was before November 27, 1963, was it not? - -Mr. THORNLEY. It was after the 25th, I think. It was after I had -finished talking to the FBI, as I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. I will mark as Thornley's Exhibit No. 1 what purports to be -a Xerox reprint of a newspaper article. - -(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 1 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with that? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What newspaper was this from? - -Mr. THORNLEY. The States-Item of New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. And that article was a result of the newspaperman's -interview with you? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see it upon its publication? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with it? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it substantially accurately reflect at least portions -of, in reasonable context, the interview you had with the newspaper -reporter? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; to a surprising degree for a newspaper, on the basis -of my past experience in dealings with them. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in that article that you regard as -reasonably seriously erroneous? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not when I read it the last time. - -Mr. JENNER. Insofar as it attributes anything to you? - -Mr. THORNLEY. May I reread it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I would say this is accurate in everything it attributes -to me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer Thornley Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. - -Now, it appears from that article and from the testimony you have -given this morning that you were stimulated, or, as you have indicated -you prepared at least a first draft of a book or pamphlet or article -respecting your experiences in the Marine Corps, and one of the central -characters of which, mythical or otherwise, was a friend, Oswald. - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And when I spoke to you by telephone the other day I -inquired of you as to whether that was still in existence and you -responded that it was. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were kind enough to say you would bring it with you. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you done so? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. May I see it, please? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; here is the draft completed in February of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am interested in seeing that in its condition as of -that time. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Right. That is it. There is only one addition and there -is some blank paper on top. There is one addition, and that is the -short preface written yesterday to give some idea of how much was fact -and how much was fiction. - -Mr. JENNER. All right--the page numbered 2? - -Mr. THORNLEY. There was a table of contents once and it took two pages. - -Mr. JENNER. Which I might identify in addition thereto as having the -word "Preface," at its top and your name and the date May 17, 1964, -Arlington, Va., at the bottom. That is what you prepared yesterday, is -that correct? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All of the balance, therefore, commencing with the pages -numbered 3 and running through, I assume, consecutively? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. To page 250 is the article as it was when you completed it -in February 1962? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Precisely. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like the opportunity of reading through this and, -of course, 200-odd pages, we don't have the time to do it as of the -moment, and the Commission would like to have it among its records. -May I have the material and I will take it in the back room. We have -a Xerox, and have it duplicated? This, I appreciate, is your personal -property and it is of value. It is not something that the Commission -will place in the hands of others who may make commercial use of it. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I am quite sure that it will be perfectly safe. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. It is in the same condition now, that is, pages -3 through 250, as those pages were when you completed this manuscript -in February 1962? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there might have been a couple of spelling errors -corrected since then or typographical errors but that is all. - -Mr. JENNER. And that article of which we now speak and which for -purposes of identification I will mark as Thornley Exhibit No. 2, and I -offer Thornley Exhibit No. 2 in evidence. - -(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 2 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Subsequently thereto, I understand from my conversation -with you, you prepared a revision of that paper. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I have been working on a revision. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were kind enough to say you would bring that along -with you as well. Have you done so? - -Mr. THORNLEY. I have been between this draft---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you said "this draft" you are referring to Thornley -Exhibit No. 2? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Exhibit No. 2, and the draft I am now giving you--several -illegible drafts were made. This represents not the latest draft, but -the latest typewritten draft. It represents a fragment of it. - -The first third, almost the first third, minus a couple of pages of a -novelette based upon this Exhibit No. 2. - -Mr. JENNER. For purposes of identification the witness has now handed -me a set of letter-sized pages numbered 1 through 37, consecutively. - -Are they consecutive? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it, as against the length of the other paper, -that these pages 1 through 37, represent an incomplete novel. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is it covers only a portion of the areas and times -covered by Thornley Exhibit No. 2. - -Mr. THORNLEY. This ones takes a completely different approach in that -this did not take a chronological approach to the development of the -character based on Oswald, but takes a flashback approach. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Centering around an investigation of that character after -his defection to the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. For further identification of the document which I will -mark Thornley Exhibit No. 3, page 1 is entitled "Chapter 1, Gung Ho." - -Page 4 is entitled "Chapter 2, Fallen Comrade." - -Page 7, in the center, is entitled "Chapter 3, Hush Hush." - -Page 11 is entitled "Chapter 4, Blue Marines." - -Page 14, in the upper portion, is entitled "Chapter 5, Peace Gospel." - -Page 21 is entitled, at the head, "Chapter 7, The Killer." - -Page 24, near the center, is entitled "Chapter 8, Captain Kidd." - -Page 27, at the bottom, "Chapter 9, Mutiny." - -Page 31, "Chapter 10, John Henry." - -Page 34, "Chapter 11, The Storms." - -And page 37, "Chapter 12, The Chicken." - -(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 3 for -identification.) - -Mr. THORNLEY. Now, this Exhibit No. 3 is a much greater fictionalized -approach toward, well, as far as reference goes to Oswald, the -character upon--the character which is based upon Oswald in Exhibit No. -2, Johnny Shellburn, Exhibit No. 3 is much farther from life. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Johnny Shellburn assimilated to Oswald? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; much more so in Exhibit No. 2, though, than in this -one. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Exhibit No. 3. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; since I wrote Exhibit No. 2, I have learned to write -fiction rather than a thinly disguised biography. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, Exhibit No. 2 was primarily a biography? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Not in the strict sense that it portrayed a man's life in -detail, but in the sense that any reference, most of the references, as -is explained in this preface toward the end of the book---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you say this preface, you mean the preface to Exhibit -No. 2? - -Mr. THORNLEY. That is, Johnny Shellburn toward the end of the book, -well, from before the middle of the book on, extends more and more to -reflect Oswald's character, and I definitely was thinking about Lee -Harvey Oswald when I wrote this book, Exhibit No. 2, whereas---- - -Mr. JENNER. In your discussion refer to them by exhibit number. - -Mr. THORNLEY. I will keep my hands below the table. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't have to do that. Just use the exhibit numbers. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Whereas in Exhibit No. 3, I have universalized it -more, tried to get away from giving any impression that I am making -a chronology of the life and times of Lee Harvey Oswald, which is -something I thought would be relevant as far as the Commission would be -concerned in reading the material. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you mark Exhibit No. 3 accordingly, Mr. Reporter? - -I offer in evidence Thornley Exhibit No. 3. I take it, Mr. Thornley, -that you commenced the preparation of Exhibit No. 3 subsequently to the -assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that Exhibit No. 3 reflects a course of events and -their imprint upon you that occurred on and after November 22, 1963. - -Mr. THORNLEY. No, no; Exhibit No. 3 reflects the same course of events -reflected in Exhibit No. 2. As far as the telling of the story goes and -the characters therein it takes place back in 1959. It makes a definite -attempt, however, to get away from Oswald as a specific character and -to discuss the problem of disillusionment in the peacetime military or -disillusionment with values on a much more universalized range than -Exhibit No. 2. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. May I make a copy of Exhibit No. 3? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Under the same circumstances and upon the same conditions -as you granted your consent to make a copy of Exhibit No. 2? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; Exhibit No. 3 also does include some things -on--that I have acquired through the news on Oswald since the -assassination because Oswald tends to reflect the type of person I was -talking about. So to put it, to make it as clear as possible, right now -I realize I am saying Exhibit No. 3 is more like Oswald and less like -Oswald, to put it as clearly as possible. - -Mr. JENNER. You are going in two directions at once. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Exhibit No. 2 is more like the Oswald I knew in MACS 9, -the Oswald of my experience, whereas Exhibit No. 3 is a universalized -Oswaldian-type character based upon not only my own experience but -the news that has come to me about Oswald, about other people like -Oswald, other defectors, other assassins, and so on and so forth, since -November 22. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mr. Thornley, tell me something about Kerry -Thornley. You obviously, to me, are not a doorman. - -Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, yes; I am a doorman. - -Mr. JENNER. You are at the moment performing that service. But that -isn't your objective in life. - -Mr. THORNLEY. My objective is to write books, novels primarily, as -many as I can in the years that are given to me, and possibly upon -publication of one of them to go back to school to further my ability -to write. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you taking any training in that respect or have you in -recent years? - -Mr. THORNLEY. Well, not formally. I have devoted myself to a lot of -exercises in writing, and I have availed myself of the help of any -experts I could grab onto, including successful novelists and former -newspaper reporters and so on and so forth, to help me solve problems -in my writing and improve it, but there is really, to my mind, my -outlook on writing a novel; for example, there is not much you can -learn from a formal course in writing. I think you can learn much more -from, say, the study of linguistics or semantics; if you are going to -learn anything from a university, for example, on writing, and this I -intend to do in due time. - -Mr. JENNER. We occasionally have been off the record, not often, and -I have talked with you on the telephone. Is there anything that was -said between us in the course of our telephone conversations or in -any off-the-record discussions that you think is pertinent to the -Commission's assignment of investigating the assassination of President -Kennedy that I have failed to bring onto the record? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir; I think we have very thoroughly covered it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to -add that you think might be pertinent to our inquiry and of help to the -Commission? - -Mr. THORNLEY. No; there is certainly nothing else I can think of. - -Mr. JENNER. Your deposition will be written up rather promptly. We -probably will have it tomorrow, and would you be good enough to call -me, say--when do you go on duty? - -Mr. THORNLEY. At 5 o'clock. - -Mr. JENNER. Call me in the forenoon--I mean right after lunch--and if -it is convenient will you come in and read over your deposition and -sign it? - -Mr. THORNLEY. All right. May I just, to make absolutely sure, may I -take down your phone number once more? - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR. - -The following affidavit was executed by George B. Church, Jr. on June -27, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF FLORIDA, - _County of Hillsborough, ss_: - -I, George B. Church, Jr., 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida, being -duly sworn say: - -1. I am a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army and -am now a Junior High School teacher in Tampa. I am attending the -University of Florida this summer. - -2. My wife and I travelled to Europe on the S.S. Marion Lykes which -departed New Orleans, Louisiana for LeHavre, France, on or about -September 20, 1959. This vessel was a freighter with accommodations for -12 passengers assigned two to a room. On this particular trip, there -were but four passengers aboard. One of them was Lee Harvey Oswald, who -shared a state room with an individual named Billy Joe Lord. The trip -from New Orleans, Louisiana, terminated at LeHavre, France. The entire -trip was approximately 16 days. - -3. Before this trip, I had never before seen nor heard of Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -4. All of the passengers ate at one table; however, Lee Harvey Oswald -missed quite a few meals because he was seasick much of the time. -Furthermore, there was no fixed schedule for meals. When we did have -meals with Oswald, he sat cater-cornered from me. However, Oswald was -rather withdrawn, and thus I did not converse with him a great deal. -Oswald did state during our discussion of our destinations, that he was -going to attend a university in Switzerland. Oswald did not give the -name of the university and did not indicate that he had a clear cut -schedule as to his course of study. - -5. I recall having discussed with Oswald the Depression of the 1930's. -Oswald appeared quite bitter as to the hard time his mother had -suffered during this period. I tried to point out to Oswald that I -had lived through and survived the Depression and that millions of -people in the United States also had suffered during those years. This, -however, made no impression on Oswald. - -6. Oswald spent much of the time by himself. He did not participate in -any of the social activities, nor in any conversation. He did mention -his service in the Marine Corps, and he stated that he did not like -the military service. Generally Oswald was not friendly, and he did -not make much of an impression on me since I was not particularly -interested in him. - -7. The ship had a receiver in the ward room which was off and on during -the voyage. I did listen to it occasionally, and I did understand -German. I do not know if Oswald listened to the receiver or not, and I -have no idea as to his knowledge of any foreign language. - -8. Oswald did not indicate that he was going to go to Russia. - -9. After the trip I never saw nor heard from Lee Harvey Oswald again. - -Signed this 27th day of June 1964. - - (S) George B. Church, Jr., - GEORGE B. CHURCH, Jr. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR. - -The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., on -June 27, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF FLORIDA, - _County of Hillsborough, ss_: - -I, Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., being duly sworn say: - -1. I live at 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida. I travelled to Europe -on the S.S. Marion Lykes which departed New Orleans, Louisiana for -LeHavre, France, on or about September 20, 1959. - -2. I recall that besides my husband, there were two other passengers: -Lee Harvey Oswald and Bill Lord. My husband and I sat at the same table -with Oswald for meals, but outside of meals, we did not have much -contact with him. While I had endeavored to get acquainted with Lee -Harvey Oswald, he did not enter into friendly conversation. He stayed -to himself, and I considered him peculiar. - -3. Oswald indicated that the purpose of the trip was to attend a -university in Switzerland, but he evaded giving the name of the -university and, he did not indicate any clear cut or positive courses -of study other than a statement to the effect that he might study -philosophy or psychology. His attitude seemed to be one of resentment. -His roommate, Bill Lord, was going to attend a university in France and -was studying French during the trip. Lord was quite exuberant about his -course of study and purpose of life, in contrast to the attitude of Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -4. I do not recall Oswald doing any reading. However, I gave him a book -which he never returned. - -5. Upon completion of the voyage aboard the S.S. Marion Lykes, I -obtained the address of Bill Lord for the purpose of perhaps later -writing him or sending him Christmas cards. I also requested Oswald's -address and he questioned the purpose of my request. He later -reluctantly furnished his home address as, C/O Mrs. M. Oswald, 3124 -West Fifth Street, Fort Worth, Texas. I wrote this in my address book. - -6. At no time did Lee Harvey Oswald indicate that he was actually -planning or attempting to defect or go to Russia. There was no -indication that Oswald had any Communist leanings. - -I did notice that Oswald spoke with the Chief Engineer who was then -aboard the S.S. Marion Lykes. The Chief Engineer indicated to me that -he felt that Oswald was a smart boy. - -7. This was the last I ever saw or heard from Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Signed this 27th day of June 1964. - - (S) Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., - Mrs. GEORGE B. CHURCH, Jr. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF BILLY JOE LORD - -The following affidavit was executed by Billy Joe Lord on June 26, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Travis, ss_: - -I, Billy Joe Lord, being duly sworn say: - -1. I am an Airman Third Class in the United States Air Force, and I am -in the 340th Bomb Wing, Combat Defense Squadron at Bergstrom Air Force -Base, Texas. I am 22 years old and my parents live at Midland, Texas. - -2. After graduating from Midland High School in 1959, with the -financial assistance of my parents, I made plans to continue my -education in France. During August, 1959, I made an application for a -passport, and on or about September 15, 1959, I departed Midland, Texas -via train for New Orleans, Louisiana, arriving there about September -17, 1959. I spent the next three days touring the city of New Orleans -and making several trips to the ticket office of the Lykes Lines. The -cost of passage aboard the ship S.S. Marion Lykes amounted to slightly -more than $200. I registered and stayed in the LaSalle Hotel on Canal -Street, which was near the city library. I visited the library several -times during this stay in the city. During this period I did not know -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -3. On September 20, 1959, I boarded the freighter S.S. Marion Lykes at -New Orleans. Upon boarding the ship, I was shown to my room, and when I -got there, Lee Harvey Oswald was already there and moving in. We were -to share this room. I had never before seen nor heard of Lee Harvey -Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald and I shared this cabin for the duration of -the trip to France which was fourteen days. - -4. In our first conversation, Oswald said that he was recently -discharged from the Marines and that he had worked in some technical -field while in the Marines. He indicated that he was somewhat bitter -about the fact that his mother had to work in a drugstore in Fort -Worth, Texas, and was having a difficult time. He also said that -he would probably return to the United States to work. He gave no -indication of his ultimate destination, although he said he was going -to travel around in Europe and possibly attend school in Switzerland if -he had sufficient funds. Also in this first conversation, we discussed -religion. I do not know why we discussed religion except that possibly -he noticed that I had a bible. Oswald maintained that he could not -see how I could believe in God in view of the fact that science had -disproved the existence of God, and that there was only matter. - -5. After the first day, I hardly conversed with Oswald at all. Oswald -was not outgoing and neither was I. We just were not very friendly. - -6. Besides Oswald and myself, there were two other passengers aboard -the ship. They were a retired U.S. Army Colonel and his wife, Colonel -and Mrs. George B. Church, Jr. All four of the passengers generally -ate their meals together in the ships officer's mess. Oswald ate most -of his meals with us. I do not recall Colonel Church and his wife -associating very much with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -7. I shared a closet with Oswald, but I did not notice anything out -of the ordinary among Oswald's possessions. He did show me either his -military identification card or his passport. - -8. Oswald did not indicate that he might defect to Russia. To the -best of my knowledge, Oswald did not receive any correspondence or -communications while aboard the ship, nor did he associate with any -of the ship's crew. Oswald never mentioned any contacts or friends in -Europe. - -9. Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be a normal, healthy individual, -mentally alert, but extremely cynical in his general attitude. - -On October 5, 1959, our ship arrived in France, and I disembarked from -the ship. I never saw or heard from him again. It is my recollection -that he departed from the ship subsequent to my departure. I had -written my mother about all the passengers. When Oswald defected, she -sent me a newspaper clipping about it. - -10. Oswald spent a great deal of his time during the trip on the deck. -I do not recall him doing any reading. I do recall, however, that there -was a radio speaker which received programs from Europe and that Oswald -and Colonel Church seemed to understand a little bit of the foreign -language that came over on the speaker. I thought it was German, but I -am not sure. - -11. I attended the Institute of French Studies at the City of Tours, -Province of Touraine, France, from October, 1959 to February, 1962 -intermittently while auditing courses at the University of Poitires, -Tours, France, and at the Sorbonne, University of Paris, France. I -returned to the United States aboard the French ship, Liberty, in June, -1960. I went to France again in February of 1961 for further education, -and returned to the United States in February of 1962. - -Signed this 26th day of June 1964. - - (S) Billy Joe Lord, - BILLY JOE LORD. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ALEXANDER KLEINLERER - -The following affidavit was executed by Alexander Kleinlerer on June -16, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Tarrant, ss_: - -Alexander Kleinlerer of 3542 Kent Street, Fort Worth, Texas, being duly -sworn, says: - -1. My name is Alexander Kleinlerer and I do now reside and for several -years last pass have resided at the above address. - -2. I am and have for several years been a foreign representative of -Loma Industries, a plastics production company, located at 3000 West -Pafford Street, Fort Worth, Texas. I am 41 years of age and single. -I was born in Poland of Polish parents both of whom died in German -concentration camps during World War II. During the War I lost all -members of my family, not only my immediate family, but my relatives -as well, other than a sister in Paris, France who is still alive and -a cousin who once resided in Russia but who now lives in Poland. The -area in Poland in which I and my family and relatives resided was -overrun by the German Army. I was confined in Buchenwald concentration -camp until 1945 when I was liberated by General Patton's forces. I -immediately moved to Czechoslovakia and then to France. In May of 1956, -I journeyed from France to the United States and found employment with -Loma Industries. I returned to France as a foreign representative for -that company in November of 1957 and remained there until June of 1961 -when I returned to the United States. In due course thereafter I became -a naturalized citizen of the United States in May 1963. - -3. I speak a number of European languages well. As a result I have -become acquainted with numerous foreign language speaking individuals -in the Fort Worth-Dallas area. These include, insofar as the Oswald -incident is concerned, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, Mr. and Mrs. George -deMohrenschildt, Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall, Lydia -Dymitruk, Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir -Voshinin. - -4. During 1962, I was enamoured of and was courting Mrs. Elena Hall who -was then divorced from her husband John. I first become acquainted with -Lee Harvey and Marina Oswald on a Sunday morning in the fore part of -September 1962. I was working in Mrs. Hall's garage at 4760 Trail Lake -Drive, Fort Worth, Texas, building wooden baffles for stereo speakers. -George Bouhe, a valued friend of mine, drove up in his automobile -accompanied by Oswald, Marina and their infant child. I was introduced -to Oswald and to Marina. Oswald somewhat stiffly acknowledged the -introduction but was laconic and uncommunicative thereafter. They had -come to inquire of Mrs. Hall about dental problems of Marina's. I have -a fairly distinct recollection that Mrs. Anna Meller also accompanied -the group on this occasion. Mrs. Hall is a dental technician employed -by the Patterson Dental Laboratory in Fort Worth. The group was seeking -Mrs. Hall's help as to where a low cost dentist or clinic could be -found where they might take Marina for dental care, having in mind that -the Oswalds were in straitened financial circumstances. I do not recall -what the result of this conversation was in that connection as I did -not accompany the group when they went into Mrs. Hall's home. - -5. Thereafter during September, while the Oswalds still resided on -Mercedes Street near the Montgomery Ward store, I visited there with -Mrs. Hall on two occasions. The reason for the earliest of these -additional occasions was that Mrs. Hall and George Bouhe had asked me -to inquire among the girls in my office for dresses and other wearing -apparel for Marina. I collected some sweaters, skirts and a dress or -two. Mrs. Hall also inquired among her friends and collected some -things. We put these together in one package and Mrs. Hall and I drove -to the Oswald apartment on Mercedes Street to deliver the package. We -were shocked to find that the Oswald child had no baby crib or bed but -was kept on the floor in the bedroom either in a suitcase or between -two suitcases. - -6. Within a few days we returned to the Oswalds with a baby bed that -Mrs. Hall had obtained from some friend. We purchased a mattress for -the baby bed and delivered these items to the Oswalds at the Mercedes -Street apartment. - -7. There was another occasion when I was at the Mercedes Street -apartment. George Bouhe had called me and asked me to meet him there. -This had nothing to do with the Oswalds. George Bouhe and I are good -friends and he was calling to say that he was going to be in Fort Worth -at the Oswalds and asked me to drop by so we could have a friendly -visit. On this occasion I saw the Oswalds briefly. I recall that Anna -Meller came with George Bouhe and there was an older lady whose name -I do not now recall. I remember that Oswald and Marina were seated -at the dining table eating. We were sitting there talking with Mr. -George Bouhe when suddenly Oswald noticed there was no butter on the -table. He rose red faced and angry and in our presence rudely and in a -domineering and overbearing manner, and as though Marina was a mere -chattel, proceeded to vigourously reprimand her. It was like a sergeant -bullying a new recruit. We were all embarrassed and shocked. - -8. Mrs. Hall was injured in an automobile accident in Fort Worth the -evening of October 18, 1962. Marina and the child were residing in Mrs. -Hall's home at this time. They had come to Mrs. Hall's home earlier in -the month because Oswald had, we understood, lost his job and it had -been agreed among Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the others that Oswald -would go to Dallas to seek employment and Marina would stay with Mrs. -Hall. Mrs. Hall was released from the hospital in the latter part of -October, I think around October 26th. She spent a few days at home and -on October 30, 1962, a date which I have checked from a receipt that -I have, she left Fort Worth for Garden City, New York, to visit with -friends. While away on this trip she was reunited with and remarried -her former husband John Hall. My recollection is that they returned to -Fort Worth about the 11th or 12th of November 1962, and in any event -by the 15th. While Mrs. Hall was in the hospital and while she was -visiting in New York, I frequently called at the Hall home during my -lunch period (usually about 1:00 p.m.), at the request of Mrs. Hall, to -inquire of Marina's needs and her welfare and to see that matters about -the house were all right. I reported regularly to Mrs. Hall what my -impressions were. - -9. During the periods Mrs. Hall was in the hospital and later in New -York, Oswald came to the Hall home on several occasions on Friday night -and stayed until late Sunday afternoon or early Sunday evening when he -returned by bus to Dallas. Mrs. Hall's home is approximately 12 to 14 -miles from the business district of Fort Worth, and it is approximately -30 to 32 miles from the Fort Worth business district to the business -district of Dallas. A trip from Mrs. Hall's home to Dallas involves in -travel some 40 or more miles. - -10. I distinctly recall the occasion upon which and the circumstances -under which Marina left Mrs. Hall's and was taken by Oswald and George -deMohrenschildt's daughter Alexandra and her husband Gary Taylor to -Dallas to live. It was on a Sunday while Mrs. Hall was in New York. -My recollection is that it was in the fore part of November on the -Sunday preceding the return of Mr. and Mrs. Hall from New York. On the -preceding Friday evening the phone rang in my apartment. It was Marina. -She said that she was going to leave the Halls and go to Dallas to -live with Oswald. At this point Oswald interrupted and spoke on the -telephone saying to me in a commanding way that they were going to -move into Dallas that coming week-end and he directed me to come by -the next day. I came by the Halls the next day, which was Saturday, in -the morning. Marina and Oswald were there. I entered the house. Marina -was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun -to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that -the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to -her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer -commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the -Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with -which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was -standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room -of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in -a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped -her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her -face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my -presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long -been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything. - -11. The arrangements for moving the following day were discussed. I was -to be there to supervise the removal of the Oswald paraphernalia and to -lock up the Hall residence. - -12. When I arrived at the Hall's residence on that Sunday morning, -Marina and George deMohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra Taylor, were -there. Oswald and Gary Taylor, the husband of Alexandra, George -deMohrenschildt's daughter, were off somewhere in Fort Worth seeking -to rent a "U-Haul-It" automobile trailer into which the Oswald -paraphernalia was to be placed. Most of the Oswald goods that had -been stored in Mrs. Hall's garage and which had been in her home were -already packed in preparation for placing in the "U-Haul-It" trailer. -Oswald and Gary Taylor returned in due course, in Taylor's automobile -with the trailer hooked on behind. Taylor among other occupations, was -a taxi driver in Dallas at this time. - -13. I had met both Alexandra and Gary Taylor at the Hall's on a prior -occasion. This was a weekday evening after Mrs. Hall returned from -the hospital. They had been eating dinner at Mrs. Hall's home. I came -to visit Mrs. Hall and was surprised to see them all at the table. Of -course I left immediately since I hadn't been invited to the dinner. -The Taylors brought Oswald with them in Taylor's car so that Oswald -could visit Marina. - -14. I supervised the placing of the Oswald goods and wearing apparel -in the "U-Haul-It" trailer. There were several instances in which I -had to intervene when Oswald picked up some of Mrs. Hall's things to -place in the trailer. I could not say whether this was deliberate or -inadvertent, except that there were several instances. My recollection -is that Oswald and Taylor had obtained the trailer at a service station -in Fort Worth. It seems to me it was a place somewhere on Barry Street. -In due course the loading was completed. They got into Taylor's -automobile and drove off. I understood from the telephone conversation -on Friday night and my visit with the Oswalds at the Halls on Saturday, -and the conversations that took place on Sunday, that the Oswalds were -moving into an apartment in Dallas which Oswald had very recently -rented. This was the last time I ever saw either of the Oswalds or had -any contact with them. I had arrived at Mrs. Hall's around 1:00 p.m. -and they departed around 3:30 p.m. - -15. I recall that while Marina was staying at the Halls, and either -before Mrs. Hall went to the hospital, or during the four or five days -she was at home before departing for New York, that Oswald telephoned -to speak with Marina. This was on a Saturday evening. - -16. I recall the time that Oswald reported he had lost his job at -Leslie Welding Company. It was the first week-end in October 1962. -My recollection is that it was agreed that Marina would come to Mrs. -Hall's house to stay while Oswald looked for a job in Dallas. I am -uncertain whether Marina was brought directly to the Halls from the -Mercedes Street apartment. There may have been something about Marina -being taken to the Taylors' apartment in Dallas for a few days so that -she could have some dental care at the Baylor University Clinic in -Dallas. I do recall clearly that Mrs. Hall had a pickup truck which -was owned by the dental laboratory where she was employed. Mrs. Hall -had permission to drive to and from work with the pickup truck. It -was agreed that the Oswald household goods and other paraphernalia -would be moved to the Halls in the pickup truck. It may well be that -Marina went directly to the Taylors; that the Oswald household goods -and paraphernalia was taken to the Halls; and that Marina came to the -Halls when her dental care at Baylor Clinic was completed. I understand -Marina's appointments were on October 8th, 10th and 15th. It is my -recollection, however, that the Oswald goods were packed in the trailer -by John Hall and Mrs. Hall and were taken to the Halls. It may be that -Oswald helped. My impression is that this was done on a Monday, but -since, as I have now been advised, Oswald apparently worked at Leslie -Welding Company on Monday, October 8th, that the transfer of the Oswald -goods did not take place until Monday night after Oswald returned from -his last working day at Leslie Welding Company. It was at Mrs. Hall's -invitation that Marina went to live at Mrs. Hall's house. - -17. In any event, I recall that nothing was heard from Oswald for a -number of days after Marina came to Mrs. Halls to live. I assumed he -was in Dallas, and knowing that the distance between Dallas and Mrs. -Hall's home in Fort Worth was great, I thought relatively nothing of -this, except that I thought that he should have telephoned. - -18. On a good many of the occasions that I dropped by the Hall -residence during my luncheon hour, I found that Marina had not yet -awakened. I would have to arouse her by ringing the door bell and -banging on the front door. I would find the household unkept, unwashed -dishes in the sink or on the eating table, and her's and the baby's -clothing strewn about the room. Marina would come to the door in a -wrap-around, her hair disheveled and her eyes heavy with the effect of -many hours of sleep. She would make some excuses about sleeping late. - -On other occasions I was frequently in the Hall home when Mrs. Hall was -home in the evenings and on weekends. I noticed that Marina did nothing -to help Mrs. Hall in the house. Mrs. Hall often complained to me that -Marina was lazy, that she slept until noon or thereabouts, and would -not do anything around the house to help. I observed on many occasions -that Marina was not neat and that she often dressed rather haphazardly. - -19. I was concerned and suspicious about Oswald from the outset. I -could not understand how he had been able to go to Russia and return -with seeming ease, especially since he had attempted to defect and -because I was aware that my cousin had not been able to get his wife -and child out of Russia although he now lives in Poland. Also, I was -alarmed from the outset by Oswald's talk. Other friends told me he -frequently compared conditions here in America with those in Russia to -the detriment of America and he did this in a way that was contemptuous -of America. They said he would repeatedly say that there was no -unemployment in Russia but that there was a lot of it in America; that -capitalists in America lived off the workers. They said he argued that -in Russia medical attention and care was at hand and was free, whereas -in America you either had to pay doctors or hospitals or that even in -clinics you always had to pay something. - -20. I saw magazines about Russia in the Oswald apartment on Mercedes -Street. Some were in the Russian language and some were in English. -There were also newspapers in the Russian language. - -21. I have always been very grateful to America. Americans have been -very kind to me and I think a good deal of this country. It upset me -when Oswald would say things against the United States. I did not argue -with him because he appeared to me to be dangerous in his mind and I -was frightened. I once said to him that, unlike him, I had come to this -country for freedom and not to look for trouble by criticizing the -United States; that while I did not have much money, I did have freedom -and opportunity and Americans were kind to me. - -22. I and Mrs. Hall, Mrs. Meller, George Bouhe, and the others were -disturbed that Oswald flatly declined to make any effort to teach -Marina English. He said he wanted to keep his Russian sharpened up. We -thought this was very selfish of him. He would speak to other members -of our group in Russian. I refused to discuss anything with him in -Russian. I told him that if he wanted to talk with me he would have -to talk to me in English; that he was born and raised in this country -and his national tongue was English and he should be proud to speak -English. I never answered him at any time in Russian. I thought at -times he was bent on making Marina dissatisfied with the United States -and also that he did not want her to have friends. - -23. He treated Marina very poorly. He belittled her and was boorish to -her in our presence. He talked to her and ordered her around just as -though she were a mere chattel. He was never polite or tender to her. I -feel very strongly that she was frightened of him. The only occasion I -saw him physically mistreat her was the occasion I have mentioned but I -heard repeatedly from Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe, and others that Oswald -was physically mistreating her. - -24. Oswald was not grateful for any of the help that was being accorded -to him and Marina. He never once offered to contribute in even a -small way to Mrs. Hall or any of the others with whom Marina stayed. -This was often a topic of conversation among us. We did not have much -money ourselves and we were knocking ourselves out to help. He did not -express any thanks or evidence the slightest appreciation; in fact, he -evidenced displeasure and contempt. - -25. I expressed to Mrs. Hall and to my friend George Bouhe, and to -others that I thought that they were only worsening things because the -Oswalds did not appear appreciative of what was being done for them. He -acted as though the world owed him a living. I had the impression from -time to time that Marina was pretending and acting. - -26. Oswald always acted toward her like a soldier commanding one of his -troops. My overall impression of Oswald was that he was angry with the -whole world and with himself to boot; that he really did not know what -he wanted; that he was frustrated because he was not looked up to; and -that he was dissatisfied with everything, including himself. - -27. Mrs. Hall told me on several occasions that Marina had said to her -that she was quite afraid of Oswald and that when she got to know a -little more English she intended to leave him. Oswald did not care who -was present as far as his boorish attitude toward Marina was concerned. -It seemed that he did not care what others thought about anything. - -28. Anna Meller, Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the deMohrenschildts, and -all that group had pity for Marina and her child. None of us cared -for Oswald because of his political philosophy, his criticism of the -United States, his apparent lack of interest in anyone but himself and -because of his treatment of Marina. Although the men were sometimes -skeptical about helping them out, the ladies were quite compassionate -about Marina and felt that she needed help not only because of -their straitened financial circumstances, but because of Oswald's -mistreatment of her. - -29. I recall that when I saw the newspaper item in the Fort Worth paper -about Oswald returning from Russia with his Russian wife, I spoke to -Max Clark and his wife. They are good friends and fine people, and he -is a lawyer. We were all apprehensive about coming in contact with the -Oswalds but all the friends of mine later expressed the view that the -Federal Bureau of Investigation knew Oswald and Marina were coming into -this country, and if they did not do anything about it, it was probably -all right to have contact with them. I am afraid I never became -completely reassured. - -30. Marina never had any money, not even pennies. Oswald would not give -any money to her. Consequently, when she lived with Mrs. Hall and later -with the others she and her baby were utterly dependent upon their -host. She could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she -wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts. - -Signed this 16th day of June 1964. - - (S) Alexander Kleinlerer, - ALEXANDER KLEINLERER. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD GIBSON - -The testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson was taken at 11 a.m., on May 28, -1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. -Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel, and Richard M. Mosk, member of the -staff of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be sworn? - -Mrs. Gibson, in the testimony you are about to give on your deposition -do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Be seated, please. You are Mrs. Donald Gibson? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are the former Alexandra De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were at one time married to Mr. Gary Taylor, of -Dallas, Tex.? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You now live in Wingdale, N.Y.? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your address in Wingdale? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Harlem Valley State Hospital, Building 28, Wingdale, N.Y. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you are employed at the hospital? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a State mental institution? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your husband also employed there? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Our information is that you were born on Christmas Day 1943? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. That was here in the United States? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. New York, to be exact? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So that you are now 20 years of age and will be 21 next -December? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your father is George Sergei De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother is Jeanne Fomenko De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. F-o-m-e-n-k-o? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't know that. - -Mr. JENNER. Also at one point in her life, Jeanne Bogoiavlensky; is -that correct? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; Bogoiavlensky. - -Mr. JENNER. You were a resident of Dallas, Tex., in 1962? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then married to Gary Taylor? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your address? - -Mrs. GIBSON. 3519 Fairmount. - -Mr. JENNER. You married Mr. Taylor at a very early age as I recall? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. November 21, 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't care for the details, but after you married Mr. -Taylor, you and he lived in various places in Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of his employment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he did all sorts of things. He went to school at one -time, to college. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; in Arlington. We lived in Arlington, too. - -Mr. JENNER. What college was that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Arlington State. I can't recall all the jobs he did. I -mean he did a little bit of this and a little bit of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's get to 1962. What was he doing then? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He was working off and on with a photographer, working -on a movie, and driving a taxi part time. He also, he and this friend -of his, Steve Moore, were trying to found this little company of -landscaping. That didn't work out, so he still kept on his photography -business. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his first name? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it is---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his birthday? - -Mrs. GIBSON. December 24, I think 1939. - -Mr. JENNER. So he was older, 4 years older than you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He was 4 years older than me; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you were subsequently divorced? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You and Mr. Taylor. And when was that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Our divorce became final, I believe, the 15th of April of -last year. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mrs. GIBSON. 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it there is a waiting period then? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Three months. - -Mr. JENNER. So the decree was entered the 15th of January? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know. I didn't enter it. I left Dallas and -asked him to please divorce me. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't want to go through all the rigmarole of getting a -divorce; no. I wanted to get out of Dallas right then. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you living together as man and wife during all of the -year 1962? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Until November, the last part of November of 1962; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you been separated prior to that time? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; in 1961, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a child? - -Mrs. GIBSON. One child. - -Mr. JENNER. Born of that marriage? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that child's name? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Curtis Lee Taylor. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that child born? - -Mrs. GIBSON. February 10, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. While living at 3519 Fairmount in Dallas during the year -1962, did you become acquainted with a lady by the name of Marina -Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you also become acquainted with a gentleman by the name -of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With whom did you become acquainted first? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Marina Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me when, as closely as you can fix it. Let me put -it this way. Tell me first the circumstances under which you became -acquainted, what led up to it and how it occurred, and then fix as -closely as you can when in 1962 you did become acquainted. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, my stepmother and my father called me up. - -Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother is Jeanne De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Jeanne; and my father called me up one evening and asked -me---- - -Mr. JENNER. At your apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. At my apartment; and asked me if I would please take care -of Marina Oswald's child while she went to the dentist, and could she -stay overnight with me because she had two appointments in a row, one -on one day and one the next day, and I said all right. And as for the -date, I imagine you know it better than I do. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know anything better than you do. - -Mrs. GIBSON. If you give me the date on the pads. I don't remember the -dates at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it the month of September? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. As I said, I thought it was before September. - -Mr. JENNER. Before September? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about the weather? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was very hot, but I don't remember the month. It could -have been---- - -Mr. JENNER. Could it have been in August? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It could have been the latter part of August. It seems to -me that would be about right. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you recall anything about what your father and/or your -stepmother said to you in identifying these people? You were naturally -curious as to who they were? - -Mrs. GIBSON. They told me that they were recently, Marina and Lee were -recently here from Russia, and hadn't been in Dallas very long, or Fort -Worth, wherever they were staying, and that she had a child the same -age as mine, and that my stepmother thought it would be very nice if -we got acquainted. And she said Marina was around my age, and asked if -I would please help them out since they didn't have any room in their -apartment to keep her while she had these dental appointments. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, they didn't have any room in the De -Mohrenschildts' apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. From that conversation you became aware, had the impression -that your father and your stepmother had had some prior acquaintance -with these people? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think they just recently met them. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the impression? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That was the impression I got. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what day of the week--that is, not the -particular date as such, but was it a weekday, a Saturday, or a Sunday? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was a weekday. Whether it was in the beginning of the -week or the middle or the end I don't remember, but it was a weekday. - -Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they called me the night before, but it was in the -early morning of the next day. - -Mr. JENNER. That you met Marina? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That I met Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina come alone? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; my stepmother brought her and the child. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in the morning? - -Mrs. GIBSON. In the morning; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe your apartment, will you please? - -Mrs. GIBSON. How do you mean describe it? - -Mr. JENNER. How many rooms, living room, bedroom, two bedrooms, -kitchen, dining room? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, there are five rooms, I guess, in all. - -Mr. JENNER. And they consisted of? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom. -There was a small adjoining room to the bedroom but it wouldn't be -classified as a whole room. - -Mr. JENNER. Sort of more of a dressing room? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. For what purpose were you employing that room at that time? - -Mrs. GIBSON. My child slept in that room. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you folks, that is yourself and your husband, -normally sleep? - -Mrs. GIBSON. We slept in the living room. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your normal practice? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. So that the bedroom you mentioned was not occupied? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; it wasn't. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not in use, rather, at the time that Marina stayed -with you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; it was used as a playroom really for my son Curtis. - -Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother brought Marina and the baby to your home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home at that time? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. That is it was at a time when he would have departed for -work? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe he had already gone to work. - -Mr. JENNER. You said that Marina was to receive some dental care? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she remain in the apartment all day after she arrived? - -Mrs. GIBSON. After she came back from the dentist, she stayed there, -I think she had a tooth, one or two pulled, and she stayed there that -afternoon, after she came back from the dentist. - -Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother brought her and then your stepmother took -her to the dentist? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. They returned? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. That afternoon. - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain and the baby remain with you overnight -and into the next day? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did Marina and her child stay that evening? - -Mrs. GIBSON. They slept in the bedroom. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't lodge her child, June, in the room in which your -son Curtis was? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first meet Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it was on the evening of the first day that -Marina stayed with me. - -Mr. JENNER. Did someone bring him or did he come alone? - -Mrs. GIBSON. As far as I know, he came alone. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to the place from which he had -come? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know where he had come from. - -Mr. JENNER. But he came alone? - -Mrs. GIBSON. As far as I know; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina able to speak English? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; not a word. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any problems in that connection? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I got a little dictionary and tried to figure out a -few words, but it was very hard to communicate with her. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your remark that you yourself are not -fluent in Russian? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you understand Russian? - -Mrs. GIBSON. A few words. - -Mr. JENNER. Your father speaks Russian fluently, does he not? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he does. - -Mr. JENNER. And your stepmother? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Despite their fluency in Russian, you never acquired any -fluency? You just didn't acquire any familiarity with Russian? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Except your understanding of a few words? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event you are unable to speak it? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. When Oswald came to your house that evening, did he speak -English or Russian? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He spoke English to us and Russian to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. When he arrived, did he speak with his child? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In what language did he speak with the child? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. That was not merely small talk? All of his conversation -with his child was in Russian? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Some was small talk. You could tell that he was just -playing around, and when he really talked to her, it was in Russian. Of -course once in a while he'd lapse into English. - -Mr. JENNER. You minded the child June while Marina was at the dentist? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And also the following day while she was at the dentist? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you get along with the child? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Not very well. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Pardon? I didn't understand you. - -Mr. JENNER. You say you didn't get along very well with the child. -State it more fully to me factually; what the problems were. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, the minute Marina left, the child would start to -cry. She whimpered all the time. I couldn't feed her. Every time I got -near her she'd scream. She never slept. She's a very difficult child to -get along with. She was not at all affectionate to anybody else but to -her own parents. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think she found it strange to have anyone speak to -her in English as distinguished from Russian? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know if it was the English. I don't believe she -had ever been with anybody but her parents and I think that might have -had a lot to do with it, plus she was very spoiled, very catered to by -her mother and her father. - -Mr. JENNER. There were subsequent occasions when you visited the -Oswalds or they visited you or Marina visited you or you visited Marina? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Drawing on the whole span of your acquaintance with the -Oswalds, rather than merely those first 2 days, did you ever hear Lee -Oswald address his child other than in Russian? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, like I said, sometimes he'd lapse into English. I -imagine it was mainly for our benefit, more so than the child's. I -mean normally he probably spoke to the child alone or when he was with -Marina always in Russian. He never spoke English to her ever or even -tried to teach her English, never attempted to. - -Mr. JENNER. That is he never spoke to Marina other than in Russian, and -as you say, he never tried to teach her English? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He never tried to teach her English, never, not one word. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that strike you and your husband Gary as a little out -of the ordinary? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, we told him we thought that it was extremely stupid -and we asked him why, and he said that he didn't want to lose his -Russian. She, of course--in Russia I believe she worked in a pharmacy. -Wasn't she a pharmacist? And therefore we said to be able to get a -license over here she would have to speak English, and it didn't seem -to bother him. I think he didn't like the idea of her having more -education than he did. I think he wanted her to remain solely dependent -on him. - -Mr. JENNER. During all the period that you and your husband were -acquainted with the Oswalds, was there ever any discussion about either -of them returning to Russia? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; he did not want to go back. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. He disliked Russia just like he disliked the United -States. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of him? Was he looking for utopia? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say so. He didn't agree with communism and he didn't -agree with capitalism. He had his own ideas completely on government. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please call on your recollection and tell us -what you recall as to what his beliefs, political beliefs, were, as he -expressed them? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I'd say that his beliefs were more socialistic than -anything else. I mean he believed in the perfect government, free of -want and need, and free of taxation, free of discrimination, free of -any police force, the right to be able to do exactly what he pleased, -exactly when he pleased, just total and complete freedom in everything. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he talk in terms of any obligation to this so-called -perfect state? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. Actually I think he believed in no government -whatsoever, just a perfect place where people lived happily all -together and no religion, nothing of any sort, no ties and no holds to -anything except himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss in that connection the necessity for -making a contribution to that society; working himself? Or was this a -Utopia in which he was to be free to do what he pleased, work or not as -he saw fit? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know if he planned to work or not. I don't -know what Lee wanted to do in life. I think he wanted to be a very -important person without putting anything into it at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of resentment on his part? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He resented any type of authority. He expected to be the -highest paid immediately, the best liked, the highest skilled. He -resented any people in high places, any people of any authority in -government or, oh, in let's say the police force or anything like -that, or in your Army, Navy, Marines or whatever he was in. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there discussions between your husband and him on -these subjects? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; quite frequently. They argued a lot about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion--you say he wanted to be the -highest paid, he wanted to be the leader and that sort of thing. Did -your husband raise with him any necessity on his part to qualify -himself for those positions and that high pay? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, my husband told him you can't be something for -nothing. He said you can't expect to get high pay and receive a good -position with no education and no ambition, no particular goal, no -anything. Well, he just expected a lot for nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. You have the impression that he was not an ambitious -person, ambitious in the sense of willing to devote himself to an -objective and work toward something? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted. - -Mr. JENNER. As distinguished from just being given to him or falling in -his lap? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted, and I don't -think he was too interested in working toward anything. He expected -things to be just given to him on a silver platter. But in his ideas, -he was extremely devoted. - -Mr. JENNER. He was devoted to his concepts? - -Mrs. GIBSON. To his ideas as to how he thought. You couldn't change his -mind no matter what you said to him. - -Mr. JENNER. He was rigid in his views then? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Very, very rigid in his ideas. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say about Russia during these periods when you -had these discussions? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he said he was very disappointed in Russia. Russia -was not what he thought it would be. It was not the ideal place, that -Communism was not the ideal government, that he disliked Communism just -as he disliked capitalism, that he disliked Russia very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you about his life in Russia? You were curious -about it and your husband too, I assume? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he told us bits and pieces about it, and then of -course he gave us a manuscript to read. He told us quite a bit about -Russia, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what you recall as to what he said -in that connection? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I can't recall any specific thing. I recall that he -said he was quite sick over there; this didn't hold too well. He said -he was treated with a little more deference than the next ordinary -Russian person because he was American, that he had a terrific time -leaving Russia, and that it scared him very much. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean terrific in the sense of difficulty? - -Mrs. GIBSON. A very difficult time. I think he said it took him a year -to be able to get out of Russia. He almost didn't make it. It scared -him very much. He was supposed to give over his citizenship and become -a citizen of Russia to be able to work there, but he didn't do this, -and he was still able to work there. He didn't know why exactly, but -they allowed him to work there anyway. But they kept pressuring him -to give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia, get working -papers. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about that. Tell us everything you remember as -to what he said about the fact that they pressured him to give up his -citizenship so he could stay in Russia and work. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I don't know how you consider pressuring him. They -kept suggesting that he should give up his citizenship to be able to -work in Russia; otherwise, why was he there? If he was there obviously -he wanted to become a Russian. To be able to work in Russia you were -supposed to be a Russian citizen. You had to give up your citizenship. -And he kept objecting to this. I guess he was scared. He didn't really -want to go as far as giving up his American citizenship. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his course of conduct when -he first went to Russia, any attempted surrender by him of his -citizenship at that time voluntarily? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't recall that he did say anything about -voluntarily giving up his citizenship; no. He might have. I don't -recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion as to how he met Marina; and their -courtship and marriage? - -Mrs. GIBSON. There was. I don't remember too much of it. I think he -met her in Minsk. I believe he was working there at a factory that -manufactured television chassis, and he met her, I don't know exactly -how. I think he met her when he was sick in the hospital. I don't know -what was wrong with him. And they I guess went out from there, and I -guess, I don't know how long they went out, and they got married. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "went out" you meant began to date? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Dating; yes. I don't know exactly what you do in Russia. -And I think she wanted to come to the United States very badly. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, calling of course on your -recollection of what was said which gave you these impressions? That -is, what you learned from her or from conversations with him in her -presence? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I guess this was rather hearsay. I think she told this -to my stepmother in conversation, that she wanted very much to come to -the United States to make a better life for herself, that she wasn't -very much interested in politics, just in a better place to live. -Supposedly this is the reason she married Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your impression in any event? - -Mrs. GIBSON. This is what I was told, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing occurred during the period of time that you had -this acquaintanceship with the Oswalds that disabused you of that -impression? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; and I wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of -love lost between them. - -Mr. JENNER. Between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. They quarreled quite a lot. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina -and Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, -always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall -in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, -physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know -what you would call him, her fiance, Alex---- - -Mr. JENNER. Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. I don't know his name. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe him to us. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Describe him? - -Mr. JENNER. Physically. - -Mrs. GIBSON. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, -European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, -very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy -customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few -languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I -have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee -at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat -her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any of this occur in your presence? - -Mrs. GIBSON. One afternoon he was telling Lee off very, very---- - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us where this occurred? - -Mrs. GIBSON. This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. You were present? - -Mrs. GIBSON. And my husband; we were both present. - -Mr. JENNER. And who else please? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, -and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up -Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a -tongue lashing. - -Mr. JENNER. And what response did he obtain from Lee? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Very sullen, very sharp answers. In fact I thought there -was going to be a fight there for a minute. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee deny at that time in your presence, these -accusations being uttered by Alexander Kleinlerer? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He said it was none of his business. - -Mr. JENNER. But he didn't deny that he had done this? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He just said it was none of Kleinlerer's business? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Had either you or your husband ever--did either you or your -husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; we never talked to him about beating his wife. We just -talked to him about how he should teach her English, how it was very -important for her to know English. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that that phase, that is the teaching of English -to her, that sort of conversation occurred several times during your -acquaintanceship with Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, yes; very often. - -Mr. JENNER. And his response always was that he didn't want to lose---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't want to lose his Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anything said by you or Gary that he could speak -to her in Russian and she could speak with him in Russian but at the -same time she could be taught English? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your husband Gary urged that alternative? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; we just gave up. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a gracious -person, ungracious, was he rude, or was he not? Was he appreciative? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He could be very, very rude. He appreciated absolutely -nothing you did for him. He never thanked you for anything. He seemed -to expect it of you. - -Mr. JENNER. We are going to get into all that eventually, but you and -your husband Gary were very helpful to him, reasonably so in any event. -You did a number of things for him; did you not? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say we did a number of things for him that we didn't -have to do, and we certainly didn't need to do, and we certainly didn't -owe him anything. But we did try to help. - -Mr. JENNER. Now in the face of all that, you say that at no time did he -express any appreciation or thanks. - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think the only time he ever said thank you was when we -moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas. I think it was a very brief thank -you, and that was that. - -Mr. JENNER. But otherwise, he neither expressed nor did you feel any -evidence of appreciation on his part for what you and your husband did? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I didn't feel anything. I fed his wife quite a few -meals. He never offered me any reimbursement of any type for it. He -never thanked me. He just seemed to act as if we owed it to him, and I -felt that I didn't owe him a thing. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Marina, on the other hand, in this connection? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think Marina was appreciative. - -Mr. JENNER. Discounting the difficulty of communication? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I had the feeling she was appreciative; yes. But she was -exceedingly lazy. She would do nothing to help. The only thing she -would do would be to take care of her child. She would do this, thank -goodness, but otherwise she would do nothing to help. She wouldn't help -with the dishes or clearing the table or preparing the meal, cleaning -the apartment, anything pertaining to the extra work I had to do -because she was there. Mrs. Hall had the same complaint. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Hall expressed this complaint to you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Exactly the same complaint: that Marina slept very late, -which she didn't do in my apartment but she did there, that she did -not help with the house, that she didn't do anything really; just sat -around and took care of the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Over this period--let me fix the period of time. You first -met them, your present recollection is, sometime the latter part of -August 1962. When was the last time you saw either of the Oswalds? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when I returned a manuscript to Lee Oswald, it could -have been either the end of November or the middle of December. I am -not sure which. - -Mr. JENNER. 1962? - -Mrs. GIBSON. 1962; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Over this period of approximately, let us say, 3-1/2 months -in 1962, how many times did Marina stay in your home? You have given -one occasion. - -Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been at least two or three, no more than that. - -Mr. JENNER. Over that 3-1/2 month period, the Oswalds were in your home -no more than two or three times that is on visits, one or the other of -them? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; he was. She was only there one other time to visit. He -popped in and out frequently. She was in Fort Worth at the time, and I -didn't see her. - -Mr. JENNER. Going back to this following or second day of Marina's -visit in August, I take it your stepmother picked her up and took her -to the dentist on the second day as well? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she return to Fort Worth that day? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think she took a bus that afternoon to Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she go to the bus station by herself or was she taken? - -Mrs. GIBSON. My stepmother took her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you learn where the Oswalds were living or staying at -that time? That is, is this the first occasion that you met them? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they must have been staying at that duplex. - -Mr. JENNER. On Mercedes Street? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that is where they must have been staying. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in that home or apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the first occasion you were in that duplex? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was Sunday afternoon somewhere, it must have been about -2 weeks or more after I first met them. Gary and I went over to visit -them in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Weekday or weekend? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Sunday. - -Mr. JENNER. On a Sunday. This was then in September of 1962? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been early September or late August. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a visit on your part? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they aware of the fact that you were going to visit -them? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, was anyone there? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I am not very clear on that point. It is possible that -Lee's mother was just leaving. I am not sure. She was either just -leaving or she had just left before we came. I don't remember. I am not -too clear on if I met her passing as she was going out or if I didn't -meet her. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you know where they lived? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Lee I believe--Lee gave us their address. - -Mr. JENNER. On what occasion did he give you their address? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been one of the times he stopped by, dropped -in. I don't really know. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know as I asked you this. Did he visit at your home -at anytime during those first 2 days that Marina stayed with you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he came to visit the first evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you expected him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I had thought that he might be coming. I believe she had -told my stepmother that Lee was dropping by or my stepmother had told -me. Somebody had said something. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the first occasion on which you met Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he stay the evening and then leave? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He stayed about an hour and then he left. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did you notice with respect to the relations -between Lee Oswald and Marina on that first occasion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say they got along fairly well. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he was employed at -that time? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't get any impression one way or the other. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression in that respect when you and -your husband, Gary, visited them on the Sunday afternoon you have -mentioned? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I believe he talked about his employment, but I am not -sure. He must have. They must have talked about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Your impression was he was then working at some kind of -employment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I mean it was just normal to assume. He had an -apartment and a child and a wife. He must have been working. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any others than those you have mentioned who -were at the apartment on that Sunday afternoon; you have mentioned the -possibility of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother and, of course, there was Lee -and the baby and Marina. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Later on in the early evening some people came to visit, -some of the Russian colony from Fort Worth and Dallas. - -I don't recall the names. I think Mrs. Hall and Alex were there. -Otherwise, there must have been four other people, four or five other -people besides them. - -Mr. JENNER. I will mention some names. Mamantov? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know that name. - -Mr. JENNER. Meller? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with the name Meller, aren't you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned Mrs. Hall and Kleinlerer. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As possibly having been there. Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is a possibility. The more I think about it, it is -possible, but I am not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with or aware of the Clarks? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe I knew them. - -Mr. JENNER. They were friends of your father and stepmother? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I am not positive that I knew them very well, but I -have a feeling, the name rings a bell definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the name George Bouhe? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure, but the more I think about it, you asked me -this question earlier, I think he was there. I think he was the extra -man that was there. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get as to whether it had been -expected that this group was to come by or did they just happen by? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think they just dropped in. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they stay very long? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I left before they left. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the conversation on that occasion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I couldn't really tell. A lot of it was in Russian. You -couldn't tell what was going on. - -Mr. JENNER. These were by and large Russian-speaking people? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe the apartment to me, will you please? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, my. Well, it was rather nice. It was clean. There was -a living room and a kitchen and a bedroom and a bath, hardwood floors, -good paint. It was a duplex. A large backyard. The furniture was -rundown but it was usable. All in all it was not a bad apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. What impressions did you get of Lee Harvey Oswald -throughout the 3-1/2 month period, as to his dress and his self-respect -and care? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He was not a very clean person. In fact, I'd say he wasn't -clean at all. He seemed to wear the same shirt for week after week. -Every time we saw him he had the same clothes on. Fairly clean-shaven, -but otherwise he was definitely not a clean person in dress. - -Mr. JENNER. And Marina on the other hand? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say she was fairly clean. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Oswald's attitude and his posture with respect -to other people? Was he reasonably polite and respectful? How did he -conduct himself in the presence of others? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It would depend on who the people were. He could be very -polite if he wished. He could be very sarcastic, very blunt if he -wished. He could be a very friendly person if he wished, and he could -be very quiet if he wished. It just depended on who the people were. - -Mr. JENNER. Which was predominant? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, I don't know. It was really a mixture. He was easy, -not too hard to get along with as far as we were concerned. We argued -with him but it was always a friendly argument. When I saw him with -other people, he was as friendly, smiling, but with his wife he could -be very quiet, very brooding. That is about all I can tell you. - -Mr. JENNER. It has been said of him by some people that he was somewhat -of an introvert, very quiet, not seeking the company of others. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wouldn't say he would seek out company, but when -they came or when he went to visit them or us, he was always very--he -didn't seem to be introverted; no. He seemed to be quite friendly, -quite extroverted, no trouble expressing himself. He didn't sit in -silence for hours. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his regard, his attitude toward others with -respect to--that is did he--let's take your father's folks, did he have -respect for your father? Did he like him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he liked my father very much. He had a great deal of -respect for him. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband Gary? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I would imagine he did. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your impression? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say Marina probably liked Gary more than Lee, -though. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee did visit at your home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he did on occasion seek out your husband? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your husband occasionally sought out him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee express any views with respect to others in that -milieux, that company, the Halls, the Mellers, the Clarks, Bouhe, the -Voshinins, the Russian emigree colony? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he liked Mr. Bouhe very much and he expected a lot -of him. I think he thought that Mr. Bouhe might be his key to getting -a good job. Mrs. Hall now, he liked her, but he said she was a crude, -coarse woman. I think maybe he really deeply didn't like her that well. - -Alex--what did you say his name was? - -Mr. JENNER. Kleinlerer. - -Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't like him at all, and the other people you -mention, I imagine he has talked about them, but I can't place them, so -I don't know his opinion on them. - -Mr. JENNER. These people were trying to help, were they not? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; especially George Bouhe. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Lee's attitude toward that effort? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I don't know why they were trying to help -him. He didn't deserve it. They didn't owe it to him. Yet he seemed -to, I got the feeling he thought they did. Why, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the feeling at any time that he was -contemptuous of any of them? - -Mrs. GIBSON. When they didn't come up with something he wanted; yes. -I'd say George Bouhe was the one that stuck by him the most, more than -my father, more than any of them. Mrs. Hall got disgusted with the -whole thing, and especially, well, with both of them really, a lot with -Marina and a lot with Lee. - -She got very disgusted with the whole situation. My father did, too. -George Bouhe seemed to be the only one that sort of stuck by them. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did your father become disgusted with them? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, just in general, with Lee's lack of being able to -get a good job or being able to really stick with anything, his -treatment of his wife, his treatment of his fellowmen, just his total -indifference. My father just got very aggravated with the whole thing, -got aggravated with Marina for taking Lee's abuse, and he just got fed -up. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion when he either lost or quit his -position in Fort Worth, isn't that so? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. I imagine, I don't know if he lost it or if he quit. I -believe he said he quit. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, now that you have said that, the fact is that -he did quit. Now, to help orient yourself, that occurred on the 8th of -October 1962, which was, I think, a Tuesday but I will check on that to -make sure. That was a Monday. - -Now, between that Sunday afternoon which would be either late in August -or some time in September, and the 8th of October, which was a Monday, -when he left the Leslie Welding Co., had you seen the Oswalds? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Between when? - -Mr. JENNER. Between the Sunday that you visited them and the 8th of -October. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe we had. We might have. He might have -popped in. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. Is this before he stayed at the YMCA? This is before, -isn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. To help you in that respect, he stayed at the YMCA -October 15 through October 19, 1962. - -Mrs. GIBSON. He might have popped in. I don't recall whether he did or -not. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, from that Sunday to -October 8, had Marina stayed with you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. You do recall Lee Oswald being in Fort Worth at the YMCA, -however, do you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. JENNER. I mean in Dallas. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; we took him there. - -Mr. JENNER. You did take him to the YMCA? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, that was the 15th of October? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. 1962. Where was Marina then? - -Mrs. GIBSON. She might have been with us at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether you went to Fort Worth and picked him -up and took him to the YMCA? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe we did. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of that circumstance. - -Mrs. GIBSON. All I can remember is letting him off at the YMCA. I am -almost positive we wouldn't go to Fort Worth, though, to pick him up. -No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a Monday. - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was the afternoon when we dropped him at the Y. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have no present recollection where you picked him -up, whether---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether he had come to your house or what the circumstances -were? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I sure don't. I think he might have come to our house, -but I am not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina stay with you during this October period at all? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think she stayed with us the time that he was in the -YMCA. - -Mr. JENNER. That is? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think she stayed with us about 5 days. - -Mr. JENNER. That is 5 days? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe she stayed with us the full time, no. - -Mr. JENNER. But she did stay with you during a period? - -Mrs. GIBSON. A few; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of how she got there, whether -you went or your husband went and picked her up and brought her to your -home or whether Lee brought her? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe Lee brought her. I think it would -be more--it would be normal to assume, I don't remember this, that -my stepmother or my father must have brought her, because I know we -didn't. I don't recall picking her up at all. - -Mr. JENNER. But she stayed with you then, you think, during the period -that he was at the YMCA? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did Lee visit at your home while she was there during -this YMCA period? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether your husband Gary went over to the -YMCA and picked him up and brought him to your home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think so. I think he came by bus, or walked. -That was possible, too. It wasn't that far. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you locate your apartment at 3519 Fairmont with -respect to the location of the Dallas YMCA. That was downtown? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it was almost downtown. I believe it was on Maple -Avenue or very near Maple Avenue. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, the YMCA was? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and Maple Avenue, we were only one block off of Maple -Avenue. We ran parallel with Maple, Fairmont did, and we were only 1 -block off of Maple, and I'd say it was, oh, maybe 12 blocks from the -YMCA. - -Mr. JENNER. An easy walk? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; 12 or 14, maybe farther, but it was not a real -long walk. It is possible to walk the distance. Bus service was very -frequent and very easy to get. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did you become aware, you and your husband, of the -fact that Lee obtained a position at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th -of October? That is while he was at the YMCA, he had already obtained -this position and had begun to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He began to work there while he was at the Y? - -Mr. JENNER. He went to work on the 12th of October 1962. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh my goodness. Well, it is possible that we knew this. I -know, I remember that he was employed there because I remember he used -to tell Gary how he liked the job, how that interested him. - -Now, when I thought he was employed there I don't know. I remember -when he was at the Y that he was looking for a place to live in the -Dallas-Oak Cliff area. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you or your ex-husband Gary or both of you help him to -look? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe one evening we went out with them and -looked over the prospective places, places that we knew of, the place -where we used to live--and Worthington, and just in the general -low-rent area which would be accessible to where he was going to be -working. - -Mr. JENNER. So that you knew at that time where he was working or going -to work? - -Mrs. GIBSON. We knew the location of the place where he was working. - -Now, I am not sure if we knew that he was working already or if we -thought he was still unemployed, not unemployed but already employed -but not working yet. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Mrs. Hall having been involved in an -automobile accident? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in October, was it not, 1962? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know what the month was, but I imagine it was. It -must have been in the latter part of October. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Marina residing with Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. GIBSON. She was with Mrs. Hall before the accident and after the -accident and while Mrs. Hall was in the hospital she lived at the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall also that Mrs. Hall, after she returned from -the hospital, went to New York City? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And that while she was in New York City, that Marina stayed -at her home also? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether during that period Lee Oswald stayed at -the Halls'? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he did. I believe, while Mrs. Hall was in the -hospital; he stayed with Marina while she was alone for 2, 3, or 4 -days, something like that. He was there off and on. He spent quite a -few nights there, I know this. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions when you and your husband or -either of you were at the Halls' when Oswald was there? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I believe we took him to Fort Worth once to visit, and we -stayed for supper, and Mrs. Hall was there and she cooked us supper. -This is before her accident, and Alex was there and Marina and Gary and -myself. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the occasion to which you earlier made a reference, -is it, or had you done so? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was the occasion where Alex and Lee got into an -argument; yes. And this was prior to Mrs. Hall's accident. We stayed -until fairly late in the evening. I can't remember if we brought Lee -back with us or if he spent the night. It would seem logical, I think -we brought Lee back with us. - -Mr. JENNER. You brought him back to where? - -Mrs. GIBSON. To Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. To where in Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I can't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. This was before he stayed at the YMCA? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; this was after. - -Mr. JENNER. This was after Mrs. Hall returned from the hospital? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; this was before her accident. This is while Marina was -there. - -Mr. JENNER. To help orient you, she was in the hospital from the 18th -of October 1962 to the 26th of October 1962. - -Mrs. GIBSON. This is before her accident. I think only a couple of days -before her accident or a day before, because I remember how shocked I -was when I heard that she had been in an accident. It was only a day or -two before, so where would he have been living, at the Y, wouldn't he, -at that time? - -Mr. JENNER. He would be at the Y. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He was at the Y on the 15th. - -Mrs. GIBSON. I imagine that is where we dropped him then. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of your own personal knowledge the fact that -Lee stayed with Marina at the Halls' from time to time? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; Mrs. Hall told me--he told me and Marina---- - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald told you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and Marina told me in a roundabout fashion. - -Mr. JENNER. How? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, she'd tell, you know, Mrs. Hall to tell me something -and Mrs. Hall would tell me, that is how, or through Lee, or through -gestures or a dictionary she would be able to tell me a few words. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or where, I will put it that way, where -Lee stayed between the 19th of October 1962, when he left the Y, and -November 3, 1962, when they moved into the Elsbeth Street apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I know that he stayed part of the time, I'd say a good -portion of the time, at Mrs. Hall's. Now, whether he had another -residence I don't know. I know he spent a few evenings with my father. -If he spent a night there I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say he spent a few evenings with your father, I -infer from that--and if my inference is wrong please tell me--that -there were occasions when he stayed overnight in your father's home. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; not occasions. I think possibly one or two times. But -he would be over there evenings and they would talk. Then he would -leave. Now, where he went to I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But your recollection is that there were at least several -occasions in which he stayed overnight in your father's home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I am trying very hard to think of where he stayed. It -is such a very vague recollection, so vague it is barely there, that he -had a room. But I don't know where. - -Mr. JENNER. During this period? - -Mrs. GIBSON. During that period; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. From the 19th to the 3d? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; it is so vague but it is there, that he had a room -somewhere. Where I don't know. I just can't think. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that either you or your husband -ever went to visit him at some room? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; Gary possibly, but me, no. Gary might have picked him -up some place, but not me. I don't recall. It is just so vague and -maybe it is just because you think there was one that I say this. But I -feel that there was a room some place. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection that your stepmother gave you -at any time an address? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. At which Lee, a place where Lee was staying during this -period from October 19 to November 3? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't. She might have, but I have no recollection of -it whatsoever. But then we weren't on too tremendously good terms and I -might have just not even thought of what she said. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, it is your recollection that during this -period, October 19 through November 3, that Lee did stay a good portion -of the time at the Halls? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With Marina? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It seems to me that he had a place to live somewhere near -where he was working, somewhere easily accessible on foot, to where he -was working. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your former husband Gary's recollection, and he -seemed reasonably confident that you would recall the address. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No, no; no idea. Did Gary mention something about one -night we were in Oak Cliff and we were looking for some place. - -Mr. JENNER. He said you were looking for Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Is that what he said? And we went up and down and up -and down and we never found the place. I recall one evening, I don't -remember what we were looking for, but I recall this. - -Mr. JENNER. You were looking for Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Is that who we were looking for? - -Mr. JENNER. No; I---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know, I am not sure, but one evening Gary and I -were looking for some place, and I don't know where it was. But it was -in Oak Cliff. It was right over the river. And we went up and down and -back and forth for a good hour looking for this address. And I can't -think of where it was, and we never found it. I do remember that. We -never found it. - -Mr. JENNER. But it had something to do with Oswald? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think it did. I think it had to do with a room that he -had over there, but where it was, the address, I don't know. I never -knew Oak Cliff very well in the first place. - -Mr. JENNER. You say he was now employed and could afford a room? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; but I don't know where. I--we couldn't find it -wherever it was, because we looked. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did have an address at that time? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I had an address for something I was looking for. What -it was I don't know. If I was looking for him or if I was looking for -somebody else, if Gary was looking for somebody, I don't recall. But -it could possibly be that it was him that we were looking for. I don't -know how Gary thinks I can remember an address, though. I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you assisted Marina and Lee -to move into the Elsbeth Street apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. Weekend. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a weekend? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It seems reasonable that it would have been a weekend, -but then with Gary working as a cabdriver, I don't know if it was or -not, because he sometimes worked weekends. They were good days to work. -Saturday was very good. Was it a Sunday? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Wait a minute, it was a Saturday, the 3d of November -1962, was a Saturday. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Did we move him in on that day or did he start rent from -that day? - -Mr. JENNER. The advice of the landlord or manager of the building was -they moved in on the third, but do you recall that it was a weekend -rather than a weekday? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I wouldn't know. It could have been. It seems more logical -that it would have been a weekend. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about that from the beginning. What led up to -it, how you participated, the extent you participated with your husband? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when we were over in Fort Worth visiting Mrs. Hall, -we had taken Lee over there to see Marina, we told them we would help -them move when he found a place, and he came by one evening or---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. This then was after he had obtained a job? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. He either called or came by one evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion when you went over to -see them? - -Mrs. GIBSON. When we moved them or before, that other time? - -Mr. JENNER. That other time. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she was. - -Mr. JENNER. So this was subsequent to October 26? - -Mrs. GIBSON. And also we were over there to visit them also another -time after she had the accident, and I remember she was in bed. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after she went to the hospital? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was after, right after, when she came home and she was -still in bed. It was before she went to New York. - -Mr. JENNER. She came back on the 26th of October? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and we went over there and she was still in bed. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the occasion? Was he there? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the occasion when you told him that you would help -him move? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When he found a place? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe he said he was looking. And I believe---- - -Mr. JENNER. Lee was at the Halls' on that occasion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think we took him there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, he was not at the YMCA. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not staying at the Halls'? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; he came to our apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. So he must have been staying somewhere in Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he must have been. He came to our apartment. I don't -ever recall taking him back to any place in particular, or picking -him up at any place in particular. See, that is my problem. But I do -remember the visit when she was in bed, and we told them that we would -help them move. And I guess he must have called us or come to visit -us about moving, and we took our car and I think, I don't know if we -rented a trailer, I think they rented a trailer in Fort Worth, I am not -sure, and left it in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's get it sequentially. You left your apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee came to your apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the morning was it? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Morning or early afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you left your apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You, your husband, and Lee? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you go? - -Mrs. GIBSON. To drop the baby off. - -Mr. JENNER. Your baby? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With a sitter? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; to Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. GIBSON. From there we went to Fort Worth to Mrs. Hall's, and then -Lee and Gary went to rent a trailer, and I stayed with Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall home on that occasion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I guess she was in New York. So, they came -back with the trailer and we started to load up all the stuff, and -Alex---- - -Mr. JENNER. Kleinlerer? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Kleinlerer came by, I guess to supervise the moving, to -see that nothing was taken of Mrs. Hall's, and he watched us move and -we got all their stuff out, and we took them to their apartment in Oak -Cliff, Elsbeth apartment, to move them in there. By then it was early -evening, and then we left them there. We looked over the apartment and -we left them there. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband rented that trailer? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think Lee did; didn't he? I don't think Gary paid for -it. Did Gary pay for it? I can't imagine Gary paying for it. He might -have, but I don't see it. - -Mr. JENNER. Apart from that, did Lee thank you for spending the day? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Very briefly, thank you, and that was all. Marina was not -happy with the apartment at all. She said it was filthy dirty, it was a -pigsty and she didn't want to stay there. Lee said it could be fixed up. - -Mr. JENNER. What was their attitude toward each other on that occasion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. They were arguing. - -Mr. JENNER. During the day when you reached the Elsbeth Street -apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Not too much during the day but after she saw the -apartment she was very unhappy with it and they were arguing very much -when we left. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression she had not seen it? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe she had; no. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was a hole. It was terrible, very dirty, very badly -kept, really quite a slum. It had possibilities to be fixed up. It was -large, quite large, built very strangely, little rooms here and there, -lots of doors, lots of windows. The floor had big bumps in it, you -know. It was like the building had shifted and you walked up hill, you -know, to get from one side of the room to the other. It was not a nice -place; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a brick structure, wooden? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was brick outside, dark red brick. It was a small -apartment building. I think two stories, overrun with weeds and garbage -and people. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit the Oswald's in that apartment thereafter? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your husband did? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think he told me when I came back to Dallas in December -that he visited them once. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then that sometime after November 3, you left -Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I left Dallas the latter part of November. - -Mr. JENNER. And just to orient you, where did you go? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I went to Tucson, Ariz. - -Mr. JENNER. You were with your aunt? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I was by myself. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you lived in Tucson? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Before that, no; not really. I had been to boarding school -there a few years, and I lived in Tucson 1 year with my aunt in a house -that we rented, and her husband, but I had not lived in Tucson before -this. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's identify her. What was her name? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Tilton. - -Mr. JENNER. What was her full name? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Do you want her first name? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Nancy. - -Mr. JENNER. Nancy Tilton? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Nancy Sands Tilton. - -Mr. JENNER. And her married name? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Mrs. Charles Elliott Tilton III. - -Mr. JENNER. And in previous years you had as a young girl, even as a -child, lived with her; had you not? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a good many years? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; 14 years. - -Mr. JENNER. Fourteen years. Was that in Arizona or Florida? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was all around. I lived in Vermont in the summer, -Arizona in the winter, Florida sometimes. It depended. - -Mr. JENNER. Your aunt was a person of means I gather? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald -when you returned from Arizona? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure if it was then or if it was right before I -left. - -Mr. JENNER. Before you left for what? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Arizona. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. At the apartment. He came by to pick up a manuscript that -I had of his. - -Mr. JENNER. That is at your apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you a document that is in evidence in this -proceeding as Commission Exhibit No. 95. Would you examine that and -tell me whether that is the manuscript to which you have made reference -several times. - -Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it is. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances under which you first saw that -document and how it came into your possession? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I asked Lee if he had written anything on Russia that I -could read, if he had any material, and he said yes, he did; that he -had a manuscript that he had written on general life in Russia and I -asked him if I could read it and he said yes and he gave it to me. He -brought it over one evening. I have no idea of the date or the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it reasonably early in the course of your acquaintance -with the Oswalds? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was before they moved to Dallas, to Oak Cliff. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the manuscript with him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did. I told him he should publish it and he said -no, that it was not for people to read. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss its contents with him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; a little bit. I asked him questions about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you recall any of the inquiries you made of the -discussions you had with him regarding the substance of it? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I asked him, I believe on this manuscript that it -was said that you could not move from town to town. - -Mr. JENNER. In Russia? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and he was telling me why. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He said that the housing problem was so difficult there -that once you got an apartment or a room in one city, that you had -to wait in line in another city to get housing, therefore, you were -not allowed to leave from one city to another unless you already -had housing and a job. But for him it was easier because he was an -American, and I guess as he said they were trying to impress him a -little bit. - -Mr. JENNER. In that connection did he imply that he was free to move -about the country as he saw fit? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Freer than Russians I would imagine. He did imply that he -was freer than they were. - -Mr. JENNER. To move around? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say that he had at any time left Minsk to go -anywhere else? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I believe he had been to Moscow. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that in connection with his efforts to return to this -country? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I have no idea. I think it was just to see the countryside. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you look further through that manuscript and see if -your recollection is refreshed as to any other discussion you had with -him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, we talked a little bit about clothing and food. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a generalization. Tell me what you talked about. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he said that the Russian people were very impressed -with his clothing, that they did not have the quality or the style -that he had. Also the sparseness of fruits, vegetables there. He told -them about the supermarkets we had here and how plentiful fruit and -vegetables were, how expensive butter and everything was in Russia, -like that, your dairy products, aside from milk, butter, and cottage -cheese, and all these things were extremely expensive and, well, like -gold. Education we talked about, how much higher their educational -standards are. - -Mr. JENNER. Than ours? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say in that connection? - -Mrs. GIBSON. They are much higher, that everybody is trained there to -do something. That they have what would be considered, well, like your -elementary school, and after you finished this required, oh, I don't -know what it is, 8 or 9 years of school, you take this test, and if -you pass this test you are admitted into what is considered college. -If you don't pass it, you are able to choose a vocational school that -you can go to to train you in some vocation, oh, like bricklayers or -electricians or plumbers or something like this. You are allowed to -choose whatever you want. You hear, he said, that women are laying -streets, let's say, in Russia and he said that isn't because they are -made to but this is because what they have chosen to do, what they want -to do. That is about the general gist of what he had to say. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall something about a time when little June was -baptized? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, one evening there was a knock at the door and I went -to answer it and Mrs. Hall and Marina and June were outside, and Mrs. -Hall came in and told me that she had just brought Marina and June to -Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina and the baby come in the apartment, too? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall said this in the presence of Marina? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. She said that they brought the baby to Dallas to be -baptized without Lee knowing it because he would object, and that -Marina had been brought up in Russia with religion, although it was -against the law there, and that she wanted her child to be baptized, -and that Lee objected so strongly to it that she did it on the sly, -and she asked me please not to tell him. And she left a box of clothes -of his there for me that she had bought him. It was his birthday, I -believe, the next day. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee's birthday? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he was born on the 18th of October 1939, so -this was the occasion when he was living at the YMCA? - -Mrs. GIBSON. His birthday was the next day or something, or a couple of -days. - -Mr. JENNER. He was at the YMCA from the 15th through the 19th, 1962? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I am getting my days messed up, because I thought she -stayed with us while he was at the YMCA. She must not have. You know, -I can't place when she stayed with us. I can just place the period of -time that she stayed with us, you know, that it was not over 3 or 4 -days. - -Mr. JENNER. Could it have been right following his leaving the YMCA? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It possibly could have been. I really don't know. But like -I said, that is something I forgot. Now that you know his birthday, you -can place when she was baptized and when she brought this box to me. - -Mr. JENNER. She was baptized the day before his birthday? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure if it was the day before or 2 days or 3 -days, but it was real close to his birthday. - -Mr. JENNER. Real close? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The records indicate the baptism occurred on the 17th of -October, 1962. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Then it must have been the day before. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is the day before his birthday, but the occasion you -remember it was about his birthday time? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. They left a box of clothing or some gift? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, it had a shirt and a pair of sox and general things. - -Mr. JENNER. These were new? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Brand new. - -Mr. JENNER. A gift? - -Mrs. GIBSON. A gift; yes. From his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't it seem strange to you at that time with him at the -YMCA they didn't ring him up or go by the YMCA and leave this birthday -gift? - -Mrs. GIBSON. She didn't want him to know that she was in Dallas because -she didn't want him to know she had baptized the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee speak with you on that subject? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I guess it must have been the next day that he -dropped by and I gave him the box, and I didn't say anything about -this, but I think he had heard it. I think he had talked to Marina or -something on the telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. He became aware when he came by the next day, which would -be his birthday, that they had---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think she told him on the telephone that she had -baptized the baby, and he asked me if I knew, and I said yes, and he -said, "Why didn't you tell me?" And I said, that it was not any of my -business. - -Mr. JENNER. I am a little bit confused. He came by the next day, that -is the day after Mrs. Hall and Marina were there? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he came by to pick up his birthday gifts? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At that occasion you didn't say anything to him about the -baptism? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Therefore, at some subsequent occasion---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. After that---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There was a discussion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I think it was probably the day after that that he -dropped by and he asked me about this. He asked me if they had been -there, and I said yes. He says, "Why didn't you tell me?" - -Mr. JENNER. Why you didn't tell him what? - -Mrs. GIBSON. That they had been there and that the baby had been -baptized, and I said that it was none of my business. - -Mr. JENNER. The thing that confuses me a little bit is he came by and -picked up the birthday gift. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said about baptism. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. On that occasion. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No, no; I think he---- - -Mr. JENNER. Therefore, he must have known or inquired as to where you -got the birthday gift, correct? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't recall. I think I had some story fixed up for -that. Mrs. Hall, I think, told me to tell him that she had been by, or -something. I can't remember what it was, but she had some story, you -know, for how come I had that. - -Mr. JENNER. That would explain that, then. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I don't, you know, really remember what was said -exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. The day following that occasion---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. I did not tell him that I had seen Marina, though. - -Mr. JENNER. Is when he approached you on the subject? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the baptism and why you hadn't told him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I told him it was none of my business, and he wasn't too -happy about it. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say about the fact that June had been baptized? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Not too much. He wasn't really that upset about it. He -just said he didn't like the idea, but that was all. He wasn't terribly -upset about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Gibson, was he upset because the baby had been -baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church rather than the Lutheran -Church, for example? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; he was an atheist. He just didn't want anything to do -with religion. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband have discussions with him on the -subject of religion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what were his views on the subject of religion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't believe in it. He didn't believe in God. He -didn't believe in anything. - -Mr. JENNER. And did that discussion occur reasonably often, on more -than one occasion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, it was mentioned in with politics. You know how that -can get. The two subjects you are not supposed to talk about we talked -about probably the most. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression about any view or hope or desire -or ambition on his part of some future attainment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't really talk too much about in the future or what -he wanted to do. I don't know what he wanted to do with himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy ever mentioned in the course of the -discussions between your husband and Lee? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Never, never. He wasn't President at the time anyway, was -he? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; he was. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he was. He had just become President, hadn't he? No, -he was never mentioned. Now, the only person ever mentioned pertaining -to that was the Governor of Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. He became President in 1960. - -Mrs. GIBSON. It was the Governor of Texas who was mentioned mostly. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mrs. GIBSON. First you are going to have to tell me who the Governor -was. - -Mr. JENNER. Connally. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Connally. Wasn't that the one that---- - -Mr. JENNER. That had been Secretary of the Navy. - -Mrs. GIBSON. That had been Secretary of the Navy, was it? Well, for -some reason Lee just didn't like him. I don't know why, but he didn't -like him. - -Mr. JENNER. Would this refresh your recollection, that the subject -of Governor Connally arose in connection with something about Lee's -discharge from the Marines? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't recall. I just know Lee never spoke too much about -why he left the Marines or anything like that. I don't know. Maybe it -was a dishonorable discharge, I don't know. All I know is that it was -something he didn't talk about. And there was a reason why he did not -like Connally. - -Mr. JENNER. Whatever the reason was, he didn't articulate the reason -particularly? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; he just didn't like him. - -Mr. JENNER. But you have the definite impression he had an aversion to -Governor Connally? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; but he never ever said a word about Kennedy. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you answer? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your answer is yes? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That he did have a definite aversion? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. To Governor Connally as a person? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he speak of that reasonably frequently in these -discussions? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; not really, no. He didn't bring it up frequently. - -Mr. JENNER. But he was definite and affirmative about it, was he? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he didn't like him. - -Mr. JENNER. Was General Walker ever discussed? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No, no. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any discussions in these political arguments -between your husband Gary and Lee Oswald about, oh, the American Civil -Liberties Union, the Birch Society, people having, let's say, extreme -right viewpoints or left viewpoints? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Gary was quite a Democrat, and he disliked the Birch -Society intensely. So every once in a while they would come into the -conversation, being that Gary felt so personal about them. He didn't -like them at all. And Gary once in a while would make a comment, "Oh, -he is a Bircher," I can't name any particular person, but just somebody -in particular. - -I think Dallas is a fairly Republican city. No, there was nothing ever -about any of the different factions, or right or left wing. Just I know -Gary disliked the Birchers. As I recall, I don't think Lee had much -to say about them. I think maybe he liked more radical people than we -did, you know, the normal straight down the middle or conservative or -something. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you saw either of the Oswalds at -your father's home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when your father and your stepmother -brought either of the Oswalds to your apartment other than those you -have already testified about? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Not that I recall, no. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall seeing Oswald on the day before he moved into -the YMCA? He moved into the YMCA on Monday, October 15. Did you see him -the previous day, Sunday? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I really don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall taking him to the YMCA? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mrs. JENNER. On Monday, the 15th? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; we might have. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go and pick up Oswald at Mrs. Hall's when you took -him to the YMCA, or did he just come by your apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I can't remember where we picked him up, but I know we -didn't go to Fort Worth to pick him up, no. It could have been at the -bus station. - -Mr. JENNER. But you went somewhere to pick him up is your recollection? - -Mrs. GIBSON. We could have gone somewhere. He could have come to our -apartment. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. You were aware of Marina staying with the Halls? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her going to attend to Mrs. Hall; to do -that before she actually went to live with Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I might have heard something about it from my father. I -don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did not hear it from Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't know Mrs. Hall until I met her through Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. After Marina---- - -Mrs. GIBSON. When I went to visit there. - -Mr. JENNER. That is when you went to visit Marina while she was staying -at the Hall's? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; when Lee and Gary and I went over there. That is the -first time I ever met her. But she was very friendly because she knew -my father, you know, and so it was a very friendly atmosphere. - -Did Mrs. Hall give a fixed time of when Marina stayed with her? - -Mr. JENNER. I can't say it was a fixed time, but she testified that it -was before she had her automobile accident. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, what I am trying to fix in my mind is when Marina -stayed with me, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the 3 or 4 days? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I can't fix that in my mind at all now. I thought it -was when he was at the YMCA and then it couldn't have been because of -when the baby was baptized and when his birthday was. But it must have -been shortly before that, because it wasn't after that. So it must have -been before. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it wasn't on the 14th of October because you took him -to the YMCA on the 15th. Was Marina living with you then? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; not then, no. But she might have been shortly before -that. I believe she was at Mrs. Hall's then, wasn't she. Doesn't she -know where she was? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, she has got some impressions; yes. - -Mrs. GIBSON. I hope she does. - -Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out what you recall. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, you know, I can't recall when she was there. I know -when she wasn't there now more than I did before, from placing his -birthday and the box and that, I know she wasn't there then. - -Mr. JENNER. Wasn't where? - -Mrs. GIBSON. At my place. I know she wasn't there then, because she -came to visit me from Fort Worth with Mrs. Hall. But how long she had -been with Mrs. Hall must not have been too long. - -Mr. JENNER. The thing that bothers me, also, Mrs. Gibson, Mrs. Hall -entered the hospital on the 18th of October. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Lee's birthday. She was at your place the preceding -day? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was that night that she got in the accident. -That is why I said it was very shocking when I heard, you know, that -she had been in an accident. - -Mr. JENNER. And at the time she had her accident, Marina was living -with the Halls'? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was living at Mrs. Hall's home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband Gary recalls that while Lee was at the YMCA, -that he came to visit at your home. - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is possible. - -Mr. JENNER. And his recollection was that Marina was with you at that -time. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, she couldn't have been. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Could it be that she stayed with you for a few -days after he left the YMCA and before they moved into the Elsbeth -Street home or apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I don't know how it could be possible, because when -we moved her from Fort Worth, she was at Mrs. Hall's. Now whether she -stayed with me while Mrs. Hall was in New York, she couldn't have -because she was, Mrs. Hall was in New York when we moved Marina, see, -and Marina was there. - -Now, I suppose it is possible that she stayed with us, then, but I -remember she stayed with Mrs. Hall after the accident because Mrs. Hall -needed her. She couldn't get around. I know she was there before the -accident because of the baptism and Lee's birthday. So it leads me to -believe she was there the whole time, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when the Oswalds left the Mercedes Street -apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know when they left that. They moved, from -there they moved all her stuff to Mrs. Hall's. - -Mr. JENNER. Right from the Mercedes apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I guess they must have. All the stuff was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when your father moved Marina and -the baby from the Elsbeth Street apartment to Mrs. Meller's? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the Oswalds living at 214 Neely Street? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Where was that? - -Mr. JENNER. That is just about a block from the Elsbeth Street -apartment, which they moved into from the Elsbeth Street apartment. - -Mrs. GIBSON. That must have been after I left. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; it was. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You just don't recall anything about that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wasn't there. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you do recall Marina staying 3 or 4 days. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you grasp in your recollection why? What led up to that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was the period before she went to Mrs. Hall's. -It must have been after Lee lost his job, or quit. - -Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; and before he got the new one. It must have been -then. And I think it was while they were trying to find her a place to -live, while he was job hunting. - -Mr. JENNER. And before he got his job with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been. - -Mr. JENNER. On the 12th of October? You see that is a 4-day period, -Mrs. Gibson. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Between when he lost his job and got his job? - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. - -Mrs. GIBSON. That is probably where she stayed then. I am not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. The last day he worked at Leslie Welding was the -8th of October 1962. He became employed and went to work for -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall on the 12th of October 1962. - -Mrs. GIBSON. That probably was when she stayed with us, then. I just -don't have any recollection of when it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection that she came to stay with -you, the reason why? Was she having difficulty with Oswald? Was that -the reason, or was it because he was out of work? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was because he was out of work. I don't think -they had any money. I think my father lent them money, didn't he? I -don't know. Somebody must have given them money. It was Bouhe, that is -who it was who lent them money. - -Mr. JENNER. It was only 4 days, Mrs. Gibson. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; but he had to have money to get started. He had to -have money to stay at the YMCA. He had to have money to get started, -and I know who gave him money. George Bouhe did. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; George Bouhe did, there is no question about that. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Because I recall that. He gave him money, and he also had -the debt to pay to the American Embassy. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to where Oswald stayed -prior to the time that he went to the YMCA on the 15th of October, that -is between the 8th of October and the 15th of October? That is a week. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; all I know is he never did stay at our place overnight -ever. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when you were looking for this address, was -it an address on North Beckley? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It is possible that it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that stimulate your recollection at all? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; it doesn't. I just know that Beckley is near the river. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were looking in the area. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Near the river; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, between the 19th of October and the 3d of November, -which was the day you picked up Oswald and Marina and the baby and took -them to the Elsbeth Street apartment, do you know where Oswald was -staying? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; but it was probably in that area where I was looking, -you know. I am not even sure who I was looking for, but it seems -possible. I don't know anybody else in Oak Cliff, you know. If that -is anywhere near the Jaggars Co., and I think it is, that is probably -where, and who we were looking for. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina taken to the dentist to your knowledge other -than the first period, the first visit in August of 1962? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think she might have had another appointment. That -possibly could have been the other reason why she stayed with me, but I -am not positive. It seems to me you know by the dentist records if she -had. I remember she had teeth pulled. Now, how many--and, as I recall, -those first appointments led to a later appointment after her mouth had -healed. But I am not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina stay at the Halls' on more than one occasion, -that is periods? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it just one period? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think it was one period. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it have anything to do with Mrs. Hall's accident? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Why Marina stayed there, you mean, or why she left? - -Mr. JENNER. Why she went there in the first instance. - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; Mrs. Hall had not had her accident when Marina first -moved in. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Hall aware that Marina had stayed at your home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think so. In fact, I could almost say positively she -must have been aware of it. - -Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I mean she never knew that Marina and I knew each -other. She brought her to my place. I had told her that, I believe I -myself, told her that Marina had stayed with me. I mean it is just in -common conversation that she must have known. Didn't she know? - -Mr. JENNER. Including this 3- or 4-day period? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; she must have known because that was before Marina -stayed with her. Does she know? - -Mr. JENNER. She didn't mention it in her testimony. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Am I the last one to testify? - -Mr. JENNER. No. Mrs. Gibson, were you aware that Lee Oswald gave your -apartment address and your telephone number--when I say your I mean you -and your husband--when he was seeking employment in Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he asked Gary's permission and Gary said all right. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in your presence? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that permission requested before he went to the YMCA on -the 15th of October? He obtained his job at Jaggars, remember, on the -12th of October. - -Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it was before. He said he needed to establish a -residence, and a place where people could get in touch with him, where -if there were any jobs coming up that they could get in touch with him -and call him and he would check with us and we would tell him if there -had been any calls for him or messages during the day. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, were there any calls or messages? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; not that I recall. I don't believe there were. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him looking for work during this period? -That would be the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th of October. - -Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know. If he had a job, it doesn't seem that -he would be looking for a job. - -Mr. JENNER. He was at the Texas Employment Commission on the 9th, 10th, -and 11th. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Then probably he was. And if he gave our address and our -phone number; I am sure he was. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall where he was staying during that -period? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Could he have been staying at Hall's? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Gee, it is possible, but I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall that he did stay at the Hall's a good -deal or portions of the time that Marina was there? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he went there weekends, as I recall, when he was -working. He spent the weekends there. - -Mr. JENNER. When he was working at Jaggars? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So when he began to work at Jaggars, which was the 12th -of October, up to the 3d of November when you and your husband, Mr. -Taylor, took the Oswalds to the Elsbeth Street apartment, he visited at -the Hall's on weekends? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So there was some place he was staying then himself during -that period? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; there must have been. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Hall live in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And Fort Worth is approximately 30 miles? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. From Dallas, isn't it? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't stay in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. He stayed in Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you can't recall still where he stayed in Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I have no idea. - -Mr. JENNER. But it is now your definite recollection that he did stay -in Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I know that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--after he became employed at Jaggars? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I will tell you why. Because he told us that he goes -by bus Friday night or something to Fort Worth and he'd come back -Sunday evening. So it would be my normal assumption, I would say, that -he was staying in Dallas at the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you and your father had some difficulty, some spats -between the two of you along about this time? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; we had been spatting all our life. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean were you on speaking terms? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say so. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at least one occasion when you picked up -Oswald in front of the YMCA? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. That your husband Gary would go over and pick him up? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. - -Mr. JENNER. Bring him to your apartment? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so, or he'd walk. I don't know. I don't believe -Gary picked him up there. I believe he walked or took the bus. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you recall with respect to Lee's habits of -temperance or intemperance, drinking? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I never saw him take a drink. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he smoke? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't think he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke? - -Mrs. GIBSON. On the sly. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Because he objected to smoking, as I recall. He did. He -didn't like to see her smoke, and he didn't like to see her wear any -makeup. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any discussions respecting that occur at your home? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; she told me this. Don't ask me how. We just got it -across to each other, you know. - -Mr. JENNER. How did she communicate with you? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when two people get together, if you try hard enough -you will get your idea across. If you have a dictionary and two hands, -you will get the idea across, and that is how we managed to, you know, -get our ideas fairly well across most of the time. But we didn't make -too great an attempt at speaking because it was so much effort. But I -do know this about makeup and smoking. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there arguments between them on the subject? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, I'd say maybe small ones. He didn't like her to wear -lipstick and she liked to, things like that. She did like to smoke. - -Mr. JENNER. What about his reading habits? - -Mrs. GIBSON. He read a lot. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? - -Mrs. GIBSON. My father had given him books to read. He was very much -interested in them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have them with him at times when he was at your -place? - -Mrs. GIBSON. One book I think he gave me that my father had asked him -to give me or I gave him that my father had asked him to give me, one -way or the other, it was called "Animal Farm." - -Mr. JENNER. What is that book about? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It is a satire, I guess. It is about animals, but it is a -takeoff on people. Orwell--did he write it? - -Mr. JENNER. I think so. What is your recollection as to whether you -gave Oswald that book to read or whether your father gave it to him to -read? - -Mrs. GIBSON. One way or the other it got to me. Either my father gave -it to me to read and I gave it to Lee or he gave it to Lee to read and -then Lee gave it to me. It was one way or the other. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember any other books? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think my father gave him some literature. I don't know -what it was, though. Oh, "1984" was another book that he read. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate that he had read it before? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I believe that he had. That was by Orwell, too, wasn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; it was. Did he indicate that he had read "1984" when -he was a Marine at El Toro, Calif.? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think he read it again. My father had it and my -father read it, and I think Lee said he wanted to read it again. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss that book in your presence? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall as to the titles of books he read? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think he read the "Rise and the Fall of the Third -Reich." He read Hitler's, what would it be, autobiography? - -Mr. JENNER. "Mein Kampf"? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he read the Marx book--what was that, was that the -Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? No; what was it, about Marxism? - -Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know what it was, but anyway, he read a book -that Marx wrote on Marxism, and that is about all I can recall on his -literature. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some people or a person whose first name was -Natasha or Evalina? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I know Natasha. - -Mr. JENNER. How did Natasha come into this? - -Mrs. GIBSON. First you will have to give me her last name so I am sure -I have got the right one. - -Mr. JENNER. I can't give it to you. - -Mrs. GIBSON. You don't have it? - -Mr. JENNER. I can't because I don't know. - -Mrs. GIBSON. You can't because you don't have it? Really? - -Mr. JENNER. Really. - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, Natasha was a friend of my parents. They got in some -numerous squabbles and sometimes they'd part. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she a single lady? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; she has a husband. - -Mr. JENNER. They lived in Dallas? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; they are Russian. I can't think of her last name for -the life of me. Now, I don't know if Natasha knew Lee or not. Natasha -was a friend of my father and Jeanne. They got in numerous squabbles. -Their friendship would break off and then they'd come back together -again after a few months after the squabble had quieted down. Now, -whether she knew Lee or not, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that in one of your interviews, and my query -of you is what led you to mention that, Natasha? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, being that she was one of the Russian colony I -figured probably she would know them. That is all. - -Mr. JENNER. You were speculating? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Speculating; that is all. Whether she did or not, I have -no idea. - -Mr. JENNER. In one of your interviews you stated that after Marina had -stayed with you, she had moved into the Hall's. Does that refresh your -recollection that that 3- or 4-day period was immediately preceding her -moving into the Hall's? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. When all those questions were given to me, I didn't -have much time to think. It was completely by surprise. And when I said -that, I meant the first day, because as you found out, those days that -I am talking about are extremely vague. Why I don't know, but they are -very vague. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether possibly Oswald stayed with his -mother in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Maybe. - -Mr. JENNER. In this period, say, from October 19 through November 3? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe he did, because he had to be in -Dallas. He couldn't commute to Dallas every day. Does his mother say -this? - -Mr. JENNER. No. Do you have any recollection that Oswald stayed in the -Elsbeth Street apartment before Marina was moved in? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur as to whether Oswald had renounced -or attempted to renounce his American citizenship? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject even discussed? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it was when he told us about how, you know, the -Russians wanted him to give it up. - -Mr. JENNER. And he declined to? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina politically minded? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wouldn't say so. - -Mr. JENNER. But she was religious? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say she was. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald as to his intellect? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think he was very intelligent. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he articulate? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what about his argumentation? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Very good. He could make almost anybody believe what he -was saying. - -Mr. JENNER. He was strong in his convictions? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Unbending? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of whether he was quick-tempered -or prone to violence? - -Mrs. GIBSON. I think he was very quick tempered. - -Mr. JENNER. He flared up, did he, during these arguments? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And other things, with your husband? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No; not with my husband. With his wife. He got disgusted, -I think, with our stupidity, as he called it, which used to infuriate -me. I don't particularly like being called stupid, and he used to call -us stupid a lot. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that because you differed in your view? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Differed with him. - -Mr. JENNER. From him? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that was his favorite word, we were stupid, we -weren't using our brains. He'd come up with something like, "How could -you possibly say such a thing?" - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick him up at the Jaggars place of business? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Your father and your stepmother now reside in Haiti? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When did they go to Haiti? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Last year some time. - -Mr. JENNER. June of 1963. - -Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your father or your stepmother since then? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I saw them a couple of weeks ago. - -Mr. JENNER. When they were here to testify, they dropped by to see you, -did they? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband Donald Gibson is a native-born American? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In an interview on December 3, 1963, you are reported -to have said that Lee Oswald occasionally came to your apartment, -of yourself and your husband, and although Marina stayed at your -apartment, only about 2 weeks, Oswald continued to visit on occasions. -Does that refresh your recollection that this stay of Marina at your -home was longer than 3 to 4 days? - -Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been misunderstood. If I had said 2 weeks -I must have meant in all, meaning putting all your days together, -because I never would have said 2 weeks meaning a solid period of time -of 2 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. I think that is about all. I neglected to do this, Mrs. -Gibson. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, did you not? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. General counsel for the Commission, with which he enclosed -a copy of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the -creation of this Commission? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. A copy of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130 -which created the Commission? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And fixed its scope and its powers and its duties and -responsibilities, which in general are to investigate the circumstances -surrounding leading up to, and involving the assassination of President -John Fitzgerald Kennedy? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations of the -Commission under which depositions are taken? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you understand from all those papers that the -Commission is interviewing people who had, fortunately, or -unfortunately, touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald and others? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And we had understood and as has now been revealed you did -have a connection with or some connection with the Oswalds? - -Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you have now elucidated. - -I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff of -the Commission, and Mr. Mosk, who was present earlier, likewise is a -member. Now, having in mind the objects and purposes and duties of -the Commission, is there anything that occurs to you that you would -like to add that you think would be helpful to the Commission in its -investigation of this subject? - -Mrs. GIBSON. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, that is all I have, and I appreciate very much -your coming here today. I know it is a considerable inconvenience. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF RUTH HYDE PAINE - -The following affidavit was executed by Ruth Hyde Paine on June 24, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -Ruth Hyde Paine, being affirmed, says: - -1. I reside at 2515 West 5th Street, Irving, Texas. I am the Ruth Hyde -Paine who testified before the Commission on March 18, 19 and 20, 1964, -and gave testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. at the offices of -the Commission on Saturday, March 21, 1964, and gave further testimony -by deposition in my home the evening of Monday, March 23, 1964. - -2. On the occasion of Saturday, November 9, 1963, about which I -testified before the Commission, when I took Marina and Lee Oswald in -my station wagon to the Texas Automobile Drivers Bureau Station in -the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, Texas, to enable Lee Oswald to make -application for an automobile driver's learner's permit, each of my two -children and both of the Oswald children, June and Rachel, accompanied -us. - -3. Upon our arrival at the Automobile Drivers License Bureau, which -was located in a shopping center area in Oak Cliff, we discovered -that the Automobile Drivers License Bureau was closed. All of us went -down the street to a ten cent store which was located approximately -three doors down the street from the Automobile Drivers License Bureau -Station. We entered the store. I purchased some child panties for my -children and Marina selected and Lee paid for an infant's pacifier. - -4. After we made the purchases, all of us returned to my station wagon, -entered it, and I drove directly to my home in Irving, Texas. Upon -arrival there, all of us entered my home where we remained throughout -the balance of that day and evening. Marina and Lee Oswald and their -children were present in my home throughout the two following days and -evenings, November 10 and 11, 1963. Lee Oswald returned to his work at -the Texas School Book Depository Tuesday morning, November 12, 1963. I -was present in my home throughout November 10 and 11, 1963, except as -described in paragraph 13. - -5. During the course of my testimony by deposition in Washington, D.C. -on Saturday, March 21, 1964, Mr. Jenner examined me with respect to the -various entries in my calendar diary, Commission Exhibit No. 401, for -the period commencing and following September 24, 1963, including, in -particular, those entries respecting baby and child clinic appointments -for June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, in clinics in Irving, Texas, and -in Dallas, Texas, as well as other appointments for June Oswald. On -all occasions following Marina's return to my home from Parkland -Hospital on October 22, 1963, following the birth of her daughter -Rachel on October 20, 1963, when baby clinic, dental and other medical -and physical attention appointments for either of Marina's children -were made, and about which I have heretofore testified, I drove to -the clinic or doctor's office in my station wagon accompanied by each -of my children and by Marina and both of her children. This was so -irrespective of which of Marina's children was to receive medical or -other attention. - -6. There were a number of occasions subsequent to September 24, 1963, -on which Marina and both of her children accompanied me when I drove in -my station wagon to shops, grocery stores, etc., in and about Irving, -Texas, to do limited shopping or purchase food stuffs. On each of these -occasions, we were also accompanied by my children. Understandably, -Marina desired "to get out of the house" and visit with me around -Irving, Texas, when convenient to me. I understood this and often went -out of my way to invite her to come with me. She always brought her -daughter June and after the birth of her daughter Rachel, also brought -her. - -7. On none of the above occasions did we shop in or visit or enter -any furniture store. This includes the Furniture Mart, a store that -was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas, which I now -understand was owned and operated during its existence by one Edith -Whitworth. - -8. There were only two occasions during all the period in the Fall of -1963 that I took Marina and Lee together in my station wagon to Dallas, -Texas, or anywhere in Irving, Texas. One occasion was a trip to Dallas, -Texas, the morning of November 9, 1963, which I have mentioned above. -(The other is described in paragraph 14.) I do not know Mrs. Whitworth. -I never visited her place of business, nor did I ever drive Lee Oswald -or Marina to that place of business; and, to the best of my knowledge -and recollection, Marina was never at or in that place of business with -or without Lee Oswald during the period she resided in my home in the -Fall of 1963. - -9. At no time after Marina and I and our children arrived in Irving, -Texas, on September 24, 1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana, did I ever -take Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald to the Irving Sports Shop, which is -located at 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Texas. I was quite aware -during all of this period of Marina's activities and where she was. I -know of no occasion when either she or Lee Oswald visited either the -Furniture Mart or the Irving Sports Shop. - -10. There was no occasion during the period Marina resided with me in -the Fall of 1963, of which I was aware or now recollect, that Marina -rode either in my station wagon or any other automobile or means of -conveyance with Lee Oswald at the wheel. Neither the Irving Sports Shop -nor Mrs. Whitworth nor Dyal Ryder was ever mentioned in my presence by -either of the Oswalds. - -11. I never drove Lee Oswald, with or without Marina, to any area or -place in or about either Dallas, Fort Worth, or Irving, Texas, to -enable Lee Oswald to engage in rifle practice. I did not know until the -afternoon of November 22, 1963, that he possessed or owned a firearm -of any kind or character. At no time prior to November 25, 1963, did I -know or had I heard of anybody by the name of Dyal Ryder. - -12. Lee Oswald was not in my home and to the best of my knowledge -was not in Irving, Texas, at any time on November 6 or 7, 1963. My -recollection is clear that on each of those days, as well as November -8, 1963, Marina and her two children, June and Rachel, were present -in my home day and night. Lee Oswald arrived at my home from Dallas, -Texas, between 5:30 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. on November 8, 1963, for his -customary week-end visit, which as to this particular week-end was to -extend over through Armistice Day, November 11, 1963. Except for the -trip to Dallas, Texas, on November 9, 1963, which I have described -above, Lee Oswald remained in my home from the time of his arrival, -the late afternoon of November 8, 1963, until he departed for Dallas, -Texas, in the early morning of November 12, 1963. - -13. I was not present in my home for part of the day on November 11, -1963. As I testified, I made a trip that day, which was Armistice -Day and a holiday, to Dallas, Texas. I was gone from approximately -9:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. Not wishing to burden Lee and Marina with my -children, I had them stay at my neighbors the Craigs. Marina and Lee -Oswald and their children were in my home when I left and were there -when I returned. Based upon my conversation with Marina and Lee Oswald, -and my understanding of their plans for the day, it is my clear opinion -that all of them remained in my home during my trip to and from Dallas. - -14. There was one occasion in addition to the occasion of Nov. 9, 1963, -which I have described above, that I drove Marina and Lee in my station -wagon to Dallas, Texas. On Monday, October 14, which was the day before -Lee Oswald obtained a position at the Texas School Book Depository, -I drove him to Dallas, Texas. We were accompanied by Marina and her -child June as well as by my children. I testified about this event. We -left Lee Oswald off in Dallas at Ross Avenue near LaMarr. I then took -my typewriter to a shop in Dallas for repair and Marina and I and our -children returned to Irving, Texas. - -Signed this 24th day of June 1964. - - (S) Ruth Hyde Paine, - RUTH HYDE PAINE. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF M. WALDO GEORGE - -The following affidavit was executed by M. Waldo George on June 12, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -M. Waldo George, 6769 Inverness Street, Dallas, being duly sworn says: - -1. I am the office manager of Tucker Manning Insurance Company. I -am the owner of the premises at 214 Neeley Street, Dallas, Texas, -consisting of two apartments, one upper and one lower. In the latter -part of January 1963 the upper apartment became vacant and I posted it -"For Rent" by means of an appropriate sign in the yard in front of the -premises. - -2. On March 2, 1963, I was advised by Mrs. George that an individual by -the name of "Oswald" had inquired about renting the apartment. Later -that day I met the individual who identified himself as Lee H. Oswald. -I advised him that the rent for the apartment was $60 per month, and he -rented the apartment on a month-to-month basis, paying me $60 in cash -for one month's rent in advance. - -3. On April 1, 1963, I collected $60 in cash from Oswald, covering rent -for the month of April 1963 to and including May 2, 1963. - -4. Shortly after this occasion the downstairs tenants, Mr. and Mrs. -George B. Gray, called me and informed me that the man in the upstairs -apartment was beating his wife. I made no inquiry into this subject -matter. - -5. Two or three days later, myself and Mrs. George called on the -Oswalds in their apartment and invited them to attend Gaston Avenue -Baptist Church with us. He informed me and Mrs. George that he attended -the Russian Orthodox Church although they were not regular in their -attendance, because they had to depend on their friends to take them. - -6. During this visit Oswald stated that he had met his wife while he -was serving in the United States Marines as a guard at the United -States Embassy in Russia, and had married his wife in Russia. I made -direct inquiry of him as to whether he had had any difficulty in -getting out of Russia with his wife and he said that he had had no -difficulty whatsoever. - -7. Neither myself or Mrs. George saw Oswald again at any time -thereafter. Oswald did not pay rent for the succeeding rental period -of May 2 through June 2, 1963. Because my attention was diverted by -other matters, I did not go by the apartment to collect the rent for -that period until several days after May 2, 1963. When I arrived at the -apartment I found it vacant. - -Signed this 12th day of June 1964 at Dallas Texas. - - (S) M. Waldo George, - M. WALDO GEORGE. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM KIRK STUCKEY - -The testimony of William Kirk Stuckey was taken at 9:35 a.m., on June -6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. -Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, in your deposition which you are about to -give? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Be seated. State your full name? - -Mr. STUCKEY. William Kirk Stuckey. - -Mr. JENNER. I regret, Mr. Stuckey, that we have to inconvenience you -to have you back to have your deposition taken again. But through some -happenstance in New Orleans, the transcript of your deposition never -went beyond the U.S. attorney's office apparently, and we appreciate -your willingness to come up here and be with us today so that I can -depose you again. When I took your deposition before you had received a -letter from Mr. Rankin, had you not? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I guess I called you when I was down there, didn't I? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And I explained to you at that time, the time before when -I took your deposition, however, the legislation under which the -Commission was authorized and the Executive order of the President -creating the Commission and the rules and regulations of the Commission -on the taking of depositions? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I understand that. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. In effect, we want to inquire of you in -particular with respect to the course of events in which you -interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald while he was in New Orleans in 1963 at -some radio broadcasts which you, in your professional capacity, that -is, your professional business, had organized, had put on, and you had -some fairly extended acquaintance with Oswald in a professional sense. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Would you like me to tell you from the very first? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I think for the very first, for the purpose of the -record, identify yourself, who you were then and who you are now, and -your profession and business and associations. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Fine. At present I am employed at Tulane University as -a special writer. In this capacity I write a syndicated column on -higher education which Tulane distributes to 85 newspapers throughout -the country. In August 1963 I was a broadcaster with WDSU Radio, New -Orleans. This is the NBC station. I had a weekly 5-minute radio -program on economic and political developments in Latin America. I had -been in this particular specialty for about 2 years previous. Prior to -that I was a columnist with New Orleans States Item, with an interest -in Latin America. As a result I had been looking for a long time for -representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in that area. - -Mr. JENNER. If you would excuse me a second, would you give me your -formal education because, as I recall in taking your deposition in New -Orleans, you acquired some interest in South American relations which -led you into looking for something on this Fair Play for Cuba Committee. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Formal education was a B.S. degree in journalism -from Southern Methodist University in Dallas. After graduation I went -into the Marine Corps and completed 2 years of service, after which I -spent some 8 months in Central America and Mexico traveling around, -essentially hitchhiking, some walking, some third-class bus riding, -in which I acquired a good deal of Spanish and an interest in the -countries. - -Mr. JENNER. What is a third-class bus? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is where the goats and chickens aren't on top; they -are in there with you. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. STUCKEY. After I returned I went into the newspaper business. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, how old are you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Thirty-two. - -Mr. JENNER. You are married? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family and you live in New Orleans? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your address? - -Mr. STUCKEY. 2317 State Street, and I have two children. I went into -the newspaper business after returning from Latin America, working -largely as a political reporter for a number of years. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you giving attention to any particular phase of -politics? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Local government? - -Mr. JENNER. Thinking of it in the higher sense--local government. - -Mr. STUCKEY. You mean in a higher sense, in a subject category? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. I was interested particularly in planning and zoning. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you acquire also an interest in South American -relations? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; well, I had this interest, but I had no opportunity -to exercise this interest in my work until the New Orleans States -Item made me a columnist. This was in February 1962 when I started my -column, and this extended on until April, I believe it was, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the title of that column? - -Mr. STUCKEY. New Orleans and the Americas. That was really my first -professional involvement in Latin American affairs. After I left the -paper, doing public relations, I acquired this radio program, this -radio broadcast, which was a very short thing. It was largely to keep -my name in front of the public in this capacity. And---- - -Mr. JENNER. That was a broadcast program? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It was put on regularly, was it? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Once a week. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is the NBC station down there? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Radio and television or just radio? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Radio. - -Mr. JENNER. That program had a title? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; Latin Listening Post. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us in general the character of that program and to -what you were directing your attention. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Politics and economics. I inquired a bit about the Cuban -situation. I had a number of programs that I think you would classify -as news features. They didn't particularly have current events value, -but they were interesting topics, and I just went and talked about -them. I talked about social welfare programs in Uruguay, the Mexican -Revolution; Central American common market; the character of the Latin -American university student, this sort of thing. - -Occasionally, when I had a live one, when I heard there was somebody -in town who was a Latin bigwig, I would bring him on and we would talk -whatever he wanted to talk about. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you organize those programs? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any preliminary discussions with the people -you were going to have on your programs? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes; sometimes I took up to 3 to 4 days to prepare a -5-minute broadcast. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Actually it is 5 minutes which demands about 700 words, -which was just about as long or longer than the column that I used to -write, so these columns, 700 words, which would run about a column and -a half of type in the paper, consumed within a 5-minute period on the -broadcast. Anything else along that line? - -Mr. JENNER. I think that covers it generally. Tell us the nature of -your work with Tulane University. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You became associated with Tulane when? - -Mr. STUCKEY. In January, January 6. - -Mr. JENNER. Of this year? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of that work? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I write a syndicated column on higher education. The -column is called Dimension in Education. We deal with all manner of -events and affairs affecting higher education, and sometimes things -that do not affect higher education. I roam the spectrum of interest in -the things. It is extremely interesting. - -I sometimes write about such things as the Common Market, the -humanities versus science, all this sort of thing, all the current -controversies we get into. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that in the nature of public relations work? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; very soft shell public relations. Sometimes we don't -even mention Tulane. It is just that I think probably Tulane just wants -to be established as a fount of wisdom in this particular field, and -that is why they print these reports. - -Mr. JENNER. During the year 1963, did an event occur, a series of -events occur, in which you became acquainted with a man by the name of -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In your own words, taking it from the very first instant of -the course of events, perhaps even before you met this man, tell us in -your own words, and it doesn't have to be chronological, but the way -you would put it out, about it. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Fine. As I told you before, as a Latin American columnist -and one interested in affairs, I had been looking for some time in New -Orleans for representatives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. There -haven't been any. Most of the organizations that I had contact with in -my work---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--how did you learn about the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I was going to get to that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Most of the organizations that I had contact with were -refugee organizations, very violently anti-Castro groups, and there -were a number of them in New Orleans. These people were news sources -for me also. I used them quite frequently. One day, I think it was -in August, the latter part of July of 1963, I was in the bank, and I -ran across a refugee friend of mine by the name of Carlos Bringuier. -Bringuier told me---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--identify Mr. Bringuier. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Mr. Bringuier at that time was the New Orleans delegate to -the Revolutionary Student Directorate which was an anti-Castro group -with headquarters in Miami. He also ran a clothing store called Casa -Roca. He was an attorney in Havana before the Revolution, the Cuban -Revolution of 1958, and had been very active ever since I had known -him in New Orleans in anti-Castro activity. I had interviewed him on -a number of occasions in connection with Cuban current events. Mr. -Bringuier ran into me in the bank, and I spoke to him and he said that -a representative of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had appeared in -New Orleans and that he had had an encounter with him shortly before. - -Mr. JENNER. That interested you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, very much, very much, because I knew something of the -reputation of this group. I regarded them as being about the leading -pro-Castro organization in this country, a propaganda organ for the -Castro forces, and I had done a considerable amount of reading of -congressional testimony, articles, and this sort of thing about their -activities. Mr. Bringuier said he had had an encounter with a young man -who was representing the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--you had known Bringuier and you had had contact -with him; had he ever been on your program up to this moment that you -speak of? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; he had never been on my program, but, as a -newspaperman, I had contacted him quite frequently for information. - -Mr. JENNER. Proceed. - -Mr. STUCKEY. He told me that--this is in the bank--a few days before, I -don't recall exactly---- - -Mr. JENNER. This was a chance meeting? - -Mr. STUCKEY. This was a chance meeting with Mr. Bringuier. I was -cashing my paycheck and Bringuier told me a few days before he had -run into this fellow in his store, this Casa Roca--this young man had -approached him. - -Mr. JENNER. A young man had come in? - -Mr. STUCKEY. A young man. At the time he had mentioned no name. If he -had, it wouldn't have made any difference to me because the name meant -nothing. - -He said a young man came in, introduced himself and said he was a -veteran of the Marine Corps, he had just gotten out, and that he was -very disturbed by this Cuban situation and he wanted to do something -about hurting Castro, or trying to change the regime. He, in some -way---- - -Mr. JENNER. This was something this up-to-the-moment unnamed young man -had said to Mr. Bringuier? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Had said to Mr. Bringuier as Bringuier recounted it to me -later. I am telling you Bringuier's story now. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wanted to make clear that you were. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Right. Now, this young man said somehow he knew Bringuier -was connected with the Revolutionary Student Directorate, how, I don't -know. But, at any rate, as I said, he offered his services. - -Then he presented a Marine Corps Handbook to Bringuier. He said, "This -might help you out in your guerrilla activities and such. This is my -own personal Marine Corps Handbook", which Bringuier accepted. That -was the gist of the conversation. Bringuier told me that sometime -after that, I don't recall exactly how long it was, he was walking -on Canal Street, the main street of New Orleans, about a block away -from his store, and he ran into this young man again. This time he was -distributing literature, handbills, and the handbills said, "Hands -Off Cuba", and on the handbill it said, "Join the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee in New Orleans, Charter Member Branch". - -It was this same young man. Bringuier, who was a rather excitable -fellow, and he couldn't understand why this fellow was now distributing -pro-Castro literature whereas a short time before he had posed as an -anti-Castro man. So Bringuier got into a shouting match with him on the -street corner, and I think some blows were exchanged, I am not sure. - -Mr. JENNER. Bringuier is again telling you this? - -Mr. STUCKEY. This is what Bringuier is telling me, because I did not -witness this. At any rate, regardless of what happened, I don't know -the exact sequence of events, the police arrived on the scene and took -everybody down to the jail. Oswald was booked for disturbing the peace, -and I think later fined $10, and let go. Well, this is what Bringuier -told me in the bank. - -Mr. JENNER. I may assume up to this moment you had not seen anything in -the newspapers on this subject? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; I hadn't. There wouldn't have been anything in the -newspaper had it not been in my column, and my column at that time did -not exist. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. STUCKEY. So I mentioned to Bringuier that I was interested in -locating this fellow and talking to him. Bringuier gave me his name. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that this was the early part of August? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Or the latter part of July, I am not really sure. It -wasn't--I would say probably the early part of August. It was a Friday. -I can tell you that. - -Mr. JENNER. It was August 9, 1963. - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is quite possible. So I inquired as to the name and -the address of this fellow, and telephone, if any, and Bringuier said -his name was Lee Oswald, and he lived on Magazine Street, somewhere in -the 4000 block, I forget the exact address, and he had no telephone. -This was a Friday. My program is on a Saturday. - -I decided that early the next morning I would go by this address -and ask Oswald if he would appear on my program. So very early, it -was about 8 o'clock the following--wait a minute, I am losing some -chronology. This was not the next Saturday. Then some time elapsed, -and, at any rate, it was August 17 when I went by his house. I forget -now exactly why this time did elapse, but it did. - -Mr. JENNER. Had he again distributed handbills? - -Mr. STUCKEY. To my knowledge; no. He may have. He may have. But, of -course, I had no particular interest in it, and the papers were not -carrying stories about it, and I, well, just had no contact with him at -all. - -I did not meet him until August 17, at which time I went by his house -on Magazine Street to ask him to appear on my program. This was early -in the morning, about 8 o'clock. I went early because I wanted to get -him before he left. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a Saturday? - -Mr. STUCKEY. It is a Saturday. I knocked on the door, and this young -fellow came out, without a shirt. He had a pair of Marine Corps fatigue -trousers on. I asked him, "Are you Lee Oswald?" And he said "Yes." - -I introduced myself and I told him I would like to have him on my -program that night. So he asked me in on the porch. This was a screened -porch, and I had a very brief chat. He said he would ask me inside for -some coffee but that his wife and his baby were sleeping so we had -better talk on the porch. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe this Magazine Street place. Were you able to find -it easily? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; no problem. It was on the side of the house--or the -entrance was on the side. - -Mr. JENNER. Was on the side and somewhat back from the front? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it was facing the street; it wasn't facing the side -of the property, but it was offset, to the rear. - -Mr. JENNER. Frame house? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it was a frame house, as well as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. So we had a few cursory remarks there about the -organization. He showed me his membership card to the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee, which was interesting, and it identified him as -the secretary of the New Orleans chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee, and it was signed by A. Hidell, president. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that president or secretary? - -Mr. STUCKEY. President, A. Hidell. He was identified on the card, as I -recall, as the secretary. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Oswald; yes. It was a card on which there was a -handwritten--it said "Mr." and then a blank, and a handwritten name -"Lee Oswald" was in the center of the card. In the lower right-hand -corner it was signed by A. Hidell, president. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this name familiar to you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; as a matter of fact, I would like to explain this, -that the name meant nothing to me at all, and the name never occurred -to me again, I never thought of the name again, until after the -assassination when Mr. Henry Wade of Dallas on television on a Sunday, -I believe, mentioned that Oswald purchased a rifle from a Chicago -mail-order house and had used the name A. Hidell in purchasing the -rifle. When he said "A. Hidell" it hit me like, it was like a light -bulb over my head, I recalled the name. Otherwise I would never have -remembered the name. - -Oswald gave me some pieces of literature at this time. There were -several--I will mention them if you would like. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish you would. - -Mr. STUCKEY. There were two speeches by Fidel Castro. One was "The -Revolution Must Be a School of Unfettered Thought." Another was -"Bureaucracy and Sectarianism." There was a pamphlet by Jean Paul -Sartre, and this pamphlet was called "Ideology and Revolution." - -There was a pamphlet called "The Crime Against Cuba," by Corliss -Lamont. I believe that is all the literature that he gave me at that -time. I got some subsequently to that which, incidentally, Mr. Jenner. -I promised you that pamphlet the last time I saw you, and I couldn't -find it, but I have since found it, and I brought it up for you. I will -give it to you now before I forget. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. I will show you what is marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 -and ask you if you recognize the person shown on that photograph. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it look like him as of the time that you interviewed -him on Saturday, August 17? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Almost exactly. He was dressed almost in exactly the same -way, with a short-sleeved dress shirt, and a tie, and a black looseleaf -notebook under his arm which apparently he used as a holder for -literature. - -Mr. JENNER. I hand you a series of exhibits, Pizzo Exhibits Nos. 453-A, -453-B, and 453-C. Would you examine those and tell me whether your -friend, Mr. Bringuier, is shown on any of those photographs? - -Mr. STUCKEY. He is not there. - -Mr. JENNER. You were referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A; he is not on -that one? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is of Oswald alone. - -Mr. JENNER. Pizzo Exhibit 453-C is a picture of Oswald? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Pizzo Exhibit 453-B is also Oswald, but Bringuier is -not in the picture. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. We will mark the pamphlet you have brought with -you, which is entitled "The Cuban 'Episode' and the American Press: -April 9-23, 1961" as Stuckey Exhibit No. 1. - -(The pamphlet was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Handing you Stuckey Exhibit No. 1, being a 15-page -pamphlet--I guess it is 16 including the back cover--is that one of the -pamphlets that he handed to you and exhibited to you on August 17 and -Saturday morning when you interviewed him in his home? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; this is not one. I received this pamphlet that night -when he showed up at the radio station. - -Mr. JENNER. We will go into it later on, but I think for purposes of -identification, was it a pamphlet that he gave you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he gave it to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to the radio broadcast you are about to describe? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Immediately prior to that. Incidentally, I requested all -the literature that he had. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; and he gave me everything he could find that morning -which were the four or five pieces I have already described. Then at -night he says, "Look, I found this also", and he brought this. - -Mr. JENNER. Meaning Stuckey Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. All right, we -had you still on Saturday morning talking with him at his home on -Magazine Street. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Right. We discussed literature, his literature, the pieces -of information I have already described. He showed me the Fair Play -for Cuba Committee membership card. I asked him about the membership -of this organization, and he said there were quite a few, quite a few -members. The figure 12 or 13 sticks in my head. I don't really recall -why now. There were that many officers or something like that, 12 or -13 people he mentioned that he was responsible to, or active workers, -something like that, although I guess I shouldn't mention it until I -have a more coherent idea of why he used that. - -Mr. JENNER. Just give your best recollection of what he said on that -occasion. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Right. Also as I recall, he was very vehement, insisting -he was not the president, but was the secretary, and that was the -occasion in which he pulled out his card showing that he was the -secretary, not the president, and this other gentleman, Hidell, was the -president. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that strike you in any special way that he was -apparently careful to point out to you that he was secretary instead of -president? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; it made no impression on me, none whatsoever. It -seemed logical. He appeared to be a very logical, intelligent fellow, -and the only strange thing about him was his organization. This was, -seemed, incongruous to me that a group of this type--or he should -associate with a group of this type, because he did not seem the type -at all, or at least what I have in my mind as the type. - -I would like to mention this. I was arrested by his cleancutness. I -didn't expect this at all. I expected a folk-singer type, something of -that kind, somebody with a beard and sandals, and he said--I found this -fellow, instead I found this fellow who was neat and clean, watched -himself pretty well. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean he watched his---- - -Mr. STUCKEY. He seemed to be very conscious about all of his words, all -of his movements, sort of very deliberate. He was very deliberate with -his words, and struck me as being rather articulate. He was the type of -person you would say would inspire confidence. This was the incongruity -that struck me, the fact that this type of person should be with this -organization. That is the gist of the first meeting. - -I asked him to meet me at the radio station that afternoon about 5 -o'clock for the interview, and he agreed. - -Mr. JENNER. This was to be an interview preliminary to a broadcast? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Well, this was to be a recorded interview prior to the -broadcast. - -Mr. JENNER. Why would you do that? - -Mr. STUCKEY. To avoid the possibility of errors. It is a risky business -going on live. You know, you never know when you are going to slip up -and, particularly, with somebody as controversial as a representative -of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee you want to know what you have in -hand before you put it on. - -During that day I thought quite a bit about Oswald before he arrived -at the station for the interview, and I was interested in his -articulateness and in discussing this organization, so I had decided -during the day that instead of just interviewing him for 5 minutes, -which was the length of my program, that I would just let him talk as -long as he wanted to. - -Mr. JENNER. In the private interview with you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; but record it. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. And then I thought after doing that I could take some -excerpts out for a 5-minute program, and then ask the management at the -station if they would be interested in running the whole thing in toto -as a demonstration of the line of this organization. So this was the -decision I made before the broadcast. - -I drew up a lengthy list of questions, and then I met him that -afternoon about 5 o'clock at the studios of WDSU, 520 Royal Street, New -Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. That is in the French Quarter, is it not? - -Mr. STUCKEY. In the French Quarter. He was dressed exactly as he is -shown in this picture. - -Mr. JENNER. Garner Exhibit No. 1. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Which is Exhibit No. 1, short-sleeved dress shirt with -a tie, a black looseleaf notebook under his arm. There were no -preliminary remarks particularly. We just went immediately into the -studio. It was at this point that he gave me this pamphlet. - -Mr. JENNER. Stuckey Exhibit No. 1. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. And we were seated--this conversation -was witnessed or listened to by an engineer in WDSU by the name of Al -Campin. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that prearranged? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Well, you have to have an engineer to record it. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. STUCKEY. He just happened to be there operating the equipment, but -he was, I mean he was, there, as a witness, and was greatly interested -in it, because like me he hadn't run across too many of these birds, -and we were curious to see how they thought and why. - -So at that time then we began a long rambling recorded interview which -lasted 37 minutes, covered a wide range of subjects. - -Naturally, a lot of the subjects had to do with Cuba. We discussed the -problem of the refugees leaving Cuba, we discussed as to whether or not -Castro was an independent ruler of an independent nation or whether he -was merely the head of a colony which was the line that I took. - -Mr. JENNER. Head of a colony? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; a Russian colony, Cuba. This was the line that I took -in this questioning. - -We discussed the economic situation in Cuba, as to what had happened -to the economy since Castro took over. We discussed a few abstracts. I -asked him the definition of "democracy," which was interesting to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a transcript of that interview? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you brought one with you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. May I have it, please? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Incidentally, I have a letter here that you may or may -not be interested in. Father Clancy is the chairman of the political -science department at Loyola University in New Orleans. I sent him this -transcript as a Catholic and as a political science man just to see -what his opinion was, and he went much stronger than I ever did after -reading that, but the last paragraph, I thought, was interesting, and I -thought you might be interested in reading the letter. - -Mr. JENNER. The witness has furnished me a 13-page document on -light-weight, green-tinted paper. The first page is entitled -"Transcript of Taped Interview Between William K. Stuckey and Lee -Harvey Oswald, August 17, 1963," and the last page of which, the last -three lines of which, read: - -"STUCKEY: Tonight we have been talking with Lee H. Oswald, secretary of -The Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans," et cetera. "(Standard -close.)" - -I wonder if you would be good enough, Mr. Stuckey, to initial each of -these 13 pages. We will mark this as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. I suggest -you put your initials at the bottom. - -(The document was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. The witness has now placed his initials at the foot of each -of the 13 pages of the transcript. - -When and how was this document prepared, Stuckey Exhibit No. 2? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I typed it. - -Mr. JENNER. You typed it as you were listening to your tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have also brought with you the actual original tape of -this interview? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the radio tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And this 13-page document is a literal transcription or -translation of that tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; there are some errors, but they are very, very small -errors, largely typographical errors. - -Mr. JENNER. Prepared by you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the 13-page document, and if there are -any errors other than obvious typographical errors which you would like -to draw to our attention, I wish you would do it. You were going to -look through it and see if there were---- - -Mr. STUCKEY. I can tell you in advance there are no errors in fact, -and no deletions, with the exception of this last paragraph which I -abbreviated by saying "standard close." All that was, was I would have -been talking with Lee Harvey Oswald--"This is Bill Stuckey, Latin -Listening Post. Good night"--that is all that was, no facts at all. - -Mr. JENNER. The words ("standard close") appearing on the last line of -page 13 is a shorthand way of your designating your customary signoff? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. - -Mr. STUCKEY. I was going to refer to this definition of "democracy" -that he gave. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Are you interested in it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. This is interesting to me for a number of reasons, not -just the meaning but how adept this fellow was at taking a question, -any question, and distorting it for his own purposes, saying what -he wanted to say while making you think that he was answering your -question. He was expert in dialectics. - -"STUCKEY: What's your definition of democracy?" - -Mr. JENNER. You are reading from Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 now? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. - -"OSWALD: My definition--well, the definition of democracy--that's a -very good one. That's a very controversial viewpoint. You know, it used -to be very clear, but now it is not. You know, when our forefathers -drew up the Constitution they considered that democracy was creating an -atmosphere of freedom of discussion, of argument, of finding the truth; -these rights, well, the classic rights of having life, liberty, and -pursuit of happiness. In Latin America they have none of those rights, -none of them at all, and that is my definition of democracy, the right -to be in a minority and not to be suppressed; the right to see for -yourself without government restrictions such countries as Cuba, and we -are restricted from going to Cuba." - -The question was, "What is your definition of democracy?", and we -discussed the passport ban as part of the definition. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, he did not respond to your question? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; except obliquely to make the point. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you find that he did that--it will appear, of course, -in that transcript---- - -Mr. STUCKEY. Constantly throughout the interview. - -Mr. JENNER. In your discussions with him he parried your questions by -not answering them. - -Mr. STUCKEY. He would--his general attack would be "I am glad you -asked that question, it is very good," and then he would proceed to -talk about what he wanted to talk about, and completely ignore your -questions on occasions. So there were at least half a dozen examples of -that. - -Mr. JENNER. In the transcript which you have furnished? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you supply a copy of that transcript to anyone else -prior to your bringing Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 today? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. To whom? - -Mr. STUCKEY. To the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. JENNER. When you were interviewed by the FBI you supplied the FBI -with a transcript? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; as a matter of fact I gave the tape to the FBI the -Monday following the interview, which would have been August 20, 1963. -I told them I thought it was very interesting, and if they would like -to have a transcript they could copy it, which they did. They made a -copy and then they gave me a copy of their transcript, and returned the -tape to me. - -Mr. JENNER. But Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 is the one that you prepared? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And not one that the FBI prepared. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -This was on Saturday afternoon. Were you scheduled to go on the air -that evening? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; my broadcast time is 7:30. I met him about 5, about -two and a half hours in advance. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you contemplated that the broadcast that evening would -be a discourse only between you and Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the way it developed? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is the way it developed. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that broadcast? I should say to you -we have from--what is the radio station? - -Mr. STUCKEY. WDSU. - -Mr. JENNER. From WDSU we have obtained a copy of that tape. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Now, you mean of this tape? - -Mr. JENNER. No. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Because I don't think they have a copy of that tape. - -Mr. JENNER. No; the broadcast that evening I am talking about. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Is that right? They located it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Because I tried to find a copy of that mainly to take it -off the market and never did locate it. I couldn't find it. This must -be a recent development. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; but despite that would you tell us about that -broadcast? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -As I said, this was a 37-minute, rambling interview between Oswald and -myself, and following the interview, first we played it back to hear -it. He was satisfied. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, you played back the tape of which Exhibit No. 2 is -a transcript? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Correct; Oswald was satisfied. I think he thought he had -scored quite a coup. - -Then I went back over it in his presence and with the engineer's help -excerpted a couple of the remarks by Oswald in this. I forget now -what the excerpts were. It has been so long ago. I think we had his -definition of democracy because that, in particular, struck me, and we -had a couple of his comments in which he said Castro was a free and -independent leader of a free and independent state, and the rest of it, -as I recall, was largely my summarizing of the other principal points -of the 37-minute interview, and it was broadcast on schedule that night. - -Mr. JENNER. You had watered it down in length to how many minutes? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Five minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Five minutes? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Actually 4-1/2. - -Mr. JENNER. So you took the portions of your 37-minute interview, -which we now have a transcript of, which is Exhibit No. 2, and boiled -that down to 4-1/2 minutes? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was a radio broadcast? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That evening. All right. Was that your last contact with -Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Following the broadcast did you have any further -conversation with him, that evening? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That evening; no. The only thing that did transpire was -I told him that I was going to talk to the news director to see if -the news director was interested in running the entire 37-minute tape -later, and I told him to get in touch with me, Oswald to get in touch -with me Monday, and I would let him know what the news director said, -and that was all the conversation we had that night, and he went his -way. - -I did just that the next Monday, I called the news director and -asked him if he had heard the tape, and he said no. I asked him if -he was interested in running it. I told him I thought it was pretty -interesting, and he said, for some reason, he thought that it would be -more spectacular a little bit--there would be more public interest if -we did not run this tape at all, but instead arrange a second program, -a debate panel show, with some local anti-Communists on there to refute -some of his arguments, which I did. Which I did--I arranged a debate -show for a regular radio feature that WDSU has called "Conversation -Carte Blanche." This is a 25-minute public affairs program that runs -daily. It is almost always interviews of people in the news locally or -this sort of thing. - -I was in charge of arranging the panel, so I picked Mr. Edward S. -Butler. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us who he is. - -Mr. STUCKEY. He is the Executive Director of the Information Council of -the Americas in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that organization? - -Mr. STUCKEY. It is an anti-Communist propaganda organization. Their -principal activity is to take tape-recorded interviews with Cuban -refugees or refugees from Iron Curtain countries, and distribute these -tapes which are naturally, it goes without saying, these tapes are -very strongly anti-Communist, and they distribute these tapes to radio -stations throughout Latin America. As I recall, they came to have over -100 stations using these tapes regularly. - -Well, Mr. Butler is a friend of mine. I knew him as a columnist, and it -just seemed like---- - -Mr. JENNER. He was an articulate and knowledgeable man in this area to -which he directs his attention? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; so I asked him to be one of the panelists on the -show, which he accepted, and, incidentally, I let him hear the -37-minute tape in advance; and for the other panelist I asked Mr. -Bringuier, Mr. Carlos Bringuier, that we mentioned earlier, as being -the man who led me to Oswald--I asked him to appear on the show to give -it a little Cuban flavor. - -And then Oswald called me after it was arranged, and I told him we were -going to arrange the show and would he be interested, and he said, -yes, indeed, and then he said, "How many of you am I going to have to -fight?" That was his version of saying how many are on the panel. - -Mr. JENNER. He said this to you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; in a jocular way. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did this take place, on the telephone? - -Mr. STUCKEY. On the telephone; yes. - -This was Monday or Tuesday, the 19th or the 20th of August, whenever it -was that I had informed him of the show. - -Mr. JENNER. Had he called you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I gave him my office number so he called me at a -prearranged time. He was very punctual, very punctual. He was always -there on time, all those calls came on time. So I informed him about -this debate show and he agreed. He said he thought that would be -interesting. - -Then the next time I see him is on the afternoon of August 21, -Wednesday. I believe this was about 5:30. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this to be a preliminary session also? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes--well, no; this was to be a live program. The -Conversation Carte Blanche panel show is not to be prerecorded as the -other one was. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, but I was just talking about your -meeting with him on Wednesday afternoon, the 21st, at 5:30. The program -went on at what time? - -Mr. STUCKEY. At 6:05. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. It was not long before the program. - -Mr. STUCKEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not a preliminary interview such as you had had, -which is transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; there were some comments of which I will tell you -later. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to add this, this is very interesting, -and gave a little bit of spice to this encounter. During that day, -Wednesday, August 21, one of my news sources called me up and said, "I -hear you are going to have Oswald on Carte Blanche." I said, "Yes, that -is right." He said, "We have some information about Mr. Oswald, the -fact that he lived in Russia for 3 years." - -He had omitted reference to this in the 37-minute previous interview, -and in all of our conversations. - -Mr. JENNER. He had never mentioned that subject prior to that? - -Mr. STUCKEY. As a matter of fact, he gives an account of his background -in here. - -Mr. JENNER. In Stuckey Exhibit No. 2? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Right; in which he completely omits this. Would you like -me to read it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you have turned to a particular page? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I will be reading from this. Here is my question. - -"STUCKEY:"---- - -Mr. JENNER. Maybe we can identify the page. - -Mr. STUCKEY. This will be page 11. - -Mr. JENNER. Page 11 of Stuckey Exhibit No. 2. - -Mr. STUCKEY. My question was: - -"Mr. Oswald, I am curious about your personal background. If you could -tell something about where you came from, your education and your -career to date, it would be interesting. - -"OSWALD:"--this is his reply--"I would be very happy to. I was born in -New Orleans in 1939. For a short length of time during my childhood -I lived in Texas and New York. During my junior high school days I -attended Beauregard Junior High School. I attended that school for 2 -years. Then I went to Warren Eastern High School, and I attended that -school for over a year. Then my family and I moved to Texas where we -have many relatives, and I continued my schooling there. I entered -the United States Marine Corps in 1956. I spent 3 years in the United -States Marine Corps working my way up through the ranks to the position -of buck sergeant, and I served honorably having been discharged. Then -I went back to work in Texas and have recently arrived in New Orleans -with my family, with my wife and my child." - -There is his answer. He omits the 3 years in Russia by saying that, -referring to the fact that, after leaving the Marine Corps he says he -went to Texas and then to New Orleans. You will note in there he lied -about his rank he achieved in the Marine Corps. Why, I don't know. As -far as I know he was just a Pfc. - -Mr. JENNER. He never rose any higher. - -Mr. STUCKEY. And, as I recall, he did not go to Warren Eastern High -School over a year. - -Mr. JENNER. You have become aware he attended Beauregard only 1 year -rather than 2? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That he attended Warren Eastern about 6 weeks or 2 months. - -Mr. STUCKEY. That was my impression. I mention this because with this -in mind, this is why it was so interesting to me to find out on that -day, August 21, that he had lied to me, that he had, in fact, lived in -Russia for 3 years, and had just recently returned, and this individual -who called me and gave me this information gave me dates of Washington -newspaper clippings that I could check, which were stories about his -leaving for Russia, or rather his appearance in Moscow in 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this information came to you between the time of your -interview transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 and the 21st of August -when you were about to put on your debate program, the discussion -program? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this come to you sufficiently in advance to enable you -to do some checking vis-a-vis newspaper or articles? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was he unaware when he came in at 5:30 on the afternoon -of Wednesday that you had done this, had received this information and -had done some research? - -Mr. STUCKEY. He was unaware of that fact. During that day Mr. Butler -called, after I had already been tipped off about his Russian -residence, Mr. Butler called and said he too had found out the same -thing, I think later; his source apparently was the House Un-American -Activities Committee or something like that. - -At any rate, we thought this was very interesting and we agreed -together to produce this information on the program that night. - -Mr. JENNER. You were going to face him on the program with this? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Unawareness. - -Mr. JENNER. You thought it might be a bombshell and be unaware to him. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STUCKEY. And we decided it would be me who would do it as the -introducing participant. - -So at about 5:30 that afternoon I arrived at the studio alone. Oswald -appeared, and in a very heavy gray flannel suit, and this is August -in New Orleans, it is extremely hot, that he appears in a very heavy -gray flannel suit, very bulky, badly cut suit, and looking very hot -and uncomfortable. He had a blue shirt on and a dark tie, and a black -looseleaf notebook. - -Mr. JENNER. The same one he had had before? - -Mr. STUCKEY. As far as I know. We shook hands, passed a few -pleasantries, nothing much of importance. - -Mr. JENNER. Were the others present? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; they arrived a little bit later. Oswald was there -first, as usual on time, and then Mr. Butler came in with Mr. -Bringuier. Both looked as if they had pounds and pounds of literature -with them, and statistics. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Bringuier and Oswald recognize each other? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was apparent to you they were acquainted? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Oh, yes; indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. And that Oswald was acquainted with Bringuier and vice -versa? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Had Oswald met Mr. Butler before? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I don't know if he had or not. It was my impression that -he had not, but I think he knew who he was. Oswald asked me something -about the organization, and I told him, I said, "Well, it is just like -your organization; it is a propaganda outfit, just on the other side of -the fence," and that satisfied his curiosity. - -I think he immediately kissed it off as a hopeless rightist -organization, "You can't reason with those people," that approach. - -So it was a somewhat touchy exchange there between Bringuier and Oswald -in the studio. Bringuier, as well as I recall, started out with a -remark like this, saying, "You know, I thought you were a very nice -boy. You really made a good impression on me when I first met you." -Referring to Oswald's visit to Bringuier in the store when Oswald was -posing as an anti-Castro enthusiast, and Bringuier said, "I cannot -understand how you have let yourself become entangled with this group." - -He said, "I don't think you know what you are doing." - -Oswald said something to the effect that, "I don't think you know -what you are doing," and back and forth such as this. Bringuier said, -"Anytime you want to get out of your organization and join mine there -is a place for you," and he says, "I hope one day you will see the -light." - -And again Oswald says, "I hope you see the light," and that was about -all there was to that. - -Butler didn't say anything to him particularly. It was just -pleasantries, "How do you do," and such. - -Mr. JENNER. How old a man is Butler? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Butler is in his late twenties, he is 29 or 30. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he an educated man? - -Mr. STUCKEY. College, as far as I know. He is advertising, public -relations man before he went into the propaganda business, and that was -about the extent of the exchanges prior to the broadcast. - -Then I left to go back to the newsroom, which was a different room -from the room where we were sitting, to get Bill Slatter, who is the -official moderator of the program, and we came back and picked up our -participants and went into the broadcast room. - -As I recall, in opening the show Bill Slatter said that myself and -he would be talking to three other people. In other words, I was not -considered a panelist, but there were two station people and three -panel people. This was the way it was explained, and Slatter turned the -program over to me after a very brief introduction and description of -Oswald and a brief capsule of his background in New Orleans to date, -and then he turned the show over to me, and I gave a several-minute -description of the organization, Mr. Oswald and his activities in New -Orleans up to that time, and then I pulled the Russian thing on him. - -I did mention--I think I did it this way, I said: - -"Mr. Oswald, in the previous interview, gave me a description of his -background. He told me this and that and this and that, but he omitted -some information, to the best of my knowledge," and I mentioned that -that day some newspaper clippings had come to my attention about his -residence in Russia, and I said, "Is this true, Mr. Oswald?"; and -Oswald said, "Yes." - -Mr. JENNER. Would you mark what I hand you, Mr. Reporter, as Stuckey -Exhibit No. 3. - -(The item was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 3 for identification.) - -Mr. STUCKEY. You may be interested in knowing that the Information -Council of the Americas, Mr. Butler's organization, has since made a -record out of this debate, and just released it about 2 weeks ago, -called "Self-Portrait in Red." - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to hand you, to refresh your recollection, if it -needs refreshing, a 10-page document which I have marked for purposes -of identification only as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3. Each of these pages -bears the figure 236 in red ink at the bottom. It is also known here -as, that is, around here, as Commission Document No. 87B. The pages -are numbered at the top 1 through 10, inclusive. It purports to be a -transcript of a tape recording of your broadcast of the evening about -which you speak, a debate on August 21, 1963. - -We have obtained from the radio station, WDSU, a duplicate of the tape -itself. Would you take a look at this transcript and perhaps, if you -will run through it, tell us whether it is, to your recollection, a -transcript of your program that night? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to say this about this transcript. I think it -is very unfair. These people have put in all of Oswald's hesitations, -his "er's," and that sort of thing. I notice when the AP ran an account -of this after the assassination they had done all of this on Oswald. -They were apparently trying to make him look stupid. Everybody else was -using the "er's," but they didn't put those in. - -Mr. JENNER. I will say it is a transcript--your attention is drawn -to the fact that the hesitations of Oswald are included, but the -hesitations of, let us say, even yourself and the other participants, -are not. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Are not. - -Mr. JENNER. And in that sense it is in some measure a distortion of the -actual tape. - -Mr. STUCKEY. A slight distortion. I think it is an unfair thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, we have the actual tape so the hesitations will -appear, and what I was using this primarily for is to afford you an -opportunity, if you wish to use it, to refresh your recollection of -this program. - -What were some of the things that you now recall that struck you about -this dissertation? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Well, of course, the principal thing that came out on that -program, aside from the Russian residence, the most striking thing -was his admission that he was a Marxist. We asked him if he was a -Communist--we were always doing this--he was very clever about avoiding -the question. He would usually say, "As I said before, I belong to no -other organization other than the Fair Play for Cuba Committee." - -So we asked him this question, of course, and he gave us that answer, -and I asked, "Are you a Marxist?"; and he said, "Yes." - -Otherwise, it was--the program was largely speeches by Bringuier and -Butler, and Oswald did not have a chance to ramble much or to talk much -as he had earlier, and most of his answers are rather short. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get into a discussion of democracy and communism -and Marxism and then the distinctions? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The distinctions between them? - -Mr. STUCKEY. A brief discussion. We asked him, I say "we," I mean Mr. -Butler asked him the difference between being a Marxist and being a -Communist, and this was a typical oblique Oswald answer. He says, "It -is the same difference between Ghana and Guinea, and even in Great -Britain they have socialized medicine," and that is about the extent of -the answer. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to this man's deep or -fundamental appreciation of Marxism, democracy, communism, fascism, -socialism, as the case might be? - -Mr. STUCKEY. It was my impression he had done a great deal of reading. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have an impression that his knowledge--that he -was, if I may use this expression, that he had a superficial knowledge -as distinguished from a close study with a critical leader or teacher -pointing out to him the fundamental distinctions between these systems? - -Mr. STUCKEY. It would be difficult to say. It was apparent he was -acquainted with a wide body of facts and he knew appropriate words and -such from historical points concerning the development of Marxism. - -Mr. JENNER. You see I am seeking your impression at the time and not -one that you have formed since. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; right. Well, I had not run across many Marxists in my -time, and I guess this was about the first professional Marxist I had -run across, and he impressed me as knowing something about the subject. -But again it was difficult to appraise the full measure of his learning -because of his oblique way of answering questions and dodging questions -whenever he did not want to speak about a particular point. I would -hesitate to say whether it was superficial or not. I just don't know -that much about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of his demeanor. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Confident. - -Mr. JENNER. Confident, self-assured? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Self-assured, logical. - -Mr. JENNER. Able to handle questions? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Very well qualified to handle questions, articulate. There -was a little bit of a woodenness in his voice at times, and a little -stiff. This was another impression of mine about Oswald, his academic -manner. If he could use a six-syllable word---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean demeanor? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Demeanor; yes. If he could use a six-syllable word instead -of a two-syllable word, he would do so. Now that characteristic in -itself would not tend to make it that his learning was superficial. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression he searched for the -multisyllable word? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes; as I say, he would prefer that. I don't know -why--of course, this is all hindsight, but it occurred to me he would -be the type of man who would not use the word, say, "murder," when -he could use something a little more formal like "act of violence," -this sort of thing. It was, as a matter of fact, his manner was -sort of quasi-legal. It was almost as if he had--as if he were a -young attorney. He seemed to be very well acquainted with the legal -terminology dealing with constitutional rights. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this discussion become heated? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it did. It got rather heated. Mr. Butler, in -particular, more or less took the offensive, and attempted to trip him -up a few times on questions, questions about the nature of Marxism and -of the nature of the Castro regime and this sort of thing, and Mr. -Oswald handled himself very well, as usual. I think that we finished -him on that program. I think that after that program the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee, if there ever was one in New Orleans, had no future -there, because we had publicly linked the Fair Play for Cuba Committee -with a fellow who had lived in Russia for 3 years and who was an -admitted Marxist. - -The interesting thing, or rather the danger involved, was the fact -that Oswald seemed like such a nice, bright boy and was extremely -believable before this. We thought the fellow could probably get quite -a few members if he was really indeed serious about getting members. -We figured after this broadcast of August 21, why, that was no longer -possible. - -Mr. JENNER. The broadcast ran approximately how long? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Twenty-five minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. And after the broadcast broke up was that the last of your -contacts with Oswald? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; it wasn't. The others left, and Oswald looked a -little dejected, and I said, "Well, let's go out and have a beer," and -he says, "All right." So we left the studio and went to a bar called -Comeaux's Bar. It is about a half-block from the studio and this was -the first time that his manner kind of changed from the quasi-legal -position, and he relaxed a little bit. This was the first time I -ever saw him relaxed and off of his guard. We had about an hour's -conversation, 45 minutes to an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a -little less, and, by the way, I mentioned his suit being rather gawky -cut, and he told me afterward the suit was purchased in Russia, and -they didn't know much about making clothes over there. Would you like -me to tell you about the conversation? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I would. - -Mr. STUCKEY. We covered a number of points because I was relaxed, -as far as I was concerned professionally I had no other occasion -to contact Oswald. He was off the spot. So we just had a little -conversation. During that conversation he told me that he was reading -at that time about Indonesian communism, and that he was reading -everything he could get his hands on. He offered an opinion about -Sukarno, that he was not really a Communist, that he was merely an -opportunist who was using the Communists. - -We had a discussion about alcohol. I noticed he wasn't doing very good -with his beer, and it was a hot night, and he made a reference to that. -He said, "Well, you see, I am not used to drinking beer. I am a vodka -drinker." And he said, "My father-in-law taught me how to drink vodka," -and then he proceeded to tell me that his father-in-law, who was the -father of his wife Marina, was a Russian Army colonel, and mentioned -that as an army colonel he earned quite a bit more money than Oswald -was earning in Russia. Oswald told me at that time he was making about -80 rubles a month as a factory worker, whereas his father-in-law, the -Colonel, was making something like 300 rubles a month, so he could -afford all the vodka he wanted, and he says that is who taught him to -drink vodka. May I refresh my memory---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. With some notes? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. You have mentioned Marina for the first time when you -cited her a moment ago. Had he mentioned her prior to that time? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Not by name. He only referred to her as "my wife." - -Mr. JENNER. Had he identified her as to her origin here or in Russia? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; this was afterward. Naturally when we brought up this -business about the Russian residence, he mentioned she was a Russian -girl and spoke no English. He said that was the way he wanted it -because it gave him an opportunity to keep up his Russian. He wanted to -keep his Russian up, and so they spoke nothing but Russian in the home. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any family? - -Mr. STUCKEY. He mentioned a wife and child. Now on the first broadcast -on Saturday the 17th he mentioned, you will recall, in that brief -digest of his background, he said he had been in the Marine Corps and -then had left and gone to Texas and had recently arrived in New Orleans -with his wife and his child. So in that case he mentioned that he did -have a daughter and a wife. I see something I have omitted about the -first meeting I had with him on the morning of August 17th. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STUCKEY. At his home. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. STUCKEY. He told me at that time he was working as an assistant to -a commercial photographer in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. You made no check on that? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; I didn't check him out. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not then aware of the fact that, the fact was that -he was not an assistant to a commercial photographer. - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; I was not aware of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you where he was working? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not aware, therefore, at that time he was at that -time an oiler or a greaser at the Reily Coffee Co. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Is that correct? - -Mr. JENNER. He was out of work at that time, but he had been. - -Mr. STUCKEY. I never could figure out why he referred to the trade of -photography. Had he been involved in photography? - -Mr. JENNER. When he was in Dallas prior to his coming to New Orleans -in the spring of 1963, he had been an apprentice with a company, -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, a commercial advertising photographing company -that produced advertising materials, mats, and photographs, and -that sort of thing. He worked in the darkroom. He had very limited -experience. - -Mr. STUCKEY. That apparently is what he was referring to. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Here is some additional information if you would like me -to bring this out. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; go ahead. - -Mr. STUCKEY. I am going to the conversation after the broadcast of the -21st, this is with Oswald and me at Comeaux's Bar. I asked him at that -time how he became interested in Marxism and he said that there are -many books on the subject in any public library. I asked him if he, -if his family was an influence on him in any way. He says, "No," and -he kind of looked a little amused. He said, "No," he says, "They are -pretty much typical New Orleans types," and that was about all he said. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he mention his mother? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; he didn't. As a matter of fact, when we referred -to his family, all his references were in the plural, and it was my -impression that he had a mother and a father, sisters, aunts, uncles -and everybody, because the general impression was that there were a -number of people in the family. I was surprised to find out that it -wasn't true, later. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he had relatives in New Orleans, the Murret family. - -Mr. STUCKEY. I see. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret is--Marguerite Oswald, that is his mother--that -was her sister. - -Mr. STUCKEY. He told me that he had begun to read Marx and Engels at -the age of 15, but he said the conclusive thing that made him decide -that Marxism was the answer was his service in Japan. He said living -conditions over there convinced him something was wrong with the -system, and that possibly Marxism was the answer. He said it was in -Japan that he made up his mind to go to Russia and see for himself how -a revolutionary society operates, a Marxist society. - -Mr. JENNER. He thought that Russia was a Marxist society? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you question or discuss with him whether he found that -the system in Russia was a Marxist society or whether it was---- - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he wasn't very pleased apparently with some of the -aspects of Russian political life. Particularly in the factories he -said that a lot of the attitudes and this sort of thing was the same -sort of attitude that you would find in an American factory. There was -a lot of dead-heading, as we say in Louisiana. I don't know what your -expression is. - -Mr. JENNER. Goldbricking. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Goldbricking. The boss' relatives on the payrolls at nice -salaries. - -Mr. JENNER. Nepotism. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Nepotism, this sort of thing. Anybody with any authority -at all would just use it to death to get everybody extra privileges -that they could, and a lot of dishonesty, padding of production figures -and this sort of thing. He said he wasn't very impressed. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you curious as to why he had come back to the United -States and did you, if you were curious, discuss that subject with him? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, I wasn't -curious at the time. We just accepted the fact that he had. In -hindsight we should have asked a lot of questions about him. - -Mr. JENNER. The newspaper material that you had read, there was, was -there not, something about his dishonorable discharge from the Marines? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; I don't recall any reference to that in the -newspapers. Incidentally, Oswald had told me and had produced a -discharge card that he was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps. -He produced a card showing this. - -Mr. JENNER. When had he done that? - -Mr. STUCKEY. This was the night of the 17th at the radio station. Why -he did this I don't know. I forget what the circumstances were. I -recognized the card because, after all, I was a marine myself and I had -one exactly like it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you, in the tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar discuss with -him his attempt, when in Russia, to renounce his American citizenship? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; we didn't, because that was alluded to in the -broadcast and, as far as I was concerned, it was satisfactorily -answered. - -Mr. JENNER. He does respond--you say, and I am now turning to the -document identified as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3, a transcript of that -radio debate--in your preliminary remarks you advert to the fact -that you had sought an independent source, Washington newspaper -clippings--you advert to the fact that Mr. Oswald, and I am reading, -"Mr. Oswald had attempted to renounce his American citizenship in 1959 -and become a Soviet citizen. - -"There was another clipping dated 1952 saying Mr. Oswald had returned -from the Soviet Union with his wife and child after having lived there -3 years. Mr. Oswald, are these correct?" And he responds, "That is -correct." I might say for the record that the date 1952 is the date -that appears in this transcript, but the fact is that it was 1962. That -was either a slip of the tongue or it is a typographical error, is that -correct? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. But in this informal conversation following the broadcast -you did not pursue these subjects? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Not those. We discussed other subjects. He made another -observation about life in Russia. He said things were extremely bland, -homogenized. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he elaborate on that? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I thought it was interesting. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please. - -Mr. STUCKEY. He said that nobody--everybody seems to be almost alike in -Russia because, after all, they had eliminated a lot of the dissenting -elements in Russian society and had achieved fairly homogenous blend of -population as a result. - -Mr. JENNER. That was an observation on his part, was it, of an aspect -of Russian society that disappointed him? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I don't know. I don't recall him expressing an opinion -as to whether he was disappointed by that. It was a comment. His tone -was slightly acid as if he did not like it, but again this is my -impression. He did say this which was interesting, he said that they -wouldn't allow any Fair Play for Cuba Committees in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. He did? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he said they just would not because it is the type of -organization that Russian society would just suppress. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian society? - -Mr. STUCKEY. The Russian authorities would suppress. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian authorities suppress any militant organization of -this character. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether it was Fair Play for Cuba or anything else that is -militant in the sense of being openly critical of the Russian society -and Russian politics? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he observe on that subject, did he observe in the sense -of his feeling that in America you are permitted within the bounds of -the Constitution to enjoy free speech and criticize your Government as -distinguished from not being able to do so in Russia? - -Mr. STUCKEY. He didn't add anything other than what I have already -said, but the implication was that we can do that here. "After all, you -know here I have this organization and I am doing this. They probably -would not let me do a similar thing in Russia," and this was his tone. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to his regard or judgment -with respect to the government in which he was, whose privileges he was -then exercising? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; he had given lip service a time or two to the fact -that he considered himself a loyal American. He was constantly -referring to rights, constitutional rights, and he made some historical -references. He illustrated the development of these rights in America. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this informal conversation at Comeaux's Bar go on, you -said, for about an hour? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Approximately an hour. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he comfortable in the sense--was he eager, was he -pleased---- - -Mr. STUCKEY. He was relaxed, he was friendly. He seemed to be relieved -it was all over. My impression was he was relieved that he did not have -to hide the bit about the Russian residence any more, and that it had -been a strain doing so, because his manner was completely different. -There wasn't the stiffness or the guarded words and guarded replies. He -seemed fairly open, and I have no reason to believe that everything he -told me that night was not true. I think it was true. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any difference in his attitude or demeanor with -respect to personal self-confidence, for example, in that Saturday -interview at his home and your interview with him prior to the Monday -night broadcast, taking that as a base, and comparing it with his -attitude in Comeaux's Bar after you had revealed the fact that he had -been in Russia and had attempted to defect? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Well, there wasn't any change. He was pretty consistent in -his behavior from the very first time I met him until Comeaux's Bar, -so this was the only notable change I observed. The manner was always -guarded, even from the very first when he came out on his porch on -August 17 in his dungarees, his manner was guarded. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it guarded in Comeaux's? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. This was much more relaxed? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Considerably. - -Mr. JENNER. Following that tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar for about an -hour, did you ever see Oswald after that? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That was the last time I ever saw him. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the next time you heard of Oswald? - -Mr. STUCKEY. On November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion? - -Mr. STUCKEY. The assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. JENNER. How was it raised, what brought it to your attention? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I was watching a TV news broadcast at the time, and they -had a bulletin in which they said a suspect had been arrested in the -assassination, and they mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald, and I fell to the -ground practically; I was surprised. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a video tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Following the debate show of August 21, Bill Slatter, -the radio announcer, decided that some news had been made that night -on the show, so he took Oswald back to the studio to repeat some of -the statements he had made on the radio show for video tape. And they -interviewed Oswald for quite a while, I would say for 5 minutes. But I -understand that that night they only ran a brief excerpt of that tape, -and the rest of it they threw away. - -Mr. JENNER. The station has supplied us with what tape they did not -throw away, the video tape. - -Mr. STUCKEY. They are not throwing away anything at that station any -more, by the way, now. - -Mr. JENNER. I suppose not. Without speculation on your part, if you -have a recollection, do you recall whether he was right handed or left -handed? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I don't recall. I don't believe that he ever had the -opportunity to use his hand in such a way you could identify it. I -never saw him writing. - -Mr. JENNER. At least you never noticed it one way or the other? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he smoke? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; he did not smoke. Again, this was part of my--of -the impression of him that struck me. He seemed like somebody that -took very good care of himself, very prudent, temperate, that sort of -person. It was my impression Oswald regarded himself as living in a -world of intellectual inferiors. - -Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. And on what do you base that, -please? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Well, I base a lot of this on the conversation that we -had in Comeaux's Bar. After all, I had paid some attention to Oswald, -nobody else had particularly, and he seemed to enjoy talking with -somebody he didn't regard as a stupid person, and it was my impression -he thought that everybody else he had come in contact with was rather -cloddish, and got the impression that he thought that he had--his -philosophy, the way he felt about things, all this sort of thing, most -people just could not understand this, and only an intelligent or -educated person could. I don't mean to say that there was any arrogance -in his manner. There was just--well, you can spot intelligence, or -at least I can, I think, and this was a man who was intelligent, who -was aware that he was intelligent, and who would like to have an -opportunity to express his intelligence--that was my impression. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you obtain of this man with respect to -his volatility, that is, did you get any impression that he was quick -to anger? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; very well-disciplined, as a matter of fact. After all, -he had been provoked on several occasions that afternoon by Bringuier -and Butler on the show. - -Mr. JENNER. Or that evening. - -Mr. STUCKEY. That evening; yes. And, of course, Bringuier's attempt -to convert him to the cause of Revolutionary Students Directorate was -presented in a rather biting way, and Oswald just took it, and just -more or less told him that he wasn't interested, whereas other people -might have gotten a little mad. After all, you have to recognize that -Oswald--they were ganging up on him. There were a bunch of us around -there. There were three people who disagreed with him, and he was only -one man, and the fact that he kept his composure with this type of -environment indicates discipline. - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. Now, I show you a Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. -Do you see Mr. Oswald shown on that exhibit? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a mark or something over his head? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; there is a green cross of some sort. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. There is a man to his left, there is an arrow, a -vertical arrow, over that man's head. Do you recognize that person? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Far to the left, the most extreme left, of the picture is -another man with dark glasses on. He has a green vertical stripe over -his head. Do you recognize him? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of the man with the vertical arrow above -his head is a tall rather husky young fellow whose back is turned. Do -you, by any chance, recognize him? - -Mr. STUCKEY. This one? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. STUCKEY. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the general question do you recognize -anybody depicted on Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A other than Oswald? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Oswald is the only person I recognize in that picture. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Do you recognize Oswald -on that picture? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he has the green mark above his head. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the vertical mark and it is the only mark on that -photograph, is it not? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the group of men on that -photograph in which Oswald is a part although his back is to the group, -do you recognize any of those men shown on that photograph? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; I recognize nobody. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the right side of the girl there are some ladies. Do -you recognize any of them? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I was just looking over that. One of them looks vaguely -familiar, but--no; I would have to say. No; I don't know the women. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the vicinity or place shown? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is the front of the International Trade Mart -Building on Common and Camp Streets in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. If I may have that tape so I can put an exhibit number on -it---- - -Mr. STUCKEY. Do you want to take it now rather than go through all the -letter-writing proceedings? - -Mr. JENNER. I am not going to take it, but I am going to mark it and -give it back to you. I don't want to have possession of it. I just want -to look to see---- - -Mr. STUCKEY. Would it be easier for the Commission if it were made into -a record rather than a tape? I have a record that I have made, my own -personal record. - -Mr. JENNER. I will inquire about that. It possibly might be better. You -mean a platter, a disc? - -Mr. STUCKEY. A platter, a disc. - -Mr. JENNER. I suppose a tape is easier to preserve. A hundred years -from now this tape would be just as true as it is today, that is -assuming it is kept under good conditions, whereas a platter might -deteriorate. - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is true. - -Mr. JENNER. So I think we had better have the tape. - -Mr. STUCKEY. The disc would start decomposing after about the 25th time -you played them, and also they get scratched and such. But one thing -is you can't erase a record and you can erase a tape. That is the kind -of nightmares you have with a tape. I was afraid to have a copy made -of that thing for a long time just out of fear somebody might make a -mistake and it would be erased. - -Mr. JENNER. You have insured against that by your disk, a platter? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stuckey, was a recording made on audio tape of the -37-minute interview that you had with Mr. Oswald on Monday, the 17th of -August? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have made one record which is strictly for my own -use. - -Mr. JENNER. You say you made it? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it it was made for you by somebody? - -Mr. STUCKEY. It was made for me by Cosimo's Recording Studio in New -Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. From what source was the tape made by the commercial -company you have named? - -Mr. STUCKEY. From---- - -Mr. JENNER. What was used to make the tape? Did you have a tape and you -made a copy of the tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; they took my original tape and from that they made the -disc. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. We are a little confused here. You have an audio -tape of the 37-minute interview, do you? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And you also have a wax disk? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. It is the wax disk which is the disk recording from the -original tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is the wax disk that was made by the commercial -people you have named? - -Mr. STUCKEY. True. - -Mr. JENNER. What I am getting at, Mr. Stuckey, was an audio tape -transcript made of your interview with him on the 17th of August 1963? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Who made the original tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. The original tape was made by WDSU radio in the studios of -WDSU, and the engineer doing the taping was Mr. Al Campin. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know what happened to that original tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have it; it is in my possession. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you bring it with you today? - -Mr. STUCKEY. No; this is a copy which you have in your hand. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you bring a copy of that tape, which is Stuckey Exhibit -No. 4? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct? - -Mr. JENNER. From what source did you obtain the original tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. From WDSU. When the management of WDSU decided not to run -that tape but instead to have the debate, the second show, then they -gave me the tape. - -Mr. JENNER. What is now marked as Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 is a -reproduction on tape of the original tape? - -Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Who made the reproduction which is Stuckey Exhibit No. 4? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Cosimo's Recording Studio. - -Mr. JENNER. Where are they located? Do you happen offhand to recall the -address? - -Mr. STUCKEY. It is on Governor Nichol's Street in the 500 block. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the full name of that company? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; Cosimo's Recording Studio, I believe it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have more than one tape reproduction made of that? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have had--how many do I have? I have two copies and -the record in addition to the original tape, so there are four pieces -of, four items involved. - -Mr. JENNER. You will recall, Mr. Stuckey, that you were good enough -when I was in New Orleans to take me over to the radio station, what is -the name of it again? - -Mr. STUCKEY. WDSU. - -Mr. JENNER. WDSU, and there was played in my presence and in my hearing -a tape transcript of your 37-minute interview with Oswald on the 17th -of August 1963. Is the tape which I have in my hand, marked Stuckey -Exhibit No. 4, the tape that was played that evening in my presence? - -Mr. STUCKEY. It is. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is in the same condition now as it was at the time I -heard it? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. It is in the same condition now as it was when it was -prepared by Cosimo's? - -Mr. STUCKEY. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Subject to my understanding with you that you will receive -a communication from Mr. Rankin respecting the preservation of this -tape against commercial use, I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 in evidence. -I am going to return the tape to you so that there will be no question -in your mind but what, in the meantime, until you do receive Mr. -Rankin's letter, that the tape has been in your possession, and no one -has made, surreptitiously or otherwise by accident or any fashion, a -copy of it. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Very good. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I will state for the record, Mr. Reporter, that in -an off-the-record discussion with Mr. Stuckey respecting the audio tape -of the interview of August 17, 1963, Stuckey Exhibit No. 4, Mr. Stuckey -has agreed that he will supply or return, let us say, Exhibit No. 4 to -us upon his receipt of a communication from Mr. Rankin, as counsel for -the Commission, that the tape when redelivered to us and becomes part -of the record of the Commission, will not be subjected to use for any -commercial purpose and reproduction. - -Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to ask for one qualification. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STUCKEY. I would like my attorney to read over the letter before---- - -Mr. JENNER. Of course. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Before sending you the tape, and in case we suggest -possibly some changes---- - -Mr. JENNER. I think that is wise. Since I am returning the tape to you, -why, I am sure you won't send it back unless your counsel is satisfied -that you are reasonably protected, because we appreciate the fact that -this is personal property and that it has some commercial value to -you and, frankly, we would be a little bit surprised if you were not -concerned about preserving that. - -I think that is all. Is there anything that you would like to add, that -you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of -the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I think we have covered just about everything. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Certainly all the hard facts. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that? - -Mr. STUCKEY. I say certainly all the hard facts. The rest is just a lot -of speculation and such. - -Mr. JENNER. One other thing. Give Bringuier's physical description, -describe Bringuier physically to me, please. - -Mr. STUCKEY. Describe Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. No; Bringuier. - -Mr. STUCKEY. He is about 5 feet 10 inches. He is not particularly -dark-skinned, although his hair is black, his eyes are brown. He has -the beginnings of a paunch, although his build is generally rather -slender; he wears glasses, smokes cigars. I can't think of a thing else. - -Mr. JENNER. OK. I guess that is about it. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF HORACE ELROY TWIFORD - -The following affidavit was executed by Horace Elroy Twiford on July -11, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Harris, ss_: - -I, Horace Elroy Twiford, 7018 Schley Street, Houston, Texas, being duly -sworn say: - -1. I have been a resident of Houston since May, 1956, and I am a -merchant seaman. I am a member of the Socialist Labor Party. - -2. The first time I ever heard of Lee Harvey Oswald was in July 1963, -when The Headquarters of the Socialist Labor Party in New York wrote me -that Oswald had requested literature. The New York Headquarters usually -furnishes me with the names of any persons in the Texas area who make -inquiries about the Socialist Labor Party. I then routinely mailed -Oswald literature concerning the Socialist Labor Party to a box number -in Dallas appearing on Twiford Exhibit No. 1. I had my return address -on the envelope containing the material I sent to Oswald. - -3. Twiford Exhibit No. 1 is the envelope which Oswald sent to the -Socialist Labor Party in New York, and which they in turn sent to me. - -4. The handwritten note across the front of this envelope, containing -the words "Labor Day issue WP, 9/11/63" is in my handwriting and -indicates that I mailed to Oswald on September 11, 1963, the Labor Day -issue of the "Weekly People." I do not recall if this was the first -time I sent him material. - -5. I recollect having flown home to visit my wife on September 27, -1963, from New Orleans, Louisiana, where the S.S. Del Monte, the ship -upon which I was working, was docked. Either at this time or on October -1, when the S.S. Del Monte reached Houston, my wife told me that a L. -H. Oswald had called and asked for me during the week. My wife had -written his name and the words "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" on a -piece of paper in order to mention the telephone call. - -6. I recollect that my wife told me that this telephone call had taken -place during the week preceding my visit home. I had been home on the -previous weekend, and neither at that time nor prior thereto had my -wife said anything about a telephone call from Oswald. - -7. I have never seen nor heard from Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Signed this 11th day of July 1964. - - (S) Horace Elroy Twiford, - HORACE ELROY TWIFORD. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. ESTELLE TWIFORD - -The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. Estelle Twiford on July 2, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Harris, ss_: - -I, Mrs. Estelle Twiford, 7018 Schley Street, Houston, Texas, being duly -sworn say: - -1. I am the wife of Horace Elroy Twiford. - -2. In late September of 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald telephoned my house and -asked to speak to my husband. I told him that my husband was at sea. -Oswald inquired as to how my husband had his address. He also said that -he had hoped to discuss ideas with my husband for a few hours before -he flew down to Mexico. He said he only had a few hours. I assume he -was calling from the Houston area since he did not, to my knowledge, -place a long distance call. However, he did not specifically say that -he was in Houston. I have no information concerning his whereabouts -when this call was placed. I told him if he desired to correspond with -my husband, he could direct a letter to 7018 Schley Street, Houston, -Texas, and I would see that my husband received it. - -3. I cannot recall the date of the call, but I think it occurred during -the week prior to the weekend my husband flew home to visit me from New -Orleans where his ship was docked. I recall, my husband had shipped out -the weekend prior to the call. - -4. I cannot recall the exact time he called, but I think that it was in -the evening, sometime between 7:00 and 10:00 o'clock. I was not working -during this period. - -5. I wrote down on a slip of paper that Oswald had called and that he -mentioned he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I did -this in order to remember to tell my husband about the call. I told my -husband about the call on the weekend he visited me. I have initialed -and released note made of telephone call. (To Secret Service.) - -6. Oswald did not state what he was going to Mexico for, nor did he -state how long he would be there. - -7. Other than the above mentioned telephone call, I have never had any -contact with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -8. I am not a member of the Socialist Labor Party. - -Signed this 2d day of July 1964. - - (S) Mrs. Estelle Twiford, - MRS. ESTELLE TWIFORD. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF VIRGINIA H. JAMES - -The testimony of Virginia H. James was taken at 2:15 p.m., on June -17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. -William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. Thomas Ehrlich, Special Assistant to the Legal -Adviser, Department of State, was present. - - -Mr. COLEMAN. Miss James, would you state your name for the record? - -Miss JAMES. Virginia H. James. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you mind raising your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, -the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Miss JAMES. I do. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Miss James, as you know, you are the International -Relations Officer, Office of Soviet Affairs, in the Department of -State. You will be asked to testify about your actions with respect to -Oswald concerning his attempt to return to the United States commencing -in 1961, and his attempt to secure a visa for his wife, Marina. - -You will also be questioned concerning your actions in connection with -obtaining a waiver of Section 243(g) of the Immigration and Nationality -Act for Marina, and what part, if any, you had in getting the Bureau -of Immigration and Naturalization to reverse its initial decision to -refuse such waiver. And I will also ask you a few questions on whether -you have any knowledge concerning actions taken by the Department in -1959 when Oswald first attempted to renounce his American citizenship. -Would you state for the record your present address? - -Miss JAMES. 2501 Q Street NW. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Are you presently employed by the Federal Government? - -Miss JAMES. I am employed by the Department of State in the Office of -Soviet Union Affairs. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What is your official title? - -Miss JAMES. International Relations Officer. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you occupy that position from 1959 through to date? - -Miss JAMES. I did; and do still. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I have shown you, and I take it you are generally familiar -with, the resolution of Congress which was adopted by Congress in -connection with this Commission. - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. To the best of your present knowledge, Miss James, could -you tell me the first time you heard the name Oswald? - -Miss JAMES. When I read a copy of the telegram from the American -Embassy at Moscow, dated, as I recall, October 30, 1959, saying that -Oswald had called at the Embassy and had attempted to renounce his -American citizenship. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you accept my suggestion if I told you that that -telegram was dated October 31 rather than the 30th? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Why did you receive, obtain or see a copy of the telegram? - -Miss JAMES. To begin with, it is my function in the Department of State -in the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, to handle matters relating to -visas, issuance of visas and passport matters from the political angle -only. - -Mr. COLEMAN. For what area? - -Miss JAMES. For the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, and it is part of -our responsibility to know what goes on in the American Embassy in -Moscow, and to see how it is handled in order that we can continue -our function of advising, helping and assisting so it is routine for -our office to get a copy of all these telegrams. Practically every -telegram that goes back and forth between the Embassy in Moscow and the -Department, both ways, comes through our office. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What did you do after you received the telegram, or saw a -copy of the telegram? - -Miss JAMES. I think we took no action at that time. We read it with -a great deal of interest, as we do all of this type of case of a -potential defector, and a person who is an American citizen who is -renouncing American citizenship is very unusual. I don't recall any -action except that I know it was a source, I mean the subject of -unhappy conversation in the office, to see this man carrying on this -type of action. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You knew, didn't you, that within 2 or 3 days after the -telegram was received, that the State Department sent a reply to the -Embassy? - -Miss JAMES. I must have seen it. I notice from the file copy I cleared -it, but I don't remember that exact telegram. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 916, which is a copy of -the telegram. - -Miss JAMES. I recall this. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You do recall it? - -Miss JAMES. I do. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall clearing the text of it? - -Miss JAMES. I can't recall clearing the text of it, but I am perfectly -sure that it was a natural thing for me to clear the text. - -Mr. COLEMAN. They normally would clear it with your office? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And so, therefore, when it is recorded in the lower -left-hand corner that it had been cleared with you, you have no doubt -of the accuracy of that statement? - -Miss JAMES. I have no reason to doubt. - -Mr. COLEMAN. The accuracy of that statement? - -Miss JAMES. Because we, the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, try to get -all offices in the Department to clear everything that is going to -Moscow. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After clearing the telegram, what was the next time that -you had anything to do with the name Oswald, to the best of your -knowledge? - -Miss JAMES. As I recall, we had a copy of the report that came in from -the Embassy telling more in detail about his appearance at the Embassy, -and I also read it in the Washington papers. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Could we mark as James Exhibit No. 1, and I show you--a -reference sheet from Bernice Waterman to EE:SOV, Virginia James, under -date of November 25, 1959, and I ask you do you remember seeing that -reference sheet? - -(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 1 for -identification.) - -Miss JAMES. Yes; I remember seeing it in this form [pointing to -document in the file]. - -Mr. COLEMAN. That [James Exhibit No. 1] is a photostatic copy? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; I mean the yellow [copy in the file] I recall. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you know why you asked them to send you a copy of the -telegram of November 2? - -Miss JAMES. Again, it is in accordance with my continuing -responsibility to follow these cases of visa and passport matters, -and the only way we can be informed is to have all the incoming and -outgoing correspondence. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After you received that document which has been marked as -James Exhibit No. 1, did you receive other material from Miss Waterman -in connection with Oswald during the period November 2, 1959, to July -1961? - -Miss JAMES. I don't recall having received anything from Miss Waterman, -but I am sure that we would have had copies of anything coming back and -forth, back from the Embassy on the case which we would have read. - -Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, you would say that you or someone in your -office should have received in the normal course every Embassy Despatch -dealing with Oswald that went to the Department of State? - -Miss JAMES. Routine. In fact, it would have been out of order if we -hadn't gotten it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you early in December 1959 draft a letter for Mr. -Davis' signature to Mr. Snyder dealing with the general question of how -he should handle people who want to renounce their citizenship in the -Soviet Union? - -Miss JAMES. May I ask is that the letter in which we tried to give him -helpful advice in handling cases of people who tried to renounce? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. - -Miss JAMES. Yes; and, as I recall--if it is the letter I think--it -included several paragraphs that had been contributed by Mr. Hickey in -the Passport Office. I am not sure that is the one. I would like to see -it, please. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I show you a photostatic copy of a letter which has -already been marked Commission Exhibit No. 915. It is from Nathaniel -Davis to Richard E. Snyder, and it is under date of December 10, 1959, -and it is State Department File Document No. XIII-40. I ask you whether -you drafted that letter. - -Miss JAMES. As I recall, I did. I am sure I did, in fact. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You were replying to Mr. Snyder's letter to Mr. Boster, -under date of October 28, 1959, which has already been marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 914, is that correct? - -Miss JAMES. As I read this letter, it didn't refer specifically to the -Oswald case. - -Mr. COLEMAN. That is because the Oswald case hadn't yet occurred. - -Miss JAMES. Yes; I mean the effect of renouncing. I mean it had no -relation; yes. He had called that in. Yes; I remember that. This isn't -the one, though. You just handed me one by Mr. Snyder to Mr. Davis. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. - -Miss JAMES. Now, you asked me if I drafted it. I did draft it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Miss James, I take it that after you drafted the letter of -December 10, Commission Exhibit No. 915, that from that time until some -time in July 1961 that you had no knowledge of any actions with respect -to Oswald. - -Miss JAMES. As I recall, I did not, unless, as I say, there had been -something in from Moscow in the ordinary routine way it would have gone -across my desk. - -Mr. COLEMAN. On July 11, 1961, or shortly thereafter, perhaps on July -12, the State Department received a Foreign Service Despatch dated July -11, 1961, from the American Embassy in Moscow, which has already been -marked as Commission Exhibit No. 935. I show you a photostatic copy -of Commission Exhibit No. 935 and ask you whether you have seen the -original or a copy of that document? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; I recall this. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, after you saw that, what did you do? - -Miss JAMES. As I recall, at that time, in 1961, through that period -there were several persons in the Soviet Union who attempted or could -be placed in the category of defectors. Webster was one, these various -people that Mr. Snyder mentioned, and this was a very serious question. -We discussed these matters in our office, and so when we saw this, -we immediately were interested in it, and the most important thing -to our mind was what answer is going to be made to it. So I think I -called Miss Waterman and wanted to know what the Passport Office, what -action they were going to take on the letter, and told her that SOV was -interested and we wanted to clear it, as I recall. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you speak first to Mr. Boster about it? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; I would have talked to Mr. Boster about this. He was -interested in it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Who is he? - -Miss JAMES. He was officer in charge of our office at that time. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Was he your superior? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What did you tell Miss Waterman? - -Miss JAMES. As I recall, I would not have made any policy, any effort -to judge what they would do, but I would only say we want to know what -action you are going to take. That is the way I recall that I would -handle it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you say that the Passport Office was the only office -of the State Department whose communications to Moscow are not cleared -in the SOV? - -Miss JAMES. Miss Waterman says I did, and I wouldn't be surprised if I -had said it. I know we all felt many times that we would like to have -had more of the communications cleared with us, and I have no doubt -that I must have said it if she said I did. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall her replying that she had never heard -that---- - -Miss JAMES. Yes; I do remember at one time she said she didn't recall -that this was a necessity, that they had to clear everything with us. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But she did tell you that she would put a memorandum in -the file to show that there was a special interest of the SOV in the -reply to the Embassy Despatch of July 11? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What was the special interest of the SOV? - -Miss JAMES. Again, it is the same interest I outlined before, which -is our responsibility of advising and knowing what is going on in the -Embassy in Moscow. We are the political office. We are responsible for -the Embassy, and we work together very closely, and we want to be sure -that what they send in is answered, how it is answered, and it is our -routine way of working to be sure that any despatch is answered, and -especially one of this type where we are interested in the case because -of the nature of the case. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I show you an operations memorandum from the Department of -State to the American Embassy in Moscow, dated August 18, 1961, which -has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 939, and I ask you -if you saw a copy of that memorandum at or around the time when it was -sent, namely in August 1961? - -Miss JAMES. My reply is we should have seen it, but whether we did or -not I don't think we did according to this file. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You are saying there is nothing on the file which -indicates that you got a copy. - -Miss JAMES. Nothing on the file that indicates we had it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You said that---- - -Miss JAMES. But I think we must have known that they made this decision. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with the making of the -decision? - -Miss JAMES. No; I don't think I can say we had anything to do with the -making of the decision. Those matters are legal decisions, and the -Passport Office would make it on the basis of their information. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You or your office never called, to the best of your -knowledge---- - -Miss JAMES. To needle them on to make it? No. - -Mr. COLEMAN. To make it one way or the other? - -Miss JAMES. No. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell me from your file the next document that -you looked at after receiving a copy of the Embassy despatch of July -11, 1961? - -Miss JAMES. I have some notes I think will help me better than the file -which isn't in chronological order. I think it would have been the -Embassy report asking for a security advisory opinion on Mrs. Oswald's -visa application, which would be August 28, 1961, Commission No. -X-26---- - -Mr. COLEMAN. You mean State Department number. - -Miss JAMES. I say, State Department No. X-26(2). - -Mr. COLEMAN. Can the record show that the Commission exhibit number on -that document is Commission Exhibit No. 944. - -Now, you say you received a copy of the August 28, 1961---- - -Miss JAMES. Yes, sir; I received that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Operations memorandum---- - -Miss JAMES. Twenty-five. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, after you received a copy, what did you do? - -Miss JAMES. I have no exact remembrance of that, but I can tell you -what my practice is. In receiving a document like this, and we have -many cases similar, I keep it some place handy, and I will check with -the Visa Office and see what they are going to do about it, and are -they going to--are they handling it. Then we follow through to see if -she is passed by the various security offices. We are aware when these -come in that a person has an exit visa. This time it was before the -exit visa, I think. Yes--well, we were trying to get this case prepared -so it wouldn't be held up in Moscow because of investigations that -might be delayed on this side. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Why would you do that? - -Miss JAMES. Only because it is our regular practice to expedite these -matters. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Wouldn't that depend upon whether the case was meritorious -or not? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; but I mean as a general thing we would expedite, -hoping it would be expedited until it its turned down. Then if it is -turned down, that is the end of it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What you are saying is that SOV just wants to make sure -that all the paperwork gets done, that you are really not making the -decisions but you don't want any decision held up on the ground that -the papers aren't there, but you have no particular interest which way -the decision would be made? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; we have an interest in that. We know from our policy -what we think is good for the U.S. Government, and we would hope that -cases are handled in that framework. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you say that there was a decision in the Oswald case -that the best thing for the United States was to get Oswald out of -Moscow, Russia, and back to the United States, even if he had renounced -his citizenship? - -Miss JAMES. I can't go on that because that is a supposition, but -on the basis of the case we felt that it was better for the U.S. -Government to bring Oswald back. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Who made that decision? - -Miss JAMES. Again, that is our general policy. When we received this -OMV asking for an advisory opinion on Mrs. Oswald's visa application, -we already knew that the Passport Office had approved her husband's -citizenship. - -Mr. COLEMAN. So you say, therefore, that once it was clear that Oswald -was still an American citizen, that you felt it was to the interests of -the United States? - -Miss JAMES. Of the United States? - -Mr. COLEMAN. To get him out of Russia? - -Miss JAMES. To get him out of the Soviet Union, and also to bring his -family. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, could you look in file No. VIII of the State -Department, Document No. 21. Is that a telegram? - -Miss JAMES. No; that is a wire. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you read what it says? Will you describe to whom it -is sent and tell me what it means? - -Miss JAMES. It says, it is addressed to the American Embassy in Moscow -and refers to this request for an advisory opinion---- - -Mr. COLEMAN. It has typed thereon: SOV, Miss James. You signed it, -didn't you? - -Miss JAMES. No; this was the Visa Office telegram, and in fact I didn't -initial that telegram. It has my name on it, but Mr. Owen initialed it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Does it have your name? - -Miss JAMES. It has my name typed on it, but Mr. Owen initialed it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. On October 3, 1961, a cable was sent to the Embassy in -Moscow having something to do with Oswald. Would you indicate for the -record what the cable said? - -Miss JAMES. As I understand it, the cable authorized the American -Embassy in Moscow to issue a visa to Mrs. Oswald if when she appeared -there was nothing against her otherwise derogatory, and the cable also -indicated that her membership in the Trade Union would not affect the -issuance of a visa, that such membership did not indicate that she was -a Communist. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, the cable or the copy that I have seen indicates that -it was typed by you, at least your name appears on it. - -Miss JAMES. No; it was drafted by the Visa Office, drafted by V. Smith, -typed by initials RLC, signed in the Visa Office by Frank L. Auerbach, -and sent to the Soviet Desk, Office of Soviet Union Affairs, for -clearance, typed "SOV Miss James" and in parentheses "(in substance)," -and I apparently was out that day and it has Mr. Owen's initials on it, -and there is another initial which I don't identify, but mine are not -on that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But to the best of your recollection you never saw that or -had anything to do with it? - -Miss JAMES. Never saw that cable, but I was aware that they approved it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Had there been some discussion of the operation memorandum -of August 28, 1961, Commission Exhibit No. 944, in your office as to -whether Mrs. Marina Oswald was eligible for a nonquota immigrant visa? - -Miss JAMES. I don't recall any special detailed discussion, except -that this was a case, an unusual case, which we would be interested in -following. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Were you the one in the office who had the initial contact -with the INS, in connection with the waiver of section 243(g)? - -Miss JAMES. As I recall, I had no contact with INS at that time. -I never remember discussing these cases directly with INS. Our -conversations were all with the Visa Office. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You dealt directly with the Visa Office? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Is Mr. Crump in your office? - -Miss JAMES. I was going to say I dealt with Mr. Crump in the Visa -Office at that time. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But he is not in your office? - -Miss JAMES. No; he was in the Visa Office, now assigned abroad. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you know that the Visa Office had made a request of -INS to get it to, (1) determine whether Mrs. Oswald was eligible to -come into the country, and, (2) whether it would waive the section -243(g) provision? I just asked you, Miss James, what you knew. When was -the first time you knew that---- - -Miss JAMES. When Mr. Crump told me that INS had approved the petition -of the husband but had not approved the request for waiver of section -No. 243(g). - -Mr. COLEMAN. Prior to that time, you had nothing to do with the visa -request or the section 243(g) waiver? - -Miss JAMES. No; I don't recall having anything to do with it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall---- - -Miss JAMES. As I recall, it was a surprise to me that it was refused. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you had nothing to do with the first petition? - -Miss JAMES. No. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You weren't the one that sent the petition from the -Department of State to INS? - -Miss JAMES. No; that is routine visa work. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall when Mr. Crump informed you that INS had -refused to grant the waiver under section 243(g)? - -Miss JAMES. I don't recall the date. I do recall his informing me that -they had had this information from INS that the petition was approved, -but that the section 243(g) waiver was not approved and, therefore, -it looked as though Mrs. Oswald would not be able to come directly to -the United States. If she came at all she would have to go via another -country that did not have this sanction against it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Could you explain for the record just what the sanction is -under section 243(g)? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; the sanction is that the United States will not -issue an immigration visa to a citizen of a country which refuses to -accept a deportee from the United States based on the reasoning that -if you can't deport to that country, if a person turns out to be an -unsatisfactory immigrant, you are stuck with that immigrant. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Does that mean that the person cannot come into the United -States? - -Miss JAMES. No; it means that Mrs. Oswald could have gone to Belgium, -France, England, any other country that accepts deportees, and applied -for an immigration visa and have been admitted without any question on -a section 243(g) waiver. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I have marked as James Exhibit No. 2 a memorandum from -Robert I. Owen to John E. Crump, under date of March 16, 1962, and -the subject of the memorandum is: "Operation of sanctions imposed by -Section 243(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act in case of Mrs. -Marina N. Oswald." - -(The document referred to was marked James Deposition Exhibit No. 2, -for identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you prepare the original of that memorandum. - -Miss JAMES. Yes; I prepared it under Mr. Owen's supervision. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall Mr. Owen asking you to prepare it? - -Miss JAMES. This was my responsibility, this case, but I had long -discussions with Mr. Owen on the case as to how we should proceed with -it before I wrote the memorandum. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And Mr. Owen told you, "Why don't you draft a memorandum -for Mr. Crump explaining to him the situation?" - -Miss JAMES. We came to agreement in a talk as to how to handle the -case, and I drafted the memorandum which would go to Mr. Crump because -he was the officer in the Visa Office handling the case. - -Mr. COLEMAN. In the third paragraph of the memorandum it is stated -that: "SOV believes it is in the interest of the U.S. to get Lee Harvey -Oswald and his family out of the Soviet Union and on their way to -this country soon. An unstable character, whose actions are entirely -unpredictable, Oswald may well refuse to leave the USSR or subsequently -attempt to return there if we should make it impossible for him to be -accompanied from Moscow by his wife and child." - -Did you draft that? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Was this language that Mr. Owen had discussed with you and -told you to put in the memorandum? - -Miss JAMES. My way of working is to draft a memorandum in rough draft. -I give it to Mr. Owen. He and I--he might well have put in some few -words. I don't know just where he would have changed it or whether he -did change it. I can't say. It is impossible to say at this time unless -I had the original draft, but I know he was in agreement with this. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Were you the one that brought up the point that Oswald was -an unstable character, or was that something Mr. Owen contributed? - -Miss JAMES. I believe the Department--I will say our office was sure -that he was an unstable character by the very fact that he had tried -to renounce his American citizenship, and then come--by the fact he -had tried to renounce his American citizenship, makes him an unstable -character to me. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Was it your thought that once he got out of Russia and -back into the United States, that we wouldn't let him go back again? - -Miss JAMES. I think we would have--I would have, based on my work in -the office, I would have hoped we would have done everything to keep -him from going back. Whether the passport regulations would have made -this possible, I don't know. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You never wrote a memorandum to the Passport Office, -though? - -Miss JAMES. No; that if he applies again, don't let him go back--no; we -did not. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Why didn't you do that in the light of the fact---- - -Miss JAMES. Because there was no reason at this time. He was in the -Soviet Union trying to get out, and it would not have occurred to me to -predict that 5 years from now he might want to go back and we should -put a stop on his passport. In fact, I don't ever recall taking such -action. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After you drafted this memorandum, did you send the -telegram to the Embassy which you suggest in the last paragraph should -be sent? - -Miss JAMES. I did not send any telegram as far as I know. If it had -been sent, it would have been sent by the Visa Office on the basis of -our recommendation. I would assume if they agreed to this memorandum, -they sent it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Was the memorandum which I have marked as James Exhibit -No. 2 in any way motivated or written as a result of the telegram dated -March 15, 1962, which you received from the Embassy in Moscow, which -says: "Please advise when decision on petition in 243(g) waiver Lee -Oswald wife may be expected," which I have marked as James Exhibit No. -3 and am showing you a copy of it. - -(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 3 for -identification.) - -Miss JAMES. May I have you repeat that question again, please? - -Mr. COLEMAN. I am asking you was the memorandum of March 16, 1962, -drafted by you, which we have marked as James Exhibit No. 2, in any way -motivated by the telegram from the Embassy dated March 15, which I have -marked as James Exhibit No. 3? It came out of State Department file -IV-13. - -Miss JAMES. My memory is that it was not motivated in entirety, -although undoubtedly the telegram brought the case to our attention. -As I recall in those days or weeks preceding March 16, I had been in -conversation with Mr. Crump and Mr. Owen and I had been discussing the -case, and I cannot be sure, but I believe that we would have had this -in our mind before the telegram came in. But undoubtedly the telegram -would make us expedite the writing of this memorandum. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After you wrote the memorandum of March 16, 1961, did you -draft the letter which Mr. Crump sent to INS, asking it to reconsider -its original decision that it would not waive section 243(g)? - -Miss JAMES. May I see a copy of that letter? You asked me if I drafted -it? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. - -Miss JAMES. No; I did not draft it, but I believe some of the reasoning -in the letter was based on the memorandum from SOV. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Can you tell me who drafted it? - -Miss JAMES. Mr. Crump has his initials on the file copy. Again, I -didn't clear that outgoing letter. Mr. Owen cleared it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you draft a memorandum from Mr. Hale to Mr. -Cieplinski, dated March 20, 1962, or did Mr. Crump draft that? - -Miss JAMES. Mr. Crump drafted that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. March 20, 1962. - -Miss JAMES. We have March 23 from Hale to Cieplinski. It was drafted on -the 20th, apparently sent on the 23d. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I will mark as James Exhibit No. 3-A a memorandum from Mr. -Hale to Mr. Cieplinski in re immigrant visa of Mrs. Marina H. Oswald, -and ask you whether you have seen a copy of that document. - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You got a copy, but you didn't draft it? - -Miss JAMES. No; you said, did I see a copy of it, I thought. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Yes; and is that the same document that you described as -the memorandum dated March 23? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After the memorandum---- - -Miss JAMES. May I have a moment, please, to read this letter that they -sent to the INS? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Sure. - -Miss JAMES. Which I don't remember seeing before. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You didn't draft that letter? - -Miss JAMES. No. Thank you. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You say you didn't draft that? - -Miss JAMES. No; it was drafted in the Visa Office. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you knew that it had gone out, I take it? - -Miss JAMES. I received a copy of it, so, therefore, I knew that they -had sent this to the head of the Special Consular Administration at -that time, SCA. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now after---- - -Miss JAMES. Special Consular Affairs, I beg your pardon. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After that letter was sent out, did you have occasion to -call INS, and ask them to find out what the status of the letter was? - -Miss JAMES. To the best of my memory I never called INS on this case. - -Mr. COLEMAN. My problem is I have a letter here which is from Robinson -to Michael Cieplinski, and it says at the bottom: "5-29-62 Miss James -SOV called to say she had received letter from Mr. Oswald's mother -saying he had written he had no money and was unable to travel." - -Miss JAMES. I would have called the Visa Office on that. That doesn't -mean I called INS. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Oh, I see. All your calls were to the Visa Office? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; in fact, I think I am clear that in saying that there -is a policy that all approaches to INS are through the Visa Office. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I will mark as James Exhibit No. 4 a copy of a letter from -Robert H. Robinson to Mr. Michael Cieplinski, dated May 9, 1962, and I -ask you whether you have seen a copy of that letter. - -(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 4 for -identification.) - -Miss JAMES. I don't recall having seen it at the time. I do recall -reading it in the file prior to my coming to this meeting. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall making the call that they at the bottom said -you made? - -Miss JAMES. I am sure that I did if Mr. Crump put his initials on it. I -don't remember it. I do remember the letter from Mr. Oswald's mother. -In fact, I had some telephone calls from her, also. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you recall receiving a copy of a telegram from the -Embassy at Moscow, which telegram is dated May 4, 1962, which I have -marked as James Exhibit No. 5? - -(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 5 for -identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. Have you seen that telegram? - -Miss JAMES. An information copy came to EUR, which is European Bureau, -and I am sure that that means that an information copy came on down to -the Office of Soviet Union Affairs, and I would have seen it, and that -is why I called to inquire about the case. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And there is a note on there that on May 8, 1962, you -called to inquire about the case and apparently you were told that the -waiver had been granted. - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you know why you made the call? - -Miss JAMES. Well, I would have considered, reading it today, that this -is an urgent telegram from the Embassy in Moscow wanting some action -from the Department, and I would have made the call to try to get done -what the Embassy was pleading for, action one way or the other on this -case. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you clear this with anybody else within the office? - -Miss JAMES. There is nothing to clear on this, only that I called to -find out--I might well have talked to Mr. Owen about this telegram. I -am sure he saw it. The general routing is for telegrams to go through -the officer in charge to the person who handles the specific subject, -but it has been a part of my duty to have called them to---- - -Mr. COLEMAN. And you say that as a result of getting the telegram from -Moscow, that you without consulting with anybody else in the office -would call and find out the status? - -Miss JAMES. I wouldn't have to have any further instruction on that -telegram. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I would then like to show you a document which has been -marked as Commission--James Exhibit No. 7 which is a telegram to the -American Embassy in Moscow, dated May 8, 1962, and ask you whether you -sent that telegram. - -(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 7 for -identification.) - -Miss JAMES. That telegram was sent by the Visa Office of the -Department, and was apparently cleared by me telephonically and -initialed by Mr. Crump as having cleared with me over the telephone. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Oh, I see, Mr. Crump is in the Visa Office? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; now this gives me a lead to another paper back there, -where I said I had not seen it. It had Mr. Owen's initials or some -initials, which I couldn't identify. - -I now identify those initials as Mr. Crump's initials, and, after that, -it said Miss James, in substance. I now realize that he had probably -telephoned to me, cleared it in substance, initialed it, sent it up to -SOV, and Mr. Owen put his initials on it, and I never had my initials -on it for that reason. - -Mr. COLEMAN. In other words, you say that this telegram which I have -marked as James Exhibit No. 7, was actually drafted by Mr. Crump as -a result of Mr. Crump's office finding out that the waiver had been -granted? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. That they called you, told you what they were going to do, -and you said, "Fine," and that is how your name got on the telegram? - -Miss JAMES. That is why my name is there and Mr. Crump's initials above -it show that he was the officer who cleared it with me. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, I take it in the document that I have marked as James -Exhibit No. 8, which is a telegram dated March 20, 1962, in which the -Embassy at Moscow was instructed to "withhold action on Department's -OMV 61" because the sanction is being reconsidered. That telegram also -was not drafted by you, and the only reason why your name appears on it -is that it was cleared with you over the telephone. - -(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 8 for -identification.) - -Miss JAMES. Yes; and, again, although that was cleared, those are my -initials, VHJ, that is my initials. It was apparently cleared over the -phone telephonically and also sent it up to us and Mr. Owen and I each -initialed it, VHJ, and O for Owen. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But the fact that your name appeared on the telegrams -doesn't mean you wrote them? - -Miss JAMES. No; you see, the way the telegrams are in the State -Department, that first line says drafted by, and then underneath is -clearances, and those offices are clearing offices. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And could you identify for me a letter which I have marked -James Exhibit No. 6, which is a letter from Michael Cieplinski to Mr. -Farrell, dated March 27, 1962. I ask you whether that is a copy of the -letter which was sent forward to the Immigration Service asking them to -reconsider the waiver? - -Miss JAMES. This exhibit is a photostatic copy of the file copy which -is in the file I am examining, and it is an exact copy. I did not clear -it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. As far as you know, that is a copy of the letter? - -Miss JAMES. An exact copy; yes. I see the initials are carried through. -Everything is exactly the way the file copy is, the Department's file -copy. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. I would like to mark as James Exhibit No. 9 a transmittal -slip under date of March 16, 1962, and it bears the signature which -purports to be Virginia H. James, and I ask you whether that is your -signature that appears thereon. - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, what occasioned your sending this transmittal slip to -the American Embassy and the attachment? - -Miss JAMES. We wanted the Embassy in Moscow to know what we were doing -on the despatches and telegrams that they sent in, and that we were -in agreement with their recommendation, that we were making these -recommendations to the Visa Office, and this would more or less give -them some assurance that their recommendations were in harmony with our -thinking. This is the way we work, very closely with the Embassy in -Moscow. - -When we are in harmony with what they do, we write memos through the -Department. We frequently send memos to them so they say, "Well, we -have made the right recommendation. The Political Office is supporting -us and now we wait for the other offices in the Department." - -Mr. COLEMAN. Were you aware, did you know, or did you have anything to -do with suggesting to the Embassy that they should try to send Mrs. -Marina Oswald into the country by her first going to Brussels? - -Miss JAMES. No; except that is a regular procedure that we use, we call -it third country procedure. The immigrant can't come directly to the -United States. They do go to another country. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you were not the one to suggest it in the Oswald case? - -Miss JAMES. No; it is established procedure, though. It would not be -unusual for any officer in the Visa Office to think of that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you didn't suggest it? - -Miss JAMES. No; I did not. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, when Mr. Oswald came into the country--when Oswald -left Moscow, I take it you were informed the day he left or the day -after he left, and did you receive a copy of the telegram from Moscow -to the State Department, dated May 31? - -Miss JAMES. Yes; our office received it, SOV. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I have marked that as James Exhibit No. 10. - -(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 10, for -identification.) - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And you then, after he got back, drafted a letter to -Oswald's mother? - -Miss JAMES. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I will mark that as James Exhibit No. 11. - -(The document referred to was marked James Exhibit No. 11 for -identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. This is in file IV, a copy of it. I show you a copy of a -letter from Robert I. Owen to Mrs. Oswald, under date of June 7, 1962, -and ask you whether that is the letter. - -Miss JAMES. Yes; I drafted that letter. I recall it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, in connection with the Oswald case, was there any -instance where you wanted to do one thing but somebody told you no, -something else would have to be done? - -Miss JAMES. In the Oswald case? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. - -Miss JAMES. We worked in harmony on these cases. The Visa Office is -very well--harmonize with SOV policy on these cases. There is no -bickering or unpleasantness or somebody pulling one way or the other. -We seem to go along with them. Every time one comes up they go along in -the regular way based upon established policy. - -Mr. COLEMAN. There was no instance where you said, "I think that this -ought to be done" and somebody said, "I don't care what you think, this -is the way it should be done." - -Miss JAMES. No. - -Mr. COLEMAN. In all these cases you discussed the problem with the Visa -Office and you reached a mutual agreement. You never had a dispute? - -Miss JAMES. I recall no such feeling or reactions. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You had indicated earlier, Miss James, that there was a -general policy in your office to see that husbands and wives were not -separated. Would you want to describe for the record just what that -policy was? - -Miss JAMES. May I go back historically? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. - -Miss JAMES. Since the time we first recognized the Soviet Union, we -have had these cases of separated families, spouses, husbands and -wives and children and other relatives who by some reason or another, -mostly because of the operation of Communist policy, have become -separated from their American citizen families. And from the time we -first recognized the Soviets, this has been a problem there. Files are -filled with notes to the Soviet Government asking them to please issue -exit visas to permit certain relatives to join families in the United -States. This has gone on, and I remember hearing an officer say that if -the result of recognizing the Soviet Union was for no other reason than -to assist these people this was a very powerful reason. During World -War II no visas were issued and nobody traveled and this died. Right -after the war we again had the problem of people trying to get their -relatives out, and the number was greatly increased by Russia taking -over those various countries, Lithuania, Estonia, parts of Poland, -parts of Czechoslovakia, Rumania went into the Soviet Union, and we had -the number greatly enlarged. - -Then, in addition to that, because of war operations, American -citizens were stationed in the Soviet Union and they had married -Soviet women, and so we had pressing cases of correspondents. American -correspondents, a few people assigned to the Embassy in Moscow who -married Soviet wives, probably about 15 or 16 who were very, what we -would call, worthy cases of good marriages and good people who had made -a good marriage with women we thought were good people, and they have -since made good American citizens. - -So in 1953, when Stalin died, we had the first break, and they issued -the visas on this group. And since then we have gone forward with -this. We saw we had a break and so we have been pressing the Soviet -Government to issue visas to clear this problem up. - -In 1959 when Mr. Nixon went there, he was importuned by relatives to -help to get their relatives out, I mean American citizens, and he took -a list of about 80 people, and he agreed to take up these cases, and -we added a number of worthy cases, and Mr. Khrushchev said, "I want to -clear up this problem"--present it through channels. - -Since then, we have presented it through channels and we have succeeded -in getting about 800 relatives of American citizens out. And the -defector's wife falls into that pattern, because while we are not -sympathetic with these people we know that if we refuse to grant U.S. -visas to a wife of an American citizen, the Soviet Government can -immediately say, "Well, we grant visas to these people, exit visas. -Then you don't allow them to go to the United States. What does this -mean?" - -So that was the basis of our whole policy with Marina Oswald, that we -felt that we didn't want to put the Embassy in a position of fighting -for exit visas for relatives, and then when they issue you say, "Well, -this is not quite the kind we want." - -Mr. COLEMAN. In other words, you say that once the Passport Office -made the decision that Oswald was still an American citizen, then your -policy that you don't want to separate husbands and wives came into -play, and if the Soviet Union is willing to let both of them out, that -we will let them come in? - -Miss JAMES. That is the basic policy. That was the whole interest in -our Office, the Embassy in Moscow's primary interest there as far as -Marina Oswald was concerned, and her child. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I have no further questions. - -Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES L. RITCHIE - -The testimony of James L. Ritchie was taken at 12:20 p.m., on June -17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. -William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the -President's Commission, Thomas Ehrlich, Special Assistant to the Legal -Adviser, Department of State, and Carroll H. Seeley, Jr., were present. - - -Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. Ritchie, will you state your full name? - -Mr. RITCHIE. James L. Ritchie. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the -testimony you are about to give is the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I do. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Please state your name and address. - -Mr. RITCHIE. James L. Ritchie, 5010 North 13th Street, Arlington, Va. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Our information is, sir, that some time around October 22, -1963, you had occasion to look at the Oswald file---- - -Mr. RITCHIE. I did. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After the Department received a telegram from the CIA -indicating that Oswald had made an inquiry at the Russian Embassy in -Mexico City, and that you took certain action as a result of looking at -the file? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I did. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And that is what we want to ask you about, sir. But before -I do that, let me ask you a few preliminary questions. - -Mr. RITCHIE. Certainly. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You have given your address, is that correct? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Where are you presently working? - -Mr. RITCHIE. State Department Passport Office, Legal Division. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And what is your position? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Attorney advisor. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And how long have you been in that capacity? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Nine or ten years. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Are you a member of the Bar? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Yes; District of Columbia. - -Mr. COLEMAN. When was the first time you ever heard the name Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. RITCHIE. October 22, 1963. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And would you indicate what occasioned your hearing the -name? - -Mr. RITCHIE. The Security Division transmitted a telegram from the -CIA marked Secret, to the Passport Office. It was received in the -Legal Division October 16, and it had been marked "Mr. Anderson, pull -previous" which means get the file, and it was then handed to me -October 21, approximately. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Who handed it to you? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I don't know. It was placed on my desk. I imagine the -file---- - -Mr. COLEMAN. Prior to that time, you hadn't called for the file? You -knew nothing about the case? - -Mr. RITCHIE. No; I knew nothing about it. It had been placed on my desk -for review. I read the telegram, noted that copies had been sent to -SCA, that is the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs, CMA, Mexico, -the Soviet desk, and the press section of RAR. - -Mr. SEELEY. American Republics Political Division. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Then what did you do after you got the telegram? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I reviewed the entire file. - -Mr. COLEMAN. That means you read every document in the file? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And do you have any idea how long it took you? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Not more than a half hour. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And then what did you do after you read or reviewed the -file? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I don't want to say I read every item. I read the majority. - -Mr. COLEMAN. As a lawyer? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Yes; I glanced over it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You read what you felt was relevant? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Relevant. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you did thumb through every document? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What did you then do? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I made a judgment there was no passport action to be -taken, and marked the file to be filed. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you make a written memorandum? - -Mr. RITCHIE. No, sir; just put "file" on it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you discuss it with Mr. Seeley or anyone else? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I took the file to Mr. Seeley. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you summarize for him what was in the file? - -Mr. RITCHIE. No; I did not. I don't know what my exact words were to -him. I must have said, "Look at this." - -Mr. COLEMAN. Didn't you say to him, "This guy was a defector"? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I don't recall what I said to him, back in October. I know -I said something to him. I directed his attention to it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Then did he discuss it with you? - -Mr. RITCHIE. No. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You put the file on his desk and you didn't have anything -to do with it? - -Mr. RITCHIE. That is right. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Why did you put it on his desk? - -Mr. RITCHIE. He was in charge of the section, and I just brought it to -him for his attention. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you do that with every file that you are asked to -review? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Those files that I thought should be brought to his -attention; yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, you felt that this file was other than just -the routine file that you would look at and put back? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Wouldn't you tell Mr. Seeley something as to why you -thought it was other than routine? - -Mr. RITCHIE. No, sir; I just said "Look at it." I presume I just -directed his attention to the file, and that he should look at it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And then you had no more discussion with him? - -Mr. RITCHIE. None that I can recall. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you say anything to him, like for example, "This guy -the last time he was abroad tried to, or at least threatened that he -would give to the Soviets whatever he had learned in the Marine Corps -with reference to our radar information"? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I have no recollection of my conversation with Mr. Seeley. -All I know is my usual procedure is I review a case. If there is no -passport action to be taken, I place it, mark it "file" and place it in -the box to go to file. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Without Mr. Seeley taking a look at it? - -Mr. RITCHIE. Without Mr. Seeley ever seeing it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And this one you felt---- - -Mr. RITCHIE. And this one I felt he should see. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you didn't give him any memorandum---- - -Mr. RITCHIE. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Or point out what he should look at? - -Mr. RITCHIE. I may have directed his attention to the case, but I have -no independent recollection of it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Then after October 22, 1963, you had no contact with -Oswald, the file or anything else? - -Mr. RITCHIE. No, sir; let me change that. I reviewed the file before I -came here. I have reviewed the file. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Oh, sure. - -That is all. Thank you, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CARROLL HAMILTON SEELEY, JR. - -The testimony of Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr., was taken at 11 a.m., on -June 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. -William T. Coleman, Jr., and W. David Slawson, assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. Thomas Ehrlich, Esq., Special Assistant to the -Legal Adviser, Department of State, and James L. Ritchie, were present. - - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you state your full name, please, sir? - -Mr. SEELEY. Carroll Hamilton Seeley, Jr. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you raise your right hand, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this -deposition is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. SEELEY. I do. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I would like to state that you have been called and -asked to give a deposition because in looking through certain files -supplied us by the State Department, there are indications that you -had something to do with one or more of the documents in the file, and -we also want to ask you concerning what you did after you received -information that a person named Lee Harvey Oswald was at the Soviet -Embassy in Mexico City some time around the first of October. As we -understand it you received such notice on or about the 16th of October. - -Mr. SEELEY. I did see the notice. I think that I saw that notice on the -22d, on October 22, 1963. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Those are the two subjects that we are going to question -you about. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you state your address for the record? - -Mr. SEELEY. My address is 6944 Nashville Road, Lanham, Md. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Are you familiar with the congressional resolution in re -this Commission? - -Mr. SEELEY. I am familiar with the newspaper accounts. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You are familiar with the resolution? - -Mr. SEELEY. I am familiar with it to the extent that I have read in -the newspapers that there is a Commission set up to investigate the -assassination. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you state whether you are presently employed by the -Federal Government? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I am. I am employed with the Department of State. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What is your position with the State Department? - -Mr. SEELEY. I am Assistant Chief of the Legal Division of the Passport -Office of the Department of State. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Who is your immediate superior? - -Mr. SEELEY. Robert D. Johnson, chief counsel. - -Mr. COLEMAN. How long have you had that position? - -Mr. SEELEY. I have been in that position since approximately February -1962. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Prior to February 1962, what was your position? - -Mr. SEELEY. I was Chief of the Security Branch of the Legal Division of -the Passport Office. - -Mr. COLEMAN. How long did you have that job? - -Mr. SEELEY. I had held that job since approximately 1957. - -Mr. COLEMAN. As assistant to Mr. Johnson---- - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What are your duties? - -Mr. SEELEY. My duties are mainly supervisory and to review material -that has been prepared in the Passport Office Legal Division, and on -some occasions to clear information or material that has been prepared -in other divisions of the Passport Office. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I take it you are a lawyer? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Are you a member of the Bar? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Of what State or States? - -Mr. SEELEY. I am a member of the Bar of the District of Columbia. - -Mr. COLEMAN. How long have you been with the Department of State? - -Mr. SEELEY. I have been with the Department of State since 1954. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell me the first time you heard, read or saw -the name Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. SEELEY. Well, Mr. Coleman, I don't have an independent recollection -of that. I feel that probably the name first appears in the file on -March 28, 1961. - -Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, by consulting the file, to refresh your -recollection, you think that the first time you heard or saw the name -Lee Harvey Oswald was in March 1961? - -Mr. SEELEY. It is possible, it may have been that I had heard of it -before, though, because he did have some publicity, and I usually -follow those items, but I don't have any recollection of it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What happened in March 1961, that occasioned your knowing -or hearing the name Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. SEELEY. May I look at the file? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Certainly. - -I take it, sir, you are looking at the file which is the file of the -passport--the original passport file of the State Department. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. That is the file that has been given State Department file -No. X, is that correct? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -The first time my name appears in the file is on a form DS-10, which is -a reference slip, and it is addressed to Mr. Cacciatore in PT-F, and to -Mr. Seeley, in PT-LS. - -It requests to know insofar as I am concerned, should instruction be -classified confidential. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I will mark for the purposes of this deposition a -document as S-1, meaning Seeley Exhibit No. 1, which is the State -Department document which already has been marked by the State -Department as X-45. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 1 for -identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. Who is the reference slip dated March 28, 1961, from? - -Mr. SEELEY. Mr. Kupiec. - -Mr. COLEMAN. To two persons, and you are one of the two persons, Mr. -Seeley, is that correct? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I show you the document which has been marked as S-1 and -ask you is that a copy of the document you referred to? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I take it that you got this because someone asked whether -the instructions should be classified as confidential. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. I don't have an independent recollection of this, -but I assume that it is referring to this instruction which is State -Department's document X-47, which had been classified as Official Only. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I show you a document which has already been marked -as Commission Exhibit No. 969, and ask you whether these were the -instructions that were attached to S-1. - -Mr. SEELEY. So far as I am able to determine, I don't have an -independent recollection, but looking at the formation of the file and -the fact that this was not sent, and I know that there was another one -that was sent, I believe it is the same document. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And you were asked as to whether it should be classified -as confidential? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What, if anything, did you do? - -Mr. SEELEY. I don't know. I have no recollection of what action I took -on that particular aspect of it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You don't recall ever talking to Miss Waterman or anyone -else in the Department as to what form the proposed instruction should -take? - -Mr. SEELEY. No. I don't know whether I even know Miss Waterman. I -know Mr. Kupiec, and I probably know Miss Waterman, but I don't have -recollection of what she looks like. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Kupiec as to what form the -instruction should take? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. This instruction was drafted by Miss Waterman, -and it was sent up for clearance to PTL, Mr. Johnson. I presume that -when it went to either Mr. Cacciatore or Mr. Kupiec, I put my name on -for the clearance procedure, in particular with regard to whether the -thing should have been classified, have a higher classification than it -did. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You don't have any independent recollection of discussing -Oswald? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Or whether the instruction should have been in a different -form? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell me the next occasion where you had anything -to do with Oswald, or the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. The next occasion, I think, relates to document X-43. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I would like to mark as S-2 a memorandum from Robert D. -Johnson to Mr. John T. White, under date of March 31, 1961, which in -the State Department files has been marked as X-43. - -(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 2 for -identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. Is that the document referred to? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, sir, did you draft S-2? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Can you tell me the circumstances surrounding your -drafting S-2? - -Mr. SEELEY. This particular item I do have a recollection of because -there was a discussion between Mr. Johnson and myself concerning the -propriety of sending the passport through the mail as had been proposed. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What was that discussion? - -Mr. SEELEY. We were opposed to this action on several grounds. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What were they? - -Mr. SEELEY. One was the fact that I think we already had information -that Mrs. Oswald, the mother, had not been able to get in touch with -her son. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You are talking about Oswald's mother? - -Mr. SEELEY. The mother; yes. And we felt that the mails shouldn't be -trusted for a U.S. passport which we know has a value outside the -United States. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, you also indicated in the memorandum that, "We should -not be bound by the opinion he expressed in paragraph 2 of his letter -set out in Moscow Despatch No. 985 of February 28, 1961." - -Mr. SEELEY. May I get that? It is No. 585. The paragraph that we are -referring to reads: "I desire to return to the United States, that is -if we could come to some agreement concerning the dropping of any legal -proceedings against me. If so, then I would be free to ask the Russian -authorities to allow me to leave. If I could show them my American -passport, I am of the opinion they would give me an exit visa." - -The item in the memorandum concerns itself mainly with his request for -agreement concerning the dropping of any legal proceedings against him. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You indicated that the Department ought not to give such -agreement. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Johnson with respect -to this March 31, 1961, memorandum? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. I don't have a complete recollection of it, but -I do know that I did discuss this particular item, particularly the -mailing of the passport, with Mr. Johnson. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And do you recall what Mr. Johnson said? - -Mr. SEELEY. I think Mr. Johnson was the one that instructed me to draft -this so that we would not send this through the mail, so that the -passport would not be sent through the mail. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After the memorandum of March 31, 1961, and this -discussion you had with Mr. Johnson, what did you do? - -Mr. SEELEY. I am sorry? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you draft the instructions in the form that they -actually went forward? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with that? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; except I think there is a clearance, but I am not -sure about that. I think we cleared it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And the instructions that actually went forward did -indicate that they ought not to return the passport by mail? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What was the date of that instruction? - -Mr. SEELEY. The instruction that went forward? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. - -Mr. SEELEY. That was AE-173, of April 13, 1961. It is Department X-38. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Will the record show that that document has already been -marked as Commission Exhibit No. 971 before the Commission. You say -that you read Commission Exhibit No. 971 and cleared it before it went -forward? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Exhibit No. 971 which you referred to as X-38 shows on the -left-hand side that there is a notation that a copy of the instructions -was sent to the CIA. - -Mr. SEELEY. Was furnished to the CIA. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Was that done at the same time the instructions went -forward? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with sending it to the CIA? - -Mr. SEELEY. I don't have a recollection on this. I would imagine what -happened is that there was a request by the CIA for a copy of this, and -that I authorized them to be furnished a copy on October 5, 1961. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I take it you actually read the instructions which went -forward on April 13, 1961. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. My initials are at the bottom. - -Mr. COLEMAN. The fact that your initials are at the bottom indicates -that you approved them? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What was the next occasion on which you had anything to do -with the Oswald file or heard the name Oswald? - -Mr. SEELEY. I will have to check the file. The next occasion where the -record shows that I had something to do with the Oswald file concerns -Item X-31. It is a Department of State instruction, W-7, dated July -11, 1961, drafted by Mrs. Waterman, and I cleared this particular -instruction. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Can we note for the record that that instruction has -already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 975? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You cleared those instructions prior to the time you -received word from Mr. Snyder in the Embassy in Moscow that Oswald had -appeared at the Embassy on July 8, 10, or 11? - -Mr. SEELEY. Of 1961? - -Mr. COLEMAN. 1961. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; that is true. I wasn't sure of the time element -in there, but that is true. This went out the same day, apparently, -that the instruction was drafted and was sent in, or the despatch was -drafted and sent in. - -Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, you took that action or you approved that -action prior to the time that you knew that Oswald had appeared at the -Embassy in Moscow? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Is it a fair reading of the July 11, 1961, instructions -which you approved, that you indicated that Oswald could be given back -his passport? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I don't think so. I call your attention to -paragraph 5 of the despatch; "It is noted that the Embassy intends -to seek the Department's prior advice before granting Mr. Oswald -documentation as a United States citizen upon any application he may -submit." - -Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, as of this time it was still open as far as -the Department was concerned in Washington whether Oswald had renounced -his citizenship and was entitled to a passport? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. I don't think that the adjudicative proceeding -had been completed. - -Mr. COLEMAN. When was the adjudicative process completed so far as you -were concerned, that the Passport Office in Washington determined that -in its opinion, that Mr. Oswald was still a citizen? - -Mr. SEELEY. I would say that the operations memorandum of August 18, -1961, from the Department of State to the American Embassy in Moscow -which refers to the Embassy Despatch No. 29, the passport renewal -application and the questionnaire. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You would say that as of that date the Passport Office -determined that Oswald was still a citizen? - -Mr. SEELEY. I would say at that date that we concurred in the -conclusion of the Embassy that he had not expatriated--that we had no -information or evidence that he had expatriated himself. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with this decision? - -Mr. SEELEY. Not the citizenship decision; no, sir. I had nothing to do -with that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You weren't consulted prior to the time the decision was -made? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you approve the operations memorandum of August 18? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. 1961; before it was sent forward? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I did. My initials are at the bottom there. - -Mr. COLEMAN. If you had disapproved it, at least there would have been -further discussion? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; there would have been. - -Mr. COLEMAN. So, to that extent, you did have something to do with the -decision? - -Mr. SEELEY. Well, to that extent, there was no consultation. This -was sent up for clearance, and insofar as the citizenship angle was -concerned, I agreed with what they had done. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you call for and look at the file prior to the time -you initialed the operations memorandum of August 18, 1961? - -Mr. SEELEY. I would presume that I had the whole file. Mr. Ehrlich has -suggested that I mention that I was not in the citizenship area at the -time that I put my concurrence on this operations memorandum, and I was -looking at it only from the aspect of my own area. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What was your area? - -Mr. SEELEY. I was in the Security Branch. I was Chief of the Security -Branch of the Legal Division. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What did you have to do with the decision? - -Mr. SEELEY. In this particular case if you had objected, I am sure that -there would have been further discussion on this particular case. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Could we mark as Seeley Exhibit No. 3--instead of "S" -I think we had better call these Seeley exhibits, the operations -memorandum dated August 18, 1961, from the Department of State to the -American Embassy. - -Mr. SEELEY. Fine, sir. - -(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 3 for -identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. That is the document that you referred to as X-27, is that -correct? - -Mr. SEELEY. X-27, that is correct. - -Mr. COLEMAN. If you had felt that there was evidence in the file that -Oswald had renounced his citizenship, I take it you would not have -approved this memorandum, is that correct? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I would not have. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You would not have approved it? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I would not have approved it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. There would have been further discussions? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. So, therefore, as far as you were concerned in reviewing -the file and what you knew and looking over it, what Miss Waterman had -said and what Mr. Snyder had said, that your decision was that you saw -no reason why you would disagree with the decision? - -Mr. SEELEY. I was in complete agreement with the decision. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After you concurred in the operations memorandum of -August 18, 1961, what was the next occasion on which you had anything -to do with the Oswald file? - -Mr. SEELEY. So far as I can determine---- - -Mr. COLEMAN. The Commission Exhibit No. 979 is the same as I have -marked as Seeley Exhibit No. 3. - -Mr. SEELEY. So far as I can determine by examination of the file, the -next contact I had with the file concerns a slip that is part of State -X-19, consisting of a DS-10 reference slip dated 12-29-61. - -Mr. COLEMAN. That is attached to a letter from L. A. Mack, to the -Director of the Passport Office of the State Department, is that -correct? - -Mr. SEELEY. Mr. Coleman, on that particular item, I don't think that -that was what it was attached to. I think it was probably attached to -X-20. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What is that? - -Mr. SEELEY. That is a memorandum from Miss Knight to Mr. Boswell. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Will you read that memorandum into the record? It is short. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes; the subject is: "Lee Harvey Oswald." It is classified -"Confidential." - -It states: "We refer to the Office Memorandum of July 27, 1961, from -SY, which stated that 'renounced United States citizenship.' Mr. Oswald -attempted to renounce United States citizenship but did not in fact -renounce United States citizenship. Our determination on the basis of -the information and evidence presently of record is that Mr. Oswald did -not expatriate himself, and remains a citizen of the United States." - -Mr. COLEMAN. You say that your reference slip of 12-29-61 was attached -to that memorandum? - -Mr. SEELEY. I would presume it was. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Would you look at the letter, the Mack letter from the -Immigration and Naturalization Service to the Director of Passports? - -Mr. SEELEY. I am looking at it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you see that letter or did you have anything to do -with that letter? - -Mr. SEELEY. So far as I know, I had nothing to do with that letter. I -have seen the letter. - -Mr. COLEMAN. By the time you did, the reference slip of 12-29-61--which -I would like the reporter to indicate was marked Seeley Exhibit No. -4--what was your job in the State Department? - -(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 4 for -identification.) - -Mr. SEELEY. At the time that I--I was still Chief of the Security -Branch of the Legal Division. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What does PT-L mean? - -Mr. SEELEY. PT-L, Passport-Legal, PT-LS, Passport-Legal Security. - -To give you an idea about it, the Legal Division is divided into two -branches, and we have a short designation for it, PT-LS and PT-LAD. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I see. - -Mr. SEELEY. I will tell you further if you wish, about this particular -item. This was---- - -Mr. COLEMAN. What is this particular item? You are now talking about -the letter? - -Mr. SEELEY. The letter; yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. It is the Mack letter? - -Mr. SEELEY. State Department File X-19. It was addressed to our Liaison -Branch, and I see at the bottom it was reviewed by Mr. Reichman, of the -Immigration and Naturalization Service. And I would presume that I did -not, that this was not in the file at the time that this DS-10, that it -was probably in Liaison, and the file was called for. It was reviewed. -The file was then reviewed by Mr. Reichman who answered for his own -service. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, sir; what was the next occasion on which you had -anything to do with the Oswald file? - -Mr. SEELEY. The next occasion concerns Item X-11. - -Mr. COLEMAN. We have marked as Seeley Deposition Exhibit No. 5 a -memorandum from Robert Owen, to Michael Cieplinski, dated March 23, -1962. - -(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 5 for -identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. I ask you, sir; whether that is the document you refer to. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you draft Seeley Exhibit No. 5? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You reviewed it? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; on March 28, 1962. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything to do with Seeley Exhibit No. 5 -other than the fact that you just read it? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Why would you be reading it? - -Mr. SEELEY. The item was referred to, a copy of this item was referred -to Miss Knight. It was, in turn, referred to the Legal Division, and -then in turn referred to the Security Branch of the Legal Division. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you take any action with respect to it? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I did not, other than to note that I had read it -and initialed it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did the fact that he had originally stated that he had -information as a radar operator in the Marine Corps which he would make -available to the Soviet Union--did that in any way raise in your mind a -security problem? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I thought that this certainly raised a doubt. He -had originally, I think, way back had made some similar type statement. -Here he made the statement, "Oswald stated he had never in fact been -subjected to any questioning or briefing by the Soviet authorities -concerning his life or experiences prior to entering the Soviet Union, -and never provided such information to any Soviet organ." I thought -that certainly there were two statements by him. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I note on the copy you have there is a red check right -beside the line which I read. Did you place that red check on there? - -Mr. SEELEY. I don't think so, sir. It looks like--I think I had a -regular pencil, and I think I would have done it with a pencil. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Merely because a person who had attempted to defect now -says when he is trying to get back into the country, "I really didn't -tell the Soviets anything," that wouldn't completely satisfy you that -maybe he hadn't, would it? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; but I had no information that he had in fact done -so. He had just made a statement that he would. I think that was his -original statement. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you didn't do anything other than read Seeley Exhibit -No. 5? - -Mr. SEELEY. That is right, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. When was the next occasion you had anything to do with the -file? - -Mr. SEELEY. The next concerns Item X-7, which is a memorandum from -Robert D. Johnson to William O. Boswell, dated May 4, 1962. - -Mr. COLEMAN. We have marked that as Seeley Exhibit No. 6, and -identified as a memorandum from Robert D. Johnson to William O. -Boswell, dated May 4, 1962. - -(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 6 for -identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you draft this memorandum? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What did you have to do with it? You just read it? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I signed it in Mr. Johnson's stead, to send it on -its way to Mr. Boswell. - -Mr. COLEMAN. In effect, you said that based upon the evidence and -information of record, that Oswald had not expatriated himself under -the pertinent laws of the United States? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you review the file before you wrote that memorandum? - -Mr. SEELEY. I didn't write the memorandum. Before I signed it? - -Mr. COLEMAN. Yes. - -Mr. SEELEY. I don't have any recollection of it. I presume the file was -with the memorandum. That is in the normal course of business, that -would be the way it was handled. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you don't have any independent recollection of whether -you checked through the file to see whether---- - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Could you tell me who wrote the memorandum from looking at -the initials? - -Mr. SEELEY. I think it was a Mrs. Abboud. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you discuss it with her before? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I did not. This came from the citizenship area. -She is in the citizenship area. - -Mr. COLEMAN. If they prepare a memorandum for your signature, just -merely because somebody in the citizenship area drafts it doesn't mean -that you sign it, does it? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; it does not. I would imagine, although I don't -have any recollection, that I did look into the file. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Is it fair to say that you would not just initial it -merely because somebody else had drafted it? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And normally you would look through the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; in the normal course of business I would look at -the file--see what my own conclusion was. - -Mr. COLEMAN. After you drafted or after you initialed the memorandum -which has been marked as Seeley Exhibit No. 6, what was the next -occasion you had to look at the Oswald file? - -Mr. SEELEY. The next occasion concerned the two items that are -identified as X-5. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Could we mark as Seeley Exhibit No. 7 a photostatic copy -of an article which appeared in the Washington Post on Saturday, June -9, 1962, and also attached is a reference slip. - -(The document referred to was marked Seeley Exhibit No. 7 for -identification.) - -Mr. COLEMAN. Are they the two items that you refer to? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; they are. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, I take it you just read this and put it in the file. - -Mr. SEELEY. I would presume that I cut this article out. I see that it -is my printing on the side there where it says "Oswald, Lee Harvey" on -the right-hand side. - -Mr. COLEMAN. That is your printing? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; and I would presume that I saw the article in the -newspaper, cut it out and brought it to be filed with this case. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, I show you a sheet which has the word "Refusal" -Commission Exhibit No. 962, and ask you whether that hand printing that -appears there is your printing, too? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; that is not. I have looked at that. It doesn't -look like mine. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, after you put this newspaper article in the file, did -you have anything else to do with the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes; I sent this item, this is CS, these items to our -Special Services, Miss Waters. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Do you know what she did? - -Mr. SEELEY. No; I don't. I have no recollection. I see that it was as -requested. It may have been a telephone request. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have anything else to do with the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What was that? - -Mr. SEELEY. That was on October 22, 1963. - -Mr. COLEMAN. What occasioned your looking at the file on October 22, -1963? - -Mr. SEELEY. I am looking right now at State Department Exhibit X-3. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And what occasioned your looking at the file on October -22, 1963? - -Mr. SEELEY. It was the transmittal from INR of the Department -transmitting a secret--well, I know what it is, a CIA document, -telegram, to the Passport Office. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Can you recall what the CIA telegram said? - -Mr. SEELEY. The telegram said in effect that Lee Oswald had appeared -or had contacted, I believe was the word, the Soviet Embassy in Mexico -City in October 1963. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, did the telegram also indicate that Oswald was the -person who in 1959 had attempted to defect? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Now, when you got the telegram on your desk, did you also -get the file with it? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; the passport file. - -Mr. COLEMAN. That came to you at the same time, or did you get the -telegram and then send for the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. I had the whole thing. I am morally certain on this, that -I had the whole file. I can tell by the reconstruction on this. Mr. -Ritchie and myself have discussed this. We are both sure how this went -about. - -Do you want me to give this reconstruction? - -Mr. COLEMAN. You can, if you wish to; yes. - -Mr. SEELEY. I notice that there was a little note. "Mr. Anderson pull -previous." "Previous" means to pull the file, whatever file there is. -This was on October 17. The file was pulled according to our records in -our office on October 17 or 18, I forget the exact date. It was within -a day or so thereafter this. And I presume that this was first reviewed -by Mr. Ritchie and then reviewed by myself. - -Mr. COLEMAN. When you pulled the file which is the State Department -file X---- - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you send for the security file? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Why wouldn't you send for the security file if you get -a telegram from a security agency saying that the gentleman who was -down at the Russian Embassy in Mexico City is the same guy who in 1959 -attempted to defect? - -Mr. SEELEY. I looked at this report strictly from a passport office -point of view. The significance which, of course, might have great -intelligence significance, had little or no significance insofar as any -action that we would take in the Passport Office is concerned. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Why would that be, sir? - -Mr. SEELEY. Well, we have to have some basis under our regulations to -take any action. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I mean why, if you get information which you can -immediately realize may have intelligence significance, why wouldn't -you look at it from a point of view of intelligence? - -Mr. SEELEY. Well, I am working for the Passport Office. Certainly, if -I saw something that I could do something about, I would take whatever -action I thought was necessary. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Why didn't you, for example, write a letter to the FBI -saying that this fellow is down in Mexico City, are you interested, or -do you want to see the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. Well, I would say the probability is that a copy of this -was apparently furnished to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And you noted that, I take it, at the time of reviewing -the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. I have no independent recollection that I did. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But the fair assumption is that you did? - -Mr. SEELEY. I would assume that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I take it that is also the reason why you didn't notify -the CIA, because the telegram had come from the CIA? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes; from the CIA. - -Mr. COLEMAN. When you looked at the file, did you know or were you -aware after looking at the file that Oswald in June 1963 had been -issued a passport? - -Mr. SEELEY. I presume I was. The passport is the next item there, and I -am sure that I looked at it and saw that he did have a passport. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you after you looked at it say to yourself "can we -revoke this passport?" - -Mr. SEELEY. I am sure that is why I looked at it. I am sure of that, -Mr. Coleman, that I looked at it with that view in mind, if there was -any action to be taken of that sort. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you know that he had defected or attempted to defect -in 1959? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you know that when he attempted to defect that he -had indicated that he was going to pass some radar information to the -Russians if they gave him citizenship? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you know that the Soviet desk had indicated in 1961 or -1962 that it would be to the interests of the United States to get him -out of Russia and back to the United States? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you note in his passport application for his 1963 -passport that he indicated that one of the countries that he intended -to travel to was Russia? - -Mr. SEELEY. I don't have an independent recollection of that. I presume -I did note that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And you are saying with all that information that you -would look at that file, I take it you did it on October 22? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Read it and just put it back and did nothing about it? - -Mr. SEELEY. I did nothing about it other than to note the fact that I -had read the telegram. - -Mr. COLEMAN. All I am saying, just asking for your best recollection---- - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I realize you did nothing, but wouldn't that cause you -to at least do something, to talk to somebody and say, "Can we do -something about this?" - -Mr. SEELEY. Mr. Ritchie and I undoubtedly talked about this, or at -least we both saw it. I was well aware of the file. But there was -no particular passport significance to the fact that a man shows up -down at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. He was married to a Soviet -citizen. I think there is an indication somewhere she was supposed to -report or something. I don't know what the score was on that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But the problem is, sir, that---- - -Mr. SEELEY. But even if she was to report, I don't get the significance -of an individual appearing at a Soviet Embassy, either here or anywhere -else in the world, by itself meaning anything insofar as passports is -concerned. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Sir, the problem is, if there is a problem, that on -June 24, 1963, when Mr. Oswald applied for his passport, the State -Department issued it routinely because under the lookout system there -was nothing on Oswald, so, therefore, it went out the next day. - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And we think, from what we know, that as of June 24 or 25 -no one looked at the file, so, therefore, there is no reason why the -passport wouldn't go out. - -Mr. SEELEY. I would presume from looking at this file, that that is -absolutely correct. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But our problem is that if on June 24 or June 25 someone -had looked at the file, would you have issued the passport based upon -what was in the file as of June 24 or 25, or would you have at least -talked to people to see whether some action should be taken? - -Mr. SEELEY. If I had seen this application on June 24 or 25, before it -had been issued, I think I probably would have discussed it. But that -would have been the end of it. We have no basis upon which to deny him -or hold up his passport. There would have been a discussion. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Are you saying, then, it is your opinion that after -reviewing the file that if the request for a passport had come in and -you had looked at the file before the passport was issued, there was no -regulation or legal basis on which you could refuse him a passport? - -Mr. SEELEY. That is correct. That is absolutely correct. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And, therefore, I take it then, that the only additional -information you got in the October CIA telegram was that he was in -Mexico City, and he had visited the Russian Embassy in Mexico City. - -Mr. SEELEY. That is correct. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And it is your position that he had the right to go back -to Russia if he wanted to go anyway; is that correct? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And so, therefore, there is nothing that you could have -done about it? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Did you make any memorandum or any memoranda when you -looked at the file in October 1963? - -Mr. SEELEY. Aside from this notation which is in my handwriting, which -says "Noted CHS 10-22-63" that is the extent of the documentation that -I gave to them. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But you do say you had some discussions with the other -gentlemen that looked at the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. I don't have a recollection. I don't know whether Mr. -Ritchie does. I don't believe he does either, but the fact that we both -had it, he may have passed it to me. You have to get this in context. -We have hundreds of these cases. This is one case out of hundreds. - -I am surprised that I have got any recollection, but I do have some, -as I mentioned before in my testimony here, that I did have some -recollection of it. - -Mr. COLEMAN. No one called you and said, "Well, look, let him have the -passport, don't do anything about it," I take it? - -Mr. SEELEY. Oh, no, sir. At the time the passport was issued, it was -issued. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But I mean when you got the telegram, nobody called you -and said, "Look, just skip it. Let him have the passport." - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. "Don't do anything about it"? - -Mr. SEELEY. No, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. All the action you took, you took independently? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; as my own independent action. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I take it if faced with the situation again, knowing only -what you knew on October 22, 1963, you would take the same action today? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; that is correct. There is one additional item, -and that is under our new regulations we do put a card in on a defector -or a person--I think I can give you the definition here. - -"Defectors, expatriates and repatriates whose activities or background -demand further inquiry prior to issuance of passport facilities." - -I presume that under this criteria, in fact I know under this criteria -that Oswald would have a card placed against him today. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Is it your opinion as assistant legal counsel to the -Passport Office that you still in the final analysis couldn't deny him -the passport? - -Mr. SEELEY. That is definite. - -Mr. COLEMAN. And you would have to give it to him? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Has there been any other case of a defector where you have -actually issued him another passport? - -Mr. SEELEY. We have issued passports to defectors, at least one that I -know of, and I think we have furnished a report on that. - -Mr. COLEMAN. You say there is a case of another defector? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; in connection with the answer to this question, -we did a research job on a list of defectors which had been furnished -to the Department of State by the Department of Defense, and our search -disclosed that only one of these individuals, a Paul David Wilson, had -applied for passport facilities since his return to the United States, -and he was issued a passport. - -Mr. COLEMAN. To go where, sir? - -Mr. SEELEY. To visit Mexico, Colombia, South America, and was uncertain -of others. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Was that done routinely or was that done after looking at -his file? - -Mr. SEELEY. My recollection of this, that this was a routine issuance -of a passport to a person on whom we had no information. - -Mr. COLEMAN. In other words, this was another case where because you -didn't have a lookout card---- - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Nobody ever looked at the file? - -Mr. SEELEY. Yes, sir; well, there was no file. We have no file on this -man other than his name. The Passport Office has no file on this man, -Paul David Wilson. - -Mr. COLEMAN. But there has been no case where you had a file, you knew -he had defected, and then applied for another passport and before you -issued the second passport you had to make a decision as to whether you -could refuse to issue him a passport? - -Mr. SEELEY. None to my knowledge. - -Mr. COLEMAN. I have no further questions, unless you have something -else you would want to say. - -Mr. SEELEY. I have nothing further, Mr. Coleman. I will be glad to help -all I can. That is all I can say. - -Mr. COLEMAN. Thank you for coming over. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF LOUIS FELDSOTT - -The following affidavit was executed by Louis Feldsott on July 23, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NEW YORK, - _County of Rockland, ss_: - -I, Louis Feldsott, being duly sworn say: - -1. I am the President of Crescent Firearms, Inc., 2 West 37th Street, -New York 18, New York. - -2. On November 22, 1963, the F.B.I. contacted me and asked if Crescent -Firearms, Inc., had any records concerning the sale of an Italian made -6.5 m/m rifle with the serial number C 2766. - -3. I was able to find a record of the sale of this rifle which -indicated that the weapon had been sold to Kleins' Sporting Goods, -Inc., Chicago, Illinois on June 18, 1962. I conveyed this information -to the F.B.I. during the evening of November 22, 1963. - -4. Further records involving the purchase, sale, and transportation of -the weapon have been turned over to the F.B.I. - -Signed the 23d day of July 1964. - - (S) Louis Feldsott, - LOUIS FELDSOTT. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF J. PHILIP LUX - -The following affidavit was executed by J. Philip Lux on July 22, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, J. Philip Lux, being duly sworn say: - -1. I am now Store Manager at the H. L. Green Company, 1623 Main Street, -Dallas, Texas. I was not employed by the H. L. Green Company in 1963. - -2. H. L. Green Company records show that in 1963, the Company had in -stock and sold Italian 6.5 mm rifles that were surpluses from World War -II. - -3. The records also reflect the fact that the H. L. Green Company -received its supply of Italian 6.5 mm rifles from the Crescent Firearms -Company, New York City. - -4. A review of the records has failed to reflect any record of a 6.5 mm -rifle with Serial No. C2766. - -5. As far as I know, the H. L. Green Company is the only company in -Dallas handling any quantity of these Italian 6.5 mm rifles. - -Signed the 22d day of July 1964. - - (S) J. Philip Lux, - J. PHILIP LUX. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN - -The following affidavit was executed by Howard Leslie Brennan on May 7, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Howard Leslie Brennan, being first duly sworn, do upon oath depose -and state: - -On or about March 24, 1964, I testified in Washington, D.C., before -the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. -In that connection I testified as to the reasons why I declined on -November 22, 1963, to give positive identification of Lee Harvey Oswald -as the man I saw firing a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth -floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. - -Included in these reasons at pages 3629 and 3630 of Volume 28 of the -transcript of the Commission proceedings are the following reasons: - -"And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, -might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that -he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country -immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret -Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch -with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man -didn't get loose." - -"... "Because I had already more or less give a detailed description of -the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, -and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and -all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eye witness, that -anything could happen to me or my family." - -I have also been advised that on page 3595 of Volume 28 of the -transcript of the Commission proceedings, the following appears: - -"Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family, and -yourself? - -"Mr. BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a -Communist activity, and I felt like there had been more than one eye -witness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eye witness, -my family or I, either one, might not be safe." - -I hereby state that this is a court reporter's error and that in truth -and in fact my answer to the question was: - -"Mr. BRENNAN: I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a -Communist activity, and I felt like there _hadn't_ been more than -one eye witness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eye -witness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe." - -Signed the 7th day of May 1964. - - (S) Howard Leslie Brennan. - HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ALBERT C. YEARGAN, JR. - -The following affidavit was executed by Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., on July -21, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., 1922 Mayflower Drive, Dallas, Texas, being -duly sworn say: - -1. I was the Sporting Goods Department Manager at the H. L. Green -Company, 1623 Main Street, Dallas, Texas, from the Summer of 1963 until -March 13, 1964. I am now employed by Smitty's Sporting Goods, 111 West -Jefferson Avenue, Dallas, Texas. - -2. When I worked for the H. L. Green Company, it had in stock and was -offering for sale a large number of Italian 6.5 mm rifles that were -surpluses from World War II. - -3. On November 22, 1963, FBI Agents, Secret Service Agents, and I -examined all sales records and receipt records concerning Italian 6.5 -mm rifles. - -4. The records showed that the H. L. Green Company obtained its supply -of these Italian 6.5 mm rifles from the Crescent Firearms Company in -New York City. - -5. A review of all of the records failed to reflect any record of sale -of a 6.5 mm rifle with the Serial Number C2766. - -6. As far as I know, the H. L. Green Company was at that time the only -Company in Dallas that handled any quantity of these Italian 6.5 mm -rifles. - -Signed the 21st day of July 1964. - - (S) Albert C. Yeargan, Jr., - ALBERT C. YEARGAN, Jr. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF LOUIS WEINSTOCK - -The following affidavit was executed by Louis Weinstock on May 20, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NEW YORK, - _County of New York, ss_: - -Louis Weinstock, being duly sworn, says: - -1. On or about December 19, 1962, I was General Manager of "The -Worker," the address of which is 23 West 26 Street. New York 11, New -York. On or about December 19, 1962, I wrote the attached letter on the -letterhead of "The Worker" addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, Post Office -Box 2915, Dallas, Texas, and sent or caused such letter to be sent to -Mr. Oswald. I have initialed that letter immediately below the initials -"WJL" appearing thereon for the purpose of identifying it as Weinstock -Exhibit No. 1. - -2. The letter refers to certain "blow ups" which were apparently sent -to "The Worker" by Mr. Oswald. I described those "blow ups" in my -letter as "poster like blow ups" and indicated that they would be "most -useful at newsstands and other public places to call the attention of -newspaper readers that 'The Worker' is available." - -3. While my recollection is not entirely clear concerning the nature -of the "blow ups" which Oswald had apparently sent to "The Worker," it -appears from the description of such "blow ups" in my letter that they -must have consisted of the item which has been marked as Exhibit 5A in -the deposition of Mr. Arnold S. Johnson, which Exhibit, as indicated in -Mr. Johnson's testimony, was obtained from the files of "The Worker" -and turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Mr. Johnson's -counsel. - -4. Aside from the attached letter of December 19, 1962. I know of no -other correspondence which I may have written to Lee Harvey Oswald and -I do not recall receiving anything from him other than the material -described in this affidavit. - -Signed the 20th day of May 1964. - - (S) Louis Weinstock, - LOUIS WEINSTOCK. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF VINCENT T. LEE - -The following affidavit was executed by Vincent T. Lee on May 20, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NEW YORK, - _County of New York, ss_: - -Vincent T. Lee, being duly sworn says: - -1. My name is Vincent T. Lee. I reside at 37-1/2 St. Mark's Place, New -York, New York. I was formerly the National Director for the Fair Play -for Cuba Committee. I make this affidavit to supplement the testimony -which I gave to the above Commission on April 17, 1964. - -2. I have examined the attached membership card of the Fair Play for -Cuba Committee and state that it is an authentic membership card of -that organization and that it bears my signature.[B] - -3. I sent that card or caused it to be sent to Lee Harvey Oswald on or -about May 29, 1963. - -4. I have initialed the attached card under the initials WJL which -appear on the card for the purposes of identification of that card in -the record of the proceedings of the above Commission. - -Signed the 20th day of May 1964. - - (S) Vincent T. Lee, - VINCENT T. LEE. - - [B] The FPCC membership card referred to in the above affidavit - is Commission Exhibit No. 828. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF FARRELL DOBBS - -The following affidavit was executed by Farrell Dobbs on June 4, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NEW YORK, - _County of New York, ss_: - -I, Farrell Dobbs, being duly sworn, depose and say: - -1. I have read the twenty-six page transcript of the examination of me -in a proceeding of the Commission to Report upon the Assassination of -President John F. Kennedy, held at New York, N.Y., on April 17, 1964, -and find it accurate with the exception of the corrections noted and -initialled by me on pages 1, 6, & 7. - -2. I have read the original of a letter dated November 5, 1962, to Mr. -Lee H. Oswald from Farrell Dobbs, and have initialled it so that it may -be substituted as R. Watts Exhibit 11 for the typewritten copy shown me -on April 17, 1964.[C] I have no doubt that it is a letter I wrote, and -the signature is mine. - -3. I have initialled the original of a letter dated December 9, -1962, to Mr. Lee H. Oswald, signed "Bob Chester," so that it may be -substituted as R. Watts Exhibit 12 for the typewritten copy shown me on -April 17, 1964. - -4. As requested on pages 19-20, I have made a further search of our -files for the letter and reproductions from Lee H. Oswald referred to -in the Bob Chester letter but have found no record of them. Further, -I have discussed this matter with Mr. Chester and he advises me -that he has had a vague recollection that the reproductions were of -headlines from the _Militant_ but has no further recollection of any -correspondence with Lee H. Oswald. - -5. As requested on page 21, I have made a further search for a copy of -R. Watts Exhibit 13 and for the letter and clipping referred to in it -as from Lee H. Oswald but have been unable to find any such material in -our files. - -6. As requested in J. Lee Rankin's letter to Mr. Rowland Watts dated -May 20, 1964, I have made inquiry of the Young Socialist Alliance -and am advised that its files have been searched and that its -representatives have found no record that Lee H. Oswald's name was ever -referred to it, nor does it have any record of ever having had anything -in its files from, to, or concerning Lee H. Oswald. - -7. In pursuance of the information supplied in Mr. Rankin's letter to -Mr. Watts dated May 20, 1964, I have made inquiry of _The Militant_ -and have had its files further searched. There is no photograph of Lee -Harvey Oswald, with or without a rifle, in its files (other than a -clipping from the daily press after he was taken into custody). I am -confident no photograph of him was ever received prior to President -Kennedy's assassination. - -8. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I have submitted to you -all of the material in the files of the Socialist Workers Party, _The -Militant_, and Pioneer Publishers, concerning Lee Harvey Oswald, and I -have no further material or information concerning him. - -Signed the 4th day of June 1964. - - (S) Farrell Dobbs, - FARRELL DOBBS. - - [C] Since all of the Rowland Watts Exhibits have been - redesignated as Farrell Dobbs Exhibits, R. Watts Exhibits - Nos. 11, 12, and 13 referred to in the above affidavit have - been marked Farrell Dobbs Exhibits Nos. 11, 12, and 13, - respectively. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF VIRGINIA GRAY - -The following affidavit was executed by Virginia Gray on May 28, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, - _County of Durham, ss_: - -Virginia Gray, being duly sworn says: - -1. My name is Virginia Gray. I am the Assistant Curator of Manuscripts -of the Duke University Library, Durham, North Carolina, (the Library) -and the person most familiar with the records of the Socialist Party of -America which are now in the possession of the Library. - -2. The records of the Library reflect that it purchased the original -official records of the Socialist Party of America covering the period -from 1900 to 1938 from Leon Kramer, a New York dealer in Leftist -literature. Since the time of that original purchase the Library has -become the unofficial repository for files of the Socialist Party -of America and periodically acquires the inactive records of that -organization. - -3. On or about January 2, 1959 the Library acquired certain records -of the Socialist Party of America from Mr. Stephen Siteman, Executive -Secretary of that Party, 112 East 19th Street, New York, New York. - -4. A letter dated October 3, 1956 addressed "Dear Sirs" from Lee Oswald -and an advertisement coupon of "The Socialist Call", photostatic copies -of which are attached to this affidavit, were found in those materials -while they were being processed by the Library.[D] - -5. The Library has received additional materials from the Socialist -Party of America and is presently processing such materials. As of -the date of this affidavit, however, the only materials relating to -Lee Harvey Oswald which have been found amongst the records of the -Socialist Party of America presently in the possession of the Library -are those of which photostatic copies are attached. - -Signed the 28th day of May 1964. - - (S) Virginia Gray, - (Mrs.) VIRGINIA GRAY. - - [D] The photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit - have been marked Gray Exhibit No. 1. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF DR. ALBERT F. STAPLES - -The following affidavit was executed by Dr. Albert F. Staples on May -26, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -Dr. Albert F. Staples, being duly sworn says: - -1. My name is Albert F. Staples. I reside at 6056 Ellsworth Street, -Dallas, Texas. I am a dentist at the Baylor University College of -Dentistry and am familiar with the records in possession of the College -relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -2. I have caused a search of the files of the Baylor University College -of Dentistry which reveals a file on Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. The -foregoing file is now in the possession of the deponent. To the best of -my knowledge this file contains the only papers relating to Mrs. Lee -Harvey Oswald in the possession or control of the Baylor University -College of Dentistry. Accordingly under my supervision photostatic -copies[E] have been made of this entire file, such copies being -attached to this affidavit. - -3. On information and belief the attached photostatic copies are of the -entire file and comprise all the papers relating to Mrs. Lee Harvey -Oswald in the possession and control of the Baylor University Dental -Clinic. - -Signed the 26th day of May 1964. - - (S) Dr. Albert F. Staples, - Dr. ALBERT F. STAPLES. - - [E] The photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit - have been marked Staples Exhibit No. 1. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF KATHERINE MALLORY - -The following affidavit was executed by Katherine Mallory on July 20, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NEW YORK, - _County of Broome, ss_: - -I, Katherine Mallory, 412 East Main Street, Endicott, New York, being -duly sworn say: - -1. In 1961 I was a sophomore at the University of Michigan. In March of -1961, I was a member of the University of Michigan band which toured -Russia and the Near East. - -2. We arrived in Minsk, U.S.S.R. from Moscow on March 10, 1961. -While in Minsk, the band gave some concerts at the Minsk Polytechnic -Institute. We stayed in a hotel in Minsk. We left Minsk on March 14 and -proceeded to Kiev, U.S.S.R. - -3. There was an evening in Minsk when members of the band were divided -into small groups, each of which was assigned a Russian interpreter, -for the purpose of going on a tour of the facilities of the Minsk -Polytechnic Institute. - -4. Near the conclusion of this tour, at about 10:00 p.m., when the band -members were boarding a bus, I became surrounded by Russian students -who were asking me questions. Although one student was interpreting I -was having difficulty communicating with them. - -5. At this point, an American approached and offered to act as an -interpreter. I accepted the offer. While I never really had a chance -to talk with him, he mentioned that he was an ex-Marine from Texas. -Sometimes he spoke with a Texas accent and at other times he spoke with -an English accent. Somehow I got the impression that he was working in -Russia and that he never intended to return to the United States. - -6. This American appeared well dressed. I think he wore a camel hair -coat and possibly a tie. He did not indicate if he had been at the -concert. - -7. After just a few minutes of further questions from the Russian -students, with the American interpreting, I boarded the bus. I never -again saw nor heard from this individual. I noted in my diary something -about the incident, and I wrote that this American seemed to be a -crackpot. I did not meet any other Americans in Minsk. - -8. I have seen pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspaper, and the -individual I saw in Minsk very much resembles Oswald as pictured. I -recall that the person I saw seemed to have more hair and was heavier -than Lee Harvey Oswald as pictured in the newspapers. - -9. Except possibly for this one occasion in Minsk, I never saw nor -communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Signed the 20th day of July 1964. - - (S) Katherine Mallory, - KATHERINE MALLORY. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF KATHERINE MALLORY - -The following affidavit was executed by Katherine Mallory on July 20, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NEW YORK, - _County of Broome, ss_: - -I, Katherine Mallory, 412 East Main Street, Endicott, New York, being -duly sworn say: - -Following my telephone interview on July 10, 1964 with Mr. Richard -Mosk, I rechecked my diary of the University of Michigan Symphony Band -Tour and letters which I sent to my parents. Therefore, I append the -following minor corrections of statements in the interest of being as -accurate as I can. - -Statements 3, 4, and 5. I made no mention of the tour of the Institute -and therefore cannot verify the details of the arrangement, i.e., small -groups. However, I recall that the tour preceded the talent show. The -following is a statement from my diary; "Tonight the students at the -Bilo (sic) Russian (White Russian) Polytechnic Institute put on a -talent show for us ... (description of performance).... Afterward Jerry -Anderson and I missed getting out with our crowd and we were mobbed -by the students. I met a boy from Texas (now a Russian citizen) who -translated questions and answers for me." In a letter to my parents -dated March 17, 1961, "The first night we were there, the students of -the Polytechnic Institute gave us a reception and put on a very nice -talent show. Afterwards, we all were mobbed by the students. I met a -young man probably about 26 who is from Texas but after the war he -became a citizen of Minsk. It was rather weird meeting an ex-American -but he did come in handy as an interpreter for me and the other -students I was talking to." - -Statement 7. While I am sure that in conversations about this incident -I applied term "crackpot" I did not note it in my diary. - -All other statements prepared on the basis of the telephone interview -are true. - -Signed the 20th day of July 1964. - - (S) Katherine Mallory, - KATHERINE MALLORY. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. MONICA KRAMER - -The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. Monica Kramer on July 17, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF CALIFORNIA, - _County of Santa Barbara, ss_: - -I, Mrs. Monica Kramer, Janin Way, Sunny Acres, Solvang, California, -being duly sworn say: - -1. In 1961, Miss Rita Naman and I took a trip to Europe which included -a visit to the Soviet Union. Miss. Naman had purchased a Singer -automobile in Great Britain and we drove through Europe and the Soviet -Union. - -2. When we were in Moscow staying at the National Hotel, we met Mrs. -Marie Hyde, who, to the best of my knowledge, presently resides in -Port Angeles, Washington. Mrs. Hyde was desirous of driving with us to -Warsaw. Such an arrangement was made. - -3. My travel notes indicate that we arrived in Minsk, U.S.S.R., on -August 10. After arriving at our hotel, we were asked to take a guided -tour of Minsk. We subsequently found out that after we left the hotel, -our bags had been searched. Out Intourist Guide's name was Svetlana. - -4. We visited the Central Square where we stopped to take some -photographs. Kramer Exhibit 1, also labelled Commission No. 859d, -is a photograph taken by Miss Naman in Minsk on August 10, 1961. As -I recall, it was taken between 5:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. The building -in the background is the Palace of Culture, and the statue is one of -Joseph Stalin. The automobile in the center of the picture is the one -that was then owned by Miss Naman. The woman at the far left is the -Intourist Guide. She appears to be speaking with me, the woman standing -next to her. There are three men to the right of the automobile and a -small boy in front of it, all of whom I did not know. - -5. On every occasion that we stopped while on the trip through Russia, -people would gather around the automobile and look at it. As a result, -we became accustomed to this and therefore paid little or no attention -to these people. - -6. I cannot recall these three men. I never spoke with them. It now -appears to me that the man in the middle, wearing dark trousers and a -dark, short-sleeved plaid shirt, resembles Lee Harvey Oswald, whose -picture I have seen in the newspapers. - -7. I recall that Miss Naman spoke with somebody in Minsk who spoke -English. They talked about records. I do not recall if this person was -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -8. We left Minsk on August 11, 1961. - -9. Except for possibly on August 10, 1961, I never met nor communicated -with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Signed the 17th day of July 1964. - - (S) Mrs. Monica Kramer, - Mrs. MONICA KRAMER. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF RITA NAMAN - -The following affidavit was executed by Rita Naman on July 17, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF CALIFORNIA, - _County of Santa Barbara, ss_: - -I, Rita Naman, Janin Way, Sunny Acres, Solvang, California, being duly -sworn say: - -1. I am in the real estate business in Santa Ynez, California, and I -live with Mrs. Monica Kramer. - -2. In 1961, Mrs. Kramer and I took a trip to Europe. I purchased an -automobile in England, and we drove it through Europe and the Soviet -Union. - -3. While in Moscow we stayed at the National Hotel. There we met Mrs. -Marie Hyde, who, as far as I know, currently resides in Port Angeles, -Washington. We arranged to drive her to Warsaw, Poland. - -4. All three of us left Moscow and travelled to Minsk, U. S. S. R. -We arrived there on August 10, 1961. After going to our hotel, I was -called by the Intourist Office and asked to go there. The official at -the Intourist Office wanted to know why I was in Russia. He appeared -hostile. I suspect that they were interested in me because in Moscow, -I had given a person who claimed to be a student a Newsweek Magazine -along with my business card. The official then insisted that Mrs. -Kramer, Mrs. Hyde, and I go on a tour of Minsk. When we returned to our -room after the tour, we found that our luggage had been searched. - -5. Our Intourist guide's name was Svetlana. We visited the Central -Square where we stopped to take some photographs. Kramer Exhibit 1, -also labelled Commission No. 859 d, is a photograph taken by me at -this time. As I recall, it was taken about 8 or 8:30 p.m. The building -in the background is the Palace of Culture, and the statue is one of -Joseph Stalin. The automobile in the center of the picture was owned by -me. The woman at the far left is the Intourist Guide. She appears to be -speaking with a woman standing next to her, who is Mrs. Kramer. There -are three men to the right of the automobile and a small boy in front -of it, all of whom I did not know. - -6. Kramer Exhibit No. 2, also labelled Commission No. 859c, is a -photograph taken by me at the same place and at about the same time; -however, I took this photograph with Mrs. Hyde's camera. In this -photograph Mrs. Hyde is at the far left with the Intourist Guide and -Mrs. Kramer. Only two men are pictured to the right of the car. - -7. I do not remember speaking to any of the men pictured in Kramer -Exhibit 1 and in Kramer Exhibit 2. I was so disturbed by the earlier -interview with the Intourist Guide official, that I cannot remember -much of what happened thereafter. - -8. I do recall that after this photograph was taken, I went to a nearby -record store. When I left the store, a man spoke to me in an American -accent and asked me about my car. He asked how many miles to the gallon -it travelled. I do not recall if this man was the same one pictured in -Kramer Exhibit 1 and in Kramer Exhibit 2. - -9. The man appearing in these photographs, wearing dark trousers and a -dark, short-sleeved, check shirt, resembles Lee Harvey Oswald, whose -picture I have seen in the newspapers. - -10. Except for possibly on August 10, 1961, I never met nor -communicated with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -11. We left Minsk on August 11, 1961. - -Signed the 17th day of July 1964. - - (S) Rita Naman, - RITA NAMAN. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN BRYAN McFARLAND AND MERYL McFARLAND - -The following affidavit was executed by John Bryan McFarland and Meryl -McFarland on May 28, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND, - _County of Lancaster, City of Liverpool, - Consulate of the United States of America, ss_: - -Before me Wilfred V. Duke, Consul of the United States of America, duly -commissioned and qualified, personally came John Bryan McFarland and -Meryl McFarland, of 7a Riversdale Road, Liverpool, 19, England, who -being duly sworn, depose and say that: - -Q. When and where did you board the bus for Mexico City? - -A. We boarded the Continental Trailways bus at Jackson, Mississippi, -and traveled via connecting buses to Mexico City where we arrived -September 27, 1963. - -Q. When and where did you first see the man later identified as Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -A. We changed buses at Houston, Texas, at 2:00 a.m. September 26th and -it was probably about 6:00 a.m. after it became light that we first saw -him. - -Q. What reason did Oswald give for traveling to Mexico? - -A. He stated that he was en route to Cuba and that he could not travel -there from the United States as it was against the law. - -Q. Did you see Oswald speaking to any other persons? - -A. Yes. We observed him conversing occasionally with two young -Australian women who boarded the bus on the evening of September 26th -at Monterrey, Mexico. He also conversed occasionally with an elderly -man who sat in the seat next to him for a time. - -Q. When did it first occur to you that Lee Harvey Oswald was the man -you had met on the bus? - -A. When we saw his pictures in the newspapers. - -Q. How many suitcases was Oswald carrying when he boarded the bus at -Houston, Texas, or any other time? - -A. We did not see him carrying any suitcases at any time. - -Q. Did Oswald check any luggage with the bus company so it would have -been carried underneath the bus in the baggage compartment? - -A. We never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus -company, but in the bus station at Mexico City the last we saw of him -was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some -luggage. - -Q. What kind of luggage was he carrying? - -A. We did not notice but presume he must have been carrying some hand -luggage. - -Q. Did he check any suitcases or other packages at a place en route to -Mexico City or otherwise dispose of them? - -A. We never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus -company, but in the bus station at Mexico City the last we saw of him -was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some -luggage. - -Q. What kind of clothing was he wearing? - -A. As far as we recollect, ordinary slacks and, a more definite -recollection, a sort of zipper jerkin. - -Q. Did he mention any names or places either in the United States or -Mexico, in any connection whatever? - -A. Only New Orleans, whence he said he had come. In the course of -conversation, we worked out that he must have left New Orleans at about -the same time we had left Jackson, Mississippi, i.e. 2:00 p.m. on -Wednesday, September 25th, 1963. - -Q. Did he show you any documents, such as passport or Fair Play for -Cuba Committee Card, or letters, newspaper clippings or other similar -material? If so, describe them as fully as possible. - -A. We saw no document, but he said he was the secretary of the New -Orleans branch of the Fair Play for Cuba Organization, and that he was -on his way to Cuba to see Castro if he could. We saw him at the next -table to ourselves in the Customs Shed at Laredo, but did not notice -his passport or tourist card. - -Signed the 28th day of May 1964. - - (S) J. B. McFarland, - JOHN BRYAN McFARLAND. - (S) Meryl McFarland, - MERYL McFARLAND. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PAMELA MUMFORD - -The testimony of Pamela Mumford was taken at 12:30 p.m., on May 19, -1964, at 611 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. -Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Miss Mumford was -accompanied by her attorney, Mr. C. C. Dillavou. - - -Pamela Mumford, called as a witness herein, having been first duly -sworn, was examined and testified as follows: - -Mr. BALL. You received a letter, didn't you, from Mr. Rankin, as -counsel for the Commission, advising you that we would request you to -give your deposition? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; that's right. - -Mr. BALL. And you also received a copy of the joint resolution of -the Congress, didn't you, authorizing the Commission to proceed to -investigate the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you willingly give your deposition today, do you not? - -Miss MUMFORD. I do. - -Mr. BALL. To tell us all the facts that you might know to assist us in -this investigation? - -Miss MUMFORD. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Your name is Pamela Mumford? - -Miss MUMFORD. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Miss MUMFORD. 153 North New Hampshire Avenue, Los Angeles 4. - -Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? - -Miss MUMFORD. Secretary. - -Mr. BALL. A legal secretary? - -Miss MUMFORD. Legal secretary. - -Mr. BALL. And you work for the firm of Dillavou & Cox, do you? - -Miss MUMFORD. Right. - -Mr. BALL. That is in a building at 6th and Grand, Los Angeles, Calif.? - -Miss MUMFORD. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, because of the fact that you will not appear before the -Commission, and the members of the Commission will have to read this -deposition, they would like to know something about you: Where you were -born, your education. So, just go ahead and tell me all you can about -yourself. - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, I was born in the Fiji Islands in 1941, and my -father was transferred to Australia in 1951. I was brought up and went -to school in Australia until 1961. - -And then I traveled to England, where I worked for a period of a year. -I went to Europe and then I obtained a working visa to come to the -United States. - -I worked in New York for 8 months and then my friend and I traveled -through the United States and Mexico on our way to Los Angeles where we -intended to remain. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what was your friend's name? - -Miss MUMFORD. Patricia Winston. - -Mr. BALL. And she left Australia with you, did she? - -Miss MUMFORD. She left with me, yes. We had been traveling together for -2 years. And she also made the journey through the States and through -Mexico with me. That takes us up to Los Angeles. - -Mr. BALL. When did you arrive in Los Angeles? - -Miss MUMFORD. In the first week of November 1963. - -Mr. BALL. Is Patricia Winston a legal secretary also? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; Patricia is an occupational therapist, who was also -born in the Fiji Islands and raised in Australia. Our families were -friends. - -And she was unable to obtain work in California owing to certain -California laws. She had to sit for some exam to enable her to work -here. - -So, finally, she returned home to Australia in January, mid-January. -And she is there now. - -Mr. BALL. As of 1964? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How old is Patricia Winston? - -Miss MUMFORD. She is 23. - -Mr. BALL. You took a trip into Mexico last fall, didn't you? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you travel from New York to Mexico? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, we traveled by bus on a scheme which allowed us -to travel on Trailways buses for a period of 3 months for a certain -amount. We just got on and off at various places we wanted to see: For -instance, Washington, D.C.; Miami, where we stayed a week; then we went -across to New Orleans, down through Texas to Laredo, and from Laredo we -crossed the border also by bus and went to Monterrey. - -We spent one day in Monterrey and left by bus at 7:30 p.m. at -Monterrey, and it was on that bus that we met Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you buy your ticket to Mexico? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, the ticket we had on this deal enabled us only to -travel in the States, not in Mexico. - -So, we bought the ticket on the bus at Laredo and that enabled us to -stop off in Monterrey. But the ticket was from Laredo to Mexico City. - -Mr. BALL. And from what company did you buy the ticket? - -Miss MUMFORD. As far as I can remember, it was a bus company called -Transporter del Norte. - -Mr. BALL. And did you buy the bus ticket in Laredo at the Trailways bus -depot? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What date did you buy the bus ticket? - -Miss MUMFORD. It must have been September 25. - -Mr. BALL. And you left Laredo at what time? - -Miss MUMFORD. Early September the 26th. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't you leave the bus depot at Laredo on September 25th, -about 10 o'clock in the morning, or was it September 26? - -Miss MUMFORD. September 26. Now, hold on. We had one day in Monterrey -and one night in Monterrey. We left Monterrey, I know, on the night of -September 26 at 7:30 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. And you had come down to Monterrey from Laredo the day -before, hadn't you? - -Miss MUMFORD. The day before, yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on the way from Laredo to Monterrey you didn't see -Oswald? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You saw him on a bus that left Monterrey? - -Miss MUMFORD. That left Monterrey. But he had traveled from Laredo on -that same bus. - -Mr. BALL. How do you know that? - -Miss MUMFORD. He told us. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you got on the bus at Monterrey on the evening of -September 26 at 7:30 p.m., you just told me? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what was the company that operated that bus, do you know? - -Miss MUMFORD. That was also Transporter del Norte. - -Mr. BALL. And were there the same accommodations for all travelers? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; there were. There were four seats in the front that -were occupied by English-speaking people. But, having got on so late in -the journey, we were taken down to the back to sit with the Mexicans. -And we were the only English-speaking people at the back of the bus. - -Mr. BALL. All others were Mexican-speaking? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, who were the English-speaking people that you mentioned? -Will you describe them? - -Miss MUMFORD. There was a young English couple who were traveling down -to the Yucatan to study the Indians and their way of life. - -There was an elderly English gentleman in his mid- or late-sixties, I -should imagine. He told us during the journey that he had lived on and -off in Mexico for 25 years. - -Then there was the young Texan, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Patricia and -myself. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you first boarded the bus did you speak to the -English-speaking people? - -Miss MUMFORD. We got on and Oswald heard Patricia and I talking. And we -had two heavy overnight bags, and he told us later that he had turned -to his companion, who was the middle-aged English gentleman, and said, -"I wonder how you say 'How can I help you' in Spanish", which gave us -the opinion later that he couldn't speak the language: couldn't speak -Spanish. - -He took us for two Spanish girls, I guess, and was going to help us -with our luggage. - -Mr. BALL. Did he help you with your luggage? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You went on to the back of the bus? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't say anything to the four English-speaking people -when you first got on the bus? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. And they didn't speak to you? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. When did you first speak to any of these four? - -Miss MUMFORD. Oswald was the first one we spoke to. He left his seat -and came down to the back of the bus to speak to us. - -Mr. BALL. That was after the bus had left Monterrey? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And while it was en route? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say to you? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, he said that he had heard us speaking English and -wondered where we came from. - -He then told us the story of how he had thought we were Mexican and was -going to help us if he could speak the language. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? Can you tell me his language as close as you -can? - -Miss MUMFORD. No, I can't really put it into his words; not at that -stage. He then proceeded to tell us about himself. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say? - -Miss MUMFORD. I will have to refer to notes. Oh, yes; the first thing -he told us was that he was from Fort Worth, in Texas. And he wanted to -know where we had been, and we told him we were Australians. - -He wanted to know the places we had visited. We told him. - -And he mentioned that he had been in Japan while he was in the Marines, -and that was the closest he had got to Australia and that he would very -much like to go to Australia. - -He then told us that he had been to Russia and asked whether we had -ever been to Russia. We said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a -fellow Australian, who had been to Moscow, and her experiences there. - -And we asked him what he was doing in Russia and did he have trouble -getting in. He said that he was studying there. He had an apartment in -Moscow and was studying. We didn't ask him what he was studying. - -At this stage he showed us his passport that had a Russian stamp on it; -some sort of a Russian stamp. And he didn't mention his Russian wife at -all. But we noticed he had a gold wedding ring on his left hand. - -We made about three stops or four stops every 2 or 3 hours, and he -didn't speak to us during these stops. We got speaking to the other -British people. - -Mr. BALL. Did he speak to you again after that time that he first came -back? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; oh, about 2 hours before we arrived in Mexico City -he asked us whether we had accommodations arranged there. And we said -no, we had a vague idea from a book called "Mexico on Five Dollars a -Day" where we were going to stay. - -And he suggested that on previous trips to Mexico City he had stayed -at a place called the Hotel Cuba, and he recommended it for clean and -cheap living. - -And he then made a crack that he wasn't suggesting the Hotel Cuba -because he was going to be there; he just suggested it to help us. - -And we decided that we wouldn't take him up on his suggestion; that we -would go our own way. - -Then we arrived in the Mexico City bus station and he didn't speak to -us, attempt to speak to us at all. He was one of the first off the bus -and the last I remember seeing him he was standing across the end of -the room. - -Mr. BALL. At the bus station? - -Miss MUMFORD. At the bus station. And we left by taxi. - -Mr. BALL. Then you had two conversations with him? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Or more? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; two. During the trip I engaged the middle-aged -English gentleman in conversation, asking him about the weather, and -what it was like usually. And he said, "The young man traveling beside -me has traveled to Mexico also. Why don't you talk to him?" And that -was all. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to the English gentleman; the -elderly man? - -Miss MUMFORD. Just standing outside at one of the rest stops, standing -outside waiting to board the bus. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any one of these four people as the bus was -en route, except Oswald; the four English-speaking people? - -Miss MUMFORD. Not on the bus. We did speak to the young English couple -for a while, told them where we had lived in London, and they had told -us very vaguely, I remember, that they were also traveling through the -United States, but their main aim wasn't to go to the tourist resorts -in America but to go down to Mexico. - -Mr. BALL. Did you get their names? Did they tell you their names? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't ask them their name? - -Miss. MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. When did you talk to this elderly English gentleman who was -sitting beside Oswald when you first got on the bus? - -Miss MUMFORD. The only time we talked to him was at one of the rest -stops outside the bus. And I just happened to ask him about the -weather, and that was the only conversation. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else to you on the trip except that there -was a young man sitting next to him that had been in Mexico before? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. That's all he said? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. About how many people were on this bus? - -Miss MUMFORD. There must have been about 14 rows on both sides, with -two people on each. About 50, 55. It was crowded. - -Mr. BALL. I have a note here of a statement you made to an agent for -the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 18th of December in which it -was reported that you estimated about 39 passengers. - -Do you recall that? Did you ever say that? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, these were conflicting reports, naturally. The FBI -questioned Patricia at our apartment and he then questioned me here -and, naturally, two people get different ideas on a bus load. - -But, it was well crowded. There were a lot of children on the bus. I -should imagine there would be--they were long, great big, long, heavy -buses. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any vacant seats when you got on? - -Miss MUMFORD. Quite a few people boarded in Monterrey. And we were a -bit frightened that we wouldn't get a seat together. But I think we -were one of the few people who got on first. - -Mr. BALL. What part of the bus did you sit in? - -Miss MUMFORD. In the middle of the bus, more towards the back than the -front. - -Mr. BALL. Did the English man ever come back while you were being -seated and speak in Spanish to any of the Mexican people? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You don't recall that the English man ever came back and -asked the Mexican people to make room for you to sit down? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. At the bus stops, you say, you did not talk to Oswald? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. He was the first off the bus and the last back on. He -had a meal at every bus stop. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, he did? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. He ate at every bus stop? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. I never saw him ordering. I took it that he didn't -speak the language, but he always managed to order himself a large -meal, because he never seemed to get it over to them what he wanted. - -Mr. BALL. What gave you the impression that he did not speak the -language? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, simply that on arriving on the bus he told us--when -we had boarded the bus he had told us that he had turned to the English -gentleman and asked "I wonder how you say 'Can I help you' in Spanish." - -Mr. BALL. You told him when he came back to talk to you that you had -had a friend travel in Russia? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you say you had mentioned her experiences. What did you -tell him about that? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, we said that she had come back and told us that -Moscow was a beautiful city and she had gathered the impression that -they were being taken on a tour and shown only what they wanted to be -shown. - -She, being a school teacher, asked a lot of questions of their female -guide, and the questions just were evaded or not answered. - -And she said she got the impression that she was told to say certain -things and nothing else. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any remark to that? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; the only remark he made on his life in Moscow was -that he had had a lot of trouble getting out. That's all he said. - -Mr. BALL. Did he make any statement at all concerning his life in the -Soviet Union; whether he had enjoyed the stay there or not? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; he gave me the impression that he was the average, -normal American citizen who had gone over there and had wanted to get -out and couldn't get out for some red tape reasons. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything or make any mention of politics? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; never. - -Mr. BALL. Did he mention anything about communism, socialism, or -anything of that sort? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; he never said anything about his political views or -even mention politics at all. - -Mr. BALL. You did see his passport, though? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How did he happen to show you this passport? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, I think it was rather to prove that he had been in -Russia. I think he was trying to find places that we hadn't been that -he had, and he just--in fact, he left us at the seat to go up and take -his passport from his traveling bag and bring it down to show us. - -Mr. BALL. Had he told you his name before that? - -Miss MUMFORD. He never mentioned his name once. - -Mr. BALL. He never did? - -Miss MUMFORD. He never introduced himself; no. - -Mr. BALL. How did you know his name? - -Miss MUMFORD. We didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice the name on the passport? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, I didn't; no. Pat says it rang a bell when the rest -of the business came up, and we recognized him on television. And she -said, when the name came through on the television, it did ring a bell -with her, but she said even then she couldn't picture that name on the -passport. - -Mr. BALL. You did see the name on the passport, did you? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, yes, he must have shown it to us. I can't really -remember. - -Mr. BALL. But you didn't remember the name? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You made no note of it? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did the elderly Englishman ever make a statement to you as to -whether or not the young man sitting next to him on the bus, that is, -Oswald, had been to Mexico City before, or been to Mexico before? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; Oswald must have told him he had been there numerous -times, because this Englishman did refer us, or did refer me to Oswald -and say "He has been there before. Why don't you ask him?" - -Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Mexico City or Mexico before? - -Miss MUMFORD. I think we were speaking about Mexico generally, because -we had contemplated a trip down to Acapulco, and I was interested in -the difference in temperatures. - -Mr. BALL. Was that at a bus stop? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes, outside the bus; a rest stop. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you gained some impression, didn't you, from talking to -the English man, that he had not known Oswald before? - -Miss MUMFORD. Only by his reference to Oswald as "the young man sitting -next to me." They were talking quite a lot, the four of them. - -In the first two seats were the young English couple, and directly -behind them were Oswald, sitting on the aisle, and the Englishman, -sitting near the window. And we could hear them talking a lot, and -laughing, when we were sitting in the back, wondering what was going on. - -Mr. BALL. Did you gain the impression from anything else said by the -Englishman that he was not traveling in the company of Oswald? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. Nothing except that he referred to him as the young man---- - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; but they never spoke to each other on rest stops. -Oswald just went his way completely. - -Mr. BALL. When you arrived at Mexico City did the English man get off -the bus with Oswald, or at the same time when Oswald did? - -Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. I remember Oswald was standing -completely alone in the bus station. - -Mr. BALL. What did the Englishman do? - -Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember what he did at all. We got off the bus -and I don't remember seeing him leave the bus even. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any conversation with the English couple to -indicate that they had never before seen Oswald? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't think they made any reference to him at all. - -Mr. BALL. The Federal Bureau of Investigation agent that you talked -to on the 12th of December stated this: That in talking with the -Englishman, the elderly Englishman, he said, and I will quote what he -put down, "I gather the young man sitting with me has been to Mexico -City before." - -Do you remember words like that used by the Englishman? - -Miss MUMFORD. That may have been his words. I really don't remember. -That was just the general impression I got of what he said to me. - -Mr. BALL. Now, also at that time, the agent reported that it was your -opinion that "Oswald was traveling alone, and that he had had no -previous contact with any of the English-speaking people on the bus -prior to that time." Did you tell him that? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; and that is still my opinion. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have breakfast on that morning before you got into -one of your stops? Did you have a breakfast? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where? Did you notice the name of the place? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't know the name of the place. It was about 6 -a.m. in the morning and we arrived in Mexico City at about 10, so it -would have been about 4 hours before we arrived in the city. - -Mr. BALL. Did you eat with Oswald at that time; eat breakfast with him? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did he eat breakfast with anyone? - -Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember at that particular stage. Earlier in the -night, twice, I knew he ate alone. - -Mr. BALL. In the statement which the agent reported, the agent reported -his conversation with you, and he says that, "Oswald always ate alone -except for breakfast on the morning of September 27, 1963, when he ate -with the English couple." Do you remember whether Oswald ate breakfast -with the English couple? - -Miss MUMFORD. I don't; no. Pat may have remembered that. I don't -remember seeing him at all in that particular restaurant. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give this young man a nickname? - -Miss MUMFORD. "Texas." - -Mr. BALL. Did you call him "Texas" to his face? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You just called him "Texas" when you---- - -Miss MUMFORD. No; we wrote home from Mexico City describing the awful -bus trip, with crying kids, et cetera, and happened to mention that -there was a young Texan and we called him "Texas." - -Mr. BALL. But you didn't call him "Texas" to his face? - -Miss MUMFORD. No, No. - -Mr. BALL. How was this boy from Texas dressed? - -Miss MUMFORD. He was dressed casually. I don't remember what color -trousers he had on. He had on a dark sweater. I know that. It was a -wool sweater, a sort of a charcoal gray color. - -When we saw him on television, being arrested or being taken down to -the Dallas County jail, Patricia was the first to recognize that that -was the same sweater. We were reluctant to believe this, of course, -at first; that we knew this man. But she said the thinning hair on -the top, the thinning, curly, wiry hair, plus the sweater that she -recognized right away, and I recognized afterwards, made us almost -certain that this was the same man. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have a shirt on? - -Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. In discussing this with Patricia -she said that she felt he had some sort of a checked shirt on, just -underneath. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't have a tie on? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. Open? - -Miss MUMFORD. Open sport shirt; yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did he have on a jersey; pale-green jersey that you -noticed? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; not pale green. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you said he had some luggage. Did you see the luggage? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How much luggage did he have? - -Miss MUMFORD. Just one medium sized--I can't remember whether it was an -overnight bag or one of these pouch affairs, you know. - -Mr. BALL. Was it a zipper bag? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, I thought it was a zipper bag. I am not really -certain on that point. - -Mr. BALL. What color was it? - -Miss MUMFORD. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have the bag with him in the seat, or near the seat -where he was sitting? - -Miss MUMFORD. Up on the railing, above him. - -Mr. BALL. And when he left the bus in Mexico City did he carry the -luggage with him? - -Miss MUMFORD. I can't say for sure. - -Mr. BALL. When you last saw him standing in the bus depot did he have a -piece of luggage in his hand? - -Miss MUMFORD. I can't remember that either. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald tell you where he had boarded the bus? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't think he did. - -Mr. BALL. What was the name of the bus depot in Mexico City where you -last saw Oswald? - -Miss MUMFORD. I am not sure of that. I know the name of the bus, or I -am fairly certain of the name of the bus. But I am not sure of the bus -station. - -Mr. BALL. Were there a lot of bus stations? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, that is a point I am not sure of. We took a bus -down to Acapulco from Mexico City and I have the feeling that was the -busline we took to Acapulco. I know there are about three different -buslines situated in different places in Mexico City, and I am not sure -just what was the name of the depot we came into. - -Mr. BALL. Now, again, on the luggage, did he have one or more pieces of -luggage? - -Miss MUMFORD. I think it was one. - -Mr. BALL. Just one? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And that was a zipper type? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell me what color it was? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald on television after the President had been -shot, didn't you? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, tell me where you were when you saw the television and -who was with you and what you said. - -Miss MUMFORD. On the Friday night of the 22d, Pat and I left by bus -for Las Vegas for the weekend. Patricia was not working at that time. -I am not sure whether she had seen television shots--I think we had -both seen television shots before we left for the bus station. I am not -familiar with whether we realized at that stage that it was him or not. - -I remember in Las Vegas we had a television in our motel room and it -was then that we were both very sure that it was the same man. - -Mr. BALL. You saw him on television, did you? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you thought you recognized him then? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. As the man you had met on the bus? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The man you have referred to as "Texas"? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; well, we knew we had seen him somewhere before, and -we were sort of going over our travels in our mind, and it hit us that -it was on that bus, particularly when they said he was from Fort Worth, -or from Texas. - -Mr. BALL. Now, can you give me a description of the Englishman; what he -looked like? You told me his approximate age. - -Miss MUMFORD. He was short. Yes; about 5'8". Quite bald, plump; fat. He -was also dressed casually. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have a tie on? - -Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. He seemed to me not to be well dressed. -He was scruffy. He spoke well. He spoke with a cultured English accent -more than a Cockney or a suburbia accent. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you whether or not he had lived in Mexico before? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; Not--he didn't specify Mexico City. He said that he -had lived on and off in Mexico for 25 years. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you his name? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you were shown pictures of a man later on by the -Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. But they showed you pictures of a man, did they not? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; they showed us two pictures the first time, one -picture I was fairly certain was the same gentleman. The other picture, -whom they said was the same man, I couldn't give that description--I -couldn't say definitely that it was him or even the same man. - -The second time the FBI official showed me a photo was some weeks or -months later and I could make a definite--what is the word I want? - -Mr. BALL. Identification? - -Miss MUMFORD. Identification of that picture. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell the agent? - -Miss MUMFORD. Well, that third picture, on the second time he had -showed it to me, was, I was certain, the same man. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the elderly Englishman? - -Miss MUMFORD. The elderly Englishman. - -Mr. BALL. That you had seen on the bus? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see this Englishman again? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. Except this night, or this ride on the bus? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes; that was the only time. - -Mr. BALL. Did they tell you that the Englishman's name was John Howard -Bowen? - -Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't recall ever being told his name. - -Mr. BALL. Or that he might have had the name Albert Osborne? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember either of those? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. Was your friend with you when the agent showed you the -pictures? - -Miss MUMFORD. The first set of pictures, she was still in this country -and she was also shown them. The second set of pictures was shown to me -after she had left. - -Mr. BALL. When the first set of pictures was shown to your friend -Patricia Winston, what did she say? - -Miss MUMFORD. If I remember correctly, she felt the same way as I did: -that one of the photos was a good likeness, and the other one she -couldn't make an identification. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have anything else that you would care to say; any -impressions that you obtained from this ride on the bus that you think -might be of assistance to us? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. You have told us about all you know about that trip, have -you, now? - -Miss MUMFORD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. This will be written up and submitted to you for your -signature, I hope this week. - -Mr. DILLAVOU. You mentioned to me, Pam, something about the frugality -of this boy in his travels. I don't know if you want that---- - -Mr. BALL. Yes; we would like that. - -Miss MUMFORD. Oh, yes; he did say that the Hotel Cuba was a very cheap -place to stay, and I think either Patricia or myself made the comment, -"Well, that suits us fine because that is the way we do it, too." - -That is the only thing I can remember that he said that referred to his -way of travel. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about how much money he had, or how much -he could spend or would spend? - -Miss MUMFORD. No. - -Mr. BALL. That's all. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER - -The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 5:25 p.m., on March -25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise, I will swear you as a witness. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a -member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating -the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been -authorized to take testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant -to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November -29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. The Commission has -adopted rules of procedure in conformance with the Executive order -and the joint resolution. I understand that Mr. Rankin, the general -counsel to the Commission, wrote you a letter last week and told you -that I would contact you to take your testimony this week. He sent with -that letter, I understand, a copy of that Executive order and joint -resolution together with a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by -the Commission for the taking of testimony of witnesses. You received -that letter? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And copies of the papers I referred to? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Today we want to examine you briefly concerning the -possibility that you did some work on a rifle for a man by the name -of Oswald who may in fact have been Lee Harvey Oswald. Before we get -into that, we would like to have you state your full name for the court -reporter. - -Mr. RYDER. Dial Duwayne [spelling] R-y-d-e-r. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. RYDER. 2028 Harvard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What city? - -Mr. RYDER. Irving, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed, Mr. Ryder? - -Mr. RYDER. Irving Sports Shop. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that? - -Mr. RYDER. 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place is the Irving Sports Shop? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, it's a retail sporting goods store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do in your work there? - -Mr. RYDER. Actually, my capacity is, I guess you could refer to it as -service manager. I do all the service work, gun work, outboard motor -work, rig boats. I guess you say general flunkie or service man you -refer to it as. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you? - -Mr. RYDER. Twenty-five. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in Texas? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I was born in Claremont, Ill. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Texas? - -Mr. RYDER. 1945. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1945? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school? - -Mr. RYDER. Irving High School; actually, I went all the way through the -Irving public school system. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you graduated from the Irving Public High School? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you graduate from high school? - -Mr. RYDER. 1957. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been working for the Irving Sports Shop? - -Mr. RYDER. Five years be close enough; it's a little less than 5, but 5 -covers it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have children? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been married? - -Mr. RYDER. Five years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the military service? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What branch were you in? - -Mr. RYDER. Went in the National Guard, 49th Armored Division which I am -still an active member. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of the National Guard? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you serve on active duty with the U.S. Army? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For 2 years? - -Mr. RYDER. No; actually it was, let's see, I guess you say it was 15 -months, 16, something like that. In other words, while I was on 6 -months' training, they activated the 49th Armored Division and I was -called in to stay 9 extra months on active duty. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed while on active duty? - -Mr. RYDER. Fort Leonard Wood, Fort Knox for advanced individual -training, and Fort Polk, La., with the 49th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of training did you receive? - -Mr. RYDER. Armored tank training. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You served as a tanker at Fort Polk? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank in the National Guard? - -Mr. RYDER. Now? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. RYDER. Sergeant. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was it at the time you went into active duty? - -Mr. RYDER. It was June 11 in 1960 when I reported to Fort Leonard Wood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. June what? What was your rank when you went on active -duty? - -Mr. RYDER. I was just an E-2. - -Mr. LIEBELER. E-2? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; or private--beginner--actually, I had 3 months -actually, National Guard work which waives your time for E-2, three -months' period. Of course, there isn't much difference in pay rate. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It appears that there was a newspaper story that appeared -in the Dallas Times Herald on November 28, 1963, and apparently a -version of that story was carried in the New York Times on November 29, -1963, which mentions you. Do you recall being interviewed by a reporter -from a Dallas newspaper? - -Mr. RYDER. After the story was out; yes--before, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, the deal is the story came out on Thanksgiving and -early that morning the telephone rang--I would say roughly 7:30 or 8, -something like that--and I answered the phone and a guy introduced -himself and I told him I didn't have any comment and hung up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was a newspaperman? - -Mr. RYDER. To tell you the truth, I didn't pay that much attention. I -was half asleep because it was a day off. I was going to get some of -that extra dozing time, you know, and I just told him I didn't have any -comment and hung the phone up and took it off the hook and later on -that day, CBS television came out and they were wanting a blownup deal -on it to put on television when they found it was opposite which came -out in the Times Herald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you were not interviewed as far as you -can remember by a newspaper reporter prior to the time the story came -out in the Times Herald? - -Mr. RYDER. Not as far as I know. I was interviewed by the FBI and -Dallas Police Department and I believe a couple Secret Service men came -out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of those interviewed you first? - -Mr. RYDER. The FBI was the first one out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what the date was when the FBI first -interviewed you? - -Mr. RYDER. It was on Monday, the day of the funeral of President -Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25. Friday was the 22d, -Saturday would be the 23d, Sunday the 24h, Monday the 25th. Do you -remember the name of the FBI man? - -Mr. RYDER. Mr. Horton. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Horton [spelling] E-m-o-r-y E. H-o-r-t-o-n? - -Mr. RYDER. I didn't get his first name. His last name stuck with -me--well, I don't know why; it just stayed there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Horton say to you and what did you say to -him, to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. RYDER. Of course, we were closed on that Monday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Irving Sports Shop was closed? - -Mr. RYDER. Right, and he came to the house, so, at that time he showed -me pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald and pictures of the gun and asked me -about it. I said "Well, the face and the body features of Oswald there -was real common in this country." I mean, you know, in this area in -Texas and that to say that I had him in the shop, actually, this was -after a period of time that we boiled it down to. Oh, I told him I had -a ticket with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling -and tapping and boresighting--no address, or name; he didn't say he'd -like to see the ticket and was looking at the pictures, then I seen the -gun. Of course, from the picture I told him as far as I could remember -I told him I hadn't mounted that scope, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You based that statement that you had not mounted the -scope on your recollection that you had not worked on that particular -kind of rifle, is that correct? - -Mr. RYDER. Right, on this Italian rifle--I never worked on them. I seen -them but as far as doing any physical work, I haven't done none even to -this date, I haven't worked on any of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that? - -Mr. RYDER. I am positive on that, very positive. So, we went up to the -Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed -him. It was just a little repair ticket actually what it amounted to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it have a number on it? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; I don't remember the number. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give the tag to Mr. Horton? - -Mr. RYDER. No; he told us to hold on to it, keep it and they would -probably get it later on and they did. It seems to me like it was 2 or -3 weeks ago they came and got it now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just 2 or 3 weeks ago? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who came and got it? - -Mr. RYDER. I don't know; the boss, Mr. Greener, gave it to him. It was -on Saturday, I believe it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did that tag indicate the nature of the work that was to -be done? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, actually, all it had on it was drill and tapping; -it said drill and tap and a price of $4.50, I believe it was and -boresight, of course, no charge on that, so by us charging $1.50 a -hole--that's what we normally charge for drillin' and tappin'--would on -this particular thing, would have been three holes drill and tap, where -in the picture of the gun there was only two screws holding the mount -of the scope on which is, more or less, made it positive we hadn't -mounted it on the gun, so Mr. Horton, so he took it for granted that I -hadn't done the work on it and I am sure I haven't because---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of gun was it? - -Mr. RYDER. It was a 6.5 Italian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the make? - -Mr. RYDER. Like I say, I have seen several of them but as far as who -made the gun, I don't know; probably some Italian gun manufacturer but -as far as who it was, I don't know. I can't read Italian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell from looking at the ticket when this work -was done? First of all, the tag was not dated? - -Mr. RYDER. The tag was not dated. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you make any estimate of the time by looking at -this ticket as to when the work was done? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, it was done sometime between the 1st and 15th of -November. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that? - -Mr. RYDER. Because the work was done while the Greeners or the Woody -Francis Greeners, the owners of the sport shop were on vacation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know? - -Mr. RYDER. They were gone that 2 weeks. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know it was done while they were gone? - -Mr. RYDER. Actually, I can't really say too definitely sure but I am -quite sure it was because he doesn't remember seeing the gun in the -shop while he was there. In other words, before they left, and of -course, it was gone when they came back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "the gun," what do you mean? - -Mr. RYDER. The one I worked on--in other words, he keeps a pretty good -watch on my work to make sure I'm getting it out on time and he will -check fairly close every day, every other day, and check to make sure -I'm getting the work out, that old work isn't laying there to be done. -He's pretty sharp on remembering names and he would have remembered -that quite surely if---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have much work of this type? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did have quite a lot of work at this time mounting -telescopic sights? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; when they left, that's 2 weeks prior to the opening of -the deer season here and I guess that 2 weeks I mounted 35, 40, maybe -50 scopes in that week as well as run the business while they was gone -which is quite a headache in itself. That's just prior to hunting -season, you see. Just like I told everybody all along, I couldn't say -specifically if it was by seeing pictures if it was him or another -Oswald. In other words, I don't put that close relation to a man's face -to a particular item of work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did the deer season open--the 14th or 15th of -November? - -Mr. RYDER. The 15th, I believe it was this year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you mounted perhaps as many as 50 scopes in -the 2 weeks preceding that day? - -Mr. RYDER. Very possibly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the last 2 weeks in October. Did you -have a similar number of scopes to mount during that time? - -Mr. RYDER. Not quite that many. Lot of these guys like to get their -scopes mounted just before they leave. For instance, buying these -license plates and getting your car inspected works the same way. They -wait until the last minute before they really get ready to go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of about how many scopes you -might have mounted during the last 2 weeks in October? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I sure wouldn't say specific to remember, sure -wouldn't be sure about the number. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It would not have been as many as you did the first 2 -weeks in November but would it have been more than 10? - -Mr. RYDER. Oh, yeah; I'm quite sure. I say roughly 25 scopes. Of -course, a lot of these people that buy their scopes wholesale or buy -a cheap scope that we don't handle, we handle the better priced and -better scopes and they buy these things and mounts and everything -somewhere else and have us mount them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The thing I am working toward here is trying to fix the -date on which this ticket with the name Oswald on it--when the work was -done. - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you mounted, say, 25 scopes or approximately that many -during the last 2 weeks of October, isn't it possible that the Oswald -scope could have been mounted during that period of time and your boss -would not have remembered the name Oswald as being connected with one -of those rifles? - -Mr. RYDER. Could have, but like I say, he's pretty sharp. He's pretty -smart; I mean in keeping up with the business, you know what I mean. In -other words, the flow of the work that I had; in other words, he keeps -a close watch on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you stated that the repair tag had a number on it. -Are these repair tags taken off a book with tags with consecutive -numbers on them? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do these numbers come from? - -Mr. RYDER. We buy repair tags, of course, they have a main base of -the tag, just a tag you can tear off and you can tear off--say I have -number 41626 of the other piece; in other words, have the right tag on -the gun. As far as sequence, we don't use any. We have a box and we -reach over, get a tag, put a man's name on it. The same tag is used on -reels, rods, outboard motors, boats. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no possible way in which you could fix the -date by observing the sequence of the number on the tag? - -Mr. RYDER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you limit it to a period of 2 weeks? - -Mr. RYDER. Like I say, it would be from the 1st to around the 14th or -15th of November while the Greeners was away. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said before you were quite sure you never worked on -a---- - -Mr. RYDER. The Italian gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Italian rifle. Do you have any recollection of the -kind of rifle that this Oswald tag referred to? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't. That's another place where we did--in -other words, I did so many and I was so rushed that I didn't pay a -whole lot of attention to what tag was to have such and such a scope -put on. That is where actually our fall-down went on the thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There is no indication on the tag as to what kind of -rifle it would be? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you helped at all by the fact that the tag indicates -that three holes were drilled? Do you ordinarily drill three holes on -all rifles? - -Mr. RYDER. We boiled it down to this: That there are two type bases -used that have three. The Redfield base and the Buehler base and then, -actually, these could go on any gun that you want. In other words, if -a man bought a Redfield or Buehler base they can be adapted to any gun -with three holes. Now any imported, we couldn't say definitely if it -was imported because the Springfield O3A3 requires three holes; the -British 303 requires three holes. These are guns they use and that's -the only ones we could think of offhand that would require just three -holes, so we boiled it down, it was either Buehler, Redfield base or -with the Weaver base being on the Springfield O3A3. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or the 303 British rifle? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say you boiled this down in your conversation with -Horton from the FBI? - -Mr. RYDER. Actually, this was amongst ourselves, I and Mr. Greener. -Actually, there was a lady from the Washington press, of course, I -don't know, I forgotten which paper she worked with but she was with -the Washington press and we discussed this with her quite thoroughly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name? - -Mr. RYDER. I sure don't. She, in turn, called Klein's and found out -the rifle that was used in the assassination had already been drilled -and tapped. In other words, he had bought the scope and rifle from -Klein's and they were shipped together and all he had to do was attach -it to this particular gun. In other words, the one he used in the -assassination. Of course, they order by serial number. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You also testified you did not mount any scope on an -Italian rifle? - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say, that when you mount a scope you do not charge -for the process of boresighting, is that correct? - -Mr. RYDER. Actually, it's hard to say, really. At that time we were -not charging if we drilled and tapped one, we didn't do it. Now we do -charge extra, $1.50 bore sighting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall if there was an extra $1.50 for -boresighting indicated on the ticket in question? - -Mr. RYDER. I don't even remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing that point with Agent Horton? - -Mr. RYDER. Yeah; we talked maybe we did charge $1.50 for the -boresighting. As a matter of fact, I did because $6--or was it $4.50--I -don't even remember that now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't now remember whether the ticket was for $4.50 -or $6? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right, right now, I don't. It seems like to me it was -for $4.50 for drill, tapping, and bore sighting. I believe it was for -$4.50. In other words, I didn't charge for boresighting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do when you bore sight a rifle? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, I use a sight-a-line. That's actually three different -things but, what it is, it's an optic deal made by this manufacturing -company that has a little cross hair in it just like a scope. It lays -like such instead of like such [illustrating]. By taking a little sprig -that fits different caliber rifles, fits in the rifle, you look through -the scope and line the four cross hairs together to the center point -of the cross hairs. It doesn't zero a gun by any means. It just gets -you--oh, better where you can tell where you're hitting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, you can't really zero a gun any by just boresighting -it? - -Mr. RYDER. No; actually, it lines your bore and your sight at one point -or close to one point where you can get your point from there without -wasting ammunition. If I were to anchor a barrel or piece of pipe in -a vise and pick out a spot over there on that building [indicating] -somewhere; say, draw a circle and I line this with that and aline the -sight, I have a scope or open sight either one, over to that point, I -go to shoot at it offhand and there's a different way I hold that gun. -This breaks it down to a fine deal where you understand the difference -between boresighting and zero. If you been in the army, you know the -difference. In other words, this method I was just describing say, to -the building, is the way we use the bore sight. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But now you have a little machine that does that? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; we have this little optical instrument we use now which -makes it simple and faster. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever worked with any rifles that came from -Klein's in Chicago or mail-order rifles that came with scopes mounted -on it? - -Mr. RYDER. You can't tell unless a man tells you. In other words, to -look at one you can't tell any difference in workmanship. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as how the scope was mounted, you mean? - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of knowing whether these scopes are -boresighted when mounted by a mail-order house or not? - -Mr. RYDER. Most likely they are. Now, I don't know how they operate, -if they do boresight any there or not. I do know for a fact if you -boresight or zero a boresight on a Redfield base or any base except -Bausch and Lomb, other than those, other than the Bausch and Lomb, if -you take the scope off and put it back on you have to rezero. In other -words, if they did boresight it and take it back off and ship it, it's -going to be entirely different when the man receives the gun. It might -be close enough for a man to shoot one in but won't be near as close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that a rifle would have to be zeroed in any -event after it had been shipped from a mail-order house before it -could be used to shoot accurately? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; take for example, I have a Model 70 Winchester .30-06 -caliber with a K-4 Weaver scope; nearly every season prior to deer -season I will shoot it in and I have found several times it has been -off just by riding in the back of the car. Taking it in and out of a -gun case, things like that will make them off. In other words, they -are not built so rigid that a little something here and there can get -bumped loose so it would be like I say, he would have to have it zeroed -after he received it from the mail-order house, most definitely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If I were to tell you that this particular rifle had been -carried to New Orleans and back in a station wagon and had laid in a -garage in Irving for 2 months prior to the assassination and had been -moved around in the garage, would that lead you to believe it might be -out of sight at that time? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; it could be very possible. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be probable or do you have any -experience to make a judgment like that? - -Mr. RYDER. Like I say, of course, I take proper good care of the gun -I got and I have to readjust it quite often when I shoot it in. Of -course, then again, too, later on, from one season to the next I might -change from the way I held my gun which is another thing to make a lot -of difference in the way I shoot but one to be carried that far, unless -it was really taken care of can very, very easily be knocked out of -alinement or out of adjustment. Another thing, too, on just looking at -this picture---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. The picture of the rifle? - -Mr. RYDER. The picture of the rifle that Mr. Horton had; this was a -real cheap, common, real flimsy looking--of course, I couldn't tell by -just looking at the picture say the type of material it was made of, -but to me it looked rather cheap. It would be very easily knocked out -of adjustment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never been shown the actual rifle itself, is -that correct? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I haven't. I would like to see which mount it is, -see whose make it is, but I haven't seen it yet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by an agent of the -Secret Service? - -Mr. RYDER. They came out and talked to Mr. Greener rather than -myself. Well, I talked with them, too; we had a triangular, circular -conversation--Mr. Greener, myself, and the agent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the agent's name? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I said his name was -Elmer W. Moore? - -Mr. RYDER. Doesn't ring a bell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the Secret Service agent that you -were certain after viewing photographs of Oswald that you had never -done any work for him; in fact had never seen him? - -Mr. RYDER. Not actually in that tone; like I say, like I told all of -them that interviewed me, even the reporter, that his features are very -common, I say, for the working class in the Dallas and Fort Worth area -and he could have been in the shop, sport shop, I might ought to say, -and be easily mistaken for another person or another person similar -to his features could have been in, but I couldn't say specific if he -had been in the shop or not, I mean, that's something I won't draw a -conclusion on because like I say his features, face and all is common -with the working class here and he could easily be mistaken one way or -the other either for him or for another person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as outside of the shop is concerned, you see, -I'm troubled to some extent because I have before me a report of the -agent from the Secret Service and a report from the agent of the FBI. -One report says you are quite sure you have seen and talked to Oswald -and the other one says you are quite sure you have not seen him. I am -puzzled by those statements. - -Mr. RYDER. Like I continue to say all the way through on their -investigation, both that Secret Service man and from the FBI that he -could have been in the shop; I could have talked to him but to say I -had definitely, I couldn't say I have really talked to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say you definitely have ever seen him outside -of the shop anyplace? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't believe I have. I mean I couldn't say -specific because back again to the common features, so on and so forth, -but, actually, we have drawn a conclusion, of course, that is, I and -the boys and people concerned at the sport shop there that it was -either this Oswald with another gun or another Oswald with another gun. -We know definitely that it was another gun. We know that for sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have already carefully considered the possibility -of identifying that other gun but you are not able to do it? - -Mr. RYDER. Right; Mr. Greener called all the other Oswalds listed in -the Dallas and Irving directories. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did that? - -Mr. RYDER. Right, with no avail; in other words, nothing turned up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whose handwriting does the name Oswald appear to be -written in? - -Mr. RYDER. It's mine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is your own handwriting? - -Mr. RYDER. It is my own handwriting; the whole thing was written up by -me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first discover this tag? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, it's kind of funny, actually, how I found the tag. My -workbench generally is cluttered up, you know how tools get scattered -around and I was--I had been to the Evinrude Service School---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. RYDER. Yeah, at the Marriott over here and we were talking about it -that evening and, of course, by the time I got back from the service -clinic was just about time to close and we left and that Saturday -afternoon I started cleaning off the workbench and I found the ticket -of which I didn't say anything to anybody else there and when Mr. -Horton came out on Monday, well, then I told him we had a tag. I -didn't want to keep anything back but after he showed me the picture -and everything I apparently drew my conclusions of not working on that -particular gun anyway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop? - -Mr. RYDER. Actually, I don't know. He evidently was checking all of -the---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Gunshops? - -Mr. RYDER. Gunshops and hit us on Monday, well, let's see, it was, oh, -it was about 10:30 or 11 that morning whenever he first came out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not familiar with this particular kind of rifle, -are you? You have not worked on any similar rifles? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, there's quite a few similar but this particular one is -a real oddity. It's an odd job and I have never worked on any. I have -seen several. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever broken one down? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir; never have. As a matter of fact, the only thing I -can remember doing is just pulling the bolt back on it and closing it -back up. That, to me, is common; I always make sure there's no shells -or anything before I look at one. That's the first thing if you hand me -a pistol, I kick the cylinder out or spin it through to make sure it's -unloaded but this gun is real odd, I mean it's a crude-built gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When a gun is broken down, by that, I am sure you -understand that I mean you remove the action and the barrel from the -stock. The rifle then is, generally speaking, in two shorter pieces. - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The two pieces you have are shorter than the gun is when -put together? - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is generally true because the stock of the rifle -doesn't ordinarily extend to the end of the barrel? - -Mr. RYDER. Right; now on some military rifles they do extend all the -way to the end of the barrel or close to the end, put it that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you note in connection with the picture that you -observed of this rifle they found in the Texas School Book Depository -Building, did you note whether or not on that rifle the stock went -very close to the end of the barrel or didn't come out so far? - -Mr. RYDER. As far as I remember it had been cut off, or, in other -words, it didn't go to the end of the barrel, as far as I remember, I -don't. I am quite sure it didn't. It went a little over half way in the -picture that I saw. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that sometimes in the military rifles the -stock goes quite far along the barrel? - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not a common type of construction in a domestic -rifle or nonmilitary rifle? - -Mr. RYDER. Right; or nonmilitary or what we call a sporter rifle your -stock goes half way to the end of the barrel leaving the end of the -barrel to wiggle as it may. A military rifle, M-1, Garand, O3A3, 303, -they all are of wood and completely encased around the barrel. In other -words, you had a piece run all the way on the bottom of it; piece that -filled in on the top side. Lot of people use military rifles or use -sporter rifles that some cut the stock off at a slight angle, say, a -little above half way of the barrel. Others go ahead and spend and -buy the sporter-type stock they can fit their gun to, but as far as I -remember, this stock on the picture didn't go all the way to the end of -the barrel. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Unless you can think of anything else that you want -to add at this point I just tell you for the record that my present -inclination is to close the deposition at this point. I may wish to -question you again and possibly bring the rifle down here so you can -look at it. Unless you can think of anything else you want to add at -this time that you think might be helpful, we will terminate. Can you -think of anything else? - -Mr. RYDER. No; I can't think of anything right now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask one or two more questions. You mentioned -you were interviewed by the Dallas police force about this. Do you -remember the name of the man or men who talked to you on the Dallas -police force? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't. Actually, I say Dallas Police Department, -it was the sheriff's department rather than the Dallas Police -Department, really. Of course, I connect the two together but they're -two separate organizations; I know that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In view of my former statement, I would like to thank you -at this time. If we decide to continue with this, we will advise you in -the future. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER RESUMED - -The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 12:45 p.m., on April -1, 1964, at the Irving Sports Shop, 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, -Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the continued deposition of Dial Duwayne Ryder. -The witness having been previously sworn, we will continue with the -examination. - -First of all, Mr. Ryder, I want to show you a picture that has been -marked Exhibit No. 1, on Mr. Greener's deposition. I ask you if that is -a picture of the repair tag that you found here in the shop? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; that is the one right there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It has the name Oswald on it and the words drill and tap -$4.50; bore sight, $1.50; total $6. - -Mr. RYDER. That is the one we was thinking about the other day. Did it -have the $6 tag or the $4.50 tag, because we sometimes charge for the -boresight and sometimes don't, depending on the type work we do or what -we actually do on the thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the exact details under which you found -the tag in the shop? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, we talked about this thing on Saturday morning and -like I said before, like you saw the workbench up there today, that it -is cluttered up, and on Saturday evening I was cleaning it off and -found the tag laying back on the workbench. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Saturday following the assassination? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You found the tag there yourself? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out here prior to that time? - -Mr. RYDER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They had not? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI first come out? - -Mr. RYDER. On Monday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On Monday? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; that was on Monday, of the funeral of the late -President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25, 1963, when the FBI came -out on Monday and you gave them the tag or showed them this tag; is -that right? - -Mr. RYDER. He told us to hold onto it, and then they later came by and -got the tag. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to the newspaper reporter about this? - -Mr. RYDER. There were several out here after the FBI had been out, and -we told them the same thing that we told the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't talk to any newspaper reporter before the -FBI came out here? - -Mr. RYDER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that? - -Mr. RYDER. I am positive about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was your impression at the time the FBI came that they -were making a routine check of all guns? - -Mr. RYDER. That is my opinion. That is the idea I had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any special reason why they came to -this particular gun shop? - -Mr. RYDER. No; he didn't give any specific reason. He was just checking -us out. Like I say, probably just routine like he checked all others. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I show you two pictures that have been marked -Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 on Mr. Greener's deposition. They are pictures of -a rifle, and I ask you if you have ever seen a rifle like that or ever -worked on one here in your shop? - -Mr. RYDER. I have seen them but never have worked on one of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you seen them before the assassination? - -Mr. RYDER. This is what I was talking about the other day. This is not -as plain a picture as Mr. Horton had. Evidently that is a reprint, but -there are two screws, one here and one here, where on the tag I have -charged for three holes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the screws on Exhibit No. 3, that hold -the scope mount to the rifle; is that correct? - -Mr. RYDER. Mr. Horton, the FBI man, on the rifle he had it was real -plain and you could see these two screws, and this was a hole, but -there wasn't any screws. There was just two screws in the mount. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The mount had three holes but only two screws? - -Mr. RYDER. That is apparently in the picture you have here, and this is -what I was referring to as a cheap mount. This looked to me like even -in this picture it was real thin gage metal. I can show you something -like that, that we use on a .22 scope, and that is all we use. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But in your opinion it is too light a mount? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; it is too easy to get jarred off on a high-powered -rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would throw the accuracy of the rifle off, wouldn't -it? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is all I have, Mr. Ryder. I just wanted you to look -at the pictures, and I thank you very much. - -Mr. RYDER. I don't know which one it was, but it looked--it looks like -a copy of the one the FBI man had, except it's been copied over and -over. This is not as plain as the one he had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you if the FBI or anybody that ever talked to -you ever showed you any pictures of a man and asked you if you could -identify that man as Oswald? - -Mr. RYDER. He showed me a picture of Oswald, but like I told him, I -couldn't say definitely if I knew him or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some other pictures that we have. The -first five pictures have previously been marked Commission Exhibits -Nos. 451 and 453 through 456, and I will ask you if you can recognize -the man or men described in these pictures. Have you ever seen them -anywhere, as far as you can recall? And second, if you have ever seen -him in the shop? - -Mr. RYDER. No; they don't look like--too familiar to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do they appear to be pictures of the same man to you, or -a different man? - -Mr. RYDER. They look actually to me like they are different men. These -two look real close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Commission Exhibits Nos. 456 and 451? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; they look real similar in their hairline. Actually, I -guess this looks about the same, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 455. But the other -two pictures look a little different? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The other two being Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and -454? Now I show you a picture that has been marked previously as Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-A. I ask you to look at all the individuals in that -picture and tell me if you recognize any of them. - -There are two individuals that have been marked by a green mark, but -don't confine your attention to them. - -Mr. RYDER. This one I know is Oswald, as the pictures in the paper, but -as far as seeing the guy personally, I don't think I ever have. I could -have, but being in business here, it would be hard to say. Any of the -others, I don't believe I have seen any of the others, but this one, -like I say, just by picture---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the man that has been marked with an -"X"? - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or with two lines as opposed to one straight line on -Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. I now will show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, -and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? There is a man -marked with a green mark in the left-hand corner of the picture. - -Mr. RYDER. This would be the only one. Like I say, seeing him on -television and in the paper, that is as far as I could go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The man marked with the green line, is that right? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture which has been marked Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-C. Do you recognize him? - -Mr. RYDER. This is the same picture that the FBI had of Oswald, the -same picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember seeing this man in the shop? - -Mr. RYDER. Like I say, as many people as we have in here, it would -be hard to distinguish one from another unless they come in quite -frequently and you begin to know them. Then you would know what he -looks like and kind of put a name with a face. There are several people -that come in here that have been coming in for several years, but I -can't make this old ticker work up there as to their names. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you aren't able to say whether this man was in the -shop? - -Mr. RYDER. He may have or may not have been. I couldn't say for sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you, Mr. Ryder. We appreciate your -cooperation The Commission wants to thank you very much for the -cooperation that you have given us. - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER RESUMED - -The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 7:40 p.m., on July 23, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I believe this is the third time that we have met and I -have advised you previously of the nature of the Commission's work and -you are familiar with the kind of problems that we have? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are aware of your rights to have an attorney if -you want to--we have already discussed that previously, as I recall, -and you know who I am, and, of course, you are Dial Ryder and you -work at the Irving Sports Shop, and we have had previous testimony -concerning the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald may have had some -work done on his rifle in your sports shop. - -When I talked to you previously, I asked you if I recall correctly -about any conversations that you might have had with a newspaper -reporter from The Dallas Times Herald; do you recall me asking you -about that? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that you told me that you had -not talked to any newspaper reporters from The Dallas Times Herald in -connection with the story that appeared in that newspaper on November -28, 1963? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And specifically you had said that you had not talked to -a newspaper reporter on the morning of November 28, 1963, although you -did say that on that morning, sometime around about 7:30 a newspaper -reporter did call you from The Dallas Times Herald and told you that -he wanted to talk to you about this whole situation and you refused to -talk to him? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you hung up the telephone and as I recall, you -testified that you then took the receiver off the hook, making it -impossible for any other calls to come into your telephone; is that -correct? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you were interviewed by the FBI again on May 18, -1964, and you told them that same story; is that correct? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in fact correct? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right. It sure is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to advise you of the fact that we have located the -newspaper reporter who supposedly talked to you that morning and his -name is Hunter Schmidt, Jr., and that he has testified that he came to -work at The Dallas Times Herald that morning and had a lead on this -story that he had gotten from an anonymous telephone call that some -woman made to the FBI and one was made to a television station here in -Dallas telling them that Oswald had had some work done in your sports -shop and I think I previously asked you about this and you said you -didn't have anything to do with those anonymous telephone calls; is -that right? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Schmidt says that he started looking for your name which -he got from somewhere, apparently in connection with the Dallas Police -Department and tracked you down at your home and called you between -7:30 and 8 o'clock on the morning of November 28, 1963, and that -apparently your wife answered the telephone as you were still asleep -and you came to the telephone and you appeared to be sleepy and that -he talked to you for an extended period of time, and that you gave him -the information that subsequently appeared in the newspaper article on -November 28, 1963, in The Dallas Times Herald. - -Mr. Schmidt was advised when he testified that you had denied giving -him this story, although you had admitted that some reporter had -called you on the telephone that morning. Is the name Hunter Schmidt -familiar to you at all? - -Mr. RYDER. No; it's not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not that was the particular -newspaper reporter that called you that morning? - -Mr. RYDER. I couldn't say definitely for sure--like I said--I told them -I had no comment on it and hung the thing up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to the fact that Mr. Schmidt has so -testified, I have been advised that one of Mr. Schmidt's associates was -sitting right there in the office at the time Schmidt called you and -heard the entire conversation between Schmidt and yourself and he said -that Schmidt did talk to you for an extended period of time, or to a -person by the name of Dial Ryder, who gave him this information about -the gun work being done at the Irving Sports Shop and he said he heard -the whole conversation. - -Mr. Schmidt has, during the course of his testimony, volunteered to -take a polygraph examination on this whole question as to whether or -not he talked to you that morning and as to whether or not you gave him -the information about the gun ticket and about the three holes that -were drilled in the rifle and all the other information that appeared -in that newspaper story. I am not here to say myself who is telling the -truth, because I don't know, but it is perfectly obvious that one of -you is not telling the truth, either Mr. Schmidt or you. I don't know -what reasons you would have for not telling the truth, and I don't know -what reasons Mr. Schmidt would have for not telling the truth, but I -wonder if on reflection and in view of the statements that I have just -made to you, if you can ponder this whole question and perhaps refresh -your recollection. I don't know whether you talked to this newspaper -reporter or not, but in view of the fact that we have this other -testimony, I wonder if it would in some way refresh your recollection -that in fact you did talk to this man? - -Mr. RYDER. No; like I said, the only people I talked to were Mr. Horton -with the FBI and then the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's -department--is the only ones I talked to about this, until, like I -told you--the CBS reporters came out and we made the television deal -after radios and everything got the thing and then we thought we had it -straightened out with them, but as far as that morning, I didn't talk -to anybody over the phone about it except I said I had no comment and -hung up the receiver and then took the receiver back off of the hook -and went on about my business of sleeping on this Sunday morning. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Edith Whitworth? - -Mr. RYDER. Let's see--there was a lady from the Washington Press. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; this is a woman who used to run a furniture shop in -Irving, which is down on Irving Boulevard. - -Mr. RYDER. No; I don't know her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Greener knows her? - -Mr. RYDER. Now, he might--I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any woman by the name of Mrs. Gertrude Hunter -who also lives in Irving and is a friend of Mrs. Whitworth's? - -Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't know them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you aware of the fact that just down Irving Boulevard -from the Irving Sports Shop, a block and a half or so west, there used -to be another gunshop where a man carried guns? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, there was a little place down there where he handled -guns--I don't know whether--if he was able to work on them or not, -but it was about two blocks down the street or a block and a half or -something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the west? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And do you know that there used to be a used furniture -shop that was there? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; it's still there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know the people that ran it? - -Mr. RYDER. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt is sitting out here in the front office -and I'm going to ask him to come in and have you two gentlemen discuss -this problem, see if there is some way we can resolve this story on -this telephone conversation. - -(At this point Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., entered the room.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have brought Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., into the room -and Mr. Schmidt has previously been sworn as a witness and testified -yesterday on this question. I introduce you to Mr. Dial Ryder. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Mr. Ryder, how do you do? - -Mr. LIEBELER. As I have indicated to Mr. Ryder, Mr. Schmidt testified -yesterday that on the morning of November 28, 1963, you came to work in -your office at the Dallas Times Herald and received information of some -sort that possibly Lee Oswald had had some work done on a rifle, on his -rifle or a rifle, in some sports shops or gunshop in the outlying areas -of Dallas. Would you tell us briefly what happened after that, Mr. -Schmidt? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. After I got the tip, I traced it down and thought it -was Garland first and I looked it up in the phonebook--the city -directory--and the usual sources that we go through--I looked through -and this Ryder was the only one that I could find, or apparently he was -the one that said what I was looking for. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get Ryder's name in the first place; do you -know? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was from a tip around the police station. Now, I -don't remember. I have been trying to remember where--who specifically -it came from, but it was one of the many we were getting at that time. -As I said before, we had several different leads on different stories -and that they were coming in pretty thick, so I don't really remember -where I got the Ryder name, but it came from around the police station, -one of our boys covering this angle of the assassination, called in -from down there that a Ryder was supposed to have mounted a scope on a -rifle for a customer named Oswald, so I started checking from there, -and like I said yesterday, I thought at first it was Garland and I had -to do it by a process of elimination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you went through the city directory and you finally -found it in the phone book? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe I used the phonebooks and I found this Ryder and -I called him up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About what time in the morning? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, 7:30 or 8--something like that. I come in at 7 o'clock -and it may be a little after 8, but I estimate it was between 7:30 -or 8, but it was early, and I called the Ryder and there was a woman -answered the phone. - -Then, apparently the Ryder I talked to, and I guess it's this same Dial -Ryder, I'm not sure, but the Ryder I talked to apparently had to get -out of bed, there was a little interval, and come to the phone, and the -person I talked to sounded sleepy. He gave me the information I got and -it was very matter of fact and I believe you used the term "cordial" -yesterday. I guess--that would be it--he was not antagonistic, but he -was very--just very conversational in the question and answer session -and explanation, and he said he had a ticket with the name Oswald on -it and that it could have been the Oswald. He said he didn't remember -for sure what the face looked like with the Oswald ticket, but he -understands--he said he understood that this Oswald had a very common -face for this area and I asked about buying ammunition or how many -time he came in. I think he was sort of vague on that--he wasn't sure -how many times he had been in, and besides talking about the sighting -the rifle and the boring of the holes, that was in essence what it -was, what we had in the paper. I believe I explained to you about the -boresighting bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was some conversation between you about that? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. He mentioned the boresighting and I don't think I -understood it fully and that might have been a little incorrect in the -paper, but that was the only thing that this technicality bit about the -boresighting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Ryder, you have been sitting here watching Mr. -Schmidt and listening to his voice; does his voice seem at all familiar -to you? - -Mr. RYDER. Sure doesn't--not to me at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what your recollection is of what -happened on that morning? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, like I have said before, and it is in my -testimony--the FBI has the same thing--the phone rang. It was roughly -7:30, I would say it was closer to 7:30 than it was 8, and the reporter -asked me had I mounted the scope on the Oswald gun and I told him I -had no comment and I hung up, I mean, I took the receiver off the hook -and that's all I done and all I said here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt, after listening to Mr. Ryder's voice, -can you identify it as the voice you say you spoke to on the telephone -that day, or are you unable to do it? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I couldn't honestly identify him by voice now. It was -6 or 7 months ago and I only talked to Ryder once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ryder, do you know of any other Ryders out there in -the area who would have any knowledge of this gun ticket at the Irving -Sports Shop? - -Mr. RYDER. Not that I know of--not that I know of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as I indicated to you, Mr. Schmidt has volunteered -and requested a polygraph examination to try to clear this matter up, -and I wonder if you have any suggestion that you think of as to how it -might be done? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, I'll take the thing if you want me to take it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to ask you to do it, but if you want -to request it and assist the Commission in clearing this matter up, -I think we could make arrangements to have a polygraph examination -administered to both of you. - -Mr. RYDER. Well, I'm not one to volunteer for anything. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I am perfectly willing to, because I stand beside that -story. I don't know this man personally, if this is the Ryder of the -gun shop, the Irving Sports Shop, and the same one that identified -himself that morning--that was the information I got from him and I -don't have any reason to lie about it, you know, I get the same amount -of pay, I don't get any extra money for that story and I didn't even -get a byline for the story. I knew that it would be just part of a -story. So, I feel like I am a professional with my business and I just -don't like to be doubted. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not there was anybody else in -your office at the time you heard this conversation that you had with -Ryder? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. There were several men around there but I'm not sure -whether they recall this conversation or not or whether they were even -paying any attention. There are a couple of men that sit right to my -left and a couple to my right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the Commission has followed the practice of due -regard for the civil rights of the people who have been involved -in this thing and it is not requesting anybody to take a polygraph -examination, and it is not prepared to make an exception in this case -for you, Mr. Ryder. If you want to volunteer to do so, the Commission -will take it under advisement and decide what it wants to do, but it is -not going to request you to do so, and I cannot even put myself in the -position of even asking you to or urging you to or suggesting that you -do so. That's entirely up to you. - -Mr. RYDER. Well, like I said, I will take the thing if it boils down to -that. Like I say, and I have contended all along, that I did not talk -to anybody on Thanksgiving Day, that morning. I didn't talk to anybody. -That was my day off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with any other newspaper -reporters--that afternoon, but of course, that day--which you said you -wanted to enjoy as your day off, but you did go over to the shop that -afternoon and meet the television people, did you not? - -Mr. RYDER. Right, that's after the story broke over the radio. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And in the newspaper? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes; and in the newspaper, and then we got with the CBS boys -and made the little film that they wanted. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to any newspaper reporters at any -time the next day or the day after that about this whole story? - -Mr. RYDER. Well, they were all over the place the next day--on -Friday--Friday and Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you still take the position that you had nothing to -do with the original story that came out and you never talked to the -newspaper reporters prior to the time the story came out in The Dallas -Times Herald? - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where they got the story? - -Mr. RYDER. I still don't know--I kind of felt like where they got it -was over the radio--originally--I don't know. The CBS boys said that -they got it off of the Associated Press wires, is how they got it, or -over the AP. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it is not the ordinary practice, of course, for the -Commission to advise witnesses what kind of an investigation it has -made in connection with this thing, at least, not until the report -comes out, but I think you ought to know that as a result of the -existence of this gun ticket and the story that you told the FBI and -the Commission, the FBI has attempted to find every Oswald in the whole -Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surrounding area and it has found -many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved -out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any -work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever -did, and you should also know, and I think you probably do by now, that -Lee Oswald could not have had any scope mounted on the rifle that he -used to assassinate the President in your shop, and in fact, I don't -think you claim you did mount that particular scope? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right. We have claimed that it wasn't that one. On -the Monday after, well, it was the Monday of the funeral of President -Kennedy, that Mr. Horton came out and I thought at that time I had it -cleared with him that I hadn't mounted the scope on the gun he used to -assassinate the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That you had not? - -Mr. RYDER. That we had not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you weren't able to remember Lee Harvey Oswald's face -as being the face of the man who had previously been in that shop; -isn't that right? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't associate any specific gun or any -specific man with that particular work ticket; isn't that right? - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any possible suggestions as to where that -work ticket could have come from if it appears, and it certainly does -appear, that no other Oswald came in there and there is no evidence of -any sort to indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald ever had any other rifle -than the one he used to assassinate the President, and he never brought -that one in the sports shop? - -Mr. RYDER. All I know is that we had the ticket laying on the workbench -back there and I had written it up and completed the work on it and -the gun had been picked up. Now, as to whether it was Lee Oswald, I -couldn't positively identify him or if there was another one out there -right now I could not identify anybody if they said they did bring it -in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you wrote that gun -ticket sometime in the early part of November; is that right? - -Mr. RYDER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are certain that you wrote it up before November -22? - -Mr. RYDER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you are not able to associate that particular ticket -with any particular gun in your own mind? - -Mr. RYDER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I also recall that when I asked you questions about this -before, you indicated that possibly we could fix the date on which -this ticket had been written because you had written it with a pencil -and you said you remembered you had gone to Dallas on that particular -day, and that you used a pencil to get some materials from a wholesale -shop. Of course, the FBI, as you now know, has gone and has found out -every day that you ever went to Dallas to get gun materials and asked -you if you could identify the time and the date by reviewing this list -of materials that you got from the wholesale house in Dallas and you -weren't able to associate it with any particular day you used a pencil. - -Mr. RYDER. Right; he had 2 or 3 days there that he showed me some -copies--actually, he gave me some dates that I came to town and signed -and there were 2 or 3 days there in that period that I had signed with -a pencil, and it could have been that some of those days I had a pencil -laying handy and I just picked it up rather than taking my pen out of -my shirt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be surprised if the Commission concluded, after -this investigation that the FBI conducted and the questioning that we -have done, that there was never any man in there by the name of Oswald -with any gun at all? - -Mr. RYDER. Yeah--like I said--all I've got is that ticket with his name -on it and the work being done. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, at this point I think we might as well conclude the -deposition. The Commission will take under advisement Mr. Schmidt's -request to have a polygraph examination administered to him, and I -am advised by one of the U.S. attorneys here that one of the other -reporters over at the newspaper does remember the conversation and we -will take his deposition tomorrow. If you want to have a polygraph -examination administered to you, after reflecting on this, or if you -have anything further to say about the whole thing, contact Miss Stroud -here at the U.S. attorneys' office, if you want to. - -Mr. RYDER. Okay. Is that all? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's all. Thanks a lot, Mr. Ryder. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF HUNTER SCHMIDT, JR. - -The testimony of Hunter Schmidt, Jr., was taken at 4:20 p.m., on July -22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please sit down. My name is Wesley J. -Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission -investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been -authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to -authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November -29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the -Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney -present should you wish to have one. And you are entitled to 3 days' -notice of the hearing, should you wish to insist upon it. And you are -entitled to all privileges in terms of not answering questions that -you would have in any other proceeding. I assume that you are prepared -to proceed at this point without an attorney, since you don't have one -here? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't think that it would be necessary. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Hunter Schmidt, Jr. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. 1118 Osceola Trail, Carrollton, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. September 12, 1933. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Give us your educational background. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Tyler High School, Tyler Junior College; I have a B.A. -from Lamar Tech, and I am working on my masters at SMU. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what? In journalism? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No; in government. Two courses and a thesis away. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are presently employed by the -Dallas Times Herald, is that correct? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you work for them in the capacity of? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. County editor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. County editor. What do you do as county editor? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I cover, or well you might say my beat is everything in -Dallas County outside of the city of Dallas, and parts of Eastern -Tarrant County. That is roughly some surrounding towns, and I take -care of the general news coverage in that area. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the request of the President's Commission, the Federal -Bureau of Investigation conducted certain investigations into the facts -surrounding a story that appeared in the November 28, 1963, edition of -the Dallas Times Herald. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Thanksgiving Day; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The story related to the possibility that Lee Harvey -Oswald had had a telescopic sight mounted on a rifle at a sports shop -in Irving, Tex. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding from reviewing the FBI report, -that you were the reporter that wrote that story? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I gathered facts for the story and gave the facts to the -rewrite man who wrote the actual story, but they were from the facts -that I gathered. We were checking out several, running down all clues -and all possible reports at that time. Anything that might be a lead -to the story, we checked out. We checked out many many things of that -nature, and that was just one of the tips that I checked out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you first get information that Oswald had had a -scope mounted on his rifle at this Irving sport shop? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. We heard of it, I think it was around the police station -somewhere. I don't remember where that exact tip came from. We heard -that a gunsight had been mounted by a man named Ryder, and they thought -at first it was Garland. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean Garland, Tex.? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Garland, Tex.; that's right. Since that was my beat, well, -they gave me the tip to check it and I checked it in Garland and found -out that there wasn't any Ryder listed in the city directory and so -forth, so I did it by process of elimination and checked several towns, -and I found, well, I came to rest on Irving, because I found the Ryder -there listed as the sports shop man, and I just took it that that was -the gunsmith. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether Ryder, when you checked the city -directory, that Ryder was listed as being associated with a gunshop, or -did you just find the name Ryder and call him? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember exactly what I found in the city -directory then. It was a process of elimination, and apparently that -looked like the only one in Irving, so I checked that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there come a time when you called Mr. Ryder on -the telephone? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; this was Thanksgiving morning. In fact, that is the -same morning I got the tip. After the process of elimination, I called -Ryder and it was early that morning. I called out there, and a woman -answered the phone, and he apparently had gotten out of bed, from the -time it took. He sounded sleepy on the phone and so forth. So I talked -to him then on the phone and asked him about the information I got for -the story. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you talk to him on the phone about that? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, I am just guessing. I would estimate 15 minutes or -roughly thereabouts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. He told me--I asked if he had a customer--now this is a -tip we got, that this Ryder mounted a scope for a customer, and the -customer's name on the ticket with the gun was Oswald. And he confirmed -on the phone that morning. And the reason I took it as the truth was -because I didn't think a fellow would get out of bed early and make up -a story half asleep and fabricate a story that early in the morning, -and get out of bed on a holiday. He told me that he had a ticket with -the name Oswald on it, that it was a foreign-made rifle, that he did -put the scope, bored the holes and sighted it in. I asked him if he -bought any ammunition, and he said no; he didn't. I think he said he -didn't remember him buying any ammunition. He then gave me the prices -for the mounting of the scope, $1.50. I think he said he bored three -at $1.50 a sight, and $4.50 for the boresighting--I mean for the hole -drilling. And $1.50 for the sighting in of the rifle. And let's see, -after he gave me the prices and everything, I just took it as pretty -authoritative, because I didn't know that much about rifles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that Ryder told you that he believed that -the rifle was a foreign make; is that right? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; I asked him what kind it was. He said he didn't -remember for sure, but he said he believed it was a foreign-made rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ryder say anything about the fact that he was sleepy -and had not slept well the night before? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No, I don't believe he mentioned that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that? Did Ryder tell you what -boresighting was, or did you know about that? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I might have gotten that mixed up in the story. Some -of the people who know more about rifles than I do said that wasn't -exactly correct. The boresighting was explained in the story, but I did -the best I could with the information I had there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Ryder about the -significance of the term boresighting? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Not that I remember. This boresighting thing came -up--there is a fellow down there that knows something about rifles, -and I mentioned boresighting, and then there was a conversation with -the rewrite man that took the facts I had and added to the story. The -top of the story is the story I got from Ryder, and the other part of -the story were some other tips that had been run down and other parts -of the story we pieced together about the general investigation and so -forth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was Ryder's attitude when he talked to you on the -phone that morning? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was just a man giving information, as far as I -was concerned. He wasn't antagonistic or anything. It was just a matter -of facts, I would say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI about this? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Petrocas from Oklahoma; an FBI agent? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I am not sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling him that Ryder was cordial and -invited you to get in touch with him again? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; he did. I think he said get in touch with him again -if I wanted to, I am not too sure, but it was that type conversation. -He wasn't antagonistic. As a matter of fact, it was like you would get -a story from anybody. Nothing apparently controversial about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report that I have also indicates that the agent -says that you told him that Ryder did explain to you in detail the -significance of the term "boresighting." Do you recall telling the -agent that? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember for sure. That was back, I guess, in May. -I don't remember any detail about the boresighting, but I remember him -mentioning boresighting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI report indicates that on the evening of November -28, 1963, which was the same day that you had talked to Ryder, you saw -a taped television interview? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. A denial. He denied the story that he had given me that -morning. But the thing that, immediately after I saw that, I called -one of the fellows on the paper. I think it was Charlie Dameron or Ken -Smart or one of my immediate superiors, and told him I thought the -story had something behind it because they didn't mention the ticket, -they didn't mention about the name Oswald on it, in the denial, and -they didn't mention the cost of doing this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It did not? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. It did not, as best I remember, mention the cost of doing -that, and didn't mention the ticket. It just said he denied the report -that he put the sight on the rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, according to this report that I have, and it says, -"Schmidt advised that while at his address the evening of November 28, -1963, he observed a taped television interview on a 10 o'clock news of -CBS television, in which Ryder denied furnishing any of the information -to a Dallas Times Herald reporter as set forth in the article which -had appeared in the newspaper that day." - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Right. About that 10 o'clock, I was guessing that that -was the 10 o'clock news. I did see a television denial of that, and I -am just guessing that it was the 10 o'clock news. It was CBS, because -I know I remember it was. It had to be CBS because I believe, and I am -not sure about that 10 o'clock, because the best I can remember, it was -Walter Cronkite reading the denial, and if it was Walter Cronkite, it -couldn't have been the 10 o'clock news, because I don't think he was -on then. In any event, I did see the television denial of it, and I am -pretty sure it was CBS. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Ryder actually appeared on the television taped -program, at that time; did he? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I am trying to remember that. I just remember the -denial clearly on television. I wouldn't swear to Ryder being on the -television tape. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember for sure that Ryder denied furnishing any -information to a Dallas Times Herald reporter? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. In that interview he denied having done, having mounted -a scope on the rifle, and he denied the story in the Times Herald, is -what he was doing in essence. And he said he just didn't do it, is what -he said on that, or what the story on the television said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not he specifically denied -having told that story to a Dallas Times Herald reporter? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I don't remember if he specifically said that in -essence. I remember the denial being credited to Ryder. As best I can -recall now, the denial being credited to Ryder. - -He said he denied the story in the Times Herald, that he did thus and -so, that he mounted the scope. Now I am trying to remember back from -what I saw on that television, because now I understand he has denied -to his boss later on. - -His boss had talked to our people at the Herald. He denied to his boss -later on, and his boss talked to us and said that he denied to him -talking to anybody from the Times Herald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Greener (Ryder's boss) about this? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. On the phone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. He called. He was very cordial. He called in and he said -that--this is after he had talked to somebody else, as I understand it. - -Either he called in, or I called him. We got together on the phone, and -I told him that I talked to the man Thanksgiving morning and got those -facts from him. And he said that the guy denied the story, and that was -in essence what was said. I told him I didn't know why he denied it or -anything, unless he figured that it might not go over very well with -the public. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Greener know about this work that had supposedly been -done on Oswald's rifle, when you called him? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember discussing that, whether he knew about -the work or not. But I remember pointing out the fact that in the -denial that I heard on television, that the ticket and the cost and -all that wasn't mentioned. And as I have said, I didn't know that much -about rifles, and I told the man I couldn't make up that much about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Greener telling you that he was -completely unaware of any of the information that was set forth in the -article that appeared in the paper on November 28, 1963, until after -he had been contacted by a CBS television reporter that afternoon, and -that was the first time that he read it? That he, Greener, had learned -any of the facts about this whole thing? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe he said something to that in essence. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Greener why Ryder had denied talking to you -and giving you the information? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Did I ask Greener why Ryder denied it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; as I understand, the sequence went something like -this. You talked to Ryder on Thanksgiving morning, and he gave you all -the information and you wrote the story that came out in the paper. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that night you saw on television a program on which -Ryder in general denied ever talking to you, or denied the story that -was printed in the paper? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And I understand shortly after that time you called -Greener? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe it was the next day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said to Greener, what is going on. Did you ask him -why Ryder denied the story that he had previously given you? That is my -question now. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I could have very well. I do remember talking to Greener -and telling him that, I am sure, I got the story from Ryder that -Thanksgiving morning, and I told him the reasons I thought that it was -a factual story because, as I said before, about getting up early on a -holiday, and the ticket with the name Oswald on it, and the cost and -everything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did Greener ever tell you that Ryder had told him, -Greener, that he had never talked to a reporter from the Dallas Times -Herald? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe Greener said that Ryder said that he hadn't -talked to anybody, as best I can remember. I think he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Ryder at any other time except on -the morning of Thanksgiving, November 28, 1963? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I wouldn't know him if he walked in this room now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any other possible source of information for -this story? Did you talk to anybody in the Dallas Police Department -about it? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. About the mounting; no, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about the FBI? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I got all those facts from Ryder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You got those facts from Ryder? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir; nowhere else did I get any information. I -thought that was getting it from the horse's mouth. If I thought there -was anything phony about it, I would have told the city editor about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you given consideration to the reason for Ryder -denying having talked to you? He denied talking to you, he denied it to -the television reporter, and furthermore, he has denied it to me under -oath. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, he would have to deny it under oath, but like I say, -I wouldn't have any reason to fabricate the story. I didn't get any -extra compensation for it. I got paid the same thing if I hadn't gotten -the story, if it had been a complete hoax. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I think you got the information for the story -somewhere. I don't think there is any question about that. But isn't -it a possibility that you might have gotten the information from some -other place, a confidential source of information that you would rather -not disclose? Wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to say you got the -story from Ryder? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I had no reason to fabricate anything about Mr. -Ryder. I don't know the man. I have nothing against him. I just have a -story, and I will stick by that story we had in the paper. But the only -thing possible that I would be willing to retract any part would be -some details of how you do the boresighting. But I don't know that much -about rifles as to why he would deny it, except that he possibly could -have thought that wouldn't go over too well with the public, "Here I -mounted a sight on the gun that killed the President." Many people -would think--he never told me that this was the gun that Lee Harvey -Oswald used on the President. He said a customer with a ticket on it -that said Oswald, and I believe I asked him what Oswald looked like, -and I don't think he could put the face with the ticket, if I remember -correctly. - -I believe I asked him that, but I wouldn't have any reason to fabricate -anything. And the man I was looking for was the man who mounted the -scope. After I got that with these other bits of evidence behind it, or -evidence in my mind, probably circumstantial, but to me it seemed like -human nature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was enough evidence to justify writing a newspaper -article? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. I think so, and we try to be factual. I think we have -tried to be very factual and very honest on this thing. - -At this time you see we were getting things that were hoaxes that was -full of holes, and I wouldn't have any reason specifically to inflate -this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you are absolutely firm in your position that on -the morning of Thanksgiving you did call Ryder and you did talk to him -and did get from him the basic facts about the gun, ticket, and the -boresighting and the drilling of the hole? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Absolutely. Like I say about the boresighting. I got the -boresighting statement and details that I didn't know about. But I did -get the cost. I got the ticket with the name Oswald on it, that he -mentioned in the story, the statement about the ammunition. He didn't -buy any ammunition that he could remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me say this to you. We are faced with a situation -where Ryder has denied under oath the statement that you have just -affirmed under oath. It is perfectly clear that somebody is not telling -us the truth. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Obviously. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What I would like to do in order to try to determine -who is telling the truth about this question is have you come in here -tomorrow evening at about 7:30 or so when Mr. Ryder is going to be here -again to testify before the Commission. After I discuss this with Mr. -Ryder, by myself, for a while, I would like to bring you into the room -and I would like to have you and Mr. Ryder see if you can't iron out -this apparent inconsistency in the two stories. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. It is perfectly fine with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you are willing to do that? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At this point, we will suspend Mr. Schmidt's deposition -until such time as we resume tomorrow in the presence of Mr. Ryder. And -needless to say, of course, you will hold in complete confidence the -request that I have made of you now until after we have our meeting -with Mr. Ryder? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. That will be fine with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would be very unhappy if I found it in the newspaper -before Ryder gets here. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Is it free knowledge after that, though? - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is something that is entirely up to you, I suppose. -I don't know if the Commission would request you not to write a story -about it. I would like to talk to Washington, and even if we request -you not to write a story, that is all we can do. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, we have tried all the time to cooperate with people. -If there is anything other than that you want me to do, if you have a -polygraph test, I will be perfectly willing to submit to it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have I mentioned a polygraph test? - -Mr. SCHMIDT. No; but I would be perfectly willing to submit to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is something that we will take under advisement -after we see what happens with regard to Mr. Ryder tomorrow. - -Mr. SCHMIDT. Perfectly fine with me. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF CHARLES W. GREENER - -The testimony of Charles W. Greener was taken at 12:15 p.m., on April -1, 1964, at the Irving Sports Shop, 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, -Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to swear you as a witness and she will take -this all down. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear -that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. GREENER. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think that Mr. Sanders' office called you previously -and told you that we would be out here? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have advised you that I am an attorney on the staff -of the President's Commission. I want to ask you about some of the -background concerning the possibility that Lee Oswald or some other -Oswald had a rifle in the shop here and had some work done on it? - -Would you state your name? - -Mr. GREENER. Charles W. Greener. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you the owner and operator of the Irving Sports Shop -located at 221 East Irving Boulevard in Irving? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is Dial D. Ryder one of your employees? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known Ryder? - -Mr. GREENER. Approximately 6 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has he been employed by you here at the shop practically -all that time? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have a repair tag that has the number 18374 on it and -the name Oswald, indicating some repairs were to be made to a rifle. We -will mark this picture as Exhibit No. 1, on your deposition. I show you -a picture of this tag and ask you if that is a tag of the type that you -use here in this shop? - -Mr. GREENER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen that tag before? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the first time that you ever saw it? - -Mr. GREENER. Approximately a week or less after the assassination was -the first time I had seen it. That was on Thanksgiving Day, I guess, -because they called me at home and I was eating and I met some of the -news media to go through this Thanksgiving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had there been anything in the newspaper about this tag, -or about Oswald having any work done here before you saw the tag? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes; it had come out in the news, and this was Walter -Cronkite was to run a retraction on it, or at least clarify the thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of retraction? - -Mr. GREENER. Well, they tried to clarify the thing to say that we had -a tag showing a certain amount of work for an Oswald, but as far as -relating to that particular gun or that particular man, we had no real -knowledge of the thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out there at the shop before this thing -came out in the newspaper? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I don't think so. They came out after all the news -stories. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did the newspaper get hold of this, do you know? - -Mr. GREENER. I couldn't tell you that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty clear that it was in the press before the -FBI ever talked to you? - -Mr. GREENER. I am pretty sure it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether the FBI could have talked to Ryder -or anybody else at the shop? - -Mr. GREENER. That I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are the owner of the shop, are you not? - -Mr. GREENER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you here at the shop during the period after the -assassination and prior to the time that the FBI came here for the -first time? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If the FBI had come here to talk to anybody about Oswald -having been here, they would probably have talked to you, isn't that -right? - -Mr. GREENER. It is possible. Now I do know that one newsman came in and -he wasn't going to consult me in any way, so I don't know whether it -would have been the case with the FBI or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did the newsman come in? - -Mr. GREENER. That was on a--I believe that was on a Monday--following -Monday, as I remember it. - -No; wait a minute. No; it wasn't a Monday. That holiday, it's got me -mixed up. It must have been on a Friday after the Thanksgiving holiday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the story had already been out in the -newspaper, is that right? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This reporter came in and wanted to talk to Ryder? - -Mr. GREENER. Right. The paper stated the owner of the Irving Sports -Shop, and he apparently figured that was the correct information. - -Of course, all the newspapers, they didn't check out any stories; they -just run to their office and sent it in, as you well know. No one -checked out anything. Anything they could get hold of, they put in -print, and some of the information they got a hold, I don't know where -it came from. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that any reporter -talked to Ryder prior to the time the FBI came to your shop? - -Mr. GREENER. One told me he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that reporter's name? - -Mr. GREENER. No; he was with the Times Herald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas Times Herald? - -Mr. GREENER. I couldn't swear. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he talked to Ryder? - -Mr. GREENER. Ryder told me he hadn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder told you the reporter had not talked to him? - -Mr. GREENER. Had not talked to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter tell you when he had talked to Ryder? - -Mr. GREENER. He told me that he talked to him earlier in the morning. I -don't know when that was. I am inclined to believe, to the best of my -knowledge, it was Thanksgiving Day. Now I could be wrong on that. My -recollection is that this story first came out--I am thinking it came -out on Thanksgiving Day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a clipping from the New York Times of -November 29, 1963, which appears to be one of the first times that this -story was released in the New York papers at any rate, November 29, -1963. - -Mr. GREENER. What was Thanksgiving Day? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thanksgiving Day was on a Thursday, was it not? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 28, so that the 29th would -have been the day that it came out in the New York papers, and it very -likely could have come out in the Dallas paper on Thanksgiving Day. - -Mr. GREENER. I think it was Thanksgiving Day when it came out in the -paper, because I hadn't heard anything of it, and I remember we were -playing dominoes when the paper came, and we quit and read the paper, -and then also they had come by to check on this story, and we came up -to the shop and went through that for Walter Cronkite's program. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter had come out to check out the story? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the newspaper clipping that -I previously referred to is from the New York Times of November 29, -1963, and the story is entitled, "Gunsmith Attached Sight for Man Named -Oswald," and it is a story written by Mr. John Herbers, and it has been -marked as Exhibit No. 2, on Mr. Greener's deposition. - -Now do you have a feeling or do you have the thought based on what this -reporter from the Dallas News told you that the reporter had talked to -Ryder prior to the time that the FBI ever came here to the shop? - -Mr. GREENER. You are going to have to go through that again. I am not -sure that I was following you all the way. I was thinking a little bit -while you were talking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am trying to find out at what time this story first -broke, whether the FBI had been here at the shop to ask any questions -before the story came out in the newspapers? - -Mr. GREENER. As I recall, no. None of the law enforcing agencies had -been by previous to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression is that he came here because they saw the -story in the paper? - -Mr. GREENER. That is my idea. Either that, or they were informed by the -news reporters. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did this reporter from the Dallas paper, whose name -you don't remember, tell you that Ryder had called him? - -Mr. GREENER. No; he told me that he called him, called Ryder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got the idea to call Ryder? - -Mr. GREENER. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't ask him? - -Mr. GREENER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with Ryder? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes; I did. And he said he had not talked to a newspaper -reporter about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At all? - -Mr. GREENER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you never had any opportunity or occasion to ask Ryder -whether a reporter or, or whether Ryder contacted a reporter, because -he simply denied talking to a reporter? - -Mr. GREENER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you asked Ryder about this? - -Mr. GREENER. Must have been on Friday, because I was a little bit -aggravated at the whole setup. They got me out of bed a time or two -at night, and I believe that I had called the Times Herald to talk to -this reporter to see where he was supposed to have been getting his -information. I'm sure that after I talked to them that day was when I -questioned Ryder. So I feel pretty sure it was Friday or Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The 29th or 30th of November? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ryder ever indicate to you that he had talked to a -newspaper reporter about this? - -Mr. GREENER. No; he did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection at all of the name of this -reporter from the Dallas newspaper? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I don't have the slightest idea about talking with -reporters until this bunch that was going to run the program on Walter -Cronkite's program had contacted me, and he called me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I don't remember any of the boys with the television -program at all. They had called me and wanted to come down and take -some pictures, and he called me, Ryder did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The television men had called Ryder? - -Mr. GREENER. That was after the newspaper article had appeared in the -newspapers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Ryder called you and talked to you about it, whether -these men could come down? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes; and I came down and met with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Ryder told them? - -Mr. GREENER. To the best of my knowledge, he told them that we had the -ticket, but he didn't remember the name, didn't remember the gun, or -the person, because actually here is the thing about this tag here. -We have tried to keep a little better record. We get busy, you know, -and get a little lax, just like you and everybody else does, and if -we got two or three waiting, why, at that time we were not going to -dally about what the name is or date or address or telephone number or -anything. We felt like we didn't have time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was just before the deer season? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes; I guess the deer season opened November 16 in Texas, -and our workload was pretty heavy, and we were working short handed, -too, which would be one reason for no more information on the tag or -several other tags. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date? - -Mr. GREENER. No; no way in the world. In the first place, I wasn't -here. I feel sure I wasn't here at the time this went on. I was gone -from--I don't remember what day I left. I started hunting in South -Dakota on November 2, and we came back somewhere between the 12th and -14th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you feel that you weren't here at the time -this tag was made up? - -Mr. GREENER. Well, in checking around, I feel like possibly that I -would have noticed it on the gunrack. I would--I don't know whether I -would or not, because I do some of the repair work myself, and a lot of -times I go through the guns on the rack to be repaired, and if it is -something I can do, I take care of it. If he is busy, then I take care -of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder, you mean? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of this tag? - -Mr. GREENER. None whatsoever, until, I believe, it was the day on -Thanksgiving when they came down here. Now, I believe--this has been -a long time and we are going into phases of this I hadn't thought of -in a long time--it seems to me that the FBI got ahold of him and they -come down scouring through the place. That was very possible after the -newspaper report broke. It could have been before, but it seems to me -that that is when the tag appeared. I believe it was an FBI man who was -out here checking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, if that is true, then the tag would have had -to have been found and the FBI man would have had to have been here -before the story broke in the newspaper? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I said it could possibly be after the newspaper story -appeared, but I believe when the tag was found lying on the desk -somewhere, that the FBI man was here when it was found. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the best recollection that you have? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes; right now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who found the tag; do you remember? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I don't know. If I remember correctly, and I could -be wrong, because like I said, you are going into things that hadn't -entered my mind since November 22, along in there, and it seems to me -that he had contacted Ryder and they had come down here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes, and they found the tag on the workbench somewhere. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression now is that the FBI man was here when the -tag was found? - -Mr. GREENER. That is my impression; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As we discussed briefly off the record before we started, -it appears that there are three possibilities concerning this tag. -One, in view of the fact that Mr. Ryder is quite clear in his own mind -that he never worked on an Italian rifle similar to the one that was -found in the Texas School Book Depository, we can conclude either that -the Oswald on the tag was Lee Oswald and he brought a different rifle -in here, or it was a different Oswald who brought another rifle in -here, or that the tag is not a genuine tag, and that there never was a -man who came in here with any gun at all. Can you think of any other -possibilities? - -Mr. GREENER. That about covers the situation, it looks to me like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any opinion as to what the real situation is? - -Mr. GREENER. Nothing more than I have confidence in the boy, or I -wouldn't have him working for me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he would make this tag up to cause a lot -of commotion? - -Mr. GREENER. I don't think so. He doesn't seem like that type boy. I -have lots of confidence in him or I wouldn't have him working for me -and handling money. Especially times I am going off. He--if he wasn't -the right kind of boy, and he pretty well proved he is by dependability -and in all the relations that we have together, and I just don't figure -that is possible. Now I say I don't figure that. Of course, there is -always possibilities of everything, but I don't feel that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't feel Ryder would do that? - -Mr. GREENER. Not at all; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When we look at this tag, it appears in the photograph -that it is in two parts. There is a top part entitled "Repair Tag," -on which writing appears, reading "Oswald, drill and tap, $4.50. -Boresight, $1.50." Or a total of $6. And it appears at the lower part -of the tag; it is in the form of a claim check; isn't that correct? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The tag number, as I have indicated, is 18374. Would I be -correct in assuming that if this tag had been made up when a customer -came in and left their rifle, that the part of the tag entitled "Claim -Check" would ordinarily have been torn off and given to the customer? - -Mr. GREENER. No; you are wrong in assuming that. Because I believe -19 out of 20 would not ask for a claim check. In the first place, 18 -out of that 20 would lose the claim check before they got back, so if -you are going to give them a claim check and stick to the thing, not -letting them have the merchandise if they don't have the claim check---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are running into a lot of trouble from a business -point of view? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes; when they come back for the merchandise, I ask them -what the name is, and if we have a gun to go by the name---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily tear off the claim check? - -Mr. GREENER. No. If you look at the rack, you won't find one on the -whole rack that has a claim check that has been torn off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There isn't any way you can tell from the number when the -check was issued? - -Mr. GREENER. No, because we got the tags dumped into a box, and we -reach in and get a tag and tie it onto the merchandise and fill it out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures that have previously -been marked in another part of these proceedings as Commission Exhibits -Nos. 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456, and ask you if you recall ever seeing -the person or persons depicted in these pictures? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I don't believe I could identify him as ever having -any dealings. Now there is a familiarity there, but I couldn't tie it -with anything or anybody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't figure out in your mind why you think there -is a familiarity to those pictures? - -Mr. GREENER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen those pictures before? - -Mr. GREENER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI or Dallas Police Department ever shown you -pictures and asked you to identify them? - -Mr. GREENER. No; they haven't shown me pictures of anyone for -identification. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you another picture which is a photograph -that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, a photograph of an -individual on a street, and one of them has been indicated by a green -mark on the picture, and ask you to examine that picture and tell me if -you have ever seen that man before? - -Mr. GREENER. Not that I can recall now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph of a street scene which has -been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you recognize any -of the people in that photograph? Two of them have been marked with a -green marker, but don't confine your attention entirely to those two -individuals. Tell me if you recognize any of the people in that picture? - -Mr. GREENER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly I call your attention to the man who was -standing immediately to the left of the man who is marked with the "X," -rather than the line, not immediately, to the left of him, then, but -the second man to the left. He is standing there with a tie and he has -some papers in his hand. Does he look familiar to you at all? - -Mr. GREENER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture that has been marked Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-C, and ask you if you can recall ever having seen that -man? - -Mr. GREENER. I don't recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that man in the picture? - -Mr. GREENER. According to the other pictures in the paper, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who does it look like to you? - -Mr. GREENER. It looks like Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't ever remember having seen him? - -Mr. GREENER. No; my mental pictures are not hardly as good as it used -to be. You take fooling with people day in and day out, without some -reason to recognize them, the next time you see them--there is a reason -for it, you don't make a mental picture of every person that comes in. -If he was 6'6" and weighed 300 pounds, or gave you some trouble when he -comes for his merchandise, then it is likely you would remember, but -a guy just comes in and tells you what he wants done, and comes back, -and gets his merchandise and doesn't give you any trouble, then you -don't remember. Usually I never forget a face. Now, the first picture -you showed me, there was something there, but I couldn't pin it to -anything, though. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am marking two photographs of a rifle as Exhibits -Nos. 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener. I have initialed both -photographs for the purpose of identification, and I would like to have -you initial them, too, so we don't get confused as to which picture we -are looking at. - -Mr. GREENER. Both of them? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Both of them, please. These are pictures of a rifle. I -would like to have you examine it and tell me whether you have ever -seen that rifle or one similar to it. - -Mr. GREENER. No; I don't remember this rifle at all. The first Italian -rifle that I remember seeing was in Worland, Wyo. A friend pulled his -out, and that is the first Italian rifle that I ever recall having seen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subsequent to the assassination? - -Mr. GREENER. That was while we were on the trip. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having seen a rifle like this in the -shop here? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I sure don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have taken the first two exhibits and marked them -Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, on your deposition, and I have initialed both of -them and I would like to have you initial them also for the purpose of -identification. - -Mr. GREENER. [Initials.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made any attempt on your own part to try to -figure out how this tag came to be in your shop? - -Mr. GREENER. No; really I haven't inquired any at all on that. I -inquired about the reporter deal, but I didn't inquire into anything -at all about the tag, because I just assumed it was all open and above -board and didn't go into it at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now we have talked previously about the three -possibilities that could possibly explain this tag, and you have told -us that you don't think that Ryder is the kind of guy who would write -the tag up after the fact just to cause a commotion. - -There are two other possibilities. One, was that Lee Oswald had a -different rifle in here. And the other is that there is a different -Oswald involved. Do you have any opinion as to which of those -possibilities might be correct? - -Mr. GREENER. No; it would just be a---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Wild speculation? - -Mr. GREENER. Very wild. Very wild speculation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you told me before that you had been interviewed -several times by the FBI and by the Dallas police force. Can you think -of any questions that they asked you or things they discussed with you -that we haven't covered here? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I can't. It seems that we have gone into it far deeper -than they ever did, the Dallas police or the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that I should have asked -you or that you can add that would help clear this situation up? - -Mr. GREENER. No; sure can't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions at this point, Mr. Greener. -If you can't think of anything else that you think is appropriate to -add to the record, I think we will terminate the deposition at this -point. I want to thank you very much for the time you have given and -the cooperation you have shown. I know you have been talked to about -this a lot of times. I appreciate the cooperation you have shown the -Commission, and I thank you very much. - -Mr. GREENER. We have tried to cooperate with them all the way through. -When they continued to come back and ask the same questions and get me -out of bed and all at 11 or 12 o'clock at night and get a tag they had -looked at three or four times, I began to get a little bit aggravated. - -Mr. Ryder and I have always been interested in helping them in any way -we could with any information we could give. I don't feel that he is -the type boy to do that. Of course, that again is people are involved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you have known the boy a long time and you should -be in a position to make that kind of judgment? - -Mr. GREENER. That is what he is. He has been a mighty fine boy and he -is just an extraordinary boy. There is not many like him, and I would -trust him with anything that I have to be done, and it just never -struck me as him being that kind of boy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you a couple of other questions about rifles -and sights. I know you do have a meeting at 12:30. - -Mr. GREENER. No; it was 12. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I thought it was 12:30. I am sorry you are not going -to make the meeting. You may have read in the newspapers that Oswald -purchased this Italian rifle, or was supposed to have purchased it from -a mail-order house in Chicago, with the telescopic sight mounted on the -rifle at that time? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In your opinion, based on your experience in this field, -do you think that a rifle that had been purchased from a mail-order -house that is shipped through the mails with a scope mounted on it -would be in a condition to fire accurately at that point without any -further sighting in of the rifle by firing it? - -Mr. GREENER. The possibility of it being, especially with this -frail mount is, I am sure that that mount, according to what little -information I have, the possibility of it being real accurate would be -pretty small, I think. - -I think the gun would be--I think even a fellow that was going to go -deer hunting would want to take the gun out and shoot it before he went -hunting, and I think that holds very true with this case, regardless of -whether we mounted the scope or who mounted it or it come mounted. I -think the man would fire it before using it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You feel that because you don't think that a rifle would -be able to be fired accurately unless it had been sighted? - -Mr. GREENER. The possibility would be small that it would be real -accurate; and you talk to most any of the fellows that go hunting, -regardless of how expensive a mount they may have on the gun, he is -going to take it and fire it before he goes hunting. That holds true in -99 percent of the cases. - -The only reason not to would be the fact the man was in a real big -hurry, he picked it up late in the afternoon and he was going to -Colorado and was getting there after the season and he was going to -shoot and just take his chances. Otherwise, he would take the gun out -and fire it, 99 out of 100, and fire it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be true even if it had been boresighted? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes; because actually the boresighting with the tools that -we use, the accuracy of the thing on the windage part of it is very -accurate, but as far as distance, different guns will travel a flatter -trajectory than other guns will, and there is no calibration on the -sighting tools that tell us that you can sight the gun in on target, -that it is on 60 or 140 or 270 or 308. There is no calibration for that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No calibration for the boresighting machine? - -Mr. GREENER. No; you have the crosshairs and you line the two of them -up, and that is approximately 100 or 125 yards range, but different -guns will vary as to the trajectory, and one might hit the target and -one be a little high and another a little low, so that is the reason -the man takes his gun and shoots it in as far as the elevation is -concerned. He can zero it in to what distance he wants to shoot it at. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have to be done, as you have indicated, even -if the rifle had been boresighted? - -Mr. GREENER. That's right. It would be accurate as far as elevation. -The windage part is usually right on target, but the elevation has to -do with caliber. - -As far as your 6.5 Italian gun is concerned, there is only two types. -One is the hand load, and one is the military ammunition. Because there -is none of the major ammunition manufacturers that builds a sporting -load for that gun, so it either has to be a hand load or old Italian or -military ammunition, and the hand load has to do with what size bullet -and the power you get, and it would be more important on that gun to -shoot it than it would any other caliber or of an American make that -you get your larger manufacturers of ammunition loading for. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any 6.5 ammunition in your shop? - -Mr. GREENER. Not 6.5 Italian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had? - -Mr. GREENER. We have a 6.5 Swedish and 6.5 Jap, and I believe that is -all of these 6.5's. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you do reloading of casings? - -Mr. GREENER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow has to do that himself? - -Mr. GREENER. We sell the components and the loading equipment but we -don't do any loading. The only one that I have been able to find out so -far that hand loads 6.5 Italian--I don't think this is a possibility, -but Ray Acker with Bell Telephone is the only one I know that does any -hand loading on 6.5 Italians. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He works for Bell Telephone Co.? - -Mr. GREENER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He does this as a part-time occupation? - -Mr. GREENER. Hobby; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to him about this case at all? - -Mr. GREENER. No; I don't guess I have ever called him. How I came to -know that he reloads, and I don't know to what extent that he reloads, -but I called one of my suppliers as to the availability of 6.5 Italian, -and he gave me his name, so that is the reason but I can't say, but as -far as I know, he is the only one that loads 6.5. There may be others -that buy their own dies and hand loading, more especially since there -are more guns coming out, but that would be, oh, a year and a half ago -when I was told that he hand loaded 6.5 Italians. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you need a particular kind of equipment to reload -shells? - -Mr. GREENER. Very definitely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does the equipment vary with the caliber of the shell? - -Mr. GREENER. Very definitely. The presses usually will accept all the -different calibers, and then you have to have your die sets. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To pour it? - -Mr. GREENER. You've got to have your shell holders, and your die holder -that resizes the brass and inserts the bullet into it, the bullet -seating and there is only one caliber that one set of dies will load. -If you load a 6.5 die, you have to have 6.5 dies. If you load .30-06, -you have to have .30-06, and you can't have any part of the two on the -different calibers of ammunition. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, thank you again, and we appreciate your cooperation. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF GERTRUDE HUNTER - -The testimony of Gertrude Hunter, was taken at 5:50 p.m., on July 22, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, would you stand please and take the oath. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the -staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President -Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the -Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. -11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. -137. - -Pursuant to the rules governing the taking of testimony by the -Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney here if you wish -and you are entitled to 3-days' notice of the hearing. You are not -required to answer at this time any questions that you think might be -incriminating or involve some other privilege, of course. Most of the -witnesses don't have an attorney and I see you don't have one here so -I assume you want to proceed with the questioning without an attorney -being present, is that correct? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record, please? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mrs. Hunter? - -Mrs. HUNTER. 141 South Hastings, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in Irving? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I think it was 2 years the 14th of July--right at--between -the 8th and 14th--I don't know the exact dates, but it was 2 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married, Mrs. Hunter? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Four girls. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are they? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Twenty-five, twenty-one, nineteen, and sixteen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Jacksonville, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have lived most of your life in Texas? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, yes; all my life. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mrs. Edith Whitworth? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known her? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, ever since I came to Irving. We are football fans -together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You came to Irving about 2 years ago? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; in July. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from information that has been provided to us -by the FBI that you were in a store operated by Mrs. Whitworth sometime -in 1963--that was formerly operated by Mrs. Whitworth--at which time -people who you now believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife and -children came into the store, is that correct? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us all the circumstances surrounding that -event as best you can remember them? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it was after 2 o'clock and I had went down to talk -to her--we were planning on a football trip and we were just sitting -there in the store talking, discussing football games, and who was -going with who and all, and this man drove up out in front of the store -and he got out and he come in and he asked for a gunsmith. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the car drive up? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see who was driving it? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this man driving it? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many people were in the car? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Just him and a woman and two children. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Nobody else? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No one else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I'm positive, because I was sitting right there--I was -sitting this way and the door was right here [indicating], and he drove -cater-cornered up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And there are glass windows in the front of the store so -that you could see right out into the street? - -Mrs. HUNTER. It is a solid glass there and the door was standing open -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know about what kind of car it was? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the reason I'm definite about the car--a friend of -mine in Houston--I was looking for them up and they had a car just -like this and I had left a note on my mailbox that I would be at this -place--telling them if anyone come I would be at this place and when -they drove up I thought that was them and it was a two-tone blue Ford. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What year? - -Mrs. HUNTER. 1957 or 1958--I won't be positive about that, but I would -rather say it was about a 1957, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From which direction did this car drive up? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, where the car come from--I don't know whether -it come up Jefferson or down Irving Boulevard, but I know that it did -park into the front of the store where I was sitting, you know, I was -talking and I wasn't paying any attention to which way the car came -from. The only thing I seen is the driver, when he drove up, and I seen -the color of the car, I started to get up because I thought it was -my friends from Houston, and I looked and seen that it wasn't and he -just got out and come in. She didn't get out at that time. He come in -and asked for the gunsmith, and to the best of my knowledge, I'm not -positive, but it seems to me like, because I was thinking that so many -different times that they would come in--whether he had something in -his hand or whether he didn't, but I know he went back to the car, and -if he did, he put it in the car and when he come back in, she got out -and followed him in, but he didn't help her out of the car, he didn't -help her with the kids or nothing. She just followed him in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is the furniture store that Mrs. Whitworth operated at -that time at the intersection of Jefferson Street and Irving Boulevard, -is that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; you come right in to Jefferson and Irving Boulevard. -It used to be the bus station--the Continental Bus Station. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And they had diagonal parking on that street? Is that the -way you parked? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you see, it was where the buses used to park clean -off the street to get out of the way of the traffic, you see, and you -just come up with the nose right up and you would be out of the traffic. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Out of the main street? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Just like this here was the store [indicating], well, it -was over this way and he just kind of cater-cornered up this way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, he parked his car diagonally in front of the store -and got out and came in? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after he went back out and they came back -into the store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he just come in and she was over when her desk was -there and he asked her about some furniture or something and they -walked and went back to the back and this woman, she followed them and -this young baby and the new baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This man asked Mrs. Whitworth about some furniture? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Mrs. Whitworth and this man walked toward the back of -the store and the woman and the children followed them; is that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but she wasn't--now, listen, she didn't pay any -attention and this lady had had a new grandbaby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean Mrs. Whitworth? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Whitworth's daughter and she says, "Let me trade you -a boy for this girl and we will both have a boy and girl." Well, they -didn't offer to show the baby or nothing and she didn't say anything. -We thought it was very funny and we discussed it after she walked -out--about her not being interested in showing her new baby, and, of -course, I didn't say anything to them, only I did see the little girl -and so forth. I didn't put my hands on her or nothing and I didn't pay -any attention to what they were saying at the back. All I know is that -they were looking at some furniture there, back there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man Oswald say anything about how old the little -baby was? - -Mrs. HUNTER. He said something to her but he was back far enough -that what he said to her--I don't know--it was about 2 weeks old or -something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mrs. Whitworth you are talking about now, or -Oswald? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oswald; and she asked Oswald something about the babies -and I don't remember just what he said to her, but it was something -about the baby, you know, and he didn't seem too enthused about that -either. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear Oswald say anything to Mrs. Whitworth -about how old the baby was? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I won't be positive--it's been so long--just what he -answered her, but just not looking for nothing--I didn't say too much -about it, but we just thought it was a coincidence about him not being -interested in us seeing the new baby. I think he did tell her when it -was born; I'm not positive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix for us the date on which this occurred? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; not right offhand. All I know is that it was -before the football game--I believe the Richland Hills football game -and it was on a Wednesday or a Thursday--I won't say positive which one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How can you say it was on a Wednesday or Thursday? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I never did go down to the store only on Wednesdays -or Thursdays afternoons---only the days that we had charters, and I -went down on Friday afternoon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the days you had charters; what do you mean by that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Charter buses to go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To go to the football game? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a charter bus to go to the football game at -Richland Hills? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; we went in cars that night and that night I would -always wait until my daughter calls at 2 o'clock. When she would call, -then I would go down to the store and that's the reason I definitely -know it was after 2 o'clock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which daughter is this that you are talking about? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Glenda. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what is her last name? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Hunter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old is she? - -Mrs. HUNTER. She's 19. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And does she live with you at home? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How does it come that she calls you at 2 o'clock? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her lunch break--she gets her lunch break from 1 -until 2 and she would always call me just a minute or two before she -goes back to work--just a few seconds--every day before she goes to -work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does she work here in Dallas? - -Mrs. HUNTER. At Commercial Title. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She always calls you at about 2 o'clock; is that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Between--she has to be back at her desk at 2. She will -call me anywhere, you know, when it's handy--if she comes up in town -to eat, it may be about 10 minutes until 2. If she takes her lunch and -eats there, it may be 15 minutes to 2, but I would always wait--I would -give her a chance to call me before I would leave and I never would -leave before 2 o'clock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How late in the afternoon could it have been, you think, -that these people did come? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I would say between 2:30 and 3:30, because I never -did stay gone past 4 o'clock. My daughter comes in from school and she -didn't have any way to get in the house. I locked the house and she -would get to the house before 4 and I would try to be back at the house -before 4 and there was just one or two evenings that I didn't get to -the house before she come in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say you would always try to get back home by 4 -o'clock? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; so I could unlock the door. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear the conversation between Mrs. Whitworth and -this man who came in about the gun? - -Mrs. HUNTER. He just asked for the gunsmith and she told him the -gunsmith had moved down the street and she went out in front and -pointed down to where to go and told him where to go and showed him -where it was at. I didn't go out the door. I was just sitting in a -platform rocker and he thanked her and he just went back to the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And after he went back to the car, then, they all came -back again and went in the store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. He came back in and then her and the children got out and -followed him in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Whitworth told him where the -gunshop that used to be in the furniture store had moved or did she -direct him to another gunshop? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; she told him that this man had gone and she thought he -was down in those sport shops or some kind of a shop down the street, -or that there was one down there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with where it is? - -Mrs. HUNTER. She was over at the front and I was back here, but I heard -the conversation, you know, what he was asking for and all that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he had anything in his hands when -he came in? - -Mrs. HUNTER. It seems to me like--I'm not positive--that he had -something and it come to me that it was wrapped in brown paper. Now, -I'm not positive about that, but it was just something like you -handle--he didn't have it up in his arms--he just had it in his hands. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how long the package was, or do you -remember that clearly? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I just remember there was something in his hands. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where the Irving Sport Shop is located? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I sure don't--I have never been there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Woodrow Greener? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Dial Ryder? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I don't know too many people, I guess, you would call -me selfish, but I don't know too many people in Irving--period. There -are just a very few that I know--just the grocery store where we trade -and the man that runs the bus station and Mrs. Whitworth and one or two -I met going to the football games--I have been there 2 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else in the store during the time these -people were there? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; just me and her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald say anything while she was in the store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I never did hear her open her mouth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did the little girl, the 2-year-old, behave? Was she -well behaved? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; she just went along holding her her mother's -dresstail. He didn't help her with either one of the babies and she was -walking along. You know, she is kind of shy and it was in a strange -place and she was kind of holding to her mother's coattail when they -were up there where I was at--where the table went around and I don't -know--I just--they was kind of dressed bummy or something--I don't know -what you would call it. She was kind of clean. He looked pretty nice. -I just thought--why was she dressed like that--you know how you will -notice that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear the little girl say anything at all to her -mother or her father? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't hear her say anything. Now, when they went -down the aisle, nearly to where Mrs. Whitworth and this man was, she -looked down at her and said something, but I didn't understand what she -said. She kind of whispered it to her. Now, I don't know what she said -or--she said shhh--or something like that to her--I didn't understand, -but she did look down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The mother did look down to the little girl? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were these people in the store altogether--the -family in the store altogether? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, I don't know--I would be scared to say about that, -because, not expecting anything--they come and went so much in there--I -didn't pay no attention to about how long they was in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you along with them when they were looking at the -furniture? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I was sitting in the platform rocker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But the woman went back and looked at furniture with her -husband? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; she didn't--that's what I say--she just walked along -there and she didn't pay that furniture any mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any feeling that there was any argument -going on between them or hostility between them or anything like that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I just think to myself--what is he looking at -that for, she isn't interested. That's just the opinion that I got. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he seemed to be much more interested in the -furniture than she did? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that these people were in the -store there for the period of time that they were and there was not a -single word exchanged between this man and woman? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't think nothing about that. I don't know--I -don't pay too much attention to anything like that, because while they -were back there, I got up and got out of my chair before they went back -to the car and walked to the door, and was standing looking out the -door up toward the bus that comes in for people to get off of, and I -didn't pay them any more mind until they went out to get in the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, they went out and got in the car and what happened -then? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when they got in the car--he said something to her, -but I couldn't hear that because I was standing in the door and he -turned like he was going to go back down that way and I said, "Don't -go that way, it's a one-way street, you'll have to go through the red -light and turn left." And he looked at me and he didn't say thank -you or nothing and he just backed out and went on down and I watched -him--he turned at the red light--turned down Main Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He drove east down Irving Boulevard; is that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. He was going down toward Plymouth Park, I believe it was -west--it's a one-way street and you have to go out and come down south. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which way does Irving Boulevard run--it runs east and -west, doesn't it? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I would say that it did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it's a one-way street, and it's a one-way street -running toward the west; is it not? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, that he got into the car---- - -Mrs. HUNTER. He got in the car and backed out here and he acted like -he was going to turn this way and I said, "Uh-uh, don't go back that -way, that's a one-way street and you will have to go down here to the -red light and turn to the left," and he went down and turned down Main -Street to the left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He went down the street against the traffic, going the -wrong direction? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; he went down with the traffic, down toward Plymouth -Park. I would say he drove west with the one-way traffic. He was going -to go back opposite, and he went on down to the red light on Main -Street and turned to the left. Now, where he went to from there, I -don't know. I didn't pay him any mind because I was standing there -watching some women coming down the street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say he was going to go back there--you mean in -the direction of Dallas, don't you? - -Mrs. HUNTER. That's what I would figure, because he would have to turn, -unless he thought he was going to turn and go back down Jefferson, if -he come in Jefferson, but I don't know that he come in Jefferson. He -couldn't have done that--he would have gotten a ticket for that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's see if we can establish it between ourselves -here, first, for this discussion, which way Irving Boulevard runs. When -you come toward Irving from Dallas, it runs--Irving Boulevard runs in -the direction away from Dallas, doesn't it, toward the west? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the man got in the car and he drove west in the -direction of the traffic down Irving Boulevard? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And turned at the red light on Main Street? - -Mrs. HUNTER. He turned left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He turned left at the intersection of Main and Irving -Boulevard? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that's the last you saw of the car? - -Mrs. HUNTER. That's the last I seen of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man seem to have any difficulty driving the car -as far as you could tell? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; not that I could tell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have discussed this whole question, I am sure, with -Mrs. Whitworth from time to time since it happened, haven't you? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, not too much. When they come on television and we -noticed who it was--I don't know--let me see if I can remember the -first time I seen him on television--I wasn't watching it when the -President got killed and I didn't know anything about it until way -after it happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first get the idea that those people that -had been in the store were the Oswalds? - -Mrs. HUNTER. When I seen them on television, and I just says to -whatever was sitting there, I said, "That man was down in the furniture -store the other day." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was it in the room? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it was just one of the kids I don't know--I forgot -now which one of them it was, but we were sitting in the house and I -said, "That man on television was down at the furniture store the other -day," and it was after he got killed that they showed her, I believe, -and I recognized her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize these people as soon as you saw them -and prior to the time you discussed it with Mrs. Whitworth? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know just how soon--I couldn't be -positive just how quick now--I done forgot--that I talked to her after -that, but it was after I seen him on television that we discussed it a -little bit and all, because after they fixed her up, she was pretty and -we did discuss that--the difference she looks now and her down there in -the store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean she does--you think she does look different now? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, yes; she's pretty now. She looked awful down there in -that store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you would recognize her as the same person -if you saw her again? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I doubt it--very seriously. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think you would recognize her? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I sure don't, not from the way she looked in that -store that day and the way she looks now. Now, that's how much -difference there was and I generally notice anyone by their eyes -quicker than anything else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you notice that she looked different? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oh--it was---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that when you saw her on television after the -assassination? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; the first time I seen her, she looked just common, -just like she did down there at the store that day, and I guess it was -when they fixed her up--it must have been after the funeral and she -was meeting with these people or something, because it was quite a -discussion about how pretty she was and why she let herself go before, -because we had discussed it that maybe he didn't want her to fix up or -something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long was it after the assassination that you noticed -this difference between Marina Oswald as she appeared on television and -in the paper? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, you may think I'm funny, but I didn't pay no -attention at all to that television--my television wasn't on when he -got killed or the parade or nothing. I was sitting at the table and -after it happened, I wouldn't watch the television--I didn't watch none -of the burial procedures or anything--any of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But at some point you noticed that Marina Oswald looked -different than she had the day she was in the store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My question is, when did you first notice that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it was undoubtedly quite a few days or several days -after Oswald--after Jack Ruby killed Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As much as a week after that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well--it was just after that--I wouldn't say just definite -what time it was, because, you don't notice anything like that. -Naturally, it's going to pop in your mind when you do notice something -like that, but just as soon as I seen her fixed up on TV, I just -noticed it was quite a difference of how she looked then and before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think it was within a week after the time Ruby shot -Oswald, is that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I wouldn't say--not now, it has been too long ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you now do have some doubt in your mind after having -seen her as to whether you would even recognize her as the same person -that was in the store, is that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, with the way her features looked on television now -and the way I seen her in the store--yes; because she dresses nice and -she's real cute. She dresses cute and she was sloppy in the store that -day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Her face hasn't changed any, has it, she has the same -face. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, her hair makes a difference now. I might recognize -her--I wouldn't say I wouldn't or I would, but I don't know--I've made -the remark two or three times that she doesn't look like she did the -day I seen her in the store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you still don't have any doubt in your mind that it -actually was she that was in the store the day you saw her? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I will say this, that the one I seen in the store -and the first time I seen her on television the first time was the same -woman--let's put it that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that Oswald actually turned -down Irving Boulevard and went against the traffic when he came out of -the store and went against the traffic? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, no; I didn't tell them that he went east. I told -them he started to turn east and I told him he was going the wrong -direction and he would have to turn back. Now, that woman from England -that came here-- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there that day she came? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; she come to my house that night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told her about that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just the same thing--about the same thing I have -told you, because that's about all I know. I might have remembered -a few different little points then that have slipped my mind now, -but that's just like what I told you, I guess a few little ends and -odds have slipped, but that's just about all I know, because I wasn't -expecting that and I wasn't looking for nothing like that and I just -didn't think too much about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Whitworth see these people get in the car and -drive away, do you know? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I don't know, because she was on that side where they come -out and I was on this--at a door standing in the door. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were closer to the door than Mrs. Whitworth? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I was closer to the car than she was. She was back -down here where they generally went into the store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She was further away from the front door where the car -was parked than you were? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Now, I don't know whether she was in the door or not. I -have never discussed it with her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have never told Mrs. Whitworth that this man got -in the car and drove the wrong way down the street? - -Mrs. HUNTER. The only thing that--I says, "He started to go back down -Irving Boulevard." I did say that to her one day because it was a -one-way street and he was going the wrong way then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think if we have Mrs. Oswald come in here next -Friday morning and you come in and look at her and the children too, do -you think you would be able to come here and tell us if they were the -people that were in that store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say--I just wouldn't say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we have asked Mrs. Whitworth to come in--to come -back Friday morning at 9 o'clock and we will have Mrs. Oswald and the -babies come in and we would like for you to come back to see if they -were the people in the store. Would you be willing to do that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I will be willing to do it, but now, it's like I -say--I wouldn't say I would recognize her now because she is pretty now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she would recognize you, do you think she -would remember being in the store if she had really been in there? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I wouldn't know that--that's her--I don't know because I -never did interfere with the people that come in there to do business -with her or I I never did say anything to them and I never did answer -her telephone or nothing at that business. I was just sitting in there -talking to her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me suspend with the questioning now, Mrs. Hunter, -until Friday morning. - -Mrs. HUNTER. This Friday morning? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; day after tomorrow. You and Mrs. Whitworth can come -back at that time and we will bring Mrs. Oswald here. - -Mrs. HUNTER. That's all right. She is pretty now but she wasn't then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before you go, I want to show you some pictures here and -ask you if you recognize any of the people in them. I show you Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-A and ask if you recognize anybody in that picture. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just not offhand--not, no; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will ask you the same question with regard to Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-B. - -Mrs. HUNTER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody in that picture? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The same question with respect to Bringuier Exhibit No. 1. - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; not dressed like that--I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 177 and ask if you -recognize anybody in that picture. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to a woman that's holding a child. - -Mrs. HUNTER. I don't know what she's holding--I can't tell that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, there is a woman sitting there in a chair? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As we face the picture, it's on the farthest left, is -that right, and who is that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, that looks like her a little bit--but she's got her -hair fixed still different than she had it in the store that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the man sitting right next to her, does he -look like the man that was in the store that day? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he resembles the man that was in the -store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; that's not him, and that's Mrs. Oswald. That may be -a brother, but that's not him. I never did see his brother because I -didn't watch none of that. I just didn't want to live with it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Garner -Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that looks like anybody you have ever seen -before. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, looking from up this way it could be--from here -up--it could be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that that resembles the man who was in the -store somewhat? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I would say he's kind of built that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C, does that look like -the man who was in the store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, it could look like him some, but he was not dressed -that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not sure that that was him? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I wouldn't say it was with him dressed that way -because I didn't have that much hankering to really tell what he -really looked like and it has been so long since I've seen it on the -television that I wouldn't guarantee that--not looking for nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. We will see you on Friday. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EDITH WHITWORTH - -The testimony of Edith Whitworth was taken at 5 p.m., on July 22, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand and take the oath, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the -Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. -11130, dated November 29, 1963, and by joint resolution of Congress No. -137. - -Under the Commission's rules relating to the taking of testimony by -the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present at this -or any other hearing at which you may appear before the Commission -and you are entitled to 3-days' notice of your appearance here. You -are also entitled to exercise the usual privileges with regard to -self incrimination and so forth as far as not answering questions is -concerned. I assume that since you are here without an attorney, that -you do not wish to have your attorney present at the session. In fact, -very few witnesses do have their attorneys present. Am I correct in -that understanding? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I assume that--I don't see any use of me having -one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. My name is Edith Whitworth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I live at 315 South Jefferson, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are married; is that correct? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many children do you have? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I have two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old are they? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. My daughter is 24 years old and my son 19 years old. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were they born? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. My daughter was born May 13, 1940, and my son was born -May 20, 1945. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your daughter is also married, is she not? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is her married name? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Her married name--her husband's name is Bobby Gene -Hollaway, and her name is Joyce. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It's spelled [spelling] H-o-l-l-a-w-a-y, is that correct? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have any children? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have two children. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are they, and when were they born? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. The first one--Bryan will be 3 years old the 20th of -October, I think I'm right on that; and the other one was born the 10th -day of last October--he will be 1 year old. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The youngest one was born when? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Wait--I said the 20th of October--I believe that oldest -one is the 28th of October--I am sorry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the older child? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Bryan Douglas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say he was born on what date? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe it was October 28. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What year? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. And he will be 3 years old this October--he was 2 last -year--that will be 1961, wouldn't it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The other child's name is what? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Jeffery Lynn. He was born October 10, 1963. You got -me on those birthdays--I have forgotten them. I believe October 28 is -right--I'm not just real sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you formerly operated a used -furniture store in Irving, Tex.; is that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I did until about the 25th day of January of this -year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the name of that store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Furniture Mart. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. 149 East Irving Boulevard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Irving Boulevard runs east and west, does it not? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it does. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the street is the furniture store on? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be on the right-hand side going west. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going away from Dallas or toward Dallas? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Going west. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the north side? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. The north side; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI has advised us that you have told them that -some time during 1963, you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was in your -furniture store; is that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell me all the circumstances surrounding that -event, to the best of your recollection? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, as far as the date, I couldn't, you know, say -that it was any day--any special day, but it was along the first of -November. We had, you know, a discussion about the babies--that's the -reason you have that there about my baby--my grandchildren, and their -children. They had the baby with them at that time. We had at one time -had a gun shop in there. We had a gunsmith sign out in front and I -presume he had came up and saw that sign there and he stopped and came -in. We have two doors in this place of business--one was on the west -side and the west end, and one on the east end. He had pulled up there -at the front as well as I remember and he walked around his car and -came into the west door. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him drive up in the car? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; because it was all glass in front and I was -sitting at the--well, it's the cash stand--we call it there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction was he driving the car at that time? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He was driving west on a one-way street--that's a one -way there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Running from east to west? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. East to west. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a car did he have, Mrs. Whitworth? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, as far as I can remember--I wouldn't be--I -wouldn't say for sure. All I can say is that I believe, you know, not -paying a lot of attention to the car and the car not meaning anything -at that time, that it was a two-tone blue and white. It was either a -Ford or a Plymouth. Now, I wouldn't swear to that, but it was either -one--the car didn't mean anything to me at that time. Anyway, he came -in and he stood---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you some questions about the car first--how -many people were in the car when you saw it drive up? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention to it--just really when it -drove up out there. When I did pay attention to it was when he got back -in it, you know, and it was faintly, you know. As to them getting back -in it, I wouldn't say that there was anyone else in it--I wouldn't say -that they were the only ones that was in it. They were the only ones -that come in the store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice specifically that Oswald was driving? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say that he was, and I wouldn't say that -he drove off in the car. I wouldn't say that, because, like I say, it -didn't mean anything to me at that time, just faintly, I would say that -that car was blue and white, two-tone, and that it was either a Ford or -a Plymouth--now, I wouldn't swear to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, he drove up in front of the store and he got out of -the car and came in--which door--did he come in? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came in the west door. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He came in the west door? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. West door; he came in and he stood right in front of -me there, and I arose up out of my chair and asked him, you know, if -I could help him and he asked for something for a gun, and he had -whatever this was wrapped up and it was about so long, as well as I -can remember, not paying too much attention to it at that time, but -we didn't have the gunshop in there then. It had gone out of business -and I told him, no, I didn't have anything there, and whatever he was -looking for--that I didn't have it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say, "so long," you held your hands up and -how many inches was that--would you hold your hands up again? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH [indicating]. I would say it was about like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many inches do you think that is? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I would say about 15 inches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About 15 inches? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's what I would say. You know, just judging it. -It could have been longer and it could have been shorter, but it was -wrapped up, I know that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have occasion to open it up for you while he -was in the store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ask you about a specific part for it? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he did. But I don't know what it was because I -didn't pay any attention to it because it was something, you know, for -a gun and I couldn't help him, so I didn't pay any attention to it, you -know, because I never worked in a gunshop anyway and I know nothing -about guns whatever. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How come he came into this used furniture shop looking -for a gun part? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I had a sign--I mean, I had had a gun shop in -there, a man had leased part of my store and he had a gunshop in there, -one part of it, but he had been moved for quite a while, but the sign -hadn't been taken down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, there was still a sign on the front of the building -saying that there was a gunshop there? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell me what are the other circumstances? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. And when I told him that I didn't have anything--I -didn't have what he was looking for, but I probably told him where -he could go get it. I don't remember that I did, but I usually would -tell someone where they could go to get such a thing and he turned -around and he looked and he realized, I guess, that it was a furniture -store and he said, "You have furniture in here?" I said, "Yes, I do." -He says, "I'm going to need some in a couple of weeks or so," and I -said, "Well, I'll be glad to show you what I have." I had new and -used furniture and he wanted bedroom furniture, he told me that, and -he turned--he went back to the car and came back in and when he came -back in his wife followed him in with the young baby and the little -girl and we walked straight to the back of the building where I had -the bedroom suites and I showed him the bedroom suites and I told him -about the bedroom suites and I noticed that he would look over to her -and she would never--she never uttered a word and I thought she didn't -like what I had and was uninterested, because I didn't, you know, high -pressure them to sell them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were they interested in new furniture or used furniture? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I never did get that far along to find out, you -know, what they wanted, because she acted like she wasn't interested, -you know, and I couldn't talk to him and he was the only one saying -anything, and then we got talking about the babies. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that conversation about? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, we was comparing the birthdays of the children -and my grandchildren had birthdays kind of similar to theirs, you -know, and so it went even so far as to--I said, "Well, we wanted a -little girl. We wanted one of ours to be a little girl." He said, he -wanted one of his to be a little boy and just jokingly, I said, "Well, -let's just swap then." And, he kind of smiled but she still didn't -say anything, didn't even offer to show us the baby. We didn't know -then, you know, that she couldn't even speak, or probably couldn't -understand what we said, so she walked clear away from us and we walked -back toward the front of the building there and she walked out ahead -of him--the little girl was right in front of her, you know, and this -was the older little girl, and they went on to the car and the little -girl was kind of whining and at one time I thought--well, I'll offer -her a piece of candy. I had candy in there, you know, but I never did, -I never did offer them any candy and they went on off, but it was them -just as sure as I'm sitting here--I'm sure it was him and her too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In this conversation about the babies, did they tell -you--did this man tell you when his little baby had been born? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was 2 weeks old. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was 2 weeks old at that time? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he told you it was 2 weeks old? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the date on which the baby was born? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He probably did at that time, but I don't know--the -date on that kind of corresponded with the date of the birthday of my -oldest grandson there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection as to whether or not he told -you the date or not; is that correct? Or you just don't remember the -date--do you remember whether he told you or not? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'm sure that he told me. I just don't remember the -date. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you by saying, "Well, the baby is 2 weeks -old," or did he tell you specifically that the baby was born on such -and such a date; do you remember? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I wouldn't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure he -told me the date at that time but the baby was 2 weeks old and I judge -that he would have been in the store around the 4th, 5th, or 6th of -November, because we were fixing to go to a ball game, this lady and -I, and I have a son that plays football for Irving High School and we -were going on to the football game and that's how come this lady to be -in there. You know, we were planning to go together or get tickets to -the football game and it had to be along in there--the first week in -November. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you remember a specific football game that you -were going to see; is that how you fixed the date as early in November? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what ball game that would have been? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. It probably was Richland Hills that we were going to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Richland Hills was going to play who? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Irving, and we were going to Richland Hills--that's a -Fort Worth team. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made any efforts, since this question came up, -to find out the exact date on which the Richland Hills team played the -Irving team, did you go back and look it up? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did at one time, but I couldn't tell you -what the date was now, except that it was a Friday night. It was going -to be on Friday and it was before that Friday. Now, Mrs. Hunter might -be able to tell you that. I didn't go back and try to review anything -before I come over here. At that time, you know, I knew what game it -was, but I haven't reviewed it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did I understand you to say correctly that there was a -friend of yours that was in the store at the time they were there? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was Mrs. Hunter? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; Mrs. Hunter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did I also understand you to say correctly that Mrs. -Hunter was there for the purpose of getting tickets to go to the -football game? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. We were planning a trip, you know, to this football -game. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does Mrs. Hunter ordinarily come into the store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she did--I had just begun to know her, you know, -and it all come about through school doings and all, and I usually got -her tickets or she got my tickets when we were going to travel to a -game or so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix a day of the week any more specifically than -you have as to when this might have occurred? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I couldn't--no; I couldn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Hunter come in usually on a particular day or -did she just come in from time to time? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she said she did--for some reason why or other, -but to me, I couldn't fix any certain day, you know, working in the -public like I did and all that. I couldn't, you know, not meaning -anything at that time--I couldn't put a date on it, you know, what -day she come or anything. Usually, the tickets would go on sale on a -Tuesday or Wednesday, if they were going to travel to play, and I have -my tickets to the home games, you know, and she could say what day it -was, but I couldn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this particular ball game going to be played at -Richland Hills; is that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you were talking about getting the tickets and were -going on over to Richland Hills? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. To this game. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you said Lee Oswald--the Oswalds were in your store -on the weekend preceding the game? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't the weekend. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the week? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. During the week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right; during the week preceding the weekend on which -Richland Hills played Irving. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by two agents of the -FBI about the middle of December on this whole question? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. On a Saturday; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Saturday, December 14, 1963. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I do remember; it was a Saturday that they came out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember the names of the agents? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I don't. They were just two tall fellows and I -don't even know the names--I didn't take them down and I didn't think -it was that important. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling those two men specifically that -when this man's wife came in, when Oswald's wife came in, that Oswald -told you that his youngest child had been born on October 20, 1963? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Probably so--somewhere, you know, it was along that -time, but you know it has been so long now that I have forgotten the -dates. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember telling the FBI agents specifically -the date October 20, 1963? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe so. Now, like I say, I wouldn't swear to that -but if I told them, that's what he had told me. I haven't reviewed -this, like I say, before I come over here, so I'm just telling you what -I think absolutely is true--the truth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right; and I want to try and find the state of your -recollection as to just what this man told you about the date of birth -of this young child, and if you remember specifically that he told you -that the child was born October 20, 1963, I want you to tell me that, -and if you can't remember that, I want you just to say that and it is -very important that you give me the exact state of your recollection on -that. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Now, I'm not going to say that I remember him telling -me that because it has been too long ago, you know, it has been too -long back to say it was October 20--like when I come over here and you -asked me my grandson's birthday that I had forgotten and there is too -much that goes through my mind in that length of time. We talked about -it and I'm sure he told me the birthdays of the babies, but it has been -too long now and I wouldn't say that he told me October 20, but the -baby was 2 weeks old when he was in the store and it was the first week -in November that he was in the store and I don't know what date that -would have been that he was in the store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else in the store besides you and Mrs. -Hunter and this man Oswald and the wife and the two little children -during this time? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I don't believe there was. There was someone out in -front of the store, you know, there always was. I remember something -about that, but I wouldn't swear that there was anyone out there in -front, any particular person out in front, but there usually was two -or three men that kind of hung around there because that was on the -corner and had been the bus station and, you know, people just walk in -and walk out there, you know, and they ask for information for first -one thing and another, you know, in my store and I was always real good -about giving them information and like I probably told him where he -could go get the gun part he was looking for. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you directed him to another -gunshop or not? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Just to be sure about it, I don't know now, but I'm -just almost sure that I did if he asked me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where you told him to go? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. If I directed him, it would have been east of me, -probably at the Irving Sports Shop or even down on the highway at some -pawnshop or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the man who owns the Irving Sports Shop? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; Woodrow Greener. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known him? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Oh, I have known Woodrow for about 20 years, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a good friend of his or close to him at all? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I wouldn't say real close--I just knew him. He had -been in and out of business there for a number of years and I have -lived in Irving all of my life, so I wouldn't say I was a real close -friend to him--I just know him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a young man by the name of Dial Ryder? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't know Dial Ryder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Ryder now; have you met him since that time? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever discussed this series of events with Mr. -Greener? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I did discuss it with Mr. Greener over the -telephone and Woodrow Greener was out of town. He said at that time he -probably was, but he was gone deer hunting, you know, he hunts, and he -and his wife were out of town at that time because we talked about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you talk to Mr. Greener about this; do you -remember? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. When the FBI men came out there and talked to me on the -Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On that same Saturday? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never had any discussion with Mr. Greener at -any time about this at all prior to the time in November when the FBI -talked to you; is that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not until the FBI talked to me, you know, I didn't talk -to him or anything, but I called Woodrow on the telephone and told him -and the FBI men were in his store at that time when I called him and -that was the only time he told me, but I don't think I was even in town -at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you read the newspaper, generally speaking? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which newspapers do you read? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I take them all--I read them all. I take the -Dallas Morning News and I take the Times Herald out of Dallas and then -I have the Irving papers too and I read them all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that shortly after the assassination, -around Thanksgiving time, as a matter of fact, there was a story in the -Dallas Times Herald to the effect that Oswald had had some work done on -his rifle in the Irving Sports Shop? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I read that and I also saw it on television. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw that, it was also reported on television; is -that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it sure did. As well as I can remember it, it -showed this Ryder, or whatever his name was, working around there and -talking to the men. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the first person you ever discussed Oswald's -presence in your store with? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never discussed it until I saw him on television and -also his wife. First, when I saw him on television I told my husband, -but my husband didn't work in the store, then, he worked at another -furniture store on down on the east end of the road, you know, and I -told him, I said, "Why, I have seen the fellow somewhere before," and -it didn't dawn on me at that minute where. He says, "Well, you have -probably seen him in the store." Just like that. I mean, anybody would -come through Irving and be looking for anything like that would more -than likely stop in my store quicker than they would any other place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Looking for furniture, you mean? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, if he was looking for a gun or anything like that -he would stop in there because this sign was a real good sign, you -know, it was and out there, and also it was a good furniture location. -So he said "You probably have," and we didn't discuss it any more until -we saw her on television, Mrs. Oswald, and she was leaving the jail or -something, with her mother-in-law and had these two babies. I said, -"Oh, yes, I remember them real well," and I discussed it again with him -and I told him about this and I said that those kids are about the age -of Bryan and Jeff and we discussed it again and then I knew definitely -he had been in there and I knew that he was the fellow that I talked -to, and I said, "Well, he seemed to be such a nice man." He even -thanked me for my time when he walked out--you know, he thanked me for -the time I had spent with him, more so than anyone else. I mean, very -few people will thank anyone for their time in a store like that, you -know, but he did. He thanked me for his time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that a newspaper reporter came into your -store one day and talked to you about this? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. A lady. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was before the FBI men came and talked to me and I -don't have her name, but one of the FBI men called me and asked me if I -remembered her name and I don't. The only thing, she came in a little -foreign car and another gentleman was driving the car for her and she -showed me her credentials, just who she was, and she told me she was a -White House correspondent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember her name if I suggested it to you? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know whether I would or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about Coleman, does that seem familiar to you? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Might have been. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when she came by, was that after you had -seen Ryder on television telling about Oswald? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; that was before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was before? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell this lady reporter the same story you -told us--exactly? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; and she took it down at that time and this -gentleman that was with her, he had a tape recorder and he took down -everything that I said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They took it down on a tape recorder? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he sure did, and she wrote it down in a little -notebook, you know, but she accidentally stopped in the store. I had -never told anyone, you know, had ever made the statement to anybody -that he was in there. Of course, it was discussed, I'm sure, to people -that I knew, you know, I said, "Well, I had seen him," but there are a -lot of people in Irving I'm sure that had seen him and his wife both. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you after you became aware of the fact -that Oswald had been in your store asking for some repairs about a gun -that you should call the FBI or the Dallas Police Department and tell -them about this? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it really didn't. I just figured I would wait and -see if anybody got to looking for him. I didn't contact anyone. I -waited until they contacted me. I didn't know where I could be any help -to them at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, the Oswalds walked out of the store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then you said Mrs. Oswald, I believe, and the -children went out first; is that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. They were ahead of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long was Oswald in the store--how long did he stay in -the store after they left? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he followed them right on out, but they were in -line. She started out before he did, with the children, and the little -girl--the little 2-year-old, you know, was ahead of all of them and -I had a little stepoff there and the mother kind of waited until she -stepped off of that, but Oswald himself never did help her with the -children or anything like that while she was in the store, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And during the time they were in the store she didn't say -one word? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. She never uttered one word that I knew about. I -caught him at one time looking at her and I kind of felt like they -were exchanging glances or something like that, you know, but she -never uttered one word, either whether she liked it or whether she -didn't like it, and I made the remark after they left, after we talked -about trading the children, you know, jokingly, and I said to Mrs. -Hunter, "Well, I don't think she liked what I said about trading those -children," and she didn't offer to show us the baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You made quite a fuss over the children, I presume? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I am a great hand to notice children. I just -really am, you know, and I always felt like it was one way to get in -touch with the customer--is to brag on the children, you know. The -closer you get to them the better off you are when you are trying to -sell them something, and really, I was, you know, interested in selling -him furniture when he told me he needed it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about this little 3-year-old girl, did she seem to be -an ordinarily developed girl---she could walk around and everything? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she was pretty. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything at all? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. She mumbled--as she went out of the store she was about -halfway crying, not really crying, but mumbling something. I couldn't -understand her or anything, and that's the reason that at one time -I thought--well, I'll hand her a piece of candy, but then I didn't -because a lot of people don't like you to give their children candy and -the woman hadn't been friendly enough with me to make me really want -to, but I really would have liked to have given the little girl some -candy. She was a beautiful little child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the little girl say anything you could understand at -all? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; she just kind of whined like, you know, it might -have been that she was a little cowed or something--I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as they walked out of the store, did you see them -get in the car? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did, but I didn't pay much attention to -them--to remember how they did--I didn't--it was just like anybody -else walking out of the store, you know, I didn't see them get in the -car. I'm sure they got in a car and I just faintly remember that maybe -that that car was a two-tone car and that they got in there and drove -off and like I say, I don't know how they got into the car, because I -didn't pay too much attention to them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see where they went when they got in the car? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay too much attention. Mrs. Hunter said they -went back the wrong way down the street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see that? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably saw it but I didn't--I wouldn't say that -they did because I don't know. So many people pull that stunt anyway -and it was just everyday, you know, people make mistakes on that street -all the time about going the wrong way and I had seen numbers of them -going the wrong way and if they did go, the wrong way, you know, I -don't remember it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It wasn't such an extraordinary thing to have that happen? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; but what was, you know, out of the ordinary -person--not talking. I'm friendly--I'm just a real friendly person and -going on over the babies--I would have liked to have looked at the -baby and all. That was what stuck with me more than anything else, you -know, the way she acted and him too. He was nothing out of the ordinary -except that he thanked me for his time, you know, that he had taken, -and I suggested furniture to him and tried to find out what kind they -were looking for and they weren't quite ready for it and it was going -to be a couple of weeks before they moved out and he told me that they -were living in an apartment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him. So many people would come in the store, -you know, to buy furniture you know, and try to get it as cheap as they -could because they were living in a furnished apartment, so I usually -asked them if they were in apartments or something, and he told me they -were and I know they wanted bedroom furniture, because I took them back -there and showed them bedroom furniture. They also had to have living -room furniture and I asked him what type of furniture and I said, -"So many people are using Early American or Danish Modern." I mean, -young people were using a lot of that Danish Modern and I couldn't -get anything out of her even after suggesting that and I thought if I -suggested that that they would tell me what they were looking for, but -I never did find out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say where they lived? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he said they were living in an apartment? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. They were living in an apartment--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you hear subsequent to that time on television -that Oswald and his wife weren't living together? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I heard, yes; you know--after the assassination, I -mean, but even at that time I never asked him his name or anything -like that. If I had carried out what I usually do, I would have gotten -his name, because if they are looking for anything that I don't -have--didn't have in the store, I would suggest that they let me give -them a card, you know, to go to the wholesale house. Had I given them -a card to the wholesale house, he would have had to give me his name. -You see, I didn't get that far along on it. I mean, you know, and I -just didn't--I wished I had now, but she sure was with him, whether she -knew where she was going or what she was doing or anything, but she -certainly was with him. Even, you know, her dress and all--as far as -telling you what color she had on--I could tell you just about how she -was dressed. She looked clean but she looked like she was a person that -had gotten in the car to come up to town for something and she probably -come out of the house with just the dress she had on and a short coat, -and the little girl had on some kind of a short coat. It wasn't really -cold--it wasn't real cold then and he had on slacks. He didn't have on -what I call really work clothes--he wasn't dressed--but he had on a -pair of slacks. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt did he have on? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. It was a sport coat, I think, with the collar turned -back and he had on a sweater, you know, deal. They weren't dressed, -you know, really dressed, but they were dressed good enough to go out, -you know, to kind of casual shop or something like that--that kind of -shopping. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure that they drove up at first in an -automobile and that they went back out and got into an automobile and -drove away? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; they did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The report that I have of the interview you had with the -FBI agents in December indicates that you told them that they went out -of the store and got into the car and made a =U=-turn and drove off -east down Irving Boulevard. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them that? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, where I got that--I wouldn't swear that they -really went down, you know, turned their car there--Mrs. Hunter told me -that they did, you know, and kind of reviewed me at that time, but so -many people did that anyway that they went back down the wrong way. - -It has been so long now I have, you know, really forgotten whether they -did or not, but you know, the color of the car and the make of the car -stands out more to me than anything. There was only one correct way for -them to go and that was west. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't at any time see anybody else with them? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't swear to it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see anyone--no. They didn't get out of the -car, let me put it that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the car close enough at any time to see -whether there was anybody else sitting in the car? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I could have seen it, but I didn't pay any attention to -it. They could have had a driver--I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a station wagon that was sitting -out there? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'm not sure--I'm really not, but it does not seem like -it was. Had I known all this was coming up I would have took it all -down, but you know, people--when you are in business, you don't pay -a lot of attention to that, but there are incidents that happen that -will, you know, be clear in your mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit -No. 453-A, and I ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't--no; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph that has been marked Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-B, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know this one either. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody in there either? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; not as far as I see it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, do you see -anybody in there that looks familiar? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I couldn't identify anyone in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about Garner Exhibit No. 1, does that person -look familiar to you? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he does. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That one does? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And is that the same man that came in the store that day? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; he looked younger in the store than he does there. -Of course, there's the shadow that's on him there that causes him to -look that way, but he does. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like the man that came in the store--do -you have any doubt about it? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but what it wasn't -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will show you this one--Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Now, that looks more like him--he was more pleasant -looking in the store than he is in these pictures here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Commission -Exhibit No. 171, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Huh. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you recognize there? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Mrs. Oswald is there, I mean, his wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that's the woman that was in the store that -day? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; but of course she's not dressed there like she -was, but that's her and that's the little girl and the little girl -wasn't dressed like that either. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will show you a photograph marked Commission -Exhibit No. 177 and I ask you if you recognize anybody in there? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, that's his wife there, isn't it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like the woman that was in the store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she was attractive even then, I mean, she was a -pretty girl then, of course, when she came in the store she wore her -hair just right back and had it in a pony tail back that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she have short hair or long hair? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. She had long hair and had enough that she could tie it -back here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about that man sitting in the middle there of -Commission Exhibit No. 177, does he look familiar to you? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he kind of resembles him--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look something like the man that was in the -store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; the one sitting there with her? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; here is another picture that has been marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 172, and I ask you if you recognize any of the -people in that picture? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's Mrs. Oswald there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the man? Does that man look like the man that -was there in the store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it resembles him. Of course, if I could see -him right in the face, you know, like I looked at him--the features -are---like him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and in Exhibit No. 177, of course, he does present a -full face. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That looks more like him there, you know, it really -does. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, the testimony that you have given to -us about this event is of considerable importance to the Commission for -many reasons that are not, I'm sure, even clear to you at the moment. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be willing to come back again on Friday morning -and meet with Marina Oswald and the children to see if those really -were the people that were in your store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. This Friday morning? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I like you to put it up early enough--I go to work at -12 on Friday and if you would make it real early, and I have another -appointment real early Friday morning that I could put off, I guess, or -maybe do it in the morning. I have an appointment to get my hair fixed -on Friday and I have that every Friday morning and I go to work at 12 -and I would like for this not to interfere any more than is possible, -you know, with my job. I work for J. C. Penney's there in Plymouth Park -and they are real nice. They have given me time off because they had -to, you know, but I would rather it not interfere with that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time would be convenient for you on Friday -morning--about 9 o'clock? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would like to meet with her--that would be all right. -Really, I would like to meet with her one time, you know, to--of -course, I have only seen her on television and I saw her there at the -store and I would like for her to tell me that she went into that -store. I believe she would if she's telling what she did--she might not -recognize me now, you know, out of the store, but I believe that woman -would tell you that she went in that store if she saw that store. I -believe she would--that little girl, the oldest one, isn't she a dark -headed girl, and at that time she wore--she had her bangs cut. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know; I have never seen the little girl. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she was real attractive and I am attracted to -little girls, you know, I just love them. Of course, I love little -boys, too, you understand, because I've got one of them, but little -girls--mine--I used to sew for them and I have always wanted another -little girl and I always made over little girls more so than I did -little boys, that that little girl, as well as I remember, she had -straight hair and she had little bangs in the front and she was just a -real cute child, but I would really like to meet with them again and I -would like for her to tell me that she went in that store. She would -remember it; I'm sure that she would remember it. There isn't any doubt -in my mind but that she wasn't in there and him too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then, we will meet with you again at 9 o'clock on Friday -morning. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. All right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By the way, how long would you say that the husband and -wife were in the store from the time that they came back in the second -time? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, 30 or 40 minutes--maybe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was during the time that they were looking at -furniture? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she didn't come in, now, until he went back to the -car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My question is: From the time that he went back out and -she came in, how long were the two of them in the store together? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'd say 30 or 40 minutes, which is a long time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and did she seem interested in any of the -furniture--what did she do during this 30 or 40 minute period? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she walked back where we were and I had moved -some beds to show her, pulling them around and showing them to her, and -as well as I remember, I had a little red maple suite back there and -I had some dark walnut suites and I was showing them used furniture -because they looked like people that would buy used furniture and she -stood there and looked and, like I say, the little girl was whining -around and I would see him exchange glances at her, you know, kind of -look up and down but I never did see her--I never did catch her but I -thought they were exchanging glances at one another and she was not -interested and she walked back up and around in the other part of the -store and I stayed back there and I talked to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that there was any hostility -between these two people that they weren't getting along too well? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she just didn't say anything. She wasn't -interested in what he was looking at, didn't look to be, you know, -and if they were--well--I just don't know, or I would say that there -was any misunderstanding--there wasn't any smiles and there wasn't any -jokes and neither one of them exchanged smiles. It wouldn't be like if -I was going out shopping and my husband was going to buy something for -me. I believe I would be more pleasant, but you know, I guess she just -didn't know what he was talking about, but we were looking at furniture -and I believe he went back to the car and told her to get out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She just didn't seem to be very interested in that -furniture? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; she didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any other occasion in the entire time -you have been running a furniture store, when a man and a wife came in -and spent 30 or 40 minutes looking at furniture in a store and they -never exchanged one single word between each other? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; not one single word. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That just almost defies ordinary human experience; -doesn't it? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Wouldn't you say that--usually? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I never had anything like that. They usually agree -or disagree and they usually exchange a few words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they usually exchange a few words. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I never had an occasion like that--that's the -reason it stood out to me like that more than anything else. I have -waited on a lot of people in 10 years and I have had an awful lot of -people come in my store. Some of them I would recognize and some of -them I wouldn't, but that incident just stood out and after all of -this--you just knew it was them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that -Oswald, or this man that came into the store, was looking for a -plunger--did he tell you what he was looking for, that he was looking -for a plunger? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. It might have been a plunger. Like I say, I don't know -a thing in the world about guns. It could have been a plunger. We have -discussed that since then and I have never said what it was that he -was looking for--whatever he had--he had in his hands. I mean, he had -something in his hand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing in the store when he walked out -and they got in the car? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe I walked back up to where my cash--in my -cash stand and it hit me about right here and I could lean on it and -my candy stand--I would have had to walk around another bar to have -gotten to the candy because I couldn't reach over and get it and I was -standing right like this and I was looking down on them and this bar -hit me about right here [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About waist high? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. And I couldn't have went inside unless I had turned and -walked back around and that's as far as I got--was the cash register. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see the car from where you were standing? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I could have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see it drive east down Irving Boulevard -against the traffic? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say that I did see it drive east--I don't -believe--we talked about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who did? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I might have made a statement one time about -that, but right now, I wouldn't say he did. There's too many cars that -drove up there that did go the wrong way, but I would say it was a blue -and white car and I have always said that it was a Ford or Plymouth--it -was something with fins on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say we discussed it--what do you mean by that--who is -"we"? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Mrs. Hunter and I, you know, now as far as going back -down the wrong way on that street--I wouldn't swear that the man did -and I don't think that I ever made the statement that he drove off, -because I don't know that he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I quote the FBI report of your interview on December 14, -1963: "On leaving the Furniture Mart (second hand furniture store) the -Oswalds made a =U=-turn and left driving against traffic on East Irving -Boulevard in the direction of a gun repair shop in either a 1956 or -1957 two-tone blue and white Ford or Plymouth." Do you remember telling -the agents that? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did and it might be fresher in my mind at -that time that they did go, but right now--I have talked with Mrs. -Hunter so much, that she was the one actually that said that they went -on the one way street the wrong way. Now, I might have said it at that -time, but right now, you know, it has been a good while since that -happened and not ever thinking anything would come of it--that I could -be more specific on what happened on the inside of the store than what -happened on the outside, because things like that happen every day, you -know, I mean on the outside, but no two people ever come in there and -acted like that for that length of time, you know, that I'm not going -to swear that he went the wrong way and I'm not going to say that he -drove that car off from there. Like I say, it wasn't that important to -me to know that at that time because I didn't know I was going to have -to--if I had--I would have been more specific about it, but I was in -a position where I could have seen it, but we remarked after he left -about what I had said and I got no comment about it from her, you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much and we will see you Friday -morning. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD, EDITH WHITWORTH, AND GERTRUDE -HUNTER - -The testimony of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude -Hunter was taken at 11 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the -U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, -Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. Present were June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, -children of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William A. McKenzie and Henry Baer, -counsel for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; Peter Paul Gregory, interpreter; -and Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S. -Secret Service. - -[Note.--The asterisk represents a response by Marina Oswald without -assistance of the interpreter. All other responses shown for Marina -Oswald were through the interpreter.] - - -Mr. LIEBELER. May the record show, Marina, that you have previously -been sworn as a witness when you appeared before the Commission in -Washington? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you will regard the testimony that you are going to -give here this morning as a continuation of the testimony you gave to -the Commission, and I assume you will regard yourself as being under -oath as you did before the Commission? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that Marina has indicated -she will regard herself as being under a continuing oath? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The basic purpose for your presence here this morning -relates to testimony that has been given by two ladies, Mrs. Whitworth -and Mrs. Hunter, who are outside, that you were in a furniture store -in Irving, Tex., in early November with your two children and with Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Mrs. OSWALD. [No response.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you had previously testified about this -and have told the Commission that you were not in the store at that -time. We want these two ladies to have an opportunity to see you and -have you see them, to see if your recollection can be refreshed or if -they were mistaken. Is that agreeable with you, Marina? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I can remember--I'm sure, I never forget and the baby -is just 2 weeks. I would like to know under what circumstances these -two ladies saw me at that particular time? - -Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, where the store is located? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter -have come into the room [reporter's note: 11:10 a.m.], and let the -record further show that they have both previously testified that -sometime in early November 1963, they saw Marina and the two children -and Lee Oswald in a furniture store located on East Irving Boulevard in -Irving, Tex. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name of the street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will ask Mrs. Whitworth, who was the operator -of that store, the address of the store and to describe the store -generally for Marina and its name. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. The store was known as the Furniture Mart. The name -was clearly on it, and it was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard. -That's at the corner of Jefferson and Irving Boulevard on the north -side of the street and in the same block with the bank. In fact, the -back of it was up to the Bank & Trust there and it looked like at one -time it might have been a service station and we had changed it into a -furniture store, and they would have seen more used furniture in it, -because we had new and used furniture. This clear enough? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of the streets--that wouldn't -be material to me. I wouldn't remember it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. - -Mr. GREGORY. Would you like for me to give the complete answer of this -lady to her? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be the main thoroughfare in Irving. - -Mr. GREGORY. That's the street across from the bank? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it would be in the same block with the Irving Bank -& Trust. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing I am interested in is whether Mrs. -Whitworth actually knows me or not, whether this lady actually saw me -or knows me or not. That's what I am interested in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let us ask Mrs. Whitworth to describe briefly the -circumstances under which you say these people came in the store. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And the time of the day, establish the time of the day -and the complete circumstances. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it would be more from the middle of the day -until, you see, say 3 o'clock in the afternoon or maybe 4 o'clock in -the afternoon. When they came in, and drove up to the front, and Mr. -Oswald came in the store first. - -He came in and asked, you know, about this part of the gun and then -he went back to the car, and after asking me about, you know, it--I -said I didn't have the part--I didn't have the gun part that he -wanted, he said, "You have furniture in here?" And I said, "Yes." He -said, "I am going to be needing some," and he went back to the car -and took whatever he had back to the car, and then he came back in -and she followed him and she had the baby in her arms. It was a tiny -baby--he told me it was 2 weeks old, and this little girl [indicating -June Oswald] was walking in front of Mrs. Oswald and she was whining -a little bit and Mrs. Oswald was, you know, carrying the baby and we -come back in and went to the extreme back of the store, and I showed -them some bedroom suites and had to pull these beds out and Mrs. Oswald -stood there and she never said anything, but Mr. Oswald and I talked, -you know, about the furniture, and then we talked about the babies, -but she turned and left before he did, you know, because I walked back -up to the front of the store with him, because she was already at the -front of the store by the time we turned and went up there, and it was -a cool day and it was cool enough that you would have on a little wrap -and this little girl, as well as I remember, had on some kind of a -short sweater or coat, and Mrs. Oswald had on a short coat too, and she -had her hair tied back. - -She doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then -and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still -hadn't gone back like she was. This baby was just a tiny thing. I -didn't see it, it was wrapped up in some kind of a blanket, but this -little girl--it definitely was her. It seemed like her hair was a -little darker but she did have on some kind of a cap. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand this? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I wonder if somebody was in car or not? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That, I wouldn't testify that there was anybody in -the car with you, because I observed what happened in the store, you -know. I mean, you impressed me in the store and not out of the store. -I didn't notice, because too many people drove up. I thought your car -was a two-tone car, either a Ford or a Plymouth--now--I don't know. I -thought it was blue and white--I wouldn't, you know, swear to that. I -mean, too many cars drove up out in front like that, but it was what -happened on the inside of the store that I was more impressed with -and remembered, and your actions and his, because she acted like she -wasn't interested in what he said because she didn't exchange words or -anything, but I did talk to him, and I know it was him and I know she -was in there. - -She may not remember it, but if I was to see her today and seeing her -that day and I was to meet her on the street, it would be hard for me -to identify her. You know, she still has the features, but her face was -round and she had her hair pulled back [indicating]. - -Mr. GREGORY. You mean in a pony tail? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. In a pony tail. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; it wasn't that. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, there was something tied around it--you had -something tied around it, I mean, slicked back from her face. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't wear this. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I called it a pony tail, but it was kind of pulled back -to the back. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I had two pigtails. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she might have--it was tied back and whipped back -from her face. Her face was round then and she was pretty then--I'd say -she was pretty. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. The little girl--I tried to talk to her and attract her -attention, but she was whining all the time she was in there and she -was trying to attend to this little girl and had this baby in her arms -and the little girl walked out in front of her, you know, when they -left the store. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time I was in the store? I do not remember that -I was ever in a furniture store. That does not make a difference for -me. I recall the time when I was in a store with Mrs. Ruth Paine. - -Mr. GREGORY. Which store was it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In that store they were selling baby things and towels and -I was looking for something for a child. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't sell anything like that--mine was all -furniture. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. There was just one store like that. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. But we went to the extreme back of the store and, as -well as I remember, I had a used reddish maple bookcase headboard bed, -you know, I was showing you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in any furniture store. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she didn't act like she was, even that day, you -know, she walked off. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. You know, not because I want to say you are wrong, but -I can't remember I was in a furniture store, especially when I talked -with somebody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Marina, you said you do remember one time that you -were in a store with Mrs. Paine and with Lee and with the children. Do -you remember how long you were in the store that time? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. About 30 minutes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And how long, Mrs. Whitworth, was she in the store this -time that you are talking about? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say from 30 to 40 minutes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Marina seeing any furniture in the -store at that time? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was a cafe on that side--on the left side and -baby clothes on the right side, and a radio and that's all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you went to that store for? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. To buy Junie pants--rubber pants. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever -seeing these ladies before, Marina? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I -saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like -this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember seeing a woman that looked something -like Mrs. Hunter, here, Mrs. Hunter being the woman in the blue dress? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that I saw her, but I saw a woman or women -like her--not one, but many of that type. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, as you sit here and you look at these -children and you look at Marina, are you sure in your own mind that -these were the people who were in the store that day? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen Marina several times before the baby -came--several times. She said she saw me--do you remember talking to a -lady about getting help for you before your baby came? - -Mrs. OSWALD. For housework? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; she was talking about the welfare of clothes for the -baby before the baby came, but I don't know who she was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, wait just a minute, Mrs. Hunter, you say you talked -to Marina about this? - -Mrs. HUNTER. She was with another woman and this other woman didn't -come around, and I couldn't understand too much of what she said, and -she couldn't understand too much of what I said, and I says, "If you -need help with this baby, we can get you help at Parkland Hospital." Do -you remember that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just a minute, would you describe the other woman? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the other woman don't mean a thing to me. All I -know, she was with this other woman, but I live on Second Street and -it was down below me, four or five different streets and this woman, -I believe, was going to see someone about fixing a tire or changing a -tire. Now, I couldn't tell you what the other woman had on because it -was just curiosity to me why--that her couldn't speak like we could and -was in this condition and I kept asking her where her husband was and -I never did make her understand me and I finally asked her if they had -separated [indicating hand signals]--and I did that way--with her, and -she made me understand he was staying over in town, but then, I didn't -know who she was or nothing about her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did all this happen? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Let me see, it was in a filling station--how come me at -the station--I don't know whether that's the day that we looked at a -car that this man had for sale at the station or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you think this happened, Mrs. Hunter? - -Mrs. HUNTER. It was on the corner of Sixth and Hastings Street--I -know where the station was--I couldn't even tell you the name of the -station, because we were looking at a car there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what were the circumstances under which you were in -this station, Mrs. Hunter? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Now, I have never been there but about twice, but at this -particular time, last July until right after Christmas, we were looking -just for a used pickup or a used car for my husband to haul his tools -in. We have a used car at this time there was a car for sale there. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas? - -Mrs. HUNTER. What? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I said we were looking for used cars, so that's bound -to have been my purpose there because we do not trade with that man. -Do you know a driveway and a filling station and a washateria on Sixth -Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember Irving. - -Mrs. HUNTER. This was before--I would say it was in September or -October. It was before--just a little while, I know, before your baby -came, because I won't tell you the remark I made, but anyhow, I know it -was pretty close--almost due time--you could tell from the way you were -carrying the baby, it was almost time for the baby. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember her [indicating Mrs. Whitworth]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you see this other woman at all, Mrs. Hunter? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; she got out and had her back to me and if I'm not -badly mistaken the woman had on a dark dress, but what the woman looked -like, it wasn't even dawning on me, because I wasn't even interested. -The only thing I seen that she was very uncomfortable and what I -thought she was saying was that she was going to have to have help when -the baby comes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Excuse me, but I would like to ask her a question; may I? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, what is your full name, please? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter. - -Mr. McKENZIE. What is your husband's name? - -Mrs. HUNTER. John T. Hunter. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you work with Mrs. Whitworth there in the store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; just visiting her. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You were not in the store on this particular occasion -that Mrs. Whitworth has described; is that correct? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I was there. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You were there? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And what were you doing in the store that morning or that -day? - -Mrs. HUNTER. We go to football games together and we were down -discussing whether we was going to have, what do you call it, caravan -cars or charter a bus, and it was after 2 o'clock in the afternoon, -because I never did leave the house only after 2. My daughter works at -Commercial Title and she calls me before she goes back off of her lunch -hour at 2 o'clock. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, this was after 2 o'clock and prior to the football -weekend; is that correct? - -Mrs. HUNTER. On Wednesday or Thursday--I won't say just which day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on that occasion when you were in the store with -Mrs. Whitworth at the Furniture Mart, did Mrs. Oswald or her husband -buy any clothes or anything of the sort? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went to talking about the cafe. It used to be -a bus station and it has the counter and the chairs for the cafe. The -only thing she had there was the candy, and there was some used clothes -and a church or welfare or something had had them there, they had their -used clothes there, and there were some shoes there. Now, she might -have thought she was in a cafe or a drygoods store. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. At that time I'm asking you about, did either Mrs. Oswald -or her husband buy any clothes; do you recall? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; they didn't buy anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Mrs. Oswald before; is that correct? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was until now--I do now--I -would know her eyes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Of course, you have seen many pictures of her since then. - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I'll be honest with you, I have only seen her once -on television and that was in Washington, and day before yesterday I -wanted to be sure that this woman had the long hair, and the way it -looked there. Now, I'm honest with him about that. I didn't watch the -run of it on television. - -Mr. McKENZIE. By "him" you are referring to Mr. Liebeler here? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't know what his name is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, on this occasion when she was in the store with the -two children and her husband, that Mrs. Whitworth has described, did -you notice the automobile that they came in? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I sure did. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And was it in the same automobile you had seen her in -before at the filling station? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Not the same? Not the same? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did you go outside and see the automobile? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing in the side door looking up and down the -street while she had went with them to the back. Now, I didn't hear her -say nothing and I don't know whether she said something to the little -girl, or what she said, but she did go "shhh." She could have said -"shhh" or something, but I remember her making some kind of a remark to -the little girl. - -Mr. McKENZIE. To quiet the little girl? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time did you notice the automobile in front? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Can I tell him what I told you? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, what I meant--I didn't want to do something that I -shouldn't. I was looking for some friends of mine from Houston that -drove a two-tone blue and white Ford--a 1957--I think it was, and when -this car drove up, I left a note on my mailbox when I left the house -and I told them if they come while I was gone to come down to this -place, because I would be there, or left her telephone number on the -note too, and when they drove up---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is "they" now? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Mr. and Mrs. Dominik from Houston, and when this car drove -up, I thought it was them and I just said, "Well, my company has come," -and that was it and when I seen he was getting out of the car I just -seen then that it wasn't, and I just sat back down in the platform -rocker there where I was sitting. It was a partition in the front part -of the store and I was sitting right here in platform rocker and there -was some tables and chairs over here and I had opened this side door. -She had it shut and I had opened it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did your friends from Houston come while they were there? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; they never did come up until later on, and he come up -in a truck--several weeks later. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Was there anybody else in the automobile that drove up -that they got out of? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; just her and him and the two children. Now, I wasn't -up close to the car. I was standing in the door and the car was parked -over here something like this, and somebody could have been down in the -floorboard of the car--I wouldn't say they wasn't. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did you see who was driving the automobile? - -Mrs. HUNTER. He got under the steering wheel. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee? - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him drive the car? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I seen him at the steering wheel, under the steering -wheel, and if there was someone else, now, in there, you couldn't see -them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, Mr. Oswald got behind the steering -wheel of the car and he drove the car out of the parking lot in front -of the building somewhere; isn't that right? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen Lee drive the car in my lifetime. Lee -never drove a car with me or the children in it. The only time I saw -him behind the wheel was when Ruth Paine taught him to drive the car, -he was practicing parking the car when Ruth Paine was teaching him to -drive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that was all in front of Mr. Paine's house; wasn't it? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sure this lady is trying to tell the truth, but -the only possible person who could have driven the car when we were in -that store could have been Mrs. Ruth Paine. She knows all the stores -where we went because we never went there without her. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you've got your privileges--you've got your -privileges. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, back in September or October when you were -in the Shell filling station and Mrs. Oswald and the little girl here, -June, and another lady happened to be there--that was the occasion when -your husband was looking for the pickup truck--did either Mrs. Oswald -get out of the car or did the other lady get out of the automobile? - -Mrs. HUNTER. She was standing beside the car, now, I don't even -remember the baby being there--being in the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald was standing beside the car? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Standing beside the car. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And where was the other lady standing? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went either to the restroom or into the filling -station. She wasn't out there--I never did say anything to this woman. - -Mr. McKENZIE. The other woman---- - -Mrs. HUNTER. Do you remember anyone saying anything to you about a -Salvation Army woman? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Salvation Army woman? I don't know what the Salvation -Army is. - -Mrs. HUNTER. This woman was dressed and I told her I would get her, I -would get her a contact. She dresses in these regular white uniforms -most of the time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At the time this lady claims that she saw me, I was not -interested in any help or I did not need any help for the baby from the -standpoint of social help, because we already made all the preparations -for the baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, when you say you saw these people at the -service station, you indicated that the other lady got out of the car, -and even though you didn't see her face, you did see her standing in -the area of the service station; is that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. You see, we had drove up where he had some used cars and -she was there by herself because---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "she" you have to say who. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. HUNTER. And I don't know whether she had got out to go into the -restroom or what, but that's where she seen me instead of in Richardson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My question is, did you see the other lady standing in -the area of the filling station? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't see the other woman--I really couldn't tell -you what she looked like. I just seen a woman go into the filling -station or into the restroom and I presumed it was who she was with, -because she said--she didn't ask for any help and I couldn't understand -her and she couldn't understand me, you see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, I want to try and find out--you said -you saw this other woman walk into the restroom? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I seen a woman--I don't know whether it was the one that -was driving the car she was in or not, because she was standing beside -the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's what I'm trying to get to--was this a skinny -woman, a fat woman, a tall or short woman--what did she look like as -you saw her walk into the restroom? - -Mrs. HUNTER. The woman, I don't believe she was quite as heavy as I am -and a little bit taller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Five feet two. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And she's just a little bit taller than you? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I would say this woman was taller than I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much? - -Mrs. HUNTER. About 5 feet 4. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 feet 4 or 5 feet 5--how much do you think she -weighed? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I would say about 135. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anybody else around the automobile? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it? - -Mrs. HUNTER. When we got in our car and left she was still standing -beside the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald was? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I wouldn't say as to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible, was it a Volkswagen, was it a -station wagon, or was it an ordinary American-type car? - -Mrs. HUNTER. It was just a car--but I wouldn't go back to it, because -it didn't dawn on me for sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a station wagon? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you saw Mrs. Oswald, or who you think was Mrs. -Oswald, in the station there that day before you saw her in the -Furniture Mart; is that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you saw her in the Furniture Mart, did you -recognize her? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; it didn't dawn on me--I didn't think a thing in the -world about it. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, do you remember how I was dressed and was I -pregnant at that time? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did I have on? - -Mrs. HUNTER. All I know is you had on a jacket. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. What color? - -Mrs. HUNTER. It was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it -wasn't red. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Was it blue? - -Mrs. HUNTER. It was more of a rose. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I had a rose short one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before you had seen Mrs. Oswald -several times. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the other times you saw her. - -Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen her in Minyards Grocery Store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is that? - -Mr. McKENZIE. [Spelling] M-i-n-y-a-r-d-s. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. On Irving Boulevard. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Grocery store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. And this drive-in grocery that I was talking about, if you -remember there--I think I had seen her there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the gas station and the furniture shop -and the grocery store, did you ever see her any place else? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about -her, but she had ribbons in here hair. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I have? - -Mrs. HUNTER. She was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long, -and I remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was -at the furniture store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the pigtail? - -Mrs. HUNTER. What I can remember about her was the sad expression in -her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else with Mrs. Oswald when you saw her in the -grocery store? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or -who was with her or nothing about it. I just remember her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You just remember her? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. Maybe it -was somebody just like me? - -Mr. LIEBELER. How is it you remember seeing Mrs. Oswald when you have -no recollection of who she was with or anything like that? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her eyes--I would know her on the street by her eyes -if I was to meet her. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody knows my eyes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about you, Mrs. Whitworth, do you recognize these -people as the people that were in your store that day? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, like I say, she has changed, but I am definitely -sure they were in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as you sit here and look at these children who have -been here this morning with Mrs. Oswald, do you recognize them? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have grown, and according to their ages and -all--they were there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but that they were -there. I believe it might have been, if she could remember, probably -about her, of course, the first time after she had this new baby over -here, her husband told me--Lee Harvey Oswald told me that the baby was -2 weeks old and we discussed my grandchildren about the same age and -they were boys. She probably didn't understand our discussion but we -discussed these two children and my two grandchildren. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I remember Lee exchanging conversations with a woman, but -she was a younger woman and they were talking about the baby. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That was me, probably, but my hair might not be as gray -as it is today and I probably have changed, too, but we discussed the -babies and trading babies, you know, we was just joking, in fact, in -fact I was, anyway, and he said he had hoped to have had a boy when he -had the two girls, and we were hoping for a little granddaughter. We -talked and she walked off. She never would--she never offered to show -us the baby or anything and that's what impressed me more than anything -else. Otherwise, I probably would have never paid any attention to them -being in the store or anything else, but it was that special talking -to him and I was to expedite just about like he was on television one -time. It was cool that day and you had to have on--it was probably the -4th, 5th, or 6th of November. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. That sounds just about like Lee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Marina made that answer when Mrs. Whitworth remarked -that Lee said that he hoped to have a boy and, isn't that right, Marina? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't hear this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because he did want that? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, did he do something unusual--did he -drive up at the store and park the car and get out? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say what he did do, but I saw the car come -up and I think it was his own car, and I think that it was his own car -and I know the door that he came in and I know he went back to the -car and she came in, but she didn't come in the same door as he did. -Whether he drove that car up there, I won't say he didn't and I won't -say he drove it off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that he got into the car and drove it -off going the wrong way down the street, as a matter of fact? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I think, really, that Mrs. Hunter and I had talked -about it, but I'm not going to say that she described the car at all, -but all I want to say is that they were in that store that day, you -know, they've got four of them and I didn't see anyone else in the car -and I didn't think you could do it, and if I did at that time, why it -was maybe because I had talked to Mrs. Hunter previously about that, -because the car did come up there to the gate and they would make a -=U=-turn and go back down the way--back down that one way, and Mrs. -Hunter would notice it, where I wouldn't pay too much attention about -what happened every day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't recall whether he drove the car or not? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. It has been a long time and I don't recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell me yesterday or the day before yesterday -that you saw this car drive up in front and the man get out, and did it -appear to you that he was driving the car? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him get out of the car and come to the west door; -absolutely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the car did he get out from; do you -remember? - -Did you see anybody else in the car at all, besides this woman and the -two children? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention at that time that they were -in the car, you know, when they first drove up but I didn't know that -they come in the car and they had to get out of a car to come in there; -they wouldn't have walked up. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Why do you say they wouldn't have walked up there, Mrs. -Whitworth? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, they would have had to have lived pretty close -and around there and I had never seen them come in there before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, not until after all this happened--the -assassination and everything--and they lived pretty close around there. -I had never seen Mrs. Paine walk by there before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I asked them when all this happened and -everything. If they lived out where they did, it would have been too -far from my store to have walked up there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression at that time that they were -living together; isn't that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he told me they were living in an apartment, -and I asked him. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Living in an apartment? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I said, "You are living in an apartment," and -wanting to move out, you know, and he said, "Yes." So, I just assumed -when people come in wanting to buy furniture and they are going to need -some, that they are either in an apartment fixing to move out, or need -some--they are going to need some and they are fixing to move out, but -he wasn't quite ready then--he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically ask him or did he specifically tell -you that they were living in an apartment together? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I asked him--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that they were living in an apartment together? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have learned since that time that they weren't living -together; isn't that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall in talking to this lady if she had a tooth -missing in front? One or two teeth missing? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't recall that--all I noticed--she didn't even -utter a word--I didn't notice it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you remember if she had a tooth or two missing? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. You know me; you know me? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald has indicated to Mrs. Hunter that Mrs. Hunter -had said she remembered talking to Marina. Now, what about you, Mrs. -Hunter; do you remember whether she had any teeth missing? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't remember anything about her teeth because -she would have to almost move her lips, you know, if you didn't pay -close attention, now, that was just a very few seconds with her at -this station--very few. The only thing that I caught was right here -[indicating]. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, don't you think you would notice it if somebody had -a tooth out in front of their mouth? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Not necessarily, because I don't pay no attention to -nobody--only their eyes and their feet. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, did you at any time go with Lee and the children -when Lee had something with him wrapped in a brown sack that he took -into a store? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. It would be about this long [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating about how long? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say about 15 or 18 inches. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would have noticed if he had had an object with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, you testified that when this man -came in the store he did have an object with him about 15 inches long -wrapped in brown paper; isn't that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part -for a gun; isn't that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you know he had some part of the gun wrapped in this -package; didn't he? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part -for a gun; isn't that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that he had some part of the gun wrapped -in this package; isn't that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand that, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Even if he did, I would not have understood what he was -saying because I simply did not know the language, but I don't recall -him having any object in his hands such as that referred to here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At any time; is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No; at no time. - -Mr. McKENZIE. She is saying he went back to the car and got this part? - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were you saying, Mrs. Whitworth? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He went back to the car and took whatever he had in his -hand--he must have put it in the car, because I never noticed any more; -she came in, you know, but he came back in the store before she did, -because she followed him in and in the store--I don't see why that she -couldn't remember it, it's different, you know, from other stores that -you would go in where you bought soft goods. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say he brought this package into the store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. McKenzie, do you wish to inquire as to this package? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Whitworth, when this man whom you have identified as -Lee Harvey Oswald, whom you know now was Lee Harvey Oswald, from his -pictures in the paper, came into your store, you stated that he had a -package in his hand about 15 to 18 inches long; is that correct? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I saw him. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I say, you had seen that and stated that he had such a -package? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him; yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. How was the package wrapped? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Loosely in brown paper and you know, it didn't have any -strings on it, as far as I remember--it was loosely tied. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, was it a package in a bag? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he held it with one hand. - -Mr. McKENZIE. He held it with one hand? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did it look like a piece of pipe or did it look like a -gun stock, or did it look like a piece of wood or what did it look like -that was in the package? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. How big around was the package? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't large--I'd say it might have been this big -[indicating]. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You are making a sign with your hands there, with both -hands---- - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. What is that--about 2 or 3 inches in diameter? - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. And then it was some 15 or 18 inches long. - -Mr. McKENZIE. So, the package that he had was 2 or 3 inches in diameter -and approximately 18 inches long; is that right? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen to 18 inches long. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right. - -Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say to you when he came into the store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He asked me if I had this particular part, some -particular part, but not knowing about guns, I didn't have it. I don't -remember it, you know, what he asked for. - -Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, if you will, state for -the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked me if I had this part, whatever it was, -pertaining to a gun. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And what part was it? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know--because I don't know anything about guns. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Can you state it in his words? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I cannot. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just -what your recollection is of what he said? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say to you then--give us your best -recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask a question, if I may. Mrs. Whitworth, isn't -it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store -shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for; -a Miss Campbell or Mrs. Campbell? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. Mrs. Hunter and I discussed it -afterwards, and I think that she might know more about guns and she -said it was a plunger, but I'm not sure--I might have told them that I -thought it was a plunger, but I don't remember. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And you did not tell the reporter what you thought it -was; is that right? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't--I don't believe I ever made the statement -that I knew exactly what it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a -plunger; isn't that a fact? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe Mrs. Hunter said that. She talked to the same -reporter--I don't know what it was, because I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter make a tape recording of the -conversation? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. The reporter made a tape recording of my -conversation--part of it, I would say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was -to be used with or for? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; because I didn't ask him. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you -know, that part. He came in because I had a gunsmith sign on the street -and there had been one there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that he came in because you had a -gunsmith sign on the door? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I presume that because he asked for a gun part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what part did he ask for? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know it was a part for a gun? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I just knew it was--whatever he asked for was, -you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, I don't know. -I didn't pay that much attention to it because I had people coming in -every day asking for something for a gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you it was a part for a gun? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I knew that it was at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that it was? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. That it was? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention guns? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it--when -I told him I didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was -no longer there and when I told him we no longer had a gunsmith we -didn't talk about what he wanted any more. - -Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, and that's based on -your conversation with Mrs. Hunter, the part that he asked for was a -plunger? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, to the best of my recollection it was, but I -wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for -as being a part of a gun? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. He didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he, -or did he? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked in such a way that I knew he was seeking -the gun shop and not the furniture store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was the word "gun" ever used? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was, because I told him the gunsmith had moved. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say then, please, ma'am? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He turned around and he looked at me. He was standing -practically in the front or in the middle of the store and he turned -and I had furniture all around me--dinette suites over on this side and -there was living room furniture to this side, and in front of him there -was living room furniture and bedroom furniture and he said, "You have -furniture?" I said, "Yes." - -He said, "I'm going to need some in about 2 weeks," and I said, "All -right, I'll be glad to show you some." - -He turns and walks out the door that he came in and took whatever he -had in his hand back in the car and that's when Mrs. Oswald followed -him back in and he got back in the store before she did. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did you hear them talking together? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never did hear her utter one word. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did he say anything to her? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He never said anything to her other than he might have -glanced at her and I thought that they were exchanging glances, you -know. She didn't utter a word. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't utter a word to her? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not to her--but to me. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, he said he was going to need some furniture in -approximately 2 weeks? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did you ask him where he was living? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him if he was living at an apartment and he -said, "Yes." - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where he was moving to? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he hadn't got that place yet. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ask you if you delivered? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; we didn't get that far along. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I see. He didn't like the piece of furniture that you -showed to him, is that it? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably didn't have what he was looking for. We -talked about not having it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, in any event, he didn't seek to buy any of the -furniture that you showed him? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did he state what he was looking for, did he tell you -what he was looking for? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him what kind of furniture that he was looking, -and I suggested furnitures to him if he bought new furniture. I said, -"Do you like Early American, or do you like Danish Modern?" And we -exchanged those words and he never uttered what he liked or anything. -He didn't say what he liked. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, there had been a gun shop in that -particular location before you moved in with your furniture store? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I leased one corner of my store to a gunsmith. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And what was his name? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. His name was Warren Graves. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still operate a gun shop? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he doesn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live in the Irving area? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He still lives in Irving. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Had you had any previous experience with guns? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Other than just seeing guns in that little corner of -the building, it seems like, and you know, hearing conversations on -guns, but I knew nothing about guns. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, did you know anything about the various -nomenclature or the various parts of a gun? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. - -Mr. McKENZIE. But you did recognize that a plunger was a part of a gun -when this man came in? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, in the way that he asked for it, I knew that it -was a gun part that he wanted because I didn't have it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. In what way did he ask for it, explain what you mean by -that? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. As well as I can remember, I told him we didn't have a -gunsmith and he asked for this part and I don't remember really just -what he asked for, but whatever it was, it led me to know that he -wanted a gunsmith, which we didn't have. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Were you in the front of the store when he came in? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I was in the cash stand. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Was Mrs. Hunter still sitting there on the platform chair? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was sitting there in the front. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And how far away was she from you when he came in? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I was behind the stand, which I guess that was probably -4 or 5 feet in squares and I would have had to have gotten out of the -stand and walked clear around and Mrs. Hunter, I imagine, was probably -8 feet from me. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Was she as close to you as I am now--just directly -across, I mean? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. About the same distance that we are apart now? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a counter between us. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And we are about 8 feet apart now, aren't we? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. When the man came in, was there anyone else in the store -other than Mrs. Hunter and yourself? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't believe there was anyone in the store but Mrs. -Hunter and myself. Now, there was probably someone on the outside. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, if I may direct this question to Mrs. Hunter; Mrs. -Hunter, do you recall any of the conversation that you heard Mrs. -Whitworth testify about this morning? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when he drove up in the car and I thought it was my -friends from Houston and when I seen it wasn't, I sat back down in the -chair and he went down to the door on that end of the building and went -in and he asked her, he says, "Where is your gunsmith?" - -I remember that and he had something--I won't say just what it was, -because I wasn't particularly interested. I wasn't in her being down -there at the time. She told him that the gunsmith was moved--that he -wasn't there, and she showed him down the street where to go to. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it was back down east on -Irving Boulevard. - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a gunsmith or a sports shop or something back -down there. - -Mrs. HUNTER. There was a sport shop down there where she showed him to -go. I remember that much of it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You said this man got out of the car and came to the -other door, the door back to the back? - -Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came to the west door. - -Mrs. HUNTER. I believe if I could draw a picture of it I could explain -it better that way. - -[The witness proceeded to draw while testifying.] There's a partition -right here and there are table and chairs right back in here, and over -here is where her telephone is and where her table and there's a little -counter right back in here, right back down this way, and right back -here was the gunsmith where he had that leased, and all of this back -here was furniture and this partition over here--these little tables -and chairs over here--that looked kinda like a cafe where you would -sit, at the tables and all. Over here, all there was was used clothes -and things. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Where is the door? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Now, this is a door where I was sitting in the chair right -here looking out and he come in by this door right over here and come -up to where her counter was. I was sitting right here in the chair and -she comes back out here and looks down this way and showed him which -way to go to where this gunsmith was and when he goes back to the -car and put what he had in his hand--he went back to the car for the -purpose of that, and when he come back in, he come back in this way. -When she got out with the children, she come in this door right here -that I had got up and opened after I sat down there. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That would be the east door? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, yes; I guess so, and she walked on around and I just -sat back down and I didn't pay her any attention or anything and they -had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in -here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and -she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that, -and that is the only thing that I heard the woman say. - -Well, he goes back and goes back and gets in the car and she followed -him out--she put the little girl in the car, then she got in the car, -and he didn't offer to help her no way putting the babies in the car -and he was talking to her and looking back down this way and he turned -and when he pointed, I said, "You can't go back down that way, it's a -one way street. You will have to go up here to the red light and turn -to your left and come back around." - -Mr. McKENZIE. When you told him that, where were you standing? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing right in this door here. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Right at the curb? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No; the car was--let's say it was about like this, because -there is a porch or a thing with a top over it, you know, and he -catercornered down this way and I was right over here [indicating]. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time when you were standing in the doorway -and he had gotten in the car and you told him he could not go that way, -where was Mrs. Oswald sitting? - -Mrs. HUNTER. She was in the car by him and the little girl was standing -up in the seat between them and she had the tiny baby in her hands. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And was it a two-door automobile or a four-door -automobile? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say as to that, but I believe it was a -two-door, but I wouldn't swear to it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And he was behind the wheel? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And she was sitting next to him? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. With the child between them? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And there was no one else in the car other than the baby? - -Mrs. HUNTER. If it was, they was down in the floorboard of the car and -when he started out, he pulled out back that way, and I said, "Don't -go back that way, it's a one-way street." I said, "Go down to the red -light." - -Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say then? - -Mrs. HUNTER. He didn't say anything; he didn't thank me nor nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But from where you were standing you could see him drive -the automobile out into Irving Boulevard, going down to the next red -light where he made a turn and drove out of sight; isn't that right? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he went down Irving Boulevard--I told him to go to -the red light, but she wasn't interested in what he was going to buy at -all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west? - -Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was driving the right way down the street? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could this car have been an Oldsmobile? - -Mrs. HUNTER. No, sir; it was a Ford--it was just like the one that my -friends had in Houston. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a foreign car of any kind? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Ford? - -Mrs. HUNTER. It was a 1957--I think it was a 1957 Ford instead of a -1958. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Blue and white? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Blue and white--yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Blue on the bottom and white on the top? - -Mrs. HUNTER. Yes, sir; I think I've got a picture of the car that my -friends--the one that I was waiting for. Could I ask her a question? - -[Addressing Marina Oswald.] Don't you have a rinse on your hair now? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. A rinse--yes. My hair is dark--not too dark. - -Mrs. HUNTER. A dirty blonde. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, thank you. - -Mrs. HUNTER. Like his [indicating Mr. Liebeler]. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. Mrs. Whitworth, we -certainly do thank you and Mrs. Hunter, we certainly do thank you very -much. - -Mrs. HUNTER. How soon are you going to be through with us--the reason -I want to know--I am going to be out of town next week. [Addressing -Marina Oswald.] It's nice I met you in person now and your babies are -very sweet. - -(At this point Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter left the hearing room.) - -Mr. McKENZIE. Marina, do you remember a blue and white car? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--what kind of car did Mrs. Paine have? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what kind of car Mr. Paine had? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't. - -Mr. McKENZIE. What kind of car did Mrs. Paine have? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that either, but all the time Mrs. Paine, -she take me to the store. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gregory, what do you do in Fort Worth? - -Mr. GREGORY. I am a petroleum engineer. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And are you on your own over there? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, half of my time is my own and the other half of my -time is with a company on salary, and I am chairman of an engineering -committee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you have previously testified, Marina, that -the only time Lee came up to the Paine's, except on the weekends, in -Irving, was on Thursday night, November 21, 1963? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the 5th or -the 3d of November or September? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I was trying to figure out what day in the week -that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this -store--it would be Wednesday or Thursday, but Lee was never in Irving -on Wednesday or Thursday at any time; is that right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time when he came to see me the night before the -assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask Mrs. Paine. You -know, if he has a job--maybe--he don't have a job then? - -Mr. McKENZIE. At the time when he didn't have a job, did he come? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. November he had a job. - -Mr. McKENZIE. But when he didn't have a job, did he come out there -during the week other than weekends. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 2 days on one occasion during the week when he -had no job. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. He had job at that time in November. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, before Rachel was born, did he come during the week? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I remember that only once he came--only once before -Rachel was born during the week. - -Mr. McKENZIE. After Rachel was born at Parkland Hospital, did he come -during the week up until the time he got a job? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't come to Irving during the week at any time -after Rachel was born, as a matter of fact, except on Thursday night? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Rachel was born either Saturday night or Sunday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. October the 20th? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. When Rachel was born? - -Mr. GREGORY. She wants to say what day of the week--it was either the -19th or 20th of October, but she wants to know the day of the week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. He was at home the weekend before Rachel was born. He -sent me to the hospital Sunday night at 9 o'clock. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he go working the next morning and he come to see -Ruth Paine and she take him to the hospital to see me and baby and he -spent the night in her house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What day did Lee come to see you in the hospital, do you -remember? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Monday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And on Monday night he stayed at Ruth Paine's house; is -that right? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then you went home the next morning? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; to Ruth Paine's. Lee was at work and Ruth Paine take -me from the hospital. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You were in the hospital Sunday, Monday, and left Tuesday? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I was just Sunday night--I was one and a half -days--34 hours or 36 hours or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, that on Monday, October 21, Lee came to Irving after -work? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And came to the hospital to see you with Mrs. Paine? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And stayed at Mrs. Paine's house that night and went back -to work on Tuesday morning? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he did not come to the hospital at any other time or -to take you home; is that right? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After Rachel was born and after Lee had been there on -Monday to see you, did he come back to Irving at any time during the -week except the night before the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No; he came to Irving only the weekends--only on weekends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, before the time that Rachel was born, you said that -he came to Irving during the week and spent 2 days before he got his -job; was that just after he came back from Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 1 day in Irving after he came back from Mexico, -and the following day he went to look for work and he was looking for -work all week long and returned to Irving on Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come to work during the week at any time after he -got his job and up until Rachel was born, except on weekends? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember--not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's take a short recess for lunch, and we will resume -at 1:30 p.m. - -(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED - -The proceeding was reconvened at 1:50 p.m. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You previously told the Commission that Lee Oswald -prepared a notebook in which he kept plans and notes about his attack -on General Walker; is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I saw this book only after the attempt on Walker's life. -He burned it or disposed of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when you first saw the notebook? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after this happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the notebook 3 days after it had happened? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to see it then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When he was destroying it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only time you ever saw it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I saw on several occasions that he was writing something -in the book, but he was hiding it from me and he was locking it in his -room. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually lock the door to his room when he left -the apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The door to his room could be locked only from the inside -and he was locking the door when he was writing in the book, otherwise, -he was hiding it in some secret place and he warned me not to mess -around and look around his things. He asked me not to go into his room -and look around. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him writing in this book before the night that he -shot at General Walker? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Not before the night. - -Mr. McKENZIE. After? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; not before--1 month before, but not every day, you -know, sometimes. I saw him writing on several occasions in that book -prior to the attempt on Walker's life, only I did not know what he was -writing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you could have gone into this room to look at -the book, you did not do so, because Lee had told you not to; is that -correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he forbade me looking around in his room, and so I -did not see the book or look at it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But 3 days after he shot at General Walker, you saw him -destroy the book; is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did he destroy it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the apartment house on Neeley. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where in the apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it with matches over a wash bowl in the bathroom. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you first became aware of this when you smelled it -burning; is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see the book, but I saw him writing in this book -several times, but after he burns the book he told me what was in that -book and he showed me several photographs. Before he burned the book, -he showed me several photographs that were in the book. I asked him -what the pictures were and he said, "Well, this one is the picture of -the house of General Walker's--his residence." - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture was pasted in the notebook; is that -right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No; it was loose in the book--I really don't remember. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Establish what kind of book it was and the size of it. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. The size--it looked like this size of paper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was a book something like the reporter is using? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; a legal size paper--it was a legal size -notebook--this size. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, the notebook was about the same size as a legal size -pad; is that right? - -*Mrs. OSWALD [nodding head for an affirmative reply]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Lee when you saw him destroying -this book about why he prepared it and why he left it there in the -apartment when he went to shoot General Walker? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not. No; I never asked him why he left it in the -apartment, why he left his book in the apartment while he went to shoot -General Walker. I did not ask him why he left it in the apartment. I -asked him what for was he making all these entries in the book and he -answered that he wanted to leave a complete record so that all the -details would be in it. He told me that these entries consisted of -the description of the house of General Walker, the distances, the -location, and the distribution of windows in it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he want to leave this record for? - -Mrs. OSWALD. All these details--all these records, that he was writing -it either for his own use so that he would know what to do when the -time came to shoot General Walker. I am guessing that perhaps he did it -to appear to be a brave man in case he were arrested, but that is my -supposition. I was so afraid after this attempt on Walker's life that -the police might come to the house. I was afraid that there would be -evidence in the house such as this book. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Lee about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I say? - -Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did he say? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Both. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that it is best not to have this kind of stuff -in the house--this book. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you tell him that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At the time he was destroying it--he showed me this book -after this attempt on Walker's life, and I suggested to him that it -would be awfully bad to keep a thing like that in the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first show it to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after the attempt--3 days after this attempt, -he took the rifle from the house, took it somewhere and buried it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Three days after the attempt? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that he actually took the rifle out of the house and -took it away and hid it somewhere? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle -because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker -and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on -Wednesday. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday. - -Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when -Lee brought the rifle back home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle -back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy -he book? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he -brought the rifle home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After he brought the rifle home, then, he showed you the -book? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was not a good idea to keep this book? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then he burned the book? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he had not destroyed the book before -he actually went to shoot General Walker? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It never came to me, myself, to ask him that question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him take the pictures, the photographs, out -of the book when he destroyed it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When I saw him burning the book--I'm not positive that he -burned the photographs or not with the book. He retained the negatives -and he preserved either the photographs themselves or the negatives. I -know that they have the photographs and I don't know whether they got -the originals or whether they made them from the negatives. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, when you say "they," Marina, who do you mean by -"they?" - -Mrs. OSWALD. FBI, Secret Service, and the President's Commission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 5, which is a copy of -one of the photographs that was found among these effects after the -assassination. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does that appear to be one of the photographs about which -you were speaking? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure about that? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember when Lee showed me the picture that -it was this. - -Mrs. OSWALD. When I was first shown this picture, I remember that there -was a license plate number on this car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee showed you the picture, there was a license -plate number on the car? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As shown in Commission Exhibit No. 5; is that right? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you look at this picture you see that there is a -black mark on the back of this, do you know what makes that black mark? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; but I think when the Commission showed me this -picture the number was there. - -Mr. McKENZIE. License plate? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would have remembered this black spot if it were there -at the time the Commission showed me this, or the FBI. When the FBI -first showed me this photograph I remember that the license plate, the -number of the license plate was on this car, was on the photograph. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. It had the white and black numbers. There was no black -spot that I see on it now. When Lee showed me this photograph there -was the number on the license plate on this picture. I would have -remembered it if there were a black spot on the back of the car where -the license plate would be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The original of this picture, the actual photograph, has -a hole through it. That's what makes this black spot. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the negative? - -Mr. GREGORY. This picture was made from the original photograph, rather -than from a negative? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it's simply a picture of a picture. - -Mrs. OSWALD. When the FBI and Lee showed me this particular picture---- - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Not this big size. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This photograph--it was a smaller size. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. There was a license plate on this car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that very clearly? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee showed it to me, I remember very distinctly that -there was a license plate on this car. When this business about General -Walker came up I would have remembered this black spot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or the hole? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Or the hole in the original--I would have remembered it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember, then, that the license plate was -actually on that car when you saw the picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This black spot is so striking I would have remembered it -if it were on the photograph that Lee showed me or the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot -but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original -photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right -through the photograph. - -Mrs. OSWALD. There was no hole in the original when they showed it to -me--I'm positive of it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right, let me ask her a question. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first time I saw a black spot or have heard -about a hole in the original photograph. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Why does the Commission not ask me about this? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, the Commission is asking you about it now, because -Mr. Liebeler represents the Commission. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you--when Lee showed you this picture, which -is Commission Exhibit No. 5, had it been folded over? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did the car that appears in the picture, did -it have a hole in the picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. When the FBI or the Secret Service showed you this -picture, had it been folded? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Who showed you the picture--the FBI or the Secret Service -or the Commission? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI first and then the Commission. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at the time the Commission showed you the picture -in Washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the car's -license plate would be? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened to this picture, because -when the Commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here. - -Mrs. OSWALD. If there was a hole, I would have asked them right away -why that hole is there or the black spot. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record, please. - -(Discussion between Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Liebeler to the effect that -the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print -from the original photograph.) - -Mr. McKENZIE. One more question--is this the first time that you -have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the -automobile? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; the first time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in -it? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think of anything else about this Walker incident -that you haven't already told the Commission that you think we should -know that you can remember? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think I have told all I know about it--I can't remember -anything else now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time, Marina, that -Lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in -a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at General Walker he -left all that incriminating evidence right in the house so that if he -had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been -found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at -General Walker? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for -what he did. I had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised -me. He may have wished to appear such a brave man or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be -caught in connection with the Walker affair? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. I -couldn't read his mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the picture that he asked you to take -when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then -autographed for June, do you think that was connected with the Walker -thing at all? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, because it happened just before he went to -shoot General Walker. Then, I asked him why he was taking this silly -picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the -newspaper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Militant? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. The Militant. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't attach any significance to what he said at the -time, but he added, "That maybe some day June will remember me." He -must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told the Commission that in November 1962, you stayed -with Anna Meller and with Mrs. Ford for 2 weeks? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 1 week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One week with each person? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I think maybe I was 3 days at Anna Meller's house--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think you were with them altogether? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. One week or 10 days. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you also told us that you went to Anna Meller's in a -taxicab? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you separated from Lee at any other time in the fall -of 1962 except this time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The only time I was separated from Lee, not because we -quarreled, but because I lived with Elena Hall in Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went to Anna Meller's one night in a taxicab? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you bring any of the things for the baby, the -furniture or your clothes or things like that to Anna Meller's? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At no time? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just take baby and bottle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the next day, did you get anything over to the -Meller's house the next day? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No; after a couple of days Anna Meller went and bought -some diapers for the baby, then, I wanted to take my things away from -Lee and George De Mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the -things from the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you take the things then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. To Anna Meller's house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay at Anna Meller's house before -Mohrenschildt brought the things there? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And how long did you stay at Anna Meller's after De -Mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to Mrs. -Ford's? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Two more days. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When De Mohrenschildt came and took these things, they -filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? There were quite a lot of -things? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take these things from Anna Meller's over to the -Fords' house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Only the bare necessities. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do with the other things that you had -brought to Anna Meller's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They remained at Anna Meller's. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who took the things from Meller's to Ford's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it George De Mohrenschildt? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day it was that De Mohrenschildt -moved these things for you, what day of the week? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The weekend--probably Sunday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you first go to Anna Meller's; do you -remember? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. About 4 days before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee know where you went the night you left him? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first find out where you were? - -Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt knew that I was at Anna Meller's -and he telephoned Lee, but he did not tell Lee where I was. He asked -him to come to his house where I would also be at the time so that we -could discuss the things. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The day you went to take the things to Anna Meller's, De -Mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with him? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. His wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you with him? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De -Mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And got these other things? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And left? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there when you came? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the three of you came to the apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing happened except he was very angry and I took -things. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not want me to leave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was collecting things, so I don't know what -transpired--I was busy. Lee was helping me to gather the things, -because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee first said that he was going to -tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went -away? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; maybe that's George De Mohrenschildt's joke. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's what George De Mohrenschildt told the Commission. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt. I do not -know whether Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt or not. I was -busy gathering the things. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there appear to be an argument or a discussion -between Lee and De Mohrenschildt at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so--perhaps they were speaking -together--talking English and I didn't understand them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How would they usually talk to each other--in Russian or -in English? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Both Russian and English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did George Bouhe have anything to do with your leaving -Lee this time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe told me that if I wanted to leave Lee, he -would help me at first, provided I would not go back to Lee. Bouhe did -not interfere into my and Lee's affairs, but he wanted to know if I -wanted to leave him permanently, he would help me. He told me that if I -wanted to leave him for good, then he would help me out, but not if I -would go back to him because the second time nobody would help me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, you did later go back to Lee; didn't you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he's my husband. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it is also a fact that when you did, George Bouhe was -displeased--unhappy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact he even asked you to give back to him the -dictionary that he had given you; didn't he? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he helped you no more after that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt recalls this Sunday morning -differently--he said that he came there with his wife and that you -were still at the apartment with Lee, and that he and his wife came in -and told Lee that they were going to take you away because he had been -beating you in the past, and that he convinced you to leave and that -you all left then that Sunday morning and he took you over to Meller's. -He does not say you had previously gone to Meller's. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That's not so. I was not at the apartment with Lee. I -came that Sunday with the De Mohrenschildts to the apartment. I was at -Anna Meller's and George De Mohrenschildt told me to be at his house -at a certain hour, 10 o'clock, or sometime, and that Lee will come to -his house, and Anna Meller took me. George Bouhe came to Anna Meller's -and took me to George De Mohrenschildt's house and Lee came to De -Mohrenschildt's house in a bus. Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house on -a bus. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That same Sunday. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Later in the day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ten o'clock or eleven. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And before you went to the apartment? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De -Mohrenschildt go to the apartment together in George De Mohrenschildt's -car? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember right now whether Lee left after this -confrontation at De Mohrenschildt's house, whether Lee left first -or whether we all left De Mohrenschildt's house together, but I do -remember distinctly that I went in the car with George De Mohrenschildt -and his wife. I did not go with Lee and so it is impossible that they -came later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened at De Mohrenschildt's house this -morning--what was said there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt was telling Lee that that was not the way -to treat his wife and Lee begged me to stay with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's wife there at this time? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did the meeting at De Mohrenschildt's house end; do -you remember? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I did not agree to go back with Lee and either Lee left by -the bus first, or, I don't remember it clearly what happened. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened--I don't remember if Lee -goes with us or if he goes first. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that Lee was at the apartment on -Elsbeth Street when you went there to get the clothes and things for -the baby? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you came there, did he just help you load the things -up? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be angry about anything? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was angry. That's why he helped me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to go back to Lee, and that was when he -came out to Anna Ray's and met you there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me several times begging me to return and he -came to Anna Ray's and he cried and you know a woman's heart--I went -back to him. He said he didn't care to live if I did not return. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who paid the taxi fare when you went over to Anna -Meller's the first time? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. The first time--Anna Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that some time in the -spring of 1963, you, yourself, either threatened to or actually tried -to commit suicide. Can you tell us about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Do I have the right now not to discuss that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't want to discuss that, certainly, but I -really would like to have Lee's reaction to the whole thing. But if you -don't want to tell us about it--all right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. At my attempt at suicide, Lee struck me in the face and -told me to go to bed and that I should never attempt to do that--only -foolish people would do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you were going to do it, or did you -actually try? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't tell him, but I tried. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't want to discuss it any further? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of Lee's diary? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes;--I have that now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a copy of the diary before it was printed in -the Dallas Morning News? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You might also ask her if I had a copy of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. McKenzie had a copy of the -diary? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--ask him. I don't know what you have in your -office--I'm sorry. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Let the record show that Mr. McKenzie does not have a -copy of the diary, and that Mrs. Oswald states she did not have a copy -of the diary prior to its being published by the Dallas Morning News, -and for the purposes of the record the Life magazine and Time, Inc., -first gave me a copy of the diary, and I in turn furnished a copy of -the diary to Mrs. Oswald from the copy that was given to me by Time, -Inc. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, that now, you do have a copy of the diary; is this -correct? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it was given to you by Mr. McKenzie after he got it -from Time-Life, Inc.? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make an arrangement with Life magazine to give -them permission to publish the diary? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; after it has been published in the newspapers. I, -myself, would not have been willing for it to be published in the first -place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Life magazine pay you anything for the privilege of -publishing the diary? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; $20,000. I would like to know where the Dallas -Morning News got the diary. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I can tell you this much, Mrs. Oswald, that the Dallas -Morning News did not get a copy of the diary from the Commission. Other -than that, I can't say anything. - -Mrs. OSWALD. If it is possible, I would like to determine where they -got it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you enter into this arrangement with Life -magazine and how did it come about, Mrs. Oswald; will you tell us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what day---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. It was after it was published in the Dallas Morning News. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in stating that the transaction was -negotiated between representatives of Life magazine and your attorney, -Mr. William A. McKenzie? An attorney here in Dallas? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I have a couple of questions. Marina, there is a -difference, is there not, in your mind between a Marxist and a -Communist? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. What? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I never was interested in this so I don't know--it makes -me no difference. - -Mr. McKENZIE. A Communist ordinarily is known as a party member; is -that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A Communist does not necessarily have to be a member of -the party. People that believe in communism do not necessarily have a -party card. The fact is that a Communist is not necessarily a member of -the party. He may be a Communist by his choice but not necessarily a -member of the party. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Lee was a Marxist by his choice; is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he thought. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That's all. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was just a sick person. He didn't know himself -what he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald, as we discussed this morning, we want to go -out to Irving and all look at the store and see if it refreshes your -recollection as to whether or not you were there, so at this time we -will adjourn the deposition, to be resumed out at the location of this -store in Irving, if that is agreeable with counsel for Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It is agreeable. - -(At this point the proceedings of this deposition were adjourned and -Messrs. Liebeler and McKenzie, Marina Oswald, the Reporter, Odell -Oliver, and Secret Service Agents John Joe Howlett and Forrest Sorrels -in charge of the Dallas Secret Service office traveled to Irving, -walked through the store heretofore referred to, departed the same and -while standing in front of the store the following proceedings were -had:) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we are resuming the deposition -in front of 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., and the record -will indicate that Mr. McKenzie and Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. -Howlett, the Court Reporter and I walked inside of the building here -at 149 East Irving Boulevard and walked around inside and outside, -and this is at 3:45 p.m., in an effort to refresh Mrs. Oswald's -recollection as to whether or not she has ever been in this store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had a chance to go through the store, Marina? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this is the first time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the first time you have been here? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have now looked at the outside of the store and -looked through the inside? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are quite sure you have never been here before? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sure I never was here before--I am quite sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you -heard this morning from Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter; is that right? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's right. She told how I was dressed with a rose -jacket--that's true I had a rose jacket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She may have seen you somewhere? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I never was here--maybe she saw me on the street -somewhere. She said it looked like she saw me someplace else and that's -the reason why I wanted to see this store, but maybe I have forgotten -by now---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at -149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie? - -Mr. McKENZIE. No. - -*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't -recall it now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever -been before? - -*Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the -deposition. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MAJ. EUGENE D. ANDERSON - -The testimony of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson was taken at 4:30 p.m., on -July 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. -J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of -the President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this is a deposition proceeding -of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President -Kennedy, and that our witnesses today are Maj. Eugene D. Anderson and -M. Sgt. James A. Zahm of the U.S. Marine Corps who have been asked to -testify about their knowledge of the capabilities of a marksman using a -rifle with a scope. - -With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand, Major -Anderson and raise your right hand please. Do you solemnly swear that -the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this -deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Major ANDERSON. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state you full name for the record please. - -Major ANDERSON. Eugene D. Anderson. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, sir? - -Major ANDERSON. I am a major in the U.S. Marine Corps. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in the Marine Corps. - -Major ANDERSON. Twenty-six years 3 months. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of what do your current duties consist? - -Major ANDERSON. I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, -Headquarters Marine Corps. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where is your current duty station? - -Major ANDERSON. In Navy Annex, Headquarters Marine Corps, Washington, -D.C. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you held that position? - -Major ANDERSON. I have been stationed here for 2 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your qualifications, if any, in -marksmanship? - -Major ANDERSON. I have been working in marksmanship training for -approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine -Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the qualifications or tests -which must be achieved in order to qualify as a distinguished shot? - -Major ANDERSON. A man must have acquired a minimum of 30 points from -winning medals in certain specified high-caliber matches. To win -these points he must have placed among the top 10 percent of the -nondistinguished shooters participating in the match. By winning a gold -medal he can earn 10 points. By winning a silver medal he can earn -eight points. By winning a bronze medal he can win six points. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what qualifications must be displayed to obtain the -classification as master of the National Rifle Association of America? - -Major ANDERSON. You have to fire in a minimum number of National Rifle -Association sponsored matches. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Major ANDERSON. I want to correct the record. - -Mr. SPECTER. Proceed to do so. - -Major ANDERSON. I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle -Association. I am not classified with the rifle. - -Mr. SPECTER. And does your classification as a distinguished marksman -apply to the rifle? - -Major ANDERSON. To the rifle, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a document which has heretofore been -introduced into evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 239. - -Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you have heretofore had an opportunity to -examine that document? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you describe for the record what that document -is, please? - -Major ANDERSON. This is a U.S. rifle, caliber 30, M-1 and U.S. carbine, -caliber 30, M-1-A1 record scorebook that is maintained by a shooter -who is training for firing for qualification or requalification in the -Marine Corps. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that a standard record scorebook which the Marine Corps -makes available to every Marine who shoots under those circumstances? - -Major ANDERSON. It was standard at the time of issuance of this -particular book. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was that time? - -Major ANDERSON. In December 1956. - -Mr. SPECTER. And does the name of any specific Marine appear on the -front page of that document? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes; Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are there any initials? - -Major ANDERSON. It appears to be "L. H." - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the marksmanship training, if any, which -a Marine recruit receives in the normal course of Marine training? - -Major ANDERSON. He goes through a very intensive 3 weeks' training -period. During this 3 weeks for the first week he receives a basic -training in the care and cleaning of the weapon. He learns sighting and -aiming. He learns manipulation of the trigger. - -He is exposed to various training aids. He goes through a series of -exercises in what we call dry firing in which he assumes all of the -positions that he is going to use in the full firing of the rifle over -the qualification course. Normally in about the middle of the second -week or the latter part of the second week he conducts some firing with -a .22 rifle and .22 pistol to familiarize himself with live ammunition -and to give the coaches an opportunity to check on his previous -training. He then proceeds to the rifle range and he zeros the rifle in -normally at 200 yards. - -This consists of a few rounds being fired at a target, and the sights -are changed so that at this particular range, either 200 or 300 yards, -this rifle will strike the bull's-eye at the sight setting so indicated -when there is no wind blowing and all the conditions for firing are -ideal. - -Then the following week he goes out to the range and he fires over the -course completely, consisting of firing at 200, 300, and 500 yards. He -will normally fire possibly 60 rounds the first day, which is 10 rounds -over the required amount to fire the course. This firing is normally -done at 200 yards. The following days, possibly the second or third day -he may fire as much as 70 rounds each day, giving him an opportunity to -acquire more practice with the gun, and to get a better opportunity to -find out the zero of his weapon and where the strike of his bullet is -going to be under any given circumstances. - -Then on Thursday he will fire preliminary day, in which he will fire -over the course one time under all circumstances exactly as he will do -the following day for record day, except that on preliminary day he is -allowed to have a coach on the range with him on the firing line to -assist him in all phases. - -The following day on record day, he fires over the course 50 rounds -for his qualification score record. At this time the coach may give -him any assistance possible as long as he is behind the firing line. -Once he steps onto the firing line, assumes the firing position, then -he is completely on his own. He cannot be helped by any gestures or -comments or in any way given any assistance from anyone whatsoever. He -completes this firing and the score that he attains then becomes his -qualification score. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that training program in effect during 1956? - -Major ANDERSON. With some possible minor deviations, yes. Generally -speaking this is exactly what he would have done in 1956. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that training then necessarily have preceded the -compilation of a marksmanship test as is reflected in the document -which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 239? - -Major ANDERSON. I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean? - -Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps I can rephrase it. Would your presumption be that -L. H. Oswald, whose test score you have before you, would have received -the training such as that which you have just described? - -Major ANDERSON. Absolutely. He fired every day according to this. The -only exception might be that if he was required to go to the sick bay -for some minor treatment, and missed maybe an hour a day or some sort -of thing such as that. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the basis for your statement on that would be your -conclusion based on the fact that L. H. Oswald had undergone a test -where he completed these documents under the category of "US Marine -Corps Scorebook for US Rifle Caliber .30 M-1 and US Carbine Caliber .30 -M-1-A1?" - -Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; this document shows by dates and days as -indicated that he fired daily and sighted in his rifle as prescribed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of course, you didn't know Mr. Oswald personally? - -Major ANDERSON. I never knew him whatsoever. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that your conclusion as to his training is based upon -the inference which arises from the document which I have presented -to you. That is to say, you know that if a man has one of those -scorebooks, that he must have received that training? - -Major ANDERSON. Absolutely. He received this in full. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that document have some record of practicing as well -as actual scoring in it, Major Anderson? - -Major ANDERSON. This record shows that on Thursday of the week -preceding the record firing week, he fired approximately 10 rounds -which were not scored, appear to be zeroing in shots. There is no day -here to indicate any firing on Friday. Monday is shown of the following -week with a 10 shot group, and shows that he fires the entire course on -Monday throughout. - -Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, I now show you a letter which I have -marked for the purpose of this deposition as Anderson Exhibit No. 1, -and ask you for the record to tell us what is the date of that letter, -first of all? - -Major ANDERSON. 8 January 1964. - -(Major Anderson Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. To whom is the letter addressed? - -Major ANDERSON. Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, President's -Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was the letter written? - -Major ANDERSON. The signature shows it was from A. G. Folsom, Jr., -lieutenant colonel, U.S. Marine Corps. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity heretofore to examine that -letter? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And whom does that letter concern itself with? - -Major ANDERSON. The letter concerns a Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes; Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that letter contain with it the marksmanship practice -which Mr. Oswald had while in the Marine Corps? - -Major ANDERSON. It so indicates; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the procedure of the Marine Corps in retaining -such information on men who were in the Corps and had marksmanship -training? - -Major ANDERSON. Any time a man goes through any type of live firing, -the type of firing, the number of rounds he has fired, the course he -has fired is supposed to be and supposedly is entered in his record -book in the spaces provided for his training? - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by live firing, sir? - -Major ANDERSON. By live firing I mean any time a live round of -ammunition is actually placed in the gun and it is fired. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that distinguished from some other type of firing, or -heavy firing? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes; it is distinguished from what we call dry firing -in that no ammunition is used whatsoever. A man just simulates that he -is firing the gun. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that letter set forth the marksmanship practice which -Mr. Oswald had in the Marine Corps? - -Major ANDERSON. It does; yes. It shows that he had the course A firing -and followed by "fam" firing in the B course. - -Mr. SPECTER. By "fam" firing, what does that mean? - -Major ANDERSON. This is sharp terminology for familiarization firing -and it is used to familiarize a man with the weapon prior to his being -armed with said weapon. - -Mr. SPECTER. And on what date was the A course registered? - -Major ANDERSON. 21 December 1956. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what weapon was used? - -Major ANDERSON. The M-1 rifle. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was his final qualification there? - -Major ANDERSON. 212. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what rating is that equivalent to, or within what -range of rating is that score? - -Major ANDERSON. That should have been a sharpshooter. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the authorized ammunition allowance? - -Major ANDERSON. 400 rounds for recruit firing. - -Mr. SPECTER. And during what period was that? - -Major ANDERSON. That was to be fired within a 2-week period. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he have exposure on another course for M-1 firing at a -later date? - -Major ANDERSON. The record shows that 6 May 1959 he fired the B course. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what weapon was used at that time? - -Major ANDERSON. The M-1 rifle. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what score was obtained on that occasion? - -Major ANDERSON. 191 for marksman. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the authorized ammunition allowance? - -Major ANDERSON. 200 rounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any reason why the scores might differ from -212 to 191, based on the layout of the courses or any of the conditions -surrounding those tests, Major Anderson? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes; the day the 212 was fired appears to be according -to the record book to have been an ideal day under firing conditions. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say the record book you meant Commission Exhibit -No. 239 that you referred to? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes; when he fired that he had just completed a -very intensive preliminary training period. He had the services of -an experienced highly trained coach. He had high motivation. He had -presumably a good to excellent rifle and good ammunition. We have -nothing here to show under what conditions the B course was fired. It -might well have been a bad day for firing the rifle--windy, rainy, -dark. There is little probability that he had a good, expert coach, and -he probably didn't have as high a motivation because he was no longer -in recruit training and under the care of the drill instructor. There -is some possibility that the rifle he was firing might not have been as -good a rifle as the rifle that he was firing in his A course firing, -because may well have carried this rifle for quite some time, and it -got banged around in normal usage. - -Mr. SPECTER. What are the differences between the A and B courses, -Major Anderson? - -Major ANDERSON. The A course is fired at 200, 300, and 500 yards. The B -course is exactly the same course as far as targets, number of rounds -and positions are concerned, but it is fired entirely at 200 yards. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there compensations in the scoring to allow for the -difference in distances? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes; there is. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other familiarity with weapons did Mr. Oswald possess -according to that document identified as Anderson Exhibit No. 1? - -Major ANDERSON. On 17 December 1956 he fired the Browning Automatic -Rifle familiarization 75 rounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any score indicated on that firing? - -Major ANDERSON. There will be no scores indicated for familiarization -firing. It is not scored. - -Mr. SPECTER. What other familiarization? - -Major ANDERSON. On 11 December 1956 he fired the pistol familiarization -100 rounds. On 2 May 1958 he fired the 12-gage riot gun familiarization -10 rounds, again on 7 May 1958 he fired the .45 caliber pistol 100 -rounds for familiarization and on 9 March 1959 he fired the 12-gage -riot gun 10 rounds for familiarization. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald's marksmanship -capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, -Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman? - -Major ANDERSON. I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving -the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better -than or equal to--better than the average let us say. As compared to -a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be -considered as a good to excellent shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, I now want to show you certain photographs -which have been heretofore identified and introduced into the -Commission's record as a preliminary to asking your opinion on the -difficulty of certain shots which I will identify. - -First I show you Commission Exhibit No. 347 which is an overhead -photograph of an area known as Dealey Plaza, which the record will -show is the situs of the assassination of President Kennedy. I now -show you Commission Exhibit No. 348 which is a photograph of the Texas -School Book Depository Building with the letter "A" pointing to the -half-opened window, that is the bottom portion of the window which is -half opened, where other witnesses have testified that the assassin -stood. Let me add as a factor for you to assume to be true, this the -record will show is based upon eyewitnesses at the scene, that the -weapon partly protruded from the window identified as letter "A" in -Exhibit No. 348 pointing at an angle which is not completely in a -straight line but very much in a straight line with the angle of the -street being designated as Elm Street, which street runs on a downgrade -of approximately 3 deg.. - -I now show you a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 893, -and a second document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 895, which -depict frame No. 210 and frame No. 225 on photographs in the nature -of moving pictures taken by Abraham Zapruder at the assassination -site which the evidence indicates was the range of the first shot -which struck President Kennedy in the lower portion of his neck, with -that bullet striking at a distance from 176.9 feet to a distance of -190.8 feet. Stated differently, the evidence shows that somewhere -between these two pictures President Kennedy was shot in the neck, and -as the photograph of the rifle scope shows in the left-hand corner -lower picture, that is the view through the telescopic lens which the -marksman had based on onsite tests which were made in Dallas with a -camera mounted looking through the scope on Commission Exhibit No. 139, -which is the weapon identified as the assassination rifle. Now assuming -those factors to be true for purposes of this next question, how -would you characterize the difficulty of a shot at that range, which -would strike the President in the lower portion of his neck at a spot -indicated by a white mark on the back of the stand-in the photograph -marked "Re-enactment"? - -My question, then, is how would you characterize the difficulty or ease -of that shot for a marksman with Mr. Oswald's capabilities? - -Major ANDERSON. In my opinion this is not a particularly difficult -shot, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make this shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a document marked as Commission Exhibit No. -902, which characterizes what was believed to have been the shot which -struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from rifle in window -to the President of 265.3 feet, with the photograph through rifle -scope identified on the document being the view which the marksman had -of the President at the time the President was struck in the head, and -I ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that -shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of Mr. Oswald as a -marksman, evidenced by the Marine Corps documents on him. - -Major ANDERSON. I consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot -at this short range, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make such -a shot. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we have been off the record -because Mr. Rankin stepped out, but we will proceed now to complete the -deposition since he hasn't returned at this time. - -Major Anderson, assume if you will that there were three shots fired by -the assassin with a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in a time span of 4.8 to -5.6 seconds. Would that speed of firing be within the capabilities of -Mr. Oswald based upon the information as to his marksmanship ability -from the Marine Corps records? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; it would. - -Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, are you as familiar with the telescopic -sights as is Master Sergeant Zahm? - -Major ANDERSON. No, sir; I am not. Sergeant Zahm is far more familiar -and much more of an expert on telescopic sights than I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has the testimony which you have provided here today on -the general propositions to which you have testified been within your -sphere of specialization? - -Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; they have. - -Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition of you, Major Anderson. We -very much appreciate your coming. - -Major ANDERSON. You are quite welcome. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. ZAHM - -The testimony of Sgt. James A. Zahm was taken on July 24, 1964, -at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. J. Lee -Rankin, general counsel; and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. - - -Mr. SPECTER. Sergeant Zahm, will you stand and raise your right hand. -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you shall give before -the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Sergeant ZAHM. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Sergeant ZAHM. James A. Zahm. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation, please? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Master sergeant. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in what branch of the service are you? - -Sergeant ZAHM. U.S. Marine Corps. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in the Marine Corps, Sergeant Zahm? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Eighteen years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of what do your current duties consist? - -Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training -Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training -Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record. - -Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months. - -Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship? - -Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I -became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches -from 1952 through to date about eight times. This is annually. I won -the President's match in 1953 at the national matches and the Leech Cup -in 1952, and the Marine Corps Cup in 1957. There are some others. - -Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had with telescopic sights, -Sergeant Zahm? - -Sergeant ZAHM. One of my additional duties at the present time is the -noncommissioned officer in charge of the long-range team. This consists -of about 40 members of the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team, and -I am charged with training, providing weapons, and hand loading the -ammunition for practice and eventual firing at 600 and 1,000 yards in -the interservice match. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are telescopic sights used regularly in those activities? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you characterize for me in some manner your -experience then with telescopic sights in the number that you have used -or duration of time where you have used telescopic sights? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Well, from my own experience, and it is true that the -higher powered telescopes are used in the particular type of firing -we are doing right now, deliberate slow fire at extreme ranges of 600 -and 1,000 yards. We use 12-power to 20-power telescopes. These are -unsuitable for moving targets or closer ranges from unsteady positions, -because the power of the telescope tends to magnify the shooter's -movements and makes a hold more difficult. - -In the lower-powered telescope such as four-power telescope at closer -ranges ranging from 50 to 200 yards, this is an ideal type of weapon -for moving targets or type of telescope for moving targets, and for the -closer ranges, things being inherent in the focus of the scopes when -you get in too close, the higher power type scopes tend to blur out to -a certain degree. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the increased efficiency of a -marksman in using a four-power scope as opposed to using only the iron -sights? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Well, with the iron sights you have more room for error -in the fact that you have three variables. You have your targets, your -front sight and your rear sight, and you have the possibility of an -error in alining the sights, and then you also have the possibility -of an error in the sights on the targets, which we refer to as the -sight picture. Looking through aperture or even the open buckhorn type -sights, when you are concentrating on your sights, your targets tend to -become blurred because of the close focus of your eye in alining the -sights. - -Now this as opposed to telescope of a four-power nature it is a natural -characteristic of a telescope when you are looking for your target, it -is a natural thing to center your target in the view of your telescope, -and in the center view of your telescope is the aiming crosshairs. This -is only one point. - -If you get this one point, the crosshairs in the proper relationship to -your target, this is an aid in locating, finding your target, because -you are using the scope in the sense as binoculars. Once you have found -your target, your sights are already alined, and then through good -trigger manipulation the shot should be well on the target. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to rapid-fire shooting, how does the -telescopic sight on a four-power scope work out? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Four-power being a reasonably low-power scope, it has -a fairly broad field of view. By this we mean it covers a reasonable -amount of area out at about 100 yards, about I think probably around -30 feet or so. Using the scope, rapidly working a bolt and using the -scope to relocate your target quickly and at the same time when you -locate that target you identify it and the crosshairs are in close -relationship to the point you want to shoot at, it just takes a minor -move in aiming to bring the crosshairs to bear, and then it is a quick -squeeze. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as easy, difficult, or how would -you characterize it to use a scope, a four-power scope in rapid fire? - -Sergeant ZAHM. A real aid, an extreme aid. - -Mr. SPECTER. Suppose in focusing in through the four-power scope you do -not get a completely circular view, but instead get a partial view with -a corner of the view being blacked out because you don't have the scope -in direct alinement, but you are still able to see a sufficient amount -of daylight through the scope so that you can see where the crosshairs -line up on target. Is it in sufficient alinement at that juncture to -permit the marksman to shoot accurately? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how does that work out that the alinement is -sufficient to permit an accurate shot, even though the marksman does -not have a completely clear view through the entire circle of the scope? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Well, in the assembly of the telescope, the aiming -reticle or crosshair is so placed in the scope that it is in the same -plane as the focus of the lenses, and regardless of the position of the -eye behind the scope, this makes no apparent or no real movement of the -reticle on the target itself, so if the shooter can look through the -scope and see the juncture of the crosshairs, and it is on his target, -if he properly manipulates the trigger he will get a hit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the documents -identified as Commission Exhibit No. 239 and Exhibit No. 1 to Major -Anderson's deposition, Sergeant Zahm? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on the tests of Mr. Oswald shown by those documents, -how would you characterize his ability as a marksman? - -Sergeant ZAHM. I would say in the Marine Corps he is a good shot, -slightly above average, and as compared to the average male of his age -throughout the civilian, throughout the United States, that he is an -excellent shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much familiarity would a man with Oswald's -qualifications, obtained in the Marine Corps, require in order to -operate a rifle with a scope such as a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with a -four-power scope? - -Sergeant ZAHM. How much familiarity would he require? - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me rephrase the question. Would it be very difficult -for a man with Oswald's capabilities as a marksman to use a rifle with -a four-power scope? - -Sergeant ZAHM. No; I feel that the instruction that he had received -qualifies him on the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. There are -just a few refinements in the operation of the bolt rifle and the -scope through a minimum amount of experimenting would make him as -proficient with the bolt and the scope as it did with the weapons he -received instruction on, and if not it would improve his proficiency -actually through the use of the telescope. I feel that this would be an -advantage. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many shots in your opinion would a man like Oswald -have to take in order to be able to operate a rifle with a four-power -scope, based on the training he had received in the Marine Corps? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Based on that training, his basic knowledge in sight -manipulation and trigger squeeze and what not, I would say that he -would be capable of sighting that rifle in well, firing it, with 10 -rounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would dry runs be an aid to a man like Oswald in learning -how to operate a rifle with a scope on it. - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record what is meant in -marksmanship terms by a dry run? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Dry firing is working the bolt and manipulating the -trigger and alining the sights, whether it be scope or iron, without -any ammunition. The advantage in the scope in dry firing is that when -he snaps the trigger or squeezes the trigger, he can see any apparent -error in his trigger manipulation, movement of the piece, by the jump -of the crosshair much easier than he can with iron sights. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would the use of a four-power scope be a real advantage to -a marksman of Mr. Oswald's capabilities or of a slight advantage, or -how would you characterize the advantage that he would obtain, if any, -from the use of such a scope? - -Sergeant ZAHM. I consider it a real advantage, particularly at the -range of 100 yards, in identifying your target. It allows you to see -your target clearly, and it is still of a minimum amount of power that -it doesn't exaggerate your own body movements. It just is an aid in -seeing in the fact that you only have the one element, the crosshair, -in relation to the target as opposed to iron sights with alining the -sights and then alining them on the target. It is a real aid. - -Mr. SPECTER. Sergeant Zahm, I am now going to show you the same -photographs which I showed to Major Anderson in setting the basis for -asking you a hypothetical question on capabilities here. As the record -will show, we have heretofore before the President's Commission entered -into evidence Exhibit No. 347 which is an overhead shot of Dealey -Plaza. Commission Exhibit No. 348, which I am now displaying to you, is -a photograph of the Texas School Book Depository Building. The evidence -in the record indicates that the marksman stood at the point designated -"A" with the lower half of the window being raised halfway, and the -gun protruding out of that window pointing down the street called Elm -Street in approximately the angle of my pencil which is virtually -although not exactly straight down the street. Elm Street declines 3 deg. -as it slopes under the triple underpass. - -As the evidence will further show, Commission Exhibits Nos. 893 and -895 respectively depict frames 210 and 225 of the Zapruder film which -is a range of the first shot from 176.9 feet to 190.8 feet. In the -lower left-hand corner under designation "Photograph through rifle -scope" there is shown the view of the marksman from the sixth floor of -the depository building as he looked down at President Kennedy with -this picture being taken of a stand-in for President Kennedy, with the -white mark designating the spot on the President where the first bullet -struck him. - -Now assuming that the President was struck under those circumstances -at a distance of from 176.9 feet to 190.8 feet, using a 6.5 mm -Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with a four-power scope, would a man with -Oswald's marksmanship capabilities be able to complete such a shot and -strike the target on the white mark there? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Very definitely. - -Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize that, as a difficult, not too -difficult, easy, or how would you characterize that shot? - -Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I -consider it a very easy shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now taking a look at Commission Exhibit No. 902, which as -the record will show, has been introduced into evidence to depict the -shot which struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from the -rifle in the window to the part of the President's body being 265.3 -feet. Assuming the same factors about using a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle -and pointing it down Elm Street as shown on Commission Exhibit No. 347, -would a marksman of Mr. Oswald's capabilities using such a rifle with a -4-power scope be able to strike the President in the back of the head? -Would Mr. Oswald possess the capability to complete such a shot which -did, in this situation, strike the President in the back of the head? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes; I think that aiming at the mass of what portion -of the President is visible at that distance and with his equipment, -he would very easily have attained a hit, not necessarily aiming and -hitting in the head. This would have been a little more difficult -and probably be to the top of his ability, aiming and striking the -President in the head. But assuming that he aimed at the mass to the -center portion of the President's body, he would have hit him very -definitely someplace, and the fact that he hit him in the head, but he -could have hit, got a hit. - -Mr. SPECTER. So you would have expected a man of Oswald's capabilities -at a distance of 265.3 feet to strike the President someplace aiming at -him under those circumstances? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And within the range of where you would expect him to hit -him, would that include the President's head? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how would you characterize that shot with respect to -whether it was difficult or not difficult? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. May the record show that -Sergeant Zahm has questioned the appearance of the "photograph through -rifle scope" which appear on Exhibits Nos. 895 and 902. And as the -record will show, there are only four photographs on Exhibit No. -895 whereas there are eight on Commission Exhibit No. 902, so that -necessarily the photograph through the rifle scope is much smaller as -it is depicted on Exhibit No. 902, and I want you to bear that in mind, -Sergeant Zahm, in answering the question as to whether you consider the -shot at a distance of 265.3 feet to be difficult or not difficult; or -characterize it for me in your own words. - -Sergeant ZAHM. I consider it still an easy shot, a little more -difficult from the President's body position and increase in distance -of approximately 40 feet, but I still consider it an easy shot for a -man with the equipment he had and his ability. - -Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that there were three shots fired in a range of -4.8 to 5.6 seconds, would that speed of firing at that range indicated -in the prior questions be within Mr. Oswald's capabilities as a -marksman? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What effect if any would the alinement of the street have -on the moving vehicle in the way that it is shown on the picture, -Exhibit No. 348? - -Sergeant ZAHM. This is a definite advantage to the shooter, the vehicle -moving directly away from him and the downgrade of the street, and he -being in an elevated position made an almost stationary target while he -was aiming in, very little movement if any. - -Mr. SPECTER. How would the fact that the street had a 3 deg. decline affect -the difficulty of the shot. - -Sergeant ZAHM. It would make it easier because Oswald was in an -elevated position, and therefore if the car was traveling on a level -terrain, it would apparently--he would have to keep adjusting by -holding up a little bit as the car traveled. But by going downgrade -this just straightened out his line of sight that much better. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that if the car had been proceeding on a level, the -assassin would have had to have raised his weapon as the distance -between the rifle and the car increased to allow for trajectory? - -Sergeant ZAHM. No; just to allow for the movement of the targets, the -travel. Assume that you are aiming standing at ground level and aiming -down a little at somebody walking straight away from you, and you could -hold your finger and point to him and never have to move it. But when -he gets to the bottom of the hill and the ground levels out, then as he -continues on you have to point your finger---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Raise your finger as you are indicating with your finger -now? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Right; you would have to raise your finger to track the -target. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that if you were aiming at a man in a moving car -driving on the horizontal, as he got farther away from you, would you -(a) hold your rifle at the same level, (b) lower it, or (c) raise it? - -Sergeant ZAHM. If you were in an elevated, a slightly elevated -position, and he was driving on straight level terrain, you would have -to continually track and raise your weapon as he increased his distance -from you. - -Mr. SPECTER. And if he was going down in an angle of descent, would -that decrease the necessity for you to raise your rifle in tracking him? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Right; it would slow the movement down. There still -might be a slight movement, but it wouldn't be as fast. Therefore, not -affecting the aiming or possibly having to introduce a lead in your -aiming, because the target is staying relatively in the same position -on the line of sight. - -Mr. SPECTER. So then it would have been an aid to the assassin to have -had the President's car going on a downgrade because that would have -taken into consideration some of the adjustment necessary by virtue of -the greater distance between the rifle and the victim? - -Sergeant ZAHM. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Sergeant Zahm, which you -think might be helpful in this analysis? - -Sergeant ZAHM. No, sir; I don't think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing before the Commission -today, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF C. A. HAMBLEN - -The testimony of C. A. Hamblen was taken at 2:50 p.m., on July 23, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. You may remain seated. Will you raise your right hand? Do -you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on -the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony -by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive -Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of -Congress, No. 137. You are entitled under the rules of the Commission -governing the taking of testimony of witnesses to have an attorney -present, should you wish. I understand that you are present pursuant -to a subpena that was served on you some days ago by the U.S. Secret -Service, and I presume since you don't have an attorney with you at -this time, you are prepared to proceed with your testimony without an -attorney? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't need an attorney. You might wish to make a little -correction. This should be C. A. Hamblen instead of C. R. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your name is C. A. H-a-m-b-l-e-n? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I will be 50 in December. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are employed by the Western Union Telegraph Co.; -isn't that right? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. It will be 38 years the 6th day of August. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to come right to the point in this deposition. I -think you know basically the reason we have asked you to come over. -It is my understanding that you had a conversation with a newspaper -reporter by the name of Bob Fenley shortly after the assassination, in -which you told him, in substance, that you thought that a man who you -thought looked like Lee Oswald had been in your office and had either -sent a telegram or cashed a money order telegram that he had in his -possession; is that correct? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Not exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is it exactly? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. During that time, I came in contact with newspaper -correspondents from all over the world. In my years of service to the -company, I have never disclosed the contents of a telegram, who they -were addressed to, who they were from, or anything pertaining to them. - -I don't think I told Mr. Fenley that a Lee Oswald had been in there, -because talking with those correspondents, I wouldn't divulge any -patron coming into the telegraph office in search of any of our -services, money orders, telegrams, collateral services, collection -services, anything that we have to offer. I believe there is some -misunderstanding on Mr. Fenley's part there. Perhaps I did tell him -that I thought I had seen someone that looked like the man that I saw -over television. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember---- - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I thought he was the assassinator. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to Mr. Fenley about this? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't remember telling anyone that, of anyone filing -a telegram with us. I remember talking with Fenley, but I wouldn't -disclose any information. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say to Fenley? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Just in general conversation like I would with Wes Wise or -any of the other reporters that I come in contact with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you tell Fenley that you thought you had seen -somebody that reminded you of Oswald in your office? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes; I did tell him that I had saw Oswald. I may have -told him that. I don't recall what all was said--as many of those -correspondents that I talked to during that period of time. Then -the employees under me, we never discuss any telegrams unless it is -necessary for them to ask me to pass upon a telegram so it could be -transmitted. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling Fenley that when you saw the -picture of the alleged assassin on television, that he looked very much -like a man that had caused you a hard time on several instances in your -office? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't remember telling Fenley anything like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember signing a statement to that effect for -Mr. Wilcox on December 2, 1963, and I show you a copy. - -Mr. HAMBLEN. That I told Fenley that I saw that man in there? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I told Wilcox that I thought I saw him, but I don't think -I told Fenley. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Read the first paragraph of that statement. - -Mr. HAMBLEN (reading). I don't think I told Fenley that. I remember -telling Mr. Wilcox that I thought a party had been in there that -resembled Oswald, on several different occasions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now the statement that I have shown you here, which -is Wilcox Exhibit No. 3005, is a copy of a statement that you signed on -December 2, 1963, isn't it? That is your signature? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes; that is my signature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could I have it back, please? Now, that statement says, -and I quote: - -"I was in conversation with a reporter at the counter and remarked to -him that I was watching my TV, enjoying the Ernie Ford show, when word -was flashed that the President had been shot and that I thought to -myself what a coincidence it was that I recognized the picture of the -accused gunman when I recognized it when he was slain in jail. He asked -me how I could remember so vividly the photo and my answer to him that -the picture was or was the spit image of a party that had caused me a -hard time on several instances in his transactions of business within -the past several months. (Mr. Bob Fenley was the reporter.)" - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Well, now, if I gave Bob any information like that, -I don't recall it now. I might have at the time that I wrote the -statement. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you had several conversations with Mr. Wilcox about -this whole matter over a period of time? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wilcox and the company conducted a thorough -investigation of the files? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I am sure they did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And tried to find the telegrams that you thought this man -that was in there may have sent; isn't that right? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to find them? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I wasn't able to detect any one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After this investigation was made, Mr. Wilcox showed you -these telegrams that you have associated or thought might be associated -with Oswald? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. They were brought to me in the presence of Mr. Wilcox and -the vice president of the company in charge of this investigation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't able to identify any of those telegrams as -having been sent by this man you thought looked like Oswald; isn't that -right? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. That's right. And I think I am pretty good on recognizing -handwriting after handling as many as I have over those years of time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection at this time, do you -think that Lee Oswald was ever in your office? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I wouldn't say that it was Lee Oswald. I would say it was -someone that resembled him from the picture that I had seen in the -paper and on TV. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to state positively that it was Lee -Oswald? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you can see anybody in that picture -that you think might have been the man that was in your office that we -have been talking about. - -Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Bringuier -Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture. - -Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall specifically that Mr. Aubrey Lee Lewis at -one time in the fall of 1963 had some trouble paying somebody a money -order because this fellow expected to get the money order without -proper identification; that you became involved in this and helped Mr. -Lewis handle it? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what the fellow looked like? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I can't tell you what he looked like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if it was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I wouldn't say that it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he resembled Oswald in any way? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I don't. Different ways people dress and everything, -they come in one time and we pay them money orders and the next time -they come in we hardly recognize them. I remember it was a very small -money order, too small to quibble over. I can't remember where it was -from. I know it was under $10, I know that. - -Usually I pay people without identification when it is a small money -order, which the clerks are not allowed to do. They have to get my -permission before they can make payment on a money order where a person -is unable to furnish proper identification. But on small amounts, I -take it upon myself to assume the responsibility, hoping that I will -pay the right man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After looking at this picture that we have looked at, and -after reviewing your recollection, you are not able to identify any of -the people who you saw in your office during that period as being Lee -Harvey Oswald, isn't that a fact? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in assuming that you are quite certain that -Oswald was not a regular customer, in any event? He was never coming -into your office at regular intervals, is that correct? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. Well, I wouldn't say Lee Oswald came in there at regular -intervals. We have patrons that visit us sometimes once a week, -sometimes half a dozen times a week. If it was him, he was very -infrequent. I will say if it was him, he wasn't there over three times, -that I recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was a fellow that you thought resembled Oswald to -some extent that did come in on occasion, or at least two or three -times, but you are not able to positively state that it was Oswald? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that in your discussions -with Mr. Wilcox and with the other officials of the company, you -did the best that you could to straighten this whole matter out and -determine whether it was Oswald or not? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I certainly did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were unable, after working with Mr. Wilcox, to pin -down any of these telegrams or money orders that would indicate that it -was Oswald? - -Mr. HAMBLEN. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, specifically, I show you a picture marked "Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that looks like that man who was in -your office. - -Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I wouldn't say that that was the man that was in -there. No resemblance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to cut your testimony as short as I possibly can, -because you are not feeling well. We appreciate your cooperation in -coming in when you don't feel well like you have. - -Mr. HAMBLEN. I appreciate it. I was in the X-ray all morning and -yesterday morning for 2 hours. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Hamblen, for coming in. I -appreciate it very much. - -Mr. HAMBLEN. If I can help you any further, well, you have my address. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We will get in touch with you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT GENE FENLEY - -The testimony of Robert Gene Fenley, was taken at 9:45 a.m., on July -14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant -attorney general of Texas, was present. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Robert Gene Fenley. Mr. Fenley, -my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the -general counsel of the President's Commission. - -Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, -1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of -procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with -that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized -to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the -general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate -and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President -Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -In particular as to you, Mr. Fenley, the nature of the inquiry today -is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any -other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, I -understand that you are appearing here today by virtue of a letter -request mailed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the -staff of the President's Commission, which you received about 4 days -ago? - -Mr. FENLEY. That is correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you please rise so I may administer the oath? Do you -solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. FENLEY. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name? - -Mr. FENLEY. Robert Gene Fenley. - -Mr. HUBERT. G-e-n-e is your middle name? - -Mr. FENLEY. Correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir? - -Mr. FENLEY. 3701 Strayhorn Drive, Mesquite, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Fenley? - -Mr. FENLEY. Reporter for the Dallas Times Herald. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed? - -Mr. FENLEY. Nine years. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you? - -Mr. FENLEY. Thirty-six. - -Mr. HUBERT. Were you in newspaper work before you joined the Times -Herald? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. With what newspaper? - -Mr. FENLEY. Prior to the Times Herald, I was with the Lubbock Avalanche -Journal, the Denton Record Chronicle, and the Pryor, Oklahoma, Times -Democrat. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to college, sir? - -Mr. FENLEY. I went to Oklahoma University. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you graduate? - -Mr. FENLEY. Four years. No; I did not graduate. - -Mr. HUBERT. Study journalism? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes; part of the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your whole adult experience, I gather, therefore, has been -in newspaper work? - -Mr. FENLEY. That is true. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know a Mr. Hamblen connected with the Western -Union Co. here in Dallas? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I have talked with him on one occasion. I don't know -him personally. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was that one occasion? - -Mr. FENLEY. The date is rather vague in my mind. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us perhaps the occasion? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I am a stringer. - -Mr. HUBERT. A what? - -Mr. FENLEY. A stringer. A correspondent for Time magazine, and I had -written a long piece which we transmitted by Western Union, and I had -gone into Western Union to hand this over for transmitting, and I fell -in conversation with Mr. Hamblen. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you known him prior to that time? - -Mr. FENLEY. No; I had not. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about what time of day it was? - -Mr. FENLEY. It was at night. I forget the exact time of night, but I -believe I had driven from Mesquite with the story to give it to Western -Union. It might have been 11 or 12 o'clock. - -Mr. HUBERT. It happened that Hamblen was the clerk or employee of the -Western Union in service? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how you came to engage him in conversation? - -Mr. FENLEY. He noticed the wire or press message which I had, and it -had to do with the assassination, or Oswald, frankly. I can't remember -the content of the wire, but we sort of chatted there for a moment, and -he recalled that he was certain that Oswald had come into the office on -occasion. - -I don't know whether he used the word several. I took it to mean that. -And received some various small amounts of money orders. And certainly -this was interesting to me. We kept chatting and I asked him, now how -big were the amounts of the orders, and he said, "I don't think there -would be anything over $15, $10 or $15." And I asked him, "Now, you -are pretty sure this was Oswald? I mean, the guy you have seen in -the pictures and things like that?" And he replied he was. He said, -"He used to come in and would give the girls a hard time. He was a -cantankerous individual." - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention what girls? - -Mr. FENLEY. No; not by name. So he said, "I believe the last time"--and -he couldn't recall the date or anything--"that he came in, he went -himself to wait on the fellow because he knew that he was sort of -difficult to deal with." Well, this was certainly interesting to me as -a newspaperman. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard that story before? - -Mr. FENLEY. No; I had not. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your coming upon this story was something -of a gratuity? - -Mr. FENLEY. It certainly was. I was slightly amazed. And the other -thing, there was a marble countertop there in the office, and he -said, or he recalled that Oswald had written in what he described a -curious sort of printing with, as best he could tell, he wrote out some -letters. For instance, an "N" he said as printed by Oswald would have a -high rising right side to it. He said it was a rather curious sort of -printing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he demonstrate that to you? - -Mr. FENLEY. He demonstrated this on the marble. - -Mr. HUBERT. Hamblen did so? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that it was in a foreign alphabet? - -Mr. FENLEY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just a peculiar art? - -Mr. FENLEY. I took it to be certainly the English alphabet, but with a -peculiar sort of printing. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate what was the nature of the difficulty that -he had had on previous occasions with the man he said was Oswald? - -Mr. FENLEY. Nothing other than an indication that Oswald was difficult -to deal with. - -Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't say how he was difficult to deal with? - -Mr. FENLEY. No; not specifically. Well, at this moment I thought, well, -this sounds like quite an interesting story. And Hamblen gave me his -card. So I went home, and the next day---- - -Mr. HUBERT. How long was the conversation? - -Mr. FENLEY. Oh, not over 10 minutes long. I asked him also, which I -failed to mention, how could we get the records, or how could anyone -get the records, and he indicated it would be very difficult. - -Of course, this would be very helpful if you would get the names or -the identification of people who had sent any money orders to Oswald, -and he indicated that there were so many of that type of money order -coming in that they just couldn't keep all the records. And I got the -impression that it would be either impossible or almost impossible to -run it down. - -Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned, I think, that you were particularly -interested as to the certainty of his identification of Oswald as the -man, and that you made some inquiry along that line? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. What did you do by way of testing him, as it were, on that -identification? - -Mr. FENLEY. Well, as I said, I went home that night, and, of course, -we don't have--we are an afternoon newspaper and don't have deadlines -until the morning. - -The next morning I went to talk to our police reporter, whose name is -George Carter, and I hold him what Hamblen had told me. I said I am not -too sure of it. I think it needs a double check. And he said, well, I -know the guy. - -Mr. HUBERT. Meaning Hamblen? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes; he said he knew the fellow over at Western Union, and -he said, "I know he is in at Mike's, which is a little barbecue stand -across from the city hall." Hamblen would come into Mike's on occasion, -and George knew him. - -And I said, "George, why don't you go talk to him and see if he will -tell you the same thing?" And George did. When he did, we compared -notes, and he had told George just precisely, as best we knew, the same -content he told me. So George wrote the story. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you yourself make any notes contemporaneously with the -conversation with Hamblen or later? - -Mr. FENLEY. No; I may have made some at home, jotted down a couple of -things on a scrap of paper. In fact, I know I did. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that available? - -Mr. FENLEY. I doubt it. I am sure I have thrown it away. I was very -interested in the story, but I was sort of afraid to take notes in -front of him, since a lot of people will suddenly freeze up when you -start taking notes. - -Mr. HUBERT. But to come back to the question of identification, I think -you mentioned that it struck you that that was the key to the story, as -it were? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you press him in any way about the identification? - -Mr. FENLEY. Not a great deal. I really, after asking another question -about it, saying, "Now you really feel like you saw Oswald," then I -didn't press the matter any further, because I was afraid he would -freeze up. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand too that his identification, as he stated it -to you, was based upon comparison of the mental image he had of the -man that had come in with the pictures of Oswald he had seen since the -assassination? - -Mr. FENLEY. On television. And frankly, for that reason, I wasn't too -darn sure that he knew what he was talking about. So I mean, you always -have this suspicion that somebody is trying to identify in the case or -something, and this is precisely why I went to Carter and said, "Why -don't you talk to him?" - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words even on that day you were wondering whether -this man really had seen Oswald or not? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you anything about Oswald having come to -collect any money order in company with the person of Spanish or Latin -American appearance? - -Mr. FENLEY. No; he did one thing, and I am really squeezing my memory -here. I believe he said he thought he lived at the "Y" on one occasion, -that he came over again--I am not too certain of that because all of -this business is really, there is so much of this jumbled up, but I do -believe he said he thought he was living at the "Y." - -Mr. HUBERT. There was no other person present when you spoke to Hamblen? - -Mr. FENLEY. There were people in the foyer of the office. - -Mr. HUBERT. But no one in this conversation? - -Mr. FENLEY. No one immediately. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Hamblen know who you were? - -Mr. FENLEY. I think so, being that I did send the telegram addressed to -Time, Inc., and signed Robert Fenley of Dallas Times Herald. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did this conversation occur after your story had been -filed, or while it was being filed, or interspersed? - -Mr. FENLEY. Interspersed. - -Mr. HUBERT. And he volunteered all of this? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean the beginning of it? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I certainly forgot what preceded his volunteering -it, but it was a volunteered thing. Certainly I couldn't have had any -information to question him. - -Mr. HUBERT. In fact, you did not have any information about this at all? - -Mr. FENLEY. No; it took me rather by surprise. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now there is one other matter. You indicated you didn't -know what day this occurred on, and I wonder if there is any way you -could fix it? It would have been, I suppose, after the shooting of -Oswald? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes; certainly. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long after? - -Mr. FENLEY. It wasn't too long after that. Now I remember one other -person who came in, and oddly enough he didn't hear the conversation, -but there is sort of a coincidence that at the door was a fellow by the -name of Marsh Clark who is also a full-time Time man. - -Mr. HUBERT. With what? - -Mr. FENLEY. I believe he is in Detroit or Chicago. - -Mr. HUBERT. With what? - -Mr. FENLEY. Time. And also I saw that he had a long thick file, and I -casually inquired who he was with, and it turned out he was with Time -also. Marsh, I don't believe--in fact I am fairly certain--did not hear -what Hamblen had told me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Marsh Clark come in, or did you see him after your -conversation was over? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I made myself acquainted to him after the conversation -with Hamblen, but he was the only other person that I could identify -as being there. I was trying to think by that--now Marsh was still in -town, so it must not have been--we could go back to the file on this -thing and find that story, and it would have been about 2 days before -that story appeared. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me make this point to you. I notice from the calendar -that I have before me of the year 1963 that November 28 was Thursday -and was Thanksgiving. Could you relate this meeting with Hamblen to -that date? - -Mr. FENLEY. It seems to me it might be--my memory on these things -is terrible--but it seems to me that it might have been around -Thanksgiving, now that you mention it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was within the week immediately -succeeding the shooting of Oswald? - -Mr. FENLEY. I couldn't be positive, but I think it could have been; -yes. This could be checked very easily by going to the newspaper file -and getting the date and then going back a couple of days. - -Mr. HUBERT. This Mr. Carter, I think you said, checked with Mr. -Hamblen? That is, he told you he did? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. On the same day that you told him about it, which was the -next day? - -Mr. FENLEY. The next day after; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that he said that you suggested that -he check it out with Hamblen, and that he did right away, or in a few -hours? - -Mr. FENLEY. I would have written the story myself, except I felt -a little dubious, I must say, of it and I wanted George to do the -same thing and see if the story matched. So now, frankly, I am not -too positive when George actually talked to Hamblen, but I believe -the story appeared on a Saturday morning. So if it could have been -Thanksgiving, if Thanksgiving would be on a Thursday, and George talked -to him on Friday, it would appear for the Saturday paper. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you have a recollection that Clark spoke to you after -having spoken to Hamblen? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I am certain of that. - -Mr. HUBERT. Before the story appeared? - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. And told you that the story he got from Hamblen was about -the same as what you told him Hamblen told you? - -Mr. FENLEY. You mean Carter? - -Mr. HUBERT. Yes; George Carter. - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else, sir, you would like to comment upon -concerning this matter? - -Mr. FENLEY. No; Gee, I wish I--I am still very curious about this, but -what results, if any, this yielded, frankly, I don't mean this for the -record, but I frankly heard that he recanted the tale. - -Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this. This is a part of the formality of -closing these depositions. I don't think, and I ask you to state -whether you concur, that there has been any conversation between us -this morning other than that which has been recorded in this deposition? - -Mr. FENLEY. No. - -Mr. HUBERT. You do concur? - -Mr. FENLEY. I concur. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. - -Mr. FENLEY. Yes, sir. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF AUBREY LEE LEWIS - -The testimony of Aubrey Lee Lewis was taken at 11:30 a.m., on July 14, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dean Robert G. Story, -special counsel to the attorney general of Texas and Sam Kelley, -assistant attorney general of Texas, were present. - - -Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Aubrey Lee Lewis. Mr. Lewis, -my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the -general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions -of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint -resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by -the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order -and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn -deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of -the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon -the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, -Mr. Lewis, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts -you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you -may know about the general inquiry. Now I understand, Mr. Lewis, that -you appeared here today by virtue of a letter requesting you to do so, -addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of -the President's Commission. - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that? - -Mr. LEWIS. It was Friday. - -Mr. HUBERT. Friday, the 10th, is that correct? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. LEWIS. I do. - -Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name? - -Mr. LEWIS. Aubrey Lee Lewis. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live? - -Mr. LEWIS. 2321 Tolosa Drive. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation? - -Mr. LEWIS. I am an assistant branch manager. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of what? - -Mr. LEWIS. Western Union Telegraph Co. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mr. LEWIS. 7620 Lemmon Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what city? - -Mr. LEWIS. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied? - -Mr. LEWIS. Five years. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time? - -Mr. LEWIS. U.S. Navy. - -Mr. HUBERT. And prior to that? - -Mr. LEWIS. High school. - -Mr. HUBERT. How old are you? - -Mr. LEWIS. Twenty-six. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that all of your adult life you have been employed by -the Western Union? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you held the same position all that time? - -Mr. LEWIS. No; I have held the same position about the last year and a -half. - -Mr. HUBERT. What are your general duties in that capacity? - -Mr. LEWIS. I am an operator to receive and send telegrams, and advise -the other personnel, instruct the new personnel about the daily routine -of the office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that branch number known by a particular designation or -number? - -Mr. LEWIS. It is B-2 branch office. - -Mr. HUBERT. On Lemmon? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes; 7620 Lemmon Avenue. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. C. A. Hamblen? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name? - -Mr. LEWIS. Curtis. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is he employed by the Western Union? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where? - -Mr. LEWIS. At 2034 Main, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. HUBERT. That is the downtown office? - -Mr. LEWIS. That is the main branch; yes, sir; main office. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him? - -Mr. LEWIS. I have known him the better part of 5 years. About 4-1/2. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever worked with him? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. When? - -Mr. LEWIS. You mean what years, or when? - -Mr. HUBERT. I have specifically in mind sometime prior to November 26. - -Mr. LEWIS. I worked under him nearly 3 years. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? - -Mr. LEWIS. That was at the main office, 2034 Main. He is the early -night manager. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street branch? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you worked under him at the Main Street branch -until about 2 years ago? - -Mr. LEWIS. About a year and a half ago. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now were you working with him either at the Main Street -branch or at the other branch that you mentioned sometime during the -fall of 1963? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? Which one? - -Mr. LEWIS. That was at the Main Street; 2034 Main. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to be working there? - -Mr. LEWIS. I was pulled in from my job because they were short -downtown. People were on vacation. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long a period did you work with Mr. Hamblen then at the -Main branch? - -Mr. LEWIS. I was down 2 weeks altogether, and he was out the first -week. I relieved him the first week, and then I relieved this other -fellow the second week, and I worked under him the second week I was -there. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that you worked under Mr. Hamblen at the Main branch -during the early night shift for 1 week? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Could you place that week? - -Mr. LEWIS. It was in October, I believe. I am not for sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a matter of record on this part? - -Mr. LEWIS. It is in the paper there. I don't know exactly what date it -was. - -Mr. HUBERT. I now show you a photostatic copy of a document dated -Dallas, Tex., December 4, 1963, addressed to Mr. Wilcox, apparently -signed by Aubrey Lee Lewis, which has heretofore been identified as -follows: "Exhibit No. 3006 in the deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox at -Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964, WJL." I have shown you this photostatic -copy of this document which I have just described, and I now ask you if -that is a photostat of your signature? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is this document addressed to Mr. Wilcox and identified as -I have stated a moment ago, a correct statement of facts, so far as you -know? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now I wish you would give us further details concerning the -incident to which reference is made in this Exhibit No. 3006, Wilcox' -deposition, with reference to Hamblen's difficulty with a man named -Oswald? - -Mr. LEWIS. Well, as I said, I was working the early night money order -counter, and this party approached me and said he had a money order, -and I asked him for his identification, which he didn't have any at -that time. And I asked him could he obtain some, and he said he guessed -he could if he had to. He left and came back with some identification. -I believe it was a little Navy ID release card. And I paid him on that. -He gave me quite a bit of trouble. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of what nature? - -Mr. LEWIS. Oh, he was cursing and telling how lousy everything was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen have any part in that matter? - -Mr. LEWIS. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen have any part in this matter? - -Mr. LEWIS. Well, yes. When we have difficulty with anybody, he comes up -and helps us. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he come up on this occasion? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to this individual? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what conversation or statements passed -between Mr. Hamblen and the individual? - -Mr. LEWIS. It was just about the identification, about that you have to -have it before you can get your money. - -Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time when the man went off to get the -identification? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long was Mr. Hamblen with this man? - -Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say for sure. I don't really know. - -Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with him on the first occasion? - -Mr. LEWIS. The first occasion I would say about 4 to 5 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now how long after having left to get the identification -did he come back with his identification you referred to? - -Mr. LEWIS. It wasn't long. I would say about 15 to 30 minutes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen see him then? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? - -Mr. LEWIS. Because he came back up to the counter. - -Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hamblen did? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that? Did you ask him to? - -Mr. LEWIS. He saw him come in, and he came back and helped me out with -him. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was this person disagreeable on the second occasion? - -Mr. LEWIS. He was somewhat disagreeable--still in a nasty mood--you -might say. - -Mr. HUBERT. When you say nasty mood, could you give us an example of -what physically happened that you characterize as nasty? - -Mr. LEWIS. Well, cursing and telling us how lousy we are, and that -he had been paid money orders before and never had to have any -identification. And just generally what everybody else tells us. It is -nothing new. We hear it quite often. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember this person's name? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen tell you that he had had difficulty with -this man prior to this occasion? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever cashed any money orders -for this person prior to this occasion? - -Mr. LEWIS. I don't believe so, no, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any address to the payee? - -Mr. LEWIS. The YMCA is the only address that he gave me. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the telegram money order addressed to the YMCA? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; as far as I can remember, it was. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, as I understand it, it must have come in with -the telegram? - -Mr. LEWIS. He came in with the check. - -Mr. HUBERT. The check? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Your recollection is, the check was addressed to the YMCA, -to an individual at the Y? - -Mr. LEWIS. We have a rubber stamp at each branch office which is -stamped at the top of their checks where it was issued, and as I -recall, it was issued at the Cotton Exchange office. - -Mr. HUBERT. At the Cotton Exchange office? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Of Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. LEWIS. Dallas. - -Mr. HUBERT. So that there was someone in Dallas sending a money order -from the Cotton Exchange office? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. That is where it was addressed, to the Cotton -Exchange. That is where the money order was sent to. I have no idea -where it was sent from. - -Mr. HUBERT. Well, what is this part then about, YMCA? - -Mr. LEWIS. We have an "Office Issued" and there is a rubber stamp on -the check where it was issued at, but I have no idea or know where it -was coming from. That was where the check was written up at, at the -Cotton Exchange. - -Mr. HUBERT. And it was addressed to the payee? - -Mr. LEWIS. To the payee at the YMCA. - -Mr. HUBERT. How are those checks handled? For instance, when it was -issued by the Cotton Exchange branch, would it have been mailed or -delivered? - -Mr. LEWIS. Delivered by boy. - -Mr. HUBERT. Delivered by boy? - -Mr. LEWIS. To the clerk. - -Mr. HUBERT. To the addressee? - -Mr. LEWIS. To the clerk at the YMCA. The clerk signs for it and keeps -them there in a little box they have there. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether this was done in -this case? That is to say, that the clerk receipted for it at the YMCA? - -Mr. LEWIS. So far as I know, that is how it was handled. - -Mr. HUBERT. I mean if you know that absolutely, or are you just -assuming that is the way? - -Mr. LEWIS. I am just assuming that is the way it was handled. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't have any particular knowledge on this occasion? - -Mr. LEWIS. No; I don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us a description of this individual? - -Mr. LEWIS. The only thing I could remember was that he was of a -feminine, very slender build fellow. - -Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean? - -Mr. LEWIS. Well, he talked funny and peculiar. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an accent? - -Mr. LEWIS. No accent. Just the way a person acts. - -Mr. HUBERT. What was his mannerism? - -Mr. LEWIS. Mannerism was feminine. - -Mr. HUBERT. In what way? - -Mr. LEWIS. Well, I don't know how to describe it. - -Mr. HUBERT. Just an overall impression? - -Mr. LEWIS. Just an overall impression, of the person. As far as -remembering his weight and height and everything like that, I wouldn't. -I have no idea. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he dark complexioned? - -Mr. LEWIS. Dark complexioned. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the color of his eyes? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Had dark hair? - -Mr. LEWIS. That is the only thing I remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed? - -Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall that either. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. There was a companion with him. - -Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that the person with him was with him? In -fact was a companion? - -Mr. LEWIS. They were talking. They came together and left together both -times. - -Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that the companion of the payee -that we have been talking about was of a Latin American or Spanish type? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes; that I do recall. - -Mr. HUBERT. By that, you mean what? - -Mr. LEWIS. Dark complexioned, and just looked of Spanish descent. - -Mr. HUBERT. Latin American? - -Mr. LEWIS. Latin American descent. - -Mr. HUBERT. They were speaking English? - -Mr. LEWIS. Normal speech in English. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any Spanish accent? - -Mr. LEWIS. The fellow had a Spanish accent. - -Mr. HUBERT. He was accompanied by the boy with a Spanish accent? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything else that happened? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I wasn't paying much attention to him. - -Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean the exact conversation, but just the general -situation. - -Mr. LEWIS. No; I wouldn't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. How would you describe the person of Spanish accent insofar -as build and size and weight? - -Mr. LEWIS. He was of short and slender build. - -Mr. HUBERT. Shorter than the payee? - -Mr. LEWIS. About the same. - -Mr. HUBERT. About the same weight? - -Mr. LEWIS. Approximately, yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how he was dressed? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how much the money order was for? - -Mr. LEWIS. No; it was for a small amount. I don't recall the exact -amount. - -Mr. HUBERT. You had never had any other business with this payee before? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any afterward? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. And Hamblen did not mention to you that he had had any -before? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. The first time I knew about that was when we went -into our district manager's office. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a picture which I have marked for -identification on the back thereof on the lower right-hand corner the -following words: "Dallas, Tex., July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of Aubrey -L. Lewis." I ask you if this picture resembles the person that you have -been testifying about as the payee on the occasion you have mentioned? - -Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say if it resembled him. - -Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection whether it looks like him at all? - -Mr. LEWIS. I sure don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. You said he had dark hair? - -Mr. LEWIS. That is true. He had dark hair, but as far as any features, -I don't remember the eyes or nose or anything. I don't recall them. - -Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall, as I understand from your statement, that -the man's name was Oswald? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I do not recall that. - -Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with the fact that Mr. Hamblen says he was -Oswald? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes; I am familiar with that. - -Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember? - -Mr. LEWIS. I don't remember. - -Mr. HUBERT. You cannot tell us now whether or not the picture shown in -Exhibit No. 1, which in fact is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, was the -man you have been testifying about as the payee of that money order? - -Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say for sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. Can you say for sure either way that it was or it was not? - -Mr. LEWIS. No; I can't be sure. - -Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it could be and it could not be? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; it could be and it couldn't be. I have no way of -knowing. - -Mr. HUBERT. You will not say it was not that man? - -Mr. LEWIS. I wouldn't say it wasn't, but I wouldn't say it was, because -it could be. I don't know. - -Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall making any comments to Mr. Hamblen on the -occasion that you have been testifying about, and after this payee -had left, that you would like to punch the heads of people of this -character? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes; I made that statement. - -Mr. HUBERT. You made that statement to Mr. Hamblen? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why was that? - -Mr. LEWIS. Well, he is just a person that kind of gives you a bad time. -You can do without that kind. You don't have time to fool with them. - -Mr. HUBERT. Now when did it first come to your attention that it -was possible that the man that had dealings with you, as you have -testified, might be Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LEWIS. Mr. Hamblen, after I had gone back on my job quite sometime, -called me at home one night and asked me did I recall when I had paid -that party, and I told him I recalled it. - -And he asked me did I recognize him as being Oswald, and I said, "No, -I have never put it together." I just never did. And I still can't -picture the two. I had forgotten all about it. - -Mr. HUBERT. When was it that Hamblen approached you, as you say he did, -and asked you about this? - -Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall the date, but it was a couple of weeks after -the assassination, after he was killed. - -Mr. HUBERT. You say then it was about the first week in December? - -Mr. LEWIS. I would say somewhere along in there. I am not for sure, but -it was a short time span. - -Mr. HUBERT. Would it thus have been about 2 months after you had had -this episode, that this episode occurred between you and this man? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Then your memory did not associate the payee with Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. At that time had you been shown or looked at pictures of -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. LEWIS. I had seen him on TV. - -Mr. HUBERT. Have you at any time prior to today been shown a picture of -Lee Harvey Oswald as I have shown it to you? - -Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall if Mr. Wilcox had one or not. I am not sure. -But I saw it in the newspapers and on TV, and I don't recall seeing one -that day. I could have. He possibly had one. - -Mr. HUBERT. What I am talking about is the day that inquiry was focused -upon the possibility of this payee as Lee Harvey Oswald. Were you then -shown a picture and asked if it was that man as I have done today? - -Mr. LEWIS. I believe I was. I am not for sure, but I believe Mr. Wilcox -had one at the time. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you have described the identification card which -this payee ultimately produced and which you ultimately recognized? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I believe you said it was a Navy ID card? - -Mr. LEWIS. It was a little release card you get when you get out of the -service. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a picture on it? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. It just had his name and some of them have serial -numbers and some of them don't. - -Mr. HUBERT. So the identification established then was that the person -who held the telegram also held a card addressed to the payee of the -telegram? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a library card as well? - -Mr. LEWIS. I believe it was a library card also. - -Mr. HUBERT. That didn't have any picture? - -Mr. LEWIS. That didn't have a picture; no. This ID that he had wasn't -very good at all, as far as we considered identification to pay money -orders. - -Mr. HUBERT. Why not? - -Mr. LEWIS. We like to have pictures on identification and some legal -papers, you might say; insurance and driver's license. - -Mr. HUBERT. Driver's license? - -Mr. LEWIS. Driver's license; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask for that? - -Mr. LEWIS. I asked for it, and he didn't have any. - -Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he didn't drive? - -Mr. LEWIS. He didn't make comment. He said he didn't have any license. - -Mr. HUBERT. You think it was about a half hour after the first episode -that he returned with the other identification? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. Was the Latin American looking person with him on both -occasions? - -Mr. LEWIS. Both occasions; yes. - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything to add? - -Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. - -Mr. HUBERT. I think you made reference to the fact that the check from -the Western Union, which was the subject of this whole episode, had -been purchased by someone and payable to the payee involved at the -Cotton Exchange branch? - -Mr. LEWIS. Cotton Exchange branch. - -Mr. HUBERT. Is that in Dallas? - -Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; it is in the Cotton Exchange Building. I think it -is on North Ervay.[F] - -Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I ask you whether you concur with me that -since I have met you today, which was the first time we ever met, there -has been no conversation between us other than that which has been -covered in the deposition in one way or another, is that correct? - -Mr. LEWIS. That's correct. - -Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. - -Mr. LEWIS. Thank you, sir. - - [F] 608 North St. Paul, one block from Ervay and YMCA. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF DEAN ADAMS ANDREWS JR. - -The testimony of Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., was taken on July 21, 1964, -at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Dean Andrews, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified -as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Andrews, as you know by now, I am an attorney on -the staff of the President's Commission. I have been authorized to -take your deposition pursuant to authority granted to the Commission -by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint -resolution of Congress, No. 137. - -I understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you last -week to be here today, so you have had the requisite notice for the -proceeding. - -As you are a member of the bar--as you know, of course, you are -entitled to counsel, but you can probably forego that if you want to. -You also know that you have all the usual privileges not to answer -questions on the grounds of incrimination and whatever other privileges -you might have and want to exercise. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Dean, and the middle initial is A, A for Adams, Andrews, -Jr. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am correct, am I not, that you are a member of the Bar -of Louisiana? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I am a member of the bar of the State of Louisiana. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you regularly practice law in the city of New Orleans? - -Mr. ANDREWS. That's my office; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. ANDREWS. 207 Metairie Lawn Drive. That's in Metairie, La. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Metairie Lawn Drive in Metairie? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you maintain your offices? - -Mr. ANDREWS. 627 Maison Blanche Building, New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am advised by the FBI that you told them that Lee -Harvey Oswald came into your office some time during the summer of -1963. Would you tell us in your own words just what happened as far as -that is concerned? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall the dates, but briefly, it is this: -Oswald came in the office accompanied by some gay kids. They were -Mexicanos. He wanted to find out what could be done in connection with -a discharge, a yellow paper discharge, so I explained to him he would -have to advance the funds to transcribe whatever records they had up in -the Adjutant General's office. When he brought the money, I would do -the work, and we saw him three or four times subsequent to that, not in -the company of the gay kids. He had this Mexicano with him. I assume he -is a Mex because the Latins do not wear a butch haircut. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The first time he came in he was with these Mexicans, and -there were also some gay kids. By that, of course, you mean people that -appeared to you to be homosexuals? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, they swish. What they are, I don't know. We call -them gay kids. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen any of those kids before? - -Mr. ANDREWS. None of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any of them since? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Since the first time they came in? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Since the first time they came in? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ever come back with Oswald? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; Mexicanos came back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see these gay kids after the first time? - -Mr. ANDREWS. First district precinct. Police picked them up for wearing -clothes of the opposite sex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many of them were there? - -Mr. ANDREWS. About 50. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They weren't all with Oswald, were they? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; Oswald--you see, they made what they call a scoop and -put them all in the pokey. I went down for the ones I represented. They -were in the holding pavilion. I paroled them and got them out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do represent from time to time some of these gay -kids, is that correct? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that some of the gay kids that you saw at the -time the police arrested this large group of them for wearing clothes -of the opposite sex were the ones that had been with Oswald? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to identify them by name? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; you see, they just--we don't even open up files on -them. We don't open a file. We mark what we call a working file. We -make a few notes and put it in the general week's work. If you come -back and the office is retained, we make a permanent file and--but -these kids come and go like--you know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were these people picked up by the police as you -have told us? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Let me think. Some time in May. I went and checked the -records. I couldn't find nothing on it. I believe it's May of 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They were picked up in May of 1963? - -Mr. ANDREWS. On Friday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was after Oswald had been in your office? - -Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's initial contact. I think he had come back -with this Mexicano one more time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before these people were arrested? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; then the second time he came back, we talked about -the yellow paper discharge, about his status as a citizen, and about -his wife's status. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now before we get into that, let me try and pin down how -long it was after the first time Oswald came in that these kids all -got arrested. All 50 of them for wearing these clothes? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't know it was 50. That I can't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a month? Two months? A week? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; it wasn't that. Ten days at the most. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I suppose the New Orleans Police Department files would -reflect the dates these people were picked up? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I checked the first district's blotter and the people are -there, but I just can't get their names. You see, they wear names just -like you and I wear clothes. Today their name is Candy; tomorrow it is -Butsie; next day it is Mary. You never know what they are. Names are -a very improbable method of identification. More sight. Like you see -a dog. He is black and white. That's your dog. You know them by sight -mostly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what date it was that that large arrest -was made? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; every Friday is arrest day in New Orleans. They clean -them all up. The shotgun squad keeps the riots, the mugging, and all -the humbug out. They have been doing that very effectively. You can -pick just any Friday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was on a Friday? - -Mr. ANDREWS. It had to be a Friday or Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In May of 1963? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw these kids at this big pickup on Friday or -Saturday, did you ever see any of them again after that? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; still looking for them. They owe me a fee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They are always the hardest ones to find. - -Mr. ANDREWS. They usually pay. They are screwed in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you about his own citizenship -status? You say that he mentioned that the second time he came back. -What did he talk to you about in that regard? - -Mr. ANDREWS. They came in usually after hours, about 5, 5:15, and as -I recall, he had alleged that he had abandoned his citizenship. He -didn't say how; he didn't say where. I assumed that he was one of the -people who wanted to join The Free World and--I represented one or -two of them. They had belonged to The World Citizenship--I explained -to him there are certain steps he had to do, such as taking an oath -of loyalty to a foreign power, voting in a foreign country election, -or some method that is recognized defectively as loss of citizenship. -Then I told him, "Your presence in the United States is proof you are -a citizen. Otherwise, you would be an alien with an alien registration -with a green card, form 990." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had he told you he had been out of the country? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had gone? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Since he had been out of the country, the fact that he -was back and didn't have an alien card was proof he was a citizen? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other part of the conversation? - -Mr. ANDREWS. When he asked the questions--I don't know which visit it -was--about citizenship of his wife, I asked the birthplace or origin -cited for citizenship purposes--that's what counts--and he said Russia, -so I just assumed he had met someone somewhere, some place, either in -Russia or in Europe, married them, and brought them over here as a GI, -a GI bride, and wanted to go through the routine of naturalization, -which is 3 years after lawful admission into the United States if you -are married, and five years if you are not, maintain the status here in -the States cumulatively for 5 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he wanted to institute citizenship -proceedings for his wife? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I told him to go to Immigration and get the forms. -Cost him $10. All he had to do was execute them. He didn't need a -lawyer. That was the end of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did he come into your office? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Minimum of three, maximum of five, counting initial visit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you talk about different subjects at different -times? As I understand it, the first time he came there, he was -primarily concerned about his discharge, is that correct? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, I may have the subject matter of the visits reversed -because with the company he kept and the conversation--he could talk -fairly well--I figured that this was another one of what we call in my -office free alley clients, so we didn't maintain the normalcy with the -file that--might have scratched a few notes on a piece of pad, and 2 -days later threw the whole thing away. Didn't pay too much attention to -him. Only time I really paid attention to this boy, he was in the front -of the Maison Blanche Building giving out these kooky Castro things. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was this, approximately? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. I was coming from the NBC building, and -I walked past him. You know how you see somebody, recognize him. So I -turned around, came back, and asked him what he was doing giving that -junk out. He said it was a job. I reminded him of the $25 he owed the -office. He said he would come over there, but he never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was getting paid to hand out this -literature? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that he told you that he -was being paid $25 a day for handing out these leaflets? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I could have told them that. I know I reminded him of the -$25. I may have it confused, the $25. What I do recall, he said it was -a job. I guess I asked him how much he was making. They were little -square chits a little bit smaller than the picture you have of him over -there [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was handing out these leaflets? - -Mr. ANDREWS. They were black-and-white pamphlets extolling the virtues -of Castro, which around here doesn't do too good. They have a lot of -guys, Mexicanos and Cubanos, that will tear your head off if they see -you fooling with these things. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were they like? - -Mr. ANDREWS. They were pamphlets, single-sheet pamphlets. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just one sheet? It wasn't a booklet? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What color were the pamphlets? You say it was white paper? - -Mr. ANDREWS. White paper offset with black. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been yellow paper? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I am totally colorblind. I wouldn't know. But I think it -is black and white. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are colorblind? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. Most of them wanted it around there. You give it to -them, the people look at it and they drop it, right now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day of the week this was that you -saw him handing this stuff out? - -Mr. ANDREWS. It was in the middle of the week, around Tuesday or -Wednesday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where is the Maison Blanche Building? What street is it -on? - -Mr. ANDREWS. 921 Canal Street. It is on this side. It is bounded by -Dauphine and Burgundy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from the International Trade Mart? - -Mr. ANDREWS. It depends on what route you take. If you come up Camp -Street, it would be two blocks to Canal and four blocks toward the -cemetery; so it would be about six blocks. It would be six blocks no -matter which way you went, but you would walk four blocks on Common -Street or Gravier, and then two blocks over the other way. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture -that has been marked as "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you -recognize the individual in that picture and the street scene, if you -are familiar with it. - -Mr. ANDREWS. This is Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's the fellow who was in your office? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that in your mind? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe; no. This is him. I just can't place it. -This isn't where I saw him. This is probably around the vicinity of the -International Trade Mart. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you another picture -that has been marked for identification as "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," -and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture and the street -scene. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Oswald is marked with an X, and a client of mine is over -here on the right-hand side. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that a a paying client or what? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; paying client [indicating]. And this dress belongs to -a girl friend. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is your client? - -Mr. ANDREWS. It should be three. There's two sisters and this young -lady [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What's her name? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the woman that appears on the far -right-hand side of the picture with a handbag on her arm? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say Oswald is marked with an X, and you identify -that as the man that you saw in your office and the same man you saw -passing out pamphlets? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention specifically to the second man who -is standing behind Oswald to his right and facing toward the front -wearing a white, short-sleeved shirt and necktie, who also appears to -have some leaflets in his hand. Have you ever seen that man before? - -Mr. ANDREWS. The Mexicano that I associate Oswald with is approximately -the same height, with the exception that he has a pronounced short -butch haircut. He is stocky, well built. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow that I have indicated to you on "Bringuier -Exhibit No. 1" is too slightly built to be associated with Oswald; is -that correct? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He is stocky. Has what they call an athletic build. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this other fellow taller than Oswald or shorter than -Oswald? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Very close. Not taller. Probably same height; maybe a -little smaller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much would you say the Mexican weighed, approximately? - -Mr. ANDREWS. About 160, 165. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say he was of medium build or heavy build? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, stocky. He could go to "Fist City" pretty good if he -had to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old would you say he was? - -Mr. ANDREWS. About 26. Hard to tell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he was wearing when he came into the -office with Oswald on these different occasions? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Normally, different colored silk pongee shirts, which are -pretty rare, you know, for the heat, or what appeared to be pongee -material. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to this other fellow? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, he talked Spanish, and all I told him was poco poco. -That was it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I can understand a little. I can if you speak it. I can -read it. That's about all. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which -has been marked "Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that -is the same man that was in your office and the same man you say was -passing out literature in the street. - -Mr. ANDREWS. It appears to be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this Mexican again if you saw him? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that you wouldn't be able -to recognize him again if you saw him? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Probably did. Been a long time. There's three people I am -going to find: One of them is the real guy that killed the President; -the Mexican; and Clay Bertrand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you mean to suggest by that statement that you have -considerable doubt in your mind that Oswald killed the President? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I know good and well he did not. With that weapon, he -couldn't have been capable of making three controlled shots in that -short time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are basing your opinion on reports that you have -received over news media as to how many shots were fired in what period -of time; is that correct? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I am basing my opinion on five years as an ordnanceman -in the Navy. You can lean into those things, and with throwing the -bolts--if I couldn't do it myself, 8 hours a day, doing this for a -living, constantly on the range, I know this civilian couldn't do it. -He might have been a sharp marksman at one time, but if you don't lean -into that rifle and don't squeeze and control consistently, your brain -can tell you how to do it, but you don't have the capability. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have used a pronoun in this last series of -statements, the pronoun "it." You are making certain assumptions as to -what actually happened, or you have a certain notion in your mind as to -what happened based on material you read in the newspaper? - -Mr. ANDREWS. It doesn't make any difference. What you have to do is -lean into a weapon, and, to fire three shots controlled with accuracy, -this boy couldn't do it. Forget the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You base that judgment on the fact that, in your own -experience, it is difficult to do that sort of thing? - -Mr. ANDREWS. You have to stay with it. You just don't pick up a rifle -or a pistol or whatever weapon you are using and stay proficient with -it. You have to know what you are doing. You have to be a conniver. -This boy could have connived the deal, but I think he is a patsy. -Somebody else pulled the trigger. - -Mr. LIEBELER. However, as we have indicated, it is your opinion. You -don't have any evidence other than what you have already told us -about your surmise and opinions about the rifle on which to base that -statement; is that correct? If you do, I want to know what it is. - -Mr. ANDREWS. If I did, I would give it to you. It's just taking the -5 years and thinking about it a bit. I have fired as much as 40,000 -rounds of ammo a day for 7 days a week. You get pretty good with it as -long as you keep firing. Then I have gone back after 2 weeks. I used to -be able to take a shotgun, go on a skeet, and pop 100 out of 100. After -2 weeks, I could only pop 60 of them. I would have to start shooting -again, same way with the rifle and machineguns. Every other person I -knew, same thing happened to them. You just have to stay at it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see Oswald at any time subsequent to that -time you saw him in the street handing out literature? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I have never seen him since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what month that was, approximately? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Summertime. Before July. I think the last time would be -around--the last could have been, I guess, around the 10th of July. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Around the 10th of July? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe it was after that. It could have been -before, but not after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned this Mexican that accompanied Oswald -to your office. Have you seen him at any time subsequent to the last -time Oswald came into your office? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately how long a period of time -elapsed from the last time Oswald came into your office to the last -time you saw him in the street handing out literature? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I would say about 6 weeks, just guessing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have never seen the Mexican at any other time -since then? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. He just couldn't have disappeared because the Mexican -community here is pretty small. You can squeeze it pretty good, the -Latin community. He is not known around here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made an attempt to find him since the -assassination? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't had any success? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. Not too many places they can go not being noticed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else with Oswald that day you saw him -handing out literature? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, people standing there with him. Whether they were with -him or not, I wouldn't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear that there was anybody else helping him -hand out literature? - -Mr. ANDREWS. There was one person, but they had no literature. They -weren't giving anything out. Let me see that picture of that little -bitty guy, that weasel before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. [handing picture to witness]. This is Bringuier Exhibit -No. 1. - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; he resembled this boy, but it is not him. It is a pale -face instead of a Latin. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Oswald on the street that day, did he -give you any idea who was paying him to hand this stuff out? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; he just said, "It's a job." - -Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is, of course, that you are here under -subpena and subpena duces tecum, asking you to bring with you any -records that you might have in your office indicating or reflecting -Oswald's visit, and my understanding is that you indicated that you -were unable to find any such records. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Right. My office was rifled shortly after I got out of the -hospital, and I talked with the FBI people. We couldn't find anything -prior to it. Whoever was kind enough to mess my office up, going -through it, we haven't found anything since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have caused a thorough search to be made of your -office for these records? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't been able to come up with anything? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time after the assassination when you -had some further involvement with Oswald, or at least an apparent -involvement with Oswald; as I understand it? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; nothing at all with Oswald. I was in Hotel Dieu, and -the phone rang and a voice I recognized as Clay Bertrand asked me if I -would go to Dallas and Houston--I think--Dallas, I guess, wherever it -was that this boy was being held--and defend him. I told him I was sick -in the hospital. If I couldn't go, I would find somebody that could go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told him you were sick in the hospital and what? - -Mr. ANDREWS. That's where I was when the call came through. It came -through the hospital switchboard. I said that I wasn't in shape enough -to go to Dallas and defend him and I would see what I could do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now what can you tell us about this Clay Bertrand? You -met him prior to that time? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I had seen Clay Bertrand once some time ago, probably a -couple of years. He's the one who calls in behalf of gay kids normally, -either to obtain bond or parole for them. I would assume that he was -the one that originally sent Oswald and the gay kids, these Mexicanos, -to the office because I had never seen those people before at all. They -were just walk-ins. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you think you saw Clay Bertrand some time -about 2 years prior to the time you received this telephone call that -you have just told us about? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he is mostly a voice on the phone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you receive the telephone call from Clay -Bertrand asking you to defend Oswald? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. It was a Friday or a Saturday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately following the assassination? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't know about that. I didn't know. Yes; I did. -I guess I did because I was--they told me I was squirrelly in the -hospital. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had pneumonia; is that right? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And as I understand it, you were under heavy sedation at -that time in connection with your treatment for pneumonia? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; this is what happened: After I got the call, I called -my secretary at her home and asked her if she had remembered Lee Harvey -Oswald's file. Of course, she didn't remember, and I had to tell her -about all the kooky kids. She thought we had a file in the office. I -would assume that he would have called subsequent to this boy's arrest. -I am pretty sure it was before the assassination. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean before the assassination--don't you mean -before Oswald had been shot? After the assassination and before Oswald -had been shot? - -Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's arrest and prior to his---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. His death? - -Mr. ANDREWS. His death. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now my recollection from reviewing reports from the FBI -is that you first advised the FBI of this, telling them that you recall -that Clay Bertrand had called you at some time between 6 o'clock and -9 o'clock in the evening and spoke to you about this matter. Do you -remember telling the FBI about that? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I remember speaking with them. The exact words, I do not, -but that's probably correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what time approximately that Clay -Bertrand did call you? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I will tell you: They feed around 4:30. By the time I got -fed, it was about 5 o'clock. They picked the tray up. So that's about -the right time. It's around that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that after Clay Bertrand called you, you -called your secretary and asked her if she remembered the Oswald file; -is that correct? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; she didn't remember Oswald at all. She knows that -occasionally these people walk in and out of the office and she had -remembered something, but nothing of any value. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember that after you got out of the -hospital, you discussed with your secretary the telephone call that you -made to her at home? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recall that she said that she remembered that -you called her at approximately 4 o'clock on the afternoon of November -23, 1963? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now have you--let's take it one step further: Do you -also recall the fact that your private investigator spent most of that -afternoon with you in your hospital room? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was there with you? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; Preston M. Davis. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what time he left? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been before you called your secretary or -afterwards? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before you called? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you called your secretary? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Let's see. He wasn't there when I made the phone call. He -wasn't there when Clay Bertrand called me, I am pretty sure, because he -would have remembered it if I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed it and he doesn't, in fact, remember that -you received the telephone call from Clay Bertrand? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He wasn't there. While he was there, we received no call -from Clay Bertrand or no call concerning the office or business because -I would have talked to him about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he left before you called your secretary? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I think he left around chow time, which, I think, is -around 4 o'clock. I could be wrong. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now after giving this time sequence that we have talked -about here the consideration that I am sure you have after discussing -it with the FBI, have you come up with any solution in your own mind -to the apparent problems that exist here? That is to say, that your -recollection is that you called your secretary after you received the -call from Clay Bertrand and you called your secretary at 4 o'clock, -which would indicate that you must have received the call from Clay -Bertrand prior to 4 o'clock, but you did not receive the call from -Mr. Bertrand while Mr. Davis was there, and he left at approximately -4 o'clock or shortly before you called your secretary, in addition to -which, you first recall receiving the call from Clay Bertrand some time -between 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the evening. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, the time factor I can't help you with. It is -impossible. But I feel this: I wouldn't have called my secretary--if -I couldn't get her to verify it, I would tell you that I was smoking -weed. You know, sailing out on cloud 9. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But, in fact, she did verify the fact that you did call -her? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I often thought it was a nightmare or a dream, but -it isn't. It's just that I can't place--other than what I told Regis -Kennedy and John Rice, the exact time I can't help you on. But if it -hadn't been for calling her and asking her---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. To look up the Oswald file or if she remembered the -Oswald file? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I would just say I have a pretty vivid imagination -and let's just forget it. Anything other than the law practice--I would -say that what Regis suspects is that I was full of that dope, but I -normally take certain steps, and this is the way I would have done it -is what I did. I called her. Had Davis been there when the call came -in, Davis would have been told, and he would have left the hospital, -went down to the office, and shook the office down for the file, and -called me from there before he went home. I know it couldn't have come -in while he was there. The only media of time that I can use is either -medication or food. Of course, being fat, I like food. I wasn't much -interested in food. They weren't feeding me too much, and I am pretty -sure it was after medication and food and the tray had been picked up -that the call came in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, they fed you more than once up there? - -Mr. ANDREWS. They feed three times a day, but they don't feed you -enough to keep a sparrow alive. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, you are not able to clarify for us -the sequence of what happened? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, the sequence of events had to be this: Davis spent -Saturday afternoon with me. He probably left just before chow, and then -I ate, and the phone call came in some time after chow. I am positive -it wasn't as late as 9 o'clock. I think the latest it could have been -is 6, but Miss Springer says I called her some time around 4, 4:30--I -don't know which. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Miss Springer is your secretary? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you recall talking to an FBI agent, Regis L. -Kennedy, and Carl L. Schlaeger on November 25? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember--Kennedy, yes; Schlaeger, no. I don't -even know if he was in the same room. I don't think I have even seen -him, much less talk to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Kennedy was; yes? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They usually go around in pairs? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, they work in teams, so he's got to have been there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now Kennedy came and visited you at the hospital; is that -correct? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now---- - -Mr. ANDREWS. I remember that pretty good because I called the Feebees, -and the guy says to put the phone, you know, and nothing happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Feebees? - -Mr. ANDREWS. That's what we call the Federal guys. All of a sudden, -like a big hurricane, here they come. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling him at that time that you thought -that Clay Bertrand had come into the office with Oswald when Oswald had -been in the office earlier last spring? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Bertrand ever in the office with Oswald? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Not that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a picture in your mind of this Clay Bertrand? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, I ran up on that rat about 6 weeks ago and he spooked, -ran in the street. I would have beat him with a chain if I had caught -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this: When I was down here in April, -before I talked to you about this thing, and I was going to take your -deposition at that time, but we didn't make arrangements, in your -continuing discussions with the FBI, you finally came to the conclusion -that Clay Bertrand was a figment of your imagination? - -Mr. ANDREWS. That's what the Feebees put on. I know that the two -Feebees are going to put these people on the street looking, and I -can't find the guy, and I am not going to tie up all the agents on -something that isn't that solid. I told them, "Write what you want, -that I am nuts. I don't care." They were running on the time factor, -and the hills were shook up plenty to get it, get it, get it. I -couldn't give it to them. I have been playing cops and robbers with -them. You can tell when the steam is on. They are on you like the -plague. They never leave. They are like cancer. Eternal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the description of the situation? - -Mr. ANDREWS. It was my decision if they were to stay there. If I decide -yes, they stay. If I decide no, they go. So I told them, "Close your -file and go some place else." That's the real reason why it was done. I -don't know what they wrote in the report, but that's the real reason. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now subsequent to that time, however, you actually ran -into Clay Bertrand in the street? - -Mr. ANDREWS. About 6 weeks ago. I am trying to think of the name of -this bar. That's where this rascal bums out. I was trying to get past -him so I could get a nickel in the phone and call the Feebees or John -Rice, but he saw me and spooked and ran. I haven't seen him since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him that day? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; if I would have got close enough to talk to him, I -would have grabbed him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What does this guy look like? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He is about 5 feet 8 inches. Got sandy hair, blue eyes, -ruddy complexion. Must weigh about 165, 170, 175. He really took off, -that rascal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He recognized you? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He had to because if he would have let me get to that -phone and make the call, he would be in custody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You wanted to get hold of this guy and make him available -to the FBI for interview, or Mr. Rice of the Secret Service? - -Mr. ANDREWS. What I wanted to do and should have done is crack him in -the head with a bottle, but I figured I would be a good, law-abiding -citizen and call them and let them grab him, but I made the biggest -mistake of the century. I should have grabbed him right there. I -probably will never find him again. He has been bugging me ever since -this happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now before you ran into Clay Bertrand in the street on -this day, did you have a notion in your mind what he looked like? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I had seen him before one time to recognize him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw him that day, he appeared to you as he had -before when you recognized him? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He hasn't changed any appearance, I don't think. Maybe a -little fatter, maybe a little skinnier. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I have a rather lengthy report of an interview that -Mr. Kennedy had with you on December 5, 1963, in which he reports you -as stating that you had a mental picture of Clay Bertrand as being -approximately 6 feet 1 inch to 6 feet 2 inches in height, brown hair, -and well dressed. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now this description is different, at least in terms of -height of the man, than the one you have just given us of Clay Bertrand. - -Mr. ANDREWS. But, you know, I don't play Boy Scouts and measure them. -I have only seen this fellow twice in my life. I don't think there is -that much in the description. There may be some to some artist, but to -me, there isn't that much difference. Might be for you all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think you said he was 5 feet 8 inches before. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, I can't give you any better because this time I was -looking for the fellow, he was sitting down. I am just estimating. You -meet a guy 2 years ago, you meet him, period. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which time was he sitting down? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He was standing up first time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you met him on the street the second time when -you---- - -Mr. ANDREWS. No, he was in a barroom. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was sitting in a bar when you saw him 6 weeks ago? - -Mr. ANDREWS. A table at the right-hand side. I go there every now and -then spooking for him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What's the name of the bar you saw him in that day, do -you remember? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Cosimo's, used to be. Little freaky joint. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, if you didn't see him standing up on that -day---- - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't have any basis on which to change your -mental picture of this man in regard to his height from the first one -that you had? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am at a loss to understand why you told Agent Kennedy -on December 5 that he was 6 feet 1 to 6 feet 2 and now you have told us -that he was 5 feet 8 when at no time did you see the man standing up. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Because, I guess, the first time--and I am guessing now---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is this fellow a homosexual, do you say? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Bisexual. What they call a swinging cat. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't seen him at any time since that day? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I haven't seen him since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now have you had your office searched for any records -relating to Clay Bertrand? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you found anything? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; nothing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has this fellow Bertrand sent you business in the past? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Prior to--I guess the last time would be February of 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And mostly he refers, I think you said, these gay kids, -is that right? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In discussing this matter with your private detective, -Mr. Davis, and Miss Springer, your secretary, have you asked them -whether or not they have any recollection of ever having seen Oswald in -the office? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Davis does; Springer doesn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Davis does have a recollection? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he recalls. He usually stays with me until about -closing time. We review whatever he is doing, and he remembers them as -a group. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So he was there then the first time they were there? The -only time that he was with a group is the first time, is that right? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Miss Springer and Mr. Davis the -whereabouts or any recollection they might have about Clay Bertrand? - -Mr. ANDREWS. They weren't with me, I believe, at the time I knew -Bertrand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed it with them? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; but they weren't employed by me at the time I knew -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So they have no recollection of Bertrand? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald came into your office, of course, he told you -what his name was, didn't he? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Lee Oswald. I don't know whether that's his name or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But that's what he told you? - -Mr. ANDREWS. That's what he told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing or mentioning his name to -Davis at any time prior to November 23, 1963? - -Mr. ANDREWS. What the procedure is--I am in a different office now than -I was then, and it was a very small office, and they would come into -it--well, what I would call my office--and they just had the reception -room out in the front, and Davis would go out there, and on those -matters, it's not a matter that he would be discussing, but probably -some words passed as to the swishing and the characteristics that they -had, but other than that in the business, unless something is assigned -to him, he knows nothing in that office unless it is assigned to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you say you probably did not mention Oswald's name to -Davis? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I probably did not, other than we commented on the group -in general, but none of the business that was involved or any names. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it an extraordinary thing for a bunch of gay kids to -come into your office like that, or did they come from time to time? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Well, let's see. Last week there were six of them in -there. Depends on how bad the police are rousing them. They shoo them -in. My best customers are the police. They shoo them into the office. -God bless the police. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know a man by the name of Kerry Thornley as -one of these gay kids? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of Thornley? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; I represent them and that's about all there is to it. -When they owe me money, I know where to go grab them, and that's about -as far as if goes. Is he supposed to be down here? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thornley? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I can find out if he ever made the scene here real -easy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; he is not in New Orleans, I don't think, at the -moment. When Oswald told you about his discharge, did he tell you what -branch of the service he had been in? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he got discharged? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a discharge he had? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He told me he was dishonorably discharged. That's what I -call a yellow sheet discharge. I told him I needed his serial number, -the service he was in, the approximate time he got discharged, and, I -think, $15 or $25, I forget which, and to take the service, his rate -or rank, the serial number, and to write to the Adjutant General for -the transcript of the proceedings that washed him out so that they -could be examined and see if there was any method of reopening or -reconsideration on the file. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not tell you any of those things? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; he said he would come back, and he came back, but I -still didn't get his serial number and I still didn't get the money. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that he stated he had a -dishonorable discharge as opposed to some other kind of discharge? Do -you have a specific recollection on that? - -Mr. ANDREWS. We call them in the Navy, B.C.D.'s and I associated that. -He never mentioned the specific type discharge. It was one that was -other than honorable, as we would put it in the legal sense. I just -assumed it was a B.C.D. if he was in the Marines or Navy. If he was in -the Army, it's a yellow discharge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you if he was working at that time or if he -had a job when he first came into your office? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Never asked him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he associate his other than honorable discharge with -difficulty in obtaining employment? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I just don't remember. He had a reason why he wanted it -reopened. What, I don't recall. He had a reason. I don't recall. He -mentioned a reason, but I don't recall. I was trying to remember where -they were seated to see if that would help, but no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me approximately how tall Oswald was. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, about 5 feet 6 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And about how much did he weigh? - -Mr. ANDREWS. About 135, 140. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Do you have -anything else that you would like to add? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I wish I could be more specific, that's all. This is my -impression, for whatever it is worth, of Clay Bertrand: His connections -with Oswald I don't know at all. I think he is a lawyer without a brief -case. That's my opinion. He sends the kids different places. Whether -this boy is associated with Lee Oswald or not, I don't know, but I -would say, when I met him about 6 weeks ago when I ran up on him and he -ran away from me, he could be running because he owes me money, or he -could be running because they have been squeezing the quarter pretty -good looking for him while I was in the hospital, and somebody might -have passed the word he was hot and I was looking for him, but I have -never been able to figure out the reason why he would call me, and -the only other part of this thing that I understand, but apparently I -haven't been able to communicate, is I called Monk Zelden on a Sunday -at the N.O.A.C. and asked Monk if he would go over--be interested in -a retainer and go over to Dallas and see about that boy. I thought -I called Monk once. Monk says we talked twice. I don't remember the -second. It's all one conversation with me. Only thing I do remember -about it, while I was talking with Monk, he said, Don't worry about -it. Your client just got shot. That was the end of the case. Even if -he was a bona fide client, I never did get to him; somebody else got -to him before I did. Other than that, that's the whole thing, but this -boy Bertrand has been bugging me ever since. I will find him sooner or -later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does Bertrand owe you money? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I ain't looking for him for that. I want to find -out why he called me on behalf of this boy after the President was -assassinated. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How come Bertrand owes you money? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I have done him some legal work that he has failed to pay -the office for. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? - -Mr. ANDREWS. That's in a period of years that I have--like you are -Bertrand. You call up and ask me to go down and get Mr. X out. If Mr. X -doesn't pay on those kinds of calls, Bertrand has a guarantee for the -payment of appearance. One or two of these kids had skipped. I had to -go pay the penalty, which was a lot of trouble. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to hold Bertrand for that? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to you to be gay? - -Mr. ANDREWS. You can't tell. I couldn't say. He swang with the kids. He -didn't swish, but birds of a feather flock together. I don't know any -squares that run with them. They may go down to look. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say he didn't swish, what do you mean by that? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He is not effeminate; his voice isn't squeaky; he didn't -walk like or talk like a girl; he walks and talks like a man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about the way he walked? Was -there anything striking about the way he carried himself? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I never paid attention. I never watched him walk other -than into and out of the office. There's nothing that would draw my -attention to anything out of the ordinary, but I just assumed that he -knew these people and was running with them. They had no reason to -come. The three gay kids he was with, they were ostentatious. They were -what we call swishers. You can just look at them. All they had to do -was open their mouth. That was it. Walk, they can swing better than -Sammy Kaye. They do real good. With those pronounced ones, you never -know what the relationship is with anyone else with them, but I have -no way of telling whether he is gay or not, other than he came in with -what they call here queens. That's about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen any of these people since that first -day they came into your office with Oswald, that first day and when you -saw them down at the police station? - -Mr. ANDREWS. The three queens? The three gay boys? No; I have never -seen them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There were just three of them? - -Mr. ANDREWS. The Latin type. Mexicanos will crop their hair and a Latin -won't, so I assume he is a Mex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether there were five of them that came into the -office? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Five. The only other thing that shook me to my toes--you -have the other part--the Secret Service brought me some things. They -don't have the complete photograph. They have another photograph with -the two Realpey sisters. They are actually in the office, and that -shook me down to my toes pretty good. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. The picture you refer to -might be Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Is that the one? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes, this is it. Victoria Realpey-Plaza and her sister -Marguerite Realpey-Plaza, and I can't recall this young lady's name -here at all [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to the three women who are standing---- - -Mr. ANDREWS. The one facing, standing as you look at it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's the one you can't identify? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I have her file in the office. Uncle is a warden at -the Parish Prison here in New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are referring to the three women that are -standing at the right side of Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B? - -Mr. ANDREWS. The girl carrying the pocketbook. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's the one whose name you can't remember at the -moment? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now this little fellow standing on the far left side of -the picture, have you ever seen him before? Is he one of those gay boys -who were in the office? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; these were all Americanos, these boys. He may be, but -he is Latin looking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He looks like a Latin? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Right. This boy should be able to be found. I wanted to -look for him, but I didn't have a picture of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is that? - -Mr. ANDREWS. The one you just asked me about. If you put some circulars -around to have the Latin American people squeezed gently, he has got to -be found. They are very clannish. There are only certain places they -go. Somebody has to remember him. He can't just come into New Orleans -and disappear. As long as he walks the street, he has to eat and he -has to have some place to sleep and--but I didn't have a picture of -him, and nobody--you just can't do it. But a lot of water has run under -the stream. He may or may not be here, but it wouldn't be too hard to -locate him, you know, with the proper identification. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your friends down the street have been trying to -find him and haven't come up with him yet. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Debrueys? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. ANDREWS. Sometimes the stools on that are not too good. They need -Latin stools for that boy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you just indicate that you would like to find Mr. -Bertrand and he did run off? Did you see him run off? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I chased him, but I couldn't go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was when you saw him 6 weeks ago? - -Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; this barroom is right adjacent to--the street--as you -go in, there are two entrances, one on the block side and one on the -corner. I had no more idea of finding him than jumping off the bridge. -I went in there hoping, and the hope came through. I was so surprised -to see him there. I kept working my way there to go to the front when -he recognized me and he sprinted out the door on the side of the street -and was gone. I had to go past him to go to the phone. I should have -conked him with the beer bottle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He took off as soon as he saw you? - -Mr. ANDREWS. No; but I was moving to go to the phone. He thought I was -moving towards him. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. -453-A, and ask you if you can recognize anybody in that picture. - -Mr. ANDREWS. The one that has a brief case under his arm, full face -towards the looker, appears to be Lee Oswald. This boy back here -[indicating] appears to be familiar, but I would have to blow his face -up to be sure. He is in between. See, this one here [indicating]? I -have never seen this picture before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Between Oswald, who has the cross mark over his head, and -the man who has the arrow over his head? - -Mr. ANDREWS. He is a local boy here, a face I recall. It would take me -a while to place it, but the face appears to be familiar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen this picture before, is that correct? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service and the FBI have shown you various -pictures, but you don't recall this one? - -Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall seeing that one. There was one of a series -where--one of an attorney in town was there--where we all knew him. -They may have shown me this, but I don't remember. We used to have a -club back in 1946 called Lock (?) Fraternity, and he resembles a boy -that was a member. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Andrews. -I want to thank you very much for coming in and I appreciate the -cooperation you have given us. - -Mr. ANDREWS. I only wish I could do better. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF EVARISTO RODRIGUEZ - -The testimony of Evaristo Rodriguez, was taken on July 21, 1964, at -the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, -La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. Special Agent Richard E. Logan, interpreter, Federal Bureau -of Investigation, was present. - - -Evaristo Rodriguez, having been first duly sworn, was examined and -testified, through the interpreter, Mr. Logan, as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's -Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have -been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to -authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November -29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney -present during your questioning. You are not required to answer -questions that you think might be harmful to yourself to answer. You -may state the reasons why you don't want to answer them if you wish to -do that. You are entitled to 3-days' notice under the rules. I assume -you are prepared to proceed with the testimony at this time since you -are here, and I assume that since you do not have an attorney, you are -prepared to go ahead without one. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am ready to answer all the questions. I have been -advised of my rights as you have stated them to me, and I am ready to -answer any questions that I can help you with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Evaristo? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ [writing]. Gibara, Oriente, Cuba. That's the province, -Oriente, and the city is Gibara. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. July 26, 1941. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live now? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. 1239 Chartres Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still a citizen of Cuba? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in the United States? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I came here in 1962 on a boat. I was first here in 1962. -I was on a boat. And I went to Costa Rica and a few other countries. I -came back here in January of 1963. I have been here since January of -1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Cuba? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. December of 1961. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to leave Cuba? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I left Cuba because they were about to put me in the -Armed Forces. I didn't care to. I wasn't in agreement with the present -government, so I took off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you get out? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. On a boat. I came out on a small boat, a small merchant -ship. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work on that boat then or where did you go? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I had been working on this boat for about 3 years and 2 -months. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the boat that sunk? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. It's not the same boat that sunk, but it was a boat of -the same company, Barcelona Co., that sunk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Eventually, one of your boats did sink and you came then -here to New Orleans, is that correct, and that's when you stayed in the -United States? - -(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) - -Mr. LOGAN. I am going to have to ask him a couple of things on this -because as I get it in my mind, it seems that he was on a boat. - -(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. First of all, I was on this boat called the _Barcelona_ -in the Pacific, and this boat sunk, and we were transferred to another -boat, the _San Jose_, that first traveled to some other countries, and -then when I got to New Orleans, this is where I asked for my political -asylum. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am a bartender at nights at the Habana Bar at 117 -Decatur Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked there? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. About 1 year and 3 months. I have worked there about 1 -year and 3 months. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Orest Pena? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ruperto Pena? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ [answering directly]. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Carlos Bringuier? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ [answering directly]. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have information that you saw a man whom you believe -to be Lee Harvey Oswald in the bar some time in 1963. Would you tell us -all about that? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. These men came into the bar, two men came into the -bar, one of them which I learned later through TV and pictures and -newspapers was Oswald. These men came into the bar. One of them spoke -Spanish and the one who spoke Spanish ordered the tequila, so I told -him that the price of the tequila was 50 cents. I brought him the -tequila and a little water. The man protested at the price, thought it -was too high, and he made some statement to the effect that he was a -Cuban, but an American citizen, and that surely--words to the effect -that surely the owner of this bar must be a capitalist, and we had a -little debate about the price, but that passed over. Then the man who I -later learned was Oswald ordered a lemonade. Now I didn't know what to -give him because we don't have lemonades in the bar. So I asked Orest -Pena how I should fix a lemonade. Orest told me to take a little of -this lemon flavoring, squirt in some water, and charge him 25 cents for -the lemonade, and that's the incident surrounding that situation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know the names of these men at that time, did -you? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't know the names of them then; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did both of the men speak Spanish or just one of them? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Only the man that appeared to be a Latin or Cuban spoke -Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the man who you later thought to be Oswald did not -speak Spanish; is that right? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; the man I later learned to be Oswald did not speak -Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time of the day did this happen? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. This happened about 2:30 or between 2:30 and 3 o'clock -in the morning. I am not certain of the exact hour, but that's the best -of my recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were either of these men drunk? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man I later learned to be Oswald had his arm around -the Latin-appearing man, and Oswald appeared to be somewhat drunk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that someone was a Cuban but an -American citizen. Were you referring to the man that was with Oswald, -or Orest Pena, the owner of the bar? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. What I did was, the Latin-appearing man asked me if the -owner of the bar was a Cuban, and I told him that he was a Cuban, but -an American citizen. That's the way that was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to say the nationality of the man that was -with Oswald? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am not able to state what his exact nationality was, -but he appeared to be a Latin, and that's about as far as I can go. -He could have been a Mexican; he could have been a Cuban, but at this -point, I don't recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did this man look like? - -Mr. LOGAN. You want a description of him? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; how old? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He was a man about 28 years old, very hairy arms, dark -hair on his arms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he? - -Mr. LOGAN. He says he was about my height. That's about 5 feet 8. He is -about the same build of man as I am, short and rather stocky, wide. He -was a stocky man with broad shoulders, about 5 feet 8 inches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he weighed approximately? - -Mr. LOGAN. He probably hit around 155. He doesn't remember the exact -weight, but he would guess around the same weight as I appear to be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So he weighed about 155 pounds or so? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he taller or shorter than Oswald? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Just a little taller than Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he heavier than Oswald or lighter? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He was huskier and appeared to weigh more than Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what color his hair was? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He had a high forehead, you might say. He had this back -here, the hairline was right back in here like this [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He had a receding hairline in the front? - -Mr. LOGAN. He says it's not like yours and mine; it's rather receding -on the sides toward--at the front. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now how tall would you estimate Oswald was? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't get a good look of Oswald standing up straight -because Oswald was drunk and he was more or less in a sagging position -most of the time. Therefore, I wasn't able to get a good look, but he -was a little shorter than 5 feet 8, the height of the other man. He was -a little shorter than that, maybe 5 feet 7 or 5 feet 6, but I couldn't -tell for sure because Oswald wasn't standing up too straight at the -time. In fact, Oswald came in and draped over the table after he sat -down. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald become sick? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He became sick on the table and on the floor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then did he go in the street and continue being sick? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The Latin-appearing man helped him to the street where -he continued to be sick. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was Oswald wearing? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Oswald as I recall, had on a dark pair of pants and a -short-sleeved white shirt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie on? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Oswald had what appeared to be a small bow tie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. But the thing is, Oswald's collar was open and this -thing was hanging from one side of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was a clip-on bow tie? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. It was a clip-on thing as I recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did this happen; what month? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I can't remember exactly, but I know it was just about 1 -year ago, and I presume it was in August. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Orest Pena went to Puerto Rico? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember when Orest went to Puerto Rico. I don't -recall when Orest went to Puerto Rico. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald in the bar before Orest went to Puerto Rico or -afterward or while he was gone? Do you remember specifically? Do you -remember that he did go to Puerto Rico? - -(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest just said he was going on vacation and didn't tell -me where he was going. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when he went on vacation? Think of it -in comparison to the time that Oswald was in the bar. Was Oswald in -the bar before Orest went on vacation or afterward or while he was on -vacation. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So he couldn't have been on vacation at the time? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was because at that -time, I recall I had to ask Orest how to make the lemonade for Oswald, -so---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now think again, and think if this was before Orest went -on vacation or afterward. - -Mr. LOGAN. The incident, you mean, in the bar? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember whether it was before or after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested and -went to jail? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I remember him being arrested, but I don't remember--I -remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested, but--I was on the street -and I saw Carlos. I saw Carlos Bringuier talking to the policeman at -the time that he was arrested, but I didn't see him get into the -police car because I took off. I left because I thought I might be -following the same path. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you walking when you saw Carlos arrested? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I was in a car passing in the street when I saw Carlos -talking with the police. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you in the car? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest Pena had driven me to the doctor, and this is -how we happened to be in the car together when we passed going to the -Habana Bar when we saw Carlos. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest see Bringuier that day? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't know whether Orest saw him or not. Orest was -doing the driving. I am not sure whether he saw him or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald in the bar before or after you saw Carlos in -the street with the policeman? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am not sure, but it was either a couple of days before -Oswald was in the bar or a couple of days after, but I can't remember -well enough to be exact. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it was about that time that you saw Oswald in the -bar; is that right? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes; it was about the same time, same time in relation -to days, you know, that same period. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Do you remember whether you and Orest saw Carlos in -the street before Orest went on vacation or afterward? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember whether it was before Orest went on -vacation or after that I saw Carlos in the street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there? That's right, -is it not? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. He was in the bar when Oswald was there. - -Mr. LOGAN. He says he is trying to remember the best he can. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is doing very well. - -Mr. LOGAN. He is saying that the time passes and it is hard for him to -remember everything, but he is trying to remember the best he can. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest see Oswald? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't see, I don't believe, that Orest saw Oswald. -Orest was in the back part of the bar near the telephone, and Oswald -and his friend were sitting at a table near the cigarette machine, -which is in the right-hand side of the front part of the bar, and -Oswald's back was to the place where Orest was at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest come up and talk to them when you had this -argument about the lemonade and tequila? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; Orest never talked to Oswald or the other man during -this altercation about the tequila. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, Orest never came up or -looked at them or saw them while they were there? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. To the best of my recollection, Orest Pena never saw -these two men up close, and, as a matter of fact, Orest was talking on -the telephone, and when I asked him about the lemonade, he just told me -what to do and didn't pay any more attention to it than that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody else with Carlos and the policeman at -the time you saw Carlos on the street with the policeman as you have -already told us? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. At the time I saw Carlos Bringuier on the street with -the police, I didn't see anybody being put into the police car, but -I remember slightly that there were probably three other people in -the police car at the time, but I don't know who they were, and I was -passing in a car, of course, and didn't have an opportunity to pay any -attention to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see Oswald there? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't see Oswald at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Celso Hernandez? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't know him. I am acquainted with Bringuier. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think that the man you saw in the bar, -as you have told us, was Oswald? - -Mr. LOGAN. I am going to have to break this down for him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say so far? - -Mr. LOGAN. He is answering an entirely different question, something -about Bringuier. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think we should put this on the record. - -Mr. LOGAN. Let me find out if he understood the question first because -the thing is, I think he has got something else in mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is the problem. - -Mr. LOGAN. I will get that out of him, too, the part you want. - -(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) - -Mr. LOGAN. No, no. He doesn't get the message, and I am sure I am -saying it plain enough. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the name of this man? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The first time that I knew that the man in the bar was -Oswald was--the first time that I realized that the man in the bar was -Oswald was after President Kennedy had been assassinated and I saw -Oswald's picture in the paper with his name and so forth, and that's -how I first became aware or first came to realize that the man who had -been in the bar with the Latin-appearing man was the same person as -Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this with Orest Pena after you became -aware that the man in the bar was the same man as the man whom we think -shot President Kennedy? And specifically, I want to ask you if Orest -Pena recognized Oswald's picture independently from you or if he only -became aware that it was Oswald that was in the bar after you called it -to his attention. - -Mr. LOGAN. All right. I will ask him the first one and then I will ask -him the second one. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The first question is that I actually heard the news of -the President's death on the radio, and they still hadn't given out the -name of the assassin, who they thought it was. So later on when it came -out in the newspaper, I saw the picture in the newspaper of Oswald, and -then I pointed out to Orest that this was the fellow who was in the bar -and had the argument about the lemonade or about the tequila, rather, -and not in the bar at the time because the other fellow argued about -the tequila. - -Mr. LOGAN. Now what was that number two again? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest mention it to you first by himself? Did he know -that that man had been in the bar, or did he only come to think that -after you had pointed out to him it was the same man that you thought -had bought the lemonade? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; Orest had never seen this man whose picture was in -the paper that I recognized as being the man in the bar and who the -paper described as Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell Bringuier that the man that was in the -bar with Oswald was being sought by the FBI, being looked for by the -FBI? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I told Bringuier that Oswald had been in the bar. This -is after, of course, I discovered that it was Oswald. But I don't -remember ever telling Bringuier that the FBI was looking for these -people or either one of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, you did not tell -Bringuier that the FBI was looking for this man that was with Oswald? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I never told Bringuier that the FBI was looking for the -man that was with Oswald. I only mentioned to Bringuier that Oswald was -the same one that had been in there that had been drinking lemonade in -that bar previously. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in saying that the only times that you have -been in New Orleans are, one, the period of time beginning in January -of 1963 to the present time, and once before at one prior time, the -exact date of which I do not recall, but you tell me. Those two times. -Are there any other times you have been in New Orleans? Let me rephrase -the question: You came to New Orleans in January of 1963 and have been -here ever since, and you were in New Orleans at least once prior to -that time. Tell me when that was. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I got on a boat in Cuba. We went to Mexico. Then we went -to New York with sugar. Then we went to Norfolk, and from Norfolk, we -went to Bermuda, and then to the Dominican Republic. - -Mr. LOGAN. Unless you want that. I just told him that whole route was -not important if he could come down to the exact month he was in New -Orleans. Here's the thing: He says now that the very first time he was -ever in New Orleans was on a boat that came from Cuba in April of 1959. -He was working on a boat that landed in New Orleans in April of 1959. -Now he doesn't remember the exact month in 1961 that he was in New -Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever in New Orleans in 1962? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. To the best of my recollection, I was here in May of -1962 where I caught the ship _Barcelona_. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Orest Pena at that time? - -(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) - -Mr. LOGAN. As I get it, he knew Orest not well, but he knew him. Had -seen him at the bar, around the bars. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to him in May of 1962 in his bar -here in New Orleans? - -Mr. LOGAN. He remembers probably he talked to Orest during May of 1962. -I asked him what they talked about. He said, "Like small talk about -boats, about this, about that. Nothing in particular." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in the bar in May of 1962 with Orest Pena at any -time when Orest Pena got into a fight or big argument with another man? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember Orest being in a fight with anybody in -the bar in 1962, in May of 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest Pena ever say to you in words or in substance -that Castro should have been notified about something as soon as -possible, and particularly, in May of 1962? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember him saying anything like that. - -Mr. LOGAN. What he was telling me in all this flurry was that Orest, -as far as political situations, is happy with his life here in the -United States, and I have asked him three times if he remembers Orest -making any statement like that, that Castro should have been notified -immediately, and he says he has never heard him say anything like that. -He doesn't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember any fight that Orest got into with -another man? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember anything about a fight or a discussion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right [handing picture to witness]. I show you a -picture that has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if -you can identify anybody in that picture. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I identify Oswald as the man with the X on him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I draw your attention particularly to the man standing -to Oswald's right, and the second man behind him, who appears to have -leaflets in his hand, wearing a tie and short-sleeved white shirt, and -facing directly into the camera. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The only one that I am able to identify in that picture -is Oswald himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man that was in the bar? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The same man that was in the bar as previously mentioned. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that in your mind? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am positive of this. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a photograph that -has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize -that man. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man appears to be Oswald, but the first picture is -a much better photograph in my mind for identifying Oswald. In other -words, I was able to tell in the first photograph that the man was -Oswald. In this photograph, the second photograph that I have been -shown---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. "Garner Exhibit No. 1." - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man appears to be Oswald, but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that he is clear in his mind that -the man with the X in "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" is the man who was -in the bar and who he identifies as Lee Harvey Oswald more than he is -about the man shown in Garner Exhibit No. 1. - -Do you have any question that that man was in your bar, referring to -the man portrayed in "Garner Exhibit No. 1?" - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. As far as this "Exhibit No. 1," a man appears to be -Oswald as I recognize him from newspaper pictures of Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to "Garner Exhibit No. 1." But the man in -"Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" looks more like the man who was in the bar? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man in "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" I have identified -as the man who I learned later was Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which -has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that looks -like the man who was in the bar. - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. This appears to me that this is the man. It looks -somewhat like the man that was in the bar with Oswald, but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Like the man that was in the bar with Oswald? - -Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's what he said? - -Mr. LOGAN. Now he says no. He says that this--how do you want to call -it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C." - -Mr. LOGAN. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C" does not appear like the man in -bar. The other man was more of a Latin-appearing man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, have you ever seen this man, set forth in -"Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," in the bar at all; at any time? - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is he saying? - -Mr. LOGAN. He is saying that this reminds him of Oswald because of -these--the eye part here [indicating], the sagging eyes, like, you -know--I don't know how you want to say that--like he has puffy eyelids. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He has an area around the eyes---- - -Mr. LOGAN. That reminds him of Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does he identify this man as Oswald? - -Mr. LOGAN. He says that the man in this exhibit appears to him to be -Oswald, but, of course, he says it has been a long time since he saw -him and he is not ready to be positive on that. That's as close as you -can come to it, I guess. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not sure that this was the man that was in the -bar? - -Mr. LOGAN. Now he says it is him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is or isn't? - -Mr. LOGAN. In his mind, "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" which has the man -with the X on him is the man who was in the bar and who he later -learned was Oswald. This picture stands out in his mind the best, -reminds him of the man the best; this one---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C." - -Mr. LOGAN. Appears to him to be Oswald, but he still says that the -other photograph is the one that he can best identify him as the man -who was in the bar. What we have got going here is the fact that this -looks like Oswald, but he is--probably since the other photograph -reminds him distinctly of the fact that that was the man that was in -the bar, he is a little reluctant to say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF OREST PENA - -The testimony of Orest Pena was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old -Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by -Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Orest Pena, having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified as -follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record. - -Mr. PENA. Orest Pena. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's O-r-e-s-t P-e-n-a; is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. PENA. 117 Decatur. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that your place of business or is that your residence? - -Mr. PENA. No; that's my place of business. On the ground floor is my -place of business. On the second floor, in the rear of the second floor -I live. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney for the President's Commission. I -understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you last week -and you are here under that subpena at this time. The rules of the -Commission entitle you to have your lawyer present if you wish. - -Mr. PENA. I don't think I need him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have the right under our rules not to answer -any question that you don't want to answer in the first instance, -specifying the reasons if you do refuse to answer any questions. - -I am here under the authority granted to the Commission by Executive -Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of -Congress No. 137. I understand that attached to the subpena are copies -of the Executive order that I have referred to and rules of the -Commission; is that correct? - -(The witness handed document to counsel.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they are attached. - -Where were you born, Mr. Pena? - -Mr. PENA. In Colon, Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When? - -Mr. PENA. August 15, 1923. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a citizen of the United States? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you become a citizen? - -Mr. PENA. I became a citizen May 5, 1956. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you became a citizen through naturalization; is that -correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The place of business that you have at 117 Decatur Street -is a bar and lounge? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of it? - -Mr. PENA. Habana Bar and Lounge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you have a brother by -the name of Ruperto Pena? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does he work with you in the bar and lounge? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I also correct in understanding that one of the -bartenders is named Evaristo Rodriguez? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos Bringuier? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is Mr. Bringuier connected with a clothing store located -close to your bar and lounge? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet Mr. Bringuier? - -Mr. PENA. When he came to the--if I am not wrong, I believe I met him -when he started the store. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long ago was it that you met Mr. -Bringuier? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. Might be a year and a half or 2 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bringuier is active in anti-Castro Cuban affairs; is -that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any connection with Cuban politics? - -Mr. PENA. Not with him, but with something else here in New Orleans, an -organization, about 4 years ago, more or less. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What organization was that? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know. The FBI know very well because a person from -the FBI was there all the time. I don't remember exactly the name of -the organization right now, but the organization was in the Balter -Building, I think, in the second floor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whatever the organization's name was, was it an -anti-Castro Cuban organization? - -Mr. PENA. It was in the Balter Building, the only one there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the organization sometimes known as Jure, J-u-r-e? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. _Junta Revolucionaria_ Cubana? - -Mr. PENA. The chief or the boss of that organization, who was in Miami, -Barrona. He was the boss of that organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Barrona? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. He was the boss of that organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Cuba? - -Mr. PENA. I left Cuba in September 1946. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been back to Cuba since that time? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when? - -Mr. PENA. Oh, many times I went to Cuba. My last time I went to Cuba -was about 8 months, I believe, after Castro took over, but before, I -used to go very often because all my family is in Cuba, my mother, my -father--before my father died, I used to go to Cuba many times. I was a -seaman, too. I used to ship out with the United Fruit Co. and the Lykes -Brothers Co. That's before Castro took over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you stop working as a seaman? - -Mr. PENA. Just before I went in business, in--I went in business 1958. -I stop in 1957. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You stopped working as a seaman in 1957? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in Cuba in April or May of 1959? - -Mr. PENA. I think that's the last time I was in Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of your trip to Cuba at that time? - -Mr. PENA. I went to Cuba--I don't know. I went to have an operation. -Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. While you were in Cuba, did you have any contact with any -officials in the Castro government? - -Mr. PENA. No; not any. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever expressed a favorable attitude toward the -Castro regime? - -Mr. PENA. No; I never was for--I was against Batista, but I never was -even--I didn't even know Castro. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had nothing to do with Castro? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you came back to the United States from Cuba in -1959---- - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go directly back to the United States? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go anywhere else---- - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Except to Cuba on that trip? - -Mr. PENA. No; I came back to--I went from here to--directly from here -to Havana and from Havana to New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After your trip to Cuba in 1959, when was the next time -that you were out of the United States? - -Mr. PENA. It was last summer. I went on vacation to Mexico. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you there? - -Mr. PENA. Nine days. I plan 2 weeks, but I got sick to my stomach, so I -came back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that strictly a vacation trip? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It had nothing to do with politics or anything like that? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have your passport here, Mr. Pena? - -Mr. PENA. Yes [handing document to counsel]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has handed me his passport, which is numbered -D-0092577, and issued on June 25, 1963. It carries the name of Orest -Pena and indicates a birth date of August 15, 1923, that the birthplace -is Cuba, that he is 5 feet 8 inches tall, has black hair and brown eyes. - -After you went to Mexico in May of 1963, when did you next leave the -United States? - -Mr. PENA. About 1 or 2 months after that vacation I went to Puerto Rico -for 1 week and to the Dominican Republic for 1 week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us exactly when it was that you left New -Orleans at that time to go to Puerto Rico? - -Mr. PENA. I don't remember, but you have it there, the date I entered -the Dominican Republic. I went 1 week before that by Delta Co., -directly from New Orleans to San Juan, P.R., by Delta Airlines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you indicating a visa stamp on page 6 of the -passport, which is difficult to read? - -Mr. PENA. The 22d of August; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. August 22? - -Mr. PENA. But then I got to Puerto Rico about the 14th. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Fourteenth or fifteenth of August? - -Mr. PENA. Fourteenth or fifteenth, something like that, of August. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave New Orleans? - -Mr. PENA. You leave New Orleans around 12 o'clock. About 3 hours later -you are in San Juan, P.R. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been August 13 or 14? - -Mr. PENA. The 13th or 14th of August I left New Orleans. Then, after I -got to Puerto Rico, 1 week after that I went to the Dominican Republic. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Pena, I would like to make arrangements with the -Secret Service agent who is here to make photographic copies of this -passport and to mark it in connection with our deposition. Would it be -agreeable with you to deliver it to him now? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. You can get the exact date by Delta Airlines I went to -Puerto Rico. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It seems from the visa that if you went to Puerto Rico a -week before you went to the Dominican Republic, the stamp here shows -it would have been around the 13th or 14th of August 1963, and that's -close enough. - -(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) - - -TESTIMONY OF OREST PENA RESUMED - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of your trip to Puerto Rico and the -Dominican Republic in August? - -Mr. PENA. Just a vacation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go to Cuba at that time? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any contact with any representatives of -the Cuban Government while you were in Puerto Rico or the Dominican -Republic? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any contact with any such representatives at -any time during 1963? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in May of 1964, you took a trip to Europe; is that -correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You then went to London? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Paris? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Madrid? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Rome? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Munich? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Berlin? - -Mr. PENA. No; I did not go to Munich. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go to Munich? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your plane land in Munich on the way to Berlin? - -Mr. PENA. No. From Rome, I went to Frankfurt, Germany, and I stayed -there about--I think about an hour and a half, something like that, -to make connections on the next plane to Berlin, and then coming back -from Berlin, fly from Berlin to Frankfurt again, from Frankfurt took -Lufthansa, and directly to New York, and from New York, I wait about -3 hours and took the Eastern Airlines, a night trip, to New Orleans -straight again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of that trip? - -Mr. PENA. Just a vacation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no contact with any agents of any foreign -government at any time other than the custom officials and that sort of -thing? - -Mr. PENA. Oh, when I went to Berlin; I went for--when I was in Berlin, -I took a tour for 4 hours to East Berlin. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On December 5, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents -of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Steinmeyer and Mr. Logan. -Do you remember that? - -Mr. PENA. I have been interviewed by the FBI so many times I don't -remember. Something. But it might be true. You tell me about what to -refresh my mind, and I can tell you about whether that is true or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me come back to that in just a moment. Do you -remember being interviewed by two FBI agents on June 9, 1964, when you -and Mr. Tamberella went to the FBI office here in New Orleans? - -Mr. PENA. That's about 2 weeks ago? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember generally what you told them at that time? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us? - -Mr. PENA. What, approximately, I can remember? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us now what you told them at that time? - -Mr. PENA. Well, they asked me in connection with the--Mr. Kennedy, the -late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything -about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if -I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business -with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long -bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, -Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know -exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a -customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That -was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer -asked for a lemonade. So my bartender--he learned to be a bartender at -my place of business; he was a seaman before--he came to me and said, -"The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He -didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple -of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge?" -I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went back and made a lemonade and put -it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the -lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ask for the tequila or did his friend? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. I was away from there. I didn't pay -any attention. They got mad about the 25 cents for the lemonade and -50 cents for the tequila, so they asked my bartender, Evaristo, why -I charge so much for the drinks and I was a capitalist charging too -much for the drinks. He went and came to me and told me about it. I -said, "Don't worry about it. They pay you already?" "Yes." "Don't worry -about it." If you are going to worry about all the customers, you are -going to go crazy. Then I don't know whether he left or something, -but he vomited after that; Oswald did. I don't know anything but -they walked away; that's all. When the assassination happened, they -put the pictures over on the television, so I saw Oswald and I said, -"That's the man who came to my place one time, the man who ordered -the lemonade." Evaristo came and said, "Look! That's the man that -assassinated Mr. Kennedy is the one that was here one time." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told this to Rodriguez? - -Mr. PENA. No; he told me. I identified to him by the television. I saw -him that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You recognized Oswald yourself even before Rodriguez came -to you and told you about that; is that right? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. When he told me about the lemonade, I took a look at -the customer; took a look and forget about it. No sense in going about -there and discuss with him, and then all of that was forgotten. After -the assassination, we were speaking about that man was here one time. -We used to go to Bringuier's place about the incident that we got with -Oswald, and Bringuier is very much interested. He called--my brother -called Bringuier. We didn't pay any attention until the FBI came one -time and asked me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did come and ask you about this? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; so when the---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that shortly after the assassination? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. So I told him just like I tell you. Then they start -coming, and over and over and over, and then I told the same thing what -I knew about, and that's all I know about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time? - -Mr. PENA. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other -time? - -Mr. PENA. The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than -anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am -Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, -about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be -a Cuban. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this man might be a Cuban? - -Mr. PENA. To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I -wasn't even too close to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were never too close to this man? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald clearly enough to be absolutely sure -in your mind that it was Oswald in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see this Cuban-looking man that was with him -at any other time or any other place? - -Mr. PENA. No. See, after--that was before the assassination of Mr. -Kennedy--there was an incident in my place. Two guys came. They said -they were Mexican. They didn't look like Mexicans. They looked more -like Cubans. They came to my place. I got a bongo with a chain. I got -two bongoes for the people to play that with the music. I got a chain -because I lose one of them one time. Maybe some guy was drunk. That's -why I put a chain on it so they can't take it away. I was fixing the -bongo on that day and they came in. They came to see me. They said, -"That's what you have to have here in this country, a chain?" I was mad -because one of the customers broke the bongo. I said, "What you mean -by that?" When I got mad, I got a little bit--I don't know--aggressive -by the way I speak. So I told them, "What you mean by that?" They -said, "Well, in this country you have to put a chain?" I said, "That's -so they don't take the bongo away." They said, "This is a democratic -country?" I said, "Where you come from?" He said, "I come from Mexico." -I said, "Don't tell me about Mexico; you take a car to Mexico, they -steal the four wheels away." So right away they saw me mad, so they -left, so I called the--I think I called the FBI and told them about -it. I told them where they walk, which way they walked. They say, "If -they come back to your place, call us again." I just forgot about it. I -never saw them no more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call the FBI yourself, do you remember that? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you call the FBI about these men? - -Mr. PENA. I don't like it, the way they were, the way they spoke about -the country here, so--I didn't like it, so I called the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the FBI told you if they came back---- - -Mr. PENA. If they came back, to please call them back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who you talked to at the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. See, I used to call De Brueys. You are -from Washington, huh? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PENA. I am going to talk to you about De Brueys and the FBI agency -in New Orleans, in Louisiana. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you talked to De Brueys at this time? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. Sometimes you call there and they tell -you he is not in there and you talk to somebody else if you want to -give the message in the FBI, see, because De Brueys isn't there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, these two Mexicans that came into your bar and with -whom you had the discussion about the bongo drums, were they the same -men or the same man that was with Oswald when he was in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they appear to you to have been entirely different -people? - -Mr. PENA. Well, I know it was not Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at the time you had the argument with -the men about the bongo drums? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not either of the men who argued -with you about the bongo drums had been with Oswald when he was in the -bar? - -Mr. PENA. See, the man was over--I can't identify him. I can't. Oswald -I did because of the lemonade. I looked to him, that's all, but the -other guy I can't identify. He looked like a Cuban, but I can't say -that exactly. Maybe if I would see him again I would say, "Well, that's -the man." - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to say whether the two men who argued -with you about the bongo drums had any connection with Oswald or had -been with Oswald when he was in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. I can't say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't recognize either of these two men that argued -with you about the bongo drums as the men that had been with Oswald -before? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen these Mexicans before they argued with -you about the bongo drums? - -Mr. PENA. I don't think they were Mexicans. They speak very, very -different, and they looked like Cubans. They spoke something like -Cubans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see them again after that time? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw them before that time, to the best of your -knowledge? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the story that you told to the FBI after the -assassination, that you had seen Oswald in the bar and Rodriguez had -seen him in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. More or less. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to the FBI 2 weeks ago, did they ask you -about this again? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; they asked me about this more than a dozen times. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you more than a dozen times about this? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did they come to your bar to ask you about this? - -Mr. PENA. They come to my bar. They been calling me to come to the FBI -office. That's why sometimes--one time I went down and got a lawyer. I -don't need a lawyer about for this. I just tell you the truth. When I -finish with him--you are from Washington. I tell you, Bringuier hates -the United States as much as he hates Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Bringuier does? - -Mr. PENA. The day Mr. Kennedy put a blockade in Cuba--you remember, -about a year and a half, more or less--Mr. Carlos Bringuier was telling -me--excuse me--(obscenity) in Spanish more than a dozen times, and I -couldn't stand that. I have never done anything against the United -States. I said, "No." Anyway, anything you want to ask me--and you can -ask Mr. Bringuier is that true or not, and let him and me take a lie -detector test to see who is right on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have never done anything against the -interests of the United States? - -Mr. PENA. No; I have not ever. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have no reason whatsoever not to believe that -statement, Mr. Pena. - -Mr. PENA. Okay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that Mr. Bringuier hates the United States -more than he does Russia? - -Mr. PENA. Because he does as much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As much? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why does he dislike the United States? Has he ever told -you? - -Mr. PENA. No; but the way he talks, that the United States didn't help -to overthrow Castro, and he can go over there and take over. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the basis for Mr. Bringuier's bad feeling towards -the United States, that we haven't done anything to overcome the Castro -regime? - -Mr. PENA. Well, the way he talks to me, he hates the United States -as much as he hates Russia. That's what I told you, what he said, -more than a dozen times. And if that is not true, let him take a lie -detector test and find out whether that is true or not true. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mr. Bringuier about having seen Oswald in -the bar? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; we was talking about that day. You see, I did like very, -very much Mr. Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did or did not? - -Mr. PENA. I did. Very, very much. So I was hurt when he got killed. So -when I saw the man there--I saw the man--so I went around and told most -of my customers that I saw Oswald came to my place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to the FBI on June 9, 1964, you told -them, did you not, that you had never told anybody that Oswald had been -in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. That I never told anybody? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PENA. That's not true. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you tell that to the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. I don't think that's so. That I never told anybody? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PENA. I didn't told anybody before? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report before me, Mr. Pena, of an interview of -you in the presence of your attorney, Mr. Tamberella, which was made -by Mr. De Brueys and Mr. Wall. That was in the FBI office on June 9, -and on page 2 of this particular report, which is page 14 of the larger -report, it says, and I quote: "Orest Pena specifically stated he had -never told anyone, including Carlos Bringuier, that Oswald had been in -the Habana Bar with a Mexican prior to the assassination of President -Kennedy. He also said he never heard his brother, Ruperto Pena, say -that Oswald had been in the bar with a Mexican. He also stated that he -had no information that the FBI was ever looking for a Mexican who had -ever patronized his bar." Did you tell the FBI that? - -Mr. PENA. I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you did tell Bringuier that you had seen Oswald -in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. When we were talking after the assassination, we were talking -about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents back in December that Oswald -had been in the bar and that you had seen him? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that Rodriguez had seen him there, too? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; that's the first time they interviewed me about Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On December 5, as far as I can tell. I have only two -reports. - -Mr. PENA. Last year, you mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. In 1963. I have a report dated December 5, 1963, of an -interview with you in which you told the FBI that you had seen Oswald -in the bar and then I have a report of the interview on June 9, 1964, -a month ago, which says that you told them that you never told anybody -that Oswald had been in the bar and, of course, that's one of the -reasons why we called you in and wanted to talk to you because there is -an apparent conflict between the two FBI reports that we have on that -question. Now let me ask you this: You have a good deal of hostility -toward the FBI, do you not? - -Mr. PENA. We got to talk about something else before I tell about the -FBI in New Orleans, so you let me know so I tell about the FBI, what I -think about it, if I can express myself well enough to put my point of -view about some of the agents of the FBI in New Orleans. Anyway, I will -tell you. See if you can understand my view. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Very well. Let's get to that later. Regardless of what it -says in this FBI report, the fact is, you did see Oswald in the bar and -you did tell Bringuier, didn't you? - -Mr. PENA. We was talking about--I know we was talking about it with -so many people around there, I can't tell you exactly. I know he knew -because we was talking about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Did you actually see the man who ordered the -lemonade in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when it was that you saw -Oswald in the bar? Now in this connection, let me help your thinking -about it by reminding you that you went to Puerto Rico on about August -13 or 14, 1963. Was it before that or after that that you saw Oswald? - -Mr. PENA. I don't remember exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You can't remember? - -Mr. PENA. No; it wasn't easy then. There was nothing in the incident. -He had money to pay for it and we just forgot about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You can't remember whether it was before you went to -Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic or afterward? - -Mr. PENA. No; I can't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother, Ruperto, ever tell you that the two men -who had given you a hard time about the bongo drums had come back to -the bar? - -Mr. PENA. He told me something about that he saw the men passing by in -a car and he called Bringuier and so Bringuier called the FBI, so they -said that they called the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Ruperto in the bar when you had the argument with the -fellow about the bongo drums? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you say that Ruperto saw these two men later on -driving past the bar; is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. I wasn't there that date. I wasn't around there that date. He -saw the two men and the FBI told me if I see them coming to my place, -to call them. He saw the two men sitting in a car and--I don't know -exactly. He went to Bringuier and told Bringuier, so Bringuier called -the FBI. That's what they said. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no personal knowledge of any of that? - -Mr. PENA. No. I believe my brother told me he saw the men or something, -but I didn't pay no attention about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There's no connection between these two men that your -brother, Ruperto, saw and the man who was in the bar with Oswald as far -as you know? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Ruperto was in the bar when -Oswald was there? - -Mr. PENA. I don't believe he was there. I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Evaristo Rodriguez there? - -Mr. PENA. When Oswald was there? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PENA. He was the one who was serving Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that -has previously been marked as "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and I ask you -if you recognize anybody in that picture. - -Mr. PENA. Yes, Oswald; I recognize him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is Oswald? - -Mr. PENA. Oswald is marked in some way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He has an "X" on him, is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the place where this picture was taken? - -Mr. PENA. I know about it now because I seen in the FBI. They have a -place. Put it on the television. That's the International Trade Mart, I -believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI put this picture on television? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly if that picture or another picture, but -they got Oswald and a group--I don't know if this group--handing out -propaganda to other people. I got in an argument with the FBI about -that, too. I told them if they had that propaganda paper, why don't -they find out the printing, where they printing that propaganda, and -that would be easy to find the other people. See, I---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why, because if they found the place where the propaganda -was printed, they would---- - -Mr. PENA. Yes. Those people might know Oswald and many other people in -connection with Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you if I told you we do know who -printed the handbills? - -Mr. PENA. Well--you say you do know? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PENA. Okay. I took two courses in investigation work, one from the -International Detective School, and one from the Applied Sciences of -Chicago. The big man there is an ex-FBI man, Mr. Dickerson Cook. So I -took that course, too. After I finished, he sent me a letter. I like -investigation very much. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me point out to you a young man in this picture. He -is the second man to Oswald's right and behind. He is standing there -with some leaflets in his hand. He has a white, short-sleeved shirt on -and a tie, and he appears to be handing out leaflets. Did you ever see -that man before? - -Mr. PENA. I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could he have been the man who was with Oswald in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. I couldn't say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody else in that picture except -Oswald, is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which -has been previously identified as "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A," and ask -you if you recognize anybody in that picture. - -Mr. PENA. I recognize Oswald there [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He has a green "X" line over his head? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anyone else in the picture? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I ask you the same question -with respect to "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B." - -Mr. PENA. I recognize him [indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With the green marking over his head? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And no one else? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which -has been previously identified as "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you -if you recognize that man. - -Mr. PENA. Yes; that's Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him as the same man who was in the bar? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that -has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if you can -identify that man. - -Mr. PENA. Yes; that's Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's the same man who was in your bar? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind that it was Oswald who -was in your bar? - -Mr. PENA. He was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was there? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in my understanding of your previous -testimony that after you saw the picture of Oswald on television after -the assassination, you, yourself, recognized that as the man that had -been in the bar, even before Rodriguez mentioned it to you? - -Mr. PENA. Well, I seen it and I came down. I was talking about it, and -I recognized him right away. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Even before Rodriguez spoke to you about it, or was it -after Rodriguez spoke to you about it? - -Mr. PENA. I was talking about it, and the man was in my place, you -know. Then Rodriguez came over and said, "You remember that man who was -drinking that lemonade?" Then my mind got clear. He just run from his -house to my house to tell me about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Oswald on television before Rodriguez told -you about it and you thought you recognized him as having been in the -place? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then Rodriguez reminded you of the lemonade and then it -became clear in your mind that Oswald was the man who had ordered the -lemonade and had been in your place? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Rodriguez told the FBI that shortly after Oswald had been -in the bar, after the lemonade incident, that he went to a doctor's -office with you and this was just before you went to Puerto Rico and -the Dominican Republic. Do you have any recollection of that? - -Mr. PENA. We went to a doctor's office? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. To be more specific, Rodriguez said that while he -was riding back in the car with you, he saw Bringuier in the street -with some policemen. Do you know anything about that? - -Mr. PENA. Oh, yes. They got some kind of trouble. I went out. Yes. And -they got some group, or two or three people was giving propaganda away, -and Bringuier and one or two more guys went and started an argument -with the guy who was giving the propaganda away in Canal Street. Then -the police came down and they arrested him. Bringuier, and one or -two more Cubans, and one more guy. I don't know the guy. I have seen -him, but I don't know the guy. And they put them in jail in the first -district, and they was calling Bringuier's brother-in-law. His name -is--it is---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Hernandez? Is that Celso Hernandez? - -Mr. PENA. No. They called me up there. I say, "Well--" so I went over -there and put a bond, $20, so they can come out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually went to the police station and put up bond -for Bringuier? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was so that Bringuier could get out? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. One or two more guys. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing the incident in the street as you -drove by? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rodriguez tell you about it later on? He told you -that he had seen it? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that when he was with you at that time? -Did he mention it after the doctor's appointment where you had been -together? - -Mr. PENA. What you mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rodriguez tell you that he had seen Bringuier in the -street on the way back from the doctor's appointment when he was with -you? - -Mr. PENA. I don't remember that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you, yourself, did not see Bringuier in the -street with the policemen at that time, and later on, after Bringuier -had been arrested, you went over to the police station and put the bond -up for Bringuier? - -Mr. PENA. His brother-in-law in the store told me about it. He say, "I -can't leave the store by myself." I said, "How much would the bond be?" -Then I said, "Okay, I put the bond. Then you give it back to me." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now that was shortly before you went to Puerto Rico; is -that correct? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the incident with regard to the -bond was about the time that Oswald was in the bar and ordered the -lemonade, or was it not about at that time? Do you remember? - -Mr. PENA. I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember one time about in May or so of 1962 that -you got into a fight in your bar with some man who was standing there -listening to you talk to some of your friends? - -Mr. PENA. I got so many fights in my place I don't know which one it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Garcia? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Hector Jose Garcia? - -Mr. PENA. Hector Jose Garcia? - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have a report that there was a man in your bar who -heard you talking to two merchant seamen, and you are reported to -have said: "Castro should have been notified about that as soon as -possible." Do you remember saying anything about that? - -Mr. PENA. That Castro should be notified about it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. That Castro should have been notified about that as soon -as possible. - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with Castro? - -Mr. PENA. No; not ever. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that Rodriguez had worked as a merchant seaman -prior to the time he went to work as a bartender, is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About what time did he start working as a bartender? - -Mr. PENA. When he came. His ship sunk and--somewhere in Costa Rica--and -they was transferred to New Orleans, and the company--agency that -he worked for bring him to New Orleans, bring a whole bunch to New -Orleans. They know I got room up in the house on the third floor. They -ask me if I got rooms, so I rent rooms to those guys, so--Evaristo, -too--so in that time, I put Evaristo to work for me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how long ago was that? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. I know it's over a year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Over a year? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do have a lot of fights and difficulties in your bar, -is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. Arguments. You know, a barroom. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was the anti-Castro organization that you worked with -called the Cuban Revolutionary Council? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the name of it? - -Mr. PENA. And the delegate here was Serrgio Arcacha. He was the boss of -the organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember having your picture in the paper at one -time---- - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this, on the front page? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been some time in late December of 1960 -approximately? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that when you talked to the FBI just last -month, they asked you when you went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican -Republic in August of 1963, and they asked you the days? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you subsequently discuss that with your attorney, -Mr. Tamberella? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. Well, see, why, the reason I took Tamberella with me -was because from my point of view, the FBI of New Orleans ask me about -the same things so many times that somehow I was mad, so I said--about -10, 15 times they ask me the same thing over and over and over, and -Tamberella is my lawyer, so I went to Tamberella and said, "Look! They -look silly to me." They say the same thing so much, so I want to see if -I can't stop this. If they come around asking me something else, that's -okay, but for the same thing, I can't tell no more about that. He said, -"Okay, I go with you." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now my reports indicate that Mr. Tamberella called the -FBI office back after your interview and told the FBI that you had left -for Puerto Rico on August 8, 1963. - -Mr. PENA. August 8? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That you were not able to tell them the exact date -at the time of the interview, but later, Mr. Tamberella told them that. -That does not appear to be correct, does it? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. It wasn't in the passport, the date? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the date was August 22 in the passport. - -Mr. PENA. The date in the passport was the date I came out of the -Dominican Republic, the 22d. I came back on my way back to New Orleans -the 22d of August. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this---- - -Mr. PENA. Yes; might be the day I came out of the Dominican Republic. -I don't know exactly. Might be the 8th because I spent 1 week--if that -date, August 22, is the date I left the Dominican Republic, might be -the 8th because I spent 2 weeks between the two places. Delta Airlines -can give you the date of the flight to Puerto Rico exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The only way that you and Mr. Tamberella were able to fix -the date was by looking at the stamp on the passport; is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If the visa stamp is the date that you left the Dominican -Republic---- - -Mr. PENA. It would be 14 days before that. I went 1 week in Puerto Rico -and 1 week in the Dominican Republic. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If the date on the stamp was the day you went into the -Dominican Republic---- - -Mr. PENA. It would be 7 days before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely clear in your mind, however, that you -were here in New Orleans on the day that Bringuier was arrested in -connection with the propaganda demonstration on the street because you -put up the bond to get him out. If I told you that that happened on -August 9, 1963, that would indicate that you were here in New Orleans -at that time and that you must have left some time subsequent to August -9, 1963? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know. It might be another time, but the time I placed -the bond for him, I was here because I was the one went up to the first -precinct to give the money. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time Bringuier had gotten into a fight with -this man over distributing propaganda leaflets? - -Mr. PENA. I didn't see the fight. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he told you about it? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how this fight came about? - -Mr. PENA. Some other Cuban, a friend of Bringuier's, one of the Cubans -I placed the bond for, came to Bringuier's store--that's what they told -me about it, what I hear--and told Bringuier, "Look, Bringuier, there -is a man there giving propaganda against the Cuban Society in favor -of Castro." So Bringuier came out, but the two men got away, and how -they--I don't know what happened, what was the argument, but they got -arrested by the policemen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time when you put up the bond to get him out? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; if that's the same time. I don't know if he got in some -other trouble like that a different time. I don't know. I put bond for -him one time. I don't know if it was--I don't remember exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the description of the incident that you have given -us about the propaganda sounds very much like the one that occurred on -August 9, and the man who was handing out the literature was Oswald, -and Bringuier was arrested along with two other men along with Oswald. -That would seem to place you here in the United States at that time. -We can always check what the procedure is on that visa stamp so we can -figure out when you left the United States. - -Mr. PENA. You don't need a visa to go to Puerto Rico when you are an -American citizen, but the Delta Airlines, if they keep records, can -give you the exact date and the hour I left New Orleans to go to San -Juan, P.R., last summer. I know it was in August because in August is -my birthday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went to Puerto Rico on your birthday? - -Mr. PENA. Well, I stay there on my birthday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When is your birthday? - -Mr. PENA. August 15. - -Mr. LIEBELER. August 16? - -Mr. PENA. Fifteen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photographic copy of a passport application -dated June 24, 1963, and ask you if that is a copy of the passport -application that you filled out on or about that day [handing document -to witness]. - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is a copy of your passport application, is it? - -Mr. PENA. I believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to mark that as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1," -and I will just write it on here if I may. - -(Whereupon, the document offered by counsel was duly marked for -identification as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1.") - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1," New -Orleans, July 21, 1964, and I have placed my initials on it. Would you -initial it below my initials just so we know we are talking about the -same document. - -Mr. PENA. Over here [indicating]? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just put your initials on it. - -(Witness complying.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now this application also has a part 2, which is required -to be filled out by naturalized citizens. That is also a part of your -application; is it not? [Handing document to witness.] Is that a part -of your application, too, Mr. Pena? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know. Might be. Something wrong here. How--went to -Mexico? I don't know exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What's the problem? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know. Says here I was in Mexico. I don't know when -I went to Mexico. When I got my passport, I don't remember exactly. I -believe I got my passport--when I went to Mexico? How come it says here -I went to Mexico? - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told us you went to Mexico in May of 1963, if I am -not mistaken. Is that right? - -Mr. PENA. I know I went to Mexico last year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this passport application, the one that we have -already marked, is dated June 24, and the part, the supplement to it, -or what purports to be a supplement to it indicates that you went to -Mexico for 8 days in May of 1963. Now this part that we are looking at -is not signed by you at any point. - -Mr. PENA. You mean that's when I applied for my passport? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; you applied for your passport on June 24, 1963. That -was after you came back from Mexico. You didn't need your passport to -go to Mexico. I don't think you did, anyway. - -Mr. PENA. Yes; I believe so. I got my citizen papers; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But the information that is set forth on this second part -of the application, to the extent that it indicates that you went to -Cuba in 1959 in May and April, is correct, is it not? - -Mr. PENA. Well, I don't know the exact date, but it was around there, -somewhere around there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The information that you came to the United States in -October of 1946 is correct, is it not? That's correct approximately? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; around. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you lived at 223 West 105th Street in New York City, -did you not, for a time? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; I lived in that place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now on the application, the original application that we -have marked as "Exhibit No. 1," which you signed, it indicates, does it -not, that you were going to go to Spain and that you planned to go to -Spain for a vacation trip of approximately 2 weeks. - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now in fact, you didn't go to Spain at that time; is that -right? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What made you change your mind about that? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know; I just changed my mind. I postponed the trip to -Europe for this year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on -vacation? - -Mr. PENA. What? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on -vacation? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. That's where I did take my passport. You also use a -passport. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you fill this application out? - -Mr. PENA. Right here in New Orleans at 701 Loyola Street, if I am not -wrong, the new Federal building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At 701 Loyola Street, the new Federal building? - -Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at the passport office on -the day you applied for this passport? - -Mr. PENA. I don't believe he was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He applied for a passport on the same day. - -Mr. PENA. He applied for the passport on the same day? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PENA. I don't remember seeing him there. I remember the day I -applied for my passport there were a lot of people from--I don't know -from where, India or Africa. You know, colored people. There were some -people there. They were seamen or something, and one American girl got -all of those colored people. She was helping all of them that day. A -bunch of people there, colored people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of seeing Oswald there at that -time? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, you never saw Oswald at any time -other than that time you saw him in your bar? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never had any conversation with you; is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Not that I recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have any other Federal agencies besides the FBI -interviewed you? - -Mr. PENA. You see, before, they used to go there and say, "We are from -the Federal Bureau," and would just talk to them. I didn't know what -agency. I never took no one's name or anything until later my lawyer -told me, "Every time you talk to one of these men, get their name, -where they come from." That was very, very much later. Before, they -would just come around and tell me that they are asking me many things -about people that was for Castro. When you got a barroom, especially in -Spanish like I got--most of my customers are Spanish seamen, foreign -seamen--you hear the way they talk, and before, as I was against -Batista--most of the people here for Castro, really for Castro--they -was going to my place. So when I joined the organization against Castro -in New Orleans, one of the agents of the FBI, De Brueys, started going -to my place very, very often asking me about many different people, -Spanish people, what I knew, what I thought. I told him what I knew; -that some people was for Castro and some people was against. I told him -what I saw. I never did ask him what he found out about those people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sometimes you would call the FBI and give them -information, too; is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Information that you picked up from conversations that -took place at your bar and listening to those seamen? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now I have been provided with what are supposed to be all -of the FBI reports about their conversations relating to the Oswald -case, and as far as I can tell, the only time the FBI has spoken to you -about that was back in December 1963, shortly after the assassination, -and then again in June 1964 just a short time ago; when they came to -question you again at my request after I had---- - -Mr. PENA. Just those two times? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just twice. - -Mr. PENA. I believe it's very many more times than that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think it is more times than that? - -Mr. PENA. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure these were FBI men? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know because, as I told you before, I didn't used to -get the names until my lawyer told me, "Look! Every time you talk to -one of those people, you better get the name and write it down so you -know who you are talking about." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You wanted to tell me something about the FBI in New -Orleans. Why don't you do that now. - -Mr. PENA. You see, I started--like I told you, when that organization -moved in New Orleans---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the anti-Castro organization? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. So I went down there and joined the organization. In -1959 when I went to Cuba, my mother told me how everything was going; -so she says, "He is even worse than Batista." So when I came back, I -joined the organization a little bit after that, the organization here -in New Orleans. So I went and joined them and started working for the -organization collecting money at my place of business and giving my -own money for many things to the organization, you know, a dollar, two -dollars. Then De Brueys came to the organization. Maybe--I don't know -if sent by the Government or how, but he went to the organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He joined it? - -Mr. PENA. No; he didn't join it, but he was sticking with the -organization very, very close. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They knew he was an FBI agent? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; we knew he was an FBI agent. So from time to time he -called me at my place. He went to my place and was asking me about this -guy and that guy, different people here in New Orleans. So I told him -what I thought about the men. I tell you that and then you find out if -I am right or if I am wrong. I never did ask if I was right or wrong. -I told him about people that I am for sure they are for Castro here -in New Orleans. So one way or the other, he was interfering with me -somehow, Mr. De Brueys, so---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. De Brueys was interfering with you? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. Somehow. So one day I went to the FBI. They called me to -the FBI. I don't remember exactly for what they called me. So I told -De Brueys'--I told De Brueys' or somebody else that I talked to--De -Brueys' boss--I didn't ask them who it was. They was FBI. They was in -the FBI office--I told the agency there I don't talk to De Brueys. I -don't trust him as an American. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell them any reasons why you didn't? - -Mr. PENA. Because he was interfering very close with the organization -against Castro. So since that day--we got in a little bit of argument -there. We was talking about somebody. The FBI asked me about a man that -had been in the group before, about somebody--if I knew somebody--if I -knew his way for signing. So I asked De Brueys, "Did I told you about -this man?" He said, "No." I got mad. I said, "If you said I didn't -told you about that man, I don't trust you as an American, to be for -an American." So 2 days later he went to my place of business. He said -to me at the table, "I want to talk to you." I said, "Okay, let's go." -He said not to talk about him any more because what he could do is get -me in big trouble. He said, "I am an FBI man. I can get you in big -trouble." But he made a mistake. I had a girl that was with me that was -here when he was discussing me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Somebody else was there and heard it? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. He was discussing me not to talk about it. He was an -FBI man and he could get me in big trouble. So I talked to my girl -friend and said, "Look, I better pull out of this thing. What the FBI -wants me is to pull away from that organization and just keep away from -those things, politics," so I pull away, and I never did heard from the -FBI any more until Mr. Kennedy got assassinated. They left me alone -completely. They never asked me after I pulled out of the organization. -After that, I never listened to anybody talking about politics in the -place. I tried to keep out of it the most I could. They never did call -me any more until Oswald got--and then they started coming here talking -to me because we was talking about the incident. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So your complaints about the FBI here in New Orleans -relate basically to the anti-Castro proposition and not to the -investigation of the assassination; is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. No, no. That was way before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any criticism of the FBI as far as the -investigation of the Kennedy assassination was concerned except that -you just don't like to talk to the FBI any more; is that right? - -Mr. PENA. You mean after the assassination? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PENA. After the assassination, they came and asked me so many times -about the same thing, lemonade, it just looked silly to me. They came -over so many times, I said, I better do something about it. I called -my lawyer and said, "Look! I don't know anything else about this. I -want you to go with me there and put it clear that that's what I know -about it and I don't want no more part of that." The thing--I got in an -argument with one of the men there, the same thing I told you about the -printing and the propaganda. I told him how I feel about that. I don't -know whether I was right or wrong. He told me that the United States is -a big country and it was hard to find. I told him, "I don't agree with -you." I told him that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who? - -Mr. PENA. I talked to the agency about if that propaganda, where they -was printing that propaganda, and I said, "Why can't you find that -place?" He said, "Because the United States is a big country." I said, -"It doesn't matter. Each printing has their own type or letter that can -be found somehow." - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you told this FBI agent that they should find where -the propaganda literature had been printed? - -Mr. PENA. The propaganda that Oswald was giving away. They put that on -television about 4 or 5 days after the assassination--Oswald giving -that propaganda. They knew that Oswald was giving that propaganda away -before Mr. Kennedy was killed. They got all of that propaganda and all -of that film taken of Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think they should find where those leaflets were -printed? This is what you told them? - -Mr. PENA. The little bit I know about the investigation, they even--let -me see how to say it. Let me see--they even keep Oswald from killing -Mr. Kennedy. From my point of view as an investigator, if they went all -the way from that propaganda, from where it was printed, maybe they can -put Oswald in jail. Maybe the President not be killed. That was before -Mr. Kennedy was killed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this: Do you have any evidence or do -you know of any evidence that would link Oswald to anybody else in a -conspiracy to assassinate the President? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information or knowledge that Oswald was -involved with pro-Castro people in connection with the assassination? - -Mr. PENA. No; I can't tell you that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that this was a pro-Castro or -a Castro plot to assassinate President Kennedy? - -Mr. PENA. No; I can't say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether anybody else in New Orleans has any -information like that? - -Mr. PENA. No; I can't say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Bringuier? - -Mr. PENA. What I think about Bringuier? He is just trying to get big -name, collecting big name to make himself big when he come back to -Cuba. Be one of the bosses. That's my point of view. I told you he -don't like the United States and what I told you about; you can bring -him here and tell him that Orest Pena told you that. I will stand a -lie-detector test and invite him to take one, and I invite De Brueys, -too, to ask De Brueys if that's true or not true he went to my place -and tried to intimidate me. If he say no, I take a lie-detector test -and he take a lie-detector test and maybe you will find one Communist -in the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Bringuier is using his association with -Oswald to give himself a big name in connection with that? - -Mr. PENA. That's what it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, Bringuier doesn't have any evidence -that there was a pro-Castro plot to assassinate the President. - -Mr. PENA. No; I don't know. See, Bringuier know Oswald very well. He -told me one time--I don't know if that is true or not--he said that -Oswald brought him some kind of manual or a book. I believe he still -have the book. And Bringuier has his own organization here. They call -it---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. DRE? - -Mr. PENA. Cuban something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the DRE? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Cuban Students Directory? - -Mr. PENA. He said Oswald came to infiltrate in his organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And that Oswald came to his store? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. That's what he told me. Before, I used to talk to him, -go there or he came to my place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Bringuier are not too good friends any more; -is that right? - -Mr. PENA. We was quite close until--when they started the blockade in -Cuba, the way he spoke about President Kennedy. And I pulled a little -bit out. I even used to give him sometimes more than $2. I don't know. -He collected to send to Miami, if he don't send it somewhere else. -That's what he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to tell us at -this time, Mr. Pena, that I haven't asked you about that you think we -should know about? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You can't think of anything? - -Mr. PENA. I tell you, Bringuier don't do many things that he will tell -you. He don't like America. Time will tell. He is one of the guys -that--do you remember when they were saying, "Yankee, go home," in -Cuba? He was in Cuba at that time. He was calling, "Yankee, go home." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has he ever favored Castro that you know of? - -Mr. PENA. Oh, of course. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who, Bringuier? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. He said not? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am asking you did he ever favor Castro. - -Mr. PENA. I was in Cuba. I left Cuba very long time ago. I never was -involved in any kind of politics. I didn't like Batista, but I wasn't -in any organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know of any. - -Mr. PENA. What I know about people, what I hear in my place, or what I -hear other people talking, and what I hear about Bringuier was, when -Castro started with his revolution of Cuba, he was one of the Cubans in -the revolution calling, "Yankee, go home." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think that Bringuier is in favor of Castro at -this time? - -Mr. PENA. He? No, no. He hate Castro and he hate Russia, but he hates -America as much, too. He just want to go back to Cuba and be one of the -bosses. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Be a big man? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, Mr. Pena. I want to thank you very much for -coming in. - -Mr. PENA. I want you to know something: I love the United States more -than many people that are born in this country and I got a place of -business and I hear--they don't talk much now. They are very scared, -but before, when Castro was started, I learn many people, how much they -was against this country, people that was born in this country. I love -this country, believe me. Maybe you don't believe me or have a bad -report about me, but nobody make me a Communist. Believe that. Believe -it or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RUPERTO PENA - -The testimony of Ruperto Pena was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old -Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by -Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Ruperto Pena, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, -through the interpreter, as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. First, let the record show that this testimony is being -taken through an interpreter in the person of Special Agent Richard E. -Logan of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -Mr. Pena, I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission -investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. I have -been authorized to take your testimony pursuant to certain regulations -and orders that President Johnson has issued, including Executive Order -No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress -No. 137. - -You are entitled to have an attorney. You do not have to answer the -questions if you have any objections to them, and you are entitled to 3 -days' notice of the hearing. - -Mr. LOGAN. I have already explained to him that you are an attorney and -about the Commission and authorization. Now I will just tell him about -these rights that he has. - -(Discussion between witness and interpreter). - -Mr. LOGAN. He says as long as he can answer them, that he will. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I assume that he will be willing to proceed without an -attorney? - -Mr. LOGAN. No; he doesn't care. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Pena? - -Mr. PENA. Mantanza--that's the province--Colon--that's the city--Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When? - -Mr. PENA. March 5, 1927. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are still a citizen of Cuba? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work? - -Mr. PENA. With my brother at the--I help my brother run the bar, the -Habana Bar, 117 Decatur Street. The Habana Bar it is called. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos Bringuier? - -Mr. PENA (answering directly). Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are the brother of Orest Pena; is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Evaristo Rodriguez? - -Mr. PENA (answering directly). Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your brother an incident in the -bar where a man ordered a lemonade? - -Mr. PENA. I didn't talk with my brother about it. I have discussed it -with the bartender. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Rodriguez? - -Mr. LOGAN. Because his brother, apparently--he wasn't there when the -incident happened either. He didn't discuss it with his brother and the -bartender. Apparently, he just heard it through talk in the bar about -the thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were not there at the time this happened? - -Mr. PENA. No; I wasn't there. - -Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture which -has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize -that man. - -Mr. PENA. I know him from the newspapers, but I have never seen him in -person. - -(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) - -Mr. LOGAN. He knows. Just can't get it out right now. He doesn't -remember his name. He knows his face because he has seen it in a lot of -photographs and pictures in the newspaper. Never saw him in person, but -he knows the photograph of the man from pictures on TV and newspapers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you know him as the man who assassinated President -Kennedy? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; I do. I don't right at this second remember his name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald? - -Mr. PENA. Oswald is the man. - -Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture that -has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you have -ever seen any of the men in this picture, specifically that man who -is handing out leaflets slightly to Oswald's right, the man I point -to with my pencil, and, for the purposes of the record, it is the man -who stands behind Oswald to his right, and he is the second man from -Oswald. He wears a short-sleeved shirt with a tie. - -Mr. PENA. I don't know anybody in there. I don't recognize anybody in -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell Carlos Bringuier that you had seen -Oswald anywhere? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in the bar, the Habana Bar, at the time when -your brother got into an argument with two Mexicans or Cubans about the -bongo drums? - -Mr. PENA. It was me that had the argument with them. I had an argument -with a couple of them over there over the problem of Cuba, but I was -not there when the incident that your question specifically asked about -took place. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you did have an argument with two Mexicans about -Cuba; is that right? - -Mr. PENA. The problems of Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you call the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. Bringuier did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Bringuier called the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see these men? - -Mr. PENA. The first time I saw them was in the bar, the two of them. It -was in the evening we were having this discussion over the problems of -Cuba. The second time was 2 or 3 days later--I am not positive about -that--when I saw them pass the bar in a little car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Bringuier to call the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. What I did was, when I saw them passing in the -car--these two men that I mentioned, passing in a car--I went out and -took the license number and I gave this to Bringuier, Carlos Bringuier, -and I asked Bringuier to call the FBI because I wasn't able to speak -English well enough, and that's it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you, yourself, ever called the FBI or any other -Government agency about these two men before you told Bringuier to call -them? - -Mr. PENA. I didn't call anybody before I told Bringuier to call them, -the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure? - -Mr. PENA. I am sure. I gave Bringuier the number and told him to call -the FBI because I couldn't speak English well enough. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you remember discussing this question with Mr. -Logan back in May, and Mr. Logan asked you this question at that time, -and don't you remember that you told Mr. Logan that you had called the -FBI or the Immigration and Naturalization Service? - -Mr. PENA. No; I didn't, but at that time, I just have said that I -called one because it mentions there about the telephone. I just can't -remember it now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you ask Bringuier to call the FBI, when you saw -these men in the car? - -Mr. PENA. The night that I had the discussion with these two men, I got -the impression that they were pro-Castro and probably Communists, so -that's why, when I saw them go by in the car a couple of days later, I -asked Bringuier to call the FBI to denounce them, to turn them in or -denounce them, or to let them know that they were about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why didn't you call the FBI when you talked to them the -first time? - -Mr. PENA. The first reason I did not call the FBI the first time was -because this discussion took place at night and that, as soon as the -discussion was terminated, these two men left, and so it just sort of -ended right there. Then, when I saw them again, I got Bringuier to try -to call them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier tell you that he did call the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. He called the FBI right in front of me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when Bringuier called the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. Yes. I was right there when he was supposed to have called -them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did Bringuier call them from? - -Mr. PENA. Called them from Bringuier's store. That's the Casa Rocca. -That's right down the street from me. It's 107 Decatur. It's the Casa -Rocca. It's a store. That's where the call was made from. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier tell you who he talked to at the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did these two men have anything to do with Oswald, as far -as you know? - -Mr. PENA. As far as I know, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen them again after you saw them in the -car? - -Mr. PENA. No; never saw them since. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been in favor of Fidel Castro in the early -times? - -Mr. PENA. I have never been friendly toward Castro. I am more or less -pro-Batista. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information as to where these two men -could be found now? - -Mr. PENA. No; I don't have any information. I am under the impression -that one was a Cuban and one was a Mexican because of their method -of speaking Spanish, which varies from each Spanish country, like a -Cuban speaking can recognize a Mexican by his language rather than his -appearance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the answer to the question? - -Mr. PENA. The answer to the question is that I do not have any -information as to where these two men can be found now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give Bringuier the license number of the -automobile? - -Mr. PENA. Yes; I gave it to Bringuier. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier give it to the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. Bringuier gave it to them, the FBI, over the telephone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure that you were present when Bringuier talked -to the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. The thing is, I was there when Bringuier made a call -supposedly to the FBI, but I can't say and won't say that I know -Bringuier was talking to the FBI. Actually, as a matter of fact, he -could have been talking to just anybody. That's what he just said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had that problem because of your difficulty -understanding the English language? - -Mr. PENA. The idea is that I was there when the call was made, but I -don't know. As far as I am concerned, Bringuier was talking to the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It says here in this report that you weren't even there. - -(Discussion between witness and interpreter.) - -Mr. LOGAN. He is telling me now about all the people that are exiles -that are in Cuba. They hollered, "Yankee, no." But that's not -pertinent. You want me to ask him again about his being present and see -if we can make him remember? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why does he mention this thing about Cuba? He is not one -of them? - -Mr. LOGAN. I dare say it is part of his nature. He is telling me that -we have to be careful of all of these people, which we already know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Pena, did you tell Mr. Logan and Agent De Brueys -that you were not present when Carlos called the FBI? - -Mr. PENA. I don't know that I remember telling you that, but I say now -that I was present when that call was made. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now Mr. Bringuier said that you told him that one of the -two Mexicans had been in the bar with Oswald. Is that correct? - -Mr. PENA. I never told Bringuier that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't have told Bringuier that because you -weren't even in the bar when Oswald was there and you never saw the man -who was with Oswald? - -Mr. PENA. That's right. I wasn't in the bar when---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge that Oswald was connected in -any way with any conspiracy to assassinate the President? - -Mr. PENA. I have no information that Oswald was ever connected with any -organization or conspiracy to assassinate the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that you would like to tell us -about this whole affair? - -Mr. PENA. I have no further information outside of what I have already -said regarding the two Mexicans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO - -The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964, -in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan -and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant -counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise and take the oath? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an -attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the -assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take -your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the -Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint -resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney -present, if you wish one. You are also entitled to 3 days' notice of -the hearing, and you are not required to answer any question that you -think might incriminate you or might violate some other privilege -you may have. I think the Secret Service did call you, or Martha Joe -Stroud, here in the U.S. attorney's office, called you and gave you -notice. - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you wish to have an attorney present? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you some questions about the possibility -that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mrs. ODIO. Before you start, let me give you a letter of my father's -which he wrote me from prison. You can have it. It was very funny, -because at the time he wrote it, the FBI incident happened a week -later. I told my father this man had been in my house and he introduced -himself as your friend; and he wrote me back in December telling me -that such people were not his friends, and he said not to receive -anybody in my house, and not any of them were his friends, and he -didn't know those people. At the time I did give the names of one or -two, and he wrote back, "I actually don't know who they are." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to this during the course of the questioning, -but I am glad you brought it up. I do want to get to it, because it may -help us determine who these people were. - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, would you tell us where you were born? - -Mrs. ODIO. In Havana, Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when? - -Mrs. ODIO. 1937. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Cuba? - -Mrs. ODIO. Until, well, I studied in the United States, so I mean--you -mean my whole life until--it was 1960. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1960? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you left Cuba and came to the United States, is that -correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you come to in the United States? - -Mrs. ODIO. We first came to Miami, and we stayed there just a few days -and left for Ponce, Puerto Rico, and we stayed there 2 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then from Ponce, did you come to Dallas? - -Mrs. ODIO. From Ponce, I came straight to Dallas last year, March of -last year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you have been in Dallas since March of 1963, is -that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had gone to school in the United -States. Where? - -Mrs. ODIO. Eden Hall Convent of The Sacred Heart, in Philadelphia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to school there? - -Mrs. ODIO. Three years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what, high school? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. From 1951 to 1954. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that period of 3 years the only time you were in the -United States prior to the time that you came to Dallas in March of -1963? The only time in the United States over any extended period of -time? - -Mrs. ODIO. Excuse me, when I got married in 1957, I stayed 8 months--9 -months in New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you lived in the United States for 9 months in -1956? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had been in Philadelphia for 3 years from 1954 on, is -that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; from 1951 to 1954, when I graduated. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And for the period in New Orleans and when you came to -the United States finally? - -Mrs. ODIO. In 1960, December 25, 1960. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So after you came in December of 1960, you went to Puerto -Rico and lived in Puerto Rico for 2 years, and you came to Dallas in -1963 and you have been here ever since? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational -background is, Mrs. Odio? - -Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had grammar school in Cuba. I started high school in -Cuba and then I was sent to the Sacred Heart and I applied for college, -and went back and studied law in the University of Villanova. I did -not finish because my career was interrupted because of Castro, and I -didn't finish law. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much training did you have in law? - -Mrs. ODIO. I had almost 3 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of law study in Cuba? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My record indicates that on December 18, 1963, you were -interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. James P. Hosty and Bardwell -D. Odum. Do you remember that? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that they interviewed you at your -place of work, is that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what they asked you and -what you told them? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think I remember. Not exactly, but I think I can recall -the conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the content of that conversation, as -best you can recall it? - -Mrs. ODIO. They told me they were coming because of the assassination -of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known -Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee -Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And -they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not -know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities -in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. -I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father -and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto -recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to -JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him -a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about -what happened in my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was it that you had seen in Puerto Rico? - -Mrs. ODIO. Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father -and mother. He hid in my house several times in Cuba. - -So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told -them that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, -exact date. I still can't. We more or less have established that it was -the end of September. And, of course, my sister had recognized him at -the same time I did, but I did not say anything to her. She came very -excited one day and said, "That is the man that was in my house." And I -said, "Yes; I remember." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when -Oswald came to your house. - -Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to -my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going -to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the -time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other -things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would -help as much as I could. - -Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans -knew that I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of -sympathy in Dallas and I was criticized because of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because of what now? - -Mrs. ODIO. Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray -has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is -Castro without Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to -Oak Cliff because it was much nearer to my work in Irving. So we were -all involved in this moving business, and my sister Annie, who at the -time was staying with some American friends, had come over that weekend -to babysit for me. - -It either was a Thursday or a Friday. It must have been either one of -those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to -go out to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit. - -Like I said, the doorbell rang and she went over--she had a housecoat -on--she wasn't dressed properly--and came back and said, "Sylvia, there -are three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other -two seem to be Cubans. Do you know them?" So I put a housecoat on and -stood at the door. I never opened my door unless I know who they are, -because I have had occasions where Cubans have introduced themselves as -having arrived from Cuba and known my family, and I never know. - -So I went to the door, and he said, "Are you Sarita Odio?" And I said, -"I am not. That is my sister studying at the University of Dallas. I am -Sylvia." Then he said, "Is she the oldest?" And I said, "No; I am the -oldest." And he said, "It is you we are looking for." So he said, "We -are members of JURE." - -This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem -familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name -was Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, -everybody has a war name. This was done for safety in Cuba. So when -everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names. - -And the other one did give me his name, but I can't recall. I have been -trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able -to remember, and I couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one I -am exact on; I remember perfectly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. -Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did -most of the talking? Was it the American? - -Mrs. ODIO. The American had not said a word yet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of the Cubans? - -Mrs. ODIO. The American was in the middle. They were leaning against -the staircase. There was a tall one. Let me tell you, they both looked -very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one -was on the heavier side and had black hair. I recall one of them had -glasses, if I remember. We have been trying to establish, my sister and -I, the identity of this man. And one of them, the tall one, was the one -called Leopoldo. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did most of the talking? - -Mrs. ODIO. He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and -the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in -Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in -Spanish. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door -completely opened? - -Mrs. ODIO. I had a chain. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was the chain fastened? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told -me they were members of JURE, and were trying to let me have them -come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, "We are very -good friends of your father." This struck me, because I didn't think -my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from -anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw -my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost -incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really -would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, -after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American. - -He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said, "No, I am -sorry to say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We -wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated -it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. -She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an -American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me -see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at -the time I was at the door things about him. - -I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called -Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this -American. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is -true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name -very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't remember it? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This -I don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which -is one of the leaders of the JURE here in Dallas. And I think I just -casually said, "I am going to mention these names to him to see if he -knows any of them." But I forgot about them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister see the men? - -Mrs. ODIO. She saw the three of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with her since that time? - -Mrs. ODIO. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just -had to know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, -she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I -learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so -obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald -the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind -of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like -if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind -of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other -ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved -shirt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to -here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie? - -Mrs. ODIO. No tie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt? - -Mrs. ODIO. He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but -it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was -very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on -television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you -know, as the man that had been in the apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said "Yes," and -she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it -couldn't be so, could it?" - -That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. -We were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock. - -This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written -in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the -revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms -for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to -translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of -them to different industries to see if we can get some results. - -This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of -the leaders of JURE, here in Dallas. He had made this petition to me, -"Sylvia, let's write letters to different industries to see if we can -raise some money." I had told him too, I was very busy. So I asked and -I said, "Are you sent by Alentado? Is this a petition?" - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE -representatives here in Dallas. Is that his full name? - -Mrs. ODIO. His name is Antonio. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of George Rodriguez -Alvareda? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he? - -Mrs. ODIO. He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little -after that, after December, I was more in contact with him, and I -will tell you why later. They are all members of JURE here in Dallas, -working hard. - -And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "No". And I -said, "Do you know Eugenio?" This is the war name for ----. That is his -war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio. So I didn't -mention his real name. He didn't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who did you ask this? - -Mrs. ODIO. I asked these men when they came to the door--I asked if -they had been sent by Alentado, because I explained to them that he had -already asked me to do the letters and he said no. And I said, "Were -you sent by Eugenio," and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by -Ray," and he said no. And I said, "Well, is this on your own?" - -And he said, "We have just come from New Orleans and we have been -trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and -this is on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work." This -was all talked very fast, not as slow as I am saying it now. You know -how fast Cubans talk. And he put the letter back in his pocket when I -said no. And then I think I asked something to the American, trying to -be nice, "Have you ever been to Cuba?" And he said, "No, I have never -been to Cuba." - -And I said, "Are you interested in our movement?" And he said, "Yes." - -This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him -and I said, "If you will excuse me, I have to leave," and I repeated, -"I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit -me." - -And he said, "Is he still in the Isle of Pines?" And I think that was -the extent of the conversation. They left, and I saw them through the -window leaving in a car. I can't recall the car. I have been trying to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which one of the men was driving? - -Mrs. ODIO. The tall one, Leopoldo. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Leopoldo? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They -kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, -it was almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two -or three times they said the same thing. - -They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow -night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or -three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had -the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not indicate where they were going? - -Mrs. ODIO. The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from -work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on -Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get -fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that -I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the -conversation. Then he said, "What do you think of the American?" And I -said, "I didn't think anything." - -And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground -in Cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts." This was more or -less--I can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He -told us we don't have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy -should have been assassinated after the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans -should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the -freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the -conversation. - -And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he -(Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in -Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they -would like very much to see me on their return to Dallas. Then he -mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never -mentioned the name Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone? - -Mrs. ODIO. He never mentioned his last name. He always referred to the -American or Leon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his last name the night before? - -Mrs. ODIO. Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned -their names again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not mention Oswald's name except as Leon? - -Mrs. ODIO. On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or -an American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in -helping the Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or -less used, in Spanish, that he was terrific. And I don't remember what -else he said, or something that he was coming back or something, and he -would see me. It's been a long time and I don't remember too well, that -is more or less what he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion at that time as to why Leopoldo -called you back? What was his purpose in calling you back? - -Mrs. ODIO. At first, I thought he was just trying to get fresh with -me. The second time, it never occurred to me until I went to my -psychiatrist. - -I used to go to see Dr. Einspruch in the Southwestern Medical School, -and I used to tell him all the events that happened to me during the -week. And he relates that I mentioned to him the fact that these men -had been at my door, and the fact that these Cubans were trying to get -in the underground, and thought I was a good contact for it, they were -simply trying to introduce him. Anyhow, I did not know for what purpose. - -My father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can -blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give -them a certain amount of money. You never know what to expect. I expect -anything. Later on I did establish opinions, because you can't help but -establish opinions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you establish that opinion after the assassination or -before the assassination? - -Mrs. ODIO. This first opinion that I mentioned to my psychiatrist, I -did not give it a second thought. I forgot to tell Alentado about it; -except 3 days later I wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned -the fact that the two men had called themselves friends of his. And -later in December, because the letter takes a long time to get here, he -writes me back, "I do not know any of these men. Do not get involved -with any of them." - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have already given us a copy of the letter that you -received from your father in which he told you that these people were -not his friends, and told you not to get involved with them? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell your father the names of these men when you -wrote to him? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your father did not, however, mention their names in his -letter, did he? - -Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned their war names, because this was the only -thing I knew. I probably put an Americano came too, two Cubans with an -American, and I gave the names of the Cubans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, -we will mark as Odio Exhibit No. 1. - -Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned in the second paragraph, "You are very alone -there in Dallas. You don't have anybody, so please do not open your -door to anybody that calls themselves my friends." - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the letter and I would like to have you -put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the -exhibit. - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes, okay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The letter is in Spanish, and you have underlined certain -parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in Spanish. Would you -read that translation to us? - -Mrs. ODIO. "Please tell me again who it is that calls himself my -friend. Be careful. I do not have any friends that have been near me -lately, not even in Dallas. So do not establish any friendships until -you give me their full names again." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does he say their "full names" in there? - -Mrs. ODIO. Their full names again, which means I had given their war -names. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you must have given the name Leopold? - -Mrs. ODIO. He says, "You are very alone with no man to protect you, and -you can be easily fooled." That is more or less what he says. We are 10 -brothers and sisters, a big family, and this has been very sad for both -of them. - -I have little brothers in Dallas in an orphanage. We have been, were a -very united family, and he is always worried about us being alone after -I divorced. He is still more worried, and he was always thinking that -somebody could come in my door. He also had a thought that somebody -could come by demanding money or something like that. You can probably -have somebody who knows Spanish do a better translation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This letter is dated December 25, 1963, is that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it is dated Nueva Gerona. Where is that? - -Mrs. ODIO. The capital of Isle of Pines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is a prisoner there? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are the prisoners permitted to write letters back and -forth? - -Mrs. ODIO. One letter a month, on one side. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would presume that the letters are read by Castro's men? - -Mrs. ODIO. They are all read. That is why I did not given him a lot -of details. I managed to write very small so they would have a time -reading it, like he does. You can see how perfectly he writes a letter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let me ask you how you managed to establish that -these men came in late September. You previously stated that you -couldn't remember the date exactly, but you had managed to establish it -as being in late September. Would you tell me the procedure that you -went through to establish that date in your mind? - -Mrs. ODIO. I told you my sister Annie was staying with some American -friends. She did not live with me. She had gone to live with the -Madlock's. And I called her many times to come and babysit for me -during certain weekends, and she would come either on a Thursday or -Friday, depending on when I called her. - -I told her that day that I was going out, but I wanted her to start -packing for me because we were moving over to Oak Cliff. It must have -been the last days of September, because we had already packages in the -living room. We had already started to pack to go, and we had to move -by the first of October since my rent was due that day, you see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you did move? - -Mrs. ODIO. We did move the first of October to Oak Cliff. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the address of the apartment in which you lived -before you moved to Oak Cliff? - -Mrs. ODIO. Over in, it was, I am almost sure of the number--1024 -Magellan Circle. It is the Crestwood Apartments. I am not sure of the -number; I think it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you were living at the Crestwood Apartments -at the time these men came to your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The Crestwood Apartments are full of Cubans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You left the Crestwood Apartments as of the first of -October and moved to Oak Cliff? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are absolutely sure that these men came to your -apartment before the first of October? - -Mrs. ODIO. Before the first of October. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been sometime toward the end of September, -because you recall that you had already started to pack to move from -the Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff? - -Mrs. ODIO. The packages were in the living room, and Annie was helping -me. She was actually taking things out of the closet when they came. -It took a long time to be sure of that, but I am certain of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with your sister, Annie? - -Mrs. ODIO. We had to, yes, sir; and she was convinced it was in late -September. Because she had not come the previous week. For 2 weeks, she -had not come, but had come the last week to help me pack and move. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a lease on your apartment, at the Crestwood -Apartments? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; they don't take you by lease. You give a deposit, and -you lose it if you move before 6 months. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you lived at the Crestwood Apartments 6 months? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because -of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in -Puerto Rico, and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th. - -That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to -establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from -Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this -movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to -buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with -one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell -him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution. - -I don't know if this is legal or illegal, I have no idea. But when he -mentioned this fact, I jumped at the possibility that something could -be done, because you kind of get desperate when you see your father and -mother in prison, and you want to do something for them. So I called -Eugenio long distance from Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, approximately? Shortly after you came back -from Puerto Rico? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think I can give you the exact date. This was before I -left for Puerto Rico. June 28, Eugenio arrived from Miami to see Johnny -Martin. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that on June 28 Eugenio arrived from Miami, is -that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. He was supposed to have arrived June 14, but he never did, -and I called two times to make another appointment with Johnny, and he -just arrived in time for me to see him. Then it was a time when we met, -not Alentado, the other one, Alvareda--Rodriguez Alvareda. - -So they went to my house. Now, I was living at the time at 6140 Oram -Street, the day they arrived. But when I went back to Puerto Rico, the -same day, June 29, I saw Ray, and I explained to him what Johnny Martin -here in Dallas was up to, and then he said that he was planning a trip -also to see if something could be worked out. Mr. Ray himself was -planning a trip in connection with that. He was going to Washington to -be interviewed by some high official. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he was going to come by Dallas first? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I went to Ponce, Puerto Rico, to get my children, -which were four of them, and I brought them back to Dallas. And this is -when I moved to Magellan Circle to a bigger apartment, to the Crestwood -Apartments. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You moved there, after you came back from Puerto Rico -with your children? - -Mrs. ODIO. I moved there exactly the end of July, the end of the month, -because I know when I moved, and then it was in August--let's see, I -lived there July, August, and to the last day of September in this -Magellan Circle, and then I moved to Oak Cliff. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You actually did meet with Eugenio here in Dallas before -you went to Puerto Rico? - -Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Eugenio come to Dallas at any other time after that -to meet you? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you met with Eugenio here in Dallas? - -Mrs. ODIO. Once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was in June of 1963? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it was not Eugenio who was with Leon when those men -came to your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; I would have known Eugenio. He was a very close friend -of my family and he did underground activity with my mother and father. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that it was Eugenio who had -come to the apartment with Leon? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Father McKann? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he called you on the telephone? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he did call me on the telephone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On April 30, 1964? - -Mrs. ODIO. The date, I don't recall. Probably. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was approximately the end of April or early May of -1964 when he called you from New Orleans? - -Mrs. ODIO. From New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing this whole question with him -at that time? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He asked me if I was withholding evidence of any kind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell him? - -Mrs. ODIO. I told him that everything that I knew I had already told -him, and that I didn't know anything else that I could recall that -could be important to you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The only time that you were ever interviewed by anybody -in connection with this was when Agent Hosty came to your place of work -that day, isn't that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. But three times I noticed a car standing -in front of my door where I live on Lovers Lane. I don't know if it -belonged to the Secret Service or the FBI, but I was kind of concerned -about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that one of the men--did you -tell him the names of the men who were there? - -Mrs. ODIO. I told him what I knew, the names of the men that I knew. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told him one was Leopoldo? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not tell him that you could identify the -other man as Eugenio? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell him that? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I have a report before me of an interview with -Father McKann by a representative of the U.S. Secret Service in which -it states that Father McKann told this Secret Service agent that you -had told him that one of the men was Eugenio. But you indicated now -that that is not so? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. Perhaps he could have misunderstood me, because he has -the same problems with names. Probably I did tell him that the man was -not Eugenio. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with him Eugenio's visit to -you in June? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think I discussed it with him, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During that telephone conversation? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think I discussed it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never -used in your presence by any of these men? - -Mrs. ODIO. Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when -they left. They did not refer to him as Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. And I shook hands with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is also what you told Agent Hosty when he -interviewed you on December 18, 1963, and that is indicated in his -report? - -Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a report that we have from Agent Hosty indicates -that when you told him about Leopoldo's telephone call to you the -following day, that you told Agent Hosty that Leopoldo told you he was -not going to have anything more to do with Leon Oswald since Leon was -considered to be loco? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. He used two tactics with me, and this I have -analyzed. He wanted me to introduce this man. He thought that I had -something to do with the underground, with the big operation, and I -could get men into Cuba. That is what he thought, which is not true. - -When I had no reaction to the American, he thought that he would -mention that the man was loco and out of his mind and would be the kind -of man that could do anything like getting underground in Cuba, like -killing Castro. He repeated several times he was an expert shotman. And -he said, "We probably won't have anything to do with him. He is kind of -loco." - -When he mentioned the fact that we should have killed President -Kennedy--and this I recall in my conversation--he was trying to play it -safe. If I liked him, then he would go along with me, but if I didn't -like him, he was kind of retreating to see what my reaction was. It was -cleverly done. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So he actually played both sides of the fence? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right, both sides of the fence. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Leopoldo tell you that Leon had been in the Armed -Forces? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? - -Mrs. ODIO. He said he had been in the Marines. That is what he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that Leon could help in the underground -activities in which you were presumably engaged? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Eugenio about this matter since -it happened? - -Mrs. ODIO. No, I have not even contacted him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Annie in Dallas now? - -Mrs. ODIO. She is coming now the end of July. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She is not here now? - -Mrs. ODIO. No, she is coming from Florida. She is coming to live with -me. She spent 6 months with my brother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what her address is in Florida? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. She is in--wait 1 second--Southwest 82d Place, Miami, -Fla. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old were these two men that were with Leon? - -Mrs. ODIO. One of them must have been--he had a mark on his face like, -I can't explain it--his complexion wasn't too soft. He was kind of like -as if he had been in the sun. So he must have been about near 40, one -of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one was that? - -Mrs. ODIO. But the other one was young. That was the tall one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was not Leopoldo? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Alentado was younger? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old was he, would you say? - -Mrs. ODIO. About 34, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now how old would you say Oswald was? Did you form an -opinion about that when you saw him at the time? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; I have never thought about it. I mean, I never thought -how old he was. He seemed to be a young man. I mean, not an old man. I -would say he was a young man; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say how old you thought he was after you saw -him that day in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. I can't say that. I can establish in my thoughts; yes, I -could establish an age, but I didn't think of it at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What age would you establish you thought about it? - -Mrs. ODIO. Oh, 34 or 35. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read the newspapers and watched television since -the assassination and observed Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. I read some of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read how old he was? - -Mrs. ODIO. I don't even know what age he is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he? - -Mrs. ODIO. He wasn't too tall. He was maybe 4 inches taller than I am. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you? - -Mrs. ODIO. I am 5 feet 6 inches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was about 5 feet 10? - -Mrs. ODIO. Probably. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how was he built? Was he a heavy man or a light man? - -Mrs. ODIO. He was kind of a skinny man, because the shirt looked big on -him, like it was borrowed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Like it was borrowed from somebody else? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; that is the impression he gave me, because it kind of -hung loose. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't fit well? - -Mrs. ODIO. It didn't fit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with the DRE movement -here in Dallas? - -Mrs. ODIO. Students Revolutionary Council, not at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any representatives of the DRE? - -Mrs. ODIO. I just knew one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that? - -Mrs. ODIO. Sarah Castilo. Now, I have heard about the directorate in -New Orleans, because I have family there and they told me about all the -incidents about him in New Orleans, about Oswald giving propaganda in -the street and how he was down in front of a judge and caused a fight -with Carlos Bringuier, and that, of course, this man had been working -pro-Castro in this Fair Play for Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, you mean? - -Mrs. ODIO. Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I have met him. I don't think he would remember me, but -I know who Carlos Bringuier is. They call him Carlitos. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think it was a long time ago in Cuba, or I was introduced -to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met him here in the United States? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who in New Orleans told you about this incident between -Bringuier and Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. My family discussed it in New Orleans how he had been handed -the propaganda. The other member of the directorate came along, and -they had a problem with him, because they were taken in front of a -judge. This was true. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read about that in the newspapers? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; I haven't. This I know from my family, the information -we heard from New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much of your family are living in New Orleans? - -Mrs. ODIO. I have an uncle and a cousin; a married cousin. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them told you about this? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think it was my uncle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at that time? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In New Orleans? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your uncle's name? - -Mrs. ODIO. Agustin Guitar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was this that you discussed this with him? - -Mrs. ODIO. February. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In February of 1964? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. I remember that, because I had just come out of an -operation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Joaquin Martinez de -Pinillos? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Emanuel Salvat? - -Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about him very much. I know who he is, but I -don't know him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you associate him with one of the Cuban organizations, -Salvat? - -Mrs. ODIO. If I have heard something about him, it has been attached to -some organization. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which one? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be the DRE? - -Mrs. ODIO. I can't say for sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Anna Silvera? - -Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about her, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how these three men came to your -apartment? Have you ever thought about it and tried to establish any -contact that they might have had with someone else that would have told -them to come to your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. They were coming from New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They came directly from New Orleans to your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. If it was true. It is very easy to find out any Cubans in -Dallas. Either you look in the phone book, or you call the Catholic -Relief Service. If you say you are a friend of so and so, they will -give you information enough. They will tell you where they live and -what their phone number is and how to contact them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no actual knowledge as to how these men came -by your address? - -Mrs. ODIO. I kind of asked them, and they told me because they knew my -family. That is how they established the conversation. They knew him -and wanted to help me, and knew I belonged to JURE and all this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you remember anything else about the incident -when Leon and the two men came to your apartment, or about the -telephone call that you got from Leopoldo, that you haven't already -told me about? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. If I have forgotten something, but I think all the -important things I have told you, like the trip, that they were leaving -for a trip. And this struck me funny, because why would they want to -meet me, if they were leaving for some reason or purpose. And it has -been a long time. You don't think about these things every day and I am -trying real hard to remember everything I can. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else that you think we should know -about that we haven't already asked you about in connection with this -whole affair? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. It would be involving my opinion, but anything that is -real facts of the thing, that really happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time you ever saw the man called Leon -Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. The only time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever told anybody else that you have seen him -other times? - -Mrs. ODIO. No, I don't think. It would be silly to withhold any -information. I mean, the involvement was very slight, and look how much -involved you get just from meeting him once. I have a pretty good idea -who called the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About what? - -Mrs. ODIO. You see, I did not call the FBI to tell them this fact. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why not? - -Mrs. ODIO. I was going to, but I had to get around to it to do it -myself, because at the time everything was so confused and everybody -was so excited about it, and I wanted to wait to see if it was -important. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you think called the FBI? - -Mrs. ODIO. Mrs. Connell, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you were interviewed by the FBI at your place -of work, did you have any opinion about the way that interview was -conducted? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. It brought me a lot of problems in my work. The two -men were extremely polite and nice, the two gentlemen from the FBI. -You know how people were afraid at the time, and my company, some -officials of it were quite concerned that the FBI should have come to -see me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Alentado these two men and how -they came to see you? - -Mrs. ODIO. I never talked to him about it. I decided not to mention -anything after the FBI came to see me, because I thought they were -going to contact him. I think I gave them the address and the telephone -number. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You gave that to the FBI? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He actually wouldn't know anything about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that because you asked these men if they had been -sent by Alentado and they said no? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell that you refer to is Mrs. C. L. Connell, is -that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know her? - -Mrs. ODIO. It is a strange thing. Everything that has happened to me -in the past year has been very strange. But I came from Ponce because -I was mentally sick at the time. I was very emotionally disturbed, and -they thought that a change from Puerto Rico to Dallas where my sister -was would improve me, which it did, of course. - -And I was supposed to see Dr. Cowley in Terrell. He is a Cuban -psychiatrist, but he was busy at the time and he couldn't help me. Mrs. -Connell belonged to the mental health and at the time she had helped -the Cuban group some because they had money, and I was introduced by my -sister. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which one? - -Mrs. ODIO. Sarita. She actually sent part of the money for my trip to -come here to Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I met her. We became very, very close friends, -extremely close, and she talked to Dr. Stubblefield and she got me a -psychiatrist which was Dr. Einspruch. I was here 4 months before I went -to get my children. We were close, like I said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you think she called the FBI about this? - -Mrs. ODIO. I am not certain of this, but I did discuss this with her -after it happened, because I trusted her completely. I discussed it and -told her that I was frightened, I didn't know what to do. I did not -know if it was anything of importance that I should tell the FBI. And I -was the only person--she was the only person I told. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch about it? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; but the things you talk with a doctor in an office, he -will tell you before that he is going to say it. He would have told me, -"I am going to tell the FBI." You have to trust a doctor, especially a -psychiatrist. I know they talked to him later, but I don't think it was -him that called the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mrs. Connell that you had seen Oswald at -some anti-Castro meetings, and that he had made some talks to these -groups of refugees, and that he was very brilliant and clever and -captivated the people to whom he had spoken? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure you never told her that? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen Oswald at any meetings? - -Mrs. ODIO. Never. This is something when you talk to somebody, she -probably was referring--we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino -spoke, who was an American, who was very clever and brilliant. I am not -saying that she is lying at all. When you are excited, you might get -all your facts mixed up, and Martino was one of the men who was in Isle -of Pines for 3 years. And he mentioned the fact that he knew Mr. Odio, -that Mr. Odio's daughters were in Dallas, and she went to that meeting. -I did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so I would not get -upset about it. I don't know if you know who John Martino is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the same man as Johnny Martin? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. A different one? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he? - -Mrs. ODIO. Martino is one that has written a book called "I was a -Prisoner in Castro Cuba," and he was on the Isle of Pines for 3 years. -He came to Dallas and gave a talk to the Cubans about conditions in -Cuba, and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; and my sister Annie went, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Einspruch tell you that he had talked to the FBI? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About this? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you roughly what his conversation with the -FBI was? - -Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had asked him if I had hallucinations, -that I was a person who was trying to make up some kind of story. That -was the context of our story. I trusted Dr. Einspruch very much. He -always told me the truth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had told the FBI that you did not have -hallucinations and you had probably not made this up? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Other people make it up, but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Einspruch tell you he had discussed this question -with some representatives of the President's Commission? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what that conversation was about? - -Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had talked about an hour and a half -about this whole thing, and he told them that he had already told me -the whole facts of the thing, and he said let's not mention it any -more. You know what we discussed. Don't be afraid. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still seeing Dr. Einspruch? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; I am through with therapy. He left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is no longer in Dallas? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; he left for Philadelphia for the U.S. Naval Hospital. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch that you had seen Oswald in -more than one anti-Castro Cuban meeting? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so, because I have never seen him before -except the day he came to the door. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen him since? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you had a fainting spell after -you heard about the assassination. Would you tell us about that, please? - -Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having fainting spells all the past year. I -would pass out for hours, and this was part of my emotional problems. -I was doing quite well except that I had come back from lunch, and I -cannot deny that the news was a great shock to me, and I did pass out. -I was taken in an ambulance to a hospital in Irving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the -President had been shot? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; when I started thinking about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you -passed out? - -Mrs. ODIO. Can I say something off the record? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -(Witness talks off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. At this point, let's go back on the record. You indicated -that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment -had something to do with the assassination? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought of that before you had the fainting -spell? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Of course, I have "psychiatric thinking." My -psychiatrist says I have psychiatric thinking. I mean, I can perceive -things very well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of thinking? - -Mrs. ODIO. He says I have tremendous intuition about things and -psychiatric thinking, which has helped me many times. So immediately, -for some reason, in my mind, I established a connection between the -two greasy men that had come to my door and the conversation that the -Cubans should have killed President Kennedy, and I couldn't believe it. -I was so upset about it. So probably the lunch had something to do with -it, too, and I was so upset, but that is probably why I passed out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard the name Oswald before you passed out? - -Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. It was only the connection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had made the connection in your mind between these -three men that came to your apartment, and the assassination? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Primarily because of the remarks they had made about how -the Cubans should have assassinated President Kennedy because of the -Bay of Pigs situation, is that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had not seen any pictures of Oswald or heard his name -prior to the time of your passing out? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't recall--maybe you could tell me what the exact -time they mentioned by the radio the name of the suspect. They spoke of -a suspect all the time, but they did not mention any name. And I think -I came out about 8 o'clock that night. They gave me a shot, so I did -not know any name until that night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you pass out? - -Mrs. ODIO. I came back from lunch about 5 minutes before 1 o'clock, -because we had to punch the clock at 1, and by 1:30 we knew the -President was dead, and we all decided to leave, and it was about 10 -minutes to 2 that we walked out of the office, and I think I passed out -back in the warehouse. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just after you left the office? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been sometime before 2 o'clock or right -after? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did these men indicate that they had all come from New -Orleans together? - -Mrs. ODIO. I am pretty sure that is what he said. Either that they had -been, or that they had just come. I cannot be sure of either one, but -they had been in New Orleans, or had just come from New Orleans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize these men again if you saw their -pictures, do you think? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think I could recognize one of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think they definitely look like Cubans? - -Mrs. ODIO. Well, this is my opinion. They looked very much like -Mexicans. But I might be wrong at that, because I don't remember any -Mexican accent. But the color of Mexicans, when I am referring to -greasy, that kind of complexion, that is what I mean. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man -who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in -connection with the assassination? - -Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture? - -Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it? - -Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then? - -Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I -mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and -she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she -said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no -doubts then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this man's voice? - -Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am not sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier -Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that -photograph? - -Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With the X? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I specifically call your attention to the man standing to -Oswald's right, the second man behind him, who is facing the camera and -has in his hand some leaflets. - -Mrs. ODIO. Does he have some glasses on? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The man that I just described? - -Mrs. ODIO. Does he have any glasses? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see the picture. - -Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build that that man has in the back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He has the same build? - -Mrs. ODIO. A lot of hair here [pointing to the right temple]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to this man here? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say that his hair appeared to be pulled back in some -way? - -Mrs. ODIO. One of them, Leopoldo, or the other one. One has very thick -hair. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are describing Leopoldo? - -Mrs. ODIO. He had hair in front, but he has it pushed back in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Like sort of a bald spot in his front? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Excuse me just a minute, I will be back. Now, you have -indicated that the individual standing immediately behind Oswald and -to his left, actually in front of the door of this building might look -something like one of the men that was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. That height and that tall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about the man standing immediately next to him, -so we have in the picture starting from the right, a head, and then a -man standing in the opposite direction from Oswald, and then we have -Oswald, and then we have the individual that you have just referred to -about his pushed back hair, or the bald spot in the front, and then we -have another man who has a group of leaflets in his hand. - -Mrs. ODIO. He looks familiar, but I don't think that was one of the men -I saw there at the door. I don't know, Cubans sometimes have the same -physique and everything, the narrowness of the shoulders. I mean the -back looks something like this man I am telling you about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you are unable to identify positively anybody else in -the picture other than Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; that's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo -Exhibit No. 453-B, which appears to show a front view of the man with -the bald spot, and I ask you if you recognize him as one of the men -that was with Oswald in the apartment. - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that it was not, or you are unable to say? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; that man was thinner and a little taller than that -picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are referring---- - -Mrs. ODIO. I am referring to this man now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a man with the white shirt whose -back is toward the camera? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about the man immediately behind Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; he was taller than that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's refer to this as No. 1. Does it appear to you that -the man who is standing sort of sideways to the camera immediately -behind Oswald in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same man as this man -who is immediately behind Oswald and facing away from the camera in -Bringuier Exhibit No. 1? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; it seems like a different back to me. Actually, possibly -the same person, but for some reason, maybe the picture gives him a -slimmer look. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You keep referring in Pizzo's exhibit to the man whose -back is to the camera with a white shirt? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he came with a white shirt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am having trouble, because I first thought that this -man here, who I will mark with the number 1 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B -is the same as the man who I will mark as No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit -No. 1, but it appears that that is not so? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; this man is this man in the picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So we have established that No. 2 in Bringuier's Exhibit -No. 1 is the same as the man marked No. 1 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B? - -Mrs. ODIO. Exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the man who we will mark 2 in Pizza's Exhibit No. -453-B is the man marked 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as the man marked No. 1 in Bringuier's -Exhibit No. 1 is concerned, you think when you see him there, that -might look like the man who was in the apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build in the back, and same kind of profile, -this side. Here he looks a little broader, and that is not him. It is -the same man, but that wasn't the way Leopoldo looked. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the man marked 2 in Exhibit No. 453-B, Pizzo, does not -look like the man who was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You cannot in any event recognize the man who we shall -mark 3 in both pictures; is that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. Correct. Let me look at that man here [looking]. He wasn't -one of them, but he looks so familiar to somebody, this one, the one -that has his hand on his face. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the man who we shall mark 4 in Pizzo's -Exhibit No. 453-B looks somewhat familiar? - -Mrs. ODIO. Somewhat familiar; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you -recognize anybody in that picture? - -Mrs. ODIO. Who is this man? - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the man who we shall mark 1 on -Exhibit No. 453-A. Does he look familiar to you? - -Mrs. ODIO. The color of him looks familiar. That was more or less the -color of that short man. He did not look real white. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does it appear to you that the man we have marked 1 in -Exhibit No. 453-A is an oriental? - -Mrs. ODIO. Is an oriental? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know. Does it look like it to you? - -Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am just talking about the color of his face, -the same color. Now he looks more familiar in this picture, you see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this, you point to the man who we will mark -2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and he is the same man who is No. 2 in -Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, and No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? They -all seem to be the same man, don't they? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think they are all the same man, but for some reason in -this picture, he is wearing glasses, isn't he? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, it looks like it; doesn't it? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man wear glasses who was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He did? - -Mrs. ODIO. Didn't wear them all the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you recognize Oswald in any of these pictures; in -Exhibit No. 453-A? - -Mrs. ODIO. [Pointing.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate the man with the green X over his head as -being Oswald, and that is the man who was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. He looks a little bit fatter. I don't know if it is the -picture. He looked thinner when he was in the apartment, than he looks -in this picture. He was kind of drawn when he was there. His face was -kind of drawn. But he looks more familiar there. He looks more like he -looked that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Exhibit No. 453-B, the man with the green line over -his head looks more like the man that was in your apartment; is that -correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line -over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B was the man who was in your -apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. Well, if it is not, it is his twin. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner -Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you recognize that man. - -Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man who was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure? - -Mrs. ODIO. He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that -he had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that -day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C and ask you if that -looks like the man who was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. That is not the expression he had, but he has the same -forehead and everything. But his lips, the only thing that confuses me -is the lips that did not look like the same man. It is that unshaved -thing that got me that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C appear to you, does the man -in that picture appear to be somewhat unshaven, or similar to the one -you saw in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think he was not. The only thing he had not shaved was -around where the mouth is, and everything else was shaved. That is way -he looked, kind of clothes hanging on him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think that is him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one -that was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't -look like this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in -this picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have to put the pictures down on the record, because -when somebody reads the record--you say that he---- - -Mrs. ODIO. He looks more relaxed in Exhibit No. 453-C. He looks more -smiling, like Exhibit No. 453-B, or different countenance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have some motion pictures of the scene that we have -been looking at here in these still pictures. These pictures that have -been marked Exhibit Nos. 453-B and 453-C were taken from a movie that -was made of that, and we also have on that movie a picture of Lee -Oswald as he appeared on the television program in New Orleans on a -sound track. I want you to look at those pictures and tell us after you -have looked at the pictures if you think that man was the same man who -was in your apartment. - -I have not yet made arrangements for the projector to be set up, and -there is an FBI agent bringing another picture over here from the FBI -office that I want you to look at this morning before you leave. But -I would like to have you--and I have another witness waiting for me, -and I have nine more witnesses. Could you come back later this evening -to look at the motion pictures? And in the meantime, I will have the -Secret Service set up a projection room to view the films? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we terminate momentarily now, and as soon as -the FBI comes over, I will show you this picture, and I will call the -Secret Service and find out when he can set up the viewing of this -film, and I will tell you what time to come back. - -Mrs. ODIO. Since I am going to be downtown, do you want me to come back -any special time? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will tell you as soon as I talk to Mr. Sorrels. - -Mrs. ODIO. Before I leave? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I can't tell you before you leave. I will see if I can -set up a time. When you say that these men came to your apartment in -late September of 1963, can you give me your best recollection as -to how long before the first of October they came? You moved out of -your apartment in the Crestwood Apartments on the very last day of -September; is that correct? Or can you remember? Is there any way you -can check that by finding out when you moved into your apartment in Oak -Cliff? - -Mrs. ODIO. The day I moved, I had gone to work, so it must have been on -a Monday or Tuesday. This man must have come by the end of the previous -weekend. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a 1963 calendar and point out to you that the -last day of September was Monday. - -Mrs. ODIO. That is probably the day I moved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say that you also started working at a new job -that same day? - -Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you had been working on the day that you did move? - -Mrs. ODIO. I started working initially the 15th of September, because -it was too far away where I lived in Irving. I started the 15th of -September, I am almost sure of the 15th or the 9th. Let me see what -day was the 9th. It was a Monday. It was the 9th, sir, that I started -working at National Chemsearch. - -(Special Agent Bardwell O. Odum of the Federal Bureau of Investigation -entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. Odum from the FBI. As a matter of fact, Mr. -Odum was the man that interviewed you. - -Mrs. ODIO. I remember. He looked very familiar. - -Mr. ODUM. What is the name? - -Mrs. ODIO. Odio. - -Mr. ODUM. I interview so many people, it slips my mind at the moment. - -(Agent Odum left the hearing room.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the -30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th -of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that? - -Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it -could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated previously that Leopoldo called you the -immediately following day after they had been there; is that correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified, according to my recollection, -that you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you; is that -correct? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes; it would be the 26th or the 27th for sure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you work on Saturday? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; but he could have called me Saturday. But they would -have come Thursday or Friday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thursday or Friday? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because you had been at work on the day they came? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had been at work on the day -that Leopoldo called you? - -Mrs. ODIO. I don't recall that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You can't recall that? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. I know I was very busy with the kids, but I don't -remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture which depicts the same individual -that is depicted in an exhibit which has previously been marked -Commission Exhibit No. 237, and I ask you if you recognize that man. - -Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is not the man that was with Leon when he came to -your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. I wish I could point him to you. One was very tall and -slim, kind of. He had glasses, because he took them off and put them -back on before he left, and they were not sunglasses. And the other one -was short, very Mexican looking. Have you ever seen a short Mexican -with lots of thick hair and a lot of hair on his chest? - -Mr. LIEBELER. So there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the -shorter one was rather husky? - -Mrs. ODIO. He was not as big as this man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Not as big as the man in Exhibit No. 237? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man in Exhibit No. 237 that had a pushed back -spot on his head? - -Mrs. ODIO. It was different. In the middle of his head it was thick, -and it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, I -didn't notice that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was the taller man; is that right? The one known as -Leopoldo? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess? - -Mrs. ODIO. He was thin--about 165 pounds. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How tall was he, about? - -Mrs. ODIO. He was about 3-1/2 inches, almost 4 inches taller than I -was. Excuse me, he couldn't have. Maybe it was just in the position he -was standing. I know that made him look taller, and I had no heels on -at the time, so he must have been 6 feet; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? -Was he taller or shorter than Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. Shorter than Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how much, could you guess? - -Mrs. ODIO. Five feet seven, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He weighed about how much, would you say? - -Mrs. ODIO. 170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but -he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion. - -Mrs. LIEBELER. Was it pock marked, would you say? - -Mrs. ODIO. No; it was like--it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like -he had been in the sun for a long time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the -film to you tonight. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO RESUMED - -The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 6:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, -at the office of the Secret Service, 505 North Ervay Street, Dallas, -Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the -U.S. Secret Service were present. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the continued deposition of Mrs. Sylvia Odio, -which is now being continued in the office of the Secret Service. We -have made arrangements in the presence of Agent Forrest Sorrels and -Agent Howlett, to show some movie films of some street scenes in the -city of New Orleans, and also a television appearance that Lee Harvey -Oswald made over station WDSU in New Orleans in August of 1963. I want -to ask Mrs. Odio to watch the film, and if you recognize anybody in the -film at any time say so as you see him and point the individual out and -we will run the film backward and see what it looks like at that time. -Please go ahead, John. - -Mrs. ODIO [viewing film]. The man from the back with the glasses, I -have seen him, the tall thin one. I would like to see the beginning -where the man started coming in. - -(Film was rerun.) - -Mrs. ODIO. You see the one with the glasses, that thin man. He doesn't -have a mustache, though. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That third man there? - -Mrs. ODIO. I will show you the back when he comes. The man over to the -right in the white shirt from the back, that looks so familiar. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That one right over there? - -Mrs. ODIO. Right; he has the same build. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you back it up, John? Let me ask you this now, -Sylvia. Did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes; definitely. He made a television appearance. He -looked much more similar than the pictures from New Orleans. He had the -same mustache here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the television appearance? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about in the pictures that you saw in the police -station of him standing against the wall when he walked out of the -police station, did that look like the man that was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about his voice? Did you recognize any similarity in -his voice? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. I don't know if it was because in the television it -changed, or something, and he didn't speak too much that day, and it is -hard to remember a voice after such a long time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After looking at this picture, are you more convinced, or -less convinced, or do you still have about the same feeling that you -had before you looked at it that the man who was in your apartment late -in September was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. I have to be careful about that, because I have the same -feeling that it was, but at the same time I have been looking at papers -for months and months of pictures, and these help you to remember too -much. I wish I could isolate the incident without remembering the other -pictures. I have a feeling there are certain pictures that do not -resemble him. It was not the Oswald that was standing in front of my -door. He was kind of tired looking. He had a little smile, but he was -sunken in in the face that day. More skinny, I would say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking -at these pictures that the man that was in your apartment was the same -man as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to run the picture once more, John? - -Mrs. ODIO. What I am trying to establish is the man with the bald in -the back was similar to the profile, but he seems lighter in this -picture. But the men looked like Mexicans. They did not look like -Cubans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now we have here two pictures that have been made from -films of this movie. - -Mrs. ODIO. In that picture he didn't resemble that at all [pointing]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B; the man -marked with the number 2? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the same man you have been talking about as -looking similar? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. But in the motion picture he looks thinner and -I was trying to give you an idea of the man that I saw that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the man you saw in the motion picture, -who is the same man marked number 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, could -have been the same man that was in your apartment with Oswald? - -Mrs. ODIO. I think he had a mustache, and this man in the apartment -does not have any mustache. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But otherwise, you think that he looks similar? - -Mrs. ODIO. They have the same stature and same build and profile. I can -say he was standing to the side in the door, and his hair was pulled -back on one side. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to run through it again, please? - -(Film was rerun.) - -Mrs. ODIO. The picture that resembled most, even though his hair was -not so cut that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have referred to the individual that was walking out -of the police station? - -Mrs. ODIO. With his back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He had a mustache, and he had glasses on? - -Mrs. ODIO. That day he did not have a mustache. He just had glasses, -and he would take them off and on. Lee Oswald--Leon is fatter in this -picture than what I actually saw him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think this man standing on the corner, who is No. 2 -in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, is the same man you saw walking out of the -police station? - -Mrs. ODIO. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is a different man? - -Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The one that is walking out of the door, kind -of thin-looking individual, is darker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is the man that was walking out of the police station? - -Mrs. ODIO. You want me to point it out? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Run it back. I think we should indicate in the -record there was a confusion in my mind, because I think it is pretty -clear that the man that was walking out of the police station is a -different man than is in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. - -Mrs. ODIO. He looked greasy looking. I will tell you when [looking at -film]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it that man with the sunglasses that walked out of the -door? - -Mrs. ODIO. That is the picture I see. That picture is what I mean. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. There he is again [indicating individual with -mustache leaving police station with Carlos Bringuier and others -depicted on film]. - -Mrs. ODIO. There he is again; big ears, but from the front, he doesn't -resemble it. It is the same build from the back, that thin neck. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that that man we have just seen in the picture -resembles one of the men that was in your apartment? - -Mrs. ODIO. From the back, because I remember that I put the light on on -the porch, and I saw them get in the car. I wanted to be sure they were -gone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it is clearly not the same individual? - -Mrs. ODIO. No, sir; clearly not the same. I am trying to see something, -to put something in paper that would make me remember. [The film was -rerun but the witness did not recognize anyone depicted on it except as -indicated above.] - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Odio. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE - -The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 23, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite familiar with the proceedings of the -Commission and with the Commission's rules governing the taking of -testimony, since you have given testimony perhaps longer than any -other witness we have had, so we won't go through all the rituals of -explaining the purposes of why I am here, and I will come right to the -point. - -In the testimony that you gave before the Commission, Mr. Jenner asked -you about the events of the evening of November 21, 1963, as regards -the relations between Lee and Marina. There was also considerable -testimony about their whereabouts and about the possibility that Oswald -wrapped the rifle up that evening, but I am not particularly concerned -about that. I do want to focus on your impression of the relations -between Lee and Marina at that time. - -As I recall, the preceding Sunday you had called Oswald at his -roominghouse and asked for Lee Oswald and, of course, were not able to -talk to him because he was living there under the alias of O. H. Lee. -As I understand, on the following Monday Oswald called Marina, as was -his custom, and they had a considerable discussion over the use of the -alias, and after that conversation, or conversations that took place on -Monday, Lee did not call Marina again that week; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's my impression. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how many times Oswald called Marina on -Monday? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, he called nearly every evening while he was working -during the week--he usually called around 5:30, just to talk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But specifically, on this Monday following the Sunday -on which you called the roominghouse and asked for him, the Monday on -which they had the argument about his use of the alias, do you remember -how many times he called and talked to Marina on that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. On that particular Monday--only once, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Only one time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you, after she talked to him that Monday, -what the conversation was about? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said--and I believe I have testified to this--that -she was clearly upset. You are asking me what she told me of the -conversation? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I, of course, could tell that she was upset while talking -to him, although I didn't understand much of what she said to him, as -I was in the same room. She said that he was living under a different -name; was angry that we had tried to call him and she said that this is -not the first time she had felt between two fires, and I judge that she -meant between a loyalty to him and a feeling that what he was doing was -not right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that this wasn't the first time that she felt -between two fires, or did she use an expression that "this isn't the -first time I felt 22 fires?" - -Mrs. PAINE. "Between two fires," is my memory on that. Twenty-two -fires? This is a common expression in Russian; it's like between the -Devil and the deep blue sea. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Between two fires, you mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the only problem that I have is that on page 45 of -volume 3, of the page proofs your testimony indicates that. - -Mrs. PAINE. That's why I would like to read my testimony. That's just -incorrect. Between 22 fires--no, no--this is not it. This should be, -"This is not the first time I felt between two fires," which, as I say, -is like our expression, "Between the Devil and the deep blue sea." - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will correct the page proofs to reflect that on your -previous testimony. - -Mrs. PAINE. It occurs twice there, I see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Did she tell you of any detail of what the argument -was about--what the situation was? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said that she felt he should not be using an -alias. It wasn't contained in anything that was said, but I got the -feeling that she was upset with his doing this or thinking that he -should or could do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not Oswald had told her why -he was using the alias? - -Mrs. PAINE. She did not tell me anything about why. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any ideas as to why he might be doing it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did suppose the possibility--it is possible that he -was worried about it being found out at the School Book Depository that -he had a Russian wife. He did ask me to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Frazier -not to ask questions, not to discuss the fact that he had a Russian -wife with the coworkers at the School Book Depository. I think he felt -that, if this was known, it would also become known that he went to -Russia and the circumstances of that, and he felt, and this was a sheer -guess on my part, and I judge that he felt this would make his job -tenure unsure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you do say, however, that Oswald did ask -you to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Wesley Frazier not to talk about Oswald's -Russian wife at the School Book Depository; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right; so that my impression is supported to that -extent. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Mrs. Randle to ask Mr. Frazier to do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not she did? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said she had already discussed it and she judged that -they would not be talking about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Mrs. Randle ever specifically -mentioned it to Frazier after you talked to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Oswald asked you to do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was very shortly after he got the job--it was in the -first week, I would say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she was angry with Oswald for -using this alias? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was clear that she was angry--on the face of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was clear to you on Monday after the conversation -she had with Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, of course, did not call Marina at any time during -the rest of that week. Did you and Marina discuss the reasons for this? - -Mrs. PAINE. We didn't discuss reasons. She did say on Wednesday, is my -recollection, that she said, "He thinks he's punishing me," after I -told her the fact that he was not calling as he usually did, and her -comment was, "He thinks he's punishing me." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Marina continued to remain angry with -Oswald throughout that week for his use of the alias? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think she continued to remain angry--no. We did -briefly discuss why he came on Thursday, with one another, after his -arrival. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get to that, what was your impression of the -relations, if Marina didn't tell you, between Marina and Oswald prior -to the evening of Thursday, November 21? - -Mrs. PAINE. They had a good many arguments and occasional heated words, -and I felt this was--well, that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling -of anger--I don't know about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that Marina is not one to maintain a -feeling of anger? What is the basis for that judgment on your part? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have very little basis. Perhaps--she did write -me during the summer, and you have that correspondence, saying that -things were better when she didn't argue, and that may be the outward -circumstances that I'm talking about. She certainly was cordial to Lee -when he arrived on Thursday, and relations were normal between them, I -would say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That's really what I want to come to and I want to ask -you about, and you did say that on page 47 of volume 3 in your previous -testimony. Mr. Jenner asked you as regards the evening of November 21, -"Was there a coolness between them?" - - Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early. She stayed up and talked - with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was - quite friendly on the lawn as we---- - -Then, Mr. Jenner said, "I mean coolness between himself and--between -Lee and Marina." - - Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they - seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat. I should - interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the - house and Lee had just come in. I said to him, "Our President - is coming to town." - -You indicated specifically here that he was quite friendly on the lawn -and that you noticed no coolness between them. Now, what was Marina's -response to all this, the best you can recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. You recall that he was there when I arrived from the -grocery store. They had already met. Her response was really to me, as -he had gone on into the house. She mentioned to me her embarrassment -that he hadn't called and asked if he could come. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's response to Lee, did I understand -from reading your previous testimony that both you and Marina were -of the opinion that Oswald had come home that night to make up the -argument that Marina and Lee had had on the telephone on Monday; isn't -that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald acted in a manner that led you to believe that -he had come home specifically to make up the argument? - -Mrs. PAINE. That it was at least conciliatory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald do that led you to believe that he wanted -to make up the argument? Did he do anything different out of the -ordinary? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I would say just the contrary, that he proceeded as he -might normally have done on a Friday night coming home or coming to the -house for the weekend. I don't think--I would be certain that he made -no apology, just from my judgment of the man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At least, you didn't hear him make any apology? - -Mrs. PAINE. I certainly didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him ask Marina to move into Dallas with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he might have asked her to do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. She told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed -to her--she told me the night of the 22d that he had expressed to her -his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have -their apartment together. The setting in which she told me this left -me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be -making a gesture toward the reestablishing of their family life when -at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that -would necessarily destroy their family life. There was no indication to -her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. I -have since heard this by rumor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I'm going to read some more of the testimony to you -momentarily, some of Marina's testimony, and I want to discuss it with -you, but there is one bit of it particularly that I am confused about -just from reading it and I get from it the possible inference and you -also, I believe, indicate on page 49 of your testimony, that on the -evening of the 21st you and Marina discussed plans for Christmas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it was then--I'm not positive that it was -that night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation between you and Marina to -the effect that Oswald was not to come back to Irving any more until -Christmas time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, absolutely not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was no indication that his pattern of coming on -weekends was to change in any manner? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; we had previously talked in terms of their staying at -the house through Christmas and then the Oswalds getting an apartment -again when they had saved up a little money, around the first of the -year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me read to you a part of the testimony that Marina -gave. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which, frankly, seems to me somewhat inconsistent with -the testimony that you have given about the events of this evening, -although perhaps, these things might have happened outside of your -presence and you were not aware of them. This appears at page 65 of -volume 1 of the hearings. - - Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on - Thursday? - -This, of course, was on Thursday, November 21. - - Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come - the preceding weekend and he wanted to make his peace with me. - - Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then? - - Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me, but I would not answer him - and he was very upset. - - Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him? - - Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry, he was - upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent - quite a bit of time putting away diapers and playing with the - children on the street. - - Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry - with him? - - Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him. - - Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset? - - Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer - him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, - but I would not answer and he said that he didn't want me to be - angry at him because this upsets him. - - On that day he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. - He said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the - reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not - living together, that if I want to, he would rent an apartment - in Dallas tomorrow, that he didn't want me to remain with - Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas. He - repeated this not once, but several times, but I refused. And - he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him and - I didn't need him. - - Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? - - Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth - until the holidays, he would come and that we would all meet - together and this was better, because while he was living alone - and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money and I told - him to buy me a washing machine, because with two children it - became too difficult to wash by hand. - - Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that? - - Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine. - - Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? - - Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, that it would be better if he bought - something for himself, that I would manage. - -Mrs. PAINE. I want to point out that she referred to his playing with -the children on the street, meaning outdoors--the phrase is the same in -Russian, that is to say, the translation--it can mean either outdoors -or on the street. - -When I arrived, he had been there for at least, I will say, 15 minutes. -I arrived around 5:30 and a good deal of this might have happened prior -to then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you came home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Prior to the time I arrived--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the next two sentences here I will read to you--two -or three sentences more. - - Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset when you - suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to - live in? - - Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and - watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. - It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep - at about 11:30, but it seemed to me that he was not really - asleep, but I didn't talk to him. - -I suggest that that testimony would indicate that there probably was a -considerable degree of coolness between the Oswalds that evening; would -it suggest that to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. It would suggest that to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At least that their relations would not be normal. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I might describe what I think normal is. I said I -thought their relations were fairly normal. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was there usually a good deal of coolness between -them? - -Mrs. PAINE. They would often have small arguments--he wanted potatoes, -or where was the ketchup level of arguments, which I felt just -reflected a tension between them that showed in this way. - -Now, very little was said--I don't remember well, but it was not -uncommon for him to eat his meal and then leave the table before other -people did. I don't remember specifically, but it's possible he did -that night and go in to watch the television. In other words, his -efforts at being sociable or friendly even was never very great. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, specifically, the part of your testimony, of -course, that I have difficulty in reconciling with the testimony I have -just read is when Mr. Jenner asked you if you detected any coolness -between Marina and him and you responded, "I didn't notice any such -coolness. Rather, they seemed warm like a couple making up a small -spat." - -How clear and how definite is your recollection of the events of that -evening? I can't possibly reconcile in my mind the testimony that -Marina gave with the notion that they looked like a couple that were -making up from a small spat, and as far as that goes you can't either. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't--that may be just my interpretation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing Marina's testimony and reflecting on what -happened that night, do you think that this testimony is consistent -with what you remember having happened there that night? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I saw nothing of the argument she describes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I appreciate that. - -Mrs. PAINE. I saw no continuing of it in the sense that they threw -barbs at each other later. I don't recall any such altercation, and -as I say, I just don't remember well enough whether it was that night -as he had on other nights--he ate and left the table without much -conversation--or just what happened. It was really my assumption, I -would say, that he was there to make up the quarrel over the telephone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you specifically discussed that with Marina that -evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you both agreed that that was the reason he came -there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. No; I don't mean that I specifically recall real -warmth being shown, but that his behavior was much as it often was and -I judged that he was there to make up for the fight in some way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you also thought from observing Marina that she was -glad to have him make up the spat or that they had made the spat up? - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see anything opposite to that, at least, so I was -left with my assumption unchallenged. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, as far as you know, the events that are described by -Marina's testimony that I have just read--could perfectly well have -happened. - -Mrs. PAINE. It could perfectly well have happened--indeed--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination, did you think about your -previous judgment that Oswald had come out there that evening to make -up the argument that he had with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's what I thought he must have come for. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing this testimony, as it occurred between -Marina and Lee that evening, do you think that could have had anything -to do with his attitudes and feelings the next day? - -Mrs. PAINE. What you read of her testimony is news to me. I had no -idea what the tone was of any words that passed between them, and as I -say, all I heard that was in any way familiar to me, was that he had -asked her to take an apartment--nothing about it being right away. I -would say it could certainly have affected his thinking about it the -next day. It is conceivable even that he hadn't seriously thought about -shooting the President, but that would be sheer conjecture on my part. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a washing machine in your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina use it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. If I may say--that I am disturbed by what she said. -I was concerned all along in this arrangement that Lee not resent my -being--my offering a place for Marina, and what she said would do a -good deal to raise resentment in him, I would think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, of course, was aware of the fact that you did not -want to conduct yourself in such a manner as to breed resentment on -Oswald's part with respect to his relations with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. We never discussed it explicitly. I probably would have if -my Russian had been better. She at one point said to him on a weekend -when he came out that my Russian was improving while his was getting -worse, and I was embarrassed to have her say this. I may have testified -to this, and just pointed out that I was getting more practice than he -at that time was, but my feeling was that this was a mistake on her -part in terms of his feelings to say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that in front of him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's why I spoke up immediately and said, "Well, you -know a lot more vocabulary than I did." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified that Marina was not always -entirely considerate of Oswald's feelings in the presence of others. -Would you think that would be a fair statement? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I seldom saw them in the presence of others. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the presence of others--I mean yourself. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the incident you have just related, of course, is an -example. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say that it is an example and I am trying to -think of others that I can make a generalization. I can't make a real -generalization like that, and the reason I said, "In front of others," -is because I do recall also, and I testified to this, that when they -first went down to New Orleans he got an apartment for her and I felt -he was very anxious that she like it, and her responses to him were -just simply not as enthusiastic as it was clear he had hoped. This was -not embarrassing in front of someone else in a sense it wasn't that -noticeable a thing, but I did feel that she wasn't trying very hard to -understand his hope to please her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be a fair statement in your opinion that in -point of fact both of these people were more interested in tearing each -other down than they were in complementing each other or in trying -to accommodate themselves to each other or to work out some sort of -sincere relationship between themselves? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think you can be that curt about it. Marina never -did speak to me about wanting to leave him. She spoke, and this appears -in her letters too, of wishing to get along and spoke and wrote that -she was encouraged that relations seemed better. It seemed to me -that she accepted this as a situation a good deal short of ideal but -nonetheless the one she was in and one she was to work with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My characterization assumed a continuance of the -relationship. A simple solution perhaps to many situations like this, -of course, is for people to leave each other. But while they were -together--I'm not trying to get you to say that this is so--I have -never seen them together, of course. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But I have seen other people in whose behavior I might -find some similarities to the Oswalds or what I think the Oswalds' -situation might have been on the basis of the testimony we have -had. But also, you said before there was a general coolness between -them--Oswald would argue about the ketchup. You indicated something -about the ketchup. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Little things like this: Marina made a statement in front -of you that your Russian was getting better and Oswald's was getting -worse, and of course, the testimony that Marina gave herself about what -happened between them--I am wondering if you know Marina Oswald or -Oswald well enough to make a judgment about this sort of thing. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I don't, and it's my guess that there was a -lot more argument and contention between them than what I saw, just -judging from what I have heard other people have said about it. I did -see them trade barbs or comments and in that sense the answer was "yes" -to your question of did they seem willing or out to hurt one another. -I can't remember just how you phrased it. They were certainly not -proceeding toward a mature relationship though---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about sexual -relations between herself and Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you testified about that previously? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you care to tell us? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will say this, that it is part of what convinced me that -she was interested in helping the relationship. We talked about going -to Planned Parenthood to get contraceptive information there 6 weeks -after the birth of Rachel, that is, we were to go then for that. It -must have been myself that suggested that she discuss with one of the -counselors there her feelings about their sexual relationship. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you her feelings about the sexual -relationship? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I'll answer that simply--I don't think--let -me say that I feel that the exposure of her private life has been -considerable and should be limited to what is pertinent, and I think -what is pertinent is whether she thought she would stay with him or -not, and whether she planned to try to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified to us that Marina said in -front of Oswald and in front of them that Oswald was not a satisfactory -man in terms of sexual relations with her and that she did not obtain -satisfaction with him and that he was, as far as she was concerned, -much less than a man in his sexual relations with her, and I wonder if -she told you some of those things. - -Mrs. PAINE. Surely nothing was said in his presence and I am shocked -to hear that she discussed it in his presence with other people, which -sounds like an attempt simply to injure him rather than an attempt to -help the situation that needed help. Now, no doubt my own attitudes -affect how a person talks to me. She may have sensed that I was -interested in a reconciliation, and their feelings, and would have -known that I would not have accepted this, or perhaps not wanted to put -it that way with respect to the denouncement of him, but it certainly -was not put that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she suggest to you that she was not satisfied with -her sexual relations with Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you anything about the separation that -occurred between herself and Oswald in the fall of 1962 in November? - -Mrs. PAINE. She mentioned that she had once left him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any of the details of it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably very few of the details--I didn't know to whom she -went. She described him as being ashen and shocked when she actually -did walk out and then as pleading with her to come back, after a week, -which she did, and that he said everything would be different and that -she commented that it wasn't different and that was virtually all that -was said about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever mention George De Mohrenschildt to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, that's how I met her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You know De Mohrenschildt yourself? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have met him once at a gathering where I first met the -Oswalds, so I knew that they knew them--they were the mutual friend -between the hosts of the evening party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Glover? - -Mrs. PAINE. And the Oswalds, but that's the only time I have seen the -De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever say anything to you about De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean that that might have been to whom she went? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I just want to know if she ever discussed De -Mohrenschildt with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall her discussing a child. Now, this is what I am not -sure about, again my understanding of her Russian may have interfered. -She talked, I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt has a child or it may be -his, and that this person is married and has a child, but I never got -that straight as to who was married. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She never discussed her own feelings about De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever indicate that De Mohrenschildt was in any -way involved or related to the separation that occurred between herself -and her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. However, I would -like to ask you one more. - -You have previously been questioned about and have heard about a -supposed telephone call that was supposed to have been made from -Michael Paine's office to your home shortly after the assassination, -and I do not represent that I have knowledge of such call--that such -call was ever made, but as you know, there were rumors to the effect -that this man and woman together in this conversation--that one of -them said that he wasn't really responsible for the assassination and -they both knew who was and I think both you and Michael have testified -about this before and have denied that there was any such telephone -conversation between you and anyone. - -Was there a telephone conversation of any kind between you and Michael -between your residence and Michael's office on November 22 or November -23, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have testified to the fact that Michael called--I don't -know whether it was from the cafeteria where he had been eating or more -likely from his office, to my home, on the 22d. He had learned of the -assassination at lunchtime and called to tell me to find out if I knew -it, and this was the entire substance of the conversation. I told him I -did know--from watching TV. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the only telephone conversation between those -two numbers on those 2 days that you know of? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever thought or had reason to believe that -Marina Oswald was responsible in any way for Oswald's assassinating the -President? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never meant to suggest anything or never said -anything that would suggest that to Michael or anybody else? - -Mrs. PAINE. No--never--that has absolutely not occurred to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of course; my question doesn't mean to imply that she is -so responsible. Had you and Michael ever discussed Oswald's alleged -attack on General Walker? - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean since the assassination of President Kennedy--have -we discussed it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--at any time. - -Mrs. PAINE. I suppose we have--I'm sure we have talked of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael ever indicate to you in any way that he had -knowledge of Oswald's attack on General Walker prior to November 22, -1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain he had not--his indications -were such that he had no such information. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By that answer you mean to say, one, that he did not -indicate to you before the assassination that he did have knowledge, -and, two, after the assassination when it became known that Oswald had -been involved in the General Walker shooting, Michael didn't indicate -then that he had had any prior knowledge of it? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. Of course, it wasn't until several -days--more than a week after the assassination that something was -printed about Oswald there having been involved in an attempt on Walker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as you know, Michael knew nothing about that -until he found out about it in the newspaper? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When the Dallas police and other authorities came out to -your house, they eventually took all of Oswald's personal effects, did -they not? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything left in your house that belonged to -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; they were eventually taken by Robert Oswald in company -with John Thorne and Jim Martin. That was probably the first weekend in -December, or at least 2 weeks after the assassination--more likely 3. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what was among these things that Robert -Oswald and Mr. Martin took? - -Mrs. PAINE. They took the clothes from the closet, boxes and things -that I did not look into. I have heard from the police that it also -included an old camera which they had to chase later and went up to -Robert Oswald's to find it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any newspapers or magazines or anything like -that, copies of The Militant or The Worker? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not see--most of what was done was what was put in. I -busied myself in the bedroom getting out what was to go--what was the -Oswald's property. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did, of course, receive copies of The Worker and -The Militant at your address? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had seen that he received The Worker. I had never opened -The Militant. I noticed on November 23 when I looked at the pile of -second class mail and third class mail that was waiting for him to come -that weekend that it included a copy of The Militant--that was the -first I had noticed. This is after it had been in the newspaper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which issue of The Militant that was, -do you? - -Mrs. PAINE. It must have been the current one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I threw it away, along with The Worker and a Russian paper, -I guess. It was unopened and still in its jacket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when it had come? - -Mrs. PAINE. During the week--well, no; it could have been during the 2 -weeks since he hadn't been there over the weekend. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, he did come up on Thursday night? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it wasn't discussed and it wasn't pointed out then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, how did he usually handle this problem with the -mail--he was accustomed to receiving these pieces--the issues of the -newspaper, at your address, wasn't he? - -Mrs. PAINE. I handed it to him or laid them on the couch for him to -look at when he arrived on Friday night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he hadn't looked at these newspapers that had come -during the period from his last visit to Thursday? - -Mrs. PAINE. That's right; he had not been there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't look at those on Thursday? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many newspapers did you throw away, do you remember -what they were? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall particularly The Militant and The Worker -and it seems to me there was the Russian Minsk paper too, but I'm not -certain. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one copy of The Militant? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember when it had come? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many copies of The Worker? - -Mrs. PAINE. One. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I believe that's all. Thank you for coming in. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL RALPH PAINE - -The testimony of Michael Ralph Paine was taken at 12:05 p.m., on July -23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath, -please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give -will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record? - -Mr. PAINE. Michael Ralph Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are familiar with the Commission's procedure and you -have testified before the Commission as I have heretofore indicated, -isn't that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. I have testified before--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You testified previously that when you first met Lee -Oswald in April 1963, that you discussed to some extent Gen. Edwin A. -Walker? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think we did discuss him in passing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you in any way that he had -been involved in the attempt on General Walker's life? - -Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember at all--nothing whatsoever. I think the -only thing he did--the only thing that I can remember now, was that he -seemed to have a smile in regard to that person. It was inscrutable--I -didn't know what he was smiling about--I just thought perhaps it -was--the guy assumed it was rapport for a person who was an extreme -proponent of a certain kind of patriotism or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker was? - -Mr. PAINE. General Walker was--yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you first met Oswald, as I recall, on April 2, -I believe it was, of 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. You have been keeping up with this--I haven't been thinking -about Oswald for a year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection as to the date at this -point? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you did meet Oswald sometime in April, -for the first time; do you recall whether it was before or after that -Walker had been attacked? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't recall now; and as I remember--back in the fall--I -wasn't aware then whether it was before or after. It isn't just a lapse -of memory now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with Oswald the fact that -someone had shot at General Walker? - -Mr. PAINE. No--I don't. That would have led me to think it was prior to -his being shot at. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to this specific date. Now, my question -means to comprehend any time--do you remember discussing at any time -with Oswald the fact that General Walker had been attacked? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. I didn't see him--I saw him that one evening, -you see, and then I didn't see him for a space of some time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him after that one time in April until -after he had returned from New Orleans? - -Mr. PAINE. I guess that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, that would have been in October 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On June 11, 1964, Marina Oswald testified before the -Commission at which time the following colloquy occurred, as indicated -on page 7368 of the Commission's transcript: - - Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald, you say, or you said a few minutes - ago, that Mr. Paine knew or knows more about your husband's - attitude about the United States than you do. Why did you say - that? - - Mrs. OSWALD. Because my husband's favorite topic of discussion - was politics and whoever he was with, he talked to them - politics and Mr. Paine was with him a fair amount and I am not - sure they talked about politics. - -Apparently it should have been "I am quite sure they talked about -politics." But, at any rate, the transcript does read, "I am not sure -they talked about politics." - - They went to meetings of some kind together. I don't know what - kind of meetings. - - Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know where the meetings were? - - Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas. After they came back from some meeting, - my husband said to me something about Walker being at this - meeting. - -Do you remember going at any meeting with Lee Oswald at which Mr. -Walker was present? - -Mr. PAINE. No--the only meeting I went to was the ACLU meeting, that I -recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall going to any meeting yourself in October -1963, with or without Oswald, at which General Walker was present? - -Mr. PAINE. General Walker was present at the--Oswald mentioned the -U.N.-U.S. Day meeting held by the rightists, which occurred a day or -two or two nights before the ACLU meeting. He had been to that by -himself. I had gone that same evening to a John Birch meeting. We were -not together, but they were two things that occurred simultaneously, -and that's where Lee, by his report at the ACLU meeting said he was and -Walker was there. Maybe that's what Marina had in mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, don't have any recollection of your -ever being at a meeting when he was there? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen General Walker that I can recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen Walker? - -Mr. PAINE. Unless he was--in a year previous to that I had been to the -Indignation Committee meeting--no--that is the answer to your previous -question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do--to the best of your recollection, you don't ever -remember seeing General Walker present? - -Mr. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or having been at a meeting at which you subsequently -learned that he was present, although you didn't see him? - -Mr. PAINE. That's right--I can't remember about the previous year, but -I don't think that has relevancy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, since the time you met Oswald--you were at no -meetings at which General Walker was present, to your knowledge? - -Mr. PAINE. That's true. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina Oswald goes on to testify and I will recapitulate -part of it, "After they came back from some meeting, my husband said -to me something about Walker being at this meeting and he said, 'Paine -knows that I shot him.'" - -Do you have any reason to believe that--the first question, of course, -is and I have already asked you that and you testified you did not know -Oswald shot Walker prior to the assassination of President Kennedy; is -that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you have any reason to believe that Oswald might -have thought that you knew that he, Oswald, had shot at General Walker? - -Mr. PAINE. I can't see how he would have thought I knew that. I just -don't see--he might have said something that revealed that and I didn't -catch his meaning, so it never sunk in to me at all, that is, to assume -that he wasn't lying and that is the only way I can explain it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you think that this testimony that Marina has -given is either the result of a misapprehension, or a lie on Oswald's -part or on Marina's part? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any doubt about that whatsoever? - -Mr. PAINE. I am perfectly certain that I didn't know he shot at Walker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina herself goes on to say: - - I don't know whether this was the truth or not, I don't know - whether it was true or not, but this is what they told me. - -And I presume she means that's what Lee had told her. - -Mr. PAINE. Now, wait--this is--it would be well to check for that -"they"--this is testimony in June, you said, and that "they" could -possibly be Martin and Thorne. I don't know much about Martin and -Thorne either, but I had the impression that they were telling her -stories. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, this is what the translator said Marina -had said. Marina is going to be here tomorrow and I will ask her about -this then and see if she can clarify the record, but the point we want -to bring out now at this time is that your testimony is quite clear -that you did not know before the assassination that Oswald had shot at -General Walker? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You testified before that Oswald had shown you one of -those newspapers of his one day and said you could tell what they -wanted you to do by doing some reading between the lines; is that -correct? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that he was specifically referring -to a copy of The Worker that he showed you at that time? - -Mr. PAINE. It was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald reading The Militant? - -Mr. PAINE. I do not now remember which are the things that I have come -to realize later and which I knew at the time. I was not particularly -aware of The Militant, as I recall. I really have to remember what my -feelings were back in the fall when I was questioned on the matter and -that, as I recall, the name and quality or the name and nature of The -Militant wasn't really very familiar to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about the -U.S. policies toward Cuba? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't think we did discuss that except in the -very brief talk in the car when he was reciting someone else's -approval--apparent approval of Castro and citing that he was a -Communist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I remember you testified about that before--that it was -on the way back home after an ACLU meeting. - -Mr. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him, or thought if that was what he had -to go on to identify anyone as a Communist, that he apparently was -reaching quite far? - -Mr. PAINE. I thought so, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that in the fall of 1963 there was a -climate of what might be called, and what was in fact called, detente -between the United States and the Soviet Union that apparently led -people in some quarters to believe that the Soviet Union would withdraw -its support from the Castro regime or at least modify its attitude? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about that? - -Mr. PAINE. No, we did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate in any way that he was aware of -such a thing? - -Mr. PAINE. We very seldom spoke about it. Most of our discussions -were to the more specific elements, since there was such a wide area -of disagreement it didn't seem best to talk about smaller points, so -we didn't talk about Soviet-American relations as I recall it in that -regard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which depicts the same individual -as is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 237 and ask you to examine it -and tell me if you recognize the individual? - -Mr. PAINE. I remember the same face on a picture that I saw earlier, -but I had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person, but -he could work at Bell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In our discussions in Washington, we had some -conversations about what you thought Oswald's possible motive might -have been for the assassination--I don't think you have really ever set -them forth for us on the record, and if you care to give us your views -on that, I would appreciate having them. - -Mr. PAINE. I was more eager to speak about it then--I was thinking -about it then. Since that time I haven't thought about it at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you reconstruct the thoughts that you had at the time -you were in Washington? - -Mr. PAINE. I think my thoughts then were brief and they certainly are -now. I thought it was a very spur of the moment idea that came into his -head when he realized that he would have the opportunity with sort of a -duck blind there, an opportunity to change the course of history, even -though he couldn't predict from that action what course history would -take, that in my opinion would not have deterred him from doing it. I -thought that he was of the mind that something small or evolutionary -changes were never going to be of any effect. It had to be, though he -never revealed to me what kind of actions or policies he would have -advocated or did advocate or did want to see--I had frequently had the -impression that it was--it had to be of a rather drastic nature, where -kindness or good feelings should not stand in the way of those actions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his notion of how society -ought to be structured? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes--he did discuss them but not in a way---did he ever -describe anything that could be real. It was more a way that society -should not be structured, that he talked about. Now, I shouldn't really -say that--it was a negative description of how society should not be, -and I never did get a description of what he would like or what one of -a more positive nature would be like. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling that whatever it was, if in fact he -had a notion about it, would have required a drastic and sudden change? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't know about the suddenness but he assumed that -the society was all tied together, the church and the power structure -and our education was all the same vile system and therefore there -would have to be an overthrow of the whole thing. Just how he was going -to overthrow it or what he was going to overthrow toward--it was not -clear to me, especially, because it was also apparent that he didn't -particularly admire Russia, so I didn't--I never did get it clear in my -mind what program he was going to inaugurate with his new world. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you he had written about this subject? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never read any of the things he wrote? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know he had written about anything? - -Mr. PAINE. No; if I had thought he had written about something, I would -certainly have been eager to have read it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opinion that this man was -psychologically disturbed, suffering from personality disturbances and -neurosis or psychosis--you pick it. - -Mr. PAINE. No; truthfully, I should say that did not appear to be a -good description. It seemed simpler and more to the point to say he -was extremely bitter and couldn't believe there was much good will in -people. There was mostly evil, conniving, or else stupidity--was the -description--that was his opinion or would be his description of most -people. That's my description, and the best description I can give -of him--to call him other psychological names--names of paranoia or -paranoid or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What made you pick that particular name? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, that kind of suspicion of people--expecting them to be -consciously perpetrating evil or ill toward him or toward the oppressed -people--workers--is perhaps a trait of paranoia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he exhibited this trait? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did, but it didn't seem to be uncontrollable. He -didn't generally take it--I would say he was paranoid if he always -took it personally, but he always seemed to transfer it to, or put -himself in the class of people who were oppressed, so that's the -distinction why I wouldn't call him sick or wouldn't have then called -him sick--before the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Because he seemed to describe this feeling of his in -institutional terms? - -Mr. PAINE. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And in terms of the social structure and the impact the -world had on classes and groups of people? - -Mr. PAINE. He was in the exploited class. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there was no doubt about that--I mean, as far as his -own mind was concerned--that's what he thought? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So, that he would describe these terrible misfortunes -that were being perpetrated on a class of people, but he would make it -clear that he did regard himself as being included in that class of -people. - -Mr. PAINE. That's correct. Now, I think he was a little--I can't -remember now where I got the impression that he was allergic to the -FBI, which is another case of him mentioning being sensitive to a -person--a sense of persecution, but the only thing that I do remember -that he did mention that surprised me a little bit was his sense of -personal exploitation by his employer at the photoengraving company. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And when you say you cannot remember where you got the -idea that he was allergic to the FBI, you mean you don't remember -whether you were aware of that before the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. That's correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of it before the assassination or can't -you remember? - -Mr. PAINE. I think I learned that from Ruth's statement of things that -he had said and I don't remember whether that was before or after. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For instance, if you were told that he in fact did have -quite an allergy to the FBI, whether you were aware of it or not at -that time, I suppose that that would provide an example of one or -two things--either an accurate description of what was going on or a -slightly exaggerated or greatly exaggerated notion of what was going on -and to that extent a manifestation of this feeling of persecution, as -he put it. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; it was greatly exaggerated--it had, of course, some -grounds, so you wouldn't be too inclined to call it paranoia and -the fact that he also perhaps wanted to continue doing the things -that would have to have the legitimate fear of the surveillance by -the FBI because he would want to be attempting to do something that -wasn't legal or proper. In other words, that would agitate him with -grounds--for other reasons than paranoia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. One of the witnesses who knew him in the Marine Corps -testified that he thought that Oswald had a persecution complex which -he strove to maintain--had you ever thought of it in that way? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, he was certainly--I wanted to give him some sense of -letting him participate in some sense of being effective to change the -world and to let him be a little more generous in his thinking toward -his enemies--his employers by suggesting that they weren't so fully -in control of the social situation as he made out, and he certainly -resisted all efforts on my part to think in a more generous and active -way toward people toward whom he felt bitter. In other words, he had -no inclination or tendency to try to get out of that mood--I don't -remember now any illogical way he would have maintained that attitude. - -I suppose, though, he just had to fight so hard, or fighting is about -the only way he would or could get it out. He perhaps never had any -experience of relieving the feeling of hate or bitterness through being -kind to someone, so you just wouldn't imagine he would think that that -was just pious or just talking to suggest that that was a way out of -that feeling. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he had a considerable -degree of hostility toward the society in general, toward our -particular society? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; he had unreasonable and unrealistic and pervasive -feelings. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In that it affected his attitude toward almost everything? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his personal relations with -his wife? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he did not--he never spoke of girls at all. I thought he -was very proper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, this is the way I supposed he was. I knew that he -didn't smoke or drink and it seemed inconsistent with a libertine -attitude toward women or even a sensual enjoyment of women would be a -form of life that would be contradictory to his ethics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no idea that he had been engaged in the Fair Play -for Cuba activities while he was in New Orleans? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Ruth about Oswald's employment -situation in New Orleans? - -Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall--no. I think I asked her what kind of -a job he had found, and that was the extent of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you he had found? - -Mr. PAINE. She said he had found the same kind of work he left -here--the engraving business--or something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Ruth ever mentioning that Oswald had said -that he had gotten fired from his job in New Orleans because of his -activities in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember her mentioning that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very -much for coming. - -Mr. PAINE. All right. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MAJ. GEN. EDWIN A. WALKER AND GEN. CLYDE J. WATTS - -The testimony of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker was taken at 4:15 p.m., on -July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office -Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. -Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that General Walker is being -represented by Clyde J. Watts of Oklahoma City. - -Would you rise, general, and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -General WALKER. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an -attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination -of President John F. Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your -testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the -Commission by President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Pursuant to the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled -to be represented by counsel. As the record now indicates, you are -represented by counsel, General Watts. I understand that you are -appearing voluntarily before the Commission in response to its request -to give testimony touching upon certain matters relating to Lee Harvey -Oswald and to the assassination of President Kennedy. Is that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have the record show that prior to the -commencement of this deposition, a discussion between General Watts -and General Walker and myself was had in which we reached an agreement -under which a copy of the transcript of the testimony which will be -taken here today will be made available here at the office of the U.S. -attorney for examination by General Walker and by his counsel. They -will be given an opportunity to make whatever changes in the testimony -may be necessary, so that the transcript reflects accurately what -happened here today. - -We also agreed and confirmed in a telephone conversation with Mr. -Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission, that as soon as a -copy can reasonably be made available, within 2 or 3 days after this -transcript has been signed by General Walker and approved by me, a -copy of the transcript will be made available to General Walker at his -expense. It may be purchased from the court reporter here in Dallas. We -will make whatever arrangements may seem proper at that time to give -the general a corrected copy. Would you state your full name for the -record, please? - -General WALKER. Edwin A. Walker. A stands for Anderson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -General WALKER. 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived there? - -General WALKER. I believe since December of 1961 or January of 1962. I -am not sure of the month I moved in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we have to indicate a great deal of your -background for the record, since I think we all know who you are, but -you are a retired major general, are you not? - -General WALKER. No. I am former major general, now resigned from the -U.S. Army. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You resigned from the Army. Where were you originally -born and raised, general? - -General WALKER. At Center Point, Tex. I was born in 1909, November 10. -Center Point is Kerr County. It is C-e-n-t-e-r P-o-i-n-t, Kerr County, -Tex. That is 60 miles west of San Antonio. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Since your resignation from the Army and your taking up -residence in Dallas, you have been active, have you not, in various -political endeavors here in Dallas and throughout the United States? - -General WALKER. Patriotic and political endeavors. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that on the evening of April 10, -1963, some person fired a shot at you while you were in your home on -Turtle Creek Boulevard; is that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that -event, as you can now recall them? - -General WALKER. I was sitting behind my desk. It was right at 9 -o'clock, and most of the lights were on in the house and the shades -were up. I was sitting down behind a desk facing out from a corner, -with my head over a pencil and paper working on my income tax when I -heard a blast and a crack right over my head. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do then? - -General WALKER. I thought--we had been fooling with the screens on the -house and I thought that possibly somebody had thrown a firecracker, -that it exploded right over my head through the window right behind me. -Since there is a church back there, often there are children playing -back there. Then I looked around and saw that the screen was not out, -but was in the window, and this couldn't possibly happen, so I got up -and walked around the desk and looked back where I was sitting and I -saw a hole in the wall which would have been to my left while I was -sitting to my right as I looked back, and the desk was catercornered -in the corner up against this wall. I noticed there was a hole in the -wall, so I went upstairs and got a pistol and came back down and went -out the back door, taking a look to see what might have happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything outside that you could relate to -this attack on you? - -General WALKER. No, sir; I couldn't. As I crossed a window coming -downstairs in front, I saw a car at the bottom of the church alley just -making a turn onto Turtle Creek. The car was unidentifiable. I could -see the two back lights, and you have to look through trees there, and -I could see it moving out. This car would have been about at the right -time for anybody that was making a getaway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now as I understand it, there is an alley that runs -directly at the rear of your house; is that correct? - -General WALKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does that alley run directly into Turtle Creek Boulevard, -or does it join with another alley? - -General WALKER. No, sir; it joins with another alley, and it joins with -the street called Avondale. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that to get---- - -General WALKER. At one end is Avondale, which runs into Turtle Creek -going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot -of the church. As you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn -directly right, you go down the church alley going into Turtle Creek, -and that is where the car was going down that I referred to, and it was -just making the turn out of the church alley. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs into Turtle Creek? - -General WALKER. No; directly from the church alley into the Turtle -Creek main boulevard. Now, there is another alley right at the entrance -of my alley to the church parking lot, which runs straight west -practically to Oak Lawn. Hardly anybody knows it is there, because you -have to ease down it with an automobile, it is so narrow. And as I -know, only garbage trucks use it. I have been up and down it once or -twice only. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back -door of your house? - -General WALKER. I went out the back door. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went into the alley? - -General WALKER. I went about halfway out to the alley. - -Mr. LIEBELER. From that point you could observe this car that was just -turning? - -General WALKER. No, sir. I observed that--it was already gone--I -observed that from the window upstairs as I came down with the pistol. -I could see out the south window, front and left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone -from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point -entering Turtle Creek Boulevard? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see which direction it turned? - -General WALKER. Left, going north. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to make any kind of identification of the -automobile at all? - -General WALKER. None at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to see how many people were in it? - -General WALKER. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem to be leaving in a hurry, or was it just -debarking? - -General WALKER. There was no way to tell, because from the upstair's -windows you were looking through trees at the car and I probably -wouldn't have seen it unless I had seen the two taillights of it. It -only has to go a few feet and it is beyond the bank where you can -hardly see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of a photograph -that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1008, and ask you if you -can identify that picture, or tell us what is portrayed in it. - -General WALKER. Well, it looks like an old wornout picture of the -wall beside my desk and the shothole as it appeared. It is not really -a picture. They used, evidently had plastered this silver foil-type -peculiar stuff on the wall previously and it is still there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But this does show the hole in the wall over your desk -that was made by the bullet that struck the wall; is that correct? - -General WALKER. As far as I can identify it, that is what it looks -like. I could take the picture and probably match it up with those -flowers. It is a flower arrangement on this silver foil on the wall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like your wallpaper, doesn't it? - -General WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a picture that has been marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 1007, and ask you if you can recognize what is -shown in that picture. - -General WATTS. Can we go off the record a minute? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is it, generally? - -General WALKER. It is an outside picture taken looking into the house, -taken from the west. The camera pointed east and took the house, and it -shows the shot and the broken glass in the window. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The window of your home? - -General WALKER. The window of my home at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window through which the shot was fired at -you on April 10, 1963? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible to see your desk? - -General WALKER. Yes; you can see the chair. Let's go off the record a -minute. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's stay on the record. It is all right. - -General WALKER. All right, what I had mixed up, I never knew anybody -got a picture of me pointing at anything, and that looks like my hand. -I didn't know this photographer was outside at the time. I was thinking -the picture was taken from the inside, but I see it perfectly now and -it is from the outside. This looks like there is a table here, from -this window, and in the corner running that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just inside the window? - -General WALKER. Just inside the window. Then there is a space between -that and the desk. Then the desk is here at an angle across this -corner, and that looks like the chair. No; I am not sure. I did have -a chair in between me and the table, which may be that chair. It is -possible that you are not seeing the desk chair. There are two windows -in this wall, but those are too close to be the windows. That is one -of those panels, I suspect, like the flower panel. The window is still -further back here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it is not possible to see your desk from that picture? - -General WALKER. That picture is taken at this angle, see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you can't really see your desk? - -General WALKER. I would say my desk is back in that corner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it would be directly, if you stood at the window and -looked straight through the window, you would be able to see your desk -across the room? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was your desk directly across the room from the window, -or was it sitting catercornered? - -General WALKER. It was sitting catercornered in the corner on the -opposite side of the room. I was facing out over the desk toward the -center of the room. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When the shot was fired? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that you were almost facing the window at the time the -shot was fired; is that correct? Looking sideways? - -General WALKER. No; I was looking to the center of the room. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sideways to the window? I am trying to drive at what kind -of shot the man had at you. Was he shooting at you from the side, from -the back, or from the front? I think it would be from the side. - -General WALKER. More from the side than the front. Definitely from the -side but a little at an angle, because I was facing the center of the -room. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been -marked Commission Exhibit No. 1006, and ask you if this is not also a -picture of the window through which the shot was fired showing where -the shot had apparently hit the sash at one point? - -General WALKER. That looks like the window and where the shot was fired -through the window into the room. It certainly must be the same shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It purports to be a photograph that was turned over to -the Commission by the police department and it purports to be a picture -of that window. - -General WALKER. That is the same shot then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The bullet apparently actually hit a portion of the -window frame before it went through. Does that accord with your -recollection? - -General WALKER. The bullet went through the screen frame. Then it went -through a portion of the window frame, and a portion of the glass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked -Commission Exhibit No. 1009, and ask you if this is not in fact a -picture of the next room. - -General WALKER. To closer identify that further, the screen frame -has a crosspiece in the center also, and the bullet went through the -crosspiece in the screen and then hit both the window frame and the -glass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 1009 is a picture of the room next -to the one in which you were sitting, and shows some literature that -was stored and the place where the bullet came out. - -General WALKER. That identifies the next room where the bullet went -through the wall by my desk and came out in the next room. The bullet -was picked up lying on a piece of the literature there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a photograph which I am marking as -Walker Exhibit No. 1, and which I will initial for the purpose of -identification, and ask you to do the same so that we have no confusion -as to the identification of that picture. - -(General Walker initials.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now are you able to tell from looking at that picture -what it shows? - -General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture. It is the backyard -of my house at 4011 Turtle Creek. It is a view from a position taken -near the west fence line, taken of the rear of my house, camera pointed -east. It shows the fence running down on the left side between my -rented property, and the church property. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see the room in which you were sitting when this -shot was fired at you in that picture. I call your attention to where -the police officer is standing. There is a police officer standing over -there in front of a window, isn't there? - -General WALKER. I can see the corner of the house. The window is right -in here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that where the policeman is -standing in this Walker Exhibit No. 1, is part of the entrance to the -house, but that is not the room that you were sitting in at the time -the shot was fired at you? You were sitting in a room that is not even -visible in this picture, because it is behind some bushes and trees -that appear to the left foreground of the picture; is that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct. The policeman is to the left--to the -right. His position is to the right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you face the picture? - -General WALKER. Of the room I was sitting in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You can't actually see the window through which the shot -came in that picture? - -General WALKER. Not in this picture, you can't see the window. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department, of course, sent officers -out to investigate this after the shot was fired at you, did they not? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You got out in the backyard and reviewed the -possibilities, to try and figure out what happened with them at that -time, and specifically I wonder---- - -General WALKER. Seems to me I talked to them in the room first and -showed them around. I believe I did. I can't recall whether they asked -me out or not. There wasn't much to tell them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to determine the spot from which it -appeared the shot had been fired? - -General WALKER. We lined up the shot, the police did, and I noticed -they worked this whole area back here to the fence, and even went out -into the alley to find the lattice fence that sits right here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the area immediately behind the picture? - -General WALKER. Just behind the camera that took this picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Walker Exhibit No. 1. Were you able to determine to -your satisfaction the place from which the shot was fired? - -General WALKER. I was convinced there wasn't any doubt the shot was -fired about where this cameraman was standing, or a little bit behind -him and outside the lattice fence, probably firing through the fence -which had spaces in it, squares of about 4 to 6 inches. - -Certainly the lineup of the holes in the two, in the window and in the -wall, gives the direction. The distance would be questionable to this -point, based on the information I have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you a photograph that I have marked Walker Exhibit -No. 2, and I ask you to initial it on the back near my initials there. - -(General Walker initials.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now that in fact is a photograph, is it not, of the fence -to which you have just referred? - -General WALKER. Yes; it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that the shot was probably from the other -side of that fence, behind the fence as we face it, and very likely -the rifle was rested on one of the slats and fired through it, is that -correct? - -I suggested that this picture was taken from inside the yard. General -Watts pointed out it was very likely taken looking from the alley, so -if this picture had been taken at the time the man was shooting, he -would be in that picture very likely with his back toward the camera -with the rifle through the fence? - -General WALKER. If he fired through the fence, he would very likely -have been right in this picture, that is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, when I look at Walker Exhibit No. 1, since -you have indicated you thought that the shot was fired somewhere -about where the camera was located when this picture was taken, or -slightly behind it on the other side of the fence, I have considerable -difficulty in that I can't see the window through which the shot went. -How could the shot have been fired from there? - -General WALKER. You can sit in the house and turn off your lights and -look right out through the fence and all the areas in the fence. It is -just a question of lighting. The difficulty you are having here is a -question of lighting of the picture, but if you are looking from the -inside of the house, you see that fence in many places, all places. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that this picture which was obviously taken at night -with a flash attachment does not give a true picture of the situation? - -General WALKER. Not at all, because you can't see the house, and that -is why the picture with the policeman in it is so hard to identify. -Windows don't show there. There is a whole glassed-in porch to the -left of the policeman, as you look at this picture. There is a 5 by 6 -glassed window there with a back porch that sticks out a little bit -that doesn't show. - -Then there is a window beside that porch in the room I was sitting in. - -Well, delete that. I don't think the cooler was in the window at that -time, but from that window, there is a space of 6 or 8 feet. Then you -come to the window that was fired through, and then there is 2 or 3 -feet to the corner of the house. - -Then referring back to the picture we referred to, the policeman was -in, you see the dark alley going down beside the house between the -house and the fence, which is the north side, in general, of the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That picture, being Walker Exhibit No. 1. - -General WALKER. But I don't see how you could take a picture and see -less of the house, and it is definitely because of the lighting in the -picture and everything dark. The whole house is dark under the light, -the way that picture was taken, so that you see very little of the -house except the policeman, what he has of the light coming out behind -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Now did you make any sudden movement on or about -the time that shot was fired? - -General WALKER. None that I was aware of; no. Just moving with a pencil -and thoroughly engrossed in my income tax. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from where you were sitting to the fence -where we think the shot was fired from? How many feet? - -General WALKER. I would say 100 feet. I would say between 100 and 120 -feet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever say in words or substance after this shot -was fired at you that the guy must have been a lousy shot? That sounds -like something you might say, doesn't it? - -General WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that? - -General WALKER. But I will tell you what I did think. I think I said -that, right. The police asked me to sit down. You want me to tell you? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -General WALKER. The police asked me to sit down when I got there and -they went through the motions of lining up the shot from inside and -outside. - -And one policeman said, "He couldn't have missed you." And one said, a -lieutenant I believe it was, said, "It was an attempted assassination." - -And I said, "What makes you call it that?" And he said, "Because he -definitely was out to get you." - -And I said, "Your remark sounds like a natural remark." But as I later -was analyzing the thing, he couldn't see either with a scope or without -a scope. He couldn't see from his position any of the lattice work -either in the windows or in the screens because of the light. It would -have looked like one big lighted area, and he could have been a very -good shot and just by chance he hit the woodwork. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which he did in fact? - -General WALKER. Which he did, and there was enough deflection in it to -miss me, except for slivers of the bullet, the casing of the bullet -that went into my arm laying on the desk--slivers of the shell jacket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 2 -and ask you if you recognize the scene in that picture? - -General WALKER. Yes; I identify this picture looking approximately -south down the alley, taken from about the entrance of where the -alley enters the church, a few steps short of where the alley enters -the church parking area. It is facing approximately south. Shows the -back entrance to my back yard and the tree and my garbage can and the -lattice fence on the west. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs down there is the alley that runs -directly behind your house, isn't that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct. And the direction we are looking is -the direction in which it connects and joins Avondale Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that object in the background that looks -like a building maybe under construction? - -General WALKER. That is the bigger apartment house down south of me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. -1003, that is a copy of Exhibit No. 1003, and ask you if that larger -apartment building shown in the right background of that picture is not -in fact the same building that is shown as being under construction in -Commission Exhibit No. 2? - -General WALKER. As well as I can identify it, it looks like the same -building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Looking further at Exhibit No. 1003, there is a house -that is circled and indicated by the letter "A." That is, in fact, your -house, is it not? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the street marked "E" is Turtle Creek Boulevard? - -General WALKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, the whole picture is an aerial view of the -general vicinity of your house and the apartment building, is it not? - -General WALKER. That is correct. And "H" would be Avondale. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right. And "G" is Irving Street? - -General WALKER. That I don't know. Probably is. The church alley shows -up here going into Turtle Creek. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Point that out to me, would you please? - -General WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is a little street that runs right between your house -and the big building immediately next to your house just outside the -circle? - -General WALKER. Which is the Mormon Church. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the church, is that correct? - -General WALKER. And the car was right here I referred to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Just turning from the church alley? - -General WALKER. Just turning here, and turning this direction. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Turning left up Turtle Creek? - -General WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a document, a picture which is a copy of -Commission Exhibit No. 5 and ask you if you recognize the scene -portrayed in that picture? - -General WALKER. I recognize my house in this picture. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anything else? Specifically, I draw your -attention to the automobile that is shown in there. - -General WALKER. I do not recognize the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Klihr? - -General WALKER. Would you spell it again? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I will spell it right in just a minute. K-l-i-h-r. 2046 -Rosebud Street, Irving, Tex. Do you know that man? - -General WALKER. Not that spelling. I know a Charles Clyr. As I know the -spelling, it is C-l-y-r. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live out in Irving? - -General WALKER. I think he does. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize his address? - -General WALKER. I wouldn't recognize his address. I don't recognize -that address. That could or couldn't be it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about that car, do you recognize that as his car? - -General WALKER. I don't recognize that car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This gentleman that we may be talking about, we may be -talking about the same man, is a volunteer worker for you from time to -time? - -General WALKER. If it is the one I am referring to, he is in and out -quite often, right. He and his wife have helped me quite a bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to identify that car as being his? - -General WALKER. No; I am not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does that car appear to be a 1957 Chevrolet? Or aren't -you able to tell by looking? - -General WALKER. I am not able to tell. I am not very good on cars. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicate that to the very far left of this -photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 5, through these bushes there is a -window, and that is the window through which the shot was fired, is -that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window immediately left of the gasmeter there -as you look at the picture? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt that that is the back of your -house? - -General WALKER. None at all. That is the back of the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen that picture before, have you? - -General WALKER. No; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of Commission -Exhibit No. 3. The photograph that I refer to is set forth in this -copy, and I refer specifically to the one denominated P-1 and ask you -if you recognize the scene portrayed therein. - -General WALKER. Yes; I recognize that as the back of my house, a -portion of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have another photograph I have marked Walker Exhibit -No. 3, and I ask you to initial that, if you would, for the purpose of -identification. - -General WALKER (initials). Can I look at it? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, please. That is a picture of the back of your house -too, isn't it? - -General WALKER. Yes; it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you another picture which is Walker Exhibit -No. 4, and I ask you to initial that, and ask you if that isn't in fact -a picture of the alley behind your house. - -General WALKER (initials). Yes; that is a picture of the alley looking -south toward the same apartment building we referred to before, down -to where the alley connects with Avondale showing the back fence and -the entrance into my backyard. I believe the picture is taken at a -different date from the other one we referred to, because the fence has -been changed behind the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That apartment is completed in the picture? - -General WALKER. That's right. There was work on the fence in the other -house and, also, the apartment building is in further advanced stage of -construction. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, it looks to be completed in Walker Exhibit No. -4, does it not, the apartment building? - -General WALKER. Yes; it does. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a series of photographs which are copies -of Commission Exhibits Nos. 998, 999, 1000, 1002, and 1004, and ask you -if each and every one is not, in fact, an aerial view of the general -vicinity of your home and surrounding area, and if the identification -of landmarks in those pictures, insofar as you can tell, is correct. - -General WALKER. 998 is identification of my home. 1000 would certainly -include the area of my home. It is hard to identify the exact house -marked "A". - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that big old apartment building is in there in 1000? - -General WALKER. That is correct. So it is bound to include the area of -my home; 1002 is the area of my home, and it indicates my house; 1004 -certainly includes the area of my home, and it would be very difficult -without further study to definitely identify that as my home. They all -include the area of my home. My home definitely is in those pictures. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't see any obvious mistakes, at least, as far as -the identification and the symbols on the pictures are concerned? - -General WALKER. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the record on this Klihr, it does appear, -in fact, to be K-l-i-h-r. - -General WALKER. Why don't we ring the house and establish that that is -correct. LA 1-4415. - -(General Watts called on phone and confirmed it was K-l-i-h-r.) - -General WALKER. What is it? - -General WATTS. K-l-i-h-r. - -General WALKER. All right; that is the original spelling you had? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -General WALKER. OK; that is correct. It is Charles Klihr. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Robert Surrey? - -General WALKER. Yes, I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has Mr. Surrey discussed with you the fact that on June -3, 1964, he was interviewed by an agent of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation and shown a picture, or a copy of a picture similar to -Commission Exhibit No. 5, which showed this automobile behind your -house with the license plate obliterated on it? Did he tell you he had -been asked about that? - -General WALKER. He told me about a picture being shown to him of the -back side of my house, and I believe he referred to it showing some -automobile or automobiles being behind the house, but I don't remember -any reference to that car or the hole in it. There wasn't any reference -to that car, if that is a hole in the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that Commission Exhibit No. 5 that we -have here is a copy of an original photograph, which in fact had a hole -torn in there right where the black part is on the car. The original -picture itself has a hole right through there. - -General WALKER. Then it is not a hole in the car? - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; it is a hole in the original photograph, of which -this thing I show you now is a copy. - -General WALKER. Oh, I see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I thought exactly what you thought the first time I -looked at it; that that was a hole in the car. It is not. It is a hole -in the picture. - -General WALKER. He referred to being shown photographs with the back of -the premises and the car or something back there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember him telling you that he was able -to identify this as Charles Klihr's car? - -General WALKER. No; I don't remember that he identified the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that Mr. Surrey saw two men in the -vicinity of your house shortly before April 10, 1963, acting in a -manner that he regarded as suspicious. Did he report that to you at or -about that time? - -General WALKER. He has reported that to me, and I don't remember the -date on which he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it prior to the time that the shot was fired at you? - -General WALKER. I can't recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the fact, if it is a fact, -that Surrey had seen two men out there in an automobile that didn't -have any license plate on it? - -General WALKER. Yes; I do. I knew. He told me that he had come toward -my house and noticed a car, as I remember, parked on Avondale, and he -went on by or backed up or something and got out and came behind the -car and saw two men moving around in the area somewhere in the alley in -the back part of my house. Then he followed that car. They went down to -the center of town, and he lost them. I would suspect that he told me -that the next morning, if not that night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not you reported that to the -police? - -General WALKER. Yes; that was called in to the police. As I recall, -that was. I believe there is a report at the house that it was called -in to the police. As I recall, it was, and I told them what we knew -about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you reflect on that event, do you recall it was called -in to the police prior to the time the shot was fired? - -General WALKER. As I reflect, it must have been called in either that -night or the next morning. I don't recall the exact time, but the -police record will show it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the call yourself, or did someone else do -that, if you remember? - -General WALKER. As I recall, I made it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of response you got from the -Dallas Police Department? - -General WALKER. Seemed normal. Wasn't upset about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, subsequent to April 10, 1963, of course, the Dallas -Police Department conducted an investigation of the attack on you; is -that not right? - -General WALKER. Will you repeat that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department investigated this attack on -you that occurred on April 10, 1963? They sent men out there and talked -to you and took some pictures? - -General WALKER. Oh, subsequent to it; yes. Subsequent, right; they did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they discuss with you any possible suspects that they -might have come up with, any leads they had on it as to who might have -been involved? - -General WALKER. I don't recall that they did. They may have, and I may -have told them who had been in and about around the house, or who had -worked for me. I don't recall this definitely, but the records will -probably show. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records like that here? - -General WALKER. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald come up in connection with -this investigation in any way at that time? - -General WALKER. No; it didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know William Duff? - -General WALKER. I know who William Duff is under that name; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he lived in your house for a while and worked -for you as a batman? - -General WALKER. Yes; that is what he calls himself; right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make the acquaintance of Mr. Duff? - -General WALKER. He walked in the house late one evening and said he was -out of a job and out of a place to sleep, and I put him up and put him -to work. The date I would have to get for you; I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was it sometime prior to April 10, 1963, in any -event? - -General WALKER. Yes; it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Duff living in your house at the time of the attack -on you? - -General WALKER. No; he wasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About how long had he been gone; can you remember? - -General WALKER. As general figures, I would say he worked about 3 -months for me, and he had been gone a month or two. I would have to -verify these. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the fact is that you suspected, possibly, that Duff -might have been involved in this attack on your life, didn't you? - -General WALKER. I suspected that he might be involved. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you conducted an investigation of that possibility, -did you not? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with that investigation, two detectives -from General Watts' office, one, Kester, and one, Roberts, came down to -Dallas and engaged in an investigation, did they not? - -General WALKER. They did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us about that, please? - -General WALKER. They were in and out, as I remember, in the -investigation, and in contact with my house from time to time during -it, and even drove Duff around in a car, finally, and he explained how -he would have shot at me if he had intended to, or if he had any such -intentions. - -General WATTS. I got a call--I don't remember the exact date--but I do -have a record of it. I got a call from Mrs. Kenecht in General Walker's -office to the effect that an anonymous telephone call came in from some -lady who advised Mrs. Kenecht that this boy Duff had been going with -the lady's daughter and had bragged to the daughter that he had been in -on the shooting at General Walker. - -So I sent these two investigators whose names were just mentioned, -connected with our office. They are ex-detectives or policemen from the -Oklahoma City Police Department and do freelance investigating. I sent -them down here with a tape recorder to verify as much as they could -from Duff, because we were very apprehensive that he might take another -shot at Walker. - -We couldn't get Duff to admit that he actually fired the shot, but he -professed to readiness to stage another attempt if someone would raise -$5,000. It is my recollection that the tape recording was turned over -to the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask: Were you, General Walker, generally familiar -with the events at the time, and reports were made to you about the -progress? - -General WALKER. I was familiar with the progress of the investigation -and got a final copy of it. I thought it solved nothing, but Duff was -telling his usual lies. - -Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts' description of these events is accurate, -to the best of your knowledge; is that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct, except that I do not agree with -General Watts' statement that Duff had implicated himself in the attack -on me by statements to the daughter of this woman who called Mrs. -Kenecht. My information is only to the effect that the girl's mother -was upset about her daughter's friendship with Duff. As far as I know, -she never said that Duff admitted being involved in the attack on me -that occurred on April 10, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts, you indicated you had some additional -information on Mr. Duff. - -General WATTS. Yes; one Friday evening--I could get the exact date--I -was dictating in my bedroom at home, and I looked up and there stood -Duff whom I hadn't seen since he had worked at General Walker's, but -whom we had investigated, and he told me a rather weird story. - -He had gone to the Army and was stationed at Fort Sill, and immediately -after the assassination he was interrogated by personnel from the -Justice Department and was charged with fraudulent enlistment, -according to him. He had failed to enter on his enlistment papers that -he had worked for General Walker, and when it became known that he had -worked for General Walker, he was charged with fraudulent enlistment -along in December 1963, and his pay cut off. - -He professed to me that he had been living at Fort Sill, although not -under arrest, but without pay since the previous December, and had -no funds, and was about to be discharged. So in order to keep tab on -him, I arranged for him to get a job with a friend, Paul Blakeley, for -whom he worked for a short time, and later got him another job with -a contractor, W. H. Thompson, for whom he is, as far as I know, still -working. And after things get quieted down, I fully intend to see what -information I can get out of Duff, if you can depend on what he says, -and if he knows anything, he has never told anybody up to this date. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, the inference to be drawn is that Duff is an -extremely unreliable individual, so far as telling the truth? - -General WALKER. I wouldn't believe anything the boy would say unless it -was verified. - -General WATTS. I did call Fort Sill and talk to the judge advocate, who -raised considerable question as to the accuracy of the story Duff told -me. And frankly, I wouldn't believe a word the boy would say unless I -have absolute verification of it. But I am at least suspicious that he -knows something that he has never told. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as the attempt on General Walker is concerned? - -General WATTS. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, what makes you think that he does know -something about that? - -Let me say this. Since this is almost a friendly, if I may say so, -session, I assume that we can take it that the remarks that you are -making will be under oath, is that correct? And you will swear to that? - -General WATTS. Yes. - -General WALKER. They should be identified as that of my attorney -because they don't necessarily agree with my opinion. - -General WATTS. My opinion and General Walker's don't frequently jibe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let us swear you. Do you solemnly swear that the -testimony you have given and you will give throughout the rest of this -deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -General WATTS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicated that you had some belief that Duff -might know something about the attempt on General Walker that he hasn't -told you. Do you have any basis for that? - -General WATTS. My only basis is suspicion. First; his generally -unreliable nature. Second; I have never fully satisfied myself as -to the accuracy of the investigation these boys made where Duff -undoubtedly had made some kind of an alarming statement to this unknown -woman who called in. We have never been able to locate or identify her. -I have never reconciled his tape recorder statement that he had not -shot at Walker, but would do so for $5,000, with the apparent statement -to this unidentified woman's daughter that he had actually fired at -Walker. In other words, we could never verify that by our investigation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker, were you satisfied, or did you reach a -conclusion as a result of these investigations or any other way, as to -Duff's involvement in the attack made on you on April 10. Do you think -he knows anything about it that he hasn't told us, or do you think he -was involved in it in any way? Do you have any evidence to indicate -that he was? - -General WALKER. I also know that I wouldn't believe 90 percent of what -Duff said about anything. I have come to no conclusion even after the -investigation that he was even involved. Knowing Duff; I felt that if -the investigators were a little bit naive, they got tricked more than -Duff got tricked. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But these investigators weren't able to develop anything -that led you to think that Duff had been involved in the attack on you -made on April 10, 1963, isn't that right? - -General WALKER. It led me to believe what? - -Mr. LIEBELER. That Duff had been involved in the attack on you. - -General WALKER. According to his fantastic stories, it might lead to -the belief that he had been involved, like my attorney says, but Duff -is so fantastic that I don't believe a word he says. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence other than the statement that -Duff is alleged to have made to his girl friend that would indicate -that he was involved in the attack on you? Do you have any indication -that he was involved in it at all? - -General WALKER. None; other than, as I remember what he has stated, and -there is something else. And based on Duff's nature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't believe what he said? - -General WALKER. He never appeared a vicious fellow, and I rather liked -the guy for what he was supposed to do at the time I had him, until I -realized that nothing was truthful that he said, and I felt that he had -left feeling friendly, actually, except that he left by having been -ushered to the door while I was gone and told not to come back. - -General WATTS. He truly professes to feeling very friendly to -General Walker. I have never confronted him with the fact that the -investigators have a tape recording that he was anxious to get a -shot at Walker for $5,000, but I am still suspicious that Duff knows -something that he hasn't told. - -General WALKER. It is certainly true, to further my counsel's -statement, that Duff certainly lived in the area of night clubs and -beer joints and so forth, and he could still know something and not be -involved himself. - -General WATTS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you any information of any kind that would -indicate or suggest who actually took that shot at you? - -General WALKER. None; other than the indications that have been brought -up here with respect to Duff. He did appear back in my house at one -time after this, just walked in. Which I don't bring up now as an idea -that that gave further indication that he did. I can't seem to recall -exactly what the purpose of his visit was, but I wasn't very warm -toward him and he was soon out the door after talking to him maybe 5 or -10 minutes. - -Other than Duff and what we have covered here, the only indications of -anybody that might have taken a shot at me is what has been said and -expressed by other people regarding Oswald's connection in the case of -shooting at me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So aside from Duff and aside from what has been made -public as regards Oswald's involvement, you have no other leads or -conclusions or ideas as to who might have taken the shot at you on -April 10, 1963? - -General WALKER. No; I am pretty well blocked by you all and the fact -that--not particularly you, as the FBI having taken the information -on the case from the city police, and it is difficult to find who is -now responsible for an open case, and also the lack of contact with my -counsel at any time regarding Oswald's position in this from the time -the shot was fired or even after the events of November 22, 1963. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, all that information will be made public -eventually, and aside from that, the basic thrust of my question at -this moment is, you don't have any other information other than what we -have already covered here that would give us any ideas as to who might -have done that, is that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any basis for believing that there was any -connection between Duff and Oswald? - -General WALKER. None at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never even heard of Oswald? - -General WALKER. Only with respect to what we have passed over with -regard to what we have said about Duff, and we have heard said about -Oswald. I have no information of Oswald's name ever being mentioned -in my house, and I had never heard of the name with regard to the -individual we are referring to at any time since I have been in Dallas -or any other time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have never heard of any connection until the -assassination? - -General WALKER. Until his activities of November 22. More specifically, -no knowledge or no reference of any indication that Duff was in any way -connected with Oswald. I still think that the information that Kirk -Coleman gave is very relevant to this case, and I would like to say as -far as I am concerned, our efforts are practically blocked. - -I would like to see at least a capability of my counsel being able to -talk to these witnesses freely and that you or the FBI give a release -on them with respect to being able to discuss it as it involves me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, has your counsel attempted to talk to Mr. Coleman -and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him? So far as I know, this -Commission---- - -General WATTS. I never tried to talk to Coleman. - -General WALKER. The word we got is, the boy has been told not to say -anything. That may not be the direct information, but I think you will -find it about what the situation is. - -General WATTS. This is off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. The last question was, has your counsel attempted to talk -to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him? - -General WALKER. No; I have no knowledge of my counsel trying to speak -to him, but I was told by others that tried to get to him that he has -been advised and wasn't talking, and that he had been advised not to -talk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, General Walker, do you remember? - -General WALKER. Oh, it's been at least 3 or 4 months ago. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who told him he wasn't supposed to talk to -anybody? - -General WALKER. No; I don't. It is my understanding some law -enforcement agency in some echelon. But the important thing we would -like to find out is who is responsible for the open case, if it is -back in the hands of the city police or if it is still held under -advisement, and as soon as it got back into their hands, we can go to -dealing with them. Until it does, under your requirements, if there -are such requirements, the question becomes when can we get into this -further? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want the record to indicate that the Commission, to my -knowledge at least, and I think I would know about it, has never told -anybody not to talk to you about the attack on you in any way, shape or -form whatsoever, and has no intention of doing so. That is point 1. - -Point 2 is that the Commission is conducting its own investigation into -this matter, and has requested the Federal Bureau of Investigation to -conduct an investigation into the matter, which it has done at the -request of the Commission, and the report will include a finding one -way or the other as to whether Oswald was the man who was involved in -this attack on you. - -General WALKER. It will have such a finding? - -Mr. LIEBELER. It certainly will, and will be a complete disclosure. - -General WALKER. Then it must be handling the case, because we have -information that the city police turned all the information over to the -FBI and there was nothing for us to deal with them about. - -My counsel went to the city police on this. Then the FBI definitely -said that they had turned it over to the Commission, and then they were -under whatever wraps there were, but wraps that kept them from carrying -on any development of the cases. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No activity of this Commission has ever foreclosed any -other law enforcement agency from doing anything that they saw fit to -do. The FBI conducts its investigation in any way it sees fit, and the -Dallas Police Department does the same thing. - -General WALKER. I think we should have a round robin discussion with -the city police, FBI, and yourself, if you all have what you have -stated, so that we will understand this too, and place this case and -the Warren Reynolds case back where they should be. I would think that -we should get together to establish who is responsible for the open -cases in the city of Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the President's Commission on the investigation of -the assassination of President Kennedy is certainly not responsible for -open cases in the city of Dallas. That your counsel will tell you. That -is perfectly obvious. - -General WALKER. Then I want to go on the record that the city police -has misused the Commission and also the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no knowledge of that. - -General WALKER. I think it is--I can't straighten it out and neither -can my counsel. I think it is perfectly obvious that somebody is -misusing somebody, the fact that we have no starting point and this is -an open case, and this is true with Warren Reynolds as well as myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am glad you brought that subject up. Tell us what you -know about that. - -General WALKER. I certainly will. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before you do, I think I did hear the witness come in out -here. - -Go ahead. - -General WALKER. I would prefer you to question me on which way you want -me to discuss this case and I will answer what is necessary. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Warren Reynolds? - -General WALKER. I do know Warren Reynolds. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him? - -General WALKER. My first contact with Warren Reynolds was by telephone, -I would say sometime in the area of 8 or 10 days after he was shot -through the temple. I thought I had the date of that, or the press -release, but I didn't seem to bring it with me. But you probably have -that date. - -It doesn't make much difference. I would say sometime I saw a notice in -the paper when it came out to the effect that Warren Reynolds had been -shot in the head and a Latin type was seen running away. - -I left on a trip and came back to the house, and I was curious about -Warren Reynolds and I asked somebody in the house to call and see about -Reynolds, and was told to call the hospital. - -I found out that day finally after calling out to his place of -business, found out he was out walking around that afternoon. I think -we found out he had just been released from the hospital that day. I -would say that was about 10 days from the time he was fired at. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have the date of that? - -General WALKER. That was approximately January 23 or January 24, 1964, -and within a day or two I had a telephone conversation over there. - -I talked to Warren Reynolds finally and he said he wanted to talk to me -or said he would talk to me, and I asked him the circumstances of what -had happened to him. - -Within a day or two I would say--I said, "If you want to see me, you -can." And he came to the house and discussed what had happened to him -with regard to being shot through the head, how it all happened, and I -have been quite interested in his case. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, am I correct in understanding that you initiated the -contact with Mr. Reynolds? - -General WALKER. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him? - -General WALKER. Sir? - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the first time you actually saw him in person, -if you ever did, and I believe that you did. - -General WALKER. I don't remember the exact date, but a week after the -first telephone conversation, within a week or so after the first -telephone conversation, I believe he dropped by the house with his -brother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him in person altogether? - -General WALKER. I believe he has been in the house twice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have also had various telephone conversations with -him, isn't that right, General Walker? - -General WALKER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you talked on the telephone with him yesterday -noon, didn't you? - -General WALKER. Very likely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether you did? - -General WALKER. I talked to him yesterday, yes. I don't remember the -exact time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the substance, the general substance -of your conversation with him over this period that you have been in -contact with him. - -General WALKER. I was very much interested in his case and why they -would have, why there would have been an attempt on his life, since, -according to his story, you might say he was the last one to see Oswald -in the domestic state after he had killed Police Officer Tippit. - -I have had these conversations with him to get all the details I could -regarding why he thought he was shot at or who shot at him and what the -police were doing about it, and how he felt about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the first time that he talked to -you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him -and his observation of Oswald? - -General WALKER. Pardon? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Following the time that Oswald shot Officer Tippit? - -General WALKER. Will you repeat the question? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Reynolds tell you that he thought there was some -connection between the attack on him and Oswald killing Tippit? - -General WALKER. We discussed that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he thought there was a connection -between the two? - -General WALKER. He seemed to think there might be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think there is? - -General WALKER. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence to indicate that there is? - -General WALKER. I think there is a definite--I don't know that you -could call it evidence--but you can anticipate that people would like -to shut up anybody that knows anything about this case. People right -here in Dallas. And I don't think anybody knows or would have known at -the time after November 22 how much or how little Warren Reynolds knew. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he doesn't know very much, does he? - -General WALKER. He would become a very good example, regardless of what -he knew, to let everybody know that they better keep their mouths shut. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, wouldn't it be fair to say that that is pure -speculation on your part? - -General WALKER. Yes, but everything is speculation until you prove it -or disprove it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But my basic problem is this, and I am not just trying to -harass you. - -I want to know if you have any evidence or can give us some idea on -how to approach this problem to find out if there is any connection, -because the Commission would certainly like to know if there is. - -General WALKER. I would be much interested in the hanging of the woman -in the prison here in the cell that said she had worked in the Carousel -Club, her only claim to fame, who I believe was the same woman, as I -remember my information at this point, was the same woman that was -driven over to this used car lot where the Reynolds brothers worked. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, in point of fact, your primary source of -information in connection with this whole thing is the newspaper story -written by Bob Considine; isn't that right? That is where you first got -all this information? - -General WALKER. He did cite this case; that is correct. That was one of -the pieces of information I had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You cited from this newspaper story and the statements -that Warren Reynolds has made to you, and your observations about what -you have been told about the facts regarding this stripper. - -Are these the only things that led you to believe, plus your other -statement about keeping people quiet, are the only things that led you -to believe there might be some connection between these two events? -Isn't that a fair statement? - -General WALKER. It would seem significant to me from Reynolds' story -that he was only checked by the law enforcement agencies 2 days before -he was shot, that somebody was watching what was going on. - -There are many things that would make me go into a lot of leads which -no doubt make you all go into a lot of leads. Probably what you already -know, but just to say that one particular thing is the only thing -that makes me curious about this attempt on Warren's life as the one -out of a hundred of used car lot operators in Dallas, to attempt the -assassination of Warren who had seen Oswald, makes this quite unusual. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell us right now on the record all of the -things that you can think of that led you to believe that there is some -connection between these two events, in addition to the ones that you -have already suggested. - -General WALKER. I have just referred to one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That one that you referred to is the---- - -General WALKER. The fact that there has not been, as far as I know, any -finding of the man who attempted to kill him, is another one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Reynolds had said that the -law enforcement--you didn't say Reynolds said it--you said that you -understood that the law enforcement officers had checked Reynolds just -2 days before he had been shot; is that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Reynolds told you? - -General WALKER. That is correct. I believe he referred to them as FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other indications of any possible -relationship between these things, that would help the Commission try -to find out if there is a relationship between these events? - -General WALKER. I don't think of anything else; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now you sent a telegram to the Commission suggesting that -we question Warren Reynolds? - -General WALKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you probably know, of course, we have questioned him -yesterday. - -General WALKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss Mr. Reynolds' appearance with us, with -him? - -General WALKER. I did. He called me on the telephone and we discussed -it. He said you were a very nice young man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, General Walker. Thank Mr. Reynolds. You didn't -say that. That is what he said. That isn't what you said. - -General WALKER. I may call him tonight and tell him the same thing. - -I think we are working in the same effort and same direction. I haven't -done anything to hide on this thing. I do ask that you all get the -chain of command straightened out here, or chain of responsibility with -respect to the case. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Those problems come up many times because there isn't any -real chain of command or responsibility between these people. We don't -have very much to do with the Dallas Police Department. - -General WALKER. When they pass things to the FBI and the FBI is -responsible to you, then it gives me a feeling it is probably out of -their hands. Certainly they have used that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you have any knowledge or any information that -would indicate that Oswald was involved in a conspiracy of any type on -the assassination of the President? - -General WALKER. I think he designated his own conspiracy when he said -he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. That to me is a -definite recognition of conspiracy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Suggesting that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was -involved? - -General WALKER. I would say as a member of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee, it could not be segregated from being involved in it when -one of its members does it, who thinks like they do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is of course, your view. My question of you -is this. Do you have any evidence or any knowledge that would indicate -either the involvement of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or any other -individual or organization in a conspiracy or plot to assassinate the -President. - -The fact that Oswald may have been a member of this organization, which -he was, of course, is a fact that can be viewed from many different -ways. But my question to you is somewhat different from that, and -that is, do you know of or have any evidence to indicate that this -organization or any other organization or any other person was involved -with Oswald in the assassination of the President? - -General WALKER. My answer to you is that I have exactly the evidence -that you have, which is evidence that it was involved in the -conspiracy, because he said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee, and I consider the objectives of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee a Communist activity and a conspiracy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if anyone discussed the assassination with -Oswald prior to the time that he assassinated the President, if he did -the assassination; do you have any indication of that? - -General WALKER. I have no personal knowledge that they did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any indication that they did? - -General WALKER. I certainly do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what that is? - -General WALKER. The indications seem to be not only mine, but all over -the country that Rubenstein and Oswald had some association. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you indicate to us what it was? - -General WALKER. Well, I am wondering about one thing, how Rubenstein -can take his car in to be fixed and Oswald can sign the ticket and pick -up the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us when and where that happened? - -General WALKER. I haven't been able to verify that it happened for -sure, but I have been told that it happened. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? - -General WALKER. My information came from a repairman, from another -fellow to a friend of mine, to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you give us the name of the person? - -General WALKER. I don't think it is necessary. I think you have all the -information, because the information also includes the fact that the -records were picked up in the repair shop. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Whether we have the information or not, I am asking you -if you know the name of that repairman who said that Oswald said he -picked up his car? - -General WALKER. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the garage? - -General WALKER. No; I don't. As I remember, it was a hotel garage. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give us the name of the people that brought the -information to you, so it can be traced back to this source? Who the -garageman is, apparently as you say, that it came from a garageman -somewhere. - -General WALKER. No; I think your sources are better than mine on this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is not my question. My question is, do you know -their names? - -General WALKER. Yes; I do, but I am not telling. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not going to tell us the names of these people? - -General WALKER. Hold up. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -General WALKER. We are all working in the best interests of this thing. -I don't see where my sources of information have to be revealed. You -know whether the information is any good or not, and I don't see any -reason to get any more people involved than are already involved -in it. The information is either correct or incorrect, and can be -substantiated by your Commission, or it is not. - -This that I am telling you is the information I have got. Now, if you -all find out that it is absolutely necessary to your information, -but revelation of the names of the people isn't necessary to your -information with regard to the assassination. I think we have covered -the assassination, and--as helpful as I can be--don't think I wouldn't -be delighted to see exactly all the truth that can probably come out of -it, come out of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All we are asking you to do is give us whatever -information you have that can help us in this investigation. - -General WALKER. That I think we have covered, haven't we? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know whether we have or not. - -General WALKER. If you find out you need the further information that -will really help the assassination story--we will leave it like this--I -will do the best I can to cooperate on it, but I don't think it is -necessary to reveal all the sources of my information, and the story -which you all should have the basic facts. The basic facts are the -records on the story and you either know whether or not they are true -or not. I haven't done all this investigation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I am not able to make a determination as to -whether or not the information that you have would be helpful to the -Commission's work because I don't know what information you have. - -General WALKER. Let's leave that, because if it is in the best interest -of finding anything, that there is a hole in their findings, why we -will reveal it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to let the question stand. I do ask you to -tell me who advised you or who apprised you of information that -Oswald picked up Jack Ruby's car, because I am not able to make a -determination as to whether or not that information would be worthless -to the Commission. It might be helpful and it it might be that these -people should be questioned by people on the Commission staff or by the -FBI. So for that reason, I am compelled to let the question stand, and -I do renew my request for you to give me the answer. - -General WALKER. I will answer that at some later date if you find it -necessary, I will reconsider it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the matter we have just discussed, can -you tell us what other common acquaintances Mr. Ruby and Mr. Oswald -had, as that is the statement that started all this? You indicated that -Ruby and Oswald had common acquaintances. - -General WALKER. I thought DeMar's statements--I believe the man is -DeMar--were very interesting, and they were only by hearsay from the -newspaper, if you call that hearsay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other indication that Oswald and Ruby -were connected? - -General WALKER. I am going back on the other question. I say it was -only from newspapers. They have been also from the owner or editor of -the newspaper, who may have told me that his reporter had been in touch -with DeMar. I believe the town is on the Tennessee-Kentucky border or -somewhere up there. I don't recall the name of the town where he was at -the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is DeMar that was up there? - -General WALKER. Yes. Have I got the right name? DeMar is the man that -was on the program in one of Rubenstein's clubs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The name seems familiar to me. I don't know the man's -name actually myself. - -General WALKER. As I recall, it was DeMar, the one that made the -original statement that he saw Oswald in the club one night. That was -printed in the press. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from the fellow DeMar having made the statement, do -you know of any other connection between Ruby and Oswald or any other -common acquaintances that they may have? - -General WALKER. I believe we verified that Oswald had been for a short -period living in the same apartment house where Ruby's sister lived. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is Ruby's sister's name? - -General WALKER. Eva Grant. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what apartment house that is? - -General WALKER. No; I don't recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who verified this? - -General WALKER. I say I believe I verified it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did yourself? - -General WALKER. With assistance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are telling me that you conducted an -investigation of some sort into the possibility that Ruby's sister, Eva -Grant, and Oswald lived in the same apartment house? Now is that in the -city of Dallas? - -General WALKER. That is correct. And as I recall the address, I never -did pinpoint it, but as I recall, it wouldn't be too far from where I -live. And of course, I am still interested in my case with respect to -Oswald, if there is any significance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me when they were supposed to have lived -in this apartment house? - -General WALKER. I don't recall the date. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it 1963? - -General WALKER. This is getting pretty old in my mind. It definitely -would have been in 1963; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1963? - -General WALKER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was the apartment on Neely Street, if you remember? - -General WALKER. As I recall--is Neely over in Oak Cliff or on this side? - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is in Oak Cliff. - -General WALKER. No; it wasn't that far away. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It wasn't in Oak Cliff at all? - -General WALKER. Well, I had the idea at the time that it was on this -side of town, out the side I am on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, from the time Oswald came back from the Soviet -Union and moved to Dallas and the time he was killed, he lived in an -apartment on Neely Street, and on Elsbeth Street and in a room on -Marsalis Street, and 1026 North Beckley Street. Those are the only four -places he ever lived. Was it on any one of those four streets that this -is supposed to have happened? - -General WALKER. I can't recall definitely. Are they over in Oak Cliff? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I believe each and every one of them, with the possible -exception of Marsalis, is. - -General WALKER. I can get the information that I must have recorded -somewhere on the address we have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you have any indication that Oswald lived in the same -apartment house that Ruby's sister lived, I will appreciate it very -much if you would supply it to the Commission. - -General WALKER. Take a note on that, will you. I believe there is a -paper release on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that would indicate any -connection between Ruby and Oswald? By that question I do not mean to -characterize the previous testimony. - -General WALKER. If Oswald was the one that was at my house, I wonder -where he was from the time he left until he got home, since the Las -Vegas Club is not too far from my house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any indication that Oswald went to that club? - -General WALKER. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that would suggest a -connection between these two men? - -General WALKER. I think the two boxes in the post office are very -interesting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, are you suggesting that because two men both -happened to have post office boxes in the same post office, that that -suggests there is some connection between them and indicates conspiracy -to assassinate the President? - -General WALKER. The boxes were rented the same week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were what? - -General WALKER. I believe the boxes were arranged the same week in the -post office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Rented? - -General WALKER. Rented. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that suggests a conspiracy between Oswald and -Ruby to assassinate the President? - -General WALKER. I think that is more information. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But I want to know. - -General WALKER. That suggests a possible relationship. I think the fact -that Rubenstein shot Oswald suggests plenty. I am convinced he couldn't -have shot him except for one basic reason, and maybe many others, but -to keep him quiet. That is what shooting people does. I think the -whole city of Dallas is very interested. I would be interested in the -information on a Professor Wolf, William T. Wolf. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he? - -General WALKER. William T. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What information is that? - -General WALKER. The first man we found in the paper that seemed to have -come to death after the attempted shot at me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with the circumstances surrounding -that. Would you tell me about Dr. Wolf? - -General WALKER. William T. Wolf is a professor that was supposedly -burned up in an apartment, which seems impossible to have burned a man -up, a normal man with his normal faculties, because the apartment, he -couldn't have been trapped in it on the first floor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Dr. Wolf? - -General WALKER. Never heard of him until I read about him in the paper, -and I believe I read about him 8 days after they shot at me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think there is some connection between Dr. Wolf's -death and the shot at you? - -General WALKER. No; but I think there is some connection with respect -to what is going on in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, does this relate to the possibility of a -conspiracy between Oswald and Ruby to assassinate President Kennedy? - -General WALKER. I think many unusual deaths in the city of Dallas might -show some indication of what is going on in Dallas, to include what -happened on the 22d of November. And I would refer to one other, a -professor by the name of Deen. His name is George C. Deen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What has that got to do with the assassination of -President Kennedy? What are the facts about it? - -General WALKER. I would think it has to do with the investigation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in what way? - -General WALKER. It seems rather mysterious that a young doctor of -psychiatry at Timberlawn would, so far as I can tell, only show up in -the obituary page. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to this fellow? - -General WALKER. Reported died of natural causes, I believe, or -certainly nothing more than the obituary, so far as I can find. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the organization known as The -Minutemen? - -General WALKER. In general terms. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member of that organization? - -General WALKER. I am not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between The Minutemen and -the assassination of President Kennedy? - -General WALKER. I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any conspiracy or connection on the part -of any so-called rightwing organization and the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -General WALKER. I do not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between any of the people -who associate themselves with and who, shall we say, follow you as a -political leader, and the assassination of President Kennedy? - -General WALKER. No. People that follow me are for constitutional -government. This is absolutely in violation of constitutional -government. Very destructive to what we stand for. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that there is no involvement of any kind -or nature whatever between any of the organizations or people that -associate with you or are involved with you in the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -General WALKER. I certainly know of none, and I certainly wouldn't be -suspicious of any. I would be suspicious from the center to the left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you don't have any knowledge of or -information that would suggest to you any such conspiracy or -involvement of any rightwing organization or person; is that correct? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I asked General Watts to bring whatever records you -have that would indicate your whereabouts in October and after that -in 1963. Particularly, I want to know whether you were at a political -rally or meeting that was held immediately prior to the visit of Adlai -Stevenson to the city of Dallas in October of 1963. - -General WALKER. Yes, I was the speaker on the day before Mr. Stevenson -appeared in the auditorium. I was the speaker in the same room and the -same platform on October 22. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that event called U.S. Day? - -General WALKER. U.S. Day rally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many people would you say were there at that rally? - -General WALKER. The room holds about 1,700 seats, and there were about -1,300 to 1,400. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald claims -to have been at that meeting? - -General WALKER. No, sir; I wasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was there at the time? - -General WALKER. I don't know yet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you didn't know then? - -General WALKER. Certainly didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall speaking--pardon me, not speaking, but -going to any meetings of anti-Castro Cuban groups during the month of -October 1963? - -General WALKER. During what month? - -Mr. LIEBELER. October. - -General WALKER. I don't remember a date of attendance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that there were some meetings here -in Dallas sponsored by an organization known as DRE, which is a -revolutionary group that is opposed to Fidel Castro? Do you remember -that? - -General WALKER. What does DRE stand for? - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is the initials of a lot of Spanish words which -stands for the Student Revolutionary Council. It is an anti-Castro -organization. - -General WALKER. What does DRE stand for? How would they have advertised -themselves? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think it is probably DRE. - -General WALKER. Meaning what? - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is Spanish words I am not familiar with. - -General WALKER. Well, there is a student directorate group, which I -remember they call themselves, and that is the way they identified -themselves. I attended a meeting sometime and listened to some speakers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They came from Miami? - -General WALKER. I believe they came from Miami. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you contributed $5 to the organization that night? - -General WALKER. I believe I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at that meeting? - -General WALKER. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In point of fact, it would be correct to state that, to -your knowledge, you never saw or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time -prior to the time that his name was announced after the assassination -on November 22, 1963? - -General WALKER. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no connection of any sort whatsoever with him -prior to that time? - -General WALKER. None at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or since that time? - -General WALKER. Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated -with him, unless Duff turns out to be. - -General WATTS. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Helmet Hubert Muench? - -General WALKER. That name is not familiar to me. Can you give me -anything to refresh me? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. He is a West German journalist who wrote an article -that appeared in the Deutsche Nationalzeitung und Soldatenzeitung, a -Munich, Germany, newspaper. - -General WALKER. No; I don't know him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to him? - -General WALKER. Not that I know of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him on a transatlantic telephone call in -which you told him about the fact or the alleged fact that Lee Harvey -Oswald was the person who made an attempt on your life? - -General WALKER. I don't recall that name. Did he speak English? I don't -speak German. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a copy of that newspaper? - -General WALKER. Yes; I have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I suggest that you have seen the November 29, -1963, copy of that newspaper which had on its front page a story -entitled in German "The Strange Case of Oswald", that told about how -Oswald had allegedly attacked you. - -General WALKER. November 29, that is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, where did that newspaper get that information, do -you know? - -General WALKER. I do not. There was an article in the paper that he -probably got from me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in fact, the issue of that newspaper has right -on the front page what purports to be a transcript of a telephone -conversation between you and some other person. - -General WALKER. Thorsten? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Hasso Thorsten, is that the man? - -General WALKER. He called me in Shreveport. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you in Shreveport? - -General WALKER. He called me the morning of November 23, 1963, about 7 -a.m. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is when you gave him this information about Oswald -having attacked you? - -General WALKER. I didn't give him all the information--I think the -portion you are referring to, I didn't give him, because I had no way -of knowing that Oswald attacked me. I still don't. And I am not very -prone to say in fact he did. In fact, I have always claimed he did not, -until we can get into the case or somebody tells us differently that he -did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a record here that indicates when you were in -Shreveport? - -General WALKER. I don't know that I have a record here. I can tell you -definitely when I was in Shreveport. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you? - -General WALKER. Well, starting back to make the record clear, I had a -speaking engagement in Hattiesburg, Miss., either the 18th or 19th of -November. I went from there to New Orleans and stayed 2 or 3 days. I -was in the airplane between New Orleans and Shreveport about halfway, -when the pilot announced that the President had been assassinated. I -landed in Shreveport and went to the Captain Shreve Hotel and stayed -there two nights and returned to Dallas and was walking into my house, -just about the time of the immediate rerun of the shooting of Oswald. I -had been out of the city on speaking engagements. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The question was, when were you in Shreveport, and when -did you talk to this man? - -General WALKER. I was in Shreveport the night of the 23d and the night -of the 22d. Do you have a transcript of my conversation with Mr. -Thorsten? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. - -General WALKER. Sir? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have what appears to be that; yes. - -General WALKER. Where did you get that? - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is apparently taken from the newspaper. The newspaper -itself had a transcript printed right in it. - -General WALKER. I believe the article you referred to in the newspaper -was separate from the other article in the paper which evolved out of -the conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now so that there were in this particular issue of the -newspaper two transcripts of a conversation between yourself and -Thorsten, and also a story about how Oswald had allegedly fired at you, -is that correct? - -General WALKER. In the newspaper I remember two separate articles. One -based upon the conversation we had between us, as he understood it, and -then as a separate article which I consider that the newspaper had done -on its own. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the separate article about? Did that have any -reference to the fact that Oswald had allegedly fired at you? - -General WALKER. Yes. As I remember the article, it alleged that Oswald -was the one that had fired at me, and that this had been known earlier, -and that this had been known and that nothing was done about it. - -And if something had been done about it at that time, he wouldn't have -been the man that--it wouldn't have been possible for him to have -killed the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, did you tell anybody from this newspaper that -Oswald had shot at you and that this had been known prior to the time -of the assassination of the President? - -General WALKER. No; I did not. I wouldn't have known it. It was much -later that they began to tie Oswald into me, and I don't even know it -yet. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you certainly didn't know it before November 22? - -General WALKER. Or the morning of the 23d, certainly not. I was very -surprised to see the article. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the best of your recollection is that you never -provided them with the information? - -General WALKER. I did not. I didn't know it at the time of this -conversation at all. I didn't know it until I started reading the -newspaper, which would have been later than then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think that is right, so that you only had two -conversations with these people, is that correct? - -General WALKER. In connection with this incident, as I remember, there -was a call back to verify something on the original conversation? -I don't remember how the conversation came about. There were two -telephone conversations; right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They both took place while you were down in Louisiana, -the 23d and the 22d of November? - -General WALKER. The first one was 7 o'clock in the morning the 23d, and -it woke me up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the faintest idea that Oswald had taken -a shot at you and you didn't make a statement to that effect to the -newspaper? - -General WALKER. No; I didn't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't make a statement to the newspaper or anybody -connected with it at any other time, isn't that a fact? - -General WALKER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is it not a fact? - -General WALKER. I might have said that the reports over here had -connected Oswald with me some subsequent time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am somewhat puzzled by the whole thing, because the -newspaper in which this apparently appeared is dated November 29, and -in fact, that information was not known to anybody that I know of until -a later date than that---- - -General WALKER. Much later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Several days, at any rate. - -General WALKER. People began to guess it immediately. I should say -guess at it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It might have been that the article was based on -speculation, and it might have been the newspaper was postdated too. I -think that sometimes happens. - -General WALKER. I think that paper was definitely postdated. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that would explain it. That is what I mean, predated. - -General WALKER. That is something else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that you think the -Commission ought to have that we haven't already talked about? - -General WALKER. Yes. I think the Commission should look into George De -Mohrenschildt, if it hasn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you know about Mr. De Mohrenschildt? - -General WALKER. I know that my information indicates that he lived next -door to the professor that was supposed to have burned up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would connect De -Mohrenschildt to the assassination of President Kennedy in any way? - -General WALKER. I have the information the paper had that connected him -with the Oswalds. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes? - -General WALKER. Of course, it is common knowledge that De Mohrenschildt -was associated with Oswald now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, do you have any information to indicate -that De Mohrenschildt was involved in any way with the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -General WALKER. Not directly. - -General WATTS. Do you have any indirect evidence? - -General WALKER. I am tired of them blaming the rightwing, and I have -had enough of this, and it is about time that the Commission cleared -the city of Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you have any indirect indication or -evidence that would associate De Mohrenschildt with the assassination -of President Kennedy in any way? - -General WALKER. I think it is very important that De Mohrenschildt -knew Oswald. I think it is very interesting. My information is that De -Mohrenschildt went to Haiti. I have nothing further to add. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else that you think the Commission -ought to know that we have not already mentioned here this evening? It -is now 7:15. - -General WALKER. Where am I at? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to suggest--I just wanted to let the record -show we are both working very hard. - -General WALKER. I will stay here all night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you have anything else that you think the Commission -should know or that you consider to be of material importance, I want -you to say so, General Walker, because I think that you have--I hope -you realize that the Commission is trying to do the best job that it -can with the situation, and that if you can be of help to us, or if -anybody else could be of help to us, we want your help. - -General WALKER. That is my approach to the problem. We certainly want -the truth. We want the truth to come out. - -General WATTS. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -General WALKER. I believe it has been released to the press that, and -I am not sure that it has, but some information has gotten to me, I -can't recall how, but the bullet that was fired at me matched the gun -of the type that Oswald used on the 22d. That sounds rather vague, but -I believe that is the way the information has come. - -General WATTS. This is off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts has indicated that he had some ammunition -the investigators got from Mr. Duff and I request you to forward that -ammunition, to deliver it to the FBI in Oklahoma City and ask them -to forward it to the FBI laboratory, and I will contact the FBI in -Washington when I get back. - -General WALKER. Don't you want to clarify that where they found that in -the apartment, wasn't it? - -General WATTS. Yes. I will get the investigator and get the detailed -source of the ammunition and turn the ammunition over to the FBI in -Oklahoma City. - -General WALKER. I can think of nothing else that I am not sure hasn't -already come to the Commission one way or another. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Very well. I have no more questions. I want to thank you -very much for coming down and appearing before us and giving us the -testimony you have. We appreciate it. - -General WALKER. Thank you very much. If I can do anything further for -you, we will be happy to. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF BERNARD WEISSMAN - -The testimony of Bernard Weissman was taken at 10:30 a.m., on June 9, -1964, at the U.S. District Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., -by Mr. Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel of the President's -Commission. - - -Bernard Weissman, called as a witness, having first been duly sworn by -the notary public, testified as follows: - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, could you state your full name? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Bernard Weissman. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And your address? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. 439 South Columbus Avenue, Mount Vernon, N.Y. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, did you receive a copy of the rules -governing this deposition? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had an opportunity to study them? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. I have had an opportunity to study them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your occupation, Mr. Weissman? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Salesman. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How long have you lived at your present address? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Presently or totally? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Presently. - -Mr. WEISSMAN. About 1 year. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, I now hand you an advertisement beginning -"Welcome, Mr. Kennedy," from the Dallas Morning News, Friday, November -22, 1963, which I will mark Weissman Exhibit No. 1. - -(Excerpt from Dallas Morning News, Friday, November 22, 1963, marked -Weissman Exhibit No. 1.) - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Might I interject at this point that since I don't have -the advice of counsel, that I reserve the right to refuse to answer any -question that I feel may not be in my best interests at the moment? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Certainly. Now, under the rules, of course, you are -entitled to counsel, and if you wish we can adjourn this deposition so -that you can get counsel. - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I have tried to get counsel, and I frankly can't -afford it, and the counsel I could afford wouldn't take the case. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I see. Well, would you wish us to try to make -arrangements for a court-appointed counsel? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. This would be entirely up to you. I should think -possibly that if I can see my way clear to answer your more pertinent -questions--in other words, to your satisfaction--it might not be -necessary. Otherwise, we can do this some other time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, it is entirely up to you. Now, we can adjourn if -you want or we can continue and see whether the questions are pertinent -in your mind or not. - -Mr. WEISSMAN. I would rather continue and to avoid repeating this -again, taking time out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, I hand you this advertisement which I have -labeled Weissman Exhibit No. 1, and ask you whether you are familiar -with this advertisement? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you the Bernard Weissman whose name appears at the -bottom of this advertisement, as chairman? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Weissman, could you tell us how this advertisement -came to be composed? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. It is rather simple. A group of individuals in Dallas, -friends of mine, got together and decided to express our feeling about -the domestic and foreign policy of the Kennedy administration, and we -felt that picketing, anything of the nature of picketing, and so forth, -wouldn't go, since the Stevenson incident. We decided that the best way -to get our point across would be to run an ad. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When was this decision made? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. The decision was made approximately a week or so before -Kennedy's arrival in Dallas. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That would be approximately November 15, 1963? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Approximately; a few days more, a few days less, in there. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Who were the individuals who participated in this -decision? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Larry Schmidt, Bill Burley, myself, and one or two other -individuals who I would rather not mention. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state the reasons why you don't want to mention -these individuals, Mr. Weissman? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. As a matter of fact, it is not that I doubt your -sincerity, personally, it is just that I doubt that--or it is my -feeling that there are several members of the Commission that might -use, if I implicate any individuals or organizations other than the -ones I have mentioned, that this may be used as a political weapon -later this year and the coming years, and I feel that what with very -comprehensive FBI reports and the report I have given to the FBI -myself, and the Secret Service, that any loose parts that are left out -right now can be pieced together if you desire to do it, from their -reports, very simply and very easily. - -The reason I don't have the confidence I should have, not in the -Commission itself, but in some of the counsel to the Commission, for -example, Norman Redlich, if even 5 percent of what I hear about the -individual is true, I don't want to have this man in a position to hurt -anybody who has been or is an associate of mine. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, Mr. Weissman, the subject of this deposition, -of course, is the advertisement, and it is crucial to that question -who composed the ad and who was instrumental in its placement in the -newspaper. Now, you are not represented by counsel, and I don't want -to press you to answer a question in the absence of representation -by counsel. However, since this is the very subject with which the -deposition is concerned, I think that if you don't want to answer that -question we should stand adjourned until you can obtain counsel, and I -will attempt to get a court-appointed counsel for you, if you can't get -counsel yourself. If you wish, and we can hold a recess while you think -it over. - -Mr. WEISSMAN. Call a recess for a few minutes. - -(Recess.) - -Mr. WEISSMAN. What is your opinion here now? Let me put it to you that -way. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think that if there is any question in your mind at -all as to what questions you should answer, that you should get a -lawyer. - -Mr. WEISSMAN. This is what I am going to do. I am going to read you, it -looks like about three or four pages, typewritten pages, I will read it -into the record. - -It will tell the story why I came to Dallas, exactly what I and several -of my associates wished to accomplish. - -I will name them where necessary and when I am finished I will let this -stand as my complete testimony, period, finis, and if at any other time -the Commission wants to talk with me, they will have to subpena me and -at that time--I want to get it over once and for all. - -I am going to tell my story now as to why I did things I have done, how -it came about, how the ad happened to fit into this pattern, and it -will be all very simple and logical. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Go ahead. You understand that when I say to go ahead I -don't mean that we will not be asking further questions, but you are -certainly welcome to put this in. - -Mr. WEISSMAN. I understand. Our preparation to come to Dallas was made -approximately---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me 1 second, Mr. Weissman. I want you to be very -sure that before you enter this statement in the record you shouldn't -consult an attorney? - -(Witness indicates.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are gesturing "no"? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. I am gesturing "No"; that is right. About 3 years ago -in Munich, Germany, while I was in the service, I and several friends -joined or formed a conservative political organization, dedicated to a -conservative philosophy, and I am going to read what you might call the -constitution or the aims of that organization. - -This was originally written by Larry Schmidt, who originally founded -the organization, which is known as CUSA, or Conservatism, U.S.A., and -this particular copy was prepared for the recruitment of new members -and what was expected of them. - -It also applies to the members of what we call ourselves, the council. -The council originally consisted of myself, of Larry Schmidt, of Bill -Burley, of a Larry Jones, who is no longer associated in any way with -us, of Norman Baker, who is no longer associated in any way with us, -James Mosley, who is no longer associated in any way with us. - -How was CUSA organized? CUSA, with its headquarters in Dallas, No. 5417 -Louis Street, is broken down into two branches. The stateside branch, -which was headed by Larry Schmidt, and the overseas branch, which was -headed by myself. - -Although both presently function separately from each other, they both -have the same organization, etc. - -On August 1, 1963, the overseas branch will discontinue being a -separate branch and will become completely subsidiary to the main -stateside branch. - -CUSA is set up similar to the Ford Motor Co. and its dependent, the -Ford Foundation. - -Ford Motor Co. of CUSA is American Businesses, Inc. or AMBUS. AMBUS -will be a private profitmaking corporation which finances its own -Ford Foundation, which is Conservatism, USA, a nonprofit, nonpartisan -conservative political foundation with the goals outlined above. - -The owners of AMBUS are the same as the five partners who are the -board chairmen of CUSA, the partners I mentioned before. All positions -in AMBUS and CUSA are appointed by the ETC or the executive in the -council, which again are the five members of that which has been -mentioned. - -Every member of CUSA and AMBUS who works for either or both of AMBUS -and CUSA full time shall be paid at a salary at least equivalent to -that paid a man in a similar position in industry or politics. - -In most cases AMBUS and CUSA will pay its people higher salaries. - -CUSA is broken down into three divisions: the political analysis -division, the recruitment and fund solicitation division, and the -foreign affairs division. - -AMBUS is divided into two divisions: the business management division -and the public relations division. - -AMBUS' two divisions fully support the activities of CUSA. Each -division has its own organizational setup and subsidiary sections and -officers to carry out its functions. - -For a copy of this, ask the chief of your particular branch--that is -pertaining to a new member. He will be happy to show it to you. For -detailed information on the operations of any particular division, ask -the chief of the division in question. - -Geographically CUSA is broken down into six regions. These are the -eastern, northern, southern, southwestern, midwestern, and western -regions. - -Each region has several States under its jurisdiction. - -The headquarters of each region are as follows: eastern, New York City; -northern, Chicago; southern, Atlanta; southwestern, Dallas; midwestern, -Wichita; western, Los Angeles. - -These regional headquarters come directly under CUSA's Dallas -home headquarters. Each State within the region also has its CUSA -headquarters. In each case the headquarters is located in the capital -of each State. - -The State headquarters come directly under the regional headquarters -in which they are located. Each State in turn is broken down into -districts with several counties comprising a district. - -Most States are broken down into four or five districts. These -district headquarters come directly under the State headquarters and -the breakdowns go along as I have mentioned, and it gets smaller and -smaller as the areas get smaller. - -Both AMBUS and CUSA will have staffs in each of the regional State -district and city headquarters. These will be full-time salaried -employees. - -How does CUSA expect to gain its goals? CUSA is convinced it can induce -all other conservative organizations to join it, especially if CUSA has -induced a large number, that more and more will want to jump on its -bandwagon. - -For those organizations that refuse to join, CUSA will bring pressures -to bear to end their resistance. - -CUSA will also work closely with conservatives in the Republican and -Democratic parties. - -Among CUSA's members are some of the finest salesmen around, men who -know how to convince, how to sell, how to persuade: CUSA intends -to work toward monopolization of the money available for rightwing -organizations, thus forcing any organizations to come into the CUSA -fold. - -CUSA will use any method, so long as it is legal and honorable, to -attain its goal. A timetable has been set up to guide CUSA's actions, -when each project has to be completed, and places these projects in -proper timetable sequence. - -What will happen to CUSA after it reaches its goals? CUSA shall -continue to aid the conservative cause and keep our Government -conservative. So long as there is a U.S.A. there shall be a CUSA. - -Can I make a career of CUSA? Most definitely. CUSA and AMBUS are big -business. Think of CUSA as being the same as a political party like the -Democratic or Republican. Even if it isn't actually a third party, it -shall function as one. However, if you desire and have the necessary -qualifications, CUSA will even run an individual for a political office -if it feels you can win. - -AMBUS needs good business minds and CUSA needs aggressive political -minds. - -Above all, CUSA-AMBUS needs salesmen, public speakers, writers, -debaters, analysts. Men who think like men of action and act like men -of thought. - -But CUSA also needs background men, men willing to stay out of the -public eye and work quietly to do the planning, thinking, creating, -formalizing, and other things in a great cause. - -CUSA-AMBUS has established regular wage scales along the line of the -civil service, GS-4 to GS-18. - -Just what is a conservative, anyway? A conservative is a person who -looks at a man or a woman as an individual and respects him or her as -a unique human being rather than just a face in the crowd; a member -of the mass who believes in individual initiative above collective -charity, yet accepts charity where the individual cannot provide -for himself; who believes the Government should be supported by the -people, not the people supported by the Government; who believes -Government should be restricted to those areas of concern outlined in -the Constitution of the United States of America, leaving the citizen -free to pursue life, liberty and happiness without the overburdens -of excessive taxation that restrict such pursuits; who believes that -every effort should be made by individuals to provide for themselves -first and when that can't be done, help by local, State, or private -charitable organizations rather than by Federal Government aid -comprised of general taxation; who believes that the Federal Government -should not compete with private enterprise or interfere with the rights -of the States as outlined in the Constitution; who believes that the -best Government is the Government which governs least; who believes -that the best interests of the American people should be served by its -Government first before the peoples of other countries, yet believes we -Americans must help the needy peoples of other countries; who believes -the best interests of the U.S.A. should first be served by our Federal -Government before the needs of other nations are looked into, yet that -we should aid needy nations where aid is justified and deserved, and in -the best interests of our country; who believes that the American form -of republican government, a government of the people, for the people, -by the people, with rule by law and constitution, is the only way of -government and way of life for Americans; who believes that although -a government and system of law and rule and economics isn't perfect, -it is the best one ever attempted by mankind in its long history; who -believes that private enterprise and capitalism is the whole basis of -our way of life and the reason of our way of life--and the reason our -way of life is so richly endowed; who believes that communism is the -greatest threat to the existence and freedom of America and must be -completely defeated; who believes there can be no peace without victory -over communism; who believes that the true revolutionary political -system and the true revolution of mankind is the American democracy and -democratic and political system; that the enslavement of man embodied -in communism is as old as mankind itself, and therefore there is -nothing revolutionary about it, even though it has a modern name and -foundation and is certainly no good, indeed fatal, to mankind. - -Is CUSA identified with any other organization or society? CUSA is -associated with no organization or group, be it political, economic, -social, fraternal, or religious. CUSA is committed to none, either. - -I can interject a footnote of my own at this point. At council sessions -we decided to use whatever vehicles were necessary in the way of other -organizations to get CUSA off the ground and at the same time keep the -name CUSA secret among ourselves, as it was our organization, you might -say; no one of the other organizations that we became involved with -knew anything about the existence of CUSA or what we had planned to do -with it. They did not know, the individuals that we were concerned with -did not know, that in many cases, as a matter of fact, we were using -them merely as a vehicle to further the interest of CUSA. - -Just who does CUSA hope to elect President? - -I want to reiterate that this was prepared in late 1961 or very early -1962. - -CUSA considers Senator Barry Goldwater (Republican, Arizona) as -Mr. Conservative, U.S.A., and wholeheartedly endorses him for the -Presidency, although CUSA is not committed to Mr. Goldwater in any way. -However, it is felt that he is by far the most outstanding conservative -politician and spokesman in the country. - -How does CUSA feel about the so-called radical rightwing? CUSA has -proof that many so-called radical organizations are not really -radical or at least as radical as the enemies or opposition of these -organizations would have the public believe. - -CUSA loathes extremism of the right, typified by the American Nazi -Party, as much as it does the extremism of the left, exemplified by the -Communist Party in the U.S.A. - -CUSA does not believe, however, that an American can be too radical or -extreme in his love or patriotism for his country. - -CUSA endorses Americanism, love of country, and patriotism, even if it -does not always agree with what some citizens believe is wrong with -our country, who is to blame for our faults and our solution to our -problems. - -CUSA has faith in and believes in many rightwing organizations and -their endeavors, although it does not always agree with everything they -say or do, the words or actions of their leaders. - -On the other hand, CUSA does not condemn a patriot who, in the heat -of anger or frustration, says things which are irresponsible and not -honestly meant. On the other hand, CUSA cannot subscribe to continued -irresponsibility on the part of organizations, its leaders or -membership. - -This is one reason, for example, recently in Dallas, we decided not to -become, at least as far as we knew, to become involved with anybody -associated or doing business with General Walker, as an example. We -made it a point to try to stay clear of that. - -How does CUSA feel about communism? CUSA intends to do everything -it can to destroy communism. CUSA is against any philosophy, any -organization, any group, any individual which threatens the freedom, -way of life, or congressional government of the United States. - -CUSA is against any tyranny, whatever its skin or title; against -anything indecent, unlawful, or harmful to man. - -Can anyone join CUSA? Any citizen of the United States who believes in -what CUSA is trying to do and who is not a demagog or dishonest, may -join CUSA regardless of race, religion, creed, or ethnic origin. CUSA -does not believe that patriotism is contingent upon skin, color, or -religion or family background. - -Let me say again that this was prepared in 1961, and in its essence has -been followed through to the--up until the 22d of November 1963, and -this, I think, would give some reasons or give you several answers as -to why the ad was placed, why it read as it did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That completes the statement? - -Mr. WEISSMAN. That completes my statement. - -Mr. EISENBERG. OK; then we will stand adjourned. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF WARREN ALLEN REYNOLDS - -The testimony of Warren Allen Reynolds was taken at 3:35 p.m., on July -22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an -attorney on the staff of the President's Commission to investigate the -assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your -testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by -President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, -and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. - -Under the rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony, you -are entitled to have an attorney present at this hearing. You are -also entitled to 3 days' notice for the hearing, and you are entitled -to exercise whatever rights and privileges, as far as not answering -questions are concerned, as are afforded to you under the Constitution -and laws of the United States. I assume that you do not wish to have an -attorney present, since you don't have one here. Most of the witnesses -do not have. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Warren Allen Reynolds. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. 8707 Mosswood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, Mr. Reynolds? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. June 22, 1935. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed here in Dallas? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; Reynolds Motor Co. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of company is that? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. It is a used-car lot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It is operated by you and by your brother; is that -correct? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. It is operated by my brother, and I am an employee there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not an owner of the corporation? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are employed by your brother? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us briefly what your educational -background is? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. High school. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you graduate from high school here in Dallas? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which school? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Forest Avenue High School. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where is this Reynolds Motor Co. located? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. 500 East Jefferson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How far is that from the corner of 10th and Patton? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. One block. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at the used-car lot on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at about, say, after the hour of 12 -o'clock noon in the afternoon? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you saw; will you, please? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. OK; our office is up high where I can have a pretty -good view of what was going on. I heard the shots and, when I heard -the shots, I went out on this front porch which is, like I say, high, -and I saw this man coming down the street with the gun in his hand, -swinging it just like he was running. He turned the corner of Patton -and Jefferson, going west, and put the gun in his pants and took off, -walking. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I really have no idea, to be honest with you. I would say -four or five or six. I just would have no idea. I heard one, and then I -heard a succession of some more, and I didn't see the officer get shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Very good. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequent to that time, you were questioned by the -Dallas Police Department, were you not? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department never talked to you about -the man that you saw going down the street? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Now, they talked to me much later, you mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. OK; let me put it this way: When is the first time that -anybody from any law-enforcement agency, and I mean by that, the FBI, -Secret Service, Dallas Police Department, Dallas County sheriff's -office; you pick it. When is the first time that they ever talked to -you? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. January 21. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the first time they ever talked to you about what -you saw on that day? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you never in any way identified this man in the police -department or any other authority, either in November or in December of -1963; is that correct? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I sure didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it can be in no way said that you "fingered" the man -who was running down the street, and identified him as the man who was -going around and putting the gun in his pocket? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. It can be said I didn't talk to the authorities. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything about it to anybody else? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to identify this man in your own mind? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did identify him as Lee Harvey Oswald in your own -mind? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no question about it? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show -you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you -if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of -November as you have already told us. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You later identified that man as Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. In my mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your mind, that is what I mean. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw his picture in the newspaper and on -television? Is that right? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; unless you have somebody that looks an awful lot -like him there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you an exhibit that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit -No. 453-C and ask you if that is the same man, in your opinion? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were in no way, if I understand it correctly then, -properly identified as anyone who had told the authorities that this -man that was going down the street was the same man as Lee Harvey -Oswald, is that correct? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, yes and no. When it happened, and after I seen--and -you probably know what I did--after I saw the man on the corner of -Patton and Jefferson, I followed him up the street behind the service -station and lost him. I went back there and looked up and down the -alley and didn't see him, and looked through the cars and still didn't -see him. - -Then the police got there, and they took my name. While they were -taking my name, some television camera got me, and I was on television, -I am sure nationwide. Then some man that I worked with wanted to be big -time, I guess, so he called some radio station and told them what I had -done, and they recorded that and ran it over and over and over again -over the radio station. And other than that, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, what was it that they said you had done? All you -had done was try to follow this man and he got away from you? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. And he got away. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you went back and you looked around for him around -the car lot in the area and you weren't able to find him? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I looked through the parking lot for him after. See, when -he went behind the service station, I was right across the street, -and when he ducked behind, I ran across the street and asked this man -which way he went, and they told me the man had gone to the back. And I -ran back there and looked up and down the alley right then and didn't -see him, and I looked under the cars, and I assumed that he was still -hiding there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In the parking lot? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Even to this day I assume that he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was this parking lot located now? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. It would be at the back of the Texaco station that is on -the corner of Crawford and Jefferson where they found his coat. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They found his coat in the parking lot? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. They found his coat there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that he had apparently gone through the parking lot? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And gone down the alley or something back to Jefferson -Street? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. When the police got there, and they were all there, -I was trying to assure them that he was still there close. This was all -a bunch of confusion. They didn't know what was going on. And they got -word that he was down at a library which was about 3 blocks down the -street on the opposite side of the street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Down Jefferson? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Down Jefferson. And every one of them left to go there. -So when they left, well, I did too, and I didn't know this man had shot -a policeman. I wouldn't probably be near as brave if I had known that. -The next time, I guarantee, I won't be as brave. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; I can't say that I blame you, although we don't know -there is any connection. But we would certainly like to find it, if -there is. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. There is no connection that you can prove now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to that a little bit at a time. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Okay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you were on television, what was shown is that you -were talking to the policeman? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. They were taking my name. No name was shown, was -mentioned. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They were just taking down your name? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Just my name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When it was told on the radio about your involvement in -it, was it also made clear that you had not, in fact, directed--let me -ask the question this way. Was it ever stated either on the television -or the radio that you had directed the police to the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Not the direction. In the general direction, but not to -the theatre. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were looking for this man who later turned -out to be Oswald, in this parking lot which was some distance from the -Texas Theatre at that point? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw Oswald continue on down the street--on -down Jefferson or go in the Texas Theatre, and you never told the -police that he had gone in that direction, did you? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I told the police he was going in that direction. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was going--you told the police he went into the -parking lot, or what did you tell him? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That he was going west. I told them that he was going -west, and I had assumed that he just cut through the parking lot and -kept going the general direction he was going in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he hadn't gotten to Jefferson by the time you had -seen him? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. He was about almost half a block before he -got to Jefferson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But he was heading toward Jefferson? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; he was heading toward Jefferson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after he got to Jefferson? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. When he got to Jefferson, that is when I followed -him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he went which way? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Went down Jefferson, and then he went behind the station, -and that is when I lost him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He went around behind the station, and there was a -parking lot back there, is that right? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went back in the parking lot and you were looking for -him there, but you never saw him again after he ducked off Jefferson -into the parking lot? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Just on television. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then according to the information that I have, on January -23, 1964, you were shot in the head by a bullet from a 22 caliber -rifle, is that correct? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; right there [pointing to right temple]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the right side of your head? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; and it went to here [pointing to left ear]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances in which that -happened? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I know this man was waiting for 3-1/2 hours in a basement -where I work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In a car lot? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. In a car lot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the car lot? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. At the car lot, the Johnny Reynolds Co. And when I went -down to turn off the lights in this basement where he had taken the -light globe out of the room, I went in there more or less in the dark -to turn off the light. It is a switchboard, and when I walked up to it -and turned two switches, this man couldn't hardly have been over a foot -from me with the rifle, and shot me. - -When he shot me, I ran upstairs. I went around to the right about 20 -feet and got this towel to, of course, stop the blood, and when I -turned around to go call the police, I had assumed all the time that I -had been electrocuted for some silly reason, never dreaming I had been -shot. But when I saw the man run off, I figured right then I must have -been shot, so I ran on in and called the police. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see the man run off? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. When I ran upstairs and ran around to the right to get -this towel, and he came up out of the basement. I saw him and two more -people saw him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You then got the towel. Did you call the police? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I was able to call the police. Then I laid down just -for a few minutes, and the ambulance got there and carried me to the -hospital, and by some miracle, I survived, very much a miracle. The -police got the call at 9:19 p.m. in the evening of January 23. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now were you able to identify the individual who ran up -out of the basement? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea who it was? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of fellow did he look like? Did you get a -physical description of him? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No; it was just a blur to me. It was just a blur, but the -people that saw him said he was around 5 foot 4, weight around 130 or -140 pounds, and was either Spanish or Cuban or Indian or something like -that; not Negro. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He was not a Negro, but he was of a foreign extraction or -foreign appearing, or dark colored? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; dark colored, the way they described him. He had a -rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea as to why somebody might have wanted -to take a shot at you, why did they? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I have no proof. I would say it would be fair to think -that somebody shot me on account of they thought I knew something or -had some connection with Lee Oswald. It was definitely not people that -I would know of, and it hadn't been business. I am sure it wasn't in -business form. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do in the car lot? Are you engaged actually -in selling and trading automobiles? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; generally everything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You can't think of any reason why one of your customers -wanted to take a shot at you? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anybody else around the company that might -have been having trouble with anybody else that maybe you got shot by -mistake, or something like that? Is that possible? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. We ruled that out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You considered that possibility? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I have considered everything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the police conduct an investigation of this? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of this shooting? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, they came out with a suspect, didn't they? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. They came out with one, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that individual before he was picked up in -connection with this investigation? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you know him? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I had known him for about 6 or 7 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of yours? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to know him? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Just in business. Our business with him was bad business. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In what sense? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, he was a troublemaker. But at no time did I think -he was the one that shot me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form an opinion on the question of whether -this was the man who shot you? In fact, we are talking about a man by -the name of Darrell Wayne Garner. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That was just my personal opinion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't able to see the man who shot you to say -whether it was Garner or whether it wasn't? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that Garner had been in the car lot on -January 20, 1964, trying to sell you an automobile, particularly a -1957 Oldsmobile for which he didn't have a title? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Not that I know of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with your brother? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother is Johnny Reynolds? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He lives at 622 West Five Mile Parkway, is that correct? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you to know that on January 23 he -apparently told the Dallas Police Department that Garner had been in -the carlot on January 20 and tried to trade a 1957 Oldsmobile for which -he did not have a title, and became extremely upset when he, Johnny -Reynolds, wouldn't purchase the automobile from Garner? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I had to keep in mind that it is possible that that had -happened and I just didn't, I mean I have been through an awful lot -these 6 months, and it is possible that I have just missed it, but I -would say I would be a little bit surprised. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of person is Garner? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Well, to describe him as best I can, I heard that his -mother had $10 hidden one night and he wanted it and she wouldn't tell -him where it was, and he held a knife to her throat threatening to kill -her unless she did. He is just a complete troublemaker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where he lives? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I heard he was in Las Vegas. In fact, I parked my car -at his father-in-law's. He runs a little parking lot right there down -the street, and it so happened I pulled into that parking lot when I -came here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you haven't seen him around recently? You don't know -where he is? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, Garner was released from the Dallas Police -Department after they conducted an investigation? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Into the possibility he might have been involved in the -shooting of you? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you have any basis for your belief that the shot -at you was somehow connected with the assassination, other than pure -speculation or surmise on your part? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea as to who it might be other than the -fact, as you have previously explained before, it might be that since -your were associated in some way with Oswald's apprehension in the -Texas Theatre, that somebody wanted to get you for that? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. A lot of people thought that I followed him all the way -to the Texas Theatre and pointed him out in the theatre. A lot of -people, just rumors, thought that, and a lot of people still think it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But in fact, there isn't any fact that you can point to -or tell me about that would connect up the assassination in any way -with the shooting of you on January 23? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I can't think of anything that could be a fact unless we -just found the man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For the purpose of our investigation, I mean if there -were any connection between your shooting on January 23 and Oswald's -arrest for the assassination, we want to know about it. That is -perfectly clear, is it not? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I am asking you if you have any facts that would tie it -up. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I have no facts. I just have my own beliefs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you do believe that there is some relation, do you? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Nancy J. Mooney? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of her? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What have you heard? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I heard that she was with Garner the night that I got -shot. I heard that she took a lie detector test that helped free him. I -heard that a few days later she was caught fighting and they put her in -jail, and she hung herself. I heard that she formerly worked for Jack -Ruby as a stripper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who told you that? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I read it in Bob Considine's article. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only source of your information concerning -Nancy J. Mooney? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. The police told me that she had hung herself and that she -was the one that was with Garner. Everybody calls him "Dago." - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did the police department tell you that she had worked -for Jack Ruby? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The only source of information that you have for that is -the article that Bob Considine wrote about this whole thing? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard anything about Nancy J. Mooney, or do -you know anything about her other than that which you read in Bob -Considine's newspaper article? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I don't. Well, I know one thing, she was 16, and her -age, that is just what I have heard. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have heard that? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. From the police department. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that she also used the name Betty MacDonald? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I didn't know that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My information is also that she is 24, not 16. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Twenty-four? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that she tried to commit suicide prior -to the time she hung herself in the Dallas Police Station? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or that she had four children that had been taken away -from her because of her conduct? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I see nothing in that whole story that Considine wrote -that would really come to me--be true. - -I mean, it is true in one sense, and it is fair story, but I don't see -any connection there, let's say. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Considine was trying to create an impression that some -girl had worked for Jack Ruby and was connected with Garner, and hung -herself in the police department? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you believe there is any connection in that respect? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you considered, when you thought about this problem, -that there are other people that actually went down to the police -station and viewed Oswald in lineups, and have testified in Washington -before this Commission, and received international publicity in -connection with the identification of Oswald as the murderer of Tippit -and that so far at any rate they have not been attacked in any way such -as you were? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; I have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you suggest to me why you were picked out to be shot -for this reason and not these other people? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. The ones that I know, I am the only aggressor in the -whole bunch. I am the only one that actually did something more than -just look. I actually did something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But that is the only distinction you can see between -yourself and those other people? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this question of the possible -relationship between your shooting and the assassination, with General -Walker? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; I have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say to him and what did he say to you about -this matter, if you remember. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Oh, I said to him basically the same thing that I have -said to you, and he said it could be and he thinks that it's strange -that I was shot. I think anybody would think it strange. But of course, -if you have ever talked to him, he wouldn't say yes or no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does General Walker know of any facts, so far as you -know, that would relate your shooting to the assassination? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He has never expressed a firm opinion to you one way or -the other as to whether there was in fact, any connection between the -two, has he? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Let me just let him answer that when he talks to you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he is going to talk to us? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know that? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I talked to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to him since we have invited him to come over and -talk to us? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When is the last time you talked to General Walker? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Around noon today. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Talked to him on the telephone? Or in person? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Telephone; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with him your appearance before the -Commission here? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the general subject of your -conversation? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I just don't want to answer that, really. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Preceding your conversation at noon today, when was the -last time you talked to him before that, do you remember, approximately? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. About a week ago. Maybe 2 weeks. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you talked to him about this question -altogether? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I have no idea; five or six. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, General Walker sent a telegram to the -Commission suggesting that we take your testimony, did he not? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You knew that he did? Did he tell you that? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. May I go off the record? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Sure. - -I think I have asked you all the questions I can think of, Mr. -Reynolds, at this point. But I do want to say this to you. If you -can think of anything else that you want the Commission to know in -connection with this whole thing, I want you to feel free to say what -it is right now. Or if you think there are any other facts that relate -to this that we haven't brought out. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I don't know of any. I think it should be investigated -what happened to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department did conduct an investigation -of the attack on you. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. But their investigation didn't go too much past Garner. -I mean they questioned a lot of people, but not anything of any -importance. They have a little old bullet. I believe that is the only -clue that they have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you think we -ought to know and I haven't already asked you about, we can terminate -the deposition at this point. - -Mr. REYNOLDS. I would like to say something that might be important. -About 3 weeks after I got out of the hospital, which would be around -the 20th of February, my little 10-year-old daughter--somebody tried to -pick her up, tried to get her in a car. - -Now, again, whether that has any connection or not, I don't know, but -it did happen, and it never had happened before nor after. But they -even offered her money. She was smart enough to run and get away. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any other indication that anybody has been -following you or that anybody is watching you or anything like that? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Someone unscrewed my light globe one night on the front -porch of my house, and someone definitely did it. - -Whether it was a jokester or kid, but I have a lamp over the light. -They had to take three screws loose to get to my light globe. They took -those off and unscrewed my light, and that is for sure. Now, that was -around the 20th of February, too. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was after you had gotten out of the hospital? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that would lead you to think -anybody has been looking for you or looking after you? - -Mr. REYNOLDS. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Reynolds. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF PRISCILLA MARY POST JOHNSON - -The testimony of Priscilla Mary Post Johnson, was taken at 10:25 a.m., -on July 25, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by -Messrs. W. David Slawson and Richard M. Mosk, assistant counsel of the -President's Commission. - - -Mr. SLAWSON. I will swear you in if you will rise? Do you swear to tell -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Miss JOHNSON. I do. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, would you please state your full name and -address? - -Miss JOHNSON. My full name is Priscilla Mary Post Johnson, 48 Brattle -Street, Cambridge, Mass. - -Mr. SLAWSON. And would you state for the record your occupation or -activities now and also what they were in 1959 when you saw Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Miss JOHNSON. In 1959 I was a Moscow correspondent for the North -American Newspaper Alliance, and now I am a freelance writer on Soviet -affairs. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Have you been given a copy of the Executive order and the -joint resolution authorizing the creation of this Commission? - -Miss JOHNSON. I have. - -Mr. SLAWSON. And an opportunity to read them? - -Miss JOHNSON. I have. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson has been asked to testify this morning -because she in the course of her duties as a newspaper correspondent -in 1959 interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald on at least one occasion while -he was in Moscow, just after he had announced to the American Embassy -that he wanted to renounce his American citizenship and become a Soviet -citizen. She is going to describe to the best of her recollection, -with the help of her notes taken at the time, what went on during that -interview. Miss Johnson, first I think we will put in as exhibits the -various notes you have taken and articles you have written since that -time, about your interview with Mr. Oswald. I present you a copy, -marked Johnson Exhibit No. 1, of the notes you have said were taken at -that time, and I wonder if you would acknowledge that that is a true -copy. - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes; it is. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 1 was marked for -identification.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. I present this as Exhibit No. 1, introduce it in evidence -as Exhibit No. 1. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 1 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I have marked this as Exhibit No. 2. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 2 was marked for -identification.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. It purports to be a true copy of the article you wrote of -your interview with Mr. Oswald, and submitted on November 18, 1959. - -Miss JOHNSON. That is right. I submitted it to the Soviet censor on -November 18. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I submit this in evidence and mark it as Exhibit No. 2. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 2 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. MOSK. Miss Johnson, was anything censored? - -Miss JOHNSON. No. It would show on that. Nothing was censored. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I now show you a document marked Exhibit No. 3 which -purports to be a true copy of an article you wrote for the Boston Globe. - -Miss JOHNSON. I wrote it for the North American Newspaper Alliance. -That just happens to be one place that it appeared. It probably -appeared in other places too. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 3 was marked for -identification.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. Then I will say your article---- - -Miss JOHNSON. For the North American Newspaper Alliance. - -Mr. SLAWSON. As it appeared in the---- - -Miss JOHNSON. As it appeared in the Boston Globe. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I believe that was on November 24, 1963? - -Miss JOHNSON. Sunday. November 24. It was filed on November 22. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Except for possible deletions of your complete article as -it was submitted, is that a true copy of your article? - -Miss JOHNSON. A true copy of my article. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I present this in evidence as Exhibit No. 3. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 3 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. I now have a document marked Exhibit No. 4 which is an -article from the--a copy of an article from the Christian Science -Monitor of November 25, 1963. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 4 was marked for -identification.) - -Miss JOHNSON. The interview was given November 23, and that is a true -copy of the interview as published in the Monitor. - -Mr. SLAWSON. For the record, Miss Johnson, that is an interview of you -by a correspondent working for the Christian Science Monitor; is that -correct? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I then introduce it in evidence as Exhibit No. 4. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 4 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I have here what purports to be a true copy -of a statement you gave to a representative of the U.S. Department of -State on December 5, 1963, and it has been marked Priscilla Johnson -Exhibit No. 5. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 5 was marked for -identification.) - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes; that is okay. That is a copy. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I then introduce in evidence this Exhibit No. 5. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 5 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. Finally, I have here a document marked Priscilla Johnson -Exhibit No. 6, which purports to be a true copy of an article written -by you as published in Harper's magazine. - -Miss JOHNSON. April 1964. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Right; in the April 1964 issue. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 6 was marked for -identification.) - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. SLAWSON. That is a true copy? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I introduce as evidence, present this as Exhibit No. 6. - -(Priscilla Mary Post Johnson Exhibit No. 6 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, to begin the deposition, I would like you to -state, with the help of your notes or articles at any time you want to -refer to them, exactly when and where and how many times you saw Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Miss JOHNSON. May I have the calendar. I saw him, Lee Harvey Oswald, -on two occasions. First of all I had been at the American Embassy in -Moscow, and Mr. McVickar, the consul, had told me that a would-be -defector was staying at my hotel, that he had shown a reluctance to -talk with officials of the Embassy or with other correspondents, but -knowing my interest in kind of human interest stories, he thought that -I might want to see this man. This was on an afternoon in November, and -I think it must have been Monday, November 16, 1959, that Mr. McVickar -advised me to see Mr. Oswald. So I stopped by Mr. Oswald's room, which -was the floor below my own room in the Metropole Hotel. He lived on the -second floor. I asked him for an interview, and he agreed to come to my -room in the hotel that evening at an hour he named. I forgot what hour -it was--8 or 9. So the second occasion on which I saw him was when he -actually came that evening, and he stayed until the early hours of the -morning, although I don't remember what hour. So far as I know, those -were the only two occasions on which I saw him. - -Mr. SLAWSON. He was in the same hotel you were staying in? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. Could I interpolate a question here? - -Mr. SLAWSON. Certainly. - -Miss JOHNSON. Maybe it is out of line, but do you know whether he did -stay at that hotel the rest of the time or did he go and leave? You see -when I went back they had said he left. Had he actually gone to another -hotel or did he remain in that hotel all the time? - -Mr. SLAWSON. I believe that he was staying in the Hotel Metropole at -the time you saw him, and I think he stayed there---- - -Miss JOHNSON. The rest of the time? - -Mr. SLAWSON. The rest of the time. He had previously been in, I think, -the Hotel Berlin, but he had moved to the Metropole before you saw him. - -Miss JOHNSON. And they did move him out of the Berlin? - -Mr. SLAWSON. That is right. - -Miss JOHNSON. He stayed in the Metropole? - -Mr. SLAWSON. Stayed in the Metropole. - -Miss JOHNSON. So I was informed incorrectly when I was told he had gone -by the people at the hotel? - -Mr. SLAWSON. Do you remember when you were informed that he had gone? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. I think that it was Thursday, the 19th. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Could you state some of the details of that, how that came -about that you were so informed? - -Miss JOHNSON. Sure. Well, I wrote the story about him. I must have -filed it on the 18th, but I don't think it was in connection with the -story but with rather the fact that I had been told by him that he -thought he would leave the hotel at the end of the week. So as soon -as I had written the story and wasn't too busy in other ways, I went -to the hotel. The woman who sat on his floor, the second floor, and I -think it was the 19th, a Thursday, I asked if Mr. Oswald was there, -because I wanted to catch him before he left. I expected he would leave -the 20th. And because I kind of wanted to keep in contact with him, for -his sake. And the woman who was sitting on the second floor--I don't -know what you call her--who gave the keys out, just threw up her hands -and said, "He is gone." So I asked her when he had gone, and she said -she didn't know. So I assumed I had been informed correctly, and didn't -try to get in touch with him again. And he had told me that he would -let me know before he left for good, and he didn't either. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Let us call a recess for a minute here, so that I can look -for some records on Oswald's stay at the Hotel Metropole. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, in connection with your statement that you -had returned to see Oswald and were told by a woman employee of the -hotel on the second floor that he had left at a time which she did not -know, I have here a copy of a letter Oswald wrote his brother Robert -Oswald dated November 26, 1959 (Commission Exhibit No. 295). At the -bottom of the letter he gives his address as "Hotel Metropole, Room -201, Moscow," with the marking, "(New Room)." - -Miss JOHNSON. His room when I saw him was, I think it was room 225. It -was down a corridor to the right. My room was 319, on the next floor. -You turned just a little to the left to get to it. His was about 225 or -something like that. So he had probably been moved to a cheaper room. -My room would probably have had the same rent as his--$3 a day--but -later his was maybe a little bit less. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I see. And would the woman employee of the hotel who told -you that Mr. Oswald had gone have had charge only of the old corridor -and not the corridor with room 201 in it? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; I think she would have had charge of his new room -too, but he would have entered it possibly from the other side of the -landing. I rather forget where the 01 was, but he might have entered it -rather than from her desk turning right and then going down a corridor -and then turning left. He might have taken his key from her and gone -off to the left from her desk and from the elevator. She would have -had charge of his room, but she might have been on duty for the first -time since he moved, and only been aware that he had left--she might -not have been trying to mislead me. It might have been her first day on -duty since he switched his room, and she might have seen he wasn't in -225 and not realized that he was on the same floor but in another room. - -I think the key thing is they probably gave him a very inexpensive -room, since they were paying or since he was very poor. They perhaps -accommodated him in allowing him to switch rooms. - -Mr. SLAWSON. You mentioned a minute ago that he might have taken -his key from her. You mean by that that ordinarily--or rather, -frequently--a hotel guest would leave his key with the woman on his -floor, but that it was possible to carry the key with you so that you -would not have to pick it up from her? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; customarily you pick it up from her when you go to -your room and you leave it with her when you leave your room. It is -simply that she would have had a book in which she had written down the -room number of every guest, and I think each morning changes would be -recorded there. My guess is that she rather than consciously misleading -me--although she could have been told to say he was out, was gone--that -there is a very good chance that she simply had not taken in that he -was still there and in another room. - -He would have left his key though, and customarily she would have -always asked him for the key when he left. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did Oswald say something to you which would have led you -to believe that he was interested in getting a less expensive room at -the hotel? - -Miss JOHNSON. He struck me as notably reticent about his finances, -about his financial situation. He told me, truthfully or otherwise; -that he had been there for 10 days on Intourist. He said he was paying -the standard room and food rate, and said "I want to make it clear -they are not sponsoring me." I must have asked him about his financial -situation in some detail, because I thought it would give a clue as to -how they were handling him. If they had allowed him to go from the $30 -a day rate, that is the rate if you come Intourist which he said he was -on, if they allowed him to go from $30 to a lesser sum, since mine was -$3, that would indicate that they had an interest in him and they were -seeking to help him, whether he knew it or not. - -And he was defensive. He bristled on the point, and I assume that there -was more of an exchange of words than I took notes of, and that there -was something there. I just didn't know what it was, and I couldn't get -it out of him. - -But when you say he switched from 225 to 201, 225 was an outside room, -the kind that foreigners have, and it would probably be bugged, and it -would be for foreign guests coming in on Intourist. I don't remember -room 201, but the chances are it was an inside room. It might have been -very small. It might or might not have had a bath attached to it, and -the rate for it could have been as low as $1.50 a day. And they could -have been either accommodating him because of their interest in him, or -because they were simply responding to his financial situation while -pending a decision on his request to stay. - -Mr. SLAWSON. While we are on this subject--how much he was paying for -his hotel room and his finances generally--I am not clear whether you -were able to get some kind of indication out of him whether he was -paying the $30 a day or simply the lower, something like $3 a day. - -Miss JOHNSON. You see he said he had been there since 10 days--perhaps -what he said was since being there for 10 days on Intourist at $30 -a day "I have been paying the standard room and food rate." That is -probably how I should read my own notes. - -"I want to make it clear they are not sponsoring me." Your question is? - -Mr. SLAWSON. I am trying to establish what your impression was at the -time of how much he was paying for that hotel room. - -Miss JOHNSON. At the time I was very unclear what he was paying. I -think now he must have been paying $30 for the 10 days after his -arrival in October, and $3 a day after that until he left room 225. -What he was paying when he moved into room 201 I don't know. - -Mr. MOSK. That was $30 a day the first 10 days? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes, $300 for the first 10 days. Probably after that $3 a -day, and after that I don't know. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Are meals included in that $30 a day? - -Miss JOHNSON. Meals are included, but they wouldn't have been included -once he went off it. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I realize you can only do this very approximately but if -one were eating fairly inexpensively as Oswald probably did---- - -Miss JOHNSON. And as I did. - -Mr. SLAWSON. But on the other hand he probably did not know much about -the city of Moscow, and so could not hunt out places that might be -inexpensive. But how much per day do you think he could get along on -for meals? - -Miss JOHNSON. Perhaps I could just tell you from my own experience. -I had a one-burner stove and I bought some food at the Embassy -commissary, some from the hotel, and some in the stores around, and -my total living expenses probably didn't exceed $50 a week, and my -room would have been $21, and taxis would have been a little bit. So -probably I could have done it on $15, and he without the stove and -without the use of the commissary, but having probably modest tastes, -he could have done it for somewhere between $10 and $25 a week foodwise. - -He did tell me that he had only been on one expedition by himself to -this children's store where he got some food at the buffet, and if that -is an indication that he was taking all his meals at the Metropole, -then it would have cost him $25 to $30 a week for food at least. - -Mr. MOSK. He generally didn't eat breakfast, or he generally ate very -little for breakfast. Would this make a difference? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. MOSK. It might reduce it? - -Miss JOHNSON. Because breakfast, coffee alone was very cheap. We had -old rubles then, and I think it was--the figure in my mind is 2-1/2 -old rubles, which is 25 cents, for coffee in the room, and they didn't -charge you anything for room service. That would have been cheap, -and soup was very nourishing and that was cheap. I think he knew his -Intourist guide pretty well, and she may have taken him home and given -him food, or shown him cheap places to eat, so that when he said his -only expedition himself, that could mean that he took literally himself -but it could be he went other places with her, inexpensively. So he -could have done pretty well. He could have kept it pretty low. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I don't think that we established clearly -before when, or rather what day it was, when you spoke to John McVickar -and later spoke to Lee Harvey Oswald and had your interview with him. - -Miss JOHNSON. I believe I spoke to John McVickar either on Friday, -November 13, or Monday, November 16. My recollection is that it was -Monday, the 16th, and that on coming home from the Embassy, coming to -the Metropole, I went straight to Oswald's room, and therefore that -would have placed my original conversation with McVickar on the 16th, -my interview with Oswald probably on the 16th, my writing of the story -and my second conversation with McVickar on the 17th, and my filing -of the story on the 18th. But I could have seen Oswald as late as the -17th; Tuesday, the 17th. I could have seen Oswald as late as Tuesday, -the 17th. My interview was the 16th or the 17th. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Fine. Miss Johnson, I have here a copy of Commission -Exhibit No. 911, which is a memorandum for the files dated November -17, 1959, written by Mr. John A. McVickar of the American Embassy -in Moscow. This is the same John McVickar which you and I have been -discussing and to whom you spoke about Lee Harvey Oswald some time just -before you saw Mr. Oswald. - -I hand you a copy of Exhibit No. 911 and would like you to take some -time to read it and comment on your opinion of its accuracy, and make -any corrections you like. It purports to record a discussion that you -had with Mr. McVickar about Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes; firstly he says that I told him that I had seen -Oswald Sunday, May 15. He would have meant here Sunday, November 15. My -recollection is that it was a Monday night that I spoke with Oswald, -and it would therefore be Monday, November 16, not May. - -Mr. MOSK. 1959? - -Miss JOHNSON. 1959. Yes; I was struck by Oswald's reserve, and that -comes out in the memo. I had forgotten, but I recollect, and it is not -in my notes but I recollect that it is true that he said he had never -talked so long about himself to anybody, that about his use of words -struck me very much in conversation, that he sometimes pronounced a -particular word correctly and later pronounced it incorrectly, and that -simple words he sometimes mispronounced and hard ones he got right. - -Mr. MOSK. He was speaking in English? - -Miss JOHNSON. Oh, yes; his emphasis on legality, I had the impression -that unconsciously he wasn't 100-percent behind what he was doing, -that he wanted to get out of it and he left a loophole and that the -scapegoat was the Embassy. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I would like to ask a question on that. You think then -that he may have at least unconsciously had reservations right at that -time that he was not doing the right thing? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes; and I think this is implicit in the interview and -it corresponds with my recollection. It says here, "it was her opinion -that he might consciously or not have been trying to leave a loophole -for himself." - -I felt that in making such a scapegoat of the Embassy and of Mr. -Snyder, he was leaving himself a reason not to go back to the Embassy, -and hence not to really renounce his citizenship, and that impressed me -even then, and I think that didn't come out in my story and it doesn't -come out in my notes, but it does correspond with my recollection. - -I felt he was using his annoyance at the Embassy for other reasons. It -was a pretext, although I didn't think it was conscious. And I did bore -in on whether the Embassy had given him two versions, that is, whether -they had said they were too busy, or whether there was legal grounds -that they couldn't allow him to renounce citizenship until he had -assurance of Soviet citizenship. - -I was just interested in resolving the discrepancies, because I wanted -to clarify the nature of the loophole he was leaving himself, rather -really than to put the Embassy on the spot. And also I wanted to get -the Embassy's role straight because I didn't know how fully in my story -to put his annoyance at Snyder, the consul. I wanted to be clear on -what he was doing, before writing about his annoyance with Snyder. - -Mr. MOSK. Do you think, Miss Johnson, that he had any knowledge of the -law of expatriation? - -Miss JOHNSON. My recollection of him was that he was very legally -minded. He showed me his letters from the Embassy, his exchange of -letters from the Embassy, and that is in the notes, that he claimed -they were acting illegally. He showed me the text of these letters -and asked me what I thought of them. He said that he had been told on -Saturday, October 31, that is a Saturday, that they needed time to get -the papers together. - -Mr. MOSK. But do you think that he had ever read a book of statutes or -did he give you that impression, that somebody had told him about the -law or that he had read the law? - -Miss JOHNSON. He claimed that they were acting illegally, and I am not -at all sure that he didn't also indicate that he had a right, that he -knew he had a right. I am not sure that he didn't say that they had -told him at the Embassy that they wanted some assurance that he had -Soviet citizenship, but actually I believe that this was more what -I gathered from talking to Mr. Snyder and Mr. McVickar, that they -actually wanted to give him time to think. - -Somewhere I got the idea that he had also been told that they wanted -assurance that he had Soviet citizenship, before letting him renounce -American citizenship. Where I got the impression, I think it was from -him, but I am not sure. Yes; my guess about him is that he would feel -that he knew the law. Whether he would have seen it or been told it by -somebody that he thought knew the law, he would have informed himself -or thought he was informed about his legal rights. He seemed very stuck -on the importance of legality, legalism. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I am going to now back up a bit and ask you -some questions about the general atmosphere in Moscow, quite apart from -Lee Harvey Oswald. I make reference here to Exhibit No. 5, which we -introduced just a minute ago. On the first page of that exhibit, which -is your statement to the Department of State, you mention that most of -the defectors who came to Moscow while you were a correspondent there -came because of personal troubles they were having at home, rather than -reasons of ideology. - -You also bring up the fact that, rather your belief that, the Russians -had wanted one or two defectors from the U.S. exhibition of 1959 to -counter the negative propaganda they had been suffering from the -frequent defections of East bloc persons to the West. I wonder if you -would comment about both those points? First, if you could give us a -description of approximately how many American defectors you either -knew or had knowledge of at that time? - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, I heard about most of those who came through, -though I didn't necessarily interview them. There had been one called -Webster--Richard Webster, I think--from the fair, and he had had a job -in Ohio. He worked at the fair. I don't know what he did. At the end -of the fair he asked to stay. That was, say, September or so of 1959. -We had defectors on the brain right then in Moscow, all of us, because -there had been a great deal of travel. The result was that a lot of -tourists were there; there were an unusually large number. That is to -say there had been three defectors. And Webster, now, when you did -go into it, it developed that he wasn't too happy with his wife and -he was interested in a waitress at the Hotel Ukraine. There had been -another one named Petrulli--Nicholas Petrulli. I have forgotten the -circumstances, but again they were personal, and I think he changed his -mind. I think my colleague, Mr. Korengold, supported him, really, while -he was thinking it over and deciding not to do it. - -That is as far as I can remember. Those were better known cases that I -didn't bother with because I couldn't compete with the agencies. And -the Oswald case I did see because Mr. McVickar said he was refusing to -talk to journalists. So I thought that it might be an exclusive, for -one thing, and he was right in my hotel, for another. But then, once -I got talking to him, I realized right away that he was different. At -least I found him interesting at the time. Afterward I thought he was -very interesting. - -I don't remember the Petrulli case; it was probably after the Oswald -case, and then there were a couple named Block--Morris Block and Mrs. -Block. I one day encountered Mrs. Block on the third floor of my hotel, -sitting talking with the woman who gave out the keys. She was quite -a forthcoming lady who talked far more about herself than she should -have, since they couldn't have wanted any publicity right then about -themselves. So I knew about the Blocks, too. - -Mr. MOSK. They also came back? - -Miss JOHNSON. They did come back this year, lately. But I didn't know -too much about the Blocks. There was something else about the Blocks. -Maybe they had some connection with the Soviet Union. Maybe he had -been there before. There was some reason about the Blocks. Anyway, I -couldn't get to interview them. That was the crux of the matter. So -that Oswald was the only--and there was something that made me think -the Blocks were not pure ideological, that they had some connections -with Russia as such, although I may be quite mistaken. - -Mr. SLAWSON. You mean possibly some business or personal connection -that would give them a tie? - -Miss JOHNSON. Right. - -Mr. SLAWSON. That would be different, quite apart from the ideology of -Communist Russia? - -Miss JOHNSON. I had the feeling that perhaps Mr. Block had been in the -Soviet Union before, perhaps in the service during war or that they -were of Russian ancestry, something of that kind, which took away from -any ideological features. - -Here Oswald was of an age that made him different right away. He was -only 20, and I had never heard of anybody of that age in the first -place, or that generation, taking an ideological interest to the point -where he would defect. His age made him extraordinary. - -Somebody of his generation reminded me right away of the 1930's, and I -lived in the hotel where I heard stories about the kind of defectors -who came in the 1930's; that is, they had been ideological. They had -come for reasons of race or sex; women desirous of emancipation, the -American women; Negroes desirous of thinking that here is a country -where Negroes were treated equally; people of leftist views; and among -the press corps I was aware that most of the Western press corps or -much of it were fellow traveling or Communist, and I read quite a bit -about them. - -Mr. MOSK. This is during the thirties? - -Mr. SLAWSON. During the 1930's? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. Malcolm Muggeridge, Eugene Lyons, Louis Fischer. And -I would gather these tales, because I was interested in them. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. Do you want to add something to what you have previously -said? - -Miss JOHNSON. The ones we have are Malcolm Muggeridge, Eugene Lyons, -Louis Fischer, Walter Duranty. These were famous cases of people -who had a great interest in communism, and the Soviet Union in some -ways was the promised land to them. Mr. Lyons later titled a book -"Assignment in Utopia." Our press corps was not at all like that. We -were mostly there because Moscow was a great place to make a name and -a career, and we ranged from very interested, like me, to downright -disenchanted, you know. We were all pretty anti and skeptical, and we -were there because it was good for our careers rather than because we -were interested in communism or because we thought it was the promised -land, and that was always striking to me, because I often heard stories -about the thirtys, and I really thought it sounded very exciting -then. And he was the one person who seemed to have nineteen-thirtyish -reasons, unemployment in the United States, economic difficulty, racial -inequalities, interest in communism. So I thought sometime I would like -to write an article about how the kind of newspaper people and the kind -of defectors who really came now reflected what happened to the Soviet -Union compared to the thirtys, going back to Muggeridge's memoirs, -Lyons, Fischer's memoirs, Duranty's memoirs, and what other people had -said about Duranty to show what happened to the Soviet Union itself. It -didn't attract people now for ideological reasons. - -It was a bourgeois country like any other, and if it attracted people -from the West it was because they wanted to make it their career; it -had become a career for foreigners; or because they were personal -malcontents. - -They weren't getting along with their wives. It was the strangest kind -of reason. Oswald was the exception that proved the rule. And I had -made notes about him in the interim, when I thought of him, because of -this. He was the exception who proved the rule because he purported to -be acting for ideological reasons. - -Whenever I thought about him I thought: What is behind these professed -reasons? They are really emotional reasons in his case, too, and I -don't understand, although it is not obvious like a wife he is leaving, -they are still emotional reasons, and I don't know what is behind his -professed ideological reasons. And I can't guess. So he was the pin -really for the piece, and I couldn't guess them. If I had known he -was back in the States--I had thought about him, it seems to me, as -recently as 3 weeks before the assassination, and wondered, and the way -that the thought used to come to me was, "I wonder what ever happened -to that little Lee Oswald?" And had I known he was back--I thought he -would have been disenchanted, trapped in Russia, unable to get out--if -I had known he was back I probably would have tried to see him, write -him, go to see him. And if I had been able to figure out his reasons -and what happened to him, maybe I could have written that piece. - -Mr. MOSK. You had no indication that people could not leave the Soviet -Union? - -Miss JOHNSON. Oh, yes; I did. I had plenty of indication that they -couldn't leave, and I didn't assume for a second that he had ever left -or gotten out, and I wanted, if I could, to help him, warn him subtly -that he was going to be trapped. That is why I spent so long talking -to him. But I assumed that my room was wired, and I couldn't be obvious -about it, and I tried to do it by talking to him about economics. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Before we get into the actual interview you had with Mr. -Oswald, Miss Johnson, the other comment on the first page of Exhibit -No. 5 which you made was, and I quote: "The Russians had wanted one or -two defectors from the U.S. exhibition of 1959 to counter the negative -propaganda they had been suffering from the more or less frequent -defections of East-bloc persons to the West." Could you first identify -the exhibition you are referring to, and then give the basis for your -statement of what the Russians wanted? - -Miss JOHNSON. Right. I am speaking of the U.S. exhibition at Sokolniki -Park in Moscow that had been opened by Vice President Nixon in July of -1959, which ran for 6 weeks, which brought a great many Americans to -Moscow for periods, fairly long periods of time, in the capacity of -employees of the fair, setting up pavilions, setting up exhibits, some -guides. And I didn't know this, but I had the impression that they had -encouraged Webster to defect. - -I may be quite mistaken about that. Webster was an employee of -the fair, and I thought perhaps they wanted one. That was just an -assumption. Oswald, however, I again bored in quite a bit in my talk -with him as to whether they were encouraging him, and he said they were -neither encouraging or discouraging. He was very anxious as to whether -they were going to let him stay, and this did strike me as a little -unusual. I thought they would encourage it. And I didn't know whether -he was just a very anxious person, hence anxious, or whether they were -keeping him on tenterhooks, not for tactical reasons at all but because -of genuine doubts about having him. My only conclusion could be--it was -at the time--that Nikita Khrushchev just had been to see Eisenhower; -that they were not encouraging defections because of the political -atmosphere. I didn't realize that it might be anything personal about -Oswald. I assumed that it was the atmosphere. - -Mr. SLAWSON. When you first approached Oswald to ask him for an -interview--could you describe that? - -Miss JOHNSON. I knocked on his door, expecting to be let in. But I -wasn't let in. He came out. He came to the door and I stayed in the -hall. He stayed in the doorway as I recall it, and I asked him if he -would let me talk to him; expected he would say no, from what Mr. -McVickar had told me. But he said quite quickly yes, he would come, and -he said he would come to my room. He didn't invite me to his, and he -named an hour for that evening when he would come, and he did come that -evening just at the time he said, and he stayed. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Could you see into his room to see whether he was alone at -that time? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; I had the impression he was alone, but I didn't see -that anyone was there. Had somebody been sitting in his room, I think -I could have seen them. My guess is that his bed would have been out -of sight, but that the chairs in which anybody would have been sitting -with him might have been visible. But he may have had the door open -sufficiently little or at such an angle that I couldn't have seen had -he been alone. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did you know at the time that Miss Aline Mosby, a -newspaper reporter, I believe, for the Associated Press at that time---- - -Miss JOHNSON. For the United Press International. - -Mr. SLAWSON. United Press--had spoken to Oswald several days earlier? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; I had been told he wasn't talking to people, and I -hoped that he hadn't talked to anyone else. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did you ever learn from Oswald that he had spoken to Miss -Mosby earlier? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; I never heard from anyone until after November -the 22d, 1963, although Mr. McVickar had said that I could ask Mr. -Korengold about him. That was a tip that perhaps he had talked to -somebody at UPI, but I didn't want to tip the UPI that I was on to it -because I thought that would reinvigorate their efforts. So I never did -speak to anybody except Mr. McVickar. - -Mr. SLAWSON. While we are back on Mr. McVickar, I don't think we -established for the record absolutely clearly whether there was -anything in Exhibit No. 911 besides the date and the day which you felt -should be corrected? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; not at all. There is a postscript at the bottom -which is dated November 19. So far as I recall, this doesn't reflect -another conversation. It simply reflects an afterthought on the part of -Mr. McVickar, or conceivably a second conversation between me and Mr. -McVickar. He may have asked me more questions, and this may reflect a -little additional. - -Mr. SLAWSON. But it does not reflect a second conversation between you -and Lee Harvey Oswald; is that correct? - -Miss JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I asked you if that was correct? - -Miss JOHNSON. It is correct. It does not reflect a second conversation -with Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Now then, we can get back to your interview with Lee -Harvey Oswald that evening. I have some questions here, but I want -you to feel free to interject any comments of your own at any time. -Of course we have as exhibits many of your previous statements and -articles reflecting your thinking about this before coming here today, -so we can both, I think, confine ourselves to elaborations or possible -corrections or discussions around the points that you have already set -down in the exhibits. The first thing I would like to bring up is a -point you touched upon briefly already in the exhibits, that Oswald -seemed to be greatly concerned with economics, and that you weren't, -and that consequently a great deal of the time in the interview was -taken up you might say with noncommunicative thought, or speech rather. -I wonder if you would define what you mean by economics, and elaborate -on that a little bit? - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, since I liked Mr. Oswald, and since Mr. McVickar -had pointed out to me that there was a narrow line between my duty as a -correspondent and duty as an American, I hoped to establish some kind -of communication with him, although I was really trying to write a -story about him. I went outside my duty in the sense that I did try to -establish some kind of communication. I rather quickly perceived that -the best way to do this was to follow his lead and discuss economics. -That is what interested him more than anything. He wasn't interested -in talking about politics. He hadn't seen enough of Soviet society to -discuss it very concretely, nor was I in a position to point out to him -too much about its shortcomings, because I was a correspondent there, -because my room wasn't a really private place for conversation, and so -I tried really to point out its shortcomings in economic terms which -seemed to be the surest way of reaching him, and it was the subject on -which he had the most interest. - -My notes therefore don't really reflect a great deal of that part of -the conversation, because it meant nothing to me storywise at the time. - -It wasn't what I was going to write about. And I wasn't too interested -in it really. I was just trying to talk with him. And so when I talked -to him, what I said wasn't recorded in the notes, and the gist of his -reply was--of his replies were--that is about the exploitation of -the worker. I tried to point out to him that in the stage of primary -accumulation any society has to take more from the workers. They -have to be paid less than they really create. So there is poverty -and injustice everywhere. It was by way of trying to say to him that -things were not so good in the Soviet Union if he just would look, -because I wanted him to think before he did it. I assumed his act was -irrevocable and I was very sorry for him. So all this was couched in -economic language, which takes up time, and in which I wasn't really -too interested. I did feel that when he left that if I only understood -economics more--had only taken more interest in it when I studied it, -I had only studied it a bit more--that I could have answered him, -talked with him in terms that he could really respect, and that it -might have caused him to think more about his action and might even -have caused him to hesitate, and might have built up his respect for me -sufficiently that I could become someone whom he would have come back -to talk to and could have been some help to him. - -And I felt that I had failed him in the sense that I could not talk -to him in the one language that he really wanted to talk in and was -interested in. I did as much as I could along those lines, but I felt -that it had been inadequate in the situation in my own desire to help -him. - -Mr. SLAWSON. You used the term "economics." Do you mean by that, -economics in the sense of a Marxist versus Capitalist discussion, -terms like you used, "primary accumulation," "exploitation," and so on? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes, a little better than exploitation, more in primary -accumulation, and comparing the two systems. If I had been good at -comparing the two systems and using economic verbiage--I guess that -what I am saying is that if I had had long words about economics, been -able to throw them around with some authority, he would have respected -me. He did respect words, long words, language, and if I had seemed to -have a key to some occult science that he didn't know about but was -interested in, that this would have compelled his respect and might -have brought him back. But I had taken a course in Soviet economics at -Harvard where they had waived the requirement that you had studied the -American economic system, and I had done all right in the course, but -that really was where my economic training began and ended, and I just -barely sustained my interest through the course. - -I regreted very much after that conversation not having ever really -studied economics formally, at least not knowing the terms. - -I am so uninterested in it that if somebody tells me the words I forget -them. It was that bad with me. This was the only real occasion where I -was very sorry. - -Mr. SLAWSON. In Commission Exhibit No. 911, which is John McVickar's -memorandum to files about his conversation with you, he quotes you -as saying, "Miss Johnson remarked that although he used long words -and seemed in some ways well-read, he often used words incorrectly as -though he had learned them from a dictionary." - -Was that in reference to these economic discussions you had with Oswald? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. I think really he didn't use long words too -much about economics. I felt if I could have, I could have made an -impression. Words were important to him. And he was not qualified, mind -you, for a technical discussion of economics. - -It wasn't that he was qualified for it. If I had been, I felt I would -have had a value to him. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I wish you would elaborate on this: What kind of knowledge -you felt Lee Oswald had on economics, and his general ability to engage -in abstract argument and discussion. - -Miss JOHNSON. He liked to create the pretense, the impression that he -was attracted to abstract discussion and was capable of engaging in -it, and was drawn to it. But it was like pricking a balloon. I had -the feeling that if you really did engage him on this ground, you -very quickly would discover that he didn't have the capacity for a -logical sustained argument about an abstract point on economics or on -noneconomic, political matters or any matter, philosophical. Actually -the conversation kept coming back to him, and this was not only my -desire for an interview. It was the way he led it. He really talked -about himself the whole time. - -Whatever he was talking about was really Lee Oswald. He seemed to me -to have really zero capacity for a sustained abstract discussion on -economics or any other subject, and I didn't think he knew anything -about economics. - -In fact, if I had been a little smarter I would have just used the -economic words that I could have remembered, compelled his respect and -he wouldn't have known that I didn't know anything. - -Mr. SLAWSON. You said that you did not get into much political -discussion with him. - -Miss JOHNSON. No, we didn't. Partly I couldn't engage him directly on -the Soviet Union because I had a poor status there as a correspondent. -I worked for the weakest of the American agencies. I was always in -danger of being expelled with my visa expiring. Even then I was only on -a 1 month visa, and at that only because of the spirit of Camp David. I -had just barely gotten back in the country. - -I was just there on sufferance, and I really couldn't show my hand -politically, tell him anything I thought politically. He also didn't -seem interested in a pointed political discussion about either society. -He seemed to be able or willing to discuss in generalizations rather -than in direct terms, a comparison of the two societies or anything -like this. The point where I felt I could engage him was on economics, -and here we did go in for some comparisons of the two societies. That -was all. But politics we hardly discussed, except when he brought it -up. And he didn't bring it up in terms of people at all. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. SLAWSON. Miss Johnson, I wonder if you would search your memory -with the help of your notes and make any comments you could on what -contacts Lee Oswald had had with Soviet officials before you saw him, -any remarks he made or things you could read between the lines, and so -on. - -Miss JOHNSON. I was looking for contact between him and the secret -police, and I wanted to find out if there had been such contact, and -if so, how much and was he aware of it. And I came away impressed only -with the fact that he was secretive, and not at all certain what his -contacts had been, but assuming that there had been some, whether or -not he was aware of it. - -He was very reticent as to who he had seen, what agencies they -represented. I asked him whether he had told Intourist of his -intention, and his answer, which is on the record somewhere, I asked -him if they were encouraging him, and he said they treat it like a -legal formality. They don't encourage and don't discourage you. - -"They do of course warn you that it is not easy to be accepted as a -citizen of the Soviet Union." They were investigating the possibility -of his studying. - -I assumed that the police had told him he wasn't to see any of us, and -that they would tell him when he left the hotel at the end of the week -not to tell any one before he left. I asked him if Intourist knew about -his intentions and he refused to answer. - -He said he had had an interview with an official of the Soviet -Government a few days later. I assume that means after his arrival. But -"official of the Soviet Government" meant nothing and I didn't know -what agency that official represented. - -Also I had the impression, in fact he said, he hoped that his -experience as a radar operator would make him more desirable to them. -That was the only thing that really showed any lack of integrity in -a way about him, a negative thing. That is, he felt he had something -he could give them, something that would hurt his country in a way, -or could, and that was the one thing that was quite negative, that he -was holding out some kind of bait. That also indicated his extreme -naivete, because they have plenty of radar operators, and I doubted -that anything in that realm would be of use to them, although perhaps -he knew codes and things. - -I didn't know anything about that. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Could you elaborate a little bit on that radar point. Had -you been informed by the American Embassy at the time that he had told -Richard Snyder that he had already volunteered to the Soviet officials -that he had been a radar operator in the Marine Corps, and would give -the Russian Government any secrets he had possessed? - -Miss JOHNSON. I had no idea that he had told Snyder that, but he did -tell me--I got the impression, I am not sure that it is in the notes -or not, I certainly got the impression that he was using his radar -training as a come-on to them, hoped that that would make him of some -value to them, and I---- - -Mr. SLAWSON. This was something then that he must have volunteered to -you, because you would not have known to ask about it? - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, again I am not very military minded, and I couldn't -have cared less, you know. But somehow along the line, if it is not in -my notes then it is a memory, then it is one of the things I didn't -write--well, one thing is you know I tend to write what I thought I -might use in the story. But I wasn't going to write a particularly -negative story about him. I wasn't going to write that he was using it -as a come-on so I might not have transcribed it just simply for that -reason, that it wasn't a part of my story. - -But it definitely was an impression that he--and it was from him, -certainly not from the Embassy, that he was using that as a come-on, -and I sure didn't like that. But it didn't occur to me he might have -military secrets. I just felt, well hell, he didn't have much as a -radar operator that they need, although even there I didn't know. - -Maybe there was some little twist in our radar technique that he might -know. It showed a lack of integrity in his personality, and that I -remembered. What he might or might not have to offer them I didn't know. - -About the other point, police interest, I assumed the police would -be the first people to be interested, and that whether he knew it or -not, he had talked to somebody from the police, that he was getting a -favorable room rate because of this interest. That is what I was after -the whole time. But I was struck only by his secretiveness in answer to -this, and I couldn't make out whether he had something to hide, whether -he didn't know really what the situation was, or whether he was simply -a very secretive person. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did he tell you that he had this information which he -was, you might say, holding out as bait to the Soviets, or that he -had already given to the Soviet Government whatever expertise or -information he might have had as a radar operator? - -Miss JOHNSON. I think he told me--could you repeat your question? - -Mr. SLAWSON. Well, I will put it in a different way. I wonder whether -your memory is that Oswald was telling you that he had this information -which he had not yet given to the Soviet Government, and hoped to use -it as a means of convincing them to take him, or whether he had already -given it to them? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; he didn't tell me that he had any specific -information, that he offered it, that he had told them, or that he -would tell them. It was not that explicit. It was something like -if his experience as a radar operator would be of any use to them, -perhaps they would let him work as a radar operator. It was a little -more pointed than that, because I realized that he was going to make -available his radar experience, and that he did want to use it as a -come-on. - -It was a tiny bit, a little bit more pointed than that, but it was more -in that category. If anything he learned as a radar operator in the -Marines would be useful to them, he would give it to them, and he hoped -to continue his training, something like that. - -But it is not in my notes. It is memory, and it is the most negative -recollection of him I had. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did he make any comments to you about having been -interviewed by any Soviet newspaper reporters or radio reporters or -anything of that type? - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, of course that is an obvious question I ought to -have asked him, since a visiting foreigner very quickly does get that -kind of attention, but I didn't ask him. - -Mr. SLAWSON. You did, I think, according to the statements you have -made in these exhibits, ask him whether he had had any contacts with -American Communists or other Communists before he came to the Soviet -Union? - -Miss JOHNSON. I wasn't as suspicious about this as I had been on the -Soviet police angle, but he awakened my suspicions by his reticence. He -seemed to have something to hide, and once again I didn't know whether -he had something to hide or whether he was just very secretive, because -I asked him what books he had read, and he wouldn't say. Yet he was -certainly trying to give me the impression that he was a book-learned -boy, and this comes about page 11 of my notes. We were talking about -books, and we were talking about his contact with American Socialists -or Communists about the same time. - -So perhaps the way that the conversation led from one to the other gave -me the impression that he wasn't naming books because he didn't want -to hurt authors by suggesting that they had had anything to do--he was -taking full responsibility--that they had had anything to do with his -defection. But you would think he would have mentioned books because he -was giving the impression that he was a boy who paid a lot of attention -and he really read books. - -Then Socialists and Communists, I wasn't too suspicious although I -should have been. How did he get there? It wasn't easy at all for him -to do. I was more impressed, awed by it, than I was inquisitive about -where he might have been coached. - -But he awakened me to the point that I should be inquisitive because of -the very fact that he eluded, naming names, specified that he had no -contacts with American Communists, going out of his way to stress it. I -am sure that this part of our conversation was quite a bit longer than -came out in my notes. Again you know I had no idea that he was going to -ever be at all important. But it was he who put the emphasis on lack -of contacts with American Communists. He said American Socialists were -to be shunned by anybody with an interest in progressive ideology. I -probably brought them up rather than the Communists first, just as his -interest in Socialist literature. - -He answered, "Well, they were to be shunned." This was an emphatic -reply to what was probably a very vague, general, unemphatic question. -And he called them "a dormant flag-waving organization." - -So that woke me up and I asked him what about American Communists, -and he said--he was very emphatic here and again probably at more -length than was in the notes--that only through reading literature and -observing, but he wouldn't name what literature, American Communists -"(I never saw an American Communist)" he said, and I put that in -parentheses because I was that uninterested, really. I didn't make it -anything but a parenthetical observation, but only through reading did -he conclude it was best. In other words it was he who had tried to -emphasize that there had not been people involved. - -Retrospectively I see that this was important, that there may have been -people involved. - -Mr. SLAWSON. You say retrospectively you see that it was important. Do -you mean by that that you see now it was very important to him that he -establish to you that he had come only on his own? - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, I saw then that it was important to him to -establish this to me. My story reflects whatever importance I gave it -at the time. But if I knew about him then a tenth of what I know now, -I would have tried to pin him down even more on it, that he might have -had coaching. - -It is also the sort of thing that comes out more clearly when -you look at your notes and you think about a person afterwards, -just-how-did-he-get-here kind of a thing. - -How does a boy like this who doesn't know his way around Moscow find -his way here? But at the time I was talking to him, I had less interest -really than in any help he may have had on the Soviet side. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Trying to divorce what you now know from what you knew -then, did he go into any detail at all about his life before he came to -Russia, his life in the Marine Corps particularly? - -Miss JOHNSON. The only details there were about his experience abroad. -He said literally nothing about his experience in the Marine Corps in -the United States except that he was studying Russian then. He did -speak about his experience in the Marine Corps abroad in Japan, in -the Philippines, and he indicated that he hated to be part of it, you -know, "oppressing power." He said he had been part of an invasion of -Indonesia in March 1958, that there was a Communist-inspired social -turnover, that they had to sit off the coast in ships with enough -ammunition to intervene. He was told that they might have had to go in -in Suez in 1956. - -He had been in Japan and the Philippines, and he hated to participate -in what he viewed as American imperialism, but details of his life in -the Marine Corps he didn't go into at all. - -Mr. SLAWSON. At that time did you yourself speak a fair amount of -Russian? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Were you able to judge his facility in that language? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; because our conversation was totally in English. It -was he who volunteered about his linguistic competence, and I think -that he said that while the Berlitz method had helped him learn to read -and write, and I queried "write" because writing is even harder than -speaking, it hadn't taught him to speak. And he indicated considerable -helplessness in the language. There are a number of things not in the -notes, such as perhaps this, about the language, there was more than is -in the notes. - -His helplessness about the city, the fact that he had only been on one -walk by himself is not in my notes, but it is in my story. There are a -few things like that that weren't in the notes, but that came across -very clearly. I had the feeling that he felt quite helpless in Russian, -not that he hadn't studied it but he simply didn't find the study was -useful in his day-to-day getting around the city. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Your article quotes Oswald as saying that he used Berlitz -methods in learning the language. Does your memory have anything to add -to that as to what exactly he might have meant? - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes. This was another point where he struck me as really -rather elusive about an innocent enough subject. I see on page 3, -he said, "I started learning Russian a year ago along with my other -preparations." - -Well, his saying "along with my other preparations" took my interest -at the time. What were they? Whether I tried to find out more about -what they were and failed and therefore that is not in the notes, but -he threw it out and he then didn't really deliver as far as detailing -them. He said, "I was able to teach myself to read and write from -Berlitz. I still have trouble speaking." - -So I said, "Well, how did you teach yourself to read and write from -Berlitz? Did you just get a textbook or did you go into some city -nearby for lessons at a school?" And he wouldn't answer, and that -struck me as one hell of a--I mean a strange thing to be elusive about. -Why, learning a language is just something you can tell somebody, so I -thought. - -So I said, "Practice or a teacher? Did you have a teacher or did you -just do it from practice?" And he wouldn't say. And then that got me -sufficiently curious that I asked him on what money he had come to the -Soviet Union. That was my next question. He did have a way of a little -bit piquing your curiosity and then failing to deliver. - -He liked to play cat and mouse with your curiosity. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Can you go into and describe what kind of assurances -Oswald said he had been given at that time about his ability to stay -indefinitely in the Soviet Union, or lack of assurances? - -Miss JOHNSON. This was a point on which his anxiety was patent, and he -said almost at the beginning of the interview, "They have confirmed the -fact that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union, be forced to leave -even if the Supreme Soviet refuses my request for Soviet citizenship." - -This came up repeatedly in the conversation, that he was anxious, that -he had been very anxious that he would be forced to go--what was your -question exactly again? - -Mr. SLAWSON. I think you are already addressing yourself to it. I am -interested in what Oswald told you about how sure he was at that time -that he would be permitted to stay in the Soviet Union. - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, he had by that time been told that he wouldn't have -to leave, and as it had obviously been very recently that he had been -told. It was obviously also an enormous relief to him but he hadn't -quite recovered from the anxiety he had felt before the assurance, -because it kept coming up again and again. In fact, he even---- - -Mr. SLAWSON. Could you state for the record what kept coming up again -and again? I mean, what did he tell you he had been told? - -Miss JOHNSON. The fact that he could stay in the Soviet Union as a -resident alien even if he did not receive Soviet citizenship, that -he wouldn't have to leave the country. It came up almost as a leit -motif of this conversation, his anxiety about staying, and his recent -reassurance by them that he could remain as a resident alien had not -altogether quelled the anxiety which was still alive, even though the -assurance was there. - -He was holding on to it and repeating it, you know, reiterating it as -though it gave him something to hold on to. In fact, he did give this -as a reason for his talking to me, that he no longer was afraid that by -talking to a foreigner he would be compromising his ability to stay. In -other words, all the time I was also curious really as to just what he -was. Was he a publicity seeker? Was he doing it for that reason? And so -he said he wouldn't have talked, that he would have given no statement -to the press, which was a rather pretentious way I guess of describing -his utterances up to that time, if the Embassy hadn't already released -it, and he wouldn't have said anything to anyone if they hadn't -released it. - -This was another reason for his being mad at the Embassy. Then he went -on to say as another reason for talking--he was already inconsistent -there--he would like to give his side of the story and give the people -of the United States something to think about. - -And then on top of that, that having been assured "I would not have to -return to the United States I assumed it would be safe for me to give -my side of the story," and at the time I underlined the word "safe." -Why did he think it would be unsafe, and "my side of the story"? He -is assuming that the Embassy is giving out a negative story about -him. He was paranoid. I mean he assumed that they were saying nasty -things about him and he wanted to set the record straight. This told me -something about him already at the beginning of the interview, that he -really was a little bit paranoid. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I have intentionally asked you of your impressions on this -point, without giving you some other information that we have, and I -now want to give that information to you and see whether in the light -of this, what is your interpretation of Oswald's attitude at that time. - -His historic diary, which is Commission Exhibit No. 24, has an entry -that on November 15 he interviewed Aline Mosby. That is incorrect, -probably a day late. It was probably the 14th or the 13th. On November -16, which he places as the day after he interviewed her, he has the -following entry: - -"A Russian official comes to my room, asks how I am, notifies me I can -remain in U.S.S.R. 'til some solution is found with what to do with me. -It is comforting news for me." - -Miss JOHNSON. That was the 16th. - -Mr. SLAWSON. But I say, do not take the dates correctly except that one -date comes after another, because he also placed the interview with -Mosby the 15th, which we know must have been at least as early as the -14th, and possibly as early as the 13th. - -Miss JOHNSON. In other words--yes; but that might help account for the -fullness. Either he is lying; i.e., really he is misled, or not lying -but confused about his reason for talking to me, and I think he was. - -Mr. SLAWSON. But I think that the significance of the entry is that the -promise that he could stay was very distinctly qualified. - -Miss JOHNSON. "Until some solution----" - -Mr. SLAWSON. "Is found what to do with me." - -Miss JOHNSON. That is interesting: "until some solution." The way he -put it to me was, and he put it more than once, it is in the notes, -"even if they refuse that, I won't have to leave." - -I imagine that his talking to me for so long, however, could be partly -because he did feel the heat was off him in some way. That might be one -reason. Another thing is that leads me to date my own interview the -17th, because for some reason I have the feeling that that information -has been conveyed to him on the day before I talked to him. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I don't think this is a basis for your dating your -interview on the 17th, because I think he has everything moved up a day -here. He puts the Mosby interview on the 15th which we know was on the -14th, so he probably puts the Russian officials coming to his room on -the 16th when it probably occurred on the 15th. - -Miss JOHNSON. That would be a Sunday. But Soviet officials do do things -on Sundays. They definitely do. But even so, it is more likely that -that happened on the 14th, Mosby on the 13th. That is possible, too. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Yes. - -Miss JOHNSON. So they had just simply said until--in other words, he -is inexact for all his legalism. Either he is confused and inexact, or -he was misleading purposely. He may have misunderstood the official, -thought the official was promising more than he was. - -Mr. SLAWSON. It could be, except that this of course is his diary -entry, so he must have known what he was writing there, unless he wrote -it down much later. In other words, it is possible that he made the -entry in the diary at a much later time when he then realized that the -promise had been qualified, and was under the impression when he spoke -to you that he had received an unconditional promise. But the reason -I brought this up was whether with the insight that he may have known -when he spoke to you, that he had not quite received the unconditional -promise he purported to have received, does this give you any further -insight on him? I don't want you to just speculate here. - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, whether he viewed publicity as actually perhaps -helping his case, or whether enjoying the sense of importance that -publicity gave him, he was rationalizing it by thinking that he was -manipulating the situation to his advantage by having a little more -publicity. - -This is the only thing I wonder. Or possibly it was simply relief. He -did use the word "safe," that he felt it would be safe. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I think we have about got out all on that point we can. -Could you elaborate a little more on Oswald's attitude toward the -Embassy's reluctance to permit him to renounce his citizenship, on what -he felt the Embassy was doing here, and what your impression was what -the Embassy was doing? - -Miss JOHNSON. My impression from talking to John McVickar was that the -Embassy had tried to give him a cooling off period, to be sure he knew -what he was doing, but that it had also written him, informed him in -writing that he could renounce his citizenship and he had a perfect -right to come in and do so. The Embassy's behavior had been correct, -and on the side it was trying to be humane, giving him time to think -out what he was doing. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did he show you the letter the Embassy had written him? - -Miss JOHNSON. He showed me two letters, and I think he asked me -something about them. I was very amused, because the Embassy was his -scapegoat, and he did keep bringing it up. But this contrasted with -really the correctness of the letters that he showed me from them, and -it contrasted with the rather kindly attitude that Mr. McVickar had. -And then on top of that he kept saying he shouldn't be too mad at them, -but he indicated that he was very very mad at them indeed. - -He said November 1 he had written a letter of protest to the Ambassador -protesting the way Snyder had carried out his duties, and had received -a letter back, and he then gave me, showed me the letter. But my -impression is that he showed me two letters. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection a little. I am now -on page 6 of your exhibit No. 5, in which you quote from a letter from -the State Department which he showed you. - -Miss JOHNSON. This is Mr. Thompson's letter. He did show it to me. I -remember now that he showed me the letter. - -Mr. SLAWSON. A letter from Mr. Thompson? - -Miss JOHNSON. From Ambassador Thompson. Well, I am not sure. He said he -wrote a letter of protest to the U.S. Ambassador, and he received this -letter back. But it may have been that the letter was signed by Mr. -Snyder. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Yes. Do you think that your recollection of two letters -may be that one he wrote and the other he received, or do you -distinctly remember that he received two which he showed you? - -Miss JOHNSON. I thought he showed me two things, but the only one I -wrote anything about was the Embassy's reply, and either my memory -has miscarried and he only showed me one letter, or I simply don't -recollect what the other one was. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Is it correct that the Embassy reply you are referring to -is the one that is quoted on page 6? - -Miss JOHNSON. Right. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Of your exhibit No. 5? - -Miss JOHNSON. Right. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did he show you any communications he had received from -his family or anybody else? - -Miss JOHNSON. No. He told me that--again there is a little more here -than is in the notes but it is partly a matter of impression. He was -avoiding hearing from them, and they called him, and he said it was to -ask him to come back, and he wouldn't answer. How did he know they were -asking him to come back if he didn't answer? He was full of those kinds -of contradictions, but that he was avoiding them. As far as I recollect -he didn't show me anything from his family. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did he tell you why he was avoiding communications with -his family? - -Miss JOHNSON. No. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did he---- - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, maybe he felt his resolve was shaky. I felt his -resolve was shaky, and maybe he felt so too, and he was afraid if he -talked to them they would talk him out of it. - -Mr. SLAWSON. In one of your exhibits you comment on his reply to one -of your questions, that if he was so adamant on wanting to renounce -his American citizenship, he could do so by going back to the Embassy, -and that he had been so informed in the letter. His reply to that, -according to your exhibits, was that they would simply give him the -same runaround again. Do you have anything to add to that? - -Miss JOHNSON. Well, it has come up. It is in the notes several times -here, and I may not catch it each time. But I think I have already -spoken for the record my impression that he was really not consistent -about the Embassy, or I might say just putting it a little more -strongly and editorially, he was not quite honest, because he claimed -he was so mad he wouldn't go back, yet he was so firm in his resolve as -a great big man, that he was going to give up his citizenship, you know. - -But I pointed out to him that this seemed to me to be pique, boyish -pique. Whether I actually said it, you know, I probably didn't quite, -but that is what I thought. He was indulging himself. If he was really -so resolved to give up his citizenship, then why let a little thing -like annoyance over his October the 31st interview stand in the way of -doing this, which he felt was an important principle and act? And I did -point out to him the discrepancies in a gentler way than I honestly -thought. The answers in my notes reflect his response to this, not the -way that I put it to him, that he wouldn't go back because of this and -that. - -He did show me the letter, but my impression is that he wanted to know -whether I thought that the letter was proper treatment. Showing it -to me was to me an indication of his very legal approach, legalistic -approach to things, and it seemed to me of course nothing exceptional -about the letter. You see there he knew what he could do, and he was -in light of that refusing to go to the Embassy. That seemed to me -very immature, and from the standpoint of his stated principles, very -inconsistent. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I just have one final question here. I would like to bring -together---- - -Miss JOHNSON. Excuse me, could I add something there? - -Mr. SLAWSON. Yes. - -Miss JOHNSON. And that really was one more thing that led me to think -that he was less than certain about his attempt to defect. Well, -leaving himself this loophole was it seemed to me important, it seemed -important at the time, and he knew he was doing it, because I pointed -it out to him. He knew he was doing it, and he got out of it by -whatever it was he said to me. I can't isolate all the comments in the -notes, but they are all there. He got out of it, but he knew he was -doing it. - -Mr. SLAWSON. But you felt that all these comments then were more -or less excuses made up in his own mind, either consciously or -unconsciously, that he was--excuses for not going back to the Embassy -to make this final step of dissolving his citizenship? - -Miss JOHNSON. And that behind what appeared to me to be boyish pique -lay something else. He was leaving himself a way out, and I was fully -aware of it at the time. - -Mr. SLAWSON. We previously have discussed how much he probably was -paying for his hotel room at various times, and for his meals. I bring -to your attention one of your statements in the exhibits, that he said -he had been living on Intourist vouchers for 10 days, and we have -already gone into what 10 days probably meant. Did he make any other -comments that would relate to how much money his attempt to defect was -costing him? - -Miss JOHNSON. Finance was certainly something I talked to him about, -and it was something he was notably elusive about, and again he said -he was paying the standard rate. "I want to make it clear they are not -sponsoring me." Naturally I wanted to know on what money he got there, -and it was in response to this that he told me the itinerary by which -he came, by which he said he came, that is from New Orleans to Le -Havre, to Helsinki. He gave me his route. - -Whether it was the true route I don't know, but he gave me what he said -was the route, and the method of transport. He said he left from New -Orleans September 19. I wasn't absolutely sure that was the date he -gave me, on a Friday by ship. Actually the 19th was a Saturday. And -he might have left on the 18th. That it took him 12 days to get to Le -Havre, that he booked a flight to Helsinki but you couldn't fly to -Helsinki from Le Havre. You would have to fly from Paris. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Actually he flew from London. He went from Le Havre to -London and then Helsinki. - -Miss JOHNSON. By the same ship? - -Mr. SLAWSON. No; by airplane I believe. Anyway he disembarked on the -ship at Le Havre, as he told you, then went from there to London I -believe by airplane, although I am not certain. But then he went by -airplane from London to Helsinki. - -Miss JOHNSON. Yes; actually he got his visa in London probably. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Well, I do know some of these facts, but I would like you -to go on the best of your recollection. - -Miss JOHNSON. He said nothing about London at all. I never was sure how -the hell he got to Helsinki, but he said he went by train from Helsinki -to Moscow, and he repeated that for 10 days he had been on those -vouchers. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Did he indicate to you anything about how he got his visa? - -Miss JOHNSON. No; not at all. I may well have asked him too. A question -and a nonreply, though, are not recorded in my notes, but I may well -have asked him. On the other hand I think I would have remembered if he -had said anything. If he just evaded the way he evaded a lot, I might -not have put it down, because evasion was really quite characteristic -of him. But of course I was curious where he got it, and how. And -I do have $30 written down here as the rate. You know there was a -businessman's rate of $12 a day at that time, and also the $30 rate I -am telling you is as of that time because it is now $35. But I do have -$30 written down, so I assumed that he specified that he was there at -the $30 rate those 10 days, not the $12. No; he said nothing about a -visa, and of course I was curious. - -Mr. SLAWSON. I have no more specific questions, Miss Johnson. If you -have anything at all to add, or any further comments you want to make, -please go ahead and do so. - -Miss JOHNSON. No; I don't. - -Mr. SLAWSON. Thank you very much for coming here. - -Miss JOHNSON. Thank you. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF ERIC ROGERS - -The testimony of Eric Rogers was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old -Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by -Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Eric Rogers, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified -as follows: - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers, I am an attorney on the staff of the -President's Commission. I think I met you one day. - -Mr. ROGERS. I remember you; yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I wanted to ask you a few questions about Oswald. I -am questioning you under authority granted to me by the Commission -under Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint -resolution of Congress, No. 137. - -You are entitled to have an attorney if you want to and you don't have -to answer any questions if you feel that they are incriminating. - -Mr. ROGERS. Well, I can't answer what I don't know. I will tell you -just what I told them, you see. That's all I saw. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers, am I correct in understanding that you lived -at 4907 Magazine Street during the period last summer when---- - -Mr. ROGERS. I did; a few months. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move there? - -Mr. ROGERS. It was around in the--in July, around July. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there? - -Mr. ROGERS. He was there for a short period of time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You lived right next door to Oswald? - -Mr. ROGERS. My apartment was in the front and my window was right -next--near his apartment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You met Oswald and came to know him? Did you ever meet -him? - -Mr. ROGERS. No; I never met him. He didn't bid the time to anyone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him or anything? - -Mr. ROGERS. No; never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know what his name was? - -Mr. ROGERS. Just by mail coming in the box on the front. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to his wife? - -Mr. ROGERS. She spoke Russian. She did bid the time of day, that's all, -but he didn't. He wouldn't bid the time to no one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ever have any arguments that you know of? - -Mr. ROGERS. Some spats, but in Russian, looked like. You know what I -mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. They spoke Russian and you couldn't understand what they -were saying? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald have any visitors at his -apartment? - -Mr. ROGERS. He had no one. Had some kind of a dark fellow asked where -he lived. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be a Cuban? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes; Spanish type of person. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that in August, do you remember? - -Mr. ROGERS. Around that time. I believe it was around that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you remember anybody else that visited Oswald at -his apartment? - -Mr. ROGERS. Probably at the time they had this--you know--Fair Play -for Cuba, something like that. I think they were radio interviewers, -I think. Looked like local people. Didn't look like--heard him saying -something about wanting to play on radio. That's all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any other ones? - -Mr. ROGERS. Not that I know of unless I was at work. I wasn't there all -the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was in the hospital part of this time, is that -correct? - -Mr. ROGERS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work at that time, sir? - -Mr. ROGERS. No; I wasn't working at that time. See, Mr. Liebeler, I am -on pension, you see. I am only allowed to make so much a year because -of the pension, you see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I see. Did you ever see Oswald sitting on the front porch? - -Mr. ROGERS. Oh, yes; with books, reading. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he read a lot? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any rifle or firearms of any type in his -possession at that time? - -Mr. ROGERS. No; I never. We did see one time some--the mailman brought -a big package in. I wouldn't say what it was, of course. I guess they -checked that through the mail. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? - -Mr. ROGERS. It was in the summer, some time before he left, somewhere -around that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald's apartment had a little porch in the front? - -Mr. ROGERS. Screened porch. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It had blinds in it, too, that you could let down, did it -not? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been possible for him to have sat in -that porch and you couldn't see him very well from the street? - -Mr. ROGERS. He wouldn't discuss anything on the porch. He would go in -the house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been possible to sit in that porch and drop -the blinds so that people couldn't see you? - -Mr. ROGERS. It could be possible. I don't know. I never--I seen him -sitting down there and go in and out, coming in and out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We talked to you previously out at the apartment, and -my recollection is that you told us that some time in September, I -believe, that a station wagon came and picked up Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. ROGERS. That was the time he left town. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. - -Mr. ROGERS. The station wagon was visible. I called my wife. I said -"Well, he must be leaving." They were packing all the things. Probably -left the next night or sometime like I told you, the following night -after. Had the two things in his hand and goggles on like he was -running out of there. I don't know what he was doing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about those goggles. Were they something like -sunglasses? Describe them. - -Mr. ROGERS. I don't know. I couldn't say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see what license plates the station wagon had on -it? - -Mr. ROGERS. No, Mr. Liebeler, I couldn't tell you on that. Kind of a -gray station wagon. He was putting the packing, everything in that -himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know when the station wagon left? - -Mr. ROGERS. Well, I told my wife--she said she might have left early in -the morning before we got up, with the lady. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You think that she might have left with the lady? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. Then he left that night or late afternoon. Went out in -a hurry. Left all the lights on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was in the station wagon? Was there another lady? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the station wagon leave? - -Mr. ROGERS. We didn't see it leave, but it wasn't there when he left. -There was nobody else evidently. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald at all after the station wagon left? - -Mr. ROGERS. No; I didn't see him until that night. He slipped out of -there. He was going out to catch the bus across the street. The bus -stop is right across the street from us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did see Oswald come out of the apartment in the -evening? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. We was sitting on the porch at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So it is clear to you that Oswald did not leave with the -ladies in the station wagon? - -Mr. ROGERS. No; he didn't leave with them in the station wagon. It was -the following evening he left on the bus with these two handbags. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the evening? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He ran across the street and got on the bus? - -Mr. ROGERS. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he get on the bus at the bus stop? - -Mr. ROGERS. Bus stop on the corner right opposite. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the center of the city? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the bags that he had in his hand when he went -out? - -Mr. ROGERS. My wife seen some of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER (handing pictures to witness). Let me show you some -pictures and see if these look like it. - -Mr. ROGERS (indicating). This middle one, I know that ain't the type -there. That's not the type. - -Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture of a -bag that has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 126," and ask you -if that looks like the bag. - -Mr. ROGERS. That's it. That's it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does that look like one of the bags? - -Mr. ROGERS. That looks to me like it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). Now I show you a picture -which we will mark Rogers Exhibit No. 1, showing two views of a bag. -Does it look like the one Oswald had? - -Mr. ROGERS. You mean--he had two of them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many did he have? - -Mr. ROGERS. He had two of them in my estimation, each one in one hand. -They looked like these here to me, to my knowledge. I mean, yes. I -don't think it was this type [indicating]. I would say this type -[indicating]. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are pointing to No. A-1, which is a picture of -Commission Exhibit No. 126 and do you think he had two bags that looked -like "Commission Exhibit No. 126." Did he carry both in one hand? - -Mr. ROGERS. One in each hand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can tell, he did not have a bag similar to -Rogers Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. ROGERS. No, no. It was kind of daylight. You could see. You know -what I mean? - -Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you sure that he didn't have one like Rogers -Exhibit No. 1? Is it a different size? - -Mr. ROGERS. It was--they both look like the same size, and they were -well packed. They were well stuffed. I know they wasn't light. I don't -know what he had in them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So in your estimation, he had two bags like Exhibit 126? - -Mr. ROGERS. If I am not mistaken, they are the two bags that my wife -and I identified when they came over to the house, somebody from -Oklahoma. He was transferred down here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. An FBI agent? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They actually brought the bags over? - -Mr. ROGERS. They had the pictures like this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show you pictures like these two that I have got -here? - -Mr. ROGERS. Sure did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They had bags like Exhibit 126? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. This is the type. That's the green type of looking -luggage. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say again that he did not have a bag that looked like -Rogers Exhibit No. 1? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald leave as far as you can tell on the same -day that the station wagon left, or on the next day? - -Mr. ROGERS. Well, they packed that night and, yes; they left on the -same day, the following evening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They packed the station wagon on one day and the next day -you looked out and the station wagon was gone? - -Mr. ROGERS. He left that following evening. I figured he was moving. I -don't know. If he was moving, he was supposed to tell the landlord. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to the landlord about it? - -Mr. ROGERS. No; but she knew about it. He didn't talk to her. He didn't -talk to nobody. He would give you the money and wouldn't say nothing. -He was quiet himself, that's all. - -Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I am going to show you a -picture that has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if -you recognize anybody in that picture. - -Mr. ROGERS. Wait. Let me get my glasses on. I can see better this way. -[Examining picture.] No, Mr. Liebeler, I don't think. I don't think. -No; I don't think I know any one in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture that -has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize -any individual that is in that picture. - -Mr. ROGERS. Well, maybe he did identify him, but I never saw this man. -No. That's when this happened? Mr. Garner did, but I didn't. No, I--if -he did come around, I wasn't there. If I did, I would tell you, you -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture that -has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A," and ask you if you recognize -that man. - -Mr. ROGERS. No. I seen plenty people, but I don't know him either. If I -did, I would tell you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers. - -Mr. ROGERS. Under oath, I tell you just exactly what I tell you, the -same thing. As far as the boy is concerned, you know, he never spoke to -anybody. Go in and out, eat and clean. Didn't nobody knew his business. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He kept pretty much to himself? - -Mr. ROGERS. Yes. - - - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES LEHRER - -The testimony of James Lehrer was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 24, -1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, -Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel of the President's Commission. - - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the -whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. LEHRER. I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the -staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the -Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by President Johnson's -Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of -Congress, No. 137. Under the Commission's rules governing the taking of -testimony, you are entitled to 3 days' notice and to have an attorney -here if you want to, and you are entitled to the usual privileges and -rights concerning self incrimination and that sort of thing as far as -answering my questions are concerned. I know that you have not had 3 -days' notice of this, but I understand that you are here voluntarily -and that you are prepared to proceed without an attorney; is that -correct? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please state your name. - -Mr. LEHRER. James Lehrer [spelling], L-e-h-r-e-r. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born? - -Mr. LEHRER. May 19, 1934, Wichita, Kans. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. LEHRER. Dallas; 3709 West Beverly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline your educational background for us, -please? - -Mr. LEHRER. High school, graduate of Victoria College, University of -Missouri. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in at the university? - -Mr. LEHRER. Journalism. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed by the Dallas Times Herald? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked with them? - -Mr. LEHRER. Nearly 3 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your job over there? - -Mr. LEHRER. I am a reporter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you cover a specific beat? - -Mr. LEHRER. I cover the Federal beat, labor, and politics--some -politics. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do before you went to work with the Dallas -Times Herald? - -Mr. LEHRER. I was with the Dallas Morning News about 2 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Before that? - -Mr. LEHRER. I was in the Marine Corps. I went there directly from -school into the service. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to work for the Dallas Morning News? - -Mr. LEHRER. I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you went to work for the Dallas Times Herald and you -are employed by them now? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have received information that you were in the office -of the Dallas Times Herald on the morning of November 28, 1963; is that -correct? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you got there and what you did -that morning and what you saw? - -Mr. LEHRER. Well, it was Thanksgiving and I got there about 7 or 7:30, -something like that, and I don't remember specifically any stories -that I worked on on that day. It was just a routine day, not a routine -day--a holiday is not routine, because you don't work the whole day on -a holiday, so I only worked until around noon that day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You got to the office about 7 o'clock? - -Mr. LEHRER. About 7 or 7:30--something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Hunter Schmidt, Jr.? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes; I do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is he also employed as a reporter by the Dallas Times -Herald? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he was at that time? - -Mr. LEHRER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him in the office that morning? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the fact that a story appeared in -the Dallas Times Herald on this day concerning a gunshop in Irving, -Tex., at which Oswald was supposed to have had some work done on a -rifle? - -Mr. LEHRER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of how that story came into the office of -the newspaper? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes; in a general way. The desk, or the city desk, which -consists of the city editor and the assistant city editor or the -rewrite staff--somewhere they got a tip that there was a fellow in -Irving who had mounted the sight or knew something about it. It was -given to Hunter to check out. I happened to be sitting over there. I -do not normally work physically on the city desk, but all of us had -been working on the assassination aspects and it had been a lot of my -responsibility in particular, because so much of it was on my beat at -that time, and somebody said they got this guy and they gave it to -Hunter to check out and I was sitting right next to Hunter and when he -checked it out--in other words--when he called. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he do--do you remember? - -Mr. LEHRER. Well, he just--he was talking to somebody on the telephone -and he was given the checkout and he had the man's name before he -called and he called somebody on the phone and I was doing something -myself--I wasn't writing a story, but I was sitting there and he was -talking to this guy, talking to somebody on the telephone, let's put it -that way, and when he got through he said something about, "Yeah--this -is it; that's right." - -Or, it was words to that effect, and then I looked at his notes, you -know, and said, "That's a hell of a story," or something like that, and -about that time somebody said, "Don't talk about it, write it." So he -gave it to, I think it was--I'm not sure about this, but I think it was -in a general story of the assassination developments of that day, which -we were running every day, and I think a rewrite man may have taken the -notes and written the story. I don't recall seeing Hunter write the -story. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the man that Schmidt was talking -to? - -Mr. LEHRER. I can only assume it was Ryder. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What leads you to that assumption? - -Mr. LEHRER. Well, it was just circumstantially--I believe it was. I -mean, he was given this name and the information that this man is -supposed to have mounted the sight on Oswald's rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the name he was given was Dial Ryder; is that right? - -Mr. LEHRER. That's right; that's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he was told to check that story? - -Mr. LEHRER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he proceeded to do it? - -Mr. LEHRER. He proceeded to do it. He dialed a number and got -somebody on the line and started talking and when he got through, -he said, "That's right." I looked at his notes--I don't have a -specific recollection of what the notes said, but I remember that he -had some quotes there, I mean, he had some information in the notes -that verified the story, and at that time--one of the reasons I was -interested in it--I was working on the story we finally ran the next -day on the FBI looking for where Oswald might have possibly test -fired this rifle, so that was one of the reasons I was particularly -interested in it, because I wasn't coordinating our assassination -coverage, but I was vitally involved in it, I would say, at that time, -and I was working on this, and I think he gave the notes to a rewrite -man. I'm not sure, but I don't know what happened after that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you have the specific recollection that -Schmidt engaged in a conversation over the telephone for some period of -time at a time when he was supposed to be checking out this story of -the gunsmith in Irving? - -Mr. LEHRER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After this conversation was over, he indicated to you -that the story checked out? - -Mr. LEHRER. That's right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequently that day the story, in fact, appeared in the -newspaper, indicating that there was evidence to show that Oswald had -taken his rifle to this particular gunshop. - -Mr. LEHRER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this situation with Schmidt recently? - -Mr. LEHRER. No; actually, I talked to him about it briefly this morning. - -He was somewhat--he didn't recall who was sitting next to him and I -told him I had, because I didn't think there was any problem, and -I just mentioned that. Now, the FBI--one thing--as far as that's -concerned--and as far as the fact that somebody might think that Hunter -and I got together on this--the day the FBI got this, and apparently -it was sent down by the Commission who said, "Check this out"--that -Ryder apparently--there was some question about it--and the FBI came -up there and a guy by the name of--well, there were two agents from -Oklahoma City who were working a special on the assassination at that -time--just the assassination story. It was Petrakis and some other -guy--I don't remember the other guy's name, but they came up and talked -to Ken Smart. You see, there was no byline on the story and they said, -"Who wrote the story?" and Smart apparently said he didn't know and -they went back and looked in the files and that indicated who wrote -it and so Ken came over to me and showed me the story with Petrakis -and this other guy there, and he said, "Did you write the story?" And -I said, "No, Hunter Schmidt wrote the story"; that's how they found -out Hunter even wrote it--where he got the information was when I told -him and so then we talked about this thing briefly, you know, and Ken -said, "Apparently Ryder is saying that he didn't talk to anybody at -the time," and I told Smart and Petrakis and this other fellow here -that I was sitting right next to the fellow and that he was talking to -somebody and I assumed it was Ryder and then I hadn't even mentioned it -to Hunter, because Hunter was not in the office that day and Petrakis -finally got ahold of him at home on the phone, I believe, or talked to -him later and Hunter didn't even know until this morning. - -As I say, then Hunter told me that--it was you, I believe, that told -him that there was a witness who could verify that there was such a -conversation and he said, "Who is that, what are you talking about?" -And he said, "Why didn't you tell me before?" I said I didn't think -there would be any problem--I just mentioned it to Martha Jo in passing -here one day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say this morning Schmidt told you he had been over -here last night and he had been questioned? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the details of his experience last night? - -Mr. LEHRER. A little bit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that Mr. Ryder had been in here? - -Mr. LEHRER. Yes; that Ryder was here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But in point of fact and indicating for the record, -the way the information came most recently to my attention, that you -had overheard this, because Mrs. Martha Jo Stroud, an assistant U.S. -attorney in this office, told me that you had come over here after we -had asked Schmidt to come over and testify. - -Mr. LEHRER. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you mentioned to her in passing that you thought -probably we wanted Schmidt to come over so we could ask him about this -newspaper story that was written in connection with the Irving Sports -Shop; isn't that right? - -Mr. LEHRER. Well, specifically, when Martha Jo called Hunter and told -him that somebody from the Warren Commission wanted to talk to him on a -certain day, Hunter came over to me and said, "Somebody from Washington -is coming in," and you know, I didn't know that anybody was coming in. -You know, you are unannounced on your trips here and this is part of my -responsibility to cover Warren Commission people when they come and I -try to do it, and I said--we discussed, "Maybe they want to talk to you -about this deal, because the FBI had talked to you before," and so the -next day when I was down talking to Martha Jo, we were talking about -it and I indicated to her this was probably what it was. I told her -what it was probably about and I said there was no problem--I was just -sitting there and just sitting there very casually. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt in your mind whatsoever that -Schmidt actually talked to Ryder that morning, do you? - -Mr. LEHRER. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are aware of the fact, of course, that Ryder denies -talking to this man? - -Mr. LEHRER. That's what I understand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no information that would suggest any reason -why Ryder would deny this? - -Mr. LEHRER. I can't think of any reason unless he denies the -information, if he just denies the technicality that he didn't talk -to a newspaperman or didn't talk to Schmidt specifically, that's one -thing; if he's denying the whole bit, that's conceivable. - -Mr. LIEBELER. No; he doesn't deny the whole bit, he just denies that he -was the one that gave that story out. - -Mr. LEHRER. I see; I don't know what it could be in that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any reason why Schmidt might be lying -about it? - -Mr. LEHRER. No; he had nothing to gain by it. It was just a story, and -my goodness, we were working--I mean--there were a multitude of stories -and a multitude of checking out and we were deluged just like everybody -was with rumors and things of this and that and he would have no reason -to write something that wasn't true. The fact is, he didn't even have -his name on it, so he didn't have anything to gain by it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. - -Mr. LEHRER. Thank you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We appreciate your cooperation. - -Mr. LEHRER. All right. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF BARDWELL D. ODUM - -The following affidavit was executed by Bardwell D. Odum on July 10, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Bardwell D. Odum, having first been duly sworn, depose as follows: - -I am presently a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, -U.S. Department of Justice, and have been employed in such a capacity -since June 15, 1942. - -On November 23, 1963, while acting officially in my capacity as a -Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, I obtained a -photograph of an unknown individual, furnished to the Federal Bureau -of Investigation by the Central Intelligence Agency, and proceeded to -the Executive Inn, a motel, at Dallas, Texas, where Marina Oswald was -staying. - -In view of the source of this picture, and, in order to remove all -background data which might possibly have disclosed the location where -the picture was taken, I trimmed off the background. The straight cuts -made were more quickly done than a complete trimming of the silhouette -and I considered them as effective for the desired purpose. - -I desired to show this photograph to Marina Oswald in an attempt to -identify the individual portrayed in the photograph and to determine if -he was an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -It was raining and almost dark. I went to the door of Marina Oswald's -room and knocked, identifying myself. Marguerite Oswald opened the door -slightly and, upon being informed that I wished to speak to Marina -Oswald, told me that Marina Oswald was completely exhausted and could -not be interviewed. Marguerite Oswald did not admit me to the motel -room. I told her I desired to show a photograph to Marina Oswald, and -Marguerite Oswald again said that Marina was completely exhausted and -could not be interviewed due to that fact. I then showed Marguerite -Oswald the photograph in question. She looked at it briefly and stated -that she had never seen this individual. I then departed the Executive -Inn. The conversation with Marguerite Oswald and the exhibition of the -photograph took place while I was standing outside the door to the room -and Marguerite Oswald was standing inside with the door slightly ajar. - -Attached hereto are two photographic copies of the front and back of a -photograph.[G] I have examined these copies and they are exact copies -of the photograph of the unknown individual which I showed to Mrs. -Marguerite Oswald on November 23, 1963. - -Signed this 10th day of July 1964. - - (S) Bardwell D. Odum, - BARDWELL D. ODUM. - - [G] The photograph referred to in the above affidavit of - Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum appears in the exhibit - volumes as Odum Exhibit No. 1. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES R. MALLEY - -The following affidavit was executed by James R. Malley on July 14, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -I, James R. Malley, Inspector, Federal Bureau of Investigation, -Department of Justice, being first duly sworn, depose as follows: - -In accordance with a request by Mr. Howard P. Willens, a member of the -staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President -Kennedy, I transmitted to the Commission on February 11, 1964, a copy -of a photograph of an unidentified man which was made available to the -Federal Bureau of Investigation by the Central Intelligence Agency. - -Prior to transmitting the aforementioned copy of this photograph to -the President's Commission, I used a scissors and trimmed from the -photograph all background which surrounded the head, shoulders and arms -of the unidentified individual. I did this, inasmuch as the Central -Intelligence Agency had previously advised that it had no objection to -this Bureau furnishing a copy of this photograph to the President's -Commission with all background eliminated. - -I have examined a copy of Commission Exhibit 237, which is attached,[H] -and it appears such exhibit was made from the copy of the photograph -of the unidentified individual which I cropped and transmitted to Mr. -Willens on February 11, 1964. - -To my knowledge, the identity of the unknown individual depicted in the -copy of the photograph which I transmitted to Mr. Willens on February -11, 1964, has not been established. - -I have reviewed records of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in this -particular matter and such records disclose that a duplicate copy -of this same photograph was cropped in a different shape to remove -background by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum of the Dallas Office of -the Federal Bureau of Investigation and was then exhibited to Mrs. -Marguerite Oswald by Special Agent Odum on November 23, 1963. - -Signed this 14th day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C. - - (S) James R. Malley, - JAMES R. MALLEY. - - [H] The photograph referred to in the above affidavit of - Inspector James R. Malley is identical to Commission - Exhibit No. 237 and appears in the exhibit volumes. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF RICHARD HELMS - -The following affidavit was executed by Richard Helms on August 7, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF VIRGINIA, - _County of Fairfax, ss_: - -Richard Helms, being duly sworn says: - -1. I am the Deputy Director for Plans of the Central Intelligence -Agency. - -2. I base this affidavit on my personal knowledge of the affairs of -the Central Intelligence Agency and on detailed inquiries of those -officers and employees within my supervision who would have knowledge -about any photographs furnished by that Agency to the Federal Bureau of -Investigation. - -3. I have personally examined the photograph which has been marked -Commission Exhibit No. 237, a copy of which is attached to the -affidavit of Inspector James R. Malley, dated July 14, 1964, and the -photograph attached to the affidavit of Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum -dated July 10, 1964. - -4. Those photographs are partial copies of a photograph furnished by -the Central Intelligence Agency to the Federal Bureau of Investigation -on November 22, 1963. They are referred to as partial only because, on -information and belief, Odum and Malley personally trimmed or cropped -their copies of the photograph to exclude the background against which -the individual portrayed in these photographs is depicted in the -original photograph. - -5. The figure portrayed in those photographs is the same individual -portrayed in the original photograph. - -6. The original photograph was taken outside of the continental United -States sometime during the period July 1, 1963 to November 23, 1963. - -Signed this 7th day of August 1964. - - (S) Richard Helms. - RICHARD HELMS. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF PETER MEGARGEE BROWN - -The following affidavit was executed by Peter Megargee Brown on May 13, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF NEW YORK, - _County of New York, ss_: - -Peter Megargee Brown, being duly sworn, says: - -I am a member of the firm of Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft, counsel -for the Community Service Society and am familiar with the papers and -records in the possession of the Society relating to Lee Harvey Oswald. - -This firm has caused a search of the files of Community Service Society -under my supervision which reveals one file entitled "Marguerite -Claverie Oswald #219055". The foregoing file is now in the possession -of the deponent. To the best of my knowledge this file contains the -only papers relating to Lee Harvey Oswald in the possession or control -of the Community Service Society. Accordingly under my supervision -photostatic copies have been made of this entire file, such copies -being attached to this affidavit. - -In information and belief the attached photostatic copies[I] are of the -entire file and comprise all the papers relating to Lee Harvey Oswald -in the possession and control of the Community Service Society or its -counsel. - -Signed this 13th day of May 1964. - - (S) Peter Megargee Brown, - PETER MEGARGEE BROWN. - - [I] The attached photostatic copies referred to in the above - affidavit appear in the exhibit volumes as Brown Exhibit - No. 1. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF GARY TAYLOR - -The following affidavit was executed by Gary Taylor on August 4, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Gary Taylor, 3948 Orlando Court, Apartment 111, Dallas, Tex., being -sworn, say: - -1. As I testified in my deposition, I went with Lee Harvey Oswald on or -about November 4, 1962, to a gasoline service station in Fort Worth, -Texas, where Oswald rented a U-Haul trailer which we were to use and -did use in transporting Oswald's household goods and paraphernalia from -Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to the Oswalds' Elsbeth Street apartment -in Dallas. - -2. The rental charge for the trailer was about $5.00 and was paid by -Oswald. I made the cash deposit to secure the return of the trailer. I -returned the trailer that afternoon and picked up the deposit. - -Signed this 4th day of August 1964. - - (S) Gary E. Taylor, - GARY E. TAYLOR. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF FRANCIS L. MARTELLO - -The following affidavit was executed by Francis L. Martello on July 31, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -I, Lt. Francis L. Martello, Police Headquarters, 2700 Tulane Avenue, -New Orleans, La., being first duly sworn, depose and say: - -1. I am a Lieutenant in the New Orleans Police Department. - -2. When a suspect is arrested, an arrest report is filled out. The -notations concerning the height and the weight of the suspect are the -figures supplied by him. - -3. When a suspect is booked, he is fingerprinted, photographed, weighed -and measured. Thus, the weight figure on the Bureau of Identification -Card would be the result of an actual weigh-in. - -Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at New Orleans, La. - - (S) Francis L. Martello, - Lieutenant FRANCIS L. MARTELLO. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN CORPORON - -The following affidavit was executed by John Corporon on July 29, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -John Corporon, being duly sworn, says: - -1. My name is John Corporon. I am and have been since at least August -1, 1963, head of the news department of WDSU-TV and radio, New Orleans. - -2. As such I am familiar with the programs broadcast over both WDSU-TV -and WDSU radio. - -3. Mr. William Stuckey has never had any TV or radio show known as -"Latin American Focus" on that station or, to the best of my knowledge, -any other radio or TV station. - -4. In August of 1963 Mr. Stuckey had a radio program called "Latin -Listening Post" which was broadcast some of the time over WDSU radio. - -5. Lee Harvey Oswald appeared briefly on Stuckey's radio program known -as "Latin Listening Post" on August 17, 1963. - -6. To the best of my knowledge Oswald never appeared on any other TV -or radio program in connection with Mr. Stuckey or any other program -either over radio or television in the City of New Orleans with the -exception of a radio program known as "Conversation Carte Blanche" on -which Oswald appeared on August 21, 1963 and on a brief TV news program -following the broadcast of "Conversation Carte Blanche" on that date. - -Signed this 29th day of July 1964. - - (S) John R. Corporon, - JOHN CORPORON. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. J. U. ALLEN - -The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. J. U. Allen on June 12, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF MISSISSIPPI, - _County of Claiborne, ss_: - -Mrs. J. U. Allen, Port Gibson, Claiborne County, State of Louisiana, -being duly sworn, says: - -1. I am secretary of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, a boys military academy -at Port Gibson, Mississippi, and I am in charge and custody of its -books and records. - -2. I have examined the records and files of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy -for the years 1945 through 1948, both inclusive, which are kept in the -regular and usual course of business under my supervision. It appears -from those records that John Edward Pic and Robert Lee Oswald, half -brothers and sons of Marguerite Oswald (and for a portion of the period -1945 through 1948 was Mrs. Edwin A. Ekdahl), entered Chamberlain-Hunt -Academy in September 1945, on transfer from Davy Crockett School in -Dallas, Texas. They continued as students during the school years -1945-1946, 1946-1947, and 1947-1948. Said records show that John Edward -Pic was transferred to Arlington Heights High School, Fort Worth, -Texas, in September 1948. The records do not show the school to which -Robert Lee Oswald was transferred at the end of the academic year -1947-1948. - -3. The Exhibits marked Chamberlain-Hunt Academy Exhibits Nos. 1 to -4[J] are Verifax copies of the records of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy -respecting the attendance of John Edward Pic and Robert Lee Oswald as -students at said Academy. Said Exhibits were prepared under my personal -supervision and direction. - -4. Included in the files of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy are various -items of correspondence. Chamberlain-Hunt Academy Exhibits Nos. 5 to -15 are true and correct Verifax & Thermofax copies of said items of -correspondence. The Verifax copies were prepared under my personal -supervision and direction. - -Signed this 12th day of June 1964. - - (S) Mrs. J. U. Allen, - Mrs. J. U. ALLEN. - - [J] Chamberlain-Hunt Academy Exhibits Nos. 1-15 were - subsequently relabeled Allen Exhibits Nos. 1-15, - respectively. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF LILLIAN MURRET - -The following affidavit was executed by Lillian Murret on June 3, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -Lillian Murret, being duly sworn, says: - -1. Affiant is the sister of Marguerite Claverie Oswald. - -2. In the month of May 1945, Marguerite Claverie Oswald sent affiant a -snapshot photograph of herself and her husband, Edwin A. Ekdahl, taken -on their marriage day, May 5, 1945. - -3. Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1 is the original of the aforesaid -snapshot photograph. Affiant recalls the physical appearances of her -sister Marguerite Claverie Oswald and of her newly wed husband Edwin -A. Ekdahl as of the year 1945. The lady pictured in the snapshot -photograph, which is Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1, is affiant's sister -Marguerite Claverie Oswald. The gentleman pictured in the photograph -(Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1) is Edwin A. Ekdahl, the husband of -Marguerite Claverie Oswald. The photograph is in each instance an -accurate and true photographic representation of Mr. and Mrs. Edwin A. -Ekdahl as they looked and appeared in May of 1945. - -4. Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1, when received by affiant in May -1945, bore on the reverse side the inscription or endorsement: "May -5th--Happy Though Married." Affiant is familiar with the handwriting -of her sister Marguerite Claverie Oswald. The aforesaid longhand -inscription on the reverse side of Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1 is in -the handwriting of affiant's sister Marguerite Claverie Oswald. - -5. Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1 is in the same condition now as it was -when received by affiant in May of 1945. - -Signed this 3d day of June 1964. - - (S) Mrs. Lillian Murret, - LILLIAN MURRET. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN W. BURCHAM - -The following affidavit was executed by John W. Burcham on June 19, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Travis, ss_: - -I, John W. Burcham, sometimes referred to as Jack W. Bucham, being duly -sworn, say: - -1. I am a resident of Austin, Texas, and am Chief of Unemployment -Insurance of the Texas Employment Commission at Austin, Texas. - -2. Burcham Exhibit No. 1, consisting of 63 pages, is a photostatic -copy of my report of November 26, 1963, respecting the interstate -unemployment compensation claim of Lee Harvey Oswald and of the various -claimant payment records and documents described in said report. - -3. Burcham Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3 have been personally examined by -me. From my knowledge of procedures and operations of the Insurance -Department of the Texas Employment Commission, Burcham Exhibit No. 2 -appears to me to be the copy of the Form B-12 mailed to L. H. Oswald -by the Texas Employment Commission on April 16, 1963, and Burcham -Exhibit No. 3 appears to be the document mailed by the Texas Employment -Commission along with the final payment mailed to L. H. Oswald -notifying him this was his last payment. - -Signed this 19th day of June 1964. - - (S) John W. Burcham, - JOHN W. BURCHAM. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF EMMETT CHARLES BARBE, JR. - -The following affidavit was executed by Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr., on -June 15, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr. of New Orleans, La., being duly sworn, says: - -1. I am employed by William B. Reily Company, Inc., as Maintenance -Foreman. The William B. Reily Company plant is located at 640 Magazine -Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. I have been employed by that Company -for five years. During the year 1963 I was serving as Maintenance -Foreman. - -2. William B. Reily Company is engaged in the roasting, grinding, -canning, bagging, and sale of coffee. In its roasting, grinding, -canning, and bagging operations a great deal of machinery consisting -of chains, conveyer belts, motors, blowers, automatic hoppers, -grinders, etc., distributed over some five floors of the premises is -employed in said operations. Said machinery must be kept well greased -and oiled. This work required the full time of one man. - -3. Lee Harvey Oswald became employed by William B. Reily Company, -Inc. as a greaser and oiler maintenance man on May 10, 1963. His -employment terminated on July 19, 1963. During the latter portion of -his employment, I served as his immediate supervisor. As his supervisor -I was aware of Oswald's performance or lack thereof of his duties. - -4. There were occasions from time to time when I was unable to locate -Oswald in and about the premises and learned that he was in the habit -of absenting himself from the premises without leave and visiting a -service station establishment adjacent to the Reily Coffee Company -known as Alba's Crescent City Garage. Furthermore, Oswald had become -quite indifferent to the performance of his duties. I spoke with him -from time to time about his absences and his indifferences, all to -no avail. Ultimately I recommended to my superiors that Oswald be -discharged. My request was granted and he was discharged on July 19, -1963. - -Signed this 15th day of June 1964. - - (S) Emmett Charles Barbe, Jr. - EMMETT CHARLES BARBE, Jr. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF HILDA L. SMITH - -The following affidavit was executed by Hilda L. Smith on June 15, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -I, Hilda L. Smith, 1205 St. Charles, Apartment 813, New Orleans, La., -being first duly sworn, depose and say: - -1. That I was employed by the Louisiana Labor Department, Division of -Employment Security, Employment Service, and Unemployment Compensation, -630 Camp Street, New Orleans 12, Louisiana, on April 29 and April 30, -1963. - -2. I interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald when he applied for his initial -Interstate Claim. - -3. I recall that when I interviewed him, he was very evasive. He was -very abrupt and I considered him unusual. I only saw him this one time -since others handled his Continued Interstate Claim. - -4. The signature appearing on the attached Interstate Claim, labelled -Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit No. 2 is my signature.[K] - -Signed this 15th day of June 1964. - - (S) Hilda L. Smith, - HILDA L. SMITH. - - [K] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit No. 2 was - subsequently relabeled as Smith Exhibit No. 1. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF J. RACHAL - -The following affidavit was executed by J. Rachal on June 22, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -J. Rachal, of New Orleans, La., being duly sworn says: - -1. My name is J. Rachal. I am now and have for a number of years -past been employed by the Louisiana Department of Labor, Division of -Employment Security, Professional Unit. - -2. In my capacity as Placement Interviewer in the Professional Unit -of the Louisiana State Employment Security Division of the Louisiana -Department of Labor, I had occasion to become acquainted with one Lee -Harvey Oswald. I recall his being in my office and at my desk on April -26, 1963, which was his initial visit. - -3. At that time Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit number 1[L] was -filled out, in part by Mr. Oswald and in part by me. Said Exhibit -number 1 is the Registration Card so made out by Lee Harvey Oswald and -myself, recording Oswald's registration as an unemployed worker who had -come from Texas and was seeking employment in New Orleans. - -4. The hand-printing, with the exception of the block entitled "Skills, -Knowledge, Abilities, and Experience," and the notations in the block -entitled "Special information and employment counseling statement," and -the letters "RIF" in the upper right-hand corner of the inside face -of Exhibit number 1, is that of the applicant, Lee Harvey Oswald. The -writing other than that of Lee Harvey Oswald is that of affiant. The -signature appearing at the foot of the inside face of Exhibit number 1 -is that of affiant. Exhibit number 1 is part of the books and records -of the aforesaid Division of Employment Security of the Louisiana -Department of Labor, kept in the usual and regular course of business. - -5. Exhibit number 1 reflects that Lee Harvey Oswald first called at -the Unemployment Division on April 26, 1963, and at that time was -interviewed by me and supplied the personal data and prior employment -and experience facts recited on Exhibit No. 1. - -6. Upon noting that Oswald had listed Photographer as one of his -skills, I telephonically contacted the George Reppel Studio, 5220 -Elysian Fields, to determine if they needed the services of a -photographer. Upon learning that they could employ the services of a -photographer, I directed Oswald to report to that company for possible -employment, and I recorded that reference on the reverse side of -Exhibit number 1. A few days later I recontacted the studio and learned -that Oswald had not appeared there. - -7. Exhibit number 1 also reflects the fact that on April 29, 1963, -Oswald again reported to the Unemployment Compensation Office at 630 -Camp Street, which is the claims office, and filed an interstate claim -against the State of Texas for unemployment compensation. This was a -reactivation of his claim. I had learned from my earlier interview that -Oswald had therefore been employed for relatively short periods of time -at Fort Worth, Texas, and Dallas, Texas. The letters "RIF" appearing -in the upper right-hand corner of Exhibit number 1 are an abbreviation -for the words "Reduction in Force." The presence of those letters on -Exhibit number 1 means that Oswald advised me that the reason for -his termination of employment at Jaggars, Chiles, Stovall of Dallas, -Texas, was a reduction in force, a prerequisite to a valid claim for -unemployment compensation. - -8. I recall that Oswald was neatly dressed with a suit, dress shirt, -and tie on the occasion of our initial interview. On July 22, 1963, he -was more casually dressed. - -9. Oswald returned after the April 29, 1963, visit to our office on -July 22, 1963. Between the April 29 and July 22 dates, the application -card had been green-lined in the right hand column either because the -applicant had not come in in four weeks or his claim had been cancelled -or terminated sometime during that period. Sometime subsequent to July -22, 1963, Oswald's application card was again green-lined for one of -the two reasons above stated. This application card is marked Exhibit -number 1. - -10. I recall that Oswald returned some time, either late in July or -the forepart of August 1963, seeking employment assistance. In the -meantime, the incident involving the Fair Play for Cuba Committee had -come to my attention. I had seen Oswald on a television broadcast -showing him distributing Fair Play for Cuba handbills. There was -reference in the broadcast to his having lived in Russia, marrying -a Russian girl, and returning to this country. I discussed the -matter with my supervisor, Miss Hope Kristofferson. As a result, it -was determined that we should not undertake to furnish employment -references for him. This was the last contact I had with Mr. Oswald. - -11. Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit numbers 10 and 11[M] are also -records of the Division of Employment Security of the Department of -Labor of Louisiana in New Orleans. The forms themselves are identical -with Exhibit number 1, and the recorded information is substantially -identical with the information set forth in Exhibit number 1. Exhibits -numbers 10 and 11 were prepared in another section of my Division and -reflect the fact that on May 28, 1963, Oswald was referred to Commerce -Pictures Company of New Orleans for possible employment as a developer, -and the initials "NR" appearing in green crayon on the reverse side of -Exhibit number 10 reflect the fact that Oswald did not report to the -Commerce Picture Company. Serial number 259 appearing under the heading -"Remarks" on the same line on which the green crayoned letters "NR" -appear means that the unemployed person failed to respond and that his -unemployment compensation would be delayed one week to make further -determination of the applicant's status. - -12. Inasmuch as Oswald was an interstate claimant and the libel was -against the State of Texas, his weekly appearances for the purposes -of keeping his interstate claim alive were furnished to the Texas -Employment Commission in Austin, Texas, and they in turn would issue an -unemployment check which would be mailed directly to Oswald. Oswald's -weekly appearances at our office were recorded on Form 1-B-2. - -Signed this 22d day of June 1964. - - (S) John Russell Rachal, - J. RACHAL. - - [L] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit No. 1 was - subsequently relabeled Rachal Exhibit No. 1. - - [M] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 10 and 11 - were subsequently relabeled Rachal Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3, - respectively. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF BOBB HUNLEY - -The following affidavit was executed by Bobb Hunley on June 16, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -I, Bobb Hunley, employed by the Louisiana Labor Department, Division of -Employment Security, Employment Service, and Unemployment Compensation, -630 Camp Street, New Orleans 12, La., being first duly sworn, depose -and say: - -1. That I recall handling Lee Harvey Oswald's Interstate Claims at the -Division of Employment Security office. - -2. Generally there is a line of claimants with their IB-2 forms which -they have previously filled out. I sign them and fill in blanks four -through eight. - -3. I recall nothing unusual about Lee Harvey Oswald. He usually wore a -T-shirt and light windbreaker. - -4. We do not check to see if the claimant has contacted the places -listed in item 14 of the IB-2 form. Thus, I have no knowledge of -whether Oswald contacted the employers he listed. - -5. The signatures appearing on the attached Interstate Claims, labelled -as Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9, and -the Interstate Request for Recommendation of Monetary Determination, -Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit Nos. 3 and 6 are my signatures.[N] - -Signed this 16th day of June 1964. - - (S) Bobb W. Hunley, - BOBB HUNLEY. - - [N] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 4-9 were - subsequently relabeled Hunley Exhibits Nos. 1-7, - respectively. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT J. CREEL - -The following affidavit was executed by Robert J. Creel on June 26, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF LOUISIANA, - _Parish of Orleans, ss_: - -Robert J. Creel, of New Orleans, La., being duly sworn, says: - -1. My name is Robert J. Creel. I am employed by the State of Louisiana, -Department of Labor, Division of Employment Security, Employment -Service and Unemployment Compensation, 630 Camp Street, New Orleans, -Louisiana, and have been so employed since prior to the year 1962. - -2. I am familiar with the records and documents maintained by said -Division of Employment Security. - -3. The several Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 12 through -19,[O] both inclusive, which have been submitted to me and which I have -examined are either original or exact copies of records of the State -of Louisiana, Department of Labor, Division of Employment Security, -Unemployment Insurance Service, maintained by it in the usual and -regular course of business. Said exhibits relate to the interstate -claim of Lee Harvey Oswald against the State of Texas, and record the -investigation and disposition of said claim by the State of Louisiana -and the State of Texas. - -Signed this 26th day of June, 1964. - - (S) Robert J. Creel, - ROBERT J. CREEL. - - [O] Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 12-19 - were subsequently relabeled Creel Exhibits Nos. 1-8, - respectively. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF HELEN P. CUNNINGHAM - -The following affidavit was executed by Helen P. Cunningham on June 11, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -Mrs. Helen P. Cunningham, being duly sworn, says: - -1. I am in the employ of the Texas Employment Commission as an -Employment Counselor. As appears from my deposition I had occasion in -my official capacity to counsel with Lee Harvey Oswald. I am familiar -with the official books and records of the Texas Employment Commission -maintained at its Dallas, Texas, office. Cunningham Exhibit No. 4 is -the original copy of the Counseling Record Card which was prepared in -the course of and in connection with the counseling service rendered by -me. - -2. All of the handwriting appearing on both sides of the Counseling -Record Card is in my hand and consists of entries made by me at the -time I interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald on October 9 and 10, 1962. The -entries under the portion of the exhibit entitled "Counselor's Notes" -reflect that Oswald was referred on October 10, 1962, for a position -at Harrell and Huntington, architects, for a position as messenger at -$1.50 an hour, and thereafter to Jaggars Printing for a position as -photo-printing trainee at $1.35 an hour. The entry "10-15-62" on the -face of the Counseling Record Card reflects the fact that Oswald had -obtained employment at Jaggars Printing and that the case was closed -successfully. - -3. On the face of the card is reflected the fact that Mr. Don -Brooks, Counselor in the Industrial Division of the Texas Employment -Commission, interviewed Oswald previous to October 9, 10 and 11, 1962. - -4. As it appears from the entries in my hand on the reverse side of -Cunningham Exhibit No. 4, I recorded the fact that I obtained Oswald's -"General Aptitude Test" battery results from the Fort Worth office of -the Texas Employment Commission. I concluded after examining the GATB -obtained from the Fort Worth office and after interviewing Oswald that -because he was in great financial need for immediate employment, that -I should classify him for clerical work and I noted on the face of the -card the proper clerical code, being 1-X 4.9. I also recorded the fact -that on October 11, 1962, Oswald was referred to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall -Printing Company as a photo-print trainee and that Oswald was -enthusiastic about the possibility of his being employed. I also -recorded the fact that Oswald reported on October 15, 1962, that he had -obtained the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall position and that he was pleased. - -5. In my counseling with Oswald and as appears from my entry under the -heading "Other Plans" Oswald told me that he hoped to develop through a -work-study program at Dallas College or Arlington State qualification -for responsible junior executive employment but that this must be -delayed because of his and his family's immediate financial needs and -responsibilities. - -6. The notation "D. Brooks" appearing on the face of Cunningham Exhibit -No. 4 refers to Don Brooks, who is identified above; my signature -appears to the right of the notation of Mr. Brooks' name. I wrote "D. -Brooks" name on the face of Cunningham Exhibit No. 4. - -7. Cunningham Exhibits 1-A, 2-A and 3-A are, respectively, originals of -Cunningham Exhibits 1, 2 and 3. - -8. The green-ink entry on the facing side of Cunningham Exhibit No. -1-A, "10-30-62", means that on that date it was confirmed that Oswald -was employed. The succeeding entry being "4-8-63" records the fact that -Oswald came to the Commission on that date, seeking employment; he -having lost his position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. The succeeding -entry "4-12-63" records the fact that Oswald visited the Commission -offices in further pursuit of employment. The succeeding entry, which -is in green crayon, "5-8-63" when considered with the entry dated -"5-3-63" in the referral section of the exhibit, records the fact that -on that day Oswald was mailed a call-in card for possible referral to -Texas Power and Light Company for a position as meter reader but failed -to respond. The next entry on the face of Cunningham Exhibit No. 1-A -which is "Ri-10-3-63" records the fact that his case was reactivated as -of that date and the final entry "10-17-63" in green crayon records the -closing of his case due to his having obtained employment. This entry -is related to the final entry in the referral section of Cunningham -Exhibit No. 1-A which recites under the heading "Remarks" that at 10:30 -a.m. on October 16, 1963, it was ascertained by Robert L. Adams that -Oswald had obtained employment. - -Signed this 11th day of June 1964. - - (S) Helen P. Cunningham, - HELEN P. CUNNINGHAM. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF THEODORE FRANK GANGL - -The following affidavit was executed by Theodore Frank Gangl on June -16, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Theodore Frank Gangl, 7903 Mohawk Drive, Dallas, Tex., being duly -sworn, depose and say: - -1. That I am Plant Superintendent for the Padgett Printing Corporation, -1313 North Industrial, Dallas, Texas. - -2. On October 4, 1963, I interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald, who had applied -for employment in response to an advertisement the Padgett Printing -Corporation placed in the local newspaper. We were seeking a typesetter -in the composing room. - -3. Oswald was well dressed and neat. He made a favorable impression on -the foreman of the department to whom I introduced Oswald. Since Oswald -had worked in a trade plant I was interested in him as a possible -employee. - -4. Oswald filled out the application. Padgett Printing Corporation -Exhibit No. 1[P] is a photostatic copy of the original application -which was filled in during the course of my interview with Oswald. The -original application was prepared and maintained among the records of -Padgett Printing Corporation in the usual and regular course of its -business. The exhibit is a copy of the application as it was when it -was completed by me on or about October 4, 1963. It is entirely in -Oswald's handwriting except for my initials in the blank, "Interviewed -by", the date, the word "over", and the handwriting on the reverse -side, all of which are in my handwriting. - -5. Oswald said he could be reached at the Irving, Texas, phone number -he listed on the application, and he suggested particular periods of -the week he would most likely be available to respond to a telephone -call. - -6. Shortly after the interview, I called Mr. Stovall at -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, where Oswald had previously worked. Mr. -Stovall was not there, so I spoke with somebody who had worked with -Oswald there. He implied that Oswald's fellow employees did not like -him because he was propagandizing and had been seen reading a foreign -newspaper. - -7. I later talked with Mr. Robert Stovall, who is a friend of mine, and -he said Oswald could not get along there and he could not adapt himself -to the type of work assigned to him. - -8. As a result of this conversation I wrote the comments that appear on -the back of the application and decided that we would not hire him. - -9. I called Oswald at the Irving, Texas, telephone number he had -written on the application and told him that we had hired somebody with -better qualifications. - -Signed this 16th day of June 1964. - - (S) Theo. F. Gangl, - THEODORE F. GANGL. - - [P] Padgett Printing Corp. Exhibit No. 1 was subsequently - relabeled Gangl Exhibit No. 1. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF GENE GRAVES - -The following affidavit was executed by Gene Graves on June 16, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Tarrent, ss_: - -My name is Gene Graves and I am employed as a secretary with the Leslie -Welding Co., Inc., 200 E-North Vacek, Fort Worth, Tex. - -I certify that the attached copies[Q] of time cards of Lee Harvey -Oswald are true and correct. - -Signed this 16th day of June 1964. - - (S) Gene Graves, - GENE GRAVES. - - [Q] These attachments were subsequently relabeled Graves - Exhibit No. 1. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT L. ADAMS - -The following affidavit was executed by Robert L. Adams on August 4, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Robert L. Adams, being duly sworn, say: - -1. I am now, and during all of the year 1963 was an employee of the -Texas Employment Commission as an employment interviewer. As appears -from my deposition, I had occasion, during the month of October, 1963, -to refer Lee Harvey Oswald to several employment opportunities that had -come to the attention of the Texas Employment Commission. - -2. I am familiar with the official books and records of the Texas -Employment Commission maintained at its Dallas, Texas, office. -Cunningham Exhibit 1-A is the original of the Texas Employment -Commission employment, application, counseling, and referral card or -record, familiarly known as an "E-13," respecting Lee Harvey Oswald. -It was prepared and maintained in the usual course of the business -and services rendered by the Texas Employment Commission. The entries -thereon are true and correct. - -3. Cunningham Exhibit 1-A is a single-fold card. The last three -lines of entries on the lower portion of the inside (when folded) of -Cunningham Exhibit 1-A are in my hand. All of those entries were made -by me. - -4. At the time that my deposition was taken, I did not have before me -either Cunningham Exhibit 1-A or a copy or duplicate thereof. However, -since that time I have had an opportunity to examine Cunningham Exhibit -1-A. This has served to refresh my recollection of my contacts with Lee -Harvey Oswald and the job employment opportunity references which I -made for him on October 7, 9, and 15, 1963. - -5. As appears from the last three sets of entries in my hand on the -lower portion of the inside pages of Cunningham Exhibit 1-A: - -(a) On October 7, 1963, the Texas Employment Commission had on hand -an order from the Solid State Electronics Company of Texas for a -sales clerk at an indicated compensation of $350 per month, for -permanent employment, for which they desired the Commission to refer an -applicant. On that day I called BL3-1628, which is the telephone number -in Irving, Texas, that appears on the face of Cunningham Exhibit 1-A. I -was told that Oswald was not in. I left a message with the person who -answered, requesting that Mr. Oswald contact me. The entry "Left MSG to -call under the column headed "Remarks" is my notation of the fact that -I made the telephone call and left the message on October 7, as I have -just stated. Oswald contacted me the next day either by telephone or -in person in the Commission offices. My present recollection does not -serve me to say which. I had in the meantime contacted the prospective -employer and discussed with him the matter of Oswald's qualifications -for the position they had in mind. As a result of that conversation, -I had received authority to send Oswald for an interview. Since I had -authority to refer Oswald, I did not call the prospective employer -again, but sent Oswald directly. Accordingly, the word "Direct," which -I wrote in the column headed "Remarks," records that fact. Later that -day I personally checked with Solid State Electronics Company of Texas -and was advised that Oswald had followed through on my job reference, -had been interviewed, but had not been hired. The initials "NH" that -appear under the column headed "Results" mean "Not Hired." I made that -entry when I learned that Oswald had responded to the job opportunity -but had not been hired. - -(b) On October 9, 1963, I referred Oswald on a clerk trainee job -opportunity at $1.25 an hour with the Burton-Dixie Company of -Dallas. I made this reference directly, that is, while he was in the -Texas Employment Commission offices. Later that day I checked with -Burton-Dixie Company and learned that Oswald had responded to the -reference but had not been hired. The word "Direct" appearing under -the column headed "Remarks" is my recording of the fact that I referred -Oswald directly to the employer on this order. - -(c) On October 15, 1963, I was advised by Mr. Roy of Trans Texas -Airways that the company was contemplating expansion and that he would -need possibly as many as twelve or fourteen ramp agents, as they -are called by the airlines industry; we call them baggage or cargo -handlers. He advised me of the minimum qualifications and asked me to -send out job applicants who met them. He advised that the salary was -$310 per month and that the employment was permanent. Oswald was one of -the possible applicants whom I referred for interview on this order. -My best recollection is that on that day I called the BL3-1628 Irving, -Texas, telephone number listed on the face of Cunningham Exhibit 1-A. -I learned from the person who answered the phone that Oswald was not -there. I left a message with that person that Oswald should contact -me at the Commission. My further recollection is that the following -morning at 10:30 o'clock I again called the BL3-1628 Irving, Texas, -number and learned from the person who answered that Oswald was not -there and that he had in the meantime obtained employment and was -working. I thereupon made the entry, appearing in the column headed -"Remarks," which reads: "Working 10:30 A 10-16 RLA," in order to record -the information I had received as a result of my telephone call. On the -following day, October 17, 1963, I "green dated" the face of Cunningham -Exhibit 1-A. This means, as appears from the face of Cunningham Exhibit -1-A, that I entered in green crayon the date October 17, 1963, which is -our way of recording the fact that the applicant is no longer available -for employment. The initials "NR" appearing under the column headed -"Results" mean "Non-report" or, in other words, that the man referred -on the job application did not report. I included that designation -under the column headed "Results" as a result of the information I -received when I made the foregoing telephone call at 10:30 in the -morning of October 16, 1963. Inasmuch as I did not talk with Oswald -either by telephone or in person in connection with this job order, I -do not know whether he was ever advised of this referral, but under the -circumstances I do not see how he could have been. - -Signed this 4th day of August 1964. - - (S) Robert L Adams, - ROBERT L. ADAMS. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF IVAN D. LEE - -The following affidavit was executed by Ivan D. Lee on June 1, 1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - STATE OF TEXAS, - _County of Dallas, ss_: - -I, Ivan D. Lee, being duly sworn, depose as follows: - -In my performance of duties as a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation, I was assigned to take photographs of the rear of Major -Edwin A. Walker's residence at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard, Dallas, -Texas. - -On February 1, 1964, accompanied by Special Agent W. James Wood, I -proceeded to the alley area located behind the residence of Major -General Walker and took photographs from an automobile of the Federal -Bureau of Investigation proceeding slowly through the alleyway. These -photographs were taken at approximately 10:00 a.m. on February 1, 1964. -At approximately 10:30 a.m., I returned to the area on foot and took -two photographs, looking south by southwest down the alleyway behind -Major General Walker's residence toward Avondale Street, Dallas. After -returning to the Bureau automobile, we proceeded through the alley -once again at approximately 10:45 a.m. and took another photograph -of the rear of the residence of Major General Edwin A. Walker. At -approximately 11:15 a.m. another trip was made through the alley and -another photograph was taken of the rear of the residence of Major -General Edwin A. Walker. - -Photographs numbered on the back as DL 36[R] depict rear views of the -residence of Major General Edwin A. Walker, and is the same residence -as depicted in Commission exhibit number 5 and marked as FBI inventory -number 369. Photographs numbered as DL 35[S] depict the alleyway -looking south by southwest from the Church of Jesus Christ Latter -Day Saints parking lot which is located adjacent to and north of the -property of Major General Edwin A. Walker. In the left hand side of the -photographs of the alleyway, a driveway is noted, which is the driveway -leading to the back of Major General Edwin A. Walker's residence. - -I used a Federal Bureau of Investigation owned 35 millimeter Robot -camera in taking the above photographs. - -Signed this 1st day of June 1964, at Dallas, Tex. - - (S) Ivan D. Lee, - IVAN D. LEE. - - [R] This photograph was labeled Ivan Lee Exhibit A. - - [S] This photograph was labeled Ivan Lee Exhibit B. - - - - -AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES D. CROWLEY - -The following affidavit was executed by James D. Crowley on June 12, -1964. - - - AFFIDAVIT - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE ASSASSINATION OF - PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_: - -James D. Crowley, being duly sworn, deposes and says: - -On August 13, 1961, he was duly appointed an officer in the Department -of State, as a specialist in intelligence matters; that he has -continued to serve in that capacity since that time, and that he has -personal knowledge of the matters related in this affidavit: - -1. I am one of the officers in the Department of State responsible for -disseminating throughout the Department various reports, memoranda -and documents which are received from other United States Government -agencies. - -2. The first time I remember learning of Oswald's existence was when I -received copies of a telegraphic message, dated October 10, 1963, from -the Central Intelligence Agency, which contained information pertaining -to his current activities. I requested that a search of the Office -of Security records be made on October 11, 1963, to determine if the -Department had received any information previously. Based on a quick -review of the Office of Security file on Oswald, I disseminated copies -of the Central Intelligence Agency message to the various offices -within the Department which were interested in receiving this type of -material. - -3. I also briefly reviewed Oswald's Office of Security file on November -14, 1963. Although I am not certain, I believe the impetus for this -review was either my receipt of a Federal Bureau of Investigation -report dated October 31, 1963 on Lee Harvey Oswald or my receipt -of a Federal Bureau of Investigation report dated October 25, 1963 -on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee--New Orleans Division. Both of -these reports were received in the Intelligence Processing Section on -November 8, 1963. - -4. In both instances, I reviewed the Office of Security file in a -routine manner and had it returned to the Office of Security File Room -the same day in which it was charged to me. - -Signed this 12th day of June 1964. - - (S) James D. Crowley, - JAMES D. CROWLEY. - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -In the source for this Volume, the name "De Mohrenschildt" sometimes -is printed in quoted material or Affidavits as "de Mohrenschildt" -or "deMohrenschildt", and all variations have been retained here. -In another Volume, which contained testimony from Mr. and Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt, "De" always was capitalized and was a separate word. - -Footnotes have been repositioned to immediately follow the Affidavits -or other information that reference them. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -The Preface and Contents refer to "Mrs. J. V. Allen" but the name in her -Affidavit is "Mrs. J. U. Allen". None of these were changed here. - -Page 67: "enclosed is an envelope" probably should be "in". - -Page 70: "Mr. Pic. Is just a letter marked Exhibit No. 34." is a -misprint for "Mr. Jenner." - -Page 94: "merely to with the argument" probably should be "to win". - -Page 212: "Out Intourist Guide's name" was printed that way. - -Page 282: "ribbons in here hair" was printed that way. - -Page 288: "I wasn't in her being down there at the time." was printed -that way. - -Page 301: "The testimony of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson was taken" was -misprinted with the initial "A" instead of "D"; changed here for -consistency with other instances. - -Page 373: "put an Americano came too" possibly should be "name". - -Page 437: "from a 22 caliber rifle" was printed without a period -before "22". - -Page 439: "carlot" was printed that way. - -Page 473: "Jack W. Bucham" was printed with that way, not as "Burcham". - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings -Vol. XI (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V11 *** - -***** This file should be named 44011.txt or 44011.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/1/44011/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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